Podcasts about jim there

In The House today is Brad GushueWhat's Happening Around the Curling World?The curling world was shocked on November 9 to hear about the passing of curling writer TedWyman. We will do a tribute to Ted and hisoutstanding contribution to curling over the years.Yet another team is making a change in mid-season, this time it is Team Carruthers. What'shappening there?The second Grand Slam of the seasonconcluded in Nisku, AB this past weekend and we willreview everything that happened at the CoopCanadian Open4) (Jim) What's coming up this week…..we will take alook at the major curling events that will be started inthe next seven days………..2C) - Hot Rock Topics……..(Jim) There has been a lot of talkin recent years about how to attract a younger audience to acurling event……….Warren made an observation this pastweekend and will offer an idea of what might help to attractpeople under 40……D) - Mailbag……..(Jim) We will read you some commentsabout streaming from the Grand Slam along with a rant fromFace Book…..E) - Curling Moments to Remember……..A look intocurling's rich history……….Each week either Kevin or Warrenwill relate back to something that happened in curling's pastthat is always interesting…….Today Kevin will bring us a greatcurling moment…….. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with the writer of a great new book, “London After Midnight: The Lost Film,” a book about the classic lost Lon Chaney film.LINKS A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Daniel's Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/p/London-After-Midnight-The-Lost-Film-100075993768254/Buy the Book “London After Midnight: The Lost Film”: https://www.amazon.com/London-After-Midnight-Lost-Film/dp/1399939890Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTRANSCRIPTJohn: So, Daniel, when did you first become aware of London After Midnight? Daniel: I was about seven years old when I first stumbled into Lon Chaney through my love of all things Universal horror, and just that whole plethora of characters and actors that you just knew by name, but hadn't necessarily seen away from the many still photographs of Frankenstein, Dracula, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And the Phantom was the one to really spark my interest. But this was prior to eBay. I couldn't see the film of Lon Chaney's Phantom of the Opera for a year. So, I kind of had the ultimate build to books and documentaries, just teasing me, teasing me all the time. And when I eventually did watch a few documentaries, the one thing that they all had in common was the name Lon Chaney. I just thought I need to learn more about this character Lon Chaney, because he just found someone of superhuman proportions just who have done all of these crazy diverse characters. And, that's where London After Midnight eventually peeked out at me and, occupied a separate interest as all the Chaney characterizations do.John: So how did you get into the Universal films? Were you watching them on VHS? Were they on tv? Did the DVDs happen by then?Daniel: I was still in the VHS days. My dad is a real big fan of all this as well. So he first saw Bela Lugosi's Dracula, on TV when he was a kid. And prior to me being born he had amassed a huge VHS collection and a lot of those had Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, Henry Hull, Claude Rains, Vincent Price, what have you.And a lot of them were dedicated to Universal horrors. And as a young curious kid, my eyes eventually crossed these beautiful cases and I really wanted to watch them. I think my first one I ever watched was The Mummy's Tomb or Curse of the Mummy. And it's just grown ever since, really.John: You're starting at the lesser end of the Universal monsters. It's like someone's starting the Marx Brothers at The Big Store and going, "oh, these are great. I wonder if there's anything better?" Jim: Well, I kinda like the fact that you have come by this fascination, honestly, as my father would say. You sort of inherited the family business, if you will. The book is great. The book is just great. And I'll be honest, I had no, except for recording the novel that John wrote, I really had no frame of reference for London after Midnight.John: Well, Jim, were you a monster guy? Were you a Universal Monster kid?Jim: Oh yeah. I mean, I had all the models. I love all of that, and certainly knew about Lon Chaney as the Phantom of the Opera, as The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I knew he was the man with a thousand faces. I knew he, when he died, he wrote JR. on his makeup kit and gave it to his kid. So, I knew stuff. But London after Midnight I didn't know at all, except for the sort of iconic makeup and that image, which I was familiar with. What was the inspiration for you in terms of writing this book?Daniel: Like you say, I really had no immediate go-to reference for London after Midnight, away from one or two images in a book. Really clearly they were very impactful images of Chaney, skulking around the old haunted mansion with Edna Tichenor by his side with the lantern, the eyes, the teeth, the cloak, the top hat, the webs, everything. Pretty much everything that embodies a good atmospheric horror movie, but obviously we couldn't see it.So that is all its fangs had deepened itself into my bloodstream at that point, just like, why is it lost? Why can't I see it? And again, the term lost film was an alien concept to me at a young age. I've always been a very curious child. Anything that I don't know or understand that much, even things I do understand that well, I always have to try to find out more, 'cause I just can't accept that it's like a bookend process. It begins and then it ends. And that was the thing with London after Midnight. Everything I found in books or in little interviews, they were just all a bit too brief. And I just thought there has to be a deeper history here, as there are with many of the greatest movies of all time. But same with the movies that are more obscure. There is a full history there somewhere because, 'cause a film takes months to a year to complete.It was definitely a good challenge for me. When we first had our first home computer, it was one of those very few early subjects I was typing in like crazy to try to find out everything that I could. And, that all incubated in my little filing cabinet, which I was able to call upon years later.Some things which were redundant, some things which I had the only links to that I had printed off in advance quite, sensibly so, but then there were certain things that just had lots of question marks to me. Like, what year did the film perish? How did it perish? The people who saw the film originally?And unlike a lot of Chaney films, which have been covered in immense detail, London after Midnight, considering it's the most famous of all lost films, still for me, had major holes in it that I just, really wanted to know the answers to. A lot of those answers, eventually, I found, even people who knew and institutions that knew information to key events like famous MGM Fire, they were hard pressed to connect anything up, in regards to the film. It was like a jigsaw puzzle. I had all these amazing facts. However, none of them kind of made sense with each other.My favorite thing is researching and finding the outcomes to these things. So that's originally what spiraled me into the storm of crafting this, initial dissertation that I set myself, which eventually became so large. I had to do it as a book despite, I'd always wanted to do a book as a kid.When you see people that you idolize for some reason, you just want to write a book on them. Despite, there had been several books on Lon Chaney. But I just always knew from my childhood that I always wanted to contribute a printed volume either on Chaney or a particular film, and London after Midnight seemed to present the opportunity to me.I really just didn't want it to be a rehash of everything that we had seen before or read before in other accounts or in the Famous Monsters of Filmland Magazine, but just with a new cover. So, I thought I would only do a book if I could really contribute a fresh new perspective on the subject, which I hope hopefully did.John: Oh, you absolutely did. And this is an exhaustive book and a little exhausting. There's a ton of stuff in here. You mentioned Famous Monster of the Filmland, which is where I first saw that image. There's at least one cover of the magazine that used that image. And Forrest Ackerman had some good photos and would use them whenever he could and also would compare them to Mark the Vampire, the remake, partially because I think Carol Borland was still alive and he could interview her. And he talked about that remake quite a bit. But that iconic image that he put on the cover and whenever he could in the magazine-- Jim and I were talking before you came on, Daniel, about in my mind when you think of Lon Chaney, there's three images that come to mind: Phantom of the Opera, Quasimoto, and this one. And I think this one, the Man in the Beaver hat probably is the most iconic of his makeups, because, 'cause it is, it's somehow it got adopted into the culture as this is what you go to when it's a creepy guy walking around. And that's the one that everyone remembers. Do you have any idea, specifically what his process was for making that look, because it, it is I think ultimately a fairly simple design. It's just really clever.Daniel: Yes, it probably does fall into the category of his more simplistic makeups. But, again, Chaney did a lot of things simplistic-- today --were never seen back then in say, 1927. Particularly in the Phantom of the Opera's case in 1925, in which a lot of that makeup today would be done through CG, in terms of trying to eliminate the nose or to make your lips move to express dialogue. Chaney was very fortunate to have lived in the pantomime era, where he didn't have to rely on how his voice would sound, trying to talk through those dentures, in which case the makeup would probably have to have been more tamed to allow audio recorded dialogue to properly come through.But with regards to the beaver hat makeup, he had thin wires that fitted around his eyes to give it a more hypnotic stare. The teeth, which he had constructed by a personal dentist, eventually had a wire attached to the very top that held the corners of his mouth, opening to a nice curved, fixated, almost joker like grin.You can imagine with the monocles around his eyes, he was thankful there probably wasn't that much wind on a closed set, because he probably couldn't have closed his eyes that many times. But a lot of these things become spoken about and detailed over time with mythic status. That he had to have his eyes operated on to achieve the constant widening of his eyelids. Or the teeth -- he could only wear the teeth for certain periods of time before accidentally biting his tongue or his lips, et cetera. But Chaney certainly wasn't a sadist, with himself, with his makeups. He was very professional. Although he did go through undoubtedly a lot of discomfort, especially probably the most, explicit case would be for the Hunchback of Notre Dame, in which his whole body is crooked down into a stooped position.But, with London After Midnight, I do highly suspect that the inspiration for that makeup in general came from the Dracula novel. And because MGM had not acquired the rights to the Dracula novel, unlike how Universal acquired the rights of the Hunchback or, more importantly, Phantom of the Opera, by which point Gaston Leroux was still alive.It was just a loose adaptation of Dracula. But nevertheless, when you read the description of Dracula in Bram Stoker's novel, he does bear a similarity to Chaney's vampire, in which it's the long hair, a mouth full of sharp teeth, a ghastly pale palor and just dressed all in black and carries around a lantern.Whereas Bela Lugosi takes extraordinary leaps and turns away from the Stoker novel. But it must have definitely had an impact at the time, enough for MGM to over-market the image of Chaney's vampire, which only appears in the film for probably just under four minutes, compared to his detective disguise, which is the real main character of the film.Although the thing we all wanna see is Cheney moving about as the vampire and what facial expressions he pulled. It's just something that we just want to see because it's Lon Chaney.John: Right. And it makes you wonder if he had lived and had gotten to play Dracula, he kind of boxed himself into a corner, then if he'd already used the look from the book, you wonder what he would've come up with, if Lugosi hadn't done it, and if Chaney had had been our first Dracula.Jim: You know, the other thing that I think of strictly like through my actor filter is here's a guy who -- take Hunchback or Phantom or even this thing -- whatever process he went through to put that makeup on, you know, was hours of work, I'm sure. Hunchback several hours of work to get to that, that he did himself, and then they'd film all day.So, on top of, I mean, I just think that that's like, wow, when you think about today where somebody might go into a makeup chair and have two or three people working on them to get the look they want. Even if it took a few hours, that person is just sitting there getting the makeup done. He's doing all of this, and then turns in a full day, uh, in front of the cameras, which to me is like, wow, that's incredible.Daniel: Definitely, it's like two jobs in one. I imagine for an actor it must be really grueling in adapting to a makeup, especially if it's a heavy makeup where it covers the whole of your head or crushes down your nose, changes your lips, the fumes of chemicals going into your eyes.But then by the end of it, I imagine you are quite exhausted from just your head adapting to that. But then you have to go out and act as well. With Chaney, I suppose he could be more of a perfectionist than take as much time as he wanted within reason. And then once he came to the grueling end of it all, he's actually gotta go out and act countless takes. Probably repair a lot of the makeup as well after, after a couple of takes, certainly with things like the Hunchback or the Phantom of the Opera.John: And, you know, it's not only is he doing the makeup and acting, but in, you know, not so much in London After Midnight, but in Phantom of the Opera, he is quite athletic. When the phantom moves, he really moves. He's not stooped. He's got a lot of energy to him and he's got a makeup on that, unlike the Quasimoto makeup, what he's attempting to do with the phantom is, reductive. He's trying to take things away from his face.Daniel: Mm-hmm.John: And he's using all the tricks he knows and lighting to make that happen, but that means he's gotta hit particular marks for the light to hit it just right. And for you to see that his face is as, you know, skull-like as he made it. When you see him, you know, in London After Midnight as the professor inspector character, he has got a normal full man's face. It's a real face. Much like his son, he had a kind of a full face and what he was able to do with a phantom and take all that away, and be as physical as he was, is just phenomenal. I mean, he was a really, besides the makeup, he was a really good actor.Daniel: Oh, definitely. Jim: I agree with that completely. I kind of in what I watched, I wonder if he was the makeup artist, but not the actor and he did exactly the same makeup on somebody else. And so we had the same image. If those things would've resonated with us the way they do today. I think it had everything to do with who he was and his abilities in addition to the incredible makeup. He was just a tremendous performer.Daniel: Absolutely. He was a true multitasker. In his early days of theater, he was not only an actor, but he was a choreographer. He had a lot of jobs behind the scenes as well. Even when he had become a star in his own time, he would still help actors find the character within them. like Norma Sheera, et cetera. People who were kind of new to the movie making scene and the directors didn't really have that much patience with young actors or actresses. Whereas Chaney, because of his clout in the industry, no one really interfered with Chaney's authority on set. But he would really help actors find the character, find the emotion, 'cause it was just all about how well you translate it over for the audience, as opposed to the actor feeling a certain way that convinces themselves that they're the character. Chaney always tried to get the emotions across to the audience. Patsy Ruth Miller, who played Esemerelda in in the Hunchback, said that Chaney directed the film more than the director actually did.The director was actually even suggested by Chaney. So, Chaney really had his hands everywhere in the making of a film. And Patsy Ruth Miller said the thing that she learned from him was that it's the actress's job to make the audience feel how the character's meant to be feeling, and not necessarily the actor to feel what they should be feeling based on the script and the settings and everything.So I think, that's why Chaney in particular stands out, among all of the actors of his time.John: I think he would've transitioned really well into sound. I think, he had everything necessary to make that transition.Jim: There's one sound picture with him in it, isn't there, doesn't he? Doesn't he play a ventriloquist? John: I believe so.Daniel: Yes, it was a remake of The Unholy Three that he had made in 1925 as Echo the ventriloquist, and the gangster. And yes, by the time MGM had decided to pursue talkies -- also, funny enough, they were one of the last studios to transition to, just because they were the most, one, probably the most dominant studio in all of Hollywood, that they didn't feel the pressure to compete with the burgeoning talkie revolution.So they could afford to take their time, they could release a talkie, but then they could release several silent films and the revenue would still be amazing for the studio. Whereas other studios probably had to conform really quick just because they didn't have the star system, that MGM shamelessly flaunted. And several Chaney films had been transitioned to sound at this point with or without Chaney. But for Chaney himself, because he himself was the special effect, it was guaranteed to be a winner even if it had been an original story that isn't as remembered today strictly because people get to hear the thing that's been denied them for all this time, which is Chaney's voice. And he would've transitioned very easily to talkies is because he had a very rich, deep voice, which, coming from theater, he had to have had, in terms of doing dialogue. He wasn't someone like a lot of younger actors who had started out predominantly in feature films who could only pantomime lines. Chaney actually knew how to deliver dialogue, so it did feel natural and it didn't feel read off the page.And he does about five voices in The Unholy Three. So MGM was truly trying to market, his voice for everything that they could. As Mrs. O'Grady, his natural voice, he imitates a parrot and a girl. And yeah, he really would've flourished in the sound era. Jim: Yeah. John: Any surprises, as it sounds like you were researching this for virtually your whole life, but were there any surprises that you came across, as you really dug in about the film?Daniel: With regards to London after Midnight, the main surprise was undoubtedly the -- probably the star chapter of the whole thing -- which is the nitrate frames from an actual destroyed print of the film itself, which sounds crazy to even being able to say it. But, yeah the nitrate frames themselves presented a quandary of questions that just sent me into a whole nother research mode trying to find out where these impossible images came from, who they belonged to, why they even existed, why they specifically existed.Because, looking for something that, you know, you are told doesn't exist. And then to find it, you kind of think someone is watching over you, planting this stuff as though it's the ultimate tease. To find a foreign movie poster for London After Midnight would be one thing, but to find actual pieces of the lost film itself. It was certainly the most out of body experience I've ever had. Just to find something that I set out to find, but then you find it and you still can't believe that you've actually found it.John: How did you find it?Daniel: I had connections with a few foreign archives who would befriend me and took to my enthusiasm with the silent era, and specifically Chaney and all the stars connected to Chaney films.And, quite early on I was told that there were a few photo albums that had various snippets of silent films from Chaney. They didn't really go into what titles these were, 'cause they were just all a jumble. All I knew is that they came from (garbled) widow. And he had acquired prints of the whole films from various, I suppose, junk stores in Spain.But not being a projectionist, he just purely took them at the face value that he just taken the images and snipping them up and putting them in photo albums, like how you would just do with photographs. And then the rest of the material was sadly discarded by fire. So, all we were left with were these snipped relics, survivors almost to several Chaney lost films. Some of them not lost, but there were films like The Phantom of the Opera in there, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mockery, The Unknown. But then there were several lost films such as London After Midnight, the Big City, Thunder. And All the Brothers were Valiant, which are mainly other than Thunder are all totally complete lost films.So, to find this little treasure trove, it was just finding out what the images meant and connecting them up, trying to put them in some sort of chronological scholarly order. Grueling, but it was very fun at the same time. And because I had identified myself with all of these surviving production stills from the film -- a lot of them, which formed the basis of the 2002 reconstruction by Turner Classic Movies -- it didn't take me too long to identify what scenes these surviving nitrate frames were from. But there were several frames which had sets that I recognized and costumes that I recognized, but in the photographic stills, they don't occupy the same space at the same time. So, it's like the two separate elements had crossed over. So that left me with a scholarly, question of what I was looking at. I was able to go back and, sort of rectify certain wrongs that have been accepted throughout the sixties as being the original, say, opening to London after Midnight. So I've, been able to disprove a few things that have made the film, I suppose, a bit more puzzling to audiences. Some audiences didn't really get what the plot was to begin with. So, it was nice to actually put a bit more order to the madness finally.John: At what point did you come across the original treatment and the script?Daniel: The treatment and the script, they came from a private collector who had bought them at auction a number of years ago who I was able to thankfully contact, and they still had the two documents in question. I had learned through Philip J Riley's previous books on London after Midnight that he had the two latter drafts of the script, the second edition and the third draft edition.And, again, the question of why and where. I just always wondered where that first draft of the script was, hoping it would contain new scenes, and open new questions for me and to study. And once I've managed to find those two documents, they did present a lot of new, perspectives and material that added to the fuller plot of the original hypnotist scenario, as opposed to the shortened, time efficient London After Midnight film that was ultimately delivered to audiences. So again, it helped to put a little bit more order to the madness.Jim: You found an actual piece of the film that you were able to, somebody got images from it? And then you found the scripts? But the images are terrific and they're all in your book. They came from what exactly?Daniel: The just below 20 images of the film came from originally a distribution print, a Spanish distribution print, from about 1928. Originally, they were on 35 millimeter indicating that they were from the studio and as is with a lot of silent films that have been found in foreign archives.Normally when a film is done with its distribution, it would have to be returned to the original studio to be destroyed, except for the original negative and a studio print, because there is no reason why a studio would need to keep the thousands of prints when they have the pristine copy in their vault. But, in a lot of smaller theater cases, in order to save money on the postage of the shipping, they would just basically declare that they had destroyed the film on the studio's behalf. There was no record system with this stuff and that's how a lot of these films ended up in the basements of old theaters, which are eventually when they closed, the assets were sold off to collectors or traveling showmen. And eventually these films found their ways into archives or again, private collections. Some of which people know what they have.A lot of times they don't know what they have because they're more obsessed with, naturally, more dedicated to preserving the films of their own culture that was shown at the time, as opposed to a foreign American title, which they probably assume they already have a copy of. But it's how a lot of these films get found.And, with the London After Midnight, example, there were the images that I found spanned the entire seven reels, because they came from different points in the film. It wasn't a single strip of film, of a particular scene. Having thankfully the main source that we have for London After Midnight is the cutting continuity, which is the actual film edited down shot for shot, length for length.And it describes, briefly, although descriptive enough, what is actually in each and every single shot of the film. And comparing the single frame images from the film with this document, I was able to identify at what point these frames came from during the film, which again spanned the entire seven reels, indicating that a complete seven reel version of the film had gotten out under the studio system at one point.As is the case, I'm assuming, 'cause these came from the same collection, I'm assuming it was the same with the other lost Chaney films that again, sadly only survive in snippet form.John: It's like somebody was a collector and his wife said, "well, we don't have room for all this. Just take the frames you like and we'll get rid of the rest of it." So, you mentioned in passing the 2002 reconstruction that Turner Classic Movies did using the existing stills. I don't know if they were working from any of the scripts or not. That was the version I originally saw when I was working on writing, those portions of The Misers Dream that mentioned London After Midnight. Based on what you know now, how close is that reconstruction and where do you think they got it right and where'd they get it wrong?Daniel: The 2002, reconstruction, while a very commendable production, it does stray from the original edited film script. Again, the problem that they clearly faced on that production is that there were not enough photographed scenes to convey all the photographed scenes from the film. So what they eventually fell into the trap of doing was having to reuse the same photograph to sometimes convey two separate scenes, sometimes flipping the image to appear on the opposite side of the camera. And, because of the certain lack of stills in certain scenes cases, they had to rewrite them.And sometimes a visual scene had to have been replaced with an inter-title card, merely describing what had happened or describing a certain period in time, as opposed to showing a photograph of what we're meant to be seeing as opposed to just reading. So, they did the best with what they had.But since then, there have been several more images crop up in private collections or in the archives. So, unless a version of the film gets found, it's certainly an endeavor that could be revisited, I think, and either do a new visual reconstruction of sort, or attempt some sort remake of the film even.Jim: That's an idea. John: They certainly have the materials to do that. I've got an odd question. There's one famous image, a still image from the film, showing Chaney as Professor Burke, and he is reaching out to the man in the beaver hat whose back is to us. Is that a promo photo? Spoiler alert, Burke is playing the vampire in the movie. He admits that that's him. So, he never would've met the character. What is the story behind that photo?Daniel: There are actually three photographs depicting that, those characters that you described. There are the two photographs which show Chaney in the Balfor mansion seemingly directing a cloaked, top hatted figure with long hair, with its back towards us. And then there is another photograph of Chaney in the man in the beaver hat disguise with a seemingly twin right beside him outside of a door.Basically the scenes in the film in which Chaney appear to the Hamlin residents, the people who are being preyed upon by the alleged vampires, the scenes where Chaney and the vampire need to coexist in the same space or either appear to be in the same vicinity to affect other characters while at the same time interrogating others, Chaney's character of Burke employs a series of assistants to either dress up as vampires or at certain times dress up as his version of the vampire to parade around and pretend that they are the man in the beaver hat. Those particular shots, though, the vampire was always, photographed from behind rather than the front.The very famous scene, which was the scene that got first got me interested in London After Midnight, in which the maidm played by Polly Moran is in the chair shrieking at Chaney's winged self, hovering over her. It was unfortunate to me to realize that that was actually a flashback scene told from the maid's perspective.And by the end of the film, the maid is revealed to be an informant of Burke, a secret detective also. So, it's really a strong suspension of disbelief has to be employed because the whole scene of Chaney chasing the maid through the house and appearing under the door, that was clearly just the MGMs marketing at work just to show Chaney off in a bizarre makeup with a fantastic costume.Whereas he is predominantly the detective and the scenes where he's not needed to hypnotize a character in the full vampire makeup, he just employs an assistant who parades around in the house as him, all the times with his back turned so that the audience can't latch on as to who the character actually is, 'cause it must have posed quite a fun confusion that how can Chaney be a detective in this room where the maid has just ran from the Vampire, which is also Chaney?John: Yeah, and it doesn't help that the plot is fairly convoluted anyway, and then you add that layer. So, do you think we'll ever see a copy of it? Do you think it's in a basement somewhere?Daniel: I've always personally believed that the film does exist. Not personally out of just an unfounded fanboy wish, but just based on the evidence and examples of other films that have been found throughout time. Metropolis being probably the most prominent case. But, at one point there was nothing on London After Midnight and now there is just short of 20 frames for the film. So, if that can exist currently now in the year 2023, what makes us think that more footage can't be found by, say, 2030? I think with fans, there's such a high expectation that if it's not found in their own lifetime or in their own convenience space of time, it must not exist. There's still a lot of silent lost treasures that just have not been found at all that do exist though. So, with London After Midnight, from a purely realistic standpoint, I've always theorized myself that the film probably does exist in an archive somewhere, but it would probably be a very abridged, foreign condensed version, as opposed to a pristine 35-millimeter print that someone had ripped to safety stock because they knew in the future the film would become the most coveted of all lost films. So, I do believe it does exist. The whole theory of it existing in a private collection and someone's waiting to claim the newfound copyright on it, I think after December of last year, I think it's finally put that theory to rest. I don't think a collector consciously knows they have a copy of it. So, I think it's lost until found personally, but probably within an archive.Jim: Lost until found. That's a great title for a book. I like that a lot. What do you think of the remake, Mark of the Vampire and in your opinion, what does it tell us about, London After Midnight?Daniel: Well, Mark of the Vampire came about again, part of the Sound Revolution. It was one of those because it was Chaney and Todd Browning's most successful film for the studio. And Browning was currently, being held on a tight leash by MGM because of his shocking disaster film Freaks, I suppose they were a little bit nervous about giving him the reign to do what he wanted again. So, looking through their backlog of smash silent hits, London After Midnight seemed the most logical choice to remake, just simply because it was their most, successful collaboration. Had it have been The Unholy Three, I'm sure? Oh no, we already had The Unholy Three, but had it have been another Browning Chaney collaboration, it might have been The Unknown, otherwise. So, I suppose that's why London After Midnight was selected and eventually turned into Mark of the Vampire. The story does not stray too much from London After Midnight, although they seem to complicate it a little bit more by taking the Burke vampire character and turning it this time into three characters played by three different actors, all of which happened to be in cahoots with one another in trying to solve an old murder mystery.It's very atmospherical. You can definitely tell it's got Todd Browning signature on it. It's more pondering with this one why they just did not opt to make a legit, supernatural film, rather than go in the pseudo vampire arena that they pursued in 1927. Where audiences had by now become accustomed to the supernatural with Dracula and Frankenstein in 1931, which no longer relied on a detective trying to find out a certain mystery and has to disguise themselves as a monster.The monster was actually now a real thing in the movies. So I think if Bela Lugosi had been given the chance to have played a real Count Mora as a real vampire, I think it would've been slightly better received as opposed to a dated approach that was clearly now not the fashionable thing to do.I suppose again, because Browning was treading a very thin line with MGM, I suppose he couldn't really stray too far from the original source material. But I find it a very atmospherical film, although I think the story works better as a silent film than it does as a sound film, because there's a lot of silent scenes in that film, away from owls, hooting and armadillos scurrying about and winds. But I do think, based on things like The Cat and The Canary from 1927 and The Last Warning, I just think that detective sleuth with horror overtones serves better to the silent world than it does the sound world away from the legit, supernatural.John: So, if Chaney hadn't died, do you think he would have played Dracula? Do you think he would've been in Freaks? Would Freaks have been more normalized because it had a big name in it like that?Daniel: It would've been interesting if Chaney had played in Freaks. I think because Todd Browning used the kinds of individuals that he used for Freaks, maybe Chaney would've, for a change, had been the most outta place.John: Mm-hmm.Daniel: I do think he might have played Dracula. I think Universal would've had a hell of a time trying to get him over because he had just signed a new contract with MGM, whereas Todd Browning had transferred over to Universal by 1930 and really wanted to make Dracula for many years and probably discussed it with Chaney as far back as 1920.But certainly MGM would not have permitted Chaney to have gone over to Universal, even for a temporary period, without probably demanding a large piece of the action, in a financial sense, because Universal had acquired the rights to Dracula at this point. And, based on the stage play that had, come out on Broadway, it was probably assured that it was going to be a giant moneymaker, based on the success of the Dracula play.But because of Cheney's, status as a, I suppose retrospectively now, as a horror actor, he was probably the first person to be considered for that role by Carl Laemmle, senior and Junior for that matter. And Chaney gone by 1930, it did pose a puzzle as to who could take over these kinds of roles.Chaney was probably the only one to really successfully do it and make the monster an actual box office ingredient more than any other actor at that time, as he did with. Phantom, Blind Bargain and London After Midnight. So, I think to have pursued Chaney for a legit, supernatural film would've had enormous possibilities for Browning and Chaney himself.You can kind of see a trend, a trilogy forming, with Browning, from London After Midnight, in which he incorporates things he used in Dracula in London After Midnight. So, he kind of had this imagery quite early on. So, to go from – despite it's not in that order -- but to have London After Midnight, Mark of the Vampire, and he also did Dracula, he clearly was obsessed with the story. And I think Chaney was probably the, best actor for someone like Browning who complimented his way of thinking and approach to things like silence. As opposed to needing dialogue all the time, loud commotions. So, I think they dovetailed each other quite well, and that's why their ten year director actor relationship was as groundbreaking as it was.Jim: If the film does surface, if we find the film, what do you think people, how are they gonna react to the movie when they see it? What do you think? What's gonna be the reaction if it does surface?Daniel: Well, the lure of London After Midnight, the power in the film is its lost status rather than its widespread availability. I think it could never live up to the expectation that we've built up in our heads over the past 40 to 60 years. It was truly people, fans like Forrest J Ackerman that introduced and reignited the interest in Chaney's career by the late fifties and 1960s. That's when London After Midnight started to make the rounds in rumor, the rumors of a potential print existing, despite the film had not long been destroyed at that point. So, it was always a big mystery. There were always people who wanted to see the film, but with no access to home video, or et cetera, the only way you could probably see the film would've been at the studio who held everything. And, by the time the TV was coming out, a lot of silent films didn't make it to TV. So again, it has just germinated in people's heads probably in a better form than what they actually remembered. But, the true reality of London After Midnight is one more closer to the ground than it is in it's people are probably expecting to see something very supernatural on par with Dracula, whereas it's more so a Sherlock Holmes story with mild horrorish overtones to it that you can kind of see better examples of later on in Dracula in 1930 and in Mark of the Vampire.It's a film purely, I think for Lon Chaney fans. For myself, having read everything I can on the film, everything I've seen on the film, I personally love silent, detective stories, all with a touch of horror. So, I personally would know what I am going in to see. I'm not going in to see Chaney battling a Van Helsing like figure and turn to dust at the very end or turning to a bat. I'm going to see a detective melodrama that happens to have what looks like a vampire. So, it certainly couldn't live up to the expectations in people's minds and it's probably the only film to have had the greatest cheapest, marketing in history, I would think. It's one of those films, if it was discovered, you really would not have to do much marketing to promote it.It's one of those that in every fanzine, magazine, documentary referenced in pop. It has really marketed itself into becoming what I always call the mascot of the genre. There are other more important lost films that have been lost to us. The main one again, which has been found in its more complete form, was Metropolis, which is a better movie.But unlike Metropolis, London After Midnight has a lot more famous ingredients to it. It has a very famous director. It has a very famous actor whose process was legendary even during then. And it's actually the only film in which he actually has his make-up case make a cameo appearance by the very end. And it goes on the thing that everyone in every culture loves, which is the vampirism, the dark tales and folklore. So, when you say it, it just gets your imagination going. Whereas I think if you are watching it, it's probably you'll be looking over the projector to see if something even better is going to happen.The film had its mixed reactions when it originally came out. People liked it because it gave them that cheap thrill of being a very atmospherical, haunted house with the creepy figures of Chaney walking across those dusty hallways. But then the more important story is a murder mystery.It's not Dracula, but it has its own things going for it. I always kind of harken it back to the search for the Lochness Monster or Bigfoot. It has more power in your mind than it does in an aquarium or in a zoo. Hearing someone say that they think they saw something moving around in Lochness, but there's no photographic evidence, you just have the oral story, that is much more tangible in a way than actually seeing it in an aquarium where you can take it for granted. And it's the same with London After Midnight, and I think that's why a lot of hoaxster and pranksters tend to say that they have seen London After Midnight more than any other lost film.Jim: For a film that I would say the majority of the world does not have any frame of reference, and I'm using myself as the sort of blueprint for that, no frame of reference for this film. That image is iconic in a way that has been, I mean, it at first glance could be Jack the Ripper. I was talking to John before we started the podcast, once I locked in on that image, then I started to think, oh, the ghosts in Disney's Haunted Mansion, there's a couple of ghosts that have elements of that. I mean, it was so perfectly done, even though we don't, I bet you nine out ten people don't know the title London After Midnight, but I bet you seven outta ten people know this image.Daniel: Definitely, it has certainly made its mark on pop culture, again, I think because I think it's such a beautiful, simplistic design. Everything from the simplistically [garbled] to the bulging eyes and the very nice top hat as well, which is in itself today considered a very odd accessory for a grotesque, vampire character.But it's one of those things that has really carried over. It's influenced what the movies and artists. It was one of the influences for the Babadook creation for that particular monster. It was an influence on the Black Phone. It's just a perfect frame of reference for movie makers and sculptors and artists to keep taking from.John: Yep. It's, it'll live long beyond us. Daniel, one last question. I read somewhere or heard somewhere. You're next gonna tackle James Whale, is that correct? Daniel: James Whale is a subject, again, coming from, I happen to come from the exact same town that he was born and raised in, in Dudley, England. So, it's always been a subject close to home for me, which is quite convenient because I love his movies. So, I'm hoping to eventually, hopefully plan a documentary feature on him, based on a lot of family material in the surrounding areas that I was able to hunt down, and forgotten histories about him and just put it together in some form, hopefully in the future.John: That would be fantastic, and we'll have you back at that point.Jim: So, let's pretend for a minute that the audience is me, and they'd have absolutely no idea who James Whale is or what he's done. Just for a minute, let's pretend.John: Pretend that you don't know that?Jim: Yeah.Daniel: James Whale is the most known for his work for directing Frankenstein with Boris Karloff in 1931. But he also directed probably some of the most important horror films that have ever existed in the history of motion pictures. The Old Dark House, which can be cited with its very atmospherical, and black comedy tones, The Invisible Man with Claude Rains and Gloria Stewart in 1933. And, the most important one, which is probably the grand jewel in the whole of the Universal Monsters Empire, which is Bride of Frankenstein in 1935, which is the ultimate, example of everything that he had studied, everything that he'd learned with regards to cinema and comedy, life and death, and just making a very delicious cocktail of a movie in all of its black comedy, horrific, forms that we're still asking questions about today. One of his first films that he did was for Howard Hughes Hell's Angels, in which -- because he'd coming over from theater -- when again, films in America were taken off with the sound revolution. They all of a sudden needed British directors to translate English dialogue better than the actors could convey.So, James Whale was one of many to be taken over to America when he had a hit play called Journeys End, which became the most successful war play at that point. And he did his own film adaptation of Journeys End. He also did a really remarkable film called Showboat, which is another very iconic film.And again, someone with James Whale's horror credentials, you just think, how could someone who directed Frankenstein directed Showboat? But, clearly a very, very talented director who clearly could not be pigeonholed at the time as a strictly horror director, despite it is the horror films in which he is remembered for, understandably so, just because they contain his very individualistic wit and humor and his outlooks on life and politics. And being an openly gay director at the time, he really was a force unto himself. He was a very modern man even then.

Encore from 12/19/2023 Patrick engages in thought-provoking conversations with his listeners on various topics. From discussing the intricacies of Catholic rights and sacraments, to addressing the role of lay people in evangelization, to navigating the complexities of Pope Francis' decisions, Patrick Madrid provides insight and clarity on pressing issues in the Catholic Church. Connor - Can I confirm my child in the Eastern Rite then attend a Latin Rite Church? Michael - I feel similarly to the caller about evangelization as a lay person. What do you think about the Catechism saying that lay people should evangelize? Jim - There is a lot of controversy with Pope Francis recently with the blessing of gay couples. I think Pope Francis has some wisdom in what he is doing. Giving them a blessing reminds them that they are in sin, in the same way that we get a blessing when we can't receive communion. Rick - I disagree that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have a lot to say. I feel they have a lot of good and they study the bible. Pat - When you have Mass intentions said for someone who has passed away, how do you know how effective the Masses are? Joseph - I go to daily Mass and see a crossing guard. I met her in a store and found out she was a Lutheran. What can I say to her to help her into the Catholic Faith? Pita - I was not married in the Church, but am Catholic. If I go to confession, can I receive the Eucharist? (34:20) Alison - IVF seems like it is fine since God is making life from it, so shouldn't it be okay? (43:56)

Patrick engages in thought-provoking conversations with his listeners on various topics. From discussing the intricacies of Catholic rights and sacraments, to addressing the role of lay people in evangelization, to navigating the complexities of Pope Francis' decisions, Patrick Madrid provides insight and clarity on pressing issues in the Catholic Church. Connor - Can I confirm my child in the Eastern Rite then attend a Latin Rite Church? Michael - I feel similarly to the caller about evangelization as a lay person. What do you think about the Catechism saying that lay people should evangelize? Jim - There is a lot of controversy with Pope Francis recently with the blessing of gay couples. I think Pope Francis has some wisdom in what he is doing. Giving them a blessing reminds them that they are in sin, in the same way that we get a blessing when we can't receive communion. Rick - I disagree that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have a lot to say. I feel they have a lot of good and they study the bible. Pat - When you have Mass intentions said for someone who has passed away, how do you know how effective the Masses are? Joseph - I go to daily Mass and see a crossing guard. I met her in a store and found out she was a Lutheran. What can I say to her to help her into the Catholic Faith? Pita - I was not married in the Church, but am Catholic. If I go to confession, can I receive the Eucharist? (34:20) Alison - IVF seems like it is fine since God is making life from it, so shouldn't it be okay? (43:56)

"No, Pete is not the new Jim. The only we have in common is that neither of us wants to sit on Meredith's face. And if that makes him the new Jim, then every human being in the world is the new Jim" There's some new guys in The Office—this week we're taking about Pete and Clark! We dive into their introduction in season 9, Pete and Erin's romance, Clark's pursuit of a sales job, and a lot more! And of course we also cover all the Movembers, Kobyashi Marus, and Dothraki conversations that go into their time on the show. Then in the Conference Room we revisit a voicemail from our last episode answer some Ordinary Things questions about being late to trends, and close with some recommendations for things to watch and listen to. And stay tuned for an announcement about our next Patreon episode!  Where's the Quiznos? You're the Quiznos. This episode is brought to you by Factor! Head to factormeals.com/scott50 and use code scott50 to get 50% off. That's code scott50 at factormeals.com/scott50 to get 50% off! Support our show and become a member of Scott's Tots on Patreon! For only $5/month, Tots get ad-free episodes plus exclusive access to our monthly Mailbag episodes where we casually pick through every single message/question/comment we receive. We also have Season 2 of our Ted Lasso podcast Biscuits with the Boss available to our Patrons, as well as our White Lotus Christmas Special. Oh, and Tots get access to exclusive channels on our Discord. On top of that, a portion of all show proceeds are donated every month to organizations that help fund education opportunities for minority students. Help us serve the mission that Michael Scott could not. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncFy1zRA9HM 28 DAYS LATER Written by Alex Garland CLOSE ON A MONITOR SCREEN: Images of stunning violence. Looped. Soldiers in a foreign war shoot an unarmed civilian at point- blank range; a man is set on by a frenzied crowd wielding clubs and machetes; a woman is necklaced while her killers cheer and howl. Pull back to reveal that we are seeing one of many screens in a bank of monitors, all showing similar images... Then revealing that the monitors are in a... INT. SURGICAL CHAMBER - NIGHT ...surgical chamber. And watching the screens is a... ...chimp, strapped to an operating table, with its skull dissected open, webbed in wires and monitoring devices, muzzled with a transparent guard. Alive. Behind the surgical chamber, through the wide doorframe, we can see a larger laboratory beyond. INT. BRIGHT CORRIDOR - NIGHT A group of black-clad ALF Activists, all wearing balaclavas, move down a corridor. They carry various gear - bag, bolt cutters. As they move, one Activist reaches up to a security camera and sprays it black with an aerosol paint can. INT. LABORATORY - NIGHT The Activists enter the laboratory. CHIEF ACTIVIST Fucking hell... The Chief Activist takes his camera off his shoulder and starts taking photos. The room is huge and long, and darkened except for specific pools of light. Partially illuminated are rows of cages with clear perspex doors. They run down either side of the room. In the cages are chimpanzees. 2. Most are in a state of rabid agitation, banging and clawing against the perspex, baring teeth through foam-flecked mouths. They reach the far end of the lab, where on a huge steel operating table they see the dissected chimp. FEMALE ACTIVIST Oh God... The dissected chimp's eyes flick to the Activists. Blood wells from around the exposed brain tissue. Tears starts to roll down the Female Activist's cheeks. CHIEF ACTIVIST (to Female Activist) Keep your shit together. If we're going to get them out of here... The Finnish Activist is checking the perspex cages. FINNISH ACTIVIST I can pop these, no problem. CHIEF ACTIVIST So get to it. The Finnish Activist raises his crowbar and sticks it around the edge of one of the doors - about to prise it open. At the moment, the doors to the laboratory bang open. The Activists all turn. Standing at the entrance is the Scientist. A pause. The Scientist jumps to a telephone handset on the wall and shouts into the receiver. SCIENTIST Security! We have a break-in! Get to sector... A hand slams down the disconnect button. SCIENTIST ...nine. The Chief Activist plucks the receiver from the Scientist's hands, and then rips the telephone from the wall. A beat. 3. SCIENTIST I know who you are, I know what you think you're doing, but you have to listen to me. You can't release these animals. CHIEF ACTIVIST If you don't want to get hurt, shut your mouth, and don't move a fucking muscle. SCIENTIST (BLURTS) The chimps are infected! The Activists hesitate, exchanging a glance. SCIENTIST (continuing; stumbling, FLUSTERED) These animals are highly contagious. They've been given an inhibitor. CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? SCIENTIST Chemically restricted, locked down to a... a single impulse that... CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? The Scientist hesitates before answering. SCIENTIST Rage. Behind the Activists, the bank of monitors show the faces of the machete-wielding crowd. SCIENTIST (desperately trying to EXPLAIN) In order to cure, you must first understand. Just imagine: to have power over all the things we feel we can't control. Anger, violence... FINNISH ACTIVIST What the fuck is he talking about? 4. CHIEF ACTIVIST We don't have time for this shit! Get the cages open! SCIENTIST No! CHIEF ACTIVIST We're going, you sick bastard, and we're taking your torture victims with us. SCIENTIST NO! You must listen! The animals are contagious! The infection is in their blood and saliva! One bite and... FEMALE ACTIVIST They won't bite me. The Female Activist crouches down to face the wild eyes of the infected chimp behind the perspex. SCIENTIST STOP! You have no idea! The Scientist makes a desperate lunge towards her, but the Chief Activist grabs him. FEMALE ACTIVIST Good boy. You don't want to bite me, do you? The Female Activist gives a final benign smile, then the Finnish Activist pops open the door. SCIENTIST NO! Like a bullet from a gun, the infected chimp leaps out at the Female Activist - and sinks its teeth into her neck. She reels back as the chimp claws and bites with extraordinary viciousness. At the same moment, a deafening alarm begins to sound. FEMALE ACTIVIST (SHRIEKING) Get it off! Get if off! The Finnish Activist rips the ape off and throws it on to the floor. The infected chimp immediately bites into the man's leg. He yells with pain, and tries to kick it off. 5. Behind him, the Female Activist has started to scream. She doubles up, clutching the side of her head. FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! Jesus! Help me! SCIENTIST We have to kill her! FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! I'm burning! CHIEF ACTIVIST What's... SCIENTIST We have to kill her NOW! Meanwhile, the Female Activist's cries have become an unwavering howl of pain - and she is joined by the Finnish Activist, whose hands have also flown to the side of his head, gripping his temples as if trying to keep his skull from exploding. CHIEF ACTIVIST What's wrong with them? The Scientist grabs a desk-lamp base and starts running towards the screaming Female Activist... ...who has ripped off her balaclava - revealing her face - the face of an Infected. She turns to the Scientist. SCIENTIST Oh God. She leaps at him. He screams as they go tumbling to the ground. The Chief Activist watches in immobile horror as she attacks the Scientist with amazing ferocity. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Another ACTIVIST makes his way down the corridor towards the lab. ACTIVIST (HISSES) Terry? Jemma? 6. No answer. ACTIVIST Mika? Where are you? He reaches the door to the lab, which is closed - and... ...as he opens it, we realize the door is also soundproofed. A wall of screaming hits him. He stands in the doorway - stunned by the noise, and then the sight. Blood, death, and his colleagues, all Infected. ACTIVIST Bloody hell. The Infected rush him. FADE TO BLACK. TITLE: 28 DAYS LATER INT. HOSPITAL ROOM - LATE AFTERNOON Close up of Jim, a young man in his twenties, wearing pale green hospital pyjamas. He has a month's beard, is dishevelled, and asleep. We pull back to see that Jim is lying on a hospital bed, in a private room. Connected to his arms are multiple drips, a full row of four or five on each side of his bed. Most of the bags are empty. Jim's eyes open. He looks around with an expression of confusion. Then he sits up. He is weak, but he swings his legs off the bed and stands. The attached drips are pulled with him and clatter to the floor. Jim winces, and pulls the taped needles from his arm. JIM Ow... His voice is hoarse, his mouth dry. Massaging his throat, he walks to the door. 7. INT. COMA WARD - LATE AFTERNOON The door to Jim's hospital room is locked. The key is on the floor. He picks it up and opens the door. Jim exits into a corridor. At the far end, a sign read: COMA WARD. There is no sign of life or movement. Jim walks down the corridor. One of the doors is half-open. From inside, there is the sound of buzzing flies. INT. HOSPITAL WARDS - LATE AFTERNOON Jim moves as quickly as he can through the hospital, still weak, but now driven by adrenaline. All the wards and corridors are deserted. Medical notes and equipment lie strewn over the floors, trolleys are upended, glass partition doors are smashed. In a couple of places, splashes of dried blood arc up the walls. He reaches A&E. On one wall is a row of public pay phones. He lifts a receiver, and the line is dead. He goes down the line, trying them all. In the corner of the A&E reception is a smashed soft-drinks machine, with a few cans collected at the base. Jim grabs one, rips off the ring-pull and downs it in one go. Then he grabs another, and heads for the main doors. EXT. HOSPITAL - LATE AFTERNOON Jim exits and walks out into the bright daylight of the forecourt. The camera begins to pull away from him. JIM Hello? Aside from a quiet rush of wind, there is silence. No traffic, no engines, no movement. Not even birdsong. EXT. LONDON - SUNDOWN Jim walks through the empty city, from St. Thomas's Hospital, over Westminster Bridge, past the Houses of Parliament, down Whitehall, to Trafalgar Square. 8. A bright overhead sun bleaches the streets. A light drifts litter and refuse. Cars lie abandoned, shops looted. Jim is still wearing his hospital pyjamas, and carries a plastic bag full of soft-drink cans. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD/CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks. Night has fallen. He needs to find a place to rest... He pauses. Down a narrow side street is a church. He walks towards it. The front doors are open. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks inside, moving with the respectful quietness that people adopt when entering a church. The doors ahead to the main chamber are closed. Pushing them, gently trying the handle, it is obvious they are locked. But another open door is to his left. He goes through it. INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Jim moves up a stairwell. Written large on the wall is a single line of graffiti: REPENT. THE END IS EXTREMELY FUCKING NIGH INT. CHURCH - GALLERY LEVEL - NIGHT Jim moves into the gallery level, and sees, through the dust and rot, ornate but faded splendor. At the far end, a stained- glass window is illuminated by the moonlight. Jim pads in, stands at the gallery, facing the stained-glass window for a moment before looking down... Beneath are hundreds of dead bodies. Layered over the floor, jammed into the pews, spilling over the altar. The scene of an unimaginable massacre. Jim stands, stunned. Then sees, standing motionless at different positions facing away from him, four people. Their postures and stillness make their status unclear. Jim hesitates before speaking. 9. JIM ...Hello? Immediately, the four heads flick around. Infected. And the next moment, there is the powerful thump of a door at the far end of the gallery. Jim whirls to the source as the Infected below start to move. The door thumps again - another stunningly powerful blow, the noise echoing around the chamber. Confused, fist closing around his bag of soft drinks, Jim steps onto the gallery, facing the door... ...and it smashes open. Revealing an Infected Priest - who locks sight on Jim, and starts to sprint. JIM Father? The Priest is half way across the gallery JIM Father, what are you... And now the moonlight catches the Priest's face. Showing clearly: the eyes. The blood smeared and collected around his nose, ears, and mouth. Darkened and crusted, accumulated over days and weeks. Fresh blood glistening. JIM Jesus! In a movement of pure instinct, Jim swings the bag just as the Priest is about to reach him - and connects squarely with the man's head. JIM Oh, that, was bad, that was bad... I shouldn't have done that... He breaks into a run... INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Down the stairwell... 10. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT ...into the front entrance, where the locked door now strains under the blows of the Infected inside. JIM Shit. EXT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim sprints down the stone steps. As he reaches the bottom the doors are broken open, and the Infected give chase. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim runs - the Infected have almost reached him. A hand fires up a Zippo lighter, and lights the rag of a Molotov cocktail. As Jim runs, something flies past his head, and the Infected closest to him explodes in a ball of flame. Jim turns, and sees as another Molotov cocktail explodes, engulfing two in the fireball. He whirls, now completely bewildered. WOMAN'S VOICE HERE! Another Molotov cocktail explodes. The Infected stagger from the blaze, on fire. WOMAN'S VOICE OVER HERE! Jim whirls again, and sees, further down the road... ...Selena, a black woman, also in her twenties. She wears a small backpack, a machete is stuck into her belt - and she holds a lit Molotov cocktail in her hand. ...Mark, a tall, good-looking man - throwing another bottle. It smashes on the head of the last Infected, bathing it in flame... The burning Infected bumps blindly into a car. Falls. Gets up again. 11. Blindly, it staggers off the road, into a petrol station - where an abandoned car has run over on the pumps. The ground beneath it suddenly ignites, and the petrol station explodes. EXT. SIDE STREET - NIGHT Selena and Mark lead Jim into a side street. JIM (DAZED) Those people! Who were... who... MARK This way! Move it! Jim allows himself to be hurried along. EXT. SHOP - NIGHT Selena stops outside a newsagent's shop. The shop's door and windows are covered with a metal security grill, but the grill over the door lock has been prised away enough for Selena to slip her hand through to the latch. INT. SHOP - NIGHT Inside, most of the shelves have been emptied of confectionery. Newspapers and magazines litter the floor. The magazine covers of beautiful girls and sports cars have become instant anachronisms. At the back of the shop, a makeshift bed of sheets and sleeping bag is nestled. This has obviously been Selena and Mark's home for the last few days. INT. NEWSAGENT - NIGHT Jim, Mark and Selena enter the newsagent's and pull down the grill. MARK A man walks into a bar with a giraffe. They each get pissed. The giraffe falls over. The man goes to leave and the barman says, you can't leave that lying there. The man says, it's not a lion. It's a giraffe. 12. Silence. Mark pulls off his mask and turns to Selena. MARK He's completely humorless. You two will get along like a house on fire. Selena, who has already taken off her mask, ignores Mark. SELENA Who are you? You've come from a hospital. MARK Are you a doctor? SELENA He's not a doctor. He's a patient. JIM I'm a bicycle courier. I was riding a package from Farringdon to Shaftesbury Avenue. A car cut across me... and then I wake up in hospital, today... I wake up and I'm hallucinating, or... MARK What's your name? JIM Jim. MARK I'm Mark. This is Selena. (BEAT) Okay, Jim. We've got some bad news. Selena starts to tell her story, and as the story unfolds we see the images she describes. SELENA It began as rioting. And right from the beginning, you knew something bad was going on because the rioters were killing people. And then it wasn't on the TV anymore. It was in the street outside. It was coming through your windows. We all guessed it was a virus. An infection. You didn't need a doctor to tell you that. It was the blood. 13. Something in the blood. By the time they tried to evacuate the cities, it was already too late. The infection was everywhere. The army blockades were overrun. And that was when the exodus started. The day before the radio and TV stopped broadcasting there were reports of infection in Paris and New York. We didn't hear anything more after that. JIM Where are your families? MARK They're dead. SELENA Yours will be dead too. JIM No... No! I'm going to find them. They live in Greenwich. I can walk. (heading for the exit) I'm going to... to go and... SELENA You'll go and come back. JIM (pulling at the grill) Yes! I'll go and come back. MARK Rules of survival. Lesson one - you never go anywhere alone, unless you've got no choice. Lesson two - you only move during daylight, unless you've got no choice. We'll take you tomorrow. Then we'll all go and find your dead parents. Okay? EXT. TRAIN TRACKS - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark walk along the Docklands Light Railway in single file. Ahead is a train. Behind the train, as if spilled in its wake, are abandoned bags, suitcases, backpacks. Mark drops pace to let Jim catch up. 14. MARK How's your head? Fucked? No reply. MARK (gesturing at the city) I know where your head is. You're looking at these windows, these millions of windows, and you're thinking - there's no way this many people are dead. It's just too many windows. Mark picks up a handbag from the tracks. MARK The person who owned this bag. Can't be dead. Mark reaches in and starts to pull things out as they walk, discarding the personal possessions. MARK A woman - (car keys) - who drove a Nissan Micra - (teddy) - and had a little teddy bear - (condoms) - and carried protection, just in case. Marks tosses the condoms behind him. MARK (DRY) Believe me, we won't need them anymore than she will. He hands the bag to Jim and walks ahead. Jim pulls out a mobile phone. He switches it on. It reads: SEARCHING FOR NETWORK. The message blinks a couple of times. Then the screen goes blank. Jim looks left. He is now alongside the train. The inside of the windows are smeared with dried blood. Pressed against the glass is the face of a dead man. 15. Jim drops the phone and breaks into a run - running past Mark and Selena. MARK (HISSING) Hey! EXT. GREENWICH COMMON - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark jog across Greenwich Common. Jim gestures towards one of the streets on the far side of the green. JIM (LOW VOICE) Down there. Westlink Street. Second on the left. EXT. WESTLINK STREET - DAY The street is modest red-brick semi-detached houses. They stand outside Number 43. Jim waits while Selena scans the dark facade. SELENA If there's anyone in there who isn't human... JIM I understand. SELENA Anyone. JIM I understand. Selena shoots a glance at Jim. Jim is gazing at the house. MARK Okay. EXT. BACK GARDEN - DAY Jim uses the key under the flowerpot to open the back door. INT. HOUSE - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark move quietly through the kitchen and the downstairs of the house. 16. Surprisingly, everything is neat and tidy. Washed plates are stacked by the sink, newspapers on the table are neatly piled. The headline on the top paper reads simply: CONTAINMENT FAILS. They reach the bottom of the stairs. Selena gestures upwards, and Jim nods. They start to ascend. At the top of the stairs, Selena sniffs the air, and recoils. Jim has noticed it too. His eyes widen in alarm. MARK (WHISPERS) Wait. But Jim pushes past and advances along the top landing, until he reaches a door. By now the smell is so bad that he is having to cover his nose and mouth with the sleeve of one arm. Jim pushes open the door. Inside, two decomposed bodies lie side by side on the bed, intertwined. On the bedside table are an empty bottle of sleeping pills and a bottle of red wine. Mark appears behind him. Jim stares at his parents for a couple of moments, then Mark closes the door. INT. BATHROOM - DAY Jim sits on the toilet, alone. He is crying. In his hand is a piece of paper: "Jim - with endless love, we left you sleeping. Now we're sleeping with you. Don't wake up." The paper crumples in his fist. INT. LIVING ROOM - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark sit in the living room, on the two sofas. Jim looks dazed, uncomprehending. Selena watches Jim, her expression neutral. SELENA They died peacefully. You should be grateful. JIM I'm not grateful. Jim's words hang a moment. Then Mark talks, simply, unemotionally, matter-of-fact throughout. 17. MARK The roads out were all jammed. So we went to Paddington Station. Hoping: maybe we could get to Heathrow, maybe buy our way on a plane. My dad had all this cash, even though cash was already useless, and Mum had her jewellery. But twenty thousand other people had the same idea. (A MOMENT) The crowd was surging, and I lost my grip on my sister's hand. I remember realizing the ground was soft. I looked down, and I was standing on people. Like a carpet, people who had fallen, and... somewhere in the crowd there were infected. It spread fast, no one could run, all you could do was climb. Over more people. So I did that. I got up, somehow, on top of a kiosk. (A MOMENT) Looking down, you couldn't tell which faces were infected and which weren't. With the blood, the screaming, they all looked the same. And I saw my dad. Not my mum or my sister. But I saw my dad. His face. A short silence. MARK Selena's right. You should be grateful. SELENA We don't have time to get back to the shop before dark. We should stay here tonight. Jim nods. He isn't sure what he wants to say. JIM My old room was at the end of the landing. You two take it. I'll sleep down here. SELENA We'll sleep in the same room. It's safer. 