Podcast appearances and mentions of tony arsenal

In this insightful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin their series on Jesus's parables by examining the Parable of the Sower (or Soils). This foundational teaching from Christ reveals why some hearts receive the gospel message while others reject it. The hosts unpack the four soil types Jesus describes, exploring what each represents spiritually and how these patterns continue to manifest today. They emphasize that while the parable reveals different responses to the gospel, it also provides comfort for believers engaged in evangelism, reminding us that outcomes ultimately depend not on the sower's skill but on the condition of the soil—a condition that only God can prepare. This episode offers both theological depth and practical encouragement for Christians seeking to understand the various responses to the gospel message in their own ministry contexts. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Sower serves as a hermeneutical key for understanding all of Jesus's parables, as it directly addresses why Jesus taught in parables and provides the interpretive framework for understanding their purpose. The parable reveals four types of responses to the gospel (represented by the four soils), but only one that leads to genuine salvation and fruit-bearing. The focus of the parable is not on the sower's skill or the seed's quality but on the condition of the soil—emphasizing God's sovereignty in salvation while encouraging continued evangelism. The "rocky ground" hearers represent those who initially receive the gospel with joy but have no root system to sustain them when trials come, often resulting in what we might call "deconstruction" today. Christians should expect varied responses to gospel proclamation and not be discouraged when the seed appears to be wasted on unresponsive hearts, as this pattern was predicted by Jesus himself. The parable provides a warning against shallow faith while encouraging believers to develop deep spiritual roots that can withstand persecution and trials. Genuine conversion is ultimately evidenced by fruit-bearing, not merely by initial enthusiasm or religious affiliation. Understanding the Soils The Parable of the Sower presents four distinct soil types, each representing different responses to the gospel message. The first soil—the path—represents hearts where the gospel makes no impact whatsoever; the seed simply bounces off and is quickly snatched away by Satan. This illustrates not merely outward rejection of the gospel, but also intellectual non-comprehension. As Tony explains, this doesn't necessarily mean active hostility toward the gospel but could simply be indifference: "It may not be someone who has like a closed fist, 'I hate the gospel, I hate everything about God,' but for some reason they're just not [interested]." This parallels Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him." The rocky soil represents those who initially receive the gospel with enthusiasm but lack depth. Their faith appears genuine at first but quickly withers under pressure or persecution. This phenomenon is particularly evident in what we often call "deconstruction" today—where someone who appeared genuinely converted falls away when their faith is tested. As Jesse notes, "I think what I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind...what's the length of time here? Is it possible that somebody could be in this place...which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end?" The parable reminds us that immediate joy at receiving the gospel is not necessarily evidence of saving faith, and it calls us to examine whether our own faith has sufficient depth to withstand trials. The Comfort of Realistic Expectations One of the most encouraging aspects of this parable is how it calibrates our expectations about evangelism and gospel ministry. Jesus teaches that when the gospel is proclaimed, we should expect varied responses—including outright rejection—not because of any failure in the message or messenger, but because of the condition of human hearts. This provides tremendous comfort for believers engaged in evangelistic efforts who might otherwise be discouraged by apparent failure. Tony highlights this point: "This parable is not about the skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed...The point of the parable...is that it has to do with the soil itself." This understanding frees us from the pressure of thinking we must somehow perfect our evangelistic technique or presentation, while also removing the false guilt that can come when people reject the message we share. Furthermore, the parable encourages continued, generous sowing of the gospel seed. As Tony observes, "We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this seed everywhere that he can." This reminds us that our responsibility is faithful proclamation, while the results remain in God's sovereign hands. Memorable Quotes "The Parable of the Sower teaches really that the gospel call goes out to all... but only those who God regenerates, that good soil, are gonna receive it savingly and will bear fruit." - Jesse Schwamb "Just because our experience of Christianity and our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that it felt real and genuine and rooted for [those who later fell away]... There's a caution there for us." - Tony Arsenal "The exhortation built into this is that we need to seek that root. We don't get to determine what kind of soil we are on an ultimate level—that's God's election and his secret providence. But on a horizontal level, in our experience of things, we have agency, we make decisions. We seek to be rooted or unrooted in the gospel." - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:36] Introduction and Greetings Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 462 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I am Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast of Good Soil. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Well, will you look at us? Look at us. It's finally and officially begun. And that is this conversation. [00:01:00] Kickoff to the Parable Series Jesse Schwamb: This episode is really the kickoff, well, the first parable that we're going through together, starting a long conversation that I think is gonna bear much fruit, if you will. Yes. Maybe 30, maybe 60, maybe a hundred times. Lord willing. It's gonna be great. And we're starting off with a doozy. Yes. Actually, maybe this is like the granddaddy of all the parables because we're gonna hear Jesus tell us something about the word of God and how it's received among different hearers. And this is so fantastic. It's the only place to begin because this is truly some eternally contemporary words. Yeah, it's, this is the parable that's continually verified under our own eyes. Wherever the word of God is preached or expounded and people are assembled to hear it, the sayings of our Lord in this parable are found to be true. It describes what goes on as a general rule in our congregations in the world. Anytime the word of God goes out, what a place to begin. So we're gonna get there. It's gonna be great, don't you worry, dear listener. [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: But of course, before we do that, it's our tradition, our word that's spoken is always something in affirmation with something or in denial against something. So I say to you, as I always do, Tony. What do you have for us on this episode? Uh, an affirmation or denial. Tony Arsenal: This is an affirmation. I'll try to keep it nice and short and tight. Uh, I am affirming everything that comes with the fall. It's the air's getting crisp. The season, the, the pumpkin. Yeah. Not, not the fall. With the, let's, let's, let's clarify. I'm affirming everything that comes with autumn. So, uh, the air's crisp, the pumpkin spice is flowing, the leaves are starting to come down. Although, as a New Englander, I feel like I might be a little disappointed this year they're saying that it might not be as vibrant because we've been under a bit of a drought. But, uh, I, I'm all for all of it. Sweaters, gimme like a nice cozy scarf to put on and like a, I don't know, like a stocking cap. Gimme some flannel. I'm just ready to rock and roll. I'm, I'm, I'm done with summer and I'm ready for fall and yeah, that's, that's the whole thing. That's the affirmation. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:03:09] Autumnal Delights and Debates Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. It's speaking of like eternally or seasonally contemporary. That is so good. Plus I would say like the fall or autumn. The best adjectives, doesn't it? Yes. Like including like the word ottum. Yes. Like, that's just a great word that we, we do not use enough of. So this season, loved ones dropping a tum in there because Yes. It's just such a good word. Tony Arsenal: And I, I know people hate on the pumpkin spice and uh, there was a rev, I think I've said this before, it's re revolutionized my understanding because I used to get so mad because I was like, this doesn't even taste like pumpkin. It's not pumpkin flavored items, it's pumpkin spiced. Flavored items. So it's the, the spice you would use in pumpkin pie is the spice that they're talking about. So people complain that you're just putting nutmeg in things. And to that, I say yes, that's the point. You just start adding nutmeg or pumpkin spice or cloves or all spice or whatever it might be. The point is we're using the same spices that you would use for making a pumpkin pie or some other sort of fall. Delicious fall. Pumpy squashy, goodness. Jesse Schwamb: You got that right. This is a classic case of don't hate the player. Hate the game. Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. And if you don't like it, if you don't like pumpkin spice, then just don't talk to me at all. I'm just kidding. Still get pumpkin spice. Like you can go to Starbucks and get the same, same coffee you always get. You don't have to get pumpkin spice, you don't have to drink pumpkin beer, you don't have to do any of that. The all the stuff is, all the normal stuff is still available. They don't tell you you can't have it. Nobody is opening your mouth and pouring it down your throat. So just calm down, order your normal drip coffee and move on with your life. Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of polarizing autumnal type things, I don't know if we've talked about probably, we have talked about this and I've just forgotten. Where do you land on the whole. Cotton, uh, sorry. Candy corn, not cotton candy, but candy corn. Tony Arsenal: I, I feel like we have talked about this and my perspectives may have changed over the years. I'm not a big fan of candy corn, but I will eat it until I vomit. If you put it in front, I think is the, is the consensus that if there's a bowl of it in front of me, the first thing that I will do is I will break off two little white tips of the ca uh, candy corn and stick them on my fangs and pretend to be vampire. Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. Tony Arsenal: And then I will eat the remainder of the pound and a half of candy that's in front of me until I throw up. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I know there's some difference between like candy, corn and like the little pumpkin confectionary ones. Yeah. Some people prefer those over others. And then this is not even to talk about the whole debate between when it comes to Reese's Peanut butter cups and Oh yeah. The pumpkin variety of those and No, all that stuff. Tony Arsenal: No. Mm. Jesse Schwamb: No. To those? Tony Arsenal: No, to those. The, the shaped, the shaped, uh, Reese's Peanut butter objects, I suppose they're not cups at that point. Uh, they use a different kind of peanut butter. I dunno if you know that, but they use a different peanut butter. So they, they actually do taste different than the actual didn't know that says peanut butter cups. Um, it's either a different kind of peanut butter or a different kind of chocolate. But one of the primary substances, uh, not in the Aristotelian sense, uh, one of the primary substances is different. And so it does actually taste different. It's not as good. And then the balance between the chocolate and the peanut butter is off. It's, it's not good. I'm a, I'm a peanut butter cup. Uh, I like to say aficionado, but I think probably snob would be a better. A better term for it. Jesse Schwamb: Listen, you'll, you like what you like by the way, only on this podcast, only, I think among long-term listeners, would it be necessary to clarify that you do not mean substance in there was six alien sense. Tony Arsenal: That's true. That's, that's definitely true. Well, Jesse, that is where we are. Enough about my, uh, fall. Uh, food preferences. What are you affirming and or denying? Tonight, [00:07:02] Musical Recommendations Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna also come along with you on it with the affirmation, and maybe while you're drinking that PSL or you're searching for that candy, corn, you might like, want something to put into your ears that isn't us, that's a little bit more melodic. And so I'm affirming with the, this time and age in which it is all about curation. That's often a lovely thing. I use Spotify for all of my music consumption, and they just fed me like a really interesting playlist that I would never have thought of as a category, but I've really been enjoying, it's called Math Rock. And I saw, and I thought I'm, I'm usually kinda like dubious of the Spotify playlist because like they're kind of out there for me generally. But I thought to myself, well, this is an interesting port man too. Like, I like math. I like rock, and the description was complex rhythms and mesmerizing loops. So I thought, I like complex rhythms. I like loops that continue and mesmerize, so the check it out for yourself. If you're looking for something that's like, it's enough to be interesting while you're working on something, but not too interesting. So that distracts you. This is apparently the jam. So yeah, it's like just really interesting rock oriented, mostly instrumental music that is like. Really motivating, but again, not interesting enough to really distract you from the task at hand if that's not your thing. The other thing I would recommend, I know you'll join me in this, Tony, is that poor Bishop Hooper released a new album this week. It's called The Serpent and the Seed, and this one has a ton of tracks on it, like 18 or so, and it, it as well is a unique mix of both instrumental, really lovely, beautiful pieces and then some that carry more vocal and melodic stuff that's kind of their customary jam. Both of 'em are great. They both do have kind of an an autumnal vibe, if I'm honest. Now I'm thinking about it. It's really the perfect compliment to whatever it is that you're consuming that has that pumpkin spice in it. So math, rock, the serpent and the seed. There you go. Tony Arsenal: I'm trying to synthesize. I mean, math and rock are like two of Jesse's favorite things. So I'm trying to synthesize what it would be like to scream the quadratic equation at someone with some sort of like slightly off cadence, dissonant guitar rift underneath. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Tony Arsenal: I feel like there's a Me Without You album out there somewhere that that's exactly what it is. But Jesse Schwamb: yeah, probably there should Tony Arsenal: be at least. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there, there absolutely should be. And I'm with you. I'm willing to work on that album. That's a great idea. Like just, it's just an album of mathematical equations and like the deep mysteries of life, you know, listen, math is beautiful. Numbers are stories. There's, there's so much there. Yeah. You had me at Quadratic, so I, I think we've, we've given people a lot to enjoy in this fall season. It's true. Tony Arsenal: I, I. I couldn't solve a quadratic equation to save my entire life at this point. Uh, I took introduction to logic when I got to college 'cause I couldn't remember how to multiply fractions on the entrance exam. That's fair. So that's fair. So that was, that's my experience with math. But right Jesse Schwamb: now the internet wants to keep serving me videos about, you've seen like all these tests, like these entrance exams for like Harvard or like the Ivy Leagues, other Ivy Leagues, and it is all these random things, you know, like we're solving for like two variables, terminally, and there is some kinda like expon explanation to it. Um. Yeah, I guess that's what I've become and I watch 'em all. They honestly get me every time. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not gonna watch that. And then I'm like, oh, I'm definitely gonna watch that. So it just happens. It's great. Tony Arsenal: I love it. Meanwhile, meanwhile, YouTube is desperately trying to get me to watch Season six and Cobra High. And it's very quickly gonna be succeeding. I think the next time Netflix has a, has a promotion where I can get a cheap month or something like that, I will definitely be binging Cobra Kai. So I feel like our YouTube algorithms are very different. Jesse Schwamb: Very different. Yeah. Very different. Certainly in, um, there is a commonality of, of the mysteries of the world and. [00:11:06] Introduction to the Parable of the Sower Jesse Schwamb: In some way, that's what we're talking about in this entire series. And yeah, if for some reason you didn't hear a conversation from two weeks ago where we really set the table, I think for what a parable is, why Jesus uses parables. As far as I remember, you correct if I'm wrong, it was the definitive conversation about why the parable is not just peace wise in Jesus' teaching, but really why it's the centerpiece. Yeah, we talked about that at great length. So now we're really ready to go. If you didn't hear that, I highly recommend you go back and hear that. 'cause there's so much. I realize as we, we looked at this parable of the sower or better like the parable of the soils, that we could do a whole series on just this bad boy. Such not just like wide interpretation, but wide application. So much for us to really chew on and then to really come back to and chew the could. So we're gonna have to be probably every time a little bit self-editing and brief. So if you're just yelling at your device, why aren't you talking about this thing? There's a great place for you to yell into or maybe just calmly and very politely suggest rather than the void, you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just an app for, it's kind of a conversational tool and platform, and if you're looking for it and I know that you are, don't, why would you even fool yourself? It's, you can find it by going to T Me Reform Brotherhood. There's a whole channel, there's a bunch of channels there, a bunch of little conversations that we have compartmentalize. There's one just to talk about the episode. So as we go through this, my encouragement to everybody is track with us, get your scriptures out. Come along with us in the actual journey of processing this. Do spend some time processing it with us. And then when there is inevitably that thing, they're like, why didn't you talk about this? You know, a great place to converse with others and us about that would be in the Telegram Chat. So T Me Reform Brotherhood. So enough of that, let's get to it. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's, there's some, um, there's some logic that would say we should have just rather than doing an Introduction to Parables episode, we should have just done the parable, because this parable does really follow, it really does form like an introduction to all of Christ's parabolic teachings. And, you know, it's, no, it's no, um, mystery either in God's providence or just in Matthew as being a, a, you know, somewhat genius level composer of, of a work of literature in putting this parable first, because you're absolutely right at the top of the show that this parable really is. Almost like the hermeneutical key for all of the parables. Not just for in terms of like understanding the parables, it doesn't do that so much. But in understanding the purpose of the parables and more importantly, explicitly in the middle of this, Christ explains why he teaches in parables. So we covered that a lot last time, so we're not gonna, we're gonna skip over that middle section 'cause we don't need to rehash that. But this really is the granddaddy of all the parables. It it is, um. It is Christ's teaching on why he uses parables in action. It's the application of his own theology, of parables, if you want to call it that. Uh, in principle. And he is gracious enough that in this very first parable, he actually gives us the interpretation, right, which is, is not entirely unique, um, in, in the gospels, but it is not always the norm. There are a fair number of parables where Christ just drops the parable and leaves it there, um, for both his immediate listeners to figure out and then also for us to figure out. We're not given the inspired interpretation, but this one we are given the inspired interpretation. And Jesse, I had to laugh because, um. Just as you get really, really upset and worked, worked up about when people say Christ's body broken for you. Uh, it just drives me nuts when people call this the parable of the soils. 'cause Christ gives it a name, right? So, so we'll talk about that too. And I, I'm, I'm mostly playing, like, I'm not gonna jump through the screen at you or anything like that, but that's the, one of the other unique features of this parable is that it's given it's, it's given a name. Um, and that's part of the interpretation is that in most cases, parables have a primary figure or a primary point that's being made. And if you get that primary point wrong or that primary figure wrong, um, you tend to get the rest of the parable wrong. In this case, Christ graciously tells us who the parable is about or what the parable is about, and then later on when we get to the, the next parable or a couple parables down, um, he actually tells us more about the parable through some other teaching as well. [00:15:38] Reading and Analyzing the Parable Tony Arsenal: So, Jesse, do you have that text in front of us? Do you wanna go ahead and read that first chunk? That's the parable itself. Jesse Schwamb: I do, let's do it by the way. Uh, maybe somebody should keep track. Here's a fun little game of how many times we say parable or parabolic. And of course, whenever I hear parabolic, I always think, of course there is like something of great hyperbole or allegory, but I often think of, uh, parabola, which to your point, Tony, I think you're just doing this for my sake now, and I love, this is an exponent oriented equation. Of course, it's a like a canonical section, which can only be creative mathematically by pronunciation again. So thank you for that. I thought you just did that for me, so Tony Arsenal: I have no idea what you just said. You might as well have been speaking like Hindu. Jesse Schwamb: It's fantastic. Well, let's, let's get to the actual, the best word, the word of life. And this is from Matthew chapter 13. Beginning just at the start of the chapter. That same day, Jesus went out of his, uh, house and sat beside the sea and, and great crowds gathered about him so that he got into a boat and sat down and the whole crowd stood on the beach. And he told them many things in parables saying. A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprung up since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched. And since they had no roots, they were it away. Other seeds fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain. Some a hundred fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears, let him hear. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So on a surface level here, the, the parable is straightforward, right? We have a very straightforward picture, which is, is common for most of the parables, that it's not some sort of unusual, crazy out there situation that's being described. It's a common scenario from everyday life, uh, that doesn't tend to have sort of like. Mythological legendary kinds of characteristics. We have a simple farmer who is out sowing his seeds. Um, some of the commentaries we'll point out, and I don't, I dunno how accurate this is or isn't, but I, I saw it in, in a couple different commentaries. So I'm inclined to, to believe it that our model of farming, uh, in sort of a western world or, or maybe not western world, but in a more, I dunno, technologically advanced world, is to teal the ground till the ground first, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: And then to scatter seed. And it was much more common in the ancient world to actually scatter the seed kind of, uh, promiscuously and then till the ground. Um, I don't know the reasons for that. I'm not a horticulturist, but, um. The, the, one of the critiques that I've heard, and it's funny when people try to critique Jesus is 'cause they're always proven wrong, but one of the critiques I've heard is like, no farmer whatever would ever do this. Like, no, no sower would ever just throw seed on the ground, but this actually is the way they would've done farming. So he's, he's taking an everyday scenario that everyone would've been familiar with. Right. Nobody would've been like, oh yeah, that doesn't make any sense. They would've just said, oh yeah, of course you just throw the seed on the ground and then you come back around later and you do what you need to do. So it, it was really a scenario where some of the seed would've fallen on the path. And we're not talking about like a road next to the farm, but a lot of times the, the field had sort of, um. They're probably called like convenience trails is what they're called now. But people would travel through the, through the paths, and so there would be an area that's already walked, walked on that's a little bit easier to traverse. And eventually that area would turn into a pathway. So it was, it was kind of turned into sort of like hard clay turf that you couldn't get the seed into anyways. And then there would've been areas where, um, there was rocks under the surface. Most of our fields that our farm fields have been tilled and prepared and have been worked over, that the stones had been removed. But it wasn't always like that in the ancient world. And then you would've had areas where there was, uh, there was other vegetation, thorns, weeds, other kinds of plants that would've made, made it difficult for the crop to sprout and to bear fruit. So we have a very common scenario. There's nothing surprising about this. There's nothing out of the ordinary. It's just a simple farming metaphor that Christ employs here. Jesse Schwamb: And in some ways that's very consistent of course, because we have these very ordinary, normal things that God is using as a means of explanation for something that is very extraordinary, very supernatural. So we have the natural coming into play, not just as a representation, but to really demonstrates, illustrates and impound both in structure and form. This idea of what it means for the gospel to be communicated. And I'm with you, my understanding is in most ancient world. Those, those fields, we tend to think of them as fields and often the reference that way were like more like these narrow strips of land separated by these paths and you have this farmer casting the seed like very liberally. And not only that, but I think what's interesting right on the face. Is we see that there are basically four potential outcomes here and only one of those outcomes, 'cause we're already understanding this to mean the sowing of the sea, which is the word of life, which is the gospel message. Only one of those outcomes results in kingdom growth. There's a ratio of three to one. There's three times as many poor outcomes. In other words, there's all of these various ways in which we find that the seed is not rejected or does not result in the intended fruit. But there is just one path, one narrow kind of way in which it does result, and then it results in kind of various outcomes in terms of like the magnitude of the fruit or the plants that result from this planting. But as a result of that. I think what's really interesting to me right on the face is that we're seeing, like you said, there is a sower. He's casting the seed deliberately, he's coming on the path and he's just throwing it out. And in that narrow strip of land, there are all these different soils. And so right away we see if you're, if you're a farmer, you're understanding something about, it's not about the skill of the farmer in the casting of the seed. It's not even about the, the skill of the seed to grow. It's about the soil itself. And so again, we have this as three times as many potentially poor outcomes as there are for the one that results in this grand harvest. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And the one thing about this that might be, might have been, and, and again, some of the commentators are, are split on this, but might have been a sort of unexpected, um, element. And, and this is something we do see with, uh, with the parables, is there's usually some sort of, um. Unexpected or dramatic or turn of events kind of element, usually towards the end of a parable that would make, would, should be a subversion of expectations. Right? Right. And so the, in this instance, um, a yield of 30 times or, or 60 times or a hundred times, all of those yields would be crazy high yields. Um, you know, I, I, I think there are some plants, some of the commentators will make, make a point that there are some plants where like a 30. A 30 yield is normal. Um, but a 30 or a 60 or a hundred times yield of a crop is, is not the expectation. And so I think in, in a scenario like this, the reader or the listener is prepped by the fact that there are three, uh, negative outcomes and only one favorable outcome. To assume that the crop yield is not going to be great. Right? And then the reality is the crops that do sprout the crops that land on the good soil or the seed that lands on the good soil. Not only is it productive, it's so productive that it actually outpaces and kind of compensates for the lack of productivity or the lack of fruitfulness of the other three. So it's, it's three different, uh, it's four possible outcomes and then three levels of fruitfulness. And so this parable does sort of cause the listener or the hearer to think about, um, and start, you know, from the very outset, think about what does, what does it mean that the seed landed on the path and was stolen away by the birds? What does it mean that it sprouted quickly and uh, but didn't have roots and so it withered away in the sun? And what does it mean that, you know, it sprouted among thorns and so it couldn't bear fruit. And then I think the implied, um, the implied question that's being forced here because the parable does start out, you know, saying there was the sower, the sower, um. Sowed this seed out. He doesn't introduce this the same way he normally, he normally does or commonly does, right? Jesus often will start the peril ball by saying something like, the kingdom of God is like, right? Or you know this. This is like that. This, he just starts out saying like, a sower was out in the, in the field sowing seed. So the, the listener is not primed to know what the comparison is necessarily, but I think part of that is that now they're forced to ask what is the comparison? And I don't think it's much of a stretch. And again, this is why parables are so kind of paradoxical is it's not a difficult, when we get to the interpretation, it's not difficult to see the interpretation. Right, right. It's, it's easy to understand that the parable here, the metaphor is, is different reactions of, of some sort to. To a given thing, right? It's, it's different reactions to an investment of some sort. There's an investment of seed and in some instances it just doesn't take, in other instances, it takes and it doesn't sprout, and in other instances it sprouts, but it never fruits. So when we get to the interpretation, Jesus is gonna give us the clarity of what that investment is, and then who are, or what are the outcomes and what do they mean? In, in our, you know, in our thought process of what the kingdom of God is like. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so let's do it then. [00:25:44] Understanding the Soils Jesse Schwamb: 'cause what we've got here is we basically have, each soil is representing some type of here. So we've got four heres but only one true believer. So it's probably behooves us to go through all of them and really kind of chat through. And maybe what we can do is try to bring some of our own practical application to each of these. I've been really meditating and pondering that, trying to think if this is practical for us, then how can we understand how each of these are being manifest all around us? And of course the intention here is not to like name people that we think fall into each of these four little groups, but more so to think about how we might understand people who do fall into each of these groups. And that is to say that. Each one of these, well, the, the first three rather, that these ones in which they're, the soil is in some degree suboptimal. I, I don't know that it means that it's always that way, for instance. So we might think of people that fall into those categories, but the Lord may be moving or working in them to move them into that fourth category. And of course, he's done that with ourselves, so we know that that's exactly how he operates. Um, and it's, I think it's good for us to remember that. I think there's a lot that's scary about this first soil, this idea that. The seed just bounces. So we get no uptake whatsoever in this one. But the other ones, at least you get a little satisfaction that there's some kind of reception. There is a receipt of that word. And the reason why I find this one to be so troubling is because these who hear it in the first case, they don't understand and they don't esteem it. And Christ is very clear to say that the seed itself doesn't sit there long. It bounces. So there's a, there is a literal hardness. That's reflected in that clay soil or that path, which is down trotted. And it's hard because of perhaps this constant lack of belief, this constant and unrepentant hearts or lifestyle, but it would be enough if it just kinda bounced off and sat there. But the fact that it's snatched away that the birds come and take it away, that Satan himself has an active and powerful role in influencing all of those who are hearing this word. And I think that hardness of heart may not just be manifest in, say, like an unrepentant lifestyle or this kind of clench fist against God on the inside, which is of course true of the natural man. But more than that, that anything that would take us away from true belief. So that is even any kind of our religious system or belief, any kind of philosophy, any kind of other worldview I think is in mind here because we know the devil comes to kill, steal, and destroy. And so. What he's doing in that sometimes happens first and foremost in the mind, manifested in the heart and then in our behaviors. So if he's stealing away this word by replacing it with something that is false, that is not true, that destroys, that pulls us away and moves us away, then this is very scary. He has a real power, which we talked about. I don't know, like maybe six or so episodes ago. It's worth listening to, I think. And so what I find here that is really traumatizing upfront is the involvement in particular of the sinful man under his own mean estate. That is, that it's clear that the natural man cannot conceive of the things of God without regeneration, and Jesus makes it abundantly clear. He's, he's basically saying what Paul says later on in First Corinthians when he writes, the natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God, does not accept them. So again, there's no agreement. There's no, even an intellectual ascent does not accept the things of the spirit of God for they are folly to him and he's not able to understand them because they're spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one for who is understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him. But we have the mind of Christ, so there is no mind of Christ, which is, it's a horrible way to live life. And so in that space we have both the natural man, his total depravity, unable to pull himself up by his theological bootstraps or philosophical bootstraps or his intellectual emotional bootstraps to even discern what the way in which the world really actually is. And then in in, I say in addition to that, we have the devil himself waging war and attacking by pulling away that seed. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I have a little bit of a different take on this and I think this is what I am looking forward to in this series. Is there, there is gonna be. [00:30:01] Understanding the Parable of the Sower Tony Arsenal: Different, uh, different understandings that probably all fall and are all compatible, but all fall within a acceptable range of understanding. Here, you know, I, in, in reading some of the commentaries, Calvin makes the point that all four of these different types of seed represent people who in some sense are open to the gospel. They're, they're open to, he, he makes the point that this is not talking about the, the person who like refuses to hear the gospel at all, who like won't even come into the church. This is a person predominantly who is, is exposed to the word in some sense, probably in view as someone who's among the people of God who's in the, in the, in the physical body of the people of God who's among Christians or among those hearing the word. And for whatever reason, the, the, the seed doesn't, uh, it doesn't even get into the soil. Right, and he compares, Christ compares, um, this not to somebody who is hardhearted, but to someone who doesn't understand, right? That there's an intellectual element to this, right? You think of, um, you know, you think of somebody who hears the scripture and probably understands outwardly what it means, but doesn't ever comprehend it internally. They don't ever really, they don't ever really let it penetrate into their, into their hearts. Um, so it's been sewn into their hearts, but it doesn't actually take root in their hearts in any other sense. [00:31:38] The Role of the Soil in Receiving the Word Tony Arsenal: And this is what's a little bit different from, from the other ones that we're gonna see in all of the other cases. The seed takes root, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: It actually penetrates the ground and begins to grow. Um, it, this is a seed that never even makes it that far. And so it may not be someone who has like a, who necessarily has like a closed fist. I hate the gospel. I hate everything about God, but for some reason they're just not. And when we say for some reason I'm talking, obviously I'm talking la you know, horizontally. Um, we know that the reason that they don't have an open heart is 'cause the Holy Spirit is not open to their heart. But for whatever earthly temporal reason, the word just doesn't penetrate. It bounces off of them. It just doesn't get there. Not necessarily because they're outwardly hostile to it. They just maybe are not interested in it. And so this is where I think that. Along with the evil one, snatching it away. That's actually like one in the same thing. Is, is part of what I think this is getting at is that the, the, the only reason that the, um, that Satan can snatch away the word from their heart or what has been sewn into their heart is because their heart has not received it. And so it's that sort of dual function and, and maybe it's kind of like, almost like, uh, in Exodus, you know, God hardening the heart and then Pharaoh hardening the heart and those two things are happening, you know, by means of concurs that God is doing it in a divine sense. I almost feel like this is an instance where kind of like the, the census or, or with job where Satan is the one who is doing it, but it's ultimately attributed to God as well. It's the hardening of the heart, but it's also the hardness of heart. Um, all of those things are playing a dynamic, but ultimately the point here is that there are those who the word is preached to. [00:33:30] The Sower's Responsibility and the Soil's Condition Tony Arsenal: Um, you know, we will find out in, in a little bit later, like, the sower is Christ in, in these parables here. It's not, it's not generally the sowing of the word. It's Christ who is sowing the word. It's the son who is sowing, uh, the seed of the word. And we can think about that either during his own ministry. This certainly was, um, was true of his own ministry on Earth, that there were some who just did not receive the word and they just, it just bounced off of them. But then also as the son sows the seed through his people, down through the church age, through history, whether it's in the Lord's Day service or personal, witnessing, personal, you know, um, evangelism, it's still God who is sowing the seed. It's still the Lord who is the sower of the seed. But even in that context, there are still some who just don't receive it. So I think what you said earlier is really, is really spot on. This parable is not about. The skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed. Right. And I think sometimes people read this and they, they look at it as though it is actually the sewer's fault. What a dumb sower. He sowed it on the path. Of course it's not gonna take root. That's not the point of the parable at all. The point of the parable, and we learn it just right, this very first one, is that it has to do with the, the soil itself. Which is why, you know, I, I kind of joke about calling it the parable of the soils, and that's a fine way to refer to it. And most of these parables could have multiple different, you know, accurate titles as well. But the point of the parable, or the main point of the parable is that the soil itself is what determines the outcome. Again, you know, we, we don't need to get into all the theological details of how the soil becomes, what the soil is. This show has the word reformed in the title. You can figure out that we're gonna say, well, God is the one that prepares the soil. And that also just fits with the, with the a parable here, right? The good soil is only good because it's been tilled and prepared by the sower ahead of time, right? So I think that's, that's spot on. And, and you know, as I think about the people I know in my life, um, it's very easy to get discouraged when you try to so seed to, to follow through on the metaphor when you try to so seed and it feels like it bounces off. But we shouldn't be surprised at that. We shouldn't be surprised when someone is just not interested because Christ in his very first parable tells us there are people out there like that. That doesn't mean you don't sow the seed, it doesn't mean you don't continue to spread the seed the way that the sower does. And the reason for that is that some of it is going to take, take root, some of it is going to take root and bear fruit and you are not in charge and you don't control which one does which. We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this, so this seed everywhere that he can. [00:36:26] The Reality of Hardheartedness Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there is something there that I think is comfortable about this hardness of the soil, because I think sometimes we underestimate that the normative position of man is to be antagonistic toward God. That's not to say like we're talking about in their every action they take, they're going to refuse to hear the gospel or they're going to fight vehemently or out outwardly against it. But it's true that everywhere we find the scriptures, whether it's this other metaphor about God, again, doing this great surgery, of taking out this height of stone, which is of course hardheartedness or whether we go to like Romans three, where Paul says that there's no one who understands, there's no one who seeks God. So we understand that the default position is, one, nobody's seeking after God. Two, that God is too threatening to us. He threatens ourself. He threatens our ego, he threatens our own way. He threatens our contingency, all of which we try to fight against, like to our own dismay. And you know, basically. You know, it's willing, suspension of disbelief. But it's interesting and I think comforting here that what he's saying is, is exactly what you've just said, which is do not he, he'd almost say like loved ones. Do not be surprised when you find that people are just not that interested. They're just not into the gospel. Because your default position is to be a gospel abuser. To be a covenant breaker. And so because of that, there's just a natural hardness. And that hardness, I think he has to draw out. He has to say it's gonna bounce and Satan's gonna snatch it away because it would be, it's too easy to look at those who are just like vehemently opposed to the gospel that wanna debate. You wanna shut you down, wanna yell at you, wanna put signs in your face, wanna spit on you. That's too easy to be like, well, of course. Those people are not gonna receive it. But what about the quiet people who just don't care? Or, yeah. What about the people who are too caught up in their way of life or their simple behaviors or their patterns, or again, just what? What about those? What about the Mormons? When they come to your door and you can speak into your blue in the face about what Paul says, like the gospel plus anything is anathema, and they're just kinda like, yes. Yeah. Totally. That's fine. Totally down with that. And you're like, yeah, but you're doing, you're doing that very thing. This is great comfort to know that even those situations where you're not at war explicitly with somebody, that it's still comforting to know that this is going to happen. And also I think it's a great reminder that apart from God, apart from that changing of the soil, as you said, Tony, we would be those same people. That's in fact where we start. I, I don't say that. Like there's a progression here. We find in the, from moving from one to four. There is though something like you've said, where it's just interesting that Jesus shows us the very kind of shades of this. And I think, again, we gotta get out of our head like the, the temporality of this or like, well, what length of time are we talking about? Like when we get to the second one, which we should move on to. And there is some sprouting of the seed. Like how much time are we talking about? Like if it's two weeks, are they in camp two, if it's three weeks, are they moved out of that into some other, one of the other schools? Uh, I think it's just to show us that there are really, again, four hearers, one believer, and we can see clearly what the one believer looks like. It's a little bit more difficult to maybe sometimes discern what the other three look like, but it gives us hope and encouragement and basically just a sense of like, this is the way the world works. To know pres positionally, that when we go out, and like you said, I love this already, this is a major theme, is speak the gospel to all people. I mean, in this way, the gospel is for all people. Because Jesus' saying, do not cast the seed here. Go and look at that narrow path and find out, try to keep it off the, the hard ground. Do not let the devil snatch it up. It just says, throw and seed, throw and seed. And so we have to keep doing that stuff. [00:40:10] The Challenge of Shallow Roots Jesse Schwamb: So let's get to number two. What, what? Yeah. What say? Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Let me read it here. This is in verse, uh, 20 and 21. Here. It says, as for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. Yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. And when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the world, immediately he falls away. So thi this is the person who, um, who has some sort of outward conversion experience, right? It's a person who receives the word, he receives it with joy, um, and appears to sprout, right? This is seed that has taken hold and has, uh, you know, the, the, and we, we can see that it has taken hold. So it's not just some hidden seed that has roots and never breaks the surface. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a plant that has made its way into the soil. It has taken roots of some sort. Um, but the roots are shallow. The roots never actually get, uh, deep enough to, to be able to survive the sun, right. In the, the original parable, it's, it's baked by the sun. And, you know, this is, um, I think what what we're gonna see is maybe to sort of preface your question, and I think probably this is gonna be one of those two parter episodes, even though we planned it to be one parter episode. Um, I think what we're gonna see here is that you can't actually know whether someone is. The hard rocks is the rocks or the thorns. Right? Un until, until all is said and done. Right. Right. And that's part of what's difficult is you, you want to look at a parable like this, and this is where I think maybe this is a good sort of like caution against overinterpreting, the parables, right? Christ is not trying to give us a rubric to identify who is what. Jesse Schwamb: Right. He's Tony Arsenal: not trying to give us like a litmus test to say like, that person is the hard soil. That person is the rocks. That person is the thorns. And you know, this reminds me, I, I recall, I, I dunno how many years ago, it was a couple years ago when Kanye West was going through his like Jesus phase, right? And he, everyone was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that Kanye is a Christian and he's writing this album called Jesus. Jesus Saves. And, and I, I just remember saying at the time, like, guys, there's a parable of the soils here. Like we should be. Um, we should be joyful that it, it appears that this seed is taking root, but there are lots of different outcomes when the seed takes root. And it's funny because I, I don't, I don't remember what episode this was and please don't go look it up 'cause that's a waste of everyone's time. But I remember when that conversation happened and I don't know whether there was an affirmation or a denial or what context came up in, but I remember contrasting him to Justin Bieber. And it's ironic, right, because I actually just read on Twitter today. Let me see if I can find the post during the next time you're talking. Justin Bieber posted this really amazing, theologically astute, mature kind of statement on Twitter today. And I think at the time, if you had asked me, um, is Kanye more likely to be the good soil or Justin Bieber to be the good soil, I would've said Kanye. Right? Just because he's, he was older, he is a little bit more established in himself. Um. Justin Bieber was still very young. He was, he was sort of like all over the place personality wise. He seemed to be changing radically. And it just goes to show like, you can't tell. And, and I'm not even saying right now like, this is, this is where it gets difficult. I'm not even saying right now, Justin Bieber is good soil, although I did right. Retweet his quote and did hashtag good soil. Almost aspirationally, right? But we can take a look at someone's life in retrospect and say, this person is bearing fruit, or this person is not bearing fruit. And, and that's really where this particular, um, type of soil goes. It's not so much the fruit, it's the sprout. And I think when we look at a situation like Kanye and, and. There's hopefully still a lot of life left for Kanye, and that means there's still hope for a con, a genuine conversion and bearing fruit that keeps with repentance that does not appear to be what had happened at the time. Right? He's gone totally off the rails at this point. So we pray for that. We hope, we hope for better things for him. Um, but. At the time, Kanye was, is he, he's going by Y now. I don't even know what to call him anymore. But Kanye was a sprout that grew up with great joy quickly. And what we found through time is that it appears that he, when he was, although maybe he fits better into the second, this next category that we'll have to push off till next week, I think. But either way, like he appeared to have sprouted, he appeared to have taken root and ultimately did not actually bear fruit. And that's the defining feature of these first three ones. It's not so much about what happens with the seed. Does it get in the ground? Does it not get in the grow? Does it sprouts, does it not sprout? It's ultimately about the fruitfulness, right? The final, the final phase of the parable, the final, um, the final type of soil is the one that produces fruit. So we'll get to that in detail, but that's what we need to think about. And again, like I said, it's not as though crisis saying like, all right, here's this checklist of ways to determine whether someone's conversion is correct, is true or not. Because we can't know that until after the fact and well after the fact. We also can't know that it's valid until after the fact. What I think this parable, broadly speaking, gets at is that we have to look at every situation and realize that there are these different possible outcomes. And although I don't know that this is explicitly part of the parable, it also sort of points us to the fact that like, because it's not a foregone conclusion about what's gonna happen, maybe there's also something we can do about it. Right? Right. Maybe when we realize someone might be on the rocky soil. Whether we, we have some reason to believe that or we just want to get out in front of that possibility, maybe there's still room to actually get in there and, and move the seed to a different soil, I guess might be a better way to use the metaphor is to, to just take the seed somewhere else or to till the soil, to get the rocks out of the soil. Although this is not talking about like rocks in the soil. It's talking about a layer, probably a layer of bedrock. Like Yes, exactly. Just under the surface. Jesse Schwamb: Right? So Tony Arsenal: there is an immutability about these, these different categories of, of people, and again, this is where like overinterpreting, the parable can get to be problematic, but we, we see that there are these categories, we can't necessarily know which one of these categories a person is in when they have some sort of outward expression of faith where they've received. I think we can tell the difference between that first category. Someone who just has not received the, the gospel at all, has not received the word of God at all, right? Like it's just bounced off of him. It's made no impact. I think we can see that that's a relatively straightforward, um, situation for us to assess. And of course we can't see someone's heart, but it's, it's usually pretty outwardly, readily available to us that they just have not received the word in any means. Right. When we get to these second two categories, that's not the case. We're talking about two different categories of people who have received the word and it has begun to sprout. It has begun, it actually has sprouted, not just begun to sprout, but it's sprouted. Um, I just think we need to be really careful to sort of not place someone in an immutable category until after we've seen what's gonna happen. Yes. Really across their whole life. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:47:41] The Importance of Deep Roots in Faith Jesse Schwamb: I'm glad you brought that up because we really have to remember that in the last three instances, you cannot tell from the soil what the outcome will be. So it is a little bit, I'm with you, kind of a misnomer in the translation. This idea of like rocky soil. Yeah. If it were truly like rocky soil, the way that probably most of us in the Western think of it like soil mixed with gravel, right? They're probably, the sewer would be like, why would I throw it on there like that? That doesn't make any sense. Certainly again, if you're looking for that, that really fertile, well tilled ground, the one that looks promising, you wouldn't do that. So more than likely, I'm with you. We're talking about like a hired limestone layer that would've been like a few inches below, and as the sun would come down, my understanding is of course, like that limestone would heat up. It'd be like the perfect warm environment for like a seed to immediately like spring up with some hope. And that's exactly I think what Jesus is after here. It's this idea that the seed springs up immediately. People receive the message with joy. There's been no root or development to deeper moist soil though, because it doesn't exist. It gets blocked out. But inci incidentally, like the heat of that rock bed actually is the thing that causes it to germinate and produce at least a sprout really, really quickly. But as soon as like any kind of other heat comes upon it, because it cannot not grow deeper because it cannot set the roots, because it cannot get enough water from deep down, then it's going to be quick to die. I think we see this all the time. Maybe we even see this to some degree, not exclusively and in the same kind of magnitude in our own lives. But you know, we may listen to a sermon with pleasure while the impression produced in us is like only temporary, short-lived. You know, our hearts can be like that stony ground. Sometimes it may yield like a plentiful cop clap of warm feelings and like good resolutions and good vibes. How often do we hear that language? But all this time, there may be no deeply rooted work in our souls. And that first like cold blast of oppression or temptation may cause like all of that to go away. What I see interpret it from this particular group and, and this the one that follows it very much the same is like a conversion to religion. So here where this is where I firmly, like, I think we have a class, and this might trigger some people, but I'm gonna say it anyway. We have a class for this to me is deconstructionism. Yeah. And I think what I've, I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind is that. I'm not sure that we have to be so concerned in this, this metaphor or this great parable about like what's the length of time here? So for instance, is it possible that somebody could be in this place where there is this hard layer of rock, which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end. Yeah, where somebody has heard the gospel message has come into the life of the church and finds that this is generally a pleasant way to believe and to live and to express these ideals until maybe they have a strong voice somewhere or they're confronted with the fact that this, their message now is not very tolerant. And so as soon as there comes against them, this push that maybe what you're saying is too exclusive, that all of a sudden there really is a manifestation that there's no real root there. Yeah, there was no conversion. There was a conversion to religious principle and ideas and insomuch as those things didn't push too much against whatever objectives they had. Not even like going after what happens in the the third instance here with all the pleasures of life and all the temptations of the flesh, but just that there is some challenge. To what they believe and that it would be continually lived out in their actual lives, meaningful enough that it would impact behavior, change their mind, and continue to make them outspoken about the thing in which they're setting their roots into that if those things would cause the death of. That sprouts, then to me, that's where we find deconstruction isn't falling. And so in that case, again, it's comforting because it's not a matter of actual conversion as it were. It's not a matter of actual regeneration that hasn't actually occurred. There's plenty of reasons to come alongside and to give the gospel some kind of favor or to give it some kind of acquiescence because it's good on its own. There are lots of things that are good about it, but the rootedness in that is not merely in the outward manifestations of all the benefits of the gospel. It is getting Christ, as we've said. Yeah. And if we're not abiding in Christ, then we will necessarily die. In fact, Christ says elsewhere when he speaks to himself that even every bad branch that does not bear fruit, the father prunes and throws away. And so here we find that happening. It's, this is traumatic, it is dramatic, but this is where I think we see oftentimes Christians really get unnerved and sometimes it really, I think, rocks them when they see people who've had, like you said, Tony, like some professional faith. And I remember us talking about Kanye, and I remember us saying like, I think you and I were cautiously optimistic. We said like, this is fantastic. God does this very thing where he transforms people. And then we see in the long term, in the long run, the manifestation of that transformation, not in just merely as sinner's prayer or some expression of knowing something about the gospel intellectually, but the living it out so that the plant itself grows up in Christ to know of his great love, and then to share and abide in that love where it bears fruit. And so here I find this again, to be just very comforting because I think we see this a lot and our nerves, a lot of Christians, but I think Christ is giving an example here to say, do not be a unnerved by this. [00:53:10] Encouragement for Sowers and Believers Tony Arsenal: Yeah, maybe one last thought and then we, we can push pause until next week when we come back to this parable. Is. I think it's, there's two words in this, um, this little, these two verses here that really stick out to me. There's the, the word immediately, right? Yes. He immediately receives it with joy. That word is repeated later on when he immediately falls away. So there is a, um, there's a, a sense of suddenness to this, to this kind of, I'm using quotation marks if you're not watching the YouTube to this quotation or this, um, conversion experience, right? I think we all know people who have kind of the slow burn conversion experience, right? That's not to say that those people may not be, um, on hard soil or rocky soil. Right. But the, the person that we're talking about in that crisis talking about is the person who hears the word and has every appearance of an outward, radical, outward conversion of joy. And then joy is the second word that that shows up here. One of the things that drives me crazy, you know, maybe just to, to riff off the, the deconstruction, um, narrative a little bit is it drives me crazy when some sort of, um, high profile Christian falls away from the faith or deconstructs or falls, you know, into deep sin and then abandons the faith or has a tragedy happened in their life and whatever reason they abandon the faith. There's this tendency particularly among, I, I think sort of. I don't know if like, there still are young restless reform Christians out there, but I think it's still a valid descriptor. Kind of like the, I'm trying not to be pejorative, but sort of like the surface level tulip is what I call them, like the five point Calvinists who like heard an RC sprawl sermon one time and think that they are like the def, they're the definition of Calvinism. There's this tendency among that demographic that when somebody falls away from the faith to act as though everything about their experience of Christianity was somehow like an act like it was a, it was a, it was a play they were putting on, they were deceiving everybody. Right. That's that's not real. It's not the, it's not the way that it actually works and, and. I think the, um, the flip side and the caution for us in that is that just because our experience of Christianity and our, our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that like it felt real and genuine and rooted for Derek Webb or for name, name your key, you know, Joshua Harris, name your big profile deconstruction person of the day. Um, there's a caution there for us and I think that's the caution here in this, um, in this, I dunno, part of the parable is. Just as this is saying, the reason that the person falls away immediately is because there is no root in them yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately falls away, right? The cause of this is because there is no route that ca

