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This week on the blog, a podcast interview with playwright and screenwriter Jeffrey Hatcher on Columbo, Sherlock Holmes, favorite mysteries and more!LINKSA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Jeffrey Hatcher Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.hatcher.3/The Good Liar (Trailer): https://youtu.be/ljKzFGpPHhwMr. Holmes (Trailer): https://youtu.be/0G1lIBgk4PAStage Beauty (Trailer): https://youtu.be/-uc6xEBfdD0Columbo Clips from “Ashes to Ashes”Clip One: https://youtu.be/OCKECiaFsMQClip Two: https://youtu.be/BbO9SDz9FEcClip Three: https://youtu.be/GlNDAVAwMCIEli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTRANSCRIPTJohn: Can you remember your very first mystery, a movie, book, TV show, play, a mystery that really captured your imagination? Jeffrey: You know, I was thinking about this, and what came to mind was a Disney movie called Emile and the Detectives from 1964. So, I would have been six or seven years old. It's based on a series of German books by Eric Kastner about a young man named Emile and his group of friends who think of themselves as detectives. So, I remember that—I know that might've been the first film. And obviously it's not a play because, you know, little kids don't tend to go to stage thrillers or mysteries and, “Daddy, please take me to Sleuth.But there was a show called Burke's Law that I really loved. Gene Barry played Captain Amos Burke of the Homicide Division in Los Angeles, and he was very rich. That was the bit. The bit was that Captain Burke drove around in a gorgeous Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, and he had a chauffeur. And every mystery was structured classically as a whodunit.In fact, I think every title of every episode was “Who Killed Cock Robin?” “Who Killed Johnny Friendly?” that kind of thing. And they would have a cast of well-known Hollywood actors, so they were all of equal status. Because I always think that's one of the easiest ways to guess the killer is if it's like: Unknown Guy, Unknown Guy, Derek Jacobi, Unknown Guy, Unknown Guy. It's always going to be Derek Jacobi. John: Yeah, it's true. I remember that show. He was really cool. Jim: Well, now I'm going to have to look that up.Jeffrey: It had a great score, and he would gather all of the suspects, you know, at the end of the thing. I think my favorite was when he caught Paul Lynde as a murderer. And, of course, Paul Lynde, you know, kept it very low key when he was dragged off. He did his Alice Ghostly impersonation as he was taken away.John: They did have very similar vocal patterns, those two.Jeffrey: Yep. They're kind of the exact same person. Jim: I never saw them together. John: You might have on Bewitched. Jim: You're probably right.Jeffrey: Well, I might be wrong about this, either Alice Ghostly or Charlotte Ray went to school with Paul Lynde. And Charlotte Ray has that same sound too. You know, kind of warbly thing. Yes. I think they all went to Northwestern in the late 40s and early 50s. So maybe that was a way that they taught actors back then. John: They learned it all from Marion Horne, who had the very same warble in her voice. So, as you got a little older, were there other mysteries that you were attracted to?Jeffrey: Yeah. Luckily, my parents were very liberal about letting me see things that other people probably shouldn't have. I remember late in elementary school, fifth grade or so, I was reading Casino Royale. And one of the teachers said, “Well, you know, most kids, we wouldn't want to have read this, but it's okay if you do.”And I thought, what's that? And I'm so not dangerous; other kids are, well they would be affected oddly by James Bond? But yeah, I, I love spy stuff. You know, The Man from Uncle and The Wild Wild West, all those kind of things. I love James Bond. And very quickly I started reading the major mysteries. I think probably the first big book that I remember, the first novel, was The Hound of the Baskervilles. That's probably an entrance point for a lot of kids. So that's what comes in mind immediately. Jim: I certainly revisit that on—if not yearly basis, at least every few years I will reread The Hound of the Baskervilles. Love that story. That's good. Do you have, Jeffrey, favorite mystery fiction writers?Jeffrey: Oh, sure. But none of them are, you know, bizarre Japanese, Santa Domingo kind of writers that people always pull out of their back pockets to prove how cool they are. I mean, they're the usual suspects. Conan Doyle and Christie and Chandler and Hammett, you know, all of those. John Dickson Carr, all the locked room mysteries, that kind of thing. I can't say that I go very far off in one direction or another to pick up somebody who's completely bizarre. But if you go all the way back, I love reading Wilkie Collins.I've adapted at least one Wilkie Collins, and they read beautifully. You know, terrifically put together, and they've got a lot of blood and thunder to them. I think he called them sensation novels as opposed to mysteries, but they always have some mystery element. And he was, you know, a close friend of Charles Dickens and Dickens said that there were some things that Collins taught him about construction. In those days, they would write their novels in installments for magazines. So, you know, the desire or the need, frankly, to create a cliffhanger at the end of every episode or every chapter seems to have been born then from a capitalist instinct. John: Jeff, I know you studied acting. What inspired the move into playwriting?Jeffrey: I don't think I was a very good actor. I was the kind of actor who always played older, middle aged or older characters in college and high school, like Judge Brack in Hedda Gabler, those kind of people. My dream back in those days was to play Dr. Dysart in Equus and Andrew Wyke in Sleuth. So, I mean, that was my target. And then I moved to New York, and I auditioned for things and casting directors would say, “Well, you know, we actually do have 50 year old actors in New York and we don't need to put white gunk in their hair or anything like that. So, why don't you play your own age, 22 or 23?” And I was not very good at playing 22 or 23. But I'd always done some writing, and a friend of mine, Graham Slayton, who was out at the Playwrights Center here, and we'd gone to college together. He encouraged me to write a play, you know, write one act, and then write a full length. So, I always say this, I think most people go into the theater to be an actor, you know, probably 98%, and then bit by bit, we, you know, we peel off. We either leave the profession completely or we become directors, designers, writers, what have you. So, I don't think it's unnatural what I did. It's very rare to be like a Tom Stoppard who never wanted to act. It's a lot more normal to find the Harold Pinter who, you know, acted a lot in regional theaters in England before he wrote The Caretaker.Jim: Fascinating. Can we talk about Columbo?Jeffrey: Oh, yes, please. Jim: This is where I am so tickled pink for this conversation, because I was a huge and am a huge Peter Falk Columbo fan. I went back and watched the episode Ashes To Ashes, with Patrick McGowan that you created. Tell us how that came about. Jeffrey: I too was a huge fan of Columbo in the 70s. I remember for most of its run, it was on Sunday nights. It was part of that murder mystery wheel with things like Hec Ramsey and McCloud, right? But Columbo was the best of those, obviously. Everything, from the structure—the inverted mystery—to thw guest star of the week. Sometimes it was somebody very big and exciting, like Donald Pleasence or Ruth Gordon, but often it was slightly TV stars on the skids.John: Jack Cassidy, Jim: I was just going to say Jack Cassidy.Jeffrey: But at any rate, yeah, I loved it. I loved it. I remembered in high school, a friend and I doing a parody of Columbo where he played Columbo and I played the murderer of the week. And so many years later, when they rebooted the show in the nineties, my father died and I spent a lot of time at the funeral home with the funeral director. And having nothing to say to the funeral director one day, I said, “Have you got the good stories?”And he told me all these great stories about, you know, bodies that weren't really in the casket and what you can't cremate, et cetera. So, I suddenly had this idea of a Hollywood funeral director to the stars. And, via my agent, I knew Dan Luria, the actor. He's a close friend or was a close friend of Peter's. And so, he was able to take this one-page idea and show it to Peter. And then, one day, I get a phone call and it's, “Uh, hello Jeff, this is Peter Falk calling. I want to talk to you about your idea.” And they flew me out there. It was great fun, because Falk really ran the show. He was the executive producer at that point. He always kind of ran the show. I think he only wrote one episode, the one with Faye Dunaway, but he liked the idea.I spent a lot of time with him, I'd go to his house where he would do his drawings back in the studio and all that. But what he said he liked about it was he liked a new setting, they always liked a murderer and a setting that was special, with clues that are connected to, say, the murderer's profession. So, the Donald Pleasant one about the wine connoisseur and all the clues are about wine. Or the Dick Van Dyke one, where he's a photographer and most of the clues are about photography. So, he really liked that. And he said, “You gotta have that first clue and you gotta have the pop at the end.”So, and we worked on the treatment and then I wrote the screenplay. And then he asked McGoohan if he would do it, and McGoohan said, “Well, if I can direct it too.” And, you know, I've adored McGoohan from, you know, Secret Agent and The Prisoner. I mean, I'd say The Prisoner is like one of my favorite television shows ever. So, the idea that the two of them were going to work together on that script was just, you know, it was incredible. John: Were you able to be there during production at all? Jeffrey: No, I went out there about four times to write, because it took like a year or so. It was a kind of laborious process with ABC and all that, but I didn't go out during the shooting.Occasionally, this was, you know, the days of faxes, I'd get a phone call: “Can you redo something here?” And then I'd fax it out. So, I never met McGoohan. I would only fax with him. But they built this whole Hollywood crematorium thing on the set. And Falk was saying at one point, “I'm getting pushback from Universal that we've got to do all this stuff. We've got to build everything.” And I was saying, “Well, you know, 60 percent of the script takes place there. If you're going to try to find a funeral home like it, you're going to have all that hassle.” And eventually they made the point that, yeah, to build this is going to cost less than searching around Hollywood for the right crematorium, And it had a great cast, you know, it had Richard Libertini and Sally Kellerman, and Rue McClanahan was our murder victim.Jim: I'll tell you every scene that Peter Falk and Mr. McGoohan had together. They looked to me as an actor, like they were having a blast being on together. Jeffrey: They really loved each other. They first met when McGoohan did that episode, By Dawn's Early Light, where he played the head of the military school. It's a terrific episode. It was a great performance. And although their acting styles are completely different, You know, Falk much more, you know, fifties, methody, shambolic. And McGoohan very, you know, his voice cracking, you know, and very affected and brittle. But they really loved each other and they liked to throw each other curveballs.There are things in the, in the show that are ad libs that they throw. There's one bit, I think it's hilarious. It's when Columbo tells the murderer that basically knows he did it, but he doesn't have a way to nail him. And, McGoohan is saying, “So then I suppose you have no case, do you?” And Falk says, “Ah, no, sir, I don't.” And he walks right off camera, you know, like down a hallway. And McGoohan stares off and says, “Have you gone?” And none of that was scripted. Peter just walks off set. And if you watch the episode, they had to dub in McGoohan saying, “Have you gone,” because the crew was laughing at the fact that Peter just strolled away. So McGoohan adlibs that and then they had to cover it later to make sure the sound wasn't screwed up. Jim: Fantastic. John: Kudos to you for that script, because every piece is there. Every clue is there. Everything pays off. It's just it is so tight, and it has that pop at the end that he wanted. It's really an excellent, excellent mystery.Jim: And a terrific closing line. Terrific closing line. Jeffrey: Yeah, that I did right. That was not an ad lib. Jim: It's a fantastic moment. And he, Peter Falk, looks just almost right at the camera and delivers that line as if it's, Hey, check this line out. It was great. Enjoyed every minute of it. Can we, um, can I ask some questions about Sherlock Holmes now?Jeffrey: Oh, yes. Jim: So, I enjoyed immensely Holmes and Watson that I saw a couple summers ago at Park Square. I was completely riveted and had no, absolutely no idea how it was going to pay off or who was who or what. And when it became clear, it was so much fun for me as an audience member. So I know that you have done a number of Holmes adaptations.There's Larry Millet, a St. Paul writer here and I know you adapted him, but as far as I can tell this one, pillar to post was all you. This wasn't an adaptation. You created this out of whole cloth. Am I right on that? Jeffrey: Yes. The, the idea came from doing the Larry Millet one, actually, because Steve Hendrickson was playing Holmes. And on opening night—the day of opening night—he had an aortic aneurysm, which they had to repair. And so, he wasn't able to do the show. And Peter Moore, the director, he went in and played Holmes for a couple of performances. And then I played Holmes for like three performances until Steve could get back. But in the interim, we've sat around saying, “All right, who can we get to play the role for like a week?” And we thought about all of the usual suspects, by which I mean, tall, ascetic looking actors. And everybody was booked, everybody was busy. Nobody could do it. So that's why Peter did it, and then I did it.But it struck me in thinking about casting Holmes, that there are a bunch of actors that you would say, you are a Holmes type. You are Sherlock Holmes. And it suddenly struck me, okay, back in the day, if Holmes were real, if he died—if he'd gone over to the falls of Reichenbach—people probably showed up and say, “Well, I'm Sherlock Holmes.”So, I thought, well, let's take that idea of casting Holmes to its logical conclusion: That a couple of people would come forward and say, “I'm Sherlock Holmes,” and then we'd wrap it together into another mystery. And we're sitting around—Bob Davis was playing Watson. And I said, “So, maybe, they're all in a hospital and Watson has to come to figure out which is which. And Bob said, “Oh, of course, Watson's gonna know which one is Holmes.”And that's what immediately gave me the idea for the twist at the end, why Watson wouldn't know which one was Holmes. So, I'm very grateful whenever an idea comes quickly like that, but it depends on Steve getting sick usually. Jim: Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it. If it's ever staged again anywhere, I will go. There was so much lovely about that show, just in terms of it being a mystery. And I'm a huge Sherlock Holmes fan. I don't want to give too much away in case people are seeing this at some point, but when it starts to be revealed—when Pierce's character starts talking about the reviews that he got in, in the West End—I I almost wet myself with laughter. It was so perfectly delivered and well written. I had just a great time at the theater that night. Jeffrey: It's one of those things where, well, you know how it is. You get an idea for something, and you pray to God that nobody else has done it. And I couldn't think of anybody having done this bit. I mean, some people have joked and said, it's kind of To Tell the Truth, isn't it? Because you have three people who come on and say, “I'm Sherlock Holmes.” “I'm Sherlock Holmes.” “I'm Sherlock Holmes.” Now surely somebody has done this before, but Nobody had. Jim: Well, it's wonderful. John: It's all in the timing. So, what is the, what's the hardest part about adapting Holmes to this stage?Jeffrey: Well, I suppose from a purist point of view‑by which I mean people like the Baker Street Irregulars and other organizations like that, the Norwegian Explorers here in Minnesota‑is can you fit your own‑they always call them pastiches, even if they're not comic‑can you fit your own Holmes pastiche into the canon?People spend a lot of time working out exactly where Holmes and Watson were on any given day between 1878 and 1930. So, one of the nice things about Holmes and Watson was, okay, so we're going to make it take place during the three-year interregnum when Holmes is pretending to be dead. And it works if you fit Holmes and Watson in between The Final Problem and The Adventure of the Empty House, it works. And that's hard to do. I would say, I mean, I really love Larry Millett's book and all that, but I'm sure it doesn't fit, so to speak. But that's up to you to care. If you're not a purist, you can fiddle around any old way you like. But I think it's kind of great to, to, to have the, the BSI types, the Baker Street Irregular types say, “Yes, this clicked into place.”Jim: So that's the most difficult thing. What's the easiest part?Jeffrey: Well, I think it's frankly the language, the dialogue. Somebody pointed out that Holmes is the most dramatically depicted character in history. More than Robin Hood, more than Jesus Christ. There are more actor versions of Holmes than any other fictional character.We've been surrounded by Holmes speak. Either if we've read the books or seen the movies or seen any of the plays for over 140 years. Right. So, in a way, if you're like me, you kind of absorb that language by osmosis. So, for some reason, it's very easy for me to click into the way I think Holmes talks. That very cerebral, very fast, sometimes complicated syntax. That I find probably the easiest part. Working out the plots, you want them to be Holmesian. You don't want them to be plots from, you know, don't want the case to be solved in a way that Sam Spade would, or Philip Marlowe would. And that takes a little bit of work. But for whatever reason, it's the actor in you, it's saying, all right, if you have to ad lib or improv your way of Sherlock Holmes this afternoon, you know, you'd be able to do it, right? I mean, he really has permeated our culture, no matter who the actor is.Jim: Speaking of great actors that have played Sherlock Holmes, you adapted a movie that Ian McKellen played, and I just watched it recently in preparation for this interview.Having not seen it before, I was riveted by it. His performance is terrific and heartbreaking at the same time. Can we talk about that? How did you come to that project? And just give us everything.Jeffrey: Well, it's based on a book called A Slight Trick of the Mind by Mitch Cullen, and it's about a very old Sherlock Holmes in Surrey, tending to his bees, as people in Holmesland know that he retired to do. And it involves a couple of cases, one in Japan and one about 20 years earlier in his life that he's trying to remember. And it also has to do with his relationship with his housekeeper and the housekeeper's son. The book was given to me by Anne Carey, the producer, and I worked on it probably off and on for about five years.A lot of time was spent talking about casting, because you had to have somebody play very old. I remember I went to meet with Ralph Fiennes once because we thought, well, Ralph Fiennes could play him at his own age,‑then probably his forties‑and with makeup in the nineties.And Ralph said‑Ralph was in another film that I'd done‑and he said, “Oh, I don't wear all that makeup. That's just far too much.” And I said, “Well, you did in Harry Potter and The English Patient, you kind of looked like a melted candle.” And he said, “Yes, and I don't want to do that again.” So, we always had a very short list of actors, probably like six actors in the whole world And McKellen was one of them and we waited for him to become available And yeah, he was terrific. I'll tell you one funny story: One day, he had a lot of prosthetics, not a lot, but enough. He wanted to build up his cheekbones and his nose a bit. He wanted a bit, he thought his own nose was a bit too potatoish. So, he wanted a more Roman nose. So, he was taking a nap one day between takes. And they brought him in, said, “Ian, it's time for you to do the, this scene,” and he'd been sleeping, I guess, on one side, and his fake cheek and his nose had moved up his face. But he hadn't looked in the mirror, and he didn't know. So he came on and said, “Very well, I'm all ready to go.” And it was like Quasimodo.It's like 5:52 and they're supposed to stop shooting at six. And there was a mad panic of, Fix Ian's face! Get that cheekbone back where it's supposed to be! Knock that nose into place! A six o'clock, we go into overtime!” But it was very funny that he hadn't noticed it. You kind of think you'd feel if your own nose or cheekbone had been crushed, but of course it was a makeup. So, he didn't feel anything. Jim: This is just the, uh, the actor fan boy in me. I'm an enormous fan of his work straight across the board. Did you have much interaction with him and what kind of fella is he just in general?Jeffrey: He's a hoot. Bill Condon, the director, said, “Ian is kind of methody. So, when you see him on set, he'll be very decorous, you know, he'll be kind of like Sherlock Holmes.” And it was true, he goes, “Oh, Jeffrey Hatcher, it's very good to meet you.” And he was kind of slow talking, all that. Ian was like 72 then, so he wasn't that old. But then when it was all over, they were doing all those--remember those ice Dumps, where people dump a tub of ice on you? You have these challenges? A the end of shooting, they had this challenge, and Ian comes out in short shorts, and a bunch of ballet dancers surrounds him. And he's like, “Alright, everyone, let's do the ice challenge.” And, he turned into this bright dancer. He's kind of a gay poster boy, you know, ever since he was one of the most famous coming out of the last 20 some years. So, you know, he was suddenly bright and splashy and, you know, all that old stuff dropped away. He has all of his headgear at his house and his townhouse. He had a party for us at the end of shooting. And so, there's a Gandalf's weird hat and there's Magneto's helmet, you know, along with top hats and things like that. And they're all kind of lined up there. And then people in the crew would say, can I take a picture of you as Gandalf? “Well, why, of course,” and he does all that stuff. So no, he's wonderful. Jim: You do a very good impression as well. That was great. Now, how did you come to the project, The Good Liar, which again, I watched in preparation for this and was mesmerized by the whole thing, especially the mystery part of it, the ending, it was brilliant.How did you come to that project?Jeffrey: Well, again, it was a book and Warner Brothers had the rights to it. And because Bill and I had worked on Mr. Holmes--Bill Condon--Bill was attached to direct. And so I went in to talk about how to adapt it.This is kind of odd. It's again based in McKellen. In the meeting room at Warner Brothers, there was a life size version of Ian as Gandalf done in Legos. So, it was always, it'll be Ian McKellen and somebody in The Good Liar. Ian as the con man. And that one kind of moved very quickly, because something changed in Bill Condon's schedule. Then they asked Helen Mirren, and she said yes very quickly.And it's a very interesting book, but it had to be condensed rather a lot. There's a lot of flashbacks and going back and forth in time. And we all decided that the main story had to be about this one con that had a weird connection to the past. So, a lot of that kind of adaptation work is deciding what not to include, so you can't really be completely faithful to a book that way. But I do take the point with certain books. When my son was young, he'd go to a Harry Potter movie, and he'd get all pissed off. Pissed off because he'd say Dobby the Elf did a lot more in the book.But if it's a book that's not quite so well-known—The Good Liar isn't a terribly well-known book, nor was A Slight Trick of the Mind--you're able to have a lot more room to play. Jim: It's a very twisty story. Now that you're talking about the book, I'll probably have to go get the book and read it just for comparison. But what I saw on the screen, how did you keep it--because it was very clear at the end--it hits you like a freight train when it all sort of unravels and you start seeing all of these things. How did you keep that so clear for an audience? Because I'll admit, I'm not a huge mystery guy, and I'm not the brightest human, and yet I was able to follow that story completely.Jeffrey: Well, again, I think it's mostly about cutting things, I'm sure. And there are various versions of the script where there are a lot of other details. There's probably too much of one thing or another. And then of course, you know, you get in the editing room and you lose a couple of scenes too. These kinds of things are very tricky. I'm not sure that we were entirely successful in doing it, because you say, which is more important, surprise or suspense? Hitchcock used to have that line about, suspense is knowing there's a bomb under the table. And you watch the characters gather at the table. As opposed to simply having a bomb blow up and you didn't know about it.So, we often went back and forth about Should we reveal that the Helen Mirren character knows that Ian's character is doing something bad? Or do we try to keep it a secret until the end? But do you risk the audience getting ahead of you? I don't mind if the audience is slightly ahead. You know, it's that feeling you get in the theater where there's a reveal and you hear a couple of people say, “Oh, I knew it and they guessed it may be a minute before. But you don't want to get to the point where the audience is, you know, 20 minutes or a half an hour ahead of you.Jim: I certainly was not, I was not in any way. It unfolded perfectly for me in terms of it being a mystery and how it paid off. And Helen Mirren was brilliant. In fact, for a long time during it, I thought they were dueling con men, the way it was set up in the beginning where they were both entering their information and altering facts about themselves.I thought, “Oh, well, they're both con men and, and now we're going to see who is the better con man in the end.” And so. when it paid off. In a way different sort of way, it was terrific for me. Absolutely. Jeffrey: Well, and I thank you. But in a way, they were both con men. Jim: Yes, yes. But she wasn't a professional con man.Jeffrey: She wasn't just out to steal the money from him. She was out for something else. She was out for vengeance. Jim: Yes. Very good. Very, if you haven't seen it, The Good Liar folks, don't wait. I got it on Amazon prime and so can you.Jeffrey: I watched them do a scene, I was over there for about five days during the shooting.And watching the two of them work together was just unbelievable. The textures, the tones, the little lifts of the eyebrow, the shading on one word versus another. Just wonderful, wonderful stuff. Jim: Yeah. I will say I am a huge Marvel Cinematic Universe fan along with my son. We came to those together and I'm a big fan of that sort of movie. So I was delighted by this, because it was such a taut story. And I was involved in every second of what was going on and couldn't quite tell who the good guys were and who the bad guys were and how is this going to work and who's working with who?And it was great. And in my head, I was comparing my love for that sort of big blow it up with rayguns story to this very cerebral, internal. And I loved it, I guess is what I'm saying. And, I am, I think, as close to middle America as you're going to find in terms of a moviegoer. And I thought it was just dynamite. Jeffrey: It was very successful during the pandemic--so many things were when people were streaming--but it was weirdly successful when it hit Amazon or Netflix or whatever it was. And, I think you don't have to be British to understand two elderly people trying to find a relationship. And then it turns out that they both have reasons to hate and kill each other. But nonetheless, there is still a relationship there. So, I pictured a lot of lonely people watching The Good Liar and saying, “Yeah, I'd hang out with Ian McKellen, even if he did steal all my money.” John: Well, speaking of movies, I am occasionally handed notes here while we're live on the air from my wife. And she wants you to just say something about the adaptation you did of your play, Stage Beauty, and what that process was like and how, how that process went.Jeffrey: That was terrific because, primarily Richard Eyre--the director who used to run the National Theater and all that--because he's a theater man and the play's about theater. I love working with Bill Condon and I've loved working with Lassa Hallstrom and other people, but Richard was the first person to direct a film of any of my stuff. And he would call me up and say, “Well, we're thinking of offering it to Claire Danes.” or we're thinking…And usually you just hear later, Oh, somebody else got this role. But the relationship was more like a theater director and a playwright. I was there on set for rehearsals and all that.Which I haven't in the others. No, it was a wonderful experience, but I think primarily because the, the culture of theater saturated the process of making it and the process of rehearsing it and—again--his level of respect. It's different in Hollywood, everybody's very polite, they know they can fire you and you know, they can fire you and they're going to have somebody else write the dialogue if you're not going to do it, or if you don't do it well enough. In the theater, we just don't do that. It's a different world, a different culture, different kind of contracts too. But Richard really made that wonderful. And again, the cast that he put together: Billy Crudup and Claire and Rupert Everett and Edward Fox and Richard Griffiths. I remember one day when I was about to fly home, I told Richard Griffiths what a fan Evan-- my son, Evan--was of him in the Harry Potter movie. And he made his wife drive an hour to come to Shepperton with a photograph of him as Mr. Dursley that he could autograph for my son. John: Well, speaking of stage and adaptations, before we go into our lightning round here, you did two recent adaptations of existing thrillers--not necessarily mysteries, but thrillers--one of which Hitchcock made into a movie, which are Dial M for Murder and Wait Until Dark. And I'm just wondering what was that process for you? Why changes need to be made? And what kind of changes did you make?Jeffrey: Well, in both cases, I think you could argue that no, changes don't need to be made. They're wildly successful plays by Frederick Knott, and they've been successful for, you know, alternately 70 or 60 years.But in both cases, I got a call from a director or an artistic director saying, “We'd like to do it, but we'd like to change this or that.” And I'm a huge fan of Frederick Knott. He put things together beautifully. The intricacies of Dial M for Murder, you don't want to screw around with. And there are things in Wait Until Dark having to do just with the way he describes the set, you don't want to change anything or else the rather famous ending won't work. But in both cases, the women are probably not the most well drawn characters that he ever came up with. And Wait Until Dark, oddly, they're in a Greenwich Village apartment, but it always feels like they're really in Westchester or in Terre Haute, Indiana. It doesn't feel like you're in Greenwich Village in the 60s, especially not in the movie version with Audrey Hepburn. So, the director, Matt Shackman, said, why don't we throw it back into the 40s and see if we can have fun with that. And so it played out: The whole war and noir setting allowed me to play around with who the main character was. And I know this is a cliche to say, well, you know, can we find more agency for female characters in old plays or old films? But in a sense, it's true, because if you're going to ask an actress to play blind for two hours a night for a couple of months, it can't just be, I'm a blind victim. And I got lucky and killed the guy. You've got a somewhat better dialogue and maybe some other twists and turns. nSo that's what we did with Wait Until Dark. And then at The Old Globe, Barry Edelstein said, “well, you did Wait Until Dark. What about Dial? And I said, “Well, I don't think we can update it, because nothing will work. You know, the phones, the keys. And he said, “No, I'll keep it, keep it in the fifties. But what else could you What else could you do with the lover?”And he suggested--so I credit Barry on this--why don't you turn the lover played by Robert Cummings in the movie into a woman and make it a lesbian relationship? And that really opened all sorts of doors. It made the relationship scarier, something that you really want to keep a secret, 1953. And I was luckily able to find a couple of other plot twists that didn't interfere with any of Knott's original plot.So, in both cases, I think it's like you go into a watch. And the watch works great, but you want the watch to have a different appearance and a different feel when you put it on and tick a little differently. John: We've kept you for a way long time. So, let's do this as a speed round. And I know that these questions are the sorts that will change from day to day for some people, but I thought each of us could talk about our favorite mysteries in four different mediums. So, Jeff, your favorite mystery novel”Jeffrey: And Then There Were None. That's an easy one for me. John: That is. Jim, do you have one?Jim: Yeah, yeah, I don't read a lot of mysteries. I really enjoyed a Stephen King book called Mr. Mercedes, which was a cat and mouse game, and I enjoyed that quite a bit. That's only top of mind because I finished it recently.John: That counts. Jim: Does it? John: Yeah. That'll count. Jim: You're going to find that I am so middle America in my answers. John: That's okay. Mine is--I'm going to cheat a little bit and do a short story--which the original Don't Look Now that Daphne du Murier wrote, because as a mystery, it ties itself up. Like I said earlier, I like stuff that ties up right at the end. And it literally is in the last two or three sentences of that short story where everything falls into place. Jeff, your favorite mystery play? I can be one of yours if you want. Jeffrey: It's a battle between Sleuth or Dial M for Murder. Maybe Sleuth because I always wanted to be in it, but it's probably Dial M. But it's also followed up very quickly by Death Trap, which is a great comedy-mystery-thriller. It's kind of a post-modern, Meta play, but it's a play about the play you're watching. John: Excellent choices. My choice is Sleuth. You did have a chance to be in Sleuth because when I directed it, you're the first person I asked. But your schedule wouldn't let you do it. But you would have been a fantastic Andrew Wyke. I'm sorry our timing didn't work on that. Jeffrey: And you got a terrific Andrew in Julian Bailey, but if you wanted to do it again, I'm available. John: Jim, you hear that? Jim: I did hear that. Yes, I did hear that. John: Jim, do you have a favorite mystery play?Jim: You know, it's gonna sound like I'm sucking up, but I don't see a lot of mystery plays. There was a version of Gaslight that I saw with Jim Stoll as the lead. And he was terrific.But I so thoroughly enjoyed Holmes and Watson and would love the opportunity to see that a second time. I saw it so late in the run and it was so sold out that there was no coming back at that point to see it again. But I would love to see it a second time and think to myself, well, now that you know what you know, is it all there? Because my belief is it is all there. John: Yeah. Okay. Jeff, your favorite TV mystery?Jeffrey: Oh, Columbo. That's easy. Columbo.John: I'm gonna go with Poker Face, just because the pace on Poker Face is so much faster than Columbo, even though it's clearly based on Columbo. Jim, a favorite TV mystery?Jim: The Rockford Files, hands down. John: Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Last question all around. Jeff, your favorite mystery movie? Jeffrey: Laura. Jim: Ah, good one. John: I'm going to go with The Last of Sheila. If you haven't seen The Last of Sheila, it's a terrific mystery directed by Herbert Ross, written by Stephen Sondheim and Anthony Perkins. Fun little Stephen Sondheim trivia. The character of Andrew Wyke and his house were based on Stephen Sondheim. Jeffrey: Sondheim's townhouse has been for sale recently. I don't know if somebody bought it, but for a cool seven point something million, you're going to get it. John: All right. Let's maybe pool our money. Jim, your favorite mystery movie.Jim: I'm walking into the lion's den here with this one. Jeffrey, I hope this is okay, but I really enjoyed the Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock Holmes movies. And I revisit the second one in that series on a fairly regular basis, The Game of Shadows. I thought I enjoyed that a lot. Your thoughts on those movies quickly? Jeffrey: My only feeling about those is that I felt they were trying a little too hard not to do some of the traditional stuff. I got it, you know, like no deer stalker, that kind of thing. But I thought it was just trying a tad too hard to be You know, everybody's very good at Kung Fu, that kind of thing.Jim: Yes. And it's Sherlock Holmes as a superhero, which, uh, appeals to me. Jeffrey: I know the producer of those, and I know Guy Ritchie a little bit. And, I know they're still trying to get out a third one. Jim: Well, I hope they do. I really hope they do. Cause I enjoyed that version of Sherlock Holmes quite a bit. I thought it was funny and all of the clues were there and it paid off in the end as a mystery, but fun all along the road.Jeffrey: And the main thing they got right was the Holmes and Watson relationship, which, you know, as anybody will tell you, you can get a lot of things wrong, but get that right and you're more than two thirds there.

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with the writer of a great new book, “London After Midnight: The Lost Film,” a book about the classic lost Lon Chaney film.LINKS A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Daniel's Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/p/London-After-Midnight-The-Lost-Film-100075993768254/Buy the Book “London After Midnight: The Lost Film”: https://www.amazon.com/London-After-Midnight-Lost-Film/dp/1399939890Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTRANSCRIPTJohn: So, Daniel, when did you first become aware of London After Midnight? Daniel: I was about seven years old when I first stumbled into Lon Chaney through my love of all things Universal horror, and just that whole plethora of characters and actors that you just knew by name, but hadn't necessarily seen away from the many still photographs of Frankenstein, Dracula, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And the Phantom was the one to really spark my interest. But this was prior to eBay. I couldn't see the film of Lon Chaney's Phantom of the Opera for a year. So, I kind of had the ultimate build to books and documentaries, just teasing me, teasing me all the time. And when I eventually did watch a few documentaries, the one thing that they all had in common was the name Lon Chaney. I just thought I need to learn more about this character Lon Chaney, because he just found someone of superhuman proportions just who have done all of these crazy diverse characters. And, that's where London After Midnight eventually peeked out at me and, occupied a separate interest as all the Chaney characterizations do.John: So how did you get into the Universal films? Were you watching them on VHS? Were they on tv? Did the DVDs happen by then?Daniel: I was still in the VHS days. My dad is a real big fan of all this as well. So he first saw Bela Lugosi's Dracula, on TV when he was a kid. And prior to me being born he had amassed a huge VHS collection and a lot of those had Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, Henry Hull, Claude Rains, Vincent Price, what have you.And a lot of them were dedicated to Universal horrors. And as a young curious kid, my eyes eventually crossed these beautiful cases and I really wanted to watch them. I think my first one I ever watched was The Mummy's Tomb or Curse of the Mummy. And it's just grown ever since, really.John: You're starting at the lesser end of the Universal monsters. It's like someone's starting the Marx Brothers at The Big Store and going, "oh, these are great. I wonder if there's anything better?" Jim: Well, I kinda like the fact that you have come by this fascination, honestly, as my father would say. You sort of inherited the family business, if you will. The book is great. The book is just great. And I'll be honest, I had no, except for recording the novel that John wrote, I really had no frame of reference for London after Midnight.John: Well, Jim, were you a monster guy? Were you a Universal Monster kid?Jim: Oh yeah. I mean, I had all the models. I love all of that, and certainly knew about Lon Chaney as the Phantom of the Opera, as The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I knew he was the man with a thousand faces. I knew he, when he died, he wrote JR. on his makeup kit and gave it to his kid. So, I knew stuff. But London after Midnight I didn't know at all, except for the sort of iconic makeup and that image, which I was familiar with. What was the inspiration for you in terms of writing this book?Daniel: Like you say, I really had no immediate go-to reference for London after Midnight, away from one or two images in a book. Really clearly they were very impactful images of Chaney, skulking around the old haunted mansion with Edna Tichenor by his side with the lantern, the eyes, the teeth, the cloak, the top hat, the webs, everything. Pretty much everything that embodies a good atmospheric horror movie, but obviously we couldn't see it.So that is all its fangs had deepened itself into my bloodstream at that point, just like, why is it lost? Why can't I see it? And again, the term lost film was an alien concept to me at a young age. I've always been a very curious child. Anything that I don't know or understand that much, even things I do understand that well, I always have to try to find out more, 'cause I just can't accept that it's like a bookend process. It begins and then it ends. And that was the thing with London after Midnight. Everything I found in books or in little interviews, they were just all a bit too brief. And I just thought there has to be a deeper history here, as there are with many of the greatest movies of all time. But same with the movies that are more obscure. There is a full history there somewhere because, 'cause a film takes months to a year to complete.It was definitely a good challenge for me. When we first had our first home computer, it was one of those very few early subjects I was typing in like crazy to try to find out everything that I could. And, that all incubated in my little filing cabinet, which I was able to call upon years later.Some things which were redundant, some things which I had the only links to that I had printed off in advance quite, sensibly so, but then there were certain things that just had lots of question marks to me. Like, what year did the film perish? How did it perish? The people who saw the film originally?And unlike a lot of Chaney films, which have been covered in immense detail, London after Midnight, considering it's the most famous of all lost films, still for me, had major holes in it that I just, really wanted to know the answers to. A lot of those answers, eventually, I found, even people who knew and institutions that knew information to key events like famous MGM Fire, they were hard pressed to connect anything up, in regards to the film. It was like a jigsaw puzzle. I had all these amazing facts. However, none of them kind of made sense with each other.My favorite thing is researching and finding the outcomes to these things. So that's originally what spiraled me into the storm of crafting this, initial dissertation that I set myself, which eventually became so large. I had to do it as a book despite, I'd always wanted to do a book as a kid.When you see people that you idolize for some reason, you just want to write a book on them. Despite, there had been several books on Lon Chaney. But I just always knew from my childhood that I always wanted to contribute a printed volume either on Chaney or a particular film, and London after Midnight seemed to present the opportunity to me.I really just didn't want it to be a rehash of everything that we had seen before or read before in other accounts or in the Famous Monsters of Filmland Magazine, but just with a new cover. So, I thought I would only do a book if I could really contribute a fresh new perspective on the subject, which I hope hopefully did.John: Oh, you absolutely did. And this is an exhaustive book and a little exhausting. There's a ton of stuff in here. You mentioned Famous Monster of the Filmland, which is where I first saw that image. There's at least one cover of the magazine that used that image. And Forrest Ackerman had some good photos and would use them whenever he could and also would compare them to Mark the Vampire, the remake, partially because I think Carol Borland was still alive and he could interview her. And he talked about that remake quite a bit. But that iconic image that he put on the cover and whenever he could in the magazine-- Jim and I were talking before you came on, Daniel, about in my mind when you think of Lon Chaney, there's three images that come to mind: Phantom of the Opera, Quasimoto, and this one. And I think this one, the Man in the Beaver hat probably is the most iconic of his makeups, because, 'cause it is, it's somehow it got adopted into the culture as this is what you go to when it's a creepy guy walking around. And that's the one that everyone remembers. Do you have any idea, specifically what his process was for making that look, because it, it is I think ultimately a fairly simple design. It's just really clever.Daniel: Yes, it probably does fall into the category of his more simplistic makeups. But, again, Chaney did a lot of things simplistic-- today --were never seen back then in say, 1927. Particularly in the Phantom of the Opera's case in 1925, in which a lot of that makeup today would be done through CG, in terms of trying to eliminate the nose or to make your lips move to express dialogue. Chaney was very fortunate to have lived in the pantomime era, where he didn't have to rely on how his voice would sound, trying to talk through those dentures, in which case the makeup would probably have to have been more tamed to allow audio recorded dialogue to properly come through.But with regards to the beaver hat makeup, he had thin wires that fitted around his eyes to give it a more hypnotic stare. The teeth, which he had constructed by a personal dentist, eventually had a wire attached to the very top that held the corners of his mouth, opening to a nice curved, fixated, almost joker like grin.You can imagine with the monocles around his eyes, he was thankful there probably wasn't that much wind on a closed set, because he probably couldn't have closed his eyes that many times. But a lot of these things become spoken about and detailed over time with mythic status. That he had to have his eyes operated on to achieve the constant widening of his eyelids. Or the teeth -- he could only wear the teeth for certain periods of time before accidentally biting his tongue or his lips, et cetera. But Chaney certainly wasn't a sadist, with himself, with his makeups. He was very professional. Although he did go through undoubtedly a lot of discomfort, especially probably the most, explicit case would be for the Hunchback of Notre Dame, in which his whole body is crooked down into a stooped position.But, with London After Midnight, I do highly suspect that the inspiration for that makeup in general came from the Dracula novel. And because MGM had not acquired the rights to the Dracula novel, unlike how Universal acquired the rights of the Hunchback or, more importantly, Phantom of the Opera, by which point Gaston Leroux was still alive.It was just a loose adaptation of Dracula. But nevertheless, when you read the description of Dracula in Bram Stoker's novel, he does bear a similarity to Chaney's vampire, in which it's the long hair, a mouth full of sharp teeth, a ghastly pale palor and just dressed all in black and carries around a lantern.Whereas Bela Lugosi takes extraordinary leaps and turns away from the Stoker novel. But it must have definitely had an impact at the time, enough for MGM to over-market the image of Chaney's vampire, which only appears in the film for probably just under four minutes, compared to his detective disguise, which is the real main character of the film.Although the thing we all wanna see is Cheney moving about as the vampire and what facial expressions he pulled. It's just something that we just want to see because it's Lon Chaney.John: Right. And it makes you wonder if he had lived and had gotten to play Dracula, he kind of boxed himself into a corner, then if he'd already used the look from the book, you wonder what he would've come up with, if Lugosi hadn't done it, and if Chaney had had been our first Dracula.Jim: You know, the other thing that I think of strictly like through my actor filter is here's a guy who -- take Hunchback or Phantom or even this thing -- whatever process he went through to put that makeup on, you know, was hours of work, I'm sure. Hunchback several hours of work to get to that, that he did himself, and then they'd film all day.So, on top of, I mean, I just think that that's like, wow, when you think about today where somebody might go into a makeup chair and have two or three people working on them to get the look they want. Even if it took a few hours, that person is just sitting there getting the makeup done. He's doing all of this, and then turns in a full day, uh, in front of the cameras, which to me is like, wow, that's incredible.Daniel: Definitely, it's like two jobs in one. I imagine for an actor it must be really grueling in adapting to a makeup, especially if it's a heavy makeup where it covers the whole of your head or crushes down your nose, changes your lips, the fumes of chemicals going into your eyes.But then by the end of it, I imagine you are quite exhausted from just your head adapting to that. But then you have to go out and act as well. With Chaney, I suppose he could be more of a perfectionist than take as much time as he wanted within reason. And then once he came to the grueling end of it all, he's actually gotta go out and act countless takes. Probably repair a lot of the makeup as well after, after a couple of takes, certainly with things like the Hunchback or the Phantom of the Opera.John: And, you know, it's not only is he doing the makeup and acting, but in, you know, not so much in London After Midnight, but in Phantom of the Opera, he is quite athletic. When the phantom moves, he really moves. He's not stooped. He's got a lot of energy to him and he's got a makeup on that, unlike the Quasimoto makeup, what he's attempting to do with the phantom is, reductive. He's trying to take things away from his face.Daniel: Mm-hmm.John: And he's using all the tricks he knows and lighting to make that happen, but that means he's gotta hit particular marks for the light to hit it just right. And for you to see that his face is as, you know, skull-like as he made it. When you see him, you know, in London After Midnight as the professor inspector character, he has got a normal full man's face. It's a real face. Much like his son, he had a kind of a full face and what he was able to do with a phantom and take all that away, and be as physical as he was, is just phenomenal. I mean, he was a really, besides the makeup, he was a really good actor.Daniel: Oh, definitely. Jim: I agree with that completely. I kind of in what I watched, I wonder if he was the makeup artist, but not the actor and he did exactly the same makeup on somebody else. And so we had the same image. If those things would've resonated with us the way they do today. I think it had everything to do with who he was and his abilities in addition to the incredible makeup. He was just a tremendous performer.Daniel: Absolutely. He was a true multitasker. In his early days of theater, he was not only an actor, but he was a choreographer. He had a lot of jobs behind the scenes as well. Even when he had become a star in his own time, he would still help actors find the character within them. like Norma Sheera, et cetera. People who were kind of new to the movie making scene and the directors didn't really have that much patience with young actors or actresses. Whereas Chaney, because of his clout in the industry, no one really interfered with Chaney's authority on set. But he would really help actors find the character, find the emotion, 'cause it was just all about how well you translate it over for the audience, as opposed to the actor feeling a certain way that convinces themselves that they're the character. Chaney always tried to get the emotions across to the audience. Patsy Ruth Miller, who played Esemerelda in in the Hunchback, said that Chaney directed the film more than the director actually did.The director was actually even suggested by Chaney. So, Chaney really had his hands everywhere in the making of a film. And Patsy Ruth Miller said the thing that she learned from him was that it's the actress's job to make the audience feel how the character's meant to be feeling, and not necessarily the actor to feel what they should be feeling based on the script and the settings and everything.So I think, that's why Chaney in particular stands out, among all of the actors of his time.John: I think he would've transitioned really well into sound. I think, he had everything necessary to make that transition.Jim: There's one sound picture with him in it, isn't there, doesn't he? Doesn't he play a ventriloquist? John: I believe so.Daniel: Yes, it was a remake of The Unholy Three that he had made in 1925 as Echo the ventriloquist, and the gangster. And yes, by the time MGM had decided to pursue talkies -- also, funny enough, they were one of the last studios to transition to, just because they were the most, one, probably the most dominant studio in all of Hollywood, that they didn't feel the pressure to compete with the burgeoning talkie revolution.So they could afford to take their time, they could release a talkie, but then they could release several silent films and the revenue would still be amazing for the studio. Whereas other studios probably had to conform really quick just because they didn't have the star system, that MGM shamelessly flaunted. And several Chaney films had been transitioned to sound at this point with or without Chaney. But for Chaney himself, because he himself was the special effect, it was guaranteed to be a winner even if it had been an original story that isn't as remembered today strictly because people get to hear the thing that's been denied them for all this time, which is Chaney's voice. And he would've transitioned very easily to talkies is because he had a very rich, deep voice, which, coming from theater, he had to have had, in terms of doing dialogue. He wasn't someone like a lot of younger actors who had started out predominantly in feature films who could only pantomime lines. Chaney actually knew how to deliver dialogue, so it did feel natural and it didn't feel read off the page.And he does about five voices in The Unholy Three. So MGM was truly trying to market, his voice for everything that they could. As Mrs. O'Grady, his natural voice, he imitates a parrot and a girl. And yeah, he really would've flourished in the sound era. Jim: Yeah. John: Any surprises, as it sounds like you were researching this for virtually your whole life, but were there any surprises that you came across, as you really dug in about the film?Daniel: With regards to London after Midnight, the main surprise was undoubtedly the -- probably the star chapter of the whole thing -- which is the nitrate frames from an actual destroyed print of the film itself, which sounds crazy to even being able to say it. But, yeah the nitrate frames themselves presented a quandary of questions that just sent me into a whole nother research mode trying to find out where these impossible images came from, who they belonged to, why they even existed, why they specifically existed.Because, looking for something that, you know, you are told doesn't exist. And then to find it, you kind of think someone is watching over you, planting this stuff as though it's the ultimate tease. To find a foreign movie poster for London After Midnight would be one thing, but to find actual pieces of the lost film itself. It was certainly the most out of body experience I've ever had. Just to find something that I set out to find, but then you find it and you still can't believe that you've actually found it.John: How did you find it?Daniel: I had connections with a few foreign archives who would befriend me and took to my enthusiasm with the silent era, and specifically Chaney and all the stars connected to Chaney films.And, quite early on I was told that there were a few photo albums that had various snippets of silent films from Chaney. They didn't really go into what titles these were, 'cause they were just all a jumble. All I knew is that they came from (garbled) widow. And he had acquired prints of the whole films from various, I suppose, junk stores in Spain.But not being a projectionist, he just purely took them at the face value that he just taken the images and snipping them up and putting them in photo albums, like how you would just do with photographs. And then the rest of the material was sadly discarded by fire. So, all we were left with were these snipped relics, survivors almost to several Chaney lost films. Some of them not lost, but there were films like The Phantom of the Opera in there, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mockery, The Unknown. But then there were several lost films such as London After Midnight, the Big City, Thunder. And All the Brothers were Valiant, which are mainly other than Thunder are all totally complete lost films.So, to find this little treasure trove, it was just finding out what the images meant and connecting them up, trying to put them in some sort of chronological scholarly order. Grueling, but it was very fun at the same time. And because I had identified myself with all of these surviving production stills from the film -- a lot of them, which formed the basis of the 2002 reconstruction by Turner Classic Movies -- it didn't take me too long to identify what scenes these surviving nitrate frames were from. But there were several frames which had sets that I recognized and costumes that I recognized, but in the photographic stills, they don't occupy the same space at the same time. So, it's like the two separate elements had crossed over. So that left me with a scholarly, question of what I was looking at. I was able to go back and, sort of rectify certain wrongs that have been accepted throughout the sixties as being the original, say, opening to London after Midnight. So I've, been able to disprove a few things that have made the film, I suppose, a bit more puzzling to audiences. Some audiences didn't really get what the plot was to begin with. So, it was nice to actually put a bit more order to the madness finally.John: At what point did you come across the original treatment and the script?Daniel: The treatment and the script, they came from a private collector who had bought them at auction a number of years ago who I was able to thankfully contact, and they still had the two documents in question. I had learned through Philip J Riley's previous books on London after Midnight that he had the two latter drafts of the script, the second edition and the third draft edition.And, again, the question of why and where. I just always wondered where that first draft of the script was, hoping it would contain new scenes, and open new questions for me and to study. And once I've managed to find those two documents, they did present a lot of new, perspectives and material that added to the fuller plot of the original hypnotist scenario, as opposed to the shortened, time efficient London After Midnight film that was ultimately delivered to audiences. So again, it helped to put a little bit more order to the madness.Jim: You found an actual piece of the film that you were able to, somebody got images from it? And then you found the scripts? But the images are terrific and they're all in your book. They came from what exactly?Daniel: The just below 20 images of the film came from originally a distribution print, a Spanish distribution print, from about 1928. Originally, they were on 35 millimeter indicating that they were from the studio and as is with a lot of silent films that have been found in foreign archives.Normally when a film is done with its distribution, it would have to be returned to the original studio to be destroyed, except for the original negative and a studio print, because there is no reason why a studio would need to keep the thousands of prints when they have the pristine copy in their vault. But, in a lot of smaller theater cases, in order to save money on the postage of the shipping, they would just basically declare that they had destroyed the film on the studio's behalf. There was no record system with this stuff and that's how a lot of these films ended up in the basements of old theaters, which are eventually when they closed, the assets were sold off to collectors or traveling showmen. And eventually these films found their ways into archives or again, private collections. Some of which people know what they have.A lot of times they don't know what they have because they're more obsessed with, naturally, more dedicated to preserving the films of their own culture that was shown at the time, as opposed to a foreign American title, which they probably assume they already have a copy of. But it's how a lot of these films get found.And, with the London After Midnight, example, there were the images that I found spanned the entire seven reels, because they came from different points in the film. It wasn't a single strip of film, of a particular scene. Having thankfully the main source that we have for London After Midnight is the cutting continuity, which is the actual film edited down shot for shot, length for length.And it describes, briefly, although descriptive enough, what is actually in each and every single shot of the film. And comparing the single frame images from the film with this document, I was able to identify at what point these frames came from during the film, which again spanned the entire seven reels, indicating that a complete seven reel version of the film had gotten out under the studio system at one point.As is the case, I'm assuming, 'cause these came from the same collection, I'm assuming it was the same with the other lost Chaney films that again, sadly only survive in snippet form.John: It's like somebody was a collector and his wife said, "well, we don't have room for all this. Just take the frames you like and we'll get rid of the rest of it." So, you mentioned in passing the 2002 reconstruction that Turner Classic Movies did using the existing stills. I don't know if they were working from any of the scripts or not. That was the version I originally saw when I was working on writing, those portions of The Misers Dream that mentioned London After Midnight. Based on what you know now, how close is that reconstruction and where do you think they got it right and where'd they get it wrong?Daniel: The 2002, reconstruction, while a very commendable production, it does stray from the original edited film script. Again, the problem that they clearly faced on that production is that there were not enough photographed scenes to convey all the photographed scenes from the film. So what they eventually fell into the trap of doing was having to reuse the same photograph to sometimes convey two separate scenes, sometimes flipping the image to appear on the opposite side of the camera. And, because of the certain lack of stills in certain scenes cases, they had to rewrite them.And sometimes a visual scene had to have been replaced with an inter-title card, merely describing what had happened or describing a certain period in time, as opposed to showing a photograph of what we're meant to be seeing as opposed to just reading. So, they did the best with what they had.But since then, there have been several more images crop up in private collections or in the archives. So, unless a version of the film gets found, it's certainly an endeavor that could be revisited, I think, and either do a new visual reconstruction of sort, or attempt some sort remake of the film even.Jim: That's an idea. John: They certainly have the materials to do that. I've got an odd question. There's one famous image, a still image from the film, showing Chaney as Professor Burke, and he is reaching out to the man in the beaver hat whose back is to us. Is that a promo photo? Spoiler alert, Burke is playing the vampire in the movie. He admits that that's him. So, he never would've met the character. What is the story behind that photo?Daniel: There are actually three photographs depicting that, those characters that you described. There are the two photographs which show Chaney in the Balfor mansion seemingly directing a cloaked, top hatted figure with long hair, with its back towards us. And then there is another photograph of Chaney in the man in the beaver hat disguise with a seemingly twin right beside him outside of a door.Basically the scenes in the film in which Chaney appear to the Hamlin residents, the people who are being preyed upon by the alleged vampires, the scenes where Chaney and the vampire need to coexist in the same space or either appear to be in the same vicinity to affect other characters while at the same time interrogating others, Chaney's character of Burke employs a series of assistants to either dress up as vampires or at certain times dress up as his version of the vampire to parade around and pretend that they are the man in the beaver hat. Those particular shots, though, the vampire was always, photographed from behind rather than the front.The very famous scene, which was the scene that got first got me interested in London After Midnight, in which the maidm played by Polly Moran is in the chair shrieking at Chaney's winged self, hovering over her. It was unfortunate to me to realize that that was actually a flashback scene told from the maid's perspective.And by the end of the film, the maid is revealed to be an informant of Burke, a secret detective also. So, it's really a strong suspension of disbelief has to be employed because the whole scene of Chaney chasing the maid through the house and appearing under the door, that was clearly just the MGMs marketing at work just to show Chaney off in a bizarre makeup with a fantastic costume.Whereas he is predominantly the detective and the scenes where he's not needed to hypnotize a character in the full vampire makeup, he just employs an assistant who parades around in the house as him, all the times with his back turned so that the audience can't latch on as to who the character actually is, 'cause it must have posed quite a fun confusion that how can Chaney be a detective in this room where the maid has just ran from the Vampire, which is also Chaney?John: Yeah, and it doesn't help that the plot is fairly convoluted anyway, and then you add that layer. So, do you think we'll ever see a copy of it? Do you think it's in a basement somewhere?Daniel: I've always personally believed that the film does exist. Not personally out of just an unfounded fanboy wish, but just based on the evidence and examples of other films that have been found throughout time. Metropolis being probably the most prominent case. But, at one point there was nothing on London After Midnight and now there is just short of 20 frames for the film. So, if that can exist currently now in the year 2023, what makes us think that more footage can't be found by, say, 2030? I think with fans, there's such a high expectation that if it's not found in their own lifetime or in their own convenience space of time, it must not exist. There's still a lot of silent lost treasures that just have not been found at all that do exist though. So, with London After Midnight, from a purely realistic standpoint, I've always theorized myself that the film probably does exist in an archive somewhere, but it would probably be a very abridged, foreign condensed version, as opposed to a pristine 35-millimeter print that someone had ripped to safety stock because they knew in the future the film would become the most coveted of all lost films. So, I do believe it does exist. The whole theory of it existing in a private collection and someone's waiting to claim the newfound copyright on it, I think after December of last year, I think it's finally put that theory to rest. I don't think a collector consciously knows they have a copy of it. So, I think it's lost until found personally, but probably within an archive.Jim: Lost until found. That's a great title for a book. I like that a lot. What do you think of the remake, Mark of the Vampire and in your opinion, what does it tell us about, London After Midnight?Daniel: Well, Mark of the Vampire came about again, part of the Sound Revolution. It was one of those because it was Chaney and Todd Browning's most successful film for the studio. And Browning was currently, being held on a tight leash by MGM because of his shocking disaster film Freaks, I suppose they were a little bit nervous about giving him the reign to do what he wanted again. So, looking through their backlog of smash silent hits, London After Midnight seemed the most logical choice to remake, just simply because it was their most, successful collaboration. Had it have been The Unholy Three, I'm sure? Oh no, we already had The Unholy Three, but had it have been another Browning Chaney collaboration, it might have been The Unknown, otherwise. So, I suppose that's why London After Midnight was selected and eventually turned into Mark of the Vampire. The story does not stray too much from London After Midnight, although they seem to complicate it a little bit more by taking the Burke vampire character and turning it this time into three characters played by three different actors, all of which happened to be in cahoots with one another in trying to solve an old murder mystery.It's very atmospherical. You can definitely tell it's got Todd Browning signature on it. It's more pondering with this one why they just did not opt to make a legit, supernatural film, rather than go in the pseudo vampire arena that they pursued in 1927. Where audiences had by now become accustomed to the supernatural with Dracula and Frankenstein in 1931, which no longer relied on a detective trying to find out a certain mystery and has to disguise themselves as a monster.The monster was actually now a real thing in the movies. So I think if Bela Lugosi had been given the chance to have played a real Count Mora as a real vampire, I think it would've been slightly better received as opposed to a dated approach that was clearly now not the fashionable thing to do.I suppose again, because Browning was treading a very thin line with MGM, I suppose he couldn't really stray too far from the original source material. But I find it a very atmospherical film, although I think the story works better as a silent film than it does as a sound film, because there's a lot of silent scenes in that film, away from owls, hooting and armadillos scurrying about and winds. But I do think, based on things like The Cat and The Canary from 1927 and The Last Warning, I just think that detective sleuth with horror overtones serves better to the silent world than it does the sound world away from the legit, supernatural.John: So, if Chaney hadn't died, do you think he would have played Dracula? Do you think he would've been in Freaks? Would Freaks have been more normalized because it had a big name in it like that?Daniel: It would've been interesting if Chaney had played in Freaks. I think because Todd Browning used the kinds of individuals that he used for Freaks, maybe Chaney would've, for a change, had been the most outta place.John: Mm-hmm.Daniel: I do think he might have played Dracula. I think Universal would've had a hell of a time trying to get him over because he had just signed a new contract with MGM, whereas Todd Browning had transferred over to Universal by 1930 and really wanted to make Dracula for many years and probably discussed it with Chaney as far back as 1920.But certainly MGM would not have permitted Chaney to have gone over to Universal, even for a temporary period, without probably demanding a large piece of the action, in a financial sense, because Universal had acquired the rights to Dracula at this point. And, based on the stage play that had, come out on Broadway, it was probably assured that it was going to be a giant moneymaker, based on the success of the Dracula play.But because of Cheney's, status as a, I suppose retrospectively now, as a horror actor, he was probably the first person to be considered for that role by Carl Laemmle, senior and Junior for that matter. And Chaney gone by 1930, it did pose a puzzle as to who could take over these kinds of roles.Chaney was probably the only one to really successfully do it and make the monster an actual box office ingredient more than any other actor at that time, as he did with. Phantom, Blind Bargain and London After Midnight. So, I think to have pursued Chaney for a legit, supernatural film would've had enormous possibilities for Browning and Chaney himself.You can kind of see a trend, a trilogy forming, with Browning, from London After Midnight, in which he incorporates things he used in Dracula in London After Midnight. So, he kind of had this imagery quite early on. So, to go from – despite it's not in that order -- but to have London After Midnight, Mark of the Vampire, and he also did Dracula, he clearly was obsessed with the story. And I think Chaney was probably the, best actor for someone like Browning who complimented his way of thinking and approach to things like silence. As opposed to needing dialogue all the time, loud commotions. So, I think they dovetailed each other quite well, and that's why their ten year director actor relationship was as groundbreaking as it was.Jim: If the film does surface, if we find the film, what do you think people, how are they gonna react to the movie when they see it? What do you think? What's gonna be the reaction if it does surface?Daniel: Well, the lure of London After Midnight, the power in the film is its lost status rather than its widespread availability. I think it could never live up to the expectation that we've built up in our heads over the past 40 to 60 years. It was truly people, fans like Forrest J Ackerman that introduced and reignited the interest in Chaney's career by the late fifties and 1960s. That's when London After Midnight started to make the rounds in rumor, the rumors of a potential print existing, despite the film had not long been destroyed at that point. So, it was always a big mystery. There were always people who wanted to see the film, but with no access to home video, or et cetera, the only way you could probably see the film would've been at the studio who held everything. And, by the time the TV was coming out, a lot of silent films didn't make it to TV. So again, it has just germinated in people's heads probably in a better form than what they actually remembered. But, the true reality of London After Midnight is one more closer to the ground than it is in it's people are probably expecting to see something very supernatural on par with Dracula, whereas it's more so a Sherlock Holmes story with mild horrorish overtones to it that you can kind of see better examples of later on in Dracula in 1930 and in Mark of the Vampire.It's a film purely, I think for Lon Chaney fans. For myself, having read everything I can on the film, everything I've seen on the film, I personally love silent, detective stories, all with a touch of horror. So, I personally would know what I am going in to see. I'm not going in to see Chaney battling a Van Helsing like figure and turn to dust at the very end or turning to a bat. I'm going to see a detective melodrama that happens to have what looks like a vampire. So, it certainly couldn't live up to the expectations in people's minds and it's probably the only film to have had the greatest cheapest, marketing in history, I would think. It's one of those films, if it was discovered, you really would not have to do much marketing to promote it.It's one of those that in every fanzine, magazine, documentary referenced in pop. It has really marketed itself into becoming what I always call the mascot of the genre. There are other more important lost films that have been lost to us. The main one again, which has been found in its more complete form, was Metropolis, which is a better movie.But unlike Metropolis, London After Midnight has a lot more famous ingredients to it. It has a very famous director. It has a very famous actor whose process was legendary even during then. And it's actually the only film in which he actually has his make-up case make a cameo appearance by the very end. And it goes on the thing that everyone in every culture loves, which is the vampirism, the dark tales and folklore. So, when you say it, it just gets your imagination going. Whereas I think if you are watching it, it's probably you'll be looking over the projector to see if something even better is going to happen.The film had its mixed reactions when it originally came out. People liked it because it gave them that cheap thrill of being a very atmospherical, haunted house with the creepy figures of Chaney walking across those dusty hallways. But then the more important story is a murder mystery.It's not Dracula, but it has its own things going for it. I always kind of harken it back to the search for the Lochness Monster or Bigfoot. It has more power in your mind than it does in an aquarium or in a zoo. Hearing someone say that they think they saw something moving around in Lochness, but there's no photographic evidence, you just have the oral story, that is much more tangible in a way than actually seeing it in an aquarium where you can take it for granted. And it's the same with London After Midnight, and I think that's why a lot of hoaxster and pranksters tend to say that they have seen London After Midnight more than any other lost film.Jim: For a film that I would say the majority of the world does not have any frame of reference, and I'm using myself as the sort of blueprint for that, no frame of reference for this film. That image is iconic in a way that has been, I mean, it at first glance could be Jack the Ripper. I was talking to John before we started the podcast, once I locked in on that image, then I started to think, oh, the ghosts in Disney's Haunted Mansion, there's a couple of ghosts that have elements of that. I mean, it was so perfectly done, even though we don't, I bet you nine out ten people don't know the title London After Midnight, but I bet you seven outta ten people know this image.Daniel: Definitely, it has certainly made its mark on pop culture, again, I think because I think it's such a beautiful, simplistic design. Everything from the simplistically [garbled] to the bulging eyes and the very nice top hat as well, which is in itself today considered a very odd accessory for a grotesque, vampire character.But it's one of those things that has really carried over. It's influenced what the movies and artists. It was one of the influences for the Babadook creation for that particular monster. It was an influence on the Black Phone. It's just a perfect frame of reference for movie makers and sculptors and artists to keep taking from.John: Yep. It's, it'll live long beyond us. Daniel, one last question. I read somewhere or heard somewhere. You're next gonna tackle James Whale, is that correct? Daniel: James Whale is a subject, again, coming from, I happen to come from the exact same town that he was born and raised in, in Dudley, England. So, it's always been a subject close to home for me, which is quite convenient because I love his movies. So, I'm hoping to eventually, hopefully plan a documentary feature on him, based on a lot of family material in the surrounding areas that I was able to hunt down, and forgotten histories about him and just put it together in some form, hopefully in the future.John: That would be fantastic, and we'll have you back at that point.Jim: So, let's pretend for a minute that the audience is me, and they'd have absolutely no idea who James Whale is or what he's done. Just for a minute, let's pretend.John: Pretend that you don't know that?Jim: Yeah.Daniel: James Whale is the most known for his work for directing Frankenstein with Boris Karloff in 1931. But he also directed probably some of the most important horror films that have ever existed in the history of motion pictures. The Old Dark House, which can be cited with its very atmospherical, and black comedy tones, The Invisible Man with Claude Rains and Gloria Stewart in 1933. And, the most important one, which is probably the grand jewel in the whole of the Universal Monsters Empire, which is Bride of Frankenstein in 1935, which is the ultimate, example of everything that he had studied, everything that he'd learned with regards to cinema and comedy, life and death, and just making a very delicious cocktail of a movie in all of its black comedy, horrific, forms that we're still asking questions about today. One of his first films that he did was for Howard Hughes Hell's Angels, in which -- because he'd coming over from theater -- when again, films in America were taken off with the sound revolution. They all of a sudden needed British directors to translate English dialogue better than the actors could convey.So, James Whale was one of many to be taken over to America when he had a hit play called Journeys End, which became the most successful war play at that point. And he did his own film adaptation of Journeys End. He also did a really remarkable film called Showboat, which is another very iconic film.And again, someone with James Whale's horror credentials, you just think, how could someone who directed Frankenstein directed Showboat? But, clearly a very, very talented director who clearly could not be pigeonholed at the time as a strictly horror director, despite it is the horror films in which he is remembered for, understandably so, just because they contain his very individualistic wit and humor and his outlooks on life and politics. And being an openly gay director at the time, he really was a force unto himself. He was a very modern man even then.

