Podcast appearances and mentions of William Lloyd Garrison

Sitting high above the small community of Ripley, Ohio, a lantern shone in the front window of a small, red brick home at night. It was a signal to slaves just across the Ohio River. Anyone fleeing bondage could look to Reverend John Rankin’s home for hope. To the slaveholders they fled from, Rankin’s activities as a “conductor” on the Underground Railroad invoked rage. Mobs often pelted Rankin with eggs and rocks, bounties were placed on his head, and midnight assassins lurked in the darkness, waiting for the right opportunity to take out the “Father of Abolitionism.” Despite frequent threats, he remained committed to the freedom of his fellow man.Today’s guest is Caleb Franz, author of The Conductor: The Story of Rev. John Rankin, Abolitionism's Essential Founding Father, we look at the story of the man who served as a George Washington–type figure to the antislavery movement. Rankin’s leadership brought unity and clarity to the often factious abolitionists of the nineteenth century. William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Beecher Stowe, and countless others found inspiration in his teachings. He also presented abolitionism as a moderate movement, helping to make it palpable to Southern centrists who considered most abolitionists Yankee radicals who wanted to watch America descend into a Haitian-style race war.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

fWotD Episode 2784: American Writers Welcome to Featured Wiki of the Day, your daily dose of knowledge from Wikipedia’s finest articles.The featured article for Wednesday, 18 December 2024 is American Writers.American Writers is a work of literary criticism by American writer and critic John Neal. Published by Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine in five installments between September 1824 and February 1825, it is recognized by scholars as the first history of American literature and the first substantial work of criticism concerning US authors. It is Neal's longest critical work and at least 120 authors are covered, based entirely on Neal's memory. With no notes or books for reference, Neal made multiple factually inaccurate claims and provided coverage of many authors that modern scholars criticize as disproportionate to their role in American literature. Scholars nevertheless praise the staying power of Neal's opinions, many of which are reflected by other critics decades later, notably "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses" by Mark Twain. Theories of poetry and prose in American Writers foreshadowed and likely influenced later works by Edgar Allan Poe and Walt Whitman. Neal argued American literature relied too much on British precedent and had failed to develop its own voice. He offered sharp criticism of many authors while simultaneously urging critics not to offer writers from the US undeserved praise, lest it stifle the development of a truly distinct American literature. Poe's later critical essays on literature reflected these strictures.Neal wrote the series in London, where he lived between 1824 and 1827. Having moved there from Baltimore, his goals were to establish himself as America's leading literary figure, encourage the development of a uniquely American writing style, and reverse British disdain for literature from the US. He soon became the first American published in any British literary journal, American Writers being the longest and best-remembered of his works on American topics in multiple UK periodicals. He wrote for Scottish publisher William Blackwood under an English pseudonym, which Neal assumed was convincing. Blackwood and British readers likely realized they were reading the work of an American, and multiple leading American periodicals outed Neal before the series was completed. The series was well received in the UK and exerted influence over British critics, some of whom copied Neal's analyses and misinformation into their own essays. It conversely drew considerable ire from US journalists, none more severe than William Lloyd Garrison, who warned Neal to be on guard should he return to his home country. When he did, Neal found inflammatory broadsides and in-person hostility in his hometown of Portland, Maine, leading to a fistfight. In defiance, he decided to stay in Portland, where he lived until his death forty-nine years later. The first postmortem republication of a substantial work by Neal was 1937, when Fred Lewis Pattee collected American Writers for the first time into one publication. That 1937 edition remains the most accessible of Neal's literary productions.This recording reflects the Wikipedia text as of 00:59 UTC on Wednesday, 18 December 2024.For the full current version of the article, see American Writers on Wikipedia.This podcast uses content from Wikipedia under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License.Visit our archives at wikioftheday.com and subscribe to stay updated on new episodes.Follow us on Mastodon at @wikioftheday@masto.ai.Also check out Curmudgeon's Corner, a current events podcast.Until next time, I'm standard Brian.

On this day (Dec. 3) in 1847, Frederick Douglass launched his own newspaper, “The North Star,” after years of reading and being inspired by William Lloyd Garrison's “The Liberator.” Renowned for its bold stance against slavery, the paper amplified Douglass's voice as a leading abolitionist, building on his influential 1845 autobiography, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, An American Slave, which had galvanized the abolition movement. Relocating to Rochester, New York, Douglass published the first edition, declaring, “Justice must be done, the truth must be told … I will not be silent.” A tireless advocate for equality across race, gender, and nationality, Douglass used the paper to champion justice and freedom. “The North Star” was published until 1851, when it merged with the Liberty Party Paper to become Frederick Douglass' Paper. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Our guest this time, Danielle Marshall, is an executive coach especially in the nonprofit sector. As she tells us she also works with small businesses to help them build a stronger foundation for working within their organizations as well as with customers and elsewhere. Danielle grew up in Queens and describes her childhood as living in an apartment building among many and diverse cultures. This experience helps her even today to understand and embrace the differences between all of us.   Danielle attended Howard University where she received her Bachelor's degree in Speech Pathology. However, she never got a job in that field. She went on in her studies and received a Master's degree in industrial organizational psychology.   After working in Americorp and other nonprofit agencies for many years, the pandemic forced her to open her own full-time coaching business in March of 2020. She still coaches nonprofit leaders as well as others to help them better understand and actively support people no matter their cultural and other differences.   I get to have a GREAT discussion with Danielle about how all of us, no matter our differences are all part of the same environment. While Danielle mainly concentrates on racial differences she clearly recognizes and understands that race is not the only issue she must address. She is quick to point out, for example, that persons with disabilities are just as part of the racial makeup of society as race itself. As she says, while she is not an expert on disabilities, when she encounters in her work someone with a disability she seeks out a partner more knowledgeable on disabilities to help her.   I found Danielle to be very open minded, curious and very willing to help create a more inclusive world for all. I think you will be inspired by her and hopefully some of you will reach out to her.       About the Guest:   A dedicated advocate for equity and inclusion, Danielle is the founder of Culture Principles and a Certified Diversity Professional. Her career is focused on guiding organizations to integrate Racial Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion into their operational frameworks. With an insightful understanding of industry trends and a commitment to collaborative growth, Danielle develops tailored strategies that enhance team dynamics and problem-solving skills. Her influential work includes a partnership with the Conscious Collaboratory, where she co-created the program Reimagining Racial Equity, aimed at helping business leaders incorporate racial equity into their organizations.   Danielle also excels in coaching senior leaders to develop their cultural competencies, equipping them with the knowledge and skills to lead inclusively in diverse environments. Her approach involves personalized coaching sessions and workshops that focus on understanding and appreciating cultural differences, fostering empathy, and enhancing communication skills within multicultural contexts. As a compelling speaker and ICF-certified Executive Coach, Danielle's engaging presence inspires audiences globally. Holding a Master's degree in Industrial-Organizational Psychology, her deep commitment to equity and inclusion has established her as a respected thought leader and agent for meaningful change.   Ways to connect with Danielle:   Website: https://www.culture-principles.com/  Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danimarshall/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cultureprinciples/       About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We are really, I think, blessed today, I have a person who is our guest. Her name is Danielle Marshall, and Danielle has a background in industrial organization psychology, not sure about the organization. You're going to have to help with that, but that's okay. She's been involved with dealing with nonprofits and concerning children for 20 years, and she saw a disconnect between narratives about children and her actual on the ground experiences, and I'm really fascinated to learn about that she does a lot in the world of diversity, equity and inclusion, dealing with race and so on. So we'll have to see how much she does with disabilities. Just to pick on her a little bit, that'll be fun. But we don't really like to pick on people too much unless they're politicians, and then the rule is you got to pick on everybody. You can't just pick on a few. So we don't deal with politicians because it's just way too much fun to pick on politicians anyway. Well, Danielle, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Michael,   Danielle Marshall ** 02:35 thank you. I'm not sure I've ever had an introduction quite like that.   Michael Hingson ** 02:40 Don't you think it's true, though, that we ought to just pick on all politicians,   Danielle Marshall ** 02:43 sure what they pick on themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 02:46 They do a good job, and then they leave all these openings for the rest of us. Right? Absolutely, and it's true of all of them. So as I tell people, I'm an equal opportunity abuser, so it's really better to just stay away from it. We have too much fun doing other kinds of things anyway, which is exactly what unstoppable mindset is all about. But I'm really glad that you're here. Then seriously, it'll be fun to hear some of the stories and to hear about the things that you have done and why you do what you do, and the observations that you've made. I think it's really pretty fascinating. But why don't we start, if we can, and if you will, why don't you tell us kind of about the early Danielle growing up, and some of that stuff always good to start that process.   Danielle Marshall ** 03:33 Sure. Well, I grew up as a 70s child in New York City, so that was my, sort of, my origin story. And I think it lends itself, quite frankly, to where I've ended up today. New York is one of the most diverse cities in the US, and definitely was true when I was growing up, also large, you know, large metropolitan area. And so where in New York I grew up in Queens, predominantly in Queens city. And, you know, when I think about the exposure I had to things as as a child, it really is telling that I would end up doing this work. You know, I grew up in an apartment building, and literally, everyone lived in the apartment building with us. You know, we had people from different racial groups and ethnic ethnicities, and there was Spanish music playing and Indian food cooking. And so, you know, my childhood really was a a broad opportunity to just dive in and talk to people and learn about their cultures and just really get familiar. And so I think it was interesting for me, because I don't feel like I ever grew up tolerating people. It was just we accepted each other, we lived amongst each other,   Michael Hingson ** 04:44 yeah. And was kind of an environment where, well, a very heterogeneous environment by any standard. And you, you learned up front, I would presume, pretty much how to get along,   Danielle Marshall ** 04:55 yeah, for the most part, yeah. I mean, no different, though, and I will put this caveat out. Out there that as kids, you know, we, no matter if it is a heterogeneous group or homogeneous, we're still going to have conflict, right? That's people. That's human nature. And the difference, though, and I'm really excited that I had this opportunity at such an early age, is that we learn to navigate the conflict within those groups early on. So, you know, it was never isolated to we only deal with our own community literally. And I know this is not true for everyone that grew up in New York, but it was definitely my experience. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:28 your community was everyone, everyone and all sorts of different kinds of people, which was so cool and something that it'd be nice to see a whole lot more of, and people really learn to understand the whole lot more of all sorts of different kinds of   05:43 people, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 05:45 So when you were in New York, did you ever eat at Peter Lucas?   Danielle Marshall ** 05:50 I actually did not have a memory of it, perhaps, but I don't remember that.   Michael Hingson ** 05:57 I always liked Ruth's Chris steakhouse better than Peter Lucas, but I've been to Peter Lucas on a couple of sales presentations, so I've eaten there twice. And I don't know was it's, I wonder if it's still there, just with everything that happened during the pandemic. You know, who knows? I know. Tavern on the green after September 11 closed for a while, and then it finally reopened. But it's just really too bad, and Hurley's saloon had to relocate because their lease went way up. Hurley's was one of those restaurants that started well, when it started, the Hurley brothers leased the space, and then the Rockefellers wanted to put up NBC and Rockefeller Center, and they put it up, but they wanted to buy out Hurley's, and Hurley said, No, we're going to keep it. And they had a 99 year lease. But unfortunately, when the 99 year lease was over, the rent quadrupled, and they ended up relocating over to a place on what was it? It was on 48th between I think it was Broadway and eighth, or eighth and ninth, right in that area, but I was always liked Hurley's, that was a fun place. So many stories because NBC, when they did build the facility in Rockefeller Center, some of the reporters ran a phone line from some of the places in NBC to Hurley. So they hung out in Hurley's and stayed at the bar, and then if something came in, their phone rang under the bar, and they grabbed the phone and went off and did what they did. Sure, sure, lovely history, only in New York.   Danielle Marshall ** 07:36 Many things happen in New York and nowhere else.   Michael Hingson ** 07:39 Well, so what got you? So you went to college, and where did you do that?   Danielle Marshall ** 07:45 Where I went to Howard University. So I came down to Washington, DC, okay? And while I was there, I ended up serving as a AmeriCorps member for two years with a program called jump start for young children. And it was, I think, really the beginning, if you will, of this journey as I understand it today, at least, it started to come to the forefront for me. Because what happened while I was in service is we were working in a number of Head Start schools around the District of Columbia, and I was serving primarily black and brown children in in the schools. And it was the first time I had really heard this narrative that would then follow me, regardless of where I live throughout the country. And the narrative was very much centered on who the children and families were that we serve. So, you know, there were often stories about the outcomes that they would achieve in life, what what levels of success they would be able to to get to who their families were, etc. But what I distinctly remember is that many of those narratives that I was hearing were not coming from people that were representative of that community. They didn't live there. They didn't represent the cultural groups we were serving, so they sort of had an outside perspective about who these community members were. And what was really disheartening for me at the time is that the narratives were very negative and, you know, and again, they didn't serve this community, but also misguided in the sense that they came from outsiders. And so I remember, even at that time, wanting to spend more of my efforts around narrative shifting, which is a big feature in the work that I do right now, because it began to dawn on me, though I yet, I yet to have, like the words at that moment, that it was never about the the children or the families. It was it was really about the systems. It was something broader that was leading to the outcomes that these kids were experiencing, not any default or deficit within them.   Michael Hingson ** 09:49 You know, it's interesting, because I can equate that to disabilities and specifically blindness, the same sort of thing, the narrative all the time is what blind people can. And can't do. Mostly can't, and it comes from people who are not blind, who have never tried being blind, and unfortunately, all too often, the so called professionals in the industry who have no real clue nor expectations about what people who happen to be blind can and cannot do. And the reality is, mostly we can do anything that we choose to, if given the opportunity. And so we end up finding the same narrative. I remember one person telling me about a story where they were at a meeting. He happened to be blind and was the CEO of a blindness organization, and somehow they got on to a discussion of the names of the organizations and that they really needed to somehow figure out how to get blind out of the names of their organizations. And this guy said, Wait a minute, what are you talking about? Your blindness organizations? You know, let's let's see. How many of you would really like to take the word blind out of your organization names. And there were, I think, 25 people in the room, and 24 out of 25 raised their hands. And of course, most all of them were not blind, but they wanted to take blind out of their organization name, just because of the view that they had. And as this person pointed out, you are serving and dealing with blind people. How could you ever consider taking blind out of the name of your organization? Blind isn't the problem. It's your attitudes and your perceptions. Yeah, so it seems exact same sort of thing? Yeah,   Danielle Marshall ** 11:34 absolutely. It's funny that even as you say that I'm having a I had a little bit of a reaction, because I hear that so much when people say, Well, why do you have to talk about race, or why did you have to say that this was a black person or a white person or an Asian person? Well, that's because that's who they are, right there. It doesn't change because you are uncomfortable having that conversation. It's still representative of that individual.   Michael Hingson ** 11:59 And it also doesn't mean that any of them are less capable than anyone else. Well, 100%   Danielle Marshall ** 12:04 like that. That goes without saying for me, but I think I am appreciating your point right now, because it needs discussion, because some people still believe that an association with a particular group, whether it be cultural ability level, etc, means that that narrative that exists in their mind that's negative is true, and   Michael Hingson ** 12:23 unfortunately, when we talk a lot about diversity and inclusion, especially the whole area of diversity, diversity usually centers around race, gender, sexual orientation and so on, and it Never centers or really brings in disabilities, even though we as a minority are much larger than all of the other minority groups that you can talk about. And yet we don't see disabilities being brought in. And it reminds me of a story. There's a book called all on fire by Henry Mayer. Have you ever read it?   Danielle Marshall ** 12:56 I haven't read that one.   Michael Hingson ** 12:58 So it's about William Lloyd Garrison, the abolitionist in the 1840s and he was looking for people to really join the movement and help in the abolition movement. And there were some two sisters, the grim K sisters, who were very much involved in women's suffrage. And he told his people, we really need to get them to come and be involved in what we're doing. And they said, Well, why would we do that? They're not interested in this. They're all interested in women's efforts and so on. Why would they even be interested in in in what we're doing? It would just kind of really divide off, and it would completely separate from what what we're about. And and Garrison said, you really don't get it. It's all the same thing. And it's unfortunate that we don't see that. So even the people who are involved in diversity, all too often decide they're going to specialize in one thing, but in reality, it's all the same thing.   Danielle Marshall ** 13:58 Yeah, I, you know, I I think that there are certain people who have niched down so like, my focus is racial equity, but I will tell you this, I don't miss disability or ability levels in my conversation, either, because what I'm more focused on is I pick a central part to start, which, for me, happens to be race, right? But what I would say to anyone who brings into the conversation, well, we have to talk about, we have to talk about gender, and we have to talk about, you know, I, you know, I'm a gay person, or I am in a wheelchair, all of these things start to come in for people in the conversation. And what I would say is that if I were to center on race, and even more specifically, let's say I picked a particular racial group that I'm centering on. If I centered the conversation on blackness, please understand and this is really, I think, important for listeners, viewers, today, for every racial group or any cultural group that you deal with the intersections that are out. For them cross every other identity. So if I chose a black person or a blackness as a racial group, there are going to be people who are, you know, they have different sexualities, they have different ability levels, they have different religions. And so, you know, as I'm thinking, different genders, you name it, different social, economic status. So no group is a monolith on its own. So if you are doing this work with intentionality, you are bringing in the other identities. And I understand it's not everyone out there that's doing it, but to me, there is very much a there's a place in this conversation for all of us, because I have chosen to center on one thing, and for me, I center on race first, because it's one of the conversations we have a very difficult time having in this country. Yeah, but we do build that muscle, but it is not to the exclusion of every identity other than a racial identity, because we all exist within, you know, a particular race.   Michael Hingson ** 15:55 And, you know, I've had a number of people come on the podcast who talk about diversity and so on. And very, very seldom do people say exactly what you just said, which makes perfect sense. I mean, there's nothing wrong with the fact that you focus mainly on race and particularly niches, but you would not do it to the exclusion of other things, and that's the important part. I've had some people who came on and they, and I've asked them to define diversity, and they say, oh, it's all about sexual orientation, race and gender and so on. And I said, What about disabilities? Oh, that's, that's social justice. No, it's not. It's not social justice. It's a completely different sort of thing. And that's, that's what's so unfortunate that we really don't understand that there's so many aspects of it. I mean, from that standpoint, in parts of the world, you could say the same thing about Caucasian people who happen to be a minority, and probably in other areas, are just as misunderstood in some ways.   Danielle Marshall ** 17:00 Sure, sure, you know, I would add something I think that's valuable, you know, if we're to think about expanding this conversation. So I don't think it's enough to simply say, I'm going to include information about, you know, disability and in this, in this discussion. But what I would say, as someone who focuses on racial equity, my expertise in disability isn't as strong. Sure, that's not my area. However, if done well, I can bring in a partner who does focus on that exactly. So now we have a stronger opportunity to really dig in and to do the work I have an opportunity right now that I'm working on where there's another gentleman in as part of the group who has a visual impairment, and he was teaching me a little bit about the technology. So if we're using zoom, what he has access to, what he doesn't have access to, access to. And so that's been really important to me, because these are things that I could very easily overlook. I tried to stay up to up to date on making sure that all the technology I personally use is accessible. But because technology changes so quickly, and this is not my area of specialties, literally, I need someone else who focuses on this to be like, Hey, have you heard this new update? Are you aware this thing is happening? Here's a new technology you can build into your own practice.   Michael Hingson ** 18:19 Sure, and that is exactly the way it ought to be. And, oh, by the way, just, just to point out, visual impairment is is a horrible term. It's like deaf people being called hearing impaired. You know, they they would execute you on the spot if they could, if you said hearing impaired. And the reason that visual impairment is bad, and it was created by the experts, the so called experts. First of all, visually, we're not different. You don't look different simply because you're blind. But the big issue is impaired, because immediately you're equating a person who doesn't see or doesn't see as well. You're equating their level of eyesight to people who have perfect eyesight. So the better term is blind and low vision, as opposed to visually impaired, for the obvious grammatical and logical reasons. But again, you wouldn't know that unless somebody talked to you about it, and other people wouldn't. But we really need to grow and recognize that all too often, words matter in so many ways, which is why we don't say Indians anymore. We say Native Americans or something like that. And, you know, in so many different ways, but, but the reality is, of course, you wouldn't know all about zoom you wouldn't know about screen readers and those, those kinds of technologies. And I'll tell you right now, if I can never help, all you have to do is yell.   Danielle Marshall ** 19:43 I will most certainly reach out. So Michael, you know what you did is you just offered me a gift in this moment. So I appreciate the feedback and the reframing of the language, because I think that is what this work is about. I am not bothered that you have just corrected me in this moment. I'm welcoming, welcoming in this session. An opportunity to learn.   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 It's not so much a correction, isn't Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead, but to me, it   Danielle Marshall ** 20:04 is a correction, and that's okay, right? Like we have to get comfortable with the fact that sometimes, even as a professional in this space, I am going to mistake misspeak at times, and that is okay because I can own it and then really incorporate that into my work. And so the reason I am even focusing on this right now is one. I am offering this back as gratitude to you. But the second is, for all of us out there that are afraid to lean into this work, one of the reasons people tend to be so afraid and shy away from it is that there, there's a fear of getting it wrong. All too Go ahead, please.   Michael Hingson ** 20:39 All too often today, there's still lots of blind folks who say, I'm visually impaired, and no, you're not, because we haven't, as as a group, really totally learned and understand it. Some people because they had eyesight and they lost it, and they regard themselves as being impaired, but they're not, and then the fact that they think they're impaired is the problem. But even totally blind people from birth sometimes think, well, I'm visually impaired, because they've learned that it's all about how much eyesight you have or don't have. So let's, let's do this a different way. Do you have a disability?   Danielle Marshall ** 21:18 I do? I have a hidden disability, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 21:20 which is,   Danielle Marshall ** 21:22 I am a diabetic. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 21:25 now let's talk about your non hidden disability. And this is my belief, and I talk about it fairly often on the podcast when I get the chance preaching again, in 1878 Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb. Why he invented the electric light bulb so light dependent people would have a way to be able to function in the dark. It doesn't mean that you don't still have the disability that we have spent so much time making light on demand, available so frequently and so ubiquitously, if you will. I'm not sure that's a good word, but the reality is, one of your disabilities is your light dependents. If the lights go out and you can't grab a flashlight or a smartphone right away, you're in a world of hurt. It doesn't cover it doesn't change your disability. It covers it up, but it's still there. And now getting people to understand and accept that is is a lot harder. But the whole point of it is, we all have challenges. And the reality is disability is not a lack of ability. And I've had some diversity. People say to me, well, but this starts out disability, so of course, it means a lack of ability. Yeah. Well, what do you do with the word disciple, then, or discern or discrete? Let's you know, the reality is, dis has nothing to do with it. It's what we decided is, and we've been so good, especially in the last 30 years, about changing language, it's time to really reframe it. But disability is a characteristic in one way or another that we all have. It just manifests itself differently, and getting people to to recognize that is a different story, but it is still what we really need to do so that people understand we all have challenges, and our challenges may very well be different than most every other person. Then that's okay, but we need to accept people and understand that usually they can help us just as much as we can help them.   Danielle Marshall ** 23:26 Of course, I absolutely agree with that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:30 Well, so you went off to Howard, and what did you What degree did you get at Howard?   Danielle Marshall ** 23:36 I am a speech pathologist. By my degree at Howard, I never actually used the degree. It was not something that I was I was interested in pursuing beyond the the undergraduate level, but I did minor in psychology, and so I went on to get a degree in industrial organizational psychology.   Michael Hingson ** 23:53 Now tell me about this organizational part. I told you I'd have to ask that. It's a great term. It's like an oxymoron, you know, Army intelligence. But tell me about industrial organization psychology.   Danielle Marshall ** 24:03 I think you can just look at it as you know it is, the psychology of organizations like I joke with people often that I think about the world, and in many ways as a case study. And so there are a variety of things that people that are in i o psychology do? They may be, you know, working on hiring and retention. They may be working on culture surveys, how we streamline our workforce, like there's a number of things that they do. What I have done, though, is pull on this thread of culture Well, being in organizations and really thinking about equity. For in particular, bipoc leaders, staff members, etc.   Michael Hingson ** 24:46 So how have your experiences made you kind of uniquely able to deal with what you do? Because clearly our experiences will usually lead us to do what we do. And so in your case, how. Did experience really make that happen?   Danielle Marshall ** 25:03 Yeah, I mean, that's a big question. I feel like everything that I have done over the course of my life sort of led me to this place, but I did not know that this was the destination. And to be fair, this may not be the final destination, right? There's still time, hopefully, that I have to arrive at said destination. But I had a flashback the other day because I was actually reading a book where someone had talked about being an anthropologist, and I remembered, and I hadn't thought about this in years, when I was in high school, and maybe this is Junior year or senior year, I went to my guidance counselor, and I told her, you know, we were we were talking about what we wanted to major in and what we want it to be when we grew up. And I said to the individual, I want to be an anthropologist. And she looked at me and she kind of scoffed, and she's like, No one's going to want to talk about culture and histories like that. That's past it. You'll never get paid for it. And that's crazy. Yeah, yeah. It knocked the wind out of me in that moment, because I'm like, I'm here in the capacity of, like, sharing my dreams, my aspirations with you. You're my guidance counselor. You're supposed to be guiding me. But in that moment, I felt really shut down. And so as a result of that, I made a change when it came to to going to college, right? I changed what I was thinking about. I was looking at this person as you know, someone literally because you're the guidance counselor, you have more wisdom than I do in this area, and so I let that affect how I move forward at the undergraduate level, only to find myself somewhat years later, like I may not be a anthropologist, but I certainly am someone who loves to study culture. I love to understand how people think, why they move, the way they do, what their values and their norms are. And so as I think about that, like they're all of these little touch points along my journey that I would say have brought me to this place, working, you know, in DC, in AmeriCorps program, and hearing the narrative shifts, and again, people talking about the cultural norms and values and getting it wrong about those communities. And so my my goal was like, how do we set the record right? How do we empower people to to not only survive, but to to thrive? And I was like, we have to address the systems. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 27:21 I've always been a believer in that all the experiences that we have help build and help us wherever we go. So how does speech pathology help you? Well,   Danielle Marshall ** 27:36 it has certainly taught me to slow down. You know, one of the things in speech pathology that we did a lot of was repetitive because the people that are coming into the program either they are working on developing speech like if it was a young child, or maybe it's someone who has had an accident or a stroke, and they're they're learning to speak again. There was so much around the repetitive nature of it. There was so much around slowing down, being patient, meeting the client, where they were, that I feel like in a strange way, I suppose. And I had never really thought about that like it does lend itself to where I find myself today. Because when I think about the work that I'm doing, if I'm teaching racial equity principles, if I'm helping groups to understand how to apply an equity lens in their thinking. A lot of this is repetition, making sure that you fundamentally understand the concepts that we've repeated it, that you can see how it might apply in different contexts. The slowing down meeting people at their level, you can't just jump into the conversation and assume people are starting from the same knowledge base that you are. Right? So how do I level set in the moment for that client.   Michael Hingson ** 28:42 There you go. You know, my master's degree is in physics. I never thought that I would be a full time public speaker and doing a podcast and so on. But I also from physics went my first job was doing something not directly related to physics, but it was involving high tech. And the reason physics helped me there is that it really taught me all the values of technology and to be curious about technology. And then, after starting that job, three years later, I ended up going into sales. And one of the things that physics really taught me was, professors always said, you really have to pay attention to all details. Don't make assumptions. That helped me a great deal in sales and then with sales and doing sales for 22 years, until September 11, and I still sale sell, but now it's not technology sales, but still, it was all about being curious, all about paying attention to the details and learning to communicate with people and hello that led to public speaking. So I really do believe that all the things that we do help us build toward whatever it is that we do now and whatever is. Next, whatever that is,   Danielle Marshall ** 30:03 certainly, and it   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 makes perfect sense that I'm, you know, so that's why I was really curious about speech pathology. And I had never thought about the fact that, yes, that you have to really slow down, and that's a very important thing in all the things that you're doing today, because it also helps you be a better listener   Danielle Marshall ** 30:22 that is critical to the work that I do. And you know, Michael, I'm also an executive coach, and so listening feels like it falls into the very essence of my work. I am there to ask people questions and obviously listen to their responses, or maybe not so obviously, but that is what I am I'm doing is I'm listening to hear maybe the things that go unsaid as well. What am I noticing in the conversation that might be helpful for the client to ultimately get to this place of greater understanding by just listening back to their own words   Michael Hingson ** 30:56 and maybe echoing them back and making them listen to them?   Danielle Marshall ** 30:59 Yes, so sometimes I have to stop and just say, I want to, I want to offer a noticing with your permission, right? And I'd like to repeat back to you something that you said, like, how does that land on you? So when we're having those conversations, you know, we we talk so much as people that we don't often listen to ourselves as we're saying that, you know. And I kind of joke with people in that game show that was around years ago. And people would say, like, Is that your final answer? Yeah, because I want you to really make sure that you've had time to think about what you've said. And yeah, and make modifications if you need to.   Michael Hingson ** 31:34 The more it seems to me that you think about what you say, then the better you are at saying what you really want to say more quickly because you've really thought about it. And you, you develop that mind muscle, which is so important,   Danielle Marshall ** 31:49 yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but it does lead to a different level of efficiency, for sure, yeah, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 31:55 But still, even even so, sometimes you say things and you, you didn't think them through, and it's a mind muscle that a lot of times we don't really develop very well, or not nearly as well as we could, but it makes a lot of sense to do it. Yeah,   Danielle Marshall ** 32:12 I think it speaks to our ability to really dive into introspection, right? And to self reflect as a normal practice in our world. Very few people that I talk to spend much time on it, like they will do some self reflection, but it's not a normal practice for them. And the thing is, when I consider, for instance, for me, it's writing, when I need to get clear on something I write, and the Writing helps me. It helps for my my business, because I'm able to publish lots of articles and blogs so forth. But the reason that they're coming out at the speed that they are is because I'll be gnawing on a question, right? Or I'll have had a conversation as as I'm digesting that I'm like, I just need to get it on paper so I can get out of my head and then look back at the notes that I've taken and say, does this actually jive with how you feel in this moment? Is there something that you might adjust to your way of thinking? And so regardless of whether you're doing the thinking in your head or on paper or, you know, out loud in conversation, there needs to be an opportunity to really sort of digest what your experiences are, to process them, because to the point that you made like you can call on the words a lot faster, because you're clear on your position, right? I know what my position is. I don't actually have to sit back and say, Hmm, I wonder about that, because I've thought about it already. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:32 I am a firm believer in introspection. I'm writing, well, I've written, and later in August of this year, my new book, live like a guide dog. True Stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith, will be published. And one of the things that I talk about a lot is the whole concept of introspection, because I believe, and I've learned not to say I'm my own worst critic anymore, because I think that's so negative, but rather, I'm my own best teacher, and I only can teach myself when I really sit down and think about it. I've never been a great journalist, but typically I can do it by thinking about it, and then eventually, when I write something down, I'm writing it down because I'm creating an article or preparing for a podcast or whatever, and I'll look at it, and I might tweak it even then, but I do like to spend a lot of time thinking and looking at what I do and thinking about what I do, because I think it's so important, and I wish more of us would do more of that.   Danielle Marshall ** 34:38 Yeah, absolutely. I think there's just so much potential for growth. You know, when we're spending that time reflecting, how did I show up in the moment? You know, am I walking in alignment with my own values right now? Is there something I want to learn? There's just so many spaces that we could enter in when we quiet our minds long enough to just be present with what feels real for us   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 and. Is always time to do that. So many people I've heard say, but I don't really have time. Of course, you do. It's a matter of priority. Yeah,   Danielle Marshall ** 35:08 I'm laughing because I just talked about this earlier. I am in my world when people say they don't have time, it is often related to whether it is dei or leaning into cultural competencies and learning more about different cultures. And I would say to them, like, Hey, you develop these goals. Tell me a little bit about where you are. And oh, well, you know, I got busy, and so it didn't happen. But as a coach, my job is to probe a little bit deeper. And so as I'm listening to them say I got busy, I'm like, Well, what does that mean? And the reality is, we start to uncover some other things, and they're like, Well, you know, I have to have this really difficult conversation with someone at work, and that makes me uncomfortable. You know what? I'm too busy to handle this, right? Or they, they may default to something else where they're like, hey, you know, to learn more about cultural awareness, I actually have to examine my own culture and some of the elements that I may not like as much about my own cultural group. I don't want to do that. I'm really just too busy to dedicate the time, and so at the end of the day, it's kind of amusing, because I'm like, busyness is the default statement, but it is often the excuse, not the actuality of what's happening. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:16 that makes sense, and I buy that 100% makes perfect sense. How does cultural competency play into all that you do in terms of developing teams and working with organizations and so on?   Danielle Marshall ** 36:31 Yeah, cultural competency is is really core to the work at the end of the day. Because when we talk about this, and just for a pretty simple definition, for people who have not heard this before, is when we're talking about cultural competency. It's our ability to communicate, to interact, to work across cultural difference, you know? So if we're talking about culture again, it could be everything from disability. I will start with that now. Thank you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 36:55 you know, no pressure. You don't have to. That's okay. No, no   Danielle Marshall ** 36:59 pressure at all. But I, the thing is, I want people to see themselves in this, right? So any group, cultural group, where there are shared norms, patterns, values, right? How do you work across difference when you you're not a member of that group? How do you interact with people effectively? How do you communicate with them? And so cultural competence, competency is the ability to do just that. So when, when I think about the work that we're doing, that's really important, because people often will come in to the work and they believe that there is a particular right way to do things, and the fastest way to sort of negate that is, I'm like, I want you to actually think about your own culture. What's your background, what are the beliefs, the patterns, the norms that you grew up with, and also to be able to hear from other people, what are the you know, the norms, the values, the patterns that they grew up with? It's not that one is right or wrong, it's just the one that's familiar to you, thus is often your preference. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 37:55 yeah. And, and the the reality is that you're not the only game in town,   Danielle Marshall ** 38:01 exactly, and we are to work across difference. To be able to collaborate together, I must be able to recognize in you, okay, maybe we do move differently through the world, and even though it is a different choice than I personally might make based on my cultural background, it isn't right or wrong, it's simply different, different   Michael Hingson ** 38:19 I've thought a lot about disabilities, and one of the things that I felt was a challenge for people with disabilities, and you just made me think differently about it, is that the problem with with disabilities is that, in reality, the needs and most all of the issues regarding, let's say people who are blind are different from people who are in a wheelchair or different from people who are deaf or who may be on the who may be autistic or whatever. But the reality is, what I really just figured out, and should have figured out a long time ago, I have to hit myself upside the head later, is it's just as true for race, for for black or for Asian or whatever, it's the same thing. So it really isn't any more of a weakness for disabilities, other than maybe in some senses, physically, there are a lot more things that appear different, but the but the fact of the matter is, we all have differences in what we do, and that's the cultural differences,   Danielle Marshall ** 39:20 absolutely, and it's important, I think, for people to understand that no group of people is a monolith. Yeah, there are always going to be differences within us, you know. And I often for people that really can't see their way out of that, I will ask them to consider for a second, you know, if I said to you, Michael, are all blind, and I'm going to be very specific men the same, your answer would be, what? No, absolutely not, right? And yet we Yeah, make an assumption about other groups, like, well, you know, that's just how they are. And I'm like, Who's Who's they?   Michael Hingson ** 39:57 Who's they? Yeah, and. The reality is, a lot of people would say, well, all blind men are the same, and they're not,   Danielle Marshall ** 40:03 but, and that's exactly the problem. If we would not say within our own cultural group that everyone is exactly the same, we're familiar with it, right? We know we are not the same. I am not the same as every other black woman. You are not the same as every other white man. Like there are differences about us, and yet we are so quick to ascribe similarity to people that are different from us. I   Michael Hingson ** 40:26 know I'm a real oddity in things, but having never seen colors, personally, intellectually, I've never understood why people have a problem with race based on color. And I mean, I can really say that about myself, having never seen it and having not grown up. It's a really, I know, a strange feeling, but I know for me, it is strange to to see so many people looking down on people of a different color. I mean, I understand color. I understand the concept of it. Hey, I can talk about it in terms of wavelengths and Angstroms and all that all day long, but it's never been something that I really understand. Why do we even pay attention to it?   Danielle Marshall ** 41:11 Yeah, this is about dominance. I mean that. Yeah, that's true. Simple of it, yeah, when you think about race, race is a social construct, there is nothing that divides us. We may physically look different, but genetically, people are people. We are all the same in that way. But when we talk about the social construct of race, a person created this. People created this construct of race to establish dominance of certain groups over others. But here's the thing. So, you know, people will say really quickly to me, if it's socially constructed, why does it matter? And I'm like, it is a social construct that has real world implications, yes. And that is why we must continue to have this conversation about race in this country. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 42:01 And the operative part of that is have the discussion. There are those who don't want to have any discussion. They want to just ignore it, because they think they're the only ones who are right.   Danielle Marshall ** 42:14 That is, unfortunately, an ongoing challenge. And I wouldn't even say that just about race. I think there are some think they're right period. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 42:22 I mean, look at, look at different religious organizations. Um, so I'm glad I'm not God, because I'm, I'm with Mark Twain. I wonder if God had been in man because he was disappointed in the monkeys. But I, you know, I It's, it's, it's a challenge, because religiously, so many different religions say, Well, I'm the only one that's really right, yeah. But you know, if you say you believe in God and all that, why do you think that God thinks you're the only one that's right? Show us the proof.   Danielle Marshall ** 42:54 Yeah, it's complicated and but it's another example of why people haven't wanted to lean into these discussions for so long, it was not considered polite conversation to talk about politics, religion, money, those types of things, and yet, I would say the lack of having those conversations have led us to some severe consequences today. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:13 and part of it is that we've also forgotten how to really have a good conversation. It doesn't mean that we should take it personally. It doesn't mean that one side is right and the other side is wrong, and that shouldn't be about proving one side right the other side wrong. Should be about understanding. Yeah,   Danielle Marshall ** 43:30 you know, I think it's an opportunity to examine one's motives in the moment. Right listeners, I think it is. But for us to individually do it. What am I hoping to get out of this conversation? You know, for some people, they might want to prove a point. For others, they're going to enter the space, you know, desiring to learn. Others are just, you know, they're they're just filling time. Like, what is your motivation in this? And for me, you know, and I've told many people this at this point, especially doing the work that I do in dei they're like, Oh, don't you get tired of having to convince people about, you know, the different merits of diversity, equity and inclusion. And I'm like, Well, I understood a long time ago that diverse, excuse me, that convincing people is not my ministry. Yeah, I am here to walk alongside of people who want to be on this journey, who want to learn, who want to have curiosity towards the world, towards other groups, to self exploration. And so I think just knowing sort of what the purpose is in the conversation, even if I walk into something like my goal is always to just to learn, to listen, to learn something, even if I have something that I have something that I want to contribute and I have a very strong perspective on it, I still would like to understand what the other person's bringing to the table. And   Michael Hingson ** 44:47 you might change your perspective when you sit down and dwell on what was discussed   Danielle Marshall ** 44:51 absolutely and that that happens every day. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:55 I mentioned I have a master's degree in physics. I also, at the same time, got a secondary. Teaching Credential, and I used, and still use that knowledge of being a teacher every day. I use it in sales, because I learned through lessons, I was able to take in learning to be a good salesperson through the Dale Carnegie sales course that the best salespeople aren't really trying to convince you, oh, that may be their motivation. But what they're really trying to do is to teach you and guide you, and at the same time, deciding, is my product the best product for you or not? And the really good salespeople, if their product isn't the one that's going to work for you, will be honest enough to tell you that? Yeah,   Danielle Marshall ** 45:41 absolutely. And as we see with salespeople, there are many different approaches people take. And so, you know, you're if it's not my particular way, there's someone else out there that may offer a different perspective, a different philosophy on these things, and I think that's okay, that we have multiple sort of entry points into this work. I   Michael Hingson ** 46:01 love watching other sales people in action. I've learned every time I do. And as you said, it's all about learning. It's my motivation as well. I love being on these podcasts because, as I've told many people, if I'm not learning at least as much as everyone else, I'm not doing my job very well. And it's so fun to be able to have meaningful discussions and learn so much from so many people who come from different perspectives and have their own knowledge bases which are different than mine, and I get to at least be allowed to share in that with them, which is so cool,   46:38 absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 46:41 So one of the things that and I mentioned, live like a guide dog, and live like a guide dog really is motivated as a book to teach people that they can control fear and that that fear doesn't need to blind you, as I put it, or paralyze you or overwhelm you. You know, September 11 happened, and I wasn't afraid. And I wasn't afraid because of the fact that I learned in advance how to deal with emergencies at the World Trade Center, because I moved into the to the complex, and we opened our office in August of 2000 but even before then, while we were setting it up, I knew that there had been a bombing in 1993 and I decided early on, you know, if there's a gonna be another attack on the World Trade Center, I better know all I can about this year place. And so I learned where everything was, but I also spent a lot of time talking to the emergency preparedness people, the fire people, the Port Authority, police and so on, and I learned what to do. And it wasn't until much later that I realized that all that knowledge helped me develop a mindset that said you know what to do in the case of an emergency. So I really advocate very strongly when I get a chance to talk about being safe and emergency preparedness, don't rely on signs. Learn the information so that you really know what to do, which most people you know, don't they, they figure, I'm just going to be able to see the sign, and that works until you can't because you're in a smoke filled room, but, but fear is, is all around us, and we don't really learn to control it. And I think society, all too often, really, in a lot of ways, encourages us to be afraid, way too much. But fear is is something that people just hate to talk about, like in professional growth and so on. How do you deal with that?   Danielle Marshall ** 48:30 I definitely appreciate that. You know when I when I think about fear? For me, it can be either a catalyst or an inhibitor, sort of a choose your own adventure concept, because you get to decide how you're going to approach it. But you know, when I think about fear, and I'm going to, you know, back this up to the work that I do around Dei, around cultural, culture in general, I think fear has the potential to raise our self awareness. If I walk into something and I'm I'm fearful, all of a sudden, there's someone who's different from me, right? They're a different religion, they speak a different language, they look different. Why am I experiencing that fear in that moment? Right? So I'm raising my self awareness by being able, again, to introspect on this, to really dig a little bit deeper. So that's that's one piece of it, like it points to the things that can help us then to grow we're the places that we need to focus on, you know? And I'll use just an example again, like a common fear is public speaking. And so is that something that you should really be fearful of, or is it simply a acknowledgement that, hey, I could work on my public speaking skills, right? I could practice in the mirror as a starting point. I could talk to a group of friends, you know, and just have a presentation in my living room. It is pointing us to skills we're not necessarily saying you have to get on a stage and deliver a TED talk as an. Example, right? Like, what are the small steps one can take to start to be able to build up those competencies more and so, like, when I think about fear, I think there's, it's, it's an opportunity to grow.   Michael Hingson ** 50:12 I believe that's absolutely correct. Fear is a is a very powerful tool that we can use in so many things that we do in our lives, and that it doesn't need to be the thing that overwhelms us and prevents us from making intelligent decisions. It's a it's a great motivator, it's a great tool, and it's a wonderful gift that if we would embrace it and use it properly, would help us a great deal in all that we do. Yeah, and unfortunately, again, I see in our world, with all the political things going on and so on, so many people are just fomenting and promoting fear. And too many people are buying into it rather than being able to step back from it, because we just haven't ever learned to do that. Yeah, there's   Danielle Marshall ** 51:00 a fear economy. There are people who legitimately profit from fear tactics. So whether that be in our politics, whether it be how we're looking at different medicines that, you know, just remember, yes, exactly, we're still there, you know, by now, because it's the last one, you're not going to put that fear in you, or you're not going to be able to make it through life if you don't own one of these things. And so I don't know there's so many things that come to mind as I make that statement, but I   Michael Hingson ** 51:31 was watching, I watched some old TV in the morning, and I love to watch the commercials, because at least half of them, they say you got to buy this now, because due to supply chain shortage, this is maybe the last time that you can get it, and the commercial has been going on for a year. So, you know, yeah, exactly. It's interesting.   Danielle Marshall ** 51:50 There's one of my favorite department stores that's been having a one day sale every day for as long as I can remember. Yeah, I just kind of think that is ironic. If I should ever come back again into this world, maybe I'm coming back as an advertising psychologist, because I find it quite fascinating. Um, but yeah, fear. Fear, to me, is one of those things that I think that if we are willing to embrace it, if we are willing to be able to think a little bit about what is driving our fear, there's so much potential there, because even in my coaching work, what I see with clients really quickly is like, if you can name the fear, right, give it a name, say exactly what it is, you can start to develop techniques to mitigate that fear, if you will. It goes unnamed. It's really hard to address, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:40 because then you're, you don't know what it is you're really dealing with, but if you can think about it, then you can go back and oh, okay, now let's figure out how we deal with that,   Danielle Marshall ** 52:49 yeah, or how I get support in dealing with it. Not everything is going to be within our wheelhouse, yeah? And I was,   Michael Hingson ** 52:55 I was including it all of one lump sing, one lump sum thing. But you're right. There's nothing wrong. And too many people are afraid of this. There's nothing wrong with looking for support, eliciting support from other people. And all too often, we think that, Oh, I got to do this on my own. I wouldn't be as big a person, especially a macho man, if I have to go off and ask for support, that's funk. Yeah, I love teamwork. I have written all of my books in a teaming relationship, and other people have been involved, and I love that. It's so much fun to do, because I learn other perspectives along the way, and I think it makes for better books.   Danielle Marshall ** 53:40 Yeah, I can definitely appreciate that. I mean, so much of my work is centered around including multiple voices and perspectives on things. We cannot be effective in this work if we center it only on a singular voice or a singular group. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:55 you've said that pre one precursor to building confidence is being courageous. Where have you had an example of really being courageous or dealing with fear love? A story. Stories are always fun,   Danielle Marshall ** 54:08 you know? I There's so many things that come to mind, like when I, when I hear that question, because it is, you know, and actually, I'm going to go back to high school again. I'll give you, I'll give you two stories here, when I was in high school, I also had that fear of public speaking, right? It terrified me to think that I'd have to get on a, you know, in front of an audience, of whether that would be in front of a classroom or on a stage, etc. And I remember, and this is so interesting, because it's telling of like how I've sort of arrived again to where I am today, but I have this memory of just saying to myself one time, their student government was going to be opening up some positions for the senior class in the upcoming year, and I said, I want to run for my high school treasurer. In order to run for a treasurer, I had to get on a stage. Age, I had to give a speech, I had to talk to the entire student body of our senior class. And I was like, This is the worst idea ever, right? Like, I'm having that moment. I was like, Why did you think this was okay? And I said, you know, I don't know what's going to happen in this moment, but I certainly know this is the one thing I do know about fear. If you do not address it, it is not going anywhere. And so for me, the strategy, even from my high school days, was to lean into things. The issue wasn't that I wasn't able to speak to people, right? I was fine in smaller groups, but it was terrifying to think about getting on a stage and taking, like, a public position on a particular thing. But over the years, I just did a little bit more and a little bit more, you know. So when I started my first job in the in the nonprofit sector, you know, I was a program coordinator, and so I had to train a small team of volunteers on something. And so now I'm taking material that I didn't even create at the time, and I'm making sure I understand them so that I can train these people. And then I went on to, you know, start doing more training at a much larger scale, where I'm I'm traveling around the country, and then it is all of a sudden, oh, I'm standing on stages, and there are 500 people. There are 1000 people in the audience. I'm doing podcasts, and lo and behold, the very thing that I was most fearful of when I was in high school is the thing I've become. I am now a public speaker.   Michael Hingson ** 56:29 Yeah, I remember speaking in small groups or selling. You never know where you're going to be selling on any given day, whether it's to a board of a financial organization or to IT people or whatever, and that taught me to be comfortable in groups. But the first time I was asked to speak about September 11 was when I was called by Minister two weeks afterwards. So it was like on Monday the Well, probably the 23rd or maybe it was even a couple of days before then. And he said, we're holding a service for all the people who we lost in New Jersey, and we'd like you to come. And I said, Okay, well, where? And he said, it's going to be an outdoor service. And I said, Great. And then I I asked the question, how many people are going to be there? Probably about 6000 and you know what didn't bother me, of it, I said, Great. So that was my first speech to 6000 people. And you know, it was fun for a lot of reasons. It was, was very enjoyable. You know, I shouldn't say enjoyable, because it was a sense of sad occasion, but I was able to do it, and hopefully inspired some people, and and my wife and I went down and I did it, and it worked out really well, but 6000 people wasn't bad. It's a good start.   Danielle Marshall ** 57:58 That is a fantastic start. Welcome.   Michael Hingson ** 58:02 So can you tell us a story where you really saw in an organization or some people, just a real transformation, and the success of what you teach about dei and the principles and so on?   Danielle Marshall ** 58:18 Sure, you know, I was, I was thinking a little bit about dei and specifically coaching leaders. I I think what is really important when I think about some of the clients that I've served, is is this idea that talk about fear again, right? What stops them from moving forward, in a lot of cases, has been the fear of the unknown, right? These big issues feeling like they have to fix the world. And so where I've seen success with with certain clients in particular, is that they've been able to figure out how the application of Dei, how the application of cultural competencies, can be contextualized for their organization, their mission, the thing that they are most focused on. And so in in that, whether you are an arts based organization or you are, you know, teaching children how to read, how do the principles of racial equity, of cultural norms and values, how do they apply to the realm of work that you're doin

