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Host Christine Lee breaks down the latest news in the crypto industry after incoming SEC Chair Paul Atkins faced the hot seat at his confirmation hearing.SEC Chair Paul Atkins faced the hot seat at his confirmation hearing before Senate lawmakers Thursday, XRP teams up with Chipper Cash to expand cross border payments in Africa, and SEI Foundation weighs buying 23andMe. CoinDesk's Christine Lee hosts "CoinDesk Daily."-Friends, DeFi is having a moment — Uniswap Labs' web app and wallet connect you to the excitement. Swapping and bridging are simple, low cost, and lightning fast across 13 chains, including Base, Arbitrum and Unichain, the new Layer 2 network designed for DeFi.Thanks to deep liquidity on Uniswap Protocols, you get minimal price impact on every trade, now with even greater efficiency through Uniswap v4.Swap, send, on-ramp, off-ramp, and bridge into a bright future — get started at uniswap.org.-This episode was hosted by Christine Lee. “CoinDesk Daily” is produced by Christine Lee and edited by Victor Chen.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Overview: Today, we're going to explore PiggyVest - the Nigerian savings and investment platform. We'll discuss the story across the following areas: African Banking & Neobank context PiggyVest's early history Product & monetization strategy Competitive positioning & potential exit options Overall outlook This episode was recorded on Oct 30, 2024 Companies discussed: PiggyVest, Chipper Cash, Kuda Bank, Paystack, Flutterwave, FairMoney, Paystack, Brass, Cowrywise, Carbon, Chipper Cash, Interswitch, GTBank, Sterling Bank & UBA. Business concepts discussed: Neobank / Challenger bank / digital bank strategy, remittances Neobank monetization & Consumer Lending, consumer FinTech monetization strategy, consumer lending, retail banking strategy, customer segmentation strategy & low-end disruption Conversation highlights: (00:30) - Introduction (05:00) - African Banking & Neobank context (25:30) - Piggyvest's Founding Story (40:15) - Fundraising and Growth (52:30) - Geographical Expansion and Partnerships (01:18:52) - Product and Monetization strategy (01:35:20) - Competition and options for exit (01:54:35) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (02:05:15) - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (02:15:45) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Sisqo - Got to Get it video - Insane shit. Sisqo singing and dancing his heart out. So dope. Recommendation: Rob Berger's Personal Finance YouTube channel Recommendation: The Patriarch: The Remarkable Life and Turbulent Times of Joseph P. Kennedy. Excellent book. A little bit of everything, entrepreneurship - history, politics, family life & hollywood. Small win: I spent the week in Cusco & Lima, it was magical and fun. Some sand, some llamas, lots of dancing. Epic shit Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: BBC Radio 4 - In Our Time Podcast & Active - Asake Small win: Running 25 miles a week Other content: These Nigerian universities produced the most startup founders - Nairametrics Listeners: We'd love to hear from you. Email info@afrobility.com with feedback! Founders & Operators: We'd love to hear about what you're working on, email us at info@afrobility.com Investors: It would be great to link up with you. Contact us at info@afrobility.com Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes on Afrobility.com
This episode of Power Talks with Suna Ronald features Maurice Mugerwa, a public speaker, growth operations expert, and entrepreneur. Maurice discusses his career journey, including his transitions from Bolt to Chipper Cash and his experience being laid off from Chipper Cash. He also shares his thoughts on faith, trusting the universe, and building a support system. Timestamps to help you navigate the episode: 00:00 - 01:30: Introduction and introductions 01:30 - 03:20: Maurice's background, experience at Bolt, and transition to Chipper Cash 03:20 - 05:33: Similarities and differences between working at Bolt and Chipper Cash 05:33 - 07:17: Maurice's transparency and motivations for sharing his experiences 07:17 - 09:26: Getting laid off from Chipper Cash and the application process 09:26 - 12:00: Maurice's advice on networking and job applications 12:00 - 14:11: Power Talks social media and finding talent through pitches 14:11 - 16:32: Signs of a layoff and Maurice's experience being laid off from Chipper Cash 16:32 - 21:09: Maurice's faith, trusting the universe, and support systems 21:09 - 23:37: The importance of the spiritual side of life 23:37 - 24:00: Closing remarks Production Credits Executive Producer: Ssuna Ronald Sound Engineer: Gumisiriza Richard Script Writer: Chinwendu Opara Art Direction: Abdu Latif Okalang Powered By: (No Sponsor/Self funded) Connect via: LinkedIn & Instagram For Inquiries: emailpowertalks@gmail.com
Dan Kimerling, founder and managing partner at Deciens, talks about key principles that shape his current approaches to startup investments. He explains Deciens' strategy of leading financing deals with a concentrated portfolio, allowing for deep partnerships with entrepreneurs. Dan critiques the average venture capital returns and promotes a bold, non-orthodox strategy to achieve exceptional outcomes. He emphasizes the importance of alignment with entrepreneurs and LPs, advocating for a venture capital model that values courage, commitment, and long-term relationships over diversification and transactional interactions.In this episode, you'll learn:[1:48] How growing up in Edison, New Jersey, influenced Dan Kimerling's personal and professional life.[4:07] Deciens' philosophy: Concentrated, bold, partnership-driven investments.[7:42] Founders seek genuine partnerships with VCs.[15:54] Achieving greatness requires personal courage, not group consensus.[18:28] Success in VC means investing in non-consensus deals with a robust framework.[29:28] Strategies for better alignment among VCs, entrepreneurs, and LPs.The non-profit organizations that Dan is passionate about: Albuquerque Community FoundationAbout Dan KimerlingDan Kimerling is the founder and managing partner at Deciens. He is passionate about leading investments in transformative companies at their earliest stages and sits on the board of many Deciens portfolio companies, including Chipper, Therma, and Treasury Prime. He co-founded Standard Treasury, which was acquired by Silicon Valley Bank, where he led API Banking and Global Research. Earlier, he was an analyst at TechCrunch. Dan graduated with honors from the University of Chicago with an A.B. and A.M., studied mathematical finance at Booth, and received several awards. He was named to Forbes' "30 under 30," is a Kauffman Fellow, and is active in the Young Presidents' Organization.About DeciensDeciens is a venture capital firm dedicated to supporting early-stage founders revolutionizing financial services. The firm identifies visionary entrepreneurs at the inception of their journey, offering extensive support beyond funding to realize their visions. Deciens collaborates strategically with industry leaders such as Chipper Cash, Africa's largest fintech; Treasury Prime, a frontrunner in banking-as-a-service; and Therma, an innovator in industrial energy management. Through these partnerships, Deciens champions entrepreneurs driving the digital transformation of traditional institutions.Subscribe to our podcast and stay tuned for our next episode.
Alexa Binns, a seasoned investor and marketer, takes us through her remarkable journey from non-profit roots to establishing herself as a venture capital investor, overseeing her family office alongside her three sisters. Drawing from her dual roles as an angel investor and limited partner, Alexa provides invaluable insights for founders and venture capitalists alike, enriching the conversation with her wealth of experience and perspective.In this episode:[2:03] Alexa's path to venture capital: Discover how Alexa transitioned from her role in a non-profit organization to making her mark in the competitive world of venture capital.[8:26] Three critical aspects that every founder should understand about angel investors to optimize their interactions and avoid common pitfalls.[12:38] The significant impact of new emerging managers on the venture capital landscape and what this means for the industry.[16:40] The "Three S's" – sourcing, selecting, and stewardship – essential criteria for assessing and choosing the best emerging fund managers.[22:33] The current state of investment in female founders: are they receiving the funding they rightfully deserve?[28:11] Swimming with Allocators podcast, where limited partners share their decision-making processes in VC investments.The non-profit organization that Alexa is passionate about: Norman Lear Center USCAbout Alexa BinnsAlexa Binns is a seasoned investor and marketer, known for her acute ability to identify emerging trends and technologies. Over her career, she has risen from associate to partner in venture capital, making significant investments at firms such as Maven, Halogen, and Spacecadet. Some of her notable angel investments include Chipper Cash, Sana Benefits, and The Flex Co.In addition to her investing prowess, Alexa brings a decade of operational experience, having developed both digital and physical products for high-profile clients including Planned Parenthood, MTV, Disney, and Target. She excels in innovative marketing strategies; her accomplishments range from writing a master's thesis on building a brand on YouTube to helping sell the Twitch influencer marketing platform NoScope. She was also nominated for a Mashable Award for her work with Foursquare and pioneered some of the first advertising campaigns on Twitter.Alexa also co-hosts Swimming with Allocators, a venture podcast that offers insights from the limited partner (LP) perspective. Alongside Earnest Sweat, she interviews top allocators and industry leaders weekly, exploring their strategies and perspectives on the next decade of venture capital.Subscribe to our podcast and stay tuned for our next episode.
"It's hard to live in Africa. It's hard to pay your bills. Public transport is hard... And it's hard to run a business in Africa."Alan got a belated Christmas surprise this year – when he found out he'd been named as one of New African Magazine's list of 100 most influential Africans. He's in good company… Senegal's Ousmane Sonko, Nigeria's President Bola Tinubu and Guinea's coup leader and president, Colonel Mamady Doumbouya, are also on the list. But the list isn't just about politics: it also gives a nod to changemakers in business, science, sport - and to those working to improve the environment. So in the first in a series of conversations, Alan speaks today to two young, energetic business leaders who are on the list - and are changing how money is used on the continent. Presenter: Alan Kasujja @kasujja Guests: Coura Sene, West Africa Regional director for Wave and Ham Sirunjogi, Co-Founder & CEO of Chipper Cash
In today's episode, Joshua Benadiva hosts Dan Kimerling, founder and Managing Partner of Deciens, a leading early-stage fintech venture capital firm. Dan shares insights into the fintech industry, emphasizing the importance of timing in entrepreneurship and the need for businesses to have increasing returns and moats as they scale. In this episode you will hear about: - Dan's journey in the fintech industry and the founding and selling of Standard Treasury - The challenges and opportunities within the fintech space - The role of coaching in venture capital and the importance of customer satisfaction in the banking industry About Dan Kimerling: Dan Kimerling is deeply committed to investing in transformative companies at their inception, holding board positions in several Deciens portfolio companies like Chipper, Therma, and Treasury Prime. Before Deciens, he co-founded and led Standard Treasury to its acquisition by Silicon Valley Bank, establishing leading API solutions for the financial services industry. Standard Treasury garnered recognition from American Banker and SWIFT for its innovation. Post-acquisition, Dan headed API Banking and Open Platform at SVB. His early career included a stint at TechCrunch and an educational journey at the University of Chicago, where he achieved honors and won prestigious awards. Dan is recognized by Forbes' "30 under 30," is a Kauffman Fellow, and actively contributes to the University of Chicago's Polsky Council and the Young Presidents' Organization. He enjoys a personal life filled with reading, cooking, biking, and skiing in Chicago and Albuquerque. About Deciens: Founded in 2017 by Dan Kimerling, Deciens Capital is a venture capital firm dedicated to ushering in the next generation of financial services. By focusing exclusively on early-stage investments, Deciens aims to support foundational companies reshaping industries and regions, including significant collaborations with Chipper Cash, Treasury Prime, and Therma. The firm prides itself on being the initial significant investment for companies poised for substantial growth, deep market impact, and the establishment of strong competitive moats in sizable markets. Deciens' portfolio showcases a commitment to groundbreaking fintech ventures such as Treasury Prime, Chipper Cash, and several others, emphasizing its role in the digital transformation of traditional financial institutions. For more FinTech insights, follow us on WFT Medium: medium.com/wharton-fintech WFT Twitter: twitter.com/whartonfintech WFT Instagram: instagram.com/whartonfintech Josh's Twitter: @josh_benadiva Josh's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jbenadiva/
In today's episode, Research Associate Andrew Kim has an exciting conversation with Samee Zahid, the director of engineering at Chipper Cash. We dive into how Chipper Cash aims to revolutionize the financial ecosystem, emphasizing its recently launched product, Chipper ID. Chipper ID is an artificial intelligence-driven know your customer (KYC) verification platform that includes user verification, document verification, government database integration, and watch list screening. We'll talk about why Chipper Cash decided to build its own KYC solution and how it's not only cost-effective but can potentially shape the fintech landscape in Africa. Plus, we explore the intricacies of identity verification, the significance of data security, and their recent partnership with Visa for card issuance. Key Points From This Episode:- Overview of Samee's background- Fintech app Chipper Cash expands with AI-driven KYC platform- How Chipper Cash's KYC platform reduces fintechs' customer acquisition costs significantly- Tackling account fraud in Africa with real-time face-matching technology- Chipper ID pairs on-device liveness checks with server verification for user authenticity- Leveraging synthetic data for testing- Why Chipper ID's focus on proprietary data and human insight remains vital in a rapidly evolving tech industry- Balancing costs and specificity over broad models optimizes tech use- Streamlining document checks and user verification improves fintech security- How Screen Sentinel aids compliance teams in sanction screening and reduces false positives- Integrating payment and ID verification, enabling secure one-click transactions- Chipper's near-term catalysts to focus on
Today's guest is Ham Serunjogi, the Co-founder and CEO of Chipper Cash.In 2021, Chipper raised $150 million Series C extension, valuing the startup at $2 billion, but has since cut its valuation, reportedly by 70 percent, has engaged in three rounds of layoffs, reducing its headcount by nearly 175 from its peak of 450, and has drastically pulled back from its aggressive growth and expansion strategies across the continent.This conversation with Ham comes at an interesting time for Chipper and in the market, in general. Tough macro conditions on the continent, a slowdown of funding, tech layoffs. And at the same time, a lot of new and significant product launches for the company. 00:00 - Intro03:05 - Long-term perspectives & time horizons06:13 - Challenges operating across Africa08:20 - Reflecting on Chipper's growth strategies11:25 - Chipper ID15:40 - Full-stack vs. focus19:40 - Zoona acquisition & agent networks26:04 - What lessons has Ham learned?30:15 - Layoffs31:45 - Capital allocation going forward34:24 - Zepz acquisition?37:07 - More lessons43:39 - What does the future look like for Chipper?