- First off, for folks not familiar with your backgrounds, can you please each tell us a bit about yourselves?- Let's set the table a bit, what is software liability and what is driving the increased calls for it? For example the recently released National Cyber Strategy, and commentary by U.S. leaders such as from CISA's Jen Easterly- What are some examples the software industry can pull from to try and establish a foundational liability regime?- What are some of the unique challenges that make software a nuanced domain to try and implement something like this in, compared to some other industries?- Jim - you recently wrote a paper about "establishing the floor", can you elaborate on that for us a bit? How about you Chinmayi, any thoughts?- Some of have of course exclaimed something like this could/would kill innovation and have major economic consequences, or lead to "ambulance chasing" type behavior pursuing litigation as a weapon against vendors. What do you think about that? - Chinmayi - you had a paper titled "A Bug in the Software Liability Debate", where you talked about challenges of defining a duty of care, can you elaborate, and dealing with unknown vulnerabilities. Can you expand on that a bit?Jim - You've talked about focusing on the outcomes/product, not the process, why do you think that's important?- Another equally critical part of the conversation is Safe Harbor, that is protections for those who due perform the duty of care or act responsible. Can you touch on that topic, and each give your thoughts on what that may look like if it were to take shape?

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with magician Lance Burton about how he wrote (and directed and starred in) the delightfully comic “Billy Topit: Master Magician.”LINKSA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Lance Burton Website: https://www.lanceburton.com/Billy Topit Website: http://www.billytopit.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastLance Burton TranscriptJohn: I loved Billy Topit, both Jim and I did. I've made a number of low budget movies in my life, about a half dozen of them and the driving force behind them has almost always been, let's get together with some friends and make a movie. I got the sense that that was kind of part of the DNA of Billy Topit. Is that right?Lance: Well, yes, I just have to correct you on one thing: Billy Topit was not a low budget movie. It was a nobudget movie. We literally just decided, you know what, I'm not going to spend any money. Everyone volunteered. So, if it ever makes any money, I'll go back and pay the actors.John: Well, okay. But as someone who has done the same thing, I've done that a half dozen times with the no money. The results you got, given the no money status, were great. Your sound is exceptional. One of the things that's normally a big sign that it's a low budget movie is the sound is not good. It's a hard thing to get right and when you do get it right, it makes it sound like a big budget movie. The cinematography is terrific, the editing is fantastic. I don't know if you bought the music, or if someone did the music, but whatever it was it fit perfectly, and it just sailed along. So, for a movie that had no budget, you did an exceptional job of making a real movie.Lance: Oh, thank you. You're right, the sound is the one thing you really don't want to skimp on, because that's something you really can't fix in post a lot of the times. So, we did try to pay attention to the sound recording. As far as the music goes, some of the music was from my show that I already own. Some of the performance pieces, some of the music we use just for the movie, was rights free music that that I got from a company called Digital juice. They have all different sorts of music and it's searchable. So, you can find you know, rock and roll hard driving music, you can find, you know, instrumentals, you really have everything.Then there was a couple of pieces that a friend of mine, who's a musician wrote and recorded for me. And one of the pieces in the film, my lead actress, Joelle Rigetti, she had actually recorded an album a couple of years ago and she gave me the album during the production. She said, “Hey, anything on here you want you're welcome to use.” And I listened to it and there was one track, I went, this is perfect for this one scene I have. It's that it's the scene where the whole cast is waking up on the second day, brushing their teeth and getting ready to go out. That's actually the lead actress singing.John: The stuff you picked all really meshed well together.Lance: Oh, thank you. It was during the post-production process when it really struck me—as we were editing and doing that—how much the music adds to a production, not just a live show. I already knew that for a live show. But as I was making the film, it really just struck me again, you know, wow, music really does add a whole new dimension to the movie or live show.John: Yeah. So, where did the idea for the movie come from?Lance: Well, I'll tell you exactly where it came from. When I was a kid, there was a television series on TV called The Magician starring Bill Bixby. It only lasted one season, because the network got a new president that came in and he just, you know, cancelled all his predecessors' shows. But it actually did good in the ratings. But it only lasted 22 episodes.The magic consultant on The Magician was Mark Wilson and so when I moved out west, I met Mark Wilson, and became friends with him. Then when I was shooting Knightrider, guess who they hired to provide all of the large illusions and props for the episode? Mark Wilson. He was sort of the magic advisor on that television show. So, Mark, and I got to hang out for seven days on the set as we were shooting. He's actually in the episode. You can see shots of him. He's sitting in the audience during one of the opening performances. In fact, I get him up on stage at one point as a volunteer. So, anyway, one day after filming, Mark and I are going out to dinner and we're in his car and we're driving along. And he says to me, “Lance, how do you like doing this work?” And I said, “What do you mean, Mark? You mean like this episode?” He says, “Yeah, how do you like, you know, acting on this, this TV show?” And I said, “I'm having the time of my life. I get to do magic. I get to act. I get to work with a stuntman, and this is great.” And he says, “Well, you're doing a good job and you ought to think about doing more of this.” And I said, “More of this, so what do you mean?” He says, “You ought to start a notebook, start keeping some ideas of how you could incorporate your magic into a TV series or movie, you know, like with the Bill Bixby series.” And I thought, Oh, that's a good idea. So, I did, I started writing, every time I had an idea about how to use magic within the context of the drama series, or, you know, a story, I would write it down. So, after a few years, I had all these sort of clever things that I came up with, to use magic and propelling the story forward, or to get out of this sticky situation or whatever. And every few years, I've pulled that out, and I'd go, “You know, I'm going to try and go pitch this,” and I would go to Los Angeles and set up some meetings. And I was trying to pitch to do a series every few years and we got close a couple of times, but we never were able to sell it. But the area I was working in was so similar to things that would pop up on my TV screen later. I kept thinking, “Man, I've got something here, I just need to, like any kind of magic trick, you know, I get it in my head and it's frustrating, I just I gotta get it out, I got to put it on the stage because it's like in my brain is like scratching the inside of my skull and it's really annoying.” By that time, the technology had progressed to the point where we had these high-definition cameras that weren't, you know, astronomically expensive. And we had editing software so that somebody on their laptop could put out a professional looking product. So, I finally just said, hey, you know what, I'm gonna do this. And I called my buddy, Michael Goudeau and he came over and we fleshed out the story. And then we wrote the screenplay within, like two or three months. And then we eventually just started casting it and shot it. So, it all goes back to Bill Bixby and The Magician from 1973. John: Well, most things do. Most things do go back that. Were you always planning on directing?Lance: You know, directing and acting at the same time is really difficult. But I had been doing it all my life, you know, with my live show. And we started in on this thing and then at some point, I heard an interview with Barbra Streisand, and someone asked her that question, and they said, “Is it difficult to act and direct in the same production?” And she had a great response. She said, “No, it's easier that way. That's one less person I have to argue with.”Jim: She's right. Absolutely right. So, talk a little bit about how the movie changed, you know, from your initial script and then through shooting and editing. Were there a lot of kind of, oh, let's do this. Oh, that didn't work. Lance: I'll tell you what: when I first had the idea, I didn't have a real clear idea of the tone I wanted to take, you know? As far as it could have been a drama, it could have been a comedy or whatever. But I started chatting with my buddy, Michael Goudeau. Now, Michael worked in my show, as my special guest star. We've been friends for, you know, since the mid-80s and Michael said, this was his idea. So, I gave him credit. He said, we should write this is a family film and I said, why is that? He says, because I have two small children and about two or three times a year, I have to take them to the movies and we have to pick a family film, and they're always horrible. That's why I'd like to see a good family film. Something good, we can take the kids to see. And I said okay, that's fine. You know, that fits. Magic's always been considered a good family entertainment. So, we chose to write it as a family friendly movie, and as a comedy, but I give credit to Michael for that, and it didn't alter that much. Once we had the script completed, the idea was, you know, to keep to the script as close as we can within reason. Now, there were some scenes that were improvised and there were some things that I added during the course of the movie. I'll tell you one thing that we added: the film starts with a dream sequence, with Billy floating a lady in the air. And then he wakes up in bed and you realize, oh, that was just a dream. He doesn't really have a big Las Vegas show. He's a birthday party magician and that was the first thing we shot. So, as we were shooting, I read a book by Robert Rodriguez about his experience shooting El Mariachi. That was recommended to me by Rory Johnston, who played the bad guy in my movie. When I explained to Rory what we were going to do, he said, oh, you're doing like a no budget movie, like Robert Rodriguez. And I said, Who's Robert Rodriguez? He said, he is just a director, he started out by making this movie called El Mariachi. He had $7,000. That was it and he made a whole film. And so, I bought the DVD to watch. I wanted to see what a $7,000 movie look like. And then I read his book and he had some really interesting advice and thoughts. He was talking about the power of three—which magicians will do also—where you have a callback, or something keeps popping back up, and it happens three times. In El Mariachi, there's like this sort of dream sequence. But it happens three times. And I started thinking, he's got a really good point there. So, I started thinking, where else could I insert, I need two more dream sequences? And I've got to find a place to insert them. So, we wrote two more dream sequences and found the right place to put them. And we shot that, but that kind of happened once we started once we started shooting.Jim: You know, John, as he's mentioned, has shot some low budget movies here and there, populated largely by friends of John. And I get the sense that, in watching your movie, that these people are all your buddies, that they're all your pals, these are all your friends. Lance: Oh, yeah, they're all my friends. The only time there were people in their movie, really, that I didn't know, like extras in the restaurant. We would just ask people, do you have any friends that you can come over and be background actors? And a lot of them are my friends. Like the birthday party scene: those kids are all kids of friends. Like, hey, if you got kids, bring them over to my stage manager's house.John: It really looks like you guys are having fun throughout the whole movie. I don't mean to denigrate it in any way, but it's a really goofy movie. It is surprisingly silly in a really fun way.Lance: It's a silly movie and a lot of that stuff is Michael Goudeau. Everybody loves Michael and loves his comedy and kids especially love him. So, that's we wanted to go for. For instance, when we were writing the date scene, you know, that was a silly scene and they were doing the game with the milk, the little milk containers. And Michael said, listen, when I take my kids to a movie, when it gets to the romantic the date scene, they are bored. They are like, oh, they're falling asleep going, oh, when is this over? So, let's beef this up with something silly. Hey, great. That sounds great. So, again, a lot of that stuff was just the purpose of the movie was to keep everybody's interest.John: And that's probably something you've learned from being on stage forever, is feeling when the audience might be getting bored and being ahead of them. Lance: Yeah, you don't want to get to that point. You want to keep it moving. Jim: Your friend Michael is in the movie?Lance: Yes, he is in the movie. He's one of the jugglers. Jim: Okay. But the taller one or the shorter one?Lance: The shorter one. He was my co-writer on the screenplay and also co-executive producer.Jim: At the very end, in the credits, there's some very clever, funny, little teases about the possibility and it was sort of like, gosh, I hope there is a sequel. Is there talk of that--?John: And I will say, I'm going to speak from my podcast partner here. We're standing by ready to help you if you want to do.Jim: Absolutely. I'll drop everything. Lance: Billy Topit Part Two, The Empire Strikes Back. Billy Topit Part Two, the Search for Spock. I tell you, that was just me getting at the end of the editing process and doing the credits and it's just going out. This will be funny. Just me just making up silly stuff.John: And the image of you doing that of sitting on a computer and editing, do you have the filmmaking bug now or you going to it doesn't have to be a sequel, Billy Topit, but...Lance: I've enjoyed. Here's the thing that I enjoyed the most on the whole process was learning to edit. My good buddy Bob Massey was our photographer and our editor. But in the process of editing, I would go over to his house, and we would work on it and then he'd have to go do something. I was like, do we have to stop? And one day he said, you know, I can give you the software. I bought this and I can put it on two computers legally. So, if you want to, I'll show you how. I went, yeah. So, I went out, I bought this and I put this stuff on, and I started to learn how to edit. Bob was there to help me, show me. I really loved it. I really, really loved the process. And a lot of it is very similar to magic. I'll give you a good example of that: There's a scene at the end of the movie where they've opened the big show and I do the sawing a couple into eight pieces. So, we got the two, the boy and the girl and they get sawed apart and they come out of the boxes at the end. And the boys were in the girl's clothes and they chase each other offstage. And then they run past the camera and then the second shot, you see them run into view in the wings. And then they have a scene in the wings. Well, we shot the first part, with the doing the trick, and then running past the camera. We shot that at the Monte Carlo hotel in 2010. And the scene in the wings, we shot in 2013, on the other side of town at Rory Johnson's church that he went to. They allowed us to shoot there. So, the two scenes that are supposed to be at the same time were shot three years apart in different locations.As we were shooting the first one, I knew in my mind what I wanted to do: I wanted him to run past the camera, and then I would pick it up. And the rest of the cast hadn't even been cast yet by the way. I didn't even know who the other actors were going to be. But I knew there was a scene over there. So, as they run past, I'll pick it up. Whenever we get to that three years later, we shoot the thing. Now I'm editing it together. So, now I take the music from the first part of the shot, playing during the trick and the audience reaction. You get the audience applauding and cheering, and they run past the camera and we go to the second shot. But you still hear the audio, you still hear the music playing, and you hear me out on stage going thank you and the audience applauding. And so now when you put it all together, it's like it's seamless. No one knows that that scene was shot three years apart. It's like a magic trick. It's an illusion. There's a good example of how the sound helps enhance the illusion. And there are a few magic tricks that we do on stage where sound is a very big part of the illusion.John: I don't know at what point in the process you read Robert Rodriguez's book, but he based El Mariachi on what he had available. He wrote the script based on the town, the bar, the tortoise, the dog, all of that. You seem to have done a very similar thing, in that I'm guessing you already had some footage you on stage or was it a relatively easy thing to get. For an average person, that's a really hard thing to get.Lance: Exactly. And I had to shoot all that before the show closed, because we were getting ready to close the show. So, we captured all of that all the stuff that had to be shot in the theatre, we captured that. John: But for the average person writing a script, to write that in a scene, you can't shoot that. The lights alone in the ceiling are more than your budget.Lance: And I was well aware that. I had this opportunity that we'd written it into the script and it's like, okay, I gotta shoot this now, because if I wait another two months, it's all going to be gone.John: Exactly. And I felt the same with the scenes in the casino, which would be I think, normally a difficult thing to do. But you obviously had a relationship to make those happen.Lance: The casino scenes, those were all shot afterwards. That was my buddy, John Woodrum, who owned this little casino called the Klondike. We wanted it to be a locals type Casino. I talked to a few of the casinos and some of them were like, yeah, we'd let you come in here and shoot, we have a coffee shop. How many days do you need it? And I'm going to myself, I don't know how long this is going to take to shoot. I never shot a movie before. And then finally I went over to see my buddy, John and I said, John, I've got this movie I'm shooting, and some of the action takes place in the casino. And there's a coffee shop and you've got a coffee shop. What would you think about a shooting here? And he looks at me says yeah, whatever you want. Come on in. I'm like, what? Come on, anytime. That's like, Okay, I found this. I found our location. John: You are a low-budget filmmaker at heart. You got all the tricks that are necessary to be good at this and you did it on your first movie. That's exceptional.Lance: It was a fun process and it's not dissimilar to shooting a television special or a TV show, but it is a little different. There is obviously magic in it. But you know, there's also the whole second element of the story and doing the scene and the acting and getting all the actors on the same page.John: And speaking of the actors, I was thrilled to see our friend Louie Anderson in there. He was a Twin Cities guy who I knew back when he was here and I had the good fortune of working with him a couple times in the corporate arena. And to see Johnny Thompson obviously having so much fun, it was just great. And then to see Mac kind of turn up. I don't want to spoil it. But he does turn upLance: Mac turns up there near the end of the film. It was great fun, being able to work with Johnny. To be able to direct your mentor is a really special thing and that was just so much fun working with Johnny, and he was just so good in this role.John: He was such a good actor, he really had that ability to turn it on. Lance: And Pam too. John: Oh, yeah, Pam was in there as well. It was just so much fun to see them just pop up like that.Jim: A delight, the whole thing was from start to finish was a delight. I watched it by myself after my wife went to bed and I just was giggling through the whole thing.Lance: Thank you. Here's my favorite story from the whole process. I had this idea to do the trick on the telephone, The Wizard, that that anybody that is amateur magician knows the trick. Well, when Michael and I were coming up with a storyline, I had this idea of using The Wizard as part of the kidnapping thing, to find out where the assistant was being held. In order to do that, of course, I had to show what The Wizard was. The reason I wanted to include that was I wanted kids especially to be able to watch the movie and then after the movie, I wanted them to be able to perform The Wizard for their friends. After we had our premiere, my wardrobe lady from the Monte Carlo—and she also did wardrobe on the movie—she called me like a week later. Her stepdaughter, who was in junior high school at that time, the little girl had gone to school the next day and had performed The Wizard for her friends. And when I heard that, I was like, yes, touchdown.John: Mission accomplished. Lance: Mission accomplished. It's exactly what I wanted. I wanted kids to go and actually perform a magic trick for their friends.Jim: But I really liked how you then turn it around and use it as a plot device. Lance: It's integral to the story. Yes, and those are those are especially the kind of things I like with magic in movies or TV shows: where you can take something and bring it back in later as a practical device.

Overview Jim is one half of the Flinch publishing duo and joins us today to talk about their newest anthology - a western title Six Gun Legends. We also discuss his Sgt Janus books and connection to Carnacki, Kolchak and X-files. With the upcoming Pulpfest, JIm tells us more about that show and what he and partner, John Bruening, have planned. Book Favorites YouTube https://youtu.be/p5j-5WSaflc Transcript Stephen: so today on Discover Wordsmith, I wanna welcome the great Jim Beard, who is the better duo, better half of the duo of Flinch Publishing. That's what I hear at least Jim? Oh, Jim: wow. Okay. This is starting off on the wrong foot already. Now. I can never talk to John again. My partner, my publishing partner. Wow. Okay. Stephen: We'll just not tell John you're on here, and then we'll, okay. Yeah. This Jim: is just between you and me. Nobody else is gonna hear Stephen: this. Nobody at all. Jim: Wow. Wow. Yeah, he's, he's already, supremely jealous of me, so now it's just gonna be worse. Nice. Stephen: Jim tell everybody a little bit about yourself to give an intro here. Okay. I Jim: am a a writer, editor, and publisher of adventure Fiction. And pop culture nonfiction. And then I also whenever I can, I will write licensed fiction too. I don't do as much of that as I would I would like to. But so I wear several hats and do a lot of different things. And I actually have two small press self-publishing firms, and we already mentioned the one. So that's flinch books with John Bruning of Cleveland, Ohio who will never speak to me again. Thank you. Oh, Stephen: I'm sorry. I just broke the band up. Jim: And and then Becky books which is just me. Stephen: And actually you mentioned the license stuff. That was the first time I met you. It was actually years ago at pioneer Village down mid Ohio. Yeah you had a little table like set up behind the mill. Yeah. In the middle of nowhere. It was like nobody was around you. Yeah. It Jim: was a card Stephen: table. Yes. And I had found out that you wrote a story for one of the Star Wars comic books I had, and I had that brought it down to have you sign. Yeah. Jim: You're reminding me that we only see each other at bigfoot shows. Yes. Stephen: Yeah. Which is funny because about it, it's this for sure. And that's kind funny because that's not your main thing up until now you. Jim: That's, that's interesting because I have been utterly fascinated and in love with Cryptids, all my life from when I was, a little kid and and just want to be around that kind stuff. But I chose to do that because I do have a lot of like monster or supernatural related things and I've that kicked it off for me. I've actually started doing some crypted shows now and finding out that I do very well at them. That the people really seem to spark. When, when I bring Cold Check the Night Stalker or Love it, I don't have, I can't get it anymore. I used to have an in the X-Files book, but unfortunately I can't get copies of that. I, Stephen: I've got that. Yeah I got a Jim: copy from you. And I was just, before we started recording here, I was just telling you that this lasted show that I was at, which I. Surprise, surprise that I got the idea that I'm finally going to do an actual Bigfoot book. Yeah, that'd be great. I actually can, hold that up when I'm at these shows and say, look, I have a Bigfoot book. It's not just it's Bigfoot. Stephen: Yeah, I saw you asking for stories in that and I got excited 'cause I love reading that stuff. I actually thought of replying one, but I'm like, nah, I don't wanna mix it with asking you to be on the podcast and applying to the book. I don't wanna feel, I'm mad. That's okay. Yeah. But I don't think I was ready for it, listen, I Jim: mean, honestly, if this first one does well, I will certainly, want to do other another in fact, I had to,

