Podcasts about alex oh

Hello, my Kiddos,   I'm back with a new conversation with Alex Oh and Nikolay Borisov - they are founders business partners of Ohlay - SOCIAL JOURNALING & WORKPLACE CULTURE. Its mission is to build more meaningful connections through social journaling and shared conversation. Our shared vision is to spark a cultural shift in the way that people connect with themselves, with others, and within their work. Ohlay is a culture consultancy and social journaling studio based in Los Angeles. We explore the intersection of people development, design thinking, and social healing to guide people to live and work with greater personal passion and camaraderie. We are exploring different channels and possibilities for engagement and communication to co-create communities, platforms, and content that reflect the members and users that share it. We share conversations, community gatherings, and tools for the art of connection. Our first exploration is into the world of social journaling. Nikolay -  I believe Social Journaling (SJ) will change the world. SJ is a tool we developed at Ohlay that is a facilitated process for building equity, empathy, and effectiveness in group settings. This includes partnerships, organizations, and communities (anywhere humans are present, SJ can help!) Join us for our next session or inquire about bringing Social Journaling to your people. #workplace #culture #corporateculture # journey https://zez.am/chombita_chronicles https://www.oh-lay.com/ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/yovy-d/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/yovy-d/support

Jasmine Control, a new hire at a shady governmental agency called The Department of Variance, went through an extended supernatural orientation that ended with her manager, Yellow Access, trying to meld the minds of every worker in the office. To save her friend Scarlet Jaunt from death at the hands of her new boss, Jasmine used her newly discovered psychic abilities to jump into the past, to a point where Scarlet was alive. She miscalculated, and now she's stuck in Scarlet's memories from 10 years ago. This season picks up with Jasmine, Scarlet, Violet, and Daryll visiting the woods to see a lunar eclipse after their senior year of high school, ten years prior to the events of season one. But something else is lurking in the woods with them. Something…midwestern. The friends will have to figure out what's going on and put a stop to it if they ever want to escape, and if Jasmine ever wants to return to her normal life. Check out our website for more info! Join our Patreon for early access! CREDITS: Cast of episode 1: Cody Heath, Jesse Syratt, Em Carlson, Tatiana Gefter, Dexter Howard, Lena Garcia. Art by NerdVolKurisu Written, scored, edited, and narrated by Rat Grimes. Transcripts available in episode notes at somewhereohio.com (CWs: alcohol, food, smoking, derealization) ___ TRANSCRIPT: ORANGE: It's just as Green said: the stairway to heaven is always moving. I figured I was on the first step when I heard the cat in the diner. I was heading to a little city in Michigan. I know, I know; “Orange Splice? In the field? Shouldn't you be behind a desk at the Commission signing off on quarterlies?” But on some cases I can't help myself. I can tell you that Red's disciplinary report's gonna have a lot of Orange in it. So this little city in Michigan, an industrial husk of a place. Full of slick palms and the poor souls wriggling between their fingers. I packed my bag and blew the joint. I slept in my rumbling hatchback on the way, and I ate and bathed as the great American trucker does. As I crested the overpass bend on the final leg of the drive, I saw a city blooming with rot. Squat brick piles wheezing into the streets, oily sunlight, cars bleeding rust into the earth. Plumes of gray hovered over the place, like cotton soaked with kerosene. One little spark and the whole thing could blow. Maybe we'd all be better off if it did. Maybe we're better off forgetting places like this. Scooping out what little's worth saving and dumping the rest. Writing them off as a loss–another failure in the long lineage of midwestern decline. Or maybe it's not that simple. I wasn't going to Deerland to set it ablaze, after all. I was being led there for something else. And so I rode up through the boiling roadkill highways of vulture county, past towns so small you could hear every single prayer on a quiet night. By antique malls decked with the heraldry of genocide. Under billboards letting you know you're fucked before you even get there: Hell is real, and it's about 25 miles that way. I was going up there to find Olivia, now designated Jasmine Control by the Department. First saw her face on a milk carton, and I didn't even know they still did that. Maybe they don't. I slid downstairs that morning in a haze, a little box of strawberry milk I'd bought from the grocer in my hand. The milk itself didn't last long. I turned the empty carton over in my hand, then unfolded and tore open the bottom. I held it up to my ear and listened for the ocean. *sounds as room ambience becomes waves and various sounds* ORANGE: I heard through and beyond the carton, through my wall and the early pink light outside, through misty pines and hundreds of miles of the big flat nothing. Through and before my life, and after too, and into a hip spot in Deerland, a coffeeshop on the corner that used to be three apartments. The tip jar on the counter was a glass milk jug filled with quarters and crumpled singles. And taped to the side was a photo and one word: MISSING—Olivia…Olivia. I exited the highway on the right, tires sizzling down the griddlehot blacktop of the narrow streets of Deerland, Michigan. I'd need somewhere to stay in this weather. Cruised a while and found a place overlooking a decaying mall: Hotel 7. One better than Motel 6, the owner assured me through a pushbroom mustache. One worse than Super 8, I thought. Next I needed food. I was wading through thick waves of exhaustion by then, rolling slowly but surely onward, bowled over by the blindfolds and needles of fate. On the way to my room, I stepped into a corridor dripping with window unit condensation and lined with posters. MISSING. A face repeated in nine squares. I shook my head and stared deep into the paper. GIRL MISSING. I got caught on the origin of the word, germanic, maybe dutch. Gone, disappeared, vanished, typically without a trace. To be absent. In absentia. Guilt without a face, death without a body. Holes in the ground, gaps in memory. The girl on the flyer opened her mouth and said something I couldn't hear. Her breath caught in the humid air, suspended green in the neon glow overhead. I fumbled with my lighter in my pocket. I flicked it on and patted my coat pockets. No pack. I hadn't had a smoke in two years. That'd change soon. High above, rising over the fire escape and ascending into the sick bruised sky, I saw two glowing spheres. The kid's breath vanished and so did I. Once again back at my kitchen table, soggy milk carton in my hand. If you were in my place, Green, what would you have done with your life? If you saw what was coming. Dive headfirst or take a dive? Deerland or Des Moines? After that first vision, I made the choice quicker than I'd like to admit. I dove, deep and breathless, into the variant night. Wait, let me back up. I'll tell you how it happened chronologically–ontologically–not how my brain stitched it together. See, in my head I had already been to Deerland via milky astral lanes, already tried the coffee and divined the lines in the sidewalks. I was three days ahead of myself. Psychic lag. Pages colored in without lines. I would be there in three days' time. I would seek out Olivia, this missing girl, and a creeping feeling told me there'd be more to it than that. More Departmental business, which meant more paperwork. Figured I might as well get packing, I was in for a long night. *** NARRATOR 1 (italics until Nyarrator/Narrator 2 shows up in ep 8 are Narrator 1, played by Rat): Jasmine looked around the jeep, trying to center herself. She was lightheaded, dizzy. She couldn't tell if it was a side effect of the binding agonist or if this situation was just too much for her mind to handle. Psionic nausea. OLIVIA: Is this how Green felt all the time? It was not. ASH: Look, Jasmine, you don't know me, but I'm going to help you however I can from the wire. I used to work for the Department, as well. Assigned name Ash Chorus, stationed with the Dead Letter Office, then the…the division of Fictobiology. I've been sort of…telling your story for you, as strange as that sounds. I may have gotten a few things wrong, but I think I captured the heart of it. And I will continue to do so. I only ask one thing of you, and recommend another: do not mention me to anyone, and do not tell the others what you've done. ALEX: Dude, who are you talking to? OLIVIA: Oh, it's just my mom making sure we got here okay. You know how she is. ALEX: I guess. We met a couple times, right? Whatever, we're almost at the clearing. This is gonna be epic. OLIVIA: Yeah, uhh “epic.” Hold on. *quieter, on phone with Ash* What the hell is going on? How do I get back to my time? ASH: I…I'm uncertain. What I do know is this: you're in a memory, not in the past. For the time being, dispense with any theorizing and stick to what we know for sure: you, Jasmine, are in a memory from a little over 10 years ago, and that goo you drank that let you do this has worn off.  Now you can't get out—a jaunt gone wrong—and you're just going to have to live through this memory, however long it lasts. OLIVIA: I guess that's why it was Scarlet's last resort when I was being chased. But still, she was dying, I had to do something! ASH: I know, I know. Keep your phone with you, and hold it to your ear if you need to talk to me. I'll help however I can in my limited capacity. Now hang up, you've been on the line too long and Scarlet's getting suspicious. OLIVIA: Okay, okay. *click, then quietly:* How did they know all that? The simplest explanation was that Ash Chorus was not real. They were as much a phantasm as this place, this metastatic memory structure. Like the larks, the butterflies, bigfoot. OLIVIA: They're…you're fictobiological. Sterling would have a heart attack. Wait, so you're like a cryptid or something? Can you tell me if Nessie's real? In a sense, Olivia was right. But now was not the time to speak with the air. Her compatriots were growing concerned. OLIVIA: Fine, I'll stop talking to the first fictional person I've ever heard. Normal world. Olivia recalled the advice of her father: the best way out is through. All she needed to do was live through this moment. This wasn't the past, and she had no way of altering what happened here. The only thing that could change was her mind. NADIA: Is she good? She's muttering and looks like she's gonna hurl. OLIVIA: Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Do you have anything to drink? DARYLL: Ch'yeah, dig this. Daryll took one hand off the jeep's wheel and leaned forward, reaching into a bag at Violet's–Nadia's–feet. He rifled around and pulled out a familiar blue and white can. He tossed one blindly into the back, and Jasmine fumbled the catch. Scarlet–Alex–snagged the can and cracked it open, taking a long sip before handing it to Jasmine and wiping the foam from her mouth. ALEX: Hope you like the bitter stuff. It was not the bitter stuff, it was gas station party fodder. OLIVIA: Ugh. I was thinking more like, water? Or Gatorade? *pause* Hey, wait. You're eightee—I mean we're 18! And we're in a car. With open containers. This is…this is bad. ALEX: Calm yourself, Liv, it's fiiine. We're basically in college now. Have you seriously never had *emphasized “A”* A beer? OLIVIA: I mean, I have, I like wine more, but— ALEX: Man, you're like 30 years old. Just let loose and enjoy the night. What, are you gonna tell my mom I brought some weed, too? Jesus. DARYLL: You are kinda harshing the mood here, Oli. OLIVIA: Whatever, but if we're going to do nicknames, can you not call me “Oli”? NADIA: Yeah, like who even is Oli? How about Livia? Via? DARYLL: “Vita means life” *Alex laughs* OLIVIA: How about this: we're going out in the woods, we're drinking illegally and, I assume, trespassing. So what if we had, like, codenames? ALEX: You remind me a lot of my cousin, Liv. He's five. *to the others* I don't know why we brought her, she just sometimes— OLIVIA, ignoring Scar: I'll be…hmmm…my shirt's yellow, so I'll be Jasmine. DARYLL: Aladdin, sick. OLIVIA: You can be Violet, Nadia, because you love purple and black. NADIA: I do. OLIVIA: And Scarlet for Alex, because. Hair. ALEX: Rude, fuck off. I dyed it for a reason, asshole. DARYLL, holding back a laugh: Nah, dude, it's pure gold. OLIVIA: And you, uhhh… DARYLL: Fuckface. NADIA: Ew ALEX: Fuckface Killer. OLIVIA: I was thinking something like— DARYLL: Vegeta! NADIA: No. ALEX: Nope. OLIVIA: What? DARYLL: You could just like…call me Daryll. OLIVIA: Ugh. Nevermind. I just thought it would be easier…forget it. The jeep's tires crunched and spun gravel as the four sped down unpaved roads through the trees. Hung overhead were dark boughs, holding the high heat of the night in their leaves. A ranger station hoved into view not far ahead. A small pickup rumbled in the driveway, its headlights illuminating the forest beyond the trail. DARYLL: Shit, shit, dump the open cans. Daryll threw the remaining beers into the backseat. Alex nestled the cans at her feet and covered them with a blanket. She fished in her pocket for the worst joint ever rolled and stuffed it in her sock. RANGER: How are you folks doing tonight? Daryll squinted against the light beaming at his face. DARYLL: Uhh, do you need my license? RANGER: No, I'm not a police officer. I'm just here to make sure you guys stay safe. DARYLL: Oh, yeah. Dumb. Sorry, sorry sir. RANGER: You wouldn't have any fireworks in there, would you? No sparklers or firecrackers? We been having trouble with some rowdy teens lately, almost started a forest fire last week. Wouldn't be you, would it? DARYLL: No, no. Not in here! We're not really firework people, you know? RANGER: And of course you wouldn't have any illicit substances, now would you? The ranger lifted her flashlight and shone it through the back windows. Alex winced and sat upright, Olivia put on a smile and waved. Nadia's eyes didn't leave her iphone. The ranger looked vaguely familiar to Olivia, but she couldn't place why. The ranger pressed her hand against her forehead and inhaled sharply. DARYLL: Y-you okay? RANGER: Ope, sorry, just a headache. Think we got a storm coming on, with the humidity and all. Messing with my sinuses. All the pollen doesn't help any. *pause* RANGER: I see you folks have a telescope. You all out here for the eclipse? DARYLL: Yeah we're looking for a place to set up the scope. RANGER: Gotcha. Well, the public gathering is back that way down the trail. You passed the parking lot about a mile back. Bout half mile ahead, the trail's off-limits after hours. Road's closed. So you folks ought to head back thataway. DARYLL: Oh, okay, sweet, thank you. We'll do that. RANGER: Enjoy the eclipse, then. And watch out for rain. DARYLL: Oh, we will for sure! I hate getting wet, so… RANGER, puzzled: Huh. All righty then. *ranger leaves* ALEX: That was hella close. DARYLL: Dude I sweat through my shirt. OLIVIA: We should probably drive back to the parking lot, then, right? DARYLL: No way, dude, we just had a clean getaway. We'll just have to find a place to ditch the Jeep. *jeep shuts off* DARYLL: Guess it'll be on foot from here. *** *chain shakes* OLIVIA: Says “no entry.” DARYLL: Olivia, try to keep up. That's why we're going there. Gonna be no one else around. ALEX: Don't be a narc, Liv. *sounds of footsteps, crunching gravel* ALEX: Oh, hey, this is the spot? NADIA: Gonna be kinda hard to see the eclipse from here, but whatever. DARYLL: Nah, it's up ahead still. Down the trail and across the stream. Then we'll be at the clearing. ALEX: Cool, come on Nadia. Want to like…walk together or whatever? Nadia had slipped on a pair of clunky headphones, nodding her head to some distorted guitars and guttural screams. A band of red spread across Alex's nose and cheeks. ALEX: Chhh, whatever, dude. Come on Liv, let's go. *** *blanket flaps, grassy footsteps: ALEX: You guys want a slim jim? Sour patch kids? DARYLL: Slim jim anybody? I got slim jims here! 2 for 5 or 3 for 5 or 4 for 5! OLIVIA: So this is just outside of…where again? DARYLL: The DL, duh? I guess you don't live in town, so. We're like 20 minutes out from your place, 30 minutes from Ohio. It's pure Michigan, baby. ALEX: I'm actually kind of…excited for this? NADIA: Probably the beer talking. ALEX: I had one sip before we had to toss ‘em. NADIA: I mean, it's cool and all. I'm mostly here for the hangs, though. OLIVIA: The weather's perfect for it. Clear sky, hot summer night. Where'd you get the telescope? I assume it's not yours, Alex. ALEX: Dude, it's your telescope. Are you sure we don't need to take you to urgent care or something? Right, her dad bought it for her sixteenth birthday. Had her initials on the case. OLIVIA: O.H.M… He set up a spot in the backyard for stargazing. She remembered the tall grass tickling her ankles, cicadas winding down their song in the cherry blossoms, condensation rolling down the side of a glass. The stray cat rubbing against her leg. She remembered the drawings of the constellations in her book. OLIVIA: Cygnus, Aquila, Heracles… She had snapped one of the tripod's legs when he left. He stopped by and taped it back together while she was at school. OLIVIA: Oh, yeah, didn't recognize it for…some reason. Nadia sat down first, reclining on her elbows and looking up through the sparse branches overhead. Olivia sat across from her on another blanket, and Daryll leaned against a wide trunk with a cold drink in hand. DARYLL: Which one is that? OLIVIA: The constellation? I think…the teapot? It might be part of Sagittarius. NADIA: It is. DARYLL: Oh, is it??  How would you even know? NADIA: Googled it, duhh. Alex looked over the three of them, equations spinning around in her head as she tried to calculate whether it would be too obvious to sit next to Nadia. She would've liked to, but then Liv and Daryll would be like ‘hey, why didn't you take the empty blanket, you nerd?' and then maybe Nadia would be weirded out. But if she sat on the empty blanket, then Daryll would have to choose one person to share a blanket with, and what if he sat with her? And— OLIVIA, quietly: Stop overthinking and go sit with Nadia. ALEX: Oh, haHA, yeah, totally. Sorry, I was just thinking about…basketball. *quietly, to herself* Basketball? That's the kind of game I've got?? Alex took her spot next to Nadia. She could hear Nadia's music bleeding through the foam pads of her headphones. She was sweating. But that was fine, right? It's hot out, people sweat. And it's not like she was sitting that close to Nadia. Oh god, was she sitting weirdly far away? Like she was trying to avoid Nadia? Alex took a deep breath and scooted a little closer. Nadia paid no attention to this or to much of anything that Alex was doing. She was locked in to the music. The crickets were humming in the tall grass nearby, spiders dangled and spun in the branches, tadpoles darted down a trickling stream. All was quiet, for a moment. OLIVIA: Wonder if it's about to happen. ALEX: It's uber dark out here. DARYLL: Yeah dude, moon's about to be gone-zo. ALEX: It's time already? DARYLL: Dude, this space shit owns. I can see the craters through this thing. OLIVIA: Ooh, let me see! ALEX: Whoa, you can see from here. There's just a little sliver. NADIA: Kinda makes me feel sick. Like knowing it's really out there, and we're here, small and alone. DARYLL: Aaaand it's gone. Complete darkness enveloped the group. The humid air clung heavy as wet gowns around them. The moon had vanished behind the shadow of the planet, and even the insects, birds, and Nadia's headphones hushed their songs in reverent silence. OLIVIA: Gosh, I forget how dark it can get out in the country. ALEX: You basically live in a farmhouse, dude. You're in “the country” all the time. OLIVIA: It's just…I'm in my room a lot I guess. Don't get out to see the stars much. ALEX: I see the taco bell drive through more often than stars. DARYLL: Fuuuuck, now I'm hungry. The gloom that surrounded them did not relent, even long past when the shadow should have given way back to the gentle glow of reflected light. OLIVIA: It should be back by now. ALEX: Give it a sec. OLIVIA: And where are the constellations? NADIA: The sky's like a black curtain. ALEX: Probably clouds. OLIVIA: No, it was clear when we got here. DARYLL: You think the moon's broken? Hey, try taking it out, blowing in it, and putting it back in again. Olivia could feel her pulse hammering in her throat. It was hot before, but the air was growing hotter, and the cool breeze that rustled the nettles and ivies was still. She was slick with perspiration, and the moisture in the air had her struggling for breath. Her eyes darted in every direction, looking for some landmark or image to anchor herself, but found nothing. In the total blackout, they could be anywhere: a basement, the bottom of the ocean. Or they could be nowhere, the great void between blasted stellar remains and dead planets. NADIA: It is weird, right? ALEX: Hey, uh, Olivia, check that telescope. Do you know what's going on? You're the space nerd, right? OLIVIA: There's nothing there. NADIA: What do you mean, “nothing there?” ALEX: Well, it's there we just can't see it, right? *silence* ALEX: …right? It must be coming, the thing that Scarlet and Violet—Alex and Nadia—saw all those years ago. OLIVIA: No, it can't be. Olivia knew, but they didn't know, couldn't know, that this would change them. NADIA: Oh, hey, there it is. ALEX: Finally! Hey, wait. What's…why is there… DARYLL: That's fucked up. That these next few hours would be the worst of their lives. OLIVIA: O-oh my god. There's…there's another. There are two of them, just hanging in the sky. Two moons. END

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About AlexAlex holds a Ph.D. in Computer Science and Engineering from UC San Diego, and has spent over a decade building high-performance, robust data management and processing systems. As an early member of a couple fast-growing startups, he's had the opportunity to wear a lot of different hats, serving at various times as an individual contributor, tech lead, manager, and executive. He also had a brief stint as a Cloud Economist with the Duckbill Group, helping AWS customers save money on their AWS bills. He's currently a freelance data engineering consultant, helping his clients build, manage, and maintain their data infrastructure. He lives in Los Angeles, CA.Links Referenced: Company website: https://bitsondisk.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexras LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexras/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: I come bearing ill tidings. Developers are responsible for more than ever these days. Not just the code that they write, but also the containers and the cloud infrastructure that their apps run on. Because serverless means it's still somebody's problem. And a big part of that responsibility is app security from code to cloud. And that's where our friend Snyk comes in. Snyk is a frictionless security platform that meets developers where they are - Finding and fixing vulnerabilities right from the CLI, IDEs, Repos, and Pipelines. Snyk integrates seamlessly with AWS offerings like code pipeline, EKS, ECR, and more! As well as things you're actually likely to be using. Deploy on AWS, secure with Snyk. Learn more at Snyk.co/scream That's S-N-Y-K.co/screamCorey: DoorDash had a problem. As their cloud-native environment scaled and developers delivered new features, their monitoring system kept breaking down. In an organization where data is used to make better decisions about technology and about the business, losing observability means the entire company loses their competitive edge. With Chronosphere, DoorDash is no longer losing visibility into their applications suite. The key? Chronosphere is an open-source compatible, scalable, and reliable observability solution that gives the observability lead at DoorDash business, confidence, and peace of mind. Read the full success story at snark.cloud/chronosphere. That's snark.cloud slash C-H-R-O-N-O-S-P-H-E-R-E.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I am joined this week by a returning guest, who… well, it's a little bit complicated and more than a little bittersweet. Alex Rasmussen was a principal cloud economist here at The Duckbill Group until he committed an unforgivable sin. That's right. He gave his notice. Alex, thank you for joining me here, and what have you been up to, traitor?Alex: [laugh]. Thank you for having me back, Corey.Corey: Of course.Alex: At time of recording, I am restarting my freelance data engineering business, which was dormant for the sadly brief time that I worked with you all at The Duckbill Group. And yeah, so that's really what I've been up to for the last few days. [laugh].Corey: I want to be very clear that I am being completely facetious when I say this. When someone is considering, “Well, am I doing what I really want to be doing?” And if the answer is no, too many days in a row, yeah, you should find something that aligns more with what you want to do. And anyone who's like, “Oh, you're leaving? Traitor, how could you do that?” Yeah, those people are trash. You don't want to work with trash.I feel I should clarify that this is entirely in jest and I could not be happier that you are finding things that are more aligned with aspects of what you want to be doing. I am serious when I say that, as a company, we are poorer for your loss. You have been transformative here across a number of different axes that we will be going into over the course of this episode.Alex: Well, thank you very much, I really appreciate that. And I came to a point where I realized, you know, the old saying, “You don't know what you got till it's gone?” I realized, after about six months of working with Duckbill Group that I missed building stuff, I missed building data systems, I missed being a full-time data person. And I'm really excited to get back to that work, even though I'll definitely miss working with everybody on the team. So yeah.Corey: There are a couple of things that I found really notable about your time working with us. One of them was that even when you wound up applying to work here, you were radically different than—well, let's be direct here—than me. We are almost polar opposites in a whole bunch of ways. I have an eighth-grade education; you have a PhD in computer science and engineering from UCSD. And you are super-deep into the world of data, start to finish, whereas I have spent my entire career on things that are stateless because I am accident prone, and when you accidentally have a problem with the database, you might not have a company anymore, but we can all laugh as we reprovision the web server fleet.We just went in very different directions as far as what we found interesting throughout our career, more or less. And we were not quite sure how it was going to manifest in the context of cloud economics. And I can say now that we have concluded the experiment, that from my perspective, it went phenomenally well. Because the exact areas that I am weak at are where you excel. And, on some level, I would say that you're not necessarily as weak in your weak areas as I am in mine, but we want to reinforce it and complementing each other rather than, “Well, we now have a roomful of four people who are all going to yell at you about the exact same thing.” We all went in different directions, which I thought was really neat.Alex: I did too. And honestly, I learned a tremendous, tremendous amount in my time at Duckbill Group. I think the window into just how complex and just how vast the ecosystem of services within AWS is, and kind of how they all ping off of each other in these very complicated ways was really fascinating, fascinating stuff. But also just an insight into just what it takes to get stuff done when you're talking with—you know, so most of my clientele to date have been small to medium-sized businesses, you know, small as two people; as big as a few hundred people. But I wasn't working with Fortune 1000 companies like Duckbill Group regularly does, and an insight into just, number one, what it takes to get things done inside of those organizations, but also what it takes to get things done with AWS when you're talking about, you know, for instance, contracts that are tens, or hundreds of millions of dollars in total contract value. And just what that involves was just completely eye-opening for me.Corey: From my perspective, what I found—I guess, in hindsight, it should have been more predictable than it was—but you talk about having a background and an abiding passion for the world of data, and I'm sitting here thinking, that's great. We have all this data in the form of the Cost and Usage Reports and the bills, and I forgot the old saw that yeah, if it fits in RAM, it's not a big data problem. And yeah, in most cases, what we have tends to fit in RAM. I guess you don't tend to find things interesting until Microsoft Excel gives up and calls uncle.Alex: I don't necessarily know that that's true. I think that there are plenty of problems to be had in the it fits in RAM space, precisely because so much of it fits in RAM. And I think that, you know, particularly now that, you know—I think there's it's a very different world that we live in from the world that we lived in ten years ago, where ten years ago—Corey: And right now I'm talking to you on a computer with 128 gigs of RAM, and it—Alex: Well, yeah.Corey: —that starts to look kind of big data-y.Alex: Well, not only that, but I think on the kind of big data side, right? When you had to provision your own Hadoop cluster, and after six months of weeping tears of blood, you managed to get it going, right, at the end of that process, you went, “Okay, I've got this big, expensive thing and I need this group of specialists to maintain it all. Now, what the hell do I do?” Right? In the intervening decade, largely due to the just crushing dominance of the public clouds, that problem—I wouldn't call that problem solved, but for all practical purposes, at all reasonable scales, there's a solution that you can just plug in a credit card and buy.And so, now the problem, I think, becomes much more high level, right, than it used to be. Used to be talking about how well you know, how do I make this MapReduce job as efficient as it possibly can be made? Nobody really cares about that anymore. You've got a query planner; it executes a query; it'll probably do better than you can. Now, I think the big challenges are starting to be more in the area of, again, “How do I know what I have? How do I know who's touched it recently? How do I fix it when it breaks? How do I even organize an organization that can work effectively with data at petabyte scale and say anything meaningful about it?”And so, you know, I think that the landscape is shifting. One of the reasons why I love this field so much is that the landscape is shifting very rapidly and as soon as we think, “Ah yes. We have solved all of the problems.” Then immediately, there are a hundred new problems to solve.Corey: For me, what I found, I guess, one of the most eye-opening things about having you here is your actual computer science background. Historically, we have biased for folks who have come up from the ops side of the world. And that lends itself to a certain understanding. And, yes, I've worked with developers before; believe it or not, I do understand how folks tend to think in that space. I have not a complete naive fool when it comes to these things.But what I wasn't prepared for was the nature of our internal, relatively casual conversations about a bunch of different things, where we'll be on a Zoom chat or something, and you will just very casually start sharing your screen, fire up a Jupyter Notebook and start writing code as you're talking to explain what it is you're talking about and watching it render in real time. And I'm sitting here going, “Huh, I can't figure out whether we should, like, wind up giving him a raise or try to burn him as a witch.” I could really see it going either way. Because it was magic and transformative from my perspective.Alex: Well, thank you. I mean, I think that part of what I am very grateful for is that I've had an opportunity to spend a considerable period of time in kind of both the academic and industrial spaces. I got a PhD, basically kept going to school until somebody told me that I had to stop, and then spent a lot of time at startups and had to do a lot of different kinds of work just to keep the wheels attached to the bus. And so, you know, when I arrived at Duckbill Group, I kind of looked around and said, “Okay, cool. There's all the stuff that's already here. That's awesome. What can I do to make that better?” And taking my lens so to speak, and applying it to those problems, and trying to figure out, like, “Okay, well as a cloud economist, what do I need to do right now that sucks? And how do I make it not suck?”Corey: It probably involves a Managed NAT Gateway.Alex: Whoa, God. And honestly, like, I spent a lot of time developing a bunch of different tools that were really just there in the service of that. Like, take my job, make it easier. And I'm really glad that you liked what you saw there.Corey: It was interesting watching how we wound up working together on things. Like, there's a blog post that I believe is out by the time this winds up getting published—but if not, congratulations on listening to this, you get a sneak preview—where I was looking at the intelligent tiering changes in pricing, where any object below 128 kilobytes does not have a monitoring charge attached to it, and above it, it does. And it occurred to me on a baseline gut level that, well wait a minute, it feels like there is some object sizes, where regardless of how long it lives in storage and transition to something cheaper, it will never quite offset that fee. So, instead of having intelligent tiering for everything, that there's some cut-off point below which you should not enable intelligent tiering because it will always cost you more than it can possibly save you.And I mentioned that to you and I had to do a lot of articulating with my hands because it's all gut feelings stuff and this stuff is complicated at the best of times. And your response was, “Huh.” Then it felt like ten minutes later you came back with a multi-page blog post written—again—in a Python notebook that has a dynamic interactive graph that shows the breakeven and cut-off points, a deep dive math showing exactly where in certain scenarios it is. And I believe the final takeaway was somewhere between 148 to 161 kilobytes, somewhere in that range is where you want to draw the cut-off. And I'm just looking at this and marveling, on some level.Alex: Oh, thanks. To be fair, it took a little bit more than ten minutes. I think it was something where it kind of went through a couple of stages where at first I was like, “Well, I bet I could model that.” And then I'm like, “Well, wait a minute. There's actually, like—if you can kind of put the compute side of this all the way to the side and just remove all API calls, it's a closed form thing. Like, you can just—this is math. I can just describe this with math.”And cue the, like, Beautiful Mind montage where I'm, like, going onto the whiteboard and writing a bunch of stuff down trying to remember the point intercept form of a line from my high school algebra days. And at the end, we had that blog post. And the reason why I kind of dove into that headfirst was just this, I have this fascination for understanding how all this stuff fits together, right? I think so often, what you see is a bunch of little point things, and somebody says, “You should use this at this point, for this reason.” And there's not a lot in the way of synthesis, relatively speaking, right?Like, nobody's telling you what the kind of underlying thing is that makes it so that this thing is better in these circumstances than this other thing is. And without that, it's a bunch of, kind of, anecdotes and a bunch of kind of finger-in-the-air guesses. And there's a part of that, that just makes me sad, fundamentally, I guess, that humans built all of this stuff; we should know how all of it fits together. And—Corey: You would think, wouldn't you?Alex: Well, but the thing is, it's so enormously complicated and it's been developed over such an enormously long period of time, that—or at least, you know, relatively speaking—it's really, really hard to kind of get that and extract it out. But I think when you do, it's very satisfying when you can actually say like, “Oh no, no, we've actually done—we've done the analysis here. Like, this is exactly what you ought to be doing.” And being able to give that clear answer and backing it up with something substantial is, I think, really valuable from the customer's point of view, right, because they don't have to rely on us kind of just doing the finger-in-the-air guess. But also, like, it's valuable overall. It extends the kind of domain where you don't have to think about whether or not you've got the right answer there. Or at least you don't have to think about it as much.Corey: My philosophy has always been that when I have those hunches, they're useful, and it's an indication that there's something to look into here. Where I think it goes completely off the rails is when people, like, “Well, I have a hunch and I have this belief, and I'm not going to evaluate whether or not that belief is still one that is reasonable to hold, or there has been perhaps some new information that it would behoove me to figure out. Nope, I've just decided that I know—I have a hunch now and that's enough and I've done learning.” That is where people get into trouble.And I see aspects of it all the time when talking to clients, for example. People who believe things about their bill that at one point were absolutely true, but now no longer are. And that's one of those things that, to be clear, I see myself doing this. This is not something—Alex: Oh, everybody does, yeah.Corey: —I'm blaming other people for it all. Every once in a while I have to go on a deep dive into our own AWS bill just to reacquaint myself with an understanding of what's going on over there.Alex: Right.Corey: And I will say that one thing that I was firmly convinced was going to happen during your tenure here was that you're a data person; hiring someone like you is the absolute most expensive thing you can ever do with respect to your AWS bill because hey, you're into the data space. During your tenure here, you cut the bill in half. And that surprises me significantly. I want to further be clear that did not get replaced by, “Oh, yeah. How do you cut your AWS bill by so much?” “We moved everything to Snowflake.” No, we did not wind up—Alex: [laugh].Corey: Just moving the data somewhere else. It's like, at some level, “Great. How do I cut the AWS bill by a hundred percent? We migrate it to GCP.” Technically correct; not what the customer is asking for.Alex: Right? Exactly, exactly. I think part of that, too—and this is something that happens in the data part of the space more than anywhere else—it's easy to succumb to shiny object syndrome, right? “Oh, we need a cloud data warehouse because cloud data warehouse, you know? Snowflake, most expensive IPO in the history of time. We got to get on that train.”And, you know, I think one of the things that I know you and I talked about was, you know, where should all this data that we're amassing go? And what should we be optimizing for? And I think one of the things that, you know, the kind of conclusions that we came to there was, well, we're doing some stuff here, that's kind of designed to accelerate queries that don't really need to be accelerated all that much, right? The difference between a query taking 500 milliseconds and 15 seconds, from our point of view, doesn't really matter all that much, right? And that realization alone, kind of collapsed a lot of technical complexity, and that, I will say we at Duckbill Group still espouse, right, is that cloud cost is an architectural problem, it's not a right-sizing your instances problem. And once we kind of got past that architectural problem, then the cost just sort of cratered. And honestly, that was a great feeling, to see the estimate in the billing console go down 47% from last month, and it's like, “Ah, still got it.” [laugh].Corey: It's neat to watch that happen, first off—Alex: For sure.Corey: But it also happened as well, with increasing amounts of utility. There was a new AWS billing page that came out, and I'm sure it meets someone's needs somewhere, somehow, but the things that I always wanted to look at when I want someone to pull up their last month's bill is great, hit the print button—on the old page—and it spits out an exploded pdf of every type of usage across their entire AWS estate. And I can skim through that thing and figure out what the hell's going on at a high level. And this new thing did not let me do that. And that's a concern, not just for the consulting story because with our clients, we have better access than printing a PDF and reading it by hand, but even talking to randos on the internet who were freaking out about an AWS bill, they shouldn't have to trust me enough to give me access into their account. They should be able to get a PDF and send it to me.Well, I was talking with you about this, and again, in what felt like ten minutes, you wound up with a command line tool, run it on an exported CSV of a monthly bill and it spits it out as an HTML page that automatically collapses in and allocates things based upon different groups and service type and usage. And congratulations, you spent ten minutes to create a better billing experience than AWS did. Which feels like it was probably, in fairness to AWS, about seven-and-a-half minutes more time than they spent on it.Alex: Well, I mean, I think that comes back to what we were saying about, you know, not all the interesting problems in data are in data that doesn't fit in RAM, right? I think, in this case, that came from two places. I looked at those PDFs for a number of clients, and there were a few things that just made my brain hurt. And you and Mike and the rest of the folks at Duckbill could stare at the PDF, like, reading the matrix because you've seen so many of them before and go, ah, yes, “Bill spikes here, here, here.” I'm looking at this and it's just a giant grid of numbers.And what I wanted was I wanted to be able to say, like, don't show me the services in alphabetical order; show me the service is organized in descending order by spend. And within that, don't show me the operations in alphabetical order; show me the operations in decreasing order by spend. And while you're at it, group them into a usage type group so that I know what usage type group is the biggest hitter, right? The second reason, frankly, was I had just learned that DuckDB was a thing that existed, and—Corey: Based on the name alone, I was interested.Alex: Oh, it was an incredible stroke of luck that it was named that. And I went, “This thing lets me run SQL queries against CSV files. I bet I can write something really fast that does this without having to bash my head against the syntactic wall that is Pandas.” And at the end of the day, we had something that I was pretty pleased with. But it's one of those examples of, like, again, just orienting the problem toward, “Well, this is awful.”Because I remember when we first heard about the new billing experience, you kind of had pinged me and went, “We might need something to fix this because this is a problem.” And I went, “Oh, yeah, I can build that.” Which is kind of how a lot of what I've done over the last 15 years has been. It's like, “Oh. Yeah, I bet I could build that.” So, that's kind of how that went.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friend EnterpriseDB. EnterpriseDB has been powering enterprise applications with PostgreSQL for 15 years. And now EnterpriseDB has you covered wherever you deploy PostgreSQL on-premises, private cloud, and they just announced a fully-managed service on AWS and Azure called BigAnimal, all one word. Don't leave managing your database to your cloud vendor because they're too busy launching another half-dozen managed databases to focus on any one of them that they didn't build themselves. Instead, work with the experts over at EnterpriseDB. They can save you time and money, they can even help you migrate legacy applications—including Oracle—to the cloud. To learn more, try BigAnimal for free. Go to biganimal.com/snark, and tell them Corey sent you.Corey: The problem that I keep seeing with all this stuff is I think of it in terms of having to work with the tools I'm given. And yeah, I can spin up infrastructure super easily, but the idea of, I'm going to build something that manipulates data and recombines it in a bunch of different ways, that's not something that I have a lot of experience with, so it's not my instinctive, “Oh, I bet there's an easier way to spit this thing out.” And you think in that mode. You effectively wind up automatically just doing those things, almost casually. Which does make a fair bit of sense, when you understand the context behind it, but for those of us who don't live in that space, it's magic.Alex: I've worked in infrastructure in one form or another my entire career, data infrastructure mostly. And one of the things—I heard this from someone and I can't remember who it was, but they said, “When infrastructure works, it's invisible.” When you walk in the room and flip the light switch, the lights come on. And the fact that the lights come on is a minor miracle. I mean, the electrical grid is one of the most sophisticated, globally-distributed engineering systems ever devised, but we don't think about it that way, right?And the flip side of that, unfortunately, is that people really pay attention to infrastructure most when it breaks. But they are two edges of the same proverbial sword. It's like, I know, when I've done a good job, if the thing got built and it stayed built and it silently runs in the background and people forget it exists. That's how I know that I've done a good job. And that's what I aim to do really, everywhere, including with Duckbill Group, and I'm hoping that the stuff that I built hasn't caught on fire quite yet.Corey: The smoke is just the arising of the piles of money it wound up spinning up.Alex: [laugh].Corey: It's like, “Oh yeah, turns out that maybe we shouldn't have built a database out of pure Managed NAT Gateways. Yeah, who knew?”Alex: Right, right. Maybe I shouldn't have filled my S3 bucket with pure unobtainium. That was a bad idea.Corey: One other thing that we do here that I admit I don't talk about very often because people get the wrong idea, but we do analyst projects for vendors from time to time. And the reason I don't say that is, when people hear about analysts, they think about something radically different, and I do not self-identify as an analyst. It's, “Oh, I'm not an analyst.” “Really? Because we have analyst budget.” “Oh, you said analyst. I thought you said something completely different. Yes, insert coin to continue.”And that was fine, but unlike the vast majority of analysts out there, we don't form our opinions based upon talking to clients and doing deeper dive explorations as our primary focus. We're a team of engineers. All right, you have a product. Let's instrument something with it, or use your product for something and we'll see how it goes along the way. And that is something that's hard for folks to contextualize.What was really fun was bringing you into a few of those engagements just because it was interesting; at the start of those calls. “It was all great, Corey is here and—oh, someone else's here. Is this a security problem?” “It's no, no, Alex is with me.” And you start off those calls doing what everyone should do on those calls is, “How can we help?” And then we shut up and listen. Step one, be a good consultant.And then you ask some probing questions and it goes a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper, and by the end of that call, it's like, “Wow, Alex is amazing. I don't know what that Corey clown is doing here, but yeah, having Alex was amazing.” And every single time, it was phenomenal to watch as you, more or less, got right to the heart of their generally data-oriented problems. It was really fun to be able to think about what customers are trying to achieve through the lens that you see the world through.Alex: Well, that's very flattering, first of all. Thank you. I had a lot of fun on those engagements, honestly because it's really interesting to talk to folks who are building these systems that are targeting mass audiences of very deep-pocketed organizations, right? Because a lot of those organizations, the companies doing the building are themselves massive. And they can talk to their customers, but it's not quite the same as it would be if you or I were talking to the customers because, you know, you don't want to tell someone that their baby is ugly.And note, now, to be fair, we under no circumstances were telling people that their baby was ugly, but I think that the thing that is really fun for me is to kind of be able to wear the academic database nerd hat and the practitioner hat simultaneously, and say, like, “I see why you think this thing is really impressive because of this whiz-bang, technical thing that it does, but I don't know that your customers actually care about that. But what they do care about is this other thing that you've done as an ancillary side effect that actually turns out is a much more compelling thing for someone who has to deal with this stuff every day. So like, you should probably be focusing attention on that.” And the thing that I think was really gratifying was when you know that you're meeting someone on their level and you're giving them honest feedback and you're not just telling them, you know, “The Gartner Magic Quadrant says that in order to move up and to the right, you must do the following five features.” But instead saying, like, “I've built these things before, I've deployed them before, I've managed them before. Here's what sucks that you're solving.” And seeing the kind of gears turn in their head is a very gratifying thing for me.Corey: My favorite part of consulting—and I consider analyst style engagements to be a form of consulting as well—is watching someone get it, watching that light go on, and they suddenly see the answer to a problem that's been vexing them I love that.Alex: Absolutely. I mean, especially when you can tell that this is a thing that has been keeping them up at night and you can say, “Okay. I see your problem. I think I understand it. I think I might know how to help you solve it. Let's go solve it together. I think I have a way out.”And you know, that relief, the sense of like, “Oh, thank God somebody knows what they're doing and can help me with this, and I don't have to think about this anymore.” That's the most gratifying part of the job, in my opinion.Corey: For me, it has always been twofold. One, you've got people figuring out how to solve their problem and you've made their situation better for it. But selfishly, the thing I like the most personally has been the thrill you get from solving a puzzle that you've been toying with and finally it clicks. That is the endorphin hit that keeps me going.Alex: Absolutely.Corey: And I didn't expect when I started this place is that every client engagement is different enough that it isn't boring. It's not the same thing 15 times. Which it would be if it were, “Hi, thanks for having us. You haven't bought some RIs. You should buy some RIs. And I'm off.” It… yeah, software can do that. That's not interesting.Alex: Right. Right. But I think that's the other thing about both cloud economics and data engineering, they kind of both fit into that same mold. You know, what is it? “All happy families are alike, but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” I'm butchering Chekhov, I'm sure. But like—if it's even Chekhov.But the general kind of shape of it is this: everybody's infrastructure is different. Everybody's organization is different. Everybody's optimizing for a different point in the space. And being able to come in and say, “I know that you could just buy a thing that tells you to buy some RIs, but it's not going to know who you are; it's not going to know what your business is; it's not going to know what your challenges are; it's not going to know what your roadmap is. Tell me all those things and then I'll tell you what you shouldn't pay attention to and what you should.”And that's incredibly, incredibly valuable. It's why, you know, it's why they pay us. And that's something that you can never really automate away. I mean, you hear this in data all the time, right? “Oh, well, once all the infrastructure is managed, then we won't need data infrastructure people anymore.”Well, it turns out all the infrastructure is managed now, and we need them more than we ever did. And it's not because this managed stuff is harder to run; it's that the capabilities have increased to the point that they're getting used more. And the more that they're getting used, the more complicated that use becomes, and the more you need somebody who can think at the level of what does the business need, but also, what the heck is this thing doing when I hit the run key? You know? And that I think, is something, particularly in AWS where I mean, my God, the amount and variety and complexity of stuff that can be deployed in service of an organization's use case is—it can't be contained in a single brain.And being able to make sense of that, being able to untangle that and figure out, as you say, the kind of the aha moment, the, “Oh, we can take all of this and just reduce it down to nothing,” is hugely, hugely gratifying and valuable to the customer, I'd like to think.Corey: I think you're right. And again, having been doing this in varying capacities for over five years—almost six now; my God—the one thing has been constant throughout all of that is, our number one source for new business has always been word of mouth. And there have been things that obviously contribute to that, and there are other vectors we have as well, but by and large, when someone winds up asking a colleague or a friend or an acquaintance about the problem of their AWS bill, and the response almost universally, is, “Yeah, you should go talk to The Duckbill Group,” that says something that validates that we aren't going too far wrong with what we're approaching. Now that you're back on the freelance data side, I'm looking forward to continuing to work with you, if through no other means and being your customer, just because you solve very interesting and occasionally very specific problems that we periodically see. There's no reason that we can't bring specialists in—and we do from time to time—to look at very specific aspects of a customer problem or a customer constraint, or, in your case for example, a customer data set, which, “Hmm, I have some thoughts on here, but just optimizing what storage class that three petabytes of data lives within seems like it's maybe step two, after figuring what the heck is in it.” Baseline stuff. You know, the place that you live in that I hand-wave over because I'm scared of the complexity.Alex: I am very much looking forward to continuing to work with you on this. There's a whole bunch of really, really exciting opportunities there. And in terms of word of mouth, right, same here. Most of my inbound clientele came to me through word of mouth, especially in the first couple years. And I feel like that's how you know that you're doing it right.If someone hires you, that's one thing, and if someone refers you, to their friends, that's validation that they feel comfortable enough with you and with the work that you can do that they're not going to—you know, they're not going to pass their friends off to someone who's a chump, right? And that makes me feel good. Every time I go, “Oh, I heard from such and such that you're good at this. You want to help me with this?” Like, “Yes, absolutely.”Corey: I've really appreciated the opportunity to work with you and I'm super glad I got the chance to get to know you, including as a person, not just as the person who knows the data, but there's a human being there, too, believe it or not.Alex: Weird. [laugh].Corey: And that's the important part. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, how you think about these things, potentially have you looked at a gnarly data problem they've got, where's the best place to find you now?Alex: So, my business is called Bits on Disk. The website is bitsondisk.com. I do write occasionally there. I'm also on Twitter at @alexras. That's Alex-R-A-S, and I'm on LinkedIn as well. So, if your lovely listeners would like to reach me through any of those means, please don't hesitate to reach out. I would love to talk to them more about the challenges that they're facing in data and how I might be able to help them solve them.Corey: Wonderful. And we will of course, put links to that in the show notes. Thank you again for taking the time to speak with me, spending as much time working here as you did, and honestly, for a lot of the things that you've taught me along the way.Alex: My absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.Corey: Alex Rasmussen, data engineering consultant at Bits on Disk. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. This is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment that is so large it no longer fits in RAM.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

This week, I am joined by Alex Oh and Nikolay Borisov Co-founders and Partners at Ohlay, an engagement design company. Their current work explores the intersection of personal development and company culture, asking: how do people connect more deeply with themselves, with their work, with others, and within their communities? They believe in a world where people show up more fully in every aspect of their lives — people who lead with heart and purpose, and where meaningful work and connections are the norm. In our conversation, we talked about their work at Ohlay, we have a little social journaling session (don't worry they will explain what that is), and explored further this idea of connection: with ourselves, with others, and within our communities.   Stay in Touch with: ↳ Learn more about Ohlay ↳ Ohlay on Instagram ↳ Alex on Linkedin ↳ Nikolay on Linkedin   Ways to support the show:    

Hello, my Kiddos,   I'm back with a new conversation with Alex Oh and Nikolay Borisov - they are founders business partners of Ohlay - SOCIAL JOURNALING & WORKPLACE CULTURE. Its mission is to build more meaningful connections through social journaling and shared conversation. Our shared vision is to spark a cultural shift in the way that people connect with themselves, with others, and within their work. Ohlay is a culture consultancy and social journaling studio based in Los Angeles. We explore the intersection of people development, design thinking, and social healing to guide people to live and work with greater personal passion and camaraderie. We are exploring different channels and possibilities for engagement and communication to co-create communities, platforms, and content that reflect the members and users that share it. We share conversations, community gatherings, and tools for the art of connection. Our first exploration is into the world of social journaling. Nikolay -  I believe Social Journaling (SJ) will change the world. SJ is a tool we developed at Ohlay that is a facilitated process for building equity, empathy, and effectiveness in group settings. This includes partnerships, organizations, and communities (anywhere humans are present, SJ can help!) Join us for our next session or inquire about bringing Social Journaling to your people. #workplace #culture #corporateculture # journey https://zez.am/chombita_chronicles https://www.oh-lay.com/ https://www.worldofdoyley.com/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/yovy-d/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/yovy-d/support

In this episode, I have the opportunity to speak with Alex Hagerup who is solving the problem of using AI to take costs out of your business. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So today I have someone that I have been admiring by looking at his background, here with me today to talk about some amazing aspects of his journey to solve business problems leveraging technology, specifically AI which is quite cool. Anyway, let me stop right there. And welcome Alex Hager group. Hello, Alex. Alex Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Grant Thank you. Thanks for being here today and for taking the time. I know you're getting ready to head off trans continental here pretty soon on a trip. So thanks for for jumping on this conversation here today. Alex Absolutely. It's exciting being able to travel again. So I going home to the Motherland for a few weeks is exciting. I haven't been there for more than a few days, for the last three years, actually. So I'm definitely excited. Grant Have have have the COVID situations and those numbers pretty good over there at this point. Alex Yeah, everything is fine. So Norway is completely open again. And it's all good. But But Norway was one of those countries that really looked down hard. And also since the US didn't allow non US residents to actually come back into the country. If you left. It was just a problematic situation to go to Europe in general. Wow. Grant Yeah. What a great opportunity to get home to family. Well, thanks for taking your time here with me today on this. So Vic AI. All right, who is Vic AI? What happened here? How to what are you? What are you solving? What what problem? Are you looking to address with Vic? Ai? Alex Yeah, absolutely. So I'll take a little bit of the background to set that up. So I, I've always been very interested in both accounting, finance and technology. So this is a company that lives in the intersection of those. My mom had her own accounting firm. So I grew up there, which probably influenced my interest for for accounting in general. And I built a couple of companies. But one that I spent three years with just prior to starting, Aki was a cloud ERP system, an accounting and accounting platform that was being used by about 30 40,000 companies back then it's about 80 90,000. Now, and during working there, you know, observe the sort of, let's say, the challenges of accounting and the manual, repetitiveness, the tediousness, all of that from, you know, every day you felt it? Grant Where? I mean, what is the excitement in that? Right? I mean, where's the excitement? Yeah. Did you credit that properly?  Alex Oh, gosh, yeah, exactly. So so we were we were just observing this. And then this was back in 2014 15. Just before we started with AI started having a new, you know, like a new summer or a new renaissance in a way and, and we were thinking like this has to be we can maybe like we can solve this in a better way than how the technology has solved it so far. And after some deliberation, we sort of thought that we could create AI algorithms that would be able to actually do accounting transaction processing better than humans. Grant Because that's a really key point I think you're making. So the way that we've been solving this problem up to this point has been, let me take the tasks that we do and just automate the tasks themselves. Right. In other words, let me take your actual transactional activities that you're working through, and just put some increased processing to that. That's how it's historically been done, right? Alex Yep. Correct. And that's been entirely driven by rules, right? So, you know, transaction, Uber, transportation, as, you know, rules based automation, right? And there are all sorts of problems with that. It's obviously better than doing everything manually, right? So we aren't we're progressing through stages there. If you go back before the spreadsheets, you know, everything was done entirely manually. So we are progressing here, but, but what we're building is not next face that comes off there, you know, what everyone is using today, all over the world. And, you know, AI will solve this in a more scalable and gracious way and more more effectively. So that was all right. Yeah. Grant Yeah. So real quick on that, can you articulate how is that different? Right? Because all of us come from this rules based way of thinking. So what is it that AI is going to do better? How will it do it differently than what we're used to? Alex Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a great question. It's kind of the essence as well. So when you when you look at how it happens today, it's not only rules are not only automation, it's automation, and a lot of human hours involved. So you can always ask yourself, why are all those human hours involved? If it's automation, right? So so it begs the question, right, so what happens in reality is that sort of rules and templates and RPA isn't sufficient, because there's so many edge cases, and there's so much variability in the world of accounting. So you know, rules only takes you so far. And then you have to staff up and have human cognitive reasoning step in and do the rest of it. So where AI comes in is that it can do both of those things. So it does the automation without rules, and it can do the reasoning that humans are there to do today. So I always say that AI is, is great at sort of mimicking that reasoning that humans are doing. So one of the areas that we're in is invoice processing. And when I give an invoice to any human, you know, it will always tell me, oh, that's the vendor, you know, that's the invoice number, lots of total costs. But that's not obvious to a computer. And if you're gonna write rules for every variability in the world, you can just end up writing too many rules. So it's just not a, it's not a great technology for it. And AI is way better. So it's just like in the early stages, so that's next sort of digital transformation, transformation journey that we're all. So as Grant So as you know, when you're working in the AI space, and you're saying, Oh, I'm going to apply AI to a particular problem, you end up building different models with different AI characteristics based on the nature of the problem, some more aggression based some more sort of classification based, as your people as your customers look to use your platform, do they get exposed to any of that? Are they even aware of what elements or aspects of AI are at play? Or? Or do they just jump in and start solving the problems they're used to, and then the right sort of AI model behind the scene is executing on their behalf? Alex Yeah, we've hidden all of that from our customers. So we do try to keep sort of Explainable AI in the way where our user interface is explaining why our AI predicted something. But we've kept all of the complexity, so sort of models and model training. And all of that is in the background, we decided to do like an end to end service where the customer, they don't really need to do anything technical. It's, it's, you know, just another SAS subscription that they're using, that they plug into one of their processes. And then we deal with all of the complexity of the models, both global models and AI models, specifically the same for each customer. So we keep all of that complexity hidden. Grant That's awesome. That way, I'm not touching any of that as the end user. So if I see the name Vic AI, I don't need to shy away and say, Oh, wait, I need to be an AI expert. It's more that this is the enabling technology. And it just turns out that you've made that simple for the people without needing to know that Wait a minute. So that brings a question on my use, you know, one of the challenges around AI is the whole notion around bias. And, and, and with the cognizance that's required for humans up to this point, and still largely today to do you know, counting processes. Therefore, that has the opportunity for some bias that comes in right terms of the way things get handled. How do you deal with that then in terms of applying AI so that that bias doesn't creep through? Alex Yeah, it's a great question. And it's a challenge for everything where we're data sets are involved in training, AI. So one of the ways that so one of The one of the good things with accounting data, if you start with that is that it's ultimately numbers and classifications. And you, you kind of want to have that, right? Because otherwise your your books of your business is wrong. So unless you want them to be wrong, you know, you have a very good incentive to keep this right. SO into SO, you know, I think we generally see kind of less less bias in accounting data, and then some other more like subjective data in a way. And then also we draw on data across 1000s and 1000s of customers. So we have customers in both Europe and the US and many other many other regions as well, but the little fewer and most of the concentration in Europe and US. And in all sorts of industries and all sorts of sizes, we have about 13,000 customers on the platform now. So when you start looking at such a wide data set, you also hopefully reduce some of some of that bias. And then you also have auditing processes that sort of sits at the end of their accounting. And hopefully also they'll you know, annually they'll catch corrections, and also fed in as well to make AI. So those are some of the tactics. Basically, it's all about keeping clean data, so that our predictions are accurate. That's really what we're trying to get to. Grant Yeah, boy, that's that's so critical, especially as you pointed out with the with the need to of course, be accurate for the business for sure. All right, so So let's say that you've got this data, you've cleaned it up, you've done the preparation, you're on the Vic AI platform, the question now in my mind becomes, therefore, what changes in the lives of the people that adopt this right and others, they may change? I'm supposing something about the way they do their daily work, or the way the CFO does certain things, or maybe even impact on regulations and audits. I mean, what's the impact of the organization when when this gets adopted?  Alex Yeah, I'm also in question. And I want to point out also that the beginning of getting getting live with Vicki AI isn't complex for a customer, because we built an automated system to ingest and clean their historical data, which then goes into our system automatically and train our AI algorithms so that when we go live, we have, you know, pretty good knowledge of what's going to be predicted. We know your system, we know your accounting, we know how you do things. So when you start pushing new transactions through our classification, accuracy is high. And there's no complexity for the customer. In that process, it basically happens automatically in the background. Once you are live with Vic AI, some things will will change. But it doesn't sort of change. Like overnight. One of the things with AI is it gets better and better over time. And one of the things we're driving towards is what we call full autonomy. And full autonomy is you know, the AI's version of automation. But it means that it has perceived this not to need human review. And that's when it's fully autonomous. So that's our sort of end goal with the autonomy of transactions is that, you know, the AI system is perfectly confident in the work that it has been doing. So it doesn't even ask a human to review it. So this this increases over time. So when you start with Aki, you, you have a you know, you have a better interface, you have a smoother operation, you have already probably 50% time reduction in the first month of using the system. Grant Let me stop you on that right there. 50%. So, that would be 50% of those that are doing sort of the daily operational activities, or is that of the CFO? Or who who is that, that that percent impacted? Alex Yeah, that's on the accounting team that is doing the processing. So if you're doing you know, if you have five people or if you have 15 people doing invoice processing, whether they are onshore or offshore, you know, just in the beginning, you can drastically reduce that, and then that percentage just increases over time because you're substituting the AI for for for human FTE. So basically, and and what we see is that everyone wants to do something else than just sit and do like data entry and accounting classification, right? You you, you can be more proactive, you can do more value added work than that. And we're sort of at that phase now where the AI can substitute that's partly augments and also fully run things autonomously. So when you put this in place, in the beginning, there is a little bit of effect right away but you know, you got to read the sign some of your some of your processes and some of your routines because you have a platform here now that is doing Most of the work for you, and you're just reviewing and you're reviewing the AI and training the AI to become more autonomous. So you've got a little on my mind shifts, and some sort of routines, you don't need to double and triple check, check in have four people involved in reviewing, you know, one thing because the AI can tell you how confident it is. And if it is very confident, maybe you can have one person review it in the beginning, and then eventually it will be fully autonomous. If it's less confident, then it will also tell you, and you can review it in more detail. So it's pretty, it's pretty, pretty fascinating. Grant It is dang fascinating. And I'm assuming that there are some that have run into this, and they've worried about their jobs, right? They're like, wait a minute, you're taking my tasks away from me? Do you have to help them overcome that fear and say, hey, you know, you're gonna move towards more value added activities within the organization? Have you run into that problem? Alex So it will we see is that it's, everyone is just squeezed on time, right? Everyone's trying to hit the deadline of the month, the clothes and all of that. So it there is no shortage of work to be done in the accounting piece. And, and just having, you know, having faster turnaround time having more accurate data, because AI is more accurate than humans, like it doesn't fat fingers thinks the same way. And when it's uncertain, it asked for a human verification, a human looks at it, and then you get more accurate than then all the way. So we see that, you know, there's no shortage of things to do. Everyone wants to progress their careers. And I don't really perceive that as an actual problem. But it is like a, you know, people think about that as a problem, but I don't think it is in reality. Grant So this has been several years and coming. When did you start this 2 to 3 years ago? Alex Yeah, early 2017, was 5 years. Grant Okay, that's, that's awesome. And you built this ground up, meaning all of AI development AI technology that your organization's created, right? Alex Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's been challenging. That's why it's taken taken quite a few years, as well as because you we started, you know, completely scratch, and we had to figure everything out. So one of the things that sets the KPI apart a little bit as part of our founding story, where we were able to start the company, we had access to a gigantic data sets of accounting transactions, and all corresponding documents to that. So that helped us just spend the first two years we just spent on data analysis, data science and machine learning development, because we had some thesis and theories that this could work, but we didn't know. So it just had to do that in the beginning, for for a couple of years. So when we saw that this actually has promised, like, we were predicting more and more accurately, and you know, we're gonna get to this inflection point where it's better to use PKI, that do not use PKI. And at that point, people will use it, and then, you know, continue growing more and more customers and more and more data and more and more corrections, and better and better predictions. So we realized we would get to that point. And then, you know, then we raised the seed round back in 2017. And, you know, started developing, Grant What a great journey. I love this story. So tell me about impact outcomes. So you talked about a large number of customers that are using the platform now, what is what's been the results that they've seen? Alex Yeah, so we see. So there's a couple of numbers that we that we statistically enroll from the from the customers, we see that customers have about 80% reduction in the overall time spent on the process. And that comes from two things. One is the percent of fully autonomous. So let's say you're 50%, fully autonomous, that means you spent zero time on 50% of your volume. And then that other part, we've drastically reduced the number of minutes in two seconds. For each transaction a human has to review because the AI has done all the upfront work, humans just reviewing it, rather than sort of processing it from scratch. So you're at seconds rather than minutes. This turns into sort of an 80% reduction in in time. You also have things that we do like prevent duplicate payments, and we have some fraud detection in the system. So you also have some of those benefits that can turn into multimillion dollar when you have a large enough cost base. And then we have audit trails in the system, which helps with figuring out you know, making sure that you know, all of the approvals are doing rights. If anyone has changed in amount or something. It's all logged into the system electronically. So you have some some compliance and auditing benefits from it as well. But right now the main, the main effective impact our customers have, and we typically sell to the mid market and enterprise. So these are larger organizations, they can have hundreds of 1000s, or millions even have sort of vendor bills per, per year, and a substantial amount of people and resources involved in dealing with that problem. So they see very significant ROI from it. Grant So to sell into that particular group, then I'm assuming you've got to have a decent amount of integrations into all of their incumbent systems, right, all of their ERP systems and CRM systems, etc. Right? What does that look like? Alex Yeah, that's, that's true. So we build out these connectors as we as we go, it does, for each connector, the first time we build it, it does take a little bit of time. And then once we have that connect, for instance, you know, to NetSuite or intact or Oracle, the, you know, the next customers that we bring on board, we can leverage the same connector. So it is it is some work initially to build out all of the ones that we need. And then you can grow and scale on top of that for the customer. This is no complexity like we're taking not on completely. So the only thing we need is to know what type of system they have. And we develop that connector as part of the offering. Grant So let's talk about looking to the future in terms of when I'm doing FPA, a financial planning and analysis and I'm, I'm looking at my numbers, and I want to leverage a view into the future. How does something like this help an organization with that? Alex Yeah, that's a, that's a beautiful question. And a big passion of mine, actually. So what we're doing now sets us up to solve that specific problem. So if you think of where we are, now we're in accounting. And what you're talking about is more finance, which is what we'll dive into the idea and the vision that we are getting to is that we want to develop an AI that's basically is a real time cost optimization engine that serves predictions and monitors that in real time, we will be able to help you project kind of what your cost base should be, and how you could reduce spend in various categories and with various vendors. That's that's the piece that we're trying to solve as part of that equation of the of the future. So that you always have multiple pieces of the accounting equation, you have the cost side, you have the revenue side, you have adjustments and close process. And we're trying to stay within one of them for now. And make sure we sold provide real true value in that swim lane before we move on from from there. Grant Yes, I think that part's fascinating, as well, I've seen and interacted with organizations that are trying to leverage shift P and A even into capacity and resource planning, and trying to figure out what that looks like, and especially with it what's going on in the world today, right, with certainly high inflation and certainly supply chain challenges. The need for this kind of capability, I think is dire. Right. I think having the ability to provide something like this sooner rather than later is really crucial. Alex Yeah, definitely. And I think the technology has the ability to hold much more context and see data across all of the things that buck forms, like ours can do in in, in a compliant and anonymized ways, you can see data patterns, you know, across different companies. So you can inform yourself, no more than just sitting looking at your own data sitting inside your own office and their own silo. So that I will, you know, in the future greatly help with, you know, capacity planning, or, you know, cost reduction initiatives and so on. So I think that's one of the powers of sort of, like the cloud combined with with AI and big data, if it's leveraged in the in the right way. Grant And so if I go back just one moment on something, so if we take an AI model, and and we take it through a data set, and we were able to get sort of two key views at it, one is sort of more hindsight, right? One sort of looking backwards, right? It's the AI is looking at it saying here were the drivers that that contributed to the certain behavior, right? So it's more analytic Right. But then there's the other style of using it, which is looking forward, which is more predictive. And oh, okay, here's, here's where based on things we've seen, here's what the high predictive sort of correlations are opportunities are things that we expect moving in the future. When you when you look at Vic AI, and everything that you're providing, do you focus more on one side versus the other? Or you're combining both of those views together? Alex Hmm...yeah, we so in the, in the course of the work in the platform we have now, so every thing we do is a prediction on new data. So that means a new so if you sort of break it down into like, there's a new signal or a new transaction, or a new document coming in, that we've never seen before. And, and the platform then predicts what this is, Donald to vary like line item level detail, how to classify it, and so on. So it does predict this based on the algorithmic design, and the historical data that it seen both for this customer and globally. So it sort of is our engines are purely predictive in terms of what they're trying to predict what's going on. And you can extend that to two other parts, like we just discussed on the cost side as well. You can predict how how you should, you know, maybe they'll just classify this cost, but like, how, what your cost base should consist of a new look at categories. And you can sort of predict this based on your own current spend your growth in the company and maybe other comparable companies, so you can start predicting a journey based on the same technologies. Grant Awesome. So quick question for you, as COVID started to hit, obviously, a couple of years ago, and large companies have their AI models, you know, out there deployed, we're running, suddenly that disruption created an impact to the way in which business was typically being done, right. Not all industries were hit. But certainly a lot of industries are hit. And therefore, business operations changed. And the way in which people conducted business altered, which meant then, that those models were making assumptions based on former operational models, right former ways in which people executed, and therefore invalidated some of those predictive characteristics or capabilities of those models, which meant then, as you know that they had to go do some rework, right had to reduce retraining, right and update the data sets and so forth. So to what degree does Vic AI continually learn, right, so as you pointed out, you get a new document you've never seen before. At some point, I'm assuming it pulls it into its corpus, right? And it continues to learn or relearn on that. Can you talk to that? Alex Yeah. And it's a key feature of the platform, which, which is actually pretty enjoyable when you see it working in reality. So we, so for every transaction that goes through our platform, or every invoice or vendor Bill divest process through our platform, that leaves that leaves us with some learnings. So, you know, it's either it's corrected, and we made a prediction and a human chose to change it. Right? That is something that is fed back into our data set, and also our learning database of sort of, why would that ever happen? What did we get wrong in this prediction? And so for every prediction that we do, we learn something because if we predict something, and it's correct, we also learned something. So you know, we have millions of transactions just flowing through the system every month. And for each of them, we learn something so the system then improves basically, for each transaction that goes through the system. The level of, you know, transaction processing we're at isn't really affected by kind of like global changes, like you mentioned, for for COVID. Like, the only thing that could happen is you suddenly have some some new transaction because you need to do something differently, or you may have fewer transaction, which then just you know, is additive to our system. So you know, we will get something maybe we'll have lower confidence on this because this is something new. So you know, you will have a human come in there and tell the system what to do with this. And then that will be additive to the to the data sets and, and all the algorithmic design, if that makes sense. Grant It makes total sense. Absolutely. Yeah. And I loved how you tied the two together which is, well, I'm still gonna have the transaction. Although the world the macro world around me is changing the transaction occurs while may change is the rate of them. or how, or maybe even maybe even the units or the number of units, etc, right things like that will certainly or could change because of disruption. Being able to predict or understand how the organization can respond to, to disruption, I think becomes more and more critical, as we seem to continue to have more disruptions in business. Right? That happens a lot. Alex Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, what happened with with COVID specifically was also a lot of disruption in how people worked. And, you know, they were used to working from home and, you know, we have some, some of our customers, they have millions of invoices a year, which means, like, 1000s of invoices a day and, you know, suddenly you have, your whole workforce is like, not as productive as they were when something like this happens. But you know, you still need or your your system to be updated, you still need to pay your vendors on time. And otherwise, you know, you'll incur fees, and it'll so just like having an AI system in there that doesn't sort of care about those things. It has the same throughput and outputs 24/7 all year around, makes you very resilient for for sort of things like that are like workforce changes. Grant So that's the right word resilient, you want that organizational resilience, and as the point I wanted to drive out, which is, even though there's these disruptions that take place, most of which are outside of our control, getting our companies into a position to handle and respond properly or well, to that, or to pivot is what organizational resilience is about. And my experience has been AI is one of those tools to help us do that. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Okay, I want to ask you a very forward looking question. Right? You're ready? Yeah, sure. All right. So I'm not going to ask what are you going to do Norway? Or what I'm asking is tell me about blockchain? What does that mean to you in your world and things that you're doing? Alex Yeah, I mean, that's, we've been thinking about that. And, to be, to be honest, we haven't really seen yet the connection between specifically what we do and how to leverage a blockchain effectively, I like the technology of a blockchain is really awesome. And it can unlock a lot of things. But it doesn't mean that you need to use it for everything. One thing that I think could be an interesting exploration is when you start looking at accounting, ERP data, and whether the accounting systems could run and have their data in a blockchain that is verifiable, to prevent all sorts of, you know, fiddling with the data. That could be an interesting application for for blockchain in in our area. And there's clearly things around, you know, like money movement and value movements that blockchain can solve pretty pretty well. So just in the layer where we are, we haven't really found a great application that applies to us with the blockchain. Yes, but I think that technology is super fascinating. And I think that there are many areas where it is a superior technology to sort of like the trust based system that we have now. And it's an epic thing, when you can run that successfully in a resilient way. Grant When you think and that that makes a lot of sense. It's, it's got some, as you pointed out some interesting potential benefits to the industry. But I suppose at some point, it doesn't really matter where the transaction sits for you, right, in terms of the problem that you're solving, right? In other words, whether it's sitting on a blockchain or it's somewhere else and an Oracle ERP or whatever, right to it, at some point, that probably doesn't matter. Right? Alex Yeah, for us, the Store of the the sort of the store of the data ultimately is for us in the ERP system. And we are not an ERP system, we just layer on top of the ERP systems. So that is the ultimate sort of storage of the data. And that's where if, if, if at all the like blockchain technology could be leveraged to, to kind of store data in in a safe and transparent way. But there's also some new or some transparency issues with accounting data as well, that's going to be kept in mind. Grant Yeah, I would imagine that one of the greatest use cases to for what it is you provide is in the area of fraud to fraud detection, right the ability to regardless of where the data sitting, and regardless if it's on a blockchain or in an ERP system, you Your ai i would imagine would help to discover or uncover some of those potential opportunities. Is that accurate? Alex Yeah. And you have this this platform benefit as well is what if one customer sort of reports. So what happens a lot is just invoice fraud, right? You have, you have invoices that are not from the vendor that they appear to be from. And you have different variations of trying to change payment details, and you know, all of that. So when you see when you see data across 1000s of customers, you, you have a way of detecting those things, and at least flagging them for like, Hey, someone should have an extra look at this, because something may be up, if we're all good with it, that's fine. But you know, have an extra Look at this. And for people, you know, when we, as people, when we're doing something for six hours straight, you know, the last few hours, we're just like, you know, we're just clicking enter and trying to get, you know, the day over with, and, and things can easily pass by that shouldn't pass by. So this is this is problematic in two ways. Number one, your accounting data could end up being wrong, like you just have things that are misclassified. And then you can have things that are, you know, paid, or you're paid twice, or you pay the wrong thing, or you pay an extra zero, you have all of these things that are just humans are it's easy for humans to do those mistakes. And you just want to sort of get rid though those with a technology that can help you remove all of those errors. And we know how, you know, a billion dollar cost base? Just you know, half a percent is, you know, quite a lot. Grant A big number. Yeah, it is. Yeah, you'd hate to get false positives on a fraud situation, right, where you might be accusing someone that, that they've conducted fraud, when in fact it was was just a mistake. This is fascinating technology. So, Alex, where do people go to? I mean, where can you point them to, to learn more about you and your organization? Alex Yeah, I mean, the website is, is the safest place to go right now. So just go to Vic.ai. And we have, we have a good bit of marketing collateral and informative collateral blog posts, we try to educate the customers and the finance team. So finance teams are interestingly, you know, they're, they're not buying new things that often because you know, your ERP system, you have it for a very long time, which which you definitely should. So you know, you're not like a high. There's no high velocity necessarily on procuring things for the finance team. And, and we try to do a lot of educational material as well, because AI is new, but it has true effects or the finance team, and they'll find them blog, blog posts and collateral and can happily reach out to us and we'll help guide anyone through the process. Grant Oh, okay. That's, that's awesome. Alex, you've been so generous with your time here today, especially as you're getting ready to jet off into the sunrise just real quick. Any last comments that you want to share? Alex Um, I think this has been this has been a cool chats. It's been it's been really good. I love talking about, of course, AI and our company, but also the technologies in general. So I think this has been been super cool. And I think that it, you know, it's just wanted to say that we've we've spent a long time building the platform, so glad it's not complex for the customers right now, all of the AI performance, which is actually mind blowing, but you have no level of complexity. So, you know, if you if you want to get started with with AI for a function, this is a very specific function within invoice processing, where you can deploy AI, get the effects out of it with no complexities, and we'll deal with all of that for you. Grant That's actually the beauty of this, you know, to be able to get that down to a few points. Now splint clicks on a SaaS solution. They have all that taken care of, I've written my share of AI code, and oh, my goodness, the fact that you've handled that so seamlessly for the business people is huge. Nice job. Really great job on that. Yeah. Thanks. Great. Alex Thank you. Grant Thanks for taking the time today. Again, Alex. My gosh, this is awesome, everyone. Thanks for listening to another episode of ClickAI Radio. And until next time, go check out Vic.ai. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit clickairadio.com Now.  

