Podcasts about knowledge work

There are roughly 100x more people who use code than who can write code. As code that “just works” becomes easier to generate, this group may be the biggest prize of all — if you can get the agentic interface right.A key trend we have been tracking over at AINews is the absolute explosion in Codex usage this year, with MAU now up >10x from Jan 2026. Less than two weeks after their July 9th launch, OpenAI said ChatGPT Work and Codex had reached 10M users combined (as we cover in the pod, Codex now powers ChatGPT Work, so all ChatGPT Work users are now users of the Codex harness, even if they aren't traditional engineers) — showing the early innings of what happens when you graduate from coding agents to knowledge work agents:We've been calling out how coding agents are “breaking containment” to do everything else this year to power every other part of knowledge work - and it started with the org chart, with a major reorg last month that amounted to two of Codex's most prominent leaders, Greg and Tibo, taking responsibility over product and ChatGPT specifically, completing a “Superapp” consolidation cycle first discussed in March.With these updates Codex is no longer just a coding tool. In June, OpenAI said knowledge workers already accounting for roughly 20% of Codex's user base and growing more than 3x as quickly as developers. A product dedicated for knowledge workers was being pulled out of the Codex team.However, knowledge work has a different set of problems and environments than coding. For decades, knowledge work has been scattered across different primitives like documents for writing, spreadsheets for analysis, slide decks for communication, and specialized applications for everything else. ChatGPT Work now enables users to work across every primitive with agents. Instead of opening an application and manually operating its features, the user can describe an outcome and collaborates with an agent that can assemble the tools, context, and artifact needed to reach it.From building no-code products at Airtable to leading Productivity Engineering at OpenAI, Akshay Nathan has spent much of his career trying to make the power of software accessible to people who do not write code. In this episode, Akshay joins swyx and Vibhu to unpack the launch of ChatGPT Work, why Codex unexpectedly took off among non-developers inside OpenAI, and the company's broader plan to bring useful agents from software engineers to knowledge workers and eventually everyone.We go deep on the shared agent harness behind Codex and ChatGPT Work, why OpenAI brought the experiences together without making them identical, and how persistent computers, artifacts, Sites, plugins, memory, and sub-agents are changing what people can delegate to AI. Akshay explains why some teams are replacing decks and spreadsheets with interactive websites, how agents can gather context across code, Slack, documents, and local files, and what OpenAI learned from personal-agent products like OpenClaw.Side note: also don't miss Abhihek's sandbox track keynote at AIE, which now powers a lot of the sandboxing for ChatGPT Work… and yes was also broken by an unreleased OpenAI model in the recent HuggingFace incident.Akshay also reflects on how AI is transforming product development itself: why more people will become generalists with a specialty, why ideas and taste become the bottlenecks when almost anyone can build, why LLMs still struggle to generate genuinely grounded new ideas, and why teams must distinguish increased motion from actual progress.We discuss:* Why Codex unexpectedly took off among non-developers inside OpenAI* Why employees felt like using Codex gave them a new superpower* The product insight that led OpenAI to build ChatGPT Work* Why Codex and ChatGPT Work share the same underlying agent harness* How their UX, Git visibility, artifacts, and sandboxing defaults differ* Why OpenAI merged its agent experiences instead of building separate products* How AI is blurring the boundaries between engineering, design, strategy, and operations* Why OpenAI wants the default model configuration to work for most users* When power users should use deeper reasoning, Ultra, or multi-agent modes* Artifacts, agentic spreadsheets, and creating high-fidelity work products* Why interactive Sites may replace decks and spreadsheets* The challenge of designing a simple interface for an agent that can build almost anything* Why users should retry tasks that models could not handle three or six months ago* How AI can gather context for performance reviews without replacing human judgment* The OpenAI automation that turns internal Slack and document activity into memes* What reaching ten million ChatGPT Work and Codex users means for the product* How OpenClaw inspired persistent environments, scheduled tasks, and personal agents* Using ChatGPT for financial planning, budgeting, workouts, meals, and household management* The design tradeoffs behind sub-agents and how much of their work users should see* ChatGPT memory, Chronicle, and long-term context* Why AI may make more people generalists with deep specialties* Why ideas and taste become more important when almost anyone can build* Why LLMs still struggle with the instruction “bring me new ideas”* Measuring productivity through quality at-bats instead of commits, tokens, or pull requests* The critical difference between AI-generated motion and meaningful progressAkshay Nathan* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/akshaynathan/* X: https://x.com/akshaynathan_Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction and Bringing the Power of Code to Everyone00:01:33 Joining OpenAI and Preserving a Startup Culture00:02:40 What OpenAI Learned from Enterprise AI Adoption00:05:28 Why OpenAI Built ChatGPT Work00:07:17 Codex vs. ChatGPT Work and the Shared Agent Harness00:12:07 Why OpenAI Merged Its Agent Experiences00:16:24 Models, Reasoning Levels, and Choosing the Right Default00:20:26 Artifacts, Agentic Spreadsheets, and Model–Product Collaboration00:24:22 Why Sites Could Replace Decks and Spreadsheets00:30:08 Designing an Agent That Can Build Almost Anything00:34:28 From Developer Agents to Knowledge Work—and Everyone00:36:07 Power-User Advice and AI-Assisted Performance Reviews00:40:41 OpenAI's Internal AI Memes and the Ten-Million-User Launch00:44:39 OpenClaw, Personal Agents, and ChatGPT as an Operating System00:50:24 Sub-Agents, Ultra Mode, and How Much Control Users Need00:54:39 ChatGPT Memory, Personalization, and Chronicle01:00:19 How AI Is Reshaping Product Development and Tech Roles01:03:15 Ideas, Taste, and Why LLMs Struggle to Generate New Ideas01:04:42 Measuring Productivity, Quality At-Bats, and Motion vs. ProgressTranscriptIntroduction: Akshay Nathan, ChatGPT Work, and the No-Code ArcSwyx [00:00:00]: We're here in the studio with Akshay from OpenAI. Welcome.Akshay Nathan [00:00:07]: Thank you.Swyx [00:00:08]: And with our trusty co-host, Vibhu. So you recently launched ChatGPT Work. You lead Core Product Engineering. It's been a long journey, into all this. I find it very interesting that you started with no code or low code, with Walrus and Airtable. And to some extent, ChatGPT Work is like the super app of super apps of, well, here is the ultimate no code. You just write a prompt.Akshay Nathan [00:00:32]: Yeah. It's funny how things come, full circle. I think for a long time in my career, I started my career working consumer fintech, but then after that, like, there's this hypothesis that, the things that we were able to do with code, like, as engineers, like, if we could bring that to many more people in a more, accessible way, then that would be truly magical. We were working on a startup. It's funny, like, before LLMs, before vision LLMs, on how to do automated testing with AI. It was just kinda jank, back then, but doing what we can, and then worked at Airtable for a while on the same thesis that, like, if we can bring a database or the primitives behind a database to people, that'd be really useful to them. But once LLMs came onto the scene, it became clear that, this was the missing piece, like, the missing technology required to, like, bring the magic of code to everyone without them having to know what's going on underneath the hood. And so, like, I think this launch and a lot of the stuff that we've been up to is, like, the manifestation of that.From Walrus and Airtable to OpenAIVibhu [00:01:33]: How was stuff when you joined? So you joined OpenAI 2023. Now we've got, so much more stuff, so ChatGPT, Codex app, ChatGPT Work. Have things changed?Joining OpenAI and What Hasn't ChangedAkshay Nathan [00:01:44]: I think the more interesting thing is how things haven't changed. Like, one, I joined I remember when I joined, it was, like, five hundred people. One thing I was worried about was, like, I was looking for something, more early stage and, like, was it gonna feel startup enough? And I joined, and I was like, “This feels even more startup-y than I could ever imagine.” And, like, that really hasn't changed even till now. I think the, like, level of, like, bottoms-up ambition and, like, the ability of anyone to, like, do anything or have an idea and ship it is really cool. But on the, like, mission side, I think what was really compelling to me is this mission of, bringing frontier intelligence to everyone. Like, building AGI and then bringing it to everyone. And, I think acknowledging back then that, like, that vision is gonna, not be a linear progression. Like, we're probably gonna, like, try different products and have different things that succeed and don't. But the vision has stayed the same, and the mission has stayed the same, and we're starting to see the pieces, fall together, and that's really cool.Enterprise Lessons: No One-Size-Fits-All AISwyx [00:02:40]: You worked on Enterprise. What A lot of people never touch ChatGPT Enterprise. What is something that you learned from there that you're bringing into your work now?Akshay Nathan [00:02:52]: I think how there's no one-size-fits-all solution in Enterprise. I remember in the early days of ChatGPT Enterprise, like, when we talked to customers and, like, everyone. That was, like, when I think it was a year after ChatGPT was released, and everyone was so excited to bring, AI into their enterprise. And, there were all these teams being stood up. It was, like, the AI deployment team with, like, these enormous budgets. And if you asked anyone, like, what were they excited about? Like, what were they excited about solving? Like, at first, you'd get, like, kinda like the baseline answers of, like, “Yeah, we have all this context and data and all this stuff.” But then if you ask them, like, “What was, like, a discrete use case that, like, they want AI to enable in their workplace?” You get such a different, like, variance, like, explosion of, different types of answers. And it's interesting, like, you using, like, these models and these products, you have this box, and you can say anything to it, which is the magic. But it'on the flip side, it also means that, like, you don't know what to do with it. And in Enterprise, I think a big part of that is, like, meeting the users where they are, like, what use case were they trying to solve, and then teaching them how they can use AI to, like, gain leverage there.Swyx [00:03:56]: Do you meaningfully differentiate that from forward-deployed engineering?Akshay Nathan [00:04:01]: I think there is the go-to-market side of it and then there is the product side of it. I think you need someone on the product side. And I think, like, however good we get at FDE motion, like, I think at the end of the day, if we have a user who's, like, looking at their computer or looking at their phone, like, it's our job in the product to, like, be enabling them and showing them where to go. So we're really excited about that.Vibhu [00:04:24]: Do you think there's been changes, over the past three years of adoption? So there have been, step function changes. You have reasoning models and whatnot. Is there still the same problems of Enterprise has black box, don't know what to do with it, or have things changed?Adoption, Agents, and the Next 10x MarketAkshay Nathan [00:04:39]: We're seeing now that, like, there's this huge uptake, right? Everyone is extremely excited about it. It feels like, many people are, millions, hundreds of millions of people are using ChatGPT. They understand, like, how generally to work with AI. But then, like, every time, like, a new capability gets unlocked, so now, like, we're seeing with agents, like, there is probably a contingent of, like, early adopters still who, truly get it, who are like, “ we you can do anything. You just have to make sure the right context is there, it's connected to the right tools, and that you are supervising it, but, like, anything is possible.” But then there's, like, this, like, 10x or 100x bigger market where, like, they don't yet get that, or they don't yet see that. And so I think that's the next stage here. So to answer your question, like, I think the adoption is there and growing fast, but I think the opportunity is, like, far bigger than that. That's where we wanna play, especially with ChatGPT Work.ChatGPT Work, Codex, and the Super App MergeSwyx [00:05:27]: Yeah. well, let's, let's skip ahead to ChatGPT Work. only, like, a month ago or so, announced. what was the decision process that led into it? there was this, overall merging of the super app. Is that what we're officially calling it? you deprecated the browser as well. Just, summarize your last, like, couple months of working on this thing.Akshay Nathan [00:05:50]: Yeah. It feels like forever now, but it's only been a few months. I think maybe the one, impetus that, like- Is most salient is when we release Codex, or even internally had Codex, like, it was really surprising to us, I think we recently put out some stats on this, that there was this, like, real inflection of, like, adoption among non-developers at OpenAI. And, I, through this product development process, like, would go to, like, these UXR sessions to talk to people internally. And the thing that stuck out to me is, like, one, like, you go talk to, like, strategic finance or marketing or whatever, and they're all using Codex for, their use cases. That part's cool, but the thing that really stuck out to me is how proud people were that they were using Codex. Like, how, likeSwyx [00:06:34]: It's like, “I'm not supposed to be using it, but I am.”Akshay Nathan [00:06:36]: It was that. It was, like, that they were, early to this, like, new thing, but it was also this thing of, like, they felt like they had a superpower, right? And, what we recognized then is that, like, the power of Codex, the power of agents, like, we already had this massive distribution base of people who have, come to know and love ChatGPT. Like, how do we show that to them? Like, how do we bring it to them? Which is, like, a hard product problem, and it's, like, a tricky thing, right? There's many ways you can go about it. And so that's what we called the Merge and the Super App over time, and ultimately launched it in ChatGPT Work, is how do we do that? But it came from that initial realization that, like, the power was not only for developers, like, much earlier than probably even we thought. Like, it could be extended to everyone.Swyx [00:07:17]: How do you see the products differently? So, like, who is it for, right? So Codex started out even CLI, then app. Now there's a merge of ChatGPT Codex and ChatGPT Work, so is it the opening for the average user, for enterprise, for work? How do you position it?Akshay Nathan [00:07:36]: I think we want to get it to position it for if you're doing work-related things, for lack of a better word, right?Who ChatGPT Work Is ForAkshay Nathan [00:07:42]: I think productivity is what, like, the pillar that I support. Like, that's the name of the team. And the reason for that, the reason we call it productivity and not, like, enterprise or, like, work or something like that, is because there's also personal productivity, right? And, like, I think ChatGPT Work is I've seen people do things in their personal lives that you wouldn't classify as, like, work technically, but, like, these agents are, super capable for. Like, one recent example that someone posted about, on our Slack is, like, someone had, like, a missed package, like they didn't receive it, and then they got, like, the picture of it, from Amazon or whoever the courier was, and they, like, asked ChatGPT Work to, like, find out where that package is. And, like, the agent, is extremely tenacious and, like, took the image and, like, looked at a bunch of, like, listings around their neighborhood and figured out exactly the apartment complex in which the package was, like, gave them some information. And so, like, I think there's all these things that, like, you, work-related or productivity-related things, I think that's what we want the product to be. You asked about Codex. I think we think Codex is, a durable brand, but we have a principle that, like, the user we don't want a user to get stuck in a tab or an experience where they don't get the power of the product. And so, like, everything that you can do, in the Codex portion of the product on desktop, you can do in ChatGPT Work and vice versa. But we made some opinionated product decisions on, like, how much of the Git state, if you're in a Git repo, do we wanna expose to the end user? Or how much do we wanna make the experience of seeing the agents thinking, like, diff forward so that you get exposed to the diffs out of the box. And then, like, on the safety side, like, how do we wanna think about, like, sandboxing and making sure that we have the right defaults in one state versus the other? So, there's, like, some opinions that go behind that, but we do want We don't want the user to need to choose which experience they're in.Swyx [00:09:26]: That is a good goal for AGI, right? Like, people don't want, like, to hide to choose what version of AGI they want. They just want the AGI to decide for them. can I get an answer or, like It's not super clear to me. Is the Codex harness and the ChatGPT Work harness the same? Is it just UI affordances, or are there prompt level or even deeper differences?Shared Harness, Different UX: Codex vs. WorkAkshay Nathan [00:09:49]: So the harness is the same. The harness is shared. on In both of the products, we made improvements to the harness to make it good for knowledge work, especially as it relates to plug-ins or computer use or artifacts. You get that power regardless of which experience you're in. On the UX side, there's opinionated takes that we have when you're in Codex mode, what the UX should be how the UX should behave, and some stuff around the sandbox like I mentioned, but the underlying harness and capabilities should be the same.Swyx [00:10:16]: I'm just kinda curious. Maybe we can, -- Is there a query that we can run that would look different in the two modes?Akshay Nathan [00:10:23]: Yeah. I tried to create, like ask it to create, like, a retirement calculator spreadsheet or something, in both modes. And then in Codex mode, you might have to be in a repo for this, but you'll see, like, the diffs of, like, the sheet that it's creating and stuff like that, and the file edits. But in Work you won't be able to see that.Swyx [00:10:42]: I think that's, that's super clear. And then also the other thing I wanted to dive into was your, the productivity team. what else is there? first of all, what are the top-level teams other than productivity? Isn't productivity everything?Productivity Teams and Core ChatAkshay Nathan [00:10:55]: SoSwyx [00:10:55]: Science?Akshay Nathan [00:10:55]: We have a team focused on ChatGPT. Like, the core chat experience, for consumer, which is like, not, I think all productivity. Like, there'People are using ChatGPT every day for search to, figure out how to write messages to loved ones, to think about, how to, like, learn a new topic, et cetera. And so there's so much more inside to create images. And there's so much more in chat that, the hundreds of millions of users are using that warrants, like, a very dedicated effort. And there's teams focused on enterprise and infrastructure and API and stuff like that, so.Swyx [00:11:33]: I will bring it up.Retirement Calculator Demo and Git-First UXSwyx [00:11:34]: Yeah. So I have them both running. This is ChatGPT Work. There's a Codex version here. I picked “Five Little Ducks” song, so this will take a while.Akshay Nathan [00:11:43]: Huh.Swyx [00:11:43]: I think we'll just keep it in the background and, as they finish, we'll look into some of the differences.Akshay Nathan [00:11:48]: Yeah. But immediately, I think if you flip back to the Codex version you'll see that,Swyx [00:11:53]: That it assumesAkshay Nathan [00:11:54]: Like theSwyx [00:11:54]: It assumes Git. Yeah. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:11:56]: The, like, dynamic island assumes that you're in a Git repo. And you might miss some stuff because some of it is, like, in the actual chain of thought with those changes and how we display that, but yeah.Swyx [00:12:07]: Is there an unintuitive like, is there a thing that you wanted to ship and then you got feedback, and you were like, “No, let's not do it?” Like, what's the thinking behind that?Why Merge the ExperiencesAkshay Nathan [00:12:14]: In, ChatGPT Work?Akshay Nathan [00:12:17]: I think one direction we could have gone with this is, like, keeping the experiences, like, completely separate. So it's like, whySwyx [00:12:22]: Different apps.Akshay Nathan [00:12:23]: Exactly, like different apps or even in the same app, like different, completely different experiences. Like, why merge it all? Like, what is. Codex, people love. Like, why bring these products together? And I think the intuition here is that, like, all of our jobs are, like, changing dramatically with AI. Like, for, like, every few months, like, I feel like I wake up, and I'm, like, doing a completely different thing than I was doing a few months ago. And my hypothesis here is that, or I should say our hypothesis is that, like, part of what we're, we're building, this technology is giving people leverage. Like, the things, maybe it's the more mundane parts of your job or parts that, like, if you were able to automate, you'd be able to share more ideas faster or whatever, like, you're able to do now. And because of that, like, that might blur the lines between someone who's, like, only writing code or creating strategy docs or, planning events or, helping with marketing or doing podcasts or whatever, right? And so, like, these things are gonna get blurred over time. And so, like, trying to draw a hard boundary based on, like, the who you are is gonna be, is gonna be tough. And, like, we should enable users to choose, but we shouldn't box them in. And so a lot of the work that went in here, like, keeping the primitives the same, like for example, plugins are, like, unified across, this product and ChatGPT and the cloud, was because of that. It's this thesis that, like, eventually things are gonna come together and we don't wanna be Like, we wanna be prescriptive about when to be in either experience, but we don't want to box anyone in.Swyx [00:13:45]: I wonder if there's users who are very tuned to the old ChatGPT harness that is effectively now replaced by the Codex harness. I can't imagine what that was, but maybe they're more the more conversational side. Can you compare and contrast the two harnesses? ‘Cause only you've seen it.Akshay Nathan [00:14:02]: Yeah. I think ChatGPT, the existing harness, like, still exists today. Like, it exists in this app,Harness Engineering: ChatGPT vs. CodexSwyx [00:14:08]: The classic, right?Akshay Nathan [00:14:09]: TheVibhu [00:14:09]: You just start a new chat, and you don't go under Work, right?Akshay Nathan [00:14:13]: Yeah. If you startVibhu [00:14:13]: SoAkshay Nathan [00:14:14]: A new chat and go to chat, then you're, you're talking to ChatGPT with the instant model.Vibhu [00:14:16]: Oh, we can technically do another. But on instant.Swyx [00:14:21]: Yeah. So this one's not gonna code or it's gonna be in line. It's on a in line in a sandbox.Akshay Nathan [00:14:26]: It'llVibhu [00:14:27]: Oh, that's coolAkshay Nathan [00:14:27]: We try to push you to go to Work if you're creating a spreadsheet. Yeah, but this isSwyx [00:14:30]: And this is a router decision? Sorry. Is it a router decision?Akshay Nathan [00:14:34]: This is the decision that, the model is making, and then, like it sees that you're able to. or you're trying to do something that would be better served in Work mode. But I think your question was like, what are the advantages of, like, the chat, like ChatGPT chat harness?Swyx [00:14:48]: It's more broadly, like, I wanna, do an oral history of harness engineering. Right? the ChatGPT harness lasted us from, let's call it the ‘01 era, until now, and now it's being replaced by the Codex harness effectively. And they're, they're overlapping somewhat, but I'm curious what changed if there is.Akshay Nathan [00:15:10]: My perspective on this is, like, there's, there's, there's there's like a constant process of, like, divergence, convergence, divergence, convergence. And in chat, like, many of the use cases I was talking about before, like, search or learning, I think we're, we're really optimizing for latency and optimizing for personality and, like, different things that, over time, like the product The reason people love ChatGPT is because we've been optimizing for those things and working on them for so long. Codex, what we learned was that, like, if you give the agent access to this infinitely flexible environment as a computer, it can do really powerful things. And so when we think about, like, okay, well, for knowledge work, like, what is which mode should we choose? It was like it felt more natural to us to bring that to this, like, computer environment and, maybe abstract some of the details of this computer away from users who might not be used to that, but, like, give them that same power. But ultimately, I think that we want the power in all places, right? We wanna meet people where they are. So I'm sure there'll be work down the road in order to get things to be, equivalently capable in all scenarios. But it's just a question of, like, what we've been focusing on the product on historically and what we're focusing on now.Models, Defaults, and the Reasoning SliderVibhu [00:16:24]: I think alongside that, outside of just harness and when to use Codex, ChatGPT, or Work, there's also the new models you've released, right? any guidance there? So people love to min-max what to use, like only use Terra on high reasoning versus, for this, you wanna use Sol here, ignore all theseAkshay Nathan [00:16:44]: There's 32 options.Vibhu [00:16:46]: But, that being said, for people that are expanding, so, productivity trying stuff for work that don't have the breakdown of what all this is what's, what's the advice, right?Akshay Nathan [00:16:59]: Well, I think before the advice, like the first thing is, like, none of this would be possible without these models. Like, the, I think you asked earlier, like, what was, like, the inspiration for work and, like, early on, like I mentioned, like, what we were seeing with Codex, but that was also because the models were getting infinitely more capable. That's happening again. I think it's like another step function jump now. And to answer the question on advice, like we want this default to be the best possible. Like, we wanna be opinionated about the default, and so we've we've chosen a default that we think is gonna be the best for everyone. And, we have for power users options under the hood. We could One could argue that there might be too many right now, and we're, working on simplifying it. But you can extend, the reasoning level, and you can change between the different model classes if you need to, but the default should be the best for most use cases. So my advice to most people would be to stick to that. And then, if you reach a situation in which you think that you could, you wanna try, a different configuration, if you're not seeing either the efficiency on the cost side or the quality on the intelligence side, then you can change the defaults and see if you can get something better. But we think that the default should be good enough.Swyx [00:18:09]: I have, I'm just gonna run something by you since you have way more experience than me. I've recently been doing Sol Lite but with goal, with the idea that the goal augments the reasoning effort, but with more terminations and turns.Swyx [00:18:24]: Is that a good way to think about it as opposed to Sol Ultra or Sol, Extra High?Akshay Nathan [00:18:29]: Yeah. It's hard to say becauseSwyx [00:18:31]: Yeah. It's like an interaction effect.Akshay Nathan [00:18:33]: exactly. It's like there's a preference on, for you as an individual, like how do you like to collaborate with the models? Like how many of those like terminations, as you call them, do you want where, you can steer or make sure that it's doing the right thing?Akshay Nathan [00:18:46]: I think generally people should try whatever works for them. I think that like using Ultra or the like multi-agent setups are best for like when you have like tasks that are either incredibly complicated, like open explorations or very paralyzable. I think even for tasks using goal, I think is best for tasks that you'll be able to make consistent progress in a way that's verifiable over time. But I think for most tasks, they don't fall into either of those buckets. And so like at least when they're starting, and so that's why I think the best first step is like trying it with the default configuration and then seeing like where you wanna go from there.Swyx [00:19:29]: Right. You guys worked on a slider, which is super helpful for reducing the amount of panic.Vibhu [00:19:36]: It's nice on mobile at least. There's a nice slider there.Swyx [00:19:38]: It's nicer.Vibhu [00:19:39]: I haven't tried it.Swyx [00:19:40]: So you have the advanced view there, but if you click advanced view. Yeah.Vibhu [00:19:44]: Ooh, it's just a nice slider. Yeah.Swyx [00:19:46]: Very pretty, very colorful.Akshay Nathan [00:19:48]: Yeah. The idea was here was like reduce it to like one dimension even though there's multiple dimensions, right? Try to project it onto a single dimension for the user. Like, something from that represents like, speed and efficiency on one side and then like quality and thoroughness on the other side.Artifacts, Spreadsheets, and the Work LaunchSwyx [00:20:04]: I am just puzzled that it uses Sol so much, like the lowerVibhu [00:20:07]: NoSwyx [00:20:07]: Grounds I would've usedVibhu [00:20:08]: I think the slider, if I'm not mistaken, isSwyx [00:20:09]: Terra.Vibhu [00:20:10]: Oh, it is.Swyx [00:20:11]: Yeah. See? So they preset Terra to only be the light one. But like I think a lot of people would more people should use Terra. One, because Sol keeps running out of capacity.Vibhu [00:20:22]: I'm the reason. Here's ten minutes of ourSwyx [00:20:24]: There you goVibhu [00:20:25]: Retirement calculator.Swyx [00:20:26]: Oh, that's the Excel thing working for you.Vibhu [00:20:28]: This is,Swyx [00:20:28]: Oh my God. Look at thatVibhu [00:20:28]: This is work, and then Codex is still cooking, so we'll get back into it. I think it'll be interesting to see the thought process, the reasoning, and also, this is eight minutes on work. Codex is still cooking.Swyx [00:20:41]: Yeah. And by the way, so I've, do Gabriel Chua? He's part of the OpenAI Singapore team. He showed me this, and I was like pretty shocked that this looks like Excel. It edits Excel files. You never paid an Excel license, right? Like, but somehow this is like workable and it's agentic Excel.Akshay Nathan [00:21:01]: Yeah. one of the big like pushes that we made for this launch was like artifacts, right?Akshay Nathan [00:21:05]: Like both on the model side, like I think if you compare this with GPT-5.5 and GPT-5.4 before that, you'll see that there's been pretty dramatic improvements in the quality of these artifacts and then also on the product side.Vibhu [00:21:16]: The UX side is also crazy, like hosted sites and whatnot. No longer needing to host your own little webpage, like itSwyx [00:21:23]: Oh, I have a story about that. I can do, a separate thing. I'll need to take the visuals here, but we-we'll, we'll cut to that later. Was there co-training, because you were moving making this big move and you launched GPT-5.6 on the same day as ChatGPT Work? Was there influence between the model training teams and the harness teams, or did they did the launch dates just happen to line up the same day?Akshay Nathan [00:21:46]: I think the we collaborate heavily with the research teams, and I think that's like one of the most magical parts of the job, like the most fun parts of the job. But yeah, just using artifacts as an example. Like, a lot of what you're seeing, like underneath the hood, there's a lot of work that went into making sure that like, we had the right infra to be able to train the models to get better at this. And then on the product side, like had the right experience for users to be able to collaborate with the model on an artifact like this. In fact, like this whole viewer, like the intuition here is that like, it's not necessarily that you wouldn't need an Excel license. This is stage one, right? Like, this is probably not what you meant when you're like making a retirement calculator.Vibhu [00:22:24]: Yeah, you can iterate very easily. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:22:24]: You wanna iterate and like when you're seeing it, and if this thing is high fidelity to like what you would see in or what your coworkers would see if you were to send this to Sean, like that I think makes it so easier and makes you trust the product in terms of iteration.Vibhu [00:22:39]: When you say coworkers would see, do you see a multiplayer, multi-team collaboration with artifacts? Any things you guys think about that?Multiplayer Artifacts and CollaborationSwyx [00:22:46]: You can already share it, right?Akshay Nathan [00:22:48]: Yeah. It's inter It's something that, we're actively thinking about. one thing that, we've noticed internally without talking too much about the roadmap is that like there's many times when someone will ping me about something, and I will ask ChatGPT Work the question, and then I'll ping them back the answer.Akshay Nathan [00:23:04]: And then I'll be thinking likeVibhu [00:23:04]: Like the simplest would be, the three of us are just all on one hosted.Akshay Nathan [00:23:07]: Exactly. And I'll think about like was I required in this loop or and then maybe it was, rephrase like what they were asking or pulled from certain context or whatever. But like, when I gave them back the answer, that process was also lossy, right? Like I gave them just like my interpretation of what ChatGPT Work cooked up. But like underneath the hood, there's so much context like in the rollout and stuff that could be interesting.Vibhu [00:23:28]: Yeah, it'sSwyx [00:23:28]: So like the answer was preemptively respond to every inbound request?Akshay Nathan [00:23:33]: No, it was just like literally like this is what I do sometimes as my job.Swyx [00:23:36]: I know you copy-paste and then you're just a message forwarding serviceAkshay Nathan [00:23:39]: Yeah. Yeah, exactlySwyx [00:23:39]: From AI to AI.Vibhu [00:23:40]: But I think it's interesting, right? It helps people understand the capability of what you can ask and delegate that oftentimes people don't realize until they try or someone shows you, and then you're like, “Oh, okay. Okay, I see.”Swyx [00:23:52]: I think it's als there's also like a, light security issue, where like you're the permissions layer. Like yes, I could query everything that you query, and I could get an automated response, but maybe I'm not supposed to see it. And that there's no way I would know because I'm not supposed to know what I don't know.Akshay Nathan [00:24:07]: Especially as like, with ChatGPT Work, we're, we're asking you to connect your plug-ins and, it's pulling from your local files and stuff like that. Like the amount of context that the agent has access to is like- Deeply personal and like that's something I think we need to preserve, so that'll be definitely a challenge.Swyx [00:24:22]: There's Excel, there's PowerPoint, there's Docs, the, grand trio of work. What other formats of work do you think about? like you worked on Airtable. Is there a future where there's like OpenAI Airtable? Like what does that look like if you ever ended up doing it?Akshay Nathan [00:24:41]: It's a really good question. I think,Formats of Work: Sites as Knowledge ArtifactsAkshay Nathan [00:24:43]: one that you didn't bring up was Sites, and I think that wasSwyx [00:24:46]: SitesAkshay Nathan [00:24:46]: A core part of this launch. There's one side of Sites that I think people commonly talk about, especially on Twitter and stuff or X, of like, this like prototyping tool. And like we saw that happen with this launch even. The model slider that you guys were referencing earlier, like that was developed almost fully in a Site. Like, the collaboration between design and engineering and product on that was like on a site where we play with, the affordance and figure out how it feels and all of that. But the other aspect that I think is a little bit less talked about is like Sites as like an artifact for knowledge work. I was talking to someone the other day who's on like our corporate finance team, and like we were mentioning how like now when they have these reports that they're, they're working on as a team month to month, historically those things were in slide decks and in spreadsheets, and now they're just in Sites. And like Sites is the mechanism that they collaborate across the team. And the reason is ‘cause it's like, it's like somewhat higher bandwidth. Like, at these tools like PowerPoint and Excel are like infinitely flexible, but at some point you reach the boundary of like either as a human you may not know how to use some feature or something, or the product itself doesn't support it. But with a site you can do anything. You ask for anything and you can get that. once people see that magic, I think it's been really valuable.Swyx [00:26:02]: Yeah, let me show you my case study. this involves all the hot topics including ChatGPT Work, but also GPT-5.6 token billionaires and token maxing and Sites and auto research. I'm a fan of this game called Strata. It's, it's like a little board game that youSites, Auto Research, and Research DashboardsSwyx [00:26:17]: That you play with, physical blocks, that come on top of it like that. So over the weekend I took like thirty photos and just threw into ChatGPT. one point seven billion tokens later, out comes this site with a fully playable thingAkshay Nathan [00:26:32]: WowSwyx [00:26:32]: With 3D, block placement and everything. Because it requires physical blocks and I needed friends to train on it so they can get better, so I can play against them. But also, I could also, do things like train an AI on it and that's, thatAkshay Nathan [00:26:45]: That's your auto researchSwyx [00:26:46]: That gets into auto research. So, you want to train your own AIs, and then make sure they self-play against, each other. I need to set both AIs. So this is AI versus AI, and they're, they're gonna self-play. the AIs start out bad and then you want to define a loss function and get good. I wasn't gonna supervise all this. I was at, I was down in San Mateo, attending a conference. What I ended up doing was, auto researching and on this and creating benchmarks and that there was just way too many parameters for me to read. So I started asking it for a site, and it's created this lab, panel. Where is there a, is there a shortcut for a site that is created?Akshay Nathan [00:27:28]: You should be able to go in the sidebar to Sites, top of the sidebar. The left sidebar.Swyx [00:27:33]: This one? Oh, left?Akshay Nathan [00:27:35]: Yeah. Just scroll all the way to the top.Swyx [00:27:36]: Oh. Oh, it says Sites. Oh, there you go. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:27:39]: Ooh.Swyx [00:27:40]: So it create, it creates the sites. I don't, I don't think this is, it is exactly what I wanted, but let me show you what it popped up, right? Like I think as a research artifact, it is very important to communicate, exactly, what is being done. Outputs this thing which I eventually started publishing. So I moved it off of Sites because I wanted more, database and infrastructure than Sites afforded me. But this is like a research output that you can start to mess with and like try to think about like what hyperparameters are you tuning for training AIs. And like I was trying to make like scaling laws and everything and doing all sorts of like game optimization stuff. And the fact that you can just throw this up as a research artifact, like I no longer need to read ChatGPT output. I read Site output. But then there's also a huge sprawl. Like look at how long this thing is. There's so many numbers. It is pretty overwhelming, so then I have to start pruning it from there. But, it's an interesting transition from Markdown effectively that you're putting out to, you're putting out a whole functional site.Akshay Nathan [00:28:41]: I think Markdown just isn't that optimal for people to read, right? Might as well just write HTML website and I don't know. I think you can do a lot with customizing this, right? You have your skills that explain what you want. Like I noticed they're quite verbose. I don't need a lot of this information.Swyx [00:28:57]: It's very verbose.Akshay Nathan [00:28:58]: So and then the nice thing of having a site side by side is, you just iterate on what you want and what you don't, right?Swyx [00:29:05]: Yeah. I don't know if, any that triggers any stories for you of how it's run internally. Am I doing this right?Akshay Nathan [00:29:11]: Yeah. I think that this is like a workflow that we're seeing like all different types of teams use, where like the canonical artifact that was previously a deck or something is now becoming a site. And like with a site you, because it's just HTML, you can like. It's infinitely flexible. And so, if you want to give more prominence to a certain thing that like in a slide deck would, feel like it was buried, like you can do that. You can have it be like the hero image, right? And so I think that like, people are starting to see that. There's more work to be done to make these things like much more easier, easy to collaborate on. You mentioned that they're very, they're long and verbose, could be broken up. I'm sure that there's still something to do there.Swyx [00:29:53]: They're super long. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:29:54]: Yeah. But I think we're starting to see that like there is this aspect of this is a really interesting, format, for people to use, that's like much more flexible than what they ever had before.Swyx [00:30:07]: I think your job also comes becomes meta. You're not designing the products. You're designing a product to make products, and I'm curious how you manage that.Designing a Product That Makes ProductsAkshay Nathan [00:30:18]: I think one thing that we've been Like when we look at the UX, like that we've been thinking a lot about is how can we balance like simplicity with capability? Like if we're designing a product, like you said, that like is made to make up build other things, right? You can build so many different things. But we can't put that all in front of you because you'll get overwhelmed.Vibhu [00:30:41]: Yes.Akshay Nathan [00:30:41]: And so we had similar problem or similar challenges even Chat-with ChatGPT, but especially now, like when there's so much that can be done, I think the balance that we're constantly trying to strike is like, how can we give the user enough of a UI surface where, they can be expressive, they can tell the agent what they need, they can verify that it's using the right tools, it's pulling from the right sources, et cetera, but then it gets out of the way. And then how can we build the right system such that we can show them instead of telling them what can be done? Because so much of this is gonna be like, how do they discover the next use case and the next one after that if they really want to be super powered by the AI.Games, Private Evals, and Show-Don'TellVibhu [00:31:19]: Yeah. It's interesting. I feel like everyone also just has a different way to do it, right? I made a similar version of this same game. I didn't take any pictures of board or rule game. I threw in at goal eighteen minutes, fifty-three seconds later, a lot of tokens later, I've got a similar version. not with all the auto research and whatnot, butAkshay Nathan [00:31:39]: You gotta do all the latest trends.Vibhu [00:31:40]: And yeah, I did it with, did it with Codex, not Work, but it's interesting, right?Akshay Nathan [00:31:45]: Yeah. And this is GPT Image generating the pro avatars. Very good for game design. LikeVibhu [00:31:51]: AndAkshay Nathan [00:31:52]: A lot of game designers were like really into GPT Image for assets.Vibhu [00:31:54]: I will say like the broader takeaway probably is the reason that we do this is more so just to test the tools, right? Like, this was also a test for GPT-5.6 came out. I had done the game on GPT-5.5, right? The ability for me to no longer need it to. I had to feed it the rules. It's, it's a pretty niche game. It couldn't find how to do this on its own.Akshay Nathan [00:32:15]: Oh, yeah.Vibhu [00:32:15]: GPT-5.6Akshay Nathan [00:32:16]: It is out-of-distribution, which is why I was also very keen on testing the GPT-5.6 capability.Vibhu [00:32:21]: But, this is just as work comes out, as new things come out, these are just our side ways to test things, right?Akshay Nathan [00:32:27]: Yeah. It's some private eval. That is not this private.Vibhu [00:32:31]: But also valuable because now you can send this to your friends and I learned about this game through seeing this.Akshay Nathan [00:32:36]: It's a hard game. He's very good.Vibhu [00:32:39]: It's good to when no one is competing with you. But yes, it's a classic RL problem of like self-play, bootstrapping your game AI. yeah, you see how easily work becomes personal and personal becomes work because the thing I do for personal, it directly informs people I work with because I showed it to them. They were like, “Oh, you can do that with GPT?” Which like I imagine is the growth strategy.Akshay Nathan [00:33:02]: Yeah. The show not tell is a big piece that, I think we've we're not still not fully cracked of like, showing people all the things that they can do with the product versus like trying to teach that to them through like, articles or onboarding or whatever.Akshay Nathan [00:33:18]: So meeting them in the moment.Vibhu [00:33:19]: It's a career risk for me, because I used to be in developer relations, right? Where your job is to show, and then you're like, “What do you mean? You don't, you don't need.” your job is to tell. And then. But the product people are like, “Well, we don't need you if our product is intuitive enough.” SoAkshay Nathan [00:33:37]: Yeah. that's the magic of the models. So you can tailor the telling or the showing to like specifically what the user needs, like what they care about, what they've done in the past, exactly where they are on the adoption journey. So I think that's like gonna be a super big opportunity.Vibhu [00:33:50]: Seems easier and easier now to tailor custom showing, right? People have different use cases. As much as you said you don't wanna segment different people into different buckets, right? It's also not that hard to for people that are in different categories. But the question, is you said your team is more broadly on. What was the term you used? Productivity?From Developers to Knowledge Work to EveryoneAkshay Nathan [00:34:12]: Productivity.Vibhu [00:34:12]: Productivity. So howAkshay Nathan [00:34:12]: Which is now work.Vibhu [00:34:14]: Is it work? Is there another distribution that we're not hitting? Is there a group of people that will have something different than ChatGPT, Codex or Work? Is there more that the mass isn't targeting?Akshay Nathan [00:34:28]: I see it as like a sequencing, like. The vision is like bring useful agents to everyone. We started with like developers. Like developers historically are like early adopters that are willing to put up with more friction, set things up, et cetera. Like that's where, Codex started. I think the next opportunity is like what we call general knowledge work, all the other functions around developers. I think when you go from developers to this segment, like there's inherent challenges with like, this show not tell thing that we're talking about, making the product more understandable, bringing in new capabilities that matter more for this cohort than matter for developers, things like artifacts, things like computer use, et cetera. And then I think like the same learnings, like similarly how we took the learnings from developers and brought it to, general knowledge work, the next stage will be like taking the learnings from general knowledge work and bringing it to everyone no matter what they're doing in their lives. And we're already seeing that a little bit. Like this game example that you have is, something that's like on the border of like fun and personal life to, your professional life. I use ChatGPT Work full-time at home for everything, like for whatever I'm doing. I used it the other day to come up with a meal plan and like, save that on the like computer environment that it has and something that I can continue going back to. Like is everyone doing that yet? Probably not because the thing says work on it, but eventually, we wanna get people there.Vibhu [00:35:51]: ChatGPT life.Akshay Nathan [00:35:52]: Yeah, exactly. ChatGPT cooking. But I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of opportunity there, but I see it as like, we're, we're built we built a foundation in software engineering, and we're gonna take the same learnings that we take from software engineering to knowledge work to everyone.Vibhu [00:36:07]: Do you have any power user advice? I feel like, there's a group of people that will live it, use it for everything, stay on it twenty four-seven. And then there's a bit of a gap between that crew and people that, okay, I use it for work. I use it occasionally. Sometimes I type questions. any advice, any learnings, anything you recommend or just, takeaways that you've found that help bridge that gap?Power User Advice: Push the Frontier of ImaginationAkshay Nathan [00:36:30]: I think a couple things that I've seen is like, one, that it really helps to broaden your imagination of what's possible, and this has been a learning even for me. Like, the technology has progressed so fast that, something that, like, even three months ago, like, no way the models can do this. Like, now it's like, wow, it's like it can. Like,Swyx [00:36:52]: Give an exampleAkshay Nathan [00:36:52]: We're going through right now our, like, review cycle internally, and, people always talked about this as, like, a thing that the models are good at and like, there's a cliché of like: Okay, like, no one wants to be writing reviews and, like, we just use AI to do it. But in all seriousnessSwyx [00:37:09]: And it can evaluate it as well.Akshay Nathan [00:37:10]: Yeah, exactly. In all seriousness, before it was, like, just, like, slop and, like, I think it was helpful, but, not super productive. Now I've found that, like, the model can do a much better job than me, especially in this environment of, like, pulling context on, like, what people are up to, how they've like the things that they've done to make a difference, highlighting like, wins that they've had that, like, I might may not even have seen. It has access to, like, everything, right? Like the code, like, things that they've caught, reviews, Slack, everything. And so it's, like, incredibly powerful in that domain and, like, just like six months ago, the last time we did this cycle, like, I didn't even I tried using it, but it was not at all helpful. And this time it's been, like, incredibly helpful and, like, so I think continuing to push the frontier of imagination of what's possible, even if you tried something before, I think is maybe the my biggest piece of advice. The other, thing is, like, the more you put in, especially in this environment where, like, the model has access to everything on your computer or in ChatGPT Work, like you can create, artifacts over time and save them in your library and, like, the model will continue having access to those. Like, the more information you give it about whatever domain you're in, whether it's your life or your work, the more valuable it becomes, and it'll become valuable in, like, ways that might surprise you. Like, it might pull from context in a way that, may be proactive and that you might not even have thought about. But it needs to have access to those, to that those tools or that context first.Reviews, Agentic Search, and Context GatheringSwyx [00:38:27]: One thing I just wanna talk about the review stuff because I'm still that's a very sensitive thing and you're, you're a founder, you've managed people, you've hired people. As manager myself, I'm very reticent to put out any LLM-generated things especially when it comes to people, ‘cause it feels like you don't care.Swyx [00:38:46]: Presumably at OpenAI, people are more open to being eval rated by GPT. But are there any unofficial rules around this? Like, what's the etiquette?Akshay Nathan [00:38:57]: Oh, I think the etiquette is that, like, I would never write something via, like, well, solely via AI and, like, present it as, like, a review for someone. What I was talking about is more, like, gathering context. That's the place where it's incredibly helpful.Swyx [00:39:08]: So it's just search.Akshay Nathan [00:39:09]: Yeah, exactly.Swyx [00:39:09]: It's agentic search. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:39:10]: It's like agentic search, but, that you can tailor and steer much more capably than you could before, ‘cause, like, the thing is it's all there's a flywheel happening, right? Because of Codex, people are able to do, and because of ChatGPT, people are able to do so much more now than ever before. And if you're able to do so much more, it's easy to miss things as well. And so, like, I think we need to use these same tools to keep up with all the impact that people are having and understand, where we can be helpful.Swyx [00:39:39]: I think the thing, like, I run a small company, so easy to search, but at the scale of OpenAI with the amount of messages that you guys put in Slack, do you think that it misses things?Remembering What Humans MissAkshay Nathan [00:39:50]: Probably, but I think that I also miss things.Swyx [00:39:52]: Like, it doesn't matter, right?Vibhu [00:39:53]: I think sometimes it'sSwyx [00:39:53]: Like it's, as it needs to be human-levelAkshay Nathan [00:39:54]: It's all relative, right? Yeah.Vibhu [00:39:56]: Sometimes it's nice when it finds things you wouldn't, right? Like right now, my Codex system prompts, they're set up in such a way that every project I have has a secret- separate, notes MD, and it just writes learnings to there. And then the global one can pull from all these. So sometimes it'll be like: Oh, there's this project you did like four months ago. Here's a note that we had, and it randomly pulls it back into context that I would never do, I haven't thought about.Vibhu [00:40:20]: And I'm like, okay, this is quite superhuman, right? Like, stuff that would. And, it'll save like hours on chunking of stuff or find something that's already been done. I'm like, as much as it might miss stuff, I would too, but it's very useful when it finds stuff. And I have like a very, non-super engineered solution to this. It's just marked down files that get pulled whenever they want.Akshay Nathan [00:40:41]: Yeah. I have a funny anecdote about this. Like, recently gearing up to this launch, the team has been, really cooking on it for a couple months, and over that time, like there's so much conversation and chatter going on in Slack and Docs and elsewhere. And, one of the members of the team set up this, scheduled tasks, like automation to like look at everything that's going on and, like, come up with the best memes and then post it in one of our shared channels. And like, there are two cool things about this. Like, the first is, like, I think the models are, over time, like starting to become like funny.Swyx [00:41:13]: Funny. Nice.Akshay Nathan [00:41:13]: Whereas like, a year ago, like that was not at all the case. The second is, it was what you were saying, like they find things that in surprising ways that you may not have thought of and like create connections that you may not have thought of. And that really helps with like the meme generation because then you can see something that, genuinely surprises you and, is funny in that way. So yeah, that's like not like the most productive, use of this the technology, but it does it does uncover this, like this capability that's emerging, which is just like to find information that you otherwise would not know of.Launch Momentum and the 10 Million User MilestoneSwyx [00:41:43]: Talking about the launch, I think, I have pretty much said this is the most successful launch in a long time. I think even more successful personally than 5.0, and they're announcing ten million users. Does it feel different? You've been through a lot of launches.Akshay Nathan [00:41:58]: I think it feels like a culmination. Well, I think two things. One, it feels like a culmination, like I was mentioning earlier, like this like vision mission that we've been on for a long time. Like I said, we saw the magic of Codex internally, and then we're like extremely excited to bring this to many more people and to see it working, to like see us reach, the distribution goal, numbers that you mentioned, like I think that's like huge and super exciting. The flip side of that is like, there's so much more to do too. Like, that's also really exciting. Like, ChatGPT as a whole, like the this product that, everyone almost equates to AI and like loves, has hundreds of millions of users. And so like ten million is really cool, but like we need to get this to everyone. Like, we need everyone to feel this magic. And so that's the next step from here. But yeah, I think extremely pumped about how it's going so far and the opportunities.Swyx [00:42:46]: Awesome. I did want to also Because I've, I've, I've been tracking the number closely, it transitioned at some point from just Codex users to Codex plus ChatGPT Work, because they're same harness. The whole point is that you don't, you can't, count them separately. Do you have roughly a billion, ChatGPT users? Why did it just jump to one billion right away? Like, isn't that the default on ChatGPT or no?Codex, ChatGPT Work, and the Developer BrandAkshay Nathan [00:43:11]: We don't default you into ChatGPT Work if you're on ChatGPTSwyx [00:43:14]: If you're free. YeahAkshay Nathan [00:43:15]: It's also only available to paid users right now. And I think there's like a process of, educating users of what is the value of this product, having them try it, learning from their feedback, and making it better over time. But the goal is to, get as many of the people who love ChatGPT today to like feel the power of ChatGPT Work. But I think it'll be a journey.Swyx [00:43:36]: Yeah. And Codex will still be alive as a brand for the foreseeable future. And we'll just toggle between them as needed for UI stuff.Akshay Nathan [00:43:44]: Yeah, I think it's even stronger point than that. Like, I think we fully intend to like, treat developer. Like, developers have been, a core market for us for so long, and like there's, there's so much more that we can do to make Codex great specifically for, software development, and we'll continue to do that. This doesn't take away from that at all. If anything, it should increase the utility of something like Codex, because now you can move seamlessly between writing a diff to creating an artifact or, doing a search over your factor.Swyx [00:44:11]: I do wonder how much this terminology leaks to the non-technical user. Like, do they have to learn to say artifact if I want artifact? Or.Akshay Nathan [00:44:20]: It's funny, like we call it artifacts internally ‘cause that's what the teams call it.Swyx [00:44:23]: It's nice. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:44:23]: But like externally, like no one says that, no one calls it an artifact. But I think that people like often, like describe things, whatever they're used to, right? So if, ChatGPT Work is good at creating slides, they'll say ChatGPT Work is good at creating slides, and that's what we want.OpenClaw, Personal OS, and Persistent ComputersSwyx [00:44:38]: One big Another, it's July of twenty-six. One big thing that also happens in, for OpenAI was OpenClaw, and that's I think a lot of people's first time really maxing a agent for personal stuff, but also crossing over to work in essence same way. As far as I understand, OpenClaw is still independent, but did you go through your own OpenClaw moments? Were there any lessons you took from OpenClaw to Codex or back? Whatever.Akshay Nathan [00:45:06]: I think there's a lot of inspiration. I did go through my own OpenClaw moment. I,Swyx [00:45:10]: Yeah, tell the storyAkshay Nathan [00:45:10]: Me and my wife like set up an OpenClaw to like try to manage everything in our house. Not that there's like a ton, but it was like quite useful. We gave it a calendar. It started, creating events for us and stuff. At some point, the laptop that we were running on, it died and never got a chance to pick it back up. But there was a lot of inspiration there, like, in ChatGPT Work, in web and mobile, like you get access to this like persistent computer environment where, you can store files, and those files stay around between sessions. And the idea is to be able to enable use cases like this. one of the members of our team uses ChatGPT Work for what they used OpenClaw from before, and then feel like it has like completely transitioned, which is like, workout planning and like meal tracking. which again, it's like a work-related thing, right? It's like not work necessarily, but it's like in personal productivity space. But it has all the same primitives. So it has scheduled tasks. It has the ability to store files on a file system. It has the ability to like reference those things over time. And so you start to see the same types of use cases emerge, which has been really cool.Swyx [00:46:14]: Is there a point that ChatGPT Work completely replaces OpenClaw? they're independent, so.Akshay Nathan [00:46:20]: Yeah, I'm, I'm not close to it, so I can't speak to the OpenClaw roadmap, but I don't think so. I think that there's gonna be, there's always a need for like this like incredible, like open source technology that team has built. And I think that we can draw inspiration, in the product and, ChatGPT, I think many more people have like heard about and used ChatGPT than have used OpenClaw. And if we can take the magic from OpenClaw and bring it to them, I think that'll be a success. I think that like one thing on the ChatGPT Work side that we feel strongly about is that like the core experience is that you come to this product and you have a conversation, start a session, whatever you wanna call it, with this agent. And the magic of the product is that you can do anything in that moment. And we would like to create a product where you don't have to click a button or to go to a different place, whatever, and you can get whatever functionality exists in, your finances app or where or any other product like in this one place. And so that's the goal. It's like it we want an extensible system with plugins where you can connect to the tools that you need in order to be able to accomplish like a financial task, where you can, if you're doing like science work, like we have an ability to like extend the system in such that you can like write the tech and it performs well. There'll always be like products that we support that are best in class at those things, but we want as much of the magic as possible in that core experience.Swyx [00:47:45]: Yeah. Do you think that you can do everything you used to do with Wealthfront in ChatGPT Finance?Finance, Data Access, and Centralized ContextAkshay Nathan [00:47:50]: I tried it. like ChatGPT doesn't yet custody, cash and assets for me. So that part, no, not yet. But I, there was like a whole component of like retirement planning and, like financial planning and budgeting and stuff that, we were looking into when I was there. And like with the finances plugin, like that's all possible with ChatGPT today. So, I feel

AI makes it easier than ever to find and act on information—especially now that teams can connect to and search across all the apps they use for work. So how do you ensure that only the right people and the right tools can access your team's most sensitive content? In this episode, we talk with Jess Jimenez, the head of security at Dropbox, about what security looks like in the age of AI at Dropbox-scale—from building AI products securely to building trust with the people who use them. Jess talks about the importance of access control lists, defending against the latest AI threats, and how Dropbox Protect helps teams securely share content with both humans and AI so they can collaborate more safely. ~ ~ ~  Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox. Find, organize, and share your work—all in one place—with context-aware AI from Dropbox. You can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.ai This show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Ben Montoya, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrator Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck.  Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart.  Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

In recent months, the open vs closed, and US vs China discussions on model ownership and sovereign/local AI have heated up to a fever pitch. So it is very very good news that Poolside AI are finally emerging with new models, like Laguna S 2.1, that are beating Thinking Machines' recent release nearly 10 times their size.Poolside's recent tech report got a lot of praise due to their level of detail, and Vibhu first covered Laguna's recent technical report on our paper club:From spending $12 million building language models for code before the world cared to creating a Model Factory that can take a model from pre-training to release in eight weeks, Eiso Kant has spent more than a decade betting that code is the path to AGI. In this episode, the Poolside co-founder joins swyx and Vibhu to explain why ChatGPT felt like vindication, why Poolside embraced open weights and open research, and why he would rather live in a world with 100 foundation model companies than five even if Poolside were one of the five.We go deep on Poolside's Model Factory: the engineering systems behind 10,000–20,000 experiments per month, streaming data directly into training, reproducible experimentation, low-precision compute, and agents that increasingly write code, launch jobs, evaluate results, and modify the pipelines used to train future models. Eiso also unpacks their recent launch Laguna S, why persistence, verification, and backtracking may matter more than raw intelligence, how much capability remains inside smaller models, why reinforcement learning will move earlier into pre-training, and why next-token prediction is still extracting too little from the web.We also discuss model-harness co-design, Poolside's path from coding agents to AGI, why Eiso thinks MCP and traditional tool calls are “stupid,” the real economics behind frontier-model training, Poolside's $500 million raise, open-source AI, regulation, NVIDIA and TSMC's influence, engineering productivity in the agent era, high-agency teams, and hiring at Poolside.We discuss:* How Andrej Karpathy's RNN work inspired Eiso to start building language models for code in 2015* Why Eiso spent four years and $12 million pursuing an idea before the market cared* Why ChatGPT felt like vindication and brought Poolside back to open source* Why Eiso would prefer 100 foundation model companies over an oligopoly of five* The difference between releasing open weights and publishing genuinely open research* Why Poolside deliberately built a global research organization outside the Bay Area talent war* Why model building is ultimately 90% engineering* The Model Factory: Poolside's end-to-end system for rapidly training and improving models* How fewer than 70 researchers run roughly 10,000–20,000 experiments each month* How Poolside moved from six-month model cycles to five- and eight-week launches* Why streaming data directly into training unlocked faster experimentation* How immutable data, versioned code, and reproducibility enable rigorous model research* Why Eiso wants capable researchers to leave their labs and become Poolside's competitors* Why 95% of model building can be reduced to better data or compute efficiency* Laguna S and why persistence, verification, and backtracking can outperform raw intelligence* Why smaller models may handle far more knowledge work than previously expected* Why reinforcement learning will move earlier into pre-training* Why next-token prediction is still failing to extract enough knowledge from the web* Why distillation and environments have become the AI industry's favorite “drugs”* Why mid-training is really an early form of curriculum design* Low-precision training, networking bottlenecks, and the next gains in compute efficiency* Laguna S: 118 billion total parameters, 8 billion active, and eight weeks from training to launch* Why model builders can often evaluate a new checkpoint within its first 30 minutes* Model versus harness: where agent capabilities actually come from* Why Poolside sees coding and long-horizon software tasks as a path to AGI* Why Eiso thinks MCP and traditional tool calls are “stupid”* Why future agents will write scripts instead of choosing from dozens of predefined tools* The case for minimal harnesses, containers, and model freedom* Why Poolside is prioritizing vision but does not expect to work on audio soon* Why language may be the most compute-efficient modality for encoding knowledge and reasoning* The real cost of model development and why the final training run is anticlimactic* The story behind the Poolside name and why it represents refusing to lower ambitions* How Poolside raised $500 million while investors still questioned whether AGI was real* Why intelligence could become the world's most demanded and commoditized resource* When open models may become too capable to release without restrictions* Why unilateral AI safety does not work in a globally competitive environment* How regulation could accidentally lock in an oligopoly of two or three AI companies* NVIDIA, TSMC, and the hardware systems underpinning foundation-model progress* Why reinforcement-learning wall-clock time is one of Poolside's biggest bottlenecks* Why Poolside trains models from scratch instead of simply distilling larger models* How AI changes the way companies should measure engineering productivity* Why agency may become the most important quality for employees in the AI era* How leaders align high-agency people through shared goals and clear constraints* Hiring across research, post-training, pre-training, architecture, evals, and engineering at PoolsideEiso KantLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eisokantX: https://x.com/eisokantPoolside: https://poolside.aiTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:00:54 Karpathy, RNNs, and Building Code Models Before Transformers00:02:26 The $12M Failure and ChatGPT Vindication00:03:39 Open Source and the Case for 100 Foundation Model Companies00:09:22 Open Weights, Open Research, and Poolside's Global Team00:16:04 The Model Factory: Why Model Building Is 90% Engineering00:20:19 Agents, Automated Experiments, and Early Signs of RSI00:24:04 Streaming Data, Reproducibility, and Scientific Rigor00:30:35 Creating More Foundation Model Companies00:36:07 Laguna S: Persistence vs. Raw Intelligence00:43:01 Reinventing Pre-Training, RL, and Curriculum Design00:52:33 Low-Precision Training and Squeezing More From Smaller Models00:58:37 Model Harnesses, Coding Agents, and the Path to AGI01:09:26 Why MCP and Traditional Tool Calls Are “Stupid”01:13:04 Vision, Multimodality, and Why Language Still Matters01:18:15 Scaling Models and the Real Economics of Training01:20:40 Why Poolside Is Called Poolside and Raising $500M01:27:37 Open Models, AI Safety, and the Risk of an Oligopoly01:33:53 NVIDIA, TSMC, and the Reinforcement-Learning Bottleneck01:41:52 Smaller Models, Distillation, Engineering Productivity, and HiringTranscriptIntroduction: Eiso Kant, Poolside, and Open ModelsSwyx [00:00:00]: All right, we're here in the studio with Eiso Kant from Poolside, together with Vibhu. Welcome.Eiso Kant [00:00:08]: Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys. Good to be here.Swyx [00:00:10]: Yeah, fresh on the plane. You texted me, you were like, “Hey, I'm on my way to SF.” I was like, “You're on a plane right now, right?” Like, hey.Eiso Kant [00:00:16]: I know. After I texted you, I realized that probably coming in with major jet lag was gonna offer some fun experiences today, but let's do it.Swyx [00:00:23]: I mean, I think the thing I would tell guests is that they don't have to prepare that much because if you're truly working on this every single day, then even, like, what you hazily remember is going to be new for a lot of the audience that don't live in your world every day, right? so 10 years ago, you did a talk at Google Slush, talking about the democratization of AI. and, now here you are, like, open sourcing an incredible new model that we're gonna talk about. But I guess, like, what got you into democratization of AI? Like, it's not obvious from your LinkedIn or something.From Karpathy's RNN Post to SourcedEiso Kant [00:00:57]: No, it's not at all. I don't think it's obvious how I got in this space. I owe getting into this space to Andrej Karpathy.Eiso Kant [00:01:05]: In 2015, he wrote an article called “The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Recurrent Neural Nets.”Swyx [00:01:10]: Neural Nets, yep.Eiso Kant [00:01:11]: And that article, I read it, and I pivoted my startup at the time overnight to working on RNNs, and later LSTMs and Transformer models to be able to write code. If you go to this article and you scroll down, you can start seeing, like, this was the precursor to what ended up becoming language models. So, at least when he was character-level language models that were starting to predict letters, he has an example out here. There's a little Paul Graham generator, and you can read it, and the text makes sense, but it doesn't. and there's a little-- There's an example of code a little bit further down. Yeah, so Shakespeare.Swyx [00:01:47]: Shakespeare.Swyx [00:01:49]: CoolEiso Kant [00:01:49]: And for some reason, I read this, and I went down the rabbit hole of learning everything I could about RNNs and LSTMs, right? This is Transformer paper. And I had built a completely unreasonable belief, that neural nets should be able to generalize to anything and everything, and that language should be able to generalize, to a lot of things that are intelligent and the ability to write code. And so I started building Sourced, which was a fully open source company trying to build, what we used to call machine learning on code, language models on code. And we spent about four or five years on this, till the end of 2019. And that sounds really cool today, but back then, no one cared.Eiso Kant [00:02:29]: Right? Like, no one cared. We were in the dark. Like, we did things along the way. We tried applying convolutional neural nets to, like, the structure of code. We were. when attention came out, we were applying it to LSTMs, and then the Transformer paper came out. And it - it wasn't obvious, and what we missed throughout that entire journey, that we were on the right track, but we should have just kept scaling up. And today, to all of us, the scaling laws and scaling up seems like the most obvious thing. But having spent four or five years of my life on working on language models on code, it wasn't obvious. So I have a lot of respect to folks at Google and OpenAI and others who took that confidence and kept going. we failed ultimately at the time, and it was, like, biggest failure of my career, right? You blew $12 million of investors' money, which was a lot back then.Swyx [00:03:18]: Yep.Eiso Kant [00:03:19]: You spent, still a lot, but, And you spent years with, like, a group of 40 people just obsessing over this problem. And life took a different turn, And it was, and family became a focus, and I kept my heads down and really, didn't really look at language models for the following two years. big mistake considering Following years are gonna be really interesting. And then ChatGPT came out And it was like a vindication. It's like people started texting me. I found, like, my old, work decks and these old talks. And throughout that whole journey, we,ChatGPT, Vindication, and Returning to Open SourceEiso Kant [00:03:56]: We really had a strong point of view at the time that, like, as you're building more capable intelligence, it should be open and open source.Eiso Kant [00:04:04]: When we started Poolside, that wasn't the case at all, and I wanna be very open about it. When we started Poolside, we were like, there was a premise of two things. One is this technology is not gonna stop compounding in capabilities. I think to most people obvious today, but three-plus years ago when we started, most people were still arguing if these were stochastic parrots or not.Eiso Kant [00:04:23]: And the second was that reinforcement learning was gonna be the biggest driver for LLM capabilities. Today, very obvious. Three years ago, was not an opinion held or direction held at either OpenAI or Google or Anthropic or others. And so people looked down on us a little bit. They were like, “ is this really gonna work?” And so we just started working the problem, and we never really thought about open source again. We just kept our heads down and we built our, like, knowledge, understanding from scratch, right? We didn't roll out of an existing lab. So we picked up the papers and started writing code and figuring things out.Eiso Kant [00:04:59]: And it wasn't until the beginning of this year that me and my founder, Jason, picked up the open source conversation again.Eiso Kant [00:05:07]: And if you go back to some of the early things on our website, it was very straightforward. It was we wanna get to AGI, we wanna support a world of abundance, and we wanna be the first company that gets there.Eiso Kant [00:05:20]: But we started talking at the beginning of this year because it became obvious that the world was going in a direction that was starting to like, pick at us a little bit. Like, it didn't, this didn't happen overnight. It was, like, a little bit we were seeing this and we're like, “Okay, The world's going down a path.” And Throughout this journey, there was something that I used as a, as an analogy or thing. So I said well, if I go back to back in those days, 2015 or 2016, we're working on this, and I picked up a fi book off the shelf, and I was reading the book about 2035. AGI is achieved, and the story would be over the following, decades. And it would have that first chapter where everyone's trying to figure things out. You'd get the chapter of ChatGPT coming out And then you would get to the chapter where the world was at a fork in the road, and the one that it picked was one where three or four or a handful of companies were going to create all of intelligence moving forward.Eiso Kant [00:06:21]: And when I thought about that story, it felt like a dystopian fi book, not a utopian fi book. And the reality is, I'm a utopian fi guy. Like, and so We took a step back and said, “Hey, can we play a role here?” Now it was easy for us to do so because we were not at the frontier.Eiso Kant [00:06:41]: If we were at the frontier, I don't think we could have changed our mind. and I don't mean this like it's when the moment there's too much capital involved, too much expectations, you've built up things, right? We're a small team, just improving and improving. And so we knew that we could make that decision now, but it would be a lot harder to make as we got closer and closer to the frontier and caught up to others. And did a lot of soul-searching and a lot of conversations, and said, “No, this makes sense,” Even if there's big unanswered questions, like how the hell do you build a business model with foundation models about open source? Big open-ended question that we do not fully have the answer to yet, right? At what point do you no longer wanna release open source models because misuse of models has, real potential risks associated with it? how is the government gonna respond to open source? but I think it all just came down to one thing, and I'll stop the monologue, is the fact that I rather live in a world that has 100 foundation model companies than a world that has five, even if I was one of the five. And the smallest and most meaningful contribution we can make for 100 to exist is to open up our research and open up, like, our weights right now and figure out along the way how we can, like, do more.Neo-Labs, Model Choice, and the Token EconomySwyx [00:08:01]: Yeah. I think if anything, over the past three years, that has become a bit more true. you are one of a cohort of Neo labsEiso Kant [00:08:10]: YeahSwyx [00:08:10]: That people are now calling that. And, we're, we're doing this on the day that Thinky launched their, new model and you are outperforming them on their, on some benchmarks that they released, right? Like, they just don't have it yet. so it goes to show that I think, like, this is one of those things where, like, there is room for multiple players, and you are seeing a little bit more of the future. Maybe more like 20, not 100, but, like, you are one of the 20.Eiso Kant [00:08:36]: I really hope so, right? I think we I'm, I'm excited about their release, and I'm excited about everyone releasing because, like, ultimately, like, choice competition is both gonna drive progress in the right direction. But the fact that like, we create models and while we all, drink out of the same well of data effectively, we do introduce very different behaviors and biases in our models. Some are intended biases, some are completely unintended biases.Swyx [00:09:03]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:09:03]: And if we shape up in an ecosystem in the world where open models are gonna be a part of the token economy, like, I don't think there's any question about it anymore Then we want to be able to live in a world where companies, countries, people can choose and say, “Hey, I am most aligned and I trust most this provider for these things.”Swyx [00:09:25]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:09:26]: I think more than just one of the 20 Neo labs, up until recently, most of open source innovation was coming from the Chinese labs, right? So there's the DeepSeek of the West. Is it today? Okay, maybe it's thinking machines reflection, but there aren't many, right? So, one of the things you guys started in France, Europe, but very much now you're taking that American standpoint and more than just that, the point is the Chinese models that we see, they're not super open research. the work you put out is, I think, some of the best. So every few months you get not only frontier models, but also here's a breakdown blog, paper, technical report of here's everything for state of the art to build, frontier intelligence and you're filling that gap too, right? So not just only open weight, not just Western, but also pretty open research.Open Weights vs. Open ResearchEiso Kant [00:10:20]: No, I appreciate it. Look, I think it's, I think it's the most meaningful contribution, right? Weights are a binary. Let's call them what they are. Yes, we can modify them, we can change them, but, like, giving someone the weights does not allow them ultimately to recreate what you're doing, right? And so now there's challenges around releasing data sets, challenges around like releasing certain things, but being able to share your research, like, right, how do we do it? What are the lessons we learned that we spent, tens of thousands of experiments of compute on? I think very much so. One correction though, Vibhu, and I say this because it's been haunting us for quite a few years. We from day zero were an American company.Swyx [00:10:55]: Yeah. They movedPoolside's Global Team and American Company StorySwyx [00:10:56]: To France.Eiso Kant [00:10:56]: So the story once and for all is very. We start as an American company. We have always been an American company, and early on we made a very conscious decision. We said, “We're not gonna hire any researchers in the Bay Area. We're gonna look for talent everywhere else in the world.” and that is everything from Middle Americas, Seattle to, Serbia, and to Taiwan and Singapore and other places. And it was because we took a view that this was gonna become a talent war for this, and I think it has over the years now. Three years ago, that wasn't fully obvious yet. I think today it very much is. And we also realized that, like, some of the world's most capable people with, like, the most interesting, innovative ideas were not just gonna be here. And so it led us to create like a fully remote company. and we ended up opening an office in Paris and London and different places and we have a lot of the team in the US and a lot of team outside. But we always took this view of like, we're an American company, but if we want the best of the best to work with us, we need to take a global view. Now we do also have people here in Silicon Valley, like the company's grown and others, but I think one of the things that, it slowed us down at the beginning, but it has sped us up now, and it's why you're seeing like the progress, I think, on our models and the cadence at which we release, is because we didn't roll out of an existing lab. Right? we didn't, we didn't have a lot of the information that's freely flowing around here at the time. We just took this point of view as like, “Okay, well, let's just work the problem. Let's just go and, like, read the few papers that are out there, and let's just figure this stuff out.” And we made some hilarious mistakes in model training because of that over the yearsEiso Kant [00:12:35]: Like especially in the first 12 months. there's a few that I think still haunt me and scare me. We can talk about them later. but it created a, like, a resiliency and persistency in the team, right? with extremely few people have left us over the years, that, like, told us, “Okay, we can do this.” When we first wrote our first training code base completely from scratch, it wasn't a fork of any open source. It was just like, “Okay, let's build it from scratch.” I remember we had this one moment where we spent three weeks working out an optimizer bug. Like, it was like training just couldn't get stable. We, like, obsessed over it, and we thought, like, maybe we were wrong. Maybe we should have just forked this repo, or we should have. But then when we solved it, I still remember at the time we were like five people in the company. when we solved it, we were like, “Oh, we can do things,” like if we're just willing to work hard. and I think that culture with a very strong engineering bias has helped us, like, get to where we were. And so there's this notion of open source and talent and these things. I think we, We just took different decisions from a different starting point. and I think we are lucky. I do want to definitely call it lucky. And there was a lot of hard work at the team that now, like, that's starting to show up in results.Swyx [00:13:52]: Just ‘cause we probably won't revisit this again, but, and this is a fun recruiting challenge if someone knows the answer. What was the bug? And then we won't tell the solution, but we'An Optimizer Bug and the Value of Building From ScratchEiso Kant [00:14:01]: So the - This - You're gonna test my memory here,Swyx [00:14:04]: Oh, okayEiso Kant [00:14:04]: So but I thinkSwyx [00:14:05]: DirectlyEiso Kant [00:14:05]: I think I can recall. So if you, so if you look at, So if you take like Adam as an optimizer, you have epsilonSwyx [00:14:12]: YeahEiso Kant [00:14:13]: Which is, right, like in the denominatorSwyx [00:14:14]: Momentum and weights. YeahEiso Kant [00:14:15]: Is exactly, in the denominator. And at the time, if I recall, you looked at like the early Llama papers and things like that. People were juicing epsilon, like, quite a bit. Like, they were, like, adding, I don't know if it was E minus four or whatever, like a high value for epsilon.Eiso Kant [00:14:31]: And if you think about this during training, it's like a bit weird and counterintuitive that we're adding noise to our optimizer by just adding effectively, like, a random number in the denominator, right? Like behind the decimal point. And I don't recall the exact bug, but it had - What I remember is once we solved it, we no longer had to juice epsilon as much as, like, was happening in the Llama paper and other places. and it was like one of those fundamental moments where we had trusted this paper that was out there, and we're like, “Oh, no, it has to be this way. It has to have this high value of epsilon.” But it made no sense to us intuitively. Like, why do you have to have this so high? Like, if you're just trying to avoid division by zero, why can't the value be extremely small? and that was like one of those moments where you realize like, okay, finding things out from scratch yourself builds a better intuition. Because the one thing you learn very quickly with model building is that your intuitions that you start with are gonna get beaten up so hard.Eiso Kant [00:15:33]: Right? Like - It's such an experimental science, that the things that seem obvious, you very quickly get to learn, like, you were wrong, and hopefully you figure out why, and sometimes you don't even.Swyx [00:15:45]: Yeah. yeah, so, one of the reasons that you, when you released your new models, Vibhu got really excited. I mean, everyone got really excited. But Vibhu led our paper club on it, and you guys sawEiso Kant [00:15:58]: YeahSwyx [00:15:58]: Obviously. maybe talk through some lessons learned in that, whatever you can disclose. we can focus on the model factory stuff, whatever you think is a good starting point.Model Building as EngineeringEiso Kant [00:16:08]: So I would say that our view from very early on in the company was that model building is ultimately 90% engineering.Eiso Kant [00:16:18]: And I think we all know it in the industry because if you look at where's every researcher spending their time, they're spending their time writing code, right? Looking at data and writing code. And so we said, okay, The state at the moment, like three years ago, was bash scripts and Slurm and spaghetti code bases for training and, like, data pipelines that were patched together. And we looked at this and said, “Well, ultimately, model building is a process.” You're going from raw data, right? Like training raw material, the web, et cetera. you're doing a whole bunch of filtering, cleaning up, transformations, analyzing. These days, that's, far more complex than it was three years ago. then you're training a model, which is effectively a large distributed systems problem, right? Across hardware that has still-- It's become a lot more reliable. It was extremely flaky back then. and now with every new generation, we get our new sets of challenges. And then you go into the next stages, right? There was no training back then, but, like, you got, your post-training and then your reinforcement learning. And so we looked at this and we said, “Well, this looks like an industrialized process. This looks like an end process, that every single part of it has its machinery,” right? If it's your big data pipelines, if it's your crawling ingestion of the web, if it's your, large-scale distributed training, and then you've got your reliability. And we said, “Well, why don't we take some of the world's smartest distributed systems engineers that we knew and make them part of the process of research from day zero?” Not retrofitting it later on, but, like, really from the beginning. And that became our model factory. And so our model factory started with a handful of components. Today, it's thousands of components, and I try to equate it to, if you think about, like, someone who was at the very early days of Foxconn, if they had been there for the following, decade, they would be able to rebuild Foxconn because they saw every decision that led to building that system and all the complexity. If you and I walk into Foxconn today, no chance.The Model Factory and Experiment VelocityEiso Kant [00:18:18]: Right? Because we don't have the lineage and history of decisions that led to that. And so we built early on from the beginning- with a team that really understood that, well, the metric that we are optimizing for is the speed of an idea from a researcher to an experimental result that we can trust to then being part of the next model training.Eiso Kant [00:18:42]: And in the. And because it's such an experimental science, ultimately, in the beginning when it wasn't that complex, you could patch your way around it, right? But now, at any foundation model company, you are running. I mean, we're a small team, right? We're less than 70 researchers, another 35 engineers. and we are running, I haven't checked the latest count, but far more than 10,000, maybe 10 to 20,000 experiments a month that we cut. And so if you look at that scale of every model run that is, like it's ultimately it's, it's you need to be able to trust it as an infra problem. And so what we have now done over the years is gotten really good at that, and just by working it and improving it and obsessing over those end decisions. So now what that means is that you looked up Laguna XS 2 that we launched. It was five weeks from the beginning of training to launch. The model that we're gonna talk about today was eight weeks from start of training, to launch. We started the next model literally yesterday because we now finished the post-training required for the model we're launching, next week or by the time this comes out today. and we move that compute to the much larger Laguna M model that we're now training. And so the model should be an artifact of someone's process. It shouldn't be really a thing in itself. Like, and we treat this like the way you would look at like a SpaceX factory where, yes, the first rocket, really hard to build, but the much harder challenge was building the factory. And now they're rolling off, and no one is really thinking about the next launch anymore. So it's just another launch, it's another launch, another rocket comes off. And that's what we're trying to do with model building.Eiso Kant [00:20:22]: And what has been, which was not planned from day zero, it was in the back of our mind like this will happen one day, is that when you build a really good end model factory with really good APIs and really good engineering systems, Well, what is it perfect for? It's perfect for agents.Agents Inside the Model FactoryEiso Kant [00:20:40]: Because agents are now starting to take over more and more work in our model factory.Vibhu [00:20:43]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:20:44]: So I look at the screens when I walk, like when we're, we come together, in our monthly, we do monthly onsites, and I walk behind people's screens and I stop by and I talk to our researchers. And the default is all of these different agents running on their screen that are writing the code. They're launching the jobs. They're evaluating the results that are coming back from the model runs. They are, making the changes. And we're still in the driver's seat. We're still coming up with the ideas. We're still helping with the debugging. But more and more, and this is right now very profound on the data side of our pipelines in both pre and post and the synthetic data pipelines, it's starting to become more on the architecture side as well. You're starting to see these twinklings of what RSI is gonna look like.Eiso Kant [00:21:27]: And that's. So when we talk about, like to your question about our models, every talk about the model factory, And my coolest example of these things is always that when we kick off a new run, doesn't matter if it's a training like big run or if it's now a post, like one of 10 post-training versions we do for like release or many experiments, is that at any given moment, the changes that somebody made that they had experimental results from the day before make it into that run.Eiso Kant [00:21:57]: So there's not like a cutoff 90 days before. Like no, it's like literally from that moment because we can now trust the machine enough. And then you also have to invest in the reliability. So one of my favorite metrics about like Laguna S is that there was no call events, Right? Like completely zero. And we haven't had a meaningful call event, like something to wake up for, as far as I recall this entire year. now there is one asterisk to that. In usually the first six hours of launching a new model run, something breaks because you set a config wrong, you made a small mistake, et cetera. So that's usually there's a little bit of intervention, but that's always within like call periods, right? Not on call. And I think that's starting to now compound. So the model we're releasing now, I love it. It's amazing, but we're already onto the next one. and I think that's the way it should be.Laguna, Five-Week Builds, and Zero On-Call EventsVibhu [00:22:50]: Hey, I also just wanna point out, so for context, this was like a month ago. we found it in the tech report, so we just came in with, “Okay, new model's dropped. Haven't heard about it.” We wereEiso Kant [00:23:02]: Yeah, we're very used to doing this every few months.Vibhu [00:23:03]: We're, we're very much like, “ okay, look, it's like, on par with Kimi, DeepSeek, whatnot, the small ones, Gemma level. Oh, it's a very cool paper on what goes into building.” And then we hit this page, right? Like literally page two of tech report is, “This process allowed us to build the small model from scratch to delivery within five weeks applying the lessons”. And then I'm like, oh, this paper is not about here's a tech report of benchmarks and here's how many tokens it was trained on. Like for people that wanna dive more from what we're not gonna discuss on the podcast, it's all laid out here, right? FromEiso Kant [00:23:38]: YeahVibhu [00:23:39]: Custom software that agents can use to interface with training code, training data.Eiso Kant [00:23:45]: Yeah. Well, link the paper correctly, so yeah.Vibhu [00:23:47]: Yeah. All that stuff. read the paper here, but,Technical Report Principles and Streaming Training DataEiso Kant [00:23:50]: But I would like to. I love principles, and I think that is a good starting off point for maybe telling some stories. Maybe we can go one by one past the principles. I'll just call out that Dagster just got bought by a Prefect.Vibhu [00:24:01]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:24:01]: Isn't it fun? But yes, I'm very familiar with Dagster. just anything where like they trigger some story.Vibhu [00:24:07]: So, well, I would say, well, experiments code's obvious, but I think one of my favorite things is, I don't know where it is in here, but early on, and I still think this is the case a lot of foundation model companies, people prepare their training data sets, they get packaged up, then they get copied over to a training cluster distributed across all of the nodes, and then training starts.Vibhu [00:24:30]: And we looked at this like three years ago and we were like That makes no senseEiso Kant [00:24:36]: You lose so much time because the moment you have to rematerialize the data set, you have to make a change, you have to fix something, et cetera, you've got all this time of like repackaging it, right? Toca- tokenizing it, repacking it, moving it over to a cluster, then distributing it across the nodes. The bigger your clusters are, you start using fancy like torrent-like algorithms to like distribute your data. So why aren't we streaming data into training? Right? Something that's very common and like just basicVibhu [00:25:00]: Like just in timeEiso Kant [00:25:01]: Just in time, like good computer science like principle. And that was one of the first things that I think unlocked - the model factory. Because the moment you start thinking about, well, a training job, it doesn't matter if it's a big hero run or a small like, post-training experiment, consumes a certain number of tokens per second, right? And it's not a lot, right? From a like a data, moving data perspective. So we said, well, we have our training cluster, and then we've got like our AWS kinda setup where we can build these amazing big data pipelines. We can set things up. We use Spark underneath the hood, like all these things.Vibhu [00:25:36]: But when you say AWS, it's not actual AWS, it's your internal AWS.Eiso Kant [00:25:39]: It's our internal-- No, it's our internal like just running like our infrastructureVibhu [00:25:42]: Site web servicesEiso Kant [00:25:43]: Exactly. Our stuff running on like an AWS account or on like any hardware, right?Vibhu [00:25:47]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:25:48]: And so once we made that shift into I can stream data into training, all of a sudden you realize a lot of things unlock. Because now you don't have to wait for the whole data set to materialize.Immutable Data, Experiments as Code, and Scientific RigorEiso Kant [00:26:00]: You now all of a sudden when you're running data experiments about mixing data, it's a config. Because you've got these data sources that are coming in, and you just - we have this service called Blender that's in the report, where we then say, “Okay, for this run, I want 20% of this source, 10% of this source. I want this much, so many epochs of repetition. I want this to be, shuffled in a certain way,” and your training job can start while the rest of the data is even still materializing. also what it does is because all of this underneath-- So for us, we treated the data layer underneath as like an immutable data layer, and that was really important. Like experiments as code, immutable data layer means that you can always go back and understand literally down to the single token at which cursor it went in on which version of the code.Vibhu [00:26:47]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:26:48]: And it took us a I have to admit, like the first year of Poolside, we understood that engineering had to get great, But we didn't understand yet, that this is ultimately in support of like a good rigorous scientific progress. We were quite a - We were a very small number of people, so a lot of it was YOLO ideas and YOLO runs.Vibhu [00:27:08]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:27:09]: And we built great infra for the YOLO runs. But once we realized that we treated data as immutable and code as always versioned, and you could always track and trace every experiment end to end perfectly, you could repeat everything perfectly, right? You have perfect reproducibility. I can still reproduce runs from two years ago if I wanted to, right? It enables the scientific progress, like the scientific process, and I think that took us probably about a year and a half into the company to figure out. We also had some great hires, like our head of applied research, Nikolai, who joined us from Yandex, who'd been working on language models since like the early 2020s, I think brought that into the company of like, “Hey, we wanna have even more rigor.” And then once we kinda had the combination of like increasingly more capable platform that allowed people to do more, but had this immutability, we were able to start “Okay, every experiment is truly an ablation. We truly need to understand it.” And I think we became much more scientifically rigorous in the last couple of years, and the infra underneath enabled it. and then there's just fun stuff like, andVibhu [00:28:16]: Yeah, a lot of it's fun, like even just the, one, you share all the ablations, two, picking the data sets, right? There's like a random small paragraph in here where it's just like, “Oh yeah, training data, we have some, we have an auto mixer.” it trains eight small models, scales them up, picks the training data set. We don't even need to look at it. I'm like, “Wow, a lot of engineering rigor there.” And there's just, there's just a lot in here.Publishing Research and Giving BackEiso Kant [00:28:40]: Yeah, and it'- and look, and we wanna put out more. Like we, We treat writing papers as something that we haven't earned the right for yet for a long time. So you earn the right to spend time, publishing research once you're at the frontier, because until then, you're catching up, and every minute and hour in this industry matters. Like I obsess over it, not just the wall clock time from idea to result, but just general like time every day that we, waste is one that doesn't allow us to catch up. But in this case, we said, “Okay, we're gonna give ourselves.” I think we gave the team like three or four days while still doing their work, like give everything in there. And to your point earlier, if your stuff, it's easy to like put it out. And so there's so many more things that we wanna talk about over time, and we will definitely start doing. And as we earn more of the right, but also now have like added to our mission that we want more foundation model companies to exist, you'll see us like be way more proactive, and just trying to keep dropping some of those like things that we've learned along the way that can help others like speed up.Vibhu [00:29:40]: Which is the other cool side of this, right? It's, it's not like, back to your point, it's not just here's the benchmarks of our training. If you want to replicate, here's experiments of optimizers, data sets, post-training. you lay out a lot of it here alongside here's your system for how to do it? So it's, it's really like promotingEiso Kant [00:29:59]: No, thank youVibhu [00:29:59]: Other people can do the same.Eiso Kant [00:30:00]: And by the way, I also wanna make clear, right, we have been incredible-- Like we've taken a lot of advantage of the fact of all the open research that others have published, Right? And you mentioned, the Chinese labs, and we I think it's important that there's, from every country and every culture and background, including like Western companies like us, there's different models that come out that people can choose to trust. But I think we do have to give credit where credit's due, right? The incredible Chinese lab have done an amazing job at sharing their research, and we have definitely like been on the receiving end of taking advantage of that. So when you're on the receiving end of something coming to you, I think it's, you also have an obligation to give back.Swyx [00:30:39]: Do you have a favorite or underrated Chinese lab that you wanna shout out? Everyone shout outs DeepSeek.Chinese Labs, Zhipu, and PersistenceEiso Kant [00:30:44]: That's a good question.Swyx [00:30:45]: Moaan obviously for Therapsi. Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:30:48]: Yeah, look, I think, I think obviously everyone's been talking about Zhipu lately, with 5.2. I think what most people don't realize is when they started.Swyx [00:30:59]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:30:59]: Right? They started years before ChatGPT.Swyx [00:31:02]: They just rebranded. YeahEiso Kant [00:31:03]: And so, I've like, I remember how hard it was to work on these things Before the rest of the world got excited about it. And so I have an immense amount of respect for people, who were working on improving models when it wasn't the sexy thing to do, when believing in LLMs, was gonna get you ridiculed. I remember like back in 2016 when we were doing what we'd call, machine learning on code with some of these models. we would-- people would just laugh at us, like they'd be like, “This makes no sense. Like why are you wasting all these, like, millions of dollars on trying to figure this out?” And so I would say they're probably the one that, I think deserves a shout-out, not just because their latest model is very good, but because they fought to get here. And I think, I think every foundation model company it takes time to get here, right? It took us three years to get to the model that we're, that we're now gonna be releasing. and now the time in between the models is coming, is counted in weeks. It's no longer counted in months or years. But this stuff's hard. and if we can make it a little bit easier for the next person, like we should all do so. Because if we don't do so, we're, we've got a small window before models are really impacting recursive self-improvement to a level where catching up otherwise might become unfeasible. And we should try to, in that window, encourage as many labs or however we wanna call them, like to start. And so one of my currentEiso Kant [00:32:36]: Mission, but qualm is like I wanna encourage whoever is a researcher right now who thinks they can tackle this to go and leave and become my competitor.Eiso Kant [00:32:45]: Like start another foundation model company because I think we need it. I think otherwise we're not gonna be in the world where, I don't want to just be the fifth or the sixth company that wins. I wanna look at a world where there's lots of choice.Starting a Foundation Model CompanyVibhu [00:32:57]: What else do people not see in starting a foundation model? it's, there's a lot of compute, there's a lot of capital required, a lot of compute. You lay out model factory and how to do the training, but there's a lot there, right? That's,Eiso Kant [00:33:10]: Well, look, it's, I in turn-- this is an oversimplification, and I always asterisk it with that because it can land a little bit the wrong way in people's minds. But I think you can sum down, And I saw it, 95% of model building to just doing, you're just doing two things. You're improving data or you're improving compute efficiency. And I know that feels like an oversimplification for the incredible, like, Gifted and skilled work people do. But if you really look at it, like what are we doing? We are looking at data, we're generating new data, we're improving data. and the only way to do that is to look at the data, right? That's a big part of foundation model building. And on the other hand, we come up with these incredible breakthroughs in inference, in architecture, and new attention mechanisms. But what are they really doing? They're bringing compute efficiency. Now, we have definitely had some breakthroughs over the years that allow for more model capabilities. But at the limit, if you could train a large enough model, right, like, and you had infinite compute, we probably-- if you had infinite compute, you'd be at AGI probably already tomorrow.Eiso Kant [00:34:12]: Right? Like it's not. And so, and let me say that infinite compute with infinite ability of much faster networking because networking ends up being more of the bottleneck than compute. But, so I do think that's, those are the main things. And to just realize that this is engineering. I think it's become more obvious, but I think for quite a few years, people have held foundation model companies and researchers and others on this pedestal of like you're doing incredible magic or rocket science, or only like, Nobel laureate physicists can do this. And don't get me wrong, there are some really hard problems that need to be solved, but a lot of the work that all of us are doing on a day Is not sitting down trying to solve a math theorem. A lot of the work that we're doing is just really doing the basics right, writing good code, looking at data, improving it, running experiments, looking at plots, trying to see like, hey, trying to shape our intuitions. And a lot more people could be highly capable researchers. and I think that's, it feels far for people to do so. But I've seen in our own company, we've seen engineers become researchers because the model factory allowed them to be, have a much lower hurdle of running experiments and trying things. And one of the guys on our team who started as an engineer building our agents is a legit reinforcement learning researcher now, making real progress. and that happened in the span of like six months. that would've not been what I think most people assumed was possible, a couple of years ago.Swyx [00:35:46]: Yeah. I think one of the interesting moments is when you can self-host, like, if in a programming language, like if you can compile the language in the language, the equivalent is can you use your own tools, right? You have the pool CLI, you have your own models. presumably you're not only using your own models. There's no way. But like, what's that percentage over time?Laguna S, Persistence, and Behavioral GainsEiso Kant [00:36:10]: This is the first model that we're releasing that is starting to meaningfully contribute to our own work. It's not a it's not state-art model yet. Fable and other, they're, they're very capable models, but Laguna S Is really interesting. I'm gonna pull up the quote. Peng Ming, one of our heads of applied research, said something, last week as the model came out about 10 days ago, much better than we had hoped for or expected. And he said, I have the feeling that a lot of the gains in Laguna S come not from more intelligence, but more from different behavior, more verification, less taking things for granted, not declaring victory early, and being way more persistent. And to be honest, those are more predictive than raw intelligence for success in human also to some degree. And this was, he wrote me this on 5th of July on a Sunday, and it's been burned in my brain ever since because the Laguna S model, as you'll see it and why it does so well on benchmarks and why it does so well in using it on a day basis, is that it's just incredibly persistent. It reasons a lot. I do call that out. We have work to do on making it more efficient. We have to work to do on offering different reasoning modes. But this is the model that has been able to do things that I never thought it could do. A hundred eighteen billion 8B active model, which is not that large. It fits on a DGX Spark and still runs at, thirty, forty tokens a second on a Spark, is able to solve Erdős 397 independently. It's able to do complex programming tasks. It's able to. I asked it this morning to make me a Fi scanner without using any external libraries on my Mac, and it's, like, figuring out, like, the core WLAN API by really persistently trying to understand it without access to the internet. And more, I love vibe checking. I've probably spent eight to ten hours a day with this model for the last ten days.Eiso Kant [00:38:05]: I'm not exaggerating. I was on my eleven-hour flight yesterday. I spent ten hours reading trajectories and traces and, like, of the model.Eiso Kant [00:38:12]: And what I take away from it is exactly what Peng Ming said. We are gonna be able to squeeze so much more out of smaller models than I think we had imagined in the industry because, yes, there's intelligence and larger models are more intelligent. Like, no doubt about it. We should continue to scale up. but the behaviors of being really persistent, of being able to backtrack when you're wrong, of, like, understanding how to interact with your environment show us that we can get a lot more out of it. And this, for me, has created a bit of a Question in my mind the last couple of days. If you think about where we're using models today, right? We are using models, say, for knowledge work. Represents twenty-five percent of the global economy, twenty-five trillion dollars of work.Eiso Kant [00:39:00]: As we scale up models and they become more intelligent, we are excited about using them more and more for pushing the frontier of science.Small Models, Knowledge Work, and CommoditizationEiso Kant [00:39:08]: And if you look at the frontier of science, like true breakthroughs in science, they have been linked, they are linked to more intelligence in many places. Einstein figuring out general relativity is able to bring ideas together that other people would have not brought together. And I think one of the many dimensions of intelligence is the ability to do that, and it's something we clearly see that as models get larger and more capable, they're able to pull more ideas and threads together that a smaller model wouldn't be able to.Eiso Kant [00:39:36]: And we're starting to see examples of that in medicine and, like, in bio and other things. But if you think about the majority of knowledge work that we do, and it includes building software. I'm a software developer at heart first and foremost probably, although I probably can't say it that much anymore as I don't write production code in years, is that what makes us good is our persistence. It's our ability to encounter a problem and backtrack and say, “I need to go figure out this bug. I need to go research this. I need to go look at the documentation. I need to, like, try different, five different ways to see, like, if I can solve it.” But it is not necessarily bringing three ideas together from radically different fields. And so if we are now seeing, and I think Laguna S is an example, that we are able to make a relatively small model much more capable than I had definitely predicted or any previous, like, benchmarks had shown for any model remotely this size or even larger, At least on coding tasks, that it's because of the behaviors. And so now the question I have, and I don't have an answer, it is I know at the limit, so infinite model size, right, extremely large model, and the cost of that model is gonna be very expensive to run. We know this, right? So larger model ROI.Eiso Kant [00:40:52]: So I know that at the very limit, I'm not gonna use the world's largest model one day, quadrillion parameter, whatever crazy, like, scale we scale up, to do a basic coding task. Already today, I'm starting to size down for certain tasks.Eiso Kant [00:41:07]: So it means that there is an optimal. It means there's some curve that goes as we go up to model size for knowledge work, at some point we're at the peak, and after that, the return on investment of using a bigger model, just doesn't make sense.Eiso Kant [00:41:22]: Now, I think the question is, before I would have thought that peak was extremely very far away.Eiso Kant [00:41:30]: This model for me is the first sign that Maybe that peak is At a trillion, five trillion, ten trillion. Maybe we can just squeeze way more out of these models. I'm no longer thinking that we need two or three orders of magnitude on the largest models to be able to, solve knowledge work, the accounting, the legal, the code that we write. And so if that holds true, It is an argument for the commoditization of models. It's an argument that open source can win and, like, succeed in this world. And now it's of course a self-serving argument and it's a hopeful argument, but theoretically at the limit it works. We just have to go discover in the next couple of years of how much more we can squeeze out. Now, I do want to put a big asterisk. This does not mean I'm against scaling models. I think we ultimately only succeed if we scale our models as large as our competition. I do not like. I think we should not put our head in the sand and say we're gonna be king of open source small models. I think that's, It's a out. It's trying to be king of your own kingdom, but not realizing what the rest of the world's doing. All of us rather use a smarter, faster, more model. It's a sign of hope. And so I don't wanna overly state this is a good model. We have a long way to go to get to the state-art. But what hopefully people take away when they use this model is that the behaviors inside of it are what push it to be far more capable, less than necessarily the number of parameters.Pre-Training, Mid-Training, and RL Moving EarlierVibhu [00:43:03]: Is that mostly post-training? LikeEiso Kant [00:43:05]: YesVibhu [00:43:05]: Right.Eiso Kant [00:43:06]: It's entirely post-training.Vibhu [00:43:08]: Are we done improving anything on training? Is, like, training done?Eiso Kant [00:43:12]: No.Vibhu [00:43:12]: Okay.Eiso Kant [00:43:13]: SoVibhu [00:43:13]: I just wanted to cover training, and then we go post-trainingEiso Kant [00:43:15]: Training is not done. I mean, look, there's a part of training of just dealing with skill, right? Every new order of magnitude of model skill, you are going to get new things you gotta solve for. That'- but those are ultimately, engineering challenges.Eiso Kant [00:43:31]: I have a, I would say, a not commonly held opinion that reinforcement learning Will move earlier and earlier into training.Vibhu [00:43:42]: Yeah, training.Eiso Kant [00:43:44]: Not even training. Like training today, right, is, like if you look at - So we've been working on this for years already. and I think the best-- I think the first time we saw it out in public was the DeepSeek Zero paper. this is a year and a half ago, I think, if I recall correctly. where, you can Very early on in a model as it starts capable of being able to use language, et cetera, induce reasoning. and so the question that I have is like, we have this- we have the dataset that's the web. and the web, I think we could arguably say probably has The totality of humanity's knowledge somewhere encoded in different places. It's a huge variance degree of quality, from garbage data, and like once you look at training data, you really get humbled of like what the web is, to like, the most greatest scientific papers and best blog posts and like, best transcripts and whatnot.Eiso Kant [00:44:39]: And so now What we are trying to figure out, and have been doing a lot of work on, and it's a place where maybe not as open as we're on other things, but we will become more over time. we've been spending a couple of years really doing research on how can we turn the web into not just next token prediction, but into a way to teach the model to think earlier in its training. and I think there's a huge amount of gold to be found there. I think we are right now in, we've got some drugs in the industry. One of the drugs is distillation. Another drug is, more environments. Like, and they're great, and they make us feel good, and they make the models better, and like we're all addicted to them, and we'll use them, right? in various different ways. and but ultimately, I think we are still barely squeezing out of the web what we should be getting out of the web.Eiso Kant [00:45:33]: I think just next token prediction during training is not enough.Eiso Kant [00:45:36]: AndVibhu [00:45:38]: YeahEiso Kant [00:45:38]: I think we'll see some very interesting things still happen. and that RL in post-training to induce behaviors, to improve things, like I think - the whole world knows how to do this now. I think we're, we're scaling it up. Everyone is. But I wonder if we need to go as far as we're going today with environments. I'm not sure yetVibhu [00:46:01]: You mean we're going too far?Eiso Kant [00:46:02]: I'm, I'm not sure if the path to AGI is justVibhu [00:46:06]: Is more environmentEiso Kant [00:46:07]: More environments.Vibhu [00:46:08]: It seems like a never-ending, “Okay, I want instruction manual for this table, right? Am I gonna environment out building furniture? Or are we just gonna tail end like we need some general solution?”Eiso Kant [00:46:19]: I think there is, I think there's an ability to generalize more from the web. but I also am very encouraged, like when I look at Laguna S and, which is post-training is, well, is the big impact there. and I see like, oh, wait a second, just by making some of these behaviors much better, we're able to get so much more out of it. It just changes a little bit the way you think about intelligence.Vibhu [00:46:40]: Yeah. The analogy people draw often is the RL phase is where you don't learn as much new knowledge. You shiftEiso Kant [00:46:46]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:46:46]: Yeah. So, you shift distribution, and you can have it reason towards what you want. on your point about training, a lot of training is still just continue training in a domain, say medicine, then you do RL. So still justEiso Kant [00:47:00]: It's just better data, right? Like, I mean, training, ooh, I like how we invented this word. Like it's effectively just like,Vibhu [00:47:06]: Second phaseEiso Kant [00:47:07]: It's the second phase of training With like a really dumb way to do a curriculum. But like ultimately, what you'd want is a curriculum from token zero to token 30 whatever or 40 trillion tokens that really truly is the optimal curriculum for the model to learn. But training is essentially a stage curriculum on the web because we do not have to compute, And, effectively to try to ablate the perfect curriculum, right? And so I'm pretty sure that you'll start to see people talking soon about some other term, and there's two or - ‘cause now we do this, right? We talk stage two and stage three and stage four training and like. But ultimately, all we're doing is we're trying to assign a curriculum to the web data that we have to allow the model to learn better. I think at some point, as things get compute, as models get cheaper to run, as the next generations of compute, this will become more of a continuous spectrum. I also think the reason, by the way, you have training and like stage two and stage three is organizational, Right? It'- this is, I think, a thing where-- that we really try to avoid with the model factory is like Training exists because there's a training team now, right? There's people, or like people in training decide to focus on like a training effort. but what you really want is engineering and scale of experiments that allows for a much more continuous spectrum that you don't, you have infinite stages. Now, we're not there. Compute's not there. Organization design is not there for it yet. but I think we'll get there. we'll look back on a couple of years and be like, “Oh my God, it was so cute that we did our training data like this in such a like naïve way. Like we barely ordered it. We didn't really do a good job at likeCurriculum, Auto Research, and New ObjectivesVibhu [00:48:48]: The building that curriculum will get you that in the industry.Eiso Kant [00:48:51]: And I'll confirm that, when I talk to some researchers that this is a lot of the focus now is like how does training change and what is the next objective other than, next token prediction. I assume you don't have the answers, but you have some ideas.Vibhu [00:49:02]: We have some ideas. We're not ready to talk about it yet.Eiso Kant [00:49:05]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:05]: We've been working on them for years, and I think that's the one thing that's also like you asked earlier about, like what's not obvious about building a foundation model company is that you are constantly balancing the table stakes work, the recipe worksEiso Kant [00:49:19]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:19]: Versus like your, my crazyEiso Kant [00:49:22]: Pure researchVibhu [00:49:22]: Breakthrough.Eiso Kant [00:49:22]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:22]: Pure research and finding that balance and adjusting the percentage to it based on where you are in the race is really important.Eiso Kant [00:49:31]: I mean, so like, this is a nice way. I was gonna bring up auto research at some pointVibhu [00:49:35]: YesEiso Kant [00:49:35]: As another Andrej invention, or coinage, which is like, I honestly, like how many objective functions can there be, right? Like just try 1,000 of them, set it running, whatever.Vibhu [00:49:47]: Man, it's alsoEiso Kant [00:49:48]: Like what you're looking for. You're looking for loss curves like that, likeVibhu [00:49:51]: It's also a thing people take bets on, right? When you say more Neo labs, you're doing a version of we'll do foundation models, scale them up, next token predictors. A lot of other Neo labs that we see want to take a completely different approach, right? At some level, you're right. It's all, compute efficiency, and that's the net objective. But some are okay, different architecture, like vastly different amounts of compute spend. So some are different. They're not justEiso Kant [00:50:19]: YeahVibhu [00:50:19]: They're like, 99% not balancing, here's the vanilla and scale up. They're 99% on, here's novel research that'll change everything.Eiso Kant [00:50:27]: And I think, Luke, I think you. It depends when you started as well, right?Pure Research vs. Table StakesVibhu [00:50:30]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:50:30]: When we started, like the novel thing we did was reinforcement learning on code. No long- that's no longer novel by far, but we were like, - that's where we obsessed over when no one believed in RL. So you have to when you start the company, you have to have your own idea. You have to have something that's different that allows you to speed up, right? For us, it was RL to LLMs that later became common, like, Knowledge. But in the beginning, it wasn'tVibhu [00:50:53]: It's cool. this was like your original 2023 blogEiso Kant [00:50:57]: YeahVibhu [00:50:57]: Of purpose.Eiso Kant [00:50:58]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:50:59]: And like you do lay it all out here.Eiso Kant [00:51:01]: We laidVibhu [00:51:01]: The blog is pretty underrated, right? The whole RL on code was very early on.Eiso Kant [00:51:06]: Very early. And even we had to argue with people, like we say here things like to push beyond current capability, to train your own foundation model. We had to argue with people that it mattered that you had your own like, base model. you can fine-tune your way to success, right? major capabilities emerge from training a base model made accurate and useful during fine-tuning.Vibhu [00:51:23]: Which like, for perspective at the time, we knew closed models, OpenAI, Anthropic were huge. The open models we had were like Mistral 7B, a 30B, a 70B.Eiso Kant [00:51:35]: When weVibhu [00:51:35]: YeahEiso Kant [00:51:36]: The date on this thing is wrong. When we published this, it was April 2023. I think this was justVibhu [00:51:42]: YeahEiso Kant [00:51:42]: Happened on a migration, probably found it on archive.org.Vibhu [00:51:45]: Mistral.Eiso Kant [00:51:46]: Mistral had started, we started on the same month, right?Vibhu [00:51:49]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:51:49]: So this wasn't even, there was only, I think, Llama out at the timeVibhu [00:51:52]: SnellEiso Kant [00:51:52]: And that's it, right? And so, but I agree. I think we wan

Full show notes and transcript  - https://bit.ly/4puDkZ9Watch on YouTube - https://youtu.be/uPkDBu9sW7I-----Episode Summary:Dara and Matthew open on the news: OpenAI's GPT-5.6 and its new Sol, Terra and Luna tiers, Fable's return via US export controls and what that precedent means, and the rising cost of AI as companies like Uber burn through their budgets. The main event is the human question: as agents take on more of the routine work, how does the analyst's role change, and where does the human add the most value? They trace the shift from data-wrangling to custodianship of context and judgement, weigh Jevons paradox against job losses, and land on the uncomfortable idea that this time the resource being automated is intelligence itself, so the higher rung we would normally climb to may be the one that vanishes.-----About The Measure Pod:The Measure Pod is your go-to fortnightly podcast hosted by seasoned analytics pros. Join Dara Fitzgerald (Co-Founder at Measurelab) & Matthew Hooson (Head of Engineering at Measurelab) as they dive into the world of data, analytics and measurement, with a side of fun.-----If you liked this episode, don't forget to subscribe to The Measure Pod on your favourite podcast platform and leave us a review. Let's make sense of the analytics industry together!

Not all work happens in writing. Teams that work with photos, videos, and audio need AI that works for them too. This is why, with Dropbox, you can search within multimedia content for key moments and important information—not just text. In this episode, we talk with Appu Shaji and Hicham Badri, two Dropbox machine learning engineers who are part of the team that makes all of this possible. They explain how multimodal search works—from understanding the context of the initial query, to identifying objects and actions in complex scenes—and how they ensure those models work fast, even at Dropbox-scale. ~ ~ ~  Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox. Find, organize, and share your work—all in one place—with context-aware AI from Dropbox. You can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.ai This show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Ben Montoya, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrator Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck.  Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart.  Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

When AI is at its best, the conversations can feel uncanny—almost magical in their accuracy, relevance, and speed. For that you can thank the AI agents that work together behind the scenes to search, reason, and sift through all your content to get you what you need to do your job. We talk with Jongmin Baek and Marta Mendez, two Dropbox machine learning engineers, about building conversational AI that's helpful, useful, and grounded in your team's shared context, so you can spend more time on the work that really matters. ~ ~ ~  Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox. Find, organize, and share your work—all in one place—with context-aware AI from Dropbox. You can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.ai This show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Ben Montoya, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrator Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck.  Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart.  Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

On this episode of Christopher Lochhead: Follow Your Different, we welcome back Ray Wang, Chairman and CEO of Constellation Research, and widely regarded as one of the most insightful technology analysts in the world. In a recent conversation with Christopher Lochhead, Ray Wang shared his unfiltered perspective on the biggest developments shaping the technology landscape today. From the historic SpaceX IPO to the transformative acquisition of Cursor, Ray Wang offered sharp analysis that cuts through the noise and gets to what actually matters for businesses and investors navigating an AI-driven world. The conversation covered topics that most analysts are still catching up on, including why knowledge workers need to rethink their value, what Data Inc companies actually are, and why the context layer above large language models may be the most important competitive battleground of the next decade. What makes Ray Wang’s perspective so valuable is not just his breadth of knowledge but his ability to synthesize experience into wisdom, which is precisely the distinction he draws when talking about why AI cannot replace truly seasoned professionals. You're listening to Christopher Lochhead: Follow Your Different. We are the real dialogue podcast for people with a different mind. So get your mind in a different place, and hey ho, let's go.   Ray Wang on AI, Knowledge Work, and the Commoditization of Expertise Ray Wang makes a clear and compelling distinction between knowledge and wisdom. He argues that knowledge has become a commodity, but wisdom, the ability to take insights and turn them into meaningful action, remains deeply human and increasingly valuable. As AI automates deterministic, repetitive tasks, what rises in importance is judgment, the capacity to learn from failure and connect dots in ways that no model trained exclusively on successful outcomes can replicate. This reframing is critical for anyone worried about AI displacing their career. Ray Wang points out that AI systems today learn only from success, with no real failure database informing their outputs. That gap is where experienced professionals earn their keep. Businesses are increasingly paying for people who have lived through cycles of failure and recovery, not simply those who can recite information retrieved from a search index.   The SpaceX IPO and What Ray Wang Says It Means for the Future of Markets Ray Wang describes the SpaceX IPO as a completely new playbook, one that flipped conventional wisdom about how public offerings should be structured. Rather than allocating the vast majority of shares to institutional investors through a traditional roadshow, SpaceX directed somewhere between 20 and 30 percent of the offering toward retail investors. Ray Wang sees this as Elon Musk rewarding the individual investors who stayed loyal through years of volatility, particularly the Tesla shareholders who held on despite relentless short-selling pressure. Beyond the allocation strategy, Ray Wang highlights how Musk essentially told the markets to take it or leave it at a fixed price, bypassing the typical price-discovery process. The Nasdaq inclusion guaranteed a floor without needing the traditional green shoe option to do the heavy lifting. Ray Wang believes this model could influence how future high-profile tech companies, including OpenAI and Anthropic, approach their own public offerings, fundamentally shifting leverage away from Wall Street banks and toward founders and retail participants.   Ray Wang Explains Data Inc Companies and the Context Layer That Defines AI Competitive Advantage Ray Wang has been developing a framework he calls the Data Inc company, a concept centered on the idea that businesses that treat data as their primary asset, combined with strong distribution, will dominate the AI era. According to Ray Wang, unique data sets that no competitor can access or replicate are the foundation of next-generation competitive moats. Companies that fail to own their data and build derivative products from it will find themselves structurally disadvantaged as AI capabilities become more broadly available. Taking that framework one step further, Ray Wang agrees that the real battleground is not the large language model itself but the contextual layer that sits above it. This semantic and contextual wrapper, built from proprietary data and accumulated organizational knowledge, is what gives AI outputs meaning and reduces hallucinations. Swapping out one LLM for another becomes straightforward when this context layer is robust, much like swapping one database for another in a well-architected system. Ray Wang adds one more dimension that elevates the entire conversation: persistent memory. The ability for AI systems to retain learnings across interactions and pass that accumulated intelligence to downstream systems is, in his view, the true home run of enterprise AI. Decision velocity, powered by a rich contextual layer and persistent memory, is what separates companies that merely adopt AI from those that build genuine exponential advantage from it. To hear more from Ray Wang and his thoughts about the Future of Tech, download and listen to this episode.   Bio R “Ray” Wang (pronounced WAHNG) is the Founder, Chairman, and Principal Analyst of Silicon Valley based Constellation Research Inc. He co-hosts DisrupTV, a weekly enterprise tech and leadership webcast that averages 50,000 views per episode and authors a business strategy and technology blog that has received millions of page views per month.  Wang also serves as a non-resident Senior Fellow at The Atlantic Council's GeoTech Center. Since 2003, Ray has delivered thousands of live and virtual keynotes around the world that are inspiring and legendary. Wang has spoken at almost every major tech conference. His ground-breaking bestselling book on digital transformation, Disrupting Digital Business, was published by Harvard Business Review Press in 2015.  Ray's new book about Digital Giants and the future of business titled, Everybody Wants to Rule the World will be released July 2021 by Harper Collins Leadership. Ray Wang is well quoted and frequently interviewed in media outlets such as the Wall Street Journal, Fox Business News, CNBC, Yahoo Finance, Cheddar, CGTN America, Bloomberg, Tech Crunch, ZDNet, Forbes, and Fortune.  He is one of the top technology analysts in the world.   Links Follow Ray Wang! Website | Twitter | LinkedIn | Constellation Research | DisrupTV   We hope you enjoyed this episode of Christopher Lochhead: Follow Your Different™! Christopher loves hearing from his listeners. Feel free to email him, connect on Facebook, X (formerly Twitter), Instagram, and subscribe on Apple Podcast / Spotify!

How do you build AI that actually understands you and the work you do? It all starts with having the right context.  We talk with Dropbox staff product manager Noorain Noorani and principal engineer Sean-Michael Lewis about the art of context engineering and how Dropbox connects to all the tools your team needs for work—so you get AI that works wherever you do.  ~ ~ ~  Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox. Find, organize, and share your work—all in one place—with context-aware AI from Dropbox. You can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.ai This show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Ben Montoya, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrator Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck. Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart.  Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

This episode explores the rapid evolution of AI and its impact on the job market, particularly for 20-somethings entering the workforce. AI experts Darius Mirshahzadeh of AIifyIt and Jerome Stewart of White Feather Group discuss how artificial intelligence is transforming knowledge work, creating new opportunities for those who adapt quickly while threatening traditional career paths. The conversation covers practical AI tools, automation platforms, and strategic advice for navigating the AI-driven economy. In this episode, Darius will discuss: (00:00) The AI Revolution: A New Era for Knowledge Workers (02:34) Chronological Evolution of AI: Past, Present, and Future (05:41) The Impact of AI on Knowledge Work and Job Security (08:52) Skills for the Future: Preparing for an AI-Driven Economy (11:27) Navigating the Job Market: Opportunities and Challenges for Young Professionals (14:44) The Role of Human Connection in an AI World (17:49) Becoming the Solution: Embracing AI Skills for Career Success (26:24) The Role of AI in Manual Tasks (28:27) The Future of Robotics and AI Integration (30:24) Reassessing Your Tech Stack (34:27) Getting Started with AI for Young Professionals (42:49 The Urgency of Adopting AI in Business Connect with Darius: Website: https://therealdarius.com/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariusmirshahzadeh/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/imthedarius/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Thegreatnessmachine  Book: The Core Value Equation https://www.amazon.com/Core-Value-Equation-Framework-Limitless/dp/1544506708 Write a review for The Greatness Machine using this link: https://ratethispodcast.com/spreadinggreatness.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Artificial intelligence is changing how knowledge work gets done, and AI agents may be the next major leap. In this episode of Technoventure, Peter High speaks with Arpan Shah, General Partner at Spark Capital, about how AI is reshaping research, investing, software development, and enterprise productivity. Arpan shares how he uses AI agents to accelerate diligence, synthesize information, and expand his own capacity as an investor, while also exploring the future of AI infrastructure, model competition, security, and stablecoins. Key topics include: How AI agents are transforming knowledge work Why AI demand may outpace compute supply for years The evolution of token economics and enterprise AI adoption Security challenges created by increasingly capable AI systems How stablecoins could reshape global financial infrastructure

Ed Zitron, Scott Galloway und Gary Marcus warnen vor dem AI-Crash. Wie ernst muss man sie nehmen? ChatGPT knackt die Milliardenmarke an monatlichen Nutzern, OpenAI Codex meldet 5 Millionen Weekly Active Users mit sechsfachem Wachstum gegenüber Februar. WSJ enthüllt: Auf Sam Altmans Vorschlag erwägt die US-Regierung finanzielle Beteiligungen an den großen KI-Firmen. Anthropic erweitert sein Mythos-Programm auf 150 Organisationen weltweit. FT berichtet, dass die NSA Mythos jetzt offensiv für Hacking nutzt. Meta begrenzt sein Mitarbeiter-Überwachungstool nach Belegschafts-Backlash und launcht zeitgleich AI-Agents für WhatsApp Business. Google kauft heimlich Code von Play-Store-Entwicklern fürs AI-Training. Alibaba Qwen 3.7+ kommt multimodal zu einem Bruchteil der westlichen Preise. S&P 500 hält an Profitabilitätsregeln fest, keine Aufweichung für SpaceX. Morningstar bewertet SpaceX bei nur $780 Mrd., der Hälfte des IPO-Ziels. Alphabet erhöht seine Kapitalmaßnahme auf $85 Mrd., das größte Equity-Offering der Geschichte. Anthropic warnt vor Recursive Self-Improvement. Meta hat heimlich Gesichtserkennung in die Smart Glasses eingebaut. Peter Thiels Founders Fund startet ein YouTube-Format mit Tech-CEOs als Mafia-Spielern. Unterstütze unseren Podcast und entdecke die Angebote unserer Werbepartner auf ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠doppelgaenger.io/werbung⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Vielen Dank!  Philipp Glöckler und Philipp Klöckner sprechen heute über: (00:00:00) AI-Bären-Debatte (00:34:54) ChatGPT 1 Mrd. Nutzer & Codex bei 5 Mio. WAU (00:44:16) US-Regierung will Stake an AI-Firmen (00:47:35) Anthropic dehnt Mythos Access aus (00:49:27) NSA nutzt Anthropic Mythos offensiv für Hacking (00:53:50) Meta limitiert Mitarbeiter-Tracking nach Backlash (00:56:16) Google kauft Play-Store-Code für AI-Training (01:00:40) Alibaba Qwen 3.7+ zum Spotpreis (01:02:07) SpaceX-IPO konkret: $135/Aktie, Trade Republic (01:05:56) S&P 500 bleibt hart, kein Frühzugang für SpaceX (01:08:53) Morningstar halbiert SpaceX auf $780 Mrd. (01:12:24) Alphabet raised $85 Mrd. (Rekord-Equity-Offering) (01:19:01) Anthropic Recursive Self-Improvement (01:24:43) Meta Smart Glasses mit heimlicher Gesichtserkennung (01:26:07) Mafia: The Game von Founders Fund Shownotes Ed Zitron Bloomberg Podcast - youtube.com Ed Zitron: Anthropics Profitability Swindle - wheresyoured.at Scott Galloway: 95% der KI-Investments ohne Return, 50-70% Korrektur in 24 Monaten - the-ai-corner.com ChatGPT-App knackt 1 Mrd. monatliche Nutzer in Rekordzeit - reuters.com OpenAI launcht Codex for Knowledge Work - openai.com US-Regierung diskutiert Beteiligungen an AI-Firmen - wsj.com Anthropic to expand Mythos access - ft.com Uber begrenzt Claude-Code-Nutzung, um Kosten zu sparen - bloomberg.com Snowflake-CIO: Layoffs als Druckmittel, damit Mitarbeiter KI nutzen - theinformation.com Metas AI-Agent für WhatsApp Business weltweit verfügbar - techcrunch.com Meta rollt Mitarbeiter-Tracking-Tool nach Belegschafts-Backlash zurück - theinformation.com US National Security Agency using Anthropic's Mythos for cyber attacks - ft.com Google kauft heimlich Code von Play-Store-Entwicklern fürs KI-Training - 404media.co Alibaba Qwen3.7+: Text, Video, Bilder ab $0,40-$1,60 pro Mio. Token - venturebeat.com SpaceX will $75 Mrd. im Rekord-IPO einsammeln - bloomberg.com Morningstar bewertet SpaceX bei $780 Mrd., nur die Hälfte des IPO-Ziels - reuters.com Wild Twist: SpaceX kommt doch nicht früh in den S&P 500 - marketwatch.com Sitecore übernimmt Scrunch für $225 Mio. - bloomberg.com Alphabet raised $85 Mrd. für AI: größtes Equity-Offering aller Zeiten - thenextweb.com GitLab cuttet 14% der Belegschaft für AI-Workload-Skalierung - techcrunch.com CrowdStrike Q1 2027 Earnings - cnbc.com Anthropic Institute: Recursive Self-Improvement - anthropic.com Anthropic fordert globale KI-Entwicklungspause wegen Self-Improvement-Risiko - wsj.com Meta-Smart-Glasses mit Gesichtserkennung und Nametag - wired.com Tech Celebrities Playing Mafia - newcomer.co

Modern work can be frustrating and chaotic—if you don't have the right tools. From context engineering to multimodal search, go behind the scenes and hear how Dropbox engineers are building AI that actually understands you, so you can focus on the work that matters most. If you're new to Working Smarter, we've travelled from the F1 track to the bottom of a lake, and heard real stories from chefs, doctors, lawyers, and founders about how AI is helping them do more of what they love about their jobs. But in our third season, we're talking to the people behind the tools—the engineers and product leaders building helpful, time-saving AI features into the Dropbox experience you already know and trust. You'll hear all about their work on agents, inference, security, and, of course, how the people building AI use AI themselves. ~ ~ ~  Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox. Find, organize, and share your work—all in one place—with context-aware AI from Dropbox. You can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.ai This show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Ben Montoya, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrator Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck.  Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart.  Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

In this episode of the Crazy Wisdom Podcast, host Stewart Alsop sits down with returning guest Ekue Kpodar for their third conversation together, covering a wide range of topics at the intersection of technology, geopolitics, and the evolving information age. They dig into Ekue's unconventional setup of running local AI models across roughly 15 computers, the growing case for open source models over closed ones from companies like OpenAI and Anthropic, and how Chinese open source models may be positioned to outcompete Western alternatives on a global scale. The conversation also touches on vibe coding and the democratization of software development, the strategic use of small models for IoT and enterprise applications, the role of Israel and China as dominant players in the information age, and how smaller nations and even individuals may wield outsized power as AI continues to collapse the cost of knowledge work. You can find Ekue Kpodar on X @ekpodar and LinkedIn.Timestamps00:00 Stewart welcomes Ekue for their third episode, diving into vibe coding and AI-driven development changes.05:00 Ekue explains using Claude on Chrome to auto-reply on Skool, burning tokens through screenshots, and Playwright as a more efficient alternative.10:00 Stewart describes his Claude-dependent planning and coding agent system breaking after a model update, prompting him to build his own chatbot.15:00 Small models discussed as critical for IoT, defense, and privacy-focused enterprises building internal APIs instead of routing traffic to OpenAI.20:00 Open source versus closed source debated, with Chinese models gaining global traction while US foundational labs remain expensive and restrictive.25:00 SaaS apocalypse explored as AI commoditizes knowledge work, with Linux and Terraform cited as proof open source still generates wealth.30:00 OpenAI's sci-fi terminator fears explained as the reason they stayed closed source, ultimately handing China a strategic open source advantage.35:00 China's economic dumping strategy applied to AI, potentially displacing US model dominance globally the same way manufacturing was disrupted.40:00 Israel's signals intelligence dominance discussed alongside asymmetric warfare, drones defeating tanks, and information control replacing military muscle.45:00 Global information age rankings debated, Israel leading, US and China tied, France and Poland emerging as sovereign tech players.50:00 Qatar, NVIDIA, and Iran cited as proof that rare resources and technology matter more than population size in the 21st century power landscape.Key Insights1. Running local AI models on a network of affordable computers can be more cost-effective than relying entirely on third-party APIs. By using compressed or smaller open source models locally, developers can handle repetitive or lower-stakes tasks without burning through expensive tokens from providers like Anthropic or OpenAI.2. Small AI models are becoming increasingly important for IoT, defense applications, and companies that do not want to send sensitive data to external providers. Organizations can download open source models, run them on internal servers, and build proprietary APIs around them, creating something like an intranet of specialized small models.3. The value created by AI tools is being redistributed away from traditional SaaS companies toward foundational model providers and individual builders. People are canceling subscriptions to software they once paid hundreds per month for, because AI now allows a single person to build comparable tools themselves.4. Open source technology does not eliminate the ability to profit. Linux and Terraform are both open source yet made their creators wealthy. People will still pay for installation, setup, troubleshooting, and customization even when the underlying software is free.5. China is applying its longstanding manufacturing dumping strategy to artificial intelligence by releasing cheap open source models globally, which threatens to erode US dominance in AI the same way Chinese manufacturing undercut other countries for decades.6. In the information age, the size of a country or institution matters far less than its access to rare resources or advanced technology. Qatar, Israel, and NVIDIA each demonstrate that small populations or headcounts can wield enormous global negotiating power through concentrated technological or resource advantages.7. Asymmetric warfare is redefining military power, with inexpensive drones defeating tanks that cost millions to build. This shifts the advantage toward nations that excel at signals intelligence and information management rather than those with the largest conventional military forces.

Generative AI reprices knowledge work by turning tasks that once required costly outsourced labor into low-cost model-driven workflows, reshaping hiring, budgeting, and productivity across industries. That's the key take-away message of this episode of the Wise Decision Maker Show, which discusses how AI reprices knowledge work.This article forms the basis for this episode: https://disasteravoidanceexperts.com/ai-is-twenty-five-times-cheaper-the-number-that-reprices-knowledge-work/

Most organizations think they're doing AI. They've bought the licenses, rolled out the tools, and told the team to start using Copilot. But adding AI on top of a 40-year-old process isn't transformation. It's decoration. Andre Kaminski, Director of Advanced Technology Solutions at WorkSafeBC and author of "The AI-Native Software Development Lifecycle," joins Peter and Dave to talk about what it actually means to rebuild your delivery process around AI, not just bolt it on. They get into why optimizing code generation alone is the wrong focus, what the six phases of an AI-native SDLC look like in practice, and why the biggest challenge isn't the technology at all. It's the identity shift that comes with it. If your organization is asking "which AI tool should we use?" this episode will help you realize that's probably the wrong question.In this episode:Why AI-augmented and AI-native are very different thingsThe compounding learning effect and why early adopters are pulling further ahead every monthWhat prompt architecture actually means and why it matters more than codeHow to think about governance when prompts become your new source of truth Want to keep the conversation going? Drop us a line at feedback@definitelymaybeagile.com or find us at definitelymaybeagile.com. If this episode got you thinking, share it with someone who needs to hear it.

In this episode of Breaking into Cybersecurity, host Christophe sits down with Shan Kulkarni, a security leader focused on the intersection of AI, engineering, and human-centric security practices.They explore the massive shift currently happening in the industry as AI takes over traditional "knowledge work," forcing a move toward higher-level human intuition. Shan introduces the concept of **"Vibe Coding"** and discusses how outcome-driven requirements are changing the types of vulnerabilities we face.Key Discussion Points- The End of Knowledge Work? How AI is automating the repetitive analysis and coding tasks that used to define a career, and why intuition is the new premium skill.- AI in Security: Practical ways to use tools like Claude to automate leadership tasks and reclaim your time.- Vibe Coding & Security: What happens when software is generated based on "vibes" and outcomes rather than line-by-line coding?- Gamifying Vulnerability Fixes: Using scoreboards and competitive metrics to drive engineering engagement and faster remediation.- The Business Language of Security: Why translating technical risk into business value remains the biggest hurdle for security leaders.About the GuestShan Kulkarni is a security leader and strategist known for innovative approaches to automation and gamification. He has a deep background in software engineering, which informs his outcome-driven approach to security.Resources Mentioned- Claude AI (Anthropic)- Vibe Coding (Modern development concept)Connect with Us- Breaking Into Cybersecurity YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@BreakingIntoCybersecurity- Christophe Foulon on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophefoulon/

What You'll Learn in This Episode:In this episode, Patrick Adams and Shayne Daughenbaugh break down the true meaning of GEMBA and why it's a foundational practice in Lean leadership.You'll learn how going to the “real place” helps leaders move beyond assumptions and understand what's actually happening in their processes. The conversation highlights why many leaders avoid the gemba. Often due to fear, ego, or lack of clarity. Also, how shifting to a mindset of curiosity, humility, and vulnerability can change everything.They also explore how to approach GEMBA in both manufacturing and knowledge work environments, emphasizing the importance of building trust, creating psychological safety, and following up on what you hear.If you've ever struggled to connect with your team, understand your processes, or drive meaningful improvement, this episode gives you a simple, practical way to start.Key Takeaways:GEMBA is about understanding reality—not relying on assumptionsLeaders should approach the gemba with curiosity, not judgmentTrust is built through consistency, follow-up, and psychological safetyStart small—pick one process, observe, listen, and learn before actingLinks: Lean Solutions SummitLean Solutions Website 

What if the biggest threat to your business isn't your competition, but your own reluctance to automate? In this solo episode of The Greatness Machine, Darius shares a raw, urgent wake-up call for entrepreneurs and business owners: AI isn't a technology problem, it's an operations problem. Drawing from his hands-on experience sitting in on live AI builds with his portfolio companies and his role as Chairman of the Board at AIIFYit.com, Darius breaks down what it actually means to "AI-ify" your company and why most businesses are getting it completely wrong. He walks through a real-world case study in the lending industry where a process that took an hour and required offshore employees was reduced to one to two minutes with no human involvement, and explains why that changes everything about cost structures, competitive pricing, and survival in the marketplace. In this episode, Darius will discuss: (00:00) AI: Operations, Not Technology (02:51) The Evolution of AI in Business (06:10) Automating Processes for Unlimited Capacity (09:03) Cultural Friction in AI Implementation (11:52) The Future of Knowledge Work (14:46) The Urgency of AI Adoption (18:10) Out-of-App AI: The Next Frontier Connect with Darius: Website: https://therealdarius.com/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariusmirshahzadeh/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/imthedarius/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Thegreatnessmachine  Book: The Core Value Equation https://www.amazon.com/Core-Value-Equation-Framework-Limitless/dp/1544506708 Write a review for The Greatness Machine using this link: https://ratethispodcast.com/spreadinggreatness.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of Christopher Lochhead: Follow Your Different, Christopher Lochhead moves over to the guest chair and answer our questions about AI, Creator Capitalists, and the future of work.  At the AI and Copilot Summit in San Diego, Christopher Lochhead had a conversation that resonated far beyond a typical business keynote. Speaking to hundreds of executives, he challenged the dominant narrative around artificial intelligence. Instead of focusing on fear, disruption, and job loss, he reframed AI as the greatest creative unlock in human history. His message was not about survival in an automated world, but about reinvention. At the heart of his perspective is a shift from knowledge work to creation. As AI makes both knowledge and execution increasingly accessible, the real question is no longer what we know or how efficiently we work. The question becomes what we choose to create and how we differentiate ourselves in a world flooded with sameness. You're listening to Christopher Lochhead: Follow Your Different. We are the real dialogue podcast for people with a different mind. So get your mind in a different place, and hey ho, let's go.   The End of Knowledge Work as We Know It For decades, careers were built on the idea that knowledge is power. Professionals were valued for what they knew and how effectively they could apply that knowledge. This model defined the rise of the knowledge worker, where expertise and execution were the foundation of economic value. AI is dismantling that foundation. With tools that can generate insights and execute tasks instantly, both knowledge and execution are becoming commoditized. As a result, roles centered on repeating known processes are rapidly losing relevance. This shift is not just technological. It is existential, forcing individuals and organizations to rethink what truly creates value in the modern economy.   From Fear to Opportunity in the Age of AI Much of the public conversation around AI is driven by fear, particularly the fear of job loss. Lochhead acknowledges these concerns but argues that they overshadow a more important truth. Every major technological leap has created entirely new categories of work, even as it disrupted old ones. AI is no different, but the pace is unprecedented. Instead of focusing solely on what might disappear, there is a need to explore what becomes possible. The real opportunity lies in recognizing that AI expands human capability. It enables individuals to build, experiment, and innovate at a scale that was previously unimaginable, opening doors for entirely new career paths.   The Rise of the Creator Capitalist In a world where execution is automated and knowledge is abundant, creation becomes the ultimate differentiator. Lochhead introduces the concept of the creator capitalist, someone who leverages their unique perspective, skills, and experiences to produce meaningful value. This is not about following passion alone, but about identifying one's distinct strengths and applying them in ways that matter. The creator capitalist mindset also reframes personal assets. Relationships, reputation, expertise, and financial resources become forms of capital that can be combined and amplified through AI. Those who learn to connect their individuality with scalable tools will define the future of work, while those who cling to outdated models risk being left behind.   Links Want to catch more episode of the AI Agent & Copilot Podcast? You can check them out here: Presented by Cloud Wars | AI Agent and Copilot Podcast | John Siefert LinkedIn | Cloud Wars LinkedIn   We hope you enjoyed this episode of Christopher Lochhead: Follow Your Different™! Christopher loves hearing from his listeners. Feel free to email him, connect on Facebook, X (formerly Twitter), Instagram, and subscribe on Apple Podcast / Spotify!

SECURE YOUR SPOT FOR THE AGENTIC AI COURSE: https://services.multiplai.ai/agentic-courseAre you already falling behind in the AI race—without even realizing it?AI isn't just evolving—it's accelerating at a pace that's rewriting how businesses operate, compete, and grow. The real shift isn't coming someday… it's already here.In this episode, you'll discover how today's most advanced AI tools are enabling individuals to build full-scale business systems from their phone—and why the real limitation is no longer the technology, but how effectively you use it.If you want to stay relevant, the solution is clear: learn how to think, build, and operate alongside AI—or risk being outpaced by those who do.In this session, you'll discover: How Anthropic is shipping AI updates at an unprecedented pace—and why it matters  What “AI psychosis” is and why even top experts feel they're falling behind  A real-world example of building a fully automated YouTube growth engine in days  The rise of autonomous AI agents that can execute business tasks end-to-end  Why humans—not AI—are now the biggest bottleneck  The 3 critical skills you need to succeed in the AI-driven future  What major shifts at OpenAI signal about where the market is heading  The growing impact of AI on jobs, hiring, and business structure  Why unconventional thinkers and skilled trades may dominate the future workforce  The emerging risks, opportunities, and ethical questions shaping AI adoptionAbout Leveraging AIThe Ultimate AI Course for Business People: https://multiplai.ai/ai-course/YouTube Full Episodes: https://www.youtube.com/@Multiplai_AI/Connect with Isar Meitis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isarmeitis/ Join our Live Sessions, AI Hangouts and newsletter: https://services.multiplai.ai/eventsIf you've enjoyed or benefited from some of the insights of this episode, leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, and let us know what you learned, found helpful, or liked most about this show!

Spencer Penn, Co founder and CEO of LightSource, joins The Tech Trek for a sharp conversation on AI native procurement, agentic workflows, and what actually happens to knowledge work as automation gets better. This episode is worth your time because it moves past lazy takes about AI replacing jobs and gets into something more useful, how work changes, where human value holds, and why procurement may be more strategic than most companies treat it.This conversation starts with procurement, but it quickly expands into a bigger discussion about role design, change management, and the pace of AI adoption inside real companies. Spencer breaks down why some jobs get redesigned while others disappear, how AI can elevate overlooked functions, and what people should do right now if their company is behind.In this episodeWhy procurement is a strong fit for AI, especially where teams are buried in tedious process workThe difference between job automation and job eliminationSpencer's idea of role plasticity, and why it matters more than most AI debatesWhy procurement teams may become more valuable, not less, as AI improvesPractical ways professionals can start using AI before their company rolls out a formal strategyTimestamped highlights00:37 What LightSource does and why direct material sourcing is a high stakes AI use case01:51 Why procurement teams spend too much time on transactional work06:47 Which jobs get enhanced by AI, which ones get eliminated, and Spencer's framework for role plasticity13:44 What the next few years could look like for procurement professionals26:18 Where to start if your company has not adopted an AI native workflow yet30:07 How to learn more about LightSource and connect with Spencer“AI will not replace your job. Someone who knows how to use AI will.”A practical thread running through this episode is simple. Start using the tools now. Use foundation models for secondary work, reporting, summaries, and internal communication. Build familiarity before the workflow shift gets forced on you.If you are interested in AI, procurement, operations, supply chain, or the future of knowledge work, follow The Tech Trek for more conversations like this.

What happens when AI stops helping with work—and starts doing the work itself?This episode connects a set of developments that business leaders should not ignore. From Sequoia's thesis that AI is replacing services, not just software, to Anthropic's findings that AI adoption is still far behind AI capability, the message is clear: the bottleneck is no longer technology. It is implementation.The bigger takeaway is even more important. Google, Microsoft, and Anthropic all released capabilities this week that make autonomous, business-ready AI workflows far more practical than they were even a few months ago. For leaders, that means the window to experiment is still open—but it may not stay open for long.In this session, you'll discover:Why AI is increasingly targeting work itself rather than the software layer around itThe difference between intelligence work and judgment work, and why that matters for business leadersWhat Anthropic's Claude usage data reveals about the gap between AI capability and actual adoptionWhy friction—not technical limitations—is slowing AI transformation inside companiesHow Google's new Workspace CLI expands agent access across Gmail, Drive, Docs, Sheets, and moreWhat Microsoft Copilot Cowork could mean for enterprise automation inside Microsoft 365Why AI review systems will become essential as AI-generated output scales across functionsHow autonomous agent loops could reshape software, marketing, sales, customer service, and product developmentWhat recent layoffs at Meta and Atlassian suggest about the future of knowledge workThe legal battles emerging around AI, from copyright to legal advice to data privacyAbout Leveraging AI The Ultimate AI Course for Business People: https://multiplai.ai/ai-course/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://www.youtube.com/@Multiplai_AI/ Connect with Isar Meitis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isarmeitis/ Join our Live Sessions, AI Hangouts and newsletter: https://services.multiplai.ai/events If you've enjoyed or benefited from some of the insights of this episode, leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, and let us know what you learned, found helpful, or liked most about this show!

Welcome to Exponential View, the show where I explore how exponential technologies such as AI are reshaping our future. I've been studying AI and exponential technologies at the frontier for over ten years. Each week, I share some of my analysis or speak with an expert guest to make light of a particular topic. To keep up with the Exponential transition, subscribe to this channel or to my newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/ ----- AI has become so embedded in how I work that I can no longer cleanly separate it from my thinking. That raises a question I find genuinely unsettling: is intensive AI use making me a sharper thinker, or quietly doing the opposite? In this episode I pull back the curtain on my full research and writing process — the custom tools, the friction points, and the places where I'm still not sure I've got it right. For Ezra Klein, having AI summarize material is a disaster for original thought. But my AI systems are designed to protect the cognitive work that has to stay human, while they handle everything else. Knowing where to draw that line turns out to be the hardest and most important question. I covered: 00:00 - Is AI worsening our thinking? 02:35 - Ezra Klein on AI and the death of original thought 04:02 - Cognitive offloading vs cognitive surrender 09:20 - Signal detection at scale 11:06 - Why I use several AI personas to scan for different insights 13:37 - AI tells me what NOT to think about 16:25 - The value of quietness 19:07 - Small notebooks, small ideas 20:01 - Writing reveals what you don't yet know 23:24 - The golden thread 25:20 - Speaking drafts aloud 28:05 - How I stress-test my arguments before publishing 29:35 - Using AI to stress-test my own house views 31:44 - Stylometer: my AI style and grammar tool 33:10 - Did AI make the thinking better? For more on this week's topics, subscribe to my newsletter https://www.exponentialview.co/ ----- Where to find me: Exponential View newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/ Website: https://www.azeemazhar.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azhar/ Twitter/X: https://x.com/azeem Production by EPIIPLUS1 Production and research: Baba Films, Chantal Smith, Marija Gavrilov. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

OpenAI dropped GPT-5.4 Thinking and Pro.

Welcome to Exponential View, the show where I explore how exponential technologies such as AI are reshaping our future. I've been studying AI and exponential technologies at the frontier for over ten years. Each week, I share some of my analysis or speak with an expert guest to make light of a particular topic. To keep up with the Exponential transition, subscribe to this channel or to my newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/ ----- Meet R Mini Arnold - my OpenClaw chief of staff, which manages the equivalent of a ten-person team from a Mac mini in my garden studio. While I slept, that AI team debugged its own code at 3am, researched a trending Substack essay using five parallel investigators, and wrote a 4,600-word script for this very episode in 40 minutes. The gap between people who've started building this way and those who haven't is widening every week.  I covered: 00:51 Introducing my OpenClaw agent “R Mini Arnold” 03:59 What my AI chief of staff actually does 07:58 The hardware and software stack 10:38 A morning brief before you wake up 12:05 Overnight agents: research and code 15:00 How I communicate with my agent 18:56 Example 1: the sovereign wealth fund 22:41 Example 2: how this video was written 26:34 What it costs 29:22 The soul.md personality spec 32:39 Am I losing the judgment muscle? 35:46 Individuals vs. Fortune 500s 38:25 What to try this week ----- Where to find me: Exponential View newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/ Website: https://www.azeemazhar.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azhar/ Twitter/X: https://x.com/azeem Production by EPIIPLUS1 Production and research: Baba Films, Chantal Smith, Marija Gavrilov. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Is your job safe if it happens on a screen?In the past few weeks, AI hasn't just improved, it has crossed a line. From writing production-ready code to building full applications autonomously, the shift is no longer theoretical. It's operational.The reality? AI is moving from assistant to operator, faster than most leaders are prepared for.In this episode, we break down what's really happening behind the headlines, why this moment feels eerily similar to early 2020, and what business leaders must do now to avoid being caught off guard.If you lead people, manage budgets, or make strategic decisions, this conversation is not optional.In this session, you'll discover:Why a viral article comparing AI to early COVID signals a bigger structural shiftHow Claude 4.6 and GPT 5.3 are moving from “helpful tool” to “finished output”The real reason AI labs targeted software engineers firstWhy “anything that can be done on a computer” is now vulnerableHow AI built a full multi-agent production pipeline in 48 hoursWhat Gemini 3.1 Pro's benchmark leap actually meansWhy Accenture now ties promotions to AI usageHow AI insurance is removing enterprise adoption barriersWhat the India AI Summit revealed about global governance tensionsWhy OpenAI's $100B raise is both brilliant and dangerously high-stakesHow robotics is quietly moving from factory floors into daily lifeWhy hybrid human-AI workflows are temporary by designThe coming economic disruption — and where opportunity hides inside itAbout Leveraging AI The Ultimate AI Course for Business People: https://multiplai.ai/ai-course/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://www.youtube.com/@Multiplai_AI/ Connect with Isar Meitis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isarmeitis/ Join our Live Sessions, AI Hangouts and newsletter: https://services.multiplai.ai/events If you've enjoyed or benefited from some of the insights of this episode, leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, and let us know what you learned, found helpful, or liked most about this show!

What if months of work could be done in a single day? In this solo episode of The Greatness Machine, host Darius Mirshahzadeh delivers a blunt, eye-opening reality check on how AI is permanently reshaping work and business. Darius shares how tools like Claude.ai helped him unlock what he estimates as 80x productivity, collapsing months of effort into a single day while building his new private equity firm. From playbooks and investment materials to inbox zero and app creation, the results left him stunned. He challenges CEOs, founders, knowledge workers, and students to rethink their roles now, making it clear that AI is no longer “tech,” it is operations. The future, he argues, belongs to those who can build workflows, deploy agents, and leverage automation tools like n8n. In this episode, Darius will discuss: (00:00) The AI Revolution Begins (02:33) Harnessing AI for Productivity (05:48) Transforming Workflows with AI (08:16) The Future of Knowledge Work (11:28) Preparing for an AI-Driven World (14:16) The New Era of Business Operations Connect with Darius: Website: https://therealdarius.com/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariusmirshahzadeh/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/imthedarius/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Thegreatnessmachine  Book: The Core Value Equation https://www.amazon.com/Core-Value-Equation-Framework-Limitless/dp/1544506708 Write a review for The Greatness Machine using this link: https://ratethispodcast.com/spreadinggreatness.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How to design meetings with purpose so they actually move work forward.Meetings are a necessary part of work. But for many people, they're also a major source of frustration. According to Rebecca Hinds, meetings don't have to feel like a drain—better meetings start when we stop treating them as a default and start designing them with intention.Hinds is the author of Your Best Meeting Ever: Seven Principles for Designing Meetings That Get Things Done, and a future-of-work expert who founded the Work Innovation Lab at Asana and the Work AI Institute at Glean. She argues that the problem isn't meetings themselves, but the sheer number of poorly designed ones, and by being more thoughtful about what actually deserves synchronous time, teams can redesign how they communicate in the workplace “Meetings are the most important product in our entire organization, and yet they're also the least optimized,” she says. “The first step is recognizing we need to be much more intentional about how we're designing meetings.”In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Hinds and host Matt Abrahams discuss why meetings so often go wrong—and what it takes to make them work. Whether you're leading a team, trying to protect focus time, or simply hoping to spend less of your week in calendar invites, Hinds offers practical frameworks for designing meetings with purpose so they become a tool people actually value.To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.Episode Reference Links:Rebecca HindsRebecca's Book: Your Best Meeting EverEp.124 Making Meetings Meaningful Pt. 1: How to Structure and Organize More Effective Gatherings Ep.125 Making Meetings Meaningful Pt. 2: Key Ingredients for Effective Meetings Connect:Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart PremiumEmail Questions & Feedback >>> hello@fastersmarter.ioEpisode Transcripts >>> Think Fast Talk Smart WebsiteNewsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>> FasterSmarter.ioThink Fast Talk Smart >>> LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTubeMatt Abrahams >>> LinkedInChapters:(00:00) - Introduction (01:42) - Why Meetings Feel Broken (02:57) - The Default-To-Meeting Problem (03:50) - Treat Meetings Like A Product (05:10) - Meeting Doomsday Reset (06:40) - The 4-DCEO Test (08:43) - Designing Better Meetings (10:05) - Creating a Meeting Agenda (12:58) - Context And Meeting Fatigue (14:06) - Memo-First Meetings (16:11) - The Final Three Questions (21:02) - Conclusion ********Thank you to our sponsors.  These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost.This episode is sponsored by Strawberry.me. Get 50% off your first coaching session today at Strawberry.me/tftsJoin our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be.

Jonathan Siddharth is the founder and CEO of Turing, a $2.2 billion AI company that provides coding and reasoning data to train frontier models for OpenAI, Google, Meta, Anthropic and more. Turing's mission is to accelerate superintelligence to drive economic growth. In this episode of World of DaaS, Jonathan and Auren discuss:How Turing creates expert data for frontier modelsWhy SaaS is dying in the age of AI agentsDisrupting the $30 trillion market for digital knowledge workBuilding a stage five company cultureYou can find Auren Hoffman on X at @auren and Jonathan Siddharth on X at @jonsidd.Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (https://thepodcastconsultant.com)

The best way to build a horrible search product? Don't ever measure anything against what a user wants.Search veterans Doug Turnbull (Led Search at Reddit + Shopify; Wrote Relevant Search + AI Powered Search) and John Berryman (Early Engineer on Github Copilot; Author of Relevant Search + Prompt Engineering for LLMs), join Hugo to talk about how to build Agentic Search Applications.We Discuss:* The evolution of information retrieval as it moves from traditional keyword search toward “agentic search“ and what this means for builders.* John's five-level maturity model (you can prototype today!) for AI adoption, moving from Trad Search to conversational AI to asynchronous research assistants that reason about result quality.* The Agentic Search Builders Playbook, including why and how you should “hand-roll” your own agentic loops to maintain control;* The importance of “revealed preferences” that LLM-judges often miss (evaluations must use real clickstream data to capture “revealed preferences” that semantic relevance alone cannot infer)* Patterns and Anti-Patterns for Agentic Search Applications* Learning and teaching Search in the Age of AgentsYou can find the full episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube.You can also interact directly with the transcript here in NotebookLM: If you do so, let us know anything you find in the comments!

▶️ Connect with Richard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardatherton-firsthuman/   Is AI about to take over knowledge work? And what does that mean for the rest of us?   In this episode of Being Human, I speak with Alastair Moore, AI strategist and co-founder of ventures helping organisations navigate the machine intelligence revolution. Alastair argues that we've already crossed a threshold: AI isn't just assisting knowledge workers — it's now performing tasks at the frontier of research, science, and complex problem-solving.   We explore how large models are reshaping entire categories of white-collar work, why organisations are unprepared for the acceleration curve, and what skills will matter in a world where cognition becomes a shared capability between humans and machines. This is a grounded, practical, and sometimes unsettling conversation about the next decade of work.   We discuss: AI at the scientific frontier Automation of knowledge work Human–machine complementarities Skills for the post-GPT economy Links: DeepFlow - the company co-founded by Alastair

On the 61st episode of Enterprise AI Innovators, hosts Evan Reiser (CEO and co-founder, Abnormal AI) and Saam Motamedi (Greylock Partners) talk with Allen Fazio, CIO at Houlihan Lokey. Allen lays out how a global mid-cap M&A leader is rethinking investment banking as a professional service powered by AI. By putting a single orchestration layer at the center and starting with “100-level” use cases for analysts and interns, he is building an innovation engine that protects regulatory exposure while transforming how human bankers research, model, and execute deals.Quick hits from Allen:On orchestration and data advantage: “We've been looking for almost three years for what I'll call the orchestration layer. What do we put in the middle of the picture?”On analyst-first AI adoption: “So for us, our focus is going to be on the lookout level, right. Let's start with the analysts, associates, and interns. And let's really focus on their capabilities, where I think some of our peers are. I'm not saying they're wrong, but where they're spending more time than I'm going to spend is on these high-end use cases.”On culture over tools: “You're building out an innovation culture, not deploying a technology or a toolset.”Recent Book Recommendation: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson --Like what you hear? Leave us a review and subscribe to the show on Apple, Google, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts.Enterprise AI Innovators is a show where top technology executives share how AI is transforming the enterprise. Find more great lessons from tech leaders and enterprise software experts at https://www.enterprisesoftware.blog/ Enterprise AI Innovators is produced by Abnormal Studios.

At 22, Brendan Foody is both the youngest Conversations with Tyler guest ever and the youngest unicorn founder on record. His company Mercor hires the experts who train frontier AI models—from poets grading verse to economists building evaluation frameworks—and has become one of the fastest-growing startups in history. Tyler and Brendan discuss why Mercor pays poets $150 an hour, why AI labs need rubrics more than raw text, whether we should enshrine the aesthetic standards of past eras rather than current ones, how quickly models are improving at economically valuable tasks, how long until AI can stump Cass Sunstein, the coming shift toward knowledge workers building RL environments instead of doing repetitive analysis, how to interview without falling for vibes, why nepotism might make a comeback as AI optimizes everyone's cover letters, scaling the Thiel Fellowship 100,000X, what his 8th-grade donut empire taught him about driving out competition, the link between dyslexia and entrepreneurship, dining out and dating in San Francisco, Mercor's next steps, and more. Read a full transcript enhanced with helpful links, or watch the full video on the new dedicated Conversations with Tyler channel. Recorded October 16th, 2025. Other ways to connect Follow us on X and Instagram Follow Tyler on X Follow Brendan on X Sign up for our newsletter Join our Discord Email us: cowenconvos@mercatus.gmu.edu Learn more about Conversations with Tyler and other Mercatus Center podcasts here. Timestamps 00:00:00 - Hiring poets to teach AI 00:05:29 - Measuring real-world AI progress  00:13:25 - Why rubrics are the new oil  00:18:44 - Enshrining taste in LLMs 00:22:38 - Turning society into one giant RL machine 00:26:37 - When AI will stump experts 00:30:46 - AI and employment 00:35:05 - Why vibes-based hiring fails 00:39:55 - Solving labor market matching problems  00:45:01 - Scaling the Thiel Fellowship  00:48:11 - A hypothetical gap year 00:50:31 - Donuts, debates, and dyslexia 00:56:15 - Dating and dining out 00:59:01 - Mercor's next steps

Get access to metatrends 10+ years before anyone else - https://qr.diamandis.com/metatrends   Emad Mostaque is the founder of Intelligent Internet ( https://www.ii.inc )  Read Emad's Book: https://thelasteconomy.com Salim Ismail is the founder of OpenExO Dave Blundin is the founder & GP of Link Ventures Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross is a computer scientist and founder of Reified – My companies: Apply to Dave's and my new fund:https://qr.diamandis.com/linkventureslanding      Go to Blitzy to book a free demo and start building today: https://qr.diamandis.com/blitzy   Grab dinner with MOONSHOT listeners: https://moonshots.dnnr.io/ _ Connect with Peter: X Instagram Connect with Emad:  Read Emad's Book  X  Learn about Intelligent Internet Connect with Dave: X LinkedIn Connect with Salim: X Join Salim's Workshop to build your ExO  Connect with Alex Website LinkedIn X Email Listen to MOONSHOTS: Apple YouTube – *Recorded on December 18th, 2025 *The views expressed by me and all guests are personal opinions and do not constitute Financial, Medical, or Legal advice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Join Conor Grennan and Jaeden as they dive into the latest release of GPT 5.2. Discover how this new model is revolutionizing knowledge work, outperforming industry professionals, and what it means for the future of AI. From personal anecdotes to industry benchmarks, this episode covers it all. Tune in to learn more about the incremental updates and their impact on technology and productivityGet the top 40+ AI Models for $20 at AI Box: ⁠⁠https://aibox.aiConor's AI Course: https://www.ai-mindset.ai/coursesConor's AI Newsletter: https://www.ai-mindset.ai/Jaeden's AI Hustle Community: https://www.skool.com/aihustleSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Don Kieffer has spent more than fifty years redesigning how real work gets done. In this episode, he explains why so many improvement efforts stall—and how Dynamic Work Design offers a clearer, more practical way forward. Episode page with video, transcript, and more Don traces his path from machinist to Vice President of Operational Excellence at Harley-Davidson and senior lecturer at MIT Sloan. He shares what he learned working with Toyota legend Hajime Oba, including the moment he realized that copying Toyota's rituals was the wrong goal. The real power, he argues, lies in understanding the thinking behind great work design. We break down the five principles of Dynamic Work Design—solving the right problem, structuring for discovery, connecting the human chain, regulating flow, and making work visible—and discuss how they apply far beyond the factory floor. Don explains why intellectual work is “almost infinitely compressible,” why executives misdiagnose morale problems, and why most leaders can draw their org chart but not the actual flow of work. Along the way, he shares stories from Harley, MIT, and client organizations that learned to shift from firefighting to flow. His message is consistent: when you redesign the work, you change the culture. Engagement follows the system, not the other way around. This episode pairs well with Episode 538 with Nelson Repenning and is essential listening for leaders trying to improve performance, reduce frustration, and create environments where people can do their best work. Key ideas • Copying Toyota's practices isn't the same as understanding Toyota's thinking • Why Dynamic Work Design starts with a specific problem—not a program • How to create real-time management systems in knowledge-work environments • Why most dysfunction is a work-design issue, not a people issue • How better work design restores flow, learning, and joy in the work Representative Quotes “Five percent of the problem is people. Ninety-five percent is bad work design.” “Most executives can draw the org chart, but not the work.” “Intellectual work is almost infinitely compressible.” “Culture emerges from how the work is designed—not from what leaders say.”

Jonathan Siddharth is Founder and CEO of Turing, one of the fastest-growing AI companies advancing frontier models. Jonathan has led the company to an astonishing $350M ARR with just $225M raised and a profitable company. A Stanford-trained AI scientist, Jonathan previously helped pioneer natural language search at Powerset, which was acquired by Microsoft. AGENDA: 03:35 Data, Compute, Algorithms: What is Most Abundant? What is Lacking Most? 09:18 What Does No One Know About AI's Data Requirements That Everyone Should? 17:05 The Biggest Challenges Enterprises Have with AI Adoption 20:38 Why Will 99% of Knowledge Work Will be Gone in 10 Years 27:12 How Will Data-Driven Feedback Loops Replace Technology as the Moat 36:08 Who Wins the Data Labelling Market? Who Loses? 38:23 Is Revenue BS in Data Labelling? Are Players Calling GMV Revenue?  45:20 Why is SaaS Dead in a World of AI? 51:23 Will the Phone be the Primary User Interface to an AI World? 57:07 Quickfire Round    

The world record for fastest pit stop—a mere 1.8 seconds—was set by the McLaren F1 Team at the Qatar Grand Prix in 2023. It's an incredible feat of speed and choreography; a pit stop that fast can't happen without a team of people operating at peak human performance. But as Dan Keyworth explains, AI plays a crucial role, too. As the Director of Business Technology at McLaren Racing, Dan is responsible for helping the whole team perform at their best—and that starts with having the right tools. Whether it's the firehose of sensor data coming off a race car, video analysis of the pit crew in action, or marketing analytics for the next Grand Prix, AI helps the McLaren F1 Team make the right decisions—and make them fast.On this episode, Dan talks about the importance of getting simple answers from complex data, how they use Dropbox Dash, and why we shouldn't think of AI as labor replacement so much as laborious replacement.You can learn more about the McLaren F1 Team at mclaren.com/racing/formula-1. And if you haven't already seen it, be sure to watch their world record pit stop at youtube.com/watch?v=tRBOiq-Q6_s. Seriously, it's blink-and-you'll-miss-it fast.~ ~ ~Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox Dash—the AI universal search and knowledge management tool from Dropbox. Learn more at workingsmarter.ai/dashYou can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.aiThis show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Dominic Girard, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrators Justin Tran and Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck. Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart. Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

Cal Newport unpacks his framework for Slow Productivity, built on three core principles: doing fewer things, working at a natural pace, and obsessing over quality. He introduces "pseudo productivity"—the toxic heuristic that emerged in mid-20th century knowledge work when visible activity became a proxy for useful effort because traditional productivity metrics (Model Ts per hour, bushels per acre) no longer applied. Newport argues that pseudo productivity was tolerable until the digital office revolution—email, Slack, mobile computing—enabled visible activity to be demonstrated at incredibly high frequency, anywhere, anytime, creating a performance theater that drains actual productive capacity. The conversation explores how to build custom AI systems for daily planning (using GPT models trained on transcripts and book notes), the three levels of working with large language models (training from scratch, fine-tuning, and software intermediaries), and why specialized vertical AI will dominate the next wave of innovation. Newport makes the case for abandoning industrial-era proxies and reclaiming knowledge work as a craft that requires depth, patience, and quality over constant performative busyness. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of The Digital Executive, host Brian Thomas welcomes Alberto Rizzoli, serial entrepreneur and CEO of V7, a UK-based company pioneering AI systems to automate knowledge work across industries like healthcare, finance, and insurance.Alberto shares his journey from creating AI Poly, a groundbreaking app that empowered the visually impaired, to leading V7, where AI agents now handle complex, document-heavy workflows with accuracy, traceability, and compliance at scale. He explains how V7 blends human expertise with AI, allowing organizations to design reliable automations that learn step by step and always ground decisions in documented evidence—ensuring trustworthy, transparent AI operations.Looking ahead, Alberto envisions a world where AI eliminates administrative burdens, reduces bureaucracy, and empowers a new generation of AI workflow designers—transforming how we define knowledge work itself.Whether you're an AI innovator, enterprise leader, or future-focused technologist, this episode offers a bold perspective on how human creativity and machine intelligence will coexist to reshape the modern workplace.If you liked what you heard today, please leave us a review - Apple or Spotify. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Iain Thomas is a poet, author, and the Chief Innovation Officer at Sounds Fun—an advertising and creative agency that he co-founded with the belief that human creativity could be enhanced, rather than diminished, with the help of AI. It's a realization that actually began to dawn on Iain a few years prior, after his mother died. He wasn't sure how to explain death to his children, so he turned to an early version of ChatGPT for help—and was so impressed by the poetry of its responses that he came away convinced of AI's immense potential as a thought partner for his creative work. On this episode, Iain talks about using AI to make more space for the creative parts of your work, and why, in a world where everyone has access to the same tools, it's never been more important to lean into the skills, context, and experiences that make each of us most unique—and most human.Learn more about Sounds Fun soundsfun.co~ ~ ~Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox Dash—the AI universal search and knowledge management tool from Dropbox. Learn more at workingsmarter.ai/dashYou can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.aiThis show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Dominic Girard, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrators Justin Tran and Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck. Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart. Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

In this episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast, host David Green is joined once again by Mikael Wornoo, Co-Founder of TechWolf - a company at the forefront of skills intelligence. Bringing fresh insights from the frontlines of AI and workforce strategy, together they explore where leading companies are heading, and what HR needs to do to stay ahead of the curve. From adoption challenges to ethical concerns, in this episode, you can expect to learn more about: How the conversation around AI and skills is shifting—and what's driving the change Why skills-based workforce planning is becoming a business-critical priority The human side of AI: navigating adoption, mindset shifts, and ethical concerns The data and insights HR needs to lead meaningful transformation How to build a fair, skills-powered future—and avoid a “winner-takes-all” dynamic This episode is sponsored by TechWolf. TechWolf helps enterprises get fast, accurate, and actionable skills data—without surveys. From identifying the skills your workforce has to mapping what they need, TechWolf's AI integrates seamlessly with your existing systems to turn messy data into strategic advantage. Learn more at techwolf.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Bespoken Spirits isn't your typical whiskey distillery. Yes, they're based in the American bourbon heartland of Lexington, Kentucky, and yes, they often make private label whiskeys for clients. But everything from how Bespoken Spirits distills their whiskey to how they market it is done with the help of AI. Jordan Spitzer, their head of flavor, can finish a whiskey in days instead of years—while precisely crafting its taste—using their machine-learning backed approach. And Wane Lindsey, their director of marketing, credits AI tools with helping his tiny team punch way above their weight.The result is a whiskey that may not be traditional, but still tastes great—and in a fraction of the time it would otherwise take. That's time they can spend on the creative side of their craft and the work that has the most meaning: building brands and bespoke spirits that people will want to drink.On this episode, Jordan and Wane share how AI has helped them explore creative new ways to make and market whiskey—and why, no matter how smart our tools get, there's still no substitute for human taste.You can learn more about Bespoken Spirits at bespokenspirits.com~ ~ ~Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox Dash—the AI universal search and knowledge management tool from Dropbox. Learn more at workingsmarter.ai/dashYou can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.aiThis show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Dominic Girard, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrators Justin Tran and Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck. Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart. Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

Amanda Cupido doesn't speak Spanish or French. But using AI, she and her team helped a global nonprofit make their internal podcast more accessible to as many employees as possible. Amanda is an audio producer and the founder of a production company called Lead Podcasting. One of her clients is a global nonprofit with over 35,000 employees—and not all of them speak English. So she made them a pitch: what if they added AI into the mix? They would make the podcast in English, and then use generative AI voice tools to translate it into Spanish and French—with a lot of human oversight, of course. Driven by a desire to use these tools for good, the goal was never to replace people, but to reach more people, and it worked.On this episode, Amanda shows what it's like—and what it sounds like—to make a podcast with AI that's still human at its core.You can learn more about Lead Podcasting at leadpodcasting.com~ ~ ~Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox Dash—the AI universal search and knowledge management tool from Dropbox. Learn more at workingsmarter.ai/dashYou can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.aiThis show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Dominic Girard, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrators Justin Tran and Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck. Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart. Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

What if biotech teams could automate the most information-intensive parts of bringing a drug to market? In this episode of Data in Biotech, host Ross Katz speaks with Convoke co-founders Alex Telford and Maged Ahmed about building an AI-native knowledge acquisition and curation system for biopharma. Learn how they're transforming clinical research, regulatory writing, and competitive intelligence using LLMs, semantic search, and scalable data infrastructure. ​​What You'll Learn in This Episode: >> How Convoke unifies public and private biotech data into a single workspace for smarter decision-making >> Why structured outputs and semantic layers are key to high-quality AI-driven insights >> Real-world use cases including clinical trial design, competitive landscape analysis, and regulatory documentation >> How feedback loops and model evaluations drive product reliability and user trust >> The future of AI in biotech: continuous decision-making and multimodal intelligence Meet Our Guests Alex Telford is Co-Founder and CEO of Convoke, an AI-native OS transforming drug development workflows. His background in life sciences consulting drives his mission to unify data and streamline outputs like clinical documents and regulatory submissions. Maged Ahmed is Co-Founder of Convoke and a former AI lead at Applied Intuition. He brings deep data infrastructure expertise to biotech, aiming to reduce friction in regulated environments by automating knowledge generation. About The Host Ross Katz is Principal and Data Science Lead at CorrDyn. Ross specializes in building intelligent data systems that empower biotech and healthcare organizations to extract insights and drive innovation. Connect with Our Guest: Sponsor: CorrDyn, a data consultancyConnect with Alex Telford  on LinkedIn Connect with Maged Ahmed on LinkedIn Connect with Us: Follow the podcast for more insightful discussions on the latest in biotech and data science.Subscribe and leave a review if you enjoyed this episode!Connect with Ross Katz on LinkedIn Sponsored by… This episode is brought to you by CorrDyn, the leader in data-driven solutions for biotech and healthcare. Discover how CorrDyn is helping organizations turn data into breakthroughs at CorrDyn.

Very few people get paid to visit shipwrecks—but for Stephanie Gandulla, it's all part of the job. Stephanie is a scuba diver, maritime archeologist, and resource protection coordinator for the Thunder Bay National Marine Sanctuary. The agency safeguards Lake Huron's historic shipwrecks, many of which have yet to be discovered. That's where Katie Skinner comes in. She's an assistant professor at the University of Michigan and the director of the school's Field Robotics Group. Skinner and her team have been developing autonomous underwater vehicles that can find new shipwreck sites, all on their own. For humans, a search is costly, time-consuming, manual work. But for AI? Skinner thinks it could help us find answers in a snap. On this episode, Stephanie and Katie talk about using AI to find shipwrecks in a literal lake of data, so that they can spend less time searching and more time exploring—as only humans can do.You can learn more about some of the people and projects featured in this episode, including… The Thunder Bay National Marine Sanctuary at thunderbay.noaa.govKatie Skinner and the University of Michigan's Field Robotics Group at fieldrobotics.engin.umich.eduPrevious efforts to autonomously map Thunder Bay's historical shipwrecks at theverge.com/2020/3/5/21157791/drone-autonomous-boat-ben-shipwreck-alley-unh-noaa-great-lakes-thunder-bay~ ~ ~Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox Dash—the AI universal search and knowledge management tool from Dropbox. Learn more at workingsmarter.ai/dashYou can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.aiThis show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Dominic Girard, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrators Justin Tran and Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck. Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart. Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

Welcome to episode #1000 of Six Pixels of Separation - The ThinkersOne Podcast. Patrick Tanguay is a self-described generalist, synthesist and curator whose lifelong curiosity and love of reading have led him across multiple careers, and now shape one of the most thoughtful newsletters in the futures-thinking space. As the creator of Sentiers, a weekly “futures thinking observatory” (and one of my most favorite reads), Patrick spotlights signals of change across technology, society, and culture. He helps readers trace emergent paths instead of prescribing them. Alongside his writing, he designed and launched Station C, one of the first co-working spaces, co-founded the print magazine, The Alpine Review, and seeded communities like Creative Mornings and some of the earlier community get-togethers for the digital enthusiasts. For episode #1000, Patrick guides us through how he curates global currents of change, explores how platform design, sense-making systems and personal knowledge management influence our capacity to understand the future, and why the skills of generalists matter now more than ever. He walks us through why Sentiers became such a respected newsletter and how its architecture reinforces and expands his handwritten trail of ideas. Across the show we consider how to build a personal “observatory,” not just follow feed algorithms, how to connect seemingly disparate signals from AI to city futures, and why being able to notice what's happening before everyone else is becoming more crucial... and more rare. This is an episode for curious minds, digital gardeners and anyone searching for clarity amid chaos. I hope that you will also take a couple of moments to listen to my opening monologue about my reflections on the past 1000 episodes (nearly 20 years), and what the future will hold for this show starting next week. Enjoy the conversation… Running time: 1:28:08. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Listen and subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Listen and subscribe over at Spotify. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Six Pixels of Separation. Feel free to connect to me directly on Facebook here: Mitch Joel on Facebook. Check out ThinkersOne. or you can connect on LinkedIn. ...or on X. Here is my conversation with Patrick Tanguay. Sentiers. The Alpine Review. Follow Patrick on LinkedIn. Chapters: (00:00) - The Evolution of Six Pixels of Separation. (04:14) - Introducing Patrick Tanguay. (05:31) - The Art of Thinking and Curating. (20:56) - Foresight and Future Thinking. (29:54) - Navigating the World of AI. (41:41) - The Role of Reading in Deep Thinking. (01:00:08) - The Future of Knowledge Work. (01:10:04) - The Intersection of AI and Human Purpose.

Ian Ramirez has spent his career finding innovative ways to make mouth-watering meals for clients—and one of his latest ingredients is artificial intelligence. As a chef, culinary consultant, and co-founder of Mad Honey Culinary Studio and Goods, he's the guy that brands hire to get their product on restaurant menus, and make it look and taste good—whether it's a sauce, syrup, spread, or spice. Ian uses AI to tackle the repetitive, time-consuming parts of menu planning for commercial kitchens, and help clients visualize new concepts before anything gets sliced or diced. It's a tool that augments his creativity, he says, and makes prep less of a grind. On this episode, Ian talks about how AI is helping him and his team spend more time doing what they love: cooking and getting creative in the kitchen.Learn more about Mad Honey Culinary Studio and Goods at madhoneyculinary.comLearn more about Dropbox Dash—the AI universal search and knowledge management tool from Dropbox—at workingsmarter.ai/dash~ ~ ~Working Smarter is brought to you by Dropbox Dash—the AI universal search and knowledge management tool from Dropbox. Learn more at workingsmarter.ai/dashYou can listen to more episodes of Working Smarter on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. To read more stories and past interviews, visit workingsmarter.aiThis show would not be possible without the talented team at Cosmic Standard: producer Dominic Girard, sound engineer Aja Simpson, technical director Jacob Winik, and executive producer Eliza Smith. Special thanks to our illustrators Justin Tran and Fanny Luor, marketing consultant Meggan Ellingboe, and editorial support from Catie Keck. Our theme song was composed by Doug Stuart. Working Smarter is hosted by Matthew Braga. Thanks for listening!

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