Dr. Jim Herbert, Professor of Counselor Education and Rehabilitation and Human Services at Penn State, is back in the studio today. In this second part of a two-part series, Jim discusses the retention challenges identified in his study- Recruitment and Retention of State Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors: A Mixed Methods Analysis.   Please listen in as Carol and Jim continue to unpack this study and have a frank discussion about the significant challenges and possible solutions you can apply to your situation.   Be sure to check out the Recruitment side of the study by Dr. Jim Herbert in the previous episode of Manager Minute.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me back in the studio today is Dr. Jim Herbert, professor of counselor, education and Rehabilitation and Human services at Penn State. Now we're going to discuss the second part of his study, recruitment and retention of state vocational rehabilitation counselors, a mixed methods analysis. And I'm super happy to have you back with me today. Jim, how's it going?   Jim: It's going well and I'm excited to be with you this morning with the podcast and appreciate the opportunity to kind of build on some of the information that we talked about in the earlier one.   Carol: Absolutely. I'm super excited. And for our listeners out there that did not get to listen to the first part of this podcast in June. Please do go back and look in the archives and you can listen to that so you get the full picture because Jim really painted a great foundational piece on the study that he had done, and we focused on one half of his work. And now today we're going to focus on the other half because there's a lot of really good information to unpack. So as I had said, you know, this is a second part of our two part conversation. We're going to focus on the retention aspects of your study today. And just to set the stage for our listeners again who maybe did not listen last month. I first met you through the CSAVR Operations and Personnel Committee, and I used to co-chair the old HRD committee that was evolved into the new Operations and Personnel Committee. But I did that with Cynthia Speight, and I continued to participate after I entered into this TA world. And Cynthia and I had been interested in this recruitment retention topic going back at least eight years. We were doing some different surveys with our states to see what was happening, and we just saw this shrinkage of people entering the field, the reduction in universities offering a master's in rehab counseling and knew back then even like we've got to do something. So I was really pleased to see your work and you had come to the committee to collaborate on this study that you were doing that was supported in part by the National Institute on Disability, Independent Living and Rehab Research, which is NIDILRR. And in the executive summary, you noted there had been this consistent shortage of qualified rehab counselors employed by the state federal VR program for several decades. I guess you know, some of us were thinking, Gosh, this has really been like the last ten years. Uh, this is actually been going on for a while. But the Covid 19 pandemic, I think, exacerbated the shortage. And so today we're going to look at this again, the retention aspects of your study. So let's dig in. And I do want to go over a few things in case our listeners, you know, didn't have a chance to hear you last time. So, Jim, can you just tell them again a little bit about yourself and how long you've been in academia and how did you get there?   Jim: Okay, so I'm an old guy. I've been here, as I kind of explained in the first podcast, I'll just kind of abbreviate. Yeah, I've been an academic for about 37 years and prior to that I worked as a work adjustment counselor and job placement specialist research specialist. So I've been around and as I explained in the initial podcast, like many of you, I became interested in rehabilitation as a result of having a family member with a disability and then started doing some volunteer work. Absolutely loved the field and I loved doing Voc Rehab because I could see kind of the difference that that you can make and you can impact on improving the quality of life for people with disabilities. So if you want to read more about my background, you have nothing to do and you have trouble sleeping at night. You can just look me up at the Penn State and within two minutes I'm sure you'll be falling asleep after reading my bio. So that's the deal.   Carol: I love it. I love it. So many of us did that, though. We kind of fell into it. I fell into it with my mom used to be the volunteer corridor coordinator at the state hospital in Faribault where I grew up. So she used to bring me up to the Pink Ladies canteen where they had donuts and treats and things that the residents of the campus could come in. And I remember being five and on campus and working with all these people with developmental disabilities and other disabilities and just got super interested in the work kind of through her and having people over to our house for Thanksgiving and Christmases and different holidays. It was super fun and I just grew up in that. And so that is the same case with many of our listeners, I'm sure. So last month we talked about the first part of your study. Today we're going to get into the retention aspect. So let's talk about the retention challenges that you identified in the study. So what are those top challenges VR is facing?   Jim: Yeah, so part of our study, what we did, the first part, we basically interviewed state directors. We had them complete an online survey, but then we did about 20 interviews to sort of unpack. A little bit more. And basically we identified and I'm not sure to be frank, if this part is going to be new information for your readers or for the listeners. But it sets up what I want to talk about how do we address these problems of retention? So when we look at why are counselors leaving? Okay, well, the first thing I'm sure your listeners like no surprise on this one. Low salaries, big number one problem graduates coming out of programs now realize and also people are currently working in the field realizing I think in essence kind of the power really that they have. And I think this is sort of a nationwide thing. People are starting to realize, I've got choice, I have options and I want to exercise those. And so we've got to understand that and be receptive to that. So low salaries and we'll talk about, well, what can we do about that aspect? But just for introductory purposes, that's a big, big reason we're losing people to the Veterans Administration. We're losing them to community mental health programs, we're losing them to universities and colleges such as like the disability support services or even sometimes a career placement services. I know former alum from our program here at Penn State who've been in the state system for a long time and left to work at university settings such as disability services or career development. You know, the issue with that is, of course, when you think about the investment with the RSA training program coupled with the two years post-graduation that they have to use for the payback, well, that's a tremendous amount of investment that we've made in unfortunately we're losing them because after they do their two year payback, they're saying there's some other opportunities. Another big problem, and this is particularly true, I think, of the newer graduates, one of the things we know from research is that many counselors, what they do not enjoy is the amount of paperwork process information that's involved with the job data entry, documentation that's involved with that. And I've heard a number of students will say, I didn't get a master's degree in counseling to sit in front of a computer and enter data. I recognize that's a part of the job, I recognize there's information that needs to be recorded. But for the Gen Z and the millennials in particular, they want to work with clients directly. They want to have that client contact. They enjoy working with people. That's a lot different from interacting on a screen or processing paperwork in that way. So while data management, that's a critical part of the job, we've got to think of some other ways of how can we work with particularly the graduate trained personnel, more efficiently and more effectively in a way that benefits the whole mission of the program? That's a big reason why people are leaving. Another problem kind of related to that caseloads. And while it's different, I think with specialized caseloads such as people who work with persons who are visual impairments, vision loss, blindness, hearing deafness, while their caseloads are lower counselors with general caseloads, it's not unheard to have caseloads of around 200. I mean, that's. So how do you develop an effective working relationship when you have to interact with 200 people? The answer is you can't or it's difficult. So I mentioned these three problems because I think it provides a context for what are we going to do about that? How do we address those kinds of things that are underlying? So that's what we're going to be kind of diving into today.   Carol: Yeah, I agree. I appreciate you setting that backdrop because those are all things as I was reading the study, I'm like, Oh, absolutely. And I keep thinking if folks are continuing to be organized the way they were pre-wioa as far as staffing and structure and roles and responsibilities, man, you really need to rethink that because there are opportunities and I think we'll get into this. There's a lot of cool stuff folks can be looking at doing now differently. We talked about this in the first podcast, you know, about, well, we've always done it that way and I think in VR we can tend to fall into that trap. And you forget like, Hey, we are inventive, creative people. We have got to approach this in a different way. So let's talk about that. Let's get into what are some of the retention strategies I know the state vocal rehab directors believe would contribute to retention. There were a number of things that you had in the study I thought were pretty cool. So let's unpack some of those.   Jim: All right. Well, let's tackle the big problem, the salary issue. And we've mentioned this a little bit in the earlier last month's podcast, but we've got to take a look at what is the salary structure. Okay. And are there ways that we can adjust that And just in terms of wages or benefits. Now, the first thing is, no, we can't. It's too difficult. It's, you know, it's really about. That's true. But at the same time, I know from talking with directors and to come to mind, Kentucky and North Carolina, where there are states, Maryland, I think we mentioned in the earlier podcast that have been effective in getting better pay, more equitable pay for counselors. Now, again, I think as we mentioned, I think actually, Carol, you mentioned this, you know, this isn't something like, okay, well, next week we're going to start that. No, this takes literally years to do because of the political influences. You know, like who are the secretaries of state and the governors, and is there support to do that And yes or no? And how do you build the case? So building that case of, you know, hey, we're losing people when we look at our salaries compared to rehab counselors in the Veterans Administration, compared to mental health counselors, compared to other comparable professions, let's look at what the data. So, you know, you don't need to be a genius to kind of figure out this job is going to pay $20,000 more for what I think is essentially the same job. And so it's like we've got to take a look at this because the thing is, you know, just kind of throw your hands up and say, well, we can't do anything about that. Well, I'm not sure about that. But I do know this, that to institute any kind of change, we have to have some sort of rationale and data to support why do we absolutely need to do that? And we'll talk about this aspect a little bit later. But part of the data collection also, and this is a tool that we have available but very few states use it, is when we conduct those exit interviews with people that they're leaving. And you ask, well, why are you leaving? I'd be willing to bet based on my understanding of either people I know that have left the agency or what I've seen in the review of the literature. These testimonials, I think are really critical and say over the last three years we've lost 50 counselors. We asked them, Why are you leaving? 85% is because of low salary. That's important data. Okay. And that's just not something that hey, wouldn't it be nice? But I can't think in terms of any kind of real data, anything more important than those kinds of testimonials. But the problem is that most states don't use exit interviews or if they conduct them, frankly, I don't think they do a good job or even if they do a good job the problem is the data doesn't always get communicated back to the state director. So here in Pennsylvania, anybody works for labor, Labor and industry. Well, that's just not VR counselors. That's a whole other group of professionals that get kind of lumped in together. And so those are kind of some important data that we need to start monitoring. We need to build a case we just can't keep kind of poor me, blah, blah, What are the data? And then ultimately how is that impacted? And I think those kinds of things are really important.   Carol: I agree 100%. I know as I have talked to different directors across the country, you mentioned Kentucky. Absolutely. Core McNabb talked to her. She's done some things, really big, impactful things with this. Scott Dennis, as we talked about, I know Brett McNeil right now in Florida has a big initiative that's taken several years, started before him, but and he's a newer director in but continued that fight. And I'm hoping fingers crossed that he's able to get that through the legislative session this year to get those increases for his folks. But for our listeners, I know some of you are thinking like, well, it's daunting. Like this is a terrible task. You've got to do all of this work. It's going to take all these years. But if you never start, you're never going to finish. If you never build the case, you never collect the data, you don't go after this. Three years from now, we're going to be talking about the same problem and you've done nothing towards it. And so I just really encourage people like you have to start this is so critical. This is a fundamental issue for your agency that pay piece. You need to work on it. And that's where you have to build your relationships. You got to look at any coalitions that you can engage in. You want to reach out to those other directors that have been successful to find out what they've done. Jane Donellen in Idaho General, she's done some interesting things around this as well. You want to talk to those other people, reach out to your CSAVR colleagues and say like, Hey, how you do that? I know every state is set up differently and you have your own civil service rules in your state. But by and large, doing something like this, what you said, Jim, you get to build the case. And so I don't care what state you're in, you're always going to want to come in with your data. Here it is. And you present it because you may be thinking that HR is like looking out for you. But think about it. HR has had these huge turnovers and staff to they don't know what's going on. You know your story, they don't know it. You're one of a whole bunch of books of business in that state. You've got you. If you're in a labor agency, you've got all these other programs, unemployment insurance, they'll remember that was kind of having problems. You're the one living with it every day. So if you can paint that picture, that helps them because I know there's always a method for doing this within the state. It may be a little daunting, but if you don't start I mean, I'm kind of on my soapbox right now, but if you never start, you're never going to get there.   Jim: You're absolutely spot on. And I would agree with that. One of the things I'll ask my students when we talk about problems and problem resolution and those things is the issue of control. And one of the things I'll ask is, what is it? Because there's so many things we can't control, but what is it that we can control? And I think that's a question that you're asking. And then also, too, is the perception because you think, oh, well, we can't. And it's like, well, maybe we can, but the first thing we've got to collect the information to support the case. So related to that kind of issue of control, and I'm going to spoiler alert to your listeners, I'm going to probably say a few things that might be a little bit controversial. No surprise there. But kind of related to that and this is going to be hard, I know, is the question of how are we conceiving of this job. You know, I said earlier that the millennials and Gen Z in particular, they didn't come in to be a rehab counselor to six out of eight hours of the day in front of a computer and data entry that doesn't light it up for them. And so one of the things we know from a number of studies of graduates, they're saying to us, we want opportunities that are going to give us greater client access. So I got into this because I like working with people. You know, I enjoy that interaction. I love that part of the job. And so what some states are doing and a couple come to mind, North Carolina General, Tennessee, they're saying, okay, how can we reduce the administrative data entry task? Is there a way that we can maybe allocate those aspects to maybe someone that you don't necessarily have to have a master's degree to do that? And we know that, Carol, you know this you know, a number of states now are kind of rethinking this baccalaureate position. Maybe there are opportunities at the introductory level, if you will, professional level that require a baccalaureate degree. So the thinking, of course, being if we can assign those tasks to and sometimes states use different titles, sometimes you'll hear the term counselor, aide paraprofessional, which personally I don't like that because I think at the Baccalaureate you're a professional. I think to me it kind of denigrates that. But the point is the intent here is like, okay, can I have someone's going to help me with the case management functions aspect, the documentation that I might now be able to spend more time with clients. The other thing too, that we learned I found this was interesting New Hampshire developed kind of a pilot project with I think this is I think was a University of Wisconsin Stout. I believe if it's wrong, my apologies to the other university who did, but I think it was with Stout in helping them in the decision making process of eligibility determinations. So they would outsource this to UW stout personnel who then review the case. Now, they didn't make the I want to be clear on this. They didn't make the determination. They made maybe a recommendation for that. The counselor makes the final determination, but was interesting. I believe that by doing that, New Hampshire was saying that saved about 30% of time that a counselor might have to allocate for that, that now that if we outsource that, that allowed them to have greater contact. So that's another thing.   Carol: Yeah. So it's funny you bring that up, Jim. So I'm actually doing a podcast in August with and this really started in Wisconsin. Wisconsin was the spearhead of this and New Hampshire jumped onto it with the Stout doing that. So my August podcast is going to be focused on how Wisconsin created this project with Stout. And we're going to talk about how they did it, because now more and more states I still remember when Wisconsin brought this up back at CSAVR, you know, probably four years ago, and everybody was kind of like, huh, Like, oh, that's interesting. Or why did you do that? Well, now everybody's going, Hey, I want to know more about that. And Lisa Hinson Hatz in New Hampshire. She dug into that to going, Hey, we need help out here. And that's where I was saying earlier, if you're organized in the same way you were pre WIOA stop it. Like you need to think about this because there's a lot of things that fundamentally have changed. And I love what you said about can you use other positions that are maybe more of the case manager of that case and doing all that chasing around? Can you use technology solutions? I did a podcast with our friends from Alaska in March on SARA with a semi-automated rehab assistant. You know, you're chasing down these MSGs and I need your transcript and all of that. Are you looking at other solutions? Friends that can help to automate maybe some of this that your staff are currently doing. I just think to look wide.   Jim: Absolutely. And I think that is again, kind of like, is there another way that we could do this? And I think we talked about this a little bit earlier. Sometimes we fall in the trap. Well, we've always done it this way. Well is it working well. If it's not working, that says we have to change that. So increasing the time again, either through technology or perhaps the creation of and I'll talk about this a little bit later, different levels in terms of a career ladder. Another thing and again and this is it's particularly problematic because when you don't have enough counselors, typically what happens then? The supervisor fills in, the counselor leaves. Now the supervisor or it gets redistributed to other counselors so their caseloads increase. And then here's some academic telling your audience that, well, you got to reduce caseload size. So, yes, I live in the ivory tower. Okay. But let me just say this again. These problems are interdependent and the solutions are interdependent. You can't implement one because we'll have about ten or so that we're going to go through. You can't implement one and think, oh, that's going to solve it. It's not. It's a combination of confluence of all of these that will change, if you will, in terms of the retention aspect. So reducing caseload size, you know, next to salary. The other thing, too, you if you talk with counselors, what is it that they have too many clients and we talked in the earlier podcast, again, while there's some specialized caseloads may be different 30 to 50 clients, other generalized caseloads, they could be 150, 200 clients. So it's difficult to believe that you can have any kind of effective working relationship with that size. And the other thing I'll just mention, it's interesting because when you look at what factors predict who's going to have a successful rehab outcome, when you look at the literature, basically what you find is that a significant contributor is the relationship. There's that word again, the relationship between the client and the counselor. I know we use the term customer. I'm kind of old school. We don't get into that. But anyway, I still use the term client. The point being is when you have an effective working relationship, you have better outcomes. And so it only makes sense then, well, you know how many of you, when you go to your physicians appointment, you get in a rush, you know, two minutes, and then you come at a physician that actually spends 30 minutes with you, you know, like, Wow, this is so good. They feel like they took time to know what my problems are, what the issue is, what's kind of going on. The person that spends too, like, look, I don't you know, I'm overworked, I'm underpaid, I don't have time for this. Those messages get communicated. Clients are pretty savvy and picking that up. I don't think we give them enough credit for that. So part of that is when we were talking about providing more access to clients and developing that relationship, but also reducing the client caseload size. So related to that, we have to think about again, maybe modifying some of those caseload practices. So when we talk about grief, thinking how the job is done, again, maybe there's some components that we could institute that might allow greater access. So I think it was Iowa for the Blind that had a specialist that maybe would assist the counselor. I think the same thing like in Indiana, a case coordinator. So maybe there's specific roles that other people might do, particularly at the baccalaureate level, to maybe determine or help determine eligibility and help with the caseload aspect. So by implementing that in conjunction with that reduction, again, I think is going to contribute to successful outcomes. And the only other thing I'll just mention, I remember one director that made this statement. It's always interesting to me, like Carol, you're talking about in Maryland and Florida and other states, do they have some sort of secret sauce, some magic thing? You know, what did they do? The question that comes up is like, well, if it can be successfully implemented in one state, can we duplicate it in my state? So what is it that we can do with that?   Carol: One of the things I've learned some years ago that Joe started this Joe Xavier out in California was implementing this team model concept. And so the counselors like the orchestrator of the team, but you have a lot of people that surround an individual as they're going through their VR journey. You know, you have placement people that are working with them. You know, your business specialist could be in a blind agency. You might have an assistive technology specialist and you've got your rehab tech and all these different folks. And so we borrowed from California when I was in Minnesota to leverage all the people on the team so that that client could feel supported, even as counselors are working with lots of people. But it could be that the case aide is talking to them. It's your AssistiveTechnology Specialist is talking to them, your business specialist. So they feel surrounded by this team of people that are ultimately supporting the counselor and the customer and getting this employment goal accomplished. So taking a look at leveraging all your resources, because as you say, when you tell me like 200 people on a caseload, I'm like, that is too many. Think about how many days there are in a year and how many days a person works and you have 200 people. You're trying to keep this relationship going. If you can leverage the support of your team members too. So the person is feeling like people are reaching out and they're contacting them and they're in touch, it will lend to a better outcome.   Jim: I'm glad you kind of amplified that a little bit because it lends itself to the next point is when you think of the career ladder structure that exists in old VR, we kind of have that one counselor, one client kind of model. And what you're talking about is more a systemic approach. And recall that I think it was in Indiana where they had I think it was Indiana. If it wasn't, then my mistake. But anyway, I think they have what was called kind of a work project group. And so you had staff that collectively worked together. So when it talks about a particular client, so you had multiple people. So now in their work group, as I recall, they might have like an individual who might be the eligibility determination counselor. And then other people worked as caseload counselors and others work more in terms I'm going to use the term therapeutic counselor relationship aspects. And my recollection from talking with the director there was when they looked at that approach, what they found was that actually the time spent in eligibility that was reduced. So it's like we're providing more effective service, more timely services and the benefit in terms of the counselors, in terms of their training, that also was kind of reduced because they're kind of specializing on this aspect of the job. So part of that is thinking about, well, maybe we have to think things a little bit more systemically. The other thing is when we look at the career ladder structure, this is all over the place because you have states that basically have like level one, level two counselors and some there's three or some four or some five and that's all as a function of how many years that you've been with the agency, whether or not you have a graduate degree, whether or not you're a CRC, all of those things contribute. So one of the things that you have to think about, is there a way that we can kind of build in a little bit more? Because again, basically you kind of go from a counselor to a supervisor and most counselors, at least that I've found, they're not clamoring necessarily to be a supervisor. That's not an easy job. In fact, much of my research and I do a lot of training on clinical supervision for state rehab agencies. And I can tell you, I know firsthand I've been doing this for 20 years. That I think is the most difficult job in State VR, is to be a counselor, a supervisor or a manager. So that being said, it was interesting. I think it was Missouri when they looked at when counselors are leaving, what they had found was that their counselors were their most susceptible were counselors that had been with the agencies 4 to 6 years. Looking at that, one of the actions that they took was, well, maybe what we need to do is try to build in some sort of other kind of a counselor level creating another level so we can retain those because it's bad when you lose anybody. But those are the people that have gained the experience. They've got something to contribute and now they're the ones you can least afford to lose. So they created something specifically for that career ladder to address that problem.   Carol: Absolutely 100%. I have loved it because we've had a number of states reach out to us as we've been doing this recruitment retention pilot through the VRTACQM and other people have been like, Can you help us a little bit? Look at these career ladders for our staff? Because some folks I didn't realize how many states are just sort of flat. You have your counselor come in and then like you said, then you're the supervisor and not everybody wants to go into management of any sort. There's a lot of people that like that individual contributor, but they want to grow that role. And when you look at those people, as you talked about with that vast experience, if you can create more of that team lead or a counselor lead or a senior counselor or whatever, they can take on mentorship of the new people coming in, they're the go to person for those really difficult cases is your problem solving. And they love it because they thrive in that space. And so we have been successful. I know we worked with South Carolina Blind and them instituting some levels in their system. That was really fun work to do and helping folks just think again, like, let's not be organized the way we were pre WIOA. We need to look at this differently.   Jim: Absolutely. And, you know, and I think the other thing, too, Carol, is, again, maybe you can invite me back for a third time. I don't know. Clinical supervision. But and that's exactly the problem because, yeah, a lot of counselors don't want to be the supervisor, the manager. So when you think in terms of the career, it's like, well, you're a counselor and you go right to the supervisor. Is there a way that we could structure so you can also when we think of career ladder, we can do kind of hierarchical, you know, typical, but also we can do kind of across horizontally. And again, I've seen some states that will create kind of a specialist, a job placement specialist or the eligibility determination. There may be some ways that we can kind of create because there are some counselors will say, actually, I love doing the intakes, I love doing the eligibility. I'm not so keen about the paperwork on that aspect. Others will like the job development, The job placement will go getting out, working with the employer. So everybody's different. So the question is how do we tap into that individual strength that the counselor provides and then match it? Basically what we're doing like the same principles of rehab that ostensibly we do with clients is that, well, maybe we should be doing it with our own agency and our own folks, which I know to varying degrees we do. Moving on, because I know I'm cognizant of the time and I'm looking like, oh my Lord, my list. But just very quickly, another thing is how well do we promote within the agency? How many times have we worked with clients? When you think like, well, you know, actually this person would be a really good rehab counselor. Now I know that we do that, but that's something again, you know, just kind of think about, you know, in doing that. But let me get to some other things that maybe we don't do as often and might be a little bit more controversial for some folks. It's always amazing to me how we promote rehabilitation principles and practices for our clients in other employment settings, but how well do we do it in our own settings? So let's unpack that a little bit. Now, one thing that the pandemic has done is if we were to have a room of 100 counselors and supervisors and directors and mixture sampling, let's say we met five years ago and say, okay, well, here's the deal, folks. We're going to move to. Everybody can kind of work at home and we're going to allow you to basically do all that. And in terms of the work schedule, yes, you have to put 37.5 hours. But if you want to do that on your weekends or you want to do that at night, you can do that, like, what are you smoking? It ain't happening. And yet with the pandemic suddenly now we've rethought. And this reminds me of the old way back when, when Henry Ford was building cars and said, Hey, we're going to move from that six day, ten hour work week to a five day, eight hour. People like you can't do that. It's impossible. Yeah. And look what happened? Production. And so we're operating with historic principles that may not be in the best interest for the current worker. And change is hard. Again, particularly, I think as a baby boomer, it's like, well, we've always done it this way. It worked. Then why can it work now? Well, maybe, maybe not. So the big recommendation or a recommendation is we have to offer greater work, flexibility, telework, flexible schedules, job sharing. Interesting enough. And I'm not going to call out any particular states, although I do know particular states. But what I see, and be honest with you, is a little troubling. It's like, well, we're going to go back to where it was before, really. And I'm just kind of wondering, how is that going to work? I'm not really seeing that. It's sort of like you opened up the box. Oh, wow. There's something really nice here that I like. Okay, let's cover it back up. I just don't see that working.   Carol: It's not working. So I know a couple of those states where now we're post pandemic and the governor of the state is like, Oh, everybody's going to come back into the office. You're all coming in five days a week, 100% of the time, and it's killing them. They are losing staff by the droves. It has been an absolute nightmare. I'm not understanding the thinking behind that because it is literally killing them.   Jim: Here's the other thing, too, and this is where, again, we talked about the importance of data collection earlier. There are studies in the business world I haven't seen too many, and there may be some that I'm just not aware of. But studies have said, well, let's look at the impact of offering this kind of what does this do? How does this change in terms of our numbers? The bottom line status 26, it's like, well, have we witnessed a significant drop off of that? And is that attributable because of offering counselors options? I would contend and I'll talk more about what I refer to as the big enchilada. I'll save that to the end. I would contend that giving people greater choice, I think, helps in terms of kind of their morale gives them more control, particularly single parents managing children, you know, and also when you think it mirrors the life that our clients I mean, people can't take off. Necessarily between your 8:30 to 4:30 day, I may have availability at night or maybe on the weekends. So offering workers, not just telework, because I think that's pretty common, although as you say and I would agree, I know states are kind of like, let's go back to the way it was, but also in terms of offering flexible schedules, it's like, where's it written that it has to be 8:30 to 4:30? And I know a number of states all have like four day work weeks or ten hours a day. But then again, here's one of these rehab principles. We talk about job sharing. Do we do any job sharing in rehab counseling, practice? Do we do? How does that. So again, it's something we espouse for our clients, but we don't necessarily how do we practice that in our own offices? That's something that we need to do. Related to that is and again, this might be a little bit controversial is allowing people to work part time. Now, again, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, we can't do that. Or if we do that, it's only under kind of medical reasons. So if someone has a medical issue and they're trying to get back to work, I guess my question is, would you rather lose a counselor 100% of the time? Or would you rather have somebody rather than a complete loss that they're working half time Now? I'm not saying that we should all move to half, but I'm saying allow counselors choice. If there's one thing that's clear, and I think this is what you were alluding to, Carol, People want choice and people I think the thing is, they understand for probably the first time in a long time that I've got choice in the workplace. Okay. So allowing them to work part time.   Carol: I love that one, Jim, because especially when you think about your retirees, you know, you and I are in that age.   Jim: Some might say I should have already been retired. Yeah, Well, and you go, okay, so you know, a lot of times folks are looking at retirement and it's an all or nothing thing. You know, you're working full time, 100%, and then you go to nothing. There's a lot of people that want that staged piece of it. So you take a look at some of your longer term counselors. Sure, they want to retire, but they wouldn't mind helping out work in part time like that would be good for them. And they could still get some benefits and some things and work 20 hours a week. And especially given you can do things with telework and different things that can keep you going like versus having nobody there. And then you're adding on caseload to other people. You keep a person that understands your system, but they're just willing to do it at a reduced rate. And again, it's one of those things like, does it hurt to ask HR like in your practices? So because the state has never done it before doesn't mean they can't. And you are not the only industry isn't the only industry facing that same issue. It's all of state employment. So people are starting to look at things very differently where they may not have done that even five years ago. So again, using your words and at least asking if you could do it, absolutely. Again, they kind of phased in retirement part time. Yeah, because especially the older worker, I mean, all that history there, the people that when you have a staff meeting and a new person comes on hey, let's try such and such. And that's the person that says, Yep, we did that in about 20 years ago. We tried that. Okay. We talked a little bit about exit interviews. Some states, One of the things that they're doing and you've mentioned this several times, ask if you don't know, ask another thing states are starting is the use of stay or exit interviews. So have kind of open ended discussions with your employees about why do you stay here? And then those that are leaving, what are some of the factors that are contributing to your leaving? So having like Kentucky did this kind of open ended listening tour, which was kind of really cool. So talk to your counselors, try to understand like, what are those issues? It might be that, for example, maybe you as the state, the district administrator, rather than that person conducting the interview, maybe someone outside. So because there's questions or concerns about who's asking the questions or those kinds of things. So let me talk about some other strategies that necessarily maybe weren't mentioned by state directors, but our research team have come up with and then our work with the Operations Personnel Committee, with CSAVR. So, we talked about part time options and Carol, actually you mentioned about phased retirement. Again, if you know someone that's going to leave in a year or two, maybe we can kind of phase that in doing kind of a part time. The use of affinity groups that can also be important to enhance career longevity. Affinity groups usually are groups that are created where people share a common characteristic, a common concern. So they might have people that share in terms of maybe disability aspects age, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, where there are common interests, common identities, common kinds of experiences. And. What we know from research in the business world is that affinity groups often can contribute to employee well-being and also reduce workplace stress. And I talk a little bit more of this in the Journal of Rehab article that was just published the other month. So if you want to learn more about that, let me get to the big enchilada, though, while we have a few minutes left. Okay, I know like what I'm about to say may be heresy, but remember that Henry Ford history note? Okay, This is for states that boy, you know, that salary, that all sounds good. It'll take years. But, you know, who knows? And I said to you, well, think about what is it that you can control? So getting salary adjustments may be really kind of difficult. Here's a question I have for you. Where is it written that? Is it possible that rather this sort of five day, 40 hour work schedule, we could go to a four day, 32 hour work schedule? Here's the kicker. At the same pay as the 40 hour work week, if I was with some of the listeners, was like, Oh man, this guy is really kind of gone off.   Carol: They're having a heart attack right now.   Jim: Suddenly everybody just clicked off on the podcast. They just Bloop. That's it. Well, as I mentioned, while there's certain states Kentucky, North Carolina, Florida, Maryland that may have successfully negotiated pay raises, a lot of states it's more difficult. And so the question is, can we create a full time at the same pay for 32 hours? Now, it's interesting. I'd love to work with states who want to implement or think about that. I've heard through the grapevine there may be 1 or 2 that are seriously thinking about this, but I know in the business world, when you look at the evidence of a shorter workweek, while it is mixed, but at least the studies that I've seen, some of the benefits, one of is, is that greater, higher employee retainment, they also have a better work family balance. You know, my wife and I, we have a son who's 26. He's a hard worker. But his view of what's important in life and my view, it's different. So like, why work was everything. Work is important. But he said, Hey, dad, there's more important things to or just my social life, my love life, my recreational life. I want a better quality of life. I want to have a better work family balance. And so when you look at some of the literature, what you see is there are a lot of benefits. So my point is, before you just sort of offhand like, no, that won't work. Think about and start informing. Start looking at, well, what is the literature say about that? So I think working toward that four day, 32 hour, I could be wrong. But I really think and again, state federal government usually are not the leaders to this, usually the kind of the last to react. But I'd be willing to predict that within 5 to 10 years that's going to be happening. And if states start doing kind of pilot studies looking at the impact on that and if they find like, wow, there are ways that we can kind of reduce it because, sure, we waste time. We don't always kind of eight hours every minute we're doing working. But the point is that I think is a proposal worthy of discussion that needs to be had.   Carol: Well, Jim, appreciate you leaving us with the big enchilada for sure. I'm sure folks are going, holy cow. But I know there's been a number of articles done on this and research done on this. I believe it was over even in the UK where they were taking a look at the 32 hour workweek. So it is definitely food for thought. I did want to wrap up and let our listeners know that at VRTAC-QM.org we have recruitment and retention strategies and ideas listed, many of which come from Dr. Herbert's research as well as what your colleagues are doing across the country. So I invite you to go to our website. Probably the easiest way is in the search box. Just go human resources and it'll take you right to that piece of it. But we have a lot of great strategies that folks have implemented with their examples and how they've built the case and done different things. So that could be of help to you as you're on your journey. So Jim, thanks again. I really appreciate having you on. Your work has been super interesting and I look forward to more things that you're doing in this area. So have a great day.   Jim: Thanks, Carol. Appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Dr. Jim Herbert, Professor of Counselor Education and Rehabilitation and Human Services at Penn State, joins us in the studio today. In this first part of a two-part series, Jim discusses the recruitment challenges identified in his study- Recruitment and Retention of State Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors: A Mixed Methods Analysis.   Please listen in as Carol and Jim unpack this study and discuss the four significant challenges and possible solutions you can apply to your situation.   Stay tuned as the focus shifts to the retention side of the study by Dr. Jim Herbert in the next episode of Manager Minute.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute Doctor Jim Herbert, Professor of Counselor, Education and Rehabilitation and Human Services at Penn State, is joining me in the studio today to discuss his recently released study, Recruitment and Retention of State Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors, A Mixed Methods Analysis. I am so happy to have you here today. How are things going in Pennsylvania?   Jim: Well, first off, I'm happy to be had and things are going very well in Pennsylvania. It's a beautiful summer day and the nice thing is that many academician might appreciate it. While we love students, summer session, they're not here, which means you can get parking spaces downtown, lots of restaurants. You don't have to wait a long time to get in. So it's a good time and good place to be in State College, Pennsylvania.   Carol: Oh, that's awesome. Say, are you getting any of that wildfire smoke from Canada?   Jim: You know, it's funny you say that because we just got an alert that indicated like over the next couple of days, Yeah, it's going to be coming this way.   Carol: Yeah, we definitely got hit with it the last two days. And I saw it moving off to the East Coast, looked like the apocalypse here. It was very, very weird. So to set the stage for our listeners, I first met you through the CSVAR Operations and Personnel Committee, and I used to co-chair the old version of that committee. It was called The old HRD with Cynthia Speight, and I continued to participate in it when I entered the TA world. And so back in the day, Cynthia and I were super interested in recruitment, retention issues of counselors. And I'm talking like, this is probably like eight years ago now. And we had done several surveys with state agencies to kind of gauge where they were at with getting new counselors. And we kept seeing this shrinkage of people entering the field and the reduction in universities offering a master's in rehab counseling. And then you came to that committee to collaborate on a study you were doing that was partly supported by the National Institute on Disability, Independent Living and Rehab Research or NIDILRR,   Jim: right.   Carol: And so in the executive summary, you noted that there had been a consistent shortage of qualified rehab counselors employed by the state federal VR program for actually several decades. I mean, we're kind of thinking this is a new deal. And it's like this has been going on for quite some time and the Covid 19 pandemic really exacerbated the shortage. And you were also looking at the funding RSA provided to graduate programs that encouraged individuals to work and to be in VR. And you wanted to see like what happened after that two year kind of payback phase. And really, I found that interesting, that the funding had been provided for 65 years, but there had been no formal study about the scholars continuing their employment with VR after that period of time. So your study primarily examined recruitment, retention, concerns of the state vocational rehab agencies, and you identified strategies to address those. And in addition, you looked to see if there was a mechanism to track that long term employment outcome of the former RSA scholars working for the state VR program. So we're going to do this in two parts because you have a lot of stuff you did, and I think our listeners will kill us if we're going to do a two hour podcast. So we're not everybody just stay buckled in. We're going to tackle in two parts. And Jim and I are going to talk today about the retention side of the project. And then next month we are going to talk about the recruitment part of this. So, all right, enough background. Let's dig in. So, Jim, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, like how long you've been in academia? How did you get there?   Jim: How did I get here? Well, I've been an Academician here at Penn State for 37 years. And where did the time go in terms of kind of how I got here? Probably like a lot of your audience, when you think about people that work in the rehab field, a lot of times you get in the rehab field because they have either personal experience with disability or a family member. And that's exactly what happened to me. I had a brother who had Down syndrome, and so I got interested and did volunteer work on high school and in college. And I loved working with people with developmental disabilities. That's how I got interested in rehab. And then during my, you know, college, I knew I wanted to work with people. But a lot of times, you know, when we teach career development, we kind of make it sound like it's this very logical process that you, you know, pluses and minuses and I going to do this. And yet we fail to acknowledge there's a lot of things by fate that impact on your career choice. You just happen to be in this office who you just happened to say something who happened to know somebody else who happened to have this job. So when I look back at my own career, one of the things I tell my students is that, yeah, you can plan and you want to be in a position to have opportunities. To come, but there's a lot of things you can't control and there's a lot of things that just sort of happen, if you will. Some might say by divine providence. I don't know if that's the case. But anyway, there's a lot of things that you can't plan. So in my own career, how I got that was sort of a combination of just fate happen to be in this place at this time. And then obviously preparation in terms of formal education and experience. But yeah, it's gone by fast.   Carol: I love that when you said 37 years, we probably have some listeners out there going, I'm not even 37 years old right now. And I was thinking this year I just had my 37th anniversary. And so you and I have been around for a little bit more than a minute. I think that's cool. But I love that that you said by fate, I think a lot of us have fallen into our career trajectory truly by fate in whatever kind of circumstance. Like you said, you came into it at the time. So what went into approaching this study and kind of how long have you been at this?   Jim: Yeah, it's funny. As far as doing this study, how I kind of got interested in it was I mean, I've been a project director for many RSA training grants throughout that time period. There's a lot of investment that you make and help students become rehab counselors and Penn State I think like many universities, we have a strong commitment to the state VR program. You know, I've always said that I feel that State VR people, you should have the best trained people to address the difficult needs and complex needs of people with disabilities have. So there's a lot of investment that's made. And then also, as you know, after they graduate and they get supported through RSA traineeship, they'll typically work for every one year of support, two years of full time employment. So if they work for a state agency, there's a lot of investment the agency makes. You'll often hear it takes 2 to 3 years before you just kind of feel like, I know this job. So when you combine that, you see the amount of financial investment and professional investment that educators and practitioners make. And so over the years when I've had a chance to meet with a number of our former alumni and what are you doing? And one of the things I notice is some of them would be working for a state agency, and then after a couple of years, they do their two year payback and said, I'm out of here. It's like, man, you know, what's going on? What's happening here? What are we doing? And what I came to learn talking with other educators across the country is it's not something I think, wow, is this something just unique to us? Maybe we're doing something wrong here. Maybe we need to do a better job, which of course, we could always do. But what I learned anecdotally was that, no, this seems to be kind of a nationwide problem. So you had that on top of I was interested. So what research has been done to look at the long term effectiveness of the RSA training program? And what I learned was I could not find any study throughout that whole history. I thought that was kind of interesting because I know we followed in the first two years, but after the payback period, that's it. So that started a pilot project that I had done. So I was just interested what happened with the people that came through Penn State, received the RSA Scholarship and worked. And what I learned from that pilot study, even though the data was a small sample size, I learned when we look at the percentage of people who are at the agency versus those that worked at Non State VR, I learned that it was significantly higher. The rate of people who are intending to leave the state VR. So that kind of rang some bells for me. And from there, with that pilot data, we then decided to undertake this three year study to investigate what's going on and more maybe not necessarily more importantly, but just as importantly, what can we do about it? So we are just finishing our second year of data and today and next month, we'll talk about some of the results of what are some of the things that we found from that study. So that's really kind of how this whole thing emerged.   Carol: I really love that you tackled this because that was so interesting to me, especially when you were looking at 65 years of this program. But there was nothing done like there had been no study of what happened to the people. I'm sure as you were talking to directors and I used to be a director, you know, anecdotally we could see and tell you, like we knew in Minnesota, I felt like we were the training grounds for the VA. And so, you know, staff would come in, they would do an internship with us, come on board, Yay, you know, and all of that. And then the next thing you know, there's skedaddled over to the VA because they could make like 20,000 more a year starting. It was crazy. So it's like, how do we combat that? And we'll get to some of that. You had definitely some ideas for folks on how to do it, but I was really super pleased to see what you had undertaken there. So let's talk about the recruitment challenges that you identified in the study. What are the top challenges that VR is facing?   Jim: Right now, the first thing I'm going to tell you, I'm sure your listeners are going to go, duh. I mean, the first big challenge is we don't have enough applicants. We don't have enough people applying for the jobs. And there's a lot of reasons for that. And I'd like to unpack maybe just a few of them. But one of the big things that states are constantly saying is years past, maybe we'd have a job opening and we might have 15-20 applicants today. We might be lucky if we can get a couple and in some cases we get none. So the big problem is we don't have a sufficient number of qualified job applicants. That's, you know, the big thing. So it's like people don't know about us. People don't know how to kind of how's this process work? To varying degrees, I think educators do kind of a mixed job on how do we market this. So why would you want to become a state VR counselor? You know, if you ask college students who want to be counselors, social workers, psychologists, and say, hey, there's this thing called a state counselor, it's like, what? What is that? I don't know. What do they do? That's a big, big problem. Another big, big problem that we have is look at the bureaucracy. You and I, we've had a history of and I'm still working in the bureaucracy here at Penn State as much as I love it. But the big thing is in that bureaucracy, the time it takes to recruit somebody, then you have to kind of review all the applicants. You have all the policies and procedures and steps and levels of people that need to review and sign off on this. Well, that process typically takes 2 to 3 months. And so you're thinking like, okay, for states that are looking and I know that regulations are changing, hiring more baccalaureate people, but especially for master's level credentialed persons, they don't have time to kind of wait two, three months to hear back from a job. If you think back to like when you know, way back in the Stone Age, when I'll just say when I graduated, you finish and you were poor and you needed money and I need to get a job and a job fast. So to ask them to wait for 2 or 3 months after they graduate, we're losing. We're losing a lot of qualified people. We need to do something about how do we reduce that time that's a little bit more manageable and a little bit more reasonable.   Carol: I hear about that from directors all the time, that hiring practices. In fact, we're doing a little bit of a pilot on recruitment retention within our VRTAC for quality management. And so you've been aware I've been working with John Connolly and Ron Vessel, John Walsh, Missy Deal and Crystal Gary on our team where we've been talking about this. We've been also coming to the Operation Personnel Committee. But one of the states we're working with, you know, it's taking them 7 or 8 months to be able to make the offer. So they literally interviewed people. And then by the time HR worked through their processes, it was eight months later. And then you're going to offer to somebody and they're like, we thought this was done because we haven't heard from you. Gosh, you're going on a year, for Pete's sakes. People aren't hanging out. And if they are hanging out, there's probably a reason they're hanging out and somebody else didn't pick them up.   Jim: You're absolutely right. Typically with state directors who we spoke with and we spoke to about 20 in the first part of this study, usually it was about 3 or 4 months. So, boy, if it's 7 to 8 months, oh, my lord, that's really, really bad. So on top of that, another big problem and this is where I think educators need to do a better job. A lot of applicants really don't understand what is it that a state VR counselor does? This might be a little controversial to say, but I think one of the things when we kind of went through the new accreditation process from CORE to CACREP and all and the counselor identity, now this is just my personal opinion. I'm not saying it represents, you know, any other constituent group. But in my opinion, I think what we've lost in that transition is we've lost a bit that the importance of career development, of job placement. We've lost, you know, kind of career counseling. And so I think students really don't understand that while I want to work in private practice, so they have this kind of idealized expectation, like, you know, I just open up my shop or I work out of my house and people just be coming and it'll be great. I'll provide good services, I'll make a good income. It doesn't work that way. It takes time to kind of do all that. And then my wife is a therapist had been doing this for 40 years. Even when you do that again, you have some idea of how you think it's going to work, and they don't really understand, like, Hey, well, what are some of the downsides of kind of private practice? And so a state view job has lots of benefits, I think, that make attractive. And one of the things I say to my students is where should I start? For me, working as a state counselor is a fantastic way to kind of get on the ground floor because you learn different systems, different agencies. You understand the whole network, and you'll also get connected in the community so you understand, you know, other providers and kind of what they do. That takes time. I think that's another problem because people have some understanding and we'll talk about the paperwork and all that. And there are definitely downsides, but there's a lot of upsides. The other big thing, no surprise, surprise, money. We don't pay them enough. We can talk about later on this podcast or the next about what certain states are doing and all. But the big problem is and you just alluded, not alluded, you actually stated that years ago, you take like the VA offer is just one example and it's like, okay, the credentials are the same. So why would I want to work at this place? It's going to pay me $20,000 less to do basically kind of very similar kinds of jobs. And so while some states have been successful in getting higher compensation, others have not. And we'll talk more about this probably in the next podcast because I do have some ideas about what you can do to address the compensation issue. So when you look at those four reasons, the fact that we don't have enough people, the fact that it takes time to go through all the recruitment that applicants, they don't really have an understanding of what's this job about? And the money, that's a deadly combination. And so we need to now think about, well, what are things that we could do to kind of make this more attractive to recruit them?   Carol: I know when we were talking money, so I did a podcast. It was in April with Scott Dennis from Maryland. For our listeners, if you didn't catch that episode, definitely go back and listen, because he was successful in getting a significant increase for his counselors and the supervisors and the regional administrators because he's in this unique position where he's surrounded by like DC and all these other states. So he goes, Gosh, we're the training ground for RSA. Like they're stealing all my people. And folks were making significantly more well by him. And this wasn't overnight. Like everybody needs to know like any of these solutions that we're going to talk about, like it takes time. Literally. They've been working on this for several years. And finally, we're able to get it through. It almost immediately stopped the bleeding because he said he was every week getting everybody was reporting up like all these resignations. And it stopped and they actually started getting people back in that used to work for him, came back and said, hey, we love that job, but now you're paying a decent wage. I will come back. I know it struck me in the study, when you go the range of pay was from like 16,000. When you're talking about like an intern, you know, and it might be like the aid type of thing up to 101,000 and you go, that is a big spread. And there's a whole lot of states talking about, you know, those master's level counselors coming out and they're making $36,000. That's not going to cut it like that is not going to cut it. So I am definitely excited as we kind of get into talking about some of the other strategies folks could use. Now, I know you called out directly that VR agencies do not have an overall strategy to develop a comprehensive recruitment plan. And recruitment really is a reactive process. When somebody leaves the agency and I know we're going to chat about retention next month, so let's talk about some strategies that might help folks on the recruitment front.   Jim: Yeah, that's right. So the first thing is, okay, when you look at traditionally like how does a state VR advertise? And often what we find is they'll do it through the State Civil Service Commission. And because that's the mechanism that historically that we've used. So we're going to continue. That's great. That's fine. But we've got to expand other outlets because number one, as I said, job applicants, many may not even know what civil servant. What is that? I don't know what civil service. I don't even know what that is. Well, we advertise there, but we have to look at accessing other networks. So the things that, you know, like indeed, and LinkedIn and ZipRecruiter, Facebook, there's just tons of social media networks that we need to be aware of. Again, I'm kind of old school, so Facebook. But yeah, I mean, my son, who's 26 TikTok and Reddit is a bunch of it anyway, so I'm not an expert on all that. But the point being is we have to think broader. So when we think about that, we have to recognize there's other tools that we're not using. Now, with that being said, and states are already starting to do this to again, historically, they've sought out rehab counseling programs as a source to say, hey, we're going to have some positions. If you have students coming out, we'd love to interview them. Great. But there are a number of states that you don't have an accredited program in your state and Savannah were fortunate because we have several, but there are some states that have none. So what they have to do in those instances, they've got to look at other programs, mental health programs and social work programs and school and psychology and substance abuse. So there are universities that have those kinds of programs. So we need to establish and I'll talk about this in a minute or two, a better working relationship with individual university program coordinators. Historically, we've had that. But in some cases, I think maybe because of the pandemic, things have kind of necessarily evaporated. But I think, you know, that relationship has been tested a little bit over the last couple of years. And not just that in terms of the network. And I think historically, State VR has done a good job in this area, but they could still do better in terms of the diversity of workforce. So there are groups I'm thinking in terms of ethnic minority groups in particular here where we need to do a better job in terms of recruitment. And so what that means is maybe we can't always rely on kind of traditional sites that many people use, but there are certain job boards and certain postings that are specifically devoted to access to underrepresented groups in terms of disability, may be wrong on this,. I think it's called recruit disability. I think there's another one called 70 million Jobs. So we have that. The other thing too, and sometimes in rural areas we have to do more and want to get back to something actually you mentioned, Carol, was I have to say this was a surprise to me. Originally we were going to do the study. We were going to interview state VR executive directors, and then the HR person who is responsible for recruitment and retention. And based on the people that responded to our surveys, we didn't find anybody. There's nobody that says this is my job title. Like, my job is to focus exclusively on recruitment and retention. And I think that's a big problem because that gets to what you were talking about a little bit earlier and that being that unfortunately, recruitment is kind of an afterthought. It's a reactive process. It's like, Oh, we just lost somebody. We got to recruit people to refill that well, that's the wrong way to kind of do things. That's sort of like we're reacting to something that actually happened and well, we'll get into retention next month. You know, part of that is how do we keep people? That's a separate issue, but also how do we recruit them? So we have to think, you know, what are we doing? So having a designated person who is responsible for this, I can't think of a more important aspect than recruiting and retaining your workforce. Lots of problems. But if you don't have a qualified workforce that is going to be around, everything else is kind of a moot point.   Carol: So I agree 100%, because I even think back to our old agency that I came from in Minnesota, we didn't really have a recruitment strategy. And in our agency, we were in a labor agency. We had all these programs. You know, you've got adult dislocated worker and Wagner-Peyser, and we've got unemployment insurance and disability determination services and all this stuff. And they finally did. They they're like, Oh, we're going to get one dedicated person who's recruiting for all of it, like for every division. And you go, okay, for one, we all vastly do way different work and having some strategies, you know? So you've got this one person I'm going to go to the career fair over at blah blah, blah place. Oh, good grief. You know, we had to all kind of help pitch in to get the message out because a lot of times, you know, on that state website, you know, your career opportunities for the state our ads suck. I mean, they aren't very good. They're not very appealing. It's like, oh, come work for us, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't sound very interesting. And I remember the very first time I was like, okay, heck, no, we are not having that. And I rewrote that advertisement and like, come and join us for this like, mission driven organization and all of that. And people were like, Oh, I don't know if we're allowed to do stuff like that. And we had people apply because they're like, We've never seen an advertisement like that, you know, just getting in some of that fresh thinking. But that is something that VR can think about. Maybe you do only have one person in the agency, but then within your own group, is there a way you can have someone that can assist in helping to like make those advertisements appealing? Can they help to get the word out? I know our colleagues in North Carolina, General, they did a really cool thing through Facebook. They were writing really cool, like, why you want to come and be on my team? I'm like, I would answer that ad like, that was awesome. I think VR has got to get in there and advocate and see how they can help be part of the solution for this.   Jim: You're absolutely right. And again, that's where, you know, kind of the history. Well, we've always done it this way. Well, that doesn't mean that we need to keep doing it that way. In any kind of professional reports that I've written about the study. I wouldn't say, you know, the way we post is sucks, but actually you're absolutely correct. That's exactly I mean, you read these job postings and say, well, is this intriguing? Like, my God, this thing sounds boring as hell. Why would I ever want to work that? No, thanks, but no thanks. And you mentioned North Carolina. That individual also participated in the study. And one of the things I remember that she had done was talking about not just how we do it, but the consistency. In other words, a state position, the same job. It's written one way in one city, it's written another way in another city. So wait a minute, how can we have the same job? And it's, you know, so we got to make sure that, number one, that the information is consistent across. But number two and the larger point that you're hammering on and I would agree, we have to think, especially with the newer applicants, again, I'm baby boomer I'm just about boomed out. But the Gen Z the millennials not to stereotype but I think they have a different view, a different way of thinking as it relates to this job seeking process. So we have to make it present, not just the job. Why do you want to work here in this office? What's unique, if you come in the Philadelphia office, what is it that we got that's so doggone special that you're going to love as opposed to Pittsburgh as opposed to Altoona or Harrisburg? So that's where we have to think a little bit more about on a unit level like and you know this and I know our listeners know this, you can go into one district office and the climate may be you can feel the vibe and you can go to another district office and there's another vibe. And that largely depends on the leadership and the sensitivity. And so you can go in and go, Wow, You know, these folks, they look like they're having fun and then, oh, this doesn't look like much fun. This is not fun. And so you have to be sincere, but you have to think I mean, that gets into a whole other issue in terms of climate, which we'll that's another topic. But anyway, the point being is if you feel like, you know, this is a good place to work, what makes it a good place? Explain to me in simple language why you want to come here. And so that's something. So while you can have the standardized because sometimes states regulations and all it has to be you can have standardized narrative, but you can also incorporate a section on why do you want to come here at this office? This is what we can offer you. This is why it's cool to work here.   Carol: And that's completely controllable, you know, like having that little added narrative, just by like we need to use our words and speak up. I think people get used to the system sort of happening to us and with our situation happening in VR, like we got to stand up and go, Hey, like that isn't working because I'm getting zero applicants from that crappy announcement. Can we just change this wording? I know we need to have in our very specific things, you know, there's required, but can I have a paragraph that I can add at the top and it can be done? We've talked to people and they're like, Well, I don't know if we can do that. Did you ask? Because for sure you're never going to get to do it if you don't ask. You need to at least use your words and ask and show them an example like, Here's all your blah blah stuff, but I need this in there to just like punch them right away. Like how and grab them. This is going to be a really cool opportunity and that is in our control.   Jim: Again, you're hammered that point very well. And sometimes people like the system or those guys, it's like, who are those guys? You know, to quote a line from a Butch Cassidy Sundance movie. So that's a movie for the baby boomers. But any rate, who are those guys? Well, we are those guys. And you're right, so often we don't even ask. We just assume this is the way. Well, could we? Oh, I don't know. No one's asked that. The other thing, too, that we talked about is the time, the time it takes before you get the job announcement and you go through this whole rigmarole and you actually hire can be months or, you know, in your case, three quarters of a year. I mean, that's unbelievable. So the question is, well, what can we do about that? It's funny because now I got North Carolina on the brain and because for confidentiality, I could probably mention but indicate I wouldn't mention people's names, but just say North Carolina, I'll leave it at that. You know, one of the things that what was happening that they identified was, well, why does it take so doggone long? What is going on there? Because the director is here and, you know, all kinds of complaints. Why, you know, from the managers and blah, blah, blah. So what things that she found that was important is like, well, let's talk with the HR people and say, can we do anything to kind of make this a little bit shorter? And so you had these like everything else, it all comes down to the R word relationship. So suddenly, like, I have a relationship with HR and I can contact them. They know me, I know them. We've built up mutual trust here. We're not just sort of a voice on the telephone or that kind of a thing. And so what they learned is, well, there are some things that we can do for reducing that lag time, but it all really kind of depended on staying on top of it. You know, so, hey, we advertise this thing last week. Where are we? What's the process? So we have to monitor and see this again. That makes a big difference when you have a designated person that says, my job. We have 25 vacancies in the state office this year. My job, part of it is finding out where are we? What's happening? What's going on? How many people? So it's that constant monitoring, following up, asking questions. So you have that. The other thing is like, well, procedurally we said, well, kind of reduce. Well, agencies, there's all kinds of background checks. You know, you got criminal background checks, you got child abuse, history clearances, motor vehicle. Sometimes you need to have those kinds of records. Some of that documentation could be done up front. So, in other words, as the application. So maybe that's part of the you know, hey, be aware that we need these. So you're already telling the applicant get started on this because it takes usually 2 to 3 weeks, sometimes a little longer. But if you kind of start that up front as opposed to 3 or 4 weeks into the, well, now we've just added on to that. So what can we do? So one of the things I know, like what I'll say to my students is most places now require you to do these background checks, whether you're going to state or not, to have these kinds of background checks, especially obviously if you're working with children or adolescents, get all that documentation from the very beginning so that when you begin the process, we're all ready to go. So I already have that information. Now, the other thing, too, again, I don't want to get too far in the retention aspect, but, you know, a lot of times like, okay, why do people leave? And one of the reasons is we'll talk about next month is people leave because they don't really understand the job as it relates to recruitment. Then there are a couple states at the moment, I can't say exactly which ones, but I do remember there are a couple states that what they had done is and I found this really interesting, is part of the recruitment process and to address the problem of what were you expecting, what was your understanding about this job? So as part of the recruitment process and the interview process, what they did was they would allow the applicant to actually job shadow a state counselor for maybe a day. You can learn a lot of information. And we know that when we have greater samples of behavior, we have stronger predictive outcomes. You know, they can see like the good, the bad and the ugly of this job. So some people might say, well, boy, if you do that, you know, we might not get that person. Well, maybe that's a good thing. Like this person. I'm not really sure this job is for me now after doing it. Yeah, I kind of think no, I don't think this is the job for me. At the same token, you have people like, Hey, I get this a little bit more. You know, I think this would actually be kind of a pretty cool job. The other thing and I can just talk more from my experience working with students who predominantly, not surprisingly, they're going to work for the state VR program would be here in Pennsylvania. And I get it. Because of hiring, you know, we have to be consistent. But sometimes, like that whole process almost sounds robotic. It's like you can't be human. You know, you have to ask these questions and you can't kind of deviate. And I'm not saying kind of break policy on that, but I would ask the again, this is the point that you made. Well, we've always done it that way. Well, did anybody ask do we have any kind of latitude here? Can we do some other things? So in other words, as they go through that initial screening process, one of the things happened is not that you have kind of the formal but you also have kind of an informal process. So one of the things that I know students really appreciate is if they have an alum who's working at that district office. So it's like, well, yeah, you graduated from Penn State two years ago as Dr. Herbert. Yeah, that guy, he's still there. They can't get rid of him. So then they have kind of a natural connection. So what states are doing is like, well, want to have kind of informal kind of get together. So maybe after you go through the formal process, you give everybody the opportunity. Some would say, yep, that sounds good. Others, no, I don't want to do that. But you give everyone the same opportunity. Would you like to talk with some of our, you know, Richard Bolles, who maybe some of your audience might not know who he is, wrote a book called What Color is Your Parachute? It's all about career and fantastic. Well, anyway, one of the things I remember many, many, many years ago when I first saw him, he said there's two decisions being made in the interview. The first is, do we want you? Do we want the job applicant? But the more important decision is do they want us? We got to pay more attention to that aspect we represent. So when you're interviewing, you know, like who are they interviewing with? It's like, what's the energy that you're communicating with? Yeah, we need to do a better job with that. The other thing I'll just kind of finish up on. This aspect is I talked about the importance of relationship, and that's the same thing here, states and rehab educators. We need to kind of reengage, if you will. I think because of the pandemic. I think that relationship to some extent has kind of impacted. And so make sure that you have a working relationship with your individual program directors and also to think about like, well, when jobs are going to be available, you know, let's say, hey, we're going to have something in May, well, usually they might contact us maybe in April. If you can be a little bit more proactive, if you know something's coming down the pipe, let us know earlier because then we can kind of, hey, these are coming available. I guess the final thing I'll just say, we've done this historically in Pennsylvania and over the last couple of years, it's been phased out. I'm hoping it'll get back phased in. Think about allocating a portion of your budget to offering paid internships. If you can give students the opportunity to say, look, it's a paid internship, you're going to get some income because they're poor, even though they have the training grant. Most programs, that's not going to cover all of the expenses. So providing that kind of paid internship. And in Pennsylvania, I'll say we're fortunate they also provide medical benefits. So you do the paid internship if you do a good job, you know that, Wow, you're going to be hired here. Maybe not this particular office. We do an internship, but one of these offices. And so giving that kind of opportunity and also more importantly is then you can see, I mean, the job interview, anybody can fake it for an hour or two. But when you have somebody for 15 weeks, you know, whether or not, you know, hey, this is a person we want to retain or we don't want to retain. Yeah. So I feel like I've been a little gerbils speed up, but hopefully that that kind of covered it.   Carol: No, I love it. Jim. I think the important thing is to take away from this conversation today is that really VR has got to look at this differently. We cannot be operating the same way we operated 20 years ago. Like times have changed. So we have to deal with the situation where we're at today. We need to be proactive instead of reactive. There are a number of things within our control and we should be good at like we're people, people, relationship building that's in our… like we're good at that, Like buy a muffin for those people. I used to tell folks that whatever you need to do to grease the skids to get things rolling, like really working proactively, looking at your messaging, looking at I love that. Paying for the internships for the folks. Absolutely. We started doing that. I can't believe when I first came, it's like, okay, we're going to have interns come in and we're not going to pay them. Well, nobody has any money. Like, what's wrong with minimum wage or something? Let's give them some money so they'll come and do that. And it is a great insight into how folks can work. I really look forward to us continuing the conversation next month to go through the rest of the study. So I really appreciate your time today and definitely I will put the link for your study out with our podcast announcement as well. So thanks for joining me today. Really appreciate it.   Jim: Thank you. It's a wonderful time and I look forward to talking with you next month.   Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the podcast. I'm Georgiana, your English teacher, and my mission is to help you speak English fluently.  And if you want to help me, share the podcast. That would mean a lot. Thanks.   Ok! We'll start with a brief conversation that includes the top 10 business expressions. And to make learning more fun, I've taken inspiration from 'The Office' TV show. And you'll learn grammar in context with a point of view story.   Before you start listening, make sure to get the transcript on my website: SpeakEnglishPodcast.com It's free! Let's get started!   Jack walked into the office and said...   Jack: "Wow, this place looks familiar. It's like I'm in 'The Office' TV show." Pam: "Yeah, Jack, we get that a lot. We like to think outside the box here." Jim: "You're right, Pam! We're always brainstorming new ideas to stay ahead of the competition." Jack: "That's great to hear. I'm ready to get the ball rolling and take it to the next level." Pam: "Good to hear. But make sure to touch base with your boss consistently. It's important to stay in the loop and keep him updated on your progress. Jack: "Definitely. I want to make sure we're all on the same page following best practices for team collaboration." Michael: "And we need people like you to keep an eye on the details." Jack: "Thanks for the advice. At the end of the day, it's all about producing high-quality work and making a difference." Pam: "Absolutely. This may feel like a TV set, but it's a real community of people. Welcome aboard!" Let's listen to the used expressions: #1 "Thinking outside the box" - This phrase means to think creatively or in a non-traditional way. #2 "In the loop" - This means to be informed or included in a particular situation or discussion. #3 "Get the ball rolling" - This phrase means to start a process or get something started. #4 "At the end of the day" - This phrase summarizes or emphasizes a point. #5 "Brainstorm" means generating ideas or solutions through group discussions or sessions. #6 "Touch base" means making contact or following up with someone. #7 "Get on the same page" - This phrase means to make sure everyone understands and agrees on a particular plan or idea. #8 "Keep an eye on" means monitoring or watching closely. #9 "Take it to the next level" - This phrase means improving or advancing to the next stage. #10 "Best practice" - An officially accepted and detailed method or set of methods for use in a specific business or industry. Get the transcript here: https://speakenglishpodcast.com/podcast/

Today we have an amazing human being and an incredible leader. We have Kim (KC) she'll tell you what that means. Later Kim, who's a retired Air Force colonel, served in the Air Force for more than 24 years as a fighter pilot and a senior military leader, she's flown more than a hundred combat missions protecting troops on the ground both in both Iraq and Afghanistan. As a senior military leader, Kim has led hundreds of airmen at home and abroad in deployed locations around the world. Most recently, Kim served as a director of the Center of Character and Leadership Development at the Air Force Academy. Kim is now Managing Director of Victory Strategies, where she's the leadership coach and keynote speaker. She's also the author of Flying in the Face of Fear, Lessons on Leading with Courage.  Jim: You've been everywhere. You've done everything that the Air Force had to offer. Why did you leave? You don't have to have to, right? So why did you say it was time to hang it up? Kim: I tried to leave three times, so I figured the third time was a charm. But one of my final jobs in the Air Force before I moved to the Air Force Academy, I was a group commander responsible for about a thousand people throughout Central America, South America the Caribbean, a lot of travel, a lot of time away from home. I absolutely loved connecting with my team, getting out and meeting them and walking around, getting to know them. But my husband was also an active duty Air Force officer at the time. He was responsible for the entire base down in Tucson. We also have two boys who happened to be now 10 and 14, but at the time were one and five. And it was a lot. We came to realize that our priorities were changing, the pressures were changing, the stress levels were changing, and we decided it was time to do something different where we were a little bit more in control of our schedules. I attempted to retire then and the Air Force asked if I would stay and become an instructor at the Air Force Academy. Which to me, coming back was home for me. That's where I started my career. And so, coming back there was a great opportunity to help influence the next generation of leaders. Then my husband and I retired at the same time, same ceremony, but it was really a family decision more than anything. And resetting our priorities and our boundaries as well. My passion and my purpose were really initially flying A10, supporting our troops on the ground. That changed over time as I got to lead teams. But then my passion and purpose, changed and I was able to put all my effort and energy and passion into leading the next generation of our airmen, of our leaders of our aviators. And that to me had value, and I was able to find my new way. Jim: We help people get better as leaders. Just for a minute, we must touch on the A10 though, it's too cool an aircraft not to talk about for a minute or two before we dive into the other stuff. So why A10s and what was your view on it? Kim: I realized early on during my days at pilot training, I knew I wanted to be a fighter pilot.I knew from the fifth grade on I was going to be a fighter pilot. I didn't know what airplane I wanted to fly. And then I got to pilot training, and I realized that I really enjoyed low-level flying. It was just fun. It was exciting. It was exciting to fly really close to another airplane. And then I started talking to other pilots about what they liked about their missions. There was something unique. They were so passionate about supporting our troops on the ground, knowing that what they did every day made a difference and helping someone get home safely to their families. That is a mission I can get on board with. And that was my choice to go fly the A10. Jim: For those of you that don't know the A10, it's low-level. It's basically a gigantic cannon with wings, and it's designed to support the troops by clearing the way for them and suppressing other opposing forces. It is one of the most feared aircraft in the arsenal of the United States of America by any opposing force. But you didn't make it home one time.  Kim: It happened on April 7th, 2003. So we're almost at the 20-year anniversary. That's part of the reason that I love the A10, why I'm passionate about the A10 was that it helped get me home safely. And I happened to be over Bagdad providing support to our troops on the ground when my airplane was hit with a surface tear missile. I remember that moment; it was such a loud boom and bright red-orange flash as this fireball envelops my aircraft. And then it just dumped over, and I could see Bagdad below. And I think it was just instinct. I pulled back on my control stick and absolutely nothing happened. It was not responding to any of my control inputs. And I remember thinking, I do not want to eject. I mean, that's the last thing I want to do is eject over Baghdad. And I really fell back on my training and all the preparation that I had done quickly trying to figure out what was going on in my aircraft. And I've got lights flashing everywhere. I've got a master caution panel that's lit up like a Christmas tree. I mean, it was slightly overwhelming, but I had to focus on what was most important. And that is, how do I get this airplane under control? I quickly realized that it has lost all hydraulics. They dumped out when the missile hit the airplane. And so at this point, I know I either eject or I try to get the airplane in our backup emergency system. And thankfully I flipped that switch. The airplane worked exactly as advertised, and I was able to slowly pull the aircraft and, and get away from Baghdad. And that was for me, the first moment I felt like I was going to make it out of there alive. I flew the airplane back for an hour. I was able to get it on the ground which was obviously a huge feeling of relief. And let's say there was a lot of adrenaline in that moment. And the next day, instead of being tasked with a normal mission, I was tasked with combat search and rescue alert, which is another mission we fly, where if an aviator is shot down, then we go and do everything we can to rescue them. Normally when we're on alert, we sleep, we rest, you know, it's, it's downtime because this, this doesn't happen often, but this was April 8th, the alarm sounded, it wasn't a drill. An A10 pilot had been shot down right in Baghdad, right. Where I had escaped my own shootdown. And for me, it was just that those guys were there for me the day before. I was going to do the same for this pilot. We raced out to the Jets, we were start gathering information, and we make an immediate takeoff. I just didn't have time to think about it. It was just, how do we get there as quickly as we can? And thankfully, he was very lucky he got picked up by friendly ground troops. So we only made it about 30 minutes into Iraq. But wow, you know, it was the whole idea that that's what we do for teammates. Unfortunately, that airplane never flew again. I was able to land it, but it was so badly damaged that they assessed that they couldn't repair it in the location that it was. So they decided that maintenance took every piece and part that they could out of it. But they also cut a piece of the back tail section for me that had the tail number on it. And it's been with me for 20 years. It's hung in every Air Force office I've had. But I recently retired and it held a place actually back behind me here. And this Smithsonian is doing a new exhibit on modern military aviation. They asked if I had anything, and I thought, what better way Yeah. To share the story than that tail flash. So I delivered it on Tuesday to the Smithsonian in Washington DC It will be there in a new exhibit. And now the story and the lessons learned, which are most important to me, can be told to the next generation. Jim: So let's move over to leadership. You move from sort of being an individual contributor in the form of a pilot to leading people. And now you've transitioned to teaching people how to lead people. So let's just roll all the way back and if you had to characterize your leadership approach, what would be the elements of your leadership approach, the teachable elements of your leadership approach? Kim: Well, I think part of the reason that I wrote my new book, I was trying to capture all of these experiences and lessons. And what I realized for me is that over the course of my career, I have experienced fear. I have experienced being nervous or stressed about flying airplanes, and about leading teams. And to me, all it came down to was those feelings, those things are normal. They happen. It is all about what you do in the moment. It is about leading with courage. And so for me, this whole idea of courageous leadership and leading with courage and how can you make those hard decisions? How can you make decisions when you don't have perfect information? How can you have the tough conversations that none of us like to have, but are essential and necessary? How do you hold yourself and other people accountable? How do you admit mistakes when it's really uncomfortable to do so? You know, how do you get out and connect with your team? It all comes down to me having the courage to do that, to do the hard things, to make those connections, and to build an environment of trust. So the short answer is, it's all about leading with courage. For lessons from Kim, and to learn what her call signal KC stands for, listen to the complete podcast on leading with courage.

