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If we look at the idea of reactivating your client base in as many ways as possible, it means interacting with the people who have spent the money with us and doing that at a personal level, building the relationship, that's about the best thing we can do. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, cohost Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing reactivating your client base. Welcome Jay. Jay: It's good to be here. You know, it's funny. I hear this everywhere I go now. If I watch Shark Tank or anything else, I hear this term CAC. You know, what is your CAC? And it's your customer acquisition cost. And I have to believe that your CAC, for a customer you've already worked with, has got to be lower than trying to bring in a brand new customer. Am I right? David: Oh, absolutely. And I think instinctively as business people, we probably already know this. We've probably heard it a hundred times, but the purpose of this discussion is not to have you hear it again. The purpose of this discussion is to ask, “are you doing this?” And if so, how well are you doing this? How much better could you be doing this? Because as you pointed out, once you've invested that money to acquire a customer, now you want to be able to leverage that relationship as much as possible to provide them with additional help, additional solutions so that you can generate the revenue. They can get the results they're looking for, and you're not spending more money to attract people. You're able to just expand the relationships that you have with the people who you've already acquired that first time. Jay: Yeah. And I think it's disappointing if you spent that money for customer acquisition and then you don't have a system to retain them or keep them online. And so now it's almost like you're spending the same money twice. If you're trying to get them back again. David: Right. Yes. And so when we think about reactivation, there are a couple of aspects to it. One is just people who haven't bought from you in a little while, to touch base with them again, to reengage those people and to see what they want, what they need. Essentially, requalifying them to find out where they are in that process. Are they ready to buy more things? Do they have a date in mind when they want to buy? Are they ready to go now? Or are they just not ready to do anything? Are they sort of disqualified for the moment? Are they unresponsive to you? Because they'll generally fall into one of those five categories. They're either ready to buy. They have dates in mind when they want to buy. They're open to the idea, but not sure when. Or they're disqualified, or they're not responsive. When you are able to go back and sort of requalify your existing clients, you can reactivate the ones who are ready to go now. You can schedule the ones who know when they want to go next. And the ones who are generally receptive, you can just stay in touch. Jay: Yeah. Or what about the ones who were disappointed, but they didn't take the time. Right? So many customers will never tell you that they had a bad experience. They just move on and… David: Yeah. Jay: you had no idea. So you're not improving your customer service and your chance of reviving that customer is very low. David: Yeah. And that's an excellent point, too. Because as you indicated, if you don't know that, but you're reaching out to them to see how you can help next, and you find out about that problem, then at least you have the possibility of restoring the relationship, if not doing anything about the previous order. Jay: Yeah. So what are we talking about here? Like good drip campaigns? Is that kind of where you would start? So you're in constant contact? What do you think is the best way to go about this? David: Well, I do think it starts with engaging your people. You can engage your people in a lot of different ways. It can be done via email with a drip campaign.

Reimagining the essentials is different for everyone. And I hear both sides of that from people. I hear people who are like, ” oh yeah, you know, I've been doing this forever. I know exactly what I'm doing and all that sort of thing.” And then I have people on the other side who are like, “Hey, I'm doing all the things that I've done before. I'm doing it more aggressively. I'm doing much more of it. I'm doing it with more people and it's not working.” And so for the people who are struggling with that… again, it's not really a matter of saying, “well, now instead of prospecting, we need to do something different.” No, you're still going to need to do prospecting. The question is, “can we now do it in a way that is going to reach the people that you need to reach, communicate the things that we need to communicate and allow us to advance our communications and close the sales?” David: Hi and welcome to the podcast. Today, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing reimagining the essentials. Welcome, Jay. Good to have you here. Jay: It's so good to be here once again. I'm very excited about today's topic. What's the Point of Reimagining the Essentials? David: Yeah. I mean the whole idea of the essentials to some people it's like, "oh, essentials, that's boring." Right? But it seems to me that in current times we really need to look at the essentials and say, "okay, how can we tweak them or fine tune them or change them around so that they're going to be more effective in a 21st century post-COVID economy?" Jay: Yeah. When I think about essentials, I think about foundational type things. And once you take away the foundation, other things that you have in play don't work as well. So what type of essentials specifically are we talking about that we want to, that we might look at in one when everybody looks at it that way, but we're going to reimagine or rethink about them in a different way? David: Well, I guess when I think of the fundamentals or the essentials, I tend to think of the real basics, prospecting, presenting, following up when it comes to sales. And sometimes you start talking about those things and people's eyes glaze over like, "oh, I know all that stuff." And yeah, we all know we need to do it. Knowing and Doing are Two Different Things We all know we need to do prospecting. We need to make presentations. We need to follow up with prospects and clients. But knowing it, knowing what to do, is really not the issue at all. It's how are we doing it? How well are we doing it? How much better are we doing it than our competitors? How frequently are we doing it? How consistently are we doing it? There are all these different nuanced aspects of it that completely change the results. And when we look at things like prospecting now versus five years ago, 10 years ago, it's completely different. Same thing with presenting, same thing with following up. In the past, it was basically phone and in person. Well now phone and in person are a lot less popular than other methods of communication. So that's really what I'm talking about here. Jay: Yeah, I think again, it's so important, you know, it's so easy to just fall into that trap of I've, you know, we've done it this way forever and it's always worked. I think it's hard for people to break free from those things, because it's hard to know what type of impact you really can have. And I think part of that is even understanding what your baseline is before you can make changes to understand if you're making any progress, right? What Happens When Everything Changes? David: Yeah, absolutely. And I hear both sides of that from people. I hear people who are like, " oh yeah, you know, I've been doing this forever. I know exactly what I'm doing and all that sort of thing." And then I have people on the other side who are like, "Hey, I'm doing all the things that I've done before. I'm doing it more aggressively.

Change is coming... because change is always coming. And we need to try to stay ahead of it. And we're not always going to be able to do that. But we do have the ability to anticipate things that could potentially happen in the not too distant future and say, okay, if this happens, then what am I going to do? How am I going to adapt to that? David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the topic, Change is Coming. Don't Make it Harder. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: It's good to be here, David. Change is hard. Change is not easy in life, in business. We like comfort zones. We like to get in a groove. And I am the first to admit it. If I could find a way to not have to change in business and just cruise, I'm not opposed to just cruising. David: Yeah, well, status quo can certainly be comfortable until it's not, right? It's very comfortable until it's not. And when I say change is coming, I mean, so much of what we've been hearing lately is about all the potential changes that could be coming. And regardless, and I'm not going to get into politics ever at all on this podcast, but regardless of the outcome, there is going to be change coming, because it always does. It's the nature of life. It's the nature of business. Change is always coming. And so, When we try to fight it, when we try to avoid it, we make things harder on ourselves, right? The change is going to come. Now, we're going to have to change our approach very likely. We're going to have to do things differently. We're going to have to plan differently. There are all types of things that we are actually going to have to do. But if we focus on that, rather than the indignity of the fact that change is coming, we make it a lot easier on ourselves. Jay: Yeah, you're exactly right. I think about a change that we all had to go through, and that's the pandemic. And how that was all a change that we wondered if we were going to survive. It was going to destroy our businesses, our workplaces, our way of life, everything. You think about, we're home office now. And we're going to stay that way. And if you had asked me before the pandemic, I would have said, no, that wouldn't work. I look at my friends in the restaurant industry who pivoted to drive through only, and when the time came back to open up their dining rooms, they didn't want to do it. They really liked the drive thru model or the delivery model so sometimes being forced to change and being ready to change. You're going to discover, things that you would have ruled out otherwise, and you're going to be better for it, ideally. David: No question. That exact example, there's a restaurant that we go to in our area a lot, and when the pandemic came and you were no longer able to go into the restaurants, they started a pickup service. And it had never occurred to us to pick up from that restaurant before. We always went in, sat down, enjoyed the meal, and that was it. But after a while, you're like, well, I could really use some of that food. We don't feel like cooking. Okay, I'm going to give it a try. I'll go pick it up. And all of a sudden, that door was open for us as well. And so after you were able to go back into the restaurant, there were still a lot of times, and there are times now where we'll still pick things up and bring it home because now we know that it's possible. So what it gave them is a new revenue stream, right? At the time they had a new revenue stream, but they didn't have their primary revenue stream. So they were hurting. But then after things opened up again, they got the regular business back and now they have this takeout service that people are using more and more, it actually allows things to grow. So it's a perfect example why our topic is so appropriate. Change is coming. Change is inevitable. It's happening all the time. And the more we resist reality, the more problems we have. Jay: Yeah,

Particularly in the early stages, breaking through a sales plateau may just mean doing more of what you're doing. But generally, at some point, we hit a plateau that is created by the fact that we can't run any faster. We can't do any more by ourselves. So we either need to implement new procedures and new processes, we need to get some help, or something needs to change fundamentally in the business in order to get us to that next level. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, cohost Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing the idea of breaking through your sales plateau. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: It's so good to be here again with you David, and as always, I'm very excited about this topic. I know businesses that hit these thresholds. It can be a monumental task to get to the next level and they're not sure how to do it. Is it, is it marketing? Is it adding new products? I think that's what a lot of them try to do. They're like, well, let's add 10 more products to the lineup and then we'll do it. And oftentimes that can just make the situation worse and not better. David: Yeah, it's true. Most businesses, I think it's safe to say, at some point run into some sort of plateau. They hit a level of sales and they can't get past it. I believe in small businesses this is particularly true, where you're just working and pushing and you're trying to get to that next benchmark. And you just can't reach it. And there are thresholds, I believe in small business, getting to your first hundred thousand in gross sales and then your first 250, and then you hit 500 and then a million and then 2 million and going from there. And in the early stages, you can generally do pretty well, like to get from a hundred thousand to 250 is often easier than it is to get from a million to 2 million. But most of us, at some point, will encounter some sort of sales plateau. You get there, you see it, you're targeting it, you're working toward it and you just can't seem to hit it. And so it's really just a matter of getting stuck. It's like, I feel like I'm stuck and I'm here and I need to be here and I'm not sure what to do next. Jay: Yeah. And I wonder how much of it is that they're not really sure how they got to the first plateau. I mean, they may think that they know, David: That's true. Jay: But it could be something completely different. And this could go back to something we talked about in a previous podcast: following up with your customers. Find out why they purchased, how they feel about their purchase. Are they returning customers? Are they not returning customers? So if you didn't understand why they bought in the first place and how they felt about that purchase, it's going to be hard breaking through that next plateau. David: It is, absolutely. And the biggest hangup that I see for most people is not knowing, "what do I do next?" And as you indicated, people get to a certain point in some cases, they're not sure how they did it. What's that referred to as? Unconscious competence? Jay: Mm-hmm, David: Where I'm doing things and it's working, but I'm not even sure of what I've done. So I haven't gotten around to building a system around it to put that into place so I can replicate it. But there's also the idea that what gets me to here will not necessarily get me to here. Right? So what gets me to level one won't necessarily get me to level two. That's not always the case, particularly in the early stages, you can do more of what you're doing to get to a higher level. But generally, at some point, we hit a sales plateau that is created by the fact that we can't run any faster. We can't do any more by ourselves. So we either need to implement new procedures and new processes. Or we need to get some help. Or something needs to change fundamentally in the business, in order to get us to that next level. Jay: Yeah, something that can be very hard for people,

On this episode, my guests are and of the Podcast.Clementine Morrigan is a writer and public intellectual based in Montréal, Canada. She writes popular and controversial essays about culture, politics, ethics, relationships, sexuality, and trauma. A passionate believer in independent media, she's been making zines since the year 2000 and is the author of several books. She's known for her iconic white-text-on-a-black-background mini-essays on Instagram. One of the leading voices on the Canadian Left and one half of the F*****g Cancelled podcast, Clementine is an outspoken critic of cancel culture and a proponent of building solidarity across difference. She is a socialist, a feminist, and a vegan for the animals and the earth.Jay is a writer, artist and designer from Montreal and is the author of the Substack jaylesoleil.com and the zine series What Else Is There to Live For. Jay is also the co-host of F*****g Cancelled.Show Notes:Clementine & Jay's TravelsThe NexusIdentitarianism and Identity PoliticsGentrification & SolidarityHow Nationalism Leaks into the LeftThe Contradictions of IdentitarianismFreedom, Limits and GuesthoodBorders and BiomesThe Quest for Offline CommunitiesRadical & Reciprocal HospitalityAuthenticityHomework:Clementine's SubstackJay's Substack (including Dumplings & Domination)Clementine's ShopJay's StoreF*****g Cancelled ShopF*****g Cancelled PodcastTranscriptChris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the pod, Clementine and Jay. It's an honor to have you both here today. Each of your work both individually and together has been a great influence on mine and definitely eye-opening and if I can say so much needed in our time. So thank you for joining me. Jay: Thank you, man. Thanks for having us.Clementine: Thanks for having us.Chris: So, I'd like to start, if we can, by asking you both where you find yourselves today and what the world looks like for you through each of your eyes.Jay: Well, we both find ourselves in Montreal which is where we live. I was working in homeless shelters for years and then I got let go cause I tried to unionize the one I was working at. Actually I succeeded in unionizing the one I was working at. And they mysteriously did not have any money to renew my contract after that.And yeah, so I'm writing and I just launched a new solo podcast about like world history outside of the West. And so I've been working on that. It's called [00:01:00] dumplings and domination, which are two things that human beings love. And Yeah, so that's, that's what I'm up to. Clementine: Yeah, so I'm also, yeah, I find myself in Montreal, in the snow, and I guess, relevant to the topics of this podcast one of the things I'm grappling with now is my perpetual existence as a unilingual anglophone in the city of Montreal, which is a bilingual city, but it's a French city, like.Actually. And I'm planning on having a child and I'm planning to have this child here. And so I'm facing the dilemma of being like an English speaker whose child is not going to just be an English speaker. And so I really need to learn French, basically. So this is my struggle, because being 37 and only speaking one language my entire life, it's like super hard to learn another language.And I've really, really struggled. A couple times I've made an attempt to learn French, and it's like really [00:02:00] frustrating, but that is one of the things I'm grappling with. I feel like it's relevant to the podcast, because in many ways, even though I've lived in Montreal for like almost seven years, there's a way in which I still am kind of like a tourist here, because I haven't learned the language.So, will I complete my transition into becoming Quebecois? Chris: Yeah, maybe so. Jay: Only time will tell. Chris: I was just reading this biography of Ivan Illich, who's like was an Austrian philosopher and he said that like trying to learn a new language, especially if you're immersed in the place is the greatest measure or degree of poverty that one can undertake because of the degree of dependence that they have on other people and not just dependence, but like dependence on their hospitality, assuming it exists in order to, you know, be able to understand what you're saying and communicate in that way. Clementine: Like Montreal is interesting because at least in the neighborhood that I live and in many places in [00:03:00] Montreal, it's functionally bilingual. So it's not like learning in an immersive environment as if you went somewhere and everybody's speaking that language.So you kind of just have to or you won't be able to communicate. Like you have to learn here. You know, when I'm fumbling around trying to speak French, people just start speaking English to me because even if they're a francophone, like, at least in the neighborhoods where I live, most people are bilingual, and they speak better English than I do French, so they will accommodate me, which is polite of them, and also, It does not help me learn, you know?Jay: Whereas the government of Quebec will not accommodate you. Clementine: No, the government will not accommodate you at all. And so, like, it's only in circumstances where, like, I desperately need to understand where, like, there's no, there's absolutely no accommodation. So. Chris: And that kind of touches on my next question, which is, you know, in terms of the travels that you two have.Has there been that degree of poverty elsewhere? I mean, I imagine you might have traveled to other places maybe in Canada, maybe elsewhere. [00:04:00] What have your travels taught you each, if anything, about the world, about your lives, about culture? Jay: Yeah. I had kind of an unusual relationship with travel.Because as a kid, I moved to a different country every like three or four years cause of my parents work. And so, yeah, I grew up like in Asia and not just like dipping into a place and then like leaving right away but spending years of my life in each country. Right. And like learning the languages and stuff.And so, yeah, I think that was a quite an unusual way to kind of experience travel as a kid. And I think that it did definitely have a lot of impact on me. Because I think that travel in general, I think is a wonderful and amazing thing, you know, which is why people like to do it. And it can be really profound for your mind and your understanding of the world and of other people, you know but obviously there's travel and then there's [00:05:00] travel.I feel really grateful that I was able to see so much of the world by living there, you know and I think that it was really important for me in my kind of embodied understanding that other people and other parts of the world are, you know, just as real and just as important and just as embedded in history as I am and as like the people are in my passport country, which happens to be Canada, you know?Clementine: Yeah. I've traveled a little bit, but I think for me, like, When I was young, I was too crazy to travel, you know, and I truly mean that, like I have complex PTSD and like as much as my life was so chaotic and like really, like, you know, on F*****g Cancelled, Jay and I talk about how we're both alcoholics in recovery, like, When I was drinking, I always wanted to be someone who traveled, and my life was very, like, chaotic and full of violence and danger and all those types of things, but the PTSD made it really hard to do [00:06:00] anything because I was always scared, you know and being a woman traveling... like, in recovery, I've wanted to try to travel more, but the combination of one being a woman traveling alone, it does come with certain risks to it.You're more vulnerable in certain ways and then add that to the PTSD. It's like... it's super anxiety producing, you know, so it's something that I've done a little bit but not as much as I would have liked to and I guess we'll see like what the future holds with that. One thing is is that like I learned to drive pretty late.I learned to drive in my 30s and once I learned to drive going on road trips was actually a way that really opened up travel for me because having my car with me gave me this sense of like safety, basically, that I could leave a situation like I was there with my car. So I had like the independence to like not be dependent on like strangers because I was afraid of them basically.But we went on a podcast tour last [00:07:00] year and drove like all across the United States in like a month and like drove down to like Arizona and like back up the West coast. And like, that was really, really cool. Chris: Beautiful. Thank you both. And so, you know, it might seem a little strange for you two to be invited on a podcast about tourism, migration, hospitality given that, you know, perhaps on the surface of things, your work doesn't appear to center around such things, but I've asked you both to speak with me today, in part, because I see a lot of parallels between what you've both referred to as the nexus in your work and what I refer to as the, a touristic worldview. And so to start, I'm wondering if you two could explain for our listeners, what the nexus is and its three main pillars.Clementine: So, in shorthand, or in, like, common language, you might call it social justice culture. There's a lot of different ways that this culture has been talked about but it's a particular [00:08:00] way of doing politics on the left, or left of center. And. Like, Jay and I come from inside this culture, so we are coming from inside social justice culture, being, like, leftists and being queer people and having existed in, like, progressive social justicey spaces for our entire adult lives, basically.And basically, we're noticing that there wasn't really language to talk about some of the phenomenons that were happening inside social justice culture or even, you know, social justice culture itself doesn't really give itself a name. Like we can call it social justice culture or we could call it something else, but it doesn't really have a name that it like claims for itself.It basically describes itself as like just doing politics or like being morally correct, you know, right? Yeah, being right. So we just started using the nexus as kind of like a placeholder for talking about a phenomenon that like doesn't really have a name. And we were trying to describe like this social phenomenon that we were totally [00:09:00] immersed in that there wasn't really language to describe. And we pulled out like three components that we saw interacting with each other to produce this phenomenon that we were calling the Nexus. And those pillars or components would be cancel culture, social media, and identitarianism. So, you maybe want to say more. Jay: Yeah, and we were just noticing how like when those three components were interacting on the left, you know they were producing a kind of like fourth thing that we were calling the Nexus and it's just like cancel culture was kind of this, you know, this culture of disposability and very sort of like intense acrimony functioned to sort of like boundary the whole thing and to keep, you know, certain views out and keep certain views in and sort of like establish the boundaries of what was thinkable or not.And the identitarianism provided the sort of ideological underpinning of the whole thing, like a way of making sense of the world, a [00:10:00] way of thinking about any problem and any issue, you know? And then social media was kind of the medium in which it was all taking place. And that was providing a lot of the kind of like the scaffolding of what it ended up looking like.Yeah. Does that make sense? Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you both. And so I like to start then if I can with with identitarianism and you know as it pertains to, I guess, the end of tourism podcast and the way I've come to understand it is that to be a tourist isn't just to be a foreigner, but a stranger to the place one inhabits.And so in this sense, I feel that people can be tourists in their own homes and to a large degree the housing crisis, among many others seems to enable and ennoble this, you know, people know that they won't be able to afford a rent increase. And so they don't bother getting to know their neighbors or participating in the community.And beyond that community is often described in demographic terms, you know, the black community, the queer community, et cetera. But rarely [00:11:00] anymore in terms of the diverse people that you actually live beside or near. And so, for me, this is where tourism not only hits home, but is kind of unveiled as maybe beginning at home.You know, it's not just an industry, but something akin to a lifestyle or culture, as you said, Jay, of disposability. And so in this context, what I understand is identitarianism seems to enable this kind of touristic mentality of not needing to think of myself as a person of consequence in my building or in my neighborhood because I'll be out of here in another year or two anyway, right?And so I'm curious what you think of this idea and whether you think that identitarianism is a consequence of these crises that exist today, like the housing crisis, like landlordism, for example. Jay: Yeah, I definitely think it's all connected.And I think that I think that a huge part of all of this, right, is accelerating alienation that people are experiencing under the [00:12:00] dominant form of neoliberal capitalism. And alienation just describes this deep embodied sense of disconnection from oneself, from one's work and from one's fellows.And this is a concept that goes all the way back to Marx and before him even, you know, but Marx, I think correctly identified that capitalism had a mechanism within it that amplified this, this sense and created more of it. And I think that as we hurdle down the path of neoliberal apocalypse, we're sort of like more and more exposed to the sense of alienation.And so what does that mean? It means that we end up feeling like we don't know who we are. We don't know where we are. We don't know who the people around us are. We're just sort of floating, we're atomized, you know. We don't have roots or the connections that we do have feel fleeting and shallow.You know, and it produces obviously a deep sense of like misery in a lot of people, [00:13:00] whether they know it or not, I would say. But it also produces a longing for connections that feel real and that feel authentic. And I think that the turn towards identitarianism that has become more and more apparent over the last like decade or so both on the left and the right because I think that the rise of like the alt right, for example, was very much an identitarian movement as well. Yeah, it's that, that pivot towards identitarianism is a consequence of people feeling like they have no connections and they really want connections. They want to feel embedded in something, you know and so they're looking for other forms of community that they can belong to other than the communities that they actually live in, you know, because those communities that they actually live in have started to feel so disconnected and illusory, right?I do have more to say about the concept of like authenticity and all of this, which I think is like really foundational to tourism. But I will pass the mic. Well, I feel like we're probably going to get [00:14:00] into it later. Clementine: Okay. Well, yeah. So I mean, I think when talking about identitarianism, it's useful to make the distinction between identitarianism and identity politics.And we make that distinction on the podcast, but in case listeners aren't really familiar with the term identitarianism, I think it's useful for us to be a little bit clear about what we mean. And basically, identitarianism is distinct from identity politics. So, identity politics is just basically saying that identity matters when we're thinking about what is affecting people's lives, right?And when we're organizing politics, when we're trying to think of solutions where we can make the world better, identity is going to play a role. And that just means we're acknowledging that things like racism exists, homophobia exists, like, sexism exists, that the ways that our lives are shaped are impacted by identity.And like, we agree with that, we're not against that, as a framework. But identitarianism takes identity politics to a new place, where it basically does two main things to it. One, it [00:15:00] acts as if identity groups are homogenous, or share, like, very intense essential qualities, you know? So, when you make a statement, like, the BIPOC community thinks this.You're being identitarian and you're also being essentialist because you're actually making a statement in which you're saying that billions of people share a view, which is incorrect and also, like, very disrespectful to the vast diversity of thought that exists within any identity group, right? So it's actually like, it's an expression of essentialism and this belief that, like identity groups share essential qualities.And it erases, like, the vast political differences and personal differences that don't exist always within any identity group. And then secondly, Identitarianism acts as if identity is the primary or only way that power functions. So when we're trying to understand, like, what is wrong with the world, and what is going on, and why are we all suffering?Identitarianism [00:16:00] encourages us to look first, and maybe only, at identity as the way in which power is divided and organized. And so, in this way, you know, we have people, like basically collecting identity points. And what I mean by that is, like, adding up their various identities to try to understand their lives and their access to power.So people will be like, okay, I have these identities that are considered marginalized identities, and then I have these identities that are considered privileged identities. And so if I do some math, I'll be able to figure out where I stand in terms of power, right? And this is a total oversimplification of the way that power works.Identity is probably impacting your life in various ways. and may have a role in like your access to power, but it is not the only thing, and it's not as simple as just adding and subtracting to try to figure this out, and many, many things are lost when we are only using identity as the way to understand power, and so like when you're talking about, I just want to say that like that what you said [00:17:00] about people moving, I think is really fascinating because I moved like every year or two years.My entire, like actually I kind of haven't stopped because I've only lived where I currently live for like just about two years. So, I've basically been doing that since I was 16. I'm 37. Wow. Chris: Wow. Wow. Clementine: You know, and like, I don't mean cities, but I mean neighborhoods and at least apartments, you know, and actually my current neighborhood I've lived in probably the longest that I've ever lived anywhere but I've still moved several times and I've managed to stay in the same neighborhood, but like over the course of my teenage years, all my entire twenties and into my thirties, like, I was just constantly moving.And, you know, I, I had a sense of place in terms of the city I lived in. Like, I was living in Toronto for most of for my twenties. But I lived all over that f*****g city. Like, all over that city. You know, I didn't live in any particular neighborhood. And so because of that, like, I didn't really have that sense of like place and like there wasn't really a point in knowing my neighbors because it's true. I was going to [00:18:00] be moving and I knew that and so that is like a material reality that is being structured by capitalism and by landlords and rent and not having enough money and not having housing security.And identitarianism isn't really helping me to understand that, right? Like I can't really make sense of that experience if my only lens that I'm looking at the situation with is identity. And that's just like one example, but there's many, many things that, identity as if it's our only frame is not going to help us to understand.Jay: Or like it, it might help you feel like you understand it, but it's probably not going to give you a very good explanation, you know clear picture. Yeah, it's like there's this word that I stumbled across recently. I think it's like "monocausotaxophilia" I'm pretty sure is what it is and it's like the it's like the obsessive belief that like one there's like one answer for everything or like one thing can help you explain everything and it's it's like a common like logical fallacy that humans fall into, where like we just we discover something that really seems like it's right and then we're [00:19:00] like this can explain everything we can just apply this to everything, you know, and I think that identitarianism is like a an excellent example of this tendency that humans have Chris: Yeah.Wow. Kind of monotheism for politics, I guess. It's fascinating for me because I see a lot of these identitarianist dynamics play out in the context of tourist cities and the one that I lived in, still live around, just not in anymore.And then of course the people that I interview who deal with over tourism and of course all the crises that come with it. And so You know, like in the early pandemic, for example, in places like Oaxaca or Medellin in Colombia, for example, they suddenly became hotspots for digital nomads and other tourist escapees.And the consequences of over tourism in these places already existed, but once travel restrictions had [00:20:00] dropped and vaccines were doled out, places like this, and maybe the more obvious ones like Bali or Hawaii or Barcelona those consequences exploded and, you know, the number of visitors skyrocketed. And so both local people and foreigners opened Airbnb after Airbnb, and this is kind of what ended up happening in a lot of places in the, in the course of, you know, a couple of years essentially deepening the economic and social divisions in those places. And so what we've seen is that people simply tend to point their finger at the tourists, at the foreigner, ignoring the economic and political issues that affect these things.And so, what's arisen on the internet at least have been faceless social media accounts basically cancelling tourists or foreigners for you know anything you can think of for being cheap, people complaining about prices on their YouTube video or whatever, and others criticizing local cultures for X Y Z Zed pardon me and some Some who [00:21:00] refuse to, like, to speak the local language, for example, all of which, you know, constitutes bad behavior.And even still, like, other people, foreigners who become landlords in their new homes, right, who move to another country and just, you know, rent a nice place and then put it on Airbnb or something. And so, I'm curious about the individual? And why do you think, in so many of these cases, especially in regards to people who claim to be leftists or anarchists or radicals, that the focus is squarely put on individuals or individual behavior as opposed to the conditions or systems that created that behavior?Jay: Oh yeah, I mean, we've become like ludicrously unable to actually look at structural causes of anything in a way that allows us to formulate policy and work towards policy. Like, I think that like one of the major like failings of the left currently is that it is, especially in like the Anglo world, like completely f*****g unmoored from policy.I think in the US there's like a really [00:22:00] obvious reason for that, which is that there is, you know, no political party that's even remotely. So the idea that you could, that you could have policy that you like is sort of like nonsense to people in the first place. Right.So everything then becomes about either it would become either about individual behavior or about some sort of like more radical revolutionary option, you know but the radical revolutionary option doesn't exist. So it's all about the individual behavior. And a comparable situation is going on elsewhere in the Anglosphere as well where the sort of like political avenues for policymaking are severely lacking.So I think that there's this like strong, strong emphasis on the individual, on individual behavior, on moralizing on sort of angrily saying what should be true rather than working with like, you know, like reality. Yeah. Clementine: Yeah, I think that people, like, we haven't seen an effective left in our lifetime, like, you know, like we haven't seen the left making gains, like, for [00:23:00] millennials, like basically for our entire lives, you know?We haven't seen movements be successful, and so we feel very powerless. Like, there's a deep, deep sense of powerlessness in the face of capitalism and in the face of climate change and in the face of so many of the horrible conditions that we're living under, and we don't have a lot of evidence of things working, but we know we have the power to take down some individual person and publicly humiliate them and destroy their life.And so I think people get very addicted to that sense of power because it is like a balm to the abject helplessness that we feel under capitalism where we don't have a lot of power to really make the changes that we want to make, you know, but one of the things we're always talking about on the podcast is how cancel culture, while it provides this like temporary relief and this feeling like we're doing something like we have power.In fact, it erodes the very conditions that would allow us to have real power and the conditions that would allow us to have real power are solidarity. Right. Like, the one thing that the working class of the world [00:24:00] has that the capitalists don't is our numbers, right?Like, they have all the money and the use of force, you know? But we, there's just lots of us, and also we are the ones who make all their s**t. Like, or like, run their little online companies or whatever it is that they're doing now. Yeah, exactly. So, it's like literally the workers of the world are the ones who actually make capitalism run and there are no profits if the workers of the world organized and f*****g withdrew their labor, right? But currently, we don't have any conditions of like an organized working class movement that could actually threaten to do something like that. And so, there's no real avenue. Like unions have been like totally f*****g eroded there's no solidarity.There's no, like Workers movement that is being effective. I mean there are attempts at it like there was I don't know what happened with it because I'm off social media now, and I haven't been checking the news, but there was a gigantic like uprising of Bangladeshi textile workers who were like going on strike and like the police were trying to totally shut them down.I don't know what ended up happening kind of disappeared off my radar, but I think any movement for solidarity, you [00:25:00] know, cancel culture b******t aside, because honestly, it is such a distraction. Like it's annoying and it's a distraction would have to move towards like international solidarity.And I think that this is something that... we don't even have, like, solidarity, like, where we live, let alone solidarity, like, across the globe with workers in different places, you know? But under global capitalism, I think we're going to have to start looking with an internationalist lens and thinking about what would it look like to have the workers of the world actually uniting.Jay: Yeah. It reminds me of gentrification, you know? It's like, individual gentrifiers are sure like annoying, right? You know, people who sort of like don't belong there and are bringing their like annoying habits into the neighborhood or whatever, you know, and driving up prices and all this.But at the end of the day, this is like a structural issue that can only be solved by policy, right? You can't, you can't just sort of like be hostile towards gentrifiers and expect that to sort of like end up with anything other than you being angry and other people perhaps being frightened for like a couple of years until the [00:26:00] process of gentrification is complete.And I think that you know, there's like a similar thing with tourism, you know, I mean, tourism is just kind of like gentrification on like a, an international scale in a certain sense. Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I mean here in Oaxaca, tourism is like 85 90 percent of the economy in the center of the city. And so it's all changing really quickly, wherein, people are sometimes hearing more English than Spanish in the streets, right? Not just in Oaxaca, but in other places as well. So there's this relative and understandable kind of resentment against the foreigner, but then when we have these gatherings and, you know, people ask me, well, like, "what should we do?" And I say, "well, go talk to the tourist, like, you can build solidarity with that person, even if it's by them understanding what's going on here, and maybe not coming back. As an extreme example, right. But what's also happened as a result, not just this waving or wagging the finger at the individual, but also in the context of identitarianism, reconvening the nation state.[00:27:00] And so my next question.. It kind of feeds off of the first and has to do with the effects or consequences of this kind of pseudo cancel culture that arises from tourism crises in places like Oaxaca and others. And so what you tend to see are locals identifying tourists or foreigners based on skin color.In Latin America, you know, the tourist is by and large the gringo, or the gringa, basically a white American. And what's happening as a result, especially among people who consider themselves, again, leftist or anarchist, is that they end up self identifying in opposition to the foreigner. And so what we see is an over identification, or what I will call anyways an over identification, with one's own skin color, class, and especially, especially now, nationality.And so, understanding the other as American means I'm Mexican or Colombian, or whatever, right? And I'm curious whether or not either of you consider [00:28:00] identitarianism to be a child of nationalism or how nationalism fits into these contemporary understandings of identitarianism.Jay: Right, right. Well, okay, I definitely have some thoughts about that for sure. I would say that like, nationalism is certainly one of the kind of original modern identities, right?And it was very much like crafted on purpose to be that, which I think that a lot of people don't know, unless they've like, you know, done like a sociology degree or something, but nationalism and the nation itself was like a modern invention created a couple of hundred years ago for specific political purposes, namely to unite quite disparate populations within at that time, mainly like European countries and to try to get the children of those people to think of themselves as like French instead of Breton, you know and to get them to speak French instead of Breton, right? As an example. And there is similar cases all over Europe. Anyways, that being aside, yes, like [00:29:00] nationalism certainly is like a form of identity and one of the most important forms of modern identity. I think that when we talk about identitarianism, often we end up not talking about nationalism very much because on the left, nationalism tends to be sort of like not the most important identity.It's one that you kind of downplay, especially if your nationality is one of the privileged Western rich nationalities, right? However, obviously if your nationality might you know get you points in, in whatever sort of like game you're playing, then you might, you might play it up.Clementine: Yeah, I have a couple things to say about this. I mean, one, the nexus or social justice culture, that we talk about on F*****g Cancelled, comes out of the United States of America. And the United States of America, they don't know that they're in the United States of America. So, Jay: This might be surprising to people because of the number of flags that are everywhere in America, but they don't know that they're in america.Clementine: They think they're just in the world. They think that that is the world, you know? And so, [00:30:00] there is this like, this lack of awareness or like basically they're not contextualizing what they're thinking and doing in an American context, even though it is, and then they're exporting that to the rest of the world, especially like English speaking places.But then it like leaks out from there. But it is an American way of understanding things based in an American context and an American history, right? And so you see this a lot with identitarianism where the popular framings and understandings around race, for example, that are going around social justice culture right now are specifically coming out of an American context and American constructions around race, and they don't map on perfectly to other contexts, but because it's being exported, because Americans are exporting their culture all over the world, we, in other places, are expected to just take it on and to start using that framework. And people do, but it doesn't really work properly. It doesn't really make sense in a different context. So that is a way in which like nation kind of disappears even though it is operating [00:31:00] in the way that identity is actually being shaped. Another thing that happens, and Jay and I were just talking about this for an upcoming episode. Another thing that happens is that because in North America anyway, like we don't really use nation as a category in identitarian thought, what ends up happening is that people actually racialize their national identity in a weird way to make it make sense in identitarianism. And so one of the ways that this can happen is that people from South America who are white, in a Northern American context, are sometimes racialized and considered people of color because they are not speaking like English as a first language, for example, or because there's cultural markers that are showing them as not North American, and so therefore they are impacted by various types of discrimination and so on and so forth, but in their context, they are actually racialized as white, but then in North [00:32:00] America, they may be racialized as non-white. And so this actually comes through like a I mean, first of all, it shows that race is like a made up category that can shift and be expressed in different ways.But also it is partially like the narcissism of North America that can't conceptualize difference, basically, and understand that, like, a person can actually be white and from South America and speak Spanish, for example. Jay: Which, like, this can also sometimes, we were joking about this, too, because it's true, like, this can also sometimes extend to people not being sure about, for example, like Portuguese people, and sort of like racializing Portuguese people on the basis of their sort of supposed affinity with like Latin America.⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, one thing that I want to mention too, you're just reminding me of this because of my research that you, that you mentioned is that like racialism, which is the idea that race is important and, and as a major identity category that people should care about a lot, let's put it that way, has often existed very [00:33:00] uneasily with nationalism.And so for a lot of like neo Nazis, they're not necessarily like opposed to nationalism, but they would, they would treat racial affinity with much more importance than they would a national affinity, especially when the national affinity is seen to have been kind of polluted by like foreign elements, for example, you know, and a big part of the national project has been to say that, like, we are all members of this national identity, sort of like, no matter who we are, blah, blah, blah. Right. And obviously some of us are more than others, right, is usually is how it's gone, but it tries to integrate like many different groups of people, including, you know, in the United States, for example, including like black Americans.Right. And, you know, the project of the integrated military, for example, has been a big part of the American national imaginary but if you're a white racist, you're not interested in a sort of national identity that, that includes black Americans as [00:34:00] well.Right. And this is also somewhat true on the left in different ways. But yeah, I'll just put that out there. Yeah. And then I guess the only other last thing I would like to say about this is that when we are anti essentialist and anti identitarian on the left, one of the things that, that like an anti racism that is rooted in an opposition to essentialism will argue and put forth is that race is a constructed and made up concept, right, which is something that I believe: race is not a real thing.It is like racism is real, but racism is based on the invention of this way of dividing up people based on race. And so there's a lot of anti essentialist leftists who are arguing this, but one thing that is important is to not confuse race, which is a made up category, with culture and ethnicity, which are real things, right?And one of the things, like, Jay and I have been talking about, and we're going to do an episode about this, or, like, related to these ideas, is, like, we actually care a lot about things, like, language protection, [00:35:00] culture protection, like the importance of people being able to keep and protect their cultural identities is like, it's a very important thing in respecting people's like human dignity.And in Canada, where colonialism has so thoroughly attacked indigenous Canadian people's cultures. They don't have their languages anymore. And like, Protecting language is, like, hugely important for people's mental health and well being, right? So, dividing those two things, that being, like saying race isn't real doesn't mean that we're not in favor of protecting culture and language.Yeah. Chris: Right, right, right. Of course. What's interesting about the, I guess, the reactions to overtourism here, it's not just that, Oh, the gringo is an American, so I'm a Mexican, but it's also racialized. It's also, okay. So who I see on the street, white people, and because I'm dark skinned, it reinforces those dualities, binaries, et cetera but it re-racializes local people, and in the context of Mexico [00:36:00] anyways the roots of their understandings of their racializedness, if I can say that comes from the imposition of race, of races, by the Spaniards, onto them, and saying this is who you are now, 400 years ago.Right? And so the new invasion, the tourism, right, is recapitulating that dynamic in ways in which people internalize the racial impositions that were put on them 400 years ago. Or their ancestors, right, I should say. So it's just mind boggling.Clementine: Yeah, I think, I think it's interesting though, right? Because how do we hold, like, the importance of culture and language and ethnicity while also acknowledging that those things were always shifting, changing, like, were never a static, constant thing, you know?That always included diversity, and within it, language is always changing and evolving. Culture is always changing and evolving, but also those things are real things that you can speak about and point to, and definitely notice when they'restolen from you or when you're no longer allowed to speak your language.Right. So yeah, like, I think we tend to go [00:37:00] to extremes. It's either like it doesn't exist or it's not important, or it's like a very essential, like static thing that has always only been one thing. Chris: Yeah, and also for a lack of history, right? I've been doing this investigation into Macedonian culture, ethnicity, history, etc, in part because my father is a first generation immigrant to Toronto, but from Agaean Macedonia and, you know, the Ottoman Empire was there controlling those lands for four or 500 years.And so the Ottomans were Muslim and the Macedonians weren't Macedonians to them, they were Christians. They were a Christian race, Mm-Hmm regardless of their language. And then when the Ottoman Empire fell, the Greeks and the Bulgarians ended up fighting over that territory, that land, that a lot of people considered to be Macedonian.And so the Greeks and the Bulgarians referred [00:38:00] to the Macedonians as the Macedonian race, no longer the Christian race, but the Macedonian race. So anyways, beyond that, once you get into the 20th century and start speaking in a global context, it's like, no, no, no, they're not the Macedonian race, they're a white race from Macedonia.And so, just this idea that race is inherently tied to skin color is very contemporary and it depends, of course, where it's coming from and who it's coming from, right? This idea of what race is becomes very fluid. I wanted to ask you two about escapism. I was just listening to your episode on freedom as a principle. Mm hmm. One of your most recent episodes and in it, you two speak of carceral institutions, jails, obviously, and I don't think it's very difficult to imagine how a touristic worldview, one built around escapism arises so fervently among people who feel powerless [00:39:00] to change the conditions in the culture that are oppressive and domineering.At the same time the glorification and commodification of that escapism through tourism creates a kind of a culture of abandonment and disposability, in the sense that you're leaving behind all your people and then once you get to this place, well, you're actually not responsible for anything you do there because it's not my, it's not my people, not my home.And so I'm curious, do you think that the freedom, that is usually couched in the freedom of movement has limits? And what do you make of the the inability to stay still in the context of all this?Jay: Man. Yeah, I mean it just makes me think about my own sort of like internal struggles that I have where like, basically like whenever I'm not doing very well, I have this part of me that wants nothing more than to just f**k off and travel sort of like indefinitely. It's like one of my strongest like internal urges, you know.I [00:40:00] don't know. I just keep thinking about that. But yeah, I mean, another thing that comes to mind for me, that is not, not a direct answer to your question, but it's just something that's coming up for me is that like, I think for like so many people in the wealthy West, you know they live in places that are comfortable because they're in the wealthy West, but they're like psychologically so destructive because it's just like these like vistas of like parking lots and like box stores and like depressing nothing places that no one could ever love and I think that like for a lot of people, and I hate to say this because it sounds like snobbish, you know, but it's like, whether or not they know it they are being psychologically attacked by the f*****g places that they live, you know, and there's a part of them that is like, I want nothing more than to get out of here, you know, and see something beautiful, and my question is sort of like, why can't we live in beautiful places? You know, and, and I actually like do live in a beautiful place and I love where I live, you know, [00:41:00] and the neighborhood in Montreal where I live is like gorgeous, you know it's a beautiful place to just walk around and look at stuff.It's very f*****g pretty. And there's a reason why I live here, you know, and I lived in other parts of the city and, and I gave up. You know, bigger, cheaper apartments to live here because I like how it looks and I like how it makes me feel to sort of like leave my house and f*****g walk around. And other people like it too.Millions of people come to Montreal as tourists. We actually have tourists in this neighborhood. And, and like when I leave my house and like walk around the corner, there's like lineups of tourists, you know that I have to sort of like navigate to like get to the gym.Because they're flocking around because it's f*****g nice here. But like a lot of places in North America are really not nice. They're not nice places to look at. They're not nice places to live. You can't f*****g walk anywhere, even if you wanted to you know, everything basically looks the same as everything else, you know?And yeah, it's not surprising to me that people would want to get out of there. Right. Also though, as I say this, it's not just North America that people [00:42:00] come from when they're tourists, right. Right. We're seeing like a gigantic increase in tourism from countries like China. Japan has always produced a lot of tourists, you know? So I think like part of it is just that like, as people get wealthier the desire to just see different things and whatever is always present in people and if they can do it, like there's no particular reason why they wouldn't but I think that it's, it's definitely worth trying to imagine what travel could look like and what like guesthood could look like, you know outside of a context where it's all just like this very commodified process that is not necessarily very great for the people who are on the kind of like hosting end of it.But yeah, again, like I live in a heavily touristed city, but apart from the tourists being quite annoying to have to walk around, like when there's like snow everywhere and they're taking up the whole sidewalk apart from that, and the fact that like Airbnb is a big problem in Montreal they don't bother me much here and I think that like a big part of that is just the, like, you know, Montreal is a very wealthy city, you know, so like an influx of like wealthy [00:43:00] foreigners doesn't like impact it that much other than to sort of like inject cash into the economy, which is not such a bad thing, right? And I do think that like part of the answer to all this is that we need to be like taking seriously internationalist solidarity and like the development of places that are not as developed.And it reminds me of like sort of debates about immigration to the West, you know, and it's like immigration, is a complicated topic and people have lots of different opinions about it, but like a lot of people on the liberal left will, will, will act like immigration is all by itself, like an amazing, awesome thing, always. And then people on the right will act like it's this terrible thing always. And I'm like, I don't know, it's kind of a neutral thing, you know, like there are good and bad things about it. Obviously people being able to travel is like a nice thing. I'll just say this, like, I think that like immigration is a good thing when the places that people are coming from are not so undeveloped or so poor that it's like forcing people out. Right. You know what I mean? And yeah, I dunno, , that was, that was like five [00:44:00] different tensions, so That's great. Chris: Love it. Clementine: So what, what is coming up for me is I saw this drawing that was like of whales swimming in the ocean.And it was like, basically saying something like, borders aren't real, because like, there's no borders in the ocean for whales or whatever. And this is part of this, like, thing on the left, and it's kind of related to what Jay was just saying, that, like, on the left, we do have this, this big like, belief in things like open borders or just free movement, free travel as, like, this positive and, kind of obviously good thing that we should support and I understand it, but at the same time, the fantasy that there aren't different areas in the natural world is false.There might not be borders, but there are biomes. And one of the things about travel that I don't think gets talked about a lot, and that is a big issue with, like, environmental destruction, is actually the reality of biomes and the fact that the movement of people across the world at the rapid way that we do it now [00:45:00] is moving plants, microbes, fungus from biome to biome and in different biomes the way that evolution works is that, like, those ecosystems were totally separate for all of this time, and then when some new, plant, animal, microbe, fungus gets into this new ecosystem, it may be that the other beings that live there have no defense against it, right? And then it causes massive problems, such as what goes on with invasive species.But like, just as a random example, like one of the major things that's causing extinction of bats is the introduction of this fungus into North America that comes from Europe or something and it comes on like tourists. They come and they don't know that they have it on them because it's just like little fungus and then they go and they visit bat caves and then they accidentally infect the bats and the bats are all getting sick and dying, you know, and so I just bring up this random example because the question of like what does it mean to be responsible when we go somewhere [00:46:00] when Even us just going there can cause problems that we didn't intend, you know?And it is a really complicated question. I'm not saying I necessarily have the answer. But especially from an environmental perspective, even if we get climate change under control, even if we deal with, you know fossil fuels, which we're not even close to dealing with, but even if we deal with that, we would still have this big question of, if we are going to continue to travel, say we get rid of planes, and then we have like airships and we're able to fly in a way that's not killing the climate, we still have this big question about what it means when we're bringing things on our clothes by accident.And I'm kind of like, instead of like security at airports, like I wonder if there could be like these places where we go in and we basically have to like leave our things. And like, when we arrive, we get like a special clothes that we wear. I don't know what it would look like because we're carrying fungus on our clothes.Jay: So. It would be really interesting to think about borders in a better world, you know and what that might look like, because I can imagine something like where it's like a supra national kind of like agreement between [00:47:00] different countries and stuff. And like the border is the border of the biome, not the border between the countries, you know?Clementine: Yeah, and I was just talking about it on like an environmental level, which I do think is very important and doesn't really get talked about enough. But I also think we can look at this on a human level where, you know, if we're thinking about like invasive species and like a plant coming in and just growing and taking over, we can also think about how when we bring.You know, for example, English, we can think about English as an invasive species, you know, like English is a species that's going to go there and because it's the language that if people speak more than one language, one of the languages that they speak might be English because it's kind of like taken over the world, then it means more and more people are going to be speaking English and then other languages are going to start dying out.And so this is like literally what an invasive plant species does, you know? And so I think, We need to think about that when we're bringing English into a space. Like, what are we doing in that space? How are we changing that space by bringing English into it? And I say that very self consciously as a unilingual English speaker, but [00:48:00] it is, you know, like.So, like, this idea of what it means to be a responsible guest, what it means to be somewhere, to visit somewhere, we need to think about, not even just the more obvious things, like throwing our garbage around, or being totally disrespectful, or using a place as a party spot, and then leaving, like, all of those things, I think, are very obviously disrespectful, and we need to be more considerate, but there's even more subtle ways, where just our very presence and the way that we bring ourselves can have an impact that we don't intend. That I think is part of the conversation about what it can mean to, to travel in a more ethical and responsible way. Chris: Amen. Amen. Yeah, I'm reminded of, and I don't know how relevant it is for the conversation, but I'm reminded of Terrence McKenna, the great psychedelic bard. He had a hypothesis that the main vehicle of evolutionary change or growth wasn't human beings or mammals, for example, but language.And we were just vehicles for language's evolution and spreading. And that languages are just fighting this secret battle, this secret [00:49:00] war. But, anyways. To speak to what both of you are saying, I interviewed, a man named Daniel Pardo in the first season of the pod, this activist from Barcelona, and he said, you know, "in no way can tourism be sustainable because we can't extend it to everyone on the planet. Like, it's actually impossible to ensure that seven or eight billion people can go on vacation once a year or fly. Right? He said, "there's no right to fly." And, so it's important to ensure that people have these freedoms, but then to what extent can they actually be applied? And I remember being back in Toronto last summer for a few months, and there were whole families and communities of migrants sleeping in front of churches on the street because from what I understand, the Canadian government the year previous had let in something like a million migrants and maybe half of them went to Toronto because it's the financial hub of the country. And there was [00:50:00] simply nothing for them there. There was no plan for them, by the government, there was no jobs, no social support, nothing, right?And so they ended up on the street, sleeping on the street in front of churches, en masse. In terms of the people that I knew who grew up there, and myself, we had never seen that before. And so you can create the freedom to migrate and things like that but what is at the end of that movement, right? So there are definitely these dynamics and nuances that need to be spoken of in terms of travel and the way people travel and the borders and, and biomes that affect the way we move. Yeah, and of course, I could go on and on. I have two more questions for you two, if that's alright? Sure. Okay. So on some of the f*****g canceled podcast episodes you have subtitled the theme of the quest for the offline left. And, you know, I think [00:51:00] largely emphasizing the word offline. And so, you know, what do you think being together offline and organizing offline can do to people whose lives have been shaped around online and social media mentalities?I mean, the three of us are more or less of the age that we still have a lived memory of life before the internet, but what about those who don't? Clementine: Yeah, absolutely horrifying. I mean, I think we are social animals who evolved to be together, looking at each other's faces, like, talking and being in the same space together.Like the alienation that Jay was talking about before, like both leads to our compulsive social media use and our desperate attempt to find community through that, and also completely contributes and worsens the problem, making it a million times worse where we are staring at our phones when we are literally, actually, physically together and could be having a conversation.And that is really like sad and depressing. And I [00:52:00] think that in terms of organizing across difference building solidarity with people... like on the Internet, we can believe that a community is people who share either like an interest or an identity category with us. And that is a community online whereas in real life, community is going to be full of people who are not necessarily like ourselves, who we might not share interests in common with, and we might not share identities in common with, but they actually are the people who are in our spaces in real life, and we actually share many things in common with them that we might not realize because we share a place together, we share a world together and being able to build relationships with people who are different from ourselves is, first of all absolutely necessary as a political strategy if we want to get anything done on the left.But also, it's deeply enriching for our human lives, you know, to be able to meet and talk to people who are not exactly the same, not the same age, not sharing the same politics, like, who are just different from ourselves. So I think it's very important. The other thing is like, the absolute erosion of our [00:53:00] attention span due to social media.I have recently not been on Instagram for, like, a month, and I feel like my brain is, like, damaged, and I'm, like, recovering from a severe damage to my attention span, you know? Like, I wasn't able to read books for years, because I just didn't have an attention span to, like, really keep up with it.It was, like, way harder for me than it used to be when I was younger, you know? Because I have been on the feed that is giving me just five second blips of information and then giving me something else and getting my brain hooked on this, like, dopamine response cycle, which is absolutely horrifying.So, I think it's also really bad for us, like, mentally in terms of our ability to think critically and at length and to, like, pay attention to what we're thinking about. Yeah, Jay: I think that the internet gives people the illusion that things are happening that are not actually happening You know like I don't know you make a a really good post and 2, 000 people like it Wow.Okay. They're all scattered across the f*****g planet. [00:54:00] You know what I mean? It doesn't, you don't know them. It doesn't translate into anything, right? It feels good. And you feel like maybe you're influencing the discourse or something like that, you know but it doesn't translate into anything.And it can give you It can give you the idea that like to be politically active and to be politically successful is to get more people liking your f*****g posts or whatever, you know, but it's not true, right? It also gives people the illusion and Clementine was gesturing at this that a group of people, it's not even really group, it's like a category of people that are like you, is a meaningful sort of group to be in. But let's say like, take like queer people, like LGBTQ community. Okay. And then you extrapolate that to like the whole world, or you can even just extrapolate it to like North America. You know, that's like a scattering of people that are spread out over this enormous geographic area.You couldn't possibly meet them all. Not only because there's so many of them, but also because they're so scattered, right? And you couldn't possibly organize them all and like, and so [00:55:00] on. And, and it's not a community. It's not a community. It is. It's like there's a word I'm looking for and I was, I've been trying to think of it for the past, like five minutes, but I'm just going to say it's like an electorate or something rather than like rather than like a community, you know it's like this, it's this like demographic group that like marketers might market to you or that politicians might try to get to vote for them or something like that. But that's not, that's not what a community is. That's not what a real group is like a real group automatically encompasses difference.Like a, a sort of like authentic human group, like always has differences of like age and occupation and often ethnicity and all these sorts of internal differences that, you know, human groups have always had. Right. And when we try to sort of like make these groups based on identity, which the internet makes very, very, very easy.We like miss. The people that were actually around, like, yeah, but yeah, as for the offline left, I mean, we desperately need to be organizing and in the real world, and I think that[00:56:00] that's not to say that like you can't do anything on the internet.Like the internet obviously has massive advantages for many, many reasons, you know. F**k, there's this like, there's this like image in my head. I'm a very like visual person. I get these like pictures in my head and then I'm like, I have to explain this picture. But it's like the, the thing about like the, the, the groups being this, these kind of like electorates, it's like, if you are this electorate, then you're only choice is to sort of petition your leaders to do something for you. You know what I mean? But like if you are a real and authentic community, you can organize your community to enact something in the real world, you know? And I don't want us to always be in the position of petitioning our leaders, because it presupposes the leaders, it presupposes that we accept their authority, you know, it presupposes that we don't have another option other than to allow a tiny class of parasitical, like rich people to rule everything for us, you know but I would like us to move away from that.Clementine: Yeah. Like just one other thing about that is you'll [00:57:00] see, you know, this gesturing towards actual organizing but through posting, but it's missing the actual organizing piece, which involves building relationships, right? And building trust. And so one of the things you'll, you'll see, like in the last couple of years, I've seen it a few times with different political things that are going on where people will just randomly call for like a mass strike and they'll make a post about it.And they'll be like, on this day, we are calling for people to strike for like this political issue. I saw it for like abortion rights in the United States and I recently saw it for solidarity with Palestine. But it's like, people can't just walk out of their jobs randomly because they will be fired.Like, the point of unions and the point of organized labor is that you have this guarantee where all of these people are taking this risk together in an organized and strategic way and they are trusting each other that they are doing it together and it is their numbers that makes it so that the boss can't just fire them all.And they have strike fund. There's a lot of them and they're [00:58:00] supporting each other to do this and it's organized and they've actually built enough relationship to be like, okay, I trust that my fellow workers are going to do this with me. So, like when I take this risk, it's like the risk is mitigated by the numbers and I know I'm not alone in it.Right. But a social media post cannot produce that. It is not relationship. And so random people reading that, like they're like, "should I just walk out of my job tomorrow?" Like, probably if they do that, they're going to be the only person at their job who's doing that, and they're just going to be fired or reprimanded, best case scenario. And that is not organized at all. And, and so then people are like, "Why aren't you guys walking out of your job? This is not solidarity." And it's like, "you're right. It's not solidarity. Because the solidarity hasn't been built." Like, you have to actually build trust with people to get them to take risks. And if you don't build that trust, and you don't have those actual real relationships, it's not a good idea for people to take those risks because they'll be by themselves taking those risks. Chris: Yeah, begs the question if in order to have solidarity with people elsewhere, does it [00:59:00] have to exist at home first?Clementine: I would say yeah. Absolutely. Jay: And solidarity is kind of meaningless if it's just you. Like it kind of has to be organized, you know, like in some meaningful fashion and that can take place in a small scale or a large scale. But if it was just you feeling solidaristic, like it doesn't, yeah, Clementine: like for example, with the Bangladeshi textile workers, you know. If there was organized labor in North America and say, for example, that like the H&M's were unionized, which I do not think that they are, but if the H& Ms were unionized because, like, the clothing at H&M all comes from Bangladesh, the workers could choose to do a solidarity strike, to strike alongside the Bangladeshi workers, so that the retailers were striking alongside the textile workers, right?And that would be very effective and very cool if that was happening, but in order for that to happen, the retail workers first have to be organized, and they have to have unions, and they actually have to have like an organized labor force here in order to do any kind of meaningful action in [01:00:00] solidarity with the workers in Bangladesh.Chris: Food for thought. Yeah. Thank you both. So my final question. Of the main themes of the pod, one is radical hospitality, which, to me at least, stands as a kind of antidote to industrial hospitality. You know, the systems, the

Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will continue our discussion about the AI Approach to Multiply Your Sales. This is part four in our series, and today we'll be talking about learning, segmenting, and the Three Ds. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, thank you so much, David. I really, really enjoyed this. I know I've said that in previous podcasts, but it's true. After each one, I've gone into my own business and I'm like, okay, I got to apply this and apply that because these conversations are of such value. So I appreciate your time. I love this. And hopefully it's been helpful to everybody else. David: I'm glad, I feel the same way, and I'm really looking at this almost like a mini-course. If people were to put together these four episodes and say, "How much of this stuff am I doing in my business?" You can probably implement some things very quickly that can probably help you get some great results. Jay: 100%. David: All right, so let's do the quick review. And again, what we're talking about here is we asked AI what will help you to multiply your business because that's been a focus of our conversations recently. AI came back with some different responses, and then we're talking about what AI says and how we're able to help implement those things in business with our clients. And so let's just recap. Number one was refine your target audience. Number two, develop a compelling value proposition. Number three, optimize your marketing channels. That was our first episode on that topic. In episode two, we covered points four, five, and six. Number four was enhance your customer experience. Number five, implement a referral program. And number six, leverage the power of content marketing. In episode three of this series, we hit utilize upselling and cross selling strategies, which was number seven. Analyze and optimize your sales funnel, which was number eight, and invest in customer relation management software, CRM, which was number nine. Now we're going to be doing 10, 11, and 12. Eleven and 12 are really bonus because originally I asked it for 10 and then I realized that doesn't break out well if you're doing three in a podcast. So I went back to the AI and I said, give me two more. And it did. So we'll be talking about numbers 11 and 12 in this podcast as well. So number 10 in the list of things that AI says will help you to multiply your sales is: 10: Continuous learning and adaptation. Stay updated with industry trends, attend relevant workshops or conferences, and be open to adapting your sales strategies to meet changing market demands. Well spoken AI! Continuous education. It's a good call! Jay: It is, and some professions actually require it. But again, that continuous education is often on a service or a specialty or things like that. It's not really on customer service or the technology or things like that. I feel like in that regard, so many of us are a hamster on a wheel. You know, we're just trying to keep up with what today is giving us. We're putting grease on the squeaky wheel and we don't have time to really think about staying up on, you know, all the latest trends and those kind of things. David: Yeah. And a lot of people just don't like continuing education, because they feel like so much of it is platitudes. It's like, I already know this stuff. I already know it, right? But knowing what to do is very different than knowing how to do it. And that's really what I've been trying to differentiate in this series of podcasts is that, yes, these are great statements. Continuous learning. That sounds great. But what are you learning? Are you learning things that you can implement immediately? Are you putting in place processes that will allow you to start getting results right away so you can gauge those results and then adapt, change, or tweak the process as you go to make sure that it's working for you?