In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal tackles the concerning theological trend of "Divine Council Theology" and its recent resurgence within Reformed circles. He offers a critical analysis of Michael Heiser's influential work and its problematic popularization by Reformed figures like Doug Van Dorn and John Moffitt. Tony demonstrates how redefining the biblical term "Elohim" to include both God and created spiritual beings in the same ontological category fundamentally undermines the creator-creature distinction essential to Christian orthodoxy. Through careful examination of systematic theological categories, communicable and incommunicable attributes, and implications for Christology, he reveals why this seemingly academic redefinition poses serious threats to biblical monotheism and classical Reformed theology. Key Takeaways Divine Council Theology, popularized by Michael Heiser and now being promoted within Reformed circles, attempts to redefine "Elohim" as a functional category that includes both God and created spiritual beings. This theological trend commits an etymological fallacy by redefining the predominant usage of "Elohim" (which refers to the God of Israel in ~2,300 of 2,600 occurrences) based on minority usages. The approach dangerously blurs the fundamental creator-creature distinction that is essential to Christian monotheism and orthodox theology. Proponents incorrectly classify divine power as a communicable attribute rather than recognizing omnipotence as an incommunicable attribute that cannot be shared with creatures. The theological system makes problematic analogies to the incarnation, showing a confused understanding of the hypostatic union and potentially opening the door to Arian implications. This theology represents a concerning return to concepts the early church fathers fought against when confronting pagan Greek thought, rather than a retrieval of biblical teaching. Departing from the "pattern of sound words" handed down through church history in favor of novel interpretations should raise significant warning flags. Key Concepts The Creator-Creature Distinction The most fundamental division in Christian theology is not between spiritual and material beings, but between the uncreated Creator and everything else that exists. Divine Council Theology dangerously undermines this distinction by placing God and created spiritual beings in the same category of "Elohim." While proponents acknowledge God as the uncreated Creator, they nevertheless insist on categorizing Him alongside angels, demons, and other spiritual entities based on shared attributes of power or function. This categorization system parallels pagan worldviews more than biblical theology, where God exists in a class of one. By defining "Elohim" as a functional category related to spiritual power rather than an ontological one, this approach inadvertently returns to a hierarchical view of spiritual beings with God merely at the "top of the totem pole" rather than in an entirely separate and unique category of existence. This framework subtly but significantly undermines biblical monotheism by suggesting God shares a fundamental nature with His creatures. Communicable vs. Incommunicable Attributes Divine Council Theology mishandles the traditional theological distinction between God's communicable and incommunicable attributes. In classical Reformed theology, communicable attributes (like love or wisdom) can be shared with creatures in a limited, analogical way, while incommunicable attributes (like omnipotence, eternality, or divine simplicity) belong exclusively to God and cannot be shared without making the creature into God. Proponents of Divine Council Theology erroneously suggest that the power denoted by "Elohim" is a communicable attribute that God shares with spiritual beings, rather than recognizing omnipotence as properly incommunicable. This misclassification creates theological incoherence: if God could truly share His omnipotence with creatures, those creatures would effectively become equal to God in power, creating the logical impossibility of multiple omnipotent beings. This confusion of categories demonstrates how this theological system fails to maintain proper distinctions that are essential for preserving the uniqueness and transcendence of God in Christian theology. Memorable Quotes "Christianity and biblical Judaism—the primary distinction is not between spiritual and matter... The primary distinction when we're talking about the most absolute line is the distinction between the uncreated creator and his creation." "Rather than rely on the safe time-tested words and concepts that have been proven and validated, and attacked and defended and have been victorious for hundreds and thousands of years... Moffitt and Van Dorn think it is smarter and safer to depart from the pattern of sound words rather than to keep the pattern of sound words because they think that they are able to look at the Bible the way basically no one ever has in the 2000 years of the church and find something they haven't." "These teachings are pagan. This is talking about returning to a world populated by spiritual beings, and God is kind of just on the highest part of the totem pole... We're just returning to something that the early church fought hard to get rid of when they came out of their pagan culture." Resources Mentioned Reformed Arsenal article series on Divine Council Theology Full Transcript [00:00:24] Introduction and Episode Setup Tony Arsenal: Welcome to episode 461 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I am Tony, and today it's just me. Hey, brothers and sisters. We had a little bit of a scheduling conflict this week, so Jesse is taking the week off and uh, it gives me an opportunity to talk about something that I've been doing a little bit of research on. [00:00:47] Affirmations and Denials Tony Arsenal: Hopefully the listener has noticed that Jesse and I have been trying to keep our affirmations and denials a little bit tighter so we can get into the meat of the episode a little bit quicker. But occasionally we do run into a denial, usually a denial, but we run into a denial that, uh, we often say this could be an episode of its own. And so today is one of those episodes. So I'm not gonna give you my normal affirmation or denial. I'm just gonna jump into it. Now this is gonna be a little bit off the cuff. I've been doing some research, so I may not have as much of the receipts as the kids say, um, as I normally would. But I am writing a series of articles on this issue over@reformedarsenal.com. I'll make sure to put the link to the first article in the show notes. All of the receipts are there, all of the timestamps for the podcast episodes that I'll be. Discussing your critiquing. Are there citations for research work that I'm doing? All that stuff is there. So if you're interested in digging into the meet and you're the kind of guy who, or girl who likes to nerd out in the footnotes, then head over to uh reformed arsenal.com. You'll find the series pretty quick. [00:01:56] Introduction to Divine Counsel Theology Tony Arsenal: What I wanted to talk about today, and I'm glad we have kind of a whole episode, uh, to talk about it, is a movement, uh, that has some foothold in reformed theology. Uh, it's not new, uh, it didn't start in reformed theology, but for some reason, uh, those who are within our orbits tend to be a little bit enamored by this kind of theology. I'm not exactly sure why. [00:02:19] Michael Heiser's Influence Tony Arsenal: This theology is often called Divine Counsel Theology, and it was really, um, you know, it's not entirely new even with, with this figure, but it was really made popular and sort of, um, spread about and made accessible by the late Michael Heiser. Um, part of this is because he was just a very winsome, uh, guy. He took. Sort of highfalutin academic concepts and was able to bring them down to, uh, to an understandable level, including things like ancient near Eastern context, biblical, you know, ex of Jesus Hebrew language, other ancient near Eastern languages, which of course, that's that kind of stuff is what this podcast is all about, taking difficult, sometimes technical concepts. Talking about them, translating them into kind of the language that everybody else speaks. So that project was fine. The issue is the direction that he goes with a lot of the theology. So Michael Heiser writes a book called Unseen Realms, which is seen as kind of a retrieval of the supernatural mindset and worldview of the Bible. Uh, there's a lot to be commended about that, uh, enterprise, about that intention. I do agree with part of what he has to say when he says that we've lost a lot of the supernatural context of the Bible. Um, but I think where he goes with it is a direction that we really ought not go and we'll dig into it. [00:03:43] Critique of Reformed Fringe Podcast Tony Arsenal: The reason this is coming up now is because recently there's been a series of articles and podcasts put out by a show called The Reformed Fringe. Uh, some if you're in the Telegram chat, which you can join at, uh, t Me slash Reformed Brotherhood. You've already seen some of this stuff. We've already talked about it a little bit. But the Reformed Fringe is a podcast that sort of tries to fill a space that's something like Haunted Cosmos, which we've talked about before. Um, fills sort of looking at the weird fringe kind of things in the world. Ghosts, paranormal activity, trying to explain it through a biblical, uh, lens or worldview. Again, that's a commendable. Effort. There are strange things that happen in our world that are not easily explainable or at all explainable by natural, uh, naturalistic means. And so coming to those things with the Bible as our, uh, rubric to instruct us on how the world works is a commendable thing. But again, this project, which is by and large, um, and we'll get into maybe, but by and large is just an extension of, um, Heiser's project really goes in directions that cause all sorts of problems down the road. So the podcast is, uh, run by a guy named Doug Van Dorn, who most of the audience probably hasn't heard of. I have had run-ins with Doug over the years. Um, the last time I ran into him actually was revolving around similar kinds of issues that I'm gonna be calling out today. Um, and it, it ended up with him kind of having to depart from the reform pub, uh, maybe to put it a little bit politely and, um. You know, he has, he has taken, he's theology, which was not explicitly reformed. Heiser was not a reformed guy. He had no claims to be a Calvinist in many ways. Uh, he was sort of anticon confessional in, in that he opposed not the idea of a faith statement, but he sort of purported to come to the Bible with no biases, with no tradition. He wanted to approach what he called the Naked Bible. That was actually the name of his podcast before he died a few years ago. And so what Doug Van Dorn is, has done who, uh, Doug is a claims to be a 1689 Reformed Baptist. He's a pastor in Colorado, I believe. Um, he has tried to take this divine counsel theology and bring it into the reformed world. So he comes at it with a, a slightly different angle, but for the most part, his conclusions are the same. And in many cases he just straight up steals ER's work and doesn't cite it, doesn't do much to, uh, articulate that this is not his original research. Um, so he's taken that and he's trying to bring it into the reformed world. And Heiser himself was actually quite influential when I was a, an admin in the reform pub. We would run into lots of, lots of young reformed guys. Who were really enamored with this and they really saw, he's project as sort of a return to a pure form of exo Jesus that really got at what the Hebrew was saying. And it tickled, I think, kind of an intellectual, uh, an intellectual itch that a lot of those guys had combined with sort of this desire for the new and novel, um, which is in itself can be pretty dangerous. To sort of make things a little bit more pressing, Heiser has teamed up with John Moffitt, who many of our listeners may know. Uh, he's one of the co-hosts and founders of the podcast, Theo Cast, uh, which otherwise is a perfectly fine podcast. Um, he's also a 1680 or claims to be a 1689 Reform Baptist. He's a pastor. Um, their podcast is sort of what you would get if you had, uh, and I don't mean this to be pejorative, although maybe it is a little pejorative. Theo cast is what you would get if you took r Scott Clark. Uh, you made it much less intellectual and careful, and then made it Baptist. And what I mean by that is Scott's whole project. In large part is to recover and to emphasize the law gospel distinction. Theo cast has taken that and sort of cranked it up to 11. Uh, and they have um, they have sort of moved away from a lot of the classical reform distinctions of the law itself, so they don't full on deny the third use of the law. But in practice they would say that, um, good works is no kind of evidence whatsoever for your, um, for your faith. It's no kind of evidence of your, your salvation, which of course are confessions themselves. Um, say that there is a kind of evidential value to assessing our good works within certain reason and con. So the show is otherwise orthodox. You know, I I, I recall hearing episodes where they were refuting things like EFS, um, but because of that, Moffitt brings with him sort of an air of credibility and an error in orthodoxy that, um, the show itself probably hasn't merited. If Doug just recorded, pushed, play and put it on the. I don't think there would've been too much, uh, too much of a following. He would've probably, you know, grabbed a couple people who heard it and thought it was interesting. But because Moffitt has such a following on Theo cast, he brings with him a large audience, and that makes it particularly dangerous because his name attached to it makes it more widespread. It makes it feel like it's safer. And so I think a lot of people, uh, assume that what he's saying is orthodox and good. And I think what we'll find out is, is that it's not. So I think that's enough ProGo. [00:09:10] Elohim and Its Implications Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna go ahead and, and jump into explaining kind of what the theology that we're talking about is and, and what the problems are. So this all started kicked off, uh, with a series of podcast episodes and the first episode, and again, I don't have the specific titles here. I'll put a bibliography in the show notes on this one just so you have links to all the relevant episodes. Um, this all kind of kicked off with a podcast episode called something like The History of the Word God, or something like that. And, um, basically what Moffitt and Van Dorn want to do is they wanna look at the word Elohim in the Bible, which of course is a plural noun. Uh, in Hebrew, the, the suffix, just like in English, we might add an S or an ES, um, to a word to make it plural. Or in Greek, it's usually, if it's a masculine, uh, noun, it's, it's an oi or an omicron iota that sort of always sound at the end. Um, or when we, we talk about Latin, you have, you have like, um, you add the I at the end, so we say octopi instead of octopuses or something like that. Cacti instead of cactus. Although both of those are kind of pig Latins, um, in, in Hebrew for, uh, for masculine nouns. The suffix that you add to make it plural, is that eam sound. It's a, it's an Im if you transliterate in English. So the word Elohim is a plural of the original noun El which is a proper name for a eury deity. But it came to just be the singular word for, for God. Um, and, and in non-biblical language, we would say in a God. Um, and we do see in English, there are in, in Hebrew, in the Bible, there are places where we see the singular of this. It's kind of an older form, so it doesn't show up as much. Um, but by and large when we see the word Elohim in the Bible. Something like, uh, outta 2,600 references or more than 2,600 references in the Bible. Um, the word Elohim is associated with a single, a singular noun, and it only refers to the God of Israel. What Moffitt and Van Dorn want to do is they want to take this word and they wanna define it based on the abnormal. Uh, use of it. So the vast minority, minority of cases in the Old Testament, the word Elohim refers to the gods or to a non, like what we might say is lower G God, either like the God, Baal, or some sort of collective reference to the gods, the gods of the nation, or something like that. They wanna take the fact that there is this variation in the way the word is used and sort of radically redefine how the Bible uses it. And this, this is what I call and what a lot of people would call an etymological fallacy. So what they're doing is, instead of, uh, looking at the word and defining it based on how it's used in an, in an overwhelming fashion, they're looking at sort of the etymology of the word. And then they're using the fact that there are, uh, some pretty Dr. Dramatically minority cases where the word is used in a different way and they wanna redefine it and say, in, in all or most cases in the Bible actually. This is what the word means. So they look at the word L, which from its root has something to do probably with the, with the word for power or something like that. Um, they wanna look at it. And, you know, if you read someone like Vos in Reformed dogmatics in his volume one, he talks about how when we see the name Elohim for God, it denotes or, or refers to his sort of power, his omnipotence, which is all good and fine, just like we would say Yahweh. Uh, as a proper name refers to God sort of in his covenant role. It's his covenant name, his, his intimate, familial name that he shares, uh, with his people or he reveals to his people. Elohim is a more abstract name and it refers to God's power. Usually we see it in relation to his cre creation. So in Genesis one, um, when it's God created, it's Elohim created, which is also important and relevant for, for later. So what they wanna do is they want to say that Elohim actually. What Act Elohim actually means is it's a reference to a class of beings, spiritual beings, and that that it means sort of any spiritual being that has some type of supernatural power or enhanced power, some sort of spiritual power. They do this by saying that the noun is not an ontological noun, it's actually like a noun of function. Um, so like we would say a, a good example in English would be a painter that's a noun of function. It's a title of function. It any person could be called a painter if they engage in the verbal action of painting. And so what they're saying is that any being that engages in the action of having power. Is, uh, is an Elohim. And so that would include, in narrating at least, it would include angels, demons. Uh, I, you know, I don't know that they've said this explicitly, but I, I think Heiser would've included things like ghosts, disembodied spirits, um, humans in sort of the intermediary state might be considered Elohim humans in the, in the, um, this. Life are called Elohim, uh, in some instances. So, so this is where the Divine Council theology comes from, and that comes from Psalm 82, I think, where there's this council of Elohim that, that Yahweh seems to be speaking to and deliberating with. Or you look at Joe, where the sons of God come and they sort of pulled court in God's heavenly presence. So he would say those are examples where the, the collected Elohim. God being one of the Elohim are somehow gathered in this heavenly divine counsel. Now what this does is just devastating to Christian theology is it takes God who exists in a class of one. The, the, the God of the universe is, is the only uncreated entity in all of of the world. And so when we start to talk, and this is ironic, when we start to talk about the ways to divide up the world, the ancient world, the, the pagan world tended to divide the world between, um. Between spiritual and material. So think of g Gnostics where matter was bad and spirit was good. Or even think of something like, um, the Greek pantheons, the Greek, um, Greek religion, like ancient Greek mythology. You have sort of the spirits and the spiritual world and the gods inhabit a spiritual, have a spiritual existence for the most part. And then you have the physical world where kind of people live, uh, at least while they're alive. Christianity and, and Judaism, at least Biblical Judaism. On the other hand, the, the primary distinction is not between spiritual and matter. There is of course that distinction. There are humans, which are spiritual and material. There are animals which are entirely material, and then there are angels which are entirely spiritual. And so we would say that God is spiritual. So that is a distinction in the world. But the primary distinction when we're talking about the most absolute line is the distinction between the, the uncreated creator and his creation. So what Moffitt, Moffitt and Van Dorn do is instead of observing that biblical distinction, which really all of Christian theology and Christian monotheism rests on, they wanna say that instead, the distinction is between the. Um, is between the Elohim as the sort of spiritual beings and then sort of everything else of the created world, and so they wouldn't deny that God, that Yahweh is. The uncreated creator of all things, but they would say he's an uncreated Elohim and that there is a class of created Elohim. So I don't, I don't think you have to go too far down this road to see what this does. It puts God on the same level as his creatures in at least one way. Um, and I think we'll find out later, uh, as we talk through this, actually it does it in a couple ways that are really, uh, really can be problematic as we go. And so, uh, just let me be clear if all that, if all that Moffitt and Van Dorn were saying, if, if all they said was, um, we can use the word Elohim to describe any creature. Or God that doesn't have a body. Elohim is a synonym for the word spirit. Um, that wouldn't be the wisest way to speak, I don't think. It wouldn't be the, the most, um, felicitous or safe way to talk about the distinction. But it wouldn't be controversial. There'd be nothing wrong with that. It'd just be using a different word. It'd be like if I said, well, instead of the word spirit, I'm gonna use the word bibly bop, you know? So we have. We have God who is bibly bop, and we have the angels who is bibly bop, and humans are biblio bop. And also material, again, not the safest way to talk. There's no reason to use that alternative language when the Bible gives us perfectly legitimate language. Um, but it wouldn't be a problem. But Moffit and Van Dorn go. Way past this and maybe they don't realize it. I've asked them on Twitter, I asked them to clarify. I didn't get a response. So if they are hearing this, which maybe they will, maybe they won't. If they're hearing this, I would really love to get some clarification on some of these questions because I would love nothing more than to be able to say that this was all a big misunderstanding and that actually all they're saying is that there is this spiritual existence. That, um, we can put all things that are spirit without a body or spirit with a body. We can put all those in the same category and call that category Elohim. Again, I don't think that's safe, but if that's all they were doing, that would be fine. But we see in their episodes, and I'm gonna try to grab some quotes, um, from, from some of the articles I've written. But again, go read the articles because this goes way more in depth. It's got timestamps of it. It's got links to their episodes. Don't take my word for it. Go listen to their. Words and, and check, you know, check my math on this. But what they do is they actually start to, in, in an attempt to justify why it's okay to put God in the same category as his creatures. Um, and in at least one way, they start to make some weird statements that have a lot of systematic theology, um, implications that are, are just really, really risky. So, for example, one of the ways that they try to kind of explain this, I'm gonna pull, pull the article that I wrote up here. So, great podcasting. [00:19:34] Communicable vs. Incommunicable Attributes Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the ways they start to try to do this is again, they, they wanna say they use this distinction between incommunicable and communicable attributes, right? So in, in Christian theology, classically speaking, a communicable attribute of God is an attribute that he shares or could share with. A creature and primarily we're talking, you know, we're talking about attributes that he shares with his image bearers. So something like, um, love. Love is a communicable attribute. Our love is different than God's love, but when we say love, we're talking about the same basic category of things God loves differently than we do. But love and in a human sense, and love in a, in a divine sense, are still talking about the same thing. There's a point of contact there. Um, an incommunicable attribute would be something like, um, something like eternity. Right. Eternity is not just an extended infinite sequence of time. If it was, he could share that with us. Um, but eternity or infinity is an entirely different way of existing than a creature could ever, could ever exist in divine Simplicity is another example. Um, God could not make humans simple because simplicity entails all sorts of things like infinity. Um, eternality. Um, you know, omnipresence, omni, potent, all of these things are entailed by simplicity. So God could not make a creature infinite because in order for it to be infinite, it would have to be God. Uh, God could not make a creature simple, uh, in the, in the sense of no composition of parts. Uh, because that would mean that that creature is actually God and has no composer. So, so those would be the classic, uh, incommunicable attributes and omnipotence. Is considered, although it's a little bit weird, it sort of crosses the line in some ways. But omnipotence is considered. An incommunicable attribute. God cannot share his omnipotence with a creature because you can't have two omnipotence. Um, if you have two omnipotence, then those two omnipotence cancel each other out in some sense. If God, and, and, and he has a will, God wills one thing, and then I as a creature, if he shared his omnipotence with me, somehow willed a different thing, then we would no longer be, neither of us would be omnipotent. Where this goes sideways with Moffitt and Vandorn is rather than respect omnipotence as a an incommunicable attribute, they say that the attribute or the word Elohim denotes power or might, and that is a communicable attribute. So God does give us a certain level of power. He allows us a certain level of agency. He grants that to us. Again, I'm not even sure that we would call that an an. A communicable attribute. Um, but in a sense, I guess it is. And so they say here, um, Elohim does not mean omnipotent. It means power. It's not an incommunicable attribute. It's a communicable attribute that all kinds of entities could possess. So they're saying that the word, um, the word Elohim, uh, in the Bible denotes that a. A, an entity possesses a certain kind of power or acts in a certain role of executing a certain kind of power. And that doesn't mean omnipotence. It means it means potence. It means some sort of power. And so that that wielding power attribute that. Uh, being a, being that wields power, that attribute, whatever we want to call it, however we want to phrase it, that is a communicable attribute that God shares. He communicates that attribute to all other beings in the class of Elohim. Now, let's just back that up for a second. Um, this still would mean that God has to be the creator and they don't deny that, but it would still mean that God, prior to creation. Was an Elohim in a category of one, and then somehow he created a class and because he's extended. This attribute of wielding power, say power wielder, to try to make it actually more of an attribute. He's extended this attribute of power wielder to uncreate or to created angels, demons, human spirits, whatever other spiritual entities there might be. They would bring in things like principalities, powers, they have a whole, in other, other contexts, they'll talk about this whole different bifurcation of types of spiritual beings that I think is a little speculative, but not a big deal. He extends this power wielder attribute to these created categories. And instead of this now creating a separate category of power wields who are not God, it now is uh, he expands this category of one to now include all sorts of other things, which again, as you can, you can imagine, just runs into problems. And so the, again, this, this word Elohim appears over 2,600 times, and of these instances, 230 of them refer to the God of Israel. So the idea that that. This word is not used specifically as a reference to the God of Israel, or should not be thought of as uniquely titling or almost exclusively titling God. The God of Israel just doesn't really match the data, but it's also just really poor Exogenic method. So rather than take the predominant usage and look at the context. Understanding that the predominant usage is the predominant usage. Instead, we're gonna go back and say, well, these, these minority, these 300 or so cases outside, and not even all 300 of them are used the same way, but these 300 or so cases of them not referring to the God of Israel, we're gonna use that to redefine the word. Its entirety. It's just poor. It's just poor scholarship. It's overly speculative. Um, I haven't read much of. He's work on this in the primary sources. Um, I, I would venture a guess that Heiser makes a much more robust argument than this. And this is part of the problem. When you take an already speculative, already dangerous theology and you try to pop popularize it when you just don't have the same chops that he did, uh, you end up really making some crass, simplistic arguments that just make you look a little silly. To think we can take 200 or 2,600 instances and redefine 2 20, 300 of them. By the way, it's used 300 of the times Just doesn't make any sense. So it again, if, if all we are saying is that God is spiritual and angels are spiritual and so there is some point of affinity between the two, then that would be okay. That wouldn't be a problem. Again, there's some risk in using the word Elohim in that. Sort of placeholder, but, um, that would be a semantic discussion. What they're doing is far, far deeper and far more problematic than that. [00:26:30] Systematic Theology Concerns Tony Arsenal: And so the, the other thing they do, um, that I think is really dangerous, and I don't have all of the, I haven't finished this article yet, so I don't have all of the timestamps in front of me to, to, to get there, is in attempting to justify this Moffitt, uh, in, in one of the other episodes, he turns to the incarnation as a sort of model. And so he'll say that, you know, the son of God is divine, but he's also human. And the fact that he's human, uh, doesn't therefore mean he's not also uniquely the uncreated creator. I would assume everyone hearing this who listens to this show, uh, which has done many, many episodes on Christology, it's one of our pet projects, is just throwing their listening device across the room because what Moffitt seems to miss entirely is that Christ is not, the sun is not in the category of human. Uh, sort of in a simple sense, Christ is in the category of human because he assumes to himself a second created nature. So what, what the, the analogy he's trying to draw is if the sun can be human without ceasing to be the unique one, uncreated God, then so also can, the whole trinity, I guess, can also be Elohim without ceasing to be the one uncreated God. He even goes so far as to say that there is Uncreated Elohim, and then there is created Elohim, and they're all in the category of Elohim, but because there's this commonality, we should still consider that class. And he draws that distinction or he draws the implication that. Um, there's somehow uncreated humanity in Christ, which is a whole different ball of worms that we won't get into. But in, in drawing this analogy, he sort of shows that he really doesn't understand the hypostatic union. He doesn't understand the incarnation, or if he does, he's really making a poor comparison because in the hypostatic union it's not as though the son, uh, as divinity, the son, as the one uncreated. God simply adds to himself in a raw sense and merges. Uh, he doesn't become part of the category of human without taking on a second nature. And then now we are even getting into some inconsistencies. Is human an ontological category or is that a category of function? Are there other categories of function, uh, other creatures in existence that the category of function human might fit? So I think you can see that this just is not a self consistent. Um, a self-consistent system and it leads to all these weird implications. Um, you know, and then they'll even go on to talk about how the Son is the angel of the Lord. I'm not gonna get into a lot of it here, and I agree with that thesis that the, when we see the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, in the vast majority of cases, we're probably seeing a pre-incarnate appearance of, um, of the second person of the Trinity. They go so far as to say that this is actually a sort of. Incarnation or a sort of hypostatic union of the Elohim nature. So they, they, they draw this distinction, or they draw this parallel between created Elohim and Uncreated Elohim, and they, they argue again, I think implicitly, but in some instances it's almost, it's almost explicit that the son in, in being the angel of the Lord, takes on the uncreated or takes on the created Elohim nature. It's, it's really, um, it's really problematic. So now we have the son who is, uh, sort of hypostatic united to the unc, to the created Elohim nature, and then also is hypostatic united to the human nature. Um, it, it really just gets messy and it confuses categories in a way that is not helpful. And if I'm just being frank, a lot of the younger reformed guys. And when I say younger, I'm talking, maybe I'm projecting back to when I was a younger reform guy, um, I'm talking about people in their mid twenties to maybe early thirties, right? The, the people who were maybe the second or third generation of the young restless reform guys, they didn't necessarily learn, uh, ref young restless reform theology directly from RC Sproul. You know, they weren't the first generation. Um, and, and maybe their pastors weren't the first generation, but, but maybe their pastors were the second generation and now they're learning it from their pastors. So you might think of 'em as like the third generation, to be frank, they don't usually have a great grasp on some of these systematic theology categories as part of why. Jesse and I do this podcast, and part of why we cover the same topic over and over again, part of why we're gonna go through this parable series. But when we're done, we're probably gonna go back and start over with systematic theology. We're gonna go back, we're gonna go through another confession. That's why we spent, we spent like six years going through systematic theology. And almost immediately went back to the Scott's confession and did most of it all over again because these truths need to be taught again and again and again. This is part of what Jude is talking about when he says, we have to contend for the faith. It's not just fighting with people online. It's not just polemics or apologetics. It is reteaching and handing down the faith that was once delivered to the saints. Again, and this is perhaps, and this is the last point I'll make. This is perhaps the most. Telling a reason we should be weary and suspicious of this theology. Paul, in, uh, one of the letters to Timothy, second Timothy, maybe he says, follow the pattern of the sound words that you heard from me. He's not talking about the scriptures. He doesn't say follow the sound words that I'm writing to you. He's referring to a body of doctrine sometimes. The Bible calls it the faith, right? Jude says to contend for the faith. There's this body of doctrine that is the teaching of the apostles, and it is encapsulated in this sort of set pattern of words. Erin A is called it the rule of faith or the regular fide, right? This is where we get things like the Nicean Creed or the Hanian Creed. Why we have creeds and confessions is because we don't need to reinvent the wheel and rather than rely on the safe time-tested words and concepts that have been proven and validated, and attacked and defended and, and um, have been victorious for hundreds and thousands of years, rather than rely on those. Moffitt and Van Doran think it is smarter and safer to depart from the pattern of sound words rather than to keep the pattern of sound words because they think that they are able to look at the Bible the way basically no one ever has in the 2000 years of the church and find something they haven't. I don't wanna be too bombastic. Um, I don't, I don't know either of them. Well, um, from what I can tell, what I've heard of their professions of faith, uh, they're, they're Christian believers. They love the Lord and are very confused. But these teachings are pagan. This is, we're talking about returning to a world of, of populated by spiritual beings. And God is kind of just on the highest part of the totem pole, and maybe there's a firm line between his place on the totem pole and the, the next level down. Maybe there is, um, gets a little bit less firm of a line when we're talking about Jesus, right? So there's some potential Arian implications there that the son, uh, is not the highest deity he is. He's like the father in some ways, but he, you know, in his sort of original form is like creatures in other ways. Um, we're just returning to something that the early church fought hard to get rid of when they came out of their pagan culture. When we started to see Greeks convert to Christianity, they had to figure out how do we come out of our polytheistic culture, and this is where we get the best defenses of monotheism. Jewish Christians didn't have to argue for monotheism because all the Jewish Christians already were monotheists in a biblical sense. The Greek Christians had to fight this stuff. Justin Martyr had to fight this stuff. Athanasius and the Cappadocian fathers had to fight this stuff constantly pushing back against the background Greek culture. And Moffitt and Van Dorn wanna point to that and say, see, really, they're just Greeks in disguise and in the reality is Athanasius and the cap oceans, were fighting against the theology that is making a resurgence in this divine council theory. [00:34:55] Conclusion and Call to Action Tony Arsenal: So I think that's enough for now. Please. Again, I'm writing a long series on this. I don't know how long it's gonna take. I think it's gonna be probably 10 or 13, 10 to 13 articles. It's, it's gonna be a pretty extensive project. But go read them. Go look at them, listen to their episodes, read their articles, and then you compare that to the word of God, has what I said made more sense or does what they make more sense. So I'll leave you with that. The dog is losing her mind. And uh, with that honor, everyone love the brotherhood.