18. EXT. LONDON - DAY TO NIGHT The red orb of the sun goes down; the light fades. As night falls, London vanishes into blackness, with no electric light to be seen. Then the moon appears from behind the cloud layer, and the dark city is revealed. INT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim is on the sofa. In the moonlight, we can see that his eyes are open, wide awake. Selena is curled on the other sofa, and Mark is on the floor - both asleep. The house is silent. Jim watches Selena sleeping for a couple of moments. Then, quietly, he gets off the sofa and pads out of the living room, down the hall to the kitchen. INT. KITCHEN - NIGHT Jim enters, standing just inside the doorway. He looks around the room. On one wall, a faded kid's drawing of a car is framed. Above the counter, on a shelf of cookery books, an album has a handwritten label on the spine: "Mum's Favorite Recipes". Jim walks to the fridge. Stuck to the door is a photo of Jim with his parents, arm in arm, smiling at the camera. Jim is on his mountain bike, wearing his courier bag. FLASH CUT TO: Jim, sitting at the kitchen table as his Mum enters, carrying bags of shopping. Jim walks over to the bags and pulls out a carton of orange juice, which he pulls straight to his mouth and begins to gulp down. His Dad walks in from the garden. JIM'S DAD Give me a glass of that, would you? JIM (draining the carton, and giving it a shake) It's empty. CUT BACK TO: 19. Jim touches the photo, their faces, lightly. Jim is facing away from the back door, which has a large frosted-glass panel. Through the glass panel, unseen by Jim a dark silhouette looms against the diffused glow from the moonlight. Through the kitchen window, a second silhouette appears. Then there is a scratching noise from the back door. Jim freezes. Slowly, he turns his head, and sees the dark shapes behind the door and window. A beat - then the door is abruptly and powerfully smashed in. It flies open, and hangs loosely held by the bottom hinge. Standing in the doorframe is an Infected Man. Jim shouts with alarm as the Man lunges at him - and they both go tumbling to the floor. At the same moment, the figure behind the kitchen window smashes the glass, and an Infected Teenage Girl starts to clamber through the jagged frame. The Man gets on top of Jim, while Jim uses his arms to hold back the ferocious assault. A single strand of saliva flies from the Man's lips, and contacts Jim's cheek. JIM (SCREAMS) Help! Suddenly, Selena is there, holding her machete. The blade flashes down to the back of the Man's neck. Blood gushes. Jim rolls the Infected Man off, just in time to see... ...Mark dispatch the Girl half way through the kitchen window. The Girl is holding Mark, but her legs are caught on the broken glass. Mark jabs upwards into the Girl's torso - she stiffens, then slumps, and as Mark steps back we see he is holding a knife. Jim hyperventilates, staring at the corpse on the kitchen floor. JIM It's Mr. Bridges... Selena turns to Jim. She is hyperventilating too, but there is control and steel in her voice. 20. SELENA Were you bitten? JIM He lives four doors down... Jim turns to the Girl sprawled half way through the window. JIM That's his daughter... SELENA Were you bitten? Jim looks at her. Selena is still holding her machete at the ready. JIM No... No! I wasn't! SELENA Did any of the blood get in your mouth? JIM No! SELENA Mark? Jim turns to Mark. He is standing in the middle of the room. Stepped away from the window. The Girl's blood is on his arm - and he is wiping it away... ...off the skin... where a long scratch cut wells up fresh blood. A moment. Then Mark looks at Selena, as if slightly startled. MARK Wait. But Selena is swiping with her machete. Mark lifts his arm instinctively, defensively, and the blade sinks in. Selena immediately yanks it back. MARK DON'T! Selena swipes again - and the blade catches Mark hard in the side of the head. Mark falls. 21. Jim watches, scrabbling backwards on the floor away from them, as Selena brutally finishes Mark off. Selena looks at Mark's body for a couple of beats, then lowers the blade. She picks up a dishcloth from the sink counter and tosses it to Jim. SELENA Get that cleaned off. Jim picks up the rag and hurriedly starts to wipe the Infected's blood from around his neck. SELENA Do you have any clothes here? JIM (fazed, frightened of her) I... I don't know. I think so. SELENA Then get them. And get dressed. We have to leave, now. With practiced speed, Selena starts to open the kitchen cupboards, selecting packets of biscuits and cans from the shelves, and stuffing them into her backpack. SELENA More infected will be coming. They always do. EXT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim and Selena exit the front door. Jim has changed out of his hospital gear into jeans and a sweatshirt. He also has a small backpack, and is carrying a baseball bat. EXT. LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk: fast, alert. But something is not being said between them... until Jim breaks the silence. JIM (QUIET) How did you know? Selena says nothing. Continues walking. JIM (INSISTENT) How did you know he was infected? 22. SELENA The blood. JIM The blood was everywhere. On me, on you, and... SELENA (CUTTING IN) I didn't know he was infected. Okay? I didn't know. He knew. I could see it in his face. (A MOMENT) You need to understand, if someone gets infected, you've got somewhere between ten and twenty seconds to kill them. They might be your brother or your sister or your oldest friend. It makes no difference Just so as you know, if it happens to you, I'll do it in a heartbeat. A moment. JIM How long had you known him? SELENA Five days. Or six. Does it matter? Jim says nothing. SELENA He was full of plans. Long-distance weapons, so they don't get close. A newsagent's with a metal grill, so you can sleep. Petrol bombs, so the blood doesn't splash. Selena looks at Jim dispassionately. SELENA Got a plan yet, Jim? You want us to find a cure and save the world? Or fall in love and fuck? Selena looks away again. SELENA Plans are pointless. Staying alive is as good as it gets. Silence. 23. They walk. Jim following a few steps behind Selena. A few moments later, Jim lifts a hand, opens his mouth, about to say something - but Selena cuts him off without even looking round. SELENA Shhh. She has seen something... A line of tower blocks some distance away, standing against the night sky. In one of them, hanging in the window of one of the highest stories, colored fairy lights are lit up, blinking gently. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk through the smashed glass doors of the tower block. It is extremely dark inside. Selena switches on a flashlight and illuminates the entrance hall. It is a mess. The floor is covered in broken glass and dried blood. The lift doors are jammed open, and inside is a dense bundle of rags - perhaps an old corpse, but impossible to tell, because the interior of the lift has been torched. It is black with carbon, and smoke-scarring runs up the outside wall. Selena moves the flashlight to the stairwell. There is a huge tangle of shopping trolleys running up the stairs. Selena gives one of the trolleys an exploratory tug. It shifts, but holds fast, meshed in with its neighbor. Then she puts a foot into one of the grates, and lifts herself up. Shining her light over the top of the tangle, she can see a gap along the top. JIM Let's hope we don't have to get out of here in a hurry. She begins to climb through. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena move steadily and quietly up the stairwell, into the building. Reaching a next landing, they check around the corner before proceeding. Through a broken window, we can see that they are already high above most London buildings, and on the wall a sign reads: LEVEL 5. 24. SELENA Need a break? JIM (completely out of breath) No. You? SELENA No. They continue a few steps. JIM I do need a break, by the way. Selena nods. They stop on the stairs. Jim slips off his backpack and sits, pulling a face as he does so... SELENA What's up? JIM Nothing. She gives him a cut-the-crap expression. JIM I've got a headache. SELENA Bad? JIM Pretty bad. SELENA Why didn't you say something before? JIM Because I didn't think you'd give a shit. A moment, where it's unclear how Selena will react to this. Then she slips off her own backpack. SELENA (going through the bag) You've got no fat on you, and all you've had to eat is sugar. So you're crashing. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot we can do about that... 25. Selena starts to produce a wide selection of pills, looted from a chemist. SELENA ...except pump you full painkillers, and give you more sugar to eat. She holds up a bottle of codeine tablets, and passes it to Jim. SELENA As for the sugar: Lilt or Tango? JIM (CHEWING CODEINE) ...Do you have Sprite? SELENA Actually, I did have a can of Sprite, but... Suddenly there is a loud scream, coming from somewhere lower down the building. Jim and Selena both make a grab for their weapons. JIM Jesus! SELENA Quiet. The scream comes again. The noise is chilling, echoing up the empty stairwell. But there is something strange about it. The noise is human, but oddly autistic. It is held for slightly too long, and stops abruptly. SELENA That's an infected. Then, the sound of metal scraping, clattering the blockade. SELENA They're in. INT. SHOPPING TROLLEY BLOCKADE - NIGHT Two Infected, a Young Asian Guy and a Young White Guy, moving with amazing speed over the blockade. 26. INT. STAIRS - NIGHT Jim and Selena sprint up the stairs. Behind them, we can hear the Infected, giving chase, howling. They pass level eight, nine, ten... Jim is exhausted. SELENA Come on! JIM (out of breath, barely able to speak) I can't. Selena continues, and Jim looks over the edge of the stairwell, to the landing below... ...where the two Infected appear, tearing around the corner. INT. STAIRWELL - NIGHT Selena sprints up the stairs... and Jim sprints past her, in an amazing burst of energy and speed. They round another bend in the stairwell... ...then both Jim and Selena scream. Standing directly in front of them is a Man In Riot Cop Gear - helmet with full visor, gloves, a riot shield in one hand, and a length of lead pipe in the other. The Man lunges past both of them, barging past, where the Infected White Man has appeared at the stairwell. The Riot Gear Man swings his lead pipe and connects viciously with the White Man's head. The White Man falls backwards against the Asian Man. Both fall back down the stairs. The Riot Gear Man turns back to Jim and Selena. MAN Down the corridor! Flat 157! Jim and Selena are stunned, but start to run down the corridor. The Asian Man is coming back up the stairs. Jim looks back over his shoulder in time to see the Riot Gear Man deliver a massive blow to the Asian Man's head. 27. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Jim and Selena run towards Flat 157. The door is open, but as they approach, it suddenly slams shut. JIM AND SELENA (hammering on the door) Let us in! GIRL (O.S.) Who is it? SELENA Let us in! The door opens a fraction, on the chain. The face of a girl appears. She is fourteen, pale, solemn-faced. GIRL Where's Dad? Jim looks back down the corridor. At the far end, the Man appears. He is holding the limp body of one of the Infected - and he tips it over the balcony, where it drops down the middle of the stairwell. MAN (CALLS BACK) It's okay, Hannah. Let them inside. The door closes, we hear the chain being slipped off, then it opens again. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim and Selena enter past the pale-faced girl. The flat is council, three-bed, sixteenth floor of the block. It has patterned wallpaper, and nice but boring furnishings. It is lit by candles. The entrance hall leads straight to the living room, which has French windows and a small balcony outside. On one wall, a framed photograph hangs, which shows the Man standing beside a black taxi cab. Next to him is a middle aged woman - presumably the Man's wife. Hannah sits at the cab's steering wheel, beaming. Another photo, beside, show Hannah sat in the seat of a go- kart. The Man follows Jim and Selena inside. 28. MAN Come in, come in. They follow the Man through to the living room, and Hannah recloses the front door, which has an impressive arrangement of locks and dead-bolts. INT. FLAT - LIVING ROOM - NIGHT In the living room, the fairy lights hang in the window, powered by a car battery. Lit by their glow, the Man goes through a careful ritual of shedding his gear, helped by Hannah. First, he lays down the riot shield. Then he puts the bloodsmeared lead pipe on a small white towel. Next, he removes his gloves - and places them beside the bar on the towel. Then he folds the towel over the weapon and gloves, and puts it beside the riot shield. Finally he removes the visored helmet. Jim and Selena watch him. They look pretty rattled, not really knowing what to expect. After the Man has finished shedding his gear, he turns. MAN So... I'm Frank, anyway. He extends his hand to Jim and Selena. Jim hesitates very briefly, then shakes it. JIM I'm Jim. SELENA Selena. Frank beams, and suddenly he seems much less frightening and imposing. If anything, he is just as nervous as Jim and Selena. FRANK Jim and Selena. Good to meet you. And this is my daughter, Hannah. (turning to Hannah) ...Come on, sweetheart. Say hello. Hannah takes a step into the room, but says nothing. FRANK So... so this is great. Just great. It calls for a celebration. 29. I'd say. Why don't you all sit down, and... Hannah, what have we got to offer? HANNAH (QUIETLY) We've got Mum's creme de menthe. An awkward beat. FRANK Yes, her creme de menthe. Great. Look, sit, please. Get comfortable. Sit tight while I get it. Frank exits. Selena, Jim and Hannah all stand, until Selena gestures at the sofa. SELENA Shall we? Jim and Selena take the sofa. Hannah stays standing. FRANK (O.S.) Where are the bloody glasses? HANNAH Middle cupboard. FRANK (O.S.) No! The good ones! This is a celebration! HANNAH Top cupboard. Another short, uncomfortable pause. Hannah looks at Jim and Selena from her position near the doorway. Her expression is blank and unreadable. JIM This is your place, then. Hannah nods. JIM It's nice. Hannah nods again. Frank re-enters. Frank is beaming, holding the creme de menthe, and four wine glasses. 30. FRANK There! I know it isn't much but... well, cheers! EXT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT The moon shines above the tower block. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim, Selena and Hannah all sit in the living room, sipping creme de menthe. Frank is disconnecting the fairy lights as he talks, and pulling the curtains closed, rather systematically checking for cracks along the edges. FRANK Normally we keep the windows covered at night, because the light attracts them. But when we saw your petrol station fire, we knew it had to be survivors... So we hooked up the Christmas tree lights. Like a beacon. Finished with the sofa, he sits on the armchair. SELENA We're grateful. FRANK Well, we're grateful you came. I was starting to really worry. Like I say, we haven't seen any sign of anyone normal for a while now. JIM There aren't any others in the building? Frank shakes his head. SELENA And you haven't seen any people outside? Frank's eyes flick to Hannah. FRANK We haven't left the block for more than two weeks. Stayed right here. Only sensible thing to do. Everyone who went out... 31. SELENA Didn't come back. FRANK And there's two hundred flats here. Most of them have a few cans of food, or cereal, or something. SELENA It's a good set-up. FRANK It isn't bad. He puts a hand on Hannah's shoulder, and gives it a squeeze. FRANK We've got by, haven't we? INT. BATHROOM - NIGHT

Jan Rutherford and Jim Vaselopulos, the hosts of The Leadership Podcast, explore core values based on the six cardinal virtues. Follow the discussion in this important episode to be reminded how the cardinal virtues apply in life and at work, and how you and your organization can move forward by going back to the fundamentals of leadership. https://bit.ly/TLP-333   Key Takeaways [1:25] Jan and Jim have both received a lot of very positive texts about Episode 332, featuring Richie Norton, who talked about the brevity of life. Jan sees that people are planning frantically for next year. [3:05] Leaders are making sure they don't get caught up in emotions but look at the facts. Jim refers to past guest Alan Beaulieu and ITR Economics. The slowdown we're feeling is a slowdown in the rate of growth, not a recession. Slowing from 25% growth to 9% growth feels like the airbags just came on. Don't overreact. [5:20] The numbers come from our words, deeds, and our ability to work through other people. Leaders get people to do things willingly that they would not do otherwise. How we lead depends on our values. Ask what is the most important thing, the second-most important, the third-most important, and so forth. We need to prioritize what we value and translate those values into behaviors we can observe. [6:47] If we say we value integrity, what is the observable behavior that comes from that value? Is hitting the number that top priority, or are people a priority? [7:42] It doesn't matter what you say, it matters what you do. Your culture is a product of your daily decisions and how you treat people. [8:53] Jim recalls an experience from his first college internship at Glenview Tool Company. The owner, Mike Sciortino told him that a security device can't prevent all theft but it can help keep honest people honest. Jim says, as leaders, let's help people do the right thing. Let's encourage them. [11:04] Jan shares a recent airline experience where “the system” wouldn't allow the airline to fix a problem. The system should be for people! [11:40] Jan explains the six cardinal virtues: Wisdom, Courage, Humanity, Justice, Temperance, and Transcendence. Wisdom is built upon curiosity. We have to reward curiosity if we want people to be able to identify problems. Daily, use the statement, “That's a great question!” Reward questions! It's important to catch people doing right. [17:15] Take the focus of questions away from yourself and put it on the other person. Instead of saying, “I don't understand this, can you explain it to me?” say, “That's fascinating. Help me understand why you're going about it that way.” [18:12] Courage gets a lot of talk these days. The best business translation of courage is honesty. Sometimes we say authentic. Jan coached a client who had been honest to their boss, but their boss just got quiet, as though wounded. If we want the truth, we need to hear it. Jim cites Choosing Courage, by Jim Detert. Courage is related to timing. Sometimes, wait for the right moment instead of blurting it out. [21:45] Jan's client recently told him that part of being courageous is not being complicit. Don't keep quiet about stuff. [22:39] Employees always have three choices about their workplace: Suck it up and deal with a toxic culture, try to change it, or leave. What do you stand for? What are you willing to compromise on, or not? It's not like there's much greener grass in different places, but there is different grass in all the organizations. You don't have to be complicit in a toxic culture or abusive leadership. [24:40] Humanity is simple kindness or the Golden Rule. This can be hard because there's a lot of competition. There's tunnel vision. Some niceties go by the wayside. But research shows that human kindness works. Humans respond best to positive reinforcement. Humanity is a decision that doesn't depend on anyone else. Just be kind, even if people are mean to you. It's doing the right thing. [28:01] Jan tells of going from being a sergeant to being an officer. He was told, “You don't have to speak like the soldiers; you can be above that.” It's a matter of respect. If you try to fit in by speaking the cool lingo, it is inauthentic. [28:58] Justice is fairness. Organizations are asking people to be fair to one another. But, in personalized leadership, you can't treat everybody the same, because of their individuality and the work function they have. People want one-on-one time with their leader. In all that, we have to be sure we're being perceived as being fair. Encourage others in the organization to be fair and equitable. [33:19] Temperance is self-discipline. Without self-discipline and sacrifice, we can't tackle big goals. John Wooden taught players how to put on socks and shoes so they wouldn't get blisters. In business, we are missing so many fundamentals, such as starting and ending meetings on time and being predictable. [35:00] Jim says discipline is respect. Showing up to meetings on time is respectful of everybody's time. Discipline with personal and business goals is respect for how important those goals are. If you don't have self-discipline, you probably don't have self-respect. Discipline thrives when you have respect. If you don't have self-respect, discipline falters. [36:29] Transcendence is spirituality. In work, Jan sees it as being gracious and operating with gratitude. Jim reminds us that in the grand scheme of things, our role is small. How do you relate to the universe and other people and creatures? Barry Schwartz, in Practical Wisdom, told of janitors in a cancer care unit operating with graciousness because the patients were in great need and having a hard time. [38:19] The transcendent behavior of the janitors improved the condition of the patients, who were at their most humiliating moments. The janitors were looking at the bigger picture than cleaning up a mess. In high-performing organizations, people operate with that level of transcendence. People who win the Medal of Honor are operating with transcendence, also known as Mission, Vision, and Values. [39:20] Companies are not started for the sake of creating a great culture. A company starts because there is a market need, and they think they can help people. More people get involved and then they think about having a good company, which means having a good culture. People are tribal. The cardinal virtues are the rules to get along with our tribe and be of service to other humans in other tribes. [40:50] Things feel out of hand because we've gotten so far from the fundamentals. As you look at planning, go back and say, “Are we making this too complicated?” [42:24] Closing quote: Remember, “Courage is the most important of all the virtues because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.” — Maya Angelou   Quotable Quotes “As [Richie Norton] reminded us, ‘Life is short' isn't a cliché, it's true. and ‘Don't defer your dreams.' Boy, that show resonated!” — Jan “We had some sectors that were growing at 25% and now they're only going to grow at 9%, so it feels like the airbags just came on because we're slowing down from 25 to 9. … The slowdown is huge but it's still a rate of growth. … Let's not overreact.” — Jim “[As a leader,] you're basically saying, ‘Let's change the trajectory, let's improve performance, let's do something different that you wouldn't have done if I didn't intercede.'” — Jan “Your culture isn't what you want it to be. Your culture is a product of the decisions you make on a daily basis. … Do [you] respect people? Do [you] listen to them when they have a concern?” — Jim “If people aren't asking questions around you, you might be the emperor without clothes.” — Jim “There is a way to ask a question so that it will never be perceived as stupid. … [Instead of ‘I don't understand this,' say], ‘That's really fascinating. What made you think to do it that way?' or ‘Help me understand why you're going about it that way.'” — Jim “We see what's going on in big tech right now; it's all fear. It's awful. People are afraid to speak up.” — Jan “It's not like there's much greener grass in different places, but there is different grass in all the organizations. They're different. There might be a place where the values line up better with what you're all about. You don't have to be complicit in a toxic culture.” — Jan “Humanity is a decision that doesn't depend on anyone else. If you're going to be kind, just be kind, even if people are mean to you.” — Jim “As leaders, we've got to encourage others in the organization to be fair and equitable.” — Jan “We know this: Without a certain amount of self-discipline and sacrifice, you can't tackle big goals and defer short-term pleasures. It's really hard. And any organization has really long-term goals.” — Jan “No company that I know of was started to create a great culture. … Every company starts because there's a market need and they think they can help other human beings. And then they get more people involved. And then they say, … ``We should have a good company!” — Jan “We are tribal. To me, these cardinal virtues are the rules for us to behave in a certain way to get along with our tribe and to deliver services, offerings, and products to other humans in other tribes. That's what we're doing.” — Jan “Everything feels like it's out of hand because we've gotten so far from the fundamentals.” — Jan   Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Interact with Jan and Jim on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram Richie Norton Alan Beaulieu ITR Economics Choosing Courage: The Everyday Guide to Being Brave at Work, by Jim Detert Jim Detert Kim Cameron The Positive Coaching Alliance Jim Thompson All I Really Need to Know, I learned in Kindergarten: Uncommon Thoughts on Common Things, by Robert Fulghum Discipline is Destiny: The Power of Self-Control, by Ryan Holiday John Wooden Kareem Abdul-Jabaar Practical Wisdom: The Right Way to Do the Right Thing, by Barry Schwartz and Kenneth Sharpe Medal of Honor The Marshmallow Test

Jan Rutherford and Jim Vaselopulos, the hosts of The Leadership Podcast, explore core values based on the six cardinal virtues. Follow the discussion in this important episode to be reminded how the cardinal virtues apply in life and at work, and how you and your organization can move forward by going back to the fundamentals of leadership. https://bit.ly/TLP-333   Key Takeaways [1:25] Jan and Jim have both received a lot of very positive texts about Episode 332, featuring Richie Norton, who talked about the brevity of life. Jan sees that people are planning frantically for next year. [3:05] Leaders are making sure they don't get caught up in emotions but look at the facts. Jim refers to past guest Alan Beaulieu and ITR Economics. The slowdown we're feeling is a slowdown in the rate of growth, not a recession. Slowing from 25% growth to 9% growth feels like the airbags just came on. Don't overreact. [5:20] The numbers come from our words, deeds, and our ability to work through other people. Leaders get people to do things willingly that they would not do otherwise. How we lead depends on our values. Ask what is the most important thing, the second-most important, the third-most important, and so forth. We need to prioritize what we value and translate those values into behaviors we can observe. [6:47] If we say we value integrity, what is the observable behavior that comes from that value? Is hitting the number that top priority, or are people a priority? [7:42] It doesn't matter what you say, it matters what you do. Your culture is a product of your daily decisions and how you treat people. [8:53] Jim recalls an experience from his first college internship at Glenview Tool Company. The owner, Mike Sciortino told him that a security device can't prevent all theft but it can help keep honest people honest. Jim says, as leaders, let's help people do the right thing. Let's encourage them. [11:04] Jan shares a recent airline experience where “the system” wouldn't allow the airline to fix a problem. The system should be for people! [11:40] Jan explains the six cardinal virtues: Wisdom, Courage, Humanity, Justice, Temperance, and Transcendence. Wisdom is built upon curiosity. We have to reward curiosity if we want people to be able to identify problems. Daily, use the statement, “That's a great question!” Reward questions! It's important to catch people doing right. [17:15] Take the focus of questions away from yourself and put it on the other person. Instead of saying, “I don't understand this, can you explain it to me?” say, “That's fascinating. Help me understand why you're going about it that way.” [18:12] Courage gets a lot of talk these days. The best business translation of courage is honesty. Sometimes we say authentic. Jan coached a client who had been honest to their boss, but their boss just got quiet, as though wounded. If we want the truth, we need to hear it. Jim cites Choosing Courage, by Jim Detert. Courage is related to timing. Sometimes, wait for the right moment instead of blurting it out. [21:45] Jan's client recently told him that part of being courageous is not being complicit. Don't keep quiet about stuff. [22:39] Employees always have three choices about their workplace: Suck it up and deal with a toxic culture, try to change it, or leave. What do you stand for? What are you willing to compromise on, or not? It's not like there's much greener grass in different places, but there is different grass in all the organizations. You don't have to be complicit in a toxic culture or abusive leadership. [24:40] Humanity is simple kindness or the Golden Rule. This can be hard because there's a lot of competition. There's tunnel vision. Some niceties go by the wayside. But research shows that human kindness works. Humans respond best to positive reinforcement. Humanity is a decision that doesn't depend on anyone else. Just be kind, even if people are mean to you. It's doing the right thing. [28:01] Jan tells of going from being a sergeant to being an officer. He was told, “You don't have to speak like the soldiers; you can be above that.” It's a matter of respect. If you try to fit in by speaking the cool lingo, it is inauthentic. [28:58] Justice is fairness. Organizations are asking people to be fair to one another. But, in personalized leadership, you can't treat everybody the same, because of their individuality and the work function they have. People want one-on-one time with their leader. In all that, we have to be sure we're being perceived as being fair. Encourage others in the organization to be fair and equitable. [33:19] Temperance is self-discipline. Without self-discipline and sacrifice, we can't tackle big goals. John Wooden taught players how to put on socks and shoes so they wouldn't get blisters. In business, we are missing so many fundamentals, such as starting and ending meetings on time and being predictable. [35:00] Jim says discipline is respect. Showing up to meetings on time is respectful for everybody's time. Discipline with personal and business goals is respect for how important those goals are. If you don't have self-discipline, you probably don't have self-respect. Discipline thrives when you have respect. If you don't have self-respect, discipline falters. [36:29] Transcendence is spirituality. In work, Jan sees it as being gracious and operating with gratitude. Jim reminds us that in the grand scheme of things, our role is small. How do you relate to the universe and other people and creatures? Barry Schwartz, in Practical Wisdom, told of janitors in a cancer care unit operating with graciousness because the patients were in great need and having a hard time. [38:19] The transcendent behavior of the janitors improved the condition of the patients, who were at their most humiliating moments. The janitors were looking at the bigger picture than cleaning up a mess. In high-performing organizations, people operate with that level of transcendence. People who win the Medal of Honor are operating with transcendence, also known as Mission, Vision, and Values. [39:20] Companies are not started for the sake of creating a great culture. A company starts because there is a market need, and they think they can help people. More people get involved and then they think about having a good company, which means having a good culture. People are tribal. The cardinal virtues are the rules to get along with our tribe and be of service to other humans in other tribes. [40:50] Things feel out of hand because we've gotten so far from the fundamentals. As you look at planning, go back and say, “Are we making this too complicated?” [42:24] Closing quote: Remember, “Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.” — Maya Angelou   Quotable Quotes “As [Richie Norton] reminded us, ‘Life is short' isn't a cliché, it's true. and ‘Don't defer your dreams.' Boy, that show resonated!” — Jan “We had some sectors that were growing at 25% and now they're only going to grow at 9%, so it feels like the airbags just came on because we're slowing down from 25 to 9. … The slowdown is huge but it's still a rate of growth. … Let's not overreact.” — Jim “[As a leader,] you're basically saying, ‘Let's change the trajectory, let's improve performance, let's do something different that you wouldn't have done if I didn't intercede.'” — Jan “Your culture isn't what you want it to be. Your culture is a product of the decisions you make on a daily basis. … Do [you] respect people? Do [you] listen to them when they have a concern?” — Jim “If people aren't asking questions around you, you might be the emperor without clothes.” — Jim “There is a way to ask a question so that it will never be perceived as stupid. … [Instead of ‘I don't understand this,' say], ‘That's really fascinating. What made you think to do it that way?' or ‘Help me understand why you're going about it that way.'” — Jim “We see what's going on in big tech right now; it's all fear. It's awful. People are afraid to speak up.” — Jan “It's not like there's much greener grass in different places, but there is different grass in all the organizations. They're different. There might be a place where the values line up better with what you're all about. You don't have to be complicit in a toxic culture.” — Jan “Humanity is a decision that doesn't depend on anyone else. If you're going to be kind, just be kind, if people are mean to you.” — Jim “As leaders, we've got to encourage others in the organization to be fair and equitable.” — Jan “We know this: Without a certain amount of self-discipline and sacrifice, you can't tackle big goals and defer short-term pleasures. It's really hard. And any organization has really long-term goals.” — Jan “No company that I know of was started to create a great culture. … Every company starts because there's a market need and they think they can help other human beings. And then they get more people involved. And then they say, … ``We should have a good company!” — Jan “We are tribal. To me, these cardinal virtues are the rules for us to behave in a certain way to get along with our tribe and to deliver services, offerings, and products to other humans in other tribes. That's what we're doing.” — Jan “Everything feels like it's out of hand because we've gotten so far from the fundamentals.” — Jan   Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Interact with Jan and Jim on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram Richie Norton Alan Beaulieu ITR Economics Mike Sciortino Choosing Courage: The Everyday Guide to Being Brave at Work, by Jim Detert Jim Detert Kim Cameron The Positive Coaching Alliance Jim Thompson All I Really Need to Know, I learned in Kindergarten: Uncommon Thoughts on Common Things, by Robert Fulghum Discipline is Destiny: The Power of Self-Control, by Ryan Holiday John Wooden Kareem Abdul-Jabaar Practical Wisdom: The Right Way to Do the Right Thing, by Barry Schwartz and Kenneth Sharpe Medal of Honor The Marshmallow Test

In episode 6, co-hosts Jim Gale and Matthew Britt interview Bruce Perlowin, one of the most notorious marijuana smugglers in U.S.history, who after being incarcerated for nine years, started several successful businesses and created “back-to-the-land communities.”  Known as Kins Domain, these communities are settlements of sustainable living owned by the people.  Bruce's were initially started to help veterans  grow and produce products, generate revenue and support the onsite holistic healing and learning center.  Kins Domain is now expanding to support many others in living from nature, rather than in cities. Bruce, or “OG” as he has been called for being an “old gangster” (a non-violent one, as he clarifies) shares many stories of his smuggling days. While in prison he earned five college degrees, and secretly married a Russian spy.  He is currently CEO of Hemp, Inc., which he says is the highest hemp processing facility in North Carolina, and that his other company makes the best CBDs in the market (https://kingofhempusa.com). His story is being made into a movie, called the King of Pot: https://www.kingofpotthemovie.com Today, his one desire to help change the world into a better place.  Even as a young child, he says he was always solution-oriented, and today here's his thoughts:  “I don't believe anybody has a right to complain about conditions without offering at least three solutions.” He aligns with quantum economics, which he calls “a market for the heart, not from power, control and greed.” The blending of permaculture, filled with biodynamic plantings and organic gardening is discussed, with Bruce stating there is so much to learn about incorporating food forests, and how important coming together is for his Kins Domain communities as well as others, including: the yoga movement the back-to-the-land movement the marijuana movement the hemp movement  Bruce noted the incredible synergy of him wanting to build Kins Domains all over the world, with Food Forest Abundance seeking to extend permaculture globally. INSIGHTS FROM FOOD FOREST ABUNDANCE'S MISSION: “This is such an absolute epic collaboration that we're putting together,” Jim shares. Jim:  “We intend to be a major part of the trigger point because once we reach a consciousness in humanity, at a certain level it will go like wildfires.  And, my last name is Gale, and my job is to blow the fire and create more abundance and more love and more wealth, and everything beautiful in our world simply by demonstrating what's possible.” Jim:  “There are 44 million acres of lawn in the U.S. alone.” He wants to take out the poisons/chemicals from those lawns, and use a percentage of those spaces to create regenerative, edible landscapes that are less maintenance. He explained he's in the process of creating a TV show, to go around the U.S., North America, and maybe even the world and show people what is actually possible. He says that most don't know what is possible with regards to permaculture, and to creating freedom and abundance, at a local level. The call to action, suggested by Bruce, is for donors to consider investing in the  $1- to 2- million documentary and follow-on TV series, The Land of Plenty. Bruce Perlowin is currently the CEO of Hemp, Inc. a successful, publicly traded company (HEMP.pk) with multiple divisions operating in the industrial help space.  From working in the organic cereal business (Rainforest Products), to promoting vitamin water and other health items (Omnitrition, Inc.), to offering innovative telecommunications services (Globalcom 2000 & One World Communications), and now educating/transforming the realm of industrial hemp, Bruce  has come along way from the drug kingpin days into mainstream America.  Everything he has done personally and professionally, up to this moment, helped make him the Renaissance man he is today.  In fact, Bruce has come full circle as the legalization of medical marijuana continues to take hold in more and more states due in part to his efforts.  Links: https://www.bruceperlowin.com/ https://hempinc.com/ https://www.kingofpotthemovie.com/ https://www.youtube.com/user/EcoHarmonyKinsDomain https://kingofhempusa.com https://kinscommunity.com Food Forest Abundance: Website: https://foodforestabundance.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FoodForestAbundance Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/foodforestabundance/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/FFAbundance LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/food-forest-abundance/ The Jim Gale Show Podcast: https://linktr.ee/jimgaleshow Produced by: https://socialchameleon.us

The Successful Business and Practice of Law - Presented by LAWCLERKJim Hacking: How To Successfully Market Your Law Firm Using Digital ToolsHOST: Greg Garman Introduction:Welcome to The Successful Business and Practice of Law. On today's episode, I have Jim O. Hacking, of Hacking Immigration Law LLC. Not only is he a wealth of knowledge about immigration law, he is also well-versed and knowledgeable in marketing a law firm, especially on YouTube. Today we're talking about his most successful marketing practices, utilizing digital tools (including YouTube, podcasts, and Facebook groups), and the future of Hacking Immigration Law and other law practices. We also talk about the importance of doing well by doing good. Jim is definitely changing things in nuanced ways to make the profession better.Jim is passionate about immigration law. Since forming in 2008, he has grown his firm to over 30 employees and helped countless individuals obtain their immigration benefits. He is also the co-founder of Maximum Lawyer. Jim has set an audacious goal for himself: to help over 10,000 people become US citizens by the end of the decade.The Successful Business and Practice of Law is brought to you by LAWCLERK. This is a place where we can have conversations with lawyers who have achieved outsized success, those who are building innovative business models, and those who are simply doing things differently. We may also cover how technology is changing what we do. The main focus, however, is on how we run our businesses and practices in order to make them better.Talking Points:●     Jim's business model: mostly flat fee model●     The journey to law for Jim and his wife, Amany Ragab Hacking●     The choice to go national●     The breakdown of Jim's team●     Intentional growth and Jim's 10-year goal●     Jim's entrepreneurial approach●     The amount of growth that comes from the content that Jim makes on YouTube●     Marketing and creating substantive, helpful content for YouTube●     Understanding the value of firm building●     Maximum Lawyer, The Guild, and the business of law●     Commoditizing aspects of the practice of lawResources/Links:LAWCLERK: https://www.lawclerk.legal/ Hacking Law Practice: https://hackinglawpractice.com/ Maximum Lawyer: https://maximumlawyer.com/  Quotes:“My understanding is that you can't do immigration on a contingency fee.” – Jim“The great thing about immigration is it's federal, just like bankruptcy, and so I can practice in all 50 states. ” – Jim“We were on Inc 5000's Fastest Growing and we will be again next year too. We've been growing at 100% scale the last two years, which is just mind-boggling.” – Jim“We pulled out of our butt the idea that a lawyer, a paralegal, and a an admin can handle 150 cases a year, at any one time… The right balance is really about 90 - 100.” – Jim“Yesterday we had about 10,000 video views for the day since October so I feel like we're back on track.” – Jim“Most lawyers think of the ‘running of the business' as the hassle part, not the fun part.” - Jim“There's always going to be a need for good council.” - Jim 

In this second episode of the Jim Gale Show, activist and “bridge builder” Henna Maria joins Jim Gale and Matthew Britt to share her new Save Our Food Program, created to activate and inspire people in knowing the impending food crisis does not have to happen. She also addresses the healing crisis that is impacting us on a global scale as “a tremendous wake up call.” Part of her mission is to counter the fear that has been “blasted upon us.”  She believes fear mongering can be turned around into preparation and wisdom, like how ancestors used to live intimately connected to the Earth. GETTING BACK TO NATURE: Henna Maria: “With our generation, we've lost that.  We've become very complacent, dependent and lazy.”  Having lived in the jungle before, she shares seeing how incredibly empowered these natural people are, doing everything by hand while singing and love working. They are happy she believes because “Nature is a key to everything.  When you live an actual life in nature, you are exposed to the miracle of life every day. Waking life is exciting, wondrous.  It's peaceful.  It's harmonious.” Jim: “There is something about being in the vibration of a living system that raises you up and then there's something about being productive that also brings us joy.” Henna Maria: “Removing ourselves from that environment, “the nourishing wonderful Earth,” and living in little boxes in cities blasted with disharmonious frequencies, causes us to lose that connection, and connection to the Divine, too.” “Save Our Food is one of those inspiring sparks that takes us back to our origins, which is the Earth.” Jim: In awe of Henna Maria's new food program supported from so many in just nine days says: “When an idea is right, when it resonates, when it vibrates, when it comes from a place of the ultimate truth and love and joy and vibration, it explodes throughout the Universe.” Henna Maria: “We're not trying to monetize this in any way.  We just want to show the world that we can collaborate, and how easy it is to collaborate.” Jim: “When we start working with nature instead of trying to destroy and control her, that's the answer to all of it, including our own hearts and minds and spirits.” SIMPLIFYING WHAT MATTERS: Henna Maria: “One of the biggest medicines that humanity needs is gratitude…and it doesn't do it (all those affirmations) unless you have something that you're creating, that you're belonging to, a community.”   She hopes to inspire through the Save the Food Program community with “Look how many are already growing their food and look how easy it is, and look at how much fun it can be.” Matthew:  “As we simplify our lives…we have the abundance that nature is providing us and the abundance that the intelligent humans have been able to design other technologies into these systems that we can now mesh the two of them together, and create a world of abundance that is so far only in the world of imaginations but truly it is here now.   And we have the privilege of connecting in a much deeper way–turn off the television, turn off those distraction things…and as we pull away from the system, we will see how many people truly want this way.” INSPIRATION FOR THE SAVE OUR FOOD PROGRAM: Henna Maria: “It is my life in the forest.  I grew up in forests in Finland, then moved to the big city in London, then San Francisco, then I went to the rain forest. So, I had my upbringing in that natural environment…happiest times of my life.  The closer I was to nature the happier I would be. So, I had this seed planted in me. I knew that was the way–to be back in nature.” “Seeing how this coordinated attack against humanity, whatever we're going through now, is trying to totally paralyze us.  So if it isn't the pandemic, now they're talking about agricultural collapse–and taking away that last thing we're all holding onto which is food.  And I felt that we really do create our realities, but we do it together so I see we're all co-creators so if we want to co-create that future of food scarcity and poverty and total suffering and dependency on state, we can do that out of our own ignorance.  Or, we can choose differently: “I have tremendous faith that when you put a seed of hope out there, when you put a seed of possibility, people will recognize it.”  “We already have that abundance, that life, waiting to blossom in us, so it's like a seed that's just waiting to be nourished.” VISION: –Counter fear with beautiful images of food, of farmer markets. –July 22, 2022, Action Day, where everyone takes a stand for food sovereignty to counter fear around food scarcity.  –To show together we can collaborate to create abundance and possibility for all of us to access natural, locally grown food. Take picture of yourselves with local farmers, in your backyard gardens and fruit orchards, or at farmer's markets, with a sign:  SAVE OUR FOOD, sharing on social media with hashtag, (#saveourfood). –Gather way makers and people with resources and skills, and solutions around food and sustainable living, included in the website, https://saveourfood.net, so people can find the resources they need. Henna Maria: “Because we have this inspiration in us, we can do it, very fast.” Jim: “We have the creative abilities of spirit, of Source on our side.  And that's all we need so let's continue to plant those seeds.” Matthew: “What we're talking about is removing all those barriers and walls (by people trying to control us), connecting together, taking inspired action around collaboration and communication, and bringing out the true human potential.” Henna Maria: “We're going to give birth to this new Earth in a new way and I can't wait to witness it all.” About Henna Maria Vermeulen:Peace activist, Poet and Practitioner of Ancestral Healing Arts Founder of Dawn of Peace, with a mission to teach people about the spiritual values of life, human and animal rights, medical freedom and self-sovereignty. Co-founder of the International Police for Freedom movement–educating police and civilians about our natural rights in order to build unity and humanize our societies. She has studied ancestral healing with tribal people in the Amazon for five years and been an activist for 16-plus years–bringing those two worlds together to heal the individual and heal the community. Save Our Food: https://saveourfood.net/ Henna's Personal Website: https://hennamaria.community Henna's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/hennamaria22 Food Forest Abundance: Website: https://foodforestabundance.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FoodForestAbundance Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/foodforestabundance/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/FFAbundance LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/food-forest-abundance/ Learn More: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIb8p5eWZl8 Tune into more episodes of The Jim Gale Show: https://linktr.ee/jimgaleshow Produced by: https://socialchameleon.us/

Welcome!  Hey everyone.  I hope you are all doing well during this period of social distancing we are experiencing due to the Covid-19 pandemic. If you are new to doing remote work or working from home then you are going to want to attend the series of webinars on tools, techniques, and tactics you can use to make this easier for you.  These are all offered at no charge. Later next week, I will be offering a live training course on securing your computers, networks, and browsers. This will be deeply discounted. No pressure, but if you are interested, I would appreciate your business. I was on with Jim Polito who was sitting in his kitchen under self-quarantine because the State of Massachusetts has advised their residents to stay home and avoid unnecessary travel and other unnecessary activities during this two-week time period. We discussed VPNs. What they are and when and why to use them and how to use them correctly. So, here we go with Jim Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig You are on a laptop, if you're at home, If you're on an airplane, at the airport, at a coffee shop, and you are using a VPN to connect into the network at work. You are now exposing the business network at work to everything around you in that coffee shop. Craig Mr. Jim Polito, this morning had me do a quick rundown of VPNs and why they might not be the right thing for you. And I talked a little bit about, but man some of the real cons to it and what can they do? And that's all part of what's happening later on. Today. I'm doing some intense stuff here on VPN, about an hour's worth answering all your questions, and helping you to understand the house the whys and the when should you use it when it comes to VPN? Of course, you're listening to Craig Peterson, and here we go with Mr. Jim Polito. Jim There is nothing weird about Craig Peterson, nothing at all because he is our good friend. He is a source of invaluable information 365 days a year, but especially during this whole Coronavirus work at home time. He's just second to none. Joining me now, our tech talk guru Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Hey, good morning, Jim. Yeah, I've been very, very busy with webinars. I did them every day, twice a day now for the last week and a half. I've got another probably two weeks' worth, I think. We're going to be doing a live webinar, or two of them one at 4 pm and one at 7:30 pm. But webinars where I'm answering everybody's questions and I'm doing training. Today's topic is a VPN because it's very misunderstood. A lot. A lot of people need a VPN, but when do you need them? How can you use them? When should you use them? When are they useful? And even give some recommendations of some different VPN that you can use out there. So it's been going well, I haven't had a single, negative comment. And so far I've done about, I think it's 12 or 14 of these live webinars just talking about remote workers working from home, what's the technology need to use? What are the threads? How, how are they the home workers now endangering the office, but today's VPN, we're going to have more every day for the next two weeks, and it's right there on my homepage. Jim All right, and Craig, you've been making that available to our listeners, and you made it possible to listeners before you opened it up to everybody else. Greg, why don't you give us just a brief tutorial on a VPN, and that is, You know, so people understand it. I didn't know what it was until about five years ago, myself, and you know what a VPN is? And it's something that yes, in the right circumstances, can protect your data and protect everything else. Craig Yeah, you're right. It's VPN is the host. Again, we have a lot of TLS in this business, which stands for three-letter acronyms. VPN stands for Virtual private network. The idea is that you can hook up two networks together, that's where it came from initially. You know, way back when we'd have to have a T-one line going from one point to another. And you probably remember those Jim because radio stations were using them for years of leased lines to connect to the transmitter. Yeah, and yeah, TV stations everybody. So that's how it started. Well, those were expensive. I had two T-one lines coming to my house 25 years ago, and that cost me almost $6,000 a month. Very, very expensive. Things have changed today, and VPN came into being to replace those expensive leased lines. So with the Internet, what you could do is just have an internet connection and connect the remote office with the main office. And instead of having to have that expensive leased line, now you had a highly encrypted data channel, and it connects the two networks. So that's where it started. Today what we're using it for is very, very similar. We're still using it to connect networks. And that's the beauty of it. And that's the curse of it. And here's the curse smarts. You know, if you are on a laptop, if you're at home if you're on an airplane, At the airport at a coffee shop, and you are using a VPN to connect into the network at work. You are now opening up your business network at work to everything around you in that coffee shop. Jim So you've been talking about open 19 Craig Yeah, exactly. And Covid-19. What are we trying to do right now? Isolate? Jim Isolate? We're trying to die. That's the key. Craig Yeah. Because here's your significant danger. You walk into the house, and you bring Covid-19 into a home. And now all of a sudden people have it, and they're dying. Well, what do you think happens when you connect on a home computer? That is a pretty high likelihood that it's infected somehow? What happens when you connect that VPN now to the business network, you're spreading disease so VPNs on No, no, no, you have to be very, very careful. So here's another problem with the VPN. Jim So I guess the way you look at it is no, but the way you look at it is, so the VPN is that secure connection. But if your connection to that secure connection is lousy, then what's the sense of having that other secure connection between you and your employer? Craig You're making things worse. Exactly. Yeah, the connection may be secure. Yeah. So here's your other problem, you go out. And let's say you get a Norton VPN or something. And we're going to talk a lot more about this. Today, I'm going to show graphics about how this all works. So I help people understand. But you get one of these free VPN services or even one of these paid VPN services. Your data is only secure from your device to the VPN server. So let's say you're using one of these paid VPNs and you're connecting to the bank, and somehow you think And it's giving you additional security. It's not, and it is not at all. It might be making it worse, particularly with the free VPN services that are out there, you will be less secure because they are: what the old Willie Sutton quote, "why did he rob banks because that's where the money is," with VPNs that's where the money is going. Craig Yeah, the attackers are going after these three VPN servers and other VPN services, because they know that's where all of the connections are. And some of these VPN services are even tracking everything you do, everywhere you go, and some of them are also evil. I've seen VPN services that are running through Russia that require you to install this unique key so that you can use it and are doing a man in the middle attack. So that's why we're going to cover for an hour today. It will be at 7:30 pm. I am going through this and helping people understand. They can be useful, they can be necessary, but they must be appropriately secured and used correctly. Jim Alright, so Craig, there's a lot of different ways that folks can get information from you. Now, I know you've got a landing page on your website, and I'm going to I want you to give that out. But the first way is to get other information from you that you put out weekly to me, and then we share here, and that's by texting my name to this number. Craig to 855-385-5553. So just texting Jim 2855385 5553 Jim Standard data and text rates apply now, Craig, for folks to get to your website, and to find out about this webinar, the VPN information how do they do that? Craig Well, we have a registration on the site. The one that's up there right now is for last night. I haven't checked Just this morning, but I will be changing as soon as we get off the phone. Go to Craig Peterson dot com. It'll be right there at the bottom of the homepage at Craig Peterson dot com. That's s-o-n calm. Jim Alright, Greg, thank you so much. I appreciate the time, and we'll catch up with the next week. Unless, of course, something comes up, then you're always welcome here in between. Craig Alright, hey, thanks, Jim. Take care. Jim Take care. Bye-bye, Craig Peterson everybody a great resource. All right, a final word. When we return. You're listening to the Jim Pulido show from my kitchen with pops. Your safe space. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Big Drew and Jim discuss Zavier Simpson and Jon Teske’s legacy at Michigan and debate about hopping on the Christian Wood bandwagon. Also, the guys talk about recent trade rumors involving Al Michaels and rumors regarding Tua Tagovailoa. Lastly, the Tigers are bopping a lot of homers in Spring Training:- What’s the legacy of Zavier Simpson and Jon Teske at Michigan?- Who’s jumping on Christian Wood bandwagon with Jim?- There’s a trade rumor swirling involving…..Al Michaels? Does this intrigue you?- The Redskins officially weigh in on the Tua Tagovailoa rumors. Are they bluffing?- The Tigers Spring Training hype train is officially underway! Are you buying into it?- Who’s doubting MSU more: Michigan or MSU fans?In addition, the guys talk all things MSU basketball and sprinkle in some MSU football with Lansing State Journal’s Graham Couch.

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and we discussed these Fake Jobs that are being offered on-line, spoofed websites and ID theft. Then we got into who was responsible for hacking Jeff Bezos's phone and why we have to be careful who we hire.  So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig You know, Make America Great Again, that would not be a great password. Yeah, but some random words strung together are much harder to crack on a computer than anything else because of the way the cracking technologies work nowadays. The cracking technology is much different than it used to be. Craig Morning, everybody that was me with Mr. Jim Polito, and we broke down a couple of things today. First of all, a couple of security things, the truth about your passwords. We went into the whole hack here that led to the most expensive divorce in history, and also employment scams on the rise. Why is it happening? What should you be cautious of if you're looking for a new job? The FBI has a special warning out. So here we go with Jim. Jim Always ahead of the curve. Always bringing us the latest from the world of tech talk, our good friend, Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig A good morning. You know things are always changing out there in the industry. I'm going to bring something up. You mentioned earlier today. What they're trying to with this Data Privacy Day is to bring some visibility into the whole password problem, right? And you talked about some of the advice that they were giving and, and, what iHeart makes you guys do. What is it? Change your passwords every three months, Jim Yes, every three months. We have to change our password, and it can't be even close to the previous password. Craig That's a widespread thing out there in the industry, just in general. But I got to tell you that the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which is the organization within the federal government that comes out with all of these security standards, change that about a year ago. So You now have something to use against them. Here's why. Here's what's going on. If they make you come up with a new password every three months, what are the odds that it's going to be an excellent password? Next, what are the chances that you're not going to write it down somewhere like where the cleaning lady can find it? Maybe in your drawer, taped to the bottom of your keyboard, or even worse, and I know people are listening that are going to go into the office today and immediately and take down their post-it notes. If you can believe it, people place post-it notes right on their computer. The current recommendations are, you come up with a great phrase. Yeah, you don't have to use special characters and numbers and all this other stuff. But come up with a few random words. Pick four or five words that you can remember that you can associate together. Oh, and you don't have to change it every three months. Once a year is probably enough and phrase with three or four words that are there aren't things like, you know, make America great again, that would not be a de password. Yeah, but some random words that are harder to crack on a computer than anything else because the way the crackers are working nowadays, the cracking technologies is much different than it used to be. So just a quick word of advice to people if you're worried oh my gosh, I don't change my password every three months, and I don't have special characters and digits in it. Best password according to nest is just four maybe five words. random ones strung together and that's your passwords more accessible cookie-cutter type two, Jim But I have a new one it is Could I please MooMoo face banana? No. Can I please use MooMoocen face banana face to the dog patch Craig That would work. I think Jim I think Steve Martin said that one. I'm stealing it from Steve Martin. But yeah, you don't want to use one like that. Then someone if they know that expression will say, Oh, yeah, I remember Steve Martin said that. If they just get a few words they'll say, they'll say, I'd like to guess at solving the puzzle. Especially if you say it on the radio. Craig All right. Well, it's data privacy day. And that's why I brought it up. So great day to have you with us. And a great day to warn people about a new scam. The FBI is talking about, so you think you're applying for a job online? And then maybe we even got the job. And the fact is, you're talking with a scammer online. Unknown Speaker 4:57 Yeah, that's something. Craig The trick behind that right now, the scammers, the bad guys. What are they doing? They always go after the latest stuff, maybe something that's in the news, etc., etc. And you know what, it turns out I don't know, I listened to some of the house hearings. It would seem as though the job markets terrific the economy is falling apart, and we've got the worst president in history. But I think readability is more along the lines of, Hey, you know, I've had this job for 234 years now. If you're a millennial, hey, I've had this job for six months now. I wonder if there's a better job of it. I keep hearing that people are getting paid more. So they're looking for jobs. So you have even though the job market is tight for employers, you have all these people looking for jobs. So the scammers have figured out. You know what, we can get a lot of information from somebody that applies for a job. Because people, people will fill out forms, right, Jim, and they'll give me their social security number, their employment history, their home address their phone number. So people are now going online, they're looking for new jobs to see if they can do a little bit of an upgrade, which makes a whole lot of sense to me. And they are getting the victims to not only give all of this information to them, but they're also even getting people to pay them. And we're talking about these criminals who are, you know, have these fake jobs averaging about $3,000 per person, according to the FBI advisory? Jim Hey $3,000, which also means, by the way, some people were out $100,000 Craig Yeah, exactly. So they're now using the spoof web page to harvest this personally identifiable information. And a spoof website, of course, isn't like instead of going to I heart, you go to I dash hearts calm. Yep. Right. And you don't notice that you went to the wrong website. And the criminals are also they're all putting advertising in legitimate ads from legitimate employers. So you go to the site, it looks real, right? These bad guys are stealing ads from legitimate employers. They're doing everything. But that's because now employees are busy looking for other jobs. Because what the heck, they might just find them. Jim We're talking with Craig Peterson, our good friend Tech Talk guru. I have to be careful. When applying online, make sure you know to whom you're talking. If it sounds too good, it probably is not real. Craig in the time we have left, I want to ask about this week john had the story. Last week, we learned that Jeff Bezos's phone hack that led to the exposure of his affair. It turns out the Saudi prince accused of masterminding the murder of a journalist is the same one charged with the hack on Jeff Bezos's phone, of course, the founder of Amazon. I'll be talking about this a lot more in my on my podcast this weekend, which you can also find on the iHeart as well. Jim There we go. Yeah, and the easiest way to find it is you just go to Craig Peterson dot com. Craig But here's what happened. Guys, man has a media been getting this report wrong. But let's start at a high level. First of all, remember Jeff Bezos bought this fish wrapper out of Washington DC, remember when that happened, right? It was the Washington Post. So he bought this newspaper down in Washington DC, and is, you know, it's been around for a very long time. Okay. It broke some national stories over the years, but it's just gone left. Well, Jeff hired a journalist, Jamal Khashoggi, and he began writing for the Washington Post had been criticizing the Saudi Crown Prince because of the murdering of this Jamal Khashoggi. And then they were saying a lot of nasty things about it. So what ended up happening now apparently, this is all allegations at this point. But apparently, the Saudi Crown Prince got pretty upset that the Washington Post was saying all these bad things about him and that they murdered this. I'll use the term journalist kind of loosely because I think that does apply here in the case of Khashoggi. Yeah, at any rate, he wanted the Crown Prince, apparently to have a little vengeance. So the owner of The Washington Post, ultimately, is Jeff Bezos. Yep, the richest man in the world. Yep. He, here's what he did. And this is kind of interesting because we use these apps all the time. And apps are, you know, they can be significant. They sometimes can be monitored. And there's something called an end to end encryption. And when people are looking at apps to communicate, you want an end to end encryption. In other words, you don't want it set up and in a way that somebody can intercept it. So apparently, Jeff Bezos exists. An App called WhatsApp, which is owned by Facebook and does have an end to end encryption. But here's what happened. It looks like they used some of the hacker hacking software that's known as a zero-day attack against whats app. And apparently, there was a bug inside of the WhatsApp app. Now let's think about this for a minute from people that use WhatsApp or use any kind of a chatting or messenger program. If you're using your iPhone, it comes up and says, this half WhatsApp wants access to your photos and videos. And so you're sitting there thinking, Okay, what am I, you know, let's find I'm going to want to share videos and photos. So yeah, go ahead. Let's what WhatsApp has access to, and that's true, obviously on Android as well. A little more confused than Android, but it's right in both cases. So apparently what happened was, there was a bug that some people There's still allegations here, I'm not positive on the reality there is I'm not going to make any names or, or other allegations here. Researchers found a bug in WhatsApp that allowed them to send you a WhatsApp user a video. And that video broke into and took over WhatsApp. And almost immediately after Jeff Bezos received this video from the Saudi prince, you know whether or not it was him as a different story, but received it from the Saudi prince. His phone started exfiltrating data. In other words, all of a sudden, his phone started sending pretty much everything that was in his pictures and videos to Saudi Arabia. And then what do you have, you have the most expensive divorce in history. Jim It was the most expensive divorce in history, how many? Meaning she didn't even get half. It was still, what did she get, like 38,000,000,048 billion bunch of property. Craig Wow, it's tough. It's tough to live on that. So it's he noticed something has just started slowing down. It was sending video data out at a rate of 106,000,000%. Higher than previously. So he noticed something was wrong. And he took it to a forensics group who started having to look at the phone, but it was a bug in WhatsApp. And that kind of concerns me I'm sure it's going to be fixed if it hasn't been already. But you know, this has to do with again, having 100 200 apps on your phone. Think about it, all of those apps on your phone, what bugs do they have in them? How many apps to use. And as part of security awareness today, and I've said this for a long time, delete apps that you do not use frequently. If If you want real secure communications, if you're using iPhone messages is probably all you need messages and FaceTime, they both do a great job. And because Apple's paying close attention to it, bugs like this are likely to get fixed very, very quickly. And this is what happened to this is the new world that we're living in today. All of these application developers and these cool little apps that we have, you know the ones make it look like you're 20 years older or younger are stealing our data in some cases like this morphine app, the data is sent directly to Russia. You lose all rights to any pictures you uploaded. Worse yet, who knows what they're doing with those photos once they get there. So get rid of these apps that you're not using and don't trust them. 100% of you think something weird is happening that might be. And one real quick thing I have to say, and that is that when we get involved with an investigation for business on behalf of a company that thinks they might have been hacking, something might be going on 99% of the time, Jim, we get a call. Something's going on with our email. We're not sure what it is. And then when we dig into it more refined Chinese backdoors Russian hack, Jim yeah. Craig Right now, everyone's attacking our customers. It's just amazing what's happening out there. Jim All right. Now you know what's happening out there. He's told you about the latest security stuff you need to know during this segment. If you want more of this information, get on board with Craig Peterson. All you have to do is text my name, Jim, to this number 855-385-5553. That's just texting Jim to 855-385-5553. Standard data and text rates apply. And Craig Peterson will not annoy you bother you sell you something or hack you. Don't worry about it. Craig, thank you so much. Great segment. We'll talk with you next week. Craig Thanks, Jim. Bye-bye. Craig 16:31 All right. Hey, everybody, I want to let you know we have been working hard creating a new course for you. I will have exclusive giveaways for you as part of the course. It is going to be the best webinar ever, of course, all centered on transforming your security, your security posture, and more. So keep an eye out on your email, Greg peterson.com slash subscribes, but see the only one Didn't find out about it. Take care, everybody. Be back tomorrow. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Terry talks garbage and Jim talks politics. Plus some fun news and stats, but things get heated a couple times during the show. Message from Terry to Jim: "There is a lot of anger in the show. We may want to make a new show with less anger."