David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be continuing our discussion on the AI approach to multiply your sales. This is part two in our series, and today we'll be discussing service, referrals, and content marketing. David: Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Thank you so much, David. I'm really enjoying this discussion about AI because I think we've already established there are some great tools and resources with AI, but it's not exactly to the point where it needs to be. But more specifically, can it really speak to your individual situation? How do you pick through that and know what's right for you? David: Exactly, and last week we were talking about the first three recommendations it made, which were define your target audience, develop a compelling value proposition, and optimize your marketing channels. This week, we're going to be talking about its next set of recommendations. And it starts with number four on its list is: 4. Enhance Your Customer Experience. Focus on delivering exceptional customer service and creating a positive experience at every touch point to build loyalty and encourage repeat business. That sounds nice. Jay: It sounds fantastic. Again, just do that. You know, but how do you do that? I think I mentioned in the last podcast that so often people go into business not because they're great at customer service, but because they have a great recipe, or they have a great product. And they don't really think about how to offer that in a great way. I'm in the accounting field now, which kind of blows my mind and is a different conversation. But I find generally, David, that accountants don't know how to give good customer service. And they kind of feel like they have a captured audience and so they don't even try to give good customer service. David: And a lot of accountants also really struggle with marketing because they feel like it's Jay: Yes, yes. David: Kind of, if not beneath them, they feel uncomfortable with it. They don't want to come across as a salesperson. They're very good at what they do and they're less good at finding the people they need to do that sort of thing. And that's why a lot of them, a lot of small business accountants struggle, because they're great at accounting and not so great at the things that we're talking about here that will actually allow them to service more customers. Jay: Yeah, you're exactly right. Where I've come from, the retail side, the customer service side, that's been my whole background. So, we're kind of owning our little space in the marketplace, because we're focusing on that up front, and people recognize a difference immediately. David: Yeah, exactly. So, one of the things we talked about in the previous podcast related to AI telling us how to multiply sales is that some of these recommendations come across as rather general. Okay, so enhance your customer experience is not really the kind of thing you would think of as "okay, this will allow me to multiply sales." It's a necessity. You have to have exceptional customer service in your business if you want to survive, let alone thrive, let alone multiply business. But it doesn't seem to me to be a multiplier in and of itself. However, when we think about this idea, what can we do to make the experience better, what can we do to expedite the experience, make these things happen better and more consistently, that will allow us to get the velocity we need, in my opinion, to be able to then Multiply your sales. In other words, it's not enough to just do a great job with customer service. We need to be able to do it with a cadence of accountability. We need to be able to do it in a way where it's happening consistently. People are able to move through our process, get what they need, feel like they've been extremely well taken care of, and then we can move on to the next person. Jay: Yeah,

David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the AI Approach to Multiply Your Sales. This is part one in a multiple part series, and we're going to start off with targeting, communication, and reach. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David, it's great to be with you. I'm really excited about this series because I think a lot of people shy away from AI. Or they're getting into it and they're hearing a lot of the things that it can do, but they're not sure how to approach it or even if it's the right thing to do for their business. David: Yes. Agreed. And the way this actually came about is that we've been talking for a while over the course of the past several weeks in particular about multiplying your sales. And some people really struggle with this concept. And I thought, well, what does AI have to say on the topic, and how does what AI says about it relate to what we do, and how we help our clients, and do these things line up? So I thought what I'd do is I'd take the answer to the question when we asked AI, "What are your best recommendations in terms of multiplying sales," to see what AI says and then compare that with what we're doing. And so the first three recommendations that it had were based on targeting, communication, and reach. Those are my words, not AI words in particular. But that's pretty much what it broke down to, so I figured that's what we'd start with. Jay: I love it. We're going to do a podcast on AI, and we've asked AI what it thinks first, and now we're going to psychoanalyze AI to see if it's in line. David: Well, to see how it lines up. Because one of the things that I found interesting was that when I asked it about multiplying sales, it was coming back with responses that talked about increasing sales. And so I asked it specifically to come up with recommendations based on multiplying sales. And at first it seemed resistant to that. So it talked about growing sales and multiplying sales. But this is where it landed. So I figured we'd start with this. Now, I had asked it to prioritize these things. I'm not quite sure if it did. But this is what it came back with. So the very first recommendation that it had in terms of multiplying sales. I'll tell you specifically what it said first and then we can discuss it. So the first thing that it recommended is it said: 1. Define Your Target Audience. Clearly identify your ideal customers and understand their needs, preferences, and pain points. So, that's how it started. What do you think of that take? Jay: It sounds very, very traditional, very typical, common knowledge. The first thing that I learned in a sales class years ago, identifying your target audience. But I feel like that's so basic, and when you talk about multiplying sales, I tend to think that's more about taking the existing clientele and getting them to spend more. That's what I think about. David: I tend to think that way as well, but I thought it's a pretty good jumping off point because whether your target audience means your existing clients and the new clients that you want to go after, I think it makes a whole lot of sense to lead with, determining who it is that you're going to be going after. I relate a lot of this to what we do in our Total Market Domination course. One of the very first things we do in our course is we have a three level system of targeting. So what AI is recommending here in sort of a general sense, in terms of defining your target market, is something that we really dive into pretty heavily with our clients. Because without that targeting up front, if you don't know exactly who it is that you're going after, who your ideal client is, the likelihood of bringing an ideal client through the door is Is generally slim to none. Jay: Yeah. And you know, we've talked a lot about this in the past that knowing who your target audience is,

An honest conversation about the journey through fatherhood, balancing a career, and navigating the emotions that come up throughout the process. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:The history of Feel Good Fatherhood.Navigating the new career of being a parent.The process of going back to zero.Why Feel Good Fatherhood exists.The value of men recognizing what is happening on the inside and communicating it. Episode References/Links:Jay Twining WebsiteFollow Jay on LinkedInFeel Good FatherhoodGuest Bio:A game designer for 10 years but something was missing. Jay is striving to be a devoted father, chasing his career in branding, and opening the conversation about fatherhood on his podcast Feel Good Fatherhood.   If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Get your 15% discount for Toe Sox – use coupon code LESLEY15Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyBe in the know with all the workshops at OPCBe a part of Lesley's Pilates MentorshipResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript: Lesley Logan 0:00  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Hey, hey, hey, all right, I have an amazing episode for you. This is definitely umm, it's, it's, I'm just so excited. First of all, we have a surprise guest and a surprise. So we have the guest, who's Jay Twining, and I'm so excited. He is one of our strategists that helps us work on our business. So we know him very well. We know how he is when it comes to like working on your business, growing, noodling, and getting deep dive in there. And what I loved is learning so much about him and how he got to where he is. I hope that what you discover as you're learning from this is that we all have a journey. And too often because of perfectionism, overachiever ism, we discount ourselves from being qualified to do certain things. And because Jay did not, as you'll hear in the story, he actually put himself in spaces that really helped get him to exactly where he is today. And then also led him to the ability to do something that he dreamed about many, many, many years ago. So dreams take time. And this interview has a really lovely storyline for you to see not only yourself and the journey, but also for those of you who have men in your lives or a male listener to this. I think you'll really enjoy what he's working on right now. Have an amazing time listening to Jay Twinning. Hello Be It babes, okay. I'm so excited. We actually have a wonderful, amazing guest here and also Brad here, who the wonderful, amazing guest is and he changed his plans, y'all. He was gonna go for an afternoon walk. I'm just, I'm pretty sure... (Brad: I'm here today), I'm pretty sure that was (...). And he was gonna take from someone else.Brad Crowell 0:25  It was Dai Manuel (Lelsley: yeah), I was gonna do my 30. Lesley Logan 0:28  Yeah. And he's doing the self development part first. Lesson's called that... (Brad: that's what we're doing). So the reason why Brad is here is because we've an amazing man, who we've come to know for more than a year now, maybe longer. His name is Jay Twining. And he is actually, we go, he's really close to us, because he works with us on our business every single month. So, Jay, will you tell everyone who you are and what you're rockin out right now?Jay Twining 0:51  Absolutely. So, I am a resident brand strategist for Brand Builders Group. And so I get to, I have the pleasure, I have the privilege of working with folks just like these two building their brand. But also, what I do is I have a well, I do Feel Good Fatherhood. And so that's a show. And I just like working with dads and having conversations about what they're about. And that really, really kind of lights me up.Lesley Logan 1:15  So I love this because I think a lot of people don't end up with a coach who's also a client of some kind, like actually doing the thing that they coach on. And so I actually really appreciate it because you, with Feel Good Fatherhood, you're coming at everything that we're doing from the same place like you know how much time and energy an episode like this takes, like, I think our listeners might be like, Oh, this is like a 30 minute episode or however long it is. And let me just tell you the amount of hours pre and after to get it is not 30 isn't even double 30 minutes. So what made you want to get started with Feel Good Fatherhood? I guess we can almost start there because that's kind of like why you'd be even interested in coaching people on this on on the journey you're going.Brad Crowell 1:55  Yeah, which came first here, chicken or the egg?Jay Twining 1:58  Got it. We'll do Feel Good Father first. So this is this is great. Brad Crowell 2:00  I mean, did you start Feel Good Fatherhood prior to becoming a BBG Coach? Jay Twining 2:06  Oh, no, this was afterwards... (Brad: Okay). However, the, I would say the genesis of the idea was long time ago. And so when I was making games, so I was a game designer for about 10 years. Living the life I was in actually is in San Diego, in, you guys, neck of the woods. And I went to, I think the first thing we got to do was like preface, what it's like any industry and so lots of hours, overtime crunch is kind of common knowledge. Not that different from being a business owner. ot that different from being a say in Hollywood, something like that. So lots of hours is the normal cadence. So I woke up one day, and it was a normal day, I left for work at a normal time, and my daughter wasn't awake. And then I went for my standard eight hours eight and a bit. And I came home a regular day came home at a regular time. And she was asleep by time I came home. And the thing I did was I walked upstairs, I woke her up to sing her lullaby. And while I was sitting there doing this, when I came back down, I had this inner turmoil. So I just had this moment where the things that I'm doing in my life, the way that I've set up my day to day, they aren't really aligned with number one who I learned later on who I am, like my new identity, but also with what I'm doing. And so while I was doing my dream work, and while I was really activated and fulfilled, and while I loved everything I was doing creating games, and providing entertainment for people all over the world. It wasn't filling my cup anymore.Brad Crowell 3:41  And presumably that was because of your daughter.Jay Twining 3:43  Yes, because of my daughter, and my wife and my family and...Lesley Logan 3:49  Listening to guys, let's make sure that the wife (...)Brad Crowell 3:50  100% percent.Jay Twining 3:53  And it took me a while like I kind of had the niggling sense. Like I had the sense somewhere in my body, like it was showing up in my body and lots of things were going on. It took me about four years to figure out, it's time for me to leave. It's time for me to pursue something new. All this kind of happened, that's sort of the preface that's the scene. What was really happening was that my daughter was born about three weeks after a major studio that I was working at closed and it was very public. Incredibly stressful. It was 38 Studios. So for the listeners if they want to go down the rabbit hole of public business and private business, it's it's pretty crazy what happened. And we went through that and so full company closure, no no health insurance, no nothing, baby born in Providence, Rhode Island, tons of stress. Within a month got had the next position moved across the country. So uprooted from all my support group, uprooted from all my mentors, uprooted from all my friends, like everything. My, my parents were living abroad in Singapore. So they were 12 hours off. So I had, I didn't have that support network anymore. And then, and then the, and then her parents were on the other side of the country. So it was like a six to eight hour, it was a full day trip just to come visit us. Yeah. So you can imagine, like, at this time and a family, you need local support. Lesley Logan 5:20  Yeah. Well, I also just want to observation I had, because first of all, you're like, it took four years. And I think some people are like, wow, it took four years, if you had this moment, like four years is actually a short amount of time when it comes to like, transforming the life that you want to, like, go from like, this career to like, how do I actually change that. And also, it makes so much sense because if you like, lost everything in a moment that like, felt like so much certainty. You're so new in this job, with a new child and everything, like the last thing you want to do is go let me just like fly by the seat of my pants. It's a moment. So I think it actually makes more sense. Why it took four years. Brad Crowell 5:57  Yeah, I think that's what that's kind of the experience I had too because for easily two years, you know, you and I would like I need to get out of my job. I need to get out of my job. How am I gonna get out my job? What would, what am I going to do? What could I do instead? Right? And then after, like, finally leaving, I had another two years of like, still trying to figure out how am I going to build my business? How am I going to make money? How am I gonna do this? Until we settled on what today might look like. So yeah, that seems far for the course. Jay Twining 6:30  Awesome. And all very true. And so when we so then we have all this stuff going on. And then finally in the last, here's the last straw. The same year my daughter was born, in May, my biological father died in December.Lesley Logan 6:46  Oh, geez. So like, so now we just layered it. Jay Twining 6:50  So everything's like happening. Oh, and by the end, and then on top of it, in November, because we were estranged. And this is the real this is kind of the real genesis of Feel Good Fatherhood we were estranged 15 years, no relationship with my biological father, my sister and I were looking for him, like public records, everything just like where are you? Do you? Are you alive? like standard questions like that. And so all this kind of stuff is happening on and then a couple years later, when things finally slow down and stuff, like it just kind of hits me I was like, I never wanted to be a father to my kids, like my biological father was to me. Oh, and that, and that story of the estranged parent, you know, like, I love data. So two out of five kids in the United States are in fatherless households, 40%, there's a reasonable odds that every person that you meet grew up grew up in a fatherless households, that's a reasonable number 40%, that's almost the majority. So when I when I kind of combined all these different pieces of data, the way that I kind of find success in my life, is that I kind of do two or three core things, right, I kind of like to talk and engage in a community to kind of figure out what's going on, that was gone. I like to find people that are ahead of me on the journey or walking with me on the journey, and hanging out there. And that didn't really exist. There were no new fathers around me. It was completely outside of that, that group. And then the other one, in the other place where I leaned a lot on is family. And that was, that was out. Right? So because I mean, they were a phone call away. But it's it's kind of different in the face to face interaction being in it is different than that kind of interaction. And so now we're, so now that we understand the history, Feel Good Fatherhood exists, because there were two things were going through my mind. Number one, I don't think my experience is that weird for new dads. I think it's very common. And I think it's very common today. And I think more fathers today go through what I went through than not... (Lesley: right). And number two, I think that sucks. I think that's the worst state. And I think that, in general, not only for fathers, but for parents, the whole scope, that we don't do a really good job of, of a society of gathering around people that are intricately valuable in the world. Like being good parents just being present, just being a present parent, like not even the qualifier to being a good parent, because that in and of itself is a journey. Just being in the room. And raising is is that's already hard. You've added another career on top of everything else you're doing.Lesley Logan 9:38  Yeah, I think we most of our listeners are, I would say are a parent in some stage of that. And it is, first of all the pressure on parents to like, it's like they're like, here's your child and all the pressure in the world, on your shoulders now. And if you didn't have and I would say you If you said 40% are fatherless homes, then I would say all those moms that they were those 40% they had moms who were like overworked, underpaid, and like, under like prioritize in their life. So so many people don't have an example role model of anything that shows that like, this can also be something that I love. It could be something that could be that could feel good to go with your title also, like it's possible. And if you but if you don't have a support system, which if you don't have a parent around, that's if you're down one, so Oh, that's a lot that's...Brad Crowell 10:34  Also... (Lesley: articulate) well, also I think there was you kind of slipped it in there. But you said, this new career of being a parent, you know, it is easily as comparable or even more so than a career move, like a job move. Yeah.Jay Twining 10:51  Yes, and I think and when I, when I think about and I explain it that way, I think about any sort of hard skill that you need, like, we're all kind of business owners here, right? So there are probably off the top of our heads, probably 25 different things that you need to basically master to have a successful business. It's the same number for raising kids, like, so you're so on top of everything else is going on, we're just we're just trying to figure out, let alone the physical care of have a new have a new baby, you're learning new interaction styles with your spouse, they have all the same fatigue and frustration you do. So like when you think about the powder keg of the house, it's like it's so easy. And this is why you know...Brad Crowell 11:41  For those that are watching YouTube, that was the mind blown emotion. Lesley Logan 11:44  Yes, but also my brain went like if these walls could talk, it's almost like there needs to be a show about house walls. It's like, oh, oh, this this and we are going going back now they have a kid. So here, watch this. Watch this. Go. Let's see how this goes.Jay Twining 12:00  I had this funny way back in the you know, Adult Swim the cartoon. I had this weird idea when I was a kid of having a cartoon of a bunch of wheels. Talking about the conversations happening in the car... (Lesley: Yes. Yeah). There they go again. Oh, Jerry's lost again. Not asking for help. Here we go. Oh, Margaret's doing that, like just this crazy stuff. And that would be really hilarious. So...Lesley Logan 12:27  Oh, my gosh. Also, like further. It could be based in LA it's like the same cars on the same freeway. The same wheels are seeing each other. Oh, gosh. You (...)Jay Twining 12:35  How you doing? How you doing? Oh, yup, I saw you yesterday. It's good. All right, let's let's move 10 feet. Okay!Lesley Logan 12:42  I digress. Um, so. So Jay, it took you four years to like, go from this inner turmoil to like making a shift. Was the shift like, did you go part time? Did you just like leap and the net will appear? Like, what was the next? What was that next step that you could take after you had this feeling?Jay Twining 12:59  Let's just let's just kind of layer on stuff. So at this time, I was still trying to make the career work. And when I actually made the decision, I was living and working in Cambridge, Massachusetts, while my family was in Albany, New York. And so Friday night, I would leave work, jump on the, jump on the freeway drive back three, three hours, pull in at 10 o'clock. My young, four year old daughter would be awake at 10 on a Friday night, which is fine. So, So we'd have....Lesley Logan 13:28  What are rules? What is a bedtime anyway?Jay Twining 13:30  Exactly. So so we were just cramming in, like two days, because roughly right around Sunday, like I'd be driving back ballin, like there were so many times I drove back along the freeway just crying because I'm like, What the hell am I doing with my life? And so all this stuff happened. And the real pivotal moment for me was when I finally decided that it was time to really make the switch, because all this had been brewing to this point was I misunderstood, I was having a discussion with my wife about coming and checking things out in Boston for moving there. And then she said, she said, I don't even remember what she said. But what I heard was, I'm not moving to come to you, like in a in like a separation style. And so I had a mental break at work. I like, I stopped moving for about 30 minutes, because I couldn't process what was happening. And then like a bunch of my co workers came to me and they were like, are you okay? Do you need to go home, like what's going on? So I came out of it. And I was like, and I, you know, because I was relatively young was younger than I am now. And I kind of worked for a bit but then I went home and just kind of processed everything and I was like this, isn't it, like this isn't working. This is ended and what was happening was not going to be different from what my life would look like. If I stayed in that career, if I stayed making games... (Lesley: Hmm). So, so this happened and then, you know, six to nine months later there was downsizing. So I was out of work anyways. But by that time happened, I was actively looking for the next position I was actively...Brad Crowell 15:11  Also, I feel like mentally, you must have been, you know, not necessarily welcoming it, but but ready to be making that change. And... (Jay: yeah) when, you know, when that happened at the job, it was like, kind of in lockstep with you. Jay Twining 15:26  So it was it was kind of weird. I remember my boss, when we had the conversation, he was like, Oh, you're handling this very well. You're just being like, like yeah...Brad Crowell 15:36  Like, (...) out the door most of the year.Lesley Logan 15:38  Yeah (...) Oh, so when I was asked to quit, I was like, oh, do you want me to do so today? would today be a good day? Like, because we don't want to fire you. And I'm like, eell, you fire me and I'd be over today. So do you want me to quit today? Like, do you want a two weeks notice? They're like, are you okay? I'm like, um, I guess I've been planning this for a while.Jay Twining 15:57  So like, the only thing I can say to those to those guys, is that it wasn't you and I wasn't at my best. And so if there's anything going on there. So and then it started a whole bunch of years of just not making a lot of money. Trying to hit it because I had you know, I was at you know, I was a solid 10 years in great salary, great career being actively recruited by like Microsoft, and places over in San Francisco, like, just constantly having these discussions about going to these different places and these bigger studios and me just having to say, nope, I'm retiring this part of my life. So all this kind of stuff happened. And I had been thinking about being a game developer. So I was like, I ended up being a game designer, game system designer is my specialty, since I was like, eight. So when all this happened, and then when we when we really take a look at it, my entire identity, like was completely wrapped up in this career. I had almost nothing to back up on or fall back on... (Lesley: Yeah). And so and when we take the moving from place to place and upgrading social support, it was like I didn't, like, I had nothing. Brad Crowell 17:09  You didn't feel like I had a community either... (Jay: I had nothing) (Lesley: I guess)... (Jay: It was crazy).Lesley Logan 17:13  Yeah. We're how old it just so I'm perspective time, like how old is their daughter when this happened?Jay Twining 17:21  So we left? I started working at the Cambridge place when she was four, it would have been around six. She was six when this was all happening. And so she's turning 11. Now, so this would been four or five years ago... (Lelsley: Wow. Yeah). So basically, she was six, I spent about a year and a half, a year, just figuring stuff out, I had to, I'd have developed a whole new set of skills. And for everybody that's out there that the number one skill you need when you're starting a business or trying something new is sales, and I had no sales experience.Brad Crowell 17:56  So did you work at a restaurant?Jay Twining 17:59  Well, I was a busboy at a restaurant, so I was kind of doing that stuff. But I didn't have any that experience. And so I had I deep dived into sales, I worked at a I was an internal salesperson for a direct sales company selling multi $1,000 products. And that was a really steep uphill climb and started to get that thing going.Lesley Logan 18:20  Way to like throw yourself in, like, let's just dive into the hardest thing.Brad Crowell 18:23  I literally would have just gone into food and been a server. Yeah. That doesn't take quite as much as being assistant salesperson.Jay Twining 18:32  Something that I really had to get over. And I still get over a lot. It's just I had a really, I still kind of do like, kind of arrogant sometimes, like in my in here in my head. I have a big ego. And at that time of my life, I was like, Well, I'm used to this kind of lifestyle. So when I come in, I gotta make this big projects... (Brad: Yeah) you know, game designers we have a chip right here on the shoulder. Lesley Logan 18:58  Yes, I've been to several game designer, Christmas parties, actually. So yes.Jay Twining 19:05  Very confident and very self assured. We've got the plan, we have the vision and our whole, like a huge part of our job is enrolling everybody in what we're doing and getting the vision going. And so it was really hard to start back at zero. Yeah, so so it kind of took time and the one good thing that I had going for me is that I guess I still have this I don't have a if I was internally saying this, it's I have a low sense of self awareness in that I don't always when I see something I'm like sure I'll just go try that. Like why not? And so there was this open sales position for, it's kind of embarrassing when I say it now, but I opened sales position for a Sotheby's real estate agent. I didn't need I didn't know what Sotheby's was.Lesley Logan 19:56  Oh yeah, there's zero imposter, you have none. You're like I can do that... (Jay: And I did)Brad Crowell 20:01   I might as well be a salesperson for them.Lesley Logan 20:04  Exactly. Listening, you know what you should try that try.Brad Crowell 20:08  If you don't know, Sotheby's is like the biggest in the world, and that's probably a very, very competitive role.Jay Twining 20:15  Luxury. So it's luxury second homes. Average listing price is 750 plus. The people that have these these kinds of homes, like, this is their second, third and fourth home... (Brad: Right). So the average clientele, their multi millionaires if not billionaires, and they, they have homes and places we like to travel to hotels to vacation.Lesley Logan 20:38  Yeah. Yeah. (...) I've been there... (Brad: Let's do it) (..) Did you get the job?Jay Twining 20:47  Well, I got I got an interview. And, and, and we talked about maybe doing the work, but where it ended up, so but my skill set at that point was actually an information businesses, so information products, courses, memberships, and online sales. And so instead of, he didn't really bring me in for the real estate agent, he was like, Would you be interested in helping me build this business was sure. (Lesley: that's so cool) And, uh, sure. And so we worked together for a while, and it was, it was a wild ride. And we we actually built everything and had some great success with it. And then, and then that led me to what I'm currently doing, which is BBG... (Lesley: So that is so crazy, right?)Brad Crowell 21:31  I love that the interview had nothing to do with the job.Lesley Logan 21:34  But also, like, I think, I think, what I, I'm loving this, and I know what our listeners would be doing, they would never have applied for that job. They would never have and I'm not saying go out and apply for jobs, you know, isn't doing but like, they I actually think a lot of like, someone listeners to this might not even apply for the job that they're qualified for. Because they'll talk themselves out of it. And so it's like a perfectionism. So yeah, like, we could just like all gleam not not too much just enough to like, actually go for the thing that we are able to do that we think, Oh, I'm not ready. If you've ever said I'm not ready for that yet. When that when I do this, then I'll be ready. And it's like, if you're waiting for someone to deem you ready to apply for a job or take the next step. No one's doing that. No one is coming around and randomly going, and now you should go for that interview. Like now you're ready, you know, and if they are, I would like you to look around, you may be in a cult. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Maybe not that serious, but something close. So. So that allows you to take all your expertise, and like really help all these people who are putting courses together, they're going on speaking, they're doing these things. And then it sounds like it gave you the time to actually sit back and build your thing from the ground up.Jay Twining 22:51  I think the one the number one best thing about this direct sales company that I was working for, and being a salesperson is the sheer amount of personal development that was emphasized. There. There were like if you're not reading and not currently working on you, your mindset, the way you speak on some sort of skill, soft skill, hard skill. Like you don't belong here. That was a language, it's like you just don't belong here. And so I would, I would read Robert Kiyosaki, Rich Dad Poor Dad, Cashflow Quadrant, so I was reading Harv Eker secrets, The Millionaire Mind, I was reading like I was reading constantly sales, personal development, sales, personal development. Yeah, just constant like constant courses, constant webinars, always personal development grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, learn as much as you can. And it led to some, like I met some crazy people, like I met a dude. He had a business and his goal was to own real estate in every single state. He was at 20 states. By the time I spoke to him, and like by time I stopped speaking to him, he was at 25. Like he just and that was within a couple of months, like you just hungry and going after it. And it really kind of let me know that the limit of what I could accomplish was based on the amount of work I was going to put in. And so while yes, I didn't have any impostor syndrome, I didn't have any internal self awareness about qualifying for a position. I knew I could work to make it happen. And so there was never in my mind a there has never been a mind. Oh, I don't have that line item. So I'm gonna go do this other thing. Because so I was in video games for 10 years. When I got that position. I was a data analyst. I went to school for French language. So I learned I know a little bit about French culture, France, French art, like fine art in France. And I took computer science as a minor, because I had always kind of been making games in my off time, and that was one of the big pushes. But getting into the industry. Was it this is a common joke about job openings, right? So they'll list a bunch of like skills that you have and say, like 10 years required for an entry level position. Right? So an entry level position for a thing requires 10 years of experience in a bunch of doohickeys. And it's like, it's absurd. And I remember I looked at this entry level position at Vicarious Visions. And it's really funny. I'll continue this one later on. But so I went there, and I was like, oh, requires like one to three years of game development experience. And then, but when I looked at all the rest of it, I was like, I have all the rest. And I sent a resume to it on a lark, because it was a studio I hadn't really heard of. And it was in a place. I was like, Albany, New York. Where's that? So I had no no frame, you know, because I was young and didn't really have a lot of experience in it. But when I had the phone screen, so I was in between. So this is crazy. I was shooting a safety video, a bilingual safety video, English, French, for the company I was working for. So I was on set in front of the camera doing doing this work. The hiring manager called me. And I said, Look, I'm back on set in like 25 minutes. And he's like what? I said, I said, I didn't really know you were going to call, I appreciate it. But I've got about 20 minutes, what can we talk about? And so in that conversation, I said, yes, I had worked in building my own games, I had been playfully, playfully coding since I was about my daughter's age. So about eight. My first language was basic, and I made a little text adventure. And so I had been kind of doing this work. And then by the time I got there...Lesley Logan 26:44  You actually overqualified for the job really, is what we're finding out.Jay Twining 26:47  Okay, that's a little bit of that.Lesley Logan 26:50  I'm so sorry. But I just, I just have to interrupt because it's like, what you're what I'm hearing you say is like, we're people are like, going to have to have they have this, I have to have these things. And you brought up like 10 years of this for entry level job. It's like, well, how do you get the entry? How do you get the 10 years experience before, so I love that you're like, I have all the rest of this stuff. So I'm gonna go for it. Because I think people, the perfectionist be like, Oh, I don't have those gotta go take another training and come back later miss out on the opportunity to really like show well, I have these other experiences that would help with this job.Jay Twining 27:25  If, if I was thinking about life as a video game, most video games have sort of some sort of technology limit to a level or a skill. So you have a skill in jumping, and the jumping is like nine out of 100. But that's an artificial limit for the context of the game. In real life, there's no upper limit to a skill.Brad Crowell 27:47  I think... (Lesley: That is amazing) to take that and so I, I had a really hard time understanding what I could do for whom were outside of my music skills. So I totally understand what you mean, you're like, on set, but you applied to a gaming company. And, and it's like, you know, I never even saw myself, like, the benefit that I could add to any company, any company, it actually did not matter if they were doing, you know, skin, hair care or alcohol. And like, literally, that's how I was able to take my operational mind and make it benefit either of those two companies that I did end up working for, but never what I've actually been like, I should go work at an alcohol company, right? You know, I have no context to understand how my skills could be beneficial.Jay Twining 28:45  If you're in the world of the W two, you know, the reason why I brought up that sales competency when you're doing something new, is because most the time you have to articulate why these people can make use of your skills. It I always find it the funniest thing ever, because this video game background has cost me clients, you know, in this personal branding world, because they're kind of like, oh, you made games, you must not take anything seriously. And I'm like...Brad Crowell 29:11  Oh, that's so funny.Lesley Logan 29:12  Why don't we well, you know what, that's a judgmental person. Goodbye. Not my ICA.Jay Twining 29:19  And it's it's okay. Right? Like, that's it? It's no, I really believe people are they're gonna they're doing the best they can with the information that they have and who they are to this point. And yeah, I think you know, some some people. I'll just, I'll just hit this point. Let's just talk about gaming for a minute. 60% of the US population plays games.Lesley Logan 29:37  I play a game, least an hour a day, probably two. Jay Twining 29:40  If asking somebody if they play a game, or if they're a gamer is equivalent to asking somebody if they watch movies.Brad Crowell 29:46  Right. Yeah.Jay Twining 29:48  It's ubiquitous, like gaming is here to stay and it's a part of our life. You may or may not choose to do something with it, but everybody plays. And you know, I think that when we really thinking about what would be the core competencies, competencies of like, why I've been able to do the things that I've been doing is because something that human beings are innately good at, is discovery and learning. We are learning machines, we learn, like the models of the womb, we learn everything, everything you do everything you experience, you reflect, you think on. And you can either apply that knowledge or not that's doing this, like wisdom versus experience. Right? So, wisdom being you can learn from other people's experience experience being you have to personally do it. And hopefully, in your life, you don't have to go through the hard path every single time. Hopefully, at some point, you can learn from other people's experience. And that sales vision and all that personal development was when I really started to unlock that, because to that point, before that position, I had been trying to do so much on my own, and figuring everything out the hard way.Brad Crowell 30:58  Yeah, yeah. That's like, and also I feel like, I bet that's when, personally a chip that was on your shoulder, you are starting to let that go. Because that, gotta figure it out myself hard way. That's a lot of ego. Right? And we ended up trapping ourselves in I gotta do it the hard way. Because we're not open... (Lesley: Yeah. Yeah) to other people's wisdom. Jay Twining 31:27  It's so there was certainly that it's, we call it the in the industry, we call the not invented here syndrome... (Brad: not invented here) not invented here. Like let's reinvent the wheel, maybe. Or we can save time by learning from something else or some other system or getting the research. But so then again, like, so I was having these lessons. And then so fatherhood, right I was like, Oh, well why can I learn from other fathers? And so right around also all this time so like I'm figuring out career stuff. And what I'm just kind of noticing as well like as I'm reading and finding things is that there aren't really many places for fathers because at that time so four or five years ago we started to see the boss mama and the you know the crush it I think the big thing was like the helicopter parent, there was a supermom on the cover of Time. Yep, there was all this other kind of stuff. Lesley Logan 32:23  Now there's like all those are parents but none of these are any parent anybody actually wants to be like nobody. Can you imagine like actually being supermom, like, that sounds like a lot of work sounds like a lot of running and speeding and changing of clothes, and handling and controlling everything as opposed to like, because like a superhero is alone. It's not like the Avengers moms, you know. So anyways, I'm just this is what I'm thinking about. And then the helicopter parents, it's exhausting.Jay Twining 32:51  One of my you said something that I think is really important and critical to why Feel Good Fatherhood exists. It's that I learned from a game developer that I really, really loved. And when he was talking about and working on Star Wars, The Old Republic, it's one of the only star wars of the most it's out there. And he said, it's totally fine for you to be alone. We love Batman's. We love the lone people. It's not okay for you to feel lonely. So Feel Good Fatherhood exists, because it's totally fine for you, as a parent or a father to be alone. It is not okay for you to be lonely. So those conversations part of it is and I really believe this today about leaving leading from the front. And so I don't have I don't have that self awareness or anything like that going on. So I'm like, let's just talk about fatherhood. Like, I don't, you know, I try it. I don't have this whole like, there's sometimes I have like star power where like, oh, like, I really want to do something good. I want to have a really great interview with a person. But most the time, if we're all fathers, like that's something that bring it bridges the gap for us. That's something that pull like it pulls us together, we have a shared common experience. And what I think is missing in our modern context, not just for fathers, but for everybody is that we don't lean on each other enough. And the other way to say that is that we're not open to be leaned on by other people enough. So I want to have the feelgood fatherhood conversation to show other fathers, they can have conversations about fatherhood. I want to have this conversation so that people that are interested in fathers and fatherhood can listen to see what other fathers are talking about and what their pressures are and what they're doing. And finally, I really just want to provide I try and keep my personality the same and the questions the same because if all you've got in your life is a capability of asking five different questions, with the right five questions, you can build a relationship with anybody, why not?Lesley Logan 35:02  So you're, you're making me think of our recent guests we had, the fitness guys. He also brought in Star Wars as an example. So we'll have to connect you guys. For sure they were they're very similar. It's like, when you when, like it makes me think of like, for moms, we have done so much to support that we need to do more. So please don't throw anything at me ladies I get we got to do more. But a lot of there's a lot of like text chains groups, like a mom can literally like text 500 people and go What's this? And get but like, either it either I'm not aware of it, because it's not in my world. And none of my friends are fathers, I'm friends with the moms or it's just really not something that is actually been created where it's like, I have not, I don't we saw our friends who just had a kid. Did we ask Chris how he's doing? No, I think we were like, Laura, how are you doing? Do you have help? Like, I don't think, we were worried about Chris? I hope you're good. They think that thing is that this is a very needed.Brad Crowell 36:03  Yeah. It's like a societal assumption.Jay Twining 36:05  It's there. It's so funny, because the pressures on men today are what are some of the pressures, the stoic man is not appreciated? So the and what is the stoic man mean? And where do we see that we see the stoic man and TV shows or movies, these are our heroes. So these are the people that accept the wall. These are the men that accept what's happening, and just keep going. That's, that's the hero idea. Like, oh, that kind of happened. All right, let's missions ahead, keep going. Right? And we see this a lot in our context of like military movies, you know, like Black Hawk Down is, I don't know, I think I have some context around why I like some of these military movies mostly just reminds me of how grateful I am that I wasn't a soldier, and that I live in a very safe world. It reminds me of that context, but from the stoic man, like that idea is kind of being diminished in the role of Hollywood, and maybe that's kind of changed, especially since if we think about the Marvel context. You know, Tony Stark, right, Tony Stark, Captain America have this, like, look, we just got to pursue the thing, like, we're gonna go solve the problem and pursue the thing. And, and that's kind of being made fun of. But what's really crazy about this, in the cultural context is that ladies, if you'll allow me this, tell me, you wanted your man to freak out every time something happened. Tell me the last time you wanted your man to freak out when something happens, to have an over exuberance of emotion when things happen constantly, that emotional self control is something that is attractive in us and something that's expected of us as men, and fathers in particular. So and that doesn't mean 100%. And it's not saying turn off the emotion. In fact, part of Feel Good Fatherhood is really being in touch with what's happening on the inside, knowing that you have an emotion and knowing how to handle that. But the other side as well is kind of knowing and learning in a social context. When is it appropriate for me to face and open up and share my problem, my vulnerability? And then when is it not appropriate? Let's suppose it you're on the side of the road, right? And your tires are blown out. Like, who's going to pull over if the dude is in a, an angry fit? Right? Like, let's suppose he's in an angry fit, because he's mad because the tires blew up. Nobody's gonna pull over. Brad Crowell 38:50  And he's like kicking the side of the tires... (Jay: kicking the side of tires) like bam bam!Jay Twining 38:55  That craziness. Even then the cops the cops that show up the police officers that show up that are trying to help they're gonna be like, dude, calm down. Right, then he's gonna end up becoming a threat... (Brad: Yeah) so in the in the conversation of our lives, and why am I why am I focusing on anger? Because anger for men is a fuel source, and it is one of our default emotions. It's one of our few accepted emotions, okay? Go we are on a crazy track. But what's really important is that for men that we understand how to how to communicate what's going on inside, and that we're also in tune with what's happening inside. So none of none of please take nothing of what I said as the emotions don't happen. I have crazy emotions constantly in my life. Like it just it just kind of happens. But it's not always appropriate for me to express them super exuberantly. Like number one, I'm not an actor, so I don't get paid to do that. There's that piece but number two, it's not always meaningful. Like it's not always it's not always going to meaningfully add to the situation and it's not expected subconsciously of me. And then finally...Brad Crowell 40:01  I'm pretty sure that my computer fixes itself every time I yell at it. So, you know, I don't actually know what you're talking about.Lesley Logan 40:08  This is why we have separate offices, everyone, there's a reason.Brad Crowell 40:13  It just magically works. Jay Twining 40:14  The other side of it too comes from in a lot of so in video games, I was in kind of a male dominated world. And there's a certain context where it's allowed and not that doesn't translate everywhere. So, Simon Sinek, loves telling the story about how he was on I think he was in Afghanistan, he was on base. And he was really surprised that the soldiers were allowed and given space when they had an emotional situation. So when we're talking about stoic guy, we're on mission, we have to kind of do the thing. We have those people in real life. Right? There are police officers, firemen, fire women, police women, etc, etc, etc. All the way up to frontline hospital, hospital workers, right? In that context, what I learned from Simon Sinek was that he was walking the base from a mission and a soldier just broke down. And he was allowed the space to experience the emotion... (Lesley: That's amazing actually), let's let's suppose that you're a young boy, in elementary school, and you have any emotional outbursts? What's the first thing the teacher does?... (Brad: They'll yell at you) yell at you, discipline you, stop it, be quiet and sit down... (Brad: Yeah) Okay, so that's that piece. All right? So now we're in a professional context. Has anybody or any of the listeners you ever had a angry boss or a sad boss?Lesley Logan 41:48   Oh, I haven't, no, I've always had like, they were lovely people, or they were horrible people that you did not want have your emotions around.Jay Twining 41:56  Right? So and this is just this world, right? This is just this world where when, when kind of like when guys revalue and other guys, depending on your emotional maturity. That's the key point here. As an individual, depending on your emotional maturity, you're in tune with your own emotions and your ability to perceive and react or have empathy is the other word, empathy for other people. That's going to determine how well you are willing to accept an emotional outburst. So let's bring it back. Right? let's bring it back into fatherhood. So I had to learn this. Because what I know is that most young fathers haven't figured out anger yet. There's a lot of anecdotal stories.Brad Crowell 42:41  I couldn't even imagine being in my early 20s. Like, I don't know, it took me multiple relationships, to identify that anger was actually a big problem in my in my, you know, yeah, in me.Lesley Logan 42:57  I think and like, gosh, we'll have to just have this conversation with bringing more people on this whole thing, because what I'm also like, of course, I'm expert, like my own experience. I actually think that like, for women, you're not gonna have emotions at work, right? For men, you're not gonna have emotions outside of where you should have any emotions. So in fact, in society, we're actually not teaching anyone how to go have an emotional moment. Until it sounds like they're in the military. They just bombed a bunch of people. So it just sounds like we're waiting till it so fucking extreme that we have to have a moment so... Oh my gosh, I think, I think it's really amazing what you're doing and we'll have to talk more but obviously people can can work with you on this, especially our listeners, you will have men in your life that that made this may absolutely place we're gonna take a quick break, and we're going to find out where people can work with Feel Good Fatherhood. Alright, Jay, where can people find you follow you work with you?Jay Twining 43:50  Got it. My channels on YouTube right now. So it's youtube.com/atfeelgoodfatherhood. And there'll be a bunch of you'll know it's the channel because there's a nice blue brick background. In addition to really liking to French Fine Arts. I am a sucker for a turn of the century jazz and a Humphrey Bogart movies Casablanca. I used to do Lindy Hop and Bell bow so swing dancing. That's how I met my wife. And so I've got this whole jazz and music background. I know Brad You and I are going to talk about this at some point. So that's the channel. That's where that's the easiest way and then if you want to engage in a conversation with me this the next best place is LinkedIn. Shoot me a DM let me know how you found me and I'd love to just talk with you and see if there's any way I can support you or maybe the other way around. Who knows?Brad Crowell 44:43  You also got your pod right?Jay Twining 44:45  Yeah, that's where the pod is, Feel Good Fatherhood is right there at YouTube. Yeah, that's where you can find tha, that will be out soon. Maybe but maybe by the airing of this episode. I have some some SEO work to make the to make it on all other podcasts platforms. Lesley Logan 45:00  I love it. This is awesome. Well, before we let you go, real quick, bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted steps people can take to Be It Till They See It. What do you have for us?Jay Twining 45:09  Got it! All right. So three core steps, three core steps to b2c, it will use the conversation of the video game thing. So I had no video game experience. What did I do? Success leaves clues. I did a whole bunch of research. I did, I read books on it. I found blogs, I found ways of being. An old mentor of mine, Charles Ms. Rocky, he said, If you want to be an investor, you have to do things that investors do. Instead, what do investors do? They read financial reports every single day. That's what Warren Buffett does. So he said, If you want to do a thing, do the work every day. So the first step is the research. The next step is that research by itself and knowledge isn't very valuable. You have to apply and practice. So if you want it like for instance, if you want to do investing, there's you can do historical trades, you can go you can find a way to go to historical trades to practice what you've been learning. If you want to make games, you go and make games, like there's so many tools out there today to do it. It's it's relatively straightforward. And then finally, and this is the most critical part is it while you're practicing and while you're doing it while you're doing anything, evaluate if you still like it.Brad Crowell 46:24  That is amazing.Lesley Logan 46:28  Oh my gosh, that one, rewind everyone, listen to that one again. It's so so important... (Brad: Yeah) Jay, you are a phenomenal person. Your journey is incredible. I think so many of us can learn from it and also any of the moms who are worried about their kid playing video games. It is not like being lazy, not taking life they're learning how computers work and they're learning different skills along the way. So you know you can monitor screen time I'm okay with that. But they're not going anywhere nor computer so I think they need to engage with them in some way. How are you gonna use these tips in your life? Let us know tag J, tag the Be It pod, let it, tell us how, what was the most important point to you, what resonate with you the most and until next time, Be It Till You See It!That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram.   I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network.  Brad Crowell 47:07  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Leslie Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 47:07  It is produced, edited by the Epic team at Disenyo.  Brad Crowell 47:07  Theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music, and our branding by designer and artist Gianfranco Cioffi.  Lesley Logan 47:07  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals and Ximena Velazquez for our transcriptions.  Brad Crowell 47:07  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all the content to our website. And finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Mi Gente!! Happy Monday/Feliz Lunes! Welcome back to Episode 4 of the "Funny Gals Talk" series with yours truly Michelle S Feat. Jay It's been a while and we apologize for the delay we been too ousside. On this Episode we talk about our immature asses keeping our jobs no matter what we do. You can tune into on Youtube cause I know how my visual baddies are. If you haven't done so already, make sure you subscribe to the It's Mi, Chelle Podcast Youtube Channel and click on that notification bell so you don't miss a thing

Very often, inferior competitors play the price card: Jay: I get that question. "Well, I talk to your competitor and they're less expensive than you are." Well, now I have to find a way to let them know, yeah, we are more expensive, but there's a reason. And it's because we're very good at what we do and we have certain guarantees that they don't, or whatever it is. David: Yeah. A pack of cigarettes is cheaper too, but that can also kill you. No, that would not be a good answer. But sometimes it's what we feel like saying... David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co-host, Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the idea of losing business to inferior competitors. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: It's good to be here, David, and this is one of the most frustrating things for me when I know that I have a better product, I have better customer service. I know this because I've heard complaints about my competitor and all of these things, but you lose it to them for whatever reason. Well, that can really ruin your day , and it can also affect your business. David: It really can. And I think just this idea and even the word inferior competitors, probably anyone in business who has competitors that you've run into has had this experience. And you're like, I can't believe they went with that person instead of us. You know that what you have is so much better and offers so much more and is going to transform the person in positive ways so much more than they will if they go the other way. And yet they go in that direction. It can be extremely frustrating. So when we think about this idea of how to avoid this, how to avoid losing business to inferior competitors, there are a number of different things that we can do. But I think it starts with recognizing, first of all, that they're out there. That there are a number of people out there who are not as good as we are. And then it's about, okay, how am I going to be able to communicate that to my prospects in a way that doesn't make me sound like I'm bitter, or make me sound like I'm frustrated? And that can be the challenge sometimes. Jay: Yeah, I agree. I have people regularly ask me, what's the difference between you and your competitor? And I find that you have to be very careful with this question. And the tactic that I've chosen is to say, here's the value that we can bring you. Here's what I know we can do. And I try and s teer it back or say, you know, I haven't worked with them directly, but let me tell you this is where we shine. And I know we're going to bring you success in this way because it's always been weird to me that somebody would believe what I say about my competitor. I'm the worst person to ask. It's like in politics when somebody runs an attack ad, why would you believe the guy who's, you know what I mean? It 's the worst person to ask, but we put so much faith and trust in it. David: Right. And I think, going exactly along that line, one of the things that we've tried to do when people come to us and they ask us about it, is we'll basically say to them, well, listen, anything I say is obviously going to be biased. Why don't I fill you in on some of what our customers have said about that topic? And then we've got videos and we've got audios, and we've got written testimonials of customers who have worked with us and we'll point them to that. And allow them to hear what other people just like them are saying about the products and services we offer. Sometimes there are situations where a customer will talk about a bad experience they had with one of our competitors and the reason they came to us, and so sometimes we'll share those stories as well. Say, well, listen, I can't tell you this personally. I've never personally dealt with this other company. But you know, we've had a number of customers who were dealing with them in the past, and here are the reasons they gave for switching over to us.

Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. The topic is Industrial AI. Our guest is Professor Jay Lee, the Ohio Eminent Scholar, the L.W. Scott Alter Chair Professor in Advanced Manufacturing, and the Founding Director of the Industrial AI Center at the University of Cincinnati (https://www.iaicenter.com/). In this conversation, we talk about how AI does many things but to be applicable; the industry needs it to work every time, which puts additional constraints on what can be done by when. If you liked this show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/). If you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 81: From Predictive to Diagnostic Manufacturing Augmentation (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/81). Augmented is a podcast for industry leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim (https://trondundheim.com/) and presented by Tulip (https://tulip.co/). Follow the podcast on Twitter (https://twitter.com/AugmentedPod) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/75424477/). Trond's Takeaway: Industrial AI is a breakthrough that will take a while to mature. It implies discipline, not just algorithms. In fact, it entails a systems architecture consisting of data, algorithm, platform, and operation. Transcript: TROND: Welcome to another episode of the Augmented Podcast. Augmented brings industrial conversations that matter, serving up the most relevant conversations on industrial tech. Our vision is a world where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is Industrial AI. Our guest is Professor Jay Lee, the Ohio Eminent Scholar, and the L.W. Scott Alter Chair Professor in Advanced Manufacturing, and the Founding Director of the Industrial AI Center at the University of Cincinnati. In this conversation, we talk about how AI does many things but to be applicable, industry needs it to work every time, which puts on additional constraints on what can be done by when. Augmented is a podcast for industrial leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim and presented by Tulip. Jay, it's a pleasure to have you here. How are you today? JAY: Good. Thank you for inviting me to have a good discussion about industrial AI. TROND: Yeah, I think it will be a good discussion. Look, Jay, you are such an accomplished person, both in terms of your academics and your industrial credentials. I wanted to quickly just go through where you got to where you are because I think, especially in your case, it's really relevant to the kinds of findings and the kinds of exploration that you're now doing. You started out as an engineer. You have a dual degree. You have a master's in industrial management also. And then you had a career in industry, worked at real factories, GM factories, Otis elevators, and even on Sikorsky helicopters. You had that background, and then you went on to do a bunch of different NSF grants. You got yourself; I don't know, probably before that time, a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering from Columbia. The rest of your career, and you correct me, but you've been doing this mix of really serious industrial work combined with academics. And you've gone a little bit back and forth. Tell me a little bit about what went into your mind as you were entering the manufacturing topics and you started working in factories. Why have you oscillated so much between industry and practice? And tell me really this journey; give me a little bit of specifics on what brought you on this journey and where you are today. JAY: Well, thank you for talking about this career because I cut my teeth from the factory early years. And so, I learned a lot of fundamental things in early years of automation. In the early 1980s, in the U.S, it was a tough time trying to compete with the Japanese automotive industry. So, of course, the Big Three in Detroit certainly took a big giant step, tried to implement a very good manufacturing automation system. So I was working for Robotics Vision System at that time in New York, in Hauppage, New York, Long Island. And shortly, later on, it was invested by General Motors. And in the meantime, I was studying part-time in Columbia for my mechanical engineering, Doctor of Engineering. And, of course, later on, I transferred to George Washington because I had to make a career move. So I finished my Ph.D. Doctor of Science in George Washington later. But the reason we stopped working on that is because of the shortage of knowledge in making automation work in the factory. So I was working full-time trying to implement the robots automation in a factory. In the meantime, I also found a lack of knowledge on how to make a robot work and not just how to make a robot move. Making it move means you can program; you can do very fancy motion. But that's not what factories want. What factories really want is a non-stop working system so they can help people to accomplish the job. So the safety, and the certainty, the accuracy, precision, maintenance, all those things combined together become a headache actually. You have to calibrate the robot all the time. You have to reprogram them. So eventually, I was teaching part-time in Stony Brook also later on how to do the robotic stuff. And I think that was the early part of my career. And most of the time I spent in factory and still in between the part-time study and part-time working. But later on, I got a chance to move to Washington, D.C. I was working for U.S. Postal Service headquarters as Program Director for automation. In 1988, post service started a big initiative trying to automate a 500 mil facility in the U.S. There are about 115 number one facilities which is like New York handled 8 million mail pieces per day at that time; you're talking about '88. But most are manual process, so packages. So we started developing the AI pattern recognition, hand-written zip code recognition, robotic postal handling, and things like that. So that was the opportunity that attracted me actually to move away from automotive to service industry. So it was interesting because you are working with top scientists from different universities, different companies to make that work. So that was the early stage of the work. Later on, of course, I had a chance to work with the National Science Foundation doing content administration in 1991. That gave me the opportunity to work with professors in universities, of course. So then, by working with them, I was working on a lot of centers like engineering research centers and also the Industry-University Cooperative Research Centers Program, and later on, the materials processing manufacturing programs. So 1990 was a big time for manufacturing in the United States. A lot of government money funded the manufacturer research, of course. And so we see great opportunity, like, for example, over the years, all the rapid prototyping started in 1990s. It took about 15-20 years before additive manufacturing came about. So NSF always looks 20 years ahead, which is a great culture, great intellectual driver. And also, they're open to the public in terms of the knowledge sharing and the talent and the education. So I think NSF has a good position to provide STEM education also to allow academics, professors to work with industry as well, not just purely academic work. So we support both sides. So that work actually allowed me to understand what is real status in research, in academics, also how far from real implementation. So in '95, I had the opportunity to work in Japan actually. I had an opportunity...NSF had a collaboration program with the MITI government in Japan. So I took the STA fellowship called science and technology fellow, STA, and to work in Japan for six months and to work with 55 organizations like Toyota, Komatsu, Nissan, FANUC, et cetera. So by working with them, then you also understand what the real technology level Japan was, Japanese companies were. So then you got calibration in terms of how much U.S. manufacturing? How much Japanese manufacturing? So that was in my head, actually. I had good weighting factors to see; hmm, what's going on here between these two countries? That was the time. So when I came back, I said, oh, there's something we have to do differently. So I started to get involved in a lot of other things. In 1998, I had the opportunity to work for United Technologies because UTC came to see me and said, "Jay, you should really apply what you know to real companies." So they brought me to work as a Director for Product Environment Manufacturing Department for UTRC, United Technology Research Center, in East Hartford. Obviously, UTC business included Pratt & Whitney jet engines, Sikorsky helicopters, Otis elevators, Carrier Air Conditioning systems, Hamilton Sundstrand, et cetera. So all the products they're worldwide, but the problem is you want to support global operations. You really need not just the knowledge, what you know, but also the physical usage, what you don't know. So you know, and you don't know. So how much you don't know about a product usage, that's how the data is supposed to be coming back. Unfortunately, back in 1999, I have to tell you; unfortunately, most of the product data never came back. By the time it got back, it is more like a repair overhaul recur every year to a year later. So that's not good. So in Japan, I was experimenting the first remote machine monitoring system using the internet actually in 1995. So I published a paper in '98 about how to remotely use physical machine and cyber machine together. In fact, I want to say that's the first digital twin but as a cyber-physical model together. That was in my paper in 1998 in Journal of Machine Tools and Manufacture. TROND: So, in fact, you were a precursor in so many of these fields. And it just strikes me that as you're going through your career here, there are certain pieces that you seem to have learned all along the way because when you are a career changer oscillating between public, private, semi-private, research, business, you obviously run the risk of being a dilettante in every field, but you seem to have picked up just enough to get on top of the next job with some insight that others didn't have. And then, when you feel like you're frustrated in that current role, you jump back or somewhere else to learn something new. It's fascinating to me because, obviously, your story is longer than this. You have startup companies with your students and others in this business and then, of course, now with the World Economic Forum Lighthouse factories and the work you've been doing for Foxconn as well. So I'm just curious. And then obviously, we'll get to industrial AI, which is so interesting in your perspective here because it's not just the technology of it; it is the industrial practice of this new domain that you have this very unique, practical experience of how a new technology needs to work. Well, you tell me, how did you get to industrial AI? Because you got there to, you know, over the last 15-20 years, you integrated all of this in a new academic perspective. JAY: Well, that's where we start. So like I said earlier, I realized industry we did not have data back in the late 1990s. And in 1999, dotcom collapsed, remember? TROND: Yes, yes. JAY: Yeah. So all the companies tried to say, "Well, we're e-business, e-business, e-commerce, e-commerce," then in 2000, it collapsed. But the reality is that people were talking about e-business, but in the real world, in industrial setting, there's no data almost. So I was thinking, I mean, it's time I need to think about how to look at data-centric perspectives, how to develop such a platform, and also analytics to support if one-day data comes with a worry-free kind of environment. So that's why I decided to transition to an academic career in the year 2000. So what I started thinking, in the beginning, was where has the most data? As we all know, the product lifecycle usage is out there. You have lots of data, but we're not collecting it. So eventually, I called a central Intelligent Maintenance System called IMS, not intelligent manufacturing system because maintenance has lots of usage data which most developers of a product don't know. But if we have a way to collect this data to analyze and predict, then we can guarantee the product uptime or the value creation, and then the customer will gain most of the value back. Now we can use the data feedback to close-loop design. That was the original thinking back in the year 2000, which at that time, no cell phone could connect to the internet. Of course, nobody believed you. So we used a term called near-zero downtime, near-zero downtime, ZDT. Nobody believed us. Intel was my first founding member. So I made a pitch to FANUC in 2001. Of course, they did not believe it either. Of course, FANUC in 2014 adopted ZDT, [laughs] ZDT as a product name. But as a joke, when I talked to the chairman, the CEO of the company in 2018 in Japan, Inaba-san that "Do you know first we present this ZDT to your company in Michigan? They didn't believe it. Now you guys adopted." "Oh, I didn't know you use it." So when he came to visit in 2019, they brought the gift. [laughs] So anyway, so what happened is during the year, so we worked with the study of 6 companies, 20 companies and eventually they became over 100 companies. And in 2005, I worked with Procter & Gamble and GE Aircraft Engine. They now became GE Aviation; then, they got a different environment. So machine learning became a typical thing you use every day, every program, but we don't really emphasize AI at that time. The reason is machine learning is just a tool. It's an algorithm like a support-vector machine, self-organizing map, and logistic regression. All those are just supervised learning or now supervised learning techniques. And people use it. We use it like standard work every day, but we don't talk about AI. But over the years, when you work with so many companies, then you realize the biggest turning point was Toyota 2005 and P&G in 2006. The reason I'm telling you 2005 is Toyota had big problems in the factory in Georgetown, Kentucky, where the Camry factory is located. So they had big compressor problems. So we implemented using machine learning, the support-vector machine, and also principal component analysis. And we enable that the surge of a compressor predicted and avoided and never happened. So until today -- TROND: So they have achieved zero downtime after that project, essentially. JAY: Yeah. So that really is the turning point. Of course, at P&G, the diaper line continues moving the high volume. They can predict things, reduce downtime to 1%. There's a lot of money. Diaper business that is like $10 billion per year. TROND: It's so interesting you focus on downtime, Jay, because obviously, in this hype, which we'll get to as well, people seem to focus so much on fully automated versus what you're saying, which is it doesn't really, you know, we will get to the automation part, but it is the downtime that's where a lot of the savings is obviously. Because whether it's a lights out or lights on, humans are not the real saving here. And the real accomplishment is in zero downtime because that is the industrialization factor. And that is what allows the system to keep operating. Of course, it has to do with automation, but it's not just that. Can you then walk us through what then became industrial AI for you? Because as I've now understood it, it is a highly specific term to you. It's not just some sort of fluffy idea of very, very advanced algorithms and robots running crazy around autonomously. You have very, very specific system elements. And they kind of have to work together in some architectural way before you're willing to call it an industrial AI because it may be a machine tool here, and a machine tool there, and some data here. But for you, unless it's put in place in a working architecture, you're not willing to call it, I mean, it may be an AI, but it is not an industrial AI. So how did this thinking then evolve for you? And what are the elements that you think are crucial for something that you even can start to call an industrial AI? Which you now have a book on, so you're the authority on the subject. JAY: Well, I think the real motivation was after you apply all the machine learning toolkits so long...and a company like National Instruments, NI, in Austin, Texas, they licensed our machine learning toolkits in 2015. And eventually, in 2017, they started using the embedding into LabVIEW version. So we started realizing, actually, the toolkit is very important, not just from the laboratory point of view but also from the production and practitioners' point of view from industry. Of course, researchers use it all the time for homework; I mean, that's fine. So eventually, I said...the question came to me about 2016 in one of our industry advisory board meeting. You have so many successes, but the successes that happen can you repeat? Can you repeat? Can you repeatably have the same success in many, many other sites? Repeatable, scalable, sustainable, that's the key three keywords. You cannot just have a one-time success and then just congratulate yourself and forget it, no. So eventually, we said, oh, to make that repeat sustainable, repeatable, you have a systematic discipline. TROND: I'm so glad you say this because I have taken part in a bunch of best practice schemes and sometimes very optimistically by either an industry association or even a government entity. And they say, "Oh yeah, let's just all go on a bunch of factory visits." Or if it's just an IT system, "Let's just all write down what we did, and then share it with other people." But in fact, it doesn't seem to me like it is that easy. It's not like if I just explain what I think I have learned; that's not something others can learn from. Can you explain to me what it really takes to make something replicable? Because you have done that or helped Foxconn do that, for example. And now you're obviously writing up case studies that are now shared in the World Economic Forum across companies. But there's something really granular but also something very systemic and structured about the way things have to be explained in order to actually make it repeatable. What is the sustainability factor that actually is possible to not just blue copy but turn it into something in your own factory? JAY: Well, I think that there are basically several things. The data is one thing. We call it the data technology, DT, and which means data quality evaluation. How do you understand what to use, what not to use? How do you know which data is useful? And how do you know where the data is usable? It doesn't mean useful data is usable, just like you have a blood donation donor, but the blood may not be usable if the donor has HIV. I like to use an analogy like food. You got a fish in your hand; wow, great. But you have to ask where the fish comes from. [chuckles] If it comes from polluted water, it's not edible, right? So great fish but not edible. TROND: So there's a data layer which has to be usable, and it has to be put somewhere and put to use. It actually then has to be used. It can't just be theoretically usable. JAY: So we have a lot of useful data people collect. The problem is people never realized lots of them are not usable because of a lack of a label. They have no background, and they're not normalized. So eventually, that is a problem. And even if you have a lot of data, it doesn't mean it is usable. TROND: So then I guess that's how you get to your second layer, which I guess most people just call machine learning, but for you, it's an algorithmic layer, which is where some of the structuring gets done and some of the machines that put an analysis on this, put in place automatic procedures. JAY: And machine learning to me it's like cooking ware like a kitchen. You got a pan fry; you got a steamer; you got the grill. Those are tools to cook the food, the data. Food is like data. Cooking ware is like AI. But it depends on purpose. For example, you want fish. What do you want to eat first? I want soup. There's a difference. Do you want to grill? Do you want to just deep fry? So depending on how you want to eat it, the cooking ware will be selected differently. TROND: Well, and that's super interesting because it's so easy to say, well, all these algorithms and stuff they're out there, and all you have to do is pick up some algorithms. But you're saying, especially in a factory, you can't just pick any tool. You have to really know what the effect would be if you start to...for example, on downtime, right? Because I'm imagining there are very many advanced techniques that could be super advanced, but they are perhaps not the right tool for the job, for the workers that are there. So how does that come into play? Are these sequential steps, by the way? So once you figure out what the data is then, you start to fiddle with your tools. JAY: Well, there are two perspectives; one perspective is predict and prevent. So you predict something is going to happen. You prevent it from happening, number one. Number two, understand the root causes and potential root causes. So that comes down to the visible and invisible perspective. So from the visible world, we know what to measure. For example, if you have high blood pressure, you measure blood pressure every day, but that may not be the reason for high blood pressure. It may be because of your DNA, maybe because of the food you eat, because of lack of exercise, because of many other things, right? TROND: Right. JAY: So if you keep measuring your blood pressure doesn't mean you have no heart attack. Okay, so if you don't understand the reason, measuring blood pressure is not a problem. So I'm saying that you know what you don't know. So we need to find out what you don't know. So the correlation of invisible, I call, visible-invisible. So I will predict, but you also want to know the invisible reason relationship so you can prevent that relationship from happening. So that is really called deep mining those invisibles. So we position ourselves very clearly between visible-invisible. A lot of people just say, "Oh, we know what the problem is." The problem is not a purpose. For example, the factory manufacturing there are several very strong purposes, number one quality, right? Worry-free quality. Number two, your efficiency, how much you produce per dollar. If you say that you have great quality, but I spent $10,000 to make it, it is very expensive. But if you spend $2 to make it, wow, that's great. How did you do it? So quality per dollar is a very different way of judging how good you are. You got A; I spent five days studying. I got A; I spent two hours studying. Now you show the capability difference. TROND: I agree. And then the third factor in your framework seems to be platform. And that's when I think a lot of companies go wrong as well because platform is...at least historically in manufacturing, you pick someone else's platform. You say I'm going to implement something. What's available on the market, and what can I afford, obviously? Or ideally, what's the state of the art? And I'll just do that because everyone seems to be doing that. What does platform mean to you, and what goes into this choice? If you're going to create this platform for industrial AI, what kind of a decision is that? JAY: So DT is data, AT is algorithm, and PT is platform, PT platform. Platform means some common things are used in a shared community. For example, kitchen is a platform. You can cook. I can cook. I can cook Chinese food. I can cook Italian food. I can cook Indian food. Same kitchen but different recipe, different seasoning, but same cooking ware. TROND: Correct. Well, because you have a good kitchen, right? JAY: Yes. TROND: So that's -- JAY: [laughs] TROND: Right? JAY: On the platform, you have the most frequently used tool, not everything. You don't need 100 cooking ware in your kitchen. You probably have ten or even five most daily used. TROND: Regardless of how many different cuisines you try to cook. JAY: Exactly. That's called the AI machine toolkit. So we often work with companies and say, "You don't need a lot of tools, come on. You don't need deep learning. You need a good logistic regression and support-vector machine, and you're done." TROND: Got it. JAY: Yeah, you don't need a big chainsaw to cut small bushes. You don't need it. TROND: Right. And that's a very different perspective from the IT world, where many times you want the biggest tool possible because you want to churn a lot of data fast, and you don't really know what you're looking for sometimes. So I guess the industrial context here really constrains you. It's a constraint-based environment. JAY: Yes. So industry, like I said, the industry we talked about three Ps like I said: problems, purposes, and processes. So normally, problem comes from...the main thing is logistic problems, machine, and factory problems, workforce problems, the quality problems, energy problem, ignition problem, safety problems. So the problem happens every day. That's why in factory world, we call it firefighting. Typically, you firefight every day. TROND: And is that your metaphor for the last part of your framework, which is actually operation? So operation sounds really nice and structured, right? JAY: [chuckles] Yes. TROND: As if that was like, yeah, that's the real thing, process. We got this. But in reality, it feels sometimes, to many who are operating a factory; it's a firefight. JAY: Sometimes the reason lean theme work, Six Sigma, you turn a problem into a process, five Ss process, okay? And fishbone diagram, Pareto chart, and Kaizen before and after. So all the process, SOP, so doesn't matter which year workforce comes in, they just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. So in Toyota, the term used to be called manufacturing is just about the discipline. It's what they said. The Japanese industry manufacturing is about discipline, how you follow a discipline to everyday standard way, sustainable way, consistent way, and then you make good products. This is how the old Toyota was talking about, old one. But today, they don't talk that anymore. Training discipline is only one thing; you need to understand the value of customers. TROND: Right. So there are some new things that have to be added to the lean practices, right? JAY: Yes. TROND: As time goes by. So talk to me then more about the digital element because industrial AI to you, clearly, there's a very clear digital element, but there's so many, many other things there. So I'm trying to summarize your framework. You have these four factors: data, algorithms, platforms, and operations. These four aspects of a system that is the challenge you are dealing with in any factory environment. And some of them have to do with digital these days, and others, I guess, really have to do more with people. So when that all comes together, do you have some examples? I don't know, we talked about Toyota, but I know you've worked with Foxconn and Komatsu or Siemens. Can you give me an example of how this framework of yours now becomes applied in a context? Where do people pick up these different elements, and how do they use them? JAY: There's a matrix thinking. So horizontal thinking is a common thing; you need to have good digital thread including DT, data technology, AT, algorithms or analytics, PT, platform, edge cloud, and the things, and OT operation like scheduling, optimizations, stuff like that. Now, you got verticals, quality vertical, cost vertical, efficiency verticals, safety verticals, emission verticals. So you cannot just talk about general. You got to have focus on verticals. For example, let me give you one example: quality verticals. Quality is I'm the factory manager. I care about quality. Yes, the customer will even care more, so they care. But you have a customer come to your shop once a month to check. You ask them, "Why you come?" "Oh, I need to see how good your production." "How about you don't have to come? You can see my entire quality." "Wow, how do I do that?" So eventually, we develop a stream of quality code, SOQ, Stream Of Quality. So it's not just about the product is good. I can go back to connect all the processes of the quality segment of each station. Connect them together. Just like you got a fish, oh, okay, the fish is great. But I wonder, when the fish came out of water, when the fish was in the truck, how long was it on the road? And how long was it before reaching my physical distribution center and to my home? So if I have a sensor, I can tell you all the temperature history inside the box. So when you get your fish, you take a look; oh, from the moment the fish came out of the boat until it reached my home, the temperature remained almost constant. Wow. Now you are worry-free. It's just one thing. So you connect together. So that's why we call SOQ, Stream Of Quality, like a river connected. So by the time a customer gets a quality product, they can trace back and say, "Wow, good. How about if I let you see it before you come? How about you don't come?" I say, "Oh, you know what? I like it." That's what this type of manufacturing is about. It just doesn't make you happy. You have to make the customer happy, worry-free. MID-ROLL AD: In the new book from Wiley, Augmented Lean: A Human-Centric Framework for Managing Frontline Operations, serial startup founder Dr. Natan Linder and futurist podcaster Dr. Trond Arne Undheim deliver an urgent and incisive exploration of when, how, and why to augment your workforce with technology, and how to do it in a way that scales, maintains innovation, and allows the organization to thrive. The key thing is to prioritize humans over machines. Here's what Klaus Schwab, Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, says about the book: "Augmented Lean is an important puzzle piece in the fourth industrial revolution." Find out more on www.augmentedlean.com and pick up the book in a bookstore near you. TROND: So, Jay, you took the words out of my mouth because I wanted to talk about the future. I'm imagining when you say worry-free, I mean, you're talking about a soon-to-be state of manufacturing. Or are you literally saying there are some factories, some of the excellence factories where you've won awards in the World Economic Forum or other places that are working towards this worry-free manufacturing, and to some extent, they have achieved it? Well, elaborate for me a little bit about the future outlook of manufacturing and especially this people issue because you know that I'm engaged...The podcast is called Augmented Podcast. I'm engaged in this debate about automation. Well, is there a discrepancy between automation and augmentation? And to what extent is this about people running the system? Or is it the machines that we should optimize to run all the system? For you, it's all about worry-free. First of all, just answer this question, is worry-free a future ideal, or is it actually here today if you just do the right things? JAY: Well, first of all, worry-free is our mindset where the level of satisfaction should be, right? TROND: Yep. JAY: So to make manufacturing happen is not about how to make good quality, how to make people physically have less worry, how to make customers less worry is what is. But the reason we have a problem with workforce today, I mean, we have a hard time to hire not just highly skilled workers but even regular workforce. Because for some reason, not just U.S., it seems everywhere right now has similar problems. People have more options these days to select other living means. They could be an Uber driver. [laughs] They could be...I don't know. So there are many options. You don't have to just go to the factory to make earnings. They can have a car and drive around Uber and Lyft or whatever. They can deliver the food and whatever. So they can do many other things. And so today, you want to make workforce work environment more attractive. You have to make sure that they understand, oh, this is something they can learn; they can grow. They are fulfilled because the environment gives them a lot of empowerment. The vibe, the environment gives them a wow, especially young people; when you attract them from college, they'd like a wow kind of environment, not just ooh, okay. [laughs] TROND: Yeah. Well, it's interesting you're saying this. I mean, we actually have a lack of workers. So it's not just we want to make factories full of machines; it's actually the machines are actually needed just because there are no workers to fill these jobs. But you're looking into a future where you do think that manufacturing is and will be an attractive place going forward. That seems to be that you have a positive vision of the future we're going into. You think this is attractive. It's interesting for workers. JAY: Yeah. See, I often say that there are some common horizontal we have to use all the day. Vertical is the purpose, quality. I talked about vertical quality first, quality. But what are the horizontal common? I go A, B, C, D, E, F. What's A? AI. B is big data. C is cyber and cloud. D is digital or digital twin, whatever. E is environment ecosystem and emission reduction. What's F? Very important, fun. [laughs] If you miss that piece, who wants to work for a place there's no fun? You tell me would you work for...you and I, we're talking now because it's fun. You talk to people and different perspectives. I talk to you, and I say, wow, you've built some humongous network here in the physical...the future of digital, not just professional space but also social space but also the physical space. So, again, the fun things inspire people, right? TROND: They do. So talking about inspiring people then, Jay, if you were to paint a picture of this future, I guess, we have talked just now about workers and how if you do it right, it's going to be really attractive workplaces in manufacturing. How about for, I guess, one type of worker, these knowledge workers more generally? Or, in fact, is there a possibility that you see that not just is it going to be a fun place to be for great, many workers, but it's actually going to be an exciting knowledge workplace again? Which arguably, industrialization has gone through many stages. And being in a factory wasn't always all that rosy, but it was certainly financially rewarding for many. And it has had an enormous career progression for others who are able to find ways to exploit this system to their benefit. How do you see that going forward? Is there a scope, is there a world in which factory work can or perhaps in an even new way become truly knowledge work where all of these industrial AI factors, the A to the Fs, produce fun, but they produce lasting progression, and career satisfaction, empowerment, all these buzzwords that everybody in the workplace wants and perhaps deserves? JAY: That's how we look at the future workforce is not just about the work but also the knowledge force. So basically, the difference is that people come in, and they become seasoned engineers, experienced engineers. And they retire, and the wisdom carries with them. Sometimes you have documentation, Excel sheet, PPT in the server, but nobody even looks at it. That's what today's worry is. So now what you want is living knowledge, living intelligence. The ownership is very important. For example, I'm a worker. I develop AI, not just the computer software to help the machine but also help me. I can augment the intelligence. I will augment it. When I make the product happen, the inspection station they check and just tell me pass or no pass. They also tell me the quality, 98, 97, but you pass. And then you get your score. You got a 70, 80, 90, but you got an A. 99, you got an A, 91, you got an A, 92. So what exactly does A mean? So, therefore, I give you a reason, oh, this is something. Then I learn. Okay, I can contribute. I can use voice. I can use my opinion to augment that no, labeled. So next time people work, oh, I got 97. And so the reason is the features need to be maintained, to be changed, and the system needs to be whatever. So eventually, you have a human contribute. The whole process could be consisting of 5 experts, 7, 10, 20, eventually owned by 20 people. That legacy continues. And you, as a worker, you feel like you're part of the team, leave a legacy for the next generation. So eventually, it's augmented intelligence. The third level will be actual implementation. So AI is not about artificial intelligence; it is about actual implementation. So people physically can implement things in a way they can make data to decisions. So their decision mean I want to make an adjustment. I want to find out how much I should adjust. Physically, I can see the gap. I can input the adjustment level. The system will tell me physically how could I improve 5%. Wow, that's good. I made a 5% improvement. Your boss also knows. And your paycheck got the $150 increase this month. Why? Because my contribution to the process quality improved, so I got the bonus. That's real-world feedback. TROND: Let me ask you one last question about how this is going to play out; I mean, in terms of how the skilling of workers is going to allow this kind of process. A lot of people are telling me about the ambitions that I'm describing...and some of the guests on the podcasts and also the Tulip software platform, the owner of this podcast, that it is sometimes optimistic to think that a lot of the training can just be embedded in the work process. That is obviously an ideal. But in America, for example, there is this idea that, well, you are either a trained worker or an educated worker, or you are an uneducated worker. And then yes, you can learn some things on the job. But there are limits to how much you can learn directly on the job. You have to be pulled out, and you have to do training and get competencies. As you're looking into the future, are there these two tracks? So you either get yourself a short or long college degree, and then you move in, and then you move faster. Or you are in the factory, and then if you then start to want to learn things, you have to pull yourself out and take courses, courses, courses and then go in? Or is it possible through these AI-enabled training systems to get so much real-time feedback that a reasonably intelligent person actually never has to be pulled out of work and actually they can learn on the job truly advanced things? So because there are two really, really different futures here, one, you have to scale up an educational system. And, two, you have to scale up more of a real-time learning system. And it seems to me that they're actually discrepant paths. JAY: Sure. To me, I have a framework in my book. I call it the four P structure, four P. First P is principle-based. For example, in Six Sigma, in lean manufacturing, there's some basic stuff you have to study, basic stuff like very simple fishbone diagram. You have to understand those things. You can learn by yourself what that is. You can take a very basic introduction course. So we can learn and give you a module. You can learn yourself or by a group, principle-based. The second thing is practice-based. Basically, we will prepare data for you. We will teach you how to use a tool, and you will do it together as a team or as individual, and you present results by using data I give to you, the tool I give to you. And it's all, yeah, my team A presented. Oh, they look interesting. And group B presented, so we are learning from each other. Then after the group learning is finished, you go back to your team in the real world. You create a project called project-based learning. You take a tool you learn. You take the knowledge you learn and to find a project like a Six Sigma project you do by yourself. You formulate. And then you come back to the class maybe a few weeks later, present with a real-world project based on the boss' approval. So after that, you've got maybe a black belt but with the last piece professional. Then you start teaching other people to repeat the first 3ps. You become master black belt. So we're not reinventing a new term. It really is about a similar concept like lean but more digital space. Lean is about personal experience, and digital is about the data experience is what's the big difference. TROND: But either way, it is a big difference whether you have to rely on technological experts, or you can do a lot of these things through training and can get to a level of aptitude that you can read the signals at least from the system and implement small changes, perhaps not the big changes but you can at least read the system. And whether they're low-code or no-code, you can at least then through learning frameworks, you can advance, and you can improve in not just your own work day, but you can probably in groups, and feedbacks, and stuff you can bring the whole team and the factory forward perhaps without relying only on these external types of expertise that are actually so costly because they take you away. So per definition, you run into this; I mean, certainly isn't worry-free because there is an interruption in the process. Well, look, this is fascinating. Any last thoughts? It seems to me that there are so many more ways we can dig deeper on your experience in any of these industrial contexts or even going deeper in each of the frameworks. Is there a short way to encapsulate industrial AI that you can leave us with just so people can really understand? JAY: Sure. TROND: It's such a fundamental thing, AI, and people have different ideas about that, and industry people have something in their head. And now you have combined them in a unique way. Just give us one sentence: what is industrial AI? What should people leave this podcast with? JAY: AI is a cognitive science, but industrial AI is a systematic discipline is one sentence. So that means people have domain knowledge. Now we have to create data to represent our domain then have the discipline to solve the domain problems. Usually, with domain knowledge, we try with our experience, and you and I know; that's it. But we have no data coming out. But if I have domain become data and data become discipline, then other people can repeat our success even our mistake; they understand why. So eventually, domain, data, discipline, 3 Ds together, you can make a good decision, sustainable and long-lasting. TROND: Jay, this has been so instructive. I thank you for spending this time with me. And it's a little bit of a never-ending process. JAY: [laughs] TROND: Industry is not something that you can learn it and then...because also the domain changes and what you're doing and what you're producing changes as well. So it's a lifelong -- JAY: It's rewarding. TROND: Rewarding but lifelong quest. JAY: Yeah. Well, thank you for the opportunity to share, to discuss. Thank you. TROND: It's a great pleasure. You have just listened to another episode of the Augmented Podcast with host Trond Arne Undheim. The topic was Industrial AI. And our guest was Professor Jay Lee from University of Cincinnati. In this conversation, we talked about how AI in industry needs to work every time and what that means. My takeaway is that industrial AI is a breakthrough that will take a while to mature. It implies discipline, not just algorithms. In fact, it entails a systems architecture consisting of data, algorithm, platform, and operation. Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co or in your preferred podcast player, and rate us with five stars. If you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 81: From Predictive to Diagnostic Manufacturing Augmentation. Hopefully, you'll find something awesome in these or in other episodes, and if so, do let us know by messaging us. We would love to share your thoughts with other listeners. The Augmented Podcast is created in association with Tulip, the frontline operation platform that connects the people, machines, devices, and systems used in a production or logistics process in a physical location. Tulip is democratizing technology and is empowering those closest to operations to solve problems. Tulip is also hiring. You can find Tulip at tulip.co. Please share this show with colleagues who care about where industry and especially where industrial tech is heading. To find us on social media is easy; we are Augmented Pod on LinkedIn and Twitter and Augmented Podcast on Facebook and YouTube. Augmented — industrial conversations that matter. See you next time. Special Guest: Jay Lee.

Anybody who's been in sales has probably been in a situation where you've been in a room with someone and you're looking at them and you're having a conversation with them. And they're looking around the room. They're looking at things. People are buzzing them on the phone. They're like, "excuse me." They're taking the call and you're sitting there and you're thinking, "why am I here? Why am I doing this?" So other people's focus or lack of focus will give you a really good idea of where you stand with them. David: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. We are back once again. Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing, maintaining focus in your day. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: It's so good to be here, David. And I know that focus is something that everybody's working on. One of the reasons I know this is all of the technology companies are building focus tools into their devices. We must be wanting this because I can now tell my phone, no I'm focused on this and it gives me different screens for that particular time so that I can be focused in on this. So we must all want to be able to focus better. And the question is, how do we achieve that? David: Yeah. Especially when there are other technology companies that are trying to get you to focus on them. Right? You gave a great example. I noticed that too, on my phone, there's the new focus button. And I like that idea, but in the meantime, nearly every social media platform is designed to steal your focus, to derail you from what it is that you wanted to do today in favor of what they would like to have you do today, which is to scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, and then scroll some more. So we do have technology that is working for us, and we have technology that is working against us. But last time when we were talking about the idea of building proactively, I think these things tie together. As we're building proactively, we recognize that it does require day-to-day focus. And so in order to do that, we have to say, okay, how are we going to make it happen? Particularly with all sorts of forces, potentially conspiring against us. Jay: Yeah. I love that point, that on the one hand tech is trying to help us focus, and then everything else in the world, I'm like, "squirrel!" You know, squirrel there's something new and it's not just social media who's trying to distract you. It's the employees who want your time, the customers who call up because they don't know your schedule. They just know they have a question, right? So they're calling you. So how do you go about building some semblance of focus throughout your day with all of these distractions that are coming in constantly? David: Well, from my standpoint, I think we need to decide at the beginning of the day, as early as possible, what really needs to happen today? Because that'll help us to determine where our focus needs to be. What is it that actually has to get done? What has to happen? What do you have to do versus what do other people in your organization have to do? So if you own the organization, you're going to have to determine what you're doing and what they need to be focused on. And how are you going to avoid distraction? Lots of people have, or had, open door policies when people were working together. Do I have my door open? Do I have my door closed? I liked the idea of having an open-door policy. So for many years in my business, I did. But unfortunately, that sometimes programs people to think, okay, door's open! I'm constantly available. So you really need to balance that and make determinations as far as how much of your time during a given day is going to be dedicated to focus time. The work that you have to get done in a specific timeframe, in a specific way, without distraction. And then adapt or create an environment that allows you to do that. Jay: Yeah. I have a funny story. I went to a company, it was a brand new company.

Particularly in the early stages, you can do more of what you're doing to get past a sales plateau. But generally, at some point, we hit a plateau that is created by the fact that we can't run any faster. We can't do any more by ourselves. So we either need to implement new procedures and new processes, we need to get some help, or something needs to change fundamentally in the business, in order to get us to that next level. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, cohost Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing the idea of overcoming your sales plateau. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: It's so good to be here again with you David, and as always, I'm very excited about this topic. I know businesses that hit these thresholds. It can be a monumental task to get to the next level and they're not sure how to do it. Is it, is it marketing? Is it adding new products? I think that's what a lot of them try to do. They're like, well, let's add 10 more products to the lineup and then we'll do it. And oftentimes that can just make the situation worse and not better. David: Yeah, it's true. Most businesses, I think it's safe to say, at some point run into some sort of plateau. They hit a level of sales and they can't get past it. I believe in small businesses this is particularly true, where you're just working and pushing and you're trying to get to that next benchmark. And you just can't reach it. And there are thresholds, I believe in small business, getting to your first hundred thousand in gross sales and then your first 250, and then you hit 500 and then a million and then 2 million and going from there. And in the early stages, you can generally do pretty well, like to get from a hundred thousand to 250 is often easier than it is to get from a million to 2 million. But most of us, at some point, will encounter some sort of plateau. You get there, you see it, you're targeting it, you're working toward it and you just can't seem to hit it. And so it's really just a matter of getting stuck. It's like, I feel like I'm stuck and I'm here and I need to be here and I'm not sure what to do next. Jay: Yeah. And I wonder how much of it is that they're not really sure how they got to the first plateau. I mean, they may think that they know, David: That's true. Jay: But it could be something completely different. And this could go back to something we talked about in a previous podcast: following up with your customers. Find out why they purchased, how they feel about their purchase. Are they returning customers? Are they not returning customers? So if you didn't understand why they bought in the first place and how they felt about that purchase, it's going to be hard to push through that next plateau. David: It is, absolutely. And the biggest hangup that I see for most people is not knowing, "what do I do next?" And as you indicated, people get to a certain point in some cases, they're not sure how they did it. What's that referred to as? Unconscious competence? Jay: Mm-hmm, David: Where I'm doing things and it's working, but I'm not even sure of what I've done. So I haven't gotten around to building a system around it to put that into place so I can replicate it. But there's also the idea that what gets me to here will not necessarily get me to here. Right? So what gets me to level one won't necessarily get me to level two. That's not always the case, particularly in the early stages, you can do more of what you're doing to get to a higher level. But generally, at some point, we hit a plateau that is created by the fact that we can't run any faster. We can't do any more by ourselves. So we either need to implement new procedures and new processes. Or we need to get some help. Or something needs to change fundamentally in the business, in order to get us to that next level. Jay: Yeah, something that can be very hard for people, delegation, right?

Reactivating your client base is easier when you create a community. This is overlooked by a lot of business people. If you're interested in keeping your clients engaged and interacting, then by creating a community where you can interact with them on an ongoing basis, and they can, in some cases, interact with each other, it creates more of a bond than they would likely have with somebody if they're just doing more of a transactional type of thing. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, cohost Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing reactivating your client base. Welcome Jay. Jay: It's good to be here. You know, it's funny. I hear this everywhere I go now. If I watch Shark Tank or anything else, I hear this term CAC. You know, what is your CAC? And it's your customer acquisition cost. And I have to believe that your CAC, for a customer you've already worked with, has got to be lower than trying to bring in a brand new customer. Am I right? David: Oh, absolutely. And I think instinctively as business people, we probably already know this. We've probably heard it a hundred times, but the purpose of this discussion is not to have you hear it again. The purpose of this discussion is to ask, "are you doing this?" And if so, how well are you doing this? How much better could you be doing this? Because as you pointed out, once you've invested that money to acquire a customer, now you want to be able to leverage that relationship as much as possible to provide them with additional help, additional solutions so that you can generate the revenue. They can get the results they're looking for, and you're not spending more money to attract people. You're able to just expand the relationships that you have with the people who you've already acquired that first time. Jay: Yeah. And I think it's disappointing if you spent that money for customer acquisition and then you don't have a system to retain them or keep them online. And so now it's almost like you're spending the same money twice. If you're trying to get them back again. David: Right. Yes. And so when we think about reactivation, there are a couple of aspects to it. One is just people who haven't bought from you in a little while, to touch base with them again, to reengage those people and to see what they want, what they need. Essentially, requalifying them to find out where they are in that process. Are they ready to buy more things? Do they have a date in mind when they want to buy? Are they ready to go now? Or are they just not ready to do anything? Are they sort of disqualified for the moment? Are they unresponsive to you? Because they'll generally fall into one of those five categories. They're either ready to buy. They have dates in mind when they want to buy. They're open to the idea, but not sure when. Or they're disqualified, or they're not responsive. When you are able to go back and sort of requalify your existing clients, you can reactivate the ones who are ready to go now. You can schedule the ones who know when they want to go next. And the ones who are generally receptive, you can just stay in touch. Jay: Yeah. Or what about the ones who were disappointed, but they didn't take the time. Right? So many customers will never tell you that they had a bad experience. They just move on and... David: Yeah. Jay: you had no idea. So you're not improving your customer service and your chance of reviving that customer is very low. David: Yeah. And that's an excellent point, too. Because as you indicated, if you don't know that, but you're reaching out to them to see how you can help next, and you find out about that problem, then at least you have the possibility of restoring the relationship, if not doing anything about the previous order. Jay: Yeah. So what are we talking about here? Like good drip campaigns? Is that kind of where you would start? So you're in constant contact?

David: Hi and welcome to the podcast. Today, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing reimagining the essentials. Welcome, Jay. Good to have you here. Jay: It's so good to be here once again. I'm very excited about today's topic. What's the Point of Reimagining the Essentials? David: Yeah. I mean the whole idea of the essentials to some people it's like, "oh, essentials, that's boring." Right? But it seems to me that in current times we really need to look at the essentials and say, "okay, how can we tweak them or fine tune them or change them around so that they're going to be more effective in a 21st century post-COVID economy?" Jay: Yeah. When I think about essentials, I think about foundational type things. And once you take away the foundation, other things that you have in play don't work as well. So what type of essentials specifically are we talking about that we want to, that we might look at in one when everybody looks at it that way, but we're going to reimagine or rethink about them in a different way? David: Well, I guess when I think of the fundamentals or the essentials, I tend to think of the real basics, prospecting, presenting, following up when it comes to sales. And sometimes you start talking about those things and people's eyes glaze over like, "oh, I know all that stuff." And yeah, we all know we need to do it. Knowing and Doing are Two Different Things We all know we need to do prospecting. We need to make presentations. We need to follow up with prospects and clients. But knowing it, knowing what to do, is really not the issue at all. It's how are we doing it? How well are we doing it? How much better are we doing it than our competitors? How frequently are we doing it? How consistently are we doing it? There are all these different nuanced aspects of it that completely change the results. And when we look at things like prospecting now versus five years ago, 10 years ago, it's completely different. Same thing with presenting, same thing with following up. In the past, it was basically phone and in person. Well now phone and in person are a lot less popular than other methods of communication. So that's really what I'm talking about here. Jay: Yeah, I think again, it's so important, you know, it's so easy to just fall into that trap of I've, you know, we've done it this way forever and it's always worked. I think it's hard for people to break free from those things, because it's hard to know what type of impact you really can have. And I think part of that is even understanding what your baseline is before you can make changes to understand if you're making any progress, right? What Happens When Everything Changes? David: Yeah, absolutely. And I hear both sides of that from people. I hear people who are like, " oh yeah, you know, I've been doing this forever. I know exactly what I'm doing and all that sort of thing." And then I have people on the other side who are like, "Hey, I'm doing all the things that I've done before. I'm doing it more aggressively. I'm doing much more of it. I'm doing it with more people and it's not working." And so for the people who are struggling with that... again, it's not really a matter of saying, "well, now instead of prospecting, we need to do something different." No, you're still going to need to do prospecting. The question is, "can we now do it in a way that is going to reach the people that you need to reach, communicate the things that we need to communicate and allow us to advance our communications and close the sales?" Reimagining the Essentials Post-COVID Jay: Yeah, I have to think that COVID has had a huge impact on reimagining the essentials. Before, in-person experiences were the norm. That was the expectation in so many ways. Now people are standoffish about that. We've become much more interested in doing something online or over the phone. That's not nearly as personal.

Sean: Is there a reason why you didn't do it in such a way as we did where we have a multiple choice answer and they could just answer the test? Are there advantages to doing it live? Jay: It doesn't scale as well. So I will say that your approach is certainly more scalable. However, I think the differences between self-reported data and observed data. And so if you ask a candidate a question during a job application process, they are trying to game the system to get hired. So they're not necessarily answering the question in an honest way that reflects them. They're answering the question in a way that gives them the best chance of being hired, even if it's actually; hopefully not intentionally a lie.  Jay: So for anybody who applies to Sensei Labs, you're going to know the secret to this answer. But what we're looking for is the language that they describe the team. Because if the language is ‘all I, I did this, I accomplished this.' They are not selfless. If the language is 'we did this or even as a leader, I really enabled the team and then they took it and were successful with it.' That's what we're looking for in that answer.  Jay: So we'll ask that question and we're listening to the language that they're using. Are they saying' I'? Are they saying ‘we' when they get to the end of it, I'll say, 'hey, that was really great. Tell me another one,' because they usually don't have a prepared second story to go to. So you've got through the managed and massaged language of what they were going to tell you. And now they kind of have to think on their feet a little bit and they have to come up with that second story. And that's where you're going to start to really get to the good stuff, where the message isn't being manipulated as much and you can't get there when you're asking people to self-report that in an application, which doesn't mean that you can't screen earlier through automated means, right? Jay:  But the best people that we've hired over the years were people that we went out and recruited rather than the candidates who have applied. So is not to say that we haven't had some great candidates who have applied. So don't just throw those resumes out when people apply. But if you just think about it in terms of supply and demand, most of the candidates who are the best candidates for your role are happily being very successful somewhere else, and they're not on the market. If you happen to have got lucky with timing and they had decided to look for some new role.  Jay: But the really great people aren't looking. They're in a great job right now that they're being successful at. And so it's your job as a hirer to go out and find those people and recruit them out of those jobs. It's not great for the company that was happily employing them right now, but they are going to end up being some of the best candidates. And you will occasionally get lucky with people who have applied. - - - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

Jay Nath is the Co-CEO of City Innovate, a govtech company streamlining procurement through enterprise software and innovative frameworks. He talks with Chad about how he focuses on helping governments be more effective, responsive, and zeroed in on helping their constituents whether on a small city or a big state scale. City Innovate (https://www.cityinnovate.com/) Follow City Innovate on Twitter (https://twitter.com/CityInnovate) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/city-innovate/) Follow Jay on Twitter (https://twitter.com/jay_nath) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaynath/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Jay Nath, Co-CEO of City Innovate and former Chief Innovation Officer of San Francisco. Jay, thanks for joining me. JAY: Yeah, Chad, thank you for having me. CHAD: I assume based on the name and the fact that I've done my research...but I assume based on the name of City Innovate and the fact that you're a former Chief Innovation Officer of San Francisco that what City Innovate might be. But why don't you give everybody an overview of what it is? JAY: Thank you, Chad. So City Innovate is focused on helping governments be more effective, responsive, and focused on helping their constituents, whether it's a small city government or a big state. And the way that we've been doing this is really sort of an interesting; I'd say wonky place. We found that there's a pressure point in government around documents and specifically on procurement. And why is that interesting? Because what I've seen is if you want to work with government and collaborate, whether it's even volunteering or you're a startup, and you want to work, procurement is often that channel. And it's not really a channel; it's more of a barrier, a byzantine process. You can think of this from a technical frame, creating an API, a read/write API to make that process much more streamlined on both sides, helping governments be able to find the best partners to solve their big challenges. And on the other side, folks from all walks of life, whether you're a massive company or you're a founder in a garage, how do you actually connect those two? So we're really working at that intersection, and it's something that I find a lot of value in and importance in. And surprisingly and maybe not surprisingly, there's a lot of need for technology to help connect those dots. And ultimately, I think what I can do is make that process more inclusive and lower the barriers of entry so that people from different communities can participate and help make their communities better. CHAD: So your clients at City Innovate are cities and governmental organizations. Are you just delivering a product to them, or are you often helping them work better too? JAY: It's a bit of both. From a product standpoint, we're really in the B2B space and very much enterprise, if you will. And part of that standard enterprise SaaS offering is also support services, and that can be training, that can be professional services to help them in thought leadership in different ways. And that's exactly what we do. So we not only have our product, but we help them through something called agile procurement. So it's really borrowing from the software development methodology and applying the same principles and approaches to developing and finding the right partner and being more agile and iterative through that process. And historically, it's been very waterfall and very stilted and overly structured. So really being more focused on outcomes, really being focused on getting data into the process so that you can actually do, let's say, a bake-off and get more information before we make that decision. And it's surprising, Chad, folks in government are often buying multimillion dollars, tens of millions of dollars technology systems without actually trying it out. And think about your personal life. You test drive a car. You look through a home. You make these big decisions with a lot of data and evidence. And in government historically, they've been using paper documents to make that decision, RFPs responses, and marketing material. And it's hard to sift through and say, "Hey, what's real and what's not?" So we've been really helping them think through a more agile evidence-based approach, and our software supports that. And so yeah, it's really leading a movement about changing how they think about partnering with the vendor community or contractors. CHAD: So one of the things that is probably interesting about this and maybe a little bit meta is that this is what you help them do. And so you have to go through that process with them of being procured. [laughs] JAY: It is meta. You're absolutely right. [laughs] CHAD: In order to become the vendor that they use. JAY: That's right. CHAD: What are the challenges inherent in that, and does it ever get in the way? And how do people, either your clients, come to you, or how do you find them? And how do you work through that challenging process of government procurement? JAY: Well, the thing is, since we know this space really well, we know how to navigate those different channels, the byzantine processes I mentioned before. I think one of the things I worked on when I was in the City of San Francisco was a program that brought startups and governments together, and we had an educational component. We'd help founders better understand that exact question. How do you actually get contracts with government? And there are no books that are out there. There's no real knowledge out there. And so, we help them talk about the ten different pathways to doing that. So it's a bit of a hidden art, if you will. And I think there needs to be more conversation and more resources for founders if they're looking to go into the public sector to be able to navigate that. So we know that really well. And we're trying to really help broaden access to that knowledge. CHAD: I assume that the clients you end up getting are people who are...or are governments who want to be better. Otherwise, they wouldn't choose your solution. [laughs] JAY: That's right. Well, I think their motivations are multifold. Some of the governments want a process that's more efficient. They know that they can be more productive. They have maybe staffing constraints, and they have a lot of work, so we can help them on the productivity side. There are other governments that are really focused on hey; we need to get better partners out there. We've been working with the same folks over and over again. How do we work with those innovators in our community? So there's that crowd. And then there's, I think, another group of folks who are saying, "Hey, we wanted to make sure that this process is more inclusive. We want to work with folks who are from different backgrounds who may be underrepresented. How do we make this process more streamlined, more efficient so that they're able to participate more effectively?" So I think the motivations can be different, but it's really at the end of the day centered around this idea of digital transformation and service design that allows these two different worlds to be able to communicate and work together more effectively. CHAD: How long is the typical sales cycle for a client? JAY: Man, yeah, [laughs] it can range from weeks, I would say to months and going over 12 months. It can be 12 to 18 months, trying to get in, doing a trial maybe, giving them that certainty, and then securing budget and that annual process of waiting for that budget approval to happen. So it is not for the faint of heart, especially enterprise software within government is really something that requires a lot of different approaches. So partnerships with bigger companies that have the distribution channel, that might have those relationships, that might have those contracts, how do you actually work with them to shortcut the long procurement process? How do you leverage folks like AWS and other cloud providers that may already have a relationship so that you can, again, piggyback off of that? So I think there are a number of different ways to try to compress that timeframe. But it's not a walk in the park, Chad. CHAD: So, in that environment, how did you get started with City Innovate? How long was it until you were able to get your first real customer? And how did you bridge the gap between founding and being in the market? JAY: That's a great question. So being in the public sector, I knew that procurement is a huge challenge and also a pressure point and a leverage point to unlocking a lot of value. And so the work that we had done with startups and government the first experience that we had was amazing. We had a startup that came in and helped blind people navigate through the airport here in San Francisco SFO in four months and truly a collaboration with the startup and the airport staff. And unfortunately, when it came to procurement, it took two years for them to actually get into contract. CHAD: Wow. JAY: For a startup, that's like dog years. That's like an eternity. And so we really knew that we had to tackle that. So we introduced a methodology called challenge-based procurement that, as I spoke to earlier, is more agile, evidence-based, and outcomes-based. And that really leveled the playing field for these young companies to show that hey, we can actually go in here and help you solve that problem. You don't have to work with a big publicly-traded company to do this work and spend a lot of money. We can be more nimble and agile. And so that's really where I started to dig in deeper into procurement. And that work got federally funded because it created a lot of jobs. And we've had hundreds of startups all across the U.S. It's an international program called STIR, Startup In Residence, and really proud of that work. Our mayor, unfortunately, died unexpectedly. So we looked at hey, where do we move this program? And it did make sense for a city to manage a multi-city program, and so City Innovate came to mind. At the time, they were a non-profit. I'd been working with my co-CEO co-executive director at the time. It was a nice, beautiful transition into that. And at that time, I said for myself personally, where do I see impact, and what can I do? And for me, the idea of entrepreneurship, the idea of products making impact in government, I saw how much impact was being made. And so City Innovate has really become that vehicle for myself and the organization to really scale that idea out. CHAD: You mentioned you have a co-CEO. How did that come about? And how do you split the responsibilities between the two of you? JAY: Well, the good thing is we're really great complements. So his focus is really on go-to-market and focusing on how do we get this in the hands of our customers or prospective customers? And I've always been very interested on the product side. I was formerly a VP of product at a startup before my time in government, and so that scenario I find keen interest. And I deeply understand the personas and the use cases of government, having spent a lot of time there. And so that empathy and understanding and building a product around that and having somebody who can help get that product in the hands of government navigating through those difficult processes. It really does take that. You can have a great product, but without that ability to get it in the hands of your customers, especially with governments, it's really challenging. CHAD: Is there any in particular...like, why Co-CEO and not two other C-level roles, one of you CEO, one of you CIO? JAY: I don't think we've spent too much time debating that. And that might change, I think to your point to better describe our focus areas. Maybe my role changes to chief product officer and his to a different role title. I think if you're starting a company, you've got a lot of things to worry about. And it just seemed like a...yeah, I don't think there was much thought in it. CHAD: Yeah. That's interesting, though. You alluded to what you were doing before the City of San Francisco. Well, let's dive into that a little bit more. And specifically, what were you doing, and then why did you join the public sector? JAY: So I was VP of Product at a company called SquareTrade. It was a wonderful journey. We were working with, again, something kind of wonky and a space that was anti-consumer. It was around warranties, specifically electronic warranties. And we were in the eBay marketplace and expanded way beyond that in later years. But when I was there, we really took a contrarian perspective and being inspired by Zappos and many companies that are really focused on the consumer. We changed that value proposition to say, hey, can we build a product that people love, a warranty that actually works? And so we did crazy things like we would actually give you the money before you returned the product. We would have the shipping label. And we wouldn't ask any questions. We did amazing things. But that wasn't just because we were focused on the user experience. We also had data to back it up. We knew that, hey, there are a certain percentage of people who are going to return rocks. And there's a certain percentage of people who are going to do certain things. So we had a lot of information going in. The other thing we knew is that we could own the whole stack, the underwriting, the retailing. And we also knew the business. So that was a great experience. But I really was missing this connection to the public good and doing something that was having impact in a really tangible way. That's when I saw why don't I work for a city I love deeply and care about? And that really drove me into thinking about public service. I had some friends who were in it, and they convinced me that I should take a look at that. And I definitely have found the work that I had been doing in public service to be extremely rewarding and just a unique opportunity. Especially if you're a technologist or a product mindset or an engineering mindset, that is such a rare perspective in government, and being able to bring that in, you can do amazing things. We all know the healthcare.gov and how that was imploding and exploding. It almost brought down a presidency and administration, and it was saved. I think many people know the story, especially in your audience. That was really folks in Silicon Valley saying, "Hey, I'm going to raise my hand and volunteer my time. I might be working at a big company and making a lot of money, but I will take my time out and try to help." And they did. They turned it around. And I think that ethos and that mindset of giving back is something that's animated my interests in public sector and the fact that there's so much need, especially from the tech community, in helping the government out. CHAD: Now, you didn't get started as the City Innovation Officer. [chuckles] So you got started as the Manager of Enterprise CRM for the City of San Francisco. JAY: That's right. Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, definitely. CHAD: I think that public sector work is maybe a little bit of a black box for people. I know it is for me. You mentioned you knew some people, but I assume that was not a political appointment job. JAY: It was not. CHAD: So, how does one get into that, find it, and get that job and that kind of thing? JAY: I think I took a very rare and uncommon path. So as you noted, I came in helping stand up a call center. So a 311 one call center which is, for the folks who don't know, 311 is for non-emergencies, potholes, et cetera, starting a business, how do I do that? So yeah, set up a CRM system 24/7. It was a great experience and actually much harder than I thought. I was working harder there than I had at the startup, so breaking some stereotypes or at least some ideas that I had in my mind. But I quickly found myself saturating that opportunity and saying, hey, what do I want to do? And this was at the time that Obama had just come into office, and he had a call to action. His first memo in office was around openness and collaboration and that I felt was really compelling to me. I had the opportunity to say, "Hey, let me reach out to folks in White House. I don't have any relationships there, but I have this badge of San Francisco." And that started me on a journey of innovation, civic innovation. And I did some really interesting things with great startups like Twitter at the time. We created a read/write API, the first of its kind in local government. Almost got fired by the [inaudible 16:45] [laughter] and trying to explain just like, why are you opening a channel into government to let people do horrible things? And so it was an interesting conversation. But Gavin Newsom was the mayor at the time then, so you can see it's going back in time. CHAD: [laughs] JAY: But my journey then sort of said, hey, let's continue building data standards and doing good work. And I was recognized by the mayoral campaigns that were running. And so they wanted to sort of say, "Hey, we need somebody in innovation in the mayor's office." So I got recruited into that role, the first of its kind in San Francisco and in the U.S. So it was just a great opportunity to really help define and set a foundation for what does civic innovation mean? What does that look like? And we had a small office, and we did some really interesting work at the nexus of collaboration. That's really what I think is what we tried to do is make government more permeable, more accessible for people who are driving innovation in their communities to be able to participate in government. Mid-roll Ad I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U. CHAD: If someone's interested, how might they get involved in contributing to the public sector? JAY: I think there's a couple of different ways. So one way, Chad, is that governments are often putting a lot of data out there. There has been an open data movement that we had led, and it's now a national global movement. So you can find data, and you can create a data product around that and giving more insight into visibility and into issues. You can volunteer with a specific department. They're looking for those skill sets, so you can do that. You can also look for digital services offices. So those are becoming much more commonplace in governments if that's your thing. There are definitely ways to raise your hand and try to contribute. Folks are always looking for it. And if you don't see that opportunity, make that opportunity happen. Reach out to your council member. Reach out to a department head and say, "Hey, I've got this great superpower. I want to help you do better." And I guarantee they will listen because they're often strapped for resources. CHAD: How do you know when you should pursue a more general product that might be useful to governments versus like, oh, if I could get in there and contribute? How do you make that distinction in your mind? JAY: Well, I don't think there needs to be. So you can come in and have maybe a frame of hey, let me help my local government. And you might find opportunities while you're working there. They're using Microsoft Word and Excel to do something that really should be productized so you can think about it from that frame. Or you might have built a product for an adjacent market or for another need and say, "Hey, is there an opportunity to actually reframe this product that I have in the government context?" It might be a content management system. It might be a lot of different products can be reframed in that context. So the way that we actually became a product company from a non-profit was just doing that. We got invited to bring our methodology of agile procurement. And so we had in the back of our mind this idea that I bet if we go there, it's going to be kind of dusty. There's going to be a lot of broken tools, and that was the case. They were using 40-year old technology to manage sometimes billions of dollars of purchasing. And so we saw something that you normally wouldn't have that vantage point by really collaborating and working with them. And that led to product ideas, and that we were able to co-design and co-develop that with our partner governments. And then something that I think is also unique is that they're often eager to work with you because they don't get that opportunity often to work with vendors and folks who can conjure magic in their minds, that they have a vision or idea. And you can come back in a week or a month, and you might have a working product, not just wireframes. And for them, that ability to move so quickly they haven't seen that before. And I saw that firsthand in bringing startups and governments together, the velocity and speed that startups can work with is so different. We all know that. But when they see that, they get excited. They want to work with them. They want to lean into it and figure out, hey, can I give you data? Can I give you other ways to better understand the space? Because no one's cared about this space before. So there's often a willingness to grab a hold of anyone who can actually help them solve their problems. But you have to listen, and you have to come in humble. And I'll share a story here. I created a program called Civic Bridge that brought in pro bono services from big companies like Google and McKinsey, and many others. And some folks from Google came in, and they were sharing how they have to serve everybody. Their product is really ubiquitous and has to serve everybody. They quickly got reminded that government has to serve everybody, people who don't have technology, people who aren't online, people who don't have English as their first language, and people with different disabilities. All of them are constituents. And so technology is one way to reach people. But you have to think broadly about how do you make that service or what you're offering accessible to everybody? And I think that was a humbling experience for the folks there at the table. But what I loved about that program is really this cross-pollination and also breaking down stereotypes in both directions that people sometimes have in the public sector of private sector folks because they often don't hop back and forth. If you're a public sector person, you're often in the public sector. And so being able to actually see that they're not just a bunch of capitalists, [laughs] that they're your neighbor, that these are people who do care about the community, and they're making an impact in a different way. And vice versa, that there are so many talented people in government. And the problems seem simple or seem simple to solve on the outside, but they're often wicked problems or just have a lot of complexity to try to solve. So it's great to be able to have that empathy on both sides. CHAD: Yeah, that's maybe one thing. Are there other things that you would point out that are different when creating and shaping products for the public sector versus the private products? JAY: Yeah, I think that idea of being inclusive is really important. The other one is around...and this is, I think, true even in the private sector but more so in the public sector because of the demographics that you're working with. The demographics are folks who are closer to retirement. They are not digital natives. So when you're building products, you really need to leverage mental models and use that as a way to bring them into a new experience or a new tool. And as an example, there are obviously a lot of government forms that you see, right? CHAD: Mm-hmm. JAY: And I think as a technologist or a product person, you might say, hey, let's move away from Microsoft Word or Adobe PDF or whatever you're using. We have this thing called HTML, and we can bring this online and have all these beautiful affordances. Well, that's really hard for those folks to wrap their heads around and move from something they may have been using for 20, 30 years. And so maybe that first step is not that; maybe it's online fillable PDFs that you can actually store the data in a database and shift that back. And maybe that allows them to actually move more quickly because there's less resistance both internally and for the public as well. And so we've seen that time and time again, is that hey, is there a way to make that shift into a new paradigm but do it in such a way that there's a clear connection point? And then maybe the next step after that is, yeah, we need to make sure this is mobile-ready. Let's actually make that into a responsive design and move away from that PDF. And that's something that we've learned in our own product that, hey, we need to understand deeply the products and tools that they're using today. And how do we draw those parallels and bring them into the current modern set of technologies that we're offering? So it's not always easy, but it's something that we found a lot of success leveraging those mental models. CHAD: Are there other things that you might call out as things you got to keep in mind? JAY: Well, security is often, you know, we see that everywhere with SolarWinds, et cetera. I think there's just a deeper concern of supply chain attacks, ransomware, et cetera. So you're seeing, I think across the board in enterprise as well but in government even more so really focusing on that. And I think the challenge for folks who are building products is how do you find that balance when you have to make sure that you're NIST-certified and all of the SOC 2, et cetera? How do you build a great product that is accessible that doesn't make you go through a bunch of hoops to try to get access to it? And it's not easy. So that adds a layer of complexity trying to build that out. And, Chad, I'm sure you've worked with a lot of folks who have thought about government or may have had some success with it. So it might be interesting to hear from you if there are certain patterns or product sensibilities that you've seen that have been successfully applied in the public sector realm. CHAD: Well, I think you're right about that inherent complexity or that the bar is pretty high in order to have a product which is accessible and secure. If you're building a product for consumers, you can do some of that stuff iteratively. It can be difficult to work in an agile, iterative way in a highly regulated space. And so there's maybe not even one set way that you do that. It might be different for the space that you operate in. But it is important to take a step back and say, what can we do iteratively, or what can we leave off right now because we have to do this other thing? And those will be different for every product. And I see the real mistake being not taking that step back and not really being thoughtful about how you're going to do that in the complex, highly regulated space. And this is true for healthcare and finance as well. There are certain things you've got to do. And really, you have to approach it pretty thoughtfully in order to make sure you can still work and not just default to doing everything agile. We have this concept of like the 80-20 rule, and that is sometimes really difficult to do in the public space, right? JAY: I think you're absolutely right. And I think people recognize that highly regulated markets or industries are tough to crack. And I think you're absolutely right, Chad, that you have to find that entry point where maybe you can come in and the regulations are lower for that problem that you're solving initially. And use that as a place to land and then better understand where you fit into the overall workflow. And you're able to go upstream and downstream from there. And that's a lot of what we've seen success with these young startups, and the work we're doing will come in where there's maybe not so much regulations and provide value there, build trust, and then look at the broader ecosystem or processes to say, "Hey, where can we add more value?" Yes, it might be highly regulated. But we now have a better understanding, more resources, and customers to help us educate climbing that mountain together. But yeah, I want to make sure that...the flip side of all this...so if I were listening, I'd say, "Well, it sounds like the public sector is really tough," [laughter] and it is, but it's also truly rewarding. I think being able to know that you're able to help at the scale that the government does its work is really, really rewarding. One of the founders that we helped get her first product was to help foster kids, and that foster process that we've probably all heard is really, really tough. And they brought that online, and they went from one city...they're in so many different states now serving so many people across the U.S., and they're doing really well. They're, I think, Series B or C. And it's amazing. But it took that one government to take a chance and to be able to bring all this value. So that's something that excites me is the level of impact is so significant. CHAD: On that note, you started the conversation saying that procurement was the area where you felt like you could have an impact. Do you see expanding beyond that in the future, or is that not on your roadmap? JAY: I think we have a lot to chew on. But like a lot of product folks, we've got ideas that are further out. What I'm seeing in the government space when we talk about digital transformation...in the government context, you're often talking about PDFs and Microsoft Word documents, et cetera. So I think for us, we're really excited about is there a new way to think about documents in a way that works for governments? They're used to Microsoft Word. But is there more that can be done there to create more affordances, to create more powers that they just don't have today? And they're using Post-it Notes or whatever it might be to try to address those shortcomings. CHAD: Everything is going to be marked down in GitHub eventually. [laughter] JAY: Yes, we do need to introduce Markdown or just plain text, maybe. Why are these contracts locked up in Microsoft Word? Yeah, that's something that's a pet peeve of mine as well. I spend a lot of time in open data. And let's not use proprietary formats. Let's use something that folks understand. But the world is changing, which is great. We're seeing more governments using JSON. And one of the things that I'll share is that when you're building a product for government, you do have to think about the data component because that data doesn't belong to you; you're really stewards. That data belongs to the government and its constituents. So that's a different way of thinking because often, private companies are trying to monetize the data that they're having. So you have to have a much more sort of a frame that you're a custodian. CHAD: I think that's one of the things that can get a little lost, whether it be bureaucracy or politics or whatever but this idea that there is a community here. It is the community in which you live. You said that what inspired you to get involved was wanting to contribute back to a city that you love. It's easy for that to get lost in everything. JAY: Yeah. And that's my call to action to your audiences. Sort of touching upon our earlier points in our conversation, find a way if you have that means, and ability, and interest to make your community better. It might be something just for your city, or it might be something bigger. And I've seen so many people have good ideas. But to your point, how do you actually convert that good idea into something that's valuable and used by the community? And hopefully, this conversation is helping people and inspiring them to raise their hands and knock on the door. I think you'll see folks on the other side giving you a warm reception. They're very hungry and eager for people who have the capabilities of product and engineering and that type of talent to come to the table and help them. CHAD: That's great. If folks want to get in touch with you or find out more about City Innovate or STIR, too, where are the places where they can do that? JAY: They can go to our website cityinnovate.com. They can also go...I've got my own personal website, jaynath.com. And I'm very open. I have been since my days in public service. I'm still very accessible, maybe not as responsive as I used to be, just with all that work of being a founder. But if you're interested in this space, I always want to give back because we need great people with great talent working in the public sector, whether it's for government or within government or building a product for government. CHAD: Awesome. Jay, thanks very much for stopping by and sharing with us. JAY: Thank you so much, Chad, for the opportunity to share the work that we're doing. CHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Jay Nath.