In this episode, I have the opportunity to speak with Alex Hagerup who is solving the problem of using AI to take costs out of your business. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So today I have someone that I have been admiring by looking at his background, here with me today to talk about some amazing aspects of his journey to solve business problems leveraging technology, specifically AI which is quite cool. Anyway, let me stop right there. And welcome Alex Hager group. Hello, Alex. Alex Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Grant Thank you. Thanks for being here today and for taking the time. I know you're getting ready to head off trans continental here pretty soon on a trip. So thanks for for jumping on this conversation here today. Alex Absolutely. It's exciting being able to travel again. So I going home to the Motherland for a few weeks is exciting. I haven't been there for more than a few days, for the last three years, actually. So I'm definitely excited. Grant Have have have the COVID situations and those numbers pretty good over there at this point. Alex Yeah, everything is fine. So Norway is completely open again. And it's all good. But But Norway was one of those countries that really looked down hard. And also since the US didn't allow non US residents to actually come back into the country. If you left. It was just a problematic situation to go to Europe in general. Wow. Grant Yeah. What a great opportunity to get home to family. Well, thanks for taking your time here with me today on this. So Vic AI. All right, who is Vic AI? What happened here? How to what are you? What are you solving? What what problem? Are you looking to address with Vic? Ai? Alex Yeah, absolutely. So I'll take a little bit of the background to set that up. So I, I've always been very interested in both accounting, finance and technology. So this is a company that lives in the intersection of those. My mom had her own accounting firm. So I grew up there, which probably influenced my interest for for accounting in general. And I built a couple of companies. But one that I spent three years with just prior to starting, Aki was a cloud ERP system, an accounting and accounting platform that was being used by about 30 40,000 companies back then it's about 80 90,000. Now, and during working there, you know, observe the sort of, let's say, the challenges of accounting and the manual, repetitiveness, the tediousness, all of that from, you know, every day you felt it? Grant Where? I mean, what is the excitement in that? Right? I mean, where's the excitement? Yeah. Did you credit that properly?  Alex Oh, gosh, yeah, exactly. So so we were we were just observing this. And then this was back in 2014 15. Just before we started with AI started having a new, you know, like a new summer or a new renaissance in a way and, and we were thinking like this has to be we can maybe like we can solve this in a better way than how the technology has solved it so far. And after some deliberation, we sort of thought that we could create AI algorithms that would be able to actually do accounting transaction processing better than humans. Grant Because that's a really key point I think you're making. So the way that we've been solving this problem up to this point has been, let me take the tasks that we do and just automate the tasks themselves. Right. In other words, let me take your actual transactional activities that you're working through, and just put some increased processing to that. That's how it's historically been done, right? Alex Yep. Correct. And that's been entirely driven by rules, right? So, you know, transaction, Uber, transportation, as, you know, rules based automation, right? And there are all sorts of problems with that. It's obviously better than doing everything manually, right? So we aren't we're progressing through stages there. If you go back before the spreadsheets, you know, everything was done entirely manually. So we are progressing here, but, but what we're building is not next face that comes off there, you know, what everyone is using today, all over the world. And, you know, AI will solve this in a more scalable and gracious way and more more effectively. So that was all right. Yeah. Grant Yeah. So real quick on that, can you articulate how is that different? Right? Because all of us come from this rules based way of thinking. So what is it that AI is going to do better? How will it do it differently than what we're used to? Alex Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a great question. It's kind of the essence as well. So when you when you look at how it happens today, it's not only rules are not only automation, it's automation, and a lot of human hours involved. So you can always ask yourself, why are all those human hours involved? If it's automation, right? So so it begs the question, right, so what happens in reality is that sort of rules and templates and RPA isn't sufficient, because there's so many edge cases, and there's so much variability in the world of accounting. So you know, rules only takes you so far. And then you have to staff up and have human cognitive reasoning step in and do the rest of it. So where AI comes in is that it can do both of those things. So it does the automation without rules, and it can do the reasoning that humans are there to do today. So I always say that AI is, is great at sort of mimicking that reasoning that humans are doing. So one of the areas that we're in is invoice processing. And when I give an invoice to any human, you know, it will always tell me, oh, that's the vendor, you know, that's the invoice number, lots of total costs. But that's not obvious to a computer. And if you're gonna write rules for every variability in the world, you can just end up writing too many rules. So it's just not a, it's not a great technology for it. And AI is way better. So it's just like in the early stages, so that's next sort of digital transformation, transformation journey that we're all. So as Grant So as you know, when you're working in the AI space, and you're saying, Oh, I'm going to apply AI to a particular problem, you end up building different models with different AI characteristics based on the nature of the problem, some more aggression based some more sort of classification based, as your people as your customers look to use your platform, do they get exposed to any of that? Are they even aware of what elements or aspects of AI are at play? Or? Or do they just jump in and start solving the problems they're used to, and then the right sort of AI model behind the scene is executing on their behalf? Alex Yeah, we've hidden all of that from our customers. So we do try to keep sort of Explainable AI in the way where our user interface is explaining why our AI predicted something. But we've kept all of the complexity, so sort of models and model training. And all of that is in the background, we decided to do like an end to end service where the customer, they don't really need to do anything technical. It's, it's, you know, just another SAS subscription that they're using, that they plug into one of their processes. And then we deal with all of the complexity of the models, both global models and AI models, specifically the same for each customer. So we keep all of that complexity hidden. Grant That's awesome. That way, I'm not touching any of that as the end user. So if I see the name Vic AI, I don't need to shy away and say, Oh, wait, I need to be an AI expert. It's more that this is the enabling technology. And it just turns out that you've made that simple for the people without needing to know that Wait a minute. So that brings a question on my use, you know, one of the challenges around AI is the whole notion around bias. And, and, and with the cognizance that's required for humans up to this point, and still largely today to do you know, counting processes. Therefore, that has the opportunity for some bias that comes in right terms of the way things get handled. How do you deal with that then in terms of applying AI so that that bias doesn't creep through? Alex Yeah, it's a great question. And it's a challenge for everything where we're data sets are involved in training, AI. So one of the ways that so one of The one of the good things with accounting data, if you start with that is that it's ultimately numbers and classifications. And you, you kind of want to have that, right? Because otherwise your your books of your business is wrong. So unless you want them to be wrong, you know, you have a very good incentive to keep this right. SO into SO, you know, I think we generally see kind of less less bias in accounting data, and then some other more like subjective data in a way. And then also we draw on data across 1000s and 1000s of customers. So we have customers in both Europe and the US and many other many other regions as well, but the little fewer and most of the concentration in Europe and US. And in all sorts of industries and all sorts of sizes, we have about 13,000 customers on the platform now. So when you start looking at such a wide data set, you also hopefully reduce some of some of that bias. And then you also have auditing processes that sort of sits at the end of their accounting. And hopefully also they'll you know, annually they'll catch corrections, and also fed in as well to make AI. So those are some of the tactics. Basically, it's all about keeping clean data, so that our predictions are accurate. That's really what we're trying to get to. Grant Yeah, boy, that's that's so critical, especially as you pointed out with the with the need to of course, be accurate for the business for sure. All right, so So let's say that you've got this data, you've cleaned it up, you've done the preparation, you're on the Vic AI platform, the question now in my mind becomes, therefore, what changes in the lives of the people that adopt this right and others, they may change? I'm supposing something about the way they do their daily work, or the way the CFO does certain things, or maybe even impact on regulations and audits. I mean, what's the impact of the organization when when this gets adopted?  Alex Yeah, I'm also in question. And I want to point out also that the beginning of getting getting live with Vicki AI isn't complex for a customer, because we built an automated system to ingest and clean their historical data, which then goes into our system automatically and train our AI algorithms so that when we go live, we have, you know, pretty good knowledge of what's going to be predicted. We know your system, we know your accounting, we know how you do things. So when you start pushing new transactions through our classification, accuracy is high. And there's no complexity for the customer. In that process, it basically happens automatically in the background. Once you are live with Vic AI, some things will will change. But it doesn't sort of change. Like overnight. One of the things with AI is it gets better and better over time. And one of the things we're driving towards is what we call full autonomy. And full autonomy is you know, the AI's version of automation. But it means that it has perceived this not to need human review. And that's when it's fully autonomous. So that's our sort of end goal with the autonomy of transactions is that, you know, the AI system is perfectly confident in the work that it has been doing. So it doesn't even ask a human to review it. So this this increases over time. So when you start with Aki, you, you have a you know, you have a better interface, you have a smoother operation, you have already probably 50% time reduction in the first month of using the system. Grant Let me stop you on that right there. 50%. So, that would be 50% of those that are doing sort of the daily operational activities, or is that of the CFO? Or who who is that, that that percent impacted? Alex Yeah, that's on the accounting team that is doing the processing. So if you're doing you know, if you have five people or if you have 15 people doing invoice processing, whether they are onshore or offshore, you know, just in the beginning, you can drastically reduce that, and then that percentage just increases over time because you're substituting the AI for for for human FTE. So basically, and and what we see is that everyone wants to do something else than just sit and do like data entry and accounting classification, right? You you, you can be more proactive, you can do more value added work than that. And we're sort of at that phase now where the AI can substitute that's partly augments and also fully run things autonomously. So when you put this in place, in the beginning, there is a little bit of effect right away but you know, you got to read the sign some of your some of your processes and some of your routines because you have a platform here now that is doing Most of the work for you, and you're just reviewing and you're reviewing the AI and training the AI to become more autonomous. So you've got a little on my mind shifts, and some sort of routines, you don't need to double and triple check, check in have four people involved in reviewing, you know, one thing because the AI can tell you how confident it is. And if it is very confident, maybe you can have one person review it in the beginning, and then eventually it will be fully autonomous. If it's less confident, then it will also tell you, and you can review it in more detail. So it's pretty, it's pretty, pretty fascinating. Grant It is dang fascinating. And I'm assuming that there are some that have run into this, and they've worried about their jobs, right? They're like, wait a minute, you're taking my tasks away from me? Do you have to help them overcome that fear and say, hey, you know, you're gonna move towards more value added activities within the organization? Have you run into that problem? Alex So it will we see is that it's, everyone is just squeezed on time, right? Everyone's trying to hit the deadline of the month, the clothes and all of that. So it there is no shortage of work to be done in the accounting piece. And, and just having, you know, having faster turnaround time having more accurate data, because AI is more accurate than humans, like it doesn't fat fingers thinks the same way. And when it's uncertain, it asked for a human verification, a human looks at it, and then you get more accurate than then all the way. So we see that, you know, there's no shortage of things to do. Everyone wants to progress their careers. And I don't really perceive that as an actual problem. But it is like a, you know, people think about that as a problem, but I don't think it is in reality. Grant So this has been several years and coming. When did you start this 2 to 3 years ago? Alex Yeah, early 2017, was 5 years. Grant Okay, that's, that's awesome. And you built this ground up, meaning all of AI development AI technology that your organization's created, right? Alex Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's been challenging. That's why it's taken taken quite a few years, as well as because you we started, you know, completely scratch, and we had to figure everything out. So one of the things that sets the KPI apart a little bit as part of our founding story, where we were able to start the company, we had access to a gigantic data sets of accounting transactions, and all corresponding documents to that. So that helped us just spend the first two years we just spent on data analysis, data science and machine learning development, because we had some thesis and theories that this could work, but we didn't know. So it just had to do that in the beginning, for for a couple of years. So when we saw that this actually has promised, like, we were predicting more and more accurately, and you know, we're gonna get to this inflection point where it's better to use PKI, that do not use PKI. And at that point, people will use it, and then, you know, continue growing more and more customers and more and more data and more and more corrections, and better and better predictions. So we realized we would get to that point. And then, you know, then we raised the seed round back in 2017. And, you know, started developing, Grant What a great journey. I love this story. So tell me about impact outcomes. So you talked about a large number of customers that are using the platform now, what is what's been the results that they've seen? Alex Yeah, so we see. So there's a couple of numbers that we that we statistically enroll from the from the customers, we see that customers have about 80% reduction in the overall time spent on the process. And that comes from two things. One is the percent of fully autonomous. So let's say you're 50%, fully autonomous, that means you spent zero time on 50% of your volume. And then that other part, we've drastically reduced the number of minutes in two seconds. For each transaction a human has to review because the AI has done all the upfront work, humans just reviewing it, rather than sort of processing it from scratch. So you're at seconds rather than minutes. This turns into sort of an 80% reduction in in time. You also have things that we do like prevent duplicate payments, and we have some fraud detection in the system. So you also have some of those benefits that can turn into multimillion dollar when you have a large enough cost base. And then we have audit trails in the system, which helps with figuring out you know, making sure that you know, all of the approvals are doing rights. If anyone has changed in amount or something. It's all logged into the system electronically. So you have some some compliance and auditing benefits from it as well. But right now the main, the main effective impact our customers have, and we typically sell to the mid market and enterprise. So these are larger organizations, they can have hundreds of 1000s, or millions even have sort of vendor bills per, per year, and a substantial amount of people and resources involved in dealing with that problem. So they see very significant ROI from it. Grant So to sell into that particular group, then I'm assuming you've got to have a decent amount of integrations into all of their incumbent systems, right, all of their ERP systems and CRM systems, etc. Right? What does that look like? Alex Yeah, that's, that's true. So we build out these connectors as we as we go, it does, for each connector, the first time we build it, it does take a little bit of time. And then once we have that connect, for instance, you know, to NetSuite or intact or Oracle, the, you know, the next customers that we bring on board, we can leverage the same connector. So it is it is some work initially to build out all of the ones that we need. And then you can grow and scale on top of that for the customer. This is no complexity like we're taking not on completely. So the only thing we need is to know what type of system they have. And we develop that connector as part of the offering. Grant So let's talk about looking to the future in terms of when I'm doing FPA, a financial planning and analysis and I'm, I'm looking at my numbers, and I want to leverage a view into the future. How does something like this help an organization with that? Alex Yeah, that's a, that's a beautiful question. And a big passion of mine, actually. So what we're doing now sets us up to solve that specific problem. So if you think of where we are, now we're in accounting. And what you're talking about is more finance, which is what we'll dive into the idea and the vision that we are getting to is that we want to develop an AI that's basically is a real time cost optimization engine that serves predictions and monitors that in real time, we will be able to help you project kind of what your cost base should be, and how you could reduce spend in various categories and with various vendors. That's that's the piece that we're trying to solve as part of that equation of the of the future. So that you always have multiple pieces of the accounting equation, you have the cost side, you have the revenue side, you have adjustments and close process. And we're trying to stay within one of them for now. And make sure we sold provide real true value in that swim lane before we move on from from there. Grant Yes, I think that part's fascinating, as well, I've seen and interacted with organizations that are trying to leverage shift P and A even into capacity and resource planning, and trying to figure out what that looks like, and especially with it what's going on in the world today, right, with certainly high inflation and certainly supply chain challenges. The need for this kind of capability, I think is dire. Right. I think having the ability to provide something like this sooner rather than later is really crucial. Alex Yeah, definitely. And I think the technology has the ability to hold much more context and see data across all of the things that buck forms, like ours can do in in, in a compliant and anonymized ways, you can see data patterns, you know, across different companies. So you can inform yourself, no more than just sitting looking at your own data sitting inside your own office and their own silo. So that I will, you know, in the future greatly help with, you know, capacity planning, or, you know, cost reduction initiatives and so on. So I think that's one of the powers of sort of, like the cloud combined with with AI and big data, if it's leveraged in the in the right way. Grant And so if I go back just one moment on something, so if we take an AI model, and and we take it through a data set, and we were able to get sort of two key views at it, one is sort of more hindsight, right? One sort of looking backwards, right? It's the AI is looking at it saying here were the drivers that that contributed to the certain behavior, right? So it's more analytic Right. But then there's the other style of using it, which is looking forward, which is more predictive. And oh, okay, here's, here's where based on things we've seen, here's what the high predictive sort of correlations are opportunities are things that we expect moving in the future. When you when you look at Vic AI, and everything that you're providing, do you focus more on one side versus the other? Or you're combining both of those views together? Alex Hmm...yeah, we so in the, in the course of the work in the platform we have now, so every thing we do is a prediction on new data. So that means a new so if you sort of break it down into like, there's a new signal or a new transaction, or a new document coming in, that we've never seen before. And, and the platform then predicts what this is, Donald to vary like line item level detail, how to classify it, and so on. So it does predict this based on the algorithmic design, and the historical data that it seen both for this customer and globally. So it sort of is our engines are purely predictive in terms of what they're trying to predict what's going on. And you can extend that to two other parts, like we just discussed on the cost side as well. You can predict how how you should, you know, maybe they'll just classify this cost, but like, how, what your cost base should consist of a new look at categories. And you can sort of predict this based on your own current spend your growth in the company and maybe other comparable companies, so you can start predicting a journey based on the same technologies. Grant Awesome. So quick question for you, as COVID started to hit, obviously, a couple of years ago, and large companies have their AI models, you know, out there deployed, we're running, suddenly that disruption created an impact to the way in which business was typically being done, right. Not all industries were hit. But certainly a lot of industries are hit. And therefore, business operations changed. And the way in which people conducted business altered, which meant then, that those models were making assumptions based on former operational models, right former ways in which people executed, and therefore invalidated some of those predictive characteristics or capabilities of those models, which meant then, as you know that they had to go do some rework, right had to reduce retraining, right and update the data sets and so forth. So to what degree does Vic AI continually learn, right, so as you pointed out, you get a new document you've never seen before. At some point, I'm assuming it pulls it into its corpus, right? And it continues to learn or relearn on that. Can you talk to that? Alex Yeah. And it's a key feature of the platform, which, which is actually pretty enjoyable when you see it working in reality. So we, so for every transaction that goes through our platform, or every invoice or vendor Bill divest process through our platform, that leaves that leaves us with some learnings. So, you know, it's either it's corrected, and we made a prediction and a human chose to change it. Right? That is something that is fed back into our data set, and also our learning database of sort of, why would that ever happen? What did we get wrong in this prediction? And so for every prediction that we do, we learn something because if we predict something, and it's correct, we also learned something. So you know, we have millions of transactions just flowing through the system every month. And for each of them, we learn something so the system then improves basically, for each transaction that goes through the system. The level of, you know, transaction processing we're at isn't really affected by kind of like global changes, like you mentioned, for for COVID. Like, the only thing that could happen is you suddenly have some some new transaction because you need to do something differently, or you may have fewer transaction, which then just you know, is additive to our system. So you know, we will get something maybe we'll have lower confidence on this because this is something new. So you know, you will have a human come in there and tell the system what to do with this. And then that will be additive to the to the data sets and, and all the algorithmic design, if that makes sense. Grant It makes total sense. Absolutely. Yeah. And I loved how you tied the two together which is, well, I'm still gonna have the transaction. Although the world the macro world around me is changing the transaction occurs while may change is the rate of them. or how, or maybe even maybe even the units or the number of units, etc, right things like that will certainly or could change because of disruption. Being able to predict or understand how the organization can respond to, to disruption, I think becomes more and more critical, as we seem to continue to have more disruptions in business. Right? That happens a lot. Alex Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, what happened with with COVID specifically was also a lot of disruption in how people worked. And, you know, they were used to working from home and, you know, we have some, some of our customers, they have millions of invoices a year, which means, like, 1000s of invoices a day and, you know, suddenly you have, your whole workforce is like, not as productive as they were when something like this happens. But you know, you still need or your your system to be updated, you still need to pay your vendors on time. And otherwise, you know, you'll incur fees, and it'll so just like having an AI system in there that doesn't sort of care about those things. It has the same throughput and outputs 24/7 all year around, makes you very resilient for for sort of things like that are like workforce changes. Grant So that's the right word resilient, you want that organizational resilience, and as the point I wanted to drive out, which is, even though there's these disruptions that take place, most of which are outside of our control, getting our companies into a position to handle and respond properly or well, to that, or to pivot is what organizational resilience is about. And my experience has been AI is one of those tools to help us do that. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Okay, I want to ask you a very forward looking question. Right? You're ready? Yeah, sure. All right. So I'm not going to ask what are you going to do Norway? Or what I'm asking is tell me about blockchain? What does that mean to you in your world and things that you're doing? Alex Yeah, I mean, that's, we've been thinking about that. And, to be, to be honest, we haven't really seen yet the connection between specifically what we do and how to leverage a blockchain effectively, I like the technology of a blockchain is really awesome. And it can unlock a lot of things. But it doesn't mean that you need to use it for everything. One thing that I think could be an interesting exploration is when you start looking at accounting, ERP data, and whether the accounting systems could run and have their data in a blockchain that is verifiable, to prevent all sorts of, you know, fiddling with the data. That could be an interesting application for for blockchain in in our area. And there's clearly things around, you know, like money movement and value movements that blockchain can solve pretty pretty well. So just in the layer where we are, we haven't really found a great application that applies to us with the blockchain. Yes, but I think that technology is super fascinating. And I think that there are many areas where it is a superior technology to sort of like the trust based system that we have now. And it's an epic thing, when you can run that successfully in a resilient way. Grant When you think and that that makes a lot of sense. It's, it's got some, as you pointed out some interesting potential benefits to the industry. But I suppose at some point, it doesn't really matter where the transaction sits for you, right, in terms of the problem that you're solving, right? In other words, whether it's sitting on a blockchain or it's somewhere else and an Oracle ERP or whatever, right to it, at some point, that probably doesn't matter. Right? Alex Yeah, for us, the Store of the the sort of the store of the data ultimately is for us in the ERP system. And we are not an ERP system, we just layer on top of the ERP systems. So that is the ultimate sort of storage of the data. And that's where if, if, if at all the like blockchain technology could be leveraged to, to kind of store data in in a safe and transparent way. But there's also some new or some transparency issues with accounting data as well, that's going to be kept in mind. Grant Yeah, I would imagine that one of the greatest use cases to for what it is you provide is in the area of fraud to fraud detection, right the ability to regardless of where the data sitting, and regardless if it's on a blockchain or in an ERP system, you Your ai i would imagine would help to discover or uncover some of those potential opportunities. Is that accurate? Alex Yeah. And you have this this platform benefit as well is what if one customer sort of reports. So what happens a lot is just invoice fraud, right? You have, you have invoices that are not from the vendor that they appear to be from. And you have different variations of trying to change payment details, and you know, all of that. So when you see when you see data across 1000s of customers, you, you have a way of detecting those things, and at least flagging them for like, Hey, someone should have an extra look at this, because something may be up, if we're all good with it, that's fine. But you know, have an extra Look at this. And for people, you know, when we, as people, when we're doing something for six hours straight, you know, the last few hours, we're just like, you know, we're just clicking enter and trying to get, you know, the day over with, and, and things can easily pass by that shouldn't pass by. So this is this is problematic in two ways. Number one, your accounting data could end up being wrong, like you just have things that are misclassified. And then you can have things that are, you know, paid, or you're paid twice, or you pay the wrong thing, or you pay an extra zero, you have all of these things that are just humans are it's easy for humans to do those mistakes. And you just want to sort of get rid though those with a technology that can help you remove all of those errors. And we know how, you know, a billion dollar cost base? Just you know, half a percent is, you know, quite a lot. Grant A big number. Yeah, it is. Yeah, you'd hate to get false positives on a fraud situation, right, where you might be accusing someone that, that they've conducted fraud, when in fact it was was just a mistake. This is fascinating technology. So, Alex, where do people go to? I mean, where can you point them to, to learn more about you and your organization? Alex Yeah, I mean, the website is, is the safest place to go right now. So just go to Vic.ai. And we have, we have a good bit of marketing collateral and informative collateral blog posts, we try to educate the customers and the finance team. So finance teams are interestingly, you know, they're, they're not buying new things that often because you know, your ERP system, you have it for a very long time, which which you definitely should. So you know, you're not like a high. There's no high velocity necessarily on procuring things for the finance team. And, and we try to do a lot of educational material as well, because AI is new, but it has true effects or the finance team, and they'll find them blog, blog posts and collateral and can happily reach out to us and we'll help guide anyone through the process. Grant Oh, okay. That's, that's awesome. Alex, you've been so generous with your time here today, especially as you're getting ready to jet off into the sunrise just real quick. Any last comments that you want to share? Alex Um, I think this has been this has been a cool chats. It's been it's been really good. I love talking about, of course, AI and our company, but also the technologies in general. So I think this has been been super cool. And I think that it, you know, it's just wanted to say that we've we've spent a long time building the platform, so glad it's not complex for the customers right now, all of the AI performance, which is actually mind blowing, but you have no level of complexity. So, you know, if you if you want to get started with with AI for a function, this is a very specific function within invoice processing, where you can deploy AI, get the effects out of it with no complexities, and we'll deal with all of that for you. Grant That's actually the beauty of this, you know, to be able to get that down to a few points. Now splint clicks on a SaaS solution. They have all that taken care of, I've written my share of AI code, and oh, my goodness, the fact that you've handled that so seamlessly for the business people is huge. Nice job. Really great job on that. Yeah. Thanks. Great. Alex Thank you. Grant Thanks for taking the time today. Again, Alex. My gosh, this is awesome, everyone. Thanks for listening to another episode of ClickAI Radio. And until next time, go check out Vic.ai. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit clickairadio.com Now.  

INTRODUCTION: Alex Sanfilippo is the host of the top-rated podcast called Podcasting Made Simple. He is also the founder of PodPros.com, a software company focused specifically on the podcasting industry. Alex and his team have created popular services like PodMatch, a service that matches podcast guests and hosts together for interviews, and PodcastSOP, a project management tool that helps podcasters keep up with their episode releases.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      The Significance Of Making It To Episode #50 In Podcasting·      The Awesomeness of PODMATCH!!!·      Leaving Corporate America To Become An Entrepreneur ·      Pitfalls To Avoid In The Podcasting Industry ·      The Investor Has The Upper Hand Always·      Get A MACBOOK – Just Do It·      Apps That Make Podcasting Simple·      Start Small And Build From There·      Why Do You Do What You Do?·      The Value Of The Still Small Voice CONNECT WITH ALEX: Website: https://www.PodPros.comLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexsanfilippo/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlexJSanfilippoYouTube: https://bit.ly/3smLjefPinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/podpros/_created/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ajsanfilippo/Twitter: https://twitter.com/Podpros.com  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello? Hello. Hello everyone. I am a self fucking excited to be releasing my 50th episode today. Thank you all so much for being with me on this journey. Many blessings be upon you today. I have with me, Alex, Sanfilippo the creator of pod match pod pros.com podcast SOP. He's the greatest, so many things, and he is largely responsible for me still being in podcasting today.This man is gorgeous. He has a gourd does mine and I am pleased to [00:01:00] introduce him to you all. So in today's episode, we're going to be talking about the significance of making it to episode 50 and podcasting the awesomeness of pod match some pitfalls to avoid in the podcasting industry, as well as why it's important to start small and not try to do everything all at once.And then build from there. Please listen close to this episode, Alex has a huge heart for humanity, and he's always coming up with ways to help others succeed in life. And I hope you succeed too. Yeah, well, I've got Alex Sanfilippo here with me today. I can't express how phenomenal the day is and how special it is because this is going to be my 50th episode. And we're going to talk about during this show, how big of a deal that is an Alex Sanfilippo is a huge reason why I've made it to episode 50 while I stayed in podcasting to begin with.And [00:02:00] so I really, really wanted to have him for episode 50, because these milestones, like the 50th episode, that 100, that was so in all of those things like that are very, very special. And you can't just have anybody on the show. Like it has to be somebody that means that something special insignificant.And so that's why I went with him, Alex, how are Alex: you? I'm great. I am just so thankful that you're having me for episode 50. Like I, I understand as a podcast for myself, like how big of a deal that is like, it's you, you didn't just wake up one day. You're like, oh, I need someone for my 50th episode. Like, you've been thinking about it probably since like episode 30 or 40, like who's going to be that 50 of episodes.I am just honored that you chose me to be here. Thank you so much for. De'Vannon: Oh, fuck. Yes. And so Alex created, okay. So his current website is pod pros.com. All of this information will go in the show notes. He's on all the social media and everything like that. Podcasting made simple as his podcast. I met Alex sometime last year when he sent [00:03:00] me an email to my sex drugs and Jesus account, introducing himself as the creator of an app called pod match.Pod matches like Tinder, but for podcast, guests and hosts. Now, usually I get bullshit in my inbox and I looked at his email and I was like, oh Lord, here we go. Another one of these motherfuckers trying to waste my time and shit. And I didn't open it at first because I had more pressing matters and shit.Then when I had time, I didn't delete it because I don't like to delete things until I at least purview purview them. And I looked at it and I was like, Hmm. This might be a little something here I might be able to work with. And then, so I messaged him back and then he had a very handsome photo in his email too.He's a very good lucky man, as you all can see. And and I was like, okay, he ain't bad looking. And he seems like he has a brain of there between those good looking ears. So then I responded back to him. Yes, there's more to, I need a man that I just looked good y'all he needs to have some common damn sense and some [00:04:00] sort of intelligence and some practical information I can work with, not just good looks.And so so he responded back to me personally, not his team with people that everything like that. I can't stand dealing with middlemen. And that comes back from my drug dealing days. But you know, he actually had useful information. His app is free, you know, you don't, you know, I didn't have to pay for it.And I was just starting and everything like that. And so I needed that option. And you know, and the rest is history. I ended up signing up for pod. And I'm still on pod match today and I'm still in business. So we're going to talk about pod match. Alex has a couple of different companies that he's dealing with it all have to do with podcasting.And we're gonna talk about podcasts, SOP, his podcast, lottery Southern come, a pod.style and the pod pros community in this show. That's the that's what's going to be coming up. [00:05:00] So tell us, Alex, what, what, what, what got you into this whole podcasting business? Alex: Well, first off I have to say thank you. I appreciate the fact that the one you think I'm good looking and two that you responded to me.Back back when I emailed you, I had just I'll share this real quick. I'll get into it, but I come from a background of, of corporates. I did 15 years in corporate. And if there's one thing that it taught me, it's how to write terrible emails. And thank you for the grace you had with me, because I look back at those emails now I'm like, what, why did I type that up?Like, it looked like a computer typed it up and like, just pick the words for it. It was so bad, but I was conditioned after 15 years of writing emails in corporate that I just didn't have to write a good email, but you had grace with me. You're one of the first people that give me a shot. And I'll say this Devon and writes the best testimonials for people.Like maybe it's just people you believe in. Like, but art, like if I'm having a down day, like when people were just being rude and mean to me, I'll go back and like, I actually have like pictures with your [00:06:00] testimonial on it and I'll go back and read that and be like, you know what, like we are doing something good here.Like forget this person who just wants to cuss me out for no reason. Right. Like they just are being mean. And I'll just remember people like Devon and that have helped me. So anyway, thank you for that. So to, to jump in, like I know I already mentioned the corporate thing, so I, I come from a background in corporate America.I was in the aerospace industry and I, I just hit a day where I was like, I think I'm ready to move on. Like, I want to do something. But I didn't know how to do anything else. So I was like, I don't want a nine to five job anymore, but I don't know how to do anything else. So I started a podcast to talk to people that had successfully left a nine to five job to become a full-time entrepreneur to kind of have like that financial time freedom.And because I wanted to learn and I couldn't afford the coaching necessarily. So I was like, it's like free coaching when you have a podcast, as you know, right. Like you get some of the best people, smart people in the world. You've had that tons of times on your show, haven't you, De'Vannon: you really do though.You learn, you learn so much of the huddles. Alex: Yeah. You really, I mean, you're like the number one student and all the listeners are the bonus. So [00:07:00] but anyway, so I started a show and just really started learning a lot about entrepreneurship. And while I was doing that, I knew I wanted to start a company of some sort, and I just fell in love with the podcasting space.Like in general, it's a real. Optimistic space full of like abundance mindset people, which is my tribe, right? Like we can all be kind and all have like a piece of the pie if you will. Right. And I just really respected that about the industry. So I decided I was like, you know what, I'm going to jump into this industry.And my show at that time did really well. So I started speaking on podcasting stages and doing some educational stuff, and I just started asking other podcasters what they're struggling with. And I defended, I can tenuously heard I'm struggling to find the right guests for my show, like the ideal guests for my show.And I just realized, you know what, there's probably a need to connect guests and hosts together. And to keep the story short, I just decided to build something that was really similar to a dating app, but for podcast guests and hosts. Now, granted, I'll say this I've been married longer than dating apps have been around.So I had no firsthand experience with it, but the one time I decided that's what I wanted to do. I went to a friend's house to hang out. [00:08:00] And I knew he was like being in the dating apps. Like he was recently single and just had all of them. So I'm like, Hey, can I just watch you for the next 30 minutes while we eat, play on your dating apps?And so he started like doing all these things and then you start getting concerned. Cause I started asking question, he goes, what's wrong, dude. Like, are you okay? Like you and Alicia good. I'm like, yeah, we're great. I'm like, I think I want to build one of these, but for something else. Anyway, long story short, we were able to develop just that.And it's worked really well to serve the industry. De'Vannon: Alicia is his beautiful wife and she helps them out there. She's a season like, you know, a really big part of you know, of, of all of that Alex does. Alex: Oh yeah. She's like the brain behind the operation in many ways. So De'Vannon: she, she definitely is. Now concerning.Those people who you say was cussing you out and everything. If you ever have that problem again, you let me know. I've got people who take care of them. Alex: Yes. I like it.De'Vannon: And then they won't ever bother you again. Trust me. [00:09:00]Alex: Yep. You know, you, you mentioned that if you don't mind the guy riff on that for a minute.So, so here's the thing. Like I I've trained me and my team. We're a small team, but I've trained people to remember one thing. Like, I mean, this is the sex drug and Jesus podcast. I'm gonna mention Jesus real quick. And like, for me as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus, I've always known that my job is to love people that aren't always lovable.And so I've just trained the team to think this way that Hey, hurting people, hurt people. So if somebody is hurting us is because they're hurting themselves and we might be the only love they get. So we're never going to retaliate in a menial. I might take you up on your offer, but you know, we were always going to respond in a loving way.Like we're not gonna go over the top of someone's just overall rude, like said something terrible. We're just gonna ignore it and let it go. But in general, if someone's like just being harsh rubric and responding in a really loving way, not necessarily to win them over, to make them a customer the other day, that might be the only nice person to interact with.So for us, we always remember that hurting people hurt people. And our job as a company is to love people. Like first and foremost, we are a [00:10:00] human to human business. So we're not like B2B or B to C. We call ourselves human to human. So H to H and our job is just to be the light for some people in the world, whether they become customers of ours are members of ours or not.Right. And that day that's, what's important for us to do that. Mentality is not always easy to keep. That's why we actually have on our slack channel, a little channel called happy news, and people will just go back through and post nice things people have said about us and your name comes up a lot. So I'm always just thankful to see your name come from.Like, that's somebody who actually like, if I need to jump on a call and I need them to take care of. If I needed somebody to take care of this, this mean guy, right? Like demanding is my, my, my contact. So I'm good to go, but I appreciate you. Thank you. De'Vannon: Yeah, I'll say the, yeah. Or as, as the everything that's stated in the Hebrew Bible each and every time we do to D though, to do good, that there's evil presence.And so these are the heart of what you're doing is to help, to elevate people. So if we're going to get spiritual about it and look at it, even metaphysically, you know, you're driving positive energy, negative negativity, doesn't want to see you prevail. [00:11:00] And so people who have been hurt when you say hurting people, hurt people, they are vulnerable more vulnerable to negativity than people who abide in a, at a more constant state of positivity.And so therefore negativity wants to attack you. It can do so through people who are catering to their pain rather than to their positive. And so you're doing the right thing by overcoming that with more positivity as the Hebrew Bible also says, we overcome that evil with good. And so so speaking of foolishness though, this sort of show here that, that, that I'm doing, it's kind of like a step away from the main, my main, you know, my main vein in a way, but I don't care because I wanted to do it because of the signal.Of the, you know, of who you are and why the show was here. So I want to talk about the issues that I had when I started podcasting and [00:12:00] everything like that. And that's going to get down into more of the the dark side, the taboo side of things, which is the main vein of the show. So this isn't really like a businessy podcast.We're still gonna talk some shit y'all Alex: please. I hope so. By the way, this is the first time in like probably almost a year that I've come on a podcast. It's not specifically about podcasting. So I am down for anything which I know your show is all about. So I am here to get into whatever we want to, but honored to go whatever direction you want.But thanks again for having me. De'Vannon: Absolutely. Thank you for, for coming. I would like when I met you, I was like, I gotta help you. He wants to come on my show. I know this is really, really wild and not conservative.So I was writing my book, sex drugs, and Jesus, my memoir, and then someone told me, Hey, it's a good idea to start a podcast. You know, to have basically a cross promotion thing and already built an audience and everything. And I'm like, oh, that's a good idea. The same person also went about the business of introducing me to their podcasting team that was helping them.[00:13:00] And so, so I hired them and everything for a ridiculous amount of money. When I, when I met you, I think I was paying about like 1500 a month. Okay. So they were charging me like say $150 or $200 per person just to have someone come on my show. Now these are just recycled people that this other guy who already knew who had already been on his show.So all they were doing were sending an email and saying, Hey, will you come on this new podcast that we are starting? And we have something to do with, so that's, what's called hustling. This is the danger of dealing with middlemen and stuff like that, because they're going to charge you a lot of money and stuff like that.And so now I'm paying $150 a week for show notes. You know, and, and things like that. And so basically 450 to $600 per episode, just to get it created. And this is a large reason why people don't either get into podcasting or stay in it because it looks more expensive than it has to be. I fell into the same trap myself.[00:14:00] So I had pause the creation of it because I was like, this is incredibly expensive. I don't really like the energy of dealing with these people. I feel like I'm being used and hustled and taken advantage of, there's got to be a simpler way. I didn't know what way when I searched the Google and everything like that, I would find these companies doing similar things as them, Hey, come pay us this exorbitant amount of money.And we're going to get you on these big shows and everything like that. No guarantees the one who's going to benefit you or not. But you know, it was that same thing. And then you messaged me and I was like, okay, I can do it for free or this like $39 a month. If you want the upgraded version of hot and match, which I went with because that's a hell of $39 a month is a lot cheaper than 1500.It's Alex: good math De'Vannon: right there. So right. And so. I want you to speak to me, Alex, about some of the bullshit that people have come to you, crying, groveling and crying. Just like I did licking their [00:15:00]wounds saying, please help me. I don't want to quit podcasting. What helped me? What, what, what sort of shit have you seen people been going through Alex: all kinds of things.I mean, that's a perfect example of something that's very common and what happens. I just called the people that are those hustlers lever. We want to call them. They're like the gurus of the industry and maybe guru shouldn't be a bad word, but my head, if someone tells me they're podcasting guru, I'm going to be like, that's a red flag.Like, what does that mean? You know, like, why are you a guru? And like, what are you teaching other people to do? It's, it's just, it's so common. And it all starts from taking advantage of somebody who has a passion and interest, something they're trying to do. Like your show is extremely purposeful. Okay.Sex drugs. And Jesus is like a purpose-driven show. Like you have a plan for it, you know where it's going. Maybe it started as a hobby and maybe it still is a hobby, whatever you want to call it. But the, of the day it is, it's something that actually adds value to people's lives. And you have a specific focus on it.And those are the people that get taken advantage of because somebody knows, you know what? This person's passionate. They want to do [00:16:00] this. They're willing to invest. I'm going to charge them way too much. And I don't like to ever talk bad about anybody, but it, it doesn't have to be that way in podcasting.It's just people taking advantage of somebody who wants to, who wants to explore that passion. And that it's, it's something that's very common. If you use Google to this day, you're still most likely going to find those types of people, but there are alternatives. Thankfully, there, there are other ways around it.You don't have to spend an arm and a leg to do it at the end of the day. Maybe if you're in a place financially where makes sense and you just don't want to touch anything, right? You want to wash your hands up at salmon record. I'm not gonna touch anything else ever. You could go for it. That would be fun if it keeps the main thing, the main thing while for, but then the day, most of us are not in.I'm not in that boat. Most people aren't right. They just doesn't make sense. So, I mean, I've seen all kinds of things like this happen and people fall into the trap of this is the only route. So I think the first thing I really want to get in people's heads that are listening is that if you have a passion or something you want to do with the podcast, you do not have to go that route of spending a ton of money.There are alternatives, and you can work your way up to things. If you're saying eventually I want to outsource this or do [00:17:00] that, but you can start everything on your own with just, I don't know the exact dollar amount, but probably less than $50 a month. You could have, you could be doing really well at that dollar amount De'Vannon: right now.And I stayed with podcasting because along I started. Because of the reasons that they told me like, Hey, this would be a good compliment of being an author, but I stayed with it because in the process of doing it, I realized that this is basically like a every show is like a message preached. Every show is a testimony, if you will, but this is better than just standing up and testifying on a Sunday morning and charity hallelujah, or preaching a message because it's recorded and it'll outlive me.So even if somebody stops the podcast, though, that those shows are main, you know, out there and they can always be accessed until the end of time. And so have, have, after having gone through everything, I went through being homeless and, you know, getting HIV and everything like that. And living on the streets and being a drug dealer.And I started kind of tip telling in and out of churches. Again, it never really [00:18:00] felt right or came to me to like stand up and speak about the deliverance that God had given me. The words never came. I considered maybe was there something wrong with me or something like that, but it just. God is preferred platform for me, I think podcasting was because I get to tell it again and again and again, from different angles all the time.And then people can access it at their leisure, which is better than just speaking to one congregation. And so I want to remind people though, that when you have the money to spend on things and stuff like that, and these people are trying to corral you that you, the investor, you have the upper hand always.And it's very, very interesting how, when those of us who have some expendable income to spend on something are spending it, but the, the team, the assistance, or whatever, try to, there's almost like they have a way of seizing this control over us, even though we're the ones with the money. So have you, have you ever seen that sort of mindfuck before?Alex: Yeah. You know, before [00:19:00] I answer that I got to go back to something cause your mom, this show being like, it's an extension of you. This is how you can leave a legacy. I'm about halfway through episode 39 with branch and he talked about guilt combination. Like being so hard on yourself, like, and how to stop doing that.It's easily. One of the most profound, powerful podcast episodes I've ever heard, and I'm not even finished with it yet. I encourage everybody. Who's hearing this. It has not listened episode number 30, nine of sex, drugs, and sex drugs, and Jesus go back and listen to that episode. It is again profound. So what you're doing here is going to leave a legacy.Like I believe people will be listening to that episode alone for forever, right? Like that's going to be something can always go back and really help people a lot. And going back into what you're talking about now, like, yeah, even if you have, if you have the money, like you're saying, it's good wisdom, you do have control.When I got started, I didn't necessarily have a lot of money, but I thought that I had to use, I start off with somebody to edit. Everything I read was the editing is almost impossible, which isn't the case, but everyone thing was like, Hey, you're not gonna be able to edit yourself to me too much. And I [00:20:00] went with the most recommended one I could find they were charging me, like shot, just shy of $200 per episode.I didn't have that money back then. And I felt like I was trapped because they were like, Hey, you need to buy this in sets of 10, because you're going to save X amount instead of just buying one a time. And then the next time they're like, Hey, you should buy 30 because your show is doing well, you need to keep it going.And I felt like I was, I was like, okay, this is a money pit, but I know it's helping people, but I'm not making any money yet. Like, what do I do? Do I just outpace it until eventually I can pay for it? Like, what do I have to do here? And that was the first time I started talking to other podcasters. This was early in my journey.This is like around the time of the launch of my show. And when I started talking to their podcasters, I felt empowered because they're people like, oh, well, no, you could do it yourself here. I'll, I'll teach you. Like, let's do like a quick zoom and I'll show you like how I edit really. And it wasn't until I got around the community of people that I started feeling like I could get freedom from the people trying to charge me a lot of money to do podcasting.And again, if you do have the money and you just say, I don't want to touch it fine, you can. But then the day, I think [00:21:00] there's something to be said for someone who learns how it works. Anyway, for me, like I don't do all of podcasting anymore. Like I'm not the only guy in my team. There's multiple people now that I've actually hired that I'm getting a good deal on, but I know how every piece of the puzzle works.So when one of them says, I'm struggling to keep up. I'm not like, wow, you lose our cable. If you're not keeping up, like, what's wrong with you? I'm not saying that because I can go back and be like, you know what? I remember how much work that was. So I can say, how can I support that? Do you want me to come in and help edit a little bit more?Do we need another team member? Like what do we need to do to improve that? So I think there's something to be said for us, sitting back, taking a little bit extra time and learning all the elements of podcasting, just like anything else in life. When you know it all, you don't necessarily need to do it, but you have at least empathy towards someone else who might be doing something that you previously didn't under.De'Vannon: You better preach it on a Tuesday afternoon. And so like that for a second, you're going to use it. I use my Mac book, which I tried this doing this on like on a windows computer. Don't you need to get a Mac book once you go Mac it's true. I was reluctant, oh my God. This thing is like an electrical [00:22:00] orgasm.Every is perfect about this fucking thing. Fuck PC. You need an Mac baby, honey. And they Alex: better be paying you. That's all going to say they better be paying.De'Vannon: They will, when they damn it, they will. Alex: I believe it. De'Vannon: And so. That's it just that I use an app called transistor to distribute it. So if you're wondering, how do you get your show on all of these 50 million? Really literally about 20 different podcasting platforms is just put on one place and it's distributed automatically is really just that simple.And then Alex told me about the script, which is how I learned how to edit it myself, edit each show myself rather than paying. I think it was $200 per show for editing. I think the script might be like $10 a month. I do the annual thing and I think transistor might be like 10 or 20 a month. So like you said, it's true.You need less than $50 to [00:23:00] have all the, all the, all the things to do a show. You get yourself a good mic. That camera. Or you could start with just the Mac book, Mike and camera is, you know, not necessarily the best, but it's better than than nothing. And I don't want people to get obsessed with feeling like you have to have the top of the line, everything and all of these sound mixing boards.I know, I know, I know people who Who feel the need to do that? Like, like when they start, they go, okay, let me go on Amazon or somewhere and get this whole podcast production, kit and everything like that. And I know so many people who do that. What do you have to say about like starting equipment?Alex: You know, start with what you have.You're talking about a Mac. If you have like a brand new Mac book, the built-in camera and Mike is actually pretty good. Like, no one's ever gonna be like, oh, what's that terrible sound? Now don't like, use your, your cell phone. You know, like don't even, even an iPhone, isn't gonna be near as good as the actual Mac book, like start with what you have.And here's like, my I'll dive in a little bit more, but here's what I'll say [00:24:00] overall about this. People will forgive you for the quality of like the sound and the production. They won't give, forgive you for the lack of quality of content. So again, the sound and all the production doesn't have to be the best, but the content itself.Isn't good. And then one can forgive you. Now, what I mean by that is you could have the most expensive mic on the planet. You could spend 50 grand on your setup. If what you're saying, isn't good. No one cares about the other side of it, right? So at the end of the day, you need to try like putting a little bit effort, of course, like do your best to, to soundproof a little bit or whatever you do, but don't go over the top with it, focus on having really good content and over time things can improve.I've got a shirt M V seven. I'm not great with the tech stuff. MV seven is what it's called. I think I paid $220 for this mic. And this is like my forever mic. I'll use this one for as long as I podcasts before this, I had a mic that was about $80. Wasn't great. But here's the thing that got me through my first, like 80 or 90 episodes.No problem. And, and it was great. It worked, worked really good. So at the end of the day, really focus again on the quality of the [00:25:00] content. And don't go over the top on the production. I think that a lot of us defendant, we get nervous about the idea of starting a show. So we just fully engrave ourselves in all the things, right?Like, oh, I need to like learn the best sound I need to buy this mic. I need to test out of. What I challenge you to do is just press the record button and get started. I'll tell you who really, really spoke this to me in a big way with Jack, actually, Seth Goden. He and I had a conversation at one point, and he's like a marketing, like genius.The guy's brilliant. And he told me, he's like, Hey Alex, all right, let's imagine that you're a lifeguard. You're brand new. It's your first day on the job. You're out there by the water. And you see somebody on the ocean. Who's drowning now because you're new and not experienced. You see that person drowning is your reaction to go find a really experienced lifeguard and say, hold on.I know someone would be really good at saving this person. Let me go run back to the lifeguard station and find them, or you just going to jump in the water, not think about it as sloppy as it is, do your best to save that person. Every single time. Everybody who is in that scenario is going to jump in the water and do their best to save that person no matter how pretty or ugly it ends up looking.That's just our [00:26:00] instinct. And I think that with content creation, we have to remember that what we're doing is serving the world, but it doesn't serve the world. If you don't hit the record button again, you might not have all the best gear. You might not have everything that you feel that you need to be super successful with it.When you don't hit publish when you don't hit record, it's not serving anybody. So start off by serving people and then focus on continuous improvement over time. And eventually you might sound really good and get really great at it. But today, do your best to serve people where you're at. That's my little rant right there, rant De'Vannon: on.And so it just like with all things, we get better over time, you don't start anything as an expert or as a fully proficient that would Rob us of the of the fulfillment that comes when we grow. If we just, we're just perfect at everything from day one, you know, it doesn't work like that. And yeah, I did that on the PC, but like Alex was saying, we had to start somewhere.Look, you can do it if you have a PC, but just what mine's, the bitch was slow. And it took like 50 minutes to do shit on my Mac book. It takes like two [00:27:00] minutes. So it just really pressured me to create it more stress. But if you have a PC, then baby, you start with the PC, just like I did. And when you can afford to.Upgrade to the Mac, or you can get you an apple card and then you can get just finance the ship interest free on your apple card. And in terms of like the sound quality and yeah, I'm almost like my third mic too. You know, I think we all do that, you know, got that fucking mic, fallen out the closet, you know, from when we upgrade and shit.So the script that, that, that app that you recommended to me, they have two features on there that will really take away. Most of your worries. They're really all of your worries when it comes to how you're going to sound. There is a button that you can click to enhance your recordings. And so it'll take your voice and pull it forward.Like the voice of yours and your guests, and really clean it up. It eliminates background noise. Is it like the damn dogs that get out when you just knew you had them put up and shit like that? And the, in my [00:28:00] case, the birds and the pages and shit that fly by the window. Cause I live next to a nature Oasis, basically in my backyard.And then there's another button on there. You can click, that'll get rid of filler words. And by filler words, I mean like oohs and OMS and stuff like that, which annoys, some people doesn't really bother me. But just with like with one flip of the switch, you can just get rid of them all. So this shit is not complicated to do.We record these meetings and zoom. Some people use other apps. I like zoom. They're simple. They've been around a long time. They're quick, concise until. And then once you press the record button, once it's, once it's over, it will convert it to an MP3 MP4 or whatever the damn audio file is. And then that's what you put into the script.And in the script, we'll transcribe, it it'll create a transcript for you, which you can in turn use for your show notes for your search engine optimization and all of it later on. So it's a bit of a learning curve. It's not as hard as you might think. But it's worth, it was worth [00:29:00] me learning to save four or $500 a month to do so don't let people hustle.You try to act like this shit is complicated because they're using the same damn programs that we're telling you right now and charging you an arm and a Dick for it. And then try to act like they're doing something special. No, but they do in the same damn thing. Alex: You know, w one more piece of advice I like to give to people is if you're listening to this show, like you're, you're hearing, you've been.The sex drugs and Jesus for a long time. Right. And Devon, and speaking like your language, like I want to start a podcast, email demand and say, I've got a hundred dollars with your name on it. If you'll just give me 30 minutes of your time. Cause that would be so valuable. I think that if someone spent 30 minutes with you now, knowing what you know about podcasting, you could probably save them thousands of dollars just by the little bit of knowledge that you're sharing here, but going a little bit more in depth, showing somebody how to record for 30 minutes.I bet spend that a hundred dollars would again, save somebody hundreds of hours and probably thousands of dollars. I mean, you'd probably agree, right? If day [00:30:00] one, you're getting ready to start. If someone could have been like, Hey, hold on, let me show you this. That would have saved you a lot. I'm imagining, right.De'Vannon: Oh sure. I mean, I have a personal guide to go. Here's transistor. Here's the script and everything like that. I mean, knowledge is power. Yeah. And as they say it isn't said as the Hebrew Bible, you know, my people perish for a lack of knowledge, you know, we, we literally discharge ourselves for not doing research.So it's a good thing to be passionate, but then the Hebrew Bible also tells us that knowledge zeal without knowledge is destructive to, or it's not good. I don't know if it's destructive, but it's not good to have zeal without knowledge. It's basically, I want to get up and go do shit, but I don't want to take time to study about what the fuck I want to go do.Sometimes Alex: that's the problem with the world in it. De'Vannon: And so, oh, I hear a Republican echo what you just said. And Alex: I, oh, no, I like it. I like to sit in the middle instead of politics. So I hope I didn't sound too much like that. [00:31:00]De'Vannon: Oh, this is how this is just me because of the things going on inside of me and how I feel about them.So whenever somebody says something about like people who are extreme for seemingly no logical reason at all, they're the first things that come to my mind because Alice is not political. I became political a couple of years ago, so I always say, fuck Republicans. And I always say, I wish Democrats would grow a pair of balls and do more with the power that they have.So it sounds like Alex: you're right in the middle with me then. Sounds exactly like where I sit. De'Vannon: Oh, well that's the middle then there was this Malcolm in the middle of this shit. That's an old show. Y'all.You mentioned earlier about people like being passionate about starting their podcast, you made the analogy of the lifeguard and everything. And so, so y'all when you're thinking about starting a podcast, let's not get caught up in what seems like the glitz and the glam of it all. Hey, I've got to show, [00:32:00] you know, it looks like people are making a whole lot of money.You're going to be the next fucking, I guess if you would want to be someone like Joe Rogan or, or, you know, whoever hell is on serious or whatever the case may be, you know, making good bajillions of dollars and everything like that. Okay. So the way you got to go about this is like you, you got to pray about it, meditate, whoever, whatever deity you worship, or if you don't do any of that, get in your head, why you want to do it for reasons other than fame.And then if one day you have. To reach the level of, you know, how a shore, you know, or someone like huge, huge, huge, huge, huge, all the better. But if that doesn't happen, then you're totally happy and satisfied anyway. So why, and this is a big thing with you, Alex, you always challenged, you know, people, you know, why, what's the, why?What's the why? Why are you here? Why are you doing this? I always say, I need you to not even know why I feel the way I feel, why I believe what I believe, why am I doing what I'm doing? So if you're going to start a [00:33:00] podcast and there's all kinds of podcasts from people talking about gossip, the clothes, the shoes, the titties, the sex to music, to business, so much business.There's a good variety, but why do you want to do it? And what, what unique thing do you have to say? Are you just trying to, and like, and there's nothing wrong with looking into it, some stuff we start and we don't finish it. And there's no shame in that because we're all on a journey. So anything more you would care to say about.About purpose. Alex: Yeah. I think that this is, like you said, this is where I always tell people to start, because what I find is people burn out too quick because they didn't sit back and think about their why. And like you're saying, people go to the, the, the wanderings of the world, like, that's one of the big networks.The MPRs is the cereal that the Joe Rogan's right? Like these, these big names and podcasts and say, I want to do that, but you and I know this, like no one ever got famous because they wanted to be famous. Right? Like there has to be something that you do. And it wasn't usually [00:34:00] most of the time I'd say it wasn't their initial tent.They started something because they cared. They had a why behind why they were doing it the first place. And I find that people start instead was saying, I'm gonna get rich. I'm gonna get famous. I'm gonna quit my job. When that doesn't happen, they quit really. Like, they just stopped way too soon. But if, instead you say, you know what I really care about, there's always dogs walking by my window.I don't know why, but I have like a busy street and there's like people with their dogs, like all the time, I care about dog walking. So we use that as an example. Right. And how to get help your dog be more appropriate when you're walking them. So they don't go off to every squirrel and bark at every other dog.Right. Like if you're passionate about that and you have like a real, why behind that matter to you about how, like you used to be embarrassed about taking your dog out for a walk. Cause it was so misbehaved, right? Like if you had that, why behind it? And that's why you decided to do this, you might do really well in that niche, but you've got to sit down and decide, okay, why am I going to do this?I want to help educate other people, but they don't have to be embarrassed about their dog. Right. And I, I don't have a dog. So this is probably a terrible example. But you get the idea. I'm saying you pick that little focus and say, this is who I'm going to speak to. [00:35:00] I'm doing it because I care because I want to help someone else not struggle.The way that I did when you start with that, it makes it a lot easier for you to keep on going when things get. Cause defendant, you talking about like doing the editing and stuff like that. And yeah, we found some, like, you have found a really simple way to do this and your show sounds really good. So anyone could duplicate that, right?Like you could teach someone to do that. And like I said, probably 30 minutes, someone would be set up to win in podcasting, but in the day you still have to sit and do the work at some point when those times get tough and you have that strong, why you can say, you know what, I'm doing this for my neighbor.They really need to hear this episode. I've got to get this out. But if you're saying I'm not getting any richer, I'm not getting more famous. Why am I even wasting my time? You're going to stop too soon. And now the flip side is something that you mentioned as well, which is some people they, they just are trying it out there.Their friend does it. And they're like, oh, I'm gonna try doing. There is no harm in that. If you do three episodes inside, it's your least favorite thing on the planet. At least you can say you tried it so you don't need to go through all this, unless you feel that there's a real reason for it. If you're just exploring a passion or a potential passion or hobby, go for it.There's no reason to stay in it. If it's just not right for you, don't feel like you have to. There's [00:36:00] plenty of other mediums. But if you are getting into this for a specific reason and you know that there is some power behind it, start with that. Why really determine it. Sit down. I even talk about writing it out, write it out.Think about who is me listening, and then start going for it from there. De'Vannon: Child. See, that's why I had to have you on my show. You have a clear mind, you have, you're just teaming and overflowing with posse own. Then all the things that makes people want to get up and do shit. You're like a natural born leader.Like, like, like Barack Obama, you know, the main reason why white people, not all white people, but like a lot of them, a lot of Republicans really hate him is because he has that essence, that flare, that thing, you can't go to school for. Nothing wrong with going to leadership schools and all of that. You know, people got their different ways of some people are just born with that thing that makes people want to get behind them and their delivery when [00:37:00] they're talking.And speaking is as though they've done it ever since eternity was spawn into motion that you have that same spirit about Alex: you. Thank you. That totally just made my day. I could go ahead and we can hang up now and I'm good to go, actually, you know, I always say this, I, when, when Obama was leaving office after a second term, I always so president Obama was like on his way out.I always say no matter who's president for the rest of my life, they're never going to be that polished. Like, there's just no way, like, we're all gonna have to get used to a lower standard of like just the ability to speak. Cause everyone else talks. And I'm like, what are they trying to say? Like spit it out, man.You know? Like, but so yeah, I mean, president Obama set a standard from that regard. I, I appreciate you even putting me in that category. Like I said, just made my day. Thank you for that. De'Vannon: You know, only speaks the truth. Alex: I know it, you know, actually that's one thing that I just, I have to say this, I actually reminded myself, I put it down on a piece of paper cause earlier.So for me being a Christian, like I don't mean over spiritualize things, but I was going to, I prayed about this interview today, knowing it was coming up, prayed for you as well. And I felt like God reminded me of like [00:38:00] your, your genius, if you will, you've got a sense of boldness and realness that is just so rare in the world.And I believe that that's why you're going to succeed so much in the world. Like you're already succeeding, but I just believe that it's just gonna continue to multiply and God's going to bless the fact that you're again bold and you're real. Those just aren't things anymore. Like in today's world, unfortunately not like it used to be at least.And you have that rare gift and I just really respect that from you. And, and so I just wanted to say thank you for that. I had to say some time during this interview. De'Vannon: Thank you. I appreciate your kind words. I want you to remind me though, cause I seem to remember my research. If you like in the beginnings of pod match, Like maybe you were doing yard work or something like that.And you had like an epiphany or like something, some sort of knowledge came to you in a, in a it's like you went back inside and you started writing. Alex: Oh yeah, I definitely wasn't doing yard work. I live in a condo because I hate yard work so much. So you De'Vannon: were doing something else that you stopped Alex: it?[00:39:00] Yeah, I was actually working out, so it was right at the beginning of COVID and I was doing like a kettlebell workout. Cause I only had a few things at home at that point. Like I had to buy equipment, but I had like a kettlebell. So I was like swinging a kettlebell, like thinking about this idea and literally, I can't even explain it the van and like, it just like, it hit me at one.I've got not the weight, but I mean like the the idea hit me. I put down the weight, I ran inside to some whiteboards and I have three whiteboards behind, like where I'm at right now behind like this screen here. And I just mapped the whole thing out. Like it just hit me in an, in a moment. Can't really.It just came out of nowhere. Like again, when I'm working out, I'm not usually thinking of business, but it just, it really hit me in that moment. And you talking about pod match? Oh, so sorry. Yeah. Pod match specifically. Cause I came back from a conference I spoke at right before the world shut down like a week before the world shut down, which a 2000 person conference.It was the first week of March, 2020. And that's where people continuously were telling me I'm having trouble finding guests for my show. And it was interesting that same conference there's people there that were like, Hey, I just released this book. Do you know any podcasts about this? I [00:40:00] could talk to you.And I was actually saying, oh, I just talked to that person, come over here. Let me introduce you real quick. So it's making those connections there and I'm not always the smartest guy in the world. I came home, not knowing what to do with that idea. And then when I was working, I was when that, when that came forth.So yeah, the idea for pod match came from during that workout is when it just really was like, this is what I've got to do. And it came to like a moment, you De'Vannon: know, that that was a moment of divinity. And this is the sort of thing that comes to people who call upon the Lord who call up on Who call upon the, you know, power is greater than a power greater than themselves, because there's been several times in my life in the Hebrew Bible and always referred to the Bible as the Hebrew Bible, because I always like to pay tribute and homage to the middle east from where the Bible really Alex: comes from.And I, but my mom is Hebrew. So I appreciate that. Do you speakDe'Vannon: the language? Alex: No, I take fully after my dad. Who's Italian. Sorry. [00:41:00]De'Vannon: He ruined Italian. Ain't a bad mix. Alex: Oh, no, not at all. I'm De'Vannon: happy. Pretty good. You know, the Hebrew Bible speaks to us about a still small voice. There was a prophet in, something was going on and it was like, you know, there was a fire and a wind, but God wasn't in the fire and the wind, but then they know here it comes a still a still small voice when I Gosh, I have so many examples.Let me see. What's a good one. And epiphany like that came when I was trying to get the name for my massage business, I was at a wine party and I didn't know what to name it. A friend looked up like in a moment, it's like, it just hit her from nowhere. And she was like, you need to find something has to do with your third eye.And then that's how I found the Swahili word for vision, which means my own. Oh. And my massage business was my own a massage and wellness. When I was coming off of being homeless and I was a janitor, I had walked off of the [00:42:00] gym to job as they pissed me off. And I was trying to figure out what to do. I was setting steals.And when it came to me to look up food delivery jobs, and I had like three felonies, I still have those felonies on my record and I couldn't get a job anywhere. And I thought about that and I ended up being able to get hired that way. It's it's, didn't like these quiet moments in a workout is a quiet time and meditation as a form of active meditation to me.Yes. You know, I feel like the Lord can speak to us because our minds are not as busy as they usually are. And so the Lord can slip an idea into our conscious, you know, and then we can immediately go and do something about it. So I was very intrigued when I read that, wherever it is that I've, that I saw that ad.And I was like, Hmm, it looks like the spirit spoke to Alex in this moment. And then re energized his soul to neatly go and do it because when God puts something in you, he also gives you the [00:43:00]energy to go about the business of getting it done. And then when other people are looking at you thinking, well, how is he doing that?And how is he keeping it all together? It looks exhausting because it's not their calling, you know what, you're yours. And so this work that you're doing is not just a natural work, but it's a spiritual. And you see not all forms of ministry have to do with preaching from a pulpit or be, or have to do with a church.When I was going to go be a recruiter in the air force, my spiritual leader, evangelists, Nelson who was a prophetess and her own, you know, in a, in a highly clever woman, you know, a true prophet is I don't, it's very hard to find people like that anymore, you know, and she was like, you know, that's ministry that you're going to go do.And I was like, recruiting, you know, what does that have to do with ministry and everything like that. But anything that you're doing to enhance somebody's livelihood is true religion. That is mission work that is outreach, and it can come in any kind of form. I don't give a shit if it's a Tik TOK channel, you know, so you don't have to go to church to do the lowers the work.[00:44:00]And so I just want it to really drive home the divinity that surrounds the brands that you've created and how divine the nature is of what you're doing at its core. Alex: Yeah, thank you for that. You know, you talking about this, like that still small voice. That's always been so true for me. And whenever someone in my life who I know who happens to also be a believer in Jesus when like, oh, I keep on asking God about this.He's just not answering. I always say, have you taken any time to listen? And the answer is always, no, not really. I'm like, well, if it's a still small voice and you're just, God help God, God, God, God, God. Like, you're not really given any time to hear anything. And in my life, that was not, that was not a normal moment for me to have like, yes, like you're saying like for me, I wasn't like listening to loud music.I usually don't listen to music while I work out. So it was quiet. So it is like somewhat therapeutic, but I didn't expect God to speak to me in that moment. I think he just needed my attention and you're right. And since then, I've learned to make intentional time just to sit down and be [00:45:00] quiet. Some people call it meditation.It's just like, you're, you're not letting your mind actively just run, just sitting down and like being present in that moment, being still. And any other idea of had is coming those moments. And people who maybe aren't spiritual at all right. Aren't into that stuff. This might sound totally crazy, but I can not really take full credit for any of my ideas now execution.I can, because at the end of the day, an idea, no matter where it comes from, it doesn't really matter if you'll don't do anything with it. So I've always been able to, to perform and execute at a high level, but I really give God the credit for the ideas that I've had. And that, that is my ministry. Like church, the churches here, where, where I live, they all shut down.When COVID happened, there was a year and a half where that wasn't even an option anymore. And so this just became my ministry. I was used to serving at church, like I was used to greeting at the door and picking up the trash. Like, those are the things I love to help do or parked cars, whatever it is. But then it just became, you know what, this is my ministry.This is what I have. And I felt like God spoke it to me. And I just have done my best to steward it really well. And I'm glad that you brought it [00:46:00] up that way. I've never gotten to share it quite like that before. De'Vannon: Hallelujah, tabernacle and praise it's it's. It's a good thing to always take the time to invite God into whatever it is that you're doing and to get quiet and listen.And just because you don't feel like you hear anything. And when we were talking about God speaking, y'all, we're not necessarily talking about an audible voice, although it's not like he can't do that as like you just kind of know, and you also understand that it's it comes with a zest of energy and inspiration.That is a part from how you usually are. And so when we say God is speaking or something like that, that's really generally what we mean. And so, so you create a pod match to bridge people, hosts and guests. How many people are on pod match now Alex: there at time of recording this there's about 27,000 people using it, De'Vannon: 27,000 [00:47:00] people.So. And then we said that the average to speak to us about the averages of about how many episodes, someone records before they quit the average in the Alex: industry. Yeah. So people who quit, unfortunately, it's called pod fade. It's like been used forever. You've heard pod fade. It's seven episodes is like the magic number that people would just like, I'm done forget this.Like that's where that people just tend to stop. But I decided to look past that. So let's imagine you get past the seven episodes, where do people stop the amount of people that make it to one year after passing the seven year mark? So I think it's something like 90% or 95% of people stop at seven episodes.So the 5% that keep on going 90% of them stop that before the end of one year. So, you know, granted one episode per week, let's just say 50. Like only a very small fraction are making it to that. Like, I don't know the exact number, cause I haven't been able to drill down to the data that much. Cause it's hard to really get access to, but it's, it's almost, nobody makes it to 50 episodes.Like that [00:48:00] is an extremely rare thing. And it's a huge achievement because it basically means if, Hey, if you're doing one episode a year or a day or a week after one year, you've got about 50, 52 episodes. Right. And so yeah, that's where people are really stopping it. It goes back to them and we said they don't have a strong wide and maybe they just want to test it and that's fine.Or they spent all their money trying to get those first few episodes produce and other out of, out of money. Cause they thought they had to go spend it all. Those are some of the most, those are the main reasons that was really hard. That's why people stop it at that really low number. De'Vannon: So. I want to dig deeper into pod match.So pod match, it's very, it's a very organized website. Another issue that I had when I had my team of assistant or whatever, my production team, fuckingfucking everything up and call it, creating stress on my life where they didn't need to be. So they booked this person. Now they got a. If I want to ask this person something, I have to let the assistant know, then they've got [00:49:00] an email them. Then I've got to wait for them to email me back. I got to request pictures to use for promotions that they had to request their bio.Then I got to talk about whether or not they're going to send me their book. You know, anything they might want to talk about it. It could take like weeks pod match with what Alex has done is combined everything into an electronic media kit on your profile page. So we're like on a dating app. If you're going to say that you're a five foot, two green eyes, brunette hair, 10 inch Dick, triple Z, boobs, whatever the fuck you want to say, you know, you like long walks and kayaking.Doing the bioluminescence and shit and all of that, you know, we're going to have on there, your biography about you, you're already approved photos. Your call to action, your links, your social media, everything is all on one side. And page 10, if you're a guest and 10 questions, you're ready to answer. So that way, when you evaluating somebody, these 50 questions that you [00:50:00] were going to ask them is already there before you, this is saving you time, energy, and effort.It's the problem is one of the greatest things that I appreciate about it. Cause I'm like this entire media kit is right here. It's already done. And there are other websites out there that are trying to do with pod matches doing, but they're failing miserably. Because I've been on some of those y'all were acquired.Who were those people, pod being, and that you acquired, then you gobbled them up and hopefully get the gobble more. Because as I meet people, say like, sometimes when I'm on, I have a standing profile on matchmaker.fm. I don't actively use it. I just leave it there. And if somebody messages to me then grapes, and then I tell them about pod match and they never heard of it.Then they go sign up on pod. Alex: I love you. De'Vannon: I'm all like, you need to do better than matchmaker because matchmaking there's other websites out there now. And I haven't seen any of the others, but I'm like, I haven't found one [00:51:00] that is easy to use as pot match. They have everything there. Then, then Alex has like systems there to encourage.You to do things. There's like a rating system systems. We've been making it like the top 10. And then there's your affiliate program where bitches can get paid too. So tell us about these intricacies. Alex: Yeah, I mean, go back to the media kit. That was like really early on that we decided to do that because of the same problem.That's one of your listeners. So everyone listening to sex, drugs and Jesus, right now, you don't care how long it took Devon. And to get me booked or how long it took them, like how long it took to find a picture of like all these things, right? You don't, that doesn't matter. Like the back and forth of that, what matters is the content getting out there?And so in my mind, I was like, Hey, we need to get all this on pod match so people can just make it really simple. So it's like, okay, yeah. I want this guy as a guest, or I want this lady as a guest. Like I want this person to be on my. Cool. Here's their images. Here's their bio. Here's some questions ready to answer.In [00:52:00] case we get stuck. All these things, like the idea was just to have a one-stop shop to make the whole process seamless. You can book straight through the platform. So if you want to basically schedule the interview, you can use our built-in messaging platform. You don't ever have to exchange an email unless you want to.And I, some people would like to, and that's great. That's fine. I actually prefer people to actually make a, build a relationship as well. But if you don't want to, you don't have to do any of that. And yet, so we built this thing in just basically say, this is a one-stop shop for finding your guests or being a guest.That's the idea and everything you need is right here in the platform. And then for me personally, going back to just like the purpose side of things, I love this industry and I want to help creators be able to make some extra money. Cause I get it. Like even if you're spending 50 bucks on. That's that's a lot of money to some people that's like eating for a day for some people like they, they might not have that.So if they're saying I'm going to start this, I want to way they can make that back. So we really did the affiliate program. We have some we're calling pod value initiative, which basically means if you're completing interviews, using our platform, we're going to give you a piece of it. [00:53:00] Like we actually split our revenue in half.So 50% of our revenue we're giving back to creators that are using the platform. And it just kind of, there's a whole mathematical equation. I'm not going to get into, but basically the point is we just want to say, Hey, you know what creator? So the podcast host side of things here is a little cut of what we're making.Just our way of saying thanks and stay in the industry, keep it up. Because end of the day, that 10% of people that make it past their first year, I would love to help make that 11% of people making it. Like that would be a dream for me to just help increase it by 1%. Now that might be a really ambitious goal or not ambitious enough, but right now that's my.And I know if we could put a little bit money in people's pockets, make the whole process more seamless than maybe, maybe just, maybe we'd be able to do that. And that's really, my big focus is to help those creators because ultimately when they share an episode, that's what serves the world. This episode going out is what helps people, not all the administration that went behind it De'Vannon: and keeping in this same spirit, the pie, the pie upon pros community is a big deal.And so, and this is one thing [00:54:00] that, that I, that I really appreciate and got so much out of, especially at the beginning. So as a podcast, And especially during these times that we're like still kind of reeling with this pandemic, the feeling of isolation can be quite poignant and you can feel alone, espe