Send us a textCan a nation exist without its land, or is it truly defined by its people? We unravel this intricate question by drawing inspiration from William Everett's "A Nation and the Patriot" in the Young Folks Library. By examining historical tensions between the English monarchy and citizens, we challenge the conventional notion of patriotism as mere allegiance to a ruler. Through this dialogue, we explore how the true essence of a nation is shaped by its citizens rather than its geography or its leaders. By dissecting political hierarchies from aristocracies to democracies, we scrutinize how claims of patriotism have been used both to unite and divide throughout history.Further enriching our conversation, we draw upon the passionate words of William Lloyd Garrison, champion of universal freedom and human rights. This episode invites you to critically evaluate how nations have been formed and redefined by the enduring quest for liberty and identity. Join us in this enlightening journey through time as we dissect the evolution of national pride and the relentless pursuit of freedom. There's more to patriotism than meets the eye, and we're here to uncover its hidden dimensions.Support the showThe American Soul Podcasthttps://www.buzzsprout.com/1791934/subscribe

This week on The Learning Curve, co-hosts Alisha Searcy of DEFR and retired MN Justice Barry Anderson interview Dr. David Heidler. He discusses the transformative period of Jacksonian Democracy, from 1829 to 1837. Dr. Heidler explores the political changes, sectionalism, and reforms that characterized the era, alongside the controversial figure of Andrew Jackson, whose volatile nature and strategic political management propelled his rise and image. Heidler delves into Jackson's presidential campaigns, his party's appeal to diverse coalitions, and the significant role of slavery, particularly in the wake of events like Nat Turner's 1831 slave rebellion. He also examines Jackson's relationships with prominent statesmen like Daniel Webster, Henry Clay, and John C. Calhoun; his influence on Indian removal policies leading to the Trail of Tears; as well as the divergent constitutional views of figures like the abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison and the states' rights advocate, Calhoun. Dr. Heidler underscores how history, classic literature, and slave memoirs can enhance understanding of Antebellum America. He discusses the importance of examining the economic impact of immigration and transportation innovations, and highlights the influence of civic associations, religious movements, and communication advancements on the period's social reforms and democratic spirit. In closing, Dr. Heidler reads a passage from his coauthored book, The Rise of Andrew Jackson: Myth, Manipulation, and the Making of Modern Politics.

Matthew Skic from the Museum of the American Revolution and I talk about their exhibit Black Founders:  The Forten Family of Philadelphia .  9-year old James Forten heard the Declaration of Independence read in July of 1776, and never forgot its promise of liberty and equality.  At the age of 14 he signed aboard a privateer, was captured, taken to New York where a British officer offered to release him and send him to England.  He refused rather than betray his country.  Back in Philadelphia after the war he became a successful businessman--a sail maker--one of the wealthiest Black men in the country, and the chief benefactor of William Lloyd Garrison's newspaper The Liberator.  Join us to hear more about James Forten and his family's story--and for more on Forten, read Julie Winch's great book Gentleman of Color.Tell us what you think! Send us a text message!

Who was the real father of the abolitionist movement in America? In this fascinating episode of The Brian Nichols Show, Caleb Franz reveals the forgotten story of Reverend John Rankin, a man who risked his life to fight against slavery and inspire a generation of abolitionists. Studio Sponsor: Cardio Miracle - "Unlock the secret to a healthier heart, increased energy levels, and transform your cardiovascular fitness like never before.": https://www.briannicholsshow.com/heart Caleb's new book "The Conductor" delves into the incredible tale of John Rankin, a humble Presbyterian minister who wrote powerful letters condemning slavery that eventually found their way to William Lloyd Garrison, Frederick Douglass' mentor. Despite facing constant threats, mob attacks, and even a $3,000 bounty on his head (a fortune in the 1800s), Rankin never wavered in his mission to end the scourge of slavery. Brian and Caleb explore why Rankin's story has been largely forgotten by history, and discuss the importance of sharing and documenting the tales of unsung heroes. They also examine the lessons modern movements can learn from Rankin's integrity, sense of duty, and unwavering commitment to his cause in the face of extreme adversity. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in American history, the abolitionist movement, or the power of one person to change the world. Caleb's book "The Conductor" is set to be released on October 15th and is available for pre-order now. Don't miss this engrossing conversation about a true American hero. Subscribe to The Brian Nichols Show for more eye-opening discussions on politics, history, and the importance of sharing our stories! ❤️ Order Cardio Miracle (https://www.briannicholsshow.com/heart) with code TBNS at checkout for 15% off and take a step towards better heart health and overall well-being!

Caleb Franz is the host of Profiles in Liberty and author of "The Conductor: The Story of Rev. John Rankin, Abolitionism's Essential Founding Father," and he joins us to discuss Rankin's Presbyterian upbringing in the South, his passionate opposition to slavery, and the influential letters he wrote to his brother, which sparked a broader public dissection of the institution of slavery. These writings, akin to 'The Federalist Papers' of abolitionism, played a crucial role in shaping the abolitionist movement, impacting figures like William Lloyd Garrison and Harriet Beecher Stowe. Franz also explores Rankin's challenges, including physical threats and societal opposition, underscoring his importance as a unifying figure whose efforts transcended abolitionism. The episode delves into Franz's book's origin and evolution, Rankin's legacy's impact, and the importance of acknowledging the contributions of figures lost to history. Preorder the book: The Conductor: The Story of Rev. John Rankin, Abolitionism's Essential Founding Father - https://amzn.to/4ck3dnx Do you have comments or questions about this episode? Visit it on ChrisSpangle.com and leave one! --- Join our Patreon now for commercial-free shows, bonus content, and our complete archives - https://www.patreon.com/wearelibertarians --- Join our Facebook Group to meet other listeners. - https://www.facebook.com/groups/walnutssociety --- Visit Chris-Spangle.com to see my other podcasts and projects or to add me on social. www.Chris-Spangle.com --- Looking to start a podcast? Download my podcast Podcasting and Platforms now, and check out my recommendations for buying the right equipment. Chris Spangle and Leaders and Legends, LLC edited and produced this podcast. If you want to start a podcast or take yours to the next level, please get in touch with us at LeadersAndLegends.net. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A huge thanks to Seth White for the awesome music!Thanks to Palmtoptiger17 for the beautiful logo: https://www.instagram.com/palmtoptiger17/Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/thewayfourth/?modal=admin_todo_tourYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTd3KlRte86eG9U40ncZ4XA?view_as=subscriberInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/theway4th/ Kingdom Outpost: https://kingdomoutpost.org/My Reading List Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/21940220.J_G_ElliotChristian Peace and Nonviolence: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11451761-christian-peace-and-nonviolence?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=lpCu4Cfk0v&rank=8PDF Version: https://cdnsm5-ss12.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_520401/File/Departments/Curriculum%20&%20Instruction/ELA/Non-Fiction%20Texts/The%20Declaration%20of%20Sentiments%20of%20the%20American%20Anti-Slavery%20Society.pdf Thanks to our monthly supporters Laverne Miller Jesse Killion ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Following the outbreak of the American Civil War, the abolitionist movement underwent an “astonishing transformation”, which would in time alter the direction of the war, the shape of the postwar settlement, and destroy the abolitionist movement itself. As the movement's moral outsiders found themselves becoming interest group insiders, not only their approach but also their message and ultimately their goals changed. Ideological differences became ideological conflicts, and personal animosities were soon blended into the mix.  This is the argument of Frank J. Cirillo in his new book The Abolitionist Civil War: The Abolitionist Civil War: Immediatists and the Struggle to Transform the Union. Frank J. Cirillo is a historian of slavery and antislavery in the nineteenth-century United States. He has held positions at the University of Bonn, The New School, and the University of Virginia. This is his first book. For Further Investigation The photograph is of, from left to right: Wendell Phillips, William Lloyd Garrison, and George Thompson (an English advocate against slavery). The standard biography of Wendell Phillips is James Brewer Stewart, Wendell Phillips: Liberty's Hero (Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1986); Henry Mayer wrote a popular biography of William Lloyd Garrison titled All on Fire: William Lloyd Garrison and the Abolition of Slavery; for a wider focus, see the second edition of the classic study by Ronald G. Walters, American Reformers, 1815-1860 Numerous conversations on Historically Thinking have dealt with related issues. For an overview of abolitionism, see Episode 82: Abolitionism, A Long Conversation. The overlooked importance of Unionism was at issued in Episode 132: Armies of Deliverance and again in Episode 291: True Blue. The drive for black voting rights by American Blacks was the focus of Episode 294: Black Suffrage. And Abraham Lincoln's racial attitudes were the subject of a conversation with Michael Burlingame in Episode 242: Was Abraham Lincoln a Racist?  

Welcome to the Instant Trivia podcast episode 1054, where we ask the best trivia on the Internet. Round 1. Category: Abolitionism 1: Between 1830 and 1860, this system transported many runaway slaves to southern Ontario. the Underground Railroad. 2: Before the Harpers Ferry attack, he and his men killed 5 proslavers in Pottawatomie, Kansas. John Brown. 3: This 1787 ordinance included a fugitive slave clause. the Northwest Ordinance. 4: The first issue of this William Lloyd Garrison abolitionist paper was published January 1, 1831. The Liberator. 5: By means of the Missouri Compromise, this New England state was admitted as a free state. Maine. Round 2. Category: Historical Transports 1: The V-8 Ford in which this criminal couple were gunned down in 1934 became an instant attraction. Bonnie and Clyde. 2: Good grief! The Command Module and Lunar Module for Apollo 10 were named for these 2 characters. Snoopy and Charlie Brown. 3: It made its final flight in April 1928 when Charles Lindbergh presented it to the Smithsonian. the Spirit of St. Louis. 4: James Lawrence was referring to his frigate the Chesapeake when he gave this famous command in 1813. "Don't give up the ship". 5: When this "Express" train crashed in 1900, Casey Jones died with his hand still on the brake lever. the Cannonball Express. Round 3. Category: Divinity 1: Born from a golden egg, this multifaced god of creation in Hinduism mediates between Vishnu and Shiva. Brahma. 2: Shinto deities are called kami; Inari is the kami of this grain. rice. 3: The Mahdi is an anticipated messianic spiritual figure who will restore this faith to its rightful purity. Islam (or Muslim). 4: 1 John 4 says "God is" this and "perfect" this "casteth out fear". love. 5: When Christian Science refers to the supreme being, it uses the term "divine" this 4-letter word. mind. Round 4. Category: Driving Alexis 1: In 1912 someone must have driven Alexis Carrel to give his Nobel lecture on suturing these, arteries and veins. blood vessels. 2: If you're driving company founder Alexis Ohanian to Reddit's offices, head for the Tenderloin area of this city. San Francisco. 3: If you're driving this actress, it may be to the set of "The Handmaid's Tale". Alexis Bledel. 4: You'd want to drive the czarevich Alexis (born 1904) very carefully as he suffered from this condition. hemophilia. 5: Driving this author of "Democracy in America" may have been rough as he complained, "Trail infernal, carriage without springs". (Alexis) de Tocqueville. Round 5. Category: Genius: Picasso 1: Living in Barcelona in 1899, Picasso befriended fellow artists and dodged police looking for these radicals against all government. anarchists. 2: Young Picasso was influenced by bullfighting and the pageantry of this southern region that includes Malaga. Andalusia. 3: Many of Picasso's motivations are dramatized, like how the horrors of the Spanish Civil War inspired this masterpiece. Guernica. 4: As a young man, Picasso lived in Catalonia with a friend, painting and avoiding service in this 1898 conflict. the Spanish-American War. 5: The suicide of a close friend in 1901 stimulated the emotional expressiveness of this period of Picasso's work. the Blue Period. Thanks for listening! Come back tomorrow for more exciting trivia!Special thanks to https://blog.feedspot.com/trivia_podcasts/ AI Voices used

