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Join us for this enlightening episode of VRTAC-QM Manager Minute, where we explore the transformative power of Value-Based Purchasing (VBP), also known as Performance-Based Payment (PBP). In the studio, we have Chip Kenney, Co-Project Director of the VRTAC-QM, and Lisa Mills, a consultant and subject matter expert in VBP, sharing their expertise. VBP is more than just a financial model—it's a strategic shift designed to drive better outcomes for individuals with disabilities. By aligning provider incentives with measurable performance outcomes, State Vocational Rehabilitation Agencies (SVRAs) can enhance the quality of services, improve consumer results, and optimize costs. Tune in to hear Chip and Lisa discuss how SVRAs can harness the power of this approach to revolutionize service delivery and create a meaningful impact. Whether you're considering adopting VBP or seeking to refine your approach, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss! Value-Based Payment Methodologies to Advance Competitive Integrated Employment: A Mix of Inspiring Examples from Across the Country   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   Chip: Virginia reached out and they wanted to include value based purchasing specifically in their Disability Innovation grant. I said, this is an opportunity we can't pass.   Lisa: Is there anything about our payment structure that incentivizes or rewards this kind of quality that we're saying we're not getting, thus reduce the amount we're investing in unsuccessful closures.   Chip: When we can get to that point where we can identify and measure and demonstrate and get quality outcomes that will move this whole system a gigantic step forward.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are Chip Kenney, Co-Project Director of the VRTAC for Quality Management, and Lisa Mills, Consultant and Subject Matter Expert to the QM on Value-Based Purchasing. So here's a little context for our listeners. Value-Based Purchasing, also known as Performance-Based Payment, is a model that offers financial incentives to providers for meeting certain performance measures. And as state rehab agencies look to improve outcomes for individuals with disabilities, the quality of purchased VR services, and overall cost effectiveness. A Performance-Based approach might be an option, so I don't want to steal their thunder, and I'm going to let my guests discuss what they're doing today. So let's dig in. Lisa, lets' start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you find your way kind of into this VR space?   Lisa: Sure. So I've been in the world of disabilities for my career, for the entire career. So, 33 years, I think where now I've lost count. But about 20 years ago, I got really interested in employment working with Self-advocates way back before there was such widespread support for ending Subminimum wage. You know, the support that we do see now, but that was at a time when that it wasn't even being discussed. But Self-advocates were very clear that they wanted to earn more money and have more opportunities. So I got interested in supported employment and why we weren't using it very much. And so I started working with Medicaid and long term support agencies on improving employment services and outcomes. Back then, there was something called the Medicaid Infrastructure Grants, which allowed states to create Medicaid buy ins for working individuals with disabilities. So I really dug in around what were we doing around employment services. And of course, that brought us to the relationship with VR. And about 16 years ago, I started working on customized employment and developing ways to pay for customized employment, and worked with a couple VR agencies at the time on payment structures for customize. And then most recently, I'm a mom of a transition age son who used VR supported employment services to get his first and second jobs, and he's been employed in competitive, integrated employment since 2020. He's about to turn 21 and that has changed his life. So I'm a firm believer.   Carol: Good for him. That's really cool to know. I always love it finding out the stories people have, because you never know, we all get here a different way. But I love your path. So Chipper over to you. And I'm going to say Chipper because I'm naughty. He Chip is my colleague. So for our listeners I do like to rib Chip a bit. So Chip, how did you find your way into the VR space?   Chip: So very similar to Lisa. My whole career has been in public rehabilitation for a bit then technical assistance centers, but fast forwarding to about 2009 was interested in customized employment and its applications, and the need for VR systems to have an employment system that really addressed what people with the most significant disabilities needed to be successful, and I was sort of glommed on to that space ever since. And then with the passage of WIOA, it just seemed a really necessary connection that VR agencies and systems have something new they can offer. People who would have considered going into sheltered employment now are coming out. What are you going to offer them that's new and different from when they went in and have been at it ever since, mainly focused on the implementation side of it, because there's a bunch of trainers in that space and they're all really good. But we learned early on that it takes an infrastructure to embed, implement and sustain customized employment over a period of time. And so that's been my focus the last several years. I mean, we're still learning a lot. And rate structure is part of that, which, I mean, I've known Lisa for years too, but rate structure is something every agency struggles with. And when the opportunity came to work with Lisa on this and move this forward, I thought, this is a big missing piece that we have to fill.   Carol: Absolutely, I'm underscoring that 100% because we know we get a lot of rate work with our QM work and the whole idea and customized employment with that sustainability. You can have the great idea. And we're going to do the thing and we're all excited. But then what happens. Year one and two and three and four as it goes on and it all fades away. And we don't want that to fade away. We need to have that good sustainability plan. So Chip, how did you get involved in bringing Lisa on board? What was kind of the impetus of that?   Chip: Virginia reached out. The state of Virginia reached out to us and they wanted to include value based purchasing. And they mentioned that specifically in their Disability Innovation grant, and somebody referred them to me. I mean, I knew a bit about it, but then as soon as I saw the Lisa connection and started reading her work on it, I said, this is an opportunity we can't pass, even though I don't have any experience. But Lisa brings all that and the knowledge and the background and said, it's really important to be a part of this.   Carol: Very cool. So, Lisa, I understand you have a very unique superpower. You can speak and interpret languages across multiple partner systems. How did you develop that?   Lisa: Well, I guess I'm a bit of a policy wonk. I did a lot of interviewing of people from different systems to try to understand what was going on with partnerships, what were the challenges. And this was probably 12, 13 years ago. I was doing some work with ODEP at the time, blending and braiding. And when I was doing a lot of my interviews interviewing the different partners, including VR, I figured out that a lot of what was going on at that time was sequencing. It was really not blending or braiding, and if we wanted to get to braiding and ultimately to blending, I felt like we really had to find what was going on then as something foundational, you know? And that's where I kind of coined the term sequencing and said, this is really what we're doing, but we can help people understand then what it means to switch from sequencing to braiding, what it means to switch from braiding to blending, and really start to get people interested in the advantages of moving away from sequencing. So it really was just wanting to dig into each system enough to figure out what solutions might improve collaboration and outcomes. Sometimes it can be easy to lay out all the issues, right? Everything that's not working, but to really dig into each system and figure out where could we align ourselves, where are we aligned, and we just don't realize it? That was more, I guess, the policy wonk side of me.   Carol: I love that because I think I've been on lots of work groups over the years, I mean, I just have when we've worked between, you know, departments of education and your state Department of like maybe developmental disabilities or whatever you are calling it back in the day. And then in the VR system when we all had different ways of describing everything and we could get stuck in the what's the problem? Here's all the problems. We got problems. We have a million problems. Here's all the hundred problems we have to get through before we can get to a solution. But if you go in and go, I love that. Like, how are we aligned right now and what are the things that we could build off of right now instead of always focusing on that whole myriad of things? But I think understanding each other, how we speak about things and we may say the same word, but it means something different to each of us. Once we can kind of clear up that dictionary and talk the same language, it makes it much easier to comprehend what's going on in each other's systems and how that can then work together. I love that you have that. So what is the essence of Value-Based Purchasing?   Lisa: So to me it's quality service combined with efficient service that results in quality outcomes. So I think about that. Efficiency without quality that would not lead to quality outcomes. We'd hurry up and do things, but we wouldn't really see the quality outcomes we wanted to see. And at the same time, if you have a quality service that goes on and on and on, you lose the cost effectiveness and you typically you lose the job seeker. They're going to give up or go find a job some other way. So to me, we have to recognize we need both quality and efficiency in the way services are delivered and that we have a set of quality outcomes we want to achieve. And we have to ask ourselves, to what extent are we getting those quality outcomes? And to me, if we can figure out a payment structure that balances rewarding quality and efficiency and is really clear about what is quality and service delivery, what is efficiency and service delivery, and then what are we looking for? As quality indicators and outcomes? We can design a payment structure that really will deliver on that. And I think as you start to think about that, you realize how the existing payment structures really aren't set up to do those things for various reasons. And that really, I think, helps people buy into the idea that there might be a better way to do this. And this idea of value based purchasing might actually have some legs.   Carol: So that payment structure piece, that's my interest. How did you really dig in and kind of figure it out? Because it sounds good and I understand all the things you're saying about quality outcomes, but how when it comes down, like putting the rubber to the road, do you get at the nuts and bolts of figuring out the payment structure?   Lisa: So everybody always wants that. Next they say, so tell me what it is. And I always say it is what you need to develop locally in your system. You need buy in from those who are purchasing and those who are providing, and you've got to bring them to the table in a constructive way. So in a really collaborative way, sometimes we talk about it as co-creation and you dig into what do we agree is quality service, how do we differentiate quality service from service that we would say is not high quality. And then what do we agree is efficient service? How do we differentiate efficient service from service we would say is inefficient but very important to VR agencies, at least those I've spoken to. Are these quality outcomes, the career path outcomes, the jobs with benefits, the jobs with more hours and better pay? You know, some of these things, you're just not necessarily seeing a lot. You're getting outcomes that you can count as a 26 closure, but they aren't the kind of quality outcomes that, and you see some revolving door effect of certain people who and I know that's a big issue in some states or you see a lot of dropouts in the process. So in every state it's important to sit together and figure out what should we be doing better, what does better quality look like, and then what is quality and efficient service look like? That's how you get the buy in to establish a payment structure that where people want to implement it and intend for it to work. I can certainly share examples of how that co-creation works going on elsewhere and what the ultimate outcome was, but that is what happened there. And I really like the idea that and really believe that you've got to do a local co-creation process to get to something everybody's bought into and something that has a high probability of working. I would never say, oh, Value-Based Purchasing is this. It's only this. Or you just take this model from this other state and you plunk it down here. That won't work.   Carol: Yeah, I can see why you sing to Chip's heart there. Because he's all about systems work, you know, and that whole and everybody's systems in your state are so different. How you're set up, what your relationships are like between your providers and yourself and other entities and all of that. So I do like that you're speaking to that and you can't just pick up and replicate because you've got all your nuances that are happening in your state, and you need to understand those before you can get to the agreeable solution. That makes a lot of sense.   Chip: And it's not only that, and we're finding this to be true now that providers are not a monolith, that there's not a state where you can go, okay, every provider looks like every other provider. There are a lot of uniquenesses, a lot of variables that have to be taken into account to bring at least the majority of them on board. And that's we're finding that to be true as every state system is different, every provider network or non-network is different.   Carol: Absolutely. And even when you think about the states, kind of just the like the geographic challenges they have and the things that are going on, we've saw such an increase, especially after Covid with people moving and some of the states go like our cost of living in certain areas has gone up exponentially, like 300% or something. And so you've got everybody like, decided because they could work from anywhere. We're all moving to this town and then other areas become depleted, maybe from people, and there's less resources available and harder to get providers to serve an area even though you have customers there. I just feel like we have a lot of geographic and economic challenges across states, even tiny states. It's been super interesting. We've found that work as we've been just doing plain old rate setting with states, so let alone what you guys are digging into. So what are some of the biggest challenges in implementing this value based purchasing?   Lisa: I would say the time it takes to do it right. I think sometimes state agencies and I'm not singling out VR, but they want quick solutions. You know, they think about it for a long time and then they say, okay, we want to do it. Let's get it done. Can we get this done in three months or can we, you know, and you have to say probably not in a way that would be successful. And so it is something not to take lightly and to really commit to invest in. I think there's a lot of additional benefits to doing this, including provider relationships and the learning that goes on. Providers now understand what it's like to step in the shoes of a funder. Funders understand what it's like to step in the shoes of a provider. I always think that helps with everybody getting on the same page and agreeing to a model they think will work, but it takes patience, it takes partnership. Some states are, they're very uncomfortable with bringing providers in. They tend to develop things and then release them to providers. So you've got to have a level of trust when you identify the providers you want to involve. I always encourage to identify who are your high performers. They are the providers you want this model to work for because you want more high performers and you want those that you have to expand their footprint, for example, to go into geographic areas that are underserved or to hire more staff. So always thinking about partnering with the high performing providers. But there's a bit of reluctance, you know, and risk in doing that and saying we're going to create something together. Lots of outside the box thinking. It's really hard to get away from payment models that you've been invested in for a long time. Milestone fee for service. Just to think beyond those can be very difficult, but I think once people start to and that's something I do, is kind of bring ideas and thoughts and stimulate thinking to get them to move away from those models and really say, what should we be paying for? What is important to value in the payment structure? I think it really gets to be very exciting, or at least I think so. You really need data to you cannot develop a model without good data. Sometimes the data is readily available. It's reports that VR agencies are already pulling out of their system. Other times the data's in the system, but they don't typically pull it. And so we have to work with them. And it helps to have a data analyst to assist with this process, to be able to pull pieces of data or data analysis and different ways that informs what we're doing. We want a data driven approach. And sometimes, of course, you probably know that data analysts are very, very busy or they're off doing something else. And it may be hard to get them committed to the work.   Carol: Have you seen improvements since? I'm just thinking since WIOA and kind of the requirements that RSA has put on state agencies about collecting a vast amount more of data. Have you seen improvement as you're working with states that they actually have data they may not have had years ago that you can get at. I mean, there might be a little bit of a problem with the staffing or getting your data analysts to pull it, but that availability of the data you need to really to dig into this, that it's actually there.   Lisa: Yeah, I do think the systems are pretty sophisticated, and it's a matter of helping them understand how to use more of the data they have, because we have the standard WIOA measures. We have the way that VR talked about its performance prior to WIOA but I think we're digging in to get it more data elements that help us understand. One of the most important things to understand is demographic information and how that affects maybe how difficult or how easy it is to serve someone. So, for example, adding criminal background to someone's demographic profile, or we know from history that, you know, that does create a challenge. So it's weeding out what are the things that differentiate people who VR would serve and try and understand better how that relates to cost. The other thing that's really important that I don't typically see is what's the average cost of a successful case? So I see this is the average cost of successful closures. So taking all successful closures and dividing it by the number and then average cost of unsuccessful closures, then average cost of a case. But for me what matters most is what are we paying for a successful case if we're including everything we're paying. So including all the that we're spending on unsuccessful closures in that and saying, basically this is what it costs to get a successful case, because we also have to pay for the unsuccessful closures and trying to focus on how do we reduce, how much we're paying for unsuccessful closures, and to really make sure more of the money that we're paying flows to successful closures. There's a little bit of complacency that goes on with every system where if we just compare ourselves to other states, we may say, look, we're doing better. We should be happy with our performance. We are better than 75% of the states. But if we stand back and compare that to people without disabilities and their participation in the workforce, I think that's when we say we're comparing it to school. Like if you got 60% on a test, would you pass it or would you fail it? So I think we have to challenge ourselves to say we may be doing better than so many other states, but we are not performing at a high level and we want to move up. We want to not just judge ourselves by other states. Now, 100% success is unrealistic. I don't think there's anybody who would disagree with that, but it's important for the providers and the funder to come together and say what kind of improvement above where we've been. Do we want to try to incentivize? Do we want to see and to develop the payment structure, to say we believe this structure will directly influence our ability to move those percentages up over time and thus reduce the amount we're investing in unsuccessful closures without reducing the number of people were serving, without cherry picking, but truly improving outcomes.   Carol: I love that that is a good way to challenge the thinking that's going on out there, because people sort of, I don't know, poo poo or they just this is over there in that bucket and they let it be. And we're kind of complacent with just, you know, we're doing better but is better. What's the next state like. You know, like better than what. And so what does that matter.   Chip: But I think I mean, the key to me is the concepts of quality, the quality of services and quality outcomes. And if you can define and you can measure and you can demonstrate quality of services and quality outcomes, it seems like you don't need to compare yourself with other states. You can say this is quality in our state. This is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it. These are the outcomes. So state by state national comparisons are way less important. So when we can get to that point where we can identify and measure and demonstrate and get quality outcomes that will move this whole system gigantic step forward.   Carol: 100% Chip. So what would be your best advice for states as they're listening. Right. You know, they're listening in and they're thinking, well, I want to do something, but I don't know what to do. Like what would be the next steps? What should they do?   Lisa: To me, it's, start the conversation. I find that the process of bringing state people together with providers, that they're all learning together about this different way of thinking, And it helps because it does take a little bit to get your mind around what Value-Based Purchasing is and how it's different from milestone payments or fee for service. And I've often seen like people have come up to me sometimes and said, you know, it was the third time I heard you talk that the bells finally went on, you know? And I said, that's fine. I think it's just the way it is. It's complicated in a way, because it's so different. So getting the conversation started and thinking about, you know, asking yourself questions like, is there quality in the outcomes that we want as an agency that we're not getting quality and service delivery? We don't feel we're getting quality and outcomes we're not getting. Then think about your payment structure and say, is there anything about our payment structure that incentivizes or rewards this kind of quality that we're saying we're not getting? Sometimes maybe there's something there. Sometimes you could say, no, there's absolutely nothing in the payment structure that does that. And then I always say, think about the providers that you think are doing the best work for you. Are they financially benefiting? Are they doing better financially. And in some cases I've seen no, there's no difference. I'm performing better, but financially that's not being recognized. And in other cases I've seen they're actually earning less because they're doing such a good job and they're very efficient. You know, they're producing quality with efficiency. They're actually doing more poorly financially than some of the providers who are performing at a lower level of quality. So I think when we start to think about those questions, people see that the need to try to figure out a different way to do things, then they're willing to, you know, let's talk about what this Value-Based Purchasing is what the principles are, how it's different, and begin to think about how we might bring our high performing providers into a conversation with us about this.   Chip: My advice for states is that you're in this for the long haul. To Lisa's point very early in this discussion that this isn't a quick solution. That's something that can just be laid in the state and just immediately adapted. It does take that level of discussion, that level of understanding, collecting data. It's complex. And sometimes I think to myself, why am I choosing to get involved in the complexity of Value-Based Purchasing overlaid the complexity sometimes of customized employment, but I think in the end result we will have a much better system, much more equitable service delivery system for everyone, including providers, including customers and job seekers. But just keeping the discussion going on things like this, things that CSAVR presentations Getting this into the national discussion, I think, is the first step.   Carol: Those are really good tips. Where outside of VR is Value-Based Purchasing being implemented?   Lisa: So definitely in the Medicaid world, most of your listeners are probably aware of that, but mostly in the Medicaid world, it's on the acute primary care side. So hospitals and doctors, primary care physicians and things. So I always caution people there's things we can learn from that and those examples. But it's not a wholesale import those approaches over to VR. I don't think that would work. But there are some principles or strategies that we can use, like there's a concept called shared savings. There's some other things that I think we can think about and use, but we still have to develop something that's specific to employment. In my work on this around employment on the Medicaid side has been with the long term services and support agencies, the DD agencies, the mental health agencies, managed care organizations who are doing LTSS and employment is a perfect place to start with them around their thinking, around Value-Based Purchasing. They're facing some pressure. I would say some to use Value-Based Purchasing because it's seen to be working on the acute primary side of Medicaid. So they're saying, why aren't we using it in LTSS? And they want better quality and better efficiency too. They want to see people supported to achieve their highest level of independence. They want their high performing providers to do well. So we worked on it with employment because it's so obvious that fee for service, which is the typical payment model, disincentivizes all the things that we associate with high quality supported employment, the better you are at getting people jobs, the better you are at coaching and fading because you're good at it. We reward providers under fee for service with less money. And those providers are performing more poorly, end up with more money. So it's not hard to get people to see why fee for service doesn't work for supported employment. So we've worked on models for job coaching that pay for hours worked rather than hours of coaching, so that providers are appropriately financially compensated if they do better at fading, which goes back to what kind of job did they get people, as well as how good they are at coaching. That model incentivizes them to get people more hours. So if you start with 12 hours a week, that doesn't mean you stay with it. If they're doing well, the employer wants to increase that. The person wants that they can get paid more in the model. Fee for service providers don't get any financial remuneration for increasing people's hours worked, even though we say that's a goal. So that's been a lot of where we see some of the value based models developing. We're paying for things up front services like exploration, which I'm really happy to see the results of states that have added exploration and exploration to their waivers, because we now have a way to tackle people who say no thanks in a planning meeting or I'm not interested, or their families say that we've been paying for developing payment models for that. That's an outcome payment. So they complete the service, then they get paid based on the quality of the information they submit and the efficiency. So there are ways to align what we're doing. Providers certainly appreciate that they would like to be paid the same way. Typically once they experience being paid in a Value-Based structure. So that's where it's happening. But think about just the general business world. There are so many examples of payment based on performance or quality, right. Sales Salespeople earn incentives for sales. So business has long been doing this in terms of creating those kinds of incentives and even nonprofits. Now, United Way and others are funding nonprofits based on outcomes and deliverables. They're no longer funding them to just provide service. So I think if you look, we're seeing it everywhere, really.   Carol: So you brought up a whole lot of points. If people are interested in more information, do you have resources we could send them to?   Lisa: Well, in 2021, I did a publication that looked at examples from around the country that I'd been in some way involved in. That's on the Lead Center website as well as there are a series of webinars we did at the time with representatives from various states. I have a lot of information about what's going on in the Medicaid side. Et etcetera. So I guess I would say that was my thinking in 2021, I continue to learn and evolve my thinking, and I think we're at a point now where we're trying to do in Virginia, is move beyond both fee for service and milestones, because neither are working very well, right? So you've got some state VR agency saying we're paying fee for service. It's not working. Should we move to milestone? But if you talk to states who are using milestone, they will also say it's not working very well. Some of them are thinking about going back to fee for service. And I'm thinking, I don't think we should do either. I think we should work together to figure out what's the next way we attempt this that addresses the shortcomings of both. And I think that pathway is Value-Based Purchasing.   Chip: and helping moving states to. Well, I'm a little concerned about the unknown. What we have may not be working now, but it's the known. I don't really know what's ahead, but I think where in Virginia at least, has done a really good job of creating that safe space. Like, let's explore this together and keep this comfort zone of what we currently have, but move forward into something that's more equitable and beneficial for them.   Carol: So, Chip, if people wanted to reach out, what would be the best thing? Should they contact you or what would be best?   Chip: Either one of us is if it's a state agency, probably me if it's others listening to this. Lisa.   Carol: Do you want to give them your email address?   Chip: It's r k e n n e y at SDSU (San Diego State University) dot EDU.   Carol: Awesome. And, Lisa, do you mind sharing your email address?   Lisa: No, but I'll warn you, it's long. So here we go, Lisa Mills l L i s a M i l l s, all one word, at M as in Michael, T as in Tom, D as in David, D as in David, dot On Microsoft, all one word, com. And that was my IT friends who gave me that ridiculously long email, which I hate.   Carol: Holy smokes, that is long. Well thank you both. I really appreciate it. And I will put a link in our podcast announcement out to your publication from 2021 as well. Then folks could at least see that. But thanks for your time. I really appreciate the conversation.   Lisa: Thank you.   Chip: Thanks. We really appreciate this opportunity.   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

  Get the best of both worlds! This episode of The Metaphysical Mysteries Podcast is in collaboration with another metaphysical-based podcast - We're All Psychic with hosts Lisa Rusczyk with Misty Lohr. In this episode, we jump into the topic of “We're all psychic”. Both Tom and Terry along with Lisa and Misty share their experiences with psychic phenomena, destiny, free will, and the life of a metaphysical podcaster.   About The We're All Psychic Podcast   We're All Psychic explores the theory that we all have these types of innate abilities... call them what you will. Lisa Rusczyk began the podcast in 2019 and was joined by Misty Lohr in the summer of 2019. Since then, they have interviewed dozens of individuals. All their guests have been psychic. We're All Psychic is sponsored by Everclear – an online platform that offers users advice from empaths and psychics. Get the clarity you need to create the life you deserve.   “I started this podcast to connect to people, and that's happened, is happening, and hopefully will continue to happen.” – Lisa   To become a guest on We're All Psychic, send an email to lisa@wereallpsychic.com or fill out the contact form here.   Lisa Rusczyk with Misty Lohr Mediumship and Psychic Advisor Services   Both Lisa Rusczyk with Misty Lohr offers advisor services for those who are interested in psychic guidance.   Lisa Rusczyk is an advisor on Everclear and also offers 30-minute psychic readings and 1-hour psychic readings. Lisa works with tarot, dreams, spirit guides (including Morgana, a cat spirit guide) and intuition/empathy, which will lead you to your best self/life. Lisa sometimes uses numerology, astrology and scrying to assist in her work.   Misy Lohr offers psychic medium readings for career, love life, and anything you want to know. Misty has developed her own intuitive skills over the years, especially while working as a cohost of the We're All Psychic Podcast. She has learned a “million” things from guests and discovered her love for divination. She can work with cards, pendulum or sans tools in order to help you figure out what you need to know in order to find life more fulfilling.   If you're interested in Lisa or Misty's medium services, you can order through the We're All Psychic website using the Ordering form. Lisa or Misty will contact you within 24 hours after you order to schedule.    Contact and Social Media   Website: https://www.wereallpsychic.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/psyreaderlisa Email: lisa@wereallpsychic.com   We're All Psychic Podcast Links   Listen on Anchor Listen on Spotify Listen on Apple Podcasts Listen on Amazon Music Listen On Audible   About The Metaphysical Mysteries   The Metaphysical Mysteries Podcast is the “go-to” place for everything metaphysical. We feature guests such as researchers, doctors, authors, scientists, and practitioners. Each episode also offers high-quality research about metaphysical topics. Interested in becoming a featured guest on The Metaphysical Mysteries Podcast? Register to become a guest here!  

Dans cet épisode, l'animatrice invitée Dominique Fortier, directrice principale des services aux clients chez PwC Canada, continue d'explorer le leadership féminin au sein de la fonction finance. L'épisode met en lumière Maarika Paul, première vice-présidente et cheffe des opérations et de la direction financière de la Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, ainsi que Lisa To, cheffe de gestion financière et performance du Groupe Finance de la Banque de développement du Canada (BDC), afin d'imaginer ce que l'avenir réserve aux futurs leaders en finances. Quels sont les acquis nécessaires? Quelles sont les transformations à prévoir? Comment s'y prendre pour pallier à la pénurie de talents? 00:00- Dominique présente les invitées Maarika Paul et Lisa To00:55- Maarika et Lisa parlent respectivement de leurs rôles à la CDPQ et à la BDC.02:38- Les invitées traitent des acquis nécessaires pour être un bon leader en finance et l'évolution de la fonction.05:45- Maarika et Lisa proposent de rendre la fonction Finance indispensable aux processus décisionnels des hauts dirigeants d'affaires. 08:45- Maarika et Lisa expliquent de quelle manière les chefs des finances devraient gérer la pénurie de talents actuelle.11:59- Maarika décrit les deux types de leaders du futur. 13 :40- Dominique pose quelques questions en rafale afin de mieux connaître les deux invitées.

What You'll Hear In This Episode:Tara describes her breakthrough call with Lisa and what made her ultimately commit to the course.Tara had never had a serious relationship before and was wondering if she would be alone forever. The pandemic gave her a break to pause and ponder why she was choosing to stay single.What did Roy first think of Tara's profile (written by Benjamin!), and how did it draw him in? Tara and Roy talk about their relationship dynamic and how they communicate with one another. What are some of the old dating patterns Tara worked through while on her journey with Roy?Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With LisaEmail the podcast at: podcast@lisashield.comMentioned: OkCupid Quotes“She really is like my best friend and my companion. I'm never too busy because she's my priority.” - Roy“Don't keep secrets. Just be honest with each other.” - Tara “People need each other and we're designed to be with people. It's real, and you can find it too.” - Tara “A real man wants a real woman who knows how to make him feel like a man.” - Lisa This is a two-way street. A man needs to get his needs met just as much as we need to get our needs met, they may be different, but you have to know how to give him the things that he really needs.” - Lisa “To me, she's perfect.” - Roy “I'm going to make her happy. She's on my side.” - Roy “It is the best investment I've ever made in my life.” - Tara

How do you handle stressful situations? Everyone's built a little different — some people can take their hits on the chin and come out smiling. But not everyone can take those hits. The pandemic has taken its mental toll on so many people. Others might still be struggling with past traumas and dealing with anxiety. Their situation keeps them in a state of constant worry and hypervigilance. That state of mind doesn't only harm their mental and emotional health — it can make them sick and more prone to physical diseases. More than ever, it's time to begin mental healing from past traumas, so we can better cope with our daily stresses.  Dr Don Wood joins us again in this episode to talk about the TIPP program and how it facilitates mental healing. He explains how our minds are affected by traumas and how these can affect our health and performance. If we want to become more relaxed, we need to learn how to go into the alpha brainwave state. Since mental healing is not an immediate process, Dr Don also shares some coping strategies we can use in our daily lives.  If you want to know more about how neuroscience can help you achieve mental healing, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how trauma can put you in a constant state of survival and affect your performance and daily life.  Understand that it's not your fault. Achieving mental healing will require you to learn how to go into an alpha brainwave state.  Discover healthy habits that will keep you from entering survival mode.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes:  #183: Sirtuin and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova  #199: How Unresolved Trauma Prevents You from Having a Healthy Life With Dr Don Wood Check out Dr Don Wood's books:  Emotional Concussions: Understanding How Our Nervous System is Affected By Events and Experiences Throughout Our Life You Must Be Out Of Your Mind: We All Need A Reboot   Connect with Dr Don Wood: Inspired Performance Institute I Facebook I LinkedIn     Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful third party-tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [06:05] The Pandemic-Induced Mental Health Crisis The pandemic forced many people into a state of freeze mode, not the typical fight or flight response.  As people get out of freeze mode, there will be a rise in mental health issues.  Teenagers are robbed of the opportunity to develop social and communication skills during this time.  [08:24] How Dr Don Wood Started Studying Traumas Dr Don's wife grew up in a household with an angry father who instilled fear. He used to think that she would be less anxious when they started to live together, but she struggled with mental healing.  She had an inherent belief that misfortune always follows good things. Her traumas and fears also led to a lot of health issues.  She also was hyper-vigilant, which she used as a protective mechanism. However, this prevented her from being relaxed and happy. A person's environment can dictate whether they go into this hyper-vigilant state, but genetics can also play a factor.  [15:42] How Trauma Affects the Brain Trauma is caused by a dysregulation of the subconscious. If your brain is in survival mode, it will access data from the past and create physiological responses to them. These emotions demand action, even when it is no longer possible or necessary. This dysregulation prevents you from living in the present and initiating mental healing.  In this state, people can be triggered constantly, which interferes with their day-to-day life.  [21:07] The Role of the Subconscious Your conscious mind only takes up around 5%, while the subconscious takes up 95%. Your subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real and imagined.  In survival mode, people will keep replaying the past and think about different scenarios and decisions.  You're left stuck because the subconscious mind only lives in the now. It does not have a concept of time.  This process is the brain trying to protect you. [25:04] What Happens When You're Always in Survival Mode Being in survival mode will take a physical toll since it's constantly activating the nervous system, increasing cortisol and adrenaline. When you're in this state, your body and mind cannot work on maintenance and recovery. It is more focused on escaping or fixing perceived threats. Over time, this will affect your immune system and make you sick.  To truly achieve mental healing, you need to get to the root cause of your problems.  However, you also have to develop coping strategies to manage your day-to-day activities.  [30:18] Changing Your Brainwave State Traumatic events are usually stored in a beta brainwave state. Changing your response to traumatic events starts with going into an alpha brainwave state.  The beta state is usually from 15 - 30 hertz, while the alpha is lower at 7 - 14 hertz. Anything below that is the delta state, usually when you're in deep meditation or sleep. People who have trouble sleeping are usually in that beta state, which keeps processing information.  It's only in the delta state that your mind and body start the maintenance phase. This phase helps not only with mental healing but also physical recovery.  Learn more about Lisa and Dr Don's personal experiences with these brainwave states in the full episode!  [34:30] Mental Healing and Physical Recovery Starts with the Brain Recovery is about genetics and the environment. In sleep, your mind will always want to deal with the threats first. It can only get to the delta state once it finishes processing these dangers. Your risk for developing sickness and depression rises if your brain can't do maintenance. Living in the beta state will make it difficult to focus.  [41:40] It's Not Your Fault If you have a lot of trauma, you are predisposed to respond in a certain way. It's not your fault.  There's nothing wrong with your mind; you just experienced different things from others.  Dr Don likened this situation to two phones having a different number of applications running.  Predictably, the device that runs more applications will have its battery drained faster.  [44:05] Change How You Respond Working on traumas requires changing the associative and repetitive memory, which repeats responses to threats. You cannot change a pattern and get mental healing immediately—it will take time.  That's the reason why Dr Don's program has a 30-day recovery phase dedicated to changing your response pattern.  Patterns form because the subconscious mind sees them as a beneficial way of coping with traumas.  This function of your subconscious is how addictions form.  [47:04] Why We Can Be Irrational The subconscious lives only in the present. It does not see the future nor the past.  It will want to take actions that will stop the pain, even if the actions are not rational.  At its core, addiction is all about trying to stop the pain or other traumatic experiences.  Survival mode always overrides reason and logic because its priority is to protect you. [50:57] What to Do When You're in Survival State In this survival state, we're prone to movement or shutting down completely.  The brain can stop calling for emotions to protect you, and this is how depression develops.  When in a depressed state, start moving to initiate mental healing. Exercise helps burn through cortisol and adrenaline.  Once your mind realises there's no action required for the perceived threats, the depression will lift.   [53:24] Simple Actions Can Help There's nothing wrong with you.  Don't just treat the symptom; go straight to the issue.  Don't blame genetics or hormonal imbalances for finding it hard to get mental healing. Find out why.  Also, seek things that will balance out your hormones. These can be as simple as walking in nature, taking a break, and self-care.  [56:04] How to Find a Calming Symbol Find a symbol that will help you go back into the alpha brainwave state.  Lisa shares that her symbol is the sunset or sunrise, and this helps her calm down. Meanwhile, Dr Don's are his home and the hawk.  Having a symbol communicates to all parts of your brain that you're safe.  [59:58] The Power of Breathing  Stress may lead to irregular breathing patterns and increase your cortisol levels and blood sugar. Breathing exercises, like box breathing, can also help you calm down because the brain will take higher oxygen levels as a state of safety.  If you're running out of oxygen, your brain will think you're still in danger.  Make sure that you're breathing well. It's also better to do nasal breathing.    7 Powerful Quotes ‘The purpose of an emotion is a call for an action. So the purpose of fear is to run.' ‘People who have a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. Because not only is their mind processing what it experienced during the day, it's also taking some of those old files saying “Well, okay, let's fix that now. Right. Let's get that.”' ‘I was getting maximum restorative sleep. So an injury that I would have that could heal in two or three days, my teammates would two or three weeks. Because they were living in these, which I didn't know, a lot of my friends were dealing with trauma: physical, emotional, sexual abuse.' ‘There's nothing wrong with anybody's mind. Everybody's mind is fine except you are experiencing something different than I experienced so your mind kept responding to it, and mine didn't have that.' ‘That dysregulation of the nervous system. That's what we want to stop because that is what is going to affect health, enjoyment of life, and everything else.' ‘I talked about addiction as a code. I don't believe it's a disease. Your mind has found a resource to stop pains and your subconscious mind is literal. It doesn't see things as good or bad, or right or wrong.' ‘If there's a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic because it's designed to protect you.'   About Dr Don Dr Don Wood, PhD, is the CEO of The Inspired Performance Institute. Fueled by his family's experiences, he developed the cutting-edge neuroscience approach, TIPP. The program has produced impressive results and benefited individuals all over the world.  Dr Wood has helped trauma survivors achieve mental healing from the Boston Marathon bombing attack and the Las Vegas shooting. He has also helped highly successful executives and world-class athletes. Marko Cheseto, a double amputee marathon runner, broke the world record after completing TIPP. Meanwhile, Chris Nikic worked with Dr Wood and made world news by becoming the first person with Down Syndrome to finish an Ironman competition. Interested in Dr Don's work? Check out The Inspired Performance Institute. You can also reach him on Facebook and LinkedIn.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn steps to mental healing. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Transcript Of Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have Dr Don Wood who, you may recognise that name if you listen to the podcast regularly. He was on the show maybe a couple of months ago, and he is the CEO and founder of The Inspired Performance Institute. He's a neuroscience guy, and he knows everything there is to know about dealing with trauma and how to get the mind back on track when you've been through big, horrible life events or some such thing. Now, when we talked last time, he shared with me his methodology, the work that he's done, how he can help people with things like addictions as well and depression, and just dealing with the stresses of life, whether they be small stressors or big stressors.  We got to talking about my situation and the stuff that I've been through in the last few years, which many of you listeners know, has been pretty traumatic. From losing babies, to losing my dad, to mom's journey. So I was very privileged and lucky to have Dr Don Wood actually invite me to do his program with him. We share today my stories, how I went with that, and he explains a little bit more in-depth the neuroscience behind it all and how it all works. So if you're someone who's dealing with stress, anxiety, PTSD, depression, if you want to understand how the brain works and how you can help yourself to deal with these sorts of things, then you must listen to the show. He's an absolutely lovely, wonderful person.  Now, before we get over to the show, I just love you all to do a couple of things for me. If you wouldn't mind doing a rating and review of the show on Apple, iTunes or wherever you listen to this, that would be fantastic. It helps the show get found. We also have a patron program, just a reminder if you want to check that out. Come and join the mission that we're on to bring this wonderful information to reach to people.  Also, we have our BOOSTCAMP program starting on the first of September 2021. If you listen to this later, we will be holding these on a regular basis so make sure you check it out. This is an eight-week live webinar series that my business partner, my best buddy, and longtime coach Neil Wagstaff and I will be running. It's more about upgrading your life and helping you perform better, helping you be your best that you can be, helping you understand your own biology, your own neuroscience, how your brain works, how your biology works. Lots of good information that's going to help you upgrade your life, live longer, be happier, reduce stress, and be able to deal with things when life is stressful. God knows we're all dealing with that. So I'd love you to come and check that out. You can go to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  I also want to remind you to check us out on Instagram. I'm quite active on Instagram. I have a couple of accounts there. We have one for the podcast that we've just started. We need a few more followers please on there. Go to @pushingthelimits for that one on Instagram, and then my main account is @lisatamati, if you want to check that one out. If you are a running fan, check us out on Instagram @runninghotcoaching and we're on Facebook under all of those as well. So @lisatamati, @pushingthelimits, and @runninghotcoaching.  The last thing before we go over to Dr Don Wood, reminder check out, too, our longevity and anti-aging supplement. We've joined forces with Dr Elena Seranova and have NMN which is nicotinamide mononucleotide, and this is really some of that cooler stuff in the anti-aging, and longevity space. If you want to check out the science behind that, we have a couple of podcasts with her. Check those out and also head on over to nmnbio.nz. Right. Over to the show with Dr Don Wood.  Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have a dear, dear friend again who's back on the show as a repeat offender, Dr Don Wood. Dr Don Wood: I didn't know I was a repeat offender. Oh, I'm in trouble. That's great.  Lisa: Repeat offender on the show. Dr Don, for those who don't know, was on the show. Dr Don is a trauma expert and a neuroscientist, and someone who understands how the brain works, and why we struggle with anxiety, and depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder. We did a deep dive last time, didn't we, into the program that you've developed. Since then, everyone, I have been through Dr Don's pro program. He kindly took me through it. Today, I want to unpack a little bit of my experiences on the other side, s the client, so to speak. Talk about what I went through.  Dr Don, so firstly, welcome to the show again. How's it all over in your neck of the woods? Dr Don: Well, it's awesome over here in Florida. COVID is basically non-existent. Oh, yeah. Well, in terms of the way people are treating it, that's for sure. Very few people you see in masks now, everything is pretty much wide open. You can't even get reservations at restaurants. It's unbelievable. The economy is exploding here. There's so much going on. Yeah, I know the rest of the country, a lot of different places are still struggling with whether they're going to put mask mandates back on and all this kind of stuff but Florida seems to be doing very well.  Lisa: Well, I'm very glad to hear that because any bit of good news in this scenario is good because this keeps coming and biting everybody in the bum.  Dr Don: I know. Especially down there. You guys are really experiencing quite severe lockdowns and things, right? Lisa: Yeah and Australia, more so. Australia has gone back into lockdown. I've got cousins in Sydney who are experiencing really hard times in Melbourne and we've stopped the trans-Tasman bubble at the moment. Trans-Tasman was open for business, so to speak, with Australians being able to come to New Zealand without quarantine, but it's been shut down again. So yeah, we're still struggling with it, and the economy is still struggling with it but actually, in our country, we've been very lucky that we've managed to keep it out because they've had such tight controls on the borders. But yes, it's a rocky road for everybody, and it's not over yet, I think. Dr Don: Looks like it's going to continue, and that's creating a lot of stress.  Lisa: Oh, yeah, perfect.  Dr Don: This is what I've said. I think we're coming up to a tsunami of mental health issues because a lot of people have gone into freeze mode as opposed to fight or flight. Some people are in fight or flight. You're hearing about that on airlines: people just losing it, and getting mad, and fighting with flight attendants and passengers, and you see a lot of that. But I think that's obviously not the majority. I think most people are in that mode of just get through this, do what they ask, don't cause any waves, and just get this over with. So that's a freeze mode, and I think when people come out of freeze, you're going to start to see some of these mental health issues.  Lisa: Yes, I totally agree and I'm very concerned about the young people. I think that being hit very hard especially in the places that have the hardest lockdowns. If you're going through puberty, or you're going through teenagehood, or even the younger kids, I think, they're going to be affected massively by this because it's going to be a big before and after sort of situation for them.  Dr Don: And just the social. When we were teenagers, social was everything, I suppose. Learning how to communicate, and talk, and get along with other people, and good and bad. There were always struggles in school with learning how to get along with everybody but that is just sort of squashed. It's going to be fascinating to see when they do a study on the real true results of this pandemic. It's going to be a lot different than many people think.  Lisa: Yes, and I think the longer you ignore stuff, is we're going to see it's not just the people are unfortunately dying and being very sick from the actual COVID, but the actual effects on society are going to be big. That's why talking about the topic that we're talking about today, dealing with anxiety, and dealing with stress, and being able to actually fix the problem instead of just managing the problem, which I know you're big on.  So let's dive in there, and let's recap a little bit. Just briefly go back over your story, how you got to here, and what your method sort of entails in a helicopter perspective. Dr Don: Yeah, basically how I developed this was really because of the life that my wife led first and my daughter. My wife grew up in a very traumatic household with a very angry father that created tremendous fear. So everybody was... Just constant tension in that household. When I met her, I just realised how this was so different than my life. My life was in the complete opposite: very nurturing, loving. So I didn't experience that. I thought when she started moving in and we got married at 19, we were very young, that this would all stop for her. Because now, she's living in my world, my environment, and it didn't.  She just kept continuing to feel this fear that something was going to go wrong and nothing is going to go right. She struggled with enjoying things that were going well. I would say to her, 'We've got three beautiful children. We've got a beautiful home. Everything's going pretty good; nothing's perfect. You have your ups and downs, but it's generally a pretty good life.' She couldn't enjoy that because as a child, whenever things were going okay, it would quickly end and it would end, sometimes violently. So the way she was protecting herself is don't get too excited when things are going well because you'll get this huge drop. So that was what she was doing to protect herself. I just had a lady come in here a couple months ago, who very famous athlete is her husband: millionaires, got fame, fortune, everything you want, but she had a lot of health issues because of trauma from her childhood. When I explained that to her, she said, 'That's me. Your wife is me. I should be enjoying this, and I can't get there. I want to. My husband can't understand it.' But that's really what was going on for her too. Lisa: So it's a protective mechanism, isn't it? To basically not get too relaxed and happy because you've got to be hyper-vigilant, and this is something that I've definitely struggled with my entire life. Not because I had a horrible childhood. I had a wonderful childhood but I was super sensitive. So from a genetic perspective, I'm super sensitive. I have a lot of adrenaline that makes me code for, for want of a better description, I'm very emotionally empathetic but it also makes me swung by emotional stimuli very much. So someone in my environment is unhappy, I am unhappy. I'm often anxious and upset. My mum telling me she took me to Bambi. You know the movie Bambi? From Disneyland? She had to take me out of theatre. I was in distraught.  That's basically me. Because Bambi's mother got killed, right? I couldn't handle that as a four-year-old, and I still can't handle things. Things like the news and stuff, I protect myself from that because I take everything on. It's even a problem and in our business service situations because I want to save the world. I very much take on my clients' issues. I'm still learning to shut gates afterwards, so to speak, when you're done working with someone so that you're not constantly... So there's a genetic component to this as well.  Dr Don: Absolutely. So yours was coming from a genetic side but that's very, very common amongst people who have had a traumatic childhood. They're super sensitive.  Lisa: Yes. Hyper-vigilant.  Dr Don: Hyper-vigilant. That was my wife. She was constantly looking for danger. We'd come out of the storage and go: 'Can you believe how rude that clerk was?' 'What do you mean she was rude? How was she rude?' ‘You see the way she answered that question when I asked that, and then the way she stuffed the clothes in the bag?' And I'm like, 'Wow.' I never saw her like that. She was looking for it because that's how she protected herself because she had to recognise when danger was coming. So it was protection, and I hadn't experienced that so that made no sense to me; it made perfect sense to her.  Lisa: Yeah, and if someone was rude to you, you would be just like, 'Well, that's their problem, not my problem, and I'm not taking it on.' Whereas for someone your wife and for me... I did have a dad who was  a real hard, tough man, like old-school tough. We were very much on tenterhooks so when they came home, whether he was in a good mood today or not in a good mood. He was a wonderful, loving father but there was that tension of wanting to please dad. Mum was very calm and stable, but Dad was sort of more volatile and just up and down. It was wonderful and fun and other times, you'd be gauging all of that before he even walked in the door. That just makes you very much hyper-vigilant to everything as well.  Then, you put on, on top of that, the genetic component. You've got things like your serotonin and your adrenaline. So I've got the problem with the adrenaline and a lack of dopamine. So I don't have dopamine receptors that stops me feeling satisfaction and... Well, not stops me but it limits my feeling of, 'Oh, I've done a good job today. I can relax.' Or of reward. And other people have problems, I don't have this one, but with a serotonin gene, which is they have dysregulation of their serotonin and that calm, and that sense of well-being and mood regulation is also up and down. While it's not a predisposition that you'll definitely going to have troubles because you can learn the tools to manage those neurotransmitters and things like nutrition and gut health and all that aspect. Because it's all a piece of that puzzle, but it's really just interesting, and it makes you much more understanding of people's differences.  Why does one person get completely overwhelmed in a very trivial situation versus someone else who could go into war and come back and they're fine? What is it that makes one person? Then you got the whole actual neuroscience circuitry stuff, which I find fascinating, what you do. Can you explain a little bit what goes on? Say let's just pick a traumatic experience: Someone's gone through some big major trauma. What is actually going on in the brain again? Can we explain this a little bit?  Dr Don: Yeah, this is one of the things that... When I did my research, I realised this is what's causing the dysregulation: is your subconscious your survival brain is fully present in the moment all the time. So everything in that part of our brain is operating in the present. which is what is supposed to be, right? They say that that's the key, that success and happiness is live in the present. Well, your survival brain does that. The problem comes in is that only humans store explicit details about events and experiences. So everything you've seen, heard, smelled, and touched in your lifetime has been recorded and stored in this tremendous memory system. Explicit memory.  Animals have procedural memory or associative memory. We have that memory system too. So we have both. They only have procedural, associative. So they learn through repetition, and they learn to associate you with safety and love, but they don't store the details about it. But we store all the details about these events and experiences. So this is where this glitch is coming in. If you've got the survival brain, which is 95% of everything that's going on, operating in the present, accessing data from something that happened 10 years ago because something looks like, sounds like, smells like it again, it's creating a response to something that's not happening. It's looking at old data and creating a physiological response to it, and the purpose of an emotion is a call for an action. So the purpose of fear is to run, to escape a threat. But there's no threat. It's just information about the threat. That disrupts your nervous system and then that creates a cascade of chemical reactions in your body because your mind thinks there's an action required. Lisa: This is at the crux of the whole system really, isn't it? This is this call for action to fix a problem that is in the past that cannot be fixed in the now. So if we can dive a little bit into my story, and I'm quite open on the show. I'm sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly. When I was working with Dr Don, I've been through a very, very traumatic few years really. Lost my dad, first and foremost, last July, which was the biggest trauma of my life. And it was a very difficult process that we went through before he died as well. And there's a lift, as you can imagine, my brain in a state of every night nightmares, fighting for his life, he's dying over, and over, and over, and over again.  Those memories are intruding into my daily life, whereas in anything and at any time, I could be triggered and be in a bawling state in the middle of the car park or the supermarket. Because something's triggered me that Dad liked to to buy or Dad, whatever the case was, and this was becoming... It's now a year after the event but everything was triggering me constantly. Of course, this is draining the life out of you and interfering with your ability to give focus to your business, to your family, to your friends, every other part of your life. I'd also been through the trauma of bringing Mum back from that mess of aneurysm that everyone knows about. The constant vigilance that is associated with bringing someone back and who is that far gone to where she is now, and the constant fear of her slipping backwards, and me missing something, especially in light of what I'd been through with my father. So I'd missed some things, obviously. That's why he ended up in that position and through his own choices as well.  But this load, and then losing a baby as well in the middle, baby Joseph. There was just a hell of a lot to deal with in the last five years. Then, put on top of it, this genetic combination of a hot mess you got sitting before you and you've got a whole lot of trauma to get through. So when we did the process, and I was very, super excited to do this process because it was so intrusive into my life, and I realised that I was slowly killing myself because I wasn't able to stop that process from taking over my life. I could function. I was highly functional. No one would know in a daily setting, but only because I've got enough tools to keep my shit together. so to speak. But behind closed doors, there's a lot of trauma going on.  So can you sort of, just in a high level, we don't want to go into the details. This is a four-hour program that I went through with Dr Don. What was going on there. and what did you actually help me with?  Dr Don: So when you're describing those things that were happening to you, what was actually happening to your mind is it was not okay with any of that. It wanted it to be different, right? So it was trying to get you into a state of action to stop your father from dying: Do it differently. Because it kept reviewing the data. It was almost looking at game tape from a game and saying 'Oh, had we maybe run the play that way, we would have avoided the tackle here.' So what your mind was saying 'Okay, run that way.' Well, you can't run that way. This is game tape. Right? But your mind doesn't see it as game tape. It sees it as real now, so it's run that way. So it keeps calling you into an action.  And especially with your dad because you were thinking about, 'Why didn't I do this?' Or 'Had I just done this, maybe this would have happened.' What your mind was saying is, 'Okay, let's do it. Let's do that.' What you just thought about. But you can't do that. It doesn't exist. It's information about something that happened but your mind sees it as real. That's why Hollywood have made trillions of dollars because they can convince you something on the screen is actually happening. That's why we cry in a movie or that's why we get scared in a movie. Because your mind, your subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real or imagined. So that's actually happening.  You were just talking about the movie with Bambi, right? When you were little. 'Why is nobody stopping this from happening?' So your mind was not okay with a lot of these things that were happening, and it kept calling you to make a difference. That's what I never understood my wife doing. That before I really researched this, my wife would always be saying, 'Don't you wish this hadn't have happened?' Or 'Don't you wish we hadn't done this?' What I didn't understand at the time, because I used to just get like, 'Okay, whatever.' She'd go, 'Yeah, but wouldn't it have been better?' She wanted to get me into this play with her, this exercise. Lisa: This is going on in her head. Dr Don: Because it's going on in her head, and she's trying to feel better. So she's creating these scenarios that would make her feel like, 'Well, if I had just done that, gosh that would have been nice, thinking about that life.' And her mind seeing that going, 'Oh, that would be nice. Well, let's do that. Yes.' So she was what if-ing her life. And it was something that she did very early as a child because that's how she just experienced something traumatic with her father. In her mind, she'd be going, 'Well, what if I had to just left 10 minutes earlier, and I had have escaped that?' Or 'What if I hadn't done this?' So that's what she was doing. It made no sense to me because I hadn't experienced her life, but that's what she was doing. Her mind was trying to fix something. It's never tried to hurt you. It was never, at any point, trying to make you feel bad. It was trying to protect you. Lisa: Its job is to protect you from danger and it sees everything as you sit in the now so it's happening now. I love that analogy of these... What was it? Two-thirds of the car or something and... Dr Don: So goat and snowflake? Lisa: Goat and snowflake. And they're going off to a meeting and they're late. And what does the goat says to snowflake or the other way around? Dr Don: So snowflake, which is your conscious mind, your logical reasonable part of your mind, there's only 5, says the goat 95%, which is your subconscious mind. Who runs into a traffic jam says, 'Oh, we're going to be late. We should have left 15 minutes earlier.' To which goat replies 'Okay, let's do it. Let's leave 15 minutes earlier because that would solve the problem.'  Lisa: That analogy is stuck in my head because you just cannot... It doesn't know that it's too late and you can't hop into the past because it only lives in the now. This is 95% of how our brain operates. That's why we can do things like, I was walking, I was at a strategy meeting in Auckland with my business partner two days ago. We were walking along the road and he suddenly tripped and fell onto the road, right? My subconscious reacted so fast, I grabbed him right, and punched him in the guts. I didn't mean to do that but my subconscious recognised in a millimeter of a second, millionth of a second, that he was falling and I had to stop him. So this is a good side of the survival network: stopping and falling into the traffic or onto the ground.  But the downside of it is that brain is operating only in the now and it can't... Like with my father, it was going 'Save him. Save him. Save him. Why are you not saving him?' Then that's calling for an action, and then my body is agitated. The cortisol level's up. The adrenaline is up, and I'm trying to do something that's impossible to fix. That can drive you to absolute insanity when that's happening every hour, every day. Dr Don: Then that's taking a physical toll on your body because it's activating your nervous system, which is now, the cortisol levels are going up, adrenaline, right? So when your mind is in that constant state, it does very little on maintenance. It is not worried about fixing anything; it's worried about escaping or fixing the threat, because that's the number one priority.  Lisa: It doesn't know that it's not happening. I ended up with shingles for two months. I've only just gotten over it a few weeks ago. That's a definite sign of my body's, my immune system is down. Why is it down? Why can that virus that's been sitting dormant in my body for 40-something years suddenly decide now to come out? Because it's just becoming too much. I've spent too long in the fight or flight state and then your immune system is down. This is how we end up really ill.  Dr Don: We get sick. I was just actually having lunch today with a young lady and she's got some immune system issues. And I said, 'Think about it like the US Army, US military is the biggest, strongest military in the world. But if you took that military and you spread it out amongst 50 countries around the world fighting battles, and then somebody attacks the United States, I don't care how big and strong that system was, that military system was. It's going to be weakened when it gets an attack at the homefront.' So that's what was happening. So all of a sudden, now that virus that it could fight and keep dormant, it lets it pass by because it's like, 'Well, we can let that go. We'll catch that later. Right now, we got to go on the offensive and attack something else.' Lisa: Yeah, and this is where autoimmune, like your daughter experienced... Dr Don: About the Crohn's? Yep.  Lisa: Yep. She experienced that at 13 or something ridiculous? Dr Don: 14, she got it. Then she also got idiopathic pulmonary hemosiderosis which is another lung autoimmune disorder where the iron in the blood would just cause the lungs to release the blood. So her lungs just starts filling up with blood. They had no idea what caused it, that's the idiopathic part of it, and they just basically said, ‘There's no cure. She just needs to live close to a hospital because she'll bleed out if she has another attack.' Only 1 in 1.2 million people ever get that. So it's very rare so there's no research being done for it. They just basically say, ‘If you get it, live close to a hospital.' That's the strategy. Lisa: That's the way of fixing it.  Dr Don: And so both of those are autoimmune, and ever since we've gone to the program, she's hasn't had a flare-up of either one of those. Because I think our system is directly now able to address those things.  Lisa: Yeah, and can calm down. I think even people who haven't got post-traumatic stress like I've had or whatever, they've still got the day to day grind of life, and the struggle with finances, and the mortgage to be paid, and the kids to feed, and whatever dramas we're all going through. Like we talked about with COVID and this constant change that society is undergoing, and that's going to get faster and more. So this is something that we all need to be wary of: That we're not in this. I've taught and learned a lot about the coping and managing strategies, the breathing techniques, and meditation, the things, and that's what's kept me, probably, going. Dr Don: Those are great because they're... Again, that's managing it but it's good to have that because you've got to get to the root of it, which is what we were working on. But at the same time, if you don't have any coping, managing skills, life gets very difficult. Lisa: Yeah, and this is in-the-moment, everyday things that I can do to help manage the stress levels, and this is definitely something you want to talk about as well. So with me, we went through this process, and we did... For starters, you had to get my brain into a relaxed state, and it took quite a long time to get my brainwaves into a different place. So what were we doing there? How does that work with the brainwave stuff?  Dr Don: Well, when we have a traumatic event or memory, that has been stored in a very high-resolution state. So in a beta brainwave state because all your senses are heightened: sight, smell, hearing. So it's recording that and storing it in memory in a very intense state. So if I sat down with you and said, 'Okay, let's get this fixed.' And I just started trying to work directly on that memory, you're still going to be in a very high agitated state because we're going to be starting to talk about this memory. So you're going to be in a beta brainwave state trying to recalibrate a beta stored memory. That's going to be very difficult to do.  So what we do is, and that's why I use the four hours because within that first an hour and a half to two hours, we're basically communicating with the subconscious part of the brain by telling stories, symbols with metaphors, goat and snowflake, all the stories, all the metaphors that are built-in because then your brain moves into an alpha state. When it's in alpha, that's where it does restoration. So it's very prepared to start restoring. And then, if you remember, by the time we got to a couple of the traumatic memories, we only work on them for two or three minutes. Because you're in alpha, and so you've got this higher state of beta, and it recalibrates it into the same state that it's in. So if it's in alpha, it can take a beta memory, reprocess it in alpha, takes all the intensity out of it.  Lisa: So these brain waves, these beta states, just to briefly let people know, so this is speed, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the speed at which the brain waves are coming out. So in beta, like you'd see on ECG or something, it's sort of really fast. I think there's a 40 day... Dr Don: It's 15 to 30 hertz. Lisa: 15 to 30 hertz and then if you're in alpha, it's a lot lower than that? Dr Don: 7 to 14. Lisa: 7 to 14, and then below that is sort of when you're going into the sleep phase, either deep meditative or asleep. Dr Don: You're dreaming. Because what it's doing in dreaming is processing. So you're between 4 and 7 hertz. That's why people who have a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. Because not only is their mind processing what it experienced during the day, it's also taking some of those old files saying, 'Well, okay, let's fix that now. Right. Let's get that.' That's where your nightmares are coming from. It was trying to get you into a processing to fix that. but it couldn't fix it. So it continues, and then when you go below 4 hertz, you go into delta. Delta is dreamless sleep and that's where the maintenance is getting done.  Lisa: That's the physical maintenance side more than the... Dr Don: Physical maintenance. Yeah, because that's not processing what it experienced anymore. What it's really now doing is saying, 'Okay, what are the issues that need to be dealt with?' So if you're very relaxed and you've had a very... Like me, right? I played hockey, so I had six concussions, 60 stitches, and never missed a hockey game. The only reason now that I understand I could do that is because I'm getting two or three times more Delta sleep than my teammates were. Lisa: Physical recuperative sleep.  Dr Don: Yeah, I was getting maximum restorative sleep. So an injury that I would have that could heal in two or three days, my teammates would two or three weeks. Because they were living in these, which I didn't know, a lot of my friends were dealing with trauma: physical, emotional, sexual abuse. I didn't know that was going on with my friends. Nobody talked about it. I didn't see it in their homes, but they were all dealing with that.  Lisa: So they are not able to get... So look, I've noticed since I've been through the program. My sleep is much better, and sometimes I still occasionally dream about Dad. But the positive dreams, if that makes sense. They're more Dad as he as he was in life and I actually think Dad's come to visit me and say, ‘Hi, give me a hug' rather than the traumatic last days and hours of his life, which was the ones that were coming in before and calling for that action and stopping me from having that restorative sleep.  I just did a podcast with Dr Kirk Parsley who's a sleep expert, ex-Navy SEAL and a sleep expert that's coming out shortly. Or I think by this time, it will be out, and understanding the importance, the super importance of both the delta and... What is the other one? The theta wave of sleep patterns, and what they do, and why you need both, and what parts of night do what, and just realising...Crikey, anybody who is going through trauma isn't experiencing sleep is actually this vicious cycle downwards. Because then, you've got more of the beta brainwave state, and you've got more of the stresses, and you're much less resilient when you can't sleep. You're going to... have health issues, and brain issues, and memory, and everything's going to go down south, basically.  Dr Don: That's why I didn't understand at the time. They just said 'Well, you're just super healthy. You heal really fast.' They had no other explanation for it. Now, I know exactly why. But it had nothing to do with my genetics. It had to do with my environment. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on here. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way but to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com.  We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.  Dr Don: That's, at the time, we just thought it was all, must have been genetics. But I realised now that it was environment as well. So maybe a genetic component to it as well, but then you take that and put that into this very beautiful, nurturing environment, I'm going to sleep processing in beta what I experienced that day and then my mind basically, at that point, is 'What do we need to work on? Not much. Let's go. Let's start now doing some maintenance.' Because it wants to address the top of item stuff first. What is it needs to be taken care of right now? Right? Those are the threats.  Once it gets the threats processed, then it can then start working on the things that are going to be the more long-term maintenance. So then it'll do that. But if it never gets out of that threat mode, it gets out for very little time. Then, if you're getting 30 minutes of delta sleep at night and I'm getting two hours, it's a no-brainer to figure out why I would heal faster.  Lisa: Absolutely, and this is independent of age and things because you've got all that that comes into it as well. Your whole chemistry changes as you get older and all this. There's other compounding issues as it gets more and more important that you get these pieces of the puzzle right.  Do you think that this is what leads to a lot of disease, cancers, and things like that as well? There's probably not one reason. There's a multitude of reasons, but it's definitely one that we can influence. So it's worth looking at it if you've got trauma in your life. People were saying to me 'Oh my God, you don't look good.' When you start hearing that from your friends, your people coming up to you and going, 'I can feel that you're not right.' People that are sensitive to you and know you very well, and you start hearing that over and over, and you start to think, 'Shit, something's got real. Maybe I need to start looking at this.'  Because it's just taking all your energy your way, isn't it, on so many levels. The restorative side and the ability to function in your life, and your work, and all of that, and that, of course, leads into depressive thoughts and that hyper-vigilant state constantly. That's really tiresome rather than being just chill, relax, enjoying life, and being able to... Like one of the things I love in my life is this podcast because I just get into such a flow state when I'm learning from such brilliant... Dr Don: You're in alpha. Lisa: I am. I am on it because this is, 'Oh. That's how that works.' And I just get into this lovely learning in an alpha state with people because I'm just so excited and curious. This is what I need to be doing more of. And less of the, if you'd see me half an hour ago trying to work out the technology. That's definitely not an alpha state for me. Dr Don: That's where they said Albert Einstein lived. Albert Einstein lived in alpha brainwave state. That's why information just float for him because there was no stress. He could then pull information very easily to float into. But if you're in a high beta brainwave state, there's too much activity. It has trouble focusing on anything because it's multiple threats on multiple fronts. So when we have a traumatic event, that's how it's being recorded. If you remember, what we talked about was there's a 400 of a millionth of a second gap in between your subconscious mind seeing the information and it going to your consciousness. So in 400 millionths of a second, your subconscious mind has already started a response into an action even though your conscious mind is not even aware of it yet.  Lisa: Yeah. Exactly what I did with rescuing my partner with the glass falling off the thing. I hadn't reached that logically. Dr Don: It's funny because that's one of the things that I talked about ,which is sort of, give us all a little bit of grace. Because if you've had a lot of trauma, you're going to respond a certain way. How could you not? If your mind's filtering into all of that, of course you're going to respond with that kind of a response because your mind is prone to go into that action very, very quickly. So we can give ourselves a little bit of grace in understanding that of course, you're going to do that, right? And not beat ourselves up.  Because you know what I talked about with everybody, there's nothing wrong with anybody. There's nothing wrong with anybody's mind. Everybody's mind is fine except you are experiencing something different than I experienced so your mind kept responding to it, and mine didn't have that. So you had multiple... Think about we have a hundred percent of our energy on our phone when we wake up in the morning, right? Fully powered up. You fire the phone up and eight programs open up, right? And mine has one.  Lisa: Yeah. You're just focusing on what you need to. Dr Don: Then noon comes, and you're having to plug your phone back in because you're out of energy.  Lisa: That's a perfect analogy. You're just burning the battery. My all is a hundred windows open in the back of my brain that is just processing all these things and so now, I can start to heal. So having gone through this process with you, like you said, we worked on a number of traumatic experiences, and I went through them in my mind. And then you did certain things, made me follow with my eyes and track here, and my eyes did this, and then, we pulled my attention out in the middle of the story and things. That helped me stay in that alpha state, brainwave state as I probably now understand while I'm still reliving the experience. That's sort of taking the colour out of it so that it's now sort of in a black and white folder. Now, it can still be shared, and it hasn't taken away the sadness of... Dr Don: Because it is sad that these things happen but that's not the response for an action which is that fear or anger, right? That dysregulation of the nervous system. That's what we want to stop, because that is what is going to affect health, enjoyment of life and everything else.  Lisa: Wow, this is so powerful. Yeah, and it's been very, very beneficial for me and helped me deal. For me, it also unfolded. Because after the four hour period with you, I had audiotapes and things that are meditations to do every day for the next 30 days. What were we doing in that phase of the recovery? What were you targeting in those sort of sessions?  Dr Don: So if you remember what we talked about, we have two memory systems. The explicit memory is what we worked on on that four hours. That's detail, events, and experiences. Once we get the mind processing through that, then we have to work on the same memory animals have, which is that associative repetitive memory. So you've built a series of codes on how to respond to threats, and that has come in over repetition and associations. So the audios are designed to start getting you now to build some new neural pathways, some new ways to respond because your mind won't switch a pattern instantly. It can switch a memory instantly, but a pattern is something that got built over a period of time. So it's like a computer. If I'm coding on my computer, I can't take one key to stop that code. I have to write a new code. Yeah, so what we're doing over the 30 days is writing new code. Lisa: Helping me make new routines and new habits around new neural pathways, basically.  Dr Don: You don't have that explicit memory interfering with the pathways. Because now, it's not constantly pulling you out, going back into an action call. It's basically now able to look at this information and these codes that got built and say, 'Okay, what's a better way? So do we have a better way of doing it?' Or 'Show me that code. Write that code.' If that code looks safer, then your mind will adopt that new code. Lisa: This is why, I think for me, there was an initial, there was definitely... Like the nightmares stopped, the intrusive every minute, hour triggering stopped, but the process over the time and the next... And I'm still doing a lot of the things and the meditations. It's reinforcing new habit building. This is where... Like for people dealing with addictions, this is the path for them as well, isn't it?  Dr Don: Yeah. Because I talked about addiction as a code. I don't believe it's a disease. Your mind has found a resource to stop pains, and your subconscious mind is literal. It doesn't see things as good or bad, or right or wrong. It's literal. 'Did that stop the pain? Let's do that.' Because it's trying to protect you. So if you've now repeated it over and over, not only have you stopped the pain, but you've built an association with a substance that is seen as beneficial. Lisa: Because your brain sees it as medicine when you're taking, I don't know, cocaine or something. It sees it as essential to your life even though you, on a logical level, know that, ‘This is destroying me and it's a bad thing for me.' Your subconscious goes, 'No, this is a good thing and I need it right now.' Dr Don: Because it's in the present, when does it want the pain to stop? Now. So it has no ability to see a future or a past. Your subconscious is in the moment. So if you take cocaine, the logical part of your brain goes, 'Oh, this is going to create problems for me. I'm going to become addicted.' Right? Your subconscious goes, ‘Well, the pain stopped. We don't see that as a bad thing.' I always use the analogy: Why did people jump out of the buildings at 911? They weren't jumping to die. They were jumping to live because when would they die? Now, if they jump, would they die? No. They stopped the death. So even jumping, which logically makes no sense, right? But to the subconscious mind, it was going to stop the pain now.  Lisa: Yeah, and even if it was two seconds in the future that they would die, your brain is going...  Dr Don: It doesn't even know what two seconds are.  Lisa: No. It has no time. Isn't it fascinating that we don't have a time memory or understanding in that part of the brain that runs 95% of the ship?  Dr Don: It's like what Albert Einstein said, ‘There's no such thing as time.' So it's like an animal. If an animal could communicate and you say, 'What time is it?' That would make no sense to an animal. 'What do you mean? It's now.' 'What time is it now?' 'Now. Exactly.' Lisa: It's a construct that we've made to... Dr Don: Just to explain a lot of stuff, right? When something happens.  Lisa: Yeah, and this is quite freeing when you think of it. But it does make a heck of a lot of sense. So people are not being destructive when they become drug addicts or addicted to nicotine, or coffee, or chocolate. They're actually trying to stop the pain that they're experiencing in some other place and fix things now. Even though the logical brain... Because the logical brain is such a tiny... Like this is the last part of our evolution, and it's not as fully...  We can do incredible things with it at 5%. We've made the world that we live in, and we're sitting here on Zoom, and we've got incredible powers. But it's all about the imagination, being able to think into the future, into the past, and to make correlations, and to recognise patterns. That's where all our creativity and everything, or not just creativity, but our ability to analyse and put forth stuff into the world is happening. But in actual, we're still like the animals and the rest of it. We're still running at 95%, and that's where we can run into the problems with these two.  Dr Don: Because you got two systems. You got a very advanced system operating within a very primitive system, and it hasn't integrated. It's still integrating, right? So if there's a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic, because it's designed to protect you. So there's no reason and logic that will come in if there's a survival threat. It's just going to respond the way it knows, does this Google search, 'What do we know about this threat? How do we know to protect ourselves, and we'll go instantly into survival mode.' Again, there's the reason and logic. Why would you jump out of a building, right? If you applied reason and logic, you wouldn't have jumped, right? People will say, 'Well, but they still jumped.' Yes, because reason and logic didn't even come into the process. It was all about survival.  Lisa: Yeah. When the fire is coming in it was either... Dr Don: 'Am I going to die out now or I'm going to move and not die now?'  Lisa: Yeah, and we're also prone to movement when we're in agitation and in an agitated state, aren't we? Basically, all of the blood and the muscles saying, 'Run, fight, do something. Take action.' Dr Don: That's why when people get into depression, it's the absence of those emotions.  Lisa: Yeah, and people feel exhaustion.  Dr Don: Yeah. The mind kept calling for an action using anger, for example, but you can't do the action because it's not happening, so it shuts down to protect you and stops calling for any emotion, and that's depression. So the key to get out of depression is actions. It's to get something happening. So in a lot of people who are depressed, what do I tell them to do? 'Start moving. Start exercising. Get out. Start doing things.' Right?  Lisa: So I run ultras. Dr Don: Exactly. Perfect example, right?  Lisa: Yeah, because I was. I was dealing with a lot of shit in my life at the time when I started doing ultra-marathons. To run was to quiet the pain and to run was to be able to cope and to have that meditative space in order to work through the stuff that was going on in my life. And I know even in my husband's life, when he went through a difficult time, that's when he started running. So running can be a very powerful therapeutic, because there is a movement, and you're actually burning through the cortisol and the adrenaline that's pouring around in your body. Therefore, sitting still and that sort of things was just not an option for me. I had to move. And it explains what, really. It's calling the movement. Like it was a movement because I couldn't fix the other thing.  Dr Don: That's what they'll tell you to do. To get out of depression is to move. What I say is the way to get out of depression is to get your mind to resolve what it's been asking for. Lisa: It's going a little deeper.  Dr Don: Yeah. So it's going down and saying, 'Okay, why has it been getting you angry and now, it shut down from the anger?' Because it's been trying to get you in your situation. 'Don't let Dad die. Don't let this happen.' Right? So because you couldn't do it, it just shuts down. Makes perfect sense but when we get to the resolution that there is no action required, there's no need for the depression anymore. The depression will lift because there's no more call for an action.  Lisa: I can feel that in me, that call. Anytime that anything does still pop up, I sort of acknowledge the feeling and say, 'There is no call for action here. This is in the past. This is a memory.' So I do remind myself that when things do still pop up from time to time now, as opposed to hourly. I go, 'Hey, come back into the now. This is the now. That was the then that's calling for an action. This is why you're doing thing.' Even that understanding