Alex Oh and Nikolay Borisov are the founders of Ohlay, a culture design studio.   In this episode, Alex and Nikolay talk about:  Making work suck less  Trusting each other, themselves, and the work they're doing   What Ohlay is all about and who they're for   How part of being a leader is really just holding space for others to thrive   AND!   Shauna tries social journaling during the episode

In today's edition of Daily Compliance News: ·      Ex-BOA trader admits to spoofing. (WSJ)   ·      Exxon fined in Alex Oh litigation sanction. (Reuters) ·      UK Coca-Cola boss admits to taking bribes.  (BBC) ·      Former Fresenius GC claims whistleblower retaliation.  (WSJ) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

About AlexAlex holds a Ph.D. in Computer Science and Engineering from UC San Diego, and has spent over a decade building high-performance, robust data management and processing systems. As an early member of a couple fast-growing startups, he's had the opportunity to wear a lot of different hats, serving at various times as an individual contributor, tech lead, manager, and executive. Prior to joining the Duckbill Group, Alex spent a few years as a freelance data engineering consultant, helping his clients build, manage and maintain their data infrastructure. He lives in Los Angeles, CA.Links: Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexras/ Personal page: https://alexras.info Old Consulting website with blog: https://bitsondisk.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: The company 0x4447 builds products to increase standardization and security in AWS organizations. They do this with automated pipelines that use well-structured projects to create secure, easy-to-maintain and fail-tolerant solutions, one of which is their VPN product built on top of the popular OpenVPN project which has no license restrictions; you are only limited by the network card in the instance. To learn more visit: snark.cloud/deployandgoCorey: Today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends at MinIO the high-performance Kubernetes native object store that's built for the multi-cloud, creating a consistent data storage layer for your public cloud instances, your private cloud instances, and even your edge instances, depending upon what the heck you're defining those as, which depends probably on where you work. It's getting that unified is one of the greatest challenges facing developers and architects today. It requires S3 compatibility, enterprise-grade security and resiliency, the speed to run any workload, and the footprint to run anywhere, and that's exactly what MinIO offers. With superb read speeds in excess of 360 gigs and 100 megabyte binary that doesn't eat all the data you've gotten on the system, it's exactly what you've been looking for. Check it out today at min.io/download, and see for yourself. That's min.io/download, and be sure to tell them that I sent you. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm the chief cloud economist at The Duckbill Group, which people are generally aware of. Today, I'm joined by our most recent principal cloud economist, Alex Rasmussen. Alex, thank you for joining me today, it is a pleasure to talk to you, as if we aren't talking to each other constantly, now that you work here.Alex: Thanks, Corey. It's great being here.Corey: So, I followed a more, I'd say traditional path for a cloud economist, but given that I basically had to invent the job myself, the more common path because imagine that you start building a role from scratch and the people you wind up looking for initially look a lot like you. And that is grumpy sysadmin, historically, turned into something, kind of begrudgingly, that looks like an SRE, which I still maintain are the same thing, but it is imperative people not email me about that. Yes, I know, you work at Google. But instead, what I found during my tenure as a sysadmin, is that I was working with certain things an awful lot, like web servers, and other things almost never, like databases and data warehouses. Because if you screw up a web server, we all have a good laugh, the site's down for a couple of minutes, life goes on, you have a shame trophy on your desk if that's your corporate culture, things continue.Mess up the data severely enough, and you don't have a company anymore. So, I was always told to keep my aura away from the expensive spendy things that power a company. You are sort of the first of a cloud economist subtype that doesn't resemble that. Before you worked here, you were effectively an independent consultant working on data engineering. Before that, you had a couple of jobs, but you had gotten a PhD in computer science, which means, first, you are probably one of the people in this world most qualified to pass some crappy job interview of solving a sorting algorithm on a whiteboard, but how did you get here from where you were?Alex: Great question. So, I like to joke that I kind of went to school until somebody told me that I had to stop. And I took that and went and started—or didn't start, but I was an early engineer at a startup and then was an executive at another early-stage one, and did a little bit of everything. And went freelance, did that for a couple of years, and worked with all kinds of different companies—vast majority of those being startups—helping them with data infrastructure problems. I've done a little bit of everything throughout my career.I've been, you know, IC, manager, manager, manager, IT guy, everything in between. I think on the data side of things, it just sort of happened, to be honest with you, it kind of started with the stuff that I did for my dissertation and parlayed that into a job back when the big data wave was starting to kind of truly crest. And I've been working on data infrastructure, basically my entire career. So, it wasn't necessarily something that was intentional. I've just been kind of taking the opportunity that makes the most sense for me it kind of every juncture. And my career path has been a little bit strange, both by academic and industrial standards. But I like where I'm at and I gained something really valuable from each of those experiences. So.Corey: It's been an interesting area of I won't say weakness here, but it's definitely been a bit of a challenge when we look at an AWS environment and even talking about a typical AWS customer without thinking of any of them in particular, I can already tell you a few things are likely to be true. For example, the number one most expensive line item in their bill is going to be EC2, and compute is the thing that powers it. Now, maybe that is they're running a bunch of instances the old-fashioned way. Maybe they're running Kubernetes but that's how it shows up. There's a lot of things that could be, and we look at what rounds that out.Now, the next item down should almost certainly not be data transfer and if so we should have a conversation, but data in one form or another is very often going to be number two. And that can mean a bunch of different things, historically. It could mean, “Oh, you have a whole bunch of stuff in S3. Let's talk about access patterns. Let's talk about lifecycle policies. Let's talk about making sure the really important stuff is backed up somewhere. Maybe you want to spend more on that particular aspect of it.”If it's on EBS volumes, that's interesting and definitely worth looking into and trying to understand the context of what's going on. Periodically we'll see a whole bunch of additional charges that speak to some of that EC2 charge in the form of EMR, AWS's Elastic MapReduce, which charges a per-hour instance charge, but also charges you for the instances that are running under the hood and under the EC2 line item. So, there's a lot of data lifecycle stuff, there's a lot of data ecosystem stories, that historically we've consulted out with experts in that particular space. And that's great, but we were starting to have to drag those people in on more and more engagements as we saw them. And we realized that was really something we had to build out as a core competency for ourselves.And we started out not intending to hire for someone with that specialty, but the more we talked to you, the more it became clear that this was a very real and very growing need that we and our customers have. How closely it is what you're doing now as far as AWS bill analysis and data pattern deep-dive align with what you were doing as a freelance consultant in the space?Alex: A lot more than you might expect. You know, I think that increasingly, what you're seeing now is that a company's core differentiator is its data, right, how much of it they have, what they do with it. And so, you know, to your point, I think when you look at any company's cloud spend, it's going to be pretty heavy on the data side in terms of, like, where have you put it? What are you doing to process it? Where is it going once it's been processed? And then how is that—Corey: And data transfer is a very important first word in that two-word sequence.Alex: Oh, sure is. And so I think that, like, in a lot of ways, the way that a customer's cloud architecture looks and the way that their bill looks kind of as a consequence of that is kind of a reification in a way of the way that the data flows from one place to another and what's done with it at each step along the way. I think what complicates this is that companies that have been around for a little while have lived through this kind of very amorphous, kind of, polyglot way that we're approaching data. You know, back when I was first getting started in the big data days, it was MapReduce, MapReduce, MapReduce, right? And we quickly [crosstalk 00:07:29]—Corey: Oh, yes. The MapReduce white paper out of Google, a beautiful April Fool's Day prank that the folks at Yahoo fell for hook, line, and sinker. They wrote Hadoop, and now we're all stuck with that pattern. Great gag, they really should have clarified they were kidding. Here we are.Alex: Exactly. So—Corey: I mostly kid.Alex: No, for sure. But I think especially when it comes to data, we tend to over-index on what the large companies do and then quickly realize that we've made a mistake and correct backwards, right? So, there was this big push toward MapReduce for everything until people realize that it was just a pain in the neck to operate and to build. And so then we moved into Spark, so kind of up-leveled a little bit. And then there was this kind of explosion of NoSQL and NewSQL databases that hit the market.And MongoDB inexplicably won that war and now we're kind of in this world where everything is cloud data warehouse, right? And now we're trying to wrestle with, like, is it actually a good idea to put everything in one warehouse and have SQL be the lingua franca on top of it? But it's all changing so rapidly. And when you come into a customer that's been around for 10 or 15 years, and has, you know, been in the cloud for a substantial—Corey: Yeah, one of those ancient customers. That is—Alex: I know, right?Corey: —basically old enough to almost get a driver's license? Oh, yeah.Alex: Right. It's one of those things where it's like, “Ah, yes, in startup years, you're, like, a hundred years old,” right? But still, you know, I think you see this, kind of—I wouldn't call it a graveyard of failed experiments, right, but it's a collection of, like, “Well, we tried this, and it kind of worked and we're keeping it around because the cost of moving this stuff around—the kind of data gravity, so to speak—is high enough that we're not going to bother transitioning it over.” But then you get into this situation where you have to bend over backwards to integrate anything with anything else. And we're still kind of in the early days of fixing that.Corey: And the AWS bill pattern that we see all the time across the board of those experiments were not successful and do not need to exist, but there's no context into that. The person that set them up left five years ago, the jobs are still running on time. What's happening with them? Well, we could stop them and see who screams, but very often, that's not the right answer either.Alex: And I think there's also something to note there, too, which is like, getting rid of data is very scary, right? I mean, if you resize a Kubernetes cluster from 15 nodes to 10, nobody's going to look at you sideways. But if you go, “Hey, we're just going to drop these tables.” The immediate reaction that you get, particularly from your data science team more often than not is, “Oh, God, what if we need that?” And so the conversation never really happens, and that causes this kind of snowball of data debt that persists in some cases for many, many years.Corey: Yeah, in some cases, what I found has been successful on those big unknown questions is don't delete the data, but restrict access to it for a few weeks and see what happens. Look into it a bit and make sure that it's not like, “Oh, cool. We just did for a month, and now we don't need that data. Let's get rid of it.” And then another month goes by it's like, “So, time to report quarterly earnings. Where's the data?”Oh, dear, that's not going to go well, for anyone. And understanding what's happening, the idea of cloning a petabyte of data so you can run an experiment on it. And okay, turns out the experiment wasn't needed. Do we still need to keep all of that?Alex: Yeah.Corey: The underlying platform advancements have been helpful toward this as well, a petabyte of data now in Glacier Deep Archive cost the princely sum of a thousand bucks a month, which is pretty close to the idea of why would I ever delete data ever again? I can get it back within a day if I need it, so let's just put it there instead.Alex: Right. You know, funny story. When I was in graduate school, we were dealing with, you know, 100 terabyte datasets on the regular that we had to generate every time because we only had 200 terabytes of raw storage. [laugh]. And this was before cloud was yet mature enough that we could get the kind of performance numbers that we wanted off of it.And we would end up having to delete the input data to make room for the output data. [laugh]. And thankfully, we don't need to do that anymore. But there are a lot of, kind of, anti-patterns that arise from that too, right? If data is easy to keep around forever, it stays around forever.And if it's easy to, let's say, run a SQL command against your Snowflake instance that scans 20 terabytes of data, you're just going to do it, and the exposure of that to you is so minimal that you can end up causing a whole bunch of problems for yourself by the fact that you don't have to deal with stuff at that low-level of abstraction anymore.Corey: It's always fun watching how this stuff manifests—because I'm dipping a toe into it from time to time—the easy, naive answer that we could give every customer but we don't is, “Huh. So, you have a whole bunch of EMR stuff? Well, you know, if you migrate that into something else, you'll save a whole bunch of money on that.” With no regard for the 500 jobs that run against that EMR cluster on a consistent basis that form is a key part of business process. “Yeah, if you could just do the entire flow of how data is operated with throughout your entire business that would be swell because you can save tens of thousands of dollars a month on that.” Yeah, how about we don't suggest things that are just absolute buffoonery.Alex: Well, and it's like, you know, you hit on a good point. Like, one of my least favorite words in the English language is the word ‘just.' And you know, I spent a few years as a freelance data consultant, and you know, a lot of what I would hear sometimes from customers is, “Well, why don't we ‘just' deprecate X?”Corey: “Why don't we just—” “I'm going to stop you there because there is no ‘just.'”Alex: Exactly.Corey: There's always context that we cannot have as outsiders.Alex: Precisely. Precisely. And digging into that really is—it's the fun part of the job, but it's also the hard part of the job.Corey: Before we created The Duckbill Group, which was really when I took Mike Julian on as business partner and CEO and formed the entity, I had something in common with you; I was freelancing for a couple of years beforehand. Now, I know why I wound up deciding, all right, we're going to turn this into a company, but what was it that I guess made you decide to, you know, freelancing is all well and good, but it's time to get something that looks a lot more like a quote-unquote, “Traditional job.”Alex: So, I think, on one level, I went freelance because I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do next. And I knew what I was good at. I knew what I had a lot of experience at, and I thought, “Well, I can just go out and kind of find a bunch of people that are willing to hire me to do what I'm good at doing, and then maybe eventually I'll find one of them that I like enough that I'll go and work for them. Or maybe I'll come up with some kind of a business model that I can repeat enough times that I don't have to worry that I wake up tomorrow and all of my clients are gone and then I have to go live in a van down by the river.”And I think when I heard about the opening at The Duckbill Group, I had been thinking for a little while about well, this has been going fine for a long time, but effectively what I've been doing is I've been you know, a staff-level data engineer for hire. And do I want to do something more than that, you know? Do I want to do something more comp—perhaps more sophisticated or more complex than that? And I rapidly came to the conclusion that in order to do that, I would have to have sales and marketing, and I would have to, you know, spend a lot of my time bringing in business. And that's just not something that I have really any experience in or I'm any good at.And, you know, I also recognize that, you know, I'm a relatively small fish in a relatively large pond, and if I wanted to get the kind of like, large scale people, the like the big, you know, Fortune 1000 company kind of customers, they may not pay attention to somebody like me. And so I think that ultimately, what I saw with The Duckbill Group was, number one, a group of people that were strongly aligned to the way that I wanted to keep doing this sort of work, right? Cultural alignment was really strong, good people, but also, you know, you folks have a thing that you figured out, and that puts you 10 to 15 steps ahead of where I was. And I was kind of staring down the barrel that, I'm like, am I going to have to take six months not doing client work so that I can figure out how to make this business sustain? And, you know, I think that ultimately, like, I just looked at it, and I said, this just makes sense to me, like, as a next step. And so here we all are.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of “Hello, World” demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking, databases, observability, management, and security. And—let me be clear here—it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself, all while gaining the networking, load balancing, and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build. With Always Free, you can do things like run small-scale applications or do proof-of-concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free? This is actually free, no asterisk. Start now. Visit snark.cloud/oci-free that's snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: It's always fun seeing how people perceive what we've done from the outside. Like, “Oh, yeah, you just stumbled right onto the thing that works, and you've just been going, like, gangbusters ever since.” Then you come aboard, it's like, “Here, look at this pile of things that didn't pan out over here.” And it's, you get to see how the sausage is made in a way that we talk about from time to time externally, but surprisingly, most of our marketing efforts aren't really focused on, “And here's this other time we screwed up as well.” And we're honest about it, but it's not sort of the thing that we promote as the core message of what we do and who we are.A question I like to ask people during job interviews, and I definitely asked you this, and I'll ask you now, which is going to probably throw some folks for a loop because who talks to their current employees like this? But what's next for you? When it comes time for you to leave the Duckbill Group, what do you want to do after this job?Alex: That's a great question. So, I mean, as we've mentioned before, you know, my career trajectory has been very weird and circuitous. And, you know, I would be lying to you if I said that I had absolute certainty about what the rest of that looks like. I've learned a few things about myself in the course of my career, such as it is. In my kind of warm, gooey center, I build stuff. Like, that is what gives me joy, it is what makes me excited to wake up in the morning.I love looking at big, complicated things, breaking them down into pieces, and figuring out how to make the pieces work in a way that makes sense. And, you know, I've spent a long time in the data ecosystem. I don't know, necessarily, if that's something that I'm going to do forever. I'm not necessarily pigeonholing myself into that part of the space just yet, but as long as I get to kind of wake up in the morning, and say, “I'm going to go and build things and it's not going to actively make the world any worse,” I'm happy with that. And so that's really—you know, might go back to freelancing, might go and join another group, another company, big small, who knows. I'm kind of leaving that up to the winds of destiny, so to speak.Corey: One thing that I have found incredi—sorry. Let me just address that first. Like that—Alex: Sure.Corey: —is the right way to think about it. My belief has always been that you don't necessarily have, like, the ten-year plan, or the five-year plan or whatever it is because that's where you're going to go so much as it gives you direction and forces you to keep moving so you don't wind up sitting in the same place for five years with one year of experience repeated five times. It helps you remember the bigger picture. Because I've always despised this fiction that we see in job interviews where average tenure in our industry is 18 to 36 months, give or take, but somehow during the interviews, we all talk like this is now your forever job, and after 25 years, you'll retire. And yeah, let's be a little more realistic than that.My question is always what is next and how can we align in a way that helps you get to what's coming? That's the purpose behind the question, and that's—the only way to make that not just a drippingly insincere question is to mean it and to continue to focus on it from time to time of, great. What are you learning what's next? Now, at the time of this recording, you've been here, I believe three weeks if I'm not mistaken?Alex: I've—this is week two for me at time of recording.Corey: Excellent. Yes, my grasp of time is sort of hazy at the best of times. I have a—I do a lot of things.Alex: For sure.Corey: But yeah, it has been an eye-opening experience for me, not because, “Oh, wow, we have an employee.” Yeah, we've done that a few times before. But rather because of your background, you are asking different questions than we typically get during onboarding. I had a blog post go out recently—or will be by the time this airs—about a question that you asked about, “Wow, onboarding into our internal account structure for AWS is way more polished than I've ever seen it before. Is that something you built in-house? What is that?”And great. Oh, terrific, I'd forgotten that this is kind of a novel thing. No. What we're using is AWS's SSO offering, which is such a well-built, polished product that I can only assume that it's under NDA because Amazonians don't talk about it ever. But it's great.It has a couple of annoyances, but beyond that, it's something that I'm a big fan of, but I'd forgotten how transformative that is, compared to the usual approach of all right, here's your username, here's a password you're going to have to change, here are your IAM credentials to store on disk forever. It's the ability to look at what we're doing through the eyes of someone who is clearly deep into the technical weeds, but not as exposed to all of the minutiae of the 300-some-odd AWS services is really a refreshing thing for all of us, just because it helps us realize what it's like to see some of this stuff for the first time, as well as gives me content ideas because if it's new to you, I promise you are not the only person who's seeing it that way. And if you don't really understand something well enough to explain it, I would argue you don't really understand the thing, so it forces me to get more awareness around exactly how different facets work. It's been an absolutely fantastic experience so far, from my perspective.Alex: Thank you. Right back at you. I mean, spending so many years working with startups, my kind of level of expected sophistication is, “I'm going to write your password on the back of a napkin. I have fifteen other things to do. Go figure it out.” And so you know, it's always nice to see—particularly players like AWS that are such 800-pound gorillas—going in and trying to uplevel that experience in a way that feels like—because I mean, like, look, AWS could keep us with the, “Here's a CSV with your username and password. Good luck, have fun.” And you know, they would still make—Corey: And they're going to have to because so much automation is built around that—Alex: Oh yeah—Corey: In so many places.Alex: —so much.Corey: It's always net-additive, they never turn anything off, which is increasingly an operational burden.Alex: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But yeah, it's nice to see them up-level this in a way that feels like they're paying attention to their customers' pain. And that's always nice to see.Corey: So, we met a few years ago—in the before times—at a mixer that we wound up throwing—slash meetup. It was in Southern California for some AWS event or another. You've been aware of who we are and what we do for a while now, so I'm very curious to know—and the joy of having these conversations is that I don't actually know what the answer is going to be, so this may never see the light of day if it goes to weird—Alex: [laugh].Corey: —in the wrong direction, but—no I'm kidding. What has been, I guess, the biggest points of dissonance or surprises based upon your perception of who we are and what we do externally, versus joining and seeing how the sausage is made?Alex: You know, I think the first thing is—um, well, how to put this. I think that a lot of what I was expecting, given how much work you all do and how big—well, ‘you all;' we do—and how big the list of clients is and how it gets bigger every day, I was expecting this to be, like, this very hyper put together, like, every little detail has been figured out kind of engagement where I would have to figure out how you all do this. And coming in and realizing that a lot of it is just having a lot of in-depth knowledge born from experience of a bunch of stuff inside of this ecosystem, and then the rest of it is kind of free jazz, is kind of encouraging. Because as someone that was you know, as a freelancer, right, who do you see, right? You see people who have big public presences or people who are giant firms, right?On the GCP side, SADA Systems is a great example. They're another local company for me here in Los Angeles, and—Corey: Oh, yes. [unintelligible 00:24:48] Miles has been a recurring guest on the show.Alex: Yeah. And he's great. And, like, they have this enormous company that's got, like, all these different specializations and they're basically kind of like the middleman for GCP on a lot of things. And, like, you see that, and then you kind of see the individual people that are like, “Yeah, you know, I'm not really going to tell you that I only have two clients and that if both of them go away, I'm screwed, but, like, I only have two clients, and if both of them go away, I'm screwed.” And so, you know, I think honestly seeing that, like, what you've built so far and what I hope to help you continue to build is, you know, you've got just enough structure around the thing so that it makes sense, and the rest of it, you're kind of admitting that no plan ever survives contact with the client, right, and that everybody's going to be different than that everybody's problems are going to be different.And that you can't just go in and say, “Here's a dashboard, here's a calculator, have fun, give me my money,” right? Because that feels like—in optimization spaces of any kind, be that cloud, or data or whatever, there's this, kind of, push toward, how do I automate myself out of a job, and the realization that you can't for something like this, and that ultimately, like, you're just going to have to go with what you know, is something that I kind of had a suspicion was the case, but this really made it clear to me that, like, oh, this is actually a reasonable way of going about this.Corey: We thought otherwise at one point. We thought that this was something could be easily addressed their software. We launched our DuckTools SaaS platform in beta and two months later, did the—our incredible journey has come to an end, and took it off of a public offering. Because it doesn't lend itself to solving these problems in software in any reasonable way. I am ever more convinced over time that the idea of being able to solve cloud cost optimization with software at VC-scale is a red herring.And yeah, it just isn't going to work because it's one size fits some. Our customers are, by definition, exceptional in many respects, and understanding the context behind why things are the way that they are mean that we can only go so far with process because then it becomes a let's have a conversation and let's be human. Otherwise, we try to overly codify the process, and congratulations, we just now look like really crappy software, but expensive because it's all people doing it. It doesn't work that way. We have tools internally that help smooth over a lot of those edges, but by and large, people who are capable of performing at especially at the principal level for a cloud economics role, inherently are going to find themselves stifled by too much process because they need to have the freedom to dig into the areas that are relevant to the customer.It's why we can't recraft all of our statements of work in ways that tend to shy away from explicitly defined deliverables. Because we deliver an outcome, but it's going to depend entirely, in most cases, up on what we discover along the way. Maybe a full-on report isn't the best way of presenting the data in the way that we see it. Maybe it's a small proof of concept script or something like that. Maybe it's, I don't know, an interpretive dance in front of the company's board.Alex: [laugh]. Right.Corey: I'm open to exploring opportunities. But it comes down to what is right for the customer. There's a reason we only ever charge a fixed fee for these things, and it's because at that point, great, we're giving you the advice that we'd implement ourselves. We have no partnerships with any vendor in the space just to avoid bias or the perception of same. It's important that we are the authoritative source around these things.Honestly, the thing that surprised me the most about all this is how true to that vision we've stayed as we've as we flushed out what works, what doesn't. And we can distantly fail to go out of business every month. I am ecstatic about that. I expected this to wind up cratering into a mountain four months after I went freelance. Not yet.Alex: Well, I mean, I think there's another aspect of this too, right? Because I've spent a lot of my career working inside of venture capital-backed companies. And there's a lot of positive things to be said about having ready access to that kind of cash, but it does something to your business the second you take it. And I've been in a couple of situations where, like, once you actually have that big bucket of money, the incentive is grow, right? Hire more people get more customers, go, go, go, go, go.And sometimes what you'll find is that you'll spend the time and the money on an initiative and it's clearly not working. And you just kind of have to keep doubling down because now you've got customers that are using this thing and now you have to maintain it, and before you know it, you've got this albatross hanging around your neck. And like one of the things that I really respect about the way that Duckbill Group is is handling this by not taking outside cash is, like, it frees you up to make these kinds of bets, and then two months later say, “Well, that didn't work,” and try something else. And you know, that's very difficult to do once you have to go and convince someone with, you know, money flowing out of their ears, that that's the right thing to do.Corey: We have to be intentional about what we're doing. One of the benefits of bringing you aboard is that one, it does improve our capacity for handling more engagements at the same time, but it also improves the quality of the engagements that we are delivering. Instead of basically doing a round-robin assignment policy we can—Alex: Right.Corey: —we consult with each other; we talk about specific areas in which we have specific expertise. You get dragged into a lot of data portions of existing engagements, and the rest of us get pulled into other areas in which you might not be as strong. For example, “What are all of these ridiculous services? I can't make heads or tails have the ridiculous naming side of it.” Surprise, that's not a you problem.It comes down to being able to work collaboratively and let each other shine in a way that doesn't mean we load people up with work. We're very strict about having a 40-hour or less work week, just because we're not rushing for an exit. We want to enjoy our time working, we want to enjoy what we're doing, and then we want to go home and don't think about work until it's time to come back and think about these things. Like, it's a lifestyle company, but that lifestyle doesn't need to be run, run, run, run, run all the time, and it doesn't need to be something that people barely tolerate.Alex: Yeah. And I think that, you know, especially coming from being an army of one in a lot of engagements, it is really refreshing to be able to—see because, you know, I'm fortunate enough, I have friends in the industry that I can go and say like, “I have no idea how to make heads or tails of X.” And you know, I can get help that way, but ultimately, like, the only other outlet that I have here is the customer and they're not bringing me in if they have those answers readily to hand. And so being able to bounce stuff off of other people inside of an organization like this has been really refreshing.Corey: One of the things I've appreciated about your tenure here so far is the questions that you ask are pitched at the perfect level, by which I mean, it is never something you could answer with a three-second visit to Google, but it's also not something that you've spent three days spinning your wheels on trying to understand. You do a bit of digging; it's a little unclear, especially since there are multiple paths to go down, and then you flag it for clarification. And there's really so much to be said for that. Really, when we're looking for markers of seniority in the interview process, it's admitting you don't know something, but then also talking about how you would go about getting the answer. And it's—because no one has all this stuff in their head. I spend a disturbing amount of time looking at search engines and trying to reformulate queries and to get answers that make sense.I don't have the entirety of AWS shoved into my head. Yet. I'm sure there's something at re:Invent that's going to be scary and horrifying that will claim to do it and basically have a poor user interface, but all right. When that comes, we'll reevaluate then because this industry is always changing.Alex: For sure. For sure. And I think it's, it's worth pointing out that, like, one of the things that having done this for a long time gives you is this kind of scaffolding in your head that you can hang things over. We're like, you don't need to have every single AWS service memorized, but if you've got that scaffold in your head going, “Oh, like, this thing sounds like it hangs over this part of the mental scaffold, and I've seen other things that do that, so I wonder if it does this and this and this,” right? And that's a lot of it, honestly.Because especially, like, when I was solely in the data space, there's a new data wareho—or a new, like, data catalog system coming out every other week. You know, there are a thousand different things that claim to do MLOps, right? And whenever, like, someone comes to me and says, “Do you have experience with such and such?” And the answer was usually, “Well if you hum a few bars, I can fake it.” And, you know, that tends to help a great deal.Corey: Yeah. “No, but I'll find out and get back to you,” the right answer. Making it up and being wrong is the best way to get rejected from an environment. That's not just consulting; that's employment, too. If 95% of the time, you give the right answer, but that one time and 20 you're going to just make it up, well, I have to validate the other 19 because I never know when someone's faking it or not. There's that level of earned trust that's important.Alex: Well, yeah. And you're being brought in to be the expert in the room. That doesn't necessarily mean that you are the all-seeing, all-knowing oracle of knowledge but, like, if you say a thing, people are just going to believe you. And so, you know, it's beholden on you—Corey: If not, we have a different problem.Alex: Well, yeah, exactly. Hopefully, right? But yeah, I mean, it's beholden on you to be honest with your customer at a certain point, I think.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time out of your day to got with me about this. And I would love to have you back on in a couple of months once you're fully up to speed and spinning at the proper RPMs and see what's happened then. I—Alex: Thank you. I'd—Corey: —really appreciate—Alex: —love to.Corey: —your time where's the best place for people to learn more about you if they haven't heard your name before?Alex: Well, let's see. I am @alexras on Twitter, A-L-E-X-R-A-S. My personal website is alexras.info.I've done some writing on data stuff, including a pretty big collection of blog posts on the data side of the AWS ecosystem that are still on my consulting page, bitsondisk.com. Other than that—I mean, yeah, Twitter is probably the best place to find me, so if you want to talk more about any weird, nerd data stuff, then please feel free to reach out there.Corey: And links to that will, of course, be in the [show notes 00:35:57]. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.Alex: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.Corey: Alex Rasmussen, principal cloud economist here at The Duckbill Group. I am Corey Quinn, cloud economist to the stars, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, insulting comment that you then submit to three other podcast platforms just to make sure you have a backup copy of that particular piece of data.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

This edition of the CommonsCast was produced remotely during the Commodores Care period, and features Dean Gresalfi welcoming everyone back from the break with words of encouragement for the upcoming semester.  Cheryl details events happening this week in the Commons Calendar, and Richard has a great socially distanced Zoom interview with Alex Oh, a first year student from Columbia, Maryland who is studying Electrical Engineering and Computer Science.

Join us as we give updates on the hunt for Brian Laundrie, we talk about the Chad Daybell's hearing from today as well as New stuff on Murdaugh case. ..............Pretty Lies & Alibis is a true crime podcast located in Greenville, South Carolina. Pretty Lies covers a variety of cases across the United States. Join Gigi & Froot Loop as they seek truth and travel the long road to justice. Make sure to follow Pretty Lies & Alibis on social media for more videos, details & information on the cases Gigi & Froot Loop are currently covering... -Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PrettyLiesAndAlibis-Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/prettyliesandalibis/..............Special thanks to our sponsor, Too Cool T-Shirt Quilts, for their incredible support of our podcast! Click here to check out their products: https://www.toocooltshirtquilts.com/prettyliesandalibi

Whether you are a sommelier or have just watched that one episode of Parks & Rec too many times, you'll find a new winery to love in Aluel. Partners in both life and business, Alex Oh and Samuel Hilbert started this wine tasting room together and have seen it through many highs and lows, including COVID. Listen this week to hear how they met, what they've learned along the way, and why wine is so important to their story.In this episode, you'll hear:How Alex and Samuel used foreign cuisine and languages to make up for a lack of traveling during the pandemic.The role wine has played in their relationship from the very first date.Why communication has been a key focus of their personal and business relationships.Their journey from working successful jobs individually to also opening a business together. The ways they balance each other out, from time management to the level of structure in their lives and work.Why celebrating the small milestones is just as important as achieving the big dream.How Alex and Samuel are working to make wine approachable and fun for everyone who comes through the door.Tips for building a partnership or team that benefits everyone involved.Their COVID experience and how it encouraged a level of fearlessness that empowers positive change.Which Aluel wines you should try and how you can order a few bottles for yourself.Show Notes: Aleul CellarsTasting RoomInstagram

If you look on Twitter or do a quick Google search, you'll find a ton of chatter about the foolproof DTC playbook. Everyone has ideas about the surefire ways that young DTC brands should be setting themselves up for success. Alex Kubo is here to tell you that those playbooks aren't as written in stone as you might think. Alex is the VP of ecommerce and digital marketing at Burrow, a DTC furniture brand, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he explained how and why the Burrow team threw out the playbook when certain aspects of it fell flat. For example, Alex talks about the lessons they learned about the signals that pricing sends, and why it's critical to put the right price on your product to attract the right customer even if that means pricing higher than the playbook says. Alex also dives into what it means to actually be customer centric and how Burrow stays in constant communication with customers. Plus, we discuss why marketing toward buying events or using a spray and pray strategy across a dozen channels is about as useful as setting your money on fire. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Sending The Right Signals: How you price your product or service is one of the most significant ways you signal to customers who you are as a brand and what value you bring. If you price too low, you risk being lumped in with brands that don't necessarily fit with the type of products or value you bring to the table.More Than Words: Saying you are customer-centric and actually being customer-centric are two very different things. To be truly customer-centric requires regularly talking to and learning from your customers and then building experiences and products based on those conversations. You can't just assume you know what customers want, you have to do the work to find out.A Horse of a Different Color: There are best practices and guidelines that many companies follow to get themselves off the ground. Sometimes those playbooks work, but in other cases, you have to toss out what everyone says is the right strategy and go in a new direction. Whether that's in your social strategy, your pricing, or how you're getting feedback from customers, don't be afraid to buck tradition and do something different.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome to Up Next In Commerce. I'm your host Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today on the show, we have Alex Kubo joining us, who currently serves as the VP of E-Commerce and Digital Marketing at Burrow. Alex, welcome.Alex:Thanks, Stephanie. Excited to be here.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm very excited to have you here. It was cool reading a bit about Burrow's background and starting at Y Combinator, and I was thinking it might be fun to start there, back in 2016. What did it look like starting the company, and then we can get into today?Alex:Totally. So, I was fortunate that I actually met the two co-founders of Burrow while were on the same business school program in Philadelphia. And back in the fall of 2015, actually, Kabeer and Stephen, the two co-founders and my classmates were both furnishing their apartments as they moved into Philadelphia for the program, and they had two very distinct but related experiences. Kabeer purchased a sofa from West Elm in Philly, and it wasn't going to arrive for about 12 to 16 weeks, which I think, nowadays, people are pretty used to seeing those timelines, but Originally, it was like, "Whoa, this is not Amazon." And so, Kabeer actually used the cart, the dolly in his apartment building and rolled it to West Elm, and picked up a floor model and brought it home, because the lead time was going to be longer than his first semester, so obviously, that was not going to be a great experience.Alex:Stephen went the classic IKEA route, right, where you don't come in to grad school with a ton of money and need to furnish your space quickly. And so he did that, and then ultimately, it's a waste down the road, right? IKEA furniture, you can't move because of the quality of the materials and that sort of thing.Stephanie:[crosstalk]. Yeah.Alex:Yeah. So, the question ultimately became, why can't you have that higher end quality that you might find at a West Elm, or Pottery Barn, or Crate and Barrel, but the convenience, the modern day conveniences that Amazon has made the default expectation of consumers, so fast, and free shipping, and easy delivery process, and be able to modularize that design so that you can set it up and not have to deal with like the IKEA hex key or any of these really cumbersome assembly processes? And so, that concept was born. And out of that came a series of product innovation that ultimately, Stephen and Kabeer got into Y Combinator with just a pitch deck and no product and used that accelerator to develop the product, to prototype the product, and ship it.Alex:A funny little anecdote is that from the time they incorporated the company to the time they shipped their first product was shorter than the period of time that West Elm quoted Kabeer to ship his first couch.Stephanie:Oh, wow. That's great.Alex:Yeah.Stephanie:And what were you doing when they were going through Y Combinator?Alex:I was actually working on my own concept in the health and fitness space and ended up calling time on it right towards the end of the summer because of a number of challenges that I was having on my end, and joined up with Stephen and Kabeer to help build out the demand side of the business. And I had a relatively intimate knowledge of the business and where they were at because we were in all the same classes working on our own businesses. And I had helped them tangentially with sourcing components during our first year of the program, because I have a background in mechanical engineering and they didn't have any background in physical hardware. And so, there was already the groundwork for relationship. And then I was trying to move my own discipline into more of a consumer facing and ground level marketing and product marketing role, so it actually made a lot of sense.Alex:So, we set it up as a brief relationship to make sure that the working relationship was there, which it turned out very quickly, it was. So, I have been tasked or had been tasked with basically just building demand and ran with it since.Stephanie:So, since then, what does the world look like now compared to when you started and you were building up demand? I mean, I'm sure you guys were trying out Facebook and all the traditional platforms that everyone's like, "Every brand should be on Instagram and Facebook, and if you're not here, where are you?" What did it look like then and now?Alex:So, now it's a much more disciplined and much more properly positioned business than it was in the beginning. Two critical mistakes that were good healthy mistakes to make in the early days were, number one, brand positioning and product positioning. We had this idea in our head that... and sort of the classic Warby Parker pricing story of like, they wanted to price it $45, but their advisors and professors advised them not to do that because it would signal the wrong value to the customer. We had a similar experience where, for some reason in our heads, we had to price our couch under $1,000. And we made that decision because we wanted to be hyper competitive on price and make it the default, obvious solution.Alex:The problem that we failed to acknowledge is that consumers nowadays have very limited time to understand the differences and nuances between products. They're not stupid, they're not lazy, but they do have very limited time. And so, you have to be very clear and explicit with them, and part of that is signaling. And one of the most powerful parts of marketing that I think is most often overlooked is a focus on pricing and what that does from a positioning standpoint.Alex:When a lot of shoppers were seeing our product under $1,000 and the fact that it shipped in boxes, which we were very forward with, because we focus so much on the attributes of the product and less on the experience around it, which is another step in our evolution, that people immediately equated those two things, low price and ships in boxes, with a more expensive version of IKEA. So, then it was us talking to IKEA shoppers, and you're not going to convince an IKEA shopper to spend another 300, $400 on a sofa, right? What you need to do is talk to the West Elm shopper, the Pottery Barn shopper, the Crate and Barrel shopper.Alex:So, we actually, for a number reasons, increased prices in late 2017, about half a year after we launched.Stephanie:How much did you increase them by?Alex:Originally, the sofa was priced at 950. By the way, much different cogs, profile as well, at that point. We increased the price to 1,095 to start. So, it was a pretty meaningful difference on a percentage basis, and especially when you talk about margins.Alex:Interestingly enough, everything you learned in microeconomics about the relationship with the supply and demand curves went out the window, because we increased the price and demand shot through the roof.Stephanie:Wow. Did you get it in front of new people? What else were you doing to get it-Alex:I mean, we were doing a lot of the same things in terms of building full funnel architecture on paid social and paid search and that sort of thing, and again, applying a lot of those early D2C playbook type approaches, which ultimately turned out to not be the best approach for us. But nothing changed substantially from a marketing perspective. We were still reaching a lot of the same people, it's just that we were now signaling to those people that we belonged in the comparison set with a higher quality piece of furniture. That helps also, because a lot of our value props, it's much easier to convince somebody who has shopped at one of these higher end brands and had to wait super long or had to go to a showroom and deal with a frustrating shopping experience with this overbearing sales associate, pay for shipping, and ultimately, have to be home to get a piece of furniture delivered, and either take a day off from work. Again, much different world back then than it was today.Alex:But it's much easier to talk to those kinds of people who've experienced those pain points and tell them, "I'm going to take all of that pain away," than it is to talk to somebody who's never experienced those pain points and doesn't need the higher quality piece of furniture, again, the IKEA shopper, and talk to them about all these future pain points that they've never experienced but that we can help them avoid. That's maybe one of the biggest lessons learned, is that people do not think much about the future. They're often very, very focused on the present. And so, as much as you want to talk about why you should go to the doctor every year, why should you should go to the dentist every six months, it's like, people are not going to react until they have a problem.Alex:So, we've experimented a bunch with what is the leading value prop. So, we talked to consumers, and one of the ones that we talked about very early was this concept of modularity and how, when you move into your next apartment, you can just purchase another seat instead of buying a whole new sofa to accommodate the new space, or rearrange the existing configuration that you have to fit the new space requirements. Problem is, people are not thinking about that. They don't really care. They can't think that far in advance of two to three to four years down the road when moving into the next apartment. And so, we've deprioritized that in terms of communication and lead with other things that are more immediate, like fast and free shipping.Stephanie:Yeah. Got it. So, you're mentioning earlier that the D2C playbook didn't work for you guys, where now, even these days, you can search that and you'll find a bunch of the playbooks and people are still saying like, "This is what you need to do to be successful." What were some other things that you did back then that you completely reversed and you were like, "This doesn't work for us"?Alex:Yeah. So, I think, first, was not acknowledging how complex and lengthy the shopping journey is for a piece of furniture online. Obviously, it's a big investment, it's also mutually exclusive with something else, your home, right? Let alone the high price, you're not going to just buy another couch when you have an existing one in your home, right? You need to think about getting that out or you have to do it right at the right moment with a moving event or something like that.Alex:So, the first thing that we had to realize is that what we can't do is architect our funnel around existing attribution technology or just rely on optimizing towards purchase events in digital channels. What we had to do is to look upstream and find correlations and causation between different upstream, midstream, and bottom stream events to really architect a healthy full funnel. And so, most of our campaigns are not architected towards purchase events, they're architected towards or optimized towards something more upstream.Stephanie:[crosstalk] for a couple examples.Alex:Yeah. I guess one interesting one that we've learned over time is there's a pretty clear correlation between add to cart and purchase, and the cart abandonment rate is relatively steady. We do things over time, obviously, to improve that, but it's not something that fluctuates wildly over time. And so, one of the things we can do is just optimize towards an add to cart versus a purchase.Alex:The other benefit of that is it often can happen in the first session. So, when you see a lot of the privacy restrictions right now and a lot of the issues with cookies going away and that sort of thing, it helps us. We've actually always been architected to bear that burden a little bit better than some of our other D2C peers.Alex:And then the other thing, besides the purchase journey, was also that we were just doing way too many things at once. We had, and we still have today, a very lean team. The difference between now and then is that back then, we thought the best approach was to spray as wide as we possibly could and activate 10 to 15 channels with me managing all of them, by the way, and not doing a good job.Stephanie:It sounds very chaotic and not fun.Alex:Yeah. Not at all, not at all. And only until we really peeled back and just focused on a handful of things and did them really, really well, that's when we actually started churning results, but more importantly, honestly, that's when we started actually learning what was working. Because previously, we were just spending a lot of money, we were generating sales, but we didn't really have a clear idea of where they were coming from, again, because the purchase journey was so complex, right? It wasn't a problem that we could solve by just putting an attribution layer in somewhere. We had to really hyper focus on one or two things and do them really, really well.Alex:The concept of growth in the past has generally been focused on the top line. And what that means, often, for a lot of companies, is to just go into as many different channels and try to tap into as many different demographics as you possibly can and then find out what's working and what's not working. I think the issue is that the broader investment community has wisened up to that, right, and they're holding us more accountable on a unit economics and customer economics level, versus just month over month top line growth, which in reality, it's just a vanity metric, right?Alex:So, it is more favorable to take a more disciplined approach, albeit potentially slower top line growth, to really uncover those median sites that you can actually build a solid foundation on and grow a real, scalable, profitable company on versus just something that's just, scaling wildly at the top one but in reality it's just lighting money on fire.Stephanie:So, for a higher priced product like Burrow and a longer buying cycle, what platforms would you advise other brands to look at and optimize for and which ones would you pull back from?Alex:Yeah. So, I think if you acknowledge that it is, there are a lot of things that people have to learn about the product, a lot of things that people have to get comfortable with and confident in the purchase. You think that a lot of these shorter form mediums, like paid social, paid search, right? It's just a quick second and a half interaction with an ad, they're not going to be as effective for a product like ours, and that's true. What we have indexed up on are things that are more storytelling mediums. So, the earliest insight into this was we partnered with a small podcast in late 2017, and it's sort of one of those micro ones, it's not on a network, and just talks about fantasy football. And we just got introduced to the gentleman that runs it, and did a small test, and the results were incredible.Alex:Part of what we've learned over time from that point, rapidly scaled the podcast program for us is that it's highly dependent on the host, and the reason that it's highly dependent on a host is because the efficacy of that channel comes from the quality of the storytelling. And that is really what benefits our brand, is that if we go and we send a podcast host a product and they have the same amazing experience that our customers have, they can talk about it in a much more authentic way, but also, a much more individual way. We've actually matured to not providing very detailed scripts to a lot of our podcasts hosts and just telling them to talk about what has been most exciting for you, and that really brings out the energy in the advocacy for the brand from the host. So, I'd say it's really about focusing on storytelling mediums. So, I lumped other video, long form video into that as well. A little bit less of authenticity, but also helps communicate a lot of these little value props that add up to the major value proposition.Stephanie:So, the other thing that comes to mind is branded content. I mean, I'm thinking about something like Formula One where now the results are out, everyone knows it worked really well for them. It was very, I would think, pretty organic, didn't feel like it was just a brand push. How are you guys thinking about other kinds of content like this?Alex:I don't know if we're at the stage yet where we can start thinking about that sort of thing. I think that Formula One is a great example of taking two powerhouses and linking them together where the sum is greater than or the whole is greater than the some of the parts. So, we're thinking a little bit less about something like that and creating more on a micro scale, I would say, brand and content.Alex:So, when you talk about something like the influencer arena, I am probably the biggest advocate against using influencers in the context that they are used today. And first of all, just to clarify, a true influencer is not somebody that says, "I'm an influencer" on their Instagram profile description, right? A true influencer is somebody that can speak to a community and elicit a response, and often, within a specific category, right? So, I'm not going to give a beauty "influencer" a furniture product and expect him or her to have an outsized impact on the sales.Stephanie:Stephanie:So, you'd focus on the niche influencer who might only have 1,500 followers or something, which is something I think I talked about early on this show, of going through the comments of Instagrammers and seeing, are the people in there asking, "Where can I buy that? Where did you get that from?" Or are they just like, "That's great. Cool. I love that." What kind of engagement are you getting will show if that person has influential power over their community or not.Alex:Totally, totally. And obviously, it's going to vary by a vertical too. This is sort of an extreme example, right? Again, going back to the very considered purchase, even our ability to measure the impact of that is going to be super limited. So, we've actually leaned into the influencer community for, more so is, partnering with actually photography influencers. One of the bottlenecks and problems with our vertical is that our products are very large and our photo shoots and video shoots require massive studios and massive crews that are very, very expensive. Meanwhile, all of these people out there that can already take great pictures and already have really interesting homes need furniture. And so, we can often partner with them in a much more economically scalable way to get a huge diversity and huge volume of content created that can showcase different styles, different aesthetics, different home types, and different personalities, and just build this library of content instead of having to book homes ourselves and go through the whole production process.Alex:So, we've actually been doing that for a while just purely based on economic reasons. But it's interesting to see that now, I think there's going to be a massive shift towards organic for a number of other reasons. When you talk about a lot of the privacy regulations that are going on right now, over the last 10 years, the control of the voice or the conversation has shifted towards the consumer and towards the user. You see like case examples of this with like GameStop, for example. The retail investor just had a massive impact on the market from such a small player, right? Because the control of the conversation momentum is shifting away from the brands that have the big budgets and towards the customers that have the voice, the authentic following.Stephanie:That's the influencer of the year right there.Alex:Yeah, totally.Stephanie:And Reddit. And that's probably where all the other influencers are, an area that I haven't even thought to go, but we've had guests come on previously where Reddit is how they figured out how to build their business, which I haven't even thought to go there. Alex:Totally, totally. I mean, it makes total sense, right? It's experts that are talking because they're passionate about what they're talking about, right, not because they have a vested interest or they are trying to make money off of it, then that's where you get that authentic content from and the actual truth.Stephanie:So, how do you go about incentivizing that or structuring it so it can come in? Because I'm sure a lot of brands are like, "I want my customers to talk about me and take pictures and do all the things," and then they just sit there and nothing comes in. So, what are you doing behind the scenes to make that happen?Alex:So, it's less about focusing so much effort on trying to elicit that response just by trying to elicit it and more about really focusing on that product innovation and that experience that will naturally have that effect on people, right? You don't want somebody to talk about your product in a positive way because you're paying them to talk about it in a positive way, you want them to really advocate, because that means that not only are they talking on the channel that you want them to talk about it, they're also having side conversations. And when people come over to their homes and they're asking, "Wow, where did you get that beautiful sofa from?" They are talking not just about, "Oh, I got it from Burrow," they're also saying like, "And it happens to have these stain resistant fabrics, and it has all of these great other materials, and it was modular, and it was super easy to get it delivered and get it set up." And that's what you really want to go off of.Alex:So, I would say the biggest focus should be on nailing that product innovation and nailing that customer experience, and that's how you can count on that customer conversation to be generated rather than trying to chase down your customers and get them to talk about it in a less authentic way.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. I think that the days when people on Amazon are like, "I got paid for this review," or something, those will be gone very soon, because I don't know about you, but every time I go through a threat and I see that, I'm like, "Don't trust you, don't trust you." I just want to see the normal person who's reviewing it at their own goodwill, or not, maybe they're mad, but I want that. I don't want someone saying, "I got a free product for this review." That just seems like those days are gone.Alex:Yeah, totally, totally.Stephanie:So, the other thing I want to talk about is product development. I saw that your co-founder and CEO said, "Every single product we've ever launched has exceeded expectations and projections, and that's a testament to our customer-centric research-driven design process," which I want to dive into that and hear. I'm sure many brands are like, "I want every single product of mine to be a success, and I want to expand my skews." So, how do you guys go about designing and crafting new products?Alex:Well, I think one thing that we should clear up is the concept of customer centricity is used so broadly and inauthentically, I think. A lot of brands will claim customer centricity and they'll think that they're being customer centric because that's who their customer is and they just need to make money off of them, and so they'll say that they're thinking about all their needs. The problem is they're not actually talking to the customers, they're assuming on behalf of the customers that they know what that customer needs. Or they're just testing messaging, which is fine. That's been the traditional approach of, "Okay, if I play up this feature or this benefit versus this feature or this benefit, and this one does better, that's what the customer must want," right? But it almost becomes a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy there.Alex:We take it to a much deeper level, not just with our customer community but also our lead community, all of our email subscribers that have yet to join and make an actual purchase with us, and actually going to them and asking them very specific and lengthy questions. I remember the first time we sent out a customer survey about one of the next products that we were going to launch and just wanted to get their input on like, "Is this the right product?" Number one, and B, "What are those little things that really bother you about this product?" And did a ton of just open ended response analysis based on that.Alex:The biggest surprise for me from that was the response rate. For a quiz or rather survey that took probably a solid 10 to 15 minutes of someone's time to go through and really complete in depth, which they did, the response rate was astounding. And that opened our eyes to, "Wow, this needs to become a regular occurrence within our work stream."Stephanie:How quickly were you sending this to them? Was it a week after they got their product and are trying to set it up, or what did that look like?Alex:Well, there's a couple different ones. So, what we have is a couple different touch points that are automated or triggered based on somebody actually making their first purchase with us. So, we had, obviously, a post purchase survey right away, which I think is one of the most underappreciated and can be most impactful survey points that people do, or brands do, rather. We also have an NPS survey, which going back to how do you elicit a response from customers and activate customers, NPS is going to be your biggest indicator of how much of that is happening in the background. And that is actually backed up by an element on the post purchase survey where we ask, "Were you were referred by a friend? Does that friend own Burrow furniture, or do they not, or do not know?" And that can also give us a really solid indication of the impact.Alex:So, beyond the triggered survey points, we also do intermittent studies, and it's almost on a monthly cadence now, of either focuses on new categories in general, or we've already identified the category, we've already identified the specific product and we're trying to nail down colors, color combinations, finishes, specific features, doing conjoint analyses on like, what is most important to this set of consumer? I mean, we've really taken it to a super, super deep level.Stephanie:Have there been any products that you launch based off consumer feedback or maybe early launches where it's like, "Oh, they led us astray with that one"? Because I'd be like, "I want a fluorescent pink couch." And then I'd be like, "Oh, I had a little too much wine that night. Sorry about that."Alex:Yeah. Fortunately, we're pretty good at statistics and we can identify outliers and not get swayed by them too much. There actually have not been. And I think it speaks volumes for this concept of authentic customer centricity where... and you can also cross-compare between the customer set and the subscriber set, right? The subscribers are a great audience because they have not purchased anything from you, or at least the subscribers that are not customers, and there's a reason why, right? Versus the customers, they did find something that you offered already and they've already bought into the brand, and they're responding to you because they're still engaged. And so, that's one set of needs that you need to fulfill.Alex:And then there's the other set of needs, and oftentimes, there's a good amount of overlap, which is great for us, and oftentimes, there's not, and that's when we need to make choices around what does that offering look like and who are we really chasing with that?Stephanie:Yep. The other thing I think you mentioned in the past was around how you start thinking about zoning and mapping out what else a person needs in their room, which means like, "Oh, brilliant, okay, if someone got a couch, a little swivel chair, and obviously, they need pillows." And I want to hear, did that method work, and how have you expanded that since you first started trying it I think maybe a year and a half ago or so?Alex:It did, totally. I mean, you take one concrete example of this is with the advent of coffee tables for us. We first launched the sofa and then we launched our first line of coffee tables, and those were specifically designed dimensionally to work best with the sofa styles that were selling the most volumetrically. So, we knew that there was a high rate of match, right, between them. It wasn't like we were designing for something that we were only selling like 5% of our assortment or something like that.Alex:Where that took another level is in 2019, we launched the corner sectional, and then arrangements and configurations started getting a lot more varied and a lot more... opened up actually, additional demographics as well, with more suburban, satellite city homes with larger room spans. And that opened up a new category, and so what we had to do is to figure out, "Okay, well, if you have a five-seat corner sectional, none of our coffee tables really make sense for that. And so, how do we create a coffee table that works perfectly in that configuration for that customer specifically?" So, that's when you saw in late 2020, we released our Kettle and Signal collections, which are more of a round geometry versus a rectangular geometry. And that happens to work really well with things like a Double Chaise Long King Sofa, where the chaise is wrapped nicely around the round coffee table, or the corner sectional, it creates a really nice conversation pit type feeling.Alex:So, it is very much about understanding how our pieces interact. And then the next level that is, what are the types of rooms that people are using it in? What are the actual dimensions of those rooms? And what logically, could somebody need the most, given that room design and size?Stephanie:It seems like a lot of brands are missing that right now, because oftentimes, I mean, whether it's furniture or a lot of other things, I'm like, "Where is that matching dresser set? Or where is the pillow that goes with that?" And it feels like having to go around and look in different places and trying to find it myself, I'm like, "Why am I doing the work? I just want a kit which is like, 'Here's all the five things that match together.'" But why is that so hard? I don't get why can't brands do that?Alex:I think one of the biggest examples of this is that company brand list that skyrocketed, but they were launching things in such unrelated categories that there was no bond between them. And companies nowadays need to think a lot more about lifetime value than they had to necessarily, in the past. Acquisition cost is growing, and they can no longer just rely on first purchase profitability in order to sustainably scale their business, and they need to think about building a relationship with the customer. And that often comes from creating relationship and being the default brand or site to go back to when they may have that next need and finding that perfect accompanying piece, right? Versus just like you buy cleaning detergent from the company, and you come back and, oh, they're offering soccer balls or something.Stephanie:Pillows.Alex:Yeah, it's like, "Okay, well, that doesn't make sense."Stephanie:Yeah. Which makes me think, I mean, it seems like the world is headed towards a more curated world right now. Maybe back in the day, I would go to a Wayfair or something like that and I'd be like, "Cool, I'm fine with scrolling, scrolling," five years later, still scrolling and looking for what I want. It doesn't seem like consumers want that anymore. So, how do you see the consumer journey and preference adjusting now where maybe a couple years ago, that would be totally fine?Alex:Yeah. I think it's almost a byproduct of the ease of standing up a company nowadays. It is exponentially easier to start a company, a direct to consumer company than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. So, because of that, the market has just blown up in terms of the number of companies. And so, the paralysis of choice has shifted from like going to an old school Sears or Macy's and just having like a million different options, or as you put it, like a Wayfair, and just tens of millions of options, to now having to build a relationship with a brand and trust that that brand is making the right decisions. And so, that's why we offer a very select assortment of fabric colors, leg finishes, arm styles. In reality, we can house tens of component skews and offer tens of thousands of combinations to the customer, but what's ultimately the most important thing is that we do it in a way that is still a very simple and clean experience for the customer so that they get that sense of they're creating their own product, but not to the extent of being overwhelmed.Alex:I think of myself on old school furniture sites and staring at the screen from two inches away trying to figure out the difference between this gray and that gray, and I'm like... and then you request swatches from them and they come 10 weeks later.Stephanie:Yeah. I've recently been through that experience. It's not great.Alex:Yeah. No, it's not fun.Stephanie:They arrived and I'm like, "What was I trying to buy, again?" [crosstalk]. I mean, it seems like you guys could also have a very localized approach where, like you mentioned earlier, if someone is looking from a very suburban area, like my hometown in Maryland, where my expectations there would have probably been to have a huge wraparound couch, I've got this big living room, versus being in San Francisco or Austin, where now it's like a little bit more limited space, and what can I fit in these small areas? [crosstalk] think about that?Alex:I mean, the first step there that we're taking, it's more from a content driven approach. So, that goes back or loops back to the way that we're treating influencers and leaning into the photography community and the different styles and aesthetics that they have. Because what we are creating are based products. They are beautiful but they don't belong in an architectural [inaudible] editor's home, right? They're not the one-off piece that you design and custom build for 15 grand or something.Alex:And what's beautiful about that is that they stand up to any environment that you're putting them in, whether it's a very eclectic like Austin ranch style home, or the fourth floor walk up apartment in New York, or a more sprawling home in Houston or another geography like that. And leaning in with more of that stylistic approach than necessarily sub-segmenting, "Oh, we're only going to show love seats to this geography, or we're only going to show these massive sprawling corner sectionals to this other geography," because people still have varying needs, a lot of people have multiple rooms. So, we don't want to limit, necessarily, the assortment, but we are trying to diversify constantly the styles and aesthetics that our products are showcased in.Stephanie:Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. So, for the last big point, I wanted to talk about the industry as a whole, like the D2C industry, commerce, what kind of things are you seeing or preparing for behind the scenes for what's to come?Alex:I mean, we could talk about the elephant in the room, which is-Stephanie:Let's talk about it. Yeah, let's do it. I haven't really talked too much about that, because it's been so up in the air, and when's it going to go through? It's more official now, so let's do it.Alex:Oh, yeah, it's official. This is a tough thing, and I think it's a reckoning for a lot of these companies, again, where it's been so easy to start a company and just go on Facebook, and you'll generate some sales, and go to a VC and you'll show 100% month over month growth, and they'll throw a bunch of cash at you. That's changing, and I'm thankful for it as much as I curse the fact that we don't have this GPS anymore, I'm very thankful that we don't, because it's forcing us to mature as marketers. And we're fortunate also that we've had to embrace this appreciation for marketing 101 and really lean into principles and not just trust what the ad platform are telling us, because it's a whole shopping journey.Alex:So, we've built a very healthy, full funnel approach proactively, even without any of this talk about these privacy regulations. That has helped us create something that can stand up in the face of this. There are a lot of companies that have not done that, they've not invested in really understanding marketing 101 and how to build a healthy full funnel without having that very granular level of insight or having automatic triggers in their campaigns and stuff. So, I think that is the most important thing, is like there is a day of reckoning for marketers everywhere in the D2C space to take a step back and really appreciate the principles of marketing and evaluate your program architecture overall and make sure that it's in a healthy state, and not just because your add to cart rates or your conversion rates are really high from this one campaign in this one ad unit, but really, overall, how is your program operating? Where are the weak points and how can you supplement those?Stephanie:Yeah. So, if you were starting over day one today, what kind of things would you look at? What metrics would you look at? What kind of things would you put in place to start building up that healthy funnel?Alex:Yeah. I think we would look at... I'm trying to think if I didn't have all the information that I have today, but I think what you would look at is the abandonment rate through the funnel, right? Of the people who click through to your site, how many of them end up viewing a product? Of those people, how many of them end up adding it? Of those people, how many of them end up actually proceeding to step one of checkout, step two, step three, step four? And find out what that makeup looks like.Alex:And obviously, you're going to spend a lot of time on conversion rate optimization and trying to improve the outputs of each step of that funnel. But that paints a picture of, okay, how broad do you have to invest at the top of that funnel if your ultimate target at the bottom of the funnel is X? And what does that reach look like? And what are the best mediums to do that to actually elicit a response and get people onto your site or into your store or signing up for whatever service you provide? So, that, I think, is what I would take as step one.Alex:The other one is, I would just consider, for the vertical that you're in and the product that you're trying to sell, how much of a story do you need to tell? And that will help inform how much you will need to invest in more storytelling mediums than more immediate click to buy type mediums. Also, how visual is your product? That will tell you how much you have to be content driven versus leaning into things like search or audio formats or anything like that. And that can really help govern your channel choices.Alex:And then the last thing is just, don't fall into the trap of doing too many things at once. There's always something to be said to acknowledging the resources that you have and trying to build a architecture that is best for that set of resources, not just the one that happens to be doing really well for the other portfolio company that your VC backer is constantly in your ear about, you have to focus on what is going to work for your company, your vertical, your customers specifically.Stephanie:Yep, yeah, I love all that. Is there or are there any tools right now that you're very excited about that are either new or just time tested, you're like, "We're going to keep using these forever because they do wonders for our marketing efforts"?Alex:I think a lot of it is less about tools and more about information sources. So, we've partnered with a number of different companies over time to do things like customer enrichment and really understand our customers to a deeper level, again, going back to that concept of customer centricity, not just talking to them directly, but also learning much, much more about them. And I think one of the biggest traps that a lot of companies fall into is they think of their customer as an average customer, and the problem is they're failing to acknowledge that customers are not one monotonous group, they are a system of clusters and cohorts. And what you really have to do is understand what is unique and important about each of these clusters and then create a messaging architecture, channel architecture, product offering that really speaks to each of those clusters individually.Alex:So, from a tools perspective, it's more about these data enrichment, customer data enrichment type platforms, and then using those to create these clusters and cohorts and really understand those customers. Again, for us, an attribution platform, not super helpful because of the complexity and both mix of offline and online activity that it takes to get to the purchase point. Much more about really understanding the customer and then applying a marketing 101 approach to it.Stephanie:Cool. Yeah, that's great. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer.Alex:Oh, boy.Stephanie:Ready, Alex?Alex:Sure.Stephanie:Oh, boy. What's one thing you don't understand today that you wish you did?Alex:Shoot. Where do I start? I think I would like to understand more about the global supply chain. I think over the last six months to a year maybe, we've seen, very intimately, the impacts of a broken or strained supply chain, and I think that there's a huge opportunity for D2C companies to innovate on the supply chain side. We focus so much on how do we innovate on the customer side that we focus so much less on the supply side of the business. So, I think that is where... and it will become increasingly important for marketers and supply ops to be speaking and working very much hand in hand to grow a company together. So, I do wish I had more of that background.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. And you guys just raised around, and I think that money, a part of it, was to focus on international supply chain effort, right? Figuring that out better.Alex:Yes, totally.Stephanie:So, you're already right in the right spot, the right time. You'll have to let everyone else know the insight. You have to come back and tell us what you learn next year.Alex:Yes, definitely.Stephanie:What's up next on your reading list or podcast list?Alex:There's actually a couple books I think that I want to reread. I'm one of those weird people that really likes to read technical books, and so there's a couple of conversations we're having right now about pricing in this book called Power Pricing that I love to read. There's also one by a gentleman named Douglas Holt called Cultural Strategy that I think is one of the most foundational and important books, especially for the world today. And again, how the customer controls the conversation, and understanding how to position your company and your messaging around cultural movements and ride momentum versus trying to create that momentum yourself as you have in the past. The last one is Shoe Dog, actually.Stephanie:Yes, such a good book.Alex:Amazing book. This would now be, I think, my third time reading it, but it is a way to, I think... A lot of people have been talking about languishing right now and the fact that we've been in this environment for so long and we're yearning for that personal interaction, and so tired of being in the sedentary and fixed on a digital screen environment. And I think Shoe Dog can help reignite a lot of that passion, right? Because it's like, "Wow, this multi-billion dollar company started at such a microscopic level." And it really helps you understand the power and the capability you have as an individual to create something like that and can help really reignite that passion.Stephanie:Yeah, that's one of my favorite books. Actually, we have a podcast called The Story that tells the unknown backstory of people who change the world, and we highlighted him in one of the episodes because we were like, "The story is too good not to tell, and tell, and tell until everyone hears it, and gets motivated and starts their thing today."Alex:Yeah, totally.Stephanie:That's awesome. I feel like they need a movie out or something. Do they have one?Alex:I'm sure there will be. I'm sure there will be.Stephanie:There has to be one. Too good of a story not to. What's one thing you're secretly curious about? [crosstalk].Alex:TikTok, I think.Stephanie:Are you all on there?Alex:We are not. From a demographic perspective, in the past, I would say a year and a half, it hasn't made sense. The program is continuing to grow, the demographic adoption is continuing to expand, and so I am interested in what it looks like going forward. I think it is also a challenging medium for a lot of brands that are really attached to high production quality content, because what scales the best on that platform is very lo-fi content, very organic and authentic content. And it creates this shift for a lot of companies in the way that they think about creative. So, I'm curious in that we are actively learning about our potential approach to that channel, but also curious about how does that platform and program evolve over time. I've not heard great things about the ad platform that they've built so far, which is partially why we've been hesitant to really go after the channel, but that will evolve. They will crack that code. And what that looks like, I don't know, but I'm certainly curious.Stephanie:Yeah. We've definitely heard 50-50 on TikTok, some brands saying it works wonders, but they're the ones creating their own content, maybe not an ad partner programs. I also think from a consumer standpoint, how it's going to evolve, because at least me personally, I think I got signed out and I couldn't remember my password-Alex:Oh, no.Stephanie:... and I just never signed back in. I'm like, "I'm not sure I really like it then, or maybe I know that just scrolling is not good for me."Alex:Yeah. That was me with Clubhouse, actually.Stephanie:Oh, same.Alex:I loved Clubhouse for the first seven days and was on it constantly and I have not been back on it for [crosstalk].Stephanie:Yeah. I think it got crowded. I mean, now it's just so busy, so many people talking about so many things, it didn't feel curated. I started feeling like that to me too where it was 50-50 of like, "I like these videos, and next nine, I don't like." I think there has to be curation to keep at least us involved, it sounds like.Alex:Yeah, totally. I mean, honestly, that's what happened with the podcast world too, right? It became everybody launched their own podcast, and then there's so much content. The biggest problem with podcasts now is discovery. The only way you learn about what to listen to is through your friends.Stephanie:Yeah.Alex:And so, that concept of discovery is such a challenge for podcasts right now, and I think that's what Clubhouse is going through at 1,000 times faster through the learning cycle.Stephanie:Yeah. I think the next couple of years will be interesting, because I mean, they've been talking about discovery issues back to even when I worked at Google, figuring out Google podcasts, and that was an issue back in 2017. So, why hasn't this been solved yet? It should be so much easier.Alex:Yeah.Stephanie:All right. Well, Alex, it's been awesome having you on the show, such a fun conversation. Where can people find out more about you and Burrow?Alex:Burrow.com would be the easiest place.Stephanie:What about you? Are you on LinkedIn? What if people want to talk to you?Alex:I am. LinkedIn. Alex Kubo. I'm not sure if you can actually search me and find me, but I'm sure you could.Stephanie:I'll find you. Don't worry. All right. Thanks so much, Alex.Alex:Thank you so much, Stephanie.