As I have always told our guests, our time together is a conversation, not an interview. This was never truer than with our guest this time, Andrew Leland. Andrew grew up with what most people would call a pretty normal childhood. However, as he discovered he was encountering night blindness that gradually grew worse. Back in the 1980s and early 90s, he was not getting much support for determining what was happening with his eyes. He did his own research and decided that he was experiencing retinitis pigmentosa, a degenerative eye disease that first affects peripheral vision and eventually leads to total blindness. I won't spend time discussing Andrew's journey toward how finally doctors verified his personal diagnosis.   Andrew was and is an incredible researcher and thinker. He comes by it naturally. In addition, he is quite a writer and has had material published by The New York Times Magazine, The New Yorker, McSweeney's Quarterly, and The San Francisco Chronicle, among other outlets. He comes by his talents honestly through family members who have been screenwriters and playwrights. Example? His grandfather was Marvin Neal Simon, better known to all of us as Neal Simon.   This year Andrew's first book was published. It is entitled, The Country of the Blind: A Memoir at the End of Sight. I urge you to get and read it.   Our conversation goes into detail about blindness in so many different ways. I am sure you will find that your own views of blindness will probably change as you hear our discussion. Andrew has already agreed to come on again so we can continue our discussions. I hope you enjoy our time together.     About the Guest:   Andrew Leland's first book is The Country of the Blind: A Memoir at the End of Sight. His_ writing has appeared in _The New York Times Magazine, The New Yorker, McSweeney's Quarterly, and The San Francisco Chronicle, among other outlets. From 2013-2019, he hosted and produced The Organist, an arts and culture podcast, for KCRW; he has also produced pieces for Radiolab and 99 Percent Invisible. He has been an editor at The Believer since 2003. He lives in western Massachusetts with his wife and son.     Ways to connect with Andrew:   Website: https://www.andrewleland.org/   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes    Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet. And we're gonna get to have a little bit of all of that today. I get to interview someone who I've talked to a couple of times and met a couple of months ago for the first time, I think the first time at a meeting, Andrew Leland is the author of the country of the blind. And he will tell us about that. And we will have lots of fun things to talk about. I am sure he's been a podcaster. He's an author. Needless to say, he's written things. And I don't know what else we'll see what other kinds of secrets we can uncover. Fair warning, right. So Andrew, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Andrew Leland ** 02:01 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:04 Well, I really appreciate you coming. Why don't you start by telling us a little about kind of the early Andrew growing up in some of that kind of stuff? Oh, sure. A lot of times go in a galaxy far, far away. Yeah. Right.   Andrew Leland ** 02:18 planet called the Los Angeles. I was born in LA. Yeah. And my parents moved to New York pretty quickly. And they split when I was two. So for most of my childhood, I was kind of bouncing in between, I live with my mom. But then I would go visit my dad on holidays. And my mom moved around a lot. So we were in New York, just outside the city. And then we moved to Toronto for two years, and then back to New York, and then to Santa Fe, New Mexico, and then to California, Southern California. So I lived a lot of places. And that was all before college. And yeah, what can I tell you about young Andrew, I, you know, I always was interested in writing and reading. And I come from a family of writers. My mom is a screenwriter, my grandfather was a playwright. My aunt is a novelist. And so and my dad, you know, remember when I was a kid, he had a column for videography magazine, and has always been super interested in digital technology, you know, from the earliest days of desktop publishing. And he worked for, like early days of USA Network, you know, so like this kind of shared interest that I inherited from my parents of, you know, creativity and media, I guess was one way you could put it, you know, storytelling and sort of like playing around with electronic media. And, you know, I grew up I was born in 1980. So by the time I was an adolescent, the internet was just starting to reach its tendrils into our lives. And I remember my dad bought me a modem. And when I was like, I don't know 14 or something. And I was definitely one of the first kids in my class to have a modem and you know, messing around on message boards and stuff. So that was very influential for me. You know, when it was around that time that I started to notice that I had night blindness, and I kind of diagnosed myself with retinitis pigmentosa on that early web, you know, before the days of WebMD or anything like that, but it just there didn't seem to be a lot of causes for adolescent night blindness. And so I kind of figured it out and then sort of just compartmentalized it like kick that information to the side somewhere dusty corner of my brain and just went about my life and then it wasn't until later my teenage years I'd already done a year in college I think in Ohio where I said you know what, this is getting a little more intrusive and then I've that my mom finally booked me an appointment at a at a real deal, you know, medical retinal Research Center and at UCLA. And then, you know, an actual retinal specialist said, Yep, you've got retina is pigmentosa. You'll you Will, you know, maintain decent vision into middle age and then it'll fall off a cliff. Once again, I just carried that information around for, you know, the next 20 years or so. And I'm 4040 How old am I? Mike? 22 years old? Right? Well, I actually I'm a December baby. So we gotta go, Okay, you got a couple of months to go a 42 year old medicine me. You know, and at this point in my life, you know, I had the, you know, I read about all this in the book, but I have a feeling that, like that part of his diagnosis way back when is coming true, you know, and I feel like, okay, it's all finally happening, and like, it's happening more quickly, but then my current doctor is kind of careful to reassure me that that's not actually happening. And that RP, you know, their understanding of it has evolved since then. And there's like, you know, different genetic profiles, and that, in fact, maybe I might have some residual useful vision for many years to come. But one of the things that I really wrestled with, both in the book and just in my life is the question of, you know, how much to claim to that site and how useful that site really is. And, and, and trying to figure out what, what it means to be blind, if I'm blind, you know, certainly legally blind, you know, I've half got about five or six degrees of, of central vision. You know, and so, so, so my so So, I've left your question behind at this point. But I wrote, I wrote this book, in some ways to answer that question of, like, where I, where I fit into this world of blindness? And am I an outsider, or am I an insider? like at what point do I get to be part of the club and all those really tricky questions that were really bothering me as a person, I got to kind of explore in the form of a book.   Michael Hingson ** 06:52 The interesting thing about what you said in the book, however, concerning Are you an outsider or an insider, Am I blind? Or am I not? is, of course a question that everyone wrestles with. And I personally like the Jernigan definition, have you ever read his article, a definition of blindness?   Andrew Leland ** 07:11 Oh, maybe tell me what he says. So what he says   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 is that you should consider yourself blind from a functional standpoint, when your eyesight decreases to the point where you have to use alternatives to vision to be able to perform tasks. Now, having said that, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use the residual vision that you have. But what you should do is learn blindness techniques, and learn to psychologically accept that from a blindness standpoint, or from a from a functional standpoint, you are blind, but you do also have eyesight, then there's no reason not to use that. But you still can consider yourself a blind person, because you are using alternatives to eyesight in order to function and do things.   Andrew Leland ** 08:00 Yeah, no, I have heard that from the NFB I didn't realize its source was Jernigan. But I really aspire to live my life that way. You know, I think it's, there are some days when it's easier than others. But, you know, I'm here, learning, you know, practicing Braille, using my white cane every day, you know, like learning jaws and trying to try to keep my screen reader on my phone as much as possible. And it's funny how it becomes almost like a moral mind game that I play with myself where I'm like, okay, like, Wow, it's so much easier to use my phone with a screen reader. Like, why don't I just leave it on all the time, but then inevitably, I get to like a inaccessible website, or like, I'm trying to write and write a text message. And I'm like, Oh, am I really going to like use the rotor to like, go back up, you know, to these words, and so then I turn it back off, and then I leave it off. And I'm just like, constantly messing with my own head and this way, and I've heard from, from folks with ARPI, who are more blind than I am, who have less vision. And there is the sense that like, one relief of even though it's, you know, incontrovertibly, incontrovertibly inconvenient to have less vision, right? Like there's there's certain affordances that vision gives you that shouldn't make life easier. But But one thing that I've heard from these folks is that, you know, that kind of constant obsessing and agonizing over like, how much vision do I have? How much vision am I going to have tomorrow? How am I going to do this, with this much vision versus that much vision? Like when that goes away? It is a bit of a relief I've heard.   Michael Hingson ** 09:28 Yeah, I mean, if it ultimately comes down to you can obsess over it, you can stress about it. What can I do if I lose this extra vision or not? Is is a question but the other side of it is why assume that just because you lose vision, you can't do X or Y. And that's the thing that I think so many people tend to not really deal with. I believe that we have totally an inconsistent and wrong definition of disability. Anyway, I believe that everyone on the planet has a disability. And for most people, the disability is like dependents. And my case from then my way from making that is look at what Thomas Edison did in 1878. He invented the electric light bulb, which allowed people to have light on demand. So they could function in the dark, because they couldn't really function in the dark until they had light on demand, or unless they had a burning stick or something that gave us light. But the reality is, they still had a disability. And no matter how much today we offer light on demand, and light on demand is a fine thing. No, no problem with it. But recognize that still, without that light on demand, if a if a power failure happens or something and the lights go out, sighted people are at least in a world of hurt until they get another source for light on demand. Mm hmm. I was I was invited to actually Kelly and Ryan's Oscar after party to be in the audience this year. So we went to the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel, which is fun. I used to go there for NFB of California conventions, a great hotel, man. So we got there about three o'clock on Thursday, on Saturday afternoon, and it was my niece and nephew and I and we were all there. And we just dropped our luggage off. And we're going downstairs when suddenly I heard screaming, and I asked my niece, what's going on. And she said, there's been a power failure in and around the hotel. And I'd love to try to spread the rumor that it was all Jimmy Kimmel trying to get attention. But no one's bought that. But but the but the point is that suddenly people didn't know what to do. And I said, doesn't seem like a problem to me. And you know, it's all a matter of perspective. But we really have to get to this idea that it doesn't matter whether you can see or not. And you pointed out very well, in your book that blindness is not nearly so much the issue psychologically, as is our attitude about blindness? Absolutely.   Andrew Leland ** 11:58 Yeah, I remember I interviewed Mark Riccobono, the current president of the National Federation of the Blind, and he made a very similar point, when we were talking about the nature of accommodations, which is something that I still I'm thinking a lot about is I think it's a very tricky idea. And a very important idea, which I think your your your idea of light dependency gets at, you know, in America, Bono's point was, you know, look, we have the the BR headquarters here in Baltimore, and we pay a pretty hefty electricity bill, to keep the lights on every month, and that, you know, the blind folks who work there, it's not for them, right? It's for all the sighted people who come and visit or work at the at the center. And in some ways, that's a reasonable accommodation, that the NFB is making for the sighted people that they want to be inclusive of right. And so that just even that idea of like, what is a reasonable accommodation? I think you're right, that we think of it as like the poor, unfortunate disabled people who need to be brought back to some kind of norm that's at the center. And there's the kind of reframing that you're doing when you talk about light dependency or that Riccobono is doing when he talks about, you know, his electricity bill, you know, it kind of gives the lie to puts the lie to that, that idea that, that the norm takes precedence. And the reality is that, you know, that we all need accommodations, like you say, and so what's reasonable, is really based on what, what humans deserve, which is which is to be included, and to be, you know, to have access equal access, that   Michael Hingson ** 13:38 ought to be the norm. Jacobus timbre wrote a speech called the pros and cons of preferential treatment that was then paired down to a shorter article called a preference for equality. And I haven't, I've been trying to find it, it's at the NFB center, but it isn't as readily available as I would like to see it. And he talks about what equality is, and he said, equality isn't that you do things exactly the same way it is that you have access and with whatever way you need to the same information. So you can't just say, Okay, well, here's a printed textbook, blind persons that's equal under the law, it's not. And he talks about the fact that we all really should be seeking equality and looking for what will give people an equal opportunity in the world. And that's really the issue that we so often just don't face, like we should. The fact of the matter is, it's a part of the cost of business, in general to provide electricity and lights. It's a part of the cost of business to provide for companies a coffee machine, although it's usually a touchscreen machine, but it's there. It's a cost of doing business to provide desks and computers with monitors and so on. But no one views provide Seeing a screen reader as part of the cost of business and nobody views providing a refreshable Braille display or other tools that might give me an equal opportunity to be a part of society, we don't view those as part of the cost of doing business, which we should, because that's what inclusion is really all about. You know, we don't, we don't deal with the fact or sometimes we do that some people are a whole lot shorter than others. And so we provide ladders or step stools, or whatever. But we don't provide cost of doing business concepts to a lot of the tools that say, I might need or you might need. Yeah,   Andrew Leland ** 15:37 yeah, it's one thing that I've been thinking about lately is, is really even just the challenge of understanding what those accommodations are. Because, you know, I think I think, practically speaking in the world, you know, you'll, you'll call up a blind person and say, What do you need, you know, like, we're trying to make this art exhibit or this, you know, business or this, you know, HR software accessible, what do you need, you know, and that one blind person might be like, well, I use NVDA, you know, or that one blind person might be low vision, right. And they might be like, I use a screen magnifier. And it's so difficult to understand, like, what the accommodations are, that would be, that would be adequate to cover, like a reasonable sample. And so just like, it's just so much more complicated than it originally seems, you know, when you have a really well meaning person saying, like, we really value diversity, equity and inclusion and accessibility. And but then like, the distance between that well meeting gesture, and then actually pulling off something that's fully accessible to a wide swath of the whatever the users are, is just, it's just unfair, quickly, huge. So that's something that I'm thinking about a lot lately is like how to how do you approach that problem?   Michael Hingson ** 16:46 Well, and I think, though, the at least as far as I can tell, I think about it a lot, as well, as I think any of us should. The fact is that one solution doesn't fit everyone, I'm sure that there are people, although I'm sure it's a minority, but there are people who don't like fluorescent lights as well as incandescent lights, and neither of them like other kinds of lighting as compared to whatever. And then you have people epilepsy, epilepsy who can't deal as well, with blinking lights are blinking elements on a webpage, there's there isn't ever going to be least as near as I can tell, one size that truly fits all, until we all become perfect in our bodies. And that's got a ways to go. So the reality is, I don't think there is one solution that fits everyone. And I think that you, you pointed it out, the best thing to do is to keep an open mind and say, Yeah, I want to hire a person who's qualified. And if that person is blind, I'll do it. And I will ask them what they need. You know, an example I could give you is, was it three years ago, I guess, four years ago, now actually, I was called by someone up in Canada, who is a lawyer who went to work for a college. And we were talking about IRA, artificial intelligent, remote assistance, a IRA, you know about IRA, you wrote about it. And she said, you know, a lot of the discovery and a lot of the documentation that I need to use is not accessible through even OCR to be overly accurate, because there will be deep degradations and print and so and so I can't rely on that. And certainly, Adobe's OCR isn't necessarily going to deal with all the things that I need. So I'd like to use IRA is that a reasonable accommodation? And I said, sure it is, if that's what you need in order to be able to have access to the information, then it should be provided. Now the laws are a little different up there. But nevertheless, she went to the college and made the case and they gave her iris so she could read on demand all day, any document that she needed, and she was able to do her job. And not everyone necessarily needs to do that. And hear in probably some quarters, maybe there are other accommodations that people could use instead of using IRA. But still, Ira opened up a VISTA for her and gave her access to being able to do a job and I think that we really need to recognize that one solution doesn't fit everything. And the best way to address it is to ask somebody, what do you need in order to do your job, and we will provide it or work it out. And here in the US, of course, given although they try to renege on it so much, but given the definition of what rehabilitation is supposed to do, they're supposed to be able to and help make people employable. They should be providing a lot of these tools and sometimes getting counselors to do that. Just like pulling teeth, I'm sure you know about that. Yeah,   Andrew Leland ** 20:02 I do. I do. I mean, it's interesting because I think in the face of that complexity of saying, like, Okay, we like interviewed a dozen blind people, and we like have this we know, our website is it's compatible with all the screen readers. And, you know, this event, like, you know, let's say you're doing an event, and the website is compatible with every screen reader, and it's got dynamic types. So the low vision users are happy, you know, and then the event starts and you're like, oh, wait, we forgot about the existence of deafblind people, and there's no cart, or captioners. Here. And, you know, and then the question for me another another thing I've been thinking about lately is like, how do you respond to that, you know, like, what is the? What is the response? And even just like on a kind of, like, a social level, like, is it scathing indictment, like you, you terrible people, you know, you have you have like, you don't care about deaf blind people. And so I hereby cancel you, and I'm going to, like, tweet about how terrible you are? Or is there like a more benign approach, but then you don't get what you need. And like, sort of, and I think, I think a lot of this is a function of my having grown up without a disability, really, you know, I mean, like, growing up, my I went through my, my full education, without ever having to ask for an accommodation, you know, maybe I had to sit a little closer to the board a little bit. But you know, nothing, nothing like what I'm dealing with now. And I think as a result, I am just now starting to wrap my head around, like, how when self advocates and what styles are most effective. And I think that's another really important piece of this conversation, because it's easy, I think, to walk into, you know, cafe x, or, you know, I just did it the other day, yesterday, last night, I saw this really cool looking new magazine about radio, which was an interest of mine, like great for radio producers. And it was print only, you know, and I wrote like, Hey, how can I get an accessible copy of this cool look in new magazine? And they're like, Oh, actually, we're, we're putting our resources all it were kind of a shoestring operation, all our resources are going into the print edition right now. You know, and then, so then I had a question before me, right? Like, do I say, like, Hey, everybody, like, we must not rest until you agitate for these people to make their accessible thing, or I just sort of wrote a friendly note. And I was like, there's a lot of like, blind radio makers out there who might find your stuff interesting. And I like, affectionately urge you to make this accessible. And then, you know, their hearts seems to be in the right place. And they seem to be working on making it happen. So I don't know what's your what's your thinking about that? Like how to respond to those situations.   Michael Hingson ** 22:34 So my belief is whether we like it or not, every one of us needs to be a teacher. And the fact is to deal with with what you just said, let's take the radio magazine, which magazine is it by the way? Oh, I   Andrew Leland ** 22:51 didn't want to call them out by name. Oh, I'm   Michael Hingson ** 22:52 sorry. I was asking for my own curiosity, being very interested in radio myself. So we   Andrew Leland ** 22:57 give them some good and bad press simultaneously. It's called good tape. Okay, it's brand new. And at the moment, it's as of this recording, it's print only. And,   Michael Hingson ** 23:06 and tape is on the way up a good tape. No, that's okay. Anyway, but no, the reason I asked it was mainly out of curiosity. But look, you you kind of answered the question, their heart is in the right place. And it is probably true that they never thought of it. I don't know. But probably, yeah, they didn't think of it. I've seen other magazines like diversity magazine several years ago, I talked with them about the fact that their online version is totally inaccessible. And they have a print version. But none of its accessible. And I haven't seen it change yet, even though we've talked about it. And so they can talk about diversity all they want, and they talk a lot about disabilities, but they don't deal with it. I think that it comes down to what's the organization willing to do I've, I've dealt with a number of organizations that never thought about making a digital presence, accessible or having some sort of alternative way of people getting to the magazine, and I don't expect everybody to produce the magazine and Braille. And nowadays, you don't need to produce a braille version, but you need to produce an accessible version. And if people are willing to work toward that, I don't think that we should grind them into the ground at all if their hearts in the right place. And I can appreciate how this magazine started with print, which is natural. Yeah, but one of the things that you can do when others can do is to help them see maybe how easy it is to create a version that other people can can use for example, I don't know how they produce their magazine, but I will bet you virtual Anything that it starts with some sort of an electronic copy. If it does that, then they could certainly make that electronic copy a version that would be usable and accessible to the end. And then they could still provide it through a subscription process, there's no reason to give it away if they're not giving it away to other people, but they could still make it available. And I also think something else, which is, as you point out in the book, and the country of the blind, so often, things that are done for us, will help other people as well. So great tape is wonderful. But how is a person with dyslexia going to be able to read it? Yeah, so it isn't just blind people who could benefit from having a more accessible version of it. And probably, it would be worth exploring, even discussing with him about finding places to get funding to help make that happen. But if somebody's got their heart in the right place, then I think by all means, we shouldn't bless them. We should be teachers, and we should help them because they won't know how to do that stuff.   Andrew Leland ** 26:10 Ya know, I love that answer to be a teacher. And I think there was I think there was a teacher Lee vibe in my, in my response to them, you know, like, this is a thing that is actually important and useful. And you ought to really seriously consider doing it. You know, I mean, I think if you think about the how people act in the classroom, you know, it's those kinds of teachers who, you know, who, who correct you, but they correct you in a way that makes you want to follow their correction, instead of just ruining your day and making you feel like you're a terrible person. But it's interesting, because if you, you know, I mean, part of a lot of this is the function of the internet. You know, I see a lot of disabled people out there calling out people for doing things and accessibly. And, you know, I feel I'm really split about this, because I really empathize with the frustration that that one feels like, there's an amazing film called, I didn't see you there by a filmmaker named Reed Davenport, who's a wheelchair user. And the film is really just, like, he kind of he mounts a camera to his wheelchair, and a lot of it is like, he almost like turns his wheelchair into a dolly. And there's these these, like, wonderful, like tracking shots of Oakland, where he lived at the time. And there's this there's this incredible scene where it's really just his daily life, like, you know, and it's very similar to the experience of a blind person, like, he'll just be on a street corner hanging out, you know, in somebody's, like, the light screen, you know, like, what do you what are you trying to do, man, and he's like, I'm just here waiting for my car, my ride, you know, like, leave me alone. You don't need to intervene. But there's this incredible scene where there are some workers in his building are like, in the sort of just sort of unclear like they're working. And there's an extension cord, completely blocking the path, the visible entrance to his apartment, and he can't get into his house. And he's just this, like, the, the depth of his anger is so visceral in that moment. You know, and he yells at them, and they're like, oh, sorry, you know, they kind of don't care, you know, but they like, they're like, just give us a second. And he's like, I don't have a second, like, I need to get into my house. Now. You know, he just has no patience for them. And it's understandable, right? Like, imagine you're trying to get home. And as a matter of course, regularly every week, there's something that's preventing you. And then and then and then you see him when he finally gets back into his apartment. He's just like, screaming and rage. And it's, you know, so that rage I think, is entirely earned. You know, like, I don't I don't think that one one should have to mute one's rage and how and be a kindly teacher in that moment. Right. But, so So yeah, so So I kind of see it both ways. Like, there are moments for the rage. And then I guess there are moments for the mortar teacher like because obviously, like the stakes of me, getting access to good tape magazine are very different than the stakes for read like getting into his apartment. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 Well, yes and no, it's still access. But the other part about it is the next time, that group of people in whatever they're doing to repair or whatever, if they do the same thing, then they clearly haven't learned. Whereas if they go, Oh, we got to make sure we don't block an entrance. Yeah, then they've learned a lesson and so I can understand the rage. I felt it many times myself, and we all have and, and it's understandable. But ultimately, hopefully, we can come down. And depending on how much time there is to do it, go pick out and say, Look, do you see what the problem is here? Yeah. And please, anytime don't block an entrance or raise it way up or do something because a person in a wheelchair can't get in. And that's a problem. I so my wife always was in a wheelchair, and we were married for two years she passed last November. Just the bye He didn't keep up with the spirit is what I tell people is really true. But I remember we were places like Disneyland. And people would just jump over her foot rests, how rude, you know, and other things like that. But we, we faced a lot of it. And we faced it from the double whammy of one person being in a wheelchair and one person being blind. One day, we went to a restaurant. And we walked in, and we were standing at the counter and the hostess behind the counter was just staring at us. And finally, Karen said to me, well, the hostess is here, I don't think she knows who to talk to, you know, because I'm not making necessarily eye contact, and Karen is down below, in in a wheelchair. And so fine. I said, maybe if she would just ask us if we would like to sit down, it would be okay. And you know, it was friendly, and it broke the ice and then it went, went from there. But unfortunately, we, we, we bring up children and we bring up people not recognizing the whole concept of inclusion. And we we really don't teach people how to have the conversation. And I think that that's the real big issue. We don't get drawn into the conversation, which is why diversity is a problem because it doesn't include disabilities.   Andrew Leland ** 31:16 Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, that seems to be changing. You know, I mean, you have you know, you have a lot more experience in this realm than I do. But But But haven't you felt like a real cultural shift over the last, you know, 2030 years about disability being more front of mind in that conversation?   Michael Hingson ** 31:36 I think it's, it's shifted some. The unemployment rate among employable blind people, though, for example, hasn't changed a lot. A lot of things regarding blindness hasn't really, or haven't really changed a lot. And we still have to fight for things like the National Federation of the Blind finally took the American Bar Association, all the way to the Supreme Court, because they wouldn't allow people to use their technology to take the LSAT. Yeah, lawyers of all people and you know, so things like that. There's, there's so many ways that it continues to happen. And I realized we're a low incidence disability. But still, I think, I think the best way to really equate it. You mentioned in Goldstein in the book, Dan, who I saw, I think, is a great lawyer spoke to the NFB in 2008. And one of the things he talked about was Henry, mayor's book all on fire. And it's about William Lloyd Garrison, the abolitionist and he was looking for allies. And he heard about these, these two, I think, two ladies, the Grimm case, sisters who were women's suffragettes, and they and he said, Look, we should get them involved. And people said, no, they're dealing with women's things. We're dealing with abolition, it's two different things. And Garrison said, No, it's all the same thing. And we've got to get people to recognize that it really is all the same thing. The you mentioned, well, you mentioned Fred Schroeder and the American Association of Persons with Disabilities at various points in the book. And in 1997. Fred, when he was RSA Commissioner, went to speak to the AAPD talking about the fact that we should be mandating Braille be taught in schools to all blind and low vision kids. And the way he tells me the story, they said, Well, that's a blindness issue. That's not our issue, because most of those people weren't blind. And that's unfortunate, because the reality is, it's all the same thing.   Andrew Leland ** 33:41 Yeah, no, that's something, uh, Dan Goldstein was a really important person for me to meet very early on in the process of writing the book, because I mean, just because he's, he's brilliant. And yeah, such a long history of, of arguing in a very, you know, legalistic, which is to say, very precise, and, you know, method, methodical way. A lot of these questions about what constitutes a reasonable accommodation, you know, as in like, his, his, the lawsuits that he's brought on behalf of the NFB have really broken ground have been incredibly important. So he's, he was a wonderful resource for me. You know, one of the things that he and I talked about, I remember at the beginning, and then, you know, I had lunch with him earlier this week, you know, we still are talking about it. And it's exactly that that question of, you know, the thing that the thing that really dogged me as I pursued, writing this book, and one of the kinds of questions that hung over it was this question of identity. And, you know, like, the sense that like the NFB argues that blindness is not what defines you. And yet, there it is, in their name, the National Federation of the Blind by and like, Where does where does this identity fit? And, you know, and I think that when you talk about other identities like Like the African American civil rights movement, or, you know, you mentioned the suffragette movement, you know, the feminist movement. You know, and it's interesting to compare these other identity based civil rights movements, and the organized by movement and the disability rights movement. And think about the parallels, but then there's also I think, disconnects as well. And so that was one of the things that I was it was really, really challenging for me to, to write about, but I think it's a really important question. And one that's, that's really evolving right now. You know, one of the things that I discovered was that, you know, in addition to the sort of blind or disability rights movement, that's very much modeled on the civil rights model of like, you know, my the first time I went to the NFB convention in 2018, you know, the banquet speech that Mark Riccobono gave was all about the speech of women and the women in the Federation, you know, which, which someone told me afterwards like, this is all new territory for the NFB, like, you know, they don't, there, there hasn't traditionally been this sort of emphasis on, including other identities, you know, and I found that was, I found that interesting, but then also, I was so struck by a line in that speech, where Riccobono said, you know, the fact that they were women is not as important as the fact that they were blind people fighting for, you know, whatever was like the liberation of blindness. And, you know, so it's, there's still always this emphasis on blindness as, like, the most important organizing characteristic of somebody is a part of that movement. And it makes total sense, right, it's the National Federation of the Blind, and they're fighting that 70% unemployment rate. And, you know, I think by their lights, you don't get there by you know, taking your eyes off the prize in some ways. And, and so I was really struck by some of these other groups that I encountered, particularly in 2020, when a lot of the sort of identity right questions came to the fore with the murder of George Floyd, right. You know, and then I was attending, you know, because it was 2020 it was that the convention was online, and I you know, I read it, this is all in the book, I, I went to the LGBT queue meet up, and which, which is also like a shockingly recent development at the NFB, you know, there's this notorious story where President Maher, you know, ostentatiously tears up a card, at a at an NFB convention where there are LGBT. NFB is trying to organize and have an LGBTQ meet up and he sort of ostentatiously tears it up as soon as he reads what's on the card. You know, a lot of still raw pain among NF beers who I talked to about that incident, anyway, like that this this LGBTQ meetup, you know, there's, there's a speaker who's not part of the NFB named justice, shorter, who works in DC, she's, she's blind, you know, and she's part of what is called the, you know, the Disability Justice Movement, which is very much about decentering whiteness, from the disability rights struggle and centering, black, queer, you know, people of color, who are also disabled, and and in some ways, I've found the NFB struggling to, to connect with with that model. You know, I talked to a Neil Lewis, who's the highest ranking black member of the NFV, you know, and he wrote this really fascinating Braille monitor article in the wake of, of George Floyd's death, where he's sort of really explicitly trying to reconcile, like Black Lives Matter movement with live the life you want, you know, with with NFB slogans, and it's, it's a tough thing to do, he has a tough job and trying to do that, because because of the thing, you know, that that I'm saying about Riccobono, right, it's like he is blind is the most important characteristic, or where do these other qualities fit? So it's a very contemporary argument. And it's one that I think the the organized blind movement is still very actively wrestling with.   Michael Hingson ** 39:02 I think it's a real tough thing. I think that blindness shouldn't be what defines me, but it's part of what defines me, and it shouldn't be that way. It is one of the characteristics that I happen to have, which is why I prefer that we start recognizing that disability doesn't mean lack of ability. Disability is a characteristic that manifests itself in different ways to people and in our case, blindness as part of that. For Women. Women is being a woman as part of it for men being a man as part of it for being short or tall, or black or whatever. Those are all part of what defines us. I do think that the National Federation of the Blind was an organization that evolved because, as I said earlier, we're not being included in the conversation and I think that for the Federation and blindness is the most important thing and ought to be the most important thing. And I think that we need to be very careful as an organization about that. Because if we get too bogged down in every other kind of characteristic that defines people, and move away too much from dealing with blindness, we will weaken what the message and the goals of the National Federation of the Blind are. But we do need to recognize that blindness isn't the only game in town, like eyesight isn't the only game in town. But for us, blindness is the main game in town, because it's what we deal with as an organization. Well,   Andrew Leland ** 40:40 how do you reconcile that with the idea that you were talking about before with with, you know, with the argument that like, you know, with the historical example of, you know, it's the same fight the suffragettes and like it because it doesn't that kind of, isn't that kind of contradicting that idea that like, having the intersection of identities, you know, and these movements all being linked by some kind of grand or systemic oppression, you know, so it is it is relevant? Well,   Michael Hingson ** 41:06 it is, yeah, and I'm not saying it any way that it's not relevant. What I am saying, though, is the case of the Grimm case, sisters, he wanted their support and support of other supportive other people, Garrison did in terms of dealing with abolition, which was appropriate, their main focus was women's suffrage, but it doesn't mean that they can't be involved in and recognize that we all are facing discrimination, and that we can start shaping more of our messages to be more inclusive. And that's the thing that that I don't think is happening nearly as much as it ought to. The fact is that, it doesn't mean that blind people shouldn't be concerned about or dealing with LGBTQ or color, or gender or whatever. Yeah. But our main common binding characteristic is that we're all blind men. So for us, as an organization, that should be what we mostly focus on. It also doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aware of and advocate for and fight for other things as well. But as an organization, collectively, the goal really needs to be dealing with blindness, because if you dilute it too much, then you're not dealing with blindness. And the problem with blindness as being a low incidence disability, that's all too easy to make happen. Right?   Andrew Leland ** 42:35 Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting, just thinking about that question of dilution versus strengthening, you know, because I think I think if you ask somebody in the Disability Justice Movement, the dilution happens precisely, with an overemphasis on a single disability, right, and then you lose these like broader coalition's that you can build to, you know, I think I think it comes down to maybe like the way that you are our analysts analyzing the structures of oppression, right, like, right, what is it that's creating that 70% unemployment? Is it something specifically about blindness? Or is it like a broader ableist structure that is connected to a broader racist structure? You know, that's connected to a broader misogynist structure? You know, and I think if you start thinking in those structural terms, then like, coalition building makes a lot more sense, because it's like, I mean, you know, I don't know what kind of political affiliation or what but political orientation to take with us, you know, but certainly the Disability Justice Movement is pretty radically to the left, right. And I think traditionally, the NFB, for instance, has had a lot more socially conservative members and leaders. And so it's, you know, that reconciliation feels almost impossibly vast to to think of like an organization like the NFB taking the kind of like, abolitionist stance that a lot of these disability justice groups take to say, like, actually, capitalism is the problem, right. So yeah, so I mean, the thought experiment only goes so far, like, what like a Disability Justice oriented NFP would look like. But you know, that I think there are young members, you know, and I do think it's a generational thing too. Like, I think there are NF beers in their 20s and 30s, who are really wrestling with those questions right now. And I'm really interested to see what they come up with.   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 I think that the biggest value that the NFB brings overall, and I've actually heard this from some ACB people as well, is that the ENFP has a consistent philosophy about what blindness is and what blindness is. And and that is probably the most important thing that the NFP needs to ensure that it that it doesn't lose. But I think that the whole and the NFP used to be totally As coalition building that goes back to Jernigan and Mauer, although Mauer started to change some of that, and I think it will evolve. But you know, the NFB. And blind people in general have another issue that you sort of brought up in the book, you talk about people who are deaf and hard of hearing, that they form into communities and that they, they have a culture. And we don't see nearly as much of that in the blindness world. And so as a result, we still have blind people or sighted people referring to us and and not ever being called out as blind or visually impaired. But you don't find in the deaf community that people are talking about deaf or hearing impaired, you're liable to be shot. It's deaf or hard of hearing. And yeah, the reality is, it ought to be blind or low vision, because visually impaired is ridiculous on several levels visually, we're not different and impaired. What that's that's a horrible thing to say. But as a as an as a group. I was going to use community, but I but I guess the community isn't, as well formed to deal with it yet. We're not there. And so all too often, we talk about or hear about visually impaired or visual impairment. And that continues to promote the problem that we're trying to eliminate. Mm   Andrew Leland ** 46:22 hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that question of blank community is fascinating. And yeah. And I do think that I mean, you know, from my reading the book, I certainly have found blank community. But, you know, if I really think about it, if I'm really being honest, I think it's more that I've met, it's, you know, my work on the book has given me access to really cool blind people that I have gotten to become friends with, you know, that feels different than, like, welcome to this club, where we meet, you know, on Tuesdays and have our cool like, blind, you know, paragliding meetups, you know, not that not that people aren't doing that, like, then they're a really, you know, I would like to get more if I lived in a more urban center, I'm sure it would be involved in like, you know, the blind running club or whatever, willing to hang out with blind people more regularly, but it doesn't feel like a big community in that way. And it's interesting to think about why. You know, I think one big reason is that it's not, it's not familial, in the same way, you know, Andrew Solomon wrote a really interesting book called far from the tree that gets at this where, you know, like, the when, when, when a child has a different identity than a parent, like, you know, deaf children of hearing adults, you know, there doesn't, there isn't a culture that builds up around that, you know, and it's really like these big deaf families that you have with inherited forms of deafness, or, you know, and then schools for the deaf, that, you know, and with deaf culture in particular, you know, really what we're talking about is language, you know, in sign language, right, creates a whole rich culture around it. Whereas, with hearing blind people, you know, they're more isolated, they're not necessarily automatically you have to, you have to really work to find the other blind people, you know, with, with travel being difficult, it's a lot easier to just like, Get get to the public library to meet up in the first place, and so on. So, yeah, it feels a lot more fractured. And so I think you do see groups more like the NFB or the ACB, who are organizing around political action, rather than, you know, like a culture of folks hanging out going to a movie with open audio description, although, I will say that the weeks that I spent at the Colorado Center for the Blind, you know, which is, you know, you can think of it as like a, you know, it's a training center, but in some ways, it's like an intentional blind community do right where you're like, that's like a blind commune or something. I mean, that is just a beautiful experience, that it's not for everyone in terms of their their training method. But if it is for you, like, wow, like for just such a powerful experience to be in a community, because that is a real community. And it nothing will radically change your sense of what it means to be blind and what it means to be in a black community than then living for a while at a place like that. It was a really transformative experience for me.   Michael Hingson ** 49:11 Do you think that especially as the younger generations are evolving and coming up, that we may see more of a development of a community in the blindness in the blindness world? Or do you think that the other forces are just going to keep that from happening? Well,   Andrew Leland ** 49:30 you know, one of the things that I discovered in writing the book was that, you know, and this is sort of contradicting what I just said, because there there is a blind community. And, you know, I read in the book like, at first I thought that blind techies were another subculture of blindness, like blind birders are blind skateboarders, right. But then the more I looked into it, the more I realized that like being a techie is actually like a kind of a basic feature of being a blind person in the world. You know, and I don't hear if it's 2023 or 1823, you know, because if you think about the problem of blindness, which is access to information, by and large, you know, you basically have to become a self styled information technologist, right? To, to get what you need, whether it's the newspaper, or textbooks or signs, road signs, or whatever else. So. So I do and I do think that like, you know, when my dad was living in the Bay Area in the 90s, you know, when I would go visit him, you know, he was a techie, a sighted techie. And, you know, he would always be part of like, the Berkeley Macintosh user group, just be like, these nerds emailing each other, or, you know, I don't even know if email was around, it was like, late 80s. You know, but people who have like the Mac 512, KS, and they would, they would connect with each other about like, Well, how did you deal with this problem? And like, what kind of serial port blah, blah, blah? And that's a community, right? I mean, those people hang out, they get rise together. And if there's anything like a blind community, it's the blind techie community, you know, and I like to tell the story about Jonathan mosun. I'm sure you've encountered him in your trailer. I know Jonathan. Yeah. You know, so I, when I discovered his podcast, which is now called Living blind, fully blind, fully, yeah. Yeah. I, I was like, oh, okay, here are the conversations I've been looking for, because he will very regularly cover the kind of like social identity questions that I'm interested in, like, you know, is Braille like, is the only way for a blind person to have true literacy through Braille? Or is using a screen reader literacy, you know? Or like, is there such a thing as blind pride? And if so, what is it? I was like? These are the kinds of questions I was asking. And so I was so delighted to find it. But then in order to, in order to get to those conversations, you have to sit through like 20 minutes of like, one password on Windows 11 stopped working when I upgraded from Windows 10 to Windows 11. And so like, what, you know, if you what Jaws command, can I use in and I was like, why is this? Why is there like 20 minutes of Jaws chat in between these, like, really interesting philosophical conversations. And eventually, I realized, like, oh, because that's like, what this community needs and what it's interested in. And so in some ways, like the real blind community is like the user group, which I think is actually a beautiful thing. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 52:14 Well, it is definitely a part of it. And we do have to be information technologists, in a lot of ways. Have you met? And do you know, Curtis Chang,   Andrew Leland ** 52:23 I've met him very briefly at an NFB convention. So Curtis,   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 and I have known each other Gosh, since the 1970s. And we both are very deeply involved in a lot of things with technology. He worked in various aspects of assistive technology worked at the NFB center for a while and things like that, but he always talks about how blind people and and I've heard this and other presentations around the NFB, where blind people as Curtis would put it, have to muddle through and figure out websites. And, and the fact is, we do it, because there are so many that are inaccessible. I joined accessibe two years ago, two and a half years ago. And there are a lot of people that don't like the artificial, intelligent process that accessibe uses. It works however, and people don't really look far enough that we're not, I think, being as visionary as we ought to be. We're not doing what we did with Ray Kurzweil. And look, when the Kurzweil project started with the NFB Jernigan had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it, but Ray was so emphatic. And Jim Gasol at the Washington office, finally convinced kindred again to let him go see, raised machine, but the rules were that it didn't matter what Ray would put on the machine to read it and had to read what Gasol brought up. Well, he brought it did and the relationship began, and it's been going ever since and, and I worked, running the project and the sense on a day to day basis, I traveled I lived out of hotels and suitcases for 18 months as we put machines all over and then I went to work for Ray. And then I ended up having to go into sales selling not the reading machine, but the data entry machine, but I guess I kept to consistently see the vision that Ray was bringing, and I think he helped drag, in some ways the NFB as an organization, more into technology than it was willing to do before. Interesting.   Andrew Leland ** 54:27 Yeah, I heard a similar comment. The one thing I got wrong in the first edition of the book that I'm correcting for subsequent reprints, but I really bungled the description of the Opticon. And my friend, Robert Engel Britton, who's a linguist at Rice University, who collects opera cones. I think he has got probably like a dozen of them in his house. You know, he helped me you know, because I didn't have a chance to use one. Right he helped me get a better version of it. But he also sent me a quote, I think it was from Jernigan was similar thing where like, I think they were trying to get the public I'm included with, you know, voc rehab, so that that students could not voc rehab or whatever like so that students could get blind students could use them. And it was the same thing of like, you know, this newfangled gizmo is not going to help, you know, Braille is what kids need. So I do that, that's all to say that that makes sense to me that resistance to technology, you know, and it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a sort of conservative stance of like, we understand that what blind people need are is Braille and access to, you know, equal access. And don't don't try to give us any anything else. And you know, and I think, to be fair, like, even though the Opticon sounded like an incredibly useful tool, as is, of course, the Kurzweil Reading Machine and everything that followed from it. There. There is, you know, talking, I talked to Josh Meili, for the book, who's who now works at Amazon, you know, he had this great story about his mentor, Bill, Gary, who, who would, who would basically get a phone call, like once a week from a well, very well meaning like retired sighted engineer, who would say like, oh, you know, what the blind need? It's like the laser cane, right? Or the Yeah, it's like, basically like a sippy cup for blind people like so that they don't spill juice all over themselves. And, you know, and Gary would very patiently be like, Oh, actually, they don't think that that would be helpful to do probably, yeah. Talk to a blind person first, maybe before you spend any more time trying to invent something that blind people don't need. So I think that resistance to like newfangled technology, there's a good reason for it. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 56:26 there is but the willingness to take the Opticon. Look, I think the fastest I ever heard of anybody reading with an optical was like 70 or 80 words a minute, and there are only a few people who did that. Yeah. You know, Candy Lynnville, the daughter of the engineer who invented it, could and Sue Mel Rose, who was someone I knew, was able to and a few people were but what the Opticon did do even if it was slow, yeah, it was it still gave you access to information that you otherwise didn't get access to. And, and I had an optic on for a while. And the point was, you could learn to read and learn printed letters and learn to read them. It wasn't fast. But you could still do it. Yeah. And so it, it did help. But it wasn't going to be the panacea. I think that tele sensory systems wanted it to be you know, and then you talked about Harvey Lauer who also develop and was involved in developing the stereo toner, which was the audience since the audio version of the optic comm where everything was represented audio wise, and, and I spent a lot of time with Harvey Harvey at Heinz a long time ago. But the the fact is, I think the question is valid is listening, and so on literacy is literacy, like Braille. And I think there is a difference there is, are you illiterate, if you can't read Braille, you point out the issues about grammar, the issues about spelling and so on. And I think that there is a valid reason for people learning Braille at the Colorado Center, they would tell you, for senior blind people, you may not learn much Braille, but you can learn enough to be able to take notes and things like that, or, or put labels on your, your soup cans, and so on. So it's again, going to be different for different people. But we are in a society where Braille has been so de emphasized. And that's the fault of the educational system for not urging and insisting that more people be able to use Braille. And that's something that we do have to deal with. So I think there is a literacy problem when people don't learn braille. But I also think that, again, there are a lot of things that Braille would be good for, but using audio makes it go faster. It doesn't mean you shouldn't learn braille, though, right? Yeah,   Andrew Leland ** 58:51 no, it's another I think it's interesting. And it's a related idea, this, this sense that technology, you know, this like, just sort of wave your hands and say the word technology as a sort of panacea, where I think, you know, it's, it's a tragic story where, where people will say, Oh, well, you know, little Johnny has, you know, some vision. So like, he could just use technology, like he doesn't need Braille. And it's fascinating to me, because I never really felt it. And maybe it's because I encountered Braille at a point in my development as a blind person that I really was hungry for it. But, you know, people talk about Braille the way they talked about the white cane, like the white cane, I felt so much shame about using in public, and it's such, it's just so stigmatized, whereas Braille, I just always thought it was kind of cool. But you know, you hear it so much from parents where they it's just like their heartbreak seeing their child reading with their fingers, which is, you know, and so as a result, they're like, why don't I just buy like a gigantic magnifier, that maybe in five years, you're not gonna be able to use anyway, but like, at least you're reading the same type of book that   Michael Hingson ** 59:56 half hour or 45 minutes until you start getting headaches. Exactly. And that, you know, I worked on a proposal once. I was an evaluator for it. We were in a school in Chicago, and one of the teachers talked about Sally who could see and Johnny, who was totally blind, literally, it was Sally and Johnny. And she said, Sally gets to read print, Johnny has to read Braille. Sally couldn't read print very fast. her eyesight wasn't good. Yeah, she got to read print. And Johnny had to read Braille. Yeah, it's the kind of thing that we we see all the time. And it's so unfortunate. So yeah, I, I do understand a lot of the technology resistance. But again, people like Ray helped us vision a little differently. But unfortunately, getting that conversation to other people, outside of the NFB community, like teachers and so on, is so hard because so many people are looking at it from a science point of view and not recognizing it as it should be. The the NFB did a video that did it. Several, they have had a whole series of things regarding Braille. But they interviewed a number of people who had some residual vision, who were never allowed to learn to read Braille. And invariably, these people say how horrible it was that they didn't get to learn to read Braille, they learned it later. And they're, they're reading slower than they really should. But they see the value of it. And it's important that we hopefully work to change some of those conversations. Yeah,   Andrew Leland ** 1:01:33 I mean, it gets back to our earlier in our conversation a

A consolidated version of the Mapping History episodes for the Second Turning Having completed mapping the Fourth Turning, Looking Back to see how Mapping History ties them all together 1534 - Returning to the early 16th century, where the Protestant Reformation has begun. Henry VIII began as a "Defender of the Faith" against Martin Luther, but within a few years is opposing the Church because he's unable to get an annullment of his marriage. It's a good landmark on our map, showing up almost exactly halfway between the Reconquista and the Spanish Armada, while being well-alligned with the spirtual concerns often seen during a Second Turning. 1629 - Between Puritans, creeping authoritarianism, breaking of norms of governing and an overall concern about how religion is making itself known in political affairs, the monarchy of Charles I should be a very effective landmark for this history map. But like some of the others we will come to view in the Awakening periods, the complexity of the political map can make it difficult. It's still useful for understanding what else is happening in the 17th Century, and seeing some of the connections that join different points in time. It was July 8 1841, in the middle of a revival, Jonathan Edwards would quietly give a sermon. It's our landmark for the Second Turning that's also known as the Great American Awakening. That Deuteronomy quote: https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-35.htm https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Angry_God Twenty-five-year-old William Lloyd Garrison published the anti-slavery weekly newspaper, The Liberator, starting on the first day of 1831.  The Letters of William Lloyd Garrison: I will be heard, 1822-1835 includes in its annotations on page 92 an objective summary of the circumstances of the Todd libel case. In 1896, at the Democratic National Convention, Williams Jennings Bryan rises to speak about the question of coinage, of money, but also about who was to be represented in the halls of power. Barely old enough even to be President of the United States, he makes a speech, full of religious symbolism,  that wins him the party's nomination for that office.  On April 3, 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. spoke in support of a strike of sanitation workers in Memphis, Tennessee. The speech he gave, with biblical imagery and references, especially to the Israelites, their escape from slavery, and what their leader, Moses, was allowed to glimpse before his death,  has since become known as the Mountaintop speech.  Video of the speech can be found on Youtube. The brief audio clips used here came from the internet archive. https://archive.org/details/IHaveBeenToTheMountaintopFullSpeech In the podcast audio, it might not be quite as clear as intended that "John Brown's Body" being referenced was a marching song of the Union army during the American Civil War. John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry, which led to John Brown's trial and execution, occurred just a year before the election of Abraham Lincoln as president.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown%27s_Body

Regular listeners and blog readers know my developing abolitionism as a role model for a sustainability movement. I've hosted several top scholars on the history of abolitionism in England and America, as well as the relevant constitutional law.Today's guest is a top historian and I found our conversation fascinating. He knows the history like an encyclopedia and can analyze it to answer my questions immediately.We talk about anti-slavery politics, abolitionism, Frederick Douglass's interpretation of the Constitution over time and in comparison to William Lloyd Garrison's and slave owners', and more.The big question we pursue is can we use the Constitution to make our nation sustainable? If so, how?You'll hear I'm narrowing in on answers. David and I will speak again. This conversation sets the groundwork. I believe it's history in the making, in that it's leading to political solutions for our environmental problems caused by our culture.David's home pageDavid's page at Yale Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Merriam-Webster's Word of the Day for August 26, 2023 is: suffrage • SUF-rij • noun Suffrage means “the right to vote in an election.” // The Nineteenth Amendment, which granted suffrage to women, was certified on August 26, 1920, making it an official part of the Constitution of the United States. See the entry > Examples: “The Liberty Tree dates back to 1763, and it played a significant role in the Underground Railroad. ... The tree also stands outside what were once the High Street stables of Edward E. Bennett, a local hotel keeper who sheltered enslaved people seeking freedom along the Underground Railroad. During the 19th century, people often gathered around the tree to hear speeches by leaders of the time such as William Lloyd Garrison, Lucy Stone, and Douglass on subjects ranging from abolition to women's suffrage.” — Tiana Woodard, The Boston Globe, 8 July 2023 Did you know? Why would a 17th-century writer warn people that a chapel was only for “private or secret suffrages”? Because suffrage has been used since the 14th century to mean “prayer” (especially a prayer requesting divine help or intercession). So how did suffrage come to mean “a vote” or “the right to vote”? In answering that question, we get a lesson about the ways Latin words enter English. The Latin word suffrāgium has a number of vote-related meanings, including “a vote cast in an assembly” and “the right to vote.” In Medieval Latin, this same word had expanded to mean “vote, selection, aid, support, intercessory prayer,” and it's this suffrāgium that gave us the prayer kind of suffrage in the 14th century. It wasn't until the 16th century that English speakers mined the older—the classical—Latin suffrāgium for a word to use with regard to voting, and especially to refer to the right to vote.

Last Constitution Day, we traced the origins of free speech in the United States from colonial America to the ratification of the Bill of Rights in 1791. In this episode, we jump forward to the antebellum period, where abolitionists such as Frederick Douglass, John Quincy Adams, William Lloyd Garrison, and Angelina Grimké clashed with pro-slavery advocates over the monumental issue of slavery. Journalist and author Damon Root, FIRE Senior Fellow Jacob Mchangama, and Washington and Lee University professor Lucas Morel join the show this week to explore how free speech and the free press became the essential tools in the abolitionists' campaign for freedom.  Show notes: Transcript “Free Speech: A History from Socrates to Social Media” by Jacob Mchangama “Glorious Liberty: Frederick Douglass and the Fight for an Anti-Slavery Constitution” by Damon Root “Speaking the Truth” by Lucas Morel (Persuasion) “A Plea for Free Speech in Boston” by Federick Douglass (National Constitution Center) “Frederick Douglass” (The First Amendment Encyclopedia) “What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?” by Frederick Douglass (Teaching American History) “With the Freedom of Speech, the Responsibility to Listen” (Ford Foundation)   www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Produced by AMPTV, this over 2-hour special celebrating Juneteenth reviews the important points in history in the Anti-Slavery Movement, the Civil War, the history behind Juneteenth, as well as reflecting on abolitionists and historical figures such as, Phyllis Wheatley, Harriet Beecher Stowe, William Lloyd Garrison, Frederick Douglass, Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman and former slave, Laura Smalley of Hempstead, Texas (1941.)Meanwhile, watch the late Chadwick Boseman perform a passionate an excerpt of Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass.