Overview: Today, we're going to explore TymeBank - the South African neobank. We'll discuss the story across the following areas: African & Nigerian banking context TymeBank's launch, early history, growth over time & fundraising Product & monetization strategy Competitive positioning & potential exit options Overall outlook. Companies discussed: TymeBank, African Rainbow Capital (ARC), MTN, Kuda Bank, Chipper Cash, FairMoney, Carbon, Discovery Bank, Branch, Pick N Pay, TakeAlot, Commonwealth Bank of Australia, Bank Zero, Naspers & NuBank Business concepts discussed: International expansion, Startups and Distribution, Deposit banking, International expansion, Data sovereignty, Conversation highlights: (00:30) - TymeBank context (08:15) - Context of African Banking (24:20) - TymeBank founding story (52:20) - Fundraising (55:01) - Growth and geographical expansion (1:20:03) - Product & Monetization Strategy (1:50:08) - Competition and options for Exit (2:00:33) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (2:10:38) - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (2:15:00) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Interested in investing in Africa Tech with Olumide: Read about Adamantium fund & contact me at olumide@afrobility.com. Founders looking for funding: If you're a B2B founder working on Education, Health, Finance or food, please contact me for funding at olumide@afrobility.com Checkout my FIREDOM book = FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) + Freedom = personal finance and financial independence book. Website, Read: Substack Newsletter & Buy: Print, eBook or Audiobook) Recommendation: AI 2041: Ten Visions for Our Future (Kai-Fu Lee): Great book about the potential of AI told across 10 stories Recommendation: Dangote (song by Burna Boy). Incredible song Recommendation: Good Bad Boy (song by Lil Kesh). Catchy and smooth chorus. With a deeper meaning about searching for companionship Small win: I was in NYC book launch for FIREDOM Book launch. Dope. Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Plunder by Brendan Ballou - A book on the excesses of Private Equity. PE is an example of well-intentioned policy having (unintentional?) downstream impact. Recommendation: Business Breakdown Podcast on Mobile Gaming: The uneven distribution of paying customers in mobile gaming reminds me of emerging market telco companies Small win: Quest 3 Headset! VR is coming along nicely. Other content: TymeBank Holdings 2022 Financial Statement & Substack on the history of Tyme Global Listeners: We'd love to hear from you. Email info@afrobility.com with feedback! Founders & Operators: We'd love to hear about what you're working on, email us at info@afrobility.com Investors: It would be great to link up with you. Contact us at info@afrobility.com Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes on Afrobility.com
Overview: Today, we're going to explore Carbon, the credit-led Neobank. We'll discuss the Carbon story across the following areas: African lending & consumer credit Carbon's founding & early history Product & monetization strategy Competitive positioning & potential exit options Overall outlook This episode was recorded on Oct 15, 2023 Companies discussed: Carbon (PayLater, One Credit, OneFi, One Finance), Diamond Bank, Cafe Neo, Kaizen Venture Partners, FairMoney, Branch, Paga, Kuda Bank, GTBank, Access Bank, Chipper Cash, NuBank, Lesaka (NET1 UEPS), Lendable, Interswitch, Visa, RenMoney, Tala & Safaricom (M-Pesa) Business concepts discussed: Smartphone credit assessment, consumer lending, unbanked population, Neobank strategy, Personal Finance OS & Buy Now Pay Later Conversation highlights: (00:48) - Carbon context (08:15) - Consumer lending in Africa and Neobanks (15:32) - Background on African banking and Neobanks (32:02) - Founding story of Carbon & Founders' background (54:04) - Fundraising (1:01:15) - Growth and Geographical Expansion (1:08:03) - Acquisitions and investments (1:15:54) - Team and organisation (1:19:35) - Key metrics (1:40:46) - Product strategy and monetization (2:00:08) - Competition and options for exit (2:10:33 - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (2:20:38) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (2:30:15) - Recommendation and small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Interested in investing in Africa Tech with Olumide: Read about Adamantium fund & contact me at olumide@afrobility.com. Founders looking for funding: If you're a B2B founder working on Education, Health, Finance or food, please contact me for funding at olumide@afrobility.com Checkout my FIREDOM book = FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) + Freedom = personal finance and financial independence book. Website, Read: Substack Newsletter & Buy: Print, eBook or Audiobook) Recommendation: Lil Kesh - Shoki Remix. Song is beyond nice. I probably understand 15% of it. Lil Kesh was 19 years old when the song was released. The power of young people to Incredible things. Wow! Recommendation: Lil Kesh - Don't Call Me (feat. Zinoleesky) [Lyrics Visualiser]. Recommendation: Ruger - Ruger. The song literally starts with “Man, I spit fire…”. How can I not love it? Small win: Switched to Instacart (from Amazon Fresh) for groceries. Not going back Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Fair Isaac Company on Business Breakdowns, MTN on Business Breakdowns Small win: New phone Other content: Building Magic - The Cafe Neo story & Chipper Cash AI Day Listeners: We'd love to hear from you. Email info@afrobility.com with feedback! Founders & Operators: We'd love to hear about what you're working on, email us at info@afrobility.com Investors: It would be great to link up with you. Contact us at info@afrobility.com Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes on Afrobility.com
Overview: Today, we're going to talk about Branch, the FinTech lending company and Neobank. We'll explore the story across the following 5 areas: African lending & consumer credit Branch's founding early history Product & monetization strategy Competitive positioning & potential exit options Overall outlook This episode was recorded on Sep 10, 2023 Companies discussed: Branch, Kiva, Kuda Bank, Chipper Cash, Earnin, Paga, FairMoney, MFS Africa, GTBank, Access Bank, Ecobank, PalmPay, Carbon, PiggyVest, Upstart, Tala, Visa, Mastercard & Safaricom Business concepts discussed: Credit scoring, Smartphone credit assessment, African customer segmentation strategy & low-end disruption, Consumer lending, , unbanked population, smartphone credit assessment, Pan-African Banking Conversation highlights: (01:00) - What Branch is and why we're talking about it (07:40) - Africa consumer credit context and background (19:17:) - Branch International founding (23:31) - Founders' background (39:12) - Fundraising and Growth (51:40) - Geographical expansion (1:02:01) - Acquisitions and Team overview (01:15:14) - Product strategy (1:33:20) - Monetization strategy and Costs (1:41:58) - Competition and options for exit (1:57:08) - Bankole's overall thoughts (2:10:59) - Olumide's overall thoughts (2:30:20) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Interested in investing in Africa Tech with Olumide: Read about Adamantium fund & contact me at olumide@afrobility.com. Founders looking for funding: If you're a B2B founder working on Education, Health, Finance or food, please contact me for funding at olumide@afrobility.com Checkout my FIREDOM book = FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) + Freedom = personal finance and financial independence book. Website, Read: Substack Newsletter & Buy: Print, eBook or Audiobook) Recommendation: Eminem - Rap God (OMFG I'm 12 years late, my mind exploded. WOW!) Recommendation: Can't Hurt Me (David Goggins). Incredible book about challenges David went to from parental abuse, racism to make something of himself. I went through waves of intense emotions while reading the book. At some points, I was crying in pain with David and other times I was in pure shock about what I was listening to. Small win: Hosted FIREDOM book launch event in London. Amazing conversations about life, managing money and growth. Dope shit. Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: American Prometheus by Kai Bird, A/B Testing with Fat Tails & Remember Me - Fireboy DML Small win: Chin-chin from a recent trip to Lagos Other content: Mobile overdraft facility Fuliza outshines Silicon Valley-backed lending apps in Kenya- TechCrunch & Inside Branch's 20 percent interest investment push to beat Nigerian bank offerings - TechCabal Listeners: We'd love to hear from you. Email info@afrobility.com with feedback! Founders & Operators: We'd love to hear about what you're working on, email us at info@afrobility.com Investors: It would be great to link up with you. Contact us at info@afrobility.com Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes on Afrobility.com
In this episode of Investing in Integrity, we spoke with Daniel Kimerling, Managing Partner of Deciens Capital, an early-stage investment fund. Along with being an experienced startup operator, Daniel is also the Co-Founder of Standard Treasury, a Y-Combinator backed startup. Daniel makes an impassioned case for the role of finance & technology (specifically venture capital) in creating opportunity and driving positive innovation – telling stories about how the financing of Genentech enabled the synthesis of insulin, or how fintechs like True Link and Chipper Cash have introduced much-needed financial products to underserved populations. Much of this conversation is also a meditation on the value of liberal arts learning and insatiable curiosity in solving problems. “Investing is the ultimate liberal art,” Daniel says, “because the amount of learning knows no bounds.” Daniel delves into his personal obsession, as he calls it, with, “understanding why people stick with projects that end up being massively successful, even though statistically the odds are massively against them. Daniel and Ross tie together observational insights drawn from Lin Manuel Miranda's Hamilton, to Charlie Munger's idea of “natural drift,” to Rick Rubin's work with Dr. Dre and Johnny Cash. We hope you enjoy this wide-ranging conversation on venture capital, technology, and timeless values like curiosity and perseverance!
Welcome to the first episode of Masters of MAX, where you'll hear from Hasan Luongo, VP of Global Marketing at Chipper Cash. Chipper Cash is a financial technology company serving more than five million customers across the African continent. Their app-only experience enables customers in five African countries, the U.S. and the U.K. to pay bills, make cross-border money transfers, and purchase cryptocurrencies.Hasan is an entrepreneur 1st and foremost, then a Growth and Product leader, and last but never least, a User. And in his conversation with Tom Butta, you'll hear how much weight he places on the user experience, and why Chipper has always been mobile only to support that notion. Trust is everything when it comes to the finance space. And without conventional banking locations that customers are used to, it's a tougher hurdle to climb over. Listen to find out how Hasan relies on transparency and marketing to support Chipper's efforts in earning their users' trust.PS, don't listen to this episode until after you've had your morning coffee, as we cover some of Hasan's favorite blends and regions on the show as well. —Guest BioHasan is an entrepreneur, marketing, and product leader with extensive experience building and scaling high-growth technology companies, marketing, and growth teams. He's a data-informed creative thinker. Hasan cut his teeth in digital marketing as co-founder/CEO of HoodiePeople, an e-commerce retail startup way back in 2006 Currently, Hasan leads Growth & Marketing as VP Global Marketing at Chipper Cash, a pan-African Fintech. Hasan joined Chipper at the pre-seed stage and the company is now at Series C, and valued at $1.25b, with more than 5 million users globally today. Just prior to Chipper, Hasan lead Growth Marketing at Voicea, a B2B SaaS startup that was acquired by Cisco in 2018. Over the last 15 years, he's relentlessly focused on building high growth technology companies including Homejoy, YourMechanic, Fairy, Honey, and TuneUpMedia. These organizations have collectively raised over $800m, launched in 1000's of markets across the US, Africa, and EU, with multiple major exits. Beyond work, Hasan loves coffee, admittedly more than working. If you're interested in finding what he's got brewing today, head over to his personal coffee blog here. —Guest Quote“Trust starts with reliability, right? And when things go wrong, you need to be transparent and get out in front of that as soon as possible. And things do break. That is the nature of the beast.” - Hasan Luongo—Time Stamps *(2:20) A bit about Hasan*(4:53) Digging into Chipper Cash *(6:56) A mobile-first product*(9:15) Enabling fast movement *(10:52) Building customer trust in finance*(14:05) Retaining users and customers*(18:10) Life after the download*(23:15) What's next for Chipper*(26:12) Hasan's advice for other leaders*(27:39) Rapid fire questions—LinksConnect with Hasan Luongo on LinkedInConnect with Tom Butta on LinkedInCheck out the Airship WebsiteLearn more about Chipper Cash
On this episode, originally recorded in Mar 2022, we dive into the backstory of Chipper Cash, at the time, the most valuable startup in Africa recently valued at just over $2 billion. Chipper provides free and instant cross border money transfers, and has grown to serve over 4 million customers, doing 80,000 transactions.█ GuestsHam Serunjogi, Founder & CEO at Chipper Dan Kimerling, Founder & Managing Partner at Deciens (lead investor in Chipper's Seed & Series A)█ Timeline[Intros] - Ham & Dan[Raising] - How Dan & Ham Met[Crisis] - Responding when shut down in their largest market [Team Building] - How Chipper Built a world class legal and ops teams[Roadmap] - How Chipper prioritizes their product roadmap[Org Structure] - How Chipper built a matrixed org[The Future] - Chipper's Long Term Vision[Advice] - Advice for prospective founders
Welcome back to the Alt Goes Mainstream podcast.On today's episode, we have Sheel Mohnot, the co-founder and Partner of FinTech VC fund Better Tomorrow Ventures.Sheel is a career fintech investor and operator. He has built Better Tomorrow Ventures into an active pre-seed and seed stage fintech VC that has grown to over $225M AUM. Prior to founding BTV, he was the GP at 500 FinTech, where he was the first institutional investor in Albert, Kin, Indio, Chipper Cash, Ethic, and others. He was also an early investor in Stripe and Flexport. He also co-founded two fintech startups – FeeFighters, which was acquired by GroupOn, and Innovative Auctions.Sheel and I had a fascinating conversation about the evolution of FinTech, how to build and scale an emerging manager, the challenges of raising a first time fund, and why smaller funds can outperform.We didn't have a chance to discuss the experience of his Taco Bell wedding in the metaverse, but congrats Sheel and Amruta on your marriage and wishing you happiness in both life and the metaverse.Thanks Sheel for coming on the Alt Goes Mainstream podcast to share your wisdom and experiences.