Interview with Alex Oh and Samuel Hilbert of Aluel Cellars Join us for an exciting conversation with Alex Oh and Samuel Hilbert of Aluel Cellars. Alex is a former TerraLex Member and is currently Vice President of Intellectual Property at Visus Therapeautics. Listen to Alex and Samuel talk about living a life of balance, pursuing your passion, the willingness to work hard, and wine! In celebration of Pride Month, Alex and Samuel also talk to us about The Scholar by Aluel Cellars. The Scholar by Aluel Cellars is a special edition Bordeaux-style red blend created in collaboration with the Greater Seattle Business Association (GSBA). With every purchase, a portion of the proceeds goes directly to supporting the GSBA Scholarship Fund, which awards scholarships to LGBTQ and allied students in support of their pursuit of higher education. This special edition red wine is offered at $19.90 a bottle to commemorate the founding of the GSBA Scholarship Fund in 1990. Click here to support the GSBA Scholarship fund and buy your own bottle of The Scholar.

As the Rosen Family returns to DisneyLand, with Jay still podcasting from a still undisclosed location, he and Tom take a look at this week’s stories top compliance and ethics stories which caught their interest on This Week in FCPA in the Back to DisneyLand edition. Stories $28MM whistleblower award in FCPA case. Menqui Sun in the WSJ Risk and Compliance Journal. SEC Press Release. Will investigations on China become even more difficult? Helen Hwang and Eric Carlson in the FCPA Blog. Ephemeral messaging guidelines. Rebecca Cronin in JDSupra. What is moral equilibrium? Vera Cherepanova in the FCPA Blog. Great series on the VW monitorship. Aly McDevitt in Compliance Week Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5 (sub req’d). Using neuroscience in leadership. Dr. David Rock in Flexworks. Corruption and soccer. In Risk and Compliance Platform Europe. Underarmour settles EC charges. Mike Volkov in Corruption, Crime and Compliance. How do you mind the data gap? SEC Commish Caroline Crenshaw in the Havard Law School Forum on Corporate Governance. Judge admonishes Paul Wiess and Alex Oh. Mike Volkov comments in Corruption Crime and Compliance. Podcasts and Events In this episode of Survive and Thrive, Tom and Korney Nordum discuss how to naviage an SEC review of your Code of Conduct. In the most recent episode of Integrity Through Compliance, recorded before the recent Colonial Pipeline Ransomware attack, Affiliated Monitors, Inc.’s MD Dionne Lomax, sat down with Dentons’ Kelly Graf to discuss Privacy and Cybersecurity Issues for 2021 and Beyond. Now that cybersecurity is in the news more than ever, this conversation couldn’t be more relevant. Check it out here. In a special K2 Integrity Matters podcast, Tom visits with Gabe Hidalgo on the latest on cryptocurrencies and their issues. Join K2 Integrity’s team on the latest DOLFIN Webinar: Ask an Expert FINQuiry on High-Risk Banking. Chip Poncy, Gabe Hidalgo, Gail Fuller, and Archana Bea will lead the discussion on high-risk banking, businesses, and products; emerging risks in the virtual assets space; and financial crime risk management for fintechs. Learn more and register here.  Tom announces his latest book, The Compliance Handbook, 2nd edition is available for presale purchase. Use the code FOX25 and go here. The Compliance Handbook 2ndedition will be available in both print and eBook editions. This week on The Compliance Handbook podcast, Eric Young joins Tom for a deep dive into the role of internal controls in a best practices compliance program. Tom Fox is the Voice of Compliance and can be reached at tfox@tfoxlaw.com. Jay Rosen is Mr. Monitor and can be reached at jrosen@affiliatedmonitors.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Just a week into her tenure as a high-ranking SEC official, former BigLaw partner Alex Oh abruptly resigned in April — with little indication as to why. Now, the former Paul Weiss attorney has been sanctioned over a tense deposition in a human rights case against Exxon. On this week’s episode, Law360 senior securities reporter Deal Seal joins the show to unpack this messy situation. Also this week: A Texas bankruptcy judge dismisses the NRA’s bankruptcy case on account of bad faith; New Jersey sets strict guidelines on attorney accolades like Super Lawyers; and a Michigan man shows up for Zoom court with an unfortunate (and hilarious) screen name.

Jay is moving this week so he is 000. Tom takes a solo look at this week’s stories top compliance and ethics stories which caught his interest on This Week in FCPA. He is joined by special guests Dave Lefort to talk about the upcoming Compliance Week 2021 and Matt Kelly on Alex Oh.  Stories  Alex Oh resigns. Matt Kelly in Radical Compliance. What are 3 top BOD priorities? Maria Motes in CCI. Why compliance must understand business process. Mike Volkov in Corruption Crime and Compliance. Post pandemic business resiliance. Jim Deloach in CCI. What is location risk? Atul Vashistha in CCI. Investor due diligence on modern slavery. Subodh Mishra in the Havard Law School Forum on Corp Governance. ComEd as a wake up call. Vincent Wu in the Global AntiCorruption Blog. May is Internal Auditors Month. Navez Global’s Ethics and Compliance Matters Blog. German ups its AML game. Risk and Compliance Platform Europe. Want insight in WFH procrastion? Dick Cassin says look to writers, in the FCPA Blog. Podcasts and Events Tom and Megan Dougherty are doing a special podcast series around The Falcon and The Winter Soldier, currently streaming on Disney+. Check out Episodes 1&2, Episode 3, Episode 4, Episode 5. Episode 6 drops next week. This month on The Compliance Life, Tom welcomes Jonathon Kellerman. In Episode 1, Jonathon discusses the path he took to compliance. In Episode 2, he talked about his early professional career in healthcare compliance consulting. In Episode 3, he moves to the CCO Chair. In Episode 4, Jonathon looks down the road for what’s next in compliance. Join K2 Integrity on 6 May 2021 for a webinar, presented in Spanish, “Reputational Due Diligence for Companies and Investment Firms.” The team will discuss scenarios and cases in which reputational due diligence helped uncover hidden areas of risk and opportunities for our clients. Learn more and register here.  Join Tom and Jay at Converge21, the Workshop Edition, click here. Best of all, its free. Join Jay and Tom at Compliance Week 2021. For information and registration, click here. Listeners to this podcast can receive a discount of $200 by using the code PODCAST599 at check out. CCI releases a new eBook, The FCPA Year in Review by the Compliance Evangelist, Tom Fox. You can obtain a copy here. Best of all its available at no charge. Tom announces his latest book, The Compliance Handbook, 2nd edition is available for presale purchase. Use the code FOX25 and go here. The Compliance Handbook 2ndedition will be available in both print and eBook editions. This week on The Compliance Handbook podcast, Eric Young joins Tom for a deep dive into the role of internal controls in a best practices compliance program. Tom Fox is the Voice of Compliance and can be reached at tfox@tfoxlaw.com. Jay Rosen is Mr. Monitor and can be reached at jrosen@affiliatedmonitors.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

While many companies still look for programmers who have CS degrees, there is often a gap between what colleges teach and the skills the industry requires. This is a gap that bootcamps are trying to fill and today we have Alex Oh, founder of Seoul-based bootcamp WCoding, here to share his perspectives on this newer approach to learning code. We start our conversation on the subject of the many paths into programming by sharing pieces of our own code learning journeys.

Interacting with customers requires a level of finesse and talent that is beautiful when done well, and a tough sight when done poorly. There is give and take, and you have to flow through various movements and ups and downs to reach a satisfying end result. It’s like a dance. A tango if you will. At least, that’s how the folks over at LivePerson see it. Alex Spinelli is the CTO and EVP of product, technology, and operations at LivePerson, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he broke down what that dance should look like, and how A.I. is taking the lead.  As Alex explains, LivePerson is a set of tools, technologies and platforms that enable businesses to have conversations with customers through messaging channels, and to detect where customers may be getting stuck or frustrated. Then, with a small immediate intervention, LivePerson’s A.I. routes that customer to a human who can make the buying process easier. It is a way to get to a better end result more often, and it works. Businesses using LivePerson have seen double-digit-percentage-point improvement in conversions and higher NPS scores than ever. But the power of A.I. doesn’t end there, and Alex dives deep into where we are headed with A.I. as a tool in retail, including the blended in-person and virtual experiences that seem to be overlapping more than ever before. And Alex gets into the nitty-gritty of the ethics behind A.I. and how everyone will have to be more involved going forward when it comes to defining their limits, wants, and needs. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Joining Forces: The future of A.I. in the ecommerce space is in the way brands can join together an A.I. experience with a human-based one. The way brands should be looking at A.I. is as a conversation-starter and a tool that can solve transactional problems, but when a deeper conversation is needed, it should be able to usher customers through a seamless transition to a real person who can build a relationship, form trust, solve problems, and ensure that the customer experience is a good one the has a positive end result.Let’s Get Ethical!: With any new technology, there are ethical questions that have to be addressed. This is especially true when dealing with A.I. Not only do you have to take into account the repercussions that A.I. will have on the labor force, but you also have to consider how A.I. is being trained, what kind of biases are being programmed into the model, and how and when to start and stop collecting data to build bigger and better A.I. models.  Blend It Up: As we move further into the fourth industrial revolution, we are beginning to see more blending of virtual, digital, and physical experiences. Conversational technology will begin to follow us into physical stores and A.I., along with more targeting-types of technology, will be used in and out of stores.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today we have Alex Spinelli joining the show. He's the CTO at LivePerson. Alex, welcome.Alex:Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on. So I was looking through your background. And I was hoping we could kind of start with your days at Alexa, because I feel like there's probably a lot of good juicy stories there and I want to hear a bit about what was your role there? What did you do there? And then we can jump into the big topic around AI and your current product?Alex:Sure, sure. I led what we call the Alexa OS. And what that was, or is today, is really the core software platform that powers the Alexa experience, the brain. It included things like personalization, speaker recognition, so Alexa knows who's talking to her. And then all of the APIs and technologies, dialogue management, they really power the whole experience and allowed both internal developers at Amazon and skill builders, so skills are like apps for Alexa, to go and build those experiences. So it was really the cloud operating system for Alexa.Stephanie:So what drew you to that field and industry?Alex:Yeah, so I've always been pretty connected to AI, natural language, even going back to, I have a lot of roots in news, something I was pretty passionate about, in news technology. So at Thomson Reuters, for example, where I lead technology for news, both for real time news, algorithmic trading, and then also all the Reuters news properties and journalists, the tools that journalists use, I spent a lot of time trying to understand how do people consume information, how they read information, and how can digital and computers really help us find the most important things, gain insight from information, gain insight from data.Alex:So then I kind of took a little bit of a hiatus from news, and when I joined Amazon, I was leading search. So the whole experience for browsing and discovering the right product for you, and trying to optimize that, make it easier. And one of the things that was really interesting is, I started to see the limitations of these very flat experiences, search pages, web pages and apps. And people started to try to have a conversation with Amazon search. So they'd ask questions in search, is this product compatible with this one? What's the best gift for my daughter who's graduating high school? And all these interesting questions, and the experience often fell down. So we actually started looking at what we called query understanding and natural search and all these interesting things where we wanted to help people get answers to their questions and have a dialogue with the search experience.Alex:And I thought it was pretty hard. In the sort of traditional, I put in a query, I get a set of results, that interface just didn't work really well. Alexa at the time was just kind of quirky little device that was just launching at Amazon very early days, I actually had one, I was part of the early beta testing. And I said, "God, I want to be part of that. That actually is starting to recreate the way we're going to interact with our digital lives and we're going to use natural language. And I guess the rest is history. I think when I joined there was 20 or 30 people in the team. And again, it was this quirky little device that people were like, "What the hell is this thing? Is this going to be big?" And yeah, in six months, we sold millions of devices, and I was growing a team, and we were adding all kinds of new features and capabilities. And it was pretty much a rocket ship, which was pretty fun.Stephanie:That's awesome. I have Alexas throughout the house. I've always wondered though, how to get past that hurdle of, like when you're talking with someone, you are very free flowing and you'll ask any kind of questions. And I feel like oftentimes, with Alexa or any speaker that you would talk into, you're like, "Ah, ah, what can I ask? I don't know what to say. I don't know how to phrase it." And it feels like there's still a bit of a hurdle with a lot of conversational speakers to get past the getting you help kind of with anything, and being able to query things in a million different ways, so that you're not like me, where you're just like, "And I'm stumped and now I'm just going to open up the app on my phone and resort to the old way of doing things."Alex:Yes. So it's interesting, because that same challenge is what actually led me to LivePerson. So when I met my current boss, he was explaining what LivePerson was doing, which was really a messaging platform for customer service and sales. And he said, "Listen, we're really interested in taking things to the next level with AI." And my first response was, "I'm good. I'm at the hottest product on the planet." And Rob and I had known each other for years from New York and we had conversations earlier. I said, "I'm good."Alex:He said, "Well listen, there's an opportunity to take what you're doing at Amazon, creating these natural experiences, but actually democratize it and do it for companies all around the world, large and small, and really help consumers interact in a new way." And it kind of stuck with me. And I started, we had more and more conversations, and I ended up joining. And I think the key differentiation that you're seeing is, I think the smart speakers in that whole space, they aren very transactional, right?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Alex:They've kind of started to center around entertainment, home entertainment, smart home. And they are still fundamentally very, very, I ask for something, I get the result, I ask for something, I get the result. And what we're trying to do here, because we're working for all different businesses and companies, is allow you to have a full-fledged conversation to build a relationship with the things that are important to you in your life, your bank, your healthcare company, your insurance company — Industries that tech and AI have tended to ignore, like, "Those are big, boring, you can't change them." And I think the problem is we've kind of leaned into these proxies of relationship building, apps, well, you can't build a... You and I are having a conversation. I didn't send you the A.L.E.X. app and say, "Here, you can get any answer to any question, you can click and browse and tap and search, and you'll get..."Alex:You didn't send me your app. We're having a dialogue and a conversation. What's crazy is businesses have put the app, they've actually done that crazy thing. They've said, "Oh, no, don't talk to us. Don't have a conversation with us here, use our app, use our website." And what we want to do is actually do exactly what you described, have that fluid conversation, build a real relationship. And the key for us, and this is where I think the smart speakers fall down, is humans have to be involved as well. So you can't get stuck. The AI is not going to be able to solve every dialogue.Alex:So the way we look at the world is the AI as a kind of concierge in many ways, and begins and initiates the dialogue and conversation for simple things like play music, do this, do that, AI can do it. But then when you really need to have a more meaningful conversation, we want to connect you with the right person. And Alexa can't do that, because just the scale wouldn't work. It's just for Amazon, where I think when you start thinking about democratizing AI, we can actually start to do that and make it a useful tool, not just for the consumer, but also for the employees of the business.Stephanie:Yep. I mean, now it seems like it's the perfect time too, because I think through the past five years or so, and it seems like we've kind of gone through a period where everything had to be optimized, you don't want to have support centers, you've got bots everywhere, you can do drop shipping now, you don't need brands, you don't need... Just white label products, we went through this phase, and now we're kind of coming out on the other side where people are like, "I don't really want to talk just to a bot, I want to talk to a person. If I instantly want to call, I want to be able to have someone there. And it seems like now consumers' expectations have changed where it's like we're a little bit there, we were getting used to just, "Okay, I'll just talk to the chat and see if it fixes it." And now it seems like expectations are so much higher than they even were just a couple years ago.Alex:I think part of that is this digital was growing due to convenience, right?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Alex:We were buying large bulk things. We were buying simple things. We were buying more toothpaste, more batteries, more this, more that. And as we started to need to use digital, and now in the pandemic, obviously, need to, have to, no other way, for all the things in our life. Yeah, we want to actually connect those things to values, our values, right? So the brands matter. The business matters, what does that brand stand for? What are the values that they stand behind? So I do think you're right, I think the need for developing a real relationship is important.Alex:And if you look at, actually it's interesting, banks, telcos, all these kind of big, stodgy, old businesses, or at least we used to think of them that way, or kind of were perceived that way, they kind of lost their differentiation, right? A banking app is a banking app is a banking app, they all look the same, feel the same, act the same. But not all banks are the same, they have different values, they have different missions.Alex:And without being able to talk and have a conversation, you don't get to connect your values to where you're putting your money. So I think that's the shift. I think people now care. They're spending all their dollars in the digital world, by and large. Even the restaurants, who's delivering? Is it Postmates? Is it Uber? Is it Grubhub? It matters. We want to support the right business who has the values that we share. So yeah, I think it's really important. A connection is super important.Stephanie:Yep. I also think a lot about retail. A lot of people probably do miss those experiences of going in stores and having someone there to ask questions to, and now that just needs to be mimicked more in the digital space where people are like, "Well, I can't," or maybe they can start to now, but for a while there, you couldn't go in and have your normal conversations and ask where things were. I mean, I go all the time, and I'll be like, "What kind of wine do you like? Just tell me what you like. I'll buy whatever you tell me because I don't know." And I miss that. And I was looking for that. But oftentimes it was lacking in the digital world. So-Alex:Yeah, so I think developing the tools to allow the... Brands are made of people, and enabling people to actually come through the digital world and connect is exactly what you're saying. Yeah, we thrive that human experience. I mean, we desire that human experience.Stephanie:Yeah. So tell me a little bit deeper about what is LivePerson? Because I'm hearing it is like it's essentially conversational AI for any industry, it's not just focused on commerce, it can be banking, it can be anywhere, is that the right way to think about it? Or maybe I'll let you describe it better.Alex:Yeah, so at our core, at our roots, it's a set of tools, technologies, platforms, that enable you as a business to actually have conversations with your customers through messaging channels. So this is the way we've all started to interact with one another. My daughter and I don't talk on the phone as much, it's all messaging, but I can talk to her all day long, right? Because it's asynchronous, it's on my time, it's on her time, she can be in class, I can be in this meeting, we can start a conversation and continue it. So the core offering is letting businesses do that. So giving those interactions back to the consumer on their schedule. And then we start to layer on a lot of intelligence.Alex:So a lot of those conversations can be led by an AI to gather information, to do the simple things, to actually help you with, what's your name, what's your account number, what's your size, reset my password, pay my bill, lots of things that really become kind of very rote. And then you start to really get more and more advanced in enabling you to shop, enabling you to buy, enabling you to transact. And the whole platform lets you never get stuck. So you can have a conversation, it can be part of an automation, you can be looking at a product, you can be asking questions to a bot about the size, color, compatibility, etc. And then when you get stuck, we can actually detect that and route you immediately to a person, a real human being that can help you. And we call that the tango. So it's this-Stephanie:I like that.Alex:... beautiful dance that allows us to go back and forth. And that's really, I think, where we excel. And then just from a technical perspective, we wrap all of that with a set of analytics and tools that even if you're a small business, you can use to look at the health of those conversations, how's it going? Is it making you money? Is it costing you more? How's your customer satisfaction? And those kinds of things. So it's a pretty full suite of tools to build a new kind of customer experience.Stephanie:That's awesome. So what kind of results do you see? Especially around commerce, when it comes to, like you said, you're doing the tango, you're sending them over to a customer service person. What would you see, otherwise? I'm sure losing that customer and not converting to a sale, are there any metrics that you guys have that you can share?Alex:Yeah, so it definitely is industry dependent and customer dependent. And we tend not to share direct customer numbers. But this is why I joined, the results are crazy. And so when Rob and I were talking about me joining LivePerson, he said that, "We're kind of onto something where we see costs go down, customer satisfaction go up, NPS go up, conversion rates go up, and agent turnover, or sales agent turnover go down." And I said, "There's no way all those metrics can be moving in the positive direction." Usually, there's trade offs. But right now, that's what we're seeing.Alex:So we do see conversion rates for conversations to be often double digit percentages better than experiences that didn't have. So if you were interacting in an app or a website, and we detect that you might be stuck, you might be jumping back and forth between pages, we'll actually offer like, "Hey, it looks like you might be having... Do you have a question? Do you have a problem?" And then we'll have that dialogue and that conversation.Alex:And that might be a tangoed conversation mixed and matched between an AI and a human. And we see conversion rates of those dialogues, again, double digit percent. There's a large big box retailer whose conversion rates typically exceed over 15% when a conversation is initiated. And a typical conversion rate on web shopping is single digits, mid to 5%, 6%. So significant increases when you actually connect and have a dialogue are pretty common for us.Stephanie:Wow, that's cool. So if I'm a brand-Alex:Yeah, it's pretty powerful.Stephanie:Yeah, I mean, it sounds amazing. It sounds like, why wouldn't someone use something like this? If I'm a brand, and I'm thinking about setting this up, would you be tapping into my customer support people who are trained my way and then you're like, you train the AI, you got the questions in there, the answers, you kind of map all that out, you've got your database, and then you're constantly learning, I'm assuming, from what people are saying and what's actually helpful. And then, when you go into the tango mode, it goes over to your customer service people, or how does that work?Alex:So our tooling, mostly, is used directly by the brand. So you're a brand, our technology sits inside, I mean it's SaaS base technology, but it sits inside your contact center. Actually, the way we typically will train AI, it's actually pretty cool, you have human conversations first, and you don't need many. So you actually start to have human to human conversations. And then just in a few weeks, we can actually collect enough data to go and build the best intents. So intent is, as you're having a natural language discussion and an AI is detecting what you need. So an intent is the thing that you want, I want to pay a bill, I want to buy that product. Is this product compatible? Does this come with batteries? Whatever have you. Those are all intents.Alex:So those intents are basically derived from your real customer conversations. So the accuracy ends up being very high. And we've actually built the whole series of proprietary data models that are very industry specific. So in retail, in airlines, in banking, in insurance, we can actually have some really high accurate recognition. And again, those intents can be recognized for human conversations, so that we can tell the agent exactly what's going on and what this person needs. And then they're also used to go and build those AI driven experiences.Alex:And the goal is, can we take all the mundane repeatable stuff away from the agents? So the agents are really closing the sale, they're really helping tough problems. And this is why you see agent satisfaction go up, because they're not doing the rote, same, same, same, same conversations, all that's done by the AI. And then the agents actually having a kind of much more high bandwidth interaction.Stephanie:Like doing the creative work, where they can think and solve- [crosstalk]Alex:Exactly.Stephanie:... problems. And I mean, I think it comes back to, for a while there, everyone's like, "AI is going to take our jobs." It's like, "No, it's augmenting your jobs. And it's doing the things that you probably don't want to do anyways. But now you just get to work on higher level things," I would think.Alex:We do see that. And it's interesting, we see the wait times... So rather than waiting for 30 minutes, you actually wait for very little time. And then that agent can actually spend the time and energy to have a, just like you said, a much more creative high bandwidth conversation. So we don't see this, "Yeah, take..." It's changing jobs, it's augmenting jobs, it does require some new training, for sure. But at least right now, it's not this job killer, it actually opens up the world for new jobs. We actually are converting agents to data annotators.Alex:So agents in real time can actually go and label conversations and data to improve the AI. So it's actually advancing their roles in some ways. Again, I'm not going to be naïve, there will come a time where automation and those kinds of things do impact jobs at scale. I think we as responsible business people need to think about what's the next thing, right? And what's the next set of opportunities. So I'm hopeful in general, we are pretty hopeful and positive on where we can get to, but I think we have to kind of wade in very open eyed and make sure we do the right thing as we go forward.Stephanie:Yeah, so when thinking about doing the right thing, I think it'd be good to get a little lay of the land of the AI field in general, because I feel like it's had a pretty bumpy couple of years, just I mean, so many headlines were made around unintended consequences of using AI models, labeling things incorrectly. There's just been a lot out there. So what does it look like now? And especially in the world of commerce, how do we think about, where is AI even being utilized properly, or misused? And where could it be in a couple years? Or where should it be?Alex:The biggest challenge with AI is bias. And I'll explain what that means. So some of the bias is deliberate, some is not deliberate, or intentional and unintentional. So AI is only as good as the data. So what AI is, at the end of the day, it's a tool that allows you to look at lots and lots of data, examples. And then you build a model, mathematical model, statistical model, that makes certain assumptions based on the examples. And so if you were trying to make an AI service that would recognize oranges, this is when I used to meet people in person at South by Southwest to give a talk, I put this big, gnarly looking orange on the screen. It was not orange, it was mostly white and moldy and green. And I'd asked the audience, "Who knows what this is?" And 95% of people would raise their hand, I'd say, "What is it?"Alex:And everyone knew it was an orange. No one saw an orange [inaudible] anything like that. Unless you went on vacation and left an orange on your counter for like three weeks, then you maybe have seen an orange like that. But everyone instantly recognized it, right? So really what's happening is very similar to AI, you've seen thousands of oranges in your life. So there's a bunch of features of an orange, little dimples, the skin, the [inaudible] possible colors, it's round. And your brain immediately matched that image to this archetype of an orange, even though you've never seen an orange that looks like that. That's really what AI is doing. So if you have a bad data set, if you showed a young kid, many, many different images of things that weren't oranges, but you told them it was an orange, right?Alex:When that image would pop, they might not recognize it, they might not be able to tell what it was, or they might misrecognize something else and call it an orange. So the data under AI can inherently have bias by where we collect it from. So if we're trying to collect data to recognize a certain type of person, or a certain type of behavior, or a certain type of language, if we don't have a representative data set from the right populations, the AI is going to be biased, it's going to be biased based on that data set. Or if humans label that data, and those humans come from a certain one kind of homogenous background, they might label the data with their own biases. Again, that could be unintentional, but everyone brings their own unconscious biases with them.Alex:Or lastly, engineers, when they build AI models have their own biases, too. They think certain things are important and other things are unimportant. Simple kind of innocuous examples, if you're building a trading system, and you thought the weather really had an importance on stock prices, so that engineer would build weather as being a heavily weighted variable, that's a bias. So the key actually is recognizing all the ways that biases can creep in and creating some standards, and then really having the tools and process in your company to actually recognize those, and ask the question, and make sure that you're doing all the things that you need to do to eliminate that. That bias is what we've seen in some of these horror stories around AI.Alex:And it was kind of rushing headlong into it and not really thinking deeply about it. So there's actually some great organizations that... We actually took the EqualAI pledge as a company. So there's a nonprofit called EqualAI, that is working with industries to try to eliminate bias in AI. Or I should probably rephrase, not eliminate, but really try to mitigate. I don't know if we'll ever be able to fully mitigate-Stephanie:Or eliminate.Alex:Eliminate, sorry, yep. It's just super important, and it's actually the right thing. It's good for your business. It's good for your employees, it's just something we have to do, ethical use of any new powerful tool, no matter what it is, you have to actually consider those things. So I think that's the key challenge right now. And I think we're still in the early, early days of really grappling with it.Stephanie:Yeah, I mean, it seems like too, right now, a lot of models will have to be thrown away because they were all trained on a set of consumers that are still there, but now there's all these new consumers who's come on the market that were never shopping online before, never doing their grocery shopping online. And we had a really good guest from Stitch Fix, she was the VP of data science there. And she was like, the way that the older generation, who's now trying out Stitch Fix, wants to talk with us is very different than how we were talking with millennials. And so you have to start rethinking about, do I keep my model and adjust it? Do I just throw it out and start over? And it seems like a tricky point now, because you just had this big inflow of new consumers that you never really were talking with before last year.Alex:Yeah, I have a 14-year old. And it's been an interesting journey as most of his communication has really moved online, and the words and terminology and no cap and sus and all these funny terms. They need to be built in to model. So your VP at Stitch Fix is 100% correct. And we need to go and deal with that. And I don't know if it's about throwing away, I think it's more about augmenting and building on top of. The good news is the influx is a big number of people coming, and those large numbers can actually improve the models pretty quickly, if the number that you're starting with was smaller. But it's something we actually, because we live and breathe natural language, we actually have to stay on top of really, really regularly. And yeah, this is going to be the perennial challenge. This is where actually that, remember I talked about I'm transforming agent roles?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Alex:So one of the things that we've looked at and we've just actually released this, it's pretty cool, is the agents, as they're having conversations, can label the intents and they can actually improve intents, and they can actually retag intents and all this kind of stuff. And so we believe, and this is where I think we are changing roles, not eliminating, the agents know your products, they know your language, they know the markets you're operating in, they talk to your customers every day, and they're the ones that are going to be best positioned to kind of add and augment those models, so it's actually really important to have them as part of that process.Stephanie:Oh, that's really interesting, that they can do that now. And I could see it being really helpful too, because I have heard that oftentimes, models can also, like you said, train themselves and turn into a black box where it's like they keep ingesting the wrong data, wrong data, and then you build up maybe algorithms that, I remember at certain companies I used to work at, you kind of didn't know what was in there, at a certain point, you're like, "I don't know how it's working. I don't know why it's working this way." How much data do you need? Is there ever a point where you're like, "That's enough, let's stop. Only collect it this many times." Because right now, it feels like we're in a world of like, just get as much as you can and ingest as much as you can. Which seems like it could maybe have unintended consequences.Alex:Agreed. But explainability is still a big problem with AI. So there's a startup for folks out there listening, create some technology that offers introspection and explainability to large machine learn models. It's not a solved problem. And I don't have a good answer, actually, when do you have enough, when don't you have enough? I think you need to constantly benchmark, constantly look at your accuracy, and have all the protections in place that you are looking for that bias, you are looking for those negative consequences. And that's hard work. That's not like putting some technology gaps in place and a threshold, that's really having a dialogue internally, asking the questions, turning over rocks, what could be the negative consequences here? It's kind of active management right now, and it really needs to be baked into your kind of culture, that it's something that you focus on.Stephanie:Yeah, definitely agree there. So what kind of opportunities do you see? Where do you think conversational commerce should be in the next one to three years? Or what do you think is going to start happening?Alex:So I think the big opportunity right now is actually the topic of our chat is more commerce, like real shopping, real purchasing, real buying, I think conversational commerce, primarily over the last number of years, has been sort of sat in that care, support, follow up space. And now because digital is a necessity, not a convenience, we're starting to see, like I said before, all the little breakage and the flat experiences. So I think the big opportunities are around how can we really help people discover?Alex:So discovery is really hard. With Alexa, for example, you don't know what Alexa can do and can't do, and those kinds of [inaudible]. Discovery is that still a big challenge. Huge opportunity there. It's how do you stitch conversations together with discovery? And to me, that's all about actually modeling the behaviors that we would have in real life. So we're going to go back to stores, we're going to go back to malls, they're going to be changed up, they're going to be very different. I think we're going to see conversations in the digital world follow us in and try to fill in the gaps and start to really help us in a much more kind of blended way. So there's something called the Fourth Industrial Revolution, if you really want to geek out. It's this-Stephanie:Oh, yeah, we've talked about this before-Alex:Oh, cool. Yeah.Stephanie:... on a lot of our other podcasts.Alex:It's this blending of the virtual and physical. Yeah. So I think the big opportunities are in real commerce, and how do we start to blend the physical and the virtual? So we see, for example, especially during COVID, blending conversations with curbside pickup, I'm ready, I'm here, are you here? I want to add this, can you get me... So really trying to fill in all those gaps in those interactions and exchanges. So I think that's where a lot of the kind of next stage plays, is we're going to see conversations start to power a lot more of our transactions and commercial activities, and starting to blend together that physical and virtual, that's where we're spending a lot of our time.Stephanie:That's cool. I mean, so what kind of tech advancements are needed, because I'm even thinking about that Fourth Industrial Revolution and blending that, and okay, if you're walking to a store, I mean, I know there was a while there where store owners were hesitant to even install the beacons so that you would know who's coming in your store. And there was a lot of hangups when it came to retail that didn't allow the digital world to interact with them, because you had to have hardware infrastructure changes, there was a lot needed there. So what kind of things are needed for that advancement to take place?Alex:Yeah, well, a bunch of things. I mean, these things have basically become supercomputers, right? These are more powerful than even the biggest machines 10, 15 years ago. So they're going to take on more and more of the processing. I think image recognition, big space. And then I think a lot of that starts to wrap together the privacy concerns, so giving control back to the consumer about what data I share and when based on my needs and what I want to do. So that's where I think you're going to see a lot of technology advancement is, yes, beacons. Yes, image recognition. Yes, the kind of blending of conversations and in person and then live and all these kinds of things and trying to, like I said, stitch that experience together.Alex:But if I were, again, entrepreneurs out there and technology companies, I would look at those for sure, but I think we also have this kind of renewed interest in privacy and what targeting is. And we can do a whole soapbox, if you want, on the evils of free social media and the hyper targeting, I think there needs to be legislation to almost eliminate some of that, because what we've allowed companies to do is extreme content and extreme information can find audiences now, because the audience is basically free, they just [inaudible]. So I think trying to really understand who I share my data with, why I share my data with, and I'm sharing it only for the purpose that I want, is another whole area of technology that we need to focus on. These are the things at least we're working on, that we feel pretty passionate about.Alex:And then in terms of very specific technologies, I think the combination of conversations with location and image recognition, are going to start to be really interesting, right? Because I'm going to be looking at something, I want to verify something, I want to validate something with a conversation and a dialogue. And a lot of it's going to be dependent about where I am. So we're trying to figure out how those intersect in the right way.Stephanie:Yeah. How do you approach it in a way that garners trust from the consumer? Because I feel like there's been a lot of times, even me personally, if I know I'm talking to a computer, I'm like, "Nope, I'm good." Because I've had so many bad experiences, or I've mentioned it a couple times, you call in to like Verizon, it's like... Pretending to type, like... And you're like, "This is so fake, and I don't like this." And then they can't even help me either. So how do you go about it in a way that informs the person that you're not really talking to a person right now, but still keeps them incentivized to want to try and work that method, if they've kind of been burned in the past?Alex:I think there's two topics there. One, both of them, we have pretty strong opinions about. First, an AI should always identify itself as AI and not try to pretend it's a human. I actually think we'll see legislation on that. Because I think it's bad. And I think a couple of things, even their practical issues with it too, you speak differently than you do to human than you do to an AI or a bot. And it's better if you know for everybody, it's actually better even for the AI builder to know that you know because the model is going to be different, interestingly. So there's actually a real practical reason. But I think there's a lot of ethical reasons, is I should know who I'm speaking to, and what I'm speaking to. That's one.Alex:Two, I think that the gatekeepers, the Facebooks of the world, that want to kind of screen everyone and operate as these Uber, Uber marketplaces that they control the traffic flow, I think we as consumers are going to start to have very negative... I mean, we've started in terms of perception. But I think there's going to be a continued backlash on that. And I think you want to know that if you're into dealing with Verizon, you want to deal with Verizon, you want to deal with this company, you want to deal directly with that company. So, again, we feel really strongly about that, we don't sell data, we work on behalf of the brand, there's no targeting, there's no selling data, there's no advertising.Alex:So I think we're going to see a return to kind of truer commercial relationships. Now, we've benefited, we've gotten all this free stuff by selling our behaviors, we don't sell our data, by the way, we sell our behaviors, right? We sell behavioral changes to Facebooks and Googles of the world. And I think we're going to stop doing that. And I think we have to stop, we have to pay for the things that would give us value, and then we know what we're paying for and we understand how our data is going to be used. And I think that's really, really important. And I think we're going to see a shift over the next year or two, for sure. For sure, in terms of what people want.Stephanie:Yeah, so a lot of brands are probably hearing this and are nervous because of all the changes that are happening with Facebook and privacy rules. And many of them have been very reliant on search ads and Facebook. So what do you see customer acquisition looking like if you kind of can't rely or maybe shouldn't rely on those channels, and now people are maybe opting out of sharing all their data, even though it's still pretty hard to opt out. It's like, you either accept it or [crosstalk] look at a website. Like, "Okay, I guess I'll just accept." But how do you see it working for brands where it's like, "Well, most of my traffic was coming from Facebook. And now that's not really the world we're going to be living in." Is that kind of targeting and traffic and customer acquisition?Alex:Yeah, I mean, there's still going to be these aggregate places, I think they're not going to be eliminated. So our view is moving from a stream and target the stuff at me to enabling people to express their desires, their intents. And then businesses honestly, basically, applying for, "Hey, here's something that based on what you've asked for, we may have." And so I think the user acquisition, I don't have the answer to, if I did, I'd probably start that company, or we would be doing it here at LivePerson, but I think that there will be kind of a flipping the model on its head a bit, right?Alex:So rather than this idea of, I can have some type of content, because I think the ills that we've seen have come from this model, I can have some kind of content, I want to get 50,000 people for a very, very, very low cost, I can go and target those 50,000 people, who don't know about me and who I think have a proclivity to me, and I can go get them. So that was good for small business in some ways, right?Stephanie:Yeah.Alex:You can actually build businesses online. It's bad for lots of other reasons. It's also as a consumer, that you're being introduced to something that... Like the whole serendipity introduction is neat when you're on Etsy, because you know what it is [inaudible], it's not neat when it could be anything. So I think we're going to start to ask consumers to express their needs, and like, what do you want? What are you looking for? Can you define kind of your ecosystem of things that you like and appreciate? And then we're going to ask your permission to actually bring others too. And you're going to set standards, like, "I really only want to hear from companies that have certain social stances, or I only want to hear from companies that have certain environmental stances."Alex:So I think it's really all about empowering the consumer to kind of define, it's a little more work, and I think that's the thing that's going to be interesting to see. Because I think we as consumers have gotten very lazy, it's just like, "I want to scroll and you're going to send me stuff." I think we're going to have to be asking consumers for a little bit more work to define those things and tell us more, so that we can give them things that are much more open, honest and transparent.n again, I don't know what the format it's going to look like, right now-Stephanie:I'm thinking of a whole new browser right now. Just need a whole new browser that operates in that way, because right now it's like, where do you get all those ads and everything? It's from your own Chrome, you're on Safari. But it seems like you need a whole new world for it to operate in that way.Alex:So we're actually experimenting with, call it a messenger, but I wouldn't kind of categorize it that way, that it is intent driven. So you define, I'm looking for X, Y and Z, almost think of the kind of anti Alexa in some ways where it's not just this transactional thing, I want to play this music and turn this thing on, it's much more, I'm looking for this, I need this. And you understand the ecosystem of services and providers that actually can come together, all permission based, all about transparency. Early days, kind of experimenting and thinking it through, and talking to a lot of partners and companies also, because I don't think we're alone. I think many, many folks think there needs to be a change here, and we need to figure it out together.Stephanie:Yep. So we've had a debate on the show a couple of times about this whole trend of shopping on the edge, which to me seems like kind of where you guys are headed up, like being able to have conversations kind of wherever you are. How are you thinking about where people are shopping now? Do you see it moving to being on Instagram, being within Facebook Messenger, being on Tik Tok and being able to have those conversations there from the brand and selling on those platforms, and less about driving directly to one single website, or just on Amazon?Alex:So I do think this idea of the destination starts to fade. I do think that brands will be able to speak to you wherever you are, right? Again, I think it needs to be permission based. I think it needs to be based on your intent. But I do think brand... It's funny. I mean, the idea that you don't have a website sounds insane, right? If you're a company, but what was a website 20 years ago? Nobody had a website really. The brand found you where you were, you saw the store, you looked in different magazines, you saw them on different television channels advertise. It was a much more organic process.Alex:And these gatekeepers have become very, very dominant. And again, I think if that changes where we're not willing to give away our behaviors anymore, or sell our behaviors anymore, then I do think you'll start to see brands engage in ways across all the places you live and breathe. Again, should be permission based, for sure. So I do think this shopping on the edge is kind of funny because isn't that where we all did years ago?Stephanie:Yeah, but now we're back. In the digital world though.Alex:Exactly. But that's where we're going to... The Fourth Industrial Revolution kind of back again is like, I think all these things start to blend together and we don't want, we don't want these kind of singular locations and gatekeepers, I think we're going to start to see different properties have different purposes based on what we're in the mood for, what we need. It's interesting, I think the biggest thing that I would leave you with, and leave listeners to, is digital was convenient. It is now a necessity. There's not more meaningful things that can shape change in terms of the format of an experience and the business models. And I don't think we're going to go back, I don't think we're going to go back to what was before, there's going to be something new, and that [inaudible] is what's really going to drive a lot of it. So I think you're going to have to as a brand be where people are.Stephanie:Yeah, which sounds chaotic for me.Alex:And this idea that people are... It sounds chaotic, but I actually think it democratizes things, I actually think it means that we can eliminate some of these gatekeepers who make billions and billions of dollars on our behaviors, which I think would be a good thing in the world.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have 30 seconds or less to answer. Are you ready, Alex?Alex:Sure.Stephanie:All right. First one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Alex:So I'm sorry to repeat, but the fact that digital is now a necessity, I think is going to have one of the biggest impacts, for sure.Stephanie:That's all right. You're allowed to repeat on this show. You can do whatever you want. Let's see, what is something that you believe that many people don't agree with you on?Alex:I'm hopeful. I do a lot of these podcasts, I get a lot of scary questions. I don't go there, you're not going to get me there. I think-Stephanie:[crosstalk]Alex:No. No, you didn't. You didn't. This has been fun and positive, which is great. I really enjoyed it. I'm hopeful about the future, I actually think AI is going to be a powerful tool of change, positive change. I don't think it's going to kill everyone's jobs. I actually think we're going to find new ways to make it augment and enhance us in ways we don't even expect. So I guess in the AI space, in Big Tech space, I spend a lot of time talking, I hear a lot of fear and the sky is falling. And I guess I don't think that way. I think I'm pretty uplifted and positive about what the future is to come.Stephanie:I love that. I'm on the same page. Normally-Alex:Good, yeah, I can get that.Stephanie:... [crosstalk] all that stuff. Yeah, you can get us on a space. What's one thing you don't understand today that you wish you did?Alex:I don't understand, and I think about it all the time and debate it all the time, and I'm not going to go all political on you, I don't understand the device of this right now, that we can't find ways to communicate and talk and debate real issues to find solutions. We like to divide. And I'm kind of confused by it, to be honest.Stephanie:Do you ever just look back at your news and media days and be like, "That's the stem of it, a lot of it." Like the targeting and the way articles are written. Oh, man.Alex:Yeah, I don't know. I think it's easy to go blame the media. I'm not saying you're doing that. I don't know. I don't know. Are we at peak Western civilization and there's always a crest in your fall? Maybe, that could be it. And I'm part of that problem, probably. I don't know. But I'm confused by it. It's something- [crosstalk]Stephanie:I'd like to see that change. That would be nice to see, [inaudible] everyone just come together in love, like the yellow debate, in a friendly manner. That would be nice.Alex:Yeah. And I think we'll get through it. So I am still positive about the future, I think. But I'm confused by the current state of it.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Same. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about? And who would your first guest be?Alex:If I were to have a podcast, it would probably be a little bit far from tech. It would be about how we bring magic back into our lives.Stephanie:Oh, I like that.Alex:Yes.Stephanie:You need the Alex Spinelli show.Alex:A little journey I'm on. Yeah, the little journey I'm on. I started going to Burning Man a number of years ago, and there's just an infectiousness of [inaudible] in wonder and magic and art, and dancing in the desert, into your life. And I think more people need to dance in the desert at sunrise.Stephanie:I love that. That's great. All right. And then the last thing, what's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Alex:The nicest thing anyone's ever done for me. I have a pretty amazing group of friends and family, so I got a lot of nice things done for me.Stephanie:You're a lucky dude.Alex:I am lucky. I really do appreciate it. I think my wife marrying me is probably the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me. It changed my life and it's been wonderful.Stephanie:Go her.Alex:She's amazing.Stephanie:We've had a couple of guys say that on the show, which is so sweet. I'm always like, "I hope your wife listens to this then."Alex:I'm lucky. She's amazing.Stephanie:That's awesome. Well, Alex, it's been such a pleasure having you on. Yeah, I love the conversation. Where can people find out more about you and LivePerson?Alex:Yeah, I think you start on liveperson.com. And there's plenty on me on LinkedIn and our various social media. So I look forward to it.Stephanie:That sounds great. Thanks so much.Alex:Yeah. You got it. Thank you.