In this introductory episode to their new series on the Parables of Jesus, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound theological significance of Christ's parables. Far from being mere teaching tools to simplify complex ideas, parables serve a dual purpose in God's redemptive plan: revealing spiritual truth to those with "ears to hear" while concealing these same truths from those without spiritual illumination. This episode lays the groundwork for understanding how parables function as divine teaching devices that embody core Reformed doctrines like election and illumination. As the hosts prepare to journey through all the parables in the Gospels, they invite listeners to consider the blessing of being granted spiritual understanding and the privilege of receiving the "secrets of the kingdom" through Christ's distinctive teaching method. Key Takeaways Parables are more than illustrations—they are comparisons that reveal kingdom truths to those with spiritual ears to hear while concealing truth from those without spiritual illumination. Jesus intentionally taught in parables not to simplify his teaching but partly to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy about those who hear but do not understand, confirming the spiritual condition of his hearers. The ability to understand parables is itself evidence of God's sovereign grace and election, as Jesus states in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." Parables vary in form and function—some are clearly allegorical while others make a single point, requiring each to be approached on its own terms. Proper interpretation requires context—understanding both the original audience and the question or situation that prompted Jesus to use a particular parable. Parables function like Nathan's confrontation of David—they draw hearers in through narrative before revealing uncomfortable truths about themselves. Studying parables requires spiritual humility—recognizing that our understanding comes not from intellectual capacity but from the Spirit's illumination. Understanding Parables as Revelation, Not Just Illustration The hosts emphasize that parables are fundamentally different from mere illustrations or fables. While modern readers often assume Jesus used parables to simplify complex spiritual truths, the opposite is frequently true. As Tony explains, "A parable fundamentally is a comparison between two things... The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside." This distinction is crucial because it changes how we approach interpretation. Rather than breaking down each element as an allegorical component, we should first understand what reality Jesus is comparing the parable to. The parables function as a form of divine revelation—showing us kingdom realities through narrative comparison, but only those with spiritual insight can truly grasp their meaning. This is why Jesus quotes Isaiah and explains that he speaks in parables partly because "seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13). The Doctrine of Election Embedded in Parabolic Teaching Perhaps the most profound insight from this episode is how the very form of Jesus' teaching—not just its content—embodies the doctrine of election. Jesse notes that "every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election," because they reveal spiritual truth to some while concealing it from others. This isn't arbitrary but reflects spiritual realities. The hosts connect this to Jesus' words in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." This blessing comes not from intellectual capacity or moral superiority but from God's sovereign grace. Tony describes this as "the blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." The parables thus become a "microcosm" of Reformed doctrines like election, regeneration, and illumination. When believers understand Jesus' parables, they're experiencing the practical outworking of these doctrines in real time. Memorable Quotes "The parables are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit." - Tony Arsenal "Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him... And so this is like, I love the way that he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense." - Jesse Schwamb "But blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. There's a blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." - Tony Arsenal About the Hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb are the regular hosts of The Reformed Brotherhood podcast, where they explore Reformed theology and its application to Christian living. With a conversational style that balances depth and accessibility, they seek to make complex theological concepts understandable without sacrificing nuance or biblical fidelity. Transcript [00:00:45] Introduction and New Series Announcement [00:00:45] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 460 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. New series Time, new series. Time for the next seven years that, that's probably correct. It's gonna be a long one. New beginnings are so great, aren't they? And it is. [00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: We've been hopefully this, well, it's definitely gonna live up to all the hype that we've been presenting about this. It's gonna be good. Everybody's gonna love it. And like I said, it's a topic we haven't done before. It's certainly not in this format. [00:01:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, just, um, as a side note, if you are a listener, which you must be, if you're hearing this, uh, this is a great time to introduce someone to the podcast. [00:01:33] Tony Arsenal: True. Uh, one, because this series is gonna be lit as the kids say, and, uh, it's a new series, so you don't have to have any background. You don't have to have any previous knowledge of the show or of who these two weird guys are to jump in and we're gonna. [00:01:53] Tony Arsenal: Talk about the Bible, which is amazing and awesome. And who doesn't love to talk about the Bible. [00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's correct. That's what makes these so good. That's how I know, and I could say confidently that this is gonna be all the hype and more. All right, so before we get to affirmations and denials, all the good ProGo, that's part and parcel of our normal episode content. [00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: Do you want to tell everybody what we're gonna be talking about? [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'm excited. [00:02:17] Introducing the Parables Series [00:02:17] Tony Arsenal: So we are gonna work our way through, and this is why I say it's gonna take seven years. We are gonna work our way through all of the parables. Parables, [00:02:25] Jesse Schwamb: the [00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: gospels and just so, um, the Gospel of John doesn't feel left out. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna talk through some of the I am statements and some of that stuff when we get to John. 'cause John doesn't have a lot of parables. Uh, so we're gonna spend time in the synoptic gospels. We're gonna just walk through the parables one by one. We're taking an episode, sometimes maybe two, sometimes 10, depending on how long the parable is and how deep we get into it. [00:02:47] Tony Arsenal: We're just gonna work our way through. We're gonna take our time. We're gonna enjoy it. So again, this is a great time to start. It's kinda the ground floor on this and you thing. This could really be its own podcast all by itself, right? Uh, so invite a friend, invite some whole bunch of friends. Start a Sunday school class listening to this. [00:03:04] Tony Arsenal: No, don't do that. But people have done that before. But, uh, grab your bibles, get a decent commentary to help prep for the next episode, and, uh, let's, let's do it. I'm super excited. [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: When I say para, you say Abel Para, is that how it works? Para? Yeah. I don't know. You can't really divide it. Pairable. If you jam it together, yes. [00:03:24] Jesse Schwamb: You get some of that. You can say, when I say pair, you say Abel p [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: Abel. [00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: And you can expect a lot more of that in this series. But before we get into all this good juicy stuff about parables, and by the way, this is like an introductory episode, that doesn't mean that you can just skip it, doesn't mean it's not gonna be good. We gotta set some things up. We wanna talk about parables general generally, but before we have that good general conversation, let's get into our own tradition, which is either affirming with something or denying against something. [00:03:54] Affirmations and Denials [00:03:54] Jesse Schwamb: And so, Tony, what do you got for all of us? [00:03:58] Tony Arsenal: Mine is kind of a, an ecclesial, ecclesiastical denial. Mm-hmm. Um, this is sort of niche, but I feel like our audience may have heard about it. And there's this dust up that I, I noticed online, uh, really just this last week. Um, it's kind of a specific thing. There is a church, uh, I'm not sure where the church is. [00:04:18] Tony Arsenal: It's a PCA church, I believe it's called Mosaic. The pastor of the church, the teaching elder, one of the teaching elders just announced that he was, uh, leaving his ministry to, uh, join the Roman Catholic Church, which, yes, there's its own denial built into that. We are good old Protestant reformed folks, and I personally would, would stick with the original Westminster on the, the Pope being antichrist. [00:04:45] Tony Arsenal: But, um, that's not the denial. The denial is that in this particular church. For some unknown reason. Uh, the pastor who has now since a announced that he was leaving to, uh, to convert to Roman Catholicism, continued to preach the sermon and then administered the Lord's supper, even though he in the eyes, I think of most. [00:05:08] Tony Arsenal: Reformed folk and certainly historically in the eyes of the reformed position was basically apostate, uh, right in front of the congregation's eyes. Now, I don't know that I would necessarily put it that strongly. I think there are plenty of genuine born again Christians who find themselves in, in the Roman Catholic, uh, church. [00:05:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, but to allow someone who is one resigning the ministry right in front of your eyes. Um, and then resigning to basically leave for another tradition that, that the PCA would not recognize, would not share ecclesiastical, uh, credentials with or accept their ordination or any of those things. Um, to then just allow him to admit, you know, to administer the Lord's Supper, I think is just a drastic miscarriage of, uh, ecclesiastical justice. [00:05:54] Tony Arsenal: I dunno if that's the right word. So I'm just denying this like. It shows that on a couple things like this, this. Church this session, who obviously knew this was coming. Um, this session does either, does not take seriously the differences between Roman Catholic theology and Protestant theology, particularly reformed theology, or they don't take seriously the, the gravity of the Lord's supper and who should and shouldn't be administering it. [00:06:22] Tony Arsenal: They can't take both of those things seriously and have a fully or biblical position on it. So there's a good opportunity for us to think through our ecclesiology, to think through our sacrament and how this applies. It just really doesn't sit well and it's not sitting well with a lot of people online, obviously. [00:06:37] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I'm sure there'll be all sorts of, like letters of concern sent to presbytery and, and all that stuff, and, and it'll all shake out in the wash eventually, but just, it just wasn't good. Just doesn't sit right. [00:06:48] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me of all the denominations. I'm not saying this pejoratively. I just think it is kind of interesting and funny to me that the Presbyterians love a letter writing campaign. [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Like that's kind of the jam, the love, a good letter writing campaign. [00:07:00] Tony Arsenal: It's true, although it's, it's actually functional in Presbyterianism because That's right. That's how you voice your concern. It's not a, not a, a rage letter into the void. It actually goes somewhere and gets recorded and has to be addressed at presbytery if you have standing. [00:07:17] Tony Arsenal: So there's, there's a good reason to do that, and I'm sure that that will be done. I'm sure there are many. Probably ministers in the PCA who are aware of this, who are either actually considering filing charges or um, or writing such letters of complaints. And there's all sorts of mechanisms in the PCA to, to adjudicate and resolve and to investigate these kinds of things. [00:07:37] Jesse Schwamb: And I'd like to, if you're, if you're a true Presbyterian and, and in this instance, I'm not making light of this instance, but this instance are others, you. Feel compelled by a strong conviction to write such a letter that really you should do it with a quill, an ink. Like that's the ultimate way. I think handwritten with like a nice fountain pen. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: There's not, yeah. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like that's, that is a weighty letter right there. Like it's cut to Paul being like, I write this postscript in my own hand with these big letters. Yeah, it's like, you know, some original Presbyterian letter writing right there. [00:08:07] Tony Arsenal: And then you gotta seal it with wax with your signe ring. [00:08:10] Tony Arsenal: So, and send it by a carrier, by a messenger series of me messengers. [00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Think if you receive any letter in the mail, handwritten to you. Like for real, somebody painstakingly going through in script like spencerian script, you know, if you're using English characters writing up and then sealing that bad boy with wax, you're gonna be like, this is important. [00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, this, even if it's just like, Hey, what's up? Yeah, you're gonna be like, look at this incredible, weighty document I've received. [00:08:36] Tony Arsenal: It's true. It's very true. I love it. Well, that's all I have to say about that to channel a little Forrest Gump there. Uh, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'm also going to deny against, so this denial is like classic. [00:08:49] Jesse Schwamb: It's routine, but I got a different spin on it this time, so I'm denying against. The full corruption of sin, how it appears everywhere, how even unbelievers speak of it, almost unwittingly, but very commonly with great acceptance. And the particularity of this denial comes in the form of allergies, which you and I are talking about a lot of times. [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: But I was just thinking about this week because I had to do some allergy testing, which is a, a super fun experience. But it just got me think again, like very plainly about what allergies are. And how an allergy occurs when your immune system, like the part of your body responsible for protecting your body that God has made when your immune system mistakes like a non-harmful substance like pollen or a food or some kind of animal dander for a threat, and then reacts by producing these antibodies like primarily the immunoglobulin E. [00:09:36] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what strikes me as so funny about this in a, in a way that we must laugh. Because of our, our parents, our first parents who made a horrible decision and we like them, would make the same decision every day and twice in the Lord's day. And that is that this seems like, of course, such a clear sign of the corruption of sin impounded in our created order because it seems a really distasteful and suboptimal for human beings to have this kind of response to pollen. [00:10:03] Jesse Schwamb: When they were intended to work and care in a garden. So obviously I think we can say, Hey, like the fact that allergies exist and that it's your body making a mistake. [00:10:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:10:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's like the ultimate, like cellular level of the ubiquity of sin. And so as I was speaking with my doctor and going through the, the testing, it's just so funny how like we all talk about this. [00:10:25] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, yeah, it's, it's a really over-indexed reaction. It doesn't make any sense. It's not the way the world is supposed to be, but nobody's saying how is the world supposed to be? Do you know what I mean? Like, but we just take it for granted that that kind of inflammation that comes from like your dog or like these particles in the air of plants, just trying to do a plant stew and reproduce and pollinate that, that could cause like really dramatic and debilitating. [00:10:49] Jesse Schwamb: Responses is just exceptional to me, and I think it's exceptional and exceptional to all of us because at some deep level we recognize that, as Paul says, like the earth, the entire world is groaning. It's groaning for that eschatological release and redemption that can only come from Christ. And our runny noses in our hay fever all prove that to some degree. [00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So denying against allergies, but denying against as well that ubiquity of corruption and sin in our world. [00:11:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just have this image in my head of Adam and Eve, you know, they're expelled outta the garden and they, they're working the ground. And then Adam sneezes. Yes. And Eve is like, did your head just explode? [00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: And he's like, I don't know. That would've been a, probably a pretty terrifying experience actually. [00:11:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's that's true. So imagine like you and I have talked about this before, because you have young children, adorable. Young children, and we've talked about like the first of everything, like when you're a child, you get sick for the first time, or you get the flu or you vomit for the first time. [00:11:45] Jesse Schwamb: Like you have no idea what's going on in your body, but imagine that. But being an adult. [00:11:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, where you can process what's going on, but don't have a framework for it. [00:11:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly. So like [00:11:54] Tony Arsenal: that's like, that's like my worst nightmare I think. [00:11:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's like, to your point, 'cause there, there are a lot of experiences you have as an adults, even health wise that are still super strange and weird. [00:12:01] Jesse Schwamb: But [00:12:02] Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:12:02] Jesse Schwamb: you have some rubric for them, but that's kind of exactly what I was thinking. What if this toiling over your labor is partly because it's horrible now because you have itchy, watery eyes or you get hives. Yeah. And before you were like, I could just lay in the grass and be totally fine. And now I can't even walk by ragweed without getting a headache or having some kind of weird fatigue. [00:12:23] Jesse Schwamb: Like I have to believe that that was, that part of this transition was all of these things. Like, now your body's gonna overreact to stuff where I, I, God put us in a place where that wouldn't be the case at all. [00:12:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Sometimes I think about like the first. Time that Adam was like sore or like hurt himself. [00:12:42] Tony Arsenal: True. Like the, just the, just the terror and fear that must have come with it. And sin is serious stuff. Like it's serious effects and sad, sad, sad stuff. But yeah, allergies are the worst. I, uh, I suffered really badly with, uh, seasonal allergies. When I was a a kid I had to do allergy shots and everything and it's makes no sense. [00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: There's no rhyme or reason to it, and your allergies change. So like you could be going your whole life, being able to eat strawberries and then all of a sudden you can't. Right? And it's, and you don't know until it happens. So [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: what's up with that? [00:13:15] Tony Arsenal: No good. [00:13:16] Jesse Schwamb: What's up with that? So again, imagine that little experience is a microcosmic example of what happens to Adam and Eve. [00:13:24] Jesse Schwamb: You know, like all these things change. Like you're, you're right. Suddenly your body isn't the same. It's not just because you're growing older, but because guess what? Sins everywhere. And guess what, where sin is, even in the midst of who you are as physically constructed and the environment in which you live, all, all totally change. [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: So that, that's enough of my rants on allergies. I know the, I know the loved ones out there hear me. It's also remarkable to me that almost everybody has an allergy of some kind. It's very, it's very rare if you don't have any allergies whatsoever. And probably those times when you think you're sick and you don't have allergies could be that you actually have them. [00:13:57] Jesse Schwamb: So it's just wild. Wild. [00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Agreed. Agreed. [00:14:03] Theological Discussion on Parables [00:14:03] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, without further ado, I'm not, I, maybe we should have further ado, but let's get into it. Let's talk about some parable stuff. [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, let's do it again. When I say pair, you say able pair. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Able. [00:14:20] Jesse Schwamb: When I say [00:14:21] Tony Arsenal: para you say bowl. [00:14:24] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I was trying to go with before. [00:14:26] Jesse Schwamb: It's a little bit more, yeah, but you gotta like cross over like we both gotta say like that middle syllable kind of. Otherwise it's, it sounds like I'm just saying bowl. And [00:14:34] Tony Arsenal: yeah, there's no good way to chant that. Yeah, we're work. This is why Jesse and I are not cheerleaders. [00:14:39] Jesse Schwamb: We're, we're work shopping everybody. [00:14:40] Jesse Schwamb: But I agree with you. Enough of us talking about affirmations, the denials in this case, the double double denial. Let's talk about parables. So the beauty of this whole series is there's gonna be so much great stuff to talk about, and I think this is a decent topic for us to cover because. Really, if you think about it, the parables of Jesus have captivated people for the entirety of the scriptures. [00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: As long, as long as they were recorded and have been read and processed and studied together. And, uh, you know, there's stuff I'm sure that we will just gloss over. We don't need to get into in terms of like, is it pure allegory? Is it always allegory? Is it, there's lots of interpretation here. I think this is gonna be our way of processing together and moving through some of these and speaking them out and trying to learn principally. [00:15:28] Jesse Schwamb: Predominantly what they're teaching us. But I say all that because characters like the prodigal son, like Good Samaritan, Pharisees, and tax collector, those actually have become well known even outside the church. [00:15:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: then sometimes inside the church there's over familiarity with all of these, and that leads to its own kind of misunderstanding. [00:15:46] Jesse Schwamb: So, and I think as well. I'm hoping that myself, you and our listeners will be able to hear them in a new way, and maybe if we can try to do this without again, being parabolic, is that we can kind of recreate some of the trauma. In these stories. 'cause Jesus is, is pressing upon very certain things and there's certainly a lot of trauma that his original audiences would've taken away from what he was saying here. [00:16:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Even just starting with what is a parable and why is Jesus telling them? So I presume that's actually the best place for us to begin is what's the deal with the parables and why is this? Is this Jesus preferred way of teaching about the kingdom of God. [00:16:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think, you know, it bears saying too that like not all the parables are alike. [00:16:35] Tony Arsenal: Like true. We can't, this is why I'm excited about this series. You know, it's always good to talk through the bible and, and or to talk through systematic theology, but what really excites me is when we do a series like this, kind of like the Scott's Confession series, like it gives us a reason. To think through a lot of different disciplines and flex like exercise and stretch and flex a lot of different kinds of intellectual muscles. [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: So there's gonna be some exegetical work we have to do. There's gonna be some hermeneutical work we're gonna have to do, probably have to do some historical work about how the parables have been interpreted in different ways. Yes, and and I think, so, I think it's important to say like, not every parable is exactly the same. [00:17:14] Tony Arsenal: And this is where I think like when you read, sometimes you read books about the, the parables of Christ. Like you, you'll hear one guy say. Well, a parable is not an allegory. Then you'll hear another guy say like, well, parables might have allegorical elements to it. Right. Now if one guy say like, well, a parable has one main point, and you'll have another guy say like, well, no, actually, like parables can have multiple points and multiple shades of meaning. [00:17:37] Tony Arsenal: And I think the answer to why you have this variance in the commentaries is 'cause sometimes the parables are alleg. [00:17:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And [00:17:44] Tony Arsenal: sometimes they're not allegorical. Sometimes they have one main point. Sometimes there's multiple points. So I think it's important for us to just acknowledge like we're gonna have to come to each parable, um, on its own and on its own terms. [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: But there are some general principles that I think we can talk about what parables are. So parables in general are. Figurative stories or figurative accounts that are used to illustrate, I think primarily used to illustrate a single main point. And there may be some subpoints, but they, they're generally intended to, uh, to illustrate something by way of a, of a narrative, a fictional narrative that, uh, helps the reader. [00:18:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, or the hearer is just, it's also important that these were primarily heard, these are heard parables, so there are even times where the phrasing of the language is important in the parable. Um, they're helping the, the hearer to understand spiritual truth. And this is where I think it's it's key, is that this is not just. [00:18:48] Tony Arsenal: When we're talking about the parables of Christ, right? There's people tell parables, there's all sorts of different teachers that have used parables. Um, I, I do parables on the show from time to time where I'll tell like a little made up story about a, you know, a situation. I'll say like, pretend, you know, let's imagine you have this guy and he's doing this thing that's a form of a parable when I'm using. [00:19:08] Tony Arsenal: I'm not, it's not like a makeup made up story. It's not asaps fables. We're not talking about like talking foxes and hens and stuff, but it's illustrating a point. But the parables of Christ are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit. [00:19:29] Tony Arsenal: And I just wanna read this. Uh, this is just God's providence, um, in action. I, um, I've fallen behind on my reading in The Daily Dad, which is a Ryan Holiday book. This was the reading that came up today, even though it's not the correct reading for the day. Uh, it's, it's for September 2nd. We're recording this on September, uh, sixth. [00:19:48] Tony Arsenal: Uh, and the title is, this is How You Teach Them. And the first line says, if the Bible has any indication, Jesus rarely seemed to come out and say what he meant. He preferred instead to employ parables and stories and little anecdotes that make you think. He tells stories of the servants and the talents. [00:20:03] Tony Arsenal: He tells stories of the prodigal son and the Good Samaritan. Turns out it's pretty effective to get a point across and make it stick. What what we're gonna learn. Actually that Jesus tells these stories in parables, in part to teach those who have spiritual ears to hear, but in part to mask the truth That's right. [00:20:24] Tony Arsenal: From those who don't have spiritual ears to hear, oh, online [00:20:26] Jesse Schwamb: holiday. [00:20:27] Tony Arsenal: So it's not as simple as like Jesus, using illustration to help make something complicated, clearer, right? Yes. But also, no. So I'm super excited to kind of get into this stuff and talk through it and to, to really dig into the parables themselves. [00:20:42] Tony Arsenal: It's just gonna be a really good exercise at sort of sitting at the feet of our master in his really, his preferred mode of teaching. Um, you know, other than the sermon on the Mount. There's not a lot of like long form, straightforward, didactic teaching like that most of Christ's teaching as recorded in the gospels, comes in the form of these parables in one way or another. [00:21:03] Tony Arsenal: Right. And that's pretty exciting to me. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And there's so many more parables I think, than we often understand there to be, or at least then that we see in like the headings are Bible, which of course have been put there by our own construction. So anytime you get that. Nice short, metaphorical narrative is really Jesus speaking in a kind of parable form, and I think you're right on. [00:21:25] Jesse Schwamb: For me, it's always highlighting some kind of aspect of the kingdom of God. And I'd say there is generally a hierarchy. There doesn't have to be like a single point, like you said. There could be other points around that. But if you get into this place where like everything has some kind of allegory representation, then the parable seems to die of the death of like a million paper cuts, right? [00:21:40] Jesse Schwamb: Because you're trying to figure out all the things and if you have to represent something, everything he says with some kind of. Heavy spiritual principle gets kind of weird very quickly. But in each of these, as you said, what's common in my understanding is it's presenting like a series of events involving like a small number of characters. [00:21:57] Jesse Schwamb: It is bite-sized and sometimes those are people or plants or even like inanimate objects. So like the, yeah, like you said, the breadth and scope of how Jesus uses the metaphor is brilliant teaching, and it's even more brilliant when you get to that level, like you're saying, where it's meant both to illuminate. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: To obfuscate. That is like, to me, the parable is a manifestation of election because it's clear that Jesus is using this. Those who have the ears to hear are the ones whom the Holy Spirit has unstopped, has opened the eyes, has illuminated the hearts and the mind to such a degree that can receive these, and that now these words are resonant. [00:22:32] Jesse Schwamb: So like what a blessing that we can understand them, that God has essentially. Use this parabolic teaching in such a way to bring forward his concept of election in the minds and the hearts of those who are his children. And it's kind of a way, this is kind of like the secret Christian handshake. It's the speakeasy of salvation. [00:22:52] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's coming into the fold because God has invited you in and given you. The knowledge and ability of which to really understand these things. And so most of these little characters seemed realistic and resonant in Jesus' world, and that's why sometimes we do need a little bit of studying and understanding the proper context for all those things. [00:23:12] Jesse Schwamb: I would say as well, like at least one element in those parables is a push. It's in, it's kind of taking it and hyping it up. It's pushing the boundaries of what's plausible, and so you'll find that all of this is made again to illuminate some principle of the kingdom of God. And we should probably go to the thing that you intimated, because when you read that quote from, from Ryan Holiday, I was like, yes, my man. [00:23:34] Jesse Schwamb: Like he's on the right track. Right? There's something about what he's saying that is partially correct, but like you said, a lot of times people mistake the fact that, well, Jesus. Is using this language and these metaphors, these similes, he speaks in parables because they were the best way to get like these uneducated people to understand him. [00:23:57] Jesse Schwamb: Right? But it's actually the exact opposite. And we know this because of perhaps the most famous dialogue and expression and explanation of parables, which comes to us in Matthew 13, 10 through 17, where Jesus explains to his disciples exactly why he uses this mode of teaching. And what he says is. This is why I speak to them of parables because seeing they do not see and hearing, they do not hear they nor do they understand. [00:24:24] Jesse Schwamb: So, so that's perplexing. We should probably camp there for just a second and talk about that. Right, and, and like really unpack like, what is Jesus after here? Then if, like, before we get into like, what do all these things mean, it's almost like saying. We need to understand why they're even set before us and why these in some ways are like a kind of a small stumbling block to others, but then this great stone of appreciation and one to stand on for for others. [00:24:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think you know, before we, before we cover that, which I think is a good next spot. A parable is not just an illustration. Like I think that's where a lot of people go a little bit sideways, is they think that this is effectively, like it's a fable. It's like a made up story primarily to like illustrate a point right. [00:25:09] Tony Arsenal: Or an allegory where you know, you're taking individual components and they represent something else. A parable fundamentally is a, is a, a comparison between two things, right? The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside, and so the idea is like you're, you're taking. The reality that you're trying to articulate and you're setting up this parable next to it and you're comparing them to it. [00:25:33] Tony Arsenal: And so I like to use the word simile, like that's why Christ says like the kingdom of God is like this. Yes. It's not like I'm gonna explain the kingdom of God to you by using this made up story. Right on. It's I'm gonna compare the kingdom of God to this thing or this story that I'm having, and so we should be. [00:25:49] Tony Arsenal: Rather than trying to like find the principles of the parable, we should be looking at it and going, how does this parable reflect? Or how is this a, um, how is this an explanation? Not in the, like, I, I'm struggling to even explain this here. It's not that the cer, the parable is just illustrating a principle. [00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: It's that the kingdom of God is one thing and the parable reveals that same one thing by way of comparison. Yes. So like. Uh, we'll get into the specifics, obviously, but when the, when the, um, lawyer says, who is my neighbor? Well, it's not just like, well, let's look at the Good Samaritan. And the Good Samaritan represents this, and the Levite represents this, and the priest represents this. [00:26:32] Tony Arsenal: It's a good neighbor, is this thing. It's this story. Compared to whatever you have in your mind of what a good neighbor is. And we're gonna bounce those things up against each other, and that's gonna somehow show us what the, what the reality is. And that's why I think to get back to where we were, that's why I think sometimes the parables actually obscure the truth. [00:26:53] Tony Arsenal: Because if we're not comparing the parable to the reality of something, then we're gonna get the parable wrong. So if we think that, um, the Good Samaritan. Is a parable about social justice and we're, we're looking at it to try to understand how do we treat, you know, the, the poor people in Africa who don't have food or the war torn refugees, you know, coming out of Ukraine. [00:27:19] Tony Arsenal: If we're looking at it primarily as like, I need to learn to be a good neighbor to those who are destitute. Uh, we're not comparing it against what Jesus was comparing it against, right? So, so we have to understand, we have to start in a lot of cases with the question that the parable is a response to, which oftentimes the parable is a response to a question or it's a, it's a principle that's being, um, compare it against if we get that first step wrong, uh, or if we start with our own presuppositions, which is why. [00:27:50] Tony Arsenal: Partially why I think Christ is saying like, the only those who have ears to hear. Like if you don't have a spiritual presupposition, I, I mean that, that might not be the right word, but like if you're not starting from the place of spiritual illumination, not in the weird gnostic sense, but in the, the. [00:28:07] Tony Arsenal: Genuinely Christian illumination of the Holy Spirit and inward testimony of the Holy Spirit. If you're not starting from that perspective, you almost can't get the parables right. So that's why we see like the opponents of Christ in the Bible, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, constantly. They're constantly confused and they're getting it wrong. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: And, and even sometimes the disciples, they have to go and ask sometimes too, what is this parable? Wow, that's right. What is, what does this mean? So it's never as simple as, as what's directly on the surface, but it's also not usually as complicated as we would make it be if we were trying to over-interpret the parable, which I think is another risk. [00:28:44] Jesse Schwamb: That's the genius, isn't it? Is that I I like what you're saying. It's that spiritual predisposition that allows us to receive the word and, and when we receive that word, it is a simple word. It's not as if like, we have to elevate ourselves in place of this high learning or education or philosophizing, and that's the beauty of it. [00:29:03] Jesse Schwamb: So it is, again, God's setting apart for himself A, a people a teaching. So. But I think this is, it is a little bit perplexing at first, like that statement from Jesus because it's a bit like somebody coming to you, like your place of work or anywhere else in your family life and asking you explicitly for instruction and, and then you saying something like, listen, I, I'm gonna show you, but you're not gonna be able to see it. [00:29:22] Jesse Schwamb: And you're gonna, I'm gonna tell you, but you're not gonna be able to hear it, and I'm gonna explain it to you, but you're not gonna be able to understand. And you're like, okay. So yeah, what's the point of you talking to me then? So it's clear, like you said that Jesus. Is teaching that the secrets, and that's really, really what these are. [00:29:37] The Secrets of the Kingdom of God [00:29:37] Jesse Schwamb: It's brilliant and beautiful that Jesus would, that the, the son of God and God himself would tell us the secrets of his kingdom. But that again, first of all by saying it's a secret, means it's, it's for somebody to guard and to hold knowledge closely and that it is protected. So he says, teaching like the secrets of the kingdom of God are unknowable through mere human reasoning and intuition. [00:29:56] Jesse Schwamb: Interestingly here though, Jesus is also saying that. He's, it's not like he's saying no one can ever understand the parables, right, or that he intends to hide their truth from all people. [00:30:07] Understanding Parables and God's Sovereign Grace [00:30:07] Jesse Schwamb: Instead, he just explains that in order to highlight God's sovereign grace, God in his mercy has enlightened some to whom it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven. [00:30:17] Jesse Schwamb: That's verse 11. So. All of us as his children who have been illuminated can understand the truth of God's kingdom. That is wild and and that is amazing. So that this knowledge goes out and just like we talk about the scripture going out and never returning void, here's a prime example of that very thing that there is a condemnation and not being able to understand. [00:30:37] Jesse Schwamb: That condemnation comes not because you're not intelligent enough, but because as you said, you do not have that predisposition. You do not have that changed heart into the ability to understand these things. [00:30:47] Doctrine of Election and Spiritual Insight [00:30:47] Jesse Schwamb: This is what leads me here to say like every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election. [00:30:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, because all people are outside the kingdom until they enter the Lord's teaching. How do we enter the Lord's teaching by being given ears to hear. How are we understanding that? We have been given ears to hear when these parables speak to us in the spiritual reality as well as in just like you said, like this general kind of like in the way that I presume Ryan Holiday means it. [00:31:12] Jesse Schwamb: The, this is like, he might be exemplifying the fact that these stories. Are a really great form of the ability to communicate complex information or to make you think. [00:31:21] The Power and Purpose of Parables [00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: So when Jesus says something like The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, wow, we, you and I will probably spend like two episodes just unpacking that, or we could spend a lot more, that's beautiful that that's how his teaching takes place. [00:31:34] Jesse Schwamb: But of course it's, it's so much. More than that, that those in whom the teaching is effective on a salvation somehow understand it, and their understanding of it becomes first because Christ is implanted within them. Salvation. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:48] Parables as More Than Simple Teaching Tools [00:31:48] Tony Arsenal: I think people, and this is what I think like Ryan Holiday's statement reflects, is people think of the parables as a simple teaching tool to break down a complicated subject. [00:32:00] Tony Arsenal: Yes. And so, like if I was trying to explain podcasting to a, like a five-year-old, I would say something like, well, you know. You know how your teacher teaches you during class while a podcast is like if your teacher lived on the internet and you could access your teacher anytime. Like, that might be a weird explanation, but like that's taking a very complicated thing about recording and and RSS feeds and you know, all of these different elements that go into what podcasting is and breaking it down to a simple sub that is not what a parable is. [00:32:30] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. A parable is not. Just breaking a simple subject down and illustrating it by way of like a, a clever comparison. Um, you know, it's not like someone trying to explain the doctrine of, of the Trinity by using clever analogies or something like that. Even if that were reasonable and impossible. [00:32:50] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's not like that a parable. I like what you're saying about it being kind of like a mini doctrine of election. It's also a mini doctrine of the Bible. Yes. Right. It, it's right on. [00:33:00] The Doctrine of Illumination [00:33:00] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's the doctrine of revelation. In. Preached form in the Ministry of Christ, right? As Christians, we have this text and we affirm that at the same time, uh, what can be known of it and what is necessary for salvation can be known. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: By ordinary means like Bart Iman, an avowed atheist who I, I think like all atheists, whether they recognize it or not, hates God. He can read the Bible and understand that what it means is that if you trust Jesus, you'll be saved. You don't need special spiritual insight to understand that that is what the Bible teaches, where the special spiritual. [00:33:42] Tony Arsenal: Insight might not be the right word, but the special spiritual appropriation is that the spirit enables you to receive that unto your salvation. Right? To put your trust in. The reality of that, and we call that doctrine, the doctrine of illumination. And so in, in the sense of parables in Christ's ministry, and this is, this is if you, you know, like what do I always say is just read a little bit more, um, the portion Jesse read it leads way into this prophecy or in this comment, Christ. [00:34:10] Tony Arsenal: Saying he teaches in parable in order to fulfill this prophecy of Isaiah. Basically that like those who are, uh, ate and are apart from God and are resistant to God, these parables there are there in order to confirm that they are. And then it says in verse 16, and this is, this is. [00:34:27] The Blessing of Spiritual Understanding [00:34:27] Tony Arsenal: It always seems like the series that we do ends up with like a theme verse, and this is probably the one verse 16 here, Matthew 1316 says, but blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. [00:34:40] Tony Arsenal: And so like there's a blessing. In our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and re receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation. That is the doctrine of of election. It's also the doctrine of regeneration, the doctrine of sanctification, the doctrine. [00:35:03] Tony Arsenal: I mean, there's all of these different classic reformed doctrines that the parables really are these mic this microcosm of that. Almost like applied in the Ministry of Christ. Right. Which I, I, you know, I've, I've never really thought of it in depth in that way before, but it's absolutely true and it's super exciting to be able to sort of embark on this, uh, on this series journey with, with this group. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: I think it's gonna be so good to just dig into these and really, really hear the gospel preached to ourselves through these parables. That's what I'm looking forward to. [00:35:38] Jesse Schwamb: And we're used to being very. Close with the idea that like the message contains the doctrine, the message contains the power. Here we're saying, I think it's both. [00:35:47] Jesse Schwamb: And the mode of that message also contains, the doctrine also contains the power. And I like where you're going with this because I think what we should be reminding ourselves. Is what a blessing it is to have this kind of information conferred to us. [00:36:01] The Role of Parables in Revealing and Concealing Truth [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: That again, God has taken, what is the secrets that is his to disclose and his to keep and his to hold, and he's made it available to his children. [00:36:08] Jesse Schwamb: And part of that is for, as you said, like the strengthening of our own faith. It's also for condemnation. So notice that. The hiding of the kingdom through parables is not a consequence of the teaching itself. Again, this goes back to like the mode being as equally important here as the message itself that Christ's teaching is not too difficult to comprehend as an intellectual matter. [00:36:27] Jesse Schwamb: The thing is, like even today, many unbelievers read the gospels and they technically understand what Jesus means in his teaching, especially these parables. The problem is. I would say like moral hardness. It's that lack of spiritual predilection or predisposition. They know what Jesus teaches, but they do not believe. [00:36:47] Jesse Schwamb: And so the challenge before us is as all scripture reading, that we would go before the Holy Spirit and say, holy Spirit, help me to believe. Help me to understand what to believe. And it so doing, do the work of God, which is to believe in him and to believe in His son Jesus Christ and what he's accomplished. [00:37:02] Jesse Schwamb: So the parables are not like creating. Fresh unbelief and sinners instead, like they're confirming the opposition that's already present and apart from Grace, unregenerate perversely use our Lord's teaching to increase their resistance. That's how it's set up. That's how it works. That's why to be on the inside, as it were, not again, because like we've done the right handshake or met all the right standards, but because of the blood of Christ means that the disciples, the first disciples and all the disciples who will follow after them on the other hand. [00:37:33] The Complexity and Nuances of Parables [00:37:33] Jesse Schwamb: We've been granted these eyes to see, and ears to hear Jesus. And then we've been given the secrets of the kingdom. I mean, that's literally what we've been given. And God's mercy has been extended to the disciples who like many in the crowds, once ignorantly and stubbornly rejected God and us just like them as well in both accounts. [00:37:49] Jesse Schwamb: So this is, I think we need to settle on that. You're right, throughout this series, what a blessing. It's not meant to be a great labor or an effort for the child of God. Instead, it's meant to be a way of exploring these fe. Fantastic truths of who God is and what he's done in such a way that draw us in. [00:38:07] Jesse Schwamb: So that whether we're analyzing again, like the the lost coin or the lost sheep, or. Any number of these amazing parables, you'll notice that they draw us in because they don't give us answers in the explicit sense that we're used to. Like didactically instead. Yeah. They cause us to consider, as you've already said, Tony, like what does it mean to be lost? [00:38:26] Jesse Schwamb: What does it mean that the father comes running for this prodigal son? What does it mean that the older brother has a beef with the whole situation? What does it mean when Jesus says that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed? How much do we know about mustard seeds? And why would he say that? Again, this is a kind of interesting teaching, but that illumination in the midst of it being, I don't wanna say ambiguous, but open-ended to a degree means that the Holy Spirit must come in and give us that kind of grand knowledge. [00:38:55] Jesse Schwamb: But more than that, believe upon what Jesus is saying. I think that's the critical thing, is somebody will say, well, aren't the teaching simple and therefore easy to understand. In a sense, yes. Like factually yes, but in a much greater sense. Absolutely not. And that's why I think it's so beautiful that he quotes Isaiah there because in that original context, you the, you know, you have God delivering a message through Isaiah. [00:39:17] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. The people are very clear. Like, we just don't believe you're a prophet of God. And like what you're saying is ridiculous, right? And we just don't wanna hear you. This is very different than that. This is, Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him, not necessarily hear, but all, all who are hear Him, I guess rather, but not necessarily all who are listening with those spiritual ears. [00:39:33] Jesse Schwamb: And so this is like, I love the way that he, he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here. Because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense. [00:39:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, I'm going to be speaking to you in code and half of you have the key for all the code because the Holy Spirit is your cipher and half of you don't. And you're gonna, you're gonna listen to the same thing, but you will hear very different things. [00:40:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the other thing I think is, is interesting to ponder on this, um. [00:40:12] The Importance of Context in Interpreting Parables [00:40:12] Tony Arsenal: God always accommodates his revelation to his people. And the parables are, are, are like the. Accommodated accommodation. Yeah. Like God accommodates himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. And in some ways this is, this is, um, the human ministry of Christ is him accommodating himself to those. [00:40:38] Tony Arsenal: What I mean is in the human ministry of the Son, the parables are a way of the son accommodating himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. So there, there are instances. Where the parable is said, and it is, uh, it's seems to be more or less understood by everybody. Nobody asks the question about like, what does this mean? [00:40:57] Tony Arsenal: Right? And then there are instances where the parable is said, and even the apostles are, or the disciples are like, what does this parable mean? And then there's some interesting ones where like. Christ's enemies understand the parable and, and can understand that the parable is told against them. About them. [00:41:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So there, there's all these different nuances to why Christ used these parables, how simple they were, how complicated they were. Yes. And again, I think that underscores what I said at the top of the show here. It's like you can't treat every parable exactly the same. And that's where you run into trouble. [00:41:28] Tony Arsenal: Like if you're, if you're coming at them, like they're all just simple allegory. Again, like some of them have allegorical elements. I think it's fair to look at the, the prodigal son or the, the prodigal father, however you want to title that. And remember, the titles are not, generally, the titles are not, um, baked into the text itself. [00:41:46] Tony Arsenal: I think it's fair to come to that and look at and go, okay, well, who's the father in this? Who's the son? You know, what does it mean that the older son is this? Is, is there relevance to the fact that there's a party and that the, you know, the older, older, uh, son is not a part of it? There's, there's some legitimacy to that. [00:42:02] Tony Arsenal: And when we look at Christ's own explanation of some of his parables, he uses those kinds, right? The, the good seed is this, the, the seed that fell on the, the side of the road is this, right? The seed that got choked out by the, the, um, thorns is this, but then there are others where it doesn't make sense to pull it apart, element by element. [00:42:21] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the other thing is there are some things that we're gonna look at that are, um. We're gonna treat as parables that the text doesn't call a parable. And then there are some that you might even look at that sometimes the text calls a parable that we might not even think of as a normal parable, right? [00:42:38] Tony Arsenal: So there's lots of elements. This is gonna be really fun to just dig stuff in and, and sort of pick it, like pull it apart and look at its component parts and constituent parts. Um, so I really do mean it if you, if you're the kind of person who has never picked up a Bible commentary. This would be a good time to, to start because these can get difficult. [00:42:59] Tony Arsenal: They can get complicated. You want to have a trusted guide, and Jesse and I are gonna do our, our work and our research on this. Um, but you want someone who's more of a trusted guide than us. This is gonna be the one time that I might actually say Calvin's commentaries are not the most helpful. And the reason for that is not because Calvin's not clear on this stuff. [00:43:17] Tony Arsenal: Calvin Calvin's commentaries on the gospel is, is a harmony of the gospels, right? So sometimes it's tricky when you're reading it to try to find like a specific, uh, passage in Matthew because you're, you, everything's interwoven. So something like Matthew Henry, um, or something like, um, Matthew Poole. Uh, might be helpful if you're willing to spend a little bit of money. [00:43:38] Tony Arsenal: The ESV expository commentary that I've referenced before is a good option. Um, but try to find something that's approachable and usable that is reasonable for you to work through the commentary alongside of us, because you are gonna want to spend time reading these on your own, and you're gonna want to, like I said, you're gonna want to have a trust guide with you. [00:43:55] Tony Arsenal: Even just a good study bible, something like. The Reformation Study Bible or something along those lines would help you work your way through these parables, and I think it's valuable to do that. [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: Something you just said sparked this idea in me that the power, or one of the powers maybe of good fiction is that it grabs your attention. [00:44:15] The Impact of Parables on Listeners [00:44:15] Jesse Schwamb: It like brings you into the plot maybe even more than just what I said before about it being resonant, that it actually pulls you into the storyline and it makes you think that it's about other people until it's too late. Yeah. And Jesus has a way of doing this that really only maybe the parable can allow. [00:44:30] Jesse Schwamb: So like in other words, by the time you realize. A parable is like metaphorical, or even in a limited case, it's allegorical form you've already identified with one or more of the characters and you're caught in the trap. So what comes to my mind there is like the one Old Testament narrative, virtually identical, informed to those Jesus told is Nathan's parable of the You lamb. [00:44:52] Jesse Schwamb: So that's in like second Samuel 12, and I was just looking this up as you were, as you were speaking. So in this potentially life and death move for the prophet Nathan confronts King David. Over his adultery with, or depending on how you see it, rape of Bathsheba, and then his subsequent murder of her husband Uriah, by sending him to the front lines of battle. [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: So he's killed. And so in this parable that Nathan tells Uriah is like the poor man. Bathsheba is like the Yu a and the rich man obviously represents David. If you, you know what I'm talking about, go back and look at second Samuel 12. And so what's interesting is once David is hooked into that story, he cannot deny that his behavior was unjust as that of the rich man in the story who takes this UAM for himself and he, which he openly. [00:45:38] Jesse Schwamb: Then David openly condemns of course, like the amazing climax of this. And as the reader who has. Of course, like omniscient knowledge in the story, you know, the plot of things, right? You're, you're already crying out, like you're throwing something, you know, across the room saying like, how can you not see this about you? [00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: And of course the climax comes in when Nathan points the finger at David and declares, you are the man. And that's kind of what. The parables due to us. Yes. They're not always like the same in accusatory toward us, but they do call us out. This is where, again, when we talk about like the scripture reading us, the parable is particularly good at that because sometimes we tend to identify, you know, again, with like one of the particular characters whom we probably shouldn't identify with, or like you said, the parable, the sower. [00:46:22] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't the Christian always quick to be like, I am the virtual grounds? Yeah. You still have to ask like, you know, there is not like a Paul washer way of doing this, but there is like a way of saying like, checking yourself before you wreck yourself there. And so when Jesus's parables have lost some of that shock value in today's world, we maybe need to contemporize them a little bit. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I, and I think we'll talk about that as we go through it. We're not rewriting them for any reason that that would be completely inappropriate. Think about this though. Like the Jew robbed and left for dead. And you know the story of the Grace Samaritan may need to become like the white evangelical man who is helped by like the black Muslim woman after the senior pastor and the worship leader from the local reformed church passed by like that. [00:47:05] Jesse Schwamb: That might be the frame, which we should put it to try to understand it whenever we face a hostile audience that this indirect rhetoric of compelling stories may help at least some people hear God's world more favorably, and I think that's why you get both like a soft. And a sharp edge with these stories. [00:47:20] Jesse Schwamb: But it's the ability to, to kind of come in on the sneak attack. It's to make you feel welcomed in and to identify with somebody. And then sometimes to find that you're identifying entirely with a character whom Jesus is gonna say, listen, don't be this way, or This is what the kingdom of God is, is not like this. [00:47:35] Jesse Schwamb: Or again, to give you shock value, not for the sake of telling like a good tale that somehow has a twist where it's like everybody was actually. All Dead at the end. Another movie, by the way, I have not seen, but I just know that that's like, I'll never see that movie because, can we say it that the spoiler is, is out on that, right? [00:47:54] Tony Arsenal: Are we, what are we talking about? What movie are we talking about? [00:47:56] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I don't, I don't wanna say it. I didn't [00:47:57] Tony Arsenal: even get it from your description. Oh. [00:47:59] Jesse Schwamb: Like that, that movie where like, he was dead the whole time. [00:48:02] Tony Arsenal: Oh, this, that, that, that movie came out like 30 years ago, Jesse. Oh, seriously? [00:48:06] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. All right. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: So Six Sense. [00:48:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. That movie came out a long time ago. [00:48:10] Jesse Schwamb: So it's not like the parables are the sixth sense, and it's like, let me get you like a really cool twist. Right. Or like hook at the end. I, and I think in part it is to disarm you and to draw you in in such a way that we might honestly consider what's happening there. [00:48:22] Jesse Schwamb: And that's how it reads us. [00:48:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's a good point. And, and. It bears saying there are all sorts of parables all throughout the Bible. It's not just Jesus that teaches these, and they do have this similar effect that they, they draw you in. Um, oftentimes you identify it preliminarily, you identify with the wrong person, and it's not until you. [00:48:45] Tony Arsenal: Or you don't identify with anyone when you should. Right. Right. And it's not until the sort of punchline or I think that account with Nathan is so spot on because it's the same kind of thing. David did not have ears to hear. [00:48:58] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Until he had That's good point. Ears [00:49:00] Tony Arsenal: to hear. [00:49:00] Jesse Schwamb: Good point. [00:49:01] Tony Arsenal: And he heard the point of the parable. [00:49:03] Tony Arsenal: He understood the point of the parable and he didn't understand that the parable was about him, right? It's like the ultimate, I don't know why you're clapping David, I'm talking about you moment. Um, I'm just have this picture of Paul washer in like a biblical era robe. Um, so I think that's a enough progam to the series. [00:49:20] Preparing for the Series on Parables [00:49:20] Tony Arsenal: We're super excited we're, we'll cover some of these principles again, because again, different parables have to be interpreted different ways, and some of these principles apply to one and don't to others, and so we'll, we'll tease that out when we get there next week. We're gonna just jump right in. [00:49:34] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna get started with, I think, um, I actually think, you know, in the, the providence of, of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and then obviously the providence of God in Christ's ministry, the, the parable that kind of like frames all of the other parables,