Between the 1770s and 1860s, people across the globe relied on physiognomy and phrenology to evaluate human worth. Physiognomy refers to using facial features as an indication of an individual's character, while phrenology is a term for the study of the shape and size of the cranium as a measure of intelligence.  Today, many dismiss these ideas as pseudoscience but Dr. Rachel E. Walker argues these scientific approaches significantly shaped American society as “pervasive social practices and intellectual philosophies that people used to better understand their own brains, bodies, and behaviors.” Beauty and the Brain: The Science of Human Nature in Early America (U Chicago Press, 2022) explores how these areas of study were once embraced by people of different backgrounds and political leanings. On the one hand, they were deployed to preserve social and political hierarchies – science functioned as a tool of oppression. But physiognomy and phrenology were also creatively deployed by activists (e.g., Frederick Douglas, Lucretia Mott, William Lloyd Garrison, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Margaret Fuller) to fight for racial justice and gender equality. In her in depth study of a largely ignored part of American history, Dr. Walker demonstrates how physiognomy and phrenology have shaped both science and our political landscape. Dr. Rachel E. Walker is an Assistant Professor of History at the University of Hartford. She teaches courses on race, gender, science, and sexuality. Beauty and the Brain is her first book and was a finalist for the Organization of American Historians' Frederick Jackson Turner Prize. John Sebastiani served as the editorial assistant for this podcast. Susan Liebell is Dirk Warren '50 Professor of Political Science at Saint Joseph's University in Philadelphia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Between the 1770s and 1860s, people across the globe relied on physiognomy and phrenology to evaluate human worth. Physiognomy refers to using facial features as an indication of an individual's character, while phrenology is a term for the study of the shape and size of the cranium as a measure of intelligence.  Today, many dismiss these ideas as pseudoscience but Dr. Rachel E. Walker argues these scientific approaches significantly shaped American society as “pervasive social practices and intellectual philosophies that people used to better understand their own brains, bodies, and behaviors.” Beauty and the Brain: The Science of Human Nature in Early America (U Chicago Press, 2022) explores how these areas of study were once embraced by people of different backgrounds and political leanings. On the one hand, they were deployed to preserve social and political hierarchies – science functioned as a tool of oppression. But physiognomy and phrenology were also creatively deployed by activists (e.g., Frederick Douglas, Lucretia Mott, William Lloyd Garrison, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Margaret Fuller) to fight for racial justice and gender equality. In her in depth study of a largely ignored part of American history, Dr. Walker demonstrates how physiognomy and phrenology have shaped both science and our political landscape. Dr. Rachel E. Walker is an Assistant Professor of History at the University of Hartford. She teaches courses on race, gender, science, and sexuality. Beauty and the Brain is her first book and was a finalist for the Organization of American Historians' Frederick Jackson Turner Prize. John Sebastiani served as the editorial assistant for this podcast. Susan Liebell is Dirk Warren '50 Professor of Political Science at Saint Joseph's University in Philadelphia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

Between the 1770s and 1860s, people across the globe relied on physiognomy and phrenology to evaluate human worth. Physiognomy refers to using facial features as an indication of an individual's character, while phrenology is a term for the study of the shape and size of the cranium as a measure of intelligence.  Today, many dismiss these ideas as pseudoscience but Dr. Rachel E. Walker argues these scientific approaches significantly shaped American society as “pervasive social practices and intellectual philosophies that people used to better understand their own brains, bodies, and behaviors.” Beauty and the Brain: The Science of Human Nature in Early America (U Chicago Press, 2022) explores how these areas of study were once embraced by people of different backgrounds and political leanings. On the one hand, they were deployed to preserve social and political hierarchies – science functioned as a tool of oppression. But physiognomy and phrenology were also creatively deployed by activists (e.g., Frederick Douglas, Lucretia Mott, William Lloyd Garrison, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Margaret Fuller) to fight for racial justice and gender equality. In her in depth study of a largely ignored part of American history, Dr. Walker demonstrates how physiognomy and phrenology have shaped both science and our political landscape. Dr. Rachel E. Walker is an Assistant Professor of History at the University of Hartford. She teaches courses on race, gender, science, and sexuality. Beauty and the Brain is her first book and was a finalist for the Organization of American Historians' Frederick Jackson Turner Prize. John Sebastiani served as the editorial assistant for this podcast. Susan Liebell is Dirk Warren '50 Professor of Political Science at Saint Joseph's University in Philadelphia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/political-science

Between the 1770s and 1860s, people across the globe relied on physiognomy and phrenology to evaluate human worth. Physiognomy refers to using facial features as an indication of an individual's character, while phrenology is a term for the study of the shape and size of the cranium as a measure of intelligence.  Today, many dismiss these ideas as pseudoscience but Dr. Rachel E. Walker argues these scientific approaches significantly shaped American society as “pervasive social practices and intellectual philosophies that people used to better understand their own brains, bodies, and behaviors.” Beauty and the Brain: The Science of Human Nature in Early America (U Chicago Press, 2022) explores how these areas of study were once embraced by people of different backgrounds and political leanings. On the one hand, they were deployed to preserve social and political hierarchies – science functioned as a tool of oppression. But physiognomy and phrenology were also creatively deployed by activists (e.g., Frederick Douglas, Lucretia Mott, William Lloyd Garrison, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Margaret Fuller) to fight for racial justice and gender equality. In her in depth study of a largely ignored part of American history, Dr. Walker demonstrates how physiognomy and phrenology have shaped both science and our political landscape. Dr. Rachel E. Walker is an Assistant Professor of History at the University of Hartford. She teaches courses on race, gender, science, and sexuality. Beauty and the Brain is her first book and was a finalist for the Organization of American Historians' Frederick Jackson Turner Prize. John Sebastiani served as the editorial assistant for this podcast. Susan Liebell is Dirk Warren '50 Professor of Political Science at Saint Joseph's University in Philadelphia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/intellectual-history

Between the 1770s and 1860s, people across the globe relied on physiognomy and phrenology to evaluate human worth. Physiognomy refers to using facial features as an indication of an individual's character, while phrenology is a term for the study of the shape and size of the cranium as a measure of intelligence.  Today, many dismiss these ideas as pseudoscience but Dr. Rachel E. Walker argues these scientific approaches significantly shaped American society as “pervasive social practices and intellectual philosophies that people used to better understand their own brains, bodies, and behaviors.” Beauty and the Brain: The Science of Human Nature in Early America (U Chicago Press, 2022) explores how these areas of study were once embraced by people of different backgrounds and political leanings. On the one hand, they were deployed to preserve social and political hierarchies – science functioned as a tool of oppression. But physiognomy and phrenology were also creatively deployed by activists (e.g., Frederick Douglas, Lucretia Mott, William Lloyd Garrison, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Margaret Fuller) to fight for racial justice and gender equality. In her in depth study of a largely ignored part of American history, Dr. Walker demonstrates how physiognomy and phrenology have shaped both science and our political landscape. Dr. Rachel E. Walker is an Assistant Professor of History at the University of Hartford. She teaches courses on race, gender, science, and sexuality. Beauty and the Brain is her first book and was a finalist for the Organization of American Historians' Frederick Jackson Turner Prize. John Sebastiani served as the editorial assistant for this podcast. Susan Liebell is Dirk Warren '50 Professor of Political Science at Saint Joseph's University in Philadelphia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Between the 1770s and 1860s, people across the globe relied on physiognomy and phrenology to evaluate human worth. Physiognomy refers to using facial features as an indication of an individual's character, while phrenology is a term for the study of the shape and size of the cranium as a measure of intelligence.  Today, many dismiss these ideas as pseudoscience but Dr. Rachel E. Walker argues these scientific approaches significantly shaped American society as “pervasive social practices and intellectual philosophies that people used to better understand their own brains, bodies, and behaviors.” Beauty and the Brain: The Science of Human Nature in Early America (U Chicago Press, 2022) explores how these areas of study were once embraced by people of different backgrounds and political leanings. On the one hand, they were deployed to preserve social and political hierarchies – science functioned as a tool of oppression. But physiognomy and phrenology were also creatively deployed by activists (e.g., Frederick Douglas, Lucretia Mott, William Lloyd Garrison, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Margaret Fuller) to fight for racial justice and gender equality. In her in depth study of a largely ignored part of American history, Dr. Walker demonstrates how physiognomy and phrenology have shaped both science and our political landscape. Dr. Rachel E. Walker is an Assistant Professor of History at the University of Hartford. She teaches courses on race, gender, science, and sexuality. Beauty and the Brain is her first book and was a finalist for the Organization of American Historians' Frederick Jackson Turner Prize. John Sebastiani served as the editorial assistant for this podcast. Susan Liebell is Dirk Warren '50 Professor of Political Science at Saint Joseph's University in Philadelphia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

Between the 1770s and 1860s, people across the globe relied on physiognomy and phrenology to evaluate human worth. Physiognomy refers to using facial features as an indication of an individual's character, while phrenology is a term for the study of the shape and size of the cranium as a measure of intelligence.  Today, many dismiss these ideas as pseudoscience but Dr. Rachel E. Walker argues these scientific approaches significantly shaped American society as “pervasive social practices and intellectual philosophies that people used to better understand their own brains, bodies, and behaviors.” Beauty and the Brain: The Science of Human Nature in Early America (U Chicago Press, 2022) explores how these areas of study were once embraced by people of different backgrounds and political leanings. On the one hand, they were deployed to preserve social and political hierarchies – science functioned as a tool of oppression. But physiognomy and phrenology were also creatively deployed by activists (e.g., Frederick Douglas, Lucretia Mott, William Lloyd Garrison, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Margaret Fuller) to fight for racial justice and gender equality. In her in depth study of a largely ignored part of American history, Dr. Walker demonstrates how physiognomy and phrenology have shaped both science and our political landscape. Dr. Rachel E. Walker is an Assistant Professor of History at the University of Hartford. She teaches courses on race, gender, science, and sexuality. Beauty and the Brain is her first book and was a finalist for the Organization of American Historians' Frederick Jackson Turner Prize. John Sebastiani served as the editorial assistant for this podcast. Susan Liebell is Dirk Warren '50 Professor of Political Science at Saint Joseph's University in Philadelphia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lucy Stone is sometimes written about as the person who should be mentioned alongside Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, and Susan B. Anthony. She lived an incredibly unique life for a woman of her time and station.   Research: Michals, Debra “Lucy Stone.” National Women's History Museum. 2017. www.womenshistory.org/education-resources/biographies/lucy-stone Million, Joelle. “Woman's Voice, Woman's Place: Lucy Stone and the Birth of the Woman's Rights Movement.” Praeger. 2003. Kerr, Andrea Moore. “Lucy Stone: Speaking Out for Equality.” Rutgers University Press. 1992. Accessed online: https://archive.org/details/isbn_9780813518602/page/n323/mode/2up Blackwell, Henry B. “What the South can do. How the Southern states can make themselves masters of the situation. To the legislatures of the Southern states.” New York. Robert J. Johnston, printer. January 15, 1867. Library of Congress: https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/rbc/rbpe/rbpe12/rbpe127/12701100/12701100.pdf Tucker, Neely. “Stone/Blackwell Marriage: To Love And Honor, But Not ‘Obey.'” Library of Congress Blog. May 5, 2020. https://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2020/05/stone-blackwell-marriage-to-love-and-honor-but-not-obey/ com Editors. “Lucy Stone.” Biography. Com. Nov. 23, 2021. https://www.biography.com/activists/lucy-stone Smith, Bonnie Hurd. “Lucy Stone.” Boston Women's Heritage Trail. https://bwht.org/lucy-stone/ “Lucy Stone.” National Women's Hall of Fame. https://www.womenofthehall.org/inductee/lucy-stone/ “Garrisonians.” Vermont Christian Messenger. Jan. 30, 1850. https://www.newspapers.com/image/490750662/?terms=%22Lucy%20Stone%22&match=1 Hays, Elinor. “Morning Star.” New York. Harcourt, Brace & World. 1961. Accessed online: https://archive.org/details/morningstar00hays/page/n7/mode/2up Lang, Allison. “The 14th and 15th Amendments.” National Women's History Museum. Fall 2015. https://www.crusadeforthevote.org/14-15-amendments/ Britannica, The Editors of Encyclopaedia. "Lucy Stone". Encyclopedia Britannica, 14 Oct. 2022, https://www.britannica.com/biography/Lucy-Stone Wheeler, Marjoeiw Spruill. “New Women of the New South: The Leaders of the Woman Suffrage Movement in the Southern States.” Oxford University Press. 1993. McMillen, Sally Gregory. “Lucy Stone: An Unapologetic Life.” Oxford University Press. 2015. “Love and Protest in a Marriage.” Library of Congress. https://www.loc.gov/exhibitions/women-fight-for-the-vote/about-this-exhibition/seneca-falls-and-building-a-movement-1776-1890/family-friends-and-the-personal-side-of-the-movement/love-and-protest-in-a-suffrage-marriage/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Meet Paula F. Casey who for more than thirty years has worked to educate the public about the role that the state of Tennessee played in securing the passage of the nineteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. In the title of this episode, I referred to Paula as an “unstoppable suffragist”, not an “unstoppable suffragette”. Paula will explain the difference and the importance of these two words. I find this episode extremely fascinating and well worth the listen for everyone as what Paula says puts many things and ideas into historical perspective. I hope you find Paula Casey's comments as stimulating and informative as I. About the Guest: Paula F. Casey of Memphis has dedicated more than 30 years to educating the public about Tennessee's pivotal role in the 19th Amendment's ratification with a video, book, e-book, audiobook, and public art. She is also an engaging speaker on the 19th Amendment and voting rights. She was just named Chair of the National Votes for Women Trail (https://ncwhs.org/votes-for-women-trail/), which is dedicated to diversity and inclusion of all the women who participated in the 72-year struggle for American women to win the right to vote. She is also the state coordinator for Tennessee. Paula produced "Generations: American Women Win the Vote," in 1989 and the book, The Perfect 36: Tennessee Delivers Woman Suffrage, in 1998. She helped place these monuments - bas relief plaque inside the State Capitol (1998); Tennessee Woman Suffrage Monument (Nashville's Centennial Park 2016); Sue Shelton White statue (Jackson City Hall 2017). The Memphis Suffrage Monument "Equality Trailblazers" was installed at the University of Memphis law school after 5 years of work. The dedication ceremony was held on March 27, 2022, and is on YouTube: https://youtu.be/YTNND5F1aBw She co-founded the Tennessee Woman Suffrage Heritage Trail (www.tnwomansuffrageheritagetrail.com) that highlights the monuments, markers, gravesites and suffrage-related sites. How to Connect with Paula: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paula-casey-736110b/ Twitter: @pfcasey1953 Websites: paulacasey.com, theperfect36.com, tnwomansuffrageheritagetrail.com, memphissuffragemonument.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00   Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Well and a gracious hello to you wherever you happen to be today. This is your host Mike Hingson on unstoppable mindset. And today we get to interview a lady I met just a few weeks ago at one of the Podapalooza events. And if you remember me talking at all about Podapalooza, it is an event for podcasters would be podcasters. And people who want to be interviewed by podcasters, and anybody else who wants to come along. And we've had four of them now altogether, and I've had the opportunity and the joy of being involved with all of them. And Paula Casey is one of the people who I met at the last podapalooza endeavor. Paula is in Memphis, Tennessee, and among other things, has spent the last 30 years of her life being very much involved in dealing with studying and promoting the history of women's suffrage in the United States, especially where Tennessee has been involved. And we're going to get to that we're going to talk about it. We're going to try not to get too political, but you know, we'll do what we got to do and will survive. So Paula, no matter what, welcome to unstoppable mindset, how are you?   Paula Casey  02:29 I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a joy to talk with you.   Michael Hingson  02:34 Well, I feel the same way. And we're glad to do it. So let's start, as I like to do at the beginning as it were. So tell us a little bit about you growing up and all that and you you obviously did stuff. You didn't get born dealing with women's suffrage. So let's go back and learn about the early Paula.   Paula Casey  02:53 Okay, I grew up in Nashville, Tennessee, which is the capital of the great State of Tennessee. But you know, I was 21 years old before I knew that it was Tennessee, the last state that could possibly ratify the 19th amendment. And it's just mind boggling to me when I look back and think, Well, how did we learn about this? I said, basically, it was because the textbooks only had one or two sentences. And they usually said, a napkin women were given the right to vote in 1920 as though it were bestowed by some benevolent entity. And it wasn't until after college, and I met my dear friend, the light gray, Carol, when Yellen that I learned how significant the women's suffrage movement was, and how it is even more surprising that my state Tennessee became the last state that could read it back.   Michael Hingson  03:50 Well, so when you were growing up in high school and all that, what were you kind of mostly interested in? Because you didn't just suddenly develop an interest in history.   Paula Casey  04:00 I have good history teachers. And I'm very fortunate that I didn't have football coaches. I have real history teachers. And I was involved in Student Council. I was an active girl scout. My parents were very good about making sure that my sister and I had lots of extracurricular activities. And I was a good kid. I didn't do anything wrong. I was a teacher pleaser. I wanted to do well. I wanted to go to college because our parents brought us up girls are going to college. And we've my sister and I both knew that we were going to the University of Tennessee and mark small go big orange and go lady balls and just for the people who care about football, Tennessee right now is number one and the college football rankings. So we're happy about that. But I have always been a staunch supporter of University of Tennessee because that was where I really learned about how important history was. And I was journalism, major journalism and speech. So that helped me on my path to public speaking, and learning more about this nonviolent revolution really became my passion and helping to get women elected to office.   Michael Hingson  05:11 Well, let's deal with what you just said. I think it's an extremely important thing. I'll come at it in a little bit of a roundabout way, the Declaration of Independence talks about us having life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And it talks about all men are created equal. And all that spine, although I think if you ask most people, when we talk about being created equal, they interpreted as meaning everybody is supposed to be equal. But you pointed out that usually what people say is that women were granted the right to vote. Tell me more about that.   Paula Casey  05:51 Rights are crafted by the Constitution. And in the case of voting rights, the constitution provides for initially man with property white men of property. Then in 1870, the 15th Amendment provided for black man, the newly freed black male slaves. The 14th amendment is the first time the word male m a l. E appears in the Constitution. And the suffragists back then and let me just clarify this in the United States. It was suffragist, the British for the suffragettes and they were considered so radical that the Americans wanted to distinguish themselves. So people in the United States who advocated for women to have the right to vote or suffragist. So the constitution grants the right to vote and our Constitution has been expanded to provide for more groups to participate in the franchise, however, and I want to emphasize this set up by people understand us, what the 19th Amendment did was remove the barrier of gender, it does not guarantee a right to vote. Our United States Constitution does not guarantee the right to vote, it will grant the rights for removing particular barriers in our lighter Native Americans and Asians and all that. Well, at the end, I was around in the early 70s, when I was at University of Tennessee in Knoxville, when the 26th Amendment was ratified, which extended the right to vote to 18 year olds, and I got to vote in my first election when I was 19. And I have never missed an election. I just think it's so important that we vote because that's part of what democracy is all about. And the suffragists did not believe that democracy is a spectator sport. They believed in self government, and they wanted to participate in their government. That's why they fought for 72 years to win that right, and to be able to participate by voting and running for office.   Michael Hingson  08:13 So going back to when the Constitution was formed. So what you're saying is essentially, that the original Constitution truly was only dealing with men and not women being created equal, white man with property. Yeah. And what do you think about people today, who say that our constitution shouldn't be any evolving and evolutionary kind of thing, that we should go strictly by what the Constitution says,   Paula Casey  08:52 I have two words for you.   Michael Hingson  08:55 Why nice to be nice, be nice,   Paula Casey  08:58 white supremacy. That's what that means. When you talk about this originally, originalist stuff. It's silly. It represents white supremacy. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  09:09 And that's, that's really the issue. I don't know of any governing document that is so strict, that it shouldn't be an evolutionary kind of a thing. We grow our attitudes change, we learn things. And we realize that we've disenfranchise from time to time, which is kind of some of the what you've been talking about in history trope.   Paula Casey  09:42 And people who say that, yeah, I don't know if they really believe it. Yeah, you see these surveys or polls where they say, Oh, the average American didn't understand the Bill of Rights and the Bill of Rights wouldn't pass today. Well, thank goodness it did pass. And I want to say MIT to you that I don't think the 19th amendment would have been ratified in this country, had it not been for the First Amendment. And as a former newspaper journalist, I'm a big believer and the First Amendment, I've been a member of the National Federation of press women since 1977. And the First Amendment is absolutely our guiding star. And it is so important for people to understand the significance of the First Amendment, the Bill of Rights and all of the additional amendments, the founding fathers, and if there were some women in there, too, even though they don't get recognized, like Abigail Adams, who believed that the Constitution should evolve a non violent revolution is what it was about the passage of the Constitution. And when I speak every year, generally on Constitution Day, which is September 17, I always point out that Benjamin Franklin said, when he was asked in 1787, Dr. Franklin, what have you created? And he said, a republic, if you can keep it, and we need to heat those words. Tell us more. Why. I think that those individuals who were involved in the creation of the Constitution, and it was not an easy task. And there were very, very strong disagreements, but they did agree on democracy. And you know, Mike, that's what this is all about. Whenever we talk about the suffrage movement, whenever I'm involved in markers, or monuments, highlighting the suffrage movement, I always point out this is about democracy and the rule of law. The suffragists believed in democracy, and that is why they fought a non violent revolution, 72 years from 1848 to 1920. But I believe that they proved the Constitution works. That's what it's about. And   Michael Hingson  12:11 you say that because of the fact that that women's suffrage passed, or what, what makes you really say the Constitution works   Paula Casey  12:20 because they persevered. They utilized every tool available to them and a non violent way, particularly the First Amendment. And when you think about what is in the First Amendment, freedom of press, freedom to peaceably assemble the freedom to petition your government for redress of grievances, their ability to communicate, and to persevere for a cause in which they deeply believed. I mean, these women were not fly by night. They play the long game. And I think that's what we can learn from down the first generation of women. And this goes back to Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Lucretia Mott and Megan bloomer. All the people who were at Seneca Falls in 1848. It was July 19, of 20 of the bait Team 48. They believed in democracy, they believed in self government and rule of law. They persevered within the parameters of what was available to them to peaceably assemble to petition their government. And I've got to tell you, I got to go to the National Archives, back in the early 90s. And I saw the handwritten letter from Susan B. Anthony, addressing her concerns her grievances with the United States government. And all of these women who were out there fighting, I mean, literally doing everything they could to make sure this issue was not diminished. As many people tried to do, that it wasn't swept aside, they overcame enormous obstacles, but they believed in something greater than themselves. And that was democracy and the rule of law.   Michael Hingson  14:08 What is the lesson that we should learn today about the importance of women's suffrage? I mean, you've been dealing with this now for over 30 years. Well, a long time, actually. And so what is the real significance of it?   Paula Casey  14:23 Why is so significant about studying the suffrage movement is that these women were prepared for the long game. They knew that it was not going to happen overnight, or possibly within their lifetimes. They fought the long fought for the long game. And when you look at persistence, perseverance, everything that they embodied there were poignant. out they were absolutely brilliant and we need to understand what they did and how they worked. To secure a right that we all take for granted today. And that's why when I hear these silly things about, oh, the worst thing that ever happened, this crash was women getting the right vote, you know, and all that garbage. I just feel like we need to study what they did. And what was so significant, because it was peaceful, nonviolent, they adhere to the rule of law. They certainly enacted every part of First Amendment. And then those went and made it possible for us to have the rights we enjoy today. And you have to remember that everything that we enjoy today, these rights came because other people were willing to fight or dock for them. And that's the whole thing about the right to vote. I mean, I'm the widow of a Vietnam veteran, and my husband served in Vietnam. I know, we still have a lot of questions about that war. But my daddy, who just died this year, he was a world war two veteran as well as a Korean War veteran. My father in law was an Army veteran who was throughout World War Two. So I take this right to vote seriously. And when I think about what our having grown up in Nashville, and Tennessee, and I've been in Memphis, where Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was killed in 1968, fighting for equal rights. And I've been in Memphis since January 1981. So I'm very passionate about women's rights, civil rights, the right to vote, we need to know our history. And we need to understand that a lot of people fought died for us to have these rights, particularly the right to vote.   Michael Hingson  16:42 Well, without getting overly political about the process, we certainly seem to be having some challenges today, because there is a what appears to be a growing number of people who would retract a lot of the things that have been brought about and some of the rights that have been expanded and made available. And it's it's scary, I know that we who, for example, have happened to be persons with disabilities are worried about some of the voting issues. Because if they, if the wrong, people decide to take complaint and get complete control, they could pull back the Help America Vote Act, and the whole issue about having voting machines that are accessible and taking away accessible ballots and so on. And there's so many other things going on? How do we get people to truly understand what happened with women's suffrage and similar sorts of things? And how do we get people to recognize the dangers that we face today?   Paula Casey  17:47 That is such a great question. And I've got to tell you, Mike, I think about this just about every day. Here's what you got to remember, ever since the beginning of this country, we have had people who consider themselves superior, and who do not want everyone to vote, it took me a long time to understand that. Because, you know, growing up in Nashville, and I mean, I had a great upper middle class life. And, you know, I'm educated, I've traveled I mean, I think I'm a fairly nice person. And I want everybody to vote. And I just couldn't understand that there were people who would not want every American citizen to exercise the franchise, and that has become more and more apparent. And I have to tell you, I think that the election of Barack Obama had a lot to do with that with the backlash. And the idea that there are folks in this country who do not believe that everyone should have the right to vote. And so therefore, they consider themselves justified in putting up barriers to the voting process, which makes it incumbent upon people like us who want everyone to have access to the ballot, to try to figure out how to overcome the obstacles that they place in our path. At Bat, again, takes us back to the women's suffrage movement. Those women endured all kinds of ridicule. I mean, it just it's amazing when you look back and see the newspapers, and things that were written and said letters and things that are in archives, people who were dismissive both men and women, dismissive of the right to vote, because that was something that many people from the beginning of this country onward, felt like it should be limited, any access. So those of us who have been fighting for expanded access, are going to have to keep on fighting. We can't give up and that's what the suffrage just taught us cannot give up Have   Michael Hingson  20:01 you talked about the concept? And the fact that this was a nonviolent movement? Did those early suffragists experienced much violence from people?   Paula Casey  20:14 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Especially when they marched the 1913 suffrage parade in Washington, DC, and in New York City and night content, the I mean, Thurber police and looked the other way, a geonet. Something that's happening today, too. But the idea that not everyone celebrated having universal suffrage. And that's what I believe in universal suffrage, no matter what you believe. And you still should have access to the ballot, and we need to make it as accessible as we can. But we've just got to keep fighting because we've got to overcome the people that don't want everyone to have access to the ballot.   Michael Hingson  21:01 You studied this a lot. What do you think the Founding Fathers view would be today? When founding mothers for that matter?   Paula Casey  21:09 Better? Such a great question, because everybody likes to think that they know what they would think. And I have to tell you, I have been on a run of reading David McCullough's books. I am just really into BS, I'm researching 76 right now. And I've had John Adams forever. I've never finished it. So I'm going to finish that. Then I've got to do Teddy Roosevelt. And then I'm going to do Harry Truman. But the thing about John Adams, when Abigail wrote him to remember the ladies, he was dismissive. And he thought it was silly. And these man, okay, yes, they were products of their time. But there were very few real feminist among them. That's what made Frederick Douglass stand out because he was so willing to stand up for women's suffrage. But she looked back at those men. And I mean, honestly, my they didn't know any differently. You think about what they were through. And the idea that women should be equal participants in a democracy was certainly a foreign thought to them. But there were so many people. And there were also areas that didn't allow women to vote. But you know, New Jersey actually extended the franchise and then took it away. And then when people started moving westward, to develop the West, there were the men were adamant that because women were helping homestead and settled all of that land out there that they should be voting, if there were states that were not going to come into the Union if their women couldn't vote. So this is not that unusual of an idea. But it took particularly enlightened man and women who pushed for it to happen. And I've got to point this out. I do not bash man because it took the man and those 36 state legislatures to ratify a Ninth Amendment, they voted to willingly expand power, and that needs to be acknowledged. Weird, we're   Michael Hingson  23:20 we're dealing with this, this whole issue of suffrage and rights and so on. Were any of the early founders of the United States, right from the outset? Supportive or more supportive? Do you think? Or do you know,   Paula Casey  23:35 trying to think, abolition and suffrage became closely linked? Yeah. So for those who advocated the abolition of slavery, they were probably more amenable. But again, what this really is about is the whole idea of who is a citizen? And I think that's where and the founding of this country, clearly black people and Native Americans were not considered citizens. The question about women. I can't think right offhand of any, quote, founding father who advocated for women to bow, they may have come up, you know, some of them may have come around, but you look back and think, who are the guys that we think about as founding fathers? I don't think any of them was particularly feminist, or encouraging of women being thought of as citizens with full voting rights. And then you got into the issue of taxation without representation. You know, nothing's new. That's what you learned studying the women's suffrage movement is it's all been said or done for who is a citizen who should have the right to vote?   Michael Hingson  24:58 Well, I'm I'm think I mentioned to you When we chatted before, and you just brought up abolitionists, and I always remember the story of William Lloyd Garrison, who was trying to gain more people into the abolitionist movement. And he directed some of his people to contact the Grimm case sisters who were very staunch suffragists, right? And see, I got the word, right. And they said, No, we can't do that. That's not what their priority is. Their priority is all about women's separatists that's going to detract from what we're all about. And in Henry Mayer's book all on fire in telling the story, he says that Garrison said, it's all the same thing. And that's absolutely right. Whether it's the right to vote, whether it's the right to attend public school, whether it's the right of persons with so called disabilities to have equal access, which doesn't necessarily mean we do things the same way, but equal access to things in the United States. It's all the same thing. Right. And I think that's the most important message that we all want to take away. Or at least that's part of the important message that we should take away. I don't know how we change people's minds today, though, we're getting such a polarized world? And how do we get people to understand why being more open to everyone having equal opportunities, whether it be the right to vote or whatever? How do we get people to deal with that?   Paula Casey  26:45 I think we have to learn from what the separatists stat, we have to persevere. We have to be creative, and innovative. We just can't give up. This is the long game we are in for the fight of our labs. And it won't get better if people give up. That's why we've got the hang in there. And truly, it is about democracy, you either believe in democracy or don't. And that, to me is the bottom line. And when he talks about polarization, I think we also have to factor in disinformation, foreign governments being involved in our political processes. And frankly, as a former newspaper journalist, and someone with a journalism degree, I have to tell you, I think the media have failed us. They are not reporting on things that are happening. And I've got to tell you this mike, in the 1970s, my husband and I were in the newspaper business back then he was a great journalist, great editor. And we started watching the corporatization of news in the mid to late 70s. And now it's like what, six or seven corporations, on all the major media, this is not good for our country. We work for a family owned newspaper business in Tennessee, that was bought out. And then now you have these giant firms and hedge funds, evil, I think they're evil, and they're buying up all of the media, this is not good for our country. And this means it is difficult to get the message out to people. And I really thought that social media would help and if anything, is probably been more of a hindrance. Sadly,   Michael Hingson  28:35 when you don't have any kind of governing governors on what you do, like what we saw for several years recently, then, yeah, it certainly doesn't help does it? Not. So well fight disinformation, as well as apathy. Yeah, and apathy is certainly a part of it. And you talked about the importance of voting, and we I've talked to a number of people who have never voted, oh, I'm not going to do that it won't make a difference and so on. And they, and they continue to feel that way. And they just don't vote and they're not young people. But I've also found young people who do that, but I know some people who are in their 40s and 50s. And they've never voted in an election. And they're fine with   Paula Casey  29:28 that. Yeah, that's that's what's so sad because you've got to have parents or teachers, someone who inculcate in a young person, that it's important to better and I will tell you, my sister and I grew up in a home where my parents were two newspapers voted in every election. My sister and I knew that it was important, we registered to vote. I mean, I I got to vote first time and I was 19. But I registered as soon as I could, after the 26th Amendment was ratified. And I've just think People have got to understand that democracy doesn't work. If you don't participate, democracy is not a spectator sport. And here again, this is something else that this brings up. When did they stop teaching civics in the schools? I love civics. I love teaching civics talking about civics. That's part of the problem right there.   Michael Hingson  30:24 There are a lot of challenges. I think I know the answer to this one, since Tennessee was the 36th state to ratify the 19th Amendment. But why is it called the perfect 36?   Paula Casey  30:36 The editorial cartoonists of the day, the Tennessee the perfect 36 Because they did not know where that last state was going to come from. So think about here, let me set stage 3435 states have ratified. Three states absolutely refused to consider it because their governors were opposed. Connecticut, Vermont, Florida, nine states had outright rejected it. And berries were primarily in the south lawn with Maryland, a couple of years. Non states were checked it. It fell to Tennessee. And because Tennessee had a well organized group of suffragists across the state in all 95 of our counties, and we have wonderful man who supported this effort, including our United States senator Kenneth McKellar, who was from Memphis. So the stage was set. When Carrie Chapman Catt came to Nashville to stay at the Hermitage Hotel, which is fabulous. And I want your listeners to go to the heart teach hotel if they're ever in Nashville, because it's so significant in the suffrage battle. Both the Pro and anti suffrage forces stayed at the Hermitage and Carrie Chapman Catt stayed there. Along with Representative Joseph pan over from Memphis, who was the floor later, Carrie Chapman cat asked him to be the suffrage fight. So because of the editorial cartoonist and because we were the last state that could ratify, that's where the name of the perfect 36 came from.   Michael Hingson  32:20 Well, for you personally, what really got you interested in becoming so deeply involved in studying the suffrage movement because it's clearly become very personal for you.   Paula Casey  32:34 My husband, dad and July 1988. And Carolyn Yellin, spent a lot of time with me. We had actually been at the National Women's Conference in November of 1977. That was an exciting time I was one of the youngest delegates there. And Carol Lam talked to me about the research that she had done and and I want people to know about this because this is really important. After back McCain was killed in Memphis in 1968. Carolyn Yellin her husband, David Yellin, who was a broadcaster and several other folks put together a group called the search for meaning committee. And they compiled everything they could about what was happening in Memphis. And every book that has been written since then about Dr. King, and what happened in Memphis, has utilized their research. Well, while Carolyn was doing this research, she came across this Tennessee story and she was working with from Oklahoma. She didn't even come here from New York City. He ran the broadcasting department, a inaugurated at what was then known as Memphis State University. And Carolyn said, you know, this is kind of important. Yeah, that may, Tennessee was last, I think the ratify. So she started doing research. And she found descendants. And she also talked with two of the man who were still living. Harry Byrne died in 1977. Joseph Hanover did not got until 1984 and I met him in 1983. He was the for later, who Mrs. Cat had asked, Can the pro surfers votes together, had it not been for Joe Hannover. I'm telling you tonight, the amendment would not have been ratified in Tennessee. He Carolyn always said to me, he was the real hero. So we started working on a book because she had said she wanted to do this book. So I'm thinking I have a lot of graduated from UT Knoxville and the University of Tennessee press will want to do this book, because we have all this original research. So we're calling you to press. And the woman said to me, and we've already dealt with on women's suffrage, and was very dismissive. And I was just really stunned and I said Okay, thank you. So I started thinking about it later and I wished I'd had the presence of mind to say she nobody ever says that about the Civil War. You know, all they do is write books about the damn civil war. I mean, I grew up in Nashville, believe me, I had been, I was indoctrinated with Lost Cause mythology. So I start looking. And finally we get somebody who's willing to publish it. And you gotta remember this. We published it originally in 1998. I've done a re plan, and I've done the e book and the audio book, and Dr. Dre and Sherman came to Memphis in 1994. We started working on the book in 1996. We got the first edition published in May of 1998. And I was able to put it in Carolyn's hands, her breast cancer had returned, and she got in March of 99. So I was just so grateful that her research resulted in that book. And then Dr. Sherman, who had her PhD from Wright first wrote about the long journey from the Revolutionary War up to what happened in Nashville in 1920. So we're really proud of the book, and I continue to sell it to libraries and individuals because you know, that history is it's very well recorded in our book. And so I'm really proud of it and I've got a hold of a copy. The perfect body six, Tennessee delivers women's suffrage and the cover is Downtown Memphis Main Street, 1916. It was called The Great monster suffrage point.   Michael Hingson  36:29 Do you know if the book has been put into audio format today?   Paula Casey  36:33 Yes, Dr. Sherman read the audio books. I have an audio book and the ebook and awkward formats.   Michael Hingson  36:39 So is it on   Paula Casey  36:39 Audible? Yes. Oh, it's on lots of ebook platforms and an audio book platforms.   Michael Hingson  36:47 Well, great. Then I'm gonna go hunted down. I think that will be fun to read.   Paula Casey  36:54 Music terrible. I forgot period music. We had a great producer David Wolf out Albuquerque did the audio. But   Michael Hingson  37:02 here's a question totally off the wall. totally subjective. But do you think Abraham Lincoln would have supported this women's suffragists movement?   Paula Casey  37:15 I do. And let me tell you why. It's so interesting. You should ask that. Have you heard about Jon Meacham? snoo book?   Michael Hingson  37:22 No, I have not. Okay.   Paula Casey  37:23 Jon Meacham is a Tennessee boy. We were at the Chattanooga you know, he lives in Nashville May. I was in New York City for years and years. And he and his wife are in Nashville because he is a professor at Vanderbilt University. And he was on Lawrence O'Donnell, I think last night on Well, whenever it was on MSNBC, talking about his new book about Abraham Lincoln. And then there was like, Abraham Lincoln. I mean, it he has fast to think of keep up with Cain. He believed in abolishing slavery, but he traded people with dignity. And I think that he could have been persuaded that, you know, the union wasn't gonna provide as a women's voting union was gonna define over whether it was okay to enslave other human beings. And when you think about the idea that it was okay to own other human beings that's just repulsive just today, but back then, Lincoln had his work cut out for him. But I do think because he believed and he he studied them. She's such a thoughtful man. And I'm looking forward to reading John's book, because I think all of his books are terrific. But I really want to read this one, because I think Abraham Lincoln was enlightened in his own way, and he probably would have come around to support it. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  38:53 he just had other issues that were as important, if not more important, like keeping the country together if he could. Right. So it was, it was certainly a big challenge. And,   Paula Casey  39:07 you know, 1848, by Seneca Falls happened, but then the surfer just recognized that the Civil War was going to take priority over everything. And so they were essentially derailed, but it was after the Civil War. And the 14th and 15th amendments came up or 13th amendment, you know, to abolish slavery, but the 15th Amendment, extended the franchise to the newly freed black male slaves, and I want to point something out here. There's a lot of misinformation about who could vote and the aftermath of the Civil War and then later and they you heard this and I heard this a lot in 2020, during the centennial celebration, and let me point out that separatist endured a pandemic just like we have, and they persevered and they want to spike the pandemic. And there is a school We'll start, which I happen to agree with that the 1965 Voting Rights Act would not have applied to black women. Had the 19th Amendment not been ratified the 15th Amendment and the 19th Amendment event, the Voting Rights Act was about the enforcement of those two amendments. And when people say, Oh, we're black women are unable to vote. No, that is not true. The 19th Amendment did not say white women. It says equality of suffrage shall not be denied. I can't have sex. That's all it says I can't have sex. And so it removes the gender barrier to voting and had nothing to do with race. What did have to do with race was the states. The constitution grants the right to states set the policies and procedures for voting. And it was in the States where you have Jim Crow laws, and Paul taxes and literacy tests and all that garbage that was designed to keep people from voting. The states did it, not the Ninth Amendment. And we have documentation of black women voting in Nashville, Clarksville, Tennessee, about Tachyon and Memphis,   Michael Hingson  41:15 you have been involved in placing various suffragist related art around Tennessee. Can you tell us or would you tell us about that?   Paula Casey  41:25 Yes, I am very excited about this. When you go to a city, wherever you go in this country, you notice if you're working about the public art, and who is depicted in statuary, and for too long, we have not acknowledged the contributions of women and public art. So back in 1997, Van state senator Steve Cullen from Memphis, who is now my ninth district, Congressman Steve is great. Steve is the one who said we have got to have something inside state capitol. So put me on this committee. And he said you're going to serve on this committee. And there's going to be a blind competition that the Tennessee Arts Commission will sponsor and we're going to select somebody to design something to go inside state capitol because think about this, Tennessee ratified August 18 1920. And up until February of 1998. There was nothing inside the Tennessee State Capitol building that depicted Tennessee's pivotal role. Oh, American women's vote today, thanks to Tennessee. So Steve puts me on this committee. We have a blind competition. Owl on the far west Wednesday. And on the back of our perfect 36 book, I have a picture of the bar leaf that is hanging between the House and Senate chambers, and the Tennessee State Capitol building. Okay, fast forward to 2009. Former Vermont Governor Madeleine Kunin came to Nashville to give a speech at the Economic Summit for women and she was picked up by Tierra backroads and she said to the women who picked her up, take me to see your monument to the suffragist. I know that Kelsey was the state that made it Wow. And they said, Oh, Governor, we're so sorry, the state capitol building is closed. And this is where that bodily is hanging inside State Capitol. And she said to them, you Tennessee women should be ashamed. You should have something that is readily accessible. So that started our efforts to put together the Tennessee women's suffrage monument. And we commissioned our look bar and 2011 We got really serious in 2012. I was asked to be the president in May of 2013, which mount where you raise the money and I raise 600,000 for this $900,000 monument that is now in Centennial Park. Nashville. Centennial Park is gorgeous. It's historic. Susan B. Anthony was actually in that park in 1897. And she inspired and Dallas Dudley of Nashville to get involved Suffrage Movement. And Anne was beautiful and wealthy. And she became a great suffrage leader on the state level and the national level. So we got together at our McQuire studio in Nashville. He's at West Nashville. And they asked me who should we put on this minute but and because Carolyn Yellin had been my mentor and my friend, I said, we need to have an Dallas deadly from Nashville. Frankie Parris from Nashville who was a major black separatist, who registered over 2500 Black women to vote in Nashville in 1998. We had Sue Shaun White and Jackson who was the only Tennessee woman put in jail fighting for suffrage. And Abby Crawford Milton from Chattanooga, there wasn't really anybody that I was going to push for from Memphis at that moment because I knew that we were eventually going to do a Memphis separate monument. But I said, Karen Chapman Catt, who was originally from Iowa, and you know, okay, so yeah, New York, Carolyn Yellen said that Carrie Chapman Catt should have been the first woman to become a United States Senator from New York. But she was so spent after the savage battle and she had a serious heart condition. So I said when he put Carrie Chapman Catt on there because she wanted to pick it in statuary. She was brilliant. And so we had the spot women heroic scale. They're nine feet tall. They're in the Nashville Centennial Park. So that's the Tennessee one separate monument. Allen was commissioned to do to get our Knoxville I worked on the advising the Tennessee triumph and Clarksville, Tennessee. And it's fabulous. It's got a woman putting her ballot in the ballot box. And beyond Ben Jackson, I helped raise the money and that was only 32,000 to do a burst of soup shot right in front of Jackson City Hall and bed, Memphis, my hometown. We have the Memphis suffrage monument equality trailblazers, that monument cost $790,190 average every penny of it because I have wonderful friends, and a city council on a county commission that gave major money so that we could preserve the legacies of these important people. And so in the Memphis monument, which is at the law school, for the University of Memphis, facing the Mississippi River, I live right down by the river. You can see that monument in the daytime or at night. And what's so great about this, Mike is that people see it and they just rave about it. And school children go there and they read about these remarkable people. And I point this out to everyone when I'm doing chores, or when I gave speeches. The reason we do these markers and monuments is because these people deserve to be remembered. And when we're all gone, that was mine knits and markers will be there telling the story and I'm just grateful that I had been able to have this experience to preserve the wiper sees of these remarkable Oregon people.   Michael Hingson  47:35 Now as I recall the monument at the University of Memphis the ceremony dedicating it is on YouTube, yes. Do you know how people can easily find it? Do you know a link or   Paula Casey  47:50 I think if you go on YouTube, you can type in Downtown Memphis Commission because the Downtown Memphis Commission produced it. It's on their YouTube channel and I actually have it on my YouTube channel, Paula FKC. And I believe it's easy to find it was March 27 2022, the dedication ceremony for the Memphis suffrage monument, but you can actually see it and I've got to tell you this, I'm so excited. My friend, Michelle duster, who is the great granddaughter about to be Wales and I'm going to hold up her book out to be the queen Michelle gave me her family's blessing. And she and her brothers wanted to write the bio that's lasered on the class for ATAPI wills. And Alan had sculpted a bust of atopy Wales along with five others. And she was so excited about it. And we had so much fun when she came to Memphis. And it was just such a great experience for us to celebrate the wives of atopy wills and Mary Church, Terrell, and all of the people from Memphis, Shelby County, who fought to get that night keep that amendment ratified. And then those women whose careers were made possible in politics, because of the suffragists victory, said, Michelle has been a great ally and champion of our monument.   Michael Hingson  49:14 So I think we've talked around a lot of this, but ultimately, what can we learn from the Chuffer suffragists movement? What lessons can we take forward? And I guess even before that, do you think that those who led and were the basis of the separatist movement would be surprised at what we're experiencing today? Now?   Paula Casey  49:40 I think they would just take it in stride, and they would expect it because they've dealt with backlash, and obstacles, ridicule, sarcasm, obstructionism, they saw it all. That's why I keep telling people when you study history, you learned that nothing is new. And it is so important for us to recognize the people who help move history forward, they help make sure that our society goes forward and that we are on the right side of history, when it comes to the expansion of rights, and inclusion, diversity, inclusion, all of this should just be something that we do, because it's the right thing to do. And because we understand how important it is for everyone, to participate in our government, in our society, why don't we want to be close, I don't want to live on Wi Fi. But I want to celebrate people who have done great things. I want to be able to tell young people that they can be aspirational, that they can vote to the example set by these people who accomplish something right over enormous opposition.   Michael Hingson  50:58 Clearly, these women, and anyone who is committed to this process, to use my term would be unstoppable, which is, which is a great thing. And clearly you are helping to promote that. And I think that is extremely important. And it does go beyond suffrage, women's suffrage, it goes to anyone who has been disenfranchised by whatever the system might be. And we do have to fight the fights, we can't step back, we have to stand for what we believe in. And I think that it is important that we do it in a non violent way. I suspect that if he had lived back in the time of women's suffrage, Gandhi would be a very great supporter, don't you think?   Paula Casey  51:51 Yeah, he would have come around. Yeah, he was kind of sexist.   Michael Hingson  51:55 Well, you know, it's the environment. But non violence was certainly his   Paula Casey  51:59 right. As Susan B. Anthony was entered non violence long before Gandhi and dark cane and she never gets recognized for it. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  52:09 Yeah, it did not start in the 1900s. But it is something that we all ought to take to heart. Now. Let's let's be clear, non violence, as opposed to civil disobedience.   Paula Casey  52:25 Right, right. Yeah. I mean, Susan Bay was all for civil disobedience. And you know, like when she tried to vote, and Elizabeth every Merriweather from Memphis was so inspired by Susan B. Anthony's example, that she went to go vote in Memphis in 1873. And she said they gave her a ballot, probably because she was considered an aristocracy. But she said she wasn't sure if her vote was counted. Yeah. And so that's the whole thing about, you know, who can vote who's citizen who has access to the ballot. And another thing that we have to think about is who's going to count the votes? We're never used to have to worry about that so much.   Michael Hingson  53:07 And it's unfortunate that we have to worry about it today. I think for the longest time, we assumed that the system worked. And mostly I think it did. And it does. But now, there is so much fear and so much distrust because of what some are doing that we have to be concerned about. Who's counting the votes? I watched a news report last night about how ballots are handled in San Bernardino County. And the process is absolutely amazing. When the ballots come in, the first thing that's checked is is the signature and the comparison is made as to whether it's a legal signature that's done by a group of people. And then the ballot is opened. And the ballot is just checked for anything damaged or anything that looks irregular. And then it goes to a different group of people now a third group that counts the ballots, and one of the points that they made, and I actually hadn't thought of it, although I should have. But until they mentioned it is and none of the machines and none of the technologies and none of the process involved in counting the ballots in San Bernardino County and I suspect in a lot most places, nothing is connected to the internet. Right? Oh, nothing can go off and destroy or warp the ballot, the process. That's good to know. Yep, I think it should be that way. I've seen some companies who are concerned enough about the internet and what people can do that their accounting systems are never attached to the internet and it makes perfect sense given everything that's going on today. So other computers can be compromised. But the accounting and monetary parts of the companies are not connected to the internet at all. They're not on the network, right? Even the local network.   Paula Casey  55:14 So what can I mention the three man who were so essential in Tennessee? Sure. This is such a great story. And I have to tell you, my friend, Bill Haltom, of Netflix is a great author and retired attorney. He did this book, because I asked him to on representative Joseph Hanover rock, Kent mother vote. Joseph Hanover, was an immigrant from Poland. His family was Orthodox Jewish, and they fled, because the Tsar took their property. And so many Jewish immigrants were coming into this country, because they had to flee oppression. And he came to this country along with his mother and two brothers, his father came first and ended up in Memphis, and saved the money for them to flee Poland. Now, let me tell you, my key talk about unstoppable mindset. Those people who were searching for freedom, and they had crossed a frozen lake and come across in the bowels of a steamship. And Joe was five years old, and he went upstairs and start bands and people were throwing money at it. When they got to this country, they came through Ellis Island, and band came through via St. Louis down to Memphis, some in Memphis. And he was so taken with this country and the country's founding documents, because his parents kept telling their boys they had three and then they had two more. And they told them, you're living in the greatest country. You have rights in this country that we did not have public. You've got study the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. And of course, the Declaration of Sentiments in 1848, at Seneca Falls was patterned after the declaration of independence. So Mr. Joe decides that he's going to run for the legislature, and he went to law school and studied by all Lampe in his family's home in being Hampton, which is a part of Memphis back then it was north of Memphis. I am so excited because the national votes for women trail, I've been the Tennessee coordinator, and I really pushed to get one of the poverty foundation markers for Mr. Joe. We got it last week, it has been put up on the side of the Hanover family home. And I encourage people who are listening or watching this podcast to look up the national votes for women trail and see all of the people across the 48 states because remember, Alaska and Hawaii weren't states back. We have got Mr. Joe hit with his marker. Then we've also got the sculpture that Allah required date of Harry burn. Now Mr. Joe knew the morning of August 18th 1920, that he was two boats short of ratification in the House, the Senate in Tennessee had passed it 25 Four, but the house was very close to being deadlocked. And because of the opposition and the money, here's what you've got to remember. People who are opposed to right are always going to have more money. That's just a given. So you have to be smarter, and work harder and be more innovative. Mr. Joe did everything he could to keep those pro surfers votes together and it came down to two votes. And he didn't know where they're going to come from. That this is anecdote that Bill Haltom and I've done some research. We think this is true. There was a state representative from West Tennessee north of Jackson and Gibson county named banks Turner. He was a farmer, a Vanderbilt educated lawyer and he had been antiseptic. Now banks Turner ended up sitting and Governor Roberts office on the morning of August the 18th. That vote was gonna take place in the house. And Governor Roberts, who had actually he came around but he supported it. So he's talking to governor of Ohio governor Cox Governor Cox was besieging Governor Roberts of Tennessee to please get Tennessee to pass because remember, both political parties thought that women would vote for them in the 1920 presidential election. The best flip the push was to make it possible for American women to vote in the presidential election. Now Tennessee had as did other states, something called limited suffrage or municipal suffrage where women can only vote in school board or presidential electors, but not universal suffrage, which meant they could vote now elections. So Tennessee women worked and I think would have had a chance to vote. But the political parties wanted Tennessee to ratify so that women and all the 48 states would have the opportunity to vote in the 1920 presidential election. So banks Charter, the Vanderbilt educated lawyer and farmer from Gibson County, Tennessee who had been an Attock is sitting there listening to Governor Roberts and the conversation. And Governor Roberts pointed at banks Turner and said something to the effect of I'm sitting here looking at the man who can make this happen. So banks charter didn't tell anybody that he had met with Senator Roberts and he goes to the floor of the house. And there were attempts made to table the notion which meant to kill it, because they didn't want to have to go on record, and a special session of 1920 if they could delay it until the regular session in January of 1921, and then effectively kill it for all time. Well, Johanna never knew that he was to vote short. Though Joe Hanover and banks Turner voted to table the voted against tabling the motion Harry Berg voted twice to table the motion. However, banks Turner kept it alive because it deadlocked 4848, which meant the amendment was alive and proceeded to the farm vote for ratification. The Speaker of the House was Seth Walker from Lebanon, Tennessee and he was a very wildlife lawyer had initially been four separate Jiminy ends up being an atta. And he thought that because it had deadlocked on the motion to table 4848 that the same thing was gonna happen with the actual vote of ratification, which would have killed it, that he did not know that Harry Barr, who was a state representative from now to candidacy outside of Chattanooga, and was received a letter from his mother and widow who own property, and she wanted to be able to vote in our elections. So she says in this letter, dear son, her rod vote for suffrage. I had been reading the paper with you see where you stood and haven't been able to say anything. Please help Mrs. Cat put the rat and ratification from his mother. So Harry, what the roll call was taken, voted for it voted ah. And it caught the anti separatists by surprise. But the processor just realized that it was going to pass 49 to 47. And so SEC Walker, being a parliamentary maneuver specialist, changed his vote from May to ah, so that he would be able to prevail anxiety to bring it up for reconsideration. But what that did was it gave it a constitutional majority 50 to 46. So that it would pass constitutional muster, and they had attempts to be railing and all kinds of shenanigans. But Tennessee, became the last state to ratify the perfect 36 on August 18 1920. And we celebrate that accomplishment and everything with those men did. And I have been very pleased that we got a Tennessee Historical Commission marker in Gibson County for thanks, Turner. We've got the Harry burn statue, and there's a marker in his home place and Nauta and then I have got the Palmer foundation mark of Joe Hanover. And Adam afar, Scott did his best on the Memphis suffrage monument. So what these men did, because they believed in democracy and rule of law, it will be there for future generations to know   Michael Hingson  1:04:25 what a great story and there's no better way to end our episode today then with that and what it really means if people want to learn more about all of this and maybe contact you and learn about your book and so on. How can they do that?   1:04:45 thperfect36.com theperfect36.com or Paulacasey.com And I would love to hear from folks you know the books are available the audio book, the ebook and the DVD generations American women when the This is all about celebrating democracy and the rule of law and the right to vote. And thank you so much.   1:05:08 Well, Paula, thank you and I really appreciate you coming on. I love history I have not read enough David McCullough books and have to work on that some but and we will, but I have Red Team of Rivals. So that's not David McCollum. But still, history is an important thing for us. And we learned so much that whatever we think is new really isn't same concepts coming up in a different way. Right. But thank you all for listening. I'd love to hear from you. Please. Wherever you are, just shoot me an email. Let me know what you thought of today's podcast. Please give us a five star review. This is an informative episode and one that I think people really need to hear. So I hope you will pass on about this. Give us a five star rating. Email me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe.com or visit our podcast page. www dot Michael hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. And definitely let us know your thoughts. And once more Paula Casey, we really appreciate you coming on and educating us and telling us all about this subject which is I think so important and teaches us so many lessons we need to take to heart.   Paula Casey  1:06:25 Thank you.   1:06:29 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