On this week's Stack podcast, we've got reviews for: The Scumbag #1 Image Comics Written by Rick Remender Art by Lewis Larosa Fantastic Four #25 Marvel Written by Dan Slott Art by R.B. Silva, Paco Medina and Will Robson Madam Satan #1 Archie Comics Story by Eliot Rahal Art by Julius Ohta Iron Man #2 Marvel Written by Christopher Cantwell Art by Cafu Stillwater #2 Image Comics Written by Chip Zdarsky Art by Ramón K. Perez Batman #101 DC Comics Written by James Tynion IV Art by Guillem March Black Magick #15 Image Comics Written by Greg Rucka Art by Nicola Scott Werewolf By Night #1 Marvel Written by Taboo & B. Earl Art by Scot Eaton Big Girls #3 Image Comics Story and art by Jason Howard Batman: White Knight Presents: Harley Quinn #1 DC Comics Story by Katana Collins and Sean Murphy Dune: House Atreides #1 BOOM! Studios Written by Brian Herbert & Kevin J. Anderson Illustrated by Dev Pramanik Dark Nights: Death Metal Robin King 1 DC Comics Written by Peter J. Tomasi, Tony Patrick Art by Riley Rossmo, Daniel Sampere Something is Killing the Children #11 BOOM! Studios Written by James Tynion IV Illustrated by Werther Dell'edera Excalibur #13 Marvel Written by Tini Howard Art by R.B. Silva X-Men #13 Marvel Written by Jonathan Hickman Art by Mahmud Asrar Faithless II #5 BOOM! Studios Written by Brian Azzarello Art by Maria Llovet Nightwing #75 DC Comics Written by Dan Jurgens Art by Travis Moore and Ronan Cliquet SUBSCRIBE ON RSS, ITUNES, ANDROID, SPOTIFY, STITCHER OR THE APP OF YOUR CHOICE. FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, AND FACEBOOK. SUPPORT OUR SHOWS ON PATREON. This episode is sponsored by Helstrom, now on Hulu. Full Episode Transcript: Alex:                 What's up y'all? Welcome to The Stack. I'm Alex. Justin:              I'm Justin. Pete:                I'm Pete. Alex:                 And on The Stack, we talk about a bunch of books that have come out this week. Pete:                Do we? Alex:                 And we're going to kick it off … I think this is a big deal. This isn't normally the sort of thing that we would kick off the show with. Usually it's some Marvel or DC book or whatever, I mean, who even cares? Justin:              Okay, weird voice. Alex:                 Weird way to put it. But we're going to talk about The Scumbag number one from Image Comics written by Rick Remender, art by Lewis LaRosa. The reason I think that should go first is a new Rick Remender book is a big deal. We've been following his writing pretty much since the beginning and every book out is an event, so it's worth putting this right upfront at the top of the show. Reading this book I know this is something that Pete just loves a ton. He's very into, he's very excited about. The concept of the book though, before we get into Pete's feelings about it, I can see his head already nodding, yes, yes, give me more. Justin:              Yes, yes, I love this. Alex:                 Is what if the worst person in the world was responsible for the fate of the world. That's essentially what it is to the point where they essentially say that line at the end of the book. And in fact we do meet the worst person in the world who ends up in the situation. Pete:                That's the thing, they say the worst person in the world, it's just like kind of a slacker druggie guy. It's not like he's a fucking head of the KKK or fucking, you know what I mean? A murderer. He's like- Justin:              Yeah. I guess it's more, to say the worst, I understand what you're saying, but definitely the most down and out. Pete:                Right. But what- Justin:              He has full on diarrhea. Pete:                Sure. Yeah. Who doesn't? The thing is it's like brand new Rick Remender book. You ready to get your fucking heartbroken. This guy writes in such a way that pulls you in, gets you sucked into this amazing world, and then always breaks your fucking heart. I'm scared. I'm scared about this book. Justin:              But that's what I love, what I love about Rick Remender books. And it has been a long time since he launched a new one. We've been reading Low. We've been reading Black Science for a long time. And those books are- Alex:                 Deadly Class. Justin:              Deadly Class of course ongoing. Pete:                Yeah, Deadly Class. Justin:              But these other books are sort of wrapping up. Deadly Class feels like it's going to keep going for a bit longer. And to have a new book is sort of precious. And what I love about it is he takes extreme premises and pushes them. And what he always does is on the art side brings in truly evocative artists. And in this case, it is the same thing. When he says it's the worst person in the world, we see it in like, I would call this hyper realistic color and line. And it's great. It's great. It's really smart of him to not shy away from these truly disgusting things, if the point of the book is this person is at his lowest and he has to become a world changing person. Alex:                 Or maybe it won't, I don't know. Justin:              Yeah. Pete:                Starting a book with a Charles Bukowski quote is just a fantastic way to start something that's this kind of mayhem, or it's just about a drunken dude who does a lot of drugs and shit, that's the perfect thing. But man, just seeing a guy doing drugs and shitting on the streets really makes me miss New York city, you know what I mean? Like back in the eighties and nineties, the real New York, you know what I'm talking about? Justin:              Yeah, you were the mayor of New York in the mid eighties. Pete:                Oh yeah, man. Just love doing drugs in the street, shitting anywhere you wanted, those were the days. Justin:              You were a very controversial mayor [crosstalk 00:03:59]. Alex:                 Yeah. Before Giuliani took it all away. I mean, come on. Where's that guy now? What's he doing? Justin:              Yeah, it is great. It is truly crazy to think of a time when everyone was like Giuliani, what a hero. And now truly, and not to get … it's not at all political, but he is looked upon as a legit Nosferatu style monster. There are so many Twitter memes of him being like, “Look, his hands dead.” Or look, here's [crosstalk 00:04:28]. Alex:                 He's such a sad sack. That's the thing that's such a bummer about it, is he went from I'm the guy that's going to clean up New York, this is very controversial too. He did some sort of figures like, I'm going to reveal information and he taped a video, and he opens up this folder and there's nothing in the folder. And he's just like, “Well, there's evidence that I have here,” and there's nothing in there, it's just sad. That's not the point of this book, let's get back to The Scumbag thing. The thing about- Justin:              Wait, let me just say one more thing on that. I do think this book spins out of the era we're in. I think it's about a person who is not ready to be elevated to a position of power who is in that position of power, which I feel like is it common on our time both Trump in and everything around our current political situation where it's like, oh, these people shouldn't be in charge of stuff like this. This book feels very timely to me. Alex:                 I agree. The thing that I wanted to get back to you though, that Pete was saying about the worst person in the world is it's not racist, murderer or anything like that. It's nails on chalkboard worst, which I think they make pretty clear through the writing, where it's the sort of guy who within seconds of meeting him you're like, “Oh God, fuck this guy. This is the worst. Oh God, no.” Pete:                The guy at the party's looking to steal beers that aren't being looked at. You know what I mean, like oh. Alex:                 That's great. The specificity going on there is so clear to the point where it builds to very graphicallY as we were talking about him shitting himself on the street, which is horrifying and gross. And mind you, not the first time Rick Remender has written a person on drugs diarrhea scene, that was way back in Deadly Class. Classic scene in deadly class. Pete:                Classic, he loves a good shitting story, you know what I mean? Alex:                 Yeah. Justin:              Let me throw this out as well to go back into early Remender, this book sort of reminds me a little bit of Fear Agent, and then it is a person who is super down and out having to maybe elevate themselves. Alex:                 What I'm really interested in is reading the second issue of this book, because if Rick Remender has showed us anything, it's he always has a very clear concept in the first issue that he blows it and save the out of proportion by the second issue. And I don't know how they're going to do that yet, but I'm excited to find out. Justin:              A 100% true. Alex:                 Yeah. But great to view. Justin:              Great to view. Pete:                It's fun to see a new book that he's working on. I'm very excited to see where this goes. Yeah, crazy first issue, fantastic art, definitely check it out. Alex:                 Moving on to Fantastic Four number 25 from Marvel written by Dan Slott with art by R.B. Silver, Paco Medina and Will Robson. This I believe is the beginning of the status quo change that Dan teased back when he was on the live show with us chatting about this book. This is kind of a big deal. There's a lot of stuff that goes down in this book as we celebrate this mini anniversary of the Fantastic Four. What'd you think about the issue? Pete:                46 pages. This to me is a great Fantastic Four story. You get this kind of shit goes down, only the Fantastic Four can save the day. Then what's nice about it is you've got Reed and Sue talking a little bit about the holes in their marriage about how they lied to each other a little bit. I'm hoping that moving forward, their relationship can get a little bit better because I'm sick of the classic, Sue Storm does so much more for the family than Reed does, and he's just constantly busy and can't be bothered. I think this was a really cool story, great use to the whole family. I'm very excited, even cool Watcher stuff, which you don't normally kind of get. Alex:                 Oh, no, people are always like, “That Watcher is very cool.” Pete:                No, but like also, just this whole thing of like, we're the Watcher and we've watched all these amazing events happen in Marvel whether it's through comics or TV or movies, but just these splash pages like, oh yeah, I remember that. Oh, that was cool. Hey, cosmic Ghost Rider got a shout out. Justin:              Well, see, I would take some issue with your statement Pete, because I think what Dan Slott is so great at and why he's such a great match for the Fantastic Four, is his whole thing is everything old is new again, or everything new is old again, either way [crosstalk 00:09:10]. Pete:                Which one us it? Justin:              It's sort of both, because what he does here is he's like, “Yes, Reed and Sue aren't getting along because Reed has a secret from Sue.” But what's great about this issue is Sue also has a secret from Reed, and she has her own life and she's doing her own thing. And so they get to meet on equal ground. Pete:                Great. Justin:              The thing is it's [inaudible 00:09:30] time. I'm going to be a wreck and shit, but then he's like, “Oh, I have actually a family at home I have to get back to at the same time.” Doctor Doom is still a villain, but he's actually the Doctor Doom, is the Doctor Doom read Richard's relationship from the very beginning of the comic where they're contemporaries. And even though they are wildly super-powered and they're meeting here as like, “Oh, you were keeping a little secret from me.” He's like, “Oh, well, yeah I was, figure it out.” And they're like, “Well, let's figure it out together.” It's just Dan Slott is just a tactician when it comes to picking a part with a fine tweezers, these Marvel legends and finding a new way to reconfigure the stories by just slightly tweaking little bits and pieces. Pete:                I did want to, while we're talking about Doom, Doom is one of my favorite villains and Dan Slott did a great job of the way Doom just acknowledges the fact that Sue Storm was in the room before she revealed herself was such a bad-ass Doom moment. Dan Slott is just killing it on this book. Alex:                 Yeah. This is a really fun issue, like you're talking about, bunch of fun teases for the future, a new setup of new status quo for the team, as well as certain members of the team, as well as the Watcher and other things, just a great package. I had a blast reading this issue. Moving on to Chilling- Justin:              Justin loves good packages. Alex:                 Moving onto Chilling Adventures of Sabrina Presents Madam Satan number one from Archie Comics story by Eliot Rahal, art by Julius Ohta. We talked about this on the live show a little bit, but this exists in a weird mix of continuity between the comic books and the TV show, not necessarily contradicting either, but not existing like this is between season one and season two of Sabrina, or part one and part two or part three and part four or anything like that. It just kind of is an about Madam Satan. The real standout of this issue to me is Julius Ohta's art, which does a great job of channeling Robert Hack from the original series, but finding a different way around it. What'd you think Pete? Pete:                Yeah. I mean, because when you think about it, the only person who would want to be a principal at a high school is somebody who is in hell, you know what I mean? Someone who wants to bring hell to the people. So to me, this made a lot of sense like, “Oh yeah, the queen of hell would love to be a principal at a high school. That's the perfect job for them.” And this is a real fun kind of set up. Madam Satan is glorious in the Sabrina TV show. And it's nice to see this character kind of thrive in this comic as well. Justin:              This does a good job of being sort of the TV show, but hearkening back to the comics, it originally inspired what went on to become the Sabrina TV show, like the afterlife with Archie and the Sabrina comic that Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa then developed into the show. It's great. And to your point, Alex, the art is just amazing throughout. Alex:                 Good stuff. Very impressive. Next step, Iron Man number two from Marvel written by Christopher Cantwell, art by Cafu. When we talked about the first issue of this book, I think we were pleasantly surprised by the change in direction here as Iron Man is going back to basics. Here we get a little bit more on that, veering on the side of he cut us a death wish a little bit, or at least injure himself, which as he's trying to move back to be a hero. But I got to say, I'm loving this take. I just think it's so refreshing to see a Tony Stark who is just being a hero and going on fights and fighting people and being a human being for a change. It's great. Justin:              I agree. This felt like a comic that I would have read back when I was in high school. It is just iron man dealing with shit. Of course he's fighting Absorbing Man. The ultimate early run of a series villain is Absorbing Man. And I love the guest stars throughout and Ironman just sacrificing himself, like Cardiac shows up, another, it's a Spider-Man villain technically who is just sort of Iron Manny in a lot of ways. And this felt like just some good classic fun. Pete:                Yeah. It was fun to see Hellcat. Yeah, it's all right, it's okay. Justin:              Pete, you do not like in Iron Man? Pete:                No. I mean, this comic has gone through so much stuff and it's just crazy. Like, okay, great, it's back to Tony Stark, but I don't know, cool. Alex:                 Well, what do you want it to be then? Pete:                I want, it was just weird because it's like, oh, Tony Stark's not Iron Man anymore. Okay, cool. And there was this really cool character who's trying to take on the mantle, but then was like, “No, we're going to go back to Tony Stark.” And then it's like, “Okay, but why?” And then it's just like, “Oh, it's back to basic Tony Stark.” Alex:                 So you're upset that it's not Riri is what you're saying. Pete:                I liked Riri. I liked the possibility of new stories. I just think that Iron Man has done a lot of amazing things, so let's see something amazing. You know what I mean? Let's see why we're seeing Iron Man again instead of something new. Alex:                 All right. Fair enough. Next up, Stillwater number two from Image Comics written by Chip Zdarsky, art by Ramon K. Perez. We talked about the first issue of this as well, liked it quite a bit. A guy goes on a road trip, ends up in a town where nobody ever dies. His friend gets killed outside the town, and it turns out at the end of the first issue that he may actually be a natural born resident of the village. We find out many more F'd up things about the town in this issue. What did you think about this? And also given that it drew some comparisons to Revival- Pete:                Controversial. Alex:                 Controversial comparisons to Revival the Tim Seeley series that had kind of a similar premise, at least at the start. Do you feel like it's veering off enough at this point? Justin:              It's totally quite different, I would say. I don't want to get into like, is it wrong to have a book this close premise wise? Because I enjoyed reading this, the first and second issue. It feels like at the end of this issue, we're setting up sort of what the deal is going to be. This guy is the third person who's been invited into the town. Clearly we're going to meet these other two people and what that means, his relationship to his mother and how the town works. All of that is fun. I'm excited to get into that. Revival felt like very different tonally. It was about people who with established relationships and how they were sort of dealing with this new status quo. I think to me it's different enough to exist separately. Alex:                 Also they feel like different types of horror, right? As Tim Seeley is very good at, it's a little more slasher horror, it's a little more graphic horror, a little more fun horror. This is more aligned with The Wicker Man I think that sort of, or mid summer, that sort of thing. Justin:              Oh, that's a good comparison, yes. Alex:                 So yeah, I agree. I do think they're different. There's certainly a danger there that they're going to weave together too much. But right now I think they can both exist and that's okay. Pete:                I would just like to say, as someone who's lived in a big city for a really long time, this is why I don't like the small towns, they scare the shit out of me. I love this thing of playing with the creepiness of a small town and all these people know each other and you're the outsider kind of coming in. I think that's a great idea to start a story. And I think sometimes when writers are … we're all pulling from the same pool. Sometimes ideas might overlap. You'd like to give somebody the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully it's not a rip off. But I do not know. Pete:                But as far as this is concerned, the little kid in the beginning was so fucking creepy with that wolf, I was scared shitless, and I'm interested to see where this goes. And it's really fun this idea of if people can die, then yeah, people would just kind of like loosey goosey shoot each other because there's going to be no damage. Justin:              Loosey goosey. Pete:                But it is kind of crazy right now to see a cop fucking just shooting first, and then talking later, it's kind of a hits and not fun chord right now. Justin:              Yeah. It's not crazy to see that, it happens a lot in this world. Pete, real quick, when you said you're scared shitless, could you give us just a sort of scale, a power ranking on the different types of scared you are, just so I know what you mean when you say that. Pete:                Well, they're scared like, oh, my stomach hurts a little bit, you know what I mean? And then there's like- Justin:              Your stomach hurts a little. Pete:                Yeah. And then there's like- Justin:              Like I ate too much candy. Pete:                Yeah. You got like- Justin:              So like you're scared candy. Let's call it that. Pete:                Okay. Yeah. And then scared shitless is like you're in real trouble. Alex:                 Oh, so there's two parts to the scale? Pete:                Yeah. Justin:              Interesting. Alex:                 [crosstalk 00:18:58] and then I have no shit in me whatsoever. Pete:                Yeah, let's skip the [crosstalk 00:19:03]. Justin:              Let me just also ask, quick follow-Up on that. When you say you're scared shitless, that means you've shit everything out. You're fully [crosstalk 00:19:09]. Pete:                Yeah, empty on the streets side. Justin:              You're on the streets comeback style diarrhea. Pete:                Right. Justin:              Or is it, are you full of shit and you just can't get it out? Pete:                No, no. Yeah, you're the scumbag of the street who's empty [crosstalk 00:19:23]. Alex:                 But you're 100% clean at this point. You're just- Pete:                Yeah. I'm an empty vessel. Alex:                 You're an empty vessel. Justin:              So you read this comic and you fully just rooster tailed yourself. Pete:                Yeah, exactly. Justin:              While you're reading it. I got you. Okay, great. Alex:                 [crosstalk 00:19:39]. I've been going back to doing the transcripts of the episodes and I- Justin:              Don't do that- Alex:                 [crosstalk 00:19:44], so I'll try to pull our quotes from each of the episodes and put it out there. The hope of getting maybe some pull quotes or something like that on a book. I think we could say Stillwater, it'll clear the shit out of you. Justin:              Yeah, you'll go full rooster tail. Pete:                Pull your own quotes Zalbs. Justin:              You go full rooster tail for this book. Alex:                 Batman 101 from DC Comics written by James Tynion IV, art by Guillem March. This is following right up on the Joker war as Batman grapples with the knowledge that Joker might've been right. And he has to in fact change, he's got to up his game. Justin:              Game. Pete:                Game. Alex:                 As he talks to Catwoman about it. Pete, I'm sure you have some feelings about this because spoiler, Catwoman and Batman decide to be on a break for a year. What'd you think about that? Pete:                Yeah. I mean, I liked the kiss. I thought the kiss gave us hope. But the old taking a break is just, it's a heartbreaking, don't a break guys, say yes to love. Justin:              Don't take a break. Pete:                Don't take a break from love. Justin:              Friends, in the TV show Friends, famous romantic comedy. Alex:                 We were on a break. Pete:                Yeah. Justin:              Alex, let me ask you, are you hyping up that phrase or are you doing a Ross impression? Alex:                 I think I'm doing- Pete:                Ross, it was Ross. Alex:                 No. Yeah, I mean I'm doing Ross, but I think it's one of the characters from Seinfeld being like Jerry. Justin:              You mean Jerry Seinfeld. Alex:                 Yeah. No, I think Jerry [crosstalk 00:21:19]. Jerry Seinfeld says like, “Jerry.” He's like a poker bot. Jerry. Justin:              It's hard for me to tell what you're talking about. I love Guillem March's art. Alex:                 Yes. Justin:              And especially in issues focusing on not just Batman, but the bat family, always great to see. I will say, and this is being picky, but Grifter still doesn't sit with me. Alex:                 What's deal is that? Pete:                You don't like a billowy mask? Justin:              I'm fine with the billowy mask. I mean I wear a cloth mask for when I go out and it does hang a little low in a Grifter. Alex:                 Can I, not to interrupt your flow here, but when you're wearing that mask out, do you take it and then pull it up to your forehead? Justin:              Yes, a 100%. Alex:                 Okay. Justin:              And it really, it blows with little wrinkles in it just like Grifters does. No, it's just something like I still, the Wildstorm universe of it all. I'm just like, “This guy doesn't quite fit with these characters to me.” Alex:                 I do, I agree with you on Grifter, never quite got him, don't like the mask. But I do like what James Tynion is setting up here with Batman vs Grifter, and this greater mystery of who Grifter works for. That seems like that's something that potentially is going to tie in going further forward, and that's a fun place for it to go. Batman versus the Wildstorm universe, great, all in on that. Justin:              Also wildcats. Pete:                Old school, that Clownhunter got a shout out in this book. Alex:                 You love that guy. [crosstalk 00:23:02]. Justin:              Alex, we talked about this on the live show, but as someone who's married to a clown, are you worried? Alex:                 Definitely. We added an extra lock to the door, because my wife has been doing that thing where she pulls the bed sheets up to her neck and says, “Oh, I'm scare, scare, scare, scared.” Justin:              Yes. Because as you know, your wife is modeled on Charlie's grandparents and [inaudible 00:23:27]. Alex:                 Yes, exactly. We sleep with another couple in our bed. All right. Black Magick number 15 from Image Comics written by Greg Rucka and art by Nicholas Scott. Oh, it's a great issue every single time. Here we're getting the fallout of the last couple of the issues as our main character deals with her new burgeoning relationship with a fellow cop. While in the background, I think for the first time we see hell or something like that. Justin:              Yeah. She's getting crazy in the background. Alex:                 Yes. Justin:              This comic was very sort of austere for so long about the witchyness of this of it. And now we're fully in witch world, which I love. Pete:                A lot of pointy kind of pyramid looking things in that aisle. Alex:                 Great. Thank you, Pete. We'll use that one for the pull quote for this issue. Nicholas Scott art as usual is the hero here. It's just absolutely gorgeous. But I love the sort of almost taking a break issue in a way, there's been so much harrowing, terrifying stuff. Every issue to take some time here and really deal with the relationships, the characters, if I was really nice. Justin:              Yeah, I agree. And the art, it feels like it gets better. There's just something about, it's so detailed, but it keeps getting, I guess maybe cleaner is the right word. It's great. How do you feel about the French computer? You don't see French computers very often- Alex:                 No, not usually. Justin:              … except in France. Alex:                 No. Even in France, they still use English. Everybody's like, “I can not read this.” Pete:                I mean, I'm a little disappointed that she's not listening to her cat more. If you have a magical cat, I feel like you should pay attention and listen to it, especially when it knows more things than you. And that's always frustrating when a character isn't listening to people they should be listening to. Justin:              As a new cat owner, Pete, is your cat magical? And if so, what is that cat saying to you? Pete:                Well, I'll tell you what, she does have one of those mystical eye things like the Prince album over her left eye, which kind of freaks me out. And I do think that cats can see into different realms and stuff. So yeah, the cat freaks me the fuck out. Justin:              Nice. That sounds like a nightmare to deal with every day. Every day you wake up and you're like, you look at your cat and you're rooster tailing, because you're scared shitless. Pete:                That's right. That's how I start my day. Justin:              Wow. Alex:                 God. From day to night, let's talk about Werewolf by Night, number one for Marvel Comics written by Taboo and B. Earl, art by Scot Eaton. Pete:                Oh, king of the transition. Alex:                 Here is another character that I'd never quite gotten just based on the name. And they try very hard to explain it to this book, by the idea of like, I'm a werewolf, but by night. It's like, “Well, most werewolves are by night, I think.” Justin:              But I take it the other way, I think the name is sort of saying, “Not just a werewolf where it's once a month, that's a werewolf by all nights.” Because if the character was named like werewolf normal, werewolf monthly, that's less fun. Alex:                 It does come out monthly, so there is that. But on the other hand, he turns back into a human in this very first issue where he's like, “I'm a werewolf by night.” Well, I'm a human, it's still nighttime.” Justin:              I say a lot I'm a human by night. And they're like, “What do you mean?” Alex:                 I thought this book was okay. It was honestly frustrating to be that the part that was fun and exciting was the last page of the book, that to me without getting spoilers unless we want to, that to me felt like, okay, this is the part you needed to put at the front of the book instead of all the setup that I didn't necessarily care about personally. Justin:              Well, let me say, I like this I guess more than you it seems, because it feels like it's a Marvel Comics book, but it feels like this could be an Image Comics book. It establishes a world around this character that isn't relying on other superhero, other Marvel universe things. And I like the characters a lot. And we talked about this on the show with Colin Bond and whatnot, the horror infiltration into superhero comics I've been really enjoying. Pete:                Yeah. I mean, I thought the reveal was fun, but I thought the more fun was with the granny pressuring those two to start a family, I thought that was really fun. Justin:              Your favorite part of this comic was the grandmother pressing them to have children? Pete:                Yeah. Come on, mommy's a werewolf, fuck it. But I think that also this was like- Alex:                 How's your relationship going, Pete? Pete:                Good man. It's going good. Thanks for asking. Alex:                 Welcome. Pete:                But I think that this book is kind of over the top, whatever. I just thought the kind of the real down to earth moments were kind of nice. And also you never know, man, the guy who cleans the toilets could be a werewolf, the person who collects the recycling, it could be a mummy. You got to be nice to people, because you don't know what their superpower is. Justin:              I think that every day. I'm like this- Alex:                 It would make sense if they switch jobs, honestly. Because I feel like the mummy could just take some of that wrapping and refill the toilet paper rolls. Pete:                Oh, wow. Alex:                 Yeah. Justin:              Honestly, every time I … whenever I go out in New York city, I'm always like, “Are you a mummy?” Alex:                 Let's move on and talk about Big Girls number three from Image Comic story, and art by Jason Howard. I think we've got back and forth a little bit about these issues. Generally, Jason Howard's art is great. This takes place in a world where large women and large men are fighting. The men are monsters, are they? And the women are not monsters, or are they? And they're fighting and the ruins left to the world. Find out a lot more about it, this issue that really mixes things up. I thought an interesting way, definitely confuses the metaphor perhaps a little bit, but certainly makes the story that we're following more fascinating. What did you guys take away from it? Pete:                Oh, go ahead. Justin:              You go. Pete:                I completely agree. I'm very happy with this kind of new development in this issue where the men aren't just total D bags. I kind of like the reveal in this issue, gives things a little bit more complication. I'm very excited to see how this moves forward and what the kind of reveals are going to be. Yeah, the art's the real hero of this book, this is becoming a very interesting book and I'm getting into it more and more with each issue. Justin:              Yeah. This book feels like an episode of The Outer Limits. Did you guys ever watch that when you were younger? Where it was like, it took a premise, a sci-fi premise and it just played it up and then there's a twist and then you landed the ending. And so I definitely liked this progression. I think the art is really nice. It reminds me of Ryan Ollie in a lot of ways. Alex:                 Jason Howard did … what was the wolf thing that Robert Kirkman did? Right, I think. Justin:              Oh, yes. Alex:                 Science Wolf. Science Dog. Justin:              Science Wolf. Science Dog. Alex:                 I think Jason Howard did Science Dog. I've got to look that up while you're talking. Pete:                You should look that up. Alex:                 Yeah. Justin:              Okay, great. So all we have to do while Alex is looking this up is talk. Pete:                Yeah. Let's just do a little soft shoe and kill some time. Justin:              It's not killing time, it's bringing more of our personal lives into the fall. Alex:                 How's your family, Justin? Justin:              Family, good, very good. They're right upstairs. Alex:                 Yeah. Justin:              Yes. Several members of my family were doing laundry over the course of our tapings this evening. And every time washer and dryer finish, they each make a little celebration song. Alex:                 No, I'm sorry. They did Super Dinosaur together, there it is. Pete:                Okay. I thought maybe it was the shark one. Alex:                 How did everything go while I was looking that up? Justin:              Great. We had a totally normal friend conversation. Pete:                Yeah, turns out Justin's washer and dryer, because he's such a fucking big time rich guy, they play celebration songs. He probably had to pay extra for that. Justin:              No, it's definitely not. Pete:                Every time his washer and dryer finishes it's like [inaudible 00:32:15] bright, clean clothes, come out now. Justin:              That's great, that would be great. Alex:                 Man, you should sell that to Whirlpool. Pete:                Yes. Alex:                 Let's move on and talk about Batman: White Knight Presents Harley Quinn, number one from DC Comic story by Katana Collins and Sean Murphy. This is of course spinning off of the White Knight Universe of stories that Sean Murphy has been building up. It's a very different Harley Quinn who is out of the game. Batman is in jail. The Joker is dead. She's on her own. But she gets sucked back into it by a Joker want to be, or is it the Joker himself? What'd you guys think about this book? Pete:                Well, I mean, first off the art's amazeballs. This kind of a newer take, a fresh take on the old [inaudible 00:33:06]. You get a flashback to her and Jack meeting and I think it's interesting. I'm not upset at the changes. I think it's a fun last page. I kind of want to work alone and by alone, I mean, me and my two hyenas. I'm on board, I'm interested to see where this goes. I think we need more Harley Quinn. I don't think there's enough of Harley Quinn, we got to get more. Alex:                 I will say, before you get into anything, Justin, I think we already have our pull quote for this, it's I'm not upset at the changes. Justin:              Pete, when you say you need more Harley Quinn, what are you, in life, or in this [crosstalk 00:33:52] features a lot of Harley Quinn. Pete:                Harley Quinn is a very popular character. I don't think DC has caught on yet. They haven't put enough Harley Quinn in books yet. I barely see her, so it'd be nice if they started using her more. Justin:              Well, let me say the White Knights sub universe is interesting to me, because it's a little … I like this book and I like the Harley Quinn in this book. But I'm like, “Oh, we're so far away from the normal, the reality of the DC universe right now.” I'm like, that to me is … it takes me out of it because the book is so far removed from sort of the normal storytelling, the normal continuity I guess. But I have enjoyed these White Knight books, the art is truly amazing. Pete:                That's a real hero there. Justin:              Yeah. I'm curious how much longevity this pocket universe has in the DC universe. Alex:                 Yeah, I agree. Let's move on. Dune: House Atreides, number one written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, illustrated by Dev Pramanik. Oh, this is from Boom Studios, I believe, right? This is- Pete:                Yeah, it's Boom. Alex:                 Thank you. I forgot to write that down. Interestingly, I mean, as we were talking about with the Wonder Woman, 1984 book, a couple of weeks back. This is again a book that was clearly there to tee up the movie that was supposed to come out this year, instead is coming out a full year later. But at the same time, it is riffing off of the book, it's teeing up the movie, it's telling you a little bit more about Dune and the world. What did you think about this? Does this stand on its own, given that the movie is now not coming out for basically a full calendar year? Justin:              Well, I'm curious if some of the scenes here are from the movie. Is this bull fighting scene or space ball or whatever it's called. Is that a scene that we're going to see in this movie, because this made me want to see the movie? Pete:                Really? Justin:              Yes. It made me want to see sort of the more streamlined visually dynamic version of this comic. What this reminded me of though, as I was reading it, is like X of Swords, or 10 of Swords. It reminded me of a version of that where I'm like, “Wait, who are any of these characters?” Alex:                 It definitely, it's a very, it kept jumping around. I mean, granted the books are very expensive. There's a lot of stuff going on. There's a lot of mythology. I thought this looked very nice for what it is to have [inaudible 00:36:29] art is very pretty. And like you were mentioning the gladiator scenes or the bullfighting scenes were very nicely laid out. But I couldn't help but wish while I was reading this, that this was almost more in the European style, that this felt like the sort of thing, if you're going to going to do dune, get like a Mobius to do it, or Mobius light or something like that to give it that says, because it should be weird and off-putting not consistent with current comic books at all. Justin:              Right. Yeah. Especially when the movie is … I mean, we don't know this I guess. But is probably going to be visually stunning and purposefully so. The comic should reflect that a little bit. Alex:                 I agree. Let's move on to another one, Dark Nights: Death Metal, Robin King, number one from DC Comics written by Peter J. Tomasi and Tony Patrick, art by Riley Rossmo and Daniel Sampere. You cannot go wrong with Peter J. Tomasi and Riley Rossmo at all. I mean- Justin:              Great team. Alex:                 … I'm not the hugest fan of the idea of Robin King, who is basically a Bruce Wayne, who's an evil teen who's Robin, but man, this book is killer, just so good. What'd you guys think? Pete:                I mean, just this kind of like universe is just kind of cranking things up to 11 here. It seems like everybody's kind of having fun with the overtopness of it. And again, we get kind of a funeral thing here, but an interesting take where he hears Robin at the funeral that kind of draws him. I think it's … Robin King messing with Animal Man was really intense. Then the blue beetle getting eaten by beetles. I mean, this is just kind of crazy fun over the top shit. I think this kind of event is like a fun, like, “Hey, let's just crank this up and see what happens.” And every book has been kind of art-wise really funnily kind of driven towards these monsters and over the top villain, so why not? Justin:              Why not? I mean, to your point, Alex, this team is so good, and especially in a book where it's just all about hitting different aspects of the DC Universe, like Animal Man, Red Tornado, Blue Beetle, great to see all these characters, just like riding firestorm down and defeating him. Alex:                 Oh yeah, that was messed up. Justin:              It's all great. And I don't know, Robin King isn't someone who I'm like, “God, I can't wait to keep seeing more of this guy.” But I think he is one of the more memorable characters from this event. See of Bruce Wayne's, the Robin King definitely sticks out as one that is more threatening and more interesting. Alex:                 Yeah. I agree. Now from Children Who Are Killing Something to Something is Killing The Children number 11. Pete:                Oh, come on. [crosstalk 00:39:47]. He's been working on this for a week. Alex:                 Written by James Tynion IV, illustrated by Werther Dell'Edera. We're really- Justin:              And just for you guys listening, the way we work is I actually hold up a cue card and Alex reads that down because we workshopped it. Alex:                 I hold it up a cue and Alex … Oh, I'm sorry, that's your line. Justin:              No, that's mine. We work in a classic SML model where it's all handwritten cue cards. Alex:                 Yeah. Fun fact, Justin really great at writing cue cards. Justin:              A 100% right. That's why I'm a line producer. Pete:                Yeah. One of the things that line producers do. Alex:                 In this issue we're continuing, like we talked about almost every issue, there's little bits of information that are eked out every issue, but it still feels so present and so terrifying as our main characters are trying to get away from these monsters who are attacking the town, who are killing the children. But at the same time, the organization she works for is mustering forces of their own, and it seems like we're heading towards a climactic showdown in the next issue, which is all very exciting. Every issue of this is great. Pete:                Yeah. Justin:              And the amount of information we get is very controlled. Every issue of this feels like a scene or two scenes from a movie, as opposed to so many comics where it's so much happening. This feels very just like controlled pacing wise in a way that is very different from other comics. And visually it lets us really just chew these horror images up as we get to see them. Pete:                Yeah. This was intense. I was very happy with the kind of information we finally get about our kind of main character and her kind of relationship a little bit to this organization. Love the kind of dragon guy overseeing things. But it's also crazy in this comic how people are wearing masks, like how we're wearing masks. And so that's kind of freaking me the fuck out a little bit. But man, nothing creepier than a one eyed fucking Teddy bear, man. This book continues to be amazeballs. The art, the story- Justin:              Nothing creepier. Pete:                Nothing creepier. Alex:                 I'll tell you what, maybe they've already done this, but they should make masks based on something that's killing the children. I'd wear one of those, those would be fun. Justin:              That's a great idea. Pete, would you, now if a one eyed teddy bear is scary, what about a two eyed teddy bear? Alex:                 Oh, man. Pete:                One eyed is more scary, man. Alex:                 What about a no eyed teddy bear. Terror. Justin:              I mean a terror bear does sound scary. Alex:                 Let's move onto our X of Swords block Excalibur number 13, written by Tini Howard [crosstalk 00:42:40]. What? Pete:                I was hoping we would save that black for last, but all right, you've got this all- Justin:              No, I like the book we're saving for last, I think we made the right choice. Alex:                 Okay. Written by Tini Howard and art by R.B. Silva. And then we got an X-Men number 13 from Marvel written by Jonathan Hickman, and art by Mahmud Asrar. Unlike the previous months, we're only getting two … Previous weeks, excuse me, we're only getting two issues this week, they're not tied together, they're each their own stories. In Excalibur we find out what's going on with Captain Britain who is now Betsy Braddock, and her siblings as they go to other worlds and tango with other world. And in X-Men number 13, we find out the fate and backstory of apocalypse, two very different stories, but we're really starting to get to the halfway point of this event. What did you think about these, and what do you think about this event so far? Pete:                I really love the ways events started, but I just feel like we're taking too much time with the [inaudible 00:43:37] or getting the sword so they can join the battle. It's like, “Yeah, get your fucking sword so we can get this goddamn fight started.” I'm excited to see how this unfolds. I'm still very much on board, but I feel like they're taking their sweet ass fucking time with each person joining the goddamn fight. Justin:              I mean we got three swords in two issues, that's pretty … the ratio is right there. Alex:                 I will say I love the slow anticipation of building the swords, but every time they get to that scene where everybody is standing in the circle with their swords, it's cool. But I'm also like, how long have they been standing there? Have they been standing there not talking and staring at each other? Pete:                The first person was like, “Jeez, guys, cool sword.” Justin:              I do think, I mean, them all arriving there could have happened over the course of five minutes. It's just the way that comic pacings everyone is doing their own shit on the- Alex:                 No, this has taken weeks. I mean, weeks between comics. Justin:              Now, that's how you're reading it. But I do think everyone could have arrived there one after the other. Alex:                 Otherwise how … This is probably a good thing for our podcast to tackle. But how does the linear progression of time work? Justin:              Well, here's the thing, it moves forward second by second, minute by minute, unless you go timeout, and then time stops and you can do whatever you want for a brief amount of time. Alex:                 You can say what's going on. Pete:                I'm glad you're talking about timeouts. Justin:              And then time in and everything continues on. Pete:                No, but I think in comics Wednesdays are like our Mondays, you know what I mean? That's the start of the week. Justin:              Oh, interesting. Alex:                 I like [crosstalk 00:45:28]. Justin:              You have a calendar in your house is just Wednesday to Wednesdays just like- Pete:                Wednesday to Wednesday [crosstalk 00:45:33]. Justin:              Mondays and Tuesdays are just lost days for you. Alex:                 It's always Wednesday somewhere, you know what I'm talking about? Pete:                Oh yeah. Justin:              Timeout. Pete doesn't know what he's talking about. Timing. Pete:                Timing. Alex:                 I like these books quite a bit. I thought the other world stuff was really interesting- Pete:                What a surprise. Alex:                 … I really liked the Braddock family. I thought they're really fun in the way that Tini Howard wrote them, delineated them in an interesting way. It also throws in interesting power dynamic into everything that's going to other world, which if they're trying to defend to other world, but they hate other world, what's up with that? I guess we'll find out how that plays out. But the big one was X-Men 13 which gives completely red cons apocalypse, gives a entirely new motivation for everything that he has ever done, which is very, very classic, Jonathan Hickman, Marvel at this point. But I think it works. Justin:              I think it does work as well. And it is weird because it's like apocalypse who is like, he's been alive for millennia. But then you're like, “Wait, that dude was married?” Pete:                Yeah, right. Justin:              Like, oh, okay, he had a little life. Cool. Alex:                 Well, and then the other part of it for those who haven't read the book, this is a spoiler, but we find out the reason he's always been looking for the fittest and the strongest to survive is to master the forces to fight back the beings that are invading [inaudible 00:47:01] and therefore [inaudible 00:47:02] and eventually the earth. It's actually been this [inaudible 00:47:05] heroic motivation the entire time, which is kind of an amazing retcon to throw in there. Pete:                Yeah. Oh yeah. By the way, apocalypse has been not evil this whole time. Justin:              I don't know, I bought it like, as far as a cut scene to just drop in for us. I think that works. And despite the fact that he has been a villain this whole time, if he's trying to find the fittest so he can get back to be with the people he loves, that's enough of a motivation for me to be like, “Okay, maybe this person can now stand with our heroes.” Pete:                I agree. Alex:                 Pete, you disagree. Pete:                I would rather watch panels of him trying to put that sword together than to hear about his bullshit family. Alex:                 Man. Justin:              Wait, why would you rather watch see him put the sword together? Pete:                Because at least that's moving the fucking thing forward. Alex:                 All right. Well, we're getting to it. Pete:                I want to see a sword fight. I want to see a giant fucking sword fight. Alex:                 You're going to get it, you're going to get a big all sword fight. Pete:                And they're giving me all these goddamn backstory before what's going to hopefully be the greatest sword fight of all time. Justin:              What if instead of a sword fight they just talk it out. Pete:                If this is going to be a fucking kill bill situation, I'm going to lose my goddamn mind. Alex:                 What if it's like the sexual sword fight, Pete, what would you think about that? Pete:                That would also suck. Justin:              Speaking of that- Alex:                 It would in fact. Justin:              … let's jump into our next book. Alex:                 All right. Let's move from saying that you were a little conflicted about Pete, a title I know you love, Faithless Two, number five [inaudible 00:48:50]. Pete:                You can't even [inaudible 00:48:51], you're cracking yourself up. Oh yeah, I love it, ooh, what the fuck. Alex:                 Well, I was kind of cracking up because you couldn't stop yawning while I was introducing this. You made the biggest, most adorable lion yawn while I was doing that. Justin:              Yeah. You are just a little bit, you're a little baby by just waking up from a nap. Alex:                 I thought this was great- Justin:              And Alex is like scar, Alex's scar being like, “Hey kid, you want to see some porno?” That's what we're doing right now. Alex:                 Oh, Justin. I thought this issue Justin actually got to the heart of what you've been talking about for the past couple of the issues with this book, where we'd be like, “Okay, what's going on with this art? They're visiting many wonderful European countries. There's some fucked up shit going on. There's weird sex stuff going on. What are we getting through this title?” And this issue did it. This issue pulled the lid off, revealed what the title at least this part is about, and I like that quite a bit. How'd you feel about it? Justin:              Same way. This felt like, I mean, if we can talk about how, this book is very sexual, and mixing that with sort of the demonic and we find out like heaven and hell in this universe they're creating. Pete:                Heaven fucks too bro, you know what I mean, come on. Justin:              No doubt. Yeah, no, I know. Alex:                 Oh, that's a pull quote [crosstalk 00:50:15], thanks Pete, you're [crosstalk 00:50:16]. Justin:              Heaven fucks too. And this, I feel like it has been a lot of buildup, and finally this is sort of the release issue where the orgasm issue, where there's a ton of sex in this issue, and it's about coming to conclusion. Pete:                You don't have to say it like that. Justin:              But that's truly what I think- Alex:                 No, he's commenting on coming to conclusions. Justin:              Exactly. I think this is truly what it was written to be, and I respect that. Pete:                We can be honest on this podcast, right? There's a thing that happens in this issue where they're having a threesome, and I've never had a threesome, but I have to assume when it happens it's like in the book, where you start to meld into each other and turn into each other's sexual organs until you become one sort of like human centipede, centrifugal force type thing. Is that correct? You guys [crosstalk 00:51:14]. Justin:              That's been my experience. Alex:                 Yeah. Okay. Pete:                Especially when you do weird drugs and then have sex in the woods. Alex:                 Nice. I thought this issue was very good. Last one, we're going to talk about Night- Pete:                Wait. Alex:                 Yes. Pete:                While we're being honest, I just wanted to say, Justin, the next time we're stuck on a boat and drinking with Brian Azzarello, I'm going to have a lot of questions for him. Alex:                 First of all, how dare you? Justin:              The real question is, don't do those drugs, those weird drugs that we didn't like last time. Because we should say a lot of this book is based on our time on the comic book carnival cruise that we did. Alex:                 Yeah. The boat was called the USS Faithless, right? Justin:              That's a 100% right. The Faithless Two. Alex:                 Last but not least, Nightwing number 75 from DC Comics written by Dan Jurgens, art by Travis Moore and Ronan Cliquet. Finally, Nightwing is back to himself. He has his memory again. In this issue, KGBs is coming for him. He's trying to figure out what's going on with himself, both with his ex-girlfriend Barbara Gordon, as well as his new girlfriend. We haven't really been following this title, and I got to tell you, I like Nightwing stuff, but I really got off when he lost his memory. Jumping back into this, this was a pleasant surprise. Justin:              Yeah. Rick Grayson was the sort of like devil may care, like I'm bad character, that filled in after he lost his memory, and it just didn't work I feel like. It didn't feel at all organic to Nightwing. And so it is good to finally see him back, especially since Nightwing has had so many iterations that have worked in a surprising way, a lot of the Tom King stuff where he was a super spy. [crosstalk 00:53:09]. Yeah, with Tim Seeley working for checkmate and all of that, it was great and it was not Nightwing, but it still worked because he was still inherently himself. And the recreation stuff felt like such a departure that it didn't … it felt like a one-off issue thing where it was like a bummer, but let's get our guy back, and it just lasted for longer. To see him back here being in themself is exciting. Pete:                Yeah. I also liked the Alfred stuff, I thought that was very touching. I'm glad somebody is really dealing with the lost here. Alex:                 And I like the idea also of bringing back KGBs, the person who shot him originally where he lost his memory and building it up as this big, bad villain, foreign Nightwing. I think that's fun, it gives it emotional stakes, ties it into the previous art, but moves it forward in a very nice way. I enjoyed this book. I was very surprised, I'm glad we checked it out. And I think that's it for The Stack, if you'd like to support us, patreon.com/comicbookclub, also do a live show every Tuesday night at 7:00 PM to Crowdcast and YouTube. Come hang out, we would love to chat with you about comics at comic book live on Twitter, iTunes, Android, Spotify, Stitcher, or the app of your choice to subscribe and listen to the show. Comicbookclublive.com for this podcast and many more, until next time, this is The Stack, signing off. The post The Stack: The Scumbag, Fantastic Four And More appeared first on Comic Book Club. Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/comicbookclub See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I sat down with my yogi Alex Schimmel from LifeTime Fitness here in Phoenix, AZ. Because I believe the health benefits of yoga are too important to ignore or at a minimum, spread the word, I had to have Alex on to share his knowledge with all of you, my listeners. If there is no other exercise you ever do, you MUST do yoga to stimulate every area of your body. It's amazing how using your own body weight in various poses, can make you really strong and get you in the best shape of your life. ********** Styles of Yoga taught at Life Time Fitness FIRE (HIIT)- Experience our new high-tempo format that blends intense anaerobic exercise with recovery periods ROOT (Fundamentals) - Start here and begin to understand yoga movement while holding the body in long basic poses SOL (Guided) - SOL is a guided yoga format that provides direction throughout from supportive teachers in a dynamic vinyasa format FLOW (Vinyasa) - Try our new guided practice where your teacher provides more deliberate cues throughout class SURRENDER (Yin) - Experience long connective tissue stretches and meditative breathing for greater breathing and self-acceptance BE (Meditation) - Develop a conscious, calm mind through meditation with a focus on breathing Alex's Links:"Inspire The F*ck Out of People" - eBook Presale Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theyogageneral/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alexander.schimmel.5 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-schimmel-374484a/ Email: schimmelyoga@gmail.com Alex Schimmel - Life Time LifePower Yoga Boutique Manager LifePower Yoga Teacher Training Faculty LifePower Yoga Master Trainer https://youtu.be/vo_c_5pILKU ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe:Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Alex Schimmel: Joe: Ok. Today, my guest is Alex Schimmel. Alex and I met over at Lifetime Fitness in the Biltmore area. And Alex is the yoga manager over there. And I was super excited to take as many yoga classes as I could. And luckily, Alex is the person over there that we really fell in love with. The way he teaches is his demeanor, everything about what he does. So, Alex, I'm really excited to have you here. And thanks for taking the time to do this. Alex: Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe. A pleasure. Looking forward, Joe: Yeah. Alex: You get to know each other better. Joe: Yeah, man. So my first. What I want to do first is just get to where we are today in the sense of how you got into this. I would I would assume that, you know, you took yoga like me, and then it became more of a passion. And then you became a yogi. But what can you go to when you started? Why you did it? How long you did it? Before you decided to make the jump to be a yogi. And and then we'll go from there. Alex: Yeah, for sure. So I'll give the abbreviated version, because it could be pretty long, but so my mom's a yoga teacher, so I've had yoga in my life, like, forever. I remember being a young kid maybe like seven or eight years old, and my friends would be playing wild in my house. And my mom would like eat. Guide us through relaxation in my living room. Like, you know, just to get us to probably calm down is it's probably not just to show us yoga, but to help us chill out a little bit. And so I used to go to my mom's yoga classes and I was like a little kid. And then my teenage years kind of rebelled against it. I thought the yoga was something that just like women do. Just people my mom's age did. So I wasn't really too open to it. And then towards the end of high school, I started to just get more like into spirituality. I read some spiritual books as I was given a book, The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success, by Deepak Chopra. And there's a lot of yoga philosophy in it. And it was things that I really like. It made sense to me. And it was the first time that because I wasn't really religious, I grew up Jewish, but not really like strong in religion. Alex: And those that that book and those spiritual teachings, it just it just resonated with me. And so that kind of open my eyes a little bit. And then I had an injury. I was a baseball player in college and I hurt my shoulder just playing like backyard football. And to kind of help heal that, I started to get into yoga, go to my mom's yoga classes again and. Soon after. I noticed that yoga was like. Not only did it make me feel better in my body, it also really helped me balance my schoolwork and just help me. Like I felt like it was just making my life better. And a lot of ways. And then my mom encouraged me to do this like two week teacher training. That was when I was like 19. I was my first teacher training. And that was really for my for my own knowledge. I wasn't really sharing it yet. But it was something that I knew enough where I could practice in my living room at home. And then fast forward a few years. My senior year of college actually got diagnosed with Crohn's disease. And Joe: Allow. Alex: I was a pretty tough, pretty tough time in my life. There was a lot of challenges. And yoga then became like instead of it just being an exercise, it really became my medicine. And to this day, it's still my best, my best medicine. So that was like that was the moment in my life where yoga was no longer just like a hobby or something. I did sometimes just like it's what I needed. And it became a daily way of living again, not just what I did on my map, but like a way that I live and honor all my relationships. And then after college, I graduated and I worked a sales job in New York City and really hustled and then did the grind for about a year. And it just was not a good mix for my health. And I realized, like, I was making a lot of money, but I wasn't fulfilled at all. And I I left that job. And then for the next, like three months, I traveled around to different yoga retreats and I did my first real two hundred hour teacher training. That was seven years ago now. And. And then once I got back from that, I was like, yeah, this is my. This is my path. It's my purpose. And I just kept going from that. Joe: That's really cool. And where did you take this training? Alex: Yes, it was it was so special. I did a. It was like a three week immersion and it was twenty five days in Isla Mujeres, Mexico. So it's a little island off the coast of Cancun. And it was like a super cool kind of rustic resort hotel retreat center. Like no TV's in the room. Very, very basic. But it was it was just like super blissful. And, you know, I feel really blessed and privileged. I was able to take that kind of trip to do my teacher training. I definitely, you know, empty my savings account and those, like, months of, like, wobbling around. But it was super special. And that training, it was way different than what I teach now. But it really taught me how to be a yogi. So it taught me not just how to teach yoga, but what it really means to to live a yoga lifestyle, what it really means to be good at yoga. And it was it was really powerful. Joe: Yeah, that's cool, and people talk about going to certain places to become a yogi, right? I mean, I guess I think like even myself, you think that people that do meditation and yoga and it stems out of like being in India or something like that. Right. Is that true or is that just another fallacy that Alex: Yeah, Joe: You know. Alex: I mean, yoga's origin, like, you know, the first the first time yoga was kind of found in any text or whatever it did, it did seem to originate from India, at least the yoga exercises. Right. The poses if you look at pretty much every spiritual tradition as far as like the philosophy goes. All of them are ways to practice yoga. So that's why some people can be really religious and they can practice yoga and they can become a better or more devout Christian or Jew or Muslim. So it's it's not like yoga is not a religion, but it is a spiritual practice. And a lot of those teachings are are universal, which I think is another reason that yoga is growing so much because they realize, like, wow, this kind of goes with what what I believe in. But as far as like historically. Yeah. And India's India's the the the birthplace of it. Joe: Kind of like the Mecca. Right. Alex: Yeah, yeah, it takes Joe: Ok. Alex: A lot of people go to India for four different paintings and stuff. There's I haven't been to India before. I think a lot of yogis kind of consider it like a rite of passage. You know, once you spent time in India, maybe you get a little more street cred and some. Joe: So that's the I so I was wondering, I guess my next question was going to be, had you gone to India yet? But it sounds like not yet, but I assume at some point maybe that's a goal. Alex: At some point, I mean, it's not like the top of my bucket list. There's a lot I love from Alan Watts and I think it's really applicable to that. He says the only Zen that you'll find at the mountaintop is the Zen that you bring with you. Joe: Yup. Alex: So like, you know, India sure, you can be immersed in a culture. And I think it's cool to learn about the history, but it doesn't necessarily make you a better yogi to spend time in India. You can you can find all those teachings. They're already they're already inside you, right? Joe: Sir. Alex: That's the idea. Like, whatever, you know, whatever yoga you find in India is probably yoga that you already have. Know, it just helps you kind of uncover it. So for some people, it becomes a life changing experience. And I've heard from other yogis that, you know, it didn't it didn't do so much for them. Joe: So let's bounce back to something that you said was was when you were in high school, you rebelled a little bit against it. Right. And it was based on the stigmatism that we all think about. There's these yoga people walking around, burning incense and walk around and samples and, you know, draped clothing or whatever. I don't know. Right. Alex: Maria. Joe: But I. But the purpose of this podcast for me is to inform people and to bring subjects like this, especially when I believe in it. Like, I wouldn't do this if if it was something I didn't believe in. I know how it's helped me. And I look forward to being there in your class. So I don't think enough people do yoga. And I think it's such an amazing thing to do if you can't do anything else. Like, if I have a day where I know I'm slammed and I can't go and pump a bunch of iron or whatever, and there's days where I'll do it before yoga and yoga is like the release of all of it right from me. But I would like you for me, it's like God if there's one thing you can do. Just do yoga. Alex: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's I think especially like the styles that that I've learned, you know, and I do feel really grateful that I've been taught the practices that I've been taught. It's really all encompassing. Like, there's some people that I know that practice just yoga and they are ripped. Strong human beings, if that's what you're going for. But then in addition to that, like in addition to the physical, you get the mental benefits of the focus and the memory and the kind of meditation aspect of it. And then I think also just moving your body and doing breath where there's an incredible emotional release. And to me, most importantly, it's it's a spiritual practice that you connect with your essence and who you really are. So, yeah, I think I think yoga is it's it's amazing to do. And I and I agree with you more people. It's growing for share. It's great. Becoming more and more mainstream. But there's still a lot of people, especially especially men, that would benefit, that would benefit from it. How long Joe: Yeah, Alex: Have you. How long have you been practicing? Joe: To be honest with you, when we got to Lifetime and started with you. That's the only time I had done it up to that point. And I think I might even said this to you is that we had the P90X disc right. From Tony Horton and that, that yoga program on that desk was pretty good. It put us through a lot of cool things, but I don't think I ever took a class until yours. Alex: Nice is awesome. Love it. You got them there. You guys been there almost every day, it seems Joe: Yeah, Alex: Like. Joe: Now I'm hooked. And so here's the thing that I want to convey about you, just to take kind of like my own little infomercial about you and the reason why it's it's such a great class and Joelle and loves it and Ashley loves it. And there's you have this combination about you that is like the perfect yoga instructor or I don't know what. Is that what you call it? Yoga instructor. What's the proper. Alex: I guess the guy's a teacher. Some people Joe: Ok. Alex: Say doctors I feel like instructors, correct? Teacher. Teachers connect. Joe: Perfect. OK. So to me, you encompass the perfect yoga teacher. Now I'm lucky that I found you as my first. And I didn't, you know, whatever. I didn't get tarnished by anything else. But you're, you're the tone of your voice. That's the first thing we all talked about when we got back, was like your. Your voice is like very soothing for the practice. And then you do ramp up really nicely through the class. And then it comes back down really nicely. The storytelling that happens intermittently throughout the class. So I encourage anyone to just go there and take one of your classes. I know that. I think. But you can only go. You can only do it if you're a member. All right. Alex: Yeah, I think that right now, with with everything that's going on, I don't think really guest, guest passes. Joe: That's right. Alex: But luckily for everybody and all your listeners, too, there's a lifetime app and you don't have to be a member to download the app. And there's recorded classes on there. And I was just in Minnesota, I just recorded like five classes. So probably in the next week or two. Everyone, if you have a if you have a phone, if you have an app and on YouTube, I believe you, you'll be able to take my classes online. It's not the same experience. I'll tell you about it really even. I made a post on my social media about it yesterday. It's different teaching to just a camera. Like I realized that I really feed off people's energy Joe: Yep. Alex: When I'm in class. And I think and this is a shift that's happened to me more lately when I teach now. I used to be like a big planner. I got a plan what I was going to say and what stories I would tell. And now I just go in there with maybe a loose idea of what I teach, but I just kind of let it flow like and I feel like the students that are in the class, in a way, bring bring what they need to hear out of me. So it feels really good when that happens. And it was just different, you know. There was no students to bring it out of me. So much so. So those online classes are a different experience, but yet still still good in a way. You can check me out. Joe: Yeah, that's perfect. So I'll make sure that in the show notes, I put the link to all of that so that everyone can get a taste. And then unfortunately, the reason I didn't want to do this episode with you is I don't want the class to get full. And then Alex: Oh, Joe: I can't get in it. So Alex: Yeah. Joe: I was this balance between I want to have Alex on and I don't want people to take my spot in the class. Alex: Make sure you get a spot to. Joe: So let me see what I had. Oh, so I want you to tell. I want you to tell a couple of stories that you've told. So I, I and I remember, too. So I want you to tell the water bucket story. If you don't mind. Alex: Ok, to that Joe: I think Alex: One. Joe: It's super cool. Alex: Yeah, so I love stories, first of all, I actually just wrote an e-book for teachers, leaders, speakers. It's called it's called "Inspire the Fuck Out of People." And. Joe: Awesome. Alex: And it's a book about it's really just a book about storytelling mostly and like themes. It's what I do a lot in my teaching. All of my students realize that, like, when you come to my class, it's going to be more than a physical. There's always gonna be there's not always a story, but there's something deeper. So I just I just wrote my book. I compiled, like, all my stories and everything together. So. So that's pretty cool. And I do love stories. And one of the things about storytelling that's really cool is, is we're wired for storytelling. That's how we like as it as through history. That's how we've communicated. And so our brains are actually wired and there's all kinds of research and studies that have been done. And one thing that's really cool is when you tell a story, your you and your audiences brains get sinks. So I kind of think about like Inception. Have you seen the movie Inception? Joe: I probably have and I don't read. I'm the worst at remembering that Alex: It's Joe: You'd Alex: A stupid. Joe: Be surprised how many times I purchased a movie on Netflix and 10 minutes into it and like, damn, that's $4.99 I just wasted because I already saw. Alex: So anyway, so it's just like the idea when you when you tell stories, you can you can like better plant seeds in your audiences mind. So it's a really powerful way to convey messages and meetings and deeper teachings. So that's where I look. What's one of the things I love about storytelling? So that that storytelling of the the water bearer. So it's a story that there's a water bear. And I think the story of the woman is in India. And every day she has to go and walk like two miles to get water for her family. And she carries this big pole on her back with two buckets on each side. And every day she fills up the buckets and or the pots. And when she gets back to her house or her family or whatever, one of the parts is always like a little bit down, like half empty because there's a crack in it and a cracked pot feels inadequate. Right. It feels like it's not enough. Very similar to how a lot of humans feel and different things, especially when we live in such a world of comparison and competition and starts to feel like upset. And tell us the woman, you know, I feel so bad. You work so hard, you know, to take this long walk. And I don't I don't carry my full weight. Right. I always, always let some water go. Norman says the tomorrow when we take the walk, just notice the beautiful flowers that are along the path. Alex: And so they take a walk in the pot sees all these beautiful flowers shining in the sun. And it's like, you know, temporary happiness school. Beautiful. They get home still, that pot is half empty and still is is upset. It's like, yeah, I noticed the flowers. But that doesn't I'm not full, you know. And the woman says to the pot, hey, I knew you had a crack. So every day I noticed that you were like dripping water out. So what I do is I planted seeds all along the path. And did you notice how there was only flowers on one side? So every day we take that walk. When you leave the water out, you're not leaking the water. You're watering these beautiful flowers. That makes my walk more beautiful. It makes my family happy when I can bring the bring the wildflowers home. And, yeah, it's just it's a really big reminder that we all have cracks. We all have things that we look at as flaws. And recently, I don't know. I heard this from from one of my teachers. But our our mess. Right. They got flaws can become our message and they can become our purpose. And a lot of times those things that we view maybe as as ugly or we hide from others can end up being the most inspiring thing that we have to offer the world. Joe: Yeah, yeah, it's it's so true. Man, this is part of why I started to share just some of the things that have gone on through my life. Just because I think you have to tell these things to let people know that they're not alone in in these struggles or these these turns in the roads or whatever might happen. It's like you were talking in class about I think you reference about, you know, getting knocked to our knees and getting back up. And it's when we're in certain poses and that you can feel the distress and that sensation. And, you know, my arms is doing the side planks today. And my arm was wobbling like crazy. And I like man and it's true in it. And it's it's the way you teach it and it's the metaphors that you bring up and and you never correct anyone in the class. You know, everyone smile. There's a slight hint like, no, raise your arms up, not for whatever. But it's it's it's you know, it's done in a very compassionate, gentle way. And that's what keeps me coming back. It's like I don't want to go to a class and not know the poses and be judged, you know. And I was lucky, like literally Tony Horton's disc taught me enough to at least initially walk into that class without feeling completely ridiculous, but. Alex: Confidence. Joe: Right. But the cool thing is that you have these classes online that people can learn. Some of these initial poses are what you call them. Alex: Yeah. Yeah. Joe: Ok, I got I don't want to say the wrong thing and go, oh, my God, it is. And then take your first class. If you do some of the basic things, you'll feel really comfortable. Right. Alex: Yeah, and I've I have begin people that have never taken yoga classes that come in and take take those flow classes that are hot and and challenging for sure. But, you know, one of the big things and one of the things that like let me rewind a little bit when I was first starting to get back into yoga that I didn't like is I would take classes that were very like alignment based where it was all like posture focused. And hopefully you get and when you take my class, it's not really about the pose. I like Joe: Correct, Absolutely. Alex: Most. OK. It's it's there and it's good to move your body, but it's it's not so important. So I use to take these classes in like the whole class would just be pretty much like you're doing it wrong. This has to be turned this way and this has to be done in this way. And I felt like it didn't make me feel empowered. It made me feel like I was just like not good and weak and that like that I really had to honor what the teacher was saying. And then I decided that I tried to teach. I want you to come in and realize, hey, if all you do is breathe for 60 minutes and that happens sometimes, it hasn't happened so much and more because it's a new community. Sometimes you just gotta come on to your mat and breathe and it doesn't matter anything else that you do. Like if that's what you mean. Beautiful. And the poses truly are secondary and they truly are just an opportunity to to have some awareness in your body. It's not about like perfecting the pose. And I really want people to know that not just for me, but for many yoga teacher, yoga teacher stressing or like or like marketing themselves on. I'm going to help you do this posture where you can get really good at poses if you if you practice my yoga. There's a there's a A out there. You know, I think that some people really like that. And I get it. For me, though, there's there's so much more. And like I say, in say in my classes, we don't practice. You're going to get good at yoga poses. We practice. You're going to get good at life. Joe: Yeah, man, it's it's so true. Like I said, I can't thank you enough for, you know, this the way you handled the classes and it's we're like we're signed up for as many as as many as we can take. I don't want to, like, dehydrate myself. Taking a high flow class every day. But, yeah, we keep signing up. We love it. So before you when you you took the training and to become a yoga and where. How did you teach and how did you get into. What did you do before you landed at lifetime. Alex: Yeah, that's a great question. So first of all, like when you do a teacher training, the kind of the introductory level is 200 hours. That's like that's the training and really 200 hours because yoga is so complex and deep and there's so much to it. Two hundred hours is like kindergarten, right. You get that that kindergarten degree and you definitely have a knowledge foundation. But then you have to become you have to continue to learn. You have to always be a student. And so for me, I finished my 200 hour. This was this was after I lived in York City. I moved back with my parents and I came home from that training and I convinced my parents to get rid of our couches in the living room and turn it into a little yoga studio. But a yoga studio at my house and I didn't I guess I didn't really feel that confident yet to apply. There was really only one yoga studio in my town and I didn't really feel that confident yet. But what I started to do is just have three classes at my house and I put it on Facebook and I invite people to come in sometimes and have three or sometimes five. A lot of times like one and a lot of times just no one would come because again, I was like new to my, you know, seven years ago even there wasn't a whole lot of people that were practicing yoga wasn't very popular where I was living in South Jersey. But I did that for like three months. And I probably had like three classes a week at my house and started sharing where I could. And then and then I felt ready to audition at a local studio and taught there. And then fast forward, like, you know, for my first year of teaching, I was teaching and probably like five or six different studios in South Jersey. They're all super spread out. Those times are I'll drive an hour to go teach a class Joe: Oh, Alex: And like, Joe: Gosh. Alex: You know, and when you're a brand new yoga teacher, you don't get paid a whole lot. So sometimes I would like, you know, drive an hour to teach a class for fifteen bucks. But if that wasn't what it was about, it's never been Joe: Right. Alex: About that Joe: Right. Alex: Night. I do feel like I've, I've been blessed and I am happy that I have an entrepreneurial mind where it's yoga. I live a good life. I'm very happy with with the lifestyle and able to live through it. But I was teaching for a while. And then what I really wanted to do was share yoga, like I wanted to share with as many people. That's been my my mission for a long time. I heard this somewhere that inspired me where they said something about like instead of focusing on being a millionaire, how about you influence a million people? So then I. So my goal for, like, I don't know, forever, when I heard that, I was like, OK, I want to be a billionaire. I want to have an impact on a billion people. That's a lot of people. And I know that the way to do that is to influence people that are influencers. So. So my my next kind of step in the process was I knew I wanted to lead teacher training. You know, I wanted to teach other people to teach yoga there. There I would have like an exponential growth on who I'm impacting. And I met someone actually out here in Arizona, which is funny, was way before I lived here. This was this is about five years ago, a little over five years ago. And they told me that they recommended a a three hundred hour teacher training. So that's like, you know, 200 hours, the kindergarten, 300 hours, like Joe: Hey. Alex: Maybe you got a high school little a little higher level. You go a little deeper in. And they told me to do this teacher training in Michigan with with my teacher, Johnny Quest. And I went there and it's funny, like the way I in life, I let things flow so. Right. That like that it felt very like just. It just made sense to me. So I didn't even do much research and I just went to this 300 hour training in Michigan. It was another immersion. It was like three weeks, three weeks straight. Joe: Wow. Alex: And when I was there, I realized that that training was the style that they teach at lifetime. And and that was. And then I was told when I was there about one of the other teachers that their friend was going to Grand Open. They were going to be the general manager of this club in South Jersey that happened to be like 40 minutes from my house. So when I get home from the training, I went to talk to the one of the managers there about just teaching that I was thinking, like, I you know, it's an hour away, 40 minutes away. Maybe I'll teach, like back to back classes. Let me see if it's worth it. And then, like, I show up one day and kind of just tell my story. And the woman who's a dear friend of mine now, she's like, well, we have a yoga manager. And you're hired like you're the you're our guy, you know, because I was the only person in that area that knew the style that Joe: Yes. Alex: We taught. So, yeah. So, again, fast forward a little bit. Got hired at that. That was my first lifetime. I was the yoga manager and we had like just a thriving community. Just incredible. You know, there would be we'd have classes where there would be 80 to 100 people in a Wednesday night. Joe: Oh, my Alex: Yeah. Joe: Gosh. Alex: Well, like, almost the whole floor was mats. You know, there'd be that maybe I would I would say it would it wasn't really a joke because it was true. I'd be like, if you don't know the person next to you, then you can have like two inches between your mats. If you do, another person next to your mats could be touching. So very different world than now. I don't think super to me people would be into that. But it was amazing. The energy was incredible. People made like lifelong friendships. And I was there for a while, kind of felt like I was without a teacher. So then, you know, and the universe provided me the next step where my teacher, Johnny, called me and said, hey, come to Michigan, learn from me, learn with me. There's no there's like we need a yoga manager at this lifetime, Michigan, when they're taught for a few years. Also, you know, is it amazing to be a part of that community because they had all really learned from my teacher. So it's just a really strong community. They just really got what we did. So a super cool. And then I got tired of the Michigan winter. So Joe: Yes. Alex: The last Joe: I don't Alex: Year Joe: Blame you. Alex: Last year, I was like I called my my boss who do directs Lifetime. I said, Terry, I need to know, like, what lifetimes are opening in the next year. And this built more. One was one of them. And, you know, I'd I'd come here on retreats. I'd led retreats in in Scottsdale, Phoenix, for three years, my first three years of teaching at lifetime. Not sure why Phoenix. Like, that's just just a synchronicity. I just happened Joe: Yeah. Alex: To have picked Scottsdale to come to you and I was again familiar with it. And now I'm here and I love it. Joe: That's awesome, man. That's a great story. Alex: Yeah, and I think that one of the things that's important about it, too, is like if you look from a from an external point of view, it might just look like, oh, like everything just fell into your lap. You're very lucky. And I don't believe it's luck. I believe that, first of all, it's blessed. I do feel very blessed in my life. My life, not my whole life hasn't been a blessing, but in a lot of ways and very blessed. And I recognize that. But also, I believe that when you are doing your work and yoga, get called Dharma, when you're doing like your soul's purpose. Doors are going to open up for you that you didn't even know existed. And and then, like the old paradigm is that you have to have, like, super hard work to live the life of your dreams. And the new paradigm is if you're on your path, your path. Right. That's important. Not what other people think Joe: So Alex: You should do Joe: Important. Alex: When you're on your path. It doesn't it doesn't feel like hard work. You know, I've had a lot of success teaching yoga. And I've been a student and I've put effort in and I've taken inspired action, but it's never felt like hard work. And I think it's. And I know it's because I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm doing my my life's work. Joe: Yeah, it's so awesome. And this is great because my audience, the listeners, this is what I preach when I don't have a guest like you on, you know, it's all about that. Even though I'm older, it's taking me all this time to finally say I just need to do the things that that speak to me, that make me happy, that make me want to wake up every day Alex: Neverson. Joe: And smile. Yeah. And so I've come to the game late, but I'm working on it, you know, and hopefully I have a few more years before I take a dirt nap and I can get a bunch of really cool stuff done. So we'll see. Alex: And really, too, like your neck, it's never too late to to to to move in the direction of your dreams and really realize, too, like it's it's not a destination. It doesn't matter how early you start. You don't eventually get to this place where you like up there. I don't care Joe: Right. Alex: Anymore because it's there's always there is always a path, a continuous journey. So it doesn't matter when you get on the path. But it's it's a beautiful thing that you've found it, you know, because for a lot of people, they don't find it till maybe they're laying in their death bed. Right. Joe: I know. Alex: A Joe: Yeah, Alex: Lot of Joe: And I. Alex: It takes lifetimes to find it. Joe: Right. And I've actually I've I've talked about this in some of the. I've done a couple where it's just me kind of spilling my heart saying you don't want to have regret, you don't want to lay me there. And, you know, you want to have it be where you feel like you really live an amazing life. And so you more people have control over this than they think. And the problem is they they don't think they have control over it. They're they're just they're letting their life become something that is being steered by other people, other things, whatever. And. And I think that's why this time with the corona virus happening, this wasn't just a localized thing. Right? It was the whole world shut down and it gave everyone the opportunity to sit back and reflect on what it is that they do and what's the next step for them. And if they got laid off or fired or whatever, you know, they might not have a job. So what do you want to do with your life? Right. So to me, this is it's a cool conversation because it's it's not just about yoga. Your frame of mind is in the same thing that I'm trying to convey to the people that listen to this podcast is that let's, you know, pick what you want to do and make yourself happy. You have control to engineer your own life to to live the fullest life that you can. So figure it out and start. Now, we're never gonna get a plan. I did a podcast on this. We're never gonna get a break like this again. Our lease? I don't think so. Not in our lifetime, where literally everything just halts. Alex: Right. And also a lot of people get it individually, right? Sometimes it comes as like a diagnosis or a we're getting fired or laid off, you know. But this is a collective where we have an opportunity as a collective to reflect on, like, how do we want to be not just on our individual life, but how do we want to live as a community, as a whole, as a collective? And I think also that's why a lot of things are coming to the surface. You know, a lot of the tension and seeing like injustices and starting to the fact that there's more awareness there. It's a beautiful thing. Weather doesn't matter. You know, there's there's a lot of different opinions on how it's been addressed. But we're going to see. And I really do believe this is like a new paradigm. Things are no longer hidden. And and we're seeing that and more and more and more and more ways, like even restaurants go to go to new restaurants. They almost always have like an open kitchen. Right. Like you Joe: Yeah. Alex: Go to because you can see the food being prepared. And that's how our whole life is starting to be, where it's there's there's nothing hidden anymore. And we don't want the hidden. So, like, whatever's been in the darkness where we're shining light on it. And it's it's arising. And like what you said. Yeah. It's so important to do what you love doing, to do what makes you feel good, because there's a lot of people that are even super and putting this in quotes against successful. Right. And usually that's like a monetary thing. That's kind of how our American dream Joe: Yeah. Alex: Then equated that are like super rich and just like so unhappy and numbing themselves. They're addicted to all kinds. All kinds of shit. Whatever it is that that, you know, everyone has different ways to numb themselves. But, you know, it's not just about money. It's not just about like working hard. It's about loving your life and living the truest version of your life. That's that's what's going to bring you the most fulfillment. Joe: Absolutely. You know what? And here's a good segue way, because you talk about community and how we're all thinking about the future together. Now it's really like a shot in the head for everyone saying what is going on and we've got to fix this. And and it's not just singular now. It's it's your your family. It's your community. It's everything. And when you were in yoga and you talk like that, can feel it in the room that everyone is is realizing that we have to make the right changes to move forward. And. And it just it's it's powerful. So this is a Segway to that really cool story you talked about with the kids lined up and the Alex: Oh yeah. Joe: Basket. Alex: The trive...yeah. So there's a there's. A phrase in African culture from certain tribes in Africa. And it's I don't know exactly how to pronounce it, I think it's Ubuntu, Ubuntu. And the idea that phrase means I am who I am because of who we all are together. So like we're a product of our environment. And an anthropologist went to this tribe in Africa that kind of lives by this ritual. And they didn't experiment where they lined up all their all the children. And in the distance, like 100 hundred yards away under a tree, they put a basket of fruit and candy and all kinds of sweet treats. And this this anthropologist explained the rules of the game. He said, when I say go, it's a race. And the first person there, they get the basket of treats. They get the basket of goods. So obviously, like some of the older kids have a big advantage, they're probably going to be a little faster. So you lines them all out and he says, "Ready? Go." And the kids, they didn't have any time to talk to each other beforehand. And as soon as he says go, they look at each other that turns had side reach out and grab each other's hand. And together they like kind of jog or skip to the basket and they get there at the same time and they shared all. Anthropologists ask one of the older girls in the tribe that that probably was was one of the fastest, fastest ones. And you said why you could add it all to yourself. Why do you do that? And she said, you want to. How can one of us be happy if the rest of us are sad? Joe: It was so powerful when you told that story as a wow. Alex: Yeah, I mean, when you get that story mixed with, like, intense, you know, physicality, transformation, that's another thing that's beautiful about yoga. What I love about this platform is when your physiology changes. So if you're doing some kind of activity, you're also more open and receptive on on all those dimensions. So then when you hear something like that, it really lands. It really impacts you Joe: Yeah. Alex: More than even just listening to this or listening to a podcast or something. It's a different level when you're getting your physical involved. Joe: Yes. Absolutely. Alex: Huge one too like that idea, because a lot of us and this is another, like old paradigm we're taught. How many times we hear it like the idea of survival of the fittest and it's a shark eat shark or Joe: Yeah, Alex: Dog eat dog world or starve. Joe: Yeah. Alex: You've got to be a shark. And you've got to know in order to be successful that you need to kind of push other people. There's there's people that you need to kind of push down for you to to rise up. And that's that's bullshit. Like that's gone. That maybe that's how it used to be. But that's not how this new world, this new paradigm that we're moving into is like now it can be rather than competition, it's collaboration or conscious competition where we can kind of grow together. There's Joe: Yeah. Alex: A quote that my teacher used, always used that all ships rise in a high tide. So collectively we're raising each other up or lifting each other up and there's enough abundance for everybody. And that's huge to understand and to really get to and believe because we believe it on an individual level, the collective starts to believe it and then we'll start to really see it in our lives that like there's enough work for all of us. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and that's why the classes are so strong in the sense of it's the it's the work out that you get and it's that all of the things that that you get out of the class, but it's you get this benefit of all of this positive energy that comes out of it. And it's just it's amazing. That's what I want to touch upon. All I want to know for people that don't understand yoga. And obviously it's new to me. But I. I just know the benefit. I can feel it. I can already twist certain ways that I couldn't twist a month ago. Whatever it is. But I want to educate the listeners who have been on the fence about taking a yoga class. What are the benefits that you can express of what yoga does and why it's so needed? Alex: There's there's a there's a lot of benefits, and it really happened in in a lot of different ways. So I'll talk about the four dimensions. I talked about that a lot in my trainings and stuff four dimensions, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. And yoga has it's going to improve your life and in all of those physically. Is gonna help you feel good, right? Like moving your body and breathing deep. It's medicine for your body. And and and like, if we're honest with ourselves, we want to feel good. And there's enough shit that we do that kind of brings us into a state of not feeling great that this will help balance it out. Right. So if you'd like to party a little bit and drink or maybe, you know, indulge in some unhealthy food, that's fine. But this will help you. This will help you be balanced and and moving your body has it has a ton of benefits and moving. You're like just body weight is really good, too. So I know that a lot of people like my age. And when you're younger or really I should say, like men, men in general, we we think and we've kind of been programmed to think that in order to be. I don't know, appealing and sexy. And we need to lift a lot of weights. Right. And it's good to be strong for sure. But there's just so much wear and tear that comes from lifting heavy weights. Alex: And in most cases, like, we don't need that kind of strength. Right. Like like in our day to day life, we're not doing things well. So then it becomes not even that functional. But yoga, moving your own body, that's it. We're constantly doing and through those body weight movements. Not only is it going to build strength, but it's not going to, like, wear you down as much as I'm doing other other types of exercise. So that's a one big one physically is just feeling good in your body, going even deeper. Like I can tell you. So I have two autoimmune conditions. I've been diagnosed with Crohn's disease, which is intestinal inflammation. Kind of throws off my digestion and diabetes, so affects my blood sugar. When I practice yoga or really now I see it more now and I don't practice yoga because I do it frequently. If I don't practice yoga, my blood sugar is way higher. So it regulates my blood sugar. And there are studies that show it helps really everybody's blood sugar, which is good. But you have diabetes or not. It's good to have regulated blood sugar, helps your body just stay in and kind of balance. And and my digestion is better, too. And there's a lot of people that that have digestive problems. So just moving your body around and a lot of the forward folds and twists, it's like a massage for your digestive organs. So those are just like little benefits. Alex: And I'd say that each person you kind of have to experience it for yourself to really get to know. Right. Like I could tell you that honey is sweet and delicious, and I could talk about it all the time. How good honey is. If you never taste honey, you're not going to really understand. But when you really do it yourself, then you'll start to realize, like, well, yeah, I do feel better. So that's physical. Mental. It's gonna help you. I think the biggest one is it's going to help you be less reactive in your lives. So reactions are like, you know, someone cuts you off in traffic and you die. You start getting crazy and like fight or flight response, start getting angry. Or maybe it's with your partner that you live with where they say something that kind of pisses you off and you you just get super agitated right away. And there's no like, there's no. There is no cause from like the stimulus to the response. It's just right away that you're super reactive. And it's really powerful to be able to increase that space. So something happens, there's some kind of stimulus, and you're able to take a little bit more time to respond with with your whole being, not just like out of emotion or not just like out of anger or you're able to more intellectually, intelligently and emotionally respond. So I think that helps a lot. Joe: That's really interesting, too. I never thought of it that way. But to have that space between between what happens in your reaction is really cool. Alex: It's huge when you can when you've made that space even bigger, when that gap becomes bigger. That's really you talk about regret a little bit. Usually we only regret things when we react to them. When you have that space and you usually have a little more time before you respond to something, then you're probably not going to regret you're probably going to make a decision that's that's going to be best for it, for all parties involved. Definitely increases your ability to focus. Right. So if you want to be more proficient, efficient at work, if you want to be able to have better conversations, be a better communicator. Is going to help you with that, too. So mentally really powerful. And it just goes to improve your mood like movement and breath helps you feel better. So you're gonna be in a better state of mind when you're not when you're in a better state of mind, in a more elevated state. You're going to attract better things into your life. That's the best law of attraction and law of attraction. Is not this like hippy dippy, crazy thing that is real. And we're all doing it constantly. Right. We just aren't necessarily aware emotionally. Yoga is a great way to express it. So it's another thing with men like men were taught that to to be a strong man, we need to be stoic and we need to not really show emotion. Alex: And that takes it takes a big toll. Right. And that's why more men have like serious health conditions, because this is a popular saying mom like wellness practitioners, our issues are stored in our tissues. Right. So if we never release emotionally, then then then we have so much stress that we're just holding in and holding onto. I think also that's a big part of why I had a disease, why I got diagnosed, because I didn't have a healthy outlet to express the things I was feeling and some of the challenges that I went through. So. So yoga like moving your body, breathing. Kind of shaking things I talk about. Like shaking. That's a way that our bodies release. So that's a really powerful thing on an on an emotional level. And it just allows us to feel right. Like, most of the time we're numbing ourselves. Yoga is like the opposite. Like, go ahead and feel. You can feel angry. It's OK. You can feel happy. You can. You can. You know, there's a lot of people that practice yoga. And they they feel emotional, like they might cry or like feel like they're tearing up beautiful and you off to try to make sense of it, just like that's a release that had to happen. Joe: Yeah. Alex: And then finally, the good news is that. Joe: Not I don't know if it's it's exc. I was just going to say that you talk about the emotion part of it and how I even said to you after one of the classes, I couldn't keep tree pose, I couldn't keep it without falling out of the pose and losing my balance. And I found myself getting mad at myself a couple of times. And over the months I've learned to to just breathe and settle into it. And then it's it's become a better way of doing it for me. But I used to get mad at myself because I want I'm one of those people I got to do everything good or I suck, you know, and it's. Alex: You know, that man and I and having the awareness of it. That's a huge benefit of the practice. I say it a lot in my classes. How you do anything is how you do everything. Joe: Yeah. Alex: And, you know, this is an opportunity to become more aware of, like what happens when you struggle. Right. Do you get pissed at yourself? Do you start to have this negative self talk? Because all that does is bring you to a downward spiral. Right. So as you become more aware of it, you go into your yoga mat and you might do something that like, OK, you're going to struggle in it, but can you still stay, like, optimistic? Can you still keep your energy up even when you're struggling? And that's going to help you so much in other areas of your life and your relationships in your in your work, in your, you know, whatever it may be. So that's really powerful. And in the final dimension where you get benefits is the spiritual and spiritual true. That's a pretty, like, misunderstood term. Couple of things that that it means to me. One of the one of the most powerful emotions or traits, I guess, to feel is inspired and inspired is that word in spirit. So it's like when you're connected to soul, right? When you're connected to your true self. Because you don't have a soul. You are so right. Every single human being is Joe: Mm hmm. Alex: A school. We have a body. We have a mind. But we are we are soul. And when we're in that place of spirit and soul, we get out of our own way. And we start to realize that we are our biggest obstacles, like our ego. Right. That that part of us that maybe gets pissed when we're not doing so good or maybe gets offended or overthinks things like we get in our own. Our ego gets in our own way all the time because we just want to be loved and we want to be appreciated. We want to be like, you know, our ego wants to be the best and recognized as the best. And when we're in spirit, we don't care about that. Like when you're really inspired, all that shit goes away. And I think everyone's experienced it in some way where they're just in the flow of life. So, like, I'm a big athlete, I love playing sports and I've had moments in life. I'm just totally in the zone. Right. I know musicians and runners. They experience it, too. And in the zone is the same thing. You could change interchange that word with being in a state of meditation or being in it in a state of inspiration. In spirit. Joe: Yeah. And it was interesting because, again, talking about the practice of yoga. And I wanted to actually ask you, what do they call it, the practice of yoga. Alex: Yeah, I love that because it's not a performance and it's not a competition, right. And it helps you realize that it's not a destination. So if you if you're not performing yoga, there's no one that you're trying to impress with yoga. Social media. Maybe there's some other things about it, because you'll see a lot of these famous yoga accounts that just pose like pretty photos. But to me, that's not really what yoga is about. And yoga for four more more of the time that it's been around, as has not been about postures, it never really was about posture. It's just in the past few hundred years, poses became became what yoga is like known for. It's never a performance and it's never a destination. And, you know, one thing about practice is like you don't really need to label or judge it as good or bad just by putting the effort in. You get the results out. And I think that's a pretty powerful thing because most of the things we do in life, we're doing to, like, impress other people or to to perform something and almost everything that we do, we do to kind of impress other people or or get some kind of recognition and yoga. It's not about that. Just you come to your mat. We just practice certain things. And what you're really practicing in yoga, not getting good postures. You're really practicing strengthening the qualities of the mind that serve you right. So equanimity, having a balanced mind, non reactivity, kindness, compassion, enthusiasm, inspiration, like those qualities, the mind you're strengthening and then you're learning to weaken by just not giving energy to the qualities of the mind that that detract from you. So like competition and judgment and negative self talk, those things. So really, that's what you're practicing. You're practicing getting better at living your life. Joe: Yeah, awesome. I want to, if you can, and I don't know I don't know how deep you want to get into it, but I want to get a little deeper in the physical part of it, because I think that that's what's important for people to understand. I don't want them to think it's like to showing like I think the other benefits will come out of it if if they understand the health benefits in a physical nature of what it can do to them. And I know that where we're in certain poses and when we're in class and you're talking about how your toes are spread out when you're let's say you're in downward dog or your fingers are spread out. And it's and they talked about us all getting more down into the earth, like sitting on the floor during the day occasionally, like feeling more connected to the earth. Alex: Yeah. Joe: And and I know that when we do these poses and you talk about how you're pushing on your ankles and your fingers and your toes, and it's it's creating this circulation in the areas that normally aren't getting that kind of attention. Alex: For sure. Yes. Love it so. So let's start by saying, like, first of all, in in our Western culture, right. In America, there's something like one in four people have chronic illness. It might even be higher. It might actually be like one and two. But we live in a culture where a lot of people have disease and disease dis Joe: Yes. Alex: Ease. So the opposite of having ease in the body is dis-ease and the cause of most diseases. And this is really according to like all traditional medicine practices that have been around for thousands of years. Right. Way longer than our modern like pharmaceuticals and what we do here in our health care system. But like traditional Chinese medicin, Ayurveda which is the kind of sister science of yoga, traditional medicine that was practiced in the Middle East for thousands of years. It all says that the main cause of disease is stagnation. Right. Like when there's just stuck, when we're stuck, they're stuck. Energy, that's the reason that we get tension, everybody. That's the reason that our digestion kind of sucks. So yoga in the poses and we work in the yoga posture to bring sensation to every single part of our body and wherever there's sensation that that's that goes hand in hand with there being stimulation. Right. So that part of your body is stimulated. And if you just, like, took your arm and you stack smacked your arm a lot. Right. This is stimulation. It's going to start to turn red. That's increased circulation. So wherever you stimulate whatever part of your body you stimulate. There's more blood flow, more energy flow. And when everything is flowing, that's when we're at a at a greater place of of health. Better place of healing. And I love using the analogy of like a stagnant pond. Alex: Right. It's like very murky. It's it's kind of nasty. A lot of mosquitoes and bugs compare. And that's that's when we're stagnant. And if you think about it, probably a lot of people that we know well, maybe people that are listening to this right now. We spend hours a day sitting in a chair. So there's a lot of stagnant energy, a lot of blockages. Tips are so tight, our low backs are so tight. That's the pond. That's real stagnant energy. And then if you look at like a stream, it's very clear. It's smooth. It's flowing. That's the. That's what yoga helps helps us get like, more circulation in our body, more energy flowing in our body. A huge one. A huge benefit of the practice is you don't you'll see that you, like, don't need to be addicted to coffee and caffeine to have energy. Right. Like, you can find weight. Just breathe deep. You'll have more energy. Do some sun salutations, which is like a basic yoga warm up super D. D series of movements. You'll you'll have more energy. And that's a beautiful thing too, because it's really empowering. You start to realize, hey, I can take my healing into my own hands. I can take my energy and my efficiency into my own hands. So that's a big part of how the physical postures work, is bringing more stimulation and therefore circulation to every little party about. Joe: Yeah, I think it's really important, so I wanted to just kind of drill that home because again, I think that the the idea of what yoga is, is you have to experience it. Like you said you can. You can tell me all day that that honey is sweet. And if I don't taste it, I'll never know. Right. So I just I want to encourage the listeners to initially if they just want to watch you online in a training, but ultimately I don't care if it's at lifetime or. I do care. I don't want anybody at lifetime. I don't want that. Alex: Save you a spot. Joe: No but I encourage people to go in and when they're ready to go take a class, because I really think it's super important. Alex: And I'm glad you said that because that it is a little bit of a blind spot for me, because if you talk to people that are close to me, like you'll see like I love yoga for definitely more than just the physical practice, like the physical to me is like really a smaller benefit to all the other practices. Like I said you don't practice yoga to get good at poses. You practice, you're going to get good at life. But I also realize it's really important for people to realize that, like, the physical is usually the introductory. Right. Most people come to yoga because they want to feel better in their body. They want to be more flexible. They want to kind of like, you know, if they have low back pain, they want to they want to help take care of that. So I think it's important for me to realize that and talk to that, too. And really, if you come just for the physical, that's fine. You'll get everything else. That's how it works for most people. They come for the physical. They want to Joe: Yeah. Alex: Be more flexible. They want to, you know, open up their hips a little bit. And then they start to realize, like, wow, this is. Like, I didn't freak out when someone just cut me off. I used to have road rage. Whoa. This is like my yoga practice is helping. I breathe. I did deep. I took a deep breath. Instead of, like, maybe yelling at my partner or yelling at my kids when they kind of pissed me off. Like, I saw that there's a little more space between my response. You don't have to. You want to go to yoga for that. But you'll get the. Joe: Right. So on top of that, this is just more of a personal question. Do you meditate also? Alex: Yes. Joe: Ok. I just that was a selfish question because I've done it off and on. And I was just wondering if it's something that you do as part of your daily lifestyle. Alex: Sure. I mean, I've I've been inconsistent over the years where I'll go and be really consistent with we're going to fall off. But that's like the seated meditation practice. And I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions about what meditation is. I've had I can't tell you how many students I've had say I can't meditate. I can't get my mind to still to be still. I can't get my mind to calm down to any thoughts. And like, that's very natural. But that's that's part of being a human having a human mind. It's not about making your thoughts go away. The practice of meditation and this is ancient yoga philosophy. This is like that the eight limbs of yoga, which is a really foundational yoga philosophy teaching before you get to meditation, that kind of the precursor is is concentration. So when you're doing when you're meditating, what you're really doing is concentrating on one thing. And if your mind wanders, it's OK as part of the practice. But you just sucks instead of letting your mind go away off into the distance. You notice it wandering and you bring it back. You notice it wandering and you bring it back. So the practice is concentration. Meditation is not really a verb. It's more of a noun that you might get into. But just because you sit and sit for five minutes doesn't mean you're gonna get into that state of meditation where you're like in the zone. Alex: And that's not it's practice another you know, another thing like you want to judge it as like, oh, did I actually meditate or not just take if you. And I like to teach when I do like one to one coaching, I just teach. Hey, guys, this is like we're just gonna practice concentration and let me call it meditation. We're gonna practice concentration. And as you get better at concentration, you start to get into the zone. And some people, almost everyone meditate just in different ways. Like runners. You know, I've talked to some people, too, that work with or might you have like a concentration practice, ignite or meditate. And I was like, well, what do you do to kind of like get out of your own head like or like, you know, what do you do to kind of if you have a lot of thoughts going on it, like why I like to run when I'm running, I'm just like fully in the zone and not thinking too much. Perfect. That's your meditation. Some people meditate when they play basketball and they play music when they create art. So there's a lot of different ways to do it. And I think that's important to realize, too, to. Joe: Yeah, and it's funny because what yoga has helped me to do is to understand how poorly I was breathing because I'm definitely a breath holder type person like I. The tension from holding my breath for certain things. And so it's opened up the fact that I need to breathe deeper and longer. And it's all part and it's all these little benefits that you don't realize you're getting. And that's why I think it's so important. I wanted to have you on because of all of this, you know. Alex: Yoga changes your life does Joe: Yeah. Alex: If you commit to it. And it just it just works for everyone. The big thing is you have to find the right teacher, right? The right Joe: Yeah. Alex: To feel like I'm not everybody's teacher. I've had people that don't like the way I teach. They don't. I talk a lot to a lot of stories. Some people like that. Some people like more silence. You know, I play my music really loud. Some people like that. And that's fine. And I and I realized that, like, not everyone's going to like me. I think if people if I wanted everybody to like me, I'm probably doing something wrong. I'm sacrificing Joe: Yeah. Alex: My truth. But there's plenty of teachers. There's plenty of styles of yoga. So once you find your teacher and your style and your person, you dive in and and like, it'll it'll change your life. Joe: And you touched upon something there that I wanted to ask you, this is about the music and how. How do you think that Paris, with what we're all doing in that room and and how do you I would, knowing you