My guest on this episode is music industry veteran, Jay Gilbert. Jay wears a lot of hats. He's a musician, photographer, marketer, speaker, and music executive. Jay has worked as a creative consultant to many record companies and artists. He hosts The Music Biz Weekly Podcast, is a Co-founder of Label Logic, and runs the weekly music newsletter Your Morning Coffee.Label Logic helps artists, managers, and labels grow their audience and optimize their presence across all platforms. Jay's newsletter is curated to give a weekly snapshot of the new music business. It's everything you need to know, delivered to your inbox every Friday morning.I talk with Jay about his shift to being a content creator. We talk about life as a musician, working in the music industry, and being a photographer. We also talk about his management company, and his advice for creators wanting to build their audience. Jay also shares some behind the scenes stories, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Simple hacks to grow your newsletter Defining and reaching your target audience Low-budget tricks to instantly add new subscribers Jay's #1 metric for becoming a successful creator Links & Resources ConvertKit Ben Barnes People Jeff Moscow Travis Tritt Ali Abdaal ConvertKit's Creator Sessions Music Connect (MRC) Chartmetric Viberate Soundcharts Pollstar Cherie Hu Amber Horsburgh Glenn Peoples Bobby Owsinski Bruce Houghton Hypebot Sound & Vision Music Technology Policy Nancy Wilson Roblox Jay Gilbert's Links Follow Jay on Twitter Your Morning Coffee newsletter Ben Barnes 11:11 on People.com JayGilbert.net Label Logic The Music Biz Weekly Podcast Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Jay:The harder I work, the luckier I get. You make your own luck. You see these people, and you're like, “Wow, that guy just blew up on TikTok or, Twitch, or on Spotify, or Apple Music!” Sometimes that happens. Not very often, and it usually it's a lot of hard work.[00:00:26] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to Jay Gilbert. Jay's a music industry veteran. He's been at it for a very long time. What I love is that he's also made this shift into being a content creator, as well as being a musician and a photographer. So many incredible things. He's got this newsletter about the music industry called Your Morning Coffee, and he's grown into over 15,000 subscribers.It's the thing that everyone in the music industry is reading every Friday morning. We talk about how he grew that, his passion for the music industry, how the industry has shifted, what's working, what's not. He also runs a management company called Label Logic where they're partnering with, artists and managers, and doing these album releases, and so much else.He's got all these behind the scenes stories, and a lot of advice that is not only for the music industry, but also for any creator looking to build an audience, and endure long enough to get noticed, and to build a brand and everything else. It's really good towards the end.I also sneak in some selfish questions about what would he do to grow ConvertKit; what's his advice for ConvertKit entering the music industry.Jay, welcome to the show.[00:01:39] Jay:Hey, thanks for having me, Nathan. Good morning.[00:01:41] Nathan:Good morning.We'll dive into some of your background, what you're working on now, but you actually had a pretty big project launch today.What did you launch today?[00:01:54] Jay:Well, when you launch a big project, sometimes it's like a wedding. You have all this planning, planning, planning, and then boom, there it is. It was pretty exciting this morning. We've had to keep quiet about this project. It's Ben Barnes, who is a pretty famous actor, but most people don't know he's a brilliant singer songwriter and pianist.We've recorded this really great record. We've got some amazing videos, given his relationships in that area. They're quite special. We launched a window of exclusivity this morning with People Magazine.So, if you go to People.com, you'll see. the video is debuting. It's pretty special, and we're really excited about it. It gets released tomorrow. The song's called 11:11, by Ben Barnes. It's pretty cool. I think you'll dig it.[00:02:53] Nathan:Nice. Yeah. If anyone doesn't recognize the name, Ben Barnes, he plays Prince Caspian. I've been a fan of the Narnia series and all that for a long time. I think my kids actually just rewatched Prince Caspian two weeks ago.[00:03:09] Jay:Have you seen shadow and bone yet?You got to check out shadow and bone. My, my wife and I binged watched it. And he's, he's brilliant in that, but it's a really cool series.[00:03:21] Nathan:Nice. Okay. So maybe with that, of like a snapshot of, of what you just launched, Let's talk about, a little bit about, logic[00:03:32] Jay:Sure.[00:03:33] Nathan:You know, what types of projects you do. And then we can go back to like the road to get.[00:03:38] Jay:Yeah, well, Label Logic was born out of my partner, Jeff Moscow, and I working in the major label ecosystem for years and years. And we finally got to a point where we were meeting one day for coffee and said, you know, we started our own.So we both worked at universal for a long time. He was there 20 years.I was there 18 years. I worked at Warner music, for five years managing Amazon's business for we at ADA, globally, which was fantastic. but we decided to do our own things. It's about seven years ago, give or take,[00:04:16] Nathan:Yeah.[00:04:17] Jay:We started talking to. Some clients that we had at universal and we sort of became the label infrastructure for some management companies.One of our long-term clients and friends is doc McGee, who you might know, manages kiss. And he managed, you know, Motley, Crue and Bon Jovi and Diana Ross and the Supremes. Anyway, doc is a mentor, a friend and a client. And we came in and one of our first projects was working with him and his stable of artists.And what was exciting about that is that you'd have some artists that were new developing artists. They're never played live before all the way to people filling up arenas. And so the release cycles would change out and it was very dynamic and very exciting. So. That's what Label Logic is all about. We typically are sort of the label infrastructure, for managers, some artists, you know, we also work with some labels and distributors.I think one of our most exciting projects was taking and creating this thing called resilience music Alliance, with the principals there and they signed the artists. We did, you know, the marketing and digital strategy and help them get all the planes flying in formation. And w you know, we won a Grammy last year, so it was really exciting just going from zero to 60, you know, just building something with your own two hands.[00:05:46] Nathan:Yeah. So what is the, for someone who's outside the music industry and they're like this. Just magic. Somehow you find artists and then somehow that goes all the way through to your album releases. When he grabbed me, things like that, like, what are the specific things that, that you're helping out on and playing in?What, what's your role there?[00:06:06] Jay:Yeah, good question. It really is the unsexy nuts and bolts things about setting up a release, everything from securing ISRC codes to shooting the album cover to making sure the, the album is recorded and delivered on time. It's all the creative surrounding it. You know, all of the banners and videos and press release and bio, and there's so much of this to do.That we organize it all. And then we help, excuse me with partners. You may need a publicist. You may need somebody to work sync licensing. You may need somebody for March, right? There are all these different things that you need to do. And we basically, we like to say that we're planners, but we're also problem solvers because every single project is different and has different needs.We recently launched a new album by Travis Tritt. Fantastic record. His team is button. They are experienced. So we took on really more of a, more of a planning role putting together the marketing plans. But then we have some artists that have never released music before. So it's a little more handholding, you know, all those certain things, because it's not about gaming the system today.It's really more about optimization. People always come to us and they say, well, I got to get on this plane. or I want my YouTube numbers to be up and we have t-shirts printed that say a playlist is not a marketing plan, right. Because our playlist important. Sure. They are, but that's down the road.There's so much to do before that. And really when I talk about optimization, when it comes to YouTube or DSPs like Spotify, apple music, Pandora, Deezer, it's not about gaming the system. It's about optimum. Right. And when you do that optimization, whether it's with your website, DSPs, press, any of that good things typically happen.[00:08:02] Nathan:What's an example of some of that optimization that, works rather than, you know, maybe what people are latching onto is is a magic bullet.[00:08:12] Jay:Yeah, couple of obvious ones. Let's take YouTube and Spotify, Spotify, because you can do more with Spotify than any other DSP. As far as you can change out your image, your banner image, your, your avatar, your artist image. You can add, I think 140 images. to your profile, you can put your social links, you can put your bio, there's, all these things that you can do that you can't do.Other places, not all of them.[00:08:38] Nathan:Yeah.[00:08:38] Jay:So, you know, you'd be surprised how many times we'll go look at somebody's Spotify profile and it's an old image and there's somebody in the photo that's not even in the band anymore, or it's just, it's just dated. And you look at the bio and it's, it's dated one of the first places we look, is someone's Spotify profile.Is it updated? YouTube is a really great example. Optimizing for YouTube is so easy and yet a lot of artists miss it. YouTube is not just a place to go drop your music. YouTube is something that, you know, through their community, through your, your artist page. So many things that you can do with that, the common mistakes we see is an obvious one.You know, the name of the videos should be artists titled. Artists title version, and they're mixed up and they're all over the place you want to optimize for that search, right? You want to, for example, the thumbnail, sometimes you go in and look at people's videos and there's literally a picture of somebody blinking is the cover of the video.[00:09:44] Nathan:Right. Cause this is what will, what YouTube selected randomly.[00:09:47] Jay:Yeah. And, and as you know, you can, they'll give you like three or four choices and you can pick one of those, but you can upload any image you want to be on though. And so we have actually a deck that we put together on YouTube and we show these examples of like, here's Lizzo and look at this. It's perfect.It's a beautiful photo of her. And it's, and then you look at the description, you know, is there a smart URL in there? You know, so. I don't recommend people put Spotify, apple, Pandora, Deezer, Amazon music, just put a smart URL in there. Have somebody click on that and then they can choose the platform, whether it was.Downloads, probably not physical, digital, YouTube website, all of that stuff. It's so easy to do. And then also in that description, anything that somebody might care about, who, who shot it, who produced it? Show me the lyrics, you know, give me put all that information in there. So it's, it's searchable. there that's, those are a couple of simple examples of optimization.[00:10:44] Nathan:Yeah. You know, it's interesting. one of the earlier guests that have the show, his name's Ali doll, and he's a YouTuber and he's got 2 million subscribers who's channel and he's just built this incredible, business. And I always think about YouTube as like him optimizing, you know, video like thumbnails and all of those details.Like obviously Lizzo is doing the same thing or really her team is doing that. Right. But it's, it's the exact same. game just in two different industries.[00:11:13] Jay:Yeah, it is. And another way to optimize YouTube, for example, and you can watch what you know, Justin Bieber's doing, and you can learn a lot from those things. one of my favorite writers and marketers is Amber Horsburgh and she did kind of a breakdown of. Some of these marketing campaigns, including Justin Bieber.And one of the things that you see is something we stress all the time. YouTube optimization. You don't just post your concept video or whatever your music video, you still have like five videos, six videos, meaning, you know, you want to have that concept video, but you also may want to lyric video. You may want a stripped down video.You may want a live video, right? there's so many like a pseudo video. It goes by a bunch of different names, but I know you've seen these where it's just the album art. And the audio bed. And sometimes people look at those and go, well, why that's not a video? Why is that on YouTube? Well, that's because YouTube is the number one destination to listen to music.It's not Spotify. Right? It's, it's YouTube people create playlists from those, you know? so it's really important to. Optimized for all of these platforms. And that, that means socials, you know, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, as well as the DSPs, as well as all of these. And again, it's not gaming the system.The problem we run into sometimes is people will come to us and they'll say, oh, well, you know, I, I bought these spins or I bought these lights. Well, now you're in trouble because number one, you can get pulled off of Spotify, right? in January 750,000 tracks were pulled off of Spotify for using bots and spin farms.Right. So[00:13:05] Nathan:Quickly,[00:13:06] Jay:Very careful[00:13:07] Nathan:Someone spinning up a whole bunch of computers and bots to go listen to the song on Spotify to be like, look, I now have a million plays.[00:13:17] Jay:Right?[00:13:18] Nathan:Um[00:13:18] Jay:Yeah. But they're not real, right.[00:13:20] Nathan:Yeah. Okay. I I've definitely seen that on Instagram, Twitter. But like, yeah, it makes sense that, that it exists on[00:13:28] Jay:Yeah[00:13:29] Nathan:First thing that you look at when, when I, like, when we're looking to book an artist for a creator sessions or, or some, one of our other projects, you know, you're, you're, it's that first source of credibility of like, oh, wow.That has two to 2 million plays this. Person's getting a lot of traction.[00:13:44] Jay:But what we look at instead of looking at those numbers, we look at engagement and when you look at engagement, sometimes you see the audience grow and that's going up, up, up. But if you don't see the engagement growing along with it, Then you know, that those aren't real people, because when you use bots and spin farms to Jack up these numbers, yes, it's dangerous because it can get you in trouble, but it screws with all of your, data, which is so important, right?The, what you really want. is Engagement. You want people to like, yeah, you want people to follow, but you want people to listen, share comment. That's real engagement, man. You get that. Uh that's that's the prize.[00:14:29] Nathan:Yeah. So let's go back. as you're getting into music, what, like, in the, in the early days, what was the hook for you? What, what brought you to the whole industry?[00:14:39] Jay:Oh, my gosh. Well, my, my family's musical, you know, my brother, you know, he's a Writer record producer, graphic design artists. my mom played piano. My grandfather played sax and big band. You know, I started a little high school band and ended up, you know, touring in bands and playing, writing, recording. So I kind of got to know how the sausage was made and, and I loved working in record stores.I worked for an indie record store. I worked for tower records for five years. There's so much fun.Um and[00:15:08] Nathan:Been in the industry.[00:15:09] Jay:Yeah, I've always been in music and, working at universal was just such a joy. learned so much. yeah, I've always been surrounded by, by music ever since I was little kid.[00:15:21] Nathan:What's something as a,[00:15:24] Jay:Oh[00:15:25] Nathan:If you're talking to an outsider, maybe a common misconception they have, know, someone who's a fan of music then you're like, oh, this is actually how it works that you find yourself explaining or,[00:15:37] Jay:Oh, my gosh, we could talk for days.[00:15:39] Nathan:Yeah.[00:15:40] Jay:I wish people understood that the harder I work, the luckier, I get, you make your own luck. You know, you see these people and you're like, wow, that guy just blew up on TikTok or, you know, Twitch or on Spotify or apple music. Sometimes that happens not very often.And it usually it's a lot of hard work, you know? I asked an ANR person before the. You know, how do you choose who you signed to your label today with all of this data? And he said the same way. I always do. I look for that line up around the block for people to see him play, right? So it's, it's a new music business and we can now see with all this data what's going on.But I think the common misconception is there's a similar. There isn't a silver bullet, you know, it's, it's a lot of hard work and it's a lot of finding your tribe. And I say that a lot because you need to find your audience. I talk to people all the time about finding that audience and they think they know who their audience is.If you talk to any manager, artists, they, they they'll have a sense. Like, well, my demo, my artists or my, my fan base, I mean is 25 year old. But there are three audiences, right? There's one sales streams and downloads. So the commerce side to the butts in the seats. So when you're touring, who's actually out in the crowd, right.And then three, you know, kind of the social side of it. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, those three audiences, rarely aligned completely. And there's always something to learn. I was talking to an artist recently who thought that. Their crowd was 25 year old, females, because that's who they saw in the crowd.But if you look at the other data, that's not who's quote unquote consuming their music. So there are a lot of misconceptions, but, I heard this really great line about data and analytics. It's like a lamppost. You can use it to aluminate or you can use it to lean on. And most people use it to lean on, like, see, I told you that's, that's what I thought my data is.But really, if you go in and look at all this, analytics, you'll find that there's always something you can learn in there about your audience and how to reach your audience.[00:17:57] Nathan:I like that because I catch myself doing that of like, Let me go dig for the data that proves the point thatI already my existing worldview and that they were having that debate. Yeah. See, this is what proves it. And you can go back and, and[00:18:14] Jay:Right[00:18:15] Nathan:The data say almost whatever you want.If you come at it with that[00:18:18] Jay:Yeah, absolutely. And today there's so many great places to find data like real great data. Like for example, you know, it used to be called SoundScan right now. It's called MRC connect. Same thing. You can get real numbers for sales, streams, and downloads. That is so helpful. And you can see data from previous releases and kind of get a sense of that.There are these great platforms like chart, metric and vibrate and sound charts, where you can go in and see what playlist was I added to which ones, where I dropped off of what position was I in? How many times was it skipped? You know, there's so many great data platforms out there, but it's almost like there's too much, you know, you need to kind of focus on what, what do you want to do?You know, some people want to route a tour, So that's really easy. You can kind of see what markets you're over-performing in. You can download data from Pollstar and see if you played in those markets before, you know, how did you perform? So we're really big on data, but you kind of have to look at it carefully and decide what you're trying to learn from it.If that makes sense.[00:19:30] Nathan:How do you think about the intersection, between the different platforms? Like, if you're actually say we're promoting it to her or, a new album release or something like that, what are you recommending as far as where artists build, you know, build their audience. and then, yeah. How do you think about the intersection when it actually comes time to drive?[00:19:49] Jay:Yeah. And that's, that's a great question because it's so different for every artist in every release, right? So you kind of have to look where, where is my. You know, they may, maybe they're still buying physical. Maybe you're a jazz artist and that's a, still a, an album format. So you want to look at Amazon.You want to look at places, indie retail, where people are buying the full album and they want to experience that way. then you look at maybe EDM or country, every kind of genre and mood has its own nuances. I think it's really important to find out who your audience is, what their behaviors are. And then a real simple thing is when it comes to social media, so many artists today, they have so many choices and it's not just writing and recording and touring.Now they got a post on socials and create videos and comment. I mean, it's so much, so what we tell people is take a step back. What are you killing? Yeah, right. And a lot of them it's Instagram, right? Some of them it's TikTok focus on that. You don't have to be all things to all people, you know, find out where that crowd is, where your audience is and really work that, and then kind of grow it from there.And hopefully you'll get to a point, like we were talking about Lizzo, where you have a team surrounding you that can attack all those different platforms.[00:21:16] Nathan:Yeah, think there's a tendency. I see this in founders and entrepreneurs and marketers, like all across the board. I've, we're so used to failing at things like trying things and failing. They like tried this didn't work and in order to continue to be a founder or a marketer and you have to try the next thing tried that didn't work tried that didn't work, this, it worked.[00:21:38] Jay:Yeah[00:21:39] Nathan:So then I tried this and it didn't work and this, and it didn't work. And you're like, hold on. But what about the thing that did work and, you know, we move on so quickly and we see like every case study of[00:21:49] Jay:Yeah. And it's so different per artists. So the thing that you just described as spot on, but let's say we did that for Ben Barnes. Well, our next artist, we got to start from scratch because the things that worked for Ben probably aren't going to work for Travis Tritt. There they're totally different animals.So I love trying things. I love trying new platforms and, you know, there are a handful of things that really work across everything. And so you kind of start with those in your marketing plan, like. Tools is bands in town. Now everybody knows bands in town. It's got like 55 million people have this app on their phone and it says, Hey, Nathan, you know, the accidentals are coming to your town in a couple of weeks and you're like, oh cool.And then you can buy your ticket and stuff. They look at your music library, but what a lot of people don't know is that you can go in there and look at how many people are attracting. Right. And usually it's thousands. You know, you look at these artists, they don't even know they have thousands of trackers and bands in town.Well, you can reach out to them for free and say, Hey, I've got a new release coming out. or I'm going to be in a, there's a tour and I'm going to be in your area. But what's really exciting about bands in town is that I can look at like competitive artists fan bases. So if I know that my artists. You know, then maybe there, they would appeal to the Chainsmokers crowd.I, for 5 cents an email, I can target them and say, Hey, you guys dig the chain smokers. You, you might dig this too. So there are a lot of little platforms like that, like you were talking about, which is so important. You got to try. All the time. And you know, as Paul Stanley said, the road to success, isn't from here to success.It's failure, failure, failure, failure, success.[00:23:37] Nathan:Yeah, for sure. Are there any trends going on in the music industry now that concern you things where like, as, as you've watched it develop, you're like, I'm not sure where this is headed and I'm not sure that it's going to be good for the artists. Good for the fans and any of those things.[00:23:51] Jay:Not a lot. I think it's, it's changed while we've been having this conversation. The music business is evolving so quickly and you know, I do a weekly podcast and newsletter for the music industry and we break down the stories every week and it's so fascinating to me. How quickly it's evolving. And, you know, for example, you see companies like hypnosis and primary wave and BMG buying up all of these rights.And you're wondering like, well, they're paying these huge multiples what's going on here. And some of these heritage artists are getting hundreds of millions of dollars. And then in the last couple of weeks, you've really seen these stories about interpolation. Coming out, meaning that instead of using a sample, they're just using the melody of a Olivia Newton, John or Taylor swift song in a new song.And it, no one's getting sued because they're crediting the writers and they're paying the publishing and you may find two or three interpolations in one song. Olivia Rodriguez recently, there's so many. Of these things that are evolving so quickly, TikTok, it just blows my mind sometimes how fast you can gain an audience there, but it's one of the hardest platforms to gain real engagement.So you can gain those numbers, but how do you hold onto them? It reminds me of some of these artists that are on these talent shows, you know, American idol, the voice America's got talent, whatever you got to grab that audience. Once they're off that show, you have to engage them quickly or it's gone. cause you'll have huge numbers from being on those shows.But if you don't engage with that crowd and keep them interested in, you'll still have those big numbers of YouTube subscribers and followers. But the engagement just drops right off the cliff. So as far as the trends that concern me, I think the biggest thing we touched on, you know, people who try to buy likes, follows spins.I just, I think that's horrible and it's so dangerous for their career. we always tell people. We manage 20 careers. you're, you're managing one yours. You need to take that really seriously. And, we, we advise against trying to game the system. I have a friend of mine who's really big in SEO search engine optimization and, he's very good at it.And he always tells me. These people come to me and they've messed with their website, for example, to get it to come up in search. And he laughs and he says, look, Google's got, Google has like 200 highly trained engineers working on this stuff. And you think you're going to trick them with your little, you know, metadata trick, you know, maybe for 10 minutes, but it's always best to have a plan, have a marketing plan.Optimize for everything. you do that and avoid some of these pitfalls. Yeah. Those are the things that concerned me. It's just people trying to, find a shortcut.[00:26:58] Nathan:Yeah, that makes sense. you dropped a bunch of things in there that I, I want to talk about and dive into, but maybe starting with the music back catalogs that are being purchased, those rights, I'm always super curious about things like that, because. You know, as a creator, you're working on things that feel like they're in the moment.And I have a few friends who are successful authors who are pretty prolific, like they'll write a book year, a book every other year. one friend said like, basically like putting out annuities where you have this, this thing and add you as you add to your catalog. It just. Let's say this book is going to sell $50,000 worth copies its long tail every year.Like clockwork, time you come out with a new one, it adds that there's another 50,000 a year, plus it gives it a little bump. And so you see creators who are these big spikes, and then that's kind of it. You also see creators who are continually adding to the back.[00:27:54] Jay:Yeah.[00:27:55] Nathan:Like explain more for anyone who doesn't understand on the music side, why these catalogs are so valuable and why, you know, people are paying[00:28:04] Jay:Yeah.[00:28:04] Nathan:Of millions, hundreds of[00:28:05] Jay:Yeah Well, it's just math at this point. What's happened is with streaming. Now there's some predictable. There's some planning involved. So if you have a catalog, you know, you look at like Stevie Nicks sold hers, or at least a big portion of it. And Bob Dylan, there's a predictability now that there wasn't before on how much revenue that's going to generate on, on two sides, one the publishing, right?For the, for the songwriters and then the master, you know, so with that predictability comes, some of them are just banging. You know, they come in there and they say, okay, this catalog is worth this much money. And this is how much it makes over a year. Let's say it makes a hundred thousand dollars a year.Well, we're going to pay you for 10 years or 20 years worth and cut you a check right now. So we call those multiples and some of these companies are paying super high multiples and almost jacking up the price. It's kind of a land grab in some respects. So. It really doesn't help a new developing artist a lot right now.But if you've co-written songs with people and you've got music out there, There, there is money to be had there. If you want that big payoff, some people are selling off their publishing. Some people are selling it off for a term. Some people are selling their masters off and it makes sense for somebody let's say Stevie Nicks, cause she's in her seventies.Now it's a state planning and she can, you know, get all of that money and help her family and whatever. So I'm not necessarily against. At all. but what I really love is watching how these companies are now going to exploit that catalog. And I mean that in the best possible way, exploited, how are they going to generate the right revenue?And that interpolations that I talked about a minute ago. That is one way, you know, there was a story last week, and they talked about primary wave having, you know, these writer's camp. And using their top 40 or 50 tracks that they have the rights to, and having these writers write songs surrounding those melodies.And again, those writers will be credited those writers and the publishers and all of that, but that's kind of the new trend too. So yeah[00:30:35] Nathan:Yeah that's fascinating. it'll be interesting to see how it keeps developing Another thing that you talked about a little bit is, uh your newsletter, which I want to get into, what, like so many people consume content, what was the thing that made you switch and say Hey, I want to be to be one of the, people on the creator side, commenting on the industry and building an audience[00:30:58] Jay:Yeah[00:30:58] Nathan:That's like, it feels like you've been more of a behind the scenes guy for a long time. And now there's a little bit of at least you're going to be a front of house for all the behind the scenes people.[00:31:11] Jay:Yeah, no, that's, that's a good point. I think what happened was I had left Warner music group and I was deciding do I want to start my own company. Do I want to go back working for a major? And I got this email from Sean Rakowski who used to be the head of sales for ADA. And all it was was about a dozen of.These songs and albums that he had found that were really good. And he was sharing it with a hundred people. So I called him up and I said, this is cool, but you know, why are you doing this? And he said, well, I'm kind of between jobs. I don't know where I'm going to go right now. And I just don't want people to forget me and the light bulb went on and I went, I'm going to do that.So I did something you're not supposed to do. And that is, I created an email and just basically sent it to a couple hundred people in my. my contacts, you're typically supposed to ask for permission, but I just decided, you know what, I'm just going to do this and what do I love Well I love music and technology.So I'll just do a recap, every week and what I knew at the time. was that People don't like to read. I love reading stories on technology and music, but not everybody does, but they want to know what's going on. So I put an image and then just a two, to three sentence blurb. So even if you don't read those top dozen stories in your morning coffee, you can read that little blurb and go, oh, okay.Well, this is going on. You know, here's some changes that here's some platforms that are coming up. This is what's going on with the music modernization act or NFTs or whatever. And. All of a sudden. It started to grow. And that little newsletter to a couple hundred people is now over 15,000 people and we have advertisers and now we have a weekly podcast, we've been doing for a year where we break down the stories.So I didn't have this grand plan of, I'm going to create this newsletter for the industry. And no, I just didn't want people to forget me while I was deciding. What my next career path was going to be, and it was a happy accident. I just stumbled into it. And then next thing you know, some of my favorite artists subscribed to it.Some of my favorite managers subscribed to it and they'll send me notes. What do you think about this? And then. The last thing I'll say on it is it wasn't intended for business. It wasn't intended for me to make money from, but what's happened is people will read your morning coffee and then they'll call me up and they'll go.I think I need to hire Label Logic to be my label infrastructure for this. And so it's brought us business, but that, wasn't what it was intended for originally.[00:33:43] Nathan:Yeah, it's fascinating how that worked. Cause you, you position yourself as the expert, the person with the pulse on the industry I mean, it's not even like a deliberate thing. You don't have to say that you just. Are the[00:33:56] Jay:Cool[00:33:57] Nathan:Sent, like sending out the content and people are like great, thanks for doing that.So I didn't have to go compile it from different sources. And, and you find that you have your own platform.[00:34:07] Jay:Yeah[00:34:07] Nathan:Some, what are some of the things that worked as far as, growing it, maybe deliberate things that you put in, beyond the, organic growth and sharing[00:34:17] Jay:Yeah, I think that, the thing that really helped us is really like, if you're a wedding photographer or a real estate agent, all of your business practically is word of mouth. And a lot of the growth that we have for your morning coffee comes from people just getting it, and forwarding it to their staff, you know, I'm saying, Hey, have you seen this?And that's where we've seen that growth.I think the things that I did that really. helped Keeping it to those blurbs and not trying and having that image. People are very visual. I've seen other newsletters that are just a mountain of text.[00:34:53] Nathan:Yeah[00:34:53] Jay:Not many people are going to dig through that. So I wanted to make it.Very accessible to somebody who's really busy at an airport. They can just look at it on their device and and get a sense of what's going on. The other thing that, again, by accident, I started reaching out to some of these writers, like you had mentioned earlier, speaking with Sherry who, I reached out to Sherry, you know, I've had her on the podcast, we've had conversations.I have a great deal of respect for her in her writing people like, You know, Amber horsepower. I mentioned, Glen peoples, Bobby O Sinskey, you know, Bruce Hoten over at Hypebot. After a while I started developing these conversations in relationships and I would be on their Podcast. They would be on mine.I would write articles for Hypebot Hypebot would promote your morning coffee of the newsletter, a very symbiotic kind of relationship with all of these writers. And the level of debate and the level of communication has just enriched my life. Having these conversations with people, you know, like Amber and Glen peoples and saying, well, what do you think of this?I dunno, what do you think of this? You know, for example, I, I met this really smart young marketer, Maddie Elise, who runs her own company and she was doing some really great analysis on bots and spin farms. Like how can you tell if you've been bonded and we got into these conversations and she posted some really great articles online.I put them in your morning coffee. It's been a wild ride, but it's, it was unexpected that I would have these conversations.[00:36:36] Nathan:Well, It's amazing how Yeah. Like in any industry, Like working in sales, the music industry has all connections and relationships.[00:36:45] Jay:Yes[00:36:46] Nathan:Could spend forever people one on one Hey I'm I'm coming to your city I'm in LA I'm in Nashville I'm in Atlanta Like now we're in a you know like trying to get one connection into the next and coffee and everything else to try to build up that now. Or you can kind of take take a step back and say, all just going to start a newsletter and then get like, thousands and then people that follow it. And then[00:37:10] Jay:Yeah[00:37:11] Nathan:You would like really slowly be like working up relationships to get to the point that you've talked to is like oh, Hey, I wrote this thing.Would you mind throwing it in the newsletter And like,[00:37:22] Jay:Yeah[00:37:23] Nathan:Also come on on my podcast, let's chat. And it's just this shortcut to relationships and amazing.[00:37:27] Jay:Yes, absolutely. And I'm a big fan of networking, music business association conference, one of the best on the planet. You know, you go there. The, the great meetings are the ones, while you're waiting in line at Starbucks, you know, you meet all of these people. And it's then like at the last music business association conference, I was standing in line talking to some publicists.Well, publicists are so great because they're on the pulse of everything. There are people like, you know, over at shore fire or the great team at rock paper, scissors who matches technology and music in their publicity campaign. And now they're sending things to me. Hey, have you heard about this new platform?Hey, you might want to interview this person because they've got this new thing. And so it, it becomes this thing, but you had mentioned like sitting down and having coffee with people. That's what I did with Amber Horsburgh I've. I read some of her deep cuts, things that she has online. She has done marketing at a high level.My partner, Jeff and I have done marketing at a high level. We called her up, met at the one-on-one coffee shop and just had an amazing.Chat, as you know, when you sit down with somebody who's enthusiastic about the same things you are, whether it's music, sports, whatever, you can talk all day. Right. And I love meeting these people and that's kind of how, like the, your morning coffee Podcast.My, my cohost is Mike Etchart, who did sound envisioned radio. He and I can sit and talk for hours about. This, these stories. So every week we do the podcast, we record it Sunday morning at nine 30 and it goes live on Mondays. We talk for a half hour to an hour before we hit record. We just sit there and, oh my gosh.Did you see that documentary on 1971? No. Hey, have you heard that new record by, you know, Ben Barnes, whatever it is. And because we have such a passion for it. And I think that comes out in the newsletter. It's not a dry kind of thing. and the last thing I'll say on that is the other side, these relationships I've developed are like with attorneys who write stories.There's this one guy, Chris castle, who has a website called music technology policy. And I. You know, put some of his great articles in your morning coffee, cause they're really smart ass, you know, sassy stuff and had him on the podcast. And now I'll call him up from time to time, you know, like what do you think of this?And it's just, this whole kind of network is it's really.[00:40:02] Nathan:Yeah, that's amazing. Is there a favorite moment or something like that, where, uh or opportunity that the newsletter has created for you? Like, we talked about a lot of connections and stuff like that, but one where, you know, you're like, Oh wow, this is, this is a fantastic opportunity that wouldn't have come.If I hadn't built it.[00:40:20] Jay:Oh my gosh, so many of them, but I'll tell you, at a high level, getting to speak to people that I admire respect that that's thrilling. But one great example recently was for our one-year anniversary of the, your morning coffee Podcast. we had Nancy Wilson from heart on and did an hour long interview with her.Now I grew up in. I grew up on heart, Nancy and I shopped at the same record stores. I saw them play live many, many times, huge fan. so that was pretty cool and knowing her as well as I do her career, her music, all of that. Mike and I had an amazing, interview with her and that's something that we just wouldn't have had, without this via.[00:41:10] Nathan:Yeah, that, that kind of thing is so fun of like, almost getting to have a conversation, you know, as peers and all of that with someone that you're like[00:41:21] Jay:Yeah.[00:41:22] Nathan:However many years ago would be freaking out Right. now[00:41:25] Jay:Right. I was in the, I was in the crowd, right. Cheering along, and now we're having a conversation about things and that's probably the most thrilling part of your morning coffee. The newsletter and Podcast is the level of debate. The level of people that will call me and say, I disagreed with that piece.Or I'd like to write an op ed or, you know, Th that's pretty thrilling because look like we said, this music industry's changed while we've been on this call. So if you want to keep up with it, you can follow some of these great, writers. And, you know, you mentioned Sherry who, you know her, I subscribed to her Patrion.I love the research that she does. And I've learned so much from that. But if you don't want to read everything by all of these marketers, then there are. Vehicles like your morning coffee, where you get it for free every Friday, you just glance at it and get a sense of what's going on. And then if there's, there's something that really interests you, you click on it and you can read deeper.[00:42:28] Nathan:Yeah. Yep. I like that. Um what are some of the things that you're looking to do next for your morning coffee of how to, how to grow it further? What's sort of the milestone.[00:42:37] Jay:Yeah, we're I really want to grow it. and we're looking at, you know, networks that we could be a part of. we've got advertisers now, which is nice. you know, we're not going to get rich from it, but it's nice that we have, and we can pick and choose, you know, who those advertisers are. We're not going to advertise for baked beans.We have some really great digital music sponsors my goal. Two things. One, I really want to grow the audience. I'm thrilled with the growth that we've had. and the quality cause I use MailChimp. So I can go in there just like constant contact or any of these other great platforms. And I can see who's who's subscribing which ones they opening, you know, what are they clicking through?What device are they on? And I love it when people who I admire and respect are. And I want to grow that as well. So grow it, grow the quality of it and, you know, just continue to build that audience.[00:43:39] Nathan:Are there specific activities that you're thinking of to grow it where you're like, oh, this was working. So I'm going to do more of that, whether it's ads or promotions or, any of those things[00:43:49] Jay:Yeah, I, it sounds pedantic, but we always say you do more of what's working and less of what doesn't And I know that sounds silly, but we do that with every platform. You look at YouTube or you look at your socials and go, wow, that post really over-performed, Well do more of things like that. And I'm looking at like with your morning coffee, there are certain articles that I just know are going to get high clicks.People love lists. You know, here are the seven things that Nathan thinks you should do. People love bullet point lists, but I try not to, do the cheap applause thing, I could do the whole thing full of that, but there also has to be something in there for you to eat your vegetables.There has to be a little bit of analysis. You know, the one that comes out tomorrow, there's a breakdown of, you know, the first half of the year versus the first half of last year. Not everybody wants to dig into the data like that. So I try to make. it You know, balanced that way. the other thing I'd like to do is partner with.Other people, for example, one of the reasons I have such a high, you know, viewership is the folks over at Hypebot every week they put my newsletter and Podcast in their newsletter that goes out to a lot of people. so they're, a great partner for us. We love, we love HighSpot, but if I can get more people, you know, you're standing on the shoulders of giants, so to speak, I would love to have, the.Orchard Ingrooves ADA, you know, Warner music group, Group use your morning coffee and send that out to their artists, labels, and managers, that sort of thing. That would be the next step.[00:45:33] Nathan:Yeah, that. makes sense. like those partnerships end up being so big. And I've seen that with a lot of newsletters where they're doing cross-promotions or they're saying,[00:45:42] Jay:Yeah.[00:45:43] Nathan:Hey do a takeover Where, like,[00:45:47] Jay:Right.[00:45:48] Nathan:You know, Jay's writing the entire newsletter for us this week. If you want to follow more of what he does, you know, and you need to this newsletter swap or a bunch of things.[00:45:57] Jay:Yeah, those takeovers are really important. I did one last week with symphonic distribution, I did a little Instagram takeover and immediately had, hundreds of new subscribers to the newsletter. we always tell people there's two reasons why nobody is buying or streaming your new release.One is they've never heard. of you Two they've heard of you, but they didn't know it was out. Those are two things that you can correct with proper marketing, touring advertising, those types of things. And it's the same with the newsletter is I need to get it in front of people because, every week I get a note from somebody like, oh, I just discovered your podcast, or I just discovered your, newsletter.You know, and I don't have big budgets to advertise, you know, put it in billboard magazine or, whatever. but that's my goal.[00:46:54] Nathan:Yeah I like it. some of my favorite podcasts interviews are Witten. The host starts asking really selfish questions like[00:47:02] Jay:Okay[00:47:03] Nathan:Direct advice that they want. So I'm going to do that now. So uh ConvertKit right So we're creating a marketing platform, email marketing platform for creators where Uh like quick context We're 70 people on the team[00:47:19] Jay:Wow[00:47:19] Nathan:Year in revenue, in like mostly in the blogger podcast or newsletter space, but then the last year has been this push into, into music. So we've got a whole range of artists from Leon bridges to Tim McGraw. we bought, a platform called fan bridge, at the beginning of this year, but we're like new to the spaceAnd so coming in. What advice would you give either to, you know, ConvertKit or to any of these, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of other players who are, trying to come into the music industry, really serve artists, be good citizens of the community. Like what advice would you give as far as how to grow, How to get more artists on the platform and[00:48:02] Jay:That's a great question. I think the first thing you do is you collaborate and we tell people all the time, if, when we're taking an artist in to meet with a digital service provider or a platform you listen first and you say, How can we partner? How can we collaborate? Not what can you do for me? So some of the obvious things, right, would be, the music business association, right?Portion, her team over there are phenomenal. You have conversations with them, you sponsor their events, you get involved in their live streams and that community. Right. I think that's, that's kind of where you start, as you become. A partner, you know, you collaborate, people who, all these people that you mentioned that have these great, you know, newsletters, whether it's, you know, Sherry who, or Amber Horsburgh or, you know, Bobby, Osinski, all of these things.You, you reach out to them as you're doing you partner with them, you see, like, how can we collaborate together? How can we work together? How can I help you to grow your audience? And once you become. Part of that network, part of that community. Let me back up. my old boss used to tell me, everybody wants to give you advice.Nobody wants to give you a job. So when you go to somebody, don't ask them for something, right? And this isn't directed at you. This is at the larger audience. Don't go in and say, Hey, I need this. Can you do this? For me? People are busy, right? They've got a thousand emails that they're, they need to respond to.But if you ask somebody for their advice, they're like, well, hold on a second. What was that? You need my advice. I'll give you my advice. I found, and I speak at colleges all the time and I mentor and I have interns. And one of the things I tell college students all the time is find someone who's doing what you want to do.Whether it's be an engineer, producer, tour, agent, whatever, find the people that are doing it, reach out to them and say, Hey Nathan, I'm a college student. Can I just get 15 minutes of your time? Chat. I need your guidance. I need your advice on something nine times out of 10, they'll say. Sure, absolutely. And that's at your fingertips right now.And as a company and as a platform, you need to let this community know what problems of theirs are you going to. You know, not your capabilities, not like the business speak while we're a full service platform that, you know, these KPIs and blah, blah, blah. No, it's gotta be, we're going to help you grow your audience by doing this, we're gonna help you, spend less money on your marketing and advertising by doing this, we're going to help you put more butts in the seats by doing this.If you can solve their problems and communicate that. quickly and easily, that's a challenge. but joining all of these, like, like music business association, You know, and going to these panels, like at music tectonics and some of those, that's where those people live and breathe. And, and let me just tie it up in a bow by saying that one of the things we did over the pandemic was we formed this artist management collective and there's, I don't know, give or take 25 managers and on any given zoom call, we'll have probably half of that.We, we talk about what, what publicist are you using now? What video editor are using now, you know, do you use it? Who, who should I call for a tour agent for Americana, you know, and we, we help each other, but we also will bring somebody on from TikTok or bring somebody on from roadblocks and tell us about your platform.You know, w how can you help these artists managers? So that's a long-winded way of saying there's no silver bullet, but. Those relationships, those, those conversations, then that word of mouth will spread and that'll help you build your platform.[00:52:06] Nathan:Yeah Well, I mean, it's exactly what we've been talking about of relationships in the community That's what all of this comes down to and and you know podcasts are especially big for that right Because we have to have conversations like this, and that's what you've seen on, on your Podcast.[00:52:24] Jay:Yeah[00:52:24] Nathan:Makes me wonder, do you think If you're talking to a newsletter creator?Who doesn't have a Podcast. What's the, message that you would say to them of, you know, you're like, Yeah. the Podcast has been good because of these things. Or are you like, what are you doing? Like start[00:52:43] Jay:Yeah[00:52:44] Nathan:Newsletter, go hand in hand. He got us started both. What, what do you think?[00:52:47] Jay:It depends. I think here's the thing. I was reading this article the other day, that the average Podcast, this is average, right? There's 850,000 podcasts out there, but the average one is seven episodes long. That's it. And reaches about 175. people That's an average thing. I mean, yeah. You've got the New York times daily that has a staff of 75 people and it's crazy.And then you've got the Joe Rogans of the world that have these huge audiences, but that's the outlier. That's an anomaly. So I tell people are you really in this? Do you really want to do this? And do you enjoy doing it? So I do, two to three podcasts. every week And I love it. I absolutely love the conversations.It's something. I have a passion for most of the newsletters that I read. There is a Podcast, you know, Sherry who has a podcast, Amber Horsburgh has a podcast. Mike Warner, has a great podcast. Then you look at how often do you want to do it? You know, like your morning coffee is every single week music biz, weekly that I co-host is every single week.You may not have the time to do that. So maybe you do one every two weeks or one every month. I'm a big fan of podcasts. I think that people go for walks, they exercise, they travel, they commute. They do a lot of things where they couldn't necessarily read a newsletter. And this is kind of, you're reading the newsletter to them.So it's so easy to get syndicated. But the only thing I would suggest for somebody who's going to start that is stand on the shoulders of giants with us. We partnered with Hypebot So immediately out of the gate, we've got an audience. We didn't have to start from zero So if you can partner with a brand or partner with another outlet to grow your audience, that's the way to go.[00:54:44] Nathan:Yeah. Yep. I like that. Some of that you said to kind of touched on the idea of longevity, you know, of the average Podcast being seven episodes long. sad, but not surprising, like[00:54:56] Jay:Yeah,[00:54:57] Nathan:What's your message to, creators about longevity. And it's both the artists you're working with, you're giving advice to those college students who hit you up for the 15 minutes of advice all the way through to those building an audience online, in a newsletter type environment[00:55:14] Jay:Yeah. That's a great question. I think the bottom line is you need to find what lights you. up And I tell, not just college students, but I tell professionals this all the time. What is that thing that you wake up in the morning and you just can't wait to do, and you'd do it for free. If you could, is it photography?Is it, it engineering or being a, you know, a manager, whatever it is. There's some There're things that are Personal to you that you love to do. And I always tell people, you have to do more of that. The money will come, but you have to add value first and then the money comes. You don't go looking for the money.That's a common mistake. A lot of people make, I I started your morning coffee without any expectation of any business, money, ads, anything, and it's just been a joy. And I look forward to doing. it Every single week, I've got it, like 90% ready to go. Cause it goes out at 4:00 AM on Friday. So tomorrow, I'll be up with my coffee and I'll hit that.Send button to those lists. that's not work to me. That's I can't wait to do that. And then Sunday morning, Mike Etchart and I are going to record the podcast. I can't wait to do that. So if you can find something in your jobI love coaching. I love teaching. I love working with developing artists and showing them what's worked in the past what hasn't workedand to your point earlier, trying a lot of different things See, see what's working. and What's not, you know, I think that's key because so many people are chasing the dollars and they're miserable. You know, find what lights you up.[00:56:53] Nathan:Yeah, cause chasing the dollars, especially cause they tend to take a long time to come. Any creative business is slow going. So, if you're looking at the dollars as the metric that's going to keep you going, then you are going to end up giving up after the seven episodes.[00:57:12] Jay:Yeah.[00:57:13] Nathan:Something in that[00:57:15] Jay:Yeah.[00:57:16] Nathan:I realized, we should start to wrap up, but I didn't even ask you about photography. That's a huge part of who you are as a creator. We don't have time to get into it a lot, but I just love to hear how photography intersects with the rest of your creative work.[00:57:31] Jay:I've been shooting since I was a teenager. What happened was I went to a concert. I shot it and the images didn't turn out well at all. And that put me on this quest of “Why don't my photos look like the ones in the magazine?”[00:57:45] Nathan:Yeah.[00:57:46] Jay:I got my own darkroom, started reading books. Long story short, I've been doing photography my entire life. I have a photo studio here. I've shot album covers from the Temptations, and John Wayne, and Rick Springfield, and many, many others. I absolutely love it. It's my creative outlet. I can go in on the weekends, shut the door, turn off the phone.My partner, Chris Schmidt and I, we do these shoots and we absolutely love it. It's also intersected with the business. So, photo shoots for clients. We've done videos for clients. It's a labor of love. It's like you find what lights you up. Photography lights me up. I would do it for free if I could.I absolutely love shooting live shows. I love shooting studio shoots. If you check out JayGilbert.net, you can see some of my work over the years. You'll see photos from shooting Van Halen in 1978, all the way to shooting stuff last week with the immediate family.So, thank you for bringing that up. I certainly have a passion for it, and I hope that your viewers and listeners know what their passion is. Even if they can't do it for a living, continue to do it. Life is short.[00:58:59] Nathan:Yeah, I love it. Well, I had a great time going through your whole collection over the years.[00:59:06] Jay:Thank you.[00:59:07] Nathan:There's some that are really, really fun.[00:59:10] Jay:Thank you.[00:59:11] Nathan:Listeners should definitely check that out. Where else should people go to subscribe to the newsletter? Listen to the podcast? All of that?[00:59:17] Jay:It's the easiest URL on the planet. It's YourMorning.coffee. You can sign up for the newsletter. It's free. You can sign up for the podcast. It's free. If you ever want to dig deeper into what Label Logic's all about, it's Label-Logic.net. It might be kind of fun just to look through there.Jeff and I have been doing this for decades, so you'll see some of your favorite artists that we've done some campaigns with.[00:59:48] Nathan:Yeah that's good.Well Jay, thanks so much.[00:59:51] Jay:Yeah, it's my pleasure, Nathan. Thanks for having me.