In this episode, Mickey interviews a senior leader of Conversant, Jim Motroni, on his thoughts of why annual performance reviews might actually decrease performance. Leaders must learn hot to be partners for improvement. Learn more about how leaders influence the performance and wellbeing of other people. Working with humans can be unpredictable, but the outcomes are sure to be much more positive through open lines of communication between leaders and the people they work with. Highlights The only people who should care about learning how to influence are people who have ever been responsible for others. So basically, everyone. Dominating in the moment may seem like the easiest possibility, but it means backward growth in the long run that impedes productive aims. The antidote to the misguided use power is connecting people from your own humanity and the humanity of the people around you. The fundamental role of leaders is to create self-supervising, committed people in action. Have conversations as soon as the need is apparent, because the longer you wait, the greater the risk of having an easier conversation turns into a more difficult—or even crisis—conversation. Seek to inspire open, frequent dialogue rather than avoid the difficult conversations.  Instead of punitive assessment measures that may actually hinder growth and productivity, reviews can be an invitation to work in partnership toward collective improvement. The Responsibility of Leaders to Influence 0:59 Mickey Connolly: Today I have with me one of our esteemed colleagues, James Joseph Motroni. Jim and I have known each other for 22 years. It was March of 1994, and in all that time I’ve known you, you’ve had a varied career including being a bank executive and then counsel to over 75 CEOs. Jim is a senior leader here at Conversant, where we work on how the human interactions and big systems affect the quality of people’s lives and the results they produce. 1:56 Mickey: A particular area of interest for you is how leaders influence the performance of other people. 2:10 Jim Motroni: This idea is one of the first challenges I was introduced to when I was in a leadership role. I thought, “There has to be a secret formula for how this happens.” A lot of what we do in business is anticipatable that yields to formula approaches and standard ways of doing things, but the challenge of working with human beings never really changes. 2:50 Jim: Since then, I’ve been a student of what it takes to create great results, but it is a never ending challenge to look at how this happens. I’m in that game from a personal and professional point of view. 3:23 Mickey: It’s interesting that we bring our families into the conversation, because the desire to influence the impact of others is also deeply embedded in the notion of parenting. The only people who should care about this are people who have ever been responsible for others. When we have the responsibility for the wellbeing and performance of other people, we can take that on in ways that are constructive and ways that are destructive. Human Connection as the Antidote to Corruption 4:05 Mickey: In our leaders, bosses and bastards trio of ways of being, leaders evoke contribution. They bring out the best in people and they help them operate at the top of their talents. Bosses issue instructions, which may or may not help someone operate. Bastards issue demands and provide no support whatsoever. 4:42 Jim: There’s something that encourages us to ignore what we know about how human beings coordinate and inspire each other. Something gets lost when we take on authority. When we have power over someone, we can act like the rules don’t apply to us. Sometimes we forgot the basic principles of how humans get things done, inspire others, evoke the best in each other, create the kind of ongoing relationships that can handle increasingly difficult breakdowns. 5:21 Jim: Sometimes we rely on what looks to be the easy way out, which is to be a boss or a bastard. We may put up this veneer of, “I told you to do it, I dominated you or I had authority so I could make you do it.” 5:42 Jim: Those of us who have ever been parents or had parents will attest that sometimes that feels like the easiest way. But that’s one of those times when fast becomes slow. It actually moves us backwards in terms of our long-term ability to turn things out. 6:02 Jim: Leaders understand that they can use authority and power, but they use it judiciously and they use it inside of the desire to grow a relationship and evoke the best of what each person brings to the table. 6:26 Mickey: Jim is the co-author of The Vitality Imperative: How Connected Leaders and Their Teams Achieve More with Less Time, Money and Stress. You just reminded me of the Lord Acton quote that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The antidote to power is community—connecting people from their humanity and the humanity of others. 7:02 Mickey: Senior leaders can create development community around them, where people are free to give feedback, say what they see and report the impact the leader is having (whether it’s positive or negative). If leaders promote an environment where leadership occurs in an open network of relationships and everyone has a right to give their view, that helps us maintain the humility that ought to come with the opportunity to be that influential in the lives of other people. 7:46 Jim: As we work inside of organizations that are attempting to manage that dynamic, part of the structure of how they manage it actually works against that sense of community you’re talking about. I’m referring to the challenge of having quarterly or annual performance reviews. There’s too much time between when we talk about how things are going. 8:17 Jim: One thing we talk about here at Conversant is how we can have conversations early and often that keep us at “Point Easy,” the time when it’s relatively easy to have a conversation to bring us back on track. Community is built piece by piece with frequent interactions. If you try to build it on a quarterly or annual basis, it works against how humans operate. 8:46 Jim: Humans like to be at Point Easy, where small adjustments add up to big adjustments over a long term, and where talking about where we are frequently takes out the sting, fear and disconnection the times when we look to adjust performance. 9:00 Jim: This is adjusting performance and results in both directions: I want feedback from people who work with and for me and I want to give feedback to the people I work with and for. Building community sometimes flies in the face of the structures that we’ve set up in organizations that no longer scale or work for how we work anymore. Inspiring Contribution through Autonomy and Transparency 9:27 Mickey: Over the years that you’ve counseled CEOs, it’s likely really frequent that leaders want to talk about the influence they have over others. What have you found over the years about how senior leaders can inspire the contribution of others and cause improvement without domination? 10:30 Jim: One is to have a sense of how I can connect a person to what our largest purposes are. There is an idea I reflect back on a lot that our colleague, Tom Knighton, introduced me to in a slightly different way: The role of leaders fundamentally is to create self-supervising, committed people in action. 10:58 Jim: If create people that are self-supervising, they don’t need to keep coming back to us. If people are committed, they’re personally inspired and in the game so that when they run into a roadblock, they’re still disciplined and resilient enough to work through it. When they’re in action, people aren’t waiting to be told what to do. 11:22 Jim: If you look at that as a framework for how to create self-supervising, committed people in action, part of it is that they know what we’re trying to do as an organization so their efforts can move in that direction. 11:42 Jim: The second thing that leaders need to be able to do is to understand this unique individual in front of them and what inspires him or her and what support he or she needs to make this work. 12:00 Jim: The third thing is that leadership is a reciprocal arrangement. We are both getting smarter as we work together. I’m as interested in what you see that informs my leadership as I am with my capacity to tell you what to do. 12:20 Mickey: That’s an interesting triad to connect people to a purpose that’s important to the enterprise and one they can admire, to look at how their unique needs are and how that person can contribute to that purpose and to contribute to one another. That’s a pretty good recipe. Open Conversation Rather Than Avoidance 12:24 Mickey: I’m going to look at the other side of the coin. Those are things to be for. I think there are also things to be against and I’d like to look at the relationship between them and see how they apply to each other. 12:59 Mickey: Our friend David Dotlich talks about a senior executive he knows, the CEO of a global corporation who could not bring himself to tell his executive assistant that his personal hygiene was so bad people didn’t want to be in meetings with him because of the smell, which had been going on for months. 13:29 Mickey: That story reminds me of how many things we see and don’t act on. You were talking about Point Easy earlier, and there are so many things we avoid. 13:43 Mickey: I was with some executives last week and I had to manage my own reactions. There is part of their company that is not going well relative to their strategic commitments and the people who can make the difference don’t have all the facts. They don’t want to “be negative.” Senior executives saying, “Well, we could just hurt everyone’s motivation.” Okay, so keep everyone feeling good while the place goes bankrupt… 14:14 Jim: “We’ll be the happiest people in the unemployment line.” 14:18 Mickey: It’s amazing how many people who are sophisticated and successful enough to get into these senior leadership positions who then shrink away from actually having open conversations with people. 14:34 Mickey: What do you say to these senior executives who seem to be otherwise competent but are afraid to actually give their people complete awareness of what is going on around them that might affect their ability to contribute? 15:30 Jim: Part of what these executives are holding as a false equivalent is that the pain of having the conversation is the flip side of the gain we have short and long term. There’s confronting that falsity. And also asking, “How do I have a conversation with this person that forwards what they care about and what we all care about together?” 16:18 Jim: That’s a different question than, “How do I give them some feedback that only hurts them in the smallest way possible?” That’s preparing for a different conversation than: “How do I give them the feedback they need to be effective in their job and satisfied in a way that has them be appreciative of the risk I took and the amount of information they get?” 16:58 Jim: It’s a more sophisticated understanding of the leader’s role than just, “My job is to do the best I can to avoid all possibility of having to stand up to fear.” No, fear and the challenges of it are the natural outgrowth of the position you’re in. 17:15 Jim: Not everyone is up for the level of leadership they’re being asked for. People aren’t always confronting what it’s really going to take to be a leader. It has them shrink from the opportunity that’s in front of them. 17:37 Mickey: One of the things we’ve seen in the nearly thirty years we’ve been looking at how leaders produce the most results per unit of time, money and stress, there are many people who get in positions of leadership and then shrink from the challenges that come with that position. 18:03 Mickey: One of the challenges of being a leader is your job is to get people connected to reality and give them the information they need to know how they’re doing relative to their own desire to make a difference. And then, provide an environment where they have access to all of the people and resources they need to improve. Moving from Formal Review to Frequent Conversation 18:24 Mickey: These are really important, informal conversational skills you were referring to. You can be with someone, can understand they’re frightened and disappointed because the results aren’t good. You can connect with someone on what is deeply important to them and help them recover their whole self, not just the scared part. 18:51 Mickey: There are some skills there. You mentioned earlier the issue about formal reviews and there are some companies doing some experiments to move away from these mid-year and end-of-year formal reviews. They’re now betting the everyday conversations are the leverage point for performance improvement. There was a study we used some years ago that showed formal performance conversations actually decreased performance. 19:32 Mickey: What is it about the formal conversations that doesn’t improve performance and what do you think is crucial for leaders if we’re going to move to this reliance on informal discussion to make a difference in the success of our organizations? 19:51 Jim: The structure that is used for a lot of these conversations actually prevent the conversations from happening. The idea is fill out this form, mark these numbers and somehow handing people the paperwork that’s headed to HR is the review and will cause the change you want. That’s nonsensical. 20:27 Jim: The preparation is great as a starting point for conversations; they are not the conversation. For people to move from annual or quarterly to way more frequent, highly leveraged conversations and discussions, it means a shift in how the conversation takes place so it really is more of a dialogue. It doesn’t depend on written sheets or checking boxes. 21:05 Jim: The second thing is to treat a review as a discussion. It goes both directions. What do you see that I don’t see? Where do I have points of view that I’m interested in getting informed and educated? How can I help shape what I see you doing as a person who works for me in a way that evokes and invites more of what you want to be excited about? Leadership as Partnership 21:30 Mickey: The formal environment creates this spirit of assessment, where you are now called into the principal’s office to be told if you are good or bad from someone who sits on high and can tell the difference. 21:50 Mickey: The reality of doing great work is we’re in it together. The way you’re speaking, it’s we are partners in improvement. Our best day is still to come, not behind us. We need each other because together we see things we can’t see by ourselves. 22:13 Mickey: That spirit you have of someone in a senior executive position an open partnership of improvement that allows all parties to contribute to one another is an act of leadership. 22:30 Mickey: The boss just fills in the forms the way you were talking about. The bastard is just annoyed and wants better people. 22:40 Jim: That’s right. “How did I get stuck with all these losers?!” 22:44 Mickey: “It’s amazing. There were a lot of these at my last company too; they must follow me.” The bastards don’t realize what they are actually procreating. 23:02 Jim: That kind of conversation doesn’t preclude the importance of corrective conversations. It’s not all a “Kumbaya” moment. 23:11 Mickey: Absolutely not. I’ve seen so many leaders do a terrific job of bringing up very difficult issues but they bring them up in the context of a purpose all parties care about, and being there to help the person make a bigger difference in they’re currently making. 23:57 Jim: Where it’s necessary, bad news doesn’t get better over time. What is important for leaders is to recognize that every day they delay moves them from Point Easy to Point Difficult to Point Crisis. 24:18 Jim: How can I engage in the conversation without having to know how it’s going to turn out and without having a clear sense of how I’m going to make difficult conversations easy. Sometimes difficult conversations are just difficult. My strong encouragement is having tough conversations is rarely as bad as we think it’s going to be, but I can almost guarantee you, not having them pushes it to a time that makes it even harder to have an outcome we can all be proud of.

Jim Kilroy, owner of Danish Country Antiques, knows what it takes to be a small business owner. Listen as he shares how he's stayed motivated for over 30 years, his best advice, and what it really means to think like an owner. Small Biz Stories tells the story of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet — small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Find us on Stitcher You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Jim: There was no hard part. You just did it. You had to do it. There was no choice. I wasn’t going to go apply for a job. I just had to do it. And I had to succeed one way or the other. My wife was pregnant. You know what I mean? I had no money. I had to succeed. It was as simple as that. And I did. I was lucky. Dave: Jim Kilroy, owner of Danish Country Antiques, is the sixth business owner we've interviewed for Small Biz Stories. Since starting the project three months ago, we've talked to people like Andy and Jackie, who sold their home to start their own artisan bakery. Then there was Peter, a man who loves cheese enough to roll a 400 pound wheel of it down a red carpet during his annual cheese parade. We heard from Marie, who keeps her business going by displaying her talent both online and off. And most recently, Jason and Chris shared how their efforts contribute to community development and make a lasting impact. With each story comes a new adventure, shaped by the owners and their unique points of view. But look closer and you'll start to see some unmistakable commonalities. These are people who hit the ground running on day one, and have followed through ever since. Their motivation comes from a strong desire to call the shots, as well as an unwavering belief in the value of what they do. Like a handcrafted Danish cabinet from the 1760s, these traits can't be forged or copied. When you see the real deal, you just know it. Today Jim shares how he has stayed motivated for over 30 years, his biggest business regret, and what it really means to think like an owner. More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Dave: Starting a small business, it doesn't take long to realize what you're up against. Listening to Jim talk about the early days of his business, you'll hear his determination, as well as the importance of having a support system to make it through some early challenges. Jim: I was going to do an antique store one way or the other. Dave: What year was that when you started the shop? Jim: That was in ’84. Dave: ’84?

In this episode of Bloody Angola, Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell you some stories you will have to hear to believe regarding inmate of Louisiana State Penitentiary who were sentenced to DEATH ROW getting exonerated after DNA evidence or other substantiating evidence cleared them of their crime and saved them from getting the needle.#DeathSentence #DNA #InnocenceProject #BloodyAngola #PodcastFULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Jim: And we're going back to our roots, Woody Overton.Woody: Right back inside the wire. Jim: Back inside the wire. Just when you thought we got out. Just coming back here. Woody: Yep. [crosstalk] They made me come back in. Jim: That's right. Look, we talk a lot on this show about the advancement, especially DNA, something you've worked with in the past many times. Woody: Yeah. This is a huge testament to DNA. When I started, it was really coming in its own. Now it's so much more advanced. I remember putting rushes on murder cases, and it taken six months to get the results back. Jim: That's crazy. Even back, we talked about Sean Vincent Gillis, and that was really probably one of the first times they were ever able to really rush something to the point where it really helped because you had to get that serial killer off the street. Woody: Derrick Todd Lee too. Still, even the rush back then took a long time. Not like it is now. Jim: Right. Woody: You know what? I'm totally for it. And let me do this real quick. I want to give a shout out to all our patrons. We love and appreciate each and every one of y'all. We love all you listeners, and bloody shooting to the top of the charts. It's because y'all are listening, liking and sharing. Please continue to do so. And we love y'all very much. Back to the DNA, it's just come leaps and bounds that continue to change every day. We always tell you Bloody Angola is going to be different, and this is different. You would think, oh, hard ass like me, lock everybody up, I don't believe in that. I believe if you're innocent you're innocent. Jim: If you're guilty, lock them up.Woody: If you're guilty, you- [crosstalk] Jim: Don't wait [crosstalk] Woody: [crosstalk] -you'll pay hella jail. Jim: [laughs] Hella jail, that's right. We did want to preface this episode with some of these guys were exonerated from DNA. Some of them, it was other reasons. And we're going to get into that. The intriguing thing about today's episode is many of these guys that we're going to tell you about were actually serving in death row. They've been sentenced to death. Woody: Today, we're going to be talking about people or convicts who were exonerated and released from Bloody Angola.Jim: Yes. We want to kind of start this off. I'm just going to tell you about the Innocence Project. The Innocence Project was founded in 1992 by Barry Scheck, y'all, familiar with him through OJ. It was basically formed to assist incarcerated individuals who could be proven innocent, primarily through DNA testing. Although sometimes they find so many holes in a case, they'll pick up a case where there's so many problems that they take that case on and look for exonerations in those cases. The average prison sentence before they'll take on a case is 14 years before their exoneration or release. And so, it's a process, even with those guys, but we're going to them to it. Woody: They don't just take anybody, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: One of the ones I can tell you about if-- ready to get started?Jim: I'm ready. Woody: Is John Thompson. John Thompson was from Orleans Parish. I'll just read you some of the facts of the case, some of the highlights, and what ultimately ended up happening. Shortly after midnight on December 6th, 1984, Raymond Liuzza was shot several times in the course of an armed robbery just around the corner from his New Orleans, Louisiana apartment. When the cops arrived, they found Liuzza laying on the ground, but he was still conscious. He told them he was robbed and shot by an African American male and then took him to hospital and he died. On December 8th, responded to tip, the police arrested two men in connection with the crime. John Thompson and Kevin Freeman. Photos of the two men were published in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, and soon afterwards, police received a call from a family that had been carjacked several months earlier, claiming that Thompson looked like the person who had robbed them. Thompson was charged with the murder. Meanwhile, Freeman agreed to testify against Thompson in the murder trial, and in return, prosecutors charged him only with being an accessory to the murder. He was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison. We're talking about Freeman, y'all. The world-famous New Orleans district attorney, Harry Connick, Sr,, not Junior, that's his son, the singer and actor, decided to try Thompson for the carjacking case first, knowing that a conviction could be used against him in the murder trial. Based primarily on the eyewitness testimony of the three carjacking victims, all of whom were minors, Thompson was convicted on April 4, 1985, and sentenced to 49 years in prison. That is for the carjacking. Y'all, always told you that eyewitness testimony is the worst testimony there is, but doesn't mean it's not true. At his murder trial, held shortly thereafter, the prosecution demonstrated that Thompson had at one time been in possession of both the murder weapon and a ring taken from Liuzza's finger. Thompson decided not to testify in his own defense because if he did, his felony carjacking charge would have been admissible to the jury. As a result, he was unable to tell the jury that Freeman had sold him the murder weapon and the ring. Freeman, the main witness for the prosecution, claimed that he and Thompson had robbed Liuzza together and that Thompson had shot him. This testimony was contradicted by the statements of eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen only one man running from the scene of the crime. Richard Perkins, who had originally called in the tip implicating Thompson and Freeman, also testified for the prosecution, claiming that he had heard Thompson make incriminating remarks. Thompson was found guilty and sentenced to death on May 8th, 1985. Fast forward a whole bunch of years, y'all, and events took a dramatic turn in April 1999, 30 days before scheduled execution, an investigator discovered that there was a blood stain from the robber on the clothing of one of the carjacking victims and that this evidence had never been disclosed to the defense. It's Brady, y'all. If they had it, they got to give it up. The prosecutor had ordered testing to determine the blood type of the stain, and in fact, they had rushed the test. But when the blood type was determined-- I guess this was before DNA. Blood type was determined and was different from Thompson's. They concealed it. Defense attorneys then obtained an affidavit Michael Rielhmann, a former district attorney, who said that five years earlier, in 1994, Gerry Deegan, one of Thompson's prosecutors, admitted on his deathbed that the blood evidence was intentionally suppressed and that he left a report about it on the desk of James Williams, the lead prosecutor. Williams denied ever seeing the report. Defense attorneys also learned that Perkins, the witness who testified that Thompson had admitted the murder, had received $15,000 from the Liuzza family as a reward. When this evidence was presented to the trial judge, he granted a stay of execution and dismissed Thompson's carjacking conviction, but he denied Thompson's motion for a new trial on the Liuzza murder. In 2001, however, he reduced Thompson's death sentence to life in prison without parole. Jim: Wow. Woody: Pretty crazy, right? Jim: Very crazy. Woody: In July of 2002, the Louisiana Fourth Circuit Court of Appeal overturned Thompson's murder conviction and remanded the case for retrial, ruling that the false robbery conviction obtained by deliberate government misconduct had deprived Thompson of his constitutional right to testify on his own behalf at the murder trial. Y'all, I'm not against that. I mean, give him a new trial, if it was messed up. At the second trial, Thompson was able to explain that he purchased the murder weapon from Freeman, and the defense called several new witnesses who claimed to have seen only one man fleeing the scene of the murder. They said that the man did not look like Thompson, but did resemble Freeman who, in the meantime, had been killed in a shootout with a security guard. On May 8, 2003, a jury acquitted Thompson after deliberating for 35 minutes, and he was released from prison the same day. Y'all, 35 minutes is for conviction? That's outstanding. But for exoneration, I mean, that's unbelievable. It normally takes hours--[crosstalk]  Jim: They were pretty convinced. Woody: Yeah, they want to make sure. In 2008, Thompson won a $14 million civil suit against the District Attorney's Office. That judgment was reversed by the US Supreme Court in March 2011 on the grounds that the misconduct in the case was not the result of a deliberate policy or systematic indifference by the New Orleans DA's Office. He got $330,000 in state compensation. But you know what? That's a long time to be on death row, and you didn't do it. Jim: He's a good example of someone that it wasn't necessarily DNA evidence that exonerated him, but it was the facts of the case. Woody: I have heard this case before, and actually, I think it's pretty well documented-Jim: Thank you.Woody: -but what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. But you know what the sad thing is? In 2017, Thompson died of a heart attack at age 55. Jim: Yeah, man. And you nailed it when you're talking about those bloodstains. Back when he was convicted, it was '85. There was no DNA. Woody: I think it was like '92 when the first time it was used successfully. Even then, most prosecutors thought it was junk science. So, it had to be used over and over again successfully and tested and tested and tested and it grew to what it is today. Jim: That's right. Let me tell you about another case out of death row in Angola that was actually-- Woody: That place you don't want to go.Jim: No, you don't want to go there. But was actually reversed over DNA, and that is the case of Ryan Matthews. So, Matthews was 16 years old, y'all, at the time he was sentenced-- or arrested rather, and was 17 when he was sentenced to death for shooting of Tommy Vanhoose, who was a convenience store owner in Bridge City, Louisiana. You familiar with Bridge City? Woody: Yeah. That's where the juvenile prison used to be. Jim: There you go. So, in April of 1997, a man wearing a ski mask entered the store and demanded money. When Vanhoose refused, the perpetrator shot him four times and fled, taking off his mask and diving into the passenger seat of a window of an awaiting car. Several eyewitnesses viewed the perpetrator's flight. One woman was in her car and watched the perpetrator run from the store, fire shots into her direction, and leap in the car. So, these guys were hightailing it. They done shot somebody four times. When she was later showed a photographic array, which is like a six pack, y'all, she tentatively identified Matthews as the assailant. By the time of the trial, she was sure that Matthews was the gunman. Two other witnesses in the same car watched as the perpetrator shed his mask, gloves, and shirt as he fled. The driver claimed to have seen the perpetrator's face in his rearview mirror while he was being shot at and trying to block the escape. The witness and his passenger were brought to a show-up hours later. The driver identified Matthews. His passenger was unable to make an identification.As per our previous case, identifications not very reliable now.Ryan Matthews and Travis Hayes, both 17 at the time, were stopped several hours after the crime because the car they were riding in resembled the description of the getaway car. They were arrested and Hayes was then questioned for over six hours. His initial statements to investigators, Hayes claimed that he and Matthews were not in the area where the crime occurred. Hayes eventually confessed that he was the driver of the getaway car. He stated that Matthews went into the store, shots went off and Matthews ran out and got into the car. Both boys were described as borderline intellectually disabled. In 1999, based mainly on identifications, Matthews was convicted of murder and sentenced to death.Woody: There you go. Jim: Hayes was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison. Matthews had maintained his innocence since the arrest. The defense presented evidence that forensic testing of the mask excluded both Matthews and Hayes. A defense expert also testified the car the two boys were driving, the reason they were stopped, could not have been a getaway car because the passenger side window that Matthews allegedly jumped through was inoperable and could not be rolled down. How do you get around that? I don't know, but they did. Other witnesses to the crime described the shooter as being much shorter than Matthews as well, which that's not necessarily that reliable. Height is hard to determine. Woody: You can put four people in the room and four people may get the different height and weight or whatever on. If it's a correct identification, basically you can bring them back two weeks later and they can still pick out the facial features.Jim: That's right. So, y'all ready to hear how this person got exonerated? Well, DNA testing in another murder case proved to be the keys to proving Matthews' innocence, another murder occurring shortly after Vanhoose's death in the same area. A local resident named Rondell Love was arrested. He pled guilty, and Love bragged to other inmates that he also killed Vanhoose. And that happens, y'all, you'd be surprised. Woody: Street cred. Jim: This got back to Matthews' attorneys, I'm sure, through Matthews, and they began to investigate Love. DNA test results from the second murder were compared to the results from the Matthews' conviction, indicating that Love had been wearing the mask that was left behind in the Vanhoose's murder. Testing on the mask, gloves and shirt had already excluded Matthews and Hayes, but they became conclusive after Love's profile was included. Woody: There you go. Jim: So somehow, even though they were excluded from all that DNA in the first trial, there was no one to necessarily pin it on. So, it got pinned on them. Well, you can't get around it when someone else's profile shows up. Over a year after this information was discovered, he was granted a new trial. He wasn't released. He was just granted a new trial. But he did eventually get released. The new trial, he was found not guilty and became the 14th death row inmate in the United States proven innocent by post-conviction DNA testing. Woody: That's crazy.Jim: After two more years of legal battles, you'd think he'd get out right away?Woody: They got to make sure. Jim: Yeah. Travis Hayes was released in December 2006 and exonerated in January of 2007. You may think that someone in this position, they must have got a ton of money. I mean, you sentenced to death, for Christ's sake. He received $252,000 in state compensation and another $133,000 from the federal courts. To tell you how resilient this cat is, in 2019, Matthews graduated from Texas University with his bachelor's degree. Woody: Cool. Jim: I get chills from that because, man, look--Woody: They were going to kill him.Jim: They were going to kill him. Woody: I get it, not to get into death penalty arguments, whatever, but I'm telling you this I'm glad John Thompson got off death row, and I'm glad he got off a death row, but I promise you, there's some monsters up there deserve to be there.Jim: Oh, there's no doubt about it.Woody: Don't deserve [crosstalk] to breathe. Jim: Well, it's like you always say, just make sure you get it right. That's the important thing.Woody: Yeah, that's it. If you're going to do it, do it right. Especially when you're talking about taking somebody's life. That's why they have the appeals process the last 20 plus years before they kill them. Let's talk about Glenn Ford. Glenn Ford from up in Caddo, that's where Hugo Holland-- Jim: That's right. Caddo--[crosstalk]  Woody: He was another one, y'all, sentenced to death. He was convicted in 1984. But let me tell you about it. On November 5th, 1983, a 56-year-old Isadore Rozeman, a jeweler and watchmaker, was found shot to death in his shop in Shreveport, Louisiana. His pockets were pulled, and items were missing from the store. One of the first people to be questioned was 34-year-old Glenn Ford, an affable man who did yard work for Rozeman. Ford denied being involved in the crime, though he admitted he had been near the store at some point earlier in the day and witnesses told police they saw him near the store. In February 1984, items from Rozeman's store turned up in a pawnshop and a handwriting analyst said that Ford had signed the pawn slips. Marvella Brown told police that her boyfriend, Jake Robinson, Jake's brother, Henry, and Ford were at her house on the day of the crime and left together after Ford asked "if they were going." Brown said Ford was carrying a brown paper bag. When the men returned later that day, Ford was carrying a different bag and had a gun in his waistband. Jake Robinson also was carrying a gun. Brown said Jake showed her a bag containing watches and rings. That is suspicious.Ford, along with Jake and Henry Robinson and a fourth man, George Starks, were charged with capital murder and conspiracy to commit armed robbery in February 1984. November 1984, Ford went to trial. And Ford was represented by two appointed defense attorneys, neither of whom had ever handled a criminal trial, and one of whom had never handled a criminal case of any sort. That's kind of bad. Jim: Yeah. That's not the attorneys I want to represent--Woody: Right. When you're on trial for your life. Jim: Oh, my God. Woody: If you're in Livingston Parish, you want Jasper Brock handling your business. [crosstalk]  Jim: Yeah. This is a death penalty trial. Woody: If you're anywhere else over on that side of Louisiana, you want Thomas Davenport out of Alexandria to handle it, because that's what they do. These guys had never even handled a case like this. Jim: It's crazy. Woody: Anyway, Brown fell apart on the witness stand and said on cross-examination that detectives had fabricated her responses and she had lied in her testimony. She said she had been shot in the head earlier in her life and the bullet was never removed causing difficulty with thinking and hearing. Jim: Makes sense.Woody: Several witnesses testified that they saw Ford near the victim's store on the day of the shooting, but no one testified that they saw the crime. A gunshot residue expert testified for the prosecution that after Ford had voluntarily come in for questioning, he recovered gunshot residue on Ford's hands. A fingerprint analyst said he lifted a single fingerprint from a paper bag found at the scene. He said that the print contained a “whorl” type pattern and that Ford had such a pattern, while the Robinson Brothers did not. Dr. George McCormick, Caddo Parish coroner, testified that he had analyzed the scene of the crime, including the position of Rozeman's body and a duffel bag found next to the body with a bullet hole in it. McCormick said he concluded that the victim was shot by someone who held the gun in his left hand. Ford is left-handed and the Robinsons are right-handed. Not looking good for Ford.Jim: No, not at all. Woody: McCormick also said that Rozeman had been dead for as long as two hours by the time the body was discovered, a time when witnesses said they saw Ford near the store. Ford testified on his own behalf, which most of them don't, but he testified and denied his involvement in the crime. He admitted selling items to the pawn shop, but said he'd got them from the Robinson brothers.On December 5th, 1984, the jury convicted Ford of capital murder and conspiracy to commit armed robbery. Following the jury's recommendation, Ford was sentenced to death on February 26th, 1985. After Ford was convicted and sentenced, the prosecution dismissed the charges against the Robinson Brothers and Starks. Jim: Let me just say this, okay, the inexperience of the lawyers that you mentioned is glaring when they allowed him to testify in his own defense in a death penalty case. Holy crap.Woody: I don't know when they changed the law, but I know Jasper Brock in Livingston Parish-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah. Jasper Brock would say, "He ain't talking." [chuckles] Woody: And I know Thomas Davenport, they're certified in death penalty cases. You have to actually get certified to defend somebody in death penalty cases now.Jim: Yeah. Probably, this case caused it.Woody: Probably one of them I mean, they should've known this shit was going to get done the way--[crosstalk] Jim: That's crazy. Woody: Still, I believe everybody has the right to a fair trial. Ford goes to death row. His appeals were unsuccessful until 2000 when the Louisiana Supreme Court ordered a hearing on post-conviction petition for a new trial filed by the Capital Post Conviction Project of Louisiana. At the hearing in 2004, a defense expert testified that McCormick's attempt to reconstruct the crime had no connection to known facts and were speculation at best, and I agree with that, they're talking about the coroner. You can't tell somebody's left-handed from a bullet hole and a duffel bag. Anyway, another defense expert said that the gunshot residue evidence was meaningless because it was gathered more than a day after the crime and that Ford could have easily picked up the residue merely by being in a police station where such residue is extremely common.Another defense expert said that the prosecution's fingerprint expert misidentified the fingerprint on the paper bag, and it could have been left by the Robinson Brothers. All very, very true. Ford's lawyers at the trial testified that they were very inexperienced in criminal cases. Jim: Even the lawyers. Woody: [crosstalk] -Jasper and Thomas Davenport. And had no training in capital defense. If I was Ford, I'd be raising hell. I'm like, "You got me two guys that are wet behind the ears. Give me a pro."Jim: Crazy, man. Woody: Jasper Brock or Thomas Davenport. They're even saying that he deserves--Jim: Yeah. They go on the stand and say, "Yeah, we pretty--" [crosstalk] Woody: One of the lawyers who specialized in oil and gas law had never tried a case to a jury, either civil or criminal. That's like my brothers. One's a tax lawyer and one's a maritime lawyer. They've never been inside a courtroom. The extent of his prior criminal work was handling two guilty pleas. That's easy enough. The other lawyer, who was out of law school less than two years and was working at an insurance firm handling personal injury cases. Both said they were unaware they could seek court funding for defense experts, shocker, and didn't hire any because they couldn't afford to pay out of their own pockets. Both were unaware of how to subpoena witnesses from out of state. So, Ford's family members, who lived in California, did not testify for Ford at the guilt or punishment phase of the trial. The defense presented numerous police reports that had never been disclosed to the defense.The report showed that Shreveport Police had received two tips from informants implicating only Jake and Henry Robinson in the robbery and murder. Other police reports showed that some detectives had falsely testified at Ford's trial about statements Ford made during his interrogation. Testimony that the prosecution should have realized was false, the defense claimed. Moreover, other police reports that were withheld from the defense contained conflicting statements by Marvella Brown and by the witnesses who said that they saw Ford near the store at the time of the crime. Reports could have been used to impeach the witness testimony at trial. Jim: Wow. Woody: But still, the post-conviction motion was denied. In 2012, the Caddo Parish District Attorney's Office began reinvesting the case, and in 2013, disclosed that an informant told authorities that Jake Robinson had admitted shooting Rozeman.Jim: Oh, wow.Woody: So, the honorable and right thing to do, in March 2014, the prosecution filed a motion to vacate Ford's conviction and death sentence in light of the newly discovered evidence from the informant. On March 11th, 2014, a judge vacated Ford's convictions, and the prosecution dismissed their charges, and Ford was then released. Jim: How about that? Woody: Even after all that, they'd fallen so hard in the second trial, etc. They came forward-- I think, you know what? I don't know if Hugo Holland was still the prosecutor up there at the end. I'll have to look it up. Maybe I'll ask him. He just messaged me last night. But that's an honorable thing to do. But in March 2015, a Caddo Parish district judge denied Ford's request for state compensation. Judge ruled that Ford knew the robbery was going to happen, did not try to stop it, that he attempted to destroy evidence by selling items taken robbery, and that he tried to find buyers for the murder weapon. Unfortunately, in June of 2015, Ford died of lung cancer. Jim: Yeah, that's a good kind of segue for a second, Woody, just to talk about, look, not all the guys we're going to tell you about today are Citizens of the Year. Some of them definitely committed some crimes or may have withheld some evidence, like in this case. But that's a long jump from being sentenced to death for a murder you didn't commit. Woody: Look, we have our legal process for a reason. A lot of my cases are bad cases where the witnesses are like really shady people or they're criminals themselves. Well, guess what? A lot of these crimes don't happen with a bunch of choir boys. You know what I mean? You're not running with choir boys when you're going to murder somebody and steal the jury. Jim: You're going to put them to death--Woody: But having two inexperienced attorneys and all the other stuff and the guy saying about-- whatever, that's not enough to kill somebody.Jim: That's right. We're going to give you a two for one right here. And you're not going to believe this. Woody: Let me tell you real quick, I know I keep talking about [unintelligible 00:31:23]. I don't know if this is-- we'll have to get him on. This part, he's a part of this Innocence Project, but I don't think it's the same one. Barry Scheck is another one. He got a guy off a death row. Jim: Wow. He'd be great to sit down and talk to.Woody: He got a guy off a death row. He told me about the case, and I was like, "Holy shit." But I think it was out of Missouri. He's in all federal courts and everywhere else, Thomas Davenport, but he believes everybody deserves a criminal defense. And I agree with that. If you're a cop and you got it right, you got them right. Don't sentence them to death, don't send them away for life on some bullshit. Jim: That's right. We're going to tell you about Michael Graham and Albert Burrell. Now, both of these gentlemen were sentenced to death back in 1986.Woody: I was 16 years old. Jim: That was a long time ago. Long time ago. On the night of August 31, 1986, 65-year-old William Delton Frost and his 60-year-old invalid wife, Callie, were fatally shot in their two-room home in Downsville, Louisiana, which is almost like a plantation area of Louisiana, very rural. The front door had been smashed in and police believed the motive was robbery because Frost didn't trust banks and was believed to keep cash in a suitcase in his home. A lot of older people, especially in those times, they didn't put money in the bank. They put money everywhere but the bank. The shots appeared to have been fired through a window and their bodies were discovered a couple of days later.Now, six weeks after the murders, in October of 1986, Janet Burrell told police that she had met with her ex-husband on the night of the crime and that he had $2,700 in $100 bills and blood on his boots. That don't look good. She said he admitted firing the shots and she saw Frost's wallet on the front seat of his car. Wow. That's dead to rights. So, Burrell was arrested within the hour. Not long after, Kenneth St. Clair, another witness, told police that he had come to Louisiana with Michael Graham to find construction work. St. Clair told police that on the night of the crime, Graham and Burrell left the trailer where Graham was living near St. Clair about 8:30 PM returned, Graham had blood on him, St. Clair said. Now, you've got another person seeing that blood. At the time, Graham was in the Union Parish Jail on forgery charges for stealing a checkbook from a woman who hired him in St. Clair to do some work and then cashing about $300 worth of checks. Woody: Like you said, everybody in these stories aren't angels. Jim: Yeah. On October of 1986, Graham and Burrell were each indicted on two counts of murder. Two days later, Graham's cellmate, Olan Brantly, told authorities that Graham had admitted he and Burrell committed the crime [crosstalk] [chuckles] that's it. And that Burrell had fired the fatal shot. So, Graham goes on trial in 1987 in the Union Parish Courthouse. The state's key witnesses were Janet Burrell, who we told you about, and Brantly, we also told you about. So, they got him dead to rights although police reports said that Frost's wallet was recovered in his home. A deputy testified that he believed Burrell had returned to the Frost home and put the wallet back because he suspected his wife had seen it the night they met. Woody: That makes a lot of sense, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: Why wouldn't you just throw it the fuck out-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, that's a stretch and a half right there.Woody: If you go back to the murder scene to put the wallet back, you got to think, "My wife might have seen it." Jim: [chuckles] Yeah. You're dumping it in the ditch or something. You're not putting it back. Another witness, 14-year-old Amy Opiel, who had spent the night of the crime with the St. Clair Family testified that she saw Graham Burrell sitting on the couch of a trailer with a suitcase and stacks of money. So, Graham was convicted on March 22nd, 1987, and sentenced to death. Burrell went on trial in August of '87, and he was also convicted and sentenced to death on pretty much the same evidence as Graham. Five months after Burrell was convicted, Janet Burrell, who by then was remarried to Burrell's brother James, I told you this was a good one, recanted her testimony, Woody Overton. She said she lied because she wanted to get custody of their child, which had been awarded to Albert Burrell prior to the murders. That's called motive to lie. So, the Louisiana Supreme Court, they grant--Woody: That's cold hearted.Jim: Yeah, that's cold.Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: That's as cold as you can get.Woody: How shitty of a mom does she have to be for the dad to get custody in the state of Louisiana? That's a rare deal. Jim: Well, somewhere along the line, her conscience weighed on her and she admitted she lied. The Louisiana Supreme Court granted Albert Burrell a hearing. A hearing. But at the hearing, Janet Burrell changed her testimony back, she's figuring it out, "Uh-oh. I might get in trouble for this," to her original story. The motion for a new trial was denied. Eventually, the conviction and death sentence got upheld by the Louisiana State Supreme Court. Meanwhile, Graham, don't forget about him, his case was also sent back for a hearing in motion for a new trial because of all this going on. His lawyers, they continued to get extension after extension, and they began to cover new evidence. By 1995, Janet Burrell shows up again. She says, "I'm going to recant my testimony again."Woody: She's unreliable now. Jim: Yeah. The crazy thing was, the execution date was in August of '96, she recants it in 1995. The lawyers, closer it gets to that execution date, they're 24 hours a day trying to get you a stay. 17 days away from his death, Burrell's lawyer obtains a stay. In 1998, Amy Opiel shows up again and recants her testimony, claiming she was pressured to lie and that it was St. Clair she saw with blood on his clothes and counting money. It wasn't Burrell. Okay, so Graham, he finally gets a hearing in 2000 where lawyers present all these recanted statements, as well as evidence that prosecutors failed to turn over, exculpatory evidence and impeachment evidence, including that Brantly had cut a deal with prosecutors on a pending charge, and then he was taking medication to control his mood swings. So, Brantly had a little bit of an anger problem, probably. On March 4th of 2000, Graham was granted a new trial after the Third Judicial District judge, Cynthia Woodard, ruled that prosecutors have misled the jury and failed to turn over exculpatory evidence. Woody, what is exculpatory evidence? Woody: Anything that could possibly make the jury find them not guilty.Jim: Yeah. On December 28th of 2000, they dismissed charges against Graham, and he was released from prison. This is a man that was 17 days from getting the needle. Woody: From executing.Jim: Yes. On January 2nd, you may wonder, "What about Burrell?" January 2nd of 2001, charges against Burrell were dismissed and he was released. Now, in 2016, a state appeals court upheld a lower court ruling denying Graham and Burrell compensation from the state of Louisiana. Burrell and Graham filed a federal lawsuit, but a jury ruled against them.Woody: They never solved the crime now. That's a cold case.Jim: Cold case. And here's the interesting thing. You may wonder why they're denying this money. Woody: It's hard. It's almost impossible to get a nickel for being wrongfully convicted.Jim: Exactly. Especially when you don't have DNA evidence to back it up, because basically that was so many inaccurate statements, but it didn't necessarily mean you didn't do it. It just means the people that said you did it were lying.Woody: A lot of times, if they have find gross negligence, they have to prove that DA actually did what they said that you did or whatever. Jim: That's it. Woody: Really, people don't really care about people that are exonerated, basically in paying--Jim: Those are two for one right there for you. Woody: A lot of states have a set amount. If you get exonerated, it's just whatever, which is crazy. There's no amount of money worth being on death row. In Angola, much less on death row. Jim: Yeah, the guy that was the singer that we did the episode. Woody: Yeah, Archie. Jim: How can you give that guy enough money? Woody: You can't. Jim: And he was exonerated on DNA evidence. He did not do it. Woody: You cannot give him enough.Jim: You can't give him enough. So, why are you putting a ceiling on it? Because every situation is different. Someone like that, you can't give them enough, but Goddang, you need to give them millions. Woody: They should never have to work or do anything.Jim: Period. Woody: Y'all, we will tell you another one, and this one is a rape and a murder. It's the case of Damon Thibodeaux, which is a good, strong Cajun name. And another Louisiana man that was sentenced to death row at Bloody Angola. On July 19th, 1996, at around 05:15 PM, 14-year-old Crystal Champagne left her apartment in Marrero, Louisiana, to walk to a nearby supermarket. When she didn't return home as expected, her mother went looking for her. At around 6:45 PM, her father and 21-year-old stepcousin, Damon Thibodeaux, also went out to look for her, as did several neighbors. The search continued until the following afternoon, when friends of the family heard that a girl who looked like Crystal had been seen walking on the levee. Y'all, if you're not from South Louisiana, levees are manmade walls that hold back the rivers or the bayous or whatever. Said Crystal been seen walking on the levee in previous evening. Not long after, Champagne's body was found near the levee. She was partially naked and had been strangled with a wire.Before the girl's body was found, JPSO investigators began interviewing people who had been with Champagne before she disappeared. An officer was interviewing Thibodeaux, who had been at the Champagne's home when Crystal left for the store. When he was informed that her body had been found, a homicide detective then took over the questioning. Thibodeaux initially said he knew nothing about the murder. He agreed to a polygraph test, which police said indicated deception regarding the girl's death. Uh-oh. Jim: And you being a former polygrapher--Woody: I'm still a polygrapher, actually-- it's just so hard. Basically, at that point, the polygraph is an interrogation tool. It's hard to clear somebody who's accused of murder if you're not good as fuck like me.Jim: [laughs] Woody: No, seriously. You got to set the questions, the questions that they lied to, their response has to be stronger than, "Did you rape and murder this girl?" Well, fuck you, you're in the hot seat. You're looking at a death penalty. It's hard to do. So, they failed him, whoever it was, I don't know who it was. They failed him on the polygraph, which, let me tell you, the polygraph is a long process, but it's basically made to break people down if they're guilty. And it's five or six hours. But I always said a good homicide interrogation doesn't even begin until after five or six hours. That's when you really start to get in that ass. Eventually, after nine hours of questioning, Thibodeaux said that he had raped and murdered Crystal. He was arrested and charged with both crimes. After he was allowed to eat and rest, Thibodeaux quickly recanted his confession, but was ignored. At Thibodeaux's 1997 trial, the prosecution built its case around his confession to the rape and murder. Dr. Fraser MacKenzie of the JPSO Coroner's Office, who performed autopsy on Crystal, testified the girl had been strangled to death and had injuries to her right eye and forehead consistent with getting hit by a bat or a rock. He noted bruises on the girl's buttocks, which he said indicated a struggle. He estimated Crystal had been dead about 24 hours before she was found. Separately, Dr. Lamar Lee, a professor of entomology at Louisiana State University, testified about the insect samples taken from Crystal's body. He said flies will lay eggs on a carcass within a couple of hours after death but will not lay eggs after dark. He said that the eggs were laid before nightfall--Jim: That's true?Woody: Yes. Jim: [crosstalk] as hell.Woody: Came out of the body farm originally out of Tennessee, but I didn't if they used maggots and the generation of flies, and they could tell you how long a body's been down like almost within 15 minutes. Jim: Damn.Woody: On July 19th, 1996, and calculated the age of the fly larvae or the maggots at between 24 and 28 hours old. They eat until they turn and fly, die and have more babies in cycle. There was no physical evidence linking Thibodeaux to the crimes, and though Crystal was found undressed, they found no semen on her body and no other physical evidence that she had been raped. A police officer testified that the semen could have been eaten by maggots. I guess.A week after the crime, detectives questioned two women they found walking on the levee. Both said they saw a man pacing and acting nervously on the evening of the murder. Both women picked a photo of Thibodeaux from a photographic lineup, and both identified him at the trial. Thibodeaux's attorney argued that detectives coerced the confession and suggested facts of the crime to him during their interrogation. On October 3rd, 1997, a jury convicted Thibodeaux of first-degree murder and rape. He was sentenced to death.Jim: Oh, my God.Woody: It's another one of our boys going up to death row.Jim: Death row. Woody: So, fast forward ten more years, in 2007, the JPSO district attorney's office agreed to reinvestigate the case with the Innocence Project and other lawyers who volunteered to work on the case. Now, DNA testing as well as other forensic testing was performed, and investigators interviewed numerous witnesses. The investigation revealed that the women who identified Thibodeaux as the man they had seen pacing near the crime scene had seen Thibodeaux's photo in the news media before police showed them the photo line-up. Moreover, the date of the sighting turned out to be the date after the body was found, when Thibodeaux was already locked up.Jim: That could be a problem. Woody: Right. Well, you know what, you got to give props to JPSO DA's office for even trying to reopen and look at this, because most of them are like, "Fuck you. I [crosstalk] conviction."Jim: Yeah, you did it. Woody: And he's on the death row. But extensive DNA testing on items recovered from the scene of the crime failed to detect any trace of biological material connecting Thibodeaux to the murder. Tests also showed that despite Thibodeaux's confession to rape, Crystal had not been sexually assaulted. And DNA testing on the cord used to strangle Crystal identified a male DNA profile that did not belong to Thibodeaux.Jim: Uh-oh.Woody: Well, doesn't totally excuse him. It could have been anything. Somebody else could have held the cord, and Thibodeaux could have been wearing gloves, we don't know. But the reinvestigation established firmly that Thibodeaux's confession was false. He claimed to have raped Champagne when in fact, no rape occurred. He said he strangled her with a gray speaker wire he took from his car, when in fact she was strangled with a red cord that had been tied to a tree near the crime scene. The prosecution consults an expert in false confessions who concluded that the confession was the result of police pressure, exhaustion, psychological vulnerability, and fear of the death penalty.Jim: Wow. Woody: Yeah. I mean, it can happen, y'all. I hope every day that I didn't get the juice from somebody on the wrong level, and I don't think I did. Anyway, on September 29th, 2012, he was released from death row. Thibodeaux later filed a federal civil rights lawsuit that was put on hold in January 2017. Like most of our guys, he died in August of 2021.Jim: Wow. Woody: But you know what? I know false confessions do happen. It's a real deal.Jim: Yeah. You'll confess to anything if you're tired enough.Woody: You had your ass [unintelligible 00:49:06].Jim: Yeah. Woody: [laughs] -eight, nine hours not eating, I mean, you're going to get the needle, da, da, da. It might have been, "Help me help you. You tell us what happened, we're going to tell that you cooperated." But the fact that he confesses and then they give him some food and he's like, [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. All right, we're going to give, y'all, one more today. We're going to tell you about a guy that definitely did not do it, was exonerated by DNA evidence, and that is Mr. Rickey Johnson. I saved this one for last today because he was in prison a long time for a rape he didn't commit. Matter of fact, he was in prison 25 years. Woody: That would suck. Jim: Yeah. One day in prison for something you didn't do, it sucks. All right, imagine 25 years. Let me tell you about the crime. In the early morning hours of July 12th, 1982, a 22-year-old woman awoke in her Northwest Louisiana home to find a man holding a gun to her head.Woody: Wow. Jim: The man raped the woman twice, stayed at her house for four hours. He told her his name was Marcus Johnson, and he mentioned several details. He claimed they were about his life. He claimed to be looking for an ex-girlfriend of his from Many, Louisiana. He said he was on probation. He was from Leesville, Louisiana. He even said he had relatives in the town of Natchitoches and Monroe. The weird thing is, he raped this chick twice and then he starts telling her his life story. It's almost like he felt like, "Now, we have a connection." Woody: Yeah, I got this special nut dumping connection.Jim: Yeah. What do you think the victim did? Woody: Pillow talk. Jim: She reports the rape the next morning, and at which point she told police her attacker was an African American man. He was between 5'6" and 5'8", and he weighed about 140 pounds. He had facial hair and a scarf tied around his head. A detective from the Sabine Parish Sheriff's Department contacted the Leesville Sheriff's Department to ask if they had a man named Marcus Johnson on file. There was no record of Marcus Johnson, but Leesville officers did tell detectives about Rickey Johnson. They said, "Well, we got another Johnson here. His name is Rickey. He's African American," and he was on probation for a traffic violation, a misdemeanor. Rickey matched some of the details that the lady provided of the perpetrator. He was from Leesville, he did have a child with a woman in Many, and he had relatives in Natchitoches and Monroe. So, he becomes a suspect. Nothing wrong with that. Police showed the victim a six pack, but it was actually only three pictures in this one. So, we're going to call it a three pack. Woody: Three pack. Jim: Yeah. It had Johnson's photo, which was at the center. Woody: I don't know how you get away with that.Jim: That picture was eight years old, and it was in the center. That's important. Mentally, you go to the center picture first. The victim told police that she had ample time to see the perpetrator's face and she identified Johnson as a perpetrator, even though he had a prominent gold tooth, which was never part of her description of the attacker. If a guy rapes you or a girl rapes you and they have a gold tooth, you're probably going to mention they had a gold tooth. Woody: You mentioned facial hair and everything else, and the gold tooth would stand out. Jim: Two days later, what do you think they do? They go arrest Rickey Johnson and they don't even investigate any other suspects at this time. They think they got their man. Johnson asserts his innocence. He says, "I didn't do any of this crap." Six days later, they conduct an in-person lineup with five individuals. Again, Johnson, they put in the center. And again, the victim identifies him as the assailant. The lineup was not presented at Johnson's trial because it was ruled inadmissible since Johnson did not have an attorney present at the lineup. I mean, it happens. Doesn't mean he didn't do it. Tests at the Shreveport Crime Lab determined that evidence collected from the victim at the hospital included sperm and serological testing that showed Johnson and 35% of the African American population could have been the contributor. So, that's basically no evidence. Too many people. Woody: Too many people are-- [crosstalk] African American. Jim: 35% of the entire population. Johnson was charged with aggravated sexual assault and tried before a jury in Sabine Parish, Louisiana. The victim identified him at trial saying she was positive. Woody: Game over.Jim: Positive that was him, and there was no question in her mind. She said the apartment was dark until about 15 minutes before he left. Prosecutors presented the victim's photo ID of Johnson and the serological evidence that his blood type matched the blood type of the perpetrator as determined--Woody: Back then, they didn't have DNA. They could give you blood types, basically. Jim: That's it. So, long story short, he gets convicted by the jury and he's sentenced to life without parole. Woody: Bloody Angola.Jim: Bloody Angola, baby, that's where you're going. So, Johnson contacts the Innocence Project at the suggestion of a guy named Calvin Willis, who was also a fellow inmate at Louisiana State Penitentiary. Willis was exonerated in 2003 after the Innocence Project secured DNA testing that proved his innocence. He basically called his boy and said, "If you really didn't do this, I got some people you need to talk to." Now, in late 2007, that DNA testing was performed on the sperm from the perpetrator of the crime. Remember, we said they had sperm. And the results proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Johnson could not have been the attacker.Woody: Wow. Jim: This is the first DNA exoneration using the new technology with DNA at this time called Mini-STR, which allows labs to accurately test degraded or extremely small samples. First time. [crosstalk] In January 2008, they do what anybody would do, they took that DNA profile and now they have a database in 2008.Woody: CODIS.Jim: Uh-oh. Woody: They got somebody else.Jim: They got a hit, Woody Overton. And John McNeal, who was already in prison serving a life sentence for rape committed in 1983 in the same apartment complex incidentally as the crime for which Johnson was convicted.Woody: How the hell do you not investigate that?Jim: It's crazy, ain't it? He's already in prison for that rape committed in the same complex. And so basically, they offer their apologies. After 25 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit, Rickey Johnson was released and exonerated in 2008 after 25 years in prison. The state of Louisiana later awarded him $245,000 in compensation. That ain't even close to what he needed. Woody: Did Johnson go beat that other guy's ass? [crosstalk] Jim: [chuckles] That's a good question. I couldn't find the answer to that. I'm sure he wanted to. Woody: [crosstalk] -find, you could. Jim: He would've got some inmate justice. Woody: Yeah. "Bitch, you knew I've been here all this time for this," and you know they all know what they're down for. Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: You get your David Constance been in there lying, saying, "My wife put me up, but not on rape charge."Jim: No. Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: In the same apartment complex.Woody: No doubt. That is crazy. Jim: It's freaking nuts. You would think that guy's already serving another life sentence. Why not just come clean and say, "I raped that girl"? Yeah, that's exactly right. Woody: Even convicts don't like rapists. Jim: That's right. Woody: Especially kid rapers and all that. Jim: That's right. So, long story short, he got $245,000 from the state of Louisiana. A federal wrongful conviction lawsuit was settled confidentially in 2011. So, he did get some money federally. Doesn't say how much. [crosstalk] Look, we hope y'all enjoyed these. Woody: We got to do more of these. Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: These cases you find, criminal mind is always fascinating to me, but this shit is--Jim: Love it. Woody: Hey, we're all about the Gerald Bordelon getting executed for raping and killing Courtney LeBlanc. We're all about--[crosstalk] Almost every one of these, except for Rickey Johnson was on death row. Jim: Yeah, something. There's been actually, for those of you out there that are playing trivia games, there's been 11 people released from Angola alone from death row based off of either DNA evidence or strong evidence to force an exoneration. Woody: I get that why people are against it. They say, "Oh, you kill one wrong, it's too many, shut it down." You haven't sat across the table or looked at the dead bodies and shit that I've looked at and looked in the face of evil. But hey, I'm a champion, and would go on-- As you know Jim, after my law enforcement career, I went on and defended people that were innocent, that I believe they were innocent. So, it is what it is. We're not totally one sided, but hell or jail or freedom. Jim: That's it. Woody: It's another great episode. Jim: Yeah. We loved it. Thank you, patrons, couldn't do it without you. Woody: Yes. Jim: If you're not a patron member, go join Patreon. We may do some of these just for patron members. Woody: Patrons get commercial-free, early release episodes and locked up episodes, which we probably have more locked up for Bloody Angola than I have locked up for Real Life Real Crime, so a bunch of them. All different kinds of stories. So, y'all go check it out. You can go to patreon.com and type in "Bloody Angola."Jim: Yep. /bloodyangolapodcast will pull you right to it. We appreciate it. We love each and every one of you. And until next time-Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman, your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim and Woody: Peace. [Bloody Angola theme]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell the story of Casey White and Vickie White who just last year led authorities on an 11 day manhunt following Casey White's escape from prison in one of the most adrenaline filled escapes in United States history.#CaseyWhite #VickieWhite #PrisonEscape #Podcast #WhenEvilEscapesCheck out past episodes on our website by clicking hereFULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And we're back with a new episode.Woody: We're back, y'all. And, hey, patrons, thank y'all so much for supporting us. And as any show does, eventually, we took, what, a two-week hiatus? Jim: Yeah, we dropped just for patrons for a couple of weeks.Woody: Right. But we've had meanwhile-- it's funny, we take the little break, and we go to number five again and we're kind of going viral on Bloody Angola and we won't take much time off, y'all, but sometimes it is what it is. That being said, we want to thank everybody and we welcome all you new listeners to this edition of Bloody Angola. What we told y'all, or I've told y'all in every episode of Bloody Angola, is you're always going to get something different. Today's case is really different, because while the story is not directly related to Angola, I can tell you it's directly related to Angola.Jim: [laughs]Woody: The case is about a guy named Casey White, who was a convict, and Vicky White, who was a correctional officer. And we're going to get into it but let me tell you this. I can tell you, I've seen it, I've arrested people inside the prison for doing it. What it boils down to is correctional officers and inmates fucking. Jim: Yeah.Woody: You wouldn't think, Jim, that that would happen, but it probably happens more than inmates doing it. I think the convicts use-- certainly some of the people locked up in prison are geniuses and they are master manipulators for whatever the crimes may have been. They find that weak person, male or female. We've done an episode on Bloody Angola about the lieutenant who was banging a convict. But it happens, male and female. So, it's a very real deal inside the prison. I told you, anytime you go behind those gates or the walls, that that normal rules don't apply. And it is what it is.Y'all, I've actually seen it. I'll tell you one case that really sticks in my head. There was a politician's daughter, and she was an attractive female, who was a correctional officer. Now, naturally, he got her the job and they gave her a cush job. She was in the canteen. She worked where they got all the snacks and shit from. She had an orderly who worked with her when-- we called him, really working her from behind, literally. Jim: [laughs] Woody: And somebody else had snitched on them. So, we set it up and waited for the opportunity and busted in. They were butt naked, and he was balls deep. She didn't get arrested because of who she was, but she got fired, and he got swung to the working cell block. Jim: Oh, very nice.Woody: But this story is super, super interesting. You know what? I told you correctional officers, some of the best people in the world, and then some of them that you work with that are worse than inmates. This story really shows how the human psyche can roll out, because you can be the best correctional officer for years and then sugar turns into shit. Jim: That's right. This is a good example of it. As Woody just told you, it's one hell of a story. The best place to start is, I want to give you guys and gals an idea of the background of these two subjects that we're going to talk about. The first one is Casey White, y'all. Now, to call this guy a stone-cold killer would really be putting it mildly. The first thing you notice when you see Casey White is his size. He's just flat out a giant of a human being. Woody: Like a freak of nature giant.Jim: Freak of nature, 6'9", weighed 330-- [crosstalk] Woody: There's not that many players in the NBA that are 6'9". Jim: There's probably not a bunch of people on Earth that are 6'9" and 330 pounds. And, y'all, this ain't fat. This is solid prison muscle. And prison muscle, as you've heard Woody talk about many times on Real Life Real Crime, is different than free people muscle. [laughs] Woody: Jim and I have been here before, and somebody came in to be a guest on the show, and I was like, "Oh, shit, that's prison muscle." Jim: Oh, yeah. You spot it right off, and that's what he had. The next thing you'll notice about this guy is his tattoos. Now, he has tons of them, but this isn't your typical barbed wire or if you're in the navy, you've got an anchor on your bicep or something. These are mostly white supremacist related tattoos. He was associated with the Alabama-based white supremacist prison gang, Southern Brotherhood. So, not a nice individual. In addition to being a freaking Jolly Green Giant. Woody: We need to cover this one day, and we will on prison gangs, different ones, maybe episode on each one. Let me tell you about the Aryan-based prison gangs. They're like the military. On your yard time, you have to work out. They work out in formation. They stay to themselves, etc. The prison muscle deal, if you don't work out and you're not swole, they'll beat your ass. If you don't do what they order you to do, they'll kill you. But at 6'9", 330 pounds, I bet you he was a shot caller.Jim: Oh, yeah. What we're trying to do here is paint y'all a picture of how intimidating this guy is before you even know even a shred of his criminal record. Now, you may wonder what's that look like. Well, get ready for this. Woody: Well, in 2006, Casey White was arrested on a domestic violence charge. But, Jim, it wasn't his wife. Domestic violence doesn't mean it's your spouse. In this case, he was arrested for beating his mama's ass. His own mother. Four years later, in 2010, he pled guilty to attacking his brother, another domestic violence, with an axe handle, and was sentenced to six years in prison.And, y'all, in December 2015, Mr. White went on another crime spree where he tracked down and tried to kill his ex-girlfriend. The rampage spanned both Alabama and Tennessee as he held victims at gunpoint, shot one woman in arm, killed a dog, and carried out a home invasion and staged multiple carjackings before he was finally captured in a dramatic police chase. Now, this spree unfolded on the morning of December 1st, 2015, when he broke into a home and stole two guns. Later that night, he turned up at his girlfriend's house armed with the stolen guns and opened fire on her and two men inside the home.Jim: Didn't even hesitate.Woody: He had it on his mind. After that, White then broke into another home and stole a man's car and another gun. Around an hour later, he shot another woman in the arm in an attempted carjacking in Tennessee before carjacking another person at gunpoint.Jim: This is all the same freaking weekend.Woody: He's just rolling. I mean, he's just straight up thug life. White was finally captured in a dramatic 100-mile-an-hour police chase that ended in a standoff back over the border in Alabama. Now, he's in a standoff. And during the standoff, he demands to speak to the sheriff and threatened to shoot himself in the head. He asked for a pack of Marlboro cigarettes and a Sun Drop soda before he surrendered. Jim: [laughs] Got to have them Marlboros. Woody: Got to get me them reds. Jim: That's crazy.Woody: Got to get that voice right. Well, he knew he was going back to prison. In 2019, White was convicted on multiple charges over the rampage, including attempted murder of his ex-girlfriend, and he got 75 years in prison. Jim: So, that's what kind of guy we're dealing with here. Woody: Real winner.Jim: I guess you could say, walks the walk and talks the talk when it comes to it. Woody: When you tat yourself up with Swastikas and shit, you're pretty much not going to get a job as a whatever, as an accountant. I mean, you're in for the thug life. He's proven it, and he has total disregard for the law and anything going on with it.Jim: Yeah, so he's right where he belongs. And while serving this 75--Woody: He's the reason they build Bloody Angolas. Jim: Yeah, that's right. While serving this sentence of 75 years, he's also awaiting a trial for the 2015 stabbing and murder of a 58-year-old mother of two named Connie Ridgeway. Now shortly after he got locked up for that 75-year stint, he provided a confession for that particular murder. Now, she was found stabbed to death in her apartment. This was in Rogersville, Alabama on the 23rd October of 2015. The case went unsolved for five years until White sent a letter to the Lauderdale County Sheriff's Office confessing to the crime. During a subsequent interview with authorities, he allegedly gave details about the crime that had not been made public which only the killer, y'all, would have known. Prosecutors say he was paid to carry out that hit. Woody: Got to make a living. Jim: Got to make a living. Look, his whole life, that's how he generated money, I'm sure. In 2020, he was charged with two counts of capital murder. Now, after confessing to the murder in which he initially pled guilty, he changes his plea to not guilty by reason of mental illness. Woody: See how that works out for him.Jim: Yeah, primarily because they were going for the death penalty if he was convicted in that case. So, there's no way at that point he's going to plead just straight up guilty. Now, if that's not enough to paint a picture of how evil this guy is, there's also the mysterious disappearance and death of his 2008 girlfriend. Casey White's then girlfriend, back in 2008, Christy Shelton, was shot in the chest by a sawed-off shotgun inside an Alabama home belonging to White's mother. Woody: The same mother he beat the shit out of. Jim: Same one he beat the shit out of. Ms. Shelton, who was 31 at the time, died at the scene. Now, White was in the home with her at the time of the shooting, but somehow, Woody, was ruled out as a suspect. Woody: Ah, look at that.Jim: That was his history. Back then, officials ruled the 31-year-old deaths as a suicide and the case was closed. So, he probably made it look like a suicide somehow. Ms. Shelton's family, of course, always doubted that version of events and it was never solved. That is the crimes, Casey White was convicted of and the ones he still faced justice for in 2022 when the incident we're about to tell you about took place. Woody: It's just a long, long storied history of being a piece of shit. Jim: His whole life. Woody: A hardcore piece of shit. Jim: Start out beating his mother and his brother. Woody: I mean, he's just the gift that keeps on giving. But again, that's why we build prisons, for murderers and pieces of shit like this. Let me tell you about the other side of this story. And that is about Ms. Vicky White. Now listen, they have the same last name, y'all, her and Casey White, but they're not related at all. They weren't married, not blood related, nothing. Just chances, I guess. White is a pretty common name. But Vicky White was a total opposite of Casey. At 56 years old, Vicky White was almost getting ready to retire from her career as a correctional officer. Rick Singleton, the sheriff in Lauderdale County, Alabama, was quoted as saying she was a model employee in all her coworkers. All the employees in the sheriff's office, the judges and all had the utmost respect for her. Now, Vicky White was a widow with no children and never had so much as a speeding ticket in her entire life. She was clean as a whistle. She is 5'5" and weighed 145 pounds. Now, we told you about him, 6'9", 330.Vicky, in 1997, she joined the Lauderdale County Sheriff's Office and she went on become the office assistant director of corrections. That's something special for a female. I mean, that's a big deal. In 2002, she and Tommy White got married. Now, that's not Casey White, y'all. That's her husband. They got married and she was six years younger than him, and they raised cattle on a farm. She later left him when his drug problems got out of hand in 2006 and she divorced him. But she was so respected and well liked. In fact, between 2015 and 2022, her peers voted her as supervisor or employee of the year four times.Jim: Wow.Woody: I mean, she was just jam up. After her divorce with her husband, Tommy, she remained friendly with him. In January 2022, he died from complications related to Parkinson's disease. She's getting ready to retire. She's 56 years old. She's put in almost her 30 years. She's risen as high as she can get in corrections, sans a warden, I guess. Then, she's liked by everybody. Jim: Yeah. Just a stand-up citizen in all--Woody: All aspects. Jim: Total opposite of the other guy. Now, I know you're wondering, you're probably saying to yourself, "What happened? How the hell did these two completely different individuals just get intertwined?" Well, in 2020, while serving down his sentence at the William E. Donaldson Correctional Facility, which is in Jefferson County, Alabama, Casey White came into contact with Vicky White. Let me tell you how they came into contact. He was at a state prison, but they would transfer him to her jail whenever he would have court appearances. He'd get transferred to the jail, he'd see Ms. White and he wanted to get him a little something-something, probably wink at her or whatever. Look, this is a big dude now. He ain't blended in nowhere. Woody: Yeah. I'm sure he started out, he floated her a little wink or something and she didn't reject it. So, that opens up his can of worms. Like, "Every time I'm going down, I'm going to try to lay a little smackdown on this girl."Jim: That's right. Woody: If can be honest with you, I'm totally confident in my sexuality, I could say this. But I think you look at a 6'9" guy that's 330 pounds, and you think everything is big on that dude. [laughter] Woody: He probably got 14-- [crosstalk] Jim: An anaconda in his pants? [laughs]  Woody: At 14, his anaconda, but he don't fold it in half for anybody. [laughter] Jim: Indeed. And I'm sure she was thinking the same thing at the time.Woody: She's 56 and [crosstalk] husband for a while. That's still cracker. Jim: So, they would see each other. Speculation now is that the flirting started, and she started calling him. She would call him at his state prison, and they just shoot the breeze. Look, this became a two-year thing.Woody: Yeah. Once I submit to you on that first phone call, it's going to be a shitty--Jim: Yeah. "What are you wearing?" That was what that question was on that first phone call. "Is it red panty night?" [laughs] [crosstalk] Woody: That may have been the second phone call. The very fact that he got it across that line of calling me-- now, I'm sure they say, "This is a collect call from an inmate at correctional center, da, da, da," she had to take the charge. Jim: That's right. They start this kind of phone thing and visiting thing, and it becomes a two-year ordeal. As a matter of fact, during the next two years, they formed a relationship and other inmates-- and look, inmates talk and inmates after the fact, after all the dust settled and this case became obvious, they came forward and said he would get extra food and special privileges from Vicky White every time he was at that jail. And they were pissed. They're not going to rat out the 6'9", 330-pound beast for sure. Now,in the months and weeks leading up to what will become his escape from prison, aided by Vicky White, and of course, unbeknownst to officials, Vicky was preparing. Vicky announced plans to retire on April 29th, 2022, which incidentally, y'all, was the same day of the escape. She sold her home on April 18th of 2022 for $95,550. Now, that's important because it was well below the market value of $235,000.Woody: Yeah. She wanted that quick money. She had plan.Jim: She wanted that quick money. Yeah. First person looked at it, "What if I charge you 95,000?" They were like, "Okay." She ended up selling it for a third of its value. She then moved in with her mother, Pat Davis, for about five weeks after selling that home. She started taking money out of the bank. She had a number of different banks. She was taking cash out of everywhere. So, she was preparing. She even went shopping for men's clothing at a local department store, Woody Overton. Then, she goes to the adult store.Woody: The men's clothing, she had to look in the big and tall section. Jim: Oh, yeah. You had to get probably some special stuff there. She goes to the adult store even and buys lingerie and sex toys. Woody: We had to put on the kinky.Jim: Yeah. Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah. This is all going on the weeks before the actual escape, and she even purchased, which would become an important point, a 2007 Ford Edge that was orange under a false name. Woody: Right. Now, we set it up for you. You know who he is, what he's about. The two faces that she put on, the professional face and now she's got-- well, they had a common face. She's lining it all, and he's telling her to do all this. But I think $95,000, we can get by, have some good times on that. On April 28th, 2022, Vicky White stayed at a Quality Inn hotel in Florence, Alabama. It was this day that she positioned the orange Ford Edge at a parking lot about 10 minutes from the detention center.On the day of the escape, at 09:30 AM, Vicky White told another deputy that she planned to take Casey White to a mental health evaluation in court and then would seek medical attention because she wasn't feeling well. While the jail policy states that inmates are always accompanied by two deputies, because she's who she was, Vicky White, and everyone loved and trusted her, no one even second guessed her decision. That's really using your power and your authority and your reputation.Vicky White then took Casey White, who's wearing an orange jumpsuit and shackles, and put him in a patrol car, and she drove away. As they left the prison, Florence City Council member, Bill Griffin, was outside shooting a commercial for his council district, and he saw Vicky drive past him with Casey White in the backseat. Well, not unusual. Griffin knew White and waved at her, and she waved back to him twice before driving off. Just a day at the office. She drove the patrol car from the detention center to a nearby shopping center parking lot and left the vehicle there. They then got into the orange Ford Edge that had been left there the night earlier and drove away. The patrol car was found abandoned in the parking lot around 11:00 AM by someone on a lunch break. Imagine that, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: When we say patrol cars, even every jail or prison, especially sheriff's offices, they have jail units. It looks just like a patrol car, like a uniform deputy patrolling in. But they have jail units that they can transport one inmate or time or go do whatever jail functions they need to do. That's what she did in this case. Officers at the jail became concerned and tried to call her but her phone kept going straight to voicemail. Then, they realized that Casey White had not been returned to the jail. The Ford Edge was found locked and abandoned in the middle of the road in Williamson County, Tennessee, about a two-hour drive north of Lauderdale County. Unaware of its origin, a tow truck driver, Robert Keynes, transported the vehicle to a local tow lot. At about 03:30 PM, officials realized Vicky and Casey White were missing. Now y'all remember when she bought the Ford Edge, she did it under assumed name so it's not tied to her. Once they realized that Vicky and Casey were missing, the Lauderdale County sheriff's office put out an alert on their Facebook page just before 6 o'clock in the evening. Jim: Wow. You can imagine the panic, y'all. This guy was a stone-cold killer. He just escaped your jail. I mean he is the worst of the worst. There's probably going to be violence at some point. Now in addition, you're assuming Vicky is a victim. Nobody is thinking at this time Vicky helped this guy escape. They're all thinking he must have overpowered or got out of his handcuffs or something. So, you call the cavalry. And that's just what they did. On May 1st, the US Marshals offer up to a $10,000 reward for information leading to the capture of Casey White. Vicky White was described as missing and endangered.Woody: In case you don't know, anytime there's an escaped inmate or convict, the US Marshals, they have a specialized division just in tracking down escapees. Everybody else would have been looking for them also, the sheriff's office and all the state police. But when you call in the US marshals, this division, all they do is eat escapees. Jim: Yeah. As Woody said, they start investigating and they figured out, and they figured out pretty fast. As a matter of fact, by the next day, they figure out that Vicky White was somehow involved in aiding him in this escape. On May 2nd, a warrant is issued for Vicky White, charging her with permitting and facilitating escape in the first degree. So, something happened. Woody: I'm sure they figured out that he actually didn't have doctor's appointments. She made all that shit up. Jim: Absolutely. And some other things. Actually, she and Casey White were caught on camera as well, which in reality, look, that was going to happen sooner or later. People don't realize it, but all of us are on camera. An average, y'all, you, whoever's listening right now, all of you, you're on camera an average of 70 times per day, whether it's going in and out of stores, pumping gas, sitting at red lights, whatever. Woody: Considering the Chinese spy balloons. Jim: Yeah, that's right. [chuckles] The particular video of the two that kind of tied it in for them shows Vicky White driving the patrol car straight from the detention center to the parking lot where it was found. She made no stops in between and that was an indication to police that there was some planning involved. On May 3rd, the Marshal service releases images of the orange Ford Edge that the fugitives were last seen driving, what they picked up in the parking lot. They left the patrol car, they got in the orange Ford Edge and the marshals added a $5,000 reward for information leading to the capture of Vicky White. So it's up to 15,000 now. The subject should be considered armed and dangerous and may be armed with an AR-15 rifle or a shotgun, the marshal's office also reported.Woody: And that would have been out of the marshal unit, y'all, the jail unit, they keep them in the trunk. Jim: It was at this point and still not discovered by police that Casey and Vicky ditch the Ford Edge and they pay $6,000 cash for a Ford F150. It is also at this time that they purchase a Cadillac, and they continue their escape with one following the other into Indiana.Woody: Interesting.Jim: Yeah. Look, this was actually well planned. Just to set the scene for, y'all, there's panic now. This guy is as bad as they get. He's on the loose. Now, you've got a former employee on the loose with him, because I'm sure she got fired quick. Casey and Vicky White drive that car into a car wash in Evansville, Indiana.Woody: That's a long ways from Alabama. Jim: Yeah, that's right. Their last location before that that was known was Tennessee, a place called Williamson County, which was 175 miles north or south of Evansville.Woody: And then, to Indiana is a long ways from there.Jim: Yeah. Period. Woody: He's smart. They're putting in miles. The more miles in, the less news coverage and all that. Jim: There you go. So, they pull into that car wash. They leave the F150 sitting in the car wash stall, and they get into the Cadillac, and they drove away from the car wash. Now, at this point, law enforcements still assume they're in that orange Ford Edge. Woody: Right. Well, what they did not know was that tow truck driver had towed the Ford Edge two days earlier after it was left in the middle of a roadway. When he saw a news report on May 5th looking for that vehicle, he recognized it, and he called the cops and told him what tow yard it was in, and he brought them to it. The US Marshals found the Ford Edge in the tow lot and confirmed it was the one used by Vicky and Casey White.On May 8th, a few days later, another big break in the manhunt took place when investigators were notified about the Ford F150 abandoned at the car wash and its possible connection to the fugitives after the curious car wash attendant viewed surveillance video to try to find out who left the truck in his car wash and then recognized the fugitives. Jim:  Naturally. Woody: And they're pretty easy to recognize. Remember, it's anaconda and shorty. [chuckles] Woody: So, on May 9th, US Marshals release images dated May 3rd from the Evansville car wash surveillance camera of a man believed to be Casey White in the Ford F150. Y'all, they're also established in what direction they're headed, basically and that they're swapping vehicles. And the car wash surveillance video showed the suspects leaving the F150 and getting into that Cadillac. Jim: So now, they know what they're driving, at least at that point. Woody: Right. At this point, the Evansville police, where the two were last seen, had the Cadillac burned into their brain and they were looking everywhere for it. An Evansville police officer spotted the Cadillac vehicle at a Motel 41 and alerted other investigators. They began the surveillance of the motel and observed Vicky and Casey White exiting the motel and getting into the Cadillac. Police began to pursue the Cadillac and the fugitives fled north on the US Highway 41 in Evansville in the Cadillac. In the pursuit, Casey White and Vicky White drove onto a grassy field and parking lot near an industrial area of the city. A law enforcement officer rammed a vehicle into the car, flipping it onto its side in a ditch. It's like movie shit. You can't make this up, right? Jim: Yeah. And this was the Evansville, Indiana police. Woody: That's called a PIT maneuver. And maybe they didn't do it correctly. They flipped a Cadillac, dude. Officers reached the duo in the car, and they took Casey White into custody and found Vicky White with a gunshot wound to the head, and what investigators believed the time to be a self-inflicted or suicide y'all. She died in the hospital that night from her injuries. The Indiana coroner's office ruled the death as a suicide. During the arrest, Casey White referred to Vicky White as his wife and said he did not shoot her. They were not believed to have been married, talking about Vicky. Jim: Yeah, he just called them. They weren't legally-- Woody: Hell, he might have got an ordained minister through the thing or whatever, he might have married them in the hotel room. It's funny, it's not the Motel 6. It was the Motel 41. Jim: Motel 41. Only the best for that guy. Woody: Investigators found four handguns, a semiautomatic rifle, three magazines. That's not GQ magazines. People commonly refer to them as clips, magazines with bullets. They found wigs and about $29,000 cash in the vehicle. Casey White spoke for a lengthy period with investigators and said that they had planned to have a shootout with the police. The fugitives had been staying at the Motel 41 in an attempt to lay low for a while and had paid for a 14-day stay after paying a homeless man $100 plus the room cost to book the room for them. So, they had somebody else book it for them. Jim: Yeah. A homeless man at that. Woody: Now let me tell you this, anytime I had a BOLO for somebody that might be in my area, guess where I'm going to check first? The Motel 41 or whatever the local one is. In Albany, it was the Albany or whatever. I mean, you're going to cruise those places first. What they didn't know was cops had the Cadillac. If they didn't have a Cadillac, they'd have got away with it. If they didn't have the Cadillac on video like you're talking about, we're all on video so many times. Jim: That's right. That was a big key. There were a lot of questions to be answered, especially in regard to Vicky's death. We're going to play the 911 call for you now. One thing we didn't tell you in what we just told you was that right before the Cadillac got rammed, Vicky placed a 911 call. However, the operator picks up and she doesn't respond to the operating. They pick up, they say, "911, what is your emergency?" Normally, someone would say, "I'm in a chase with the cops," or something. "We don't want them shooting at us." She doesn't respond to that. It sounds like someone that would have dialed the phone in their lap and just left it sitting there so that the operator could hear what was going on. This is my impression, but I'm going to kind of let you gather your own impression. Right now, we're going to play that audio for you. This is Vicky White calling 911.Vicky: Hi. Operator: Evansville 911. Vicky: Oh, my Good. Operator: 911.Vicky: Please stop, the airbags are going to go off and kill us. Operator: Hello?Vicky: Casey. Oh, God. Airbags are going off. Let's get out and run. We should've stayed at the fucking hotel. [screams] [police sirens going off] [background noise] Operator: Hello?[police sirens going off][background noise] Jim: You hear things in that audio like, "Wait," "Stop," "Airbags are going to go off and kill us." Soon, you hear a loud noise. Now, the first of at least four loud noises to happen in about 15 seconds. It's unclear in each instance what the noise represents and it's kind of unclear from the audio when the car was rammed, when it rolled over and when the gun was fired. You do hear a woman, which is Vicky, saying, "God, airbags are going to go off. Let's get out and run." And she even mentions a hotel. The second noise you hear, you hear kind of shriek. And at least two more noises follow, followed by another shriek. You can hear sirens in the background. But this is the question I want y'all to ask yourselves, and that I certainly asked was if you're about to kill yourself, you're not worried about airbags going off, you're certainly not worried about getting out and running. So, I kind of call bullshit on that.Woody: And you wouldn't have dialed 911. Jim: And you wouldn't have dialed-- yeah, I call bullshit. Woody: I personally think what you're thinking is at some point in her pursuit, she realized, "Holy shit, he's going to kill me. I want 911 to at least be able to listen to it." Basically, what you just played is Vicky, a voice from the grave saying-- naturally, she knew she was culpable in all this, and at some point, she realizes, "Holy shit, he's going to kill me." Jim: Yeah.Woody: Jim, you may be 100% correct, but while Casey has not been charged with pulling the trigger against Vicky, he is being charged with felony murder in connection to the death of Vicky White and he's been indicted. The indictment says Casey White is responsible for Vicky White's death because it happened during Casey White's escape. Well, I get that, and that's a whole lot easier to prove than the fact that he killed her in a car. But I'm saying that he killed her in the car. Y'all want to read you a news release from the Lauderdale County Alabama's District Attorney. This news release is titled "Casey Cole White indicted for the felony murder and the death of Vicky White, July 12, 2022." On July 6, 2022, a capias warrant was issued for the rest of Casey Cole White for the offense of felony murder regarding the death of Vicky White. The warrant was issued based on the grand jury indictment. White, who is in the custody of the Alabama Department of Corrections serving a 75-year sentence due to the convictions from Limestone County, was served with the warrant yesterday at Donaldson Prison. He is also charged with capital murder for the 2015 murder Connie Ridgeway. The felony murder indictment alleges that during the course of an in furtherance of committing escape in the first degree, White caused the death of Vicky White, who died from a gunshot to the head. As are all criminal defendants, White is presumed innocent of the charge. No further information will be released by this office at this time. Chris Connolly, Lauderdale County District Attorney." Jim: That's pretty interesting because even though they're still saying that she killed herself, they're saying because of his involvement with her, that was almost the cause of it.Woody: It's the same thing. I go to rob a bank and you're driving a car and I kill somebody inside the bank, you're getting the murder charge also. In this case, because of the pursuit and whatever, she wouldn't have been in that situation.Jim: Right. Very interesting. One thing I will throw in here is a little caveat and a fun fact for y'all. The Motel 41 that you brought up, get this. Six months after that murder, tt was completely booked up. The same room that they stayed in for all that time. Woody: Yeah. Jim: Yes, people love it. "Yeah, I want Casey White's room." They could actually say that they slept in Casey White's room at the Motel 41. Woody: That's crazy. Jim: So, Motel 41 was loving it. [laughs] Woody: They're probably still loving it. Jim: Probably still loving it.Woody: They're going to love it after this episode. Jim: Yeah. Go check out the Motel 41. Maybe they'll sponsor Bloody Angola. [laughs] Woody: Yeah. Right. They can give us a free room when [crosstalk] Casey White room. We do a TikTok. Jim: The Casey White honeymoon suite. Woody: Very unique story. Jim: It really is.Woody: It happens every day. Think about all the ones, especially Angola, where these people, 6000 of them, certainly a certain percentage have to be masterminds and master manipulators. I've dealt with a lot of them. Like David Constance. He's not as dumb as he looks. He looks like a little troll, but the dude's a genius. Not formally educated, but he's a genius on playing people. It happens. Correctional officers are begging inmates, correctional officers are the largest reason that inmates get contraband, whether it's cell phones or dope or whatever. You can get more dope in prison than you can on the street. And it's probably cleaner, less fentanyl. But the sex part, everybody is here because two people screwed. Everybody on this earth, they just happen to find the vulnerable ones. Jim: That's right. Woody: And do what they do. Jim: You may wonder what's next for Casey White. I mean, he lived. He's back in jail. Well, in August of this year, 2023, he'll finally go on trial for the 2015 rampage that we told y'all about.Woody: Yeah, he should get death penalty.Jim: In that particular instance, he's charged with killing two people. As Woody discussed earlier in this podcast, he will most assuredly spend the rest of his life, if not get the death penalty for that.Woody: Some people just don't-- a rabid dog need to be put down because if he gets out-- he's proven, if he ever gets out, he's going to kill and maim and do whatever. This dude's definitely living for the moment. They found $26,000 out of the $95,000 something she sold her home for. He's living for the moment in the end. He planned on shooting out with cops anyway. He's like, "I'm going to be the--" [crosstalk] Jim: He told them that in interviews after.Woody: "I was going to shoot it out with y'all. I was going to kill as many of y'all as I can." Basically, he wanted to get killed too. Jim: That's right. Woody: He wanted to be that bad ass motherfucker, right? Jim: Yeah. The thing is, Woody, he's even said many times that had the vehicle not been flipped, he would have had that shootout. He just couldn't get out. He was pinned in.Woody: So, that 6'9", 330-pound anaconda. [crosstalk] Jim: Monster, man.Woody: Big dude. I don't know if I've ever met anybody-- Well, Shaq, I think it's a little taller than that, but that's a monster of a dude. Think about this, y'all, for every extreme case like this where they help him escape and all that, think about all the correction officers that are getting laid every day by convicts that never get found out. Jim: Never get found out. And you mentioned Shaq. Look, we're going to deviate just a second because I got a good Shaq story for y'all that I'm going to tell y'all, you may like. For those of you that may not realize, we record out of Baton Ridge, Louisiana area. And, of course, Shaquille O'Neal, Shaq played for LSU and back when he was in his college ball days, he was very well known around here. And much like Casey White, and it's worth pointing out those sized people stand out no matter where they're at. So, the first thing that I wondered with Casey White was he never would have been able to ever, ever, ever go in public anywhere for the rest of his life anyway because he stands out like a sore thumb. Just look for the guy that's 6ft 9in tall with tattoos. Woody: With swastikas.Jim: Yeah, I mean, it would have been obvious in that situation. But back to my Shaq story. I was in the mall and at the time, I was dating a girl and she was like 5ft tall, literally. I was probably 17 at the time. He might have been a sophomore at LSU. We're walking through a mall in Baton Rouge, and there he is. He's like looking at watches like in the breezeway there. I was coming out of Dillard's with my girlfriend. I asked the lady for a paper bag and a pen. So, she gives it to me. I told my girlfriend, I said, "Go get Shaq's autograph." She walks up to him and gets it but, y'all, Shaq is like 7'2". Standing next to my girlfriend, he's signing this thing, this is before cell phone cameras, sadly, but I saw it in person, it was like a two-year-old standing next to a full-grown adult. That was the size difference between those two.Woody: I got a couple I'll throw on you real quick. The same time, Shaq and Chris Jackson and all of them [crosstalk] I was at LSU. Reggie's, which we talked about on the last episode of Real Life Real Crime Daily, it's where Madison Brooks got overserved, that used to be called the Tiger. I lived in the first apartment right behind the Tiger. I'd go to the Tiger every night. Shaq, he was in the bar, and I went up, stood beside him, he was like a mountain of a man. Jim: Yeah. And Woody's tall. Woody: Yeah. I'm 6'2". But fast forward, I don't think anybody knows this. Shaquille O'Neal was a commissioned officer with the Killian Police Department. Jim: I forgot.Woody: Now I am going to tell you why. Not only did he have a house down there, but he is a big diver, scuba diver. He bought all the scuba diving equipment and the boat and everything for Killian Police Department. They're on the water down there on the [unintelligible 00:46:52]. He was instrumental in funding the dive rescue team and recovery team. Jim: Really? Woody: Killian Police Department. Yeah.Jim: I didn't know that.Woody: And he's [crosstalk] with them. Super, super cool guy, down to the earth. He's getting up there in age like me. But it is what it is. One of the best. Now, how we got on that from Bloody Angola, I don't know. Jim: [laughs] Well, we're talking about height and how these people stand out and that was just a few little for me and Woody, but just an enormous human. Woody: You're right. They absolutely would stand out like that. But this dude took it-- I'm talking about Casey White, took it to the whole next level, on getting tatted up with racist tats. Who's going to come up to him and say shit? Shaq might have said something to him but anyway.Jim: He is, Woody, the prime example that you can point to as someone who never, ever needs to be out of prison, ever. Woody: Yeah. Absolutely. Jim: Just a horrible human.Woody: They build prisons for that dude. Jim: They build prisons for them. Woody: Patreon members, thank you so much. Jim: Couldn't do it without them. Woody: I couldn't do it without you. Y'all, if you want to be a Patreon member, there's a ton of episodes locked up and get commercial-free early releases. Jim: And let me say this, Woody. I had a few people reach out, and I just want to explain this. They were asking with the regular episodes weren't dropping them every week. I just want to explain, and we appreciate all of you. Look, I love it when people say, "Where's the next episode?' I love that. I want everyone to understand, when you're a patron member, you don't miss any weeks. We're going to give you something, whether it's just Woody, whether it's just me, whether it's both of us, you're going to get extra and you're going to get bonus stuff. Sadly, this stuff is not free. And it is expensive for us to produce this podcast. It requires a lot of time, a lot of research. And so, with the regular feed that is just absolutely free, we unfortunately have to limit what we can put out there. If we were to a point where Nike would sponsor us or something, look, we're all over it. But if your Patreon member is $10 a month for the starting tier, and you get episodes every week.Woody: Even the higher tiers, I came in yesterday to record, you had a stack of packages that were going out. Jim: The Warden Team members. Woody: Warden Team members. I'll be looking for those. [crosstalk] Jim: I've got some good little swag this time. Woody: We give you a lot of benefits in that, and that's just a way to help us keep going and we give back, whether it's in the form of the commercial-free episodes or the episodes that nobody else is getting, the ones that are locked up. Look, some of those, I consider to be my favorite, the ones that are locked up haven't been released to the public. Jim: That's right. We've got probably about 10 of those now. If you're not a patron member yet, look, you can go to Patreon right now. It's $10 a month for that opening tier, and you got 10 episodes in there you ain't never heard.Woody: And you get commercial-free early releases. Basically, you get episodes if we have weeks of not dropping them.Jim: That's right. Don't forget about the other things we do. Woody, Real Life Real Crime Daily, Real Life Real Crime.Woody: Real Life Real Crime Daily. I would have let the cat out of the bag here first. Real Life Real Crime Daily has been such a success, about to take it from three days a week to four. Jim: Boom. Woody: Starting-- that's next week.Jim: Big deal, y'all. That means you're going to get either a Real Life Real Crime original or a Daily every day of the week. Woody: Five days a week. And Bloody Angola. It's a lot of recording, it's a lot of time. But you know what? The numbers don't lie. Y'all are the best fans in the world, and we appreciate you. Jim: That's right. We love doing it. Woody: And we're blessed. Jim: Yeah, don't forget about the app. Bloody Angola. You can get episodes straight through the app. Woody: That's the Real Life Real Crime community app. Jim: The Real Life Real Crime community app. So, you can download that on Apple Podcast. You can also do it on whatever Google's-- for Android. Woody: Yeah. Jim: Google Play Store. Woody: Yeah, just go you go to the App Store and download it. Jim: Yeah. So, that makes it easy, y'all, you can get it there. Woody: Respond to everybody in one place. We just have so much other social media, it's almost impossible now. Jim: That's right. Woody: It's a good problem to have, Jim. Jim: Yeah. [crosstalk] Woody: Y'all are a great problem to have. We love you. Jim: We love you very much. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim and Woody: Peace. Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This Thursday on Bloody Angola: A Prison Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman We bring you the story of Corey Miller, the brother of famed rap entrepreneur Master P and sibling to a business dynasty known as No Limit Entertainment.In 2009 C-Murder was sentenced to life in prison with no parole and made his way to Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola but has always maintained his innocence.With stars such as Kim Kardashian and Monica advocating for his release, Woody and Jim bring you not only the case itself but some information you will hear for the very first time.#nolimitrecords#masterp#CMurder#truecrimepodcast#rap#truecrime#kimkardashian#louisianastatepenitentiary#angola#woodyovertonpodcast#bloodyangola #JimChapmanPodcast #WoodyOverton #RealLifeRealCrimeThe Rise and Fall of C-Murder!FULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this edition of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Look, we've gotten more requests of this really in the past couple of months than we've ever had.Woody: Right. It's a really, really interesting case, actually born out of Louisiana, but known worldwide.Jim: Global.Woody: We're going to tie it into Bloody Angola but let's tell you about the case first. See, y'all today we're going to be talking about Corey Miller, also known as C-Murder, and he was a famous Deep South rapper. Corey was part of No Limit Records, and his brothers include the founder of No Limit and rapper Percy Miller known as Master P. And Vyshonn Miller known as Silkk the Shocker, and his nephew, Romeo Miller, known as Lil' Romeo.Before we tell you the full story regarding C-Murder, we have to tell you where he came from. He was born and raised in the very rough 3rd Ward Calliope Projects of New Orleans. His oldest brother, Percy, known as Master P, was a basketball star in high school and received a basketball scholarship to play for the University of Houston. However, Percy dropped out months into his freshman year and transferred to Merritt College in Oakland, California, to major in business. After the death of his grandfather, Percy inherited $10,000 as part of a malpractice settlement and opened up a record store called No Limit Records. Jim: That's right. In 1990, his older brother Percy released his first cassette tape. Yep, cassette tapes, remember, y'all?Woody: Cassette tape. [crosstalk] Jim: It was called Mind of a Psychopath. In that same year, he became Master P.Woody: Master P.Jim: Now, that same year, Corey's brother Kevin was killed in New Orleans. Master P, he kind of used that as motivation to get his record label off the ground and get his family out of the New Orleans projects where they were from, y'all, in the third world, the Calliope Projects. Very, very, tough, tough neighborhood. Woody: Let me tell you about this real quick. Let me interject. In the prison system in Angola or DCI, wherever you're at, all the convicts will refer to-- someone asking, I'll say, "Where are you from?" "The city." Well, the city means New Orleans. They automatically say, "What ward?" New Orleans is broken down into wards, most famously known for the 9th Ward. But each ward had its own project. Now, that's not a derogatory term. Back then, before Katrina, you literally couldn't go two blocks in any direction, even if you were on St. Charles in the richest neighborhood and you hit--Jim: Where Mike lives.Woody: Right, where Mike Agovino lives, and you hit projects. These are big high-rise buildings that the government used for low-income housing. They had their own police force even though they're part of NOPD, but they wouldn't even go in there for a shots fired call unless they had two or more units. Jim: That's right. Woody: It was rough. Jim: Yeah, it was rough. Obviously, oldest brother Percy, known as Master P, it was his goal to get his family out of the ghettos of New Orleans. It was kind of from this start that No Limit Records became a full-blown empire. Master P, in particular, became a beast in the way of business investments. I mean, just about everything this guy touched turned into gold. He was no idiot at all. No Limit invested in all kinds of successful ventures. They had an energy drink company, a sports management company, a publishing company, fast food companies. No Limit Enterprises became so successful, in fact, that in 1998 alone, the company grossed $110,000,000. Woody: That's a lot of duckies.Jim: That is a lot.Woody: Homegrown, right? Jim: Yep.Woody: Corey Miller was growing, y'all, at this time as a rapper, and his rap name was C-Murder. I know y'all have heard of that. Corey was the top of his game, and he had been the focal point of No Limited Records, and he was one of the wealthiest and most popular artists on the label until February 12th, 2002, when a Jefferson Parish grand jury indicted him for the murder of 16-year-old Steve Thomas in a New Orleans nightclub. In the early morning hours of January 12th, 2002, Deputy Brian Singleton received a call to respond to a shooting at the Platinum Club in Harvey, Louisiana, y'all, which is a suburban yours. When he arrived, Officer Singleton observed a large crowd of over 100 people screaming and running out the door of the club in a hectic state. As he made his way through the crowd, he observed over 100 to 150 people still inside. It was at this time he saw the victim, later identified as 16-year-old Steve Thomas, lying on his back, suffering a single gunshot wound to his chest. Deputy Singleton leaned down and tried to speak to the victim, but the victim was unresponsive, and the deputy radioed for medical assistance. Jim: Now, other deputies, they started to arrive, and Deputy Singleton then requested that all the doors be locked and all the officers start canvassing the club. They were going to get statements. Woody: Right. It's an active crime scene.Jim: Darnell Jordan, he worked security at the club that night, and he stated that a fight broke out between the pool table and the dance floor, and 15 to 20 people were beating down the victim. He said the victim was lying on his back and kind of trying to cover himself up. Turtling, as we call it. He was getting kicked and punched. That is when he kind of ran in and he tried to break up the fight.He said he grabbed C-Murder and told him, "Hey, man, chill out." C-Murder responded, "Aight." He then said he heard a gunshot. He also stated he never saw C-Murder kick or punch the victim, but he was about a foot away when C-Murder reached his hand into the pile of people, and the next thing he knew, he saw a flash at the end of it. In the 911 call, it's important to mention that Darnell never mentioned knowing who the shooter was. It's also important to mention that his story has changed many times regarding the identity of the shooter. Woody: Right. Which makes his testimony not worth a shit. But Denise Williams, who was also interviewed that night and said that the shooter was an individual named Derek Taylor. Detective Donald Clogher, who had been handed the lead in the case, stated that he could tell she was not being truthful, and later she admitted to having lied. She stated it was because she was fearful for her own safety, although she never identified C-Murder as the shooter. Corey Miller agreed to give a statement but was not willing to offer a recorded statement. He said he was, in fact, at the Platinum Club the night of the shooting, and he was talking to the DJ when heard the shot and was pushed out of the club at that point by an unknown individual.One of the key points, y'all, is that the detectives made note of during the questioning was that he asked about specific facts of investigation, inquired as to if witnesses were cooperating and was fishing to find out who they were. The detectives believed he was asking all these questions so that he could ascertain anyone who was cooperating with police to make threats upon them if they talk. They're talking about C-Murder, y'all.Jim: Yeah. And, Woody, you've interrogated countless amounts of individuals. Is that something that would raise a flag with you if they were asking--?Woody: Yeah. That's almost like people coming back to revisit the crime scene to watch or whatever and interjecting themselves in an investigation. The fact that he's coming back in and he's like, "Who's talking? Who's talking?"Jim: Yeah. "Y'all got any information on the case?"Woody: "Who's talking?" That's definitely the right red flag. Jim: Almost showing too much interest in what's going on. Kenneth Jordan was also a witness at the club that night. Now, he stated that the celebs, they get to skip the line and that although a metal wand is used for weapons checks, y'all have all seen that, the airport or whatever, they scan you up and down with that metal wand. He stated they don't really do that for celebrities, of which C-Murder was one. At this time, y'all, he was big. He was killing it everywhere, everything he touched.Woody: No pun intended.Jim: Yeah, [chuckles] no pun intended. He stated there was a rap contest that night, and the victim was in the contest. He said after the victim got off the stage, someone in a CP3 hoodie ran up and attacked the victim. And, y'all, let me tell you about CP3. CP3 stands for the Calliope Projects. It's basically CP and then 3 is for Third Ward, which is what hood C-Murder grew up in. Kenneth Jordan continued to say that the victim was fighting for his life when he got jumped by six or seven people and that C-Murder was not throwing punches and just watching the fight. He said once the fight was over, Corey Miller stood over the victim and shot him once in the chest.Now, it's important to note that this entire statement by Kenneth Jordan took place about a year after the murder. The case was brought up to Kenneth Jordan when he was in another case as a material witness involving the death of his baby. He said he did not initially speak to police because he feared for his life.Woody: Yeah, that's--Jim: A year later.Woody: So, on February 28th of 2002, C-Murder was indicted, y'all, for the murder of Steve Thomas. In September of 2003, he was convicted. However, in 2006, the Supreme Court overturned his conviction, and Corey Miller was granted a new trial based on the claim that prosecutors improperly withheld criminal background information on three of their witnesses. The defense, who was not made aware of the criminal records of the witnesses, stated they would have attacked the credibility of those witnesses if that information had been turned over. That's Brady, y'all. Everybody, you've got to turn it over. Jim: I do wonder though, Woody, you would have thought a defense attorney, when they see a witness list, they would just run a background check. Woody: But they don't have to, because under the Brady law, everything the prosecutor has in their file, they have to give it to them. So, the criminal records would have been in the file, but guess what? Somebody pulled them out. Jim: I got you. Technicality. Woody: That's why it was turned over. The state of Louisiana decides in 2009 to give it another shot. They set a trial date for August of 2009. This is where things get stupid crazy. Just three weeks from the trial date, a friend of C-Murder's named Juan Flowers comes out and says that he killed Steve Thomas. The questionable thing really was his confession, or with his confession was Juan Flowers was already serving a life sentence in jail by this point. It's not uncommon for lifers to try to admit to other killings to save their friends. Believe it or not, the other issue is that he changed and recanted that confession several times after that. So, the trial moves forward, and on August 10th, 2009, Corey Miller, C-Murder is convicted again and sentenced to life with no parole in Bloody Angola. Jim: Wow. Look, that confession by Juan Flowers, that's something that the attorneys for C-Murder and those that are fighting for his release, that's something they bring up. The issue with that is this guy really had nothing to lose. He was going to spend the rest of his life in jail. Woody: He was going to die in prison.Jim: He was a friend of his. Woody: If he can get C-Murder, this famous rapper off--[crosstalk] Jim: Famous friend.Woody: Famous friend. And get him off by saying, "Hey, you know what? I did it." Jim: Yeah, he can get favors in jail for the rest of his life. Woody: I mean, his family would have been taken care of and everything else. Jim: Yeah. He did come out after making that statement and basically recanted the whole thing and said, "I didn't kill him." So, C-Murder in Bloody Angola. Two weeks after he was sentenced, guess what? He gets an additional 10 years added to his sentence for a court case involving the attempted killing of two people in a Baton Rouge nightclub in 2001, y'all. And I remember this vividly. Now, Miller was in Club Raggs. That was a club in Baton Rouge, which was very, very popular.Woody: Hotspot. Jim: Hotspot. He got in an argument with security after refusing to allow them to search him. He yanks a gun, pulls the trigger on a bouncer, and the nightclub owner, and guess what? Gun jam.Woody: Gun jam.Jim: Thank God for that. He's probably glad that it jammed too, because he didn't get charged with murder right there. This was all captured on camera. One of the bullets actually ejected after the jam. That's how close it was to going off. So, you know that he actually pulled the trigger if one of the bullets ejected.Woody: It just didn't fire. Jim: That's right. It's really important to mention that he was free on bond with that case when the case with the nightclub incident involving the killing of Steve Thomas took place. That's huge. Woody: It's crazy.Jim: You know what? Stay out of the bars at that point. You're already in trouble, and you go out and this happens. Time marches on, and C-Murder, he's kind of working through this appeals process, which it pretty much gets exhausted in 2014. Then in 2018, Kenneth Jordan? You remember those two Jordans I told you about, which incidentally, they're not related. Kenneth Jordan, one of the prosecution's star witnesses, comes out and states he was pressured to finger Miller for the killing or face a 10-year sentence for another crime he was involved in. Then the very next month, the prosecution's other star witness, Darnell Jordan, recanted his statement, stating he was detained and locked in a hotel room by police who pressured him to testify against Miller. And, y'all, as I said, these guys are not related. They just share the same last name. Woody: It's crazy. I'm going to interject a little bit of a personal knowledge about C-Murder, Corey Miller, y'all. So, he's up in Angola. He's doing his time. He's famous. Like I said, he's doing his time. Whether he could have told who the actual shooter was, if he wasn't or whatever, he's living by the street code. He ain't saying dick. But he's doing his time, not letting his time do him. Now, my mother-in-law was the head of security for the visitation room at Bloody Angola. Guess who is very popular to be visited? Corey Miller. All right, I'm going to tell you, I talked to her. My wife talked about it and I listened last night because I remember her telling me about C-Murder back in the day when you brought the story up and said, "Call her and ask her anything that she could tell us about him." All right. What she said, he was very tall, maybe 6'6". Jim: Listed as 6'4".Woody: But this is her memory. She said he was skinny, not real muscular, but it showed that he worked out some prison muscle, but he was still skinny, but said he was very nice. He liked you. He was super polite to you. And he liked you, he let you know it. Master P, his brother, would fly in on a helicopter and land inside the wired Angola, and they took him to the ranch house. Now, we talked about the ranch house in past episodes. Ranch house is where Burl Cain would hold his meetings with dignitaries, and they would cook them the prison meals and all that. Well, guess what? Master P got to have his visitation in the ranch house. It's pretty cool. She said that they developed this personal relationship, and she called him C instead of Corey Miller. Sometime during his incarceration, he had a video that came out, and C actually asked my mother-in-law to go watch and say, "What do you think of the video?" Jim: Wow. Woody: She told him about what she thought of it. She said there also was another famous short rapper in there, she couldn't remember his name, that couldn't stand C-Murder. Jim: Come on. Woody: Yeah, so there was a beef between them. They couldn't have visitation at the same time, everything else. They probably would have killed each other. Jim: Wow. Woody: So, she was made aware of that. He told her directly. He said, "You know what? I believe I have more purpose in this life." She said he would stop in the visitation room while other people were there in there. It's a massive room, y'all, with all these tables and some vending machines, and they get screened. Family members come in, and people would come up to him while he's in his visits, say, "Hey, will you give me your autograph?" And he'd do it. Said he was a cool, nice guy. Said he took good care of his girlfriend. His girlfriend came every other weekend to visit. She doted on him. Also, the son of the girlfriend thought of C as his daddy. And he had a big family, and they would come see him almost all the time, every chance they could. The family also went to every one of his court dates during this appeal process we're talking about. But check this out, C-Murder, all hardcore, right? Was a mama's boy. Jim: Hmm.Woody: Absolutely doted on this mama. She said his mama was a big woman, big boned, and she always wore a T-shirt that said "Free C-Murder" when she came to visit. Jim: Wow. Woody: Master P ended up buying their mama house on Tchoupitoulas. She got to hang out with him and talk. You know what she said? If you didn't know he was in prison for murder, she said, "Hell, we were friends. He could have spent the night in my house." Jim: Wow. You've got some scoop there, Woody Overton. Look, that's inside info. Woody: That's the Bloody Angola scoop.Jim: You can't get nowhere--[crosstalk] Woody: Bloody Angola scoop. So, that's a personal account. Of course, she's now long since been retired, probably five or six years. Jim: Very interesting. A helicopter, huh? Woody: Helicopter flying inside the wire and getting private visitation at the ranch or whatever. Jim: That's pretty cool. Woody: All right, so, y'all, he was popular. In 2020, a series of tweets were placed by a very well-known celebrity and influencer, Kim Kardashian. Everybody knows about Kim. She joined the fight to free C-Murder after hearing all the inconsistencies in his case. In a series of Twitter posts, she stated she is teaming up with R&B singer Monica, C-Murder's ex-girlfriend, in the fight to get the 49-year-old rapper's murder conviction overturned. "My heart goes out to the family of Steve Thomas. I can only imagine how hard this is. My intention is to never open up this painful wound, but to help find the truth behind this tragedy. True justice for the young man requires that the person who actually killed him be held responsible and that Corey Miller be returned home to his kids." Y'all, that was Kim Kardashian's statement. Jim: That's right. With no further ado, we'd like to welcome our guest, Kim Kardashian, to this sh-- No, we-- [crosstalk] Woody: Kim, how are you doing?