We live in a fast-paced world, with more everyday demands. And we know that we need good health to keep up. Nutrition, exercise, and mindfulness are often hailed as important pillars. However, there is something even more fundamental for better health—sleep. Sleep ensures we can actually perform. With better sleep, we'll be living better lives. But, how many of us actually prioritise sleep?     Dr Kirk Parsley joins us in this episode to explain how sleep affects our lives. Poor sleep can significantly change our bodies and performance. He also shares that we can achieve good sleep through lifestyle changes. A better life is not about taking more supplements or using gadgets and tools; it's about creating new and better habits.  If you want to know more about the science of sleep and how sleep affects our lives, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how sleep affects our lives and why it is so fundamental to our health.  Understand that it's more important to change our behaviours and lifestyle rather than depending on supplements.  Discover the ways we can create the right conditions for better sleep.     Resources Get Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy here!  Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!  Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:  Episode with Mark Divine Connect with Dr Kirk: Website I LinkedIn I Instagram I Facebook I Email  You can also get the free downloadable resource on decreasing stress before sleep here.   The Unbeatable Mind Podcast with Mark Divine Dr. Kirk Parsley - How to Supercharge Your Sleep Dr. Kirk Parsley on Sleep And Longevity Melatonin Supplementation with Dr John Lieurance in the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.     Melatonin: The Miracle Molecule by Dr John Lieurance Dr Harch's Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy America's Frontline Doctors How to save the world, in three easy steps. from Bret Weinstein's DarkHorse Podcast   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [03:28] How Dr Kirk Started Working on Sleep Dr Kirk used to work for the SEALs. Later on, he enrolled in the military's medical school. After getting his degree, Dr Kirk became the manager of a sports medicine facility for the military. Here, he worked with other medical experts.  Those in the military will usually lie to healthcare providers so they won't get excluded from work, but they tend to be more honest with Dr Kirk because they have worked with him before.  After testing for vitamin deficiencies and adrenal fatigue, Dr Kirk realised that many of his patients were taking Ambien, a sleeping drug.  After learning more about sleep, Dr Kirk realised that every symptom his patients were presenting could be explained by poor sleeping.  [17:31] Sleep's Various Cycles With a sleep drug, you are just unconscious and not sleeping.  Proper sleep needs to go through a repetitive pattern of deep sleep at the beginning of the night and then REM sleep by morning.  The different cycles are important since they affect our bodies in different ways.  Sleep can help boost your immunity and memory! Learn more benefits in the full episode.  [20:12] How Sleep Affects Our Lives If you don't give yourself time to recover, sleep pressure can accumulate and have progressively worse effects.  If you go to bed with high stress hormones, this can worsen your sleep. Poor sleep then leads to higher stress levels, and the cycle gets worse.  People who get poor sleep age faster, not just in appearance but also in their physiology.  Poor sleep can lead to protein structure breakdown, decreased blood supply, aged tissues, and more.  As we age, we also face the problem of not repairing as fast. This is how sleep affects our lives.  [23:56] The Foundation For Better Health We are often taught the basics of health are sleep, nutrition, exercise, and stress management.  However, these pillars cannot function without sleep as their foundation, emphasising how sleep affects our lives.  For example, exercise becomes counterproductive when you're sleep deprived because you're not recovering.  Poor sleep can also change your insulin sensitivity and gut biome, which changes your nutrition levels. Because of how sleep affects our lives, it should be our priority. Sleep deprivation is the fastest way to break someone down, this is why it's used as an interrogation technique.    [28:35] How Do We Sleep? We need eight hours of sleep a night. Make your sleeping routine simple. The more complex it is, the more likely you will fail.  First, convince yourself that sleep is important.  We are all born to sleep, and we don't need to learn how.  Before electricity, people used to fall asleep three hours after sunset. Tune in to the full episode to learn more about the neurochemical process of sleep.   [35:36] Creating the Right Conditions for Sleep During sleep, our senses still work, but they don't pay as much attention to external stimuli.  For our ancestors, the sunset will lead to decreased blue light, decreased temperature, decreased stimuli, and increased melatonin.  Better sleep is just creating these conditions in our environment.  If we take melatonin, we should be careful to take only small amounts.  [39:20] Melatonin Supplementation Some have argued that melatonin supplementation does not downregulate our brain receptors, but there are no definitive studies on this yet.  In fact, measuring melatonin is difficult due to its quantity and concentration in each part of the brain.  It's okay to take melatonin supplements but not in physiologic amounts.  [45:15] Can We Reverse Aging? You need to understand your genetics and what ratios will work for you.  While good habits and supplements can improve your overall health, we don't know if it undoubtedly reverses age.  Our bodies are more complex than we think. Shorting yourself two hours of sleep can change over 700 different epigenetic markers.  We can only describe biology. We don't know how to manipulate it most of the time.  Dr Kirk also shares his experience with hyperbaric oxygen therapy in the full episode.  [1:03:36] Paradigm Shifts in the Medical Industry There is a lot of dishonesty in both the media and the medical industry.  Many doctors and medical experts have been silenced on potentially better cures, especially during this pandemic.  Western medicine is effective in treating the sick, but it doesn't keep people from getting severely sick in the first place. A lifestyle change is more important than taking supplements.  [1:12:22] The Importance Of Behaviour Change  People often don't want to work on their behaviour because taking medicine is easier.  We also need to be aware of how the food industry is tapping into our addictive mechanisms to keep us eating more.   Caffeine consumption can also ruin our sleep. More than 200 milligrams can give the opposite effect of staying awake and alert.  Learn exactly how sleep affects our lives, together with caffeine and sugar consumption, when you listen to the full episode. [1:19:40] Widespread Impressions on Sleep and How It Affects Our Lives People have grown to believe that sleep is for the weak and lazy.  This belief also impacts our children, especially since they are still developing.  Losing two hours of sleep can decrease testosterone and growth hormone by 30% and increase inflammation by 30%, among others.   Dr Kirk delved into researching how sleep affects kids after giving a lecture for American kids overseas to professionals in the school system. Kids' brains are still developing. The prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that allows us to simulate things, experiences a shift during adolescence. [1:26:34] How Sleep Affects Our Lives as Kids Dr Kirk delved into researching how sleep affects kids after giving a lecture for American kids overseas to professionals in the school system. Kids' brains are still developing. The prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that allows us to simulate things, is formed during adolescence. Furthermore, adolescents also require more sleep because of a shift in their circadian rhythm. Requiring kids to do more with less sleep interferes with their development. [1:31:40] How Sleep Affects Our Lives When We are Sick A new field in medicine called chronobiology is studying how sleep deprivation precedes any psychiatric disease or psychological flare-up. An Ivy League hospital managed to get their patients off medication by regulating their circadian rhythm and chronobiology. [1:34:34] It's More Than Switching Things On and Off Medications can be difficult to get off because they have too many side effects.  For example, most antidepressants are not just working on serotonin. Instead, they affect several neurotransmitters as well.  Physiological doses are artificial and can cause you more trouble.  Learn how sleep medication and affects GABA receptors that slow down the brain when you listen to the full episode. [1:41:17] Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy Dr Kirk discusses how cavemen took around three hours after the sun went down to fall asleep. In the present day, what can people do in those three hours? To fall asleep, stress hormones need to come down due to lifestyle. Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy involves getting the proper ratios of substances. His product comes in the form of tea, stick pouches, and capsules.  [1:46:27] Dr Kirk's Final Advice Change your environment by decreasing blue light and stimulation.  Learn to slow everything down.  Just like how you slow everything down to get a kid to sleep, so should you do the same for an adult.   7 Powerful Quotes ‘You aren't actually sleeping when you're on sleep drugs. You're just unconscious. Your brain is dissociated, but it's not sleep.' ‘Often, if you're sleep-deprived, more is worse for sure. You don't really need to do any exercises. You just stay active until you've recovered, and then you can exercise again.' ‘Insulin sensitivity is decreased by 30%, just by losing two hours of sleep. One night with two hours of sleep. So you go from sleeping eight hours of sleep to six. If you're pre-diabetic, you're waking up diabetic.' ‘Even though I'm known for sleep, the hardest thing for me to coach people to do is to sleep.' ‘The most sleep-deprived years are the most horrible years of the brain development.' ‘Get rid of the blue light. Decrease the stimulation. Lower your body temperature. That's sleep hygiene.' ‘Part of lowering stress is just slowing down your thinking. You can't work on your computer until 9:59 and get in bed in 10 and think you're gonna be asleep.'   About Dr Kirk Dr Kirk Parsley was a former Navy SEAL who went on to earn his medical degree from Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences (USUHS) in Bethesda in 2004. From 2009 to 2013, he served as an Undersea Medical Officer at the Naval Special Warfare Group One. He also served as the Naval Special Warfare's expert on sleep medicine.  Dr Kirk has been a member of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine since 2006 and consults for multiple corporations and professional athletes. He gives lectures worldwide on wellness, sleep, and hormonal optimisation. He believes that many diseases and disorders are unnecessary complications of poor sleeping habits. We can achieve the highest quality of life possible by changing this habit problem.  Interested in Dr Kirk's work? Check out his website. You can also reach him on LinkedIn, Instagram,  Facebook, and email.       Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn how sleep affects our lives and what we can do about it. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of the Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hey everyone! And welcome to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have another amazing guest for you. I managed to get some incredible people. I have Dr Kirk Parsley with me. He is an ex-Navy SEAL, and also a medical doctor. A little bit of an overachiever, this one. He spent many years in the SEALs, an incredible man. He also was involved with the first sports medicine rehabilitation centre that was working with the SEALs, an incredible expert on sleep. And that's what we do a deep dive into today. We also talk about hyperbaric oxygen therapy. We also go into areas about the current state of the medical system, one of my favourite topics. And I hope you enjoy this episode. It's really, the most important thing is around sleep.  Sleep is something that all of us, I think, are underestimating its importance. And that this is the biggest lever, not food, not exercise, not meditation, not mindfulness, not anything else. Number one of all leverage points is sleep. So how the heck do you get enough sleep? What is enough sleep, and how to get it is what this episode is about.  Before we head over, I just want to remind you we have Boost Camp coming up. This is our eight-week live online program. There, Neil Wagstaff and I, my business partner and longtime friend and coach are doing. And we're going to, if you want to come and hang out with us live every week and learn everything about upgrading your life, basically, your performance, how to optimise all areas of your life, then we would love you to check the information out, head over to peakwellnessco.nz/boostcamp.  On that point, if you're also interested, come and check out our flagship program, which is our epigenetics program, where we look at your genetics, and how to optimise those specifically, all the areas of your life: your food, your nutrition, your exercise, your mood, and behaviour, your hormones, all these important areas, specifically to your genetics. One-on-one time with us and help us to understand everything about your genetics. It's an incredible platform and amazing AI technology behind us. And we'd love you to check that out.  Go to peakwellnessco.nz/epigenetics. Or reach out to me if you didn't get that. We will also have the links down in the show notes, if you want to just click over to that. Or you can just head over to my website, www.lisatamati.com. And hit the work with us button for our programs listed on there as well. So without further ado, now over to Dr Kirk Parsley.  Well, hi, everybody! And welcome to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have a superstar, who is a good friend of Commander Mark Divine, you may have heard previous weeks on my podcast. We have Dr Kirk Parsley with us today. Welcome to the show.  Dr Kirk Parsley: Thank you. I feel very welcome and happy to be here. I'm still here. I'm happy to be sharing this airspace with you or whatever it is sharing.  Lisa: I'm really super excited. I've heard you a number of times on Mark's show and just thought how hefty you're on because you're such an expert. We're gonna dive into a little bit into your background, but you're an absolute sleep expert. So I'm really keen to help my audience with their sleep, and their sleep patterns, and all of that good stuff. But before we get into that, we were just chatting about genetics and endurance. So, give us a little background. You've been a Navy SEAL. You've been in the military, in the naval military. So give us a bit of background on yourself, personally. Dr Kirk: Yes. So ironically, I actually dropped out of high school. I was a terrible student my whole life, didn't have any interest in school. And after you don't do well for long enough, you just convince yourself that you can't do well. And so you're just, ‘I'm just done. I can't do it'. I was always very physical, very athletic. Just fortunately, genetic lottery, I won, just be an athletic and strong guy. And it came pretty easy to me. But I worked hard at it because I didn't do school work. So when I dropped out of high school, to join the military and do the hardest training in the world. And that was what the SEAL training was supposed to be, as the toughest training in the world like, ‘Well, I'm gonna go do that.' So I went to do that.  This was a way long time ago. This is 1988. So, it was long before anybody knew what SEALs were. They didn't have the notoriety they have now for sure. And when I would come home from the Navy and tell people as I was a Sealer, like, ‘What do you mean, you work for SeaWorld or something? What do you do?' Kinda. So, I went through SEAL training, I would say I made it through SEAL training, I became a SEAL. That was pre-9/11, obviously. So we didn't have the combat that the SEALs of this generation do. So it's not really comparable. We were still mainly working in Southeast Asia doing police work and training other militaries.  I did three deployments. It was really the same thing over, and over, and over again because there was no combat. So you just did the same training, and then you deployed, and then came home, and you did the same training. And of course, I was like, ‘Maybe, I'll go do something else.' And I thought I would be—I was dating a woman who would become my wife. She was getting a master's in physical therapy. And I was reading her textbooks on deployment to make myself a better athlete. And I thought, maybe I could be a physical therapist. And so I started working, I started volunteering in a physical therapy facility in San Diego, called San Diego Sports Medicine Center. And it had every kind of health care provider you could possibly imagine. And this building, it's just this healthcare Mecca. It's the most holistic thing I've ever seen to this day.  I decided pretty quickly, I didn't want to be a physical therapist, but I don't know what else I wanted to do. But I got to follow the podiatrist around, and acupuncturist, and massage therapists, and athletic trainers, and conditioning coaches, and the orthopedist, and the family practice, and the sportsmen. I just got to follow them around and see how everybody worked. And a group of young doctors there, who were probably only five or six years older than me, and they were saying, ‘Well, you should go to medical school.' And I was like, ‘Pump the brakes, kiddo. I didn't even graduate high school. I'm not getting into medical school.' And then the senior doctor overhears the conversation. He comes out of the office. And he says, ‘Kirk, the question isn't, “Can you get in?” The question is, “Would you go if you've got in?”' And I said, ‘Of course, I'd go.' So, well, there you have it. So, he sort of shamed me into it/  I studied hard and got really good grades. And then when it came time to apply for medical school, this was pre-Internet, so you had to go to the bookstore and get your book review and look and see what schools are competitive for. And when I was going through one of those books, I found out that the military had their medical school. The military was a closed chapter in my mind. I'd done that. That's something that I figured I'd always do in my life. But it was never meant to be my whole life. And so I had done that. I was, I figured I was done. But I was already married and had kids. And I was like, ‘Well, the military will pay me to go to medical school. Or I can pay someone else to go to medical school and my wife can work while we're in medical school.'  I made enough to support my family and go to medical school for free. And then to pay off in the military's, they'll train you to do anything. You have to give them years of service and your job. So once you finish your medical training, you have to be a doctor for the military for eight years. And so I figured, ‘I'll get back to the SEAL teams, I'll go pay something back to the community that helped me, was hugely formidable in who I became in my life.' And went back to the SEAL teams, really well-prepped to do sports medicine and orthopedics. And I knew quite a bit about nutrition, and performance, and strength and conditioning. I was pretty sure I had the exact pedigree. When I got there, they had just gotten the money to build a sports medicine facility, which was actually their vision was exactly what I told you that I worked in in college. That's exactly what they wanted to build. I'm like, ‘I got this.' So they put me in charge of building this out. And I was a significant part of us hiring everyone we hired. So we hired our first strength and conditioning coach, our first nutritionist, our first PT, our first everything.  We built our own sports medicine facility. And then orthopedics was coming through every week, and they had to do rounds there. And we'd have pain rounds, pain management rounds come through. We had an acupuncturist coming through. And we hired all these people from the Olympic Training Center, and professional sports teams, and the best colleges. And so, we had all these brilliant people who knew way more than I did about what they do.  Lisa: So you went from there to there.  Dr Kirk: Yeah. And so at that point, I was the dumbest person around, right? Because we had all these experts in every little niche that I knew this much about. We hired experts who knew that much about. And so in the military, when you're the dumbest guy, they put you in charge, right and say, ‘Well, you manage this,' right? And so, I'm managing all these people who know more than I do, however that works. But my office was in this facility that we built.  The SEALs are a lot like professional athletes in that you put them on a bench, so to speak, right? Because they're injured, they need some help. So they can't work. It's the worst thing. Worst thing. So when they see a health care provider, they just lie because they don't want to be— Lisa:  They don't wanna be taken out.  Dr Kirk Parsley: They will take money out of their pocket, and go into the city, and find a doctor to treat them so that the doctor at work doesn't know, so they don't get put on the sideline. But because I was a SEAL, and there were still a lot of SEALs at the SEAL team. It was close enough to my time. There are still a lot of SEALs at the team who I worked with, and I trained with, and deployed with. And so they knew me. And I had a good reputation. And so they trusted me, and they come in my office and they say, ‘Let me tell you what's going on with me.'  They reported this litany of symptoms that didn't have any pattern that I could recognise. And so they were saying that their motivation was low, that they're very moody, that they couldn't concentrate. They're super forgetful. Their energy was low. Their body composition was shifting. They felt slower, and dumber, and colder. None of them were sleeping very well. They're all taking sleep drugs. They had low sex drive. They had a lot of joint pain, a lot of inflammation. And I didn't have the slightest idea. I'm like, ‘And I know it sounds like you're obese and 65. But I'm looking at you and you're not. So I don't know what's going on.'  I just started testing everything I could possibly test. I tested literally 98 blood markers. They were giving 17 vials of blood. Now just shotgun approaches, test everything, and see what's abnormal. And I started seeing some patterns. And they had really low anabolic hormones, so the DBTA, and testosterone, and dihydrotestosterone, pregnenolone. All of that was low. They really have high inflammatory markers. They really had poor insulin sensitivity for how healthy I knew they were, and how well they ate, and how much they exercised. But it's still within the normal range. But it wasn't. Everything was in the normal range. But everything that should be really high was just like barely in the normal range. And everything that should be really low, it's just barely inside of that range. They didn't have a disease. And I was a medical doctor, so I had learned how to treat disease, then they didn't have disease. So I was like, ‘I don't know. What am I going to do?' So that led me to having to train with outside providers. And fortunately, at that time, the SEALs did have the reputation. They'd already done all these amazing things. This was in 2009. So, I think they'd already shot Bin Laden and at that point. So I could call anybody, right? I'd watch somebody's TED Talk, read their book, I'd see them lecture. And I'll just call them and say, ‘I'm a doctor for the West Coast SEAL team. Could I come train with you? Can I consult with you? Can I ask you some questions?' And everybody was generous and said, ‘Absolutely'. So I get to learn a lot really quickly. I take a lot of leave from work and just go sit in these guys' clinics for four or five days. And just pick their brain, go see patients with them, and take notes, and learn. And then I just call them every time I have a question. And I just got to learn really quickly. It's like this team of experts who knew everything about the alternative world.  I was trying to treat people for adrenal fatigue. And I was trying to treat people for vitamin and mineral deficiencies, which are obvious from what was going on. And I couldn't quite figure out what it was. And about 100 patients into it, and probably after 30 guys came in, I could have told everybody, they could just sit down. I'll tell you what you're going to tell me. I could have just just route it off; it's so similar. And about 100 guys into it, embarrassing that it took so long, but I remember this guy telling me that he took Ambien every night. What do you guys call it? Stilnox, I think, right?  I was married to an Aussie, so I know a lot. I mean, I know you're not an Aussie, but I know a little bit about your world, as in your language. And I remember putting a note in the margin, ‘Seems like a lot of guys take an Ambien.' Then I go back through everybody's records, 100% of the guys who had been in my office were taking Ambien. So I thought, ‘Well, maybe that's an issue, right?' So, let me go look at the side effects of Ambien. And it was a fairly new drug. And the pharmaceutical industry, they get to cherry-pick their data. So they were like, ‘Oh, it's the safest drug ever. There's nothing, no problems.' And I'm like, ‘I don't quite believe that.'  Unfortunately, like every other doctor in America, I didn't know anything about sleep. I never had a single class on sleep in medical school, didn't have the foggiest idea what should be happening. I knew what you called a mechanism of action on this drug, which means molecularly what does it do. Well, it binds GABA receptors and has an effect called GABA analog, and benzodiazepines are the same, things like Valium. And so that's about as much as I knew, Well, what is GABA doing? What is GABA supposed to do? And then you can't really understand that without understanding what's actually going on in sleep.  Then, I had to learn about sleep physiology. And what's supposed to happen during sleep? And what are the normal shifts and changes? And what does that do? And if that doesn't happen, what effects do you get? So after studying quite a bit, I figured out the general Occam's razor principle of the thing with the least assumptions is, literally, every single symptom that these men told me about, could be explained by poor sleep.  Now, I didn't think that it would be, right? I wasn't naive, but it could have, then, right? So if this was definitely the most powerful thing, because being a Western doctor I wanted to give them Cortef and raise their cortisol. I wanted to give them testosterone and raise their testosterone. I wanted to get like, I wanted to give them medication to improve their insulin sensitivity. I wanted to just go in there and do it. But I couldn't do that, right? Because you can't give SEALs medication that they're dependent upon. Because then, what if they go out on the field, and they don't have their medication, they can't do their job and it's a waste. So that puts people on the bench, that disqualifies people. So I couldn't do that.  I had to figure out, well, what else can I do? So like I said, sleep seemed like the unifying theory. So let me see about that. And this was right around the time that everybody was catching on to the important vitamin B3. And that was associated with poor sleep. So, I tested all my guys. Every one of them had low vitamin B3. So I'm like, ‘Yeah, I'm going to give them vitamin B3. I'm going to be a hero. Everyone is gonna love me. I'm the best doctor ever.' And it helped a little bit. But it wasn't everything.  Like I said, I had this epiphany with this sleep drug. And once I learned enough about the sleep drug, you aren't actually sleeping when you're on sleep drugs. You're just unconscious. Your brain is dissociated, but it's not sleep. Because sleep has to have, as one of its criteria, you have to have this predictable sleep architecture. You have to be going through these sleep cycles that take you through these different stages. And a particular pattern is repetitive, and it's primarily deep sleep in the beginning of the night, and almost exclusively REM sleep by morning, and you have to do that transition.  If you don't do that, then it's not sleep. It can be partially sleep, if you're just getting poor sleep. But I was having these guys do sleep studies. And they were coming back with 99.9% of their sleep study being stage 2 sleep, which is just the transition. It's what we call a transitional sleep phase. So it's not deep sleep or REM. So they weren't really getting any of the benefits of sleep. And of course, that's an oversimplification. They're obviously getting something, or they'd be dead. But we don't know what they're getting.  That's all we know is that healthy sleep does this, and when you go through these cycles, we know these things happen. Like when you're in deep sleep, we know that's when you're the most anabolic, and you're secreting your anabolic hormones like growth hormone, and testosterone, and DHEA is being ramped up, your immune system's being ramped up. We know this happens. And then we know in REM sleep, what's going on in the brain: the physiological changes, forming more durable neural tracks, that neurological memories, shifting things from working memory into long term memory, pruning off useless information, these little buttons that grow on the side of your nerves that are starting to bud new information. You're like, ‘I don't need that.' You clean up all that. You get rid of weak products and you get the brain working better.  The whole purpose of going to sleep tonight is to prepare myself for tomorrow, right? Whatever I do today, that's what my brain and body are gonna think it needs to do tomorrow. It's gonna use today as a template to try to make me better tomorrow at doing what I did today. And if I don't get enough sleep, if I don't get to restore, I still have to do tomorrow. And how do I do that? Well, I do it the same way you do anything. I'm stressed out. I use Marinol and a bunch of cortisol and DHEA. And I start robbing all my nutrients for my cells. My blood glucose is going up, I'm getting fuel sources that way, epinephrine and norepinephrine stimulate my brain and my tissues to be able to get energy where there's really no energy there. And then I'm going to bed with these really high stress hormones, which are supposed to be low when I sleep, and then I'm trying to sleep with high stress hormones. Then, I get worse sleep. Then, I need more stress hormones tomorrow. And that's what breaks people.  In fact, when you see somebody who doesn't sleep well for even six months, they look so much older. ‘Why does he look old? That doesn't make sense. Is it just because they're tired? Is it tired old?' But if you think about it, you're born into this contract. You're born into this contract; you can't get around. It's just like you're born knowing you're going to die, 100% certain you're going to die. There's also this other contract that certainly is your body ideally worked for about 16 hours, and it needs eight hours to recover. That's the way it works. That's what you're born into. There's small variations there. But obviously, you can't get around that.  If you don't get those 8 hours, you didn't recover from those 16 hours. And so if you think about it logically, obviously, when you're a kid, you need more sleep. So it's not a great example, when you're really young. Kids actually sleep a lot more than eight hours by and large, but you see them actually getting better every day, right? They're growing. They're getting smarter. They're getting more coordinated. You can see that every day. But if you think about, say, like, once you hit 25, and your brain's fully formed, and everything's static. If you could recover 100% every night, and wake up the next morning as good as you were that other morning, you wouldn't age, right? There would be no aging because you would have recovered 100%.  Lisa: It's very important, yep.  Dr Kirk: Everything that you're deficient in, if you're missing 10%, you're going to age that 10%. And if you're missing a little more, you're going to age faster. So when you see people who haven't been sleeping well for a year, they are literally older because they've been recovering less and less every night. So yeah, there's a breakdown in their protein structure. There's decrease in their blood supply, their peripheral vascularisation. Their tissues are aging. There's a buildup of waste products that aren't getting out, and that's toxic. And that's damaging the mitochondria and forming more senescent cells, and all these other things, they're building up. And every marker that we have, even genetic marker, when you look at your children and linked methylation on the genes. Every marker, they look older. And then when you look at them, they look older. That's why.  That's really what aging is. It's really just the absence of being able to recover 100% every night. And as we get older, we just don't repair as fast. And that's, unfortunately, when most people quit sleeping as much. And now that's double whammy there. You're getting twice the aging effects that way. And there's no reason to sleep less when you're old. It's typical, but it's not something you have to do. I've had 84-year-old women who haven't slept more than 4 or 5 hours in 20 years, and I get them to sleep eight hours a night.  Lisa: I've got one over there who's rustling around, walking around behind me. She's 80 years old, nearly. Hey, mum. And she's struggling with sleep in the early morning hours. And therefore, you know her memory and things. So I want to pick your brain on that. Can I just slow you down a little bit because we just covered a ton of ground here. Dr Kirk: You just asked me about myself, and I just couldn't stop. Lisa: No, but you were on an absolute roll. So I didn't want to interrupt you because there was so many things, but my brain's just going like, ‘There's so many questions!'  Dr Kirk: That was just meant to be an overview.  Lisa: That was an overview. Now can we dive deeper into some of the weeds because now I understand why you've become, classically, the sleep expert because obviously that was the biggest leverage. In other words, this is the biggest leverage point that you see. When we think of the SEALs, we think of the SEALs as being these gods of amazingness that can do everything. But what you're saying is like these guys are pushing their limits: endurance, and in fatigue, and all things like that. And so they're going to be the Canaries in the Gold Mines in a way because they're going to be coming up against the limits of everything.  For you to say, as an ultra marathon, so I've come up against the limits in certain ways, like with sleep deprivation. And I sort of understand some of the things now that you were talking about. So you've ended up finding out that this is probably the biggest leverage point in anybody's life, basically, for their health is their sleep. So people, take a bit of a grip on that one. It's not necessarily the food or nutrition, it's the sleep. Would you agree? Dr Kirk: When I first started lecturing, I used to say there were four pillars of health: sleep, nutrition, exercise. And then the fourth pillar is audience dependent. It could be mindfulness, stress medication, it could be community, whatever it is that controls your stress hormones, and your emotions, and your mood, and all that stuff. Then after a while, I shift to there's three pillars sitting on the foundation of sleep. Because if you take the sleep away, none of those are going to work. There's nothing you can do. In fact, if you exercise when you're sleep deprived, it's counterproductive because you're not recovering. And we all know that you don't actually get better when you exercise. You damage yourself when you exercise. Then when you sleep, you recover, and you come back stronger. When you deprive yourself of sleep, you change your entire gut biome, you change your insulin sensitivity. You change everything here. And now your nutritional status doesn't work anymore. And when you don't sleep well, as I said, you increase your stress hormones. So you can do the mindfulness training and all of that stuff, meditate and all that, but you're just going to bring yourself down maybe to where you would have been if you just slept well and didn't do any kind of training.  It's really the foundation for everything. And I say that all the time. It sounds hyperbolic, but I'm 100% convinced it's true. There's nothing that you can do that will, nothing that will break you faster than poor sleep, and poor and insufficient sleep. There's a reason we use it as an interrogation technique.  Lisa: Exactly. Yeah.  Dr Kirk: There's a reason we break people down, intentionally, this way because it depletes all your resources. It interferes with your brain function, your willpower, your problem solving, your speech, your ability to formulate plans, your motivation, your mood. Everything goes almost instantaneously with one night of lack of asleep. Never mind keeping somebody up for three or four days in a row. They're just a mess. They're just in input mode. They just want you to just, ‘Tell me whatever I have to do. I'd do it. Then I'll sleep. Anything I can do to get sleep, I'll do it.' You don't have to rip people's fingernails out of stuff. You just deprive them from sleep.  Conversely, there's nothing that will improve the quality of your life and your performance faster than sleeping. Well, if you're an inadequate sleeper, which most people are. They don't even know they are. Everybody has these 30-day challenges and 60-day challenges. I'm like, ‘I only need seven days.' Again, one week where sleep is your number one priority. And you do everything right, and you get eight hours of sleep, at least eight and a half hours in bed every night, and you're sleeping approximately eight hours a night. And give me that for a week. And then, if you're not convinced this the most powerful thing, go back to wherever you're going. But nobody's ever gone back.  Lisa: A lot of us, I can hear people saying, ‘Yeah, but I go to bed, and I can't sleep. And I wake up at 2 am. And my brain is racing and I've been told to do some meditation. And maybe it's my cortisol.' Let's look now because if we haven't got the message across now that sleep is the number one thing that you should be prioritising about everything that you do, we haven't done very well for the last half an hour.  How do we sleep? What foods do we need to eat before we go to bed or not eat? What supplements can we take? You've got your sleep remedy that we'll get into a little bit. What routine can I do to optimise? What light-dark cycles? All of these things that can be leveraged points for us in optimising our sleep. And how do we test that we're actually in that deep-sleep phase? What are one of the best tools that you've found to work that out? So that was a mouthful, but yeah. Dr Kirk: So the first thing we need to do is get away from that phonetic question right there, which is what everybody's going through in their heads up like, ‘What about this? What about that?' And so my job is to make this really simple. Because simple things we can do, and the more nuanced your plan is around sleep, the more likely it is to fail. And we're doing big, macro movements here. So the very first thing is, what you said, I think we've already covered. The very first thing is to convince yourself that sleep is the most important thing. And to make it your priority for at least one week to get everything going.  Now, when I say your priority, I mean the true meaning of that word. There's only one thing there's nothing else, that's the one, including raising your kids, and your dog, and your exercise routine, and everything else. The most important thing is to sleep. The most important thing for winning. If you aren't quite convinced yet go to PubMed, or go to Google Scholar, or something like this, then put in sleep and anything else you care about: being a parent, mood, dating, sex drive, athleticism, strength, endurance, concentration, memory, I don't care. Whatever it is you care about—strength and this, strength and business, strength and I don't care. Anything you want.  Read to your heart's content. It will convince you that the one good thing about sleep, in the sleep sciences, it's not actually controversial. There's no one out there saying, ‘Oh, you don't really need to sleep.' Everybody agrees. There's nuances and people are different. Everybody agrees you need about eight hours of sleep a night. And just convince yourself that is the most important thing. Once you're there, that's the most important thing.  After that, recognise, ‘Okay. I'm going to make this my number one priority.' Recognise that you're born to sleep. You don't need to learn; you need to unlearn some stuff, right? You're designed to do this. And this should feel good. You should enjoy sleeping. You should usually look forward to going to bed and waking up in the morning, like, ‘Man, I feel so much better. I'm ready to go do my day.' This should be as easy as selling sex but it's not. People resist this forever. I have no idea why. It's great. Why don't you like sleep? I've always liked sleep. So then you just think, ‘Okay, when did sleep go bad for humankind?' Probably in the last seventy years.  Lisa: Yeah, when we got electric light.  Dr Kirk: That's about it, right? It's only been, really since rural electrification, right? Since they got electricity out to everybody. That's really when it started. When you look back in America just 100 years ago, look at people's journals in the winter, they spent like 14 hours a day in bed. That's a certain thing they do. So if you think about it, and just say, ‘I know this is simple. I'm going to let myself fall into it.' And then I'll tell you, there's all the sleep hygiene. You can get on the Internet, and you can find, ‘Oh, do this. Drink a hot cup of tea. Drink milk. Do this. Make your room really cold. Make your room really dark. Make your bed really soft. Make your bed really hard. And get a white noise machine. Get rid of all the EMF.' A million people are going to tell you all sorts of different things to do. And I'll cut through all the BS, and then you can pick and choose. The real answer is all of that stuff works, to some extent. All of that's important to some extent. The way I work with clients is at least 95% of all the successes is from lifestyle. And then all these little gadgets, and your mitigation tools, and supplements, and all this stuff back, that's the other 5. It's 95% behavioural. So you just look back, how did we evolve to sleep? Nobody teaches people how to sleep, right? You're born as a baby; you sleep. So how did we sleep as adults in cultures 100 years ago? Well, when the sun went down, we fell asleep about three hours later, and we woke up around the time the sun came up. It was pretty much that easy.  Okay, so let's reverse engineer that a little bit. I think most people know that blue light is a stimulus for being awake. We don't truly have a sleeping program. If you think of it like software, we don't have any sleeping software. We just have lack of awakening software. So we have things that go on in our brain and body that make us still awake and make us interact with our environment. And then when you take those things away, we're in what we call sleep. The blue light, actually, has nothing to do with the vision. There's nerve cells in the back of your eyes. It senses blue light. That's all they do. And then they fire pathways back to the circadian pathway membrane, essentially. And then the pineal gland secretes melatonin. The melatonin is a hormone, the starter pistol. It initiates all these cascades. And then one of the cascades that it initiates is the production of this peptide called GABA, capital G-A-B-A, gamma-Aminobutyric acid. And what that does is it slows down the neocortex.  When you think of the human brain, the picture of the human brain, we all have that big, wrinkly, massive crescent shape. That's what we call the neocortex. And that is how we interact with the world, right? All of our senses get processed in that, and then all of our movement is processed from that, right? So when we're asleep, all that's really different with our sleep, about in a general sense, right? There's nuances in every neuron and every molecule. And then, in the neural sense, there's a barrier between us and our environment is how it's phrased. What it means is we aren't paying attention to our environment anymore. Our eyes obviously still work, right? You can turn the light and you can wake somebody up. Our ears still work, you can make your noise and wake somebody up. Our sense of touch still works. You can shake somebody. They can roll into something sharp, and their pain receptors will wake them up. Heat will wake them up. Cold will wake them. So we still work. Everything still works. We start processing it. We're not paying attention to it.  What helps us do that is GABA. So GABA involves neurons. A neuron has what's called a resting potential. So there's like an electrical current in here. And when you put in enough electrical current, it goes like this. And that neuron fires. And then, does whatever it does and forms pathways. Well, GABA lowers that. Now, it takes more energy to make that thing fire. And you can overcome this by just putting a lot of energy into the cells. So if you've ever been exhausted, woken up exhausted, didn't get enough sleep for whatever reason. Like, ‘I'm going to go to work. I'm gonna come home. I'm going straight to bed. I'm gonna sleep 12 hours a day.' And then your friends talk you into going out or you get a cup of a drink. You stay up ‘til midnight, ‘I feel fine.' And then you suffer again the next day, right? Because you just overcame that.  You can actually read about this because this still exists, believe it or not, they're still I think 35 or 45 pretty large communities around the globe that have never experienced electricity. And they just lived like hunters and gatherers. They go out. And the men go out and hunt. And the women pick, and nurture their kids, and weave. And just when you think of your caveman doing, they still live like that today. And we study these people. And we did actigraphy. So it's not true sleep, say. It's just movement to know when they're likely to be asleep. And what we find is, the sun goes down. Again, the blue light goes out of their eyes. It fires, the brain starts secreting melatonin that leads to a cascade of 365 billion other chemical changes in the brain, right? But that initiation has to happen. Once that initiation is going, one of the things it does is secrete GABA, increase GABA production in lots of regions of the brain that starts slowing the brain down.  The sun goes down. They don't have electricity, right? The best they have is a fire. So what else happens? Their body temperature goes down. So when the sun goes down and it is dark, we can't see well at night, we can't see very far. So there's way less stimulus, right? They don't have flashing lights. They don't have loud music. So there's not much to stimulate them. So they sit around a fire. Maybe if they're lucky, if not, they just stare around the dark, and they have some quiet, calm conversations, and then they drift off to sleep.  That's all sleep hygiene is. That's it. Those three things: decrease the blue light, decrease the stimulation to your brain, and drop your body temperature. You need a cool place to sleep. One of the things that you can do to speed these things up is to concentrate the right nutrients in your brain. If you are going to take melatonin and just take a very, very, very, very small amount. You just want to initiate. You don't want to put so much melatonin in your brain that your brain doesn't need to make melatonin because then you start running insensitivity to melatonin, and now when you take it away, you don't have, you're essentially melatonin deficient because you've downregulated the receptors, and your brain is not sensitive to melatonin anymore. Lisa: Can I just stop in the first, one second. Dr John Lieurance is his name and he was on the Ben Greenfield podcast, and he's written a book about melatonin. And he argued that melatonin, interesting work, doesn't downregulate when you take melatonin, and doesn't cause that downregulation. All the other hormones do. If we take testosterone, we're going to downregulate our own testosterone, if we take right whatever. He said that they didn't. And he was advocating in his book for actually, super-physiological doses of melatonin. Certainly when you're doing things like jetlag, or whatever you're trying to reset, but also for a raft of other ailments to help with many diseases. Have you heard of his work or? Dr Kirk: I'm familiar with him and his work.  Lisa: Yeah. What's your take on that? Because I was like, ‘I don't know.' Dr Kirk: So, I disagree, obviously.  Lisa: Yeah. That's what I want to know. Dr Kirk: But specifically, so what he's talking about, 90% of his work is about the antioxidant. Lisa: Yes. Is it an antioxidant? Yep.  Dr Kirk: The studies that he's quoting are saying that melatonin doesn't downregulate. We don't know for sure. It's like, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. The only way we would know is if we could actually drop a catheter into somebody's brain and sample their fluid in their brain 24 hours a day and study this over months. And so we can't say for sure. We can do animal models. Again, it's hard to quantify because from the time the sun goes down, which is about three hours before you'll fall asleep, to the entire time you slept, until the sun comes up, you're looking at somewhere between 11 and 12 hours. That entire time your brain will only produce five to six micrograms of melatonin.  Lisa: Tiny amount. Dr Kirk: So how do we study, right? It's really hard to study, and you think of it in a mouse model, how much smaller the quantities are we're looking at that point. And the concentration of melatonin in each region of the brain is not the same, it depends on some cells in the brain can actually be stimulated by melatonin. It's somewhere. It's different. And same with GABA. GABA doesn't go to every region of the brain because it can stimulate regions of the brain. But what we do know, so first, I always go with, we don't know anything. We have research that makes us believe certain things are likely to be true based on the best science we have right now. So we don't know anything. And I believe that to be true about everything in science. Just wait a week, it might change. But what we do know is that every other hormone does this.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Kirk: But if it doesn't do this, it's the only hormone in the body that doesn't. Pretty unlikely. But what we do know with 100% certainty is that it does downregulate melatonin receptors. Lisa: Right. Dr Kirk: It can take away melatonin receptors. If I normally have 10 melatonin receptors, and I go down to just having one, now even if I'm sprayed with melatonin, I only have one. And I have to have this supersaturation for this one receptor to do all this work. And if I go down to normal physiologic levels of melatonin and this one receptor, there's just getting an occasional melatonin coming by, I'm going to be, it's no different. It doesn't matter whether I'm not producing enough, or I don't have enough receptors, it's the same end result. You have to have melatonin binders stuffing pulled into the cell to have it function. Lisa: So can I ask one question there like, so for elderly, who, from what I understand, in my basic research on melatonin, is that their melatonin production goes down with age, and, therefore, they could benefit from melatonin supplementation. Is that a thing or? Dr Kirk: Yeah, I agree. And so what happens is that the pineal gland calcifies just like our arteries. And every vessel, everything in our body calcifies, right. That's sort of aging. Lisa: One of the majors.  Dr Kirk: And so it calcifies, and you do almost certainly secrete less melatonin, right? And again, the only way we would know is to drop a catheter into somebody's brain. But I'm not saying that you shouldn't take melatonin at all. I'm just saying you shouldn't take super physiologic. So his example of when you're speaking about the melatonin work earlier, right? His example is, well, this is a great antioxidant. Now, if I do these super physiologic amounts, there's all these benefits to it. Well, if I give you 10 times the amount of testosterone that your body ordinarily has, you're gonna feel fantastic. If I give you something that secretes a bunch of epinephrine and norepinephrine, like cocaine. And you have this huge rush of norepinephrine; you feel fantastic. And you're super productive, and your brain's really sharp. Does that make that a good idea? I don't think so. I don't deal with anything super physiologic.  Again, I'm the behaviourist, and 95% of all your health is going to come from re-approximating the way you revolt. This body takes hundreds of thousands of years to adapt to this planet. And now we're just like, ‘No, we're smarter. Like I'm a 35-year-old biohacker. I read a bunch of books. I know I can do it better than–” We know nothing about the body. Lisa: Can we all mean for people–we also know that people tend to die. If we wanted to extend our healthspan and their lifespan, but healthspan mainly, can we, with hormone replacement therapy, there's a raging argument: should you be on hormone replacement therapy, should you not? If you're wanting to optimise. Now, there's downsides. And you need to understand your genetics, and you need to understand all of those aspects.  There is benefits for us to taking testosterone or DHEA or all these things in the right physiological doses of, say, a 30-year-old, like, I'm 50 or 52, I want to be at the level that I was, say at 30–35. I understand my genetics, I know where my risk factors are. I can keep an eye on all of that sort of stuff. Can I all meet that so that I live and function longer? Because I think the core question here is how do we optimise? Yes, we've developed like cavemen but then they die at 70–80, as well. Can we extend that with the knowledge that we currently have? Dr Kirk: Well, so I don't ever promise anybody that I can make them live longer. I say, ‘You might live longer from this.' If you think about it, think about it this way: at first, we talk about what sleep does, right? And if we could catch up every night, we wouldn't age. So what are we doing when we're doing things like hormone-replacement therapy? We're doing metabolomics. And we're doing all sorts of supplementation around that, or we're doing artificial things like hyperbaric, and near-far IR sauna, and ice baths, and doing all these steps to stimulate the production of the thing.  Of course, now we have antibiotics, and we have all sorts of treatments to keep people from dying as young from certain diseases. So certainly, we should be able to either, probably add years to your life. But if not, definitely we can add life to your years, right? If you're going to die at 80 either way, one version of this, you could die hiking Mount Kilimanjaro, another one you're dying in a little chair in a nursing home. So I don't know.  The question is, even with the longevity work that people are doing, really smart guys like Sinclair and all these guys are doing all these things, and they're doing all these things with clearing senescent cells, we're doing all these things with peptides. And now I give my patients peptides for certain things. I don't know nearly as much about the longevity stuff as I'd like to. And we and we're reversing aging genetically, right? We're going in there and saying, ‘Actually, over the course of a year, with a lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of tries, a lot of modalities, really focusing on your lifestyle and doing everything. Ideally, we can actually, probably, reverse your genetic age a little bit.' Are we actually reversing age? I don't know, we made your telomeres longer. The increased the methylation on your genes, and those are markers for age, does that reverse it? We don't really know, right?  Lisa: We haven't been around long enough to work it out.  Dr Kirk: Right. It's like with omega-3s. If your omega-3s are this, then we know that certain things go this way. Well, but if we supplement your omega-3s, is that the same as you having that nutritionally. Or vitamin B3? Is that the same? We don't know. We're thinking that it probably is. And we're thinking if we're reversing the markers we know for genetic aging that's making you genetically younger. But maybe there's some totally different information in there on aging that we don't know anything about yet. That's possible, too.  I think from what I know about you, you probably agree with me. I think epigenetics is more important than genetics, anyway. You have certain genetics and you change half a dozen things about your day, and your epigenetics are totally different. If you short yourself 2 hours of sleep, you change 735 different epigenetic markers from just 2 hours. All your pro-inflammatory ones are the ones turning on, and all of your anabolic ones are the ones turning off. And again–  Lisa: That's still the biggest leverage point, isn't it?  Dr Kirk: It's still a crazy complex to think that you can decipher what 735 changes in epigenetics mean. We have some ideas of what certain things, how does all that work in synchronicity, but even though we're the smartest animal on this planet, we still have a very feeble mind. Lisa: We're still dumb.  Dr Kirk: When it comes to understanding the complexity of our bodies, we can't understand the complexity of the planet, much less our bodies. And life is just this amazingly complex thing. We don't have systems in our body. We divide the body up in systems as a way to learn it so that we can systematically learn and we can test about the learning, but the body doesn't work in systems. Lisa: I have such an issue with it, too. It's nothing like the way that the medical model breaks us all down. Dr Kirk: The reductionist model doesn't work for life. And if you think about it, most of biology is purely descriptive. All of it is, we've come up with better and better ways to test things and look at things, and then we can describe what's going on. We don't know how to manipulate it most of the time. If we do, it's really clumsy. And it's causing 500 other changes because we wanted to flip this one switch this way. Then what are the downstream effects? We don't know. We'll find out in like 30 years after 100,000 people go through this. It's really clumsy.  I don't know if can I make somebody live longer. I'd never make that claim. But can I make people look, feel, and perform better? Absolutely. I can do it all the time. And me, personally, like you're saying, I just approximate use. Their arguments, there are people out there saying, ‘Well, these hormones will cause this or that.' I'm like, ‘Okay. If high estrogen levels cause breast cancer, why don't young women get breast cancer? Older women, they're the ones who are getting breast cancer, why?' That thing with men and prostate cancer, giving them testosterone is gonna cause prostate. No, it's not. If that were true, then a 20-year-old would have prostate cancer, and a 60-year-old wouldn't, right? It's a lack of this. And I think breast cancer is a lot like prostate cancer. What we know with prosta

Lisa lived in Torrance and has her own thriving company and also worked as an associate for the Carissa Woo Photography Team. She moved to Tahoe about a year ago. In this episode, Lisa talks about how to market yourself in a new market. She booked weddings in Tahoe before she moved out there. She also talks about how she manifested her perfect day and perfect life into existence. Key points 1. How to make the decision to move markets. 2. How to get found in your new market 3. How to network with locals in your new market. Connect with Lisa To learn more about Lisa Marie https://lisamariephotographie.com/ Connect with Lisa on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lisa_marie_photographie/ Lisa is a multi-passionate personal branding and destination wedding photographer. Among other things, she is a wife to the Croatian sensation, Igor, cat mom, and cheese enthusiast. She grew up in SoCal and started her business there too...you can now find Lisa in the Northern Nevada mountains near beautiful Lake Tahoe enjoying the lake or skiing the heavenly mountain tops.