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with Noah Diamond and Jim Cunningham, talking about the pleasures and perils of playing Groucho Marx.LINKSA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Noah Diamond website: https://www.noahdiamond.com/“Gimme a Thrill: The Story Of "I'll Say She Is," The Lost Marx Brothers Musical” -- https://tinyurl.com/28ftau5eEli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcast***Noah Diamond Transcript JOHNLet's go back to the beginning. We'll start with Noah and then go to Jim. What's your earliest memory of Groucho Marx or the Marx Brothers? NOAHWell, for me, it started in a kind of roundabout way, when I was a very little kid. Before I could even read, I was really interested in books. And I had my collection of Dr. Seuss, and all the books that would be read to me. But what I really liked to do was go downstairs where my parents had, in the living room, bookshelves lining the walls. And their books were really interesting to me. I just knew there were secrets there, you know? They had like big art books and books of poetry and maybe my first experiences with words were looking at the spines of the books in the living room. And one of the books they happen to have was then fairly recent book, Joe Adamson's Groucho, Harpo, Chico and Sometimes Zeppo, which is, I think most Marx Brothers fans would say it's the best loved book about them, certainly and I think the best written. That book came out in 1973. So, it's 50 years old this year and for some reason, as a tiny kid, that was a book that I took off the shelf. It was interesting that it had silver lettering on the spine and little icons, a harp, and what I would come later to recognize as a Chico hat. “Oh, look, this is interesting.” And I started looking through it, and I saw all these pictures. And the photographs of the Marx Brothers were just something to grapple with and it seemed a little familiar to me. My world was the Muppets and Dr. Seuss and Maurice Sendak. The Marx Brothers appeared in these photographs, like there was some continuity there and I also found them a little scary. Groucho in particular, that's quite a face for a child to reckon with. So, that was a book that I looked at a lot when I was just little more than a baby. I wouldn't really see the Marx Brothers in their movies until I was 12. Partly that's because, I'm just old enough to have had a childhood where it wasn't so easy to find old movies. And I sort of had to wait for home video to come along. And when it first came along, it's not like all 13 Marx brothers' movies were at the local Blockbuster.It was that that journey, that constant searching for things that characterized life in the analog world. So, it was very gradual in between those two times.Rather than blow your whole episode on this answer: in between the very little boy looking at pictures in Joe Adamson's book, and the 12-year-old finally, like seeing Duck Soup, and a Night at the Opera on video, there were many years where the Marx Brothers always seemed to be right around the corner. I would encounter them in Mad Magazine, or adults I knew might refer to them. And I sort of came to understand that the nose and moustache and glasses had something to do with Groucho. I was aware of them as a kind of vapor increasingly during those, I guess, nine or ten years between discovering the book and seeing the films. JOHNJim, how about you? Where did you first encounter them? JIM I was an enormous and still am a Laurel and Hardy fan. There was a local television show here in the Twin Cities where I live on Sunday mornings, hosted by a former television child's television host named John Gallos who played Clancy the Cop. And so I came to the Marx Brothers, kind of grudgingly because I was such an enormous and still am Laurel and Hardy fan, that I poo pooed the Marx Brothers for many, many years. I started watching Laurel and Hardy as a little kid. I mean, 7, 8, 9 years old. Every Sunday morning, I would rush home from church and plop down in front of the TV to watch Laurel and Hardy. They were sort of my comedic touchstones, if you will. And then the Marx Brothers were kind of off to the side for me. And I went to the Uptown Theater, John, here in the Minneapolis area … JOHN You crossed the river from St. Paul and came to Minneapolis, you must have really been interested. JIMOh, I only go across the river for work. This was a point where I was not working yet. And I saw a Night at the Opera and you know, was convulsed and then devoured everything I could get my hands on after that. The Marx Brothers were eye opening for me, just in terms of oh my gosh, this whole thing is so different. I was reading in your book that Frank Ferrante said “I was raised by Catholic nuns and I wanted to sort of do to the Catholic nuns would Groucho would do to Margaret Dumont.” And I was like, well, that's exactly right. Because I too was raised by Catholic nuns, and that sort of energy was really attractive to me as a sophomore in high school. And so I fell in love with them. And then, you know, anything I could get my hands on, I watched and read and loved them to this day. I still love Laurel and Hardy quite a bit too. JOHNOkay. Noah, this is just my own experience and I'm wondering if you guys have had the same thing: that entering the world of the Marx Brothers was actually a gateway to a whole bunch of other interesting stuff. I mean, you get into the Algonquin table, you get Benchley, and Perlman and into other plays of Kaufman. And you know, you're reading Moss Hart, and all sudden you look at the New Yorker, because, you know, he was there. I mean, did you find that it sort of was a spider web? NOAH No doubt about it. Yeah, that's very true. It's learning about them biographically and the times they lived in, the circles they traveled in; and partly it's in order to understand the references in their films. That's one of the great things about sophisticated verbal comedy: it's an education, and particularly if you're a kid. So, yes, through comedy and show business in general and the Marx Brothers in particular, I learned, I hesitate to say this, but probably just about everything else I know from following tributaries from the Marx Brothers. JOHNDo you remember the first time you performed as Groucho? NOAHThe first time I played Groucho in front of an audience was in a talent show, a school talent show in, I think seventh grade. I performed with my brother and sister as Harpo and Chico. They're both a little younger than me and by the time we became the Marx Brothers, they were so accustomed to involuntary service in my stock company. They were veterans by that time, they had done living room productions of Fiddler on the Roof where they had to play everyone but Tevya. And we did the contract routine from A Night at the Opera, with a little bit of Harpo stuff thrown in. JOHNOkay. Fantastic. Jim, how about you: first time as Groucho in front of an audience? JIM The first time in front of an audience as Groucho was really the first time I played Groucho. Just as I have a deep and abiding love and respect for the art of magic (and want to see it, want to read about it), I don't want to perform it. Because it is a thing in to its unto itself and if you do it poorly, it's horrible. So, I love to see it. I just don't love to perform it. And I felt the same way about Groucho. So, I went kind of kicking and screaming, to a staged reading of The Coconuts that Illusion Theater did. We really just carried our scripts because there was just a couple three rehearsals, but we read the whole thing and sang some of the stuff that was in it. And then that morphed from there into an actual production of The Coconuts and we did it both at the illusion theater in Minneapolis, and then it moved to the Fitzgerald Theater in St. Paul. When the Marx Brothers performed there, I think it was called The World theatre. So, I love that kind of thing. I love standing where Wyatt Earp stood or standing where William Shakespeare stood. And so, to be doing a play that Groucho did on a stage that Groucho did it. I should have gotten out of the business right then. I should have said it, I've done it. What's left? JOHNExcellent stories. Noah, have you ever done The Coconuts or Animal Crackers? NOAHI haven't done The Coconuts. I would love to. Animal Crackers … One of the subsequent childhood Groucho appearances was when I was 14 years old. I had a relationship with this community theater. At this point, I was living in South Florida. I spent the first part of my life in Connecticut, and then lived in South Florida when I was a teenager and New York since I grew up. And this was in the Florida years. There was a local theater in a town called Coral Springs, it's not there anymore, but it was called Opus Playhouse. And it was a great place that helped me a lot and gave me a chance to put on shows and learn how to do things. And I just wanted to do Animal Crackers. So, I did a bootleg production completely unauthorized. I didn't even have the script. I just wrote the movie down line by line to have a script of Animal Crackers. And so I've sort of done it. But you know, I really shouldn't put that on my resume as I was 14 and... JIMIt counts for me. Anybody who's willing, as a 14-year-old, to go line by line through a movie and write it down, you did the show in my book. NOAH That just shows the desperate measures we had to take in those days. There was no internet. Little kids writing down movies, you know? JIM Exactly. JOHNIt's charming. It's absolutely charming. So, what is it Noah that draws you to play Groucho? What is it about that guy? NOAH Yeah, what is it? I know, it's funny. ‘What is it about Groucho' is a question we can grapple with forever, even aside from the question of why try to be him? I think one thing that definitely true is that as soon as I saw the Marx Brothers and heard his voice and watched him moving around and interacting, the urge to be him, or at least to behave like him, was immediate. I mean, it was right there. Now, I was already a kid who was a little ham and a performer and would be inclined to find my role in anything, anyway. But nothing, no character other than myself, ever grabbed me the way Groucho did or ever has, really. And I think part of it is what you mentioned, Jim, that Frank Ferrante has said, part of it is the instinct to rebel against authority. And that's unquestionably part of the Marx Brothers act, and a big part of the Marx Brothers appeal I think to kids. But I think it's a little more like watching a great violin player and deciding you want to play the violin. It just seemed to me that, as far as embodying a character and getting laughs and singing songs, nobody ever did it like him. Nobody ever seemed to be speaking directly to my sense of humor and my sensibility. I just wanted to talk in that voice. I wanted to play that instrument. JOHNJIM, what about you? JIM Nothing. Really, truthfully, I did not want to do it. I still don't want to do it. But I would do it again tomorrow, if somebody asked.I think trying to find your way to entertain an audience through somebody else is tricky for me. I'm better at playing me than I am at playing anybody else. And so the desire to play Groucho, I have sort of put it inside me, and I have an eye on it all the time. I use Groucho's sensibility without the grease paint, and I'd like to believe that I do. I'm certainly not in Groucho's league. Laurence Olivier said it: steal from everybody, and no one will know. And so I have, but the desire to put on the grease paint and wear the frock coat is akin to me saying, I want to do a magic show. I just I love to go to a magic show. I love to watch a Marx Brothers movie. But I'm really kicking and screaming to play him again, because the mantle is so huge and heavy and I don't think that I'm particularly serviceable as GrouchoIt wasn't until we were halfway through the run of The Coconuts when a light bulb went off in the dressing room, while I was putting on the makeup: there's a difference between being faithful to the script of The Coconuts and what we learned, and being faithful to the Marx Brothers sensibilities, if that makes sense. There's the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law.About halfway through that run, I started doing things that I felt were more attune to the spirit of the Marx Brothers, then the letter of the script. So, I was calling other actors onto the stage. I was going out into the audience, I took a guy out and put him in a cab one night. That sort of anarchy that people talk about when you read about the Marx Brothers in their heyday, about Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin in their heyday: I don't know what's going to happen and I want to be there because of that.And for all I know, it was the exact same show night after night after night, and they just gave the impression that it was crazy. But that idea for me still percolates. This the idea of, am I creating a museum piece or am I trying to, in some way, channel that anarchy for an audience? The other show that I do that has some relevance here is we do a production of It's a Wonderful Life, at Christmas time, as a live radio play. And that too: what am I doing? Are we trying to capture the movie or are we creating something different? So, finding that sort of craziness is what I was most intrigued by and still am. NOAH There's not a lot of roles like that. If you're playing one of the Marx Brothers in Coconuts or Animal Crackers, or I'll Say She Is, it's not the same as playing Groucho Marx in a biographical piece about his life. Nor is it like playing Sherlock Holmes, a very familiar character, where there is room to make it your own. I suppose people have done that with Groucho, too. But generally, if you're in a production of one of the Marx Brothers shows, the assignment is to try to make the audience feel like, if they squint, maybe they're watching the Marx Brothers. JOHN Noah, when you tackled the formidable and important task of recreating, resurrecting, bringing back to life, I'll Say She Is, were you having that same sort of thing Jim was talking about? Balancing the reality of what may have happened against you don't really know for sure and the spirit of it? How did you approach it? But first, why did you pick that show? And then how did you bring it back to life? JIMCan I back up? Because the three of us at this table are enormous Marx Brothers fans. So, if you say I'll Say She Is, we have a frame of reference. But people listening to this may go, ‘what the hell is I'll Say She Is?' So, can you start with that? Can you start with what is I'll Say She Is and how did you come to it, because I think for the layman who's not a huge Marx Brothers fan, they don't even know what we're talking about. NOAH Yes, absolutely. In a nutshell, the Marx Brothers, although primarily remembered for their movies, were already halfway through their career by the time they ever made a film. Most of their lives were spent on stage. They had a long period in vaudeville, and then in the 20s, they became Broadway stars. And that was really the beginning of the Marx Brothers as phenomenon we would recognize. They did three Broadway musicals. The first was I'll Say She Is, a thinly plotted revue, and the second was The Coconuts, and the third was Animal Crackers. By the time they were making talkies, they had these two very prestigious vehicles, Coconuts, and Animal Crackers, written by George S. Kaufman and Morrie Riskin, with scores by accomplished composers, Irving Berlin and Kalmer and Ruby. And there was no question but that those would be the first two films.And as a result, I'll Say She Is just kind of faded into history. It was the show they'd never made it into a movie and no script survived or at least no complete, intact script survived. So, if you were a kid like all the Marx maniacs out there, reading every book you can get your hands on and learning everything you could about the Marx Brothers, I'll Say She Is just had a sort of intrigue about it. What was that show? Everyone knew from those books that the highlight of the show was the Napoleon scene in which Groucho played Napoleon and the other brothers played the various consorts of Josephine, who are always materializing every time he turns his back. And that scene was touted as like, that's really the arrival of the Marx Brothers. That was the essence of them, before they ever met George S. Kaufman. It's just such a tantalizing thing if you love them.I think—because I love the theater and I love musical theater—a lot of my other interests are also right in the bullseye of I'll Say She Is: Broadway, New York City history. I'm a big fan of the culture of the Jazz Age in the 1920s. And this was just so appealing to me. So, every time a new book about the Marx Brothers would fall into my hands, the first thing I would do is look up I'll Say She Is in the index and read all the associated stuff first. I just had a little obsession about it. In The Marx Brothers Scrapbook, which is a book I'm sure familiar to both of you and many of the fans, that book reprints the entire opening night program from I'll Say She Is on Broadway. When I was 12 years old, I took that book to the library and photocopied it, and cut out the pages, and made myself a little program so that I could pretend that I had seen I'll Say She Is. Fast forward many years, and I'm an adult doing theater in New York. My wife and collaborator, Amanda Sisk and I were doing political satires, writing these musicals that would be ripped from the headlines. And we did that for a long time before realizing that the time it takes to develop a musical is too long for topical material, so we could never really perfect our work. And we decided to stop doing those shows, which were a bit of a dead end for us creatively. And I found myself after many years of doing one thing trying to figure out, well, what's my thing going to be now?And I think it was probably inevitable that I would just sort of go home to the Marx Brothers. ‘Well, let's do a Marx Brothers show. I haven't done that in a while, you know?' I don't know, it seems a little bit silly to call something so unlikely, inevitable, but I just think I was hurtling toward it from the day I picked up Adamson's book when I was three or four years old. JIM It had to have been both a joyful and frustrating experiences as you tried to recreate something that doesn't exist. The Napoleon sketch: we did a version of that Napoleon sketch. The only line I can remember from that Napoleon sketch was, “I'll be in Paris tomorrow, don't wash.” That's the only line I can remember from the entire show. I think of that. Was it super fun or was it super frustrating? Or was there a combo? What was that like? NOAHIt was fun. I mean, writing is always a combination of both of those things. Stephen Sondheim once called it agonizing fun. That's kind of what almost any writing process is. This one, I wouldn't have taken on the idea of doing I'll Say She Is if enough of it didn't survive and how much of it seemed to have survived. Before my research, I think what I was really thinking is that I would maybe try to write a book about I'll Say She Is, and maybe figure out some way to do the Napoleon scene on stage. But realizing that it could be a show again, that happened kind of slowly as material started to accumulate. Yes, the Napoleon scene has survived and that's been known for a long time. Also, the first scene of I'll Say She Is is one that's familiar to Marx Brothers fans, because it was an old vaudeville piece that they filmed in 1931. The theatrical agency scene. [Audio from the Clip] NOAH So, those are two big pieces of material were a given. And then as for the rest of it, I became aware, by relying on the work of other researchers, that there was a type script I'll Say She Is at the Library of Congress. Also, another slightly different one at the American Musical Theatre Institute run by Miles Kruger. And I was able to get my hands on the type script. Now it is on one hand, it's the script of I'll Say She Is. That isn't quite that what it is, though. It's a 30-page document that they went into rehearsal with. And, you know, going into rehearsal with the Marx Brothers, it's an outline with dialogue. It's what we would now refer to as a treatment. and there is some dialogue in it, some of which is recognizable from later Marx Brothers projects. Some of it is very sketchy. Of course, almost everything Harpo does is merely indicated: stage directions like, Harpo business, or sometimes, business with hat. But this provided something like 20% of the dialogue and the continuity for I'll Say She Is. There were no lyrics in it, but it did specify where the songs would fall. So, my first attempt to write a script for this was a combination of material from that type script and things learned from the playbill, from reading every account of I'll Say She Is I could find in books and interviews. And then I started to search old newspaper archives, which was just getting easier to do at this time. I was embarking on this sort of major I'll Say She Is research period around 2010 and it was just starting to be possible to read decades worth of old newspapers on the internet. It's gotten much easier since then. So, by reading every review I could find FROM every city I'll Say She Is had played in 1923, and 1924, and 1925, I started to realize there's material here. There's reviews that quote dialogue or describe scenes that aren't in the type script and that I didn't know about before and maybe nobody did (unless they've read this copy of the New York Clipper from 1924). And some of the songs from the original I'll Say She Is were published in 1924 and it was fairly easy to get my hands on those. But that represented only about half the score, maybe a third of the score. A number of the original songs remain missing. And of those, I did manage to find a couple. And to fill in the gaps, I found other songs written by the same people. Will Johnstone was the lyricist (Marx Brothers fans will know him as a screenwriter on some of their later films) and his brother Tom Johnstone wrote the music. Well, the Johnstones also wrote six or seven other Broadway shows during the same period. So, I was able to find some of those songs and interpolate them and do a sort of general polish on the lyrics on the surviving lyrics.When I was bringing in other songs, sometimes I would write the lyrics. I know there was a song here, and I know what it was about. So, I'll write a lyric about that and whenever I had to do that kind of thing, where I would invent something to fill a gap, I would always try to do it very conscientiously, by relying on what I knew about the Marx Brothers act up to 1924. And also by immersing myself in Will Johnstone's writing. He's an interesting, very unsung artist too; he was a very prolific newspaper writer and cartoonist and did a little bit of everything. So, by reading everything I could get my hands on by Johnstone, it made it a little easier to write what he would have written for them. JOHNThat's just fascinating. JIM It really is. The whole thing to me is it's so titillating and so exciting that even though I say I never really want to do Groucho ever again, if you said, I'm gonna send you a copy of I'll Say She Is, I produced that. I'd be in that. I put that up right now. NOAHIt could happen, Jim. I think what you said earlier, Jim, about playing Groucho, you feel like there's this mantle of greatness that is, is impossible to live up to. I feel that way too. It is impossible. I mean, playing Groucho on stage, you're kind of making a deal with the audience, like, ‘Hey, we both know, I'm not him. I'm not. Nobody will ever be that good at doing that. But if you'll meet me in the middle, I think I can fool you for a minute.' It becomes a sense of responsibility. And it's the same thing with reviving, I'll Say She Is. If we're gonna put that title on a marquee, and charge people money to see it, boy, this better be the very best we can do. JOHNSo, once you started reconstructing I'll Say She Is, were you always planning on putting it on its feet? NOAH Well, probably, the answer is definitely yes. I think the question is, would I have admitted it to myself early on? I do remember nibbling around the edges of it for a while before looking at squarely in the face and saying, ‘We have to do this.' We have to do this on stage for that very reason: because it is so daunting. It's daunting to produce a big musical, even without all the baggage and the history and responsibility of the Marx Brothers and I'll Say She Is. JIM I looked at the pictures of your production and was flabbergasted at the cast and how big the cast is, and the costumes for the cast. It was like, this is a big deal. NOAH One thing that was very lucky—because of the nature of the project, and because it's so interesting and historical—it attracted a lot of really talented people, all of whom worked for much less than they deserved. We have done it twice at this point: the Fringe Festival production in 2014 was the first, full staging and the book Give Me a Thrill is current through that production. Then in 2016, we did an Off-Broadway production, which was larger and fuller and ran longer and was even more fully realized. There will be a new edition of a book covering that production. But even that is now some years ago.There is in the future, I think for an even bigger, even more 1924-faithful I'll Say She Is. And I also think there may be a lightweight version of I'll Say She Is. I think we may experiment with that, saying, ‘Oh, okay, it's a 1920s revue. It has a line of chorus girls. It's spectacular. But what if we did to it what Marx Brothers fans often want to do to the film's and just boiled it down to just the Marx Brothers gold and do an I'll Say She Is Redux?' There two licensable versions of Animal Crackers. There's a small cast multiple role kind of version, and then there's the big full musical. JOHNIt's like the Teeny Sweeney. The idea of you offering and creating a version that would be a little easier for most theaters to do. I think is really a smart idea. JIMKnowing the Marx Brothers, and knowing Coconuts and Animal Crackers, because of course, they're enshrined in celluloid and we can look at them whenever we want. There's a story to both of those things, loose as it may be. I wouldn't say either The Coconuts or Animal Crackers were a revue. Is the same true of I'll Say She Is? Is it a revue where we're just going from sketch to sketch to sketch or song to song to sketch, and they're not connected by a through line the way Coconuts or Animal Crackers are? NOAHIt's an interesting question and the answer is kind of both. One thing that has happened is I think the word revue is now understood more narrowly than it was in the Marx Brothers day. When we use the word revue now, we generally mean exactly what you're describing: a variety kind of evening, with a series of unrelated sketches or songs. But the truth is in the 1920s, particularly, revues tended to have either thin plots or themes that tied them together. And that's exactly what distinguished a Broadway review or what would have been called rather snootily, a legitimate revue. That's what distinguishes it from vaudeville, which really was one act after another and what the third on the bill does on stage has nothing to do with the content of what was second on the bill. A lot of these Broadway revues, including the Ziegfeld Follies, they would be built on themes or plots. An example would be As Thousands Cheer, Irving Berlin's famous revue. It doesn't have a plot that runs all the way through it, but each piece is based on a news story of the day. It's not just a collection of songs. In the case of I'll Say She Is, it was a thinly plotted revue. And the thin plot is: a bored heiress is looking for thrills. That's the plot. It makes Animal Crackers look very sophisticated. It begins with a breaking news that a society woman craves excitement, she has promised her hand, her heart, and her fortune to whoever can give her the biggest thrill. Very saucy stuff. So, each scene or musical number in the show is vaguely an attempt to give her a thrill. It's kind of like a clothesline. You can hang anything on it. So, the Napoleon's sketch—in the context that was provided for it in 1924—is a fantasy sequence where the ingenue fantasizes that she's in the court of Napoleon. That's the attempt of the hypnotist to give her a thrill. In order to make the show a little more compact and a little more accessible, in my adaptation I did nudge it a little closer to being a book show. I did I strengthen the plot a little bit. I just added some reinforcements, some undergirding to the plot. And some things in the show that weren't connected to the plot, but could have been, I made some little connections there. And also, some of the sequencing was a little perverse in terms of how the evening built. So I thought, with the help of many people who worked on the show with me, but I'll mention Travest-D and Amanda Sisk, who had a lot to do with the development of the script, we figured out that the Napoleon scene really should go at the end of Act One. And the courtroom scene should go at the end of Act Two. And other little concessions like that to make a contemporary audience feel some sense of satisfaction. JOHNYou both do such a nice job of Groucho—even though one of you has to be dragged into it kicking and screaming. What is, from your experience, what is the hardest part of being Groucho on stage? NOAH Well, for me, the most challenging part is the physical performance. That's the part I work on the most. When I see video of myself as Groucho, that's the part—if I notice things to improve on next time—they're usually physical things. I think that may have something to do with my particular skill set. I'm very comfortable vocally. I like my vocal version of Groucho and it sounds the way he sounds to me. I generally feel confident with that, although off nights do happen. But physically, being him physically, partly because he was so verbally overwhelming, we often overlook what an interesting and unusual and brilliant physical performer, Groucho Marx was. I can't think of anyone who moved the way he moved. Both his physical body was unusual, his shape, and the way he—especially in the early films—he like has no gravity. He's sort of weightless.There is a tendency to make him too manic and to try to match his impact by being loud and fast and very abrupt in your movements. Or overly precise. He wasn't that precise, actually. He was pretty sloppy in the way he moved. But there was a grace in all that sloppiness…The difficulty of putting it into words—that you're experiencing with me right now—is part of where the challenge is. There are times when I feel good about the physical performance, and I nail something, a move of his that I've been working on. But I think that's the part that's the most challenging. JOHNOkay, Jim, how about you? What did you find most challenging? JIM You know, what I found most challenging is dealing with the mantle of Groucho. Not just the audience's expectations of what that means, but more problematic, my own belief system, about what I'm capable of, and how far short of what the man was and did on stage my version of him is.So for me, I always had to really kind of get myself ramped up in order to believe that, okay, I'm going to go on, I'm going to do this. And it was a constant battle for me every night before I would go on. Am I capable of this? Is there anything about this that's even moderately entertaining for an audience? And I just couldn't get by that and I still can't, you know, I still can't get that out of my head. Now, I separate that for a second and set it aside with It's a Wonderful Life. I'm very happy with what I've achieved in It's a Wonderful Life. Very happy with, what I've done, me personally, and the show in general. But my performances, I'm very happy and satisfied with them and I'd love to do them and can't wait till December comes around so I can do it again. But the Marx Brothers thing is that there's a fear factor, I guess that I'm going to let him down in some way and I can't help but let him down. There's a certain love and respect I have for him, in the same way that I have love and respect for magic, that I just don't want to be a bad Elvis impersonator. You know what I mean? That's what I don't want to do. There's a big difference between Elvis and the best Elvis impersonator and you can have joy in both. But, you know, Groucho is so far—and nothing against Elvis, please. If you're listening to this podcast, and you think I'm about to diss Elvis, you're right. But I don't mean it that way. There's a vast difference between what Groucho was on screen and what Elvis was on screen. Elvis could sing. Groucho could do anything. And that's the difference, and I can't do anything. I can barely sing. I'm lucky enough to have done it and I'm happy to have done it and when people talk to me about it. ‘Oh, I saw you was Groucho. You were excellent.' And I want to say, ‘Apparently, you don't know the Marx brothers. I wasn't.' NOAH That's a very Groucho response, that hey, you are great in that show, and you have no taste, you know? JIM That's exactly right. JOHNWell, I could do this all night, but we're not going to do that. I want to just wrap up with a couple Speed Round questions, kind of general Marx Brothers questions. Noah, do you have a favorite of the movies? NOAH Animal Crackers, because I think it's the closest we can get to seeing them as a stage act at the peak of their powers. JOHNOkay, do you have a favorite scene? NOAHYes, I feel guilty because my favorite Marx Brothers scene only has one Marx Brothers in it and I I love Harpo and Chico and I even love Zeppo. I have to say that, but my favorite scene is the strange interlude scene in Animal Crackers. [Audio from the Clip] JOHNTo have been there live, to watch him do that, to see him step forward. I would rank that very high for my favorite scene. Jim, do you have a favorite movie and a favorite scene? JIMYeah, I think so. Largely because it was my first experience of the Marx Brothers, nothing for me compares to a Night at the Opera. If I am clicking around and Night at the Opera is on, we stopped clicking and that's what it is. And anybody who is in the house, my wife or the kids, I'm sorry, but you'll either have to find another TV or go out to play, because this is what we're going to be watching for a while And you know the line of Groucho's, what happened? [Audio from the Clip: “Oh, we had an argument, and he pulled a knife on me so I shot him.”]. JIM That right there. When I heard that the first time, I was afraid I'd have to leave the theater. I started laughing so hard, and I couldn't come back from it. It just kept coming to me. I kept thinking of that well past it and was giggling about it and so that whole ‘belly up, put your foot up here.' That whole thing to me is as good as it gets. JOHNOne other little alley, I want to go down. There's another great book and Noah, if I get the title wrong, please correct me. Is it Four of the Three Musketeers? NOAH Yes. JOHNWhich tracks in exhausting detail, every stage appearance of their stage career. As you look through it—we're all getting older, all three guys—you begin to realize the weird gap or you think something was a long time ago and it turns out it wasn't. I was born in 1958 and realized just recently that Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein was made a mere 10 years before I was born. The Marx Brothers on stage in the 20s, or late teens and 20s, they're traveling everywhere in the country. They came to Minneapolis a lot. They went to Duluth a lot. And, you know, a mere 40 years before I was born, I could have gone and seen them. So, my question to you guys is: you have a chance to see the Marx Brothers live on stage in that era. What is your pick? What do you go see? You have a time machine. You can go you can go see one thing or two. I'll give you two, because I have two. NOAHWell, I'm glad. I'm glad you're given me two, because the obvious answer is I'll Say She Is and.... JIM That would be my answer too. JOHN Bring your iPhone and hit record. Yeah. NOAH Yeah, right, bootleg it. Nobody knows what an iPhone is anyway. Exactly. JIM And then you just go right back to what you did as a 14-year-old line by line. JOHNOkay. So, your second choice after the obvious, I'll Say She Is? NOAH I guess it would be to see some of the even earlier stuff, satisfying the urge to see them at their best on Broadway. You know, there's a lot of curiosity about the act up really up to 1920. In 1920 or 21, there's a big change. That's when Groucho painted the moustache on and drops the German or sometimes Yiddish accent he had been using before. Harpo and Chico evolved more subtly, but in a sense, they were all playing somewhat different characters in the early vaudeville tabs. So I guess I would want to see Home Again, which was their vaudeville tabloid, that carried them through the World War One years and beyond. JOHNJim? JIMAnything vaudeville. The school sketches that they did. I'd see anything. It wouldn't matter to me. If I could get back there, I'd go every day. John, you and I were talking about Robin Williams and being the greatest improviser of all time, and the quote that you said was, somebody had said, “see the eight o'clock show, then see the 10 o'clock show, and we'll talk.” And to me, that's interesting. I would kill to, you know, follow them on the road, like Bruce Springsteen, and just see how much of it really is the same. In the same way that I'm tickled, when somebody says to me, ‘How much of that did you just make up on the spot?' None of it. Essentially, none of it did I make up on the spot. I'd like to see how much of what they did day to day was exactly the same and how much of it was, ‘today, I'm going to do this for no reason at all' and I'd like to see how much of that is different. JOHNYou know, my two choices kind of fall within that. One is the day that Chico's daughter didn't go to the show, and she came home, and Chico thought she'd gone to it and he said, ‘What did you think?' And she said, ‘What do you mean?' And he said, ‘Harpo and I switched roles.' And I know it's weird: if you had like one chance to go see the Marx Brothers, you're gonna go see them do the role they're supposed to do. But it's just fascinating when you think about it. The other one is when Groucho was sick and Zeppo stepped in and if I'm quoting Susan Marx's book correctly, the reaction was so strong towards what Zeppo did that Groucho got healthy really fast and came back. But Zeppo was really, really good. We do have the agent sketch, so you get a sense of what they were like on stage. You do get that. But the idea of seeing, I can easily see Zeppo doing Groucho. But Chico doing Harpo and vice versa? I realize that if I have a time machine, I should go back and do something more helpful for the world. But at that same time, I want to stop by and see that one show where they switched. JIM That you'll do that on your lunch break. While you're stopping World War Two, on the way home, swing by and see that show. You've earned it. NOAH That's a good answer. JOHNYeah. Noah, thank you so much for chatting with us. JIM Just a delight. Thank you so much. I had a great time talking to you. NOAHIt's been a pleasure, fellas. Thank you for having me on.

“If I can use multiple variables to make someone get better, that will be much more sustainable, and that person will be much healthier, explains Jim Laird, Strength & Conditioning Coach. In today's episode, guest hosts Jim Laird and Dr. Leland Stillman return to discuss adjusting your circadian clock during daylight savings and how light aids with athletic performance. Through their knowledge of quantum biology, they share what it means to be a quantum athlete and healthier individual overall. With our modern lifestyles, we are constantly indoors, negatively affecting our fitness and health. For instance, if we expose ourselves to blue light at night, our bodies believe its day time, which throws off the regeneration process of our mitochondria. Without proper sleep, we cannot optimize our physical performance and fulfill our athletic goals. To counteract this, find time to go outside and take in that natural light our bodies are meant to have. Quantum Health is changing how athletes train. Learn more about how light boosts sports recovery, red infrared light's melatonin-boosting effects, and the types of devices Dr. Leland recommends. Quotes “We've built this modern lifestyle that's taking people away from nature, and eventually, people will have to figure out some ways to work around that.” (11:42-12:38 | Jim) “You've got to get bright, visible light during the day. And you've got to avoid blue and green light at night if you're going to have a healthy sleep for optimal performance.” (15:26-15:36 | Dr. Leland) “When it comes to athletes, what they need to understand is their performance is strongly linked to light signals in their environment because the stronger their circadian rhythms are, and the more light they're exposed to during the day, the better they're going to perform.” (22:47-23:04 | Dr. Leland)  “If I can use multiple variables to make someone get better, that will be much more sustainable, and that person will be much healthier.” (41:40-41:47 | Jim) “​​If you're not buying a lens that's dark red or orange, it's not blocking an adequate amount of blue light to protect your circadian rhythms at night.” (49:21-49:30 | Dr. Leland) Links Connect with Dr. Leland Stillman: Website: https://stillmanmd.com/ Instagram: @stillmanMD Substack: https://stillmanmd.substack.com/   Connect with Jim Laird: Instagram: @gymlaird   To find a practitioner who understand the health principles of quantum biology: www.quantumbiologycollective.org  To become a QBC member and get invites to live deep dives & access to our video library: www.quantumhealthtv.com  To take our 8 week practitioner certification in the science of quantum biology so that you can add it to your existing area of expertise: www.appliedquantumbiology.com    Follow on Twitter, Instagram & Facebook: @quantumhealthtv    Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncFy1zRA9HM 28 DAYS LATER Written by Alex Garland CLOSE ON A MONITOR SCREEN: Images of stunning violence. Looped. Soldiers in a foreign war shoot an unarmed civilian at point- blank range; a man is set on by a frenzied crowd wielding clubs and machetes; a woman is necklaced while her killers cheer and howl. Pull back to reveal that we are seeing one of many screens in a bank of monitors, all showing similar images... Then revealing that the monitors are in a... INT. SURGICAL CHAMBER - NIGHT ...surgical chamber. And watching the screens is a... ...chimp, strapped to an operating table, with its skull dissected open, webbed in wires and monitoring devices, muzzled with a transparent guard. Alive. Behind the surgical chamber, through the wide doorframe, we can see a larger laboratory beyond. INT. BRIGHT CORRIDOR - NIGHT A group of black-clad ALF Activists, all wearing balaclavas, move down a corridor. They carry various gear - bag, bolt cutters. As they move, one Activist reaches up to a security camera and sprays it black with an aerosol paint can. INT. LABORATORY - NIGHT The Activists enter the laboratory. CHIEF ACTIVIST Fucking hell... The Chief Activist takes his camera off his shoulder and starts taking photos. The room is huge and long, and darkened except for specific pools of light. Partially illuminated are rows of cages with clear perspex doors. They run down either side of the room. In the cages are chimpanzees. 2. Most are in a state of rabid agitation, banging and clawing against the perspex, baring teeth through foam-flecked mouths. They reach the far end of the lab, where on a huge steel operating table they see the dissected chimp. FEMALE ACTIVIST Oh God... The dissected chimp's eyes flick to the Activists. Blood wells from around the exposed brain tissue. Tears starts to roll down the Female Activist's cheeks. CHIEF ACTIVIST (to Female Activist) Keep your shit together. If we're going to get them out of here... The Finnish Activist is checking the perspex cages. FINNISH ACTIVIST I can pop these, no problem. CHIEF ACTIVIST So get to it. The Finnish Activist raises his crowbar and sticks it around the edge of one of the doors - about to prise it open. At the moment, the doors to the laboratory bang open. The Activists all turn. Standing at the entrance is the Scientist. A pause. The Scientist jumps to a telephone handset on the wall and shouts into the receiver. SCIENTIST Security! We have a break-in! Get to sector... A hand slams down the disconnect button. SCIENTIST ...nine. The Chief Activist plucks the receiver from the Scientist's hands, and then rips the telephone from the wall. A beat. 3. SCIENTIST I know who you are, I know what you think you're doing, but you have to listen to me. You can't release these animals. CHIEF ACTIVIST If you don't want to get hurt, shut your mouth, and don't move a fucking muscle. SCIENTIST (BLURTS) The chimps are infected! The Activists hesitate, exchanging a glance. SCIENTIST (continuing; stumbling, FLUSTERED) These animals are highly contagious. They've been given an inhibitor. CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? SCIENTIST Chemically restricted, locked down to a... a single impulse that... CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? The Scientist hesitates before answering. SCIENTIST Rage. Behind the Activists, the bank of monitors show the faces of the machete-wielding crowd. SCIENTIST (desperately trying to EXPLAIN) In order to cure, you must first understand. Just imagine: to have power over all the things we feel we can't control. Anger, violence... FINNISH ACTIVIST What the fuck is he talking about? 4. CHIEF ACTIVIST We don't have time for this shit! Get the cages open! SCIENTIST No! CHIEF ACTIVIST We're going, you sick bastard, and we're taking your torture victims with us. SCIENTIST NO! You must listen! The animals are contagious! The infection is in their blood and saliva! One bite and... FEMALE ACTIVIST They won't bite me. The Female Activist crouches down to face the wild eyes of the infected chimp behind the perspex. SCIENTIST STOP! You have no idea! The Scientist makes a desperate lunge towards her, but the Chief Activist grabs him. FEMALE ACTIVIST Good boy. You don't want to bite me, do you? The Female Activist gives a final benign smile, then the Finnish Activist pops open the door. SCIENTIST NO! Like a bullet from a gun, the infected chimp leaps out at the Female Activist - and sinks its teeth into her neck. She reels back as the chimp claws and bites with extraordinary viciousness. At the same moment, a deafening alarm begins to sound. FEMALE ACTIVIST (SHRIEKING) Get it off! Get if off! The Finnish Activist rips the ape off and throws it on to the floor. The infected chimp immediately bites into the man's leg. He yells with pain, and tries to kick it off. 5. Behind him, the Female Activist has started to scream. She doubles up, clutching the side of her head. FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! Jesus! Help me! SCIENTIST We have to kill her! FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! I'm burning! CHIEF ACTIVIST What's... SCIENTIST We have to kill her NOW! Meanwhile, the Female Activist's cries have become an unwavering howl of pain - and she is joined by the Finnish Activist, whose hands have also flown to the side of his head, gripping his temples as if trying to keep his skull from exploding. CHIEF ACTIVIST What's wrong with them? The Scientist grabs a desk-lamp base and starts running towards the screaming Female Activist... ...who has ripped off her balaclava - revealing her face - the face of an Infected. She turns to the Scientist. SCIENTIST Oh God. She leaps at him. He screams as they go tumbling to the ground. The Chief Activist watches in immobile horror as she attacks the Scientist with amazing ferocity. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Another ACTIVIST makes his way down the corridor towards the lab. ACTIVIST (HISSES) Terry? Jemma? 6. No answer. ACTIVIST Mika? Where are you? He reaches the door to the lab, which is closed - and... ...as he opens it, we realize the door is also soundproofed. A wall of screaming hits him. He stands in the doorway - stunned by the noise, and then the sight. Blood, death, and his colleagues, all Infected. ACTIVIST Bloody hell. The Infected rush him. FADE TO BLACK. TITLE: 28 DAYS LATER INT. HOSPITAL ROOM - LATE AFTERNOON Close up of Jim, a young man in his twenties, wearing pale green hospital pyjamas. He has a month's beard, is dishevelled, and asleep. We pull back to see that Jim is lying on a hospital bed, in a private room. Connected to his arms are multiple drips, a full row of four or five on each side of his bed. Most of the bags are empty. Jim's eyes open. He looks around with an expression of confusion. Then he sits up. He is weak, but he swings his legs off the bed and stands. The attached drips are pulled with him and clatter to the floor. Jim winces, and pulls the taped needles from his arm. JIM Ow... His voice is hoarse, his mouth dry. Massaging his throat, he walks to the door. 7. INT. COMA WARD - LATE AFTERNOON The door to Jim's hospital room is locked. The key is on the floor. He picks it up and opens the door. Jim exits into a corridor. At the far end, a sign read: COMA WARD. There is no sign of life or movement. Jim walks down the corridor. One of the doors is half-open. From inside, there is the sound of buzzing flies. INT. HOSPITAL WARDS - LATE AFTERNOON Jim moves as quickly as he can through the hospital, still weak, but now driven by adrenaline. All the wards and corridors are deserted. Medical notes and equipment lie strewn over the floors, trolleys are upended, glass partition doors are smashed. In a couple of places, splashes of dried blood arc up the walls. He reaches A&E. On one wall is a row of public pay phones. He lifts a receiver, and the line is dead. He goes down the line, trying them all. In the corner of the A&E reception is a smashed soft-drinks machine, with a few cans collected at the base. Jim grabs one, rips off the ring-pull and downs it in one go. Then he grabs another, and heads for the main doors. EXT. HOSPITAL - LATE AFTERNOON Jim exits and walks out into the bright daylight of the forecourt. The camera begins to pull away from him. JIM Hello? Aside from a quiet rush of wind, there is silence. No traffic, no engines, no movement. Not even birdsong. EXT. LONDON - SUNDOWN Jim walks through the empty city, from St. Thomas's Hospital, over Westminster Bridge, past the Houses of Parliament, down Whitehall, to Trafalgar Square. 8. A bright overhead sun bleaches the streets. A light drifts litter and refuse. Cars lie abandoned, shops looted. Jim is still wearing his hospital pyjamas, and carries a plastic bag full of soft-drink cans. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD/CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks. Night has fallen. He needs to find a place to rest... He pauses. Down a narrow side street is a church. He walks towards it. The front doors are open. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks inside, moving with the respectful quietness that people adopt when entering a church. The doors ahead to the main chamber are closed. Pushing them, gently trying the handle, it is obvious they are locked. But another open door is to his left. He goes through it. INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Jim moves up a stairwell. Written large on the wall is a single line of graffiti: REPENT. THE END IS EXTREMELY FUCKING NIGH INT. CHURCH - GALLERY LEVEL - NIGHT Jim moves into the gallery level, and sees, through the dust and rot, ornate but faded splendor. At the far end, a stained- glass window is illuminated by the moonlight. Jim pads in, stands at the gallery, facing the stained-glass window for a moment before looking down... Beneath are hundreds of dead bodies. Layered over the floor, jammed into the pews, spilling over the altar. The scene of an unimaginable massacre. Jim stands, stunned. Then sees, standing motionless at different positions facing away from him, four people. Their postures and stillness make their status unclear. Jim hesitates before speaking. 9. JIM ...Hello? Immediately, the four heads flick around. Infected. And the next moment, there is the powerful thump of a door at the far end of the gallery. Jim whirls to the source as the Infected below start to move. The door thumps again - another stunningly powerful blow, the noise echoing around the chamber. Confused, fist closing around his bag of soft drinks, Jim steps onto the gallery, facing the door... ...and it smashes open. Revealing an Infected Priest - who locks sight on Jim, and starts to sprint. JIM Father? The Priest is half way across the gallery JIM Father, what are you... And now the moonlight catches the Priest's face. Showing clearly: the eyes. The blood smeared and collected around his nose, ears, and mouth. Darkened and crusted, accumulated over days and weeks. Fresh blood glistening. JIM Jesus! In a movement of pure instinct, Jim swings the bag just as the Priest is about to reach him - and connects squarely with the man's head. JIM Oh, that, was bad, that was bad... I shouldn't have done that... He breaks into a run... INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Down the stairwell... 10. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT ...into the front entrance, where the locked door now strains under the blows of the Infected inside. JIM Shit. EXT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim sprints down the stone steps. As he reaches the bottom the doors are broken open, and the Infected give chase. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim runs - the Infected have almost reached him. A hand fires up a Zippo lighter, and lights the rag of a Molotov cocktail. As Jim runs, something flies past his head, and the Infected closest to him explodes in a ball of flame. Jim turns, and sees as another Molotov cocktail explodes, engulfing two in the fireball. He whirls, now completely bewildered. WOMAN'S VOICE HERE! Another Molotov cocktail explodes. The Infected stagger from the blaze, on fire. WOMAN'S VOICE OVER HERE! Jim whirls again, and sees, further down the road... ...Selena, a black woman, also in her twenties. She wears a small backpack, a machete is stuck into her belt - and she holds a lit Molotov cocktail in her hand. ...Mark, a tall, good-looking man - throwing another bottle. It smashes on the head of the last Infected, bathing it in flame... The burning Infected bumps blindly into a car. Falls. Gets up again. 11. Blindly, it staggers off the road, into a petrol station - where an abandoned car has run over on the pumps. The ground beneath it suddenly ignites, and the petrol station explodes. EXT. SIDE STREET - NIGHT Selena and Mark lead Jim into a side street. JIM (DAZED) Those people! Who were... who... MARK This way! Move it! Jim allows himself to be hurried along. EXT. SHOP - NIGHT Selena stops outside a newsagent's shop. The shop's door and windows are covered with a metal security grill, but the grill over the door lock has been prised away enough for Selena to slip her hand through to the latch. INT. SHOP - NIGHT Inside, most of the shelves have been emptied of confectionery. Newspapers and magazines litter the floor. The magazine covers of beautiful girls and sports cars have become instant anachronisms. At the back of the shop, a makeshift bed of sheets and sleeping bag is nestled. This has obviously been Selena and Mark's home for the last few days. INT. NEWSAGENT - NIGHT Jim, Mark and Selena enter the newsagent's and pull down the grill. MARK A man walks into a bar with a giraffe. They each get pissed. The giraffe falls over. The man goes to leave and the barman says, you can't leave that lying there. The man says, it's not a lion. It's a giraffe. 12. Silence. Mark pulls off his mask and turns to Selena. MARK He's completely humorless. You two will get along like a house on fire. Selena, who has already taken off her mask, ignores Mark. SELENA Who are you? You've come from a hospital. MARK Are you a doctor? SELENA He's not a doctor. He's a patient. JIM I'm a bicycle courier. I was riding a package from Farringdon to Shaftesbury Avenue. A car cut across me... and then I wake up in hospital, today... I wake up and I'm hallucinating, or... MARK What's your name? JIM Jim. MARK I'm Mark. This is Selena. (BEAT) Okay, Jim. We've got some bad news. Selena starts to tell her story, and as the story unfolds we see the images she describes. SELENA It began as rioting. And right from the beginning, you knew something bad was going on because the rioters were killing people. And then it wasn't on the TV anymore. It was in the street outside. It was coming through your windows. We all guessed it was a virus. An infection. You didn't need a doctor to tell you that. It was the blood. 13. Something in the blood. By the time they tried to evacuate the cities, it was already too late. The infection was everywhere. The army blockades were overrun. And that was when the exodus started. The day before the radio and TV stopped broadcasting there were reports of infection in Paris and New York. We didn't hear anything more after that. JIM Where are your families? MARK They're dead. SELENA Yours will be dead too. JIM No... No! I'm going to find them. They live in Greenwich. I can walk. (heading for the exit) I'm going to... to go and... SELENA You'll go and come back. JIM (pulling at the grill) Yes! I'll go and come back. MARK Rules of survival. Lesson one - you never go anywhere alone, unless you've got no choice. Lesson two - you only move during daylight, unless you've got no choice. We'll take you tomorrow. Then we'll all go and find your dead parents. Okay? EXT. TRAIN TRACKS - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark walk along the Docklands Light Railway in single file. Ahead is a train. Behind the train, as if spilled in its wake, are abandoned bags, suitcases, backpacks. Mark drops pace to let Jim catch up. 14. MARK How's your head? Fucked? No reply. MARK (gesturing at the city) I know where your head is. You're looking at these windows, these millions of windows, and you're thinking - there's no way this many people are dead. It's just too many windows. Mark picks up a handbag from the tracks. MARK The person who owned this bag. Can't be dead. Mark reaches in and starts to pull things out as they walk, discarding the personal possessions. MARK A woman - (car keys) - who drove a Nissan Micra - (teddy) - and had a little teddy bear - (condoms) - and carried protection, just in case. Marks tosses the condoms behind him. MARK (DRY) Believe me, we won't need them anymore than she will. He hands the bag to Jim and walks ahead. Jim pulls out a mobile phone. He switches it on. It reads: SEARCHING FOR NETWORK. The message blinks a couple of times. Then the screen goes blank. Jim looks left. He is now alongside the train. The inside of the windows are smeared with dried blood. Pressed against the glass is the face of a dead man. 15. Jim drops the phone and breaks into a run - running past Mark and Selena. MARK (HISSING) Hey! EXT. GREENWICH COMMON - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark jog across Greenwich Common. Jim gestures towards one of the streets on the far side of the green. JIM (LOW VOICE) Down there. Westlink Street. Second on the left. EXT. WESTLINK STREET - DAY The street is modest red-brick semi-detached houses. They stand outside Number 43. Jim waits while Selena scans the dark facade. SELENA If there's anyone in there who isn't human... JIM I understand. SELENA Anyone. JIM I understand. Selena shoots a glance at Jim. Jim is gazing at the house. MARK Okay. EXT. BACK GARDEN - DAY Jim uses the key under the flowerpot to open the back door. INT. HOUSE - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark move quietly through the kitchen and the downstairs of the house. 16. Surprisingly, everything is neat and tidy. Washed plates are stacked by the sink, newspapers on the table are neatly piled. The headline on the top paper reads simply: CONTAINMENT FAILS. They reach the bottom of the stairs. Selena gestures upwards, and Jim nods. They start to ascend. At the top of the stairs, Selena sniffs the air, and recoils. Jim has noticed it too. His eyes widen in alarm. MARK (WHISPERS) Wait. But Jim pushes past and advances along the top landing, until he reaches a door. By now the smell is so bad that he is having to cover his nose and mouth with the sleeve of one arm. Jim pushes open the door. Inside, two decomposed bodies lie side by side on the bed, intertwined. On the bedside table are an empty bottle of sleeping pills and a bottle of red wine. Mark appears behind him. Jim stares at his parents for a couple of moments, then Mark closes the door. INT. BATHROOM - DAY Jim sits on the toilet, alone. He is crying. In his hand is a piece of paper: "Jim - with endless love, we left you sleeping. Now we're sleeping with you. Don't wake up." The paper crumples in his fist. INT. LIVING ROOM - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark sit in the living room, on the two sofas. Jim looks dazed, uncomprehending. Selena watches Jim, her expression neutral. SELENA They died peacefully. You should be grateful. JIM I'm not grateful. Jim's words hang a moment. Then Mark talks, simply, unemotionally, matter-of-fact throughout. 17. MARK The roads out were all jammed. So we went to Paddington Station. Hoping: maybe we could get to Heathrow, maybe buy our way on a plane. My dad had all this cash, even though cash was already useless, and Mum had her jewellery. But twenty thousand other people had the same idea. (A MOMENT) The crowd was surging, and I lost my grip on my sister's hand. I remember realizing the ground was soft. I looked down, and I was standing on people. Like a carpet, people who had fallen, and... somewhere in the crowd there were infected. It spread fast, no one could run, all you could do was climb. Over more people. So I did that. I got up, somehow, on top of a kiosk. (A MOMENT) Looking down, you couldn't tell which faces were infected and which weren't. With the blood, the screaming, they all looked the same. And I saw my dad. Not my mum or my sister. But I saw my dad. His face. A short silence. MARK Selena's right. You should be grateful. SELENA We don't have time to get back to the shop before dark. We should stay here tonight. Jim nods. He isn't sure what he wants to say. JIM My old room was at the end of the landing. You two take it. I'll sleep down here. SELENA We'll sleep in the same room. It's safer. 18. EXT. LONDON - DAY TO NIGHT The red orb of the sun goes down; the light fades. As night falls, London vanishes into blackness, with no electric light to be seen. Then the moon appears from behind the cloud layer, and the dark city is revealed. INT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim is on the sofa. In the moonlight, we can see that his eyes are open, wide awake. Selena is curled on the other sofa, and Mark is on the floor - both asleep. The house is silent. Jim watches Selena sleeping for a couple of moments. Then, quietly, he gets off the sofa and pads out of the living room, down the hall to the kitchen. INT. KITCHEN - NIGHT Jim enters, standing just inside the doorway. He looks around the room. On one wall, a faded kid's drawing of a car is framed. Above the counter, on a shelf of cookery books, an album has a handwritten label on the spine: "Mum's Favorite Recipes". Jim walks to the fridge. Stuck to the door is a photo of Jim with his parents, arm in arm, smiling at the camera. Jim is on his mountain bike, wearing his courier bag. FLASH CUT TO: Jim, sitting at the kitchen table as his Mum enters, carrying bags of shopping. Jim walks over to the bags and pulls out a carton of orange juice, which he pulls straight to his mouth and begins to gulp down. His Dad walks in from the garden. JIM'S DAD Give me a glass of that, would you? JIM (draining the carton, and giving it a shake) It's empty. CUT BACK TO: 19. Jim touches the photo, their faces, lightly. Jim is facing away from the back door, which has a large frosted-glass panel. Through the glass panel, unseen by Jim a dark silhouette looms against the diffused glow from the moonlight. Through the kitchen window, a second silhouette appears. Then there is a scratching noise from the back door. Jim freezes. Slowly, he turns his head, and sees the dark shapes behind the door and window. A beat - then the door is abruptly and powerfully smashed in. It flies open, and hangs loosely held by the bottom hinge. Standing in the doorframe is an Infected Man. Jim shouts with alarm as the Man lunges at him - and they both go tumbling to the floor. At the same moment, the figure behind the kitchen window smashes the glass, and an Infected Teenage Girl starts to clamber through the jagged frame. The Man gets on top of Jim, while Jim uses his arms to hold back the ferocious assault. A single strand of saliva flies from the Man's lips, and contacts Jim's cheek. JIM (SCREAMS) Help! Suddenly, Selena is there, holding her machete. The blade flashes down to the back of the Man's neck. Blood gushes. Jim rolls the Infected Man off, just in time to see... ...Mark dispatch the Girl half way through the kitchen window. The Girl is holding Mark, but her legs are caught on the broken glass. Mark jabs upwards into the Girl's torso - she stiffens, then slumps, and as Mark steps back we see he is holding a knife. Jim hyperventilates, staring at the corpse on the kitchen floor. JIM It's Mr. Bridges... Selena turns to Jim. She is hyperventilating too, but there is control and steel in her voice. 20. SELENA Were you bitten? JIM He lives four doors down... Jim turns to the Girl sprawled half way through the window. JIM That's his daughter... SELENA Were you bitten? Jim looks at her. Selena is still holding her machete at the ready. JIM No... No! I wasn't! SELENA Did any of the blood get in your mouth? JIM No! SELENA Mark? Jim turns to Mark. He is standing in the middle of the room. Stepped away from the window. The Girl's blood is on his arm - and he is wiping it away... ...off the skin... where a long scratch cut wells up fresh blood. A moment. Then Mark looks at Selena, as if slightly startled. MARK Wait. But Selena is swiping with her machete. Mark lifts his arm instinctively, defensively, and the blade sinks in. Selena immediately yanks it back. MARK DON'T! Selena swipes again - and the blade catches Mark hard in the side of the head. Mark falls. 21. Jim watches, scrabbling backwards on the floor away from them, as Selena brutally finishes Mark off. Selena looks at Mark's body for a couple of beats, then lowers the blade. She picks up a dishcloth from the sink counter and tosses it to Jim. SELENA Get that cleaned off. Jim picks up the rag and hurriedly starts to wipe the Infected's blood from around his neck. SELENA Do you have any clothes here? JIM (fazed, frightened of her) I... I don't know. I think so. SELENA Then get them. And get dressed. We have to leave, now. With practiced speed, Selena starts to open the kitchen cupboards, selecting packets of biscuits and cans from the shelves, and stuffing them into her backpack. SELENA More infected will be coming. They always do. EXT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim and Selena exit the front door. Jim has changed out of his hospital gear into jeans and a sweatshirt. He also has a small backpack, and is carrying a baseball bat. EXT. LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk: fast, alert. But something is not being said between them... until Jim breaks the silence. JIM (QUIET) How did you know? Selena says nothing. Continues walking. JIM (INSISTENT) How did you know he was infected? 22. SELENA The blood. JIM The blood was everywhere. On me, on you, and... SELENA (CUTTING IN) I didn't know he was infected. Okay? I didn't know. He knew. I could see it in his face. (A MOMENT) You need to understand, if someone gets infected, you've got somewhere between ten and twenty seconds to kill them. They might be your brother or your sister or your oldest friend. It makes no difference Just so as you know, if it happens to you, I'll do it in a heartbeat. A moment. JIM How long had you known him? SELENA Five days. Or six. Does it matter? Jim says nothing. SELENA He was full of plans. Long-distance weapons, so they don't get close. A newsagent's with a metal grill, so you can sleep. Petrol bombs, so the blood doesn't splash. Selena looks at Jim dispassionately. SELENA Got a plan yet, Jim? You want us to find a cure and save the world? Or fall in love and fuck? Selena looks away again. SELENA Plans are pointless. Staying alive is as good as it gets. Silence. 23. They walk. Jim following a few steps behind Selena. A few moments later, Jim lifts a hand, opens his mouth, about to say something - but Selena cuts him off without even looking round. SELENA Shhh. She has seen something... A line of tower blocks some distance away, standing against the night sky. In one of them, hanging in the window of one of the highest stories, colored fairy lights are lit up, blinking gently. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk through the smashed glass doors of the tower block. It is extremely dark inside. Selena switches on a flashlight and illuminates the entrance hall. It is a mess. The floor is covered in broken glass and dried blood. The lift doors are jammed open, and inside is a dense bundle of rags - perhaps an old corpse, but impossible to tell, because the interior of the lift has been torched. It is black with carbon, and smoke-scarring runs up the outside wall. Selena moves the flashlight to the stairwell. There is a huge tangle of shopping trolleys running up the stairs. Selena gives one of the trolleys an exploratory tug. It shifts, but holds fast, meshed in with its neighbor. Then she puts a foot into one of the grates, and lifts herself up. Shining her light over the top of the tangle, she can see a gap along the top. JIM Let's hope we don't have to get out of here in a hurry. She begins to climb through. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena move steadily and quietly up the stairwell, into the building. Reaching a next landing, they check around the corner before proceeding. Through a broken window, we can see that they are already high above most London buildings, and on the wall a sign reads: LEVEL 5. 24. SELENA Need a break? JIM (completely out of breath) No. You? SELENA No. They continue a few steps. JIM I do need a break, by the way. Selena nods. They stop on the stairs. Jim slips off his backpack and sits, pulling a face as he does so... SELENA What's up? JIM Nothing. She gives him a cut-the-crap expression. JIM I've got a headache. SELENA Bad? JIM Pretty bad. SELENA Why didn't you say something before? JIM Because I didn't think you'd give a shit. A moment, where it's unclear how Selena will react to this. Then she slips off her own backpack. SELENA (going through the bag) You've got no fat on you, and all you've had to eat is sugar. So you're crashing. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot we can do about that... 25. Selena starts to produce a wide selection of pills, looted from a chemist. SELENA ...except pump you full painkillers, and give you more sugar to eat. She holds up a bottle of codeine tablets, and passes it to Jim. SELENA As for the sugar: Lilt or Tango? JIM (CHEWING CODEINE) ...Do you have Sprite? SELENA Actually, I did have a can of Sprite, but... Suddenly there is a loud scream, coming from somewhere lower down the building. Jim and Selena both make a grab for their weapons. JIM Jesus! SELENA Quiet. The scream comes again. The noise is chilling, echoing up the empty stairwell. But there is something strange about it. The noise is human, but oddly autistic. It is held for slightly too long, and stops abruptly. SELENA That's an infected. Then, the sound of metal scraping, clattering the blockade. SELENA They're in. INT. SHOPPING TROLLEY BLOCKADE - NIGHT Two Infected, a Young Asian Guy and a Young White Guy, moving with amazing speed over the blockade. 26. INT. STAIRS - NIGHT Jim and Selena sprint up the stairs. Behind them, we can hear the Infected, giving chase, howling. They pass level eight, nine, ten... Jim is exhausted. SELENA Come on! JIM (out of breath, barely able to speak) I can't. Selena continues, and Jim looks over the edge of the stairwell, to the landing below... ...where the two Infected appear, tearing around the corner. INT. STAIRWELL - NIGHT Selena sprints up the stairs... and Jim sprints past her, in an amazing burst of energy and speed. They round another bend in the stairwell... ...then both Jim and Selena scream. Standing directly in front of them is a Man In Riot Cop Gear - helmet with full visor, gloves, a riot shield in one hand, and a length of lead pipe in the other. The Man lunges past both of them, barging past, where the Infected White Man has appeared at the stairwell. The Riot Gear Man swings his lead pipe and connects viciously with the White Man's head. The White Man falls backwards against the Asian Man. Both fall back down the stairs. The Riot Gear Man turns back to Jim and Selena. MAN Down the corridor! Flat 157! Jim and Selena are stunned, but start to run down the corridor. The Asian Man is coming back up the stairs. Jim looks back over his shoulder in time to see the Riot Gear Man deliver a massive blow to the Asian Man's head. 27. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Jim and Selena run towards Flat 157. The door is open, but as they approach, it suddenly slams shut. JIM AND SELENA (hammering on the door) Let us in! GIRL (O.S.) Who is it? SELENA Let us in! The door opens a fraction, on the chain. The face of a girl appears. She is fourteen, pale, solemn-faced. GIRL Where's Dad? Jim looks back down the corridor. At the far end, the Man appears. He is holding the limp body of one of the Infected - and he tips it over the balcony, where it drops down the middle of the stairwell. MAN (CALLS BACK) It's okay, Hannah. Let them inside. The door closes, we hear the chain being slipped off, then it opens again. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim and Selena enter past the pale-faced girl. The flat is council, three-bed, sixteenth floor of the block. It has patterned wallpaper, and nice but boring furnishings. It is lit by candles. The entrance hall leads straight to the living room, which has French windows and a small balcony outside. On one wall, a framed photograph hangs, which shows the Man standing beside a black taxi cab. Next to him is a middle aged woman - presumably the Man's wife. Hannah sits at the cab's steering wheel, beaming. Another photo, beside, show Hannah sat in the seat of a go- kart. The Man follows Jim and Selena inside. 28. MAN Come in, come in. They follow the Man through to the living room, and Hannah recloses the front door, which has an impressive arrangement of locks and dead-bolts. INT. FLAT - LIVING ROOM - NIGHT In the living room, the fairy lights hang in the window, powered by a car battery. Lit by their glow, the Man goes through a careful ritual of shedding his gear, helped by Hannah. First, he lays down the riot shield. Then he puts the bloodsmeared lead pipe on a small white towel. Next, he removes his gloves - and places them beside the bar on the towel. Then he folds the towel over the weapon and gloves, and puts it beside the riot shield. Finally he removes the visored helmet. Jim and Selena watch him. They look pretty rattled, not really knowing what to expect. After the Man has finished shedding his gear, he turns. MAN So... I'm Frank, anyway. He extends his hand to Jim and Selena. Jim hesitates very briefly, then shakes it. JIM I'm Jim. SELENA Selena. Frank beams, and suddenly he seems much less frightening and imposing. If anything, he is just as nervous as Jim and Selena. FRANK Jim and Selena. Good to meet you. And this is my daughter, Hannah. (turning to Hannah) ...Come on, sweetheart. Say hello. Hannah takes a step into the room, but says nothing. FRANK So... so this is great. Just great. It calls for a celebration. 29. I'd say. Why don't you all sit down, and... Hannah, what have we got to offer? HANNAH (QUIETLY) We've got Mum's creme de menthe. An awkward beat. FRANK Yes, her creme de menthe. Great. Look, sit, please. Get comfortable. Sit tight while I get it. Frank exits. Selena, Jim and Hannah all stand, until Selena gestures at the sofa. SELENA Shall we? Jim and Selena take the sofa. Hannah stays standing. FRANK (O.S.) Where are the bloody glasses? HANNAH Middle cupboard. FRANK (O.S.) No! The good ones! This is a celebration! HANNAH Top cupboard. Another short, uncomfortable pause. Hannah looks at Jim and Selena from her position near the doorway. Her expression is blank and unreadable. JIM This is your place, then. Hannah nods. JIM It's nice. Hannah nods again. Frank re-enters. Frank is beaming, holding the creme de menthe, and four wine glasses. 30. FRANK There! I know it isn't much but... well, cheers! EXT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT The moon shines above the tower block. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim, Selena and Hannah all sit in the living room, sipping creme de menthe. Frank is disconnecting the fairy lights as he talks, and pulling the curtains closed, rather systematically checking for cracks along the edges. FRANK Normally we keep the windows covered at night, because the light attracts them. But when we saw your petrol station fire, we knew it had to be survivors... So we hooked up the Christmas tree lights. Like a beacon. Finished with the sofa, he sits on the armchair. SELENA We're grateful. FRANK Well, we're grateful you came. I was starting to really worry. Like I say, we haven't seen any sign of anyone normal for a while now. JIM There aren't any others in the building? Frank shakes his head. SELENA And you haven't seen any people outside? Frank's eyes flick to Hannah. FRANK We haven't left the block for more than two weeks. Stayed right here. Only sensible thing to do. Everyone who went out... 31. SELENA Didn't come back. FRANK And there's two hundred flats here. Most of them have a few cans of food, or cereal, or something. SELENA It's a good set-up. FRANK It isn't bad. He puts a hand on Hannah's shoulder, and gives it a squeeze. FRANK We've got by, haven't we? INT. BATHROOM - NIGHT

In this episode, I give a quick recap of  my interview with Jim Padilla including: - How to take your business from 6 to 7 figures and beyond- How to remove yourself from the sales process and make more money than ever before- Why he has invested over $500k into personal and business developmentAnd so much more...  Jim Padilla is on a mission to help entrepreneurs and purpose-driven thought-leaders untangle themselves from the day-to-day minutiae of seeking leads and sales for their business. And he would love to share his industry-leading sales system and strategies so entrepreneurs can go from six-figure success to seven-figure freedom.Click Here to connect with Jim*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like-minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.Follow me on Instagram: @ryanhorn25

Jim Padilla is on a mission to help entrepreneurs and purpose-driven thought-leaders untangle themselves from the day-to-day minutiae of seeking leads and sales for their business. And he would love to share his industry-leading sales system and strategies so entrepreneurs can go from six-figure success to seven-figure freedom.In this episode, we discuss:- How to take your business from 6 to 7 figures and beyond- How to remove yourself from the sales process and make more money than ever before- Why he has invested over $500k into personal and business developmentAnd so much more...  Click Here to connect with Jim**************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like-minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.Follow Ryan on Instagram: @ryanhorn25

Brenda and Dylan sneak around after Jim forbids that they see each other. I mean, what did you expect, Jim? You idiot. This is all your fault too, and you're losing your little girl forever. Cindy has very little to say.