[laughter] Jim: But, Kim, if you want to come on--Woody: Kim, didn't you just graduate from law school? I think she did. Jim: [laughs] I think you're right. She's not really here, y'all. Woody: Yes, she is.Jim: If she'd like to come on, come on.Woody: You can just bump up the ratings. Kim, come on down. Jim: That's it. Yeah. A lot of people out there advocating for C-Murder and think that he, for lack of a better term, got screwed on his conviction. As recently as March 3rd, y'all of this year, so just occurring-Woody: Last month. Jim: -last month, C-Murder is making headlines, and his manager released a statement related to a recent hunger strike he's undergoing to protest conditions at Elayn Hunt, where he was transferred in 2018 from Angola. In 2018, commonly-- well, I don't know how common it is, but prisoners will get transferred to different prisons after being at Angola so long. [crosstalk] Woody: It could be some security reasons also. Like that little rapper my mother-in-law was talking about, it could be he used his influence and maybe Master P can't afford a helicopter anymore. And Elayn Hunt is a hell of a lot closer to New Orleans than Angola is, being right outside of Baton Rouge, y'all, in St. Gabriel. It's pretty crazy.Jim: In these hunger strikes that they do, this is common. One of the most powerful ways that convicts have to protest, especially conditions in prison, is through starving themselves. And it gets attention. Woody: Not Burl Cain's, let me tell you that.Jim: Not Burl Cain, yeah.Woody: Burl Cain is on tape. One inmate or convict came up and said, "Warden, I need to talk to you." Well, Burl Cain knows his business. He told him, the inmate, the convict, said, "Aren't you on hunger strike?" He said, "Yes, sir, I am." Burl said, "Well, boy, I'm not goi--" Not boy. Jim: [chuckles] Woody: He said, "Sir, I'm not going to talk to you while you're on hunger strike. You go ahead and get you a good meal and I'll come back and talk to you." Jim: There you go. So, he didn't put up. But we're going to read this statement from his manager regarding that. It says, "On behalf of the Miller Family in an ongoing campaign to have justice served, Lisa Jackson, publicist, and Steve Johnson, manager for Corey Miller/C-Murder, are requesting the release of information to the public about Corey and his current situation at Elayn Hunt Correctional Center. We are asking Kim Kardashian, as the prison reform legal team representing Mr. Miller, to help bring immediate public awareness to Corey's situation, wrongful conviction from the state of Louisiana, the state of Louisiana's suppression of evidence, inhumane treatment conditions at the prison, and it is imperative now more than ever that a quick strategy move is made as his health has significantly declined due to the prison system's inhumane conditions. Fortunately, and unfortunately, we have a disturbing visual and written information about Mr. Miller's situation." He goes on to say, "Mr. Miller recently passed out. He received no follow-up medical care in response. And because Mr. Miller asked for and did not receive an investigation in the circumstances of his passing out, he was placed in solitary confinement as retaliation. Corey continues to suffer from chronic dental issues that have led to significant weight loss and have been denied much needed thyroid medication because the state of Louisiana says they cannot obtain the necessary medications. Because conditions at Elayn Hunt have not improved, Mr. Miller is engaging in a hunger strike that began on February 23rd to bring awareness to his and all his inmates' neglect and abuse at the hands of the penal system. The neglect of inmates in the penal system has been well documented by Mr. Miller and others." So, basically, his manager, he's basically saying Corey Miller ain't doing so well right now. Woody: Yeah, well, you know what? Listen, I'm going to call bullshit--[crosstalk] Jim: I knew you would. [chuckles] Woody: You can only go like five days without eating or less time without water. I'm pretty sure C-Murder has gotten couple of Ramen noodles passed through his door or whatever. The whole medication thing and all that, if that's true, they better believe they're going to get that shit straight. But one of the reasons they may have moved though to Elayn Hunt is they do have a, believe it or not, a better medical staff. I can't say better, but they have more access to the local hospitals and everything else. So maybe he's needing to see specialists? I don't know.But the problem with this, y'all, is Steve Thomas is dead. From what I understand, this garnered a lot more national attention. What was the show? I like that show. They go in and investigate cases and see if there's been an injustice in it. He was on this show. And, Jim, you sent it to me. Actually, he was on it by phone interview but his family, his ex-wife and his daughter brought this cracker jack investigative team in, one that was a defense attorney, the other one was a career criminal investigator like me, and they investigated the case. Jim: Yeah. And it was called Reasonable Doubt. Woody: Reasonable Doubt. That's it. I think it's like Season 2, Episode 3 if you want to check it out. They worked it. And C-Murder basically said on the phone, basically he knew did it, but he ain't saying. Jim: Yeah. The interesting thing about this show was they brought up several key points of evidence. One was the fact that somebody had confessed to it. We already told y'all the story there. The guy just is not believable. He keeps changing his story. In addition to that, they brought up a chain. There was a chain that-Woody: That Steve Thomas was wearing. Jim: -Steve Thomas was wearing that when he got killed. Somebody yanked that chain off him.Woody: Yeah, during that fight with the beat down. Jim: The DNA did not match C-Murder's DNA. Woody: It really didn't match anybody.Jim: Correct. Woody: He couldn't be excluded or whatever, but it doesn't matter, y'all. DNA is not like you think it is. Just every time you touch something for a second, doesn't mean your DNA is going to be on it. They proved it by an expert that if somebody just grabbed and yanked it off, chances of their DNA being on there are very slim. Jim: Yeah. They basically dispelled most of the cases, I guess, for his release. There just wasn't anything there. In that interview, as Woody said, where C-Murder was actually on the phone, I guess you could say he alluded to the fact that he kind of knew who did it, but he has a code that he lives by.Woody: One of the witnesses said that it was one of C-Murder's crew that actually pulled the trigger. They exited the club and when they asked them where the weapon is, and they said they threw it in the Mississippi over a bridge coming back in New Orleans because Harvey is across the bridge. Jim: Yeah, and the problem with that was C-Murder was with them and he becomes a what? Woody: Accessory. Jim: Yeah.Woody: Same thing. He would have got-- Principal 2-- Louisiana Vice Statute 1427 principal 2, basically accessory and he'd have gotten the same charge. But they said he's standing up and doing his time. It is what it is. Jim: It is what it is. Woody: I don't know how you get it, but he's no longer in Bloody Angola. But he did some time. Jim: Yeah, and as of this recording, he's still serving the rest of his life in prison for this. Look, man, if you didn't do it, you're going to have to say who did or you're going to ride that sentence out till you die.Woody: That's it. Jim: That's just the bottom line. We wanted to bring this episode to you. We had a lot of people ask us too. There were a lot of questions with regard to C-Murder. He's a very popular part of society, even still 21 years after this has taken place. Woody: Well, people don't even know that he was a veteran. Jim: Yeah, he was. That's right.Woody: A military veteran. The same war that I was veteran of, the first Gulf War. You'd think him and Master P, they display themselves as the gangster life, whatever. Master P got a college education. Jim: Let me tell you, that is a persona and that guy is a businessperson. You cannot reach that level of success in life without being very smart and have a very high business acumen. That's the bottom line. Woody: I think when you start believing your own height, and certainly you're the most popular person at nightclub held about 400 or 500 people, y'all, Platinum did or Platinum, whatever they call it. Supposedly, Steve Thomas was on stage rapping. It was like a rap battle. He got off the stage and maybe C-Murder's crew didn't like it and they gave him the beatdown. Jim: Well, there was even a rumor out there saying that in that contest, he out-rapped everybody else and a lot of people were saying he was better than C-Murder, and that basically he was killed because of that. And C-Murder responded to that in that TV interview and said, "Man, I have way too much to lose. I'm not going to kill a guy because everybody thought he was better than me that night or whatever." I believe that. I don't think that's why.Woody: A lot of people said that Steve Thomas was actually C-Murder's biggest fan. Yeah. Jim: Yeah. His own family. His mom and dad said he had posters of Master P. Woody: He's a huge C-Murder fan. Jim: Yeah. Woody: He ended up dying, [unintelligible 00:34:08] for them. You know what? The silent code-- A lot of times I say the streets talk, that's what they say. The streets talk, but a lot of times, they don't. In this case, he wants to die in prison for that. Now, I think it's too late. All these people recanting stories and all that, it's just to validate you as a witness on the appeals process. My prediction is like Rocky 3. They ask Mr. T, "What's your prediction?" "Prediction is pain." My prediction is C-Murder is going to die in the custody of the Department of Corrections. Jim: Yeah. Just a tragic waste to what-- He could have kept on going and just rocking it in the rap world. We say it all the time, I say this a lot, and that is you're one decision away from ruining the rest of your life. Woody: One split second, man. [crosstalk] Jim: All it takes. Woody: That's it. Jim: Yeah. And he's a prime example of that, sadly.Woody: Lifestyle called him. Y'all, I want to thank our Patreon members. You are absolutely the best. Jim: Oh, they are. Couldn't do this without them.Woody: Curious every single month. Our Bloody Angola is rocketing up the charts. This past week, it jumped 20 something. Jim: 22 spots. Woody: 22 spots. I predict next week after Real Life Real Crime Dateline--Jim: 22 more spots. Why don't you put it in negative too? [crosstalk] [laughs] Woody: We're going to be in negative too. I predict we're going to number one, y'all, but Patreon members, we couldn't do without you. If you want to become a patron, you can go to patreon.com and type in Bloody Angola. It has all the different tiers. Jim: We do transcripts on there, Woody, for our upper tiers. But even the very first tier, you're going to get commercial-free early episodes every week. We release extra and bonus episodes as you go up those tiers. Woody: [crosstalk] -episodes. Jim: Yeah, we got several locked up that nobody's ever heard on the regular Bloody Angola series. Woody: And never will. They're for our Patreon members. You know what? It takes money. This is a business and takes money. And we love doing it. We're always going to do it. Y'all have been so great to us. If you would, make sure you subscribe and like us, and if you get a chance, go, leave us a review.Jim: Very important. Those have kind of slowed down as of late. So, please.  Woody: Leave us a review. We love and appreciate each and every one of you.Jim: And look, we got a Facebook page. We don't want to forget to mention that. Go to the Facebook, give it a follow. It's been building. I love seeing those analytics on Facebook grow and grow. That's just what it's been doing. But nobody will know if you don't tell a friend. Woody: Also, every week now, we're going to list every single episode of Bloody Angola in the Real Life Real Crime community app. Also, the advertisement, whatever the episode is going to be, if you're scrolling through that app, you'll be able to see it there also. Jim: Yeah. Go to Real Life Real Crime, download the app and you'll have access to those episodes. Last thing we want to mention. This is Thursday, so tomorrow, 8 o'clock Central, 9:00 Pacific. Real Life Real Crime, two-hour special, Who murdered Courtney Coco? Dateline, NBC. 16 million viewers.Woody: 135 million in 30 days. Jim: Wow. Woody: Between their podcast and everything else. And y'all, horrible story. We were very blessed to have Lifers and fans, and most of them are fans of Bloody Angola also, y'all helped solve that case. Go tune into it. Share it. It's a beautifully tragic story.Jim: It really is. It'll give you the amazing story of this man across from me and what he did and went through to really see that justice was done for Courtney, which is amazing.Woody: I'm going to do a little spoiler alert, if I could say it, spoiler alert. One day we can do an episode of Bloody Angola at the conclusion of a Dateline story because somebody's in Bloody Angola. Jim: Yeah, that's right. Tune in, please. 9 o'clock Pacific, 8 o'clock Central on NBC on Friday. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Unison: Peace. Jim: [laughs] [Bloody Angola theme playing]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, We continue to cover the stories of those inmates eventually executed at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, from the crimes to their final walk.#Louisianastateprison #AngolaPrison #BloodyAngola #TrueCrime #Podcast #WoodyOverton #Podcasts #Deathchamberpart2 #deathchamber #Execution #ConvictOur Sponsors for this episode have a great deal for you!GET 16 FREE MEALS PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!Full Transcript Death Chamber Part 2[Bloody Angola theme]Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Bloody- Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Thank y'all for listening and liking and sharing. Please continue to do so. Leave us a review wherever you listen up in your podcast. And Patreon members, we appreciate y'all, you rock. Thank you for your continued support. This one, we're going back to one that got a whole lot of interest and-- [crosstalk]Jim: People loved it.Woody: Well, I love it.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I guess, you're twisted y'all, right? We're going to tell you about- Jim: Death chamber.Woody: -death chamber stuff.Jim: Yeah, Part 2.Woody: Execution. Yeah, Death Chamber Part due. Jim: Part duh.Woody: Duh.Jim: Yeah. So, we're going to get into it and what we do with these folks-- If you hadn't listened yet, you can go back and listen to Death Chamber Part 1. The good thing about these is we cover just individual convicts that were executed at Angola. We tell just a little synopsis of their crime, and they got some really interesting final words in there for these guys.Woody: [crosstalk] -things like that.Jim: People just loved it the first time, so we're going to continue with it. I'll start out with our first convict up for, I guess, grabs today, and that is Leslie Lowenfield. Leslie Lowenfield was executed in 1988, and he rode the lightning.Woody: Yeah, he graduated-- [crosstalk] Jim: Electrocuted. Gruesome Gertie. Woody: Gruesome Gertie.Jim: He had a seat in that chair. And to tell you a little bit about this guy, he was a native of Guyana. He came to Louisiana from Canada in 1981, and he met his primary victim, which was a lady named Sheila Thomas.Woody: I think he's well-traveled. I think Guyana is like in Africa or somewhere.Jim: Yeah, then he goes to Canada.Woody: And then he comes to south, to Louisiana.Jim: He figured it out. He figured out the USA was where he wanted to be, I guess. And we didn't want him here after--Woody: To make [crosstalk] Gruesome Gertie.Jim: Yeah. Sheila Thomas was his primary victim. She was a deputy sheriff in JeffersonParish, Louisiana,-Woody: JP. Yeah.Jim: -which is around the New Orleans area.Woody: Actually, it's one of the largest parishes geographically, because it expands all the way around Orleans, all the way down to Grand Isle. Did you know Grand Isle is in Jefferson Parish?Jim: I did not.Woody: Absolutely. There it cut across all that marsh and everything else, land wise,Tangipahoa is the longest parish in the state. North and south, I think JP is the biggest. Jim: Interesting. I didn't know Tangi was the longest.Woody: Yeah, Tangi is longest state north and south. Very longest parish--[crosstalk]Jim: Very interesting. So, Sheila Thomas was a deputy sheriff. And Ms. Thomas, along with her daughter, young daughter, who was Shantel Osborne moved in with Lowenfield in the summer of 1981. So, you can already see. Uh-oh.Woody: Right.Jim: Lowenfield and Ms. Thomas, they lived together off and on for about a year. During that year, Ms. Thomas left Lowenfield on three separate occasions and returned to live with her mother. So, they're probably fighting, having arguments.Woody: Off and on. Went off and on.Jim: Yeah. Lowenfield became increasingly bitter following each separation. So, every timeshe would leave, he would get more and more pissed.Woody: Right.Jim: When Ms. Thomas returned to her mother's home for the last time, he repeatedly threatened and harassed Ms. Thomas and her mother, victim, Myrtle Griffin. In the late afternoon of August 30th, 1982, Owen Griffin, Sheila Thomas' stepfather, was in a vacant lot near his home in Marrero, which is like an outskirts of New Orleans. He was playing cards with friends. Owen Griffin, all of a sudden, hears shots ring out from their home. He runs to the house, rushed inside, where more shots were fired. When police arrived, they found five bodies sprawled about the living area of the house, they found the bodies of Sheila Thomas, her four-year old daughter Shantel, Owen Griffin, his wife Myrtle Griffin,Woody: Wow.Jim: -and Carl Osborne, the father of Shantel. All of the victims had sustained multiple gunshot wounds, each had been shot in the head at close range.Woody: That's crazy. Well, think about that last seconds when you're sitting there and whatever pops off and he shoots the first one. You're like, "What the f--?" And then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.Jim: Just blasting--[crosstalk]Woody: You're just sitting there. You know, I'm sure someone trying to scramble and getaway, but he's close enough to shoot them in the head. Jim: No doubt about it.Woody: No mercy. Animal.Jim: No mercy, and total animal. And he goes to court, gets convicted, gets sentenced to death. And eventually, as a matter of fact, in 1988, he does get executed. His final statement included remarks directed at his two attorneys, Wayne Walker and John Craft, who had worked on his trial and appeal. His last words were, "I hope you feel satisfied. Don't give up on me. Although my life will be over tonight, because the one responsible is out there."Woody: Wow.Jim: Yeah. Deny it to the end. "There is no reason to hold anything against me. And the rest who would lie when I'm gone, the body will be gone, but the spirit will live on. Mr. Walker and John Craft, your job was more important than my life. I hope you feel satisfied. Thank you to all of you, and peace."Woody: Did he say peace?Jim: He said peace. That was his final words.Woody: Peace-- [crosstalk]Jim: How dare he use the word.Woody: Right. Road to hell. Yeah.Jim: [chuckles] Yeah.Woody: [crosstalk] -use a moniker.Jim: But here's an interesting thing about this entire case. Dale Brown, the head basketball coach at that time, actually attended his execution.Woody: Oh, I didn't know that.Jim: They had been corresponding since Dale Brown toured Angola years earlier with the LSU basketball team actually became friends, and he attended that execution. I found that very interesting.Woody: Wow. That's crazy. So, that was the real deal execution. Gruesome Gertie. I got to sit in probably around that same time, and the chair would not, obviously, get executed, but think about the difference between what they do now. They just put him asleep, in a Gruesome Gertie,-Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: -they strap you in and you about to ride, "rahhh." Jim: Yeah, lights.Woody: Yeah, lights in. And off-on. rahhh. They don't just hit him once. They did it like, three or four to five times. So, fuck him, and he got what he deserved.Jim: Yeah. And don't use our peace anymore. [laughs]Woody: Yeah. Never use the peace. Tell the devil peace, son of a bitch. Jim: That's right.Woody: All right. I'm going to take you to a guy named Timothy Baldwin. And the date of the murder was April the 4th, 1978. He killed a lady named Mary James Peters. Now, what's unusual about this killing one person and getting a death penalty? Well, Mary James Peters was 85 years old. That's bad, right?Jim: Yeah. Elderly.Woody: But she was blind.Jim: Oh, my God. That's horrible.Woody: He beat her to death with a skillet, a stool, a small television, and a telephone. You would think, me being retired from, say police, I would have all these pronunciations correctly, but I'm going to say this one wrong, because every time I say it, somebody corrects me. But I say Ouachita Parish, Louisiana, which is, y'all, is all the way up northeast in Louisiana. Great fishing and hunting. He was electrocuted in Louisiana on September 10th, 1984. Let me tell you about the case.Timothy Baldwin, and his wife Rita, and their seven children were neighbors of Mary James Peters in West Monroe, Louisiana. Again, y'all, that's way northeast Louisiana. He was roommates with them from 1971 until 1977. Mrs. Peters was godmother to their youngest, Russell. During the latter part of their stay in West Monroe, William Odell Jones also resided with the Baldwins. Okay.The group went to Bossier City for six months, and now, y'all, Bossier City is on the other end of the north part of state by Shreveport. All right, so probably about a three-hour drive. The group went to Bossier City for six months and then moved to Ohio. The oldest daughter, Michelle, remained in West Monroe with one brother. A second son entered the service. Marilyn Hampton and her three daughters stayed with the Baldwins in Ohio. Marilyn, Timothy Baldwin, and her children then left, accompanied by Jones. Baldwin and Jones worked together in the business of installing aluminum siding. After the departure of her husband, Rita Baldwin got into financial difficulties and was picked up on bad check charges. Her four younger children went to live with Michelle in West Monroe. Meanwhile, Timothy Baldwin, our bad guy, Jones, Marilyn Hampton and her three children led an itinerant existence. Their last means of transportation was a 1978 black Ford van which had been rented in Tampa, Florida.On April 4th, 1978, Marilyn Hampton and Timothy Baldwin drove the van to West Monroe. Jones and the children stayed at a cabin in Holmes State Park, near Jackson, Mississippi. Jackson, Mississippi is not that far. Ouachita, however you want to say it in the Monroe is pretty much on the Mississippi, Louisiana. And just north of that is the Arkansas line. So, about an hour from there to Jackson. So, Baldwin and Marilyn Hampton visited Michelle's apartment in West Monroe but left there around 8:00 PM. Shortly thereafter, a van was seen parked in front of Mrs. Peters' house. A man and woman were observed leaving the residence between 10:00 PM and 11:00 PM. Shortly before their departure, passersby saw and heard indications that someone in the Peters' home was being beaten.Baldwin testified in his own behalf and admitted that he and Marilyn visited Mrs. Peters that evening but denied the murder. Mrs. Peters, who was 85 years old, was beaten with various things, among them a skillet, a stool, and a telephone.Jim: Oh, my God, and this is a blind woman. Woody: Right.Jim: She doesn't even know it's coming at. Woody: Right. Yeah.Jim: Poor. Damn.Woody: That's unimaginable, right? Jim: Poor lady. Argh.Woody: Think about the one I had Ms. [unintelligible [00:12:39] had the 57 blows. It was from a base and a Coke bottle, but she was on a walker and stuff. But at least she could see it coming, yeah?Jim: Yeah, that's awful.Woody: Anyway, she remained on the kitchen floor overnight and was discovered the next morning shortly before noon by an employee of the Ouachita Council Meals on Wheels, who was bringing her noon meal. Although helpless and incoherent, Mrs. Peters tried to defend herself against the police officers and the ambulance attendant who took her to the hospital.Jim: Poor woman, man.Woody: She doesn't know who they are. Jim: Yeah.Woody: Dr. A. B. Gregory saw her in the emergency room around 12:30 PM on April 5th, 1978, and found her in a semi-comatose. Her left cheekbone and jawbone were shattered. She had brain damage from multiple contusions and lacerations. According to Dr. Gregory, Mrs. Peters could not communicate rationally. She died of the injuries the following day. Dr. Frank Chin, who performed the autopsy, attributed her death to massive cerebral hemorrhage and swelling, secondary to external head injuries. So, brain bleeds ultimately killed her and it didn't kill her instantly. Can you imagine that, living there, laying there on the floor all night?Timothy Baldwin and Marilyn Hampton were subsequently located in El Dorado, Arkansas. Remember, y'all told you, Arkansas is just north. Timothy Baldwin signed consents for the search of their motel room and the van. Two blue bank bags, one empty and one containing savings bonds and certificates of deposit payable to Mary James, were found in the van. Jones, to whom Marilyn Hampton and Timothy Baldwin had made statements both before and after the crime, helped police officers locate a safe that had belonged to the victim in the LaFourche Canal in West Monroe. Baldwin's finger and palm prints were found on various items in the Peters' home, a cigarette lighter, a television set, and a coffee cup.Baldwin was found guilty, and the jury did what they should have. They recommend the death sentence. So, Timothy George Baldwin was executed on September 10th, 1984. Baldwin was convicted of beaten to death the 85-year-old blind woman, Mary James Peters. And Peters, who was a former neighbor of Baldwin's and the godmother's of his youngestchild, was beaten with everything I told y'all about. Baldwin maintained his innocence and gave this final statement. He said, "I've always tried to be a good sport when I've lost something, and I see no reason not to leave this world with the same policy. After all, it was a hell of a battle. I therefore congratulate all those who have tried so hard to murder me. I definitely have to give them credit as it takes a very special kind of person to murder an innocent man and still be able to live with themselves."Jim: Victim [unintelligible [00:15:37], huh? Woody: Burning in hell.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I'm going to tell you something. Jim: Hella jail as usual.Woody: Hella jail. But you go through all these years, he sat on death row for shorter time than they do now. You know, you're strapped down and that's going to be your last words. I'm thinking about trying to find me some Jesus.Jim: Amen.Woody: Even if I don't believe them and be like, "Oh, Lord, if you could please forgive me ifyou're really there and bring me home." But he's saying, "Mm, I didn't do it."Jim: What a horrible human. Wow. Yeah, we're getting real on this one. Look, these guys, they were executed. So, you're going to hear some disturbing stuff, but we're real with this stuff.Woody: Executed for a reason.Jim: That's right. I'm going to tell you about Sterling Rault. And Sterling Rault was executed, y'all, by electrocution, Gruesome Gertie in 1987, August 24th to be exact. And this is an interesting case, because a lot of these guys that end up on death row and executed, they come from really hard upbringings, and a lot of them didn't have money their whole lives. Sterling Rault was a little bit different. He had a good job, he was a Comptroller at a company called LUTEX. And there was a lady there named Janie Francioni. And Mike, if he were here, could help me pronounce that Italian last name.Woody: Right. [crosstalk] -for sure.Jim: But we're going to go with Francioni. She worked as a secretary. On the evening of March 1st, 1982, which was a Monday, fellow employees observed Rault and Francioni leaving work together in her car. Less than an hour later, three U.N.O. students, which is University of New Orleans inside of New Orleans, they saw the two struggling in the campus parking lot. Francioni screamed at the students, asked them to call the police and make him leave her alone, because he was attempting rape. The students closest to the car observed what appeared to be splashes of blood on her clothing. Rault repeatedly said he had to get her to the hospital, before throwing her into the car from the driver's side all the way to the passenger's side and driving away.Woody: He was saying [crosstalk] the witnesses.Jim: Yeah.Woody: "Oh, I got to get her to the hospital." [crosstalk]Jim: Basically, grabbed her and threw her so hard into the car, she went straight into the passenger seat. So, he was probably a strong guy.Woody: Right.Jim: Approximately 9:20 that evening, a state trooper driving north on Paris Road in an isolated area of New Orleans East stopped to investigate what appeared to be a brush fire and discovered a burning female body.Woody: Ah, worse way.Jim: Close by were partially used five-gallon cans of gasoline and Francioni's blood stained car, which smelled strongly of gasoline. So, he's trying to burn the car in her. A spent bullet was even found on the floor of the car. The victim had a man's belt wrapped around her neck and a jagged wound on the right side of her neck. She had been shot twice. One bullet had struck her in the thigh, traveling into the abdomen, through the small intestines, stomach and liver before exiting the left side of her chest. The pathologist actually testified that this that this would have caused extensive slow bleeding. The wound would have been very painful and would have resulted in death in less than a matter of hours.The second bullet entered directly into the abdomen, and damaged blood vessels in the right kidney and the large blood vessel known as the interior vena cava, before lodging in the spine and would have also caused really rapid bleeding. That wound would have been fatal in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. So, we're painting a picture of here is how she suffered. It was just horrible. The victim was dead-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] twice. Yeah.Jim: Yeah. The victim was dead when the neck wound was inflicted and she was set on fire. Thank, God. Her fingernail scrapings have human blood on them. So, she fought. She's a fighter. Janie Francioni had been with her mother and a friend during the preceding weekend and had had no sexual encounters. I'm sure they tested for that. Her mother took her to work on Monday morning. However, she had engaged in sexual activity 12 to 24 hours prior to her death. Vaginal swabs showed semen fluid but no sperm. Sterling Rault had a vasectomy in 1979.When police searched the area, they detected movement under a nearby bridge. As they approached, a man broke out and ran. After a brief chase, he turned around, threw up his hands, and hollered, "I'm Sterling Rault".Woody: Ran like a bitch.Jim: Yeah. He appeared quiet, calm and relaxed. He was dressed in casual clothing. He was lacking a belt. What his detective brain can put two and two together on that one. And he had a strong aroma of gasoline. So, there were several fresh red scratch marks across his chest. His right hand was swollen. After being advised of his rights, he claimed two men in ski masks kidnapped him and Francioni and raped her. Of course.Testimony at the trial revealed that Rault had been embezzling funds from LUTEX, and his secretary was about to basically ride him out. So, in December, 1981, .25 caliber semi-automatic weapon had been sold to a buyer with a driver's license in the name of Jerry Jones. In executing a search of Rault's residence, they recovered a gun box or the pistol, a box of .25 caliber cartridges and a Mississippi driver's license in the name of Jerry Jones.Woody: Jerry Jones.Jim: So, there it is. They end up taking him to court, obviously, and he gets the death penalty. So, he got executed on August 24th, 1987. He was convicted of raping, stabbing, shooting, and burning the body of Jane Ellen Francioni, a 21-year-old secretary, as we told you. And his final statement was, "I would like the public to know that they are killing an innocent man at this time."Woody: Yeah, three for three. All innocent, huh?Jim: Crazy. "I pray that God will forgive all those involved." How nice of you. "I, personally, do not hold any animosity towards anyone. The country professes to be 'One nation under God,' but the death penalty goes against the word of God. Into the arms of--" [crosstalk]Woody: So does murdering, shooting, laid twice, and choking her with a belt and everything else.Jim: Yeah. "Into the arms of love of God I now go. I love y'all. May God bless y'all." There was a little write up in the paper shortly after these. It was interesting, because he was fighting to try to get these stays of execution, as are typical, but unsuccessful. He rode the lighting as he deserves.Woody: I'm so glad Gruesome Gertie was still involved in all these stories. Jim: Yeah.Woody: I just think that's such a good way for them to go. I know so many people hate the death penalty, and I don't want anybody that's innocent, but these people-- [crosstalk]Jim: Hear some of these stories. You know what?Woody: It's like having a migraine. Everybody knows about someone, not someone about murder, but unless you're going through it, unless it's your loved one. I've seen people who said before their family members got murdered, they were against the death penalty. And after their family members got murdered, they wanted the death penalty.Jim: Yeah.Woody: You understand it, but you don't get it. Jim: That's right.Woody: Well, let's take to our next winner, Antonio James. And, y'all, he's a murderer during some robberies, and he killed two people in January of 23rd, 1979, and was arrested on the 26th of 1979. He was born in 1954, so he was at 1964, 1974, so he was like 24, 25. This happened in Orleans Parish. He actually, this winter, got lethal injection instead of Gruesome Gertie.Jim: Got the needle.Woody: Right, got the needle. Let me tell you about it. So, James had amassed a very extensive juvenile and criminal record by the time he was tried for the murder of-- He murdered two people, y'all, Henry Silver, age 70, and Alvin Adams. I don't know what Adams age was. But James had amassed a very extensive juvenile and criminal record by the time he was tried for the murder of Silver. The post-sentence investigation report-- Let me tell you about that. Anytime you get convicted of any crime, especially you're going to do a lot of time, there's actually a division of the parole officers and probation officers who do, what they call a PSI, presentence investigation report on you, and they tell your whole priorcriminal history, work history and everything else, drug use, whatever, and then they write a synopsis on whether to tell the judge whether or not they're likely to offend again.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, that helps the judge determine how many years or whatever they're going toget.Jim: I didn't know that.Woody: Unless it's automatic life in prison. The post-sentence investigation report prepared for the sentencing court listed 37 juvenile incidents. 37. That's the ones that they called [crosstalk]. That's the ones that they called him for. Think about all the ones he got away with.Jim: Probably double it.Woody: Right. James was ordered confined to the Louisiana Training Institute at age 14.And, y'all, that is basically the Angola, we need--[crosstalk] Jim: LTI.Woody: LTI.Jim: [laughs] That's what you used to call it.Woody: That was right down the road from me. We're going to actually cover that one day, because that's real shit there too. But most of these guys, a lot of them go to death row. But anyway, he was locked up in basically juvenile prison which was a very bad place at age 14.In 1973, he was convicted of attempted armed robbery and sentenced to serve three years at the state penitentiary. During this period of confinement, he was convicted of attempted simple escape. He was released in 1975. I don't understand all these years, because armed robbery carries 99 attempted, I think is 40 up to, and then the simple escape alone is 10 years. Anyway, he was released in 1975. In 1978, he was charged with aggravated rape. That's a mandatory life, if not death penalty. But the charge was later refused by the prosecution.James was convicted of the first-degree murder of Alvin Adams on January 23rd, 1979 and was sentenced to life imprisonment. Okay. The first-degree murder, he could have got the death penalty. He was convicted on January 26th of 1979. So, just shit, three days later, armed robbery of Robert Hooten and was sentenced to 99 years for this offense, the maximum under Louisiana law. Now, we go to Henry Silver.On January 1, 1979, James approached 70-year-old Henry Silver as the latter was getting out of his car in his neighborhood in New Orleans. James placed a gun to Silver's head and demanded his money. When Silver shouted for help, James placed the gun under Silver's right ear, cocked the hammer, and fired a shot into Silver's head. James then rifled through Silver's pockets and removed his wallet containing $35. He drove away in a nearby waiting car. Silver died a few hours later at Charity Hospital.Now, let me tell y'all this, I used to go there all the time back in the day. It's closed now after Katrina, but Charity Hospital was rated as the number one trauma center in the world for gunshots [crosstalk] you know why? Because it handled all New Orleans shit. In the 1990s, the Orleans was the murder capital of the world. So, I've seen some crazy shit in there. But anyway, he obviously lived on the machine for overnight. James was arrested on January26th, 1979 when he bungled another armed robbery attempt and was shot with his own gun. He was indicted for first degree murder.At trial by Orleans Parish grand jury indicted in first degree murder. In December 1981, jury found him guilty as charged at a trial where the principal witness against James was his accomplice, Levon Price. After deliberation, the same jury unanimously recommended that the defendant be sentenced to death. Rightfully so.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, let's go to March 1st, 1996. All these years later, that's 15 years later, Jameswas executed by lethal injection at the Louisiana State Penitentiary, listeners know it as- Jim and Woody: Bloody Angola.Woody: -at the age of 42. The execution team had difficulty locating a vein to insert the catheter into his arm in order to commence the execution. Our hero, Warden Burl Cain requested that James make a fist in order to assist the process. James complied to this request. James declined to give a final statement. However, when Warden Cain later said that James stated, "Bless you," as he was strapped to the execution gurney. His last meal was fried oysters and crab gumbo.Jim: Wow. Good choice. I'd say that. Woody: It made me hunger.Jim: Yeah, dang.Woody: James' execution was the subject of an ABC News documentary on Prime Time Live. In the UK the BBC broadcast a 40-minute piece on April 18th, 1996 on Radio 4 about this case, with particular reference to the role of the British lawyer Clive Stafford Smith in providing adequate defense. So, there you go.Jim: Yeah. Antonio James, we talked about him a little bit on our-- [crosstalk] look, go back and listen to that series, the Burl Cain series, we just wrapped up.Woody: Three or four parts.Jim: Well, it was three parts.Woody: Three parts and then me and Kelly. So, it's four parts. Jim: Yeah. So, the patron, we did an episode with Kelly Jennings. Woody: That's right.Jim: Only available to patron. So go join that patron. Listen to that one. But we discussed Antonio James, and it was interesting. That was the second execution for Burl Cain and the one that he said, "I'm going to do this one right:"Woody: Because the first one-- y'all, go listen to series.Jim: It's really good.Woody: Super powerful. Burl, we're still waiting on you to come on the show, buddy.Jim: You know what I notice about that whole thing? Yes, we are. What I notice about that whole thing is, he's the first one we've come across today that didn't blame it other people.Woody: Yeah, that's right. The first one that didn't-- [crosstalk] Jim: He just said, "God bless, and I'm out."Woody: Yeah, God bless and riding out.Jim: Yeah. At least took it like a man. That's right. So, John Ashley Brown. Let's get to him. John Ashley Brown was executed by lethal injection in April of 1997. I'm going to tell you a little bit about this crime. On the night of the murder, Mr. Laughlin and his wife had eaten dinner at a restaurant near the corner of Dauphine and Touro Streets in New Orleans. Very famous.Woody: Yeah.Jim: Yeah, area of New Orleans. At approximately 11:45 PM, they left the restaurant and began walking to their car, which was located about a block away. Brown exited a nearby vehicle and he confronted the Laughlins. He pinned them against their car, and demanded money from Mr. Laughlin. Mrs. Laughlin screamed and ran back towards the restaurant. When she returned to the scene, her husband was dead.According to NOPD, who had arrived at the location, the victim who had arrived at the location, the victim was found lying face down in the street and bleeding profusely. An autopsy later revealed that Mr. Laughlin had been stabbed 13 times.Woody: It's a lot.Jim: Mrs. Laughlin provided the police with a description of the perpetrator and the vehicle which she had seen him get out of prior to the attack. She also told police that a woman with dark hair had been driving. So, Sergeant James Scott of the NOPD was stopped at a traffic light when heard the description of the crime and saw the suspect being broadcast over the radio. He looked to his left, and there's Brown sitting in a vehicle that matched the description given by the victim's wife. And there was a female at the wheel of the car.Brown's vehicle was pulled into a nearby service station, and Sergeant Scott followed, believing that the occupants of the car might be the suspects. The officer watched as the woman put gasoline in the car while Brown walked over to a water hose and he began washing his hands. He then-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] -blood all over him.Jim: He then re-entered the car. Good point. Sergeant Scott approached the vehicle and ordered Brown to step out and place his hands on the hood, when Brown did so, the police officer observed scratches, marks and droplets of blood on his forearms. He also observed blood between Brown's toes, which were visible through the sandals that he was wearing. In plain view on the floor of the car was a New Orleans shopper's card which belonged to the victim. Wow, the evidence is mounting up, right?Woody: Right.Jimmy: He was arrested, taken into custody, and a search yielded Mr. Laughlin's wallet. A second search pursuant to a properly secured warrant led to the discovery of a Bowie knife which had been concealed underneath the front seat of the car on the passenger side. Mrs. Laughlin positively identified Brown from lineup and basically nailed that, "This is the guy that attacked my husband and killed--"Woody: For those of you who don't know, Bowie knife is a big ass knife.Jim: Yeah. So, obviously, he goes to court, he gets convicted, he gets sentenced to death. And on April 24th, 1997, he was put to death by lethal injection at Bloody Angola. His final words were, "Let my baby sister know I love her and the rest of my family, for supporting me. I love you very much. I'm ready to go now." As he felt the lethal drugs enter his system, Brown stated, “Wow.”Woody: Really?Jim: That's it.Woody: Wow. That's crazy.Jim: Pretty crazy stuff. And those final words, man. But I guess, credit to the guy for not denying it.Woody: Yeah, saying, "You got me bad. Go find the real murderer," and all that shit, right? Jim: Yeah.Woody: And he said, "Wow."Jim: "Wow," when he felt that stuff-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] -saw face of Jesus. Jim: Yeah, it could be.Woody: All right. So, now, y'all, we're going to take you to our next, whatever you want to call him. His name is Willie Watson, and he's a murderer. And not only he is a murderer, he's a rapist and a kidnapper and a robber. This offense took place on April 5th, 1981. And Willie Watson was born in 1951. And he killed a lady, Kathy Newman, who was 25 years old, who was a Tulane University medical student. If you don't know that, if you're not from Louisiana, Tulane is basically the Harvard of the south. He did so by shooting her in St. Charles Parish.On the evening of April 5th, 1981, Willie Watson abducted Kathy Newman, a third-year Tulane University medical student, at gunpoint as she arrived at her apartment building in the Carrollton section of New Orleans. Very familiar with that. Watson forced Newman to drive to an isolated area in St. Charles Parish, which would be towards El Paso, he drove her across the bridge, anyway, where he robbed her of her jewelry and raped and sodomized her. [unintelligible [00:37:42]Watson then instructed Newman to dress herself, and as she did so, he shot her in the back of the head, killing her. Watson later confessed to the murder, stating that he shot Newman because he feared that she could identify him. On June 5th, 1981, Watson was found guilty of first-degree murder. And Willie Watson was executed on July 24th of 1987. Watson was convicted of the kidnapping, rape and murder, like we told you, of Kathy Newman. When they asked if he had any last words, Watson calmly shook his head, "No." Let me read you the article.Jim: Mm, no last words.Woody: This article is from The New York Times. It's right up after execution, dates July 25th, 1987, New York Times. "Willie Watson went calmly and silently to his death in an electric chair of Gruesome Gertie." They didn't say that, y'all, it's me.Jim: [laughs]Woody: "Early today, for the rape, robbery and murder of the Tulane University medical student. He was the sixth murderer executed in Louisiana since early June and the second this week--" [crosstalk]Jim: Wow. They making it happen back in those days.Woody: The student, Kathy Newman, 25 years old was abducted, raped, and shot. Now, not just raped, y'all, sodomize I'll say, also and shot to death in 1981. Mr. Watson, 30, confessed that he killed her, attributing the crime to his drug addiction while an adolescent growing up in New Orleans housing projects. Look, back then they were real and legit projects. Did I ever tell you about that? You could be on where Mike's house is on St. Charles and go two blocks in any direction, they had the project-projects. The big high rises and shit. They had their own New Orleans police authorities for it. It was so bad. They wouldn't go in there in the daytime unless they had three units at a time.Jim: Wow.Woody: But anyway, this is a-- [crosstalk] Jim: So, he grew up rough.Woody: That was rough shit, the concrete jungle. So, the execution, which had been scheduled for midnight, was delayed two hours after the US Supreme Court rejected Mr. Watson's appeal on a 4-to-4 tie vote. And Mr. Watson's lawyers made a last-minute plea to Governor Edwin W. Edwards, my boy, in Baton Rouge, and he refused the final statement. At 1:58 AM, Mr. Watson walked into the death chamber. His head had been shaved of the shoulder-wide afro, because he had a big fur, y'all, hairstyle he had the day before when he appeared at the state Pardon Board in a futile appeal.Asked if he wanted to make a final statement, Mr. Watson shook his head, "No." He was then strapped into the wooden electric chair before his face was masked. Y'all, they do that because the eyes fry out of the head and the scalp will catch on fire. Before his face was masked, he looked at his spiritual adviser, Sister Lee Scardina, and mouthed ''I love you, Sister Lee.'' Then he received the first of four jolts. Remember I told you earlier, hit it, they go, "Hit it. [imitating electric sound]." Turn it off. And they did, "Hit it," four times. Anyway. So, then he received the first of four jolts of electricity at 2:02 AM. He was pronounced dead at 2:09 AM. After it was over, the spiritual adviser went to Jed Stone, Mr. Watson's lawyer, who was outside the death chamber, and cried on his shoulder. Outside the prison, six advocates of the death penalty marched in the darkness.Now, I remember back in those days that basically the neighbor in parish where I grew up and-- Shit, I remember, they were rolling [unintelligible [00:41:39] Governor Evers was in office. My mom was on the parole board, parole and pardon board. Anyway, he was good friends with my dad.Jim: Wow. That was like six minutes, they were jumping.Woody: Yeah, they give him for a minute, turn it off, give him another minute, and then--[crosstalk]Jim: Good. Very good.Woody: Nothing more but fuck you. Jim: Yeah. [crosstalk]Woody: Killed 25-year-old, she was going to be a doctor. He raped her and butt raped her.Jim: Awful. All right, we're going to tell you-- Look, and this one's disturbing, so prepare yourself. But we're going to tell you about Andrew Lee Jones. And he was executed by electrocution on July 22nd of 1991. Tell you about the crime. On February 17th, 1984, 11-year-old Tumekica Jackson was living with her mother, grandparents in the Scotlandville section of Baton Rouge. Tell them about Scotlandville, Woody.Woody: Yeah, I'm just going to tell you. I'm about to do a full-blown episode. I have all the research and everything on this case, and it's bad.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Scotlandville, y'all, it's in north Baton Rouge almost to Baker, what they call Baker, Louisiana, which is really Baton Rouge just runs into Baker. It's all still east Baton Rouge Parish.Jim: Bad part of Baton Rouge.Woody: Yeah, it's-- [crosstalk]Jim: A lot of gang activity in that area. It used to be way back in the day, a decent area.Woody: Decent. Back in this time, it wasn't that bad. But this dude is that bad. Again, Real Life Real Crime original episode, you're going to get all the details, we'll get you.Jim: There you go. So, at 04:00 AM on February 17th of 1984, the grandmother discovered that the child, the 11-year-old Tumekica Jackson was missing from her bedroom. The police discovered that someone had broken the screen of the rear den window and had opened the back door. In the muddy ground, near the house, police obtained a cast of an imprint made by the left shoe from a pair of size 8 1/2 tennis shoes. There were no signs of a struggle inside the house. The investigation immediately focused on Jones because his stormy romantic relationship of several years with the victim's mother. It had been broken off the week prior to this incident. The victim knew Jones well, and he had been in the home many times. On the evening of the child's disappearance, Jones had called the mother's home three times and had told the grandmother that he would not be responsible for his actions,-Woody: Not going to be responsible.Jim: -if the mother continued to refuse to see him. About 6:30 AM, the police went to the apartment where Jones lived with his sister, Terry Jones, and his half-brother, Abraham Mingo. Jones told the police he had been home all night, and Mingo and Ms. Jones confirmed his story. A few hours later, Ms. Jones called the police and said she may have been mistaken about that. After questioning her further, the police obtained a written consent to search the apartment. When no one answered the officer's knock, Ms. Jones used her key to open the door and officers found Jones in the bathroom washing a pair of size 8 1/2 tennis shoes. The bath tub was full of dirt and leaves. The officers seized the tennis shoes and a pair of green gloves, and they requested that Jones give them a statement. After signing a waiver, Jones gave the police a tape-recorded statement in which he denied any knowledge of the offense.Woody: "I don't know nothing."Jim: Lack of evidence, so they had to allow him to leave with his sister. But approximately 06:00 PM, the victim's partially nude body was found in a drainage canal.Woody: In a ditch.Jim: An autopsy established a child had been beaten, raped and manually strangled. The police again questioned Mingo. Although he initially told conflicting stories, he eventually gave a detailed account of his activities with the defendant on Friday night and Saturday morning. According to Mingo, he and Jones were out with the defendant on Friday evening, but dropped him off in Scotlandville. About 1:00 AM, Mingo and Jones went to the Snowflake Lounge, but Jones left alone about 30 minutes later, and Mingo returned to the apartment.Now, at some point between 04:30 AM and 05:00 AM, Mingo was awakened by Jones, he knocked on the door, whereupon he let defendant in and went back to bed. When Mingo and Jones were alone in the apartment later that morning, the defendant told him that he should've stayed home, that he did something he didn't want to do, and that he done fucked up. Jones gave Mingo a TG&Y bag and asked him to throw it away, which he did without looking inside. At Mingo's direction, police recovered a TG&Y bag from a dumpster near a grocery store. The bag contained socks, a pair of blue jeans and a pink sweatshirt, which were wet, muddy and stained. Of course, they put some analysis on that and identified the stain is a mixture of blood and semen fluid.Woody: This is before DNA.Jim: Mingo also told the police about a pair of boxer shorts that he had found in the bathroom of the apartment. The shorts belonged to Mingo, but Jones had worn them on Friday night. Pursuant to Mingo's written consent, the police recovered a pair of stained brown and white boxer shorts. Analysis confirmed the presence of blood and semen fluid on the boxer shorts. On the basis of this information, they finally got a warrant. They arrested Jones. Jones gave a videotape statement in which he asserted that he and Rudolph Springer had gone to the victim's house on Saturday morning to commit a burglary. They were scared of being recognized, so Jones remained in the car while Springer entered the house. When Springer returned carrying the victim, Jones got in the backseat and pulled his cap over his face.After a few minutes, Springer drove Jones to his apartment. That was the last time the defendant saw the victim. That was his story, they didn't buy it. And eventually, he gets sentenced to death.So, he was executed on July 22nd, 1991, by electric chair. While he did not make a final statement, at a pardon board hearing three days before he was executed, he said, "There's a possible chance I did it. A possible chance I didn't do it. If I had not been drunk, nothing like that would have happened. I'm like anybody else. I don't want to die or anything like that." So, that was his statement after that. I hate it when it involves children. It's disgusting.Woody: Yeah, I actually have some more in-depth knowledge on that case. I'm going to bring it to you on a original RLRC episode in the future.Jim: Oh, very good.Woody: He is a real piece of shit. I know of Mingo personally, and I'll explain all that. Jim: I look forward to that, fellas.Woody: Right. Let's take to the next one. John Brogdon. I'm going to give you the facts of the case. On the evening of October 7th, 1981, Rubeta Brown and her 11-year-old sister, Barbara Jo, walked to a convenience store near their home in Luling, Louisiana. Y'all that is in St. Charles Parish. Again, down there in the El Paso area and all that kind of outside NewOrleans, but across the swamp. So, they walked to use the telephone. 19-year old Brogdon and his 17-year old friend, Bruce Perritt, arrived at the store while Rubeta was on the phone.Perritt approached Barbara Jo and put his arm around her. Rubeta called her sister away, and the two left. On the way home, Barbara Jo asked her sister if she could visit a neighbor's home for a few minutes. Rubeta allowed her sister to leave her to do so. Rubeta went to the neighbor's house, about 10 minutes later to pick up Barbara Jo. Barbara Jo wasn't there. And after short search in the neighborhood, Rubeta informed her mother that Barbara Jo was missing. And they called the sheriff's office.After that, a friend of Barbara Jo's came forward to say that he had seen Barbara Jo earlier that evening in a car seated between Brogdon and Perritt. Two men discovered Barbara Jo's body later that evening behind a levee. Again, y'all levee are high dirt walls, usually dirt, sometimes cement, hold back the rivers in the water. But anyway, they saw him behind the levee in Luling. And look, you get no fucking business being behind a levee, period.Jim: Yeah, especially in Luling.Woody: Right. Perritt's car was found parked a short distance away. Two other men later informed authorities that they had seen Brogdon and Perritt walking on the road near this levee. Brogdon was without a shirt and appeared disheveled. Brogdon and Perritt were arrested that evening at Brogdon's home on suspicion of Barbara Jo's murder. After being informed of his Miranda rights at the sheriff's office, Brogdon waived his right to counsel and confessed to the murder and aggravated rape of Barbara Jo. In his statement, Brogdon told how he and Perritt tortured and killed her. Instead of visiting the mother's home that night, Barbara Jo had returned to the convenience store and met with Brogdon and Perritt. The confession-- Well, that's their story, y'all. Confession admitted that after they picked her up at the convenience store, Brogdon and Perritt drove her to the levee where her body was later found.They repeatedly raped her and forced her to perform oral sex on them. All during these acts, they beat Barbara Jo with their fists. They also broke bottles on the cement and then stabbed her repeatedly with the edges. Perritt also struck Barbara Jo in the head with a brick that he found lay nearby. Brogdon then beat her with the brick. The two also used pointed sticks to pierce her body. Brogdon and Perritt left the scene of the crime and Perritt's vehicle when they heard another car approached and they hauled ass in Perritt's vehicle.Brogdon was convicted by St. Charles jury of murder and aggravated rape and sentenced to death. So he was executed on July 30, 1987. Brogdon and his co-defendant Bruce Perritt were convicted of raping, beating. We told you about all that. Perritt received a life sentence, y'all, because the jury deadlocked in the penalty phase. I don't know what fucking--Jim: Some juror. Yeah.Woody: -idiots on that jury. Brogdon made no formal final statement. As he turned to seathimself in the electric chair, his last words were, "God bless y'all." It's crazy, right? Jim: Horrible.Woody: We do some really uplifting stories. We've done some great, great shit. But sometimes, you got to let it be known. Wow.Jim: How the cow eats a cabbage.Woody: Right. [crosstalk] -the worst fucking place in the world.Jim: Yeah. These people that are getting executed are not always angels. Woody: They did everything to that girl. Poor-- [crosstalk]Jim: Blind woman. That's just awful. Thank y'all so much for supporting us. We hope y'all enjoyed this episode. We've got a Part 3 that we'll drop at some point that you'll really like as well. But we just thank y'all for all you do for us.Woody: Definitely patron members, hope you're enjoying your commercial free, early releases, and all your bonus episodes, and everything else. And you want to be a patron member, you can go to patreon.com, type in Bloody Angola.Jim: Yes. And it'll pull it right up.Woody: Follow us on Facebook, and look for Bloody Angola announcements and everything Real Life Real Crime, including Real Life Real Crime app, and follow our other show, Real Life Real Crime Daily, [crosstalk] me and Mike Agovino.Jim: Yeah, absolutely.Woody: Original Real Life Real Crimes like the one I'm going to tell you about with Mingoinvolved in it. It drops on Tuesdays as of now, y'all. Jim: Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Everton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: Complete story of America's bloodiest prison.Jim and Woody: Peace.[Bloody Angola theme]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, they wrap up season 4 of the podcast and give you an amazing sneak peek into season 5!#thewrap #truecrime #bloodyangolapodcast #podcastBLOODY ANGOLA PODCAST: THE WRAP FULL TRANSCRIPT Jim: Hey everyone and welcome back to another edition of Bloody- Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And Woody Overton, we've been doing 18 episodes. This is the 19th episode of Season 4.Woody: Wow. Sounds like it's time for a wrap [crosstalk] right? Jim: It must be.Woody: That is a lot.Jim: That is a lot. And, y'all, we have so much fun doing this. We just go and go and go, and before you know it, we've got four seasons and one. But we love it that way. And so, today we thought it was fun to not only kind of wrap up the season and discuss our thoughts on the Episodes that we did drop, but give you a sneak peek into what, Woody Overton, I think is going to be our best season ever.Woody: It's absolutely going to be the best, because we got the best stuff coming up. Jim: Oh, yes.Woody: And you did the best research and we got guests and everything else.Jim: Yeah. We're raising the bar to say the least for Season 5. But let's talk about Season 4, which, y'all, our most successful season to date. We had so many different subjects that we covered and when we envisioned this podcast, that was one of the things that we envisioned was being very broad about how we covered Angola.Woody: Right. We told you every story would be different. We've had some that were uplifting, we had some that were mentally disturbing about crime and we had just everything. We're going to talk about some, but it's all varied and all true.Jim: Oh, yeah. And we started off Season 4 with The Rise & Fall of C-Murder.Woody: That's right. Great one. We got a lot of response from that.Jim: Really kicked off the season.Woody: Really, really excellent. Loved it. I didn't really understand that he was such a legend in Louisiana.Jim: Yeah, he really was. And what a story. A lot of what we covered surrounded the fact that his case, there was never a whole lot of, say, proof. There was a lot of circumstantialstuff. And we covered some of the holes in that case and also covered some of the things that pointed towards C-Murder being involved. But we left it up to the listener to kind of judge for themselves what they thought.Woody: Right. We brought to you a lot of facts on it, researched and watched documentaries and everything else. And then, you got it from our perspective, and you the story and me the detective on it. So very interesting. If y'all hadn't heard it, you need to go listen to it.Jim: That's right. And then went straight from there into When Evil Escapes, which was the story of Casey White and Vicky White.Woody: Yes. That's crazy. And, y'all, it ties back into Bloody Angola because that's unfortunately those relationships develop. That's a very real deal. And here you have this career lady. I mean, her whole life's been about this and then she falls under the spell of this monstrous-Jim: Monster, yeah.Woody: -big dude. And the story that unfolds is just so crazy and how they end up.Jim: The ending on that one was fire. And we want to remind everyone you can go back and listen. If you hear us mention an episode that you haven't listened to yet, you can go back through and you'll find it. Just scroll down through Season 4. In Episode 3, we started our Death Sentence series which covered the death row exonerations with DNA and things like that taking place in Angola specifically.Woody: Yeah. And those cases were phenomenal. And I know a lot of people are against the death penalty and always say, "Well--" You come home and find your kid raped and mutilated, etc. But this shows the other side of it and their valid argument that, "Hey, you know what? Sometimes they get it wrong." So, we gave you the unbiased truth on these people that got out. And what actually ultimately happened to them. Go back and listen to it because you'll find a common thread on every one of them that got released. Didn't do so well.Jim: That's right. And then we felt it only right to cover those that were executed, I guess you could say, for the right reasons. There was preponderance of proof and that was with our Death Chamber Part 1 and just covered those guys that walked down and sat in Gruesome Gertie.Woody: Right. And not we only told about their crimes, we told about some of the [unintelligible 00:06:28] stuff, but then last meals, last words. And again, I think you find in most of those that some of the last words are almost the same and I don't want to ruin it for you, so go listen to it. But I've always been super fascinated by the last meals and last words.Jim: Yeah.Woody: And some great, great two-part series, wasn't it?Jim: Yeah. Well, yeah, two parts.Woody: Because there's that much information and that much fire in it.Jim: After that, we kind of got back to telling you the stories of some people that-- this guy in particular is still sitting in Angola and that is Principal to Murder, Justin Granier who committed some crimes in Gonzales, Louisiana.Woody: That's right, yeah. Very, very interesting to say the least.Jim: I found that as well because Justin is one that gained popularity on TikTok and some other places because he was on a show that featured Louisiana State Penitentiary and his work through several programs that they offer and does appear to be someone that is very resentful of his crime and all those sorts of things. But we're not going to ruin it for you. Go listen to it. Season 4, Episode 6, we covered The Escape From Angola in 1953. That was Ricardo Escobar who's--Woody: That's right.Jim: --a little home invasion.Woody: He did. And my grandfather actually ruled in this case. My namesake, actually, or I guess I'm his namesake and my son has the same name, but it's different time in what happened in this case. I think the first time ever any kind of verdict had come down like that in the state of Louisiana for an escapee.Jim: Yeah, it's a good one. Check it out. Season 4, Episode 7, we finally did it. We brought you becoming the warden. Burl Cain Part 1.Woody: Yes. [crosstalk] -legend- Jim: Wow, that was good.Woody: -and such, an early influence on me in my professional career when I worked for him before he became the Warden of Angola. He was the warden of Dixon Correctional Institute. Y'all, this story is amazing.Jim: It really is. And continues to this day. Woody: And we actually did several episodes.Jim: We sure did. As a matter of fact, Season 4, Episode 8 and 9 are the second and third parts of that series.Woody: Yeah. It covers everything from him coming up as the warden in Angola, to how he turned Angola around. Even to Hurricane Katrina coverage, and the bus station and all. Go listen to it. I get goosebumps. That dude just is amazing.Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: Sorry, Warden Cain, I said dude. Jim: [laughs]Woody: That gentleman is amazing.Jim: He really is. And if somebody's listening that knows him, we'd love to talk to him. We can do whatever, we can go up there, we can record him remotely, whatever, but I do know that he has paid some attention to our page and we'd love to sit down and talk to such alegend. Season 4, Episode 10, we went back to the death chamber. Had a lot of people wanting us to follow up on that with more execution stories. And we brought you Death Chamber Part 2. And then Episode 11, we wrapped that series up with a Part 3. We actually covered all of them from 1980 on.Woody: That's right. And then all the way up to Gerald Bordelon.Jim: Yes.Woody: Which was the last one put to death and he's right here out of the Livingston Parish.Jim: That's right.Woody: Very, very interesting. And you get to see the true nightmare of evil these people are.Jim: Absolutely. And then, Season 4, Episode 12, we went ahead and did a part 2 to death sentence and talked about more exonerations that have happened due to DNA or other technicalities. It doesn't necessarily mean-- when someone's exonerated, it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't do it. It just means there was-- unless it's a DNA situation, it just typically means that there was a technicality that was discovered later on that may have changed that sentence from death to life in prison.Woody: Right. They may have commuted it or what have you, but it's very interesting on each individual case, no two are the same.Jim: Then, we went and brought you to Season 4, Episode 13, and we started The Angolite Files.Woody: Yeah, that was fascinating. Jim: Those are fun, man.Woody: Where we go back, y'all, to the oldest editions that Jim found and the wording they use in. We read the actual articles and most of them are just really, really short, but it's like they didn't have any entertainment. They didn't have TV or radio station back then, the Angola's radio station. But the wordings are just crazy. And the things they talk about-- I know people, that's one of our most popular series, so y'all got to check it out.Jim: A little plug on Real Life Real Crime here, but it's funny that Woody, okay, so he just wrapped a really, really good series that you got to go here when we were, I guess you can say marketing this, one of the things that I put out there was that this was your seat inside a courtroom during an actual death penalty trial. And Woody really brings you inside of that as he goes over these transcripts that were very important and needed to be included. But you do something unique, which is-- and I end up doing the same thing from time to time, which is your voice almost changes and you go into this role and it's great because--Woody: Because you're in a character.Jim: Oh, yeah. He gets into that character and he's like, "Let me ask you something." Love it, man. So, go listen to that on Real Life Real Crime for sure if you have the opportunity. In Season 4, Episode 14, we brought you the Elite Chase Team.Woody: Ooh, what a great story.Jim: Ah, that was a good one.Woody: The best of the best at what they do, and not only for bloody Angola, they're sofamous, they get calls for assistance everywhere.Jim: Absolutely.Woody: If you going to run, that's one group of men that you don't want coming after you.Jim: Yo, you don't.Woody: And they've got it down to the science.Jim: They really do. So, go listen to that. Learn all about this Chase Team that is probably one of the best, if not the best in the nation.Woody: I'd put them up against anybody.Jim: Season 4, Episode 15, we had so much response on Becoming The Warden that we dropped an episode called Catch Your House, and it was Woody and Unspeakable's Kelly Jennings joining him as a guest on that show. And they discussed their relationship with Burl Cain, having both worked for him.Woody: Right. Very, very interesting. You get to hear from an old correctional officer's point of view and then a classification officer's point of view. And, of course, two totally different jobs. And KJ has awesome stories too. It's a great episode.Jim: Yeah. And then, we just continued on, and something happened in Louisiana that was generating a lot of talk in the news. And because we have a lot of ambiguity with this show, we bring you current stuff too, if it's making these kind of headlines. And we felt like this was something important. And the response we got from people that listened after the fact let us know that it was important. And that was The Louisiana Clemency Debacle Part 1.Woody: And that's actually a worldwide watch situation now because it's the first time it's ever been done in the history of certainly the state of Louisiana, but in the history of the United States and probably the history of the world. And then, you have both sides. Certainly, the people that wanted these things to go through and then I just don't understand it still.Jim: You and me and million other listeners, apparently. We actually, y'all, got some very special messages from families of people who are actually facing this, and they wanted to just thank us for shedding light on that. Of course, no thanks needed. That was our honor to do and all those sorts of things. But it really hit home to both of us the importance of what we're doing as it relates to situations like that.Woody: And we ended up telling, y'all, where they were from, what their crimes are, and it's just-- you got to listen to it.Jim: Yeah. And then, we continued on with Season 4, Episode 17. That was part two of the Clemency Debacle. And then after that, we even dropped a bonus episode called-- just for patrons, called The First 20 that covered the first 20 of these clemency hearings, the first 20 inmates that are coming up for these hearings.Woody: What it covered, y'all, everybody got the base list of the crimes and where they're from, etc. For the patrons, and thank you, patrons, the show wouldn't run without you, andApple subscribers now, we really delved into their crimes. We told exactly what happened and who was murdered and why was aggravating circumstances and the whole nine yards.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I mean, you can't get any deeper than what we gave them.Jim: That's right. And so, that episode just was absolute fire. And then, Season 4, Episode 18, we went back to The Angolite, and we did 1954 Through The Inmates Eyes and covered several Angolites in and around the year 1954. And one thing that's really great about those Angolites is it really does give you the view from that convict's standpoint. [crosstalk]Woody: Right. Again, the language they use, of course, most of those terms wouldn't be not only politically correct today, but just flat out strange to hear some of them. And we didn't read the whole magazine, y'all. We just picked out certain little articles throughout. Everything from dude who stole and got busted stealing peanut butter, which they put it in their all own words to such and such. And they worded a different way, but basically-Jim: Fights.Woody: -who got stabbed. And such stories today, spung a leak, or however they say, but you got to go listen to it. If you love Bloody Angola, and you love the history of the show, I mean, these articles and the wording and all the history, just the day-to-day life on the plantation back then is crazy.Jim: It really is. And the great thing was, back in those days, they didn't censor things that got out of Angola like they do now. Those Angolites, I mean, they really talked about some stuff that would make you raise an eyebrow that no way it would get out now.Woody: Right.Jim: But back then--Woody: And back then, really, though, it was really put on for the convicts and then it became nationally known and everything else and people would get subscription. Hell, I had a subscription to it in the early 90s. But back then, it was more like their newspaper.Jim: Yeah, that's right. And so that was the season that our most fire season so far as Woody would say. And so, when we're looking back at this, we're like, "Man, we just set a real high bar for Season 5," but we're up to the challenge.Woody: That's right.Jim: We're up to the challenge. [crosstalk] We're going to tell you more. That's right. Woody: We'll take it to the next level maybe.Jim: The next level. That's what we do. And so, we're going to give y'all a look right now into Season 5 and some things that are definitely going to take place. And look, anytime you start off a season, you look for that one story, that one character that really grabs an audience because you're constantly gaining listeners. So, that's kind of your goal, is I want to put something out there first that people can really get attracted to and we found that.Woody: We definitely did.Jim: Charlie Frazier--Woody: Probably the most infamous convict ever. Well, I can't say that. Jim: I would say in the South for sure.Woody: Certainly, the Brent Miller killings and stuff like that--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah.Woody: But this guy overall, what he did, how he lived his life. And what he did to eventually end up in Angola and all the things that happened, holy smokes. Y'all, we're going way back in history here. It's not a stretch to say that-- our episode in whatever season, the Red Hat Cell Block, it's not a stretch to say they built that cell block for Charlie Frazier. He was a bad ass. He could escape from anywhere. But we're going to tell you everything about him.Jim: And he did.Woody: And Jim Chapman has outpunted his coverage this time. Jim: Oh, my God, ever, ever.Woody: Wait till you see in Patreon, you'll get to see more than anybody else because all the documents and news stories and photographs and it's going to blow your mind. And as any proper great story that I've learned over the years doing on Real Life Real Crime, it's going to have to be a multi-part series. And you're going to want it to be a multi-part series. The only thing you're going to hate is when that episode ends because you're like, "Argh," till the next one.Jim: There's no doubt about it.Woody: And the patrons, of course, will get it commercial free and early releases.Jim: That's right. Look, with this particular guy, ever since we first started this, Season 1, I have been digging, digging, digging. It is very, very hard to get information on this particular guy, Charlie Frazier, for a multitude of reasons. One, back then, they just didn't keep records like they do now.Woody: No social media.Jim: Yeah, there's things that happen every time things get lost. Woody: There's no cable news, no TV channels or whatever.Jim: No doubt. This guy, I'm telling y'all, I'll make a promise to you. In my opinion, this will be the definitive history of Charlie Frazier. No doubt about it. I have over 100 pages' worth of information. Now, we're going to freeball this thing. Freeball, that's kind of weird-- but we're going to freeball it. We might not wear no underwear in the studio today. [chuckles] But we're going definitely talk off the cuff about this guy.But Patreon members, I want to say this just for you people. Look, everybody that gets this show outside of a Patreon or outside of an Apple Podcast and we're going to talk about that in just a minute. Anybody that gets information outside of that is getting it for free. And we love that. Look, everybody cannot be a subscriber. So, what we ask for those people to do is if you want to pay us back for the hours and hours we spend doing this stuff, all you have todo is share the podcast. And that is all we would ever ask for those that just are not in a position where they can support any other way. We appreciate that, we love it, we get it, and so those people, we thank as well.But our Patreon members, they have a financial investment in our success and that's huge. We love, love all of you, whether you do that or not. But for those folks, we give them something extra for that.Woody: We give them a lot extra- Jim: Yes.Woody: -Patreon members for Bloody Angola. Unless we are doing a little TikTok right now because--Jim: We don't do enough of that, right? [crosstalk]Woody: For the BA, y'all, on TikTok, we're discussing the ending of this season and thebeginning of the next and the fire stories. And we love y'all.Jim: Yes. That's right. We actually just dropped it, so check out that TikTok, by the way, Real Life Real Crime on TikTok. And you'll see all kinds of great stuff. But getting back to that, this particular Charlie Frazier episode, y'all, I have newspaper articles, clippings. I have actual records from where Charlie Frazier checked into hotels and signed his name. I have actual pictures of the places where people were killed. All of that, we're going to put just for patron members.Woody: We really think it's going to be such a success-- somebody's going to want to do a documentary on, and you've already done all the work.Jim: Yeah. If you're not a member yet, join in the next couple of weeks. We're also going to talk about a little guy by the name of Huddie Ledbetter who is otherwise known as Lead Belly. Look, for those of y'all that aren't familiar, he is probably the most popular or one of the most popular convicts ever in Bloody Angola. He was a blues musician that actually got released from prison-Woody: Because he was a blues musician.Woody: -because he was-- some people say he's the best blues musician ever. So, we're going to be covering the story. His story is absolutely unbelievable. Phenomenal story. We're going to be doing that this season. How about-- y'all ready for this? Look, we've been working on getting someone on the show that would-- I've never seen an interview that this guy has done.Woody: Me either.Jim: But he has done something that is worldwide famous, and that is he was the detectivethat actually caught Robert Lee Willie and Joe Vaccaro.Woody: Not only caught them, he's the one that actually got confessions out of. FBI and everybody else also was there, and they flew Mr. Sharp in. They flew him in and he got the confessions.Jim: So, this season, Detective Donald Sharp, for those of y'all, Robert Lee Willie and Joe Vaccaro, well, let me tell you this. Sean Penn played the character in Dead Man Walking that these guys were based after.Woody: I think he won an Academy Award for it.Jim: I believe he did as well. This exclusive interview with Detective Donald Sharp coming atyou this season, get ready for it.Woody: And we would want to thank him ahead of time for coming in and doing this. [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah, he don't have to do it. I want to thank his daughter who reached out to me and kind of got me in contact with Detective Sharp.Woody: Thank you.Jim: Yeah, thank you very much. And a fan of the show, and listens to the show, shoutout toher.Woody: Right. That's amazing.Jim: Also, how about there's something in Angola that we've been requested since Season 1 to talk about, and that is the Rodeo.Woody: Rodeo. And by the time we get to this story, the Rodeo happens four weekends, every weekend in October, every year, and then I think one weekend in April. But anyway, it'll be that time by the time this story comes out. It's just a whole different world.Jim: Yeah. We're going to bring it to you.Woody: We're going to bring it to you and it's so much that goes on and all that.Jim: So, we're going to be bringing you the Angola Rodeo. And how about something that I get a lot of requests for and that-- Actually, a lot of people are shocked, they know that at some point through listening to our show that women were imprisoned at Angola.Woody: My grandmother was actually a correctional officer there for the women part of the prison. When my mama was a baby girl, they lived on the B-Line.Jim: There you go, and I haven't even talked to Woody about this yet, but I actually have been doing an enormous amount of research on women in Angola specifically. I have a heck of a show that we're going to be bringing your way specifically about the women.Woody: Yeah.Jim: So, you're going to love that.Woody: If the master historian researcher says he's got it, then-- [crosstalk]Jim: I got it. I got the juice. [laughs]Woody: He loves to give me the juice for the fourth time, and I'm like, "Oh, wow."Jim: Yeah, man. When I found the juice on Charlie Frazier, it was 11 o'clock at night, I'm texting Woody.Jim: I was like, "Yes, yes."Woody: "You're not going to believe what I got my hands on."Jim: When we finally do get to take the tour of Angola, we're going to be able maybe teach them something.Woody: Oh, yeah. In addition to that, we're going to bring you a couple of single cases that have really made a lot of headlines in Angola. One of them is just a horrible individual. We're going to talk about, not only his time before he was incarcerated in Angola and what he did, but we're going to tell you about what he did when he got there, which includes escape attempts. And it's a guy by the name of Brandon Scott Lavergne. We're going to be bringing you that finally after a lot of research. And we're going to bring you another one that I have my eye on, but we'll leave that one a surprise. We'll let you wait. Now, so that's some upcoming stuff that we have.And we also want to tell you about some new features that we have on Bloody Angola that we've been constantly working towards. When you're running these podcasts and you're doing these things, it's a constant work because you have to stay up with technology. And one of the things that I felt like we, and Woody also felt like we had a gap in, was our Apple Podcast listeners that we have a Patreon and let me tell y'all, the Patreon is where it's at, as far as detailed bonus content. There's no limitations to Patreon. You can have several different tiers and all that, but some people just don't do it. They're just not fans of it, maybe of that website or whatever. We want to make sure we didn't leave them out. So, we partnered with Apple Podcast to where you can get bonus episodes and early releases right from Apple Podcast. You don't have to sign up for another source. I think they just bill your Apple account like they do the App Store and stuff.Jim: The other thing about it is, Jim, is they get to try it.Woody: Yes, it's a seven-day free trial.Jim: Free trial, we're offering a free trial for seven days.Woody: So, go in and listen to content. If you don't like it, great. But I can promise you, you're going to love it.Jim: Yeah, you're going to love it.Woody: Like you said, it's different from Patreon and I get that. But some people just want tobe able to go and punch a button and listen.Jim: Absolutely. And hey, look, were honored to have Apple Podcast approve us for that. That's an approval process. It's not automatic like some things are, so it spoke highly of our show that they would approve us for that, wanted us on board and pushing us and all those sorts of things. Also, another reminder on that front, two quick things. Bloody Angola, follow the Facebook page because we post all kinds of fun stuff on there. Sometimes, it's just updates. Sometimes, it's just what we're doing.Woody: Jim always comes up with the coolest artwork for each episode. [chuckles] [crosstalk]Jim: I love it. I'm so proud of my artwork. That is another thing I text Woody at 11 o'clock, "Check this out."Woody: "Woody, look at this," and I am like waiting outside of my box [unintelligible 00:32:21].Jim: [laughs] Yeah, no doubt about it. So, check that out. And we also have a website where you can purchase Bloody Angola swag. Look, we just added a couple of things. Another thing that our highest tier Patreon members get, they get a quarterly gift. We don't want to send the same t-shirt 10 ten times or a different t-shirt every time. So, every time we send that quarterly gift, it's something different. So, those of you out there that I know are listening right now that got one of those, maybe post a picture of you holding it, maybe a selfie, and send it to me and maybe I'll send you something extra and put it on the page.Woody: Not only is it Bloody Angola related, this latest round, we even signed it. Jim: Oh, yeah, that's right.Woody: Jim and I both signed them.Jim: That's right. And we'll be offering those also for purchase, I just got to get those uploaded to the website and you can buy. We have a few of those left and you can be styling in some Blood Angola swag. But don't forget about the website and the fact you can listen to all the episodes directly from it if you chose to. It has a swag store. We also do some blogging on there. So, I'm sure I'm going to be doing a lot of blogging coming up with these crazy episodes. But you can check those blogs out and those are great things to share on Facebook pages and stuff for people that may be interested.Woody, our growth, which is what you look for is nothing too short of staggering.Woody: Y'all validate us. And it's amazing. I want to say this, I think it's September 30th?Jim: Yeah, for the Podcast Awards? Yeah, September 30th.Woody: I want to remind you all, y'all voted and made us a Top 10 finalists for the History category-Jim: Huge honor.Woody: -in all podcasts in the world, in the History category. And it's a huge honor. Hey, just to make the finals is fire, and the Top 10 in the World in History? We're already winners and I think we got a real legit shot because of you fans.Jim: Yeah. I do too. September 30th, another thing with the Facebook, we're going to post the link where you can go watch it live. They have a little award ceremony online. You can click on that and you can actually watch the whole Podcast Awards online. And they'll announce the winners and play little videos, acceptance videos.Woody: I just want to thank y'all again for getting us there, just under a year old.Jim: And we love it because with this award ceremony in particular, the fans vote on it. It'snot a panel of people that don't know us.Woody: It's people's choice. Y'all did it. The top 10 belongs to y'all, not Jim and I. And if we win it, that'd be another blessing. And the award belongs to y'all.Jim: That's right. Just a last little thing today. This will be a shorter episode than normal because it's a wrap-up show. But we want to let you know that next week, we're going to do a little episode swap, and we're going to have everything. We're going to be prepping for Season 5, but we're going to put a fire episode of Real Life Real Crime on the feed here with Bloody Angola.Woody: Absolutely. It's going to be love, and I love it. We hadn't done one of those in a long time. We're also going to put a Bloody Angola episode on Real Life Real Crime Original.Jim: That's right. Because everybody that listens to one, then listen to the other, our numbers will be exactly the same. [laughs] So hopefully, someone will hear that maybe they'll introduce other people to the family.Woody: And y'all, this is a process, and certainly it is a business. So many podcasts come and go, but we have grown and grown and grown, and we've made it. And yes, Patreons, thank you so much, now our Apple subscribers. And thank you to our advertisers.Jim: Oh, yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned that. HelloFresh, which is advertising on this episode.Woody: Look, I'm a foodie, and I'm not just giving a senseless plug. They've been sponsoring me through Real Life Real Crime since like 2019. And the food is phenomenal.Jim: It is.Woody: I guess I get stuck in my old Cajun cooking ways or whatever. They send me this box of stuff and I'm like, "Oh," but all the sauces and the fresh meats and everything are in there, and I've never been disappointed. Sometimes, I tell my wife, like, "I'll reorder that right now." And it's a great deal.Jim: It really is. And in the show notes of this episode, you can get that, and I believe it's 50BLOODYANGOLA.Woody: That's the code.Jim: And you get all kinds of perks. It's like 50% off 15 meals or something like that. Woody: It's way cheaper than going out to eat or having something delivered.Jim: Especially with that code but make sure you use that code, y'all, and we'll link it. We're going to talk about it in the description of this podcast. Just scroll down and you'll get all the information you need on that deal. And it helps support the show. It helps keep your grocery bill down.Woody: And it helps filling your stomach with some great food.Jim: That's right.Woody: You'll be looking like a crackhead like me for that box to be delivered. Jim: [laughs] That's it. And it makes you look like a heck of a cook.Woody: Oh, yeah. If you want to impress somebody, oh, yeah, it's--Jim: Yeah. So, check them out, HelloFresh. We're very thankful for them. And look, on another note on that, and the last thing we'll bring up on sponsors, I've had a few local folks to Louisiana ask about sponsoring Bloody Angola. If you want information on that, just shoot me an email, jim@localleadersthepodcast.com or bloodyangola@gmail.com. I check the first one quicker than the second one. So, that one I check every five minutes, so the Local Leaders is the best one to use. But I can give you some information on how you can be a local sponsor for the show.Woody: Yeah. And a lot of different options on that. And we have a huge listener base, especially here in Louisiana.Jim: Absolutely. And we give you guys a special deal because you're local folks and we want to help you out. So, until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. I'm blessed and love all y'all. Jim: Yes, your hosts of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.[Bloody Angola theme][Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Woody Overton and Jim Chapman of Bloody Angola Podcast tell the story of Clifford Etienne and the Louisiana Prison Boxing Program at Louisiana State Penitentiary and other prisons.#cliffordetienne #theblackrhino #bloodyangolapodcast #podcastFull TranscriptBloody Angola Podcast ( THE BLACK RHINO)Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Welcome, y'all, back to another episode of Bloody Angola. And we appreciate you listening and liking, subscribing, and all that good stuff.Jim: Yeah.Woody: We want to thank our Patreon members who are very instrumental in the show. Y'all stay tuned at the end of the show and we're going to talk about that some more. But, Jim, today we've got something-- We always said it'd be different. Today, this is a very, very interesting story, which I do have a lot of personal connection with.Jim: I think we can title this one The Black Rhino.Woody: The Black Rhino. Absolutely. I knew the Black Rhino when he was becoming the Black Rhino. This guy's name was Clifford Etienne. And that's, y'all, not from South Louisiana. It's E-T-I-E-N-N-E. Clifford Etienne grew up in New Iberia, Louisiana, home of tabasco. We call it affectionately the Berry. If you're from South Louisiana, they just call it the Berry. I got paternal brothers from down there and Bobby [unintelligible 00:03:03], if you're listening, shoutout, Probation And Parole, State of Louisiana.Jim: But there's not much out there either. It's the tabasco plain if you're going to New Iberia pretty much.Woody: It's growing up a lot over the years, but back then, and specifically in this time frame that I'm going to be talking about, Clifford Etienne was coming up and he was truly, basically a stud.Jim: Yeah. He dominated in wrestling. He played baseball. Woody: Linebacker in football.Jim: Track and field. He threw the disc and the shot. Woody: 6'2", 290 pounds.Jim: Big boy. And was recruited by LSU, Nebraska, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, which these days are dominant, but back in those days were extremely dominant.Woody: And recruited as a linebacker. And he just was a stud-stud. But sometimes, life happens and people try cocaine or different things or they hang with the wrong crowd. And that's what Clifford started to do. He could have had the world as his oyster, and he would it in later years and seems like history repeats itself, unfortunately. Back then, on a certain day in Lafayette, Louisiana, when Clifford was a young man--Jim: Yeah, he was 18. As most 18-year-olds do, he was getting away with what he could, and him and four friends decided it would be a good idea to rob some customers at a shopping mall in Lafayette.Woody: It was the only shopping mall in Lafayette at the time. And that was in 1988. I was there in 1989. And when USL was USL, now it's ULL. Go, Cajuns.Jim: Yes.Woody: But they robbed some people. And ultimately, he got busted.Jim: Yeah, he got sentenced to 40 years. The first stint was Bloody Angola. That was where he first went.Woody: And 40 years, y'all, would have been the minimum on armed robbery. It carries up to 99 years in the state of Louisiana. I think he was like 18 years old, he gets sentenced and they ship him to Bloody Angola.Jim: That's right. Eventually, after a few transfers, he ends up at DCI.Woody: That's Dixon Correctional Institute, y'all. That's where I would come to know him. What happened was I was working the working cell block, which y'all heard me talk about before. It's different than admin seg, because there's two men to a cell. But working cell block is where you only get sent for major rule violations. Basically, for street charges, whether you're smuggling, dope, you attack an officer, you rape somebody, or you fight with weapons. Now, I had two tiers of the working cell block that I ran and I can remember distinctly, Clifford Etienne was in the cell with a guy from Livingston Parish, a white guy from Livingston Parish. Now, Clifford Etienne is a black man, and they were in the next to the last cell at the end of the tier. The tier only had cells on one side, y'all, face the screen windows. They had a couple of black and white TVs down the tier.But I would stop and talk to them all the time because the guy from the LP, I knew him from the street, and I knew him back from the club days. We knew some of the same people. You're not supposed to become friends and stuff with the convicts, which I submit to you that when you are working 12-hour shifts in two on, two off, three on, two off, two on, three off, but even on my days off, the Department of Corrections was always short and they had an on call list. Basically, I could work 30 days a month.But I'm doing time just like they're doing time. I was doing time just like they were doing time. They locked those doors behind you on that 12-hour shift, you can only shower them and feed them and have nurse calls so much and shit gets a little boring. So, I would stop, and I did a couple of years back there-- and I say it, I'm like a convict, but it [Jim chuckles] really was like doing time. Did a couple of years back there. When you get locked up on the working cell block, once you get locked up, you have to do 90 days without a low court or a high court write-up. You go back before the board and they basically hear your case as to whether or not you can be released in general population. Well, the problem with that is, y'all, in the working cell blocks, basically, they're worst of the worst because these are people that can't even follow the basic rules in prison, even the small rules, and the ones that, like I said, were back there for serious charges. Now, the white guy in the cell was back there for having or suspicion of having sex with a female guard. That's a no-no, but it is what it is, right?[laughter]Woody: If you can get over and do what you do, that's what they're going to do. Now, his cellie was Clifford Etienne. So, I began to talk to him. Look, this is a massive dude. Now, I was 6'2", probably 250 at the time. And he's 6'2", 300 pounds but he was all muscle. I mean, like solid as a rock. But he was a really cool dude, and I say that. I know he robbed people and shit like that, but he could have been an asshole to me or anything else, but I would hang out and stand in front of the cell late at night and shit. I'm entertainment for them also. We were talking and I found out that Etienne was a boxer, and he was actually on DCI's boxing team, but also found out that he was an accomplished artist.He asked me when we're talking one night, said, "You married? You dating someone?" I said, "I'm dating someone." "Can you give me a picture of her?" "Bro, I'm not bringing you a picture of my girlfriend." [Jim laughs] He said, "No. I'm an artist. I'm going to draw a picture and you can give it to her." So, the next time I came back to work, I got a little snapshot and I gave it to him. The next evening, I came back to work, and he had hand sketched an exact likeness of this girl. And I can't remember her last name. I think her first name was Debbie. It was just fucking piece of artwork and I was blown away. It's on a basic piece of paper done in pencil. I'm like, "Bruh, you got talent." I didn't know what I would come to find out later on and what we're going to talk about.Also, I talked to him about boxing because I like boxing, and I like to box. Both of my grandfathers went to college for boxing, one at USL and one for LSU. They boxed on the college boxing teams. I asked him, I said, "You get into a fight--" just more like bullshit. I said, "If you're going to hit somebody." He said, "Woody, if you're going to hit somebody, I want you to hit him hard as you can in the stomach. Don't let him know it's coming. You rear back, full body swing. Hit him in the stomach." And I said, "Why is that?" He said, "Because if you do it right, you're going to knock the air out of him. Then, they're defenseless. You can just beat him to a pulp."Jim: Yeah.Woody: He would go on to become the Interprison Boxing Champion for the state ofLouisiana. Y'all, each prison has their own boxing team, and it's big shit.Jim: Yeah. I'm going to tell you about his reputation in prison and a little bit about a trainer that had actually started working with him in prison. There was a guy named Valrice Cooper. And Valrice Cooper had a nickname. It was Whoop. They called him Whoop because of boxing. Whoop, whoop. That's how he would say when you punch. It was a whoop. Everybody knew Whoop in the prison system. He was a steward of the Louisiana prison boxing scene. He was an inmate himself. Whoop, he didn't have the pleasure of meeting Etienne until after the boxer-- He was already the most dominant prison fighter in Louisiana. As Woody said, these different prisons have their own boxing teams. Angola has one, DCI has one. There's one in North Louisiana.Woody: Hunt.Jim: Hunt has one. This is a big deal in prison, these boxing teams. Whoop was the guywho kind of managed that, even as an inmate.Woody: Basically, helped Etienne perfect his craft better.Jim: Absolutely. He had heard about this guy, this 6'2", 290-pound fighter, and he started working with Etienne. From the first second he saw him, he could tell from his movement, he had a ton of natural talent. He countered right, he stepped back right, he circled correctly. As a matter of fact, Whoop would describe him as a prison version of Muhammad Ali, y'all. That's how good he was. Anybody describes you as Muhammad Ali, you're good. But theprison version of Muhammad Ali from a guy who really knew that sport was amazing. Etienne continued to dominate in the prison world. He actually won 30 bouts, never lost.Woody: Y'all, real quick. Certainly, they would practice amongst themselves at Dixon Correctional Institute, etc.Jim: Shadow box.Woody: Right. Well, you're locked in a cell, you got a lot of time to shadow box. Jim: [laughs] That's right.Woody: These bouts we're talking about that, they would actually go to other prisons, or sometimes they would host it there, and they would fight against other prisoners in the state. At the end of the year, whoever had the most wins got the banner.Jim: That's right. And these were big deals. As a matter of fact- Woody: Huge.Jim: -family of these prisoners would go to the boxing matches and they would have to pay. They would have to buy tickets. It was $5 for adults, $3 for children back then, and you would watch as if you were watching sanctioned event on HBO.Woody: Even though they wore headgear, the bouts were three 3-minute rounds. I would bet you people love to go see the radio because they care about getting hurt and laying up in an infirmary in the air conditioner rather than a cell block. I bet you these guys got in there-- I wish I would have got to see one and just tried to absolutely annihilate each other.Jim: I'm sure there was a lot of first-round knockouts. Headgear or no headgear. Woody: Headgear really doesn't mean shit.Jim: [laughs]Woody: It's not like you're wearing the NFL helmet.Jim: Oh, yeah. Some of these people are lifers, y'all. Look, they're in there and they're swinging. You've heard on Real Life Real Crime, Woody described like prison muscle. It's a totally different type of muscle and all these guys had it. He fought in the heavyweight and the super heavyweight divisions. So, he was fighting the baddest of the bad, the biggest of the big-Woody: And beating them.Jim: -and beating them. Just never losing, 30 bouts inside. And that gets around. Outside of the prison system, Don King and all these guys are hearing about this Clifford Etienne and how he is the toughest man in prison and winning all these bouts. After his 10th year in prison, he gets paroled.Woody: Right, which is basically, y'all, I would tell you that that's because of the outside influences from these promoters. They were like, "This guy can be heavyweight champion of the world." They go in for the parole board, "Look, we got contracts. We're going to train him. We're going to keep him on the straight and narrow. He can be on parole if need be, but we need permission to get his boxing license and everything else."Jim: Well, let me tell you how promoters think. Number one, you've got an extremely talented individual to start with. He's getting paroled from prison. Here's your chance. I don't know if this is fact, but I would imagine his success helped with his parole because in a parole board's mind, this guy can probably actually rehabilitate and change his life because he's going to have unique opportunities not everybody is going to have when they're released from prison. He was well known.Woody: Let me digress for a second. The reason he was on the working cell block, he got in a fight with a guard, with a correctional officer--Jim: Named Woody Overton.Woody: No, it wasn't me.[laughter]Woody: I wouldn't have fought that dude. [laughter]Woody: He got in a fight with a correction officer. Now, when they went to the board hearing, and I remember telling me this, he had already been on the boxing team. So, the board considered his hands deadly weapons. So, they charged him with fighting with deadly weapons on a correction officer.Jim: Oh, wow.Woody: That's why he got sent to the hole for that. Now, he did his 90 days, maybe a little bit longer, maybe he went twice, I don't remember. But he got out while I was still there. He was good. He was locked on the block. He was good. He was never any problem. He was actually a pretty cool dude. He got out. You know why he got out too? He wanted to box again. He was like, "Fuck that. Imma going to behave. I know my future is in boxing."Jim: Yeah, he was just the shit, y'all, in the Louisiana prison system and really the national-- He was well known in prisons all over the country as probably the best boxer to ever come out of prison. You're talking about-- look, Sonny Liston came out of prison, and he was getting a lot of comparisons to Sonny Liston. These promoters, they're not only salivating at the chance to get a hold to a guy who has an extreme amount of talent, he also had a hell of a story, and they loved that. He had a nickname in prison, which was the Black Rhino. Come on, y'all, if that don't scare you before you fight the 6'2", 290-pound boxer, I don't know what does.Woody: Basically, he got that because the most dangerous animal in the world, the Black Rhinoceros or the Black Rhino was the name that he embraced. Like Jim said, these promoters, holy shit, now you got the Black Rhino coming out of prison that would sell tickets regardless.Jim: Look, you can't spin a better story with all this. He gets out and he turns pro in 1998. Woody: That was five years after I left him or after the last time I saw him.Jim: So, how does he do? Well, his first four opponents, he knocked them out. As a matter of fact, three of those first four was inside of the first ring.Woody: He's cold cocking people.Jim: Cold cocking people. Ring Magazine actually named him-- believe it or not, y'all, hewas later named The Most Exciting Heavyweight Fighter of the 2000s. Woody: That's true.Jim: How about that?Woody: He absolutely was destroying people. I remember late 80s, early 90s, when Tyson was coming up, and when pay per view had first come out, and we had all put up $20 and got a keg of beer, and he knocked out Spinks in like 30 seconds or whatever it was. Black Rhino was doing the same thing. A lot of the times, when big guys fight, they'll get tired and they'll hug on each other and stuff. Black Rhino didn't have time to get tired. He was annihilating people, like Tyson did when he was young.Jim: Yes. And loving it. And what's he doing? He's living his best life, y'all. He's making tons of money. He's knocking people out for a living. Everybody's courting him. And he does what sadly, a lot of-- seems like it's not just athletes, but it seems like they struggle with this because there's so much of an influx of money under such a short period of time.Woody: And fame.Jim: And fame and all of that, that he starts dabbling in cocaine. Woody: Right. A line here, a line there.Jim: Yeah. Give me a little bit of that sugar, whatever you tell them.Woody: In the beginning, you think you can handle, it makes you feel even better. You're already on top of the world. Remember, you came from a working cell block. First of all, you got out in 10 years instead of 40. You come from a working cell block. You build yourself up to the prison boxing system, and now you're building yourself up as one of the top heavyweights in the world.Jim: That's right. And he continues on. He continues knocking people out, and eventually he scoops up the IBA Continental heavyweight title. He actually won that title in Baton Rouge.Woody: In Baton Rouge. It was at the Belle of Baton Rouge in the atrium. I didn't get to go for whatever reason, but I remember when it was happening and the white guy from the cell reached out to me, said, "I can get you tickets. Do you want to come see him?" And I couldn't go for whatever reason. But yeah, he won that there. Even though that's not like the biggest championship in the world, it's still a championship belt.Jim: That's right. And continues on. Eventually, he suffers his first loss, that was in March of 2001, and y'all, it was a beating. He actually got floored seven times in that bout.Woody: Knocked down seven times, and on the eighth, I think the referee finally stopped it, but he said it was just basically like a blood bath. But Black Rhino never gave it up. You knocked me down two times, I'm probably going to stay down. Seven times, but he kept getting up and fighting back.Jim: That's it.Woody: Finally, the ref is like, "Number eight, I got to stop this shit, he's going to kill him."Jim: Yeah, he went out on his shield and never quit. After that bout, you may start to think, "Well, that was it." Well, no. Etienne couldn't be stopped. He ended up fighting six more bouts after his loss and knocked everybody out. He was again the talk of the boxing scene. When you become that much of the talk of the boxing scene, eventually you're going to run into somebody you got to fight.Woody: When he was talking to the boxing scene, basically, besides being the Black Rhino, and he was always compared to young Mike Tyson.Jim: Yeah. They actually knew each other before the opportunity showed its face and always got along. If you're a Tyson fan, you would know that he grew up very rough. He was very similar to Etienne, except for Cus D'Amato discovered Tyson before he had gotten so far out of hand that his whole life would have been spent in prison. Much younger when Tyson got discovered at 12 years old by Cus D'Amato. Etienne and Tyson had a respect for each other because they both came from the streets, they were both super tough, both amazing boxers. And in 2003-Woody: Memphis, Tennessee. Jim: That's it. Tyson come a calling.Woody: Tyson came calling. That was the first fight-- if y'all remember this, that was the first fight that Tyson had the tribal tattoos on his face.Jim: Yes. If Tyson wasn't scary enough, he comes out-- and look, Etienne, I'm sure, was intimidated just like-- Tyson can intimidate anybody. I don't care how tough you are. Yeah. Except for Holyfield maybe. [laughs]Woody: Yeah, he bit his ear off.Jim: He did do that. In 2003, Tyson, the pinnacle of boxing and the Etienne fight, and Tysonbeats the shit out of Etienne in 48 seconds.Woody: Now, the same guy from the LP, I talked to him after that, and he told me that what happened is one of the first punches that Tyson landed hit the Black Rhino on his eardrum and it busted his inner ear. So, Etienne's equilibrium was off, and he couldn't even defend himself.Jim: Yeah. Could you imagine how hard Tyson hits to bust your freaking inner eardrum? Woody: In one punch. To Etienne's credit, he tried to stand and do whatever, shit, your roomspinning. I can't imagine that. Tyson, he ain't going to quit punching.Jim: [laughs] No, he ain't. And I will never forget the interview, because actually, I can distinctly picture myself when I watched that live. I actually watch that fight live. After the broadcast, Jim Gray, who was a famous interviewer in boxing, pulls Tyson and he says, "What did you think of Etienne?" and all that, "And how did your training go?" Tyson says, "I broke my back last week." [laughs] And I'll never forget. I was like, "What?" It was bizarre, y'all.Woody: That's crazy.Jim: He supposedly broke his back in training.Woody: The reason they were fighting in Memphis, Tennessee, Tyson couldn't get licensed in Nevada or anywhere else because of the rape allegations and all that.Jim: Yeah. If you're getting a little upset about Etienne because he lost and all that, don't cry for him too much.Woody: He made a million bucks.Jim: [chuckles] Literally a million bucks in 48 seconds.Woody: Paid for 48 seconds, I think I could last for 48 seconds. He might have hit me in the back of the head, but I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off. For 48 seconds, I'm going to give you a show for a million dollars.Jim: For a million dollars.Woody: I'll fight Tyson a day for a million dollars.Jim: I'm telling you. Yeah. Etienne gets that million bucks. He unfortunately does what a lot of people who get money that never had money do. And that is he blows it. He buys sports cars, jewelry, multiple houses, and he actually got into a couple of businesses that suffered. He was in a busing company. It went nowhere. He opened a restaurant-- or he actually started a restaurant that never opened. He did the cardinal sin in any business which is, didn't pay his taxes.Woody: Right.Jim: I don't care who you are, ask Al Capone about that.Woody: Tax man cometh.Jim: Tax man cometh. So, he's spiraling downward.Woody: Yeah. He's not surrounded by the best people either, taking advantage of him. Like I said, he never had so many cousins.Jim: Okay. He's going along in life, Etienne, and he's making a lot of bad decisions. At some point, he decides it is a good idea to go get some money as he was spending all of his. [crosstalk] He figures, what better place to get money than a check cashing place, right?Woody: Genius idea.Jim: The only problem was he didn't have no checks. Woody: He didn't have a checkbook.Jim: He didn't have anything to cash.Woody: I'll tell you what he did have, he had a pistol. Jim: He had a pistol.Woody: He had a cocaine habit.Jim: And a bad cocaine habit.Woody: Getting as high as fuck, yeah.Jim: That's right. Etienne goes to a check cashing place in Baton Rouge with a gun, and he pulls the weapon, and he decides he's going to hold up this check cashing place, and he gets a little-- I guess you could say a little pushback on that from the check cashing people. He takes a gun, and he shoots it in the air, and he says, "I will kill you, bitch." That's exactly what he said, because they have it on recording because she was dialing 911 while this was going on.Woody: She was an African American.Jim: African American female. Eventually, he gets in his hands $2,000 after he fires thatthing in the air, and he hauls ass out of there.Woody: Right. Unbeknownst to him, the silent alarm had been hit and Baton Rouge PD was responding in force. They met him in the parking lot.Jim: They did. They were there really fast for a specific reason. And that was that same day, sadly, an officer in Baton Rouge named Terry Melancon who was serving a warrant with some other officers in Baton Rouge was tragically killed.Woody: They were making the entry-- we call it a high-risk warrant. It was a narcotics warrant. They were making entry in the door, and he was shot and killed. Rest in peace, brother. I was on the SWAT team at the time that happened. We went from serving high-risk warrants narcotics-- We used to do them every day without the SWAT team because the SWAT because it took so long. The policy got changed after that. Any high-risk entry warrant, you had to use the SWAT team. Rest in peace, brother.Jim: Yeah. It was really just more bad timing for Etienne as this was going on, they were able to easily get there.Woody: Before they got there, he's trying to make an escape. Well, you know what? I think he [unintelligible 00:31:37] this time, he goes rob a check cash in place with a piece of shit pistol, and he leaves, and he's trying to make his getaway, and he makes two attempts.Jim: That's right. An officer with the Baton Rouge City Police Department, who was in an Exxon station across the street from the cash door, received a report of an armed robbery in progress. Comes over his radio, and the officer observed one of the check cashing employees actually outside of the business at this point, and he could tell she was panicking. At this point, he goes across the street and he starts talking to her and he says, "Did you report an armed robbery?" And she says, "Yes." A bunch of police officers at this time are pulling up. It becomes pandemonium. Etienne escapes into a little wooded area, and when he comes out of that wooded area, he sees a vehicle, and he just jumps in the vehicle. I guess he thought he was going to hot-wire it or whatever. He didn't realize when he jumped in there were two children in the back of that vehicle.He goes to start it, realizes, "Oh, shit, there's no keys." The lady had ran into this beauty supply place and just left her kids in there while, I guess, she was quickly grabbing shampoo or something. He goes to steal that vehicle, realizes the keys aren't on in it, and the cops are kind of on to him at this point. They're pursuing him through the woods, and he's panicking. He's in a bind and--Woody: Still armed.Jim: Yeah, still armed. He immediately exits the vehicle, and he has his weapon in his hand, and he aims it at two police officers.Woody: Not only does he aim it- Jim: He pulls the trigger. Woody: -pulls the trigger.Jim: And the gun jams.Woody: Click. It's probably a piece of shit, high-tech 9-millimeter or whatever. I'm sure if it was an expensive weapon, he could have traded for coke instead of trying to rob a cash store. He pulled it and pulled it again.Jim: He panics again, obviously, because at this point, y'all, Etienne just tried to shoot two police officers. If it wasn't for that gun jamming, he would have shot them, possibly killed them. So, he panics. He runs to a gold Pontiac Grand Am. He opens the door, and there's a driver in there. He puts the gun to the driver's head. He says, "Get out." The driver, he protests this. Why? Because his two young children are in the vehicle.Woody: It's kiddie daycare around there.Jim: That's it. Etienne pulls him out of the car physically, throws him to the ground, jumps in the car, and starts to drive away in reverse at a high rate of speed. He just basically goes backwards. He gets about 60ft. The vehicle hits a curb, and it stalls. Officers approach the vehicle with the weapons drawn, and they apprehend Etienne. How do you think that apprehension went?Woody: I don't know, man. I mean, his weapon's jammed, and what we call a felony stop, I'm sure Black Rhino ended up getting some dirt in his face.Jim: Oh, I can look. And then, don't forget, they are already dealing with that day a police officer getting shot and killed.Woody: Absolutely. And you just tried to kill--Jim: And you just tried to kill two more. If I'm a police officer, you're getting a fist to the face. Woody: Yeah, well, definitely.Jim: Swim would have punched him.Woody: Yes, Swim.Jim: [laughs]Woody: Swim would have gave him some justice, that was just us. But he might have sprung a leak too. Anyway, he gets arrested, armed robbery, two counts of attempted first-degree murder on police officers. So, God or somebody was taking care of them and those officers letting that pistol jam.Jim: Amen.Woody: He gets prosecuted, y'all, by the Baton Rouge's DA's office. And the prosecutor was Prem Burns. Now, I don't think we've ever talked about her on Bloody Angola, but I know her. I've been in the courtroom with her. She is fire. They had their best prosecutor on it, Hillar Moore's best prosecutor. The DA generally, in bigger parishes, is a political figurehead who oversees all the cases, but they have their top lieutenants or generals, whatever you want to call them, that handle the big cases. Prem Burns was the one.Jim: And well known for the serial killing.Woody: Yeah. For Derrick Todd Lee. As well as every top case in East Baton Rouge. She said that across 34 years and 100 plus felony cases and even taking down meddling cartel members and serial killers that she recalls looking at Etienne and thinking, that dude is huge, she remembers the day he was sentenced, he said something to her like, "I'm so sorry. The drugs were just really bad for me." But Burns also remember the 911 call and the words Etienne barked out that were recorded on security footage says, "I'm going to kill you." She remembers using that against him in her opening remarks. She remembers the jury convicting the boxer quickly and easily.Years later, the prosecutor picked apart Etienne's processing the trial, and he said he received insufficient representation. She was like, "Dude, you could have Johnny Cochrane and you weren't getting off on this charge." And the jury are possibly in prejudice. She was like, "Your victims were black. You're black. It's not a racial issue." Anyway, he got sentenced to forever this time, but for luck, he would have been on death row. Y'all, he got 160 years. And guess where he was going? Bloody-Jim: -Angola.[chuckles]Jim: No doubt about it. And look, let's recap real quick. This is a guy that just a couple of years-- as a matter of fact, a year before this, had just gotten a million dollars and fought arguably the most-- I would say the second most popular boxer of all time outside of Muhammad Ali, which was Mike Tyson. Definitely the most popular boxer in my era, by far. And now, you just got sentenced to forever, as Woody aptly put it, the rest of your life, pretty much in Angola. Etienne actually, in 2004, for whatever reason, applied for a pardon to Mike Foster, the then governor, which was denied, obviously. I don't know if he thought his popularity might get him a pardon, but it wasn't working with Mike Foster.Woody: I think he was also trying to say stuff about traumatic brain injury and CTE and all that other bullshit.Jim: Right. Look, here's why I don't buy that at all. I definitely think that brain injury from boxing or pro football, absolutely, it affects your decision making and all those sorts of things. But you were doing this at 18. I mean, you were robbing people at 18.Woody: This lawyer said he's entitled to a new sentence because the CTE should be a major consideration. He said, "It's not his fault. The science wasn't there ahead of time. So, he did not do all this bullshit." I'm not even going touch on that anymore.Jim: Yeah, that's ridiculous. Now, one thing we haven't mentioned to you is a unique-- and when I tell y'all this is a unique and an absolutely God-given talent is his ability in the painting world. Art, paintings, canvas.Woody: I told you about the drawing. I didn't know that he was a painter also, but he drew that picture of that girl for me.Jim: Yeah. If you're a Patreon member of any sort, we're going to put this on Patreon. It's just some examples of his artwork. It is unbelievable, y'all. God definitely touched him and gave him a talent with artwork. So, we're going to put that up there. Look, Woody mentioned this earlier, and I want to read this to y'all. Woody had mentioned, "Hey, he was a nice guy."Woody: Yeah. He was cool.Jim: Great personality. Cool dude. I'm going to read you a letter that he wrote to a fan. This is in 2019, so this is fairly recent. I'm also going to put this up on Patreon. But a fan had just wrote to him and asked him for an autograph, basically, a boxing fan. He said, "Sorry I took so long getting back to you. Just rediscovered the letter you sent me at the end of May. I always take time writing anyone back since they took time to write me. All letters are screened for contraband, and because of some drug heads attempts to smuggle contraband in here, the mailroom discarded the index card you sent me to sign. So, I'm sending you this large piece of paper signed by me. To answer your questions, I am still healthy, and I look forward to a better future. I WILL GET OUT OF HERE." And he says that in all caps."I paint and I cut hair almost every day. Number three, I'm not in a cell. I'm in a dormitory with a bit over 100 guys. I do watch TV sometimes, mostly news and sports. I have a TV in the barber shop where I work. Number four, my whole boxing career was an interesting story. Started writing a book about it, but I haven't finished. Number five, fighting Mike Tyson was like fighting the other 30 fighters I fought. It was a job that took care of my family. I never got into all the hype. I met Tyson years before they even talked about us fighting each other. Number six, the most fun I had in boxing ring was every time the referee raised my hand as the winner after all that hard training. You take care of yourself, and I wish you and yours all the best. Clifford Etienne."Woody: Pretty cool.Jim: Reading that letter, that don't sound like a guy they tried to kill two police officers, rob a check cashing place. So, when Woody mentioned that, "Yeah, he seemed like a cool, nice guy," reading that letter that sounds like a guy that is out of prison right now, is living his best life, just doesn't sound like that type of character, does it?Woody: But that cocaine shit, does funny shit, even less [crosstalk] to people and will never take away the fact.Jim: Nose gold.Woody: Not only did he try to kill those two officers, but who knows what would have happened to those kids in the car, etc., had he not wrecked it, and stalled it out. But when he went back in the prison this time, y'all, it wasn't without incident. He had issues, he survived an attack. He would start painting, but we'll talk about that. He would start painting. The last I had heard of him before we talked about this, was I was watching something on the Rodeo about Angola Radio and they had him selling his paintings and they were street scenes and murals. Now, you're not allowed to make money off your crimes. He's not painting trying to kill two cops, but he's painting like murals-- Not murals, but like oil paints. Shit would cost you $20,000 in a gallery, and it was fantastic. The one I saw was of a second line that's a funeral procession for those from Louisiana where they play the music, the jazz band does it and they go behind the coffin and all that. But he was very, very good at it. And his paintings are hanging all across the world, people commissioned to do paintings, etc. But even when he was in the painting room one time, somebody tried to kill him.Jim: Yeah. So bad in fact that he had to get transferred.Woody: Right.Jim: I do want to mention on those paintings, a lot of people may be surprised to know thatone of his paintings hangs in the New Orleans Police Department. Woody: Oh, I didn't know this.Jim: Sure enough, yeah, I found that somewhere. [laughs] Woody: Only Jim Chapman can get that shit up.Jim: I found that somewhere. There's a picture online where the two New Orleans PD officers are posing in the police department and his painting is hanging. I guess to them, it's an example of convicts have talent too somewhere. God touches us all, gives us all unique talents, and that was his. And it's just a shame. In addition to his boxing, which was also a unique talent.Woody: I'm going to digress for a second when I said he attacked a correctional officer with fists, I believe now, I'm thinking back on-- I think it was just another inmate. But instead of being charged with a regular fist fight, which wouldn't send you to working cell block, they charged him for fighting with weapons because his hands were considered deadly weapons because he's such a renowned boxer.Jim: I believe it.Woody: Y'all, he would go on-- after that attack, he talks about surviving COVID when they put them all in cells. When everybody else in the world is trying to be separated, they were locking them down. He talks about that, but at some point after the attack, another inmate, a friend of his, told him, say, "Hey, man, basically you got to get shit together." I mean, he'd let himself go, he'd gained weight, he was dressing sloppily. And Etienne listened to him. So, he started dressing better. He shaved his head bald. He started to exercise every day at 5:00 in the morning. He said he stayed away from rats or dudes, they would never amount to shit in their lives. That friend asked him, "What do you need to start painting again?" Etienne told him. Two weeks later, the supplies arrived like magic, canvas boards, paints and brushes. The friend told Etienne, "You're the Black Rhino. The man who went from prison to pinnacle boxing." Eventually, Etienne returned to the painting room, hearing or no hearing, he had to move forward. Now, talk about his hearing, y'all, I told you his eardrum got busted.Jim: By Mike Tyson.Woody: By Mike Tyson, and his equilibrium was still off and all that. But he to this day paints. Jim and I have had several offers to attend the Angola Radio, and I said that's the last fucking place you'll ever catch me on the face of this earth because of all the people I've put up there. But if I ever do go, I'm going to go see the Black Rhino.Jim: There you go.Woody: And I guarantee he remembers--[crosstalk]Jim: We need to do that trip soon, and that would make for a great episode. Incidentally, we do want to welcome Woody back. Last week, of course, I flew solo for you Patreon members.Woody: I appreciate you doing that.Jim: So, we did a bonus episode. It's only up on Patreon, so if you're curious to hear about it was called Iron Mike.Woody: Iron Mike.Jim: It's about a guy that could fight in prison for sure, but it's just an absolutely crazy story of a guy who killed three inmates inside of Angola and just some amazing stuff there. But Woody was on a special assignment, which in the future we'll be able to tell everybody about. And I also recorded another episode that I'll be dropping as a bonus episode. It's Boss Bitches Part 2. But I'm glad to have Woody back now because I have to freaking think all by myself, brother. [laughs]Woody: I appreciate it but tell them about Boss Bitches 2.Jim: Yes, Boss Bitches 2. Of course, if you listen to the first one, we feature Martha Stewart, M. Diddy, and a bunch of other lady convicts. And this one, much of the same. It's four other lady convicts. Look, join Patreon and you'll find out who they are. How about that?Woody: Y'all, you go and check it out. We have numerous bonus episodes. Jim, I appreciate you covering me while I'm gone.Jim: No worries, man.Woody: The bonus episodes are fire, and as are all Bloody Angola. But the Patreon, wehave different tier levels now each, go look it up. It'll be in the show notes.Jim: Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned it, because I want to shout out-- We've got over 130 members now. We're blessed to have that. They support us. We couldn't do this without them. So, we're going to read out real quick each of our Tie Down and Warden Team members, give them of a shoutout. Just to tell you really fast are what our teams include. The Warden Team is our top tier. You get ad-free episodes, obviously, early access to these episodes. You get full transcripts of all the Bloody Angola Thursday regular drops. Any shows that we do that are live, you get automatic VIP access. And you get a free piece of Bloody Angola of merch every quarter. So, four times a year, we're sending you something. I know I've sent out a bunch of merch lately to a bunch of people that are our Warden Team members, I appreciate y'all so much. If you're a Warden Team member, you haven't got that first piece of merch, please just message me and we'll get it to you.Woody: If you're a Patreon member on any level-- because it's a lot y'all, but it's very important to us. If we miss something, we're human beings. Please, please message us, check into it.Jim: Yes, that's our Warden Team. We also have our Tie Down Team, which they get ad-free episodes, early access, full transcripts of those Thursday drops, and they also get our Sally Port companion episodes like the Boss Bitches that we're going to drop as a bonus for them. Woody is going to read our Tie Down Teams, and I'm going to read our Warden Teams today.Woody: And the Tie Down Team gets you--Jim: That gets you the ad-free episodes, the early access, the full transcripts, and the Sally Port companion episodes.Woody: Carol Hagen, you are a love. We appreciate you for being a Tie Down Team member. I hope you're enjoying your benefits. We appreciate you so much. All right, Kirsten Dahl. Now, Kirsten has been a Lifer forever, and she used to send me pickles and all kinds of stuff, Jim.Jim: There you go.Woody: But thank you, Kirsten, for supporting Bloody Angola also. We really, really love and appreciate you. You're awesome. Lisa Stevens, I know who you are. Thank you for being a Tie Down Team member. We love and appreciate you so much. And Tina Johnson. Tina, thank you for being a Tie Down team member. You rock. You kick ass. And we appreciate you. We couldn't do without you. Ms. Julie Easterday. Julie, thank you so much for being a Tie Down Team member. Enjoy those benefits, sweetie.Jim: All right. We also want to thank our Warden Team members. Our Warden Team is our top tier. You just can't get any more than what we give those Warden Team members. They are high support. Look, if you can't even be a Patreon member, we still love you and appreciate you.Woody: Absolutely.Jim: But we really, really appreciate the support of all our Patreon team, especially ourWarden Team members.Woody: Especially in these hard times when eggs are $9 a dozen and you take the time to subscribe, we're going to hook you up.Jim: That's right. So, Melissa Jewel, thank you so much for being a Warden Team member. Ms. Christine Spence.Woody: Thank you, Christine.Jim: Thank you so very much for being a Warden Team member. And how about Ms. AmberMorrow?Woody: Ms. Amber. Thank you. We love you. We appreciate you.Jim: 100%. Ms. Lisa Marks.Woody: Ms. Lisa Marks, we don't even have a term for you. You know we love you.Jim: Double Warden Team member. [laughs] She's just amazing. Thank you so much. Love you. Mandy Oliver.Woody: Mandy Oliver.Jim: Ms. Mandy.Woody: Thank you so much. She's awesome.Jim: Leah [unintelligible [00:53:53].Woody: A part-time researcher, full-time crime junkie. Jim: And hellraiser. [laughs]Woody: You don't want to mess with Leah. Leah, thank you so much.Jim: That's right. That's our Warden Team and we really appreciate the support of all of those members. We're going to be shouting out as many as we can every week here going forward. Thank you so much. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.[chuckles]Jim: Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe Derouen in Studio 433, with vocals by Thomas Cain. Created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Woody Overton.[Bloody Angola theme]Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola Podcast, Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell the story of Robert Lee Willie who was executed at Bloody Angola in 1984 and his story was part of the inspiration for the movie "Dead Man Walking"Woody and Jim Cover the victims, the crimes and the eventual execution of willie via electric chair. #DeadManWalking #BloodyAngolaPodcast #truecrime #robertwillie #prison #convict #podcast #susansonrandon #seanpenn #hollywood #serialkillers #louisianaFull TranscriptTHE REAL DEAD MAN WALKINGJim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Y'all, we have got, Woody, I'd say one of the most highly requested stories we've had since we started.Woody: Right. I agree with you but when people request this, they are thinking about a movie. They don't know the real story.Jim: They don't. As someone who, in preparation of this episode, actually watched the movie again, I can say it's nothing like it.Woody: No doubt you did your research and the homework on it. Once again, you found out things that I didn't even know. But I knew the true story, and I knew when I saw the movie, it was two different things put together. But this is-- some of this, y'all, is going to be hard to hear, but we always told you it'd be different on Bloody Angola.Jim: That's right.Woody: So, we're going to get to talking today, and we're going to call the name this episode The Real Dead Man Walking. And y'all, we're talking about Robert Willie. Okay, so I'm going to start telling you about Faith Colleen Hathaway. Now, Faith was born in Orlando, y'all, in 1961, but she grew up in Mandeville, Louisiana. Mandeville is about an hour east drive of Baton Ridge and right across Lake Pontchartrain from New Orleans. Faith had been around, her family traveled a lot. Her family had left Louisiana for a few years and then the mid-1970s to travel, and they spent a lot of time in Ecuador and Haiti. I guess maybe they're doing mission work or something.Jim: Yeah, primarily mission work.Woody: Well, going to these different countries helped Faith develop a love for learning different languages and sparked her interest in joining the military. She knew that soldiers who were bilingual were desired and sought after by the US Army at the time. By her senior year of high school, she signed her commitment to join army, just like I did. So, immediately following graduation, she was going to get shipped out to basic training.Jim: That's it. On May 21st, 1980, she did just that, Woody Overton. She graduated from high school, and at 18 years old, she had her sights on reporting to active duty. That was like a week later, on May 28th of 1980, she was to report.Woody: She's rolling.Jim: She's rolling just a week after graduation, but sadly, she never made it. On May 27th, 1980, Faith awoke, she had breakfast at McDonald's in Mandeville, which is a smaller town back then. Now, it's-Woody: Yeah, it's pretty big.Jim: -pretty big. But back then, it was just a little Podunk town. And she did some shopping. She actually shopped for support bras because her recruiter mentioned she's going to probably need those for basic training and she was running out of time to have to report as basic training, as we told you, was the next day. She returned to the apartment complex her mom managed where her and a friend, they shared a separate unit from her mother and stepfather. She's 18, and it was the 70s all. It was different. Nowadays, you think about that and it's like, "What?"Woody: Right. "I'm not going to let my daughter do that." But totally different time, totally different world.Jim: Totally. She decided she wanted to go swimming in the pool. So, she did that. Then, she gets dressed and she had kind of her last day at work before joining basic training and she worked at a local restaurant.Woody: Yeah. The difference between her and I, when I went eight years later, I wasn't trying to work in the [crosstalk]Jim: [chuckles] I wouldn't either.Woody: That shows her commitment. I was getting drunk to shit for probably a week before.But she was go-getter.Jim: Worked all the way to her last day at work. After working her shift, she had some friends who contact her. Well, one friend in particular. She said, "Hey, let's go out for drinks after you get off work. It's your last night in town." And so, that's what they did. They go to a local bar and celebrate her leaving the next day for basic training.Woody: The next morning comes and that's May the 28th and Faith's mom went to Faith's room or her apartment, whatever you want to call it, to spend some time with her before her army recruiter showed up to pick her up and bring her to the military bus that would take her to basic training. When Faith's mom opened the bedroom door, she was surprised to see that Faith hadn't slept in her bed. She woke up Faith's roommate and asked her to say, "Hey, where's Faith at?" And her roommate said that she had gone to bed early the night before and hadn't seen Faith since she left for work the prior night. Faith's mom then calls-- now y'all, there was no cell phone, Faith's mom then calls the friend that Faith had drinks with the night before and she was hoping that Faith had stayed the night at her house, but she hadn't.So, naturally what do moms do? Because this wasn't like Faith. Her mom panicked. And she got in contact with Faith's biological father who lived in New Orleans. And Faith was really tight with him, and she told him, said, "Hey, I can't find Faith. And she never came home evidently." He jumps into action and went straight to the police and reported her missing, both to the Mandeville Police Department and the St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's Office.Jim: Yeah, this guy just kind of got into action. Went dad mode, and mom was in a panic, understandably. Thank God, one of them could keep a level head long enough to think about what to do. On the following day, which was Thursday, May 29th, 1980, a multi-state alert was basically put out on her disappearance. By Sunday, personal articles of clothing werediscovered in a remote 47-acre tract of land in Franklinton, Louisiana, which is about an hour's drive north, y'all, of Mandeville, where she was last seen.Woody: In Washington Parish. Really, really rural. Jim: Yeah. Very rural.Woody: [crosstalk] -over there is papermill.Jim: That's it. And you can smell it when you're passing through. The belongings were discovered really by mere chance. There was a family. They were picnicking in the area, and their seven-year-old daughter walked up to them, and the daughter had a tube of lipstick. The mother asked her, she said, "Where did you get that?" And the child said behind a tree. There's a lot of stuff back there. So, the family kind of goes back there and looks, and they discover a full case of makeup, a bunch of clothing that turned out to be Faith's. How they kind of knew it was her was they found a billfold with her driver's license in it, and it had some other belongings. They go straight to Covington, Louisiana, and return those to the sheriff's office, not realizing at the time that this person was missing. They were just being good citizens.Woody: They know Faith's missing, and now they know basically you don't get a female doesn't go anywhere without her purse or makeup and ID and all that, but her clothes were there. So, they jump into action, and a search party was formed. On Wednesday, June of 4th, 1980, Faith's body was found in some thick underbrush just 200 yards from where her belongings were found five days earlier. Faith had been brutally raped, and her throat had been slashed. Her body was locked up in rigor mortis in a spread-eagle position, legs forced open, arms above her head, several severed fingers. This is a sign, y'all, naturally. The severed fingers is a sign that Faith tried to defend herself, but ultimately it was futile. She had been stabbed repeatedly in the neck with a large knife and had a total of 17 stab wounds [unintelligible [00:10:40]. The cut across her throat was so deep that her necklace was embedded into her flesh. The pathologist who performed the autopsy said that her death was not immediate and had to be excruciating. Basically, it took long enough for her to bleed to death. It's a horrible, horrible death.Jim: Yeah.Woody: This isn't like in the woods, y'all. You can imagine being out there fighting for your life, and somebody just slicing you. 17 stab wounds is a lot. But then, you slice the neck so hard that you embed the necklace deep into your neck. It's crazy.Jim: It really is. Woody: 18 years old.Jim: 18 years old, and just about to leave for basic training the morning all this went down really.Woody: Whole life ahead of you.Jim: Whole life ahead of you. Now what no one suspected at the time outside of the police was, well, when Faith's body was found was that a connection was being made. On May 31st, 1980, just three days before the disappearance of Faith Hathaway, another abduction had taken place in the same area. Mark Brewster, who was 20, parked his car near the Tchefuncte River, and that was a lover's lane, and he had a 16-year-old girlfriend. Different time, y'all. I'm not saying I agree with that but it's a different time. It was more common thenthan now. Two men approached the vehicle. They were armed with guns, and they forced Mark into the trunk of the vehicle while driving to Alabama and repeatedly raping his young girlfriend.Now near Wilcox, Alabama, the two men stopped the vehicle in a wooded area. They pull Brewster out of the trunk. They tie him to a tree and they shoot him twice in the head with a .22 revolver before slashing his throat and leaving him for dead.Woody: That's crazy.Jim: Wilcox, Alabama is not a stone's throw from here. Woody: That's away.Jim: It's away. The two men then drive back to Louisiana, repeatedly raping the young girl again the entire way back. Originally, these two assholes brought the girl back to a third man's trailer in Folsom, which is basically halfway between Franklinton and Mandeville in Louisiana. They were using this trailer as a hideout. The man, the third guy, starts making kind of sexual advances towards her. Obviously, these are some real winners, right?Woody: Yeah, right.Jim: However, the girl mentioned at some point that she was raped by the other two guys. And the man starts to panic. So, he goes to the two guys that have really kicked off this whole thing and he says, "Look, you got to let this girl go. We're going to be in a shit pile of trouble." So, that's what they do. They kind of drove her out to the middle of nowhere and dropped her off. She walks to a nearby home and knocks on the door, beats on the door. The occupants, thank God, grab her and bring her to the police station.Woody: Right. On Monday, June the 2nd, miraculously, she was able to lead the cops back to the location of Brewster despite having been locked in the trunk when Brewster was tied to a tree, shot twice, and had his throat slash. When police and the girlfriend arrived on the scene on Tuesday, June the 3rd, Brewster was still alive.Jim: Can you believe that?Woody: The other thing about that I want to say real quick, not only those injuries that hehad, but you're out there in Alabama and- Jim: Tied to a tree.Woody: -in the middle of the summer, can you imagine mosquito bites? I had a case like this. A husband and wife went into the woods around the same time of year when it was hot like that, and they even brought the cat. He shot the cat, he shot her, and shot himself, and she lived. But when I found her, she didn't look like a human being because she had millions of mosquito bites on her. Because her heart was still pumping, the mosquitoes were on it. So, this guy on top of being shot, everything else had to be just absolutely, almost unrecognizable as a human being. Brewster was immediately brought to the South Alabama University Hospital. About the time he underwent surgery, three suspects were arrested in Texarkana after they were recognized by the composite drawings from descriptions made by Brewster's girlfriend. The suspects were Robert Willie, 21, of Covington, Louisiana, Joseph Vaccaro, 28, of Pearl River, Louisiana, and Thomas Holden, 26, of Folsom, Louisiana, y'all. Now, upon suspecting that the crimes were related and one of the crimes taking place across Louisiana state lines, the FBI was brought in to lead the interrogation.The FBI wasn't having any luck at interrogating Willie, and he was saying nothing, but St. Tammany Parish sheriff's deputy named Donald Duck Sharp had known Willie since childhood and was flown up to Texarkana to assist in an interrogation. Within 30 minutes of starting to talk to him, y'all, Lieutenant Sharp produced a picture of Faith Hathaway, to which Robert Willie responded, "I killed her." When pressed further, Willie said that he didn't actually kill her, that Vaccaro slashed her throat. Lieutenant Sharp then went into the interrogation room with Vaccaro and played the tape of Willie stating that Vaccaro slashed Hathaway's throat, to which Vaccaro denied and said that Willie was lying and that he is the one who killed Hathaway. And that's typical interrogation techniques, y'all.Jim: Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. As an interrogator, is it critical to play one against the other--? [crosstalk]Woody: Absolutely. Look, you think your homie is you ride or die until, "I killed her, but no, actually, I didn't kill her. He killed her." You go play it for him and then it's "he said, he said" and you're both getting hooked.Jim: Yeah. I found it interesting that the FBI had the wherewithal to actually admit, "We're not going to get anything out of this guy." That's got to be hard. I mean, as an interrogator, you think you can get everybody to talk.Woody: The thing about the FBI, and I'm not throwing shade on them, and I've worked with them on task force and everything else, they're experts at federal crimes. Okay, they're not expert interrogators, but they were smart enough to know that they needed to bring somebody in to make that personal connection and to give them a start to at least to try to roll. Now, look, I've done it. I've brought in everybody from wives to preachers to high school teachers, whatever the fuck you got to do to get the juice.Jim: Absolutely. This guy having a long history with Willie being that they had known each other since childhood, he was, I guess, someone that Willie would have trusted, and they felt like he would open up to a little more. And how about the name Donald Duck Sharp. Love it. I wonder if he's still around St. Tammany. If you are, we'd love to have you on Bloody Angola.Woody: Let's see, in the 80s, that's what, another 40 something? Yeah, we'd love to have you.Jim: Absolutely. If any of you are listening to this and actually know him or you're listening on Facebook and you can find him, shoot him a message to him, we want him on Bloody Angola. We love to talk to him about his experience with all this.Woody: Props up to him for what he does in this case.Jim: 100%. Now, Lieutenant Sharp goes back in the room with Willie after he talked to Vaccaro and played the tape for him. He says, "Man, y'all are having conflicting stories here." He starts pulling out photos, just tons of photos of the murder scene.Woody: Another absolutely classic interrogation technique. Jim: Really?Woody: Oh, yeah, absolutely.Jim: So, what is he aiming for?Woody: He's aiming for shock value. If you were truly wrong-- somebody's a vicious fucking killer, but someone's a leader, someone's a follower. If you reach a certain point, you got both of them saying this and saying that, you throw it down in front of them and you try to strike a human emotion, being like, "Oh, shit." Because a lot of times in our brain, they may have been drunk or whatever, but they don't remember the real damage. And you see it there-- I would assume, being in color photographs by this time, you see that-- And I've used this in so many cases, you see that, then that'll break most people down.Jim: And you're watching for body language, and how they react, all of those sorts of things. Interesting. He does, he pulls out tons of photos of the murder scene, the body of Faith Hathaway. He kind of goes through them with Willie. Willie is looking at these pictures, and he sees the one with the severed fingers of Hathaway, and he says, "You see her fingers? She tried to grab the knife when Joe was trying to cut her. I reached up and grabbed her hands and I told her to behave."Woody: Oh, my God.Jim: That's horrible. Lieutenant Sharp pressed Willie even harder because now he's starting to kind of talk a little bit more, and he takes that advantage and he says, "You mean you told her to behave while you were cutting her?" And Willie responds, "Yeah." Willie and Vaccaro both told Lieutenant Sharp that Faith told them to let her die in peace, with Willie stating he did not rape Faith, that she wanted to have sex with him.Woody: Oh, yeah, that's why they had to cut her fingers off.Jim: Yeah, and Vaccaro raped her after. However, when Lieutenant Sharp goes to Vaccaro and questions him, he states he couldn't get hard, and although he tried to rape her, he could not get an erection, and that Willie did the raping. Before we go any further on, that just this quick thought. That's okay with them. "I tried to rape her, but I couldn't get hard, so I'm not guilty." You got the other one saying, "Oh, she wanted me to screw her." Freaking crazy. And they think they're going to get out of this? During Lieutenant Sharp's questioning of Willie, Willie told about a third victim that police were unaware of in the same short period as the other two crimes, where Willie and Vaccaro on the same night as the Brewster abduction, attempted to abduct another woman. She screamed, she hollered, she went nuts, and they kind of drove away. That's probably what you should do. If somebody's trying to abduct you, no matter how old you are, flip out.Woody: Fight all you can. It shows their progression that they were progressing in the nature of the crimes, and as seen in this case, they grew to the point where they completed it. But y'all, Willie wasn't any stranger to the cops, and he had a long and distinguished arrest record, including auto theft, trespassing, disturbing the peace, criminal damage property, ag assault, several counts of burglary, all before he was even an adult, before he even turned 18.Jim: And that's a big deal. This guy, before he turned 18, he had a rap sheet.Woody: That's the ones he got arrested for. I tell you that for everyone he got arrested for, there's probably 20 that he was never tied to. Hey, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. John Willie, who's Willie's dad, was serving 27 years in Angola for a bunch of crimes. And in 1954, he went back to Angola for theft of cattle. He was released--Jim: In Angola. [chuckles]Woody: Right. I'll tell you what, there's still a lot in the books in East Louisiana Parish, if you steal cattle, you can be hung. It's not enforceable but--Jim: Look, I'm watching 1923, that's a big deal back then too.Woody: You're taking everything from them. John Willie was released, and guess what? 1964, he was sent back to Angola again, this time for second-degree murder and received a life sentence. But that sentence got commuted to 10 years, and he was released in 1972. But he then went back to Angola for aggravated battery and was released for the last time in 1983. But not all of Willie's bloodline contained convicts. His great grandfather, John Avery Willie, was a deputy for 35 years for the St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's Office and his grandfather for two decades.Jim: Yeah. That's crazy.Woody: That's probably how he knew Donald Duck.Jim: Somewhere along that line, that bloodline changed from heroes to convicts.Woody: I think actually think there's a very fine line. I think the best cops were probably OG convicts-- [crosstalk]Jim: [laughs] They were walking that line.Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: [laughs] I hear you. Just a little history on that, people, a lot of times want to know what the family history was like. Now, the trial for the rape and murder of Faith Hathaway starts. In court, Willie made easy work on the jurors who were looking to send it to him to death. He was a total asshole. He even stated at one point that Cuevas enjoyed being raped. Cuevas was the young lady who was now identified as she was an adult, that was the one who was raped-Woody: [crosstalk] -all the way to Alabama.Jim: -all the way to Alabama and all the way back. He actually had the balls to say she enjoyed that. Vaccaro was found guilty. Although the death penalty for Vaccaro was assault, the jury was not unanimous in the death penalty and Vaccaro receives a life sentence.Woody: Back then, you only had to have 10 out of 12 to get a guilty verdict. On a death penalty case, if you're going-- there's two separate phases. You have the trial phase and if he was found guilty, would have been first-degree murder. Then, you go into the penalty phase. For the penalty phase, if you get the death, it's got to be 12 out of 12. So, somebody felt guilty and didn't want him sentenced to die.Jim: No doubt about it. Now, Willie's mother, Elizabeth Oalman, who would help her son evade police, pled guilty to accessory after the fact and she served one year of a five-year sentence. That was the one thing in the actual movie, Dead Man Walking, they did talk about her prison sentence for helping him kind of evade police after the fact. So, Robert Lee Willie was found guilty of the murder of Faith, and he was sentenced to death. However, there was a technicality, happens a lot in cases. It could have been he wasn't read his rights at some point.Woody: The deal is a death penalty case is scrutinized much harder. I mean, had it been a regular burger case or whatever, probably they wouldn't have been looked at so hard that they could actually find technicality.Jim: Right. No worries because the evidence was stacked against him, he appealed. It had to be retried and he was again found guilty and sentenced to death. Now, next up was a trial for Brewster and the 16-year-old Debbie Cuevas, who I just told you about. You see, in the trial for Faith Hathaway, Debbie Cuevas actually testified. Obviously, she wasn't involved in that court case from a victim standpoint, but she testified maybe to the state of mind of these individuals.Woody: It shows that they're beasts.Jim: Yes.Woody: And that Hathaway wasn't the only one.Jim: 100%. Now, because Brewster and Cuevas were taken across state lines, this became a federal case under the Federal Kidnapping Act, which was brand new back then in 1980, and basically gave federal courts jurisdiction over any kidnapping that goes over state lines. They just have more resources than your state government.Woody: They can coordinate. Smart criminals go across state lines because even now with the FBI and this act, but back then, especially because law enforcement agencies didn't have the communication resources they do now. If you go across state line, it makes it harder to get help in another jurisdiction.Jim: 100%. Now, during the trial, Willie was up to his old tricks with Cuevas. In the trial where she was going to get justice, he's blowing kisses to her. He actually would draw his finger across his throat while she would look at him. That's how much of a piece of shit this guy was. In the middle of the trial, and this is where it gets very disgusting, now, Willie and Vaccaro were both tried at the same time. All of a sudden, middle of the trial, they both stand up and they say, "We want to go ahead and take a plea." They stand up in court, they take the plea, and the judge says, "What do you plead?" And they say, "Yeah, we're guilty. We just wanted to put y'all through this," looking right at Cuevas, who had to testify in detail about the many rapes she endured at their hands. That's insane.Willie and Vaccaro plead guilty to two counts of kidnapping, one count of conspiracy to kidnapping, and they both received life sentences. Now, although Brewster did live, he was partially paralyzed after the incident.Woody: Horrible.Jim: Holden, you may wonder about Holden. "Well, what about the guy in the trailer, the third guy?" Well, he actually was charged with accessory to federal kidnapping, and he took the coward's way out. He committed suicide in his cell by hanging himself shortly after the trial.Woody: Crazy.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Just death everywhere. Hell of jail for him. Jim: Hell is probably where he's at.Woody: It's just crazy. While on death row in Bloody Angola, Robert Willie pled guilty to yet another murder because he had killed Dennis Hemby. In 1978, Willie and his cousin, Perry Taylor, beat and drowned Dennis Hemby, who was 19 years old, to steal weed Hemby had in his possession. Just winners, right?Jim: Weed.Woody: Yeah, probably a bag of weed. Not like pounds or something. But Dennis Taylor pled guilty to manslaughter in the case and received a 21-year sentence. Willie pled guilty to second-degree murder and received another life sentence. What else? How many life sentences can you do? Willie also confessed to the 1978 murder of Louis Wagner, who was a St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's deputy, and he implicated three other men. Wagner was killed in retaliation for repeatedly arresting one of the four men. Charges were brought against all four but were dropped against all, but Robert Willie after Willie recanted his statement and said the men had nothing to do with the deputy's murder. He pled guilty to second-degree murder in that case and received another life sentence. It is alleged that Willie recanted his story after his father told him he had violated the honor code of convicts regarding being a snitch. Father of the year.Jim: Father of the year. Snitches get stitches.Woody: If all that's not crazy enough, serial killers, Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole confessed to killing Wagner. When they confess, Willie completely recanted his story again saying the only reason he confessed the murder is he assumed he would stay in the St. Tammany Parish jail for a trial which he knew would be easier to escape from than Angola. It's crazy. Willie also claimed to kill two other men, one being a hitchhiker and the other being a brick truck driver. He gave no details on the hitchhiker but said he killed the brick truck driver after robbing him and then disposed of his body in a pond along the interstate in St. Tammany Parish.Jim: Absolutely crazy.Woody: Yeah. Fuck, I lost how many murders--[crosstalk] Jim: Total serial killer.Woody: Yeah, absolutely a serial killer.Jim: Just to back up for a second on something you just mentioned, Woody, and that was the name, Ottis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas. We're not going to go into-- that's a whole another episode. We'll tell y'all about those jokers. But I will tell you they were sexual partners, openly gay serial killers that had confessed to over 250 killings throughout their, I guess, serial killer reign. Just a whole other story with those guys. As a matter of fact, Ottis Toole is if you remember the Adam Walsh case back, I was a young buck back then and that scared me to go play around in a mall because he got beheaded after being kidnapped from, I believe, it was a Sears department store. Of course, his father, John Walsh, became a huge advocate for the milk carton stuff where you see the kids on milk cartons. That was John Walsh that spearheaded a lot of that. Whole another story. I'm getting chills thinking about it because that's important to tell.Woody: Also, America's Most Wanted.Jim: America's Most Wanted. Ottis Toole, to sum that up, is who confessed to that murder, and as a matter of fact, his lover actually confirmed that. There'll be more on that in another episode.If you've seen the movie, Dead Man Walking, like I just talked about, it's based off of a book and that book was written by Sister Helen Prejean. Now, Sister Helen Prejean's book is centered around the facts of her experience as a spiritual advisor for the Angola condemned. It really is an amazing account, y'all. Believe it or not, she's still alive and a really amazing lady. I think anyone that commits to religion as she has, in her mind, everything she's doing is for good. Who am I to argue with that? That being said, the movie is very-- and I mean very loosely based on the reality of Robert Willie. It's Hollywood, y'all. They didn't want to show accurate accounts of Willie's murders because, let's face it, if you had known what I just told you about this guy, you're not going to feel sorry for him. You're not. At the end of the movie, if you didn't know any better, I almost felt sorry for him.Woody: Yeah, that's crazy.Jim: It really is. Now, her work as an advocate against the death penalty, it's known worldwide, and she's 83 years young as of today and resides in the Slidell area, I believe, just an hour from where we're currently recording this episode. So, hey.Woody: Still St. Tammany Parish.Jim: Sister Prejean, if you're listening, Woody and I would love to have you on the show.Woody: We would love to have you on, sister. I respect what she does.Jim: 100%.Woody: Can you imagine-- Actually, if I'm not mistaken, Willie's case was the first one that she actually took on.Jim: Yeah. She was young. Woody: Right. Yeah, it was the first.Jim: You remember exactly right. As a matter of fact, they were pen pals. She was writing to inmates and had never even met a death row inmate before.Woody: And then went over there and called a lot of flak for it. Just think about this gap, Willie. You know the one thing I think they probably got true in the movie is when he tried to make sexual advances at her. He's a fucking animal. Let's go to Robert Willie's execution. Right before Robert Willie's execution, John Willie, who's the dad, said his son deserved to die and that Vaccaro should be executed along with him.Jim: Father of the year.Woody: He said, "If a man did me wrong, I'd have no problem with killing him like I'd kill that chicken out there," he said. "But I could never do anything to hurt a woman, a child or a young person," because you got to have some morals, huh?Jim: [chuckles]Woody: When Faith's parents, Vernon and Elizabeth Harvey, went to John's home and asked him if he believed in capital punishment, he said he was willing to pull the switchhimself. Well, you know what? If he'd been a better daddy, they would have never had to ask that question. Robert Willie's grandfather, a former sheriff, also said his grandson most likely deserved to die. He said, "Her life was precious to her and he took it, and they ought to take his life," Keaton Willie said. Vernon Harvey admitted that he had twice considered killing Willie during the trial.Jim: Good for you, Vernon.Woody: I think everybody that has to sit through their kid's murder trial thinks that too. He said in the courtroom during his second sentencing trial, "The deputy sheriff was standing less than 2ft in front of me with his unstrapped holstered .357 magnum pistol." He said, "I thought about stepping up and grabbing it, but there were other people too close to Willie," said Harvey. On the other occasion, Vernon saw that Willie had federal marshals driving him and he considered ramming the car. He said, "I contemplated ramming the car and trying to push it into lake. But then I figured the federal marshals hadn't done me any wrong." Willie was executed on December 28th, 1984. And I tell y'all the fires in hell burned a little bit brighter that day. He was a sixth man to be executed at Bloody Angola in a 13-month period. He rode the lightning Gruesome Gertie style. He was 26 years old.Jim: Amen. I'll tell you, before you go any further, in the movie, it's lethal injection he gets. Here, he didn't get lethal injection. He rode the light sponge.Woody: [crosstalk] sponge on that shaved head and-- Jim: Put that sponge on there.Woody: [crosstalk] -would say, killed him good. All right. Y'all, Willie asked Sister Helen Prejean to be with him on the day of his execution. He was also visited by his mom and his brothers. Sister Prejean attended the execution at his request, and he winked at her right before they threw the switch. Willie's last meal consisted of fried fish, oysters, shrimp, French fries, and a salad. Prior to his execution, he said to Hathaway's mother and stepfather, Elizabeth and Vernon Harvey, who were there as witnesses y'all for the prosecution, he said, "I hope you get some relief from my death. Killing people is wrong. That's why you put me to death. It makes no difference whether it's citizens, countries, or governments. Killing is wrong."Jim: Coming from someone who would know.Woody: Yeah [crosstalk] killed more people than we even talked about today. But Debbie Cuevas, the teen who endured all those horrible rapes from both Willie and Vaccaro, wrote a book on her experience and stated in the book that Willie never felt remorse. Asking Sister Prejean, did he show any real remorse before he died? To which Sister Prejean responded, "No. And you know, Debbie, I'm not sure he was capable of that."Jim: Good call, Sister Prejean. You're probably right.Woody: That's psychopathic [crosstalk] she was honest. Psychopath to the end.Jim: Yeah, really. Just so many lives affected from this guy. It just sickens me. Debbie Cuevas later married and had a son and daughter. And then, as Debbie Morris, she still struggled to come to terms with her experience. She eventually forgave both Willie and Vaccaro for their crimes against her. And she even wrote a book, y'all. In her book titled Forgiving the Dead Man Walking: Only One Woman Can Tell the Entire Story, she tells of her spiritual journey. She writes that she had decided to forgive Willie for the crimes hecommitted. Now, after her book was published, she began writing to Vaccaro in prison. Through this period, Morris also established a friendship with Sister Prejean.She's a lot more forgiving person than me, I can tell you. Morris opposes capital punishment. She has said in her book that she believed her testimony contributed to Willie being sentenced to death and executed. Now, Michael L. Varnado, the detective in the case of Faith Hathaway, also wrote a book, and it's called Victims of the Dead Man Walking, and it recounts his views of the case.Woody: It's crazy. Back then, or even when the movie came out, books were more widely read than they are now. But these would have come out using the name of the movie, Dead Man Walking, so they could tell their side of the story.Jim: Absolutely. Look, when this movie came out, and I think everybody in that movie won some sort of award, it was up for an Academy Award for best movie at that time. Good for these victims to take advantage of that to maybe help their income out and help get their story out. I'm sure some of them, it was about getting the story out, not even [crosstalk] the income.Woody: For me, it'd be like, you Hollywooded it up, let's tell the real story.Jim: Yeah. That's what I love about doing Bloody Angola, is that's what we just gave you. We gave you the real story of who this guy is. I'm sure a lot of you have seen that movie. If you're a true crime fan, I'm sure you watched it. I can tell you, you're probably like me after I finished this research and that was, "Holy crap, this is nothing like I thought. I thought this guy may have made one mistake in his entire--" oh, no, this guy was a full-blown piece of fucked.Woody: Serial killer, man. He just killed so many people, destroyed so many lives. That's the ones that we know about. Anyway, we want to thank y'all for listening to this episode. Our Patreon members, you're getting more episodes than probably any other podcast in the history of the world gives. We hope you're enjoying them. Y'all, if you want to be a Patreon member, you can go to--Jim: You can go to Patreon. Just type in "Bloody Angola Podcast," it'll pull up. Or you can go to the Facebook page, we've got our little link tree there. You click on that and that's got our links, not only to our Patreon, but all of our--Woody: Everything.Jim: Everything we pretty much have now. We have different levels on Patreon. It'severything from our Chase Team, to our CERT Team, to our Tie Down Team.Woody: To the Warden.Jim: To the Warden Team. As it goes up, you get more and more perks. Please go to the Chase Team-- or the Patreon team site and you can see what those different membership levels will get you. But it's really the only way we can continue to do the show, is through our Patreon team.Woody: We even have the option and you get the discount, if you sign up for a year at a time. We want to thank everybody that's done that. That's growing, because it's growing and we're getting more Patreon members, we're able to lock up more of these bonus episodes. This one not being one of them, obviously, but you're getting way more than I ever heard of in podcasting. So, go check it out. Hey, you can't be a Patreon member, we get it. We loveyou anyway. Please, if you feel so inclined, go leave us a review, like us, remember, wherever you listen to the podcast, hit subscribe. That way, anytime we drop an episode, you'll get the notification and it'll be there waiting so you never miss another episode of Bloody-Jim: -Angola. We want to shout out real quick. Each episode we're going to take a different team and we're going to kind of shout out those members. Today, we want to shout out our CERT Team members.Woody: Right, straight up. Y'all, CERT Team is our affectionate name for-- we're trying to keep it all in the prison names. CERT Team is basically the SWAT team. They're the ones who train to respond for everything from cell extractions to hostage situations to whatever, special kind of security.Jim: We do want to mention, the CERT perks include ad-free episodes. You get early access to those episodes, obviously, and you also get access to our companion episodes. This would be considered a regular episode of Bloody Angola.Woody: Commercial free.Jim: You get commercial free and all that as a CERT Team member. But you also get those companion episodes that are in our sally port that we do all kinds of stuff with. We've got about 20 different companions that we put out. $15 a month, y'all. You get all those perks with the CERT Team.Woody: And it's love-- Like Jim said, you can check out all the different perks you get, but for $15 a month, if you like Bloody Angola, you're going to love being a CERT Team member. The first one, I want to thank is Ms. Tisha Dubrock. Tisha, we really appreciate you being a CERT Team member. Thank you.Jim: And we also want to thank Ms. Tasha Brown. Thank you so much for joining the CERT Team and supporting us.Woody: And Tabitha Amall, that's a good, strong Cajun name. Thank you, Tabitha. We really do appreciate you.Jim: The next one I want to thank, and I'm going to pronounce it both ways, it's either Renee or Rena. Make a comment or something below this and correct me. I'm not even going to go-- it's one of those two. Last name, Walton.Woody: I'm going to go with Renee.Jim: There you go. Woody is going with Renee. Ms. Walton, we appreciate you so much forsupporting us.Woody: Thank you. And Payton Myers. Payton, thank you. We appreciate you. Couldn't do without you. Thank you.Jim: All right. Mamu Wama.Woody: I'm going to say Mimu.Jim: All right. So, you comment too below that, you can tell us which one is right. Woody: You let us know who is right.Jim: But thank you.Woody: Thank you so much. And Michelle Carter. Thank you, sweetie. We really appreciateyou backing us and supporting us.Jim: Woody gets all the easy names. [chuckles] All right. I'm going to go with Leah? Woody: I'm going with Leah too.Jim: Fuselait.Woody: Fuselait. I'm going with that too.Jim: Thank you so much. Let us know if we got it right.Woody: Let us know if we got it right, Leah, but thank you for your support. He's right because I got another easy one. Catherine Ford. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We really do appreciate your support.Jim: This next one, we know. She's an OG from way back on everything we do. And that's Ms. Jennifer Lamley.Woody: Jennifer Jerram Lamley. Sweetie, you know we love you and thank you for always supporting us. We really do appreciate it. Shoutout to CERT Team members. We appreciate, y'all. Thank you.Jim: Thank you so much. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years into making.Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.Jim: Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production, in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe DeRouen in Studio 433, with vocals by Thomas Cain. Created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Wood Overton.[Bloody Angola theme]Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Woody Overton and Jim Chapman open up season 3 of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman give you a ton of insight into Louisiana State penitentiary at Angola by reading you the actual diary of the founder of the "Angolite" magazine and editor Old Wooden Ears" from the 1930's!#Louisianastatepenitentiary #AngolaPrison #Podcast #Applepodcast #spotifyTranscript of episode2023 Jim: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: First of all, Woody Overton, it's Season 3.Woody: Yes, love, right? [chuckles]Woody: I can't believe that. Thank you everyone for liking us and sharing us and helping us grow. It's been amazing. Chase Team members and now all our higher levels of Patreon.Jim: Warden.Woody: Warden and C.E.R.T. Team. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. But yeah, Season 3, it's amazing. We've sold out two live shows now. Y'all's Response has been phenomenal. We appreciate you. You're about to start getting Bloody Angola three days a week.Jim: And as is our tradition, Woody Overton, we always start with a classic story from Angola.Woody: This is a classic story. Not only about the person it's about, but we are going to bring it to you from what should be a story in its own.Jim: Yes.Woody: The Angolite.Jim: The start of the Angolite, which for those of you that are not familiar, that's a magazine that is released by the prison for inmates to read.Woody: Not only inmates. I had a subscription to it back in 1992 or 1993 and they used to mail it to my house.Jim: All we're doing is telling people how old we are. Woody: [chuckles] Okay, sure. Yeah.Jim: [crosstalk] -Pony Express back then. [laughs]Woody: Yeah, right. That was definitely snail mail. It always fascinates the shit out of me what the criminal mind does. This is after I worked in the prison system too. But it's a phenomenal award-winning magazine.Jim: It really is. The guy who started that magazine is who we're going to really be talking about today. The interesting deal with this gentleman is that he was the original editor and the guy who started the Angolite. But not only did he do that, he also, in addition, kept probably one of the best diaries of Angola. As a matter of fact, I'm going to go ahead and say the best diary of Angola you would ever come across. And he had a nickname. I'm going to tell you about that nickname first. They called him Old Wooden Ears.Woody: Wooden Ears.Jim: The reason they called this gentleman that is he was beat by a correctional officer at some point during his early years in Angola and actually went deaf in one ear. So, he was known by the prisoners as Old Wooden Ears. We're going to tell you about the diaries of William Sadler, and we're going to name this episode Old Wooden Ears.Woody: Wooden Ears.Jim: The interesting thing with this episode is that we're going to actually read you the diary because we can't do this justice without actually reading you the entry. We're just going to take these back and forth. Trust me, this is interesting, y'all. This is the real diary.Woody: Think about it. You don't have a whole lot to do in prison. At least this guy was keeping himself busy by keeping a diary.Jim: And didn't hold back.Woody: Right. He told the truth according to him.Jim: Mm-hmm. That's right. We're going to start with January 1st, 1936. This was New Year's Day on Angola, and it was celebrated by all hands out in the field with the exception of Camp E, most of whom are assigned to the refinery. Sugarcane cutting going on full blast with no Sundays or holidays off until grinding ends, which will be about the middle of the month. Red Hats out in the cane shed.Woody: Red Hats.Jim: If you listen to our Red Hats episode, you'll find out a little bit more about them. But he'salready mentioning the Red Hat.Woody: Yeah. On January 3rd, 1936, he writes, "There was hail on the Gola this day. The refinery has been making 100% white sugar and shipping it to the brokers in Chicago under the Pelican Refinery, Baton Rouge label, so consumers wouldn't get onto the fact that it was made by convict labor. The last month, some of those dudes loading freight cars at Camp B siphoned off sugar out of several sacks and filled holes with striped convict clothes. When the sacks hit Chicago in the retail market and a howl went up, this was heard way down here. The result? About 16 men caught the bat, anywhere from 30 to 45 lashes each. But those who were beaten weren't the guilty ones, strange to say. It seems their clothing had been stolen and shoved into the sacks. And since the dudes bore their laundry numbers, it made them automatically guilty. The actual perpetrators of the switch got off scot-free, which is often the case on this Angola."Jim: How about that?Woody: Right. Y'all, go back and listen to some of our other episodes. The bat was basically a big leather strap. That's what they're referring to. Now, that's pretty smart. Let me tell youthis real quick. When I was in basic training in the army, they had a guy on a cot across from me that snored every night, and I wouldn't get any sleep anyway, I've been on a light sleeper. So, before the lights went out, you had to line your shoes underneath the bunk, I stole one of his boots. When the lights went out, he started snoring, I reared back and I threw that boot, I hit him in his head as hard as I could. He jumped up and he was like, "You motherfuckers. I'm going to get you. I got your boot. When I turn on the lights in the morning, I'm going to find out who it is." But guess what? It was his. These prisoners were smart like that. They stole somebody else's clothes and other inmates' clothes and numbers and plugged the holes. They were hoping to get the uprising, which they got. But unfortunately, for the victims that they stole from, well, they got the bat.Jim: They got the bat. 30 to 45 lashes, y'all. You're starting to see the brutality with Angola and why they called it Bloody Angola. Another thing that I found interesting about that entry was the fact that they would switch the labels. The reason they would do that, back in the 30s, people weren't down with convict labor like that.Woody: They still do it. When I worked at DCI, they had the crawfish plant, and they ran 24 hours a day. They brought in two 18-wheeler loads of crawfish a day and they boiled them. The inmates had to peel 16 pounds of tail meat and they got to weigh it in their 12-hour shift. If they didn't peel the 16 pounds, they went to the hole. But guess what? They packaged it under Louisiana Crawfish Company and sold it. That's the shit you buy in the grocery store when you buy Louisiana Crawfish-- It used to be when you buy Louisiana Crawfish tails.Jim: There it goes. The next time you buy, you think about that.Woody: [crosstalk] -crawfish season, they made them cut onions and they sold the cut-uponions like the Holy Trinity. But they damn sure didn't say it was done by prisoners.Jim: That's right. We continue on. And you're seeing that brutality take place. "January 5th, 1936. Narrowly missed the bat myself this day. Captain JH Row-" that's a good cager name, "-of Camp A missed credit for a carload of cane which had been sent to the mill. There's always been more confusion out in the yard when the cane cars are brought in by railroad crews at night. In this case, the weight ticket evidently became lost, not by fault, but close shave nevertheless."Woody: Wow, close shave-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah. And he narrowly missed that bat.Woody: I can't imagine there were a lot of lights and shit on the trains, they were rolling. I think about sugarcane, y'all, that's what he's talking about. Look, there's a certain time you got to cut it and get it out and get it to the mill to get it pressed. I know they were working sun up to sun down.Jim: Oh, yeah. And sugarcane was a huge commodity. Woody: Still is.Jim: It still is, yes.Woody: All right, y'all. So, the next one, his journal entry is on January 9th, 1936. He says, "It was cold and pouring down rain today. No slickers, no boots, no gloves. All camps that work in the fields, negro women cutting cane from on headland, white men from Camp G working toward them. John Henry on the turn row. Dinner served out in the open. Rain so hard, the whippoorwill peas bounce off your plate faster than you can spoon down. Menutoday, chicken, chopped grits, stove pipe gravy, soybean bread, and coffee made from horse beans for breakfast."Jim: I'm hungry already. [laughs] Woody: Right? I can't imagine. Jim: Out in the rain, y'all.Woody: Hey, it's raining so hard, you try to eat your shit before it gets any soggier, but the fat drops are hitting your plate so hard that your peas are bouncing off the plate? That's crazy. Hey, they didn't give a shit. They were getting that sugar cut.Jim: That's right. "14th January, 1936. The whistle blew today for the end of the 1935-36 grinding season. Tonnage figures showed one of the biggest years in Angola history, but no sugar on the table. They found over nine tons which had been hidden in various places around the refinery for use during the coming year by the refinery crew. The hideouts were tipped off by the Black Cat, who as a convict had helped plan it. Two weeks ago, he was paroled to the state for work in the refinery, so his first duty was to put the finger on the hidden sugar."Woody: Wow. Gave it up. Jim: Gave it up.Woody: You know that went on, man. Sugar is a commodity. Even the free people that worked in the mill, I guarantee the inmates kept some too make that homemade brew. All right, y'all, so we're going to January 20, 1936, again from Wooden Ears' diary. He says, "Camps all at work in the field hoeing stubbles. Rainy and wet today. Wet clothes worn into the camp dormitories, which are heated only by a wood-burning stove made out of a discarded 50-gallon oil drum. Clothes are wet when you put them on next morning. This kind of work cut in the weather bring a siege of pneumonia in the free world. The old saying on the Gola is, "You can't kill a convey that easy.'"Jim: You can't. [laughs]Woody: First of all, when we talk about the stubble, after you cut the sugarcane, you got basically the stumps of the roots, and they had to clear that so they could plant the next year's crop.Jim: Amazing.Woody: And wet ass clothes. I guess they slept naked.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I wonder if he got the-- I guess the big bull near the door and got to put his clothes closest to the wood. You know what I'm saying?Jim: Yeah. Shot caller. Woody: Yeah. The shot caller.Jim: "February 1st, 1936. Those alert characters at Camp B have rigged up a new wrinkle to beat the daily shakedown at the gate."Woody: Uh-oh.Jim: Uh-oh. "Where every bit of garden produce was confiscated. It often became a problem to smuggle a contraband article into the yard and into the dining room. So, the dudes trained one of the various mongrel dogs to fetch and carry. Now, the garlic and even pokes of sugar outside the fence. The pooch scrambles underneath the wire and the guards' noses and brings it into the plant." [chuckles]Woody: 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, I'm going to figure out how to get everyone. But on my birthday on February 5th, 1936, Wooden Ears writes, "it was cold and raw this morning. Camp G is working over on Monkey Island, getting in the spinach and radish crops off the overflow land before the rise of Mississippi gets them. It is said the long line must wade the bayou waist deep, going to and coming from the camp. Then, working the water over a foot deep to harvest the crop. And this in winter."Jim: Crazy.Woody: It's crazy. Y'all know Monkey Island is located where Louisiana and Mississippi meet at the rear of the prison and was a notoriously miserable place to work. An area border in Mississippi river, it remained flooded and marshy most of the year and was infested with mosquitoes and snakes.Jim: Yeah, and that's a big problem with Angola that we're going to talk about in the future is the flooding. They've had to evacuate prisoners from Angola many times because the Mississippi river water was up. We're going to move on to February 8th, 1936. "Oscar Loki, the long line water boy, finished up this eight years day for day yesterday. A Yankee lad, he came out on Angola when he was 18. He made and sold out in the field and from his profits over the eight years saved a total of $74."Woody: Whoa.Jim: Hey, that's probably a lot of money to an inmate. "His best friend, Frenchie LeBlanc, was the last to tell him goodbye yesterday at the receiving center where he was dressed out. Oscar showed officials his role of hard-earned money, flipped off the rubber band under which was a dollar bill, and found the rest of the role was merely coffee coupons." Basically, this officer took all the money. "No one knows whether LeBlanc stole the money, but Loki said LeBlanc was the only one who knew where he kept it hidden." correction, LeBlanc, his friend, stole the money, put coffee coupons in there with a dollar on top of.Woody: Thought he's rolling out with $74-- [crosstalk] Jim: [laughs] But he's got plenty of free coffee, apparently.Woody: Crazy. "On February 9th, 1936, Bill Brazil, the guard at the finery, died today. He had only a few months to go to through a life sentence. A piece of metal, lead, the size of a fist had fallen from one of the beams and it struck Brazil square on the top of his head. Two characters who were working painting the steel structure three stories above Brazil were questioned to no avail. It is not clear how the lead, which had no business in the refinery anyway, happened to fall on Brazil like a bomb."Y'all, Angola death records listed no one named Brazil dying in 1930s, but a William B. Brazil, inmate number 20030, is listed as dying at Camp B where the sugar refinery was located on April 20th, 1935. His cause of death was listed as broken neck caused by fall from being in the top of refinery. Records have also shown that suspicious deaths were oftenlisted as accidents. He is buried at the original Point Lookout Road where they bury inmates. That's crazy.Jim: Yeah, it really is.Woody: You don't want to say it's an inmate-on-inmate murder. The pen is mightier than thesword, right?Jim: That's right.Woody: Whatever. He was there, I believe old Wooden Ears saw the lead.Jim: Y'all, Old Wooden Ears tells the truth. This is his personal diary. He didn't know that anyone was ever going to see this.Woody: He didn't know y'all were going to be listening to that.Jim: Guaranteed he didn't know that, Woody Overton.Woody: Almost 100 years later.Jim: Yeah, so find that interesting too, because we talked about in old episodes how records back in those days were altered or not kept.Woody: I even wonder, you've mentioned broken backs and shit. I'm like, "Oh, yeah. You break your back," you're not jumping out of a window.Jim: Yeah, get that bat.Woody: That's right.Jim: "February 12th, 1936. Sweet potato stew for dinner and supper these days. Usually, there's a piece of meat somewhere in the pan, but you have to be mighty quick with your fingers to find it. Thank goodness they have stopped making bread with soybean flour, but they are still serving boiled soybeans on the table." Now, mills were served to prisoners in those days with typically the cheapest ingredients you could possibly find in order to save money. When the food items of any real quality appeared, it was often skimmed or outright stolen from prisoners or employees looking to make a little money.Woody: Again, the soybeans shit is shit they grew. So, we're going to February 15th, 1936. "Vernon Hancock is a saddler, a wiser man at Camp E today. Vernon, who works in the Ice House, was a big shot gambler. He owned all the poker tables. So, two weisenheimers sent out and brought two decks of reader cards, marked, of course. They finagled Vernon into buying into the decks at a bargain price, seals unbroken. Then proceeded to sit into Vernon's game. This all began three weeks ago. Today, Vernon is broke and the pair has all his dough. The two friends who tipped the switch off to Vernon after it happened, he replied, 'Well, them cards wasn't marked. I broke the seals on the new decks myself.' Barely a fool and his money."Jim: [laughs] I mean, they're running a casino in Angola.Woody: Right. Gambling is a huge thing in prison, but it says no-- the entries, along with the entry in the opposite column are just more glaring examples of how good fortune, whether in saving for the future or perceived luck at the gambling table, often created problems for everyone involved.Jim: No doubt about it. Old Wooden Ears going to tell the truth, like we said. Woody: He got no reason to lie. He's writing for himself, not anybody else.Jim: That's right. Now, February 18th, 1936. "Well, these jailhouse swindles never cease. Mitchell Lafleur-", if you notice, a lot of these names are Cajun names, y'all, "-no-read-and-write cell room guard at Camp E also has been taken to the cleaners, financially speaking. Seems a dude had a catalog with some pictures. He induced Mitchell to pick out a dame who claimed to have $50,000 and was looking for a husband. The dude wrote in the letter for Mitchell. Of course, when the replies came, the dude read them to the guard. The love interests were hot. Finally, the dame said she would come see Mitchell and marry him. Only her $50,000 was tied up in a legal snarl. And as soon as they were married, she would sign over half to him. But right now, she said would Mitchell sent her $100 for the train fare. This is crazy. "He did." [chuckles] Now, this is a guard, y'all. He gave it to the dude to send for him, and that's the last he's heard or ever will hear. Even back in 1936, you had these hustlers, man, and they were, "Send me $100." Nowadays it's through email, back then, it was through a regular mail.Woody: The calls from Jamaica, saying, "Oh, you won a million dollars. Send us $10,000 for legal fees."Jim: Went on in 1936.Woody: It only takes 1 out of 100 if you do it. If you're successful 1 out of 100, then you'resuccessful. Jim: Yeah.Woody: All right. On February 21st, 1936, Wooden Ears writes, "Getting so they put the bat in action three times a day nowadays. During breakfast, after dinner, and after supper. Foreman calls out the unlucky ones and tells the captain they are lazy or insubordinate, and the poor devils usually catch from 20 to 30 lashes apiece. One yesterday had his third beating in 10 days. How long, O Lord?" I mean, he's just--[crosstalk]Jim: Third beating in 10 days.Woody: Probably, the correctional officers were-- to the inmates who are pushing the lines, what they call them the inmate guards, were like, "Hey, we're going to make an example out of somebody." Now, they're doing it three times a day. It helps keep the other people in line.Jim: I wonder if it was the same guard that lost that $100, Woody Overton, [chuckles] taking it out on people. February 26th, 1936. "Little Doc Goodman at Camp E was strung up naked by his wrist to a beam in the ceilings in the camp lobby today and whipped with at least 50 lashes. Those who had listened said they lost count. Doc has been accused of laziness and insubordination many times in the past. His body is a mass of scar tissue from burns suffered outside. So, he seems to be immune to ordinary punishment. So, the idea of stringing him up naked was devised. He's supposed to hang there 72 hours without food or water."Woody: Wow. Crazy.Jim: Y'all, wrap your mind around that. When we tell you Bloody Angola back in the day wasn't no joke, it wasn't a joke. Now, the lengths that the prison or guard would go through to punish people apparently knew no bounds. Despite the dangers of whipping someone asmuch as they whipped Goodman, hanging him by his wrist for 72 hours was infinitely more dangerous. Such punishments, with a body position aching to crucifixion, could easily cause suffocation by the pressure exerted on the lungs and the diaphragm by three days of such torture.Woody: Not only that, three days, that's the maximum you can go without the water, right? Jim: We can never confirm or deny that that existed, but Old Wooden Ears says it did.Woody: Yeah. [crosstalk] -again, it's all, I would say, to control the population. This guy being a repeat offender, insubordination, etc., like, "We'll show you." But anyway, let's go to February 28th, 1936. Wooden Ears writes, "Safe burglars intent on plying their trade even on Angola. Last night, burrowed through the tag plant wall into the general warehouse and broke into the safe there. They say over $1,000 is missing. Or is this a red herring to cover a cash shortage? How could those guys get out of the cell room building last night to do their burglarizing?"Jim: That's freaking crazy. [laughs]Woody: Well, he had a good point.Jim: He had a good point [crosstalk] guard.Woody: [crosstalk] -missing, and you've got to blame it on a convict, right? Jim: Yeah. $1,000. And they tried to say they burglarize-- [crosstalk] Woody: [crosstalk] -accused of $1,000 in '36, that's like $100,000 now.Jim: Okay, so we move on to the next. March 1st, 1936. "Heard today Angola was going to have a doctor. Not like the one present joker who comes up from Baton Rouge once a week, but a full-time medical man. Maybe now they will start examining and classifying fresh fish so they won't be dying out in the fields of such things as exposure and exhaustion. Is this progress?" That's a good point that Old Wooden Ears brings up, Woody. That is when you're new to Angola, they put you out in the fields and bodies have to acclimate. So, these fresh fish, as he calls them, they go out in that field and they're not used to the sun 12-15 hours a day.Woody: The episode we did with Kelly Jennings talked to one guy whose first job he ever had in his entire.Jim: His entire life. Woody: Yeah. Jim: That's crazy.Woody: Them bringing a doctor in wasn't because they gave a damn about the convicts. They just wanted to keep them alive. They cared about keeping them alive so they can keep them working.Jim: That's right.Woody: All right, let's go to March 3rd, 1936. He writes, "Pursuant to an edict from the pen of the warden, there are neither dogs nor cats on Angola today. His letter to all captains said,'Dogs and cats are taking the place. I want them gotten rid of.' So, there was a general roundup and many of pet went to the river via croaker sack. They tipped me off that if farm superintendent, GAG, ever comes in to weigh on my scales, to be sure to tell him 20 to 30 pounds less than its actual weight. He's very myopic. When I wanted to know why, they said, If you don't, he'll beat the hell out of you with his stick."' Vanity. All these are interesting. Shit, this guy was very articulate for a convict in 1936.Jim: April 27th, 1936. "The count at Camp E came up one man short last night." Woody: Uh-oh. [crosstalk]Jim: "Dewey Brian, ice plant worker, was missing. He was found in the cold storage room dead drunk. The discovery touched off a smelling of breaths of having--"[laughter]Jim: This is so crazy. "The discovery touched off a smelling of breaths of having taken a covet nip of the local joy juice and everyone was pulled out and whipped." So, basically, if they had alcohol on their breath, they pulled them out and whipped them with the bat. "Brian was given 85 lashes for being dead drunk. Felt no pain." [laughs] "This morning, they had to cut him loose from his mattress where the blood on his back had dried and stuck into it. He is not the first, nor will he be the last."Woody: Wow. Crazy. Jim: I mean, wow, y'all.Woody: Yeah. [unintelligible 00:28:54] know some bad shit, but it ain't worth 80 licks, I can tell you that.Jim: Stuck to the mattress.Woody: Yeah, that's going to suck. And your whole back with scab. All right, on April 28th, 1936, he writes, "Despite a workday, which now begins at 05:15 AM and ends at 6:30 at night, the menu remains the same. For breakfast, grits, gravy and bread."Jim: "29th April 1936, Gerald Red Kramer, who was shot four times by a convict guard in the okra patch near E, got a visit from his mother today." [crosstalk] "Kramer's bed is his coffin because he is expected to die. His mother talked to him across the coffin." And there's a note underneath, it says, "Camps where a prisoner died often pooled money to purchase materials for his coffin. Generally, the camp store kicked in also."Woody: It's crazy. April 30th, 1936. "Pollywog Jones- Jim: Oh.Woody: -who was shot in the arm and leg in the okra patch at the same time as Gerald Kramer has gone to work. The foreman drove him out of the Red Hat cells this morning with a stick."[laughter]Woody: He [unintelligible [00:30:18] beat him on.Jim: Yeah, Pollywog going to learn his lesson eventually.Woody: Pollywog got the stick.Jim: I love this. "May 1st, 1936. A buyer of potatoes complained today his tubers were arriving skinned up. He was taken into the field where a long line of negroes were harvesting potatoes on their hands and knees. The buyer inspected box after box and the negro who had been skinning his potatoes was whipped. Several offenders caught the bat, they say."Woody: Crazy.Jim: Y'all, this is life back then in '36 in Angola.Woody: Day in and day out. And he goes to May 2nd, 1936, "John Francis Carney died last week in the Camp E hospital. He had complained for weeks of stomach ulcers. Pleaded for milk since he could not digest his regular fare. Dr. Gwynn, the new LSP physician, had this to say about Carney in his report to the warden. 