When your loved one has a serious illness, the world feels a bit darker. But you shouldn't lose hope. In this episode, I talk to Cushla Young, my lifelong friend and the co-author of Relentless. This book recounts my mother's road to recovery despite seemingly insurmountable odds. Cushla and I talk about the challenges my family and I face to cope with my mum's sudden illness. You'll also hear a little from my mum and her experiences through this ordeal. Our circumstances didn't stop me from being relentless. My goal was for my mum to recover, despite the experts saying otherwise. I wanted to extend my mother's lifespan and give her the best quality of life I can. Throughout my mother's treatment and rehabilitation, I had to step up and take control. I managed to compartmentalise things before they got out of hand.  If you want to learn about my relentless effort to defy the odds, this episode is for you. You will gain insights into how I challenged myself to keep my family together in a time of crisis.    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover my relentless journey of helping my mother recover from aneurysm. Learn important lessons about the value of health and extending your loved ones' lifespan. Gain insights from how I maintained my composure and became the backbone of my family in these difficult times.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Relentless: How a mother and daughter defied the odds Listen to other Pushing the Limits Episodes: #71: Cushla Young- Seizing the Day in Paradise #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova   Episode Highlights [04:43] Cushla's Interview with Lisa's Mum, Isobel As an educator, Isobel shares that she felt terrible when the doctors told her about what she can't do after the aneurysm. Getting a driver's license boosted Isobel's confidence. Isobel advises people who are going through a rough time to hang in there and continue to fight. To maintain her health, Isobel is currently going to the gym, taking yoga, undergoing hyperbaric treatment and attending art classes. She feels amazing about herself. [14:04] How an Aneurysm Affected Isobel and the Family After the aneurysm, Isobel went from an active individual to someone who couldn't function. Lisa shares some medical mishaps on the day her mum was rushed to the hospital. These mishaps caused delays in Isobel's surgery. It took 18 hours for Isobel to be taken into surgery because she had to be airlifted to another hospital. The fear of death coming to her mum was a big wake up call for Lisa. [20:03] Lisa's Relentless Fight for Her Mum's Life In the initial phases, Lisa was in shock and was extremely terrified. After processing the situation, she was in a ‘mission mode'. Lisa's father came up to her, saying that they needed to plan the funeral despite Isobel still being alive. When people are in crisis, you need to take control and give them jobs, so they don't panic. Over the next few weeks, Lisa was relentless in organising her family and the logistics surrounding her mum's medical needs. [26:14] Sustaining Herself Throughout This Journey Lisa shares her experience crossing the Libyan desert with an abusive boyfriend. During that extreme situation, she learned to compartmentalise. She will fall apart, but not right now when there's something that needs to be done. Lisa and her family had to stay with Isobel in the hospital around the clock for she could go any moment. Lisa also had to learn a lot about aneurysms, medicine and rehabilitation.  Amidst all this, Lisa's dad experienced heart problems, so he had to go home. [32:17] The Importance of Self-Care Lisa knows the value of exercise and having fresh air from time to time.  She made sure to take at least half an hour to an hour for herself. When you're in stressful situations, you tend to put self-care aside. However, it's vital to have systems in place to manage the stress so that you're prepared to continue fighting. [35:02] Lisa's Family Lisa's brothers were very supportive throughout the whole process. Lisa's family trusted her and what she told them to do. Her father also stepped up to help. He was relentless in caring for and supporting his wife's recovery. [38:25] Coming Home from Wellington after the Surgery Lisa was happy that her mother was stable. But she is also worried during the flight because any dropping of pressure could cause Isobel's death. Lisa sneaked into the hospital to have a friend check her mother for sleep apnea. And the results confirmed her suspicions. She had to convince the medical staff to provide her mother with a C-pap machine. Her mother could breathe properly with the machine. [44:43] Moving Lisa's Ageing Mother Lisa shared how they came up against people who insisted on having her mother placed in a facility. A social worker was against them having a caregiver. Lisa shares that she had to fight for the resources she wanted for her mother. [46:08] Caring for Isobel at Home Lisa and her family were willing and able to care for Isobel in the comforts of their home. A social worker told her that they wouldn't be able to care for her mother adequately. But Lisa remained relentless in the face of all these judgements. She and her family wouldn't go down without a fight. [50:57] The Importance of Mindset Professionals show you statistics based on their knowledge and experience. Don't discount their expertise, but don't lose hope. How you approach things is critical. You have the power to control your health and well-being. Lisa brings her mum to the gym daily for this reason. Lisa wants Isobel surrounded by athletes pushing their limits. If you want to stay alive, you need to work hard to keep fit and healthy. [1:00:28] Living and Lasting Longer Living a relentless life means taking lots of small steps and letting them accumulate.  By being relentless, you'll find more fulfilment and last longer.  Lisa shares that she wants to push degeneration out for as long as possible. There's a lot of research now that helps you live longer and better. Don't feel guilty for investing in your health.  If you want to learn more about how Lisa takes care of her body and her family, tune in to the full episode. 7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘She was really the rock of my world. And then that turned upside down very much overnight. And you go from being this adult kid to complete role reversal where you're now having to do everything for your mum.' ‘We need to set up systems and processes and understand our own bodies and how our bodies work so that we can manage the stress levels.' ‘What I want people to understand is you have to fight for the resources that you want for your loved one.' ‘I'm only ever going to listen to the ones that tell me I can do, not the ones that I tell me I can't do. They may be right. I'm not saying they're not right, but I'm gonna throw the book at this. I'm gonna do whatever it takes.' ‘They're (professionals) making educated guesses, based on the statistics of the past whatever and their experiences. And I get that. And we can't give people false hope. But we've also can't take away all hope.'   ‘The older you get, the more effort you have to put into [working hard] if you want to stay alive... If you still want to be alive and enjoy life, then you have to fight for it.' ‘If you have some self-care and take those small steps, whatever that may look like for you at the time of your life, then you are living a life that is relentless.'   About Cushla Cushla Young is a life-long friend of Lisa. They met in a running retreat they both participated in 7 to 8 years ago. She is also the co-author of Lisa's book, Relentless: How a mother and daughter defied the odds. Cushla is a teacher at the St. John Bosco School, New Plymouth. She is also a Trustee and Educational Coordinator at the Taranaki Gifted Community Trust. Having an interest in gifted education, Cushla provides intellectual and creative ways to support students with advanced and complex learning skills. The other things Cushla is passionate about are digital technology, literacy and pedagogy. Cushla currently lives in New Zealand with her family. If you want to reach out to Cushla, you can find her on Twitter.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can find comfort and hope in fighting for their loved ones' lives. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential. With your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hey everyone. And before we get on the way with the show today, I just want to remind you to check out all our great programs that we have. We have our www.runninghotcoaching.com, where you can find out all about our online run training system, we get video analysis, your customised personalised plan made specifically for you, and ongoing support and help and education around everything running. So check that out at runninghotcoaching.com.  We also have our flagship epigenetics program, which is all about optimising your genetics and making the best out of them and how to do that. Understanding what your genes are all about and how to get the right food, the right exercise, the right timings for everything. Understanding every aspect of your life, your place, your career, your social environment, all of these things, your predispositions and much more. So check that out. Go to lisatamati.com and hit the work with us button and you'll see our Peak Epigenetics program right there. Also a reminder to check out the longevity and anti-ageing supplement that I am now importing into New Zealand and Australia in conjunction with Dr Elena Seranova, a molecular biologist who is behind this product. Now this is all about the sirtuin genes basically, which are all your longevity genes. Now NMN is a precursor to something called NAD, nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. And this is an absolutely essential compound for every in every single molecule— every single cell, I should say, of your body. It's very important in regards to ATP production, and in regards to metabolic health, in regards to autophagy, in regards to sirtuin genes and upregulating those. Make sure you check out the episodes that I did with Dr. Elena Seranova and head on over to www.nmnbio.nz if you want to find more about the science of that, and why I am super excited about this product, this longevity and anti ageing product, NMN.  Right. Now, today I have something very, very different. I've turned the tables on myself and I have a very dear friend interviewing me about our book that we wrote together. Cushla Young, she's a, got a master's in English and she is the person who helped me rescue my book when I had a hell of a mess, basically. So I hope you're gonna enjoy this interview. This is all about my mum's story. It's about mindset. It's about going up against all the odds, it's about going against the establishment. So it's a lot of things we cover in this interview. So you're also going to hear from my very special mummy. She's going to come to work and tell us a little bit before she heads off on her coffee date. So now over to the show with Cushla Young and Isobel.  Well hi, everybody. Welcome to Pushing the Limits. Today I am doing something very unusual. And so hi everybody in YouTube land who's listening to this as well. I want to introduce my best friend, Cushla Young. Cushla, welcome to the show.  Cushla Young: Thank you. Lisa: For starters. Now I'll give you guys a bit of background. Cushla and I have been friends for now, a decade or so. Cushla is the lady that helped me write this book. Without her it would not exist. It wouldn't have come out before Cushla came along. The book is Relentless: How A Mother and Daughter Defied the Odds. It's my latest book, and Cushla is the magic behind that book. What we're going to be doing today is talking about what the book is about, which is the story of bringing my mum back from a mess of aneurysm, major brain damage at the age of 74, when it was against all the odds, when the medical professionals were telling me the brain damage is so bad that she's never going to recover.  Being an athlete I went, ‘No that's not happening, and we'll find a way.' This is going to be all about that story. Now I'm going to hand over the reins to Krishna to actually interview me, but I've actually got a very, very special guest sitting here next to me, who is the actual star of the show. And so Cushla is going to, she's going to take off for a coffee date. So I'll have to let her come to work first. So I'm going to pass you over to my very special mummy. There she is, Isobel. And she's gonna talk to Cushla for a second so I'll just pass over the headphones. Cushla: Hand over the reins. Lisa: You're on, Isobel.  Isobel: Okay. Cushla: Hi Isobel, morning.  Isobel: Good morning, Cushla. How are you?  Cushla: Taking off for a coffee date soon, are you? Isobel: Yes.  Cushla: So you are a guest of honor for a few minutes on this podcast. This is, I'm going to be a little bit different because I get to interview your daughter rather than her interview others today. Isobel: That's good. Cushla: So, but we'll start with you. So you have been on one heck of a journey over the last few years. Isobel: I sure have.  Cushla: So how can we start with how you're feeling now?  Isobel: I'm feeling good.  Cushla: You're looking great.  Isobel: I can go for a coffee and I can go walking on my own. And I can do almost anything.  Cushla: When Isobel left my house after a lovely glass of wine the other day, you didn't have one, but Lisa did. You drove, didn't you? You drove her home? Isobel: I did. Yes. I can drive now. That's good. Especially if Lisa's having a wine. Cushla: You get to be a mum.  Isobel: I do, I get, revert back to being mum. Yeah.  Cushla: Yeah, and that must have given you a lot of independence that you have lost for quite a few years.  Isobel: Yes. It's awesome. You don't realise how isolated people are. They haven't got— We all have a way of getting around here. It's isolating. Yeah.  Cushla: And can you tell us a bit about what you have been getting up to? I understand you've been doing some art classes with your sister. How's that going?  Isobel: Not as well as I would like to but it's, we're doing all right, you know?  Cushla: Yeah.  Isobel: I'd like the results to be a bit more spectacular. But—  Cushla: It must be nice to be creative.  Isobel: Oh it is. It's good, it does me good.  Cushla: Now, do you have much of a memory of the hospital time?  Isobel: No. Cushla: No. What's your first memory that you can recall?  Isobel: Probably where we went to a meeting with all the big guns— Lisa: At the hospital.  Isobel: At the hospital, and they wrote me off, really. Cushla: Did they? They underestimated you as well.  Isobel: I can remember saying— Lisa: I was feeling good. I was feeling good. Isobel: I was, I was feeling fine before this. Now. I'm feeling terrible. I have been demoted, I've been, lost my independence. Just because they were talking like they were, they shouldn't have done that.  Lisa: They took away all your confidence. And— Isobel: Yeah, they just. Cushla: And so your background is similar to mine. You're an educator.  Isobel: Yeah.  Cushla: Have been for decades and decades. You must understand how demotivating it is when somebody tells you what you can't do rather than what you can do. Isobel: Yeah, that's it exactly.  Cushla: So when did it change for you after that meeting? What were some of the first things that happened that gave you a bit more confidence? Lisa: Driving?  Isobel: Getting on a driver's license probably was a major breakthrough. Lisa took me down to the dam by the port and just— Lisa: It's been months. Isobel: Happier— Cushla: Round and round you. Isobel: You will, ‘now you drive.' I was totally gobsmacked. Cushla: But you did it.  Isobel: I did it.  Cushla: And I understand the doctor was utterly shocked—  Isobel: He was.  Cushla: —when you went in to get your medical for your license.  Isobel: Totally blown away. Cushla: Yeah.  Isobel: That was a blow away.  Cushla: It had probably been a while since the doctor had responded that way.  Isobel: Yeah, I think so. He was a nice doctor. So that was good. Cushla: So could you give some advice to someone who might be going through something pretty tough at the moment. What would you say to them?  Isobel: Just hang in there and— Lisa: Fight. Isobel: Fight hard. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to grit your teeth and just carry on, really. Yeah. Cushla: You're one tough lady, aren't you?  Isobel: I must be.  Cushla: Definitely.  Isobel: So that's what we did.  Cushla: Can you describe some of the routines of things that you do at the moment that keep you in such good health? Isobel: I go to the gym most days.  Lisa: Do weight training, cardio. Isobel: I do weights, I do cardio, I do walking on the treadmill, yoga. Cushla: And you still do your hyperbaric as well?  Isobel: Yes, every day at the moment. Cushla: Everyday? Wonderful. Still eat the smoothies that Lisa makes you in the mornings? Isobel: They're pretty terrible.  Cushla: But they're good for you, right?  Isobel: But they are good for me. Broccoli is not exciting, and it's sickening. Cushla: What we've noticed is, about over even the last six months, is how fit and agile and glowing that you are. That's amazing.  Isobel: It is amazing. It's amazing that you said that. I don't always feel it.  Cushla: Right.  Isobel: It's hard to know where you're at, so.  Cushla: Yeah, I think sometimes what you see is yourself reflected in others' eyes, and that's a really good indication of how far you've come.  Isobel: Yeah, and I have come a long way.  Cushla: Really. Isobel: Yeah, a really long way. Lisa: A bloody long way. All right, now you can go get coffee. Isobel: I'll pass you back to Lisa— Lisa: —and get yourself a coffee date. Cushla: Enjoy! Isobel: I will. Lisa: Thanks, Mummy.  Isobel: Okay.  Lisa: She's an absolute legend. Thanks, you have a nice coffee. We're now actually going to get into her backstory. Because, I would have done it the other way around and had her at the end of the show. But she needed to get to a coffee date. So she's just rolling. Yeah, we're rolling with the punches.  But Cushla, this— can you, I'm gonna pass the reins over to you fully. Because you know the story, you lived it with me, you helped me from the get-go pretty much. So over to you. Oh now I'm an interviewee. Cushla: Got you. We're flipping the tables, aren't we? Lisa: Yeah, we sure are. Cushla: To be interviewed for once, which is fabulous. So this has been a long journey for you and your mum and your family, and you're right. I was, I had known you for a few years before this happened. I think from my perspective, the thing that was so shocking about what originally, with the aneurysm, with your mum, was just how quick things changed overnight. I think we see Isobel now and— how old is mum?  Lisa: She's 79.  Cushla: 79. So we're going back quite a few years, and I used to often pop into the shop and see your mum, and just pop in and say hello. And she is now but she also was been a very intelligent, clear spoken woman that used to do acro-aerobics all the time, she was very fit and healthy, very independent, working still pretty much full-time. Lisa: Yeah, she was. Cushla: For somebody watching, to see overnight that she went from that, from a completely functioning full-time working adult, to just being, nothing was there. Overnight, the aneurysm took her from being completely functional to nothing. I think the shock in that first visit and I saw her quite a few weeks after the aneurysm, and you're back up to New Plymouth. You'd been in Wellington. The shock of seeing her lying there, she had aged a decade overnight.  Lisa: Yeah.  Cushla: It's hard. Hard to see. I think the shock of that must've ripped through your family quite viciously. You notice that change overnight. Lisa: It was huge. Yeah, to have growing up with mum being always the one supporting me. And the one that was there for me in all the phases of my crazy, upside down life that I've had, you know, with all my adventures supporting me with all lower— dramas and relationship breakups and divorces and business growing.  Cushla: Rooting for you at most of your races. Lisa: Oh, yes. Yeah. She'd seen, been there, done that with me, I can tell you that she had a hard life with me. She had a good life, she had exciting times with me. She was really the rock of my world. And then that turned upside down very much overnight. And, you know, you go from being this adult kid to a complete role reversal, where you're now you know, having to do everything for your mum, you are advocating, you're fighting, you grow up really quickly, even as a fully-grown adult. Obviously, I still am very much, when you've got a parent, you're still like a kid in a way to them. That is that was a biggest shocker for me I think was to be, no, now you are the one that's caring for your mum, and you are going to have to pull out all the stops to help her and it's you know, no longer about you being the selfish egotistical athlete, and there's nothing wrong with it, if you're an athlete, you have to be if you want to reach, know, do the stuff that I did. But that was a shocker. And then not, like the— we had medical research mishaps from the very get-go when mum had this aneurysm that happened early in the morning. And an ambulance driver came into the house, you know, they got her into the ambulance up to the hospital, he knew already that she was having a neurological event. And he told the doctor so much, and he just ignored it. He ignored it.  He said, ‘No, she's having a migraine, I think. So we'll just leave it for a few hours and observe her and give her some painkillers.' Well, you know, ‘Thanks very much for that.' The first six hours not knowing, and she was dying, basically. She was dying. And I knew she was in deep trouble. And I didn't know what to do. Because at that point in my life, I had no idea of anything like this. So I was never, you know, in a situation like this, I didn't know what was wrong with her. But I knew we were in trouble. And that was a very big wake up call. I actually got our mutual friend, Megan Stewart, who's a paramedic here and the head of the ambulance here. And she came up to the hospital at that time. She sort of rattled some bloody cages very quickly. And because she knew immediately what was happening, stroke or aneurysm or something neurological, migraines. She went and told this doctor what for. He then relented, and we got a CT scan. And that's when we saw the blood right throughout the brain. So that was a very big wake up call for me in a number of ways. Obviously, the shock of it happening to your mum, the fear of her dying, she's being very, very, very close to death at this point. And then realising that, you know, the medical system had not worked for us. And I'm not— you know, we're all human, and we all make mistakes and stuff. But that was a pretty big one. That was a pretty big one. Cushla: I think, in those situations, we want to trust the people that are— the medical professionals that are around us. For the most part in ED, they're an amazing group of people. But I think also there is a lot to be said for your mum. You knew what a migraine looked like, you should have before. And it's a matter of trusting yourself, isn't it, enough to then think, this isn't to your question what you're saying, and then fight as hard as you can for a different outcome. Because my understanding about aneurysm is there's a golden hour, or it's really important to be treated.  Lisa: Exactly.  Cushla: A short time.  Lisa: Surgery, that's the golden hour, they talk about getting you into surgery within the hour. It took 18 hours. 18 hours, because not only do we have the medical mishap and we also had the fact that we had to get to our Main Hospital down in Wellington, neurological. Living in a regional area, unfortunately, that's just the way it is. But we had to wait another 12 hours for the air ambulance to actually get to us, and when you're over 65, you're sort of bumped down the hierarchy, especially if you— if they don't think you're a good, you got good odds. So, you know, we— there were, at that time we had a baby that needed help, and that was more urgent than mum. They have to make those calls. I understand. I don't like it; I understand it. It's your loved one and you don't really give up. Cushla: Not at the time because you're also going through the shock of what's happening and trying to process that. In that moment, can you describe, I suppose I want to focus a little bit on what was happening to you and your body. Because I think the thing about this really, this story is that it's not just about a mum surviving an aneurysm, but it's also about you and your family and how you've managed to pull yourself back together as well.  So not just Isobel but yourself. I know that a lot of us, all of us will face a moment in our lives where we have to handle a bit of trauma.  Lisa: Yep.  Lisa: What was going on in your body and how did you cope so that you had the ability to fight for your mum? What are you doing in your mind? Lisa: So in the initial phases, Cushla, you know, you are in shock, you're out, you're terrified. But very, very quickly, oh, especially after the mishap, once I realised what had just happened and the ball's up that that was, and that it was likely going to cost your life. I just went into what I call mission mode. Like, ‘Okay, right, I am not going— I'm going to research the hell out of this. I'm going to learn everything I can. I'm going to be hypervigilant. I'm going to watch everything they do. I'm going to question everything they do. I'm going to get my family organised.' Because I had get them down to Wellington. My father was, of course, falling to pieces because it's the love of his life. He's been, you know, married to her for 55 years. He came up to me already in the ED and said, ‘We better start planning the funeral.' Because they were, you know, saying to us, she's like, unlikely to survive. And I'm like, ‘Dad, we're not even considering that. She's alive, she's still breathing, and we're gonna fight with everything we have. Here's a list of jobs to do: I want you to go ring so and so, organise this, get the boys down, my brothers down to Wellington, blah, blah, blah.' When people are in a crisis, you need to take control and give them jobs to do so that they, their, you know, their amygdala, that their permanent part of the brain doesn't go into complete full-blown panic, and which doesn't always work. And I'll relay a story a little bit later, where I did go into full blown panic. It's all very well and good to say this. But at that point in time, I was like, ‘Dad', I shook him, I grabbed him, I held him and I said, ‘No, you've got this and this job to do, we're going to do it, and follow me, dad. Follow me.' And that was basically how it was then for the next few years. Yeah. My brothers as well, they were very much, ‘What do we do?' I had no idea at the time, but I pretended like I did. Fake it till you make it. What we're doing this is how we're going to operate over the next few weeks. So it was being down on Wellington together, organising the family to be down there, all the logistics that go along with that, and your jobs and your, you know, partners and all the rest of it. And then a 24-hour watch over Mum, and being hypervigilant, explaining to the boys everything that I was learning medically, because I was like, studying forever, I was just going, going, heart out, trying to understand and get up to speed on something that I was completely not aware of prior to this, learning what an aneurysm does, what vasospasms are, what I've been looking for, what they— signs.  We were only in the neurological unit, we weren't in the ICU, which, looking back when I arrived, what the hell. When she got down to Wellington, they get straight into surgery, they started draining her blood off the brain. She started to— start to have that pressure released. But then we had to decide the next, in the next couple of days, though it had stopped bleeding at that point, but it was about to go out in time again, it could go at any moment. How do we clamp it? What do we do? Would we cut into her brain and put a physical clamp over the area? And it was a mess of aneurysm. Like we're talking a 16 millimeter huge aneurysm. We went up through the femoral artery, and we weighed up the pros and cons and you make that call. She's got a 50% chance of dying this way, she's got a 30% chance of dying that way, pretty much. So we'll take the lesser evil, but she was going to have to have two operations and in that way you know. So that was gonna be really touch and go, really touch and go. I remember them wheeling her off for that operation. I think it was on day two, through the doors, and you just don't know if it's the last time you're going to see them alive, and the whole just trying to hold your shit together. Cushla: I know that you're very good at compartmentalising parts of the— of something when it happens. What I remember you talking about when we were writing the book, was how you were able to put the jobs that needed to be done in that box. The research you were doing in this box, your family in that box, and probably, and I know this because we had phone calls and I was in touch with you at the time, your emotions and your shock and your trauma in this box. It was a matter of kind of keeping you know, all those juggling balls in the air at one time. But also, and importantly allowing you to have that emotional spot as well. And I know that you were very good at compartmentalising and giving yourself time to do that, but not letting it overtake you, letting you drop all the other balls at the time when you were dealing with the emotional side of it. I think that's really important because I know— so when Lisa and I first met, I was a bit of a Lisa Tamati fangirl, before we became friends, and I got to know you really well.  Lisa: And then realised, oh no. Cushla: Yeah. I mean, we just saw you as Wonder Woman. You know, there's tough, tough, you know, athlete. Then I got to know you, as a human being, of course, a woman, there's a vulnerable side to you. But what I think is really important at that time, an immediate trauma time, as you gave yourself time to release a bit of that stress and that trauma by leaning on your husband Haisley, by your phone calls to me. But also, like, I know that you went for some runs, went to get gym, threshed it out, you probably screamed at the ocean at one point. Do you know? That's also important, isn't it? It's not just— Lisa: If you want to sustain— we knew this was going to be a long, long, long battle. While we hoped it was going to be a long battle, a short option was not a good one. This is something that I've learned doing ultra marathons: is to— in particular in the Libyan desert crossing, where you have to read the book for the whole story. But I did an expedition across the Libyan desert with three other guys, one of them being this abusive boyfriend that I was with at the time. There was a very extreme situation that we were in, we needed two liters of water a day, etcetera. And I'm having this big domestic fight with the boyfriend right in the middle of the Libyan desert. Cushla: In the most extreme environment on the planet. Lisa: In the most extreme environment, walking 45 kilometers a day with 35-kilo backpacks and only two litres of water a day in a military bad zone, not a good time to breakup with a boyfriend of five years. And in that moment, when he left me and disappeared over the sand dunes, that was a turning point for me, and I fell apart initially. And I was like, ‘Oh, God,' started  crying in the rails. I can't afford to lose any more tears here. I've got to pull my shit together, because I cannot let the energy dissipate that at the rate of I want to actually survive. It was getting down to that sort of level of you know, you're going to survive this or not. And so I learned in that moment, really a very hard lesson in compartmentalising things in your brain. So like, ‘I'm going to fall apart, but not right now. I'm going to put that off right now because I have to focus on this, and getting through the desert and surviving.' That's been actually a really good lesson. It's never a pleasant one to actually have to instigate where you have to actually compartmentalise.  Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. 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Lisa: But in this in this situation where you're dealing with— you're having to study like really hard. And we have access now to the greatest minds on the world that come in, all those information about out there that you can study. So I was studying all the drugs that they had on, all the procedures they were doing, what is the normal plan, and what happens when you have an aneurysm, what are of the some of the dangers, or of the things that I should be looking out for, what are the signs in your body. You know, all of these types of things in the initial phase and then later on at it went into rehabilitation research and study. And so that was one aspect of it. And then we had a 24-hour clock system, much to the disgust of the people at the hospital because they didn't want us there 24 hours. They don't like that. There was no way I was leaving my mother when she could die at any minute alone. No way.  So I had massive battles with the hospital, for them to be able to allow us in. And then having to fight for that. So you're fighting on all these fronts, you're already fighting with— your mum's in deep, deep trouble, and then you're fighting against these systems. And they may have some good reasons for those systems. But there was no way I was leaving my mother alone when she could die any second. A family member had to be with her at all times. And I was very, very strict on that. We had some big blow-ups at the hospital. We got through really in the end. And we tried to be as unobtrusive as possible when we did what we were. And we picked up things that they missed, because she was on a neurological ward, they only come around a couple of hours into obviously, patients. But going back to the whole compartmentalising things. I know how to manage my body really well, and how to pace myself really well from doing ultra marathons and stuff, and expeditions. And so I knew that we were going to be in the for the long haul, I knew sleep deprivation was going to be a problem, I knew that the family dynamics were going to be a problem, that there was going to be fighting because of the stress there was it we were under, and we were all living in one motel unit. And that mum was in deep crap, we had my father to look after who was just, you know. Cushla: And he was down with you in the initial stage.  Lisa: He was here, he was; and he's very much, was a homebody. He didn't like to be out of his garden and sheep. So he was very, very stressed on that front, and of course his wife in such dire straits. He was, but he— so we managed to, had him to manage home because he started having heart problems. And so I had to eventually actually send my dad back home and actually lied to my dad that, ‘She's okay now, we've got her, Dad. She's all good.' Because I think that we're gonna lose him. I was making those sorts of decisions and just running the ship. Like you said, I know the importance of, for me, especially exercise and fresh air for my mental well-being, that if I was going to sustain it, I had to have at least half an hour to an hour every day out from this whole thing, where I just go and do a workout.  Again, all the fear, the cortisol, the adrenaline that's running through my body flat stuck and try to manage it, and making sure that she was looked after, and that time. You know, you feel guilty and everything for leaving the hospital all. But you had to do that after a few days. You know, just a couple of days, I didn't, but after that. It was— it's setting all these things in place. And we need to do that in our daily lives. We need to set up systems and processes and understand our own bodies and how our bodies work so that we can manage the stress levels and we can manage the movement that we need, the sunshine, and needs for sleep and recovery and all those aspects. And of course, in a situation like that, sleep deprivation was a massive, and there's not much you can do about that, you have to function at that level for as long as you have to.  Cushla: And I think a lot of people that are in stressful situations, whether or not it be something like what happened with your mum, or even at work or just in daily life, big stressful moments. A lot of people put the self-care to the side. And they just think, ‘Well, I'm not that— I don't have time for that,' or, ‘I shouldn't have time for that.' That's when the guilt that kicks in, and yet, it probably is one of the most important things to prioritise in terms of your day and compartmentalising your day through to handle stressful situations because it allows you to have the focus and the energy that you need and get back into the the stressful—  Lisa: Into the fight you're in. Yeah, absolutely. You need to be able to have that energy put back in. It might only be 10 minutes out in the bloody— you know, like when we, here's another situation which we'll probably get onto later with my dad. In his situation, in the hospital for 16 days, fighting for his life. It was sometimes 10 minutes in the waiting room doing press ups. That was all I could get before I went back into the battle zone if you like.   Cushla: Just to release that.  Lisa: Just to manage the cortisol. Reach, I call it discharge and recharge, and then reset. Come back into the moment. But yeah, it was a heck of a lot of lessons to be learned and then leading in a crisis situation. My brothers were amazing. They were very supportive, and they were, followed everything that I asked them to do, basically. Because I'm the study-er of the family, I'm the one that is into research and science and studies. They trusted me to do that thing. And they were like, ‘Well, you tell us what to do, we'll do it.' And that's really great. Because you've got your roles. That is, in having somebody lead the charge, so to speak, even though you don't know what you're doing, where you're going, and there's certainly no rehabilitation over the next years, because this process took years, having that person that's got that responsibility, got that, ‘This is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it, I just need you guys to do this bit and the other thing.' And my whole entire family were willing to do that. They were— my dad was just, jumping ahead in time, my dad was just amazing, how he stepped up to the mark. When he had a wife that had done everything for him pretty much. Cushla: He was, back when she came back to New Plymouth, he was cooking, and— Lisa: He was doing all the things.  Cushla: He was doing all the things, yeah.  Lisa: It was a shocker for him, but he stepped up to the mark to the best of his ability. He was the most wonderful, caring husband. He didn't give a— he didn't care that she— when she came back home for the first time, and we actually got her out of the hospital after three months. Now, I'm jumping ahead in time. But he didn't care that she had no function, basically. She was in a vegetative state who had a heartbeat. She was alive, and we were fighting. That was all he needed to know. He had his wife at home, she was alive, she's stabilised, we were fighting together, and we were on a mission. Every day he had his jobs to do and the things to do. He was just relentless in his love for her, stepping up.  Cushla: So going back to the moment where— so she's in Wellington, and you need to read the book to find out what went on in Wellington. The moment that she was transferred back to New Plymouth was a bittersweet moment, wasn't it? You were able to come home and be with Haisley and be back at home with the family and friends around that were helping. But you knew that the care that you would receive back in New Plymouth wasn't at the level that it would be in Wellington, basically just because Wellington is way more resourced. And fair enough, you can have a very small region. Taranaki here, you know, we're a little provincial spot in New Zealand. So we knew that we wouldn't get the care that you got in the big city. So talk us through how it was like to come home— Lisa: It was terrifying. I was happy for all those reasons, but at the same time, and I was happy that she's apparently stabilised. But she was in ICU for the good part of the two of the three weeks that she was in Wellington when she was in and out of coma. Once she'd gotten out of the coma, then they had to get the stent out of her heart, and she kept dropping. What happens when you take the stent out is that pressure can start rising in the brain again, and three times as they tried to take the stent out, the pressure went up. On the third time, they said, ‘Well, if it doesn't work, this time, I'm going to have to operate and put in a permanent one.' And the third time, it worked. But it only worked for the next 24 hours, and then they were like, ‘Right, she's not— her pressure's not going up. She's keeping consciousness, she's not falling back into the coma. She's good to go.' And I had researched, I knew that that was not the case, that she couldn't have— that pressure could go up over the next 70 days at any point, and if that pressure went up, it would happen very quickly, and she wouldn't— she could die.  So I knew that even though they weren't telling me that, she could still die in the next 70 days. If that happened in Wellington and the pressure started to go up, they were— they might be able to recognise that, they might be to go in and do something. They wouldn't be able to in New Plymouth. I was hypervigilant on trying to understand how I could notice if something in her consciousness was going down, right. All I could do was to understand some of the symptomatic things that she did which might exhibit if her pressure is starting to go up, because you wouldn't be able to communicate it to me, you wouldn't be able to see it, you would slowly lose more and more of a brain till it was gone basically. So that was a huge fear bringing her home, and of course putting her in an airplane with a pressure change. Yeah, I didn't know what it would do. In fact, it was nothing, but there wasn't a problem, really. But you know it this time you just— Cushla: You don't know.  Lisa: Yeah, so for the next 70 days, I'm like, hypervigilant. If I noticed something down on, I'll be like, ‘I think she's doing this and doing that.' Then they took her off the oxygen at the same time, and that was a big problem. They didn't see it as a problem that she was, ‘Her oxygen states are alright.' What they were forgetting was that she was sleeping 18, 20 hours a day. So when she was asleep, she wasn't breathing properly, and I believe she had sleep apnea. So I said to them, ‘I want a sleep apnea assessment.' They said, ‘No, she doesn't need that, why should she need that? Her oxygen stats are okay when she's awake, so why would she?' I knew about sleep apnea. So I got a friend of ours, he's actually a sleep apnea consultant, Jez Morris. I said, ‘Come into the hospital illegally, would you do that?' He said, ‘Yeah, I'll do that.' Well outside of rules actually, so not illegally, but you know.  We sneaked into the hospital at nighttime, put on these machines onto her, did an assessment overnight, because it had to be an overnight thing. We got the results, and when it came back, severe sleep apnea. Now, this is absolutely key. Like her oxygen levels were down at 70% SPO2. she was Cheyne-Stokes breathing, which is not a good thing. Probably going to be on your way out in the next couple of months. Her oxygen was so low that she was knocking off any brain cells that she has, the infections that are in her body were just going apeshit. So bacteria was exploding, and they're already known. That was actually the one of the signs that I picked up because I had done a lot of racing at altitude, and I was seeing a lot of the signs in her that I had at altitude when I had altitude sickness and things like that.  That was at first wind, because I had to convince the bloody staff that we needed to have the CPAP machine on here, and they weren't trained in CPAP machine, so they didn't want to do that. I'm telling what she needs, she's got this and you know, him being a sleep physiologist was able to convince them that okay, this is a good thing for her now. He said he'd been banging his head against the brick wall for decades, trying to get for stroke patients an assessment that is part of the process. Because very often, this happens that that part of the brain is damaged in the stroke or the aneurysm, and even in things like concussions, that you can have a change in your breathing situation. And that part of the brain that monitors that is not working properly. So it should be staying apart and perfect, and that's what I believe, and that's what he believes. So anyway, we got the CPAP machine. Initially started to have little bits of improvement, but we're already two months, three months, two and a half months or something into her time in the hospital and we're running out of time. But she's stable, nothing we can do with her, basically. She's pretty bad, and we've given paid lip service to some physio and some speech therapy and stuff, and now it's time to get you out of the system. Cushla: And I think at that point, I think they, if you saw Isobel at that moment in the hospital, you would see an old woman who was probably on her way out. You didn't see the vibrant person that we saw before the aneurysm, that was so independent, and so highly functioning. For the hospital, I think they just saw an older woman— Lisa: Another older woman.  Cushla: —another older woman, and a family that wasn't willing to accept the fact that they had an ageing mother. So there's that little bit of not understanding who she was before, and how abrupt this change was. We knew that if we could just get her back, even if it was a little bit back, then you could take her home and start working on rehab. Can you talk about how quickly they just wanted to move her into a home? Lisa: Oh yeah. And this is what happens very often when you're over 65 is the answer is get them out of our budget into someone else's budget. That means putting them into a hospital-level care facility. If you've got anything, that's the normal route that you go, and they will try and convince you of that route, at least in our situation. I can't speak for everybody obviously. We came up against a brick wall of this, especially the social worker who shall remain nameless, who just was totally against us being able to have the caregiver that I wanted, the caregiver for in the morning for an hour, and one in the evening for an hour, which is part of, they do provide the service and so on. But it costs more money, and you stay in the budget. That's the key point.  We were fighting over these resources. What I want people to understand is you have to fight for the resources that you want for your loved one. And we have limited resources, it's a fact of life. If you want to get some of those resources, and you think your loved one is worthwhile, worth it, because they've spent their entire lives paying taxes, being good citizens and have a right to have some of this, then you better be prepared for a fight because that's what you're in for. And we did have the fight. Cushla: And it was interesting that, because as a family, you were willing to bring her home and you're willing to do a lot of the care yourself. You didn't want to be taking up a resource in a care facility. You were prepared to do that yourselves, as a family, at home. So in a sense, there's a lot of money to be saved. Because I know how much you have given up and how much it costs the family to care for her at home. But that is what you wanted, and your family wanted was to just, to have her home. I remember in the book, you spoke about wanting Isobel to hear familiar sights, smells, sounds around her to aid her in her rehab. And that in having those, you felt that she was going to make more connections, neurological connections, because she was in her own home, with her own people around her, with her own sights and sounds and smells around her. Can you talk a little bit about how positive you felt that was? Lisa: Yeah, that's a huge piece of the puzzle. I had a friend's mum who actually worked in stroke rehabilitation. She really encouraged me to do that and said how important this was, and it just made total sense to me. I knew that when you're in the care of any facility, no matter how good they are, they can never provide the love and the attention that you can. Because they've got other people and you're just another patient and in— they provide a magnificent service and so on when this is absolutely necessary. But in this case, we had the willingness and the ability to do this. They said to me, the social worker said to me, ‘There is no way in hell you are going to cope with her. She's 24/7 around the clock care, two people at all times, there is no way you're going to cope with her.' I actually came and threw my books on his table one night, across the table at him. And I said, ‘Read these. This is who I am and my family are, and we are not giving up without a fight. We may go down fighting, but we're going to go down fighting, we're not going to go down and take the easy route out. It is not in our nature.'  It's a fundamental difference between a family that's a fighting family and a family that isn't. It's very much influenced by the people in power in these situations, the medical professionals, the people that are associated with all of it. And you have no confidence to stand up against all these professionals, usually. They're the ones that have been to medical school, they're the ones that have been to whatever, social work. Whatever the case may be, and you have a tendency to think, ‘Well, they know better than me.' But one thing they don't know is you. And they don't know how strong you are. They don't know the resources that you have. They don't know your mentality. And they don't know, really, they're all guessing as to what will actually happen based on their experiences. But that's what becomes partly a self-fulfilling prophecy. So when they say to you that there is no hope. No, that's their opinion that there's no hope.  I had time and time again, people telling me, ‘There is no hope, there is no hope, she's 74, her brain damage is so massive, it cannot be that she would ever.' I was like, ‘We'll see.' I'm only ever going to listen to the ones that tell me I can do, not the ones that I tell me I can't do. They may be right. I'm not saying they're not right, but I'm gonna throw the book at this. I'm gonna do whatever it takes. And it's all about attitude and effort and grinding it out then I'll take that one any day, I'll take that option. I'm a fighter. I'm a worker. And my family is too, and we're not going to go down without a fight. I've seen lots of— I saw lots of other families going through the same process, because this thing's happening every day in every hospital around the world, right? It is very much, ‘Well, statistically, this person's not a good bet. Therefore we'll just go through the standard of care, we'll be the— do the humane thing, we'll do all this— tick all the boxes or do it all right.' But the anomaly cases, the cases like mum's, why is nobody coming to say to me, why do I get— no, I'm out there telling everybody that story. That's why I've written the book is to empower other people in these types of situations, even different ones. But why is nobody asking me, ‘Well, what did you do?'  Cushla: What did you do to get there? Lisa: They've been— I'll let you know, when they mum here today, talking and walking and going off for coffee and driving up to see her friends, you would have no idea that she ever had anything.  Cushla: No.  Lisa: She's just completely normal again. But I was told that was an impossibility. How many people are told, you have a terminal illness, you are going to die of this thing? When you plant this sort of stuff, they're making educated guesses based on the statistics of the past whatever and their experiences, and I get that. We can't give people false hope, but we've also can't take away all hope. Cushla: No. That's a really powerful message, I think. I was talking to a friend of mine who is battling with cancer at the moment. She has the most amazing mindset, her mindset. So she's— you know, she was told she had three months to live, that was, I think, six months ago. Her mindset— and she's just been through some chemo and the tumors have shrunk. Her mindset, basically, is that cancer is not welcome back. It's just not. I'm going off to live my life. If I die of it, well, okay, I die of it. But in the meantime, I'm living my life, and I'm— it's not welcome back. She is charging in life and sure, she has her rough days. I really love how you said, it's— there's a responsibility for them not to give false hope, but at the same time not to take away. similar situation with my father, he has myeloma, so cancer of the blood. I think at the time, the doctors said, ‘After this treatment, you have between five and fifteen.' He immediately said, ‘I'll take the 15, thanks.' Because it puts them at that, at the point that it would have taken them to 85, and he was quite happy with it, because at the time he was 69. I love that. And we're six years down now. And I think mindset is huge—  Lisa: Oh, yeah.  Cushla: —in the way that you approach things. Because, sure, we might, I might die by being run over by a bus today. But if you don't live life thinking that things are going to get better, that you have the power to do, to have control over your health and your well-being, the way that you deal with these traumas, if you don't have that mindset—  Lisa: You're definitely not going to—  Cushla: — you're definitely not, you're going to roll up in a corner. As my friend with cancer said when she went to hospital, she's like, ‘Oh, I'm surrounded by all these sick people.' Which I loved. Because she didn't see herself in that. Lisa: That's one of the reasons I take mum to the gym every day.  Cushla: Exactly.  Lisa: I don't take her, I didn't take her, we did go to the physio program at the hospital. Don't get me started on that. But it was dreadful, it was shocking. The story's in the book, if you want to read that one, that is a real battle. But they— I like her to be surrounded by athletes going for it. Because that rubs off on her. She's not a patient, she's an athlete. She's training for her Olympics. That is the attitude we take every single day. And I make no concessions that she is 79 years old, and, ‘Oh, isn't it time for her to relax?' No, it isn't time for her to relax. It's time for her to work harder. It's time to go harder and the older you get, the more effort you have to put into, if you want to stay alive. That is the key.  When you stop wanting to be alive, then yes, sit on the couch and do nothing. Because it's what that will lead to. If you still want to be alive and enjoy life, then you have to fight for it. This goes whether you're bloody 10 years old, or 95 years old, or 105 years old. If you give into the easy way, if you go, ‘I don't feel like training today.' I don't feel like training most days. But most days I train. Because it keeps me healthy, fit, and I'm being prevented. That's what I'm all about now is being in the prevention space, and then helping people who are in dire need navigate the waters of into connecting people to the right doctors in the right studies and the right information and the right books and all of that sort of jazz. Cushla: When I was in the depths of my training for a marathon, I remember that exact conversation with a friend. She said, ‘I can't—' You kno at the end of the day, I go for a run. And she's like, ‘You've just worked a full day.' And I'm like, ‘Yeah, And I'm tired. But I'm going to go do it because you never regret it when you finish it.' At the end of that 10k, you've never thought, ‘I really shouldn't have gone for that run.' You don't. You come back thinking, ‘That was awesome.' Sure you're tired, but you were tired before you went out for the run. So you actually end up more energised.  Lisa: You mean that will energise your cortisol in—  Cushla: My muscles might be tired, but you're energised.  Lisa: And you're getting stronger. Cushla: Yeah, I think that's a really good message, that you don't regret it once you get out. It's always just those first, first few five minutes, or I always say the first 4k of any round was always more difficult than the rest. Lisa: 20 minutes is all it is.  Cushla: Yeah, it is. It's always shit.  Lisa: So same for me. And if I warm up properly, then it's only shit. If I'm in a hurry, and I run out the door, and I don't, then it's gonna be more shit, warm up quickly.  Cushla: The more experience you have with training, or with whatever it is that you're doing for self-care, understanding that the first little bit is always tough. And the more that you experience it, the more you know to expect it, then you know that you're going to get the buzz at the end and you start looking forward to that. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, I had that conversation with my brother yesterday, because I've been telling him, he's very funny. He does a lot. He's amazing, boaties, he does weight training. He's a surfer, and he surfs sometimes six hours a day, but he doesn't do cardio. And, you know, I monitor his blood, and his health and his everything. ‘You've got to do some cardio, we've got some issues here, we need some cardio please.' And he's like, ‘I hate cardio, I don't want to do  cardio.' And then we'll do five minutes, and he's like, ‘I don't want any—'  and I said, ‘It's about pushing through that barrier. It's the same as if you tell me, why aren't you going surfing anymore? And I'm like, “Oh, because it's so hard, and I don't want to get hit by the waves and get smashed around.' And he's like, ‘what are you talking about? It's awesome.”' As long as you go through that barrier. Pushed enough, long enough to get through that, and I'm having to go through that.  It's always that initial adaptation phase, that time when you're not fitting, you're not good at the surfing or the running, or the whenever, when it's shit. Let's be honest. But if you hang in there long enough, if you stay with the tension long enough, th