If you can dream it, it can happen! Jay Leboeuf from Descript joins Anne to discuss the benefits of having a voice clone and how Descript can improve work-from-home potential for talent. Remove filler words with one click, adjust your audio via transcript, fix errors using an Overdub voice clone, and so much more. Use your voice beyond its in-person potential with tools that bring the power of AI editing directly to talent. More at https://voboss.com/voice-and-ai-descript-jay-leboeuf/ Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. AI Voices: Welcome to the podcast. The VO BOSS podcast blends solid, actionable business advice with a dose of inspiration for today's voiceover talent. Each week host Anne Ganguzza focuses in on a specific topic to help you grow your voiceover business. Anne: All right. Hey everyone, who was that? That was some other people introducing the podcast today. So welcome again, everyone to the VO BOSS podcast. This is the AI and Voice series, and I am your host Anne Ganguzza, Anne Ganguzza. Today, I'm excited to bring you special guest Jay LeBoeuf, head of business development at Descript, a company that creates tools for new media creators. Now, Jay is also a lecturer on media technology and business at Stanford University, Carnegie Mellon, and University of Michigan, and sits on the board of advisors of numerous AI media and ed tech startups. He previously worked at some little known companies, probably to you guys out there and in the voiceover world, Avid Pro Tools and Izotope. Jay, thank you so much for joining me today. Jay: Thanks for having me, Anne. It's, uh, it's wonderful to be here with some of my AI-driven voice friends. Anne: Yeah, that was fantastic. So what we heard in the beginning was a couple of your voices on your platform, right? Jay: Indeed. One of which is my own and we were using Descript's Overdub technology. Anne: Awesome. Well, I want to definitely talk to you about that, but before we get into your role at Descript and what the company offers, first of all, let me just say, okay. Avid Pro Tools and Izotope, known to just everybody probably that listens to this podcast, and your resume is so incredibly impressive. Back in 2008, you were founder and CEO of Imagine Research where you created the first sound object recognition platform. And somehow that, I believe that that led into a patent as well as some small business research awards to you. And then somehow that became Izotope in 2012. Now, does that mean that my mouse clicks are being detected by an AI engine? Jay: So there's so many ways that AI is now integrated into the creative products that we use on a daily basis. And so the short answer is yes. So Imagine Research was based on some of what I was seeing. So I was at the, on the Pro Tools team, like you mentioned for about eight, eight and a half years before that. And I was seeing all these struggles that recording engineers, mixing engineers, voiceover talent, uh, ADR, we were seeing all these, these problems in the process that AI could solve. So we attempted to create the first set of tools where we could teach a computer how to recognize basic sounds and musical instruments, and even robustly differentiate is this a male speaker versus a female voice, and, you know, try to choose presets automatically for it. So Izotope acquired that company and that technology. I was at Izotope for about two years or so, helping to integrate all that work. And you know, you now see that Izotope products include a number of assistants -- Anne: Oh yeah. Jay: -- and things that will listen to your content and it's going to help it -- Anne: Absolutely. Jay: -- get it to the next stage. And that's the goal with all of this. Anne: And I have to say that there's a lot of people in the voiceover industry that just absolutely, that is their go-to, that is their go-to product to get rid of excess noise in their recording. So I thought that that was so fascinating. So, and now you are at Descript, and I've heard of Descript from the podcast world, and I'd heard about it a few years back where a lot of people were starting to use Descript for transcripts for their podcasts. And then wow, you guys just seem to have like catapulted with your product offerings since then. Tell us a little bit about Descript and the products that you offer, because I'm genuinely impressed with everything that you guys have going on over there. Jay: Great. Uh, thanks for using it, being familiar with it. For those that don't know De-script or Descript, we have no official pronunciations. So the choice is yours. Anne: Okay. Jay: Our team is kind of split on it. I go with De-script myself. So -- Anne: De-script. 4:30 Jay: Descript allows creators to create and edit audio and video as simply as typing. And this is this paradigm where you can drag in content that you've recorded externally, or you can record natively in the app. A transcript appears in seconds to minutes. You know, this time transcript will appear. If you have multiple people on a track, will automatically detect who they are, split them into different speaker labels. So you have this like really rich transcription going on. And a lot of people might stop right there and say, yeah, I've seen transcription tools before. Then I, you know, do a paper edit in Google docs, and then we bring it into Pro Tools and then just start cutting. But with Descript, we have all this alignment technology where the transcript is automagically aligned to the underlying audio and video. So as you are editing the text, as you are doing things like cutting out all of your ums, ahs, likes, you knows, all of that, just snips them out. And we use some AI to kind of stitch it all together. So that way you make a few cuts. And I have plenty of examples I can play of like befores and afters, where we can take a lot of great material and just make it sound so much better. So that's all you have to do, just edit text. Anne: Now I remember when I looked at it a couple of years ago, one of the things that I have today is when I record through ipDTL, because it's a high quality audio connection, people can talk over one another. And whenever I tried transcript technologies in the past, it couldn't deal with people talking at the same time, and then basically separating out who they were. But I feel like your technology has now surpassed those issues. And it's really something that I think is incredible, that it can even overlay the words on the wave form. Is that what you had mentioned? Jay: Absolutely, so you have, you have two ways of editing. You have the script view where you can actually just see the transcript. And if you just, all you want to do is select words and phrases and hit, delete, or strike through, you can edit through that. But if you are more comfortable with the wave form, we actually will overlay the words on top of each part of the wave form. Anne: Wow. Jay: And then you can make your manipulations there. So if you want to add a crossfade to a certain place, you know that, okay, yeah. Just put a crossfade between the words, voiceover and business, and no more needing to audition thousands and thousands of times to get them right. Anne: Wow. Well, that's fantastic. All right. So that's for podcasting. And now you have some other products that you offer as well that are quite powerful. Jay: Exactly. So, you know, we're most known for podcasting, I'd say. You know, the, the people in that community have probably heard of us, have probably tried it out. If you haven't, by all means, now's a great time to at least try. Drag some tape in, start cutting it up, and of course if there's anything I can help you with, let me know. But you know, we added video support in 20 -- what year are we in now -- 2020. Anne: Yep. I saw that. Jay: It's been a year. Anne: It's been a year. Jay: It's been a year. So about halfway through 2020, we -- you were always able to kind of edit the video because it was always linked to the audio, but we really doubled down. So, uh, what we ended up doing was built in all of the basic features that you would have in a typical non-linear editor, like an, an iMovie or a Final Cut or a Premiere. We built in all the basics, all the bread and butter things that you need, on top of all of the word and text editing capabilities we had. So you can now do all of your cross fades, all of your titling, arrows and annotations, and you know, very basic multicam support. All these things work great, 4k, 60 frames-a-second video. It's all synced to the cloud, so that's something that's also really wonderful about the tool, and you, and I could record something. I can invite you just like a Google Doc, and then you and I can start collaborating on this material simultaneously. We see the same doc. We have the same footage. Anne: So, wow, a video word processor. So we have the audio word processor -- Jay: Video word processor. Anne: -- and now a video word processor. That's, wow. Also, in addition to that, I think you can do screen recording as well with Descript? Jay: Exactly. So for all of us that are fully embracing the remote collaboration -- Anne: Yeah. Jay: -- asynchronous video communication life, we're sending each other a lot of quick updates or quick tutorials. So rather than have to type out those "here's all the instructions on how to connect to ipDTL for the first time," you can actually just do a quick screen recording using your own voice. And what differentiates the Descript screen recorder is again, as soon as you finish recording your screen recording, either, you know, your webcam or the screen itself, you see an instant transcript of what you said. And with one click, if you want to remove all of your filler words -- Anne: Right. Jay: -- I am a prolific ummer and ahher when I'm making stuff up. Anne: We all -- yeah, I think we all. We all are. Jay: So when -- you get to this little dialogue that pops up that says you have 35 filler words -- Anne: Wow. Jay: -- click to remove, and then you'll see the sentence where I start explaining it. And then I say, "yeah, let me try that again." I can just whack that sentence out and then send the video along. You can ask my team. I do tons of those every day,. Anne: Now does it record the screen, and also use the video cam? So it can do multiple cameras or multiple recordings at the same time? Jay: Exactly, exactly. So, so right now you can have your webcam as a bubble that you can position anywhere you want on the screen. Also, you have separate audio tracks for your mic. You have computer audio. So that's something that I use a lot where I'm demoing something and maybe sharing the output of Descript to the app or a different tool. So you can capture audio from computer audio and also your high input. Anne: Fantastic. Jay: Very nice microphones. Anne: Now I happen to read a press release the other day about a new product called Studio Sound, which allows you to remove noise [laughs] in your recording. Jay: Okay. Anne: That's pretty powerful. [laughs] Jay: So I have incredible admiration for companies that make professional noise reduction, de-reverberation restoration tools. I have a ton of friends that work at Izotope. Having worked there myself, I love the company. So -- Anne: I was going to say, you have quite a background in it. So that would make sense. [laughs] Jay: So I will say what we wanted to build was as close to a one checkbox solution where you know what, you have this audio, you either don't have the time, you don't have the skill -- Anne: Right, exactly. Jay: -- you don't have the knowledge to use the professionals. So like we're not talking about saving location recording from the deadliest catch and removing like -- Anne: Right. Jay: -- some of those conditions. We're talking about -- let me play an example. So I'm going to play you some material, and this, this is maybe what got recorded with some, you know, room tone on a not great mic. So let me just hit play. Anne: Okay. [room noise] Jay: Hey, there's the room tone. Voice: The appearance of the island when I came on deck next morning was altogether changed. Although the breeze had now utterly ceased, we'd made a great deal of way during the night and were now lying becalmed about half a mile to the southeast of the low eastern coast. Jay: Okay. So now let me click a checkbox that's called Studio Sound in Descript. Anne: And that's not uncommon for people with podcasts who have guests that are not necessarily -- Jay: Right. Anne: -- having the right recording studio. Jay: Right. No, definitely. Anne: Yeah. Jay: So now, now let me hit the space bar and now I'm playing. Voice: The appearance of the island when I came on deck next morning was altogether changed. Although the breeze had now utterly ceased, we'd made a great deal of way during the night and were now lying -- Jay: Let me turn it off. Voice: -- becalmed about half a mile to the southeast of the low eastern coast. Anne: Wow. Jay: And back on. Voice: Green colored woods covered a large part of the surface. Anne: Wow, wow! Jay: That's one checkbox. Anne: This is a product that's actually out now? Jay: This is out now. We -- Anne: Wow, that's incredible. Jay: -- have a beta tag applied to it because we're still experimenting with it -- Anne: Sure. Jay: -- but it's actually on every plans. Anne: Okay. Jay: We have a free Descript plan. So people listening to this, they're like, I want to try this out. You can try this out. It's totally free. Try it on your files, download your files when you're done with them. Anne: Right. Jay: We're really excited about this. And this is just one of these other suites of tools that we're trying to do to allow people to create professional sounding and looking content faster than ever before. Anne: Sure. Jay: You shouldn't have to spend hundreds and hundreds of extra dollars to download and learn tools when you have problems with your content. And so that's, that's some of the stuff we're trying to solve. Anne: Yeah, and that really serves a need. You know, I cannot tell you how many people -- I mean, I'm a full-time voice talent. And so for me, you know, this is part of my daily thing. I had to learn how to, or I'd had tools that helped me to remove noise, but there's so many people out and in the podcast world, or just in general, that are creating content and yeah. Stuff like this is it can be immensely helpful. So, wow. So that's an incredible suite of tools, and you also now have, well, you've had it for a couple of years now, Overdub, right, which is your -- this is how you can create an AI voice, your voice cloning technology. Talk to me a little bit about that. Jay: Absolutely. So Overdub allows anyone to create their own voice clone, and importantly, only with their own voice. And you can do that with only a few minutes of training data. And once you have this voice clone, this voice model, you can generate new sentences or correct your verbal typos. So a few ways that we see it being used, being -- really resonate with your listeners. Let's say you made a mistake in a, in an audio book or, you know, in a podcast, you mispronounced the key character's name. Anne: Right. Jay: You stated a date wrong, something like that. So you need to go back to the studio, or if you're at home, you need to kind of set up your equipment again, get it exactly how it was before. Anne: Punch and roll. [laughs] Jay: Rerecord everything, punch and roll, or even better, I have much more experience on the editor side. So as an editor, I would spend hours trying to find that word or phrase and then splice it in from elsewhere in the archives. Anne: Absolutely. Jay: It just never sounds right. Anne: Yeah, that actually makes me think of a lot of medical recordings that I do, for medical narration. If you find that you've mispronounced the word once, it's usually in the script quite a few times, if it's a product name. Jay: Right. So with Overdub, you would have created your own voice model. And so if you have the script and you knew -- you're using Descript, you can actually go in, find that one word that needs fixing or that phrase that needs fixing, or the sentence you actually forgot to say, and just type it in. And what we actually do behind the scenes -- this part is fascinating -- we don't just generate in the word in isolation. We take the text that you type in. We take basically the audio recording before your contextual edit and the audio after. And then we send that all to the cloud, and using those three inputs along with, you know, your voice model, we're able to generate the missing word or phrase to make it fit in in context. So, you know, if I was trying to resynthesize the word Overdub, sometimes it will sound like Overdub. Sometimes it'll sound Overdub, and it's just gonna depend on where it's going to fit in within the phrasing of what you were saying. Anne: Wow. So tell me again, what does it take to create your Overdub again? How long does it take? Jay: As little as 10 minutes -- Anne: Wow! Jay: -- of training data. Anne: So does that mean you have a model that's already there, that's being used for these voices? Jay: So let's go even deeper with the super behind the scenes. The way that we're able to make it so easy where all you need to do is create, you know, you basically read a training script. Anne: Okay. Jay: And you read this training scripts to us, and, you know, we have it on our website and there's, there's nothing special about it. Technically any source material would work, but we just provide this like David Attenborough voiceover stuff. It's really fun to read. Anne: Okay. Jay: So you read that, and we need as little as 10 minutes. The more you add, the better it's going to get. There's no point in going over an hour at that point. Our research has shown it's not going to sound any better. Anne: Okay. Jay: So, you know, between 10 minutes and an hour that you're willing to sit and read this script. The other thing we need of course is your voice consent statement. So this is a 30-second long blurb we also have available on our website, which you grant consent to Descript to create your own voice model. And you're just stating that, like, I and I alone have access to this voice model. If I choose to grant it with somebody else, then I'm giving people the option to use my voice. But you know, this voice is just mine. And we use that to compare against the training data to make sure that this is really you. Anne: Got it. So then let me just back up just a second. Jay: Yeah, please. Anne: So if you're using any of the material that people upload, let's say, for podcast editing or any of the, any of the products that you offer, is any of that being used for training data from Descript? Jay: No. So all of your material, all your voice data is yours and yours alone. Anne: Got it. Previous to releasing Overdub, we had actually learned from this the general speech patterns from thousands and thousands of speakers. Uh, Descript acquired a company called Lyrebird in 2019. Anne: Yes, I'm familiar with that. Jay: And they're real pioneers in this space. And they had actually learned from thousands of existing speakers. Anne: I heard the viral thing they did with politicians, so back a few years back. Absolutely. And so you've had the model for a while that's been developed with thousands and thousands of voices. Jay: Exactly. Anne: Got it. Jay: What, what the secret sauce is, is the ability to, with just a few minutes of a different person's speech, be able to identify what makes Jay or what makes Anne sound the way they do with the mic they have in the room that they do with the cadence that they're speaking? And we kind of can make this like lighter weight model to generate your speech. Anne: Okay. So what, in your opinion, or what, in your knowledge, what makes a better AI voice? Is it the person that records being, I don't know, more conversational or what makes some voices sound a little more robotic than others? Jay: The short answer is it's really going to depend on the underlying technology that's being used. So that's why Descript's Overdub technology sounds different than Alexa, than Google Wavenet, than Thimble, than, you know, than other solutions. For our approach, some of the things that we think makes it sound so good, so one thing is that we are one of the only solutions that actually we generate already 44,100 samples every second of your voice. And your listeners know what that means. If, if people don't it's, you know, CD quality sound -- you don't even know what CDs are anymore. Anne: I know! Jay: It's really good, super high resolution. And so that's one of the things that people often notice, like Alexa is nowhere even close to -- Anne: Right. Jay: 44.1 K. And so that's why she'll always sound that little bit muffled, that little bit like flat. And so by generating in, you know, what the researchers called super resolution, that's one thing that really makes a very big difference with what we're doing. From a training material standpoint, when we, you know, when we work with artists and celebrities, sometimes we'll actually coach them on, you know, the training material that they should put into the system should be read as naturally -- Anne: As possible. Jay: -- as they want the output to be. So, yeah. So, you know, we have the David Attenborough scripts, but if you're never going to be doing that in the wild and then read it in a way that's more representative -- Anne: In the wild! [laughs] Right, right, absolutely. Jay: Literally in the wild. Anne: Yup. Yup. Okay. All right. That makes sense. Now, do you have tools that allow you to change the sound of it once you've, you know, once you've typed in a script, and you change -- can you add emotion? Can you change speed? Those sorts of things? Jay: Change style is what we have. Rather than exposing 10, 15, you know, sliders, controls, checkbox, the Descript way of doing it is to allow you to actually select some source material that sounds representative of the style you want to recreate. So I would go in there, I would highlight a sentence or part of a paragraph that sounds like what I want to create. I would then right click on it, say overdub voice style, and I would say "create new voice style," and then call it whatever you want. So maybe it's happy or enthusiastic. Anne: Okay. Jay: You give it a name and then that name can be applied for Overdub generation in the future to steer the material. Anne: Are you recording that happy? Or are you recording that? Like, where are they getting that from? Where are you getting the happy from? Or the emotion from? Jay: Yeah. Anne: The style. Jay: We leave it to users. Anne: Oh, okay. Jay: That's one of the things people say like -- Anne: I got it. Jay: -- "hey, you know, I just created my voice model. Why don't you provide some templates?" I'm like, because I don't know what you sound like when you're happy. Anne: Okay, okay. Jay: So you get one default style -- Anne: Okay. Jay: -- that the system thinks is neutral Anne. This is what neutral Anne sounds like. And then it's up to you to go through, and in your training data, start finding examples of here's me being contemplative, here's me being excitable, and then give them the names -- Anne: Okay. Jay: -- that you you feel comfortable with. Anne: Do you resell these voices? Jay: No. So your voice is only your voice. You can assign it to other people that you work with on your team -- Anne: Okay. Jay: -- but you can also revoke that at any time. That's, uh, you know, it's functionality that we, we treat seriously. Now that -- the one thing we do provide to get people started out of the box, when we were playing the welcome to the VO BOSS intro, for example, we provide some stock voices. So we have eight right now, just a very limited palette, but still eight stock voices, which are pre-trained voice models of voice actors that we have an agreement with to get people get up and running. Anne: Got it. So then if I wanted to resell my voice, is that possible? Like if I create, let's say I get a script, I mean, you can hire human Anne or you can hire AI Anne. And so somebody says, well, I'm going to hire AI Anne, and I'm going to pay a certain amount. You know, probably not as much as human Anne. Could I then on Descript generate that voice and sell that? Jay: Yeah, we, you know, we don't have a marketplace or anything like that to facilitate that, but -- Anne: Interesting. Jay: -- the voice is yours. So you would come to an arrangement. You would be responsible for sharing your voice with another Descript user and overseeing how they're using it. And you know, the nice part of the voice ownership, you can turn it off at any time, so you can revoke access. Anne: So I guess my question would be, let's say I have a client, and they say, you know what? I have a bunch of material that I need to have recorded, but my budget is so much. And I say, okay, well, I can do that for you with my AI voice. 'Cause I don't have enough time to go in my studio and record that, but I could go to Descript, throw in the scripts, generate that, and then sell that to my client. I guess that's my question. Um, and that would be in agreement -- Jay: Oh, totally. Anne: -- that would be in agreement. How interesting, because I think one thing that a lot of people in the voiceover industry have been fearful of is, you know, who owns that voice, and how do I know where it's being used, and how do I, you know, is there an agreement, a contract that's been drawn up? So what that would do is it would allow us control over our own voice in selling the voice. So we would like, we normally do, we have contracts where we specify usage. So if it happens to be, let's say, in the commercial realm, and it's a commercial for McDonald's, if that's, you know, what they were looking for, we could then, you know, put in usage that would be appropriate for the job. And it would be something that we would negotiate with the company. Jay: Right. Anne: And that would be fine. You're not even a middle guy in that. That's basically we own our own voice. Jay: No. Anne: We can do whatever we want with it. Right? We can download it, right, I assume. Jay: Absolutely. This is the workflow I heard you say, Anne, is maybe we can flip it. You hire me, I'm voice talent. You give me the script. Anne: Yup, yup. Jay: But then like, oh, this is not within my budget. And you're like, how about this? I'm going to give you AI Jay. Anne: Yup. Jay: You're only interested in the final files. Maybe I can also give you the Descript file so that way, if you need to make -- Anne: Changes. Jay: -- changes and tweaks, you can, but you can't make, you can't generate new material. Anne: Well, then they'd have -- Jay: So here's AI Jay. This is Jay. I'm reading a sentence for Anne. She paid me to read this. Here you go. Anne: Oh, yup, yup. Jay: There's my material. You provide the audio files. These things are getting a lot of traction. So we actually have the ability to batch export material. And also we have API access for -- Anne: Wow. Jay: -- Overdub for if you want to programmatically do things. Anne: Sure. Jay: So a real example, there's a -- Anne: Wow. Jay: -- creative agency, and they work with one of their voice actors to do a mixture of things that are read real, but then they have a contract with Sunglass Hut. And they want to personalize it to go to your local Sunglass Hut. Anne: Right, exactly. Jay: And they get the address or the town. Anne: Sure. Jay: And so what they actually do, and Descript is not involved in this -- Anne: Right. Jay: -- but they use the tools to programmatically then create all the addresses sp this voice talent doesn't have to read 10,000 different Sunglass Hut locations. And so the voice actor consents to using their voice for that. And often they're the ones like generating on their system -- Anne: Sure. Jay: -- because they want to make sure it sounds right, and it's -- Anne: Well, yeah, exactly. So the client isn't necessarily going in -- they don't have a Descript account, and they're going in and typing it -- in addresses. It would be the talent probably, 'cause you're right. They would tweak it speed-wise or, you know, just so it sounds good. Jay: Right. And it's as super flexible. So I would encourage -- Anne: Right. Jay: -- because you know, the voice that you create, you can only create a voice with your own voice. You -- Anne: Right. Jay: We have people that try to upload a Barack Obama voice, you know, try to fake the consent statement, and AI built this. AI is kind of smarter than that. So it can detect that you're trying to fake the system. Anne: Right. Jay: We also have a human in the loop that listens to these consent statements. Make sure everything's legit. Anne: Oh, got it, got it. Jay: So we do everything we can to keep this as secure as possible. Anne: Wow. Talk to us a little bit about ethics, because I know you're one of the early adopters of putting a terms of service and an ethics statement on your website. Tell me about your policies on that. Jay: Yeah. I love that when I joined -- I joined the company at the beginning of 2020. There was already an ethics statement in place -- Anne: Mm-hmm, yup. Jay: -- which, which I was really inspired by. So you own, and you control your use of your digital voice. And this is something we strongly believe in that users can, you know, create a model that's authorized by you and controlled by you. So that's something that we unwaveringly do not budge from, and it's all based on this recorded verbal consent state, that kind of grants consent, and also helps us verify that you are a real, live, consenting person. So we will not clone voices of the deceased. Anne: Okay, okay. Jay: It's just, it's just a slippery slope. Anne: Yeah. Jay: That's an unapproved voice cloning. So unless we have a consent statement,. Anne: Oh, okay, that makes sense then why you have a verbal consent statement, yeah. Jay: We have a verbal consent statement, and, you know, uh, and again, people will try to stitch it together with -- Anne: Sure. Jay: -- with words, but it's just the system's designed to, to try to not allow that. And you know, we personally view that unapproved voice cloning -- like if we start making exceptions to this rule, then we're going to get into a world where we're making subjective judgment calls -- Anne: Yeah. Jay: -- about what's ethical and what's not ethical -- Anne: Absolutely. Jay: -- or what's a creative use case. And that's a very slippery slope. So we just want to be very clear and transparent. You have to own your voice. You have to be able to provide a consent statement. Um, we do not clone voices of children or minors. That's also against our terms of service. So if you're under 13, you can't use Descript. Our terms of service prohibit that. Anne: Okay. Jay: And we really want to stay up on what are the, the latest ethical standards? How are other companies using this? So we're talking to a lot of companies, participating in different membership organizations to try to figure out, you know, how do we ensure that content is authentic and -- Anne: Right. Jay: -- we're, we're as responsible as possible? Anne: Are you in the process of improving your model? So the AI voices will become even better and better and better with even maybe less data or, you know, even more human-like? Or is there a point where you kind of say, this is the level of -- like, how human do you want it to be? Because I think there's a level there of, if it becomes too human, then maybe there's that one note that somebody says, "wait a minute, am I being duped? Is this, you know, is this a human talking to me? Or is it an AI voice?" Do you have a level of, I guess, humanness for your AI model? Jay: We're going to keep improving it until it is indistinguishable from reality. And there's a lot of podcasts right now where you know, the sweet spot right now, Anne, is for this contextual edits where a word or a phrase has been fixed in the context of a longer recording. So we're at the point now where hosts are using that on a regular basis, and you can't tell. Like, no one's writing in and saying -- Anne: Right. Jay: -- that it sounds fake. And that's something that even a few years ago, it sounded like -- Anne: Sure. Jay: -- like voicemail phone tree systems, it would stick out. Those are just smooth. They sound great. Where we're going to be going, and what I think is going to sound better and better in the coming years is this like longer form text-to-speech. Anne: Yeah, right. Jay: So let me give you an example. So this is, this is how Malcolm Gladwell and his team at Pushkin Industries use Descript, and they use this for podcasts and audio books. So, you know, they're using Descripts, the desktop app, to transcribe dozens of interviews and, you know, archive material, and then starting to pull tape, pull selects, and getting the show in like a good rough cut. And then Malcolm Gladwell created his Overdub voice, and he assigned access to his voice to some of his editors. So they can create a draft narration for what the show would sound like with him doing the intro and kind of transitioning between different pieces. And so they can actually do a table read, and everybody can just kind of get on a call, listen to the table read with digital Malcolm, so they can hear how it sounds before anybody entered the -- Anne: Sure. Jay: Now that -- nothing's going to replace Malcolm in the zone saying and introducing his stories as himself. Anne: Right. Jay: And he's going to be like that for a while. Anne: Yeah. Jay: But there's always going to be applications, and it could be for really short commercials. Anne: Yeah. Jay: It could be for no budget audio books where, you know what, I'm just going to throw the AI voice at it. And we're gonna certainly know it's fake, but it's not going to be like listening to Alexa reading audio. Anne: Right, right, exactly. Jay: Because it's going to, it's going to actually have some, have some level of dynamics. Anne: Well, I think as long as the listener, I mean, then it becomes like the consumer, right? And you know, as long as they're aware. You know, I don't have a problem listening to Alexa 'cause I know it's Alexa, and I don't feel like Alexa is trying to dupe me into thinking she's human. And so I feel that same way. If I'm aware, I don't have a problem in certain cases, listening to it as long as know. Jay: That's it. And that's also why we want to, if anything, empower creators to have control of their voice. And if they wanna use it for editorial corrections, fantastic. If they want to use it for some longer form projects that they don't actually have the time to do or the budget -- their clients might not have the budget to do it -- Anne: Right. Jay: That that's their choice. Anne: Wow. Well, this has just been so enlightening. Woo, thank you so much for talking to me and talking to our listeners and talking about this, this amazing product that just seems to keep going. You guys keep coming up with these really wonderful things. So congratulations on that. Where do you see AI going in five years or even ten years? Jay: I'm super excited about this. Like media production is now actually entering a phase where if you can dream it, it can happen. And we don't necessarily need the expensive studio or the years and years and years of audio or video production training. We just need our laptops. So you and I both seen this in our careers with, with the move, from editing on tape -- Anne: Yup. Jay: -- to digital and then with PCs becoming so powerful with tools like iMovie and Garage Band that, you know, truly anybody can be a creator, and professionals can work from home. Well, the thing is there were a lot of advances during this time on other parts of the production process, like filming on smart phones and being able to broadcast and publish on social media, YouTube and podcast hosts, but all that stuff in between, all the editorial, all the correcting out mistakes -- Anne: Yeah. Jay: -- uh, generating small replacements, re-records, cutting, all that has been painstakingly difficult. Anne: Yeah. Jay: So this is where AI is really stepping in. And this next wave is, is huge because everybody is going to have access to these tools that make life even simpler, and the next generation of storytellers have never had it so good. Anne: Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. Oh, my goodness. Thank you so, so very much again, for spending time with us today. I'm going to give a big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect like a BOSS and find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, BOSSes, have an amazing week, and we will see you next week. Thanks again. Bye-bye. Jay: Bye, everybody. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to Coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Terry and guest host, Jay Busselle, will discuss the steps to take in creating your own brand. In today's world, customers don't want to buy from just a screen printer, or sublimator, or an embroiderer. Today's customer wants a relationship with a company that has shared views and values. In this week's show, we'll have a conversation about getting started in developing your own brand in the industry. Our regular listeners know this, but 2 Regular Guys are all about garment decorating, a bit of fun, and no rants or lectures or selling. We are not doing this for our employers, but rather for our industry. Since February 2013, The 2 Regular Guys have been the first and the most listened to garment decorating industry podcast on this planet! We are humbled by all of you tuning in each week. We work hard to bring you information that will make your business better, and our industry better. Take a look at our incredible weekly guest list and you'll understand where this industry goes for news, interviews, and the heartbeat of garment decorating. Thanks for listening! News Terry: Our Success Group Puts Focus on Business Planning in Next Webinar titled “Why You Must Have a Business Plan to Survive” The session, which takes place June 23 at 5 p.m. ET, focuses on why business owners need a business plan to make it in the industry. Hosts will look at the key areas businesses need to look at when building out a plan and how to make a plan work, regardless of business size. For more details and to register, go to https://www.oursuccessgroup.com/survive/ Jay: Shutterfly to Acquire Spoonflower for $225 Million - The personalized products retailer adds Spoonflower's wallpaper, fabric, linens, bedding, and other home decor soft goods to its product lineup. Shutterfly, a digital retailer and manufacturing platform for personalized products, announces an agreement to acquire Spoonflower for approximately $225 million of enterprise value subject to certain working capital and other adjustments. Read more at Graphics Pro Magazine (https://graphics-pro.com/news/shutterfly-to-acquire-spoonflower-for-225-million/) Dad Joke: What do dentists call X-rays?Tooth picsFrom Missy Lossey Branding YOU Terry: Ok, it's time to talk about branding! It seems like the topic of branding (and tacos) comes up in almost every discussion we have with you Jay!Jay: It's true! I guess I'm just lucky that way Terry.Terry: Why don't we start with a brief reminder of your definition of branding?Jay: Sounds good Terry! Branding isn't easy… I can tell you that! A lot of smart people have shared a lot of opinions and their definition of a brand. This is mine:Your brand is not your logo.Your brand is not what you do.Your brand is not your product.Your brand is your style.Your brand is your promise to me.Your brand is how you make me feel.Remember SPF! (not sun protection factor) Style - Promise - FeelTerry: What do you mean by style, Jay? Maybe you could explain that a little more?Jay: Let's start with the dictionary definition of the word style: a distinctive appearance, typically determined by the principles according to which something is designed.Playful & Lighthearted {or} Serious & SoberEconomical & Affordable {or} Luxury & LavishVintage & Classic {or} Modern & ContemporaryRock n Roll {or} Hip HopCountry {or} ClassicalTruck {or} SedanSUV {or} Mini VanV8 engine {or} ElectricYour vibe, your personality, your character, your identity.I also want to share that in my opinion, it's critical to think about this from both a business and personal perspective. Especially if you're a small business owner! Because if you are a small biz owner then you're in sales and in marketing and in bookkeeping and in production and in janitorial and in … and in…  and in… you're in EVERYTHING. This also means your personal style is in EVERYTHING. To be more clear - if your style, your personality, your identity is of a serious, sober, calm and calculated nature, then guess what?

After his first trip down the eCommerce road ended in failure, Jay B. Sauceda swore to never again travel down that path. But life has this funny way of coming full circle and turning your failures into successes. Today, Jay is the founder and CEO of Texas Humor, an eCommerce shop so successful that Jay decided to take the leap and also build Sauceda Industries, which helps manage not only Texas Humor logistics, but the logistics of many other D2C companies.The journey from failure to repeated success was a winding one, and Jay takes us through it all on this episode of Up Next in Commerce. Along the way, he digs into what it takes to build a company from a base of loyal supporters and his advice to marketers, including how to be a trusted friend rather than a bother in a consumer’s life. Plus, he explains why customer expectations around fast shipping don’t always have to apply to the products you offer.  Main Takeaways:Small Now, Not Forever: Many eCommerce shops rightly want to outsource their logistics to a 3PL, but if your company is too small, many of those companies may not even be open to working with you. This is what Jay experienced in his early eCommerce days, and he has some ideas on how to approach this if you keep hearing “no”.A Good House Guest: Think of advertising like being a guest in someone’s home. You don’t want to walk in and overwhelm the conversation with talk of yourself. Your content shouldn’t act that way either. Bring something more to the table.I Want it Now!: Companies with fast shipping — the Amazons of the world — have led to new consumer expectations when it comes to delivery times. That may be true, but this may not be the expectation for every type of transaction. For necessary commodity goods, fast shipping is critical, but for unique items or products that customers are buying from a company they are loyal to, they actually are much more willing to accept a slower delivery timeline as long as there is transparency throughout the process.The COVID Effect: As the COVID-19 vaccines are approved and shipped, more logistical resources will be deployed to achieve that task. Stephanie thought that this could have a big impact on shipping, but Jay doesn’t necessarily agree. Tune in to hear his take!For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder at mission.org. Today, we're chatting with Jay B Sauceda, the CEO of Sauceda Industries. Jay, welcome.Jay:Hey, how's it going?Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you on. As we mentioned before the show, I'll be moving to your neck of the woods here in a month or so.Jay:It's a very popular thing to do these days.Stephanie:It is.Stephanie:Yeah. I'm excited to get there. So today I want to talk about two things that feel very dispersed. We are talking about Texas Humor and logistics, but I think the best place to start would be your background so then I can guide the listeners through the story in the way that makes the most sense.Jay:Yeah. I grew up Southeast of Houston in a blue collar town called La Porte, Texas, which is where there's a lot of the chemical plants refineries that most people can picture with the whole oil production industry of Texas. But the really great thing about La Porte that I loved was, it fostered really any kind of career development and adult development that you might want. So if you wanted to go to high school and upper education or undergrad education wasn't your thing, you could still graduate and go make 70, $80,000 working in the chemical plants close by and really support your family and do a really great thing. If you were a creative kid like I was, the high school there was really fantastic about fostering creativity of young people and developing their careers dependent upon what direction they wanted to go.Jay:So it wasn't like one of these small towns that you see in a movie where everybody works at the coal mine and you got generations of people doing the same thing like that. That may be the case for some people, but there was a lot of latitude to figure out what you're going to do and have people who could help you chase some of those dreams. So for me, I was always a creative kid and was really into photography and those types of endeavors. So I was able to exercise and work out those muscles creatively speaking when I was a kid, and then ultimately ended up coming to University of Texas, where originally I thought that I was going to study political science and which I did. But ultimately went down the path of advertising and the creative field.Jay:I spent four years at UT and ultimately just realized that doing the law school and the political science thing wasn't really my GM and ended up in advertising and working for a small ad agency here in Austin, which was the beginning of my creative career and ultimately what led to me ending up in e-commerce some years later.Stephanie:Okay. Cool. When I was doing a bit of research, I saw that the creative agency or advertising agency was only six people. So you were able to hear about the business deals, learn about the business side of things as long as the creative piece as well?Jay:Yeah. It was a great little firm called The Butler Bros. The two principals there, Adam and Marty Butler, both had some really high level well-positioned roles at the big ad agency here in Austin called GSD&M. They had that front row seat to these really large deals that bigger agencies deal with. But eventually went and started their own firm, and yeah, in those first few years there were just a handful of them. So I was able to sit in the room and as this college intern had access to a lot of conversations and things that I don't think that most ad agency interns would typically have access to. As a result, I really think that it propelled my career forward in a way that, when I ended up starting a little design studio with some friends and building out the early years of my career, I felt more prepared to operate ahead of my years because of some of those experiences and the things that you just pick up when you happen to be in the room with the principals of two companies.Stephanie:Yep. So where did you jump to next after the advertising company?Jay:I had done that for a while and then went freelance after working for them. They gave me some really great advice on the tail end of my career there. I was curious whether they were going to hire me to work for them or not. At the time they were indicating that not likely, that I hadn't really had enough of a specialty up until that point to make it worthwhile for me to be somebody who was there full time. So really great as an intern, but not so much as a full flung employee. So for that reason, their advice was to go out and try to specialize in something which ultimately ended up being photography.Jay:So I went and started to focus on photography as a whole and developed a career as a commercial photographer and ultimately did that for about 10 years. But I guess the eventual destination in this story that's worthwhile to your listeners is that, during that period, I started a small ad agency, a little designed firm called Public School with a group of friends. We had this motif that was all based off of the 1960s era of graphic design specifically around school books and textbooks. And so when we started publishing to our blog and publishing about our work, people really gravitated towards the t-shirts and the various pieces of collateral that we had designed for that brand.Jay:So we were really excited because we thought, "Well, why don't we capitalize on this and start an online store?" Which we did, and almost immediately had a ton of sales for t-shirts and various items that we were selling, which was massively exciting. But as with most people who sell things online, it's really funny to see, or it's real fun to see that money and those sales come in. It's not a ton of fun to have to deal with getting all those orders out after the fact. And ultimately that's what we ran into. It was a lot of excitement around making the money, but not a lot of excitement around having to deal with shipments. So the work associated with having to get those packages out the door was so time-consuming and unfun that I, after a while shut [inaudible] and then swore off ever getting back in the e-commerce again. So suffice it to say it's a little bit funny to find myself sitting here about 11 or 12 years later, the CEO of a e-commerce logistics brand shipping the number of packages that we are every day.Stephanie:That's great. So tell me a bit about, what year was the store live and did you shift right into the logistics business or did that come a bit later?Jay:No. I launched our online store in 2013. The social media audience for Texas Humor, I'd developed over a few years before that. Then in 2013, got it off the ground and started trying to get into scale. Initially, we were just shipping the orders out of my home garage, but over time, basically we had decided to try to outsource the work because we had just gotten so sick of dealing with the scale and having a tough time getting out of our own way as business owners. I reached out to some 3PLs and one of the ones here in Austin just had a very snarky and negative approach to telling me that it wasn't really the right time, which ultimately led to us just getting a little bit of a chip on our shoulder about it and decided to just do it ourselves.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). What kind of pushback were you getting when you were reaching out to these 3PLs other than them saying that you were too small for what they probably wanted to work with?Jay:Yeah. Really, that sums it up. It's mostly, "You're too small for this to be worthwhile." And look, I don't have a problem with that. I run an organization that has to say that to people as well. The difference though, is that culturally our approach is to say that it's not a no, it's the not right now. And what we'd rather do is try to be a resource for some of these companies to help them understand what would make them qualify to work with the 3PL and/or make it cost effective for both parties to be in a mutually beneficial relationship. A lot of, I think, small merchants just get in this mindset that their business is worthwhile and they're ready to just offload and go. And in my case, I recognized that we were too small at the time. What I was trying to point out to the guy was that, "We're not big enough to be worthwhile today, but let me sit down and show you the marketing plan and all the things that we're going to do that will make us worthwhile in the near future."Jay:And that was just not something he was really willing to listen to. So that was very much an approach that just rubbed me the wrong way and was something that has definitely informed how we coach brands as they come to us and we have to turn them away because of a number of reasons. Sometimes it's just, we're going to be more expensive than it is even worthwhile for you to be working with us. So until you hit a certain level, you can be spending more money than you are making just to facilitate paying us to do the work and that's not a good position to be in for anybody. So let's avoid that and try to find something that's going to be beneficial for everyone. And that might mean not today, but in the near future. So let me help you fast forward by giving you some tips and some other things that can help you get there quicker.Stephanie:Yep. That's great. Before we dive too deep into the logistics piece, I was hoping you could touch a bit on Texas Humor so people know how you created Texas Humor, what it turned into and what you were trying to sell to even start talking to a 3PL.Jay:Yeah. Over my career, I've done a lot of this kind of audience building with our brand at our old studio. And for me personally, as a photographer, audience building has been a big aspect of what I've always done. And Texas Humor was just this idea that was born out of a discussion with one of the partners in the design studio I was in, in which we were just talking through what different audiences could we build and where could we go with that? And so I started from nothing, started just tweeting about Texas as a whole and that's ultimately really like where we developed the idea. There was no specific e-commerce goal in mind. But once we realized that we had a few million followers and this captive audience that we could do something with, that was the point at which we decided, "Why don't we try to make this into a little bit more of a business?" And ultimately where we got the idea to start texashumor.com.Jay:But it wasn't this big strategic thing in which we said, "Hey, we're going to go start this and we're going to build a store and we're going to do X, Y, and Z." It was far more organic than that. But I took the background that I had in marketing and advertising and leveraged that to really scale up what we were doing. Probably much faster than most organizations would, who would be doing something like what we were doing at the time.Stephanie:Yep. So how did you develop that audience and get in front of people? I think I see now that you have over 2 million followers on your social channels, and so, how long did it take to get a big enough audience that then you were like, "Oh, maybe we should try and sell something to them as well." And what did that process look like?Jay:It was a couple of years before we actually did try to actually sell anything to anybody, because at the time we were just so averse to e-commerce and wanting to develop any inventory position or anything like that. So we didn't come out of the gates thinking like, "Oh yeah, we're going to totally go do this thing and have it be focused on e-com." That was very much later on down the road. The goal that we had initially was to just try to make some form of money. But it by no means was, "Let's try to focus on e-commerce." Originally, it was more so of a content advertising play and that's really what drove it in the early years.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I saw that you were generating like 40,000 in revenue by the third month of operation with the content piece of it, right?Stephanie:What are some tips around building up that audience? What are some tactics and strategies that maybe you even use to this day to build up an audience?Jay:I'm a big believer that, I don't remember who told me this. Maybe I made it up, I don't know, but I just see content and advertising as like a guest in people's homes. Most people do not want someone who's going to come over to their house for dinner and just spend the entire time talking about themselves. And so as brands or content generation organizations, if the only thing we're doing is going me, me, me, then of course, people are going to be turned off by it. That's the exact definition of bad advertising. So for us, and for how I thought about building Texas Humor initially, it was really trying to think and put myself in the shoes of the people who were our audience and try to say the things that they had on their mind already.Jay:So there's no science to that necessarily, and I think it's why yes, there are probably some, I don't know, formulas for "going viral", but a lot of the things that do ultimately go viral have this weird X factor that people have a hard time wrapping their head around. And in my mind, that X factor is that it comes from the heart and it resonates with people. So if you really wanted to know what is it that we do that's different than everybody else, we're not the only brand or the only feed that talks about taxes, but I do think that we're the only one that tries not to just purely patronize people. And I think that that's really what set us apart early on. We were trying to be unique, we're trying to provide quality and we weren't just doing social media for the sake of doing social media.Jay:The store almost felt like a secondary function of the audience that we had built and not the other way around, which is where I think a lot of brands start. They say, "Well, how do we sell to everybody?" And then they think about everything after the fact, and in my mind, that's really the wrong way to approach it.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. I love the idea of building a community first and just focus on making that great. I know we've had someone from Food52 on the show previously, and they had the same experience where they're like, "We're just here to build a good blog, good content, make sure our community likes what they're getting from us and can also engage with each other. And then it was just obvious to start selling products and giving them what they wanted based on the recipes we were showing and the maybe materials we were using and whatnot."Jay:Exactly. Really, the strongest brands are the ones that think about the commerce secondly. It depends upon what it is you're selling. Your brand may be the content, but in our case, it's not. The content is the brand versus the brand being the content, if that makes sense. Really, the difference is we took that tact. Stephanie:So let's talk a little bit about the logistics arm of Sauceda Industries. Tell me why did you, or how did you even decide, "We're going to go into fulfillment and logistics?"Jay:Mostly for the reason I described earlier. We were already doing it for ourselves and it ultimately just was a way to cover the costs that we had as an organization. Most fulfillment operations are cost centered, not really a revenue driver. So those types of things tend to be an area where you're losing money or you're killing your margin. So we saw it as an opportunity to make some money rather than just have people carrying it as dead weight.Stephanie:What kind of mistakes do you see brands making today when they start exploring the path of working with a 3PL?Jay:I think most brands just make the assumption that their time is less valuable than they think it is, or the leaders of the brands tend to think that. And so as a result, they don't farm out the things that they should be. Not having accounting firms from outside handle your books, not working with a logistics company to handle fulfillment. There's this idea that most entrepreneurs have that they can do things for cheaper and faster than most people. And that's probably the case, but in terms of opportunity costs, having a CEO of a online brand handle all of the orders simply to save a little bit of money or to not have an invoice to have to pay for that it's like, that's not really the right way to be thinking about it. So we just really try to coach people on opportunity costs and help them understand those types of things.Stephanie:Yep. Are there any bets right now that you're making in the world of logistics where it's headed? It seems like consumer preferences and demands are definitely increasing around everyone wants one to two day shipping, Amazon's made everyone expect that now. What kind of things are you guys leaning into or investing in right now to keep up with those trends?Jay:Everybody says that, and I actually don't believe that at all. I think that everybody thinks that that's the case because that's, in my opinion, what the major news outlets say are pundits on TV, but I've not found that to be the case. I think if people are buying a toilet paper, yeah, they need that in one to two days. But if they're buying something very specific from your brand, they'll get it when they get it. I actually think that there's more price sensitivity to shipping than most people think. As a result, people know what they're paying for and in the case of Amazon, like sure, if what you sell is available from 75 other people on Amazon, yeah, you better hope that it's prime enabled and it's cheap and all of the above. But if you've built a brand that sells something very specific that only you carry, then if you build the desire, then people, they'll get it when they get it.Jay:But it's not this type of thing where just because they can get toilet paper or Mrs. Meyers baths or a kitchen soap in two days means that they need their Texas Humor shirt in two days too. I'm a pretty adamant person when it comes to that case because I get that question a ton and I think a lot of people say that, but no one has actually really proven to me that that's true. Now, if you ask people their preference, they're all going to tell you two days. But I think that we don't deal, or we don't work in this vacuum in which every single store and shopping experience that happens online is compared equally. I think most customers who are shopping online are doing so with it in mind that like, whatever it is that they're buying is unique to that experience.Jay:And so, so long as the brand is setting their expectations up front about what the experience is going to be for the customer, I really just don't think it's as much of a challenge as most people think it will be to get the orders out the door whenever they're going to get them out the door.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I definitely can see that. It definitely depends on what the product is, like you're saying. If it's diapers, yeah, I need that like right now, in an hour. First, because I probably didn't think about it until last minute versus, I just ordered earrings from this one company, Marjorie, I don't know how to say their name, but I don't mind if it comes in a week. That's okay because they're the only ones selling this product that I want and I'm okay with waiting.Jay:Correct. Correct. Yeah.Stephanie:Yeah. I definitely think there's a lot of room for brands to be more transparent around the shipping though. And I would rather have someone under-promise and over-deliver than tell me something where it might actually get delayed where I'm betting on that.Jay:No, and I think that that's absolutely correct. I do believe that there are a lot of brands who do a pretty poor job of being clear about those things. So no, I'm 100% with you on that. But I do think that a lot of people will just make the assumption that everybody's going to care about it more than they actually do. Which is partially why I'm adamant about trying to dispel with that rumor.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, you're doing it here. Yeah. The one thing I was just reading about too, was about delays in shipping and how there's going to be a lot of shake ups in that area, especially if the COVID vaccine gets approved. I don't know if you've read about this a bit, but how, if it starts being something that's going to be shipped everywhere, which is what would happen if it's approved, it's going to delay all the postage everywhere. Have you read any bit about this or thought about things like that, that are a little bit less predictable than other things that would maybe delay shipping [crosstalk 00:27:42]?Jay:Yeah. I've actually spoken with some people on the inside of FedEx and a few other places. There are two major vaccines that are out right now. There's the one by Pfizer and then there's another one by the other organization, I'm trying to blank on. Both of which require cold storage for the transit. The Pfizer vaccine in particular requires cold chain storage that is very, very specific to medical purposes. And so you're not sticking this on a FedEx truck. This is going on a very, very specific type of vehicle. None of which carry any of your packages from my store to your house. The other-Stephanie:The won't be shared, you're saying? Even if there was a cold storage company like a computer company or food, they would never be shared on the same truck anyways, so that it's not like a-Jay:Correct.Stephanie:... same pie that you're pulling from them then is what you're saying?Jay:Correct.Stephanie:Okay.Jay:It is not a similar supply chain, cold chain storage is wildly different or cold chain transit is wildly different than the type of process that we have in place for your regular parcel. So, yes, I would believe that a massive amount of distribution taking place all of a sudden would certainly strange FedEx as a organization but the van delivering packages to you from Amazon or from myStore, or any of the stores that service us is not the van who is going to be carrying these products to the end locations. Even the other vaccine, although it doesn't require the same -20 Celsius or whatever temperature requirement that the Pfizer one does, it does still require refrigerated storage on its way to the end point.Jay:I think it's a lot of people circling the word logistics and saying everything under this is going to be affected, but within logistics, there's so many different styles of shipping or needs around shipping. And for that reason, not everything in a Venn diagram of like who services what, in large part, the cold chain network is not really one that is as easily affected or would affect the networks that you and I typically expect our packages to come through.Stephanie:Got it. Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't read too much into it, but I'm like, "That's a good black swan event to prepare for, for some brands then if they do do the cold chain shipping."Jay:If you're buying food subscriptions and things like that from your... Like Blue Apron or one of these, yeah, you're more likely to, but you know what, more of that is actually the result of limited supply of dry ice. And that's the result... I can get into all of that, but the dry ice shortage is a result of less driving, which means lower cost of oil, which means less drilling for oil, which means less petroleum byproducts, which means less carbon dioxide, which ultimately means less frozen carbon dioxide, which is dry ice. So yes, there aren't aspects of the industry that will be affected, but the underwear that you're ordering from Amazon should not be affected by a ramp up in cold chain transit volume overall.Stephanie:True, good. I was worried about that. I really need my underwear on time.Jay:Yeah. Exactly.Stephanie:All right. Cool. The one thing I was thinking about too, when it comes to logistics, if I'm a new brand, and I'm thinking about having a 3PL to work with, what are some things that I need to get in order before going that route? Because I can imagine some companies coming to you with it being chaos behind the scenes, and you're like, "I can't work with you until you at least have this, this and this in order for us to plug and play." How should a brand prepare before even reaching out to 3PLs?Jay:I think a lot of brands will never really give things like their skews and the tags that they used and all of that, like a second thought. They're cobbling together a plan, and then you're two or three years in, and you've got a store with three different naming conventions and all that. And clean data is really what makes the world run smoothly in the logistics world. And so if there's not a really strong focus on attention to that, you end up with a pretty significant issue trying to work with the 3PLs, because you have to go back and clean all that up. So most of my suggestion is, look, try to think through that and it's the spring cleaning exercise that I think a lot of brands have or should go through every year looking back and saying, "Are the ways that I structure my data and my reporting the way that will allow me to be really successful at scale?"Jay:And if the answer is no to any of that, then go back to the drawing board and try to make sure that you're adjusting for that because it certainly creates a lot of issues as you try to scale your business up.Stephanie:Yep. That's a good point. Yeah. We've had a couple people on the show talk about making sure that you plan for your data dictionary and have it cleaned up from the very start, if you can, so that you're not trying to fix everything after the fact.Jay:Correct.Stephanie:It sounds like you've definitely been on top of the market or trends or even news, just like we mentioned earlier about the vaccine and stuff. What kind of trends or patterns are you excited about right now over the next couple of years?Jay:I think just in general, there's more attentiveness to better and more targeted marketing that I think people are going to be excited to interact with. So from a just overall perspective, I get excited by the idea that I'm not going to get emails that are just boring and seem to be broadly targeted to everybody. So I think that as more small brands leverage tools like Klaviyo and Shoelace and things like that, I think that just overall marketing as a competitive sport becomes more fun. And as a consumer, it's a lot more fun to watch.Stephanie:Yup. So how are you guys leaning into the targeted marketing a bit more? Jay:I think it's exactly what I said. Just mostly trying to think about, we're not just selling to one person sitting on a couch repeated 3000 times over. We're selling to 3000 different people. So I think if most marketers think that their job is done simply because they came up with a campaign, that's a bummer. I think the more work that gets put in to try to wow people so their brand can connect with them directly, the better. And when it comes to email, the way that we do that is through segmentation and we try to look at all the various segments of behaviors that people who might interact with our brand would be members of, and then trying to evolve the creative that we're developing in a way that seems to speak to them directly. So they feel like when they receive something from us, it's not just this blanket email that says, "Come shop at Texas Humor," it's really touching on the size of clothing that they've purchased in the past or the types of content that they're really into, those types of things.Stephanie:Got it. Okay. So you're looking at types of content or you're maybe showcasing things based on size. What other kinds of behaviors are you segmenting right now to be able to craft your message differently?Jay:The highest or the best way to say it is around recency and frequency. So we look at the various behaviors on a store and try to segment based off of the recency and frequency of them doing whatever that behavior might be. There's a lot more detail than I can probably go into on this show, but I would say that starting with that is a really great way to make sure that you're not just... I think the word email blast or the phrase email blast is a bad phrase because you definitely should not just be blasting people with anything. I think it's really critical that you be more surgical with how you send emails out to your customers. So that way people feel like they're having a conversation with the brands that are emailing them.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I think it'd be really great if I were to get an email that said, "Hey, Stephanie, we saw you're moving to Austin. Here's a bumper sticker for your drive or something." Being able to find data like that that connects with me in a different way of like, "Oh, wow, that's cool. I didn't think about a bumper sticker," or whatever it may be, but because you know a little bit about me like that, I'm going to come to your website and explore a bit more.Jay:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:All right. So let's move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question and you have a minute or less. Are you ready, Jay?Jay:Yup.Stephanie:All right. What's up next on your reading list?Jay:I will say I haven't read much in the last couple of weeks because I've been so focused on getting everything out the door. But I'll probably actually read The Obstacle Is The Way by Ryan Holiday. I read Stillness Is The Key, which was great, but Obstacle Is The Way's one that a lot of people have been telling me I should read.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I read that. It is good. What is one trend or topic or piece of tech that you don't understand that you wish you did?Jay:I wish that I could personally write SQL queries and do more database work and business analysis myself.Stephanie:Yep. That is a good skill to have that I still appreciate to this day. I used to work at Fannie Mae and I'd be all up in SQL all the time, and it comes back even till today where I'm like, "Hey, I at least know what that query is looking for."Jay:Very good.Stephanie:And then the last one, what's up next on your Netflix queue?Jay:I'm eagerly awaiting the next season of The Crown. I know it's like two years away or something like that, but I'm absolutely eagerly awaiting that.Stephanie:Yeah, same. I'm excited about that. All right, Jay. Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks so much for coming on here. Where can people find out more about you and Sauceda Industries?Jay:They can find out more about me on my Twitter account, which you can just find my full name, Jay B Sauceda. I'm everywhere on social media on that username. And then obviously our websites, saucedaindustries.com. So if you have any questions about the logistics space and how it relates to e-commerce or you're just curious about tips on how your brand can best work with the 3PL, happy to answer those or connect you with somebody on my team who can. We'd like to be a resource in our community for e-commerce crane owners, because we know that it's a big jungle out there and we have navigated it once or twice. So to the best of our ability, we'd love to help people take the shortcuts when we know where they are.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much, Jay, and I'll see you in Austin.Jay:Sounds good. Thanks so much.