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and as you know today is Primary Day in New Hampshire it is the Big Day for our State Sport - Politics.  That means it is the day to address voter manipulation, voter fraud, low tech solutions and why apps are not the answer. So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig You know, they don't release their source code, they hold everything close to the chest. They say, Well, you know, it's obscure people don't know what we're doing or how we're doing it; therefore, it's safe. That is never the case, and things are starting to turn around. So there are so many mistakes we could put a whole quarter together and how that poor people about it. Here's how not to do a deployment of software. Craig Hey, good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here, of course, on with Mr. Jim Polito. How could we be here on New Hampshire voting day without talking about politics and whether or not voting machines are hackable? So let's get into it. Jim Polito There are multiple levels to this one in New Hampshire. But this is important because We're going to Iowa. And we're going to the polls, the technical and have an election joining us now, our tech talk guru and good friend, Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Good morning. It sounds like you're going to hit for that Bernie screen there. Yeah. Jim Yeah, yeah. You were not going to do one of those. Hey, can we talk about election technology? I mean, what the heck happened in Iowa? I mean, really? Yeah, I know. We talked about it before, but what the heck happened? Craig Yeah, this is an excellent example of everything you should not do when it comes to launching an app when it comes to rolling out new software, whatever it is. The Iowa Democratic Party man, everybody in there. Should be Jeff can there's no question about it. You know, I work with the FBI, and I'm part of the FBI infragard program. And the FBI is excellent about trying to make sure that everybody's safe. Did you know that Homeland Security, the FBI reached out to the Iowa Democratic Party saying, "Hey, guys, we know you have an app, we know that you're looking to use this for all of the results and we are here to help." What you had in Iowa was a bunch of people that have never rolled out an app before. They built it quickly. Jim, I am talking about hastily built, it wasn't load tested. We already talked about the fact that it was made entirely by insiders of Democratic Party higher-ups inside. It's everything you wouldn't want. You know, if I were them, I would have had a completely dry run on this thing, which they kind of did. They had little test logins for people. And the way they did their dry run was minimal. And this is a dry run, use different account different ways of logging in a different place to log in than the real one. It was just a total disaster. Jim I'll tell you, you know, this is the second time that the Democrats have had a problem with something it refused the help of the FBI. Remember, you know, Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the hacking of the DNC and John Podesta's emails being leaked, okay. They didn't want any help with that, either. Then we have this happening. Now the first one, I think, might have been Russian hackers (phishers). This one, they hacked it up all by themselves and still didn't ask for help from the FBI. And here's the question, Could someone, a bad player from another country, have hacked into that app screwed the whole thing up? I mean, we don't have any evidence yet that it did happen. But the question is, could it have happened? Craig Well, and the answer to that is obviously, yes. One of the big things that we've been doing for years here in the application development business remember, I built some of the most prominent internet properties that ever existed. Jim You helped to invent the internet. That's not a joke, people. He wrote code that is still in use. Craig Yeah, exactly. And some of the big ones like the Big Yellow Super Pages, you've probably heard about that. Yeah. You know that these important things and one of the things that we do to help make sure The safe software systems are secure are we use something called open-source software. And open-source software is software where everyone can look at the code. So, for instance, the best application out there, if you want an end to end security is called signal app. It's free. The source code for this thing is available freely on the internet for anyone to inspect. And that's the opposite of what again, the Democratic Party did in Iowa, which is the used what would be called closed source, something in the industry we call security through obscurity. Jim And look at how well that's worked for Microsoft. Right. Craig You know, they, they don't release their source code but hold everything close. They say, Well, you know, it's obscure. People don't know what we're doing or how we're doing it. Therefore it says that is Never the case, and things are starting to turn around. So there are so many mistakes that we could put a whole course together at Harvard, for people about here's how not to do deploy software. Jim We're talking with our good friend Tech Talk Guru Craig Peterson. At the end of the segment, we're going to tell you how you can get your hands on some of his stuff. Craig will not bother you, so don't worry. So, Craig, that could have happened. They didn't use open source stuff. What about the rest of our election? I mean, they're, they're going to the polls in New Hampshire right now. I mean, can our election be hacked? Craig Yeah, that's a great question. And I think everybody's minds right now. I'm going to be on a TV station up in Burlington, Vermont. Speaking of obscure Jim Very good. Very good. Craig I wonder if the Soviet flag is still on the wall? I doubt it. Jim I wouldn't doubt it. Oh. Craig That's what we're going delve into because I think it's a question everybody's mind. There are multiple levels of hacks or numerous targets for hacks when it comes to our systems in the election. Now, I have to say, New Hampshire is what many people would call a Luddite. New Hampshire says, Hey, listen, we're going to go low tech. And you know what, that's my answer. They have resisted all these fancy computer systems, all of these new-fangled machines. In New Hampshire, when you vote, you use a pencil or a felt tip pen on a piece of paper. Yeah. And that's the only thing that they could hack. Then those ballots are kept so they a manual count can be done if needed. Back in 2000, New Hampshire had the option of using the the the hanging chads technique that used in Florida and New Hampshire avoided that. And now so here are the different levels you could hack the voting machines themselves and New Hampshire, again, is doing a great job. The not connected networked, let alone the internet. So that's step one. The FBI has been warning about is how Secretary of State's offices, websites, because what's been happening is a that is just crazy here. But those websites are being compromised by places like Ukraine, Russia. And others over the years and obviously, China. How are those used? For the ultimate reporting in some states, the local county chairs performing the counts, upload them directly to the website. The data goes on there. That is another place for hacks to occur. And then here's yet another opportunity for hacking, and that is those websites show faults resolved because nationally, their parties are going to the website to the sector state offices and pulling the final results. Then they can also be hacked up on the federal level because, again, they're also using computers. There are so many ways for hacking to happen, but I can feel comfortable in saying that the FBI is keeping a very close eye on this, Homeland Security is keeping a very close eye on this. And, you know, I think we can be moderately comfortable. Those types of hacks aren't happening. But then there's the non-hack hack, which is they buy advertising and try and get people to change their minds. Now, that happened last time around, but the Russians managed to buy ads to try and get your change your vote after the election occurred. Right. So it's right left and center in this day and age, Jim. Jim It is just crazy that the people, the democrats, in this case, won't take the help of the FBI. In protecting these things. I agree with you low tech is the best. Low tech is the best. Sure. You could have some person working in a clerk's office stuff the ballot box, okay, but you couldn't have a political hack that would overturn a question. The Presidential election it would be more difficult to coordinate that many people to do it. Craig Yes. And it's way more difficult today than it was just two years ago or four years ago because they're starting to figure it out. And many states are ditching those completely electronic voting machines. By the way, here, here's something we got to get changed. We have a federal law that requires every state to have electronic voting machines that can be used by the, you know, hearing impaired, sight impaired, etc. I agree we have to provide something that allows these people to vote, but again why not a low tech solution. We should assign a poll worker to help them fill out the ballot, as opposed to having a machine that essentially has a touchpad, which is hackable. Just last year, we had our black hat conference in Vegas. There they had a bunch of voting machines sitting there for hackers to try their skills. Within minutes, they were able to hack into every one of them, and even a high schooler was able to hack them. Jim Well, that's what you get, you know? I mean, there's, there are people like you who get it, you know, when they're very talented, but then we've got these kids who are growing up in a world where they can figure this out. Craig Yes, yeah. And, and it's a feather in their cap to their career. You know, we just had a bill passed in the Senate. That was, I think it's started in the Senate and then sent to the house. It called for white hat hackers. Good guys to try and hack federal government systems. Well, where do you get your chomps to be a white hat hacker? A lot of these kids will look at it and say all I was just a kid. Yeah, I was hacking businesses and government websites and, and I was able to do all of this. Now all of a sudden they get a job in the federal government that's well paid because they were bad guys when they were, you know, young. I get it. Jim All right. So, where can folks get more information from you? I take it that they text my name, Jim, to this number. Craig Absolutely. Couple of ways to do it. You can just go to Craig Peterson calm, or you can text Jim to 855-385-5553. That's just text, Jim to 855-385-5553, standard data and text rates apply. Jim Craig will not try to hack you. And Craig, we love having you every Tuesday at this time. Craig Hey, thanks, Jim. Jim All right. Have a good one, buddy. When we return a fight Word. You're listening, Craig Thanks for being with us. I have been so busy along with my team. You know, I've been saying this for about a month and, and it's right. We have some fantastic free training coming up. We have a course also coming up. It is going to be a killer month. Yes, indeed. That's kind of a hint, a killer month. All right, anyway, take care, everybody. We will be back. Just don't expect as much output from me this week with lives and everything else. Take care. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

  Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and I told him about Windows 7 no longer being supported with security updates and why all his listeners should definitely upgrade to Windows 10 if they were using Windows 7 to protect themselves. We talked about Apple and the FBI and the privacy and security that Apple has and why it is a bad idea to ever have a backdoor in an iPhone.  So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig This USB drive into the computer. And what it does is it uses the power coming from the computers like USB drive usually does. And it stores it up in a capacitor, and then it releases it all at once back into the computer. Craig Hey, good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here had a great little discussion with Mr. Polito this morning. He let me do a bit of freewheeling, and we usually don't do this. I suspect he lost my email between us, but we'll see what ended up happening. I may never find out, which means you may never find out either. But we didn't talk this morning about a couple of different things. A warning is an old warning. Hey, have you been listening to me for a long time you already knew this about USB devices, but I went over it again. Because somebody else pitched Mr. Polito with a story, I released it. Why broke what, like three or four years ago. And we also talked a little bit about chat. And an article in the Wall Street Journal this week. So here we go with Mr. Polito. Jim Here he is, folks, our tech guru. I'll tell you what he told us a long time ago, I think, Hey, you know, those public charging stations where you can charge your smartphone, hey, you might want to be careful with them because that's the way the bad guys can get into your phone. And lo and behold, checking my email this morning. And there's an email from some other person who considers them a tech themselves a tech talk guru, saying, hey, you should watch out for that woman. Come on. You show. No, thank you. We've already got the Tech Talk guru Craig Peters on our good friend. Good morning, sir. Craig Hey, good morning. I think that was what about that, at least two, maybe three or four years ago. Jim It was a while ago because Danny and I were looking at it and said, Hey, Craig talked about this a long time ago, we knew this already. Yeah, you plug your phone in there, the bad guys can get into your phone. Craig Yeah, there. There's an article this week that I shared with everybody about the FBI hacking into iPhones. Of course, the FBI right now is trying to get into some iPhones. They've done this before with the murder that happened down in San Bernardino. And that that became very, very high profile about three or four years ago. And the way they do that is the way they're able to hack into the older iPhones. It appears that they cannot get into the newest ones, but the older iPhones are exactly that connecting to the USB port on the iPhone. Wow. That's how they do it. So yeah, here, let's just tell everybody so they know we'll keep them up to date. There are a few problems that can occur. First of all, they can purposely destroy your device. Yeah, nowadays, a lot of computers use USBs, right? If you plug it in, there is a particular type of device that's very, very cheap. You can get them online, sometimes about less than ten bucks. And you can get them as a USB thumb drive. So you plug this USB drive into the computer. And what it does is it uses the power coming from the computers like USB drive usually does, and it stores it up in a capacitor, and then it releases it all at once back into the computer. And the very least it destroys your USB port, but more often it ruins the whole machine. So that's one problem with plugging into the power plugs or USB plugs at the airport. The other is your device could get hacked, just like the way the FBI has been trying to do it. And apparently Can't do it right now. Jim Yeah. Interesting. I did see that. So what's on the top of your agenda today? Craig Oh, man, there are so many things to discuss. But the first very first thing is everybody. We've had major, significant patches released on almost everything. Windows had critical security patches out, including the announcement that Windows seven is no longer getting security updates. It's about $80,000 a year for security updates for Windows seven, so unless you pay that you will not be getting them. Okay. Yeah. So this is as of last week. So last week was on set no more windows seven support. And then the day after the National Security Agency came out and said, Hey, by the way, there's a specific type of encryption so that if you try and encrypt/decrypt this, it isn't going to work, and it's completely fine passable. So a huge, huge problem, and it is the day after standard support for Windows seven. So step one this week update upgrade, okay, if you're running Windows seven, upgrade to Windows 10, Toronto. Jim Toronto. Wow. Wow. Craig So Good to know, and if you're not running Windows 10, update right away. Windows 10 has the same patch. Now, couldn't it be that you have a piece of equipment a piece of hardware that is so old that it will only run seven? Could that be the case? Yeah, Jim Could that be the case? Yeah, Craig Yeah, that's entirely possible. Now, it's not like it used to be where there's a new release of Windows, and it needed a much faster process, much more memory that is kind of behind us. But yeah, you might I have to tell you off, and I think this may be where you're coming from, that a lot of people don't upgrade. They just buy a new computer. And that's not A terrible, terrible idea to do to get a new computer and then make sure you patch it up. But if you're running anything older than Windows eight upgrade and if you're running Windows eight upgrade to Windows 10. I say upgrade! Jim Spoken like a genuine Apple guy. We're talking with our good friend Tech Talk guru Craig Peters on and at the end of this segment, we're going to tell you how you can get all this information from Craig and other updates essential updates, and no, he won't bother you, and won't send something to you that will fry your motherboard. No, he's not that kind of a guy. He's a good guy. Yeah, of course. Update to Apple because you love apple. Well, most people in the know who are smart like you love Apple. It's just those of us who don't want to pay for it. Craig Yeah, when you know you get right down to it when you're talking about paying for the Apple equipment, the hardware itself, if you were to configure a Windows computer, this with the same type and quality of hardware that Apple uses. We're talking about the same cards, with the same types of GPUs, and the same type and size of memory. Remember, it's not; it's not the size that necessarily matters is the speed of the RAM. The same kinds of drives, you know, the SSDs, and the superior Wi-Fi chips and everything else. So if you look at it as apples to apples just on the hardware, not talking about the operating system, when I've done this before, and every breakdown I've ever seen shows, Mac hardware is cheaper than Windows hardware equivalent windows hardware. Think about that when you're considering buying when a Windows machine. If you're going to a big box retailer, and you're paying, you know, 400 to 500 bucks for that laptop, you can now see why the expected life cycle of the average Windows laptop lasts is seven months. It is due to these cost reductions. Okay, so it's more expensive. Yeah, it is undoubtedly upfront. But these things typically last for five to 10 years. And they will serve you well during that time. So if you're looking to update up from Windows seven, indeed anything earlier, you probably want to get a new piece of hardware and to be very careful, because the cheap stuff out of China is exactly that, cheap. It is not very good. And if you want to kind of do a bit of an upgrade, go to a commercial computer provider of some sort. You can even call some of these companies right now. I have to say Dell is probably the best. But don't get the consumer version, get the professional version that's going to last you way longer serve you a lot better. And you're going to have fewer problems, frankly. That's why I recommend going to the next level, don't, but even if you're a home user, don't buy just the basic big box consumer-grade, if you can afford not to. Jim All right. A good bit of advice. We've got time for another important update. What else? What do you think would be most important to share? Craig  Any but I think the most right now important for people to be aware of is what the Wall Street Journal has this week. They have an article called Meet Chet. Now Chet, is this fictitious guy is going about doing the ordinary things we all do. And it's kind of a neat little graphic that they have. But they're pointing out shets employer knows everything about him during the day. Even if he's not using a company issued a smartphone, right, so he wakes up in the morning, and what does he do? He does email, so the business knows, okay, Chad at 631 this morning, check this email. It says Nick logs into the guest Wi-Fi connections at the coffee shop in the morning because they have software on his smartphone to help protect the company data. You must have the type of authentication that a lot of them are tracking Bluetooth, even the big box retailers, all of them. When you walk into the store, they're following your device. So does the office know because they're tracking him everywhere he goes in the building? They're using it to figure out if he is a critical employee because he's going into other people's offices and helping them and tracking his email. We got to remember that everything that we do nowadays unless you unplug entirely, and you're living in the middle of nowhere, writing these manifestos On an old provider, everything is tracked, including from your company. So check your company's policies on all of this. We have security policies that we can provide to companies that they can use. Many of the companies we work for doing this, and it is entirely legal, as long as they're telling you about some of this stuff that you don't want them to do. So it's not just the bad guys that are watching you they are. It's like President Trump, with the New York Times, was able to track President Trump's movements, and they through secret service and find out who the people were. And if your phone every night goes to the same place and stays there all night long. They can reasonably assume that you're at home. We've got to start being more conscious about stopping this stuff. Jim Fascinating. Alright, so you can get more conscious about this. You can do this by connecting with Craig Peterson, not only during this segment every Tuesday at this time, but connected so that he can send you up to the day, relevant information. That's easy for folks like us to understand. So what you do is you text my name, Jim J-I-M to this number Craig 855-385-5553. So text Jim, to 855-385-5553. Jim All right, standard data and text rates apply. And Craig won't bother you, and it's good to have him on your side. Craig. Excellent segment as usual, and we'll talk to you next week. Craig Hey, thanks, Jim. Take care Jim You too, Craig Peterson, everybody. Okay. When Return Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson  

Kendall Beushausen Emerson's Kendall Beushausen follows up his 5 Questions for Operational Certainty Consultant Kendall Beushausen podcast with this in-depth FIRSTHAND: Operational Certainty in Pod podcast. Kendall describes how the Internet of Things is all around us in our personal lives and how it is being applied in the manufacturing industries to improve business performance in many areas, especially reliability. We hope you'll enjoy this episode and will consider subscribing to the whole FIRSTHAND: Operational Certainty in Pod series on your iOS or Android mobile device. Transcript Jim: Hi everyone. This is Jim Cahill. And welcome to another edition of FIRSTHAND: A conversation with an operational certainty consultant. Today I'm joined by Kendall Beushausen and he's an Operational Certainty consultant based in South Carolina. You may have heard the earlier podcast on Kendall. He has a wealth of experience both in the Navy—the United States Navy—as well as some other companies before joining Emerson 11 years ago. And he has a wealth of experience in reliability. And today we're gonna talk a little bit about digital transformation and how that intersects with reliability. So welcome to the podcast, Kendall. Kendall: Thanks, Jim. Jim: All right. Let's start out by can you tell our listeners what is the internet of things and industrial internet of things which also go by IoT and IIoT? Kendall: Well, Jim, in the simplest form, IoT or IIoT is the idea of connected devices and, as you know, today we're living in a world with many, many devices that are connected to the internet, so to speak. Differentiating IoT and IIoT, IIoT is specifically to the industrial world, so it's industrial internet of things. Jim: You often hear with that digital transformation, so how would you describe digital transformation? Kendall: Digital transformation to me is simply what we do with these connected devices. The connected devices provide a wealth of information that make our lives easier, more convenient, etc. But what we do with that information is ultimately how our lives have changed and that also applies in the industrial world. How can this technology make our business better, easier, faster, safer? Jim: You know, I know it's all around us in our personal lives, even this podcast we're doing, people can subscribe to it, have it come to them, listen through their Bluetooth in their car, it's all in there. Can you share some examples maybe of digital transformation occurring in our personal lives? Kendall: Absolutely. Well, you hit on the podcast as an example, but I mean, let's talk about something as simple as the telephone. Twenty to 30 years ago, everyone had a landline in their house, and you had to run to the kitchen to answer the phone when it rang. Now we have these devices that we carry with us wherever we go, and not only can we call somebody on these phones, there's multiple means of communication through different applications such as texting, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. These all have different levels of involvement or complexities, let's say. But ultimately, the communications that we used to have 20, 30 years ago has significantly changed, we don't have to wait for somebody to get home to talk to them. We can send a message to find out if they're available to chat on the phone. Also on this phone, let's consider television or entertainment. When I was growing up, there were three stations, ABC, NBC, and CBS, and you can watch whatever you wanted as long as it was on their schedule. But today, we can use this same device to stream whatever show we want and as what's common now is binge-watching. So it's improved by entertainment world for those that are into movies and sitcoms, etc. Another good example is our health. I have several apps on my phone that help me track my health and my wellness through different applications. Some of them are exercise applications.

Welcome to the first episode of a weekly podcast that we will be doing here at Miracle Ford! In this episode, we talk with General Manager and part owner of Miracle, Jim Galvin. Jim talks about his beginnings in the business, the history of Miracle Ford, and the values that have held strong in the company from day 1. Enjoy! Transcript John Haggard: Welcome to the Miracle Ford of Gallatin podcast, where each week we hope you will be able to learn the best ways to purchase, maintain and accessorize your new or preowned vehicle and how to sell your vehicle for the highest resale value possible, when you’re ready. I’m your host John Haggard, and throughout each month, right here we’ll have different team members join us from Miracle Ford to bring you tips that you can use. And by the way, we will also post a transcript of each podcast so that you can easily refer to it, pull out that information that you need right there at your fingertips. Today on the podcast we have Jim Galvin, the general manager of Miracle Ford. Hey Jim. Jim Galvin: John, how are you doing? John Haggard: I’m doing well. I’m doing well. You know, a lot of people may not know this Jim, but you are actually more than just the general manager of Miracle Ford. In fact, you’re part of the local family that owns Miracle. So I thought it would be fun for folks to know a little bit more about you since you are home town and you are at the store as opposed to a corporate owner who lives in another city. So first question. People always want to know how someone got started in a business. So tell us a little bit about how you got started in the car business. Jim Galvin: John. Thank you. It’s quite interesting. I started back in 1984 washing cars for my father while working my way up through college at MTSU. There, I really got the idea, and said, you know what, this might be something I might want to look forward to. So I worked my way up through college and got to work also in each department as a service advisor, as a parts counter person, and then I went to the used car department and got to learn the appraising and how to do that. Then from there, I worked my way up to a sales manager and then from there as the GSM to a general manager and now part owner. But the neat part about the whole transition is that I got to, after I finished at MTSU, I enrolled at in NADA Academy Dealers school for two and a half years. I really got to learn the in’s and out’s of how to run a dealership, learn the financial statement, and really make my dreams come true. And I’ve been doing this now for close to 33 years now. John Haggard: 33 years. And so back in the day you started washing cars you said, so you got a good paycheck on that. Did that help you get through college as well? Jim Galvin: Well, it got me going back and forth to school with gas money and working my way through college, which was great. That was a great start. And just the fact that working hard back there and just knowing what to do really made the difference. Then I just knew from then that this might be the opportunity for me and it’s worked out since. John Haggard: So tell us how Miracle Ford itself got started. There are a lot of Ford dealers across the country of course, but there’s Miracle. How did you choose the name? Just a little bit about the history of how Miracle Ford itself came to be. Jim Galvin: Yes, I get that question all the time. A lot of people don’t know, but my father worked for Ford Motor Company. He worked there for 25 years and when he worked there, he called on this area here in Gallatin, which was Wade Motors. And when he called on here, he really said, you know, one day I would like to get out of the wholesale business and go into the retail business. Well he got that opportunity back in 1980 and bought Wade Motors out. When that happened, he decided, you know, I need a name. He didn’t want to use, his name, make it Galvin Ford. He wanted something different. So he sat down with mom one night and they came up with an idea. You know, he said, you know what, what would work in this area… a unique name? With our religious background and us going to church all the time in this community, what would fit the best? And they came up with the name of Miracle. They just felt like the Miracle name would not only be unique, but represent our family and also the community. So from there we decided on Miracle Ford and now we’ve been here close to 40 years. John Haggard: And that was 1980. Jim Galvin: 1980. John Haggard: Got It. You know, to a lot of people, Jim, a vehicle is really the second largest investment they’ll ever make besides a home mortgage. You hear a lot of dealers say, well, we’re different. Come see us, we’ll treat you right. A lot of people say that, well everybody says that. So what would you say really makes Miracle Ford different from the other Ford dealers out there? And really, why should somebody come to Miracle? Jim Galvin: Well John, I’m with you. Everybody seems to say the same old thing just to get people in the door. You know, our motto is very simple. We do the same thing all the time, day in, day out and that’s why we’ve been here for over 39 years. Our customers, our community believe in our processes. That’s why we’re here. That’s why we’re growing. That’s why we’ve established a foundation in Gallatin for this amount of years. You know, all we do John, is simply we give the customer a fair deal. Yes, we want to make a profit like any other business, but we want to do it the right way. We want to make sure when we get a profit, that they can come back in three or four years and they won’t be upside down. We believe that just making a good profit with a good living will make us successful, with our processes in order. That’s what we did. The other thing that really excites me the most is our employees have been here a long time. We don’t have a lot of high turnover and I attribute that to family values. They believe in our process. They believe in a family business and it seems to work. I’d go back to my father. You know, without his reputation in this town, we would not be here talking right now. I think reputation, and the sincerity of what we do makes us unique with Miracle Ford. John Haggard: You know, you hear that word. You used it a little bit earlier, “upside down” and you said, you know, of course every business has got to make a profit, a reasonable profit to exist. And you said, well, I don’t want people to come back in say three years when it’s time to trade or they want to trade and be upside down. For folks that might not understand that term, what does that mean? Jim Galvin: What it means is that you’ll make a profit, a huge profit in the front end and just absolutely just try to make as much as you can, which I do not believe in that. Then when it’s time to come in, they find out that their vehicle is not worth what it should be. You know, because you put so much investment from the very beginning. And to me that just kills the customer because you know what? They trust us three years ago, when they bought the vehicle. Now when they come back and they can’t get out of the vehicle, what does that say? It says that maybe we didn’t do a good job from day one. So we like to just make an honest profit. That way when they do come in and we look at their trade, we can get them out of their trade into a new vehicle or a good pre-owned and they won’t be that far out of whack and it’s worked for all these years. John Haggard: All right, we’re talking to Jim Galvin, the general manager of Miracle Ford in Gallatin. Is there any one thing I didn’t ask you, Jim? You know, something that you want people to know about Miracle Ford? Jim Galvin: Well if you could think of one word that describes us, I’m going to say it’s stability, John, and stability goes a long ways. It’s just doing things the right way. Cause we’ve been here close to 40 years. You just don’t see dealerships, in this time, that will last 40 years. Cause you’ve got all these corporate buyers and want to come in and buying all these mom and pops stores right now. But you know what? We’re here and we’re still family owned and that family owned goes a long ways, especially with our community and the surrounding areas of Nashville. John Haggard: Got It. Well thanks Jim. Join us again right here where we will have associates from Miracle Ford. Join us on the podcast throughout each month. Our goal is to show you the best ways to purchase, maintain and accessorize your new or preowned vehicle and how to sell it for the highest resale value possible, when you’re ready to. And don’t forget, we have also posted a transcript of each podcast so you can easily refer to it for information that you would like to have at your fingertips. I’m your host John Haggard and we’ll see you next time.

Our Town guest Jim Dinegar is President of the Greater Washington Board of Trade. By the end of their conversation, host Andy Ockershausen tells Jim “You are the image, Jim. You’re stuck with it!” Jim is humble in his response, saying that he does get to work for the Board of Trade, but “it is not him, and he’s not it.” Throughout the interview, time and again, Jim Dinegar demonstrates humility, a rarity in a man of his standing in a city like Washington DC. Accordingly to Andy, Jim's impact on the region’s business over the last 10 years as President of the Board of Trade is big. After listening in, you might agree that it’s due to Jim’s passion for the community in which he lives and works, and for the work he does representing the Board of Trade and its members within the Washington DC metro region. Although originally from Bayside, Queens, New York, Jim calls the Washington metro his home. His first impression of Washington DC as a visiting high school student was a lasting one. He came to see how government works, liked the fact that Our Town was singly focused around government at the time, and came back to attend Catholic University where he studied politics and history. Listen in to hear Jim list a few classmates that have gone on to become notable government officials. Before coming to the Board of Trade, Jim Dinegar worked with national associations and his business was national in scope, with lots of travel mostly around the country. When the call came from the Board of Trade for him to become President it was posited as an opportunity to “stay and live and work here to represent the place where you chose to live and work and raise your family, and for me that was catnip, that was too good to pass up.” Jim describes his position as President of the Board of Trade as a “facilitator that can help convene people, facilitate the discussion and help get things done.” That said, he is quick to tell us that the “Power of the Board of Trade is really in the membership. . .bank presidents, managing partners of law firms, the dedicated people out of public relations firms, advertising and marketing…” He also says with pride that the Board of Trade staff is incredibly dedicated and hard-working, and committed to good customer service and quality. Andy and Jim talk about the growth Washington DC metro has experienced. They agree…it’s going to get bigger and bigger but it will be connected with Baltimore and Richmond… into a megalopolis. They also discuss the visionaries who’ve made it, and are making it, what it is today - Milt Peterson, Ted Lerner, Bud Doggett, and Doug Jemal to name a few. When discussing the changes to Our Town over the last ten years, Jim tells Andy “When you look at this place, people choose to live here. I was asked about people who would leave here after the Inauguration, I don’t see that – It doesn’t happen any more. It’s not like Chicago should be expecting a big influx of people back… even the President and his wife are going to stay here.” “What I have seen over the years is that the smaller town feel of Washington, Rosslyn and Bethesda are becoming more of a big powerful region . . . we have a re-emerging.” Andy and Jim discuss transportation issues and what needs to be improved upon. They agree that “We are a world leader and world capital, but too often, we don’t play that way and we don’t think of ourselves that way, we can’t live with a Metro system that’s hobbling along- we have to have the best transportation. We need a quality transportation system to support the people who choose to live here. “ You will find their discussion on transportation enlightening to say the least. Think redefined traffic patterns, water taxi system, and reciprocal taxi policies. Jim and Andy also discuss what is working, and agree that the city government looks bright. They also mention the tremendous positive impact The Wharf will have on Our Town,

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jim Gay (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Intro to CoffeeScript) Discussion 01:26 - Topic: Pivoting Into New Development Areas 02:00 - Taking time off as a freelancer 02:39 - Business of Freelancing: Eric Davis & Brennan Dunn 03:52 - Podcast Answer Man: Cliff Ravenscraft 04:14 - Chuck's Intro to CoffeeScript Webinar 04:58 - Pivoting from one technology to another 05:12 - Jim's experience with ‘pivoting' 08:20 - Clojure 08:39 - Partial pivoting Learning new skills Trying new programming languages Satisfaction & what works best for you 12:08 - Eric's experience with ‘pivoting' 14:47 - Chuck's experience with ‘pivoting' 17:09 - Client requirements 18:43 - Transitioning to something you don't have expertise in Diving deeper Find a tool that is similar to what you're already doing 22:13 - Billing yourself as an expert 23:20 - Repercussions of pivoting into a new technology Shortages of work Jack of All Trades/Master of None Cutting edge technologies Making up time lost in old communities 26:19 - Personal reasons for pivoting Enjoyment factors Trying new technologies Growing as a developer Preventing burnout 30:05 - Pivoting into new technology versus learning new technology to broaden your horizons 32:31 - Other possible ‘gotcha's' of starting from scratch 34:37 - Was it lucrative to pivot out of areas? 39:09 - Adapting to a certain company's technologies 40:14 - What technologies are people getting into? JavaScript Mobile techonology .NET mruby Perl 6 49:05 - Closing out contracts with current clients before pivoting Picks Business of Freelancing (Eric) Automating with convention: Introducing sub (Eric) Adhearsion (Jim) Rebuilding Rails: Noal Gibbs (Jim) heckle (Jim) f.lux (Chuck) Transcript ERIC: I've seen a lot of problems with the Apple ear bud headphones because for me at least, it gets caught under my collar. And so, you can still pick up enough audio, but when you turn, it's like rubbing on your shirts. You know, like top and bottom. JIM: You're dressed when you do this? CHUCK: [laughs] ERIC: Yeah. I just have a shirt on. CHUCK: We know we've got Eric at least half covered folks. [Are you a busy Ruby developer who wants to take their freelance business to the next level? Interested in working smarter not harder? Then check out the upcoming book Next Level Freelancing: Developer Edition: Practical Steps to Work Less, Travel and Make More Money. It includes interviews and case studies with successful freelancers, who have made it by expanding their consultancy, develop passive income through informational products, build successful SaaS products and become rockstar consultants making a minimum of $200/hour. There are all kinds of practical steps on getting started and if you sign up now, you'll get 50% off when it's released. You can find it at nextlevelfreelancing.com] [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 32 of the Ruby Freelancers show. This week on our panel we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: We also have Jim Gay. JIM: Hello. CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week we're going to talk about “Pivoting into other Development Areas”. Before we get going though, I want to ask you guys; is there anything interesting going on in your businesses of lives lately? ERIC: I'm sick, that's interesting. JIM: That's not good. I have been renovating my house unexpectedly. And actually, I've been talking with a friend of mine, Sean Marcia and he's done freelancing and he's been employed. We have discussions on what's the benefit of being employed versus being a freelancer and I've taken…  you know, I plan to take a month off to finish writing my book,

Panel Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jim Gay (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Intro to CoffeeScript) Discussion 01:26 - Topic: Pivoting Into New Development Areas 02:00 - Taking time off as a freelancer 02:39 - Business of Freelancing: Eric Davis & Brennan Dunn 03:52 - Podcast Answer Man: Cliff Ravenscraft 04:14 - Chuck’s Intro to CoffeeScript Webinar 04:58 - Pivoting from one technology to another 05:12 - Jim’s experience with ‘pivoting’ 08:20 - Clojure 08:39 - Partial pivoting Learning new skills Trying new programming languages Satisfaction & what works best for you 12:08 - Eric’s experience with ‘pivoting’ 14:47 - Chuck’s experience with ‘pivoting’ 17:09 - Client requirements 18:43 - Transitioning to something you don’t have expertise in Diving deeper Find a tool that is similar to what you’re already doing 22:13 - Billing yourself as an expert 23:20 - Repercussions of pivoting into a new technology Shortages of work Jack of All Trades/Master of None Cutting edge technologies Making up time lost in old communities 26:19 - Personal reasons for pivoting Enjoyment factors Trying new technologies Growing as a developer Preventing burnout 30:05 - Pivoting into new technology versus learning new technology to broaden your horizons 32:31 - Other possible ‘gotcha’s’ of starting from scratch 34:37 - Was it lucrative to pivot out of areas? 39:09 - Adapting to a certain company’s technologies 40:14 - What technologies are people getting into? JavaScript Mobile techonology .NET mruby Perl 6 49:05 - Closing out contracts with current clients before pivoting Picks Business of Freelancing (Eric) Automating with convention: Introducing sub (Eric) Adhearsion (Jim) Rebuilding Rails: Noal Gibbs (Jim) heckle (Jim) f.lux (Chuck) Transcript ERIC: I’ve seen a lot of problems with the Apple ear bud headphones because for me at least, it gets caught under my collar. And so, you can still pick up enough audio, but when you turn, it’s like rubbing on your shirts. You know, like top and bottom. JIM: You’re dressed when you do this? CHUCK: [laughs] ERIC: Yeah. I just have a shirt on. CHUCK: We know we’ve got Eric at least half covered folks. [Are you a busy Ruby developer who wants to take their freelance business to the next level? Interested in working smarter not harder? Then check out the upcoming book Next Level Freelancing: Developer Edition: Practical Steps to Work Less, Travel and Make More Money. It includes interviews and case studies with successful freelancers, who have made it by expanding their consultancy, develop passive income through informational products, build successful SaaS products and become rockstar consultants making a minimum of $200/hour. There are all kinds of practical steps on getting started and if you sign up now, you’ll get 50% off when it’s released. You can find it at nextlevelfreelancing.com] [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 32 of the Ruby Freelancers show. This week on our panel we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: We also have Jim Gay. JIM: Hello. CHUCK: I’m Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week we’re going to talk about “Pivoting into other Development Areas”. Before we get going though, I want to ask you guys; is there anything interesting going on in your businesses of lives lately? ERIC: I’m sick, that’s interesting. JIM: That’s not good. I have been renovating my house unexpectedly. And actually, I’ve been talking with a friend of mine, Sean Marcia and he’s done freelancing and he’s been employed. We have discussions on what’s the benefit of being employed versus being a freelancer and I’ve taken…  you know, I plan to take a month off to finish writing my book,