It's common to hear that a good diet and exercise can significantly improve our health. But health is more than that. Your thoughts and beliefs can change your genes and brain structure! 85% of our genes are malleable, and you can change them for the better with good practices.   In this episode, Dr Dawson Church joins us to talk about the benefits of meditation and EFT tapping. He shares that changing our mental states can significantly impact our bodies and even our environment. The key to happiness and calm is in our hands; we just need to invest time to achieve it.  If you want to know more about the benefits of meditation and the science behind EFT tapping, then this episode is for you.    Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover the ways you can influence and change your genes and body. Understand the benefits of meditation and achieving a flow state. Learn how to become a force of good in the world by being an emotional contagion.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-ageing and longevity with NMN Bio. More Pushing the Limits Episodes: 183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Elena Seranova 189: Increasing Your Longevity with Elena Seranova Pushing the Limits Episode with Dr Don Wood Connect with Dr Dawson: Website | Twitter | Facebook Check out these amazing books and resources from Dr Dawson Church   The Genie In Your Genes   Mind To Matter. Get it for free here!  Bliss Brain. Get it for free here! You'll also get eight meditations that accompany each chapter of the book.     The EFT Manual The Immunity Meditation: Receive Your Complimentary EFT Mini-Manual and BONUS Immunity EcoMeditation! EFT Universe Stealing Fire by Steven Kotler  Think And Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill  ABC's Catalyst - Meditation The Muscle Intelligence Podcast with Ben Pakulski: Using energy therapy to heal trauma and illness, increase productivity, up-regulate gene expression and build character traits with Dr Dawson Church   Episode Highlights [05:52] The Benefits of Meditation and Alternative Practices Dr Dawson shares how his research shows that our minds can turn thoughts and ideas into reality.  People who practice meditation become really happy.  Dr Dawson shares that he studied meditation, energy healing, and psychology.  Through this, he transformed from a miserable teen to the happy character he is today.  Dr Dawson believes that his purpose is to give the gift of happiness to others.  [10:18] Quantifying Ancient Traditions with Science  Dr Dawson shares how he was able to measure acupressure points using the galvanometer.  His findings proved the integrity of the Chinese practice of energy flows.  Energy treatments have shown astronomical results. Listen to the full episode to hear the breakthroughs in these treatments.  [13:55] How to Influence Your Genes While we can influence our genes with diet, recent research shows that you can also change it with your beliefs and attitudes.  15% of our genomes are fixed, while the remaining 85% are malleable.  In his practice, Dr Dawson learned how anxiety spikes cortisol levels, depletes the immune system, produces calcification in the brain and more.  This finding shows that it's important to manage our thoughts and beliefs.  Through this, we're able to influence our physical bodies positively.  [16:36] How EFT Tapping Addresses Trauma EFT tapping has shown its effectiveness in resetting your emotions, especially when you're feeling stressed, anxious, or angry.  Normally, your stress response creates re-traumatisation by sending high levels of signals in your body. Over time, this can shrink the brain.  When you remember a traumatic event while tapping, you can reduce the signals and break traumatic associations.  Once you break the association between your traumatic memories and fight or flight response, it stays broken.  EFT Tapping is a powerful tool. Learn how Dr Dawson uses this to help war veterans in the full episode!  [25:44] Break the Trauma Loop and Calm Down When traumatic memories and experiences haunt you, you fall into a trauma loop.  We have evolved to become highly attuned to potential dangers, even if they're just possibilities.  Our modern world doesn't help with this condition, where people say that it's hard to find time to meditate and calm down.  Dr Dawson shares that a few minutes of mediation will pay off. Not only will you be calmer physically and physiologically, but you will also perform better.  You cannot afford not to meditate.  [31:55] How to Get into the Flow State Scientists found that when someone is in flow, they have a characteristic brainwave state.  They sought to re-engineer this and train ordinary people to achieve the same state. We can achieve the flow state through mediation like the mystics do or through peak performance.  Once you hit this state repeatedly, your brain will be naturally addicted to the boost in anandamide. You get into the same state of bliss that you achieve through drugs.  There are several other benefits of meditation. Listen to the full episode to hear what it can do.  [37:10] Letting Go of Local Reality Dr Dawson shares that great figures throughout history have let go of ordinary states to achieve the extraordinary.  In meditation, you have the opportunity to let go of local reality and go to a field of consciousness.  This place is where we can deliberately change our belief systems and then affect our local reality.  When you enter the non-local reality, you can change the hardware of the brain.  Immerse yourself in meditation, and it will change your mind and brain. Then it starts to change your whole life.   [44:18] Mindset Changes on Sports and Exercise Athletes often get injured when they're not in the flow state. Athletes who have a long career tend to know how to pace themselves.  For people looking to lose weight, it's important to associate exercise with pleasure rather than pain. This strategy helps to stretch people's limits without burning out.  Learn to listen to your body and stop when it tells you to do so.  Athletes are typically expected to push themselves. It's the same principle: they need to learn to listen to their body and understand their limits.  The way we build strength and endurance is through recovery. Don't forget this part of the training.  [56:11] Be an Agent of Positive Emotional Contagion People can affect their environment. Our emotions and moods are contagious.  We don't know how far our positivity can reach. It can affect hundreds and even thousands. It can even save lives.  Become an agent of compassion and love. Not only will you help others, but you also help yourself.   Listen to the full episodes to learn about the research on spreading positivity and happiness.  [1:05:36] Living Longer On average, optimists live ten years longer than pessimists.  Negative emotions are like corrosive acids that will damage your body.  You need to work on being optimistic and healing your trauma simultaneously. Note that this is a continuous process.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘I just said, “You know, universe, what is your purpose for me in the coming year?” And the universe, I heard these words, they said, “We've given you the gift of happiness. Now, go give it to everyone else, too.” So that's really what I see myself doing now and where I came from originally and where I am today.' ‘It's [EFT] like pushing the reset button for your emotions. So you're upset, you're angry or you're stressed whatever way, then you simply tap on these points very, very quickly.' ‘You cannot afford not to meditate. The gains in productivity, problem solving ability, and creativity is so enormous that if you don't spend that hour or that half hour, you are missing out on your biggest single leverage point for success in your life.' ‘In meditation for a little while, you let go of local reality, and you simply identify with the field of consciousness that is the cosmos. There's this huge information field in which we swim in it. We're like fish looking for water when we're looking for God or spirituality.' ‘I wrote in my journal, “My heart is just burning with love and bursting with gratitude”. Because you come down in the states of such ecstasy and the rest of the world in your life, and it is a world of magic. You then create that magic all around you.' ‘Athletes, first of all, when they're in the zone, when they're in flow, they injure themselves less and their performance goes up. It's that old Yerkes-Dodson law, currently referred to a little bit of stress is fine.' ‘Jesus said, “Love your enemies,” to go to them that hate you. Yeah, very good advice, even though it's 2,000 years old. And when you do this, you're producing emotional contagion around you. You have no idea how far it's going.'   About Dr Dawson Church Dr Dawson Church is a leading health writer and researcher whose principal work includes The Genie In Your Genes, Mind To Matter and Bliss Brain. His research linked the connection of consciousness, emotion and gene expression. Moreover, he has looked into the science of peak mental states, flow states and happiness.  With his research, Dr Dawson conducted clinical trials and founded The Institute for Integrative Healthcare to promote groundbreaking new treatments. To date, his largest program is the Veterans Stress Projects which has offered free treatment to over 20,000 veterans with PTSD.     Dr Dawson further shares his research through EFT Universe, one of the largest alternative medicine websites. In addition, he is the science columnist for Unity magazine and has written blog posts for the Huffington Post.   In his undergraduate and graduate courses at Baylor University, Dr Dawson was the first student to graduate from the University Scholar's program in 1979. He earned his doctorate from the Integrative Healthcare at Holos University under the famed neurosurgeon Norman Shealy, MD, PhD, the American Holistic Medical Association founder.  Are you interested to know more about Dr Dawson's work? Check out his website and EFT Universe.  You can also reach Dr Dawson on Twitter and Facebook.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they learn the benefits of meditation and the science behind EFT tapping. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa.   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Your host, Lisa Tamati, here with you and today I have another very, very special guest for you that is perhaps going to change your life. A really very interesting man. Dr Dawson Church, PhD,  who is an award winning science writer with three bestselling books to his credit. The Genie in Your Genes was the first book to demonstrate that emotions drive gene expression. So that's all-around epigenetics, epigenetics and how your emotions can actually change the way your genes are expressing. The second book Mind to Matter, which is really something that you must read, shows that the brain creates much of what we think of as objective reality. And his third book, Bliss Brain demonstrates that peak mental states rapidly remodel the brain for happiness.  Now, Dawson has conducted dozens of clinical trials and founded the National Institute for Integrative Healthcare to promote ground-breaking new treatments. Its largest program, the Veteran Stress Project has offered over free treatment to over 20,000 veterans who are suffering from PTSD. All for love, no money involved, an absolute amazing project. Dawson now shares how to apply these health and performance breakthroughs through his EFT universe. It was just an absolutely fascinating conversation with him. I'm very, very interested always in neuroplasticity because I was told, with my mum story, as you all know, that there was no hope that her brain would not be able to remodel and not be able to learn again and that is so far from the truth. In his new book, A Bliss Brain, award winning science writer Dawson Church focuses on the positive and negative mood and negative thinking and how it's associated with activation of brain regions like the prefrontal cortex - the state of yourself, and positive emotions such as altruism and compassion.  He blends cutting edge neuroscience with the stories of people who've had first-hand experience or brain change. And Bliss Brain really examines the effects of emotional states on brain structure. Suffice to say, you have to listen to this episode. I think if you're struggling with anxiety, struggling with stress, feeling the effects of ongoing long-term stress on your body and with illnesses and sicknesses and depression and all of these things that hamper just so many of us, so many of the people that I work with, and certainly I struggle with it on occasion, as well, then this is a book for you.  Dr. Dawson really emanates happiness and joy. But that wasn't always the case, he was someone who had suffered from depression quite badly in his early years. And this is what sent him down this great path. He manages to marry the science with the traditional things like Chinese medicine and Meridians and energy medicine. He's been able to quantify it so that people like me who love science in general open minded sceptics, I like to call myself, can actually understand why these things work. And that's really, really important.  Before we head over to Dr. Dawson. I just like to remind you, we have now our Patron membership for the podcast. If you'd like to get involved with the podcast, if you'd like to support what we do here at Pushing the Limits. We've been doing it now for five and a half years, and near on 200 episodes. I can tell you, into each episode goes a heck of a lot of work and a lot of research, and a lot of book reading, a lot of time. And we really need — to keep this on air — we really need your help. So if you'd like to come and support us and get a whole lot of extra member benefits, then head on over to patron.lisatamati.com, that's patron.lisatamati.com. You can join us in our tribe there. I would really, really appreciate you doing that. And as always, please give us a rating and review for the show because that really does help us as well and share it with your family and friends if you get benefit from us. I'd also love to hear from you, if you've got a question about one of the guests. If you want to dive deeper into one of the topics, please reach out to me, support@lisatamati.com.  I'd like to remind you too, that we also have our epigenetics program, which is our flagship program that we have that looks at your genes and how to optimise your genes, and how to understand the nuance of what foods, what times of the day, what types of exercise, what are your dominant hormones, what are your dominant neurotransmitters and how that plays out in your life. So if you'd like to join us for that, please head over to lisatamati.com and go under the Work With Us button and you'll see all the information there.  Now over to Dr. Dawson Church. Lisa: Hi everyone, and welcome to Pushing the Limits. I'm super excited to have you here with me today. I have an absolute legend, a man who has done so much research and so much good in the world, Dr. Dawson Church with me. Welcome to the show. Dawson, it's really, really exciting to have you with us today. Thanks for taking the time.  Dr. Dawson Church: For me, too, Lisa. We have had such fun now and the next hour. We just had off the air, this would be a fabulous time for you and me and everyone else combined. Lisa: Exactly. We already had a couple of really good connections. That's fantastic.  So, Dawson, well, you are an incredible man with a number of books. You have your research, you're an expert on the brain and the mind and body connection. Can you give us a little bit of background about how did you get into the space and what you've been studying? I mean, it's a big question, but we'll start there anyway. Dr. Dawson: Well, let's start right in the middle. I worked at a book about five years ago called Mind to Matter. It was really off the cuff project — I was interviewing scientists, I was trying to trace all of the scientific pieces, the links, the chain between having a thought and a thing. And I thought, “Well, I'll find some links to the chain, not others.” But I found all of them. It was so interesting to see how our thoughts literally become things, how our brains function like transducers, from the universal field of information and we then manifest those things all around us. While I was doing that I got into —  so I've been meditating everyday for like 20 years plus — but I own some really esoteric forums, our meditation practice by masters who've done it like 10,000 hours. By the end, I find myself getting really, really, really, really happy. I was already a really happy person. But at the end, I had to find myself getting super happy, no matter what the circumstances. But we had to look at all why people who do certain styles of meditation gets so happy. That's why I wrote the book, Bliss Brain. I began the process, 50 years before that, as a teenager, when I was so toxically depressed and anxious and miserable. I was suicidal, I mean, I want to just kill myself when I was 12, 13, 14 years old. And I looked into my own eyes, walked past a full-length mirror one day when I was 15, looked into my own eyes, and I said to myself, those are the saddest eyes I've ever seen. I realised I was so messed up inside. So, I went to live on a spiritual community for many years. I learned meditation, learned energy healing, studied psychology. Wanted to figure out how I could make myself happier, and got a little bit happier over the years. And then when I began to meditate every single day, I didn't have to use energy therapies like EFT tapping, suddenly I got a lot happier. After Mind to Matter, doing these esoteric meditations, got super happy, I want to then just tell it to the world. So I had this epiphany. But I don't want to retreat every New Year's Eve and spend about two, three weeks just really getting quiet meditating, asking the universe, “What are my marching orders for the coming year?”  I was walking the labyrinth with a group of about 40 people at a meditation centre in New Year's, couple of years ago. I stood at the centre of the labyrinth at the stroke of midnight. And I just said, “Universe, what is your purpose for me in the coming year?” And the universe, I heard these words, they said, “We've given you the gift of happiness. Now, go give it to everyone else, too.” So that's really what I see myself doing now and where I came from originally and where I am today. Lisa: Oh, wow, that is beautifully put in. So, Bliss Brain because you've written a number of books. Mind to Matter was the last one and then Bliss Brain is this one. And when people are listening to this, a lot of people will think, “Well, yes.” But is this, especially a lot of the people that are scientifically, believe in the science and they want evidence. What I found so interesting with your work is that you've met managed to marry the science, the quantified effects of energy medicine, of meditation, of pressure points, of EFT, all of these things is energy, things and actually quantified those with science in very rigorous-based, evidence-based, which for me is always a fascinating thing. Because I'm very much an open minded person, but I like to have that rigor, that sceptical mind, that prefrontal cortex that often jumps in and goes, “But is this real?” And you said, on the cusp between, being open minded and being scientific and you've seem to marry these two, just beautifully in your work and being able to quantify some of the ancient traditions the Chinese medicine, the Meridians, these types of things that have been known for thousands of years, but are now actually being shown to be correct and with science. Can you tell us about that?  Dr. Dawson: What's amazing is if you're taking a pedal instrument, handheld instrument, called the galvanometer. It's battery powered, it picks up the electrical resistance on your skin. And so, at my live workshops, I will run this over people's skin, and the little muscle device makes beeping sound whenever it hits an acupuncture point. And it's because those points are very, very high conductance, low resistance. You'll run this little deal over the person's face, nothing's happening, it'll hit an acupuncture point like this over here is on the bladder meridian, this point over here, and suddenly the machine goes crazy and starts beeping and flashing only in this tiny point about a millimetre in diameter, and no other surrounding skin. That's the exact point shown in a 2400-year-old Chinese scroll.  These ancients knew about all these points, energy flows, the chakras, the meridians, and so on. Now, we have instrumentation to measure them. At least the cool thing about the measurement process is, as we're measuring the effects of energy therapies, energy treatments, we're finding that as we quantify them, the effects aren't tiny. They aren't 3%, 5%. Sometimes they're astronomical. Like for example, the EFT. So in meta-analysis, meta-analys-s gathered together 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 studies into a bundle. And then, they extract all the information on a scale of how effective a therapy is. An effective therapy gets a score of two. A really effective therapy gets a score of five, and an extremely effective therapy is a score of eight. So two, five, eight, those are the three points in a meta-analysis that tells you whether a therapy has some effect or a huge effect.  In studies in meta-analysis of EFT tapping for anxiety on that 2-5-8 scale, the effect of EFT is 12. It's off the odds, off the scale, off the chart. Same thing for depression, same thing for PTSD. So now that we're quantifying these therapies, meditation, EFT, other kinds of therapies, we're applying some of them, have incredible results at the level of the genome, proteins, proteins expression, enzymes, all kinds of processes in our bodies. Lisa: Wow, that is, okay, because you've written a book called The Genie in Your Genes. It was a marvellous title because I studied epigenetics and genetics. I know that you collaborated on the book with Dr. Bruce Lipton. I was like that's one of my favourite books of all time, and actually got me down this rabbit hole of epigenetics. And so, I've looked at epigenetics in relation to the food and the nutrition and the social environment and your neurotransmitters and these sorts of things. But when I heard you talking about how it affects, like meditation — you're able to see, I think it was 72 genes or something, where it actually changes the expression of those genes in real time, when you're doing these meditations. And these were areas, I mean you know the areas better than me, perhaps you can talk about it. Because I think a lot of people don't understand that we have a DNA that we've inherited from mum and dad, that's our code if you like. But all throughout life and throughout every day and with everything that we do, we're turning genes on and off for the want of a better description, up regulating or down regulating certain genes with our environment. So what sort of things can we influence through meditation and through EFT, and so on? Dr. Dawson: That is the key question to ask me, Lisa. We can influence our gene expression with things like diet. You eat certain foods and eat really healthy foods is to turn on certain genes and result and certain processes in your body. And so, the early after they studied and study, 1999, 2002, were all about introducing dietary factors usually in experimental subjects of rats, mice, and then seeing how that affected their gene expression. But what I am much more interested in than things like drugs and external factors like food, is I am super interested in what we can do with this thing behind our bars over here and our beliefs and our attitudes and our energy. It turns out, I mean, that's funny you just mentioned, by done by remarkable, insight-filled therapist called Beth Maharaj. And she found that in an EFT session, a one hour EFT session of psychotherapy using EFT acupuncture tapping, all those acupuncture points, 72 genes were changed. And again, about 15% of our genome is fixed, like I am two metres tall, I have grey eyes and brown hair, not very much of that anymore, and I just have certain physical characteristics that are what they are. Those are fixed genes, but those are only about 15% of the genome. The other 85% is changed. When I have a negative thought, I start producing cortisol, I send a signal down to the medulla on my adrenal glands, my adrenal gland starts producing cortisol, and adrenaline. Adrenaline is your fast-acting, stress hormone; cortisol is your slow acting, but still, it hasn't two minutes and two minutes is turning everything on and off all kinds of other processes off in your body.  And so I'm doing that with my mind alone. If I'm having high cortisol day after day because I'm worried, because I'm stressed, because I'm anxious. Now, what I'm doing is I'm driving my body into this fight or flight state over and over and over again, chronic stress. It's depleting everything else, my body, my immune system, it results in muscular wasting. It literally, over time, produces calcification of the brain's learning memory centres. And you want a lot of calcium in your teeth, a lot of calcium in your bones. You do not want calcium in your brain, but it does. It literally deposits calcium in your brain's memory centres. So that is the effect epigenetically of our thoughts and our beliefs. So, it's so important that we take control of this, like there's a saying in the biology of belief that has positively positive thoughts releasing the ones going our way as having a dramatic effect on our physical bodies. Lisa: And this is like, because I've seen those scans where you have the shrunken brain that's been exposed to a lot of stress. The hippocampus shrinks and the prefrontal cortex and then you have the healthy brain that's nice and plump on the other side, if you like. It is a very good visual because this is very much like we tend to think, ‘Well, yes, I'm stressed and but that's neither here nor there, toughen up and get on with it' type of attitude. I think that this, I think we need to distinguish between short term hermetic stressors, which are good for us - the things like going in the sauna, or going into cold water or going for a run and exercise and things like that, that are slightly outside the comfort zone. But not these long-term or even medium-term stressors that are going on day for day and week upon week, and month upon month. Those are the ones that really, when you are affecting the genes on a daily basis and your cortisol, and your adrenaline are just pumping all the time.  And this is something like with my genetic makeup, I have a deficiency in receptors of dopamine, so I'm constantly after dopamine. I'm always chasing the source that I can never reach, right? And I have a lot of adrenaline and I was exposed to a lot of testosterone in the womb. So I have that personality that take action, risk taking, jumping, still playing, no strategy, that type of a personality. And these things really affect us.  However, I can take control of that through practice. I can do things that can actually help me control my innate biology if you like. So, how can people, I wanted to ask, because I think a lot of people won't know what EFT is, per se. Would you explain what that particular type of energy work is?  Dr. Dawson: EFT is very popular. It's used by over 20 million people worldwide. It's grown purely by word of mouth, there is no drug company, there is no advertising campaign, people study each other on EFT. It is often called tapping because you simply tap like this on acupuncture points. There are about 13 W's, commonly they're linked to the 13 meridians of the body. It's amazing. I'm working on a video now where I have to describe EFT in two minutes. And it's like the body's reset switch. A therapist used that in a paper, in a peer-reviewed journal recently. It's like pushing the reset button for your emotions. So if you're upset, you're angry or you're stressed whatever way, then you simply tap on these points very, very quickly and it resets you.  So, there are several of these points. While you are thinking about the bad stuff in your life, you combine that reflection of ruminating on the stuff that bothers you with the tapping. And if you ruminate on the bad stuff, what happens normally, if you're just thinking about the bad stuff, is you're sending a signal through those neural bundles and they're getting bigger and bigger and faster. That's what we call re-traumatisation. That's when you re-traumatise yourself and we find over time, that shrinks the brain; the brains of people who are traumatised as children are on average 8% smaller than those who weren't traumatised as children. Traumatic stress is, it isn't psychological, it's physiological. So that's what you're doing if you're retraumatising yourself.  If you remember that bad thing at the same time you tap, then what we see in MRI EFT studies is that the emotional midbrain gets all upset, it's all aroused as a result of thinking about the bad things. When you start tapping, all that arousal just goes down. For example, one veteran I was working with, because we work with over 20,000 veterans, giving them free treatment free of charge. What one veteran was really bothered by a memory when he was in Iraq, he was a medic. And right in the beginning of his tour of duty, one of his friends was shot. And so, he had to deal with all the gruesomeness of that friend's death. One of the things he had to do was he had to clean the uniform of his dead friend to send back to his mum and dad back in the US. Cleaning the human remains and tissue out of the uniform was tremendously triggering for him. He remembers this event, he was cleaning them out in the medic's hut. And then he'd have to run outside to take a breath of fresh air because the smell was so bad that he'd run back in a little more cleaning, run back out again. We tapped on this terrible traumatic memory. He just then had this complete sense of relaxation. He said, ‘I'm so glad I was the person who got to clean that uniform because it was my way of honouring my friend'. And as his emotional midbrain calmed down, his story changed to where it was no longer one of tragedy, but one of honouring and one of love and one affection with his friend, and you do this act of service. So if he shifts brains function that way, and it shifts it in just a few seconds like that. There's no therapy, there's no elaborate attempt to understand how you are the way you are, you just tap while you're remembering the bad stuff, while all of those new neural pathways are fully engaged, that then calms the brain down immediately. And then I met this young man again, I saw him again, about three months later, talked about the uniform, talked about his dead friend, he was still totally calm about it. And we find in long-term studies, that once you break the association in the brain between that traumatic memory and going into fight or flight, the association stays broken, and people find later on down the road. Lisa: That is absolutely amazing because I think, the longer we all live, we all end up with traumatic, hopefully not as horrific experiences as that.  Are you aware I had last week on the show Dr. Don Wood, who I'd love to introduce you actually to. He is also a trauma expert who works with vets and PTSD and everything, addiction and so on. He has a four-hour program that he takes people into the, out of beta into alpha brainwave states and takes that high definition sort of movie that's playing in people's heads around this event or events. And he says, as a description, puts it into black and white, and it's no longer triggering. So probably a different direction to get to a similar result. But you think we can do this actually, in minutes with EFT, where you can actually take away the power of that memory. Because I mean, I've been through, unfortunately, my listeners know, I lost my dad, just seven months ago, eight months ago. It was a very traumatic event and process that we went through. The intruding memories, the recurrent nightmares, all of the horror that surrounds that event is very powerful, how much it drains your daily life and your energy. I've found, since that event, I've been doing various things, but it's still very, very raw and very real to me. You are triggered a hundred times a day, and it's just draining your power to be able to work fully in the world, and to be the best version of you that you can be. I sort of know that and I'm trying to work out ways. So this is definitely one that I'm going to jump into. Dr. Dawson: Sorry, you lost your dad and what you'll find is that you don't have to let go at the normal sense. In fact, we encourage people to really grieve, really get into their feelings, that and then do the tapping as well. What happens is you process them very quickly. So we aren't telling these veteran, ‘Don't think about the bad thing. Don't think about the death. Don't think about all the trauma'. We say, ‘Do think about it, but tap while you're doing it'. And then that breaks the association in the brain between that traumatic memory and going into that stress response.  So I really encourage you to do that because we've seen so many people do this now. We work with examples, with kids who lost their parents in the Rwandan genocide. Many of them, still 25 years later, have severe PTSD. We work with victims of school shootings in the US and various places. And again, mothers and fathers who've lost their kids in school shootings. We work with them successfully with EFT. So it's not like we're just working on superficial stuff, but it is that we're trying to work on what you're being worried about in the report you have to turn it into your boss next week, and it also works on severe psychological trauma. Lisa: This is so exciting. And it is like resetting the brain. I mean, Dr. Woods mentions that it's sort of like a error glitch, and you're just going round and round and you can't get out of this sort of pattern of things.  Dr. Dawson: Yes. The trauma loop, we call it the trauma loop. The trauma loop, it's literally a loop between the thymus, thalamus, hypothalamus, the hippocampus, the amygdala in the centre of the brain. What's supposed to be happening is that input associated be referred to the prefrontal cortex and other regions to moderate emotions. And it isn't; it's stuck in an emotional midbrain, looping and looping and looping. Here's the thing is, you can't talk yourself out of it. Like I was worried about a situation at work a few weeks ago, and I would say to myself, ‘It's time to meditate now. It's 6am in the morning, I'm meditating. I will not think about that thing at work'. Well, of course, within nervous sighs, obsessed with a theory, I say that ‘Dawson, I'm going to let that go. It's meditation time now. I'm not thinking about thing at work, I'm going to return my mind to the meditative state'. Now, the thing at work, we cannot talk ourselves out of it, our conscious minds hard, because our brains didn't evolve that way. Our brains evolved to be extremely attuned to the tiger in the grass, or the remotest possibility, the tiger in the grass. And if you had an ancestor who took her mind off the potential threat to focus on smelling the flowers — Lisa: You wouldn't be here. So it makes sense that we have this hyper vigilance. When you've got a PTSD situation going on, you're really hyper vigilant, and you're in this constant state. But it is even all the little things, like in preparation for this interview yesterday, I was just so into researching and stuff. And then all night, my brains just going about Dr. Dawson and what he's doing. Like at three o'clock in the morning, I had to get up and read, keep reading one of your books because it was just, it's not leaving my brain. And then I did my breathing exercises, I did my meditation and eventually went back to sleep. So, you gave me a bit of a sleepless night last night. Dr. Dawson: I'm so sorry about that.  Lisa: But in a good way.  Dr. Dawson: At least you're reading something good. Lisa: Yeah, well  in a good way, because I was excited about all this stuff. I think it's very powerful. As a health coach, and I work with people on a daily basis. Probably the first thing that people come to me with is depression and anxiety. And then all the health problems and in follow on from that, and that seems to be what so many people are dealing with on an absolute day to day basis. In our modern world, I think that a lot of these things, not that our ancestors didn't have stressors, because they obviously did. But we have perhaps, a hundred tigers coming at us a day in the form of grumpy emails from our bosses or whatever. The amount we have to process in a day for many of us, especially people working on computers and all that sort of stuff with a thousand things coming at you all the time. And it can feel like and so, often, I say when I say to people, ‘You need to do some meditation, and you need to calm the mind. You need to get out in nature'. But they go, ‘I haven't got time. I haven't got time. I'm working 17 hours a day, and I'm a mom of three, how the hell am I going to find time to meditate?' What's your answer to that?  Dr. Dawson: Actually, you don't have time to meditate. In one piece of research, I talked about several of these in my book, Bliss Brain. One piece of research done by really forward thinking US agency called the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, they've been at the forefront of all kinds of parts of the human potential movement for the last 50 years. They did a study of complex decision-making. Now, this isn't whether I should have grilled cheese or macaroni for lunch, this is when you have to do a scenario that's meant to solve global warming, or reduce the deficit or solve racial violence in a city. It's the really complicated problems. What they found was that when you're in a kind of flow state, generated by meditation, that people are 490 times better, percent better at solving complex problems; five times is good. Another study by the McKinsey Consulting Group found a 10 year study of high performance executives found that they are five times as productive when they're in these flow states. We're measuring flow now as people meditate, we're finding the same thing. So that even 15 minutes, 20 minutes spent at the end of the day will literally pay dividends. Another series of studies done by Harvard University found that if you do that for only an hour, meditate for an hour, you are more productive and more creative for 48 hours in the future. So you cannot afford not to meditate. The gains in productivity, problem solving ability and creativity are so enormous that if you don't spend that hour or that half hour, you are missing out on your biggest single leverage point for success in your life.  Lisa: Well, that's a really good argument for it. Have you read the book, we're talking about Steven Kotler, have you read Stealing Fire? Dr. Dawson: I love Stealing Fire, I've seen Steven Kotler several times on that and I use — and I have five books, in Bliss Brain and the acknowledgments say, ‘This book, Bliss Brain, was based, there five people really influenced me'. As Steven Kotler's Stealing Fire was one of those five.  Lisa: His book really influenced me, too. It was like, ‘Wow, this is incredible stuff, understanding how to get into the flow state'. As an athlete and my background as a ultra-endurance athlete, we did stupid distances. I would sometimes get into that flow state, and I still can't do it at will, unfortunately. Maybe I need to meditate more. But the performance that you could bring when you were in that state was far beyond what you normally could bring, and understanding how to tap into that on an actual day to day basis. I find it, too, in a previous life, I was a jeweller as well, so I was a goldsmith in head shops, retail shops. And that I would get into the flow state making jewellery when I was creative, now in painting. So when I get time, do those types of things like painting and making something, do they qualify as meditation? I mean, what actually qualifies as meditation because a lot of people seem to think you have to be sitting on your floor or with your legs crossed and humming or something, doing a chant. Is that the only way to meditate? Dr. Dawson: After World War II, there was a British engineer who worked on the radar system in the defence of Britain and his name is Maxwell Cade. And he put together a simple EG, and they had hook up spiritual masters. This EG, he was reading the five basic brainwaves — now, we know there are more than that — but he was reading the simple brainwaves. What he discovered is that he took up a Pentecostal faith healer, or a Taoist healer from China, or he hooked up a Confucian or in like a Buddhist or a Hindu or kabbalistic Jewish mystic. What he found was that even though their religious backgrounds and religious practices were totally different, they all have the same brainwave pattern. So that was the pattern of the mystics, we now knew what it was.  I talked about this in Bliss Brain,  this void of discovery, as Maxwell Cade was doing this in the 50s and 60s. And then he had a student, at a wise he had hooked out. They said, ‘Well, let's hook up other people. Let's hook up Louie Armstrong. Let's look up jazz musicians in flow'. And they found same bliss brain pattern in them. They said, ‘Well, let's hook up some high performing executives and business people who are at their peaks and scientists'. So they found that regardless of the profession, whether in flow, they all have this characteristic brainwave state. The next thing that we had to realise over the last 20 years of MRI research is, now this is crucial, we used to think that it was just one of those happy accidents. There are only a few Louis Armstrong's. There are only a few Hussein Bolts. There only are a few Swami Vivekananda's. We used to think these were special people. Once we discovered the brainwave state, some smart scientists then said, ‘Let's reverse engineer this. Let's train ordinary people to attain the same brainwave state'. And lo and behold, bliss brain, they could. We now like — I do seven, eight retreats sometimes. I'm doing virtual retreats now, but we do live retreats, usually once or twice a year. And the first day, it's going to take people, maybe we can induce that state, usually within 30 minutes. By the end of the retreat, start four minutes, they have learned to hit the state of a 10,000-hour meditation master. And they're doing it in under four minutes at the end by the end of the retreat.  So they're trainable now that we're reverse engineering them. And so one state, one way into the flow state is through meditation like the mystics do. The second way is through peak performance. Either way, you can get to that same state and be ignited by flow triggers that put you into that state, and they're reliable. They put you in that state every single time. And once you hit that state, Lisa, over and over and over again, the cool thing in bliss brain is all about addiction. For example, the one molecule that you generate in your brain in these deep states is called anandamide. It has the same chemical structure as THC, the active molecule in marijuana, docks the same receptor sites in your brain.  So you're flooding what are called your endocannabinoid receptors in your body and your brain, with natural THC, just generated by your own brain. It's a very big boost of serotonin. You're mentioning dopamine earlier, and I'm going to send you a meditation that, I've just been playing with this recently. This isn't available to the public and won't be for about two years. But Mind Valley is working on a huge new program, and we're training people in this one meditation. They literally feel the rush of dopamine they get because dopamine is the same reward system as engaged by cocaine and heroin. So they're sitting there doing this meditation. They're getting serotonin, which is the same as suicide and magic mushrooms. Same Lego structure, they're getting anandamide, THC. They're getting the same molecules that are getting in ayahuasca cocaine and heroin and alcohol, all in one meditation. And so what we're now having to do, it's so crazy, we're bringing people to these ecstatic states, when you read Rumi and St. Catherine of Sienna. I mean, these people were in absolute bliss. Essentially their brains were full of these endogenous drugs. And so, we're actually learning to generate these in people's brains. What we now have to do at the end of my meditations is you have to spend a few minutes, talk people down, talking them down off this high. They are so spaced out, they can't drive a car, they open their eyes off meditation, they don't know what planet we're on. So we spend some time doing some orienting. ‘By the way, your name is what's the name again? What time of day, is it? Which country do you live in? What's your job?' So we have to help them back into reality because they get so far out there, in just a few minutes of meditation. We're now able to do that. Lisa: Without any extraneous sort of, chemicals and things that can damage your impulse?  Dr. Dawson: No, none whatsoever.  Lisa: I have to ask this — because and this maybe outside the wheelhouse a little bit — when you're in those sorts of states, do you think you can connect? Is there a spiritual, wouldn't you know? Do you believe that there's a spiritual dimension to what's on the other side, when people pass away, when we die? Is that what the mystics and some of the spiritual healers are tapping into something higher? I mean, I know we probably can't measure this, although I've just read some books on NDEs like near death experiences and the scientific rigor that a couple of these amazing scientists have spent years studying. What's your take, just your personal take on these higher states and being able to connect perhaps, to something beyond us? Dr. Dawson: Albert Einstein wrote in the 1930s, he wrote that also the big discoveries have been made in that altered state of oneness with the universe. In chapter 15 of his book Think and Grow Rich, people think that Napoleon Hill's book from the 1930s Think and Grow Rich is about money, but it's actually about spirituality. It's about letting go. Napoleon Hill says, ‘I let go of my ordinary states, I enter an altered reality. And there I commune with St. Francis of Assisi, and Thomas Edison, and Napoleon Bonaparte, and all these great figures from the past. And that's where I download all of my answers, these questions from'. So throughout history, people have been letting go of — what I call, now in my books, I call this local reality and non-local reality. And so in meditation, for a little while, you let go of local reality, and you simply identify with the field of consciousness that is the cosmos. There's this huge information field in which we swim in it. We're like fish looking for water. When we're looking for God or spirituality, we're like the fish looking for water. We're swimming in consciousness, and our brains are not generating consciousness. Our brains are transceivers of consciousness from this universal field. They then translate this universal appeal information into what we think of as local reality. But we're making up or making it up and we change our minds. When we shift our belief systems, when we orient ourselves deliberately to non-local reality, our local reality shifts dramatically and super quickly. Our brain shift, Lisa, in one of the examples I give in Mind to Matter, I talk about a TV reporter called Graham Phillips, who has a show called Catalyst. He went on an eight-week meditation retreat. They took his whole TV crew into a lab. They did a whole work up on his brain, his body. They use the high resolution MRI to measure the volume of neurons in each part of his brain. He then learned to meditate over the next eight weeks, and they brought him back to the lab after eight weeks ran the MRI scans again and the piece of his brain that is responsible for coordinating emotional regulation across different brain regions called the dentate gyrus — it's really tiny, it's about the size of a little fingernail, but it's right in the centre of your brain. It has tentacles going all over the brain and helps regulate being upset, being irritable, being angry, being annoyed, being stressed. That, the hardware of his dentate gyrus grew 22.8% in eight weeks. When you enter a non-local reality, it's changing the hardware of your brain, and it's not taking 10,000 hours, it's doing it in just a few hours. And he then started to see very different as your transceiver, transducer changes, then it is very different results outside of yourself.  So we are pure consciousness, we happen to be the body for a little while. We won't have a body forever. What you can do is every morning meditation. You can simply let go of local reality, you become one with non-local reality. The other cool thing there is when you come down from that space, Lisa, you are so full of love. I mean, I just cry when I come down. I walked on the beach the other day after meditation, I was just weeping with gratitude. I wrote in my journal, ‘My heart is just burning with love and bursting with gratitude'. Because you come down in the states of such ecstasy and the rest of the world in your life, and it is a world of magic. You then create that magic all around you. That's how I write my books. That's how I live my life, how I do my marriage and children and friends and everything. Well, I just can't tell you how let's call this brain. It isn't like I'm feeling a little bit of hay brain, it is an ecstatic brain. I mean, in this exciting state, and becomes your new normal. Every day, it starts to change your physical brain. It starts to change the hardware of your brain, and then that starts to change your entire life. Lisa: That sounds like a piece of something that I want. And I think, everybody who is listening will be like, ‘I want what that guy's got'. Because you emanate this. I've listened to many of your lectures and your talks and your podcasts and stuff, and you emanate this beautifulness — for want of a better description — it just seems to pour out of you. That is obviously the work that you've done. What I find, I was listening on Ben Pakulski, my amazing man. You're on his podcast, that was one of the ones that I listened to. He was talking about, as an athlete, and I've had an athletic background. As a young athlete, especially, and he said he was the same, we're actually running from stuff and we were fighting and we were forcing and actually probably brutalising our bodies in order to deal with something that was going on in our brains and trying to prove things. I think a lot of athletes live in that state and it's actually encouraged to live in that state, if you have a burning and I've even propagated the state and others. Where you're using the fire of anger, of being put down, of being let down to fuel your performance. And into a certain degree that works. I mean, being obviously, an incredible bodybuilder in my life that turned into running ridiculous kilometres and across deserts and so on. I don't run any more though stupidly long distances. One of the reasons is, I don't have the massive issues in my brain anymore. I have not needing to run away from something, prove something. I'm not saying that all athletes are doing this. But I do think that there is a large number of people who are handling things through expression of this sports, and how do you change that mindset? Because I still very much have that mindset. When I go to the gym, I'm there to smash myself, I'm going to punish myself, I'm going to work hard. I'm going to push through the pain barriers because that is the culture we've grown up as athletes. You work hard. If it's not hurting, then you're probably not doing it enough. How do we change that conversation and reach still these very elite levels without having that type of a mentality? Sorry for that.  Dr. Dawson: If you aren't in flow, you will injure yourself. I remember interviewing members of American football players and these are usually very large men. They're very large men and they're very athletic, and they can jump like a metre share, vertical jump, and they reach remarkable speeds. They can start running and running really, really, really quickly, the catching. I remember this one young man said, ‘This is my million-dollar hand'. He was going to pay a lot of money as an American football star and he said ‘I've broken my fingers, at least one sometimes two or three times every season. And I can't afford to have this happen to my million-dollar hand'. After he learned EFT, after he learned to meditate, after he learned centring, getting into flow each game, he never broke another finger. He had one injury when he was just learning to meditate and do EFT. And they said, ‘Oh, it's the Achilles tendon injuries. You'll be out of the game for at least 12 weeks or maybe 16 weeks.' Three weeks later, he was fine. And so, athletes, first of all, when they're in the zone, when they're in flow, they injure themselves less and their performance goes up. It's that old Yerkes-Dodson law, currently referred to a little bit of stress is fine. Anyone has a little bit of stress. Now what I'm what I'm getting at right now, I mean, to you and me, if I didn't have a fair amount of cortisol and adrenaline, I'd be a really boring guest.  Lisa: To some degree, we want that when we're ready.  Dr. Dawson: We want that. Absolutely, but not too much of it. Lisa: And like we're in a flow state, I'm in a flow state right now. Because I feel like I am because I just love learning from people like you. I'm just, give me more, all the heroes and stuff, because I'm learning and that is for me, one of my flow states studying and science. That really helps me. But how do we change that conversation for athletes? So that they're not going out to deliberately hurt themselves, but still able to reach those. I remember one story if you don't mind sharing, I think it was with your niece? Was it Jessica or something? Dr. Dawson: Yes, Jessica.  Lisa: Do you mind sharing that story?  Dr. Dawson: Yeah, she is the national champion at rhythmic gymnastics. She meets me out there after the rank every year. So four years in a row, she was the US national champion. But again, she was pushing herself, she was collapsing inside. She was not doing it all well. On the outside, her performances look great. On the inside, she was just suffering and she eventually just couldn't go anymore, and just had withdrawn from the sport and collapsed. So that's not sustainable. What you find for the athletes who have a long-term career usually is they've learned to pace themselves. They've learned to reach that state of flow and stay there over time, they aren't pushing themselves.  The other cool thing that happens, I've done a lot of work with women who are overweight or obese. They are often at war with their bodies, they have been ignoring their bodies, turning their bodies out, hating their bodies for over four decades. They don't like exercise on the whole. And it's hard for them to exercise. Like if you're heavy, there's strain on your joints and your muscles. It's difficult to exercise, there's no great reward for exercising. So what we try to do, we don't even call that module of our program exercise, we call it joyful movement. Joyful movement. And so I say, ‘Go to the gym. Grab that maybe a 10-pound weight. And if you're just doing dumbbells and doing 10-pound weight, that's fine. If you have a goal of doing 10 reps, do as many reps as you feel good doing. Wait for the endorphin rush to kick in when you feel good. And the moment you feel bad, stop'. Now what they do is they then do eight and then they start to feel bad or stray, they stop at eight. Now they're feeling an endorphin rush today. And maybe in the next week they feel the endorphin rush, and they're doing 11. But what has then happened is that they are associating going to the gym with pleasure neurochemicals, not with pain. And then you can't keep away from exercise. I mean, once you've learned to rejig your neurochemistry, to re-associate those exercise bands, or that piece of exercise equipment, or your kayak or your mountain bike with pleasure, rather than with compulsion and pain, then you find people are highly motivated to exercise. So we retrain them to do this. It also has the effect of listening and listening to their bodies. No longer is your body a threat and a problem. It's now something to listen to. It's a signal, ‘Hey, this doesn't feel good'. You stopped right away. So in my own workouts, if I decided to do 20 reps or something, and after 17, I'm no longer feeling good. I stopped at 17, then my body is saying, ‘Wow, 17 feels wonderful'. And then you completely change your conditioning to make that exercise a joy and a pleasure. After a while, you can't stop people going to the gym, if you use your own neurochemistry in an intelligent way like that. Lisa: Well and you don't limit your performance when you do that? Because like, as an athlete you know that you have to endure a certain amount of pain to reach the next level, or that's what we've been told at least.  You have to high intensity interval training and better back in CrossFit and rah, rah rah. The gentle approach, I can see being super good for somebody who's never exercised and just wants to break into this field, does the same apply for elite athletes wanting to get to the best that they can be? Because you're up against the competition that are training in this way of brute force training type of way. Is that as well?  Dr. Dawson: Yeah that too is a way of training, one way of training is the brute way of training. The other way is the supported way of training. That's a very good question. So that way works great for people who are getting into exercise for the first time. But what about people who are at that elite level?  There is a time to push yourself and there's a time to back off. Only you know that. No one else can really tell you what that point is. But you know yourself. Like me, for example, I do a lot of mountain biking. There are sometimes where there's a long, steep hill. I'm exhausted and I think, ‘I'm exhausted, there's a steep hill ahead. I am just kind of go for it'. And it feels so exciting to do that. But if I had a coach saying, ‘Go for it'. If I was riding with somebody, and they would say, ‘Go for it'. I was trying to keep up with them. And I wasn't listening to my body, then probably I'd injured myself. That's what I have injured myself actually, in the past. So, you tune into yourself, and no one else is something no coach knew for you.  Are you meant to just put in that extra burst of effort? And then transcend yourself. We don't know for another person, we only know for ourselves. So it's really an interesting meditation. And again, it means being sensitive to yourself to know when to do that. The other thing is, it's not the same every day, we have by rhythm. Sometimes, we are just so in rhythm. That's the time to say, ‘I was planning on this 35-minute routine, I need to do the 55 minute routine instead.' And you just know that day, ‘I'm so in-sync, my body wants to do that.' You get good at reading your body and you know. I think the best lead athletes and how are some football players, the average football player in the National Football League in the US has about a 4-year career. How does someone like Tom Brady have a career that spans decades? You want these great athletes often, or great musicians or great scientists. They aren't a flash in the pan, they're sustaining peak performance over time. I think they're the ones who are pacing themselves.  Lisa: Yeah. And are the ones that are listening to the body. I think, with training athletes, I often say, ‘If you start, you have to sort of look at how has your day been? How much sleep did you get?