Jay Taylor is the Managing Director of Leverage, an award-winning digital marketing agency and Certified Google Partner. Leverage partners with its client brands to help them dominate their market with custom-tailored, location-based digital marketing strategies and concentrates on verticals in legal, healthcare, real estate and construction. The goal is to position a client company at the top in terms of search visibility and digital presence for each of a client's geographic locations and practice areas. Key to this effort is utilizing a “hybrid strategy,” embedding websites with obvious search terms and then including other less competitive, highly targeted keywords. Jay provides the example of a “Tampa personal injury attorney,” whose keywords might also include “Tampa dog bite injury attorney” and “Tampa slip and fall attorney.” While great content is essential to successful SEO, the agency recommends adding paid search, PPC, Google Ads . . . all of these combined can be “very effective.: The goal is to get a client's site to show up once on the first search results page, and quite possibly once on the second or third pages, with a possible first position in Organic . . . AND in the paid results above that AND in the right-hand side knowledge panel.  Is that enough? Not yet.  Jay believes reputation management is essential for establishing a successful online presence and even more critical for establishing a successful search presence. Companies need to have a reputation generation and management strategy running alongside their SEO and PPC efforts. The objective is to beat competitors with both the number of reviews AND with a higher average rating. Perception: More ratings + higher average rating = CLEAR WINNER! Jay started his career in marketing working at someone else's agency. He studied finance and marketing while pursuing his MBA and started Leverage Digital upon graduation in 2006-2007, way too soon, he says, in retrospect. A few more years of experience at an established agency would have provided him with the opportunity to learn how run an agency, “from sales to operations to account management,” and to understand the services. He confesses to googling “how to write an invoice” upon securing his first client. Jay gave himself a deadline of “being profitable within 12 months” and two years later started hiring staff so the agency could grow. At the same time, he shifted his personal focus from technical work to working on client strategy. Today, Leverage's creative team handles design and copywriting, the development team handles programming and website development, and the account management team services the accounts. When Covid-19 struck, his agency went remote. They are back in the office now, masked, and with social distancing measures in place. They meet with clients either remotely or in person, depending on the client's preference – but the focus is always “on safety.” Jay defines agency growth more In terms of growing the size of the accounts they have rather than adding to the number of accounts.  Leverage has received a number of industry accolades and honors, including those from the International Davey Awards, Hermes Awards, W3 Awards, and Communicator Awards. In 2018, Leverage was named the 9th fastest growing company owned or led by a University of South Florida alumnus. Jay notes that it important “to focus on your strengths and be the best in your area of expertise and not try to be all things to all people.” Jay can be reached on his agency's website at leveragedigital.com and on LinkedIn at: linkedin.com/jaytennysontaylor Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Jay Taylor. He is the Managing Director of Leverage, based in Tampa, Florida. Welcome to the podcast, Jay. JAY: Thanks, Rob. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. ROB: Fantastic to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about Leverage. What is your specialty? What is your superpower?  JAY: Sure. We are a digitally focused agency here in Tampa Bay. We are specialists in helping our clients engage their customers at the local level with custom tailored location-based digital marketing strategies. Essentially, what that means is that whether our client has one location or 100 locations, we help them dominate each of the markets that they serve in terms of their search visibility and their overall digital presence. ROB: With that in mind, help us flesh out that idea a little bit. What are some examples of types of clients that you tend to work with? JAY: We have concentrations in the legal, healthcare, real estate, and construction verticals. A good example would be a law firm. Let's say a law firm that has five different locations in five different markets. Each of these locations really needs to be front and center whenever somebody is searching for whatever the practice area may be. Let's say they're searching for a personal injury attorney. If their customers search for a personal injury attorney within one of the markets that they serve, we need to make sure that our client is populating at the top of the search results for that particular search within their market. Then we replicate that for each of their markets. Again, whether they're serving one market or five markets or more, we make sure that they dominate the search results in each of those markets. ROB: That's really interesting. For the example you gave of personal injury attorneys, they can be, shall we say, very aggressive marketers. I would imagine some of those search terms are pretty competitive. What is the state of the art in 2020 to get somebody ranking for the terms they want to rank for in a local market? JAY: That's an excellent question. Everyone tends to go after the obvious search terms. We actually try to avoid those. We try to help our clients outmaneuver their competition in terms of the search terms or keywords that they're going after. Sticking with the personal injury example, a law firm here in Tampa that specializes in personal injury are going to, in most cases, want to target “Tampa personal injury lawyer.” That's an obvious term that all of their competition is going to be going after. It's very competitive, and probably not the best use of resources. What we would recommend or advise is, hey, instead of putting all our resources into going after a handful of highly competitive keywords, let's go after lots of less competitive, highly targeted keywords. Let's go after “Tampa dog bite injury attorney” or something along those lines, or “Tampa slip and fall attorney,” something that's not as obvious and not something that all of your competitors are also going after. By having that what we call hybrid approach where, yes, we're going after the competitive search terms as well, but we're also going after a lot of the less competitive, more targeted search terms – and by more targeted, I mean they'll convert at a higher rate – we are able to help our clients compete at a lower cost and also outmaneuver their competition. ROB: That sounds like a meaningful long-tail strategy. That informs a little bit of what terms you're targeting, but sticking a little bit into how are you targeting, in 2020 is this still a game of content marketing? Is it crafting specific pages really well? Are there supplemental non-SEO strategies that are coming to bear there? JAY: Absolutely, all of the above. Content marketing is a significant component if we're talking about organic search or search engine optimization. Content really is the foundation of a successful SEO campaign. We do recommend adding a paid search component. SEO and paid search or PPC or Google Ads, whatever you want to call it, combined can be very effective. What we like to do is help our client literally dominate the search results page for each of the keywords that they target. What I mean by that is, instead of just showing up once on the search results page – let's say they show up once in the second or third, maybe even the first position in organic. We also want them to show up in the paid results right above that, and we also want them to show up in the knowledge panel on the right hand side. We refer to that essentially as the holy grail, if you will. We have them listed three times on the Google search results page for one single keyword. And if we can replicate that for 20 keywords or 30 keywords, that is a very effective overall search marketing strategy that consists of both organic and paid search. ROB: Makes plenty of sense. One thing we've often heard when it comes to local marketing is the challenge of local reputation management, of ensuring that your contact information, whether due to a lack of maintenance or due to maliciousness, is not being shown as incorrect. Is there much of a trend around the need for reputation, or is Google getting better about that, and Bing and Yelp and so on? JAY: Reputation management is critical in terms of establishing a successful online presence in general. I believe it's even more critical when we're talking about establishing a successful search presence. What we advise our clients is that you cannot have a successful search presence without also having a great online reputation. We typically advise having a reputation management strategy in place that coincides with your SEO and PPC efforts. When somebody finds your website on Google, as an example, they see that you have fifty 5-star reviews while your competitors probably have fewer reviews than that, and they're probably going to be somewhere right around 3 to 4 stars while you're closer to 5 stars. Because of the volume of reviews that our client has and because their overall rating is going to typically be higher than their competition, they're going to be the clear winner from a perception standpoint that a prospective customer might have when they find them after performing a search. ROB: Reviews have certainly become a battleground for getting noticed. These days, some businesses almost have so many growing reviews that there's a question of authenticity around that. How are you seeing that question of, “Are these reviews for real?” And sometimes maybe they're even not for a competitor. JAY: That's interesting. One thing that I see is sometimes all of the reviews will come from people who work for the company. That's great; it's great to get feedback from your employees, from your staff, and it'll give you that 5-star rating on Google in particular. That is good to a certain extent. There's nothing wrong with getting reviews from your employees, again, getting positive feedback. But at the same time, that's not what your customers are looking for. If they dig a little further and they start to actually read the reviews, they're going to quickly discover these aren't reviews coming from other customers. These are reviews coming from employees of the company, and they're probably not going to have much faith in those reviews. It's much more effective, much more powerful to have reviews from actual customers. It's pretty obvious when a real customer is leaving a review versus somebody that is not being authentic. Sometimes you'll see a review that's way over the top and it almost sounds like it came straight from the owner. And in some cases it might have. It's pretty obvious. I definitely would not recommend that. We recommend developing a review generation strategy, having a system, a program in place to request legitimate reviews from legitimate customers. That's the best way to handle it. ROB: So getting reviews just becomes a process you execute as a business, just like you would pay your bills and order supplies and whatnot. JAY: Absolutely. It just becomes a part of your marketing strategy. ROB: Perfect. Jay, if we rewind a little bit, what is the origin story of Leverage? How did you get into this business? JAY: It's a pretty long story, so I'll give you the short and sweet version. While I was getting my MBA, I figured out that I wanted to start working in the marketing and advertising industry. I got a job working at an ad agency here in Tampa and really fell in love with the work, fell in love with the day to day challenges. I was studying both financing and marketing while I was getting my MBA, so I was learning the theoretical side of marketing, but I was also getting the practical experience at my job. This was right around 2006-2007, and then the recession hit and I said, “Probably not the best time to start a business, but I've always wanted to start a business.” At that point in time, I was right out of school. Really didn't have a lot to lose at that time of my life. So, I said, “I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to do it now because it's now or never.” That was my mindset. I took what I learned in school, I took what I learned working at that advertising agency, and I used that to help launch Leverage. This was in 2008. At that point in time it was just me, and I was working out of my house. Bootstrapped. I didn't take any loans. I didn't borrow any money from my parents or anyone. I really started with a few hundred bucks and used that to purchase my equipment, purchase the necessary software. I did everything. I designed the websites, I programmed the websites, I did the SEO, I ran the Google AdWords, as it was called at that time. I did everything. Then after doing that for a little while, I realized, “If I want to grow, I have to start to hire.” I also realized that I really enjoyed working on the strategy side of things with clients, and if I was building websites and doing a lot of the technical work, I didn't really have time to work with my clients and communicate with my clients and work with them on developing their marketing strategy and overseeing that. So, I started to hire and fill those roles that were needed to meet our clients' needs and ensure that we were providing them with the best outcomes, because I certainly wasn't the best graphic designer. I certainly wasn't the best programmer. I went to school for business. I didn't go to school for these things. So, I hired experts who did, and here we are. It's been a long road, but a good journey, a fun journey. ROB: At what point on that journey did it become clear to you that this was going to be able to be more than an experiment and a “why not?” and that you were probably going to be doing this thing for a while? What did that look like? JAY: I gave myself one year and I said, “I want to build a profitable business within 12 months. I have to be able to support myself within 12 months, and if I cannot support myself within 12 months – meaning be able to comfortably pay my rent, buy my groceries, have food on the table, put gas in my car – if I can't do those things after 12 months comfortably, then I'm going to go get a job.” So, to answer your question, I gave myself a 12-month deadline and I was able to meet those goals. I was able to get to a point after that first year where I was still working out of my house, but it was comfortable. It wasn't a situation where I felt like I was being stretched too thin. By Year 2, I was able to rent my first office. By Year 3, I was able to begin hiring employees. Year 1 was by far the toughest, and then after Year 1, I really started to gain some traction and go from being a solopreneur, as it's called, to building a team and having a legitimate operation. ROB: I'm going to press in a little bit. I think a lot of people would want to know – just wondering how other people are handling work life and structure as we're 6 months into this COVID pandemic. How did you first adjust your team structure and working patterns, and what does that look like for you now, in October 2020? JAY: We went remote for a while, especially when things heated up in terms of the pandemic, when things got really bad there for a little while. We went remote. We thought that that was the responsible thing to do, the prudent thing to do. It was challenging because we're a very collaborative environment. We're in the office every day. So, it was challenging, and we really relied on technology to help us get through that. Lots of Zoom calls. As of today, we are for the most part back in the office. We've altered the way the office is situated so that everybody remains 6 feet apart. Everyone's wearing masks. It's a very safe environment. We want everybody here so that the collaboration can continue. And yes, you can collaborate through Slack and other means, but that face-to-face interaction I feel really helps us deliver the best outcomes for our clients, and ultimately that's what we're here for: our clients. So, we maintain a safe environment, but without sacrificing that collaboration that really allows us to achieve the best outcomes for our clients. ROB: That's really helpful context there. What are you seeing in terms of clients and their receptiveness to meet? You mentioned you have multi-city clients, so some of them I'm sure you would get on planes to talk to. Where are clients at in this day and age? JAY: For the most part, they're fine meeting via Zoom. We have meetings pretty much every day with clients via Zoom. It's worked out just fine. A lot of our clients are not local. That was not uncommon before, so it really hasn't impacted the way we do things now. But we do still meet with clients in person here at our office in Tampa if they're local and they prefer to meet in person – of course, adhering to social distancing guidelines. So, it's a little bit of a mix. But I would say that our clients who are local do have a preference in some cases, still, to meet face to face. ROB: Got it. Little bit of everything, and I'm sure it comes and goes a little bit. JAY: And Rob, I just want to mention this. At the end of the day, we're here because of our clients. We try to be flexible and meet our clients the way they want to meet. If they prefer to meet by Zoom, then that's what we do. If they prefer to meet in person, then we make that work as well. Ultimately, taking care of them is our number one priority. ROB: Absolutely. Jay, when you reflect on the life of Leverage so far, what are some things you might do differently if you were starting from scratch today? JAY: [laughs] I laugh because that is a very easy question to answer. I would have stayed with the agency that I started with a little bit longer. I think I probably jumped in with both feet a little prematurely. I think there would've been a lot of value in continuing to work with that agency, and if not that agency, another established agency to gain more experience and just learn more about the business before going out on my own. But of course, like every twenty-something, I thought I knew everything. I thought I had it all figured out. At that age you tend to be very confident in yourself and your capabilities, even though you probably don't know as much as you think you do. I suffered from that affliction and decided I was going to do it right then and there. So definitely getting a little bit more agency experience before venturing out on my own is what I would have done differently in hindsight. ROB: What are some of the things you think you might have learned staying and learning in that agency environment faster than you did on your own, or you had to maybe take some lumps? JAY: I think there were probably a number of things. I think I would've learned a bit more about the business itself. Just how to run an agency, and just the simple – everything from sales to operations to account management, and then of course the actual services themselves. I think I probably would've learned a lot more in all of those areas. I definitely took the more challenging road, which was basically “just figure it out as you go.” I remember when I first started the agency – this was probably within a few weeks, maybe a month of starting the agency. Landed my first client, and I had to google how to create an invoice. I had never created an invoice before. Google was a great resource for me at this time. This, again, is in 2008. So I googled “how to create an invoice.” I did not even know how to create an invoice because I'd never had a reason to create an invoice before. Just things like that. ROB: You might not even know how to get money from people. At least you knew that you needed to send an invoice, so that's helpful. You learned some in the other agency. It's a good start for sure. You started off – you mentioned that 2008 timeline. I think until recently you were known as Leverage Digital. I'm sure when you mention something like a personal injury attorney, there's probably a steady pull to get into other lines of business. I think attorneys are very famously – out-of-home advertising, buses, billboards, you name it. How have you decided which lines of business to open up and do and which ones to still stay out of? JAY: In terms of the types of services that we offer and the channels that we focus on? ROB: Yes. JAY: You referenced our recent brand refresh from Leverage Digital to Leverage. We did that because Leverage is easier to recall, it's easier to say. There's too many syllables in Leverage Digital. Even hard for me to say, even though I've been saying it for over 10 years. So, we dropped “Digital” for those reasons, and also because we feel digital is becoming somewhat antiquated. 10 years ago, it made sense to have that in the name, and now I think digital is expected if you're a marketing agency. I don't think there's a marketing agency – at least there shouldn't be – on the planet that doesn't do digital. That used to be a unique characteristic of ours; I don't think digital is unique to us anymore. So, we dropped it for those reasons. But we still decided to focus on digital because that is what we excel at. A lot of agencies that have started doing digital over the last few years, they're still learning it. They don't really know the space yet. They don't really understand it. There's still a lot of trial and error and a lot of testing, whereas we've been doing it for over a decade. It's in our DNA. It's what we do. There's really no reason for us to get outside of that and to start doing billboards and outdoor advertising and things like that. I truthfully am not interested in doing those types of things. Of course, we could if a client asked. We always want to be accommodating and we'll help them, but that's not really our focus. That's not what we excel at. I think it's really important to focus on your strengths and be the best in your area of expertise and not try to be all things to all people. ROB: That definitely makes sense. The focus thing, you were even able to categorize early on some of the vertical markets you work in most often. There were plenty of things we didn't hear. Some people go deep into auto dealerships. Some people go deep into restaurant marketing, multi-location restaurants, franchises, etc. So, there's definitely some focus there. When we look at what's next for you and for Leverage, if people look you up, at least on LinkedIn, it looks like you've got a few people that work with you on this thing. So, what is coming up next for Leverage or broader in marketing that you are excited about?  JAY: With the pandemic and some of the external factors that we've all been dealing with for the last year, or at least for 2020, digital channels are really becoming more competitive because budgets are shifting more and more to digital. Advertisers are – as the example we cited earlier regarding billboards, they're less inclined to get a billboard because there's less people on the roads. That marketing budget has to go somewhere. If it's not going to billboards, it's not going to tradeshows, it's not going to conferences – it's going to digital. That is making digital more competitive, but it's also creating opportunities for digitally focused agencies like ours. We're well positioned to help our clients compete and remain dominant players in the markets that they serve, and we're also well positioned to help clients that we don't yet work with become dominant players in the markets they serve because we have that expertise in digital and we've been doing it for so long. ROB: That makes perfect sense. How do you think about, within the agency, scaling up? When you think about the next 25% of people you're going to bring on board to serve your clients well, how do you think about structuring? Are you in a pod structure when it comes to clients? Do you have more departmental responsibilities and more vertical focus – this person focuses on content, this person focuses on creative, etc.? JAY: The latter. Basically we have our development team and then we have our creative team. Our creative team handles the graphic design and copywriting. Our development team obviously handles the programming and development of websites. We have our account management team that handles account servicing. And I'll tell you, in terms of scaling, I'm not so interested in scaling in terms of growing the size of our agency as much as I am in growing the size of the accounts that we work with. We're not a volume-based agency. We're more selective about who we work with. We prefer to have fewer, larger accounts than having lots of small accounts, if that makes sense. By doing that, we're able to provide our clients with a very high level of service. And that's really what it's all about for us: the level of service that we provide. If we have lots of clients, then we're going to have to have lots of people to service those clients, and they're probably not going to get the same level of service because we're managing so many different strategies for so many different accounts. By having just a few larger accounts that we can really learn and invest in and invest our resources into, we essentially are able to function almost like an outsourced marketing department for our clients. And they get the same level of service and they get the same or better outcomes than if they were trying to do everything in-house. ROB: That's great to think about the benefit, even for your team, of giving them the ability to focus on serving a client well rather than having to switch contexts between serving 50 clients, and maybe something slips and then you're serving more clients not as well as you'd like to. JAY: That's right. I've learned over the years that whether a client is spending $1,000 a month with you or $100,000 a month with you, their expectations are not that much different. Everybody wants to get great results. Everybody wants great service. There's no wrong or right way to do it; it's just the way we do it, we've discovered that we want to be able to give our clients the best level of service and the best possible outcomes. But we're realistic and we know we can't do that if we're spread so thin because we're working with a high volume of accounts. So we really prefer to be selective, make sure that we're the right fit for them and they're the right fit for us, and that we can deliver on their expectations. ROB: Got it. That's perfect, Jay. When people want to find you and they want to find Leverage, where should they go to track you down? JAY: Our website is leveragedigital.com, and I can also be found on LinkedIn. I'm going to try to do this from memory – I might get it wrong, but I think it's linkedin.com/jaytennysontaylor. ROB: Excellent. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jay, and I hope people will look you up. I learned a lot, and hopefully we all will together. JAY: My pleasure, Rob. Thank you for having me on. ROB: Be well. Thanks. JAY: Thanks. You too. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Jay Owen, Founder and CEO at Design Extensions, started building basic websites at age 17. He worked for a number of years as a “solopreneur,” hiring contractors as needed, and, as a company, made as much as six figures. When the economy collapsed in 2008, Jay's business was still doing well. He looked around. People were losing jobs. Things were in crisis. Idea? He'd create a full-time job for somebody. His StoryBrand Certified Agency and HubSpot Goal Partner has been in business and growing for over 20 years. Today, Design Extensions employs about 20 people, a great size because Jay has been able to create scalable systems that don't break with the absence of one person. In the past 5 years, following Mike Michalowicz's book, Clockwork, the premise of which is that there should be no one person in which the company is dependent, Jay has “replaced himself” at every level. The company can now survive, even if Jay is gone for as long as 30 days. Jay says, “A lot of business owners find marketing very confusing and expensive,” and it often does not work. He explains that the agency's job is not to build websites, put pixels on a screen, or write good content for clients. Applying Design Extensions' proven growth strategies to clients' businesses helps them grow – by clarifying their messages and developing and executing effective plans, the agency enables clients to gain attention and acquire customers. The agency plans to add a consultancy arm to provide coaching and strategy direction, to make sure businesses have clear growth plans for both marketing and business fundamentals.  In this interview, Jay recommends a number of books that have been pivotal for his agency. The agency's messaging is built around Donald Miler's “StoryBrand,” as described in his book, Building a StoryBrand. Jay says that most people talk about themselves too much when they should talk about the customer's problem and how the company's solution can help the customer win. The customer needs to be the hero of the story. When Design Extensions changed the message on its homepage  to align with StoryBrand concepts, incoming leads doubled. Telling the one thing that makes a company “special” is rarely all that special. Three unique things can become very special.  Kim Scott's Radical Candor inspired Jay to have the courage to “be exceptionally clear with where improvement needs to happen,” as long as that correction was paired with caring immensely for the individual. Jay believes it is his “responsibility to create a space where people can fail without failing catastrophically.” Little failures will make people stronger. Gino Wickman's Traction provided the framework for the processes, procedures, and systems needed to make his business scalable and long-lasting. His final hiring interview, from Dave Ramsey's EntreLeadership, involves Jay and his wife taking the prospect and spouse to dinner. Jay's book, Building a Business that Lasts (Without Sacrificing Family) is currently available on his website, jayowenlive.com, for the cost of shipping and handling. He has a podcast of the same title available on that website and he is on “all the social media.  Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Jay Owen, Founder and CEO at Design Extensions based in St. Augustine, Florida. Welcome to the podcast, Jay. JAY: Thanks for having me, Rob. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don't you tell us about Design Extensions and what superpower you all bring to the marketing agency world? JAY: Absolutely. I find that a lot of business owners end up in a situation where marketing is very confusing and expensive. They're not going to waste a lot of time and marketing on money that doesn't work, so what we do is help them clarify their message and then put together the right plan and then execute that plan so they can get attention and acquire customers. We've been doing that for the past 21 years, and we've grown every single year. We love taking those same business growth strategies we've used for ourselves and applying those to other businesses to help them grow. That's our focus. ROB: You've kept the pitch pretty tight. I think that speaks to what you might be able to do for someone else. And 20 years is a while to keep the same business operating, and particularly in the marketing world, where things keep on moving. What are some of the constants that have been true throughout the life o the company, and what are some of the changes you've seen that you've been able to incorporate into your own story? JAY: Gosh, so much has changed over time. When I started this thing, first, I was only 17, so I had no idea what I was doing. I was just building basic websites at the time. If that's all we still did today, we would probably be in pretty big trouble as far as the company goes. Plus, that first year I only made about $5,000 in total revenue, and that wouldn't work these days. [laughs] A lot has changed. This is probably one of the most dynamic industries that exists with regards to the speed of change. When I started this business, AltaVista was one of the leading search engines. Yahoo was the king of the internet. AOL was a monster player still. Now the landscape is totally different. There were no iPhones back then. There were no mobile sites. You couldn't have an application on the web. The idea of having a Software-as-a-Service business online was not a thing. All of that has changed over time, and we've just had to adapt with it. Ultimately, it's rooted in what our mission is. This is what I tell our team all the time. Our job is not to build websites for people. Our job is not to put pixels on the screen. Our job is not even to write good words for them. Our job is to help other people grow their business. Now, that often looks like some of the things that we do, like help people clarify their message so they can have a clean, clear message that actually gets attention. It looks like building websites. It looks like running marketing campaigns. It looks like developing applications. But the root of it all is, are we helping people grow their business, yes or no? If the answer is no, that's not a service we should offer anymore. That's really been the guiding light, that clarity of mission over time. But gosh, I've learned a lot along the way. ROB: Absolutely. Is there maybe a service that you did stop offering with that degree of clarity where you came to a moment and said, “We shouldn't do that anymore”? Is there an example we could look at? JAY: It's funny because there's one specific one that just happened recently. We'd not been offering this service for a while, but my office admin was going through some expenses and cleaning out some company stuff and said, “Hey, do we need this ‘print@designextensions.com' email address anymore?” We're not really doing print work anymore. We used to do a lot of print work back in the day, and print is still needed sometimes; I'm not one of these digital marketing guys that believes all of traditional marketing of print and billboards and radio and TV are useless. They're not useless. They have a place. They're often overpriced, but that's a different situation. But we don't do that at all anymore. We don't print materials for clients; we'll send them out if they need to be. So that's a service that we ended up cutting. It wasn't in the best interest of us or our clients and it doesn't exist anymore for us. ROB: Even though in a moment, it might be the most reliable time to reach somebody with some direct mail. JAY: Yeah, I'm not opposed to direct mail at all. There's plenty of opportunities for these kind of things, like I said. It just didn't align correctly with our vision as a service. But with that said, we might help somebody craft the message that's going to go on their direct mail. For example, one of the biggest problems most people have is they talk about themselves too much. Really what they should do is talk about the problem that their customer is encountering and how their solution is going to help them solve that problem and help the customer win the day. We often want to position ourselves as the hero of the story, and really the customer needs to be the hero of the story. So even with something like direct mail, just changing some of the words that you use on those postcards or flyers or brochures can have a massive impact on the outcome. That's where our focus is more on versus actually producing the deliverable in that case. ROB: You mentioned that “hero of the story” language and framework. That's definitely become more prominent. It's strange, because it's the most timeless of stories, but it's become much more prominent recently. Have you seen an evolution in understanding of how to build a good story over the life of the business? JAY: Yeah. I've always said that everybody's selling something; it's just a matter of what. Our job is to understand that and help tell the story to basically get the customer to buy. But over time, one of the things that's been hugely helpful for us is a framework called StoryBrand by a guy named Donald Miller. He wrote a book called Building a StoryBrand, and we use that framework in our messaging now. It's stuff that we essentially already knew, and they're not totally new ideas. It's just a matter of packaging it together in a way that's so clear that it really, really works. We started using this framework for ourselves, and just by changing our messaging on our homepage, we doubled our incoming leads. When we found that out for ourselves, we thought, “Hold on, this works really well. We should do this for everybody.” So now we're actually a StoryBrand Certified Agency, and that's one of the power cards in our deck, if you will, of things that are really helpful when we're helping a company grow. ROB: It's a big name behind that. I think sometimes when agencies look at that sort of program, they worry that if they affiliate with that instead of maybe cultivating their own secret sauce, they're going to become a commodity. How have you looked at using the StoryBrand to elevate rather than reduce value of what you do? JAY: Great question. I think I have had those same concerns over time, and there certainly are pieces of the puzzle that we go, “Hey, this is how we do it that's exclusive to us.” But I've been in business long enough to know that there's only so many ways that a wheel's going to go around, and sometimes you just need a clear plan on how to get that done. I think a lot of companies, regardless of whether they're a marketing agency or any other type of business, are looking for that one thing that differentiates them. I think that's a mistake because I think it's very rare that one thing differentiates a company. What I do believe is that if you take three unique things and put them together, it becomes very special. For us, for example, three of our uniques would be something like we're a StoryBrand Certified Agency, we're a HubSpot Goal Partner, and we've been in business and grown for over 20 years in a row. If you combine those three things together, there's only about three or four agencies in the entire country that fit into that model. That's where there starts to become a uniqueness. And just because we're tied onto the HubSpot bucket for one thing or tied onto the StoryBrand framework for this thing, I don't think that makes us a commodity at all. I think that it's a combination of knowing how to use those things across multiple areas that actually gives us a lot of strength, and we can take strength from multiple other experts in order to make that happen. ROB: I've heard that referred to sometimes as talent stacking. To be able to take that large Venn diagram with big circles – there's even a decent number of agencies that have been around for 20 years; not a ton, but some – but some of them are still trying to sell you on 15-year-old SEO tactics, and that might not be such a good idea. HubSpot also gives you potentially the differentiation of some of the different levels. Is that something you're conscious of as you're building the business? You're not going to drive a customer to something that's not helpful to them, but some eyes on when you're ready to level up the HubSpot to show that you have been even more successful than some people with HubSpot? JAY: Yeah. The other thing too, though, is I will drop either one of those things if I don't think they're the best for our customers anymore. HubSpot, for example, we were a HubSpot Partner years and years ago, and it just wasn't the right fit for our client base at the time. We ended up dropping it and using other tools that we piecemealed together. Now we've come back to it, and HubSpot's changed a lot over the years too. Now they have a great free entry level product, so we can put lower end clients on it that might not be ready for a very expensive marketing suite where they're paying $1,000+ a month just for their software, but they can enter on the free level and it works really well. Ultimately, for me, we're going to use whatever tools or services we think are the best fit for the client. I always tell my team, I couldn't care less how we did it before; all I care about is what the best way is to do it. We're going to develop what we believe is the best practice across all these different disciplines, and we're going to keep doing it that way until we find a better way. And as soon as we find a better way, we're going to change it. That's how I operate. If anything, I have to temper that a little bit because I am very comfortable with change, and that can be disruptive for a team if you don't give them some stability over time. ROB: It's that balance of both change, but also there's probably an inversion point that you've had to go through in the life of the business. There's one point where in order to grow things beyond yourself, you have to define a process and have somebody follow it. And then there's a limit where you now have people who understand these tools better than you and have to be able to come to you and come to the organization and recommend change and a better way to do that. How do you think about getting that expert feedback from your team back into the agency, now that you're a couple of steps up in scale? JAY: I like how Andy Stanley puts it. He says as organizational authority increases, individual competencies decrease. I think you could also say as an organization's size grows, even if you were the one who did all the things at the beginning, which I was, at some point you're no longer the best anymore. It's funny because it's an interesting transition where – I used to always sell clients back in the day that they got to deal with me the entire time. That was the pitch. The pitch was, “Hey, the great news is you don't have to deal with a sales rep who's going to hand you to an account manager who's going to hand you to a team who's going to do all these things. You can deal with me from beginning to end.” That was a true advantage at the time, in the same manner that now it's a true advantage that you don't get to work with me anymore. [laughs] Because my best and highest gifts are in overarching strategy; they're not in building a website for you. And the proof is in the pudding because the websites we produce today are a thousand times better than anything we produced 5 or 10 or 15 years ago, and I have nothing to do with them anymore. I think that's the big challenge for a lot of entrepreneurs, especially agency owners, I find, because many agency owners started as a professional in the craft. They were the ones who put the pixels on the screen. They were the ones who wrote the words. At some point you have to transition from being the marketer to being a business builder, and those are different things.  ROB: You indeed mentioned that you started as an individual contributor building websites, and then it morphed and evolved. At what point did you realize that maybe this was going to be a company that could employ some other people and was going to be a long-term thing instead of – I think we start off building websites sometimes – it's a thing you can do. When you're 17, you're like, “I'm going to do this for the next 20 years.” JAY: Right. For me, years ago – gosh, I guess I was probably 21 – I'd just gotten married. I got married pretty young. The company I think at that point was making about $25,000 a year. I was waiting tables on the side and also going to school, and my wife was doing the same. I didn't think I could make it work. I didn't think it was going to be a full-time business. I thought it was really a hobby to some extent, just based on the dollars I was able to bring in. I went to work for my uncle in that season because he ran a successful insurance agency. I thought he would fade out, I would fade in, and why not? It was kind of a silver spoon. It seemed like a good idea. He's got a black Mercedes and a house in the mountains and a house towards the beach. “I would like to have that,” so my 21-year-old self said. But I worked for him for 6 months and hated the insurance industry. One day I came home, and I knew I'd married the right woman when I came home, I was kind of upset, and I said, “Babe, I could do this, and I probably could make a lot of money at it, but I think I'm going to hate it my whole life” and she said, “So quit and do what you love.” I remember that season going, “I wonder if I'll ever have enough work to keep myself busy a whole week.” But what I didn't understand at that time was the difference between owning a business and owning a job. What I really owned at the time was a job, not a business. I didn't pay myself very well and I didn't have very good hours, and I had the opposite of what most people want when they start a business, which is time, money, and freedom. I had none of those things. It took time for me to finally get that working as a solopreneur, if you will. I used a lot of contractors eventually and had my own thing. It was working pretty well. I got up to a point where I was making six figures as a company and feeling pretty comfortable, but then the economy collapsed in 2008. I'd used a lot of contactors but never had a full-time employee. I looked around, and people were losing their jobs everywhere and things were in crisis. My business was actually doing pretty good, because it turns out people need marketing in downturns because they need to get attention and acquire customers. I thought, “I think I can make a job for somebody. I think I could create a full-time position and pay somebody as a W-2 employee.” That was a big change for me at that point over using contractors. So, I did. I created a job. I did a really bad job at knowing how to hire or fire or do anything else, but I learned along the way. And now we have a team of about 20, and it's a great size because – I always said I never wanted to be more than 10 people, but I realized at some point a couple of things. In order for me to create scalable systems that didn't break when one person was absent, I had to be a certain size to pull that off, and I also had to be a certain size so that when one person went on vacation, I didn't get two jobs for the week. There were years where I dreaded the summer because I'd have one person go on vacation and I'm like, “Great, now I have two jobs this week” – which is fine; I'm not scared of the work, but it gets exhausting after a while. Now it's very different because we've worked really hard the last 5 years to make sure there's no one person the company is dependent on, including me. We proof tested that about a month or so ago. I took a 30-day RV trip with my family and didn't work the whole time. That's a big barrier of success for me, even more so than anything money can provide. Once you lose money, you can always go get more of it, but once you lose time, you can't get any more. Especially with my kids growing up fast, that was a big deal for me. That's kind of the story of growing it over time. ROB: When's the next trip? JAY: Next year. I plan to take the same amount of time off pretty much every year. I don't know if we'll do an RV trip every year, but I think it's healthy for the business for me to take that amount of time off. The idea actually came originally from a book called Clockwork by Mike Michalowicz. Same guy that wrote Profit First. It's called Clockwork, and he basically says an owner or a founder needs to be able to leave for 30 days and the company keep functioning, because typically most companies go through a full cycle of business in 30 days. It's the only way that you know that you've actually replaced yourself at every level. The company becomes more valuable, number one, but it also protects the team as well, because what happens if I walk out and get hit by a bus? Does the company collapse in 2 weeks because there's no figurehead anymore? If so, I didn't do a very good job of building a business that lasts for them, and ultimately for my family as well. So that's how I think about it. ROB: Excellent. What was the timeline from when you decided to take that trip and maybe when you started telling people, and then when you actually took it? What was that timespan? JAY: I planned the idea of it before the pandemic, first of all. [laughs] Last year I read this book Clockwork, and over time I had been working my way up to being able to take more time off. First of all, I love the work that I do. I don't need to get away from it. But I do. I say I don't need to – a lot of entrepreneurs are like that. We say we love the work that we do. I love to work all the time. That's great, but our brains actually do need physical rest. That's why we often have these bursts of ideas in the shower or while driving or right before we fall asleep or right after we wake up. There's real science behind this stuff. Our brains are able to come up with things that they wouldn't otherwise come up with when we give them the space to do it. So last year I read this book Clockwork and I thought, “All right, I'm doing that. I've done 2 weeks, so now I'm going to take a full month and see how that works.” My plan was to do that around this time of year this year. I actually ended up taking it earlier because of the pandemic, believe it or not. We sold our house right at the beginning of the pandemic; we have a new one that we're building. So, we had about 3 months where we had nowhere to live and I thought, “This is the time. I'm just going to do it now.” I'd like to say there was some kind of grand plan. I had told the team that was my intention this year and I needed them to be thinking about that, because every time I leave, one of the questions – even if it's just for a week – I always tell the team, “If there's anything you get to where you go, ‘We need to wait till Jay gets back before we can do X, Y, or Z or before we can decide this or figure it out or whatever else,' that's a problem. Whatever that is, write that thing down, and then we need to fix that so that it's no longer dependent on me.” I think that mentality has been a huge driver for our growth. What happens if I'm not here? How do we grow the company? It gives everybody else the opportunity both for success and failure, and that's one of the big mistakes I think a lot of leaders make: they don't want their team to fail. But when you think back, how many things did each of us learn from failure? The answer is a lot. I believe it's actually my responsibility to create space where people can fail without failing catastrophically. I don't want people destroying the company, obviously, but some little failures here or there are good for everybody. ROB: That's such a good lesson there. When you talk about mistakes or maybe things you'd do differently or things you've learned from, what are some other things you've learned along the journey of building Design Extensions that you might do differently if you were starting it up today? JAY: Two big things come to mind. The first is however much time you think you need to hire the right person, you probably should quadruple it because it's so important to get the right people in the right seats. When we rush to hire people because we're in some kind of super busy mode or whatever it is and we think we need to fill a seat, I almost always mess that up. Patience in hiring has been a hard one for me because I'm a very fast mover. I'm like, “All right, let's go. You seem like you could figure that out. Let's make it happen.” So I'm very patient in hiring. The other thing for me personally – this is more of a personal weakness – is being willing to give direct and candid feedback early on. Some people don't have a problem with this at all, but I do. Ultimately I've realized that it's because I want people to like me. I want to just be one of the team. I want to be everybody's friend. I want that so bad that at times, I'm willing to not be clear enough when there's problems, and that is a massive mistake. It is not in anybody's best interest. So, I've had to really work hard at that. A book that really helped me with that was Radical Candor by Kim Scott. She talks about this idea that you can care immensely for someone and be exceptionally clear with where improvement needs to happen. Those things are not counterintuitive. But some people fall off one side of the cliff or the other. They're either exceptionally clear, but they don't seem to care about the people at all – and she calls those people “obnoxiously aggressive” – and the other one, which is where I tend to fall off the cliff, is you show that you care deeply but you are not as clear as you need to be when there's problems, and she calls that person “ruinously empathetic.” Which is interesting because when I was younger I wasn't empathetic at all. I had no empathy. I think through almost 20 years of marriage and five children and 20 years of business, you start to develop – you've walked through enough fire that you do have more empathy for people. But the danger is believing that trying to be super kind to them at the expense of truth is going to be helpful for them, and it almost never is. Not for them, for you, or the company. ROB: It's really good to share both sides of that on Radical Candor, because I think some people have heard it and run into somebody who maybe learned too much of the wrong lessons from it. It's always good to go back to the source and process through these things through our own filter. You mentioned this situation where things are really busy and you really need to hire someone, and you're talking about taking longer to make that hire. To do that, how do you manage the onslaught of work in that season while taking the time you need to make the right hire? JAY: I think a lot of it comes down to being able to think far enough ahead. If I need to hire somebody, the chances are I needed to be thinking about that a month ago or 2 months ago. So, taking the time to evaluate what the issues are for the company and plan for that makes a big difference. I think most people can wing it. If you're scrappy enough and smart enough, you can probably wing it to about 10 people and a million dollars in revenue, but after that things start to fall apart really quickly. For us, one of the big things that helped was a book called Traction by Gino Wickman. I know I'm throwing a lot of books out – which ironically, I used to never read because I'm dyslexic. But they're really, really a helpful framework. I am that traditional entrepreneur that really has a problem with process and procedures and systems. I feel like they're a cage for me. I feel like they're very corporate-y – but they're not. They're required in order to build a scalable business that will last. Traction gave us the framework for that, and as it relates to hiring, what happened is because we set these annual goals and we have these quarterly planning meetings, both as a leadership team and as a full team, we can see ahead of time what the issues are, when we're going to need to hire, and plan for that accordingly. Right now, we're working on hiring a new role, and we're just willing to take the time for it. Matter of fact, one of my team members the other day was like, “We could probably cut that last interview to speed things up.” I'm like, “Nope, not doing it. I'm not cutting the last interview.” I even go to the extent – this sounds kind of crazy, but it's actually great – I stole this from Dave Ramsey out of the book EntreLeadership; I will do a spousal interview at the end. It's not what it sounds like. Basically what happens is my wife and I will go out with whoever the team member is and their spouse, assuming they're married, and we'll just have dinner. The idea behind this is be with somebody in an environment that is not a traditional interview, because most people, including probably you and I if we were in that scenario, exaggerate and are moderate liars in interviews because we just instinctively are trying to put on our best self. When you see people out in the real world at dinner or something, they can still put on their best self, but you start to get a picture. I also think it's important to realize that when you're hiring somebody, if their spouse is like a monster, you might be bringing that into the company too, and you've got to be aware of that. ROB: You've mentioned a lot of books. I think there may be one other book you haven't mentioned yet. I do believe you have a book of your own that we should know about. JAY: Yeah, I do have a book. It was one of those things where everybody kept saying, “You should write a book. You should tell all these stories and put them together in one single plan.” I never felt confident enough to do that, but I finally did it. It's called Building a Business That Lasts. My podcast is actually by the same title. The idea is, what does it take to build a business over time? Most businesses fail in the first year. The vast majority do. Many more fail within the first 5 years, and very, very few make it to the 10-year mark. So on the podcast, for example, I interview people that have been in business for 10 years or more, and selfishly, I learn a lot because I get to talk to other business leaders and entrepreneurs and hear their stories. The book is just my story, my framework of how I have made that work, and the subtitle is important to me, too. It's “without sacrificing family,” because I've seen plenty of people along the way that have grown great businesses at the expense of all of the people around them, especially those closest to them. I probably have risked that at points, but I'm doing my darndest to try and stay married to the same woman my whole life and have kids that grow up and are as well-adjusted as they can be in this crazy world. ROB: For sure. That is excellent and noble and worthwhile. Where should we find that book? JAY: You can get a copy by just going to my website, which is jayowenlive.com. There's a button right there that says, “Get Jay's Book.” We actually have a free offer right now; you just cover the cost of shipping and handling and we'll send that book out to you. Also on my website is my podcast and other materials that might be helpful if you're looking to build a business to last. ROB: Excellent. Jay, what's coming up next for you and Design Extensions that we should be looking forward to you hearing about? JAY: Great question. We are adding a new wing onto the company over the next couple of months and into the next few years. We've always been an agency. What I mean by agency is we do the work for you. But what I've found over time, especially in this new economy as people are starting new things, is they might not be able to afford the agency. They might want to be able to do some things themselves. They might even have some team members in-house that can do some of those things, but they need some guidance along the way. They need a guide who has been through it before and knows how to help them make those things happen. We are in the process, in the very early stages right now, of building onto the agency a consultancy. I see those two things overlapping. The idea is essentially for us to be able to provide coaching and strategy around building a business and making sure you have a clear plan, not just for your marketing, but for business fundamentals as a whole. I run a marketing agency, but you can hear just in this conversation we've had how many things we've talked about as it relates to hiring and firing, teambuilding, how to keep yourself sane in the midst of it all. So. we're going to be building a consultancy on top of the agency. Both of those things, though, really feed well into who we are as a company as a whole, which goes back to that mission of helping other people grow their business. ROB: Fantastic. Jay, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We know where people should find your book; where should they find you and your firm when they're looking to find you, online or otherwise? JAY: They can still just go to my website. That's the main place I want people to go after this interview, jayowenlive.com. My agency is linked to on there, the podcast is linked to on there, the book is linked to on there. Depending on who they are and what they need, those are great places to check me out. And obviously, I'm available on all the social media, so wherever you happen to be, LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram, I'm out there. If you want to connect, you can always find me in the DMs on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn. ROB: That's excellent. Jay Owen, Founder and CEO of Design Extensions, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a pleasure.  JAY: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Rob. ROB: It's a pleasure. Be well. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Join Sam the Movie Mechanic, Jay (It’s a baby WHALE, JAY!), and CORBAN DALLAS!!! as they go through the week’s headlines in comic news in Fab or Flub, review the dark and spooky House of Penance, and share their most personal spooky and creepy stories. Do you have the guts to watch all the way […] The post Issue #70 Happy Halloween! Vin Diesel is Bloodshot, Scary Stories, and More! appeared first on CouchCrunchers.com - TV & Movie Reviews.

While we wait for the big FAQ, we're back with another episode and Jay and Andrew are still screwing up. In our Crystal Stacks segment, the boys test how stealthy an entire mechanized GSC force can be!     Seizes of the Month:   Jay: It's important to read the fine print of a tournament pack...so maybe...do that! Andrew: Be sure to budget those command points!     Crystal Stacks:   Jay and Andrew apply the rule of cool to a Genestealer Cult list and answer the questions, can you go full Goliath and win? The answer... may surprise you.     GSC Bladed Cog Brigade   HQ: Jackal Alphus: jackal sniper rifles - 70   HQ: Primus: needle pistol, bonesword, toxin injector claw, blasting charges - 75   HQ: Magus: Force Stave - 80   Troops: x10 Neophyte Hybrids: x6 autoguns, x2 mining lasers, x2 grenade launchers, blasting charges - 80   Troops: x10 Neophyte Hybrids: x6 autoguns, x2 mining lasers, x2 grenade launchers, blasting charges - 80   Troops: x10 Neophyte Hybrids: x6 autoguns, x2 mining lasers, x2 grenade launchers, blasting charges - 80   Troops: x5 Acolyte Hybrids: x5 hand flamers, x5 rending claws and cultist knives, blasting charges, demolition charge - 45   Troops: x5 Acolyte Hybrids: x5 hand flamers, x5 rending claws and cultist knives, blasting charges, demolition charge - 45   Troops: x5 Acolyte Hybrids: x5 hand flamers, x5 rending claws and cultist knives, blasting charges, demolition charge - 45   Elite Kelermorph: x3 liberator autostubs - 60   Elite Sanctus: silenced sniper rifle - 60   Elite Nexos: autopistol - 50   Fast Attack: Achilles Ridgerunner: heavy mining laser, x2 heavy stubbers, spotter - 84   Fast Attack: Achilles Ridgerunner: heavy mining laser, x2 heavy stubbers, spotter - 84   Fast Attack: Achilles Ridgerunner: heavy mining laser, x2 heavy stubbers, spotter - 84   Heavy Support: Goliath Rockgrinder: heavy mining laser, drilldozer blade, heavy stubber, cache of demo charges - 115   Heavy Support: Goliath Rockgrinder: heavy mining laser, drilldozer blade, heavy stubber, cache of demo charges - 115   Heavy Support: Goliath Rockgrinder: heavy mining laser, drilldozer blade, heavy stubber, cache of demo charges - 115   Transport Goliath Truck: twin autocannon, heavy stubber, cache of demo charges - 82   Transport Goliath Truck: twin autocannon, heavy stubber, cache of demo charges - 82   Transport Goliath Truck: twin autocannon, heavy stubber, cache of demo charges - 82     GSC Rusted Claw Outrider HQ: Jackal Alphus: jackal sniper rifles - 70   Fast Attack: x6 Atalan Jackals: wolfquad, x5 shotguns and demo charges, mining laser - 102   Fast Attack: x6 Atalan Jackals: wolfquad, x5 shotguns and demo charges, mining laser - 102   Fast Attack: x6 Atalan Jackals: wolfquad, x5 shotguns and demo charges, mining laser - 102   TOTAL: 1989  

I’ve been waxing lyrical about today’s guest since I watched his presentation at the Youpreneur Summit, and I’m super excited to welcome him to the show! Jay Baer is the Founder of Convince and Convert, which is a strategy consulting firm who work with some of the worlds most iconic brands on content strategy, social media strategy, digital strategy and customer experience strategy. Jay also travels to deliver talks, and writes books, but doesn’t consider himself an information marketing specialist. We’re talking about how to increase the word of mouth advertising side of your marketing, and how to turn your customers into volunteer marketers for your business! How do you turn happy customers into increased sales volume? Tune in and find out!   In This Episode How paying to get people into your funnel can cap your success The best way to grow any company Reputation can make or break your business A huge challenge that business owners and entrepreneurs need to solve Getting your customers to do the marketing for you Mapping out your customer’s expectations The 5 different types of talk triggers   “So many people are teaching marketing in the same way now” - Jess “Most of our work is free to the student” - Jay “I started 5 multimillion dollar companies from scratch and never actually tried to get a customer on purpose” - Jay “Reputation is huge in the market” - Jess “The challenge for most people in most businesses is they believe that competency creates conversation” - Jay “We have to be much more proactive and purposeful” - Jay “It’s not so much about uniqueness, it’s about expectation” - Jay   More Jay! www.talktriggers.com www.convinceandconvert.com Twitter - @JayBaer   The Dotties https://smartleaderssell.com/the-dotties/   More Jess! http://bit.ly/SLSGroup https://jessicalorimer.com/supersize-your-sales https://jessicalorimer.com/list-building-legend Content Disclaimer The information contained above is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this article, video or audio are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this article, video or audio. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this article, video or audio. Jessica Lorimer disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this article, video or audio. Disclaimer: Some of these links are for products and services offered by the podcast creator  

Welcome to another episode of The Business Mentor Podcast. In this episode, special guest and founder of ‘Never Ever Too Old’ Ant Knight interviews The Business Mentor himself Jay Dhillion. Discover more about Jay’s journey to success and how he has amassed over 100,000 followers online, built multiple businesses and grown this podcast to be the UK’s number one. Ant and Jay dive into the fundamentals of business and how to create cashflow, before anything else. Understand why making money should be a priority first, before the vision or long-term strategy. Jay shares he first business venture and how he created a recruitment business with over 500 employees and three locations, racking up sales of over £30 million. Jay goes on to talk about how he created a profitable business in just 30 days and to do so you must ‘find the pain’ and find a problem to be solved. Discover more about The Business Mentor Himself, Jay Dhillon KEY TAKEAWAYS Ant Knight - ‘Never ever too old’ community of people taking control of their own lives. If you're not setting out to make money, the chances are you won't make money. 9 times out of 10 your passion won't make you money so ask yourself what will you sell? how much will it make you? and how will you continue your growth? It's okay to make money and once you start making money you'll enjoy it a lot more. Nothing will kill your business more than not making money. If you've got no money, you will not succeed. Look at what your niche is but you should be using Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram. All you need to do is start, grow your following by bringing good content, you have to provide value. All you need is 100 loyal followers. Getting the right mentor is really important, get someone who has been there and done it. Invest in getting knowledge and find like-minded people whose values match yours. Ant: How do you find your customers? Jay: It's easier now with social media and you can find audiences who are directly interested in your product or service. All you need to do is find groups on Facebook or LinkedIn, join them and interact and find your target market Ant: What does consistency mean to you? Jay: It means turning up every day and putting in the work, focusing on your core area and achieving growth. Tips to grow your podcast Put a focus on it and invest your time. Just do it and start now, but see it as a long-term plan. It’s a platform to get your message out, no matter if there are similar podcasts out there. We’re all unique. Don’t worry too much about the content, just get it out there. Five Tips for Starting a Business Look how you can monistise it. Start small if you don’t have a budget. Get on all the social media platforms and create a powerful network. Get a mentor, and if you can’t afford it read as many books as you can. Have the courage to start. BEST MOMENTS   "You don't have to spend two years building a business if you start you can begin making money quickly." "Start with the end in mind." "Go all in, be focused and lock it down." "I highly recommend you create an email list, to de-risk your business." "Do not buy an email list, it's not the best way of marketing." “Build relationships with people but by providing content, you have to offer something in return and If you get a chance to meet someone face to face it’s invaluable.” “I want to record 3000 episodes of my podcast.” “What you want to do, everyone wants to do, just have the courage to do it.” “One keyword to success - Persistence.”   VALUABLE RESOURCES https://www.jay-dhillon.com/ https://www.facebook.com/yourneverevertooold1/ #008 Creating a Profitable Business in 30 Days with Luca Gallone #009 Interview with Personal Branding Expert Lauren Tickner #007 Follow The Money! Jay Shares 9 Key Takeaways from His meeting with soon to be Billionaire Entrepreneur - Grant Cardone #012 - Morning Routine for Success #010 4 Steps To Create A Powerful Social Network The one thing - Gary Keller Slight Edge - Jeff Olson Blue Ocean - W. Chan Kim The 10x Rule: - Grant Cardone The Disruptive Entrepreneur - Rob Moore ABOUT THE HOST Jay Dhillon is a serial entrepreneur, investor and philanthropist based in the UK with a proven track record of growing businesses from start-up to success- and helping others do the same. From humble beginnings, Jay grew his first business from 0-500 employees and three locations, racking up sales of over £30 million – all without any investment other than a small amount of savings. The business went on to acquire major clients such as Landrover, Jaguar, Toyota and New Look, to name a few. Its huge success inevitably brought about outside interest and at the age 33 Jay eventually sold the company to a London investment firm in Doyen Resources. Today, Jay owns several businesses in different sectors and helps entrepreneurs achieve success. A calling to give back and help others led to Jay being chosen for the highly-coveted role as a Prince’s Trust mentor, where his achievements were marked by a personal invitation to Buckingham Palace to meet Prince Charles. After helping several young entrepreneurs to success as a mentor for the Trust, Jay’s burning desire to bring his wisdom and knowledge to a wider audience ultimately triggered the concept of The Business Mentor Podcast. Jay feels that anyone can achieve success in business with the right advice and mentoring and is now sharing his knowledge with his growing audience via his podcast. In the UK alone 95% of business fail within the first five years and Jay’s aim is to reduce that number. Backed with the hard-earned knowledge and experience from his time in business, The Business Mentor Podcast will share Jay’s personal business lessons as well those of other successful entrepreneur guests who share their wisdom and secrets on the show. CONTACT METHOD https://www.jay-dhillon.com/ https://uk.linkedin.com/in/jaydhillon https://www.instagram.com/jaydhillonuk/ https://www.facebook.com/JaydhillonUK/ Jay@businessmentorpodcast.com See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