In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse explore the complex relationship between Christian vocation and professional ambition. Moving beyond the obvious prohibition of inherently sinful professions, they examine whether certain legitimate careers might still be inappropriate for Christians if they compromise our responsibilities to family and church. The hosts challenge the common assumption that Christians should seek maximum worldly influence, suggesting instead that faithfulness in our threefold calling—to work, family, and church—should guide our vocational choices. Drawing on Reformed theology's rich understanding of vocation, they offer practical wisdom for believers navigating career decisions and workplace responsibilities while maintaining spiritual priorities in a culture that often glorifies professional success at any cost. Key Takeaways Vocation is threefold: A proper understanding of Christian vocation includes responsibilities to our work, our families, and our church—not just our careers. Lord's Day conflicts: Professions that regularly prevent church attendance and Lord's Day observance may be inappropriate for Christians, regardless of their potential for influence or impact. Family obligations: Scripture teaches that Christians who neglect family responsibilities are "worse than unbelievers" (1 Tim. 5:8), suggesting that careers demanding excessive time away from family may be problematic. Christian influence vs. gospel proclamation: We must distinguish between transforming culture through worldly influence versus the actual proclamation of the gospel, which can happen at any level of employment. Sacrifice is expected: Following Christ often requires sacrificing career advancement, prestige, or financial gain to fulfill our primary callings. Priority check: When considering job opportunities, Christians should evaluate church options in a new location with the same care they give to schools, housing, and other community factors. God calls us to faithfulness: Our primary calling is to faithfulness in our responsibilities, not necessarily to positions of maximum influence or cultural power. Balancing the Threefold Calling The hosts challenge the idea that Christians should prioritize career advancement and influence above all else. They argue that vocation in the Reformed tradition encompasses more than just our paid work—it includes our responsibilities to family and church as well. This means that even if a career opportunity seems beneficial for "kingdom influence," we must evaluate whether it allows us to fulfill our other God-given duties. Tony points out that while some professions clearly contradict Christian ethics, others may subtly undermine our ability to be faithful in all areas of life. A high-powered executive role might provide platforms for influence but could require such time commitments that family relationships suffer or regular Lord's Day worship becomes impossible. As Jesse observes, "vocation is fundamentally God's doing," not simply about finding personal fulfillment or maximizing impact. This framework helps believers evaluate career choices more holistically. The Question of Christian Influence A central question emerges throughout the episode: Should Christians pursue positions of maximum influence to advance kingdom values? While this idea sounds appealing, the hosts suggest it often masks a "theology of glory" rather than embracing the "theology of the cross." Jesse notes that "God doesn't call us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is faithfulness." They distinguish between the transformative power of the gospel—which can be proclaimed regardless of position—and other ways of transforming culture through worldly influence. Tony explains that "whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same." This perspective challenges Christians to reconsider whether pursuing leadership positions always aligns with God's calling, especially when such roles might compromise other spiritual obligations. The hosts argue that faithfulness in ordinary circumstances, not exceptional influence, should be our primary aim. Quotes "Would it be great if the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. But if the trade-off is that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, that's not worth it." - Tony Arsenal "I do think we have to sit back and ask, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential... I think there is a real temptation to somehow say like, what we need to do is to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things here will be better." - Jesse Schwamb "I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family, or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day... than it is on something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level." - Tony Arsenal Practical Applications The hosts suggest several practical considerations for Christians evaluating career opportunities: Will this job regularly prevent Lord's Day worship? Does it require sacrificing time with family beyond what's reasonable? Could you negotiate Sabbath observance with potential employers? When relocating, evaluate church options with the same care given to schools and housing Consider whether a lower-paying job that allows faithfulness in all areas might be better than a higher-paying one that doesn't Full Transcript [00:00:00] Introduction and Episode Overview [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 458 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:16] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where even your work is unto the glory of God. Hey brother. Hey [00:00:24] Jesse Schwamb: brother. You know that's right. It [00:00:26] Tony Arsenal: is. That's why I said it. [00:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it was. That's a great way to open. We, I think from time to time come back to the topic of work and we've got a great, I think, conversation in the queue for this particular episode. [00:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Now it's gonna sound maybe on the face. Right off the top here. Familiar. So of course, like we've talked before, how scripture makes it clear that Christians are to be salt and light in the world. And we've talked, I think, at length about, well, how exactly do we carry out that? And though we know that we're not saved by our good works. [00:00:57] Jesse Schwamb: Again, the Bible teaches very clearly that God expects good works from Christians, that that is in fact what he saves us to do. Again, we're not saved by those good works, but the question I think still remains, and we're gonna come to it in this conversation about what exactly does he want us to do and where does he want us to do it. [00:01:13] Jesse Schwamb: So in other words, we know that according to scripture, God providentially, governs and cares for his entire creation. So how does that play out in human society given the reality of sin? So we're gonna get to topics like. Well, should Christians be in every line of work? Is that the ideal? Are there jobs or positions or responsibilities that seemingly may not be obvious that Christians really shouldn't be a part of? [00:01:37] Jesse Schwamb: Because it takes them too far afield, maybe from the responsibilities that God gives us holistically to think of our calling is and our families and our churches in our work. So it's a bit more nuanced play of a conversation we had before, but hopefully something that's gonna have all kinds of practicality wrapped around it. [00:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So that's what's coming. [00:01:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. I think this is gonna be a good conversation and I think I, I think this is one of those topics where like there's a lot of different angles to come at it from, right? We talk about vocation and work, and we've had those conversations before, and I think other shows and other venues have had that conversation before. [00:02:15] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that I've encountered a conversation really to this like angle of it. So I'm looking forward to this. [00:02:23] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. It's gonna be great. And of course, before we get to all that goodness, all that greatness, which I'm sure is about to transpire shortly and will be of course the definitive conversation, the one to end all to, I guess both to your point, bring it into the world. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Then to shut it down because we'll have accomplished both ends in just a single hour. [00:02:41] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:41] Jesse Schwamb: Before we get to that, let's do some affirming or denying. This is the part of our conversation where you and I always pick one thing either that we're affirming with and kind of the tradition of the reformed faith, where we take something that's undervalued or something that excites us, we think has great merit or worth, and we put out into the world and say, we're standing behind this thing, or conversely, we deny against it in that same kind of tradition by saying, this thing is overvalued, not worth it. [00:03:05] Jesse Schwamb: Not our jam. So in our tradition, I ask you are you affirming with something or are you not against something? [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something specific that will lead to something general. So, okay. [00:03:16] Exploring AI in Learning [00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I've been playing around with Google Gemini, which is Google's AI platform. [00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: And uh, I've been using it in a sort of interesting way. So Google has, uh, Gemini has these things called gems, which are basically like predefined personalities or predefined. I dunno, like instructions. So they have one gem that is a learning guide where basically you can give it a topic and it will, it will deliver mini lectures, give you quizzes, you can prompt it. [00:03:46] Tony Arsenal: So like I can paste in, um, you know, I can take in Lagos, I can paste a copy of the Bible, like a chapter of the Bible into the learning guide. It'll summarize it, it'll ask me questions. It'll basically gimme many lectures on it. Um, that's the specific thing. This is such a cool technology. And in my mind, this is really where AI is strong, is that you can take large sections of text and it will summarize it and synthesize it into a very usable format. [00:04:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, so what I've been doing, like I said, is I'll read, I'll read a, a chunk of text from whatever it is I'm reading, and then I'll copy and paste that entire chunk of text if it's an electronic text into the learning. Learning guide module and ask it to act as like a seminary lecturer and quiz me on the content. [00:04:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, which really helps to solidify the content I'm reading rather than just passing my eyes over it. I'm actually, um, processing it and retaining it more. I think you could probably do something similar with just about any AI platform if you had the right kind of prompt, which is where the general one comes in. [00:04:50] Tony Arsenal: And I would encourage you, listener to think a little bit about how you might utilize this, because I think we all read lots and lots of things. Our, our, um, particular audience tends to be a little bookish, and so I'm sure we're all reading things as we go, but I'm not sure we're always processing things in the most effective way. [00:05:07] Tony Arsenal: So think a little bit about like how you might use something like chat, GPT, which is available for free, or Claude, which is available for free to do this kind of like. Almost like simulated classroom lecture. Um, and I know there are some questions about ai. Like I, I heard an argument that ai, when you're generating content is, is a sort of form of sophisticated, uh, plagiarism, which I'm not sure I buy it, but I understand the argument. [00:05:33] Tony Arsenal: This is something very different where you're really just using the, using the AI to synthesize and summarize text and sort of spit it back to you in a new format. Um, you're not trying to generate anything new. You're not trying to create anything. That you're gonna publish or anything like that. It's really just a, a form of synthesis. [00:05:49] Tony Arsenal: So I've really found this to be super beneficial. Um, I'm having a really great time at it. I'm, I'm using it for language studies, so I'm reading through mount's basics, biblical Greek. And I'll copy and paste the whole chapter in, ask it to act as a lecturer, and it will walk me through the chapter. It'll stop to do quizzes. [00:06:08] Tony Arsenal: It'll drill me on vocab as I'm going. And then when, when I up, the instruction I get is, don't move forward until you are convinced that I've mastered the content. And so when I get something wrong, it goes back and makes me redo it. So it continues to iterate until it's, until the AI has. Synthesize that I have mastered the content, and then it asks me to provide the next chapter. [00:06:30] Tony Arsenal: So it's a cool technology. It's a, it's a sort of novel use for the technology. Um, again, Google has built in modules that do this, but I think you could probably use chat, GPT or Claude or Orrock or whatever AI model you're using to accomplish the same goal. [00:06:45] Jesse Schwamb: There's no doubt that AI is great for like building study notes, helping you create space, repetition, all those like little hacks that we have long talked about. [00:06:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this provides it to you in a really bespoke course customized way, but it gets you involved. I'm with you if you wanna do this the old fashioned way. I'll go back to something I I've affirmed with before and that's this very famous book originally authored in the 1940s called How to Read a Book by Mor Mortimer, j Adler, and that is an exercise. [00:07:13] Jesse Schwamb: Helping you do some of that stuff in real time as well. Yeah, so I think there'd be a lovely compliment to say you're reading actively and then you get to test immediately that active reading by way of using ai. So even before, like, maybe even just jumping to like, well, let me read it, but I'm, I'm gonna trust that AI's gonna really kind of supplement me or fill in the gaps and just gimme what I need to know. [00:07:33] Jesse Schwamb: Trying to do that in real time. Pausing in your reading. Again, kind of studying as you go along, thinking out loud through what you've just read and then saying, alright, now test me is a great way to, 'cause who wants to like read stuff unless you can remember this stuff and then unless you can apply it, right? [00:07:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So it's such a joy to be able to read things and then to remember. And if you haven't had that experience yet, I like your affirmation. I think this is a great way to test it out. [00:07:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, just to maybe flesh this out. So I, I asked it to, and I'm, I'm doing this sort of as an experiment just to see how it works, but also just 'cause it's, it's useful. [00:08:06] Tony Arsenal: I asked it to act as a seminary lecturer and I copied and paste the entire first chapter of the Westminster Confession. And rather than split it up by section and actually combined paragraphs that were. Um, related to each other. So it combined the list of Bible, uh, books, and then the chapter on apocrypha and gave me some like lectures. [00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: But here's what it said about, um, about chapter 10. It says, paragraph 10, declares the supreme judge can be no other than the Holy Spirit speaking scripture. This is the ultimate outworking of sola Scripture, means that every other authority is lesser authority that must submit to the judgment of the word of God. [00:08:42] Tony Arsenal: This includes decrees of church counsels. Opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, private spirits. It goes on for a little while longer. Then it says, I will give you a brief final quiz covering the whole of chapter one, and it asks questions like A historian makes the following claim. The Bible only has authority. [00:08:59] Tony Arsenal: It does because influential councils in the early church, like the Council of Carthage officially voted on which books would be included in the cannon. The church therefore gave the Bible its authority drawing from your knowledge of paragraphs three, uh, three, four, and five. Provide a two-part critique of the historian statement. [00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Which then I had to type it out. It critiqued, um, it analyzed my answer. Um, I happened to get that question right. I did at one point think maybe this is actually just like finding a way to say everything that I say is right. So I purposely put a wrong answer in and it did identify that the answer was wrong, and then it made me go back and revisit that content. [00:09:35] Tony Arsenal: So it's very, it's a very cool use case. I'm glad that Google kind of built this in. They have all sorts of other gems. If you have, if you have a way to get access to Google Gemini, um. It's not the best AI for everything, but it's got, it's pretty versatile. It's got a lot of utility, so check it out. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that sounds great. [00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Again, there's all kinds of fun things I think we could be using AI for to help us be better learners or to really enjoy our interaction with data and information more. Yeah. It is a really great way to conversationally help you to learn something, and that's what makes it so much better. It stands way far apart from, again, just leading, just reading or just creating flashcards or even just, just creating study notes, but that back and forth to test you on something, even if it's just like casual knowledge that you can really want to internalize. [00:10:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I found that to be super valuable. Again, like, man, if you're a learner, if you're a reader, if you're a human being, what an amazing time to live in the world where data is so prevalent, but it's increasingly being brought into a place where we can put our arms around it in a way in which we're trying to really understand it. [00:10:38] Jesse Schwamb: You know, I think about how we used to search for something, I mean. Used to like this that like, that wasn't like last year. You know what I mean? Like we just go on to our, your favorite search engine. Type in a topic or maybe type in even a specific question. And at best you'd have to sort through this litany, this plethora, this morass of all these links about articles that may pertain to what you asked. [00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Or maybe they pertain to it generally, but not really specifically. Yeah. The specificity with which you can have a conversational interaction that engenders knowledge is wild. I mean, I really think that is like the huge play of ai. Just lean into it and enjoy it. [00:11:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:11:16] Nasal Spray Affirmation [00:11:16] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going a totally different direction. It's an affirmation, but I'm taking it from my ears, nose, nose, and throat doctor who affirmed this to me, so I might be totally late on this. There are very few things that I can say like somebody's recommended to me or affirm. It's been like absolute game changer, like just drop dead from the first moment I used it or employed the thing that it just changed everything. [00:11:38] Jesse Schwamb: This is one of those things. Which maybe I've just already oversold, but the affirmation is with something called it's, it's spelled X-L-E-A-R, I think it's still pronounced clear, but it's called literally phonetically XL nasal spray, and it's a. This doesn't sound very exciting, but bear with me everybody. [00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a natural, non-addictive saline nasal spray featuring Zi Atol as its primary active ingredient. So if you're not familiar with Zi Atol, which I wasn't until I went to my ENT by the way I've seen for many years and only just recommended this to me. So I had some words 'cause I was working, where's this been all my life. [00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: But Zito is a naturally occurring alcohol sugar. It's found in like many fruits and vegetables, and it can be commercially produced from like birch wine or corn fiber. It looks and tastes similar to like table sugar, but it contains fewer calories, so it can be used and is often used as like a sweetener in sugar-free foods like chewing gum, mint candies, jam, stuff like that. [00:12:35] Jesse Schwamb: Here's one of the strange side effects. That they notice though about Zi atol, and that is it totally, uh, cleanses, moisturizes and soos nasal passages. And it gives you all kinds of relief from like common congestion stuff like colds, allergies, low humidity, humidity, science, pressure, stuff like that. What it does is it actually breaks down or lubricates your inner nasal passages, including like flushing out the mucus. like it works actually with your body. So what's amazing is it's, it's really great for, it's kinda like a soap for the nose. It clears up bacteria, pollens, dander, molds, like all kinds of irritants. [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: It also studies have shown blocks, adhesion of other pathogens like bacterial, fungal, viral to the mucosal tissues, helping the body to wash them away. So [00:13:23] Jesse Schwamb: this thing is absolutely. Wild. And I can say for certain that if you're the kind of person like me, where let's say like you're, you're hitting the Flonase hard at different seasons because you got those seasonal allergies because of the fall and because sin is real. I'm with you. That dries out your nose. [00:13:42] Jesse Schwamb: This thing is like a, a sauna or a spa for your nose, and then it literally like clears everything out. It's almost magical. I, I'm serious. It's so fantastic. So if you've been looking for something to really help with that and it, again, it's safe. There's no drug in it. It's not addictive, so you can use it all the time. [00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: It's just saline and zi etol. It is phenomenal. So go get yourself, do yourself a favor. Do, do your, do your nose and your sinuses a solid and, and get the solids outta them by using. X clear. I feel like a bat just flew by your face or like a giant bird. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So, uh, first of all, that sounds like a really great thing to check out. [00:14:22] Tony Arsenal: Is this clear stuff? Um, I have had struggles with like sinus infections over the last couple years, so I'm gonna check this out when it gets to allergy season in the fall year. [00:14:32] Hummingbird Moth Encounter [00:14:32] Tony Arsenal: But yes, uh, one of the rare, uh, moths that I've learned lives near my house is called a, uh, what's it called? Uh. It commonly, it's called like a hummingbird moth. [00:14:44] Tony Arsenal: Have you heard of these things? Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, I've never seen them before, but the reason they're called hummingbird moths is 'cause they look like hummingbirds, but they're actually moths and I right now. Hopefully this will change eventually, but. It will have to, 'cause it gets cold here. Um, I'm recording outside and a hummingbird moth literally just flew between my computer and my face. [00:15:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, I wasn't talking at the time so you wouldn't be able to see it on the screen, which is too bad. Uh, but yeah, Jesse saw me freak out a little bit, which is uh, which is fine. [00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: It happened the [00:15:16] Tony Arsenal: first time I saw one. I was like, is that a huge bee? No, it's just a hummingbird broth. [00:15:21] Jesse Schwamb: Somebody, everybody should look them up though, because they're kind of wild looking. [00:15:25] Jesse Schwamb: Like if you've seen it in real life, they have that hummingbird pose where the body, body is kind of laid back and the wings are going crazy. Like they literally do hover like that. Yeah. And they're, they're almost that big. The one that tried to attack you there was pretty large. [00:15:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. They don't, um, they, they. [00:15:41] Tony Arsenal: Move a little different than hummingbirds, which is why the first time that I saw one, I thought it was a bee. Um, because when they, when they land on a flower, they crawl inside the flower the same way that a, like a bee or a bumblebee will, um, they don't hover outside the flower like a hummingbird, but they do. [00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: They, their body is, I mean, their body is probably an, an inch and a half long like a hummingbird. Um, and it's thick like a hummingbird. They don't look like moths at all. So I'm not sure they must be part of the Moth family, I guess. Um, I'm trying to remember. It's. They have like a specific name, I wanna say Scarab, but that's not right. [00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: But it's something like that is the, the technical name of it. They're like a scarab moth or something like that. But [00:16:20] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, I've just come up. It's a wild name. [00:16:22] Tony Arsenal: This is your top 50 Entomology, uh, podcast apparently. As well as the top 50 health cath. We're gonna, we're gonna uh, com combine the two tonight, so yeah, I'm gonna check that out in the, the spring or in the fall here, Jesse. [00:16:34] Tony Arsenal: My, my allergies always go a little bit crazy when we get to September. Yeah. With all the, like leaves falling down and crumbling up and stuff, it just gets in the air, so I'll just, I'll spray some artificial sugar. It's not artificial. I'll spray some pseudo sugar in my nose and see what happens. [00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It does have the added benefit that because it is a naturally occurring. [00:16:53] Jesse Schwamb: Sugar, like it's a type of sugar alcohol that if it drips down the back of your throat, all you get is a little like, mm, sweet. [00:17:03] Tony Arsenal: I wanna know who the first guy who was like, let me put some of this fake sugar in my nose and see what happens was it's, [00:17:09] Jesse Schwamb: I'm telling you, it, it's better than any actual, like, prescribed nasal spray I've ever taken. [00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: You can get it like just at your g it. Yeah. Or you can get it on Amazon. I, I will, I forgot about it for a while. I, maybe I use it daily now it's become my go-to. But I mean, I don't wanna make this weird or gross, but it's the kind of thing like if you wake up in the morning and you're stuffy and you, it feels like somebody parked like a bus way up in your sinus cavity. [00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And you're like, I can't even blow my nose. There's nothing there where, where's all this stuff? There's nothing there. If you use this, when I use this within two, two, I'd say like seven minutes, I can just. Drop a huge load of mucus right outta my face and you feel like a million bucks. I don't know how to describe it. [00:17:49] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's like better than like a sinus rinse or a netty pot. I know this sounds wild, like I'm way too excited about this stuff, but that clear spray is wild. And what I especially love is that it's all natural, that I'm not doing any harm to my nose or my face by using it. And that it, I just feel better afterwards because it's like moisturized everything. [00:18:08] Jesse Schwamb: So, and there's, there's, the debate is I think ongoing. There's a lot apparently, because I went down the rabbit trail and looked at all these scholarly studies and peer-reviewed journal papers, all this stuff. There's a lot, I guess, uh, still somewhat in debate about like its ability to really help prevent certain things like COVID, any kind of like nasal airborne kind of like, yeah, because it helps to flush and it prevents literally bacteria from sticking, uh, inside your nasal passages. [00:18:34] Jesse Schwamb: So that could be a benefit. I can't say anything about that. I'm not a doctor. What, [00:18:40] Tony Arsenal: what I would love is, uh, if you are a listener who has seasonal allergies or whatever, uh, if you would join our telegram chat at t.me/reform brotherhood. Well done. We have what's normally a tastings channel, which is like people get like new foods they wanna check out, or a beer they like or whatever, and they'll, uh, they'll do a little tasting and a review. [00:19:04] Tony Arsenal: I would love if some people would join the channel and do some, some clear, clear. We'll go clear, uh, a tasting of this nasal spray. Yeah, please don't show us. 'cause that's disgusting. Right. But, uh, let us know. Let us know what you think of it. I think that'd be great. So that's t me slash Reform Brotherhood. [00:19:21] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. Come hang out with us. It's a lot of fun. I see we've had some people join that group this week, so I see you out there, brother Sean. Crushing it, getting in the mix. Welcome everybody. Come again. Spend a little time in there. And there's, I love that the channel for like the conversation about our episodes is. [00:19:37] Jesse Schwamb: Hot. It's going strong. I love that. And we gave the call last week. You should listen to last week's episode when we were really speaking about, uh, God's faithfulness and a challenge of how we seek after piety, under the care and the direction, the kind direction and the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit. [00:19:55] Jesse Schwamb: So many good things were said there. I really loved reading all those. And it probably goes without saying, but I'm gonna mention it anyway. You and I read everything that pops in there. Yeah. For the most part. I mean, sometimes I look at it and there's 150 messages, right? And um, it got wild. But I go back through and always, always read those. [00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: But I especially love like the conversation when we invite people to say, like, now it's, we'd love to hear from you. And so I think that's gonna be a large part of what we talk about. On this episode as well. [00:20:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So, Jesse, why don't you lead us in here. This was the topic you brought up. I think it's a great one. [00:20:25] Tony Arsenal: I'd love to to dive into it here. [00:20:27] Christian Vocation and Work [00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: I think one of the things that Christians always have to come to terms with at some point, every generation has to, but every person as well is, so where is my role as Christ child in something we might generally call like Christian activism? By which I mean like, of course, like Christians. [00:20:44] Jesse Schwamb: Attempt to improve or influence society through time, especially in our work. And as I was thinking about this recently, I think one of the hard things we have to measure out is well. Are there different places where we would, there's certainly jobs where we say Christians shouldn't hold that position because it contravenes God's law directly. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: But what about these kind of, as we've talked about before, this threefold responsibility that we have in our callings, which you can go back to our previous catalog, which is all in the reform brotherhood.com, by the way. Listen to where we talked about this idea of like the vocation that happens in our work, in our households, in our church, and is it possible that in the work sphere that there are jobs that like Christians just shouldn't hold because it takes them too far away from their responsibilities in the other two spheres, which there are equally parts of their vocation, or if we want to put like a really fine point in it, and I don't really mean to derail the conversation with this question, but this would be exemplifying kind of what we're after here, which was like, should Christians be involved and. [00:21:47] Jesse Schwamb: In politics, are there other jobs like that where we'd say, listen, we, we tr we trust God in his sovereign superintendent will that he's always doing his good work. And you and I have talked at length about what it means to be living in the, under the normal principle of God using ordinary, normal means to do great and extraordinary things. [00:22:06] Jesse Schwamb: So how does all of that fit with our work? Are there lines to be drawn or. Does it not really matter? [00:22:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think for the sake of our conversation, we can just sort of take some professions off the table. Right? Of course, there are some professions of course, and calling them professions is probably even, probably even a misnomer. [00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: But there are some ways to earn money that are just intrinsically sinful that are outside of the scope of the conversation, right? You can't, uh, there's no argument for a Christian to become like. An assassin or like a drug dealer or a prostitute, like, there's no, there's no valid argument or discussion to be had around those. [00:22:45] Tony Arsenal: So we can just exclude those entirely. But I think for, for the sake of this conversation, we're talking about professions that do not involve, intrinsically involve sin, um, and, and may or may not have, um. Prudential reasons why they are not the best idea. Right. So I, I'm thinking like, the one that came to mind when you asked this was like, and it's funny because I, um, I mentioned the topic to my wife and, you know, she kind of joked, I was like, well, yeah, like Christians can't be. [00:23:15] Tony Arsenal: Can't like be porn stars, like that's not something you can do as a Christian. But then, then I, she said, well, what, what other professions would it be? I said, well, like, like a professional football player, right? And like the question is like, can a Christian be a professional football player? I think instinctively, right? [00:23:29] Tony Arsenal: We all say yes. But, but is that actually true? Right. And, and I would, I would make the argument that no, like a Christian can't be a professional football player or really, really any kind of professional sports, um, figure because it, it necessarily takes you away from the gathered fellowship of Christians on the Lord's day on far too often a basis. [00:23:47] Tony Arsenal: Right? I don't think you can make a good prudential argument to say like, well. It's fine for a Christian to be absent from the lord's uh, Lord's Day worship in his congregation of membership, you know, 60% of the time. Like, I just don't think you can make that argument. So I think in a lot of these cases, the immediate instinctive answer is yes. [00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: Uh. Christians can be part of any profession, and there's a certain, there's a certain way that that's true, but when we actually start to look at the way some professions actually play out, we have to analyze that a lot deeper. And this is actually not all that different than our conversation last week. [00:24:23] Tony Arsenal: Right. Involving like a. Pop culture and like media consumption is we have to look at what is actually, what the actual cost is. Uh, opportunity cost, I guess if we want to use like economic terms, what the actual opportunity cost is here of a particular profession in respect of. Our obligations and our commitments as a Christian and our obligation to the law of God, our obligation to our Christian brothers and sisters, all of that. [00:24:49] Tony Arsenal: So I think this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited to get into it. Um, but I do think it's one that we should think through a little bit more than just sort of like our gut reaction. Like we, of course, Christians can be involved in any profession. [00:25:00] Jesse Schwamb: Let me add to that. 'cause that's perfect. That's exactly, you're not on the same page as usual. [00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's exactly where my mind was going. And what makes like this such a rich opportunity to really explore what the scripture has to say about this particular topic? I think you're right on that we need to weigh out, which we often just kind of glance over. What are the other responsibilities by taking on a particular line of work or job. [00:25:20] Jesse Schwamb: Does that necessarily mean that we must sacrifice and preclude these other areas? We should have direct or more intimate involvement because that is also part of vocation. Part of that, like we've talked about at length before, is responsibility in the Lord's day. So we might set that up as one particular test. [00:25:36] Jesse Schwamb: To that end, another one might be exactly what you were saying. So here's like the opposite of like the professional footballer or American football or whatever. Pick your, pick your sports. What about like high level? High responsibility, let's say leadership positions like in all kinds of areas of industry that would require the man or the woman to, let's say, like be on call continually, or maybe to sacrifice long hours at that job as part and parcel of what's required to do it effectively. [00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: And that might mean that necessarily like not being very connected with family or having to be away from their family a lot of the time. I think what we often come to is this idea that, wouldn't it be great if Christians were just everywhere and were infiltrating all the things all the time at all the levels. [00:26:21] Jesse Schwamb: I think the question here that's under the surface is, is that what God assigns in a life of vocation? And maybe it's, it's of course more nuance than that and it could be for the person. Again, I wanna be clear that, like we said before, vocation is a very specific and narrow term in that we're talking about an actual calling being called out for a particular purpose. [00:26:42] Jesse Schwamb: And if we're using that in the right way, then it's possible that with the exception of some things like the Lord's Day, the other thing I just talked about, season of life. And your particular commitments or entanglements, they might be different from person to person. Therefore, allow for a direct call that God gives to a particular purpose at a particular time. [00:27:01] Jesse Schwamb: I think what I'm really kind of weighing out here is if we understand how the reformers viewed all of this. We have to come to this conclusion that God assigns us a life and then God calls us to that life. And that really is what vocation is all about. And notice in that there's nothing that's said about choosing a vocation or finding your true vocation or being fulfilled even in your vocation. [00:27:24] Jesse Schwamb: We may experience a struggle with all of that, but vocation is fundamentally God's doing. So what is. God doing in our society. And as you said, are there roles that he's, in a way not calling, let's say like the, the quintessential or the normative, I don't wanna say average 'cause that implies the weird thing, but Right. [00:27:44] Jesse Schwamb: Kind of Christian too. And I think. We've gotta, we've gotta wrestle with that because you're right. Like we too often just run to, we need Christians in all the places now let's get them everywhere. Doing all the things. Yeah. And that might be good from our perspective, because Christians should be the best workers as we said that we should. [00:28:01] Jesse Schwamb: The most kind. There is the salt in lights everywhere. However, it takes a Christian to do all those things. And can a Christian in certain roles have great fidelity to the threefold? [00:28:13] Exploring the Theology of Work and the Lord's Day [00:28:13] Jesse Schwamb: Calling and vocation of life while upholding certain jobs and responsibilities. [00:28:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, um, I think that may be like a little bit of progam is, is warranted here too. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: Like there, you know, there's the, the, the conversation at the top of like, some, some professions are just out of bounds. Yeah. Um, but there's also, you know, a pretty robust theology. And I think a lot of this is gonna center around. Uh, maybe just for simplicity's sake and for the fact that we have 30 minutes left of a conversation that probably could be multiple hours, um, there's a pretty robust apparatus in reform theology that is designed to help Christians understand whether or not, um. [00:28:57] Tony Arsenal: A particular activity is acceptable on the Lord's day. And we've, we've had conversations in the past about like, if, if all of your theology of the Lord's Day is about what you can and can't do, then you're missing the point entirely. [00:29:11] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:29:11] Tony Arsenal: But there is an element of what you can and can't do in terms of understanding the Lord's day. [00:29:16] Tony Arsenal: Right. We're, we're not supposed to engage in worldly recreation or employment on the Lord's day. So we have to talk about what that means. And so I think. [00:29:24] Works of Necessity and Charity on the Lord's Day [00:29:24] Tony Arsenal: I think to start with, like there's categories, like works of necessity, works of charity, um, that, or, or like works of ministry, which would, would sort of be a third category that's not necessarily, um, not necessarily enumerated in many of the sources, but it's assumed that like pastors who are working on the Lord's day are not, they're not violating the Sabbath by doing the work on the Sabbath. [00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Um, I think we have to have those categories. 'cause I think that helps us inform too, like. If you are the CEO of a major retailer, does that mean you have to work on Sunday, right? Well, probably it does. Like, it probably means that on a regular basis you're gonna be checking emails on your phone, you're gonna be taking phone calls. [00:30:05] Tony Arsenal: You've got, you might have partners in markets overseas where it, it's Sunday morning for you, but it's Monday afternoon or you know, Monday morning for them or something like that. Um. I think that the industry you're in largely is going to drive whether that's an acceptable or, or an appropriate role for you. [00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So I could see a situation where you could make the argument that being the CEO of a of a major medical center, right. Where the work that's being done at the medical center falls easily within that sort of definition of, uh, works of necessity. A nurse who is working in the emergency room or a police officer or a firefighter or somebody who is fixing the power, like in our society, right? [00:30:47] Tony Arsenal: Electricity is, is not an option for most people. It's not a, it's not a luxury for most people. So those, those professions. It's acceptable to work on the Lord's Day when it's a work of necessity, and so the higher level leadership positions that make those possible and constrain them also, I think. Would fall under that same work of necessity. [00:31:06] Tony Arsenal: If the CEO of my hospital, I don't know if she's a Christian or not. I, I'm, I'm not speculating on that, but if, if the CEO of my hospital was a Christian or is a Christian and she has to take an important phone call on Sunday morning and miss the Lord's day because if she doesn't take care of that, the hospital's not gonna function correctly and people may not have emergency services. [00:31:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that's a violation of the south principle. If the same scenario is happening and it's the CEO of Best Buy and they need to take a phone call, otherwise people won't be able to buy widgets on Sunday afternoon, that's a different calculation. So I think like right off the bat, we have to start having those conversations about what's the nature of the work, what's the, what's the tell loss of the work or the end aim of the work. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: That's really important as well. [00:31:48] Balancing Professional Responsibilities and Christian Obligations [00:31:48] Jesse Schwamb: So it sounds like though what we're saying, both of us in a way, is that if you run that test, so to speak, like you go through that algorithm and you come out with this idea that you know, it's, you're saying your industry is more like Best Buy and less like your local hospital, then there might be significant and maybe insurmountable roadblocks to taking that position Should be as a c. [00:32:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I mean, that's kinda what we're saying. [00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, for sure. And you know, like this is a real world application I think for a lot of people. I remember when I was in college, um, I had the opportunity to take a promotion. I worked at Best Buy. I, I'm not using Best Buy as an example for any specific reason, but I worked at Best Buy. [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: I worked in the Geek Squad area and I had the opportunity to take a promotion. Um, and the sort of the strings that came with the promotion is that I was expected to be available to work on Sundays. I didn't have a super robust doctrine of the Lord's Day at the time. Like I wasn't super theologically versed on Sabbath theology and stuff. [00:32:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, but it just didn't sit right with me. And so initially I didn't take the, I didn't take the, um, promotion because I didn't feel comfortable saying at the time, it was mostly about like, I'm not gonna miss the church service. I didn't feel comfortable saying I need to be available. And that might mean I Ms. [00:32:57] Tony Arsenal: Church to, to be able to take this shift. Um, eventually the management adapted and said, well, we'll just figure out something else. We really want you to take the position, but that's the kind of question we have to ask. And then that same question, as you move up in an organization, it expands and you're more likely to need to be drawn away from Lord State worship or just general. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: Obligations on the Lord's Day. [00:33:20] Personal Experiences and Real-World Applications [00:33:20] Tony Arsenal: And I don't wanna make this entirely about the Lord's Day 'cause there are other obligations that Christians have and it probably will be interesting to get to those. But I think, um, the, the other thing maybe that I wanna push back on a little bit too is I. I, I've never been a CEO. [00:33:34] Tony Arsenal: I probably never will be a CEO. You're far closer to a CEO than I ever will be. But I think a lot of times we assume those positions have no flexibility. Right. But in reality, some of those people are absolutely able to say, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take Sunday, and just not. Yes, I'm not gonna do work on Sunday. [00:33:52] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna delegate that. You know? And then this is a whole other question. I'm gonna delegate that to someone else. Well, there's a whole different question that comes with that, but saying like, I'm just not going to do work on Sunday is actually within the options for a lot of positions. So that's the other question is when we take a position, do we have the option to set aside the Lord's Day? [00:34:11] Tony Arsenal: Even if we might acknowledge that occasionally, that's not gonna work out. There are oftentimes in all of our lives that we're drawn away from being able to fulfill our ordinary obligation of the Lord's Day, and I don't think that that's intrinsically sinful. If on a rare occasion you're not able to attend the Lord's Day worship or something like that. [00:34:29] Tony Arsenal: So I think those are questions we have to ask. Then what? What kind of other Christian obligations do we have? And this is hypothetical, but you're welcome to answer if you've got one in mind. Like what other kinds of Christian obligations do we have that any particular vocation or particular job might make difficult or impossible to fulfill? [00:34:47] Tony Arsenal: I think those are questions we have to ask. [00:34:49] Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. And that's actually more where my mind goes because again, we've talked before and for some Christians it's easier to identify the stuff that certainly explicitly contravenes the Lord's Day. And I think it's more difficult to say like we, again, I think we talked before about that threefold responsibility and the vocation that is to like work that is like our industry, so to speak, and then to our household, then to our church. [00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: So the church often does. Again, in a very finely pointed way, connect very tightly with the Lord. Say what about that household stuff? Yeah. So what about these jobs that would just make you too busy? And I think like what's interesting to your point is I agree. Like I think part of this conversation is just a thoughtful assessment of what the job entails, and then even as like maybe you're taking a job or considering a job. [00:35:33] Jesse Schwamb: Having a conversation with your potential employer about what opportunity is there for flexibility given like certain convictions that you have? All of that could fall into place neatly and I think would still be within the bounds of yes, but I think part of this is if it's truly a calling that we, we have to be praying through it and assessing whether God is calling us through that. [00:35:50] Jesse Schwamb: Part of that is passing it through the sin of what the scriptures require in each of those threefold vocational responsibilities. So sometimes I hear there is like a pushback or counter, this argument says, but wouldn't it be better? [00:36:01] The Role of Christians in Leadership Positions [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: Wouldn't it be fantastic if you get a Christian as an opportunity to be a CEO? [00:36:05] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't it better for them to be a CEO and to be in that role, even if they're crazy busy, even if they're sacrificing so much for their family, for their household or for the church because they simply, they're gonna be a Christian and think of the role model and the emphasis and the impact they can have. [00:36:19] Jesse Schwamb: And to that, I would say we gotta be really careful with that loved ones because God, I don't think God's calling us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is, is faithfulness. Invocation, invocation pulls us back into those three responsibilities, and we know the way in which God prefers to work His jam is these ordinary means, these natural ways of in the normative work of our lives and faithfulness showing that his power is demonstrated in this weakness. [00:36:44] Jesse Schwamb: Somehow we're back to the theology of. Glory and theology of cross. But you know, it's interesting to me that there are no calls like in the entire scriptures, of course, to withdraw into like a private ghetto or to take back the realms of cultural and political activity. And so I think we have to be really careful about even how we kind of pull that into then how. [00:37:03] Jesse Schwamb: Our jobs that like, shouldn't it be my goal as a Christian to get as most influence as possible? And I think I wanna push back on that and say like, you know, the, the church, the Christian exists within the world as a community of word and sacrament. But it doesn't always have to seek influence in larger society. [00:37:19] Jesse Schwamb: It can. It can. And when God provides the opportunity by way of clear calling, I think internal and external that is appropriate. However, often that calling is gonna come at a much more normative level, I think. And, and I do not believe that we are somehow compromising or sub-optimizing the work that God does in the world merely because we might have a Christian that says, I don't know if it's right for me to be in this leadership role, and therefore a unbeliever is going to vault above that person's speaker or take that role on that somehow. [00:37:51] Jesse Schwamb: Again, God's superintendent will, or his strong arm is, is somehow pulled aback from what he wants to do that we need like more Christian plumbing in the world. I do kind of bristle that idea a little bit. Specifically because I wonder if sometimes we go outside of that calling. [00:38:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I'm picking up what you're putting down and I think, I think there's, um, it, it does all come back to theology, the cross theology of glory. [00:38:17] Tony Arsenal: And I'm glad that, that, that conversation happened before this. 'cause I think there's good framework there. I, I think, um, we, we as Christians can often confuse. The transformative power of the gospel with other ways of transforming culture. Yeah, that's good. Right. So, um, it is totally, um, I wanna be careful how I phrase this. [00:38:42] Tony Arsenal: I'm not post mill, I'm probably never gonna be post mill, but I'm okay with a kind of post mill theology that says that the gospel of Jesus Christ, as people become Christians, the culture will. Change along with that. And the gospel has a transformative power in that it changes individuals and individuals make up, make up the broader society. [00:39:05] Tony Arsenal: And so the society itself changes. Where I struggle with some flavors of postal theology, and this is where I think the theology of glory comes in, is there are some kinds of postal theology I'm thinking, I'm thinking, um, like Doug Wilson, they just, uh, opened A-C-R-A-C church in Washington, DC specifically with the goal of gaining influence with politicians. [00:39:26] Tony Arsenal: Right. I might be misconstruing that a little bit 'cause I haven't read all of it, but that's, that's the impression that I'm getting from some of their promotional material. I, I think we can, we can look at it and say the gospel can change culture as the gospel. And so where that. [00:39:43] Sacrifices and Priorities in Christian Vocation [00:39:43] Tony Arsenal: Levels of playing field is that whether you are, and this is where I think a genuine Protestant reform theology of vocation comes in, whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same. [00:39:58] Tony Arsenal: And you might have more people's ear as the CEO than you do as the janitor. Although I would maybe question that knowing how many people janitors interact with at the hospital, um, you may have more people's ears in a higher level position, but the message that you're proclaiming, the influence that you're wielding or you're using, I don't know what you wanna say. [00:40:18] Tony Arsenal: It's not different because it's still just the gospel. [00:40:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's good. [00:40:21] Tony Arsenal: Um. Where I think we can get confused is when we look at it and say, but we have these other opportunities to transfer, transform the culture by, um, for example, I, I'm the supervisor in my patient relations department. I'm making changes to the, to the policy and the way that we as a sort of service recovery resolution group, the way that we interact with patients, I'm making changes to that. [00:40:46] Tony Arsenal: I think those changes are consistent with the law of God as revealed in the light of nature, and I'm. I'm informed of those things and my whole outlook and ethos is shaped by the scriptures, but. I don't see the transformation of the way we interact with patients as somehow propagating the gospel, right? [00:41:05] Tony Arsenal: So we can, we can make transformation and make society better, right? If you're a politician, you can, you can legislate things that make society more outwardly in conformity with the law of God or more pleasant and more prosperous, and more flourishing, and those are all fine and well, but that's not. [00:41:21] Tony Arsenal: Building the kingdom of God in, in a strict sense. Right? And so I think what we're getting at is our, would it be great if, if, you know, the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. Sure of That'd be nice, of course. And yeah, they could probably do a lot of good things and they could probably shape the way that that business runs and they could probably, um, have more opportunities to share the gospel. [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: They could probably shape their business into a vehicle that, that moves forward. Missions, all those things are great, but. If the trade off is that that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, right? That's not worth it. And I think we, we look at this and we might be able to identify certain. [00:42:00] Tony Arsenal: Obvious ways that we would say, no, it's not worth it. Right? If a CEO, uh, the CEO of a major retailer has to give way to all of the, um, transgender LGBT sexual, you know, identity politics has to give way to that in order to survive as CEO, I think we would all look at that and go, yeah, it's probably a hard sacrifice, but that's a sacrifice we would expect a genuine Christian to make at that level. [00:42:25] Tony Arsenal: Where we might not look at it is saying, well, I don't know. The Bible says that if you don't properly care for your family, then you're worse than an unbeliever. That's right. And so that CEO that is at the office for 70 hours a week and is never home, um, and their kids don't, you know, their kids don't have an opportunity to know their father or their mother because their. [00:42:44] Tony Arsenal: Constantly jet setting around the world. I don't know that we would as readily identify that as a sacrifice. I would actually argue that, that the Bible is probably clearer about that being a problem than it is about identity politics or other sort of, of social issues that, that, uh, a business person might have to. [00:43:04] Tony Arsenal: Hold their nose a little bit and, and, you know, sign off on a commercial or something that they don't necessarily want to, I'm not advocating that they should do that, but I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family. [00:43:20] Tony Arsenal: Or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day, um, or, or something like that. I think the Bible is clearer about that than it is on. Something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that, that might, might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level. [00:43:35] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think this is a, it's an interesting question that we probably don't think about it from the right angle most of the time. [00:43:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's just too easy to consider this in light of if we can get more responsibility, that should always be a good thing. And I think that proclivity is, is fine and maybe even noble, but sometimes I think we do get it twisted where we get this sense that we are trying to make the world into something moral like the church. [00:43:57] Jesse Schwamb: And if we could do that in our jobs and get the most influence in that greatest sphere of impact. We should always take on those additional responsibilities. And I do think we have to sit back and ask and say, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential. [00:44:13] Jesse Schwamb: There's a lot of brilliant, God has made all kinds of brilliant people. Many of them are his children, and as a result of that, we might say like we should always again be trying to move up. And this is not to say that we shouldn't take great initiative, that we shouldn't want to try to do more and be more productive. [00:44:27] Jesse Schwamb: You and I have always been outspoken about that kind of thing, but I think there is a real temptation. To somehow say like, what we need to do is like to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things will, like, whether we wanna admit it or not, that things here will be better. [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: And I, I don't know all the time that what we're saying is what you just said, which was that what we're really concerned with is that the gospel get proclaimed more forthrightly. More loudly, more specifically, more cogently in all places. But that if we just had good examples of moral behavior and good character, yes, those things are profitable in and of their own ways, but there's also a lot of common grace we see God bring about good leaders who are not a Christian at high level to do that kind of thing. [00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes I do wonder, just depending on the job, quite honestly, whether it's really possible for Christian to be successful in that job. [00:45:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:45:14] Jesse Schwamb: As like the world or the industry or the company has defined it. I'm not sure that's the case, so I don't wanna put like too high a line on this. I think we're trying to just drop a bomb in some ways and say, I'm not gonna make it overly prescriptive and say like, as a Christian, you can't be a CEO. [00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: Move on. That's not true at all. Of course, again, here are hopefully what we said about the particulars of that wrestling through it and again. Really sensing where there's an actual call on your life that God has given for that role in a particular time. But I do think we ought to question where there's always and everywhere appropriate for any Christian to take on, quite frankly, any job. [00:45:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so I'm with you. Sometimes it's super easy when I first start out in banking, when I was looking for my second banking job. I had a great interview. It was a very nice company. The bank actually doesn't exist anymore, but, uh, one of the things, one of their big, like, kind of gimmicks was they were open seven days a week. [00:46:09] Jesse Schwamb: And so I said to them, well. I attend church on Sundays. That's my day of rest and my high conviction on that. And I said, is there any flexibility with that? And they said, Nope. You would still have to be on the schedule. And though they very graciously offered me the job, I was thankfully in a place where I, I turned that down. [00:46:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Actually I didn't have a job at the time, but I turned it down trusting. That God would provide. And this wasn't my great act of faith on my part. It was more of just, I think what you were saying, Tony, growing in our conviction that those things really do matter. Yes. And that it's sometimes just too easy to kind of push them aside and say, I, I know it's gonna be really stressful. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I know it might take much more of my time than I want to give. I know I might be at home a lot less. I know I might have less like attentional fortitude and space to think about my spouse or my children, but it's gonna be worth it because. I'll be able to like have this big influence. I do think sometimes madness lies that way. [00:47:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Certainly a great deal of foolishness. This is just hopefully a call for all of us as God's children to, to think through that. I don't wanna discourage anybody from taking on bigger and bolder things for the kingdom of God. I think we all have to think about what it is that we're. Promulgating or proclaiming when we talk about the Kingdom of God coming and whether or not we're just trying to make the world a better place, so to speak. [00:47:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. By bringing our like quote unquote Christian influence into a setting where really that influence is now particularly strong and what it's actually compromising is the vocation that we're meant to undertake. [00:47:37] Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions [00:47:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Are you ready to, for me to drop two bombs? Just, just straight up. You got, [00:47:41] Jesse Schwamb: you got two of them. [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: Let's do it. I, I've [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: got 13 minutes or less left on this episode. There go. So I actually got into a pretty big, uh, like a pretty big dust up with someone way back in the day when I was in the reform hub over actually this topic. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it earlier in the evening. Um, we are using like CEOs as like kind of the proxy for this, but there's all sorts of jobs where, um, your, your job may be admirable and it may be. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: Right. Even something that's sort of quote unquote necessary for society. But I got into a big dust up with someone who was an overroad trucker, right? And they were constantly, um, posting in the pub at, at back in the day. They were constantly posting how discouraged they were and, and how difficult their faith was and how much of a challenge it was to just remain faithful as a Christian. [00:48:27] Tony Arsenal: And I. Originally, I kind of naively and, and I think innocently said like, well, you know, like, have you talked to your pastor about this? And the person said like, well, I don't have a regular church because I'm always on the road. And I said like, well, there's your problem. Like there's the first step is like, figure out your local church thing. [00:48:43] Tony Arsenal: He said, well, I can't do that

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive deep into the intersection of pop culture, entertainment, and the Christian life. They explore how Christians can engage with leisure and media in a way that glorifies God, applying biblical principles like those found in 1 Corinthians 10:31 and Ecclesiastes 3. The hosts emphasize the importance of balancing Christian liberty and holiness, while also recognizing the practical role of rest and recreation in human flourishing. Through personal anecdotes and theological insights, they provide listeners with a framework for discerning entertainment choices, encouraging believers to enjoy God's good gifts without compromising their faith. Key Takeaways: Entertainment is a Gift from God: Leisure and entertainment, when approached rightly, are part of God's common grace meant to refresh and restore us. Biblical Principles for Consumption: 1 Corinthians 10:31 reminds Christians that all activities, including entertainment, should glorify God. If an activity cannot do so, it may be unlawful. Christian Liberty and Prudence: Decisions about pop culture often fall under the domain of Christian liberty, constrained by wisdom and prudence rather than legalistic rules. The Importance of Rest: Rest is not just about recharging for productivity; it is a God-given means of worship and human flourishing in its own right. Guarding Against Sinful Influences: Christians should be cautious of consuming media that promotes sin, as it can subtly shape their worldview and lead them astray. Personal Convictions and Context Matter: What is permissible for one believer may not be wise or beneficial for another, depending on individual struggles and contexts. Recreation Should Point Back to God: Whether through beauty, creativity, or storytelling, entertainment can lead Christians to worship God when consumed with discernment. Entertainment as a Gift from God Tony and Jesse emphasize that entertainment, when properly enjoyed, is a part of God's common grace. This means that activities like watching a movie, playing a video game, or reading a novel are not inherently sinful but can serve as vehicles for rest and refreshment. Drawing from Ecclesiastes 3, they highlight that God has ordained seasons for both work and rest. True rest, they argue, is not about escaping responsibilities but about enjoying God's gifts in ways that glorify Him and restore our energy to serve others. When approached with discernment, even "secular" forms of entertainment can reflect God's creativity and goodness. Applying Biblical Principles to Entertainment The hosts discuss how 1 Corinthians 10:31 provides a litmus test for media consumption: "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." This principle challenges believers to ask whether their entertainment choices align with God's glory. For example, content that promotes or glamorizes sin—whether through violence, sexual immorality, or blasphemy—should give Christians pause. However, they also note that some depictions of sin in fiction can serve a redemptive purpose, such as illustrating the consequences of sin or the beauty of redemption. The key is to thoughtfully evaluate whether the media being consumed inclines the heart toward holiness or pulls it away from God. Christian Liberty and Prudence Tony and Jesse stress the importance of Christian liberty in deciding on entertainment choices, while cautioning against legalism. They explain that Christian liberty does not mean a license to sin but rather the freedom to make God-honoring decisions in areas where Scripture does not provide explicit commands. Prudence and wisdom must guide these decisions. For instance, a particular TV show or game may be permissible for one believer but harmful for another, depending on their personal struggles or circumstances. This underscores the need for self-awareness and reliance on the Holy Spirit to discern what is spiritually beneficial. Quotes: "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. If we cannot glorify God in an activity, it's likely unlawful for us as Christians." – Jesse Schwamb "Recreation is not just about recharging for productivity; it has its own value in glorifying God and enjoying His good gifts." – Tony Arsenal "Every story worth telling reflects, in some way, the greatest story ever told: redemption through Christ." – Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript: [00:00:30] Introduction and Episode Overview [00:00:30] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 457 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:37] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where sound doctrine meets brotherly love. Hey brother. [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So we're in a whole series of little one-off conversations, all kinds of things that just pop into our head, or we've had on a list somewhere that we thought, you know what? [00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Someday we should talk about that. And I think we've got another great. Conversation coming up on this episode, we're gonna get into a little bit about how Christians should interact with and consume pop culture maybe, and especially things like entertainment. And I know that there are gonna be people out there thinking, wow, these guys are gonna do what reform people always do. [00:01:15] Jesse Schwamb: They're just gonna come out into their lawn, they're gonna shake their fists angrily at the sky, they're gonna yell at the birds. It might not be that way, loved ones, but you're gonna have to wait. We're gonna talk about it. It's gonna be good. We're gonna get after it. We all do it. Everybody loves a bit of a to consume pop culture. [00:01:31] Jesse Schwamb: Is it possible it might be somewhat of a gift that God has given us? Who knows? Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but we'll get to that. But first, let's affirm with or denying against something in the world. So what have you got for us on this episode, Tony? [00:01:45] Tony's Frustrating Customer Service Experience [00:01:45] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna keep mine super short. It was a frustrating customer service experience, uh, that I had today. [00:01:52] Tony Arsenal: In general, I, I have, uh, Comcast or Xfinity Internet in general. I'm actually very pleased. Their service. Um, I, I actually find them to be responsive. Um, I've managed to get a decent price. I don't have Comcast television, so that's probably part of it. Um, but I, my cable modem. Slash router, which I've had, I don't know, probably for like eight years. [00:02:13] Tony Arsenal: Um, it finally died, so I bit the bullet and bought a brand new one. And those man, those things have gotten expensive and um, you know, it's supposed to be a super easy installation. You plug it in, you do the little thing on the app and it didn't work. So I had to connect with customer service through the app, and. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: It seemed like everything was going fine. And then all of a sudden I get a link in my text message and the lady who's chatting with me on the thing says, well just, just scroll down and click on where it says accept and then hit okay. And I was like, that seems sketchy. So I read it and she was, she had sent me a link to change my internet service. [00:02:51] Tony Arsenal: Uh, she was giving me a 90, an $80 promotional price for the first year. Uh, but then it went up to $140 after the first year. Wow. So I went back to the chat app and I said, I'm sorry, I, I must have miscommunicated something. I don't need to change my service. I just need to activate my modem. She said, oh, no, no, you're not changing your service. [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: And I said, no, I, I definitely am. She goes, let me explain this to you. And she went through and tried, like, she went through and she's like, your speed is this and you're paying this. And I said, and I said, with all due respect, I'm not stupid. I can see that you're trying to change my service and I'm just not interested. [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: And I had to fight with her for like 10 minutes before I finally said, just activate my modem, please. I'm not interested. Full stop. So I, I guess I'm just denying. I get, I get it. Like, you gotta try to upsell. I used to be in sales. I don't have any problem with you trying to upsell. I, I don't even necessarily have a problem with you trying to be clever and like, you know, intentional about how you upsell. [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Like there are ways that you can do that without being deceptive. This was just deceptive. So I'm not denying Comcast. I'm pleased with my service. I'm denying this particular person and this really just underhanded tactic. It was really, really upsetting. I mean, [00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: there is nothing like good customer service, right? [00:04:04] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, the converse of that is what a blessing it is, and it's kind of a lesson to all of us and how we treat one another. That is whether we're providing the service or we ourselves are consuming it. It is just such a blessing. It's like so easy and so light when you get somebody who really wants to help you. [00:04:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And. You know, I would not have changed my service, but I can imagine that somebody who was looking and was interested, if she had just said straightforwardly, like your internet that you have is far slower than the modem that you're, you're installing, right? Um, we can get you a faster internet speed and give you a, a large discount for the first year. [00:04:42] Tony Arsenal: Are you interested in that? I think a good portion of people would just say yes. Even if they didn't think it through, they would just say, oh yeah, sure. Faster speed, less money. They, they wouldn't think it through. That's not deceptive. If you present an option, honestly, to a consumer and they take it and they didn't understand the terms, that's not deception. [00:04:58] Tony Arsenal: That's on them as the consumer for not thinking through what they're purchasing. This was just straight out, like, don't read it, just click on it, it's fine. Totally underhanded, deceptive. Um, and, and you know, I work in. Sort of a kind of customer service and I just can't imagine ever doing something that shady and calling it customer service. [00:05:15] Tony Arsenal: I was, I was very disappointed. [00:05:17] Jesse Schwamb: But I mean, everybody has customers, right? Yeah. Everybody has somebody they're responsible to, and everybody has people to whom they should be responsible in the kind of care. Whatever you provide to somebody, whether it's your family, it's in your church, it's in your job, so, right. [00:05:30] Jesse Schwamb: I like that. It's a good reminder because again, there's nothing like walking away from experience and being like, wow, that was so easy, or that person was so good to help me. Yeah. Or like they really got me to the end that I was looking for and they did it and I felt better afterwards than I did before I called. [00:05:43] Jesse Schwamb: That should be like our goal, like what does great look like in every interaction that we can have with somebody. [00:05:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:05:52] Jesse's Affirmation: The Plana App for Plant Care [00:05:52] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going back to the app. Well, and by that was a really weird saying of just, I'm gonna affirm with another app. So I really love a good house plant, but I'm no good at the house plants. [00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: I really like the way they look. It's a lot of pressure with house plans. Maybe people feel this way. Maybe you've not purchased a house plant or been like, I can't be that person. So here's something that I can confirm with for you. Loved one, it's a app called Plana. It's a Swedish plant care app, and it's designed to help both like novice people like me and I guess really experienced plant owners keep their house and garden plants healthy, which I know sounds super boring, but hear me out on this. [00:06:27] Jesse Schwamb: This is what's cool about this. It offers smart, personalized care reminders for things like watering, fertilizing, misting, repotting, and it has all these things where if you, there's paid subscription for this as well, which I do not have, but I looked at all the options. There's some super cool things like you can use your phone to sense where your plan is sitting, how much light it's getting to really tell you, is this the right spot for my plant? [00:06:49] Jesse Schwamb: Because you know, like some plants are like, we need partial sunlight and partial shade and afternoon sun and direct sun, and you need to water me, but not too much and not so often, but just the right amount. It's a lot of pressure. So it's got all these fun features in it, including like an AI doctor. So you can take a look or a picture of your plant rather, and not only will it describe what plants you have, of course, but it will help you say like, Hey, this thing is not healthy. [00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what you should do. So the plant app is, might be your foray into feeling more confident about having some greenery in your house. [00:07:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, I could kill a plastic plant. I could kill like a fake plant, uh, without trying, uh, but I might check this out. You, you've seen my, my home. You've been here? [00:07:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Um, my, my house is, it's a, a mobile home and so it's, it's just one long line and it's situated like almost directly east, west. So I get direct sunlight over the top of the house pretty much the entire day. And we have really beautiful, um. Violet cone plants and some other like lilies on one end of the house, um, that the previous owner planted. [00:07:46] Tony Arsenal: They're very beautiful, but um, they just get baked in the sun and there's gotta be something that can be done to sort of help them through this. Maybe it's more water or something like that. So maybe I'll check this out and see if that can help. 'cause they're not, they're not doing great. Um, they, they didn't bloom very well this year. [00:08:00] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm wondering if it might be, I dunno, it's been kind of dry, um, this part of the year, more than usual, so I'll check that out. That sounds like a good recommendation. There's a couple of different apps. This one sounds good. [00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's, there's certainly a lot of stuff that you can get free in it. [00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, they want to upsell you like you just talked about. They're, no, no, they're no Comcast, but they definitely would like you to purchase all their other features, and I bet for the right person, it's totally worth it. But I feel so much more confident now. Mainly just the watering. If you surprised how like much pressure. [00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, like aloe plants and also I'm learning the names of my plants finally, which makes me feel more connected. This, this is, listen, this is like the app to help you take dominion in your house over house plants, which sounds like the lowest form of taking dominion, but honestly still shows how complex and complicated life can be and how God has made everything in this really wonderful way. [00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: So I'm feeling more empowered to love my plants and to hopefully keep them growing. I was gonna say for generations, but I doubt that I'll be passing on links, plants for generations, but hopefully getting just lots more greenery into our living spaces, which is always super fun. [00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, I would like to have more plants, but I just, with between toddlers and dogs and my ability to kill anything green that is in my home, uh, I don't think it would be good. [00:09:19] Tony Arsenal: That's your, your sister who is My wife does a good job with plants, but even the, yeah, she does, even, even that the plants die just because they're around me. I'm not sure what it is. I have like a, I hear it, listen, an aura of some sort that just kills plants. [00:09:32] Discussing Christians and Pop Culture [00:09:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's difficult sometimes to grow in soil, which is, I, one of the things I presume Christians often feel like when they're in the culture and when, mm-hmm. [00:09:41] Jesse Schwamb: Do. Do you like that segue? We're so good with this. I do. And when you are consuming, let me say pop culture, or you find yourself in a place where you want entertainment and you want to rest, and I think if you're a Christian for any length of time, you start to ask yourself, okay, so what's my place in all of this? [00:09:59] Jesse Schwamb: And what's interesting when I thought about this topic, which you graciously put forward for us, was that I think several times we've mentioned kind of cultural things often in the affirmation and denial section. Yeah. Where we've. Maybe come hard alongside something and said, this seems good. And other times we've definitely said, this seems very, very bad. [00:10:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. But we've never really had just a pretty honest conversation about, okay, so how does the Christian discern, what is the Christian's role in making that discernment? And how can we, like our house plants grow and flourish in that kind of environment to such a degree that we are actually bearing fruit by the power of the Holy Spirit. [00:10:36] Jesse Schwamb: And yet, of course, separate. From that culture in which we still find ourselves. [00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think it bears saying, um, much of popular culture, media, whatever it might be, a lot of it is going to be a matter of Christian prudence and liberty. And I think it's important to say that because I think, you know, we'll talk about, we'll probably talk about like principles we use to try to determine whether we, you know, individually or, or whatever. [00:11:04] Tony Arsenal: We're going to watch something or listen to something, but. The, the Bible doesn't say like thou shalt, and I'm gonna say this example, and it's a little bit ironic because this is actually a show that I think is pretty black and white. But it, it's not like the Bible says, thou shalt not watch Game of Thrones. [00:11:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. Um. Right. Like thou shalt not. Listen to, I don't know who the kids are listening to. Britney Spears like tells you when The last time I listened to popular music was, is Britney Spears is the name on my mind. But like thou shalt not listen to, I dunno, Paramore, I don't know name. Name your pop culture band. [00:11:37] Tony Arsenal: The Bible doesn't give us explicit instructions about specific bands. Movies, shows, insert, pop, you know, novels, whatever it might be. It does give us some wisdom principles. And then of course, there's God's moral law, uh, but even God's moral law does not. Necessarily apply directly to every pop culture choice we might make. [00:12:04] Tony Arsenal: So I'm sure Jesse and I don't have identical opinions. I'm gonna guess that our thoughts are probably pretty close just because, you know, we're influenced by the same people and we, we are running in the same broader theological circles, but they're probably not identical. There are probably things that Jesse would watch that I'd go, oh, I don't know if that's such a great thing for me. [00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: And there's probably things I would feel comfortable with that Jesse might say, eh, I'm not so sure about that. This is usually a matter of Christian liberty constrained by Christian prudence and wisdom. So before we get into any of the nitty gritty or any specific talk of anything particular, I wanna get that out there because yes, we have to be wise, we have to. [00:12:44] Tony Arsenal: Apply God's law, but we are not able to bind other people's conscience and you are not able to bind other people's conscience based on your own particular opinion about something or your own interpretation of how the Bible is to be applied to a particular decision. Um. You know, again, you can speak into a situation. [00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: You, especially if you have a relationship with someone, you can say, Hey, I don't think this is healthy. I don't think this is in conformity with God's law, but at the end of the day, that is between that Christian and God as to whether or not they are applying God's law appropriately and, and in to an extent, and to a great extent between them and their elders. [00:13:21] Tony Arsenal: Right? The elders have a, a different role of authority in a, in a Christian's life than other Christians do. And [00:13:27] Jesse Schwamb: it might be worth saying as we begin that we're kind of talking about this, I think in part because we all feel that pull to consume pop culture, and what I kind of teased at the beginning is this idea, is it possible that, I think we're really speaking about consuming that in a kind of a way of entertainment of like rest and relaxation. [00:13:45] Jesse Schwamb: Principally there. There are other reasons I think as well, and that might be to edify, to educate, but I think principally when we feel this compulsion to say, well, I like you, just give great examples. Listen to music, watch a sporting event, watch tv, read something fiction or nonfiction. I think what we're after there is this idea that we want to rest and that understanding that entertainment is a part of the rest that God intends for us to enjoy from our labors is by itself, full stop, a legitimate thing. [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: So the question is. A little bit more nuanced. Where is that line? You already gave, I think a pretty good example of something that you and I would agree on would say that that's a bridge to fight across. Don't watch that thing, right? Yeah, do something else. But the question is how did we get to that place in making that judgment? [00:14:28] Jesse Schwamb: And is there a place in there where we would say, well, the Bible is an explicit about, let's say certain medium or even like specific things within that medium that it is outspoken enough that we ought to say. No, we will not do that. So I think this is what we're after in part, is this proper use of entertainment involving, of course, analyzing worldviews, appreciating elements of beauty and creativity, acknowledging reflections of truth. [00:14:53] Jesse Schwamb: But that also that in some way, all of this is God's gift to us. That while the Bible does not give us a great deal of explicit statements about how believers are to view entertainment, there is much we can draw out to scripture by way of good and necessary consequence to borrow language from somewhere else. [00:15:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:15:11] Applying Biblical Principles to Entertainment Choices [00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: And I also think too, like this is a question that often is presented as very simple and very like cut and dry, but it can be a lot more complicated than you think. And here's an example, and we don't have to get into this particular example, but let's do it. You know, I think a lot of times people, um, will take the example of blasphemy. [00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: Right, and a show that is, or a, a video game, whatever it is, content that is intentionally blaspheming, God is something that at a bare minimum, Christians should be very wary of participating in and consuming just because it, it's something that openly dishonors God is probably not something Christians should be eager to participate in or to consume, but. [00:15:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, there, there are instances where a, a show or a, a video game or a book contains a fictionalized blast swimming of God that actually may serve the greater purpose of glorifying God. So if you think of like, um. Think of a, a book or a a movie where there is a character who is a non-Christian, and over the course of the book, they are shown to be blaspheming God, and then they experience a conversion. [00:16:24] Tony Arsenal: And the purpose of the, the purpose of the book is to glorify God through this conversion redemption story. That it character in that fictionalized universe is blasphemy God within that universe, right? Or within that fictionalized story. But the purpose of that blasphemy is actually to serve the greater purpose of glorifying God. [00:16:46] Tony Arsenal: So that's not to say that automatically anything like that gets a pass, right? That can be done well, that can be done poorly. That can be done in a way that actually glorifies God. It can be done in a way that doesn't actually hit the mark. But it's not as simple as to say, this character in this show. [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: Engaged in blasphemy. Therefore, we should never consume that show. We have to do some actual thinking and some actual analysis of what's going on in order to. Understand whether or not it actually is violating God's law. Now there are probably some things, um, you know, like graphic sex scenes. There's really no reason, um, for Christians to feel drawn to shows that contain that. [00:17:25] Tony Arsenal: Again, this is, this is, um, I, I, at this point in my life and I, in earlier periods in my life, I might have been more black and white on this. I am not here to tell you what you can and can't watch. That's not my role. I'm not the Holy Spirit. I'm not your pastor. I'm not any of the persons or people who have an obligation to tell you what is or isn't, right? [00:17:46] Tony Arsenal: Like I'm not that person. But I cannot think of personally a reason why a Christian would, would need to, or should ever participate in like enjoying a show that contains graphic sex scenes. Um. The people making those have to sin in order to make those scenes right. So there are, there are things we should consider. [00:18:12] Tony Arsenal: Are kind of always off board, right? It's always off board to do physical harm to somebody in the service of making a movie, right? So if you have a movie where people are, are actively trying to hurt each other in order to produce the film, I'm not sure that we should participate in that. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I knew that was going on in a film. [00:18:28] Tony Arsenal: I don't, I don't, you know, again, other Christians might, and we can have a conversation about that, but we have to think about those things. Do the actors. Do the people who are creating the content, do they have to sin in order to create it? If that, if the answer is yes, we as Christians, I think should be extremely, extremely wary of, of even watching or consuming those things. [00:18:49] Tony Arsenal: So those are the kinds of questions and situations that I think need to be list like thought about as we approach pop culture. But I also think, Jesse, you know, you made the point to that. Popular culture, entertainment broadly is a gift from God for us to enjoy. Right? And it's okay to enjoy it. It's okay for us to participate in that. [00:19:09] Tony Arsenal: You know, we're not, we're not the people who are gonna say to you like, well, you know, every minute you spend, uh, reading, I don't know, uh, reading will of the many, every minute you spend reading Will of the many you could spend witnessing to people, right? So therefore, you should never read Will of the many or The Hobbit or whatever it might be. [00:19:27] Tony Arsenal: Um, but we should think carefully about what we consume, how much of it we consume, when we consume it, all those are questions that the Christian needs to ask themselves. [00:19:35] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I think the broad test here is actually not that difficult to comprehend. It's probably more that we sometimes hesitate to apply it because we're afraid of what it might mean for the stuff that we're consuming. [00:19:46] Jesse Schwamb: So again, like ceasing from our work in order to rest holds us together like that, that is something that God gives us as a pattern relaxation that we should take joy in. It must be the right amounts of lawful entertainment or consumption of all of this stuff in pop culture, but it is there. I think like even God gives it our own cultures as a means for us to find that kind of rest and to find some comradery and solidarity even with those in whom we interact and live with. [00:20:13] Jesse Schwamb: I think all of that's fine. Like you've said, it gets a little tricky when we start thinking about, well, where is that appropriate line? What is our conviction? But I think part of the problem with that is that we might not be seeking out conviction for ourselves. We not be asking because we hate to find that there is conviction in things that we're watching because there's gonna be a lot of things'. [00:20:31] Jesse Schwamb: That society's gonna be preoccupied with for entertainment for its own sake. And again, it's an indicator that everybody, men and women, even children, are seeking rest from the burden of their work and that rest is okay. Even that itself, like you're saying, Tony, it's interesting. I think so much we're gonna come back to is this idea of it. [00:20:47] Jesse Schwamb: Is, are we redeeming what we're doing in this process? Are we being not just thoughtful about discerning, adjudicating, or interrogating what we're watching and listening and reading, but as we do it, are we thoughtful people? Are we seeing the themes even in those joyous things that we find as entertainment that draw us back to the goodness of God that explains something about the world he's created or his own character finding? [00:21:10] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, that in every story is just a reflection of the greatest story ever told. Like, yeah, all of those themes, all the things we are drawn to that we gravitate towards. That move us. All of those things still come from God. And so therefore, even our entertainment can serve this purpose of not just alleviating our minds and bodies from the burden of ongoing labor in a fallen world, but can also draw, draw us back to God's common grace and his particular grace for his people who are always sinners. [00:21:34] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the the first test. I think it's the most simple one. And everybody's gonna throw their listening devices at the wall because it's the one that's the most straightforward. It's the one you might've been thinking you're gonna get to eventually, and let's just get it out of the way. I don't say that because it's not worthwhile. [00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: I say it because it's exactly the kind of worthwhile test that we should apply, and it applies perfectly in every situation. And that's the Apostle Paul setting out in one Corinthians 10 31. Here it is. This is like. You know, top 20 reform verses whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. [00:22:07] Jesse Schwamb: So the beauty of this is I think just first pass, first blush, top of the house. If we cannot engage in an entertaining activity in such a way as to glorify God, then it's just unlawful. And by way of contrast, if you can, then we're justified in viewing it as a gift of God's common grace. I, I just throw it out there to start with. [00:22:26] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that it's not that we found that this particular test has been tried and left wanting, but rather we haven't tried it very well. Oftentimes. Yeah. At least for my own sake. And instead we say, well, the Bible just isn't clear. But if you're, watch your point, Tony. If you're watching something that is gratuitous in any way, and you stop and say. [00:22:44] Jesse Schwamb: Am I glorifying God in the consumption of this? I think it's really difficult to make a strong argument that in some way you are actively, not just passively and saying like, well, it's okay and there's gonna be a redeeming story plot in here somewhere, I hope. But are we actively, whenever, whenever we're doing or we're consuming these things, are we actually glorifying God? [00:23:02] Jesse Schwamb: Is God glorified in. What's happening with my mind, my thoughts, my body, my eyes, my conversations, how this shapes me, how this changes my worldview. If we have to answer that God is not glorified there, then to my view, it's unlawful. And I think also in the eyes of the Apostle Paul. [00:23:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:23:20] Personal Convictions and Christian Liberty [00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think something that is important to, um. [00:23:24] Tony Arsenal: Comment on and think about when we sort of apply that test, that test really has more to do with what's going on in our heart. Yes. When we are consuming any particular part, you know, any particular media than it necessarily has to do with the media itself. I think there are some things, um, that. Just cannot be consumed to the glory of God. [00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: Right? You can't watch pornography to the glory of God, like you just can't do it. Um, you can't, you can't watch people murder each other for, you know, to the glory of God. But the vast majority of things that are out there, um, the, the, the question you're asking is not primarily grounded in the content itself. [00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's grounded in. What the content does to us and in us and how we process it. And I think that's why I, you know, I always wanna say for most things, this goes back to Christian Liberty and. Christian Liberty is not a license to sin. It's, it's a freedom to, um, to obey, right? It's a freedom and it's a range of possibilities to obey God in different ways, in different situations, rather than some tightly constrained, tightly restricted behavioral code, right? [00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: There is a law. God gives us a law. We talked about this at length when we did the 10 commandment series. He gives us a law, but this law is a set of 10 principles for godly living. Not a, an exhaustive list of do this, don't do that. Right? So the seventh commandment, you know, for media. Is this inclining my mind towards chastity and purity of thought, right? [00:25:02] Tony Arsenal: For those of us who are married, is this likely to, um, create a barrier in my relationship with my wife, or is this likely to enhance the relationship I have with my wife? Is this. Particular thing I'm doing, this video game that I play, is this likely to draw my attention away from my children when they need me? [00:25:19] Tony Arsenal: Or is it something that I have that is likely to increase my ability to pay attention to my children? Or am I able to properly balance the demands that my children have and the needs my children have while I still play this video game, just as an example. So we can still use those 10 principles to help guide us, but the way that those. [00:25:38] Tony Arsenal: The way that the law is applied to these questions and how it is, is gonna be unique, I think almost, almost across the board for things. It's gonna be unique to each individual, right? One person may be able to, yeah, like my big thing and I like, okay, I'm just gonna put this out there. I'm just gonna lay myself bare here. [00:25:55] Tony Arsenal: If I could say that I have one actual real addiction in life, it's probably World of Warcraft, and I know that sounds probably really silly, but even me saying and saying the phrase World of Warcraft, in my mind I'm like, could I figure out a way that I could go back in and play that game? Like they call it World of Warcraft for a reason. [00:26:14] Tony Arsenal: It is super addictive and it's very easy to fall back into it. I'm sure there are people out there who can perfectly just fine, could manage their life of having children and a wife and a job and, you know, service to the church and still play World of Warcraft for a couple hours a week or, or an hour every night and still be just fine. [00:26:33] Tony Arsenal: I cannot do that. If I subscribe to World of Warcraft, it will imbalance my life such that something that God is calling me to, that I know God is calling me to, is going to be pushed out of the way for that. So for me. I cannot fulfill my obligations and participate in that particular element of pop culture. [00:26:52] Tony Arsenal: And I think there's probably something like that for most of us. Again, someone else may be able to do that just fine. There are probably many people who can do that just fine. That's a problem in my own heart. And the way I address that is by saying, this is just not healthy for me, so I'm not gonna do it. [00:27:05] Tony Arsenal: And whether that's a TV show or a a book series. I know people who won't read certain books because they get so immersed in it and it sort of like shapes their worldview in really unhealthy ways. They just won't pick up a particular set of novels or a particular book series. Um, you know, I've told this story that I, I don't remember where I was flying. [00:27:24] Tony Arsenal: Um, it wasn't. I must have been flying to Minnesota. That's the only place I've traveled by air for quite a long time. Um, I stopped in the, the bookstore, the, you know, the, the souvenir store, whatever. And I forgot a, I forgot a book at home of all the people to forget a book. And I was like, you know, there's this big hub lu about Game of Thrones and you know, maybe the book is better than the show. [00:27:43] Tony Arsenal: And like, you know, I can control what I'm imagining and it's easier for me to skip over parts and nobody is having to make graphic sex scenes. Even if they're sort of portrayed in the book. I can maybe do this. I got like. A chapter and a half into the book and was like, I can't, this is not healthy for me. [00:27:57] Tony Arsenal: It's not helpful. It doesn't glorify God. It's not true. It's not noble, it's not honorable, it's not worthy of praise. Right. I'm just gonna, and I just threw the book away. I spent like $15 on a book and then I just threw it in the garbage. Um, and I don't say that to like prop myself up as some bastion of self control. [00:28:10] Tony Arsenal: That's just in that moment I made the right decision. But there are things like that, that you are gonna have to look at your own self to say, I cannot participate in this, even if someone else might be able to. I personally cannot. And I think that's really the more the question we need to ask then. Are there universal principles that say, I can't do A, B, or C? [00:28:30] Tony Arsenal: It's really about my heart in the moment and how my heart is affected by a given thing. [00:28:36] Jesse Schwamb: Much like the 10 Commandments. This whole conversation in the scriptural, I think admonishment here is very much about freeing us up to enjoy freedom, to have joy in these things. It's not about just saying, well, here's a list of things that you can't do. [00:28:51] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't that unfortunate? Everybody else can do them, but you can't enjoy them. Instead, Scott saying like you're talking about Tony, no put to death all these evil, selfish things that are in your life that actually destruct. And instead, enjoy entertainment and pop culture in such a way that not only glorifies him, but does truly refresh you so that you're not drawn back into patterns of selfish behavior or sinful thinking, or all kinds of, you know, sexual frivolity that's going to lead your mind and your body and your heart astray or into places that you'll end up getting hurt. [00:29:25] Jesse Schwamb: I think. The beauty of this is it just provides us with a way to think and discern about the stuff that we're consuming so that we're ensured. Then it's fulfilling the right purpose that God has for in our lives, and that's freeing. When you get to a place where the scripture says like, here's the way walking it, then you know that you can walk confidently and you can enjoy that very thing. [00:29:46] Jesse Schwamb: One great example, I think that sit on both sides, we can talk about in some ways how there's like a, a lack of, or like kinda a, a moral perspective with certain types of medium of expression. One of those I think famously is, is music. Luther famously said, musical performance is principle among the entertainment that God has graciously given us to enjoy in life. [00:30:06] Jesse Schwamb: And yet who hasn't been part of either music that has been absolutely refreshing, absolutely life-giving, absolutely calming and beautiful in the same way that like David played before King Saul when he was distressed. And maybe you've had this experience where there's some kind of soothing melody that was just a bomb to your soul and your condition in that state. [00:30:25] Jesse Schwamb: And then also. On the other side, who hasn't listened even to some really catchy music that's been filled with like sexual perversion, misogyny, violence themes that at the end of it, you may have enjoyed the beat, but it's, it's just left you kind of feeling gross. And disgusted. Yeah. Even with yourself for enjoying it. [00:30:45] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that's what we're after here is like to be freed up to enjoy this kind of entertainment in a way that it is truly the gift that God has given rather than something that enslaves us. And I'm gonna argue that it often does. Not because it's just addictive, though. [00:30:59] The Influence of Entertainment on Our Lives [00:30:59] Jesse Schwamb: It can be, but because it does actually influence us deeply and, and I think one thing is clear is that all the things we're talking about here that's present in entertainment, and I'm talking all the way back to things like athletic performance, all of this beauty and creativity, art expressed both in film literature and in music, that all of those things God has given us for our good and for his glory. [00:31:22] Jesse Schwamb: So he wants us to enjoy them. But sin is of course gonna take all those things and pervert them and twist them in such a way that they no longer become life-giving or become life taking. The problem is they take life incrementally and on the margin. Yeah. And so that you rarely feel that that's going on. [00:31:37] Jesse Schwamb: You rarely sense the divide of the chasm that's creating in your thought patterns, in the way that you interact with people, even the way that you interact with God until, not that it's too late, but that's, you wake up and you think, my goodness, how far have I gone from what I think this is really intended to be in my life? [00:31:52] Jesse Schwamb: Then maybe addiction does crop up in such a place that you're like this. This has gone too far. But I think, again, like many things in life, when God says no, what he's saying is, do not hurt yourself. I know better. I want you to enjoy these things. So I see this as like our opportunity to like empower to come with the scriptures, bearing full weights on what we consume, not because we need more laundry lists of things to avoid, but because we need direction on what is best to sink our entertainment time and resources into. [00:32:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I, I think that's a good, um, that's a good, maybe a next test right? [00:32:25] Balancing Time and Entertainment Choices [00:32:25] Tony Arsenal: Is we only have a finite amount of time. We, we, and, and I'm not even just talking about like in general, we have a, I'm, I'm talking about like we have a finite amount of discretionary time. We all have commitments, we have jobs, we have families, we have church commitments, we have friends that we wanna maintain relationships with. [00:32:43] Tony Arsenal: The amount of time we have to just like sit down and consume pop culture is limited no matter, no matter who you are. Some people have more, some people have less. Um, we can consume. Ev, every time we say yes to one thing, we're saying no to another thing, right? There is, um, there is popular culture or content out there that absolutely is encouraging, right? [00:33:05] Tony Arsenal: And absolutely is going to enhance your life, and it's going to enhance your piety and your devotion to God, right? And I'm not just talking about like Christian content. There's decent Christian content out there. There's decent Christian films, there's decent Christian music, there's decent Christian fiction writing. [00:33:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there's probably even decent Christian video games, although I haven't run into them, I'm sure they're out there. Um. But that's not even what I'm talking about. [00:33:30] Finding Value in Non-Christian Content [00:33:30] Tony Arsenal: There there are, there are non quote, non-Christian, um, right there. There's General grace. Common grace works out there that will, they'll, they'll make you smarter. [00:33:41] Tony Arsenal: It will make you healthier. It'll help you enhance your life. It'll help you enjoy your world more. It'll help you enjoy and see the beauty in God's creation. More I've, I've commented, um. At length, and this isn't necessarily pop culture, although it kind of bridges the gap a little bit. I've commented at length on how beneficial in my life, Ryan holiday's, writings have been. [00:33:58] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. That's what he doesn't get everything right. There are some things he gets very wrong, um, but. I, I read, um, Ryan Holiday's, stoic. Stoic Works, and I wouldn't say he's a scholar of stoicism. He's more like a modern day stoic philosopher. I read his works and I benefit from him. It makes my life better. [00:34:17] Tony Arsenal: It makes my devotion to God better. It makes my piety better. It makes me a better husband and a better father, and a better employee just in general. It makes me a better person. Not because Ryan Holiday is some special thing, but because he seems to have tapped into common grace principles that other writers haven't, I have a choice. [00:34:33] Tony Arsenal: You know? Do I wanna read that or do I wanna read some? Um, and don't get me wrong, I enjoy manga, but like, do I wanna read some. Meaningless, pointless manga that is just the same story over and over again with different animation. You know, some people might find that the reading the manga is the right thing for them and that enhances their life. [00:34:51] Tony Arsenal: Right? But for me, I've had to make that calculation. I only have so much time. I only have so much time to read. Um, and, and this is might be a shock to people. There are times where I'll have the decision between reading a theology book and. Being caught up on my reading in Daily Stoic, I most often will take time to read the Daily Stoic instead of reading something. [00:35:10] Tony Arsenal: For example, I'm way behind on Daily Devotion or Daily Doctrine by Kevin De Young Way Behind, but I'm not behind on, on Daily Dad or daily Stoic from Ryan Holiday. That's not because one, one thing is better than the other necessarily, but what I need in my life and what God is calling me to. The writings by di by Ryan Holiday right now are more effective in a, in accomplishing those tasks and into shaping me into who I believe God wants me to be. [00:35:37] Tony Arsenal: So that's the other question we have to ask is what? [00:35:40] The Importance of Rest and Leisure [00:35:40] Tony Arsenal: What is the most beneficial thing for us at the moment? It could be some sort of mindless cotton, candy entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that. This isn't, this isn't me saying like find, this isn't like hustle culture for pop culture. Like sometimes you just need to veg out and do something that doesn't require any brain power, and that's what God is, is giving you as a gift for your rest and your re recuperation. [00:36:04] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes it's a hard hitting. Heavy theology. Sometimes you need to sit down and read some Bob Ink again, not that that's pop culture, but I think the broader principle applies. Maybe you need to sit down and read some Turin, or maybe you need to like scroll Instagram for a little while and watch funny cat videos, right? [00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are good things. They're all gifts from God in the proper proportions and at the proper time, and that's why this can be such a complicated question is because we have to have a good, robust. Honest reflection of who we are and what we need in order to make these, these decisions. Um, and it really is about what do we need in the moment? [00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: What is God calling us to? What is the wise thing to do right now, the wise thing to consume right now? Um, and, and I think that's a good test. Is this the most effective thing and accomplishing in my life what needs to be accomplished, right? That could be all sorts of goals, but is this the most effective thing to accomplish that at my life right now? [00:36:57] Tony Arsenal: If so, and it's not sinful, and then have at it enjoy. You know, I think those are the kinds of questions we need to ask, and I don't think we often ask that. I think we are often passive. And neutral in decisions about what we're gonna watch for pop culture. We're driven by what is the most popular thing on Netflix? [00:37:15] Tony Arsenal: What does the algorithm recommend for us? Or what is being talked about at work? Or what do I have on hand? What do I have easy access to? Um, I think we need to be more active and intentional in our decisions on this towards those ends. [00:37:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. And there's no accounting for taste, right? I mean, part, part of time we get caught up in that, so we'll just say, well, maybe what I'm experiencing, because I'm a Christian, I'm trying to process this, has to do more about like particular medium or the taste or the type of genre or something. [00:37:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'd encourage us to not get too caught up in that. I think what you're saying is really, really helpful. The idea here I think is more about embracing the fact that we don't have to be productive all the time. And that we don't have to be, and I use this with great love like puritanical in the sense that, you know, well, if Jonathan Edwards didn't laugh and the Lord sakes that was inappropriate, then I shouldn't either. [00:38:05] Jesse Schwamb: And by virtue of that fact, then I should really have this incredible puritanical work ethic where even when I'm at home or every second that I have, I should be reading something. And if I'm gonna read something, it should be productive. Or if I'm watch tv, it should be something kinda documentary. I need to learn and fill my mind and make use and redeem every second of that time. [00:38:18] Jesse Schwamb: What if part of that redemption. Is enjoying entertainment for the way that God intended it to be, and that when he makes beauty and creativity and artistic expression, and again, we're presuming that this is the right amount of a lawful entertainment, that all of those things are for their own enjoyment because they point back to the creator. [00:38:40] Jesse Schwamb: Just by themselves. Like there doesn't have to be an ulterior motive. You don't have to justify it. You don't even have to feel guilty about it. That in fact, because we're contingent beings and therefore we have limited energy supply and unlimited amount of time and space, that all those things com continue to propel us towards some kind of desire for a lawful entertainment that leads us into rest. [00:39:02] Jesse Schwamb: Even as you're saying Tony, if that's rest for 10 or 15 minutes before, it's the next thing to feel this compulsion instead. To have to again quote unquote redeem. That time by being super productive is I think a fool's errand because we are as much made to work as we are made to rest. And in that rest, I think sometimes we actually find for some of us an easier time identifying and worshiping God in that risk. [00:39:26] Jesse Schwamb: Because in our work, we are busy in our work and we often get caught up in our work thinking all of our work is all of us. And so we rest and we find enjoyment in something. We take a walk, we listen to a beautiful piece of music. We spend some times just conversing about nothing with friends. We sit outside and enjoy beverages together that something happens sometimes in that space. [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: We're in the pause of that in the fact that there is beauty that seemingly is without productive purpose, even though I'd argue there is one. It's just hidden behind it and we fail to see it. We are drawn to the fact drawn to say, God, are you not good? For all of your gifts. And of course he's good in our gifts of work. [00:40:02] Jesse Schwamb: He's also good in our, our gifts of rest. But he's given us this gift as a form of entertainment in our own pop culture for us really to enjoy. But you're right, if we get it twisted such that we consume too much of it, or if we misapply that, I think we're just gonna live a less abundant life. So again, like the task here is not, don't do any entertainment. [00:40:23] Jesse Schwamb: Get all, get away from all the entertainments. Like what? Like your point, Tony, I, and I've heard Christian say this, I think there can be a brow beating here where it's like, well, couldn't you have used that time more productive? Like they had a couple more minutes, like maybe you really should have prayed harder or. [00:40:38] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe you should have read that other chapter in the Bible. Maybe you should gone back through your genealogies again and read those because you know that you don't read those particularly well. Or maybe you should have studied this thing or that thing. And instead is there a kind of worship that truly gives itself over to resting in God in the form of appreciating entertainment as he's created it for us to give us that kind of rest? [00:40:59] Jesse Schwamb: I would say yes. It's just that we often don't talk about it and sometimes we do talk about it. It's hard to bring it up 'cause you're gonna. You're gonna feel guilty. Like, can you imagine somebody saying to you, you know what? I'm just finding so much rest these days in this, uh, little game on my phone that I get to play. [00:41:15] Jesse Schwamb: You would be like, you, you might, if you're, if you're like, you know that person, well, you might be like, that's weird. I guarantee though, if that happened to me, I'd walk away and then when I was with my wife later, I'd be like, let me tell you what this weird thing this person said. You know what I mean? [00:41:27] Jesse Schwamb: But what, what, yeah. We need to think more like that. Not as a liberty to forsake or abdicate responsibility, but instead to actually be well rested for the responsibility in the task, the good works that God has created for us. [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:42] Personal Experiences with Entertainment [00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: And maybe here's like a concrete example is, um. You know, I, um, I work at a local hospital and my job is relatively intense. [00:41:53] Tony Arsenal: Um, in terms of emotional investment, I'm a patient relations supervisor, so I, I'm in charge of the department that hears all of the complaints from patients, which means we often hear some really frustrating stories about people's healthcare, and it can be very emotionally draining. And so I also, um, I also ride the bus home now. [00:42:15] Tony Arsenal: My, my vehicle is broken right now. Hopefully we're gonna get fixed soon, but I ride the bus home and for the first couple, I don't know, for the first week that I was riding the bus, I was like, I gotta use this time. I gotta read something. I gotta make sure I'm doing that right. And what I've learned actually is if I just take the 45 minutes that I'm on the bus and waiting for the bus and I just sort of zone out and play Pokemon Go. [00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: By the time I get home, I'm ready to engage with my kids better. I'm ready to engage with my wife better. I'm less likely to feel, uh, just drained and tired because I'm actually letting my brain sort of reset and I'm building that buffer. So something as simple as like. Playing a relatively mindless game on my phone for a half hour, 45 minutes while I ride the bus and wait for the bus, um, helps me to fulfill my obligations as a father and a husband in a more present way. [00:43:09] Tony Arsenal: Again, like if you wanna ride the bus and you wanna read a fiction, or you wanna do theology, like that's on you, that's your decision to make. But. I know people who would say to me, um, you really should be using that time for something more productive than playing Pokemon Go. And, and yeah, maybe like, maybe there are times that I should be more productive and maybe there are times that other people should be less productive. [00:43:32] Tony Arsenal: Like I think that's kind of what we're getting at here is. Productivity or spiritual growth or pi, like those categories are, each of those are good categories. Like productivity is not a bad thing. Um, personal devotion is certainly not a bad thing. [00:43:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:43:47] Tony Arsenal: But it's not the only thing. And we also, I think we act as though our lives can be this sort of like perfect integrated balance when really like we have to be able to sort of recognize that. [00:44:02] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes doing nothing has its own utility. Like that feels like a weird thing to say, but I I, I'm with you here and, and maybe this is kind of how we bring the episode down to an end is I do think. There is this, obviously the Sabbath principle, the rest principle. Um, but God also gives us rest in these other small ways. [00:44:25] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes not so small, but small ways in the rest of our life. And I don't think that we should bear any shame or guilt or feel like we're less Christian because we take advantage of or make use of those. Those sort of like smaller opportunities to rest and you know, recreation is recreation. Like that's, that's that etymology is not a false etymology. [00:44:49] Tony Arsenal: That's where the word comes from. And it's because we often need to do these sort of leisurely things in order to be able to then go back and put forward the effort that we need. And the other thing just, I feel like we're tying. Leisure to the ability to produce in a way that may actually also be unhealthy. [00:45:09] Tony Arsenal: Leisure is not necessarily the ends, the means to being able to be productive. Right? Leisure serves its own purpose. It has its own use, its own way to glorify God. Yes, it does enable us often to be able to come back and put our nose to the grindstone, but we shouldn't just think about it as like, well, this is just, this is just my recharge period. [00:45:30] Tony Arsenal: We don't think about sleep that way. I don't think we think about sleep in, in a fashion of saying like, well, I've gotta sleep so that I can just get up and go to work the next day. And productive. I think we recognize that our bodies need to rest and there's a blessing and a joy in being able to close our eyes and sort of drift off and have dreams and rest, and that our body recuperates itself, I think we should think of leisure in a similar sense, and recreation and pop culture all kind of play into that. [00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's right on. I mean, it's one of those things where we're certainly not saying that there isn't rest in prayer and in daily worship and consuming and studying the scriptures, there's certainly a rest in all those activities too. In some ways, I think we're presuming that we are trying to incorporate a balance into our lives, and that part of that balance is just rest for its own sake. [00:46:12] Jesse Schwamb: The enjoyment of that and when you're truly, I think, enjoying that rest, whatever it is, one we do not long feel guilty because we have processed. And pass everything to the sve of the scriptures and say, this is glorifying to God is for my goodness, for his glory. So therefore there's no, as it were like condemnation for me in this because I have a clear conscience about it. [00:46:31] Jesse Schwamb: And then in addition to that, it does provide us with perhaps, again, that lovely contrast between working hard and then having. Some period of which we are abstaining from that work and from that labor. And in so doing we find different ways to please and to worship God. We find that we see his character reflected in different ways. [00:46:49] Jesse Schwamb: And so in that way too, it reminds us that we are, like I said before, like completely contingent, we get tired, we get exhausted. Like there's only so much the mind can do and so much it can handle. And so by. Willingly accepting and leaning into that, not again, in a way that takes us away. We use as liberty to say, well, I, you know, I really should spend some time before the Lord in prayer. [00:47:10] Jesse Schwamb: I really should spend some time in, in daily particular worship, but you know what? I really need to rest instead. Like of, of course, that itself, we should be convicted about, uh, because then we're using entertainment such a way to distract us. Suppose this. Way from God rather than toward him. But the Bible is so clear, like you're saying, Tony, that there's all these seasons in life and the more I think about those seasons, the more I wonder if we tend to treat them too discreetly. [00:47:34] Jesse Schwamb: And in these two, like, kind of like prolonged periods, what if a season is for an hour? What if a season is for a day? What if a season is for five minutes? So famously, of course, when we have the teacher writing. Ecclesiastes chapter three, some of these famous words, I think we just fail to take them to heart. [00:47:51] Jesse Schwamb: Listen to this beautiful contrast, and I think it really fits in with what we're saying here about the, the ability to rightly consume entertainment and pop culture in such a way that it is glorifying to God and our understanding of it in our application of how it gives us true rest. So it writes things like this. [00:48:09] Jesse Schwamb: There's a time to kill and the time to heal. A time to break down, a time to build up, a time to weep, and a time to laugh, A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones and a time to gather stones together. A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing a time to seek and a time to lose. [00:48:26] Jesse Schwamb: A time to keep, and a time to cast away. A time to tear. A time to sow, a time to keep silence and a time to speak, a time to love, and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. So it's very clear that God has given us, I think all of these wonderful things to enjoy as part of his character, as demonstrations of the fact that he is a God who is loving and love always leads to giving. [00:48:51] Jesse Schwamb: And so he gives us beauty in arts. In music, in literature, in screen, and of course then we should recognize because those are things from God and we ought to that. Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Heavenly Father who is above that. It is the prerogative of the devil to twist and bend those things in such a way that we feel to see them as God's gifts and said, see them as our rightful consumption. [00:49:12] Jesse Schwamb: Such a way that enslaves. Changes our mindset, pulls us farther away from God. So I think part of it's just going into everything with the pun intended, with eyes wide open. So hopefully some of these tests have been helpful. I think people probably have, because like you said, Tony, there's a lot of Christian liberty here and maybe some point. [00:49:29] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I was gonna ask you like what's I, I'm not gonna ask you this because I know you're gonna ask it back to me, but like what would be maybe something you consume that others might be able. Ooh. Um, but I don't want you to ask that back to me. We could do that. We could do that if you want to. [00:49:42] Tony Arsenal: Um, yeah, let's, let's do that in a future episode. [00:49:43] Tony Arsenal: I think that'd be fun. Well, we'll [00:49:44] Jesse Schwamb: save that for another time. So everybody keeps listening. [00:49:46] Encouraging Community Engagement [00:49:46] Jesse Schwamb: But I think one of the things that we should be encouraging our listeners to do, the people who are part of the reform brotherhoodhood, is come hang out online. In this place called Telegram, which is just a chat messaging app and we have a little corner, a protected corner of the world. [00:50:00] Jesse Schwamb: There is a group of people who are like-minded listening to our conversations and participating in their own. And the way they participate with us is you can message in the app, they've got a bunch of channels of different topics, so you can get there by going to t.me/reform brotherhood. I bring this up now, not just to advertise as usual. [00:50:17] Jesse Schwamb: Because we want you to come be a part of this, but I would love to hear from others because we have a channel in there that's just about the conversations we're having on the podcast. Come share some of the practical things that you use, the tests that you have, the conversations that you bring forward to help you discern what kind of pop culture you're consuming. [00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Don't just take our word for it. Let's hear what the Holy Spirit. How he is leadi

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb take a deep dive into the power and importance of personal testimonies. Starting with their own faith journeys, they share how God's providence and grace have shaped their lives, from childhood faith to adulthood. Tony reflects on his conversion as a teenager and the profound changes that followed, while Jesse recounts the blessing of knowing Jesus from a young age and the role his parents played in nurturing his faith. Together, they explore the beauty of God's work in every stage of life, emphasizing that all testimonies, no matter how different, point to the same faithful God. The conversation highlights the transformational nature of faith and the importance of remembering and sharing how God has worked in life. Tony and Jesse encourage listeners to reflect on their own journeys and to share their stories of grace with others. They emphasize that testimonies are not the gospel itself but are powerful tools for pointing people to the gospel and encouraging others in their faith. The hosts also discuss the significance of ministering to children and cultivating childlike faith. They reflect on how simple faith can lead to profound spiritual truths and encourage parents, teachers, and those in children's ministry to continue planting seeds of the gospel. The episode serves as a reminder to remember God's faithfulness, share testimonies with others, and celebrate the unique ways God works in each of our lives. Key Points: The Power of Testimonies: Sharing personal stories of faith helps encourage others and highlights God's providence and grace in our lives. Childlike Faith: The importance of nurturing faith in children and the beauty of their simple yet profound trust in God. God's Providence: Reflecting on how God's hand guides us through life, even in ways we may not realize until we look back. Remembering and Sharing: Testimonies are not the gospel itself, but they are valuable tools for pointing others to Christ and reminding ourselves of God's faithfulness. Encouraging Faith Conversations: The hosts challenge listeners to share their testimonies with others and reflect on what God is currently doing in their lives. Questions for Reflection: How has God's providence been evident in your life when you look back on your faith journey? What role have others played in nurturing your faith, and how can you encourage others in their walk with Christ? When was the last time you shared your testimony with someone? What impact did it have? How can you cultivate a childlike faith and sense of wonder in your relationship with God? What is one way you can minister to children or younger believers to help them grow in their faith?

In this episode of Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal tackle the often-overlooked topic of spiritual warfare, focusing on the biblical truths about angels and demons. The discussion begins by affirming the reality of Satan and his demons as active agents in the world, working to oppose God and deceive humanity. Drawing from both Scripture and personal experiences, the hosts emphasize the importance of being aware of the spiritual battles that Christians face daily and how these confrontations are a central part of our spiritual journey. The conversation highlights the need for a balanced approach to understanding demonic activity—avoiding both sensationalism and denial. Jesse and Tony explore the biblical descriptions of angels and demons, noting their similarities and differences while pointing out the limitations of demonic power under God's sovereignty. They also discuss how demons often operate through deception, appearing in forms meant to confuse or distract, and how believers can recognize and resist these schemes. This episode encourages Christians to take spiritual warfare seriously by relying on the supremacy of Christ, equipping themselves with the armor of God, and remaining vigilant against the enemy's tactics. Whether you're new to the concept of spiritual warfare or looking to deepen your understanding, this conversation offers practical insights and theological depth to help you stay rooted in faith. Key Points: The Reality of Spiritual Warfare: Satan and demons are real, active forces working to oppose God and deceive humanity. Christians must take this reality seriously while remaining grounded in Christ's supremacy. Biblical Perspective on Angels and Demons: Angels and demons share the same origin as created beings, but their purposes and moral alignments differ significantly. Demons often use deception to lead people astray. Practical Steps for Spiritual Readiness: Christians are called to be vigilant, equipping themselves with the armor of God and staying rooted in Scripture to recognize and combat demonic influence. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding the biblical reality of angels and demons change the way you view spiritual warfare? What steps can you take to better equip yourself for spiritual battles in your daily life? In what ways can the church help believers remain aware of and prepared for the reality of spiritual warfare?

In this engaging episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal dive into the rich theological and practical significance of the Sabbath in Reformed theology. They begin by discussing the dual aspects of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance and a ceremonial practice, explaining how it is both a moral obligation for all humanity and a type that pointed forward to Christ's redemptive work. The hosts emphasize that the Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden, designed for rest, worship, and spiritual renewal. The conversation explores how the Sabbath transitions from the seventh day in the Old Testament to the first day, the Lord's Day, in the New Testament. This shift highlights its fulfillment in Christ's resurrection, which establishes a new rhythm of worship and rest for Christians. The hosts also tackle the complex issue of Sabbath observance in persecuted regions, addressing how believers might navigate the challenges of gathering for worship in secrecy or under threat. Throughout the episode, Jesse and Tony reflect on why the Sabbath remains vital in the Christian life. They emphasize that while Christ is our ultimate rest, the weekly observance of the Lord's Day continues to foster spiritual growth, communal worship, and reliance on God's provision. The discussion is punctuated with practical insights, theological clarity, and a pastoral heart for the global church. Key Points: The Sabbath as a Creation Ordinance: The Sabbath was established at creation as a perpetual moral obligation for all humanity, commemorating God's work in creation and providing a rhythm of rest and worship. The Sabbath's Fulfillment in Christ: As a ceremonial law, the Sabbath pointed forward to Christ's redemptive work, which fulfills the deeper rest and reconciliation it symbolizes. The Transition to the Lord's Day: Following Christ's resurrection, the Sabbath shifted to the first day of the week, reflecting the new creation in Christ and the church's ongoing commitment to gather and worship. Sabbath Observance in Persecuted Regions: The hosts thoughtfully consider how Christians in areas of persecution might navigate the challenges of gathering for worship, emphasizing the importance of wisdom, humility, and reliance on God's providence. The Sabbath as a Blessing, Not a Burden: The weekly observance of the Lord's Day is an opportunity for spiritual renewal, worship, and rest, reminding believers to trust in God's provision and fully rest in Christ. Questions for Reflection: Why is the Sabbath considered a moral obligation for all humanity, and how does it reflect God's character? How does the shift from the seventh day to the first day (the Lord's Day) enhance our understanding of Christ's work in redemption? In what ways can Christians balance rest and worship on the Sabbath to experience its full blessing? How should Christians in persecuted regions approach Sabbath observance while navigating safety concerns? What practical steps can you take to make the Sabbath a meaningful day of rest and worship in your life?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal takes listeners on a deep dive into the art and purpose of effective note-taking, particularly within the context of Christian living and theological study. With Jesse absent for this episode, Tony explores practical techniques to help Christians retain, process, and apply what they read, whether it be from Scripture, theological works, or even secular writings. Highlighting his own personal process, Tony emphasizes the importance of reading with intention and grounding all study in the ultimate goal of glorifying God and enjoying Him forever. The episode details Tony's structured note-taking process, which includes reading with a clear purpose, capturing highlights, organizing thoughts systematically, and reviewing and reusing notes for practical outcomes. He emphasizes the importance of using tools that work for the individual, whether digital platforms like Obsidian markdown or analog methods like commonplace books. The central theme throughout is that note-taking is not just about acquiring knowledge, but about using that knowledge to reflect God's glory in everyday life. Tony also ties the practice of note-taking to theological principles, referencing the Westminster Catechism's teaching that every action should aim to glorify God. He challenges listeners to examine their own study habits and consider how they can better use what they learn to serve their families, churches, and communities. Whether through teaching Sunday school, sharing the faith with children, or preparing sermons, the episode demonstrates how intentional note-taking can enhance spiritual growth and equip believers for ministry. Key Points: The Purpose of Note-Taking: Note-taking is not an end in itself but a means to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. It helps Christians reflect on and apply what they learn in practical ways. Tony's Note-Taking Process: A step-by-step guide that includes reading with intention, highlighting key insights, organizing notes with tags, and reviewing them regularly for reuse. Tools and Techniques: Recommendations for using tools like Obsidian markdown or analog methods, emphasizing flexibility and personalization in developing a system that works. Practical Applications: The importance of using notes for teaching, sermon preparation, family devotions, and theological discussions, making knowledge actionable and impactful. Theological Foundations: Connecting note-taking to the broader Christian life, including meditating on Scripture and theological works as a means of sanctification. Questions for Reflection: How does your current note-taking process help you retain and apply what you read? In what ways can you ensure that your study habits glorify God and enhance your enjoyment of Him? What tools or methods could you adopt to make your note-taking more effective and organized? How can you use what you learn to serve your church, family, or community more effectively? What intentions or goals should you set before starting your next reading or study session?

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into the letter of Philemon, focusing on the transformative power of the gospel in relationships. They examine Paul's heartfelt appeal to Philemon on behalf of Onesimus, a slave who has become a believer and is now returning as a brother in Christ. The discussion reflects on the profound theological implications of forgiveness, reconciliation, and Christian unity, as well as the way the gospel subverts societal roles while upholding spiritual kinship. Jesse and Tony explore the delicate yet powerful language Paul employs in his letter, highlighting how he appeals to Philemon's faith and love to guide his actions. Paul's request challenges Philemon to see Onesimus not just as a slave but as a beloved brother, emphasizing the radical equality that the gospel brings to all believers. The hosts unpack the layered dynamics of this relationship, showing how it serves as a practical application of the theology outlined in Colossians. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of living out the gospel in everyday relationships. Through Paul's example, believers are encouraged to prioritize love, forgiveness, and humility, embodying the transformative work of Christ in their interactions with others. This episode offers rich insights into how theology intersects with daily life, challenging listeners to reflect on their own relationships in light of the gospel. Key Points: Paul's appeal to Philemon demonstrates a balance between authority and love, showcasing how Christian leaders can guide others in faith. The gospel transforms relationships, breaking down societal barriers and emphasizing spiritual equality among believers. Forgiveness and reconciliation are central themes, as Paul challenges Philemon to welcome Onesimus back not as a slave but as a beloved brother in Christ. Questions for Reflection: How does the gospel challenge societal roles and transform relationships in your life? What can we learn from Paul's approach to addressing sensitive and difficult situations with love and tact? How does recognizing the spiritual equality of all believers impact your interactions within the church and beyond?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal dive into Colossians 2:1-5, exploring the riches of assurance in Christ and His sufficiency as the gospel message, means, and goal. The discussion emphasizes the importance of knowing Christ as the central figure of the gospel and how understanding His promises leads to true assurance of salvation. Paul's words in this passage remind believers that Christ is the mystery of God revealed, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. This assurance is not based on human works or intellectual reasoning but on the unshakable promises of God. The conversation also delves into the connection between assurance and firmness of faith, highlighting how a deep, experiential knowledge of Christ enables believers to resist the plausible arguments and false teachings that can lead to doubt and instability. The hosts reflect on how true assurance equips believers to stand firm in their faith, even in the face of cultural pressures and competing philosophies. They stress the sufficiency of Scripture in revealing Christ and transforming lives, calling listeners to embrace the promises of God as the foundation of their faith. Finally, the episode examines how assurance in Christ fosters a deeper sense of unity and love among believers, as Paul prays for the Colossians to be knit together in love and encouraged by their shared faith. The hosts challenge listeners to rest confidently in Christ's finished work, engage with their local church community, and trust in the covenant promises of God, which guarantee eternal life for His people. Key Points: Christ as the Gospel Message and Means: The episode underscores that Christ is not only the center of the gospel message but also the means and goal of salvation. Believers are called to apprehend Him by faith as revealed in Scripture. The Riches of Assurance in Faith: Assurance of salvation is grounded in the promises of God, not in human works or intellectual reasoning. This assurance enables believers to resist false teachings and remain firm in their faith. The Sufficiency of Scripture: The Bible sufficiently reveals Christ as the true mystery of God, equipping believers with the knowledge and wisdom needed for life and godliness. Returning to Scripture is essential for deepening one's understanding of Christ. Unity in Love and Faith: Paul's prayer for the Colossians highlights the importance of being knit together in love and encouraged by a shared faith. Assurance in Christ fosters unity within the body of believers. Resisting Plausible Arguments: The hosts discuss how assurance in Christ protects believers from being deluded by plausible but false arguments, emphasizing the need for a firm foundation in Christ-centered theology. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding Christ as the center of the gospel transform your approach to Scripture and theology? In what ways can you grow in assurance of your salvation through God's promises? How can the sufficiency of Scripture guide you in resisting cultural pressures and false teachings? What practical steps can you take to foster unity and love within your local church community? How does reflecting on God's covenant promises deepen your confidence in His faithfulness?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal tackle an issue that resonates deeply with many Christians: how to love and remain content in imperfect churches. The discussion begins by addressing the challenges of navigating differences in worship practices, theological preferences, and church traditions while maintaining love and unity within the body of Christ. The hosts emphasize that no church is perfect and that contentment often requires humility, submission, and a deep understanding of God's sovereign placement of His people in specific congregations. Tony and Jesse explore the regulative principle of worship, explaining how it guides many churches and believers in determining what is appropriate for corporate worship. They also highlight the importance of approaching church leadership with charity and seeking to understand the reasoning behind certain practices, even when they differ from personal convictions. Through their reflections, they encourage listeners to prioritize the peace and purity of the church over secondary or tertiary disagreements. Ultimately, the hosts remind listeners that Christ has placed His name on His church, including its diverse and imperfect members. They challenge believers to love their local church deeply, embrace its members as family, and trust that God is working through the imperfections to sanctify His people. Whether wrestling with worship preferences or theological nuances, the episode calls Christians to a higher standard of love, patience, and submission to Christ's body. Key Points: Understanding Church Contentment: Contentment begins with recognizing that no church is perfect and trusting God's sovereignty in placing us within specific congregations. Navigating Worship Differences: The regulative principle of worship provides a framework, but differing interpretations require humility and charity in handling disagreements. Prioritizing Church Peace and Unity: Maintaining the peace and purity of the church often means setting aside personal preferences and embracing the diversity of the body of Christ. Practical Steps for Growth in Contentment: Engage with church leaders to understand their reasoning, approach disagreements with humility, and focus on the spiritual disciplines evident in the congregation. The Call to Radical Love: Loving the church means loving its people as Christ does, despite their imperfections, and committing to serve and grow together as a family. Questions for Reflection: What steps can I take to grow in contentment with my local church, even when it doesn't align perfectly with my preferences? How can I approach church leadership with concerns about worship practices in a way that fosters unity and understanding? In what ways am I prioritizing love and unity in my church over personal theological or practical preferences? How does recognizing the church as Christ's body change how I view its members and practices? Am I willing to submit to the church's leadership and trust God's placement of me in this congregation, even when I disagree with certain aspects?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into the theological depths of the sacraments, focusing particularly on the Lord's Supper as articulated in the Scots Confession. They explore the intricate relationship between faith and the sacraments, emphasizing John Knox's perspective on the spiritual and mystical union believers experience through the Lord's Supper. The hosts discuss how this union is not merely symbolic but a profound means of grace that assures believers of their faith and salvation. The conversation also touches on the nature of assurance in faith, as discussed in the Westminster Confession, highlighting the tension between the assurance given by the Holy Spirit and the believer's subjective experience of it. They stress that the sacraments, while ordinary in appearance, are extraordinary in their spiritual significance when apprehended by faith, serving as a means for believers to partake in the grace of God. Furthermore, Schwamb and Arsenal address the broader implications of sacramental theology within the church, including the importance of church discipline and the proper administration of the sacraments. They encourage listeners to reflect on their own experiences with the Lord's Supper, urging them to approach the sacrament with reverence and faith, trusting in the Holy Spirit's work to bring forth fruit in their spiritual lives. Key Points: The Lord's Supper is a means of grace that provides believers with assurance of their faith and salvation through a mystical union with Christ. The sacraments require faith to be effective, serving as more than mere symbols but as channels of divine grace. John Knox's theology emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between the signs and the realities they signify in the sacraments. Assurance of faith is a complex topic, with the Holy Spirit continually testifying to believers of their status as God's children, regardless of their subjective feelings. Proper administration and understanding of the sacraments are crucial for maintaining church discipline and spiritual nourishment. Questions for Reflection: How does your understanding of the sacraments impact your experience of the Lord's Supper? In what ways can you cultivate a deeper appreciation for the spiritual realities signified in the sacraments? How does the concept of assurance in faith influence your daily walk with Christ?

In Episode 422 of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal embark on a thorough exploration of the Lord's Supper, focusing on its representation in the Scots Confession. They delve into the concept of "real presence," discussing how the Holy Spirit actively unites believers with Christ through the sacrament of communion. This episode sheds light on the transformative nature of the Lord's Supper, emphasizing its role in enhancing spiritual life and fostering deeper union with Christ. Throughout the episode, the hosts tackle common misconceptions about the sacraments, clarifying that the real presence is not about the physical transformation of elements, but rather about the spiritual nourishment and union with Christ that believers experience. Jesse and Tony explore the theological significance of the sacraments within the reformed tradition, pointing out the distinctive differences between reformed perspectives and other Christian traditions such as Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism. Listeners are encouraged to appreciate the profound spiritual dimensions of communion, understanding it as more than a symbolic act. The episode culminates in the assertion that the Lord's Supper is a powerful proclamation of the Gospel, with its efficacy not tied to the moment of administration but extending into the believer's ongoing spiritual journey. Key Points: The episode emphasizes the concept of "real presence" in the Lord's Supper, highlighting the role of the Holy Spirit in uniting believers with Christ through the sacrament. Jesse and Tony address common misconceptions, explaining that the real presence involves spiritual nourishment rather than a physical transformation of the elements. The hosts explore the theological significance of the sacraments in reformed theology, contrasting reformed views with those of other Christian traditions. The episode underscores the Lord's Supper as a Gospel proclamation, with its spiritual efficacy extending beyond the moment of administration. Questions for Reflection: How does the concept of "real presence" in the Lord's Supper enhance your understanding of communion? What are the key differences between reformed and other Christian perspectives on the sacraments? In what ways does the Lord's Supper serve as a proclamation of the Gospel in your spiritual practice?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal engage in a discussion about the theology and significance of the sacraments, particularly baptism and the Lord's Supper, through the lens of John Knox's perspective as outlined in the Scots Confession. They begin by emphasizing the sacraments as more than mere symbolic acts, arguing that they play a crucial role in conferring grace and assuring believers of their salvation. This theological standpoint challenges the common view of sacraments as simple memorials or rituals, inviting listeners to explore deeper spiritual meanings. As the conversation unfolds, the hosts delve into the historical and theological contexts of sacramental practices, drawing on confessional statements and insights from Reformed theologians like Knox. They discuss the sacraments' role in marking God's people and differentiating them from those outside the covenant, highlighting their function as visible signs of God's promises. Moreover, they address the assurance and spiritual nourishment that believers receive through these practices, emphasizing the sacraments' tangible aspects and their importance in the life of the church. Throughout the episode, Jesse and Tony encourage listeners to reflect on the profound spiritual realities conveyed through the sacraments. They urge believers to reconsider their understanding of these sacred practices and to approach them with a heart open to receiving God's grace. By exploring the complexities of sacramental theology, the hosts aim to enrich the listeners' appreciation for the sacraments as essential components of the Christian faith and as means of experiencing God's covenant promises in a tangible way. Key Points: The sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper are more than symbols; they confer grace and assure believers of their salvation. John Knox's perspective from the Scots Confession emphasizes the sacraments as visible signs of God's promises and their role in distinguishing God's people. The spiritual nourishment and assurance provided by sacraments highlight their significance in the life of the church and encourage deeper reflection on their meaning. Questions for Reflection: How do the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper serve as tangible expressions of God's covenant promises? In what ways can believers experience spiritual growth through participation in the sacraments? How can understanding the historical and theological context of sacraments enhance one's appreciation for these sacred practices?

In Episode 420 of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and his wife Ashley engage in a lively discussion centered around their favorite podcasts and personal anecdotes. The episode kicks off with Tony introducing Ashley as his co-host for the day, setting the stage for a relaxed and informal conversation. Ashley shares her insights on various podcasts that have captured her interest, notably highlighting her love for true crime and informative shows. Throughout the conversation, Ashley delves into the details of her podcast recommendations, starting with "Hooked," a gripping true crime podcast about the unexpected life of a Boeing employee turned bank robber. She also discusses "Criminal," a long-time favorite known for its quirky take on lesser-known crimes. The couple transitions into discussing more personal and practical podcasts like "Focus on the Family," which offers marriage and parenting advice, and "Toddlers Made Easy," providing helpful tips for parenting young children. In between podcast recommendations, Tony and Ashley offer glimpses into their family life, sharing humorous and heartfelt experiences. They discuss the dynamics of their home, including their toddler's recent antics and their dog's vigilant behavior. The episode wraps up with Ashley listing a few more podcast recommendations, leaving listeners with a sense of camaraderie and a wealth of new podcasts to explore. Key Points: Ashley's top podcast recommendations, including "Hooked" and "Criminal." Insights into practical podcasts like "Focus on the Family" and "Toddlers Made Easy." Personal anecdotes from Tony and Ashley's family life, adding a humorous touch. Questions for Reflection: What are some podcasts that have influenced your perspective on family and relationships? How can listening to diverse podcast genres enhance your understanding of different topics? What role does humor play in your own discussions about family dynamics and everyday life?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a thought-provoking discussion about the authority of church councils within reformed theology. They explore how church councils serve as a collective authority, combining the insights of individual ministers to make decisions that align with the marks of a true church. The hosts delve into the role of these councils in interpreting Scripture, addressing discipline matters, and applying biblical teachings to real-world situations. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize the Protestant struggle to balance personal interpretation of Scripture with the collective wisdom of church councils. The discussion also touches on historical and contemporary expressions of church authority, referencing key theological figures, confessions, and the tension between individual and collective authority. Tony and Jesse candidly share their personal challenges in articulating the intricacies of reformed theology, acknowledging the complexity of the subject and the importance of ongoing theological reflection. Their conversation highlights the significance of understanding the authority of church councils in preserving the purity of the gospel and maintaining a sincere devotion to Christ. Amidst the serious theological discourse, the episode is peppered with humor and light-hearted anecdotes, such as the idea of discussing theology over hot wings. This blend of rigorous theological exploration and relatable humor creates an engaging listening experience, encouraging listeners to delve deeper into their understanding of reformed theology and the authority of church councils. Key Points: Church councils serve as a collective authority in reformed theology, combining individual ministers' insights to uphold the marks of a true church. The hosts explore the tension between personal interpretation of Scripture and the collective wisdom of church councils in applying biblical teachings. The episode emphasizes the importance of understanding church councils' authority in preserving gospel purity and fostering sincere devotion to Christ. Questions for Reflection: How do church councils contribute to maintaining the marks of a true church? In what ways can Protestants balance individual Scripture interpretation with collective church authority? Why is it important to understand the historical and contemporary roles of church councils in reformed theology?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the fundamental concept of the authority of Scripture, emphasizing its unparalleled role in guiding and shaping the lives of Christians. They discuss how elevating human interpretation above the Bible can lead to dangerous theological errors, underscoring the necessity of submitting to the Scriptures as the ultimate authority. The conversation draws on biblical references such as Psalm 19 and 2 Timothy 3 to illustrate how God's Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit, is transformative and life-giving. The hosts delve into the role of the Holy Spirit in making the Word of God effectual, asserting that without the Spirit's illumination, the Scriptures would not have their profound impact on believers. They discuss how prayerful engagement with the Bible is essential, as it allows Christians to tap into the divine wisdom and truth contained within its pages. The episode also touches on John Knox's theology, highlighting how the character of God is mirrored in the Scriptures, which serve as a powerful tool for wisdom and salvation. Throughout the discussion, Tony and Jesse emphasize the importance of approaching Bible study with humility and a prayerful heart. They encourage listeners to actively engage with the Scriptures, recognizing them as God's direct communication designed to equip believers for every good work. The episode serves as a call to deepen one's relationship with the Bible, allowing its teachings to shape and enrich one's spiritual journey. Key Points: The authority of Scripture is paramount and must be revered above human interpretation. The Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in making the Scriptures effectual and transformative. Prayerful engagement with the Bible is essential for accessing its divine wisdom and truth. John Knox's theology highlights the reflection of God's character in the Scriptures. The Bible serves as a powerful tool for wisdom and salvation, equipping believers for good works. Questions for Reflection: How can we ensure that we are submitting to the authority of Scripture in our daily lives? What role does the Holy Spirit play in your personal Bible study, and how can you invite His guidance more fully? In what ways can prayer enhance your understanding and application of the Scriptures? How does recognizing the character of God in the Scriptures impact your relationship with the Bible? What steps can you take to deepen your engagement with God's Word and allow it to transform your spiritual journey? Links: How to Faith a Life (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJEdg8fhK0-boIiNkjUmUww)

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a profound discussion on the subject of church discipline, examining its biblical foundations and its vital role within the Christian faith community. They delve into John Knox's perspectives, underscoring the significance of spiritual authority and the unity that discipline brings to the church. Through a thoughtful exploration, they emphasize how discipline, when enacted with love and compassion, aligns with the heart of God and serves as a manifestation of His love in the lives of believers. Furthermore, the hosts highlight the critical responsibilities of pastors and elders in upholding church discipline. The conversation shines a light on the often unseen burdens that church leaders bear as they navigate the complexities of correcting and guiding members of their congregations. By drawing parallels to a surgeon's duty, they emphasize that discipline, much like a necessary operation, is an act of love aimed at healing and restoration. Tony and Jesse also address the challenges faced by church leaders in maintaining confidentiality and support during disciplinary proceedings. They encourage listeners to pray for their pastors and elders, recognizing the heavy burden of leadership and the spiritual battles that accompany it. The episode serves as a call to action for congregants to support their leaders, uphold the unity of the church, and engage in the discipline process with understanding and respect. Key Points: Church discipline is a profound display of Christian love that aligns with biblical principles. Pastors and elders carry a heavy burden in managing church discipline with discretion and compassion. The unity of the church is intricately linked to how discipline is handled, impacting the congregation's overall health. Questions for Reflection: How can church discipline be conducted in a way that truly reflects God's love? What role do congregants play in supporting their church leaders during disciplinary processes? In what ways can prayer and encouragement strengthen the unity of a faith community during challenging times?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a deep exploration of the theological insights of John Knox as delineated in the Scots Confession. The discussion intricately weaves through various theological concepts, emphasizing the critical role of the Lord's Supper as an integral part of Reformed ecclesiology. The hosts delve into the integration of the promises of God and how these shape the sacraments and the overall church practice within the Reformed tradition. The conversation further unfolds to address the essential marks of a true church, particularly focusing on the role of church discipline. Arsenal and Schwamb articulate the significance of administering sacraments in accordance with scriptural doctrines, highlighting the interconnectedness of preaching the Word, administering the sacraments, and exercising church discipline. These elements are presented as a cohesive framework that underpins Reformed church governance. Listeners are invited to reflect on the implications of Knox's theology for contemporary church practices, understanding how historical theological constructs continue to influence modern ecclesiological approaches. The episode provides an enriching narrative that underscores the necessity of adhering to scriptural mandates and the proper execution of church governance, making it an invaluable resource for those interested in historical theology and its modern applications. Key Points: The integration of the promises of God is central to the administration of sacraments in Reformed theology. Church discipline is a critical component of the true church, involving the withholding of sacraments when necessary. The Scots Confession offers foundational insights into Reformed ecclesiology and the role of the church in proclaiming the Gospel. Questions for Reflection: How does John Knox's theology influence contemporary Reformed church practices? What is the significance of the sacraments in maintaining the integrity of the church according to the Scots Confession? In what ways can church discipline be seen as an expression of grace within the church community?

In this episode, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal of the Reformed Brotherhood delve into the parable of the wheat and tares, offering an insightful discussion on the challenges of discerning true believers from false ones. They explore the theological implications of this parable, emphasizing the responsibility of Christians to recognize the true Church while acknowledging that individual believers do not hold the authority to make these determinations independently. This conversation underscores the importance of understanding the roles and responsibilities within the Church, particularly regarding church discipline and the power of the keys. The hosts discuss the historical and eschatological elements of the Church's authority, drawing connections to the biblical narrative of Adam's role in the Garden of Eden. They highlight the parallels between the parable's servants and the responsibility of guarding the faith, suggesting that vigilance and discernment are crucial for the Church's health and integrity. By examining the significance of ecclesiastical authority, Jesse and Tony provide a nuanced perspective on the visible and invisible Church and the implications of these distinctions for both individual believers and church leaders. Throughout the episode, the Reformed Brotherhood emphasizes the need for collective discernment within the Church, stressing that proper church discipline, including excommunication, has real consequences for believers. They advocate for a deeper understanding of ecclesiastical authority and the marks of the true Church to ensure that Christians are aligned with a congregation that faithfully adheres to biblical principles. Key Points: The parable of the wheat and tares illustrates the challenge of discerning true believers within the Church. Individual Christians do not have the authority to determine who is a true believer; this is the role of the Church's leaders. The Church's authority is rooted in biblical principles, with the power of the keys being a significant theological concept. Questions for Reflection: How does the parable of the wheat and tares inform our understanding of who belongs to the true Church? What are the implications of church discipline and excommunication for individual believers? How can Christians discern the marks of the true Church in today's diverse ecclesiastical landscape?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into Chapter 17 of the Scots Confession, focusing on the intriguing subject of the soul and its significance within Reformed theology. They explore how the soul's immortality is perceived in Reformed teachings and what this means for believers. The conversation is both insightful and engaging, with Jesse and Tony bringing their unique perspectives to the discussion. Amidst the theological discussion, the hosts engage in a lighthearted banter, touching on a humorous marketing strategy involving Oreo-flavored Coke. This unexpected detour provides a comedic break and encourages listener interaction, as Tony and Jesse invite their audience to share their thoughts and experiences with the product through their Telegram chat. The humor seamlessly blends with the more serious theological topics, making the episode enjoyable for a wide audience. Overall, the episode offers a nuanced exploration of the soul's role in Reformed theology while maintaining a light and approachable tone. The combination of humor, deep theological insights, and a call to community interaction makes this episode a standout for both new listeners and dedicated followers of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast. Key Points: Discussion on the soul's immortality as presented in Chapter 17 of the Scots Confession. Analysis of the soul's place in Reformed theology and its implications for believers. A humorous take on the marketing of Oreo-flavored Coke, encouraging listener engagement. Questions for Reflection: How does the concept of the soul's immortality influence Reformed theological beliefs? What are some of the challenges and opportunities in discussing the soul's role in faith with others? How can humor be effectively used to engage audiences in serious theological discussions?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a comprehensive discussion about the theological intricacies of the Lord's Supper. They explore the significance of the elements used in the sacrament, focusing on the symbolism of the bread and wine and their cultural analogs. The hosts emphasize the importance of understanding these elements within the context of different cultures, considering what they signify in terms of sustenance and celebration. The conversation delves into the debates surrounding the appropriate use of these elements in worship, particularly highlighting the differences between unleavened and leavened bread, as well as the use of wine or grape juice. Tony and Jesse discuss how various cultures might interpret these elements differently, stressing the need for a fittingness that aligns with the theological purpose of the Lord's Supper. They underscore the importance of maintaining the symbolic integrity of the sacrament while also being mindful of cultural contexts. Throughout the episode, the hosts encourage listeners to reflect on the broader theological implications of the Lord's Supper within Reformed theology. They discuss how the elements of bread and wine serve as vital symbols in Christian worship, representing Christ's body and blood, and how their proper understanding can enhance one's worship experience. By examining the theological debates and cultural considerations, the episode provides a rich exploration of the complexities and significance of the Lord's Supper in Reformed Christian practice. Key Points: The significance of the elements in the Lord's Supper and their cultural analogs. Theological debates surrounding the use of bread and wine in the sacrament. The importance of understanding the symbolism of the Lord's Supper within Reformed theology. Questions for Reflection: How do cultural differences impact the interpretation and practice of the Lord's Supper? What are the theological implications of using different elements in the sacrament? How does understanding the symbolism of the bread and wine enhance one's worship experience?

In this enlightening episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal engage in a profound discussion on the theological significance and intimacy of the Lord's Supper. They explore its role as a spiritual seal and a un...

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound concept of spiritual fellowship within the church, emphasizing its transcendence beyond race, geography, and time. They delve into John Knox's teachings, highlighting his perspective on the expansive and transcendent community of believers. This community is united in worship across different planes of existence, showcasing a unique spiritual unity that is not hindered by physical or temporal boundaries. The discussion underscores the significance of the Lord's Day, portraying it as a divine and communal experience that connects believers with those who have passed on. The hosts articulate how this day serves as a reflection of the permanent worship occurring in God's presence, fostering a deeper understanding and appreciation of God's power in preserving His church. They encourage listeners to ponder the nature of this spiritual unity and its implications for their faith. In addition to the theological exploration, the episode incorporates lighthearted moments, such as the humorous mystery surrounding Tony's salmon shorts and John Owen's legendary red boots. The hosts invite listeners to join their Telegram channel for further theological discussions, blending humor with deep insights to create an engaging and enriching listening experience. Key Points: Exploration of John Knox's teachings on spiritual fellowship and transcendent unity within the church. Emphasis on the unique nature and significance of the Lord's Day in connecting believers across time and existence. Incorporation of humor through discussions about Tony's salmon shorts and John Owen's red boots, encouraging listener engagement. Questions for Reflection: How does the concept of spiritual fellowship transcend physical and temporal boundaries in your understanding of faith? In what ways does the Lord's Day enhance your spiritual connection with other believers, both present and past? What role does humor play in your engagement with theological discussions, and how can it enhance your understanding of complex topics?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal explore the Scots Confession, focusing on the transformational role of the law in a Christian's life. They articulate how the law, once perceived as a source of condemnation, is redefined through the lens of Christ as a source of encouragement and guidance. This transformation is likened to the role of a personal trainer, pushing believers towards spiritual growth and good works. With insights from John Knox, they emphasize the nurturing aspect of the law, which now serves to build up Christian identity and foster holiness. The hosts draw comparisons between the law's guidance and that of a drill instructor, highlighting its purpose in instructing believers on what it means to be a follower of Christ. They delve into the nuances of how the law, alongside grace, plays a vital role in the Christian journey, shaping the believer's understanding of their identity in Christ. This episode provides a rich theological discussion that connects historical doctrinal insights with contemporary Christian life. Moreover, Jesse and Tony provide updates on their community, encouraging listeners to engage with theological discussions and support the podcast through various means. They invite the audience to participate in their ongoing exploration of theological themes, emphasizing the importance of community and shared learning in the journey of faith. Key Points: The law's transformation from a source of condemnation to a source of encouragement through Christ. Insights from John Knox on the nurturing and instructive role of the law in Christian life. The comparison of the law's function to that of a personal trainer or drill instructor, guiding believers towards spiritual growth. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding the law as a source of encouragement change your perspective on its role in your faith? In what ways can the insights from John Knox enhance your understanding of Christian identity? How can the analogy of the law as a personal trainer inspire you to pursue holiness and good works?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb engage in a rich discussion centered around the Scots Confession, particularly focusing on the themes of obedience, good works, and the enjoyment of God. They begin by addressing the common misconception that faith and obedience are synonymous, emphasizing that while the faith that saves is inherently obedient, the two are not the same. This distinction is crucial for understanding the nature of true Christian obedience. The hosts explore the concept of enjoying God, arguing that this is achieved through aligning oneself with God's commandments and engaging in the good works set forth by Him. They stress that these acts do not save us, but reflect a life already saved and in harmony with God's will. This enjoyment is not a passive state but an active pursuit of understanding God's character and living accordingly, facilitated by the Holy Spirit. Throughout their discussion, Tony and Jesse challenge listeners to rethink the role of obedience in the Christian life, encouraging a mindset that views serving God not as laborious but as a joyous expression of faith. They draw from both historical and contemporary theological insights to provide a comprehensive understanding of these themes, making the conversation relevant for believers seeking to deepen their relationship with God. Key Points: Distinction between faith and obedience: While faith that saves is obedient, obedience is not equivalent to faith. Enjoyment of God through good works: Aligning with God's will and performing good works reflect a life in harmony with Him. The role of the Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit empowers believers to pursue obedience and enjoy a deeper relationship with God. Questions for Reflection: How can we differentiate between faith and obedience in our spiritual practices? In what ways can we pursue the enjoyment of God in our daily lives? What role does the Holy Spirit play in empowering us to live obediently to God's commandments?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound connection between faith and good works as articulated in the Scots Confession. They delve into the understanding of what constitutes good works in the eyes of God, emphasizing that these actions should not only comply with a set of rules but should also reflect the moral essence of God's character. The discussion underscores the importance of integrating faith into all aspects of life, suggesting that every action, no matter how mundane, can be an act of worship if done with the right intent to glorify God. The conversation further extends into the realm of ethics, particularly examining how Christians should approach activities like sports and entertainment, such as boxing, through a theological lens. Arsenal and Schwamb propose a zero-based budgeting approach to consumption, encouraging listeners to critically assess the content they engage with and its alignment with Christian values. This reflective approach aims to ensure that all aspects of life, including leisure, contribute to the flourishing of human life and honor God's revealed will. Additionally, the hosts discuss the comprehensive nature of God's law, suggesting that all moral questions can be addressed by referencing the Ten Commandments and other scriptural teachings. They highlight the transformative power of good works, not only as acts of obedience but as expressions of love and gratitude towards God. This episode invites listeners to consider how they can exemplify God's character in their daily lives and challenges them to seek deeper understanding and fulfillment in their Christian journey. Key Points: Good works should reflect the moral character of God and extend beyond mere rule-following. The integration of faith into everyday actions transforms mundane tasks into acts of worship. Christians should critically evaluate their entertainment choices to ensure alignment with their faith. Questions for Reflection: How can you integrate faith into your daily actions to reflect God's character? In what ways can you reassess your entertainment and leisure activities through a theological lens? What are some ordinary tasks in your life that can be transformed into acts of worship?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the transformative power of the Holy Spirit and how it impacts the life of a believer. They delve into the teachings of John Knox and the Scots Confession, emphasizing the freedom from sin that Christians experience through Christ. The discussion centers around the importance of sanctification and how believers can practically apply their faith in everyday life. Tony reads a passage from Philippians, highlighting the call to live a life worthy of the gospel. The conversation examines how this call is a guiding principle for Christians, urging them to stand firm in their faith and strive for unity. They discuss the logical implications of being a new creation in Christ and how this transformation should be evident in one's behavior. The hosts also share personal anecdotes and examples to underscore the joy and excitement that come from walking in faith. They encourage listeners to set aside time to read the Scots Confession and experience the victory over sin that Christ provides. The episode concludes with a call to action, urging listeners to share the podcast with others who might benefit from its message. Key Points: The transformative power of the Holy Spirit and its impact on believers. Insights from John Knox and the Scots Confession regarding freedom from sin. The importance of sanctification and practical applications of faith. Examination of Philippians and the call to live a life worthy of the gospel. The logical implications of being a new creation in Christ. Personal anecdotes illustrating the joy and excitement of walking in faith. Questions for Reflection: How can you apply the teachings of Philippians to your daily life? What does it mean to live a life worthy of the gospel? How can you experience and manifest the victory over sin that Christ provides?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into the Scots Confession, focusing on the transformative power of the Holy Spirit and the role of good works in the Christian life. They discuss how the Holy Spirit aligns believers with God's will, leading to a life marked by good works. These works are not just a proof of faith but a vital part of living an abundant life in Christ. The hosts emphasize that while Christians will always struggle with sin, a life characterized by unrepentant sin is inconsistent with a true Christian confession. They stress the importance of ongoing self-reflection to ensure that one's life is marked by the presence and fruit of the Holy Spirit. This introspection is crucial for understanding one's spiritual state and aligning more closely with God's expectations. The episode also touches on the liberating power of the gospel, which frees believers from the impossible burden of earning salvation through works. Instead, good works are seen as a natural outflow of a life transformed by grace. The hosts invite listeners to contemplate their own lives and consider whether they are marked by the transformative presence of the Holy Spirit. Key Points: The transformative power of the Holy Spirit aligns believers with God's will. Good works are both an expectation and evidence of a true Christian life. A life marked by unrepentant sin is inconsistent with a genuine Christian confession. The gospel liberates believers from the burden of earning salvation through works. Self-reflection is essential to ensure one's life is aligned with the presence and fruit of the Holy Spirit. Questions for Reflection: Is your life marked by the presence and fruit of the Holy Spirit? Are there particular sins in your life that you are not wrestling with or fighting against? How does understanding the gospel's liberating power change your perspective on good works?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound topic of sanctification and its connection to good works, with a particular focus on the role of the Holy Spirit. They emphasize that the Holy Spirit is the primary agent in both justification and sanctification, drawing from key theological insights in the Scots Confession and other Reformed confessions. The hosts discuss how God's will and power are manifest in the believer's sanctification process, arguing that all spiritual progress is ultimately due to divine intervention rather than human effort. The conversation delves into biblical passages such as Romans 8 and Philippians 2 to illustrate their points. For instance, Romans 8 is highlighted as one of the most comprehensive chapters in the Bible regarding the gospel and the Holy Spirit's intercession. Philippians 2 is used to discuss the 'working out' of salvation, emphasizing that it is God who works in believers to will and to act according to His good purpose. These scriptural references are used to fortify the argument that sanctification is a divine work. Furthermore, the episode stresses the importance of historical Reformed confessions like the Scots Confession. Tony and Jesse argue that these confessions provide a 'pattern of sound words' that Christians are commanded to follow, offering a rich theological heritage that enhances contemporary understanding of faith. They encourage listeners to engage deeply with these foundational texts and share the insights gained with others. Key Points: The Holy Spirit is the primary agent in sanctification. Romans 8 and Philippians 2 provide key biblical insights into the process of sanctification. Historical Reformed confessions, such as the Scots Confession, offer valuable theological perspectives that should be studied and understood. Questions for Reflection: How does understanding the role of the Holy Spirit change your perspective on sanctification? What insights from Romans 8 and Philippians 2 can you apply to your daily life? Why is it important to study historical Reformed confessions, and how can they enrich your faith?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive into the Scots Confession, focusing specifically on "Faith in the Holy Ghost." They begin by discussing the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit and its vital role in convincing Christians that the Bible is the Word of God. The hosts emphasize that recognizing the Bible as God's Word is a marker of true faith, brought about by the Holy Spirit's presence in one's life. The conversation moves on to explore the unique approach of the Scots Confession in highlighting the work of the Holy Spirit. Tony and Jesse discuss how sanctification is entirely God's work, performed through the Holy Spirit, and how this sanctification manifests in the lives of believers. They stress the importance of understanding that good works are a result of the Holy Spirit's indwelling and not a product of human effort. Furthermore, the hosts reflect on the interconnectedness of the Trinity in the sanctification process, explaining how the Holy Spirit applies the salvation earned by Jesus Christ to believers. They also touch upon the assurance that comes from the Holy Spirit's work, encouraging listeners to seek assurance from the same testimony that originally brought them to faith. Key Points: The inward testimony of the Holy Spirit convinces Christians that the Bible is the Word of God. Recognizing the Bible as God's Word is a marker of true faith, made possible by the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is entirely God's work, carried out through the Holy Spirit. Good works in the life of a believer are a result of the Holy Spirit's indwelling. The Scots Confession uniquely emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit in sanctification. Assurance of faith comes from the Holy Spirit's ongoing work in believers. Questions for Reflection: How does the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit influence your understanding of the Bible? In what ways have you experienced the Holy Spirit's work in your process of sanctification? How does recognizing the Holy Spirit's role in your faith journey impact your assurance of salvation?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into the profound significance of Christ's ascension. They discuss how the ascension offers a preview of believers' eschatological hope and ultimate glorification. The conversation emphasizes that, in the final state, believers will be with God in a real and direct sense, mirroring Christ's ascension to the Father's side. Tony and Jesse explore theological insights from the Westminster Larger Catechism, highlighting how Christ's resurrection and ascension serve as a composite event that previews the eschatological final state. They discuss the concept of being "caught up to Christ in the clouds" and how this ascension signifies the eventual full and eternal communion with God. This discussion underscores the importance of understanding and meditating on these theological truths, which are not just abstract ideas but real promises that impact daily Christian living. The episode also touches on the role of the Holy Spirit in believers' lives, explaining how the ascension of Christ means that believers are already seated with Him in the spiritual realms. This concept is further elaborated through the idea of being "fully interpenetrated" by the Holy Spirit in a way that transforms daily actions, thoughts, and emotions. The hosts provide practical reflections on how these profound truths should influence the life and community of believers. Key Points: The ascension of Christ offers a sneak peek of believers' eternal status with God. Insights from the Westminster Larger Catechism highlight the eschatological significance of the ascension. The role of the Holy Spirit in believers' lives is emphasized, showing how the ascension impacts daily Christian living. Questions for Reflection: How does the ascension of Christ influence your understanding of the final state of believers? In what ways can meditating on Christ's ascension and the role of the Holy Spirit transform your daily life? What practical steps can you take to incorporate the theological truths discussed in this episode into your community fellowship?

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into the theological significance of Christ's ascension as discussed in the Scots Confession. Exploring themes of glorification, coronation, and ordination, they emphasize the often-overlooked importance of the ascension in reformed theology. Reflecting on their own evangelical upbringings, Tony and Jesse discuss how this pivotal event underscores Christ's mediatorial role and its implications for salvation. Join the conversation as they unpack these profound topics, offering fresh insights and encouraging deeper theological reflection.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into the profound theological implications of Jesus' victory over death as depicted in the Scots Confession. They explore the resurrection of dead saints, the transformative power of the gospel, and the eschatological hope it brings. Through lively discussion and speculative insights, they highlight the resurrection's significance for both Christ and believers, drawing connections to historical interpretations by figures like Calvin and Knox. Join them for an enlightening conversation that underscores the centrality of Christ's resurrection to the Christian faith and its promise of new life.

Dive into this enlightening episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast where hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal explore the profound meaning of Christ's death, passion, and burial. Delve into a rich theological discussion that threads through the intricacies of Reformed theology and the implications of Christ's priesthood in salvation. Listen as they unpack John Knox's reflections and connect them to the modern Christian experience, emphasizing the power of Christ's saving work. This episode promises a deep, insightful exploration of the Scriptures, the nature of God's promises, and the transformative power of Christ's sacrifice.

Join the riveting conversation on the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast as Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve deep into election and Christology in the context of the Scotts Confession. They explore the profound implications of election on ecclesiology, soteriology, and our daily lives. This episode takes listeners on an enlightening journey through the theological richness of election, the embodiment of election in Christ, and the role of Jesus as the perfect mediator. Tune in for a refreshing perspective on how theology is lived out in the incarnation and the practical impact of seeing election in the face of Christ.

In this thought-provoking episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into an enriching discussion about the Incarnation of Christ Jesus. They explore ancient heresies, the essential truth of Christ's divinity and humanity, and the vital importance of defending the Gospel. From examining the Scotts Confession to referencing scriptural teachings, the hosts offer listeners a deep dive into Christology. This episode is a must-listen for those seeking to understand the profound theological truths found in the Scriptures and the significance of the Incarnation in the Christian faith.

In this enriching episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve deep into the Scots Confession and its implications for modern reformed theology. They discuss the promise of the Father, the role of Jesus Christ in our salvation, and the profound reality of being "in Christ". This episode offers a fresh perspective on the Incarnation, the election in Christ, and the overarching narrative of salvation. Listen in for a thought-provoking conversation about the intersection of history, theology, and personal faith.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into an insightful analysis of chapter 4 of the Scots Confession. They discuss the promises of God, the salvation through Christ, and the role of the Holy Spirit. The conversation covers the cosmic scope of salvation, the destruction of the devil's works, and the unity of God's people throughout history. This episode provides a rich exploration of faith, redemption, and the depth of the Scriptures. Ideal for those exploring Reformed theology, seeking a deeper understanding of the Scots Confession, and interested in theological discussions.

In this thought-provoking episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve deep into the concept of original sin as they interpret it from the Scot's Confession. The duo discusses the integral role of intention in the fallen state, drawing parallels with modern-day sins and the role of the Holy Spirit in sanctification. The conversation also covers the implications of the volitional aspects of original sin and the transformative power of Christ's redemption. This episode is a must-listen for those wanting to further understand the complexities of original sin, its impact on Christianity, and the profound grace of the Savior.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into the profound theological concept of God's immutability, or unchangeability. They discuss how this attribute is integral to understanding God's nature, the implications for His promises, and its grounding in scripture. The conversation also touches on the contrast between God's unchangeability and human volition, as well as the relationship between theology and philosophy. A must-listen for anyone seeking a deeper understanding of the steadfast nature of God.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into the intricacies of the Scots confession and its comparison with the Westminster Confession. They discuss the concept of dominion, the fall of man and woman, and the idea of human rebellion as an active decision. This engaging conversation also explores the implications of the confession's distinctive perspective and how it challenges our expectations and perceptions. Tune in for a thoughtful exploration of theological perspectives and insights into key Christian doctrines.

In this enlightening episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb embark on a deep exploration of the Scots Confession. They delve into the unique aspects of this foundational document of Reformed theology, shedding light on its structure, its theological perspectives, and its profound influence on modern confessions. The hosts discuss at length the Scots Confession's focus on the nature of God and how it connects this with the duty of believers to cleave to Him. They also delve into the confession's emphasis on the close relationship between the church and state, a concept that may seem foreign to modern sensibilities but played a significant role in shaping the theological perspectives of the time. Throughout the episode, Tony and Jesse share personal anecdotes that add a touch of humor and relatability to the discussion. From Tony's recent property purchase to Jesse's mysteriously creaking door, these lighter moments provide a welcome break from the intense theological discussion. Key Points: The unique structure and presentation of theology in the Scots Confession. The confession's emphasis on the nature of God and the duty of believers to cleave to Him. The Scots Confession's perspective on church-state relations. The significant influence of the Scots Confession on modern confessions. References: The episode extensively references the Scots Confession. Other resources mentioned include the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Westminster Larger Catechism, the Westminster Shorter Catechism, the Heidelberg Catechism, and the Belgic Confession. Questions for Reflection: How does the presentation of theology in the Scots Confession differ from that in other confessions you are familiar with? How does the Scots Confession's perspective on church-state relations challenge or affirm your existing views on the subject? What insights have you gained regarding the nature of God and the role of believers from this discussion on the Scots Confession?

In this thought-provoking episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into a deep theological discussion about John 3:16. They explore the profound implications of God's love for the world, the role of faith and the impact of Christ's death and resurrection on humanity and the cosmos. They also reflect on the concept of salvation, the nature of justice and mercy, and the uniqueness of God's redemptive plan. This episode is an insightful exploration of the many facets of the gospel and offers a refreshing perspective on reformed theology.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve into a deep discussion on John 3:16, one of the most quoted verses in the Bible. They tackle this well-worn path from a fresh perspective, discussing the nuances of the Greek language and the importance of understanding the original text. They also explore the significance of belief, the intent of the atonement, and God's specific purpose in sending His Son into the world. Listen in as they challenge common interpretations and encourage a deeper understanding of this central expression of Salvation.

In episode 387 of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal delve deep into the topic of the Armor of God. They particularly focus on the aspect of prayer and how it helps in the proclamation of the gospel. Drawing from the Apostle Paul's encouragement to pray boldly, they explore how the act of prayer contributes to our spiritual warfare. A crucial part of the discussion is Paul's request for prayers for his own boldness in proclaiming the gospel. They unpack this request, providing insights into its implications for every Christian's life. Schwamb and Arsenal emphasize the need for us to pray for boldness in gospel proclamation in our own lives, mirroring Paul's request. The episode also touches on the communal aspect of taking up the 'armor of God.' The hosts stress the importance of praying for other Christians and asking for their prayers. They argue that this communal element is often overlooked, but it plays a significant role in our spiritual warfare. Key Points: The importance of prayer in proclaiming the gospel and engaging in spiritual warfare. The Apostle Paul's request for prayers for his own boldness in gospel proclamation. The communal element in taking up the 'armor of God.' Questions for Reflection: How can you incorporate bold prayers for gospel proclamation in your prayer life? In what ways can you foster a sense of community in your spiritual warfare? How can you apply Paul's request for prayers for boldness in your own context?

On this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal engage in a deep and insightful discussion on understanding and applying spiritual tools in daily life, with a particular emphasis on prayer. They explore the significance of praying for others, the transformative effect it has on individual and collective spiritual growth, and its role in fostering communion with God. They also discuss the importance of empathy and active support for those struggling with their faith, and the need to pray for our own needs as well as those of others. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking a deeper understanding of prayer and its role in the Christian life.

In this enlightening episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive deep into the themes of faith, perseverance, and alertness in the Christian life. Exploring the armor of God and its implications for Christians, they discuss how true Christian confidence lies in unwavering faith and reliance on a trustworthy God. They highlight how prayer, powered by the Holy Spirit, contributes to alertness and perseverance, and how faith is both a gift and a responsibility. They also touch upon the concept of Christian life as a victorious journey, secured by the Triumph of Christ and the Holy Spirit within us.

Join Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal on this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast as they delve into a profound discussion about the Armor of God, the significance of prayer, and the power of Christ's saving blood. They explore the concept of constant communion with God, the importance of discipline in prayer, and how this equips Christians for every good work. The episode also highlights the relevance of scriptures in our daily lives, unwrapping the treasures of God's word, and the spiritual battles we face. Tune in to this enlightening conversation that weaves theology, scripture memorization, and spiritual growth, all under the umbrella of the Reformed faith.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive into the topic of the breastplate of righteousness as part of their series on the Armor of God. They discuss the significance of righteousness as both imputed and infused, emphasizing the vital role it plays in the Christian faith. Drawing from Romans and other biblical passages, they explore the concept of justification and how it covers and protects believers, enabling them to walk worthy of their calling. Join them as they unpack the deep theological truths behind this piece of spiritual armor and its practical implications for the Christian life. Tune in and be equipped with insights and encouragement for your own spiritual journey.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood podcast, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb discuss the importance of forgiveness and reconciliation in the context of the Lord's Prayer. They explore the depth and complexity of forgiveness, and how it is not just an act, but a disposition that should be exemplified by Christians.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal discuss the first petition of the Lord's Prayer: "Hallowed be thy name." They explore the deep theological implications of this petition, including the importance of understanding God's identity and the need for regeneration in order to truly appreciate and glorify Him. They also discuss the relationship between this petition and the Ten Commandments, as well as the significance of the Reformed tradition's recognition of human limitations and our dependence on God's grace.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb discuss the importance of the opening words of the Lord's Prayer, "Our Father" They delve into the significance of addressing God as Father, and how this emphasizes the communal aspect of prayer. The hosts provide insightful commentary on the theological implications of these opening words of the Lord's Prayer, and how it can impact our prayer lives.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal discuss the importance of private prayer in the life of a Christian. They delve into the concept of prayer as an act of faith, and how it is different from other forms of communication. They also encourage listeners to make prayer a regular habit, even if it is just for a few minutes a day. The episode ends with a call to action for listeners to start building the habit of private prayer.

In this episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive into the sixth commandment, "You shall not murder," and discuss the root of anger and how it can lead to breaking this commandment. They explore the comprehensive nature of this commandment, including the duty to not give others a reason to kill and the importance of controlling one's thoughts and inner life. The hosts provide insights into how this commandment connects with other biblical principles and how it applies to our daily lives. They emphasize the high standard of the law and the need to eradicate the root of sin in our hearts.

In this episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb discuss the importance of honoring parents as a commandment from God. They explore the significance of this commandment in the Ten Commandments and how it relates to submitting to authority. Through reflection and discussion, they encourage listeners to thank God for their parents and to strive to honor them even in difficult circumstances.

In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal discuss the importance of the second commandment in understanding how to worship God. They explain that the second commandment is a regulative call to defeat distractions that compromise our appreciation and worship of God. By worshiping God according to His precepts and refusing to engage in worship in ways that He has not commanded us, the Spirit moves through those things, and God transforms His people. Overall, this episode provides a deep dive into the second commandment, emphasizing the importance of understanding how to worship God in the way that he wants to be worshiped.

In this episode, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal discuss the implications of the first commandment, "You shall have no other gods before me," from Exodus 20. They delve into the three or four things that the commandment prohibits, which include idolatry, polytheism, superstition, and invocation of saints and angels. The hosts point out that while physical idols are prevalent in some cultures, the Western world has made its idols more abstract. They caution against superstition, which violates the first commandment by attributing cause and effect to mysterious forces. Instead, they encourage listeners to give thanks to God for all things, as everything that happens occurs according to His good, wise, and powerful decree. The hosts remind us that the first commandment is a lofty standard, but we must strive to worship God properly, as He created us to worship.

In this podcast episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb discuss the role of the Ten Commandments in Christian ethics. They emphasize that Christians have a unique obligation to obey God's law, as they have already been redeemed and claimed by God. The prologue to the Ten Commandments establishes two things: the commandments are specifically for God's people, and God has already redeemed them. The hosts highlight the importance of understanding this framework, as it elevates the requirement for obedience to God's commandments. They also caution against slipping into legalism and emphasize that the law is for our good and God's glory. Throughout the episode, the hosts reference the Westminster shorter catechism and explore the role of the Ten Commandments in Christian ethics. They discuss how God's people are obligated to obey the moral law and the significance of the commandments being summarized in the greatest commandment and the second commandment. The discussion also touches on the concept of common grace and how it relates to Christian ethics. The hosts caution against a denial of common grace and emphasize the importance of recognizing that Christians have moral intuitions that existed prior to their conversion. Overall, this episode of the podcast provides engaging and thought-provoking insights into the role of the Ten Commandments in Christian ethics. It encourages listeners to reflect on their obligation to obey God's law and the significance of being part of God's redeemed people.

Protestants may get the doctrine of justification right, but what about the Trinity? Tony Arsenal of the Reformed Brotherhood chimes in to set the record straight on contemporary controversies over the relationship of Jesus to the Father. Trigger warning: some popular Christian theologians are named in this episode! Show Notes Check out the Reformed Brotherhood Podcast and join the Telegram channel

The guys are joined by our friend Tony Arsenal of Reformed Brotherhood Podcast to discuss the application of Chalcedonian Christology.  We shuffled our release order slightly from our recordings, so we reference an episode on Christ the Mediator which will come out next. The trio kick back, sip Vermont Spirits No 14 Bourbon, and dive...

The guys are joined by our friend Tony Arsenal of Reformed Brotherhood Podcast to discuss the application of Chalcedonian Christology.  We shuffled our release order slightly from our recordings, so we reference an episode on Christ the Mediator which will come out next. The trio kick back, sip Vermont Spirits No 14 Bourbon, and dive deep into why getting our Christology right is so essential to the Christian faith. Enjoy extended episodes, watch us live stream our episodes before they are released, and get access to exclusive bonus content on Patreon, starting at just $4.99 per month: https://patreon.com/distillingtheologyJoin us at $14.99 per month for some extra perks, including a Patreon-exclusive coffee mug after your first 3 months as a thank you for your support.Or, join us at our new $29.99 per month  level and after your first 3 months, we'll send you a Patreon Exclusive frosted DT glencairn glass - or at $49.99 per month, we'll send you a pair of those exclusive frosted glasses after your first 3 months.Distilling Theology is a proud member of the Society of Reformed Podcasts - a network of doctrinally sound podcasts from a Reformed perspective. You can get all the shows in the network by subscribing to the megafeed at https://reformedpodcasts.com/Thanks for listening and as always, whatever you do, whether you eat or drink, do all to the glory of God.Soli Deo Gloria!Support the show

This week, the guys continue their discussion of ecclesiology with Tony Arsenal of Reformed Brotherhood. The trio dive into the “marks of the church,” and discuss how they are related. They sip Glenmorangie Nectar D'Or and enjoy a rich theological discussion with plenty of Scripture reading and confessional commentary.

This week, the guys continue their discussion of ecclesiology with Tony Arsenal of Reformed Brotherhood. The trio dive into the "marks of the church," and discuss how they are related. They sip Glenmorangie Nectar D'Or and enjoy a rich theological discussion with plenty of Scripture reading and confessional commentary.Enjoy extended episodes, watch us live stream our episodes before they are released, and get access to exclusive bonus content on Patreon, starting at just $4.99 per month: https://patreon.com/distillingtheologyWe've introduced a new $14.99 per month level with some extra perks, including a Patreon-exclusive coffee mug after your first 3 months as a thank you for your support.Distilling Theology is a proud member of the Society of Reformed Podcasts - a network of doctrinally sound podcasts from a Reformed perspective. You can get all the shows in the network by subscribing to the megafeed at https://reformedpodcasts.com/Thanks for listening and as always, whatever you do, whether you eat or drink, do all to the glory of God.Soli deo Gloria!Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/DistillingTheology)

Today on the show we talk to Tony Arsenal of The Reformed Brotherhood, hear his… The post R| Not Another New Calvinist with Tony Arsenal appeared first on Society of Reformed Podcasters.

Today on the show we talk to Tony Arsenal of The Reformed Brotherhood, hear his testimony and learn about whats going on at the Society of Reformed Podcasts. Find them here:  https://reformedpodcasts.com/ or on whatever Podcast catcher you use.  Remember to like our facebook page because once we get 100 likes we will do a reaction to Matt Chandler's infamous "Jesus wants the Rose" clip. Contact us anytime at restlesspodcasting@gmail.com Find More of Tony's stuff too: https://reformedbrotherhood.com/ https://www.placefortruth.org/

Taking a break from the ongoing series exploring Systematic Theology, Justin and Blake are joined by Tony Arsenal of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast. The trio sit down, sip Glenfiddich Fire & Cane, and discuss the Church and Covid-19 in 2021. Next week, the guys are going to discuss Angelology, the study of angels, and sip Aviation Gin.Check out our new "Covenant Theology is Distilled Theology" apparel over at https://shopdistillingtheology.com/Enjoy extended episodes, watch us live stream our episodes before they are released, and get access to exclusive bonus content on Patreon, starting at just $4.99 per month: https://patreon.com/distillingtheologyWe've introduced a new $14.99 per month level with some extra perks, including a Patreon-exclusive coffee mug after your first 3 months as a thank you for your support.Distilling Theology is a proud member of the Society of Reformed Podcasts - a network of doctrinally sound podcasts from a Reformed perspective. You can get all the shows in the network by subscribing to the megafeed at https://reformedpodcasts.com/Thanks for listening and as always, whatever you do, whether you eat or drink, do all to the glory of God.Soli deo Gloria!Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/DistillingTheology)

Taking a break from the ongoing series exploring Systematic Theology, Justin and Blake are joined… The post DT| The Church + Covid-19 with Tony Arsenal // Tasting Glenfiddich Fire & Cane appeared first on Society of Reformed Podcasters.

SAP 71. Luke concludes his discussion on Creedal Christology with Tony Arsenal on some listener questions relating to impeccability, Eastern Orthodoxy, Van Til, and others. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @SteadyAnchorPod; listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, SoundCloud, and YouTube. Follow the other members of the Society of Reformed Podcasters (reformedpodcasts.com), and find our Doctrinal Discipleship website (doctrinaldiscipleship.com)! If you have a minute to help us out, leave a rate and review on Facebook or Apple Podcasts, or support us on Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/steadyanchorpodcast). It helps a lot; God bless!

SAP 71. Luke concludes his discussion on Creedal Christology with Tony Arsenal on some listener… The post SAP: Creedal Christology w/ Tony Arsenal Pt. 2 appeared first on Society of Reformed Podcasters.

SAP 70. This is part one of the discussion with special guest Tony Arsenal from… The post SAP: Creedal Christology w/ Tony Arsenal Pt. 1 appeared first on Society of Reformed Podcasters.

SAP 70. This is part one of the discussion with special guest Tony Arsenal from the Reformed Brotherhood podcast on the questions: what is Creedal Christology and why does it matter? We cover the basics of orthodox Christology, the particulars of the Reformed Protestant tradition, and why it matters today. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @SteadyAnchorPod; listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, SoundCloud, and YouTube. Follow the other members of the Society of Reformed Podcasters (reformedpodcasts.com), and find our Doctrinal Discipleship website (doctrinaldiscipleship.com)! If you have a minute to help us out, leave a rate and review on Facebook or Apple Podcasts, or support us on Patreon. It helps a lot; God bless!

This episode is one of clarification and further explanation. Austin follows up on a question from episode 14, "did God die on the cross?", and offers an answer that is more consistent with Christian orthodoxy. Tony Arsenal from the Reformed Brotherhood joins the show to offer a further explanation of the orthodox position and provide clarity to the discussion. Resources:Story of Creeds and Confessions - Donald Fairbairn and Ryan ReevesReformed Dogmatics, Vol 3: Christology - Geerhardus VosOn the Incarnation - AthanasiusReformed Brotherhood: Episode 143, God Died on the Cross - https://reformedbrotherhood.com/trb-143-god-died-on-the-cross/Reformed Arsenal - https://reformedarsenal.com/rc-sproul-and-nestorianism-a-clarification/ and https://reformedarsenal.com/clarified-chalcedonian-statement-by-dr-rc-sproul/

Tony and Jesse answer a listener question about tithing. Jesse Schwamb 0:09 Welcome to Episode 174 of the reformed brotherhood. I’m Jesse. Tony Arsenal 0:16 ListenQuestion Cast, Volume 19

The Lightest Form of Flogging has finally stepped up into the minor leagues. But first, of course, stupid skits and an annoying follow up segment.For the meat—uh… tuna—of our show, we bring in special guest Tony Arsenal to talk about EFS. We talk about how it got so popular, why people are quick to accept it, and why many are slow to criticize its proponents.Mentioned LinksTony's BlogThe Reformed Brotherhood PodcastThe Reformed PubLeave us a voicemail: (707) 998-8547Join us on Slack!

Tony re-joins the pilgrims to talk about the Trinity. We tackle topics and questions like:… ListenGod Is: Triune (ft. Tony Arsenal) The post God Is: Triune (ft. Tony Arsenal) appeared first on Society of Reformed Podcasters.

Tony re-joins the pilgrims to talk about the Trinity. We tackle topics and questions like: How is God three and how is God one?Should we even use the word “Trinity” when it doesn’t appear in the bible?The EFS/ESS/ERAS (“Eternal Functional Subordination/Eternal Submission of the Son/Eternal Relations of Authority and Submission”) controversyCalvin’s doctrine of “autotheos”The Trinitarian […]

The Pilgrims have a very anticipated guest on to talk about the fifth commandment and… ListenThe Fifth Commandment (ft. Tony Arsenal) The post The Fifth Commandment (ft. Tony Arsenal) appeared first on Society of Reformed Podcasters.

The Pilgrims have a very anticipated guest on to talk about the fifth commandment and its broadness of scope. Check out Tony’s podcasts:Reformed BrotherhoodReformed StandardPublick Domain

Agent Arsenal, podcast pranks, Republicationism, and the 1646…what more could you want? Tony Arsenal from the Reformed Brotherhood joins us to give the 1646 Presbyterian understanding Covenant Theology, as well as touching on Republicationsim. For more from Tony (and his cohost Jesse @JesseSchwamb) @ReformedBroHood @reformedarsenal

David kicks things off by bamboozling Jim and then reading some confessions, not the theological kind. They also talk a little bit about kidney stones, because those are kind of a big deal.For the main topic, once we get past Jim's subtle drug references, we discuss Jim's relation to confessions, the theological kind. Specifically, our topic is confessoinalism. We attempt to define it, we discuss Jim's affinity for confessions despite not having one, talk about what sorts of things he thinks should go into one, and of course get severely distracted along the way.In the after show, we discuss Eternal Functional Subordination and Eternal Generation because of some things that come up during the main segment that we thought needed to be clarified.Mentioned LinksThe First London Baptist ConfessionFamily Worship – book by Donald Miller Training Hearts, Teaching Minds – book by Star MeadeThe ERAS/EFS Controversy – blog post by Tony Arsenal

Cary has Tony Arsenal on, the co-host of The Reformed Brotherhood podcast, to talk about the importance of rooting ourselves in the historic Church.Five For Fruit is a proud member of the Society of Reformed Podcasters. Visit reformedpodcasts.com for more info.Leave Cary a voicemail at 708-740-0098 and he may use it on a future episode.Drop him an email at info@fiveforfruit.com if you have any encouragement, questions or recommendations.Like the podcast’s Facebook page at facebook.com/fiveforfruit to keep up with the latest news. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

On tap this week: Les and Tanner do Kentucky Fried damage control, Tanner reproduces, the secret rapture is whack, Tony Arsenal joins us for a chat about free will, and we discuss the worst Christian sayings. This week's sponsors: Olive Tree Go to olivetree.com and use coupon code “pubcast” at checkout to receive 20% off […]

Join Devin and Melissa each week as they discuss topics related to apologetics, theology and biblical worldview. This week we will have an open Q&A on your theological and apologetic questions. Joining us for this time of Q&A will be theologian Tony Arsenal. Tony is a recent graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton MA, where he received Master of Arts Degrees in Church History, and Theology and was awarded the Baker Award for Excellence in Theological Studies. He has presented papers with the Evangelical Theological Society and the Gordon-Conwell Theology Forum. His current research interests are Trinitarian and Christological Theology, and Reformed Systematics, and Early Church History. Tony lives in Canaan, New Hampshire with his wife, Lee. He currently blogs at ReformedArsenal.com and teaches Systematic Theology at his local church. Call in with your questions or post them on our facebook page or in the chatroom. You do not want to miss this engaging and informative show!

Join us each week as we discuss topics related to Christian apologetics, theology and biblical worldview. During our first segment, we will be joined by Dr. Pete Bertolero who is a Pastor, theologian and author, specializing in historical perspectives behind holiday traditions, Christian mythology, and issues dealing with authentic masculinity and the development of man-making communities. Dr. Pete Bertolero is a pastor of a growing church in Fresno California, called “The LEGACY Christian Church.” He is the author of GreenTree, a book for those who desire to celebrate the Advent and Christmas season in a deeper, more meaningful and festive way and will be discussing his book's content with us..  During the second segment we will be joined by Tony Arsenal for a discussion on the Doctrine of The Trinity. Tony is a recent graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton MA, where he received Master of Arts Degrees in Church History, and Theology and was awarded the Baker Award for Excellence in Theological Studies. He has presented papers with the Evangelical Theological Society and the Gordon-Conwell Theology Forum. His current research interests are Trinitarian and Christological Theology, and Reformed Systematics, and Early Church History. Tony lives near Hartford, CT, with his wife, Lee. He currently blogs at ReformedArsenal.com and teaches Systematic Theology at his local church. You do not want to miss this engaging and informative show.

Join Devin & Melissa Pellew as they discuss topics related to biblical theology, Christian apologetics and worldview issues. This week, we will be hosting a dialog on Justification between two scholars- one Roman Catholic and one Protestant. Representing the Roman Catholic view of Justication will be Doug Beaumont. Doug earned an M.A. in Apologetics from Southern Evangelical Seminary where he served as assistant to Norman Geisler and taught Bible and Religion for ten years before converting to Catholicism. He is currently pursuing a Ph.D. in Theology at North-West University and is the author of "The Message Behind the Movie" (Moody, 2009), and has contributed to "The Apologetics Study Bible for Students" (B&H, 2010), "Got Questions?" (Pleasant Word, 2009), and has published articles in "The Christian Apologetics Journal." He also has a blog called Soul Device where he writes on theology, philosophy, apologetics, and other topics. He and wife, Elaine, reside in the Charlotte metro area with their three children. Representing the Protestant view of Justification will be Tony Arsenal. Tony is a recent graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton MA, where he received Master of Arts Degrees in Church History, and Theology and was awarded the Baker Award for Excellence in Theological Studies. He has presented papers with the Evangelical Theological Society and the Gordon-Conwell Theology Forum. His current research interests are Trinitarian and Christological Theology, and Reformed Systematics, and Early Church History. Tony lives near Hartford, CT, with his wife, Lee. He currently blogs at ReformedArsenal.com and teaches Systematic Theology at his local church. Please join us for this engaging discussion and we will be taking your calls as well.