In this episode of Bloody Angola Podcast, Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell the story of Robert Lee Willie who was executed at Bloody Angola in 1984 and his story was part of the inspiration for the movie "Dead Man Walking"Woody and Jim Cover the victims, the crimes and the eventual execution of willie via electric chair. #DeadManWalking #BloodyAngolaPodcast #truecrime #robertwillie #prison #convict #podcast #susansonrandon #seanpenn #hollywood #serialkillers #louisianaFull TranscriptTHE REAL DEAD MAN WALKINGJim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Y'all, we have got, Woody, I'd say one of the most highly requested stories we've had since we started.Woody: Right. I agree with you but when people request this, they are thinking about a movie. They don't know the real story.Jim: They don't. As someone who, in preparation of this episode, actually watched the movie again, I can say it's nothing like it.Woody: No doubt you did your research and the homework on it. Once again, you found out things that I didn't even know. But I knew the true story, and I knew when I saw the movie, it was two different things put together. But this is-- some of this, y'all, is going to be hard to hear, but we always told you it'd be different on Bloody Angola.Jim: That's right.Woody: So, we're going to get to talking today, and we're going to call the name this episode The Real Dead Man Walking. And y'all, we're talking about Robert Willie. Okay, so I'm going to start telling you about Faith Colleen Hathaway. Now, Faith was born in Orlando, y'all, in 1961, but she grew up in Mandeville, Louisiana. Mandeville is about an hour east drive of Baton Ridge and right across Lake Pontchartrain from New Orleans. Faith had been around, her family traveled a lot. Her family had left Louisiana for a few years and then the mid-1970s to travel, and they spent a lot of time in Ecuador and Haiti. I guess maybe they're doing mission work or something.Jim: Yeah, primarily mission work.Woody: Well, going to these different countries helped Faith develop a love for learning different languages and sparked her interest in joining the military. She knew that soldiers who were bilingual were desired and sought after by the US Army at the time. By her senior year of high school, she signed her commitment to join army, just like I did. So, immediately following graduation, she was going to get shipped out to basic training.Jim: That's it. On May 21st, 1980, she did just that, Woody Overton. She graduated from high school, and at 18 years old, she had her sights on reporting to active duty. That was like a week later, on May 28th of 1980, she was to report.Woody: She's rolling.Jim: She's rolling just a week after graduation, but sadly, she never made it. On May 27th, 1980, Faith awoke, she had breakfast at McDonald's in Mandeville, which is a smaller town back then. Now, it's-Woody: Yeah, it's pretty big.Jim: -pretty big. But back then, it was just a little Podunk town. And she did some shopping. She actually shopped for support bras because her recruiter mentioned she's going to probably need those for basic training and she was running out of time to have to report as basic training, as we told you, was the next day. She returned to the apartment complex her mom managed where her and a friend, they shared a separate unit from her mother and stepfather. She's 18, and it was the 70s all. It was different. Nowadays, you think about that and it's like, "What?"Woody: Right. "I'm not going to let my daughter do that." But totally different time, totally different world.Jim: Totally. She decided she wanted to go swimming in the pool. So, she did that. Then, she gets dressed and she had kind of her last day at work before joining basic training and she worked at a local restaurant.Woody: Yeah. The difference between her and I, when I went eight years later, I wasn't trying to work in the [crosstalk]Jim: [chuckles] I wouldn't either.Woody: That shows her commitment. I was getting drunk to shit for probably a week before.But she was go-getter.Jim: Worked all the way to her last day at work. After working her shift, she had some friends who contact her. Well, one friend in particular. She said, "Hey, let's go out for drinks after you get off work. It's your last night in town." And so, that's what they did. They go to a local bar and celebrate her leaving the next day for basic training.Woody: The next morning comes and that's May the 28th and Faith's mom went to Faith's room or her apartment, whatever you want to call it, to spend some time with her before her army recruiter showed up to pick her up and bring her to the military bus that would take her to basic training. When Faith's mom opened the bedroom door, she was surprised to see that Faith hadn't slept in her bed. She woke up Faith's roommate and asked her to say, "Hey, where's Faith at?" And her roommate said that she had gone to bed early the night before and hadn't seen Faith since she left for work the prior night. Faith's mom then calls-- now y'all, there was no cell phone, Faith's mom then calls the friend that Faith had drinks with the night before and she was hoping that Faith had stayed the night at her house, but she hadn't.So, naturally what do moms do? Because this wasn't like Faith. Her mom panicked. And she got in contact with Faith's biological father who lived in New Orleans. And Faith was really tight with him, and she told him, said, "Hey, I can't find Faith. And she never came home evidently." He jumps into action and went straight to the police and reported her missing, both to the Mandeville Police Department and the St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's Office.Jim: Yeah, this guy just kind of got into action. Went dad mode, and mom was in a panic, understandably. Thank God, one of them could keep a level head long enough to think about what to do. On the following day, which was Thursday, May 29th, 1980, a multi-state alert was basically put out on her disappearance. By Sunday, personal articles of clothing werediscovered in a remote 47-acre tract of land in Franklinton, Louisiana, which is about an hour's drive north, y'all, of Mandeville, where she was last seen.Woody: In Washington Parish. Really, really rural. Jim: Yeah. Very rural.Woody: [crosstalk] -over there is papermill.Jim: That's it. And you can smell it when you're passing through. The belongings were discovered really by mere chance. There was a family. They were picnicking in the area, and their seven-year-old daughter walked up to them, and the daughter had a tube of lipstick. The mother asked her, she said, "Where did you get that?" And the child said behind a tree. There's a lot of stuff back there. So, the family kind of goes back there and looks, and they discover a full case of makeup, a bunch of clothing that turned out to be Faith's. How they kind of knew it was her was they found a billfold with her driver's license in it, and it had some other belongings. They go straight to Covington, Louisiana, and return those to the sheriff's office, not realizing at the time that this person was missing. They were just being good citizens.Woody: They know Faith's missing, and now they know basically you don't get a female doesn't go anywhere without her purse or makeup and ID and all that, but her clothes were there. So, they jump into action, and a search party was formed. On Wednesday, June of 4th, 1980, Faith's body was found in some thick underbrush just 200 yards from where her belongings were found five days earlier. Faith had been brutally raped, and her throat had been slashed. Her body was locked up in rigor mortis in a spread-eagle position, legs forced open, arms above her head, several severed fingers. This is a sign, y'all, naturally. The severed fingers is a sign that Faith tried to defend herself, but ultimately it was futile. She had been stabbed repeatedly in the neck with a large knife and had a total of 17 stab wounds [unintelligible [00:10:40]. The cut across her throat was so deep that her necklace was embedded into her flesh. The pathologist who performed the autopsy said that her death was not immediate and had to be excruciating. Basically, it took long enough for her to bleed to death. It's a horrible, horrible death.Jim: Yeah.Woody: This isn't like in the woods, y'all. You can imagine being out there fighting for your life, and somebody just slicing you. 17 stab wounds is a lot. But then, you slice the neck so hard that you embed the necklace deep into your neck. It's crazy.Jim: It really is. Woody: 18 years old.Jim: 18 years old, and just about to leave for basic training the morning all this went down really.Woody: Whole life ahead of you.Jim: Whole life ahead of you. Now what no one suspected at the time outside of the police was, well, when Faith's body was found was that a connection was being made. On May 31st, 1980, just three days before the disappearance of Faith Hathaway, another abduction had taken place in the same area. Mark Brewster, who was 20, parked his car near the Tchefuncte River, and that was a lover's lane, and he had a 16-year-old girlfriend. Different time, y'all. I'm not saying I agree with that but it's a different time. It was more common thenthan now. Two men approached the vehicle. They were armed with guns, and they forced Mark into the trunk of the vehicle while driving to Alabama and repeatedly raping his young girlfriend.Now near Wilcox, Alabama, the two men stopped the vehicle in a wooded area. They pull Brewster out of the trunk. They tie him to a tree and they shoot him twice in the head with a .22 revolver before slashing his throat and leaving him for dead.Woody: That's crazy.Jim: Wilcox, Alabama is not a stone's throw from here. Woody: That's away.Jim: It's away. The two men then drive back to Louisiana, repeatedly raping the young girl again the entire way back. Originally, these two assholes brought the girl back to a third man's trailer in Folsom, which is basically halfway between Franklinton and Mandeville in Louisiana. They were using this trailer as a hideout. The man, the third guy, starts making kind of sexual advances towards her. Obviously, these are some real winners, right?Woody: Yeah, right.Jim: However, the girl mentioned at some point that she was raped by the other two guys. And the man starts to panic. So, he goes to the two guys that have really kicked off this whole thing and he says, "Look, you got to let this girl go. We're going to be in a shit pile of trouble." So, that's what they do. They kind of drove her out to the middle of nowhere and dropped her off. She walks to a nearby home and knocks on the door, beats on the door. The occupants, thank God, grab her and bring her to the police station.Woody: Right. On Monday, June the 2nd, miraculously, she was able to lead the cops back to the location of Brewster despite having been locked in the trunk when Brewster was tied to a tree, shot twice, and had his throat slash. When police and the girlfriend arrived on the scene on Tuesday, June the 3rd, Brewster was still alive.Jim: Can you believe that?Woody: The other thing about that I want to say real quick, not only those injuries that hehad, but you're out there in Alabama and- Jim: Tied to a tree.Woody: -in the middle of the summer, can you imagine mosquito bites? I had a case like this. A husband and wife went into the woods around the same time of year when it was hot like that, and they even brought the cat. He shot the cat, he shot her, and shot himself, and she lived. But when I found her, she didn't look like a human being because she had millions of mosquito bites on her. Because her heart was still pumping, the mosquitoes were on it. So, this guy on top of being shot, everything else had to be just absolutely, almost unrecognizable as a human being. Brewster was immediately brought to the South Alabama University Hospital. About the time he underwent surgery, three suspects were arrested in Texarkana after they were recognized by the composite drawings from descriptions made by Brewster's girlfriend. The suspects were Robert Willie, 21, of Covington, Louisiana, Joseph Vaccaro, 28, of Pearl River, Louisiana, and Thomas Holden, 26, of Folsom, Louisiana, y'all. Now, upon suspecting that the crimes were related and one of the crimes taking place across Louisiana state lines, the FBI was brought in to lead the interrogation.The FBI wasn't having any luck at interrogating Willie, and he was saying nothing, but St. Tammany Parish sheriff's deputy named Donald Duck Sharp had known Willie since childhood and was flown up to Texarkana to assist in an interrogation. Within 30 minutes of starting to talk to him, y'all, Lieutenant Sharp produced a picture of Faith Hathaway, to which Robert Willie responded, "I killed her." When pressed further, Willie said that he didn't actually kill her, that Vaccaro slashed her throat. Lieutenant Sharp then went into the interrogation room with Vaccaro and played the tape of Willie stating that Vaccaro slashed Hathaway's throat, to which Vaccaro denied and said that Willie was lying and that he is the one who killed Hathaway. And that's typical interrogation techniques, y'all.Jim: Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. As an interrogator, is it critical to play one against the other--? [crosstalk]Woody: Absolutely. Look, you think your homie is you ride or die until, "I killed her, but no, actually, I didn't kill her. He killed her." You go play it for him and then it's "he said, he said" and you're both getting hooked.Jim: Yeah. I found it interesting that the FBI had the wherewithal to actually admit, "We're not going to get anything out of this guy." That's got to be hard. I mean, as an interrogator, you think you can get everybody to talk.Woody: The thing about the FBI, and I'm not throwing shade on them, and I've worked with them on task force and everything else, they're experts at federal crimes. Okay, they're not expert interrogators, but they were smart enough to know that they needed to bring somebody in to make that personal connection and to give them a start to at least to try to roll. Now, look, I've done it. I've brought in everybody from wives to preachers to high school teachers, whatever the fuck you got to do to get the juice.Jim: Absolutely. This guy having a long history with Willie being that they had known each other since childhood, he was, I guess, someone that Willie would have trusted, and they felt like he would open up to a little more. And how about the name Donald Duck Sharp. Love it. I wonder if he's still around St. Tammany. If you are, we'd love to have you on Bloody Angola.Woody: Let's see, in the 80s, that's what, another 40 something? Yeah, we'd love to have you.Jim: Absolutely. If any of you are listening to this and actually know him or you're listening on Facebook and you can find him, shoot him a message to him, we want him on Bloody Angola. We love to talk to him about his experience with all this.Woody: Props up to him for what he does in this case.Jim: 100%. Now, Lieutenant Sharp goes back in the room with Willie after he talked to Vaccaro and played the tape for him. He says, "Man, y'all are having conflicting stories here." He starts pulling out photos, just tons of photos of the murder scene.Woody: Another absolutely classic interrogation technique. Jim: Really?Woody: Oh, yeah, absolutely.Jim: So, what is he aiming for?Woody: He's aiming for shock value. If you were truly wrong-- somebody's a vicious fucking killer, but someone's a leader, someone's a follower. If you reach a certain point, you got both of them saying this and saying that, you throw it down in front of them and you try to strike a human emotion, being like, "Oh, shit." Because a lot of times in our brain, they may have been drunk or whatever, but they don't remember the real damage. And you see it there-- I would assume, being in color photographs by this time, you see that-- And I've used this in so many cases, you see that, then that'll break most people down.Jim: And you're watching for body language, and how they react, all of those sorts of things. Interesting. He does, he pulls out tons of photos of the murder scene, the body of Faith Hathaway. He kind of goes through them with Willie. Willie is looking at these pictures, and he sees the one with the severed fingers of Hathaway, and he says, "You see her fingers? She tried to grab the knife when Joe was trying to cut her. I reached up and grabbed her hands and I told her to behave."Woody: Oh, my God.Jim: That's horrible. Lieutenant Sharp pressed Willie even harder because now he's starting to kind of talk a little bit more, and he takes that advantage and he says, "You mean you told her to behave while you were cutting her?" And Willie responds, "Yeah." Willie and Vaccaro both told Lieutenant Sharp that Faith told them to let her die in peace, with Willie stating he did not rape Faith, that she wanted to have sex with him.Woody: Oh, yeah, that's why they had to cut her fingers off.Jim: Yeah, and Vaccaro raped her after. However, when Lieutenant Sharp goes to Vaccaro and questions him, he states he couldn't get hard, and although he tried to rape her, he could not get an erection, and that Willie did the raping. Before we go any further on, that just this quick thought. That's okay with them. "I tried to rape her, but I couldn't get hard, so I'm not guilty." You got the other one saying, "Oh, she wanted me to screw her." Freaking crazy. And they think they're going to get out of this? During Lieutenant Sharp's questioning of Willie, Willie told about a third victim that police were unaware of in the same short period as the other two crimes, where Willie and Vaccaro on the same night as the Brewster abduction, attempted to abduct another woman. She screamed, she hollered, she went nuts, and they kind of drove away. That's probably what you should do. If somebody's trying to abduct you, no matter how old you are, flip out.Woody: Fight all you can. It shows their progression that they were progressing in the nature of the crimes, and as seen in this case, they grew to the point where they completed it. But y'all, Willie wasn't any stranger to the cops, and he had a long and distinguished arrest record, including auto theft, trespassing, disturbing the peace, criminal damage property, ag assault, several counts of burglary, all before he was even an adult, before he even turned 18.Jim: And that's a big deal. This guy, before he turned 18, he had a rap sheet.Woody: That's the ones he got arrested for. I tell you that for everyone he got arrested for, there's probably 20 that he was never tied to. Hey, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. John Willie, who's Willie's dad, was serving 27 years in Angola for a bunch of crimes. And in 1954, he went back to Angola for theft of cattle. He was released--Jim: In Angola. [chuckles]Woody: Right. I'll tell you what, there's still a lot in the books in East Louisiana Parish, if you steal cattle, you can be hung. It's not enforceable but--Jim: Look, I'm watching 1923, that's a big deal back then too.Woody: You're taking everything from them. John Willie was released, and guess what? 1964, he was sent back to Angola again, this time for second-degree murder and received a life sentence. But that sentence got commuted to 10 years, and he was released in 1972. But he then went back to Angola for aggravated battery and was released for the last time in 1983. But not all of Willie's bloodline contained convicts. His great grandfather, John Avery Willie, was a deputy for 35 years for the St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's Office and his grandfather for two decades.Jim: Yeah. That's crazy.Woody: That's probably how he knew Donald Duck.Jim: Somewhere along that line, that bloodline changed from heroes to convicts.Woody: I think actually think there's a very fine line. I think the best cops were probably OG convicts-- [crosstalk]Jim: [laughs] They were walking that line.Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: [laughs] I hear you. Just a little history on that, people, a lot of times want to know what the family history was like. Now, the trial for the rape and murder of Faith Hathaway starts. In court, Willie made easy work on the jurors who were looking to send it to him to death. He was a total asshole. He even stated at one point that Cuevas enjoyed being raped. Cuevas was the young lady who was now identified as she was an adult, that was the one who was raped-Woody: [crosstalk] -all the way to Alabama.Jim: -all the way to Alabama and all the way back. He actually had the balls to say she enjoyed that. Vaccaro was found guilty. Although the death penalty for Vaccaro was assault, the jury was not unanimous in the death penalty and Vaccaro receives a life sentence.Woody: Back then, you only had to have 10 out of 12 to get a guilty verdict. On a death penalty case, if you're going-- there's two separate phases. You have the trial phase and if he was found guilty, would have been first-degree murder. Then, you go into the penalty phase. For the penalty phase, if you get the death, it's got to be 12 out of 12. So, somebody felt guilty and didn't want him sentenced to die.Jim: No doubt about it. Now, Willie's mother, Elizabeth Oalman, who would help her son evade police, pled guilty to accessory after the fact and she served one year of a five-year sentence. That was the one thing in the actual movie, Dead Man Walking, they did talk about her prison sentence for helping him kind of evade police after the fact. So, Robert Lee Willie was found guilty of the murder of Faith, and he was sentenced to death. However, there was a technicality, happens a lot in cases. It could have been he wasn't read his rights at some point.Woody: The deal is a death penalty case is scrutinized much harder. I mean, had it been a regular burger case or whatever, probably they wouldn't have been looked at so hard that they could actually find technicality.Jim: Right. No worries because the evidence was stacked against him, he appealed. It had to be retried and he was again found guilty and sentenced to death. Now, next up was a trial for Brewster and the 16-year-old Debbie Cuevas, who I just told you about. You see, in the trial for Faith Hathaway, Debbie Cuevas actually testified. Obviously, she wasn't involved in that court case from a victim standpoint, but she testified maybe to the state of mind of these individuals.Woody: It shows that they're beasts.Jim: Yes.Woody: And that Hathaway wasn't the only one.Jim: 100%. Now, because Brewster and Cuevas were taken across state lines, this became a federal case under the Federal Kidnapping Act, which was brand new back then in 1980, and basically gave federal courts jurisdiction over any kidnapping that goes over state lines. They just have more resources than your state government.Woody: They can coordinate. Smart criminals go across state lines because even now with the FBI and this act, but back then, especially because law enforcement agencies didn't have the communication resources they do now. If you go across state line, it makes it harder to get help in another jurisdiction.Jim: 100%. Now, during the trial, Willie was up to his old tricks with Cuevas. In the trial where she was going to get justice, he's blowing kisses to her. He actually would draw his finger across his throat while she would look at him. That's how much of a piece of shit this guy was. In the middle of the trial, and this is where it gets very disgusting, now, Willie and Vaccaro were both tried at the same time. All of a sudden, middle of the trial, they both stand up and they say, "We want to go ahead and take a plea." They stand up in court, they take the plea, and the judge says, "What do you plead?" And they say, "Yeah, we're guilty. We just wanted to put y'all through this," looking right at Cuevas, who had to testify in detail about the many rapes she endured at their hands. That's insane.Willie and Vaccaro plead guilty to two counts of kidnapping, one count of conspiracy to kidnapping, and they both received life sentences. Now, although Brewster did live, he was partially paralyzed after the incident.Woody: Horrible.Jim: Holden, you may wonder about Holden. "Well, what about the guy in the trailer, the third guy?" Well, he actually was charged with accessory to federal kidnapping, and he took the coward's way out. He committed suicide in his cell by hanging himself shortly after the trial.Woody: Crazy.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Just death everywhere. Hell of jail for him. Jim: Hell is probably where he's at.Woody: It's just crazy. While on death row in Bloody Angola, Robert Willie pled guilty to yet another murder because he had killed Dennis Hemby. In 1978, Willie and his cousin, Perry Taylor, beat and drowned Dennis Hemby, who was 19 years old, to steal weed Hemby had in his possession. Just winners, right?Jim: Weed.Woody: Yeah, probably a bag of weed. Not like pounds or something. But Dennis Taylor pled guilty to manslaughter in the case and received a 21-year sentence. Willie pled guilty to second-degree murder and received another life sentence. What else? How many life sentences can you do? Willie also confessed to the 1978 murder of Louis Wagner, who was a St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's deputy, and he implicated three other men. Wagner was killed in retaliation for repeatedly arresting one of the four men. Charges were brought against all four but were dropped against all, but Robert Willie after Willie recanted his statement and said the men had nothing to do with the deputy's murder. He pled guilty to second-degree murder in that case and received another life sentence. It is alleged that Willie recanted his story after his father told him he had violated the honor code of convicts regarding being a snitch. Father of the year.Jim: Father of the year. Snitches get stitches.Woody: If all that's not crazy enough, serial killers, Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole confessed to killing Wagner. When they confess, Willie completely recanted his story again saying the only reason he confessed the murder is he assumed he would stay in the St. Tammany Parish jail for a trial which he knew would be easier to escape from than Angola. It's crazy. Willie also claimed to kill two other men, one being a hitchhiker and the other being a brick truck driver. He gave no details on the hitchhiker but said he killed the brick truck driver after robbing him and then disposed of his body in a pond along the interstate in St. Tammany Parish.Jim: Absolutely crazy.Woody: Yeah. Fuck, I lost how many murders--[crosstalk] Jim: Total serial killer.Woody: Yeah, absolutely a serial killer.Jim: Just to back up for a second on something you just mentioned, Woody, and that was the name, Ottis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas. We're not going to go into-- that's a whole another episode. We'll tell y'all about those jokers. But I will tell you they were sexual partners, openly gay serial killers that had confessed to over 250 killings throughout their, I guess, serial killer reign. Just a whole other story with those guys. As a matter of fact, Ottis Toole is if you remember the Adam Walsh case back, I was a young buck back then and that scared me to go play around in a mall because he got beheaded after being kidnapped from, I believe, it was a Sears department store. Of course, his father, John Walsh, became a huge advocate for the milk carton stuff where you see the kids on milk cartons. That was John Walsh that spearheaded a lot of that. Whole another story. I'm getting chills thinking about it because that's important to tell.Woody: Also, America's Most Wanted.Jim: America's Most Wanted. Ottis Toole, to sum that up, is who confessed to that murder, and as a matter of fact, his lover actually confirmed that. There'll be more on that in another episode.If you've seen the movie, Dead Man Walking, like I just talked about, it's based off of a book and that book was written by Sister Helen Prejean. Now, Sister Helen Prejean's book is centered around the facts of her experience as a spiritual advisor for the Angola condemned. It really is an amazing account, y'all. Believe it or not, she's still alive and a really amazing lady. I think anyone that commits to religion as she has, in her mind, everything she's doing is for good. Who am I to argue with that? That being said, the movie is very-- and I mean very loosely based on the reality of Robert Willie. It's Hollywood, y'all. They didn't want to show accurate accounts of Willie's murders because, let's face it, if you had known what I just told you about this guy, you're not going to feel sorry for him. You're not. At the end of the movie, if you didn't know any better, I almost felt sorry for him.Woody: Yeah, that's crazy.Jim: It really is. Now, her work as an advocate against the death penalty, it's known worldwide, and she's 83 years young as of today and resides in the Slidell area, I believe, just an hour from where we're currently recording this episode. So, hey.Woody: Still St. Tammany Parish.Jim: Sister Prejean, if you're listening, Woody and I would love to have you on the show.Woody: We would love to have you on, sister. I respect what she does.Jim: 100%.Woody: Can you imagine-- Actually, if I'm not mistaken, Willie's case was the first one that she actually took on.Jim: Yeah. She was young. Woody: Right. Yeah, it was the first.Jim: You remember exactly right. As a matter of fact, they were pen pals. She was writing to inmates and had never even met a death row inmate before.Woody: And then went over there and called a lot of flak for it. Just think about this gap, Willie. You know the one thing I think they probably got true in the movie is when he tried to make sexual advances at her. He's a fucking animal. Let's go to Robert Willie's execution. Right before Robert Willie's execution, John Willie, who's the dad, said his son deserved to die and that Vaccaro should be executed along with him.Jim: Father of the year.Woody: He said, "If a man did me wrong, I'd have no problem with killing him like I'd kill that chicken out there," he said. "But I could never do anything to hurt a woman, a child or a young person," because you got to have some morals, huh?Jim: [chuckles]Woody: When Faith's parents, Vernon and Elizabeth Harvey, went to John's home and asked him if he believed in capital punishment, he said he was willing to pull the switchhimself. Well, you know what? If he'd been a better daddy, they would have never had to ask that question. Robert Willie's grandfather, a former sheriff, also said his grandson most likely deserved to die. He said, "Her life was precious to her and he took it, and they ought to take his life," Keaton Willie said. Vernon Harvey admitted that he had twice considered killing Willie during the trial.Jim: Good for you, Vernon.Woody: I think everybody that has to sit through their kid's murder trial thinks that too. He said in the courtroom during his second sentencing trial, "The deputy sheriff was standing less than 2ft in front of me with his unstrapped holstered .357 magnum pistol." He said, "I thought about stepping up and grabbing it, but there were other people too close to Willie," said Harvey. On the other occasion, Vernon saw that Willie had federal marshals driving him and he considered ramming the car. He said, "I contemplated ramming the car and trying to push it into lake. But then I figured the federal marshals hadn't done me any wrong." Willie was executed on December 28th, 1984. And I tell y'all the fires in hell burned a little bit brighter that day. He was a sixth man to be executed at Bloody Angola in a 13-month period. He rode the lightning Gruesome Gertie style. He was 26 years old.Jim: Amen. I'll tell you, before you go any further, in the movie, it's lethal injection he gets. Here, he didn't get lethal injection. He rode the light sponge.Woody: [crosstalk] sponge on that shaved head and-- Jim: Put that sponge on there.Woody: [crosstalk] -would say, killed him good. All right. Y'all, Willie asked Sister Helen Prejean to be with him on the day of his execution. He was also visited by his mom and his brothers. Sister Prejean attended the execution at his request, and he winked at her right before they threw the switch. Willie's last meal consisted of fried fish, oysters, shrimp, French fries, and a salad. Prior to his execution, he said to Hathaway's mother and stepfather, Elizabeth and Vernon Harvey, who were there as witnesses y'all for the prosecution, he said, "I hope you get some relief from my death. Killing people is wrong. That's why you put me to death. It makes no difference whether it's citizens, countries, or governments. Killing is wrong."Jim: Coming from someone who would know.Woody: Yeah [crosstalk] killed more people than we even talked about today. But Debbie Cuevas, the teen who endured all those horrible rapes from both Willie and Vaccaro, wrote a book on her experience and stated in the book that Willie never felt remorse. Asking Sister Prejean, did he show any real remorse before he died? To which Sister Prejean responded, "No. And you know, Debbie, I'm not sure he was capable of that."Jim: Good call, Sister Prejean. You're probably right.Woody: That's psychopathic [crosstalk] she was honest. Psychopath to the end.Jim: Yeah, really. Just so many lives affected from this guy. It just sickens me. Debbie Cuevas later married and had a son and daughter. And then, as Debbie Morris, she still struggled to come to terms with her experience. She eventually forgave both Willie and Vaccaro for their crimes against her. And she even wrote a book, y'all. In her book titled Forgiving the Dead Man Walking: Only One Woman Can Tell the Entire Story, she tells of her spiritual journey. She writes that she had decided to forgive Willie for the crimes hecommitted. Now, after her book was published, she began writing to Vaccaro in prison. Through this period, Morris also established a friendship with Sister Prejean.She's a lot more forgiving person than me, I can tell you. Morris opposes capital punishment. She has said in her book that she believed her testimony contributed to Willie being sentenced to death and executed. Now, Michael L. Varnado, the detective in the case of Faith Hathaway, also wrote a book, and it's called Victims of the Dead Man Walking, and it recounts his views of the case.Woody: It's crazy. Back then, or even when the movie came out, books were more widely read than they are now. But these would have come out using the name of the movie, Dead Man Walking, so they could tell their side of the story.Jim: Absolutely. Look, when this movie came out, and I think everybody in that movie won some sort of award, it was up for an Academy Award for best movie at that time. Good for these victims to take advantage of that to maybe help their income out and help get their story out. I'm sure some of them, it was about getting the story out, not even [crosstalk] the income.Woody: For me, it'd be like, you Hollywooded it up, let's tell the real story.Jim: Yeah. That's what I love about doing Bloody Angola, is that's what we just gave you. We gave you the real story of who this guy is. I'm sure a lot of you have seen that movie. If you're a true crime fan, I'm sure you watched it. I can tell you, you're probably like me after I finished this research and that was, "Holy crap, this is nothing like I thought. I thought this guy may have made one mistake in his entire--" oh, no, this guy was a full-blown piece of fucked.Woody: Serial killer, man. He just killed so many people, destroyed so many lives. That's the ones that we know about. Anyway, we want to thank y'all for listening to this episode. Our Patreon members, you're getting more episodes than probably any other podcast in the history of the world gives. We hope you're enjoying them. Y'all, if you want to be a Patreon member, you can go to--Jim: You can go to Patreon. Just type in "Bloody Angola Podcast," it'll pull up. Or you can go to the Facebook page, we've got our little link tree there. You click on that and that's got our links, not only to our Patreon, but all of our--Woody: Everything.Jim: Everything we pretty much have now. We have different levels on Patreon. It'severything from our Chase Team, to our CERT Team, to our Tie Down Team.Woody: To the Warden.Jim: To the Warden Team. As it goes up, you get more and more perks. Please go to the Chase Team-- or the Patreon team site and you can see what those different membership levels will get you. But it's really the only way we can continue to do the show, is through our Patreon team.Woody: We even have the option and you get the discount, if you sign up for a year at a time. We want to thank everybody that's done that. That's growing, because it's growing and we're getting more Patreon members, we're able to lock up more of these bonus episodes. This one not being one of them, obviously, but you're getting way more than I ever heard of in podcasting. So, go check it out. Hey, you can't be a Patreon member, we get it. We loveyou anyway. Please, if you feel so inclined, go leave us a review, like us, remember, wherever you listen to the podcast, hit subscribe. That way, anytime we drop an episode, you'll get the notification and it'll be there waiting so you never miss another episode of Bloody-Jim: -Angola. We want to shout out real quick. Each episode we're going to take a different team and we're going to kind of shout out those members. Today, we want to shout out our CERT Team members.Woody: Right, straight up. Y'all, CERT Team is our affectionate name for-- we're trying to keep it all in the prison names. CERT Team is basically the SWAT team. They're the ones who train to respond for everything from cell extractions to hostage situations to whatever, special kind of security.Jim: We do want to mention, the CERT perks include ad-free episodes. You get early access to those episodes, obviously, and you also get access to our companion episodes. This would be considered a regular episode of Bloody Angola.Woody: Commercial free.Jim: You get commercial free and all that as a CERT Team member. But you also get those companion episodes that are in our sally port that we do all kinds of stuff with. We've got about 20 different companions that we put out. $15 a month, y'all. You get all those perks with the CERT Team.Woody: And it's love-- Like Jim said, you can check out all the different perks you get, but for $15 a month, if you like Bloody Angola, you're going to love being a CERT Team member. The first one, I want to thank is Ms. Tisha Dubrock. Tisha, we really appreciate you being a CERT Team member. Thank you.Jim: And we also want to thank Ms. Tasha Brown. Thank you so much for joining the CERT Team and supporting us.Woody: And Tabitha Amall, that's a good, strong Cajun name. Thank you, Tabitha. We really do appreciate you.Jim: The next one I want to thank, and I'm going to pronounce it both ways, it's either Renee or Rena. Make a comment or something below this and correct me. I'm not even going to go-- it's one of those two. Last name, Walton.Woody: I'm going to go with Renee.Jim: There you go. Woody is going with Renee. Ms. Walton, we appreciate you so much forsupporting us.Woody: Thank you. And Payton Myers. Payton, thank you. We appreciate you. Couldn't do without you. Thank you.Jim: All right. Mamu Wama.Woody: I'm going to say Mimu.Jim: All right. So, you comment too below that, you can tell us which one is right. Woody: You let us know who is right.Jim: But thank you.Woody: Thank you so much. And Michelle Carter. Thank you, sweetie. We really appreciateyou backing us and supporting us.Jim: Woody gets all the easy names. [chuckles] All right. I'm going to go with Leah? Woody: I'm going with Leah too.Jim: Fuselait.Woody: Fuselait. I'm going with that too.Jim: Thank you so much. Let us know if we got it right.Woody: Let us know if we got it right, Leah, but thank you for your support. He's right because I got another easy one. Catherine Ford. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We really do appreciate your support.Jim: This next one, we know. She's an OG from way back on everything we do. And that's Ms. Jennifer Lamley.Woody: Jennifer Jerram Lamley. Sweetie, you know we love you and thank you for always supporting us. We really do appreciate it. Shoutout to CERT Team members. We appreciate, y'all. Thank you.Jim: Thank you so much. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years into making.Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.Jim: Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production, in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe DeRouen in Studio 433, with vocals by Thomas Cain. Created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Wood Overton.[Bloody Angola theme]Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Woody Overton and Jim Chapman open up season 3 of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman give you a ton of insight into Louisiana State penitentiary at Angola by reading you the actual diary of the founder of the "Angolite" magazine and editor Old Wooden Ears" from the 1930's!#Louisianastatepenitentiary #AngolaPrison #Podcast #Applepodcast #spotifyTranscript of episode2023 Jim: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: First of all, Woody Overton, it's Season 3.Woody: Yes, love, right? [chuckles]Woody: I can't believe that. Thank you everyone for liking us and sharing us and helping us grow. It's been amazing. Chase Team members and now all our higher levels of Patreon.Jim: Warden.Woody: Warden and C.E.R.T. Team. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. But yeah, Season 3, it's amazing. We've sold out two live shows now. Y'all's Response has been phenomenal. We appreciate you. You're about to start getting Bloody Angola three days a week.Jim: And as is our tradition, Woody Overton, we always start with a classic story from Angola.Woody: This is a classic story. Not only about the person it's about, but we are going to bring it to you from what should be a story in its own.Jim: Yes.Woody: The Angolite.Jim: The start of the Angolite, which for those of you that are not familiar, that's a magazine that is released by the prison for inmates to read.Woody: Not only inmates. I had a subscription to it back in 1992 or 1993 and they used to mail it to my house.Jim: All we're doing is telling people how old we are. Woody: [chuckles] Okay, sure. Yeah.Jim: [crosstalk] -Pony Express back then. [laughs]Woody: Yeah, right. That was definitely snail mail. It always fascinates the shit out of me what the criminal mind does. This is after I worked in the prison system too. But it's a phenomenal award-winning magazine.Jim: It really is. The guy who started that magazine is who we're going to really be talking about today. The interesting deal with this gentleman is that he was the original editor and the guy who started the Angolite. But not only did he do that, he also, in addition, kept probably one of the best diaries of Angola. As a matter of fact, I'm going to go ahead and say the best diary of Angola you would ever come across. And he had a nickname. I'm going to tell you about that nickname first. They called him Old Wooden Ears.Woody: Wooden Ears.Jim: The reason they called this gentleman that is he was beat by a correctional officer at some point during his early years in Angola and actually went deaf in one ear. So, he was known by the prisoners as Old Wooden Ears. We're going to tell you about the diaries of William Sadler, and we're going to name this episode Old Wooden Ears.Woody: Wooden Ears.Jim: The interesting thing with this episode is that we're going to actually read you the diary because we can't do this justice without actually reading you the entry. We're just going to take these back and forth. Trust me, this is interesting, y'all. This is the real diary.Woody: Think about it. You don't have a whole lot to do in prison. At least this guy was keeping himself busy by keeping a diary.Jim: And didn't hold back.Woody: Right. He told the truth according to him.Jim: Mm-hmm. That's right. We're going to start with January 1st, 1936. This was New Year's Day on Angola, and it was celebrated by all hands out in the field with the exception of Camp E, most of whom are assigned to the refinery. Sugarcane cutting going on full blast with no Sundays or holidays off until grinding ends, which will be about the middle of the month. Red Hats out in the cane shed.Woody: Red Hats.Jim: If you listen to our Red Hats episode, you'll find out a little bit more about them. But he'salready mentioning the Red Hat.Woody: Yeah. On January 3rd, 1936, he writes, "There was hail on the Gola this day. The refinery has been making 100% white sugar and shipping it to the brokers in Chicago under the Pelican Refinery, Baton Rouge label, so consumers wouldn't get onto the fact that it was made by convict labor. The last month, some of those dudes loading freight cars at Camp B siphoned off sugar out of several sacks and filled holes with striped convict clothes. When the sacks hit Chicago in the retail market and a howl went up, this was heard way down here. The result? About 16 men caught the bat, anywhere from 30 to 45 lashes each. But those who were beaten weren't the guilty ones, strange to say. It seems their clothing had been stolen and shoved into the sacks. And since the dudes bore their laundry numbers, it made them automatically guilty. The actual perpetrators of the switch got off scot-free, which is often the case on this Angola."Jim: How about that?Woody: Right. Y'all, go back and listen to some of our other episodes. The bat was basically a big leather strap. That's what they're referring to. Now, that's pretty smart. Let me tell youthis real quick. When I was in basic training in the army, they had a guy on a cot across from me that snored every night, and I wouldn't get any sleep anyway, I've been on a light sleeper. So, before the lights went out, you had to line your shoes underneath the bunk, I stole one of his boots. When the lights went out, he started snoring, I reared back and I threw that boot, I hit him in his head as hard as I could. He jumped up and he was like, "You motherfuckers. I'm going to get you. I got your boot. When I turn on the lights in the morning, I'm going to find out who it is." But guess what? It was his. These prisoners were smart like that. They stole somebody else's clothes and other inmates' clothes and numbers and plugged the holes. They were hoping to get the uprising, which they got. But unfortunately, for the victims that they stole from, well, they got the bat.Jim: They got the bat. 30 to 45 lashes, y'all. You're starting to see the brutality with Angola and why they called it Bloody Angola. Another thing that I found interesting about that entry was the fact that they would switch the labels. The reason they would do that, back in the 30s, people weren't down with convict labor like that.Woody: They still do it. When I worked at DCI, they had the crawfish plant, and they ran 24 hours a day. They brought in two 18-wheeler loads of crawfish a day and they boiled them. The inmates had to peel 16 pounds of tail meat and they got to weigh it in their 12-hour shift. If they didn't peel the 16 pounds, they went to the hole. But guess what? They packaged it under Louisiana Crawfish Company and sold it. That's the shit you buy in the grocery store when you buy Louisiana Crawfish-- It used to be when you buy Louisiana Crawfish tails.Jim: There it goes. The next time you buy, you think about that.Woody: [crosstalk] -crawfish season, they made them cut onions and they sold the cut-uponions like the Holy Trinity. But they damn sure didn't say it was done by prisoners.Jim: That's right. We continue on. And you're seeing that brutality take place. "January 5th, 1936. Narrowly missed the bat myself this day. Captain JH Row-" that's a good cager name, "-of Camp A missed credit for a carload of cane which had been sent to the mill. There's always been more confusion out in the yard when the cane cars are brought in by railroad crews at night. In this case, the weight ticket evidently became lost, not by fault, but close shave nevertheless."Woody: Wow, close shave-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah. And he narrowly missed that bat.Woody: I can't imagine there were a lot of lights and shit on the trains, they were rolling. I think about sugarcane, y'all, that's what he's talking about. Look, there's a certain time you got to cut it and get it out and get it to the mill to get it pressed. I know they were working sun up to sun down.Jim: Oh, yeah. And sugarcane was a huge commodity. Woody: Still is.Jim: It still is, yes.Woody: All right, y'all. So, the next one, his journal entry is on January 9th, 1936. He says, "It was cold and pouring down rain today. No slickers, no boots, no gloves. All camps that work in the fields, negro women cutting cane from on headland, white men from Camp G working toward them. John Henry on the turn row. Dinner served out in the open. Rain so hard, the whippoorwill peas bounce off your plate faster than you can spoon down. Menutoday, chicken, chopped grits, stove pipe gravy, soybean bread, and coffee made from horse beans for breakfast."Jim: I'm hungry already. [laughs] Woody: Right? I can't imagine. Jim: Out in the rain, y'all.Woody: Hey, it's raining so hard, you try to eat your shit before it gets any soggier, but the fat drops are hitting your plate so hard that your peas are bouncing off the plate? That's crazy. Hey, they didn't give a shit. They were getting that sugar cut.Jim: That's right. "14th January, 1936. The whistle blew today for the end of the 1935-36 grinding season. Tonnage figures showed one of the biggest years in Angola history, but no sugar on the table. They found over nine tons which had been hidden in various places around the refinery for use during the coming year by the refinery crew. The hideouts were tipped off by the Black Cat, who as a convict had helped plan it. Two weeks ago, he was paroled to the state for work in the refinery, so his first duty was to put the finger on the hidden sugar."Woody: Wow. Gave it up. Jim: Gave it up.Woody: You know that went on, man. Sugar is a commodity. Even the free people that worked in the mill, I guarantee the inmates kept some too make that homemade brew. All right, y'all, so we're going to January 20, 1936, again from Wooden Ears' diary. He says, "Camps all at work in the field hoeing stubbles. Rainy and wet today. Wet clothes worn into the camp dormitories, which are heated only by a wood-burning stove made out of a discarded 50-gallon oil drum. Clothes are wet when you put them on next morning. This kind of work cut in the weather bring a siege of pneumonia in the free world. The old saying on the Gola is, "You can't kill a convey that easy.'"Jim: You can't. [laughs]Woody: First of all, when we talk about the stubble, after you cut the sugarcane, you got basically the stumps of the roots, and they had to clear that so they could plant the next year's crop.Jim: Amazing.Woody: And wet ass clothes. I guess they slept naked.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I wonder if he got the-- I guess the big bull near the door and got to put his clothes closest to the wood. You know what I'm saying?Jim: Yeah. Shot caller. Woody: Yeah. The shot caller.Jim: "February 1st, 1936. Those alert characters at Camp B have rigged up a new wrinkle to beat the daily shakedown at the gate."Woody: Uh-oh.Jim: Uh-oh. "Where every bit of garden produce was confiscated. It often became a problem to smuggle a contraband article into the yard and into the dining room. So, the dudes trained one of the various mongrel dogs to fetch and carry. Now, the garlic and even pokes of sugar outside the fence. The pooch scrambles underneath the wire and the guards' noses and brings it into the plant." [chuckles]Woody: 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, I'm going to figure out how to get everyone. But on my birthday on February 5th, 1936, Wooden Ears writes, "it was cold and raw this morning. Camp G is working over on Monkey Island, getting in the spinach and radish crops off the overflow land before the rise of Mississippi gets them. It is said the long line must wade the bayou waist deep, going to and coming from the camp. Then, working the water over a foot deep to harvest the crop. And this in winter."Jim: Crazy.Woody: It's crazy. Y'all know Monkey Island is located where Louisiana and Mississippi meet at the rear of the prison and was a notoriously miserable place to work. An area border in Mississippi river, it remained flooded and marshy most of the year and was infested with mosquitoes and snakes.Jim: Yeah, and that's a big problem with Angola that we're going to talk about in the future is the flooding. They've had to evacuate prisoners from Angola many times because the Mississippi river water was up. We're going to move on to February 8th, 1936. "Oscar Loki, the long line water boy, finished up this eight years day for day yesterday. A Yankee lad, he came out on Angola when he was 18. He made and sold out in the field and from his profits over the eight years saved a total of $74."Woody: Whoa.Jim: Hey, that's probably a lot of money to an inmate. "His best friend, Frenchie LeBlanc, was the last to tell him goodbye yesterday at the receiving center where he was dressed out. Oscar showed officials his role of hard-earned money, flipped off the rubber band under which was a dollar bill, and found the rest of the role was merely coffee coupons." Basically, this officer took all the money. "No one knows whether LeBlanc stole the money, but Loki said LeBlanc was the only one who knew where he kept it hidden." correction, LeBlanc, his friend, stole the money, put coffee coupons in there with a dollar on top of.Woody: Thought he's rolling out with $74-- [crosstalk] Jim: [laughs] But he's got plenty of free coffee, apparently.Woody: Crazy. "On February 9th, 1936, Bill Brazil, the guard at the finery, died today. He had only a few months to go to through a life sentence. A piece of metal, lead, the size of a fist had fallen from one of the beams and it struck Brazil square on the top of his head. Two characters who were working painting the steel structure three stories above Brazil were questioned to no avail. It is not clear how the lead, which had no business in the refinery anyway, happened to fall on Brazil like a bomb."Y'all, Angola death records listed no one named Brazil dying in 1930s, but a William B. Brazil, inmate number 20030, is listed as dying at Camp B where the sugar refinery was located on April 20th, 1935. His cause of death was listed as broken neck caused by fall from being in the top of refinery. Records have also shown that suspicious deaths were oftenlisted as accidents. He is buried at the original Point Lookout Road where they bury inmates. That's crazy.Jim: Yeah, it really is.Woody: You don't want to say it's an inmate-on-inmate murder. The pen is mightier than thesword, right?Jim: That's right.Woody: Whatever. He was there, I believe old Wooden Ears saw the lead.Jim: Y'all, Old Wooden Ears tells the truth. This is his personal diary. He didn't know that anyone was ever going to see this.Woody: He didn't know y'all were going to be listening to that.Jim: Guaranteed he didn't know that, Woody Overton.Woody: Almost 100 years later.Jim: Yeah, so find that interesting too, because we talked about in old episodes how records back in those days were altered or not kept.Woody: I even wonder, you've mentioned broken backs and shit. I'm like, "Oh, yeah. You break your back," you're not jumping out of a window.Jim: Yeah, get that bat.Woody: That's right.Jim: "February 12th, 1936. Sweet potato stew for dinner and supper these days. Usually, there's a piece of meat somewhere in the pan, but you have to be mighty quick with your fingers to find it. Thank goodness they have stopped making bread with soybean flour, but they are still serving boiled soybeans on the table." Now, mills were served to prisoners in those days with typically the cheapest ingredients you could possibly find in order to save money. When the food items of any real quality appeared, it was often skimmed or outright stolen from prisoners or employees looking to make a little money.Woody: Again, the soybeans shit is shit they grew. So, we're going to February 15th, 1936. "Vernon Hancock is a saddler, a wiser man at Camp E today. Vernon, who works in the Ice House, was a big shot gambler. He owned all the poker tables. So, two weisenheimers sent out and brought two decks of reader cards, marked, of course. They finagled Vernon into buying into the decks at a bargain price, seals unbroken. Then proceeded to sit into Vernon's game. This all began three weeks ago. Today, Vernon is broke and the pair has all his dough. The two friends who tipped the switch off to Vernon after it happened, he replied, 'Well, them cards wasn't marked. I broke the seals on the new decks myself.' Barely a fool and his money."Jim: [laughs] I mean, they're running a casino in Angola.Woody: Right. Gambling is a huge thing in prison, but it says no-- the entries, along with the entry in the opposite column are just more glaring examples of how good fortune, whether in saving for the future or perceived luck at the gambling table, often created problems for everyone involved.Jim: No doubt about it. Old Wooden Ears going to tell the truth, like we said. Woody: He got no reason to lie. He's writing for himself, not anybody else.Jim: That's right. Now, February 18th, 1936. "Well, these jailhouse swindles never cease. Mitchell Lafleur-", if you notice, a lot of these names are Cajun names, y'all, "-no-read-and-write cell room guard at Camp E also has been taken to the cleaners, financially speaking. Seems a dude had a catalog with some pictures. He induced Mitchell to pick out a dame who claimed to have $50,000 and was looking for a husband. The dude wrote in the letter for Mitchell. Of course, when the replies came, the dude read them to the guard. The love interests were hot. Finally, the dame said she would come see Mitchell and marry him. Only her $50,000 was tied up in a legal snarl. And as soon as they were married, she would sign over half to him. But right now, she said would Mitchell sent her $100 for the train fare. This is crazy. "He did." [chuckles] Now, this is a guard, y'all. He gave it to the dude to send for him, and that's the last he's heard or ever will hear. Even back in 1936, you had these hustlers, man, and they were, "Send me $100." Nowadays it's through email, back then, it was through a regular mail.Woody: The calls from Jamaica, saying, "Oh, you won a million dollars. Send us $10,000 for legal fees."Jim: Went on in 1936.Woody: It only takes 1 out of 100 if you do it. If you're successful 1 out of 100, then you'resuccessful. Jim: Yeah.Woody: All right. On February 21st, 1936, Wooden Ears writes, "Getting so they put the bat in action three times a day nowadays. During breakfast, after dinner, and after supper. Foreman calls out the unlucky ones and tells the captain they are lazy or insubordinate, and the poor devils usually catch from 20 to 30 lashes apiece. One yesterday had his third beating in 10 days. How long, O Lord?" I mean, he's just--[crosstalk]Jim: Third beating in 10 days.Woody: Probably, the correctional officers were-- to the inmates who are pushing the lines, what they call them the inmate guards, were like, "Hey, we're going to make an example out of somebody." Now, they're doing it three times a day. It helps keep the other people in line.Jim: I wonder if it was the same guard that lost that $100, Woody Overton, [chuckles] taking it out on people. February 26th, 1936. "Little Doc Goodman at Camp E was strung up naked by his wrist to a beam in the ceilings in the camp lobby today and whipped with at least 50 lashes. Those who had listened said they lost count. Doc has been accused of laziness and insubordination many times in the past. His body is a mass of scar tissue from burns suffered outside. So, he seems to be immune to ordinary punishment. So, the idea of stringing him up naked was devised. He's supposed to hang there 72 hours without food or water."Woody: Wow. Crazy.Jim: Y'all, wrap your mind around that. When we tell you Bloody Angola back in the day wasn't no joke, it wasn't a joke. Now, the lengths that the prison or guard would go through to punish people apparently knew no bounds. Despite the dangers of whipping someone asmuch as they whipped Goodman, hanging him by his wrist for 72 hours was infinitely more dangerous. Such punishments, with a body position aching to crucifixion, could easily cause suffocation by the pressure exerted on the lungs and the diaphragm by three days of such torture.Woody: Not only that, three days, that's the maximum you can go without the water, right? Jim: We can never confirm or deny that that existed, but Old Wooden Ears says it did.Woody: Yeah. [crosstalk] -again, it's all, I would say, to control the population. This guy being a repeat offender, insubordination, etc., like, "We'll show you." But anyway, let's go to February 28th, 1936. Wooden Ears writes, "Safe burglars intent on plying their trade even on Angola. Last night, burrowed through the tag plant wall into the general warehouse and broke into the safe there. They say over $1,000 is missing. Or is this a red herring to cover a cash shortage? How could those guys get out of the cell room building last night to do their burglarizing?"Jim: That's freaking crazy. [laughs]Woody: Well, he had a good point.Jim: He had a good point [crosstalk] guard.Woody: [crosstalk] -missing, and you've got to blame it on a convict, right? Jim: Yeah. $1,000. And they tried to say they burglarize-- [crosstalk] Woody: [crosstalk] -accused of $1,000 in '36, that's like $100,000 now.Jim: Okay, so we move on to the next. March 1st, 1936. "Heard today Angola was going to have a doctor. Not like the one present joker who comes up from Baton Rouge once a week, but a full-time medical man. Maybe now they will start examining and classifying fresh fish so they won't be dying out in the fields of such things as exposure and exhaustion. Is this progress?" That's a good point that Old Wooden Ears brings up, Woody. That is when you're new to Angola, they put you out in the fields and bodies have to acclimate. So, these fresh fish, as he calls them, they go out in that field and they're not used to the sun 12-15 hours a day.Woody: The episode we did with Kelly Jennings talked to one guy whose first job he ever had in his entire.Jim: His entire life. Woody: Yeah. Jim: That's crazy.Woody: Them bringing a doctor in wasn't because they gave a damn about the convicts. They just wanted to keep them alive. They cared about keeping them alive so they can keep them working.Jim: That's right.Woody: All right, let's go to March 3rd, 1936. He writes, "Pursuant to an edict from the pen of the warden, there are neither dogs nor cats on Angola today. His letter to all captains said,'Dogs and cats are taking the place. I want them gotten rid of.' So, there was a general roundup and many of pet went to the river via croaker sack. They tipped me off that if farm superintendent, GAG, ever comes in to weigh on my scales, to be sure to tell him 20 to 30 pounds less than its actual weight. He's very myopic. When I wanted to know why, they said, If you don't, he'll beat the hell out of you with his stick."' Vanity. All these are interesting. Shit, this guy was very articulate for a convict in 1936.Jim: April 27th, 1936. "The count at Camp E came up one man short last night." Woody: Uh-oh. [crosstalk]Jim: "Dewey Brian, ice plant worker, was missing. He was found in the cold storage room dead drunk. The discovery touched off a smelling of breaths of having--"[laughter]Jim: This is so crazy. "The discovery touched off a smelling of breaths of having taken a covet nip of the local joy juice and everyone was pulled out and whipped." So, basically, if they had alcohol on their breath, they pulled them out and whipped them with the bat. "Brian was given 85 lashes for being dead drunk. Felt no pain." [laughs] "This morning, they had to cut him loose from his mattress where the blood on his back had dried and stuck into it. He is not the first, nor will he be the last."Woody: Wow. Crazy. Jim: I mean, wow, y'all.Woody: Yeah. [unintelligible 00:28:54] know some bad shit, but it ain't worth 80 licks, I can tell you that.Jim: Stuck to the mattress.Woody: Yeah, that's going to suck. And your whole back with scab. All right, on April 28th, 1936, he writes, "Despite a workday, which now begins at 05:15 AM and ends at 6:30 at night, the menu remains the same. For breakfast, grits, gravy and bread."Jim: "29th April 1936, Gerald Red Kramer, who was shot four times by a convict guard in the okra patch near E, got a visit from his mother today." [crosstalk] "Kramer's bed is his coffin because he is expected to die. His mother talked to him across the coffin." And there's a note underneath, it says, "Camps where a prisoner died often pooled money to purchase materials for his coffin. Generally, the camp store kicked in also."Woody: It's crazy. April 30th, 1936. "Pollywog Jones- Jim: Oh.Woody: -who was shot in the arm and leg in the okra patch at the same time as Gerald Kramer has gone to work. The foreman drove him out of the Red Hat cells this morning with a stick."[laughter]Woody: He [unintelligible [00:30:18] beat him on.Jim: Yeah, Pollywog going to learn his lesson eventually.Woody: Pollywog got the stick.Jim: I love this. "May 1st, 1936. A buyer of potatoes complained today his tubers were arriving skinned up. He was taken into the field where a long line of negroes were harvesting potatoes on their hands and knees. The buyer inspected box after box and the negro who had been skinning his potatoes was whipped. Several offenders caught the bat, they say."Woody: Crazy.Jim: Y'all, this is life back then in '36 in Angola.Woody: Day in and day out. And he goes to May 2nd, 1936, "John Francis Carney died last week in the Camp E hospital. He had complained for weeks of stomach ulcers. Pleaded for milk since he could not digest his regular fare. Dr. Gwynn, the new LSP physician, had this to say about Carney in his report to the warden. 'I find nothing wrong with this man. He is faking and fully able to do fieldwork.' The autopsy showed the cause of Carney's death, stomach ulcers and peritonitis." That's crazy. There's a note underneath says, "Angola death records listed James Francis Carney's death as August 22, 1938. The official cause recorded was peptic ulcer, chronic malignant degradation, carcinoma stomach, etc. LSP records indicate he was buried at the prison. So, he resides at one of the graves with the illegible markers or perhaps in the communal grave where the remains from the various cemeteries located near defuncts camps were consolidated." Crazy.Jim: "May 3rd, 1936. The orders gone out to all foreman in the field that they must carry a fever thermometer. When an inmate gets overheated, the foreman is supposed to take his temperature and give him a blow in the shade--" [laughs] "But most of these foremen can neither read or write. How will they take a temperature and read a thermometer?" That's a good point, Old Wooden Ears.Woody: [unintelligible [00:32:35] what a blow in the shade means.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I'm assuming, y'all, that it meant a rest.Jim: I assume as well. But he had some interesting [unintelligible 00:32:45] for that one.Woody: May 4th, 1936, he writes, "Skinned-up potatoes brought an application of the bat to harvesters at Camp C today. 15 were given from 20 to 25 lashes each. 'Can't harvest a crop without leather,' the general manager says." I guess he means, you can't push the line without a beating.Jim: That's right. "May 5th, 1936. The new issue of coffee from the warehouse today is half horse beans, parched and half peaberry." But that's good because it has been all horse beans before. There's a letter underneath that says, "Creative efforts were constantly made to enhance the poor quality of coffee available to the inmates. Any manner of items such as chicory or walnuts would be added to create a more palatable brew. But it rarely worked."Woody: Shit. For sure, they thought it was a big thing in prison. All right. We go into May 6th, 1936, he writes, "Sundays will be worked until the potato crop is harvested according to the order issued to all camps today."Jim: Now, that's the Lord's Day, Woody Overton.Woody: Right. The Lord's Day, but that's also-Jim: Workday.Woody: They didn't want the potatoes rotting in the ground. Then on the next day, on May 7th, 1936, he writes, "Milton Good, New Orleans sex fiend, got a dollar watch from the free world, thinking to make suction with the foreman. He gave it to the man today so he could tell knocking-off time. The man beat him over the head with the watch and chain, breaking the watch because he can't tell time."[laughter]Jim: That is so great. Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: I mean, ruined a perfectly good watch. Now, "May 8th, 1936. George Buckley was awarded the line pusher to job today for his diligence in keeping the man informed on who was leaving potatoes on his row unpicked." So, he's a rat, basically, and got him a job based on telling on his boys. And then May 9th, he continues, and he says, "Mosquitoes in the cell room are making the night a veritable hell at Camp E. No screens on the windows. Oil lamps after 8:30 at night. Shower bath is a pipe 6 feet long with holes punched in it."Woody: Wow.Jim: Yeah. That's just a good look into their everyday life.Woody: Mosquitoes on Angola are more like sabretooth rock breakers [crosstalk] fuckers down there on the river. On May 10th, the next day, 1936, he writes, "Shipments of potatoes to date total 253 carloads. All have gone to buyers in Chicago. Coals are being served on the lines tables at camps. It is said the tomato harvest will start about two weeks earlier this year."Jim: That was obviously a big deal for them were-- crops. That was their life--[crosstalk] Woody: [crosstalk] -everything going in Chicago. There's no gangsters in Chicago, right?Jim: [chuckles] Nah. That's it. "May 11th, 1936. I have been transferred to Camp B for the duration of the shipping season so that my job as a clerk for the packing shed will be handier. At B are about 150 teenagers who all should be either in school or at home with their mothers." Then, he continues on the 12th of May, he says, "Called camp B today over the phone and asked him for two refrigerator cars to be sent via the prison railroad. Henry von Schumer, who answered the phone, told me a fresh fish had grabbed the man's hickory stick and broken after the man struck him with it. The poor devil didn't know he had a session with the back coming when he got back to the camp. But it was poetic justice and I said, 'I'd have given $10 to see the melee.' Carried to Camp E this night where Henry, the butcher boy of New Orleans, and I painted signs until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning for Governor Elect Leche's Inaugural Ball which is to be held May 14th in Baton Rouge."Woody: Wow. That's just crazy unreal.Jim: And you can see, they used them for all kinds of things.Woody: First, they hit them with the stick, like FU, took a stick from them and broke it. And now he's going to get away with it. That's the entertainment other than me saying you that shit was coming.Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: And then writing signs for the governor? That's not illegal. Jim: [laughs]Woody: He writes the next day, May 13th, 1936, "After 3 hours sleep, I awoke with the rest of the camp. Was taken into custody to the camp kitchen where Old Tangle Eye, the captain, was waiting for me. He asked if I had ever been whipped yet. When I told him I hadn't, he told me to remove my clothes, for I was about to catch a dose of red heffer for wisecracking over the phone the day before. The captain then called in four men to hold my arms and legs, spreadeagling me so as I couldn't move. The first blow was liquid fire. It was as though I had been seared with a white, heated iron poker. I yelled and begged for mercy because if I hadn't, he would have beaten me until he could no longer wield the bat. Those trying to eat breakfast, as this was going on, told me later I caught 35 lashes. My back and up and down my thighs are all bloody where the skin has broken. I can't lie down. May God curse me if I ever forget this day, May the 13th." Note: Old Tangle Eye was Captain J. L. Carmichael, one of the more prolific applicators of flogging."Jim: Holy crap.Woody: [crosstalk] -with his first bat.Jim: Yeah. 35 lashes.Woody: You get lashed like that, I imagine you shit yourself, you piss yourself, if you don't throw up, everything from the pain. Can you imagine?Jim: They make you strip. They have you take it all off. Woody: They don't want to rip up prison clothes.Jim: Yeah, that's a good point.Woody: [crosstalk] -state property.[laughter]Jim: It is indeed. "May 14th, 1936. Back at work at the packing shed today despite my sore back, which keeps me from sleeping. A grapevine kike today tells me that Henry von Schumer received 25 lashes for telling me the incident of the stick and the man over the phone." They beat him just for talking about it. "The charge was for broadcasting camp business over the phone."Woody: What?Jim: Dang. I don't remember seeing that in the rulebook.[laughter]Woody: There are probably not the operators there anymore listening either, right?Jim: Yeah.Woody: May 15th, 1936. He writes, "Old timers at work at the packing shed after looking at my back, tell me I got only a dusting. Where whippings are concerned, 35, it is said, is light. God Almighty, what is heavy?"Jim: [laughs] This is nuts.Woody: Next day, May 16th, 1936, he writes, "The captain of Camp B told me today he needs a good office man. I said, 'I was the best.' He said I'd get better food and private sleeping quarters if I took the job at his camp. But he added a sticker. He said, 'I want you to go over in the yard and find out what the men are plotting and tell me.' I said, 'Captain, any man who tells you about someone else will tell someone else about you.' I didn't get the job."[laughter]Woody: Surprising he didn't get another bat.Jim: I'm telling you. Old Wooden Ears, turning down the job. Woody: Turning down the job.Jim: "May 17th, 1936. My back and thighs are blue, black and still swollen. Well-wishers have given salve to keep my clothes from sticking to me. May the good Lord let me meet the man who beat me somewhere in the free world."Woody: Yeah, right.Jim: Look, he's praying for vengeance on that one.Woody: He's still in the pain.Jim: And all joking aside, y'all, I mean, beating them so bad that the clothes were sticking--[crosstalk]Woody: Yeah. Your body can never fully heal because it's trying to scab over, your clothes are sticking to you, you have to rip that off and it makes it fresh every day.Jim: [sighs] Jesus.Woody: Crazy. May 17th, 1936, he writes, "Called back to the warehouse at Camp E today to check the LSP cattle inventory. This is a yearly affair. At the slaughter pins where the count was made, the tally came up 245 heads short. The cattle foreman, a free man, explained, 'The rest of them steers is up in the hills. Can't get them today.' They say the shorts has been stolen and sold to farmers over the Mississippi line." Now, you know this shit won't--[crosstalk]Jim: Likely story.Woody: I heard stories in 1990s about one calf went to the state, one calf dropped, went somewhere else. I'm not saying any names, I'm going to get [Jim laughs] [crosstalk] about it. I bet you, 235 heads? In the Tunica Hills? [unintelligible [00:42:35] -cows ain't in the Tunica Hills.Jim: Nope. They're in somebody's belly. Woody: Right.Jim: May 18th, 1936, "Preacher Doc Careway of Shreveport, a recent arrival, has laid his bible down today in the long line at Camp B. He raised his arms to the skies and discovered his belief in divinity. Said Doc, 'There can't be a god who would allow a place like Angola to exist.'"Woody: May 19th, 1936, he writes, "The potato harvest is over for this year. More than 300 cars have been shipped at an average price of $286 per car. No account has been made of the cost in blood from Angola's 300 slaves, however. I have been transferred back to Camp E to work in the general warehouse this date." There you go. The next day, he writes on May 20th, he says, "Machinery at the Pelican Cannery here is being readied for the tomato harvest. The plant will be under the supervision of Captain JNW who is head man at the woman's camp. The canned products will be labeled Pelican Cannery, Baton Rouge, and will be sold in the open market, it is said." That's crazy. In the note, it says that, "Captain JNW referred to was captain J. N. Willis. In March 1940, the cannery was the subject of controversy following complaints about the labeling and pricing of the canned goods process there. The cannery was later destroyed by fire in October 1940."Jim: "May 21st, 1936. My back is slowly healing from the beating I received last week-" Man, he started-- [crosstalk] I'm telling you, "-will leave only faint scars, I am told. But the mental scars will never heal. Today, Ray Carroll, Camp E office clerk, told me the record showed only 16 lashes. If Captain Tangle Eye had gotten his head all over the 16 he put on me, it would have killed him." We got to look up Tangle Eye.Woody: I bet there's stories on him, yeah.Jim: "May 26th, 1936. The women are to be worked alongside the Camp E long line in the cannery next week according to informed sources. The LSP policy on tomatoes is to eat what can't be canned, and can all you can't eat."Woody: Informed sources. I love that. This is how he's writing, a convict in 1936. May the 23rd, 1936, writes, "Jack Dorset and Tom Abbottsford, the former having enacted for over a year as physician here and who was responsible for many an ill man being placed in the fields were brought back from furlough violations. Both have been nabbed while passing bad checks in New Orleans and each blame the other. They were soundly whipped and later engaged in an old-fashioned bareknuckle fight. Each continued to blame the other for their arrests. It's laughable because each was only too eager to run the water on the other. Where is that honor among thieves business you hear about? Both also were busted to the field detail."[chuckles]Jim: May 24th, 1936, "Artie "Gold Brick" Joiner-" man, they got some great nicknames, "-who slept adjoining me for 11 months and who shared my tobacco and coffee all during that time was last week turned out convict guard. Today, I inadvertently passed his guard post. He racked down on me with his double-barreled flat back and was all fixed to blow my head off. Our friendship, it seems, has now ended." [laughs]Woody: Oh, my God. Jim: I love that one.Woody: He's talking about convict guards. That's what they did to keep the cost down of securing the prison. Think that, his old--[crosstalk]Jim: Cellmate for a year.Woody: His own bunkie for a year almost, and they gave him a shotgun and he almost blewhis head off.Jim: That's cold blooded of Old Gold Brick to do that.Woody: Old Gold Brick'll have to eat some soggy potatoes or whatever.Jim: I'm telling you. "May 25th, 1936. The warden put on a new sign at the Peckerwood Hill graveyard today." What a great name. "It straddles the entrance way and is a foot high in letters of old English font. It says, 'Through the sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.' But since the sign facing the roadway, the convicts buried behind it can't read it, whose sign does it refer to?" It says underneath, "Note: Peckerwood Hill was a nickname for Point Lookout, the prison cemetery. The first recorded reference to Point Lookout was in 1935 for Jesse Anderson, who was buried on Row 2, Grave 11. His death was caused by cerebral hemorrhage and syphilis."Woody: Oh, shit. We're definitely going to do an episode on Point Lookout. Jim: I can't believe they called it Peckerwood Hill. [laughs]Woody: I'm not sure of this, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't bury blacks and whites together. Maybe they called it Peckerwoods for that, that being a derogatory term for whites. All right. May 26, 1936, writes, "There were several fallouts in the Camp B long line out in the field. Heat stroke. Foreman is supposed to let them blow in the shade [Jim chuckles] if they're [chuckles] overheated. The water boy carries the fever thermometer, but the bulb is broken off the end." It says, "Note: Comments about the lack of attention given to overheated inmates were common, as supervisors seemed to feel that overheating was an excuse for inmates to rest. Despite their excuses, in 1936, at least five inmates died of heat-related causes."Jim: Wow.Woody: Crazy.Jim: Broke the [unintelligible 00:49:08].Woody: Give them that blow in the shade there, boys. Jim: Yeah, give them a blow in a shade.Woody: I want to get me a blow in the shade-- [laughter]Jim: "May 27th, 1936. George Basil Weisenheimer, a lifer, was instructed this morning to sweep off the cannery steps and porch. He did. He also swept everything in the yard and into the porch. When asked who told him to give the yard a sweep, he said, 'God told me to.' They put 30 lashes on him. He was only recently released from an insane asylum and is definitely not right."Woody: Nice. [chuckles]Jim: "May 28th, 1936. Tomatoes are on the table, stewed in water. No seasoning. Meat ration for Camp E's 375 men is 135 pounds of forequarter beef per week." Per week.Woody: Probably, one of those cows from up in the hill.Jim: Yeah. "By the time the cooks and their friends get through with it, the long line gets achunk about as big as a thumb in the stew once weekly, if they're lucky."Woody: Wow. Crazy. Yeah. The inmate guards were probably having t-bones. All right. May 19th, 1936, he writes, "They say the deducts are beginning to fly on Angola. Each employee from Captain down to Foreman must kick in from 10% to 25% of his monthly paycheck. It's either that or quit. They all pay off at the Camp E general warehouse to Nelson Beauregard, the Superintendent. The cash goes in the Governor Leche's campaign kitty, I'm told. No one knows for sure." It says, "Note: It was not unusual for politicians to apply suggestive pressure on employees and even inmates who were often conscripted as evidenced by [unintelligible 00:50:57] until 5/12/36.Jim: "May 30th, 1936. Today, up in Yankeeland, it is Decoration Day and a holiday, but it is just another workday here on the field. By 4:30, we're in for supper, and at 7:15, to bed. And early to rise sure as hell don't make anyone on the Gola half healthy, wealthy, or wise." On the Gola. "May 31st, 1936. Today I saw the corpse of five babies in the doctor's office at Camp E General Hospital. They are preserved in bell jars and alcohol. The talk is they were born to women at Camp D. No one knows for sure."Woody: Wow.Jim: That's crazy. And there's a note underneath. "Rumors persist to this day about children born to women at Camp D. Few records are available. Yet according to a 1951 article in The Times-Picayune, a child was born to a newly incarcerated woman in February of that year."Woody: I bet you some were born after they were incarcerated, the guards having a poke or whoever, right?Jim: Yeah.Woody: Remember in the first episode, it wasn't a crime for the women to be raped in prison. And if they had the baby-- now, this is 1936, a long time after slavery. If they had the baby while they were locked up, it became property of the state as a slave.Jim: That's right. Woody: Fucking crazy.Jim: Y'all, we hope you enjoyed that. That's just a little taste of his diary. What they did was they produced this in the Angolite last year and they had several issues they put out. We just read from a couple of those issues. But I'll tell you what, I enjoyed this episode.Woody: I love the history, I love the insight. This dude is writing this daily, almost daily, the shit he saw, his perspective.Jim: Yeah. I can only imagine-Woody: [crosstalk] -Angola.Jim: -years and years of that book, I'm a reader--Woody: I wish he was alive so we could interview him.Jim: Old Wooden Ears in studio.Woody: Yes, indeed. Well, we told y'all it would always be different. This is another fine example, something that Jim dug up which I think is fire and we hope you enjoyed it.Jim: Yeah. We thank y'all for allowing us to have a Season 3, all of our Patreon members. Of course, if you can't be a Patreon member, we totally get it and we hope you enjoy the episodes. If you are a Patreon member, thank you so very much. We couldn't do it without them.Woody: Absolutely. Y'all, please, if you would be so inclined, go leave us a review on iTunes or wherever. Like and subscribe to Bloody Angola. Check out all our social media. Y'all want something really cool? Now, we have our own Bloody Angola wine.Jim: Yes.Woody: [crosstalk] -$25 a bottle. We'll sign it for you and send it to you. Tell them about it.Jim: That's right. We have a white wine, a red wine, and we have a rosé, I guess is what they call it, wine. If you're one of the people that are going to the live at the Southeastern Livingston Center here in Livingston Parish, we'll have it there for purchase if you're interested in purchasing bottles. Otherwise, just message us on Facebook and we'll give you.Woody: Yeah. And we're going to announce it for the first time today. If you're a Patreon member, you get $5 off a bottle.Jim: Yes.Woody: So, instead of $25, it'd be $20.Jim: There you go. Always trying to give you more perks out there when you're a Patreon member and support what we do here at Bloody Angola.Woody: And y'all check out on our social media, the new tiers levels, that we have for Patreon members, the different benefits that you get underneath that. If you're kind enough to support us by subscribing through Patreon, we'll give back to you as much as we can.Jim: Amen. And we got transcripts available now, which is a big deal. That's something that y'all have really been asking for. Hey, we listen when y'all ask. We do have transcripts available now that we'll be uploading of each of our new episodes going forward. So, you can read along as you listen along.Woody: Yeah, absolutely. And then next week, you'll be getting three Bloody Angolas.Jim: Three Bloody Angolas a week. They're all going to be entertaining and good, and we're looking forward to bringing that to y'all. So, until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: And a podcast 142 years in a making.Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: Peace. [laughter]Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

First it was the Red Hat, brutal.....Then upon the closure of the Red Hat Cell Block came its replacement, even more brutal was the notorious Camp J.Closed in 2018 forever, Camp J was feared by even the convicts of Death Row and the most infamous solitary cell block in America.Woody Overton and Jim Chapman of Bloody Angola Podcast share the story of Camp J and the details that made it so bad.#CampJ #WilbertRideau #PrisonPodcast #BloodyAngola #LouisianaStatePrison #SolitaryConfinementFULL TRANSCRIPTBLOODY ANGOLA: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman (Camp J)Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And we're going to talk about Camp J today, Woody.Woody: Yeah, y'all. Camp J was always controversial, and certainly we can't cover all of Camp J in one episode, but we're not going to make a series out of this. We're just going to bring you some as we go along. Everything from Jim's phenomenal research on stuff and some of the stuff we're going to play today to, in the future, having former inmates that were in Camp J and all that. But let me tell you real quick about Camp J. If you go back on the history part, you remember when they closed the Red Hat cell block, they had to come up with a new area to house the worst of the worst, and that was Camp J.Jim: If you're sitting there and you're wondering, "What is the Red Hat cell block?", well, we covered that, and I believe it was Season 2's opener of Bloody Angola. One thing I'll make sure I do is link that in the description, because this may be your first episode with Bloody Angola. Woody: The Red Hat Cell Block, y'all, was notorious and they ended up shutting it down. How bad does a fucking place have to be if you're going to shut it down, when it's housing people that nobody cares about? But to get locked up in these places like the Red Hat before they shut it down and the new and improved Camp J when they opened it up, you have to be a real, real problem. Now, it doesn't matter what your crime is that you commit on the street, when you get to Angola, you get classified and most convicts do their time in dormitories. But you get locked down on Camp J was an extended lockdown-Jim: CCR, Closed Cell Restricted.Woody: -cell block. To get locked up there, you didn't just get in a fistfight with another inmate. That's a regular working cell block or admin seg thing. You had to either attack a guard with weapons, not just a fistfight. Weapons could be feces or urine also. Or get caught smuggling drugs and/or escape or try to escape. Jim: Rape. Woody: Rape. Yeah, you could call it raping somebody. You had to do something so bad that they wanted to lock you away from the rest of the prison population.Jim: Think about it as a prison inside a prison. One of the questions you may have had was, "Well, you're already in prison. What else can they do to you?" Well, they have to have a place they can send you that is even worse than the situation you're already in. You're already in jail. You're already being told when to shit, when to eat, all those sorts of things. So, what can they do to you outside of that in CCR units or lockdowns or whatever you want to call it? Camp J was the place that you went to when you broke the rules in prison.Woody: The worst rules. They like killed somebody or whatever. Jim: Shanked. Jugged them up.Woody: Killed them good.Jim: Killed them good. [chuckles] Woody: When you get sent to Camp J, you have to do 90 days before you come up for a review to be released back in general population. Now, that's 90 days without a low court or a high court writeup. And that means no rule infractions. If you're back there on your first day, and most of them do, and you fuck up, you do something wrong, guess what happens? You know you got to finish your other 89 days, or you're going to automatically get rejected. These guys aren't model convicts by any means, and they get the other 89 days to fuck up, and you can't do them anymore. So, when your review comes up again, you automatically get them denied, and then you get a clean slate for the next 90 days. But they got convicts in Camp J that are housed there forever.Jim: Forever. Woody: I mean, like so many years. I guess we should tell them a little bit about it. Jim: One thing I want to go into before we do that, just paint the picture.Woody: Oh, yeah. Paint the picture of the cells and everything else. Jim: Think of it like this, y'all. If you were like me and you were raised and your parents would do this to you, maybe you'd say a cuss word, you see how that helps us [crosstalk] saying-- Cusswords every now and then. So, maybe--Woody: [crosstalk] -get the soap. Jim: Yeah, get the soap. That's one version. But a lot of parents would say, "Go in the corner, put your nose in the corner, and stand there till I tell you to come out."Woody: My dad would just beat my ass-[laughter]Woody: -with a leather belt from Mexico which said "Mexico" and had dove imprints on there, it used to leave them on me. But I promise you, I deserved every one of them.Jim: Every one of them. [laughs] But you put your nose in the corner and you'd have to sit there till your parents-- and 10 minutes seem like 10 hours. That's your parents' version of Camp J. That's their way of putting you solitary, by yourself, where all you have to do is focus on your nose in the corner. Well, that's what Camp J is, but obviously on a much higher level.Woody: They're locked up 23 out of 24 hours a day. Most of the time, I would submit to you, they're locked up longer. They didn't get that hour out. Back in the day, they only gave them like one phone call a month. But if you got your hour out, it was for a shower and just sweep out your cell real quick because they weren't letting trustees in your cell. These are bad motherfuckers. And you get out. Now, I remember being a boy and going to Angola on a school tour, and they took us to Camp J. Outside the front of the camp, they had the exercise yards. Now it's not open yards, these were fenced in, wired-in yards, probably--Jim: Dog pens, basically. Woody: -were basically, yeah. I was going to say like 15 yards around. I remember going up and there was this convict, and he was shackled, but he only had one arm. He was shackled with his one arm and shackled to his feet and he's running that circle. But guess what? They called him Wingding. We've got an episode of Wingding. Wingding was trying to escape and they shot him at the gate and blew his arm off and they killed the other guy during the escape. We'll tell that story--[crosstalk] Jim: Yes.Woody: But Wingding was running around in circles and it's a bunch of impressionable kids and he's like, "Fuck you, you motherfuckers. Y'all coming in here and stare at us like fishing a bowl? You fucking motherfuckers, I'll kill all of you." What're they going to do to him? Jim: Yeah.Woody: He's already--[crosstalk] Jim: He's already in Camp J.Woody: [crosstalk] -like 15 fucking years. He ain't getting out. He was going to speak his mind. But when Camp J opened, it was a brand-new facility and top notch. But guess what? They didn't put a lot of money in Camp J. It would become known as the worst cell blocks in the United States of America, and probably in the world.Jim: You've heard of us talk about this before, but budgets are always an issue with prisons no matter where you are in the country. Angola is no exception to that because obviously, us as free people, the last thing you want to do is have to pay for prisoners. Now, it's a necessary evil. It's just like insurance. You've got to have it just because if we didn't pay for these prisons, you'd have everybody roaming free, and that would obviously be a problem. But Camp J, when it opened, it was brand new. Well, as budgetary things came through every year, they would cut the budget for Angola. So, what do they start looking at? "Well, we got to cut staff. We've got to cut we don't need to fix that air conditioner that broke," although Camp J didn't even have that. Whatever it may be, they cut where they had to, and Camp J got cut a lot more [crosstalk] parts.Woody: Camp J got [crosstalk] cut more than anything else.  Jim: Sure.Woody: Because nobody gave a shit.Jim: Nobody gave-- yeah. It's CCR, right? Woody: Now, think about it, y'all. If you had 6000 inmates or 5800, however many it was, you've got that certain percentage. Now, it's all rapists and murderers and armed robbers and just the worst of the worst, but most of them are doing their time, not letting their time do them but you have a real, real big factor on Camp J. I mean, that certain percentage of that population that's in Angola, they're in there for not obeying the laws, for murder and rape and everything else but a certain percentage, when they get there, they're going to continue to act out. It's the only thing they know. I'm going to tell you right now, a huge percentage of them have severe mental issues. I'm telling you like cray, cray motherfuckers. But you know what? The state, especially back in the day, they only have one doctor come in from Baton Rouge, whatever, these guys didn't get the treatment, especially the mental stuff that they needed. So, the cells are so small, y'all. It's a single-man cell. It has a shitter, a little metal iron desk, and basically about it. I think it's like five steps down, five steps back. You probably can reach your arms out and touch both walls.Jim: It's a closet.Woody: You don't have any direct visual contact with anyone else. It's just the place that you didn't want to go. Now, again, it's used to take these worst of the worst, the ones that act so bad inside for the most serious charges, and they get them out of general population so they can't continue to rape, murder, or attack staff or whatever it is that they were doing in that general population to get swung.Jim: Explain to them what "getting swung" is.Woody: Getting swung, y'all, means that when you're in the general population and you're living in all these dormitories or whatever your job may be, if you do a rule infraction, you get-- that's the term, we call it get swung. They swung your ass to the cell block. Jim: I remember when you were talking to Kelly Jennings and you used to say, "Did you swing your clerk?" And I'm like, "What? What is that term?" [chuckles]  Woody: Getting swung is something you didn't want to have happen, but it happens. Even like Kelly's clerk, I didn't have a clerk, but trustees that would have, if invariably they're going to try to get over on you or do whatever, and you swung their ass and they lost the privileges. They may go to admin seg before the hearing or whatever. If you're a real shit heel, like you attacked an officer or you raped someone or whatever, then they swung you to Camp J at Angola and you didn't want to go there.Jim: Yeah, you didn't want to go there. Just the fact that it's Camp J guaranteed when you step foot on Louisiana State Penitentiary to Angola, and you know typically it's a life sentence. So, you step foot, word travels fast. I'm sure you're walking down that walk and they're catcalling you, the other prisoners. "Hey, hey--" Woody: You remember what the one guy on the documentary said? The white guy who was coming out? I'm not being racist. I'll submit to you that if you're Arnold Schwarzenegger and you're white in prison, you got a problem. They're still going to get you. Because on a cell block, I would have if there's 100 inmates, 98 of them would be African American and you got your two white boys. That guy said they interviewed him on that documentary, and he said, "Y'all, I'll tell you what you don't want to do. Everybody knows your fish when you get there, and you're coming down the side for a walk, try to carrying all your shit, and they're like, 'Oh, let me help you carry your stuff.' Don't do that, because they come to your bunk at 9 o'clock at night and take your ass." Jim: Yeah. "Remember, I helped you carry your shit?"Woody: "Hey, man, I helped you carry that [crosstalk] bend over, boy." Jim: That's it. That's life. That's real life there. Kiana Calloway, who appeared on P2P Podcast.Woody: Which is?Jim: Which is Penitentiaries to Penthouses.Woody: Yeah, [crosstalk] check it out.Jim: They're friends of our show, and he went on there and was discussing his firsthand look at Camp J but before we play you that clip, I want to read you something that he wrote. It was a blog online, and it says, "I was just 17 years old when I was sent to solitary confinement in Camp J, one of the most severe lockdown units at one of America's most brutal prisons, the Louisiana State Penitentiary in Angola. I languished in solitary for 16 months. Back then, I didn't know that Louisiana was solitary confinement capital of the world. All I knew was that I had been convicted of a crime I didn't commit, and I had to maintain my humanity in one of the most dehumanizing places on Earth. It's called 23 and 1, because you spend 23 hours alone in yourself and 1 hour to take a shower and make a phone call if you're allowed." "There's no education programs, you're stuck in yourself with just the voices in your own head and the cries of men who have already gone mad. Most of the other people in my unit were suffering from mental illness. I remember how they would ram their heads into bars, play with their own defecation, or throw urine or feces."Woody: Getting gassed.Jim: Yeah, getting gassed. "The hardest part of living in solitary is trying not to lose hope." Remember that word, hope. We say it all the time. "Each morning that I woke up in solitary, I would quote the same Serenity prayer. Remember my father reciting when I was young. 'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.' The consequences are devastating. It's been 22 years since my time in solitary and 8 years since my release from prison. But I still have flashbacks and nightmares. Even when I'm with someone else, I can find myself secluded in my own mind. I call it being psychologically incarcerated. I'm learning to identify and deal with it, but I am still not normal."That's what Camp J was doing to people. Before we go any further, I want y'all to listen to this clip. This was directly taken from the P2P Podcast show. You're going to hear a story that absolutely blew my mind that Kiana told on that podcast. So, it's right here. Kiana: I spent 18 months in one of the most dehumanizing places that ever could have been created for a human being, and that was Camp J.Interviewer: Okay. Angola, Louisiana.Kiana: Angola, Louisiana, the Farm. So, [unintelligible 00:17:28] cell 11. They got cell 10. Cell 11 was the last cell. They had a guy named Money that slept on side of me for 10 months. Every morning, he woke up singing, "It's been a long, long time coming." Money's name was Alpha Baker. When I went to Camp J, Money had all been in Camp J for like 14 years at this time. Interviewer: Wow. In the cell block?Kiana: In that same cell.Interviewer: Wow.Kiana: In that same cell. That's why I fight for solitary confinement today. I was in Camp. J. The man had come down, shift change 6:00 and 6:00, we know it's shift change. 06:00, man come down, "Who all used the phone?" Friday. What's on Friday? Interviewer: Chicken.Interviewer: Chicken.Kiana: Exactly. "Who want to use the phone?" Everybody hands coming out the bar. "Okay, let me get the plates. How many people are not getting the chicken plate?" Interviewer: [laughs] Kiana: Listen, I didn't talk to my--Interviewer: This is the guard? Kiana: This is the guard.Interviewer: He's trying to eat. Kiana: He's getting chicken so he could swing it on the other side of the town. Interviewer: You have the biggest [crosstalk] decision. Kiana: They got Joes. They got Joes around the corner. So, it's a whole situation here. You only get one phone call every 30 days in Camp J this time. Interviewer: Really? Kiana: It was coming through the walls, busting through the walls.Interviewer: Cinderblocks.Interviewer: Who were?Interviewer: The inmates.Kiana: They bust through the walls.Interviewer: They come get you? Kiana: Yes. Interviewer: Oh, wow. Kiana: If they want you, they bust-- they coming through the walls. I'm talking about there's so many times that they had to replaster the cinderblocks. Interviewer: They just go and get moles and coming through. Kiana: Moles?Interviewer: How they get in through--[crosstalk] Kiana: You can use--[crosstalk] Interviewer: Oh, you're talking about the guy on the--[crosstalk] Kiana: In 1998, they took the cell block, they have the flap wall where you put your stuff in there, you take that up out of there, and you can go through the wall.Interviewer: No shit.Kiana: Yeah, you can go through the wall.Interviewer: So, Dudes are getting jugged up?Kiana: Going through the wall. [crosstalk] Listen to me. Going through the wall. Listen to me.Interviewer: Getting rinked? That's wild, man.Kiana: Listen, man, that is a world inside of the world, man.Jim: That was crazy to say the least, Woody. Busting through cell cinderblock to get in the other.Woody: By the time Kiana was there, certainly Camp J was known for not being maintained. They would do patches here and there and stuff like that, but the walls were rotting, the cinderblock and everything else. If you're down 23 and 1, which I'm telling you is a lot more than that, I can assure you. And you're crazy, or you're just a bad guy and you want to rape somebody or kill somebody, you just bust the fucking hole in the wall. Jim: Just bust--[chuckles] Woody: Bust the whole wall, "I'm coming to get you." Jim: Yeah. They would rape, they would go in the next cell and rape people. Some of these guys have been in that same cell for years. Rules say no more than like three months or something like that. Woody: They come up for the review in three months, but if they can't get out, they're not trying to rush them out.Jim: Yeah. Depends on what you did.Woody: Actually, the correction officers are trying to protect the other convicts and correction officers from these people, from whatever they did to get back in Camp J. Now, Camp J, y'all, the mental illness factor is a real deal. I'm talking about severe mental illness. You think about this. I believe the stat is something like, you can go insane after five days in solitary confinement. They've proven that. Not everybody does. Sometimes, it takes longer and what have you. But if you go back there and you go insane, [unintelligible 00:21:19] on the fucking rule. You can be back there forever. Like this guy that was in the cell block in the cell next to him, been back there 14 years and woke up singing every morning.Jim: Every morning.Woody: But also, right before Camp J closed, they were averaging one suicide a day. You're talking about 365 people a year killing themselves because they can't live in Camp J.Jim: Yeah. That's absolutely insane. Now, one question you may have is what is it like from a correctional officer's perspective? Because if it's bad for the convicts, the correctional officers, just another day at work? You better believe it ain't. Woody: Let me tell you this. I ran the largest rec room when I first started out at Dixon Correctional Institute and Burl Cain was my warden. I had a convict, I told him, gave him direct verbal order, which is a real deal to catch his dorm, because he was standing back and saying and he was like, "Fuck you." He walked out into the yard knowing that I couldn't go. I told the captain about it, and he said, "The next time that happens, you use whatever force you got to bring the situation under control." It was a Sunday night, convict is standing on the back wall. I cleared the rec room, and he wouldn't fucking leave the wall. I told him, I said, "Catch your dorm." He said, "Fuck you, white boy." I said, "Okay." I hit my pager and I jumped on right as he's starting the end of the dorm, and we went fisticuffs. One of the only fireable offences for civil service is not helping another correction officer when they're in a fight. My captain said he hit the door of the rec room and didn't see me. All the people with radios are coming. Then, he knew sugar turned to shit, it was a bad show. Came down there and he pulled me off. I'm in this big fight in front of hundreds of inmates. The correctional officer on the desk is like, "Fuck that. Ain't getting involved."Why am I telling you this? They sent me home that night, I thought I was getting fired. Burl Cain brought me in his office the next day and he said, "Son, I'm going to send you somewhere where you can fight every night." The work in the cell block, which was the worst one at DCI and the two admin seg tiers. The rule was if you don't want to work back there anymore, you say, "I can't handle it because it's bad shit." It's like a mini Camp J, but not nearly as bad. Jim: True.Woody: But you're fighting every night and you get gassed.Jim: Oh, my God.Woody: Gassed, y'all mean, you walk down the tier and they have screens, not cell bars. They have screens. They'll will save up their shit and their piss and throw it on you. And then, they know you they're going to catch that ass whipping. Even if they act bad in that cell there, you've got to extract them and take them out and put them in Admin Seg until they hear them, whether they're going to fight, they flood, toilet flooded. Then, they'll cover themselves with shit and piss. So, you got to put your hands on and stuff like that.Now Camp J, holy shit, if these people are killing themselves, yeah, I worked many suicides on the cell blocks, but none of them are easy. In Camp J, they're hanging themselves, or however they're doing, slitting their wrist once a day, the correctional officers, fuck, you have to be a special breed to work back there.Jim: Yeah, you really did. Just to give y'all-- paint a little picture of the size of Camp J and things like that, it was four tiers.Woody: Tiers being long rows of cells, y'all.Jim: They were 13 cells on each side of these four tiers. At its peak, Camp J had as many as 400 prisoners. Now, you may do the math and say, "Well, wait a minute, that doesn't add up if you have one person in a cell." Well, there was a time they were stacking two in there, and it's because they had so many people acting out at Angola, and they had to send them somewhere. And Camp J was the answer. And so, hey, guess what? You just got a roommate in your five-foot-wide cell.Woody: And you pray your roommate isn't mad. Not mad, like angry mad, but like crazy mad. Batshit. Y'all, Camp J, the names of the cell blocks are like Alligator, Barracuda, Gar, and Shark. Whereas, like Camp D is Falcon and Wet Bird [crosstalk] and stuff like that.Jim: Yeah, they had units.Woody: The main prison compound, the dormitories are named after trees, but Camp J was the worst of the worst. You told me this earlier, and I believe this wholeheartedly. Okay, I guarantee you to call in, and it's civil service, so you got so many days calling in sick and all that. They call in on Camp J, they're like, "Fuck, I ain't going in today." But guess what? Somebody else had to cover that shift, and they're correctional officers, they say, "Hey, you got to go to Camp J," they're like, "Fuck that, I quit." Y'all, what I am telling you about the correction officers, some of them just would rather quit than go work at Camp J. I'm going to read you from an article, so just bear with me. It's called Challenges at Camp J.Camp J became infamous among officers and offenders alike, a spot where conditions were harsh and where severe mental health issues became commonplace. In a letter, Warden Darrel Vannoy wrote to LeBlanc- y'all, that would be Secretary LeBlanc, who's over the Department of Corrections, -in July of 2017, advocating for its closure. Vannoy explained that within one year, 85 correctional officers assigned to Camp J have resigned, retired, or terminated. The challenges staff encounter at Camp J are more complex than other areas of the institution," Vannoy writing the letter, "attained by the advocate in a public records request." "Numerous times upon an officer's knowledge that they will be signed to Camp J or loan to Camp J for work detail, they will leave work sick, walk off the job, or report to human resources to resign. Completed in 1976, Camp J has four cell blocks, each with eight tiers made up of 13 single-man cells. It was used to discipline offenders following grave infractions of prisons rules, such as fighting with a weapon or for behavioral issues, officials have said, with the opportunity for offenders to earn the way out after meeting certain conditions." Vannoy wrote, "That the locks for the cells in Camp J had recently begun malfunctioning, sometimes opening on their own, and offenders had figured out ways to jam the cell doors. Often with toothpaste caps or buttons, circumventing security checks by making unlocked cells appear closed. Weapons use had been on the rise along with security breaches," Vannoy wrote, "with 44 weapons found at Camp J in the first seven months of July 2017."Secretary Department of Corrections LeBlanc said he felt especially glad they closed the facility knowing of its compromised security after hearing about the inmate fight that killed seven in a South Carolina prison. "I think we made the right decision. It was a public safety issue. A staff safety issue and an offender safety issue," LeBlanc said. Advocates say Camp J rates of suicides and attempts have become a major issue in the desolate cells. Two suicides occurred on the same day in April of 2016 at Camp J. LeBlanc acknowledged there had been some suicides at Camp J, but said they unfortunately happened everywhere in the prison complex and were not the driving force Camp J's closure.I may have got my shit wrong, but I heard from somewhere, probably somebody who worked there, that they were averaging one a day at some point. Jim: Oh, I'm sure they were. Woody: That shit never gets advertised, ever. Unless as I did in Baton Rouge, I did a story on that people at random the first day at Angola, he hung himself. Jim: Yeah. One of the key things that was said in that article just now was 44 weapons. Me and Woody [crosstalk] in a couple of months.Woody: But they're in their cells. It's not like they're out in the yard and hanging and going to work in the kitchen. Shit, they get they got 44 weapons in a couple of months.Jim: Woody and I say it all the time, that prisoners, they have a lot of ingenuity.Woody: Absolutely.Jim: All they have 24 hours a day is to think about, "How the heck can we get weapons? How can we do this?" And they get them in there. You go out to a yard anywhere in Angola and you're going to find shanks buried in the ground. That's where they put them.Woody: In cells, anywhere else. I mean, it could be anything from a melted state-issued toothbrush. It didn't take a lot to make a weapon, y'all. at Camp J, at its peak, housed more than 400 prisoners being disciplined in solitary cells for more than 23 hours a day.Jim: Yeah. Imagine that you get out, and that's if you got out, I submit to you that Kiana said that a lot of times they wouldn't let you out.Woody: Yeah, they never get out.Jim: "Oh, we forgot you need to see the sunshine, you need your vitamin D." We're not saying some of those people that well deserved being in solitary, maybe they killed somebody in there or whatever, but very harsh, harsh environment. Now, interesting little sidebar fact for you. So, Harry Connick, Jr., who is a-- man, you get to New Orleans, you know now who Harry Connick Jr. is. Woody: His daddy was a district attorney forever--[crosstalk]  Jim: And he's an amazing actor and singer. Woody: And singer, right.Jim: And Harry Connick, Jr., was studying for a movie, and I guess he was going to be a prisoner or something in that movie. He contacted Angola and he said, "Look, I want to stay like three nights in Camp J, and I want to really give him this role and know what it's like to be in solitary confinement." Angola was like, "Okay." They let him go, and he goes into Camp J. Y'all, he didn't make it one night.Woody: Not one night. Jim: Harry Connick, Jr., said, "Let me the hell out of here. I think I got it." [laughs] Woody: "I got a taste of what that's about."Jim: Yeah. I mean, not one night in Angola's Camp J. So, that tells you about it. Angola's Camp J was looked at as a punishment camp, as we explained earlier. It is where you go when you break law in prison.Woody: Serious laws.Jim: Serious laws. You're not permitted to have even the basic of things. You don't get toiletries. They give you toilet paper while you're in there, but you can't go buy at a--Woody: You're not getting any canteen--Jim: Yeah, at the canteen--Woody: You don't have any of those privileges. And canteen is a privilege. Jim: That's right. The food. Let's talk about the food for a second. You got a loaf when you went into Camp J. Y'all might be saying, "What the hell is a loaf?" Loaf is basically where they make everything for the general population that night. They might have peas, and they might have of sloppy joe, and they got a five-course meal. A loaf is at the end of the night when they take all of that and they dump it in the same trough, and they mix it up like you would your dog. They mix it all up. They make a loaf, almost like a meatloaf out of it and they just give it to you. Woody: Give it to you. The deal is, the rules are you have to feed them. They have dietitians who work in the prison, y'all. Each convict has to have a correct amount of caloric intake and a balanced meal or whatever. But I submit to you, I don't want my shit blended up. Let's say it was mashed potatoes, hamburger steak, carrots, and a piece of cornbread and a piece of pineapple turnover pie. You just mix it all up and they serve it to you in one loaf. Jim: In addition to that, another harsh living condition there was, they had no AC or heat or anything like that. Woody: [crosstalk] -screens on the windows.Jim: I mean, here in South Louisiana, it is 100 degrees in the sunshine. In a cell with no ventilation, you're talking about it being probably 130 in there during the day.Woody: Stunk.Jim: Stunk to high heaven. They would actually-- look, this was common, you'd strip naked and you would lay on the concrete because that was the coolest part of the cell, and that's how you would sleep.Woody: Right. Imagine that. But here's a problem. For many, many, many years, they didn't even have insect screens on the windows. Now, you are surrounded on the Mississippi River by three sides and swamp and all these big open agriculture fields. The mosquitoes, I mean, I know how they are in South Louisiana anyway, but mosquitoes in Angola like sabertooth--[crosstalk] Jim: Oh, yeah, they're eating that sugarcane--[crosstalk]  Woody: They like rattling the window--[crosstalk] Jim: Terminator mosquitoes. Woody: They come in, and look, you can't stop them. To me, that would make my ass go crazy. Jim: Another inmate has told a story that they had a drain that was at the end of the tier and you would wash out the cells as people would, I guess, get put back in the general population. Woody: Or when they gas officers and stuff, you still--[crosstalk]Jim: Yeah, you get spray down.Woody: You've got to get the shit and the piss out. Jim: Oh, so gross. Woody: I know when I used to run cell blocks and they got that hour out, they would clean their own cell, most of it, unless mental illness, a lot of them just didn't give a shit, but most of them don't want to be in any more stink than they have to be.Jim: Right. As they would have these issues, they would spray down the cells and there was a drain at the end of the tier. The rats, y'all, the rats, and I'm not talking mice, I'm talking squirrels. [chuckles] Woody: Killer rats.Jim: They would come through the drains. From underneath, so obviously these drains have been eaten away underneath the ground by these rats and they fit through the whole of those drains, and they actually come up from the freaking ground, come out of the drain. And this was pretty much every night. The prisoners would have to throw things at them to keep them from coming in the cell. They'd sit there and stare at the prisoners, not unlike the Red Hat cell block, and they'd be like, "Food and cotton. I see you have some clothes on maybe at that moment."Woody: "I'm about to get me some." Jim: Yeah, because they're hungry too. Rat got to eat too, and you ate all the loaf. Woody: Imagine the ones that fell asleep and did get eaten. Jim: Just a horrible situation, staring at them.Woody: As the years went on-- again we're going to tell y'all many, many stories. We should probably have our own Camp J episodes or companion episodes, but we're going to tell you many, many stories about it. It went down, opened in the early 70s and it just went to shit. They didn't care. They pretty much lost souls locked back there and I would think most of them didn't get out.Jim: They even had, Woody, a death row inmate at one point that was placed in Camp J. And his name was Abdullah Hakim El-Mumit. He sued the prison. Let me tell you why he sued them. He sued the prison and said, "I want to be moved back to death row."Woody: Holy shit.Jim: Because Camp J was so bad, he's like, "Screw that, I'm on death row. I need to be in death row." [laughs]Woody: Right. "Give me my death row privileges."Jim: I mean, it tells you how bad this was, y'all. You're suing to get to death row? Oof.Woody: Yeah. Well, a lot of them escaped by killing themselves and just the most unimaginable conditions. And no air-- Well, most of them don't have air conditioners, but not even fans, locked up 23 and 1. No canteen, no privileges, no church, no education or schools. All those things we talk about in the Bloody Angola Live, you've got to give prisoners hope. Ones that grab a hold of the hope, like the programs and stuff like that, it helps to control them from acting out. They're like, "Ah, I don't really want to lose these privileges." They don't have any fucking privileges in Camp. J.Jim: No privileges. There's story after story of just these horrid things that went on. I've heard a story that there was a stairwell, and that stairwell did not have cameras like the rest of Camp J had. Prisoners, whether it was deserved or not, I don't know, but prisoners will be moved to this stairwell and just get shit beat out of them by somebody.Woody: Where it can't be seen, yeah. Jim: Yeah, where it can't be seen. So, it was a really bad place. It's important to remember how CCR in general, whether it was the Red Hat or whether it was Camp J, why those got started in Angola.Woody: Closed cell restriction, y'all. Jim: Yeah, Closed cell restriction. Those got started because of an escape back in 1933 that we told you about. That was in response to that because before that, Angola was just open camps. They actually have one little picture of jail cell at a city hall. They have one little jail cell in each camp. That jail cell was where the guy that basically was bad went. But after that escape, they're like, "We need to build a whole freaking facility." They built the Red Hat. Of course, the Red Hat, notorious and got closed, and made way for Camp J. Woody: You've got to remember again that the Department of Corrections job is not to punish inmates for their crimes on the outside. Their job is to house the inmates while they're serving their term and to protect them from other inmates or protect you, John Q. Public, from these convicts escaping. Camp J, I think they probably started with good intentions, but it ended up being a hell hole nightmare.Jim: Y'all, Camp J was four buildings. One was actually an open dormitory, and that open dormitory was not for the prisoners of Camp J. That was for the trustees. They had trustees just for Camp J. And they would be the ones a lot of times that were cleaning feces and spraying the--Woody: Fuck, I wouldn't do it. Jim: I wouldn't want to be a trustee for Camp J. Good Lord.Woody: Yeah. I guess it's better than being in the fields swinging a hoe. Let me talk about this, Jim, real quick. I think you have a clip on it. Matter of fact, I know you do. I wanted to talk about even how other inmates think of Camp J. Now, you can say this interview was coerced, whatever, but it is by two of Angola's most famous inmates, Wilbert Rideau, who was the editor of The Angolite, and-- Wilbert is a black male. Billy Sinclair, who you heard us talk about in the Brent Miller episodes. At that time, Billy Sinclair was on death row when Brent Miller was brutally murdered. He talked about hearing the inmates being tortured and all that stuff during the Brent Miller investigation.Years later-- it's not that many years later, when there became public scrutiny in like PBS and different news channels want to look into this, all this outcry and these horrible stories they're hearing about Camp J, now CNN, Fox News and social media and all that, what they put out for is pretty much what they put out. They have Rideau and Sinclair in freshly pressed blue LSP shirts and Billy Sinclair's hair is combed neatly and both of them are very articulate, speak very well, but they do this interview. Play it for you now, and then we'll talk about it. [video clip starts playing]Male Speaker: Members of the Louisiana Coalition on Jail say they have statements from former Camp J inmates attesting to the brutality within the facility. However, two inmates we questioned, Wilbert Rideau and Billy Sinclair, who are award-winning editors of the prison news magazine, have a different perspective on the nature of the violence at Camp J. Wilbert Rideau: Look, prison is a very physical and criminal world. I'm not just talking about Angola, San Quentin, Attica, anywhere, that is prison. You're going to find violence, you're going to find force, and you're going to find criminality in it. I mean, that is the way of the world. That's the way it is.Billy Sinclair: The reign of terror is definitely an overexaggeration. It's a play on words to capture media attention. The reign of terror would be the situation that you would have if you did not have Camp J. Camp J is necessary to prevent having a reign of terror.Wilbert Rideau: The way I look at Camp J is like this. You've got all these prisoners who go into prison. When you walk through that gate, you've got a choice. You can end up living in population like everybody else. We live in population. You've got thousands of people living together. On the other hand, you can end up in a cell. Now, you've got thousands of people who've never seen Camp J. They've never been in it. Those who are in it, they had a choice. Apparently, they made the wrong choice. I'm sure they're a victim of circumstances every now and then, because you'd have that in any system. No system is 100% correct.Billy Sinclair: What Camp J does, and places like Camp J, is it permits the penal administrators to remove that segment of prison population which wants wholesale narcotic distribution, which wants wholesale protection rackets, which wants wholesale homosexual slavery. You can take when you have a place like Camp J and you can isolate that segment of the prison population from the rest of the whole population who want to go about just like anyone else in the free community, who want to go about doing their time as peacefully and law abiding as they can.Primary focus now is being dealt with Camp J and the alleged brutality that's being inflicted on the DMH at Camp J. We sort of seem to be confusing our priorities. The guys who got to Camp J and those people who are there, no one is focused upon why they're there. What about that 18-year-old kid that was raped, that was brutalized and was maimed both psychologically and physically by the guy in Camp J? What happened to him? He's lost in a shuffle and if the guy at Camp J because he throws a bowl of urine on a free man, gets rapped upside the head for doing it, that becomes brutality. But what about the homosexual rape that he inflicted upon some 18-year-old kid and the damage that was done to him?That gets lost in a shuffle. We seem to be confused in our priorities. I'm not saying it because somebody raped an individual, you're probably taking with them with ball bats. Male Speaker: Well, who's confused? Do you think these groups- Billy Sinclair: The groups are.Male Speaker: -that are filing suits?Billy Sinclair: [unintelligible [00:47:15] group has not ever alleged or made any kind of statement or charges about the brutality of prisoners protecting [unintelligible 00:47:28]. Even now when you have the jail rapes or when you have the gangrapes or when you have the narcotic traffic, the whole bit, the reform groups are not interested in it. They're not interested in what prisoners are doing to themselves and ways of stopping it. The only thing that penal administrators can do is to try to stop it and if they have to, stop it physically because their job is to maintain control. Now, when they go too far and maintain its control, then the reform groups want to jump up and say that they're imposing a reign of terror.[video clip concludes]Woody: You just heard it from two guys, were they swayed maybe by the powers that be to do this? Maybe. But the deal is, the truth of the matter is I guarantee you they slept a little bit easier at night knowing that these ones are back in Camp J for the gang rape of the 18-year-old and all that, that even the convicts that were doing their time, not letting their time do them, they didn't want these fuckers around. They were security risk also to them and made hard time harder on them.Jim: That's right. You say it all the time. People do their time and they let the time do them. There's a difference between convicts and-Woody: Inmates.Jim: -inmates.Woody: And that being, y'all, an inmate's your fresh fish, the young guys that come in always getting in fights and dealing with drugs and doing the different things. Convicts, I mean, you know you're going to die in Angola. The hope one day that you can get a better trustee position and more privileges and stuff like that, those are convicts. They don't want people to break the rules. They don't want to draw attention and have any of their small privileges taken away. Jim: No, they don't. I think it's important to, you've heard Woody use some terms on here, like working cell block. I wanted to define some of the different terms that you may have heard and you're like, "What's that?" Extended lockdown, for example, y'all, that's a single-person cell. Camp J will be considered extended lockdown. A working cell block is basically where the inmates or the convicts leave every day, they go out into the fields, and they work. Woody: Usually, they have two to a cell there, but they still have to commit such a violent crime or such an outrageous crime. Same crimes that you would do to get sent to Camp J. But the working cell blocks, they would do that 90 days without a writeup, but they would send them out into the fields every day. Not for long, y'all, because by the time you fed them up for breakfast and they came and marched them out in the field, it was lunchtime. And then, they brought them back. They got out to work. And for them, that's a good deal. Camp J, you didn't have a job.Jim: So, it was segregated but it was a working cell block. And then, you had other maximum security and that's segregated for more administrative purposes.Woody: If you just get in a fistfight with Joe Blow and you get arrested or even while you're waiting for these court dates I'm talking about while y'all are inside the prison. When you're waiting for your court date, if you get swung, you go to admin seg first, administrative segregation. You're handcuffed, you're put in a cell until you have your trial outcome. When you have a trial outcome, they'll say, "Hmm, send them to Camp J," or, "Send them to a working cell block." Now, if you go to working cell block and you fuck up again, you rape somebody or you gas a guard or whatever, you going to Camp J. Jim: That's right. And then, you also have protective custody. And that would be for example, we'll use Denny Perkins. That's segregated housing for offenders determined to need special protection. Woody: Whether you're chomo like Denny--Jim: You're a church leader that molested kids.Woody: Or you're a cop that came into prison or whatever. Jim: Then, you have death row. Of course, that's the highest security single-person cells. So you get to death row, definitely you're not going to have two inmates in the same cell on death row. That is the highest, most secure part of prison. That's where all your folks sentenced to death are going.Woody: [crosstalk] -capital punishment, but even the guy, I can't remember his long ass name that you said, that even he got sent to Camp J from death row. I guess he was doing whatever, gassing guards or COs or whatever, he was like, "Fuck that, send me back to death row." Jim: Yeah. [laughs] He didn't like Camp J too much. The last one is treatment segregation. That's where basically, for some medical reason, you're segregated. So maybe--Woody: It can be suicide watch or anything like that.Jim: In 2018, Camp J ceased to exist. Primarily, the letter that Woody read you a little earlier by the warden, Vannoy, that started that process. Definitely, the state looked at that, this is coming from the warden of the prison, and they said, "Wow, maybe we have a problem." And then, you've got people like Kiana who tell stories of inmates busting through walls like the Kool Aid Man, and raping other people, and that's real shit, y'all. He ain't making that up. They were busting through the walls.Woody: Every night you go to sleep, you have to worry about somebody breaking through the wall.Jim: Yeah. So, obviously, the place--Woody: Or the rats. Jim: Or the rats. So, just from a physical standpoint of the cell block itself, they had a problem. The second issue was it was completely overhoused. It was three times the population than it should have had in there, and that was because a lot of people were acting up, and they didn't know what to do with them. Eventually, they ran out of beds, and they were just, "Hey, if you shanked a guy, we don't have anywhere to put you. You're going to have to stay here in G-pop." And that caused a problem. Woody: Good luck. Jim: Yeah, good luck. From a physical standpoint, definitely, if not a closure, it needed to be remodeled, to say the least. But even on top of that, the conditions from a humane standpoint were a problem.Woody: I'm like, "Mm, if you gas me, fuck you," but I don't think anybody should have had to live like that. Jim: That's right. It did close in 2018, and you may wonder, "Well, what do you do? Where do you send these people?" Well, they didn't do away with segregation in prison, obviously. You have to have an answer to those acting out. So, they went to more of a CCR-type thing, where it's just closed cell restricted, but you still have access to things like basic toiletries and newspapers and stuff like that. Before that, if you were in Camp J, you had no communication whatsoever. They also ensure nowadays that you do get that hour a day, and you're not exercising it at the park, y'all. It's a little--[crosstalk] Woody: Walking around a dog cage.Jim: Little dog cage, but I mean, it's something. Keep you from going absolutely insane.Woody: Well, I suspect some convicts are more successful to be going insane regardless, but either way, that's our first--Jim: Some are already insane-- [crosstalk] Woody: That's our first story on Camp J. The ones in the future, we're going to bring out some murder stories, some attempted escape stories. Anything you can imagine, and we'll bring it from the people who were there. But this, we want to introduce y'all to Camp J. You heard us talk about it a lot, and it is what it is. It's basically hell on earth, or what it was.Jim: That's right. And we just did a live this weekend.Woody: Two lives.Jim: A weekend of lives. Just want to thank everybody who came out. We told the story of the just horrific prison murder of Captain David Knapps and the hostage taking of Sergeant Reddia Walker and Lieutenant Chaney. And it was fire--[crosstalk] Woody: Very, very important story. We had fans come in from Dallas, from Tennessee, from Houston, or whatever, just to see us and we were blessed to have them. I think we did the story justice, and it was a great success. Thank you again, Southeastern and Krystal Hardison.Jim: Oh, she's awesome. One thing we are going to do is we were videoing that particular live, and we are going to put it on for some Patreon members. If you're a Tie Down tier or above, you will get access to the actual video. If you couldn't make it, we're going to upload it as soon as we get it. It may be a week or two before we get it, but as soon as we get it, we're going to upload it to Patreon. If you're Tie Down team or above, and you couldn't make live, that's okay. You still get a chance to watch it. If you're not a Patreon member, you can join and take part of it. Woody: We want to thank our Patreon members. You rock and help make the show go. And we're doing three [crosstalk] now. Jim: Tell me about it. Woody: We appreciate and love each and every one of y'all. Thank you so much. Continue to like and share and leave us a review if you're so inclined, and just can't thank you enough.Jim: Look, one more thing, speaking of lives, there's Krewe Bash coming up on the Real Life Real Crime side of things. Woody: That's right. That's February 3rd and 4th. 3rd is a VIP event. You can go to eventbrite.com and get your tickets. Also, Saturday night, split up, y'all, if you just want to go Friday night, there's a price for that. If you want to go Friday and Saturday night, that's the VIP package. You just want to go to Saturday night, that's another ticket for that. But go get them because they're not going to be there forever. We're only a couple of weeks away and LOPA, Louisiana Oregon Procurement Agency, which Jim Chapman and Local Leaders podcast are one of the many donors that have donated to our raffle. We have $50,000 in prizes or something like that. [crosstalk] $15 for one ticket, $100 for a book of 10. Get it. We're trying to raise money like we do every year for LOPA. So, appreciate y'all go check that out. Anywhere on social media, etc. Jim: Yes. Beautiful organization. Woody: Yeah. Great people. Hey, be a hero, Louisiana Organ Procurement Agency. Be an organ donor. Jim: I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola. Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim and Woody: Peace. Jim: Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe DeRouen in Studio 433 with vocals by Thomas Cain. Created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Woody Overton.[Bloody Angola theme playing]Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This Thursday on Bloody Angola: A Prison Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman We bring you the story of Corey Miller, the brother of famed rap entrepreneur Master P and sibling to a business dynasty known as No Limit Entertainment.In 2009 C-Murder was sentenced to life in prison with no parole and made his way to Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola but has always maintained his innocence.With stars such as Kim Kardashian and Monica advocating for his release, Woody and Jim bring you not only the case itself but some information you will hear for the very first time.#nolimitrecords#masterp#CMurder#truecrimepodcast#rap#truecrime#kimkardashian#louisianastatepenitentiary#angola#woodyovertonpodcast#bloodyangola #JimChapmanPodcast #WoodyOverton #RealLifeRealCrimeThe Rise and Fall of C-Murder!FULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this edition of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Look, we've gotten more requests of this really in the past couple of months than we've ever had.Woody: Right. It's a really, really interesting case, actually born out of Louisiana, but known worldwide.Jim: Global.Woody: We're going to tie it into Bloody Angola but let's tell you about the case first. See, y'all today we're going to be talking about Corey Miller, also known as C-Murder, and he was a famous Deep South rapper. Corey was part of No Limit Records, and his brothers include the founder of No Limit and rapper Percy Miller known as Master P. And Vyshonn Miller known as Silkk the Shocker, and his nephew, Romeo Miller, known as Lil' Romeo.Before we tell you the full story regarding C-Murder, we have to tell you where he came from. He was born and raised in the very rough 3rd Ward Calliope Projects of New Orleans. His oldest brother, Percy, known as Master P, was a basketball star in high school and received a basketball scholarship to play for the University of Houston. However, Percy dropped out months into his freshman year and transferred to Merritt College in Oakland, California, to major in business. After the death of his grandfather, Percy inherited $10,000 as part of a malpractice settlement and opened up a record store called No Limit Records. Jim: That's right. In 1990, his older brother Percy released his first cassette tape. Yep, cassette tapes, remember, y'all?Woody: Cassette tape. [crosstalk] Jim: It was called Mind of a Psychopath. In that same year, he became Master P.Woody: Master P.Jim: Now, that same year, Corey's brother Kevin was killed in New Orleans. Master P, he kind of used that as motivation to get his record label off the ground and get his family out of the New Orleans projects where they were from, y'all, in the third world, the Calliope Projects. Very, very, tough, tough neighborhood. Woody: Let me tell you about this real quick. Let me interject. In the prison system in Angola or DCI, wherever you're at, all the convicts will refer to-- someone asking, I'll say, "Where are you from?" "The city." Well, the city means New Orleans. They automatically say, "What ward?" New Orleans is broken down into wards, most famously known for the 9th Ward. But each ward had its own project. Now, that's not a derogatory term. Back then, before Katrina, you literally couldn't go two blocks in any direction, even if you were on St. Charles in the richest neighborhood and you hit--Jim: Where Mike lives.Woody: Right, where Mike Agovino lives, and you hit projects. These are big high-rise buildings that the government used for low-income housing. They had their own police force even though they're part of NOPD, but they wouldn't even go in there for a shots fired call unless they had two or more units. Jim: That's right. Woody: It was rough. Jim: Yeah, it was rough. Obviously, oldest brother Percy, known as Master P, it was his goal to get his family out of the ghettos of New Orleans. It was kind of from this start that No Limit Records became a full-blown empire. Master P, in particular, became a beast in the way of business investments. I mean, just about everything this guy touched turned into gold. He was no idiot at all. No Limit invested in all kinds of successful ventures. They had an energy drink company, a sports management company, a publishing company, fast food companies. No Limit Enterprises became so successful, in fact, that in 1998 alone, the company grossed $110,000,000. Woody: That's a lot of duckies.Jim: That is a lot.Woody: Homegrown, right? Jim: Yep.Woody: Corey Miller was growing, y'all, at this time as a rapper, and his rap name was C-Murder. I know y'all have heard of that. Corey was the top of his game, and he had been the focal point of No Limited Records, and he was one of the wealthiest and most popular artists on the label until February 12th, 2002, when a Jefferson Parish grand jury indicted him for the murder of 16-year-old Steve Thomas in a New Orleans nightclub. In the early morning hours of January 12th, 2002, Deputy Brian Singleton received a call to respond to a shooting at the Platinum Club in Harvey, Louisiana, y'all, which is a suburban yours. When he arrived, Officer Singleton observed a large crowd of over 100 people screaming and running out the door of the club in a hectic state. As he made his way through the crowd, he observed over 100 to 150 people still inside. It was at this time he saw the victim, later identified as 16-year-old Steve Thomas, lying on his back, suffering a single gunshot wound to his chest. Deputy Singleton leaned down and tried to speak to the victim, but the victim was unresponsive, and the deputy radioed for medical assistance. Jim: Now, other deputies, they started to arrive, and Deputy Singleton then requested that all the doors be locked and all the officers start canvassing the club. They were going to get statements. Woody: Right. It's an active crime scene.Jim: Darnell Jordan, he worked security at the club that night, and he stated that a fight broke out between the pool table and the dance floor, and 15 to 20 people were beating down the victim. He said the victim was lying on his back and kind of trying to cover himself up. Turtling, as we call it. He was getting kicked and punched. That is when he kind of ran in and he tried to break up the fight.He said he grabbed C-Murder and told him, "Hey, man, chill out." C-Murder responded, "Aight." He then said he heard a gunshot. He also stated he never saw C-Murder kick or punch the victim, but he was about a foot away when C-Murder reached his hand into the pile of people, and the next thing he knew, he saw a flash at the end of it. In the 911 call, it's important to mention that Darnell never mentioned knowing who the shooter was. It's also important to mention that his story has changed many times regarding the identity of the shooter. Woody: Right. Which makes his testimony not worth a shit. But Denise Williams, who was also interviewed that night and said that the shooter was an individual named Derek Taylor. Detective Donald Clogher, who had been handed the lead in the case, stated that he could tell she was not being truthful, and later she admitted to having lied. She stated it was because she was fearful for her own safety, although she never identified C-Murder as the shooter. Corey Miller agreed to give a statement but was not willing to offer a recorded statement. He said he was, in fact, at the Platinum Club the night of the shooting, and he was talking to the DJ when heard the shot and was pushed out of the club at that point by an unknown individual.One of the key points, y'all, is that the detectives made note of during the questioning was that he asked about specific facts of investigation, inquired as to if witnesses were cooperating and was fishing to find out who they were. The detectives believed he was asking all these questions so that he could ascertain anyone who was cooperating with police to make threats upon them if they talk. They're talking about C-Murder, y'all.Jim: Yeah. And, Woody, you've interrogated countless amounts of individuals. Is that something that would raise a flag with you if they were asking--?Woody: Yeah. That's almost like people coming back to revisit the crime scene to watch or whatever and interjecting themselves in an investigation. The fact that he's coming back in and he's like, "Who's talking? Who's talking?"Jim: Yeah. "Y'all got any information on the case?"Woody: "Who's talking?" That's definitely the right red flag. Jim: Almost showing too much interest in what's going on. Kenneth Jordan was also a witness at the club that night. Now, he stated that the celebs, they get to skip the line and that although a metal wand is used for weapons checks, y'all have all seen that, the airport or whatever, they scan you up and down with that metal wand. He stated they don't really do that for celebrities, of which C-Murder was one. At this time, y'all, he was big. He was killing it everywhere, everything he touched.Woody: No pun intended.Jim: Yeah, [chuckles] no pun intended. He stated there was a rap contest that night, and the victim was in the contest. He said after the victim got off the stage, someone in a CP3 hoodie ran up and attacked the victim. And, y'all, let me tell you about CP3. CP3 stands for the Calliope Projects. It's basically CP and then 3 is for Third Ward, which is what hood C-Murder grew up in. Kenneth Jordan continued to say that the victim was fighting for his life when he got jumped by six or seven people and that C-Murder was not throwing punches and just watching the fight. He said once the fight was over, Corey Miller stood over the victim and shot him once in the chest.Now, it's important to note that this entire statement by Kenneth Jordan took place about a year after the murder. The case was brought up to Kenneth Jordan when he was in another case as a material witness involving the death of his baby. He said he did not initially speak to police because he feared for his life.Woody: Yeah, that's--Jim: A year later.Woody: So, on February 28th of 2002, C-Murder was indicted, y'all, for the murder of Steve Thomas. In September of 2003, he was convicted. However, in 2006, the Supreme Court overturned his conviction, and Corey Miller was granted a new trial