Our guest this week is Fintech expert Alan Tsen, Head of fmX, IAG's corporate accelerator program. Currently in the middle of its fifth season, fmX invites 8 startup companies per cohort to engage in a 12 week program giving participants a unique opportunity to learn how to infiltrate their product successfully into the insurtech ecosystem. Across the entirely free program, participants gain hugely valuable knowledge through training and face to face workshops to learn how to structure and position their businesses while giving them access to internal technical and design outlets to explore insurance use cases. One unique element of fmX is the potential for startups to partner with IAG. With an enviable resume which includes practicing international tax law, a tenure as the GM of Stone & Chalk Melbourne, Chair and board member of Fintech Australia and Director of Revenue for startup Chipper Cash, Alan is also a lover of fine wine, even studying to become a sommelier, and writes a hugely knowledgeable Fintech newsletter Fintech Radar. Quickfire Round Book: Unreasonable Hospitality, Will Guidara Podcast: Got Somme - Aussie wine podcast News Source: Twitter App: Tana, Oura Tech CEO: Andy Grove TV Show: Ru Paul's Drag Race TEDTalk Topic: The State of Fintech in Africa While recruitment for the next season of fmX won't officially kick off until October this year, Alan is always on the lookout for startups with amazing ideas that might fit the fmX mould. Get in touch with Alan alan.tsen@iag.com.au or follow along on Twitter @alantsen.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
On this episode, 'Laolu, Furo, and Nosa consider the recent events in the African Tech Ecosystem - Alerzo's second round of layoffs in seven months and the shutting down of some of their warehouses, Chipper Cash's recent round of layoffs, Silicon Valley Bank's collapse and what it means for businesses.We love hearing your thoughts! Find us on Twitter and Instagram (@openafricapod) and tag us in your conversations. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Overview: Today, we're going to talk about MFS Africa. We'll explore the MFS Africa story across the following 5 areas: African payments context MFS Africa's early history Product & monetization strategy Competitive positioning & potential exit options Overall outlook. This episode was recorded on Jan 29, 2023 Companies discussed: MFS Africa, Safaricom (M-Pesa), Opay, Flutterwave, Paystack, MTN, Airtel, Orange, Chipper Cash, Ecobank, Safaricom, Homesend, TransferTo, MasterCard & Visa Business concepts discussed: Financial interoperability, mobile money (agency banking), banking regulation, acquisition strategy, payment processing, payment gateways & closed-loop payment networks Conversation highlights: (09:50) - Africa payments context and background (20:26) - MFS Africa founding and early history (22:06) - Founder background (31:40) - Fundraising and early growth (38:44) - Partnerships and M&A (1:02:15) - Product Strategy (1:06:30) - Monetization Strategy (1:13:59) - Competition and Options for Exit (1:28:51) - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (1:34:00) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (1:47:00) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Interested in investing in Africa Tech with Olumide: Read about Adamantium fund & contact me at olumide@afrobility.com Founders looking for funding: If you're a B2B founder working on Education, Health, Finance or food, please contact me for funding at olumide@afrobility.com Recommendation: Be Happy 35 Powerful Methods for Personal Growth & Well-Being. Talks about practices for a positive mental health. Fun short read that you can refer to time and time again Small win: Birthday celebrations with friends in Miami, NYC & SF. It was epic! Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Accidental Gods by Anna Della Subin Small win: I read 3 books in January Other content: Afrobility Chipper Cash episode , Inside the MFS Africa acquisition of Beyonic & Follow me on Goodreads Listeners: We'd love to hear from you. Email info@afrobility.com with feedback! Founders & Operators: We'd love to hear about what you're working on, email us at info@afrobility.com Investors: It would be great to link up with you. Contact us at info@afrobility.com Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes on Afrobility.com
Overview: Today, we're going to have a creator roundtable to discuss the African tech ecosystem. We'll discuss the biggest 2022 moments in Africa Tech & our hopes for the tech ecosystem in 2023. This episode was recorded on Dec 10, 2022 Companies discussed: Flutterwave, FTX, 54gene, Swvl, Chipper Cash, TeamApt, QED, Binance, Remitly, Flutterwave & Jumia Business concepts discussed: Economic recessions, fundraising, bootstrapping, Cryptocurrency, M&A, Creator monetization & Pan-African Expansion Conversation highlights: (07:35) - Biggest moments in 2022 in Africa Tech (00:53) - Impact of Recession on Africa Tech (1:00:05) - What we would like to see in Africa Tech 2023 (1:28:00) - Creator Q&A (2:00:24) - Recommendations & Small Wins Olumide: Recommendation: Knives Out 2 (Movie). Excellent and funny sequel :) Win: Opened Fidelity HSA. I had used Vanguard only previously. Fidelity has nice functionality & UX (especially for HSAs) Bankole: Recommendation: Unauthorized Shein boutiques are popping up across Mexico & Co-founding considered harmful Win: Seeing Emeka in person Emeka: Recommendation: Magical Text Expander (tool), Friction (article), Afridigest (newsletter) Win: Finally meeting & taking a picture with the Oga of Ogas, Bankole. Plus: Afridigest crossing 4500 page followers on LinkedIn — help us on the push to 5000! Other content: Why super apps are proliferating across emerging markets, The hierarchy of venture opportunities in emerging markets tin: Recommendation: ChatGPT & the Dissect podcast Small win: My alma mater the University of Michigan beating our rivals Ohio State in football for the second year in a row. Getting to spend a lot of in-person quality time with people in the African tech ecosystem over the past few weeks in Cape Town. Samora: Recommendation: “The Founders Podcast” by David Senra. Michael Jordan The Life - by Roland Lazenby Big Win - Getting my 2nd born daughter. Other content: Amp it Up by Frank Slootman is a great read - Narco Saints on Netflix is superb! Listeners: We'd love to hear from you. Email info@afrobility.com with feedback! Founders & Operators: We'd love to hear about what you're working on, email us at info@afrobility.com Investors: It would be great to link up with you. Contact us at info@afrobility.com
This episode is also available on YouTube - https://youtu.be/Xi1ec1PYKRIToday on the Techpoint Africa Podcast, our reporters discuss the new withdrawal restrictions imposed by the Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN). On Tuesday, December 6, 2022, the CBN issued a new directive to reduce withdrawal at ATMs and PoS terminals to ₦20,000 ($27) per day to further cashless policy. We look at how it will affect citizens, especially those operating in the informal sector.To advertise or promote your brand, visit this link or send an email to business@techpoint.africaTimestamps00:00 - Intro03:12 - Why is CBN doing this04:29 - Inflation or cashless policy: CBN's endgame05:50 - What this means for Nigeria's cash-driven economy08:28 - Who are the biggest winners Useful links CBN reduces withdrawal at ATMs, PoS, to ₦20,000 ($27) per day to further cashless policy 6 ways the CBN’s cash withdrawal limit could benefit Nigeria’s telecom companies, from new revenue streams to increased customer penetration N26.17 Trillion was Unbanked in 2021 Nigeria commissions Omeife, its first humanoid robot FTX-funded Chipper Cash lays off employees one year after raising $150 million FTX marked down Chipper Cash’s $2B valuation to $1.25B After raising $140m+ from 3 funding rounds in 2022, mobility startup, Moove quietly “dismisses” employees This episode was produced by Ogheneruemu Oneyibo and Gracious Sede Email us your feedback at podcast@techpoint.africa. Visit www.techpoint.africa for more stories.Music - Beach by MBB
“If you spend a ton of time cultivating your network, how are you leveraging that work in your current role?” This week's show explores multiple ways to reap the rewards of building a strong professional network, and how this week's guests tap into that. Etienne de Bruin welcomes Erin Fusaro, Wayne Haber and Brent Thumlert to the CTO Studio Podcast. Erin is VP of Engineering at Chipper Cash, a fintech company. Her role involves helping the company grow and scale sustainably. Wayne is VP of Engineering at GitLab, focusing on security, growth and machine learning. Their primary objective is increasing “revenue via growth experiments and growth hacking and also apply machine learning to make teams customers more efficient.” Brent is the Managing Director of Software and Technology at Radicle. “Our purpose is to help people find the balance between people, planet and profit, specifically around inventory and reducing their greenhouse gas emissions,” he tells Etienne. Some ideas you'll hear them explore are: Who are you bringing to the table when you sit at the table? Having a strong network means that you bring more than just your expertise; you're also bringing all the people you know and have influence over. You can get objective feedback on new ideas from your network and enter new places at a high level of trust. Maintaining a network of professionals who are as invested in personal development as you are is like “crowdsourcing mentorship”. Relationship building is everything in networking. “My network always wins,” Erin says. “That network is such a big part of my value as a leader … my network supersedes any job I have, because it is continuous across my career whereas I may work for a company for a period of time.” “A healthy network creates knowns and predictability or removes uncertainty.” One way to keep relationships strong is to watch what you say publicly. How to measure the health of your network. The power of community and group discussion. Using a personal Slack channel to keep in touch and simultaneously help one another expand their network. Resources Erin Fusaro on LinkedIn | Email Brent Thumlert on LinkedIn | Email Wayne Haber on LinkedIn
Our expert hosts, Kate Moody and Nicole Perry, are joined by some great guests to talk about the most notable fintech, financial services and banking news from the past week. This week's guests include: Katie Llanos-Small, Founder & Editor, Iupana Brian Byrnes, Head of Personal Finance, Moneybox We cover the following stories from the fintech and financial services space: Cost of living: People turning back to cash as prices rise - 4:28 Argentinian fintech start-up Geopagos raises $35m funding round - 17:35 ZayZoon charges employees $5 to get paid sooner - 28:38 SoftBank CEO ‘ashamed' of pride in past profits as record losses prompt cost cut - 38:55 The Bank of London to boost US presence with tech hub in North Carolina - 48:08 Central Bank of Kenya doubles down on its position on Flutterwave and Chipper Cash, orders banks to close fintechs' accounts - 49:50 Domino's Pizza says arrivederci, flees Italy after failing to win over local customers - 52:20 Fintech Insider by 11:FS is a podcast dedicated to all things fintech, banking, technology and financial services. It's hosted by a rotation of 11:FS experts including David M. Brear, Simon Taylor, Jason Bates and Gwera Kiwana, as well as a range of brilliant guests. We cover the latest global news, bring you interviews from industry experts or take a deep dive into subject matters such as APIs, AI or digital banking. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and please leave a review Follow us on Twitter: @fintechinsiders where you can ask the hosts questions, or email podcasts@11fs.com! Special Guests: Brian Byrnes and Katie Llanos-Small.
Available on Spotify, Apple, and anywhere else you listen to podcasts!Timestamps:Intro‘Fin-techionary' of the Week: Cross Border Payments (1:36)News (2:31)Interview with Wiza about his experience and current work at Chipper Cash(4:54)Quick Fire Questions with Wiza and friendly questions (27:46)Signals: ‘Decimal's Matt Tait on Fundraising During a Downturn'(35:51)Transcript:IntroHey FinTech friends. Hey FinTech friends. My name is Helen Femi Williams, and I'm your host of this new podcast. Hey FinTech friends!This podcast is brought to you by This Week in FinTech, which is on the front page of global FinTech news, fostering the largest FinTech community through newsletters, thought leadership, and events. Oh, and now podcasting. And what's quite cool about this community is the creativity, the intelligence, and also understanding that those who work in the field are just regular people who've decided to devote themselves to solving a particular problem. And with that comes a unique mix of finance, technology, and fun, which is exactly what this podcast wants to explore. So expect this content to be informative? Yes. But we're also keen to get to know our founders and ask them questions you didn't know you needed answering. So let's talk about the structure of this podcast. First, we're gonna go through the news. And if you're a subscriber to this week in FinTech newsletter, you're in luck because this is the audio version. Then we're going to chat with this week's friend, which is Wiza Jalakasi, VP of Global Developer Relations at Chipper Cash. And lastly, I'll tell you a bit about the latest signal article. ‘Fintech Founders: Decimal's Matt Tait on Fundraising During a Downturn' written by Dez Flemming.Oh, and one last thing before we start this interview, I should tell you that every episode, we're going to be dropping a ‘fin-techionary. The dictionary definition of a FinTech keyword, which we talked about on the podcast with our guest, and this week, it's:cross-border paymentsAccording to the Bank of England, Cross-border payments are financial transactions where the payer and the recipient are based in separate countries. They cover both wholesale and retail payments, including remittances.Cross-border payments can be made in several different ways. Bank transfers, credit card payments, and alternative payment methods such as e-money wallets and mobile payments are currently the most prevalent ways of transferring funds across borders.So hope you enjoy our friendly chat with this week's friend. But first this week in FinTech….