With The Beans on vacation, we thought it would be a good opportunity to share some podcasts that you might not be familiar with. We hope you enjoy Unsung History as much as we do! If you like what you hear, please subscribe here: https://link.chtbl.com/unsung-history By 1833, Lydia Maria Child was a popular author, having published both fiction and nonfiction, including the wildly successful advice book The Frugal Housewife: Dedicated to those who are not ashamed of Economy. And she had been editing a beloved monthly periodical for children called Juvenile Miscellany for seven years. But her popularity crumbled precipitously when she published An Appeal in Favor of that Class of Americans Called Africans, arguing for the immediate emancipation of enslaved people. Child never stopped writing or fighting for the causes she believed in, but she never again reached the literary heights to which she'd seemed poised to ascend. Joining me to help us learn more about Lydia Maria Child is Dr. Lydia Moland, Professor of Philosophy at Colby College and author of Lydia Maria Child: A Radical American Life. Our theme song is Frogs Legs Rag, composed by James Scott and performed by Kevin MacLeod, licensed under Creative Commons. The poem mid-episode, read by Teddy, is “The New-England Boy's Song about Thanksgiving Day,” written by Lydia Maria Child and originally published in 1844 in Flowers for Children, Volume 2. The image is of Lydia Maria Child, from “Representative Women,” by L. Schamer, produced by Louis Prang Lithography Company, in 1870; the image is available courtesy of the National Portrait Gallery, Smithsonian Institution and is in the public domain. Additional sources: “Lydia Maria Child,” Poetry Foundation. “Lydia Maria Child,” David Ruggles Center for History and Education. “October 20, 1880: Lydia Maria Child Dies,” Mass Moments. “Lydia Maria Child 1802-1880,” From a talk titled, “Here are some of her accomplishments” by Jane Sciacca, Wayland Historical Society, October 2018. “Lydia Maria Child,” National Abolition Hall of Fame and Museum. “William Lloyd Garrison,” National Park Service. “Lydia Maria Child Taught Americans to Make Do With Less,“ by Lydia Moland, Wall Street Journal, November 10, 2022. “Activists have always been frustrated at allies' insistence on gradual change,” by Lydia Moland, Washington Post, March 28, 2022. “Books by Child, Lydia Maria,” Project Gutenberg “Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl, Written by Herself,” by Harriet A. Jacobs; edited by Lydia Maria Child. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

By 1833, Lydia Maria Child was a popular author, having published both fiction and nonfiction, including the wildly successful advice book The Frugal Housewife: Dedicated to those who are not ashamed of Economy. And she had been editing a beloved monthly periodical for children called Juvenile Miscellany for seven years. But her popularity crumbled precipitously when she published An Appeal in Favor of that Class of Americans Called Africans, arguing for the immediate emancipation of enslaved people. Child never stopped writing or fighting for the causes she believed in, but she never again reached the literary heights to which she'd seemed poised to ascend. Joining me to help us learn more about Lydia Maria Child is Dr. Lydia Moland, Professor of Philosophy at Colby College and author of Lydia Maria Child: A Radical American Life. Our theme song is Frogs Legs Rag, composed by James Scott and performed by Kevin MacLeod, licensed under Creative Commons. The poem mid-episode, read by Teddy, is “The New-England Boy's Song about Thanksgiving Day,” written by Lydia Maria Child and originally published in 1844 in Flowers for Children, Volume 2. The image is of Lydia Maria Child, from “Representative Women,” by L. Schamer, produced by Louis Prang Lithography Company, in 1870; the image is available courtesy of the National Portrait Gallery, Smithsonian Institution and is in the public domain. Additional sources: “Lydia Maria Child,” Poetry Foundation. “Lydia Maria Child,” David Ruggles Center for History and Education. “October 20, 1880: Lydia Maria Child Dies,” Mass Moments. “Lydia Maria Child 1802-1880,” From a talk titled, “Here are some of her accomplishments” by Jane Sciacca, Wayland Historical Society, October 2018. “Lydia Maria Child,” National Abolition Hall of Fame and Museum. “William Lloyd Garrison,” National Park Service. “Lydia Maria Child Taught Americans to Make Do With Less,“ by Lydia Moland, Wall Street Journal, November 10, 2022. “Activists have always been frustrated at allies' insistence on gradual change,” by Lydia Moland, Washington Post, March 28, 2022. “Books by Child, Lydia Maria,” Project Gutenberg “Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl, Written by Herself,” by Harriet A. Jacobs; edited by Lydia Maria Child. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do we do when we can't make predictable or ordered decisions? What do we do when things are unordered? How do we approach those decisions in ways we haven't in the past? These questions are just some of what you get to hear about on this episode with our guest, Sherry Johnson.   Sherry, like so many others we have had the opportunity to interview, grew up not knowing she was a person with autism. She often wondered why she felt she was an outsider in the world. It wasn't until her 40s that she was finally diagnosed. By then, she had gone to college and became a teacher of English and the theater.   Now, she is a coach, a course creator and the founder of the company Cultivating Strategy. Our discussion ranges far beyond autism and neurodivergence. We even get into a story from Sherry about her facilitating a church discussion about gun control. Wait until you hear what happens. (Hint: no, the gun control issue is not solved, but diametrically opposed people do learn to listen to and talk with opponents.)     About the Guest: With a background in arts education, community organizing, and volunteer coordination, Sherry likes inspiring folks to experiment with new ways of being together. Sherry enjoys bridging divides between people. She likes helping leaders and experts make complicated information more accessible, while elevating homegrown leadership and expertise.  Sherry leverages her autistic mind to help people see their own assumptions and biases, so that everyone is freer to be seen and heard more faithfully. Sherry blends Technology of Participation, emergent strategy, Asset-Based Community Development, and current brain research—particularly the neuroscience of emotion and mindfulness—into her approach. Her North Star is interrupting linear and conventional thinking, which so often hampers care and innovation in human systems. Most of her clients are in the civic and nonprofit sectors. Sherry's feet touch the ground in St. Paul, Minnesota, her heart's home. She loves her family, most cats, playful dogs, corvids, and a good windstorm.   How to connect with Sherry: My website My Facebook Page My LinkedIn Profile My December training on Adaptive Leadership     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, a pleasant afternoon to you wherever you happen to be. I am Michael Hingson, your host and you are listening to unstoppable mindset. Now we get to interview lots of different people who do lots of different things, which really makes it fun, we get to inspire. And I frankly will tell you I love being inspired. We get to talk with Sherry Johnson today who has a company called cultivate strategy, and we'll get to that but a little known fact, except for a close circle around sherry. She had a birthday yesterday. So Sherry, welcome to unstoppable mindset and happy birthday.   Sherry Johnson  01:57 Thank you so much.   Michael Hingson  02:00 We won't we won't give away your age. That's entirely up to you. But I want to tell you, we're really glad you're here. I enjoyed chatting with you and preparing for this. So split start by telling you or asking you to tell us a little bit about your roots, you know where you came from growing up what it was like, and all that kind of stuff.   Sherry Johnson  02:22 Yeah, thanks. I'm happy to be here. And so lucky to get to do this. And so I came from southern Wisconsin and a rust belt town called Janesville, Wisconsin. And my tone really was embodied a lot of what shapes me, deep divisions, we produce Janesville, both Russ Feingold and Paul Ryan to two completely opposite politician, if you don't say, Yes, that's right. And even my own household was a fractal image of that my mother was a union steward and a factory. My dad retired for agent first sergeant first class in the army. And they used to joke how they canceled out one another's boats all the time. So really grew up in a lot of tension. And also a lot of people have lost their jobs during the mid 80s, as so many did, and that rust belt town got a lot rest year, and that kind of sense of loss and some of the family traumas that compounded around that and my family's background, shaped a lot of how I approach my work and who I become and how I relate to those routes all the time. And I think to you know, this will come up later, but I think to Mike family was also impacted, not just from, you know, caste and job loss, but also generational trauma that may have actually come from being neuro divergent in a world in which that is not really created for us to be successful. Right.   Michael Hingson  04:01 So, yeah. Where did the neuro divergence come in?   Sherry Johnson  04:06 Well, you know, it's genetic. A lot of that I actually came had a midlife autism diagnosis. And when I looked back and kind of, you know, the crash that I had, at that time, I look back at a lot of the family trauma that I experienced and, and sort of see started seeing these signs of OCD, ADHD, autism in my family of origin, and how a lot of that sort of set up some, some difficulties and how we were able to approach live view live, get along with others, collaborate or not, and it really isolated us in our town.   Michael Hingson  04:50 So do you think or do you know, were there other people in your family who had neurodivergent kinds of things or are you the one on choosing one   Sherry Johnson  05:02 I dealt my dad was very likely OCD, autistic, possibly ADHD as well. I, my mother was most definitely autistic and really struggled with some depressive issues and that life because of that, I believe my grandfather was I think there were lots of folks on my father's side as well. And so just kind of growing up along around that, and not really being able to trace back some roots about why is my family so different? What is it about us not being able to fit in and really find our places in society? Why are we so sort of isolated? Why do we continue to isolate ourselves? And I feel like I have a lot more answers about that example.   Michael Hingson  05:49 So how old were you when you were diagnosed?   Sherry Johnson  05:52 I was, um, sexually. So I live here in St. Paul, Minnesota now. But for a while my spouse's job moved, and we had to move out to Seattle for a handful years. And having been sort of taken out of my context, and my community that I had built up. In my mid 30s, I had a breakdown. There were days where I was laying on the couch with a, you know, blanket over my head, and I literally could not get up. And I know that my story is not unique. You know, I had to start over that I didn't know how, and it felt very much like a lot of you sort of go through this year or so of reinterpreting your entire life, nothing, why? Why you made certain decisions or not, and what it felt like it again, your family of origin, and all of that. And I took all of that and sort of had to rebuild who I was and how I saw myself as a disabled person in a world that was not necessarily designed for me to be successful. Right.   Michael Hingson  07:04 So when did you get diagnosed?   Sherry Johnson  07:07 That was 3030. I've missed a 38.   Michael Hingson  07:11 Sir. You know, I've talked to a number of people on this podcast, who got diagnosed with autism, or other disabilities, in their 30s ran into into their 40s. I know, several people who were diagnosed with autism and ADH D in their 30s. For her I know one person who we talked with who knew that they didn't see well, but never really got a diagnosis until a little bit later. Wow, how how was it for you when you got a diagnosis and really understood what was going on?   Sherry Johnson  07:55 Um, well, I went again, I went through that year of just kind of reinterpreting my entire life, there was a lot of anger. I remember feeling for a long time that the whole world was hiding something from me, like, there were all these inch implicit rules, that I wasn't in on all these shortcuts to emotions, and it   Michael Hingson  08:16 didn't send you the memo. Right?   Sherry Johnson  08:18 Right. Like and it was entire light bulb feeling like I missed the memo. And by the way, this is part of my executive dysfunction is numbers was actually my early 40s, that I was diagnosed. And, and I remember just feeling that profound sense of grief, of loss time, of not understanding myself of not understanding that there are people like me, that there have been always fuchal, like me, you know, you go through this, you read a lot of books, if you start seeing yourself represented, we talked about representation in mass media all the time. And I'm so excited to be able to see myself and that's what helped me kind of redefine myself from an I'm an outsider, feeling like an outsider all my life to an outlier, someone who has something different to give. And so I started creating a field with the ways that I was approaching training and consulting and facilitation and coaching and allowing my neurology to kind of shape something new.   Michael Hingson  09:24 And really, I'm not even sure I would go so far as to say outlier, because what it allowed you to do was to realize who you were, which allowed you to then move forward and become a real part of and feeling like a real part of society.   Sherry Johnson  09:43 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I always feel like I'm the sauciest one who Pena sees things a little bit differently and kind of is a lot really intense for a lot of people. I'm proud of that difference, and at the same time, it's helped We appreciate even more other's differences, and to try to help people collaborate in ways where we can honor those differences, lift them up, celebrate how those differences are really where innovation comes from there. Those differences are how we move forward in new ways and in healthier ways. Right?   Michael Hingson  10:21 Well, let's go back. So when you were growing up, you went to regular public schools and all that kind of thing, I assume.   Sherry Johnson  10:27 Yeah. Yep. We were, I should say there was these gifted programs that they were experiment, experimenting with back in the 80s. And almost every two a one of us were nerve divergent at sunset. And so we, we had our own different social milieu, some of which was damaging, some of which was healthy. But we were kept together, separated and kept together from about fourth grade. So that eighth grade, and then just sort of thrown thrown out of that program in ninth grade. And so that that even added, I think, to this sense of isolation and difference and outlier ship or outsider ship at the time. Yeah. You're just like, whoa, what just happened? And then suddenly, you're in all these classes where you're breaking the curve, and upsetting upper class people, because you're the, you're the freshman and chemistry getting a plus. Right? And nobody and you just feel you feel ostracized? ostracize, you don't make a lot of friends? Let me tell you.   Michael Hingson  11:36 Yeah, it is tough on when I was in high school, I actually was taken out of our freshman General Science course for the last quarter of the year. Because my general science teacher said, you know, you seem pretty bored. And I said, Yeah, this is all pretty straightforward stuff. And they put me in the senior physics class. Oh, I had this experience, I had that experience, too. As a, as a blind person. I know, I wasn't in most of the social groups, the social cliques and so on. And I was, no one was mean, it just was that I didn't end up associating with, with people a lot directly. I've talked to some of my high school colleagues a whole lot more after graduation, and over the past several years, then, then in high school. But yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah, I believe it. And at some point, you really have to decide, you can only do what you can do, and you don't have control over how people feel.   Sherry Johnson  12:37 Yes. And, and I think, you know, speaking of how people feel, I think one of the things that's really shaped me, post diagnosis is I got deep, deep, deep into understanding how we construct emotions. I'm a huge fan of this neuro neuroscientist cut aspect of neuroscientists and Risa Feldman Barrett, who talks about the theory of construction, emotion, and the predictive brain model and how that impacts us and impacts our relationships. And thinking about that through an autistic lens. And I've really brought a lot of that Affective Neuroscience work into my work. And it's helped me also kind of reinterpret my past and see why human differences so hard for a lot of us to address in a constructive way. But once you understand it, you can kind of start piecing together some experiments to help us connect better across different.   Michael Hingson  13:36 Well, this whole concept of diversity, which everyone seems to embrace, unfortunately, when you deal with it in terms of their traditional ways today. For many of us, it never seems to affect us. For example, diversity doesn't seem to include disabilities today. Oh, we're a diverse society. We are diverse all the way around. We deal with race and gender and sexual orientation and culture and so on. But you never hear mentions about disabilities. And what's really, what's really unfortunate   Sherry Johnson  14:14 about it.   Michael Hingson  14:17 Yeah, they're, they're trying to get us. What's really unfortunate is that when we when we talk about these differences, and diversity in reality, we are leaving so many people out, which is why I like the term inclusion a lot more than diversity. Because if you're really going to take inclusion literally, you can't say well, we were partially inclusive. No, it doesn't work that way. You either are or you're not. You can't leave people out.   Sherry Johnson  14:50 Absolutely. I had the pleasure of working with the Minnesota Council of disability on disability lately, and they taught me so much about you know, I thought I was doing it pretty good job of making making my documentation accessible? No, that's all their work with them Did I see all these different ways that what I thought was inclusive, wasn't there it you know, it wasn't to their standard, and they really taught me a lot. And so adding that lends to, you know, being neuro divergent as well, and having an idea about lots of different neuro types and how to be inclusive of that. And of course, I've also done other diversity, equity inclusion work around anti racism, and gender inclusion. And I think all of that work, you know, has a lot more commonality than then indifference. I think a lot of what makes something universally accessible, is also what makes something a place fully inclusive of all those things.   Michael Hingson  15:52 Yeah. We, we need to, we need to recognize that there's nothing wrong with being different than everyone else around us. It doesn't make us less or doesn't make us more, which is the unfortunate part about the term disabilities because people just interpret that as well. You're not able? Well. That's why what we really need to do because I haven't come up with a better word. We need to change the definition of disability.   Sherry Johnson  16:24 Read it. Yeah. I Yeah. And whenever I talk about my own, myself being disabled, I tried to talk about disabled in a context disabled because something was not designed for me. And there are barriers to it being designed for me to access it, you know, just the rhythms of everyday life. Honestly, a lot of the organizations I work with right now, for example, we know that there's been this great resignation, and this passive quitting, because we're all sort of overtaxed and traumatized by the last few years. Well, that's how I felt most of my life. So I can kind of bring some of that feeling and some of those adaptations that I've made for myself, and listening to my body and self liberating my values and and being more mindful, I can bring that to groups and help them you know, even folks who've never experienced any kind of, quote, unquote, disability feel like there are steps that they can take to succeed more to be plugged in more, to collaborate better, in healthier ways that is honoring to themselves, their bodies, their communities, one another.   Michael Hingson  17:39 There's an interesting book written by Henry Mayer, entitled all on fire. And it's the story of the abolitionist, William Lloyd Garrison from the 1840s. And one of the things that Mayor talks about in the book is a time when garrison was looking for more people to join the movement. And he suggested to his people that they contact two ladies, their sisters, they grim case sisters, and the sisters were very active suffragettes. And of what what happened was that the his his people said, well, we shouldn't contact them. They're not relevant to what we're doing. They're dealing with something totally different than what we're dealing with. And that would just detract. And Garrison said something, which I think is extremely profound. He said, It's all the same thing. And how true it is. The reality is we're all fighting to become part of the same society. And doesn't matter whether it's suffrage doesn't matter whether it's abolition of slavery, doesn't matter whether it's dealing with any kind of disability or whatever, it really is all the same thing. And we need to recognize that and include everyone to deal with the issue.   Sherry Johnson  19:04 Absolutely. And, and also celebrate and lift up and represent those differences, and nonfiction and fiction media, right. Like I said, seeing myself starting to see myself represented was really important to me. And I know that that's been really important to many other colleagues from from different backgrounds. For sure,   Michael Hingson  19:26 well, so what did you do after high school?   Sherry Johnson  19:29 I became a high school English and theater teacher, because that was the role model that I had from the cast. I was from right. As a first generation college student I the whole concept of going to grad school even though I really wanted to be a medical doctor or something like that. I just couldn't understand the concept. And that you went to college. I did go to college. I was I was very lucky to get a full ride scholarship at UW Madison. And I studied education in theater, taught theater and English to high schoolers for about 10 years, and then transitioned into above, I had my kid, and my teenager, they're now 15 was also autistic. Because, again, we're genetic. And that was really tough as an autistic person who didn't know it yet, you know, having had this autistic person with other high needs, and not really having a lot of space or help around that. And so I made some choices, right, I got into community organizing a taught yoga for a while I got into my body, I started working on my own emotional landscape. And mindfulness, started doing community organizing, which brought me into consensus processes and collaboration. And that's why I became a technology participation certified facilitator, I still train that on a regular basis. And then it just started, it kind of led me from there. Now I do strategic planning for nonprofits, I work with local governments to improve their systems. And it's all just sort of taken off where those last, you know, 1015 years, it's kind of put me in a completely different spot. But then I've always been a bit of a polymath, I think that might come from some add tendencies as well in my brain. But I think that all of that kind of like, what you were just saying, from the quote from the book is, like, all is everything. And if you can have your hands and a lot of different things, you can bring a sense of wildlife and plant ecology, and to changing human systems, right. And it can make that process more meaningful and adaptable. So it's stuff like that, that I live for that kind of synthesis.   Michael Hingson  21:55 You said something several times, and I'm not we're not going to get political or anything. But we I hear a number of people say, Oh, my child is autistic, because they had vaccinations and so on, and they don't even look at the whole genetic thing. What do you think about all that?   Sherry Johnson  22:13 It is 100% genetic? And I think that we're gonna find that we've always had autistic people with us, we've always had add people with us. And, and, and I think, and I know that, you know, all the studies are the vaccines have nothing to do with creating, or enabling or turning on any genes when it comes to autism, you know, vaccines. And I think, for the for us in the community, the Autistic community. It's kind of maddening to, to hear that come up again. Because it was essentially a fake study that even started that whole thing. And now that gentleman makes a lot of money selling that story to different organizations and traveling the world and writing books. And it's really unfortunate how much damage he's done.   Michael Hingson  23:05 Well, so you how long ago did you form creative strategy? Cultivate strategy? Yeah. polyphase strategy? Yeah, um, it's another C word. I call it a base. All right.   Sherry Johnson  23:17 And of course, cultivation comes from ecology. But But I, you know, I started my own business when I before even left for Seattle about 1012 years ago. But it wasn't until I came back from Seattle about 533234 years ago that I that I built, called the Bates strategy out of kind of an amalgamation of all these things that I learned. And, you know, it's my third business and was happy to build it in a state of Minnesota. And I just felt like there was this niche I needed to fill. And I've grown to think of myself more and more as a complexity coach, both for individuals and organizations to help us think about just to sort out the different complexities and when we can't make predictable decisions. When things are unordered. What do we do? How do we approach those decisions in ways that we haven't in the past? And that's changed the way that I approach strategic planning and students the way that I've approached leadership orientation, and things like that.   Michael Hingson  24:30 Will Tell me a little bit more about your approach and what you do if you would, please. Sure. So   Sherry Johnson  24:35 I come from this place where you know, it's kind of taken me a long time to kind of define this because I was always about helping people collaborate across Denver. Well, what is that about? It can be about almost anything, but I think where I'm finding my niche is helping people understand when a linear plan a time based linear plan with goals is not always the right frame, it's not always the right way to go. Increasingly, we know that the less predictable our world is, the less predictable the context of an organization, the more experimental we have to be, the more we have to allow things to emerge between humans and within human networks that can be sustainable. It's through changing a system through relatively simple interactions is what one of my favorite thinkers Adrian Marie brown talks about in this changing complex adaptive systems, and thinking about ourselves more as part of nature than something that's imposing order upon nature. And that's, that's what excites me and gets me out of bed every day. So I have a leadership course coming up, for example, it's based on leadership orientations and figuring out what situations you're most gifted to lead in. And when you should really be stepping back and recognizing the leadership orientation of others who are more able to move in that particular context, which is again, about celebrating difference, and was something that always has always bugged me is about just moving and operating in a tip in a neurotypical world is that oftentimes those things that I've been teased about throughout my life was overthinking, you're overthinking. You're anxious, you're trying too hard. Those things have been a gift to me. That's how my brain works. And it's how I do what I do. And yes, I burn hot, I'm intense. But a lot of that is what allows me to lead in a different way. And more effectively in some contexts. And that's what I'm trying to bring into the organizations I work with to   Michael Hingson  26:54 one of the things that I have found about leadership and being part of a team is the best team leaders are the ones who also know how to use your words, how to step back and let someone else take the lead to do a particular thing.   Sherry Johnson  27:10 Absolutely. Yeah. And who knows? Yeah, go ahead.   Michael Hingson  27:14 Because they don't necessarily themselves have all the gifts or they know, who might be better gifted to do a particular thing?   Sherry Johnson  27:22 Absolutely. And we all know that, you know, information doesn't flow through human systems unless we trust and care about one another. You don't, you know, that's where information hoarding happens in systems where care and trust are missing, or deficient. And we know too, that as our systems as our organizations become more and more complex information is everything. Sharing information is everything. So how do we meet this moment and figure out how to care for ourselves and one another, even as we're working on these harder and harder problems?   Michael Hingson  27:59 Yeah. And it isn't just information, it is absolutely sharing information. We we grow up in a world today where trust is so much under attack, which is what's so unfortunate to me. Because in reality, we trust in so many ways, and we should be more open to trust than we tend to be.   Sherry Johnson  28:22 Yeah, in fact, I had the most one of the most beautiful situations I've been in in the last few years is the day after Donald Trump was elected in 2016. You know, I remembered it was one of the most divisive. It was the Sunday after rather, one of the most divisive times I can think of even even more so than now just this sort of everybody holding their breath. And I was hosting a conversation at my suburban Seattle church on gun control, can you imagine, are you and we had a very heated, we had all kinds of people in that room. There were there were 2530 people in that room. And we had a very heated, very intense high conflict, but but carrying, because we were all part of this same community carrying conversation that I was able to facilitate within some good boundaries. And that was one of the most effective situations I've been in because we realized, I think in that moment, that we needed to find a way to care about each other, we needed to leverage our care to have a conversation together about something that is just so high, high conflict, right. And that can be a lot of hope for even where we are now and how we can move forward with the right good boundaries around conversation and collaboration. And I want more of that.   Michael Hingson  29:56 So what was the main bone of contention or the main conflict since you all came from a church environment. You were you were all there. And as you point out, people really cared what was the main issue that was hard to address or deal with?   Sherry Johnson  30:15 It just there were, you know, again, suburban, mainline, you know, Methodist Church, about half of the folks in the room were very pro Second Amendment, NRA members, and about half of the room were very sort of liberal Moms Demand Action types of folks who were very, very frustrated with the state of gun legislation in the country. And, you know, even even in that context, those tensions exist. And in fact, I think churches, mainline churches, particularly, are one of the last places where you can find that level of difference, even in a caring community. And those differences, by the way, often are under the rug, and we'll talk about when pretend everything is okay. Until we can.   Michael Hingson  31:11 Well, was there any room to discuss things like does the the idea of gun control? Since we're talking about it? Is there any, was there any room to discuss? Does gun control really mean you're gonna lose your guns? I mean, that that's, of course, the the whole argument the NRA makes, and that people say when they talk about the Second Amendment, we ought to have the right just to have our guns. And that's all there is to it. But there is there was there any room to say? Well, wait a minute. Is it really that black and white?   Sherry Johnson  31:47 Absolutely. I think one of the best. One of the best things about being a facilitator, and the longer you do it, is that you start to be able to ask the right question. And you notice that you're working with the group, and they stop talking to you, the facilitator and they start talking to each other. And that doesn't always happen. But when it does, it leads to situations in which that did happen in this group. I remember the look on there were two really passionate people, and it was toward the end of the conversation. And they just stood and faced each other they stood up. And there was people were a little bit afraid, I was feeling pretty good about it. But she just said, Look, I don't want to take your guns, you know, and he said, You want to take my guns, I don't want to take your guns. And it was, and I was just about to interrupt. And then there was a pause. I'm Scott Peck, one of my favorite thinkers talks about this where we're in this sense of chaos. We live in pseudo community most of the time, and then we get this sense of chaos when we realize our differences. And it's only after a period of emptiness that we become a community. And what I watched was this emptiness, this period where no one said anything. And then I think one of them asked the other the question, I don't remember it. I wish I did. But she got a real answer. And then he asked her a question. And she gave him a real answer. This is the trust piece. And they never, they did not agree with one another walking out of that room. And meanwhile, everybody else is sort of watching this happen. But I think we all learn something about emptying ourselves of that need to control the situation and be right. And really just get curious and see what's behind this. This person's thinking.   Michael Hingson  33:34 Yeah, we, we spend so much time hearing the shallow sound bites and so on. And then we just buy that rather than thinking more about it. You know, of course, we could talk about Donald Trump. So many people say I'd vote for him again, because I trust him. And what I always wonder, and I would wonder it about any politician really is, what do you really trust? You hear words, but do you dig down to look at the actions behind the words? Do you look at all the things that they do or not? And unfortunately, we don't tend to allow ourselves and I think we also don't teach our children nearly enough to be curious,   Sherry Johnson  34:30 right? Yes. Yes, Curiosity is so key. And that that negative capability of being able I love this concept of negative capability, have you heard this, the neuroscientific concept where basically, you're allowing about it? Well, sorry, you're allowing yourself to realize that you don't have the answer in the moment. Our society is so obsessed with having the right answer, usually a simple answer, right? And the moment that something's needed And unless you're in a true crisis, potentially really bad to make a decision really? Yeah, it's really good to step back and employ this concept of negative capability. You see how long you can wait in that space of unknowing to have an answer. And you'll find that people with a higher negative capability, make better decision? Because it allows them to consult others be curious, fill that space in their brains of even what they done that unknown unknowns like, what do I not know? Let's find out what I don't even know that I don't know. And that that, that can really bring us way beyond where we're at with our relationships. And I think too, that's one of the strengths of being an autistic person is that I have? I think, a lot of negative capability, because I've spent my entire life sort of going, why did they just do it? What was the assumption behind that? I don't have those simple rules that I think neurotypical culture has. And it's always led me to always take a step back and ask, why did that happen and get curious. And I love sharing that, that negative capability, the father's   Michael Hingson  36:15 interesting concept, I wasn't really familiar with it. But the other part about it is you also said, The only really good time or the necessary time to make a fast decision is when there's a crisis, right. But I would also add to that, that making a fast decision in a crisis also comes down to as much preparation ahead of time. So of course, for me, the example is the World Trade Center, and all the things that I did to prepare for an emergency, not necessarily ever expecting one, but at the same time, needing to know information. I had a discussion just yesterday with someone who asked me the question about, well, was it? Or could it be an advantage in a situation like the World Trade Center, not to see as opposed to being able to see? And what I pointed out was, that you're still basing that question on having eyesight, and comparing more or less eyesight? And that's not really the question to ask or the issue to discuss. The issue really is what do you do to prepare for different situations in your life. So for me, going out and, and exploring, learning what to do in the case of an emergency, was something that I felt really necessary and required for me to do as the leader of an office. It also prepared me for an emergency. And it gave me information that sighted people would not normally get because they just rely on the science to tell them what to do and where to go, which only works if you can see the signs. And if you have time to read the signs. So it's it's really not site versus not site. It's preparation versus not preparing.   Sherry Johnson  38:21 Yes, absolutely. And in the autism community, we talk about the concept of social story that is very similar. A lot of times autistic people aren't said like, Wow, you really know what to do in a crisis. And we can turn off all our feelings and be these heroes and crises. And we may bring that with us and a lot of PTSD, we now are much more kin kin we are much more susceptible to PST, PTSD. But with our neuro types, but we're really good in a crisis. I think it's exactly what you were just talking about when the world I don't know about you, Michael, but I think when the world is sort of designed for not you, yeah. You, you have to take that extra step to get curious about your own planning, your own approach to things that the rest of the world takes for granted. And I think that that's a richness that those of us who bring that bring these various lenses can bring into the greater world like, Hey, have you ever thought about it this way? And they were really, you know, I'm really glad that that served you well and that situation?   Michael Hingson  39:30 Well, the other part of that is the world The world may not be designed with me in mind in some way for help preparing and doing what I do. Can I help the world become a little bit more designed for more of us than less of us? And the more of us may not be the majority, but can the world be made to be more designed for more of us than less of   Sherry Johnson  40:01 us. Absolutely.   Michael Hingson  40:02 That's great. And I think that that is an important part of it. It isn't just learning. It's then utilizing that information. And in reality, it is my belief that everyone should learn what to do in an emergency. And very frankly, I would say, for most people learn what to do as a blind person, because you rely way too much on your eyesight much too often. And you don't learn nearly as much as you can learn by utilizing some other skills, which isn't to say, don't use your eyes. But don't limit yourself to your eyesight.   Sherry Johnson  40:45 Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And it forces you to just sit just regard your surroundings differently, I would imagine to this reminds me to of another of my favorite thinkers, Duncan green, has this wonderful book, how change happen. And he talks about that preparation piece. And he said, you know, working for an NGO, the idea was that if you really wanted to change systems, you would figure out your entire plan for changing something. And you would present the entire plan when the crisis happens. The moment the crisis happens, if you're the first one to plop down the plan for moving out of that crisis, you've just changed the system forever. I love that concept.   Michael Hingson  41:33 And it makes perfect sense. The reality is that we should be doing more of that we shouldn't just be moving around as robots which we do way too often.   Sherry Johnson  41:43 Absolutely. Yeah. mechanization and expertise. Have no person that points for sure. So   Michael Hingson  41:50 I, you know, I have a wife, who we've now been married almost 40 years, it will be 40 years next month. And I've had to learn what eyesight is all about. And I've learned to explore that and learn what she sees how she sees how other people see. And that helps me be more part of that world. But at the same time, then I can use that to say, okay, but here are the limitations of that. Now, take that another step. And really look at what if you don't just use your eyes? And what are the advantages of expanding your horizons as it were?   Sherry Johnson  42:36 Yeah. Yeah, I like that.   Michael Hingson  42:39 So it's a challenge. So you started your company? And what do you do? What What exactly does the company do today?   Sherry Johnson  42:50 Well, we like I said, we moved from sort of doing strategic planning into more organizational change, work, leadership work. And I spell into doing this work around looking at large systems, to now taking that into the city of St. Paul, we did a constituent services study, and we looked at equity implications around who is who can access constituent service and who can't? And what is the quality of that service? And what's the experience? What's the user journey, like? And how can you improve it? And how can you improve the system, looking at all those different more and less predictable ways of working, and looking at all those different ways that people can lead from anywhere in the system and the types of things that they can do. And then I'm hoping to get some new work, knocked out of wood, where I get to do more of that, but also employ narrative ethnography. I'm very excited about this. Do you remember Cambridge Analytica in 2016? Yeah, basically, worked through Facebook to try to find the narratives that were shaping the culture and shift them so that they would get what they wanted out of the election, I kind of want to be the good guy and use that technology for good it is be able to trace the narratives that a culture is telling itself and look for narratives that are positive that would help emerging narratives that will help lead that organization in the right direction and in the direction of its values, and try to move a system by studying those things. So that's the next horizon for me. And it's a project I've been hoping and planning for for the last five years. So I'm hoping that I'm really the one that's putting my book down full of steps and that I'm the first one. I'm not the first by far but I'm excited to do this new work at a larger scale.   Michael Hingson  44:46 You'll be the first to do it the way you do it. I   Sherry Johnson  44:48 spa and slow state.   Michael Hingson  44:52 Tell us more about this concept of narratives.   Sherry Johnson  44:55 Yeah, um, so narratives are the stories we tell ourselves of that shape our behavior, they shape our behavior, they shape our emotions, they shape our relationships, our culture on a grander scale, right. And a culture can believe a set of narratives individuals do. And these can be good or bad working with human narratives, the stories we tell ourselves can be good or bad. Like I said, Cambridge analytic, a bad example of something where you can harness what people believe the predictions that their brains have made about the world way the world works, and make them more afraid, make them do things that are more reactive. But you can also find those hopeful narratives and a culture those narratives that will lead you toward more connection more care, and amp those up, repeat those tell those stories, and lead a culture in a different way. And this works for individuals too. There's a lot of different facilitative frameworks where you can work with an individual or a small group to help them kind of shift their image of themselves and move them in a new direction. So it's that level of change work that is really harnessed in this concept of narratives, because our brains literally predict every moment. And if you can help people predict differently, you can help people change.   Michael Hingson  46:19 How do you incorporate mindfulness into the things that you do? And what is mindfulness? How would you define it? That's a broad subject, isn't it? Yeah. No,   Sherry Johnson  46:29 I mean, that that's about awareness and curiosity, right? That's about, um, you know, being as much as you can be in your body, knowing what's happening within your body, knowing what that says, for you in, in your context about how you're feeling about things. What is your what is good for you? What is bad for you? What feels good or bad? I think a lot of us are so caught up in this sort of perfectionist gogogo culture of, you know, and even in my family of origin, how will you work your way till your next paycheck? You're working more out of competition, fear. Sometimes perfectionism. I know, that was me before my autism diagnosis, I still struggle with it. But what mindfulness does that helps you just kind of check in with yourself and be able to read what is what do I actually need in this moment? What am I actually desiring in this moment? And it's only then when you can help folks feel bad about their own selves that you can help a group be more mindful of one another culture, be more mindful of it. So   Michael Hingson  47:44 how do you teach people to do that?   Sherry Johnson  47:46 playfully. I used to be a theater teachers. So there's a lot of improv involved, sometimes in a more playful sense. With more serious groups, it's just about inviting people to close their eyes and check in with our bodies before virtual I'll say, you know, feel free to turn off your camera, we're just gonna take a few breaths, taking pauses when a group would normally speed ahead, you remember what I said about emptiness? Right? Yeah, we need to be able to take those moments of silence emptiness, to check in with ourselves to see where we're really at. And that, you know, brainstorming works much better when you can take some time of pause, take a break, go on a walk, come back. That's that net negative capability thing again, pausing before deciding, pausing before gathering, pausing to consider, those are all things that I would consider to be mindfulness. And you can do their exercises to do that. Certainly, I taught yoga for a while. And I could do that with certain groups. For the most part, it's much simpler than that. It's about just pausing.   Michael Hingson  48:56 It's also about giving yourself permission, and hopefully encouraging yourself and changing your habits and mindset to doing it. So often, we we just hear excuses. I don't have time to do that. Yeah,   Sherry Johnson  49:12 yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be meditation. Meditation doesn't actually work for everyone. And it works for me, I love it. But I've know a lot of folks who really struggle with it, particularly in the ADB community, but I think it's just about taking time. And for some people that might be taking a walk, for some people, it might be spinning something in their hand. For some people, it's sitting and breathing and feeling the weight of gravity, right. But whatever it is, I try to help people find that. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  49:46 So when you say meditation, what do you mean by that?   Sherry Johnson  49:49 Um, I, you know, that's a tool. That's a highly cultural concept, right? It's different across cultures. For me, I I think of the sort of the Desert Fathers in Christianity and just sort of being silent and sitting in the presence of God, you know, others would say, it's about being silent and just sitting in the presence of nature, or whatever it is, or checking in with our chakras, or whatever it is. Different cultures have different definitions for what it means that it's about taking time. And, you know, we know that some some folks believe that meditation is only just sort of freeing your mind and not thinking about anything. But I think what I've noticed is a pattern, at least in my own small way, is that so much of it is about self compassion. It's like, No one starts out being able to meditate perfectly. But a lot of us can benefit from it, if we have self compassion, and just, you know, keep trying.   Michael Hingson  50:58 And, of course, the whole idea of meditation sure, is being silent, and possibly emptying your mind. But the whole idea behind mindfulness, in a sense, is meditation, it's taking time to not just go forward and confront the day. And it doesn't really matter how you do it. But you do need to take time mentally for yourself, or to slow down. It's something I think that's as much a concept of meditation as is anything else. Absolutely. There's always transcendental meditation where you say a mantra. And that can be very helpful to people who do it. And it may help more people, then think that they could do it. But still, it's all about taking time to slow down and disconnecting from just what goes on in the world.   Sherry Johnson  51:52 Yeah, yeah. But really just noticing more, right? Taking it more with more of your senses, what is actually happening? Yeah, because that predictive brain of ours, we actually don't see, we don't hear, we don't taste we don't smell we don't touch most things. In the moment. We've already predicted those things. If we only really sense what we predicted, we would sense, we actually have to slow ourselves down to truly sense of what's happening around.   Michael Hingson  52:25 So what's next for you?   Sherry Johnson  52:29 Well, I'm like I had this project that hopefully, I'll get to do some narrative ethnography and what we call sensemaking. I've got a course coming up on adaptive leadership on December 3, sign up for that at my website, cultivate strategy that calm slash events, be teaching today, my Two Day technology participation facilitation course, if you want to learn about how to facilitate and collaborate better, I teach that about once a quarter either in Seattle are online, hopefully will start to teach teach that in Minnesota too. And, you know, someday, you would ask me about this earlier, Michael, before the show. I am hoping to complete my musical about growing up as an autistic kid and trying to fit in. So working on that, too.   Michael Hingson  53:21 There you go. Are you going to write the lyrics? Are you going to write the songs? Or are you going to write the words around them? And let let somebody else come in and do it?   Sherry Johnson  53:30 You know, it's going to be I think it's going to be a jukebox musical. So it'll be just hits from the 80s and 90s. Ah, you know, moving moving through my own experiences middle in early high school with the dialog that I'm right. Yeah. Have you   Michael Hingson  53:49 thought about taking a lot of the content of your courses, and putting them into a book? And using that as another mechanism to teach?   Sherry Johnson  54:00 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of existing books, particularly on the technology of participation. I do write blogs pretty regularly. And I've started to do some video logs as well, on tic tac, and Facebook, but someday, I might start to gather some of that stuff together and make a compendium or something that makes sense, but I'm a little too random, maybe to make that full nonfiction book for resale. I'm always fine. It's nothing new to talk about and work on instead.   Michael Hingson  54:35 And, and that's valuable. And as you said, so your courses will be online as well. And they are online.   Sherry Johnson  54:42 Yeah, yeah. The deciding how to decide is online. And there's both an in person and online version of that top facilitation methods which is actually through top trading dotnet you can sign up for courses in that all over even the world   Michael Hingson  54:59 top training dotnet A   Sherry Johnson  55:00 trained dotnet as the US arm of the Institute for Cultural Affairs, is the purveyor of that that particular band of training. Cool? Yeah.   Michael Hingson  55:14 Well, so you've sort of said it, but if people want to reach out to you and maybe learn more about you talk with you, and do you do individual coaching?   Sherry Johnson  55:23 I do. Yeah. So yeah. So   Michael Hingson  55:26 how do they reach out to you and learn, but all of that   Sherry Johnson  55:29 they there is a website, there's a form on my website, cultivatestrategy.com. And you can also just email me at Sherry at cultivatestrategy.com S H E R R Y. I'm happy to respond.   Michael Hingson  55:41 And strategy singular, just to make sure everybody understands. Yes. Well, Sherry, this has been fun. I've enjoyed it. I really appreciate you coming on. And my dog has stayed awake over here, so you must be happy with it. There you go. That's awesome. Alamo pays attention to everything I do. I can't get away with anything. We do have the door closed. So the cat doesn't get to come in. And I understand why cats.   Sherry Johnson  56:10 I adore cats. I have two of them, including the best get in the world and then kissick,   Michael Hingson  56:16 we have a cat we rescued seven and a half years ago. We thought we were just going to find her a home. And I learned that the cat's name was stitch. And my wife is a quilter Do you think that cat was going to go anywhere?   Sherry Johnson  56:32 Oh, it adopted you.   Michael Hingson  56:37 Oh, it took over us? Yeah. He's a great and and she and Alamo get along very well. So we're happy with that. That's great. Well, thanks again for being here. And I want to thank you for listening. And wherever you are. Please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. That's another thing share. You could do a podcast.   Sherry Johnson  56:57 Oh goodness, I've done I've done it. I've done something like it. We'll see someday.   Michael Hingson  57:05 But wherever you are, please give us a five star rating. I'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to me at Michaelhi at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. And Sherry will have to talk about your website and see how accessible it is.   Sherry Johnson  57:21 Oh, I'm working on it. It's not it's not there yet.   Michael Hingson  57:26 Checkout accessiBe it can help and it's not expensive. It's a way to really help. And I'll be glad to help you with that. But we hope that wherever you are, you'll give us a rating and you'll reach out I'd love to hear your thoughts. And we'll be back of course again very soon with another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion, diversity. And my favorite part the unexpected meet and again, Sherry, thank you for being a part of this.   Sherry Johnson  57:51 Thank you for having me, Michael, this was fun.   Michael Hingson  57:58 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