We're often told not to care too much about what other people think of us. However, understanding how others perceive us can play to our advantage. Sometimes we fail to see our own mistakes or flaws, and to overcome this, we need to develop self-awareness by looking at ourselves from a different perspective. Once we realise our flaws, we can do better and achieve high performance. Craig Harper joins us in this episode to discuss how self-awareness can lead to high performance. He also explains the importance of external awareness or the ability to understand how others perceive us. We also talk about events that changed our life perspectives and how to live aligned with our values. If you want to increase your self-awareness and achieve high performance, then this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program optimising fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance for your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join our free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset to head injuries, to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover what external self-awareness is and how it can help you achieve high performance. Find out why motivation alone doesn't work. Learn how to live in alignment for a healthy and meaningful life.   Resources The You Project Podcast with Craig Harper The You Project #360: Embracing the Suck with Lisa Tamati Check out Craig's books. Connect with Craig: Website | Instagram | Linkedin BrainPark   Episode Highlights [03:44] About Craig Craig used to be the fattest kid in school until he decided to lose weight at 14 years old. Curious about fitness and nutrition, he started working in gyms.  Craig eventually set up his first personal training centre in Australia. At 36 years old, Craig went to university to study Exercise Science. Realising the importance of understanding human behaviour, he's now taking a PhD in neuropsychology. [08:58] External Self-Awareness Being self-aware means understanding how other people perceive, process and experience you. You can make better connections when you know what it's like for people to be around you. Going into a situation assuming others have the same mindset can create problems. Acknowledging your lack of awareness is the first step in overcoming it.  [15:20] On High Performance High performance answers the question of how you can do better.  It applies to all aspects of life.  For Craig, high performance means getting the most out of your potential, resources and time. Listen to the full episode to get a rundown of the principles you need to achieve high performance. [16:14] Recognising Your Programming Humans have the power to recognise and change how they see the world. Because we do the same things daily, we fall into living unconsciously.  When our approach doesn't give us the results we want, it might be time to try something different. It may be not easy, but going out of our comfort zones makes us stronger.  [28:43] Working Around Genetic Predispositions What you're born with doesn't change the fact that your choices have power. Focus on things you can control and own the situation at hand. Be careful that self-awareness doesn't become self-deprecation. From there, focus on how you can attain high performance.  [33:42] Reflecting on Your Relationships Despite his nutrition expertise, Craig faces a constant battle to make good food choices.  Reflect on your relationship with food. Is it good or bad? Healthy or unhealthy? You can apply this to other aspects of your life as well. Doing this opens the door to self-management and self-awareness.  [37:51] Where People Get Their Sense of Self We learn that self-esteem, self-worth and identity is an outside-in process. Craig's theory is that it's an inside-out process.  The external and observable things don't matter as much as the things happening internally. Listen to the full episode to find out how two experiences in Craig's life put his life into perspective. [1:00:38] Motivation Alone Doesn't Work A lot of people rely on their current state of motivation to get things done.  What's important is how willing you are to put in the work despite the inconvenience and discomfort. [1:02:25] Live in Alignment Ask yourself if you're willing to put in the work to achieve your goals.  You can live in alignment with your values by following an operating system based on them.  Listen to the full episode to know the questions you need to ask yourself to create this operating system.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘Firstly, I've got as many issues as anyone that I work with. And this is not self-loathing; this is me just going, "Okay, so how do I do better?" And this for me is the process of high performance’. ‘Nobody is totally objective or open-minded because the human experience is subjective’. ‘Real awareness and consciousness is to first be aware of your lack of awareness’. ‘The only person that can ever really get in my way is me, you know. But also, I'm the solution to me’. ‘So we get taught directly or indirectly that self-esteem and self-worth and identity is an outside-in process. My theory is that it is the other way around—it is an inside out journey’. ‘Of course, there's nothing wrong with building a great business... or whatever. That's not bad, but it's not healthy when that's the totality of who we are’. ‘I don't care what you get done when you're motivated; I care what you get done when you're not motivated because everyone's a champion when they're in the zone’.   About Craig Craig Harper is one of Australia's leading presenters, writers and educators in health, high performance, resilience, self-management, leadership, corporate change, communication, stress management, addiction and personal transformation.  Craig has been an integral part of the Australian health and fitness industry since 1982. He has worked as an Exercise Scientist, Corporate Speaker, Consultant, University Lecturer, AFL Conditioning Coach, Radio Host, TV Presenter, Writer and successful Business Owner. In 1990, Craig established Harper's Personal Training, which evolved into one of the most successful businesses of its kind.  Craig currently hosts a successful Podcast called 'The You Project'. He is also partnering with the Neuroscience Team at Monash University, where he's completing a neuropsychology PhD. There, he studies the spectrum of human thinking and behaviour.  Craig speaks on various radio stations around Australia weekly. He also hosted his weekly show on Melbourne radio called 'the Science of Sport' for a decade. Craig currently fills an on-air role as a presenter on a lifestyle show called 'Get a Life', airing on Foxtel.  As an Exercise Scientist, Craig has worked with many professional athletes and teams. While still working with groups and individuals regularly, Craig delivers more than one hundred corporate presentations annually. Want to know more about Craig and his work? Check out his website, or follow him on Instagram and Linkedin!   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so that they can develop their self-awareness and achieve high performance. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing The Limits. This week I have Craig Harper to guest. Now, Craig is a very well-known media personality, exercise scientist, crazy fitness guru, owns some of the biggest personal training gyms in Australia, has a huge track record as a corporate speaker, motivational speaker, worked with Olympians, worked with all sorts of athletes across a number of different sports. And he's absolutely hilarious. I really enjoyed this interview, I was on Craig's show a couple of weeks ago, The You Project, you can go and check that one out as well. A great podcast. And today we sort of did a deep dive into everything around self-awareness and understanding your potential and realising your potential. And just it was a really interesting conversation with a very interesting man. He's doing a PhD in understanding the experience that people have when they meet you. So, understanding how people see you. So it's a really interesting conversation. So, I hope you enjoy that.  Before we go over to the show, please give us a rating and review. We really appreciate any ratings and reviews that you give us. It's really hugely helpful for the show. It is a labour of love. We are about to if we haven't already, by the time this podcast goes live, developing a way that you guys can get involved as audience members of Pushing The Limits if you want to support the show. So stay tuned for that. And in the meantime, if you need help with your running or you need help with your health, then please reach out to us. You can reach us at lisatamati.com. You can check out our programmes on lisatamati.com. We have our epigenetics programme and our running programmes where we do customised run training systems, video analysis, working out a plan customised fully for you and you get a consult with me. We also do health optimisation, coaching. So if you are needing help with a really difficult health journey, then please reach out to us as well. Right, over to the show with Craig Harper.  Lisa Tamati: Well, welcome back everybody to Pushing The Limits. Today I have an hilarious, amazing, crazy, awesome guest for you, Craig Harper. Who doesn't know Craig Harper? If you're in Australia, you definitely know who the heck Craig Harper is. If you're in New Zealand, you probably know who Craig Harper is. And if you don't, you're about to find out. Welcome to the show! Craig, how are you doing? Craig Harper: Now I feel like I've got to live up to some kind of bloody pressure, some expectation. Nobody knows me in New Zealand. Let's start, you do and your mum. That's about it. Lisa: Me and mum, you left quite an impression on my mum. Craig: And my family, and relatives, and a few randoms over here, know who I am. But thank you, Lisa, for having me on. I'm really glad to be here. Lisa: It's awesome. Now, this is gonna be a bit of a hilarious show because Craig is a bit of a character. I was on Craig's show in Australia, The You Project and it was one of the most fun podcast interviews I've had. I mean, I love getting into the science and deep with stuff, but it was really fun to just slip my hair down so to speak and rant and rave a little bit in here, but it’s fun, so today there'll be no doubt a bit of it. Craig, can you tell the ones who don't know about you? You're in Melbourne or just outside Melbourne in Hampton, Victoria in Australia. Can you tell us a little bit of your background, your crazy amazing career that you have had? Craig: Sure. So I'll start with, well, maybe I'll go a little bit before my career because what happened before was a bit of a catalyst. So I had a pretty good childhood, all that stuff. I won't bore the listeners. But one of the things that was part of my growing up was being a fat kid, the fattest kid in my school. So that became a bit of a catalyst for me to explore getting in shape and all that stuff. So when I was 14, I lost a whole lot of weight. I was 90 something kilos, I went down to about 60 and I started training.  Lisa: Wow. Craig: I started running and I started doing bodyweight stuff I lost about—I literally lost a third of my body weight in 15 weeks. And it wasn't like I had a horrible childhood, it was fine. But I was called jumbo all through school. That was my name so the kids called me that, parents, teachers all that but believe it or not, it wasn't really hostile, or horrible, it was I don't know it's because I was this big, fat, pretty happy kid, right? But anyway, so, I got in shape, and that led me into a lot of curiosity, and exploration, and investigation in fitness and nutrition. And so I started working in gyms when I was 18 and had no idea what I was doing. The qualifications and the barriers to entry then were very low. So, I started working in gyms, Lisa, when I was 18, which was 1982. I'm 57 and I ended up in 1989, I think, I set up the first Personal Training Center in Australia.  Lisa: Wow. Craig: So, lots of other things around that. But I owned PT studios for 25 years at the biggest centre in the southern hemisphere in Brighton a few kilometres from where I'm sitting now, which was 10,000 square feet. It was bigger than lots of commercial gyms. But it was just a PT centre. Worked with elite athletes, work with the AFL over here Australian Football League with St Kilda footy club, Melbourne Vixens in the national and the Trans-Tasman League, it was then Netball League, Melbourne Phoenix, Nissan motorsport, a bunch of Olympians, blokes in prison, corporates, people with disability, normal people, abnormal people. I put me in the abnormal category.  Lisa: Yeah, definitely. Craig: And later on when—I didn't go to uni until I was 36 for the first time.  Lisa: Wow.  Craig: Did a degree in exercise science. It was hilarious because I'd already been working with elite people as a conditioning coach and a strength coach. And yeah, lots of stuff. I did radio over here for about 20 years. I started my podcast a few years ago, I did television for a few years, three years on national telly. I wrote for the Herald Sun, which is the main paper in Melbourne for a while. Lots of magazines, I've written a bunch of books. I've written seven, I've written nine books, I think seven or eight of them are published. I'm looking at the books on my table, I should probably know that number. Lisa: Can’t even remember, there's so many. Craig: And, like, but really the thing that I guess where we might go today, but for me was, I realised by the time I was about 19 or 20 working in gyms, I realised that how much I knew about bodies wasn't nearly as important as how much I understood human beings. And so while my understanding of anatomy and physiology and biomechanics and movement and energy systems, and progressive overload, and adaptation and recovery, and all of those things wasn't great, to be honest, like I was 20.  Lisa: Yup. Craig: But it was all right. And it improved over time. But what really mattered was how well I understood human behaviour. Because as you and I know, we can give someone a programme and direction and education and encouragement and support and resources, and not knowledge and awareness. But that doesn't mean they're going to go and do the work. And it definitely doesn't mean they're going to create the result. And it definitely doesn't mean they're going to explore their talent or their potential. And so yeah, it's been from when I was 18...  Lisa: So you've gone in it? Craig: Yeah, from when I was 18 till now, it's just been lots of different roles and lots of different places. And I guess the other main bit before I shut up was I realised when I was about 20, that I didn't like having a boss much. And not that...  Lisa: We got that in common.  Craig: In my back, my boss was a good dude. But I thought I don't want to be, like, I could do this for me. I don't need to do this for you. And so the last time I had a boss was 32 years ago. So I've been working for myself since I was 25. Lisa: Wow, that's freaking awesome. And what an amazing career and so many books, and I know that you're actually doing a PhD at the moment. So what's your PhD? And why did you choose this sort of a subject for your PhD? Craig: Yeah, so my PhD is in neuropsychology/neuroscience. So, I'm at Monash over here, we have a facility called Bryan Park, which is cool. There's lots of cool stuff there. That's where I'm based. And my research is in a thing called external self-awareness, which is understanding the ‘you’ experience for others. So in other words, it's your ability to be able to understand how other people perceive and process and experience ‘you'.  Lisa: Wow, that is a fascinating subject.  Craig: Which is, very little research on it. So I'm, I've created a scale, which is to measure this component of psychology or communication or awareness. And so I'm doing—I'm putting that through the grill at the moment, getting that validated. I’m doing two studies. The first study is being run kind of soon. But yeah, the whole research is around this thing of ‘What's it like being around me and do I know what it's like being around me'? Not from an insecurity point of view, but from an awareness point of view because when I understand, for example, the Craig experience for Lisa or for an audience or in front of all for the person I'm coaching, or the athlete I'm working with, or the drug addict, the person with addictive issues that I'm sitting with, then if I understand what it's like being around me, I can create greater and deeper connection. But one of the mistakes that a lot of leaders, and coaches, and managers, and people in positions of authority make is that they assume that people just understand what they're saying. Or they assume that people think like them. When in reality, the only person who thinks exactly like me in the world is me.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And the only person who thinks like Lisa Tamati exactly all the time, 24/7 is Lisa, right?  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: So when I go into a conversation, or a situation, or a process, or a negotiation, or an encounter with somebody, and I assume that they think like me or understand like me, or that my intention is their experience, which is rarely the case, I'm more likely to create problems and solutions.  Lisa: Yeah. And you're not going to hit the nail on the head and actually get the results for where that person that you are wanting to get.  Craig: Yeah, and that is... Lisa: This is a real powerful thing because you know what I mean, just maybe as you were talking there, I was like, ‘Well, how do people perceive me?', that's an interesting thought because you just sort of go through your daily interactions with people, and you think you're a compassionate, empathetic person who gets everything in, you’re sort of picking up on different cues and so on. But then to actually think how is that person experiencing me, and I like, as a coach, as I develop as a coach, I've had problems when I'm doing one on one, and that I'm overwhelming people sometimes because I'm so passionate and so full of information. And I've had to, and I'm still learning to fit that to the person that I'm talking to. And because, for me, it's like, I've got so much information, I want to fix you and help you. And I was like, ‘Woohoo', and the person was like, ‘Heh'. Craig: So you and I connect because we're kind of similar, right? And I love that, I love your craziness and your energy, and you're full-onness. But you and I, unless we are aware around some people, we will scare the fuck out of them.  Lisa: Yup. Craig: So, that's why it's important that people like—all of us really not just you and I, but that we have an awareness of what is the leisure experience for this because like, let's say, for example, you've got five athletes, and you want to inspire them and get them in the zone, motivate them, and they're all in front of you. And so you give all of them in the same moment. And let's say they're five similar athletes in a similar, if not the same sport with a similar goal—doesn't matter—but the reality is they are five different human beings, right? They've got five different belief systems and backgrounds and sets of values and prejudices and like and emotional states, and so you're not talking to the same person. But when you deliver the same message to five different humans, and you expect the same connection? We're not thinking it through.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: So and of course, you can't create optimal connection with everyone all the time. But this is just part of the, ‘What's it like? What's their experience of me like?' And again, it's not about ‘Oh, I'm insecure, and I want them to like me'. No, it's about, ‘I need to understand how they perceive and process me so that I can create connection'. And look, the other really interesting thing about psychology and the human experience, and metacognition, thinking about thinking more broadly, is that all of us think we're open-minded and objective, but none of us are. Nobody is totally objective or open-minded because the human experience is subjective.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: So, even me who understands this and is doing a PhD in it and teaches it. Well, people go back and you objective and I go, ‘No, I wish I was in it. I'd like to say I am because it sounds fucking great, but I'm not'. And the reason that I'm not is because wherever I go, my ego, my issues, my beliefs, my values, my limitations, my biases, go with me.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And they are the window through which I view and process the world, right?  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: So, our ego wants us to say, ‘Of course, I'm objective. Of course, I'm open-minded'. But the truth is, and with some things, we will be more objective and open-minded because we don't really have a pre-existing idea about it. But on a global or a broad level, our stuff goes with us everywhere, and the beginning of, without getting too deep or philosophical, but awareness—real awareness and consciousness—is to first be aware of your lack of awareness. Lisa: Love it. That is amazing. Yeah. Craig: You can't overcome the thing you won't acknowledge, or you can't get good at the thing you won't do. Right? And so I have to go, 'Firstly, I'm flawed. Firstly, I've got as many issues as anyone that I work with.’ And this is not self-loathing, this is me just going, ‘Okay, so how do I do better?' And this for me, this is the process of performance, high performance, whether it's at sport, at life, at recovery, at relationships, at connection—doesn't matter—high performance is high performance. For me, high performance means getting the most out of you and your potential and your resources and your time.  Lisa: Yup. Craig: And so the principles that work with becoming an elite athlete, most of those principles work with building a great business.  Lisa: Yep, they grow further. Craig: Which is why physicians follow through, get uncomfortable, do the work, show up, don't give up, ask great questions, persevere, roll up your sleeves, pay attention to your results, improvise, adapt, overcome. Like, this is not new stuff.  Lisa: Know that it rolls off your tongue pretty damn well because you've been in this space for a long time. And a lot of us like to go into that whole, our bias and yell at the future that we see the world through the lens, which we look through. We're not aware like, we love the programming. And this is what I had done a lot of work on for myself, the programming that I got as a kid, that I downloaded into my subconscious is running the ship, basically, and I can, as an educated, hopefully, wiser woman now, go ‘Hang on a minute, that little voice that just popped up in my head and told me, ‘I'm not good enough to do that', is not me talking. That's the programme. That's the programme I downloaded when I was, I don't know, seven or eight or something. And it's a product of that conditioning.’ And I can actually go in, and then it's that to change that story. Because that, and I think a lot of us are just running on automatic, we're still playing.  I'll give you an example. So when my mum was a kid, she was up on stage and doing a speech at school when she froze, right? And she got laughed off the stage. And kids can be nasty. And so forever in a day, she was like, ‘I will not ever speak in public again'. Because she'd had this experience as a what, a seven or eight-year-old. And she was telling me the story as a 40-something, 50-something year-old. 'No, I'm not ever getting up in a public space because', and I'm like, 'But that's just—you are not that seven or eight year old now. And you can have a choice to make that changes', and she couldn't make that change until she had the aneurysm. And then she forgot all those memories, some of those memories were gone, and that inhibition was gone. And now she'll get up and talk on stage in front of like 500 doctors. Craig: That's amazing. I love it. And what you just articulated beautifully. The core of a lot of what I do, which is recognising your programming and where does my stories, or my stories finish? And where do I start?  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: So, you think about it, from everyone listening to this from when we could reason anything, or process any data around us or understand anything from when we—I don't know, two, three months, really probably earlier but until listening to this podcast right now, all of us have been trained, and taught, and told, and programmed, and conditioned. And then, now here we are. And it's being aware of that and me to everyone is like, ‘Well, my beliefs', like think about when did you choose your beliefs?  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Pretty much never. They’re just there, and they’re there as a byproduct of your journey. Now that's okay, that's not bad or good. That's normal. Well, the next question is, are all of your beliefs, do they serve you? Well, the answer is no. Do any of them sabotage you? Well, a shitload! Okay, so let's put them under the microscope. So you know that word that I used before metacognition is, in a nutshell, thinking about thinking where and this is where we go, hang on. Let's just step out of the groundhog-dayness of our existence which you also spoke of, like, and let's go hang on. Because what we do, on a level we live consciously that is I've got to think about where I'm driving, and I've got to figure out what I'm giving the kids for dinner or what I'm getting, what time I'm training or, but really, on a real fundamental macro level. We live largely unconsciously...  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: ...because we kind of do the same shit the same way...  Lisa: Everyday. Craig: ...same conversations, even you and I know. Like, I've been training in the gym since I was 14, that's 43 years, I watch people go to the gym who always do the same fucking workout.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: Same rep, the same set, same treadmill, same speed, same inclines, same boxing, same everything, same intensity, same workload, same machines. And then they say, why isn't my body changing? Well because it doesn't need to.  Lisa: No. Given the status quo, you don’t. Craig: Because you're stimulating it the same way.  Lisa: I was working in that for years. Craig: And we can expand that to life. Whereas we, kind of, I was talking to a lady yesterday about this, and she was telling me about a conversation she has with her son who's got some issues, who's 17. And I will be really honest, ‘How many times have you had a version of that conversation with him?’ She goes, ‘1,000'.  Lisa: Wow.  Craig: I go, ‘And how's that going?’ Now, that might be an exaggeration. But the bottom line is, but nonetheless, despite the fact that it didn't work the first 999 times, she's doing it again.  Lisa: She’ll keep doing it.  Craig: So it's about, and again, it's not about beating ourselves up, it's about gamble, whatever I'm doing, whether or not it's with this relationship, or this training programme, or this habit, or behaviour, or this business, whatever I'm doing isn't working. So let's have a new conversation or no conversation, or let's try a different protocol, or let's change the way I sleep.  Lisa: Isn't that like the circuitry in the brain, when you do something for the first time that’s really hard. Because you're creating a new connection in the brain. And therefore, we go into these old routines and habits, even though we don't want to be doing them anymore, but the groove and the brain is so well-worn, that path is so—those synapses of connected or whatever they do in there, and that path is so well-worn, that it's the path of least resistance for our lazy brains, and our subconscious to do what it does all the time. So, when you're driving a car home, and you can have a conversation and be singing a song, and thinking about what you're cooking for dinner, and then you get to halfway into town, and you realise, ‘Hell, I can't even remember driving there', but you were doing it, and you were doing it safely. Because it was all on that subconscious, automated level. When you were first driving the car, it was a mission. And it was like, ‘Oh my god, I got to change the gears and steer and keep an eye on,' and it was all like overwhelmed, but then it got easier and easier and easier. And then with our rituals and habits that we develop, we make these well-worn grooves, don't we? And then we just follow the same old, same old even though it's not getting the results that we want. And when we try and step out of our comfort zone and start doing a new habit and developing a new way, there's a lot of resistance in the brain for the first few weeks, isn't there? Until you get that groove going. And then it gets easier and easier and easier once you've done it 100 times. Is that what you're sort of saying here? Craig: Yeah. I mean, that's perfect. I mean, you nailed it. Look, the thing is that everything that we do for the first time, for most of us, nearly everything, unless we've done something very similar before, but it's hard.  Lisa: Very. Craig: So I always say everyone starts as a white belt. In the dojo, you start as a white belt.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: When as an ultramarathon, if I went, Lisa, which I wouldn't, but if I went, ‘I'm gonna run an ultramarathon'. Well, if I started training today, metaphorically, today, I'm a white belt.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: I'm a black belt at other stuff.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: I'm a green belt. I'm a yellow belt. Depends what I'm doing. Depends what—I'm not bad at talking to audiences that's... I should be pretty good at it. I've done it a million times. But take me to yoga, and I'll hide in the corner because I'm as flexible as a fucking ceramic tile. I’m a white belt. Right? I bet, put me in the gym lifting weights, I go okay, right? And so, again, this is all just about awareness, and development, and ownership. And, but the thing too, is that you're right, everything is very—we do create not only neural grooves, patterns, but also behavioural, and emotional, and cognitive grooves too, where we’re very comfortable in this space. And one of the challenges for us, it's like, it's a dichotomy. Because if everyone listening to this could somehow be involved and put up a show of hands, and we said, ‘All right, everyone. How many of you want to change something about your life or your outcomes or your situation or your body? Or your operating system or your current life experience?’ Nearly everyone's going to put up their hand.  Lisa: Yes. Craig: For something, right? Something. Then if you said, all right, ‘Now, at the same time, be brutally honest with yourself, how many of you like being comfortable?’, everyone's gonna put up their hand. So the problem is, on the one hand, we say I want to be strong, and resilient, and amazing, and produce great results, and do great shit, and grow, and develop my potential and fucking kill it, and but I don't want to get uncomfortable. Well, good luck, princess, that isn't working. It doesn't work. Lisa: The world’s a bitch really, isn't it? I mean, like it is the way it works. You need resistance. Craig: How can you get strong without working against resistance?  Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Craig: Yes. Lisa: This is just the… in my boxing gym, there was a saying on the wall, ‘Strength comes from struggle', and it's just like, ‘Oh damn, that's so right'. Like it's not what we always want. And I wish sometimes that the world was made another way. But we constantly need to be pushing up against what hurts, what is uncomfortable, it's painful just from a biology point of view being in the thermonuclear range, being nice and comfortably warm and cozy is really bad for us. And for you in that all the time, we need to go into an ice bath or cold water or go surfing or something and get cold, we need to be hot, go into a sauna. And when you do these things outside of those comfort zones, we need to lift weights in order to build stronger muscles, we need to do fasting in order to have autophagy, we need—all of these things are those stuff that is outside of pleasant. And you better get used to that idea. It's not because I want to be, like, masochistic in my approach to life. But it's just the way that the world works. If you sit on your ass being comfortable eating chips all day watching Netflix, you're not going to get the results that you're looking for. Craig: That's right. And also there's this—because we only live in the moment. And because we are, and I'm generalising, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners are not what I'm about to describe. But because many of us are very instant gratification based.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Right? It's like, the story is I'll eat this, I'll do this, I'll avoid that. But I'll start tomorrow, or I'll start Monday, or I'll start January 1. And that goes on for 15 years, right?  Lisa: Yep. We’ve all done it. Craig: And now I've backed myself into an emotional, and a psychological, and physiological corner that's hard to get out of because now, I'm 49. And my body's kind of fucked. And I've got high blood pressure. And I've got all these issues because I've been avoiding, and denying, and delaying, and lying to myself for a long time. Again, this is not everyone, so please don't get offended.  Lisa: And It's not a judgment. It's just the way it goes. Craig: No, because, I mean, this is what happens. Like, we live in this world where you can't say the truth.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And I'm not talking about being insensitive or moral judgments on people. But the thing is, it's like, when I talk about being fat, I talk about myself because then no one could get injured, insulted...  Lisa: Insulted, yup. Craig: ...or offended, right. So when I was fat, I wasn't thick-set, or full-figured or voluptuous or stocky? I was fucking fat. Right?  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And, but I was fat because of my choices and behaviours.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: Now, there are lots of variables around that.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: But at some stage, we have to say, and again, there are people with genetics that make stuff difficult...  Lisa: Absolutely. Craig: ...for medical conditions and all that we fully acknowledge that, but at some stage, we need to go, ‘Alright, well, I'm making decisions and doing things which are actually destroying me'.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: ‘They're actually hurting me'. And this is just about ownership and awareness and my, like, the biggest challenge in my life is me, the biggest problem in my life is me. Like, the only person that can ever really get in my way is me. But also, I'm the solution to me. Lisa: I think it's a willingness to work on it. And like, I've looked into addictions and things quite a lot too, because I know that I have an addictive personality trait. I have genetics that are predisposed to that, and I do everything obsessively. So whether that's running for like a billion kilometres, or whether that's running five companies, or whether that's whatever I'm doing, I'm doing like an extreme version of that because it's just, like, I have that type of personality and it is genetics. And I find that that's one of the study of genetics for me, it's so interesting, there's a lot of predisposition in there. However, that does not negate the fact that I can still make choices, and I can turn the ship around. And I need to be aware of those predispositions, just like mum's got some predispositions towards cardiovascular disease and putting on weight very easily. That's just a fact of life for her, and it's not pleasant. And compared to other genetic types, it's a bit of a disadvantage. However, it is a fact. And therefore, she can still make the right choices for her body.  And this is why I like working in the genetic space is really, really powerful because then I can say, well, it's not my fault that my genes are like this, but they are what they are, and we can remove some of the judgment on ourselves because I think when we—if we're judging ourselves all the time, that's not helpful either, because that stuff we’re like, ‘Oh, well, I'm just useless. And then I'm never gonna do anything,’ rather than empowering and say, ‘Well, it is what it is, the genes that I've been given are these, the environment that I've exposed to is this, the advertising and all that sort of stuff that's coming at us with McDonald's on every street corner and all of that sort of stuff, I can't influence there. What I can influence is I can educate myself and I can start to make better choices from my particular body and start taking ownership of that process and not just going, well, it's not my fault that I'm bigger boned.’ You may be bigger-boned or bigger, have genetics that are all about conservation. Then you need to be doubly careful. And put in the education, and the time, and the work, and I think it's about taking ownership and not judging yourself by getting on with the job. Like I know, like, I know my own personal and—what did you say to me the first time I met you? Something that was real self-aware anyway, without self-deprecating, and it was self-aware? I can't remember what it was that you said, it is a man who knows his own weakness and is working on it. And I think that's really key. Like, I know what I'm shit at and... Craig: And that’s not self-loathing, that's self-awareness. And here's the thing, we're all about learning and growing. And I love my life, and I'm aware that I've got some skills and gifts. I'm also aware that I've got lots of flaws and shit I need to work on. And for some people, that's part of just the journey for other people, they are in a bit of a groundhog day. I always say if you're in a bit of a groundhog day, but you're happy then stay there. Because don't change because this is how I—don't be like me, for God's sake be like you. But if being like you, if your normal operating system equals anxiety, and sleeplessness and a bit of depression, and a bit of disconnection, and I'm not talking purely about mental health, I'm just talking about that state that we all get in, which is a bit like, ‘Fuck, I don't love my life, this wasn't where I thought I would be.’  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: Then maybe start to work consciously on and acknowledge, there's some things that you can't change, some you can, and literally what you were talking about a minute ago, which is literally, ‘Okay, so there's what I've got, which is I've got these genetics, I've got 24 hours in a day. I'm 57. I've got this, these are the things I have, then there's what I do with it all.’ So I'm an endomorph. I walk past a doughnut, my ass gets bigger. That's my body type, right? So I need to go, ‘Alright, well with these, or with this disposition, how do I manage optimally with 24 hours in a day without them using the least?’  Lisa: You’ve done a lot by the little sea, Craig. Craig: How do I manage my 24 hours optimally?  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: How do I? It's like, I eat two meals a day. I don't recommend anyone else does that.  Lisa: For even the most, it’s great. Craig: But for me, I don't… Lisa: For an endomorph, that’s great. Craig: I’m an 85-kilo dude with a bit of muscle. I don't need much food. Like, I would love to eat all the fucking food because I love food. What happens when I eat what I want versus what I need is I get fat. So I differentiate between: what does my body need to be lean, strong, functional, healthy versus what does Craig the fucking ex-fat kid want to inhale?  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Because, and the other thing too. And this is probably a bit irrelevant. Maybe relevant, though, for a lot of people. Like I would say, of the people that I've worked with closer over the years, which is thousands and thousands.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: I would say most people, including me, have a relationship with food that’s somewhere on the scale between a little bit disordered and an eating disorder, right?  Lisa: Yup. Craig: And a little bit not always...  Lisa: I’ll cook my end up then. It’s always an issue. Craig: At the other end of the scale, I'm a fucking lunatic around food, right? Now, you're educated, I'm educated, but I tell people all the time. So if I was an addict, and by the way, I've never drank, never smoked, never done drugs. But if I have started drugs or alcohol, I would have probably...  Lisa: Done it well. Craig: ...a drunk and used for Australia, right? I probably would have been a champion because I'm like you. I'm addictive. Now my addiction is food. So you know people think, ‘But you're educated. But you're this, you're that.’ It doesn't matter. Like, I need to manage myself. Lisa: Still won’t hit pie. Craig: Yeah, I need to manage myself around food. Lisa: Yeah, daily.  Craig: Because if I open the cheesecake door, get out of the fucking way. Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Right?  Lisa: I hear you.  Craig: If I open certain doors that derails me, so I need to know. And this is the same with everybody. And it's like, we all have a relationship with food. Okay. Is yours good or bad? healthy or unhealthy? Don't overthink it, just be real. We all have a relationship with our body. How’s that going? We all have a relationship with exercise, activity movement. How’s that going? We all have a relationship with money. We all have a relationship with our ego. It's like, this is opening the door on self-awareness and self-management law to a new level. Lisa: Yeah, love it. Yeah, and this is going to be a fascinating PhD. I really—I can't wait to find out more about it. And I think just having that self-awareness, like I will freely say like, I've struggled with my body image, and who I am, and am I acceptable, and I was always trying to be the skinny little modern girl when I was young, and gymnast, and as a kid, and so struggled immensely with body image issues. And people will look at me now and they go, ‘Oh, whatever, you're lean and you're fit obviously and you don't ever—you wouldn't understand.’ Oh, you have no idea how much I understand. And there's still a constant daily battle: even though I'm educated, even though I know exactly what I should be and shouldn't be doing, I don't always succeed against my —that in a sort of drive that sometimes when you get out of balance, and this is why for me like keeping myself, when I say imbalance, I mean like keeping my neurotransmitters under wraps like in a nice, ordered fashion because I have a tendency to dopamine and adrenaline being my dominant hormones, right?  So I'm just like, go, go, go! Do your absolute blow, take a jump and risk, don't think about it, do go and then burn out, crash bang! And so I need to, I need to have constant movement, I need to do the meditation thing regularly. Like before this podcast, I took five minutes to get my brain back into this space because I wanted to do a good interview. And I wasn't going to do that in this stressed-out body, I'd been doing too much admin work for 10 hours. So, I know how to manage those things. And it's the management on an everyday basis that I think and having those tools in your toolkit so that you know how to pull it up, I can feel my adrenaline going, I can feel the anger rising, I better go for a sprint out to the letterbox and back. Whatever it takes. Does it resonate with you? Craig: Yeah, 100%. What's interesting is I've been around—I worked, one of the things I didn't mention, I worked at a drug and alcohol rehabilitation centre for three years just as their kind of, what’s my title? Buddy health something, manager something, but I would only work there one day a week with them, but work with lots of addicts and alcoholics, and also athletes and all those things. But the thing is, especially with athletes, athletes tend to get their sense of self and their identity from their performances.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: And not all, but a lot, and which is why I've known many athletes who got retired earlier than I thought. Lisa: Broke down. Craig: And well, they went into straightaway, most of them a depression or form of depression. And so this is a really interesting thing to just talk about briefly is—from a happiness and a wellness and a cognitive function, and a mental health, emotional health point of view, is to think about where you get your identity and sense of self from. Now, one of the challenges for us is, we live in a culture which is very much externally focused.  Lisa: Totally. Craig: So who you are, Lisa, who you are is what you have, and what you own, and what you wear, and what you look like, and what people think of you, and your brand, and your performance, and your outcome. All things, your shit. And I grew up in that because I was an insecure, fucking fat kid who became an insecure, muscle-y bloke. And then I woke up one day, I was 30. And I was huge, and I had muscles on my eyelids and veins everywhere. And all I was was just a bigger, more insecure version of what I used to be. Because I was still a fuckwit just in a bigger body, right? Because I wasn't dealing with the issues. Because my problem wasn't my biceps or deltoids and being my problem is, I'm mentally and emotionally bankrupt, and perhaps spiritually depending on your belief system. And so, we get taught from an early age that who you are essentially is about all things external. So we get taught directly or indirectly that self-esteem and self-worth and identity is an outside-in process.  My theory is that it is the other way around. It is an inside-out journey. It is, it's differentiating between who I am and my stuff, and recognising that everything that I have and own, and earn, and do, and my profile, and my podcast, and my results, and my brand, and my house, and my biceps, and all those physical, external observable things don't matter nearly as much from a mental and emotional health point of view as what is happening internally.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: So, and I'll shut up after this.  Lisa: No, that’s brilliant. Craig: But this is cool not because I'm sharing it, just this idea is cool, is that is the duality of the human experience. And what that means is that we live in two worlds. So where we do life is in this physical external place of situation, circumstance, environment, traffic lights, other humans, government, COVID, weather, runners, running, sport, all that external stuff, which is not bad. It's awesome, but that's where we do life. But where we do our living, where we do living is that inner space of feelings and ideas and creativity and passion and fear, and depression and anxiety and hope and joy, and overthinking and self doubt and self-loathing, and excitement and creativity. Lisa: Wow. Craig: It's trying to understand—because you and I know, at least a few people, maybe many who from the outside looking in their life is fucking amazing. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Craig: It's the Hollywood life.  Lisa: It’s so nearly like that. Craig: It's a life on the outside of shiny.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: But I've coached many of those people, trained them, worked with them, set with them. And not all, of course, some are great. But there are many people who from the outside looking in, you would go, they're really successful. That would be the label that we use in our culture.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Why are they successful? Oh, look at all of their stuff.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: All of that stuff. Those outcomes, that house and that equals that money, that equals success. But when you sit in, you talk to that person, you go, ‘Oh, this successful person doesn't sleep much, this person needs to medicate to sleep, and also for anxiety, and also for depression. And also they hate themselves, and also they feel disconnected, and also they're lonely.’ And, or if not all of that, some of that, if not all the time, some of the time, and you got all the outside and the inside don’t match.  Lisa: Don’t unlatch. Yeah.  Craig: And so it's going. And by the way, of course, there's nothing wrong with building a great business and writing five books and being an awesome runner, or whatever, building an empire. That's not bad. But it's not healthy when that's the totality of who we are. Lisa: Yeah, and spending time on the inside, and being okay with who you are. Because I often ask myself this question. What if it was all taken away from me again and I've lost—I went through my 30s, lost everything, hit start back from scratch. We've been there, done that. I've had to go through the wringer a couple of times. If everything was taken off me, my house, my achievements, my business, which could happen tomorrow, who am I? And would I be able to get back up again? And I reckon I would, because I've got tools to rebuild. And I know that resilience is the most important thing.  Craig: Yeah.  Lisa: The question I ask myself sometimes, so, is it whether, like, I lost my father this year, last year, sorry, six months ago, so that knocked the crap out of me...  Craig: 100%. Lisa: ...out of my resilience because that was like, up until that point, it didn't matter. If I lost my job, my car, my career, and anything else, but my family were safe, and they were all alive, then that's all I needed. And then when the chief gets taken out, the cornerstone who'd been a rock, my mum was too, but that was a cornerstone, then it didn't, it was a bit of an existential bloody crisis for me because I was like, ‘And now, life is never going to be the same again.’ And that resilience, I really had to dig deep to stand back up again. And I think, so grief is one of those things. So I asked myself constantly, and one of the reasons I drive myself so hard is to protect my family, and to look after them, make sure I don't miss anything. And this one of the things I study so hard for. Just sharing a personal story there to sort of get people to understand, ‘If you lost everything, could you get back up? What would it take to break you?’ That nearly broke me, to be brutally honest. Craig: Well, I say to people who are in a bit of a—and thanks for sharing that, and sorry about your dad. God bless him.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Like, I say to people, ‘Okay, let's forget all the fucking KPIs and the deck and success mantras and all right, that's good.’ I can stand in front of people and motivate, and inspire, and make them laugh, and tell stories. And that's all good. But I go, ‘I've got three words for you one question three words. And the three words and the one question are, what really matters?’ Now, what really matters is not your fucking tally. It's not your bank balance. It's not your biceps. It's not your hair colour. It's not your fucking lippy, or it's in my case, it's not your abs or and none of those things of themselves are bad. But I've been really lucky that I've worked with people who are in a really bad way, people in prison who got themselves there, of course, but then probably more impact for me was people with really bad injuries.  Lisa: That’s amazing. Craig: I work with a bloke at the moment, a mate of mine who got blown up in an accident. I trained him three days a week, and he was literally given zero chance of living like, or having any function similar to your mum.  Lisa: Wow.  Craig: And he started. He was in, like your mum, he was in a coma. I started, they said he'd be a quadriplegic. If he—firstly, they said he wouldn't live, and he lived in our luck out, mesmerised how that happened.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: Got through the operations, he got blown up by gas bottles, which were in the back of his unit while he was driving.  Lisa: Oh my god. Craig: That blew the car apart, that blew the roof off, they shattered windows for 800 meters in the houses. And he was given zero chance of living. And he was in a coma for a long time. And I'll go in and talk to him. And when he obviously was not awakened, all the stuff that you did, and I just say to him, that I don't know, like, that'd be gone. I don't know. Like, I don’t be guessing. I don't know, I might just get well enough to get out of here. And I'll start training him. I started training him in a wheelchair, with a broomstick. And so and the broomstick literally weighed, I don't know, maybe 100 grams. And so I would put the broomstick in his hands. And I would pull his hands away. So his arm’s away from his body.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: And I'd say now try and pull that towards you.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: And that's where we started.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: With a 100-gram broomstick.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Now it's three and a bit years later, I've trained him for three and a bit years.  Lisa: Wow. Craig: He is now walking with sticks. He drives himself to the gym. His brain function is fucking amazing.  Lisa: Oh my god. Craig: He’s still in constant pain. And he's got a lot of issues. But the bottom line is the dude who they went, you will never ever walk, you will never talk.  Lisa: You’ll never survive. Craig: They'll never be any—you'll never have any function, right?  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: So my two big perspective givers. That's one and the other one is—so...  Lisa: What a dude. Craig: What’s that? Lisa: What a legend. Craig: Yeah, he's amazing. He's amazing. So about 14 months ago, I was at the gym and I was training with my training partner, who's like me and he’s all buffed. He's in good shape. He’s fit. He doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, him and I are very similar. Anyway, one of the stupid things that he does is he takes I don't want to get in trouble. But he takes pre-workout, doesn't do drug. Don't do anything. I don't know. But anyway, he took a pre-workout. We're training and he's doing a set of chins. And he did 30 chins, Lisa, and he held his breath for the whole time because that's what he does. He thinks he gets more reps when he holds his breath. By the way, folks, not a great plan. Holds his breath for 30 reps. Lisa: He’s training his chemoreceptors. This for sure. Craig: Yeah, comes down, falls on his face on the floor. And I think he's having a seizure.  Lisa: Oh. Craig: And it had an instant cardiac arrest.  Lisa: Oh my god.  Craig: So, not a heart attack, a cardiac arrest. So, his heart stopped. So it took me kind of 20 seconds to realise it was that, and not... And there was—I won't describe what was going on with him.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: But as you can imagine, turning all kinds of colours... Lisa: Yep.  Craig: ...stuff coming out of his mouth. It was messy, right?  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: So, he was dead for 17 minutes.  Lisa: Oh, my God.  Craig: I worked on him for 10 until the ambos got there or the paramedics and God bless him. fricking amazing. But what's interesting is in that, firstly, that 17 minutes could have been 17 days. That's how clearly I remember those minutes.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And I'm on the floor, kneeling down next to one of my best friends in the world.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: And I'm doing compressions and breathing, and I'm trying to save his life.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And it's funny how in that moment, everything comes, without even trying, to everything comes screamingly into perspective about, ‘What is bullshit?’ Lisa: Yes.  Craig: What matters?  Lisa: Yes.  Craig: What fucking doesn't matter?  Lisa: Yes.  Craig: What I waste energy and attention on. And literally those seven, eight minutes. I mean, I think I had pretty good awareness but they really changed me.  Lisa: Yeah. I hear you. Craig: Nothing matters except the people I love.  Lisa: Exactly. Craig: I'll figure the rest out.  Lisa: Yep. It's an amazing story. Did he survive? Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's five-to-two here in Melbourne.  Lisa: And he's waiting for you?  Craig: We're training at five. Lisa: Brilliant. Say hi for me. Craig: He’s still an idiot.  Lisa: He’s awesome, he's lucky he got you.  Craig: He’s still an idiot, but at least he prays when he chins. Lisa: Yeah, but like just the experience I went through with my dad. And I haven't done a whole podcast on it, and I tend to, because the two weeks fighting for his life in the hospital and fighting up against a system that wouldn't let me do intravenous vitamin C in that case that I was trying to because he had sepsis, and fighting with every ounce of my body and every ounce of my will, and in knowing that, and for those—it was 15 days that we were there, and they all blend into one because there was hardly any sleep happening in that time, a couple hours here and there and I'd fall over. But they changed me forever, in the fact that because I'm a fixer, I like to fix things and people. And when we're in the fight, I’m the best person you want in your corner of the ring. If we're in a fight for your life, or not as an, like, I'm a paramedic, but if you want someone to fight for you, then I’m the biggest person to have in your corner. But when we lost that battle, man, I was broken. And to actually not to come out the other side and to have that win and to get him back and to save his life, especially knowing I had something that could have saved his life had I been able to give it to him from day one. And you said that about your friend who got blown up and you said, ‘Just get out of here, mate, no, take it from there.’ And that's what I was saying to my dad. And as he had, ‘You just get yourself—you just hang in there, dad, because I will do what I can do here, and I've got all my mates and my doctors and my scientists all lined up ready to go. As soon as I get you the hell out of this place, I will do whatever it takes to get you back.’ But I could not do anything in a critical care situation because I had no control over him, his body, what went into him. And it was a—he was on a ventilator and so on. And so that was out of my control, you know? And that's fricking devastating.  Craig: Yeah.  Lisa: To know that and to feel that. Craig: How did that change you? Like, how did that change you in terms of... Lisa: It's still an evolving process I think, Craig, and there's a burning desire in me to get that changed in our ICU for starters, to get recognition for intravenous vitamin C, which I've done like a five-part series on my podcast for status, but I'm working on other ideas and projects for that because we're talking thousands and thousands of doctors and scientists who have the proof that this helps with things like sepsis, like ADS, like pneumonia, and it's just being ignored. And it's, we’re just 20 years behind this is one of the reasons I do what I do, is because I know that the information, like going through that journey with my mum too, the information that latest in clinical studies, all of what the scientists are doing now and what's actually happening in clinical practice are just worlds apart. And with like a 20-year delay in from there to there, and the scientists are saying this, and the doctors at the cutting edge are saying this. And so things have to change. So that's changed me in a perspective because I've never been a political person. I don't want to really get—I love being in the positive world of change, and it's, do things. But I do feel myself going into this activism space in a little way because I need to get some changes happening and some systematic things and you know you're up against the big fight.  Craig: Yeah.  Lisa: This is a big base to take on. But I'll do what I can in my corner of the world, at least but it has changed. And all that matters to me now is my family and my friends, and then from a legacy perspective, is impacting the world massively with what I do know and the connections that I do have and bringing information like we've been hearing today and these very personal real stories to people's ears because it changes the way people have their own conversations and hence start to think. Craig: Well, I think also, and thanks for sharing that. That's it. Somebody's got to step up, and you're stepping up and quite often the things that we need to do to live our values are not the things we want to do.  Lisa: No, scary.  Craig: Like, Fuck this. Yeah, I'd rather watch Netflix too. But that's not what I'm about. So it's good that you recognise that and you step into that, but I think what's encouraging about this conversation for everyone is that neither of us, well, I was gonna say, particularly special, you're quite special with what you do. But even with what you do, as an elite athlete, really, you've just put in an inordinate amount of work. Like, you've done all of the things required to become elite and to become an exception, but in many other ways, like with me, you've got issues and bullshit and flaws. And that's why I think—I'm not saying this is a great podcast by any means that or this is great conversation because that's very fucking self-indulgent. But what I mean is, I think people connect with podcasts, conversations that are just that.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Where it's not like two people who are... Lisa: Scripted.  Craig: ...just shooting off like experts. It's like, yeah, we're both figuring it out, too.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And by the way, I'm a dickhead too. By the way, I don't know, I've got a lot of shit wrong. Don't worry about that. It's like, I'm just having my best guess. And I always say, even as a coach, I've never changed anyone. All I've done is influenced people, but I've never done the work for them. They've always done the work. So, everyone that I've coached that succeeded, it's because they did the work. Like I didn't run the race. I didn't lift the weight. I didn't play the sport. I didn't go to the Olympics. I didn't walk out onto the arena. I didn't do anything. I'm just the guy going, ‘Fuck, come on, you can do it.’ And like, here’s a plan and here’s—it's like, I'm just the theory guy. I don't put it into—the only life that I put it into practice in is my own. Lisa: Yeah. And that's powerful. And as a role model, too. I mean the shape that you're in and the stuff that you do, and you walk the talk, and those are the people that I want to listen to. And those are the people I want to learn from. Craig: Well, my dad, my dad used to say to me, a couple of it, my dad's like a cranky philosopher. But he used to say to me a couple of things. This is irrelevant. The first one but it's, ‘You can't go to university and get a personality', right. Which is funny because my dad's like, ‘And university, it's overrated'. I agree, dad.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Second thing.  Lisa: For most things. Craig: Second thing. He used to say, ‘I wouldn't trust accountants or financial planners who weren't rich'. Lisa: Or trainers who are overweight. Craig: It's like, I remember him saying to me, like a friend of his disrespect Toyota, but not a friend, but a dude he knew. He was a financial planner or an accountant. And he used to drive this old beaten up Corolla, and my dad's like, ‘Why would I listen to him?’ Like, look what he drives, like, if he knew anything about making money or maximising whatever.  Lisa:

Starting a business can be incredibly tricky. Statistics say about 80% or more of enterprises end up failing. If you’re a business owner or a founder, you know how there are so many factors to consider. Overcoming obstacles every step of the way is far from an easy feat. Moreover, starting a business requires a ton of research, but research alone won't guarantee success. So what's the secret? In this episode, Daryl Urbanski joins us to share the secret to building businesses and scaling them. You’ll learn about how his background taught him to be one of the leading business experts of this generation. He also discusses how to overcome obstacles and take your business to the next level. If you want to learn how to be a successful entrepreneur, tune in to this episode!   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries, to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Hear Daryl’s insights on raising children and lessons gained from martial arts. Learn the secret to overcoming obstacles and building successful businesses. Find out what you need to become an entrepreneur.   Resources NMN Bio by Elena Seranova Lifespan by David Sinclair The Dream of Life by Alan Watts Learn more about Daryl’s group coaching and pay-for-performance model! The Best Business Podcast with Daryl Urbanski   Episode Highlights [7:02] How Daryl Started Out Daryl was orphaned as a kid, and his stepdad was an entrepreneur. His father showed Daryl that an entrepreneur was someone who is of service and respected by their community. He wanted to be like that too, so he shovelled driveways and did a newspaper route for money at a young age. Since Daryl was an orphan, he felt the need to be self-sufficient and self-directed. At 17, he joined a company that was one of the early pioneers of early marketing, got interested in growing businesses, and the rest is history. [10:45] Katimavik Daryl was part of Katimavik, a Canadian social program in which ten children aged 17-21 live, travel and work across Canada.   Katimavik was a turning point in Daryl's life.   Daryl initially lived in a dangerous city. Katimavik was his way out.   It was a source of many experiences for Daryl.   [21:52] Youth Development In raising his daughter, Daryl has a thing called neglect under supervision, where he tries to carefully neglect her in some ways to let her develop, grow and overcome obstacles. He won’t stop her from falling, but he’ll try his best to catch her. Growing up in a city is more about surviving in social dynamics than the social and environmental dynamics you find when you grow up on a farm. Children would benefit from more physical activity in their lives. They'd develop differently, and would not feel the need to lash out violently. Children need a better sense of responsibility and consequences — power and skill are earned. [27:17] Lessons from Martial Arts  Martial arts teaches progression: your skills will develop over time, through with observation and training. You learn about people and how your emotions impact decision-making. Martial arts isn’t just about training but also about recovery and rest. The best way to get out of a bad situation is to prevent it from happening. When he first learned martial arts, he thought it was about doing things to people. In reality, it’s about self-control and boundaries. Martial arts also taught Daryl about overcoming obstacles and testing himself. [39:04] The Secret to Building Businesses There are many great places to start, and one of the hardest ones is getting something new going. Always start with a market. Find a problem you’re willing to solve for people. The purpose of a business is to locate a prospect and turn that into a customer who returns. Figure out what problem you want to solve, then design it and do it in a scalable way. The critical success factors for businesses are self-efficacy, strategic planning, marketing, strategy, market intelligence, money management, business operating systems, business intelligence and government and economic factors. [46:05] The Next Level Ask yourself where the customers are and where they want to go. Can you take them there? Fix what makes your customers unhappy, find out how to get busy and aim for consistency. What helps your team grow is documentation and training. Create systems. How do you communicate your vision and keep the team productive? [50:23] Getting Out of the Startup Gate  The hardest part is dealing with the imposter syndrome and self-doubt. It’s all about managing stress and avoiding burnout. Many people sacrifice their health to make money but end up spending all their money trying to get their health back. It is better to collect money first and then develop a product. [56:39] Daryl’s Current Core Focus  Now, Daryl is focused on group coaching. For people who want more dedicated attention, he has a virtual VP of Marketing service. He also has a pay for performance model, where people only have to pay if they make a profit. [1:00:05] On Keywords and Google Trends Keywords can tell you how many people are thinking about this particular thing. Keywords are a powerful tool from a market intelligence standpoint. From keywords, you learn what people are looking for, where they are and more. Make your marketing about your customer. [1:04:03] What You Need to Be an Entrepreneur  Be transparent. People need to trust you for them to give you their money. You’re going to need all eight success factors, but most importantly, answer the question: ‘What problem are you solving’?   7 Powerful Quotes from this Episode ‘Life is full of challenges and hurdles, and through overcoming those we develop our character’. ‘Pain often…makes you stronger and makes you more able to withstand—that’s what exercise is all about. You hurt yourself, you get stronger’. ‘It’s not just training, but it’s also how to recover and rest…Silence is part of music just as much as music is’. ‘Prevention is so much better than cure…the best solution is, don't let them do it to you in the first place. Know it, recognise the signs and protect yourself before it happens’. ‘It’s not even about being the best, the smartest, the brightest. It’s about making the least mistakes’. ‘You don’t know what you’re capable of until you do it’. ‘Evolution is about growth and challenge and overcoming obstacles’.   About Daryl Daryl Urbanski, Founder, President of BestBusinessCoach.ca & Host of The Best Business Podcast is best known for his ability to create seven-figure, automated income streams from scratch. First as Senior Marketing Director for Praxis LLC, now Neurogym, he generated over USD 1.6 Million in under 6 months with a single marketing strategy. This became almost USD 7.5 Million in just under 3 years. After repeating this success with multiple clients, he set on a mission to help create 200 NEW multi-millionaire business owners. How? They’ll do better when they know better. Daryl has quickly climbed the entrepreneurial ladder, gaining respect from thousands of business owners worldwide. From author to speaker, marketer to coach, Daryl's multifaceted business approach sets him apart as one of the leading business experts of his generation.   Enjoy the Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they overcome the obstacles in their lives or start their own successful businesses. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast! Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: You're listening to Pushing The Limits with your host, Lisa Tamati. Thank you once again for joining me. Today I have another exciting podcast with a man named Daryl Urbanski. Now, Daryl is a very well known business coach. So today, quite something different for you. This is all about what it takes to be an entrepreneur. Daryl is also a martial artist. So, he uses a lot of analogies from his sporting as we do in this podcast, from a sporting life and how that helps him in his career and also helping others build businesses. Now, he's helped over 1,000 businesses in his career in 50 different industries, and this guy knows how to grow and scale and overcome problems. So, he's a real expert in this area, and I really enjoyed our conversation.  Before we head over to Daryl in Vietnam, just wanted to remind you, if you're into finding out all about your genes, and what they have to say about you and how you can influence your genes to live your optimal lifestyle and be your best self, then make sure you check out what we do in our Epigenetics Program. So, this is all about understanding your genes and how they are expressing at the moment how the environment is influencing them, and then optimising everything, from your food to your exercise right through to your mindset, your social, your career, all aspects of life are covered in this really revolutionary programme.  Now, this programme is not something that we've put together; this has been put together by literally hundreds of scientists from 15 different science disciplines, all working together for over 20 years to bring this really next level cutting edge information about your genes and how you can find out how to optimise them. No longer do you need trial and error; you can work out what the best diet is, when the best time to eat is, exactly the right foods to eat right down to the level of, 'eat bok choy, don't eat spinach', that type of thing. And as—but it's so much more than just a food and exercise. It also looks at your health and anything that may be troubling you and future and how to deal with it. So, it's a really comprehensive programme, and I'd love you to check it out. You can visit us at lisatamati.com, hit the Work with Us button and you'll see our Epigenetics Program.  We've also got our online run coaching as normal, customised, personalised, run training system, where we make a plan specific to you and to your needs and your goals. And you get a session with me—a one on one session with me and a full video analysis of your running so that we can help you improve your style, your form, your efficiency, plus a full-on plan that includes all your strength training, your mobility workouts, and great community, of course. So make sure you check that out at runninghotcoaching.com.  And the last thing before we go over to the show, I have just started a new venture with Dr Elena Seranova, who is a molecular biologist from the UK, originally from Russia, and she is a expert in autophagy in stem cells, and she has made a supplement called NMN. Now, you may have heard of this nicotinamide mononucleotide. It's a big fancy word, I know. But you will be hearing more about this. It's been on the Joe Rogan show; it's been on Dr Rhonda Patrick show, some big names now talking all about this amazing longevity compound, anti-aging compound. Now, this is based on the work of Dr David Sinclair, who wrote the book, Lifespan: Why We Age and or How We Age and Why We Don't Need To. He is a Harvard Medical School researcher who has been studying longevity and anti-aging and is at the really the world's forefront of all the technologies to do with turning the clock back and who doesn't want to do that?  So I've teamed up with Dr Elena to import nicotinamide mononucleotide, our supplement from NMN bio into New Zealand and Australia. So if you are keen to get your hands on some because this was not available prior in New Zealand, I wanted a reputable company, a place that I could really know that the supplements that I'm getting is quality, that it's been lab-tested, that it was a scientist behind it, a lab behind it, and this is a real deal.  Now, I've been on this now for four months and so as my mom and my husband, and I've noticed massive changes in my life. Certainly, weight loss has been one of those things, that stubborn last couple of kilos that I've been fighting have gone without any muscle loss which has been really very interesting. It improves also cardiovascular health, your memory cognition, the speed of your thinking; all the things that start to decline as you age. And the reason this is happening is because we have declining levels of NAD, another big word, nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. And this NMN is a precursor for NAD.  So, lots of big words, lots of science. f you want to find more about that, you can head over to lisatamati.com, under the Shop button, you will find out all about our anti-aging supplement NMN, and we're about to launch a new website which will be nmnbio.nz, but that's not quite up there yet, but it probably is by the time this podcast comes out. So, check that one out to nmnbio.nz, bio, just B-I-O. If you want to stop—well, not completely stop aging, but if you want to slow the clock down and get the best information that's out there then make sure you read Dr David Sinclair's book, Lifespan it's an absolute game-changer. You'll be absolutely amazed at some of the stuff that's happening and what they consider my mononucleotide can already do. So check that out. Okay, without further ado over to the show with Daryl Urbanski.  Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing The Limits. Today I have the lovely Daryl Urbanski with me who is sitting in Danang in Vietnam. And Daryl, this is gonna be a little bit of a different episode because usually I've got some health science-y thing or some are elite athlete doing—well, not to say that Daryl was not an elite athlete because he is into martial arts. But Daryl’s specialty and what he's come to share with you guys today is, he is a business expert and a marketing expert, and also a mindset expert, I would like to say. So Daryl, welcome to the show. Fantastic to have you.  Daryl Urbanski: Yes, it's an honour and pleasure to be here. We've had some good conversations, like minds, two birds of a feather. Just an honour and a pleasure to be here. Lisa: Yes. Thank you so much, Daryl, for coming on today. So, Daryl and I cross pass by his lovely lady who organises half my life as far as the business side of things goes. So it's been a fantastic liaison. And—but Daryl was actually here on his own accord. And he's—so Daryl, I want you to give us a bit of a brief background, where have you come from, how did you end up in Vietnam? And what do you do for a living? Daryl: Right, so I'm Canadian. So I'm from Canada, travelled all over the world, and I don't know if it's too short. So that's where I come from, I ended up in Vietnam. That's a long story. So I guess I'm Canadian. I'm in Vietnam. I help businesses or websites get customers and keep them to make more money. And that's really kind of it in a nutshell. It's been a long journey.  When I was a kid I was an orphan and my adopted family, actually my step adopted dad's the one that really raised me and his brother, my uncle. We would visit him every time we went to Toronto, and he was a bit of an entrepreneur. He also did some property management in that and every time we went to visit I almost felt like he was kind of like the Godfather. What I meant was people were always coming by with like, a gift basket or to thank him for something. So the impression that was put in my mind was like to be an entrepreneur is to be of service to the community, and to get people's respect and adoration for the good that you're bringing. And that was really like—I know, there's all sorts of different like your salesmen, and everyone's got different images. But that was when I was a young kid, I was like, ‘Wow, I want to be valued by my community, too’. So that really laid an impression on me at a young age.  Again, I didn't have the lemonade stand, I didn't mow lawn, but I did shovel driveways. We have so much snow in Canada in the wintertime. We would shovel driveways for money. I did have a newspaper route. And just at a young age, I just kind of felt, maybe because I was an orphan, but I felt the need to be self-sufficient and self-directed. Yes...  Lisa: How to be your own ship, really.  Daryl: Yes, sort of. Yes, I just—I also had issues like I did air cadets when I was a kid. There's some other kids, they were using their authority outside of cadets to try to, like, lord over people and stuff. And right away, I kind of learned at a young age, you kind of have to be careful—you can manage up, let's just put it that way. It's not just managing down, but you can manage up, and you can choose who's above you too, it's a two-way street. So I really laid an impression on the young age. And then when I was 17, I added a co-op in university with the company called marketme.ca and they were just one of the early pioneers of online marketing. Got me into the whole business growth avenue and that... Lisa: The rest is history. Yes, now that's fabulous. So you from like, in my young years, like I was an entrepreneur from the get-go. I never fit in in anybody's corporate square box. Tried—I tried, I failed. Did you have that feeling like you were just outside of like, you just wanted to be in charge? Because you've been in business, basically, since you were 17 years old. And you've learned a heck of a lot on this massive business journey that you've been on. And you've helped—I know that you've helped over 1,000 businesses in 50 plus industries. And you've really grown into this role of helping businesses scale up and grow and develop your own systems around this.  But did you have an idea when you were that 17-year old that this was where you were going, and this is the direction? Or has it sort of meandered throughout time? Daryl: No, I was—because I think I had a lot of, they say, like everything, I'm not maybe everything that I am and not knowing my biological roots, and that as a kid left me really to kind of be given the path of self-discovery, you could say from a young age. A lot of confusion, maybe anger in my younger years as well. But what really made the difference, at least in the earliest days, was that when I was 17, I ended up at Canadian government programme called Katimavik, which means ‘meeting places’. Inuit, which a lot of people call them Eskimos. But now we say the people of the North, the natives of the North they’re Inuit, which means snow people. Eskimo means meat-eater or flesh-eater. So they don't like being called Eskimos, you call them Inuit, but Katimavik is an Inuit word, and it means ‘meeting place’. And it's a government programme that's been on and off over the last 40-50 years in Canada.  And really what the—when I did it with the terms of the programme where it's a social programme sponsored by the government, 17 to 21-year-old youth, and then what they do is they put a group of 10 kids together, and the group of 10 kids is supposed to represent Canada. So, what that means is that they grab some from the east coast, the west coast from up north they try to make it, so it's representative. Like we had half guys have girls. French, we have three French speakers, right? Then the English speakers. We had an Inuit guy Kenny, who when he came, he actually didn't even speak English. We always knew when the phone was for Kenny because we didn't—it all be like, '[mumbles] Kenny this is for you, I don't know what's happening, either it's a bad connection, or this is someone who talks in their language'.  And that programme, what we did—when I did it was we spent three months in British Columbia, three months in Alberta, and three months in Quebec and in every province, there was a house. In that house, there is a project manager, project leader... Lisa: Wow. Daryl: ...basically he was someone that would go to the house, and they were there, the whole duration of the programme. And this isn't a pitch for the programme, but I feel like it was—my life was really before and after.  Lisa: Wow. Daryl: Because life skills I got from this...  Lisa: That's cool.  Daryl: ...so every place would have a project leader, and they would organise full-time work for all ten kids. And you were like a volunteer full-time worker, and in exchange, the government and I think this businesses may be paid a reduced hourly wage, I don't really know the details of it. But you worked for free, and in exchange, the government paid your grocery bills, they paid your rent and your travel expenses, and you got 20 bucks a week for like toothpaste and whatever else you wanted. And that was—it was a fantastic programme. I learned so much when I was in Alberta and British Columbia. I worked at a native band office, which is in Canada, we have a lot of native land, and that's land, like, we were the original immigrants. We took over the landmass, and then we gave the natives, ‘This is your land’, and so it's like a country within a country, and a band office is like their government office.  Lisa: Right. Daryl: So, I actually worked at an Indian band office, Similkameen Valley band office and Iwe helped build sweat lodges. We did all sorts of stuff. I work there newsletter, helped communicate with the community. In Alberta, I was a seventh-grade teacher's assistant at a middle school, and a social worker assistant and I worked with a librarian as well. And then in Quebec, I was actually a mayor's assistant for three small town, 150 people. But you had a full-time job in each place, and then after work when you came home, the 10 of you were basically instantly signed up for any community events that were going on.  I remember in the small town of Karamea we built something like 20 out of the 25 of their Christmas floats for their Christmas parade. We did soup kitchens, music festivals, like, you name it, and there's just like, instantly—if there was something out of the community like the project leader would know about it and just drag us, and we just show up be like, 'Hey', and it was like ten pairs of hands. Like just we were coming just to make things happen.  So every three months, you had a full-time job, evenings and weekends, except for Sunday. You basically anything in the community, you were instantly signed up as a volunteer, and every two and for two weeks, every three month period, you would build it, you would stay with a local family for two weeks to like, see how they live. And that was really insightful because I didn't know any other family or how the family operated. But then I got to see inside the workings, like,  I remember this one family, I stayed with the three, the parents, the father was in finance, and he was always, like, his suit and his hair's so proper. He was very strict and very like this. And his kids on the other side, they had like mohawks, spike collars and black nails and eyes. And it was so funny because I felt like it was a yin yang. I felt like the kids were the exact opposite in the extreme of the parents, and just watching the dynamics of people. And also every week, a boy and a girl would stay home from their full-time jobs, and they would be the mum and dad in the house because we had a budget like for groceries and they would have to cook and clean. So that nine months experience when I was 17, I came out of that with more life experience than a lot of people and… Lisa: What an incredible programme and how lucky...  Daryl: Yes. Lisa: ...for you, like, because so many kids go off the rails, as they say at that point yet, and they get lost and to have the sort of a structure of development and experience must have been a real game-changer for you. Daryl: Yeah, I mean, we moved around a bit when I was a kid, but we ended up settling in a city called Kingston, Ontario, which also happened to be the penitentiary capital of Canada. And so it was a unique community because you've got Queen's University, which is one of the top three universities of Canada. You've got the second-largest military base. It's almost one of the largest government employment cities. So you've got these high-income earners in the public sector, and then you've also got this great university. Some of the largest businesses out of Canada, actually, even in Kingston, like we've got one of the largest real estate investment trusts. There's a company that makes the shafts for all the pro golf clubs outside of Kingston. It's kind of weird, you got these unique massive spikes of success. But then because of the penitentiaries, a lot of families move to Kingston to be closer to the family. So then you have these areas where there's like when you get out of jail, you just settle in the town that you're in, and so it's weird, and I actually didn't think I was gonna see my 21st birthday.  Lisa: Wow. Daryl: I was in high school, and I didn't—I had a friend that was found in a lake rolled in a carpet...  Lisa: Oh, gosh. Daryl: ...and things like that. And I didn't think I was really gonna make it.  Lisa: So, really dangerous areas to be growing up as a youth. Daryl: But then, I always say when you live in a city, you don't live in that city, you live in your bubble in that city. So my bubble was mixed. It was a mixed bag. I was in the middle—I grew up in a nice suburb, but through school and all that, I got involved with lots of different things. But in this group one day, they spoke at my high school, and they're talking about, 'Yo, we're getting to travel Canada for free'. Like, I was like, 'Hey, that sounds great. I need to get out of here. I don't see a future. I don't see a future', and I signed up and that was what I did. And then after that because of being involved and so I almost got kicked out.  Now, after the first two months, I was on my last warning, you get three warnings, and you get sent home. And every time you make them, you have to write a commitment to improve. And I was like, I just thought I think that project leader didn't like me, but I was like, on it by a hair. And it was so funny because I remember when I made the first three months, we moved to the second location, I was like, 'Wow even if I get kicked out now. Now I've learned everything that I could learn from this programme'. Three months, Alberta and I met all sorts of new people and new experiences. And I was like, 'Wow, I made it to six months. Now that I'm going to Quebec, now I've learned everything, I mean, so good'. And then the next three months, and then I finished it like, 'Wow, I made it to the end. Now I've learned...  Lisa: You're an expert. Daryl: ...programme, right. But now here it is years and years later, and I met because they were like family, the other ten kids, right? And I still catch up with them every now and then, like I learned through, 'Why? You got a kid? You got three kids'? Lisa: In other words, we all say we're no’s all the time. And then we're actually just at the beginning of our next journey.  And it's all stepping stones to the next part of learning and stuff. But what a fantastic I wish we had a programme like that here because I mean, it must cost a lot to run and be really difficult to organise. But man, they could change lives, say for kids who are just lost and don't quite know what's the next step and how many of them are be. Daryl: It's a fantastic programme. It's actually I don't think it's running in Canada anymore. Again, because of the cost that it gets government funding, it gets taken away. The Trudeau lineage is the one that started—they tend to be behind it. There was a big scandal in Canada 'we something charity' and it sounds like that they were going to give a billion dollars in one organisation that does something like that. But of course, it got into, like, where's money going and people arguing and is that a good use and I think nothing happened at it. But it's a shame because... Lisa: It changes your life. Daryl: Well, I think right now there's a ton of people, especially the younger kids who need a sense of responsibility. I think in some ways, I don't want to go on a big rant. But I think life is full of challenges and hurdles. And it's like, through overcoming those we develop our character. And some people, they just have such a cushy like...  Lisa: Yes.  Daryl: .Things have become so politically correct. We've softened all the hard edges. I remember seeing in Toronto, they replaced a bunch of the kids playgrounds, because kids were falling and getting hurt.  Lisa: Yes, yes.  Daryl: Like, yes, but that's, like, you climb a tree, you fall, like, you don't... Lisa: There's no consequence to anything anymore. And there's no, like, yes. Daryl: It's like participation awards versus achievement awards. Like, we really, in some ways, become a society of participation awards versus achievement awards. And that's... Lisa: I totally get it. I totally agree. Because I mean, I'm showing my age, but I grew up in the early 70s and stuff, and it was a rough ride. I'm lucky to be alive. Daryl: Not everyone. Not everyone made it in adulthood. Yes. Lisa: And, but you know what, I wouldn't change that for the world because I don't want to be wrapped up in cotton wool and bounce around like a bunch of marshmallows for the want of a better expression. I want to be able to climb trees and cycle. I had to laugh yesterday. We live in a little village that, sort of, no police around here. And you've got all sorts in, and it's a lovely village, it's a sort of a beachy resort-y place. But you get the kids, they got no helmets on, and the other ones are on scooters, and there's three of them hanging off it and other people with their youths, and the kids are on the back, which is all illegal, right?  Daryl: Right. Lisa: And I'm not saying it is good, but I do have to smile because it reminds me of my childhood because that's where... Daryl: A little bit recklessness, a little bit of foolishness. We don't want it, but the world has real limits.  Lisa: Yes. Daryl: And especially as a parent, like I have a daughter now and it's like, I call it careful neglect. I try to carefully neglect her in some ways to force her to develop and grow.  Lisa: Beautiful. Daryl: It's like neglect under supervision, that's probably the best way to do it. Because if I always do it for her, and then I'm not there like they say kids who grew up with a single parent tend to be more independent than kids that have two parents, although kids with two parents tend to do better overall. I want a blend of that. The kids with single parents, they are more independent because that's expected of them. There's not all—you can't...  Lisa: backup.  Daryl: It's not all the swaddling.  Lisa: Yes, no, I totally agree. And like, not even just for kids, but like dealing with my mum with her disability, I had to—and people would criticise me heavily, but I used—I make her do the hard stuff. Like, if she's struggling to get out of a chair at night and she's tired I don't get up to help her and not because I'm an asshole but because I need her to learn which muscle it is to push and people would, like when we're out in public that'd be standing there watching me watch her struggling and I'd get abuse sometimes. Like, ‘why aren't you helping’? Daryl: Yes, yes. Lisa: That's all I'm doing. I have to do it all the time with her because I'm teaching her new difficult tasks all the time. I'm having to put her through some painful regimes and training. And because I've been an athlete all my life, I understand that pain often, when in training, in difficult training sessions and stuff make you stronger, and make you more able to withstand. I mean, that's what exercise is all about: you hurt yourself, you get stronger, you hurt yourself, you get stronger. And with mum's training, it's very often like that. So okay, she's not a kid, but it's the same principle. I have to let her go.  Or winching out when she got her driver's license, and I would let her drive my car and go around town. I mean, I'm still panicking half the time, a nice—and for the start, I would shadow her, like from behind. She didn't know that I was following her way right through the town where she went so that she had that backup. But she didn't know she had that backup. Daryl: As I actually had been saying that to Kathy, but my daughter, I'm like, I won't stop her from falling, but I'll do my best to always catch her.  Lisa: Yes. Daryl: I'm not gonna try to stop because sometimes you're like, 'Your daughter and you try to pad the room'. And I'm like, 'I gave her a pair of scissors'. This is when she was really young, gave her scissors, 'Don't, she'll cut herself', and I'm like, 'Yes, and it'll be a valuable lesson'. 'You're right'. And I'm right here, and it'll be a vet ship. She'll learn a valuable lesson; I don't know if she doesn't, I feel like that's partially where we have things like all these school shootings and that. These kids aren't growing up on farms. They've never been kicked by a horse or a goat, or they've never hit themselves in the foot with an axe. So they playing these video games of extreme violence and sexual violence in the movies and they feel these emotions, like really common as a teenager. They have access to such powerful tools.  I'm Canadian, but in the States, they sell guns at Walmart and so you've got a kid that's angry, he's got no real sense of the reality of the world around him in terms of like, what happens if you fall out of a tree and break your ankle, that's so distant because they grew up in a city and it's just, it's more just surviving and social dynamics versus a social and environmental dynamic.  Lisa: I totally agree. Daryl: And I go to school, and they lash out with guns, I really feel that if those kids grew up with more hard labour in their lives, more physical—even if they just had more physical training conditioning. You play hockey, you get hit too hard, like something like that, it would have less school shootings because they still feel the same emotions, but one, they'd have different outlets, and they would also kind of respect it better. It's like my jujitsu. You mentioned I do jujitsu.  Lisa: Yes. Daryl: I feel like it's very—when you guys are new, you get a lot of these strong guys, and they try to tough on everybody. And they just, it's useless. And they get beaten up by the more skilled ones. So then when they develop skill, they're kind of like a 'Hey, like, I know what it's like to be the one getting beaten up'. Lisa: Yes. Which is the correct method. Daryl: Like, the power, the skill is earned. So, you treat it with better respect. Lisa: Humility is always a good thing. And I think learning.. I've taken up skimboarding with you, and I don't bounce very well at 52. But it's really important that I do something that I'm really useless at.and I'm having to learn a new skill. And I sometimes ski myself because if I don't get the stage, that's when you start losing those skills. And I don't want to lose any of my abilities, and I've still got good reactions and stuff like that, so I want to keep them. So I constantly want to push myself outside that boundary.  So let's dive in a little bit to your martial arts, and then we'll get onto your business side of things because what you've done the years is just incredible. What sort of lessons have you learned—I mean, that was one—but what sort of lessons have you learned from doing Jiu Jitsu in the discipline that's required for this very tough sport? Daryl: Yes, that's great. So yes, I did jujitsu for about six, seven, maybe eight years. I haven't trained, probably in a couple years now. I've been doing more kind of CrossFit and my own physical training, but I think the lessons are through any—you learn about progression over time. You learn things like the fundamentals are fundamental. You kind of learn the basics, but then you get bored with those, and you want to learn the fancy, advanced stuff, but then it's hard to apply it and get it to work. And then through just time and observation and training with the greatest you understand it really is about the fundamentals. Virtue is doing the common uncommonly well.  The fundamentals that we learned are the stuff that's actually working against the highest level black belts. The basics that you learn, you see that happen at the highest level World Championships in the biggest competitions, and the really great to the ones that can do the basics and just walk through everyone with them. Like, 'How are they able to do that so well'? Everybody knows what's happening. Everyone knows what to expect, but they can't stop it from happening anyhow.  Another lesson was it's a game of inches in the beginning because jujitsu is kind of like a submission wrestling, submission grappling.It's not so much punch and kick.It's more about pull, roll, and just and using things like gravity. So there's things about drilling how practise makes perfect. You learned the rule, like 10,000 hours that it's if I've been training for 200 hours, and you've been training 10 hours, generally speaking, I have a major advantage. If I've been training 2000 hours, you've been training 100 hours, typically speaking, I'm gonna just mop the floor with you because I've—there's nuance detail and you can almost endlessly drill into the fundamentals.  And then there's just the progress. You've talked about learning new skills. Last year, I learned how to handstand walk. I can now handstand walk about 20 feet, I'm gonna be 38 in a couple of months.  Lisa: Wow, I can't do that.  Daryl: Yes.  Lisa: I'm jealous. Daryl: It’s specifically for the skill development, for the neurological developments, to like to balance in a totally different way and physical development. So I mean, you just see you learn about people, you learn about how your emotions impact your decision making in certain respects. You learn about how it's not just training, but it's also how to recover and rest. And we talked about this I think before I interviewed you for my podcast, like, silence is part of music just as much as music is, the difference is it's intentional. Lisa: Yes. Daryl: Silences, intention. So it's about doing things with intent. Taking a concept like I want to learn and get good at this and breaking into pieces. And I was talking about this to my friend yesterday. Actually, I forget how it came up. But he's talking about something, and work, and the situation, and how to avoid, and I remember I was training and I was fortunate to do some training with Rickson Gracie in my early parts of my training career, legendary fighter guy.  And I remember I kept getting caught in these triangle chokes. Triangle choke is a type of choke. And I kept getting caught in these triangle chokes. I remember asking, like, 'How do I get out of it'? He says, 'Well, don't let them put you into it'. I'm like, 'Yes, I know. But I already got into it. Now what do I do'? he's like, 'Don't let them put you into it'. And I just wanted—I wanted the cure, and I was like, 'Yes, but I want it' and there are, there's some things you can do. But the real answer is...  Lisa: Prevention Daryl: ...prevention is so much better than cure. Like, well it's good... Lisa: Great principle. Daryl: You're in it, like, you gotta panic, you got two or three options, you got to panic, you're gonna spend a lot of energy, you're gonna flail and struggle, it's gonna be close. We can talk about how to do it. But really, the best solution is, don't let them do it to you in the first place. Note and recognise the signs and protect yourself before it happens. Lisa: That is a great law for the whole of the health paradigm that I live under. Daryl: Yes. How do I deal with heart problems?  Lisa: Prevention, prevention.  Daryl: Prevention. Yes, exactly. And you know proactivity. Lisa: Yes, occasionally,you will still get caught out and you will still and then you want to know those tricks. But in the first line, let's learn prevention and then we'll look at how do we get out of this mess? Daryl: And another really—which kind of ties in and then we can if you want to move on, move on. But this one, I think is also really, really, really important. When I first learned martial arts, I always thought it was about doing things to other people, I'm going to do this too, or I'm going to use your leverage against you. I'm gonna do this to the world. What I've really realised is two things. One, it's not even necessarily about doing things. It's about two things it's about not doing things externally, it's about self-control. It's about boundaries.  So we just talked about 'Don't let him put you into it'. That means that I have to have boundaries around things. Will I let him grab me here? Well I’ll not allow that. Well, I let him grab me there. And I'll be like, 'Okay, whatever. And I'm going to try to do some'. So again, when people start and forgive me, I don't want to go on a huge long rant on this. But when you start, I'm going to do this to you, going to do that to you and I'm trying to do this...  Lisa: You got to be kidding. Daryl: ...and so I don't even care what you're doing to me. When you get—later, it's like what do I accept? What are my boundaries?  Lisa: Wow.  Daryl: What situations do I let myself enter into? And that was—and then the other thing is that a lot of times it's not about what you do. It's not even about winning. It's about who makes the fewest mistakes.  Lisa: Wow.  Daryl: It's really—it's not even about being the best, the smartest, the brightest. It's about making the least mistakes.  Lisa: Wow... Daryl: In this situation, how many doors do I open for my opponent?  Lisa: I totally...  Daryl: These things are great, right?  Lisa: Yes, yes, yes. Daryl: There’s just me posing on the world and more about controlling myself.  Lisa: Yes.  Daryl: And am I allowing myself to be manipulated this way? Am I allowing myself to be grabbed here? Am I allowing his energy to mess with my mindset? Lisa: Wow, that is gold. Daryl: In a tournament, I've seen them lose the match before it even begins. Get you two guys step up, and the rest get in there, and they like their eyeballing on each other.  Lisa: Yes. Daryl: You see one guy like and he's just kind of coward. Like he lost before we even get started. So... Lisa: I haven’t seen that in ultramarathons are—another sporting analogy, but I've seen when people start bargaining with themselves and you do during an ultra. You start saying, 'Well, if I just get to there, I'll be happy with my results’. Or if you start to negotiate with yourself as how far you can get. And when I'm when I see people going, 'Well, I've at least done more than I've ever done before and therefore it's a success'. And when I start to hear talk like that, I know we're in the battle, like we are in the battle. And if they don't change the mindset, they're not going to because they're no longer in that, 'I'm gonna do this, come hell or high water there in the' Well, it's okay to fail and it is okay to fail. But in the battle, you don't want to be in that mindset. You want to be in that mindset, like, 'I'm going for this and I'm giving it everything I have.’  When you start to negotiate with yourself where ‘It would be okay if I got to that point, and therefore this is the longest I've ever run and therefore that's still a success'. When you start doing that type of bargaining with yourself, you're in deep shit basically because you've got to tune your psychology around too because otherwise, you're going to give yourself a way out.  I remember when I was running in the 220k race in the Himalayas that extreme altitude and I had a point where I just completely broke after going up the second path, and it was about—I'd been out there for 40 plus hours in a massive snowstorm. I had hypothermia. I had altitude sickness, asthma. I was just completely good enough reasons to be pulling out. And one of my guys came back to me, and I said, 'I think it's only two kilometres to the top of the mountain because you're calculating in your head'. And he came back and said, 'No, it's six kilometres to go'. And that just completely broke my mentality because six kilometres, I was going out 3k an hour, it was two hours of hell, and I couldn't, and it broke me. And I just fell into a heap and started bawling my eyes out, and everybody was giving me permission to give up. They were like, huddling around, 'You're amazing. We're so proud of you and you did everything you could', and then there was one guy. And he came over, and he shocked me, and he wasn't smiling, and he wasn't patting me on the back, and he was like, ‘Get the F up now’.  Daryl: You're so close. Lisa: ‘You're so close, you're not failing, and I'm not letting you fail and get your ass up off the ground. And I'm going to stay here with you. And I'm going to walk you up top of that mountain’. And that was key because it got me over that psychological break—I broke, but he picked me up, and he got me back on my feet. And I followed his instructions. I just did what he told me to do, put one foot in front of the other, and he got me over that hump, literally. And it's this type of stuff that you learn through sports; it's just so valuable. Daryl: It's just overcoming obstacles and just testing yourself. You don't know what you're capable of until you do it. You can spend all day reading a book about tennis, but until you're out there actually playing it. And there's learning you have to learn, you can learn through reading through lecture through conversation, personal experiences, and through other people's experiences and that's... Lisa: That's what this is about. Daryl: Yes, I mean Alan Watts has this great video called The Dream of Life. Imagine if every night you went to sleep, you could dream, however many years of life that you wished and because it's your dream, you can make them as wonderful as you want it. And so for the first—let's say you're dreaming 100 years of life every night. And maybe you do this for a couple of years, every night for a few years, you're dreaming 100 years of life. And all these lives that you're living, they're all the most filled with all the pleasures and all the wonderful things that you could possibly want. And what do you think would happen? And over time, you would kind of get bored, and you would want some risk and some adversity. And then eventually, you would want to be able to dream and go to sleep, and not know the outcome. ‘I want to go to sleep. I want to have this adventure, but I don't want to know the outcome’.  And that's kind of like that's almost like life. And if you could dream a lifetime every night in your—in a life of eighty years, you could possibly dream the life you're living right now. And that's the whole thing of evolution. Evolution is about growth and challenge and overcoming obstacles and... Lisa: Yes, obstacles like phone calls coming in the middle of your podcast.  Daryl: But, we got—everyone’s with me. Lisa: I think people listening to my podcasts are quite used to interruption. You just cannot stop the world from functioning half the time like somebody's phone is somewhere.  Daryl: Murphy's Law, you just gotta keep on recording. If you wait for perfection, it's never gonna happen.  Lisa: Exactly. You could panic now and start editing for Africa or another way, you could just get it out there and apologise for what happened, which we'll do. So, Daryl, I want to move now because I think there was absolutely brilliant and really insightful.  I want to move into the business side of things. And you've had a really successful business. You've taken lots of businesses to the million-dollar in a plus businesses from scratch, you've done that over and over again. You've helped people scale up and develop these systems and mine the data and work out all this complicated world of online, which is I'd struggle with daily so I want to know from you, how the heck do you do this? And what are some of your greatest secrets from building businesses over a long period of time now? Daryl: That's a great question. There's a lot of different places to start; I think one of the hardest places and where I've had the most failure myself is getting something new going because well, one, it's just not my superpower. But if you've got someone that's got a proven concept, and that's really how in the beginning, I should look it up.  But I got my seven-step rollout system. It's like you always start with a market first. So that means you always have to start with a need and or want so because you can't—the idea of selling ice to Eskimos. It's not about doing mental gymnastics and pushing something on someone that they don't want. That might happen in the world. There might be people that invest a lot of time, energy and resources in that but I have no interest. It's really tough to be like I'm gonna generate this demand. It's not there. The demand already exists. People already want to feel beautiful, people already want to be entertained, people already want to travel and to explore the world. So these needs and wants and that already exists. The idea is that you want to stand in front of it. The demand and want is already there and it's constantly evolving. And every time someone a business comes out, and you create a new product or service to fix a problem there'll be a new problem.  Lisa: Yes.  Daryl: Because now, like before the internet, the issue was how are we going to have these conversations like we can? You’re New Zealand, I'm in Vietnam, how will we do this? Well, now Zoom is created. These companies created tool, and they created tool. And now here's Zoom, but then what's the next issue? And then what's the next problem? So problems are markets, not demographics.  Lisa: Oh, wow. Daryl: Not demographics, the problem is a market. This is the problem that we solve for people. Once you've got that a lot of it—for me, it's like different ways that you can go, but the purpose of business is to locate a prospect, turn that prospect into a customer and then make a customer your friend.  Lisa: Yes. Daryl: It's really a big part of it. It's tough to have a business survive. There are businesses that survive off one-time sales, but the vast majority of businesses need recurring business, recurring freight, ongoing relationships. And a lot of businesses aren't thinking about how to do that. And so, your business is a service to the world. And so the first thing you have to figure out on a small scale, ‘What problem do I solve’? And when you solve a problem, you kind of need to create, I call it a black box. This black box maybe is a mystery to the outside world; we can use a dentist's office people come in crying and in pain on one side, they go through the black box, which is a series of checklists, checklists for this, checklist for that, checklist for next thing, okay, check that we did this, this, this, this is this, boom, they leave smiling and happy on the other side. So that's the black box. That's the problem-solving box. Lisa: Wow.  Daryl: The problem-solving box, all the company is one group of people solving a problem for another group of people via a product or service.  Lisa: Wow.  Daryl: Before that problem is, and you've got it, now you need to design it. Here's some people solve problems really well, but they don't do it in a way that's scalable. So the rule of 10,000. Now I know how to solve the problem. Now I know THE kind of the type of people having that problem. How do I solve 10,000 of these problems for people, think, if I had to bake a pie if I'm trying to bake one pie versus bake 10,000 pies... Lisa: It's going to be more efficient. Daryl: there's a different mindset that you got like, I need a bigger kitchen, I got to do that. You've got like planning in batches, and food storage, it changes the nature of things. And then you got to kind of go out and find those people and that's like a marketing function.  So there's—actually, I can share this. So last year, I actually spent like $40,000 hiring all these research teams to help get down to what are the critical success factors for small and medium-sized businesses?  Lisa: Wow. Daryl: We came up with eight, there's actually nine, but the ninth one is government and economic factors. And it's not realistic that a person is going to influence.  Lisa: No.  Daryl: Not one person.  Lisa: Yes.  Daryl: No, it's not realistic. So the ones that we can influence is things like self-efficacy, which means your ability to be effective with your time, your energy, just yourself and through others. So it's like leadership is part of that, right? Your time management is part of that like mindset might be part of that. But self-efficacy, strategic planning, marketing strategy, market intelligence. So these are different market intelligence is understanding the needs, wants desires, problems of the people of the marketplace, and the competitors, the available options.  So it's market intelligence is like, what's going on out there? And then marketing strategy is how am I going to get my message across. Then you have sales skills and strategies, sales strategy. And then you have money management. You have business operating systems, which is—it could be technology, it could be simple checklists, it could be meeting rhythms, it could be a hiring process, that's the operating systems.  And then you've got business intelligence, and business intelligence is like the awareness of different things. So for example, like you are working with my partner, Kathy. She's helping you with your podcasts, you're getting greater awareness on how many downloads are we getting and how many people are sharing the downloads and how many people are listening and then coming my way—that's all business intelligence stuff.  Daryl: It's the idea of not just doing activities, but to actually measure… Right. But it needs to be aware. It’s like wearing a heart rate monitor, right? Like how's my—that's an intelligence system. How's my heart rate doing? How's my heart rate variability?  Lisa: Yes. I do all of that.  Daryl: What's my sleep pattern?  Lisa: Yes. Daryl:  Am I waking up twenty nights? That's like business intelligence. Those eight factors really are the critical make or break focus points for business.  Lisa: Wow. Daryl: And anything that you would do for a business should back into one of those. So, team building activity. Well, that's kind of self-efficacy, maybe operating systems, it depends. You're going to do a podcast, well, that's a marketing strategy, right? And then the strategic planning is the plan strategically of how you're going to pull the strings together. And like, we know how you plan you develop, how you plan to meet people, is there a thought process and from all this stuff? Lisa: And the hard thing is for the young entrepreneurial. I know we have a lot of people who, in business, starting businesses, or in developed businesses and wanting to scale further. You’re wearing so many hats at the beginning, like you're in charge of all of those departments if you like, and that is the very hard thing at the beginning. Once you get a team around you like we're at a stage now where we have small teams that are helping us with different aspects of what we do, and we're trying to outsource the stuff we're not good at. It's not our specialty, because we don't want to waste... But at the beginning, you have to do it all. And so you're just constantly wearing these multitasking hats and not being very efficient.  Daryl: Right. Lisa: How do people get to that next rung on the ladder? And this is something that where we've been backwards and forwards going on for a long time. How do you get to the next stage? And how do you make an effective team? And how do you outsource certain things, but not the other things? And it's getting to that next level, isn't it?  Daryl: Yes. Lisa: And at the beginning, you just forbought everything.  Daryl: If you've been doing a lot of activity, and you're not really sure what's working, a simple way to think about this is forget Uber and Grab and these other...  Lisa: Yes, this huge...  Daryl: Originally, if you were a cab driver, you would have a car, and your idea first figure out where are the people who need to be driven places and then pay money to do it. Maybe it's taking kids to school, maybe it's picking people up at the train station, or the bus station or the airport, maybe it's doctor's office appointments, right? Like every week for whatever.  But first, if you were the taxi driver, first, you'd have to figure out, how do I keep my schedule full every day? How do I keep myself busy every day? And so first, it's where are the customers? And where do they want to go? Right? Where are the customers and where they want to go? Can I take them there? You get paid in size over the relationship, and the problem you solve. What that means is if I want to get across town, but I have all day to do it, I can walk, right? But if I'm in a hurry, if my child is sick, and they're bleeding, and I got to get in the hospital in half the time, that's a bigger problem. I'll pay whatever, right? I can rent a car, I could bike, right? If I don't want to rent a car, I could pay more to have someone, you get what I'm saying?  Lisa: Yes. Daryl: I could pay someone to drive me. So there's a scale of problems. So first, like, where are the customers? What do they need? Where do they want to go? And then how do you get yourself busy? Now that you're busy what's going to happen is now you have to do is you have to train someone and had it on quality control. How do I deliver this consistently? What is my doing? Because when you do something for someone, why—what's making people really happy? What's making them not happy? Right? How do I make sure I have a consistent good experience for people? Good.  Now, how do I help more people? And then if you're the cab driver, you might have to take a pay cut? Because at some point, you might have to bring someone in and have them drive the car for half the day. Lisa: So you can focus on the business. Yes, yes.  Daryl: You can focus on getting another car and getting that. And so there's this weird period where it's like, 'Hey, I'm busy full time, but I can't be any busier'. So I can charge more money, or I'm going to hire someone, give them some of the work.  Lisa: Yes. Big portion of the money. Daryl: Right. They're gonna take a pint of the money. And now I'm going to get the second part going. And that's actually how Kathy got started. So Kathy is working with you. And one of the beginning she had some clients online, and I was like, 'What do you like doing the most? What's the one thing that you think you can do a lot of? And she really enjoys the writing component', and so we got her really busy. And then she hired someone, and then right? And then she was busy, and they're busy, she hired another person. And she had another person on now she had like a team of six, she's got some, like 26 people now. But in the beginning, she had like four or five, six, 'Hey, now you need a manager'. 'Okay, well, now I need a manager', okay, and that's your manager for the team and the next problem and building that out. And that's a really natural way to grow.  And part of what helps you do that is documentation and training, an edge explained, demonstrate, guide, and power. First, explain how you do it. Let me demonstrate it for you. So you can see it done. And then let me guide you in doing it with you. And then I'm going to empower you to do it on your own, make some mistakes and learn from them, and just repeat that process.  Lisa: Wow. Daryl: So it's an edge thing. And that's creating documentations and systems. But then you've got to actually keep—now you're getting into a different level. How do you communicate a vision? How do you keep a team productive? How do you monitor progress? How do you—because we're talking about self-efficacy, right? If you hire someone that could be brilliant, but if they don't get the work done, and now you're getting into people skills, and how do I communicate? And how do I help them tap into their own internal motivation? So they're not just showing up, clicking on the paycheck, and just clocking out, going home just on their phone all day. So these are different tiers of problems that people fall into. So I don't know if I read a whole of... Lisa: No, these are perfect, Daryl, and it does highlights here. There's always the next level. Daryl: Crazy amounts of entrepreneurship.  Lisa: No, but, like getting out of the startup gates is the hardest part and you dealing also with self-doubt and imposter syndrome often, and can I do this? And people telling you you can’t. Your family members or friends going, 'What the hell are you doing? And you've tucked in your regular job for this'? And you know, that 80% or more of businesses fail. I can't remember what the statistics were, but they're pretty horrific. And you're wearing all these hats. And what you then see is a lot of people starting to burn out. And that's really like part of what we do is all about managing stress and not burning out and how’s the basics of health because you need to do all that in order to be successful because there's no use having millions of dollars in the bank, but you are dead because that isn't going to help anybody. Daryl: I've seen that. I've seen people sacrifice—I see people make money and keep their health at the same time. But I've also seen a lot of people sacrifice their health to make money and then end up spending all that money trying to get their health back. Lisa: To get their health back. And I must admit like I've—not for the—just for the business but saying in rehabilitating mum cost me my health. I ended up nose diving because you're working 18 hour-days sometimes and you just go and helpful either trying to make the mortgage payments at the same time by the hyperbaric chambers, or the whatever she needs and trying to rehabilitate, and running all these juggling balls that we all have in various combinations. And you can't work yourself into the absolute—into the grave if you're not careful. And that's why health and resilience and stress reduction and stuff is what we do. Daryl: Yes, it's always best to have people—one of the biggest—and I've done this before, I've done this a couple of times, unfortunately. Better to collect money first and then develop a product. What I mean is like in my hometown, they're opening up a gym, and they were building, they bought this building, they were kind of doing rentals on the inside, and they set up a trailer outside. And they were actively marketing and were signing up people for the gym that was not yet finished being built...  Lisa: Brilliant  Daryl: ...so they're not yet open. And what happened was at some point, they just closed down the whole operation and left. And what it was is they had a pre-launch goal for themselves. ‘We need to generate this many new members in order to breakeven, or we stop’. And that's a really good thing, and you don't, it's like if you just get pre-orders, Elon Musk did this with, I thin