There's never been more ways for artists to tap directly into their fan bases than present day. However, actually understanding those same audiences hasn't scaled at the same rate with the times. My guest on Trapital this week, Denisha Kuhlor, is out to solve that pain point with her new music tech startup, Stan.Denisha's company wants to take a more scientific approach to understanding and growing an artist's fanbase — from the casuals to the “stans.” Strengthening the artist-fan relationship will create better fan experiences, or as Denisha calls them, “moments of magic.” One way to create that magic is through live performance, but not necessarily at music festivals, argues Denisha. She thinks artists are mistakenly prioritizing quantitative metrics (attendance and performance-fee sizes) rather than the qualitative. While this might provide a short-term boost, it hurts in the long term since artists aren't connecting with the “stans” that are paying to see them and them only. Denisha has observed this effect among Africa-based artists. The continent has produced a number of new stars, who generally “cut their teeth” performing at smaller, but more intimate venues like a club or even a wedding. Denisha has more insights into the rise of Africa's music scene, the state of touring, and more. Here's all our talking points in this episode:[2:44] The Downside Of Performing At Music Festivals[8:52] Followers Aren't Your Fans[12:51] African Artists Model The Way For Growing A Fanbase[14:11] Benefits Of Instant Feedback Loops When Performing[16:47] Cardi B's Unique Approach To Touring[21:28] Deeper Message In Kendrick Lamar's Partnership With Cash App [26:52] What's The Future Of African Music?[28:07] TikTok's Influence In Africa's Music Scene[31:42] Differences Between Performing In US Vs. Africa [33:55] 'Elasticity” Of An Artist Like Future[38:41] Denisha's Start-Up Stan Is Reimagining Fan-Artist Relationship[40:19] How An Artist Can Leverage StanListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop's biggest players by reading Trapital's free weekly memo. Transcription[00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways, it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like, I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen. [00:00:31] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about fans, specifically as it relates to music festivals because the people that see you perform at music festivals are not necessarily the same people that see you perform when you're on a tour. And on this episode, I was joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan, a company that focuses specifically on helping artists make better decisions based on their fan engagement.[00:01:24] Dan Runcie: And we talked all about what it's like for artists that focus on music festivals and while music festivals can be a great way to reach new people and a great way to get a good check, especially if you're a headliner performing at one of the big ones, it doesn't replace the things that don't scale and doing the hard work of building a fan base, and going out there, and meeting the people that actually want to see your music and see you in person.[00:01:50] Dan Runcie: So we talk about that. We talk about some of the current trends in the trade-offs and what Denisha is currently seeing, specifically in Africa with artists like Burna Boy, and Wizkid, and Davido and others that have really made the most of the constraints that they've had, but how it actually helped improve their careers as well.[00:02:08] Dan Runcie: We also talked about the music investment landscape, specifically in Africa, some of the opportunities there, some of the differences as it relates to music streaming. And then we chat a little bit more about Stan and what Denisha is building towards. This is a really fun combo. I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Denisha.[00:02:26] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And Denisha, you recently wrote an awesome guest piece in Trapital about the downside of music festivals. So why did you write this piece? Let's talk about it. [00:02:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So it's been something that's been in my mind for a long time. I think even on the consumer side, I've changed, I guess, how I patronize music and seeing artists and really just wanted to talk about like, how that impacts my relationship with the artists. I think we've been really conditioned and excited as consumers to attend festivals that optimize for seeing as many artists as possible.[00:03:09] Denisha Kuhlor: But what I think about some of my favorite music moments, frankly, they weren't at a festival, always a show that the artists headlined themselves. And so when I think about the impact and the touring coming, kind of coming back, you know, since restrictions, because of COVID, I think it was really important to explore from both an artist and somewhat a fan perspective.[00:03:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things, I think, you highlight as well, especially on the artist's perspective too, we could easily get caught up in the allure of festivals. People always want to see who's headlining Coachella and what does it mean. And there's not going to be as much of a headlining or newsworthy thing if you're doing your own festival, but in a lot of ways, that's where you really meet your fans everywhere. And in a lot of ways, that makes much more of a difference in the long term even if the initial check size isn't as big, which you called out. [00:04:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And in a weird way, festivals have almost become like very industry, I guess, and everything leading up to the festival, right? The politics behind being picked, where your name is on the flyer and, and what that represents. And while they're all great, I guess, points that can help an artist in the right direction, I think there's other ways to do it that maybe don't initially come with some of that fanfare. I totally agree. [00:04:25] Dan Runcie: So what are some of those ways? [00:04:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So I really, to, I guess, put a tech or venture lens on it, but the great essay of like, doing things that don't scale, right? Like, I think so often as an artist or as an aspiring artist, it's really easy to look up to the really big things. Like you said, those are the things that are newsworthy, those are the things that are covered, and that people like see as amazing. But I, I think that artists right now have like a really unique ability to just play around, right, and play around with what that means. So I think a lot about Burna Boy's interview in Billboard recently. And even though he just like headline MSG, is the first Nigerian act to do that, and has been breaking a ton of records. Like, he just kind of was like, the next big thing for me is touring in like, avant-garde venues or venues that you typically wouldn't.[00:05:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And while he's a big star, that's something that's really feasible for small artists as well, right? You know, venues, venues and tradition. And that's why I love what, like Sofar Sounds are, is doing or other platforms. But I think so often it's easy to have like a uniform idea of what a tour looks like, or even what connecting with your fans looks like.[00:05:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think sometimes just bringing together, like, even 20 or 25 people that want to see you, that are willing to take their time. And like this world of an attention deficit, like someone giving an hour or two hours of your time just to appreciate your art is really amazing. And I think that artists are so used, like, just sold out a thousand, a thousand seats or 2000 or 3000. The quantitative numbers kind of don't allow them to connect on a qualitative level. [00:05:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And everyone has to start somewhere. But I feel like in this era where there's so much instant gratification, people don't always want to go through the steps of shooting in the gym or any of that to get to that point.[00:06:09] Dan Runcie: And I think part of what makes it tough, even if they're willing to do it, sometimes the optics can be a bit scary just because of how things are set up. I think one of the things that you mentioned in the piece and we were talking about afterward is just how, if an artist gets booked on a festival, everyone may not necessarily be there to see them, even the people that are standing there, but there's this optic of look at me, performing in front of these 8,000 people that are immediately in front of me, right? But if they go and do their own show and they can't sell a thousand tickets, or if they have one of those things where they're performing and you could see so much space in between the people that are standing in the audience, then there's a bit of a vanity piece where it's like, are you comfortable with that even though, you know, that that's how you build a fan base. [00:06:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So true. You know, as we were talking about that point, I thought a lot deeper about it, and a dynamic, I think, that's also really important is almost like how social media accessibility also plays from a peer perspective.[00:07:12] Denisha Kuhlor: And so these artists, while you can be a smaller, newer, upcoming artist, you can, I guess, be or feel like your peers with artists that are way larger than you just for proximity to that artist. And as a result, you almost kind of feel, like, embarrassed, if you will. It's like a freshman hanging out with a senior, right?[00:07:31] Denisha Kuhlor: They're going to do senior things, whether it's going to prom or what, like whatever, but there's, like, really levels and social media. And I guess just other mediums have kind of taken away some of those levels. And as a result, like Issa Rae's quote, people are so busy, like, networking that they're not networking across. And as a result who or what they compare themselves to creates a false sense of reality when it comes time for their own careers. [00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that if you're on that stage, you think, okay. Yeah, I'm here, but you're really not. There's a huge difference. And as we both know, festivals get sold by the headliners, and yeah, the further, the smaller your font size is, for better or worse, the more interchangeable you actually are. And I think an instance of this, I know I've written about this recently, was looking at Coi Leray. And a lot of people had made a bit of noise about where things looked like from her perspective and her numbers because she had so many things that were coincides in her favor, in terms of being signed a Republic, she had songs with Nicki and Lil Durk. She performed on Fallon, BET awards. Benzino's daughter, over 6 million Instagram followers, but when it came time to sell her album, we're talking 11,500 units, which is around, I mean, less than 20 million streams in a week, which isn't that much.[00:08:52] Dan Runcie: There's plenty of other legacy albums that get more than that. And then they recently announced her tour and she's doing a mix of festivals and tour stops, but her tour stops, they're cities with less than 500 capacity venues. And I don't think it's just her necessarily. I think this applies to a lot of people, but it's just such a big difference where, okay, your followers are not necessarily your fans. And I think the distinction between touring and doing, you know, festivals highlights that more than anything. [00:09:24] Denisha Kuhlor: I think she's been a really interesting one to watch if only for all the things you mentioned. She's a great example of kind of a new artist these days and it begs the question, like, if attention at all, even really equals any type of conversion to, like, true patronage. And something I find is that like in a digitally native generation, they don't view attention, or maybe even we, like, we don't necessarily view attention in a positive or negative sentiment. Just because in a way you're willing to give your attention to something doesn't mean in any way it's potentially in your favor when the time comes that that attention will convert to something really tangible.[00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: But I also in, you know, in her case being signed, you know, being signed to Republic, I think it continues to, like, push that conversation of what A&R should look like now. You know, reading a lot about how A&R has evolved and having conversations with people in the industry. I think before or, or now it's evolved, right, to, like, leveraging data, right? And so many people talk about data. You can, of course, leverage data to find these up-and-coming artists, but then once you do or decide that you want to invest in this artist and work with this artist, what do those conversations kind of look like early to promote that strategy and kind of sometimes force the artists to, to go slow before they can go fast.[00:10:41] Denisha Kuhlor: I mean, we've all seen documentaries of artists from decades ago and kind of all the pre-work they did before even being pushed to being allowed to release a single or being allowed to perform a song. And that looks very different now. It almost seems like things are backwards, but not in a reverse engineer backwards. It's more just like, this happened and so now let's capitalize on that. And I think that we're kind of seeing some of the negative effects of premature success if you will. [00:11:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think that, on a more recent level, I think about Olivia Rodrigo here in the US, everyone saw how big Sour was and they were like, oh, well, you could go tour arenas now.[00:11:20] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like her and her team talked about it. They're like, no, we're going to stick to the halls that we have. And it looks like she's performing in venues that have, you know, roughly several thousand, you know, capacity. At least that's what I saw here when she came through in San Francisco. And I think she may have done like Radio City or some of the others I would have to check, but I feel like that makes sense. You know, just given that, but I think this dynamic is even more pronounced in Africa, which a lot of the artists, which have recently become superstars there as well. And you talked a lot about that in the piece and Burna Boy, who I think is a great case study on this. [00:11:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, one, just loved the music coming out of the continent. And two, I think it's really fascinating in the way artists have to position their careers to really succeed both in the continent and on a global scale. You know, part of it in a way probably comes from socioeconomic factors and then as well as just having like really migrant diasporas.[00:12:16] Denisha Kuhlor: But because of that, artists are like really, I think, forced to prioritize performing in the beginning. And when you look at the audience, right, it is kind of those things that don't scale. It's the weddings, it's the really small club performances, it's the open mics, like things that used to be very common for artists everywhere.[00:12:37] Denisha Kuhlor: But seems like, has kind of, kind of slowed down. And so as a result, I think, without having an A&R, they kind of do their own a A&R, right? You've heard stories of artists who would come to a country once and like nobody came to see them. And then three years later, the show was sold out.[00:12:51] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, artists are not only able to refine their performances. They get quick feedback loops and they do it in a way that I think is authentic to them and their sound. And it forces them to win people over, right? If you're performing at a wedding, the percentage of people that might like you could be high, could be low. But ultimately you want to walk away with more fans, right? These people are giving you an opportunity to convert them or at least to try. Whereas now I think, unfortunately, a little bit of entitlement that comes with some artists, right? Even from being upset when the audience doesn't react a certain way, and that's just like a humility that I think African artists have, have embraced.[00:13:28] Denisha Kuhlor: In terms of converting, converting the fan or the listener. And I think you see that even more when the artist really begins to take a global approach. Everybody from, you know, Davido shutting out the power of, the power of New York, or why music from the continent has been able to get so big as of recently.[00:13:46] Denisha Kuhlor: And so I think that African artists are a great example in terms of looking to, to kind of do that slow climb, and that slow work to be able to get to the point where they can sell out arenas today. [00:13:57] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like the constraints that the industry has forced them to do the things that don't scale and because they exactly did that, that's how they're in the position they are today. And that's why Burna Boy's selling out Madison Square Garden, right? [00:14:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. And it's a safe space, if you will, to get feedback. I think, you know, so often as an artist, you're of course refining who you are in creative direction and all of that, but there's just some things that come from experience with being a performer and constantly just having those feedback loops to, to iterate on what songs work, what transitions work. When you see a Beyoncé at Coachella, that's years and decades of being able to study crowd reaction of how certain things flow, what works, what doesn't work to put on a show like that.[00:14:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the feedback loops piece is key too, 'cause obviously that's going to be harder to get from a festival because you don't even know if half these people are just, you know, burning time until the headliner comes, but you can actually see what the folks you're trying to reach resonate with. And this is something that I always thought about.[00:14:59] Dan Runcie: Tyler Perry, of course, this isn't music, but with his place, he would always talk about this, how he would switch things up. He's going on this large tour across different parts of the country. He's going to use certain jokes or use certain lines that are going to work in the South, that aren't going to work in the Northeast and aren't going to work on the West Coast, and things like that.[00:15:18] Dan Runcie: And anyone that is performing that actually sees how the people that they are reaching, interact with the stuff while they're doing it. It almost always leads to a better product so that when they are doing the movies or when they are doing the mass thing, they can hit the ground running. [00:15:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's really true. And you know, as you're talking, it makes me think about like, maybe there's even a certain archetype of artists and like, one that doesn't, like, heavily involve performance. Like, I think a lot about comedians and what the, what a comedian looks like now. You have your Instagram comedians or, you know, TikTok comedy is as it's referred to, but not many of them are thinking about going on tour doing standup. And so maybe in some ways, even all-encompassing performer is different now. [00:16:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. I do think that for the people that are doing things live, it is easier to see it. I think that honestly, for people that write or podcast, it could be tougher because you, any type of feedback, there has to be at least some level of intent to let me reply to this email or let me follow up. I do think it's relatively easier for someone that has a newsletter to be able to do it relative to someone that's just writing standalone on a website. But I do think that when podcasters have live events and that is attracting people to a certain area, like, that's how they're able to get around this. But everyone, I think most creators, the more IRL things you have, whatever it is that you create, you're going to get more value out of that. [00:16:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I totally agree with you there. [00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the person that I think actually kind of challenges this with some nuance perspective is Cardi B, especially at the highest level, just considering that we're now, it's been four years since Invasion of Privacy.