A free press works for human values. And it can never afford to quit. William Lloyd Garrison was one of our free press founding fathers. He showed us the power of speaking with integrity for the good of our whole American family.Universal voting rights are a bedrock of freedom. Until we have them voter suppression should be on every front page.

Shilpa Alimchandani immigrated from India to the United States when only a few months old. As with many immigrants we have interviewed here on Unstoppable Mindset, Shilpa grew up experiencing two worlds. As she describes it, she grew up in a South Asian home experiencing that culture, and later she experienced the wider world around her as she went to school and went out on her own. Her perspectives on her life and what she has learned are fascinating to hear about.   As you will experience, in addition to living, if you will, between two cultures, the color of her skin also caused her to experience challenges. Her “brown skin” did not fit within the normal world of dark-skinned people and her skin was certainly not white. As she tells us, some of the treatment she experienced showed her just how unfair people can be. However, as you will hear, she rose above much of that and has thrived in the world.   Shilpa will tell you about her life journey that lead her to form her company, MUK-tee which means “liberation” in Sanskrit. You will hear about her life as a leadership coach and as a DEI consultant helping many to move toward true transformational change.   About the Guest:   Shilpa Alimchandani is the Founder and Principal of Mookti Consulting. Mookti Consulting partners with clients to break free from oppressive systems and facilitate transformational change. In Sanskrit, mookti मुक्ति (MUK-tee) means liberation. Shilpa has more than 20 years of experience in diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI), leadership development, and intercultural learning. She is a DEI consultant, leadership coach, and facilitator who works with clients to develop holistic solutions that lead to transformational change. In her independent consulting practice, Shilpa has conducted DEI assessments, co-created DEI strategies with clients, facilitated high-impact workshops, and advised clients on issues of racial equity and justice. In her role as the Director of Learning & Innovation for Cook Ross, she built the learning and development function from the ground up and led the organization's curriculum and product development initiatives. With her deep knowledge of various learning modalities, intercultural leadership development, and human-centered design, Shilpa is able to craft interventions that are targeted, impactful, and appropriate for diverse, global audiences. Before her work at Cook Ross, Shilpa designed and implemented global leadership programs for the State Department, led the development of a global learning strategy for the Peace Corps, and taught in the School of International Service at American University. She has facilitated trainings in nearly 20 countries around the world, and has received numerous awards, including twice receiving the Peace Corps' Distinguished Service Award. She is the author of the book Communicating Development Across Cultures: Monologues & Dialogues in Development Project Implementation (Lambert Academic Publishing, 2010), and has been an invited speaker at numerous conferences, including The Forum on Workplace Inclusion and the Society for Intercultural Education, Training, and Research (SIETAR). She has also been a guest lecturer at numerous academic institutions, including Georgetown University and the United States Institute of Peace.   Social Media Links: Website: mookticonsulting.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shilpaalimchandani/     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Hi there you are listening to unstoppable mindset glad you're with us wherever you happen to be. Today we get to interview or chat with Shilpa Alimchandani and I got it right didn't I Shilpa   Michael Hingson  01:37 and Shilpa has formed her own company. She's worked with other companies. She's very much involved in the whole concept of diversity, equity and inclusion and we'll talk about that and and chat about that a little bit. But first Shilpa Welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Shilpa Alimchandani  01:56 Thank you, Michael. I'm really happy to be here.   Michael Hingson  01:58 Shilpa lives in Silver Spring, Maryland. I've been there before it gets colder in the winter a little bit colder than it does here in Victorville in Southern California. But we're up on what's called the high desert. So we get down close to zero. A lot of winters. And so we know the cold weather. We don't get the snow though. But we cope. Well. Thank you for joining us. Why don't you start if you would by telling us just a little bit about you growing up or anything like that things that you think we ought to know about you?   Shilpa Alimchandani  02:32 Okay, well, Thanks, Michael. Yeah, I live in Silver Spring, Maryland now. But this is not where I grew up. I grew up in the Midwest, in the suburbs of St. Louis, Missouri. I was actually born in India, but just a few months old, when I came here, to the US, so grew up in, you know, pretty suburban neighborhood in South Asian families, so kind of navigated between two worlds my world at home, and you know, which was very much a South Asian eating Indian food and speaking Hindi. And, you know, spending time with my family and our small community, in St. Louis, and then going to school and being part of a broader world that was really different than mine at home. And I'm the firstborn in my family. So as a first born of immigrant parents, you just kind of discovering everything for myself for the first time and not having much of a guidebook to help me along, but just sort of figuring it out as I went. And it was a mostly white neighborhood that I grew up in St. Louis, which was very segregated at the time, black and white. Not a lot of people who are anything in between, though, so kind of made my way in school. And I actually went to the University of Missouri Columbia for college. And it wasn't until I finished college that I moved out to the East Coast. And I've stayed here in the DC metro area since working in lots of different capacities in in nonprofit and higher education and government and the private sector, and now as an independent consultant for the fast past few years.   Michael Hingson  04:22 So where do you fall in the black and white scale?   Shilpa Alimchandani  04:25 I'm neither right so as someone as South Asian did not kind of fit into the dominant white majority culture that I was a part of growing up and did not fit into black American culture either because that's not my heritage. So it was a really interesting space to, to navigate to learn in, in a in a culture where race and skin color plays a big role in your identity development and the opposite. unities that you have, you know, it was something that I had to just sort of figure out where do I fit? You know, and what's what's my role in what appears to be kind of an unfair system that we're a part of. And then as I discovered how unfair things were, might the question became, well, how do I change that? What's my role? Being me and my brown skin? You know, to? to question the systems that are unfair? And to change things to be more equitable for everybody?   Michael Hingson  05:32 Do you think it's unfair all over the world? Do you think it's more or less unfair here? Or what?   Shilpa Alimchandani  05:39 Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, every place is unique. And so I don't think like, you know, necessarily, what we experienced in the United States is the same as it is, and other countries in this hemisphere or anywhere else in the world. And I think there are some global themes around power and identity that really can cut across cultures and countries, you know, human beings are used to kind of creating hierarchies, you know, and, you know, some people having more authority, more power than others, sometimes that's based on things like skin color, sometimes, you know, that's based on gender, sometimes that's based on caste, or that's based on tribe or some other ethnic identity, there are lots of different identities that are used to kind of implement that hierarchical system. But there are some things that are in common across all of them, right about how people in power retain their power, how people without power, learn to kind of accept their circumstances. And, you know, and kind of not necessarily pushback, because when they do, there are consequences to that. And so that it's like a reinforcing system that we get used to, and we sort of take for granted. Well, that's just like, how the how the world is, that's how life is. And it takes a lot of courage to question that and say, Well, no, well, it doesn't have to be that way. And we can make things more fair for everybody.   Michael Hingson  07:20 Do you think though, that here, we we see more of that than elsewhere in the world, or you think it just seems that way, because we're here,   Shilpa Alimchandani  07:30 and probably seems that way, because we're here, I mean, you, you know, you, you know, you're more in touch with what's happening, usually in your own environment. And I think, for the United States, with as much promise as it has, as a country with, you know, ideals around equality and fairness and justice, there's just a really difficult history that we haven't fully grappled with, that continues to impact people every day. And so it is a history of, you know, genocide of native peoples, it's a history of enslavement of African peoples. It's a history of patriarchy, where, you know, women haven't had the same access and rights, it's a history of ableism. You know, a topic, of course, that you know, very well in this podcast deals with in a really nuanced way, where people who don't fit into the norms of, you know, able bodied neurotypical folks, you know, are marginalized. And, and, you know, LGBTQ plus, folks are also marginalized. And that's not unique to the United States. But it is part of something that's part of our culture, that we need to acknowledge in order to change, kind of pretending like it's all in the past, and we don't really need to worry about that anymore, doesn't help us to make things better moving forward.   Michael Hingson  09:01 If there's a difference in the United States, it is that our country was founded on and we keep touting the fact that all of us are free, and all of us are equal, but in reality, it hasn't worked that way thus far.   Shilpa Alimchandani  09:20 Right? That's exactly right. And I think that it's often people from marginalized groups, who really believed most passionately, in that promise in those ideals and therefore want to push to make that a reality.   Michael Hingson  09:39 Yeah, and, and understandably so because we're the ones who tend not to have truly experienced it.   Shilpa Alimchandani  09:49 Right, exactly. And so, you know, it's fascinating to me to Michael on this topic of, you know, recognizing the you know, the inequities and the oppression that exists And what we want to do to change it is that you would think that if you understand or experience oppression or marginalization because of one aspect of your identity, that you would then also have empathy across lots of different experiences of marginalization, right. So for example, as a woman, I've experienced marginalization because of my gender. And so you would hope then that I would be empathetic to, you know, LGBTQ folks, or I wouldn't be also empathetic to people with disabilities. And I could translate my experience of marginalization and say, oh, I want to advocate for others who've experienced marginalization. But that is has not necessarily been the case, right? A lot of times, we kind of only focus on our own experience, the one that's familiar to us and have a harder time seeing how there are connections across lots of different identities. And there's power in us actually making those connections instead of, you know, operating in our silos.   Michael Hingson  11:11 Why is that? Why have we why have we not been able to take that leap? When we are part of one group, which clearly is marginalized, as opposed to other groups? Who are also marginalized, but we think essentially, we're really the the only one in town from the standpoint of not translating that.   Shilpa Alimchandani  11:35 Yeah, you know, I think it's, we are as human beings, much more aware of when we're kind of the outsider, and things are harder for us. And we've experienced adversity that we need to overcome. But when we're in that insider role, right, in the group that has more power, the dominant group, it's really easy to not pay attention to that to kind of forget it, to take it for granted. Right. So I can say that, you know, as, as a cisgender person, as a heterosexual person, I have at times in my life kind of taken for granted that I belong to those groups, because the world is sort of set up for me, I can date who want to want marry who I want, I don't have to worry about people looking at me, you know, strangely, when I'm with my partner, I don't have to think about having photographs of my family, you know, on display, these are not things I have to worry about, just because I'm part of those dominant identity groups, right. And when it comes to my experiences of marginalization as a South Asian person as a Hindu person living in the United States, I'm very, like, hyper aware of those, right, because that's where I have felt left out. That's where I have felt like I haven't been treated fairly. And so I think, because all about sort of like a complex mix of lots of identities, we tend to pay more attention to the ones where we experienced marginalization, and less attention to the ones where we are part of the dominant group.   Michael Hingson  13:13 But we don't translate that to other groups.   Shilpa Alimchandani  13:16 Yeah. Because, again, we can we have the capacity to do it. But uh, sure, more effort, right.   Michael Hingson  13:22 Sure. And, and it's all about, though, what, what we know, and what we feel. And we, we don't tend to take that leap. We're very capable of doing it. But for some reason, we don't recognize or don't want to recognize that we're part of maybe a bigger group of marginalized or unconsidered people. And I think that's probably really it, that we look at ourselves as well. We are, we are who we are, and we make our own way. But we, we don't have those other people's problems. And so we tend to ignore them.   Shilpa Alimchandani  14:07 Yeah, sometimes it makes us feel better about ourselves like, oh, well, you know, at least we don't have to deal with that. And I think when it when it comes to like race and ethnicity in the US context, there's been a conscious effort to divide people of color from different identity groups. We do have different lived experiences, I don't have the experience of someone being black of someone being Latinx of someone being indigenous, at the same time, there are some things in common across not being white, right? And what the the the exclusion and some of the disadvantages that come with that. But it's to the advantage of the group that's in power right? For other marginalized groups to be continuing to sort of fight with one another and not see what they haven't Common, because then that allows the majority group to maintain their power. Right? So you can keep fighting amongst yourselves, right and arguing about who was more oppressed than whom. But it, it, what it does is just allows the people who are in power to keep it. So it really is incumbent upon us to bridge some of those divides like you were talking about, like, why can't we extend and see how someone else has experienced marginalization in order to change things because it's that collective action is necessary.   Michael Hingson  15:33 Yeah. And that's really it, it's collective action. Because somehow, we need to recognize that the group in power isn't really jeopardized by other people, sharing power, or not being so marginalized, but rather is strengthens all of us. Mm hmm. That's what people tend to not perceive that they're, the whole concept of their power in numbers, there is power in numbers, really is just as applicable across the board. But we don't want to recognize that because we're too focused on the power, as opposed to the rest of it. Yeah. And that, that becomes pretty unfortunate. And, of course, dealing with all those other groups, and then you have people with disabilities, which is a very large minority, second only to women from a standpoint of what we call minorities, although they're more women than men, but then within disabilities, you have different kinds of disabilities that different people have, right. And that, that causes, I think, a lot of times another issue, because it is more difficult to get all of those groups sometimes to combine together to recognize the power and numbers of everyone working together. And everyone overcoming the prejudices is about for about their disabilities or toward other people and their disabilities.   Shilpa Alimchandani  17:06 Yeah, absolutely. And to even consider, you know, the, the intersections of our identities, right, so there are people with disabilities, many different types of disabilities, like you said, and then there are people with disabilities who are white, or people with disabilities, who are people of color, there are people with disabilities who are, you know, identify as cisgender women or cisgender men, or non binary or trans, right. And so when you kind of look at those combination of identities, it gets even more complex. And it also challenges us, right, it humbles us, I would say, to acknowledge that, wow, I may really be in touch with what it's what the experience of being a person with disability in this country, and but I don't have the experience, for example, of a person of color in this country, or a person of color with a disability in this country, and that those are different experiences. And to appreciate those differences, right? We don't need to erase those differences in order to understand each other,   Michael Hingson  18:13 while the experiences are different, what isn't different, oftentimes, is the fact that we do experience prejudice and discrimination. And we talk so much about diversity, that I think you've pointed out, we don't talk about the similarities. And we're, we talk well, we're talking about becoming more diverse, and that's great. But that becomes overwhelming at some point. And so how do we bring it back down to we're all part of the same thing? Really?   Shilpa Alimchandani  18:47 Well, I think, um, there's, there's a, there's kind of a journey that that we go on in understanding difference and understanding identity, you know, at first we may not be at, you know, totally aware of some of the differences around us, and then we might move to a place of feeling polarized around it, you know, that like us them dynamic, yep, there are differences, but we're better than you, you know, and that kind of a thing, and then we get to a place. And what I'm describing here, broadly, is the intercultural development continuum, a framework that's used a lot in the DEI space, you can come to a place of minimization, which is really focusing on commonalities, right. We are human, we have common lived experiences, we can focus on common values, and let's minimize the differences right? But that's not the end of the journey, because minimizing the differences is at times denying the reality of of people's different lived experiences. And it doesn't help us to really change things to make them more fair where they're not. So then we move to kind of accepting the differences not with value judgment, but just acknowledging them. And then ultimately adapting across those differences, I would take it a step further that not only are we bridging or adapting across the differences, but that we need to learn to be allies, right? So especially if we're in a position of being part of a dominant group, like as I am as an able bodied person, you know, what does it look like for me to be an ally, for people with disabilities, and that's a responsibility that I have, right. So if we minimize differences, and we just kind of stay in that place of let's just focus on what we have in common, we don't then have the opportunity to accept, adapt and ultimately become allies. And that's really the journey that we're on,   Michael Hingson  20:44 what I don't generally hear is not so much about what we have in common, or recognizing that we all can be allies, which I absolutely agree with and understand. But we don't get to the point of recognizing the vast number of similarities that we have. And we don't get to the point of recognizing that a lot of the so called differences are not anything other than what we create ourselves,   Shilpa Alimchandani  21:16 we do create differences. And we need to understand those differences in terms of systems, right, like entire systems in our society, and the way that our, you know, workplaces are set up and within the way, you know, physical spaces, as well as policies are developed. And those systems are not necessarily designed as fairly as they could be. And so that's when I think paying attention to differences is really important, and not just focusing on similarities, because the same system is impacting people differently, depending on what identity group they belong to. And we've got to be able to surface that in order to change it.   Michael Hingson  22:02 But we do need to recognize that a lot of that comes because of the system, as opposed to whether there are real differences, or there are differences that we create. Yeah, well, I mean,   Shilpa Alimchandani  22:13 humans create systems, right. And so we can agree design systems to, but what happens is a little bit like a fish in water kind of scenario, that we don't really recognize the water that we're swimming in, you know, we it really takes us having to leave the environment and look back at it to be able to say like, oh, that's what's going on. Right? Most of the time, we don't pay attention to those systems, we just operate within them without thinking about it.   Michael Hingson  22:43 And that's my point. And that's, that's exactly it. And so we sometimes somehow have to take a step back or a step up, maybe as you would describe it to get out of the water and look at the water, and see what we can do to make changes that would make it better. And that's the leap that I don't generally see us making as a race yet.   Shilpa Alimchandani  23:12 Yeah, they're, you know, they're definitely great examples of that, you know, in, in our history, and in other parts of the world as well, like when made, you know, when countries that had been colonized for a number of years, you know, finally get their freedom when, you know, there's real truth and reconciliation efforts after a war or a period of conflict. It is it is possible, it's something that has happened. And, and I think, you know, we're kind of in a moment in our culture, where people are asking a lot of these kinds of questions. What, what's not working in the status quo and the way things are, and what needs to shift this, the pandemic, has really brought those issues front and center, the movement for racial justice has has done the same. And I think it's it's actually an exciting opportunity and exciting moment to be like, oh, people are actually talking about systems now.   Michael Hingson  24:14 Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Henry Mayer wrote a book called all on fire, which is a biography of William Lloyd Garrison. Have you ever read that? I have not. Okay. So William Lloyd Garrison, you may or may not know was a very famous abolitionist in I think, the 1840s there was a reporter and he got very much involved in the abolishing slavery. And as I said, Henry Mayer was a biographer of his and wrote this book called all on fire and in the book, there is a section where, where Garrison wanted to bring into the fold, some women the Grimm case sisters, who were very much involved in women's suffrage. And he Garrison said to his people, please contact them, let's bring them in. And their response was, but they're not involved in this their field dealing with women's suffrage, and they're not interested in this. And Garrison said something very interesting, which was, it's all the same thing. He took the leap. And he said, It's all the same thing, whether it's suffrage, whether it's slavery, abolition, or whatever, Abolishment. It's all the same thing. And that's the leap, that we generally don't take any of us on any side.   Shilpa Alimchandani  25:39 Yeah, I don't know who to credit for this quote that I've heard many times. But the idea that none of us is free until all of us are free.   Michael Hingson  25:48 Yeah. Right. And interesting and interesting, quote, and true.   Shilpa Alimchandani  25:52 And that's really, you know, I had shared with you, Michael, that my, my practice is called mukti. And Mukti means liberation or freedom in Sanskrit. And that was really kind of what was behind, you know, like, I was thinking about, like, why do I do this work? What, what motivates me? What is this ultimately about? And to your point of, you know, these experiences, whether it be suffrage, or abolishing slavery, or whatever, having some really important things in common is that we want to be free, we, as humans want to be free. And there are a lot of things that get in our way. And so that kind of became the heart of my practice is like, what does it look like to work for that freedom?   Michael Hingson  26:38 Well, let's go back to you personally, and so on. So you grew up? I think you have, and that's a good thing. And so how did you get involved in all of this division, this business of Dei? And and what you do today? What What got you started down that path? And what did you do that got you to the point of starting this company?   Shilpa Alimchandani  27:02 Yeah, so you know, certainly growing up in the 80s, and 90s. In St. Louis, there really wasn't a dei field as such, it wasn't like one of those careers that you know, about and, and prepare for, like, you know, like being an engineer or a doctor or a teacher or something like that. So it was a kind of a winding indirect path to get to this place. I knew pretty early on that I cared about justice that I cared about people understanding each other and bridging differences. But I didn't know that could be my job. So at first I thought maybe I'll become a lawyer. And then you know, I could use like legal skills to fight for justice and things like that. I even took the LSAT and never applied to law school, I was like, I don't really want to be a lawyer. So I explored a bit I worked in nonprofit, and in higher ed, and began to learn that well, there really is kind of a in the late 90s, early 2000s, like a an a growing field, in educating people about diversity. And that was kind of new to me, I was excited about that. I wanted to learn more about it. And early on, it was kind of more focused on representation, right? We need to bring people together from different backgrounds, in workplaces, and schools, etc. And then that sort of evolved into, well, it's not just enough to bring people from different backgrounds together, you need to have an environment where people feel included, where they feel valued, right. So it kind of evolved from not just diversity to diversity and inclusion. And I think kind of the more recent iteration of the field is the E in diversity, equity and inclusion. And the equity piece being really looking at that systemic part, we were just talking about, how are our systems working for us? Where are their inequities built into those systems? How can those be corrected? So that we actually have a place where people from different backgrounds can feel included and valued and feel treated fairly, and paid fairly? For the work that they do? Right, so that's when all of those come together? Of course, there's additions to that as well. Some organizations add accessibility as an aide to that, you know, some include justice. So there's, this becomes a bit of an alphabet soup, but all with the this idea of differences, valuing differences and treating people fairly at the heart of, of this work.   Michael Hingson  29:50 And that's really what it's about. And as you point out, it's really about equity. I've noticed and I'm still very serious We maintain the whole concept of diversity is much less of a really good goal to seek. Traditionally, diversity leaves out disabilities. In fact, I interviewed someone a few weeks ago. And this person talked about different kinds of diverse groups, and listed a number of things and never once mentioned disabilities, and I asked him about that. I said, I'm not picking on you, but you didn't include disabilities. And he talked about social attitudes. And he said, well, it, it includes social attitudes in some way. And my point was, No, it doesn't really, because social attitudes are a different animal and don't have anything to do with dealing with disabilities to disabilities is a different kind of thing. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting how different people approach it. Now, this particular individual was a person who is involved with another, another minority group, but still, we have to face that. Yeah. And it makes for a very interesting situation, and it makes for a challenge in life.   Shilpa Alimchandani  31:16 Yeah, I mean, it's one of those places where, you know, I have privilege as someone who doesn't experience disabilities in my life on a daily basis. And I That means for me, like to be an ally, like, what we were talking about earlier, is that I need to educate myself, right? I need to look for those opportunities, where I feel like well, yeah, sure. This is easy and accessible for me, but it wouldn't be for our friends and colleagues and people who don't have the same abilities that I do. And what can we do to change that? Okay, that that's what ally ship looks like. And I know, it can be overwhelming, right? People say, oh, there's so many, you listed so many things under this umbrella of diversity? Like how can how can we possibly, you know, pay attention to all of it. And I actually don't think it's, it's too hard for us. I think, as human beings, we have this amazing capacity for empathy, we have this capacity to our minds are malleable, we can continue to learn and grow throughout our lives, we have to have the will to do it. Right. And, and put the effort in to do it. But it is possible.   Michael Hingson  32:27 It's interesting to look at and one of the things that I think I see, and this is from my perspective, as a as a blind person, or let's say a person with a disability, it's it's interesting how I think sis Thai society teaches that all the rest of us are better than persons with disabilities to a great degree am. And I think it's very systemic. And I think, to a very large degree, it does go across all sorts of different lines. But we teach people that I teach our children that disabilities make those people less in ways that it doesn't necessarily apply to other groups. Although the concept and the overall process is the same, it still comes down to, we're in power, we're better than they, but it does go across a lot of different lines. And when we teach people that disabilities are less, that's a problem that somehow we, as part of all this need to overcome.   Shilpa Alimchandani  33:37 Yeah. And you know, it's ultimately, Michael, to your point, it's dehumanizing. We're dehumanizing entire groups of people. And sometimes it's like, quote, unquote, well intentioned, but it's really more of a pity than it is an understanding of respect and empathy for someone else's experience. And nobody needs that. Right. Nobody wants to be felt sorry for, you know,   Michael Hingson  34:06 yeah. And I think that that probably is more true. When you're dealing with a person with a disability, then a lot of other groups, you won't feel sorry for them, you may distrust them, or whatever. But for disabilities, we feel sorry. And that promotes fear. Gosh, we sure wouldn't want to be like them.   Shilpa Alimchandani  34:29 Right? Because that's the worst thing that could happen, right? So it creates more of that division of, I'm not like you and I don't want to be like you, you know, right.   Michael Hingson  34:40 Right. On the other hand, disabilities is an equal opportunity, kind of a thing. Anyone can join us at any given time unexpectedly, or maybe expectedly. But to use a bad word expectedly I don't know that's not a word. But anyway, Yes. So we have to learn to speak. But still, it is something that anyone can experience. And we don't try to equalize. So it is a it is a challenge. But But again, let's look at you what what was your career like getting into this? So it wasn't a job that really existed as such. And then you kind of discovered that maybe it really was. And so you decided not to be a lawyer, and we won't talk about the the legitimacy or efficacy of not being a lawyer, although, oh, many lawyer jokes out there. But But what did you then do? Yeah,   Shilpa Alimchandani  35:45 so, you know, my early work was at a nonprofit that no longer exists, but it was the national multicultural Institute. And they were kind of doing diversity training for organizations, and like the World Bank, and educational institutions, and some nonprofits and, and then, so I discovered, like, Oh, this is becoming a growing thing that businesses organizations want education, around issues of diversity, and how they can work better together across difference. So that was really fascinating to me, I also got involved in cross cultural communication. So when I was teaching at American University, it was in the School of International Service, which has had as a requirement for any international studies major, to take a course on cross cultural communication, to recognize that, you know, depending on what culture or part of the world we're from, we really kind of think differently, communicate differently. And it doesn't mean that that thinking or that communication is good or bad, but it's different. And we really need to appreciate, you know, how some cultures are much more direct, and some are much less so right, very indirect, how some cultures were engaged in conflict, really, you know, emotionally and others are much more emotionally restrained, you know, and some are much more individualistic, and others being more collectivist. So I started really studying these issues, and realizing that there really was an opportunity to educate people about some of these cultural differences and identity differentials, and ultimately power differences that exist in our societies. So I worked internationally, I worked at the Peace Corps, and I've traveled with the Peace Corps to different countries, to train staff who worked for the US Peace Corps. I worked for the State Department, and I did leadership drug development work there to prepare Foreign Service officers before they go abroad and during their service on how to lead effectively in those global environments. And then, I decided to leave government after a while and, and pursue private sector. And there's a lot like in the private sector. Well, there are a lot of organizations that invest heavily in diversity, equity and inclusion, big training programs, a real focus on how to make their policies and procedures more equitable. So that was really interesting, you know, to get into that consulting space, first working for a firm called cook Roth, and then three years ago, I went out on my own and, and started my own practice. And I love the work it's it's challenging, you know, there's some people who are in it for the right reasons, and others, maybe not as much. So I'm learning a lot in this field, now 20 to 20 plus years into it, but but also feeling quite fulfilled in   Michael Hingson  38:46 the work that I do. So what does cook Ross do? Or what did they do?   Shilpa Alimchandani  38:50 They're a diversity, equity and inclusion consulting firm, that they work a lot with the fortune 500, even fortune 100 corporate sector. In my independent consulting practice, I'm doing less kind of corporate work and more work in the NGO sector, with smaller businesses, nonprofit organizations, and the like.   Michael Hingson  39:13 What made you decide to go out on your own?   Shilpa Alimchandani  39:16 Oh, I had thought about starting my own business many times, and really erred on the side of stability and a stable paycheck for so many years. Until finally, I had some supports in place, right, talking about systems. I had some supports in place to make it possible for me to go out on my own. I had a partner who had a steady job with health insurance for for us and for our two children. My parents moved closer to where we live. So I had some family support in the area. And then, you know, decided just to take the leap and have confidence in myself and what I could offer as a consultant as a facility cater to clients. And the vast majority of my work is through word of mouth, I really don't even do much marketing. And I'm very fortunate to be in that role, but it also just showed me like, oh, you might have maybe you could have done this sooner. But it took me a while to feel like I had the the support and the confidence to do that.   Michael Hingson  40:21 But even though you're on your own, do you still have a relationship? or do any work with cook Ross? Or do you still teach   Shilpa Alimchandani  40:29 other consulting firms, small consulting firm, so I subcontract for them. And if this I, in addition to my consulting, press practice, I, I became a certified coach, I went through a coaching program, and became an international coaching Federation, certified coach. So I work one on one with people, largely women of color leaders who are, you know, in periods of transition or growth in their lives and in their careers to help guide them through that process, and help them really tap into all of the strength that they have, and the wisdom that they have within themselves. So I have a lot of variety in the work that I do, which I really enjoy.   Michael Hingson  41:15 So you, you, you keep connections open? And that's always a good thing. Of course, indeed. So what kind of changes have you seen in the whole field of diversity, equity inclusion and such over the years?   Shilpa Alimchandani  41:32 You know, there have been a lot of changes, I think I mentioned early on, there was a lot of focus on representation, I think a big and then, you know, looking at the culture, and how can we be more inclusive, but even in that conversation about inclusive, Michael, there was a bit of teaching people to be like us, right, like, so there was still sort of a dominant majority white male, you know, able bodied, you know, cisgender, heterosexual, you know, culture. And we invite people who belong to other groups, marginalized identities to join us, but to kind of be like us, right, and then I saw shift will know, the point is not to make everybody act like the majority group, the point is to actually create a place where people with different experiences, different identities, can all thrive in the same environment. That means changing the environment, right? That means actually looking at some of those systems, looking at the culture, and saying, you know, if it's a culture of like, everybody goes out for happy hour after work, or they have important conversations on the golf course, or whatever, that that is really fundamentally excluding a lot of people from those informal ways that people hold power in the organization. So how do we create cultures and systems that are more fair for everyone, I think, now, especially post the murder of George Floyd in 2020. And a real reckoning with the history of racism in the United States, there's much more attention being paid to some of those systemic issues in with particular guard regard to race, but also other identity groups. And that's a big shift. There were a number of years when I worked in this space, where people were still, like, uncomfortable naming race, they would talk about diversity broadly, talk about all the different things that make us the rainbow people that we are, but not deal with some of the harder, stickier Messier subjects. And I think there's more of a willingness to do that now.   Michael Hingson  43:42 And they won't deal with the words. Yeah, go ahead.   Shilpa Alimchandani  43:45 Yeah, there's, there's more. So there's like a caveat to that. There's also a lot of people who say they want to do that more difficult and challenging work. But when confronted with it, actually retreat and say, Oh, no, I'm not comfortable to this. This is a bit too challenging, too threatening. It's making me really uncomfortable. And so there are organizations, there are leaders who have said one thing, right and publicly made announcements about how they're anti racist, or they're, you know, all about equity or whatever. But then that hasn't necessarily followed through in the action. So that's, that's something that's we're dealing with now, in the field. In some places, there's a openness, a recognition for some of those difficult topics and other places. It's really just on the surface. As soon as you go a little bit beneath the surface, you realize that the commitment is really not there.   Michael Hingson  44:44 Now you have me curious, so you've got you've got the company or the group that does go out on the golf course and make decisions or that goes out for lunch and has martinis and make decisions and There are reasons for it. The reasons being that you're going away from the company, you're going away from the environment. And you can think and you can have all sorts of rationales or reasons for doing it. But nevertheless, it happens. How do we change that? How do we address that issue? Do we, when we have people who were excluded, because they don't go out on the golf course? Do we create an environment for them to be able to go on the golf course? Or do we do something different? Or are we there yet?   Shilpa Alimchandani  45:31 Um, I think we're there. I think that first of all, you we need to recognize that some of those informal practices are in fact unfair. And then if you're wanting to let go of them and say, Well, what we liked about that was that it was somewhat informal, right? But are those the only informal spaces you can create? Right? Not necessarily. There are other ways that people can connect informally in an organizational context that aren't around, you know, alcohol or, or aren't around a particular sport, or aren't around a particular, you know, activity that necessarily excludes or that are always after hours. So this is something that women have really struggled with, is that, you know, if those important conversation side conversations are happening, not during work hours, and they're still to this day, women have more responsibilities at home with family than men do, then that's an automatic disadvantage. Like you you're not even in the room, you're not even there to be part of those exchanges. That doesn't just apply to women. But that's just that's an example. So how do we then think about leadership differently, how we develop people, what our decision making processes are, how we hold each other accountable for those decisions, it kind of comes down to your organizational values, and how you live those values in the way in which you lead and the way in which you engage in your work and your interactions with your colleagues. It's easy to say on paper much harder to practice those values. Why is that? Oh, well, you know, everybody likes to have on their website or on the wall in the conference room. Oh, we believe in integrity, we believe in inclusion, right? We believe in collaboration or whatever the values may be. But what does that actually mean? What does that look like? How do you make on how do I Shilpa behave in accordance with those values? Right? Question.   Michael Hingson  47:45 It gets back to Talk is cheap. Absolutely. Talk is really cheap. Talk is really cheap. It's easy   Shilpa Alimchandani  47:53 to make these pronouncements and to say the right thing. It's much harder to practice them. And so when I engage with clients, it's really looking at those organizations and those individuals that are interested in making some change. They're like, Okay, we know this is not going to happen overnight, it's not going to happen, because you did one workshop with us. And then we all went home, it's going to be it's going to happen over time. By articulating the behaviors. We want to practice building the skills to practice those behaviors, building the accountability for us to actually implement those behaviors and those changes in our policies, then we can actually create some long term change. That's not easy. It's not sexy, it's hard to work. And that's how you create a more diverse, equitable and inclusive organization.   Michael Hingson  48:47 And it is very uncomfortable, and it's what really causes a lot of the hatred. So why is it that people hate race differences so much, because they're different than us. They're not as good as we are. And although in reality, they can demonstrate that the hair is equal is we are whoever we are. The fact is that they're calling us on it. We don't like that we don't like change. And the reality is we need to learn to change.   Shilpa Alimchandani  49:16 Yeah, this whole idea, you know, we all think of ourselves as good people, right? So when someone points out some way in which I have exclude been exclusionary or discriminatory in my behavior, my first instinct is to defend myself, but I'm a good person, I would never try and hurt another or discriminate or exclude. But in fact, as a human being that operates in these systems that we are a part of, I haven't times excluded, I have at times been unfair in the way I've treated people and just and been discriminatory. And so it's important for me to be able to acknowledge that that I can be a good person, but part of being human is that I do have some of these checks. Challenges, then only can I change it and work to change some of the systems if we're going to live in denial like, Nope, we're good people, and therefore we can't hear any of this criticism. It's not possible for me to be unfair, unjust or discriminatory. And then how are we ever going to change?   Michael Hingson  50:16 Right? Which is, which is of course, the whole point, isn't it?   Shilpa Alimchandani  50:19 Yeah. But it's hard. It's a tough, but I really, I always come back to humility in this work, you. If you are to engage in a sincere way to build a more equitable and inclusive world for everyone across identity groups, you will be humbled time, and   Michael Hingson  50:37 it's hard because we haven't learned to do it. And also, many of us just really, ultimately don't have the desire to learn to do it. And that's what we have to change. What are some of the major mistakes that you've seen organizations make? I think you've referred to some of this already. But it's worth exploring a little more.   Shilpa Alimchandani  50:57 You know, one thing that we haven't talked about yet, but I often hear from clients who seek out my services, is that, oh, we really need to focus on recruitment, right, we just need to get more diverse leadership team, we need to do a better job of reaching out to, you know, XYZ group that's underrepresented in our organization. And they put a lot of effort into recruitment. And then what happens, you bring in people from all these different backgrounds that you said, weren't represented, and now they're there, but there hasn't been much emphasis on inclusion or equity. And you've created a revolving door. Because very soon, people from those marginalized identity groups discover this isn't a place where they really feel like they're valued, or it's not a place that set up to really support them to be successful. And they leave. And then those same organizations are like, well, we put all this money and time and effort into diversifying, what did we do wrong? So to that, my I, what I say time and time again, is we have to start with equity and inclusion. And then the diversity will come if you don't start with diversity and with recruitment, and then just with wishful thinking, hope that it all works out. Once everybody's together in that organization, quite often it doesn't.   Michael Hingson  52:18 It ultimately comes down to changing the mindset, which is really what doesn't happen. And diversity doesn't change the mindset. And I think that's something that conceptually inclusion can really help to do is to change the mindset if you're really going to look at what inclusion means. And that's why I've always loved to talk about and I have a speech called moving from diversity to inclusion, because people clearly have already changed diversity to the point where it doesn't necessarily represent everyone. But ultimately, all those people, I think, still try to do it. You can't say you're inclusive, unless you are, you can talk about being partially inclusive. But that doesn't mean a thing. Either you're inclusive where you're not, then that means changing a mindset.   Shilpa Alimchandani  53:01 It does mean changing a mindset. And that mindset allows you to change some of your practices, like it can be as simple as like, how do you design an agenda for a meeting? And how do you facilitate that meeting? And how do you actually include all of the voices of the people who are part of that group? A lot of just a thing about how many times people and organizations how much time people spend in meetings, and a lot of them are not particularly inclusive, like half the people are checked out. There are a few people who dominate the conversation. Right? And it seems it's such a waste. It is such a waste, because there are ideas that are not getting shared, there are conversations that are not being had, there are conflicts that are not getting resolved. Right? Because we're just used to doing things in the same way. If we can change that mindset, like you said, and, and also some of the practices, even small things like that will make a difference, right? People will start speaking up in a different way. Right? Well, dialogue shifts,   Michael Hingson  54:07 and that's what we really need to work toward is that dialogue, shift that mindset change, and that makes a big difference in in all that we're doing. Tell me a little bit more about your company about mu T and what it does and how people can learn about it.   Shilpa Alimchandani  54:24 Great. So yeah, Mookti the M O OK T I. Consulting is my organization. As I mentioned earlier, Mookti means liberation. And I have two parts to my practice. One is organizational training and consulting. So I provide and facilitate workshops and and Leadership Development Series for organizations on all kinds of dei related topics. From you know, interrupting bias to Um feedback on microaggressions to you know, a leading with an equity lens and using the system's lens to solve problems in your organization. And, and I really enjoy that work that organizational training and consulting work. The other part of my practice is coaching. And that is one on one with individuals, primarily, I focus on women of color leaders, because coaching remains a white dominant profession in the US. And there's a real opportunity for people of color to enter this field and a lot of clientele who are looking for coaches who understand not just their leadership journey, but also how their identities impact them every day. So being a woman and a woman of color in a leadership role in an organization is different than being a man or being a white man in particular. And so those of one on one coaching conversations that I have with my clients really can unlock their potential, can free them up to make decisions that are more aligned with their values and make choices in their career that are more fulfilling for them. So in all aspects of my work, I'm about you know, freeing people, from the systems of oppression that limit us, some of that work is organizational. And some of it is individual,   Michael Hingson  56:21 if people want to reach out and contact you and explore working with you, and so on. How do they do that?   Shilpa Alimchandani  56:29 Sure. So my website is the best way to learn more about me and my work and also to contact me. And the website is simply mookticonsulting.com   Michael Hingson  56:40 Have you written any books? Or are there other places where people can get resources that you've been involved in creating? Yes, I   Shilpa Alimchandani  56:49 mean, I did write a book number of years ago, communicating development across cultures, which is more focused on cross cultural communication in the international development field. So not as much on organizational dei work as I'm doing now. I'm quite active on LinkedIn and and do post my own articles on LinkedIn. So that's a good place to find me as well.   Michael Hingson  57:16 How can people find you? Can you? I assume, by your name, can you spell   Shilpa Alimchandani  57:20 Shilpa Alimchandani in LinkedIn, I'm the only one so you'll find me pretty easily there.   Michael Hingson  57:26 Why don't you spell that? If you would, please? Sure.   Shilpa Alimchandani  57:29 So Shilpa  S H I L, P as in Peter A. and Shilpa Alimchandani is A L I M as in Mary C H, A N as in Nancy, D as in David A. N as in Nancy. I. So it's a long one, but a phonetic name. In fact, on my website, I have a little button where you can click pronounce. And it tells you how to pronounce all, you know, with an audio clip of how you say the word book, The and also how you say my name Shilpa Alimchandani   Michael Hingson  58:02 Well, I hope people will reach out. Because I think you're you're talking about a lot of very valuable things. And I think we really need to look at inclusion and really create a new mindset. As I said, I have a speech called moving from diversity to inclusion. In fact, it's the second episode on our podcast. So if you haven't washed, I hope you'll go see it. There's my plug. And then my fourth episode is a speech that Dr. Jacobus tenBroek gave Dr. Tim brick was the founder of the National Federation of the Blind. And one of the foremost constitutional law scholars in the speech he gave at the 1956 convention, the National Federation of the Blind has called within the grace of God, and especially the last two paragraphs of that speech, I love but it's a great speech that I think, whether you're talking about blindness or any other kind of group, it applies. And he was definitely a visionary in the field, and was a was a great thinker about it. So that again, that's episode four, I hope that you and other people, if you haven't listened to it will go out and listen to   Shilpa Alimchandani  59:11 know Michael, I did listen to that, upon your recommendation that episode four and that speech was really moving and inspiring, and what I would say more than anything else, I felt that it was empowering. It was so empowering, and thank you for recommending that.   Michael Hingson  59:27 And he thought that he was being gentle with people in talking about discriminations and so on. In later years, he delivered another speech in 1967. Called are we up to the challenge? And he thought that he was much more forceful in that he started the speech by saying, and again, it's about blind people, but it could it goes across the board. He said mind people have the right to live in the world, which is interesting, but I still think is 1956 speeches was says best and I think there are others who agree with that.   Shilpa Alimchandani  1:00:02 Well, it's been such a pleasure speaking with you, Michael, thank you so much for inviting me on to the podcast.   Michael Hingson  1:00:07 Well, I am glad that you came and I hope that you will come back again and definitely anytime you have more insights or whatever or there's any way that we can be a resource for you, and I'm sure others will feel the same way. Please let us know. But Shilpa  I really appreciate you coming on and all of you I appreciate you listening today. So, we hope that you will give us a five star rating and that you will reach out. Let me know what you think of what we had to discuss. I love your thoughts. All of the information will be in our show notes, including how to spell Shilpa his name and we hope that you will let us know your thoughts. So once more Shilpa Thank you for listening, at least you declare you listen to thank you for being here. Thanks. Thank you all and we'll see you next time on unstoppable mindset.   Michael Hingson  1:01:00   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