If you think back to just a few years ago, when someone asked you to name a company that delivered food, you’d probably only be able to name a few pizza joints or the local Chinese food place. But today, the world has shifted and online food delivery is a booming business. Last year alone, Grubhub sold $6 billion worth of food, and the company delivers more than 500,000 meals per day. So how did Grubhub enable this massive shift to digital meal purchasing? On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, we welcomed Alex Weinstein, the SVP of Growth at Grubhub, and he explained to us exactly how the company has been able to become a market mover. From the initial education process to then focusing on customer retention, Alex and his team have been deep in the weeds of it all, and they have built a culture of experimentation, data analytics and a focus on ROI to stay ahead of the curve. Alex explains it all here.    3 Takeaways: Measurement and incrementality are important. You have to understand whether or not where you’re putting your dollars is making a difference, and sometimes the answer will surprise you True experimentation is necessary to create new methods of measurement, marketing strategies and growth opportunities. So the question you have to ask as a leader is how can you create incentives to allow people to take risks and learn? The time is now to learn about the newly-online customers that have trickled into your business due to COVID-19. In understanding their needs, you will be able to ensure retention and set yourself up for the new reality we live in For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder of mission.org. Today, my stomach is rumbling, because we're talking all things Grubhub. Alex, welcome. Alex: Thank you for having me. Stephanie: Yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show. I just pulled up the app earlier to be like, "What should I have for lunch today?" Because it's 12:00, and it's time to order something. Alex: What did you end up ordering? Stephanie: I'm looking at pad Thai right now, we have a really good Thai place down the street. That's usually my go-to, but I started to get influenced by sushi, so if you have any advice, let me know. Alex: I don't know the restaurants in the area, but look for those that are well-rated, and look for deals. We have a ton of deals going on right now. Stephanie: Ooh, nice, that's perfect. You are the SVP of Growth at Grubhub, correct? Alex: That's right. Stephanie: I'd love to hear a little bit about your role there, and what brought you to Grubhub. Alex: Sure, sure, thank you. I've been at Grubhub for a little bit over three years. My responsibility is for the consumer business. That is, how do we get more new customers to try us out for the first time, and how do we get existing ones to order with us a little more often? And hopefully they'll return. Alex: This spans all aspects of marketing. We do a whole bunch of stuff in-house. I'd love to explore that a little bit later. But it also involves a lot of work cross-functionally, across the product. When I say product, I don't just mean our apps, but the totality of the experience that the customer has, from our apps to the delivery, to customer care, if that's ever necessary. Stephanie: Very cool. Previously, were you at, I think I saw Microsoft and eBay, or what did your past life before Grubhub look like? Alex: That's right, that's right. I actually am a very strange Head of Marketing. I'm a software engineer by training. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. Alex: I've written a bunch of code. I switched over to product management, and then darkness had me, and I somehow ended up in marketing. I indeed was at eBay before this, also for around about three years. Similar role, maybe a slightly more narrow role, focused on customer retention, marketing technologies. Stephanie: Very cool. I'm sure that was great help working at a marketplace, albeit not maybe a three-sided one, but still maybe a really helpful to transition to Grubhub with as your background? Alex: It very much was. I have to admit, I thought I knew marketplaces after eBay, then when I started Grubhub, I discovered so much complexity. Our business, exactly as you said, is a three side marketplace. Restaurants, food delivery drivers, and consumers. It is a hyper local business. People who live in Palo Alto whole heartedly don't care how many restaurants we have in San Jose, and how good our delivery network is in San Francisco, right? Alex: It has to be block by block, and we have to make sure that we have good restaurant selection there, good demand, and good supply of drivers. Otherwise, if the three sides aren't in alignment, bad things happen. Stephanie: Yeah, that seems like it would be really tricky to keep all that balanced. How have you found success keeping everything balanced? Like you said, it's so hyper local, I'm thinking there could be a driver over in Sunnyvale, and they're definitely not going to go to my local Thai place to pick up the order that I'm looking at. Alex: Yeah, this is where a lot of fun in this business comes from, and a lot of complexity in this business comes from. We have to be really good at predicting things, and predicting demand. And we have to be really good at engaging all sides of our marketplace so that drivers actually want to be online at the time when we want them to be online. Alex: Consumers end up placing additional orders if perhaps we have a little bit too much supply. Restaurateurs want to create deals. Basically, being able to influence three sides of the marketplace in a automated, personalized, hyper local way, is really the only way we can survive, right? This, to me, is super joyful, and super complicated, and where a lot of learning, personally, for me, has come from. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm sure every day it's adjusting a little bit more, and you keep have to kind of changing things up and experimenting a bit. How do I think about where Grubhub is at right now? To me, it seems like it's the market leader. How many meals are being delivered? How much is that in dollar-wise of food that's being sold? How do I think about that? Alex: We're a public company, all of those numbers are public. Quick summary for you. We deliver more than half a million meals a day. Last year, we delivered more than six billion dollars worth of food. Of course, with the arrival of the pandemic, the demand for food delivery has also increased. The expectation of all of our constituents, and of our community, all of us, have risen tremendously. Because, from something that restaurateurs really on for a portion of their revenue, they now rely on delivery as the majority of it. Alex: For consumers, where they would perhaps order delivery occasionally, now is the only way for them to order restaurant food. A lot of expectations on us have increased throughout these past couple of months, even though we already started from being quite a large company with high expectations. Stephanie: Yeah, have you had to adjust quickly with everything going on with COVID-19? What have you seen, other than increasing orders, and how have you had to pivot to meet the customers and meet the drivers in where they're at today? Alex: Yeah, absolutely. Well, most definitely, yes. First and foremost, we began by focusing on safety of all the participants of our marketplace, right? This began with our work on personal protective equipment for our drivers. We distributed hundreds of thousands of PPE sets for free for our drivers. We invested a bunch of work into enabling contactless delivery within our apps. Which, of course, is something that makes the entirety of the marketplace safer. Alex: We basically have to take our product roadmap, and, in many ways, revisit it fully, and focus on things our community demanded of us in that moment. Similarly, we had to do something like that with marketing, as well, because we had a certain strategy. You of course know that a lot of our effort is in making sure that consumers can get the best value on Grubhub. If you spend money on food delivery, your dollars will go the furthest on Grubhub. This really is our brand positioning. Alex: When COVID came, we had to take a pause, because this rewards positioning, or this value positioning, really had to take a step back, because consumer's interest... Sure, they were looking for deals, but they were looking to be safe, first and foremost. Secondly, they were looking to support their community. So we had to reposition a lot of our marketing work to make it so. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. I'm thinking that could be a trend that stays around, even after everything's over, keeping that contactless delivery at least as an option, and thinking about how to actually prove you have the safety measures implemented, and you're tracking that every month. Are you all thinking about how to scale that and keep that for the long term, or is it more just a short term play until the pandemic's over? Alex: Couple thoughts for you. One is, I don't think that we're going to be looking at a pandemic being over and everything coming back to normal. I think we need to get used to the new normal, at least until the vaccine is here. Which means that people's lifestyles, their habits, will be fully adjusted by then. Alex: As such, it's not like we were developing a set of patches for three months, and then after that, we just turned those patches off. But also, there's meaningful, positives coming from this change, right? Like any crisis, it is both a danger and an opportunity. What we've discovered is this contactless delivery, for example, besides making everyone safe, it is actually making our network a tiny bit more efficient. The delivery driver does not need to engage with the consumer in-person. They can just drop it off, take a photo, and keep going, and keep working. Which shaves off a small amount, but in the grand scheme of more than half a million deliveries a day, this starts adding up. It helps our drivers earn more, and it helps our overall network be more efficient, which means food comes to consumers faster. Stephanie: Yep, yeah, that's definitely a good change. There's a lot of food delivery players in the market right now. How do you create an experience that's completely unique to Grubhub? Where people, they're like, "That's where I want to order through." Alex: All of this, in our minds, has to do with differentiation. And you're exactly right, maybe two or three years ago, where consumers didn't really know much about the food delivery category. A lot of what we had to do was to educate them about our existence, which is why a lot of our marketing, a lot of our product, was geared towards a first-time experience of someone who's never gotten anything delivered other than a pizza. Because really, that was the state of the world, right? You would ask an average consumer on the street, "Name a couple companies that deliver food," and they would name pizza brands. Stephanie: That would've been me a couple years ago, too. Alex: Totally. Stephanie: I'd be like, "Domino's." Alex: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Maybe Chinese food, if you've ever tried it. An average consumer didn't know that there's hundreds of restaurants that deliver to them, and that they can find them on Grubhub. So that was the focus of our messaging. Alex: Three months ago, even before COVID, if you asked an average consumer to name food delivery brands, they would name us, and maybe a handful of our competitors. In that environment, I'm prompted, right? This is unaided awareness. Not, "Have you ever heard of Grubhub?" But, "Name a food delivery brand." Alex: Our work switched from creating awareness to driving consideration. Helping consumers understand, what is it that they get if they buy from us versus perhaps one of our competitors? Last year, a lot of our focus has been on stating this extremely clearly and delivering on that experience quite precisely. As I mentioned a little bit earlier, it is all about value for us. Alex: Now that we're entering a bit of a new normal with COVID-19, we're beginning to come back to some of this foundational brand positioning. Talking about rewards and value. We have a TV spot that's actually launching today and tomorrow on national TV. We're one of the biggest spenders on TV in both the category. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. Alex: Generally we're one of top 200 brands advertising on U.S. television that talks about rewards and value. You might be scratching your head and wondering, "Why in the hell is a digital first brand spending so much money on TV?" Stephanie: Yes, I was wondering. Tell me. Alex: It actually is kind of counterintuitive. We, maybe about three years back, we started scratching our heads and thinking, "Okay, if an average consumer doesn't really know what food delivery options are out there, how do we create that awareness? And how do we do that in a way that can confidently map the efficacy of our spend?" Because creation of awareness, let's face it, is the most expensive thing a company can do. Stephanie: Yep. Everyone wants it, but then actually implementing it, tracking it, and seeing how it did, seems a little tricky. Alex: It is so very tricky. Most mechanisms for doing this are actually kind of arcane, right? You do media consumption patterns, which, frankly is a large-scale survey that perhaps an agency would run and say, "Okay, New Yorkers, they absolutely do not watch any TV. They spend a bunch of time in the subway, true. And then they're all very much on digital." Alex: So, a brand that's trying to advertise in New York then would say, "Okay, television in New York, totally worthless. And our consumers are probably just like the average consumer in New York." That's kind of how the line of thinking typically goes. We, despite having a general applicability product, right? Everybody wants food delivery, right? Everybody from 18 to my mom, most definitely could benefit from food delivery. Alex: And yet, what we discover, is that the media consumption patterns of an average New Yorker are not the average media consumption patterns of our consumer. Moreover, what we discovered three years back was even though our intuition was that someone who orders food delivery online is most likely an early adopter of technology, and most likely a cord cutter, right? I mean, if you're about to order food online, you of course are ordering your socks from Amazon. You of course are watching shows on Hulu Plus without any commercials, as opposed to on cable TV, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Alex: Of course that intuitively made sense, which is why we've been spending a lot of money through digital video channels. That intuitively made sense. We stumbled upon a set of techniques that allowed us to, with confidence, compare the efficacy of our awareness spent between digital video and the digital awareness darlings of Hulu and YouTube and Facebook for some of the dimensions, here. What we've discovered is that the bull drought of digital first is actually not as efficient, not at all as efficient per dollar spent, comparing to the- Stephanie: Oh, interesting. Alex: ... boring, stodgy, nobody watches it, cable television. Stephanie: Is it because of the audience that's there, where the digital, like you were talking about, advertising to them, they may already know about you and it's an easier conversion, whereas the people who are keeping the TV running in the background all day, maybe actually need the ad right then and there where it can put a little inception on them and they can hear about it a couple times while they have the news on? Alex: Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons. Other reasons are that, just on a per impression basis, your digital video is dramatically more expensive. Even though I'm a nerd of machine learning, and I love personalization, I don't believe that personalization can cover a five X price difference. It can make something 50% better, but not five steps better. Stephanie: So how do you think about creating that culture of experimentation like you're talking about, where most companies right now are probably not focusing on TV campaigns? How do you think about putting a budget behind that and actually empowering a team to do that, where when I think about teams who are running with marketing budgets, or just budgets in general, it's very scary to not show a great ROI, because you either aren't going to get that budget again. It's a use it or lose it type of culture, it seems like every company operates that way. Maybe Grubhub doesn't, but how do you think about creating good incentives and a culture of experimentation to come up with some of those projects? Alex: I think a culture where you ask for confidence in measurement for your spend is a good culture. Where you ask for feedback loops is a helpful culture. Now, you can take this too far, and you can start trying to map everything to revenue or [inaudible 00:16:56], and that doesn't particularly help with upper funnel marketing campaigns. But, the other extreme isn't particularly better. I see a lot of marketing organizations end up in that spot, where we say, "We demand perfect measurement," from what they call performance marketing. Alex: And the brand marketing side, the one where vast majority of dollars actually have to be spent to create awareness, is not working to the same level of rigor, and the same level of intellectual honesty with measurement. To your question about how to actually create those frameworks for the team, a couple things come to mind. Alex: The first one is, trying to pursue incentive alignment. If people on your team genuinely believe that learning and optimality of investment for the entire team is how they get promoted, is what the company actually values, they will pursue exactly that. Let me give you- Stephanie: Let me hear an example. Alex: Yeah, let me give you a counter example. A counter example is what happens if you hire an agency to manage your Facebook spend. Have you ever heard an agency that managers Facebook spend come back to you and say, "Your Facebook spend is terribly inefficient. You should spend less on Facebook." Stephanie: Definitely never. Alex: Right? That's what their incentives are, they get a portion of your Facebook spend. The same exact thing happens for your TV agency. The same exact thing happens for someone who's managing your Google spend, right? If you have a bunch of outsourced agencies, each of which is responsible for one of your channels, their survival, their ability to feed their children, depends on you being able to spend more money on the channel that they're managing for you. Alex: Of course, they don't have an incentive to try to tell you, "Hey, take money from Google and put it into Facebook." They will personally suffer. A setup like this creates a true misalignment of incentives. Let me contrast that with, let's say, an in-source structure, or perhaps a structure where you have a larger performance agency that is able to reallocate dollars between Google and Facebook without personalty suffering. Alex: In a structure where you in-source, which is how we operate, you're able to create a shared destiny, and you're able to say, "Hey, person running Facebook. Your incentives are all about learning." So if you have a current level of performance, which is a certain level of incremental CAC, and a certain level of incremental LTV. Your goal is to improve that by this percentage over the course of next quarter. Alex: Find some way to do so through whatever experiments that you're able to run. One of the potential outcomes is an improvement in efficiency by reduction in spend. They're able to raise their hand and say, "Hey, I actually want to spend your dollars. Take away some of my budget, and reallocate it over to TV, because they can spend it better. I hear they have a way to spend at a lower incremental CAC than I can." Stephanie: Have you seen that in your culture so far, of people actually being like, "Hey, you can have this budget, move it over here"? It seems like a lot of times, people are personally tied to their budgets, and whoever has the bigger budget is the more powerful one, and I haven't often, at least in my previous days at other companies, I haven't seen people say, "Hey, you can have this budget and move it here." Alex: You are exactly right. A lot of our, I guess, legacy from many of our previous jobs, associates the size of the budget with the influence in the organization, most definitely. This is where the job of a leader really is to create the right incentives and to catch people doing something right. Alex: If you hire somebody off of a company that had that culture, of course, their initial inclination will not be to raise their hand and say, "Hey, my area isn't working so hot." You need to indoctrinate them, if that makes any sense, into a world where it's okay to raise their hand and do it. The way you do it is by upholding folks who do this, and pointing at them and saying, "This person is doing it right," and celebrating their successes. And celebrating their experiments, where, perhaps, they didn't see the immediate success, but they learned something. Alex: So, as a leader, I think you have a lot of power to create these incentives. As such, structure what your team actually holds as valuable versus not. If you point to enough examples like this, you'll actually end up transforming the culture, even for someone who comes in from an organization that wasn't like that. Stephanie: Yeah, it seems like it would also allow someone to wear multiple hats, and kind of become a polymath when it's like, "I don't just focus on Facebook ads, or I don't just focus on this kind of marketing." They get to experiment with a bunch of different areas. Have you seen that happen in your organization? Alex: Oh, most definitely. My paid social folks, just like everyone's, they were super focused on Facebook. What we discovered is them raising their hands and being very creative, and being some of the first folks who ever tried TikTok, for example. This was a little while back now, but we were one of the first handful of brands to invest a lot of money into TikTok, and do large scale experimentation with them. What we've discovered is if you're one of the first ones, there's very meaningful... Effectively, arbitrages to be had, where you're able to not only get a great deal, but shape the product to your liking. As such, get a temporary advantage over the rest of the market. Stephanie: That's fun. How did you think about creating your first campaign on TikTok? When your team presented this idea to you, were you like, "Yeah, let's do it," or were you a little hesitant? What was the first campaign you had go out there, versus what does that look like today? Are you still utilizing it? Alex: Oh my God, this is quite a story, to be honest with you. The team came to me and said, "So, we're thinking about doing TikTok." My reaction at the time was, "TikWhat?" They explained this to me and I read up a little bit about it. My immediate reaction is, "Okay, you are attempting to sell a luxury product." Let's face it, ordering delivery, you're still buying food from restaurants. It is a luxury product in many of the cases, right? To, "You're trying to sell that to people who have no disposable income of their own. The average customer of TikTok at the time just could not have their own credit card." Stephanie: Yeah, they have allowances, maybe. Alex: Right? Exactly. "Why in the world could this possibly work, you guys? Our average consumer is fairly affluent, and you're now trying to go into a different demo. How is that even remotely possible?" But, luckily, at that point, I had already observed that my team knows better than me, and that they have much, much better ideas than I do. Essentially, we just did a test. We did a small test, and we experimented in earnest. Surprise, surprise, they came back and they showed me the numbers, and they were meaningfully better than Facebook at the time. Stephanie: Wow. Alex: We ended up investing more. That was genuine, true learning. Not just for the organization, but frankly, for me. There's multiple possible explanations for why it ended up being so efficient, and I can go into some of them, but the thing that matters to me most is that the crew felt inspired to pursue something new. They felt passionate enough about it to structure a test when there was no framework, really, out there. And they were unafraid enough to basically tell me that I'm wrong, and that my intuition is off. Alex: That made me feel like the culture is actually right. The culture is exactly what I want it to be. The opposite of that, where you're going with the highest paid person's opinion, if that makes sense. Stephanie: Doesn't work. Alex: It doesn't work, because all of our intuitions, no matter how successful we've been previously, we are sometimes wrong. Why hire smart people if you don't trust them to try things? Stephanie: I think there's a good mix between trust your gut, but also don't trust it, because you could be wrong. Yeah, go with other people's ideas, as well. How do you think about those efficiencies that you're mentioning when you're exploring new channels like TikTok? Alex: Sure. To me, it's indeed about being open-minded and experimenting with new types of media, and being unafraid to try things that aren't immediately, obviously, going to work. A similar type of experiment happened with Snapchat a little bit earlier, where I also was convinced that this can't possibly work for the same reason. Luckily, I, again, was wrong. Alex: I guess a pattern of learning is what inspired me to basically create this incentive structure for the team, where they're unafraid to raise their hand and say, "Hey, the way we've been doing this before is really off." If you want, I'll tell you a story of a channel that's not really a channel that I guess formed my opinion on that topic. Stephanie: Yeah, let's hear it. Alex: This is a story of a couple marketers that were attempting to turn a specific city around. Alex: As we talked a little bit earlier, we can be doing super well in one city, and not well at all in another city, or in a corner of a city. A lot of what we do has to do with how do we turn a specific city or neighborhood around? This couple folks, their job was to turn a specific city around, and I was expecting them to come to me and say, "Hey, I'm going to take the budget that you've given me, and I'm going to buy some Google ads, and I'm going to buy some billboards, and maybe I'm going to buy some Facebook ads." Alex: What they did instead, these were two marketers. What they did instead was actually really curious. They experienced the product for themselves. They placed a couple of food delivery orders, and they came to me and they said, "Hey, I don't want to buy any ads," they said. "Instead, whenever I was placing the order for food, there really weren't enough food photos. I was ordering from restaurants that I hadn't ordered from before, and I don't really know if their pad thai looks good. I don't really know if their sushi is something that I want to try." Alex: They were in your position. They said, "Screw it, I'm not going to buy any ads. I'm instead going to hire some photographers to come into those restaurants and take the photos. Then after that, I'm going to measure the incremental impact of the added photography, and see if the efficacy of that is actually comparable or high enough, comparing to the efficacy of ad spend." Effectively saying, "I'm going to open a brand new marketing channel, and that marketing channel is going to be photos." Stephanie: Photography. Alex: I'm like, "Okay, let's just do it." Stephanie: A whole brand new, the vision, of Grubhub, just photography. Alex: Exactly, exactly. These two folks get on the phones, start calling photographers, start calling restaurant owners and scheduling appointments to have the photographers come in there. That becomes basically their job for the next two months. Alex: Then they organize a really [inaudible] visitors for these specific menu pages see the photos, and others don't. They do some serious math to try to say, "Hey, here's the incrementality in here, and here's the efficacy of the spend comparing to what Google ads would be, or Facebook ads would be." They discover that those photos are actually a better way to spend marketing dollars, than any actual marketing. Stephanie: Yeah. Alex: I, at that point, am kind of floored. I come to them, I'm like, "Okay, you guys are on fire, this is amazing. Let's take your thing and give it to operations and scale up this thing." They say, "No, no, you don't understand, you don't understand. This whole project sucked. We spent our entire days on the phone with restaurant owners, trying to schedule appointments. We are going to make it better." Alex: I'm like, "Wait, what's going on?" They say, "No, no, instead of scheduling appointments with the restaurant owners to take photos, we are going to rent Airbnbs and photo studios around town, then order food from the restaurants, bring it to those Airbnbs. Our food stylist is going to make it look good, and we're going to take photos." Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Alex: I'm like, "Wait, wait, what? What?" Stephanie: That's another level. Alex: Yeah. My immediate reaction from this is, "Have you ever seen delivered food? It does not look good." They obviously told me to go pound sand, as they should have, and they showed me the first photos from these experiments. Oh my God, those first photos look much better than anything taken in a restaurant, because food stylists are really good at their jobs. If you were able to control the lighting, you're able to take much better pictures. Alex: When they actually tried it, they discovered that instead of doing two photo shoots a day, the photographer, who's the most scarce and expensive part of the whole operation, is able to do 20 photos shoot a day. Stephanie: Wow, that's efficient, that's amazing. Alex: As you can imagine, at that point, my mind was completely blown. We indeed operationalized this with folks whose day job was operations, as opposed to marketing. This was the example of really learning what learning means. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). You kind of picked the markets to do that in, or you kind of see a market not doing so well, and those are the ones that you focus on getting the good imagery for, versus allowing that... UGC content to work well in other markets, or how do you think approaching that? Because it seems like something that would be really hard to scale, ordering a bunch of things all the time from every market in the U.S. How do you think about creating those campaigns? Alex: Yeah, yeah, yeah. With hundreds of thousands of restaurants on the platform, we indeed have constrained resources to do these photo shoots when we can. We can't do all of them next month. We had to be somewhat thoughtful on prioritizing things. A few things came to mind for being able to select the right restaurants to do this in sort of the right markets. Alex: First is, conversion. If consumers land on the menu, and end up buying stuff anyway. Well, that's cool, I guess they don't need the photos. If on the other hand, conversion isn't amazing, but the number of visitors to the menu page is super high, hey, this might be an opportunity to actually add some photos and improve that conversion. Alex: By digging into the data, and looking at where the majority of the incremental impact can be, we develop this framework for allocating this constrained resource, which ended up effectively being an investment of marketing dollars into a channel that's sort of marketing, but sort of not. Is it product? Is it operations? I have no idea. Stephanie: It's something, all the above. Alex: Right? Stephanie: How do you think about, you mentioned incrementality quite a bit. How do you think about that throughout your organization, when developing these experiments and seeing what works and what doesn't work? Alex: Sure. First, if you don't mind, allow me to define it as- Stephanie: Yes, please. Alex: Because I think that's super important. Incrementality, to me, is what would have happened anyway? If you didn't do your glorious marketing campaign, or this amazing product improvement that you just rolled out. This is a difficult question, because it's really attempting to attribute the entirety of this success, or entirety of what's happening during a campaign, to the campaign. Alex: Let me give you some intuition behind this, right? Let's say you go to, I don't know, gap.com or something like that. You see a banner in there that says, "10% off." Well, obvious, a lot of people are going to click that banner, and a lot of people are going to use that coupon to get 10% off of their transaction. The key question, though, is, what portion of those people would have transacted anyway? Stephanie: Yeah, they went there directly. They probably would have. Alex: Exactly, it's clearly not zero, because before you launched that awesome 10% off coupon, some people were buying jeans yesterday. Being able to, with confidence, judge what that incremental behavior is, and what is the incremental CAC, and incremental LTV, is super important. Simple back of the napkin as to how you judge this is, let's say yesterday, a hundred people bought those jeans. Today, 110 people bought those jeans. It's not a real AB test, obviously. But all 110 people used your 10% off coupon. You can wrongly suggest that all 110 converted because of your coupon, or you can look at the truth in the eye and realized 110 used the coupon, but 10 really only needed it. Stephanie: Do you think a lot of brands are missing this when they offer these discounts, and maybe unintended consequences that could come from it? I could see a lot of consumers, if they get used to you always having discounts, then they just wait. They're like, "I'm going to wait for that next 10% off coupon," then they don't have a buyer at all. Alex: Yeah, it is super dangerous. I do think that in some industries, there's exactly that happening, right? We know of the right times during the year to buy a TV, so we don't buy a TV until then. We know when the right time of the year to buy home improvement equipment, and we don't buy it until then. Exactly what you're describing is a real danger. Alex: It's not just a danger of delaying the purchase, it's a danger of create a permanently less profitable business. Imagine is, every Friday, Grubhub was to, let's say, give all our consumers three or five dollars off. Not only are Thursday orders going to be delayed, because our consumers are going to be like, "Hey, I don't really care when I get takeout. I'll cook one night and I'll get takeout the other night." They'll delay it until Friday, but those Friday orders are going to be less profitable. Alex: So we permanently teach our consumer base, if we take that route, to not only delay their orders, but to make them less profitable. That is a real issue and something you got to be super careful with, which is why you must measure incrementality. Stephanie: Yeah, especially right now. You see so many people discounting everything, it's kind of scary to think. How are you going to come back when your entire, everything on your store online, is 80% off? How do you come back from that? Alex: Most definitely. Now, if you have physical inventory, the opportunity cost is not zero. Right? Let's say if you're selling digital goods, for example, right? Let's say you're selling access to, let's say a song, or a book, right? Your fixed costs in that situation, your cost of an action, is terribly low, right? As opposed to if you have goods in the warehouse, and you aren't able to sell them, there's very meaningful fixed costs for you that you need to deal with. Alex: It might be, actually, quite reasonable to be running these high promotions, but if you are, you better be running it as a real AB test. You better be able to confidently say that this is the true incrementality of this 80% off coupon, and that's the true value that I'm getting out of it from both not needing to keep these products in the warehouse, but also from just sheer revenue from the consumer. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you have a good platform or way that you've set up metrics and things like that to measure that incrementality in a way that's not really manual, and then you can just kind of see how the campaigns and what they're doing is performing against each other? Alex: Yeah. In lower funnel channels, it is actually fairly easy to set up a platform for this, and we have. There are tools that you can use for it, right? Google Optimize, for example, or Optimizely, right? We have a combination of in-house and these third party tools to do product experimentation, for example. Alex: For things like CRM, couponing in the apps, or issuing emails with coupons, or push notifications, really good experimentation platforms don't exist off the shelf. We had to do some math ourselves. Some of that math turned out to be fairly fine tuned to Grubhub's needs. Here's what I mean by this. We're an LTV business. It's not just about the immediate transaction, it's about what happens after that transaction. Stephanie: Yep. Alex: For example, if a consumer ends up converting at a higher rate, and then afterwards has a poor experience and doesn't come back, that actually is terrible, terrible, terrible. Your typical, immediate conversion optimization tool, would just look at the first part of this. Oh my God, they converted at a better rate, great, awesome, keep it. Stephanie: Yay. Yep. Alex: We had to build tools specifically designed to capture these long-term effects. We typically look at the results of these long-term activities over the context of a month, right? So we need to see what happens to consumers for a meaningful amount of time to have high confidence that it indeed is net beneficial or not. Alex: Of course, we're able to look at things fairly early, and if something's a terrible idea, we're able to kill it early. But, in order to be able to confidently say what is the impact on the LTVs, we had to build tools. These in-house tools for many CRM things that we do today. Stephanie: Got it. Alex: Even then, it's just for lower funnel. It's just for CRM and product. How do you judge the incrementality of TV versus billboards? That is a whole other, super complicated story. Stephanie: How do you think about the intersection between your CRM and your content management system and your actual commerce platform? How do you create a good environment where they all interact together, and people can see a holistic view of everything that's going on? Alex: Great question. I don't think I have a perfect answer for you, other than enabling as many work streams for experimentation as are possible. That is, allowing the CRM team to run experiments on their own, without involving a bunch of product people, without involving a bunch of finance and analytics people. Similarly, allowing the front end or pricing optimization team to run experiments on their own, and do very specific price optimization experiments just by themselves. Alex: The more work streams like this you have running in parallel, the more you're going to be able to learn, as an organization, per unit of time. Stephanie: That seems like a great answer to me. It also seems like you would get a lot of, you could have a customer with a negative experience, but it would be because of maybe the restaurant. It seems like you guys would have a lot of insights into maybe how to help restaurants improve, where it's like, hey, every time someone orders this thing of sushi, you always forget the wasabi, and man is that making people upset. Do you ever send that data back to restaurants to improve the products as in their food, or the customer experience, or anything like that? Alex: Most definitely, you hit the nail on the head. We are in a really unique position of knowing not just who the people were, or when they placed the orders at your restaurant, but knowing exactly what they ordered. We can see exactly that pattern, right? We can tell you that on Tuesday night, the reviews for people ordering sushi, are actually worse than on any other night. We can help you see that, so that you can train the person that's working on Tuesday night. Stephanie: [crosstalk 00:43:21]. Alex: These kind of insights... Yeah, totally. These kind of insights are exactly what we believe is what is something that we can uniquely provide to our restaurant partners, besides demand. Of course they come to us because they're interested in demand, particularly now. But we can do more, and we've been building a lot of systems specifically about that, that are effectively... you can think of this as recommendation systems in the grand scheme of the word of giving recommendations to the restaurants about how they can lend the totality of their business more efficiently. For example- Stephanie: It seems like that could be a whole different business for you guys to also operate. Alex: It's quite synergistic in our minds, right? If we're able to make our restaurants more successful, it actually makes us more successful, in turn. Because, those consumers who are placing orders and are not getting any wasabi with their sushi, they are ultimately not happy with Grubhub. We want them to have an amazing experience. Alex: Whether the restaurant wins just on Grubhub, or throughout the totality of their experience, because, let's face it, that restaurant might be serving other delivery platforms, and soon enough, hopefully, dine-in, as well. That retraining is going to help the restaurant across the board. We actually very much welcome that. That means that we're able to create the value not just for our platform, but for the restaurant, and increase the chance that this restaurant will, ultimately, be successful. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think that's a really good point, especially as a lot of brands right now are shifting quickly to the world of Ecommerce and trying to figure out how to sell online. There's going to be a lot of new touch points that they maybe aren't anticipating that could actually hurt the consumer experience. If you've got the UPS guy throwing your box over the fence, and it's getting crush, there's a lot of things that actually, you maybe wouldn't even think of, as a brand, of, "That's not my job," when really, everything form start to finish to delivery and afterwards, and the follow-up, all of that's your job. And how do you think about controlling that experience with so many touch points? Alex: You are so right. The totality of this is their job. From the first ads that they see on TV, to what shows up when they look on SEM or on paid social and discover your brand there, too. The first purchase experience to the interaction with the UPS guy, to the interaction with customer service. All of that, in totality, is what the brand relationship really is, what the product really is. Alex: As marketers, we can't just care about that ads. As product people, we can't just care about the bits installed on the phone. They, in their separation, they don't particularly matter. As you saw from my story with the photos, that really was quite profound to me, right? We kept looking for a solve to get more customers and more sales through marketing, and that solve wasn't there at all. The most efficient solve was far outside. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah, such a good reminder for all brands to think about that, like you said, totality of the process. Because you have a software engineering background, I feel like I'm allowed to ask you tech questions. I saw on your, you guys have a blog on Medium, or your engineering staff does. They were talking about how they were creating discount codes using crypto. It made me wonder, what other kind of technologies are y'all experimenting with, or seeing success, or how did you think about running the platform that Grubhub's built on now? Alex: Sure. A few things are super important. One is having a scalable platform that can withstand demand, and that can withstand massive spikes in demand. As luck would have it, most people in Chicago, want to get dinner approximately at the same time. Stephanie: Yes, who knew? Alex: Right. What a pain in the butt. We've been trying to convince them to maybe come a different... No. Stephanie: Come on, 3:00's your time, come on. Alex: Exactly, exactly. Your dinner delivery window. Which, of course, creates formidable demand. Not just on the services in the backend of our systems, but a formidable demand on our logistics network. A lot of our work goes into being able to spike in response to customer demand. Let me give you one intuitive example of this. Outside of COVID, before COVID, when rain would start during dinner hours, demand would massively spike. Alex: At that moment, we're supposed to magically materialize a lot of drivers on the road doing deliveries. Being able to do so, technically, and when I say magically materialize, I'm of course referring to creating incentives and creating appropriate communication channels with our drivers so that they actually want to get on the road. A lot of our engineering work has to do with how we were talking about in the beginning, balancing the three sites of the network, and being able to respond to either a massive spike in demand, or response to a set of orders that were placed in the specific part of the city on the logistics side. Alex: Or, respond to an onboarding of an enormous partner, like Shake Shack, or Sweet Green, or Taco Bell, with their own unique needs. Remember, we work with such a variety of restaurants, right? We do point of sale integrations with a variety of our enterprise customers, which of course means that we have to have nimble systems that are able to onboard those same customers. They have to be resilient, as well. So, a lot of our work has to do with both scale and being able to deal with these spikes. Stephanie: Got it. Any favorite pieces of tech that you guys are implementing or trying out right now to help with those large spikes in demand? Or where you guys think the future is headed that you're kind of preparing for? Alex: Favorite pieces of tech. Huh. Huh. I'm going to think marketing tech. Braze has been an outstanding tool for our marketing teams. What we've discovered is it effectively enabled a whole work stream of experimentation for our CRM teams. They're able to run pretty sophisticated experiments completely independently from engineering, which increase our velocity of experimentation. Stephanie: Hmm, that's awesome. I'll have to check that out. Cool. So to zoom out a little bit, 30,000 foot level, what kind of disruptions do you see coming in the world of Ecommerce? What's on your radar right now? It doesn't have to be for Grubhub, it can just be in general. Alex: I think that the disruption is already here, where over these past couple of months, we've seen the portion of online transactions, and portion of consumers who have tried buying things online just catapult through the roof. All of those new consumers, let's face it, my 90 year old grandmother is using Zoom now. All of those consumers are a new opportunity. They have very different expectations. They don't yet know much about your brand. Alex: Being able to understand this newly online wave, and heightened expectations of the consumers that already happen online, but perhaps not as active with your service, right? Those, I think, are super important. This to me takes us back to velocity of experimentation, being more important now than ever. That is, truly learning from your customers. Observing them, creating experiments, measuring, and getting a feedback loop from them, so that you're able to focus and find the one thing that you can improve to make the whole story better. Maybe photos. Maybe it's something else. Stephanie: Yep. Yeah, I love that. It definitely seems like with these new people coming online, you have to have a bunch of different tactics to meet them wherever they are. The ones that have been working for the past year, might only work for a subset of the people because you have 50% more people that you need to market to, or develop a platform for, and it's going to be very different with how you approach those new consumers than what you've been used to. Alex: Exactly. Stephanie: All right, so, we're about to jump into the lightning round. Any higher level thoughts, Alex, that you want to share before we do so? Alex: If you're able to structure your organizational incentives to focus on learning and feedback loops, I think now you're going to see an even bigger reward for it in the form of market share, in the form of growth, in the form of being able to adapt to the world around you and leapfrogging the competition. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. All right, so the lightning round, brought to you by our friends at Sales Force Commerce Cloud. It's a fun and easy, quick round of questions where you have a minute or less to answer. Are you excited and ready, Alex? Alex: Very scared. Stephanie: Dun dun. All right, first one. If you are starting a podcast, what would it be about, and who would be your first guest? Alex: Whoa, what a fascinating question. What a fascinating question. I am obsessed with all things culture, and how do you actually create the right incentives for a technology/marketing organization? I love Simon Sinek. He is outright amazing. I learned a ton from reading him. I would probably to get him and if I can't, I'd get one of my former mentors in there, as a consolation prize. Stephanie: Oh, that sounds good. I would listen. I would be your first listener, and I would give you a five start review. Alex: Oh my gosh, thank you. Stephanie: You got me at least. What's up next on your reading list? Alex: Hmm, next on my reading list? I am reading Russian sci-fi novels these days, as a means of escaping from a tiny, one bedroom apartment. Stephanie: Any good ones that we should check out? Alex: I'm actually reading them in Russian, so I don't know- Stephanie: I was going to say, unless they're in Russian, then I don't know if I'll be able to read Russian quick enough to read it. Alex: Oopsie, oopsie, I do have a few people at my work who've been reading Tolstoy before the whole COVID situation started. I don't know if I'd recommend it now, Tolstoy does darkness extremely well. We have enough darkness around us now. Stephanie: That is true. Yeah, maybe not. Alright, well, what thing do you normally buy at a store that now you're just going to buy online after everything with COVID? Alex: What a great question. Only online now. Hmm. Stephanie: Tricky, tricky. Alex: I used to, actually a lot of my electronics. I used to come to the store and look at them and experiment with them. I have a feeling that I'm never doing that again. I used to come to a Best Buy and just try to look at different mice and monitors and all that. I got a new laptop and a new mouse online. I really like them, and I really like the experience. I was unafraid of returning them. That's it, online I go. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree, especially as a lot of these companies are making the return experience a lot more seamless. Yeah, I could completely see the same thing happening. Buy things, test it out, and send it back if you don't like it. Alex: I was just chatting with a colleague about this exact same thing with returns around fashion. I think there's a lot of innovation to be had with moving the fear in fashion through that. Stephanie: Yep, completely agree, except I could see them having to now to figure out a way to resell those items in a way that proves that they've been quarantined, disinfected, and yeah. I was just thinking about that the other day. Man, that's tricky, especially for second hand market places to try and prove to the customer that these items are clean and good to go, and you can buy them. Alex: I agree. Solvable, I think, but I agree. Stephanie: It is solvable. All right, so the last final question. What's up next for Ecommerce professionals? Alex: I think we're going through a time when from being on the early adopter, early majority demand for most of the brands. We've become the critical source of revenue for every single brand. If you think that your company was going through a digital transformation, and is now trying to make digital just a better channel, hold on to your seats, because it's not the only channel, and the majority channel. So, the demand for expertise in our area is increasing very rapidly, and the demand for learning in our area is also increasing rapidly. I think this is a wonderful time to be in Ecommerce. I think this is a wonderful time to be learning and doubling down on Ecommerce. I'm excited for all of us to be right at the center of this transformation. Stephanie: I love that, love the positivity, and yeah, it's definitely an exciting time to be alive and experiment and try new things. This has been a blast Alex, thanks so much for coming on the show. This is your second appearance on a Mission podcast, so yeah, we're so thankful that you came back and joined us again. Alex: Stephanie, thank you very much for inviting me. Stephanie: All right, talk to you later. Alex: Cheers.  

Alex: Hello, my friends in financial services welcome back to the podcast this week I've got an equity release advisor. And wow, we've talked about loads of stuff, loads of tips from Stuart probably more tips per minute than you get from your marketing expert. And so I think one thing for us as a business when we've helped people advertise equity release is a lot of negative kinds of thoughts and opinions of how things were done before a lot of people that are in situations or heard of people in situations that are not good because of equity release. And I've seen Stewart sort of on a bit of a mission to try and he's very passionate about getting this message across that modern equity release is much better. There's just so much in this episode of like how to negotiate with the press. We talk a lot about videos. So Stuart messaged me and emailed me in June about videos and him starting that video journey. We talk a lot about that. It's just such an interesting story about partnerships as well about how to focus on marketing to get partnerships not just to get cold leads. So whether you do mortgages, life equity release, or don't even work in financial services, there's so much you can get out of this episode from a marketing perspective. So, I want to introduce you to Stuart. How is an equity release at fly advisor in Plymouth used to work in banking used to work in Debenhams went out on his own after sort of a long corporate career and it's really fascinating to see where he is at now. Hello, and welcome back to the lead generation for financial services podcast and I've got a very special guest on today. I have got Mr Stuart Powell. How are you doing today?Stuart: Hi, how are you? I’m very good. Thank you mate. Thanks for setting this up. Be nice to have a chat. Alex: Yeah, no, absolutely. I was just well, we just before we hit record, I was just pulling out an old email that you sent me and I couldn't remember the date of it. And I think I sent you an email on kind of pop my sort of email sequence about doing videos. In fact, I think it's Yeah, it's entitled, you have to make bad videos to make good videos.Stuart: Yeah.Alex: He said, you've inspired me after listening to this podcast. We now have a YouTube video and four videos on equity release. Stuart: Yeah, yes. Take a look. Give me some feedback. Alex: So that was June 2019. We're now January 2020. So what six months ago and now I'm seeing the videos that you're doing now and you've got like you see you're not hiring in a sort of production crew and things like what it looks like.Stuart: Oh, yeah, we got producers, directors, actors, we've got that now. Yeah, you know, I think where we were with the business around June and your podcast on, you know, try it. If it goes badly, that's good because you learn a lot and the rule and this is exactly what people want to see. So I think to start with Sammy, my office manager and I were at probably a simply biz seminar down in Cornwall somewhere and we were on a break, and we were just playing around with the laptop of mom now actually, and just recording a couple of videos out in the sunshine in their garden, and just talking about equity release and she was interviewing me and we were playing around and they were good enough to release but they kind of inspired me to give it more of a go and then I listened to your podcast and yeah, don't worry about it. If it's bad, just start somewhere. So yeah, I went into the office. Did I think about a five-minute video? And it got really good feedback even though it was grainy and wobbly but yeah, that's where it started. Yeah, June last year. Alex: Yeah. Wow. Okay. It's great. I love it because like, well, the thing is with having podcasts you don't get more ratio of feedback to listeners is very different to anything else. Because like on a podcast, there's no natural place to comment or anything. People have to take the time out to send you a message. So like when you're putting videos on YouTube is easy to comment and you put posts on Facebook, it's easy to come up with a podcast, there's nowhere to comment. So I only get the old kind of message pin when people do actually reach out and it normally is because they've done something so it's always like, brilliant to hear that something that we've done has kind of affected someone else. So it was really.Stuart: Yeah, no, that's good. I sent you a quick message to say thanks you've inspired me. Yeah, but I watched it and got some feedback on it. And I think the feedback was great. I love what you're doing not enough people are talking about equity release. Not enough people are trying to educate both clients or potential clients or other introduces as to why it's good for the older generation, but also why it's good for other financial services businesses to understand a little bit more about it. And I went online and went on YouTube and there's no one really being real online about equity release other than being lossy companies who and millions on production or they've got their remember to morph Sony heart and all that they.Alex: Oh yeah.Stuart: They've got those types of videos which are great. So I decided to probably shorten the videos a little bit. Because the feedback was great, I really like what you're talking about. But it's too much information in a five-minute video, why not 1-minute videos. So, so yeah, I thought, right, let's break them down and literally put something out on LinkedIn. were based in Plymouth. So put something on LinkedIn, then you will know any good videographers. And a guy called Luke Strata was recommended a couple of times and he and I met he came in the office and wow, what a setter. I mean, the cost wasn't too bad at all. But the camera equipment I know you've seen it on some of our LinkedIn vids. It looks like yeah, so being in next Hollywood blockbuster, this coffee breaks a lot.Alex: And if you're in a restaurant or a cafe and I was at Stewart's house, and they were at the tables, that's definitely a restaurant or a cafe or something. I was like, I'm in the wrong game from and if you can get a house like that.Stuart: Equity release, and you're fortunate And I know that you know that we're very near the home, which is the beautiful see parts of glimmer, the office and we go down there for a coffee sometimes and of course we're OSHA mortgages notion act to release and the cafes overlooks the ocean and you know in my brain it made sense but the cafe owner said yeah, yeah come down for the morning and then you know just to make sure you have some tea coffee and bacon buses and you can have the room for free and you know, he asked me about the buses I'm honest. Luke and I went down there Luke set up first and I came in and oh my god, he has taken over, probably half that blooming cafe. And yeah, it didn't seem like a great idea at the time I took the dog down and I don't you've seen the first video but the dogs and James Bond villain stroking the dog up on my lap. I read two minutes before the video started to shit right. So in the cafe as yes and customers are coming in for breakfast so yeah. Not quite as glamorous.Alex: Yeah.Stuart: Oh then a storm came so we were filming with the storm in the background so the beautiful ocean waves were quite as I expected but you know you laminate and you've got to do better to do it well.Alex: Well, that's brilliant. I love that so much has happened to me so much to actually put you off doing it and make it harder to work with it. Let it go baby is still peeling off and I've just found my replies to you because I yeah, I think I said yeah, so one thing I think I said was like, Don't worry about you don't need an excuse to make the video I think I was like, I think a lot of people do that they sort of when you're first doing videos, you feel natural. You need to explain why during the video. Yeah. I remember saying that as well. And then yeah, I think I said splitting it up into smaller, smaller ones. Stuart: Yeah, great. Alex: Yeah.Stuart: It was fine because the first step videos were very much okay. The clients out there don't understand about equity release. So let's tell them what the process is. Let's tell them why modern equity release is better than the old equity release. Let's tell them you know, the interest rates are lower than they've ever been. Let's tell them there's no negative equity guarantee on just about every product out there. So, you know, there's a real fear in my world is about equity release. So let's dispel some of the untruths. Let's tell people what the process actually is. And let's try and be a little bit more accessible. There are some really big companies out there doing equity release, you know, you have Vivos, Liverpool, Victoria, and there are some huge broker firms. I think the more local the more family-based business, such as ours is where local older people want to be where they want to be, you know, they want the products they want their people to be from where they're from, and understand a little bit about them and their world. Does that make sense?Alex: Yeah, no, that's exactly what we found when we've cuz we've run some x release ad campaigns on Facebook. Yeah. We've found when we've advertised the advisor, rather than a brand, and we've made it very personal, they work really well. And the cost per lead is slightly higher than what you typically get with mortgages. Yeah, we brought that down a bit. But the quality when that comes through when we're advertising the person. What we have found, though, like, you rightly say, a lot of fear, like every ad campaign, we've put out, there'll be loads of people saying this is a scam. Yeah, many of them and we don't, a lot of our clients aren't where we're trying to get. We're creating written content to dispel the myths but a lot of them don't want to do video. It would be great if we had with each comment rather than having to hide it. We could put a link out Oh, actually, if you check this, you can see the difference between what you think and what it actually is.Stuart: Yeah, you know, we played around with some men, we did some Facebook marketing last year and yes, absolutely right. The feedback you get is, you know, it's quite vitriolic. They don't hold back. But I was doing it to get that over the phone, but we've just experimented with it. And they kept deleting the comments and I'm like, No, no, no, no. If this is the comments we're getting, we need to address them. So I took over replying to the office as a scam or that you used to get things like oh, my dad took out 70,000 pounds and now he owes 180,000. And I remember one specifically who'd said but you know, you don't know the backstory, so it could have been his house was repossessed. So we need 70,000 pounds. Therefore 70,000 pounds is a great investment to keep your property or the other thing, and actually, this is what I found now, he has taken it out seven years ago, and the interest rate was 8%. So what actually happened there at the time, it may have been the right thing, but now it's not that a huge part of our education is well, we need to review it. You know, I was looking at stats the other day, and it's about 40% of the public are on a standard variable rate for their mortgage for equity release, 92% of the public have never reviewed their rates. Well, that guy went back to and said look really sorry to hear but the interest is accelerated so much more neck to release lets you pay some of the interest, all of the interest and the interest rates start from 2.8%. Why don't we review that and we reviewed it and got an array of just over 3%? So bring your critics on it. It was brilliant. Because of how many people read that?Alex: Yeah, fantastic. Stuart: Yeah, very not so much. And we try to use those case studies because that's the thing. It's, you know when we're talking about rates, when we're talking about the non-equity release being x, y, and Zed, it doesn't really mean a lot to people. But when we're saying this client came to us on an 8% interest rate, we managed to do it for three. This is how much money he saved each month, or this is how much less the interest is accruing by so. So yeah, definitely the case studies would be a tip I'd give any equity release advisors out there, you know, make it real. Use the examples you are doing for clients because that's what people want to see.Alex: That's amazing. I think you may have single-handedly helped, as I was gonna say, millions of people who don't have lots of light bulbs. Go Often in my brain, I'm sure and you're on it but I know we get a few people listening to the do equity release as well that are thinking Actually, I can use and you do well that's made me think of randomly. Have you ever seen suits theStuart: Yeah, Meghan Markel and all that.Alex: Yes. And it just reminded me of Harvey spectre saying when there's a gun pointed at you, you turn it around and you've turned that negative feedback into a positive by going into a colour, no-win situation of someone slagging you off on Facebook, into a new client, you've literally acted them, ensure.Stuart: It's good to do and you know, it's quite good for the soul because if you're putting yourself out there in any context, we started off talking about videos, but this is Facebook advertising yourself out there and people are actually not slacking off your company as such. But then you're in and you know, my Facebook has got all my friends on my family on and if people are actually seeing The industry I'm in, it's got a bad reputation, then that tells what I do. So I want people to understand the passion I have for actually getting people to understand that modern equity release actually is a very far cry from where it was five years ago, and actually is the right thing for a lot of people. It's not the right thing for a lot of people as well. Yes, they need to approach us so that we can, you know, with full integrity, sit down with them and go, actually, it is right for you, or Actually, no, let's phone your lender and just renegotiate your deal. You know, we've done that for a couple of clients where we'll come into the office, we'll look at release, and you know, they're in their late 50s. And I'm like, well, no equity release can't be right for you at your age, because we don't want to pay the interest and the amount you're learning when you get to the age you're probably going to get to is a huge chunk of the likely value of your property. So let's speak to your life. And see if they will let you continue on your interest-only mortgage, let's be about other options for you. And if none of those options work, actually, equity release might be right for you. But it has to be right for the person at the time, the wise people and says, actually, I think equity release might be suitable for you, but in five years, but in five to 10 years, so let's stay in touch over the next few years and see if your position changes. So I think integrity has to be a huge part of it, which is why we've got to get out there and talk to more people.Alex: Yeah, absolutely. I think just linking this back to video so if I put myself in. So my mom is 70.Stuart: Yeah.Alex: She wasn't elite mortgage-free debt-free. If she wasn't, and I am. I worked in a different industry and I didn't know about equity release, and I didn't know about any sort of financial services like that. I would be worried about my mom at her age sitting down with any kind of financial advisor without me being there? Yeah, because they watched too much rogue traders and stuff like that and you're very protective over your parents. So linking this back to Vivio I think the great thing about video for me, if I was looking at it for her, and I saw you doing all these videos and you come across the way you do, I would feel much more confident picking up the phone to you and saying, Can you sit down with my mom and talk to her about it? Because I've got to know you a little bit and like you say, integrity, and trust.Stuart: Yeah.Alex: Really, really important for me and I think there's a lot of people who are like me.Stuart: I totally agree. And, you know, I can hear myself saying this to clients and I've said it's a mom, dad that five years ago, I wouldn't have done equity release for my mom and dad. Today without a doubt. In fact, we're talking about at the moment I would get mum and dad to do it. And if someone can say that they would advise their parents to do something like, I think that's hugely rare of how they feel about it. And yeah, you're right that the videos do help because people see you, people get to know you a little bit and it's only a little bit isn't it because it's a one minute, but they see you, they see you with the dog, they see your family business, and that does grow some confidence. And we, you know, but it's only one part of many, I would say, you know, our reviews are fundamental to us. Both have good reviews and are vouched for and vouch for, I think a brilliant company, who have really helped our business grow with their reviews and the way they do things. I also think if you're looking for an equity release advisor for your family, or for you, your business to work with Got to be by referral. So who would someone recommend? And you know, are they a good company ethically? And that's tricky to work out. And are they a member of the equity release council? That's the one that I would look at, you know, the equity release Council have standards for our industry. If an advisor or a company is part of that to release counsel, actually, they're taking steps to almost certificate how reliable they are. So yeah, videos are important, Alex, but I think, as a part of several other issues that people should consider.Alex: Absolutely. Do you think the equity release counts or do enough to make people aware that they as a body should be you know, they are that stamp of authority because you go to a website and you see that there but I think a lot of consumers may not know what that means. Stuart: Excellent question. I had this conversation with the equity release Council, probably about six months ago, I was in contact with the chairman, the CEO and the marketing department. And it was good. I'd made the videos. And then I thought, well, let's connect to the risk councils website, see what videos they got? And check. No, no joking at all. I think the most up to date video was from 2016. And maybe 2017. I think they modernized recently and went to the marketing department. I said, Look, I don't understand. And we are trying to get across to people how modern equity release has changed how the products for everyone out there. But your videos are just not up to date. I've made some videos, how about I send them to you. And you have a look, why not use them on your website. And they've used to, I should have told you. Sorry, I haven't told you that.Alex: I think I mentioned something about the equity release count. So like you said, I got a mention in a blog or something. Stuart: They put two of the videos on their website and we've set up a YouTube channel with all of our videos and they learn this but I completely understand if they can't be seen to be promoting one company. And you know, my argument to that was no, I don't want you to. I want you to show the equity release advisers out there, what is possible, you make videos, and make them interesting, make them popular, and we'll publish yours too. They started off with it's become my famous video now. It's the Wendy Bohunan video and it's a lovely lady from Plymouth who first got in contact with me last year, who and she'd seen an advert I put up a local glossy Plymouth magazine that goes up to about $40,000 And she'd seen it and she saw the family. The family photo as I call it. My wife sent me the office manager and the dog and then said I'll, you know, bulk bloke with glasses looks like a nice chap. They think I'll get him around. So I wrote around to see her and she was in a bit of a safe state. That was a horrible phrase, but she was suffering and her son was bringing her food parcels. She told me, she was wearing a 199 Oxfam dress, or someone's bringing her food parcels each week and a half, pretty dilapidated, and she got a call while I was there, from someone chasing her for money. Fast forward six months. I went to see her just before Christmas, and she was wearing a nice outfit. She now treats herself to Marks and Spencers once a week her son doesn't bring food parcels. The property has had some improvements and she no longer gets phone calls from people. Because she took out equity release, that is it's mental health has improved as well, that is a kind of rags to riches story for me because it's real. And she blesses her. She was recorded by the local paper who got hold of the story and she gave a one-minute explanation of what had happened and it was super Android equity release council saw this and said we want to use that Stuart, it's, it's a great story as to how to release can help people in the right situation. So you have to cancel since then. I've opened up this to equity release advisors. So if you are an extreme supervisor and produce some good video footage or a good blog, they couldn't have it on that site. So yeah, a good little tip there.Alex: Lovely, brilliant. Perfect. So I want to find out the kind of like because you were we've been talking off the air, we were kind of mentioning your sort of retail background, and then you've done you were sort of your last sort of employee job was with Santander. Is that right?Stuart: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I spent seven years straight from uni with deponents. And loved it there. Yeah. through the various management roles. You know that a lot about people and service, then, yeah, just happened to get into banking and was doing branch management and mortgage supervisor roles, regional mortgage manager roles. And, and then actually, I thought I could do this and I could do it as a business and there are so many marketing things that I want to do that a big corporation looks at and goes, it's not really the brand is not really what we want to do. It's not really where we want to go and I thought, well, actually, a good friend of mine owned financial investment companies. Short financial planning. And I said to him, Look, you don't have any mortgages. And I know you don't want to do mortgages, how about I have a room in your lovely offices, and I start a mortgage company, you helped me by being my supervisor. And then we came from there. And that was, what, two and a half years ago. And last year, it changed and we wanted to rebrand. We felt that we were growing to such a size that we saw the alarm in the background. Really, we thought, yeah, it's time to go out on our own. I bought his shares off him. Then we rebranded the company in January last year, and have a look back we went directly authorized and the big thing has been all the marketing we do all the branding we do is up to us. We've got no one saying oh, no, that's not what we want to do. That's not how we want to do it. We would play in our own funnel. And, and that's really, really how we want to do things. So, yeah, as a great step for me. And as I look back on it, we're sort of done 10 years before. So yeah.Alex: Was it scary?Stuart: Hell yeah. Yeah. Because you go from a decent salary to knowing money is coming in. And I know, a lot of advisors out there. I've done similar and it is scary. My wife had to work a lot of hours to pay the bills, and what it's like there's a pipeline for business and it takes two-three months to come in. So yeah, the early days were scary. But then we grew as having a reputation. But we started off as a mortgage company, Alex, residential is only and we started getting more and more equity released inquiries, and I've done the exams. And I thought I love this. I love how life-changing equity releases. And it's a booming business. And it's a niche. So all of those things made me think, actually that's the direction I want the business to go.Alex: Yeah, fantastic. And what's the kind of the plans for the future then are you kind of thinking about this? I'm happy to sort of, as far as we are or want more advisors or you know, want to go national or want to keep it local? what's kind of in your Have you thought about it? Because we're sort of about a year over sort of Christmas. I was thinking about the next year, what you know, future and things like that.Stuart: Yeah, very much. So I think, probably about six months ago. I thought, right. Okay. So, and you notice like you get anyone gets to a stage with a business that actually this business takes over nicely. I do the things that I want, I can pick the kids up, I can drop them at school. I don't have to work weekends but don't want to or we can go to the next level. I think because I've started collaborating with a lot of businesses around the country. We've got some good institutions in London, Oxford, Bournemouth, Basingstoke, new Bri, actually, we want to expand the business. I want to be out there more and meeting new introduces. So we've got two new advisors who actually are just going through their CMPA now. They've got a week away in Bristol next week doing what the week after, and then they've got two months gap, and then they've got another week in Southampton. I think the second one is.Alex: Okay.Stuart: So yeah, we'll have three of us advisors, recruiting additional admin, but we want to grow organically. So one of the advisors has been our office manager, so that's Sammy, and other ones my wife, so it's still keeping it a very close-knit family business. Because, as I'm sure everyone out there knows, recruitment is really difficult. Getting the right person that fits in your ethos in your model in your business, given the service that you give is very difficult. Whether we go that way in the future, I don't know. But it's interesting because I've just been working on this in the last couple of weeks. What do we want the business to represent in 2020? Well, we want to continue the education we're doing around equity release. We want to continue the collaboration we're doing with Well, we've got solicitors, we've got accountants, we've got mortgage brokers, we've even got equity release advisers who don't really like doing it to lease sending us business and with commission sharing with them. Because you know, if you've got a mortgage business and your equity release qualified, but you don't do many equity releases, it's difficult to actually sit down with Brian, and go, these are your options because you're not up to speed with it. It's fast-moving, so yeah, we're working with groups like that. And that's what I want my role to be going forward. But last year, our best things we did were the things where we went to events, we ran events with our introduces with our partners. And I'll give a couple of examples. So far this year, we've got fine dining experience. We've got a gin tasting event, and we're going to horse racing, we're going to eat now but races and then they help for our partners and are introduced as where we say, thank you. We say thank you for introducing that business to us last year. And don't forget us this year. Because for us, having fun at work is really important. You know, in the past, I've had mental health issues and I've struggled getting up. So the balance of business is really important to me. So yeah that's what 2020 looks like.Alex: fantastically you have me at gin tasting I am I'm a huge draw to know what my may want to know my knees or regulation is.Stuart: Come on. Alex: Find a gene that I like more than sip Smith.Stuart: What's it called?Alex: Sip SmithStuart: I'm actually writing this down what flavour?Alex: Well it's like a London dry gin. There's nothing fancy about it. Stuart: Yeah. Alex: Every gin that I try. Alex: Yeah.Stuart: It's like it's good, but it's not quite. So my solution is to find a gene that I like better than sip Smith.Alex: Oh, you have to try and then do a lemon drizzle lemonade just have the normal the green one. It's got a swan on it. I'm on like, it's one of the gin is on my things like I'm I think I'm known for having beard glasses. Loving and drinking gin is like the key thingsStuart: So I've just written down green with swan. So.Alex: Yeah, I'm after that. Well, if you love Sip Man, then you'd have enjoyed the research that I was doing last week of places in Devon, that have good gin events. And one of them and I'm not making this up, we've got the National Marine Aquarium in clover. Alex: Right.Stuart: They got an event coming up in a few Saturdays time called Gins with Finn. I'm honestly not making that up. They somehow have managed to get the National Marine Aquarium and the gym company together, and they didn't know what to call it. So it's an evening event where they've got a company with several different gyms and obviously the sharks and the various animals they've got in the tanks are the fins. So yeah, you might have to come up with four gins with fins, Alex.Alex: Well, the other thing I love is a good pun. I absolutely love it. So that sounds like it. My event well it's a full house.Stuart: Yeah.Alex: Oh, my so I'm gonna touch for a second I'm not gonna pass away this year but my funeral should be called gin's event.Stuart: Yeah. People will be pleased to hear we've actually decided against that one as Baba has 143 different gins and now teaches you how to make them and part of the event is you get your first three as part of the deal. So yeah, I think we've got. I think 12 of our introducers and partners come into that one. So yeah, it's all part of it. It's yeah, enjoy business, enjoy collaborating and let's make up days fun, I think is the key.Alex: Absolutely. Well, we've got a I was just looking at my podcast schedule and there was a guy we recorded with Adam King who, so when yours goes live, his would have already been on the thing he talks about is partnerships. That is massive for him so yeah it just makes sense doesn't it getting those right partnerships where it's kind of a win-win for you and for them even like you say people that are qualified in an equity release but do it as an add on? Stuart: Yeah, absolutely. Alex: Getting with the right people and yeah, and the thing coming like bringing it back to the video that is building rapport but it's meeting people in person builds rapport more than ever. Giving them free Jin builds a lot more report is all about for me like relationships are like having a good life. I just think I like doing business with people that I like.Stuart: Yeah.Alex: So and then doing like videos is getting to know them a little bit first, but then that's why we do our events in peace where I can meet a lot of people that listen to the podcast and things like that, and then that builds our relationship. Even more. And that's just the same across any business especially I think if you're giving financial advice. Stuart: It is a nail on the head, I think. Yeah, the videos when we started them in June and then through July and August, we released one a week of a series of educational ones and the ones we just started releasing all the why, as a sister, accountant, mortgage broker, etc. Should you work with us? So yeah, the second one will come out this week, and then we're doing them weekly. But the last set of videos, actually, yeah, you've just made me think of a guy contacted me on LinkedIn and said, I want to collaborate with you. You know, you could really do a lot of equity release. You see a lot of clients. I haven't got the confidence to do it at the moment. So yeah, can you see my client will like I'm sending them completed on Monday, the client completed on Monday and I'm sending him a check for just over 6,000 pounds this week, but actually check is so 1980s However I send him the funds as soon as I received them. So yeah, that the collaboration thing can be lucrative and he hasn't done any of the work or taken any of the risks on that, other than he has a good relationship with the client who now has helped her three daughters out one was struggling with our business one was struggling to pay a mortgage. And the third one was just delighted that her two sisters were struggling. Now she wasn't obvious but the other way we'll be fair to divide the money equally three ways. So the third child got the same as the two others who really needed it. So yeah, it's a good story about how videos can lead to increased collaboration and how that can help a business because how does that guy who sent the client to me know how does his client feel about him now that we've helped her solve a problem. Exactly.Stuart: Exactly. Thank you so much for introducing me to Stuart. Exactly. It's brilliant. It is like it is a win-win. And so yeah, no, I think we spend a lot of time naturally in our businesses thinking I want to find new business myself, and when I'm on a market myself, just to get new business, but actually marketing to get collaborators and partnerships as well is, you know, coming massively.Stuart: Yeah, yeah. And it's something that I cottoned on to later on last year because any marketing you do for clients is actually hard work. And it needs to be very consistent. You need to do a lot of it. And finding the right niche is really tricky. Whether that is you know, because obviously, my niche is, well, probably age 65 to 75 owns my own property. But has a need for a lump sum or income, whether that be to improve their lives, whether it be to invite them, improve their family's lives, whether that be to reduce their inheritance tax liability, and they're perhaps not easy niches to find in a marketing campaign. But when you're collaborating with people who, you know will write as, as an example, whether they're a solicitor or just a will writer firm, one of the questions they ask someone when they're writing Well, do you own your own property? Oh, yes. And we're writers that say to me that the phrase we hear most is where asset rich but cash poor. And, you know, I know someone who may be able to help you with that. Let me introduce you to Stuart. And he can talk to you about being asset rich and a little bit less cash poor. So yeah, it's those collaborations and when someone finds a client for you, the relationship is virtually almost there. Alex: Yeah, exactly. Stuart: Whereas when you find the client, you have to build the relationship. So yeah, the collaboration pieces are where the future is Alex? It really is. That's a huge part of our business for 2020. And I would suggest for people out there, it should be part of this.Alex: You've been dropping value bombs all the way through this Stuart. Exactly. We've needed for 40 minutes. I can't believe it. Stuart: Wow. Alex: This is what I love. So the podcast, but amazing is nearly when it will be a year old by the time we published this.Stuart: Okay. Alex: We would have only had this conversation if I had started it. And what I love about talking to advisors is that I learn more from your perspective as well. But yes, you know, we only generally only do the marketing stuff we don't deal with the end consumer. So for me, I get loads of different ideas from, from having people like yourself on. So I've really enjoyed chatting with you. I love your enthusiasm for everything. It's really refreshing. Is there anything we haven't talked about? That could help anyone listening? Do you think?Stuart: Yeah, the only thing that I think that I was thinking about? Obviously you, you invited me to this last week and I'm thinking about well if I was listening to a podcast, what would I want to hear that we focused a lot on video and I think the video is, is kind of the symbol of what we as advisors need to do. And what I mean by that is, the video was try something outside of your box, or something out of your comfort zone. Well, in the last six months, I've been trying things out of my comfort zone, and things like contacting that journalist in the Daily Mail, who's done an article about your industry and saying really interested in your article? A couple of things that disagree with that data? How about you ask me for a comment next time. I'm going to the local press and saying, Okay, what do your readers know about equity release? What do they know about investments? Whatever your niche is, what do they know? They will try to get you to do an advertorial and pay for it. But yeah, maybe that's the right thing for you to do. That morial is how I've grown my business in Plymouth. I think my advertorial now a lot of the local newspapers are online as well. And one of the 2400 videos that I referenced earlier on that got over 6000 hits from people online. So yeah, it's trying things that are a little bit different, be open to ideas. The last one I'll say is next Saturday, I think it's the 25th we've got an advertorial appearing in The National paper in the times and national paper, and I would never have considered going national, even a year ago. But the company phoned me up. And obviously, it's a selling space advertising marketing company to say, you know, we've got a quarter-page advertorial. It's 8000 pounds. Okay, can I have two? No, no, no way. As you know, I'm a small business. There's no way we can afford anything like that. But I'm interested in the concept, talk to me about it. And he sent me the article. I hadn't looked at it. And then I said, 8000 ridiculous. And you had three and a half thousand. I said, Wow, there's a discount for you. And I said I'm really interested, when's the deadline? And he told me when the deadline was and I said, Well, I need to have a think about it. I need to have a chat with the directors on their new director. I need to have a think about it. And he came back to me: The date for deadlines ledger What are your thoughts? I said I want to do that. But what's your very best price? 1500 pounds we're going to 1.2 million homes I'm really scared now Alex. NET today because we were just trying things a little bit out of the box. We're prepared to negotiate, we want to build relationships. He wants us to advertise in the future. And I think Yeah, what's a 8,000, 1500 pound discount that's a pretty good discount so if you're out there and dealing with agencies and papers, kids sticking to your guns negotiate to be a bit cheeky and wow, you can find yourself in positions you possibly think it would be.Alex: That's fantastic, or you will have to let me know how that goes on LinkedIn because I will. I'll add it to the outro of because it will be by the time we get this published so that all you'll kind of know what's happened with our Stuart: Yes, yeah.Alex: We'll do it with a bit of time travelling. Stuart this has blown me away genuinely, the amount of value you've given. I'm really excited to get this live and share it with everyone. And it's been great to hear what 2019 has been viewed and I'm really excited to like, I don't want to wish my time away but I'm really excited to see where you are this time next year.Alex: Yeah, no it's gonna be exciting in May and yeah, I really appreciate you. You asked me to come on this because the value bombs thing I've never even heard of. But yeah, I like coming up with new ways of doing things. And I really enjoy sharing those ideas. Because, you know, we know active release advisors in this country is my enemy or my competition. The enemy in the competition is people who are saying that equity release isn't right for people and by us why it's right for people and as educated people, we will you know, what is that lovely phrase? A rising tide lifts all ships. And that is what we're trying to do here.Alex: Fantastic. Love it. Love it so much. So awesome way to end this, Stuart. I really appreciate your time. Let's definitely do this again next year if not in kind of six months.Stuart: Great.Alex: All right, Stuart. Thanks again.Stuart: Yeah, all right. Thanks again, mate.Alex: There we have it. That was my chat with Stuart, an absolutely great guy. He's the first equity release advisor to be featured on my new podcast, the equity release podcast, which will be out now as well. It's kind of out I'm recording this on the week of it launching. So by the time this is live, it will definitely be out. So check that out if you haven't already. And I will see you next time. And in fact, I'm recording this a bit early. And I'm a little bit worried about the outbreak of the coronavirus kind of outbreak affecting a lot of events. So as I record this now, our event is going ahead. And this should be published on the 23rd a couple of days before our event. So hopefully fingers crossed touchwood I'll see you in a couple of days if you come in. If, if it's not happening, and I haven't had the chance to re-edit this podcast episode, that's a bit confusing but hopefully I will be seeing you in a couple of days. See you there.

Hello, and welcome back to the lead generation for financial services podcast. This week we have got an old friend, Jodie Stevenson. Almost a year ago when we had our first podcast interview and that went to be the number one downloaded episode of last year.For every enquiry, she gets the leads, CRM, check for notifications and will schedule a chat with her client. And to make sure that she's on top of everything she uses a blank sheet of paper and knows exactly the template and just writes everything and gets it organised. She does that for every client until she runs out of paper. Recently she bought a notepad by Rocket Book. It is reusable, can automatically scan, upload to dropbox, digitally file, and then wipe clean and use again. And again.And if you happen to look for something like a file created 6 months ago, Rocket Book can easily find it for you and locates it in your dropbox file.Cost is £34.99. They've done microwavable one as well where you write in it and put it in the microwave and it will erase everything. It's a huge impact environmentally and it helps save a lot of waste.Transcription:Alex: Hello there, welcome back. And we've got an old friend with us. This week, we're catching up with Jodie Stevenson and it was pretty much a year to the date that we had our first podcast interview. And it went on to be the number one downloaded episode of last year, and of all time, so people talk about her a lot, actually, when they've, I think it's one of the kind of the earlier episodes that people sort of pick up on because it's one of the first mortgage brokers that we interviewed, and they've come on to become the most popular episodes. So I really enjoyed catching up with Jodie. So let's dive straight in. Hello, and welcome back to the lead generation for financial services podcast and I can't quite believe it's been a whole year since we last caught up with the one and only Jodie Stevenson. How's it going?Jodie: Thank God it's one and only. I can hear my mom saying that, thank God.Alex: We were just saying, how was it? You were like, no, it's nobody You know, it could have been a year but it has.Jodie: But then we were talking about things like, what things have had like you're like, a quarter of a person that you were then you were last year.Alex: We haven't got a video either away. But yeah.Jodie: Now you're super skinny. Don't worry, though. I'm still fat and consistent for the world. got consistent and but yeah, no, it's, that's great. There's actually been a lot of things that have really happened. So if you actually like, pile up the achievements that both of us have had in the last year. Actually, that makes sense. It's probably like a decade's worth of achievement. So yeah.Alex: It's funny, isn't it? Because you like them day by day, week or week, month or month thing you know, I haven't really done a lot. I've really improved a lot if anyone needs to literally think about doing a 360 and see Oh, this time last year I was doing this, you know, what.Jodie: Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, I taught a human to walk this year, which is, technically he taught himself. I'm taking the credit. And if he was walking funny, I wouldn't be taking any other credit for it. But like, yeah, like he's actually like, he's doing the real things. Like he's really doing things this year. Like he's, he's learning words. And oddly, he's learned the word jacket. It's one of his jackets, he calls me Jodie instead of mom, which is awesome. Yeah, so shouts Daddy, and Jodie, I'm like, thank you very much.Alex: Excellent, excellent show you love that. Because I remember obviously we had theWow, it's just a sad thing. Obviously, we had the dogs barking.Jodie: Oh yeah, Thrasher and Baker. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, that happened in a bowl we got em. So they went to live with another Basset and Mum, basically, because we were part of a really good dog network. And so they went to live with this lady who's got like four others and they are just they are so happy. I don't even think the fact they're like maybe because yeah, they live on a farm now and there are loads of dogs there and they absolutely love it. And so yeah, that was a yeah, that was sad but i think i think we could be kind of at the point with you could hear how chaotic it was in the background. They were just like, they were just like, let's go for a walk. Let's go here and I was like no. And so yeah,Alex: It is. Yeah, having a child, a human is a lot I wouldn't have been able to do with pets.Jodie: Yeah, but pets that I had created my own problem with the pets because it was too small of a house, too big of dogs, and not enough boundaries between anyone you know, the dog slept in bed with me and it just wasn't, you know, it was a recipe for disaster. And luckily they've gone somewhere where they are even further mollycoddled than they were with me. So they're there, they're even better off now. I think that's really it's a really big lesson as an adult when you make a decision that's going to hurt you and only hurt you, but it's going to help someone else. So the dogs were going to be better off. I was going to be sad. And I had to make that decision and be like, Okay, well, I guess I'll just be sad then because they're gonna be happier. Real adult learning. So yeah, it was super sad like I was gutted about it, but I think it was the right thing for them.Alex: I know, absolutely. Do you know what I was just looking up while you're telling me that, so I thought I better just check because I knew yours was a very popular sewed for a while it was the second most downloaded? But you want to know something quite exciting that it was the number one downloaded episode of all time.Jodie: Really? That's amazing. That's awesome. Yeah, you know, it's my dulcet tones. It's my lovely calming accent that ASMR of mortgage advisers.Alex: Say well, I would like to say part of the credit of doing something super exciting with the title of like a mortgage broker generating their own leads doing blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'd like to take a little bit of credit for that.Jodie: That's okay. You can.Alex: I'll take 30% of the credit. Jodie: Yeah. Alex: That's the number one so you'd be there. So David Thompson. So Gary was seventh, and then you don't talk to a second, Me and Tom doing an episode were third. We should have been first you know, that's an absolute disgrace. You got ash, Ash ball and fourth. So what was interesting actually the top, the top five are not if you take out me and Tom, the top five are all brokers. Jodie: Okay, cool. Alex: So now, you know we've had a lot of marketing experts on dishing out marketing advice. One thing I've learned over this year is that actually getting people like yourself and hearing your stories is what people are interested in. Jodie: Yeah, what do you know what though it's something that I found throughout my life and we had at the bank, we have people who would come and work for us. And you were like, university graduates and they'd come in on a graduate course or something, they'd come straight into management. And the rest of the bank was just like, nope, don't I don't want to know anything this person's got to say because you haven't lived this life. You haven't come from the ground up. And this, you know, it puts there's a lot in it. There really is I can sit there and say, Look, I know how to market for mortgage advisers because I am a mortgage advisor. Alex: Yeah.Jodie: I'm marking all myself. And this works rather than someone you know, just coming in and saying, This is what and we could probably be doing exactly the same thing. Alex: Yeah., no, absolutely, absolutely. I think it's, it's being it's easy to put someone to be like, um, you know, Jodie is a broker she's doing that what you know, why can't I and then maybe they think if there's someone who's not worked in it, and it's easy for them? Yeah. It's just easier to make a connection with people that are like you. So. Yeah, that's awesome. And then you had you, as supposed you are the only one as well that we got on that was doing Google Ads themselves. I don't think I spoke to any of the brokers that have been doing Google Ads themselves so are you still on your radar? He's still doing that. Is that anything else overtaking it, or Is that still the number one.Jodie: Now, I mean, I obviously had a baby. So there was a period of time where I wound it down. And I've continued to supply leads. So I still had a handful of loyal clients who just kind of kept buying from me over that period, but I stopped taking any of my leads. And so for about six months, I kind of just backed off from it, and then came back in sort of the back end of last year, I think a little one's gone to nursery now. So yeah, I'm kind of back in it now. And, and it's, it's a blend again. So obviously the network that I'm with b2b, they provide me with leads. And, and I also have my Google AdWords, which, and they're just two very different types of leads. And they all have different conversion rates, and they all work but I don't think you should ever turn a lead source away and you know, if If you can, as long as you are meticulously recording how many times you did everything to in that lead, you know, did I pick the phone up and dial them? How many times did I literally put my hand to my phone? And because then you can figure out how much putting your hand on a phone makes you might be 74 P. But, we can take it right back to that.Alex: Absolutely. I think I saw there was someone a broker showing me their screen and it was like one of their self-employed brokers had only logged two calls. They were saying that this I've not been able to get out as person but it was like two calls a week apart both before 5 pm. And it was like they were I can't remember how long after it was the lead initially dropped. But it was they were reporting it but not doing enough. And I think there's a case of people not being as meticulous as you are with that. I'm not chasing it enough.Jodie: Wow. I would as always, I'm going to be going against the grain here. No, I don't have the needs. I didn't do it, man, I don't do it. Look, if you want a mortgage, I'm going to touch. Here's my number. I if they put in an inquiry, I mean I would the b2b, b2b have their own structure, which is you know that you make an X number of calls, and we have a system that sends them texts, etc. And those ones, you know, that's, that's James's method, and I use that. But for my own needs I when the lead lands, I try within 10 minutes and firing them it's straight off the bat. So I go straight in and I call him because speed stones and it always will and a lot of the times they answer the phone and go oh, oh, didn't expect you to ring me that fast. And I'm like, exactly. I give them a ring straight away. And the chances are they are still sat by the computer. And so they get that one call and then and then I'm never in the zone. And then if they don't answer, I send them a text and I say, Hey, it's me from this company. I'm bringing about your mortgage when good, that's all I do. That's it. I can't find them again. Nope, I bring them at the moment and then I send them a text and that's it.Alex: Do you mind sharing what percentage of contact right there is like what percentage of like, no contact is that you know.Jodie: my contact rate is I have this down the other day I've actually I'm mentoring someone at the moment. So I'm more in my own KPIs than I ever have.Alex: While you're looking at apps are gonna it's like two very different things going on because If you are buying leads or if you're marketing in a way that you're not building any rapport you've you've only got that quick window because they'll forget about you. But if you're marketing and people know you quite well and they've bought into already then you can wait. So I don't think everyone I always think older minute coders are always like you say within 10 minutes.Jodie: Oh, I love that.Alex: Yeah, well little phrase for you.Jodie: YeahAlex: While you're looking at apps are gonna it's like two very different things going on because If you are buying leads or if you're marketing in a way that you're not building any rapport you've you've only got that quick window because they'll forget about you. But if you're marketing and people know you quite well and they've bought into already then you can wait. So I don't think everyone I always think minute older minute coders are always like you say within 10 minutes so I love that. Well, little phrase for you. Yeah. It because it literally is because they'll because if they because there's a lot of things that are important to people at that moment, like mortgages, especially protection that is important at the minute and then once the laptop gets close, I will it was important 10 minutes ago it's not important now because this is happening. So you miss if you miss that window, I think you're missing out. A big one. But it just depends on a case by a case like how well are you have you? Like, do people know you for that one thing and they've already decided that only gonna deal with you.Jodie: No, my leads have no idea who I am mainly, my leads are very much advertised on an in a cold no company we are a company, we can find you the things you would like as your details to have a call and, and so yeah, just give them a ring or give them a quick call. And then I'll send them a text and send them an email. So send them a text and an email. And if they don't come back to me, you didn't want it that much.Alex: Yeah, I wonder though, I'd be so interested to see the numbers like because you're you've got personality, definitely. If people got to know you a little bit beforeJodie: I leave a voicemail, I do leave a voicemail. So maybe that's why I get a lot of callbacks and I get a lot of texts back.Alex: And I think people prefer to communicate in the text.Jodie: 100% of the day. I do.Alex: Yeah, I think my big thing for us this year is to give the end-user the person that wants the mortgage, give them as wide of options as possible to communicate. And not just say, it's only a callback, you have to have a goal, but it's like, how do you prefer to us to get back to that email? Whatsapp? Facebook Messenger? Jodie: Yeah.Alex: Text, phone, and then let them just I think there's a lot of leads being missed, because people are going through and there, and there, yeah, I need a mortgage or I need advice. I've got this situation, and then the only they'll fill all the details out, and the only option is a callback and they'll sort of agree to it and then they'll think but whereas if it's something like WhatsApp, then they don't have to set that timeout to have a call because no one wants to be sold to and the broker can go away if they've done a fact find on the website. If you've collected all that information, why maybe go back to them with something and then build-up to the call.Alex: Yeah, exactly. I something like I think it's a month ago. And I needed to do something with my energy supplier. And I logged in and there was like to write live chat or like live chat, but I always forget it's open. You know, when you open it, and then you just walk off, just forget you have live chat open.Jodie: I’m so confident. I'm terrible with it. So, it clicks on this live chat thing. And it was like, Oh, do you want to just Whatsapp? I was like, Oh, yeah. So Whatsapp. And it just opened a WhatsApp chat with my provider. And then they just kind of got back to me throughout the day. Alex: Yeah. So as a broker, like whether you've got advisors working for you or not, and some people don't want to give them Oh, by the way, you can get a prepaid SIM and you can have WhatsApp away. So you can have all your WhatsApp communications open on a browser window to the on as you and it's so much more organized than email as well when I'm doing a whole sort of project on facilitating WhatsApp Web for clients. We've been looking at WhatsApp chatbot as well, which is not as good as the Facebook Messenger stuff. But again, if people want to do it, we're on it because if we can get as much info on if someone and then the only thing is one, someone said their network won't allow WhatsApp communication despite it being the safest. And I could say I covered which network it was where they were like they ban any communication whatsoever knowing that WhatsApp is more secure than email. That's bonkers. But either way Yeah, that's definitely on our mind because I think a lot of people just don't want to have a phone call.Alex: See, very I'm sort of taking over this episode. So what so what else? So are you doing more of the commercial stuff on your ads before? Exactly it was commercial mortgages pretty much that you were doing last year my rightJodie: Yeah, yup. So my advert saw more commercials but I do get a lot of isolettes through it as well. And yeah, but mostly it's battleaxe for so it's a limited company and Alex: That does seem to be a very popular minute obviously with all the sort of tax changes and stuff. Yeah. How are you finding it like demand this from this time last year to now the B-word is kind of semi sorted is that affected anything or our market like?Jodie: I would say that pre-Christmas which normally December is my salon and the month where I don't do anything, and January is just like I'm continuing to not do much. Outrageous this December was, I mean, right up until Christmas Eve I was still dealing with clients and taking and taking upset on Christmas Eve. Crazy.Alex: We saw one on Christmas Day.Jodie: No..Alex: One every Christmas Day, there’s always one.Jodie: I don't even think I'll pick my phone up on Christmas day it's just yeahAlex: Yeah everyone's different so people get bored and they're like but yeah I mean I was cooking on Christmas Day literally in a second but yeah that that did happen.Jodie: yeah now I've been really busy and really really busy and very much and that's kind of what my year is about this year is understanding how to manage the famine and the feast know get tons of leads in and when you're very quiet and then you know talking to me building it all up and then they kind of all slowly come back in and then you end up with like if anything you end up with too many inquiries because then you've gone too many people coming back and it's kind of I'm trying to figure out what that nice even let's take this many leads a day constantly rather than taking you to know 40 leads a day for two weeks, nothing for another three weeks. So that's what my plan is this year is to find my sweet spot.Alex: of literally the number of leads per week per day. Jodie: Yeah, yeah.Alex: And what was taking the most time for you, when you're sort of dealing with inquiries? Where could it like, Is it like,Jodie: what's that? Sorry, packaging cases? And okay, so that's always the most time-consuming part. And in any mortgage, getting the leads is fine, cuz everything's automatic. And it's also CRM, and it's perfect. And the notification comes through on my phone, I click a button and get it's great. And, but then once and I have a chat with a client, and that's fine, and I don't. Do you follow me on Instagram? Alex: Yeah. Jodie: And did you see the space paper that I got delivered yesterday?Alex: Oh, God doesn't know if I've been on the last couple of days.Jodie: So whenever I get an inquiry, I have a blank sheet of paper. And I know exactly the template of my fact find a blank sheet of paper and I just write, write all and it's all organized, you know, left side for Mr Right side to miss it, and it kind of all ends up looking like a fact find. And so I do that sheet of paper for every client, and then I write on that until really, I've run out of paper and it becomes a client file. And then I take paper, clip it in, and then they become a file. And yeah, well, that is pretty, you can imagine I've got like 60 notebooks piled up next, which is crazy. And so I've actually bought a notepad by rocket book. And it's a reusable notepad. Alex: What. Jodie: Yeah, so you write in it. And then you get your phone, you get the rocket dog app, you scan it over, and it uploads it into Dropbox into a file, wherever you can put file names on it, and everything, and then just wipe the page clean and start again.Alex: Oh my God.Jodie: It's like actual paper and so yeah, that I'm hoping that's gonna save me a bunch of time because now it's got handwriting detection as well. So all my notes now get uploaded into a file. So when a client rings me back in six months time and says hey you know Mr Donovan, I can just open my rocket dog file and go Donovan and it will find that note pad that page of my notepad and go that's that client it might just say Donovan, ah avoid you know, but it will be and that'll be on the new anywhere I am. I can just click it'll be in my Dropbox and I can just search for that name anywhere I don't need my notepads anymore. And because it will all be on this. This Dropbox so I thinkAlex: Then 34.99 I'm just on the road getting a rocket book. Why not? Not mega expensive.Jodie: Yeah, and the efforts are hilarious. I mean, you'll really enjoy him. It's just two guys in there like, they're just having a blast making these books clearly they've done a microwavable one as well where you write in it and then put it in the microwave, and it just erases everything. And but that has a shelf life. And, and something I'm really conscious of at the minute is the impact that I'm having, you know, environmentally. There's a lot of paper in my job. So I'm kind of wherever I can, I'm avoiding a paper. Because everything else in my life pretty much I know I doesn't really have minimal impact with most of the things I use are usable things in most of my life but then in this just reams and reams of paper that I'm printing, I feel terrible.Alex: It's literally my desk at the minute. I've got these A3 papers where we spent sort of between Christmas and New Year like coming up with different ideas days for campaigns and what can be doing better and I've literally got a flood of these A3 bits of paper that I could have done in this. If they do an A3 version. I'm all over, I might get the small one anyway because I do use it like my notebooks.Jodie: What size is a4? So A3 is quite bigger than A4Alex: Yeah.Jodie: I think A4 is probably the biggest that they do but you could open both pages because it's 32 pages.Alex: YeahJodie: Maybe you could open both and just have it on there but you know if you do it small and then just blow it up.Alex: Yeah, well, it's my birthday coming up and the misses were like, what can I want I can kind of get you sort of you never want anything and anything you want you but I could just send you this thing.Jodie: Do it because honestly, I was saying that is such a good present for people. And it's the last one is the one I got and it when it gets delivered. It looks like a bag of space food because it comes in the old space bag. I feel very modern, very.Alex: Yeah. I love it with these things I always get annoyed that I didn't invent it myself.Jodie: Yeah, my dad, my dad has invented everything before anyone else did. And, every time a product comes out, he'll remind me of the conversation we've had four years ago where he invented that and he's right, you know, we have and I say, well, maybe it should actually do one of those.Alex: Yeah. Oh well, I used to work at an agency and this guy called Kazu came like a freelance designer and he just comes in, he sort of lives in our office. We used to work together and our old boss used to say that he invented Facebook before Facebook Like all the time.Jodie: Oh, I bet he didAlex: It’s in his head, but then never did the difference. Zuckerberg did something about it. That's the…Jodie: I think I invented iPhones and I definitely think I did. I had all the passion for an iPhone, in my mind. Alex: Yeah. Jodie: But it just was the translation that I just, you know, probably by the time they came, you know, when I'm thinking of and they were probably 10 years in development anyway. Alex: Yeah, exactly. Jodie: So though they'll be imprinted in our fingers soon.Alex: Really? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, other than digital notebooks, what else is new?Jodie: So yeah, my digital notebook is very new. I'm mentoring somebody.Alex: I was gonna say you mentioned it earlier. Yeah.Jodie: I believe she found me on your podcast.Alex: Well, do you know that happens a lot. This podcast doesn't cost me a lot of money. It cost me time. I don't make anything from it. But I seem to have made like other people. Like some really good so there's like, lots of like, pretty much every guest I've had on saying so and got in touch. We'd like to do this. Amazing. That's great. It's brilliant that I always find it bonkers that people actually listen. And they still listen. And people actually do stuff out of it. So that is.Jodie: I probably get one or two messages a month that say, Hey, I heard your podcast episode. And I'd love to have a chat with you about what you do. I'd love to buy some leads off. Alex: Amazing. Jodie: Yeah. One or two a month at least.Alex: Well, I was just looking at when I looked at your episode stats, I was like, Oh, this has had eight downloads in the last week. And I was like, well, that's like one at one a, obviously, more than one a day and it was over a year old. Least not being advertised. People are picking it out. So yeah, I mean, that is amazing. Amazing to hear. And then I say I didn't get anything out of it. I mean, we get inquiries all the time. I don't ask everyone where they come from. But that's cool. So how's that mentoring? Say what's in terms of the minute you mentoring them on, are they on like everything or just marketing? Just Google Or literally the whole, the whole.Jodie: So initially it was a marketing job really, that she just wanted something to learn. And as we kind of got talking, it just kind of organically became, we were both in a really similar position actually in our lives and her kind of wants to be in the same sustainable situation that I'm in where we can have our children and be the mums that we want to be and run a business that we want to run without having to sell Aloe Vera. Or, you know, these ridiculous shapes that people sell or anything like that. It's just a true Korea and true business. Alex: Yeah. Jodie: And which is lovely to see that people look at me and think, you know, that that's an aspirational and Korea, which is, you know, it's great. So she approached me and I said, Look, you know, I'd love to expand outwards and as well not just physically but potentially for my business. Well, but yeah, let's, you know, let's, let's do it and let's just kind of cobble through it together. And so that's kind of where we're at. She's taken a leap of faith on me and I have to leap of faith on her and we're just trying to figure out how that works. And so that's where we're at. I'm kind of guiding her through how I set up myself. And then we would slowly integrate her into her own being our own broker. And eventually, she's just been doing it a few months now. We've had Christmas, so it's been a little, you know, nonstarter over Christmas, but she's doing amazing, she's got 10s of thousands of pounds in the pipeline, which is crazy. And you know, not all of that is going to go anywhere. But you know, even if I think we've said like, you know, roughly she probably roughly banks to bank seven grand. And I would say, out of everything that she's had through, which is just gorgeous in it, you know, take this leap into like a totally new field and then get in a big pipeline like that. AndAlex: What I love about 99% of the brokers 99.99% brokers I know and speak to also just get as much satisfaction out of like, genuinely helping people as well and they and they and they get rewarded for it. It's like what it's like, I'm almost jealous of the rewards that you guys get from helping people as well as what you get in return. It feels quite a unique kind of job that it's kind of a must to be satisfying.Jodie: Yeah, it really is and do they want and I needed it as well. I really needed it because I started to doubt my own hipe last year and you know, when you have a kid you lose your identity completely for a period of time. And I came back and was like, right i mean obviously I have my group that was on your podcast which is still it still exists but it's just because I didn't know how to help these people and you know they were all asking me and I was like I don't know just how do I do this I'm a parent and how do I do it? How do I do it? And I know me and you know conversations about that and definitely minute old minute cold is, you know, plays on my mind with these people. And so when this really naturally just progressed into something and mentor wise, I was really happy because I was like, Okay, I can do this. And, and I can help and even if all I do is just give her the tools and then send her on her way and Alex: Yeah.Jodie: Because it is, I'm growing as a person, whilst I'm helping her grow as a person. And, and it might be that she goes off and does it without, you know without me in the future and that's, that's fine. And it's just something that I think I've, I've needed to do and it's a big learning for me as well.Alex: I think as well as you learn from teaching as well, she always won't feel giving advice to someone else to do something you sort of like, I find that when we're trying to I always feel like I'm looking at stuff more. So I'm not trying to help myself, I'm trying to help other people as well. So it gives me that extra edge so we've obviously got we've got the pressure of clients that pay us and we've got we've got to deliver for them otherwise we lose them and you know, lose house and family can't eat and things like that, but also that extra edge of wanting to help other people that what they do well or not And affect me, but it always finds, since doing the podcast and doing videos and things like that, that it gives it I've probably pushed myself to learn more to help share that kind of accent.Jodie: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, I, I would have, I would have said I was very, you know, very efficient at my job. And I knew I knew exactly what to do, but actually, I just knew exactly what to not do. I knew what to avoid. I knew what I knew. And I knew I knew how to avoid the stuff I didn't know. And with this new, new starter, she's kind of expanded and been like, Oh, well, I'm looking at loads of stuff over here. And I'm like, Oh, no, I don't play in that court. But what I have to do now, so I've, you know, started doing that as well and funnily and, you know, growth, growth is, it's up and down and sideways. It's everywhere because I've had a really great opportunity as well as my father in law and my mother in law and Actually, I've started on the path to working for me as well. And right, so they're going to become mortgage brokers and buy their own rights, which is lovely. But also my dad is coming to work for me as well. And he's had a background like you had a family that had worked in. He's got some experience in it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yes. So he was a senior financial adviser for the bank that I worked for. And my sister was an advisor as well. And she's had a baby and she's going back to work in January, self-employed as well, which is lovely. And so we're all kind of doing it self employed. But yeah, my dad's come in to work with me as well. Which is great because he's the guy who kind of coached me and made me the person that I am. And now I kind of get to give a little bit back to him, but he loves me and he's going to help me from above and you No, it's going to, it's going to go everywhere. And it's going to be really nice. And it's going to build a really nice little company.Alex: Family literally a family business literallyJodie: Literally a family business. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my partner Matt, and he's always been like a rock in my company anyway. And when I have these, you know, packaging nightmares where I've got just, you know, reams and reams and reams of applications that I've got to fill in. He's just incredible. You just get straight on the computer and he's like, scans him in and, and does it all for me anyway, so I've always had him helping me. And even if sometimes it's just he just goes out with our thoughts. Leave Hello. Yeah.Alex: Yeah. Jodie: And so it's always been great and hands-on, but it's so nice that we're getting everyone else is kind of getting involved in it as well. And it's fantastic. Yes, it's lovely. It's quite a nice little family that we've got now. Really a family.Alex: Really Yeah. And I think just going back to what you said about Like growth being up down sideways my business mental talks about competitive with like climbing Everest is like the night before they go to sleep they climb up and then they have to climb back down again to like a climatized so it's always talking about the growth of that you're up and then you've got sometimes you've got to go back down to be able to push forwards again parallel so it's nobody can build a business with cute like continued growth will kill you.Jodie: Yeah absolutely. Isn't linear it's not you know.Alex: Yeah it's a graph, this graph should have these peaks where you drop down and then you that gives you the ability to then push back up again. So yes one thing is you always want like a month I always want growth, growth, growth, but the one thing he thought he taught me about was that it is normal and healthy to have no backs and I'm pushing on from there.Jodie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's amazing what you can really beat yourself up on mean on AdWords I can, I can have a week where I look at my fingers and you know, they're costing me three times as much as they did on, you know, the month before and I will really panic. And I'll go Stop, stop the ads. And you know, it's just your instinct is to stop at that point but no, no, you need to stop because there's a reason why they're coming through at this. You know, it's because people really really want it or people you know, there's a lot of competition or whatever, but it always evens out. It always evens out over the course of a year and you always end up at the same cost per click. So there's a reason it's an average, you know, you're gonna have some weeks where it's half of your normal one that you just can't look in like that you've got to set boundaries and be like, I'm only gonna, I'm only gonna worry about it. If over the course of three months, my average cost is going up and then I'll worry andAlex: Yeah.Jodie: But even then don't leave it another three months.Alex: Yeah, exactly. Is that easy? Again, because when we do it like that with Google Ads absolute minefield in terms of like, we've got one company where the cost per click can range from like quid to four quid depending on the time of day and when other people are bidding and things like that. Jodie: Yeah.Alex: There are so many sorts of and it's difficult when if there are brokers with a small budget as well, those impacts will be felt bigger than one whether someone's spending like 50 grand a month compared some of the spending 500 pounds those ups and downs have felt much bigger with the smaller budgets definitely.Jodie: Absolutely.Alex: Have you ever kind of looked at the thought about SEO being on page one top of page one for those keywords bidding on.Jodie: You mean organically?Alex: Yeah, organically. Yeah. Is it ever like, do you have SEO remorse as in like this time last year, if there was an if you knew what to do, there was a plan in place, and you could have executed it and by now a year later, you could have been position one.Jodie: I don't know, I've never really, I've never really seen the benefit of you know what, I am the person who scrolls past the ads and goes to the organic number one result, but I feel like that's the same as buying an ad anyway now, because people just strategically do things to make themselves the number one result, but it's not. It's not really, you know when you go shopping online, and it organizes things, you know, and you can do it from price low to high or whatever, whatever the default is never price low to high, its price, whatever is gonna make me the company more money. And they do it that way. So it's, you know, I don't necessarily believe personally, that the value of being number one, organically has the value that it used to. I think it just means that you're very good at SEO.Alex: Oh, yeah. Jodie: Just means you're good at getting number one on Google. Alex: Yeah, absolutely. What we find with a lot of our clients, the reduction in the cost to acquire a new client if they're getting free traffic from Google is is is the biggest one the biggest factors inJodie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In that sense, yes, definitely that it would be a cheaper option. But just for me, I feel like I didn't know that my audience is ready.Alex: What you’re doing now is work and I don't want your eye off the ball. So there's a lot of things in life like, don't if you've got something that is working, that's profitable unless you're obviously like, where you were their way or now. You don't want to change it. Yeah, I was just kind of interesting. If we're, if because you're getting those leads from Google, whether that was on your mind.Jodie: It is nice to know, it would definitely be nice to know. And, and, and I certainly, I certainly would be open to looking at it and seeing But I'm still in the same position that I was in before, which I know is always your favourite thing to hear from me. I don't need any more leads at the minute. I have to turn the machine off frequently. Alex: If you if we were to talk this time next year, and you didn't have to have the machine on at all, and they were all just coming in.Jodie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. be great.Alex: Yeah. So that was my I have a question. I should have asked that beginning. But ya know, it's interesting. And that's where a lot of we have all kinds of ads running literally, bar, no bar, none. All of them but they were the ones that are getting those. We work on SEO for all of our clients because of getting that free trial. And Google's great because it's people are like, well, like we said earlier about catching them within that 10 minutes. They're in the zone. Jodie: Yeah.Alex: Like Facebook, LinkedIn once you're there when they are in the zone and it's They haven't made the decision to go out and look for something. Yes. You've got to be even quicker with the social ads to get them But yeah, I think we're finding Google gives the best quality and if you can get it free so obviously it reduced like the possibilities cray LAUGHINGJodie: You had a podcast with Joe Mani.Alex: The thing I haven't asked because it's we have your name is coming up on my thing is Joe Mani but Joe Mani is that a self-inflicted?Jodie: Yeah hundred per cent you know what? funny because it's difficult to nickname my name because it isn't really you can't really other than Steve Oh, yeah, all coffee bit. Oh calling me like, which I don't like Joe Go. Yeah, exactly. So it has to be something. So after a while, it just became, I just used to put myself on board, you know, couldn't fit Jody on it. So I'd write j and then we'll do like $1 sign. So I was. So yeah, it's definitely a self-made Monica and that does not need to stick. Nobody knew that nickname mom. But just to go back to what you said about LinkedIn, and LinkedIn, such a funny little place at the minute. And I mean, I've turned my notifications off because it's too much, people, I don't know who in their right mind thinks that anyone is going to read a near eight paragraph-long message from a brand new connection. Either like, Hey, how are you insert name here, comma, I would really like to talk to you about insert profession here. Let me tell you a little bit about what it is that I do. It was 25 paragraphs about it and I'm like Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just never read it.Alex: I agreed at the no who's speaking to a guy the other day. And they're kind of like an agency that does that can't that I outreach but in a very different way. And he was like talking about getting them to strike up a conversation like asking a question or something to start a conversation rather than just doing a whole sales blurb is like running up to someone in the street and just shouting about your business for like, 10 minutes.Jodie: Yeah, exactly. And I way prefer, like, I've had a lot of impact on a lot of my favourite messages on LinkedIn, or people who've listened to your podcast, and they will message me with something. And, and I'll, it always makes me laugh. It'll always be something funny in the message. It'll be like, Hey, I heard you on the podcast. And then they'll just say something hilarious. Along the lines, I think because I give a sense of like and look for a laugh. And they'll always always have a laugh. And even if all we do is just say, uh, you know, I'll say thank you very much. And I'll see Say that I mean, uh, you know, I mean a deadly baffle for number one. So please be free to download it 400 times.Alex: As much as we've done it. Jodie: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I'll send you all your five pounds in a minute. So we're at and, but well, you know, we'll have a laugh and we'll have fun and that's what I think that's what LinkedIn should be is a place to find like-minded business people to do business with. And to Hulu, and not to get too caught up on being everyone's cup of tea. Alex: Exactly, that's Yeah, if you're vanilla, like the, someone was asking me about, Tony, have you seen Gary Vaynerchuk?Jodie: Yeah, I love Gary Vaynerchuk.Alex: Yeah, but he is Marmite, you know. That's why if he was vanilla and trying to get everyone to like him, he wouldn't have the following that he has. So Jodie: Yeah.Alex: Pretty extreme example, obviously. But yeah. Like being yourself is.Jodie: Yeah, I'm a marmite well, hundred percent a marmite. And people literally do like me or they do not like me. And it's and you know what, I used to really struggle with that but now I'm just like, that's fine. There are plenty more people in the world and I like to be alone. I like to warm people up a bit I am a little bit of a troll by nature and I do like to sort of tickle people a bit, particularly on LinkedIn. And somebody put something at Christmas. I hate the boastful nature of Christmas. And I don't think people talk about the presence that golfing kids run said. And so I was on LinkedIn at some point. And this guy was like, What do you get the guy who has everything, and I think I responded with haemorrhoid cream. And if you say you've got everything, have you got a spare tenner?Alex: Yeah, brilliant.Jodie: Yeah. You know, I like to sort of make fun of people a bit but I think Yeah, LinkedIn has got to change to become a bit more. I think you've got to be aggressive with who you let in your circle on LinkedIn.Alex: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've really filtered.Jodie: Yeah, remove connections, remove connections. Yeah. Are you within a geographical distance of me that we can do business if not remove connection?Alex: Absolutely. I think it is a great platform and I'm slowly being marmite like I don't I put a photo on I think was yesterday and I've got I got bought two notepads for Christmas one says the Archbishop of Canterbury and the other thought of this as a warning Bantam merchant, proper cringe but I just took a photo and said I've got a really important meeting with a top dog Fs company but which notepad I never would have done that before because it's like, oh, I should be professional or not have a but then I think I've made more a double business got more friends out of LinkedIn and connections from being myself and not worrying about not being too professional or worrying about or not worried about anything actually other than just being sad.Jodie: Just don't do it. It's, you've got to you've just got to be yourself. I mean, you really have to just be yourself. My favourite people in the financial industry are you. I can smell I can sniff out a metalhead in a crowded room. I just know him. I know the people who you know they've got like a slipknot tattoo, I just know it. And I like a Rolodex of metal you know metal aficionados who are in the financial industry, and that's one that they're my people. So I love those people. And but then also people who, who have a criminally, you know, offensive sense of humour. That's, that's Matt der max. People so if I find a particularly funny person who also listens to, you know the same sort of music as me, you know that's a relationship for us. So if you're out there and you want to be my BDM please message me on LinkedIn and if you want to talk slipknot and deals let's do it let's I'm in the market for it.Alex: I'm really looking forward to someone opening a message or connection requests or doing some sort of reference or, or something like if you get that please do a screenshot and send.Jodie: I will put it on a T-shirt. Promise. Alex: Yeah, brilliant. We have been chatting for 50 of your English minutes Wow. Wow, it was like three.Jodie: It really does. Alex: What have we not discussed?Jodie: I think pretty much it and we've done exactly what I've been taught not to do there with it. We haven't done politics or what is it politics and religion not covered? That's good.Alex: We could do that next year. Yeah. Jodie: Okay. Yeah, definitely.Alex: It's so good to catch up with you. I can't believe it's been a year. It. It's absolutely bonkers. Yeah. And it's great that people are still listening to your original one. Still getting in touch with you. I can't believe I've been involved in something that makes that happen. I find that bonkers.Jodie: It's not the first situation that's gone viral for me. And I'm sure it won't be the last. Alex: Yeah, what was, go on spill it.Jodie: I'm not going to give you my medical records. No, I'm joking. And no, I put a few in. I often go viral actually. And I did it. I did a bit of a famous post about mediums A while ago and my disdain for the role of BDM. Right. I've always said, I stand by it. I don't think it's a role that that is relevant. I don't think it's a helpful role. For mortgage advisors when it's one person I think it's unfair on the person. I used to hate BDM but now I hate whoever makes a BDM do their job. I hate them. It's and it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable. You just need a call center that deals with those. But yeah, I did them almost like an X factor of BDMs. Once I put up that I don't like BDMsms and I refuse to use them. I actually completely refuse to use them now. I did have a few people who were like, let me prove you wrong Let me prove you right like so and so and a few of them did. Yeah, pretty much funny Penny Paul. But yeah, I got I ended up with quite a few connections through that who appreciated my angle which is Look, I want to know now the answer to my question, not seven o'clock at night when you've got home from I've been 16 coffees all day when you finally Got to read your emails. Like, the deal is with someone else at that point. It's, you know, it's crazy. But yeah, that was another thing that went a bit viral as well.Alex: Fantastic. So, if people haven't heard the first episode I'm following you know, I'm following you on Instagram. Jodie: Yeah.Alex: Where? Where? Where is that? Where's the BDM slugging going on?Jodie: Oh, it's on LinkedIn. Oh yeah, LinkedIn it's a really old post now I think and what it did it did get some traction and but yeah, you can find it on LinkedIn my Instagram is not a professional arena in any capacity it's just me but maybe yeah, maybe that's what I should do. Maybe I should start an Instagram for work. ItAlex: It should be one on one in one on the same.Jodie: Do you think?Alex: I think people buy from people.Jodie: I still talk a lot as a business on my Instagram, I just it's not like a business Instagram.Alex: I do not use my company Facebook page, my company LinkedIn, my company anything is all via me. And I get more out of it.Jodie: Yeah, I think I think that's the I think it's the way to go. And I do definitely talk about I always throw, you know, one or two posts a month up on my stories. Just saying no, don't forget, don't get life insurance. Don't forget mortgages don't get addressed. And, and I always get a couple of leads off of that. And even sometimes it's just people saying, Oh, I'm really interested. And we just have a chat. And then I'll come back to me a little later and we'll talk about it but yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think you should keep it all as one brand.Alex: Nice. Love it. Awesome. I can't believe we're with them. I think we need to do it closer than a year. We need to catch up when I need to kind of get you drunk. You belong to one of our events as well so people can meet you in real life.Jodie: Wow definitely, definitely. I would love to do that and get the winter over with so I can come out as my winter cocoon. And yeah, but definitely Yeah, just invite me along I think you went to Did you go to u printer?Alex: Yeah, yeah it didn't just go It was on the stage.Jodie: Exactly. I think I need to go.Alex: It is an amazing event.Jodie: Yeah.Alex: Really good. Jodie: I should definitely make it to some sort of physical social interaction at some point in my life and stop the piano. Avoid at the end of the phone.Alex: We've got our events in March there's gonna be a load of brokers there in the lovely Peterborough March the 26th. I will send you a link.Jodie: March is pretty clear for me. So where I could probably squeeze you in. I’ll try my best.Alex: I will. Fantastic, awesome. All right, cool. Well, let's do that let's meet properly in March.Jodie: Yeah. Alex: Let's speak again soon. And I'm loving that you get in the family involved and things are growing and I like your partner helping you out with every I was like visualizing oh no exactly what it's like having a kid ourselves. But yeah sounds like it sounds amazing and I'm glad everything's still going really well for you.Jodie: Yes Yeah it's great. It's all a learning curve and to sayAlex: Oh god yeah Jodie: We’ll see, you never know listen if you know God but this is me on record now all of you all my family members are as fireable as anyone else and I like my coffee with sugar in it.Alex: I'm going to use that clip to promote this episode.Jodie: I love it.Alex: Fantastic. What an amazing note to leave on. Thank you so much for spending your time with us again, as amazing. And let's see if you can be the number one episode of 2020 as well. That'd be pretty cool. All right, thanks very much. Bye-bye.Jodie: See you later. Bye.Alex: And there we have it. There's my chat with Jody Stevenson. It is so good. catching up with her. And it sounds like businesses growing was great that she's kind of getting people involved now it's becoming a proper family business. So that is awesome. So she's got a lot of work to do to see if we can get her as the number one download episode of 2020. We'll see we've had a lot of amazing ones. some incredible ones coming up too as well. So don't forget our event, March 26. Only a few weeks away now I literally got a couple of tickets left. It'd be great to see you there. If you need any more information, go to the lead engineer, click on the conference tab, or details, their agendas all kind of finalize all speakers are on there. We've got loads going on. I will see you next time.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Danny: So, we've been talking a lot about food. Do you have a favorite restaurant?Alex: Yeah, I do. I haven't been there for years, but it's still my favorite. It's called The Little SnailDanny: The Little Snail.Alex: And it's a French restaurant, and it's in this small coastal fishing village down the coast. It's kind of funny because it's a great restaurant and you kind of expect it to be in a big city. It has really good French food, but it's in the middle of nowhere.Danny: So, what's the decoration like then? What does it look like?Alex: It's cute. It's very cute. I haven't been in many restaurants in France but it's kind of what I imagine a French restaurant would look like, you know like , there's just a few things hanging on the walls and very simple decor, and it's just kind of cozy like a country town.Danny: Cozy! Sounds nice. But how's the service?Alex: Oh, it's okay. You won't starve. They don't have lots of staff, so it can get quite busy and you're gonna have to wait a while, but you know, when the food arrives, it is so good that you do not care.Danny: Really? What's the food like then?Alex: Ah, well, I just love French food. It's my favorite cuisine and I usually can't afford to eat it however, but if do you like traditional French food, it is great.Danny: Traditional French food? What's that like?Alex: Well, usually I get some kind of meat dish, maybe a quail or kind of another bird or something, and there's usually a really delicious sauce that might be made from wine or cream and herbs and that sort of thing.Danny: Sounds really nice.Alex: It is really good. It's delicious.Danny: So you said you can't really afford to eat French food. What are the prices like ?Alex:Well, the Little Snail is good compared to a French restaurant that you get in a big city.Danny: Really?Alex: Two people could eat there and have a really fantastic French meal for maybe about eight dollars, which is as I said, really good French restaurant.Danny: Really?Alex: That's for two.Danny: For two?Alex: Yeah.Danny: So is there anything special with the place?Alex: Actually we used to go there when I was working. We would go on these business trips and my boss would take me and my other coworker there on the Friday night as a kind of thanks-for-working-hard reward. And we always used to have, I think it's called ------ I've forgotten. My French is terrible, but it's this amazing dessert, which is kind of made with pastry, and has a sweet kind of custard creme inside.Danny: Everyone loves custard. Sound deliciousAlex: It's really good. I can't wait to get back there.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Danny: So, we've been talking a lot about food. Do you have a favorite restaurant?Alex: Yeah, I do. I haven't been there for years, but it's still my favorite. It's called The Little SnailDanny: The Little Snail.Alex: And it's a French restaurant, and it's in this small coastal fishing village down the coast. It's kind of funny because it's a great restaurant and you kind of expect it to be in a big city. It has really good French food, but it's in the middle of nowhere.Danny: So, what's the decoration like then? What does it look like?Alex: It's cute. It's very cute. I haven't been in many restaurants in France but it's kind of what I imagine a French restaurant would look like, you know like , there's just a few things hanging on the walls and very simple decor, and it's just kind of cozy like a country town.Danny: Cozy! Sounds nice. But how's the service?Alex: Oh, it's okay. You won't starve. They don't have lots of staff, so it can get quite busy and you're gonna have to wait a while, but you know, when the food arrives, it is so good that you do not care.Danny: Really? What's the food like then?Alex: Ah, well, I just love French food. It's my favorite cuisine and I usually can't afford to eat it however, but if do you like traditional French food, it is great.Danny: Traditional French food? What's that like?Alex: Well, usually I get some kind of meat dish, maybe a quail or kind of another bird or something, and there's usually a really delicious sauce that might be made from wine or cream and herbs and that sort of thing.Danny: Sounds really nice.Alex: It is really good. It's delicious.Danny: So you said you can't really afford to eat French food. What are the prices like ?Alex:Well, the Little Snail is good compared to a French restaurant that you get in a big city.Danny: Really?Alex: Two people could eat there and have a really fantastic French meal for maybe about eight dollars, which is as I said, really good French restaurant.Danny: Really?Alex: That's for two.Danny: For two?Alex: Yeah.Danny: So is there anything special with the place?Alex: Actually we used to go there when I was working. We would go on these business trips and my boss would take me and my other coworker there on the Friday night as a kind of thanks-for-working-hard reward. And we always used to have, I think it's called ------ I've forgotten. My French is terrible, but it's this amazing dessert, which is kind of made with pastry, and has a sweet kind of custard creme inside.Danny: Everyone loves custard. Sound deliciousAlex: It's really good. I can't wait to get back there.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Danny: So, what kind of clothes do you like to wear?Alex: I like to wear casual clothes. And that's why I really don't like what I have to wear to work sometimes because it's just not what I would normally wear.Danny: So what do you normally have to wear to work then?Alex: Oh, I have to hear a tie and kind of like suit trousers and sometimes a suit coat.Danny: Really?Alex: Yeah.Danny: Even in the summer?Alex: Yeah, even in the summer. It's basically the company policy that we look business-like. It's crazy. You know that time of year is really hot. You're sort of waiting for the train, and you're sweating and it's just, ugh!Danny: You want a change of clothes by the time you get to work.Alex: Yeah, it's almost like you need a locker full of new clothes by the time you get there.Danny: I know the feeling.Alex: Maybe I should just wear, you know, like sports clothes, and running clothes until I get to work and then change.Danny: Good idea. So do you keep you clothes for a really long time?Alex: Much longer than my wife would like me to keep them. She's always saying to me, "Just throw that out. It's worn out." "Oh, I like that one." She buys me new clothes but I keep wearing the same ones.Danny: So, you wear them until there's holes in the knees and the pants.Alex: I always have likes seven different shirts I could wear, and maybe four pairs of pants and I always wear the same ones.Danny: So, where do you buy your clothes when you go shopping?Alex: Oh, this is the great thing about being married, I don't buy clothes anymore. My wife buys my clothes.Danny: Really?Alex: And she's a really good shopper. She knows my size, and she --- well, there is only one problem. I don't always like what she buys, but I never tell her.Danny: So how many times a day do you end up having to change your clothes? You say you have to wear this suit to work, and then you end up sweating. Do you have the opportunity to change?Alex: No, not at work. But once you get to work in the middle of summer, the air-cons on, the air-conditioning's on, so it's not too bad, but by the time I get home from work --- and I usually don't have a bath until later, and I always have to give my work clothes off. I just can't wait to get my work clothes off.Danny: So about once a day.Alex: Yeah, basically.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Danny: So, what kind of clothes do you like to wear?Alex: I like to wear casual clothes. And that's why I really don't like what I have to wear to work sometimes because it's just not what I would normally wear.Danny: So what do you normally have to wear to work then?Alex: Oh, I have to hear a tie and kind of like suit trousers and sometimes a suit coat.Danny: Really?Alex: Yeah.Danny: Even in the summer?Alex: Yeah, even in the summer. It's basically the company policy that we look business-like. It's crazy. You know that time of year is really hot. You're sort of waiting for the train, and you're sweating and it's just, ugh!Danny: You want a change of clothes by the time you get to work.Alex: Yeah, it's almost like you need a locker full of new clothes by the time you get there.Danny: I know the feeling.Alex: Maybe I should just wear, you know, like sports clothes, and running clothes until I get to work and then change.Danny: Good idea. So do you keep you clothes for a really long time?Alex: Much longer than my wife would like me to keep them. She's always saying to me, "Just throw that out. It's worn out." "Oh, I like that one." She buys me new clothes but I keep wearing the same ones.Danny: So, you wear them until there's holes in the knees and the pants.Alex: I always have likes seven different shirts I could wear, and maybe four pairs of pants and I always wear the same ones.Danny: So, where do you buy your clothes when you go shopping?Alex: Oh, this is the great thing about being married, I don't buy clothes anymore. My wife buys my clothes.Danny: Really?Alex: And she's a really good shopper. She knows my size, and she --- well, there is only one problem. I don't always like what she buys, but I never tell her.Danny: So how many times a day do you end up having to change your clothes? You say you have to wear this suit to work, and then you end up sweating. Do you have the opportunity to change?Alex: No, not at work. But once you get to work in the middle of summer, the air-cons on, the air-conditioning's on, so it's not too bad, but by the time I get home from work --- and I usually don't have a bath until later, and I always have to give my work clothes off. I just can't wait to get my work clothes off.Danny: So about once a day.Alex: Yeah, basically.

Margaret Cho and Far East Movement joins us for the forty first episode of "Fun With Dumb" - A weekly podcast showcasing musicians, comics, artists, actors, k pop stars, chefs, and people from all walks of life!  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkZHRwJ7aEj_52D0Jkb6X5w Hosted by: @dumbfoundead https://www.instagram.com/dumbfoundead https://twitter.com/dumbfoundead Big shout to Margaret Cho! Go follow him everywhere: https://www.instagram.com/margaret_cho/?hl=en     Intro Animation by: @yeetheeast  Intro Song by: @sweater_beats    "Fun With Dumb" Producers:  Jonathan Park  Alex Oh  Nicholas Pudjarminta Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

An untold story from Sydney's Fish Market and the Sydney's Fish Market Restaurants in Pyrmont Connect with us in an untold story just a few blocks from one of our favourite nautical bars, the Peg Leg Pyrmont. View the full images for this podcast https://eattmag.com/podcasts/sydneys-fish-market-restaurants/ Alex from the Sydney Fish Market, a local fisher himself, shares a few secrets beneath the glisten and gleam of the Sydney Fish Market Restaurants. Join us in our latest Sydney podcast on a stroll through the Sydney Fish Market. We join Alex one of the fish market tour guides whom we meet excitedly admiring a fish as the sun rises across Blackwattle Bay. Alex, who has been recently featured in Time out explains The Sydney Fish Market is open every day, except Christmas day. The Sydney Fish Market is also one of the most diverse markets on the globe and could be just second after Tokyo's Tsukiji fish market famous for its astounding display of seafood and the pre-dawn tuna auctions A touch on the Dutch Auction system In the first part one of our podcast interview with Alex, he explains how now the selling and buying of fish runs of a Dutch Auction. Also that technically for auction fans it's an open descending price auction. Auction prices even start at the three-to Five dollar price range above the data price per kilo. Buyers come from across the Asia-Pacific region who sometimes have less than a few seconds to make a decision. The auction floor can have over 100-plus varieties of shellfish and fish on any given day. Cullen made his way carefully onto the auction floor with his guide carefully steering him through the hundreds of new crates of fish and seafood among the ice and the excited sounds of constant clicks made during the bidding on the keypads of all of the bidders. Chilled somewhat by the early morning thaw after Cullen's extensive tour we join Alex again where he shares his love of fishing and some of his “pretty much foolproof tips on cooking fish”. A standing roast recipe for a fabulous fish dish He then shares his perfect standing roast recipe for a fabulous fish dish, so the fins go crispy a great secret straight from the marketplace. His gives us great tips on what to try to around this time of the year and shares with us a cheeky story about the best part of any fish. Alex also advises Cullen to dig deep and to trust our instincts when choosing fish and seafood by “getting something that appeals to you”. And he shares his most valuable insight into the best lunch at the fish market as one of the ultimate foodie meals in Sydney and perhaps fact across the country. SFM is the largest market of its kind in the Southern Hemisphere Sydney's fish market restaurants features a range of restaurants and cafés, a bakery, butcher, gourmet deli, greengrocer, bottle shop, fishing supplies store and gift shop. Retail stores at Sydney Fish Market include : BLACKWATTLE DELI GREGORY'S BREAD FISHERMAN'S FINE WINES FISH MARKET CAFE CHRISTIE'S SEAFOODS WATERSIDE FRUIT CONNECTION FISHERMAN'S WHARF SEAFOOD RESTAURANT NICHOLAS SEAFOODS SUSHI BAR PETER'S FISH MARKET DOYLE'S AT THE FISH MARKET DE COSTI SEAFOODS SALTY SQUID SEA EMPEROR SEAFOOD RESTAURANT & OYSTER BAR VIC'S MEAT MARKET MUSUMECI SEAFOOD CLAUDIO'S QUALITY SEAFOODS KIOSK ICECREAM & COFFEE Find out more about Sydney's fish market restaurants Boutique Brunch Tour behind the Scenes at the Market Hi, it's Cullen here from the EATT Magazine Podcast, and I'm very lucky to be joined by Alex Cullen Thank you. You're the tour guide here at the Sydney Fish Market, and I wanted to ask you a few questions. As I was really lucky enough to be able to come in and have a look at the, I guess I would call it the auction floor, the floor where people bid for fish, and that happens every day of the week, is that right? Alex Every weekday. So not on weekends, just Monday through to Friday. (referring to the behind the scene tours) Cullen Okay, brilliant. And when we were looking at that, there's three; I guess what I would call huge clocks when I'm not quite sure if they were clocks or not? Cullen They had timers on them, and they had lots of numbers whizzing around, and there were a lot of people sitting down beneath them looking at the boards very carefully to see what was happening there. Alex So that's our Dutch or reverse auction system. Cullen Okay. So, I think I know something about the Dutch option, but I'm sure some of our listeners might not be 100% clear about that. How would you describe it? Alex Technically for auction fans, it's an open descending price auction. So it was the system designed by the Dutch for their Tulip craze. And it was the system designed from the very beginning to sell perishable goods as quickly as possible. Cullen Okay. How does it work? Alex We've got historical sales data that goes back a decade, and that tells us in that week of the year for the last ten years, this certain species in that size and condition and we are quite specific, is worth x dollars per kilo. So if it should sell for $10 a kilo, yeah, we'll start that particular box. Three to $5 per kilo above its expected sales price. Cullen So if we were talking about a fish like Barramundi for example and so let's say that might come in at $10 a kilo. How, how would that work then? Cullen You'd go back over all that data over the last ten years and say this week, the 14th-weekend March or the 14th week of the year, it was worth $12 or would you take all of that down, and then you work out on an average, I guess? Alex Yeah, it gives us an average in a predicted, and then we started, I mean, 30% or 20% above what it should sell for sure. Cullen So let's say you might go higher and say, put it out at $14 a kilo. How does the bidding work and how does the pricing work? Alex Okay, so we started at $14 a kilo. The auction begins, and it starts counting down every revolution of that stock clock. It takes $1 per kilo off the sales price and the first buyer, the guys you could see in the stands, the first buyer to stop the auction with a press of a button has committed to buying at least one box at the price they stopped the auction house. Cullen Okay, so let's say the prices spiralling down, is that right? Cullen It goes down and let's say somebody says, ‘okay', I'm buying it at $12, and then I guess it's competitive in the sense that people say, oh well look like you know, I better get a name because I didn't know how many boxes there. Cullen Is that how it works? Alex You don't know what your competitor is prepared to pay. That keeps the prices high. That's a very important aspect of this doctrine otherwise if the price plummets, that seafood will go elsewhere next week. Alex So we don't know what their profit margins are, and they can still make a living, but those guys do pretty much to the dollar. Alex So the second it becomes profitable to someone and the harder working businesses tend to be more profitable. Alex The second it becomes profitable to someone it's sold, and we move on to the next one. Cullen Fantastic. And it looked like it was a big market today? Alex Yeah, you can safely say you saw a big market, we would have got 80 to 85 tons today. Alex I'm a fisherman, so I don't want to overestimate these things. But at least 3000 boxes over a hundred different species is a bustling day. Cullen And what makes today a big market compared to other days when it's not a big market. What affects the size of the market. Alex Sure Alex Fridays are traditionally the biggest day of the week for the auction because we don't hold an auction on the weekends and people tend to buy seafood on the weekends. It's a Friday evening, Saturday morning, Sunday morning thing. Cullen Additionally, I noticed, we met down on the floor it was a real bustle going on there. There was a tour down there? Were you giving a tour? Alex Yeah, we had a large school group from New South Wales from the central West. They had a four and a half hour, five-hour drive for them to get here. Fortunately, they got in yesterday evening. Otherwise, we would have had 30 increasingly disinterested schoolchildren staring me down. Cullen But they looked pretty interested. Alex They were fascinated. Considering they are 300 kilometres from the sea, they were all really switched on about  that. They asked a lot of good questions. Obviously, they wanted to try more seafood. We had a very engaged group out here which was fantastic to see. Alex If I'm in the kayak at two in the morning and it's in the middle of winter, and I'm getting rained on, I might begin to have moments of doubt. But then on quickly I hook up, and I'm in love again. Alex I like to fish in my kayak. I like to go camping for a few days at a time. I really would like to just get stuck in and after doing this job for a week, not talk for three days straight. But yeah, just come back all salty and happy. Cullen And so what sort of fish are you catching? Alex At the moment there's a lot around, particularly in the Pittwater in Hawkesbury, but there's always big Flathead and Whiting. Alex Caught about a 73-centimetre Flathead the other day. There is also plenty of Squid. Cullen Also, what's a favourite fish for you to cook?  What do you love cooking? Alex That's like picking a favourite child. Alex If I had to pick a fish, it would be the Pearl Perch. It's a part of the Glaucosoma family, and there's only three in it. They're scientifically known for this sweetness. Their a beautiful, bright white flesh, and you can cook it a million different ways. Pretty much foolproof. Cullen So do you cook that differently quite often? Alex Whenever I see one, I buy one. We don't get that many. It's a very small volume species. It's why you haven't heard of it. And so how would you, how would you normally cook with are? Alex Because it's a special fish, I like to make it a little bit special. I'd probably do a standing roast. We get a large lemon, cut it flat side down, and then the gut cavity will sit on top of the lemon. So score the skin, pad it dry, rub it with some olive oil and salt and then as hot as you're up and we'll go upright, the scheme goes crispy, the fins go crispy. Thus, you can eat them like chips, and then you get creamy, wobbly curds of flesh that flake off the bone and it's an upright-looking fish. It's quite impressive! Cullen How are we keeping the fish upright in the oven? Alex By plunking it on top of the lemon. If it's sliding off cause it all, it's got that gut cavity that it wants to sort of flatten down all that. But you can put chopsticks and sort of like antennas into the top of the lemon, and that rests in the gill breaks.  Alex Therefore, it just sits nice and upright, and both sides are exposed to the hot air, so it cooks evenly, and then you get to serve it upright. You can also get some wilted greens or some asparagus. Cullen Moreover, for people who are coming in the market and obviously, that's their first port of call, and then they make their way through the rest of the market. What do you think that they should be looking out for at different times that that might just appear now and again that isn't here every day that's a bit special. Cullen So to buy seafood, to take home or to have to say, here? Cullen I think both. Alex To have to take home the strength of Australian fisheries is its diversity. So everyone's heard of Snapper and Whiting and Flathead, and we've got 60,000 species in this country. Try something you've never seen before! Alex Try something like a Crimson Snapper, $10 a kilo for the whole fish. They are cousins' of the Red Emperor. They are sweet; they're meaty. You can steam them, and they'll go curdy and creamy. You can then barbecue them, and they get firm and meaty, and they cost the same as sausages. They shouldn't have to be that cheap. Alex But get something, pick it, pick it well and get it cooked to order. That's the best way to have hot food. Alex Cooked prawns – just visit all the shops because it varies from piece to piece in shop to shop. No one is the best. Use your instincts and get something that appeals to you. You can go from shop to shop, get pieces and pieces, eat it down on the boardwalk, get a bottle of wine. It's not a bad way to spend the morning. Cullen Fantastic. Just wrapping up because I know you've got to go, you have on tour coming in. I wanted to ask you, what are you having here for lunch today? Alex I'm getting mushrooms in Oberon tonight, so I'm probably going to try and keep it light. Cullen Okay, so when are you going to have that's nice and light. Alex Oh, just a half a kilo of prawns on the way out. Cullen Thank you very much for taking the time to really enjoyed being with you. Alex Thanks a lot, Cullen. My pleasure  

At our recent podcast party on 30th August 2018 we invited back three of Singapore’s top performing independent creative professionals, now business owners who rely heavily on freelancers, (Shawn Toh, Alex Oh and Satya Purna) to share their experiences as a freelancer with the next generation. Here are some of the top words of wisdom shared: “Impress yourself 10x or more” – Fanny Tham, Chief Worker It can be disheartening when you’ve worked so hard on something to experience an unimpressed client. Fanny discovered the power of this simple technique after working on 40 revisions! “You are only as good as your last job?” – Jayce Tham, Chief Businesswoman Referrals and repeat work are critical. Jayce suggests rather than disappointing a client by missing a deadline, ask for an extra day to finish up or polish the work. “Make sure they know what they don’t want” – Shawn Toh, CEO & Design Director Despite our best efforts, it can be difficult to meet the client’s expectations, especially when they don’t know what they want. To avoid this, Shawn finds he can get a clearer picture by asking clients what it is that they don’t want. “If you can do within 1 minute, why not?” – Alex Oh, Film Composer While none of us wants to be working on 40 revisions and 3-revisions is indeed the industry norm, at the end of the day we are all in client servicing. When deciding if you should work beyond the scope of your agreement Alex suggests giving your best or more. For the benefit of a returning customer, he suggests asking yourself this simple question. “Charge 20-30% above average” – Satya Purna, Founder & Brand Strategist, ZAG Studios It all boils down to money, we all have to make a living. You’re not getting CPF or employee benefits and you deserve to be paid for the benefits you can deliver to a client. Satiya suggests charging above average and then providing exceptional level service to prove your worth. “No public shaming” – Fanny Tham, Chief Worker Unfortunately, there might be times when situations escalate. Fanny suggests always seeking mediation during these difficult times and to avoid public shaming. The community is small, and you’ll be admired for taking the high road. “You can fire the client” – Shawn Toh, CEO & Design Director Perhaps one of the best privileges of being a freelancer is the ability to fire the client. You deserve to be treated with respect and paid on time for your services. Shawn recommends avoiding repeat work with clients who don’t meet their end of the deal.

“The one thing about freelancers, because you do everything yourself, means you are marketing yourself. If you're stuck in a project, most of the time your brain just focuses on what you're doing, and you forget about your networking, your marketing. So, in a sense, freelancers, as good as it sounds, you have your flexible hours, you'd be surprised to know that you actually sleep very little. In fact, you do a lot of work, sometimes more than people who are working in offices or have regular jobs.”   Watch all Freelance Creative Exchanges episodes here: https://creativesatwork.asia/fce/   Watch on Youtube: https://youtu.be/tbIRwzBKL0o   Listen to the full episode on Spotify, Stitcher or iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/sg/podcast/freelance-exchange/id1401167998?mt=2   Alex Oh, a film composer, producer, and pianist, with more than a decade of experience, is one of Singapore's most prolific and versatile film composer. His latest project is A Simple Wedding, a romantic comedy about a bride having cold feet at her wedding. In this episode we speak to Alex about his freelancing career, from starting out in Shanghai to establishing himself as a pioneer in the Singapore film industry and how he recently pursued further studies to become a better film composer. We discussed why it is important to set aside time and budget for music score in a film and the challenges of balancing our love of craft versus making a living.   - THE FREELANCE CREATIVE EXCHANGE SERIES - The Freelance Creative Exchange Series is our first ever podcast about freelances by freelancers. Every 2 weeks, we catch up with professionals over coffee at the PIXEL Studio and share stories about freelancing or anything in and around the topic. Each episode is about 30-40 minutes long and available in both podcast and YouTube formats. Hosted by CreativesAtWork co-founders Fanny and Jayce, you will find candid conversations with the creatives professionals about freelancing and the gig economy in Singapore & beyond. - Alex Oh Website: https://www.alex-oh.com/ - SUBSCRIBE - iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/sg/podcast/freelance-exchange/id1401167998?mt=2 Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgpc3wRVbypvM9pzYeGvVBQ   - FOLLOW US - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/creativesatworkasia/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/creativesatwork/?hl=en Website: https://creativesatwork.asia/fce/   Have some questions, or want to be a guest on Freelance Creative Exchange Podcast? Reach out to us at contact@creativesatwork.asia  

Alex Matchneer: @machty | FutureProof Retail Show Notes: Charles and Alex Matchneer have a great discussion that centers around routing in Ember.js: what they want to see in a router, what problems it solves, what's wrong with the routing solutions we currently have, and what the ideal future looks like in respect to routing. Resources: Episode 067: ember-concurrency with Alex Matchneer Cordova ember-rideshare react-router Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode #86. My name is Charles Lowell, your developer here at the Frontside and podcast host-in-training. I'm flying solo today. It's been a while but that's okay because I've got a really fantastic guest on. Actually, we debated this at the beginning of the show, whether this was the third or the fourth time he's actually been on but no times are too many so hello, Alex Matchneer. Welcome back to the podcast. ALEX: Thank you. It's great to be back. CHARLES: You're still at the same place that you were the last time. ALEX: Yeah. Still working at FutureProof Retail. I'm still working on bunch of mobile ember-cordova apps and that's definitely occupying on my time. CHARLES: Nice. Because FutureProof Retail has a large hardware component and we were doing a series on IoT, we were originally going to have you on the show to actually talk about that experience of what it's like to be a part of a startup and develop software that's going to be running on a bunch of devices and the unique set of problems that poses. But in the pre-show, we decided to scrap that because there's actually a topic that we're both very interested in and you've been heavily involved in lately and might be a really interesting preview as to what's coming in the Ember community and at large. Today we're actually going to go back to talking about the same subject that we talked about in our first podcast, which is routing: what we want to see in a router, what problems does it solve, what's wrong with the routing solutions that we have today. Talk about what that beautiful, ideal future that we want to live in looks like with respect to routing. You've been thinking about this a lot lately. What have you been thinking? ALEX: I'm an Ember core team emeritus and back when I was on it and I'm a lot more active, I did a lot of work on the router, particularly with how it handles asynchronously loading data when you click on links and go to different sections of your app. I spend a lot of time over the last three or four years figuring out the nice patterns for what you actually want to use if you're building out lots of Ember apps. Then kind of around that time, right after landing some cool stuff and some not cool such us query params, which has been a challenging aspect, I start working at this company FutureProof Retail that is like 90% of the Ember work that I do there is in mobile apps. We use Cordova so we're basically running these apps inside a web view, inside either iOS or Android so that we can stay with the technologies we are most familiar with, such as JavaScript and CSS and HTML and build apps using that. We can use Ember to do that. What I found was that I couldn't really apply a lot of the same patterns, all these nice conventions that Ember router gives you. I couldn't really find a way to map that onto what I need to build in mobile apps and there's a few different reasons. I got really busy with the startup, just trying to build these things and kind of went off the happy path where I really just couldn't find a way to make it look like an Ember app. One of the nice things about the whole points of convention over configuration as this sort of Ember and Rails philosophy is that, one of the benefits is that if you know Ember and know Rails, you can drop into someone else's apps as long they're following these basic conventions and immediately know how to be productive and know how it's structured, know how to make a change to it and have it maintain a convention and not just have everybody who's using some framework build these totally different apps from each other that have no shared conventions and whatnot. Everyone is supposed to be able to learn from each other, grow with each other as long as they stay with these conventions. I couldn't really find out how to stay within Ember conventions and build this mobile apps. For a long time, I just didn't really contribute too much to the Ember router at all. I kind of fell out of touch with how most people are using it because most people are building these desktop-centric apps and here I am working on these mobile apps after three years. CHARLES: What are some of the specific use cases that were just impossible to, or not impossible but presented a challenge? ALEX: The first one is which is I think is actually one of the easier problems to solve but still some challenging is that you want something that's called stack routing or stack navigation in a mobile app, which is if you're actually building a native iOS app or an Android app, they both have different names for how they provide you this. But you're thinking of things in terms of stacks. In Android, you might open another activity, which is a full frame of a page in your app and you can push it and then when you press the back button, which is built in in Android phones, it'll pop that off the stack and take you back to where you were. In iOS, they give you a UI navigation controller and let you push and pop view controllers and that is how they want you to think about these applications. That is contrasting to what Ember makes you think about, which is go and define your static hierarchy of all the different places that you can be in an app. But with stack-based navigation, you don't necessarily know upfront all the different orderings of which frames are going to be pushed onto what and you might have situations where you want to be able to dynamically push, say an 'Add a Credit Card' page to where you are and maybe it depends on some data that's been loaded at some lower level in the stack and you can't model that as nested routes in the way that you might think about it in classic Ember apps. It's a different structure -- CHARLES: Now, when you say lower in the stack, I'm curious, if you're entered in aren't you... Oh, you mean... I see, previously in the stack. Okay, so lower in the stack so you're thinking like your current position is at the top of the stack. ALEX: Right, yeah. CHARLES: I see. Now, let me just clarify this in my own head. Your Ember routing structure is ultimately realizes a static tree but at any moment, you are entered into one path through that tree so you do have something resembling a stack. It's just is it the pathways that the ways that you can actually get nodes onto the top of the stack is you're limited because that can't be dynamic. ALEX: Yeah, but even then, it's hard to describe what the difference is but the kind of stack that you're thinking of in terms of the classic Ember router map is more like you're in these different substates than you are different frames that you've pushed onto your -- CHARLES: There's a finite and fully enumerated set of next states. ALEX: Right. To be very concrete, if you have a post route and then a post show route and then a comments route under that and these are all nested in a row, then if you're in the comments route, you are in a kind of hierarchical stack that might have loaded the post that you're looking at and maybe the post call-to-action above that and the comments for that but you're still in one thing. You've just expressed that one thing in terms of these substates so that every other state that's in the parent state can share the same data loading. That's different from saying, "I'm on this page and now, I want to push another page on it and maybe tap some of the data that has been loaded on previous pages." That's more of a navigation stack in a hierarchical substates stack. CHARLES: Is the difference then, the data dependency? Because if you think of the Ember classic where you got the static tree, at least theoretically all of the data in the leaf nodes depends on the data that's above. It's not just being able to dynamically push stuff onto the new stack but it's also saying, you want to be able to push stuff that might have no dependency on the stuff further up and it doesn't need to be re-rendered if stuff further up the stack changes. ALEX: Correct. CHARLES: But sometimes it might. ALEX: Right so there are a lot of corner cases that come out if you try to model this new way that a lot of corner cases have been thought out of if everything matched nicely to this hierarchical substate classic Ember stack but not for navigation. If you want to do something that's stacked routing-based, I've had a few different approaches. At our company, we maintain a suite of different apps that are sort of retailer or grocery-centric and the first one we did, which is more popular flagship one is Mobile Checkout, which is an app that lets you going to stores, scan items with your phone and checkout and skip the cashier line, which is great if there's huge lines and you just want to buy a little handful of things or maybe in your shopping cart. But that is like any other mobile app is really conducive to this step navigation approach. Then we had to make a few apps after that such as like another app that is [inaudible] do a manual check then ordering app and other of handful things that you can imagine is might be used on a grocery store. I took the opportunity to like, "I don't really like how the routing turn out the main mobile checkout shopper apps so let's try different things." If you approaches, at least have their pros and cons without really feeling you're solving the problem and one is to maintain your own in-memory stack of where you were, every link to you, you might recall where you were and then use that logic in addition to what's in a URL to decide what transitions to make, which to use Liquid Fire for that. But already, there's these weird growing questions like, "Why are you even using the URL? Is it helping you at all?" That was the main issue with the main app that we did. The other approach was to try and not even use any of the 'router.map' stuff at all. I use the router.map to basically just create one wildcard route. You can use normal Ember to use it like '*half' and that basically collects the rest of the URL as a param that you can use to do whatever you want with. I was using that to basically pass to another, which is internally used by Ember to do the stack-based parsing like grab a little bit of the URL and then parse the param for that then grab another. Every time you could see your stack in the URL. That has its benefits but the worst part about it is that it's getting further away from Ember so any add on that you might want to use at Internet of Things in terms of which route you're in and has conventions like that you just can't use. I can't think of a good example at the top my head but it's like the further you get away from those norms, the less the Ember system can help you and on your own building your own framework. This is all to say that I think I have enough experience at this point to bring home some of the things to Ember and I'm excited to get back into contributing to Ember with this one particular thing that I'm focusing on now, which is... I don't even know what to call it. It's like -- CHARLES: What does it do? The route stuff? ALEX: It's route stuff. Actually, let me get into the other... That's what is tricky about stack routing and tricky to sort of, if you already have to go through a mental hurdle with thinking of the Ember router and as a stack of states or substates and you train your brain to think that way, it's really hard to take yourself out of it and realize that what you're trying to build with like a classic mobile navigation is almost looks like the same thing but it's really different. The other challenging problem, which is specific to our particular app is that you wouldn't think of it as a very heavily server-driven app but if you're writing an application that at any point can get a message from the server like, "Hey, your status has changed," and that state is heavily coupled to navigation of where you're allowed to be in your apps for the state of some certain model, then you're going to have a really hard time, I'd say in modeling an Ember. I have a really hard time convincing people of this until they've actually tried to do it themselves, which is why I'm going off and just building things showing people. CHARLES: You don't have to convince me because I think one of the biggest problems is the router is like the one non-reactive piece of Ember, which is unfortunate because it's essentially, what is the equivalent of the Redux store in a Redux application, where it's the state that drives literally the entire application and yet, any type of non-hash change driven updates, you have to manually manage. Every time that we've done it, it's been a problem and depends on what data, at that point you have to be very thoughtful because, at least from the highest level, if there's damage to a piece of the tree higher up, you need to realize those effects of that damage or that change all the way down the tree. ALEX: Exactly. That is a great way of putting it. This is maybe a good time to mention this thing called ember-rideshare. I've had a really hard time describing these problems to people so I figured what I would do is write this blog a few months back, a little article called ember-rideshare. It's just a given name to the kind of app that still really hard to write in Ember. It's a mobile app. It involves stack routing but the other part is really difficult about it is this problem of the router being in a silo. It is reactive but it's only reactive to that URL. Other things changes, they need to, like you said come in and patch up something else about the router in case you add some URL that is no longer able to present some model of whose status changed. That's an article on a blog that I can probably link to in show notes or something. When I talk about ember-rideshare, imagine using Ember to build Uber or Lyft and it's got just the slightest bit of the whole thing. The whole point of the app is to coordinate your client-side request of I want to ride with the server going off and doing a bunch of things and finding a nearby driver, displaying you bunch of driver locations and it'll show up. Then finally, find you a driver. It's a constant communication. Throughout that point, you can sort of imagine modeling all the different screens as routes but the routes that are actually allowed to see at any given time are heavily dependent on what is the current state of the user's current ride. But you shouldn't be able to go to a route that says like 'cancel ride request,' if you haven't requested a ride in a million of these other things. If you're an Ember developer and you think that's an easy problem to solve, you're probably thinking, "I would use before model hook when I'm entering that route to check the state of the model," and if it doesn't make sense for the route of entering, I want to transition elsewhere. That's fine. That's good if you're doing an app if the user is the one deciding where to navigate to. But then when you're on a route like that and then the server tells you that your ride is done, you can't still be on that route so you've got to have some kind of validations that is like, "This is no longer a valid route to be in. Is the user still in this route?" CHARLES: "Where am I going?" ALEX: Yeah. Before model doesn't really help you. It's this one-shot discrete event and you just can't capture all the different things. The ember-rideshare describes some of these problems a little bit more detail but that's the main issue with it. Like you said, what is actually missing about the router? Maybe it's reactive but it's only reactive to the URL, what about all these other things that are happening into your app? I think there's a handful of APIs in Ember that they're great but they're kind of siloed off in a way. If you want to make two different kinds of worlds meet, you've got to write a bunch of your own code yourself or you just have to do mentally going back and forth and being like, "I did this, so I can't use this kind of API." I did a lot of work on the Named Blocks RFC, which previously there is silos between if you're passing blocks to a component versus data, you've got to think about them differently and all the ways that you might forward that data to a different internal component, if you want to build these composable, reasonable internals, you got to be kind of split-brain about it. I feel the same way about how the Ember router works. It's only good at dealing with stuff that has to do with the URL and you're on your own, if you needed to react to data changing. That's what I'm trying to fix. Does that correlate with your experience of working on Ember stuff as well? CHARLES: Absolutely. I think that's a great way to put it. I think we've come to a consensus of the problem statement. I am curious to see a big separate query params. I'm going to throw that wildcard out there or maybe we should save it for later. ALEX: Yeah, I definitely going to come back to it. If I say all this cool stuff and I still don't have a solution to that, then what am I talking about? CHARLES: Right. ALEX: Which to be honest, I haven't thought of every single possible thing. I'm doing the thing where I talk about it on a podcast that everyone can guilt me into really finishing it. I actually really think that I'm going to finish it. I'm very confident in stuff I'm working on. I'm very excited to bring it to people but it is not all 100% fleshed out and I definitely appreciate anyone's help to those interested, understands the nature of the problem and wants to help me work on some of this stuff and like that, in Ember community Slack or wherever. CHARLES: Yeah, I'm really excited to hear it and see in what ways we might be able to contribute. ALEX: Basically, the goal is to find some underlying primitives that can model the current behavior without mistake because obviously, we can introduce something that's going to break into Ember apps. Basically, to recognize that the URL is something that goes through multiple passes of transformation, to eventually become the thing that displays stuff on your screen, from the very foundation of it, and this is the actual mini-course of what Ember router does internally because it involves a few different libraries and maybe this is a re-hash from the podcast that I did with you guys but -- CHARLES: Can I just say that there are some things that the Ember router really does right, that are fantastic? One of those things is it baked in to every single piece of data. It doesn't do the stack but in that tree that it models, every single node in that tree abstracts away the asynchrony of that node. I think that's absolutely huge so you get both the dependency enumerated like these are the things that I need to marshal the data to render myself and it's implicit that it might take some time. I might need to draw on a couple of different things to actually assemble this data so the asynchronous nature is modeled up front and it's implicit and it's there every single time, which turns out to be the right thing. The sampling that I've missed has been an excruciating void in all the other routing solutions that I've tried outside of the Ember community is that they just punt over asynchrony to you. You deal with it, not our problem and it's like, "Actually, that is the problem." Anyway... ALEX: That's a great point because if the router doesn't help you with any of this stuff at all, then it basically means that every one of your pages that you might want to render after the fact, probably has to have some loading logic like if data is loading, show us spinner. Otherwise, here's all the data -- CHARLES: Yeah, if something happen wrong. ALEX: Right and sometimes that is actually what you want to do. Sometimes you want to do these skeletal in UIs that looked like the page that's about to display but the date isn't there yet so everything is, regardless going to be wrapped in these 'if' statements, 'else' statements. I worked in ember-concurrency and some people are using that to basically move more of that loading into controllers, that's fine. If that's what you're actually trying to do and that's what you're opting into, that's a perfectly reasonable solution but most of times, chances are you're entering a route and you don't want to have to teach the entire template tree underneath it that has to handle all these different states. There's these nice ideas that work in some cases and I'd like to make them work in more cases than Ember helps with and a whole loading all the promises and the model hooks and absolutely going into the loading state are really cool primitives that Ember is going to do for you. The other frameworks, they don't try to be opinionated. They won't do any of that for you. Sounds like you ran into that with some of your React stuff? CHARLES: Yeah. I definitely did. There's just not much help when you actually want to model asynchrony. You can do it. It's pretty easy. You just implement the right hooks or model a series of actions, either with a Saga or Epic, if you're using redux-observable. But again, you have to assemble it by hand and you have to generate those abstractions by hand and you just want to have them at hand already and not have to worry about that. But the advantage, though is that generally those ones that you do have at hand or that you generate are fully reactive. If new information comes that's germane to that particular leaf in the tree or that particular note in the tree, there's no difference between the initial state and the update state. Whereas, in Ember, you got your first shot and then that data is now at rest. ALEX: Right. I definitely have been looking at React router, in particularly v4. I think it's all contentious for people to see it at first but being able to put things like in your render function, you can say, "If this data is present, something that's going to be past and be a prop or something," then show a loading spinner or otherwise, start matching these subroutes. That's really cool. That's expense that you can't look at essential map of all the states of your router can be in but that's also a real problem and if you can demonstrates that the state world is not in a separate silo than the routing world. CHARLES: With great power comes a lot of bugs. You do run into a lot of things where you have rogue matching. You have random things that are inside your view tree that are matching against the route and they just render and you have to be very careful because it's almost the difference between blacklisting and whitelisting. I see what you're saying. It could be confusing. ALEX: Yeah. I think it's definitely a tradeoff. I think if I had something like a match, I might have been able to maybe arrive at a stack routing solution a little earlier. I'm not sure about that. It's definitely something that could be handled by React router. I think one of things that React and React routers better at in general is that everything is, more or less a component that is more easily swappable or something else here. You're not going to have as many of those silos and I really do think, it went through a lot of churn and maybe, some people had trouble, maybe a lot of people, I don't know had trouble kind of following all the major versions. But I think React router Version 4 is pretty damn cool. I think there's a fullest realization of that kind of modular mindset. CHARLES: I think the biggest problem I have with it, though is it requires the view tree to model your routing structure. That bothers me. I feel like you could do the exact same thing. You could have a way to express your routes, not necessarily with a separate routing file. I supposed you could do it with JSX or something but actually have it be kind of orthogonal to your view tree. The way you can model this dynamically updating thing that can match against anything and maybe, even express it all in one place. Although once you get a big tree, it could be hard to control that. The part that I've come into most conflict and maybe who knows, maybe I just haven't used it enough, we've only got one application that we're using the router V4 on. But the fact that it's actually in the view tree, it bothers me. It's in the state objects. It's hard to adapt to Redux because that state is opaque. It's the routers controlling it and I would it to be not have to pass through React components but just be like, give me the firehose of the router state. ALEX: Right. I love what you're saying. If I'm going to bring this stuff to Ember, I can't suddenly make it work like matching within the view tree. That's not what I'm working at or proposing here. All the stuff is basically to empower that firehose to respond to more things that can drives views and respond to them in a live way, not like a one-shot async validation, only when you enter. CHARLES: Maybe this is what the problem that you're trying to solve and one of the things it's really nice to be able to match against anything inside the view tree is that Ember's rendering process of a route is very opaque. The process, by which an outlet gets connected, that's not something that you really have much visibility into. Is that a good statement of the problem? ALEX: That's definitely part of it. You definitely have to go to the documents. I think it's telling that -- CHARLES: I've never done it. I don't really know how that works and I've written a lot of Ember code. ALEX: How what works? CHARLES: How the route gets rendered, like the mechanics around, which I understand how the route object actually, you makes the decision to render its template and do all that stuff. I know it as a user but I don't know the mechanics and I wouldn't know how to extend it. ALEX: I'm not sure if the stuff I'd work on but it immediately make some of that stuff more clear. One of the goal or constraints is to really try and break down the silos. Whatever I'm about to propose bringing to Ember, I want it also be something that would be useful, possibly at the component or template or controller level, rather than just being this thing that lives only in the router's weird black box of logic that occasionally calls hooks that everyone knows about. CHARLES: Right. In a sense, I'd say that they both suffer from that same problem. I'm curious to hear about the firehose. ALEX: To actually get into what I think you're building here, we can dance around it all day and then we -- CHARLES: Just save it for the last 30 seconds of the podcast. That way there could be no -- ALEX: We're swapping JS for React router V4. Bye! It's basically this. What's happening today is that you have a URL, it's going to be parsed in a way that you've tied it to via the router map file, which every Ember app has the place to go to see all the different places that you can navigate to an Ember app, which is great. You basically taught Ember how to break your long URL string into these usable bits and that's going to give you an array of these things that internally who cares what they're called but they're called handler infos and they basically say, "The first element of this array is named application. Every Ember app has one. It doesn't have any params." The next one, it starts getting into what your URL actually is. Maybe it corresponds to the '/post' portion of the URL so that's going to be named 'post,' and that doesn't have any extra params either. Then there's this thing that is post show or something like that. That has a dynamic param because that's the part of the URL as like the '/123' and that corresponds to the post ID. It's basically, if you like thinking of things in terms of transformations or observables or mapping and functional transformations, that's taking a URL and turning it into an array of these useful POJOs of information. The goal is to keep transforming that into something eventually has enough data to display and templates and whatnot. In this giant black box of the Ember router, it's going through those transformations and then it's going to go through this long series of using these params and this useful array of POJO information, start hitting hooks on people's routes to load data. Hit before model after model, redirect all these things to give tasteful names to all the tons of validations and checks that you might want to do. You do cool things in your before model hooks, check if the current user is actually an admin to prevent them from going into any '/admin' subroute. That's a really cool place to go and it's also a great convention. If you're new in Ember app, you realize you can't go on this route. It should sort of click in your head and that sounds like they've got one of these redirect hooks to ensure that you're not going anywhere you're not supposed to go. All these things are really still to this day, extremely strong, well-designed, it went through many passes of review before it landed. I think they cater to a certain kinds of user-driven clicking around apps but they are extremely strong to this day. I think the only thing that's missing is the smell. That example I gave like checking if the user is an admin, it's a bit of a smell that is not reactive. It's a hook. If it passes, great. You're in the route. It's not going to keep on checking that. What I want to do is basically, either in addition to or as an alternative to specifying these one-off model hooks or these hooks that you, not only really just fire one time, have essentially what is an async computed property or an async validation that is upfront about things it depends on. Ember is going to be smart enough to constantly reevaluate these things as stuff changes. It can depend on not just URLs or URL parameters but it can also depend on data. If you're thinking about ember-rideshare, which again is the imaginary Ember app that it's essentially Lyft or Uber, if you have a current ride model loaded somewhere, maybe by a parent route or maybe it's some sort of service, you should be able to specify it like an async property or validation that says, "I depend on ride.state," and for all these subroutes, you would want to say that, either upon entry or any point in the future, if the state ever changes to something that I don't know how to handle that go to some default route. That would be already, particularly in my app, which is a subset of a different kind of ember-rideshare app, that would be a huge help because the only other alternative is to build a sibling-central coordinator to the router that isn't the router but has to sort of agree with it and then, every one of these frames that you might push onto the navigation stack, they have to do some little chunk of code and then invoke this logic and be like, "Did the state change? Go where you're supposed to go," and they have to do that logic. It would be, I think a great win for conventions as it has if it's a benefit to make people shout out their states in advance to empower them to shout out also their data constraints in advance so that you get things like automatic redirects and things change, I think that would be huge. I know that would immediately benefit off of it and I think it would fall in the same kind of problem solving that they worked on like Ember-related stuff which people don't realize how big a problem is until they see there's a better way of doing stuff. I think with that being there -- CHARLES: As an example, let's say that you're an admin and then all of a sudden, you got fired and there's an event that comes from a server that's this person is no longer an admin and it wipes out the Ember data store and then redirect you outside of the admin route or something like that. ALEX: Yeah, that's a perfect example. To be pedantic, I think a lot of people do hard refreshes between login/sign-off stuff but if you have it all in your Ember app, that would just happen automatically. You'd still want the ability to have more graceful transitions because one of the tricky things about having stuff driven by data is that you have this giant matrix of like, "If I'm in this state and this event happens, how do I handle it? How do I make it look well-designed to the user?" But you're not going to be able to hit every one of those constraints so to just have some basic logic that's just like, "Oops, something happened," you're not an admin so we move you to the sign-in page. For in those cases, we haven't fully filled in all those leaks. I think it would be a huge win and you can just progressively decorate things according to the common flows that people take through your app. CHARLES: You know, I'm just imagining this. Model promise, for example would be some computed property, then how would you enumerate your dependencies? Just do the mechanism that we have now? Or are you imagining something entirely new? ALEX: I don't have a strong opinion on it because the moment I start saying what that specific syntax is, more people will agree on what's missing and what we need to have, regardless and be like, "I don't like it." I'm leaning toward something inspired by a lot of my learnings from observables, which is actually we talked about last time. The whole thing about observables is that there's almost limitless flexibility as to if you're in observable, it can take that event. It has been another observable based on that thing. If a URL changes and you're listening to that via observable description, inside that, you could kick off another observable of Ajax request based on that URL and it doesn't make you enumerate all these things upfront. I think there is going to be a compromise between that. I think when you get into these kinds of problems, you run into stuff like Relay, which is familiar with -- CHARLES: I haven't used Relay. ALEX: Just the idea of dynamically collecting all of your dependencies upfront before hitting the server and asking for specific chunks of data that you need, it's a very promising idea. There's cases of just dynamicism where the data comes back from the server, then you realized that you need this other piece of data and there's no way you could have collected upfront, unless you statically wrote it upfront. I expect to find that with this approach that there's going to be some stuff where you just have to be more upfront about it. But I had a cool little strike the other day on auto-computed properties and I'll also link to that. It's a different way of running computer properties where you don't have to specify your depending keys upfront but your getter function gets passed a getter function itself. CHARLES: It's past the dependencies? ALEX: Not even that. Imagine writing a computer property and the first [inaudible] is a function that you can call to get a property off of this but also track that you've got that property. If it ever changes, it'll invalidate again. That means if you're implementing a [inaudible] in computer property, you don't have to write first name twice, both in your dependent keys and in the actual getter in your function, which I think is kind of cool. I'm trying to make that pattern work for this data loading thing so that you don't have to have this huge verbose thing. You just lift this stuff in one place. I've sensed that the magic will probably break down in some complicated cases but that's what I'm trying to run with because I think it's pretty cool and succinct and sort of the natural evolution of what people think of as computer properties. The other major constraint and this is also what we're talking about because it's one of the best kept secrets about the router or it's one of these things that everyone's benefiting from without realizing it, is that if a transition occurs in the router, everything in the router is going to be a possibly long asynchronous chain of operations that it collects all the data that it needs for the new routes to display. In that time, if something happens, if some hook comes along and has an exception, it can load data from the servers. If something happens then it just says 'transition.abort,' that's going to stop whatever transition is in place and you're going to stay exactly where you were and if you're not stuck in a partial transition state, that's pretty awesome. That's basically database atomic transaction semantics that people have been benefiting from if they've been using Ember for years at this point. But again, it suffers a problem being locked away in the router. That is a cool concept. You should be able to specify like I intend this change of the state this way and if I gave you something that is logically inconsistent or can't be fulfilled, don't leave me in a weird half-assed state that I need to somehow fix and know how to fix all the different places, where I might be kicking off this transaction. I'm trying desperately to preserve those semantics when data comes into it. One of the hardest things to do is and honestly, can be one of the hardest sells for people who are used to thinking about Ember is there's an issue of if you imagine whatever API we're talking about, it's probably going to live on the route. Some kind of hook that might be called resolve or something else, like what is the value of this context object that every function has? Is it a route? It's tempting to want to do that and maybe, that will end up winning but winning out is the best API to get people to use. The thing to realize is that there is no consistent value of this. This implies that there's a state of the world and you're looking at it and currently, these things have these values. But in the transaction phase, there is no stable 'this object' and you can wind up with some weird surprises. I know because, not actually these days but particularly, when a lot of the stuff landed and people started trying to do weird things and these transaction hooks, there's just like, "Why can't I grab the controller? The property isn't what I expected?" Honestly, all the stuff that is gross about query params because of this fundamental violation. You have something that pretends to be a property that is there today but is still driving this asynchronous thing that could fail. CHARLES: I kind of viewed this as playing an off-note in the jazz thing like you only want to reserve using this, unless you're the Miles Davis of JavaScript, don't use this. ALEX: And by Miles Davis, you just mean like the god of concurrency that's incorrect race-condition-y code. CHARLES: Right, so it's just like you've got the right reason and you can spot the one-in-a-million case, where it's appropriate. You can spot it in an instant. ALEX: Exactly. I'm not that person and I don't know too many people who are and that's not the API you want to land. I'm trying to, maybe wean people off on dependency on this because the way we've gotten around it in the past is to use again, is more discrete, get the value functions called 'get model' and 'get params.' These are all very in-depth stuff if you're pretty experience Ember developer but it's a way of getting a value from one of these parent routes when you're inside a transition and the rest the world can't see it but you can because you call this hook at the right time. It's super gross because it's just a method on a route that anyone can call in any given time, whether you're inside this transaction or not. The branching logic of, "Should I look up the data from the transaction object?" because once valid, I should have get the current value of a loaded route. It's really gross to me and it causes real problems that confuse people and causes them to write issues because they've given an API that makes them feel good about treating these things as stable objects. CHARLES: I'm trying to imagine now, just like a spike in my head. I know you don't want to get too into syntax but essentially, modeling the route tree as a set of observables, where essentially, instead of returning a promise from your model, you're just mapping an observable off of some combination of the URL state or what are the other streams of state you want to merge to realize that route. But what I'm not seeing, which I'm sure you also have the answer is the original problem, which was stack routing. What we've been talking about is making the router fully reactive like this fully reactive tree that's always on. But that problem seems almost orthogonal to the stock routing problem. ALEX: It is. It's been very tempting to combine them. Why it is such a hard problem? Because you've got navigation stack, which almost to this route hierarchy stack that [inaudible] about but they're separate so you can't really apply the same lessons. Then you've got stack routing, which is you want the ability for routes to while they're loading, reference data that is dynamically available to them. I don't have a solid answer but I would say, the one thing that I think is going to help is that you have a few options for what you want to stash how you want to represent a URL or where you want to stash your hierarchy. Actually just track it in-memory and if you refresh the page, it'd be like, "I depend on some data that I expected to be there but it's not. It transition elsewhere," which is not a great developer experience. You could want to be able to make changes and refresh the page and continue where you left off. Otherwise, URLs aren't actually used by mobile app users. But the other place that you could possibly put the navigation where event stack is in a query param because that can be fully dynamic and you can just sort of manage every single page. The most current page you've pop is just some top-level route but you're tracking the state on the side. I think if you solve the problem of being able to depend on things that aren't the URL or go through a more complex transition than what the router gives you by default, I think it would be possible to treat that query param or that thing you're stashing in in-memory as another source of data. The other thing that I want to try and make sure that this new API has is really treated dependency injection where you specify all the things that you need and you don't really care from a route's perspective where they come from. I think if you had that, that would solve a lot of problems with stack routing and where it gets data from. To be very specific, today if you were in that post '1, 2, 3' comments route and you needed to access the post model from within the comments route, you would probably do this model for post. Basically you're naming not just the model that you need. You're naming the route that you know provides it upfront, which I think is that. Actually, the real reason it's kind of the smell is that, if you ever need to change the nesting, maybe you need to introduce another level or you want to nest all that under an admin route. Then suddenly, you're asking for the wrong route name. You're not really sure all the different things you need to update if you ever change the nesting of your router. There's solutions like relative URLs that a lot of people thrown around but I think -- CHARLES: To go back in the observable world and specifically, the redux-observable world, it's like a simple map. You're just mapping down off of a global prop, you've got some tree of state and you're just mapping off... What was that like? A model hook and you're just mapping down off of that? Wherever that state lives, you're mapping to it and now you kind of slicing off your little garden hose off of the firehose. But still one huge -- ALEX: I've tried to apply observables to this problem. I don't think I've never seen the observable analogue of is this idea of dependency and injection. To model something as a stream that transforms over time, that's proven to be very useful but to sort of say, "I am an observable that expects these objects given to me," I'm not really sure what that API would look. CHARLES: I would say, just as a straw man perhaps, you have this dependency that it's a well-known location. It's a well-known name. With dependency [inaudible] in classic, it's like, "I depend on the off service. This thing called 'service:off' or whatever. Imagine that you have some pool of state and there's some key called ‘service.off' there and as long as I'm just basically basing my stream, the first thing I do is map off of this and maybe map off of another key and then combined those into a single stream, then I can be sure that I have those things at all times. If they change, my mapping function or my transformation function is going to get evaluated again. Does that make sense? ALEX: Yes, I think we should [inaudible] C without code or something. CHARLES: And maybe I'm thinking about it wrongheadedly but that would be a simple mechanism. ALEX: Could you run by me one more time --? CHARLES: Yeah. Let's say that we've got some authentication service that you want to depend on like you want to inject on it. You want to inject that dependency so why can't you base your stream off of that key? You have observable map, for example. The list of transformations that you would have to do to peel off multiple keys, I'm sure you could write helpers for it. But basically, probably if you're going to be wanting to inject multiple dependencies will -- ALEX: The problem is this. Basically, if you want to write your resolved observable, if this thing based on observables, remember that there is no this in a route because of the transactional reasons of what we've talked about earlier, what are you getting that from? You need to have something passed into you, to be like 'context.get observable blah.' CHARLES: I would just assume that it's implicit. I was thinking a bit basically, the simplest case would just be an observable that was basically taken off of the entire global state or whatever of the router or what have you. The way the redux-observable works is every single epic is what they call them is just a transformation on the global stream. Usually, the first thing that happens is they map down to the local context so the -- ALEX: Like a path? CHARLES: They have a helper like action of type, blah. You only see a subset of the actions that get maps to the Redux store. I think it's redux independent but at least in theory, every single epic is basically going off of the entire global state but the first in reality, what the first thing that happens is you're like, "I am only interested in this subset of the state," so you do a map off of the global state down to your local scope and then you work from there. In fact if you had the convention around that, you could even make that part implicit. It's like I return an observable that it's only seeing the stream of local states. ALEX: That makes sense if there's sort of canonical state of the world but what you're doing when you're transitioning into a route is trying to feel out another state in an asynchronous manner. Redux is the action causes state to change, now the state is this. But the action for type thing, I think that makes sense if you are subscribing to the world global action on this one store when you're constructing this new tentative, may not actually become the store, you're depending on values. What we need in our API is something that depends on values that are from a tentative store. CHARLES: It's similar so in redux-observable, you're mapping actions to actions and you're not necessarily mapping actions here. You want to get state into the equation. ALEX: Yeah and it's so almost observables. It's just this twist of transaction dependency injection. It sounds really over-engineered but the thing is it exists in Ember today and if it exists in a less siloed way, I would certainly benefit on it. I think everyone else would too. CHARLES: Okay. With that hand wave... ALEX: Oh, I didn't mean for that to come as a hand wave. CHARLES: No, no, no. I'm kidding because I think we actually have a lot more to talk about here and we're running out of time. One of the thing that I want to ask is, talking about redux-observable, talking about redux and stuff, have you given any thought as to what this might look as a library that everybody could use? ALEX: I basically have something that's using Ember CLI only because it's so easy to just use it as a sketch pad and get test passing but everything I'm building so far is just ES6 class syntax that can be transpiled in it to whatever. I'm actually realizing, there's a lot of overlap between some of the primitives that are involved and Glimmer so it may or may not have a pass that uses references for tracking when things change until no one to invalidate and refire these async hooks. But either way, I'm going to make sure it lives in the JS usable world and not just Ember's special object model end. CHARLES: Right. Those interfaces are pretty narrow. The things that implement those interfaces are huge and complex but the way, at least I understand it, isn't the reference interfaces themselves -- ALEX: They're really simple, yeah. CHARLES: -- Really simple. It could almost be copied and pasted and not have much maintenance overhead in there. Here's a question and this is probably getting too far into the weeds. Can you not model a transaction as an observable? Essentially, with a flatMap, you would merge in some observable into the chain that was basically a transaction of all the other observables from which it is composed. ALEX: You know, a transaction as it builds up all the new state over time could be part of the main tree and if there is an active transition, then that's future potential state that the world might become and it could be modeled as a leg of the Redux state. I think you could theoretically do that. Definitely worth a try. I don't think I would benefit too much from doing it now and I think this could be a premature optimization but I think there would be just quite a bit of intermediate object collection to express that. I think theoretically it works but how it's going to physically map to Ember in the near future, it would be harder [inaudible] in a way. There's actually a lot of stuff that is very redux-y that again, a lot of Ember people don't maybe know about because it's internal but the way that Ember [inaudible], I think since Edward brought some of his learnings of Liquid Fire back to core Ember, there's this concept of outlet state, which describes -- I'm not an expert on it -- what's rendered where and then each outlet gets a chunk. Like you said, a little piece of the firehose or garden hose, pulled off the main thing so it can just focus on the one piece of state. Those are simple objects that produce this part of this transformation process. That's kind of redux-y in the way that everything just gets a new POJO and stuff changes but it's not strictly redux, obviously and probably won't become that just because it's already good enough on its own. CHARLES: Yeah. I think it's actually good at this point to be hand wavy because the most important thing is to be non-committal about the syntax, like you said because that's when the bikeshedding begins and now it's not the phase. The phase is to come to some agreement about what is that we would love to see. ALEX: Basically, the thing is this. I think people need to realize that Ember won the bet that the URL is an important thing to build apps around and if you have a state that's representable in URL, that state should go in the URL so you can send links around and not break the web and have an app that works that's built on half-assed routing. The only thing I'm proposing is going to make that go away. It's just that there is already this giant world of stuff that's not expressible in Ember today because it is driven by state. If you make that as easy to express and as upfront to express, I think you can have shared conventions versus what everyone is building these apps that I have to do, which is to make a sort of separate router of state-aware stuff and not have to make those two things agree with each other because it's really hard. CHARLES: Right. At that point, you're writing your own framework. Maybe this is the next big thing because I feel like Ember usually has the best stuff way, way, way, way before. Now, we're finally getting to a point where everybody seems to realize that having a CLI is absolutely critical to the developer's experience and most frameworks aren't taken seriously until they've achieved that. It was the same thing with a router back in the day. I'm wondering what that next thing is. ALEX: I don't know. I don't think this is going to be it. I just think it's a good progression. I think a way forward that progress is still a pretty legit central structure to build apps around and just would be welcomed. CHARLES: When are you going to be done? ALEX: About two or three days. I don't know. I think I'm basically going to be continuing to get feedback like the way that a lot of that original router stuff came back or it's just like constantly hit people with real examples, Ember twiddles, things are just like, "Oh, yeah. That thing. That's a cool pattern. That sucks in my app. I didn't realize that until I saw this example." These things that really teach people why this is necessary because that's going to get people's urge to be like, "Well, you could just do..." Oh, you can't because the thing that's hard to explain. It's going to be a lot of that regardless and I hope that will kick off in the next few weeks. CHARLES: And the focus of that is going to be the ember-rideshare application. ALEX: I think that's a good one. This is one that everyone's familiar with. CHARLES: Have you already kind of implemented in it, like this kind of Frankenstein-ish, like this is the kind of histrionics that you have to go through in order to implement the style of routing or the style of application using today's Ember? Or have you started to begin experimentation with these new concepts and try to build out better ways of doing it? ALEX: I'm not strictly extracting it from one app. It's sort of combined. Like I said, the few different apps that we had were an opportunity to be like, "This sporadic stuff is hard." The main route recognizer approach was an example to try different stack routing pattern. But the thing that sort of working on is drawing from three different apps and slightly different takes on it. Basically, I have something that is close to being testable in one of my main apps that will be a great chance to validate if all the stuff is as nice as I think it is going to be. CHARLES: Okay. If the people want to get in touch with you, to help to contribute to the conversation or just publicly guilt you into moving faster towards it, how would they get in touch with you? ALEX: I'm at @Machty on Twitter and GitHub and also, the Ember community Slack. I think I'm going to try to get people to talk about this on channel called Dev Dx Router where it's focused on development stuff all around the router. This is kind of funny because I'm talking about this thing that I've only had maybe, 12 people take a look at and comment on and begins these conversations. I think maybe some people are going to hear this and be like, "What are you talking about?" but if it gets people -- CHARLES: No, no, no. You know, the best conversations seemed to be organized around you, man. I'm just trying to think of some of the best development conversations that I've had in 2017 and you were definitely, I would say the one who fomented them. It starts with 12 people but then, if enough people take interest and be like, "Wow, yeah. Oh, man. I didn't even know that was a problem. This would be a cool way of doing it." They have a tendency to balloon and some fizzle out and some end up with real results. Anyway, I'm looking forward to it. ALEX: I appreciate it and likewise, you're definitely one of the best people to talk about this stuff with. CHARLES: Well, I hope other people will love listening to our conversation. With that, we'll head on out. Thank you everybody if you've made it this far. As always, you can get in touch with us at @TheFrontside on Twitter or just send an email to Contact@Frontside.io. We will talk to you next week.