Interview - Jay Kinder In today’s episode we have Jay Kinder, who has been in real estate for 20 years and started his own independent brokerage company prior to transitioning to eXp Realty. We hear about Jay’s previous experience, why he chose eXp Realty, how eXp differs from other companies and how you can learn more about opportunities with eXp. Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.   In this episode Recruiting and retention challenges as an independent brokerage or large mega agent team Why Facebook comments are not the best way to reach people How many agents the number one franchise system in the world is netting vs. how many agents eXp Realty is netting Agent attraction Importance of speed to market Company culture Roadmap for vetting Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or one of the contacts below to inquire or ask questions. If you are seeking further information, eXp has Lunch and Learn opportunities, weekly live webinars and other resources such as pre-recorded videos that can be sent to you. YouTube videos are also available online. Contact Jay Kinder, email at Jay@Jaykinder.com Contact Gene Frederick, text 703-338-1515 Noteworthy “It just seems more real so we just thought all in all it is a better platform. It just made sense to us to be at eXp.” “I think people think, you know, it's all about how much you're putting into it. It's incredible how quickly it grows underneath you with people that you're not talking to every single day.” “Essentially, if you look at a cloud-based brokerage like eXp Realty your single cap gives you access nationwide because it's a single brokerage, not each office is independently owned and operated like in a franchise system.”   PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION KEVIN: Welcome to the show. Jay how are you. JAY: I'm doing great. Kevin how are you doing buddy. KEVIN: Fantastic looking for this conversation. I think a lot of people are when they listen to this. Before we get into sort of the meat of the topic on the eXp for agents that may not know your background why don't you give a quick bio and background before we jump into the details. JAY: Yes sure. I've been doing this 20 years now so I got into a real estate a pretty young age. My dad owned a, bought actually in 1997 a Coldwell banker franchise from being an independent. And then I got into a real estate late that year. And so about 20 years now that I've been selling real estate I was very fortunate to invest in myself go to every conference anybody who sold anything for real estate agents. They have my credit card. That's for sure. I was fortunate to be pretty successful early on. My first you know four five years were pretty good. I ended up I think number two in the world for Coldwell banker for several years. Selling I think at the peak of my career five hundred and something homes kind of went on to start a coaching and consulting company with my business partner Mike Reese who is also a real estate agent. I kind of got him into real estate and we just found that we really enjoyed helping real estate agents grow their business. That was something we were very passionate about. We started our own company together as well probably in 2014. I think officially we restarted up and brand new brokerage together. We both had our company separate but we put one together and started growing that in about 2015 16 17 and then obviously last year we joined the eXp. KEVIN: So for listeners I want to give some context to this Jay and I think first met we were trying to figure it out before we started recording somewhere around 2004. We were both in Austin, Texas. I was living in Austin at the time. Jay was down from Lawton, Oklahoma and Chad Goldwasser had put together, I can't remember what Keller Williams event it was but there was an event and there were about 15 or 20 of us at dinner and Jay happened to be sitting across from here next to me because I remember you made this comment and I think it's very very apropos for the conversation today which is you've been successful like you just talked about Coldwell banker. You made the comment. You said I'm happy to come learn. I get invited every time there's an event. It may have a mega camp or something like that by Gary Keller. You never changed and I want for listeners to say that again. I mean from 2004 when Jay and I first met he had already been courted by Keller Williams and Gary Keller personally for years and now it's 2017 all of a sudden after what you just described and the coaching and consulting business you and Michael launched a brokerage business. You made a hard turn and double down so to speak on the eXp realty. Let's talk about why. What was the genesis for that decision. JAY: The genesis for that decision was you know as an independent you know of course if you would asked me if I was interested in joining any brokerage I would have been adamantly opposed to it. I consider myself lucky that I was even open minded enough to consider it as an option because I wasn't certainly looking to join any other brokerage once we went independent and 2011 and then we started our own brokerage that was independent. There were just you know that was a direction that we were going and we had a brand that we were building and we wanted to expand that brand across the country and we weren't looking to join a brokerage that wasn't a problem that we were trying to solve what problem we were trying to solve. And I think what really made us have to really consider eXp was the recruiting and retention challenge that you have as an independent brokerage or as a large mega agent team however you want to look at us was something that we just consistently fought you know year in and year out. And when we look at the eXp model it really was just a better platform for us to kind of expand our real estate business across the country as we were intending to do. It just made a lot more sense to do it at the eXp. There was a better value proposition that we could align to what we were already offering in terms of value. And there was just a better business model that was already in place with publicly traded company, having shares and ownership in equity which we wanted to incorporate into our model that we really didn't have a good way to do that. And I think most agents don't really buy in for the long term of an independent because there's never really you know what's the true value of that independent. You know if you were to even implement some type of equity you know opportunity or whatever there's limited value to that because it's not real. And I think eXp became very obvious which the stock trades for you can go look that up and sell it you know. Obviously after you've invested you can go out and sell that stock. So it just seems more real so we just thought all in all better platform it just made sense to us to be at eXp. KEVIN: You know it's interesting. I ran across the same comment from an independent broker in the Portland area that converted his 30 plus agents in the eXp and I had originally approached him to look for potential acquisitions and or people that might be interested in eXp. Not initially even on his behalf. In other words he made the comment to me send me the information. Let me understand what you guys are all about and what was interesting I sent to him on a Friday. Even before Monday arrived I had some text and call saying hey I'm going to get another call with you. And I got on the call and his comment was the same thing you said which is I don't know how I remain viable as an independent when there is this alternative value proposition. I think that is the big wave that's coming. I know you're seeing it not only with mega mega agents and teams but the independent brokers people that have built solid businesses and we already have numerous examples. I've got a number of them that I've already recorded and will be recording of independents coming into the eXp and everybody says the same thing. And something like to this effect not only retention but the guy in Portland said when I started doing my due diligence I started calling people and when I got to some big franchise recruits that I thought I could get into my firm within the next 12 to 18 months. These are the people that you typically have to court for a while. Every one of them either was already in play for eXp or told them if I move anywhere I'm moving to eXp and that's happening every market across the country. It's an interesting prospect. So Jay if you look at this from the standpoint of equity and you know most agents and I want to kind of let you expand on that. Most agents have either been sold a bill of goods of especially recently that you want to be part of a private company not a public company. I will make the comment I did nine startups out of Silicon Valley including two that went public. That is the most asinine comment by that leader that I've ever heard. I mean unless you are passing out equity like a law firm does two partners where they divvy up the pool of income and profit at the end of the year you're being sold a bill of goods. There's no easier way to say it. If you're drinking the coolaid so strong that you're waving the flag now. Yeah yeah. Private private private. I am so sorry. Go run around Sandhill Road and talk to the venture capitalists and the entrepreneurs that tried to do it privately. Competing with companies and that's not to mention in the real estate space all of the venture funded entities. If you're the lone private entity who is run by the largest shareholder that's trying to tell you that private is good, just go do some due diligence. Go talk to somebody that works for a law firm that's highly profitable that is private and ask them how they participate in that profit and then go back and see if you have an opportunity do that because the last time I checked there is no profit other than profit share being handed out in that large franchise system. I come from it. It's a great company. But Jay, don't you think that once agents do their due diligence and some of them are doing it in a week some are taking 6 months but when they look at this and they start thinking about building wealth and they start thinking about retirement, other streams of income there really isn't a second choice in this. Is there? JAY: There's not a second choice and it's fascinating to me. If you go back and live 30 years ago it was "Keller who" you know when they were first taken off as an example the influences really kind of drive the growth of the company. And I got two messages today literally since right before and probably in the last hour or two that are agents that you know they basically watch the webinar, a they are interested in. One guy said he's 95 % there and the other guy actually said something very similar to that in his comments. And I think when people you know what's really you know we're just at the you know the tipping point you know getting close to 10,000 agents and you know I've always heard that is the tipping point but I've never felt anything like a tipping point like this. I mean it is incredibly interesting how many influences, mega agents, independents see the value proposition they see that's real and I think the other agents you know that are leaders maybe in their marketplaces but they're doing a good business and they're happy where they're at. You know that's going to be the next big wave in the next 12 to 18 months of agents that just this is obviously there's a lot of smart people that moved over here. I get it. I'm moving over here. I mean I can only expect that that would be the case. KEVIN: Gene Frederick and I have coined the term super influencers. We're going through a phase now and you certainly qualify in this category Jay where you get people that have both on their network and also on their social media following Super influence. They're disrupters, when they move especially in the context of what I said about you were you being courted for more than 10, 15 years and then you made a move and those people in the industry that didn't realize that was even a possibility. It was highly disruptive in the market. I know that you've had some huge success. You've had a bunch of people come over afterwards and I think that last time I saw your numbers and I'll just ask you for an update it's been about 100 days hasn't it? When we recorded this and how many people are in your revenue share group? JAY: We partnered obviously me and Michael and Stacey who brought me on board and I think you know all together we are now at just under 300 in total in our revenue share group. And I believe like my personal line it's something like 25 or something like that 27 I think actually now. So yeah. I mean it grew super fast. I think people think you know it's all about how much you're putting into it. It's incredible how quickly it grows underneath you without you know.. with people that you're not talking to every single day. I've a lot of conversations about eXp every single day. I'm happy to have the most fun I've ever had in my life. Having those conversations all day. The bottom line is people tell people who to tell people who tell people and your revenue share grows without much effort beneath you is what I experienced thus far. KEVIN: It's the viral nature of real estate. Now people have people in the real estate business that they are personal friends with or they are in their network. It could even be in their city or their part of their referral network much like what happened to you when a brokerage change occurs. They're like well why did you go to eXp or what's up with eXp. And like you were discussing you'll have them watch a quick intro to eXp or a webinar. It's a little crazy silly. How much traction there is. Because as a former team leader for Keller Williams I can tell you I haven't tried to recruit Jake Kinder but trying to recruit a Kapper or a mega agent was a six months to a six year arduous process. In other words it was a huge win. If somebody like Gene Frederick or I got a mega mega agent and you just look at the last seven days at eXp you know and there's like 500 million dollars worth of production and teams coming in in a week. And for context and the reason I bring that up is it's easy for people to get confused especially because there's a lot of noise and information in the market that it's not very very viral. I know of a franchise office I was told about on the East Coast where not only the team left but all 1 through 5 left in one week. And this is happening for context for listeners to this without Nine hundred team leaders, without managing brokers going out and doing recruiting on a basis. Now you've got people like Gene Frederick, Jay, myself and a whole bunch of other people including agents they're just talking to as Jay described agents in their network. You know maybe somebody did a cobroker transaction with and then they decide to join. But it's very viral at this point isn't that sort of the feeling that you were describing earlier as never felt like it. JAY: That's exactly what it is. It's a completely viral. I found it interesting. There's kind of a unique balance of people who still have never heard of eXp which is a huge opportunity because most people have never been even exposed to what it is and then it seems like there's another subset of the market that were exposed to it didn't really probably weren't properly exposed to it or maybe they weren't exposed to it in a way that they actually listen closely to what it was or looks closely at what it is. There's the people that had been watching closely bought this stock and are just waiting here just waiting for the right person to come on board it so that they know that it's a good decision. Maybe they're fearful or maybe it's just timing. You know those are the kind of the three different tiers that I tend to run into. It's just incredible opportunity. I think still with age I still really don't know anything about eXp or haven't even really heard much about it in some markets. KEVIN: And I would echo that I just had a conversation with about a 10 or 12 million dollar producer in San Diego and I happened to run across her and asked her if she had ever heard of the eXp and we were on a phone call much like the calls that you do Jay. She said it's the wildest thing I see it all over social media. I see it. You know when somebody post something about changing brokers in a Facebook group about real estate and there's 300 comments she said but I've never seen anybody talk to me about what it really means. And that's the opportunity. And you know I want to put a footnote in here and I know you'll probably echo the comment which is commenting for those of you that are already with a eXp and we'll have a lot of people listening to these interviews just for tips and thoughts and be able to frankly share it with other agents that are not here yet. The time to jump in and a 300 comment thread on Facebook is not the right way to get somebody's attention. It's about the one on one conversations. It's about building a relationship with somebody. It's about being purposeful about value and it's not a perfect fit at the eXp realty for everybody I'm sure you've had plenty of conversations like I have. Were the parties mutually agree that OK well it's either not fit now or just you know what. Thank you very much. Or not. I can tell you that I don't jump in those comment streams but I can tell you that invariably when I have a conversation with somebody about eXp that is active in one of those groups, they receive them fairly negatively. In other words I would encourage people if you're listening to this and you're with the eXp to stop the cheerleading in the comments and you know touting revenue share in these 300 comment threads and these Facebook groups. Get into a one on one relationship with people including people who are active in those groups and have a phone conversation. Let them watch the webinar and let them learn the true facts because all it comes across as is overly aggressive. People didn't like this when it happened at Keller Williams. Like I said before, I was a team leader for a long time I ran several market centers Gene Frederic was a team leader, the number one team leader in the country and we never did that. In other words there's plenty of agents that are all excited and you just talked about having somebody just this weekend. Reach out to you. I had two people this weekend as well. And it wasn't because I posted a comment on Facebook right. I don't never see you do it either Jay. JAY: All we've done actually.. we haven't done anything and of course we're you know by the nature of our business as we market the real estate agents all across the country and have been doing that since 2006 so I haven't sent an email talking about eXp or our move. I haven't done anything on Facebook other than doing Facebook Live to announce it and then using you know Facebook Live to interview other people have made the move as well. That's pretty much all we've done so far. And you know that's a good way to get the message out if somebody wants to tune in it can and will have to. But the thing you know that way you're not you know in their face you know trying to force it. I think you want to you know again it's age and attraction agents that are interested in it keep hearing about it are going to be more likely to snoop around a little bit more maybe ask a question are private messages or something like that. But you know just go out there and jumping into a forum using making comments you know about eXp definitely not the right approach in my opinion. KEVIN: I would agree. Now Jay let me ask you a couple of questions. Obviously one of the big things that I see a lot of people asking about is there's a lot of focus on multi market operations and expansion. Right? You know some franchise systems you know like to think that they pioneered this but if you look at the eXp value proposition because you do deal with in your business and I know you're relationships with a lot of the teams that either are already multi market or that's part of their business plan. How much of a game changer do you think that the two things ,the one the single rainmaker cap nationwide for eXp is and then to the fact that they have the team concept in terms of the capping including the mega mega team program how big a game changer in the industry do you think that is going to be? JAY: It's super interesting. For us, it's a huge deal I mean because we were independent so we didn't have you know I guess you know if you look at other systems or other franchises that have something similar. I mean there's way more cost associated with trying to you know expand into new markets with that business model then there is at eXp. There is clearly you know a huge advantage as far as making that an affordable opportunity. And it's interesting because I have got on a few conversations that probably my third or fourth weekend where I had an agent in Virginia that wanted to join my team. She had been on some type of an expansion team somebody at Keller Williams. I'm not sure who it was you know she was looking for some lead generation and things of that nature but she wanted to join on a 50/50 split. I had not been thinking about it that way because most of my conversations have been with influencers and things of that nature so I was just looking at you know I've been sharing over and over and over conversation after conversation you know just the business model and I wasn't presenting it from a here come join my team perspective and it kind of hit me is like my goodness. I mean there could literally be you know you could have a thousand agents on your team. I think you know 15 years of my career. Everybody was focused on how do you get to a thousand transactions and I think now that the opportunity for someone to have a thousand agents on their team that wants to control lead gen and bring agents in under a little bit stronger value proposition than just whatever the eXp is offering in order to help them be successful. You know that's a real possibility. It would be something that you know that I've never seen done before that's for sure. KEVIN: And I think that that is something that inherently, I have some people I'm interviewing about this but is inherently in some of the franchise systems the conflict right. Essentially if you look at a cloud based brokerage like eXp realty your single cap gives you access nationwide because it's a single brokerage not each office is independently owned and operated and franchise system. So the conflict that I see coming down the pike is you can have a national conference like happened recently and announce that you're going to do a virtual cloud based operation. Right? They didn't give a lot of details but now imagine you own the office in Oklahoma City and you're the franchisee and you used to get a cap when the expansion team opens up in your market right. You're going to get some amount of company dollar. Now income is virtual and you're not getting that anymore. I think it's going to be I guess I'll give it a nice pleasant turn but it's going to be very messy for the franchisees in the franchise or to sort through all of that. Silicon Valley approach to this, speed to market is the winner. You know and I think a lot of people are starting to wake up. Most people including a lot of people listening to this don't realize what a big ramp up that eXp is going through. Frankly Jay a big part of it is the momentum that you brought in because if they were running at 300 agents a month in September-October and they hit 988 in January that's a big part of what Gene and I have given the moniker super influence effect. And there's going to be a lot more of that. And for context the number one franchise system in the world netted 908 agents in January. You probably didn't never hear that figure before but I've seen it so with 900 offices they netted 900 agents. eXp did 988 without team leaders with a single nationwide footprint. And so what's ending up happening is what used to occur as they expanded in a franchise system. You know Gene and I did this. You get a bunch of agents excited. They want to join and then they have to wait till the franchise is awarded. They have to wait until the bricks and mortar acquired they have to wait until the office gets a core group and mix application including with the person who gets approved as the franchisee to run it. That takes 12 to 18 months. So flash forward Jake Kinder comes on board in October his phone rings off the hook for the first 30 plus days. Somebody is in San Diego. You know they have 15 agents. Hypothetically they get excited to watch the web an hour they want to join that maybe talk to some of the senior people who are accessible at eXp especially for people that have a substantive business that's a big deal like a list for you. And I know you did talk to Glenn and others before you came over. They come over and it takes 10 days, not 18 months. So for listeners that have been told especially if you work for a franchise system there's no way they can sustain this growth at eXp realty. Here's your wakeup call. It takes as little as a week to 10 days to bring over mega teams. In a franchise system especially if it's an expansion effort and there's a new market center involved is you're talking 12 to 18 months. That's their Achilles heel both for the virtual market center aspect as well as the other aspect we talked about earlier which is the direct conflict. For those out there that are wondering and scratching their head of how did this brokerage go from you know 800 or so agents to 66 hundred at the end of last year to break through 8000. Now as Jay mentioned at the top of this interview close to 10000 that's the clock speed that it's running out. There's no reason I'll put a stake in the ground. I don't what your prediction is but I think that will be at every bit of 22 to 25000 agents at the end of the year. What's your number. JAY: That was the number that I had been thinking to January. And I want to say I had a conversation with Glenn in December. The thought was maybe 13-14000 at the end of 2018 and then at the end of January I think that number is going up considerably closer 20000. I believe there would be more than 23000. The only question that I have is the onboarding process and it's super scalable what they're doing now. So it would stand to reason that they could continue to scale out that apartment and manage the you know the pace at which we're growing. There are some estate broker things that probably come into play there that need to be dialed in there to get more than 23000 but I would definitely bet my left arm on 20000 unless there's some type of internal reason for us to not grow that fast. I can't imagine not hitting 20000 at the end of this year. I just don't see any way especially with the influencers that I know that are on the new on the transition right now and the ones that have already come on board. It's just got too much momentum to not do that. KEVIN: Absolutely and my take on it to Jay is the fact that we've hit critical mass. In other words some in the marketplace and this is some of the noise and misinformation is that they can't keep scaling the eXp realty. There's no way they can do this. And there is a demand portion of that which we've been talking about right the super influencers, the influencers the momentum even down on the agent level worry they'll join and then two or three people will join and then they know two or three people and that's that frankly there's more agents joining from that than just the super influencers right. You look at since you've got here you know if you add 2500 agents and you talk about having 300 in your revenue sharing group. It's still growing much faster than even what you're doing. So the demand side is there. If you look at and I've worked for nine startups in Silicon Valley, the stuff that the marketplace doesn't understand is the systems will all be scalable. They're always going to be periods of time when demand outstrips the capacity of the entity. The difference is if I've got to open up bricks and mortar and hire people and stick them in offices and do things physically there's a meter on it as to how fast I can grow. So if you're just talking about building systems that are scalable that are cloud based, the cloud based model beats the bricks and mortar model every time. So Jay if you look at where you are getting most of the interest from obviously it's across the board right independence you get people from the big franchise systems when you look at an agent that's maybe listening to this. You remember they were involved with your association or something else like that. What's the advice you can give them as far as you know due diligence and vetting and the whole purpose of this podcast is to get it out in your words but also to give them a roadmap for vetting. What would you advise them to do? Obviously they listen to this potentially. Now they need to you know dig in and make their own decision on the eXp Realty. JAY: Do your due diligence. I would say you know talk to agents. One thing I would say not to do is you know don't look at just the agents in your marketplace that are have currently joined eXp and make a decision based on that. There's still a lot of marketplaces where the agents that came on board were super early adopters and maybe they were not doing a lot of transactions or whatever the case may be. I would say get in contact with you know someone that's at a high caliber and talk to them definitely keep listening these podcast. Definitely watch some youtube videos and things of that nature but talk to some agents that are here eXp now and that are doing production and ask them what you know. It's everything it's cracked up to be. I think that's one of the things that you can do that that the easiest and you know see what the truth is out there would be what my advice would be. KEVIN: Absolutely. That's good advice. Another thing I would say to echo what Jay said... We still have markets at the eXp where there are a look like Texas was three years ago when Gene Frederick first approached me about Texas. I want to say they had less than 25 agents in the entire state of Texas. eXp at this point has 1800 agents, they're adding way over 100 per month. The complexion of it and the difference in the brokerage operation is like night and day. Not only is the brokerage infrastructure in terms of the state broker and all the State Administrative brokerage team and I think it's close to 10 people at this point. Completely different. And that's the scalability as well of the business. That's the only thing that I'm glad you brought it up a run across. More people say well I can't look at the roster in my market and there's only a handful of people and I'm not sure you guys are going to do what you do in my market that you've done in other markets. Well it's just a matter of time in my opinion and that's what you just said Jay which is raise your hand and the other thing I would say as far as vetting is that you should, whoever brought eXp Realty has an opportunity to you. Ask them to get you in touch with some other people from a reference standpoint. The culture of the business is such that even if somebody is a fairly large producer or mega agent or they're in a different market if somebody pings them and says hey I've got this prospect, they're really interested in the eXp. They're a little concerned about their market versus what we've done in other parts of the country. We will absolutely get you connected with somebody. It doesn't matter if they are in our rev share group I would do it for Jay. Jay would do it for me. Anybody would do it. We can get you in touch especially if you're a larger independent brokerage and you know you're thinking this is strategic for me. I've got 30 to 50 agents, I've got 100 agents. We had one in the southeastern United States that approached us with 350 agents and five offices. If you're out there and this is strategic, you're listening to these podcasts episodes and you need help. There's plenty of help it's the culture of the business that's in our DNA. And I see you doing it all day long Jay. I mean you raise your hand and say look let me help you Gene and I do the same thing. We don't care and Gene frankly is the evangelist and the ambassador for eXp, he's out there running regional trainings and events all over the country and every once in awhile he'll say to me he goes I think they're in my downline. I think they're in my revenue share group but he doesn't really care. Most of us don't care. We don't care anymore. I know you don't care either. JAY: The culture is just incredible and you think OK well it's not you know there's no brick and mortar attack and you really have culture. This is probably the most culture rich organization I've ever been apart of there really is... It's just engineered into the DNA. When you come on board the eXp to help one another and you know there's not this oh well you're not my downline that's not at all the feel which is something I didn't necessarily expect but I've been really pleased to see that it really is truly you know a lot of givers in this company that are wanting to help one another grow and are willing to help anybody in the organization no matter where they're at. And that starts at the very top with leadership. Now all the way down to you know any agent in the company that's very special to be you know to be able to kind of see that and experience it. It's very rare I would say. KEVIN: Great. Well Jay this is another example of you giving in terms of coming on the podcast I appreciate it. Before we let you go any other final thoughts and then I'm going to have you give out your contact information in case I wants to reach out to you. JAY: No I don't have any final thoughts. I mean if you've been thinking about it you know take action. I think this is you know one of the better opportunities that I've seen since I've been in real estate and certainly think that you're going to be better off here than not being here. KEVIN: Fantastic. Jay if somebody wants to reach you and connect with you how would they find you either on social media or on the web. JAY: You could probably just Google me that's probably an easy way to find me but if you want to e-mail me you can shoot me an email it's my name. Jay@Jaykinder.com. KEVIN: Fantastic thanks for coming on the show. JAY: You got it thank you.

Jay Phelps: @_jayphelps | jayphelps.com Show Notes: 01:25 - RxJS 10:09 - Observers 17:49 - Back Pressure 22:11 - Async Iterators and Generators 31:30 - Mapping Resources: The Observer Pattern Hot vs Cold Observables IxJS redux-observable Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode #84. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at the Frontside and your podcast host-in-training. With me today is Elrick Ryan. Hello, Elrick. ELRICK: Howdy. CHARLES: You and I have actually been on a roll lately, podcasting the hell out of these podcast. ELRICK: Yeah, I know. That is very true. CHARLES: It's been you and me but it's feeling great. It's good to have you on the show again. ELRICK: Yes, wonderful, man. Let's keep it rolling. CHARLES: All right. We will keep it rolling. Today, we are going to be talking about redux-observable and to help us understand and plumb this topic, we have someone who's very qualified to talk about it. Mr Jay Phelps, who in addition to having been the co-creator of redux-observable, also is on the core team of RxJS, which is a fascinating library on which it's based for many years and is currently a senior software engineer at Netflix. Welcome to the podcast, Jay. JAY: Hey! Good morning, everyone. I guess it's not probably morning to the people listening but good morning to you all. Thanks for having me. CHARLES: I'm excited about it. I know that kind of starting with the fundamentals, RxJS is something that was on my radar for a few years and it definitely [inaudible] once we started using redux-observable but the whole concept, I often feel like the world kind of is turned upside down when I'm working with observables, when I'm working with RxJS and I'm curious, how did you come to be a part of that project and what are the things that you use it to solve? Why did the solutions that you generated shake out that way? JAY: Sure. I actually was not introduced to Rx until I started working at Netflix. Netflix does have a fairly solid reputation for their usage of Rx, not just in the JavaScript world but also in the server world. Netflix wrote the original implementation of RxJava and it's used heavily on our backend systems. CHARLES: For some reason, I had this impression and maybe I'm mistaken that Rx originally came out of Microsoft. JAY: Let me continue with the story. It's confusing and I can actually take a step back and clarify that point in particular. Rx itself was originally came from Rx.net, which was indeed created by Microsoft many, many, many, many years ago. I don't know the exact date. I think it was at least 10 years ago. They, at the same time created or about the same time, Matt Podwysocki who was working at Microsoft and still is working at Microsoft, created Rx.net and RxJS. Then many years had passed and originally, it wasn't as popular as it got in the coming years. After several years, some employees from Microsoft ended up coming to Netflix. Jafar Husain is one of those employees. He came from Microsoft to Netflix and he brought that Rx knowledge and that advocacy. Rx is very ingrained in the Netflix culture and is used a lot by various teams for various purposes. Then when I joined Netflix and I got really exposed to it. One of my coworkers at the time, Ben Lesh was asked by several people at Netflix to consider and look into rewriting RxJS. At the time, the version was RxJS 2.0 and while it was great, we had some specific requirements for our website and some of our other applications that we were hoping for a better performance, smaller bundle size and better debugability and -- CHARLES: Also, when I first evaluated it many years ago, it felt very much like a port from another language, in another culture as opposed to something that from the ground up, considered as a JavaScript library. Is that a fair statement? JAY: Yes, somewhat. Definitely, there were more considerations this time around when it was rewritten and originally, it was going to be Version 3 but the rewriting process took quite a while as these things usually do. By the time we got a version out, it was Version 5. We started when RxJS was at Version 2 but it already released Version 3 and Version 4 by the time it released for the new version like a rewrite had been able to get out. When I say a rewrite, I mean like from scratch rewrite. Matt Podwysocki who was the maintainer, almost the sole maintainer of the previous version, also is now on the core team of the new version of RxJS and has been instrumental in pushing back forward as well, he has far more experience with this than either Ben are I so he's been invaluable. Sometimes, we'll think to make those decisions. We'll be like, "Why was this decision made? Was it made because of .net?" and we'll just assume that and we'll want to change it but Matt has the history involved in that. He knows why things were changed the way they were. For example, we changed one of the operators, flatMap to mergeMap. We know somewhat we go at least, I don't want to speak for the entire team but I regret that decision. Depending on the day that I've been talking to Ben, I could convince him to regret that decision as well. But we thought that mergeMap would make more sense and that very few people in practice would have heard of the word flatMap before and had experience with that so -- CHARLES: I have to say both of the terms coming at it were pretty opaque. I think there was a bout of equivalence in opacity. JAY: Yeah, good to know. That's just an example. I don't want to stick too much on that topic. Maybe someday we'll go back to flatMap and the flatMap still exists. If you're a purist, you can use it. Ben was the primary person who was working on this. He wasn't working on it full time but pretty close to full time to get that initial version out. Even though I used it, my involvement with it was fairly low at that point and then my involvement after it was released got increased. I found more time and started to get more involved, particularly there wasn't a lot of code to write. I have some PRs and stuff like that but particularly on the planning and the issue triaging and PRs and stuff like that, which is a pain in the butt. It's just massive. Particularly, around the same time that the rewrite was getting finished that Angular decided, "You know what? We're going to bet on Rx. We're going to depend heavily on it," so you really can't write Angular without writing some Rx these days. You can get away with not knowing Rx very well. You could just call subscribe and then just do a bunch of imperative stuff but for the most part, the paved path is observables in so many fashions. Now, there's this ngrx. I don't know if you have any exposure to the Angular community. I have quite a bit. CHARLES: I haven't recently. Certainly, since that kind of heavy investment in Rx, I haven't been exposed to it. JAY: I think that was your question, right? CHARLES: Yeah. It sounds like there's a Java implementation that gave rise or a .net implementation or Java implementation gave rise to a JavaScript implementation and that's the one that you got involved with but it suggests very strongly that Rx is an idea and it's played out in a bunch of different languages but really, there is a shift or it's an idea about the way you think about your programs. It's clearly been compelling to you so what is that idea and what is that shift from the way we normally think about things? JAY: The idea was realized very early on -- CHARLES: Yeah, both 10 years ago, right. JAY: Yeah, exactly. They dubbed it their reactive extensions, which is what Rx stands for. Pretty much, name a language and it's been ported to that. There's RxSwift, which is super popular. There's even things like RxCpp and stuff which if you look at it, it's awkward. It seems like we got less language in the world for doing this sort of thing. I actually like C++ in a lot of ways but it was awkward stuffing that stuff in there. It's a really popular pattern and the idea is just basically going all in on the observer pattern, saying that like, "Most people are building things in which you want to be pushed information." You want to be pushed events and the data should stream to you. Modeling most problems in the world as a stream, once you get over the initial barrier of getting away from your normal historical way of looking at things and you look at everything as a stream, it comes very natural because you can actually model literally anything as a stream because it could be a stream of one, it could be a stream of nothing, it could be a stream of infinite number of events or it could be a stream of 10. You can model anything as a stream. Once you start thinking about that, it just becomes very natural and particularly on the UI side of things, I think there's been a lot of success in RxJava stuff at Netflix but RxJava is also used in Rx.net for client-side stuff as well, for mobile development. CHARLES: I remember when I first was introduced to it, I think there was a lot of confusion for me around an observer in the context of Rx and an observer in the context of classical MVC. One particular manifestation of the MVC architecture where you have these kind of mutable objects and you're observing their properties. Like key value observation, which factors heavily into certain UI frameworks. Backbone is one that comes to mind or if you're familiar with Java, basically the JavaBeans, like the property model listeners. I kind of had that conception of what an observer was versus Rx has a very, very different take on observable things. Do you think you could maybe show where they're different? JAY: You can get the normal classic observer pattern using Rx, using a subject basically. But there's a subject class, which you're not going to use super often but there are certain cases where it makes sense. Also, it depends on what libraries. It is used more often in the Angular world because you want to get a stream of clicks or something like that but -- CHARLES: So what would be the subject in that case? JAY: The subject in that case would be you're going to pipe, you're going to emit. Every time they click on something, you're going to 'next' something into that subject, like 'next the event' into the subject. Basically, a subject is a really great way to go from some imperative world to the observable world. Without having to write all sorts of custom glue, you can just basically say, "I've got subject. Any time I 'next' into it, just notify anyone who's listening to this." A subject is hot observable and that's the closest to the typical observer pattern because Rx, it's usually like observables and are usually lazy or cold. That's also what people call it. In the normal observer pattern, there is not necessarily any concept of laziness like you listen to something and that producer is already producing usually. CHARLES: Right. You hit on that and I think that was something that was surprising and kind of delightful when I first started using observables is to realize that they were lazy. Let me make sure I understand it. What was cool is like I was going through some of the demos and I had this observable and is part of, forgive my terminology but when you create a new observer, you pass the function that will get called every time something subscribes to it, right? JAY: When you create a new observer it passes a function -- CHARLES: When you create a new observable, you pass a function that gets called when an observer subscribes and the thing that you can pass is the thing that you can call next on, right? JAY: That's exactly right. When it's a lazy observable, that only get called... Actually, you know, continue. You had a point. CHARLES: I was going to say what was a surprising and cool for me was that every single thing that subscribe to that observable got its own history of that observable from the very beginning. It got its own function invocation so the first example I did, I wanted to iterate over an array and just send 10 items to the observer. Then when you subscribe, you're starting from one every single time: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. It's not like I subscribe and one gets five of the elements, then I subscribe to another one and that one gets the next five or those two get the next five together. It's like they each get their own version of that observable. JAY: That's exactly right and then that's the main difference between -- CHARLES: -- The whole thing, yeah. JAY: Yeah. This is still observer pattern because the observer pattern, at least to my knowledge, I'm not an expert on this or anything but my understanding is that the observer pattern does not necessarily dictate hot versus cold, per se but traditionally I would say, people interpret it as typically the hot type of thing or also the multicast, if you want to be like these cool buzzwords. CHARLES: Right. What you're thinking of it is when you've got this mutable object, you just dive in wherever it is at that moment and you're now observing events from it. JAY: And that's traditionally because the observer pattern was mostly created for that model view controller type of pattern as well. You can think of like a stream of clicks: the users clicking on things where a stream of keyboard events. That is inherently a hot or multicast stream. You can't tell the user, "Start clicking," or, "Start typing. Don't type." You can tell them that but it's futile. The point being is that you can't control the stream. It pushes data to you and it's already pushing, whether you're subscribing or not, the data is flowing so the traditional observer pattern works really well for that. Then the observables, it's usually lazy, Now again, with subjects and with multicasting, you can get the same behavior. You can get that observable that is hot and shares its subscriptions so that when multiple people subscribe to it, they all get the exact same underlying subscription that is already producing data. CHARLES: I see. That makes sense with to call of multicast because fundamentally, there's really only one observer. There's only one stream and you just happened to be entering in at a certain point. JAY: Right. Then the other one is called unicast but not everyone calls it that but that's usually what it's called. CHARLES: There's a lot of terminology. With subjects, is that just a fancy way of saying a hot observable? JAY: Not necessarily but almost always. If you include them together, you're not wrong 99% of the time. But as a quick drive by definition, it's totally fine. If you're teaching someone really all the things and then they want to fundamentally understand it, it's good to have some distinctions. A subject is hot and multicast but just because something is hot and multicast does not mean that it necessarily has a subject backing it. Maybe from the pattern perspective, you could call it 'the subject' or 'a subject' but in the Rx world, it's not necessarily a subject. CHARLES: Then for cold observables, what are good things that they model, like the execution of an algorithm or something? there's an instance of that algorithm, I'm going to add two numbers or I'm going to reduce this tree of numbers into a product or a sum or something like that, where you start from the beginning, there's a clear beginning, there's a clear end --? JAY: Right. The observables are really good at modeling side effects, for example. Things you want to do like make an Ajax call or read a file or something like that. In fact, reading from a file is actually not a great use case for observables just because you want to be able to control the back pressure. We can talk about that next if you want but -- CHARLES: Yeah. Back pressure is a concept. It's crazy to me and when people use it, I'm like, "How do you even do that?" You can say it and sounds good in practice but it sounds really, really complex. JAY: I think I can summarize it for you. The back pressure stuff is basically you have a data producer and you want to be able to control the rate in which it is producing so that you do not overwhelm the consumer. You can consider two servers. You've got Server A and it's sending events to Server B. If Server B can only process 10 events per second but Server A sends 100 events per second, what's going to happen? There's a deficit. There's a huge 90 events per second deficit and that means that the Server B is going to get more and more behind. Eventually, it will just fall over and run out of memory, CPU or whatever happens. Back pressure is basically just being able to control that somehow. There's lots of ways, there's several policies of back pressure. There's buffering, there's dropping and then there's the pull model where it's like, "I'm going to tell you when to give me the next event," or, "I'm going to tell you to give me six more. I can handle six more, give me six more," or, "Here's the next one." Those were -- CHARLES: Then polling would have to be combined with buffering or dropping still, right? JAY: Possibly but it becomes one of those like you use it just as a rarity. Because the problem with buffering is that it becomes usually unbounded and that means you can -- CHARLES: It's blowing up the producer, right? JAY: Well, you risk money out of memory, mostly. It just becomes completely unbounded. You can bound that buffer and then it becomes dropping. Then if it's dropping, that means it's lossy. In a lot of scenarios, it's important not to drop information. CHARLES: They're useful stuff. JAY: Right. At the same time, there are a lot where you can drop it. Like at Netflix, we have this data pipeline thing for these logs and I got a good talk on this actually. This data pipeline is called Mantis job platform where all this data flows through. It uses RxJava almost exclusively and we have a lot of different back pressure mechanisms but the one of the most popular is dropping data. If the consumer is being overwhelmed with the number of logs and events that are matching to it, we just start dropping them because they're logs. We want to keep them but we make a best effort and it's perfectly fine to drop them. In the observable world, it's usually going to be either buffer or drop. You're not going to usually be able to control the producer's rate. In RxJava, there is something called the flowable, which lets you control the rate by basically saying, "Give me N number. I want N number more." It's become more important on the server-side end of things but a normal observables -- CHARLES: That makes sense. JAY: Yeah and there's even a library that's brand new that Matt Podwysocki came out with called IxJS. Instead of RxJS, it's IxJS and it's iterator. It's for async iterator and regular iterators, which is good for that other end of the spectrum for back pressure. If you want to be able to control the producer, you're saying, "Give me the next five." That's what an async iterator is incredibly perfectly suited for. CHARLES: The async iterators are kind of like the logical inverse of the observables? JAY: That's exactly right. It's the dual, if you want to use the computer science term, I assume you knew that already and it was that was just a plant. CHARLES: Actually, I didn't terminology, the dual but it's like through the looking glass world, right? JAY: Yeah, that's correct. CHARLES: One hand you got Alice in our world and she's looking in the looking glass world. I'm not saying which one is which but one is observables and one is the async generators. When you would want to use async generators is when you want to have the consumer driving the entire stream. JAY: That's right. A lot of people, when they discover async iterators, they'll ask me, "Jay, why wouldn't I just always use that? It seems like they're more flexible of the two." The reason why is because you can't always control the producer. The fundamental example that I was giving earlier like mouse events or keyboard events, you cannot control what the user does so an async iterator would be a very poor primitive to model that because what happens if you decide to give me one keyboard event at a time and one per second. You're like, "Give me the next keyboard event." If you did that one per second and someone is typing on their keyboard, what do you do with all the events while you're waiting? You could buffer them but that's a back pressure problem. You have to choose and it's a very poor primitive model to that. CHARLES: Yeah, that would be a terrible user experience. The users want the consequences of their actions to be realized at the soonest possible point. JAY: That's exactly right. The other benefit of observables is a slight increase in performance because when you subscribe to an observable, it sets up the chain and then now only data needs to flow through that chain. Whereas an async iterator, every time you call next, you're going to get a brand new promise. If you used it for something very high volume, you might be able to see how now you've got a lot of excess allocations: CPU cycles being used, garbage collecting for each one of those promises. In Netflix, we got a lot of streams, which are hundreds of thousands of events per second. If you do that, those allocations of those promises can certainly add up. It's just not the most efficient primitives for that as well. CHARLES: I thought that async iterators used essentially continuations under the covers and not promises. JAY: Under the covers, I'm not sure how you would describe what -- CHARLES: I'm not super familiar -- JAY: It's basically an -- CHARLES: You're talking about like yield, right? JAY: You're talking of generators maybe? CHARLES: Uh-uh. JAY: Iterators and generators are although related because a generator is basically a factory for creating iterators. Does that make sense? CHARLES: Yeah. JAY: Every time you call that factory, you get a brand new iterator out of it. But then when you have an async generator, it's basically the exact same thing except for the iterator returns a promise. You're basically saying, "Give me the next thing." You call next on the iterator and the next will return a promise and that promise will resolve with a value. Why is that useful to standardize? Because you can have syntactic sugar like the [inaudible]. I don't know if you've seen that yet but it's like a loop primitive, where you can basically loop over an async iterator without needing to deal with the whole thing and all that stuff. The same way normal async/await is helpful. This await is helpful at the same time. CHARLES: It's way above my pay grade but maybe you're using both. I'm trying to think with async the way that works with promises, right? JAY: That's correct. CHARLES: So you got both the continuation and a promise. That's even more overhead than the promise because you've got to stuff away that whole call stack and the promise and yield to it. But anyhow... ELRICK: This is very interesting. RxJS is a very deep subject. What I'm interested to know is you have RxJS, you have observables and you have redux. Where's the union? How did that come to play that you guys came up and said, "You know what? We need to create redux-observable library?" JAY: Yeah, great question. It came about fairly organically and over many month period of time, actually. We bring Rx people as I mentioned and we were using redux at the time and we're still using redux but my team that I was on was using redux and we were using redux thunk and the thunks were getting incredibly out of hand. It was very hard for us to do things that we were used to doing that were very simple like debouncing. We were like, "This is really hard. It's just to do something so simple that in Rx, it's so simple." We try to stuff Rx into redux thunk and try to make conventions around that. It just didn't work out well and then we initially made something we called thunk-observables -- CHARLES: We really wish you would have stuck with the name even you didn't -- JAY: Yeah, so thunk-observable is probably what you can expect. You dispatch a thunk which returns an observable and that observable will be subscribed to and that was it. Basically, that was the primitive so that let us have our debouncing but in practice, we found that the thunk stuff cause way more confusion and then also did not let us do composition as much as we wanted to. We then extended thunk-observable thing to get receive a stream of actions so that you could compose the different thunk-observable together and then receive new actions to cancel things and stuff like that. We eventually just figured out that having basically the idea of thunk-observables but having of them be like almost static factories that are like process managers, that's the pattern that we ended up on today. That we coined calling them epics. Basically, an epic is a function, which receives as an argument, a stream of all of the actions. It gets an observable of every action that's going to be dispatched and it was a hot observable so that means that if you happen to subscribe to it later, you're not going to get all the actions from before. It doesn't replay them. It's just all actions from the time you subscribe and continuing. Then what that function is expected to return is a new stream of actions and that stream that it returns of actions gets subscribed to by the middleware under the hood and basically, it just calls stored dispatch on anything you emit. You can imagine the simplest epic would be a function that gets streamed of all the actions, it applies a filter operation on all of those and looks for a particular action and then based on that action, it performs some side effect and then when that side effect comes back, it emits a different action. Basically, to notify redux like, "Here's the results. Here's the change. I'm done," or what have you. let you just make arbitrary side effects but isolate them in a way that fits very naturally with your UI layer that you're using and with redux itself with the purity of the reducers. CHARLES: Right. For example doing an Ajax request, I think that's a good example. You get some action in, you're getting every single action that's dispatched to the store, the first thing you want to do is you want to filter that stream to only the actions that are user click the save button so I want to save off this form. To some action, that's my save action so then my job is to now map that eventually. Out the end of that stream, I want to have like the save either succeeded or the save failed. There's two forks on an Ajax request. The fundamental mapping that's happening is either from the user click save, whatever you want to call that action, I want to map that to the user if the save was successful or I want to map that to the save failed or rejected. The hard part then is executing those side effects and then putting them back into the stream. How would you do that then with redux-observable? JAY: If I'm following correctly, the typical almost all epics, not all of them but almost all, they're going to have a filter at the top of the epic, they're going to filter out looking for the action they want and then they'll have some sort of merging strategy operator like mergeMap, aka flatMap or they have something like switchMap. CHARLES: I feel like that's one of the harder concepts for me and I want to actually going to be a little selfish here and try and bounce my understanding off of a bit so you can be like, "No, your mental model is incorrect," but we'll find out how it's incorrect. With the mergeMap, is that a way of saying, "I can take other observable streams and inline them inside this one stream." That's the way I've been thinking about it. I can go out to the rest of the world, I can have some other stream and I can inserted into the processing chain of this other stream. In this case, I do a mergeMap of the actual fetch or the actual post but it's not a straight chain of implication like do a filter then I do a map then I do this. I've got to take this other observable, this thing, this other asynchronous process, which really represents another stream and I want to merge it into this one stream. Then once that's done, I get the result. now, once that happens outside the mergeMap, now the Ajax results whether it's a success or failure, the result of the request, now it becomes the next item in the stream, which then I have to map down to another redux action. JAY: That's right. The mergeMap operator has an alias and it also used to just be called flatMap so you can envision that you are creating an observable of observables, a higher order of observable. With mergeMap, you want to flatten that. You're saying that every time I get an event, I'm going to call this projection function and it's going to return a new observable, an inner observable and I want to merge each one of those into each other so that it becomes one stream. That means you can have concurrency. That means you can have multiple and simultaneous concurrent Ajax calls that can finish it arbitrary times. I think it's important then to contrast that with some of the other merging strategies like switchMaps or concatMap. With switchMap, as the name implies, you switch between observables so at any point in time, you can only have one observable subscribes to at a time. If a new event comes along and you call the projection function, it returns a new observable. If the previous observable has not yet completed, it will get unsubscribed to and anything it was doing gets cancelled. In the example you're talking about, if you've got an epic that goes and fetches your user model every time they click this button, let's say that they can click that button multiple times and you don't want to make 50,000 requests. The quintessential example is actually the auto suggest stuff. As you're typing key strokes, if the request is in processing and they type another keystroke, you don't want to wait for them the previous request to come back and process it. It's not only wasteful because you'll process the JSON and all that stuff. It can introduce bugs because it may come back out of order. It may come back actually after your new one comes back and that can cause all sorts of crazy weird bugs. That's what switchMap is really great for. I call it implicit cancellation. Ben doesn't like that because he's saying that in a switchMap, you are being explicit about it but you're not calling unsubscribe on it yourself, which is why I call it implicit. It happens automatically. There will never a new event pipes through there. Then there's the third one which I don't -- CHARLES: So this switchMap ever make sense outside the context of hot observables? JAY: I would say that it makes more sense usually on hot observables but there are certainly cases like let's say that you've got a web socket observable and every time you get an event, based on that event, it make some other request and that other request may or may not take a really long time. But if you get another thing back from the web socket, you want to cancel the previous one. That's somewhat not a great example as well because sometimes people use multiplexing for the web socket so that it becomes multicast. But the point being is that there are definitely times where you will use merge, switch or concat. That concatMap being the third one where as you might imagine, you are concating the observables, you line them up. If I get a new event, I'm going to call my projection function, create that new observable but I'm not going to subscribe to it. I'm going to keep it but I'm not going to subscribe to it and tell the previous observable I was subscribing to has completed. In a way, you're buffering the observables and because you're offering them, you can get in trouble where you end up buffering infinite observables. Let's say the first one never completes for some reason because of a bug, you may infinitely buffer them. ConcatMap is not used that often. I'd say it's very rarely used. Its use mainly when you don't want lossy behavior. You want, at most wants semantics like you're only doing one per time. CHARLES: The difference between mergeMap and concatMap is what? JAY: It's you're not going to do concurrent. That's probably the best way to explain it. You're going to do that in sequence instead of concurrently. CHARLES: I see. Maybe an example would be like file uploads or something. You probably want to do your file uploads in parallel but let's say, you want to conserve bandwidth or you're working where you've got a browser that only supports 10 connections or five upload connections but when someone selects 30 files, you don't want to just drop those files. You want to be uploading 10 concurrently but as soon as one finishes off of that 10, you want to start up another one. JAY: That's absolutely right. Another example would be like you are going to hit some API and it could be used as one mechanism to kind of throttle yourself. If you want to guarantee that you're only connecting at most once to this particular end point at a time, no matter what the upstream tells you to do. CHARLES: Right. I could see that. That makes sense. JAY: I can tell that you're a little bit struggling to see the use cases, which is totally normal. ConcatMap is not used very often. It's for of those fundamental operations, which primarily why it's included is it's non-trivial to implement yourself. CHARLES: Are there any other mapping operators that we should know about? JAY: Those are the three primary ones. There's a couple of other like boutique variations but they're all variations on the exact same thing. CHARLES: Right. ELRICK: Do we have like mergeMap, switchMap and concatMap that are specific to management of observable and that's specific to redux-observable. There's people out there using something like redux-saga or they're trying to compare and contrast these two libraries. How do these things contrasts? Because I don't think you would use either of these mapping operations inside of a saga. Is that correct? JAY: I just want to make a minor clarification. The Rx stuff and these operators that we've been talking about: mergeMaps, switchMap and concatMap, they are not actually related to redux-observable really in any way. The only thing they're related is that you just might happen to use them. Redux-observable is actually a very tiny library and it defers pretty much everything to just normal idiomatic RxJS code and that's really the biggest pro in comparing it to say redux-saga. Redux-saga came significantly over a year before redux-observable and without a doubt, were influenced. The pattern is very, very, very similar but there are some just fundamental differences and one of those is that difference. The most obvious thing is if you already know RxJS very well, without a doubt you're going to want to use redux-observable. I could tell you that, it's not possible but it's very unlikely you'd choose redux-saga over redux-observable if you're already a really big Rx fan because you basically know how to do it. You just have to think that the items you're modeling, the events you're modeling are actions, which just happens to be a convention really. There are some other differences though between redux-observable and redux-saga and the biggest difference being that redux-saga takes this effects as data approach, which is like Haskell if you're familiar with that. In a lot of ways, it's identical with the IO monad but it basically just means that you're not actually performing the side effects yourself right then and there when you call their operators. There are special utility functions, instead there's like an engine or a middleware underneath that performs the side effects on your behalf. You create a generator and that generator is the pattern that is called a saga is what they call it. That generator yields these objects, these effects objects. One of the effects objects might be to call some particular API to make an Ajax request so you're going to yield that object that basically describes the side effect you want to perform but doesn't actually do it itself. It's just an object. In the middleware will form it for you so why would you put that indirection. The indirection helps when you want to do things like testing. If you want to test it, you don't actually need to perform any of the side effects. You can just call next on the iterator that you get back from the generator, you call next on it, you will get the side effect object, the effect as data that you want to perform and you can just assert based on that. You don't need to do mocking in all of that stuff. You just have to assert that the effects that were yielded were the ones that you expected. Now, I don't like that approach personally because I actually use redux-saga quite a bit, not lately. It was like a year ago. You end up implementing almost all, not all but a lot of your business logic in your actual tests themselves. Your test become less about testing the behavior or the outcome of a particular thing and more about testing how it gets to that outcome and what steps it takes to get there. Some people think that's fine. For me personally, it felt like any time I made a change in my saga, I had to make the exact same change in my test even though the behavior of the saga did not change. The actual observable outside side effects did not change in any way but I may be refactored or renamed something. It felt very redundant and to me, felt brittle because I started to wonder who tests the test then. If the tests are in a lot of ways are reimplementation of the saga, how did I really test that the behavior of what I was trying to accomplish really was accomplished. I'm not an expert on it so certainly, I'm sure there are people who have patterns around this that can mitigate some of my concerns. But for me, I'm used to testing Rx and I'm used to Rx in particular so the pattern for me of using observables just made a lot more sense to me. Also, with either of these libraries, the learning curve is really steep. If you don't know redux-observable, let's say you don't know Rx, learning Rx just to use redux-observable is a pretty huge undertaking. I would usually recommend people to not do that. A lot of times these days is spent me helping people who are frustrated because they dug themselves in a hole by using all these new technologies. They'll pull in TypeScript and [inaudible] with every all of the cool new hotness and I don't blame them because they've been told that this is all the cool stuff. CHARLES: We got some great advice on that that you can have one vanity technology on every project and live it yourself. Indulge in that coolness, in that hotness and do something exciting but make sure you have one vanity technology and one only. Everything else, be very comfortable with and one is just crazy experimental like this is the coolest new thing and we're going to just drop it in. But if the rest of your chassis is solid, then you can support that crazy experimental engine that requires you to stand up on the front of it and feed gas in with your mouth like they did in Mad Max. JAY: And there are exceptions obviously but for the most part, I subscribe to that. I answer a lot of questions on Stack Overflow and redux-observable. I actually get sad and frustrated when I see people that it's very clear that they shouldn't be using this. Their use case is not complex and they haven't learned Rx yet. It's one thing if you're like, "I'm learning this and I know that I'm going to have pain." That's totally acceptable. There's plenty of times where it's like, "It's totally okay that there is no concrete deadline and I can take my time," but a lot of times and I would say, a majority of the time, you're slipping on the deadline and that's not a good thing. The people who are coming to me are just frustrated. They're like, "Why is this so complicated?" You're right, it is really complicated but its complication helps with some of the more complicated use cases. That's the irony behind both redux-saga and redux-observable is that they're both really complex for the trivial use cases like all I want to do is make an Ajax call. That's it. I don't want to cancel it, debounce it, I won't do anything. I just want to make an Ajax call. They are the biggest hammer you could possibly think of. Don't use them for that. CHARLES: The thing is if you're not sure, whether you need redux-observable, then you actually don't need redux-observable. JAY: I would say that usually that is the case, yes. The same with redux-saga. They're in the exact same league. It's basically, "Do you need complex side effect management?" With the redux-saga, the complications, even though generators have been around for a little while, a majority of people still are not familiar with them because they're just not used all that often. They're kind of mystifying. I would say, they're not super hard to learn. They're just alien. Then to add on top of that, the effect is data and you've got multiple curveballs. Same thing with redux-observable, they could never use observables. It's pretty alien. The reactive programming idea and model is pretty alien. I would advise, if you're not using redux, don't even consider redux-saga and redux-observable personally. If you're already are using redux and you think that you might need something like this, experiment with the primitives, try and see how well your team can pick up RxJS just by itself. Just learn some of the regular RxJS tutorials, don't even look at the redux-observable docs because it's not useful in any way when it comes to this. Just try and learn a little bit Rx and see does it click. Because some people is like, "I don't understand why everyone thinks it's complicated. It's easy." But a majority of people, it takes a while before they get that like Neo in The Matrix, I-know-kung-fu moment. CHARLES: All right. We're almost at time but I hope that that moment comes to everybody. I think we've certainly enjoyed a lot of success with it already and I think once you do get your head around the basic use cases and you know how to do an Ajax request, you know how to do just simple saves and gets and what have you, doing the trivial things becomes easy because you know which pathways to travel. But before we head out, is there anything that you've got coming up in the near future, any talks, appearances, meet ups, anything whether you or otherwise that people should be aware of? JAY: I would say on this topic, there's a new beta for RxJS with this new way of using operators. It's being dubbed lettable operators, like the 'let' keyword but it's not related to that. It's basically just a way of finally being able to import operators and to use normal tree shaking that people have asked for forever. Because the problem with observables is that they're prototype-based methods and you can't reliably tree-shake methods or prototypes. We've been trying to experiment with ways to have [inaudible] and the lettable operator stuff is interesting to check out. It's a stopgap measure until JavaScript has something like the pipeline operator, which just actually moved to stage one. It's a brand new operator. If you're familiar with a lot of functional programming stuff like F# and a lot of the functional programming language is actually have the pipeline operator, it'll make it so that you can basically have syntactic sugar to apply a function, basically to pipe the result of a function into the first argument of the next function, etcetera. You can pipe the argument and return values through a series of functions. If you do that without this syntactic sugar, you've got this massive nested function invocation, which is incredibly hard to read and hard to maintain. That's why the pipeline operator is so great. I would encourage people, that's in beta right now. I think it's 5.5 but it's in beta right now. I encourage people to check it out, find bugs and get feedback. Maybe this is completely off base and it's not the right direction that the team should be going but it's based on a lot of collaboration, particularly with the Angular community. They've been, in particular asking for this because they're pretty big and they've got to use the Clojure compiler and all sorts of things for trying to make their bundles incredibly small. For me personally, I don't have any Rx talks coming up. I've been pretty obsessed with web assembly here lately. I'm an armchair compiler nerd. I don't do compilers for a living but I have done them personally for a number of years so I'm obsessive with web assembly. I have number of talks in web assembly coming up but just nothing related to Rx at this point. CHARLES: That's totally okay. I'm actually, also have been obsessed with web assembly. JAY: Have you guys done a podcast on that yet? CHARLES: I don't know. ELRICK: No, not yet. CHARLES: I actually started out to write my own list compiler in web assembly and they got totally derailed on the list compilers. Actually I ended up switching tracks on the whole web assembly thing but I was really, really excited about it. Probably, it was about three months ago or something like that but I'm still excited about it. I just haven't been working on it actively so I'm very curious to hear about those talks. Let's post them on the show notes and who knows? We do a lunch and learn every Friday here and usually, it's one of us getting up there but sometimes, we'll just watch a talk. One of us has been wanting to watch. ELRICK: And you're always welcome to come back to any time and geek out with some web assembly. CHARLES: I'd say, we haven't podcast web assembly, you know? All right, you guys, we've been at this for another hour. Let's go. Everybody listening, strap your headphones on, we're going down for another hour. Changing the subjects: web assembly. It starts right now. ELRICK: It's going down. CHARLES: No, but we will have to have you on for that. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with us about observables, Rx, redux-observable but if folks want to continue the conversation with you, they can get in contact with you how? On Twitter, email? JAY: The best way is going to be Twitter probably. I'm at @_JayPhelps. Thank you guys very much for having me on today. It was a blast. I love talking about this stuff. ELRICK: Thank you. CHARLES: Thank you and for anybody out there, we can also be reached at @TheFrontside on Twitter or just drop us a line and Contact@Frontside.io and have a great week and we'll see you next.