'I find nothing wrong with this man. He is faking and fully able to do fieldwork.' The autopsy showed the cause of Carney's death, stomach ulcers and peritonitis." That's crazy. There's a note underneath says, "Angola death records listed James Francis Carney's death as August 22, 1938. The official cause recorded was peptic ulcer, chronic malignant degradation, carcinoma stomach, etc. LSP records indicate he was buried at the prison. So, he resides at one of the graves with the illegible markers or perhaps in the communal grave where the remains from the various cemeteries located near defuncts camps were consolidated." Crazy.Jim: "May 3rd, 1936. The orders gone out to all foreman in the field that they must carry a fever thermometer. When an inmate gets overheated, the foreman is supposed to take his temperature and give him a blow in the shade--" [laughs] "But most of these foremen can neither read or write. How will they take a temperature and read a thermometer?" That's a good point, Old Wooden Ears.Woody: [unintelligible [00:32:35] what a blow in the shade means.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I'm assuming, y'all, that it meant a rest.Jim: I assume as well. But he had some interesting [unintelligible 00:32:45] for that one.Woody: May 4th, 1936, he writes, "Skinned-up potatoes brought an application of the bat to harvesters at Camp C today. 15 were given from 20 to 25 lashes each. 'Can't harvest a crop without leather,' the general manager says." I guess he means, you can't push the line without a beating.Jim: That's right. "May 5th, 1936. The new issue of coffee from the warehouse today is half horse beans, parched and half peaberry." But that's good because it has been all horse beans before. There's a letter underneath that says, "Creative efforts were constantly made to enhance the poor quality of coffee available to the inmates. Any manner of items such as chicory or walnuts would be added to create a more palatable brew. But it rarely worked."Woody: Shit. For sure, they thought it was a big thing in prison. All right. We go into May 6th, 1936, he writes, "Sundays will be worked until the potato crop is harvested according to the order issued to all camps today."Jim: Now, that's the Lord's Day, Woody Overton.Woody: Right. The Lord's Day, but that's also-Jim: Workday.Woody: They didn't want the potatoes rotting in the ground. Then on the next day, on May 7th, 1936, he writes, "Milton Good, New Orleans sex fiend, got a dollar watch from the free world, thinking to make suction with the foreman. He gave it to the man today so he could tell knocking-off time. The man beat him over the head with the watch and chain, breaking the watch because he can't tell time."[laughter]Jim: That is so great. Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: I mean, ruined a perfectly good watch. Now, "May 8th, 1936. George Buckley was awarded the line pusher to job today for his diligence in keeping the man informed on who was leaving potatoes on his row unpicked." So, he's a rat, basically, and got him a job based on telling on his boys. And then May 9th, he continues, and he says, "Mosquitoes in the cell room are making the night a veritable hell at Camp E. No screens on the windows. Oil lamps after 8:30 at night. Shower bath is a pipe 6 feet long with holes punched in it."Woody: Wow.Jim: Yeah. That's just a good look into their everyday life.Woody: Mosquitoes on Angola are more like sabretooth rock breakers [crosstalk] fuckers down there on the river. On May 10th, the next day, 1936, he writes, "Shipments of potatoes to date total 253 carloads. All have gone to buyers in Chicago. Coals are being served on the lines tables at camps. It is said the tomato harvest will start about two weeks earlier this year."Jim: That was obviously a big deal for them were-- crops. That was their life--[crosstalk] Woody: [crosstalk] -everything going in Chicago. There's no gangsters in Chicago, right?Jim: [chuckles] Nah. That's it. "May 11th, 1936. I have been transferred to Camp B for the duration of the shipping season so that my job as a clerk for the packing shed will be handier. At B are about 150 teenagers who all should be either in school or at home with their mothers." Then, he continues on the 12th of May, he says, "Called camp B today over the phone and asked him for two refrigerator cars to be sent via the prison railroad. Henry von Schumer, who answered the phone, told me a fresh fish had grabbed the man's hickory stick and broken after the man struck him with it. The poor devil didn't know he had a session with the back coming when he got back to the camp. But it was poetic justice and I said, 'I'd have given $10 to see the melee.' Carried to Camp E this night where Henry, the butcher boy of New Orleans, and I painted signs until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning for Governor Elect Leche's Inaugural Ball which is to be held May 14th in Baton Rouge."Woody: Wow. That's just crazy unreal.Jim: And you can see, they used them for all kinds of things.Woody: First, they hit them with the stick, like FU, took a stick from them and broke it. And now he's going to get away with it. That's the entertainment other than me saying you that shit was coming.Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: And then writing signs for the governor? That's not illegal. Jim: [laughs]Woody: He writes the next day, May 13th, 1936, "After 3 hours sleep, I awoke with the rest of the camp. Was taken into custody to the camp kitchen where Old Tangle Eye, the captain, was waiting for me. He asked if I had ever been whipped yet. When I told him I hadn't, he told me to remove my clothes, for I was about to catch a dose of red heffer for wisecracking over the phone the day before. The captain then called in four men to hold my arms and legs, spreadeagling me so as I couldn't move. The first blow was liquid fire. It was as though I had been seared with a white, heated iron poker. I yelled and begged for mercy because if I hadn't, he would have beaten me until he could no longer wield the bat. Those trying to eat breakfast, as this was going on, told me later I caught 35 lashes. My back and up and down my thighs are all bloody where the skin has broken. I can't lie down. May God curse me if I ever forget this day, May the 13th." Note: Old Tangle Eye was Captain J. L. Carmichael, one of the more prolific applicators of flogging."Jim: Holy crap.Woody: [crosstalk] -with his first bat.Jim: Yeah. 35 lashes.Woody: You get lashed like that, I imagine you shit yourself, you piss yourself, if you don't throw up, everything from the pain. Can you imagine?Jim: They make you strip. They have you take it all off. Woody: They don't want to rip up prison clothes.Jim: Yeah, that's a good point.Woody: [crosstalk] -state property.[laughter]Jim: It is indeed. "May 14th, 1936. Back at work at the packing shed today despite my sore back, which keeps me from sleeping. A grapevine kike today tells me that Henry von Schumer received 25 lashes for telling me the incident of the stick and the man over the phone." They beat him just for talking about it. "The charge was for broadcasting camp business over the phone."Woody: What?Jim: Dang. I don't remember seeing that in the rulebook.[laughter]Woody: There are probably not the operators there anymore listening either, right?Jim: Yeah.Woody: May 15th, 1936. He writes, "Old timers at work at the packing shed after looking at my back, tell me I got only a dusting. Where whippings are concerned, 35, it is said, is light. God Almighty, what is heavy?"Jim: [laughs] This is nuts.Woody: Next day, May 16th, 1936, he writes, "The captain of Camp B told me today he needs a good office man. I said, 'I was the best.' He said I'd get better food and private sleeping quarters if I took the job at his camp. But he added a sticker. He said, 'I want you to go over in the yard and find out what the men are plotting and tell me.' I said, 'Captain, any man who tells you about someone else will tell someone else about you.' I didn't get the job."[laughter]Woody: Surprising he didn't get another bat.Jim: I'm telling you. Old Wooden Ears, turning down the job. Woody: Turning down the job.Jim: "May 17th, 1936. My back and thighs are blue, black and still swollen. Well-wishers have given salve to keep my clothes from sticking to me. May the good Lord let me meet the man who beat me somewhere in the free world."Woody: Yeah, right.Jim: Look, he's praying for vengeance on that one.Woody: He's still in the pain.Jim: And all joking aside, y'all, I mean, beating them so bad that the clothes were sticking--[crosstalk]Woody: Yeah. Your body can never fully heal because it's trying to scab over, your clothes are sticking to you, you have to rip that off and it makes it fresh every day.Jim: [sighs] Jesus.Woody: Crazy. May 17th, 1936, he writes, "Called back to the warehouse at Camp E today to check the LSP cattle inventory. This is a yearly affair. At the slaughter pins where the count was made, the tally came up 245 heads short. The cattle foreman, a free man, explained, 'The rest of them steers is up in the hills. Can't get them today.' They say the shorts has been stolen and sold to farmers over the Mississippi line." Now, you know this shit won't--[crosstalk]Jim: Likely story.Woody: I heard stories in 1990s about one calf went to the state, one calf dropped, went somewhere else. I'm not saying any names, I'm going to get [Jim laughs] [crosstalk] about it. I bet you, 235 heads? In the Tunica Hills? [unintelligible [00:42:35] -cows ain't in the Tunica Hills.Jim: Nope. They're in somebody's belly. Woody: Right.Jim: May 18th, 1936, "Preacher Doc Careway of Shreveport, a recent arrival, has laid his bible down today in the long line at Camp B. He raised his arms to the skies and discovered his belief in divinity. Said Doc, 'There can't be a god who would allow a place like Angola to exist.'"Woody: May 19th, 1936, he writes, "The potato harvest is over for this year. More than 300 cars have been shipped at an average price of $286 per car. No account has been made of the cost in blood from Angola's 300 slaves, however. I have been transferred back to Camp E to work in the general warehouse this date." There you go. The next day, he writes on May 20th, he says, "Machinery at the Pelican Cannery here is being readied for the tomato harvest. The plant will be under the supervision of Captain JNW who is head man at the woman's camp. The canned products will be labeled Pelican Cannery, Baton Rouge, and will be sold in the open market, it is said." That's crazy. In the note, it says that, "Captain JNW referred to was captain J. N. Willis. In March 1940, the cannery was the subject of controversy following complaints about the labeling and pricing of the canned goods process there. The cannery was later destroyed by fire in October 1940."Jim: "May 21st, 1936. My back is slowly healing from the beating I received last week-" Man, he started-- [crosstalk] I'm telling you, "-will leave only faint scars, I am told. But the mental scars will never heal. Today, Ray Carroll, Camp E office clerk, told me the record showed only 16 lashes. If Captain Tangle Eye had gotten his head all over the 16 he put on me, it would have killed him." We got to look up Tangle Eye.Woody: I bet there's stories on him, yeah.Jim: "May 26th, 1936. The women are to be worked alongside the Camp E long line in the cannery next week according to informed sources. The LSP policy on tomatoes is to eat what can't be canned, and can all you can't eat."Woody: Informed sources. I love that. This is how he's writing, a convict in 1936. May the 23rd, 1936, writes, "Jack Dorset and Tom Abbottsford, the former having enacted for over a year as physician here and who was responsible for many an ill man being placed in the fields were brought back from furlough violations. Both have been nabbed while passing bad checks in New Orleans and each blame the other. They were soundly whipped and later engaged in an old-fashioned bareknuckle fight. Each continued to blame the other for their arrests. It's laughable because each was only too eager to run the water on the other. Where is that honor among thieves business you hear about? Both also were busted to the field detail."[chuckles]Jim: May 24th, 1936, "Artie "Gold Brick" Joiner-" man, they got some great nicknames, "-who slept adjoining me for 11 months and who shared my tobacco and coffee all during that time was last week turned out convict guard. Today, I inadvertently passed his guard post. He racked down on me with his double-barreled flat back and was all fixed to blow my head off. Our friendship, it seems, has now ended." [laughs]Woody: Oh, my God. Jim: I love that one.Woody: He's talking about convict guards. That's what they did to keep the cost down of securing the prison. Think that, his old--[crosstalk]Jim: Cellmate for a year.Woody: His own bunkie for a year almost, and they gave him a shotgun and he almost blewhis head off.Jim: That's cold blooded of Old Gold Brick to do that.Woody: Old Gold Brick'll have to eat some soggy potatoes or whatever.Jim: I'm telling you. "May 25th, 1936. The warden put on a new sign at the Peckerwood Hill graveyard today." What a great name. "It straddles the entrance way and is a foot high in letters of old English font. It says, 'Through the sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.' But since the sign facing the roadway, the convicts buried behind it can't read it, whose sign does it refer to?" It says underneath, "Note: Peckerwood Hill was a nickname for Point Lookout, the prison cemetery. The first recorded reference to Point Lookout was in 1935 for Jesse Anderson, who was buried on Row 2, Grave 11. His death was caused by cerebral hemorrhage and syphilis."Woody: Oh, shit. We're definitely going to do an episode on Point Lookout. Jim: I can't believe they called it Peckerwood Hill. [laughs]Woody: I'm not sure of this, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't bury blacks and whites together. Maybe they called it Peckerwoods for that, that being a derogatory term for whites. All right. May 26, 1936, writes, "There were several fallouts in the Camp B long line out in the field. Heat stroke. Foreman is supposed to let them blow in the shade [Jim chuckles] if they're [chuckles] overheated. The water boy carries the fever thermometer, but the bulb is broken off the end." It says, "Note: Comments about the lack of attention given to overheated inmates were common, as supervisors seemed to feel that overheating was an excuse for inmates to rest. Despite their excuses, in 1936, at least five inmates died of heat-related causes."Jim: Wow.Woody: Crazy.Jim: Broke the [unintelligible 00:49:08].Woody: Give them that blow in the shade there, boys. Jim: Yeah, give them a blow in a shade.Woody: I want to get me a blow in the shade-- [laughter]Jim: "May 27th, 1936. George Basil Weisenheimer, a lifer, was instructed this morning to sweep off the cannery steps and porch. He did. He also swept everything in the yard and into the porch. When asked who told him to give the yard a sweep, he said, 'God told me to.' They put 30 lashes on him. He was only recently released from an insane asylum and is definitely not right."Woody: Nice. [chuckles]Jim: "May 28th, 1936. Tomatoes are on the table, stewed in water. No seasoning. Meat ration for Camp E's 375 men is 135 pounds of forequarter beef per week." Per week.Woody: Probably, one of those cows from up in the hill.Jim: Yeah. "By the time the cooks and their friends get through with it, the long line gets achunk about as big as a thumb in the stew once weekly, if they're lucky."Woody: Wow. Crazy. Yeah. The inmate guards were probably having t-bones. All right. May 19th, 1936, he writes, "They say the deducts are beginning to fly on Angola. Each employee from Captain down to Foreman must kick in from 10% to 25% of his monthly paycheck. It's either that or quit. They all pay off at the Camp E general warehouse to Nelson Beauregard, the Superintendent. The cash goes in the Governor Leche's campaign kitty, I'm told. No one knows for sure." It says, "Note: It was not unusual for politicians to apply suggestive pressure on employees and even inmates who were often conscripted as evidenced by [unintelligible 00:50:57] until 5/12/36.Jim: "May 30th, 1936. Today, up in Yankeeland, it is Decoration Day and a holiday, but it is just another workday here on the field. By 4:30, we're in for supper, and at 7:15, to bed. And early to rise sure as hell don't make anyone on the Gola half healthy, wealthy, or wise." On the Gola. "May 31st, 1936. Today I saw the corpse of five babies in the doctor's office at Camp E General Hospital. They are preserved in bell jars and alcohol. The talk is they were born to women at Camp D. No one knows for sure."Woody: Wow.Jim: That's crazy. And there's a note underneath. "Rumors persist to this day about children born to women at Camp D. Few records are available. Yet according to a 1951 article in The Times-Picayune, a child was born to a newly incarcerated woman in February of that year."Woody: I bet you some were born after they were incarcerated, the guards having a poke or whoever, right?Jim: Yeah.Woody: Remember in the first episode, it wasn't a crime for the women to be raped in prison. And if they had the baby-- now, this is 1936, a long time after slavery. If they had the baby while they were locked up, it became property of the state as a slave.Jim: That's right. Woody: Fucking crazy.Jim: Y'all, we hope you enjoyed that. That's just a little taste of his diary. What they did was they produced this in the Angolite last year and they had several issues they put out. We just read from a couple of those issues. But I'll tell you what, I enjoyed this episode.Woody: I love the history, I love the insight. This dude is writing this daily, almost daily, the shit he saw, his perspective.Jim: Yeah. I can only imagine-Woody: [crosstalk] -Angola.Jim: -years and years of that book, I'm a reader--Woody: I wish he was alive so we could interview him.Jim: Old Wooden Ears in studio.Woody: Yes, indeed. Well, we told y'all it would always be different. This is another fine example, something that Jim dug up which I think is fire and we hope you enjoyed it.Jim: Yeah. We thank y'all for allowing us to have a Season 3, all of our Patreon members. Of course, if you can't be a Patreon member, we totally get it and we hope you enjoy the episodes. If you are a Patreon member, thank you so very much. We couldn't do it without them.Woody: Absolutely. Y'all, please, if you would be so inclined, go leave us a review on iTunes or wherever. Like and subscribe to Bloody Angola. Check out all our social media. Y'all want something really cool? Now, we have our own Bloody Angola wine.Jim: Yes.Woody: [crosstalk] -$25 a bottle. We'll sign it for you and send it to you. Tell them about it.Jim: That's right. We have a white wine, a red wine, and we have a rosé, I guess is what they call it, wine. If you're one of the people that are going to the live at the Southeastern Livingston Center here in Livingston Parish, we'll have it there for purchase if you're interested in purchasing bottles. Otherwise, just message us on Facebook and we'll give you.Woody: Yeah. And we're going to announce it for the first time today. If you're a Patreon member, you get $5 off a bottle.Jim: Yes.Woody: So, instead of $25, it'd be $20.Jim: There you go. Always trying to give you more perks out there when you're a Patreon member and support what we do here at Bloody Angola.Woody: And y'all check out on our social media, the new tiers levels, that we have for Patreon members, the different benefits that you get underneath that. If you're kind enough to support us by subscribing through Patreon, we'll give back to you as much as we can.Jim: Amen. And we got transcripts available now, which is a big deal. That's something that y'all have really been asking for. Hey, we listen when y'all ask. We do have transcripts available now that we'll be uploading of each of our new episodes going forward. So, you can read along as you listen along.Woody: Yeah, absolutely. And then next week, you'll be getting three Bloody Angolas.Jim: Three Bloody Angolas a week. They're all going to be entertaining and good, and we're looking forward to bringing that to y'all. So, until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: And a podcast 142 years in a making.Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: Peace. [laughter]Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman you are brought back to the 50's as Woody and Jim cover some of the more infamous stories regarding Louisiana State Penitentiary as told through the pages of the Angolite Prison Newspaper.#TheAngolite #1954throughtheinmateseyes #bloodyangolapodcast #convictGET 50% OFF PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!www.Hellofresh.com/BloodyAngola501954 THROUGH AN INMATES EYES: Bloody Angola Podcast TranscriptJim: Hey everyone and welcome back to Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And we got some Angolites.Woody: Right? I love these stories, man. True, true history from the past. Before we get started, we want to say our thoughts and prayers are with all our people in Florida and Georgia that are getting slammed right now, or got slammed yesterday and came ashore as a Category 3.Jim: And continue to get slammed. Woody: And it's just bad. And they said they haven't seen a storm like that in 125 years. So, just prayers for them. I guess you call it Idalia, I-D-A-L-I-A. It's just bad, prayer for them. We know what they're going through.Jim: Yeah, we've been through a few of those ourselves. So, our hearts and prayers and thoughts are with those folks and the road to recovery. You will recover. It'll seem like you won't, but you'll come back. Look, we've done a lot of historical podcasts with relation to the Angolite, the prison weekly paper that Angola has put out for so many years. This is an award-winning paper all over the world.Woody: And actually turned into a magazine because I had a subscription to it back in the 90s. Jim: Absolutely. Some of the stories from back in the day, y'all, you just won't believe until we read them. We've had a lot of people ask for us to do another one. Got a lot of messages. So, we're bringing you another one today because we got our hands on a lot of them from the 50s and 60s. So, we kind of cherry pick what we feel like are the best stories out of those magazines, and we go over those with y'all. And I'll start it off. And this is an Angolite from April 21st, 1956. Woody: Wow.Jim: Yeah. That was a heck of a time in America, and even in Angola, as you're about to hear. Woody: Definitely Bloody Angola, man. Jim: Yes, for sure. And as a matter of fact, we're going to start off with a bloody story at Bloody Angola, and it was a headline. It said, "Two Dead, One Hurt. Tragedy trip hammered a triple blow at Angola last weekend, leaving two inmates dead and another maimed for life." It says one of the two dead suffered fatal injuries in an accident. The second died of a heart attack. Maimed with his right hand amputated at the wrist was a third.Woody: Wow. Jim: The dead Charles D. Clarkson, 24, of Caddo Parish. He had fallen under the wheels of a tractor last Friday. A broken rib punctured his lung. He died enroute to Charity Hospital, New Orleans. Lawrence Virgil Turley, 55, a carpenter, died Sunday afternoon at the General Hospital of a heart attack. Injured only a half hour after he had been assigned to work on the Mammoth Press at the Tag plant, Venice Landry, 20, had his right hand mangled under the giant bolster ram. Woody: Wow. Jim: Which is the thing, y'all, that stamps it. Woody: Slams.Jim: Yeah, slams that steel and stamps those plates. His hand was amputated at General Hospital Saturday. Pretty, pretty wild stuff going on at Angola. And look, these days, they don't give you those reports. Typically, you really got to dig for them.Woody: The General Hospital really wasn't a hospital. That's when the nurse, the angel-- they call her angel, was there, there was no doctor and all that. It's crazy, right? Jim: That's right. Woody: And the language they use in these, y'all, is really comical. Jim: And you've got to remember, this was a different time. So, you'll hear things like colored and whites. Woody: It's their words, not ours. Jim: That's right. Woody: All right, so the next one says, "Two Fail in Brief Freedom. Wallace McDonald and Norman Stroupe are in a tight, locked cells today following a brief bid for liberty Tuesday night. Security officials said the two took off from the transportation department in Downtown Angola-" That's funny. "In Downtown Angola Tuesday about noon. They were recaptured within a six-hour period by local authorities, both formerly bedded down at Camp H2," the report said. Jim: [laughs] Woody: Kind of brief on that. Jim: Yeah. Basically, they turned a jet-- and that's what I really like about these, is they do tell you about the escapes and stuff. I mean, they don't hold back.Woody: Downtown Angola.Jim: Yeah. [chuckles] Well, how about this one? "Cleaver in an attack tried," says, "John Newton, a new prison kitchen worker, was jailed Monday on a charge of felonious assault with a meat cleaver." Yes, sir. "Newton is said to have sliced Albert Johnson upside his head following an argument. Johnson was hospitalized with lacerations." Woody: Jeez Louise.Jim: Yeah. So, Mr. Johnson got a--Woody: Meat cleaver to the head. Jim: You don't attack people with meat cleavers.Woody: Bloody Angola for sure. Jim: That's right. Woody: So crazy. And then this next one, y'all says, "Heavy equipment acts to rush free houses. Using earth from the miles long embankment of the old Louisiana and Arkansas right of way, the LSP Heavy Equipment department-" That's funny. "Under Superintendent Dennis Johnson was last week engaged in an all-out operation to fill a five-acre plot of ground for the construction of 21 new free personnel houses. The plot is located on the B-Line at the foot of the old receiving station hill. It is to be filled to a depth of 36 inches. Johnson says he expects his department will wind up with the earth fill operation within two weeks. Construction houses will then start, he said." It's funny. They're talking about building part of the B-Line, another 21 houses added.Jim: Yeah. So, this is back, y'all, for those that may just be joining us, the B-Line is where all the free people live. Woody: Inside the wire. Jim: Inside the wire. And this was during the construction of that way back in 1956.Woody: And my mama lived there during that time.Jim: And we'll go on to another page of this one. And there's an article, it says, "More crippled birds. A second group of crippled pelicans, each with the wings broke by hail in the recent storm, were sighted last Sunday by deck passengers on the Angola ferry. The birds have roosted on the log a few feet from the shore and near the middle of the ferry landing. Observers said the wings will heal in time and that it is no rescue operation."Woody: That's crazy. Jim: And the reason we included that one is, it's interesting that they try to keep you up to date with what's going on the outside. And the only way they know that is to look out those bars in that wire and actually see it. A little story on pelicans. Who knew hail could injure their wings? Woody: The news of the day, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: All right. This one says, "O, let us spray. An old-fashioned mattress spraying bee was held at Camp E last Monday, under the eagle eye of the unit captain, A. Couvillon. The action was aimed at eliminating any wandering insects who had hoped to make the unit their dwelling place this summer." [laughter] Woody: It's spraying for bedbugs, basically.Jim: Yeah.Woody: That's funny.Jim: And something that you had to do up in Angola for sure. Woody: It had to be really bad for them to do it for the convicts. Jim: That's right. And then, we'll continue on. And there's one that says, "Falls upstairs, breaks his jaw." Woody: Uh-oh.Jim: That's right. "Joseph Tornabene, Camp H-1 juvenile, fell upstairs one day last week and broke his jaw in three places."Woody: I bet that didn't happen. Jim: [laughs] "The adolescent was returning to his bunk after a shower, according to the story told to the hospital. He was taken to Charity Hospital in New Orleans for treatment." So, they're basically trying to say-- Woody: They beat his ass.Jim: [laughs] Broke his jaw--[crosstalk]  Woody: "You better tell them you fell up the stairs, boy."Jim: Yeah, that's it. Woody: That's funny. Jim: Broke his jaw in three places from a slip. That was one that I really thought painted a picture of the times in prison. Woody: Funny. I think that's when they had the convict guards too. All right, so here we go. The title of this is "Pocketed Razor Draws Jail Time." Says, "He told arresting officers he was just going to shave, but they didn't believe him. He is James B. Shivers of the STU, and he was caught with a straight razor. The board assessed a term on bread and duck because they said only blades for a razor are lawful."Jim: [laughs] [crosstalk] Jesus Christ. And when they caught him, he said, "Well, I was just using it to shave." Woody: "Yeah, I was just using it to shave." Jim: "What's wrong with that?" All right, how about this one? "Fresh fish leave sheltered cloister as labor beckons. 34 fish, until recently swimming unfettered in the administration unit tank-" And, y'all, when they refer to fish, they're talking about new prisoners. "-At the General Hospital have been screened, tested, probed, and activated by members of the classifications board at a recent session. Purpose of the session was to ascertain whether the fish can earn his bed and board. A few whose records indicated they were unlikely to run were made trustys on the spot. Others who must wait and further test went on jobs under the gun. [crosstalk] 18 of the fish are today assigned to the Angola Cane Corn and Cotton Company as field laborers."[laughter] Jim: "In the number were those who will live at Camp A, H and H-2. Culinary work attracted three men, a clerkship and garage work for a third and a welding for a fourth." So, they were classifying them into jobs. And of all those people, 34 fish, only three were made trustys. So, that tells you most of them, they were like, "Eh, you're going to run--[crosstalk]"  Woody: Those three had probably been there before, and then the ones under the gun, that's the shittiest job in the world. Can you imagine, like this summer, when it's 105 and then 116 with a heat index out there all day long, swinging a hoe? That's crazy.Jim: Yeah, that's insane.Woody: But they did something to get there.Jim: That's right. Woody: This one says, "Brown bags chops. John Hunt told the man he was hungry, and he had purloined the poke chops-", and they spell it P-O-K-E, y'all, "-for a midnight snack. The man sighed and put his pencil in notebook and told John, 'Put them back.' But on going through the gate again, the same suspicious bulge was evident." Jim: [laughs] Woody: Right. "Searched for chops, were confiscated, as was also Hunt's trusty pass from Pine Ford dormitory, his mail is now being sent to the local jail."Jim: Which means lockdown, basically. Woody: That's funny. Jim: They locked his ass down. Woody: Extra poke chops out the kitchen.Jim: Poke chops. Woody: Poke chops. Jim: Yeah. So that was from that one, and we're going to do another one here from August 11, 1956. And there's a headline on there. It says, "Angola's Informal Hot Seat. Someone at Angola that I'm not going to name, that I neither know nor care was almost burned to a cinder one day last week."Woody: Uh-oh.Jim: Oh, this guy must have been mad at him. "It seems that this 'worker' presumably was doing a little digging under the steel plate that separates the medium from the trusty compounds, which is located beneath the walkway directly below the snitch box at the medium security gate." So, this dude was digging a hole--[crosstalk] Woody: He wanted to get out. Jim: "He quit in a hurry-" it gets better, "-when a bolt of sizzling lightning momentarily blinded him and luckily did not fry his hide. His shovel had cut through one of nine cables, each of which was live with 2300 volts of crackling death."Woody: What? Jim: Yes, sir. "The soil around the cable was burned to charcoal, and if the lucky bum had come into contact with that current in that cable, they'd have been buried right there where they found him."Woody: Wow. Jim: "Take this information for what it's worth and continue grave digging. The Angolite or dig your own grave, literally, with the assurance that the Angolite will make your name famous throughout the state. It's up to you."Woody: That's funny. Jim: [laughs] That guy was [unintelligible [00:15:55] trying to escape. Woody: [crosstalk] -dig out and dug into the cable lines. [crosstalk] -signs you see, "Don't dig here." They didn't have those back then. Crazy. All right, here we go, Bloody Angola. So, this one's called "Dumbbell Opens Passoit's Scalp." Jim: Uh-oh. [laughs] Woody: "Veral Passoit, was removed from the cell block to the hospital, August 8th, with a head wound. Veral, who was removed from the cell block area, August 8th, with a head wound, which he claimed to have suffered when a weight he was lifting fell on his noggin. Hospital records show that he is getting along very nicely despite the 15 or 18 sutures required to close the clean tight wound."Jim: Somebody hit him with a dumbbell. [laughs] Woody: Hit him with a knife. Dumbbell wouldn't leave a clean, open wound, it'd be smashed. Jim: Yeah. Woody: But they weren't going to rat on each other.Jim: Mm-hmm. Woody: [crosstalk] -take your lick.Jim: And y'all imagine this, now this is the 50s. These guys, there is no TV and all that. I mean, this is the only entertainment you get, and the only way you can keep up with what's going on in prison as an inmate. Woody: It was a huge prison, right? Jim: Yes. So, we'll move on. This is February 21st, 1959 edition. And the headline says, "New Prices at the Camp Store." And I really enjoyed this one because I'm going to give you actual prices, but it says, "Mr. James Thornton, Chief Administrative Officer, announced new price levels for many items at the camp store this week. And we have printed the price list on page 6." So, when you go to page six, I just highlighted some of these, and I'm going to read off to you that I found interesting. So, back in 1959, if you needed some Alka Seltzer, it was going to cost you 28 cents. Woody: Really? Jim: 28 cents. Cheez-It's, 10 cents. Woody: I can't believe they still had Cheez-It back then. Jim: Yeah. No, it surprised me. Cigarettes. You want some king size cigarettes? It's going to cost you 30 cents. Woody: What? Jim: So, if you want some kings and then some regulars, 29 cents. Woody: Yeah, but that was their currency back then. That's what they paid each other with. Jim: That's right. Community coffee, 40 cents. Woody: Community coffee, way back then. Jim: Way back then, and it was instant. Noxzema, 19 cents. Woody: I was using Noxzema in prison. Jim: [laughs] That's a great-- Look, they got nail clippers for 20 cents. Woody: Keep yourself properly clean. Jim: That's it. Potato chips, 5 cents. Woody: Really? Jim: Yeah. Shampoo, White Rain brand. Who knew that was around then? 41 cents. Rolling tobacco, 12 cents. Woody: Wow. That's a big deal in prison too, when I used to be there and they still had cigarettes, you could tell who was a really poor convict because they had the Bugler in the can or that blue can. The Bugler was a yellow, red, white, blue, and the other one was just a light blue can. But they were the ones that couldn't afford the Camels or the Marlboros or whatever and had to roll their own cigarettes. And the ones who couldn't afford any of those, when the other ones would throw their butts out, they'd go pick up the butts and smoke the butts. Jim: Oh, come on. Ugh. Toothpaste, everybody's got to have toothpaste. Well, it cost you 12 cents for Colgate. Woody: Wow. It's cheap.Jim: Yeah. Vicks salve, 35 cents. And they had Vaseline hair oil back then. That was 14 cents. So, I'm going to take this and I'm going to post it on the Patreon.Woody: Yeah, because there's a lot of stuff. Jim: Yeah, it's a lot of stuff, but pretty cool to go through. They got pork skins on here. They got all kinds of stuff. Liver pills. Woody: Liver pills. [chuckles] Jim: What they call hives, which are like crackers back then. So, we'll post that on there so you patron members can look through it and really have some fun.Woody: Yeah, that's funny. Jim: Checking that out. And we'll go to September 10th, 1955. Woody is going to start us off on that one. Woody: All right. So, September 1955. "Airport here averages plane per day. Attendance at the Angola airport were a shade busy last week. Logged in and out were three planes." They were real busy, huh? "Monday, the Paul A. Lambert Cessna arrived and departed. Tuesday the Jas F. O'Neill craft. And Wednesday, a Red two plane bearing number N970246." Jim: Oh, my God, they even knew the tag number.Woody: [chuckles] I know my mom when she was on the parole board, they used to fly them around the state because more cost efficient and quicker to get them there and stuff. But I can't believe they had it back in the 50s.Jim: Yeah, planes have been around a while. They were flying them in World War II and all.Woody: Yeah, but not passenger planes. Jim: Yeah.Woody: I mean some, but I guess it was probably military surplus. Jim: Yeah. "One on the lam still running," it says. "Police in four states--" and I'm going to look up this case, y'all, because I was like, wow, this would be a good one to cover. "Police in four states are today looking for Ray Coughron, 28, a 15-year termer, formerly domiciled at Camp H-2. Donning a correctional officer's uniform, Coughron quietly slipped out of the yard gate last Sunday. Bloodhounds failed to pick up his trail." Woody: He must have somebody waiting on him. Jim: Well, they have to have checked out [crosstalk] never heard of that.Woody: I mean, he had a CO uniform and then he got out. And if the Angola Chase team couldn't get on him? He's gone. Jim: Yeah. And he did. Woody: If I was going to run, you--[crosstalk] Jim: He got correctional officer's uniform. Must have worked in a laundry or something. Woody: If I was going to run or you were going to run, you'd have somebody waiting on you, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: I wouldn't be running those hills or trying to swim the river. Jim: And I guarantee, y'all, one difference because I've read a lot of these Angolites between then and now is they don't post escapes in the Angolite anymore. They don't want any other prisoners reading that.Woody: It's kind of like the mass shootings nowadays. We don't say the shooter's name. Like the one that just did it in Dollar Store, he copied the one in the same city five years before and mentioned it in his manifesto. Jim: That's right. Woody: But anyway. All right, so let's go to September 10th, 1955. That's 73 years ago, y'all, next week or the week after, says, "New laundry washes for all. For the first time in the history of the Louisiana State Penitentiary, a centrally located laundry is now handling washing and ironing for the entire institution."Jim: Oh.Woody: Right. "Today, wheels are rolling at the new prison and a crew of 15 men is daily turning out clean sheets, towels, pants, shirts, and personal linen of male inmates at all camps. The work formally had been done in part at the women's unit. The other part at individual camps. Set up in preparation for the time when all male inmates are housed at the new prison. The laundry, under the managership of Captain Bill Kerr, is currently turning out 1100 pounds of dry wash hourly. With the mangle of four ironing sheets, the plant will later on press pants and shirts. 'Ten pressing units have been ordered and are to be installed,' Captain Kerr said. A schedule has been worked out to handle washing five days per week. Saturday is general cleanup day for the plant. The plant at the woman's camp now handles only free personnel laundry." [laughter] Woody: They want to mix them up. That's your job. Another one building, they didn't have AC and they turned out 1100 pounds. Jim: Oh, yeah. Woody: It's crazy. Jim: And it's interesting that back then, 1955 is when they started just finally having this main laundry facility for the--[crosstalk] Woody: One thing they don't mention in there is underwear. So, when you get in, they give you prison-issued underwear. But when you do send your stuff into the laundry, most inmates keep their underwear and have their bitch wash them. That's why I say you'll be tossing salads and washing dirty drawers. They'll actually rent out their bitch to wash people's dirty underwear in their sinks. And they hand scrub them with soap and wash them and they hang them and make them fresh for whomever for like a couple of cigarettes. Jim: Wow. There you go, straight from the wolf, right there. "Prison guard post reaching skyward," this one says. "Those new two-story steel skeletons you see poking skyward with the yellow-painted girders are indications it won't be long. They're the structural steel columns for the new guard towers at the new prison. Each will be complete with glassed-in cupola and searchlight." Woody: And they're still there today. Jim: And they're still there today. Yeah. They made them to last back in those days, but built those new guard towers way back then. Woody: Yeah. The funny thing about those is when you go up in them, the outside doors lock, but they're manned 24/7, never take off. I've worked them before. You go in, they actually sit on the outside of the fence. So, inmates can't get to that door. So, you have to go to the door and holler up at the guard, the CO, and they lower you a key down and you unlock it and it's on a string. They pull it back up and you go in and you lock it from the inside. And it's got a spiral staircase. You come through, like a trap door, and it's a round room. That's where your rifle and your shotgun is and your lights and stuff like that. Jim: Yeah.Woody: It's pretty cool. Jim: Awesome. Woody: And then a telephone. That's the only other thing you have. You might have a radio, but pretty interesting. All right, so let's go to, again, on September 10th, 1955, says, "Free Ferry soon to open at St. Francisville. According to the Plainsman of Zachary-" That's the plainsman. It is the Zachary newspaper. "According to the Plainsman of Zachary, named The Feliciana, the vessel costs $200,000 and it may take a load off the Angola ferry. Visitors may enter via the front gate." Jim: Interesting. Woody: I have to ask my mom about that one because it didn't run for long.Jim: Yeah. Woody: Now, they have the ferry that still to this day that runs across into-- I think it might be [unintelligible 00:28:20]. It runs across the river and a lot of free people live over there. Or they'll drive into that ferry and the ferry drives them across and they come in. But this one would-- imagine how many COs lived in St. Francisville, which is back then, you had to take that long ass, hour-long road out, then get to St. Francisville another 10 or 15 minutes, I guess, they just ran them right up the river about a 15-minute ride. Jim: Yeah. Back then you had to have a ferry to go across that. Woody: Yeah. There's no bridges. You're right. Jim: Continuing on. This one is hilarious, y'all. It says, "Voodoo-Hoodoo. You've seen those copper wire amulets and necklaces of beans and so on. Voodoo stuff, maybe. Anyway, Edward Harris of Camp A walked up to the man last week and said people were after him. He didn't elaborate whether he had been hexed or just plain conjured. They locked him up lightly in the sneezer until the bug doctor examines his head." [laughter] Woody: We'll call it [unintelligible 00:29:33] of a mental case. The man said, "They're after him, so lock him up." Jim: The funny thing is with that particular deal is this guy's exposing him to the whole prison. Woody: Yeah. Jim: So, these guys, look, they gossip worse than anybody you've ever seen, and they're all nosy. Woody: They've got nothing else to do. Jim: That's right. Woody: Basically, he went to the man and ratted himself out. Crazy. Put him in the sneezer.Jim: Sneezer. Woody: "Ex-guard hurt in camp fracas. Frank Peoples, who until last Saturday was a guard was busted back to trusty-ship that day." So, that means he was an inmate guard. Jim: Yeah. Woody: "The following morning, he was rushed to the General Hospital suffering with a knotted head."[laughter] Woody: "He's resting well on the colored ward today." Think about this, the prison guards and we talked about that was a way for them to save money and everything back then, but at nighttime, they might have had one CO per camp, in nighttime, they just locked them in. And the prison guards in there were like gods. And you can get one taken out, he got demoted, and he got his ass beat that night. Jim: [laughs] Love that. And we got a couple on this page, and they're short, so I'm going to read a couple. I'll let Woody read a couple. The first says, "Bathing to be enforced." Yes. "Beware your long-eared scouts and men of wrath who nothing fear except a bath. White dormitory at the new prison were all set to give one of their number a dunking last week on account that he hadn't put the showers to use since he entered the joint, which is a violations of the rules, besides." [chuckles] So that was a little short one. Woody: Even most of the convicts don't like a stinky ass. Jim: That's right. Woody: You get some people in there, not only have they not ever followed the rules in civilization, but they don't have any personal hygiene. So, I think what they're probably saying is the inmates drug them in there [crosstalk] ass down. Jim: That's exactly what they did. Gave him a GI shower. [laughs] Woody: [crosstalk] -stinky motherfucker.Jim: They basically forced his ass take a bath. He must have been stinking. Imagine you're working out in those fields all day. Oh, my God.Woody: Nasty. No deodorant and everything else. Jim: You would think you'd want to take one. But anyhoo, "Localite knifed in camp affray. Henry Davis at Camp F underwent a ham stitching at the emergency ward of the General Hospital one day last week. Henny ran afoul of a knife in the hands of an unidentified assailant." Woody: [crosstalk] -he's unidentified. Jim: [laughs] Woody: He ran afoul of him. Jim: Yeah. Woody: That's crazy. Jim: Yeah. I love the way they wrote back then. Woody: I love it. Jim: It's a totally different dialect. Woody: Nobody was ratting anybody out. They just did. Jim: Yeah. Unidentified, I'm sure. Woody: And again, this is still September 10th, 1955, and says, "Cuts out early, ends in jail. He was trying to get to camp early for dinner, Calvin Mitchell, a camp aid trusty, told officials last week. Cutting grass with a crew, Mitchell was missed at a field count. A chase ensued and the lad was found wondering. They put him in the hole, pending DB action." The disciplinary board, y'all. Crazy.Jim: Yeah. Basically, he tried to say, "I was just hungry, going early to eat." Woody: [crosstalk] -get that meal. Jim: [laughs] Wandering.Woody: The next one. "Pipe used in knotting spree. When Warren Guidry of Camp of F uses a pipe, he uses a big one. One and a half inches. One day last week, he wielded it with painful and telling effect upon the noggin of Manson Powell, authorities said. Guidry is awaiting the outcome of a trial. Powell is awaiting the taking off of bandages." [laughter] Woody: That's funniest shit.Jim: That's crazy.Woody: It's like every day, this one's getting knifed, this one's getting hit.Jim: I'm telling you--  Woody: In the noggin. Jim: Yes, the noggin. And look, we're going to go way back to 1954, November 27th. And the headline on this one really struck my interest. It says, "34 shot in rabies try-out." Woody: What? Jim: Yeah. Now, y'all got to remember there was a time there was no rabies shot. You got rabies, you just went nuts or whatever. And a lot of times when they would get these shots, they would try them out on like inmates.Woody: New medical procedures. Jim: Yeah. They would be the guinea pig. Woody: Drug companies come in and basically pay the prison to get their test subjects. Jim: Yeah. So, it says, "34 Angola inmates, six of them women, are today nursing slightly sore arms in what is said to have been the first guinea pig effort ever made here in the interest of medical science. The 34 last Saturday and Sunday were given the first of a series of inoculations aimed at testing a new type of vaccine for the treatment of rabies. All were volunteers," the prison management said.Woody: Yeah, bet.Jim: [laughs] They might have paid them something, I don't know. Woody: [crosstalk] -cigarette. Jim: Yeah. "Under the auspice of the School of Medicine at Tulane University at New Orleans, the inoculations were given by Dr. DP. Conwell, a Tulane medical staffer." There you are, at the start of the rabies vaccine in history. And who knew Angola played such a big part in that?Woody: Well, I had actually heard something before about them trying new procedures on convicts, because who were going to complain? And they gave them a couple of smokes. They were like, "Whatever." Jim: That's it. Woody: [crosstalk] "-anyway. Give me the shot." That's crazy. That shit wouldn't fly nowadays. Jim: No. Woody: All right, so let's take you to the next one we're going to do. And it says, "Count soars, official--" And that's spelled count soars, S-O-A-R-S, "Official sore," S-O-R-E, "Fresh fish may find no room." And then, y'all, we're talking about fresh inmates. "Today's inmate population swelled to a total of 2810, brought consternation to camp officials and worried frowns to the management last week. For the headcount is the highest here since the end of World War II, an authoritative source said. Already overcrowded at most units, Angola camp chiefs have been hard put to find sleeping room for their new borders. The count is suspected to hit 3000 by mid-year of 1955."Jim: Dang.Woody: That's crazy. Jim: Yeah.Woody: It's double that now. Jim: And they've added on--Woody: They've got a bunch of other prisons now too. They didn't have DCI and Winn and all those other prisons back then.Jim: Yeah. And so, we're still in 1954. And it says, "Here's that stuff again. Like the old saying about the character who, every time he opened his mouth, put his foot in it, last week, The Angolite carried a story about a patch of that nauseous stuff, okra, [laughs] situated just outside the fence of the woman's camp. And proving that the dames don't look into other people's backyards, as soon as she had read the account, buxom Alice said-," buxom Alice, they called her buxom Alice. "Buxom Alice said, 'Where's the okra? Why, I just love okra.' Yesterday at all units the food service department ordered for supper, you guessed it, boiled okra." Yuck. [laughter] Woody: That's funny. Jim: They didn't like that boiled okra.Woody: They're feeding them-- [crosstalk] Jim: I kind of like okra myself. Woody: [crosstalk] -especially my [unintelligible 00:38:15]-- Didn't cost them a whole lot to feed them. Jim: Buxom Alice, she liked her some okra. Woody: Right. Buxom Alice. That's funny. Well, y'all, I'm going to read you these next two. "Four men fail to rise, shine. Captain says your neck is mine. Four localites who bed down at Camp A were collared by police at that unit one day last week and charged with failing to rise and shine in the morning, as is customary in places like this. The four, Claudius Wall, Victor Stewart, Howard D. Keyes, and Robert Lewis, were escorted to the camp lockup to weigh the action of the disciplinary board. Because the quartet was asleep when they should have been awake, the camp count was snafued. Nothing will irritate a prison management as much as a fouled-up count of heads, it was said." [laughter]Woody: You messed up the count, you were going in a hole. That still happens today. And these dudes just didn't want to get up. That's funny. All right. Jim: Love it. Woody: Let me read this one. "Loader whops, hurts worker. Sammy Robinson of Camp F was hospitalized Monday for injuries when he met up with a cane sling while working on a loader near the unit. Robinson is said to have been whopped about the head by the loader slings, which broke loose." Jim: Oh, my God. Woody: "He's on the colored ward." Wow. So, I guess one of the things flew off the machine or somebody probably hit him in the head with one of those [unintelligible 00:40:02]. That's crazy. Jim: Yeah. They're not going to rat each other up. Woody: Yeah. Jim: All right, we'll go to 1955, June 18th, and this headline says "STU-", and I'm not sure what STU stands for. Woody: It's going to be a Special Lockdown Unit. Jim: There you go. "STU men stage short-lived buck. Residents of the STU, disgruntled over the quality and distribution of the food and a few other items, refused to enter their mess hall Wednesday evening, declaring a camp wide buck."Woody: Uh-oh. That's right. "When the people came, however, the usual conversation settled everything." [laughs]Woody: They're like, "I'm about to shoot your ass." Jim: The usual conversation. I love it. Woody: That's funny. So, bucking up, y'all, and I've been a part of a couple of them, but they were like, "Fuck it, we're not doing it, and we're going to protest." And Warden Burl Cain, we talked about this on an episode, came in. He said, "Give the first one--" They weren't going to work in a crawfish plant. "Give the first one a direct verbal order, and as soon as they say no, arrest them." You still get arrested. So, bucking up. And the usual conversation was had, probably the same thing, like back then, "We're going to shoot you if you don't go to work." June 18th, 1955. "A little girl wants her dog. Tuffy, where are you? A farm-wide search has failed to produce any sign of Tuffy, the six-year-old Boston terrier who was owned by plumber foreman, Harry Dwyer, who'd made his home at Camp E and claimed the yard there as his personal domain. Dwyer says he is sure Tuffy is not dead. His body would have been found by this time, he reasoned. Meanwhile, Tuffy's little mistress, eight-year-old Nickie Dwyer, sent the following message to the Angolite. 'My dog's name was Tuffy. He was eight years old at the time he disappeared. He was a faithful dog and I loved him so. I was raised with Tuffy. He was smarter than most dogs. I do have three other dogs, but they will never mean as much to me as Tuffy. Please bring him back to me, Nickie Dwyer.'" [laughter] Woody: I wonder if my momma knew her.Jim: That's crazy. So, this was apparently a plumber foreman. He had a dog that hung out at the camps.Woody: And they were all inside--[crosstalk] Jim: Daughter sent a plea to the Angolite. Woody: Let me do another real quick, says, "Stray dog round-up now in operation. In accordance with an order from the management, all stray dogs on the farm are being rounded up for disposal each evening. The drive will be in effect through July 4th." So, they were looking for--[crosstalk] Jim: Oh, my God.Woody: Stray dogs, they were killing their ass. Jim: Yeah. For disposal. Woody: Right. Jim: That's crazy.Woody: What if they cooked them? Jim: 1955, y'all. All right, "What's in a name?" This was a good one. "James Williams, who boards at Camp I and has a Yankee accent, which he acquired in Madison County, Wisconsin, wishes the management would learn that he is not James A. Williams. It's a little confusing at first, but not so very difficult once you get the hang of it from Williams. 'Their James A. Williams lives at Camp A,' he explained earnestly, as our eyes began to get glassy. 'Like last October. I almost went to the Red Hats,' he continued. 'Or November, when they called me to the visiting room and walked me into a family of total strangers,' he continued. 'It's getting so I never know who I am, much less where I am.' Williams said it happened again last week. He came within a split second of appearing before the parole board with a lawyer and four relatives, but not his relatives. 'I keep wondering what's going to happen when this other boy's time is up,' he sighed, shaking his head dolefully. It is an interesting thought at that." Woody: What was his name? Jim: James A. Williams. But they had two James A. Williams. Woody: They probably had five of them. He's from Wisconsin. Boy, you know he was doing a hard time [crosstalk] Wisconsin the other day, it was 50 degrees in the morning. I got in Louisiana, it was 100 degrees. Jim: Come on. Jesus. Well, James A. Williams, hopefully they released the guy-- Woody: [crosstalk] -Madison County where the guy was from. Jim: Wow. Woody: All right. "Busy tag plant takes short order," from June 18th, 1955. "An order for 40 large game preserve signs, each with replicas of the bobwhite quail in the corners, was turned out on time by the tag plant last week. They are on 24-hour duty producing a million new auto licensed tags for 56." Jim: Unbelievable. Woody: "Plus hundreds of steel bunks for the new prison. Sheet metal gutters and what have you." [laughter] Woody: Most of these, y'all, are just like a little bitty short articles. All right, the next one says, "Knife victim has loss of memory." I can imagine. "Hyde Walker of Camp F was hospitalized Tuesday with superficial knife wounds on his left arm and shoulder. Stricken with a lapse of memory, says he was unable to recall how he got hurt. Security officials suggested that he might have got careless while shaving."[laughter] Jim: That is great.Woody: They weren't even worried about him. Jim: And they might have been the ones that hurt him. He might have got lax while shaving. Yeah, that's crazy. Here's one I found interesting. It says, "Dental clinic cracks own record. The biggest week in the history of the dental department went on record during the seven days from June 5th through the 11th of 1955, according to their bookkeeping department. The figures show a total of 115 patients were handled. Seven plates were complete and fitted, and 12 others were put into process. There were 51 extractions, 34 marked miscellaneous, and a variety of other entries." So basically, they're pulling teeth left and right. That one week, they pulled 51 teeth. I thought that was interesting. Woody: [crosstalk] -too many feelings when they could just rip them out. Jim: Yeah. And I'll give you this one. It says, "Two use razorblade, put cells in stitches. Two unidentified colored women from Camp D were treated for minor lacerations at the emergency ward last Tuesday. Weapons used is said to have been a razorblade. Following treatment for both, they were released and returned to camp." So, they tried to commit suicide. Two women.Woody: I wonder if they got in a fight with each other. Maybe they did. Two unidentified women from Camp D were treated for minor-- They might have gotten in a knife fight with each other. Jim: Maybe.Woody: Maybe it was suicide. I don't know. All right, September 18th, 1954, y'all. "Uniforms for free personnel soon. For the first time in the history of Louisiana State Penitentiary, correctional officers will be garbed in uniforms." Wow, this is interesting. "'Hats, coats, trousers, and shirts are on order and will be issued,' Secretary Chief W. H. Maynard said Wednesday. The uniforms will be of a forest green hue with beige-colored shirts, the official said. There will be no badges, however, nor any marks of rank worn. A shoulder patch will designate the wearer as an LSP officer."Jim: How about that?Woody: 1954 is when they had got the first uniforms. That's crazy.Jim: That's crazy. It had been around since 1901 as a state prison, and it took till 1954 to get-- so they just wore whatever they wanted, I guess. Button up shirts or something.Woody: Blue jeans and something. Real quick, at the top of this page, it says, "Dixie's only prison weekly, The Angolite." And it gives Volume 2, number 41. Angola, Louisiana. September 18th, 1954, 10 pages. But then, it had this box that says "Warning!!!! Laggards are warned. Monday, September 20th is the deadline for filing your petition for the October Pardon Board. Don't get stuck out."[laughter] Jim: Even in Angola, inside of Angola, you have thieves that steal from other inmates. "Dees, the barber shop got looted. The barber is offering a reward." In this article, it says, "Yes, sir. It never rains, but when it rains, it pours. Seems a fella has to get down in bed sick to find out who his friends are. Monday, Dees, the rotund Camp E ex-barber, woke up one day at the General Hospital where he is suffering from a diabetic onset, to find out that his shop at Camp E had been burglarized. Missing, he said, is $300 worth of barber tools and unfurnished leather goods. Dees has posted a $25 reward for the arrest and conviction of the miscreant. Or, he'll pay it for the return of the goods, no questions asked."Woody: $25 back then, shit, you can always buy a car for it. Jim: Yeah. And he was basically saying, "Look, if you took it, if you just give it back to me, I'll give you $25, or I'll pay someone $25 to find out who it was."Woody: That's pretty much their craft. And each camp would have one. That's an esteemed position, most of them-- Jim: And $300 worth back then? Inside prison, that's a million dollars.Woody: Yeah. September 18th, 1954. "Free inmate menus now the same. For what is believed to be the first time on Angola, menus for free personnel and inmates were identical last week, with the exception of breakfast. The innovation is by order of food services manager, J. H. Bonnette. A huge saving is expected to result from the consolidation, the food department said. Breakfast in the inmate dining rooms are planned, but for free personnel consists of short orders only." [laughter] Woody: I guess if you're free personnel, you can order your eggs over easy or whatever, and the rest of them are just getting shit on a shingle. That is funny.Jim: Yeah. So, you actually have a choice if you're free personnel. If you're not free personnel, you get what they throw on that plate. I'm going to read a couple of these, and I'll let Woody read the last one we're going to do for you today. And this was a correction from Old Wooden Ear. And he says-- Old Wooden Ear. He says, "Irate Camp Fers have asked for a correction. Seems one Freddie Armstrong, whom The Angolite said last week had been stabbed in a humbug, was not from Camp F, but from Camp A. The Angolite is happy to make this correction and with the hope that if any others get stabbed at Camp F, they won't bleed." Woody: That's funny. Jim: Even The Angolite had to issue retractions. And then, this one says, "Escapee, guards play hide and seek. Guard lines were still out yesterday for Ulice Baker, 28, a colored Camp C trusty who was found to be missing last Saturday. Baker, serving a seven-year sentence, is thought to still be hiding somewhere on the farm." How about that? Look, they were escaping left and right back in them days.Woody: The way it was they're still trying to, but they got a whole lot more security stuff in place, razor wire and all that and the wolfdogs. All right, this one says, big headlines, "Frazier is oldest! A glance at the records settled the question once and for all who's the convict with the longest time in point of service on Angola. Records showed Charlie Frazier--" We need to talk about him. Jim: Yeah. Woody: "Records show Charlie Frazier Camp H-2 hospital steward was received in September of 1933 with one sentence of 18 years, one of 28 years, and a life term, all stacked on top of the other. Charlie is registered number 23409, is the oldest on the books. His discharge date, however, is still 20 years away. The book says December 3rd, 1974." Now, look in the DOC, you're known by your inmate numbers. Now, they're alone. Fucking that means he was the 23409th inmate when he came in, ever to go to the gates of Angola. After the Civil War when they started.Jim: And probably one of the most notorious-- really, in American history, there's a whole big, long story for Charlie Frazier, and we will tell his story one day. He's a tough one to research because this was so long ago, but I'm going to come up with some stuff for him. Just two quick short ones, and then we got to wrap it up for today. This one says, "Toe whacked off. Andrew Peters, a resident of the STU, lost the third toe on his right foot via surgery last week. The operation was performed at the Angola General Hospital." So, something happened, he had to whack his toe off. Woody: He had diabetes or something. Jim: And then, the one below it says, "Three and a hassle. Three juveniles at H-1 were sporting an assortment of moused eyes, puffed lips, and other sores today as the result of a free-for-all hassle last Tuesday. The trio, all of whom were unidentified, were given first aid, a piece of steak for their eyes and sent home--" Woody: And they run a piece of steak with a baloney. Jim: [laughs] Yeah, there was no steak, I can promise you.Woody: We need to look in that too, because they're housing the juveniles there now and they're so fucking pissed off about it. But [crosstalk] back then they had women and juveniles too. Woody: Yeah, they sure did. And so, we'll be bringing you stuff on that. Appreciate all you patrons out there that follow. Look, we dropped a bonus episode Monday just for patrons, where we covered the first 20 death row inmates that are requesting clemency and got those hearings. We went into an in-depth breakdown of each of those, dropped that on Monday. So, if you're not a patron, join Patreon, you can get that. Another quick announcement, Apple Podcast. For those that don't do Patreon for whatever reason, we're now on Apple Podcast as a subscription option as well. You just go to your Apple Podcast app, and you'll see it. I'm going to label all those. It'll say Apple Podcast Bonus Episode.Woody: Yeah. Also, what happens on Apple Podcast, anytime you go to the Apple Podcast player, and you type in "Bloody Angola," it'll pull it up and it'll give you, like, I think it's free trial for whatever, for seven days. It'll list episodes and everything else. Pretty cool deal, I think. Jim: If you're not and you want to try it, there's a free trial going on. Woody: Some people [crosstalk] either they don't know what Patreon is or they don't want to use it. I have that on the regular Real Life Real Crime. Jim: Well, some people want-- and they want to listen to their podcast through one particular app and not have to go different places. So, Apple Podcast enables that. Woody: So, if you like it and you want to try it and then get your free seven-day trial and go listen to some bonus episodes because we got a ton of them. Jim: We got a ton. Woody: And thank y'all and we love you so much. We appreciate each and every one of you. Jim: Yeah. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola. Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim and Woody: Peace. [Bloody Angola theme]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy