Podcasts about Bengalis

Gazi Mizanur Rahman's In the Malay World: A Spatial History of a Bengali Transnational Community (Cambridge University Press, 2024) offers the first sustained historical study of Bengali migration to British Malaya from the mid-nineteenth century to the late twentieth. Drawing on archival research in South and Southeast Asia, as well as oral histories and travel accounts, Rahman reconstructs the formation of a transnational Bengali presence that has been largely overlooked in the broader literature on Indian migration. The book argues that Bengali migrants—across class, religion, and occupation—constituted a distinct group within the South Asian diaspora in the Malay world. Colonial administrators often reduced them to the generic category of “Indian,” but Bengalis in Malaya included plantation workers, lascars, domestic servants, professionals, and traders. They moved through varied migration routes and formed diverse community institutions, including mosques, cultural associations, and legal aid networks. Rahman introduces the concept of “space-making” to show how Bengali migrants created social, institutional, and urban spaces that allowed them to adapt and persist in new settings. These spaces were not only material (homes, neighbourhoods, workplaces) but also relational, sustained by kinship ties, religious practice, and civic engagement. Particularly important are the chapters on Bengali medical professionals and maritime labour, which demonstrate how this group contributed to colonial infrastructure while navigating systemic racial and occupational hierarchies. The book also engages with the postcolonial period, tracing the arrival of Bangladeshi workers in the 1980s and 1990s and the new forms of marginality they encountered. These later migrants, often undocumented or temporary, faced challenges similar to those of their predecessors but within different political and economic regimes. Rahman's study challenges the dominant focus on Tamil and Sikh diasporas in Southeast Asia and contributes to a growing body of scholarship that disaggregates the “Indian” category in colonial and postcolonial contexts. It is a methodologically rigorous and empirically rich work that will interest historians of migration, labour, and the Indian Ocean world. Soumyadeep Guha is a third-year graduate student in the History Department at the State University of New York, Binghamton, with research interests in Agrarian History, the History of Science and Technology, and Global History, focusing on 19th and 20th century India. His MA dissertation, War, Science and Survival Technologies: The Politics of Nutrition and Agriculture in Late Colonial India, explored how wartime imperatives shaped scientific and agricultural policy during the Second World War in India. Currently, his working on his PhD dissertation on the histories of rice and its production in late colonial and early post-colonial Bengal, examining the entangled trajectories of agrarian change, scientific knowledge, and state-making. Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/southeast-asian-studies

Gazi Mizanur Rahman's In the Malay World: A Spatial History of a Bengali Transnational Community (Cambridge University Press, 2024) offers the first sustained historical study of Bengali migration to British Malaya from the mid-nineteenth century to the late twentieth. Drawing on archival research in South and Southeast Asia, as well as oral histories and travel accounts, Rahman reconstructs the formation of a transnational Bengali presence that has been largely overlooked in the broader literature on Indian migration. The book argues that Bengali migrants—across class, religion, and occupation—constituted a distinct group within the South Asian diaspora in the Malay world. Colonial administrators often reduced them to the generic category of “Indian,” but Bengalis in Malaya included plantation workers, lascars, domestic servants, professionals, and traders. They moved through varied migration routes and formed diverse community institutions, including mosques, cultural associations, and legal aid networks. Rahman introduces the concept of “space-making” to show how Bengali migrants created social, institutional, and urban spaces that allowed them to adapt and persist in new settings. These spaces were not only material (homes, neighbourhoods, workplaces) but also relational, sustained by kinship ties, religious practice, and civic engagement. Particularly important are the chapters on Bengali medical professionals and maritime labour, which demonstrate how this group contributed to colonial infrastructure while navigating systemic racial and occupational hierarchies. The book also engages with the postcolonial period, tracing the arrival of Bangladeshi workers in the 1980s and 1990s and the new forms of marginality they encountered. These later migrants, often undocumented or temporary, faced challenges similar to those of their predecessors but within different political and economic regimes. Rahman's study challenges the dominant focus on Tamil and Sikh diasporas in Southeast Asia and contributes to a growing body of scholarship that disaggregates the “Indian” category in colonial and postcolonial contexts. It is a methodologically rigorous and empirically rich work that will interest historians of migration, labour, and the Indian Ocean world. Soumyadeep Guha is a third-year graduate student in the History Department at the State University of New York, Binghamton, with research interests in Agrarian History, the History of Science and Technology, and Global History, focusing on 19th and 20th century India. His MA dissertation, War, Science and Survival Technologies: The Politics of Nutrition and Agriculture in Late Colonial India, explored how wartime imperatives shaped scientific and agricultural policy during the Second World War in India. Currently, his working on his PhD dissertation on the histories of rice and its production in late colonial and early post-colonial Bengal, examining the entangled trajectories of agrarian change, scientific knowledge, and state-making. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/south-asian-studies

Gazi Mizanur Rahman's In the Malay World: A Spatial History of a Bengali Transnational Community (Cambridge University Press, 2024) offers the first sustained historical study of Bengali migration to British Malaya from the mid-nineteenth century to the late twentieth. Drawing on archival research in South and Southeast Asia, as well as oral histories and travel accounts, Rahman reconstructs the formation of a transnational Bengali presence that has been largely overlooked in the broader literature on Indian migration. The book argues that Bengali migrants—across class, religion, and occupation—constituted a distinct group within the South Asian diaspora in the Malay world. Colonial administrators often reduced them to the generic category of “Indian,” but Bengalis in Malaya included plantation workers, lascars, domestic servants, professionals, and traders. They moved through varied migration routes and formed diverse community institutions, including mosques, cultural associations, and legal aid networks. Rahman introduces the concept of “space-making” to show how Bengali migrants created social, institutional, and urban spaces that allowed them to adapt and persist in new settings. These spaces were not only material (homes, neighbourhoods, workplaces) but also relational, sustained by kinship ties, religious practice, and civic engagement. Particularly important are the chapters on Bengali medical professionals and maritime labour, which demonstrate how this group contributed to colonial infrastructure while navigating systemic racial and occupational hierarchies. The book also engages with the postcolonial period, tracing the arrival of Bangladeshi workers in the 1980s and 1990s and the new forms of marginality they encountered. These later migrants, often undocumented or temporary, faced challenges similar to those of their predecessors but within different political and economic regimes. Rahman's study challenges the dominant focus on Tamil and Sikh diasporas in Southeast Asia and contributes to a growing body of scholarship that disaggregates the “Indian” category in colonial and postcolonial contexts. It is a methodologically rigorous and empirically rich work that will interest historians of migration, labour, and the Indian Ocean world. Soumyadeep Guha is a third-year graduate student in the History Department at the State University of New York, Binghamton, with research interests in Agrarian History, the History of Science and Technology, and Global History, focusing on 19th and 20th century India. His MA dissertation, War, Science and Survival Technologies: The Politics of Nutrition and Agriculture in Late Colonial India, explored how wartime imperatives shaped scientific and agricultural policy during the Second World War in India. Currently, his working on his PhD dissertation on the histories of rice and its production in late colonial and early post-colonial Bengal, examining the entangled trajectories of agrarian change, scientific knowledge, and state-making. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/geography

Wawa, I'm Gonna Git U Sucka, Jenn's Blaotian family, scandalous For You Pages, creating new Bengali stereotypes. Patreon for the full ep. 

You can Buy Anuj's Book here: https://www.amazon.in/BOSE-DECEPTION-DECLASSIFIED-Anuj-Dhar/dp/0670097276 Anuj Dhar is an Indian journalist known for his work in uncovering the mysteries surrounding the disappearance of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose. He has challenged official accounts with research and evidence-based arguments and played a key role in pushing for the release of government files about Bose. He is also the co-founder of the Mission Netaji organization. He has authored several books like CIA's Eye on South Asia (2008) and What Happened to Netaji (2015) and many more. In this episode, Vinamre and Anuj talk about: - The mystery of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose's death, with different theories like the Taiwan plane crash, his escape to Russia, and the idea that he lived as Gumnami Baba. - How an Indian minister had links to the CIA in 1971. - Gandhi's vision of world peace vs. Bose's fight for independence. - Questions about Bose's remains at Renkoji Temple. - The role of powerful people and the Indian government in controlling the story of Bose's disappearance. - How his files are spread all around the globe and how important his role was in the independence of India. Watch this episode to uncover more about the mysteries surrounding Netaji's life and disappearance. Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction 0:55 - Is he a conspiracy theorist? 9:24 - Is he a secret RSS agent? 14:12 - Indian minister's connection with the CIA in 1971 21:06 - Bose's files: Spread across the globe 24:55 - Subhas Chandra Bose's great escape to Germany 31:18 - Gandhi's vision of world peace vs. Bose's fight for independence 41:14 - The death of Subhas Chandra Bose: Taiwan plane crash theory 49:07 - The theory of his asylum in Russia 54:17 - Why is the government hiding facts about Netaji's death? 1:07:35 - Why do Bengalis dislike Bose? 1:14:00 - How the Mukherjee Commission was formed 1:20:55 - Cabinet note on Bose's death: What did the government know? 1:25:49 - The truth of Bose's remains at the Renkoji Temple 1:32:20 - The family of Subhas Chandra Bose 1:45:08 - Who was Bholanath Mallick? 1:49:08 - The truth about Bose's alleged asylum in Russia 1:52:55 - The Gumnami Baba theory: Was he Subhas Chandra Bose? 2:24:47 - Conclusion ==================================================================== This is the official channel for Dostcast, a podcast by Vinamre Kasanaa. Connect with me LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vinamre-kasanaa-b8524496/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vinamrekasanaa/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/VinamreKasanaa Dostcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dostcast/ Dostcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dostcast Dostcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61557567524054 ==================================================================== Contact Us For business inquiries: dostcast@egiplay.com

In this episode of Conversations with Chai, Ihram sits down with Mashnun and Mohuya, hosts of the Difficultish podcast, to dive deep into the intricacies of being South Asian creators. They explore what it means to navigate the creative industry as Bengalis, the challenges of being boxed in as "brown creators" instead of just creators, and how competitiveness shapes the brown creative space. Timestamps to guide your listening: 6:22: Being only recognized as a "brown creator" but wanting creativity to stand on its own. 12:10: Why it's okay to give creators their flowers, whether you're a fan or just an observer. 26:10: The loneliness of pioneering in the brown creative industry and the unique challenges that come with being an early mover. Tune in for a candid conversation about identity, support, and what it takes to thrive in a competitive yet growing space.

This episode will definitely set back the culture by a few decades don't share with your non-desi friends, ok?

Ali, a very funny comedian, tells us all about his life's journey from Yemen to Ethiopia to Minnesota (???) to Brooklyn.

In this episode, we are joined by the anthropologist Tone Bleie for a discussion of her book A New Testament: Scandinavian Missionaries and Santal Chiefs from Company and British Crown Rule to Independence (Solum Bokvennen, 2023), a pioneering piece of scholarship that innovatively rethinks the economic, legal, and social history of the power-laden relationship between a Scandinavian Transatlantic mission and the Santals, Boro and Bengalis of Eastern India, Northern Bangladesh, and Eastern Nepal. Based on decades of research, the book offers a kaleidoscopic portrait of historical encounters across the longue durée, transporting readers back to the medieval period and Danish and British Company Rule, through to the British Raj and the early post-Independence period. Tone Bleie is Professor of Public Planning and Cultural Understanding at the University of Tromsø, The Arctic University of Norway. Kenneth Bo Nielsen is a social anthropologist based at the University of Oslo. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

In this episode, we are joined by the anthropologist Tone Bleie for a discussion of her book A New Testament: Scandinavian Missionaries and Santal Chiefs from Company and British Crown Rule to Independence (Solum Bokvennen, 2023), a pioneering piece of scholarship that innovatively rethinks the economic, legal, and social history of the power-laden relationship between a Scandinavian Transatlantic mission and the Santals, Boro and Bengalis of Eastern India, Northern Bangladesh, and Eastern Nepal. Based on decades of research, the book offers a kaleidoscopic portrait of historical encounters across the longue durée, transporting readers back to the medieval period and Danish and British Company Rule, through to the British Raj and the early post-Independence period. Tone Bleie is Professor of Public Planning and Cultural Understanding at the University of Tromsø, The Arctic University of Norway. Kenneth Bo Nielsen is a social anthropologist based at the University of Oslo. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

In this episode, we are joined by the anthropologist Tone Bleie for a discussion of her book A New Testament: Scandinavian Missionaries and Santal Chiefs from Company and British Crown Rule to Independence (Solum Bokvennen, 2023), a pioneering piece of scholarship that innovatively rethinks the economic, legal, and social history of the power-laden relationship between a Scandinavian Transatlantic mission and the Santals, Boro and Bengalis of Eastern India, Northern Bangladesh, and Eastern Nepal. Based on decades of research, the book offers a kaleidoscopic portrait of historical encounters across the longue durée, transporting readers back to the medieval period and Danish and British Company Rule, through to the British Raj and the early post-Independence period. Tone Bleie is Professor of Public Planning and Cultural Understanding at the University of Tromsø, The Arctic University of Norway. Kenneth Bo Nielsen is a social anthropologist based at the University of Oslo. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/anthropology

In this episode, we are joined by the anthropologist Tone Bleie for a discussion of her book A New Testament: Scandinavian Missionaries and Santal Chiefs from Company and British Crown Rule to Independence (Solum Bokvennen, 2023), a pioneering piece of scholarship that innovatively rethinks the economic, legal, and social history of the power-laden relationship between a Scandinavian Transatlantic mission and the Santals, Boro and Bengalis of Eastern India, Northern Bangladesh, and Eastern Nepal. Based on decades of research, the book offers a kaleidoscopic portrait of historical encounters across the longue durée, transporting readers back to the medieval period and Danish and British Company Rule, through to the British Raj and the early post-Independence period. Tone Bleie is Professor of Public Planning and Cultural Understanding at the University of Tromsø, The Arctic University of Norway. Kenneth Bo Nielsen is a social anthropologist based at the University of Oslo. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/south-asian-studies

In this episode, we are joined by the anthropologist Tone Bleie for a discussion of her book A New Testament: Scandinavian Missionaries and Santal Chiefs from Company and British Crown Rule to Independence (Solum Bokvennen, 2023), a pioneering piece of scholarship that innovatively rethinks the economic, legal, and social history of the power-laden relationship between a Scandinavian Transatlantic mission and the Santals, Boro and Bengalis of Eastern India, Northern Bangladesh, and Eastern Nepal. Based on decades of research, the book offers a kaleidoscopic portrait of historical encounters across the longue durée, transporting readers back to the medieval period and Danish and British Company Rule, through to the British Raj and the early post-Independence period. Tone Bleie is Professor of Public Planning and Cultural Understanding at the University of Tromsø, The Arctic University of Norway. Kenneth Bo Nielsen is a social anthropologist based at the University of Oslo.

In this episode, we are joined by the anthropologist Tone Bleie for a discussion of her book A New Testament: Scandinavian Missionaries and Santal Chiefs from Company and British Crown Rule to Independence (Solum Bokvennen, 2023), a pioneering piece of scholarship that innovatively rethinks the economic, legal, and social history of the power-laden relationship between a Scandinavian Transatlantic mission and the Santals, Boro and Bengalis of Eastern India, Northern Bangladesh, and Eastern Nepal. Based on decades of research, the book offers a kaleidoscopic portrait of historical encounters across the longue durée, transporting readers back to the medieval period and Danish and British Company Rule, through to the British Raj and the early post-Independence period. Tone Bleie is Professor of Public Planning and Cultural Understanding at the University of Tromsø, The Arctic University of Norway. Kenneth Bo Nielsen is a social anthropologist based at the University of Oslo. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/religion

In this episode, we are joined by the anthropologist Tone Bleie for a discussion of her book A New Testament: Scandinavian Missionaries and Santal Chiefs from Company and British Crown Rule to Independence (Solum Bokvennen, 2023), a pioneering piece of scholarship that innovatively rethinks the economic, legal, and social history of the power-laden relationship between a Scandinavian Transatlantic mission and the Santals, Boro and Bengalis of Eastern India, Northern Bangladesh, and Eastern Nepal. Based on decades of research, the book offers a kaleidoscopic portrait of historical encounters across the longue durée, transporting readers back to the medieval period and Danish and British Company Rule, through to the British Raj and the early post-Independence period. Tone Bleie is Professor of Public Planning and Cultural Understanding at the University of Tromsø, The Arctic University of Norway. Kenneth Bo Nielsen is a social anthropologist based at the University of Oslo. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/christian-studies

The Dr B S Harishankar Memorial Lecture, Bharatiya Vichara Kendram, Trivandrum, 27th August 2024.A Malayalam version of this has been published by Janmabhumi newspaper at https://janmabhumi.in/2024/09/01/3258051/varadyam/geo-political-implications-for-bangladesh/It was startling to hear from retired Ambassador G Sankar Iyer on Asianet's program with Ambassador TP Sreenivasan that the celebrated Malayalam author Vaikom Mohammed Basheer (once nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature) said in 1973: “In Bangladesh, we have created yet another enemy.” With his novelist's insight, Basheer understood that the Two-Nation Theory held sway among certain sections of Bengalis.In the current crisis situation in 2024, the ongoing pogrom against Hindus (amounting to a virtual genocide) and the forced resignation of teachers, police officers and other officials based only on the fact that they are Hindus (there are videos that show them being beaten and humiliated even after resigning) suggests that anti-Hindu feeling is running rampant in Bangladesh. It is another kristallnacht.This is coupled with anti-India feeling. For instance, the current floods in Bangladesh are being blamed on India opening a dam in Tripura after torrential rains, although the Indian government has said that it provided all the hydrological data that it always has. The fact of the matter is that the departure of Sheikh Hasina is a blow to India's geo-political ambitions. It now appears as though India erred in “putting all its eggs into one basket” by cultivating only her Awami League, and not the Bangladesh National Party of her arch-rival Khaleda Zia. The indubitable fact that Indian influence in Bangladesh has now been supplanted by forces inimical to India raises the question of who might be behind the regime change operation. Beyond that, there is the question of whether it was indeed a popular uprising based on the suppressed ambitions of the people that led to the ouster of Sheikh Hasina.The third question is what this means for Bangladesh, India and the region going forward, especially as climate change may alter the very geography of the area. It is predicted that as much as 11% of the land area of Bangladesh could be underwater by 2050. This could displace 18 million people, which would lead to unprecedented migration of their population into India. Regime Change operation: Who benefits from it?Cui bono? Who benefits? That Latin phrase is used to consider who might be motivated to commit a crime (the other part is who has the means to commit it). In this case of regime change in Bangladesh, there are several entities who might benefit. Obviously Pakistan. That country has never lived down its balkanization in 1971, and it had a number of its sympathizers already in place at that time. There were many who collaborated with the Pakistani Army in identifying Hindus and facilitating their killing or rape or ethnic cleansing, and also Muslims who were their political opponents. These are the people Sheikh Hasina referred to as “razakars”, and they are essentially in control now. China is a clear winner whenever something happens that hurts India's interests. There is the perennial issue of the Chicken's Neck, that narrow strip of land that connects the Seven Sister states of India's Northeast to the Gangetic Plain. It is a permanent threat to India that somebody (most probably China) will cut this off and truncate India, with the Northeast then becoming part of a Greater Bangladesh, with associated genocide of Hindus and Buddhists. Former Ambassador Veena Sikri spoke to Ambassador TP Sreenivasan about something very odd indeed: Sheikh Hasina made a state visit to China in mid July, and she was thoroughly humiliated there. Xi Jingping refused to meet her; and she cut her visit short by one day and returned to Dhaka. This is an unheard-of protocol violation for a State Visit; what it suggests is that China had decided that Sheikh Hasina was on the way out. This is in sharp contrast to a Xi visit in 2016 when he made grand promises about Belt and Road Initiative investments. The United States also has interests. Sheikh Hasina had alleged two things: * An unnamed Western power wants St Martin's Island (aka Coconut Island) off Cox's Bazaar as a military base to keep an eye on both China and India, * An unnamed Western power intends to form a new Christian Zo nation (for Mizo, Kuki, Chin) just like Christian homelands were carved out in East Timor and South Sudan.The implication was that the unspecified Western power was the US. It is not entirely clear that the US benefits greatly from a military base in the Bay of Bengal but there has been a long-running Great Game initiated by the British to keep India down as a supplier of raw materials and a market for their products. The US may have inherited this mantle.Intriguingly, the US Deep State and its proxies in the Western media had built a narrative around Sheikh Hasina as a model leader for developing Asia, a woman who also succeeded in improving the economic status of her country. That Bangladesh's per capita GDP had overtaken India's, and that its garment industry was doing well were used to mock India's own economic achievements. The switch to Hasina being a ‘dictator' was a sudden change in narrative.There is, therefore, enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that there was a foreign hand in the happenings in Bangladesh, although we will have to wait for conclusive evidence. Was this indeed a regime-change coup or a true popular uprising?It is true that Bangladesh under Sheikh Hasina's fifteen-year rule was not a perfect democracy. But there are mitigating factors, including a violent streak that led to the assassination of her father and independence hero Sheikh Mujibur Rahman just four years after the bloody birth of the new State after the Pakistan Army's assault on its Bengali citizens. The toppling and desecration of his statue shows that his national hero status may not be accepted by the entire population: in fact it looks like friends of Pakistan wish to erase his entire legacy. The history of democracy in independent Bangladesh is checkered and marred by violence. Before he was deposed and killed in 1975, Mujibur Rehman himself had banned all opposition parties. After Mujib, there was outright military rule till 1986, when the erstwhile Chief Martial Law Administrator Hussain Mohammed Ershad became the elected President. When Ershad was deposed after (student-led) agitations in 1991, Khaleda Zia (BNP or Bangladesh National Party) became the PM and after that she and her arch-rival Sheikh Hasina (Awami League) alternated in power. The BNP boycotted the 2018 elections partly because Khaleda Zia was jailed on allegations of corruption. In all of these twists and turns, ‘students' were involved. In 1971, when Yahya Khan launched Operation Searchlight, the Pakistani army went straight for students and professors in Dhaka University, especially if they were Hindus. Later too, ‘student' protests were instrumental in the overthrow of Ershad. The proximate cause of the troubles in 2024 was also a ‘student' uprising. There had been a 30% quota in government jobs for the children of freedom fighters; along with other such set-asides e.g. for minorities and women, a total of 56% of government jobs were ‘reserved' by 2018. This reservation system was largely abolished by Sheikh Hasina's government in 2018 after yet another student agitation. In June 2024, a High Court in Bangladesh overturned the 2018 judgment as unconstitutional. Even though the Supreme Court reversed it, and restored the status quo ante (of drastically reduced reservations to 7% in total), the peaceful ‘student' agitation suddenly morphed into a violent confrontation led by members of the Jamaat e Islami (an Islamist party) and the BNP. There was police firing. The Daily Star, a respected daily, found out that 204 people were killed in the first few days, out of which only 53 were students. It appears the supposed ‘student revolution' was taken over by professional agitators and agents provocateurs, and it rapidly led to the overthrow of Sheikh Hasina, with escalating violence, especially against Hindus, and the Army getting involved. Even though the Army is in charge now, there is a smokescreen of an ‘interim government' that allows entities like the UN an excuse to not impose sanctions on Bangladesh. It is hard to take it on face value that this was a popular uprising; circumstantial evidence suggests that there was a clear agenda for regime change, and since it suits both China and the US to keep India constrained, either of them could have been behind it. The diplomatic snub to Hasina in July suggests the Chinese were well aware of the coming coup. On the other hand, the sudden U-turn in the narrative about Hasina in the Western media suggests that the US might have decided to dump her. The process by which the regime change happened is also similar to what happened in other countries that experienced ‘color revolutions'. The actions of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), and of some diplomats in supporting the BNP, have been offered as possible evidence of US bad faith.What is obvious is the role of the fundamentalist group, the Jamaat e Islami, which has strong connections with Pakistan. It seems likely that they were the enforcers, and had invested assets within the armed forces. They have called for the secular Bangladesh constitution to be replaced by Islamic Sharia law, and for non-Muslims to be treated as second-class citizens. The Yunus government has just unbanned the Jamaat e Islami.The attacks on Hindus, including large numbers of lynchings, rapes, and abductions of women, suggests that there is a religious angle and the Jamaat e Islami's prejudices are coming to the fore. Notably, the entire Western media, Amnesty International, the United Nations, and the USCIRF, human rights specialists all, had nothing at all to say about the horrific oppression of Hindus. The New York Times even had a headline about “revenge killings” of Hindus, as though somehow the 8% minority Hindus had been responsible for whatever Sheikh Hasina was accused of. Upon being called out, the NYT changed the headline to just  “killings” of Hindus with no explanation or apology.The role of Professor Mohammed Yunus is also intriguing: he had been invited to head an interim government in 2007 but abandoned the attempt and in fact left politics. He had been close to Sheikh Hasina at one point, for instance he got the licenses for his Grameen Phone during her rule, but they later fell out. Yunus' Nobel Peace Prize and his earlier stint in the US have raised questions about whether he is in fact managed by US interests.Given all this, it is much more likely that it was a coup than a popular agitation. It remains to be seen who was behind the coup. What next for India and the region?There are several long-term challenges for India. None of this is positive for India, which is already facing problems on its periphery (eg. Maldives and Nepal). The coup in Bangladesh also makes the BIMSTEC alliance as unviable as SAARC.1. Deteriorating India-Bangladesh RelationsThe overthrow of Sheikh Hasina, seen as a close ally of India, has led to a rise in anti-Indian sentiment in Bangladesh. The new government may not be as friendly towards India, especially on sensitive issues like trade and security. This could jeopardize the gains in bilateral ties over the past decade. The presence of hardliners among the ‘advisers' to the interim government suggests that India will have little leverage going forward.2. Increased Border Security RisksIndia shares a long, porous border with Bangladesh. The political instability and potential increase in extremist groups could lead to more infiltration, smuggling, and illegal migration into India's northeastern states, posing internal security risks. Monitoring the border region will be critical. As it is, there are millions of illegal Bangladeshis and Rohingya residing in India, which actually poses a threat to internal Indian security.3. Economic FalloutBangladesh is India's largest trading partner in the region, with $13 billion in commerce under the Hasina government. A deterioration in relations could hurt Indian exports and investments. The economic interdependence means India also has a stake in Bangladesh's stability and prosperity. Brahma Chellaney pointed out that Bangladesh is in dire straits, and has requested $3 billion from the IMF, $1.5 billion from the World Bank, and $1 billion each from the Asian Development Bank and the Japan International Cooperation Agency to tide over problems. 4. Climate Change ChallengesBoth countries are vulnerable to the effects of climate change, including rising sea levels, floods, droughts and extreme weather events. Bangladesh is especially at risk due to its low-lying geography. Millions of climate refugees could seek shelter in India, straining resources and social cohesion.  5. Geopolitical ImplicationsThe regime change has opened up space for China to expand its influence in Bangladesh. India will need to balance its ties with the new government while countering Chinese inroads in the region. The U.S. is also closely watching developments in Bangladesh. Instability in the region plays into the hands of Pakistan, whose medium-term ambition would be to detach India's Northeast as revenge for the creation of Bangladesh and for increasing normalization in J&K.6. Quota ImplicationsIndians, especially those agitating for ‘proportional representation' should note that the Bangladesh quota system was abolished in its entirety by Sheikh Hasina's administration in 2018 in response to student demands. India has a constitutional limit of 50% for reservations, but some are agitating for even more, which is a sure recipe for resentment and possibly violence. It is not inconceivable that it could be the spur for regime change in India as well.7. Human rights for Hindus and Buddhists; Citizenship Amendment Act and the Right to ReturnThe Hindu population in Bangladesh has fallen dramatically from about 28% in 1971 to about 8% now, and there is every indication that this is a demographic under extreme duress. Buddhist Chakmas in the Chittagong Hill Tracts are also under stress. India should enhance the CAA or create a formal Right to Return for Hindu and Buddhist Bangladeshis. Writing in Open magazine, Rahul Shivshankar pointed out that Hindus had faced attacks and threats in 278 locations across 48 districts.In summary, the fall of the Hasina government and the long-term threat of climate change compel India to rethink its Bangladesh policy. Fostering stable, democratic and economically prosperous neighbors is in India's own interest. Rebuilding trust and deepening cooperation on shared challenges will be key to navigating the new realities in the region.2350 words, Aug 26, 2024 Get full access to Shadow Warrior at rajeevsrinivasan.substack.com/subscribe

This week we talk about student protests, curfews, and East Pakistan.We also discuss Sheikh Hasina, Myanmar, and authoritarians.Recommended Book: The Identity Trap by Yascha MounkTranscriptBangladesh is a country of about 170 million people, those people living in an area a little smaller than the US state of Illinois, a hair over 57,000 square miles.It shares a smallish southeastern border with Myanmar, and its entire southern border runs up against the Bay of Bengal, which is part of the Indian Ocean, but it's surrounded to the west, north, and most of its eastern border by India, which nearly entirely encompasses Bangladesh due to the nature of its historical formation.Back in 1905, a previously somewhat sprawling administrative region called Bengal, which has a lot history of human occupation and development, and which for the past several hundred years leading up to that point had been colonized by various Europeans, was carved-out by the British as a separate province, newly designated Eastern Bengal and Assam, at the urging of local Muslim aristocrats who were playing ball with then-governing British leaders, the lot of them having worked together to make the region one of the most profitable in British India, boasting the highest gross domestic product, and the highest per-capita income on the subcontinent, at the time.This division separated Bengal from its Hindu-dominated neighboring provinces, including nearby, and booming Calcutta, which was pissed at this development because it allowed the British to invest more directly and lavishly in an area that was already doing pretty well for itself, without risking some of that money overflowing into nearby, Hindu areas, like, for instance, Calcutta.This division also allowed local Muslim leaders to attain more political power, in part because of all that investment, but also because it freed them up to form an array of political interest groups that, because of the nature of this provincial division, allowed them to focus on the needs of Muslim citizens, and to counter the influence of remaining local Hindu landowners, and other such folks who have previously wielded an outsized portion of that power; these leaders were redistributing power in the region to Muslims over Hindus, basically, in contrast to how things worked, previously.In 1935, the British government promised to grant the Bengalese government limited provincial autonomy as part of a larger effort to set the subcontinent out on its own path, leading up to the grand decolonization effort that European nations would undergo following WWII, and though there was a significant effort to make Bengal its own country in 1946, post-war and just before the partition of British India, that effort proved futile, and those in charge of doing the carving-up instead divided the country into areas that are basically aligned with modern day India and modern day Pakistan, but two-thirds of Bengal were given to Pakistan, while one-third was given to India.This meant that a portion of Pakistan, the most populous portion, though with a smaller land area, was separated from the remainder of the country by Indian territory, and the logic of dividing things in this way was that the British wanted to basically delineate Hindu areas from Muslim areas, and while large, spread-out groups of Muslims lived roughly within the borders of modern day Pakistan, a large, more densely crowded group of Muslims lived in Bengal, hence the otherwise nonsensical-seeming decision to break a country up into two pieces in this way.Frictions developed between mainland Pakistan and the portion of Pakistan, formally Bengal, that was initially called East Bengal, and then renamed East Pakistan in 1955, almost immediately. There was a movement to get the Bengali language officially recognized as a state language, alongside Urdu, which was promoted as the exclusive federal language of Pakistan, early on, and a list of six demands were presented to the Pakistani government by East Pakistan-based politicians, all of which aimed to get the region equal representation in what they felt was a West Pakistan-biased system, despite the fact that, again, East Pakistan, formally Bengal, was the most populous part of the country, and they had the most thriving economy, as well, bringing in most of the country's income.These demands led to what's become known as the Six Points Movement, which in turn, just a few years later, kicked off the Bangladesh War of Independence, which was exactly what it sounds like: an effort by folks in East Pakistan to achieve independence from the larger government of Pakistan, which had in recent years been taken over by a military junta which, like the previous government, didn't give as much political power to Easy Pakistanis.That junta, in late March of 1971, launched a military operation called Operation Searchlight that was meant to take out separatists in East Pakistan—but in practice this meant they swooped in and started targeting academics, members of the local intelligentsia, and people of Hindu faith, alongside members of the rabble-rousing groups that were petitioning for more power in this smaller-by-landmass, but larger by population and income, segment of the country.Operation Searchlight sparked the aforementioned Bangladesh War of Independence, and nine months later, the military government's efforts during this conflict were deemed to be genocidal because of how they targeted ethnic Bengalis, killing somewhere between 300,000 and 3 million of them, while also intentionally and systematically raping hundreds of thousands of Bengali women, the soldiers who committed these acts doing so with the formal go-ahead from their government—they were told to do so, basically.These atrocities eventually pulled India into the conflict, in part because millions of Bengalis were fleeing across their border to escape the genocide, and in part because the genocide was occurring, to begin with, and that sparked the 1971 Indo-Pakistani War, which eventually led to an end to that genocide when Pakistan's government surrendered at the tail-end of 1971.That victory led to, formerly Bengal, then East Pakistan, now Bangladesh's independence from Pakistan. It also concretized India's military dominance in the region, and Pakistan, what remained of it, lost more than half its population, much of its economic base, and suffered a long period of embarrassment that left it questioning the basis of its militant, braggadocios approach to both nationalism and foreign policy; it was previously a well-respected and feared military force, but it became a somewhat eyes-downcast entity in the region for a while, lots of reforms eventually helping it shore-up its economy, but remnants of this period still percolate in its internal politics and government operation, to this day, including its antagonism toward India, and its support of local jihadist groups, which the government uses as a counterbalance against India and other local power structures, which it can no longer face head-on.What I'd like to talk about today is a swirl of new tumult in modern day Bangladesh, and what this moderate uproar might mean for the country's future.—Modern Bangladesh is surrounded by conflict.Myanmar's military government is in the midst of a civil war, following the recent overthrow of its democratically elected civilian government, and the subsequent rise and loose collaboration between rebel groups in various parts of the country.India is booming, and is broadly considered to be the next big power player on the world stage, though it's already a regional titan. It also continues to scuffle with Pakistan to its northwest, and with China along its shared borders, which are located just a short distance north of Bangladesh.Bangladesh's coast, along the Bay of Bengal, has long underperformed economically, despite being surrounded by some of the most impactful producers of goods in the world, and this coastline, including the one occupied by Bangladesh, has become incredibly unpredictable in recent years: regularly flooding, entire villages being swept out to sea, and freshwater sources increasingly tainted by those incursions of salt water.This area already has a lot going on, in other words, and many of those goings on seem primed for amplification in the coming years, as global power structures and economic tangles continue to flex and break and rearrange, and as the climate continues to behave in increasingly distressing ways; there's a political and military realignment happening in this part of the world, but geopolitics and global economics are also swirling and rearranging in all sorts of unpredictable ways.All of which serves as context for a recent series of protests that arose around Bangladesh beginning in July of 2024.These protests were held by mostly students who were not fans of a quota scheme that was originally implemented by the government in the wake of that 1971 war with Pakistan, this system abolished in 2018, but which was reimplemented by the country's High Court shortly before the protests began.And this system basically promised that 30% of all government jobs would go to the descendants of people who fought in that war against Pakistan, for independence, alongside some jobs for minority groups, folks from traditionally underrepresented districts, and people who are disabled—though mostly it was meant to honor the descendants of those veterans.The protesting students were pissed about this reimplementation because the country's economy isn't great at the moment, and unemployment is rife; the jobs that are available are not paying much, and are not terribly secure. About 18 million young people are currently unemployed in Bangladesh.Government jobs, in contrast, tend to provide some level of consistency and predictability, pay relatively well, and tend to stick around—folks in such jobs aren't worried about being fired or their jobs disappearing, because of their very nature. So the best jobs, by that standard, are government jobs, and nearly a third of those jobs have been promised to people who, in many cases, just happened to be born to the right parents or grandparents; and notably, the majority of folks with families who fought in that conflict, are also supporters of the current, authoritarian Bangladeshi government—so part of the criticism here is that these quotas offer a means of giving cushy, reliable jobs to supporters of the current regime, without seeming like that's what they're doing.These peaceful student protests were met with heavy resistance and violence by the government, which deployed police and soldiers who shot at protestors and shut down universities and the internet in the country, and that led to more protests, including by non-students, who were also met with at times deadly force.About 150 people have been confirmed killed, so far, though that's the government's figure, and other, independent counts have tallied more than 200 dead. Hundreds of protestors were also arrested and curfews were implemented.The Supreme Court responded to the initial protests by reducing the quota in late July, to the point that about 5% of government jobs would go to descendants of those veterans, which in practice meant about 93% of all government jobs would be divvied-out in a normal way, hiring people based on who's the best candidate.Protests largely ceased after that announcement, and the government restored internet services 11 days after shutting it down across the country. Social media platforms like WhatsApp and TikTok remain restricted, however, as these services were used to promote and organize protests.Curfews have also been relaxed somewhat, though police are reportedly sweeping through schools and cities, grabbing people who were recorded at protests, arresting thousands of them, including at least half a dozen students who led the initial protests that kicked everything off.Protest leaders are now demanding that the remaining curfews be lifted, that those who were arrested are released, charges against them dropped, and that the leaders responsible for the heavy-handed response should resign.Some protestors have also called for the country's Prime Minister, Sheikh Hasina, to step down, as she initially called the students traitors, though she later backtracked and said she didn't want them to be harmed.Hasina is the longest-serving Prime Minister in Bangladeshi history, having initially stepped into the position in 1996, then stepping back into the role in 2009—she's held the office ever since.She's generally considered to be an authoritarian, and has been accused of fixing elections, extrajudicial killings, and the imprisonment, or worse, of politicians and journalists who challenge her in any way.She is, given all that, then, perhaps not surprisingly blaming these protests not on the students—not any longer, at least—but instead on opposition political parties who she says are attempting to challenge her rule, and thus, the wellbeing of the country as a whole.Given that this is a relatively well-established authoritarian regime, there's a nonzero chance those who are in charge of these protests will take the win with the quota system, even though it wasn't fully removed, and step back from these other, more substantial demands that are unlikely to be met, short of perhaps a token resignation here and there by lower-run government officials who take the bullet for those higher up.Outside demands for impartial investigations into who caused what are likewise unlikely to move forward, and the government has made it pretty clear it intends to double-down on the "it's the political opposition doing this to us, and you" narrative, which could help them justify further clamping-down on these groups, even to the point of more imprisonments and killings, but bare-minimum, in such a way that it makes dislodging the current ruling party even more difficult in the future.It's possible that tumult elsewhere around the world, including in Bangladesh's own backyard, might encourage overreaction, not under reaction, from those in charge, as Myanmar's military government is having a lot of trouble with rebels, these days, and while it's not impossible that the prime minister will give in to more moderate demands, publicly apologizing for the violent response and firing some of her higher-level ministers, her government's history hints that things are more likely to tilt in the other direction, at least for the foreseeable future, and at least if the protestors fail to scale-up their operations to incorporate more of the country's population than they have, thus far.At the moment, then, things have calmed a bit in terms of protests and government responses to those protests in Bangladesh. But there are elements to this story that have made things even more volatile than they already were, and because of how uncertain so many variables in the region are right now, there's a chance we'll see this, or connected movements and storylines, bubble back up at some point in the near-future.Show Noteshttps://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/bay-of-bengal-climate-change/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Hasinahttps://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/bangladesh-protests-quelled-anger-discontent-remain-2024-07-26/https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/26/bangladesh-student-protests-mass-movement-against-dictatorhttps://apnews.com/article/bangladesh-campus-violence-hasina-bc513b6d68cf5b94cfd898f3c7f153d2https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/bangladesh-student-group-vows-to-resume-protests-if-demands-not-met/article68456310.ecehttps://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/25/bangladesh-minister-defends-govt-response-to-protests-amid-calls-for-probehttps://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/7/24/bangladeshs-deadly-protests-explainedhttps://www.britannica.com/topic/largest-U-S-state-by-areahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladeshhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_war_of_1971 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit letsknowthings.substack.com/subscribe

In Episode 4, Ladan and Alia chat about the disastrous Presidential debate between former president Trump and the incumbent Genoc*de Joe. We also discuss anti-Palestinian racism, and the Labour Party who apparently now have a problem with Bengalis too - to add to the list of ethnic monitories and Muslims they already dislike.

Content warning for discussion of genocide, torture, mutilation, rape, and slavery Hey, Hi, Hello, this is the History Wizard and welcome back for Day 14 of Have a Day w/ The History Wizard. Thank you to everyone who tuned in for Day 13 last week, and especially thank you to everyone who rated and/or reviewed the podcast. I hope you all learned something last week and I hope the same for this week. This week marks the 5th part of our mini series of currently ongoing genocides and humanitarian crises. Episode 2 was on Palestine, Episode 11 was on Congo, episode 12 was on Sudan, episode 13 was on Xinjiang, and today's episode will talk about the genocide of the Rohingya people of Myanmar. It's officially the end of week 2! We made it. Congratulations one and all on surviving 2 weeks worth of weeks. As a gift for you all we're going to visit the Alchemist's Table. Today;s libation is called Prohibition Sweet Tooth. It's 1.5 ounces each of Redemption Bourbon and Creme de Cacao, followed by .75 oz of Frangelico. Shake well and pour over ice. Officially the Rohingya genocide began around 2016 and continues to this day, but as we know from every other episode we've had so far, genocide's don't just pop up out of nowhere all of the sudden. There is context, there is a roadmap of hindsight that we can follow back to, if not a starting point at least a starting line. So, first, let's talk about Myanmar. There have been homonid species living on Myanmar for about 750,000 years, first in the form of Homo erectus and then Homo sapiens starting around 25,000 years ago. Then a whole lot of history happened that, while fascinating and important, isn't strictly relevant to what we're going to discuss today. Starting on January 1, 1886 Myanmar (then called Burma) was officially annexed by the British Empire under the control of the British East India Company. Burma would remain under British rule until 1948. Burma was officially declared an independent state by an act of Parliament, specifically the Burma Independence Act 1947. Burma then remained under a civilian government until 1962, at which point it was overthrown in a coup detat and Burma (which became Myanmar officially in 1989) has been under military rule since then. Between 1962 and 1974, Myanmar was ruled by a revolutionary council headed by the general. Almost all aspects of society (business, media, production) were nationalised or brought under government control under the Burmese Way to Socialism, which combined Soviet-style nationalisation and central planning. A long series of anti-government protests resulted in a popular uprising in 1988, sometimes called the 8888 Uprising. This would lead directly to the renaming of the country from Burma to Myanmar and the country's first free, multiparty elections in 30 years. So, as you can see Myanmar has had an interesting and contentious history born of a desire for a strong sense of national unity, stability, and growth. It was the instability of the civilian government, the lack of growth, the skyrocketing crime rates, and the fear of the disintegration of Burma into several smaller nations that would lead to the 1962 coup after all. When your country has such a strong, almost rabid desire for unity and strength and national identity it always goes hand in hand with a desire for a homogenous society. The Germans in World War 2 felt it. The Ottomans in World War 1 felt it. It's what nations who fear their own collapse DO. They look for the divisive elements, the ones who don't fit the majority mold and they say “Hey, these people won't fall in line. They're dividing out country, threatening it with their different religion, culture, values, etc. We can solve all of our problems, save our country if we just… get rid of them”. Myanmar is a Buddhist majority country, by an overwhelming margin. According to the 2014 Myanmar census 90% of the country's population (of about 56 million) is Buddhist. 6.3% is Christian and just over 2% is Muslim. The Rohingya people, the subjects of our episode for today and Mulsim, so let's dive back and take a look at the history of Muslim persecution in Myanmar. The first Muslim documented in Burmese history (recorded in the Glass Palace Chronicle) was Byat Wi during the reign of Mon, a Thaton king, circa 1050 AD. The two sons of Byat Wi's brother Byat Ta, known as Shwe Byin brothers, were executed as children either because of their Islamic faith, or because they refused forced labor. Throughout the premodern era various restrictions were placed on Muslim communities in Burma. The Burmese king Bayinnaung banned Islamic ritual slaughter, thereby prohibiting Muslims from consuming halal meals of goats and chicken. He also banned Eid al-Adha and Qurbani, regarding killing animals in the name of religion as a cruel custom. Burma having largely adopted Buddhism by the 12th century CE. Although, in a strange, cruel, and somewhat ironic twist King Bodawpaya from 1782–1819 arrested four prominent Burmese Muslim Imams from Myedu and killed them in Ava, the capital, after they refused to eat pork. According to the Myedu Muslim and Burma Muslim version, Bodawpaya later apologized for the killings and recognised the Imams as saints. During the "Burma for Burmese" campaign in the late 1930s, a violent demonstration took place in Surti Bazaar, a Muslim area. When the police, who were ethnically Indian (there was a lot of anti-Indian sentiment in Burma in the 1930s, and because most Indian people living in Burma were Muslim, this also affected Muslim Burmese people), tried to break up the demonstration, three monks were injured. Images of monks being injured by ethnically Indian policemen were circulated by Burmese newspapers, provoking riots. Muslim properties, including shops and houses were looted. According to official sources, 204 Muslims were killed and over 1,000 were injured. 113 mosques were damaged. Panglong, a Chinese Muslim town in British Burma, was entirely destroyed by the Japanese invaders in the Japanese invasion of Burma in World War 2. And, after the 1962 coup all Muslim troops were expelled from the Army.  And, of course, we need to talk about the 1997 Mandalay Riots. Mandalay is the second largest city in Myanmar. a mob of 1,000–1,500 Buddhist monks and others shouted anti-Muslim slogans as they targeted mosques, shop-houses, and vehicles that were in the vicinity of mosques for destruction. Looting, the burning of religious books, acts of sacrilege, and vandalizing Muslim-owned establishments were also common. At least three people were killed and around 100 monks arrested. The unrest in Mandalay allegedly began after reports of an attempted rape of a girl by Muslim men, though there's no way to know if that story is true or not. In 2001, anti-Muslim pamphlets, most notably The Fear of Losing One's Race, were widely distributed by monks. Many Muslims feel that this exacerbated the anti-Muslim feelings that had been provoked by the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanistan. (The Buddhas are two giant statues in the Bamiyan Valley of Afghanistan that daye from about the 6th century CE, they have long been considered a holy site by Buddhists and they were destroyed by the Talbian in 2001). And that's why on 15 May 2001, anti-Muslim riots broke out in Taungoo, Pegu division, resulting in the deaths of about 200 Muslims, in the destruction of 11 mosques and the setting ablaze of over 400 houses. On 15 May, the first day of the anti-Muslim uprisings, about 20 Muslims who were praying in the Han Tha mosque were killed and some were beaten to death by the pro-junta forces. Now, something that we need to discuss before I forget to is that since 1982 the Rohingya have been denied voting rights and citizenship within Myanmar thanks to the 1982 Citizenship Law. The law created three categories of citizenship: the first category applied to ethnic Burmans and members of the Kachin, Kayah, Karen, Mon, Arakan Buddhists, Shan, and any other ethnic group present in Myanmar prior to 1823 (though they did not include Rohingya Muslims, rendering them stateless), granted them full citizenship. The second category granted partial “associate” citizenship to the children of mixed marriages where one parents fell into the first category, as well as to individuals who had lived in Myanmar for five consecutive years, or to individuals who lived in Myanmar for eight out of the ten years prior to independence. Associate citizens could earn an income, but could not serve in political office. The third category applied to the offspring of immigrants who arrived in Myanmar during the period of British colonial rule. When we look at the state of Myanmar during the 20th century we can very clearly see Levels 3 and 4 of the Pyramid of Hate. The Pyramid of Hate was created in the mid aughts and was based on the Alport Scale of Prejudice created by psychologist Gordon Alport in the 1950s. Simply put the five levels, going from bottom to top are thoughts, words, discriminatory policy, violence towards individuals because of their membership to the group and violence against the cultural markers of the group, and finally genocide. Myanmar, very obviously has and had discriminatory policy and violence towards individuals and their cultural markers. Massacres, riots, burning Qurans and mosques all fit under level 4. But, of course, things can and did get worse. There was the 2012 Rakhine State riots. Sectarian violence erupted between the Rakhine ethnic group and the Rohingya and ended with most of the Rohingya population of Sittwe, the capital of the Rakhine State being expelled. Over the course of the riots that lasted most of June and erupted again in October a little over 160 people were killed and over 100,000 Rohingya were displaced. We are now in our time of rapid escalation of violence as the next major anti Rohingya event would occur in March of 2013. But before we talk about the 2013 riots we need to talk about the 969 Movement. The 969 is a violently Islamophobic Buddhist Nationalist organization founded and run by Ashin Wirathu. Time for a slight diversion for a fun fact: The three digits of 969 "symbolize the virtues of the Buddha, Buddhist practices and the Buddhist community". The first 9 stands for the nine special attributes of the Buddha and the 6 for the six special attributes of his Dharma, or Buddhist Teachings, and the last 9 represents the nine special attributes of Buddhist Sangha (monastic community). Those special attributes are the Three Jewels of the Buddha. Wirathu claims that he does not advocate for violence against Muslims and that all he wants is peace, and yet in a Time magazine article he had this to say: "You can be full of kindness and love, but you cannot sleep next to a mad dog", Wirathu said, referring to Muslims. "If we are weak", he said, "our land will become Muslim". The 2013 riots were particularly brutal. One incident involved several Muslim teenagers dragging a Buddhist man off of his bike and setting him on fire. As well as the deadliest incident of the riot which occurred when a Buddhist mob attacked and torched the Mingalar Zayone Islamic Boarding School. While outnumbered security forces stood by, rioters armed with machetes, metal pipes, chains, and stones killed 32 teenage students and four teachers. Now, while 2016 would be the “official” start of the genocide we would be remiss if we skipped over the 2015 refugee crisis. In 2015, hundreds of thousands of Rohingyas in Myanmar and Bangladesh fled from religious persecution and continued denial of basic rights in their home countries by means of boat travel, often through previously existing smuggling routes among the Southeast Asian waters. Many Rohingyas fled to Indonesia and Malaysia, which both adopted a stance open to acceptance of the Rohingya refugees still at sea in mid-May. And now we're at the genocide itself, though before we do that, let's take a look at that the US State Department had to say about Myanmar and Rakhine shortly before the shit hit the fan. The situation in Rakhine State is grim, in part due to a mix of long-term historical tensions between the Rakhine and Rohingya communities, socio-political conflict, socio-economic underdevelopment, and a long-standing marginalisation of both Rakhine and Rohingya by the Government of Burma. The World Bank estimates Rakhine State has the highest poverty rate in Burma (78 per cent) and is the poorest state in the country. The lack of investment by the central government has resulted in poor infrastructure and inferior social services, while lack of rule of law has led to inadequate security conditions. Members of the Rohingya community in particular reportedly face abuses by the Government of Burma, including those involving torture, unlawful arrest and detention, restricted movement, restrictions on religious practice, and discrimination in employment and access to social services. In 2012, the intercommunal conflict led to the death of nearly 200 Rohingya and the displacement of 140,000 people. Throughout 2013–2015 isolated incidents of violence against Rohingya individuals continued to take place. In 2016 a Rohingya resistance group known as Harakah al-Yaqin formed and attacked several border police posts leaving 9 officers dead and looting as many munitions as they could. In response to this the government of Myanmar immediately began cracking down on all Rohingya people as quickly and viscously as they could. In the initial operation, dozens of people were killed, and many were arrested. Casualties increased as the crackdown continued. Arbitrary arrest, extrajudicial killings, gang rapes, brutalities against civilians, and looting were carried out. Media reports stated hundreds of Rohingya people had been killed by December 2016, and many had fled Myanmar as refugees to take shelter in the nearby areas of Bangladesh. Those who fled Myanmar to escape persecution reported that women had been gang raped, men were killed, houses were torched, and young children were thrown into burning houses. Boats carrying Rohingya refugees on the Naf River were often gunned down by the Burmese military. In a report published in March 2024, the IIMM stated the military had in a "systematic and coordinated" manner "spread material designed to instil fear and hatred of the Rohingya minority". The report found military was used dozens of seemingly unrelated Facebook pages to spread hate speech against the Rohingya prior before the 2017 Rohingya genocide. This is similar in intent to the use of radio stations to spread constant anti Tutsi propaganda during the Rwandan genocide, though obviously as information technology advances methods get more sophisticated. Though I hesitate to call Facebook sophisticated.. In August 2018, a study estimated that more than 24,000 Rohingya people were killed by the Burmese military and local Buddhists since the "clearance operations" which had started on 25 August 2017. The study also estimated that over 18,000 Rohingya Muslim women and girls were raped, 116,000 Rohingyans were beaten, and 36,000 Rohingyans were thrown into fires. It was also reported that at least 6,700 to 7,000 Rohingya people including 730 children were killed in the first month alone since the crackdown started. In September 2018, the U.N. Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on Myanmar released a report stating that at least 392 Rohingya villages in Rakhine State had been razed to the ground since 25 August 2017. Earlier, Human Rights Watch in December 2017 said it had found that 354 Rohingya villages in Rakhine state were burnt down and destroyed by the Myanmar military. In November 2017, both the UN officials and the Human Rights Watch reported that the Armed Forces of Myanmar had committed widespread gang rapes and other forms of sexual violence against the Rohingya Muslim women and girls for the prior three months. HRW stated that the gang rapes and sexual violence were committed as part of the military's ethnic cleansing campaign while Pramila Patten, the United Nations Special Representative of the Secretary General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, said that the Rohingya women and girls were made the "systematic" target of rapes and sexual violence because of their ethnic identity and religion. In February 2018, it was reported that the Burmese military bulldozed and flattened the burnt Rohingya villages and mass graves in order to destroy the evidence of atrocities committed. These villages were inhabited by the Rohingya people before they were burnt down by the Burmese military during the 2017 crackdown. Since the 25 August incident, Myanmar blocked media access and the visits of international bodies to Rakhine State. Rakhine State has been called an information black hole. According to the Mission report of OHCHR (released on 11 October 2017 by the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights), the Burmenese military began a "systematic" process of driving hundreds of thousands of Rohingya from Myanmar in early August 2017. The report noted that "prior to the incidents and crackdown of 25 August, a strategy was pursued to": Arrest and arbitrarily detain male Rohingyas between the ages of 15–40 years; Arrest and arbitrarily detain Rohingya opinion-makers, leaders and cultural and religious personalities; Initiate acts to deprive Rohingya villagers of access to food, livelihoods and other means of conducting daily activities and life; Commit repeated acts of humiliation and violence prior to, during and after 25 August, to drive out Rohingya villagers en masse through incitement to hatred, violence, and killings, including by declaring the Rohingyas as Bengalis and illegal settlers in Myanmar; Instill deep and widespread fear and trauma – physical, emotional and psychological, in the Rohingya victims via acts of brutality, namely killings, disappearances, torture, and rape and other forms of sexual violence. In addition to the massive and horrific amounts of violence that are occuring, even now, inside Myanmar there is also the refugee crisis we mentioned earlier. There are over 700,000 Rohingya people who have been displaced from their homes and are living in refugee camps in surrounding countries. Most fled to Bangladesh while others escaped to India, Thailand, Malaysia, and other parts of South and Southeast Asia. On 12 September 2018, the OHCHR Independent Fact-Finding Mission on Myanmar published its report to the United Nations Human Rights Council. Following 875 interviews with victims and eyewitnesses since 2011, it concluded that "the [Burmese] military has consistently failed to respect international human rights law and the international humanitarian law principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution." Even before the most recent incident of mass Rohingya displacement began in 2011, the report found that the restrictions on travel, birth registration, and education resulting from Rohingya statelessness violated the Rohingya people's human rights. During the mass displacement of almost 725,000 Rohingya by August 2018 to neighbouring Bangladesh, as a result of persecution by the Tatmadaw, the report recorded "gross human rights violations and abuses" such as mass rape, murder, torture, and imprisonment. It also accused the Tatmadaw of crimes against humanity, genocide, and ethnic cleansing. The mission report recommended that six Burmese generals in the Tatmadaw stand trial in an international tribune for atrocities committed against the Rohingya. Despite all this the UN refuses to do anything substantive. Instead they are still trying to cooperate with the Tatmadaw and convince them to stop committing genocide. The UN has always been a useless tool of appeasement, Western imperialism, and white supremacy that refuses to hold anyone accountable. Of course, if the UN held genocidal regimes accountable they'd have to arrest the entire permanent Security Council so, the lack of accountability isn't surprising. It's why cops don't arrest other cops. You may have noticed that the dates in this episode stop after 2018, you also might remember that Myanmar has been called an information black hole. The genocide is still ongoing, nothing has gotten better and it's probably gotten worse, but getting verifiable information out of Myanmar is all but impossible at this point. Keep Myanmar in your sight. That's it for this week folks. No new reviews, so let's get right into the outro. Have a Day! w/ The History Wizard is brought to you by me, The History Wizard. If you want to see/hear more of me you can find me on Tiktok @thehistorywizard or on Instagram @the_history_wizard. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to Have a Day! On your pod catcher of choice. The more you do, the more people will be able to listen and learn along with you. Thank you  for sticking around until the end and, as always, Have a Day, and Free Rakhine.    

Dieses Mal haben wir uns das Matchup vorgenommen, in dem Felix seine 1800 1v1 Elo errungen hat: Ungarn gegen Bengalis. Dabei sprechen wir darüber, wieso die beiden Zivilisationen so grundsätzlich unterschiedlich sind, wie man damit aus beiden Richtungen umgehen kann und welche Optionen dabei überhaupt übrig bleiben. Außerdem berichtet Felix von einer Armee-Komposition, die er sich von MbL für derartige Matchups abgeguckt hat. Viel Spaß beim Hören Christian & Felix Ihr möchtet unser Projekt unterstützen? Dann geht das hier: steadyhq.com/de/startthegamealready/ Homepage: www.startthegamealready.de Discord: discord.com/invite/SYp9dCXYsK Musik: Victory aus dem offiziellen Age of Empires I DE Soundtrack Age of Empires II © Microsoft Corporation. This content was created under Microsoft's "Game Content Usage Rules" using assets from Age of Empires II, and it is not endorsed by or affiliated with Microsoft.

Segundo o mais recente estudo do Banco de Portugal, o número de trabalhadores estrangeiros por conta de outrem, registados na Segurança Social, aumentou quase nove vezes na última década, totalizando perto de meio milhão, em 2023See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Diverse Voices Book Review contributor Chaitali Sen interviewed Gemini Wahhaj, author of the debut novel The Children of this Madness.  In The Children of this Madness, Gemini Wahhaj pens a complex tale of modern Bengalis, one that illuminates the recent histories not only of Bangladesh, but America and Iraq. Told in multiple voices over successive eras, this is the story of Nasir Uddin and his daughter Beena, and the intersection of their distant, vastly different lives.Gemini Wahhaj is a Bangladeshi American writer living in the US. She wrote her debut novel The Children of This Madness as a new immigrant in the US, while she was a graduate student in the creative writing program at the University of Houston and war raged in Iraq.Diverse Voices Book Review Social Media:Facebook - @diversevoicesbookreviewInstagram - @diverse_voices_book_reviewTwitter - @diversebookshayEmail: hbh@diversevoicesbookreview.com

Winston Churchill is one of the most beloved and revered politicians of the modern age. He also has the blood of somewhere between three and six million Bengalis, then British citizens, on his hands. In this episode we delve into the history of the Bengal Famine of 1943, and how the policies of denial that the British War Cabinet, headed by Churchill, enacted upon the region resulted in millions of civilian deaths. Watch in video at: https://www.youtube.com/@RespecttheDeadPodcast Want an exclusive video episode about Churchill? Sign up at ➡ https://www.patreon.com/RespectTheDead Hoots: https://www.youtube.com/@hootsyoutube // https://twitter.com/punishedhoots Caelan: https://www.youtube.com/@caelanconrad // https://twitter.com/caelanconrad

In The Children of this Madness, Gemini Wahhaj pens a complex tale of modern Bengalis, one that illuminates the recent histories not only of Bangladesh, but America and Iraq. Told in multiple voices over successive eras, this is the story of Nasir Uddin and his daughter Beena, and the intersection of their distant, vastly different lives.

Sukumar Ray is sometimes called the Edward Lear of Bengal. Abol Tabol his book of nonsense rhymes was part of my growing up. And I dare say every Bengalis. That book turned 100 this year. Now we understand why his nonsense still makes so much sense.

As I start my final run in the content business, I'm going all out. No more celebrities because the community has a lot more to offer and I cannot wait to share my BeDeshi Homies with you. They will take over the content scene in no time. Hope you enjoy the bonus - improv episode. Season 3 and Ep 20 : Up Next This Week. The best in the business returns --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/azadfm/message

Urmi Hossain grew up in the cities of Palermo, Vigevano, and Milan, Italy. Her family moved to London for one year before moving back to Italy where they then settled in Milan. She then moved to Montreal, Canada to pursue an undergraduate degree in finance. Upon completion, she stayed in Montreal to begin her career and still resides there.In her book, Discovering Your Identity, a Rebirth from Interracial Struggle, Urmi expounds on the reality of being a “third culture kid.” Being a mix of Italian and Bengali culture, Urmi has struggled to find which nationality she identifies with.Growing up in Italy, Urmi has always felt more Italian than Bengali as she considers Italy as “home.” Despite London having a large community of Italians and Bengalis, to her, it never quite felt like home. It wasn't until arriving in the melting pot of Montreal Canada, she began to discover her true cultural identity. Urmi loves volunteering as she believes in the power of giving back to her community. As the leader and social media manager of the Women in Leadership Organization Victoria Chapter, Urmi advocates for women's empowerment and is very passionate about serving as a teacher and mentor for young women. Urmi also serves as the VP of Education for Toastmasters and a bucket list goal of hers is to deliver a TED talk. Urmi has been all over Italy and the go-to cities to visit are Rome and Venice. Outside of Italy, she enjoys Barcelona, Spain, and Switzerland. In North America, Urmi's favorite US cities are New York and Boston, and she loves the tropical oases of Cancun, Mexico, and the Dominican Republic. She wishes to travel to Peru, Bali, South Africa, Brazil, Morocco and the Maldives.Alongside finance, public speaking, writing, mentoring, blogging, and travel, Urmi has many hobbies, which include reading 12 books each year, baking and pasta making, practicing Muay Thai, and watching Korean soap operas and Bollywood movies. Urmi fluently speaks Italian, Bengali, English, and French and she is currently working to master Spanish. She loves pasta, chocolate, and coffee from around the world. Any activity that is high intensity or that involves learning, Urmi is up for it. As a “student of life,” Urmi is constantly hungry to learn and curious about all things.

Urmi Hossain grew up in the cities of Palermo, Vigevano, and Milan, Italy. Her family moved to London for one year before moving back to Italy where they then settled in Milan. She then moved to Montreal, Canada to pursue an undergraduate degree in finance. Upon completion, she stayed in Montreal to begin her career and still resides there.In her book, Discovering Your Identity, a Rebirth from Interracial Struggle, Urmi expounds on the reality of being a “third culture kid.” Being a mix of Italian and Bengali culture, Urmi has struggled to find which nationality she identifies with.Growing up in Italy, Urmi has always felt more Italian than Bengali as she considers Italy as “home.” Despite London having a large community of Italians and Bengalis, to her, it never quite felt like home. It wasn't until arriving in the melting pot of Montreal Canada, she began to discover her true cultural identity. Urmi loves volunteering as she believes in the power of giving back to her community. As the leader and social media manager of the Women in Leadership Organization Victoria Chapter, Urmi advocates for women's empowerment and is very passionate about serving as a teacher and mentor for young women. Urmi also serves as the VP of Education for Toastmasters and a bucket list goal of hers is to deliver a TED talk. Urmi has been all over Italy and the go-to cities to visit are Rome and Venice. Outside of Italy, she enjoys Barcelona, Spain, and Switzerland. In North America, Urmi's favorite US cities are New York and Boston, and she loves the tropical oases of Cancun, Mexico, and the Dominican Republic. She wishes to travel to Peru, Bali, South Africa, Brazil, Morocco and the Maldives.Alongside finance, public speaking, writing, mentoring, blogging, and travel, Urmi has many hobbies, which include reading 12 books each year, baking and pasta making, practicing Muay Thai, and watching Korean soap operas and Bollywood movies. Urmi fluently speaks Italian, Bengali, English, and French and she is currently working to master Spanish. She loves pasta, chocolate, and coffee from around the world. Any activity that is high intensity or that involves learning, Urmi is up for it. As a “student of life,” Urmi is constantly hungry to learn and curious about all things.

This episode Souvik Naha gives a paper on the relationship between cricket, nationalism and postcolonial identities in 20th century India. What cricket tells us about the making of a postcolonial city Indian cricket mobilized a large and diverse popular following in the twentieth century. What was so special about cricket and why was it so important to a large number of people? Why do postcolonial Indians identify with the colonial game the way they do? Is the engagement with English culture a mechanism for empowering and modernising themselves? What does cricket tell us about the making of a public culture? This presentation, based on my book Cricket, Public Culture, and the Making of Postcolonial Calcutta, will discuss the moulding of the Indian public as cricket followers and cricket's role in the emergence of a postcolonial society. Through thematic explorations of cricket's significance for the people of Calcutta, it will explore the making of public culture in a postcolonial city. The followers and critics of cricket in Calcutta are the protagonists in this history. A study of their entanglement offers two important insights into the making of postcolonial society. First, it enables us to understand how people attach symbolic values to cultural forms to reimagine and reinvent themselves. Second, it enhances the analytical value of cricket as a cultural tool that empowered, modernised, and gave new meanings to its community. Souvik Naha's doctoral research at ETH Zurich, funded by a Swiss Government Excellence Scholarship, examined how journalists and broadcasters popularised cricket as an ideal everyday leisure activity in twentieth-century Calcutta. In doing so, it shed light on the dynamics of cultural transfer and the afterlife of colonialism in a decolonising society, integrating the histories of everyday life, popular culture, regional politics, and the transnational circulation of ideas in a postcolonial context. This research led to a monograph that explored how cricket gave the Bengalis of postcolonial Calcutta a tool to understand and form themselves as a cultural community, creating new social relationships. Prior to joining the University of Glasgow Souvik taught History at the West Bengal State University and the Indian Institute of Management Rohtak. He also held a Marie Skłodowska-Curie Actions Individual Fellowship at Durham University. This project extended his work on decolonisation by examining cricket's significance as a tool of reshaping Indo-British relationship after India's independence, focussing on issues of race, mobility, migration, diplomacy, and environment. This research has laid the foundation for his second monograph, which will examine the role of sport in recasting the British World and the Commonwealth in the 1940s-60s.

The consumption of non-vegetarian food is not a big deal in West Bengal. As far as Bongs are concerned, it is just food. And they love it. In this week's #SharpEdge video column, author and columnist Vir Sanghvi says if Bengalis eat mutton rolls at Puja pandals, good for them. Stop Talibanisation of Hinduism.

Last time we spoke about the end to the battle over Vella Lavella, the continued offensive against Finschhafen and some special operations. The Naval battle of Vella Lavella saw the last fight over the island and another successful evacuation. Over on New Guinea the fight for the Finschhafen area continued to rage on, but ultimately was crashing to a bit of a halt for the allies as they moved cautiously and awaited further reinforcements before taking the the fight to places like sattelberg. Then we spoke about some special operations to explode mines against enemy ships at Singapore harbor, a new network of coastwatchers 2.0 and the Japanese finally cracking down on poor little Portuguese held Macau. Some ships were blown up, some unfortunate souls were captured in Aitape and the Japanese basically made Macau a protectorate.  This episode is on to Shaggy Ridge Welcome to the Pacific War Podcast Week by Week, I am your dutiful host Craig Watson. But, before we start I want to also remind you this podcast is only made possible through the efforts of Kings and Generals over at Youtube. Perhaps you want to learn more about world war two? Kings and Generals have an assortment of episodes on world war two and much more  so go give them a look over on Youtube. So please subscribe to Kings and Generals over at Youtube and to continue helping us produce this content please check out www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals. If you are still hungry for some more history related content, over on my channel, the Pacific War Channel you can find a few videos all the way from the Opium Wars of the 1800's until the end of the Pacific War in 1945.    The Japanese had once entered the Southwest Pacific as conquerors, rapidly grabbed forward bases in places like New Britain, New Guinea and the Southern Solomon Islands. Yet now in 1943, they were being pushed back, their resources were shrinking and their troops morale was crashing. With the allies becoming stronger with each passing day, General Imamura and Admiral Kusaka had very little hope of emerging victorious in the coming battles. All either man could do was prepare the best possible defenses they could and hope for a miracle to delay the allied advance. General Nakai's forces prepared to make a stand on the Finisterre range and General Katagiri prepared a counterattack against Finschhafen.  Over in New Guinea, General Vasey's men were continuing their fight against Nakai in the Finisterre Range. Since their advance on October 9th, Colonel Bishop's 2/27th battalion had dug in on Trevor's ridge and John's Knoll. Just after dawn on October 10th, a small enemy force charged up Trevor's ridge. The small attack was beaten back, the battalions diarist wrote of the action “Tojo startled the early morning air with his usual heathen chorus, known to so many as a prelude to an attack; however, 13 Platoon showed him the error of his ways by killing two and wounding one of the six noisy intruders.” Meanwhile the bulk of the 2nd battalion, 78th regiment had pulled back to a place known as Shaggy Ridge which dominated the area around it. Shaggy Ridge stood 5600 feet tall with only a single track going along its ridge line. Lachlan Grant would describe the track "had places. . . only wide enough for one man to pass with sheer drops on either side". The Japanese had concentrated along the Faria river area seeking to unleash another counter attack. They just received reinforcements in the form of the 1st battalion, 78th regiment. Company 3 were sent to Gurumbu, Company 4 to Boganon, Companies 1 and 2 went to help out the 2nd battalion while one company began to attack Australian supply lines at Pallier's hill. During the afternoon two Japanese artillery pieces began to open fire from the Faria river area at very close range. The first shell passed close to the top of Trevor's Ridge, causing native carriers to freak out and disperse while the shell exploded thousands of yards father on. By 2pm Bombardier Leggo acting as F.O.O noticed the gun flash and launched a counter battery against it using a 25 pounder at a range of around 8000 yards. He successfully silence the mountains guns for awhile. The Japanese guns would fire later that afternoon at nearly point blank range, hitting the battalions area causing 8 casualties, but Leggo once again silence the guns. Meanwhile, Brigadier Dougherty ordered his 2/14th to hold a position at Kumbarum to support Bishop's advance while Brigadier Eather ordered his 2/33rd battalion to mop up the Japanese out of the Boganon mountain area. The 2/3rd quickly advanced up a track going 4100 feet high into the Boganon mountains. At 5pm Kittyhawks strafed the Japanese positions at the crest of a ridge and a Boomerang dropped a message on the advancing men that told them the Japanese were in foxholes and trenches immediately over looking them. During the aerial attacks the Japanese tried to fire back using machine gun and rifles, but doing so apparently they did not see a forward company of the 2/33rd closing in on them. The 2/33rd crept up the ridge under the cover of darkness as the Japanese were unaware too busy during daylight hours focusing on the Kittyhawks. During the night the Australians surprise attacked the Japanese sending them into a flight, man men at first ran then got themselves together trying to fight but by that time the momentum was on the side of the Australians who soon seized the ridge. On October 10th, Vasey ordered his forces to patrol extensively. The 2/7th was patrolling the Kesawai area; the 2/2nd concentrating in the Faita area; the 2/16th went west of Bebei and the 2/27th patrolled around Trevor's ridge towards the faria river. The 2/27th skirmished with the enemy who were defending their artillery positions. To the east of the Faria and Uria Rivers the 2/33rd were patrolling past the feature they just captured. Their patrols ran into ambushes and were forced to pull back. On October 11th, Japanese raiding parties attacked a supply line going between the 2/14th and 2/27th battalions forcing the former to send a platoon to seize Palliers Hill. A platoon of the 2/14th led by Lt Pallier. The were only able to advance up the hill in a single fill as most of it was to steep. At around 5 pm men atop the nearby Kings Hill supported them with artillery, mortars and machine guns. The support was so strong, Palliers platoon made it up the first mound without opposition. Upon the mound Pallier deployed a Bren gun and 2 inch mortars. Palliers men were surprised at the lack of enemy fire and rapidly made their way up Pallier's Hill. As they got closer to the summit artillery stopped, leaving just mortars and machine gun fire support. The hill began even steeper and when they got within 20 yards of the Japanese their support fire ceased. The Japanese were about a company in strength and began firing everything they had. During the mayhem at a critical moment many Japanese raised their heads from their weapon pits and rolled grenades down on the Australians 20 feet below. Most of them rolled too far down doing no damage. The Australians began tossing their own grenades as they charged forward driving the enemy out. Lt Palliers platoon had attacked a Japanese company well entrenched in a seemingly impregnable position routing them it was outstanding. Despite the heavy support getting up the hill, the Japanese should have easily held their positions. Pallier lost 3 men dead and 5 wounded including himself while they killed an estimated 30 Japanese and captured vital ground to keep their supply line running. The capture of Palliers hill was of a great relief to Dougherty who watched the thing personally. Had the supply line been cut longer the 2/27th may have run out of ammunition and rations. Back over in the Finschhafen area, Brigadier Windeyer now realized he needed to seize Sattelberg in order to secure his gains. General Yamada continued his attacks against the most forward Australian position at Jivevaneng. At 6:15am on October the first the Japanese cut the telephone lines to the Australians forward positions and began probing their lines with attacks. The Japanese were driven off with 2 and 3 inch mortars while the Australians cautiously made their way up the Sattelberg road. They were about at quarter mile from their objective when the leading platoons leader, Lt Dost was shot dead. Lt Richardson took another platoon forward to investigate and was wounded by gunfire. By this point the defensive lines had repulsed numerous attacks. Both sides were taking heavy casualties, but the Japanese were failing to stop the advance. Still the 2/43rd were forced to dig in around 400 yards from their besieged company.  After the technical fall of Finschhafen, Windeyer assigned most of his brigade to defend the southern portion of it while the 2/17th advance north to capture Kumawa. Windeyer was realizing the dual tasks were simply too much for his meager forces but luckily for him, Generals Herring and Wootten held a meeting at Lae on September 30th, where they decided to reinforce him with General Heavy's brigade. General Heavy's men would secure Finschhafen and then perform an offensive against Sio. On October 1st General Blamey decided the time had come to give Herring a rest, he appointed Lt General Leslie Morseheads 2nd corps to take over the New Guinea offensives. On October 7th, Morshead arrived at Dobodura, Herring departed for Port Moresby and then Australia, he would never return to the front lines. It was supposed to be General Iven Mackay that would relieve Herring, but he ran into squabbles with General douglas macarthur over reinforcements for Finschhafen. The junior officers felt Mackay should have forced the issue and enlisted Blamey for help, but ultimately both were set aside for Lt General Sir Leslie Morshead. Prior, Mackay had convinced Blamey, that Herring was becoming increasingly difficult to work with as a result of stress and fatigue which led to Herrings relief. Blamey maintained his faith in Herring who would retain command of the 1st corps on the Atherton Tableland, where he could train his men in amphibious warfare for the next operation, but Herring's period of active service was over. Herring had given able service in a high appointment through a year of fierce campaigning, he quite simply could use the rest. Herring assumed he would come back to relieve Morshead, but in February of 1944 he would be appointed Chief justice of the supreme court of Victoria instead. Back over at the front, the Australian commanders decided it was necessary to capture the Tami islands. The 2/32nd battalion departed Lae on October 2nd arriving off Wonam island. Major Mollard took command of the battalion and received another company called the “Denness Force” consisting of a rader detachment, pioneers, mortars, signals and a section of 6 .50 caliber machine guns, 2 LCMS and 14 LCV's from the 52nd EBSR. When the men landed on Wonam island, they were greeted by 4 friendly natives waving their arms. An interpreter spoke to the natives who told him there were no Japanese on the islands. Then the natives took a few of the men with some paddling canoes around Kalal and Wonam islands showing them no Japanese. The natives were then rounded up, 74 in all and asked to help establish a radar station on Kalal. The natives had very little food because of the terror of bombers and strafers in the area, they had actually been living in some caves and dug out coral instead of their huts. Apparently they were treated very well and helped the work effort. It's not said that often, but native populations made a huge difference in the pacific war. You keep hearing me say “native carriers” and such, war was literally thrust onto these people, most of whom were just going about their peaceful lives. The Japanese often showed brutality, its not as if it was 100%, but statistically the Americans or Australians in the Pacific were much more known to be favored by the natives, particularly in New Guinea.  Now the following day, the 2/17th departed Kolem on a extremely difficult route ironically named Easy Street, haha thinking of Negan from walking dead. Easy street went towards Kiasawa and then Kumawa. David Dexter described it as  "It was so steep and muddy that, on one occasion, two tractors were attached to one jeep but all were bogged." The Australians were surprised to see no enemy attacks against Jivevaneng at this time. The 2/43rd attempted an attack at 5:45 pm led by Lt Combe's company. The Australians tried desperately to attack well-dug in enemy positions along a route the enemy knew better than them. Soon the company became pinned down and casualties were mounting. Combe was wounded when his Owen was shot out of his hand, he assessed the situation, 17 casualties with 6 deaths, so he ordered the men to pull back. The 2/43rd by this point had a total of 47 casualties, with 14 deaths and 5 missing. The 2/43rd had failed to break again, thus the decision was made to have their forces evacuated.   To the north, the 2nd battalion, 80th regiment had burst into the scene, advancing through Wareo and Gurika. Fearing the Japanese threat to Scarlet Beach, the 2/3rd pioneers and 2/2nd machine gun companies were sent to contain the threat. By this time the 2/17th battalion had just reached Easy Street junction. Windeyer wanted them to hit Kumawa as it seemed one of the most likely places the Japanese would have retreated to from Finschhafen. However he also knew the new threat required additional forces so he divided the 2/17th into two groups. Two companies led by Major Pike and Captain Sheldon detached and formed a separate HQ under Major Maclarn to stop the Japanese from attacking Scarlet Beach, while Colonel Simpson led the remainder to Kumawa. On October 4th, suddenly the enemy eased up on both fronts. The surrounded company of the 2/43rd took the opportunity to break out to the east. Patrols began reporting that the Japanese had also withdrawn, so the bulk of the 2/43rd gradually moved to reoccupy Jivevaneng.  Meanwhile Maclarn's 2/17th detachment attempted their first attack against the enemy. Maclarn sent two platoons north of the Song River who quickly found themselves in a firefight with the enemy. They were forced to withdraw, then at 11:30am an LCV came over the Song drawing fire from the Japanese, allowing Maclarn to pinpoint exactly where the enemy was. At 2:15 Maclarn sent a platoon to make contact with the Japanese again, followed up at 5pm with Pike's company. The Japanese were hit with an artillery bombardment as Pike's company single file advanced to an assembly position around North Hill. The next day North Hill's area was seized and just as the Australians had managed to encircle the enemy's position, scouts reported they had abandoned it. It seemed to the Australians that the Japanese had withdrawn into the mountains again. In truth General Yamada was preparing a counterattack. As for General Katagiri by late September he had ordered his 2nd battalion, 79th regiment to advance through a native inland path avoiding the coastal roads over some western hills that led to Sattelberg. The battalion arrived at Boringboneng by October 7th, while the rest of the division got to Sattelberg by October 11th. With the reinforcements on hand, Katagiri planned a major counterattack aimed at Arndt point, due for mid October.    Meanwhile on October 5th, the 2/17th successfully seized Kumawa after fighting a small engagement against an enemy post in the village. The 2/15th were quickly directed to relieve them at Kumawa, as the 2/17th began to see continuous counterattacks. Simpsons 2/17th were being hit from northeast, west and south. His position was too thin leading to a large danger of encirclement. The Japanese performed numerous infiltrating attacks, trying to break his lines of communications and to add to Simpsons misery, the supply of ammunition and rations being carried by natives along a track were being delayed heavily by torrential rain. The native carriers were likewise in danger of enemy fire, it seemed evident the Japanese were quite alarmed at losing Kumawa.   On October the 6th, Yamada's 3rd battalion, 80th regiment successfully severed the communications between the company and her HQ by taking a position on a track between them. For 3 hours the Japanese made several assaults on Kumawa, until 1pm when the track was reopened and a telephone line was quickly relaid. The Japanese continued their harassment, but then the 2/15th arrived turned the tide against them. The men were low on supplies as the heavy rain made it impossible for jeeps to advance up the track to Kamawa. Since the 5th of october the 2/17th had been eating meager amounts, by the 8th they had nothing left. Windeyer felt because of the lack of supplies he had to halt the advance of the 2/17th and 2/15th.  The 2/17th Battalion diarist, describing the defense of Kumawa, wrote: "The enemy caused us no trouble… but our stomachs did." Colonel Grace likewise turned down an offer by Windeyer to arrange an air drop because he believed that the Japanese did not yet know of his men's presence in Kumawa. This would lose him the chance of intercepting any belated parties moving towards Sattelberg along the track from Tirimoro.    On October 9th, Maclarn decided to capture a vital feature in front of Jiveveneng known as the “knoll”, to improve his tactical position, I guess they just ran out of names or something.  Maclarn opened up the attack with artillery, as Sheldon's company performing an encirclement maneuver led by Papuan scouts to sneak platoons 10 yards from the Japanese positions. Suddenly at 11:10am the forward platoons unleashed fire on the Japanese and charged their outposts. As the men charged the Knoll itself, only a single Japanese would be seen as countless had fled, leaving 9 dead. By 1pm Sheldon's company were digging in on the knoll where they had found 60 Japanese foxholes. The Japanese launched a counter attack, began with a bugle call and the usual screams as the charged within 5 yards of the Australians new defensive positions. Grenades were rolled down the knoll and automatic fire kept them at bay until the Japanese finally backed off. At 6:45 the Japanese attempted a second counter attack, this time as a full company, but they were likewise repulsed. The next day saw more Japanese counter attacks against the Knoll, the defending Australians reported hearing them scream “ya”, to which they screamed it back at them. Apparently they also screamed Ho, so the Australians screamed Ho back. The Japanese were also sending many patrols to search for viable approaches for the upcoming counteroffensive while they awaited reinforcements and supplies. The Australians noted the considerable enemy movement, believing a large number of Japanese reinforcements were due to arrive from the north.    Back over at Lae, General Wootten's HQ and the 24th brigade had finally begun their departure for Finschhafen. When Wootten landed, he decided to reorganize his forces to gain control of the approaches to Wareo and Sattelberg, hoping to also provide an opening to launch an offensive against Sio. He divided the Finschhafen area into 3 sectors of responsibility. The 24th brigade would defend the Scarlet beach area; the 20th brigade would perform an offensive against Sattelberg and the 22nd battalion would defend the Dreger Harbor area. On October 11th, the 2/17th finally re-secured Jivevaneng and on the 12th, Wootten sent Captain Gore with C Company of the Papuan battalion to perform a large scale deep patrol looking into the Wareo-Sattelberg-Mararuo area. On the 13th, the 2/15th hit back at the Japanese west of Kumawa. At 9am they began a fire fight about 150 yards apart using machine guns mostly. Casualties were high for both sides, but Sergeant Else kept the forward platoons advancing, refusing to allow his forces t obe pinned down. The Japanese had 39 deaths before they began fleeing, the Australians suffered 5 deaths and 30 casualties. For the next two days things seemed to be relatively quiet, but it was to be the calm before the storm, as Katagiri earmarked October 16th for his counteroffensive. Wootten knew something was on its way and was greatly relieved to see the arrival of the 2/28th and 2/32nd battalions on October 15th. However he was also quite bitter about the lack of cooperation between the Australians and Americans which he believed prevented them from quickly reinforcing Finschhafen. By the 15th, Wootten had 2/rd of his division in the area and a signal from Morshead informed him that General HQ had ordered the 26th brigade from Lae to Finschhafen at 30 hours notice. It was heartening news, but it also contrasted strongly with the protracted negotiations allowing for the 2/43rd to go to Scarlet Beach by the end of September. It was also indicative of the gravity of the situation; various commanders had learnt brutal lessons. The Japanese were given a chance to seize the initiative. General Mackay would write to Blamey on October the 20th  “Through not being able to reinforce quickly the enemy has been given time to recover and we have not been able to exploit our original success. Through the piecemeal arrival of reinforcements the momentum of the attack has not been maintained. As was proved in the Lae operations the provision of adequate forces at the right place and time is both the quickest and most economical course.” Windeyer received orders to coordinate the defense of the Langemak bay and "hold important ground at all costs". He was to perform a defense in depth, maintain a mobile reserve, organize coastwatching stations and beach defenses. Wootten went to work ordered forces to put up positions on track junctions in the Bonga area, North Hill, all of the high ground going two miles west of Scarlet Beach through Jivevaneng, Kumawa, Tirimoro, Butaweng, Logaweng and for the 532nd EBSR base at Dreger Harbour. The allies were preparing for a major storm. Over at the Finisterres, on October 11th, General Morshead had just flown in for the first time to Dumpu where he told Vasey that because of “administrative limitation” there could be no further advance into the mountains for the time being. The day morning, Colonel Bishop's 2/27th over at Trevors ridge were hit by Japanese mountain guns. At 10:45 the 2nd battalion, 78th regiment launched an assault against their position. The attack was supported by 5 Woodpeckers, those are being the Japanese type 92 heavy machine gun, alongside two mountain guns, mortars and light machine guns. Trevor's ridge and Johns knoll got the full bombardment treatment, then the Japanese charged tossing grenades with fixed bayonets overrunning the Australian positions on the lower early slope. However this lower slope could be hit hard from the crest above, so the Japanese soon found themselves in a mayhem of fire and were dislodged quickly. After the vicious attack, Bishop sent reinforcements to John's Knoll allowing the lost positions to be regained. 4 more attacks would be launched during the early afternoon at a great cost to the Japanese. Bishops men repulsed them all, but he began to worry about his ammunition situation. In the forward areas, he had only two Vickers guns and a 3 inch mortar. The Vickers were being used to counter the Japanese heavy machine gun fire, and the mortar only had 18 bombs left, placed up on Johns knoll. When the enemy had reached within 20 yards of the Australians positions during the first assault, Sergeant Eddy rushed forward to direct 12 mortar bombs upon the enemy causing absolute havoc, winning the day. With ammunition running low and no sign of an supply train coming, Bishop wondered if the next attack would beat them off their high ground. Bishops men went to work searching the dead Japanese. Teams were collecting ammunition from the dead enemy, from the HQ and from units of Trevor's ridge, rushing it all to Johns knoll. The positions on John's knoll was obviously dangerous and the men all knew they likely would have to pull out if no supply train came. To relieve the pressure on John's Knoll, Bishop sent two platoons to launch a counter attack against the enemys right and left flanks. Lt Paine's platoon took the right and Lt Trenerry the left. Paines men were climbing 20 yards up a razor back when the saw the enemy and began firing. Paine recalled "things got a bit sticky so we withdrew down the hill a little then made our way back to the end of the razor-back'. Pains men withdrew a bit, but continued to harass the enemy, who greeted them by rolling grenades down the razorback. To the left, Trennerys men cautiously moved around the rear of the Japanese forward troops attacking Johns Knoll and launched a 16 grenade attack killing many. In the confusion and terror the Japanese dispersed running straight into Australian gunfire. With just 5 men Trenerry had cleared a track to Johns koll while 5 other of his men cleared another track in the opposite direction. Trenerry would report   "Both groups clearing the track ran backwards and forwards shooting at opportune targets,". Private Blacker had killed 5 Japanese shooting his Bren from the hip; Private May killed 4 Japanese before taking a hit himself and most of the men on average killed two Japanese each. Trennerry's men would come back to Johns knoll estimating they had killed 24 Japanese with small arms and a bunch with grenades.   During the late afternoon, a company of the 2/27th also advanced northeast of John's Knolls who could hear the platoon counter attacks. At 5:30 upon hearing heavy fire from some high ground east of Johns knoll they launched an attack and quickly overran a woodpecker position. Lt Cook leading the company would write “I met Mac and he gave me all he knew so I pushed forward to contact the enemy. I handed 5 Platoon over to Sergeant Underwood, commonly known as "Underpants". The laps were expecting us for they opened up with their Woodpecker and did they whistle but the boys kept pushing on. I sent Sergeant Yandell round on the right flank while a section from B Company and Corporal Fitzgerald's went around on the left; well, Lum's [Yandell's] section on the right did a wonderful job and made it possible to wipe out the Woodpecker. The boys must have killed 20 or more Japs on the first knoll and by the way they bawled you would think they were killing a hundred of them. We continued on along the ridge for another 100 yards when 3 LMGs opened up on us and inflicted our first casualties, 2 killed, 4 wounded. One of the killed was Dean who had done a fine job killing several Japs while firing his Bren from the hip as he advanced. At about this time I found [a young soldier] of B Company alongside me so asked him what would win the Goodwood whereupon he told me not to be so bloody silly, it was no time to talk about races. Well, we had to shift these gunners so Lum kept moving his section forward on the right flank and two of the gunners got out while the other covered them. Then Lum volunteered to go over the top after the remaining one himself so I slipped up behind him to give him covering fire, but as Lum went over the top the Japs cleared off into the kunai”. By nightfall the enemy attacks ceased, the allies had not yielded an inch of ground.   A supply train came at midnight to the great relief of the defenders. Hunkering down the way he did, Bishop had won a notable battle. The 2/27th lost 7 men dead and 28 wounded, but estimated they had killed 190 Japanese. More importantly the Australians refused to be pushed from their vantage points. The Japanese would continue their attacks on Trevor's ridge with their Woodpecker from a new position just above the plateau across the Faria. Thus the defenders hard work was not over, Brigadier Dougherty decided to relieve the exhausted 2/27th with the 2/16th. After the fierce fight at John's Knoll, the Japanese had pulled back to the Shaggy ridge line, that ran in front of the Kankirei saddle. It was here General Nakai was determined to make his last stand. Additionally, back on October the 9th, the first echelon of Admiral Mori's forces had at last reached Kiari. Men who performed the march recalled  “the track deteriorated and was ‘only passable on bare feet without any heavy packs' and some simple scaffolding had been set up by the engineers to help the troops pass. The cold increased as the group climbed higher and the ‘Precipitous cliffs continued, one after another.' More men began to die from the cold and from losing their footing. This was at the head of the Sanem River valley where there was a sheer drop on one side of the track and a sheer rock face about 90 meters high on the other. The final climb to the summit was made over a muddy one-man track where the line came to a stop and the men sat with their legs dangling over the edge of the track”. The men took 4 days of rest before they would march onwards for Sio.   For 10 days, General Nakano's forces continued their retreat to Kiari. Local natives had been enlisted to help carry the food and medical supplies that landed at Kairi up to the troops moving down the coast. Originally 20 landing craft were supposed to help move the food from Madang, but they were being used for troops transport following the Australian landing at Finschhafen. The Japanese began setting up a series of food caches in villages seeing tonnes of rice carried and placed in key positions. The 4th echelon reached Kiari on October 18th, 33 days after they had departed Lae. From the original 6600 IJA and 2050 IJN forces that left Lae, a total of 6544 men, 5001 IJA and 1543 IJN had survived the retreat across the Saruwaged range, arriving safely to the coast. It was clear, General Blamey's earlier assessment that “a few of the enemy remnants will escape the hardship of the mountain tracks” was very wrong. Now thats all we have for Green hell today, for we are going to be jumping back over to the CBI theater next.   Now there had been considerable developments in the global war for the allies. The Japanese were gradually being pushed back in the southwest pacific; The Kingdom of Italy signed the armistice of Cassibile, as allied forces were occupying Sicily soon to hit Italy proper and Germany was about to lose Ukraine. The tide had distinctly turned against the Axis. In the China theater, the 7th war area of General Sun Lianzhong had dispersed into the fertile plains of Hunan province. The commander of the China expeditionary army, General Hta Shunroku deemed it necessary to perform a crushing blow against him. He ordered General Yokoyama to advance upon the Changde area, where Sun had his HQ.Yokoyama concentrated his 5 divisions, the 39th, 58th, 3rd, 116th and 68th divisions of the 11th army, along the Yangtze river area between Yichang and Yueyang by late October. Once his forces had concentrated enough on the left bank of the Yangtze, Yokoyama planned out an offensive set to launch on November 2nd. Defending the Changde area was  the 6th war zones 10th, 26th, 29th, 33rd army groups as well as some riverine units and two other corps, making a total of 14 corps in all. It was going to be a brutal offensive aimed not at actually capturing the city of Chande, but rather tying up the NRA to reduce its combat ability in the immediate region and to thwart it from reinforcing the Burma theater.   Over in Indie the horrible Bengal famine of 1943 had kicked off. Back in March of 1942, after the Japanese began their occupation of Rangoon, a major consequence was the severing of routine exports, such as Burmese rice to India and Ceylon. In June the Bengal government established price controls for rice and on July 1st fixed prices were at a level considerably lower than the prevailing market price. The fixed low prices thus made sellers reluctant to sell leading to stocks disappearing, getting stored or being sold on the black market. In mid October, south-west Bengal was hit by a series of natural disasters that destabilized the price more, causing another rushed scramble for rice, boosting the Calcutta black market. On March 11th, the provincial government rescinded its price controls, resulting in dramatic rises in the price of rice, due partly to speculations. This caused a massive period of inflation between March and May of 1943. May saw the first reports of death by starvation in Bengal. The government tried to re-establish public confidence by insisting that the crisis was all being caused by speculation and hoarding, but their propaganda failed to dispel the public's belief there was in fact a shortage of rice. The Bengal government never formally declared a state of famine, even though the “Famine Code” would have mandated a sizable increase in aid. The unrest gave fuel to the Free India Movement, led by Subhas Chandra Bose and many troops would have to be diverted from Burma to help maintain the order. Bose made his famous proclamation “give me blood! I will give you freedom!” as he assumed leadership over the reformed INA on July 4th of 1943. The new INA 1st division under Major General Mohammed Zaman Kiani had drawn many Indian POW's who had previously joined Mohan Singh's first INA. They also drew POW's who had not joined in 1942. Their new force consisted of the 2nd Guerrilla regiment known as “the Gandhi brigade” which consisted of two battalions under Colonel Inayat Kiani; the 3rd Guerrilla regiment known as “the Azad brigade” consisting of three battalions under Colonel Gulzara Singh and the 4th Guerrillas known as the “Nehru Brigade” lead by Lt Colonel Gurubaksh Singh Dhillon. The 1st Guerrilla regiment “Subhas brigade” was led by Colonel Shah Nawaz Khan and was an independent unit consisting of 3 infantry battalions. Special operations group “Bahadur group” were operating behind enemy lines. There was also a separate all female unit created under Captain Lakshmi Swaminathan. This unit was intended to have combat commitments. They were named Rani of Jhansi regiment after the legendary rebel Queen Lakshmibai of the 1857 rebellion. Their member swerve drawn from female civilian populations from Malaya and Burma.   The reformed INA were reinvigorated and causing a lot of mayhem. The Indian government responded with a scorched earth policy to deny foodstuffs to the Japanese and Free Indian army who might try to invade India. They established a Foodstuffs scheme to manage the distribution of good, ensuring that those in high priority roles such as civil servants, police and the armed forces received top priority. A second “boat denial policy” was also implemented. Under this policy the army confiscated approximately 45,000 rural boats, severely disrupting riverbourne movement of labor, supplies and food. This cost the livelihoods of boatmen and fishermen.  Leonard G. Pinnell, a British civil servant who headed the Bengal government's Department of Civil Supplies, told the Famine Commission that the policy "completely broke the economy of the fishing class". Transport was generally unavailable to carry seed and equipment to distant fields or rice to the market hubs. Artisans and other groups who relied on boat transport to carry goods to market were offered no recompense; neither were rice growers nor the network of migratory laborers. The large-scale removal or destruction of rural boats caused a near-complete breakdown of the existing transport and administration infrastructure and market system for movement of rice paddy. No steps were taken to provide for the maintenance or repair of the confiscated boats, and many fishermen were unable to return to their trade. The Army took no steps to distribute food rations to make up for the interruption of supplies.   Meanwhile military build ups cause massive displacement of Bengalis from their homes and farmlands which were used to construct airstrips and camps. Nearly the entire output of India's cloth, leather, silk and wool industries were sold off to the military, leaving the rural population to suffer through a “cloth famine”.  President of the Ramakrishna Mission in Bombay July 1943 would report  "The robbing of graveyards for clothes, disrobing of men and women in out of way places for clothes ... and minor riotings here and there have been reported. Stray news has also come that women have committed suicide for want of cloth ... Thousands of men and women ... cannot go out to attend their usual work outside for want of a piece of cloth to wrap round their loins"   The Bengali population suffered tremendously. With the arrival of 500,000 or more Burmese refugees, bringing hungry mouths, and diseases like dysentery, malaria, smallpox, cholera, needing food, clothes, medical aid and other resources, this stressed Bengali past its max. Despite all of this, Bengal continued to export rice to Ceylon for months, even after the famine was apparent. To make matters worse, local rice crops were becoming infected with brown spot disease and on October 16th, Bengal was hit by a massive cyclone. This resulted in the deaths of 14,500 and 190,000 cattle. The cyclone unleashed 3 Tsunami's which overwhelmed the sea walls and flooded 450 square miles adding more misery to 2.5 million people.  Bose went to work exploiting the crisis, backed enthusiastically by the Japanese to established the Azad Hind Provisional Government of Free India at Singapore in October. The first INA was roughly 40,000 troops strong, the reformed 2nd INA would begin with 12,000 troops, and as a result of Boses dynamic appeal would peak to around 100,000 volunteers and combatants at around 50,000. Bose would say "Local civilians joined the INA, doubling its strength. They included barristers, traders and plantation workers, as well as Khudabadi Sindhi Swarankars who were working as shop keepers; many had no military experience." It is also estimated, 20,000 Malayan Indians and another 20,000 ex-Indian army member volunteered for the INA. In the end, an estimated 2.1-3.8 Bengalis died out of a population of 60.2 million. They died of starvation, malaria and diseases brought on from malnutrition, population displacement and lack of health care. In the man-made famines aftermath, millions would be left impoverished and the social fabric had been torn to shreds. Nearly 1.6 million families disintegrated, men sold their farms and left home to work or join the Indian army. Women and children became homeless, traveling to larger cities in search of relief. It was a vicious cycle of death that would help bolster the Indian independence movement. I would like to take this time to remind you all that this podcast is only made possible through the efforts of Kings and Generals over at Youtube. Please go subscribe to Kings and Generals over at Youtube and to continue helping us produce this content please check out www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals. If you are still hungry after that, give my personal channel a look over at The Pacific War Channel at Youtube, it would mean a lot to me. The battle for Sattelberg was about to begin and so was the battle for Changde. Within India a horrible man made famine led to tremendous devastation and in turn this helped bolster Subhas Chandra Bose's Indian National Army. Japan was given a rare chance to obtain a powerful ally.  

With the help of the Bhaduri Brothers, the Immortal Eleven ascend the ranks—all the way to the 1905 Gladstone Cup. Bengalis from all over travel to Chinsurah in the hopes of witnessing a victory against the British neatly packaged into a football tournament.

From Ganja Park in Kolkata to lock-ups in 13 countries, he has travelled the world and lived through mad times. Devangshu Datta joins Amit Varma in episode 348 of The Seen and the Unseen to discuss Bengalis who make bombs, Gujaratis who make fetish costumes, his river pirate ancestors and how Only Fans has disrupted Pornhub. (FOR FULL LINKED SHOW NOTES, GO TO SEENUNSEEN.IN.) Also check out: 1. Devangshu Datta on Twitter and Business Standard. 2. Previous (miniature) episodes of The Seen and the Unseen with Devangshu Datta: 1, 2, 3. 3. The Life and Times of Nilanjana Roy — Episode 284 of The Seen and the Unseen. 4. Gita Press and the Making of Hindu India — Akshaya Mukul. 5. The Gita Press and Hindu Nationalism — Episode 139 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Akshaya Mukul). 6. Private Truths, Public Lies — Timur Kuran. 7. Godwin's Law. 8. The End of History? — Francis Fukuyama's essay. 9. The End of History and the Last Man — Francis Fukuyama's book. 10. Fixing Indian Education — Episode 185 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Karthik Muralidharan). 11. Our Unlucky Children (2008) — Amit Varma. 12. Aakash Singh Rathore, the Ironman Philosopher — Episode 340 of The Seen and the Unseen. 13. The Bridge: The Life and Rise of Barack Obama -- David Remnick. 14. VP Menon: The Unsung Architect of Modern India — Narayani Basu. 15. India's Greatest Civil Servant — Episode 167 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Narayani Basu, on VP Menon). 16. 'How big is your Madhya Pradesh?' -- Mamata Banerjee asks a party worker to lose weight. 17. Patriots, Poets and Prisoners: Selections from Ramananda Chatterjee's The Modern Review, 1907-1947 -- Edited by Anikendra Sen, Devangshu Datta and Nilanjana S Roy. 18. The State of Indian Sport — Episode 238 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Joy Bhattacharjya & Nandan Kamath). 19. Early Indians -- Tony Joseph. 20. Early Indians — Episode 112 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Tony Joseph). 21. All Quiet on the Western Front -- Erich Maria Remarque. 22. The Dosadi Experiment (featuring Jorj X. McKie) -- Frank Herbert. 23. A Deep Dive Into Ukraine vs Russia -- Episode 335 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ajay Shah). 24. Lost Victories -- Erich von Manstein. 25. Basic Chess Endings -- Reuben Fine. 26. The Tamilian Gentleman Who Took on the World — Amit Varma. 27. The New World Upon Us -- Amit Varma on Alpha Zero. 28. Alpha Zero -- Episode 51 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Devangshu Datta). 29. Google's AlphaZero Destroys Stockfish In 100-Game Match — Mike Klein (with Peter Heine Nielson's quote on a superior species playing chess). 30. Skynet (Terminator). 31. Neuromancer -- William Gibson. 32. Snow Crash --  Neal Stephenson. 33. Why Children Labour (2007) — Amit Varma. 34. The Poetic Feminism of Paromita Vohra — Episode 339 of The Seen and the Unseen. 35. Satisfaction: The Art of the Female Orgasm -- Kim Cattrall and Mark Levinson. 36. Deep Throat and The Devil in Miss Jones. 37. The Matunga Racket (2007) -- Amit Varma. 38. Colleen Hoover on Amazon, Instagram, Wikipedia and her own website. 39. The Business of Books — Episode 150 of The Seen and the Unseen (w VK Karthika). 40. New in Chess. 41. Amartya Ghosh on Spotify. 42. The Universe of Chuck Gopal — Episode 258 of The Seen and the Unseen. 43. 'Wet Streets Cause Rain' -- Michael Crichton explains Gell-Mann Amnesia. 44. How to generate black money in India (2013) -- TEDx Talk by Devangshu Datta. 45. Poker and Stock Markets — Episode 47 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Mohit Satyanand). 46. Once Upon a Prime -- Sarah Hart. 47. Herman Melville and Edgar Allan Poe on Amazon. 48. Professor Moriarty. 49. The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time -- Mark Haddon. 50. A Gentleman in Moscow -- Amor Towles. 51. NK Jemisin and Ursula K Le Guin on Amazon. 52. The Battle for Spain: The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939 -- Antony Beevor. 53. The Spanish Civil War (playlist with all six parts of the docu-series). 54. The Sandman on Netflix. 55. The Sandman -- Neil Gaiman. 56. The Life and Games of Mikhail Tal -- Mikhail Tal. 57. Dune and Blade Runner 2049 -- Denis Villeneuve. 58. India's War: The Making of Modern South Asia -- Srinath Raghavan. 59. Episodes of The Seen and the Unseen with Srinath Raghavan: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Amit Varma and Ajay Shah have launched a new video podcast. Check out Everything is Everything on YouTube. Check out Amit's online course, The Art of Clear Writing. And subscribe to The India Uncut Newsletter. It's free! Episode art: ‘Chess Board' by Simahina.