19th Century Boston was a riotous town, and in past episodes, we've examined everything from anti-draft riots to anti-catholic riots to anti-immigrant riots that took place in this city in the 19th century.  The incident on Washington Street on October 21, 1835 was different, however.  Where most of Boston's 19th century riots erupted from street violence among and directed by the working classes, the mob's attack on the Female Anti Slavery Society and abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison was led by a group characterized as “gentlemen of property and influence.”  Enraged by the audacity of radical calls for immediate abolition, this mob of respectable gentlemen broke down the doors, scattered members of the Female Anti Slavery Society, nearly lynched William Lloyd Garrison, and inspired abolitionist leader Maria Chapman to exclaim, “If this is the last bulwark of freedom, we may as well die here as anywhere!” Full show notes: http://HUBhistory.com/260/ Support us: http://patreon.com/HUBhistory/

Twenty-five-year-old William Lloyd Garrison published the anti-slavery weekly newspaper, The Liberator, starting on the first day of 1831.    The Letters of William Lloyd Garrison: I will be heard, 1822-1835 includes in its annotations on page 92 an objective summary of the circumstances of the Todd libel case.

The start of this episode's text:Regular listeners know I've been living with my apartment off the electric grid for two weeks, in Manhattan, not off in the woods.Most of the benefits are about connecting more with nature, being humble to it, not dominating it. I'm waking up earlier, for example, to work and read by daylight, so I don't have to drain the solar-powered battery. Direct sunlight is free. Likewise, during a spell of three overcast days, I had to pay attention to my power use and take advantage of what sunlight I could to charge the battery.Speaking of reading by daylight, the great benefit prompting today's post is nearly finishing a biography, Lincoln, by David Herbert Donald. I'm on page 507 of 600, not counting the over hundred pages of footnotes. Past the Gettysburg Address, he's just been nominated for his second candidacy. Talk of amending the constitution is starting to appear. The war appears mostly won, though deaths mount, Confederate wins still happen, and no one knows how to plan for or handle reconstruction.I talk a lot about slavery relating to pollution. I've for years taken inspiration from British abolitionists around 1800 who looked across oceans to see people suffering for their culture's indulgences. For the first time in history, according to podcast guest and author of Bury the Chains, Adam Hochschild, one group worked for another group's freedom. Every argument you've heard to avoid giving up polluting, their peers used to avoid giving up slavery (what I do doesn't matter, only government and corporations can make a difference, if we don't others will, it's not that bad, it will work out, etc), but they refused to accept the cruelty, injustice, and inhumanity. Through their work, and others', without a civil war, England made illegal the slave trade and then slavery. I look across oceans and see people suffering and dying, displaced from their land or poisoned and killed on it because we fund companies and governments to do it by buying their packaging, fossil fuels, and so on.People commonly describe America as a racist nation, especially white Americans, especially white Americans who don't act against racism. A Constitution permitting slavery and a three-fifths clause certainly back up that view. What do we make of all the people born into that system who did nothing to create it and who worked against it? Besides Lincoln, consider William Lloyd Garrison, Thadeus Stevens, Emerson, Thoreau, and everyone who opposed slavery from before the Constitution to today? What about the hundreds of thousands of men who fought for the Union, many volunteers, maybe not all fighting specifically to end slavery but many for just that reason?One could argue they should have done more. When they take down statues of Thomas Jefferson, who opposed slavery they point out he owned slaves. You can't argue he created the system he was born into. How much could he do to change that system within his lifetime? Can you blame him for not ending slavery? Say you blame him for owning slaves, would his freeing his slaves changed the system? Alone, clearly not, but you could argue he should have acted his conscience and done what he knew was right, whether it significantly changed the system or not. Everyone knows everyone prefers being free to being enslaved.What could a free person, benefiting from living in a system of slavery or not, have done? How would they make a difference? Lincoln took a lifetime to reach a position where he could do things like issue the Emancipation Proclamation, which didn't end slavery, and along the way embraced many crazy notions, like shipping blacks to Africa.See the rest here.Conversations with Lincoln author David Herbert Donald on C-Span See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

In 1820, The Emancipator became the first newspaper in the country devoted exclusively to the cause of abolishing slavery. It was published in Tennessee, a slave state. Other abolitionist newspapers followed, such as The Liberator, published by famous Boston abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison, and The North Star, the anti-slavery newspaper founded and edited by abolitionist leader Frederick Douglass.Today, The Emancipator rises again. This modern version is a multimedia collaboration with The Boston Globe's Opinion team and Boston University's Center for Antiracist Research.“Just as abolitionist publications in the 19th century called for the end of the enslavement of Black people, The Emancipator will amplify big ideas and solutions for achieving a racially just society,” Amber Payne and Deborah Douglas, co-editors-in-chief of The Emancipator, wrote in their introductory essay.Payne tells The Vermont Conversation that there is a difference between reporting about race and journalism that is intentionally anti-racist.“I think about reporting on racism and race (is) reporting the facts, getting the story down," Payne said. By contrast, "Anti-racist journalism (is) centering the right voices in a story, centering those that are most impacted and empowering them to tell their story.”“I don't know that we're trying to change people's minds,” Douglas said. “What we're trying to do is have a dialogue to give people the context to think about how they're implicated in the American project. So we can offer information that partially validates some of what they think but offers better information. Or we can just blow them out of the water with straight facts about how it's different, or we can offer our own personal stories or allow our contributors to offer their personal stories and their own lived experience and just really flood the public conversation with a whole new set of narratives that previously there hadn't been much room made for. By taking up space, and giving people the opportunity to at least hear a different story or a different side of the story, then possibly we can embark upon this narrative change that we hope to effect.”“We're in this shared mission drawing from that abolitionist spirit of this multiracial and diverse movement where there's shared equity around one focus," Payne said.She hopes readers of this modern abolitionist newspaper “feel equipped to maybe have that conversation with their neighbor or their father or anybody (who) they felt a bit uncomfortable about and uninformed about when it comes to racial and social justice and equity, but they feel like they can have that conversation and have a better understanding.”

In part one of our Stamped From the Beginning episode, we will be discussing Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America by Ibram X. Kendi. Here's a brief summary of the book courtesy of the author/publisher: "Some Americans cling desperately to the myth that we are living in a post-racial society, that the election of the first Black president spelled the doom of racism. In fact, racist thought is alive and well in America - more sophisticated and more insidious than ever. And as award-winning historian Ibram X. Kendi argues in Stamped from the Beginning, if we have any hope of grappling with this stark reality, we must first understand how racist ideas were developed, disseminated, and enshrined in American society. In this deeply researched and fast-moving narrative, Kendi chronicles the entire story of anti-Black racist ideas and their staggering power over the course of American history. Stamped from the Beginning uses the life stories of five major American intellectuals to offer a window into the contentious debates between assimilationists and segregationists and between racists and antiracists. From Puritan minister Cotton Mather to Thomas Jefferson, from fiery abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison to brilliant scholar W.E.B. Du Bois to legendary anti-prison activist Angela Davis, Kendi shows how and why some of our leading proslavery and pro-civil rights thinkers have challenged or helped cement racist ideas in America. Contrary to popular conceptions, racist ideas did not arise from ignorance or hatred. Instead, they were devised and honed by some of the most brilliant minds of each era. These intellectuals used their brilliance to justify and rationalize deeply entrenched discriminatory policies and the nation's racial disparities in everything from wealth to health. And while racist ideas are easily produced and easily consumed, they can also be discredited. In shedding much-needed light on the murky history of racist ideas, Stamped from the Beginning offers us the tools we need to expose them—and in the process, gives us reason to hope." This week's "Musings of Tired Black Social Worker" segment topic is engaging in Christian spaces and celebrating Christian holidays while deconstructing.  To purchase the book, visit: Stamped From the Beginning via Amazon To check out the CR podcast content calendar, visit: https://soulsessionswithneph.com/critical-reads-podcast To find out more about me or to consume more of my content, visit soulsessionswithneph.com. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook using the handle @soulsessionswithneph, or email me at connect@soulsessionswithneph.com. Thank you again for your time and support! 

In part two of our Stamped From the Beginning episode, I continue my discussion about Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America by  Ibram X. Kendi. (As a refresher) Here's a brief summary of the book courtesy of the author/publisher: "Some Americans cling desperately to the myth that we are living in a post-racial society, that the election of the first Black president spelled the doom of racism. In fact, racist thought is alive and well in America - more sophisticated and more insidious than ever. And as award-winning historian Ibram X. Kendi argues in Stamped from the Beginning, if we have any hope of grappling with this stark reality, we must first understand how racist ideas were developed, disseminated, and enshrined in American society. In this deeply researched and fast-moving narrative, Kendi chronicles the entire story of anti-Black racist ideas and their staggering power over the course of American history. Stamped from the Beginning uses the life stories of five major American intellectuals to offer a window into the contentious debates between assimilationists and segregationists and between racists and antiracists. From Puritan minister Cotton Mather to Thomas Jefferson, from fiery abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison to brilliant scholar W.E.B. Du Bois to legendary anti-prison activist Angela Davis, Kendi shows how and why some of our leading proslavery and pro-civil rights thinkers have challenged or helped cement racist ideas in America. Contrary to popular conceptions, racist ideas did not arise from ignorance or hatred. Instead, they were devised and honed by some of the most brilliant minds of each era. These intellectuals used their brilliance to justify and rationalize deeply entrenched discriminatory policies and the nation's racial disparities in everything from wealth to health. And while racist ideas are easily produced and easily consumed, they can also be discredited. In shedding much-needed light on the murky history of racist ideas, Stamped from the Beginning offers us the tools we need to expose them—and in the process, gives us reason to hope." To purchase the book, visit: Stamped From the Beginning via Amazon To check out the CR podcast content calendar, visit: https://soulsessionswithneph.com/critical-reads-podcast To find out more about me or to consume more of my content, visit soulsessionswithneph.com. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook using the handle @soulsessionswithneph, or email me at connect@soulsessionswithneph.com. Thank you again for your time and support! 

We know Frederick Douglass as a towering figure in America's fight for the abolition of slavery in the United States. In the early days of his ascent, he was allied with and managed by publisher William Lloyd Garrison and “The Contessa,” Maria Weston Chapman. In her new book The Color Of Abolition: How a Printer, a Prophet, and a Contessa Moved a Nation, our guest Linda Hirshman reveals the details of the tumultuous relationship between the three, and how it changed history. Praise For The Color Of Abolition: How A Printer, A Prophet, And A Contessa Moved A Nation… "Hirshman's book is a lively depiction of the antislavery movement, in which the three charismatic characters at the heart of her story provide an engaging avenue into the competing philosophies and strategies that continually challenged abolitionism's unity and effectiveness. Her writing is breezy, designed to engage readers who are not historians and whose interests may lie more in the present than the past." — Washington Post “Hirshman brings much-needed attention to the little-known triangulation between Garrison, Douglass, and Chapman, opening a new realm of inquiry for readers of the history of slavery and abolition.” — Library Journal “Linda Hirshman has two goals. One is to tell the story of the American antislavery movement. This broad narrative provides background for the author's other focus, a group portrait of three deeply intertwined abolitionists [and reflects] the author's interest in the current ‘lively and painful conversation about the possibility and conditions of an interracial alliance.'” — Wall Street Journal “Page-turning reading . . . . a wonderful cataloging of Americans, white and Black, who devoted their lives to ending slavery.” — Boston Globe “Linda Hirshman adroitly shows us that in the celebrated break up between Douglass and Garrison, a pivotal actor was Maria Weston Chapman. A brilliant but intrusive soul, Chapman stood watch over both men from a manager's desk in Boston. Beyond intrigue, though, this book provides a splendid lens into the nature of both the moral and political wings of abolitionism at their turbulent turning point. The ideologies of antislavery emerge here from vivid portraits of these three fascinating and rivalrous characters.” — David W. Blight, Yale University, and author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning Frederick Douglass: Prophet of Freedom “By lucidly untangling the abolitionist movement's complex web of alliances, Hirshman sheds light on the antebellum period and the dynamics of social movements in general. American history buffs will be engrossed.” — Publishers Weekly "A rousing account of America's one truly great crusade, studded with fascinating characters playing for the highest of stakes: freedom.” — Megan Marshall, Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Margaret Fuller “Viewing the abolitionist movement from a unique angle, Hirshman shows how the breakdown of the alliance among [activists Frederick Douglass, William Llloyd Garrison, and Maria Weston Chapman] was fueled in part by Douglass' rising fame, burgeoning dissent among the nation's political parties, and, not least, Weston Chapman's aspersions about Douglass' work ethic and character. A well-researched history of the fraught path to emancipation.” — Kirkus Reviews --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/alyssa-milano-sorry-not-sorry/message

From the founding of the United States, there were people who opposed slavery, but many who grappled with the concept, including slave owner Thomas Jefferson, envisioned a plan of gradual emancipation for the country. In 1817, after the establishment of the American Colonization Society, free Blacks in Philadelphia and elsewhere began to fight for immediate abolition for all enslaved people in the United States. By the 1830s, they were joined in these efforts by white allies. Although not as well known as later abolitionists like Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, and Frederick Douglass, the abolitionists of the 1830s played a crucial role in building and popularizing the movement. These abolitionists, including William Lloyd Garrison, David Ruggles, Arthur and Lewis Tappan, the Forten Family, and the Grimké sisters, faced personal violence, destruction of property, financial ruin, and physical maladies as they raised their voices and put their bodies on the line for the cause. I'm joined in this episode by J.D. Dickey, author of The Republic of Violence: The Tormented Rise of Abolition in Andrew Jackson's America. Our theme song is Frogs Legs Rag, composed by James Scott and performed by Kevin MacLeod, licensed under Creative Commons. Image Credit: “Anti-Slavery Meeting on the [Boston] Common” From Gleason's Pictorial, May 3, 1851. Photomural from woodcut. Prints and Photographs Division, Library of Congress. Additional Sources: “Jan. 15, 1817: The Vote on Colonization of Free Blacks in West Africa,” The Zinn Education Project. “Africans in America,” PBS. “Grimke Sisters,” National Park Service. “The Abolitionists,” American Experience, PBS, Aired January 8, 2013. David Ruggles Center for History and Education. “Friends of Freedom: The Pennsylvania Female Anti-Slavery Society,” Historical Society of Pennsylvania.  Related Episodes: The Nativist Riots of Philadelphia in 1844 Prohibition in the 1850s Freedom Suits in Maryland & DC, 1790-1864 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Not many people go to the graveyard to buy books, but not many people are Ken Gloss. He stopped by Boston's Forest Hills Cemetery the other day to pick up a collection of works by some of the cemetery's permanent residents: Anne Sexton, E. E. Cummings, Eugene O'Neill, and William Lloyd Garrison. Inspired by Mount. Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge, Forest Hills is a garden cemetery, a lavishly landscaped, park-like setting, built to provide not only a resting place for the dead but a surprisingly pleasant place for the living to bird-watch, stroll, or simply reflect. In addition to its illustrious occupants and sylvan setting, Forest Hills boasts memorial sculptures by Daniel Chester French, Martin Milmore, Thomas Ball, and many others. Join us today as we talk tombs, tomes, books, and bones on a hauntingly interesting #brattlecast.

The 1830s were the most violent time in American history outside of war. Men battled each other in the streets in ethnic and religious conflicts, gangs of party henchmen rioted at the ballot box, and assault and murder were common enough as to seem unremarkable. The president who presided over the era, Andrew Jackson, was himself a duelist and carried lead in his body from previous gunfights. It all made for such a volatile atmosphere that a young Abraham Lincoln said “outrages committed by mobs form the every-day news of the times.”The principal targets of mob violence were abolitionists and black citizens, who had begun to question the foundation of the U.S. economy — chattel slavery — and demand an end to it. Led by figures like William Lloyd Garrison and James Forten, the anti-slavery movement grew from a small band of committed activists to a growing social force that attracted new followers in the hundreds, and enemies in the thousands. Even in the North, abolitionists faced almost unimaginable hatred, with newspaper publishers, businessmen with a stake in the slave trade, and politicians of all stripes demanding they be suppressed, silenced or even executed.Carrying bricks and torches, guns and knives, mobs created pandemonium, and forced the abolition movement to answer key questions as it began to grow: Could nonviolence work in the face of arson and attempted murder? Could its leaders stick together long enough to build a movement with staying power, or would they turn on each other first? And could it survive to last through the decade, and inspire a new generation of activists to fight for the cause? J.D. Dickey reveals the stories of these Black and white men and women persevered against such threats to demand that all citizens be given the chance for freedom and liberty embodied in the Declaration of Independence. Their sacrifices and strategies would set a precedent for the social movements to follow, and lead the nation toward war and emancipation, in the most turbulent era of our republic of violence.-J. D. Dickey is the New York Times bestselling author of Empire of Mud, a history of the troubled rise of Washington, D.C., in the nineteenth century, Rising in Flames: Sherman's March and the Fight for a New Nation and American Demagogue, both published by Pegasus Books.