According to Jay: “It can be like speaking another language.” There’s a fine line between semantics and context. In this episode, the guys break down the legal jargon that often leaves non-lawyers scratching their heads.   The post Ep. 3: Breaking down ‘legalese’ appeared first on .

Jay McBain, Global Advisor at Channel Mechanics, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss shadow channels and the shift from IT buying power, verticalization (or hyperfocused vectorization), the future of the channel and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Welcome to The Allbound Podcast, I am Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound. And today, I'm joined by Jay McBain who co-founded the company ChannelEyes, currently serves as Chairman Emeritus of the CompTIA Vendor Advisory Council and Managed Services Community. He is a Board member of the Channel Vanguard Council, the Ziff Davis Leadership Council, and CRN Channel Intelligence Council. In short, this man knows channel. Welcome, Jay. Jay: Thanks, Jen, really appreciate it. Glad to be here. Jen: Absolutely. Well, it's good to have you. And especially, really wanting to get caught up with you and what's going on in your world and I'm sure our listeners are also really interested about five months ago, you took on a free agent status. You said, "Okay, I'm leaving ChannelEyes," which was the channel tech startup that you helped co-found. So catch us up, what's had your attention the last year or so? Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I had spent the last while at ChannelEyes as CEO and they're working on some really interesting stuff around predictive analytics and artificial intelligence. And I think in the next three to five years, most of us in the channel will be using computers to help us do our daily tasks...help us with our daily tasks and get us to the finish line faster. And I think now that the company transitions to a CEO that can better position the company with some of the leading CRM players in the market like Salesforce and Microsoft. And who knows, further down the road, to really make something happen. Jen: Great, great. So what are you focused on right now as a channel professional in your world? Jay: That's a great question and I was at CompTIA last week and probably answered the question at least 100 times so... Jen: I'm sure. I'm sure. Jay: One of the answers is I spent almost 20 years working at IBM and Lenovo in different channel roles including channel chief roles. And they were always Americas based, either North America or full Americas, and I never really got a lot of exposure to Europe and Australia and Asia-Pacific. And what I've decided to do in the last five months is work closely. I've been to Australia and going back again working with a very large telco there, I'm working with this great company in Ireland which is where I'm sitting right now in Ireland. The company is called Channel Mechanics and they've really looked at the channel management space and they've done some really innovative things. So looking internationally but also looking obviously to work with some very interesting challenges, which I'm sure we'll touch on on this podcast. Jen: Great. So let's, dig in to some of that. I've followed a lot of what you've been writing about specifically around channel, something that you previously called out, is that a large number of channel programs that tend to get stuck in the exact same place. And you wield it down to two key conclusions. So one, that some vendors will simply win because their product wins. And then two, that other vendors will win because they know how to influence the channel. So I'd like to know, what do you mean by that? Jay: Yeah, this is one of my kind of personal passions and I think it started when I read the book "Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell. He's got this great chapter early on in the book. I think it's chapter 2, about Paul Revere. What a great connector Paul Revere was in 1776 and why that won the day more so than riding a horse through all these towns, and why the other person who left on horseback that night wasn't successful. And this idea of influencers or connectors and super connectors, when I moved to the United States from Canada in 2009, I looked at the market and looked at the millions of people that participate in the channel and I didn't have 15 years to catch up to the relationships that I had in Canada at the time. So I kind of boiled it down and said, "What is this influence and how would you measure it?" And in 2009, I generated a list of the top 100 most influential people in the global channel and I did it again, actually, about 4 months ago on my blog. And seven or eight years had passed and it's interesting to see people have changed positions and everything else. But it's a very analytical numeric way of assigning scores for people's influence. And just to give a quick synopsis is back in 2009, I figured out that there are 16 magazines that channel people read. There's 150 trade shows globally that channel people go to. There's thousands of vendors. There's dozens of distributors. There's bloggers, thought-leaders, associations, analysts. When you look around this web of influencing sites, what people read, where they go, and who they follow, it's across different mediums but they're all available. So I took and read every magazine. I wrote down every name of everyone in the magazines. I went to most of the trade shows in my first year and took note of who the keynote speakers, and the advisory council, and the board members, and all the key people at these events. I did the same for peer groups. I did the same for the associations and analysts. And as I came around, I came to about 1,000 names. But what was more important to me is how visible they were across multiple different communities. In our channel, it's so wide and diverse. But more importantly, it's decentralized. Channel partners don't have the time to go and read 12 magazines. So they tend to focus on one community and at most, maybe two to get their information to reinforce their expertise and to really peer network. And we look at these organizations, there's about 30 of them in North America that they're a part of. And I was really looking at how many people influenced in more of these 30 communities. And really, for me, reach was more important than maybe... that's all I could find out on Google. I couldn't find out how important they were in each community but I could definitely measure their reach. And so, I just added this really simple spreadsheet, and I just started adding check marks beside each name every time I saw them more than once. And after 1,000 names and thousands and thousands of check marks, I just sorted by whoever had the most check marks. And interestingly enough, in 2009, Larry Walsh, who was long time CRN editor, kind of patriarch of the channel, but he ranked number one and I didn't know who Larry Walsh was but I knew I had to go meet him. And then, all the way down the list I wanted to meet. And as I met probably 20 to 30 of the top 100 people, the other 70 came rushing to me. Not because I was important but because they sensed that I was doing this and talking to these important people and maybe I was important. But to a connector, they don't want to be left in the dark. So it's really important to them to know what's going on and to be able to kind of stay on the inside of things. So it was kind of really fascinating and over the last seven or eight years, I've written a lot and I've studied the level of influence that people have in the channel and there's a direct correlation between people having a high influence and carrying their company to great new heights. Jen: I think that holds true, regardless of what sort of industry or what segment of the market you're in, especially from that leadership perspective. I think it's also interesting, we talk to a lot of folks who are not your traditional type of channel organization, not your traditional enterprise IT company. Maybe they're a small or more mid-market size organization, software company, ready to kind of build a channel. A lot of folks are looking at an agency-based program. Upcoming on a future podcast episode, I'm going to be interviewing Pete Caputa from HubSpot who's now at Databox and has assured us that he's building the agency partner program to end all partner programs. And so when I think about influence, I think about an individual like that. So would you say that this concept of influencing the channel is just as strong in the evolution of where channel is going? Is it even more important than ever? I mean, what is your take on it because looking at 2017 compared to 2008, not that much time has gone by but there's been a lot of change in that time period? Jay: Well, there absolutely has, and some of the things I wrote about later last year, I call them shadow channels. But I've got this personal belief that your average vendor, their channel program is going to grow by at least 5X in the next three or four years. And the reason really goes back to the customer buy-in journey. And people at HubSpot know this very, very well but over the last 10 years, 90% of all IT decisions 10 years ago were made in the IT department. Makes sense, CIO. And today, it's flipped completely where 72% of all decisions are made outside of the IT department. It's now the VP of sales and marketing, operations, and finance, and HR, and all the way down the line that are making big technology decisions that are business decisions. And what's happening to traditional vendors is sometimes they're not in the room. Well, most cases, they're not in the room. When a VP of marketing like yourself is making a technology decision, a lot of times you don't have the person who's fixing your printer in the room. Jen: Wait, wait, hold on. Jay, I'm the person who fixes the printer here, so should it be someone else fixing... Jay: Oh. Jen: Just... Jay: That's right. Startup life, you know. Jen: Startup life. Yeah, I know, I'm sorry, I had to insert that. I had to insert that. But no, no, I agree with you 100% what you're saying, right? So I buy technology all the time and we do have someone here who's responsible for overseeing all technology and he has a zero influence on what I choose to buy to run our sales and marketing team. Jay: Right. And so, in the sense of if you put yourself under traditional vendor's space and you're trying to install traditional hardware, like you're selling software or other services, and now you need to get in front of Jen Spencer and, you know, who are you using to influence you. You might have somebody from HubSpot or Marketo in the room. You probably have somebody from your industry in the room that's a tech expert on your industry. In some cases, this could be accountants. They could be legal firms. They could be digital agencies. In your case, it might be a digital agency in the room. You could also have other ISVs in the room that play in ecosystems like a Marketo or HubSpot or Pardot or whichever one you play in. They're going to be in there because they know how to drive more leads for a company specifically like yours. You may have a startup in the room that's built with piece of technology and you're going to be one of their early customers so they want to make sure it succeeds. But you look at the five people in the room and it's not the printer person. It's not the person that installed your phones. So in other words, it's not the IT department. And so, if you're a traditional vendor spending all your time trying to recruit MSPs and solution providers and VARs from days gone by, guess what? You just missed out of a technology decision because your influence isn't in the room when it was made. Jen: Right. Jay: Now put yourself in the shoes of...let's talk VP of marketing and let's talk ambulatory care...healthcare clinic, midsized, 50 doctors, in the Northeast U.S. And in the room with that VP of marketing, again, it's probably that person from Marketo, HubSpot, Pardot, whatever it is, Eloqua, probably somebody that is an expert in healthcare driving leads for midsized clinics who's had success in the past, with five other clinics of the same size and scope. But these five people are different five people than what the IT department would have in the room. And so, you're not talking about routers and PCs, and you're not talking about, traditional licensing and everything else. You're talking about driving more leads or you're talking about a marketing problem. And to be relevant, vendors either a) need to train their current channels to be valuable to the VP of marketing in the clinic, which is less likely to happen. It's more likely that they then have to go and recruit and nurture these five other types of partners, and you call them alliances. You can call them whatever you want but the incentive is different, the way you manage them and measure them is different. The entire relationship is different. But the point is, there's so many more rooms that you have to be influencing now that your channel program is just invariably going to grow. Jen: So, you call these “shadow channels”, and when I think about like shadow marketing, shadow IT, usually, it's a very negative connotation to it. There's work going on that's outside of your viewpoint, that is in most cases negatively-impacting whatever the core function is. But what you just described doesn't sound negative, right? So are these shadow channels, is this the future? Is this a good thing for these organizations? Jay: Yeah, well, there's good and bad. And depending on the audience that I talk to, is which one I'll start with. The good news is businesspeople are now making business decisions around technology. All companies are becoming technology companies and all other professional organizations and industry, association, everything else, are becoming technology-based just because that's the way world works. All 27 industries now are pretty much 27 tech industries depending on agriculture, fisheries, or whatever they do. You know, that's become such a big role. So, the world has changed. And the reason it was called shadow IT or rogue IT is back in the day, where 10%, and then it became 20%, and then 30% of decisions are made by these people who have no idea what's going on with technology and they don't understand security and they don't understand backups and disaster recovery and they're not of the adult in the room which, you know, the CIO or IT department would claim to be. And so they were rogue, they need to be stumped. Well, the fact of the matter...and these are Gardener numbers, by the way, 72% of all the decisions today are now made outside of IT, so it's no longer rogue or shadow. It is literally the new normal. And the prediction by 2020 is that 90% of all decisions will be made outside of IT. So in 10 years, there's been pretty much a 180-degree turn in terms of where the decisions are made. And this isn't changing. And businesspeople are making business technology decisions and that's the way the world should work. It's been a big boom for SaaS companies. And it's been pretty hard for technology companies and hardware companies, specifically, because they're trying to still find their place in these conversations when these decisions are being made outside of their normal feasibility. Jen: It makes perfect sense and it's a good opportunity for consultants, for people like yourself to let you go in and really help some of those organizations along this evolution of the way that channel and selling today, tech buyers today has definitely changed. I want to ask you now about another topic that you've written about, that you spoke about. You talked about channel vectors or vectorization. And you said that verticalization is being replaced by hyperfocused vectorization. So I'm hoping perhaps you can clarify what you mean by that. And then, I want to explore, what today's executive needs to consider as he or she is scooping out plans to grow through channel over the next 5 years, because there are a lot of these organizations that maybe they've hit $10 million in annual recurring revenue and they're looking at, "How do we get to $100?" And they're looking at channel as a way to do that. So what do they need to know from this new vectorization perspective? Jay: Yeah, it's another example of me making up a word and then all of a sudden... Jen: I love it. Jay: It's really good for Google SEO if you actually make up your own word. It's actually pretty cheap, first of all. But all kidding aside, let's go back to the healthcare VP marketing in a midsized clinic. And you're looking at the 5 people in the room and 10 years ago, for an IT provider, it was okay to say, "Hey, I got to move from being a generalist to a specialist." "Well, what are you going to do?" "Hey, well, I'm going to specialize in healthcare." "Well, that's fantastic." So what they do is they go out and read HIPAA and HITECH, and, they get a couple people certified, and they can talk their way out of a paper bag when it comes to patient records and compliancy and even some legal. But again, the world in this journey has changed things for them. So if you're that VP of marketing at a midsized clinic and you have somebody in your office that says, "Hey, I know a lot about healthcare." You're like, "Well, that's great. That's one of the vectors. What would be even better is if you knew not only healthcare but midsized clinics, so the sub-industry. The fact that you put in a solution for a 500-doctor firm probably doesn't have a ton of relevance to me because I don't have those resources. So that's another thing. The fact that you installed in Colorado may not be as relevant as it is in New York because of the different statewide bureaucracy and everything else. I mean, there's just that 50 different systems in 50 different states. So if you start asking these questions, there's actually five vectors. And as a VP of marketing in a midsized clinic, you're not going to ever get that perfect person who has all five. "Listen, I've just done the last five clinics exactly your size, just down the street. I've just done your competitors. They're the guinea pigs. I know exactly what to do. Here's my price. I can get started right away." That would be perfect. That doesn't work. So all you only end up doing is, "If somebody knows healthcare that's better than not knowing healthcare." I put that in quotes, air quotes. But that's one vector. So, flipping it aside, "I want somebody who knows my business. I want somebody who's been successful in my sub-industry. I want to know somebody who's been successful in marketing. I don't care if you put in an accounting app, or I don't care if you put in an IT solution. I need the drive leads. I need you to be focused on my line of business. I need you to be focused on my sub-industry. I need you to focus on my region." So these are the types of things that you push back on. And if you can get two or three out of five, it's much better than just getting that generalist in the room who might have one out of five, or none out of five. Jen: I think that's such a good kind of point to make and maybe even to end on here, because we've talked about how the channel is no longer just a channel. It's no longer just kind of a one-way street or even a two-way street. I mean it is a complete ecosystem. The story you just spun about healthcare IT, about being able to plug in to Salesforce to really put that on steroids to make it work for somebody to do their business, I mean that is absolutely our present and our future of the way that sales ecosystems are growing. And organizations that embrace it, organizations like Salesforce, organizations like Microsoft, that embrace that type of channel environment are reaping the rewards of it, the benefits of that in addition to their partners as well. So I love it. I'm glad you invented the word vectorization. I'll have to start using it. Jay: Great to participate. I've actually wanted to do this since you started. But one of the key things is you asked me to look forward five years. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Jay: Vendors need to look at the toolset that they're using. And many of the tools that they're currently managing the current triangle of gold and silver and bronze partners they have the same program they built 20 years ago, they need to refresh their tools. If they're going to grow their channel by 5X, they need to seriously look at a tool like GoalBot, take collaboration to a completely different level. They need to look at a tool like Channel Mechanics. They need to look at new, fresh thinking around how to do this because if you try to force-fit your old ecosystem, your old infrastructure into this new world, it's going to be very, very difficult. And many vendors are now realizing that and looking for those right SaaS companies and others to plug together, to kind of manage these new channels, measure these new channels and set these new channels. And in the end grow with these new channels. Jen: Absolutely. I mean, it's that old saying that, "What got you to where you are today may not be what's going to get you to where you want to go tomorrow." And so, I agree wholeheartedly with that assessment. Thank you so much. I'm not going to let you go just yet, though, Jay. So since you said you listened to the podcast, you've been excited about being on it, then I'm going to ask you some other questions. So you already know this is coming. Jay: I know it. Jen: Okay. All right. So, yeah. Well, I'd like to ask some more personal questions just so we can kind of shake things up and get to know a little bit more about you as a person. So first question I want to start with is what's your favorite city? Jay: Oh, that's a good one. I have traveled to 27 countries now. All of that spent on vacation, one of the blogs I write is "Rollerblades and Red Bull," the idea is to get to every country in the world. Right now, it would be tough to say the absolute but I would say Prague. Jen: Prague, awesome. I haven't been there but I've heard amazing things about it. So I heard it's a really beautiful city. Jay: Very, very difficult to rollerblade in, by the way. Jen: Okay, I won't try that, at least not the first time I go. Okay. Question number two, are you an animal lover? Yes or no? Jay: Yes, we have...we just actually...we had two dogs and one cat. And they were all 13 or 14 years old and we lost them all within 6 months. But, we're kind of in that mode now. We've got two young daughters as well I've got two daughters in college. But we're thinking about the family pets now and looking at different breeds so very excited to rescue some new pets. Jen: Oh, good. Well, you have to keep us posted. We love pets at Allbound. Our pets have an Instagram account called "Allbound Critters." So when you do have a new pet join your family, you have to let me know so I can give you guys a shout-out there. Jay: Will do. Jen: Okay, next question for you, Mac or PC? Jay: Well, being a 20-year IBM and Lenovo guy, the answer's going to shock you, I'm 95% Apple. So from iPhones to Watch to the laptop I'm on right now, everything, except for real work, is on an Apple. When I talked about analyzing the thousands of people that run this industry and running all these AI and macros and heavy, heavy lifting, I have one super-powered, liquid-cooled, top-end gaming machine at home that I do serious work on. But everything else is Apple. Jen: Everything else is Apple. All right. All right. There you go. And last question. Let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses paid trip, where would it be to? Jay: That's a good question. So back to visiting every country in the world, the next, probably Middle Africa. Jen: Oh, what interests you about Middle Africa? Jay: A) that I haven't been there. Jen: Okay, yeah. Jay: I've been to most regions... You know, when I see the weather report that has 50 or 60 cities, most of them...well, almost of them I've been to. So now, I'm in the mode of, "I've got to go to dangerous places now." You can't go to the Middle East. A lot of Africa is off-limits. But it gets much harder to travel once you've knocked off the easy ones. Now you've got to start knocking off ones that have government warnings, or can add a little bit of risk. So that's what entices me about going to Middle Africa and maybe at Uganda, or Kenya, and help build schools or do something good for the world. Jen: Sounds wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for joining me, for sharing some of your time with us, especially calling in from Ireland where I know it's late at night. If any of our listeners would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to connect with you? If folks want to talk about going to Kenya with you, or they want to talk about fixing their channel, how should they reach you? Jay: Absolutely. My website, my blog that most of what we've talked about today, is jaymcbain.com. It's jaymcbain.com. There is at least 50 ways on there that you can contact me through every social and my cellphone and everything else. If you just want to hit me with a quick tweet. It's the letter "J" mcbain, M-C-B-A-I-N, so jmcbain. Hit me there and we can go from there. Jen: Perfect. Well, thanks again, Jay. Thanks, everyone else, for tuning in, and catch us next week for an all-new episode of The Allbound Podcast. Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the Resource Center at allbound.com. And remember, never sell alone

00:16 – Welcome to “Cyberpunk Dystopia” …we mean, “Greater Than Code!” 01:45 – Origin Stories Gay marriage: the database engineering perspective (https://qntm.org/gay) André Arko: Falsehoods programmers believe (https://andre.arko.net/2013/03/24/falsehoods-programmers-believe/) 11:38 – Ruby Together; Membership and Benefits 501(C)(6) (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopick03.pdf) 22:06 – Ensuring the Future of Ruby 27:39 – Fair Pay and Getting Developers/Companies to Pay for Stuff RethinkDB: why we failed (https://www.defmacro.org/2017/01/18/why-rethinkdb-failed.html) 39:46 – How Does Bundler Work, Anyway? [blog post] Andre Arko: How does Bundler work, anyway? @ RubyConf 2015 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DqzaqeeMgY) 44:16 – Sharing and Reusing Code 52:26 – gemstash vs geminabox OpenSSL (https://www.openssl.org/) Heartbleed (http://heartbleed.com/) Reflections: Sam: Be a member-friend of Ruby Together! Jessica: Ruby Together is an advancement in the software industry as a whole to form a trade organization that is a business related to supporting all businesses and people and making our software infrastructure maintainable. Carina: OpenSSL is back to being insufficiently funded. Support other projects like Ruby Together too. See: Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure. André: Hope that devs and companies that listen to this show with join Ruby Together. Jay: It’s smart business for businesses to support organizations like Ruby Together. Software companies have large profit margins. Monies that would be spent on taxes can be put back into our community to support key infrastructure & tooling. My call to action is that our listeners support Ruby Together and get their companies to support Ruby Together and similar organizations. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode). To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Amazon links may be affiliate links, which means you’re supporting the show when you purchase our recommendations. Thanks! Special Guests: André Arko and Carina C. Zona.

Ever wondered how to make a living with just your voice? Interested in becoming a professional voice-over artist? This week I'm joined by professional voice-over artist Jay Britton, who has done work for companies like HBO (Game of Thrones!), Marvel, Amazon, and more. He built his voice-over career from scratch in his late 20's, and in this episode, Jay shares everything you need to know if you want to be a professional voice-over artist too. We talked about how he got started, what gear he recommends for beginners, how to find work if you're just starting out, how to get your first agent, tips for improving your speaking voice, and so much more. Key Takeaways: You don't need the fanciest mic or a ton of knowledge to sound good. Just make sure you aren't clipping and do some basic treatment to your audio. Not every mic is right for your voice. You'll need to try some different mics out to see what pairs with your voice the best. If you want to make a living from voice-over work, you have to think about yourself as a business. If you're just getting started as a voice-over artist, a voice coach is one of the best investments you can make. You can make a living in voice-over without an agent. You don't need an agent to be successful. It doesn't matter how you start, it just matters that you start. You're born with the voice you are born with, that's it. You can't change that. All you can do is learn how to use your own voice to its best abilities. You're not going to get many scripts that you can read in advance, so the ability to read ahead while performing a script is essential. How Did You Start Your Career as a Voice-over Artist? Aaron: How did you get started doing voice-over work? Were you born with a golden voice, did you know from an early age that you were going to be a voice actor? Jay: Golden voice? Not exactly. I don't really have a special Barry White kind of voice. I did know from an early age that I wanted to do something with my voice. I blame the Animaniacs and all those kinds of shows for the inspiration. I just wanted to do voices; I was that guy in school who did the funny voices. Like so many people, I decided to do something sensible after college. I left college and went straight into an IT job for 10 years or so. But I got to a point in my life where IT work was just too boring; I knew I couldn't do it for the rest of my life. I asked myself what I wanted to do, and knew that it was voice-over. So I slowly started to take some steps towards getting started. Those first steps are always the scariest. The first thing I did was look for a voice coach. I booked a workshop in London and got some coaching and recorded some demos. Then (slowly) I started to try to find voice-over work. There was a long journey from then to what I have now; I definitely had a false start, kind of kept it on the sidelines for awhile. I kind of dabbled, I didn't commit to getting my voice-over business off the ground. After about 3 years of dabbling, I had a really bad day at my job (still IT) and I was talking to my wife afterwards about how much I hated it. She said, “Why don't you do the voice-over thing properly?” So that's when I started taking it seriously. I went over to the states and got some more coaching, got some real recordings done, got some new kit (that's gear), and really worked hard to make it my full-time business. So it started off slowly, but when I made my mind up that it was possible and starting applying myself, that's when it all started coming together. Aaron: So how old were you when you started dabbling? And how long did it take you to go full-time? Jay: I'd just got married… so 27? I'm 31 now, so I got started around four years ago. And I kept my job until recently. My hours at the job decreased as my voice-over work increased, and eventually I ditched the day job altogether. But in the beginning I'd work the day job Monday-Friday, 9am to 5pm, and as I got more bookings for voice-over work my schedule got a little crazy. So the transition was hard but it was worth it. What Kind of Gear Do You Need to Get Started as a Voice-over Artist? Aaron: What kind of gear did you have when you were starting out? Jay: I had (and this is terrible)… a $30 USB microphone. It had a built-in pop shield. For my booth (my entire sound treatment), I had two pieces of foam stood up in a “V” behind the microphone, and a blanket over my head. Not terribly professional, but it got me started. Aaron: Did you actually do some paying gigs with that setup? Jay: Oh yeah, I booked a lot of work on that mic. I booked and recorded a Marvel gig on that kit. I was supposed to do the voice of Jarvis for some Avengers promo stuff. That's when I started feeling a little bit of imposter syndrome. It was just me in my little pop-up booth in my house in England with my $30 USB microphone. But they had no idea; I was just a voice on a microphone and I did the job, and that was that. Who Handles the Post-Production for a Voice-over Artist? Aaron: How much did you know about things like setting input gain levels and EQ and compression and all that post production stuff? Was that handled by you or did your clients do it? Jay: At that point I knew very little about it. I was flying by the seat of my pants. Most clients at that stage didn't require much, just a bit of cleanup and normalizing. I knew that I didn't want to go over the red line on the meters; if you're chopping the top off, dial it down. But that was about it, I really didn't know much about recording and post-production when I was getting started. Aaron: I think a lot of people will be relieved to hear that. I talk about sound quality and post-production a lot because I hate to see podcasts ruined by poor audio quality, but that's something you have to learn through trial and error. You can't let it keep you from getting started. Jay: Absolutely. I'm a big believer in simplicity. I'm talking to you on a USB microphone right now because my home studio is currently being put back together. You don't need the fanciest mic or a ton of knowledge to sound good. Just make sure you aren't clipping and do some basic treatment to your audio. Jay's Favorite Gear for Voice-over Work Aaron: So which USB mic are you using currently? And what other gear do you have in your home studio? Jay: I'm recording this episode with a Rode NT USB mic ($170), which is really nice. It's not a very “hot” mic, so it's good if you're in a noisy environment. It's kind of my backup/travel mic. In my main studio I use a Sennheiser 416 shotgun mic ($999). It's a beautiful mic. I also have the “voice-over standard”, the Neumann TLM 103 ($1299). I record everything through a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 interface ($180) (with a 2i2 as a backup). Not every mic is right for your voice. You'll need to try some different mics out to see what pairs with your voice the best. Jay's Tips for How to Get Started Doing Professional Voice-Over Work Aaron: What advice would you give to someone interested in making a living doing voice-over work? Jay: The first thing I'd recommend is forgetting about the creative side of it when you're first getting into it. You are starting a business. You have to get your head around that. You're going to be pretty isolated as a voice-over artist; most of your work is going to be done from home. You have to approach it like you're starting a business. You have to think about things like your vocal training, where you're going to invest your money, how you're going to brand and market your voice, what your competition is like, what the market wants at the moment… You have to think about things like that. If you think about those things you'll have a massive advantage over someone who just buys a mic and records some stuff. If you want to make a living from voice-over work, you have to think about yourself as a business. I'm a huge believer in voice coaching as well. I've had four different coaches since I got started. Each genre has particular requirements, and a voice-over coach can help you understand those things and also the industry as a whole. If you're just getting started as a voice-over artist, a voice coach is one of the best investments you can make. How to Find Voice-over Work if You're Just Getting Started Jay: After you get a simple home studio setup, you can start looking for work. And there's really only three ways you can get work: First, through an agent. Second, through “pay to play” websites, where you pay to become a member and you get access to auditions. And third, through direct marketing; reaching out directly to production companies. You phone them up and say, “Hey, I'm a voice-over actor, do you guys needs voices? Here's my demo reel.” Start building relationships, and if you have a plan and you hit all three of those, you'll start booking work. Aaron: Can you share how you got started? Which did you do first, and what worked best for you? Jay: I had some pretty awful reels (demos) when I first started, but I signed up for a pay to play website called Voice 123 and I got a couple of gigs there. That was where I dabbled for awhile; I stayed on that site and picked up a bit of work here and there. When I decided I was going to do it properly, I put about $15,000 on a credit card to train with a commercial coach, an animation coach, and a promotion coach, and I flew out to Los Angeles to get some proper reels done. Once I had those, I hit all the pay to play websites again and started doing direct marketing. I started doing research on Twitter and Google, finding the production companies and phoning them up, giving them my reels and my website and stuff like that. I also started networking, meeting other voice-over actors, meeting game producers, going to events and getting my name out there. Once I had a decent offering, that's when I went to the agents and said, “Here I am, this is what I've got. Represent me, dammit!” Aaron: Sounds like a fantastic strategy. And hey, it worked. Do I Need an Agent to Find Work as a Voice-over Actor? Jay: There's a common misconception that you get your work through an agent, and these days that's just not the case. Thanks to the internet, anyone can find your website and hire you. Agents will always have their place because many of them look after the niche and “big” jobs, things like Coca-Cola advertisements and huge triple-A games. But so much work is now on the pay to play websites and through production companies. You can make a living in voice-over without an agent. You don't need an agent to be successful. I love my agents, but they don't make up the majority of my income. You don't need to worry about getting an agent when you're just getting started. In fact, agents won't take you on until you've got a lot of stuff to offer them. Voice-over Gear for People on a Budget Aaron: I know earlier you mentioned that you got started on a 30 dollar USB microphone. Do you have any gear recommendations for new voice actors who don't want to spend a ton of money to get started? Jay: That was 6 years ago and USB mics are way better these days. There's a starter kit that I recommend from Focusrite. It comes with a microphone, a Scarlett 2i4 interface, and some headphones. Basically everything you need to get started for around 200 dollars (you will need to buy a pop filter and a mic stand, though). A basic setup like that is all you need, and then just sit in a closet with some pillows and a duvet over your head. I'm a big fan of simplicity. Just get started. You can always buy a better microphone later once you've made some money. It doesn't matter how you start, it just matters that you start. You can always buy a better microphone, you can always build a voice-over booth. But the sure-fire way to make sure nothing ever happens is to never start in the first place. It doesn't matter how you start, just start. Note: If you're interested in learning more about affordable gear for voice-over or podcasting, check out https://kit.com/thepodcastdude/podcasting-gear. Jay's Tips for How to Be a Better Speaker Aaron: Are people born with great voices, or is that something you can teach yourself? What are your tips for improving your voice and the way you talk? Jay: Some people are both with a voice that makes a nice sound. Is that relevant, does that directly relate to their potential success as a voice actor? No. Not in the slightest. Like I said earlier, I don't have an amazing voice. I have a standard voice that sounds like everyone else's, and so do most of my colleagues. You've got guys like Don LaFontaine who have a deep and boomy voice (the “In a world…” movie trailer voice), but you wouldn't book him to do a corporate voice-over gig. His voice just wouldn't sound right. You're born with the voice you are born with, that's it. You can't change that. All you can do is learn how to use your own voice to it's best abilities. I'm proud of the fact that I'm able to do a broad range of characters with my voice. I can go high, I can go a little low, I can do accents and I can make my voice sound funny. But I'm never going to book a movie trailer; I don't have the right voice for it. That's ok. Part of working in voice-over is understanding that you might book work in genres that you don't necessarily want to work in. You might want to do movie trailers but if you don't have the right voice for it, you won't get the gig. This is why you need coaching. You need to understand things like, if you're reading a promo script for a TV show, you need to know how to make the read less funny, or how to change the inflection. So much is based on melody. Knowing how to play with your voice is so much more important then the voice you were born with. One of my coaches said, “As far as booking a job goes, 95% of it is how well you understand the copy and how well you perform the copy, and the last 5% is genetics.” Rather than worry about how your natural voice sounds, worry about what you do have control over, which is how you use the voice that you have. How to Get Better at Reading Scripts Out Loud Jay: Want to get better at reading scripts? Read out loud every day. It's not good enough just to read, you need to read out loud everyday. One skill that is absolutely critical is being able to read ahead of what you're currently saying out loud when you're reading a script. You'll make less mistakes because you'll know what words are coming, and you'll very rarely mess up the intonation of a sentence. You're not going to get many scripts that you can read in advance, so the ability to read ahead while performing a script is essential. Reading ahead will feel unnatural at first, but after you do it for awhile it will get easier and you'll start making less mistakes. This is especially important for video games because you'll often get thrown into recording sessions without a chance to read the script or even get a full idea of what your character is like. It's an immensely helpful skill because no one in this business has any time. If you can nail something on the first take, then you'll do great. Another tip is go and do some improv and learn how to ad-lib. It'll speed up the auditory part of your brain, you'll learn how to come up with words and get them out quickly. That's a great skill to have. Increase that “brain-to-mouth” speed. Q&A: Tobi asks: What are your thoughts about working with unions? Jay: It really depends. If you're just starting out, there's no reason to join the union, and more and more work is going non-union in the US. So if you're in the states and you're trying to do voice-over work, don't join the union until you're forced to join the union. You can actually book your first union job without being a part of the union, and it's $5000 to join after that, so at the start of your career, it's not really necessary. Richard asks: What are some of the best methods to get in front of casting agents? What elements are they looking for in a vocal reel? Is sending in a vocal reel the best way to get hired for voice over gigs/start a relationship with casting agents? Jay: There's two sides to this. There's casting agents (or as we call them here in the UK, casting directors), and then there are agents. An agent will represent you and present you to a casting director (who will then consider you for a job). If you want to get yourself an agent, the best way to do that is by referral. So make sure you have a great sound reel (demos) and do lots of networking with other voice actors, especially the ones who work with agency you'd like to work with. Don't be weird, but develop relationships with other voice actors and agent. If you're good, they'll notice. Thousands of people want to be voice actors and work with these agents, so you've got to find a way to stand above the crowd. Doing great work and getting referred by another successful voice actor is one of the best ways to get an agent. In terms of working with casting directors, generally they are “behind the scenes” people. They're not the most receptive to being bombarded by voice actors. The best way to get to know them is to organically get a job for them and just start a relationship with them. Another way to meet casting agents is on Twitter. Social media in general is a great tool for growing relationships, just don't be salesy about it. If they tweet a funny picture of their cat, don't reply with “I'm a voice actor, please hire me!” Ultimately, people work with people. Don't smash your voice reel in their face; take the time to build a relationship. That's the way I play it. Aaron: Relationships are so important if you want to be successful as a freelancer. When I was getting started as a podcast editor, most of my best clients came from referals. I always made sure I was friendly and I did a good job and if I saw an opportunity to provide some value, I'd do that. Eventually people grew to trust me, and if they knew someone who needed my services, they'd send them to me. So I got a ton of work that way, and I think that works in almost any industry. Jay: Exactly. I've done voice-over work for 22 games in the past 2-3 years, and something like 80% of those jobs came through networking. Another tip is give it time. It's natural to want everything to happen yesterday, but it takes time to develop those relationships. I'm going to be working on a big game project pretty soon, and I only got the gig after talking with the casting director for over eight months. That's a long time to pursue a lead, but things don't happen overnight. You've got to be prepared to play the long game. Eric asks: Do clients expect you to do post-processing on your recordings, or is that something they typically handle? Is it important for you to know how to master your own recordings? Jay: It's usually a 50/50 split. If I book something through my agent, I'm usually going to a studio where they have professional audio engineers to handle everything. If you record something at home, the client will most likely expect you to handle the mastering. If you're booking work through the pay to play websites or through direct marketing, they're probably going to expect you to do the post-production. Quite a few of my clients also want me to match the audio to the video as well. In general, most clients just want the audio to be clean and pretty level in terms of dynamics. So you do need to be comfortable with editing audio and doing basic treatment (equalizing, compression, normalizing). Find Jay Britton Online: You can find Jay's website at VoiceOfJayBritton.com, and follow him on Twitter @voicejaybritton. If you'd like to make a living as a voice actor, I highly suggest hiring Jay for coaching. It's an investment that will pay off 10x in the long run. Cool Stuff to Check Out: Recommended Gear: https://kit.com/thepodcastdude Podcast: https://thepodcastdude.simplecast.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/thepodcastdude Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thepodcastdude Successful Podcasting: http://successfulpodcasting.com Simplecast Blog: http://blog.simplecast.com/

Ever wondered how to make a living with just your voice? Interested in becoming a professional voice-over artist? This week I'm joined by professional voice-over artist Jay Britton, who has done work for companies like HBO (Game of Thrones!), Marvel, Amazon, and more. He built his voice-over career from scratch in his late 20's, and in this episode, Jay shares everything you need to know if you want to be a professional voice-over artist too. We talked about how he got started, what gear he recommends for beginners, how to find work if you're just starting out, how to get your first agent, tips for improving your speaking voice, and so much more. Key Takeaways: You don’t need the fanciest mic or a ton of knowledge to sound good. Just make sure you aren’t clipping and do some basic treatment to your audio. Not every mic is right for your voice. You’ll need to try some different mics out to see what pairs with your voice the best. If you want to make a living from voice-over work, you have to think about yourself as a business. If you’re just getting started as a voice-over artist, a voice coach is one of the best investments you can make. You can make a living in voice-over without an agent. You don’t need an agent to be successful. It doesn’t matter how you start, it just matters that you start. You’re born with the voice you are born with, that’s it. You can’t change that. All you can do is learn how to use your own voice to its best abilities. You’re not going to get many scripts that you can read in advance, so the ability to read ahead while performing a script is essential. How Did You Start Your Career as a Voice-over Artist? Aaron: How did you get started doing voice-over work? Were you born with a golden voice, did you know from an early age that you were going to be a voice actor? Jay: Golden voice? Not exactly. I don’t really have a special Barry White kind of voice. I did know from an early age that I wanted to do something with my voice. I blame the Animaniacs and all those kinds of shows for the inspiration. I just wanted to do voices; I was that guy in school who did the funny voices. Like so many people, I decided to do something sensible after college. I left college and went straight into an IT job for 10 years or so. But I got to a point in my life where IT work was just too boring; I knew I couldn’t do it for the rest of my life. I asked myself what I wanted to do, and knew that it was voice-over. So I slowly started to take some steps towards getting started. Those first steps are always the scariest. The first thing I did was look for a voice coach. I booked a workshop in London and got some coaching and recorded some demos. Then (slowly) I started to try to find voice-over work. There was a long journey from then to what I have now; I definitely had a false start, kind of kept it on the sidelines for awhile. I kind of dabbled, I didn’t commit to getting my voice-over business off the ground. After about 3 years of dabbling, I had a really bad day at my job (still IT) and I was talking to my wife afterwards about how much I hated it. She said, “Why don’t you do the voice-over thing properly?” So that’s when I started taking it seriously. I went over to the states and got some more coaching, got some real recordings done, got some new kit (that’s gear), and really worked hard to make it my full-time business. So it started off slowly, but when I made my mind up that it was possible and starting applying myself, that’s when it all started coming together. Aaron: So how old were you when you started dabbling? And how long did it take you to go full-time? Jay: I’d just got married… so 27? I’m 31 now, so I got started around four years ago. And I kept my job until recently. My hours at the job decreased as my voice-over work increased, and eventually I ditched the day job altogether. But in the beginning I’d work the day job Monday-Friday, 9am to 5pm, and as I got more bookings for voice-over work my schedule got a little crazy. So the transition was hard but it was worth it. What Kind of Gear Do You Need to Get Started as a Voice-over Artist? Aaron: What kind of gear did you have when you were starting out? Jay: I had (and this is terrible)… a $30 USB microphone. It had a built-in pop shield. For my booth (my entire sound treatment), I had two pieces of foam stood up in a “V” behind the microphone, and a blanket over my head. Not terribly professional, but it got me started. Aaron: Did you actually do some paying gigs with that setup? Jay: Oh yeah, I booked a lot of work on that mic. I booked and recorded a Marvel gig on that kit. I was supposed to do the voice of Jarvis for some Avengers promo stuff. That’s when I started feeling a little bit of imposter syndrome. It was just me in my little pop-up booth in my house in England with my $30 USB microphone. But they had no idea; I was just a voice on a microphone and I did the job, and that was that. Who Handles the Post-Production for a Voice-over Artist? Aaron: How much did you know about things like setting input gain levels and EQ and compression and all that post production stuff? Was that handled by you or did your clients do it? Jay: At that point I knew very little about it. I was flying by the seat of my pants. Most clients at that stage didn’t require much, just a bit of cleanup and normalizing. I knew that I didn’t want to go over the red line on the meters; if you’re chopping the top off, dial it down. But that was about it, I really didn’t know much about recording and post-production when I was getting started. Aaron: I think a lot of people will be relieved to hear that. I talk about sound quality and post-production a lot because I hate to see podcasts ruined by poor audio quality, but that’s something you have to learn through trial and error. You can’t let it keep you from getting started. Jay: Absolutely. I’m a big believer in simplicity. I’m talking to you on a USB microphone right now because my home studio is currently being put back together. You don’t need the fanciest mic or a ton of knowledge to sound good. Just make sure you aren’t clipping and do some basic treatment to your audio. Jay’s Favorite Gear for Voice-over Work Aaron: So which USB mic are you using currently? And what other gear do you have in your home studio? Jay: I’m recording this episode with a Rode NT USB mic ($170), which is really nice. It’s not a very “hot” mic, so it’s good if you’re in a noisy environment. It’s kind of my backup/travel mic. In my main studio I use a Sennheiser 416 shotgun mic ($999). It’s a beautiful mic. I also have the “voice-over standard”, the Neumann TLM 103 ($1299). I record everything through a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 interface ($180) (with a 2i2 as a backup). Not every mic is right for your voice. You’ll need to try some different mics out to see what pairs with your voice the best. Jay’s Tips for How to Get Started Doing Professional Voice-Over Work Aaron: What advice would you give to someone interested in making a living doing voice-over work? Jay: The first thing I’d recommend is forgetting about the creative side of it when you’re first getting into it. You are starting a business. You have to get your head around that. You’re going to be pretty isolated as a voice-over artist; most of your work is going to be done from home. You have to approach it like you’re starting a business. You have to think about things like your vocal training, where you’re going to invest your money, how you’re going to brand and market your voice, what your competition is like, what the market wants at the moment… You have to think about things like that. If you think about those things you’ll have a massive advantage over someone who just buys a mic and records some stuff. If you want to make a living from voice-over work, you have to think about yourself as a business. I’m a huge believer in voice coaching as well. I’ve had four different coaches since I got started. Each genre has particular requirements, and a voice-over coach can help you understand those things and also the industry as a whole. If you’re just getting started as a voice-over artist, a voice coach is one of the best investments you can make. How to Find Voice-over Work if You’re Just Getting Started Jay: After you get a simple home studio setup, you can start looking for work. And there’s really only three ways you can get work: First, through an agent. Second, through “pay to play” websites, where you pay to become a member and you get access to auditions. And third, through direct marketing; reaching out directly to production companies. You phone them up and say, “Hey, I’m a voice-over actor, do you guys needs voices? Here’s my demo reel.” Start building relationships, and if you have a plan and you hit all three of those, you’ll start booking work. Aaron: Can you share how you got started? Which did you do first, and what worked best for you? Jay: I had some pretty awful reels (demos) when I first started, but I signed up for a pay to play website called Voice 123 and I got a couple of gigs there. That was where I dabbled for awhile; I stayed on that site and picked up a bit of work here and there. When I decided I was going to do it properly, I put about $15,000 on a credit card to train with a commercial coach, an animation coach, and a promotion coach, and I flew out to Los Angeles to get some proper reels done. Once I had those, I hit all the pay to play websites again and started doing direct marketing. I started doing research on Twitter and Google, finding the production companies and phoning them up, giving them my reels and my website and stuff like that. I also started networking, meeting other voice-over actors, meeting game producers, going to events and getting my name out there. Once I had a decent offering, that’s when I went to the agents and said, “Here I am, this is what I’ve got. Represent me, dammit!” Aaron: Sounds like a fantastic strategy. And hey, it worked. Do I Need an Agent to Find Work as a Voice-over Actor? Jay: There’s a common misconception that you get your work through an agent, and these days that’s just not the case. Thanks to the internet, anyone can find your website and hire you. Agents will always have their place because many of them look after the niche and “big” jobs, things like Coca-Cola advertisements and huge triple-A games. But so much work is now on the pay to play websites and through production companies. You can make a living in voice-over without an agent. You don’t need an agent to be successful. I love my agents, but they don’t make up the majority of my income. You don’t need to worry about getting an agent when you’re just getting started. In fact, agents won’t take you on until you’ve got a lot of stuff to offer them. Voice-over Gear for People on a Budget Aaron: I know earlier you mentioned that you got started on a 30 dollar USB microphone. Do you have any gear recommendations for new voice actors who don’t want to spend a ton of money to get started? Jay: That was 6 years ago and USB mics are way better these days. There’s a starter kit that I recommend from Focusrite. It comes with a microphone, a Scarlett 2i4 interface, and some headphones. Basically everything you need to get started for around 200 dollars (you will need to buy a pop filter and a mic stand, though). A basic setup like that is all you need, and then just sit in a closet with some pillows and a duvet over your head. I’m a big fan of simplicity. Just get started. You can always buy a better microphone later once you’ve made some money. It doesn’t matter how you start, it just matters that you start. You can always buy a better microphone, you can always build a voice-over booth. But the sure-fire way to make sure nothing ever happens is to never start in the first place. It doesn’t matter how you start, just start. Note: If you’re interested in learning more about affordable gear for voice-over or podcasting, check out https://kit.com/thepodcastdude/podcasting-gear. Jay’s Tips for How to Be a Better Speaker Aaron: Are people born with great voices, or is that something you can teach yourself? What are your tips for improving your voice and the way you talk? Jay: Some people are both with a voice that makes a nice sound. Is that relevant, does that directly relate to their potential success as a voice actor? No. Not in the slightest. Like I said earlier, I don’t have an amazing voice. I have a standard voice that sounds like everyone else’s, and so do most of my colleagues. You’ve got guys like Don LaFontaine who have a deep and boomy voice (the “In a world…” movie trailer voice), but you wouldn’t book him to do a corporate voice-over gig. His voice just wouldn’t sound right. You’re born with the voice you are born with, that’s it. You can’t change that. All you can do is learn how to use your own voice to it’s best abilities. I’m proud of the fact that I’m able to do a broad range of characters with my voice. I can go high, I can go a little low, I can do accents and I can make my voice sound funny. But I’m never going to book a movie trailer; I don’t have the right voice for it. That’s ok. Part of working in voice-over is understanding that you might book work in genres that you don’t necessarily want to work in. You might want to do movie trailers but if you don’t have the right voice for it, you won’t get the gig. This is why you need coaching. You need to understand things like, if you’re reading a promo script for a TV show, you need to know how to make the read less funny, or how to change the inflection. So much is based on melody. Knowing how to play with your voice is so much more important then the voice you were born with. One of my coaches said, “As far as booking a job goes, 95% of it is how well you understand the copy and how well you perform the copy, and the last 5% is genetics.” Rather than worry about how your natural voice sounds, worry about what you do have control over, which is how you use the voice that you have. How to Get Better at Reading Scripts Out Loud Jay: Want to get better at reading scripts? Read out loud every day. It’s not good enough just to read, you need to read out loud everyday. One skill that is absolutely critical is being able to read ahead of what you’re currently saying out loud when you’re reading a script. You’ll make less mistakes because you’ll know what words are coming, and you’ll very rarely mess up the intonation of a sentence. You’re not going to get many scripts that you can read in advance, so the ability to read ahead while performing a script is essential. Reading ahead will feel unnatural at first, but after you do it for awhile it will get easier and you’ll start making less mistakes. This is especially important for video games because you’ll often get thrown into recording sessions without a chance to read the script or even get a full idea of what your character is like. It’s an immensely helpful skill because no one in this business has any time. If you can nail something on the first take, then you’ll do great. Another tip is go and do some improv and learn how to ad-lib. It’ll speed up the auditory part of your brain, you’ll learn how to come up with words and get them out quickly. That’s a great skill to have. Increase that “brain-to-mouth” speed. Q&A: Tobi asks: What are your thoughts about working with unions? Jay: It really depends. If you’re just starting out, there’s no reason to join the union, and more and more work is going non-union in the US. So if you’re in the states and you’re trying to do voice-over work, don’t join the union until you’re forced to join the union. You can actually book your first union job without being a part of the union, and it’s $5000 to join after that, so at the start of your career, it’s not really necessary. Richard asks: What are some of the best methods to get in front of casting agents? What elements are they looking for in a vocal reel? Is sending in a vocal reel the best way to get hired for voice over gigs/start a relationship with casting agents? Jay: There’s two sides to this. There’s casting agents (or as we call them here in the UK, casting directors), and then there are agents. An agent will represent you and present you to a casting director (who will then consider you for a job). If you want to get yourself an agent, the best way to do that is by referral. So make sure you have a great sound reel (demos) and do lots of networking with other voice actors, especially the ones who work with agency you’d like to work with. Don’t be weird, but develop relationships with other voice actors and agent. If you’re good, they’ll notice. Thousands of people want to be voice actors and work with these agents, so you’ve got to find a way to stand above the crowd. Doing great work and getting referred by another successful voice actor is one of the best ways to get an agent. In terms of working with casting directors, generally they are “behind the scenes” people. They’re not the most receptive to being bombarded by voice actors. The best way to get to know them is to organically get a job for them and just start a relationship with them. Another way to meet casting agents is on Twitter. Social media in general is a great tool for growing relationships, just don’t be salesy about it. If they tweet a funny picture of their cat, don’t reply with “I’m a voice actor, please hire me!” Ultimately, people work with people. Don’t smash your voice reel in their face; take the time to build a relationship. That’s the way I play it. Aaron: Relationships are so important if you want to be successful as a freelancer. When I was getting started as a podcast editor, most of my best clients came from referals. I always made sure I was friendly and I did a good job and if I saw an opportunity to provide some value, I’d do that. Eventually people grew to trust me, and if they knew someone who needed my services, they’d send them to me. So I got a ton of work that way, and I think that works in almost any industry. Jay: Exactly. I’ve done voice-over work for 22 games in the past 2-3 years, and something like 80% of those jobs came through networking. Another tip is give it time. It’s natural to want everything to happen yesterday, but it takes time to develop those relationships. I’m going to be working on a big game project pretty soon, and I only got the gig after talking with the casting director for over eight months. That’s a long time to pursue a lead, but things don’t happen overnight. You’ve got to be prepared to play the long game. Eric asks: Do clients expect you to do post-processing on your recordings, or is that something they typically handle? Is it important for you to know how to master your own recordings? Jay: It’s usually a 50/50 split. If I book something through my agent, I’m usually going to a studio where they have professional audio engineers to handle everything. If you record something at home, the client will most likely expect you to handle the mastering. If you’re booking work through the pay to play websites or through direct marketing, they’re probably going to expect you to do the post-production. Quite a few of my clients also want me to match the audio to the video as well. In general, most clients just want the audio to be clean and pretty level in terms of dynamics. So you do need to be comfortable with editing audio and doing basic treatment (equalizing, compression, normalizing). Find Jay Britton Online: You can find Jay’s website at VoiceOfJayBritton.com, and follow him on Twitter @voicejaybritton. If you’d like to make a living as a voice actor, I highly suggest hiring Jay for coaching. It’s an investment that will pay off 10x in the long run. 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