Sepsis is a massive health issue worldwide. According to WHO, nearly 50 million people get sepsis every year, killing 11 million. Here in New Zealand, one in five ICU patients dies because of it. Thus, raising awareness about the role of vitamin C in sepsis can help save lives. Dr Anitra Carr joins us in this episode to expand our understanding of the role of vitamin C in our body. She also explains how vitamin C functions not only as an antioxidant but also as a cofactor in many different mechanisms, particularly in fighting cancer and sepsis. Everything we share in this episode will be helpful for you should you find yourself or a loved one admitted to a hospital, so tune in.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn more about vitamin C’s antioxidant properties. Discover how vitamin C helps patients with pneumonia and sepsis. Learn about vitamin C’s role as a cofactor and how it ensures the proper functioning of different body processes.   Resources Read more about Dr Carr's study on vitamin C levels in patients with pneumonia. Access Dr Carr's review on recommended doses of vitamin C. Health and Immune Function Benefits of Kiwifruit-derived Vitamin C by Dr Anitra Carr Read more about Dr Carr's ongoing clinical trial on vitamin C and its effect on COVID-19 patients. Learn more about Dr Paul Marik's protocol for sepsis using vitamin C and steroids. Learn more about Dr Fowler's Phase 1 safety trial of IV vitamin C in patients with severe sepsis. Watch Professor Margreet Vissers' lecture on her work on vitamin C.   Episode Highlights [04:40] How Dr Carr’s Research on Vitamin C Started Dr Carr’s research began in 1998, where she studied how reactive oxygen species (ROS) produced by white blood cells react with our tissues. White blood cells produce ROS to help kill bacteria. However, they can also react with the tissues and create inflammation. Dr Carr then began investigating how vitamin C’s antioxidant properties help decrease inflammation. She also studied the benefits of vitamin C in preventing atherosclerotic plaques and the development of cardiovascular diseases (CVD). [09:42] Vitamin C as an Antioxidant Vitamin C has real antioxidant properties. Metal ions produce oxidants in the body; vitamin C donates electrons to these ions, converting them to the reduced state. The recommended daily dose to benefit from the antioxidant potential of vitamin C is 60 to 90 milligrammes in men and 75 milligrammes in women. You need a higher dose (120 milligrammes) of the vitamin to protect yourself from CVD and cancer. [17:57] Vitamin C in Food vs. Vitamin C Tablet Dr Carr conducted a comparative dosing study between kiwi fruit and vitamin C tablets. She found no difference in the vitamin C obtained from food and tablets. The body recognises the same molecule and takes up the same amount. [21:36] Vitamin C in Sepsis and Pneumonia Patients with pneumonia can develop sepsis, resulting in multi-organ failure, septic shock and, eventually, death. In observational studies in patients with pneumonia, Dr Carr found that the lower the vitamin C levels, the higher the oxidative stress. The body's requirement for vitamin C goes up by at least 30-fold when you get pneumonia and sepsis; it is hard to get those amounts orally. ICU patients need a vitamin C dose of 100 milligrammes per day. In these patients, the actual levels of vitamin C measured in the blood is lower compared to the amount they are receiving. [25:25] Why Is Vitamin C Testing Not a Protocol in Hospitals? Doctors are not familiar with the importance, recent research and mode of action of vitamin C because it is not taught in medical schools. The hospital system is not set up to routinely measure vitamin C. In trials, vitamin C is treated as a drug rather than a vitamin. We need to know how vitamin C works to create proper and adequate study designs. [32:27] What Are Some of the Future Vitamin C Studies We Can Conduct? We need studies about the frequency, dosing and timing of its administration.  We need to learn about the finer details of the vitamin rather than doing the same study designs. It is tough to obtain research funding due to the misinformation surrounding vitamin C. We also need to educate doctors and patients alike about the science behind vitamin C. [43:16] Vitamin C as a Cofactor Our cells rely on enzymes to carry out chemical reactions. A cofactor helps enzyme function. Vitamin C functions as a cofactor for the enzyme that synthesises noradrenaline and vasopressin. These hormones help in blood pressure regulation. It’s better to give ICU patients vitamin C than giving them vasopressin drugs. This allows the body to naturally produce the hormone, preventing the side effects of getting vasopressin externally. Vitamin C is also a cofactor of collagen, which plays a role in stopping cancer metastasis and wound healing. [54:30] Vitamin C in Epigenetics The expression of DNA may be regulated by adding or removing methyl groups. Vitamin C is a cofactor for enzymes that modify DNA methylation. It controls the switching on and off of genes, playing a possible role in personalised medicine.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘I’m much more interested in the whole person and how they're feeling, not what's happening inside a single cell’. ‘Don't wait until they're at death's door and at septic shock. It's hard for a vitamin to do something at this stage, even a really high-dose vitamin’. ‘A lot of these studies were designed to reproduce the first studies that came out to see if they could reproduce it also. That's why they’re using similar regimes. But now that we know more about it, each study adds another piece to the puzzle’. ‘There’s bigger issues at play with the whole pharmacological model that our whole system is built upon, and that nutrients and nutrition isn't taught in medical school. So, we're up against this big sort of brick wall’. ‘People go into a hospital setting or something, and they expect to have the latest and greatest information available, that the doctors know all that. And unfortunately, that's not always the case’. ‘Every person's life that is saved is a family that's not grieving’. ‘It’s the reason I’m doing this podcast, and it's the reason you're doing your research. And hopefully together and with many others, we can move the story along so that people get helped’.   About Dr Anitra Dr Anitra Carr holds a PhD in Clinical Biochemistry/Pathology. She started researching vitamin C when she undertook a postdoctoral research position at the Linus Pauling Institute, Oregon State University, USA, and was also awarded an American Heart Association Postdoctoral Fellowship. Dr Carr produced a number of high-impact publications in the field of vitamin C in human health and disease. Dr Carr is currently a Research Associate Professor at the University of Otago, Christchurch, School of Medicine. She has established her own research group, the Nutrition in Medicine Research Group, and undertakes translational bench-to-bedside research comprising observational studies and clinical trials on the role of oral and intravenous vitamin C in infection, cancer, metabolic health, mood and cognitive health. Dr Carr endeavours to understand the underlying biochemical mechanisms of action as well as improve patient outcomes and quality of life. She also pursues various ways to improve clinician and general public understanding of the roles of vitamin C in human health and disease. You may contact Dr Carr through anitra.carr@otago.ac.nz or call +64 3 364 0649.   Enjoyed This Podcast?  If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn more about the benefits of vitamin C in sepsis and pneumonia. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to the show! This week, I have another fantastic interview with another amazing scientist. But before we get there, I just want to remind you please give a rating and review to the show if you're enjoying the content and share it with your family and friends. I really appreciate that. And if you haven't already grabbed a copy of my book Relentless, make sure you do, you won't regret it. It's an incredible story that is really about taking control of your own health and being responsible for your own health and thinking outside the box. And it's the story of bringing my mum back to health after a mess of aneurysm. And it will really make you think about those—the way our medical system works and about why you need to be proactive when it comes to health and prevention, preventative health. And it's really just a heart-warming story as well. So, you can grab that on my website at lisatamati.com. Or you can go to any bookshop in New Zealand and order that or get that and it's available also on audiobook for those people who love to listen to books rather than reading them, I know, I certainly do a lot of that.  And just to also remind that if you have any questions around some of the topics that we've discussed on the podcast episodes, please reach out to me lisa@lisatamati.com. And if you want help with one of your health journeys or your performance journeys, or you want to work on some goal setting, on some mindset, please reach out there as well. We'd love to work with you. So today I have the Dr Anitra Carr, who is a scientist at Otago University. She's currently a research associate professor at the University of Otago, Christchurch School of Medicine. She's established her own research group, the Nutrition in Medicine Research Group and undertakes translational bench to bedside research comprising observational studies and clinical trials on the role of oral and intravenous vitamin C in infection, cancer, metabolic health, mood, cognitive health. And she endeavours to understand the underlying biochemical mechanisms of action as well as improve our patient outcomes. So, she's a person who loves to actually not just be in the lab and looking at petri dishes, but to actually help people in human intervention study. She currently has a study underway, which I'm really, really excited and waiting with bated breath to see what comes out. It’s a sepsis study, in the Christchurch hospital with 40 patients. And we talk a little bit about that today.  And we talk about the role of vitamin C  today. Continuing the conversations that we've had with some of the world's best vitamin C researchers. We're looking at the antioxidant properties, we're looking at the pro-oxidant properties, we're looking at vitamin C as a cofactor in so many different mechanisms in the body. We talking about its role in the production of adrenaline and vasopressin, in hypoxia inducible factors, in relation to cancer, and especially in relation to sepsis, which is obviously a very important one for me.  One in five ICU patients in New Zealand dies of sepsis. This is a massive problem. Worldwide, between 30 and 50 million people a year get sepsis. This is something that you really need to know about. You need to understand it and Dr Anitra Carr, also shares why you may not get a doctor in a hospital situation, actually understanding all the information that we're going to be sharing with you today. So, educate yourself, learn from this and enjoy the show with Dr Anitra Carr. Lisa: Well, hi, everybody. And welcome back to the show. Today I have Dr Anitra Carr, and today we're continuing the series around vitamin C. We've had some brilliant doctors and scientists on in the last few weeks and it's been really exciting to share some of the latest research and we have one of our own Kiwi scientists with us today, Dr Anitra Carr from Christchurch. Welcome to the show. Dr Anitra Carr: Hi, Lisa! Lisa: It's fantastic to have you. So, Dr Anitra, can you just tell us a little bit of your background and how you got involved with vitamin C research? Dr Anitra: Well, I first started researching back in the late 90s. So, 1998 and I had just finished a PhD with the University of Otago and I had been studying how reactive oxygen species that are produced by white blood cells react with our own tissues, damage their own tissues because these white blood cells produce these really reactive oxidants, such as hydrogen peroxide, which is hair bleach, and hypochlorous acid, which is household bleach. So very strong oxidants and they produce these to help kill bacteria in our bodies. But these oxidants can also react with their own tissues and that's what contributes to inflammation and the processes of inflammation. And so, I've just been studying how these oxidants react to certain components in our tissues. And when I finished that, I thought it’d be really interesting to investigate how antioxidants, such as vitamin C, which is one of the most potent antioxidants in our body, and help potentially protect against this damage. So, scavenge those oxidants before they react with our tissues, and help decrease the inflammation associated with them and features and conditions. And so, I applied to various people in the United States, I wanted to go to continue my research in the United States. And so I applied to several people over there who are doing research in the area that I was interested in, and they'll write back and say, ‘Yes, we have postdoctoral positions available.’ And so I selected one, on the advice of my PhD supervisor, and this was Professor Balz Frei. He was at the time in Boston. And after I said, ‘Yes, I'd like to work with him.’ He wrote back and said, ‘Oh, by the way, I'm moving to the west coast to Oregon. And I'm going to be the director, the new director of the Linus Pauling Institute.’  Lisa: Oh, wow.  Dr Anitra: Great opportunity it is. I like the West Coast of the United States. I've done a bit of work in California during my PhD. And so, I was quite happy with it. And so Linus Pauling had died just a few years prior to that. And so, the Linus Pauling Institute, which was in California, at the time, kind of needed a new home, I think they're in Palo Alto. And so they ended up going to Oregon State University because that was—for a couple of reasons—that was Linus Pauling alma mater. So, he had done his undergraduate research when he was in a cultural college. And also, because the library there was going to be able to host his papers. And so he has this collection of his writings and papers, thousands and thousands of documents, because as you've stated before, he's one of the only people to have been awarded two unshared Nobel prizes. So one was in chemistry around his work on the nature of the chemical bond. And the other one was a Peace Prize for his anti-nuclear campaign. And so the Oregon State University Library has his complete collection, it's called the Linus Pauling Special Collection. And so I spent a few years at Oregon State University researching how vitamin C can protect against oxidation of low density lipoprotein particles, which are what the body uses to export fat and cholesterol around the body, because the cells need cholesterol. But most people know low density lipoprotein protein as bad cholesterol. I mean, it's not intrinsically bad. But if it becomes oxidized, it can contribute to the development of atherosclerotic plaques and contribute to cardiovascular disease. And so I was looking at how vitamin C can protect against oxidation of this particle, and thereby potentially peak against development of atherosclerosis. And I was... Lisa: What was the outcome of it? That would be really interesting. Dr Anitra: Yes. So, I was particularly interested in the oxidants produced by white blood cells, because these can react with these low density lipoprotein particles and oxidized them. And vitamin C is a great scavenger in particular, and I was interested in how much do you need and how the particulars—is the real biochemical level? And, but also during this time, so late 1990s. We were interested—Professor Balz Frei was interested in the recommended dietary intakes for vitamin C. Because in a lot of countries they are very low—these recommendations, primarily to prevent deficiency diseases, such as scurvy. Whereas, we believe you know, that the recommendations should be high to help reduce the risk of chronic diseases such as cardiovascular disease and cancer and that sort of thing. That's a bit helpful to the outcome. So, in the late 90s, in 1998, the Food and Nutrition board of the Institutes of Medicine was re-examining the recommended dietary intake for the antioxidant vitamins, the A, C, and E in the United States.  And we write a comprehensive review around all the scientific evidence at the time for what sort of doses of vitamin C appear to protect against cardiovascular disease and cancer. And so, we made a recommendation of 120 milligrams a day, which was, at that time twice what the recommended dietary intake in the States, it was 60 milligrams a day at the time. And so we submitted that document, and it was considered by the Food and Nutrition Board. And also another review, I'd written around vitamin C's antioxidant roles in the body versus its pro-oxidant roles. Vitamin C, referred to as pro-oxidant.  Lisa: Yes, I’ve heard that. To get hit around the antioxidant and as a pro-oxidant.  Dr Anitra: Vitamin C is an antioxidant. It's not a not oxidant, pro-oxidant. But what it does is it can reduce—so antioxidants donate electrons, and they reduce oxidized compounds. So, it reduces transition metal ions such as copper and iron. So, these are metals in our body that can read off cycles so they can produce oxidants. Lisa: Yes, and we've talked about redox before in the podcast. Dr Anitra: Yes, so what vitamin C does is it converts these metal ions into a reduced state and metal ions can go on and generate oxidants. Lisa: So it gives ion and copper a longer life, does it? It sort of gives them—ion and copper away to keep going? Dr Anitra: Regenerates them so that these metal ions can keep producing oxidants. But in our body, these metal ions are all sequestered away and protected by proteins, they're not floating around free. In the body, vitamin C doesn't seem to do that, based on the evidence, it seems to just have it’s true antioxidant roles, not this kind of prooxidant by-product, as you might call it. So, this sort of evidence was considered by the Food and Nutrition Board and they decided, ‘Yes, it does have an antioxidant role in the body.’ And, and so they also referred to Mark Levine's seminal work to kind of work out a dose, a daily dose of vitamin C, they thought would be good to help foster this antioxidant potential on the body—potentially protect against these other chronic long-term diseases such as cardiovascular disease and cancer. And so they did end up increasing the RDA for vitamin C instead from 50 to 90 milligrams a day for men, and 75 milligrams a day for women. So that was good, not quite as high as we would have liked to see, but still a step in the right direction. Lisa: A very conservative, aren’t they? They are slow to respond and conservative? Because you think like being the preventative space would be a good thing, if we're trying to... Dr Anitra: It is. Prevention is a lot cheaper, a lot easier to prevent a disease. Lisa: Exactly. But I think New Zealand's even worse, isn't it? I think we're at 45 milligrams, which is I think it is. Dr Anitra: One of the lowest in the world, yes. Lisa: That’s got to change, sorry.  Dr Anitra: So we're trying to generate the evidence to help support them increase in RDA. Lisa: Gosh, so it's also slow, like you've been doing this for what? 20-like years. And still... Dr Anitra: They do say that translation of science into medical research into clinical practice takes 15 to 20 years. Lisa: Wow, that is a really interesting statement. Because this is why I think, like sharing the sort of information direct from the experts, if you like, and I sit this was Professor Margreet Vissers too, that we have to make sort of educated decisions as people in trouble now. Whether you've got cancer or whether like my case who have a dad who had sepsis, you have to make an educated decision now based on you're running out of time. And we're waiting for the research and the research will be great, but it will be another 10 to 20 years down the line before it actually… And then in the medical world, it seems to be a very slow—Doctor Fowler said that beautifully when I had him on last week. It's like trying to shift a supertanker, Critical Care he was referring to is very, very slowly coming around. And I had Dr Ron Hunninghake on as well from the Riordan Institute, another fantastic doctor, and he talked about Medical Mavericks. Dr Hugh Riordan had written three books on people who were really ahead of their time, got in trouble for it and then actually the research and everything caught up with them later.  So that's interesting. So, if you’re listening to this, New Zealand has got 45 milligrams as the RDA, that's just to keep you out of scurvy. Right?  So, okay, so you've done all this antioxidant research and this with RSS and at the Linus Pauling Institute, when did you start to develop an interest in the infectious diseases, sepsis side of that, because I'd really love to... Dr Anitra: Yes, that's, that's more recent.  So, after a few years—three years at the Institute, I decided to have our first child and move back to New Zealand. And I made the decision to quit science and just focus on bringing up our family, ended up having three children. Stayed home for nine years looking out after our children. And I made the decision that they were more important than my career  Lisa: Wonderful. That's an interesting fact, as well as a mom and a scientist, like, an incredibly dedicated career that you'd have spent years getting there and then trying to juggle mum roles with scientist roles, and taking nine years out of your career. Has that hurt your career massively? Or I would have catch up so to speak? Dr Anitra: It hasn't hurt my career. I mean, I'm 10 years behind my contemporaries, my colleagues because I took that time out. But that's the decision I made. And I stand by it because the first three years of a child's life are very important. So I thought I'll dedicate myself to the children in the early years. And after those nine years, right? I've done my time and really can’t get back to work. Lisa: Mum's going to be a working mum from now on.  Dr Anitra: But I just went back to work part time, so, within school hours, so that I'll still be there for them after school hours. And one of the things that drew me back to work—I was recruited back to run a human intervention study. What really excited me because when I was in the lab doing lead-based research, I always felt too removed from the need to be helping. And so I’m much more interested in the whole person and how they're feeling, not what's happening inside a single cell.  Lisa: Yes. Yes, it makes sense.  Dr Anitra: I was really excited and really grateful to be recruited back, especially after taking nine years out for my... Discoveries have been made during that time that I had no idea until I went back and I've got a bit of catching up to do. And... Lisa: So what was that first intervention study, that human...  Dr Anitra: This was a kiwi fruit study. So kiwi fruit is very high in vitamin C. In summary, we're interested in how many kiwi fruit do you need to eat to get adequate and optimal vitamin C level. So it's just kind of a dosing study?  Lisa: Brilliant. Dr Anitra: Then we went on to compare kiwi fruit with tablets. So, animal research had shown our food sources of Vitamin C seemed to be a bit better than tablet sources. And so we would—we thought we'd translate that into a human study. And what we found is there's no difference  Lisa: There's no difference. Uptake of vitamin C from food versus tablets, the body is really good at it. Because we need vitamin C, our body has adapted ways to...   Lisa: Take it wherever it gets it. Dr Anitra: Take it up, regardless of the source. Lisa: Wow, that's... Dr Anitra: The structure of vitamin C's the same in foods as it is in tablets. So the body recognizes it the same, takes up the same amounts. I mean, the benefit of food is that you're also getting all the other vitamins and minerals and fibre. So, we still recommend food. But it is in our daily diets these days, it's very hard to get 200 milligrams a day of vitamin C. Lisa: Just fruits and veggies. Yes. Dr Anitra: That’s just fruit and vegetables. And as you know, different fruits and vegetables have quite different amounts of vitamin C, which a lot of people aren't aware of. Lisa: No. No. Dr Anitra: I mean, people know that kiwi fruit and citrus are high, but they may not realize that apples and bananas are actually quite low in vitamin C. Lisa: Or capsicums are quite high… You wouldn’t think that broccoli… And if you decide to take a supplement, is there a bit of supplement? Like, I have heard concerns about corn-derived vitamin C because of the glyphosate discussion, and that’s a bit hard to track really, the types of vitamin C. But is there any sort of research around—I mean, I've talked previously with a couple of doctors and scientists around liposomal delivery. Have you seen anything in that department or any supplementation method that's better? Dr Anitra: Not convincingly better. I mean, there might be trials that show that’s slightly better than just your normal chewable vitamin C. But I just go for the standard, cheap vitamin. Lisa: Yes, doesn't have to be super special. Like it's a pretty simple molecule, isn't it? Like, the body is pretty, like you say, it needs it, it knows it. Dr Anitra: Liposomal vitamin C kind of wrapped up in lipids, and the body doesn't need it because like you said it’s designed to recognize vitamin C in its natural form, in foods and such like. Lisa: Yes—who was that? I think Dr Thomas Levy was saying it bypasses some of the digestive issues because with vitamin C, you can get digestive stress when you take a bigger... Dr Anitra: When you take a higher dose. Some people, we're talking about more than four grams a day, and some people can get stress, it does but you can use that. Lisa: Okay. So then you've moved into—and forgive me for jumping here—but very keen to talk about the role of sepsis and pneumonia and patients in ICU reasons   Dr Anitra: So, after about five years of doing that research part time, I managed to get at Health Research Council, such as speakers Health Research Fellowship, which allowed me to move into the more clinical arena of studying infection, which was an area I was interested in. And done some observational studies where we have recruited patients who have pneumonia, measured the vitamin C levels, and levels of oxidative stress. And found that they have very low levels of vitamin C and high levels of oxidative stress. And the more severe the condition, the worse it is, the lower the vitamin C levels, and the higher the oxidative stress. So, if those patients with pneumonia are going to develop sepsis, and sepsis is kind of this uncontrolled inflammatory response to a severe infection. And that can develop into multi organ failure and the patient’s taken to the intensive care unit. And it can go on further to develop into septic shock due to failure of the cardiovascular system. And up to half those patients die, it’s the major cause of death in critically ill patients.  Lisa: Yes. And that's what I unfortunately experienced with my dad. And so, with the organs are starting to break down. So, when you get anything like pneumonia or sepsis, the body's requirement just goes up, a hundred-fold or more. Dr Anitra: Yes, at least 30-fold. Yes. So, it's very hard to get those amounts into a patient orally. And so, when the patients are in the intensive care unit, they're generally sedated because they're being mechanically ventilated. And so, they're given nutrition in two different ways because they can't eat. And so, the main way is to drip feed it directly into the stomach, liquid nutrition in the stomach through nasal gastric tube. The other way is to inject it directly into the bloodstream. And so, the recommended amounts of vitamin C by these means is about 100 milligrams a day. Lisa: That’s nothing.  Dr Anitra: But what we did on one of our studies was we looked at how much vitamin C these patients should theoretically have in their blood based on how much vitamin C they're consuming. Because 100 milligrams a day in a healthy person is more than adequate to—provides adequate plasma, what we would consider adequate plasma levels. And so, we mapped out what it would look like in these patients based on how much they were getting. And then we compared it with what we actually measured in their blood, it’s way lower than what theoretically should have been. And so, this, this was an indication that you still need a lot more vitamin C than they're getting in the standard liquid nutrition. And that the body also has these much higher requirements, which has been shown previously by other researchers. Lisa: And so this leading to almost a scurvy-like situation. I mean, some of these severe sepsis people—I mean, seeing one of your [unintelligible 24:53] that sort of normal community cohort of people, young people, middle aged people, and then down into the more severe pneumonia and then sepsis, and severe sepsis. And they are just over the scurvy level. So basically, their bodies are falling apart because of that, as well as the sepsis if you like. and it's... Dr Anitra: And that’s even on top of being given a day of at least 100 milligrams a day, that's still really low. Lisa: That's just not touching the sides.  Dr Anitra: Yes and...  Lisa: Why is this not like—for people going into the hospital, why is it that even though—okay, we may not know the dosages, why is not every hospital testing at least the really sick patients, what their vitamin C levels are, and then treating it the nutrient deficiency only? Even apart from the high dose intravenous stuff, but just actually—with my dad, I was unable to get a vitamin C test done to prove my case. I couldn't prove my case because I couldn't get it tested.  Dr Anitra: Yes, no, it's so true. It's because doctors don't learn about nutrients in medical school, it’s not part of their training.  Lisa: At all, yes.  Dr Anitra: So they're not familiar with how important they are for the body. They're not familiar with all the recent research around all the different functions and mechanisms of action that vitamin C carries out. Over the last 10 years, all these brand-new mechanisms and functions have been discovered, and they think we know everything there is to know about it.  Lisa: Yes, and we don't. Dr Anitra: [unintelligible 26:34] the time. It’s basically exciting. Lisa: Yes, it is.  Dr Anitra: So basically, they don't understand. The hospital system isn't set up to routinely measure it. It is only ever measured if scurvy—if someone comes in with suspected scurvy. And even then, a lot of doctors aren't used to recognizing the symptoms of scurvy. It's not something they're familiar with because it doesn’t... Lisa: They think it no longer exists because it’s what sailors had in the 1800s. Dr Anitra: ...the parents and the wisdom.  Lisa: It’s basically in the sick population. Dr Anitra: It is. But I think... So when I first applied for funding to carry out these studies, in pneumonia and sepsis, there were only a couple of papers have been published at that time looking at vitamin C sepsis, and that was Berry Fowler's safety dosing study.  Lisa: That is phase one trial.  Dr Anitra: And another one, small one in Iran. So, there was very, very little information out there at the time. And so, I put in an application for us to carry out an intervention study in our ICU at Christchurch. So just a small one, 40 people—20 placebo control of vitamin C and 20 getting intravenous vitamin C.  And not long after that, Paul Marik's study came out and that stimulated real explosion and research in this field because of the media interest. So the media picked up on it. And it hit the world. I've been talking about this for years to doctors. I see doctors and they're trying to get to talk about it. But it wasn't until it hit the media, and they heard about it through the media, they thought, ‘Okay, maybe there's something here.’ So that just goes to show how important media can be. Lisa: Exactly why we're doing the show. I have not seen it. But you know what I mean? We've got to get this from the ground up moving.  Dr Anitra: Yes. And so since then, there's been many studies carried out around the world, all of different quality. And so we're learning more and more information, real-time clinical trials, they take a long time to run. Recruitment being the most difficult part.  The other thing is that, a lot of the clinical trials, the clinical researches are used to running drug trials and so they treat vitamin C like a drug, but it's not a drug. It's a nutrient, it’s a vitamin, that the body is specially designed to take up and use very different from drugs. And so they don't always understand how vitamin C works in the body. And it's important to know how it's working in order to design good studies, good quality studies. So a lot of the data that's come out may be impacted by how well the study was done and thought out. So we still don't know all the important essays about the dose, how often should you give it, when should you give it?  I mean, ideally it should be given you know, as early as possible.  Lisa: Early as possible.  Dr Anitra: Don't wait until they're at death's door and septic shock. It's hard for vitamin C to do something at that stage even really high, even a really high dose vitamin. The earlier that you give it, the longer you can get it for digest.  Most of these trials have given it for four days and they stop.  Lisa: Yes, I've wondered that.  Dr Anitra: The whole time, they're in the ICU because once pharmacokinetic study showed that when you stop that vitamin C, some of those patients just drop straight back down to where they were. Now they need to keep that continued input.  Lisa: So why? Why has it been made that it's only—all of those I've seen, I think have been 4-day, 96 hour studies. And occasionally one of them is or for the latest day in ICU, but most of them have been 96 hours and most of them have been very, very conservative dosing. From what I understand conservative dosing. And I know Dr Berry Fowler said where there's some consideration about oxalate in kidney function. And I'm like, ‘Yes, but this is still a very low risk for somebody who's got sepsis.’ Dr Anitra:  If a patient has kidney dysfunction in ICU they put them on haemodialysis anyway, so which clears that excess vitamin C. So it's not such an issue for those patients. But yes, a lot of these studies were designed to reproduce the first studies that came out to see if they are reproducible. so, that's why they’re using similar regimes. But now that we know more about it, each study adds another piece to the puzzle. And so hopefully, future studies will look more into what dose we actually need and it only varies depending on the... Lisa: The severity  Dr Anitra: Severity, etc. How long? And I believe, once they leave the ICU... So patients who survived sepsis, they can go on to have real problems, physical disabilities, cognitive issues, psychological issues, like depression, anxiety. And so, I really believe they keep taking vitamin C when they leave the hospital just orally, that might help with those conditions that hasn't been researched yet. That's a whole area of research that should be carried out to. Lisa: So, if I was to ask you, in your dream world where your resources are unlimited, and you had lots of money, and you had lots of people to help you do all these and you have enough patience to enrol. What are some other things that you would like as a scientist and you understand some of the mechanisms and the cofactors—which I want to get on to as well—what are some of the studies that you would like to see happen? So, we can move this along faster.  What are some of the key things?  So, quality of life afterwards? Yes, like dosages, what?  Dr Anitra: Really practical things that the doctors need to know, I think, what's important, like, how much to give, how often to give it? Most of the studies are done four times a day because that's what was done in the initial studies. Is it better to give it continuously? So, when they're in the ICU, can you just use drugs continuously, rather than this kind of bolus dosing?  So, do more research around that.  So the frequency and dosing and timing like when do you administer it, how long should you administer it for? I mean, there's so many important aspects around that. And we've got the foundational research done now, we can start teasing out the finer details now, I think. Rather than just doing the same study designs over and over again, Lisa: Yes and reproducing.  Dr Anitra: Modify their study designs to start addressing these other issues. And there's some really big studies underway at the moment. One in Canada with 800 people. I mean, they'll give us really good information, those sorts of studies, rather than the little studies. Unless you live in small countries. Lisa: Small countries that can’t afford those things that cost millions and millions of dollars. And is there a trouble with funding because it's not a drug that we're developing here? Does it make it harder to get funding? Dr Anitra: It's extremely hard to get funding because often on the CSUN committee, it's often medical people on these who don't believe in vitamin C. The bad press or the misinformation don't understand the importance, the relevance and so, that's why this outreach is really important. It's just educating people about the science behind it. It's not hocus pocus.  Lisa: Yes, I mean, if I can share—I mean, I've shared a little bit on the past episodes with my case with my dad. I know and I felt they just put me in that, wackery quackery caught and they paid lip service to listening to me. They didn't really and but I’m quite—well in this case, I had to be quite forceful because my dad was dying. And I didn't go away, most people would go away because—and I just wish I knew then what I know now even because I wasn't that deep into the research. And now I am deep into the research and really an advocate for this.  But I was treated like—there was one really good doctor who listened to me, who advocated, he didn't believe in it, he didn't understand the mechanisms of action or any of that sciency stuff. But he did advocate for me at the ethics committee, whereas everyone else would just roll their eyes basically.  And this is why I think it's so important to share this, to come back again and again to the science for science for science, and for them to just open up their eyes just because they didn't learn it in medical school. And it's not in the current textbook for, like you say, because it takes 20 years probably to get it to the textbook. Because it's a vitamin, they just immediately shut down, it’s how I felt. They just immediately, ‘Well, just eat an orange and you're good to go.’ I mean, the surgeon—I had a friend that was going into surgery, and she was like, ‘Should I have intravenous vitamin C, before I go into surgery to prepare my body?’ Very logical thing to do in my eyes. It’s like, ‘You don’t need that, just eat an orange,’ and it's like, ‘Oh, you don't get the whole why and how, and what happens when the body goes through a trauma and a surgery, or a sepsis or any of these things.’And I don't know, like there's a bigger issue at play with the whole pharmacological model that our whole system is built upon. And that nutrients and nutrition isn't taught in medical school. So we're up against this big sort of brick wall.  And when I tell my story to people just, sharing with friends and things, they’ll be going, ‘But where's the downside? He was dying anyway, why couldn't he have it?’ And I said, ‘Well, you're up against machinery, you're up against ethics committees, legal battles, and a system that is just very staid and conservative in its approach.’  And that's not to criticize individual people within the system. I'm not wanting to do that. I'm just trying to make people aware because people go into a hospital setting or something, and they expect to have the latest and greatest information available that the doctors know all that. And unfortunately, that's not always the case. Do you find that frustrating?  Dr Anitra: I mean, it's not the doctors’ fault as such, because they're very busy people, they don't have time to keep up with all the literature, and they're not likely to be going into the nutrition literature in the first place. Which is why we try and publish as much of that stuff and the clinical literature, they're more likely to see it then. And they have the patient's best interests at heart. They've just heard the bad things about vitamin C and the misinformation. And so they don't want to do harm to the patient, I guess. It’s the view that they’re coming from and they don't have time to read all the latest information. And that's why just piece by piece, chip away at theirs, and educate them and hopefully it'll come into the training of the new doctors. And future hopefully, more nutrition courses will be introduced into training because it's not just vitamin C.  The body needs all the vitamins that are all vital to life. That's where the name comes from. You don't hit them, you die. It's as simple as that. So, yes, I think that it is vital that this information gets into the appropriate arenas. Lisa: Yes. And I think that's why I'm passionate about the show is that my sort of outlook on the whole thing is, ‘Yes, I'm not a doctor, but I can give voice to doctors and researchers. And I can curate and I can investigate and I can share.’ And this is a very emotional topic for me or for obvious reasons, but I'm trying to take the emotion out of it because that doesn't help the discussion.  And it’s really hard but I understand the importance—because I know that if I share things in an emotional manner, then I'll get shut down as having mental health problems in a group being a grieving daughter. When actually I’m an intelligent person who's educated herself in this. I've got the best people, and the best researchers, and the best scientists, and the best doctors sharing the latest research. And I hope that by doing that you can get one mind after the other and just get them to understand rather than the emotional side of things. Because what I do want to also share with the story is that every person's life that is saved is a family that's not grieving. These are not statistics.  When Dr Berry Fowler's research, with Dr Merricks research and you see a drop from, I think Dr Merricks was 40%, mortality to 8% and Dr Berry’s was something like 49, down to 29. Don't quote me on the numbers, but big numbers in drops and mortality. And you go, those are just dozens, if not hundreds of lives that are saved. And those families are saved from that grief.  And worldwide, I've heard a couple of estimates between 30 and 50 million people a year who get sepsis. Of those, one in five—I've heard in your research—one in five in New Zealand ICU dies of sepsis. This is a huge problem. This is as big as cancer and actually is one of the complications often of cancer therapies. So, I don't think people understand the enormity of sepsis itself. And then pneumonia, and then we can go into the discussion of COVID, and cancer, and all those other things. It's like we're talking millions of lives every year around the world. So this research is just absolutely crucial. Sorry, I've gotten on my bandwagon a little bit. But I really want to get this information out there. And that I think it's really, really important.  And let’s change track a little bit and just talk a little bit briefly because I haven't covered this subject with the other vitamin C interviews that I've done. Around the cofactor, so vitamin C is a cofactor for so many different areas. So I remember from one of your lectures, it has epigenetic influences and hairs like with collagen synthesis, and that's not just for your skin and your and your nails, but also has implications for cancer. You've got your health, which Professor Margreet Vissers talked about your hypoxia inducible factor, tumor growth. Can you just go and give me a little bit of information around—the vasopressin one would be very good and anything else that pops to mind there. Dr Anitra: Yes, so the cofactor is a compound that helps enzyme function. So everything in our cells relies on the functions of enzymes to carry out reactions in ourselves or the chemical reactions require enzymes. And so a cofactor supports that function.  And so early on when I was just starting in this area of research in the field of sepsis, I was looking at the different cofactor functions of vitamin C, and one of them is a cofactor for the enzyme which synthesizes noradrenaline. And noradrenaline is one of the main drugs, as you might say, that's given to patients who are going into septic shock. So it's given to the patients to try and increase the blood pressure. And it works by making the muscles around the blood vessels contract. Makes the blood vessels a bit smaller, so it increases your blood pressure.  And so vitamin C is a cofactor for the enzyme that naturally synthesizes noradrenaline in our body. And there's another enzyme which synthesizes hormones, one of which is vasopressin.  And this is another drug that's also sometimes given to these patients to help your blood pressure. And it works by increasing the re-uptake of water by the kidney. So, that increases your blood volume and hence, your blood pressure. So, for a lot of ICU patients, they're given noradrenaline and sometimes they're given vasopressin on top of that. Really try and get the blood pressure up. Lisa: Yes, their collapsing cardiovascular system.  Dr Anitra: And I realized, ‘Oh wait a minute vitamin C is also cofactor for this enzyme that synthesizes vasopressin.’ So here it is, a cofactor for two quite different enzymes that synthesize vasopressors naturally in our body. And so, if these patients are coming into the ICU, very low in vitamin C, and going into shock, is one of those reasons because they don't have enough vitamin C in the body to support natural vasopressor function. The doctors have to give them these drugs but if we're able to get them vitamin C, early enough that it can potentially support their own natural synthesis of these vasopressors in the body, which is a much better way to do it. Because if drugs are given from the outside, they're often given in high doses and not regulated, and so can cause side effects. There is a difference being produced in the body, the body knows what it's doing. It regulates how much and how often, all those sort of 46:07 engineering emails and so you don't get the nasty side effects. Lisa: Can I share a bit of a story there? Because both my mom and her case was—she had an aneurysm four years ago, she was on noradrenaline, and could only be given in an ICU. And originally she was in the neurological ward. And they couldn't do it there. And I only realized like she was going into a coma. So she had massive brain damage going into a coma. That when they took her up to ICU, they could give her the noradrenaline that opened up that the vessels in the heat it a little bit, or keep the pressure up, so that the vessels were open to stop the vasospasm in her case, which was killing parts of the brain. But she'd been in the neurological ward where they couldn't give any of that earlier. And so the damage had already been done partly.  And then with the case with my dad, back then I didn't know anything about vitamin C, of course. With the case with my dad in July, this year, I got vitamin C, but it was on day 13 of his 15-day battle, because I had paid to go through ethics committees and all of that sort of jazz. So he was an absolute death's doorstep, should have been dead days ago, according to the doctors. They couldn't believe he was still going but he was one tough man. I don’t know how he was still alive but he was. And the very first infusion that we got a vitamin C, immediately we were able to take him off norad for a period of about eight hours. We needed the vitamin C again, that took me another 18 hours before I could get permission to get the second one. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it in the six-hour bolus, which was ideal.  We gave him initially 15 grams. So this was again, multiple organ failure, fecal matter, and the creatinine, desperate, desperate, desperate straits. His CRP, c-reactive protein dropped from 246 down to 115. His white blood cell count improved and his kidney function went from 27% to 33%. And I was able to take him on vasopressors and noradrenaline for about eight hours. That is incredible for someone who could die at any moment. And we eventually—we failed because I struggled to get the second and I struggled to get the third infusion and it really was too late.  But even at that point, I thought it might be interesting for your research—I have all the medical records by the way, if you want to have a look at the data exactly. But it really was a strong—he doesn't need the noradrenaline, his blood pressure was going up. And that was a really, really good sign. As the dropping of the CRP, which was still very high at 115 but it was way better than where it had been.  So goodness, what would have happened if I'd had him on day one from the surgery? Yes. And, and none of it is understood. So that's one of the cofactors that… And that brings to mind just as someone who's connecting the dots, if you have an HPA axis problem, like your adrenals aren't doing the job well. And your cortisol, vitamin C would probably be a good thing to take to support.  Dr Anitra: And sometimes it’s referred to as a stress hormone because it is involved in the adrenal response. And people who are under stress, or in animal studies who have stress animals they appear, they use more vitamin C, and they generate more vitamin C, the animals they can synthesize it themselves, they generate more vitamin C to compensate for that. We are not there anymore. So we have to take more if we're under stressful conditions. Lisa: Exactly. And that's a really—it's just a funny thing of evolution that we've lost the ability to synthesize more as we like animals, like the goat, especially it can synthesize like a ton more when it needs that. We will give them big brains so that we can make vitamin C so we can take it. What are some of the other cofactors? Just as we start to wrap it up, but just a couple of the other important cofactors.  And collagen? Why is collagen important apart from you want my skin and hair, and your joints? Well, I did hear in one of the lectures about collagen helping stop metastasis of cancers?  Dr Anitra: Right, yes, that's one mechanism. It's also very important in wound healing. And, interestingly, a lot of—a reasonable number of surgeons are aware of this and that they're a lot more open to people taking vitamin C around surgery before and after surgery just to help affect wound healing. Lisa: Oh, wow. Yes.  Dr Anitra: Which is great. And Lisa: And oncologists, are they sort of open to...  Dr Anitra: Least so  Lisa: Least so. Yes. In fact, I've had friends who have told us, if you take intravenous vitamin C, we won't do any treatments. And this is... Dr Anitra: And that is primarily around all the misunderstanding around those early, early trials around intravenous. What I'm seeing is when Linus Pauling showed a feat of vital intravenous vitamin C. The clinicians at the Mayo Clinic who tried to reproduce those studies, they used oral doses, so just small doses over a day.  But back in those days, they weren't aware of the different pharmacokinetics of vitamin C, they thought oral and intravenous, are just the same, like the drug. But it's quite different. Oral uptake is a lot lower, much smaller amounts are taken up versus intravenous, you can get really high doses. And very quickly,  Lisa: Up to 200 times. I heard Professor Gabi Dachs, saying that intravenous is up to 200 times for short periods, but that short periods makes a difference, because you can get that into the tumor cells and to—so that… And this is the problem. Professor Margreet Vissers was saying the original controversy around Linus Pauling’s work and because they didn't have an understanding of how can possibly this mechanism of action been working. They just pursued it, basically. And it caused this big rift, those on the side, and those on that side, and for the next—what are we? 40 something years later—we'll still actually, it's problematic. Dr Anitra: Yes, it wasn't really till Mark Levine did his really detailed pharmacokinetic studies that people realized the big differences between oral and intravenous. And also there’s more recent discoveries of vitamin C's cofactor functions around regulating genes through herbs and through the epigenetic enzymes. These are all mechanisms, which could be involved and its anticancer mechanisms as such. And so the epigenetic area is a very, very exciting, very interesting area of research. And I think it'll enable us to personalize medicine in the future.  Lisa: Oh! I mean, I have an epigenetics program as one of my health programs. And yes, that's looking at okay, how genes being influenced by your environment, and let's optimize your environment to your genes. And the vitamin C helps serve to give people an understanding, so is vitamin C helping produce the enzymes that read the DNA? And then therefore having the reactions. Is that how it works? Dr Anitra: It works as a code. Lisa: the transcription Dr Anitra: Yes, so it helps the function of the enzymes which modify the DNA. So genetics is about the DNA itself. Epigenetics is above the DNA. So it's a way to regulate the DNA as you know. Usually through adding methyl groups to the dynast DNA, adding and subtracting and that affects how the DNA is read by the enzymes that read DNA and transcribe it. Lisa: Turning them on or off, or simplify.  Dr Anitra: So vitamin C, regulates the enzymes which modify the methyl groups and stimulates them coming off or stimulates different mechanisms happening. So switching certain genes on, switching certain genes off, now it can teach you to regulate thousands of genes in our body through stimulation of these enzymes. Lisa: Wow. So yes, I've heard somewhere, I think it was seven or 8000 genes that are possibly affected by this. So we are really at the beginning of the vitamin C journey, as far as the epigenetics mechanisms is concerned. Yes, that's exciting. Dr Anitra: A lot of its functions, not just in cancer, but in all areas of health and disease, these functions could be playing a role. So yes, huge areas of research possible there. Lisa: Yes. Yes. Yes. Is there a—I remember Professor Margaret, talking about Tt? Is that one of the enzymes? The Tt one? Dr Anitra: It is an enzyme, that's right. Lisa: And that's important for cancer in some way? Dr Anitra: Now, the enzyme search modifies the methylated DNA, some regulation that epigenetics. And it's definitely difficult. Lisa: To replicate it in the cancer process. Wow. Okay, we're getting quite technical here.  Doctor Anitra, I just want to say thank you very much for your dedication because I've listened to a couple of interviews with you. And you've actually sacrificed quite a lot to do the research that you're doing because there isn't a heck of a lot of funding and things are out there. So, thank you for doing all that. It's a labour of love, I can imagine. It's a long, slow process, getting the information, getting it to be watertight—scientifically watertight, so that we can actually get people help, who need help. And that at the end of the day it’s the reason I'm doing this podcast. And it's the reason you're doing your research, and hopefully together and with many others, we can move the story along so that people get helped.  Is there anything that we haven't covered that you think would be an important message for people listening today? Dr Anitra: Well, I think—I mean, of course, infection is very relevant these days with COVID. There’s a lot of information and misinformation floating around out there about vitamin C and COVID. And at this stage, the studies are still at the really early, early stages. Americans have done a study which shows that patients with COVID in the ICU do have low vitamin C levels, like other similar conditions. COVID is a severe respiratory infection like pneumonia and sepsis or complications with COVID. And so, I think that the key is to stay healthy, eat a good healthy... Lisa: Boost your immune system, yes.  Dr Anitra: Yes, to support your immune system, it doesn't mean you won't get COVID. But it may decrease the severity and the duration, so it doesn't go on to become the more severe version, the pneumonia and sepsis.  So I think that's an important message and if you do get infection, your requirements, dear God, so you do need to take more vitamin C, you need to take gram amounts, rather than milligram amounts. Want you to prevent getting even more severe. So, I'm all for prevention as much as possible, not leaving it till it's too late. So, I think, yes, just look after yourself, eat well. Lisa: Yes. And get your vitamin C. Come buy some kiwi fruit, and some oranges today, and some lemons, and capsicum. And some supplements maybe. Just as a final thing, you yourself, have a study that's currently underway, which is really, really exciting. And this is based in the Christchurch hospital, I believe, in 40 patients and with sepsis. Can you just tell us a little bit, the parameters of that study and when you think you'll have some results from it? Dr Anitra: So this was patients with septic shock. So once again, at the end. And they were administered either placebo control, so half the patients and the other half were given intravenous vitamin C at a dose of 100 milligrams per kilogram body tissue per day, which equates to about six to seven grams a day. The reason for that, I have wanted to use the high dose, Berry Fowler. But the ethics committee—because when I put this into the ethics committee, there were only the two studies out, which was Berry Fowler's and the small study headed by Iran. And they said, ‘Well, slightly more people have received a lot lower dose versus the higher dose. So we'd rather use the lower dose.’’ Even though there'd be no adverse events at any dose. And subsequently, no adverse events and any studies.  Lisa: No. Dr Anitra: And so, we've used the lower dose, we've only just finished recruiting the last patients. It took a while and we had issues of lockdown. And so now we're in the process of analysing the samples that we've collected analysing the data. And so hopefully, we're about to pull that together, sometime next year and publish the results next year.   Lisa: Brilliant. I can't wait to see that. And yes, that's a little bit frustrating because I would have liked to have seen a study with the 15 to 18. And even that I thought was still very conservative compared to some of the cancer dosages. But I understand from what Dr Berry Fowler said because of the decreased kidney function often in septic patients and so on, but it's just like yes, but the dying often. And it's because that was one of the arguments that was thrown at me, I could damage my dad's kidneys. The sepsis was doing that quite nicely and he was dying anyway. So why the hell?  So, but I think even at those dosages, we’ll hopefully see some fantastic results come out of it. And hopefully, in future we'll be able to do slightly more high-powered dosages. Dr Anitra: Yes. Well, the key is also the size of the study, our study is very small. And we were interested in being a scientist. I'm interested in how it's working in the body because once you understand how it's working, it makes it easier to design better studies and not our future studies.  And so, our study will be too small to show a yes or no, it decreases mortality or not—that we're leaving it up to the large studies to show there. And hopefully, we can put a bit more science behind how it's working, what's happening in the body.  Lisa: And it's such a complicated thing to design a study. People don't probably realize how the parameters and the limitations and the number of variables that you can look at and the primary outcomes and the secondary outcomes and so on.  Dr Anitra: Sepsis is such a complex variable that comes in as unique in this situation. So there's huge variability in the data. And that's where the biggest studies are good, because it helps decrease... Lisa: The statistical...  Dr Anitra: The statistical analyses of those studies. Yes, I'm looking forward to the results of the big studies coming out. Lisa: Yes, but these, these smaller ones are really, really important. So, and it's great that we've got one going in New Zealand. So, thank you very much for your work, Dr Anitra. It’s been absolutely fascinating. And thank you for your dedication to this. I really, really appreciate you. Dr Anitra: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com