[00:17:00] Dan Runcie: I think it's been five years since Bodak Yellow came out, which is wild to say, but I think there's a few things. One she's yet to do a true formal tour. And she's been the first to say that with, Hey, I'm getting seven-figure guarantees to go do stuff over in Europe. And sometimes I even get those checks here in the US to perform in headline festivals.[00:17:21] Dan Runcie: Why would I go through all of the things that are involved with touring? And to be fair, there are some challenges that many artists have with touring, whether it's okay, making sure that the lighting and everything is set up right. And the production looks great on that first event that you have, because if that doesn't hit right, then that's going to impact the sales for everything else.[00:17:40] Dan Runcie: So even though we know that, yeah, that's part of doing things that don't scale. You have to do it. Some artists are fearful of that. And I think sometimes she may, you know, or at least she's alluded to her avoiding that, or even just the cost. Like, she even talked to herself about how the first time she did Coachella, it cost her more money than she actually got from the events of doing it just because of how much she spent on those things.[00:18:01] Dan Runcie: And, you know, she, at least, of her perspective sounds like she wants to be able to build up leverage likely in order to command a, you know, 40, 50 plus city arena tour that would likely match up with her star power. And I feel like that's part of the thing because I remember there was this debate going on, where people were wondering, okay, you know, if she does, like, what she would do.[00:18:26] Dan Runcie: And of course you'd all the Nicki Minaj haters were being like, oh, well she's not doing a tour 'cause she can't sell out a tour. And it's like, okay, I don't think it's that, you know, egregious. You all can, the barbs can relax a bit. But I do think that, you know, part of what I think makes it kind of tough, especially from a, a social following perspective, which I know is something that we've talked about before is that with certain artists, the reason that people follow you, you mentioned this earlier, isn't always because they're, like, vibing with your music.[00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, Cardi B puts out a lot of, you know, beauty shots to show off her fashion to show off her glamor, and some people may like that stuff and they may have not even listened to WAP or any of the, you know, bigger hits she has so how do you quantify that? So I'm very interested to see, one, what this next album looks like and what her next live performance strategy looks like.[00:19:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, if, if I was like thinking about what would be interesting for Cardi B, I think ultimately it'd be kind of a hybrid experience, right? Like I think you nailed it on the head in the sense that Cardi is a lifestyle, a lifestyle brand that has many different pillars that stand for many different things.[00:19:36] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really resonate with her, but for all types of things. And so, you know, you see more artists creating their own festivals and I don't know if there's a potential to, like, pilot what that, like, hybrid concept could look like maybe in the Bronx or somewhere unique to her.[00:19:50] Denisha Kuhlor: But I think that ultimately it will need to encompass everything that she represents. And so while the music will, of course, be one of those pillars, I feel like it could be, or would be so much, so much more. And given that she has so many brand deals and endorsements with companies that really appreciate her for the lifestyle brand that she is, I think it could be really, really unique.[00:20:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Even a partner with a festival promoter, you know, Rolling Loud is working with Chris Brown and Lil Baby as they go on tour. Like, even to, to have that partnership in a way that's really authentic and unique to her, I think is going to be fascinating. I feel like she's the artist that can kind of push the envelope in terms of experiencing her or artist in a way that we haven't necessarily thought of. You know, so often I think about, I think about like the rise or, of nightclubs and like branded parties. And right now you kind of see like two things, right? There's like really popular nightclubs that will just exist by virtue of like being a marquee name, whether that's the LIV and LIV on Sunday, but then you also have parties, right? And the parties exist without the, the venues. What I constantly think about is, like, everyday people is the party. It's not about where everyday people is or more, or more so where they're going. And so I think that's like a similar thing, that Cardi brings and the ability that she's so much of the brand, that it's more so about what she wants to do and where she'll bring people to that medium versus following the traditional way things have been done before. [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the branded piece, it, especially being able to have some type of partner with the concert or with the tour more broadly, would be big because I'm thinking about some of the recent ones we've seen. And even some of these are just slight nuances, like Kendrick Lamar partnering with Cash App for his Big Steppers tour.[00:21:28] Dan Runcie: He has coming up. I saw The Weeknd has one of these crypto companies. I think it's Binance. Yeah, Binance is doing his tour and he's doing like a big stadium tour for this run that he has coming up. And I think that just opens it up to be like, yeah, you could have many other folks. It doesn't always necessarily have to be, you know, Visa credit card holders to get the pre-check or whatever it is to get the early thing. You know, you can actually have, you know, other partners that are aligned with many of the brands and partnerships that Cardi has already had relationships with. [00:22:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And I really thought, you know, the Kendrick and Cash App partnership was fascinating to me because of, I feel like, the message it sent, right? Like, to me, it almost said like, let's make this tour accessible to all our fans versus the barrier to entry, you know, while it's nice to have an Amex Platinum, not everyone does so like versus the barrier to entry. And I think that's another really important thing with touring, right?[00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Like controlling the barriers to entry in which your fans get to see you. And so, you know, it just really symbolized to me that, like, in a way, Kendrick, like, wants his biggest fans there and he's going to remove the barriers to entry to do so. So that was a, I really enjoyed seeing that partnership.[00:22:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point because I think one of the challenges that we've seen over the years with live shows and live entertainment pricing for events is artists that are trying to price things in a way to give fans a fair chance. But also understanding that the reseller market is going to, you know, take it up to a crazy amount and then you have artists buying back and then trying to sell it themselves as resellers. And I know it could just get so messy when you see that. But I think it's clearly done because they want to be able to make sure that the actual fans can do it. But yeah, if you're just giving it to like Amex Platinum and Black Card holders, then it isn't going to work Like, we've all seen the dynamics of how Cash App grew. Cash App grew because of hip-hop fans 'cause of hip-hop influencers pushing this, and then that's how they're able to grow in the South and grow in places that Venmo didn't grow. So have it all lined up if you're trying to reach those people.[00:23:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. You know, in, in the years to come and especially with the rise of tech and really probably as a result of rising customer acquisition costs on Facebook ads and other platforms. Partnering with tech companies is going to be a great source, a great source of revenue.[00:23:52] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think just authentic partnership for artists. And ultimately it'll come down to their methodology behind choosing the right partners and what it says about how they value or how they desire to connect with their audiences. So I'm excited to see more, more partnerships, especially, I guess not just in the FinTech space, but consumer technology space overall. And I think we can tell, you know, even just as regular fans, whether it's authentic or not. Cash App made so much sense, everybody was like, of course. And I think the best part about it was people were like, oh, I have an account. Like, I've already done X thing. And so this just naturally fits in with my lifestyle. [00:24:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I, I think we'll see more of it. I hope we continue to, I know a lot of these companies have been US-based, but I'm really excited to see what's going to be coming from Africa specifically because there's so much music activity.[00:24:43] Dan Runcie: We already talked about the artists coming through and how the artists themselves in many ways will have better chops just because of the constraints that you know, are there that currently existed that we talked about earlier. What are you seeing in the space? What excites you?[00:24:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I've been really excited about everything coming out of the continent, both from a music standpoint and venture standpoint.[00:25:04] Denisha Kuhlor: It's interesting because for a long time telcos have been heavily involved in underwriting artists, artists careers, right? So a lot of performances and even festivals are heavily sponsored by telcos on the continent. And so they've always had a role and I think kind of understood the value in investing in partnering with, with artists early. I think what's evolving is the amount of money coming to the continent, especially as it relates to startups and funding tech companies.[00:25:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And so as a result, like they realize the value as well and investing in music. And you see a lot of those partnerships. I mean, Chipper Cash is partnered with Burna Boy, right? So, like looking at, like, one of the most valued FinTech companies in Africa and one of the biggest artists in Africa, I think we're going to continue to see those relationships and those partnerships. I also think that it's going to evolve to a natural progression that we saw here as that artists want a bit more, a bit more of the pie. And so while, you know, speculating, I think a lot of these deals are, you know, cash, maybe a small range of cash and a little bit of equity.[00:26:06] Denisha Kuhlor: I think we're going to see artists want to become a lot more hands-on, especially for projects that are commoditized. And in a lot of ways, remittances or some of these FinTech products are, are really dependent on your ability to have a license. And so as artists maybe get to start to be able to navigate that landscape and bring together teams, I would be, I wouldn't be surprised to see them launch products of their own in similar spaces.[00:26:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, there's so much, I also look at what's happening in music specifically. Of course, as we know all the major record labels have a presence, not just in the, you know, continent overall, but in the different areas. I mean, it's huge. You can't just, you know, have a presence in South Africa and think you're going to cover everything happening sub Sahara or everywhere else.[00:26:52] Dan Runcie: Like, you need to be focused on what's happening in a particular area. And I think too, we saw earlier this year in Andreessen Horowitz had made its first investment in that mobile games company, Carry1st, I think we're going to see more and more of that. And I do think that we're going to see even more innovation in African music.[00:27:12] Dan Runcie: I know that all the streaming services have been trying to acquire more subscribers and more listeners in those places. But yeah, the dominant listening in many ways is still downloads of the companies that have been able to focus on that. So there's so many unique aspects that I'm excited to see play out.[00:27:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. Another, you know, another, I guess, thing that's really interesting to me is the kind of the conversation lately, as it relates to like what type of music has dominated. I've seen and talked to a lot of folks who kind of hypothesized that, like the reason music coming out of the continents and has grown so much is because it's very universal in a way where everybody can participate. Like say, on the dance floor, just experiencing the music versus kind of some of the hip-hop and rap music that has dominated that's really driven by club culture, and bottle popping culture, and VIP, and sections and, and that whole thing.[00:28:07] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, I find that, I find that dynamic fascinating as well in kind of the universal sense that it brings. And you see that on like TikTok, like how many, like, dances can you make to a song about like popping bottles versus just like a really great beat? [00:28:24] Dan Runcie: Right, right. Yeah. Do you feel like TikTok is having the same impact there on the continent that it is in the US? Are you noticing anything that's unique or different? [00:28:34] Denisha Kuhlor: No. I, I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. As someone who's spent, you know, time in Ghana as well as in the States, like, I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen. [00:29:10] Denisha Kuhlor: So in a lot of ways, I feel like I go or spend time on the continent to see, to see what's new. And then TikTok is probably the biggest indicator of what's most likely to take off from there. But I would look at, you know, some of these cities, especially around nightlife, as more of the curators and, and the tastemakers and TikTok, just being a mirror of, in some ways, the work that's already been done. [00:29:31] Dan Runcie: Okay. So it's more so following the culture, not setting it. [00:29:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, to some extent that's, I would say maybe it's, it's a little different in the US because I do think that what we see on TikTok in some ways does set where people end up following, at least here, right? Because I think you just see so many trends originating from things people do. You're more likely to see clips from TikTok posted and shared on other platforms, as opposed to what you may see, vice versa. So I feel like, yeah. [00:30:05] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I think it's definitely, I think it's definitely very different and I think it's what makes being an artist a little, a little tricky because if you are an American artist, for example, and your song is becoming the biggest thing in Ghana, that probably has very, you know, different implications for how you navigate that or how you think about career and how you think about strategy.[00:30:24] Denisha Kuhlor: And, you know, unfortunately, I guess if you're an artist maybe who has risen on TikTok primarily in the States, what does that mean when it comes time for touring or time to do a date? How is that attention converted? Because the fact of the matter is American fans just have more opportunities to patronize their favorite artists.[00:30:42] Denisha Kuhlor: When you look at the amount of venues and just like analysis to, and ways you can interact with artists here, there's just so many, so many option. And so that conversion rate is high or is harder. [00:30:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that reminds me of something else I've heard artists say. This isn't anything new, but they've said that they always get more love when, US artists specifically, they always get more love when they perform outside of the US because the US artists, they see plenty of things there or the US fans necessarily, they have more opportunities to see you. So they're not necessarily as like wilder, they take the moment in as special as it is, as opposed to the artists that are going outside of the USA perform. [00:31:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, I talk to folks around when J Cole in Nigeria. And I think that was such a great example. Like, he had just released the album that day and was shocked that people knew, that people knew every word. And specifically, I think when artists come to the continent, it's always an occasion, right? People are really excited.[00:31:42] Denisha Kuhlor: Cardi B was a great example. People are just like really excited in some ways that they're like participating. Like, we didn't go to you, you came to us. You value us enough to do that. And I think, you know, regardless whether it's Africa or Japan or even Europe, like, there's just a, yeah, there's just a different level of, of appreciation.[00:32:00] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really, really hold onto it as an experience that will, that will be with them. And unfortunately, because of some of these, these festivals, like you can casually see an artist that you don't even like that much. Multiple times, like, you know, I don't, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but let's say if you go to every Rolling Loud festival in New York, just once a year, how many artists have overlapped or how many artists have you seen multiple times?[00:32:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Just as a result of patronizing that one Fest. And so as a result, the star power, the whole je ne sais quoi, kind of, kind of falls away. But I think you don't get that same type of, I guess, performance burnout or consumer burnout when you do headline your own tour because it's something different every time. It's experiencing, you know, Beyoncé fans, I'm sure we'll talk about this, but I think the beauty and what her Coachella performance was. Everyone knew the songs, right, we knew the music for the most part, but it, it was now just experiencing it in a different way and in a way that she wanted us to experience it. And unfortunately, I don't think artists get to do that in the same way with festivals they're not headlining. [00:33:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The Rolling Loud example always makes me think of Future. I always say that he has a low-key residency at that. I, I actually went back, and counted this. I forget how many Rolling Louds there have been, but at least 40% of them, he has been a headliner at.[00:33:23] Dan Runcie: I mean, it's a high number and to your point, I mean, I'm sure that paycheck's great. I, I'm not concerned about, you know, Future from a buddy perspective. He is prolific, and, I mean, he had one of the best-selling albums so far this year, but yeah, to your point that is kind of, I think, Future is a model that clicks with that as well.[00:33:42] Dan Runcie: He's going to put out music early and often. He's going to perform, and he's always going to be there. And I think for him it works, but it's just not going to be the same thing necessarily as. Beyoncé record or something like that.[00:33:55] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I'm curious, how do you think that impacts like an artist's elasticity, like, of course, with more and more artists selling their catalogs and just navigating the world as an artist very differently, how do you think that does impact their just elasticity in the music game overall? [00:34:12] Dan Runcie: I think it's twofold because I think that to one point, a lot of artists do feel like they have to keep the content machine turning. I think that's, that kinda line, lines up with Daniel Ek, Spotify CEO, and what he had said that was a polarizing statement at the time of you releasing music every three years, isn't going to be enough anymore. So I do think that someone like Future has lead into that and say, okay, I have this base and I know they're going to listen to everything that I put out, whatever I do it. So let me maximize that.