Two adult and one teenage man friends gather around to run Icanfixhim.exe Discord server - https://discord.gg/X94h4XWKMQ Timestamps 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:25 Kharap laglle ghumani 00:06:45 Tomi university'te ki korba 00:34:15 Rishat's cure for cancer 00:44:25 Bengalis and their game controllers 00:47:15 Valorant players would make good surgeons 00:49:30 Bandi'ra jei jinish bhalo bhabe lukai 00:52:55 Things we hate corner 00:59:20 Outro Things mentioned Inazuma Eleven (Anime) - https://myanimelist.net/anime/5231/Inazuma_Eleven Prerona (YouTube channel) - https://youtube.com/@preron_a?si=HsKTX1_q8NWhc7TL Listening to the show on iTunes/Spotify/Google Podcasts/YouTube really helps the podcast gain exposure iTunes - http://bit.ly/DUHonApplePodcasts Spotify - http://bit.ly/DUHonSpotify Google Podcasts - http://bit.ly/DUHonGooglePodcasts Saavn - https://bit.ly/DUHonSaavn YouTube - http://bit.ly/DUHonYouTube 2nd channel - http://bit.ly/DUHBoysOnYouTube Support the podcast through Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/duhabp or bKash or Nagad +8801943914563 DUH on social medias: Facebook page - https://bit.ly/DUHonFacebook Instagram - https://bit.ly/DUHonInstagram Twitter - https://bit.ly/DUHonTwitter TikTok - http://bit.ly/DUHonTikTok Apurbo YouTube - http://bit.ly/ApurbosYouTube Instagram - http://bit.ly/ApurbosInstagram Twitter - http://bit.ly/ApurbosTwitter MyAnimeList - https://myanimelist.net/profile/ApurboTheA1 Grouvee - https://www.grouvee.com/user/105735-ApurboTheA1/ Rishat YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFwHfBWsOZEW3cKFh_BWZaw YouTube - https://youtube.com/channel/UCJ2S-k0MBh3Pn5Jhdq_s1OA Ishmum Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCssbWLyz9JYIbGGGxxknnOg Instagram - https://instagram.com/kuddus.mia.42069?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= Twitter - https://twitter.com/Beeg_Nontu MyAnimeList - https://myanimelist.net/profile/BeegNontu Grouvee - https://www.grouvee.com/user/123182-Dipjolfan42069/ Bangladesh, Bangladeshi, Bangladeshi podcasts, Podcasts in Bangladesh, Bangla podcast, Bengali podcast, Podcast Bangla, Podcast, Bengal podcast, What is podcast Bangla, DUHABP, Ashrafuzzaman Apurbo, eatabrick, Some retard, duhabp #DUHABP #BengaliPodcast #BangladeshiPodcast #BanglaPodcast --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/duhabp/message

It's 1857. British soldiers play football in the barracks of Bengal, but Bengalis—with their “delicate limbs”—aren't welcome to play ball. How could India come to be known as “the Brazil of Asia”? In this episode, we meet the Immortal Eleven.

"The issues of citizenship and identity become very mixed up in the case of cross border communities like Bengalis and Nepalis. And that is something one is seeing now happening with Kukis as well in Manipur, where there is widespread suspicion that a lot of them have come from Myanmar" - Samrat Choudhury, author, 'Northeast India; A Political History' talks to Manjula Narayan about the complex cultural, linguistic, religious and political histories of each of the states of northeast India, how the region became a part of India as a result of the Anglo-Burmese wars, the genesis of the idea of India itself, the ignored history of slavery in the subcontinent, and the need to avoid airbrushing the past.

We hanging with Lebanese-American comic Emil Wakim, a nationaly touring killer with an excellent Comedy Central special out now! Bonus content on patreon--along with archived episodes, access to our discord server, and more!

Full Episode on Patreon!

Morrison gives us insight into Cardinals head coaching candidates Lou Anarumo and Brian Callahan.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Morrison gives us insight into Cardinals head coaching candidates Lou Anarumo and Brian Callahan.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's Usama Siddiquee (America's Got Talent, HBO, Netflix, FX) week! The hilarious, amazing, fabulous Bengali American comedian & actor joins Lucie on the pod this week to talk why Bengalis are the pettiest badasses in the world, growing up in Texas, the first time he didn't feel ugly, his mother's dreams of being a professional jump roper,  how his Dad became an unexpected star and worked with Mother Theresa, if Mama's Junction is a real place and so much more! Plus we show each other pictures of our parents and wonder if Liam Niesson is hot.  Follow Usama @usamastandsup & follow the podcast @immigrantjampodcast! Send us an email with questions, comments, guest ideas or tell us whether or not you think Liam Niesson is hot immigrantjam@gmail.com  Please check out the Patreon to support & help us make more episode www.patreon.com/luciepohl We love you! Thank you for listening! 

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. This Thursday APEX Express proudly presents “South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement.” This episode highlights Sandhya Jha, a pastor, founder and former Executive Director of the Oakland Peace Center, and racial, housing, and labor justice activist. In the first half of the episode, we discuss Sandhya's life, their path into organizing, and what they're up to now. The second half is dedicated to their recent project with the South Asian American Digital Archive's Archival Creators Fellowship Program. This episode was interviewed, produced, and edited by Swati Rayasam Follow @Sandhya Jha on Facebook and check out Sandhya's website https://sandhyajha.com/    APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Listen to the episode live on KPFA 94.1 in San Francisco, 89.3 in Berkeley, and online at KPFA.org.  References throughout the Show and Links: Without Fear Consulting Interfaith Alliance Oakland Peace Center Book – Blueprint for a Revolution Book – The Selected Writings of Eqbal Ahmad Podcast – Bending Toward Justice: Avatar the Last Airbender for the Global Majority The Alliance of South Asians Taking Action – ASATA Bay Area Solidarity Summer South Asian American Digital Archive Archival Creators Fellowship Program Sandhya Jha's project, you can listen to all of the oral histories here. Solidarity Forever Online Exhibit Arab Resource and Organizing Center Block the Boat No Tech for Apartheid  University of California Labor Center Equality Labs California Trade Justice Coalition NAFCON – National Alliance for Filipino Concerns Filipino Community Center Madhvi Trivedi Patak Transcript: South Asians and Labor Justice  [00:00:00]  [00:00:00] Swati Rayasam: Good evening everyone and Happy Thursday, my name is Swati Rayasam. While I'm usually in the background of APEX Express editing, this week I'm honored to bring you a piece from a dear friend of mine Sandhya Jha. We explore Sandhya's background as a mixed race kid, a housing, labor, and racial justice organizer, and a faith leader.  [00:00:50] Swati Rayasam: And then we dive into an amazing project, Sandhya did for the South Asian American Digital Archive's Archival Creators Fellowship program. Stay locked in.[00:01:00]  [00:01:00] Swati Rayasam: I'm really excited actually today to talk to Sandhya Jha, who is a really close friend of mine. Hi Sandhya. Hi there. Sandhya is, a Pastor is a consultant and has been working on this really amazing project with the South Asian American Digital Archive that will get into later in the episode. But yeah, Sandhya I'm just really excited to learn more about you and to hear more of your story and, let's just dive in. [00:01:26] Swati Rayasam: Absolutely.  [00:01:27] Swati Rayasam: We should first talk a little bit about how we know each other, you have this long organizing background. I've been in the Bay Area for the past seven years and I would be totally lying if I said I have not historically been, or I'm not even currently an active fangirl of yours. You are literally a pastor. You are a movement worker, how did you get involved in organizing? [00:01:53] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. So I am the product of my parents who were generous, compassionate [00:02:00] people who thought about the world beyond themselves, but were never involved in organizing or activism or anything like that. I think for anybody who comes from immigrant backgrounds, it's hard to tell our stories without naming who we come from. Right. And so my father was Sunil Kumar Jha from the village of Tildanga in West Bengal. My mother, who is still alive is Jeanette Campbell Jha. She is from Glasgow. So I come from a mixed religion and mixed race home. My parents chose not to name me Sandhya Campbell Jha not to give me that kind of grounding, but I was called Sandhya Rani Jha, which is a lot to live up to, well, yes, Rani does mean Queen. But it was actually handed down to me, part of the reason they wanted that middle name was it was my aunt's name, Durga Rani Upadhyay and she was the one who really [00:03:00] brokered my mother's acceptance into the Indian family and I think that there was something about being accepted on the Indian side of the family and not for many, many years on the Scottish side. That caused my parents and particularly my mother to double down on making sure I knew who I came from and who I came from was my people in the village of Tildanga. [00:03:23] Sandhya Jha: I grew up in Akron, Ohio, so we immigrated to this country when I was a toddler, in the late 1970s, which was a complicated time for Asian immigrants to be in the Midwest because it was a time that the rust belt was rusting and there was a growing sense that we were the reason. But also I grew up alongside folks who were trying to figure out how to put food on the table. So I think that landscape shaped me in a lot of ways. And I also come from people who grew up in poor working communities. And[00:04:00] when I went off to college, there was an organizing campaign. The board of directors of the university had created a for-profit corporation with the exact same board.  [00:04:15] Swati Rayasam: Oh wow.  [00:04:16] Sandhya Jha: So that the universities could subcontract all of their catering, all of their custodial work to this… basically Shell corporation.  [00:04:28] Swati Rayasam: Are we telling on the university?  [00:04:29] Sandhya Jha: Mm, Yeah. Why not? It was Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, and I think that's relevant because the tension between Black communities next to Johns Hopkins Medical School and the school itself were very real because this was part of a very long history of exploiting community members. So the workers were organizing, and you know, I had read about activism, I cared about it. I paid as much attention as I could for a high school student. But when I got to college, this organizing [00:05:00] campaign was going, and the workers were really clear, Hey, college kids who are excited about this, we do have a role for you. It's to fill the crowd. It's to cheer us on. It's to when we ask you communicate to the university that our well-being matters to you because they will listen to you in different ways. But the campaign centered the workers and was really clear with us about what our role was because we were the folks with all the privilege by getting to be there, right? We had tons of privilege and it was a really good lesson for me. I am so grateful. The first organizing campaign I was a part of was a labor campaign that understood what it meant to center the people who were the most impacted by injustice and I think that shaped the rest of my career.  [00:05:46] Swati Rayasam: And that's so special too because I think for many people who come into organizing, and I will definitely cop to this myself, like coming up and organizing through high school and college level organizing. When you are a student, nobody ever [00:06:00] tells you that actually you are the least useful kind of organizer that exists. Right. You are in this incredibly enclaved community. Your oppressor, the university, all they have to do is wait for you to graduate institutional memory will not keep you. Yeah. Right. And I think that it is, it's this perfect storm of, you have actually sometimes cool ideas, sometimes very rudimentary ideas, but you also have this turnover issue and you have this sense of self import, which often comes with your teens, early twenties. Yep. As you're just figuring all of that out. So Yeah, self differentiation, right? It's a narcissistic phase in our development. .  [00:06:46] Swati Rayasam: It absolutely is and I think that's so important, and I can't imagine how my life would be shaped if I didn't have to spend a lot of time unlearning the self import and narcissism that I had gained through student [00:07:00] organizing. [00:07:00] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. No, I am really, really grateful for it.  [00:07:02] Sandhya Jha: My first job outta college was working for a member of Congress, which sounds super fancy and pretentious, but, a member of congress from Akron, Ohio. So put that all in perspective. His name, believe it or not, was Tom Sawyer. Oh, wow. What I loved about Tom was back in those days, he believed very strongly that 80% of legislation was nonpartisan and that was the part that he spent most of his time on. He would weigh in with his party, when they were dealing with that 20% pretty consistently. But he was more interested in the stuff that everybody could agree on and I remember for about 15 years after I worked for him, I looked back and found myself thinking that was so naive. How did he not understand where we were about to head with the divisions between the political parties? But at this point in my life, I realize the people I respect most in organizing work keep pointing out that the binary of [00:08:00] left and right actually doesn't serve us very well. One of my biggest heroes in the movement right now is the Reverend Dr. William Barber,  [00:08:07] Swati Rayasam: Hometown hero of mine. Yes.  [00:08:09] Sandhya Jha: Poor People's campaign from North Carolina. And he always talks about how it's not about right and left. It's about right and wrong. And it turns out that when we engage in organizing with the awareness that there are huge swaths of things that most of us are well served by, we can do better organizing. And that was actually how Tom was legislating. And at a certain point I realized that my deep passion was around racial justice, but the distinct experience I had in a multi religious household was an awareness of how religion was being used as a weapon. I had an obsession. Every paper in college I wrote was about the Christian coalition, this right wing, organizing body in the nineties. So a friend of mine [00:09:00] said, You know, there's an interfaith organization working against the Christian Coalition. And it was called the Interfaith Alliance. Her mom had been a superintendent in Washington state in eastern Washington and was a pretty conservative person by my standards. [00:09:18] Sandhya Jha: But, Dr. Chow believed in multiculturalism and believed in teaching evolution. And the Christian coalition had organized to push her out of her position as superintendent and the Interfaith Alliance of Washington State had supported her in that time. [00:09:38] Sandhya Jha: And so Liz said, you know, they've got a national chapter, a national office. And that's where I ended up, cutting my adult organizing teeth which was great because talk about learning lessons for our current moment where religion is being weaponized in ways that are anti-trans, that are anti-queer, that are anti-women, that [00:10:00] are anti reproductive rights, that are anti-immigrant and refugee. I am really grateful to have experienced the power of multi-faith organizing, around a lot of those same issues. So that was what I did in the early two thousands and then I went to seminary and public policy school, and then I ended up out here pastoring a congregation of 10 people in a building of 40,000 square feet. [00:10:29] Sandhya Jha: And long story short, that's how the Oakland Peace Center was born, was out of this dream of cultivating deeper collaboration among nonprofits who were dedicated to a shared cause. The Oakland Peace Center, which is a collective of 40 different nonprofits committed to dismantling the root causes of violence in our community. I was the founder of that organization and it was when I was pastoring First Christian Church of Oakland that I asked the handful of folks who were members of that church, what they wanted to [00:11:00] contribute to the community, and they said they wanted to contribute peace in the midst of violence. And for a dozen folks to have given birth to a space that in non pandemic years, saw over a hundred thousand people do things like the Lawyers for Black Lives Conference and to do Kingian non-violence training and to be a part of food and clothing distribution, to participate in all the very diverse ways that we can create peace is pretty impressive.  [00:11:30] Sandhya Jha: And a couple of years ago, I left the Oakland Peace Center because a colleague of mine said, Anybody can run a non-profit. We need you to do what you're actually good at, and what she meant by that was we need more people of color doing diversity, equity, and inclusion work that is actually grounded in power analysis. That isn't just how do we be nicer to each other in the workplace, but how do we recognize the ways that systems of white supremacy [00:12:00] unconsciously often shape the culture of our workplaces? And what do we do to dismantle that white supremacy culture so that we can be building nonprofits and institutions of higher education and faith organizations, and even corporations that are dedicated to our full liberation, our liberation, the lands liberation. [00:12:23] Swati Rayasam: I mean coming, especially from the place that you come in grassroots organizing and in faith based organizing, what is it actually to transition into this kind of consulting space around racial justice and really interface with a lot of people that I feel like as organizers, we don't really talk to? [00:12:42] Sandhya Jha: One of my favorite things about this shift in my work is I love getting to work with folks who don't think of themselves as organizers, who, it turns out are organizers, Right. I think we sometimes create a cult of here's what an organizer looks like, you [00:13:00] have to be a Martin Luther King or a Cesar Chavez and what I love is getting to work with moms and with teenagers and with folks who think of themselves as caring, compassionate, individuals, and when I go into an organization and work with their handful of folks who care about this issue, the DEI team, I get to teach them how to strategically organize. I get to teach them how do you create culture shift over time? I get to teach them how do you figure out who your allies are? How do you figure out how to move people who are neutral? It turns out that there are a lot more organizers out there than we realize if we don't create one definition of what an organizer needs to look like.  [00:13:45] Swati Rayasam: I have been reading this political scholar Eqbal Ahmed, who really talks about the way the burden is on those of us who are deeply committed to movement work, narrow definition people, the burden is really on us to try and [00:14:00] create a liberatory future that feels both achievable. Mm-hmm. and safe for everybody. Because when people engage in mass struggle and in revolution, there are people who are a hundred percent willing to put their lives on the line. People who are willing to die for the cause. And we absolutely need those people. And there are many people along the spectrum who, if you can create a future that feels like it's within their grasp, they will come with you.  [00:14:30] Sandhya Jha: Yep. I teach a lot of organizing classes and have gotten a chance to teach alongside my beloved colleague BK Woodson at Allen Temple Baptist Church, they have a leadership institute there. And one of the books we use is Blueprint for a Revolution by Srđa Popović. And I feel like I learned a lot as we read that book together and thought about how to apply it to the work we're doing in Oakland. They talked about how by engaging in nonviolent direct action, [00:15:00] they created space for elders to be a part of their work and youth to be a part of their work and families to be a part of their work. By making the movement playful. They gave people hope and gave people courage because dictators are terrified of being mocked.  [00:15:17] Swati Rayasam: Yeah, exactly. And I think by being really restrictive or narrow about who we view as actually valuable organizers. And I think labor movements teach us this a lot, right? We really cut ourselves off at the knees on our ability to build a network or to be in touch with the general population, many of whom are more connected than we ever give them credit for.  [00:15:41] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. Yep. it's part of why I love labor organizing. I talk with a lot of people who are disenchanted with organizing who ask me how I can have stayed involved for the past 25 years. And why I've been able to stay in it is cuz I'm organizing alongside workers and they have [00:16:00] full lives. And the work that they're doing in the movement is so that they can live their full lives. And there's something about having that perspective and recognizing the why all the time instead of getting lost in the weeds of the what. Is so important in this work. I think that has been a big theme of my organizing life is how do we build to the greatest common denominator? As my friend BK often says how do we build towards those shared values that often get erased when we are engaged in the right versus left debate. [00:16:39] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I think that it is so important and I also think that it's really hard in this moment of what feels like constant trauma and re trauma. [00:16:51] Swati Rayasam: And to some extent especially when we're talking about the left right dichotomy there are real concerns [00:17:00] about safety. Yep. And there are real concerns about security and who you are in community with and who you can find even the smallest level of acceptance from to ensure that you won't have violence visited upon you. And I think that these conversations of united front organizing, Right. trying to bridge across difference mm-hmm. for a shared goal, for a shared liberatory future Yep. Are really important. And they feel kind of impossible to achieve right now.  [00:17:31] Sandhya Jha: It's interesting cuz I think that in many ways that is true. There are a lot of conversations that I think people with privilege expect, people who are marginalized to engage in. And those expectations are unfair, what I found very frustrating was the number of people with a lot of privilege who would be like, Ugh, I just can't talk to those people. And I'm like, Then who's going to? Exactly. and so I do think that some of this is about being willing to have [00:18:00] hard conversations in the places where we have privilege and recognizing who's at actual risk and showing up in ways that are protective of who is at risk. But that doesn't mean walking away from people who aren't where we are. Right. Because the fact of the matter is everybody's on a journey. And I have watched at the same time some of the disposability culture in movements write off people without giving them any way to address harm, repair harm, and find a pathway back into community. [00:18:41] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. And I think that's why, at least I am feeling really hopeful about, what I've seen over the past couple of years, this really important track into transformative justice and restorative justice, to acknowledge that there is harm that has happened, there are harms that happen every day between people. [00:19:00] And also we are all on our own journey to unlearn the things that we have been taught either directly or indirectly by our upbringing, by our environment and that you cannot easily dispose of people and that people are able to come back into community. Now that comes with a very important caveat that like they recognize the harm. Mm-hmm. that. They have done or how they've been party to it, that they acknowledge that there is healing work that needs to be done both with the person that they harmed and also probably in internally.  [00:19:35] Sandhya Jha: Well, and the community, folks who don't do RJ on a regular basis tend to skip the community aspect. Yeah. That there is actually repair that needs to be done with community and there's work community needs to do to figure out how to re-embrace reabsorb people who have done harm in ways that still protect the person who's been harmed. [00:19:55] Swati Rayasam: Exactly. In ways that do not erase the harm that has happened, but [00:20:00] acknowledge, contextualize it and say, Okay, we are patching this and we are working to move forward in step with each other. Absolutely.  [00:20:09] Sandhya Jha: Can I just say that one of the other things that I think you and I have in common is a real passion for bringing joy back into the work of Justice I quote Fabiana Rodriguez a lot on this particular thing, because I was at an event she was doing eons ago, and she looked out at us and most of us were activists and she said, Listen, y ‘all you keep inviting people to a struggle. I'm on your side and I don't wanna join a struggle. I want to join a party. And that was like a call to arms for me when I heard her say that. I was like, Oh my gosh, you're right. We are so much more fun. Like, I've hung out with people who are anti-trans and anti queer and anti-immigrant and anti refugee. They are not fun people. No, no. We have all of the best parties. So I don't know why we don't [00:21:00] capitalize on that more. So I think the role of joy and justice is so important. And this is why I was so excited to have you on the podcast that I launched recently. [00:21:11] Sandhya Jha: Right. Bending Towards Justice Avatar the last Airbender for the Global Majority.  [00:21:15] Swati Rayasam: So literally like bringing it together. Two of my favorite things right, is like TV shows, wholesome TV shows like Avatar, The Last Airbender that I deeply love and organizing. Yes. All the work that I love. And I think it's true You know, what is actually really the important work is to work to build toward a future that is desirable Yep. That people want to be a part of. Yeah. That people can see happen. Yeah. And I think that is a lot of the difficulty that I have seen in some organizing circles. We are so well versed in what we are against and all of the things that are bad that so many people have a really hard time seeing or visioning or communicating [00:22:00] what it is that we are fighting for. Yeah. Right. And it's not enough to say, I'm fighting for a world where we can all be safe. Right. Yeah. I'm not, I'm fighting for a world where we can all take long naps in the middle of the day if we'd like to do that. Right. Yeah. But like really building and visioning that future of like, in this world in which we are all safe, there will be harm that happens. How do we deal with that? Yeah. What do we do with that? How do we make sure that it is able to keep everybody safe and also able to account for the times in which it is not able to keep everybody safe. [00:22:38] Sandhya Jha: Visionary does not have to mean naive. And we need it to be visionary. And sometimes I forget to do the visionary stuff. I've got a colleague, Dave Bell, he's a farmer who is also an anti-racism trainer and we do a lot of work together. He's a white guy who lives in White Swan, Washington, on the reservation and I remember being at a training with him and I [00:23:00] was all fired up and I was so excited about the conversations we were having and the people were really ready to do the hard work and roll up their sleeves. And Dave says to them, I would like to not have to do this work. And I'm like, What is he talking about? This is amazing. We're doing such good work. And he says, I would like for us not to have to talk about racism all the time. I would rather be farming. I would rather be, taking care of the cows in my field. [00:23:26] Sandhya Jha: I would rather be talking about my pottery work that I'm doing badly but learning how to do, I would rather be doing anything than have this conversation. But I don't get to be on the farm with the wheat, with the cows, with my bad pottery until we figured out how to do this anti-racism work. And it was a really humbling moment for me because I also get into that like I'm an organizer, that's my identity space. And it was this reminder of Dave's doing this. So he gets to live in a world where he gets to hang out in the fields and he [00:24:00] gets to, love on the cows. There's something about being reminded that we're doing this so that eventually we don't have to do it. That I think is actually visionary in its own way and it's important.  [00:24:12] Swati Rayasam: Moving into a little bit more of the grit of like why I asked you to be on the show today. I met you originally when I moved to the Bay Area when you were the executive director of the Oakland Peace Center because At that time I was doing organizing work with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, which is a 20 year old bay area based organization, that was really founded around the Laki Reddy Bali Reddy sex trafficking. Yep. Caste and labor exploitation case that happened in Berkeley in 1999. And I was just so thrilled to be around and have in community so many rad desis. And you also did work with ASATA, right. Historically and are actively doing work with us.  [00:24:56] Sandhya Jha: Absolutely. One of the places I think I invested the most [00:25:00] energy in where we got to spend a lot of quality time in the kitchen was one of the projects, Bay Area Solidarity Summer, an organizing institute, camp, however you wanna refer to it. [00:25:10] Swati Rayasam: Political education, Summer camp.  [00:25:12] Swati Rayasam: Yeah, exactly. For young South Asian Americans who are committed to activism. What I think was the most beautiful part of that program when I was involved in it, and it's still the case today, is for young South Asians who think that they're the only ones who care about justice issues, who haven't met other people, who are South Asian, and identify as justice seekers first to meet each other and realize that there are people just like them. Then to look around and realize that those of us who are usually 10, 15, 20 years older than them are also committed to the work and have been doing it for decades. And then for them to get exposed to the long history of radical visionary organizing and activism of South [00:26:00] Asians here in the US and also in the homelands of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and diasporic countries all over the world. [00:26:13] Sandhya Jha: There's something about realizing, Oh, you have contemporaries, oh, you have elders, oh, you have ancestors. Mm-hmm. Especially in the face of the model minority lie that so many of us have had imposed on us, this lie that all we are all we're supposed to be is cogs in this larger capitalist machine that are non disruptive, which is why we're allowed to survive. And if we are non disruptive enough, we might even be able to be comfortable. And to discover that there's more to our story than that is so exciting and I love, love, love being a part of that.  [00:26:52] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I think that is like fundamentally one of the most important kind of activities that [00:27:00] happens in the ASATA universe, I was a kid who also grew up thinking that there were no other South Asians like me, or there were no other folks who were interested in justice. I spent a lot of time doing, reproductive and queer justice in the south; I always think about what would it have meant if I came in, BASS for 18 to 24 year olds. Yep. what would it have meant if I had come in at a fresh 18 and been able to basically be apprised of the fact that I have this history Yeah. That it's not just me. And that actually, immigration and white supremacy and neo-colonial culture has created this project of assimilation that all of our parents have been in on, in a way to survive Yeah. And to be safe. And I tell my, I tell my mom that a lot because she's always a little surprised about the organizing work that I do. And I was just like, Your job was to survive. My job is to liberate. Yeah. [00:28:00] You know? Yeah. And I could not do that if you were not so focused on creating that environment for me. [00:28:07] Swati Rayasam: I love that.  [00:28:07] Swati Rayasam: we'll drop in the show notes, but, BASS – Bay Area Solidarity Summer is solidaritysummer.org. So we'll put that in the show notes as well as ASATA, the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action is ASATA.org. And yeah, I think that is a really good segue into how we got involved in this amazing project.  [00:28:31] Swati Rayasam: You're tuned in to APEX express at 94.1 KPFA and 89.3, KPFB in Berkeley. And online@kpfa.org.  [00:28:43] Swati Rayasam: I think it was Fall 2021 that you and I were talking. Yep. And you were telling me that you were involved in this amazing archival fellowship project. Is run by the South Asian American Digital Archive and [00:29:00] that you were going to do your project about labor. Mm-hmm. and South Asians. Yep. And my immediate, incredibly naive response was, how many South Asians are there in labor?  [00:29:12] Sandhya Jha: Exactly. And it's not naive. It's interesting cuz I think that this project actually emerged out of my favorite part of BASS, which was when the young adults would ask what their opportunities were in the world of justice. And I would say, you know, there's a place for us in labor justice. It had never crossed most of their minds. Right. We don't think of ourselves as having a role especially in formalized unions. And so SAADA, the South Asian American Digital Archives has an archival fellows project. And the whole purpose of it is to diversify their archives and collect the stories that are usually overlooked in the telling of South Asian American stories. [00:29:56] Sandhya Jha: And they have done a great job over the years of collecting the [00:30:00] stories of informal organizing, like the Punjabi Taxi Drivers campaign, the Bangladeshi Nail Workers Campaign. Those were informal labor organizing campaigns. That have been really well archived and they're amazing stories. I wanted to make sure that the next generation of South Asian activists knew about the South Asians who were actually part of the formal organized labor movement. [00:30:30] Sandhya Jha: And so I spent this past year interviewing, maybe a half a dozen or so South Asian American workers. Generally, not always, but mostly what would be classified as low wage workers who found a pathway into formal organizing bodies, unite here or the building trades or any number of the formal unions that keep [00:31:00] the labor movement alive across the country today. And I'm really proud of the fact that we do have South Asian workers who have moved up the ranks to be official organizers or to be at negotiating tables. And so that's part of the story I thought it was worth us telling. [00:31:19] Swati Rayasam: And I am, I'm so excited that we get to dive deeper into this project and I really love your framing too, around the three large bins that you have, solidarity, spirit and struggle. [00:31:34] Swati Rayasam: Right? Yeah. Yeah.  [00:31:35] Sandhya Jha: I started out with certain assumptions about what I was going to learn, partly because I've been doing labor solidarity work for 25 years at this point. I really thought I knew what I was gonna hear. And what I discovered was there were these consistent themes across, the interviews. that there were these notions of, Oh, what's meaningful to me is [00:32:00] getting to organize across cultures, getting to organize with people who, on the surface and even deep down are very different than me, but we share this vision of what our lives can be. And so that solidarity message I found really powerful. Also, and admittedly because I come out of a spiritual background, was probably looking for it. I was really struck by how many of the interviews ended up talking about the role of spirituality and shaping people's values. And in a couple of instances, organizers said, what my religion taught me was that religion needs to be challenged. And building up that muscle was what helped me challenge systems of injustice in other places. But others said that their journey with their faith tradition was what guided them into the work of labor organizing. [00:32:52] Sandhya Jha: And then that third bucket of struggle, I think is the lived experience of how [00:33:00] hard it is to take on oppressive systems of capitalism, how hard it is to take on decks that are stacked against us and what it means to have somewhere to turn in the midst of those struggles. I will say there were also a couple of lessons I was surprised by because my South Asian identity is so central to my organizing work, I was expecting to collect stories of people who were proud South Asians, who were also proud to be involved in the labor movement. And I assumed that they would see connections between those things because I certainly do. But what I discovered is for the most part, they were like, Yeah, I'm South Asian. I'm not saying that doesn't matter, but it's not super relevant to my organizing work. My organizing work is about [00:34:00] our cross-cultural solidarity. And that was something I hadn't been expecting that emerged as I did those interviews. Interesting. And I'm really grateful that the South Asian American Digital Archives likes telling all of the stories because I think I promised them that what they were going to get was, we're proud to be South Asian organizers. And what I got was, yeah, we're South Asian, we're proud to be organizers. And the that SAADA is like, yeah, that's part of our story too.  [00:34:28] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. And I think that's, that I think is incredibly important. We have this really, amazing series of audio clips from your SAADA interviews that really represent a lot of the themes that you were highlighting about solidarity, spirit, and struggle. And I'm just really excited to play them as we talk through these larger themes in your larger project and the experience of South Asian labor organizers. [00:34:55] Swati Rayasam: This clip is from somebody that you and I both know, which [00:35:00] is Prem Pariyar. I was so thrilled that Prem was a part of your project. I think Prem is an incredible organizer, so yeah tell our listeners a little bit about Prem. Prem  [00:35:09] Sandhya Jha: It was pretty exciting to get to work with him you know, he moved here from Nepal and in Nepal he had been a Dalit activist and he came to the United States and had this notion that in the United States there is no caste and he was disabused of that notion very quickly as a restaurant worker dealing with anti Nepali bias in Indian restaurants, dealing with caste bias in Nepali restaurants, well dealing with Caste bias in all the restaurants.  [00:35:35] Swati Rayasam: Hey, everyone, Narrator Swati here, I just wanted to put in an explanatory comma, a la W Kamau Bell and Hari Kondabolu to talk about some terms you just heard. Sandhya referenced that Prem was a Dalit activist and also talked about Caste bias. For those of you who don't know, Caste is a violent system of oppression and exclusion, which governs social status in many south Asian countries, although it is [00:36:00] most commonly associated with India. It works on an axis of purity and pollution, and it's hereditary. At the top of the caste system are Brahmins, by the way Sandhya and I are both Brahmin, and not even at the bottom, but completely outside of the system are Dalits who were previously referred to by the slur untouchable and Adivasis who are indigenous to South Asia.  [00:36:25] Swati Rayasam: Despite being “illegal” Caste bias, Caste Oppression, Caste apartheid, are still prevalent, both in South Asia and as Sandhya references, in the United States. It manifests in many ways that people experience racial injustice, via socioeconomic inequality, systemic and interpersonal violence, occupation, and through the determination of marriage and other relationships. You can learn more at EqualityLabs.org and APEX currently has a show in the works that delves into this more deeply. Now. Back to Sandhya  [00:36:58] Sandhya Jha: What is [00:37:00] delightful to me is Prem went on to get an MSW and is building out amazing mental health resources for Dalit communities for the Nepali community. Seeking to build out a program where there are more and more people in Nepal who are trained with MSW skills.  [00:37:21] Sandhya Jha: I met with one of his professors from CSU East Bay where he got his degree and she said, You know, that the entire Cal State system is adding caste to its anti-discrimination policies thanks to the work he started at CSU East Bay. And it was really beautiful to hear that because the focus of my conversations with him were more around how his experiences in the restaurants led him into the solidarity work with nail salon workers. [00:37:53] Swati Rayasam: To just, kick back to the caste abolition work that Prem has been doing, that caste abolition work [00:38:00] at CSU East Bay has been such critical work in these ongoing conversations around caste that have been in the South Asian community primarily, but have been percolating elsewhere. [00:38:13] Swati Rayasam: You know, the state of California filed a lawsuit against Cisco systems Yep. For caste discrimination in their workplace and there have been all these conversations around caste and tech work and interplay that with the no tech for apartheid work. Right. That has been happening in Palestinian liberation circles. Yeah. And really building that solidarity movement. So I think that Prem is an absolute powerhouse Yeah. In that regard. But yeah, let's listen to this clip.  [00:38:42] Prem: During that time, I got connected with other community organizer, like workers group. I got connected and so I was connected with nail salon workers, who were exploited at their workplace and with them, [00:39:00] I got to go to the capital in Sacramento. And so I thought I need to advocate for the restaurant workers. that was my first experience, like working with other workers and with the assembly members and like other other policy makers I shared what is happening what kinds of discrimination happening at the workplace. So I advocated for the restaurant workers at that time. I shared my stories and I supported the rights of nail salon workers. I was there to support them and they supported me as well, and it was wonderful. And finally that advocacy worked. And the bill was drafted and it was passed finally. And so it was huge achievement at that time.  [00:39:49] Swati Rayasam: I love that. I think that is such a perfect story of when you win, we all win.  [00:39:56] Sandhya Jha: And what I also love about it is he goes on [00:40:00] to talk about how he has remained in relationship with those nail salon workers. That they show up for each other, that they take each other food, that they show up to each other's baby showers and birthday parties, and there's this sense of community that emerges out of this shared struggle. And so that's a cross-cultural campaign. They were mostly Vietnamese. There were some Bangladeshi nail salon workers, but it was mostly people from a different culture than his. [00:40:27] Sandhya Jha: But somebody at the Asian Health Services program that he was at, saw his gifts, saw his passion, and he really responded to that in exactly, the most powerful way. I can imagine. [00:40:38] Swati Rayasam: And I think one of the nice things as well about that is that person at Asian Health Services connected Prem in and the Nail Salon Worker group, California Healthy Nail Salon Collaborative, Prem came from Nepal, I'm not sure, but the extent to which his organizing background and how comfortable he was in the US organizing space around labor [00:41:00] issues was probably significantly less that worker group took it upon themselves when they saw Prem come in to say, Oh, you are advocating on behalf of restaurant workers. Great. Why don't you join us? Let's help support and so the nail salon workers saw Prem, saw solidarity with Prem and said, It is our responsibility mm-hmm to bring you into this space to connect you in and to move in, struggle together. Yeah. Toward our shared goals of safety, of health, of rights. Yep.  [00:41:35] Sandhya Jha: Exactly.  [00:41:36] Swati Rayasam: So, we have this clip from Daljit, tell me a little bit about Daljit. Daljit [00:41:42] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. Daljit was an attorney who now reads tarot for people because she needed a break from the toxicity of that career and how it was taking her away from her family. Daljit is a deeply spiritual person and, [00:42:00] as I mentioned before, this theme of spirit showed up in some really beautiful ways in some of the interviews. I loved the way she understood her Sikh tradition as foundationally being connected with the land and foundationally connected with the people who work the land. [00:42:15] Daljit: Agriculture is our culture and the religion that I was born into, Siki, the founder of that faith was a farmer. And so a lot of the scripture, the analogies, the metaphors, the poetry, the music, the songs, the boon, the traditional folk songs, that can be taunting and teasing banter, all that stuff the land is the framework for that. And my most favorite line from the Guru Granth Sahib, our holy book, is, [speaks Punjabi] and that basically means that, the waters our guru, the airs our father, but our mother is Earth. And that's the greatest of all , and that's adherence to ecosystem. That's the [00:43:00] indigenous Cosmo vision that should be paramount. And that's what I try to teach my children. And so I think that's what I was taught as a kid without necessarily being able to pinpoint it, but it was just infused throughout our songs, our music, our food, the Harvest, there's two times a year that our celebrations, whether it Baisakhi or Lohri. It's so connected to the harvest and what is coming out of the soil or not. And you're connected to the cycles of nature. [00:43:28] Swati Rayasam: The connection between nature land, spirituality the way that it shows up in so many faith backgrounds and so many faith organizers, I think is really, really beautiful.  [00:43:41] Sandhya Jha: And I love that Daljit Kaursoni who was raised in this tradition, has found her way to Buddhism and is raising her kids with those connections, but without ever losing this grounding in the liberation of the land, the liberation of the [00:44:00] people. [00:44:00] Sandhya Jha: And for that to be a key element of her spirituality, even as her spirituality evolves, I think it's pretty powerful.  Tafadar [00:44:08] Sandhya Jha: One of the other people I got to interview ,Tafadar, he's a Bangladeshi American in the building trades and is a deeply committed Marxist. For me, this was a particularly exciting interview because I'm Bengali, so from West Bengal, before partition, Bangladesh and what's now West Bengal, were one state. And so it was fun to get to talk with him and to say, Hey, this is our legacy as Bengalis is radical worker organizing. [00:44:40] Sandhya Jha: And I remember saying to him, Some people in the building trades are not super excited to be working with brown people. And some people in the building trades are a little biased against women. And as a very, very progressive South Asian? How do you navigate that [00:45:00] space? [00:45:00] Sandhya Jha: And he said, Here's the thing is, yeah, I organize alongside some moderate to conservative white folks from New Jersey and he said, but in the building trades, if that moderate to conservative white guy from New Jersey decides he doesn't like my feminist politics, or he doesn't like my brown skin, if he decides that's a reason not to train me, he might die. And it was really interesting because even though I've been doing labor justice work for a long time, it was one of those moments I was like, Oh, right. Your work is very dangerous and you all have to rely on each other whether you like each other or not. That is the magic of organizing that no one ever talks about. This is why we can do cross class, cross-cultural work because literally you have to trust each other with your lives. Right. That was a really clarifying moment for me. And it was one of those interesting moments where I was like, [00:46:00] Solidarity is not a romantic thing. Uh, it is very much a matter of life and death. [00:46:05] Sandhya Jha: And I think that is really important and that exact thing that you brought up, you don't even have to necessarily trust somebody. Right. But you do need them. Yep. Right. And like that really clear understanding that like your fates are intertwined and it is truly in everybody's best interest. If you are trained well, irrespective of whether or not at lunch, I'm interested in sitting anywhere near you. I think that's really great. [00:46:32] Sandhya Jha: One of the things that was really exciting about talking with Tafadar was the reminder that labor organizing and formal union organizing at its best can be in solidarity with other movements really worker justice and housing justice and racial justice are inseparable, on some level. And so, one of the most inspiring stories I got to hear across all of these interviews [00:47:00] was a campaign that brought together folks across the anti- gentrification, the immigrant rights, and the labor justice movement. [00:47:14] Tafadar: It's ironic, building affordable housing with deadly exploitation. And, um, to do this, the de blassio administration, they embark on massive major rezonings of poor areas to relax the local zoning laws to be able to bring in these developments. And a couple of years ago, my, my union in local 79's. Took a very sharp turn towards a community organizing approach because labor can't win on our own, and that's the perspective that all of labor should adopt. In order to fight against the sweatshops in our industry. We united with a lot of community organizations in the South Bronx. [00:47:53] Tafadar: We formed the South Bronx, Safe Southern Boulevard Coalition. And along with these groups, we [00:48:00] protested and did a whole lot of activism, lobbying, community organizing to stop the rezoning of Southern Boulevard, which is a massive stretch in the South Bronx, while the De Blassio administration had succeeded in another part of the Bronx where there's like massive displacement still underway right now. And we were determined to stop it there. And it was a beautiful thing that we can unite because on our end as labor, we had to prevent all these trash companies from coming in and exploiting workers. And we were working with these tenants who are afraid of being displaced. And people generally, we do need revitalization of our neighborhoods. We do need investment. We do need things to be changed and made better. For us. If it's not for us, if it's done without us, then eventually we're not even gonna be here anymore. So we had that alliance going on and not only did we manage to stop that rezoning, we also educated the local city councilman on why his position was wrong and supporting the rezoning. And he eventually completely flipped this [00:49:00] position. And now chairs the land use committee of the city council from the perspective that we educated him on, which it's just been a very interesting dynamic. But, there's a lot of rezoning battles all over the city that's like the main front of anti gentrification struggles. And I've been watching those kinds of campaigns go on since I began organizing about 15, 16. I've seen very different approaches to them, but I've never seen any model really work until that one kicked in where Labor and the community came together. So that was one of my favorite campaigns because of that lesson that we were able to concretely put into practice and set as an example for not only for community movements all over New York City, but also for Labor. [00:49:43] Sandhya Jha: I think this hit me in particular because I've done so much work around antis displacement in Oakland, and my experience has been. [00:49:53] Sandhya Jha: That while for most of us on the ground, the connection between housing justice and labor justice is really clear. When you [00:50:00] start getting into the technical policy issues and the funding issues, the folks who are running labor and housing justice or affordable housing, struggle to find ways to collaborate. And it's been one of my consistent heartbreaks for at least a decade at this point because I work at the intersection of those things and sometimes I despair of us being able to find ways to move forward together. And so to hear a story like this one and to be reminded at core, those justice issues can and must be we already knew, must be, but actually can function together to build a better community. That was actually really life giving for me to hear.  [00:50:45] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree. And I think the point that Tafadar as well brings in the clip of just saying we knew that we could do this, but we knew we couldn't do this without community organizing. Right? Yeah. That labor couldn't do this alone. Yeah. [00:51:00] And I think that is a lot of what, when we talk about solidarity politics, it's not just a backdoor way of inclusion for inclusion's sake, we have to all do this. Actually, it is integral that all of us are involved in any of these campaigns because it impacts all of us. And because we are not going to win with only a single constituency and in the very same way that, Tafadar was identifying that labor couldn't do that alone. in community organizing spaces that you and I have been in mm-hmm. , like we are constantly talking about how we cannot do any of this without labor. Yep. And I think a beautiful example of that is the Block the Boat campaign yeah that the Arab Resource Organizing Center, started back in 2014 and then again during 2021 to block the Zim ship from the port of Oakland. And like this community organization [00:52:00] AROC could not do that without working with the longshoreman to collaborate with the port workers. And I think that when we see the marriage of community organizing and labor organizing, that is when we get the power of grassroots organizing. [00:52:16] Sandhya Jha: Something I wanna mention about the SAADA Fellowship that I was really grateful for: two things. First off, they did a really good job of making sure we got trained in grassroots oral history. So they took really seriously what it meant for this to be justice work. And they made sure we had exposure to methodology that was gonna lift up and honor and foster the voices of people whose stories don't get heard often enough. And that was a really big deal to me. The other thing is they made sure that we had an advisory board, people who are in this [00:53:00] work who could help us, figure out who to talk with, who could help us build out an event strategy. And you helped me build out my advisory committee. Anibel Ferris-Comelo who is with the University of California Labor Center,  [00:53:14] Swati Rayasam: Prem Pariyar, a Nepali Dalit restaurant worker, organizer pushing for Caste as a protected category with Equality Labs, a Dalit feminist organization, and a social worker supporting the mental health needs of his and many other South Asian communities in Alameda county.  [00:53:31] Swati Rayasam: Will Jamil Wiltchko with the California Trade Justice Coalition, Terry Valen who I did a lot of organizing with at the beginning of the pandemic, around the struggles that seafarers were facing with the onset of COVID-19. And he's the organizational director of the Filipino Community Center in San Francisco. The president of NAFCON which is the National Alliance for Filipino Concerns and just an all in all amazing organizer [00:53:57] Sandhya Jha: the last thing I wanna mention [00:54:00] is SAADA also helped me set up a digital exhibit with Art by Madhvi Trivedi Patak and I wanted to give them a shoutout because they're an incredible artist, but also they grew up in a working class family and didn't get exposed to what it looks like to do labor justice. And so as they developed the artwork to go with the digital exhibit, they got to experience the possibilities of labor solidarity that they hadn't gotten to experience as a child. And so I really loved that Madhvi was a part of this project as well [00:54:38] Swati Rayasam: All of the clips that you shared really identifying, again, these like huge fundamental pillars of solidarity and spirit and struggle. these clips were amazing. They are so rich and so layered with all of these people's varying and different experiences. Really showing in [00:55:00] all of these different walks of life at all of these ages with all of these experiences, that all of these people have this unified and shared identity in struggle, in spirit, and in solidarity for liberation. [00:55:14] Sandhya Jha: And one of the things that I think is worth celebrating is whether they see it as part of their South Asian identity or not. People who do identify as South Asian now have this resource that says there's a home for you in the labor movement. Yes, there are. There is a value to your voice. There is a value to your wisdom, there's a value to your experience in the labor movement. [00:55:36] Swati Rayasam: I think it's a beautiful project. Sandhya, I think it has been an amazing amount of work I've watched you do over the past year. These stories are so wonderful. I really encourage people to check it out. Where can they find your project? [00:55:49] Sandhya Jha: The website's www.saada.org/acfp [00:56:00] /exhibit/solidarity-forever. We'll put that in the notes. We'll definitely put that in the show notes. [00:56:05] Swati Rayasam: I just wanna make sure that we replug your podcast Bending Toward Justice Avatar, The Last Air Bender for the Global Majority and you can find that at tinyurl.com slash ATLA podcast, Capital P (tinyurl.com/ATLAPodcast). And then the last thing that I also wanna make sure that we plug is Without Fear Consulting. [00:56:27] Sandhya Jha: I love working with folks who know that their organization could be a little more liberative, and are, just not quite sure where to start. I love working with a team of folks who want to be about the work of incorporating diversity, equity, and inclusion into the DNA of their organization and I love setting them up so that they can keep doing that long after I'm working with them. So please do find me withoutfearconsulting.com. If you're interested in that.  [00:56:58] Swati Rayasam: Amazing. Sandhya [00:57:00] Jha, Pastor, Racial Justice consultant, podcast host, archivist, singer songwriter, amazing cook. You can do it all. I think you deserve a nap. it has been amazing talking to you. I am so glad to be able to hear about your project and also to hear a lot more about your life.  [00:57:23] Sandhya Jha: Yay. Thank you so much. [00:57:25]  Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org backslash program, backslash apex express to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex express is produced by Miko Lee Jalena Keane-Lee and Paige Chung and special editing by Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the KPFA staff for their support have a great night.  The post APEX Express 1.5.23 South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement appeared first on KPFA.

Home to some 175 million Muslims, Bengal—incorporating today's Bangladesh and the Indian state of West Bengal—is one of the largest but least known regions of the Muslim world. Since the medieval period, it has also reared a rich literature in the Bangla language, written by both Muslims and Hindus alike. In this episode, we'll examine how one particular text, the Nabivamśa, helped convert many Bengalis to Islam in the seventeenth and eighteenth century. Written by Sayyid Sultan, the Nabivamśa was the first biography of the Prophet Muhammad to be written in Bangla. Yet rather than rejecting Bengal's Vaishnava Hindu traditions, Sayyid Sultan incorporated them into his cosmic history of divine revelation. And so, as much as it was a biography of an Arabian prophet, the Nabivamśa was also a story of a Muslim Krishna who was sent by God as an heir to Abraham and a forerunner of Muhammad. Nile Green talks to Ayesha Irani, author of The Muhammad Avatara: Salvation History, Translation, and the Making of Bengali Islam (Oxford University Press, 2021), which was a finalist for the American Academy of Religion's Book Award for Excellence in the Study of Religion.

Sean and Jonny talk about their schooldays, focussing mainly on Jonny's ridiculous teenage years spent in a gang called 'The Blazing Bengalis'. Also they try and book a famous ex-boxer to appear on the pod who Sean has a strange connection to. Also Jonny raps. This one has to be heard to be believed. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Bengalis have a rich history of stories and some of the scariest ghosts reside in their stories.

Bengalis have been practising their own version of Halloween, the night the dead souls walk the earth. So what is the history behind this day and how can we be part of this?

Charles C. Mann is the author of three of my favorite history books: 1491. 1493, and The Wizard and the Prophet. We discuss:why Native American civilizations collapsed and why they failed to make more technological progresswhy he disagrees with Will MacAskill about longtermismwhy there aren't any successful slave revoltshow geoengineering can help us solve climate changewhy Bitcoin is like the Chinese Silver Tradeand much much more!Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here. Some really cool guests coming up, subscribe to find out about future episodes!Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.If you enjoyed this episode, you may also enjoy my interviews of Will MacAskill (about longtermism), Steve Hsu (about intelligence and embryo selection), and David Deutsch (about AI and the problems with America's constitution).If you end up enjoying this episode, I would be super grateful if you shared it. Post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group-chats, and throw it up on any relevant subreddits & forums you follow. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.Timestamps(0:00:00) -Epidemically Alternate Realities(0:00:25) -Weak Points in Empires(0:03:28) -Slave Revolts(0:08:43) -Slavery Ban(0:12:46) - Contingency & The Pyramids(0:18:13) - Teotihuacan(0:20:02) - New Book Thesis(0:25:20) - Gender Ratios and Silicon Valley(0:31:15) - Technological Stupidity in the New World(0:41:24) - Religious Demoralization(0:44:00) - Critiques of Civilization Collapse Theories(0:49:05) - Virginia Company + Hubris(0:53:30) - China's Silver Trade(1:03:03) - Wizards vs. Prophets(1:07:55) - In Defense of Regulatory Delays(0:12:26) -Geoengineering(0:16:51) -Finding New Wizards(0:18:46) -Agroforestry is Underrated(1:18:46) -Longtermism & Free MarketsTranscriptDwarkesh Patel   Okay! Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Charles Mann, who is the author of three of my favorite books, including 1491: New Revelations of America before Columbus. 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created, and The Wizard and the Prophet: Two Remarkable Scientists and Their Dueling Visions to Shape Tomorrow's World. Charles, welcome to the Lunar Society.Charles C. Mann   It's a pleasure to be here.Epidemically Alternate RealitiesDwarkesh Patel   My first question is: How much of the New World was basically baked into the cake? So at some point, people from Eurasia were going to travel to the New World, bringing their diseases. Considering disparities and where they would survive, if the Acemoglu theory that you cited is correct, then some of these places were bound to have good institutions and some of them were bound to have bad institutions. Plus, because of malaria, there were going to be shortages in labor that people would try to fix with African slaves. So how much of all this was just bound to happen? If Columbus hadn't done it, then maybe 50 years down the line, would someone from Italy have done it? What is the contingency here?Charles C. Mann   Well, I think that some of it was baked into the cake. It was pretty clear that at some point, people from Eurasia and the Western Hemisphere were going to come into contact with each other. I mean, how could that not happen, right? There was a huge epidemiological disparity between the two hemispheres––largely because by a quirk of evolutionary history, there were many more domesticable animals in Eurasia and the Eastern hemisphere. This leads almost inevitably to the creation of zoonotic diseases: diseases that start off in animals and jump the species barrier and become human diseases. Most of the great killers in human history are zoonotic diseases. When people from Eurasia and the Western Hemisphere meet, there are going to be those kinds of diseases. But if you wanted to, it's possible to imagine alternative histories. There's a wonderful book by Laurent Binet called Civilizations that, in fact, does just that. It's a great alternative history book. He imagines that some of the Vikings came and extended further into North America, bringing all these diseases, and by the time of Columbus and so forth, the epidemiological balance was different. So when Columbus and those guys came, these societies killed him, grabbed his boats, and went and conquered Europe. It's far-fetched, but it does say that this encounter would've happened and that the diseases would've happened, but it didn't have to happen in exactly the way that it did. It's also perfectly possible to imagine that Europeans didn't engage in wholesale slavery. There was a huge debate when this began about whether or not slavery was a good idea. There were a lot of reservations, particularly among the Catholic monarchy asking the Pope “Is it okay that we do this?” You could imagine the penny dropping in a slightly different way. So, I think some of it was bound to happen, but how exactly it happened was really up to chance, contingency, and human agency,Weak Points in EmpiresDwarkesh Patel   When the Spanish first arrived in the 15th and 16th centuries, were the Incas and the Aztecs at a particularly weak point or particularly decadent? Or was this just how well you should have expected this civilization to be functioning at any given time period?Charles C. Mann   Well, typically, empires are much more jumbly and fragile entities than we imagine. There's always fighting at the top. What Hernán Cortés was able to do, for instance, with the Aztecs––who are better called The Triple Alliance (the term “Aztec” is an invention from the 19th century). The Triple Alliance was comprised of three groups of people in central Mexico, the largest of which were the Mexica, who had the great city of Tenochtitlan. The other two guys really resented them and so what Cortes was able to do was foment a civil war within the Aztec empire: taking some enemies of the Aztec, some members of the Aztec empire, and creating an entirely new order. There's a fascinating set of history that hasn't really emerged into the popular consciousness. I didn't include it in 1491 or 1493 because it was so new that I didn't know anything about it; everything was largely from Spanish and Mexican scholars about the conquest within the conquest. The allies of the Spaniards actually sent armies out and conquered big swaths of northern and southern Mexico and Central America. So there's a far more complex picture than we realized even 15 or 20 years ago when I first published 1491. However, the conquest wasn't as complete as we think. I talk a bit about this in 1493 but what happens is Cortes moves in and he marries his lieutenants to these indigenous people, creating this hybrid nobility that then extended on to the Incas. The Incas were a very powerful but unstable empire and Pizarro had the luck to walk in right after a civil war. When he did that right after a civil war and massive epidemic, he got them at a very vulnerable point. Without that, it all would have been impossible. Pizarro cleverly allied with the losing side (or the apparently losing side in this in the Civil War), and was able to create a new rallying point and then attack the winning side. So yes, they came in at weak points, but empires typically have these weak points because of fratricidal stuff going on in the leadership.Dwarkesh Patel   It does also remind me of the East India Trading Company.Charles C. Mann   And the Mughal empire, yeah. Some of those guys in Bengal invited Clive and his people in. In fact, I was struck by this. I had just been reading this book, maybe you've heard of it: The Anarchy by William Dalrymple.Dwarkesh Patel   I've started reading it, yeah but I haven't made much progress.Charles C. Mann   It's an amazing book! It's so oddly similar to what happened. There was this fratricidal stuff going on in the Mughal empire, and one side thought, “Oh, we'll get these foreigners to come in, and we'll use them.” That turned out to be a big mistake.Dwarkesh Patel   Yes. What's also interestingly similar is the efficiency of the bureaucracy. Niall Ferguson has a good book on the British Empire and one thing he points out is that in India, the ratio between an actual English civil servant and the Indian population was about 1: 3,000,000 at the peak of the ratio. Which obviously is only possible if you have the cooperation of at least the elites, right? So it sounds similar to what you were saying about Cortes marrying his underlings to the nobility. Charles C. Mann   Something that isn't stressed enough in history is how often the elites recognize each other. They join up in arrangements that increase both of their power and exploit the poor schmucks down below. It's exactly what happened with the East India Company, and it's exactly what happened with Spain. It's not so much that there was this amazing efficiency, but rather, it was a mutually beneficial arrangement for Xcalack, which is now a Mexican state. It had its rights, and the people kept their integrity, but they weren't really a part of the Spanish Empire. They also weren't really wasn't part of Mexico until around 1857. It was a good deal for them. The same thing was true for the Bengalis, especially the elites who made out like bandits from the British Empire.Slave Revolts Dwarkesh Patel   Yeah, that's super interesting. Why was there only one successful slave revolt in the new world in Haiti? In many of these cases, the ratios between slaves and the owners are just huge. So why weren't more of them successful?Charles C. Mann   Well, you would first have to define ‘successful'. Haiti wasn't successful if you meant ‘creating a prosperous state that would last for a long time.' Haiti was and is (to no small extent because of the incredible blockade that was put on it by all the other nations) in terrible shape. Whereas in the case of Paul Maurice, you had people who were self-governing for more than 100 years.. Eventually, they were incorporated into the larger project of Brazil. There's a great Brazilian classic that's equivalent to what Moby Dick or Huck Finn is to us called Os Sertões by a guy named Cunha. And it's good! It's been translated into this amazing translation in English called ​​Rebellion in the Backlands. It's set in the 1880s, and it's about the creation of a hybrid state of runaway slaves, and so forth, and how they had essentially kept their independence and lack of supervision informally, from the time of colonialism. Now the new Brazilian state is trying to take control, and they fight them to the last person. So you have these effectively independent areas in de facto, if not de jure, that existed in the Americas for a very long time. There are some in the US, too, in the great dismal swamp, and you hear about those marooned communities in North Carolina, in Mexico, where everybody just agreed “these places aren't actually under our control, but we're not going to say anything.”  If they don't mess with us too much, we won't mess with them too much. Is that successful or not? I don't know.Dwarkesh Patel   Yeah, but it seems like these are temporary successes..Charles C. Mann   I mean, how long did nations last? Like Genghis Khan! How long did the Khan age last? But basically, they had overwhelming odds against them. There's an entire colonial system that was threatened by their existence. Similar to the reasons that rebellions in South Asia were suppressed with incredible brutality–– these were seen as so profoundly threatening to this entire colonial order that people exerted a lot more force against them than you would think would be worthwhile.Dwarkesh Patel   Right. It reminds me of James Scott's Against the Grain. He pointed out that if you look at the history of agriculture, there're many examples where people choose to run away as foragers in the forest, and then the state tries to bring them back into the fold.Charles C. Mann   Right. And so this is exactly part of that dynamic. I mean, who wants to be a slave, right? So as many people as possible ended up leaving. It's easier in some places than others.. it's very easy in Brazil. There are 20 million people in the Brazilian Amazon and the great bulk of them are the descendants of people who left slavery. They're still Brazilians and so forth, but, you know, they ended up not being slaves.Slavery BanDwarkesh Patel   Yeah, that's super fascinating. What is the explanation for why slavery went from being historically ever-present to ending at a particular time when it was at its peak in terms of value and usefulness? What's the explanation for why, when Britain banned the slave trade, within 100 or 200 years, there ended up being basically no legal sanction for slavery anywhere in the world?Charles C. Mann   This is a really good question and the real answer is that historians have been arguing about this forever. I mean, not forever, but you know, for decades, and there's a bunch of different explanations. I think the reason it's so hard to pin down is… kind of amazing. I mean, if you think about it, in 1800, if you were to have a black and white map of the world and put red in countries in which slavery was illegal and socially accepted, there would be no red anywhere on the planet. It's the most ancient human institution that there is. The Code of Hammurabi is still the oldest complete legal code that we have, and about a third of it is about rules for when you can buy slaves, when you can sell slaves, how you can mistreat them, and how you can't–– all that stuff. About a third of it is about buying, selling, and working other human beings. So this has been going on for a very, very long time. And then in a century and a half, it suddenly changes. So there's some explanation, and it's that machinery gets better. But the reason to have people is that you have these intelligent autonomous workers, who are like the world's best robots. From the point of view of the owner, they're fantastically good, except they're incredibly obstreperous and when they're caught, you're constantly afraid they're going to kill you. So if you have a chance to replace them with machinery, or to create a wage where you can run wage people, pay wage workers who are kept in bad conditions but somewhat have more legal rights, then maybe that's a better deal for you. Another one is that industrialization produced different kinds of commodities that became more and more valuable, and slavery was typically associated with the agricultural laborer. So as agriculture diminished as a part of the economy, slavery become less and less important and it became easier to get rid of them. Another one has to do with the beginning of the collapse of the colonial order. Part of it has to do with.. (at least in the West, I don't know enough about the East) the rise of a serious abolition movement with people like Wilberforce and various Darwins and so forth. And they're incredibly influential, so to some extent, I think people started saying, “Wow, this is really bad.”  I suspect that if you looked at South Asia and Africa, you might see similar things having to do with a social moment, but I just don't know enough about that. I know there's an anti-slavery movement and anti-caste movement in which we're all tangled up in South Asia, but I just don't know enough about it to say anything intelligent.Dwarkesh Patel   Yeah, the social aspect of it is really interesting. The things you mentioned about automation, industrialization, and ending slavery… Obviously, with time, that might have actually been why it expanded, but its original inception in Britain happened before the Industrial Revolution took off. So that was purely them just taking a huge loss because this movement took hold. Charles C. Mann   And the same thing is true for Bartolome de Las Casas. I mean, Las Casas, you know, in the 1540s just comes out of nowhere and starts saying, “Hey! This is bad.” He is the predecessor of the modern human rights movement. He's an absolutely extraordinary figure, and he has huge amounts of influence. He causes Spain's king in the 1540s to pass what they call The New Laws which says no more slavery, which is a devastating blow enacted to the colonial economy in Spain because they depended on having slaves to work in the silver mines in the northern half of Mexico and in Bolivia, which was the most important part of not only the Spanish colonial economy but the entire Spanish empire. It was all slave labor. And they actually tried to ban it. Now, you can say they came to their senses and found a workaround in which it wasn't banned. But it's still… this actually happened in the 1540s. Largely because people like Las Casas said, “This is bad! you're going to hell doing this.”Contingency & The Pyramids Dwarkesh Patel   Right. I'm super interested in getting into The Wizard and the Prophet section with you. Discussing how movements like environmentalism, for example, have been hugely effective. Again, even though it probably goes against the naked self-interest of many countries. So I'm very interested in discussing that point about why these movements have been so influential!But let me continue asking you about globalization in the world. I'm really interested in how you think about contingency in history, especially given that you have these two groups of people that have been independently evolving and separated for tens of thousands of years. What things turn out to be contingent? What I find really interesting from the book was how both of them developed pyramids––  who would have thought that structure would be within our extended phenotype or something?Charles C. Mann    It's also geometry! I mean, there's only a certain limited number of ways you can pile up stone blocks in a stable way. And pyramids are certainly one of them. It's harder to have a very long-lasting monument that's a cylinder. Pyramids are also easier to build: if you get a cylinder, you have to have scaffolding around it and it gets harder and harder.With pyramids, you can use each lower step to put the next one, on and on, and so forth. So pyramids seem kind of natural to me. Now the material you make them up of is going to be partly determined by what there is. In Cahokia and in the Mississippi Valley, there isn't a lot of stone. So people are going to make these earthen pyramids and if you want them to stay on for a long time, there's going to be certain things you have to do for the structure which people figured out. For some pyramids, you had all this marble around them so you could make these giant slabs of marble, which seems, from today's perspective, incredibly wasteful. So you're going to have some things that are universal like that, along with the apparently universal, or near-universal idea that people who are really powerful like to identify themselves as supernatural and therefore want to be commemorated. Dwarkesh Patel   Yes, I visited Mexico City recently.Charles C. Mann Beautiful city!TeotihuacanDwarkesh Patel Yeah, the pyramids there… I think I was reading your book at the time or already had read your book. What struck me was that if I remember correctly, they didn't have the wheel and they didn't have domesticated animals. So if you really think about it, that's a really huge amount of human misery and toil it must have taken to put this thing together as basically a vanity project. It's like a huge negative connotation if you think about what it took to construct it.Charles C. Mann   Sure, but there are lots of really interesting things about Teotihuacan. This is just one of those things where you can only say so much in one book. If I was writing the two-thousand-page version of 1491, I would have included this. So Tehuácan pretty much starts out as a standard Imperial project, and they build all these huge castles and temples and so forth. There's no reason to suppose it was anything other than an awful experience (like building the pyramids), but then something happened to Teotihuacan that we don't understand. All these new buildings started springing up during the next couple of 100 years, and they're all very very similar. They're like apartment blocks and there doesn't seem to be a great separation between rich and poor. It's really quite striking how egalitarian the architecture is because that's usually thought to be a reflection of social status. So based on the way it looks, could there have been a political revolution of some sort? Where they created something much more egalitarian, probably with a bunch of good guy kings who weren't interested in elevating themselves so much? There's a whole chapter in the book by David Wingrove and David Graeber, The Dawn of Everything about this, and they make this argument that Tehuácan is an example that we can look at as an ancient society that was much more socially egalitarian than we think. Now, in my view, they go a little overboard–– it was also an aggressive imperial power and it was conquering much of the Maya world at the same time. But it is absolutely true that something that started out one way can start looking very differently quite quickly. You see this lots of times in the Americas in the Southwest–– I don't know if you've ever been to Chaco Canyon or any of those places, but you should absolutely go! Unfortunately, it's hard to get there because of the roads terrible but overall, it's totally worth it. It's an amazing place. Mesa Verde right north of it is incredible, it's just really a fantastic thing to see. There are these enormous structures in Chaco Canyon, that we would call castles if they were anywhere else because they're huge. The biggest one, Pueblo Bonito, is like 800 rooms or some insane number like that. And it's clearly an imperial venture, we know that because it's in this canyon and one side is getting all the good light and good sun–– a whole line of these huge castles. And then on the other side is where the peons lived. We also know that starting around 1100, everybody just left! And then their descendants start the Puebla, who are these sort of intensely socially egalitarian type of people. It looks like a political revolution took place. In fact, in the book I'm now writing, I'm arguing (in a sort of tongue-in-cheek manner but also seriously) that this is the first American Revolution! They got rid of these “kings” and created these very different and much more egalitarian societies in which ordinary people had a much larger voice about what went on.Dwarkesh Patel   Interesting. I think I got a chance to see the Teotihuacan apartments when I was there, but I wonder if we're just looking at the buildings that survived. Maybe the buildings that survived were better constructed because they were for the elites? The way everybody else lived might have just washed away over the years.Charles C. Mann   So what's happened in the last 20 years is basically much more sophisticated surveys of what is there. I mean, what you're saying is absolutely the right question to ask. Are the rich guys the only people with things that survived while the ordinary people didn't? You can never be absolutely sure, but what they did is they had these ground penetrating radar surveys, and it looks like this egalitarian construction extends for a huge distance. So it's possible that there are more really, really poor people. But at least you'd see an aggressively large “middle class” getting there, which is very, very different from the picture you have of the ancient world where there's the sun priest and then all the peasants around them.New Book ThesisDwarkesh Patel   Yeah. By the way, is the thesis of the new book something you're willing to disclose at this point? It's okay if you're not––Charles C. Mann   Sure sure, it's okay! This is a sort of weird thing, it's like a sequel or offshoot of 1491. That book, I'm embarrassed to say, was supposed to end with another chapter. The chapter was going to be about the American West, which is where I grew up, and I'm very fond of it. And apparently, I had a lot to say because when I outlined the chapter; the outline was way longer than the actual completed chapters of the rest of the book. So I sort of tried to chop it up and so forth, and it just was awful. So I just cut it. If you carefully look at 1491, it doesn't really have an ending. At the end, the author sort of goes, “Hey! I'm ending, look at how great this is!” So this has been bothering me for 15 years. During the pandemic, when I was stuck at home like so many other people, I held out what I had since I've been saving string and tossing articles that I came across into a folder, and I thought, “Okay, I'm gonna write this out more seriously now.” 15 or 20 years later. And then it was pretty long so I thought “Maybe this could be an e-book.” then I showed it to my editor. And he said, “That is not an e-book. That's an actual book.” So I take a chapter and hope I haven't just padded it, and it's about the North American West. My kids like the West, and at various times, they've questioned what it would be like to move out there because I'm in Massachusetts, where they grew up. So I started thinking “What is the West going to be like, tomorrow? When I'm not around 30 or 50 years from now?”It seems to be that you won't know who's president or who's governor or anything, but there are some things we can know. It'd be hotter and drier than it is now or has been in the recent past, like that wouldn't really be a surprise. So I think we can say that it's very likely to be like that. All the projections are that something like 40% of the people in the area between the Mississippi and the Pacific will be of Latino descent–– from the south, so to speak. And there's a whole lot of people from Asia along the Pacific coast, so it's going to be a real ethnic mixing ground. There's going to be an epicenter of energy, sort of no matter what happens. Whether it's solar, whether it's wind, whether it's petroleum, or hydroelectric, the West is going to be economically extremely powerful, because energy is a fundamental industry.And the last thing is (and this is the iffiest of the whole thing), but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the ongoing recuperation of sovereignty by the 294 federally recognized Native nations in the West is going to continue. That's been going in this very jagged way, but definitely for the last 50 or 60 years, as long as I've been around, the overall trend is in a very clear direction. So then you think, okay, this West is going to be wildly ethnically diverse, full of competing sovereignties and overlapping sovereignties. Nature is also going to really be in kind of a terminal. Well, that actually sounds like the 1200s! And the conventional history starts with Lewis and Clark and so forth. There's this breakpoint in history when people who looked like me came in and sort of rolled in from the East and kind of took over everything. And the West disappears! That separate entity, the native people disappear, and nature is tamed. That's pretty much what was in the textbooks when I was a kid. Do you know who Frederick Jackson Turner is? Dwarkesh Patel  No.Charles C. Mann So he's like one of these guys where nobody knows who he is. But he was incredibly influential in setting intellectual ideas. He wrote this article in 1893, called The Significance of the Frontier. It was what established this idea that there's this frontier moving from East to West and on this side was savagery and barbarism, and on this other side of civilization was team nature and wilderness and all that. Then it goes to the Pacific, and that's the end of the West. That's still in the textbooks but in a different form: we don't call native people “lurking savages” as he did. But it's in my kids' textbooks. If you have kids, it'll very likely be in their textbook because it's such a bedrock. What I'm saying is that's actually not a useful way to look at it, given what's coming up. A wonderful Texas writer, Bruce Sterling, says, “To know the past, you first have to understand the future.”It's funny, right? But what he means is that all of us have an idea of where the trajectory of history is going. A whole lot of history is about asking, “How did we get here? How do we get there?” To get that, you have to have an idea of what the “there” is. So I'm saying, I'm writing a history of the West with that West that I talked about in mind. Which gives you a very different picture: a lot more about indigenous fire management, the way the Hohokam survived the drought of the 1200s, and a little bit less about Billy the Kid. Gender Ratios and Silicon Valley Dwarkesh Patel   I love that quote hahaha. Speaking of the frontier, maybe it's a mistaken concept, but I remember that in a chapter of 1493, you talk about these rowdy adventurer men who outnumber the women in the silver mines and the kind of trouble that they cause. I wonder if there's some sort of distant analogy to the technology world or Silicon Valley, where you have the same kind of gender ratio and you have the same kind of frontier spirit? Maybe not the same physical violence––– more sociologically. Is there any similarity there?Charles C. Mann   I think it's funny, I hadn't thought about it. But it's certainly funny to think about. So let me do this off the top of my head. I like the idea that at the end of it, I can say, “wait, wait, that's ridiculous.“ Both of them would attract people who either didn't have much to lose, or were oblivious about what they had to lose, and had a resilience towards failure. I mean, it's amazing, the number of people in Silicon Valley who have completely failed at numbers of things! They just get up and keep‌ trying and have a kind of real obliviousness to social norms. It's pretty clear they are very much interested in making a mark and making their fortunes themselves. So there's at least a sort of shallow comparison, there are some certain similarities. I don't think this is entirely flattering to either group. It's absolutely true that those silver miners in Bolivia, and in northern‌ Mexico, created to a large extent, the modern world. But it's also true that they created these cesspools of violence and exploitation that had consequences we're still living with today. So you have to kind of take the bitter with the sweet. And I think that's true of Silicon Valley and its products *chuckles* I use them every day, and I curse them every day.Dwarkesh Patel   Right.Charles C. Mann   I want to give you an example. The internet has made it possible for me to do something like write a Twitter thread, get millions of people to read it, and have a discussion that's really amazing at the same time. Yet today, The Washington Post has an article about how every book in Texas (it's one of the states) a child checks out of the school library goes into a central state databank. They can see and look for patterns of people taking out “bad books” and this sort of stuff. And I think “whoa, that's really bad! That's not so good.” It's really the same technology that brings this dissemination and collection of vast amounts of information with relative ease. So with all these things, you take the bitter with the sweet. Technological Stupidity in the New WorldDwarkesh Patel   I want to ask you again about contingency because there are so many other examples where things you thought would be universal actually don't turn out to be. I think you talked about how the natives had different forms of metallurgy, with gold and copper, but then they didn't do iron or steel. You would think that given their “warring nature”, iron would be such a huge help. There's a clear incentive to build it. Millions of people living there could have built or developed this technology. Same with the steel, same with the wheel. What's the explanation for why these things you think anybody would have come up with didn't happen?Charles C. Mann   I know. It's just amazing to me! I don't know. This is one of those things I think about all the time. A few weeks ago, it rained, and I went out to walk the dog. I'm always amazed that there are literal glistening drops of water on the crabgrass and when you pick it up, sometimes there are little holes eaten by insects in the crabgrass. Every now and then, if you look carefully, you'll see a drop of water in one of those holes and it forms a lens. And you can look through it! You can see that it's not a very powerful lens by any means, but you can see that things are magnified. So you think “How long has there been crabgrass? Or leaves? And water?”  Just forever! We've had glass forever! So how is it that we had to wait for whoever it was to create lenses? I just don't get it. In book 1491, I mentioned the moldboard plow, which is the one with a curving blade that allows you to go through the soil much more easily. It was invented in China thousands of years ago, but not around in Europe until the 1400s. Like, come on, guys! What was it? And so, you know, there's this mysterious sort of mass stupidity. One of the wonderful things about globalization and trade and contact is that maybe not everybody is as blind as you and you can learn from them. I mean, that's the most wonderful thing about trade. So in the case of the wheel, the more amazing thing is that in Mesoamerica, they had the wheel on child's toys. Why didn't they develop it? The best explanation I can get is they didn't have domestic animals. A cart then would have to be pulled by people. That would imply that to make the cart work, you'd have to cut a really good road. Whereas they had these travois, which are these things that you hold and they have these skids that are shaped kind of like an upside-down V. You can drag them across rough ground, you don't need a road for them. That's what people used in the Great Plains and so forth. So you look at this, and you think “maybe this was the ultimate way to save labor. I mean, this was good enough. And you didn't have to build and maintain these roads to make this work”  so maybe it was rational or just maybe they're just blinkered. I don't know. As for assembly with steel, I think there's some values involved in that. I don't know if you've ever seen one of those things they had in Mesoamerica called Macuahuitl. They're wooden clubs with obsidian blades on them and they are sharp as hell. You don't run your finger along the edge because they just slice it open. An obsidian blade is pretty much sharper than any iron or steel blade and it doesn't rust. Nice. But it's much more brittle. So okay, they're there, and the Spaniards were really afraid of them. Because a single blow from these heavy sharp blades could kill a horse. They saw people whack off the head of a horse carrying a big strong guy with a single blow! So they're really dangerous, but they're not long-lasting. Part of the deal was that the values around conflict were different in the sense that conflict in Mesoamerica wasn't a matter of sending out foot soldiers in grunts, it was a chance for soldiers to get individual glory and prestige. This was associated with having these very elaborately beautiful weapons that you killed people with. So maybe not having steel worked better for their values and what they were trying to do at war. That would've lasted for years and I mean, that's just a guess. But you can imagine a scenario where they're not just blinkered but instead expressive on the basis of their different values. This is hugely speculative. There's a wonderful book by Ross Hassig about old Aztec warfare. It's an amazing book which is about the military history of The Aztecs and it's really quite interesting. He talks about this a little bit but he finally just says we don't know why they didn't develop all these technologies, but this worked for them.Dwarkesh Patel   Interesting. Yeah, it's kind of similar to China not developing gunpowder into an actual ballistic material––Charles C. Mann   Or Japan giving up the gun! They actually banned guns during the Edo period. The Portuguese introduced guns and the Japanese used them, and they said “Ahhh nope! Don't want them.” and they banned them. This turned out to be a terrible idea when Perry came in the 1860s. But for a long time, supposedly under the Edo period, Japan had the longest period of any nation ever without a foreign war. Dwarkesh Patel   Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, it's concerning when you think the lack of war might make you vulnerable in certain ways. Charles C. Mann   Yeah, that's a depressing thought.Religious DemoralizationDwarkesh Patel   Right. In Fukuyama's The End of History, he's obviously arguing that liberal democracy will be the final form of government everywhere. But there's this point he makes at the end where he's like, “Yeah, but maybe we need a small war every 50 years or so just to make sure people remember how bad it can get and how to deal with it.” Anyway, when the epidemic started in the New World, surely the Indians must have had some story or superstitious explanation–– some way of explaining what was happening. What was it?Charles C. Mann   You have to remember, the germ theory of disease didn't exist at the time. So neither the Spaniards, or the English, or the native people, had a clear idea of what was going on. In fact, both of them thought of it as essentially a spiritual event, a religious event. You went into areas that were bad, and the air was bad. That was malaria, right? That was an example. To them, it was God that was in control of the whole business. There's a line from my distant ancestor––the Governor Bradford of Plymouth Colony, who's my umpteenth, umpteenth grandfather, that's how waspy I am, he's actually my ancestor––about how God saw fit to clear the natives for us. So they see all of this in really religious terms, and more or less native people did too! So they thought over and over again that “we must have done something bad for this to have happened.” And that's a very powerful demoralizing thing. Your God either punished you or failed you. And this was it. This is one of the reasons that Christianity was able to make inroads. People thought “Their god is coming in and they seem to be less harmed by these diseases than people with our God.” Now, both of them are completely misinterpreting what's going on! But if you have that kind of spiritual explanation, it makes sense for you to say, “Well, maybe I should hit up their God.”Critiques of Civilization Collapse TheoriesDwarkesh Patel   Yeah, super fascinating. There's been a lot of books written in the last few decades about why civilizations collapse. There's Joseph Tainter's book, there's Jared Diamond's book. Do you feel like any of them actually do a good job of explaining how these different Indian societies collapsed over time?Charles C. Mann   No. Well not the ones that I've read. And there are two reasons for that. One is that it's not really a mystery. If you have a society that's epidemiologically naive, and smallpox sweeps in and kills 30% of you, measles kills 10% of you, and this all happens in a short period of time, that's really tough! I mean COVID killed one million people in the United States. That's 1/330th of the population. And it wasn't even particularly the most economically vital part of the population. It wasn't kids, it was elderly people like my aunt–– I hope I'm not sounding callous when I'm describing it like a demographer. Because I don't mean it that way. But it caused enormous economic damage and social conflict and so forth. Now, imagine something that's 30 or 40 times worse than that, and you have no explanation for it at all. It's kind of not a surprise to me that this is a super challenge. What's actually amazing is the number of nations that survived and came up with ways to deal with this incredible loss.That relates to the second issue, which is that it's sort of weird to talk about collapse in the ways that they sometimes do. Like both of them talk about the Mayan collapse. But there are 30 million Mayan people still there. They were never really conquered by the Spaniards. The Spaniards were still waging giant wars in Yucatan in the 1590s. In the early 21st century, I went with my son to Chiapas, which is the southernmost exit province. And that is where the Commandante Cero and the rebellions were going on. We were looking at some Mayan ruins, and they were too beautiful, and I stayed too long, and we were driving back through the night on these terrible roads. And we got stopped by some of these guys with guns. I was like, “Oh God, not only have I got myself into this, I got my son into this.” And the guy comes and looks at us and says, “Who are you?” And I say that we're American tourists. And he just gets this disgusted look, and he says, “Go on.” And you know, the journalist in me takes over and I ask, “What do you mean, just go on?” And he says, “We're hunting for Mexicans.” And as I'm driving I'm like “Wait a minute, I'm in Mexico.” And that those were Mayans. All those guys were Maya people still fighting against the Spaniards. So it's kind of funny to say that their society collapsed when there are Mayan radio stations, there are Maya schools, and they're speaking Mayan in their home. It's true, they don't have giant castles anymore. But, it's odd to think of that as collapse. They seem like highly successful people who have dealt pretty well with a lot of foreign incursions. So there's this whole aspect of “What do you mean collapse?” And you see that in Against the Grain, the James Scott book, where you think, “What do you mean barbarians?” If you're an average Maya person, working as a farmer under the purview of these elites in the big cities probably wasn't all that great. So after the collapse, you're probably better off. So all of that I feel is important in this discussion of collapse. I think it's hard to point to collapses that either have very clear exterior causes or are really collapses of the environment. Particularly the environmental sort that are pictured in books like Diamond has, where he talks about Easter Island. The striking thing about that is we know pretty much what happened to all those trees. Easter Island is this little speck of land, in the middle of the ocean, and Dutch guys come there and it's the only wood around for forever, so they cut down all the trees to use it for boat repair, ship repair, and they enslave most of the people who are living there. And we know pretty much what happened. There's no mystery about it.Virginia Company + HubrisDwarkesh Patel   Why did the British government and the king keep subsidizing and giving sanctions to the Virginia Company, even after it was clear that this is not especially profitable and half the people that go die? Why didn't they just stop?Charles C. Mann   That's a really good question. It's a super good question. I don't really know if we have a satisfactory answer, because it was so stupid for them to keep doing that. It was such a loss for so long. So you have to say, they were thinking, not purely economically. Part of it is that the backers of the Virginia Company, in sort of classic VC style, when things were going bad, they lied about it. They're burning through their cash, they did these rosy presentations, and they said, “It's gonna be great! We just need this extra money.” Kind of the way that Uber did. There's this tremendous burn rate and now the company says you're in tremendous trouble because it turns out that it's really expensive to provide all these calves and do all this stuff. The cheaper prices that made people like me really happy about it are vanishing. So, you know, I think future business studies will look at those rosy presentations and see that they have a kind of analogy to the ones that were done with the Virginia Company. A second thing is that there was this dog-headed belief kind of based on the inability to understand longitude and so forth, that the Americas were far narrower than they actually are. I reproduced this in 1493. There were all kinds of maps in Britain at the time showing these little skinny Philippines-like islands. So there's the thought that you just go up the Chesapeake, go a couple 100 miles, and you're gonna get to the Pacific into China. So there's this constant searching for a passage to China through this thought to be very narrow path. Sir Francis Drake and some other people had shown that there was a West Coast so they thought the whole thing was this narrow, Panama-like landform. So there's this geographical confusion. Finally, there's the fact that the Spaniards had found all this gold and silver, which is an ideal commodity, because it's not perishable: it's small, you can put it on your ship and bring it back, and it's just great in every way. It's money, essentially. Basically, you dig up money in the hills and there's this long-standing belief that there's got to be more of that in the Americas, we just need to find out where. So there's always that hope. Lastly, there's the Imperial bragging rights. You know, we can't be the only guys with a colony. You see that later in the 19th century when Germany became a nation and one of the first things the Dutch said was “Let's look for pieces of Africa that the rest of Europe hasn't claimed,” and they set up their own mini colonial empire. So there's this kind of “Keeping Up with the Joneses” aspect, it just seems to be sort of deep in the European ruling class. So then you got to have an empire that in this weird way, seems very culturally part of it. I guess it's the same for many other places. As soon as you feel like you have a state together, you want to index other things. You see that over and over again, all over the world. So that's part of it. All those things, I think, contributed to this. Outright lying, this delusion, other various delusions, plus hubris.Dwarkesh Patel   It seems that colonial envy has today probably spread to China. I don't know too much about it, but I hear that the Silk Road stuff they're doing is not especially economically wise. Is this kind of like when you have the impulse where if you're a nation trying to rise, you have that “I gotta go here, I gotta go over there––Charles C. Mann   Yeah and “Show what a big guy I am. Yeah,––China's Silver TradeDwarkesh Patel   Exactly. So speaking of China, I want to ask you about the silver trade. Excuse another tortured analogy, but when I was reading that chapter where you're describing how the Spanish silver was ending up with China and how the Ming Dynasty caused too much inflation. They needed more reliable mediums of exchange, so they had to give up real goods from China, just in order to get silver, which is just a medium of exchange––but it's not creating more apples, right? I was thinking about how this sounds a bit like Bitcoin today, (obviously to a much smaller magnitude) but in the sense that you're using up goods. It's a small amount of electricity, all things considered, but you're having to use up real energy in order to construct this medium of exchange. Maybe somebody can claim that this is necessary because of inflation or some other policy mistake and you can compare it to the Ming Dynasty. But what do you think about this analogy? Is there a similar situation where real goods are being exchanged for just a medium of exchange?Charles C. Mann   That's really interesting. I mean, on some level, that's the way money works, right? I go into a store, like a Starbucks and I buy a coffee, then I hand them a piece of paper with some drawings on it, and they hand me an actual coffee in return for a piece of paper. So the mysteriousness of money is kind of amazing. History is of course replete with examples of things that people took very seriously as money. Things that to us seem very silly like the cowry shell or in the island of Yap where they had giant stones! Those were money and nobody ever carried them around. You transferred the ownership of the stone from one person to another person to buy something. I would get some coconuts or gourds or whatever, and now you own that stone on the hill. So there's a tremendous sort of mysteriousness about the human willingness to assign value to arbitrary things such as (in Bitcoin's case) strings of zeros and ones. That part of it makes sense to me. What's extraordinary is when the effort to create a medium of exchange ends up costing you significantly–– which is what you're talking about in China where people had a medium of exchange, but they had to work hugely to get that money. I don't have to work hugely to get a $1 bill, right? It's not like I'm cutting down a tree and smashing the papers to pulp and printing. But you're right, that's what they're kind of doing in China. And that's, to a lesser extent, what you're doing in Bitcoin. So I hadn't thought about this, but Bitcoin in this case is using computer cycles and energy. To me, it's absolutely extraordinary the degree to which people who are Bitcoin miners are willing to upend their lives to get cheap energy. A guy I know is talking about setting up small nuclear plants as part of his idea for climate change and he wants to set them up in really weird remote areas. And I was asking “Well who would be your customers?” and he says Bitcoin people would move to these nowhere places so they could have these pocket nukes to privately supply their Bitcoin habits. And that's really crazy! To completely upend your life to create something that you hope is a medium of exchange that will allow you to buy the things that you're giving up. So there's a kind of funny aspect to this. That was partly what was happening in China. Unfortunately, China's very large, so they were able to send off all this stuff to Mexico so that they could get the silver to pay their taxes, but it definitely weakened the country.Wizards vs. ProphetsDwarkesh Patel   Yeah, and that story you were talking about, El Salvador actually tried it. They were trying to set up a Bitcoin city next to this volcano and use the geothermal energy from the volcano to incentivize people to come there and mine cheap Bitcoin. Staying on the theme of China, do you think the prophets were more correct, or the wizards were more correct for that given time period? Because we have the introduction of potato, corn, maize, sweet potatoes, and this drastically increases the population until it reaches a carrying capacity. Obviously, what follows is the other kinds of ecological problems this causes and you describe these in the book. Is this evidence of the wizard worldview that potatoes appear and populations balloon? Or are the prophets like “No, no, carrying capacity will catch up to us eventually.”Charles C. Mann   Okay, so let me interject here. For those members of your audience who don't know what we're talking about. I wrote this book, The Wizard and the Prophet. And it's about these two camps that have been around for a long time who have differing views regarding how we think about energy resources, the environment, and all those issues. The wizards, that's my name for them––Stuart Brand called them druids and, in fact, originally, the title was going to involve the word druid but my editor said, “Nobody knows what a Druid is” so I changed it into wizards–– and anyway the wizards would say that science and technology properly applied can allow you to produce your way out of these environmental dilemmas. You turn on the science machine, essentially, and then we can escape these kinds of dilemmas. The prophets say “No. Natural systems are governed by laws and there's an inherent carrying capacity or limit or planetary boundary.” there are a bunch of different names for them that say you can't do more than so much.So what happened in China is that European crops came over. One of China's basic geographical conditions is that it's 20% of the Earth's habitable surface area, or it has 20% of the world's population, but only has seven or 8% of the world's above-ground freshwater. There are no big giant lakes like we have in the Great Lakes. And there are only a couple of big rivers, the Yangtze and the Yellow River. The main staple crop in China has to be grown in swimming pools, and that's you know, rice. So there's this paradox, which is “How do you keep people fed with rice in a country that has very little water?” If you want a shorthand history of China, that's it. So prophets believe that there are these planetary boundaries. In history, these are typically called Malthusian Limits after Malthus and the question is: With the available technology at a certain time, how many people can you feed before there's misery?The great thing about history is it provides evidence for both sides. Because in the short run, what happened when American crops came in is that the potato, sweet potato, and maize corn were the first staple crops that were dryland crops that could be grown in the western half of China, which is very, very dry and hot and mountainous with very little water. Population soars immediately afterward, but so does social unrest, misery, and so forth. In the long run, that becomes adaptable when China becomes a wealthy and powerful nation. In the short run, which is not so short (it's a couple of centuries), it really causes tremendous chaos and suffering. So, this provides evidence for both sides. One increases human capacity, and the second unquestionably increases human numbers and that leads to tremendous erosion, land degradation, and human suffering.Dwarkesh Patel   Yeah, that's a thick coin with two sides. By the way, I realized I haven't gotten to all the Wizard and Prophet questions, and there are a lot of them. So I––Charles C. Mann   I certainly have time! I'm enjoying the conversation. One of the weird things about podcasts is that, as far as I can tell, the average podcast interviewer is far more knowledgeable and thoughtful than the average sort of mainstream journalist interviewer and I just find that amazing. I don't understand it. So I think you guys should be hired. You know, they should make you switch roles or something.Dwarkesh Patel   Yeah, maybe. Charles C. Mann   It's a pleasure to be asked these interesting questions about subjects I find fascinating.Dwarkesh Patel   Oh, it's my pleasure to get to talk to you and to get to ask these questions. So let me ask about the Wizard and the Prophet. I just interviewed WIll McCaskill, and we were talking about what ends up mattering most in history. I asked him about Norman Borlaug and said that he's saved a billion lives. But then McCaskill pointed out, “Well, that's an exceptional result” and he doesn't think the technology is that contingent. So if Borlaug hadn't existed, somebody else would have discovered what he discovered about short wheat stalks anyways. So counterfactually, in a world where Ebola doesn't exist, it's not like a billion people die, maybe a couple million more die until the next guy comes around. That was his view. Do you agree? What is your response?Charles C. Mann   To some extent, I agree. It's very likely that in the absence of one scientist, some other scientist would have discovered this, and I mentioned in the book, in fact, that there's a guy named Swaminathan, a remarkable Indian scientist, who's a step behind him and did much of the same work. At the same time, the individual qualities of Borlaug are really quite remarkable. The insane amount of work and dedication that he did.. it's really hard to imagine. The fact is that he was going against many of the breeding plant breeding dogmas of his day, that all matters! His insistence on feeding the poor… he did remarkable things. Yes, I think some of those same things would have been discovered but it would have been a huge deal if it had taken 20 years later. I mean, that would have been a lot of people who would have been hurt in the interim! Because at the same time, things like the end of colonialism, the discovery of antibiotics, and so forth, were leading to a real population rise, and the amount of human misery that would have occurred, it's really frightening to think about. So, in some sense, I think he's (Will McCaskill) right. But I wouldn't be so glib about those couple of million people.Dwarkesh Patel   Yeah. And another thing you might be concerned about is that given the hostile attitude that people had towards the green revolution right after, if the actual implementation of these different strains of biochar sent in India, if that hadn't been delayed, it's not that weird to imagine a scenario where the governments there are just totally won over by the prophets and they decide to not implant this technology at all. If you think about what happened to nuclear power in the 70s, in many different countries, maybe something similar could have happened to the Green Revolution. So it's important to beat the Prophet. Maybe that's not the correct way to say it. But one way you could put it is: It's important to beat the prophets before the policies are passed. You have to get a good bit of technology in there.Charles C. Mann   This is just my personal opinion, but you want to listen to the prophets about what the problems are. They're incredible at diagnosing problems, and very frequently, they're right about those things. The social issues about the Green Revolution… they were dead right, they were completely right. I don't know if you then adopt their solutions. It's a little bit like how I feel about my editors–– my editors will often point out problems and I almost never agree with their solutions. The fact is that Borlaug did develop this wheat that came into India, but it probably wouldn't have been nearly as successful if Swaminathan hadn't changed that wheat to make it more acceptable to the culture of India. That was one of the most important parts for me in this book. When I went to Tamil Nadu, I listened to this and I thought, “Oh! I never heard about this part where they took Mexican wheat, and they made it into Indian wheat.” You know, I don't even know if Borlaug ever knew or really grasped that they really had done that! By the way, a person for you to interview is Marci Baranski–– she's got a forthcoming book about the history of the Green Revolution and she sounds great. I'm really looking forward to reading it. So here's a plug for her.In Defense of Regulatory DelaysDwarkesh Patel   So if we applied that particular story to today, let's say that we had regulatory agencies like the FDA back then that were as powerful back then as they are now. Do you think it's possible that these new advances would have just dithered in some approval process that took years or decades to complete? If you just backtest our current process for implementing technological solutions, are you concerned that something like the green revolution could not have happened or that it would have taken way too long or something?Charles C. Mann   It's possible. Bureaucracies can always go rogue, and the government is faced with this kind of impossible problem. There's a current big political argument about whether former President Trump should have taken these top-secret documents to his house in Florida and done whatever he wanted to? Just for the moment, let's accept the argument that these were like super secret toxic documents and should not have been in a basement. Let's just say that's true. Whatever the President says is declassified is declassified. Let us say that's true.  Obviously, that would be bad. You would not want to have that kind of informal process because you can imagine all kinds of things–– you wouldn't want to have that kind of informal process in place. But nobody has ever imagined that you would do that because it's sort of nutty in that scenario.Now say you write a law and you create a bureaucracy for declassification and immediately add more delay, you make things harder, you add in the problems of the bureaucrats getting too much power, you know–– all the things that you do. So you have this problem with the government, which is that people occasionally do things that you would never imagine. It's completely screwy. So you put in regulatory mechanisms to stop them from doing that and that impedes everybody else. In the case of the FDA, it was founded in the 30 when some person produced this thing called elixir sulfonamides. They killed hundreds of people! It was a flat-out poison! And, you know, hundreds of people died. You think like who would do that? But somebody did that. So they created this entire review mechanism to make sure it never happened again, which introduced delay, and then something was solidified. Which they did start here because the people who invented that didn't even do the most cursory kind of check. So you have this constant problem. I'm sympathetic to the dilemma faced by the government here in which you either let through really bad things done by occasional people, or you screw up everything for everybody else. I was tracing it crudely, but I think you see the trade-off. So the question is, how well can you manage this trade-off? I would argue that sometimes it's well managed. It's kind of remarkable that we got vaccines produced by an entirely new mechanism, in record time, and they passed pretty rigorous safety reviews and were given to millions and millions and millions of people with very, very few negative effects. I mean, that's a real regulatory triumph there, right?So that would be the counter-example: you have this new thing that you can feed people and so forth. They let it through very quickly. On the other hand, you have things like genetically modified salmon and trees, which as far as I can tell, especially for the chestnuts, they've made extraordinary efforts to test. I'm sure that those are going to be in regulatory hell for years to come. *chuckles* You know, I just feel that there's this great problem. These flaws that you identified, I would like to back off and say that this is a problem sort of inherent to government. They're always protecting us against the edge case. The edge case sets the rules, and that ends up, unless you're very careful, making it very difficult for everybody else.Dwarkesh Patel   Yeah. And the vaccines are an interesting example here. Because one of the things you talked about in the book–– one of the possible solutions to climate change is that you can have some kind of geoengineering. Right? I think you mentioned in the book that as long as even one country tries this, then they can effectively (for relatively modest amounts of money), change the atmosphere. But then I look at the failure of every government to approve human challenge trials. This is something that seems like an obvious thing to do and we would have potentially saved hundreds of thousands of lives during COVID by speeding up the vaccine approval. So I wonder, maybe the international collaboration is strong enough that something like geoengineering actually couldn't happen because something like human challenge trials didn't happen.Geoengineering Charles C. Mann   So let me give a plug here for a fun novel by my friend, Neal Stephenson, called Termination Shock. Which is about some rich person just doing it. Just doing geoengineering. The fact is that it's actually not actually against the law to fire off rockets into the stratosphere. In his case, it's a giant gun that shoots shells full of sulfur into the upper atmosphere. So I guess the question is, what timescale do you think is appropriate for all this? I feel quite confident that there will be geoengineering trials within the next 10 years. Is that fast enough? That's a real judgment call. I think people like David Keith and the other advocates for geoengineering would have said it should have happened already and that it's way, way too slow. People who are super anxious about moral hazard and precautionary principles say that that's way, way too fast. So you have these different constituencies. It's hard for me to think off the top of my head of an example where these regulatory agencies have actually totally throttled something in a long-lasting way as opposed to delaying it for 10 years. I don't mean to imply that 10 years is nothing. But it's really killing off something. Is there an example you can think of?Dwarkesh Patel   Well, it's very dependent on where you think it would have been otherwise, like people say maybe it was just bound to be the state. Charles C. Mann   I think that was a very successful case of regulatory capture, in which the proponents of the technology successfully created this crazy…. One of the weird things I really wanted to explain about nuclear stuff is not actually in the book.

One of the worst natural disasters of the 20th century happened in 1990, when cyclone struck the most densely populated coastline on Earth in today's Bangladesh. Over the course of just a few hours, the Great Bhola Cyclone would kill 500,000 people and begin a chain reaction of turmoil, genocide, war, and a U.S-Soviet standoff. The storm formed on warm ocean currents of the Indian Ocean. By the time it made landfall, it was about the size of Texas, creating a 20-foot storm surge. Survivors had to climb to the tops of balm trees, as the deluge filled apartments to the second story. But the worst was yet to come. The cyclone caused a domino effect of cascading catastrophes: flipping a democratic election in the country of Pakistan, which led to a genocide of 3 million Bengalis, a civil war, and all the way up to a nuclear brinksmanship between the American and Soviet navies in which the two nuclear superpowers were an hour away from mutually-assured destruction. In this episode we are going to explore how revolutions are not always man-made affairs, but often in response to natural disasters. We are joined by Scott Carney and Jason Miklian, authors of The Vortex: A True Story of History's Deadliest Storm, an Unspeakable War, and Liberation. We observe that seemingly unrelated small events can snowball not just into national revolutions but international ones or even global war (not least with the parallels to Ukraine today).

India is in bad shape. Bad economics is one reason why. Economists Rajeswari Sengupta and Shrayana Bhattacharya join Amit Varma in episode 274 of The Seen and the Unseen to take stock of the mess. You don't like dissent? Too bad. We're Bongs, and you cannot shut us up. Also check out: 1. Shrayana Bhattacharya on Twitter, Instagram and Google Scholar. 2. Rajeswari Sengupta on Google Scholar and her own site. 3. Demystifying GDP -- Episode 130 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Rajeswari Sengupta). 4. Twelve Dream Reforms -- Episode 138 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shruti Rajagopalan, Rajeswari Sengupta & Vivek Kaul). 5. The Loneliness of the Indian Woman -- Episode 259 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shrayana Bhattacharya). 6. Desperately Seeking Shah Rukh -- Shrayana Bhattacharya. 7. The Importance of the 1991 Reforms — Episode 237 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shruti Rajagopalan and Ajay Shah). 8. India's Lost Decade — Episode 116 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Puja Mehra). 9. The Lost Decade — Puja Mehra. 10. The Art and Science of Economic Policy — Episode 154 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Vijay Kelkar & Ajay Shah). 11. Rukmini Sees India's Multitudes -- Episode 261 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Rukmini S). 12. The State of Our Economy (Nov 2021) -- Episode 252 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Puja Mehra and Mohit Satyanand.) 13. Taking Stock of Our Economy (May 2021) — Episode 227 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ila Patnaik). 14. Two Economic Crises (2008 & 2019) — Episode 135 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Mohit Satynanand). 15. The Indian Economy in 2019 — Episode 153 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Vivek Kaul). 16. Episodes of The Seen and the Unseen with Ajay Shah (in reverse chronological order): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 17. Everything That Was Broken -- Mary Oliver (from Felicity). 18. I Boiled My Buttocks for a Week -- Amit Varma on how we normalize everything. 19. Dekalog -- Krzysztof Kieślowski. 20. What the Economy Needs Now -- Various authors. 21. Beware of the Useful Idiots -- Amit Varma. 22. Episodes of The Seen and the Unseen on the creator ecosystem with Roshan Abbas, Varun Duggirala, Neelesh Misra, Snehal Pradhan, Chuck Gopal, Nishant Jain and Deepak Shenoy. 23. The Anti-Defection Law — Episode 13 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Barun Mitra). 24. Our Parliament and Our Democracy -- Episode 253 of The Seen and the Unseen (w MR Madhavan). 25. Urban Governance in India -- Episode 31 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shruti Rajagopalan). 26. Emergent Ventures. 27. India's Problem is Poverty, Not Inequality -- Amit Varma. 28. On Inequality -- Harry Frankfurt. 29. We Must Save Our Farmers — Amit Varma. 30. Episodes of The Seen and the Unseen on agriculture (in reverse chronological order): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 31. Intent to Implementation : Tracking India's Social Protection Response to COVID-19 -- Shrayana Bhattacharya and Sutirtha Sinha Roy. 32. On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. 33. Modi's Lost Opportunity — Episode 119 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Salman Soz). 34. Most of Amit Varma's writing on DeMon, collected in one Twitter thread. 35. What a Long Strange Trip It's Been — Episode 188 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Arvind Subramanian). 36. The Median Voter Theorem. 37. The 'bloated and grotesque' tweet by @mrjohndarby. 38. ASER, CMIE and SWAN. 39. The Billion Prices Project. 40. Pramit Bhattacharya Believes in Just One Ism — Episode 256 of The Seen and the Unseen. 41. In Bollywood, women get screen time but very little talk time -- Mohua Das. 42. A Woman, Thinking -- Paromita Vohra. 43. Lost in the Shallows -- Amit Varma on Dear Zindagi. 44. The Life and Times of Mrinal Pande -- Episode 263 of The Seen and the Unseen. 45. Mrinal Pande's pieces for Pragati on women in Indian agriculture: 1, 2. This episode is sponsored by CTQ Compounds. Check out The Daily Reader and FutureStack. Use the code UNSEEN for Rs 2500 off. Check out Amit's online course, The Art of Clear Writing. And subscribe to The India Uncut Newsletter. It's free!