Ascorbic acid or vitamin C is a known antioxidant. Clinicians have conducted numerous studies to discover its role and effectiveness on life-threatening diseases such as sepsis, acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), cancer and COVID-19. Dr Alpha 'Berry' Fowler joins us in this episode to share his work on vitamin C and its role in improving the survival of critically ill patients. He also talks about ongoing trials on vitamin C and its possible benefits on COVID patients. If you want to know more about the research backing up the success of vitamin C in disease treatment, then this episode is for you.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn the mechanism of sepsis in lung disease. Discover the role of vitamin C in treating patients with sepsis and ARDS. Find out more about past and ongoing trials on vitamin C.   Resources Learn about Dr Fowler's Phase 1 safety trial of IV vitamin C in patients with severe sepsis. Explanation lecture of the CITRIS-ALI study by Dr Fowler JAMA publication on CITRIS-ALI Article on the sequential organ failure assessment (SOFA) scores and mortality of patients involved in the CITRIS-ALI trials Dr Paul Marik's protocol for sepsis using vitamin C and steroids   Episode Highlights [04:02] How Dr Fowler's Research on Bacterial Sepsis Began Dr Fowler started working on mouse models to investigate sepsis. A solution made from mouse pellets was injected into ten mice, five of which received a treatment of vitamin C. The septic mice in the control group all died while those treated with vitamin C were crawling around, drinking water and eating. Dr Fowler then started using animal models to determine how vitamin C treats sepsis. [09:05] How Sepsis Damages the Lungs In sepsis, the lung barrier is injured. The progression of sepsis traps activated neutrophils in the capillary space of the lungs. Activated neutrophils release their DNA and enzymes, damaging the capillaries. Plasma then fills the air spaces, causing the patient to drown in their fluid. [09:34] The Role of Vitamin C in a Septic Lung In vitamin C-treated mice, the lung’s barrier function is preserved. Vitamin C stops neutrophils from disgorging their DNA into the extracellular space. Free DNA has become a marker to predict mortality. Blood reanalysis showed vitamin C lowered free DNA circulation as a result. Vitamin C completely inhibits the expression and appearance of inflammatory proteins. [16:15] Phase 1 Safety Trial Outcomes In a randomised, blinded trial, 24 patients were enrolled to determine the safety of vitamin C. Organ failure score was tracked in all patients. The higher the score, the higher the incidence of mortality. Patients treated with vitamin C saw a dramatic and significant reduction in their organ failure score. Vitamin C also improved their chance of survival. Intermittent infusion of vitamin C every 6 hours could get the plasma level up to 3000 times the normal level. [25:47] Phase 2 Proof-of-Concept Trial Outcomes Patients enrolled in the study had septic ARDS. The vitamin C treatment resulted in no adverse event. After 96 hours, 19 of 83 placebo patients died while only 4 of 84 patients with vitamin C died. Upon follow-up after 28 days, 46% of placebo patients died while only 30% of treatment patients died. This was the first blinded trial to show vitamin C’s impact on the mortality of patients with ARDS. [28:17] Explaining the Inconsistency of the SOFA Score Jean-Louis Vincent created the SOFA score. Jean-Louis Vincent sent a letter to the editors of Dr Fowler's work that the data was incorrectly analysed. Reanalysis showed the patients who died had the top SOFA score. Vitamin C significantly impacted organ failure scores. Vitamin C treatment resulted in a significant number of ICU-free days, improved mortality and more hospital-free days at day 60. [36:05] Is There Another Trial Underway? The NIH tasked the Prevention and Early Treatment of Acute Lung Injury (PETAL) Network to turn towards COVID treatment.  Dr Fowler started a trial on vitamin C as a treatment for patients with early COVID pneumonia, and the results are dramatic. There is another trial for sepsis and vitamin C planned by the PETAL Network involving 1000 patients across 69 medical centres. [39:48] Why Larger Doses of Vitamin C Are Not Administered The primary concern for higher doses of vitamin C is the formation of renal stones. A safety trial is first recommended before vitamin C treatment for COVID pneumonia can begin.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘The cage that the mice got the sepsis and the vitamin C, they were all crawling around, drinking water and eating. And I knew at that point that we had stumbled on something pretty significant’. ‘One of the first things we found was that the lungs of the treated mice that were septic, they weren’t injured’. ‘Most people understand sepsis as being a bacterial infection, but they don't understand that it's actually taking all the organs and causing oxidative damage to multiple organs, not just the lungs’. ‘We had kind of a basic grasp on the immune system and how vitamin C could alter the septic immune response and how vitamin C could protect the lung’. ‘Vitamin C was actually improving the possibility of survival’. ‘The amount of vitamin C that you administer is critical. Dose matters’. ‘You’re going to save not only thousands and eventually more — hundreds and thousands of lives. You’re going to reduce hospital bills enormously’.   About Dr Fowler In his 35 years of service at VCU, Alpha A. ‘Berry’ Fowler, M.D., Professor of Medicine and Director, VCU Johnson Center for Critical Care and Pulmonary Research, has had a profound influence at VCU and beyond. Considering his robust grant support and over 300 publications and abstracts in clinical areas including adult respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) and sepsis, he might well be lauded for that alone.  Likewise, with over 16 years as Pulmonary Disease and Critical Care Medicine (PDCCM) Division Chair, with numerous ‘Top Doc’ awards and other honours, his pursuit of excellence in clinical care, impacting thousands of patients and their families, might well be the highlight of most careers.  To learn more about Dr Fowler’s research on vitamin C, you may contact him at 804-828-9071 or send a message to alpha.fowler@vcuhealth.org.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your friends so that they can learn more about vitamin C. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. If you would like to work with Lisa one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation with Lisa here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations Lisa's latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how a mother and daughter defied the odds after an aneurysm left Lisa’s mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74 and the medical professionals told her there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Lisa used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and to bring her mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For Lisa’s other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling her ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books. Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for Lisa and Neil’s online run training coaching. For their epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. For Lisa’s gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hi everyone and welcome to Pushing the Limits. This week I have an exciting interview with intensive care medicine doctor, Dr Berry Fowler, who is an intensivist from the Virginia Commonwealth University. The director of the VCU unit via 35 years of service at the VCU Johnson Center for Critical Care and Pulmonary Research. And he's also the author of a number of studies around vitamin C. So today we're continuing that conversation that we've been having in the last few weeks around the importance of vitamin C. Last week, we had Professor Margreet Vissers on, from Otago University, talking about—who worked with vitamin C in cancer. She's been studying this for 20 years. And Dr Berry Fowler has been studying vitamin C in regards to sepsis and pneumonia and how to use it in COVID. And he's been researching in this area with vitamin C for over 15 years. So some really amazing insights into this incredible vitamin and how it can help with all of these things. So please don't miss this episode. If you enjoy the content, please share it with your family and friends. You know, there’s some important messages that we're wanting to get out in this vitamin C thing that I've been doing, because I lost my father recently and this would have been a major player and I was desperate to get him help with intravenous vitamin C, and I was unable to until way too late. And so I'm desperately wanting to get out the information about this research about the clinical studies that have been done, the research that's been done, to share this really important information.  As always, I really appreciate a rating or review for the show. If you can do that, that'd be so so appreciated. And if you've got any questions, please email me at support@lisa tamati.com, if you want to discuss anything that was brought up in these topics, in this podcast. I'm also doing some one on one consultations. I have a limited number of spaces available for people who are wanting to work with me one on one. If you are facing difficulties in areas from whether it be around some of your health aspects like head injuries, obviously I've spent five years researching head injuries. I have a lot of knowledge around vitamin C. I have a lot of knowledge around biohacking, around epigenetics trained as an epigenetics coach, gene testing, and so on. And I work with a very small number of people who are needing help with these areas. As well as of course run coaching and mindset in high performance. So if you're wanting to get some one on one support with me, please reach out to me it's lisa@lisatamati.com. And I can send you the information there. Right over to the show now with Dr Barry fellow who is sitting in Virginia in the USA. Well welcome everybody to Pushing the Limits. This week. I have a very special interview continuing our series around intravenous vitamin C or vitamin C in general. I have Dr Barry Fowler with me, who is sitting in Virginia and Dr Fowler has agreed to come and have a little chat today about his work in this area. Dr Fowler, I've done a wonderful extra introduction. So we won't go into all your amazing credentials and your achievements, of which there have been many. But Dr Fowler, can you just give us a little bit of background? You are the director of the VCU Virginia University over in the States. Can you tell us a little bit about your work and your background? Dr Berry Fowler: Okay, well, I am professor of medicine in the Division of Pulmonary Disease and Critical Care Medicine and I'm one of the ancient doctors in the division, just turning 71 last week. I trained at the Medical College of Georgia in the US, then went to the Medical College of Virginia in the US, then went to the University of Colorado for pulmonary and critical care disease training, and then came back and joined the faculty at Virginia Commonwealth University which used to be the Medical College of Virginia, it's now VCU, in 1982 and I've been here ever since. Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: I rose slowly through the ranks. I led the pulmonary division for a number of years, for approximately 17 years, and then stepped aside in 2016. And all during this time, at least for 13 years now, we've had this interest in vitamin C. And it's interesting how our interest in vitamin C developed. It first started at a very molecular level where we were studying cardiac ischemia, but some of the heart attendings. And then slowly began to get back to what we have been doing for years which was bacterial sepsis. And we had some molecular reasons that drove us towards vitamin C. And so first thing we did was we created an animal model of sepsis. And let me explain that. It was pretty straightforward to create. We had 30 gram mice and we went to the mouse cage and collected mouse pellets. Then took them to the laboratory and sonicated them really hard until it became a solution. Lisa:  So this is the fecal matter. Yes. Dr Berry: And we would take that solution and centrifuge it really hard so that all the solid matter went to the bottom of the tube and we just took off the liquid from the top, which contained multiple different kinds of organisms. Lisa:  So all the bacteria. Yes. Dr Berry: Yes. And so we took that, put it in the refrigerator overnight and then came in the next morning. And we had 10 mice. We had 5 control mice and then 5 treatment mice. So all the mice first were injected into their peritoneal space, you mentioned that earlier, with a tenth of an mL of this solution containing all this bacteria. And so all 10 mice. And then in the mice that were going to receive the vitamin C, we injected a tenth of an mL, which was 200 micrograms per gram of bodyweight of the mice and then closed off the light. By that point, it was about 4:00 in the afternoon. And just let the mice sit in the laboratory where we had left them and I always get to work at 6:00 in the morning and I was thinking, ‘Holy cow, I got to see what's going on.’ And so I went into the lab where we had the mice and the cage that was the control mice that were septic. They were all dead. In the cage that the mice got the sepsis and the vitamin C, they were all crawling around drinking water and eating. Lisa:  Wow. Dr Berry: And I knew at that point that we had stumbled on something pretty significant. This take us back to around 2010. Maybe 2009. My laboratory has had this intense interest in sepsis ever since I finished my training at the University of Colorado. And so what we decided is that we would begin to use the treatment animals and some control animals to determine exactly how vitamin C was working. Lisa:  To look at the molecular, the mechanism of action. Why is this happening? Why are they surviving better? Dr Berry: So what we did was—in these studies, we were always comparing the control mice to the treated mice. And one of the first things we found was that the lungs of the treated mice that were septic, they weren't injured. Lisa:  Wow. Dr Berry: And we have a number of ways to determine the way a lung is injured. One of the things that happens in sepsis, and this might have been what you and I were talking about earlier, is the lungs barrier function, which is the ability to keep the blood in the blood and keep the air in the air. Lisa:  Yes. Dr Berry: It gets injured. And so the bloodstream floods into the airspaces of the lung. Lisa: And fills it. Dr Berry: Yes. And one of the things we discovered was lung barrier function was preserved and the vitamin C treated septic mice. Lisa: Wow. So you're perceiving that it’s stopping the plasma and the neutrophils getting into the alveolar space. Dr Berry: Exactly.  Lisa: And the NET— of one of your lectures, you talk about neutrophil extracellular traps (NET). Is that a part of the barrier function?  Dr: Berry: Very nice. When are you starting medical school? Lisa: Thank you, Dr Fowler. Dr Berry: So what happens as sepsis progresses is that there are a bunch of molecules that live in the capillaries of the lung that begin to get expressed. And what they do is they trap neutrophils that are activated in the capillary space of the lung. And one of the things that happens in a highly activated neutrophil is they disgorge their DNA and all of the enzyme systems inside a neutrophil begin to damage the capillaries. And then what happens as the capillaries get injured, the plasma from the lung, just a vein from the bloodstream, just flows into the lungs. Lisa: So you’re basically lost—it's like your skin barrier, if you like, between the ear and your insides is disintegrating. Dr Berry: Well, one injury from sepsis is like drowning. Lisa: Wow, so you fill it with your own fluid. Dr Berry: The airspaces of the lung fill up with your own plasma. Lisa: So when you have, cause sepsis—I don't think most people are not aware of the progression of sepsis to acute respiratory distress syndrome. That this is a sort of a linear progression that happens, isn't it? That you actually get lung—because most people understand sepsis as being a bacterial infection but they don't understand that it's actually taking all the organs and causing oxidative damage to multiple organs, not just the lungs, but particularly the lungs. And so this is a very important finding that what you've had here because this means that if you can stop the vitamin C, if the vitamin C can stop the neutrophils from disgorging their own DNA into the extracellular space, which is then, that's in a marker, isn't it? That cell-free DNA, when you take a plasma drawn and you see that cell-free DNA floating around at a certain level, that's a predictor of mortality, isn't it? Dr Berry: Listen, you've done some fabulous reading. But let me just tell you, it's been known for several years that in septic individuals, one of the unfortunate things that will predict mortality is how high the cell-free DNA arises in the circulation. And I don't want to jump too far here, but I will tell you and the vitamin C trial that we reported one year ago this month, that when we reanalyzed the blood from those individuals, we found that vitamin C dramatically lowered the cell-free DNA in the treated patients. Lisa: Wow. That was in the CITRIS-ALI study? Dr Berry: Exactly. Lisa: Oh, okay. That's a new finding from that study because, yes, we will go through that progression of how you got to do that study. So let's bookmark that for a moment and backtrack because that is a very important finding for that study. So let’s backtrack a little bit. So we are talking about vitamin C being able to protect the lungs if we put it very simply and protect the barrier function of the lungs, stop the neutrophils from disgorging the DNA and causing these traps, which is a predictor of mortality. What are other things is vitamin C doing? And why is a septic patient, without fail, going to be very low in vitamin C? So you’re using that for Vitamin C. Dr Berry: I'll get to that in a minute. But what we demonstrated in a huge number of murine mouse studies is that the septic lung in a control animal, the septic lung began to express many inflammatory proteins. And that's just your endogenous immune system trying to protect itself. But we showed in the next cage, in the septic mice that we had treated with Vitamin C, that the expression and the appearance of those inflammatory proteins was totally inhibited completely.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: Yes. The idea of leaping from preclinical animal studies into humans was that we had kind of a basic grasp on the immune system and how Vitamin C could alter the septic immune response and how Vitamin C could protect the lung. Well, protecting the lung in terms of septic critical illness is very, very important. Lisa: Absolutely. And so then you went to a phase one safety trial, which was really to look at some basic markers. Is this going to be damaging for people if they get vitamin C and look at hypertension? And is it going to affect the kidneys and so on. I think some of those safety mechanisms. Can you tell us a little bit about that phase one safety trial and then the outcomes of that trial? Dr Berry: Well, I can tell you, I had this really close colleague. His office sat right next to mine. He's a molecular biologist, basic scientist. And after we'd done all these murine studies, one day he walked in, he looked at me, said, ‘Fowler, this needs to go into the hospital. We've developed all this data. You've got to make it happen to get it into the hospital’. We designed this little safety trial, enrolled 24 patients. The safety trial was randomized and it was blinded. And so half the trial was just controlled sepsis. The other half was septic patients treated with Vitamin C and we had no idea who the hell was giving vitamin C to people who were critically ill. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: And we found it had no impact. But one of the things we were shocked at, and we were just trying to define, was vitamin C safe?  Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: One of the things we tracked was what is called an Organ Failure Score. And we found that all of the patients treated with Vitamin C, their Organ Failure Score reduced dramatically and significantly. Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: And the way Organ Failure Scores, basically you're counting numbers. A higher number is a higher incidence of mortality. Lower numbers are improved and that vitamin C was actually improving the possibility of survival. Lisa: So this is like, in my father's case, is the sepsis progressed and I was unable to get him Vitamin C as we discussed earlier, Dr Fowler, early enough for him to get to survive. But as I watched his sepsis progress, more and more organs started to fail. So his liver started to fail. His kidneys started to fail. His heart started to fail. And so this is the Organ Failure Score. If this person's Organ Failure Score is going up, that is a very strong predictor of mortality. Dr Berry: Yes. Lisa: Okay, so this was reduced with the people who received the Vitamin C in the small trial. Dr Berry: So what we did, we took the data, we combined it with our preclinical data, and applied to the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute. They had just published an announcement where they were asking for anybody who could think of some clever trial. And we said, ‘Well’. And so we submitted an application. What the NIH wanted, they wanted the proposal for a phase two, proof of concept trial. Lisa: Right. Dr Berry: And so what we proposed was a trial that had seven medical centers. I have friends in seven medical centers around the US. And with this application in and that was I guess you guys don't remember Hurricane Sandy. Lisa: Yes, I do. Dr Berry: Hurricane Sandy was just—it killed the Atlantic Coast of the US. And the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute happens to sit on the Atlantic Coast in Washington, D.C. And it was a year and a half before we found out that we had received the highest priority score because of the application that we had submitted. And the NIH gave us 3.2 million dollars to do a multicenter, randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled trial, proposing to administer 50 milligrams per kilogram of intravenous Vitamin C every six hours for ninety six hours. Patients were continuously receiving vitamin C. Lisa: Can you explain why that continuous topping up that level is important every six hours? Dr Berry: That's a great question. So from the safety trial that we had performed, we analyzed the plasma Vitamin C levels that we had achieved by infusing. So basically someone your size, for example, would probably get maybe 3 1/2 grams intravenously every six hours for ninety six hours. And what we showed was, we could get the plasma level up to basically three thousand times the normal plasma level. So from a normal diet, human plasma levels of vitamin C are about 70 to 80 micromolar. When you give the protocol that we had settled with, we got the Vitamin C levels up to five millimolar. Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: Yes. And so that's what we were shooting for in this NIH trial. And that's what we did. We charged into it, the trial. What we had proposed again, was the Organ Failure Score as well as the two biomarkers. We also proposed in the secondary outcomes, days on mechanical ventilation. Lisa: Yes, which is hugely important. Dr Berry: And what we were studying specifically, was patients who were septic, who had gone on to develop acute lung injury called Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome, ARDS. And so when a patient was septic, like your father, we would become a fly on the wall and visit the patient every day until a lung injury developed. And that's when they would get randomized. Lisa: This was a critical—from my analysis of the data, that was a critical thing in the phase. So you had to wait until I basically had developed ARDS before you were able to put them. So this wasn't really a sepsis trial, but more of an ARDS trial. So the progression of the sickness comes into play here, doesn't it? If you’ve gone through day one, like in the phase... Dr Berry: In the safety trial... Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: The second aseptic individual walked in the door, that's when they got random. Lisa: Which is a much better, more effective with the timing. Dr Berry: We had a couple of patients who got Vitamin C in the emergency room. Lisa: Yes, wow.  Dr Berry: You know you have to get informed consent. You have to get the pharmacy on board and get the patient enthused. Lisa: I wish I'd had you tending to my father. We could have had that from the moment he got to the emergency. That would have been, I think we would have had a different outcome. But so this was a key point that you had to wait until I had developed ARDS. So in this CITRIS-ALI trial, so here you have, I think it was 47 patients in the control and 47 in the intervention group, was it right? Dr Berry: 83. And 84 in the Vitamin C treatment. Lisa: Oh, 83. I'm sorry. Sorry. So 167. One of the big questions I had in my— why was mortality not one of the primary objectives of the study? Dr Berry: That has been the most frequent question. When we answered the NIH, they had put out a program called, UM1, and we applied to the UM1 program and they were not interested in mortality as a primary outcome. Part of it was this. There had been hundreds of sepsis trials and nobody had ever shown any impact on a treatment for sepsis. And so NIH didn't want to get burned again so they said that they wanted a physiological outcome. That was the Organ Failure Score. And they wanted a biochemical outcome. Those were the biomarkers. Lisa: It's the C-reactive protein, procalcitonin and thrombomodulin. And yes. So the reasoning was that we don't want to shoot for the stars here and automatically hope for a decrease in mortality and a decrease of days in hospital. We're going to go for something else just to see if this has legs, so to speak, if this treatment is possible, possibly going to work. And that's why they went for the safer scores, rather than the mortality. Looking back, do you think... Dr Berry: By the way, we haven't talked about this yet, but SOFA stand for Sequential Organ Failure Assessment Score. Lisa: Thank you. Yes, it's amazing the jargon that you pick up and then forget that you haven't explained yourself. So what actually was the outcome? This was a seven multicenter trial. You did a double blinded. This was incredibly important because I know Dr Paul Marik had also done a study with intravenous Vitamin C, thiamine, and hydrocortisone. And one of the criticisms that was thrown at him was that it wasn’t a double blind, randomized controlled trial, so it didn't have any meaning, which is absolutely tragic. So this was—what was the outcomes of this phase two trial? Dr Berry: So we enrolled 170 patients. One of the placebo patients we had to take out because that patient did not have septic ARDS. They had Acute Eosinophilic Pneumonia. That's something else to discuss later. And then in the Vitamin C arm, we had two patients with Acute Leukemia who had no coagulation in their bloodstream and they were hemorrhaging into their lung and that was not sepsis. So as I mentioned, we had 83 in the control placebo and 84 in the vitamin C-treated group. First of all, we saw no, and I emphasize capital N-O, adverse events. There was not a single adverse event.  Lisa: Exactly. Dr Berry: All right. And so what we showed was in 96 hours, placebo patients in the trial, 19 of 83 died within 96 hours. Lisa: Wow. Dr Berry: In the Vitamin C group, 4 of 84 patients died. And if you look at the statistics and the analysis of that, the difference is P=0.0007. We then followed the patients out because in sepsis trials, there's always this demand to see what is happening to a patient at 28 days. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: And what we showed was 46% of placebo patients died and only 30% of the Vitamin C treated septic patients with ARDS died. Lisa: Wow, that's a huge result in my mind. Dr Berry: And that was the first trial. I'm not slapping myself on the back, but I will just tell you, that was the first trial to ever show in a blinded fashion, an impact on ARDS.  Lisa: Yes. On mortality of ARDS. Dr Berry: Yes. Lisa: And this was extremely sick people. Now, unfortunately, the SOFA scores didn't show any difference and the C-reactive protein markers didn't show any difference. Dr Berry: So let me explain. Lisa: Is it because... Yes, is it because of the mortality. Dr Berry: So we thought publishing the results of the trial in probably one of the most important journals on the planet, JAMA, which as it turns out, is a very, very conservative journal. And they had their ideas about what we could and we couldn't say. So we published, and this is very important for you to listen to and all of your listeners, we published that there was no difference in the SOFA scores at 96 hours. And immediately, letters to the editor started coming in and one of the most important letters to the editor was the person who created the SOFA score. His name is Jean-Louis Vincent in Brussels, Belgium. He told us that we had analyzed the data incorrectly and that what we were reporting was a survivorship bias. Lisa: What does that mean? Dr Berry: And what he said we needed to do, and he provided five publications where he had important statisticians tell him that analyzing the data, like we reported, as a worst rank, best rank scenario, that we had to reanalyze it so that the patients who died, what we were reporting was the SOFA scores on the people who had survived. Lisa: Not the ones who died. Dr Berry: We had not considered the SOFA score on the patients who died. Lisa: And because they died so quickly. Dr Berry: So what we did was we went back and the people who died along the way, those 19 patients, they got the top SOFA score. The patients who survived and left the unit, they got a low SOFA score. And so when we reanalyzed the data, according to the way these letters that had come in from Dr Vincent and two or three other colleagues, it turns out that Vitamin C significantly impacted the Organ Failure Score. Lisa: Wow.  Dr Berry: And then we—here's the important thing, we reported that February 25th of 2020. So you can go to JAMA, you can look it up and you can see our response to the SOFA score reanalysis. Lisa: Because this was a key factor in my father's case. They threw the CITRIS-ALI trial at me and the original data from JAMA, which said negative result, which when I analyzed... Dr Berry: That lets you know that the doctors were not reading JAMA. Lisa: Exactly. And they weren't on the up to date and they did not look at secondary outcomes and they did not look at the parameters of the score and I was not able to present the case. They had just read it briefly. Dr Berry: Let me go on. We had a strong trend to ventilator-free days and the people who got the Vitamin C, but it just missed statistical significance. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: But we had a strong significance for the people who got Vitamin C in Intensive Care Unit-free days. Lisa: Which is huge. Dr Berry: So the people who got Vitamin C had a significantly higher number of ICU-free days. There was an improved mortality. The other thing is patients who got Vitamin C had significantly more hospital-free days at day 60. Lisa: Wow. So they were actually out of the system altogether. Do you think—now this is controversial, I'm playing devil's advocate here. But do you think the fact that it costs so much for someone to be in ICU when they have sepsis—I think in America it's something like, to the order of 60,000 dollars US a day—and the medications that they are typically on are costing around 20,000 dollars a day, do you think that if you come along with Vitamin C and you start dropping the mortality rate, you start dropping the days? Is that part of the resistance to accept and acknowledge these findings, that the pharmaceutical companies are going to lose out on profit? Dr Berry: Oh no no no. No, no, no. At VCU, Virginia Commonwealth University—that Anitra knows well—the average care cost per day is about 46,000 per day because that accounts for medical care, nursing care, radiology, all laboratory data, respiratory care, caring for the ventilator. All of that is somewhere in the neighborhood of about 45 to 50,000 dollars per day. And so, if you have a treatment, first of all, that gets people out of the ICU earlier and keeps them out of the hospital, think about the impact on the cost of care. Lisa: Yes, it’d be huge. Dr Berry: But here's the other thing. There's not going to be any drug company out there who would argue with that. They are all trying to do the best they can with their different antibiotics, but the common antibiotics that are administered in an ICU when patients are septic levofloxacin, meropenem, vancomycin. Just one day of meropenem is 1500 per day. Lisa: Exactly. It's a lot of money.  Dr Berry: Yes.  Lisa: So you don't think that... Dr Berry: And listen to this. That's the cost of the drug. That's not the cost of pharmacy preparing the drug, cost of nursing administering the drug and so on and so on and so on.  Lisa: Okay, so all right. So if you can work this problem out and if you can get this in all ICUs around the world, we're going to save not only thousands and eventually more hundreds of thousands of lives, you're going to reduce the hospital bills enormously. So this is incredibly important work. And you've proven—so the statisticians proved in that phase two trial that the way that you are measuring it was incorrect because a lot of people, as you said, 19 died in those first four days in the control group and only four, so that skewed—if you like—the statistics to initially look like we hadn't had a win here. Now, that's been rescinded and you've managed to get JAMA to publish it in a different light, that the SOFA score was impacted. What has been the effect now? Have you got another trial underway or have you got one in sight? Because this work’s too important, obviously, not to be taken further into a phase three. Dr Berry: All right, so you are in New Zealand where there's not much COVID.  Lisa: No. Dr Berry: We are in the United States, where it's a pandemic, where we are close to 220,000 people who have died from the virus. We are at 50,000 new cases per day. Lisa: Oh my God. It's so...  Dr Berry: And there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,800 to 2,000 patients dying per day of COVID. And so because of that, the network that I'm part of, that unfortunately—I'm going to have to jump off and listen to it, because it's been going on since 2:00, the annual meeting of the Prevention and Early Treatment of Acute Lung Injury Network, abbreviated P-E-T-A-L, the PETAL Network. The PETAL Network was tasked by the NIH to turn sharply towards COVID treatments. Lisa: Yes. That makes sense. Dr Berry: And so we were thinking, ‘Well, maybe vitamin C to treat patients with early COVID pneumonia’. And so what we did was we started a trial. We have studied 20 patients now and that trial is complete, where patients who develop COVID infection and develop early COVID pneumonia, so it's just at the start of an oxygen requirement, are treated with Vitamin C and the results have been pretty dramatic. We are in the midst of writing that up. But again, it's a—open label trial. It's not blinded. Everybody in the world knows that an open label trial does not have the power like we did with CITRIS-ALI. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: And so what is happening at a world level is that all of the health organizations around the world have come to bear to try to design treatments for COVID pneumonia. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: And that is ongoing right now. And there are like 9 or 10 major networks in, across the world. Probably, I'm not sure if New Zealand is included in that, but Europe, the US, possibly Australia. I don't know if they commit to participating in what is called the network of networks formation. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: So right now, the next trial for patients with sepsis that's not COVID is going to be conducted by the PETAL Network where we will be probably next April, starting a trial with a thousand patients. Lisa: Wow.  Dr Berry: Using vitamin C conducted by the PETAL Network. Lisa: Gotcha. Dr Berry: And the PETAL Network has 69 medical centers. So doing a trial that would get a thousand patients can be done within a year. Lisa: Wow. So this is exciting stuff because this is hopefully you'll be able to reproduce and show a strong correlation between intravenous vitamin C and I'd like to see the decrease in the mortality rate. That would be a key factor. Some centers are already using vitamin C because as you mentioned before, there were no adverse reactions. And this is like in all of the studies that I've seen there has never— this is a low risk intervention and my argument when fighting for my father was that, ‘He's dying. There is no other options. Why can't I throw the bus in? Why can't I put intravenous Vitamin C’? And they were like, ‘You still have to go through all the ethics committees’. I had to sign off from every single doctor and every single nurse in the ICU unit of which there are many. Dr Berry: Well, let me make another statement. So Paul Marik, who was using 1.5 grams of Vitamin C, 200 milligrams of thiamine and 50 milligrams of hydrocortisone, administered every six hours. That meant that the patients were only getting 7 grams. Lisa: Very small amount. Dr Berry: In the CITRIS-ALI, I mean, some patients got 16 to 18 or 20 grams. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: According to body weights, 50 milligrams per kilogram. In the aftermath of that article that you mentioned that Marik published, there have been efforts to repeat that trial. The vitamins trial came out in January, using that and it failed. Then another trial, the ACTS trial using the Marik protocol failed. And then a trial that I just participated in called the VICTAS trial completely failed. And so the Marik protocol is not an effective treatment for sepsis. And well, look. As I think Anitra Carr mentioned to me a couple of years back, the amount of vitamin C that you administer is critical. Lisa: Absolutely. Dr Berry: So dose matters. And the adult, again, of your size, you probably weigh 120 pounds or something would probably get somewhere in the neighborhood of about 12 and a half to 13 grams, spread out over a 24-hour period. And then you would get it for four days. Lisa: Yes. And that is still a relatively low dose. Dr Berry: It is. Lisa: When I'm doing intravenous vitamin C with my mum, I did it with my dad prior and unfortunately, months prior to his aneurysm. Too little, too late. We were getting 30 grams. We get 30 grams a week. When I take my mum and niece today for an intravenous Vitamin C is a prophylactic as I try to keep her, as a 79 year old healthy, 30 grams. So why—I had this question certainly with Dr Marik’s protocol. It seemed to me to be very low, although the six hourly is obviously a very important point as well. Why not do the bigger dosages? Like in Japan, I know they did a study with up to a hundred grams of Vitamin C in a burns case, a burns trial, where they had some markers of sepsis there. Why are you not trying higher levels? Dr Berry: Let me come in here quick? Because I'm going to have to jump off in about 8 minutes. But listen to this. The major concern for those high doses of vitamin C, and if you talk to the oncologists who have been using it for years, they will give, like you said, they will give massive doses. And I'm talking massive, like in somebody with pancreatic cancer, they will get 60 to 80 grams intravenously, Monday, Wednesday and Friday for seven weeks. Lisa: Yes. Dr Berry: But the major concern, in somebody who's septic, who's hypotensive, in shock, that you're giving vitamin C, one of the major concerns is that it causes a significant rise in oxalate crystals formatiion in the kidneys. Now, I will mention here in the CITRIS trial, we had no evidence of renal stone formation. Lisa: No. And I mean, that was one of the arguments that the doctors had at me, ‘You could have damaged his kidneys’. And I said, ‘Well, the last time I looked, being dead damages your kidneys too’. To me, that wasn't even a consideration. And he had—after the very first vitamin C, and for my dad, his kidney function went from 27 percent to 33 percent. He's actually improved his kidney function overnight. And I know that's just one anecdotal case, but kidney stones are not going to kill you either. So surely that's not the most important consideration here when you've got a septic patient who is on death's doorstep. Dr Berry: With vitamin C struggling in the United States after the CITRIS trial, the Federal Food and Drug Administration, they always have to be concerned about adverse events. And we have put together a trial randomized and double blind using Vitamin C in patients with COVID-pneumonia. That's about to start. Lisa: Wonderful. Dr Berry: And we had, I unfortunately let my IND, Investigational New Drug lapse after CITRIS. And so I've had to claw our way back into the good graces of the FDA. And one of their major, major, major complaints was, ‘You're going to be forming renal stones’. And we're using the same protocol that we used in CITRIS. So FDA got their nephrologists involved and finally gave us the IND. But for us to begin treatment of COVID pneumonia, they have demanded that we first do a small safety trial to show that we are not causing any renal stone formation. We can get that done. We currently have somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 to 70 COVID patients in the MCV hospitals right now. Lisa: Wow. Well, Dr Fowler, look, I know I'd love to spend another five hours with you discussing all this because I think it's incredibly important, both for COVID and for the sepsis and for pneumonia and for obviously, for cancer. I just want to thank you for your dedication to this. I mean, you could be in retirement and sunning yourself somewhere, relaxing, but, you know... Dr Berry: That's right. Lisa: You know that this work is critically important. And I heard one of your lectures is the equivalent of two 747 planes going down every day filled with people. Dr Berry: Every day in the United States. Lisa: In the United States alone. Dr Berry: That’s just in the U.S. Lisa: Yes. And these people, thousands of families being destroyed with losing loved ones. I'm one of those, unfortunately, sitting here all the way in New Zealand. And so this work is incredibly important. So please keep going. And I'm desperate to hear what comes from this COVID clinical trials and the other sepsis trials, obviously. So thank you so much for your work, Dr Fowler, and I really appreciate you. Dr Berry: It's been wonderful meeting you and speaking with you, and your and your audience. And when you have Anitra on a couple of weeks, give her my regards. Lisa: I will definitely do that, Dr Fowler. That's been awesome. Thank you, Dr Fowler. And all the very best there in Virginia. Dr Berry: Take care. Bye. That’s it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review and share with your friends, and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.  

TUNE IN: Today’s Liz's Healthy Table is all about tips and tricks for eating healthy when you’re on a budget. My guest is Lisa Leake, author of the new book, 100 Days of Real Food on a Budget. Lisa is a mom, founder of 100 Days of Real Food, and she’s here with practical advice for cutting processed foods out of your diet and cooking up tasty recipes without breaking the bank. You'll hear Lisa’s story about her family’s diet makeover ... and her real world secrets for eating well when budgets are tight. Together, we'll share a few recipes from Lisa’s new book including, My Favorite Summer Salad, Zucchini Egg Scramble, and Oatmeal Cookie Energy Bites. What you’ll hear in this episode: 100 Days of Real Food: The backstory! The subjectivity of the terms, “clean eating” and “real food,” which Lisa defines as foods with five or fewer whole ingredients. Lisa wrote the cookbook, in part, to combat the belief that ...“it’s too expensive to eat a healthy diet!” and she stuck with a budget of $125/weekly for a family of four. Some of Lisa’s top tips for eating real food on a budget: Plan ahead with a menu Don’t toss leftovers, but be creative with them Understand expiration dates Utilize inexpensive foods and staples Identify your “nice to haves” vs. your “need to haves” A few favorites from the cookbook: Portobello Tartine, Chicken Burrito Bowls, and a terrific tomato/mozzarella salad. How she priced out the meals for the new cookbook Lisa’s meal plans available on her website. Prepear. My interview with Super Healthy Kids. We gave them a shoutout on the show. Using affordable eggs as a staple for your family. Don't toss those yolks! The whole egg is nutritious. Lisa’s Oatmeal Cookie Energy Bites: a delicious blend of oats, peanut butter, raisins, maple syrup, and cinnamon. An important tip from Lisa: To manage portions, stop eating when you feel full! Find out where Lisa gets her recipe inspiration. And get my recipe for Parmesan Fish Sticks. Lisa’s biggest aha moment was when she added up meal plan costs and realized the budget could stay around $100/week for a family of four. What’s next for Lisa? Being more proactive about redesigning her online programs and school lunch programs. How YOU can get started: “Don’t be overwhelmed with big changes in cutting processed foods. Start small so you can stick with it like start and don’t give up. Resources: 100 Days of Real Food: https://www.100daysofrealfood.com  / FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/100daysofrealfood/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/100daysrealfood/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/100daysofrealfood/  Cookbook Giveaway:  Enter for a chance to win a copy of 100 Days of Real Food on a Budget: Simple Tips and Tasty Recipes to help you CUT OUT PROCESSED FOOD Without Breaking the Bank by Lisa Leake. (This giveaway is U.S. only, please.) To enter, post a comment at the end of this post and tell me about YOUR best tip for eating healthy on a budget. Giveaway ends October 10, 2018 at noon EST. Good luck! 

TUNE IN: Today’s Liz's Healthy Table is all about tips and tricks for eating healthy when you’re on a budget. My guest is Lisa Leake, author of the new book, 100 Days of Real Food on a Budget. Lisa is a mom, founder of 100 Days of Real Food, and she’s here with practical advice for cutting processed foods out of your diet and cooking up tasty recipes without breaking the bank. You'll hear Lisa’s story about her family’s diet makeover ... and her real world secrets for eating well when budgets are tight. Together, we'll share a few recipes from Lisa’s new book including, My Favorite Summer Salad, Zucchini Egg Scramble, and Oatmeal Cookie Energy Bites. What you’ll hear in this episode: 100 Days of Real Food: The backstory! The subjectivity of the terms, “clean eating” and “real food,” which Lisa defines as foods with five or fewer whole ingredients. Lisa wrote the cookbook, in part, to combat the belief that ...“it’s too expensive to eat a healthy diet!” and she stuck with a budget of $125/weekly for a family of four. Some of Lisa’s top tips for eating real food on a budget: Plan ahead with a menu Don’t toss leftovers, but be creative with them Understand expiration dates Utilize inexpensive foods and staples Identify your “nice to haves” vs. your “need to haves” A few favorites from the cookbook: Portobello Tartine, Chicken Burrito Bowls, and a terrific tomato/mozzarella salad. How she priced out the meals for the new cookbook Lisa’s meal plans available on her website. Prepear. My interview with Super Healthy Kids. We gave them a shoutout on the show. Using affordable eggs as a staple for your family. Don't toss those yolks! The whole egg is nutritious. Lisa’s Oatmeal Cookie Energy Bites: a delicious blend of oats, peanut butter, raisins, maple syrup, and cinnamon. An important tip from Lisa: To manage portions, stop eating when you feel full! Find out where Lisa gets her recipe inspiration. And get my recipe for Parmesan Fish Sticks. Lisa’s biggest aha moment was when she added up meal plan costs and realized the budget could stay around $100/week for a family of four. What’s next for Lisa? Being more proactive about redesigning her online programs and school lunch programs. How YOU can get started: “Don’t be overwhelmed with big changes in cutting processed foods. Start small so you can stick with it like start and don’t give up. Resources: 100 Days of Real Food: https://www.100daysofrealfood.com  / FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/100daysofrealfood/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/100daysrealfood/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/100daysofrealfood/  Cookbook Giveaway:  Enter for a chance to win a copy of 100 Days of Real Food on a Budget: Simple Tips and Tasty Recipes to help you CUT OUT PROCESSED FOOD Without Breaking the Bank by Lisa Leake. (This giveaway is U.S. only, please.) To enter, post a comment at the end of this post and tell me about YOUR best tip for eating healthy on a budget. Giveaway ends October 10, 2018 at noon EST. Good luck! 