[00:34:49] Dan Runcie: And I think for someone like Future because as popular as he is with a particular demo, one, his mainstream popularity isn't quite where it was like when like DS2 came out in 2015. So he's definitely serving more of the large, but, you know, core fans. And I think just given some of the issues that people have about him, and, of course, we've all seen the memes about, you know, problematic Future sending, you know, the text to the, to the ex or whatever it is.[00:35:20] Dan Runcie: Like, I don't think that he necessarily has the same marketability to let's say, go launch a, you know, huge, whatever it is, the same way that we see the Beyoncé or Rihanna do it. That doesn't mean he can't, he can obviously still has the platform. So I do think for him and even someone like an NBA YoungBoy who, you know, is even younger, then releasing music early and often kind of works for them because they may not get, you know, like, the big deal from whatever company wanting to partner with them, but they could reach their fans directly. So they're going to maximize that. So I think it's a little different though, when you are a Beyoncé or you are a Rihanna where, you know, there's so many other things you're doing, so when you release music, you do want it to hit because you want it to have this halo effect over everything else that you're doing.[00:36:06] Dan Runcie: There's anomalies to this, of course, I mean, or not anomalies, but I think some folks will do it differently. I mean, Drake is still going to give you a release every year, every other year. Kanye West has likely been doing the same, but I do think that that's still different than, you know, how like Future's going about it.[00:36:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Agreed. Agreed. I wonder 10 years from now or 15 years from now if Future is still touring or even releasing music, what that relationship looks like, and even what a tour would look like given the brevity of music he's put out. [00:36:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. To be honest, I think he likely will, just a matter of like, you know, what does it look like? How big and like, you know, like, the dynamics there. I recently posed the question on Twitter, which artist do you expect to still be releasing music when they're 70 plus years old? I don't think many people mentioned him, but I would definitely put him in that category. I feel like not too far away from 40. I do think that, you know, he loves this, for better or worse, and I feel like he'll likely continue. [00:37:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in, in rap, it's still so new, which is crazy that we have just seen enough examples of that. And so these probably, or artists like Future will be those, those examples for us to look back at.[00:37:20] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think so much of this, with this whole conversation, we're talking about the relationship between fans and how fans really help you format what you're doing and how to really set the framework for your career. And this aligns with the work that you're doing now. You recently launched and, and announce the company you have with Stan that is helping artists have a more fan-focused approach to their careers. So can you talk a bit more about that? [00:37:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So I recently decided to go full-time on a music tech startup called Stan, focused on audience engagement infrastructure, so really to help artists understand their audiences at a micro and macro level with the goal of providing better fan experiences. I kind of think it's crazy in some ways that every industry that wants to encourage a repeatable customer behavior has a loyalty program, but unfortunately, artists have very fragmented loyalty programs. And of course, the rise of NFTs and specific things as it relates to streaming platforms or even email lists. We've seen artists make great attempts, I think at doing and running really effective programs, but I really want to add more, more science to the arts to create, if you will, moments of magic on a greater scale. So artists can better connect with their fan bases. [00:38:36] Dan Runcie: Nice. Where did the inspiration come from? I'm sure a lot of it is things we talked about in this conversation.[00:38:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so much of it. Interestingly enough, it has come from writing. I long admired, of course, Trapital and, and other platforms. And really just wanted to explore, like, the conversation of fan relationships. And I think fan relationships have evolved so much, but wanted to kind of like push the, push the envelope in terms of what was being explored as it relates to the fan-artist relationship and also highlight how sophisticated fans are of course, with, you know, the rise of, of stans and how much they're covered. I think that people think of fans as just like, okay, like a casual listener and then the overzealous fan. And I think that's such a, that's such a gap and fandoms operate in such a sophisticated way, that we really needed to push the conversation on what that looked like.[00:39:25] Denisha Kuhlor: And as a result, the more I kept writing, the greater, like the problem became to me in the sense of, I think there's a lot of really, really amazing platforms designed to, you know, be direct to fan and connect the artists to the fan. But for anybody that's in any type of relationship business, I think it feels a little used car salesman to, like, try and extract money, like immediately, like, Hey, I just met you, like, give me this thing. And so I felt like there was a, an over-focus on the monetization of fan bases. Before fan bases were frankly strong enough to, to survive that monetization. So I kind of wanted to take it back a step to say, if you have a really strong relationship, relationships are everything, right? You'll be able to survive and not even just survive, thrive, because you can withstand volatility and maybe even turmoil.[00:40:13] Dan Runcie: So what does it look like from the artist's perspective? Like, if I wanted get involved, like, what does that engagement look like? [00:40:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So we're currently in the experimentation phase playing around with products and experiments that allow us to hit product-market fit. We're gearing up for a beta. So I love to talk to any artists that think really intensely about connecting with their fans. But ideally, we love to work with artists that, one, want to create, like, what I call moments of magic. And so like some great examples is J Cole, right? Like, not only the Dollar & A Dream Tour,, but going to, going to this fan's graduations or how do you actively and naturally involve yourself in your fan's life in a way that feels authentic and encourages a bidirectional relationship.[00:40:55] Denisha Kuhlor: As a result, a lot of the work that we're doing is analyzing artists and their current data as well as tapping into, into new data sets as a result of creating games, as well as just different forms for artists to connect with their fans. So any artist that, one, thinks deeply about this, that wants to understand their data better across multiple platforms. We, we'd love to talk to you, especially as we work with artists on an ad hoc basis to gear up for the launch of the platform. [00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. I mean, as we both know, this type of need is more crucial than ever, and there's so much data that can be misleading or misunderstood as you've talked about before you can't just go on a follower account. You can't just go on Spotify listens. Some of these things correlate, but a lot of them don't. [00:41:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, it's so true. You know, I think Spotify Wrapped is always so interesting to me in the sense that it's great, right? And what became even more interesting was when fans, fans, of course, post, but then to see artists post, right?[00:41:54] Denisha Kuhlor: And kind of what that meant for them and the excitement. And so there were things that I felt like off the bat, like, certain artists expected to get, right, you expected to have every country represented when it came to countries listened or just certain things represented, but I thought a lot about it.[00:42:08] Denisha Kuhlor: And I was just like, that one snapshot into a portion of your fan base. Like, what does that tell you from an actionable data perspective? But I guess before we can even know how relevant or how much you can guide your actions around those results is how much of your fan base is on Spotify? Like you mentioned, in actual, like, a lot of music is listened through downloads or partnerships with telcos and other streaming platforms.[00:42:31] Denisha Kuhlor: People use Audiomack, and Boomplay, and different streaming platforms. And so without, like, knowing an aggregate, what your Spotify listeners even represent when it comes to your audience? It can also be a slippery slope to make directions based on the most advanced data sets. If they're not really replicative of your whole audience.[00:42:51] Dan Runcie: Right. Because I think one of the things that I often see with Spotify specifically is that people will, especially in the US, they'll use it as like a rule of thumb to say that, okay, you see the data that comes to you from Spotify, either multiply it by three or three and a half or four. And maybe that gives you a rough idea of how big the overall streaming market is for a particular artist, but that works in the US that doesn't work for artists elsewhere. So being able to see those distinctions, especially considering how global the music industry is, that's where people can actually make actionable insight. [00:43:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. I think, you know, artists are really starting to approach their careers from a global standpoint will be really, really helpful moving forward.[00:43:33] Denisha Kuhlor: And as they consider the elasticity of their own careers, especially given that, like, smaller markets can be more forgiving, right? And so even if you don't want to necessarily go through the 50-city 500-person venue tour, what about going to just a smaller market globally and getting that feedback, being able to perform, really connecting with your fans that way too.[00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree with you. I think that artists are just going to really have to be global from day one and as a result just because you're familiar with consuming music in a certain way, isn't necessarily how your entire fan base is going to do it. So becoming more sophisticated around what that looks like and how you can best work with those platforms will be really, really advantageous moving forward.[00:44:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Definitely. [00:44:15] Dan Runcie: And you're in a great position to be able to do that. So I feel like the timing lines up well with this. So for you specifically, for the people that either are listening, or whether they're artists or working with artists, where can they follow up? Where could they go? [00:44:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah. So you can find me on Denisha Kuhlor at Twitter, love Twitter so always on there. And then you can just shoot me an email at d@stan.fan as well. [00:44:38] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Denisha, this was great. I feel like we covered a bunch of things that are happening right now in the industry and yeah, very timely. So thanks again for coming. [00:44:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Of course. Thanks for having me. [00:44:49] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands
Fireside Chat: In conversation with Ham Serunjogi In this podcast we dive into a discussion with Ham Serunjogi, Co-Founder & Chief Executive Officer, Chipper Cash, on his entrepreneurial journey to becoming 1 of the 7 unicorns in Africa, raising capital as a startup and fundamentals for growth in Fintech.
Anton and BC welcome Aisha Nyandoro from Springboard to Opportunities, and discuss Chipper Cash, the African Futures Institute, and the brave new film, Neptune Frost.
Semyon Dukach is the Managing Partner of One Way Ventures - the venture capital fund backing exceptional immigrant tech founders building great companies including Brex, Momentus Space, and Chipper Cash. He is also a founder of the nonprofit Cash For Refugees. Previously, Semyon was managing director of Techstars Boston. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/theindustryshow/support
Overview: Today, we're going to talk about Wave, the African consumer payments company. We'll explore Wave's story across 5 areas: We'll start with some context about payments in Africa Wave's launch & early history Wave's Product & monetization strategy Wave's competitive positioning & potential exit options Overall outlook This episode was recorded on May 1, 2022 Companies discussed: Wave, Sendwave, Safaricom (M-PESA), bKash, TeamApt, Chipper Cash, Orange, Opay, Paga, MTN, Airtel, Zedbank & Kuda Bank Business concepts discussed: Consumer Fintech (Agency banking & mobile money), Banking regulation, low cost pricing strategy, customer acquisition strategy, innovator's dilemma & low end disruption Conversation highlights: (01:02) - Wave context (09:13) - Financial inclusion context in Africa (30:10) - Founder background and Sendwave origins (36:06) - Wave Launch in Francophone Africa (54:20) - Fundraising strategy & investors (1:12:15) - Product and monetization strategy (1:34:28) - Competition and exit options (1:55:44) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (2:08:57) - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (2:27:30) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Brené Brown was on the "We can Do Hard Things" podcast, on an episode called "What to Say to Get What You Need". Spoke about human connection. Truly awesome. I liked it so much I started reading Brene's book "Atlas of the heart". Recommendation: Samora Kariuku's substack post about Wave Recommendation: Everett Randle's (from Founders Fnnd) Substack post about Wave Small win: Got lost on the internet prepping for this episode and ended up watching hours of boxing matches. Don't ask Interested in investing in Africa Tech with Olumide: Read about Adamantium fund & contact me at olumide@afrobility.com Founders looking for funding: If you're a B2B founder working on Education, Health, Finance or food, please contact me for funding at olumide@afrobility.com Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Laws of Trading & Only Murders In The Building Small win: Lots of dinners with friends and travel Other content: State of the Industry Report on Mobile Money & 406 Na D Code - Tekno and Falz Investors, Operators, Entrepreneurs - We'd love to hear from you. Please email info@afrobility.com to share feedback or propose topics you'd like to hear.
We had a great chat with Erin, VPE of Chipper Cash and Tracie, CTO at FlyHomes about the challenges we face when onboarding new hires.Check out more at https://cto.studio/
Anita Asiedu (Director of Operations) and Yande Nomvete (Senior Product Ops Analyst) from Chipper Cash join me for the fourth episode of Season 2 of POP. We find out what it's like to grow a product ops team from 1 to many within a year and how the team needed to evolve against the backdrop of rapid scaling. We deep dive on the following challenges: 1. Evolving Responsibilities for the Product Ops team 2. Reducing waste in operations using internal tooling and keeping the user at the centre 3. Hiring externally: how do we find the right talent Listen in for some practical insights into growing a product ops team and how product ops is helping to improve efficiency through internal tooling and keeping the user at the centre of everything!
Anita Asiedu and Yande Nomvete from the Product Ops team at Chipper Cash explore key topics, including:The evolving responsibilities of the product ops teamReducing waste in operations and improving efficiency using internal toolingAlways keeping the user at the center of everythingHow to find the right talent when hiring externally
Today's guest is Samee Zahid, Staff Software Engineer (ML & Data) at Chipper Cash in San Francisco. Founded in 2018, Chipper Cash is a venture-capital-backed Financial technology company that builds software to enable free and instant Peer-to-peer Cross-border payments in Africa and Europe; as well as solutions for businesses and merchants to process online and in-store payments. It is their mission is to provide the most trusted and accessible financial services for people living in Africa and beyond. Samee is a generalist engineer skilled at end-to-end Machine Learning such as data analysis, feature engineering, model training and deployment, data infrastructure, evaluation systems and A/B experimentation. He leads the Intelligence team at Chipper Cash to tackle machine learning and big data problems with an engineering mindset. Samee develops with a strong product focus and big picture instinct, and is excited about emerging tech's ability to transform lives in developing economies. In the episode, Samee will talk about: The work they do at Chipper Cash within FinTech, How they are using Data Science and Machine Learning, An insight into some projects the team are working on, Moving from a large company like Google into a startup, What the future holds for Chipper Cash & Exciting career opportunities with the company
In this episode, your favorite hosts, Yemi and Nnamdi, were joined by the VP, Global Marketing for Chipper Cash, Hasan Luongo. Hasan talks about how he joined chipper cash, how chipper has evolved over the years, how they were able to sign one of the biggest afrobeat artists as a partner and ambassador, including what the future looks like for chipper cash. To ensure you don't miss any episode of our release and for additional information on the hosts, follow @teardownpodcast on Twitter. If you would like to get all the insider's gist first, subscribe to our newsletter here: africanstartupteardownpod.substack.com Please leave a review, comment, share, and like whenever you listen. We want to hear from you and appreciate your feedback. Better ratings mean more people get to listen to the show, and it helps us grow. SHOWNOTES 0.00 Introduction 0.34 How Hasan joined chipper cash 1.51 What is chipper cash 2.54 Chipper cash and products rollout 4.45 Chipper cash and competition 6.14 How chipper cash makes money 11.42 Chipper cash and acquisition 16.34 Chipper cash and brand attribution 17.55 Chipper cash and retention 20.58 Chipper cash's products as it relates to business economics 22.47 How chipper cash decides to add more products 24.00 Back story to signing Burna boy 28.44 What the future is for chipper cash 30.51 Chipper cash and its use cases 33.17 What it took for chipper to become a unicorn 34.34 Chipper cash payment network effects 35.40 How soon chipper cash can run on autopilot 38.21 Outro
Ready for some powerful tech leadership inspiration? Let's talk about how Erin Fusaro, VP of engineering at Chipper Cash, is standing out in her leadership career! In today's episode, I invite Erin to talk about what she is doing to rise up and be an extraordinary leader. We discuss her people-first and performance-driven leadership, being a role model for hyper growth-stage startups, and some important tips and advice to help you uplevel your leadership & career. Ready to learn how this woman in tech did it? Let's go to the show! We dive into: Erin's personal story and career history (and why a computer science degree isn't the only path to an extraordinary career in tech!) Why THIS is a big predictor for success - and how it has served Erin in her career Scaling and hiring like you are preparing for the zombie apocalypse (you have to hear this!) Why you want to work for companies and hiring managers that hire for THIS Erin's MOST IMPORTANT tips for dealing with skeptics, pushback, and setting boundaries in your career The WORST piece of advice she's ever been given (and the best!) And more! Useful links! Want to get your hands on a fast-action simple-to-implement training to up-level your executive presence? Check out https://tonicollis.com/shop/exec-presence for my unique training on how to develop and use executive presence to power-glide through the leadership glass ceiling Catch the show notes, and more details about today's episode here: https://tonicollis.com/episode85 Join us in the Leading Women in Tech Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/leadingwomenintech/ Join us in the Leading Women in Tech LinkedIn group: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/12391391/
Juan Gabriel and Wiza Jalakasi (mostly) survive a barrage of disasters on Roblox while discussing pan-Africanism, the potential for crypto in emerging markets and entrepreneurship. Wiza is a successful founder and currently the VP of Developer Relations at Chipper Cash, on of Africa's largest payment technology companies. Wiza has embedded himself as a crucial junction in African tech ecosystem: first as entrepreneur at 16, later as an operator for some of the region's largest fintech companies and more recently as a Venture Partner for multiple Africa-focused funds, including Rally Cap Ventures.What You Will Learn - How Pan-Africanism can help unlock new solutions - How to balance incentives between investors, operators and founders - The real use cases of crypto in Africa - How African companies are going globalIf you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐review! It will help us get all sorts of guests on the show.Outline (YouTube timestamps)0:00 - Introduction2:52 - Pan-Africanism: Building for a Continent11:27 - Resilience in Entrepreneurship16:58 - Managing Incentives with Investors21:40 - Crypto x Africa24:42 - From Africa, for the WorldWiza: https://twitter.com/wizajSocial Links
Series 6 of 40 Minute Mentor might have come to a close earlier this month, but with another Series filled to the brim with advice and Scaleup insights, we thought we'd add a little something to your pre-Holiday playlist. In this special roundup episode, we focus on a topic we often get asked about here at JBM - VC and Fundraising. Whether you're wondering how to get into the industry or you're a fellow Founder about to embark on your next fundraising journey, this episode features some of the movers and shakers in VC as well as first-hand insights from industry leaders and their fundraising journeys, including: • Cleo Sham, a JBM SOS Board Advisor and Partner at Stride.VC • Dominic McGregor, Founder and Former COO of Social Chain and Founding Partner of Fearless Adventures • Daisy Onubogu, widely regarded as the Queen of Community, Head of Network & Community at BACKED VC and COO of Diversity VC • Tom Foster-Carter, Former COO of Monzo and Founder and CEO of Lollipop • Ben Stephenson, Founder and CEO of travel platform Impala • And Ham Serunjogi, the Co-Founder and CEO of Chipper Cash, our brilliant sponsors of Series 6. We can't thank all of our guests and listeners enough for another amazing Series. If you enjoyed this episode, please make sure you check out the full 40 minutes with each of today's featured guests, as well as our remaining amazing guests across Series 6 and beyond. Enjoyed this episode? We are always keen to hear your thought and ideas for 40 Minute Mentor, so whether you have feedback on any of the existing episodes or ideas for our next Series, please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/40mm or get in touch at james@jbmc.co.uk
Overview: Today, we're going to have a creator roundtable to discuss the African tech ecosystem. We'll discuss the biggest 2021 moments in Africa Tech and our hopes for the ecosystem in 2022. This episode was co-hosted with Justin Norman & Samora Kariuki and recorded on Nov 28, 2021. Companies discussed: Adamantium Fund, The Flip Podcast, Frontier Fintech newsletter, Wave, Andela, Flutterwave, Entrepreneur First, Safeboda, Chipper Cash, FTX, Upstart, Helium Health (Magic Fund), Twiga Foods, Omnibiz, Safaricom, mPharma & Paystack Business concepts discussed: M&A, regulation, employment enablement, & infrastructure moats, Web3 decentralization, fundraising strategy, operator-investors & Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs) strategy Conversation highlights: (01:10) - Adamantium Fund (early stage Africa Tech investment fund) announcement (07:50) - 2021 moments in Africa Tech: Samora, Justin, Bankole & Olumide (1:08:20) - What I would like to see in Africa Tech 2022: Samora, Justin, Bankole & Olumide (1:40:08) - Roundtable creator questions (2:22:30) - 2022 plans: The Flip Podcast, Frontier FinTech newsletter & Afrobility Podcast (2:33:40) - Recommendations & small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Workout dance/aerobics classes & Encanto movie Small win: Talking to people about the about-to-launch Adamantium Africa Tech fund (memo). Great conversations with potential LPs. Exciting! Email olumide@afrobility.com if you're interested in investing Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: The Reckoning (Jacob Soll) Small win: Great holiday over thanksgiving Samora's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: The Box (by Marc Levinson) Small win: Moving to Kenya permanently next week (from Burundi) with my German Shepherd Justin's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Micah Johnson's NFT project Aku Small win: My alma mater the University of Michigan beating Ohio State in football. Interested in investing in Africa Tech. Read about Adamantium fund & contact olumide@afrobility.com for more info Listeners: We'd love to hear from you. Email info@afrobility.com with feedback! Founders & Operators: We'd love to hear about what you're working on, email us at info@afrobility.com Investors: It would be great to link up with you. Contact us at info@afrobility.com Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes on Afrobility.com
Our expert hosts, Ross Gallagher and Gwera Kiwana, are joined by some great guests to talk about the most notable fintech, financial services and banking news from the past week. This week's guests include: Eric Johansson, Tech Editor, Verdict Douglas Mackenzie, Chief Content Officer, Fintech Finance Gustavo Brigatto, Founder and Editor-in-Chief, Startups With soundclips from: Hasan Luongo, VP of Global Marketing, Chipper Cash Oli Cook, CEO & Co-Founder, Ekko We cover the following stories from the fintech and financial services space: Brazil's Nubank targets over $50 billion valuation in U.S. IPO - 6:30 Chipper Cash gets $2B valuation with $150M extension round led by FTX (sound clip from Hasan Luongo, VP of Global Marketing, Chipper Cash) - 18:30 Eco-conscious debit card Ekko launches on first day of COP26 (sound clip from Oli Cook, CEO & Co-Founder, Ekko) - 32:23 Klarna sets collision course with Amazon in reported $1bn Pricerunner deal - 45:05 ING to wind down Payvision - 54:14 New UK fintech Cleva launches money management platform for carers - 56:00 Greenlight Creates a Platform for the 45% Of Parents Who Are Not Confident Investing - 57:28 Quentin Tarantino to offer seven uncut scenes from ‘Pulp Fiction' as NFTs - 58:38 This episode is sponsored by Temenos. Temenos is the world leader in banking software, serving over 3,000 financial institutions. SCALE 2021 is Temenos' dedicated, virtual developer event, including: insights from industry leaders on current technology trends and how they impact banking; customer presentations; product demonstrations and road-map sessions and opportunities to speak with Temenos experts. Whether you're a developer, consultant or business user, discover the latest technology opportunities and how this can help you deliver bigger, better, faster. Register to attend here. (https://tem.mn/3jYLZlm) This episode is sponsored by LetsDeel. There's a better way to hire internationally, and it starts with Deel. Everything from contract creation, record keeping, payments, and full-time employment is all in one place for teams all over the world. Companies anywhere can hire compliantly everywhere thanks to Deel. It's payroll and compliance built for today's worldwide workforce. To learn more, visit letsdeel/11fs (https://www.letsdeel.com/11fs), and redeem an exclusive offer of 3 months free when you hire a contractor and 20% for your first year when you hire an employee. This episode is sponsored by Blueshift Customers expect more from their digital experience and their personal finance is no exception. Blueshift empowers fintech and financial institutions to create secure customer profiles and intentional, relevant experiences for customers. Whether in app, on site, in branch, or anywhere else, Blueshift's SmartHub CDP helps brands like Lending Tree and ClearScore turn data into personalized experiences that increase retention, satisfaction, and revenue. Learn more about the Blueshift at blueshift.com/11fs. Fintech Insider by 11:FS is a podcast dedicated to all things fintech, banking, technology and financial services. Hosted by a rotation of 11:FS experts including David Brear, Simon Taylor, Jason Bates and Sarah Kocianski and joined by a range of brilliant guests, we cover the latest global news, bring you interviews from industry experts or take a deep dive into subject matters such as APIs, AI or digital banking. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and please leave a review Follow us on Twitter: www.twitter.com/fintechinsiders where you can ask the hosts questions, alternatively email podcasts@11fs.com! Special Guests: Douglas Mackenzie, Eric Johansson, and Gustavo Brigatto.
Overview: Today, we're going to talk about SafeBoda - the Ugandan motorbike hailing platform. We'll explore the SafeBoda story across 7 areas: Motorbike hailing platforms in other emerging markets (GoJek) African mobility context SafeBoda's founding & early history Fundraising and growth Product & monetization strategy Competitive positioning & potential exit options Overall outlook This episode was recorded on Oct 31, 2021. Companies discussed: SafeBoda, GoJek, Gokada, Pathao, Allianz X, CRE Ventures, Uber Boda, Bolt / Taxify Boda, Tugende, Chipper Cash, Musha ventures, Go ventures & Gozem Business concepts discussed: Mobility Tech, Pan-Africa expansion, Transportation + FinTech Superapps Conversation highlights: (05:20) - Motorbike hailing platforms in other emerging markets (GoJek) (05:30) - Africa transportation context (07:40) - Uganda country & transportation context (24:50) - Founder background - Rapa Thomson, Maxime Dieudonne, Alastair Sussock (38:20) - SafeBoda's launch (43:36) - Fundraising (52:50) - Geographic expansion (1:15:00) - Product & monetization strategy (1:25:00) - Competition and options for exit (1:37:00) - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (1:48:01) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (1:51:10) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Founders podcast (Dave Senra) & Don't Sweat the Small Stuff . . . and It's All Small Stuff (Richard Carlson) Small win: Was in Chicago hanging out with friends for birthday, Hung out with friends in a Miami night out & installed Windows 11 which is sweet and beautiful Other content: Get.Africa #46 article about SafeBoda's Kenya exit (by Chiagoziem Onyekwena), Twitter conversation (by Stone Twine) about SafeBoda's disintermediation Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: Azonto Ghost song & movie || How Big Tech Runs Tech Projects and the Curious Absence of Scrum Small win: Chelsea FC can't stop winning. Big win. Other content: So, Where did the Popular Uganda Boda Bodas Come From? Listeners: We'd love to hear from you. Email info@afrobility.com with feedback! Founders & Operators: We'd love to hear about what you're working on, email us at info@afrobility.com Investors: It would be great to link up with you to drive the ecosystem forward. Contact us at info@afrobility.com Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes at Afrobility.com
In episode one of this season, we explored how money moves within borders in Africa. In this episode, we explore how money moves across them. [01:27] - Africa is the most expensive region in the world to send money to, according to the World Bank's Remittance Prices Worldwide report. [07:26] - Why are there such limited cross-border payment options within Africa?[08:30] - And why is sending money across borders in Africa so expensive? AZA Finance's Elizabeth Rossiello tells the story of investment in infrastructure and liquidity, or lack thereof.[13:39] - How do you create liquidity across markets and between curriencies?[18:12] - How are fintechs providing better rates and leveraging technology to reduce the cost of cross-border payments?[24:32] - On the chicken and egg game of infrastructure and payment volumes across borders. Ham Serunjogi, Chipper Cash's CEO, shares the companies outlook on making cross-border payments more accessible in Africa.This season is sponsored by MFS Africa.All this season, we're exploring value chains. And in the payments value chain, no fintech has a wider reach on the continent than MFS Africa. Through their network of over 180 partners - MNOs, banks, NGOs, fintechs, and global enterprises - MFS Africa's API hub makes connects over 320 million mobile wallets across 30+ countries in Africa.
Cross border payments are the focus in this edition of the Business Day Spotlight. Our host Mudiwa Gavaza is joined by Pardon Mujakachi, head of strategy and partnerships at Chipper Cash Africa, from Harare. Topics of discussion include: how and why the business started; Chipper Cash's business model; metrics around the current state of the business; how the company has been funded; the market opportunity; and where Chipper Cash hopes to take its business in SA.
In today's 40 Minute Mentor episode, we're joined by Co-founder and CEO of Chipper Cash, Ham Serunjogi. Chipper Cash aren't just our Sponsors for this 40 Minute Mentor Series but are also widely considered to be Africa's most valuable Startup. The team have been on an incredible journey, having launched their borderless way to send money across Africa and beyond, in 8 countries so far, with many more coming soon. Ham's success is testament to the power of taking the road less travelled and despite the amazing success of Chipper Cash, he remains incredibly humble and focused on their ultimate mission to unlock global opportunities and connect Africa – one transaction at a time. We loved having Ham on the podcast and discuss some fascinating topics with him, including: - The tricky side of scaling a mission-driven Rocketship, from making the right hires, to learning how to delegate effectively. - A behind the scenes look on the successful fundraising journey Chipper Cash have been on and how they secured backing from Amazon's Jeff Bezos. - And why perseverance is the real key to success. If you're a Founder looking to scale your business, you'll get priceless insights from Ham in this episode. Enjoyed this episode? We'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode, so please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/40mm or get in touch at james@jbmc.co.uk If you want to find out more about Ham, take a look at his LinkedIn profile – https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamserunjogi/ And if you want to find out more about Chipper Cash, head over to – https://chippercash.com/
The Power of Collaboration in Unlocking Opportunities "Success is layered on top of the success of others," Wiza Jalakasi.In this episode, we host Wiza Jalakasi, VP, Global Developer Relations at Chipper Cash, a lover of Africa Fintech travel, culture and life. Listen to Mark and Wiza as they unpack Africa's tech ecosystem, its players, its current state and how cultural differences impact the system.A lot of precious nuggets in this podcast, enjoy!
Overview: Today, we're going to talk about Chipper Cash - African Fintech payments & remittances player. We'll explore the Chipper story across 6 areas: Intra-Africa remittances context Global remittances (Outside Africa to Africa) context Chipper Cash's launch, early history, growth & fundraising Chipper Cash's Product & monetization strategy Its' competitive positioning, potential exit options End with our overall outlook. This episode was recorded on July 11 & Aug 1, 2021. Companies discussed: Chipper Cash, Venmo, PayPal, Square, Flutterwave, EcoBank, Safaricom, Sendwave, MTN, Airtel, Deciens Capital & Liquid2 Ventures Business concepts discussed: Consumer FinTech (Personal Finance OS) monetization strategy, FinTech exit strategy, Intra-African Remittances, International remittances, Cryptocurrency, Decentralized Finance, Stock trading & closed-loop payment networks Conversation highlights: (01:07) - Why we're talking about Chipper Cash (06:20) - Intra-African trade context (13:12) - Intra- African remittances context (21:40) - Global remittances context (36:50) - Founder backgrounds - Ham Serunjogi and Majid Moujaled (46:06) - Chipper Cash founding and early history (52:30) - Fundraising and Growth - Angel, Series A, B & C (1:07:25) - Product strategy (1:08:25) - Monetization strategy (1:35:24) - Competition - horizontal and vertical (1:45:55) - Potential exit scenarios (1:54:12) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (2:01:32) - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (2:08:40) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide's recommendations, small wins & open questions: Recommendation: Nailing Capital vs Scaling Capital (by Sajith Pai) , Essentialism (by Greg McKeown) & Owning Chinese Companies Is Complicated (by Matt Levine from Bloomberg) Small win: American Express Platinum new benefits: Clear! & Audible! Bankole's recommendations, small wins & open questions: Recommendation: Why startups fail by Tom Eisenmann & How to build an engine to find product market fit by Rahul Vohra Small win: Dinner with friends on a rooftop in Seattle Other content: Chipper Cash pitch at 500 Startups & A columnist Makes Sense of Wall Street Like None Other - The New York Times We'd love to hear from you. Please email info@afrobility.com to share feedback or propose topics you'd like to hear. Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes at Afrobility.com
Episode #11 - Matt Karazin - Professional Technical Interviewee with Taylor Dorsett My guest today is Matt Karazin who is currently a Senior Software Engineer with Chipper Cash. Matt is a long-time Chicago land Engineering Leader and CTO now based out of Denver. - Video: https://youtu.be/hU2lvKOxwzE - Part Two - Technical: https://youtu.be/-AFXVgpoM5k - Audio only: https://ProfessionalTechnicalIntervieweewithTaylorDorsett.podbean.com/e/episode-11-matt-karazin Guest: Matt Karazin - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karazin/ If you enjoyed the show please subscribe, thumbs up, and share the show. Episodes released on the first four Thursdays of each month. Host: Taylor Owen Dorsett - Email: dorsetttaylordev@gmail.com - Twitter: @yodorsett - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taylordorsett/ - Github: https://github.com/TaylorOD - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TaylorDorsett Editor: Dustin Bays - Email: dustin.bays@baysbrass.com - Twitter/Instagram: @Bays4Bays
On this episode 'Laolu, Furo, and Nosa discuss Telda; an Egyptian neobank that raised $5 million pre-seed funding, Chipper Cash's $100 million Series C raise, Paga's latest milestones; hitting 1 trillion Naira in 15 months, and the CBN's plan to launch their own digital currency._Follow us @OpenAfricaPod on Twitter and Instagram and tag us in your conversations! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Despite it being a short week, as always, it was a busy busy time. Our regular Friday producer Grace was under the weather today, so Chris stepped in to help out.And as noted at the top of the episode, we're running a survey. The survey is here, dear Equity family. Please fill it out so that we can keep making the show better.That aside, here's what Danny and Natasha and Alex got into:Stack Overflow has a new owner, and a $1.8 billion sale price that is minting 61 new millionaires in the process.Katerra is dying, as in going to zero. As the company has been a regular feature of TechCrunch coverage, we had to discuss its end. You can also catch up on Greensill here if that's your jam.Back on the acquisition front, Etsy is buying Depop for $1.625 billion. Our take is that the deal makes good sense, even if it is not cheap.Amazon is now open to being sued after an overwhelming number of arbiration claims were filed. Also we get to talk about everyone's favorite judge's writing style.Unit raised money to help teams unionize; Chipper Cash raised a huge round for its fintech product; and One Concern underscores Danny's larger disaster tech thesis by raising $45 million.That's all we got! If you have heard Equity before, take the survey. Thank you!
Despite it being a short week, as always, it was a busy busy time. Our regular Friday producer Grace was under the weather today, so Chris stepped in to help out.And as noted at the top of the episode, we're running a survey. The survey is here, dear Equity family. Please fill it out so that we can keep making the show better.That aside, here's what Danny and Natasha and Alex got into:Stack Overflow has a new owner, and a $1.8 billion sale price that is minting 61 new millionaires in the process.Katerra is dying, as in going to zero. As the company has been a regular feature of TechCrunch coverage, we had to discuss its end. You can also catch up on Greensill here if that's your jam.Back on the acquisition front, Etsy is buying Depop for $1.625 billion. Our take is that the deal makes good sense, even if it is not cheap.Amazon is now open to being sued after an overwhelming number of arbiration claims were filed. Also we get to talk about everyone's favorite judge's writing style.Unit raised money to help teams unionize; Chipper Cash raised a huge round for its fintech product; and One Concern underscores Danny's larger disaster tech thesis by raising $45 million.That's all we got! If you have heard Equity before, take the survey. Thank you!
In this Money Talks segment, we take a deeper look at the startup ecosystem on this island that we call home, then head south to Europe for a constructive look at the European Payments Initiative, and then head further south to Africa for the story of Chipper Cash and the fintech opportunity in Africa. MoneyNeverSleeps is sponsored by PAT Fintech, the training partner that demystifies fintech and digital finance for financial services professionals. MAIN STORIES WE COVERED: Scale Ireland kicked off their membership drive last week, which is an “independent not-for-profit organisation and our mission is to support, represent and advocate on behalf of Irish tech startup and scale-up companies, to create the most advantageous conditions for them to succeed.” 18 Irish Startups to Watch, according to top VCs (Sifted [paywall], 27-May-21) Europe's largest banks plan a joint attack on US payment giants. (Insider Voice via Finch Capital newsletter, 3-May-21) SVB-led $100M investment makes Chipper Cash Africa's ‘most valuable startup' (TechCrunch, 31-May-21) SIDE NOTES AND OTHER STORIES: Curve breaks records with largest-ever equity raise of £9.9m on Crowdcube (Finextra, 31-May-21) With Great Power Comes Great Wealth (Chris Skinner, 2-Jun-21) Eoin's latest read: Atomic Habits by James Clear Pete's latest read: To Sell is Human by Daniel Pink LINKS: Leave a review and subscribe on Podchaser| Apple Podcasts | Spotify| Google| Overcast Check out our MoneyNeverSleeps website Subscribe to our newsletter on Substack Follow us on Twitter Podcast| Twitter Pete| Twitter Eoin Get in touch at info@moneyneversleeps.ie --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/moneyneversleeps/support
Hello and welcome back to Equity, TechCrunch’s venture capital-focused podcast where we unpack the numbers behind the headlines.This is Equity Tuesday, our weekly kickoff that tracks the latest private market news, talks about the coming week, digs into some recent funding rounds and mulls over a larger theme or narrative from the private markets. You can follow the show on Twitter here and myself here.We are back from a long weekend here in America. But not break here in the States can stop the flow of global tech news. So, here's the rundown:The Weekend: Tata bought BigBasket, setting up a fascinating ecommerce war in India. China is cracking down on edtech companies, leading to an IPO freeze. And Wejo is going public via a SPAC. You can read its investor deck here.This Morning: The are a zillion funding rounds in Europe and globally this morning, the start of what could be a super busy week's cycle. Private Equity is buying Cloudera, which is a surprise. Nio had chip shortage issues that impacted its delivery cadence. The Chinese EV company does expect to meet its Q2 delivery goal, however.Funding Rounds: Truebill raised $45 million. Chipper Cash raised $100 million. Zenyum raised $40 million. WeFox raised $650 million. Malt raised $97 million. Sennder raised $80 million. idwall raised $38 million. Belvo raised $43 million. And that was not even close to all the big ones.Riff: Late last week we missed the Sprinklr filing. You can read it here. Quite a number of VCs have money riding on the IPO.Welcome back, America, to the week. It's nice to see you, everyone else. Maybe Robinhood will file this week.
Hello and welcome back to Equity, TechCrunch's venture capital-focused podcast where we unpack the numbers behind the headlines.This is Equity Tuesday, our weekly kickoff that tracks the latest private market news, talks about the coming week, digs into some recent funding rounds and mulls over a larger theme or narrative from the private markets. You can follow the show on Twitter here and myself here.We are back from a long weekend here in America. But not break here in the States can stop the flow of global tech news. So, here's the rundown:The Weekend: Tata bought BigBasket, setting up a fascinating ecommerce war in India. China is cracking down on edtech companies, leading to an IPO freeze. And Wejo is going public via a SPAC. You can read its investor deck here.This Morning: The are a zillion funding rounds in Europe and globally this morning, the start of what could be a super busy week's cycle. Private Equity is buying Cloudera, which is a surprise. Nio had chip shortage issues that impacted its delivery cadence. The Chinese EV company does expect to meet its Q2 delivery goal, however.Funding Rounds: Truebill raised $45 million. Chipper Cash raised $100 million. Zenyum raised $40 million. WeFox raised $650 million. Malt raised $97 million. Sennder raised $80 million. idwall raised $38 million. Belvo raised $43 million. And that was not even close to all the big ones.Riff: Late last week we missed the Sprinklr filing. You can read it here. Quite a number of VCs have money riding on the IPO.Welcome back, America, to the week. It's nice to see you, everyone else. Maybe Robinhood will file this week.
Overview: Today, we're going to talk about Paga, the fintech payments company. We'll discuss its founding, early history, growth, impact & end with our overall outlook. This episode was recorded on May 30, 2021. Companies discussed: Paga, Safaricom (M-Pesa), bKash, GTBank, First Bank, Chipper Cash, MTN, Airtel, FairMoney, Flutterwave, Paystack, Interswitch (Quickteller) & OPay Business concepts discussed: Unbanked population, Financial inclusion, Mobile money, Payment platforms, government regulation, global expansion & telco competition Conversation highlights: (00:40) - What Paga does and why we're talking about it (04:27) - Founder background, Paga founding (07:20) - Payments context at the time of Paga's founding (19:40) - Fundraising - Seed, Series A, B, B2 (24:30) - Expansion plans to Ethiopia, Mexico, Philippines (26:30) - Product strategy and features (40:50) - Monetization and user growth over time (50:46) - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (58:13) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (1:09:00) - Recommendation and small wins Olumide's recommendations, small wins & open questions: Recommendations: Countdown to retirement (part 1, part 2 and part 3), LinkedIn Feed Blocker & Twitter Timeline eradicator Small win: Didier Drogba's message to Chelsea before 2021 CL & Kai Havertz response after winning CL Bankole's recommendations, small wins & open questions: Recommendation: Eni Duro - Olamide, 0809ja for life - Etisalat advert & Correct models are bad Small win: CHELSEA FC ARE CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE! Big win! We'd love to hear from you. Please email info@afrobility.com to share feedback or propose topics you'd like to hear. Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes at Afrobility.com
Overview: Today, we're going to talk about Sendwave - the mobile remittances service that was acquired by WorldRemit in 2020-Aug. We start with the context of African remittances, discuss Sendwave's early history, growth, acquisition by WorldRemit & end with our overall outlook. This episode was recorded on May 2nd, 2021 Companies discussed: Sendwave (Remittances), Wave (Mobile money / Consumer FinTech), WorldRemit, Chipper Cash, Transferwise, Remitly, Western Union, MoneyGram & Safaricom Business concepts discussed: African remittances, personal finance OS, neobanks, Market expansion entry & Consumer Fintech (WealthTech) entry strategy Conversation highlights: (01:15) - What is Sendwave and why we’re talking about it (05:10) - Global Remittances context, size and trends (11:30) - Remittances in Sub-Saharan Africa (21:00) - Sendwave founding and early history (25:15) - Product strategy - UX, fees, disbursement speed, integrations (31:12) - Fundraising - Seed, series A and expansion (43:20) - WorldRemit's $500M acquisition (49:40) - Bankole’s overall thoughts and outlook (58:30) - Olumide’s overall thoughts and outlook (1:09:38) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide’s recommendations, small wins & open questions: Recommendation: Software is eating the rest of the world (By Derin Adebayo): Fabulous. Recommendation: The Simple Path to Wealth (JL Collins). Amazing. Small win: Flew to ATL to catch-up with a friend visiting. Awesome. Bankole’s recommendations, small wins & open questions: Recommendation: Promising Young Woman Small win: Started a garden to grow vegetables Other content: Symplifi & Wave Mobile Money Engineering blog We’d love to hear from you. Please email info@afrobility.com to share feedback or propose topics you’d like to hear. Join our insider mailing list where we get feedback on new episodes & find all episodes at Afrobility.com
Julie sits down with Wiza Jalakasi, VP at Chipper Cash, to discuss:- what Chipper does and what inspired its creation (2:19)- what they're focusing on after their $30M funding round (6:33)- the relationship between the legacy banking industry and new fintech companies in Africa (12:48)- why rent is paid 12 months in advance in Nigeria (19:24)New episodes every Monday and Thursday!For daily updates on the fintech space sent right to your email, subscribe to the FTT Newsletter HERE.For a more in-depth breakdown and analysis of the fintech space, subscribe to the premium newsletter, FTT+, HERE.Follow us on Twitter:FTT - @fintechtoday_Julie - @julieverhage[Theme Song Credit]
In this episode, we sit down with Alicia Levine, COO of Chipper Cash. Chipper Cash is a venture-capital-backed Financial technology company that builds software to enable free and instant peer-to-peer cross-border payments in Africa and Europe, as well as solutions for businesses and merchants to process online and in-store payments.Alicia discusses all things FinTech, tips on creating your dream job, and her thoughts on OKRs as a goal-setting tool. TalentintheCloud's Website: https://talentinthecloud.io/TalentintheCloud's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talentinthecloud/Alicia Levine's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alicialevine/Chipper Cash's Website: https://chippercash.com/?_branch_match_id=726020403006276395Stacey Japhta's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceyjaphta/
News of the day, Chipper Cash
On this episode Laolu, Furo, and Nosa discuss some significant fundraising efforts that have happened in H2 2020; Kudabank's $10 million raise, Paystack's $200 million acquisition, Credpal's $1.5 million raise, Autocheck's $3.4 million raise, and Chipper Cash's $30 million raise. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Today on The Leaders' Brief - According to a report published by the UK's Office for Budget responsibility or OBR, the world's sixth-largest economy is looking at an almost $37 billion spending gap by 2024. While OBR chairman Richard Hughes has said that extra measures have been announced since July totalling £86B or approximately a 114 billion dollars this year and £40B or approximately $53 billion next year that has prevented further deterioration of the country's economy, the UK would need to take strong economic measures to avert a catastrophe. The WHO is co-leading an initiative to distribute about 2 billion vaccine doses in a 'fair and equitable' manner next year. The COVAX initiative being co-developed with Gavi and the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) is expected to provide large scale infrastructural support in distributing COVID-19 vaccines globally. Fintech startup Chipper Cash has secured $30 million in Series B funding from Ribbit Capital and Amazon CEO JEFF Bezos's venture capital fund Bezos Expeditions. With a three million-strong user base in Ghana, Uganda, Nigeria, Tanzania, Rwanda, South Africa, and Kenya, the platform registers an average of 80,000 transactions daily. About egomonk: Website | Facebook | Twitter | LinkedInegomonk is a global intelligence platform delivering asymmetric outcomes by bringing organizations closer to the communities they want to serve and the leaders they wish to influence. If you wish to collaborate with us then email us at contact@egomonk.com.
In this week's episode of the weekly checkout, we digest the DSTV partnership with MTN in the addition of mobile money payment option for the Showmax internet TV service, make sense of recent Crypto bloom and new support on Paypal and Chipper Cash. We look at the recently launched Infinix Note 8 and Note 8i In Kenya and Chromebooks compatibility with Windows native apps. Please enjoy all the stories that happened in the consumer tech space this week. Articles discussed in this episode: 1- How to pay for Showmax and Showmax Pro with MTN Momo? 2- PayPal to support Bitcoin and other cryptos. 3- How to Buy and Sell Bitcoin on Chipper Cash? 4- Infinix Note 8 Finally Launched in Kenya. 5- Chromebooks can now natively run Windows apps.
Continue the conversation on Community, powered by Techpoint Africa. https://community.techpoint.africa/ Watch today's episode on YouTube. https://youtu.be/USanQH7NmYI Read all Techpoint articles referenced on today's episode here. https://techpoint.africa/topics/techpoint-africa-podcast-41/ Email us your feedback at podcast@techpoint.africa. Listen every Friday at 8 AM (WAT). You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, SoundCloud, TuneIn or anywhere else you get your podcasts. Visit www.techpoint.africa for more stories.
Maijid Moujaled takes us on his journey growing up in Accra, Ghana and moving to the US to study computer science and engineering and work for Yahoo and Imgur before embarking on his entrepreneurial journey. After being denied an H1B visa and being forced to leave the U.S., Maijid explains how he joined the Remote Year program and traveled the world for a year with 50 digital nomads. And while on Remote Year, Maijid tells the story of how he built “Chipper Cash”, a no-fee African cross border payment app together with a business partner from Uganda. He explains the challenges raising investment capital for the project and describes his first major breakthrough of getting accepted to the 500 Startups accelerator, followed by his first investor and eventually his path to raising a $2.4 million seed round. Maijid then talks about how he rapidly scaled Chipper Cash, built systems and processes for a remote-first company, and how he is hiring and managing a distributed team. He then shares his thoughts on an exit strategy, potential competition, and his 10-year vision for Chipper Cash. Maijid also talks about his personal productivity habits, his super simple morning routine, and the #1 thing he does for stress reduction. He then discusses his travel experiences, his love for Brazil, and the primary way he connects with locals when he can't speak the language. He concludes by recommending his top book, app, podcast and shares his favorite travel destinations. Full Show Notes Available at www.TheMaverickShow.com
African fintech has taken center stage for the Catalyst Fund, a JP Morgan Chase and Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation-backed accelerator that provides mentorship and non-equity funding to emerging markets startups. The organization announced its 2019 startup cohort and three out of the four finance ventures — Chipper Cash, Salutat and Turaco — have an Africa focus (Brazil-based venture Diin, was the fourth).