On this week's 51%, we speak with University at Albany professor Dr. Janell Hobson about the life and work of Harriet Tubman, and a new project with Ms. magazine to mark Tubman's 200th birthday. We also speak with author Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts about her book Black Joy: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration. Guests: Dr. Janell Hobson, UAlbany professor and editor of the The Harriet Tubman Bicentennial Project; Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts, author of Black Joy: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration 51% is a national production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio. It's produced by Jesse King. Our executive producer is Dr. Alan Chartock, and our theme is "Lolita" by the Albany-based artist Girl Blue. Follow Along You're listening to 51%, a WAMC production on women's issues and experiences. Thanks for joining us, I'm Jesse King. When you think of prominent women in American history, who comes to mind? Susan B. Anthony? Rosa Parks? Harriett Tubman? Well, hopefully all three and more – but Harriet Tubman is perhaps one of the most popular female figures in American history, particularly Black history. In fact, the abolitionist won a popularity contest of sorts in a 2015 poll gaging which historic woman should be the new face of the $20 bill. A redesigned bill with her likeness is set to rollout by 2030. Growing up, I was primarily taught about Harriet Tubman's work as a conductor on the Underground Railroad – but like all of us, there were many sides to her: a liberator, a nurse, a veteran of the Civil War, spy, suffragist, daughter, sister, mother, and friend. I thought it'd be nice to learn a little more about Tubman's work, who she was, and her legacy. Of course, it's Black History Month, but we're also circling Tubman's 200th birthday: she was believed to have been born Araminta Ross in late February / early March 1822. Dr. Janell Hobson, a professor of women's, gender, and sexuality studies at the University at Albany, is the impetus behind an initiative to commemorate the “Tubman 200.” The Harriet Tubman Bicentennial Project is a special collection of essays, poetry, artwork, and interactive pieces honoring Tubman in Ms. magazine through March 10. Hobson has been studying Tubman for years, and told me more about the magazine's guest of honor. Her story starts in Dorchester County, Maryland, when she was born - or maybe we can even go further than that. Because I know in my introductory essay, I talk about her maternal grandmother, who came from the Gold Coast of West Africa, what we now call Ghana. And her maternal grandmother was called Modesty, and she was from the Asante Tribe in Ghana, and she was brought over to Eastern Shore, Maryland through the transatlantic slave trade sometime during the American Revolutionary War period, in the 18th century. And that grandmother gave birth to her mother, who was also called Harriet - actually, Harriet Tubman renames herself when she married. She named herself after her mother, although everyone called her her mother “Rit” for short. So that is where I would start with her story, just thinking of how slavery was a kind of matrilineal heritage. And by that, I mean, most slave laws in the United States actually stipulated, they required that all children that are born to enslaved women would themselves be enslaved. So it doesn't matter who the father is - the father could be enslaved, or the father could be a free Black person, or the father could even be a white man, but if the mother is enslaved, that child will be enslaved. And that's kind of how we get this idea of race, as well as race shaped by gender politics. So what I like about Harriet Tubman's story is that she rejects that birthright outright.  And so how exactly did she work to liberate herself, and what were the driving forces of her becoming a conductor on the Underground Railroad? In 1849 is when Harriet Tubman attempts to escape from slavery. And she actually attempts to escape twice - the first time, September 17, she tries to run away with two of her brothers, but they lose their way, so they end up returning. And part of the reason why she wanted to run away is because she was being threatened with sale further south. Her owner had died earlier that year in March, and his widow was contemplating selling off her slaves to settle whatever debts she accrued in her widowhood. Harriet Tubman got wind of this and decided that, you know, if she's to go further south, she's not going to see anybody, any of her loved ones, ever again. That already happened, because she had already lost three sisters to the auction block. So she tries the first time with two brothers, they end up returning, and then sometime later on in the fall, she runs away on her own this time. She's able to kind of follow some of the instructions she had gathered about the Underground Railroad, so she's hiding out by day and follows the North Star by night. She does this 100-mile trek to Philadelphia, and that's when she's able to reach freedom. But she makes the choice to go back because she was all alone, and she could not feel herself being free when her family and friends are back in slavery. So that was very much the motivation for going back over and over again. So she made roughly 13 trips back to the south for the decade of the 1850s, and she rescues around 70 people, and was able to also pass instructions on to an equal number of other people who were able to follow her instructions to get to freedom. It does require you to think about the skills that she had. That's one of the things that I liked about the different essays we've been able to highlight in the series for this project. For example, one of our earlier articles was by Chanda Prescod-Weinstein, who is a theorist of astrophysics, and she writes about Harriet Tubman being a great astronomer. For example, being able to follow the North Star - she learned these skills from people like her father, Ben Ross, and others in her community who learned to live off the land, who learned to navigate by the night sky, navigate through the forest, being able to use the forest as a way to be able to track your way and find your way around. She's also disabled. She was severely injured when she was an adolescent, sometime between 1834 and 1836. She's on an errand to a neighborhood store, where she's actually struck accidentally - there was an overseer striking this two pound lead weight at a runaway slave, and she got in the way, and she was struck in the head and she nearly died. But from this injury, she experienced debilitating seizures, epileptic seizures, and based on some of the descriptions of what she experienced, you know, visions and strange dreams - she had out of body sensations. So some historians, I'm thinking of someone like Kate Larson, for example, who contributed, believe that she suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy. And those are some of the conditions [she faced]. So we also have to imagine, not only did she have great skill in being able to navigate her way through the night, navigate her way from Maryland to Pennsylvania, but she's also doing this as a disabled Black woman. Wow. And she also helped organize a raid, correct? Yes, Actually, because of her skills as an Underground Railroad conductor, there were those who - and that's the interesting thing about Harriet Tubman, she seems to have known so many important people. So the governor of Massachusetts immediately recommends her as someone who should be volunteering to provide service for the Union forces in the Civil War. She gets involved in the Civil War in 1862, when she is sent down to Beaufort, South Carolina, where she's working as a spy, as a scout, as a nurse, also as a cook. And so that's part of the work she was doing when she started scouting the Combahee River, South Carolina.  In 1863, June 2 1863, she becomes the first woman in U.S. history to actually lead troops and their commander in this military raid, and they're able to free 756 people. It's amazing. And that's an interesting question, I think, in terms of why is it more people don't know that about her? I think one of the ironies of that is, we know who Harriet Tubman is precisely because she agreed to dictate a biography about her life to make up for not getting paid for her services as a Civil War veteran. You mentioned in your introduction a description of Harriet Tubman by biographer Milton Sernett, saying she is a “litmus test” for diversity and inclusion. Can you tell me what you mean by that, or what he meant by that? OK, so Milton Sernett was actually referring to multiculturalism, we now call it diversity and inclusion, so I just updated that - but he actually was referring to the ways in which, when Harriet Tubman is introduced into the curriculum, we then have debates about the appropriateness for having that. And I think that it's apropos to what we're dealing with now with the different kinds of conversations we're having about inclusive education, or even the ways that a term like critical race theory gets bandied about and means different things to different people, based on their own ideas about what race and racial history means in this country. So Harriet Tubman is an interesting, I think, “litmus test,” precisely because she's the most popular Black woman in American history - right alongside Sojourner Truth and Rosa Parks, obviously, but she's definitely one of the most recognized women. So when you bring her into the conversation, it's an invitation to bring in other aspects of Black history and Black women's history. So she's a gateway in some way. And I think what's interesting about Harriet Tubman is her story ends in freedom - not only ending in freedom, it ends in liberation. She's liberating other people, whether we're talking about her going back to the slave south multiple times, or with what she was able to do during the Civil War, and free in 756 people. So she's actively engaged in fighting for freedom. She's a freedom fighter. It also forces us to see Black women, Black people in general, who have had a hand in their own freedom and in their own liberation. So that that changes the kind of narrative that you create about American history, where it's no longer about, “Oh, President Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves through the Emancipation Proclamation.” That obviously needs to be complicated when you realize, actually, if you look at those who were enslaved and who were able to free themselves, they had a hand in their own freedom. They had a hand in their own liberation. We need to recognize that, and someone like Harriet Tubman, she's living proof that people did not just passively accept the status quo. I think you might have already just touched on it, but I was gonna ask you, what do you hope readers most get out of this project? What's interesting is that for Ms. Magazine, this year is also a milestone for them. It's their 50th anniversary. They we're very much involved in the use of journalism and media for the frontlines of the feminist movement. I think it's important to recognize that, in addition to Harriet Tubman's importance to Black history, she's also important to women's history as well. She was part of the women's suffrage movement. So issues of voting rights is also part of that legacy. The week before she died - she died March 10, 1913 - the week before, March 3, was the women's national suffrage march that they had in Washington D.C. And she was already too ill to attend, but she did deliver a message through Black suffragists, specifically Mary B. Talbert, and she told the women suffragists, you know, to stand together: “Tell the women to stand together for God will not forsake us.” Now, granted, the women did not stand together - there were quite a few racist white suffragists who refused to unite with the Black women who attended, and even tried to insist that they get at the back of the line of the parade. Which is unfortunate, because that is so against the kind of message that Harriet Tubman put forth - because what's interesting about Harriet Tubman is she is very much a leader within Black communities, she's able to organize and work within her own community, but she also did really good solidarity work with other people. And there are other white abolitionists and white supporters of Black rights that she was able to work with. She was able to work with John Brown, she was able to work with William Lloyd Garrison, she was able to work with Susan B. Anthony and Lucretia Mott. And it's because of her ability to work across those racial lines, and across the gender lines, that I think why we still know her, because so many people were willing to write about her. In addition to the series of essays, in which you can learn more about Harriet Tubman, you can also explore her whole life history - we have a very comprehensive timeline. We also have an interactive calculator to figure out just how much we actually owe Harriet Tubman for her enslaved labor. We have poetry, we have a public haiku tribute. So the public is actually invited to submit a haiku in tribute to Harriet Tubman's bicentennial. It is a birthday celebration, so we're trying to celebrate her, and to show that is part of history, but it's also very much a history that is still very living, it's very present. I think we can think of our time in 2022 as a crossroads moment, where we could either go back in time to doing things in an oppressive way, or we can actually move forward towards a more equitable future that is based on a firmer foundation of justice for all. Harriet Tubman is somebody who can actually help us in terms of getting into the right direction. Dr. Janell Hobson is the editor of the Harriet Tubman Bicentennial Project out now in Ms. magazine, both online and in print, through March 10.  Our next guest is celebrating a milestone of her own. Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts has been writing professionally for roughly 20 years. She's published at least 15 works, teaches English and Black Studies at the Community College of Philadelphia, and is the founder of HeARTspace, a community to help those dealing with trauma via storytelling and the arts. To mark her 20-year career, she released her latest book at the start of Black History Month, titled Black Joy: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration. Throughout 36 autobiographical essays, Lewis-Giggetts explores the restorative strength of joy in Black culture, and the ways in which it can be used for both personal and communal healing. “You know, Black Joy kind of came out of my personal experience. It came out of me wrestling with what joy felt like in my body, going to therapy and my therapist, like, literally asking me, ‘What does joy feel like?'  And I, you know, being 40 some-odd-years-old and like, ‘I don't know.' And so beginning to unpack that work, and then using it, really, as an entry point for looking at how Black people in general have been able to use joy as a way to resist, but also, I think, to heal from some of the trauma and some of our historical and even present day experiences.” You make it a point in the beginning of the book to differentiate between happiness and joy. So to start off, how do you define joy, and especially Black joy? Absolutely. I think happiness is, you know, that moment - let's just say I'm on the roller coaster at Six Flags, and like, I'm excited, and I'm with my family, and I'm having a good time. It tends to just show up in particular moments. I think joy is something that is ever present, even if we don't feel it, so to speak. It is always accessible to us, if we know how to access it, right? It's like, you know, how does an enslaved person still laugh, when laughter literally could have been a potential for death? It doesn't mean that they were happy about their situation, it meant that there was an underlying, almost like a spiritual undercurrent. Black joy is simply all of that human stuff within the context and the experience of Black people in America, but also globally. And so Black joy looks a little different, because it lives in the same container, if you will, of grief and trauma and all of the other experiences that are maybe not the same as other groups.  You lay out early on that Black joy can be a “mechanism for resistance, a method of resilience and a master plan for restoration.” Can you elaborate on that a little more for me? Sure. I mean, Black joy as resistance, I think, is the catchphrase that we've been hearing especially over the last couple of years or so. I think what that just means is that in the midst of protests, in the midst of the fight for rights and equality, and equity, and all those things, there are also opportunities for our joy to stand as a way of saying, “I am human.”  It is a way to fight the dehumanization that comes with racism, and discrimination, and white supremacy, and all those kinds of things. Like the protests of summer 2020, there was two things happening there: there was the confrontations with police, there was the chanting, there was the faces we saw on the media - but then there were also dancing and singing. And in Philly, there was a couple who got married right in the middle [of the protest]. So there were these, you know, this undercurrent, as I said before, of joy that was ever present. But I think that it's also the way that Black folks have always healed. When we get to resilience and restoration, what I mean is that there has always been, especially somatically in our bodies, ways that we have been able to move that trauma out of us so we can live another day. So we can take care of our family. So we can do what we need to do. So it's a resistance, but it's also the way we have always healed. I like how you also pointed out that joy should be founded on self love and compassion. Why do you think that? I think the biggest thing is it spurs longevity. That fine line between happiness and joy that I talked about, it gets really gray if joy is only experienced on a moment-by-moment basis, or we can only feel it on a moment-by-moment basis. And I think having a foundation of self-compassion, of grace, of self-love, allows for you to be always aware of where joy is, even if you're grieving and not actively able to call it up, so to speak. You're aware that it's there. The only way you know that is if you are able to see yourself differently, and I think that's what I kind of get into, especially early on in the book. Like, I want Black folks to maybe eschew or get rid of the gaze of what maybe white people, or what the government, whoever else might be thinking, and focus internally, look at our community and say, “We love each other. We love us.” And in doing so, our joy becomes more prominent. And I feel like it will add to our movements, it will make our movements have more longevity. Even more so than what it already has. So I know you touched on it a little bit earlier, but how did you personally access or discover your joy? As I said, I had a therapist who asked me, like, “What does it feel like?” And I was like, “I don't know.” So I had to begin that work. And I tell the story in the book, that I just happened to be watching a very popular television show, and I was just grinning and laughing. I'm a storyteller, so I just was happy because or, you know, experiencing joy, I think, because I was excited about the characters and the way it was being written, and the layers, and all those kinds of things. And my husband walks in, and he's like, “Something weird is going on. Let me leave.” But in that moment, I think I'm self aware enough to say, “Wait a minute, my hands feel weird. My chest is heaving, like, I'm excited, I'm happy. Ah, okay. This is what joy feels like in my body.” And not so that I can run around, I guess, telling people that - although I guess that's what I'm doing in this book - but so that when I have, as I've had recently, back-to-back losses in my family, when I am experiencing frustration or anger at the Voting Rights Act not being passed, I can call upon [it]. It's like a screenshot or a snapshot, right, that I can remember what joy felt like in my body, and I can go get it - not so that I can push the pain aside, but so I can create some balance so that I can, again, live another day. I'm very sorry to hear about your losses. Now that you are able to more easily access your joy, what are some of the other ways that you nurture it and practice self-love and self-compassion? Did writing this book open up new ways for you to do that? I think one of the things is resting. I love the Nap Ministry that's online, and how she really emphasizes rest as a way to counter the colonization, white supremacy mindset that's out there. It's a form of defiance, right? [To think that] it's not something that you earn, it's something that is your right. And I feel like I think of joy in the same way, and I think of self-love in the same way. And so, for me, it's about my morning rituals, it's about my practices - you have meditation and prayer - it's about the ways I decide to say no. And I'm still working on it, but I try to be OK with saying no. And the way I snuggle with my daughter, and I look at her, and I see myself - the free version of myself - and I take that in and sit with it, so that it becomes one with me, right? Like, I then become just as free as she is, even though I have all the stuff and all the bags. So yeah, writing the book, I think helped me to explore additional ways, things that I wasn't doing beforehand that I do try to make a conscious effort to do now.  I feel like there are a lot of conversations going on right now about mental health and self-care and self-compassion. Is there anything that you feel is sort of missing from that conversation at the moment, or something that you would like to add to that conversation? I mean, I love the fact that we're talking about it more. I love that in a lot of ways we are removing the stigma of things like therapy or therapeutic interventions, or even medication, or any of that. I love that that's happening. I think there's some decolonization work that still has to happen. There's also issues around access and privilege. I recognize my privilege as someone who can go to a therapist every week - not everybody has access to health insurance, or access to that. And you can destigmatize it all you want, but if I can't get to it just because of economic reasons or whatever…that's a barrier that I think needs to be talked about even more. I know there are people talking about it, but like, even more, and I gravitate toward that, because it disproportionately affects Black and brown folks, you know? The people who are experiencing this generational trauma, if you will, as a result of white supremacist systems, also are being limited in being able to access one of the many ways [to address it] - which, by the way, is the reason why we've come up with our own tools, including joy, to heal. Because we didn't have access to that. So I think that's probably the conversation I would like to see more of. While you were writing this book, was there a part that was particularly special or therapeutic to you? I think the thread that moves me the most, when I think about the essays, are the ones where I talk about my grandmother, and my great grandmother, and just my ancestors in general. You know, it's easy - and necessary, in a lot of ways - to talk about the hardships and the trauma, and what maybe they didn't have access to, or didn't know. But what I loved was being able to explore what they did know, and what they passed down that wasn't trauma. The generational joy that they gave me, the ways to see the world. Writing about my grandmother, and how she traveled the world working for this family - but really retained her sense of self, right? She wasn't going to buy into any stereotypical images of who she should be as a caretaker for a prominent white family. She was very much herself, and taught me how to reinvent myself over and over again. So those were the stories I'm grateful to have written, that I had the chance to write.  Overall, what do you hope readers take away from your book? I hope that by reading my story, they will be able to turn inward and unpack their own story, and begin to think about, or figure out, what joy feels like in their own bodies. And, you know, begin to work at accessing it when they need it to counter the grief - or, you know, not even to counter, but to allow that joy to live alongside all the other emotions that they have. So, if people are doing that kind of work as they're processing my essays, then I think my job is done. Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts is the author of Black Joy: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration, out now on Gallery Books.  You've been listening to 51%. 51% is a national production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio. It's produced by me, Jesse King. Our executive producer is Dr. Alan Chartock, and our theme is “Lolita” by the Albany-based artist Girl Blue. A big thanks to Dr. Janell Hobson, Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts, and you for tuning in. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram @51percentradio. Let us know what you think or if you have a story you'd like to share as well. Until next week, I'm Jesse King for 51%.

On this week's 51%, we speak with University at Albany professor Dr. Janell Hobson about the life and work of Harriet Tubman, and a new project with Ms. magazine to mark Tubman's 200th birthday. We also speak with author Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts about her book Black Joy: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration. Guests: Dr. Janell Hobson, UAlbany professor and editor of the The Harriet Tubman Bicentennial Project; Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts, author of Black Joy: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration 51% is a national production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio. It's produced by Jesse King. Our executive producer is Dr. Alan Chartock, and our theme is "Lolita" by the Albany-based artist Girl Blue. Follow Along You're listening to 51%, a WAMC production on women's issues and experiences. Thanks for joining us, I'm Jesse King. When you think of prominent women in American history, who comes to mind? Susan B. Anthony? Rosa Parks? Harriett Tubman? Well, hopefully all three and more – but Harriet Tubman is perhaps one of the most popular female figures in American history, particularly Black history. In fact, the abolitionist won a popularity contest of sorts in a 2015 poll gaging which historic woman should be the new face of the $20 bill. A redesigned bill with her likeness is set to rollout by 2030. Growing up, I was primarily taught about Harriet Tubman's work as a conductor on the Underground Railroad – but like all of us, there were many sides to her: a liberator, a nurse, a veteran of the Civil War, spy, suffragist, daughter, sister, mother, and friend. I thought it'd be nice to learn a little more about Tubman's work, who she was, and her legacy. Of course, it's Black History Month, but we're also circling Tubman's 200th birthday: she was believed to have been born Araminta Ross in late February / early March 1822. Dr. Janell Hobson, a professor of women's, gender, and sexuality studies at the University at Albany, is the impetus behind an initiative to commemorate the “Tubman 200.” The Harriet Tubman Bicentennial Project is a special collection of essays, poetry, artwork, and interactive pieces honoring Tubman in Ms. magazine through March 10. Hobson has been studying Tubman for years, and told me more about the magazine's guest of honor. Her story starts in Dorchester County, Maryland, when she was born - or maybe we can even go further than that. Because I know in my introductory essay, I talk about her maternal grandmother, who came from the Gold Coast of West Africa, what we now call Ghana. And her maternal grandmother was called Modesty, and she was from the Asante Tribe in Ghana, and she was brought over to Eastern Shore, Maryland through the transatlantic slave trade sometime during the American Revolutionary War period, in the 18th century. And that grandmother gave birth to her mother, who was also called Harriet - actually, Harriet Tubman renames herself when she married. She named herself after her mother, although everyone called her her mother “Rit” for short. So that is where I would start with her story, just thinking of how slavery was a kind of matrilineal heritage. And by that, I mean, most slave laws in the United States actually stipulated, they required that all children that are born to enslaved women would themselves be enslaved. So it doesn't matter who the father is - the father could be enslaved, or the father could be a free Black person, or the father could even be a white man, but if the mother is enslaved, that child will be enslaved. And that's kind of how we get this idea of race, as well as race shaped by gender politics. So what I like about Harriet Tubman's story is that she rejects that birthright outright.  And so how exactly did she work to liberate herself, and what were the driving forces of her becoming a conductor on the Underground Railroad? In 1849 is when Harriet Tubman attempts to escape from slavery. And she actually attempts to escape twice - the first time, September 17, she tries to run away with two of her brothers, but they lose their way, so they end up returning. And part of the reason why she wanted to run away is because she was being threatened with sale further south. Her owner had died earlier that year in March, and his widow was contemplating selling off her slaves to settle whatever debts she accrued in her widowhood. Harriet Tubman got wind of this and decided that, you know, if she's to go further south, she's not going to see anybody, any of her loved ones, ever again. That already happened, because she had already lost three sisters to the auction block. So she tries the first time with two brothers, they end up returning, and then sometime later on in the fall, she runs away on her own this time. She's able to kind of follow some of the instructions she had gathered about the Underground Railroad, so she's hiding out by day and follows the North Star by night. She does this 100-mile trek to Philadelphia, and that's when she's able to reach freedom. But she makes the choice to go back because she was all alone, and she could not feel herself being free when her family and friends are back in slavery. So that was very much the motivation for going back over and over again. So she made roughly 13 trips back to the south for the decade of the 1850s, and she rescues around 70 people, and was able to also pass instructions on to an equal number of other people who were able to follow her instructions to get to freedom. It does require you to think about the skills that she had. That's one of the things that I liked about the different essays we've been able to highlight in the series for this project. For example, one of our earlier articles was by Chanda Prescod-Weinstein, who is a theorist of astrophysics, and she writes about Harriet Tubman being a great astronomer. For example, being able to follow the North Star - she learned these skills from people like her father, Ben Ross, and others in her community who learned to live off the land, who learned to navigate by the night sky, navigate through the forest, being able to use the forest as a way to be able to track your way and find your way around. She's also disabled. She was severely injured when she was an adolescent, sometime between 1834 and 1836. She's on an errand to a neighborhood store, where she's actually struck accidentally - there was an overseer striking this two pound lead weight at a runaway slave, and she got in the way, and she was struck in the head and she nearly died. But from this injury, she experienced debilitating seizures, epileptic seizures, and based on some of the descriptions of what she experienced, you know, visions and strange dreams - she had out of body sensations. So some historians, I'm thinking of someone like Kate Larson, for example, who contributed, believe that she suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy. And those are some of the conditions [she faced]. So we also have to imagine, not only did she have great skill in being able to navigate her way through the night, navigate her way from Maryland to Pennsylvania, but she's also doing this as a disabled Black woman. Wow. And she also helped organize a raid, correct? Yes, Actually, because of her skills as an Underground Railroad conductor, there were those who - and that's the interesting thing about Harriet Tubman, she seems to have known so many important people. So the governor of Massachusetts immediately recommends her as someone who should be volunteering to provide service for the Union forces in the Civil War. She gets involved in the Civil War in 1862, when she is sent down to Beaufort, South Carolina, where she's working as a spy, as a scout, as a nurse, also as a cook. And so that's part of the work she was doing when she started scouting the Combahee River, South Carolina.  In 1863, June 2 1863, she becomes the first woman in U.S. history to actually lead troops and their commander in this military raid, and they're able to free 756 people. It's amazing. And that's an interesting question, I think, in terms of why is it more people don't know that about her? I think one of the ironies of that is, we know who Harriet Tubman is precisely because she agreed to dictate a biography about her life to make up for not getting paid for her services as a Civil War veteran. You mentioned in your introduction a description of Harriet Tubman by biographer Milton Sernett, saying she is a “litmus test” for diversity and inclusion. Can you tell me what you mean by that, or what he meant by that? OK, so Milton Sernett was actually referring to multiculturalism, we now call it diversity and inclusion, so I just updated that - but he actually was referring to the ways in which, when Harriet Tubman is introduced into the curriculum, we then have debates about the appropriateness for having that. And I think that it's apropos to what we're dealing with now with the different kinds of conversations we're having about inclusive education, or even the ways that a term like critical race theory gets bandied about and means different things to different people, based on their own ideas about what race and racial history means in this country. So Harriet Tubman is an interesting, I think, “litmus test,” precisely because she's the most popular Black woman in American history - right alongside Sojourner Truth and Rosa Parks, obviously, but she's definitely one of the most recognized women. So when you bring her into the conversation, it's an invitation to bring in other aspects of Black history and Black women's history. So she's a gateway in some way. And I think what's interesting about Harriet Tubman is her story ends in freedom - not only ending in freedom, it ends in liberation. She's liberating other people, whether we're talking about her going back to the slave south multiple times, or with what she was able to do during the Civil War, and free in 756 people. So she's actively engaged in fighting for freedom. She's a freedom fighter. It also forces us to see Black women, Black people in general, who have had a hand in their own freedom and in their own liberation. So that that changes the kind of narrative that you create about American history, where it's no longer about, “Oh, President Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves through the Emancipation Proclamation.” That obviously needs to be complicated when you realize, actually, if you look at those who were enslaved and who were able to free themselves, they had a hand in their own freedom. They had a hand in their own liberation. We need to recognize that, and someone like Harriet Tubman, she's living proof that people did not just passively accept the status quo. I think you might have already just touched on it, but I was gonna ask you, what do you hope readers most get out of this project? What's interesting is that for Ms. Magazine, this year is also a milestone for them. It's their 50th anniversary. They we're very much involved in the use of journalism and media for the frontlines of the feminist movement. I think it's important to recognize that, in addition to Harriet Tubman's importance to Black history, she's also important to women's history as well. She was part of the women's suffrage movement. So issues of voting rights is also part of that legacy. The week before she died - she died March 10, 1913 - the week before, March 3, was the women's national suffrage march that they had in Washington D.C. And she was already too ill to attend, but she did deliver a message through Black suffragists, specifically Mary B. Talbert, and she told the women suffragists, you know, to stand together: “Tell the women to stand together for God will not forsake us.” Now, granted, the women did not stand together - there were quite a few racist white suffragists who refused to unite with the Black women who attended, and even tried to insist that they get at the back of the line of the parade. Which is unfortunate, because that is so against the kind of message that Harriet Tubman put forth - because what's interesting about Harriet Tubman is she is very much a leader within Black communities, she's able to organize and work within her own community, but she also did really good solidarity work with other people. And there are other white abolitionists and white supporters of Black rights that she was able to work with. She was able to work with John Brown, she was able to work with William Lloyd Garrison, she was able to work with Susan B. Anthony and Lucretia Mott. And it's because of her ability to work across those racial lines, and across the gender lines, that I think why we still know her, because so many people were willing to write about her. In addition to the series of essays, in which you can learn more about Harriet Tubman, you can also explore her whole life history - we have a very comprehensive timeline. We also have an interactive calculator to figure out just how much we actually owe Harriet Tubman for her enslaved labor. We have poetry, we have a public haiku tribute. So the public is actually invited to submit a haiku in tribute to Harriet Tubman's bicentennial. It is a birthday celebration, so we're trying to celebrate her, and to show that is part of history, but it's also very much a history that is still very living, it's very present. I think we can think of our time in 2022 as a crossroads moment, where we could either go back in time to doing things in an oppressive way, or we can actually move forward towards a more equitable future that is based on a firmer foundation of justice for all. Harriet Tubman is somebody who can actually help us in terms of getting into the right direction. Dr. Janell Hobson is the editor of the Harriet Tubman Bicentennial Project out now in Ms. magazine, both online and in print, through March 10.  Our next guest is celebrating a milestone of her own. Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts has been writing professionally for roughly 20 years. She's published at least 15 works, teaches English and Black Studies at the Community College of Philadelphia, and is the founder of HeARTspace, a community to help those dealing with trauma via storytelling and the arts. To mark her 20-year career, she released her latest book at the start of Black History Month, titled Black Joy: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration. Throughout 36 autobiographical essays, Lewis-Giggetts explores the restorative strength of joy in Black culture, and the ways in which it can be used for both personal and communal healing. “You know, Black Joy kind of came out of my personal experience. It came out of me wrestling with what joy felt like in my body, going to therapy and my therapist, like, literally asking me, ‘What does joy feel like?'  And I, you know, being 40 some-odd-years-old and like, ‘I don't know.' And so beginning to unpack that work, and then using it, really, as an entry point for looking at how Black people in general have been able to use joy as a way to resist, but also, I think, to heal from some of the trauma and some of our historical and even present day experiences.” You make it a point in the beginning of the book to differentiate between happiness and joy. So to start off, how do you define joy, and especially Black joy? Absolutely. I think happiness is, you know, that moment - let's just say I'm on the roller coaster at Six Flags, and like, I'm excited, and I'm with my family, and I'm having a good time. It tends to just show up in particular moments. I think joy is something that is ever present, even if we don't feel it, so to speak. It is always accessible to us, if we know how to access it, right? It's like, you know, how does an enslaved person still laugh, when laughter literally could have been a potential for death? It doesn't mean that they were happy about their situation, it meant that there was an underlying, almost like a spiritual undercurrent. Black joy is simply all of that human stuff within the context and the experience of Black people in America, but also globally. And so Black joy looks a little different, because it lives in the same container, if you will, of grief and trauma and all of the other experiences that are maybe not the same as other groups.  You lay out early on that Black joy can be a “mechanism for resistance, a method of resilience and a master plan for restoration.” Can you elaborate on that a little more for me? Sure. I mean, Black joy as resistance, I think, is the catchphrase that we've been hearing especially over the last couple of years or so. I think what that just means is that in the midst of protests, in the midst of the fight for rights and equality, and equity, and all those things, there are also opportunities for our joy to stand as a way of saying, “I am human.”  It is a way to fight the dehumanization that comes with racism, and discrimination, and white supremacy, and all those kinds of things. Like the protests of summer 2020, there was two things happening there: there was the confrontations with police, there was the chanting, there was the faces we saw on the media - but then there were also dancing and singing. And in Philly, there was a couple who got married right in the middle [of the protest]. So there were these, you know, this undercurrent, as I said before, of joy that was ever present. But I think that it's also the way that Black folks have always healed. When we get to resilience and restoration, what I mean is that there has always been, especially somatically in our bodies, ways that we have been able to move that trauma out of us so we can live another day. So we can take care of our family. So we can do what we need to do. So it's a resistance, but it's also the way we have always healed. I like how you also pointed out that joy should be founded on self love and compassion. Why do you think that? I think the biggest thing is it spurs longevity. That fine line between happiness and joy that I talked about, it gets really gray if joy is only experienced on a moment-by-moment basis, or we can only feel it on a moment-by-moment basis. And I think having a foundation of self-compassion, of grace, of self-love, allows for you to be always aware of where joy is, even if you're grieving and not actively able to call it up, so to speak. You're aware that it's there. The only way you know that is if you are able to see yourself differently, and I think that's what I kind of get into, especially early on in the book. Like, I want Black folks to maybe eschew or get rid of the gaze of what maybe white people, or what the government, whoever else might be thinking, and focus internally, look at our community and say, “We love each other. We love us.” And in doing so, our joy becomes more prominent. And I feel like it will add to our movements, it will make our movements have more longevity. Even more so than what it already has. So I know you touched on it a little bit earlier, but how did you personally access or discover your joy? As I said, I had a therapist who asked me, like, “What does it feel like?” And I was like, “I don't know.” So I had to begin that work. And I tell the story in the book, that I just happened to be watching a very popular television show, and I was just grinning and laughing. I'm a storyteller, so I just was happy because or, you know, experiencing joy, I think, because I was excited about the characters and the way it was being written, and the layers, and all those kinds of things. And my husband walks in, and he's like, “Something weird is going on. Let me leave.” But in that moment, I think I'm self aware enough to say, “Wait a minute, my hands feel weird. My chest is heaving, like, I'm excited, I'm happy. Ah, okay. This is what joy feels like in my body.” And not so that I can run around, I guess, telling people that - although I guess that's what I'm doing in this book - but so that when I have, as I've had recently, back-to-back losses in my family, when I am experiencing frustration or anger at the Voting Rights Act not being passed, I can call upon [it]. It's like a screenshot or a snapshot, right, that I can remember what joy felt like in my body, and I can go get it - not so that I can push the pain aside, but so I can create some balance so that I can, again, live another day. I'm very sorry to hear about your losses. Now that you are able to more easily access your joy, what are some of the other ways that you nurture it and practice self-love and self-compassion? Did writing this book open up new ways for you to do that? I think one of the things is resting. I love the Nap Ministry that's online, and how she really emphasizes rest as a way to counter the colonization, white supremacy mindset that's out there. It's a form of defiance, right? [To think that] it's not something that you earn, it's something that is your right. And I feel like I think of joy in the same way, and I think of self-love in the same way. And so, for me, it's about my morning rituals, it's about my practices - you have meditation and prayer - it's about the ways I decide to say no. And I'm still working on it, but I try to be OK with saying no. And the way I snuggle with my daughter, and I look at her, and I see myself - the free version of myself - and I take that in and sit with it, so that it becomes one with me, right? Like, I then become just as free as she is, even though I have all the stuff and all the bags. So yeah, writing the book, I think helped me to explore additional ways, things that I wasn't doing beforehand that I do try to make a conscious effort to do now.  I feel like there are a lot of conversations going on right now about mental health and self-care and self-compassion. Is there anything that you feel is sort of missing from that conversation at the moment, or something that you would like to add to that conversation? I mean, I love the fact that we're talking about it more. I love that in a lot of ways we are removing the stigma of things like therapy or therapeutic interventions, or even medication, or any of that. I love that that's happening. I think there's some decolonization work that still has to happen. There's also issues around access and privilege. I recognize my privilege as someone who can go to a therapist every week - not everybody has access to health insurance, or access to that. And you can destigmatize it all you want, but if I can't get to it just because of economic reasons or whatever…that's a barrier that I think needs to be talked about even more. I know there are people talking about it, but like, even more, and I gravitate toward that, because it disproportionately affects Black and brown folks, you know? The people who are experiencing this generational trauma, if you will, as a result of white supremacist systems, also are being limited in being able to access one of the many ways [to address it] - which, by the way, is the reason why we've come up with our own tools, including joy, to heal. Because we didn't have access to that. So I think that's probably the conversation I would like to see more of. While you were writing this book, was there a part that was particularly special or therapeutic to you? I think the thread that moves me the most, when I think about the essays, are the ones where I talk about my grandmother, and my great grandmother, and just my ancestors in general. You know, it's easy - and necessary, in a lot of ways - to talk about the hardships and the trauma, and what maybe they didn't have access to, or didn't know. But what I loved was being able to explore what they did know, and what they passed down that wasn't trauma. The generational joy that they gave me, the ways to see the world. Writing about my grandmother, and how she traveled the world working for this family - but really retained her sense of self, right? She wasn't going to buy into any stereotypical images of who she should be as a caretaker for a prominent white family. She was very much herself, and taught me how to reinvent myself over and over again. So those were the stories I'm grateful to have written, that I had the chance to write.  Overall, what do you hope readers take away from your book? I hope that by reading my story, they will be able to turn inward and unpack their own story, and begin to think about, or figure out, what joy feels like in their own bodies. And, you know, begin to work at accessing it when they need it to counter the grief - or, you know, not even to counter, but to allow that joy to live alongside all the other emotions that they have. So, if people are doing that kind of work as they're processing my essays, then I think my job is done. Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts is the author of Black Joy: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration, out now on Gallery Books.  You've been listening to 51%. 51% is a national production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio. It's produced by me, Jesse King. Our executive producer is Dr. Alan Chartock, and our theme is “Lolita” by the Albany-based artist Girl Blue. A big thanks to Dr. Janell Hobson, Tracey Michae'l Lewis-Giggetts, and you for tuning in. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram @51percentradio. Let us know what you think or if you have a story you'd like to share as well. Until next week, I'm Jesse King for 51%.

This is an interview with Rev. Craig B. Mousin, an Adjunct Faculty member of the DePaul University College of Law and the Grace School of Applied Diplomacy.  This podcast argues that the Preamble to the Constitution invites you to add your voice to protecting and expanding voting rights to ensure the nation's promise of equality for all.  Since the Civil War, our nation has amended the United States Constitution at least once every fifty years to expand voting rights to persons previously excluded.  The summer of 2021 marks fifty years since the 26th Amendment lowered the voting age to 18.  Today, however, we face, renewed efforts to restrict voting rights through reluctance in Congress or state legislation making it more difficult to register and vote.  It is time to assemble with others to protect and expand voting rights through local and national action.  You can read the Constitution at: https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/Citations to Professor Akhil Amar are from his book, America's Constitution, A Biography, (Random House, NY, 2005), (states waiving restrictions, thus expanding the number of persons eligible to participate in the state ratification process of the Constitution: 7) (no amendment has restricted voting rights: 19) (union not a league or confederacy: 33) (immigrant signers of the Declaration of Independence and members of the First Congress and First Supreme Court: 164).  Information on the efforts to repeal state anti-black laws in the 19th Century can be found in Kate Masur, Until Justice Be Done, America's First Civil Rights Movement, From the Revolution to Reconstruction, (W.W. Norton & Company, N.Y., 2021) (black laws defined: 16-19) (William Lloyd Garrison and Frederick Douglass, 237-238).  For more information on Group Action for Peace, see: Robert Armbruster, “‘Working Within the System' Youths Press for Registration,” (The Record, August 24, 1970).To find additional information on the Helen C. Peirce School for International Studies, see:  http://peirce.cps.eduFor information on one historical assembly to protect the rights of freed black Chicagoans prior to the Civil War, see Craig B. Mousin, “A Clear View from the Prairie: Harold Washington and the People of Illinois Respond to Federal Encroachment of Human Rights,” 29 S. Ill. L. J. 285 (Fall, 2004/Winter, 2005),209-304.  https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2997657For a current example of urging Congress to provide the DACA students with a path to citizenship, over 500 college and university Presidents and Chancellors recently called upon Congress to legislate a “permanent roadmap to citizenship for undocumented youth and students.” see: https://www.presidentsalliance.org/press/statement-hanen-daca-decision-2021/  In addition to DACA recipients, John Washington on Lationo USA reports about a proposed New York City bill that would expand the right to vote in municipal elections to non-citizen residents.  You can find his story at: https://www.latinousa.org/2021/07/30/immigrantvoters/ For more information on Group Action for Peace, see: Robert Armbruster, “‘Working Within the System' Youths Press for Registration,” (The Record, (Hackensack, NJ), August 24, 1970).        

William Lloyd Garrison was an exceptional editor and abolitionist during the early 19th century bringing forth a strong opposition to the institution of slavery in America. His publication, The Liberator, used incredibly direct, inflammatory language to counter the aweful practices of and apathetic attitudes about slavery and the social conundrum that "peculiar institution" inflicted on the American way of life. Together with his friend, Wendell Phillips, William Lloyd Garrison managed to heighten the awareness for the evils of the slave trade in all of its forms and the continued absurdity of treating freed persons as second-class citizens. For his tireless efforts to face down the forces of hate and advance social integrity in America, he is considered a Hoss indeed! The Eagle Hoss & Hound podcast is a platform for respect. Respect for the Eagle - the individual with a service background (including spouses). Respect for the Hoss - the Social Integrity Hero from our American past. Plus, the Hound - the common #AmericanMutt - you and me. Follow @EagleIMBUED - J.D. Collier

In this John Brown birthday episode, Lou presents a reflection upon the "reunion" meeting at John Brown's farm that took place on July 4, 1860,  before the Brown family sold the property and relocated to California three years later.  Based on an account published in William Lloyd Garrison's The Liberator (July 27, 1860),  Lou reflects on this meeting--attended by as many as one thousand people--its leading spirits, its family significance, even the fact that Brown had both a grave mound and a grave marker.   As Lou points out, when this meeting took place,  only Brown was interred at the farm; the bodies of his sons Oliver and Watson, along with the bodies of many of his other Harper's Ferry raiders were not interred at the farm until  the last twenty years of the nineteenth century.  The July 4th 1860 meeting is a weighty and moving historical "snapshot"--the picture of a nation on the brink of civil conflict, a nation weighed down by injustice and the suffering of black millions at the hands of white supremacy, and the mediocrity of most of white society, including "moderate" anti-slavery people.  Quite in contrast the abolitionists stand out, and yet themselves are divided between pacifist "moral suasionists," and political abolitionists--militants who called for violence, and the significance of John Brown, buried beneath the fresh mound at North Elba, NY.   Yet, because of the ongoing struggle against racism, somehow the story of John Brown--in life and death--remains significant today, as it was in 1860.  This episode is introduced and closed by the wonderful song, "All the Brave Young Men," written and performed by Greg Artzner and Terry Leonino, known as Magpie.  You can find this song on Magpie's CD, "The Civil War: Songs & Stories Untold."  Also see Magpie's website at Magpiemusic.com.May 9, 2021 is John Brown's 221st birthday.  Hurrah for Old John Brown!

June 19, 2020 Keri and Carter discuss Juneteenth and the arguments that famous abolitionists made, fake news designed to denigrate the word "boogaloo," epistemological relativism, and Fulton County (Atlanta) DA Paul Howard's despicable double-standards. LINKS FROM THE SHOW AND CHAT (Courtesy NinjaKitty) Henry Highland Garnet (1843): https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/1843-henry-highland-garnet-address-slaves-united-states/ William Lloyd Garrison (1854): https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/185/civil-rights-and-conflict-in-the-united-states-selected-speeches/5061/no-compromise-with-the-evil-of-slavery-speech-1854/ Fredrick Douglas (July 5th, 1852): http://redandgreen.org/July_5th_Speech.htm Dr. William Allen on Unsafe Space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVhlA39foGQ&t=1s Atlanta prosecutor on Rolfe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K01B_hgipC8 Atlanta Police Blue Flu: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-atlanta-police-officers-suffer-blue-flu-pandemic-tonight-residents-on-their-own/ Unsafe Space [Deprogrammed] with Benjamin Boyce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnOR6BSrfX4 Seven Crowder serious rant on Rayshard Brooks fallout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrJHOcKQFi4 Unsafe Space Book Club: https://unsafespace.com/book-club/ NEXT MEETING: June 28th for "Ordinary Men" Gort's Merch O' The DayO: https://unsafespace.com/shop/#!/trigger+warning-A5cfae175f937640786921e4d?productType=812&sellable=jw2rExDVgwu13Oyq0gem-812-7&appearance=2 Catch Keri and Carter live every Monday and Friday at 11am PST for #Covfefe Break. Bring your questions, comments, and all manner of wrongthink! Thanks for watching! Please don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. Follow us on the following social media channels...at least until we get banned: Twitter: @unsafespace Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsafepage Instagram: @_unsafespace Gab: @unsafe Minds: @unsafe Parler: @unsafespace Telegram Chat: https://t.me/joinchat/H4OUclXTz4xwF9EapZekPg Pick up some Unsafe Space merch at unsafespace.com! YouTube link to video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/p5jwEB7ZvYc

It has been claimed that the Age of Jackson, the age in which democracy supposedly expanded to greater heights, is really the age of slavery and white supremacy. White racism in the early 19th century reached new depths and, with the presidency of Andrew Jackson, found new ways to manifest itself. By the time Jackson reached the White House, the United States' enslaved population had reached nearly 2 million.But slavery alone did not define this period, as anti-slavery forces formed and mobilized in bold new ways as well. This era coincided with the formation of state and national anti-slavery societies, the publication of William Lloyd Garrison's Liberator, large-scale slave uprisings, and the expansion of abolitionist efforts to awaken the nation's moral conscience. But beyond these means and movements, slaves in their every day lives continued to resist and rebel, demanding their freedom and their equal place in American society.Manisha Sinha joins me to help examine these complex issues and unpack this rich period.Manisha Sinha is the James L. and Shirley A. Draper Chair in American History at the University of Connecticut. She received her Ph.D. from Columbia University where her dissertation was nominated for the Bancroft Prize. Her most recent book, The Slave's Cause: A History of Abolition (Yale University Press, 2016) has won numerous awards, including the Frederick Douglass Book Prize, Best Book Prize by the Society for Historians of the Early American Republic, the James A. Rawley Award for the Best Book on Secession and the Sectional Crisis, and the Avery O. Craven Award from the Organization of American Historians.

Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America. Some Americans cling desperately to the myth that we are living in a post-racial society, that the election of the first Black president spelled the doom of racism. In fact, racist thought is alive and well in America – more sophisticated and more insidious than ever. And as award-winning historian Ibram X. Kendi argues in Stamped from the Beginning, if we have any hope of grappling with this stark reality, we must first understand how racist ideas were developed, disseminated, and enshrined in American society. In this deeply researched and fast-moving narrative, Kendi chronicles the entire story of anti-Black racist ideas and their staggering power over the course of American history. Stamped from the Beginning uses the life stories of five major American intellectuals to offer a window into the contentious debates between assimilationists and segregationists and between racists and antiracists. From Puritan minister Cotton Mather to Thomas Jefferson, from fiery abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison to brilliant scholar W.E.B. Du Bois to legendary anti-prison activist Angela Davis, Kendi shows how and why some of our leading proslavery and pro-civil rights thinkers have challenged or helped cement racist ideas in America. Featuring: Dr. Ibram X. Kendi Photo Credits: Dr. Kendi's website – https://www.ibramxkendi.com/ For More information: Dr. Ibram About the book: nationalbook.org The Heartbeat of Racism is Denial, Op-ed in New York Times The post Dr. Ibram X. Kendi – Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America (Encore Edition) appeared first on KPFA.