Oakland entrepreneur Jessica Gray Schipp shares her life's journey of coping with multiple food allergies and her book #AllergicToEverything, a cookbook and guide for people living with multiple food allergies.Transcript:Lisa:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm speaking with Jessica Gray Schipp. She's the author of a new cookbook and guide for people suffering from multiple food allergies.Welcome to the program, Jessica.Jessica:Thank you.Lisa:You just wrote this book called Allergic to Everything, which is an incredible guide and a cookbook for people with allergies. Are you allergic to everything?Jessica:I'm allergic to several things. It's called #Allergic to Everything and I am allergic to wheat, gluten, corn, soy, oats, eggs, shellfish, and possibly sesame.Lisa:You've been through a lot.Jessica:Yes.Lisa:This has taken decades to put this together. How did you figure out what to do first? Tell us your life's journey.Jessica:Well, I knew I was lowered to shellfish when I was a little kid. I was about six and I had an anaphylactic reaction and that was really scary, so I kind of grew up conscious of what it was like to have that happen. And then when I was in my, I would say like mid-twenties, I started getting a lot of hives and odd reactions that I didn't know what it was.Lisa:And this is out east?Jessica:And this is on the East Coast, yeah. And I was just going to literally every type of doctor that I could think of. My mom's a nurse practitioner, so she was sending me to like specialists and using her network and my body just slowly got worse and worse and worse. And then I ended up in Bloomington, Indiana with a friend from grad school and I arrived on her doorstep and I essentially looked like I was just dead. I had sties, I had hives everywhere and I didn't even know kind of how sick I was because I was so used to living that way.But she forced me to a doctor and they were basically like-Lisa:That was the first time you'd seen a doctor about it?Jessica:No, I had been seeing specialists but nobody identified it as food allergies and they didn't really know. So they just kept throwing me on steroids and different medications. And finally at that point in Bloomington, I was just in a place of I'm either dying of cancer or I have food allergies and I have to see what I can do. So I moved back home at that point and I did an elimination diet using all of these different tests I had gotten done with the food stuff because I was basically everything I reacted to. And I think that's also because my system was so hyperactive because it was so irritated all the time that it was triggering responses to more than what I really-Lisa:What does that mean? Elimination Diet? Because you talk about that and you also talk about the symptom tracker that you put together, which is also in the book.Jessica:Well I would say the elimination diet, I didn't start doing it with a symptom tracker. The one that's in the book is kind of a design that I came up with from trial and error and my experiences and what worked for me. I initially used something called a health minder, which I had found on Amazon and it was awesome, but it didn't quite track everything I wanted it to, so I've kind of made my own model.But in terms of the elimination diet, I did that without tracking initially. You basically, a lot of people start with removing the top eight food allergens.Lisa:And what are those?Jessica:Those are wheat, eggs, milk, fish, shellfish, nuts and peanuts.Lisa:Not corn?Jessica:No, corn's not one of the top eight, but I guarantee you this is my philosophy actually because we're shoving it in so much of the food.Lisa:Exactly.Jessica:I'm almost positive that when they revamped that topic eight, that that's going to end up on there [crosstalk]Lisa:I grew up in the Midwest and one of the things I noticed was the simultaneous rise of obesity and GMO corn farming.Jessica:No kidding. No kidding.Lisa:Even though no one is pinpointing that.Jessica:Yeah, and it's cheap.Lisa:Why do you think that's been left off the top?Jessica:I think that just not... I don't know. I think there's not a lot of money in research right now for food allergies. There aren't even really very reliable tests that have been developed. Everything does a lot of false positives. So it's really weird, which going back to the elimination diet, that's really the best way to determine what's triggering things.Lisa:It's very time consuming though, isn't it?Jessica:It's very time consuming. Yeah. Yeah. The process of writing the book took about six years, but the process of getting through the elimination phase and starting to learn about foods probably took like three months but a good year of getting used to it because at first I was just eating a piece of cheese or string cheese, just really basic foods like seed crackers, just nuts, like very plain stuff. And then after I got comfortable with that, I was able to expand and start trying to figure out how to cook the foods that I really missed because there's a lot to be missed when you have to take so much out.Lisa:So when you say "cook the foods you missed," coming up with recipes that would taste somewhat like them because you're not using the ingredients and that they've done in this book.Jessica:Yes. Yeah, so it's really a book of kind of comfort food and super holiday friendly and things just like muffins and breads and pizza and pasta sauce and tacos and it's super kid friendly too, I would say. I think I just had this desire to go back to the foods that I had grown up with-Lisa:Comfort food.Jessica:And figure out... Yeah, exactly, and figure out how to go from there.Lisa:Backing up a little bit, you were in Indiana, you went to this doctor, you started the elimination diet and then?Jessica:And then it was a long process of kind of realizing that I had to start tracking certain things when I would have reactions because you're supposed to add one food back in at a time and then kind of wash yourself for up to basically three days, give or take. Because reactions can happen in many different ways. They can be on your skin, they can be in your digestive system, they can be instant or they can show up in three days. It's kind of a bizarre, bizarre world.Lisa:And the other thing is if you're social at all and you go out to eat at people's homes or in restaurants.Jessica:Yeah, don't trust anybody because nobody knows what they're talking about. And I love my friends and they are, some of them are really amazing and truly have an understanding and have memorized stuff and there are certain people that I really trust. But then there are other people who I know they intend well but they don't know that the shredded cheese that they're using happens to have corn starch on it to prohibit mold. And cornstarch really, really gets to me instantly. I get hives, which I hate. I hate when my symptoms show up on my body.Lisa:Well, in a way that's good because then you know pretty quickly something's wrong.Jessica:Right, that's true.Lisa:In the midst of this discovery. Where were you shopping?Jessica:I was in the Midwest at first and basically I went home pretty quickly after that. I went back to right outside of Washington, DC, in Arlington and I moved back in with my mom, which was hard because I had just gotten my master's and I thought I was going to go into the world rather than a retreat. But yeah, so I went home and my mom has always been very health conscious, so she... There's a little place called Mom's Organic Market and I think it's an Alexandria technically, but it's a great little like health food type of store. And I kind of stuck to stuff like that. And Trader Joe's for just basics, which I still love Trader Joe's today because they just offer so much of high quality stuff at amazing prices.My mom trained me in the organic produce selection and I kind of did like a little work trade. So I did their grocery shopping and did some cooking. And in exchange I got to kind of take some time. I had asthma as a kid. My mom kind of suspected that I had some corn allergies as a kid too because she kind of thought that I would get like fussy when I ate things with corn syrup in it. So there were periods where she suspected it, but nothing was identified until I was 27 when all of this kind of came together.Lisa:How did you get out here?Jessica:I eventually started looking for jobs and I'd kind of always dreamed of California and I found an AmeriCorps position working in East Oakland at a school and the whole idea was kind of like teaching creativity and putting creativity back into the classroom, which my undergrad was an art education so it was a really good fit and they give you a stipend to help you move across. So I ended up driving my little Honda Civic out here and it was pretty beautiful and incredible. And then I ended up, I thought I was coming to California and I was going to be this picturesque mountains and everything. And then I wound up like right in the middle of another city and it was kind of like what?Lisa:You mean like East Oakland?Jessica:Yeah. Being here has been the most incredible part of this journey. The food culture here is phenomenal. Really, you just have access to everythingLisa:People don't realize that unless they've lived elsewhere.Jessica:Yes.Lisa:Because if you're in the Midwest, you have to carve out time to find organic food.Jessica:Yes. Or those little co-ops. The co-ops are like the way to go.Lisa:The co-ops, they're usually near universities.Jessica:Totally. Yeah.Lisa:It's not easy.Jessica:No, no.Lisa:To find good food.Jessica:That's, yeah, 100% I agree with that. Yeah, and I guess that's been the blessing of being here is just that a whole... Like Berkeley Bowl and just a whole new world happened for me and I moved in with a bunch of foodies and learned a lot from them. And so all of these different things kind of came together.Lisa:And how did your allergies, did it improve here or...Jessica:Yeah. Yeah, it's been actually a drastic difference. I think the climate is better for me in some ways. So I think my skin in general has been a lot less irritated, but, but I think my quality of life has been better since moving out here. And I'm not sure exactly why.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Oakland based entrepreneur, Jessica Gray Schipp, the author of a book called Allergic to Everything for people suffering from multiple food allergies.So tell me when you decided to write this book.Jessica:I didn't really specifically decide to write it at first, I just started writing down the recipes that were working for me and I had a little notebook. I've always, you can see my journal here, I always have a journal. And so I just kind of started writing down what was working and I had some friends over for dinner and my friend Phil had asked me like, "What is that recipe? How did you do that? I can't even tell it's allergen free," which was kind of this real goal of mine was to trick the people into thinking the food had all their allergens.But yeah, and he looked at the notebook and he was just like, "Jess, you should publish this." And I hadn't considered that and I didn't think of it that way. And then I kind of ran with it.Lisa:And then when you say "ran with it," what are the steps that you took?Jessica:Well, it was more of a jog because I was teaching full time. So I started in the summers when I had my summers off. The first summer I basically typed up this notebook and wound up with about, or I guess it took me two summers to do that, but I wound up with about 115 recipes that I developed. And then more recently, so in August, I actually left my teaching job to do this full time and try to give it a real stab. And I sat down and wrote the guide, which I didn't realize was going to be so lengthy but-Lisa:It's comprehensive. I really enjoyed that.Jessica:Thank you for saying that.Lisa:Well yeah, you...Jessica:Thank you for saying that.Lisa:Not only recipes but you list resources for people, you get into household cleaning substances, that you can make on your own. I was surprised how comprehensive. It's over 200 pages.Jessica:Thank you. Yeah-Lisa:And also what to put in a pantry.Jessica:Right? Like your staples and where to get them and how to do it and you can do it affordably and you can also spend a lot of money on this stuff. There's a million ways to do it. Yeah, and it was fascinating to kind of go in because I think before moving out to California, I hadn't started to consider what was in the products I was using on my skin, for example. I was using really sensitive simple lotions and stuff like that. But for hair-Lisa:But even laundry detergent.Jessica:Or laundry detergent, exactly.Lisa:And people use these softeners and they always smell.Jessica:And they're full of chemicals and it's gross stuff and it irritates sensitive skin even if you don't have allergens. So just kind of all of that stuff has gone into it. And then just simple things like reading ingredient labels.Lisa:Just today I read an article that the USDA, they just announced now that instead of saying whether something has GMO ingredients, genetically modified, now they are opting for bio-engineered or BE on products. Some people think it's to avoid the labeled GMO because that's kind of a bad thing.Jessica:It has a stigma.Lisa:But it also allows companies to choose between the option of either writing out the warning saying, "This contains bio engineered food," include a just a BE label or this code that you have to swipe, which they assume most consumers will not do. It seems like it's a constant battle to get the true ingredients listed because...Jessica:Well, I want to comment on what you were just saying about the labeling of food. I think that that's one of the most frustrating things because you can slap all natural on it and it means absolutely nothing. They allow a lot of loopholes in this kind of stuff, which is why it's so important no matter what to flip the package over and actually read the ingredients.Lisa:Some of these ingredients, you look at them and you don't even know how to say them.Jessica:Well, and that's my rule. I have a 10 ingredient or less rule and you need to be able to pronounce all of them. The chemicals, it just, it's really unreal.Lisa:And this is mostly processed food.Jessica:It's mostly processed food, yeah, that has that.Lisa:So people who are shopping the middle aisles are going to see more of that.Jessica:Correct. Yeah. I'm a big a perimeter shopper now. I go into the middles for my brown rice pasta or some crackers.Lisa:Or olive oils.Jessica:Or olive oil, yeah, definitely loved my olive oil. I've been leaning into avocado oil too. That's-Lisa:And you talk about coconut being a good alternative to corn oils and things like that.Jessica:Yes. I think one of the interesting things was too with my skin, how irritated it was at the beginning of this journey. I started just trying to figure out natural things I could use to moisturize because normal lotion wasn't working. So coconut oil was something that was really, I was just like slathering it on. And it was really, really healing for me, which was interesting because a lot of doctors had told me to try these lotions with oats, which I hadn't realized at first that I was allergic too.There are also gluten free versions, but oats just in general give me a scarf rash. And so it was really weird and it was like making me more and more irritated. So then I started going backwards and doing just really simple like olive oil on my skin and it was amazing.Lisa:The difference.Jessica:And anti-inflammatory and yeah.Lisa:So tell me the difference between allergy and a simple intolerance.Jessica:It shows up differently in symptoms. Some things are more severe and tolerance is like your body and your system just can't handle it.Lisa:Is that worse than an allergy?Jessica:Yeah, because you're hurting yourself and you might not necessarily be aware. Like, if you continue, let's say you're a celiac and you're eating gluten, that can lead to huge complications where your digestive system just stops functioning on its own. There's all these thresholds. But I find all of those areas, like I go into it in the book but at the same time I find, I don't like all of the little narrow paths that they put with this. Like if a food doesn't work for you, I think it's good to stay away from it and find an alternative.Because people talk about food sensitivities and food intolerance and food allergy and what is the difference? And it's confusing but I think with intolerance is really your body won't tolerate it and you just have all these weird symptoms and you're used to living with them. So you go with it and you don't realize what's on the other side when you...Lisa:So it affects your mental health as well.Jessica:Yeah. Oh definitely. I think so hugely.Lisa:In your book, you lay out in a really nice way the daily symptom tracker also sort of a guide for the elimination diets. So this book is something somebody can actually start writing in right away.Jessica:Right.Lisa:Is that your copyrighted food tracker?Jessica:Yes.Lisa:It's not available yet?Jessica:No.Lisa:To the public. How did you finance publishing book? How are you doing it?Jessica:I took everything I had saved up from my teaching salary, which was challenging, and my Grandma Donna passed away a couple years ago and left me a little bit of money and I was going to use it for a business or an investment on a house and I decided to put it into this book because I just really believe in it. So I've put about $25,000 into getting to-Lisa:Of your own personal money.Jessica:Yeah, of my own money, into it now. And to finish the project, I decided to go onto Kickstarter and so the project is live now and it's live through June 17th at 11:11 PM.Lisa:And what are you trying to raise on Kickstarter?Jessica:$33,000.Lisa:And that'll take you to where you need to...Jessica:And that'll take me to where I need to be and to do it properly, to get the editing done and the printing, to mail out the rewards. Shipping is phenomenal when it comes to Kickstarter, which was a really interesting to learn.Lisa:What do you mean?Jessica:I would say about a third of that amount of money is what it costs to actually send the rewards to the backers. It adds up. And if you can do media mail for books, which is great, but if you add in-Lisa:What are your rewards for backers?Jessica:Currently we have the book. I have a dinner party option, so that's kind of low end, high end, and then in the middle there are gift sets so you can do like an apron gift set. I'm really, really big into aprons. I'm in love with them. I started sewing my own and then I just actually added a new reward, which I'm really excited about, which is a grocery tote but also a cooler. So it's kind of like bring it to the grocery store or to the picnic because I know you're carrying all your own food if you're allergic. And I'm trying to keep it really, really simple because it's really about the book at the root of it.Lisa:And how do people find out about a Kickstarter campaign?Jessica:I have a URL that is forwarding right now straight to the Kickstarter so people can go to hashtag, the word hashtag, and the word allergic together, hashtagallergic.com.Lisa:Not the symbol, the word?Jessica:No the word. Yeah, so hashtag written out, allergic written.com and it'll take you right there. But also if you're on Kickstarter you can just type in the word allergic or allergies and it should come right up.Lisa:And you also have a website?Jessica:Yes.Lisa:What is the link to that?Jessica:The website is allergictoeverything.life and on the website, this has been kind of a new experiment and I'm still playing around with it. At first it was a platform to share what was going on with the Kickstarter, but I've been working on starting a blog and sharing some recipes through there. So I don't have a huge collection, but it's something I'm going to keep growing so people can go on there for food, food tips, and I have all my favorite resources. I have recipes for my food allergy purse.Lisa:Do you ever list restaurants that might accommodate allergies in the Bay Area?Jessica:No, but that's something that I am really interested in doing actually. And I think that we live in such a friendly place for that. A couple of days ago, a woman from Toronto who has, that's kind of her mission in the food allergy world. She reviews places you can eat and she does profiles of people. So she did a profile of me and she really wanted to get into the places that you know you can eat and that are friendly. And I think that that's so important and I think we're really lucky on the West Coast to have such-Lisa:We are, but you made a point earlier that it was a good one. Even your friends, let's say someone decides they're going to have you over and you're allergic to allium, which is onions, garlic and all this stuff.Jessica:Right?Lisa:And they say, "There's nothing, I swear to you, there's nothing in this." And yet they use a canned broth.Jessica:Correct.Lisa:In a soup or a sauce, which is full of allium.Jessica:And probably maltodextrin.Lisa:And it doesn't say it on the label. It says "natural ingredients."Jessica:Right. That's the most unfair.Lisa:And so you can't get mad at people, but there needs to be a raising of awareness and that's something that you've done in this book.Jessica:Yeah. And I think that's my biggest motivation for all of this is... Well, it's really to make people's lives easier, learning how to navigate all these little intricacies, but awareness is so important because people just don't know and it's not their fault. It's just a matter of education and...Lisa:I just noticed there's more and more food allergies and I can't help but think that it's our air, it's our water, it's our soil. I don't know if anyone is looking at the root causes of this.Jessica:Yeah, I don't think many people are. I think there's a lot of people burying the root causes.Lisa:You don't mention it in your book either. But depending on where you come from, what you're exposed to.Jessica:One of the things that I think about a lot with that, which gets me a little crazy if I think about it too much, but is the fact that, so I'm able to eat meat, right? And let's say I want to eat a steak, but they're feeding that cow corn, which I'm allergic to.Lisa:GMO corn probably.Jessica:Yeah. So how does it affect me with the end product? And that's just something that is mind boggling and...Lisa:It is, but out here you can actually seek out a butcher that that gets meat from local people who they know what they're feeding the animals. But that's not true in most places.Jessica:Right, and most of the population doesn't have that luxury. And if they do, maybe they can't afford it. There's a lot of barriers to it, but I think it's a really systemic problem that needs to be looked at from the ground up. But when we keep coming up with these new, what did you say it was going to be, BE, on the package?Lisa:Yes, bio engineering.Jessica:And the natural ingredients.Lisa:It's deflecting.Jessica:It's deflecting. It's like the whole sugar thing in the 70s or whenever that whole epidemic started, but it's really incredible the lengths that companies go through to bury the truth from people and to just keep people uneducated.Lisa:Even sugar, it's not so easy in some places to find something made from natural sugar. It's either going to be genetically modified sugar beets or corn.Jessica:Yeah, and sugar is super inflammatory too, so it kind of all comes out the same in your system. But corn syrup, I really, I just really hate that stuff. I just feel like it's toxic and it's in everything.Lisa:What were your biggest challenges along the way or maybe surprises along the way as well in this whole process of getting this book out?Jessica:Well, I'm in the midst of the challenges right now. It's been really hard to connect with the community that I'm trying to connect with because there's a lot of barriers. So-Lisa:What are they?Jessica:I'm part of a lot of groups online for example with like food allergy communities. But I'm not allowed to post my project because it's seen as fundraising or an endorsement of a fundraising project. And same thing with every single organization that I've reached out to and I'm sending thirties of emails a day trying to get people to help me put this out there.So that's been the greatest challenge and the greatest barrier really. This isn't even about profit, it's just about getting it into the hands of people who need it, the hands of people who are struggling or just foodies who want to cook. Because really the book is... Anybody can use it. It's not, you by no means have to be allergic to appreciated.So connecting with people has been challenging and I feel like I've really had to prove myself in ways that have just been shocking to me. I didn't think I would have to beg food allergy people to see me as an authentic person just trying to put a resource out there.Lisa:Any positive surprises or challenges?Jessica:A lot of positive surprises. I've been just in awe of the support of family and friends and I had an amazing launch day, which was just incredible. But just-Lisa:When was your launch date?Jessica:I launched on May 15th during Food Allergy Awareness Week. So the campaign will be a total of 33 days. It ends on June 17th.Lisa:Let's talk about what you're going to do if you do make it. And if you don't make it.Jessica:To make the goal, I need a 1000 people to put $20 into the project. I think it's really feasible. And if the project succeeds, the plan is then I want the rewards to get out to people and the book itself to get out to people by December. So I will just jump right into the editing phase and illustration and then getting the book printed and shipped out.So I've been working with editors and plotting around that. I think it should take about between four and six months. I've given myself a lot of given myself enough padding, I think to make that happen. I really believe in this book and I'm not really focused on what's going to happen if it doesn't work because it's going to work. So on June 17th, I will know and I'm just kind of trusting that the next thing, yeah, will come and it will happen.Lisa:And so then you're going to be busy touring with this book.Jessica:Then I'm going to be really busy. Yeah, if it hasn't been busy enough, Kickstarter has been an adventure. It's a lot of work.Lisa:Let's say you get the book out and you're onto the next thing. Do you know what that's going to be?Jessica:Well I already have a another book in mind that is going to be like #Allergic to Everything Light because I think this book has a lot of comfort, delicious recipes. And I think that my cooking has shifted over time. So I kind of want to put just my newer, lighter. Yeah, just a little bit healthier. Initially, the things that I missed were breads and things with sugar in it and things like that. But no matter what, I've always been a teacher and I'll always be a teacher. So however I can teach, that's what I'll be doing.I was teaching for about five years, everything from yearbook to coaching robotics actually here at Berkeley. I was with high school most recently. And I think something that I think about in the future is teaching on the college level. I've kind of snaked my way up through all the grades and I found a really sweet spot in high school. But I think there's a really sweet spot in young adulthood when you're studying what you want and learning how you can manipulate the world and leave it a better place.Lisa:Do you feel like you've reached your comfort zone of allergies? You have your allergies under control?Jessica:I think I have my allergies under control. I don't always have temptation under control because it's a tempting world when everybody you live with is eating pizza. It's not always that easy not to eat it. Certain things I noticed trigger me and I'm still looking at them, like sesame for example. I kind of think that sesame oil causes me issues, but then I don't always think so. So I don't know. I think it's kind of an ongoing process.Yeah, and something to revisit too because a lot of people end up removing things and their system kind of gets this little break and then they're able to reincorporate them, which I've tried that. I haven't found that to be successful for myself, but I think it's possible for a lot of people, so yeah, I think it's a lifelong.Lisa:In your research, do you think that the human body will evolve to accept these bio engineered or GMO products ultimately?Jessica:I feel like we're evolving to reject them. If you look at just the ratio of wheat in things and the ratio of corn in things and that with the number of people affected by these things and the rate of the increase of allergens being diagnosed, especially in kids, it's outrageous. I don't think that we're helping ourselves. I think we're hiding a lot of things behind big bureaucratic systems.The way that the book is written is to be able to be used by anybody who's dealing with any of the top eight allergens. And this question has come up a lot by people looking at the project, wondering if their child's allergic to dairy and nuts, will they still be able to eat? And the answer is yes because every recipe is going to be flexible and your allergen will be able to be substituted within that. And I would say only 30% of the book probably contains those two items.So even without the flexibility of the recipes, there's still a ton of resources for everybody, but it is friendly to to all top eight allergens. And part of the reason that I wanted to do that is because I know that nobody's journey is the same and nobody's allergens look exactly the same and mine aren't all the top eight, but the top eight are responsible for 90% of the food allergic reactions. So I wanted to try to include as many people as I could.I think the things that made me fall in love with food, I think the food is all about our memories and about our experiences and little things go a long way and food attaches us to memories. And that's how we make memories with each other. And there's just a real sense of comfort in it, whether it was my grandmother taking the time to slice the grapes for the fruit salad and just shows love.Friendsgiving is how I started celebrating Thanksgiving when I came out here and just bringing people together. And I think that food really connects us with each other and with ourselves. And it's a big reflection on how we're taking care of ourselves and I think it's important and I think this book is important. I hope that people will consider supporting the project regardless of whether or not you have food allergies. Because I can practically guarantee, you know somebody who has food allergies and they deserve this resource.Lisa:Well, thank you, Jessica.Jessica:Thank you.Lisa:You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back in two weeks at this same time. 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Podcast Darren Standish and Lisa B Lisa Today I was interviewed by Darren Standish from Property Prosperity and we spoke about how to choose a real estate agent. Some of the things I discussed was about marketing, about advertising and about negotiation.   The difference between advertising and marketing – Advertising is one small part of marketing. Advertising is say.. advertising a specific property – so it’s putting an ad in the paper about a particular property, it’s doing a flyer about a particular property, it’s a for sale sign out the front of a particular property. Now marketing is everything else.. Marketing is building your brand.. it’s marketing you.  Marketing is the strategy.. Who is your buyer? What can you do to attract them.. what can you do to keep YOU top of mind awareness. I hope you enjoy this podcast.   Darren: Welcome to this week’s edition of Property Secrets. The show where we speak to experts from around the country to give us an insider's guide to buying and selling and investing in real estate. I know a lot of people out there that want to know how to choose a good real estate agent - they know that an agent can make a massive difference but they’re not really sure how to choose the best real estate agents. What I’ve done, I’ve gone and got Lisa B to come and join us - she’s actually a real estate coach from The Real Estate Hotline. Thanks for joining us Lisa. Lisa: Thank you for having me,,,, and I was going to say I’m in the sunny Gold Coast but it’s not, it’s pouring rain. (Laughing). Darren: (Laughing). Fantastic. Well thanks for joining us, like I’ve said, a lot of people you know, know the difference a real estate agent can make but they sort of struggle to work it out.   All the agents seem like they do the same thing and obviously, you know, especially nowadays, people think ‘oh maybe I can just sell it myself’…. so….. I want you to get on and really talk about the difference between a good agent and a not so good agent. Before we get to that..  I suppose if you could give people a bit of your background - you’re obviously a real estate trainer and coach and you give advice to real estate agents.  Did you start out as a real estate agent or how did you learn your skills? Lisa:   Yes, I started in real estate when I was about 22 years old. I’m 49 now so, yes. A long time. I worked in real estate for about 18 months before I bought my own business. So in my early 20’s I had my own real estate office. And that was scary, that was something that I learnt very fast. I had that office and that was near Wollongong, - I had a franchise and my own name as the brand -  I had those for a long time, then I opened up another office in Sydney.  And it was something that, in my very first business, I knew the area very well.   People would come to us because of the marketing and the work that we did. And then when I opened up in Mosman, we didn’t know anybody. We didn’t know the area. It was the complete opposite of what I was used to. So I really had to create a really big presence very fast. To show our experience and our credibility and all that sort of thing and I really worked hard on building our online profile and our offline profile in that area. And from that, I had a lot of real estate agents that would ring me and say ‘How did you do this with your online marketing’, ‘How did you do that’ and ‘How did you do this with your video’. And so that was how I created my first online course for real estate agents, on marketing…. Online marketing and that sort of thing so…. I’ve written books on the subject. And now I’m a real estate coach on demand. So, I’ve done coaching for a long time and online marketing - all sorts of things. So… real estate agents can ring me anytime if they’re stuck with say a buyer and they can’t get a deal across the line. Or they’re trying to get a property signed up or a listing -  they can call. Anything real estate related or business related.  So that’s a bit of my background as far as, you know how I got into the profession. It’s just been something, that… I love real estate, you know. I think once you get into real estate it’s in your blood so, I just love it. I love everything about it. I loved being a real estate agent. I love helping people find their ideal home... Finding their dreams and making it their family home. So it’s something that I’ve always been proud to say I’m a real estate agent. And I always did my best as a real estate agent.  I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday about being a real estate agent and sometimes it is tough. And it’s like, when you go to bed every night - you have to think ‘Have I done my best?’ and you answer ‘Yes, I have’. You sleep well…. If you haven’t, you learn from it, and you sort of and work on what you can improve on. Real estate gets into your blood, it’s just something that yes….  I just love it. As far as choosing a good real estate agent goes, or a great real estate agent goes. For me If I was going to choose a real estate agent, I would probably, if I didn’t know somebody personally or if I hadn’t seen anybody before, I would do a lot of research online. Because if you’re just going to ring the local real estate office and you don’t know anyone personally…. You haven’t watched them online, or you don’t know anything about them, it’s really just a lucky dip.  You are just kind of putting your hand in and picking out who ever you get. So you might ring the local franchise and say, I want to sell my house. You might get the person that’s been in real estate for five minutes, you might get the person who’s been in real estate for five years or 40 years. You don’t really know who you are going to get. So to me, if I was going to choose a real estate agent, I would really research and find somebody who’s probably a bit high profile, somebody who’s a bit out there. They are marketing themselves and they’re marketing their office. Now from being online you can form the ‘like, know and trust factor’, so you can follow somebody for a little while and you can go - I actually like that person and I feel like I can trust them, you know the things they say -  You can relate to them. So it’s the ‘like, know and trust factor’.  And that’s something that you can really get online rather than just having the lucky dip approach….. SO the other thing that I would look at is…  have they got a track record in the area? If your property is say prestige property, have they got a track record in prestige property? So I would really research them and make sure that they’ve got the experience and qualifications. Now, when you choose a real estate agent, the things that I think you need a real estate agent for, is for negotiation and for marketing. So I would test the real estate agent in lots of different ways. In negotiation, I would be asking lots of different questions. Like, if they came into my house and they told me a price - i.e what my house was worth… I would want them to really sell me that price. OK? Why is it worth that price? I want you to tell me all the factors that come into it., I want you to prove to me that it’s THAT price.  One, because I want them to be able to prove it to the buyers - that it’s worth that price. I also want to see how they negotiate in that sort of thing as well. So even if it comes down to when they’re talking about their fee, or how well can they negotiate their own fee. If they’re just going to give in, they will probably give in on your asking price if you chose them…… so….. I would also, even go out with them and have a look at property as far as buying a property with them. Just to get them to show you some properties, go to open houses, and ask question, things like, what do you think of this property - what do you think it will sell for? What do you think it’s worth? Have you had any offers on it? See if they’re actually working for the seller or they’re working for the buyer. Okay because what you want…. When you’re selling your property, you want the agent to be working for you as a seller. If you’re buying a property, go with the one’s that are like that – the one that’s going to give the sellers money away. But if you’re a seller, you really want go with somebody that’s a top negotiator. So there are two things, negotiation and then the other one is marketing. And the other thing too, is when they come to your house, if they give you an appraisal or you go out with them as a buyer. How’s their follow up? Do they ring you up and say ‘what did you think of that property?’, ‘Would you consider making an offer on the property?’. Or if they have appraised your property….. What sort of follow up have they done for you? Do they drop you off a written appraisal? Do they ring you? Do they ask you how you are going? Do they try to give you something else?  Do they offer more comparable sales or let you know something that comes on the market? That’s a really big thing as well, because so many times you list with an agent and they don’t keep in contact – they don’t follow up. And that’s something that is so important. You want to get the feedback and all that sort of thing. So, I think that’s really important. So do you want me to go on in the marketing, side of things now? (Laughing). Darren: The things you are saying are really valid and obviously I have the same things too. And I’m glad you’re saying that, because obviously that’s the thing, a lot of people don’t realise what an agent’s job is. And I think to be honest, a lot of agents don’t even realise what an agent should be doing. I totally agree. I think there are two roles, marketing the property and negotiating the sale of the property. Lisa: Yes. Darren: I think everything else is almost irrelevant, you can get someone for $25 an hour that can hand out some flyers, and conduct open inspections or drive around to get contracts signed, paperwork etc.. But if your agent has skills in those two things, negotiation and marketing…  That’s most important. That’s the most important thing, because at the end of the day it’s going to result in tens of thousands of dollars extra in the sale price of your house. So that’s what’s really valuable. The agent… and that’s why their commission can become almost irrelevant as well, because…. if they’ve got those skills, they can add so much value to your property and if they are charging an extra thousand or two thousand dollars more than the other agent  that doesn’t have those skills, but they can make you an extra 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand dollars that could be the big difference. Lisa: Exactly, because if the agent is not negotiating a better price for you, then you might as well do it yourself. If you are a better negotiator, you might as well do it yourself. That’s why check their fees,  if you can negotiate better than them,  don’t choose them.  Sell it yourself. Go with somebody who is a negotiator. Somebody that has studied it..  and someone that knows what to do. That is a massive tip. A massive tip. (Laughing). Darren: There are people that come to me from out of state (and they don’t want me to be their real estate agent), They’ll say how do I choose between real estate agents?  I say… Ask them two questions…  Ask them whether they are going to reduce their commission and will they be willing to reduce the cost of marketing Lisa: Yes. Darren: Either of those… Then they are not the agents you want. If they can’t negotiate on their own fee….then what are they going to be like when it’s your house and they don’t really care. This is their money they’re willing to give away. Likewise with marketing, you’ve got to be willing to market your home..  Marketing makes such a difference to the sale price for a house.  If an agent doesn’t believe it’s important, then…. Lisa: Yes. Darren: Then, they are just going to take shortcuts. Lisa: There’s a question you can ask real estate agents as well. Do they understand the difference between advertising and marketing? Because advertising is putting an ad in the paper and just putting a property online. There’s so much more involved in marketing yourself. To market your office…. like you do your podcast. Videos that you do. That’s marketing yourself and your office and things like that. So advertising is just one small part of it.   I have for my coaching clients what I call the marketing umbrella or different ways of making the phone ring. If you’ve only got one or two ways of making the phone ring and that’s by putting an ad in the paper or an ad on the real estate portals. It’s not really the highest, you know…. if one of those sources stopped, you’ve lost all of your enquiry. So it’s really getting that enquiry from lots of different places and that’s a question to ask a real estate agents as well…. Is how do they advertise/market your property and how do they market themselves? And see what they say. What’s their brand like? What’s their brand promise? And as I said, if they’re a prestige agent, does their website reflect that? Does their marketing reflect that? Does their presentation reflect that? Is their brand consistent? And just check little things like their advertising. How is the advertising of their property for sale… Is it concise? Are there any typos? Is it well written?   Is it entertaining or is it boring? You want to go with somebody that’s got a little bit of flare with writing or copywriting. Darren: Sorry for interrupting. How would you describe….... a lot of people out there using the word marketing when they are talking about advertising. A lot of people would be thinking they’re the same thing, you know. Putting an advertisement in the paper, putting on the internet. What’s the difference between marketing and advertising in your view? Lisa: Okay, Well as I said advertising is just one little part of it. Going now to marketing. Marketing is like marketing yourself, so you’ve got your podcast, you do your videos. It might just be giving out pens and things like that with your name on it, things to create top of mind awareness. It’s following up with different marketing materials and things like that. And another thing I was going to say too is,  when you’re talking to a real estate agent, say if you’re particular property would be open to say the Chinese market. Or something like that. What strategies has that real estate agent got that would attract the Chinese market?  There might be different marketing skills for that.   How can they market to the Chinese?   Can they contact different agents?  Will they offer different platforms to market to the Chinese? Will they go on different programs? Whichever way that may be. Is the property close to a University or Hospital or something like that?  Or is it located close to a school that maybe you can put some notices on the notice board at the University or somewhere close buy – let people know that a house is coming up for sale in that area, or something like that. Or if it’s a block of land,  also contact the developers direct and things like that. Don’t just advertise and put and add in the paper or online. How will they actually go out and market that property and sell that property?   Will they contact people that are on their database before, rather than just putting an ad in the paper. Go and actually ring those people that have called before about different properties. Darren: So, would you say then, sorry. We’ll just say maybe then marketing is more of the strategy of selling the property. Lisa: Yes. Marketing is the whole thing… Advertising is for example just promoting your properties specifically.  An ad in the paper or just your ad on RealEstate.com. It’s everything relating to a particular property.  Flyers for that particular property.   Specific advertising. So marketing, examples of marketing is marketing yourself through a podcast, video marketing for your office, your team. Promoting all different things in your office and that might be…. I have for real estate agents, I call it the marketing umbrella. And some of the things that I’ve got -  is different ways of making the phone rings. So you know, newspaper, database, and all that sort of thing. And you’ve got letterbox drops, you’ve got flyers that you send out to absentee owners, so people that own property in the area but live elsewhere get to know you….. So that’s kind of like, you know.. you do something that’s different to what others do.. not just putting an ad in the paper. We’ve got thank you cards, you send thank you cards to people, you do editorials. When you sell a property to somebody,  you can do a nice bottle of wine with your label on it or something like that. That sits on their cupboard or their bar for people to look at. And say your photo frames with the sold sign on it with the people standing out on front of the house -   there’s a cap or a cup with your name on it. People do fridge magnets, I’m not a fan of fridge magnets - I’ve listed lots of properties from people where other agents had fridge magnets (laughing).  So it’s just all sorts of different things to get your name out there. Things that are different to the other agents. And as I’ve said it’s offline and online marketing - so actually if your listeners are interested, my new book is out, it’s called “Secret Agents” and on my website it’s called www.TheRealEstateHotline.com.au and I’m actually giving away a free audio copy of the book at the moment. So that’s all about real estate marketing so it goes into the whole thing. It goes into offline marketing/ online marketing. How to get the phone to ring and all that sort of thing. It’s written for real estate agents but it can actually can be put into any business model. That’s something that your listeners can just opt in and get the book for free and that’s everything real estate marketing.   Darren: Thanks for that opportunity. And I’m sure some of you will get in touch…. Lisa: Yes Darren: So obviously this show is called Property Secrets.  So I want to be able to dig in a little bit deeper. So obviously we’ve been having a chat about trying to find the best real estate agent and we’ve talked a little bit about their negotiating skills, marketing and some of the questions we might ask. We’ve thought about what goes on from the outside. Is there a particular secret or something that you can think of from your perspective…. That you would know straight away that says.. that’s the better agent and the not so good agent and then we can maybe learn from it as well? Lisa: To me Darren, I really just think it’s that  ‘like, know and trust factor’. I really think to really be comfortable with the agent. You know…who you’re going to choose, because I’ve spoken to people before that have said ‘Look, I’d like to go with that agent, because you know I really like them and I trust them. But this agent seems a lot more gung ho.  and I don’t think he tells the truth all the time but I think he might get me a better deal’. Go with your gut feeling, really sort of feel who you feel comfortable with it’s a big decision in choosing a real estate agent and you’ve got to make the right decision. You’ve got to be comfortable with them. They’re dealing with a lot of money. It’s your biggest asset most of the time. And you’ve really got to trust that person. So I think really the trust and that’s something researching online - it’s something that is really going to help you get a good idea of who that person is. What their values are, whether they align with you and as I’ve said… you know whether they are really getting out there and promoting themselves, their office, their properties for sale . Really going the extra mile in being a buyer magnet, because that’s who you really want to go to. Somebody that the buyers are calling.  They say ‘I’ve got to go with Darren because he’s always out there, and he’s everywhere I go,  that’s where he is.’ And really that to me is the agent that you have got to go with.   Darren: It’s really, when you think about it, the agent has a lot of control over this whole process. It’s a little bit like black box, obviously, hopefully if you have a good agent they should be communicating with you but really you’re handing over your house to them and saying please do a good job and get me the most amount of money you can. And then you sort of sit back on the sidelines and just have to watch from the outside, So really, if you don’t trust and feel confident they going to do the right thing by you then, how are you going to know. Lisa: Exactly. It’s too scary, it’s too scary. Yes. Just make sure you like them, you trust them and that’s everything to me. Darren: The other thing. I find with real estate - buying real estate. selling real estate. People don’t necessarily realise that it’s real money. You know. They don’t realise that, you know, going that extra time to the buyer and gets maybe and extra $10,000. Or the fact that they market slightly better or negotiate better and that might be an extra . 10 or 20 or 30.  You know if they can make an extra $40,000.   How long would it take you to save $40,000?  Lisa: Yes. Darren: For a lot of people, that might be years and years and years -  It might be 10 years to save $40,000. So the fact you’ve, you know, someone that you can trust them enough to do the right thing to get the extra few cents. People drive across town to use their shopper dockets to save a few cents on fuel. Lisa: That’s right. Exactly.   Darren: This happens to me a lots… I get an offer and I go back to the owner and I say we’re not going to accept that - we’re going to go back’. They’re like ‘no, no’. And I’m like ‘No, we’re going back. ‘No, don’t go back’. And I’m like ‘but it’s real money’. Like if I can get you an extra thousand dollars…… that’s a thousand dollars. It’s better for you, my job is to get you the most amount of money and that’s the thing. That’s one thing I’m constantly telling people, it’s like ‘this is real money you’re talking here. It’s not make believe’. Lisa: People get so blasé - like you say spending extra dollars here or  there. And that’s again in the negotiation. Go with the agent that does that. Ask them.. How did your last negotiations go, or speak to some of their previous sellers. That’s part of marketing as well. To have video testimonials. The more video testimonials you can get on your website that people can watch ….and you can show people and say… say they are living in Smith Street. Well here’s actually a seller that I sold for in Smith Street and this is their video testimonial and this is what happened with them. That’s just gold. Darren: And the other thing too... is people obviously… well you might have been aware that there a negative perception about real estate agents from some people and so the thing is. Lisa: Noooooo. Darren: It doesn’t have to be confrontational. You don’t have to be, you were mentioning you found someone that you trust but you think this other guy is a dodgey….  you think he might be able to get you a higher price.. In reality you don’t have to be dodgy you don’t have to scam people, you don’t have to try and rip people off to get the highest price. Lisa: Yes. Darren: Just say hey ‘The more you offer the more chance you’ve got of getting it’. You know I’ve got other offers and you’ll be honest and upfront with them. And people sort of feel like it has to be this, you know competing against each other and win-lose scenario. But I don’t feel like it has to be like that. Lisa: No. I think you know, we’ve got to be proud to be real estate agents.  We’ve really got to be proud of our profession and what we do and it’s like anything – there’s bad fish in every pond (laughing). Darren: (Laughing). Lisa: You can just do your best and represent you and represent your company. And that’s all that you can do. Yes. You just do your best.  Darren: Fantastic. That’s great advice. And it’s good that we sort of break it down to really with just dealing with people at the end of the day. That’s what real estate is. Selling a property. Buying a property. It’s all about dealing with people. So if you find someone you can engage with and you can trust,  that’s probably the most important thing I think. Definitely good advice.  People who may want to get in touch with you… to find out a little bit more about some of your trainings or maybe they are still struggling trying to work out which agent to go with. What’s the best way that people can get in touch with you. Lisa: Sure. My website is www.TheRealEstateHotline.com.au and that’s pretty easy. And that ‘s got all of my contact details. And as I said my free audio book.., I think, that would be really helpful for a lot of people as well, just to see how you can market properties in different ways and that sort of things.  Darren: And we’ll be able to find that on the website or Google your name and find it somewhere. Lisa: Yes. My website.. and yes… I’m everywhere online.  http:www.TheRealEstateHotline.com.au Darren: Alright. Thank you for that. Lisa: (Laughing). Darren: Thanks for sharing today. I’m sure our listeners have learned a lot obviously. I found it really interesting as well. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us. Lisa: Thanks Darren.

Carl: Hello everyone, Carl Quested here, thanks for tuning in for another episode of The Real Agent Podcast. This week’s episode I’m joined by Lisa B., Lisa has been around the real estate industry for let’s just say many years - and has a lot of experience -  from being an agent through to a principal, and now she’s a coach and mentor. Her current business is The Real Estate Hotline where she provides ad hoc and I guess emergency advice and assistance for Agents, Principals and everyone involved in the real estate industry. A really great episode here. I love Lisa’s approach to business and life so I hope you get as much out this episode as I have. As always please leave us some feedback. And enjoy the episode. Carl: Lisa thanks for joining us. Lisa: Yay! Hi! Thanks Carl, thanks for having me. Carl: That’s okay. Now we were chatting a bit before the start. So we’ve got to try and pick up on some of the gold we talked about, because there was some fantastic, fantastic information shared in there. Lisa: Sure. Carl: So Lisa tell me when did your real estate journey begin? Lisa: Oh God. Well I’m 49 now Carl, so it’s a long long time ago, when I was in my early 20’s. So when I started, I did the licensing course full time for one year – that was before I went into real estate.  That was when I said,  I’m burning all my bridges, I’m going into real estate and I have to make it work.  This is going to happen!   I door knocked lots of real estate offices to try to get a job and I ended up working for an office where I said look “Just pay me part time and I’ll work full time” just so I could prove myself. And I ended up doing that.  On the first day in the office I sold a house and it started from there.. Then I went full time. That’s how I started in a real estate office, and then after about 18 months the guy who owned the business, his wife passed away suddenly, she had a brain aneurism.  Very sad.. Carl: Oh wow. Lisa: And because she passed away,  he came in and asked me did I want to buy the office. And I’d only been in real estate 18 months.  I didn’t really know what I was doing as far as owning an office - I was only in my early 20’s,  -  23 or 24, and I was like….  ‘Yeah sure, why not, Yeah, what could go wrong?’. And I bought the business and that’s where I started my journey. I just love it. Once I think real estate is in your blood it’s very hard to do anything else. It is just something, that I’m so passionate about, I absolutely love it. Carl: And so at the age of 23, 24, taking over a real estate business, I mean, it’s very different I think today because obviously taking over a real estate business can literally just be taking over database right? You can literally pick up a computer and you can run it from home. I know there are different models and stuff like that. But back then, you had to have an office, right? You had to have a retail presence, you had to have windows displays and everything like that, so it must have been a pretty big undertaking. Lisa: Oh it was. And yes the things that can go wrong, went wrong. We had a property manager who was taking money. I’d had all the books checked. I’d gone through everything with the solicitor. And one day the property manager had a day off and then she had the next day off… and then it was just all these phone calls about money going missing and all that sort of thing. And I just didn’t know what to do. And I called a real estate agent that was close by,  I rang him and said  ‘ What do I do?’ Oh God, he helped me out so much. Gerard Payne. Oh my God he helped me out so much. And I was like ‘What the hell have I done?’.  But it was scary back then. You had the physical office that you had to pay rent, had to do all these things. The over heads were so big, newspaper advertising and it was hard - but it was easy. Carl: Yes. Lisa: Back then everybody did the same thing, It was like you had newspaper advertising, your for sale signs, letter box drops, door knocks - that was really it.   That was the focus of your business.  So it was hard work getting out there,  but it was easy because everybody was doing the same thing and there were no distractions. Where as now, I kind of feel sorry for the agents that are starting out, because there are so many shiny objects to chase. Social media, and this and that, and this and that. Door knocking. What the hell do I do first? It is a lot more complicated and I think a lot of the agents have to get back to the basics. To start with the basics, of door knocking, building your database, getting your brand known and all those sort of things. Just start with that and don’t chase every shiny object that comes along. Carl: I think, Yeah. It is very interesting, isn’t it? Because whilst the game has changed, the rules have essentially stayed the same right? Because people buy from people. So the ways in which you make those connections might be more intricate, because now you’ve got social media, you’ve got video marketing,  but if you can get in front of people, like door knocking….. if you can get in touch with people over the phone……. Lisa: Yes. Carl: You are making that connection  ---  so as long as that connection is being made. Lisa: Yes. Carl: Use the ones that you’re most familiar with, use the ones that work for you that kind of get traction straight away. Lisa: Yes. That’s right, we now live in a world where people can like, know and trust you even before they meet you - which is crazy.  People can look at you online and look at your website or follow you on Facebook and go ‘hey you know what -  they follow South Sydney, you know the best football team’ that sort of thing. They can like you for who you follow or they like you because they relate to you in some way, and it can make life a lot easier because of that as well, but I think if you’re new in real estate and you don’t have a database, you haven’t got warm calls to make  - you’ve got to start with the cold calls. Carl: Yes definitely. And I think you’re absolutely right. We still see so many agents getting their profile picture with their arms folded across their chest and yet their profile talks about honesty, integrity and trust.  They’re all the same things that every other agent is talking about.  When what someone is looking for is exactly what you say, you know, what footy teams they follow? What charitable organisations do they support? What are they about as a person, because you know in today’s society that’s what we’re looking for, we’re looking for that sort of, I guess a matching personality that says…… Lisa: The commonality.   Carl:  Yes. This is someone that I gel with, yes, they’re good at their job but I also like them as a person. And that is very different to how I think, maybe things in the past have been. Lisa: I know your personality Carl! You know what I mean?  It’s like, you get to know someone’s personality from being on Facebook, you get to know their sense of humour and all that sort of thing. And you think..  I really like this person and that’s what’s happening out there now.   Which I didn’t have that when I started in real estate, so in lots of ways.... it’s become easier as long as you focus on the right things.   Building your profile, your online profile, your brand and doing some video marketing and building up your online resume…  and that’s what I think a lot of people think… they think they don’t need to focus that much time on it..   It’s like if you don’t get on page one of Google, well you know who is? Realestate.com.au, domain.com.au, openagent.com.au, whichagent.com.au All of those are on page one, and if you’re not, they are intercepting your client, I call them the interceptors now. They’re intercepting your clients before they get to you.  Because a person goes to sell a house or buy a house, and they will type in houses for sale in a suburb and guess who comes up? All those interceptors, they’re taking away real estate agents potential clients -   so agents need to be on page one of Google.  You need to work on your online profile so that they’re not intercepting your clients. Carl: Yeah totally. I think, you know those websites that you mentioned, I mean real estate agents  are the middlemen in the process of selling property, where now what’s happening is REA and those other groups  are becoming middle men in the process of an agent meeting a client. Lisa: Yes. Carl: You know. It’s adding more friction to a process that should have less friction in it. It’s interesting to see how the web space is changing I think and moulding. It’s good to see more and more agents becoming aware of how to use the tools but I think there’s still quite a long way to go. Lisa: Yes, there’s still a long way to go. I mean I started with video marketing back in, Oh God, 7 or 8 years ago, it was new back then.   It was… nobody did it. So it’s like it’s starting to become a lot more of the norm but…... it’s something…... video marketing changes your life, like it really does.   When you do it correctly, it’s something that people can really feel that commonality with you straight away. You don’t even have to be in front of the camera, and it might just be video testimonials as well. So there are so many, so many tools there, that people can use, that can really just help them so much, in so many ways.  Whether it’s to get them on to page one of Google or building their brand and building their profile and getting that ‘like, know and trust’ factor from people. Carl: So in terms of your business right now, so you’ve evolved from being the agent, being principal and now you are sort of a more coaching and mentoring capacity. Lisa: Yes. Carl: So talk to us about Real Estate Hotline and what that does for agents? Lisa: Yes, sure. I mean I’ve owned lots of different offices. I’ve owned an independent under my own name, I’ve owned franchises and I’ve owned my own brand name.   Over my long time in real estate. I’ve done lots of different things.   So I’ve got a lots of different perspectives. I was a Jenman Approved Office, don’t hold that against me. Lol  So I’ve done a lot of things.   When  I get into something like real estate,  I want to know all facets of it. I’ve done auctions, I’ve done open houses, I’ve done vendor paid advertising, I’ve done the exact opposite of all of that.   I’ve done all sort of different things, so I can get perspectives. And so that’s what I can offer people with The Real Estate Hotline,.... years and years of perspective. Different things that  people ring up about on the hotline….. And some people prefer to email, Facebook messenger or they call…. Whatever they like..  so it’s not just strictly calls.   You know some of my clients are principals that just feel alone.  They just need somebody to talk to, their spouse says not to talk about work when they’re at home,.  They can’t talk about things to staff members - ( some of that is about confidentiality within their office, and some because they don’t want to feel they don’t know what they are talking about as well.) Carl: Of course. Lisa: It’s kind of a lifeline for real estate, a helpline, whatever. A hotline that you can talk about anything, so people will talk about staff problems, talk about the competition with different things that the competition are doing. Or whether it’s just getting a sale or listing together (I don’t mean ‘JUST’ getting a listing or sale together  - that’s everything in a real estate business) but whether it’s holding hands through a situation.   Some I have had say..  ‘I can’t do this anymore, I just can’t do real estate anymore!’ It’s like wait, stop. Take a breath kind of thing. I cheer them on when they get results. Cheer them on from the sidelines.  We might look at ads and copy, newsletters. Or it might be just grammar checks or things like that. With my clients I follow them on social media and it might just be that I see they spelt something wrong. So I would quickly message them and say.. change this or change that, just to make sure their brands are protected as well. It might be about planning meetings, It might be just how to be happy in real estate, about the balance. I’ve done a lot of Tony Robbins in my life as well since 1994. I’ve done everyone of his programs, I don’t know how many times, a gazillion times. And I have really live by his philosophies. And I’m an Accredited Life Coach, and an Accredited NLP Master Practitioner, so I’ve been doing coaching a long time - since 2003. And it’s all the same stuff that I use on myself.   At date with destiny, with Tony Robbins, he gets you do something which is called your primary question. So it’s a question that you ask yourself everyday and before you make decisions. You ask this primary question, and sometimes they are really destructive questions. It might be ‘Is that my fault?’  or things like that  - so it’s all things that I go through with my coaching clients as well.  To sort of know how your mind works, and why you’re thinking the way you’re thinking. So in my diary, I‘ve got my primary question that I want to ask myself at the front of my diary. I’ve got my values and my rules. So what’s important to me?   What’s my values, to make sure that I don’t drift off. That I’m congruent with who I am and what I want to do. And my identity because sometimes your identity can become a bit jaded with certain things in life.   If I’m a top salesperson and then I have a few bad months, then I don’t feel like I’m the top sales person anymore. So all these different tools and techniques - I absolutely live by and if ever I start to feel off -  I know exactly where I need to go. It’s like being a mechanic and knowing exactly which screw to turn, or whatever…  you know what I mean? That’s what the hotline does as well, people are going through different things and I can kind of tune in and see, see what’s really going on. As well as just as a practical real estate advice. So I just love it Carl, It’s something that... everyday it’s so different. It’s different but the same as I said to you - people will say things like ‘Oh this and this and this just happened’ and in my head I think..   ‘Yeah that happened to me 25 years ago’. Carl: (laughing). Lisa: There’s nothing really knew that I see, it’s all the same but it’s new to them. It’s just understanding where people are coming from. And I guess because of my long career in real estate, I can really understand how people feel too. Like discount agents, things like that…. you know, they’ve been around since the day dot.. It is just about getting better. It’s making sure that you’re prepared, it’s just doing all the right things. Yeah, everything that you can to win that listing. Carl: I think it’s such a valuable service because people underestimate I think, how lonely a real estate role can be, because….. there’s the Facebook persona I like to call it, where you know, you can only really post, I mean….. it’s the same with the kids,  anyone who’s got kids, very rarely do you post a picture of your kid screaming.    Lisa: (laughing). Carl: Right? You post the one where they’re all smiling and happy. You know, sitting down looking angelic. Lisa: True. Carl: But the reality is very different to that. And I think real estate is pretty much the same. I saw a guy a few weeks back, he posted in one of the real estate groups that he was having a rough time, wasn’t sure if he wanted to continue his career in real estate. Lisa: Yes. Carl: And he got flogged for it. You know, for sort of for being open and trying to share that. Lisa: (hmmm) Carl: Yeah, and you know it was a case of everyone sort of came back, and sort of you know said you’ve got to do this, you’ve got to fix that. And you know, you’re not trying hard enough and all this kind of stuff. Lisa: Wow. If that’s same guy, I actually gave him my online course. I’ve got an online course that real estate agents buy, it’s a 10 week online course. If that’s the same guy I ended up giving him my course. I private messaged him and gave him the course. I just felt sorry for him. I understood exactly the way he felt and you’re right, people don’t understand!  People go.., ‘oh you do this, do that, do this’. Yes, it’s sad when you are trying to reach out and you’re getting slammed for it. Carl: Yeah and it’s exactly that, that you know the isolating feeling of, if you’re not posting a new listing everyday and you’re not posting pictures of form 6’s, you’re not posting happy update videos all the time like other real estate agents. You start to sort of feel more and more isolated because you’re going, I’ve only got 2 new listing this month or I’ve got that property that’s been hanging around for ages, and everyone else seems to be selling them in 4 days. Lisa: Yes. Carl: You know. I think the need for an outlet, sort of an impartial person is so important - because like you say, you can’t talk to your staff necessarily and say, you know. ‘I’m feeling really low right now’, and you don’t want to take that home and burden your partner with it. You want to be able to chat with somebody independently and I guess that’s exactly what a coach or mentor is there to do -  to listen and provide constructive direction to help you to course correct. Lisa: Exactly. And it’s not everybody wants to be top producer. Some people just want to make a living. Some people really just want that balance, they just want to be able to sell 3 or 4 homes a month and have time off with their kids.. and that’s really important to them. So it’s working through to get that balance, it might be you know, Tony Robbins has got a life wheel - the life wheel -  it helps you to work out where you are spending most of your time and just improving a little bit, improving on 1 or 2 areas.. Only improving 5% everyday on certain things that you need to do - but it is lonely being a business owner - it is lonely and you can’t say to your friends or to your staff ‘oh God, I made no money this month’ or whatever. Whereas with me they can say ‘I really, need to make some money and I need to do this, I need to get some listings and some sales. Okay let’s focus, what are we going to do first, where are you now exactly’. So it is, it’s a lonely thing being a business owner, it’s a lonely time. And being in sales,  I know when I started in real estate I used to ring a guy Win Abel his name was,  he worked at Bevans in Wollongong and I’d ring him and say I’ve got a buyer on a house,  what do I now? (this was when I first started)  He’d say… ‘Oh okay, well get them to make an offer or do this.. Or do that.  I had no clue. Carl: Yes. Lisa: When I first started, my first week in real estate, I thought what do I do?  Because.... you don’t want to feel silly either asking your principal or asking someone else, .. or if you are a thousand dollars apart or something on a deal. What else can you do to get this sale together?  If you feel that you’ve tried everything…. well maybe you haven’t tried everything.   Maybe there’s a few other things that we can do. So yes, I just like being there for people. It’s what I love to do. Help people and as I’ve said  -  I’ve got a lot of different perspectives and I’ve written books etc. So if people want to write a book or people want to set up podcast, we do that or anything that help build a profile.  We might look at their online profile. Most times people say..  ‘I just don’t know what to do now’. So okay I do a report on their online profile. And say okay well…. this is what you’ve got to do and you’ve got to include this and take that photo away and just help them with their branding as well. Because a lot of agents are great salespeople, they’re great belly to belly - but as far as working on their business, they are not good.   They don’t want to do it either.. it’s like ‘oh I don’t want to do it, I just want somebody else to do that’. So it’s just helping them to be able to work not only in their business, as well as on their business. Carl: Yes, absolutely. I think it’s very hard as well because I think a lot of agents probably look at the coaching industry and I sort of use that term loosely.. The coach, the wider coaching industry  and you know they’ve got people wanting to charge you know $5,000 a month, $10,000 a month for their you know, for their coaching, one on one coaching and things like that and I think it sort of naturally turns them off. I don’t know if you’re happy to talk about the pricing you charge on the podcast but…. Lisa: Yes sure.   My coaching is just $99/week, $400/month and that’s access whenever they need it. A lot of it is just a 5 minute phone call or a 5 minute email or something like that. For $100 a week, you’re getting my experience, my knowledge and accountability too.   Some people use the hotline for accountability.  So it’s sending in your results once a month to go,  this is what I’m committed to doing and this is what I’ve actually done. Carl: Yes. Lisa: It’s like when you’re sending it to somebody, it’s like ‘Oh God! I’ve got to do this’. You know what I mean? Carl: Yes. Lisa: A girlfriend and I are going to lose 4 kilos in the next month or so right? So we’re sending photos of our scales every morning. Just accountability. Carl: Yes. Lisa: To send it to somebody else, I’m thinking. Grrrrr it’s the same as it was yesterday. I better do something. And that’s the same with the accountability of the sales person to say…. if they have only door knocked 5 houses and made no phone calls, they’ve done no flyers, they’ve done absolutely nothing for the week…. then it’s not surprising that they’ve got no listings and no sales. And so you’ve got to do the actions - so it’s really looking at the accountability of the actions first and to be able to get a numbers…. so the accountability is a big thing as well. Carl: And so Lisa in terms of who you work best with. Like, do you sort of find, is there a sort of a type of agent that you are able to assist the best in terms of where they are in their career or income wise or anything like that. Lisa: No. Just people that are open to it. Some people are just so much in their own world, they’re not open to coaching so people that just want to learn. Carl: Yes. Lisa: I mean I’ve got people who have just started out in sales. I’ve got people that are principals. I’ve got people that are making really good incomes and selling a lot. And I’ve people that are just wanting to get their results up - so it’s so different, but it’s got to be people whereby we gel together well too. There’s some people that obviously wouldn’t suit me. And I wouldn’t suit them. As long as people are open to learning and open to discussion - because I’m not here to say ‘Oh I think you should do this, I think you should do that, or you’ve got to do this’. It’s talking through what they are comfortable with.    Some people are not comfortable phone prospecting, and some people hate it. So then, let’s find a way to get somebody else do it  -  like your services Carl or whatever. Or it might be they’ve got to build a database a different way. It’s working out what those people, what their strengths are – what they like to do - if they don’t like it they’re not going to do it. Carl: I think that’s really key isn’t it..  there is certainly a lot of practitioners and coaches and mentors out there. Which, they really sort of do push one specific angle and say this is how you have to do it. And I think the problem with that is, it’s kind of like trying to make everyone the same. Like you say, work in different ways. We have clients that hate doing telemarketing like you said so they use us to do it.   We have others that say ‘You know what? Telemarketing – I’m not doing it full stop’.  And they find other ways to generate business, we have people that you know that are purely online. They don’t do any print media. They don’t do any of that kind of stuff. Just purely online so it’s refreshing I think that you don’t come in and say this is the way that you have to do it. You’re more to sort of guide them on their chosen path. Lisa: Yes, I mean. People, if they don’t believe in it,  then they’re not going do it. I always like to say.. you know how some people say that trainers and coaches just train and coach because they can’t do. And it’s like, I’ve done so much in my career and I’m still doing it. So I kind of like it when people ask me or say that statement to me..  because from having so many different perspectives and all that sort of thing… I remember the first time I went out door knocking – I was so scared, I was so scared. And I was like, you know what -  I’m just going to do one, if I’m still alive - I can say that I’ve done it, so I did one. Then the next day I did two, then the next day I did three. And I got to actually like it. It’s just really kind of getting people to just…. sometimes they have to get out of their comfort zone and have to do things that they hate to do-  things that they don’t like to do, but it’s kind of working with the people on what they are prepared to do. Carl: Goes back to what you said, what was it you said, the principle question? Lisa: The primary question. Carl: The primary question. Lisa: Yes. Yes. Okay. Carl: Understanding, that yes, you’ve got to do this. It’s not very comfortable but if it aligns with your primary question, or what your ultimate why is, then obviously it’s going to help you get the result you need to achieve. Lisa: That’s right. It’s your purpose, your outcomes and all those sort of things. Why you’re doing this. I just love real estate Carl. It’s just such an amazing profession. And it’s something that the sky’s the limit on income. The flexibility, the things that you learn. Growth. It is quite addictive. It’s kind of you can fill all of your needs and I guess I just like to help people through those tough times as well. Whether it’s just holding their hand or cheering them on. That’s my role now and I just love it. Carl: So let’s dig a bit deeper if we can, let’s say we’ve got somebody listening to the podcast right now - who is like that person I mentioned on Facebook -  they are feeling isolated and a bit broken and considering throwing in the towel. What would be some of the initial steps -  that you’ll get them to review - either about themselves or their career?  That you know, do from this podcast and actually maybe take stock, what would be the first step you’d get them to evaluate? Lisa: Well they’ve got to look at whether they like where they are working. That can be a big thing as well, people that are working in offices that hate the environment.   Say... they don’t like their principal. So……  Are they happy where they are?  That’s a big thing and I think when you’re looking at joining a real estate office it’s got to be a fit. There’s got to be a team fit with the principal in the office and I guess the way they do things as well. If you don’t believe in a certain way of operating you know, make sure your environments right first. I think that’s a huge thing. Getting your own mind right, something that I always suggest is certain rituals in the morning. So it might be get up at the certain time and you go on the treadmill, or you go for a run or you go for a walk, you listen to good things. You listen to Tony Robbins or you listen to any of the sales trainers or Wayne Dyer or somebody like that - whatever your thing is to listen to, have the good stuff going in. There’s too many horrible things in the news and we hear all these horrible things, get your mind right early in the morning. Write out your goals. I had my goals on my phone for a while and it’s just not the same as writing them down - goals - typing it in rather than writing it in your journal you just don’t get the same feeling. When you write them down, there’s just something about it, it just makes different pathways with your brain and your hand doing it. That you actually feel it and you get excited and I don’t feel you get excited writing it down to an app. I have an app which I still use sometimes it’s called “wonderlist”. I still make lists on there, but it’s not the same emotion that I get from actually writing down my goals and when I started in Real Estate I used to write down every day -  I make so much money in Real Estate. I bring in $30000/month from real estate  That was just after I started in Real Estate, (1994 – when our average selling fee was $5000).   It was something that I would write out 50 times every single day -  just to get that embedded in my brain. That you start to believe it - you can do it. Because you’ve got to have the belief in yourself. If you don’t believe that your going do it, if you’ve got money blocks or you’ve got something like that - you need to work on it. And that’s something writing things out or affirmations and listening to good things, you know…. Listening to Tony Robbins or whoever as I’ve said you choose…., that’s a big thing. And I think the next thing is to have a farm area that you’re going to make your home. Think everybody’s going to know me in this area. Get one listing and then everyone around you knows you from that one listing. You’ll do ‘just listed’ everywhere, doorknocking, and open house everywhere and then a ‘just sold’ everywhere. And then you list another one and then up the road, and it’s like all around there. So you’re just all over your farm area - that people can’t help but know you. And have that goal that I’m going to take over this area. This is my patch, and nobody’s getting in here. And get upset when another agent lists one in there. Get angry because that should have been yours. Carl: Yes. Lisa: And I mean, it’s okay to get angry with yourself. Just don’t do it all the time. Learn from it. That’s the thing I think, really just make sure where you’re working, that you’re happy. Get your mind right in the morning. And make sure that you know your outcomes and your goals and that sort of thing. And then get out there, have your area and do it. Carl: And I think a few fall for that trap – the old trap of thinking that you’ve got a bad farm area. So you see a lot of agents do this.  They work an area for the best part of three weeks and go, it’s just a terrible farm area and try move on to next one and the next one. They don’t build up any consistency. A big part of being a real estate agent is showing your consistency. Again, there’s so many different ways of getting listings. But you look at someone like Chris Gilmore who letterbox drops 50 weeks every year,  to every homeowner - whether they want to see his flyers or not, that’s consistency, you know. Lisa: Yes. Carl: You know what to expect from Chris.  50 weeks every year, you’re going to get a flyer in your letterbox, you start to appreciate that consistency and if Chris was one that was  like ‘I don’t like this suburb anymore, I’m going to try a different suburb’, and kept on moving around. People wouldn’t list with him because he wouldn’t have the consistency. Lisa: No. They’ve got to know you. They’ve got to hear from you and it’s a like a letterbox drop,  a phone call, and a door knock and a whatever. And also I’ve got to say with the farm area,  make sure that there are enough sales in there that turn over, that it’s not like a small patch that you pick and there’s one house a year. (Laughing). Carl: Yes. Lisa: So, it’s got to be enough properties with enough sales. And you know, people say it’s different in my area and really it’s not. Some areas are different in rural or something like that. Where it’s a bit harder to door knock because it’s an acre in between properties or something. You know, that is different. But your normal residential areas are pretty much the same.  These people are living in those houses are either landlords or they are potential sellers. And I think too, one thing that I always focused on, with everything that was going on, with other offices making listings and sales outside of my office. It was like I only have to win the person that I’m with now. I’ve got a listing presentation today - that’s all I need to focus on. So I need to win that person. I would make a listing appointment for tomorrow  - I only need to win that person. You get one a day or you get one every couple of days, you’re laughing and try for one result a day, Whether it’s a listing, a sale or a house that’s too dear that needs a price adjustment.  Get the price adjustment .  Be honest with the sellers, that if they need to….they’ve got to be told, don’t step around the hard conversation. Carl: Yes. Lisa: You know, aim for result a day. It’s loving the one that you’re with and conquering the one that you’re with.  Conquering the one you’re with as in win them over. Carl: Not sort of focusing on the next, 3-6 months or whatever, you know. Give that person. I mean, we always talk about presence, about being present for that meeting, it’s about being switched on, and listening to that person and understanding what their goals are for the property. Not focusing on what you know is going to be happening pre the listing meeting, because I think a lot of people, start to spend it before they have made it. Lisa: Yes. Carl: A lot of them start thinking they have won the business before they have even signed it up.  They’re already thinking about what they’re going to do with income before they have won the listing. Lisa: Yes. For sure, actually there’s a lady Lois Buckett, she owns a real estate office at Lennox Head. And I did an interview with her the other day. And she said that vendors can smell commission breath a mile away. Carl:  (Laughing). Lisa: Right? And I thought what a great line. I haven’t heard that before. But, you know, if you’re going to listing presentations and you’re not winning them. Check in on your energy because if you’re coming across as desperate, you’re not going to get the listing. You’ve got to actually be the opposite. If you go in there desperate, you want that sale, you want that listing. They’re going to smell it a mile away.  They smell desperation a mile away. You’ve got to act the opposite. That you’re there. You’re present. You want their business BUT… You don’t need it, BUT..  you want it, you know what I mean. And that’s the difference between a lot of people I think really, winning the listing or repelling. Carl: Energy is very important. I think you know, I can’t recall if it’s Tony Robbins or Tim Ferriss that said, ‘If you can’t spare 15 minutes for meditation, then really you need at least 3 hours’. Lisa: Yes. Exactly. Carl: I think it’s so true, that salespeople will go into those listing presentation, they’re frazzled. They’re rushed. Maybe they’re running late, they’re thinking what they are going to do next. And you’re absolutely right - the person can sense that, they are not their priority number one in that time frame. Lisa: No, or the boss is saying, you better list three by the end of the month or you haven’t got your job anymore. That’s the other thing. Carl: Yes. And the pressure is too much. Lisa:  Yes. The pressure of results and that’s when you’ve got to come back and go, I just need to not have that commission breath, that desperation – and it’s really going in with helping the person. You’re there to help them sell and these are the things that you can do....    To get them sold for the best price with the least amount of time.  Which is what the sellers ultimately want. Carl: Well, Lisa I really appreciate your time in coming on the show. I think, what you’re offering as I said offline,  is a fantastic service and I think at the price point where if a lot of people are too scared to employ a coach or get someone on their side. Every person so far that I’ve interviewed, that has been successful also said the same thing.   To get a coach, have a mentor. To have somebody, to have a sounding board. The fact that they can have somebody with your depth of experience for you know. much much less than it would be for a ‘normal’ coach. I think it is a fantastic service to offer. Lisa: Yes, exactly. I wish I would have had it when I started in real estate. I really do. Just everything, from sales, the procedure to everything. So yes. Carl: Where can we find out more, do you do a discovery call that people who want to sign up can have.. or what’s the process? Lisa: No, not normally.. They just go to my website.   www.TheRealEstateHotline.com.au and then when they join up – (But… I’m happy to do a call if anybody wants to ring me up anytime if they’re considering joining - that’s fine). But if they know they want to join, then they just join.   There’s a form that they fill in, it’s like a discovery form for me – and it tells me everything, where they are now -  where they want to get to -  all that sort of thing  - then we just go from there -  after I receive their form back, then I ring them and see exactly where they are, where we go from now kind of thing. So yes, if anybody wants to ring me, they can ring me anytime. Carl: Perfect. Now you’re very active on Facebook. ‘Let’s talk about Real Estate’ has been growing, and has a great active user base as well. I spend a lot of time in there myself. And so, If you’re not part of that https://www.facebook.com/groups/Letstalkaboutrealestate/  or just look it up on your phone. I will include links to Lisa’s website and to the facebook group as well. So Lisa thanks once again for coming on, I really appreciate it. Lisa: Thanks, Carl. I appreciate it too. Carl can be contact here https://agentmail.com.au/contact-us/