based on the claim that prosecutors improperly withheld criminal background information on three of their witnesses. The defense, who was not made aware of the criminal records of the witnesses, stated they would have attacked the credibility of those witnesses if that information had been turned over. That's Brady, y'all. Everybody, you've got to turn it over. Jim: I do wonder though, Woody, you would have thought a defense attorney, when they see a witness list, they would just run a background check. Woody: But they don't have to, because under the Brady law, everything the prosecutor has in their file, they have to give it to them. So, the criminal records would have been in the file, but guess what? Somebody pulled them out. Jim: I got you. Technicality. Woody: That's why it was turned over. The state of Louisiana decides in 2009 to give it another shot. They set a trial date for August of 2009. This is where things get stupid crazy. Just three weeks from the trial date, a friend of C-Murder's named Juan Flowers comes out and says that he killed Steve Thomas. The questionable thing really was his confession, or with his confession was Juan Flowers was already serving a life sentence in jail by this point. It's not uncommon for lifers to try to admit to other killings to save their friends. Believe it or not, the other issue is that he changed and recanted that confession several times after that. So, the trial moves forward, and on August 10th, 2009, Corey Miller, C-Murder is convicted again and sentenced to life with no parole in Bloody Angola. Jim: Wow. Look, that confession by Juan Flowers, that's something that the attorneys for C-Murder and those that are fighting for his release, that's something they bring up. The issue with that is this guy really had nothing to lose. He was going to spend the rest of his life in jail. Woody: He was going to die in prison.Jim: He was a friend of his. Woody: If he can get C-Murder, this famous rapper off--[crosstalk] Jim: Famous friend.Woody: Famous friend. And get him off by saying, "Hey, you know what? I did it." Jim: Yeah, he can get favors in jail for the rest of his life. Woody: I mean, his family would have been taken care of and everything else. Jim: Yeah. He did come out after making that statement and basically recanted the whole thing and said, "I didn't kill him." So, C-Murder in Bloody Angola. Two weeks after he was sentenced, guess what? He gets an additional 10 years added to his sentence for a court case involving the attempted killing of two people in a Baton Rouge nightclub in 2001, y'all. And I remember this vividly. Now, Miller was in Club Raggs. That was a club in Baton Rouge, which was very, very popular.Woody: Hotspot. Jim: Hotspot. He got in an argument with security after refusing to allow them to search him. He yanks a gun, pulls the trigger on a bouncer, and the nightclub owner, and guess what? Gun jam.Woody: Gun jam.Jim: Thank God for that. He's probably glad that it jammed too, because he didn't get charged with murder right there. This was all captured on camera. One of the bullets actually ejected after the jam. That's how close it was to going off. So, you know that he actually pulled the trigger if one of the bullets ejected.Woody: It just didn't fire. Jim: That's right. It's really important to mention that he was free on bond with that case when the case with the nightclub incident involving the killing of Steve Thomas took place. That's huge. Woody: It's crazy.Jim: You know what? Stay out of the bars at that point. You're already in trouble, and you go out and this happens. Time marches on, and C-Murder, he's kind of working through this appeals process, which it pretty much gets exhausted in 2014. Then in 2018, Kenneth Jordan? You remember those two Jordans I told you about, which incidentally, they're not related. Kenneth Jordan, one of the prosecution's star witnesses, comes out and states he was pressured to finger Miller for the killing or face a 10-year sentence for another crime he was involved in. Then the very next month, the prosecution's other star witness, Darnell Jordan, recanted his statement, stating he was detained and locked in a hotel room by police who pressured him to testify against Miller. And, y'all, as I said, these guys are not related. They just share the same last name. Woody: It's crazy. I'm going to interject a little bit of a personal knowledge about C-Murder, Corey Miller, y'all. So, he's up in Angola. He's doing his time. He's famous. Like I said, he's doing his time. Whether he could have told who the actual shooter was, if he wasn't or whatever, he's living by the street code. He ain't saying dick. But he's doing his time, not letting his time do him. Now, my mother-in-law was the head of security for the visitation room at Bloody Angola. Guess who is very popular to be visited? Corey Miller. All right, I'm going to tell you, I talked to her. My wife talked about it and I listened last night because I remember her telling me about C-Murder back in the day when you brought the story up and said, "Call her and ask her anything that she could tell us about him." All right. What she said, he was very tall, maybe 6'6". Jim: Listed as 6'4".Woody: But this is her memory. She said he was skinny, not real muscular, but it showed that he worked out some prison muscle, but he was still skinny, but said he was very nice. He liked you. He was super polite to you. And he liked you, he let you know it. Master P, his brother, would fly in on a helicopter and land inside the wired Angola, and they took him to the ranch house. Now, we talked about the ranch house in past episodes. Ranch house is where Burl Cain would hold his meetings with dignitaries, and they would cook them the prison meals and all that. Well, guess what? Master P got to have his visitation in the ranch house. It's pretty cool. She said that they developed this personal relationship, and she called him C instead of Corey Miller. Sometime during his incarceration, he had a video that came out, and C actually asked my mother-in-law to go watch and say, "What do you think of the video?" Jim: Wow. Woody: She told him about what she thought of it. She said there also was another famous short rapper in there, she couldn't remember his name, that couldn't stand C-Murder. Jim: Come on. Woody: Yeah, so there was a beef between them. They couldn't have visitation at the same time, everything else. They probably would have killed each other. Jim: Wow. Woody: So, she was made aware of that. He told her directly. He said, "You know what? I believe I have more purpose in this life." She said he would stop in the visitation room while other people were there in there. It's a massive room, y'all, with all these tables and some vending machines, and they get screened. Family members come in, and people would come up to him while he's in his visits, say, "Hey, will you give me your autograph?" And he'd do it. Said he was a cool, nice guy. Said he took good care of his girlfriend. His girlfriend came every other weekend to visit. She doted on him. Also, the son of the girlfriend thought of C as his daddy. And he had a big family, and they would come see him almost all the time, every chance they could. The family also went to every one of his court dates during this appeal process we're talking about. But check this out, C-Murder, all hardcore, right? Was a mama's boy. Jim: Hmm.Woody: Absolutely doted on this mama. She said his mama was a big woman, big boned, and she always wore a T-shirt that said "Free C-Murder" when she came to visit. Jim: Wow. Woody: Master P ended up buying their mama house on Tchoupitoulas. She got to hang out with him and talk. You know what she said? If you didn't know he was in prison for murder, she said, "Hell, we were friends. He could have spent the night in my house." Jim: Wow. You've got some scoop there, Woody Overton. Look, that's inside info. Woody: That's the Bloody Angola scoop.Jim: You can't get nowhere--[crosstalk] Woody: Bloody Angola scoop. So, that's a personal account. Of course, she's now long since been retired, probably five or six years. Jim: Very interesting. A helicopter, huh? Woody: Helicopter flying inside the wire and getting private visitation at the ranch or whatever. Jim: That's pretty cool. Woody: All right, so, y'all, he was popular. In 2020, a series of tweets were placed by a very well-known celebrity and influencer, Kim Kardashian. Everybody knows about Kim. She joined the fight to free C-Murder after hearing all the inconsistencies in his case. In a series of Twitter posts, she stated she is teaming up with R&B singer Monica, C-Murder's ex-girlfriend, in the fight to get the 49-year-old rapper's murder conviction overturned. "My heart goes out to the family of Steve Thomas. I can only imagine how hard this is. My intention is to never open up this painful wound, but to help find the truth behind this tragedy. True justice for the young man requires that the person who actually killed him be held responsible and that Corey Miller be returned home to his kids." Y'all, that was Kim Kardashian's statement. Jim: That's right. With no further ado, we'd like to welcome our guest, Kim Kardashian, to this sh-- No, we-- [crosstalk] Woody: Kim, how are you doing?[laughter] Jim: But, Kim, if you want to come on--Woody: Kim, didn't you just graduate from law school? I think she did. Jim: [laughs] I think you're right. She's not really here, y'all. Woody: Yes, she is.Jim: If she'd like to come on, come on.Woody: You can just bump up the ratings. Kim, come on down. Jim: That's it. Yeah. A lot of people out there advocating for C-Murder and think that he, for lack of a better term, got screwed on his conviction. As recently as March 3rd, y'all of this year, so just occurring-Woody: Last month. Jim: -last month, C-Murder is making headlines, and his manager released a statement related to a recent hunger strike he's undergoing to protest conditions at Elayn Hunt, where he was transferred in 2018 from Angola. In 2018, commonly-- well, I don't know how common it is, but prisoners will get transferred to different prisons after being at Angola so long. [crosstalk] Woody: It could be some security reasons also. Like that little rapper my mother-in-law was talking about, it could be he used his influence and maybe Master P can't afford a helicopter anymore. And Elayn Hunt is a hell of a lot closer to New Orleans than Angola is, being right outside of Baton Rouge, y'all, in St. Gabriel. It's pretty crazy.Jim: In these hunger strikes that they do, this is common. One of the most powerful ways that convicts have to protest, especially conditions in prison, is through starving themselves. And it gets attention. Woody: Not Burl Cain's, let me tell you that.Jim: Not Burl Cain, yeah.Woody: Burl Cain is on tape. One inmate or convict came up and said, "Warden, I need to talk to you." Well, Burl Cain knows his business. He told him, the inmate, the convict, said, "Aren't you on hunger strike?" He said, "Yes, sir, I am." Burl said, "Well, boy, I'm not goi--" Not boy. Jim: [chuckles] Woody: He said, "Sir, I'm not going to talk to you while you're on hunger strike. You go ahead and get you a good meal and I'll come back and talk to you." Jim: There you go. So, he didn't put up. But we're going to read this statement from his manager regarding that. It says, "On behalf of the Miller Family in an ongoing campaign to have justice served, Lisa Jackson, publicist, and Steve Johnson, manager for Corey Miller/C-Murder, are requesting the release of information to the public about Corey and his current situation at Elayn Hunt Correctional Center. We are asking Kim Kardashian, as the prison reform legal team representing Mr. Miller, to help bring immediate public awareness to Corey's situation, wrongful conviction from the state of Louisiana, the state of Louisiana's suppression of evidence, inhumane treatment conditions at the prison, and it is imperative now more than ever that a quick strategy move is made as his health has significantly declined due to the prison system's inhumane conditions. Fortunately, and unfortunately, we have a disturbing visual and written information about Mr. Miller's situation." He goes on to say, "Mr. Miller recently passed out. He received no follow-up medical care in response. And because Mr. Miller asked for and did not receive an investigation in the circumstances of his passing out, he was placed in solitary confinement as retaliation. Corey continues to suffer from chronic dental issues that have led to significant weight loss and have been denied much needed thyroid medication because the state of Louisiana says they cannot obtain the necessary medications. Because conditions at Elayn Hunt have not improved, Mr. Miller is engaging in a hunger strike that began on February 23rd to bring awareness to his and all his inmates' neglect and abuse at the hands of the penal system. The neglect of inmates in the penal system has been well documented by Mr. Miller and others." So, basically, his manager, he's basically saying Corey Miller ain't doing so well right now. Woody: Yeah, well, you know what? Listen, I'm going to call bullshit--[crosstalk] Jim: I knew you would. [chuckles] Woody: You can only go like five days without eating or less time without water. I'm pretty sure C-Murder has gotten couple of Ramen noodles passed through his door or whatever. The whole medication thing and all that, if that's true, they better believe they're going to get that shit straight. But one of the reasons they may have moved though to Elayn Hunt is they do have a, believe it or not, a better medical staff. I can't say better, but they have more access to the local hospitals and everything else. So maybe he's needing to see specialists? I don't know.But the problem with this, y'all, is Steve Thomas is dead. From what I understand, this garnered a lot more national attention. What was the show? I like that show. They go in and investigate cases and see if there's been an injustice in it. He was on this show. And, Jim, you sent it to me. Actually, he was on it by phone interview but his family, his ex-wife and his daughter brought this cracker jack investigative team in, one that was a defense attorney, the other one was a career criminal investigator like me, and they investigated the case. Jim: Yeah. And it was called Reasonable Doubt. Woody: Reasonable Doubt. That's it. I think it's like Season 2, Episode 3 if you want to check it out. They worked it. And C-Murder basically said on the phone, basically he knew did it, but he ain't saying. Jim: Yeah. The interesting thing about this show was they brought up several key points of evidence. One was the fact that somebody had confessed to it. We already told y'all the story there. The guy just is not believable. He keeps changing his story. In addition to that, they brought up a chain. There was a chain that-Woody: That Steve Thomas was wearing. Jim: -Steve Thomas was wearing that when he got killed. Somebody yanked that chain off him.Woody: Yeah, during that fight with the beat down. Jim: The DNA did not match C-Murder's DNA. Woody: It really didn't match anybody.Jim: Correct. Woody: He couldn't be excluded or whatever, but it doesn't matter, y'all. DNA is not like you think it is. Just every time you touch something for a second, doesn't mean your DNA is going to be on it. They proved it by an expert that if somebody just grabbed and yanked it off, chances of their DNA being on there are very slim. Jim: Yeah. They basically dispelled most of the cases, I guess, for his release. There just wasn't anything there. In that interview, as Woody said, where C-Murder was actually on the phone, I guess you could say he alluded to the fact that he kind of knew who did it, but he has a code that he lives by.Woody: One of the witnesses said that it was one of C-Murder's crew that actually pulled the trigger. They exited the club and when they asked them where the weapon is, and they said they threw it in the Mississippi over a bridge coming back in New Orleans because Harvey is across the bridge. Jim: Yeah, and the problem with that was C-Murder was with them and he becomes a what? Woody: Accessory. Jim: Yeah.Woody: Same thing. He would have got-- Principal 2-- Louisiana Vice Statute 1427 principal 2, basically accessory and he'd have gotten the same charge. But they said he's standing up and doing his time. It is what it is. Jim: It is what it is. Woody: I don't know how you get it, but he's no longer in Bloody Angola. But he did some time. Jim: Yeah, and as of this recording, he's still serving the rest of his life in prison for this. Look, man, if you didn't do it, you're going to have to say who did or you're going to ride that sentence out till you die.Woody: That's it. Jim: That's just the bottom line. We wanted to bring this episode to you. We had a lot of people ask us too. There were a lot of questions with regard to C-Murder. He's a very popular part of society, even still 21 years after this has taken place. Woody: Well, people don't even know that he was a veteran. Jim: Yeah, he was. That's right.Woody: A military veteran. The same war that I was veteran of, the first Gulf War. You'd think him and Master P, they display themselves as the gangster life, whatever. Master P got a college education. Jim: Let me tell you, that is a persona and that guy is a businessperson. You cannot reach that level of success in life without being very smart and have a very high business acumen. That's the bottom line. Woody: I think when you start believing your own height, and certainly you're the most popular person at nightclub held about 400 or 500 people, y'all, Platinum did or Platinum, whatever they call it. Supposedly, Steve Thomas was on stage rapping. It was like a rap battle. He got off the stage and maybe C-Murder's crew didn't like it and they gave him the beatdown. Jim: Well, there was even a rumor out there saying that in that contest, he out-rapped everybody else and a lot of people were saying he was better than C-Murder, and that basically he was killed because of that. And C-Murder responded to that in that TV interview and said, "Man, I have way too much to lose. I'm not going to kill a guy because everybody thought he was better than me that night or whatever." I believe that. I don't think that's why.Woody: A lot of people said that Steve Thomas was actually C-Murder's biggest fan. Yeah. Jim: Yeah. His own family. His mom and dad said he had posters of Master P. Woody: He's a huge C-Murder fan. Jim: Yeah. Woody: He ended up dying, [unintelligible 00:34:08] for them. You know what? The silent code-- A lot of times I say the streets talk, that's what they say. The streets talk, but a lot of times, they don't. In this case, he wants to die in prison for that. Now, I think it's too late. All these people recanting stories and all that, it's just to validate you as a witness on the appeals process. My prediction is like Rocky 3. They ask Mr. T, "What's your prediction?" "Prediction is pain." My prediction is C-Murder is going to die in the custody of the Department of Corrections. Jim: Yeah. Just a tragic waste to what-- He could have kept on going and just rocking it in the rap world. We say it all the time, I say this a lot, and that is you're one decision away from ruining the rest of your life. Woody: One split second, man. [crosstalk] Jim: All it takes. Woody: That's it. Jim: Yeah. And he's a prime example of that, sadly.Woody: Lifestyle called him. Y'all, I want to thank our Patreon members. You are absolutely the best. Jim: Oh, they are. Couldn't do this without them.Woody: Curious every single month. Our Bloody Angola is rocketing up the charts. This past week, it jumped 20 something. Jim: 22 spots. Woody: 22 spots. I predict next week after Real Life Real Crime Dateline--Jim: 22 more spots. Why don't you put it in negative too? [crosstalk] [laughs] Woody: We're going to be in negative too. I predict we're going to number one, y'all, but Patreon members, we couldn't do without you. If you want to become a patron, you can go to patreon.com and type in Bloody Angola. It has all the different tiers. Jim: We do transcripts on there, Woody, for our upper tiers. But even the very first tier, you're going to get commercial-free early episodes every week. We release extra and bonus episodes as you go up those tiers. Woody: [crosstalk] -episodes. Jim: Yeah, we got several locked up that nobody's ever heard on the regular Bloody Angola series. Woody: And never will. They're for our Patreon members. You know what? It takes money. This is a business and takes money. And we love doing it. We're always going to do it. Y'all have been so great to us. If you would, make sure you subscribe and like us, and if you get a chance, go, leave us a review.Jim: Very important. Those have kind of slowed down as of late. So, please.  Woody: Leave us a review. We love and appreciate each and every one of you.Jim: And look, we got a Facebook page. We don't want to forget to mention that. Go to the Facebook, give it a follow. It's been building. I love seeing those analytics on Facebook grow and grow. That's just what it's been doing. But nobody will know if you don't tell a friend. Woody: Also, every week now, we're going to list every single episode of Bloody Angola in the Real Life Real Crime community app. Also, the advertisement, whatever the episode is going to be, if you're scrolling through that app, you'll be able to see it there also. Jim: Yeah. Go to Real Life Real Crime, download the app and you'll have access to those episodes. Last thing we want to mention. This is Thursday, so tomorrow, 8 o'clock Central, 9:00 Pacific. Real Life Real Crime, two-hour special, Who murdered Courtney Coco? Dateline, NBC. 16 million viewers.Woody: 135 million in 30 days. Jim: Wow. Woody: Between their podcast and everything else. And y'all, horrible story. We were very blessed to have Lifers and fans, and most of them are fans of Bloody Angola also, y'all helped solve that case. Go tune into it. Share it. It's a beautifully tragic story.Jim: It really is. It'll give you the amazing story of this man across from me and what he did and went through to really see that justice was done for Courtney, which is amazing.Woody: I'm going to do a little spoiler alert, if I could say it, spoiler alert. One day we can do an episode of Bloody Angola at the conclusion of a Dateline story because somebody's in Bloody Angola. Jim: Yeah, that's right. Tune in, please. 9 o'clock Pacific, 8 o'clock Central on NBC on Friday. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Unison: Peace. Jim: [laughs] [Bloody Angola theme playing]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Part 2 of this amazing story is here!In June 2016, Andrew Hundley became the FIRST juvenile lifer in Louisiana to be paroled following the U.S. Supreme Court's Miller and Montgomery decisions that prohibited the mandatory sentencing of children to life without parole. It was clear that he was not the same 15-year-old who went to prison in 1997 to the parole board who approved his release.Since his release from Angola, Andrew has earned a Masters degree in Criminology, is founder of the Louisiana Parole Project and is known in all circles of justice as the real life Andy Dufrane.Whatever side of this issue you sit, you will not want to miss this episode.In this episode Woody and Jim sit down with him for an in depth interview you are not going to believe on Bloody Angola Podcast.#BloodyAngolaPodcast #LouisianaParoleProject #AndrewHundleyLouisiana Parole Project website:https://www.paroleproject.org/Check out P2P Podcast (Penitentiaries to Penthouses) Here:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-p2p-podcast-penitentiaries-2-penthouses/id1646270646?i=1000586120763SECOND CHANCES PART 2 TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Bloody- Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And we're back for Part 2, Woody Overton.Woody: Part 2, Second Chances with our main man.Jim: Andrew Hundley. How are you?Andrew: I'm well.Jim: I feel like we just talked to you. [laughs]Andrew: Thanks for having me back.Woody: Yeah, [crosstalk] right. Andrew, I just want to say that it's an amazing story, y'all. You've got to go listen to Part 1. I don't think we've maybe done one or two series on Bloody Angola that-- actually series, one or two episodes that went past episode 1.Jim: The only one that we did was Archie Williams.Woody: No. Brent Miller.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, two, you'll be the third. Thank you for being here, I really appreciate it. Y'all go back and listen to the first one if you haven't.Jim: Yes, please do.Woody: When we left off last, you were at state police barracks out at JESTC, and you gotto finish telling me how you got swung.Andrew: Yeah, I had unauthorized female visitor, to keep it PG. [laughter]Andrew: I had a female friend who visited me at the office I worked at one evening. I knew that wasn't supposed to happen. It happened. And I understand that you keep visitors off of the premises because you never know who's going to be coming out there, what they're going to be bringing out there.Jim: I ain't hating on it. I don't blame you. [laughs]Woody: [crosstalk]Andrew: [crosstalk] -I'm not the first guy to get in trouble and probably not going to be thelast guy that got into that kind of trouble. Jim: Some things are just worth it. [laughs]Woody: Everybody you see today and the rest of your life got there because two people had sex.[laughter]Andrew: But it was against the rules. They actually didn't move me immediately because my job that I had--Woody: They didn't want to release you.Andrew: I had to finish some job responsibilities. But they said, "Hey, you're going to have togo." I said, "I want to go to Angola."Jim: And wow. Before you say anything else, that's just like-- Woody: You're one of the only people ever said that--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, you might be the only one to utter that sentence.Andrew: Well, and I recognize and I had done enough time and met enough people who had been to Angola and who, in prison speak, were successful at Angola. They had done well. And I wanted to be a trustee. At state police barracks, I was a trustee but the only place as a lifer going if we say back into DOC, I couldn't go to DCI or Wade or Hunt or any of these other prisons [crosstalk] have to go to Angola.Jim: What year was this?Andrew: Oh, that was in 2012, 2013. Jim: So, it was post Burl Cain? Andrew: No, Burl was still there. Woody: Burl was still there.Jim: Okay.Andrew: When I first get there, I actually go to Bass. For my first couple of months, I was a cell block orderly at Bass, paying my penance. As soon as I got there, they told me, "Look, keep your nose clean, out of sight, out of mind for a couple of months, and we've got a job for you." They told me this as soon as I got there.Woody: That's really cool.Jim: Your reputation preceded you some way probably.Woody: Another unique thing about what you're saying is, I don't think people understand-- I would say you might have a better number on than me. Most people at Angola are nevergetting out, like 80% or something like that. But to go in and have to do 10 years to make trustee without a low court or high court writeup, holy shit, bro, that's almost impossible. So basically, they're telling you, "Keep your nose clean, lay low for a couple of months and you shake it out, we got a job for you," basically, you almost were like getting credit for time served already.Andrew: Right. They gave me credit. Look, I had a unique experience. Woody: Meaning, credit under the trustee program.Andrew: I used to tell people I did my time like Benjamin Button. [laughter]Jim: In reverse.Andrew: Yeah, I did my time in reverse. Most people start at Angola and they're either going to die there or there are some old timers who after they've been there for a few decades, they'll allow a transfer to a prison closer to their home if they request it, if they have space. For me, I ended at Angola and did my last few years there.Woody: I got to interrupt because I'm visual. You ask to go to Angola, and had you ever been to Angola before?Andrew: I'd been only for boxing matches. I had been there for those kind of trips.Woody: So, you're taking that ride up, or they giving you the ride up and you hit the gates and you go inside the wire the first time. Do you have any different impression? What was your impression?Andrew: I was thinking, "Oh, man, I hope I made the right decision." [laughter]Woody: Right, because this is like the Harvard of convicts.Andrew: Yeah, because I'm starting to second guess because it's like, well, if I would have gone back to the smaller prison, I was big fish in a small pond. And now, I was telling myself, "You're just another lifer here. You're going to be lost in the shuffle." But thankfully, I wasn't lost in the shuffle. Thankfully, my reputation did-- I did have a good reputation.Woody: I'm sure somebody called and gave them a heads-up and say that, "You better get your hands on this dude because he's the bomb."Andrew: I got there. You go on this review board as soon as you get there, and it's medical, mental health, security, classification, and they're trying to figure out where they're going to send you. A lot of guys will start off in a cell block, or some guys will go into medical facilities. Some guys will be under mental health observation. And never having lived at Angola but new Camp J is not the place to be.Woody: Right.Jim: Don't send me to Camp J.Andrew: The major who was on the review board is like, "Hey, I got a call about you. Let me see what they want--" He's telling pretty much everyone on the review board like, "Someone's about to make a decision where this guy's going to go. We're not going to make the decision." He gets off the phone and says, "We're sending him to Bass." And I was like, "Okay. Where is that?" He's like, "You're going to Camp J." And I'm like, "Oh, my God. I thought I'm coming here to be a trustee."Jim: You're sending me to lockdown.Andrew: And I'm going to lockdown because you go to J when guys on death row screw up. They get sent to J, to the cell blocks at J because people would rather be in their cell on death row-Woody: Absolutely.Andrew: -than be at J because J is wild. Now look, today J has been shut down for a fewyears because of talk about-- Jim: [crosstalk] -reason for that.Andrew: Look, Camp J is four cell blocks and one dorm. They have a few guys in a dorm that are cooking for the guys there. They're taking care of the place, taking care of the yard. You hear J, you assume the cell block. Just having worked in the cell blocks, these are guys with significant mental health issues.Woody: Most of them, yeah.Andrew: They're throwing feces on each other. They're throwing stuff on the guards. They're guys who've been back there so long and there's this mentality in prison, bar fighting. And you make enemies in a cell and you throw stuff on so many people. You've seen this guy, he comes out on the tier for his shower. Y'all stay up all night cursing at each other because that's just how time is done. And then, you get into it with so many people, you're back there a couple of years and they say, "Okay, it's your time to come out." Like, "Oh, no, I can't go into population because I've threw crap on so many people."What these guys don't realize is, look, all y'all have thrown crap on each other. Y'all cursed each other out, talked about threatened to kill each other. You get out, chances are, "All right, man. We're in population now, we're going to put that stuff behind us." But so many of those guys, they've developed these enemies, and then they just dig their hole deeper and deeper. There are guys who've been back there decades and refuse to come out of their cells.Jim: Damn.Woody: The listeners know, like you're talking about, to get sent to Camp J, not the dormitory, but to get housing and cell on Camp J, you had to break a rule in prison. Not just regular fist fighting. It's fighting with weapons or attacking an officer or raping someone or whatever it may be, it's a serious infraction. You don't get classified and sent to Camp J immediately, most people. You get sent to wherever, and then if you're so bad that you can't follow the major rules inside-- those rule infractions, they could be a street charge too. But if you're so bad that you can't live in the general population with the worst of the worst, or what's considered to be the worst of the worst in America, you got to send to Camp J. It's a huge mental issue. I agree with you, like 90% of that shit is mental.Andrew: They call it the Behavioral Management Unit.Woody: Yeah, right.Jim: [chuckles] That's one way to put it.Woody: You lock them up and throw away the key.Andrew: The reason that they had to shut it down was it's an old cell block, and they couldn't repair the cells. Guys would open up cells, jump on guards.Jim: Oh, my God.Andrew: [crosstalk] So, whenever they sent me, they said Bass, which is the name of the dormitory, the general population dorm for the guys that work and serve. Luckily, it was like, "No, we're sending you back here," they did me a favor because it's like, hey, they recognize, "This is a guy that's done a lot of time. We have something in mind for you. So, we're going to put you on timeout."Woody: And show you what the worst could be if you want to fuck up. Jim: Yeah.Andrew: They told me, "Give us a couple of months." Those couple of months, it's like no one else talks to me after that. I remember day 30, day 45, I'm thinking to myself, "These people told me-- they've forgotten all about me." I remember seeing the assistant warden over the camp after I'd been there about two months, said, "Hey, I don't know if you remember me," he's like, "Yeah, I remember you." "You haven't looked at me. You haven't acknowledged me. Just want to make sure." He said, "Have you hit your two months yet?" "I'll hit my two months at the end of this week." He said, "Okay, we'll see what happens." Two days after I hit my two months there, they came to me and said, "Hey, we're moving you to Camp F, and you're going to be working out on the range crew. We're going to make you the clerk on the range crew."Jim: That's awesome.Andrew: What it ended up being, obviously Camp F is the old timer camp, class A trustee. Iwas in my 30s, I was the youngest guy at Camp F. [laughter]Andrew: By like 20 years.Woody: Yeah.Andrew: The youngest guy. There may have been guys that weren't quite that much older than me. But I go back there, and I have this job and I didn't realize how great of a job they were giving me. 18,000 acres, the thing that's awesome about the range crew is you have trustees that get to leave whatever camp, leave the main prison, get outside the fence, be on the property. But the thing that's awesome about the range crew is cattle there-- on just one little spot of the prison, there's cattle from the front to the back of the prison. So, when you're on the range crew, you have access to the entire prison. When I say the entire prison, I mean the property.Jim: So, you were a cowboy?Andrew: I was a cowboy. I wasn't born a cowboy. Jim: [laughs]Andrew: I learned how to ride a horse. Learned how to take care of cattle. The cows at Angola are 2000 head of cattle, not counting the bulls and not counting, given time of the year, when mamas are dropping calves. There are actually a lot more cattle there but every cow is on state property control. They're branded, they're tagged.Woody: Oh, my God. I remember-- [crosstalk]Andrew: When John Kennedy was State Treasurer, he used to give DOC hell, "How the heck do you lose a cow?" I was a guy that if I read that in the paper, I would think the same thing, "Well, how the heck do you lose a cow?" And I learned on 18,000 acres, it's really easy to lose a cow because if a cow goes in a drainage canal and dies--Woody: Or a gator gets--[crosstalk]Andrew: You're hoping that the buzzards are going to tell you where they are. So, part of my job was to keep up with the cattle that were on state property control and to do continuing inventories, order the meds, order the vaccines, along with just general clerical responsibilities around the range.Woody: You have a brain that I don't because my entire state career every fucking year when I had to fill out these property forms and serial numbers and I hated that shit. I'd rather be kicked in the nuts than have to fill out one of those. You were doing it every day all across the whole scale.Andrew: And then, another job responsibility I had once I got the job was assisting with the management of the rodeo as it relates to the rides. In my job, I was responsible for the fall and spring rodeos, to get the riders signed up and to assign the rides. There are people who-- the stock contractor comes in. There's, obviously, Alan Barton and his crew are managing what's going on inside the arena. There are acts coming in. Security is getting the public in. There's the hobby craft. There's the concessions.But the guys that are participating, someone has to organize them, someone has to decide who's getting what ride. It's sort of interesting because that's really a high-pressure thing because everyone wants a ride and everyone wants to be on this shoot. My responsibility was being the guy that fairly distributed rides for people who signed up. In the middle of the rodeo, you'll have guys who are on a horse and then they hurt themselves, but later in the day they were supposed to be on the poker table. So, I have to keep track of that and replace them in real time.Jim: Wow. Did you have anybody helping you?Andrew: I had people that would help me, but I'm the kind of guy that- Woody: Nobody is going to do it--[crosstalk]Andrew: -nobody's going to do it as good as you.Jim: [laughs][crosstalk]Jim: Struggle with delegation. [laughs]Woody: You were the CEO of everything that state workers--Jim: Well, if you do it, it's done right. [laughs] Or if it's wrong, it's your fault. And that's important.Andrew: But I can remember people ask me often about what I'm missing. I think there'll come a point in my career where I'll move out in the country, get a piece of property and have cow because there are days when you work around cattle, you just get this gunk in your nose at the end of the day, especially when we're pushing cows, got them in a catch pen, working them, and you just get all this muck in your sinuses, I miss that. I had to be in prison to really feel this sense of purpose and enjoying-- there were times I forget I was in prison. I forget I have my-- [crosstalk]Jim: Wow. It's almost like [crosstalk] you're so involved.Andrew: -sentence because I was in nature. I was working around these animals, got run [unintelligible [00:19:15] people. I think people have this idea that brahma bulls, the meanest thing that you could come across and know a mama cow that you're pulling the baby from will run your ass over. Well, I've been run over quite a few times and been kicked by cows. So, it was a great experience for me.The other thing I should say about my experience at Angola that was totally different from everywhere else I had been. Obviously, I was an outlier everywhere else I was having a life sentence. I would see people come and go. There were a handful of lifers at Wade, a handful of lifers at DCI. But when you get to Angola, everyone has life or everyone has 50, 100 years. They're not going to do that sentence. You every once in a while got a guy that somehow ended up at Angola that's going to be going home, but that's the outlier.And I got to meet so many older guys who had been there for decades. Some of the best people I ever met with in my life, I met in prison, and they were in prison for murder. I know that the general public can't get that, or they think I must be twisted to see that. But you see who a person becomes. I'm not meeting people in their worst moment. I'm meeting people years later after they've developed, they've taken responsibility for whatever brought them to prison and they've changed their lives. So, I think that had a big impact. Frankly, seeing a lot of death at Angola, going to funerals at Angola and seeing people buried and their headstone being on the penitentiary property, it's life changing.Woody: We did an episode on the Lookout Point and the call for making-- and all that stuff, that Burl really stepped up the game on.Jim: That's exactly right.Woody: [crosstalk] -we missed an episode. My mama sent me the article afterwards. Governor Edwards, when he passed, they had them make his coffin and he was buried. But then, his wife or some family member had him dug up and cremated. But so, we did Billy Cannon's. [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. We definitely talked about that. It'd be a good point to bring up Burl Cain brought two very, very important things to Angola, in my opinion. He brought religion and he brought education at a level no prison had ever seen in the country. Everybody makes mistakes, Burl became very powerful, and with that, there became maybe some problems. But probably the most well-known warden in the history of the country, I would say. Would you agree? Did you ever have any dealings with him?Andrew: Oh, certainly. My favorite story about Burl, and he would do this to a lot of people, you always knew Burl was the boss and Burl had the vision. If you were going to work for Burl, you were going to carry things out the way Burl wanted it done. Burl had a whiteboard in the ranch house where he would often hold court around lunch. If there was an assistant warden, staff member who had to see Burl, Burl had a convict he wanted to come see him, you'd get called up to the ranch house and he had a whiteboard. Burl used to draw a circle on the whiteboard and then put a dot in the middle of it. He'd hand you the marker and say, "That's where I am. I'm the dot. Show me where you are. Are you in the circle? Are you outside the circle?"Woody: Wow.Jim: [chuckles] That's pretty awesome.Andrew: And he would tell you, "Draw it. I want to see. Where are you?" If you'd put that dot inside the circle next to him, "So, well, let me know if you're with me, because if you're not with me, we'll draw your dot outside of the circle." I think that's a perfect encapsulation of who he is. He had a vision. He knew how he wanted to do it. Obviously, it's hard to stay in one place. He was at Angola over 20 years. That's unheard of. No one will ever be warden of the penitentiary--Woody: I know this off the record that numerous times, and actually tapped Jimmy Le Blanc to be head of the Department of Corrections, he turned it down. He believed in so much in what he was doing in Angola. When he was warden at DCI, when I started-- I trained at Angola, I think it was Camp F is where the--Jim: Yes.Woody: Yes, I slept in a dormitory there and everything, but my mom was raised on the [unintelligible [00:24:08]. So, we say Bloody Angola, the Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. That's more of a catch-all. Certainly, it's not a nice place to be, but it's certainly not to 19--[crosstalk]Jim: '65, '64.Woody: -when they had [crosstalk] yards and shit like that. I forget the name of certificationprogram, it's a national thing run by the government. Andrew: HOST?Woody: Yeah, that certifies prison. You got to really-- Andrew: Oh, ACA.Woody: American Correctional Accreditation, something like that. But Angola was nowhere near that when Burl got there, and he did all that too.Jim: Right. Leader of men, there's no doubt about it. Now, I believe the head of the Mississippi Department of Corrections.Andrew: Correct.Woody: Most listeners don't know the Montgomery case comes out, how did you learn about it? How did you hear about it? And what happens next?Andrew: US Supreme Court actually has made a series of decisions that affected how we sentenced juveniles. I mean, it's not that long ago the first decision where they looked at adolescent brain science was Roper, and it was new science. It's sort of what everyone who was a kid or had kids, knew kids or immature kids are impulsive. And the Roper decision, that's when they said, "You can't execute a juvenile anymore." I mean, that's just in the last couple of decades that we haven't been able to execute-- The Supreme Court said, "Stop executing juveniles."Woody: I was a police officer when that came out.Andrew: And they said, "Hey, kids are different from adults, and we have to treat them different than adults." Eventually, there was the Miller decision. And all these decisions, we're in prison, we're watching the news, we're reading the newspaper, we're keeping up with it. The guys who are going down the rabbit hole, staying in the law library are telling everyone what's happening. So, we're just watching it. The Miller decision came out in 2012, and that decision said that you can't give a juvenile a mandatory life without parole sentence. Well, if you remember in the first episode, I said when my judge sentenced me, there was only one sentence.Woody: Mandatory without.Andrew: If my judge would have had an option and gave me life anyway, the Supreme Court decision wouldn't have affected me because the Supreme Court didn't say you can't give a juvenile a life without parole sentence. It said it couldn't be mandatory. The judge has to have leeway. But Louisiana and some other Southern states--Woody: They still followed it.Andrew: We're fighting it, the retroactivity, because they said, "Okay, well, this only affects new cases. It can't affect all these old cases." I actually went back to Acadia Parish in 2013 after Miller. I was fortunate my family could afford to hire an attorney for me. The judge who was there for my trial was still on the bench.Jim: Oh, wow.Andrew: He agreed for me to come back in. He said, "Now, I have an opportunity to give you a different sentence. I'm going to sentence you to life with parole, and I'm going to let the Department of Corrections figure out what that means," because there wasn't a law in the book that said what does-- life is still life in Louisiana, whether you're a juvenile or not. The parole board wouldn't schedule a parole hearing for me, obviously, because there's nothing that says that.Woody: To set the precedent.Andrew: Yeah. We're hearing from all of our attorneys that this isn't going to affect old cases. So, in January of 2016, the US Supreme Court ruled in a case called Henry Montgomery, Baton Rouge case. A black guy, he was 17 years old, when he shot an East Baton Rouge sheriff's deputy. Not to argue that case, Henry, he shot someone who happened to be a sheriff's officer. He didn't know it was a sheriff's officer, but still, he shot a sheriff's deputy, and he was held accountable and was initially given the death penalty, ended up with a life sentence. His case made it to the Supreme Court. I remember we initially thought, "Man, that's such a bad case to make it to the Supreme Court," because everyone in prison knows you don't--Jim: When it involves a police officer--Andrew: You don't commit a crime against a police officer because you're not going to getany mercy.Woody: So the listeners know, when they submit to Supreme Court, Supreme Court has a right to turn down the hearing of the case. They don't have to hear it.Andrew: Right. So, they agreed to hear it. In January of 2016, they reviewed it favorably. Henry Montgomery, what his attorneys were arguing was that Miller's retroactive, and it affects Henry and people who've already been in prison, not just new cases. The Supreme Court agreed, and it put me at the front of the line.Jim: When he says the front, the very front.Andrew: The very front. It's not because I obviously wasn't the person who served the most time. I wasn't the person who had the most certificates. I was at the front of the line because most other guys in my position, they couldn't afford to hire attorneys, and other courts didn't want to fool with it. There weren't any local judges that were looking to start resentencing people. Everyone's like, "Oh, let's wait and see what the Supreme Court does." Well, my judge looked for the-- was happy to hear when my attorney went and said, "We were going to file for a hearing for a change in sentencing." He says, "Let's set a date."Woody: I'm sure also, I know what he told you originally, but I guarantee that the judge looked at-- that you did your time, you didn't let your time do you. You totally turned your life around, or you've been on a straight and narrow other than the one time at JESTC. [chuckles]Andrew: That's true. He put all that stuff into the record, and that obviously helped me. So, when the Montgomery decision came down, my attorney petitioned the parole board and said, "You owe him a parole hearing." At that point, the state of Louisiana had not issued-- the legislature hadn't changed any laws. So, he was arguing because of what the Supreme Court said, "Because his district court already sentenced him, you have to give him a parole hearing. You can't hold the legislature's inaction against him." The parole board agreed and actually got an opinion from the attorney general's office that said I was parole eligible.I go before the parole board in June of 2016, I'll be honest with you, even though I knew I was rehabilitated, knew if I get out, I'm going to do well, I still know I committed a horrible crime. I was in my 30s. I was 34. I'm telling myself, "I'm going to be denied," and I'm preparing my family, I'm going to be denied. This is the sort of a process and every couple of years I'll be able to reapply. And in 10, 15 years, they're going to get tired of telling me no, and I'm going to come home one day. And I'm going to tell y'all, my biggest fear, I didn't say this in the first episode. My biggest fear while I was incarcerated wasn't about someone hurting me, wasn't about being raped or being stabbed or even not getting out of prison. That wasn't my biggest fear. My biggest fear and what would keep me up at night was the fear that my parents would die while I was incarcerated.Woody: Yeah, I get it.Andrew: Because I've seen men whose parents died. Mom's the last person with you. Andwhen mom goes, everyone else goes.Jim: And they had your back the whole time you were in prison.Andrew: They didn't make excuses for me, but they showed me love. They visited me.Woody: Shoutout to your folks, man.Andrew: They answered my phone calls, and my mom and dad just sustained me. I went to prison as a 15-year-old, and even although my body matured, there was part of my-- I never went off to college. I never got that first job.Woody: The growth experience.Andrew: I was emotionally dependent on my parents' love and affirmation. So much of me furthering my education and doing good things in prison was so when my parents would come and visit me, I could say, "Guess what I'm doing?"Woody: They could be proud.Andrew: I say all that to say that whenever I had the parole hearing, I prayed, and I just prayed. "I know I'm not going to make it this time, but please, God, just let me come home while my parents are still alive so then I can be there for them as they've been for me for my whole life." Luckily, that day, I have a parole hearing. Generally, they tell you after the hearing, you've been granted or you've been denied. They threw a curveball, and they said, "We want to take this under advisement. We want to think about it." I understand I was the first juvenile lifer after Montgomery with a parole hearing. The parole board generally doesn't hear at that point, murderers going up for parole.I go back to my life in prison. I tell myself, "You're going to be denied. You're going to get a letter in the mail in 30 days that said, 'You've been denied. Apply again in two years.'" I'm back on the range crew. I'm back doing my job. I'm worrying about cattle. I'm worrying about inventories. I remember it was 10:30 on Thursday, June 9th. My supervisor is a guy named Alan Barton, June 9th, 2016, his phone rings, and he answers it, and he looks at me, and I could tell whatever that the call was about, it was about me. And so, I'm wondering, "What's this about?" Nowhere did it come into my mind this has something to do with parole. And he's like, "Okay, okay, okay." He hangs up the phone, and he looks at me, and he says, "Pack your shit." In prison, when you hear, "Pack your shit," it's usually one of a couple of things, but it could also mean you're going to the cell block.Woody: Right. It could mean you're getting swung. The other one is you're going home.Andrew: You're going home. This is how much I didn't allow myself to believe I was going home. I was prepared to go home. [crosstalk] Immediately, in that split second, "What are the things--? Do they know I brought a brick of community coffee back to the dorm to get to this old timer. What do they know? I got some extra chicken out the kitchen." And he says, "You're making parole." And I was just like, "Wait. What?" He's like, "The parole board granted you, and you're releasing now." I lived at the office of the range crew at the lake house, at the hog lot, this is prison jargon. Like, 80% of my properties out there because I go back to the dorm to sleep and then come back to work and work all day. He says, "Pack your stuff," and I was like, "Man, if this is a bad message, I don't want to pack all my stuff. So, let me go to the camp and see." He's like, "I'm not bringing you back. You're going home."So, it took me going to the camp and then giving me my release papers to sign before I believed it. They said, "Do you want to call anyone?" I said, "Yeah, I want to call my mom." So, they give me the phone, I call my mom. She answers, and I said, "Hey, do you know anything about me?" She says, "Yeah, we're coming to get you." I said, "How long have you--" My mom knew one hour before I did.Woody: Wow.Andrew: My attorney called her from the parole board to say, "Hey, the parole board just called me in to say that they're granting Andrew's parole." It was great that my mom knew for an hour before I called her. She knew she was waiting on that call. My sister had just graduated medical school. My parents were packing her up, getting ready to send her off for her residency. So, just thinking, my younger sister finished medical school, they're packing her up, and at the same time, their son's releasing from prison.Jim: What a day.Andrew: I was told at 10:30. I got up that morning thinking, "I may die here. I may get out in a few years." At 10:30, they said, "You're going home today." At 04:00, I was walking out the front gate with my family.Woody: Wow. One of the few people--Jim: For the first time outside since you were 15. Woody: Outside of the gates of Angola.Andrew: Right. Packing, getting all my stuff gathered, and all these old timers and these juvenile lifers who've been there all this time are coming up to me, "We're so happy for you, man. This is awesome." I remember thinking to myself, "Man, how much grace that they have," because if I was in their shoes, I would be saying, "Why this guy?"Jim: Yeah. People try to sabotage people getting out sometimes in prison. Andrew: "This guy's only been here 19 years. Why is he getting out?" Jim: You would almost think there'd be jealousy there.Andrew: Yeah, and I'm sure there was but guys were just showing me so much love. The last two guys I talked to before I get out were two juvenile lifers. One had been in for 40 years. One had been in for 50 years.Woody: Wow.Andrew: They say, "You're going to be the guy that helps the rest of us get out." I don't think they meant literally, but like, "You're going to get out, and you're going to show that people can get second chances. Man, you could do well." I was like, "Man, I'm sorry that it's me." They're like, "No, no, man, get the hell out of here. You're going to do well." We're driving down that road that I didn't know if I'd ever leave. My sister asks me, "Well, now what?" I had all these plans on paper, but now it's like, "Oh,-Jim: Now, it's real.Andrew: -it's real." I told myself what came to me is, "I've got to find a way to help people. I've got to find a way to help these people that I've left behind." So, through that guilt of leaving my friends behind was born Louisiana Parole Project.Woody: Wow.Jim: And what a beautiful project, and we're going to get into that. I do want to say, because I sense you had a little bit of guilt with you that you were the first, and there were these people that in your mind are more deserving because they had spent longer time and all ofthat. For me, looking from the outside, I think you had a lot of-- and I don't even know if you felt this pressure, but I would have thought you would have had a lot of pressure on you because anybody who was against that ruling is watching you to wait for you to fail. "Y'all going to see. Y'all going to see, they let these guys out and watch what happens. They're going to screw up again." Wow, were you the total opposite of that, number one. Probably far exceeded even people with the best of intentions, expectations, and that's what we want to get into. But you did. You were the first, and that was great.You also were carrying a heavy burden, just like these guys told you, you're going to be the one that they use as the example. So, I'm sure in the back of the mind, they were thinking, "Be a good example because you can screw it up for all of us." [chuckles] So, you were just that. Now, I want you to tell us about your Louisiana Parole Project and what it does and the value of that for these released convicts, inmates, people.Andrew: I come home in June of 2016, I recognize-- my dad gives me a truck. I knew I couldn't go back to Eunice, Louisiana. Everyone knew me for the worst thing I did. They either loved me or hated me but there weren't opportunities there. And I wanted to go to college. Heck, I was 34 years old, getting out of prison from this life sentence, smart guy. I've already earned these credits. Testament to the prison system, I felt getting out, like, "Man, I've earned all these credits. I have to go to college." Whereas if I wouldn't have had those opportunities, I might look and go, "Damn, I'm not ready to invest four years of my life. I got to go into the job market right away." So, I enrolled for college right away. But then, I started telling people, "Man, I want to find a way to help these guys. I realize I'm coming out and with this ruling, I'm just the first. There are going to be other people coming home. How do we create opportunities for people when they come home?"I'm going to be okay because my family is going to make sure that I have opportunities to be successful. I had built a network for myself in prison that I know, "Hey, I'm going to take advantage of this network to find a good job and to hang around good people and have volunteer opportunities." The guys coming home and I had enough common sense to know that, "Hey, the first few people who come home are going to affect it for everybody. So, we need to make sure the first guys who come home are successful so that stakeholders, namely parole board, governor, judges, keep giving people chances." This was an abstract idea and literally just starting, building it out from my experience, from the experience of the first few people that came home, what did they struggle with when they first come home. And we've built a program. We're a nonprofit organization, so I had to figure out how to build a nonprofit organization, how to set it up.Jim: Not easy.Andrew: My first job was actually someone clued me into working at Pointe Coupee Detention Center. I taught pre-release at the detention center for a short time. There's a curriculum, and it's actually this curriculum I taught in the inside at Angola, at Camp F in my spare time. So, I have a job. My first paycheck goes to chartering the organization with the Secretary of State's office and the local clerk at court's office. And then, applying to the IRS for the 501(c)(3) status. All that costs money. So, I'm just figuring out the administrative part of building the organization, asking funders for money. It's the chicken before the egg. I'd say, "Hey, this is what we're going to do." Well, funders would say, "Well, what have you done?" "Well, I haven't done anything."[laughter]Jim: "That's what we need you for."Andrew: "We need the funds." "Well, come back to us whenever you've done something." A lot of volunteer work, part time, going to college. And then finally, we had a couple of funders that took a chance on us. I mean, fast forward from 2016 to today, we operate a residential reentry program in Baton Rouge. We work with people who've been convicted all over the state that are coming home, and we work with people who've done 20 years or more, because we recognize these are guys who are more likely to listen to their peers. And it's a pure mentorship program. Same concept with AA. If you're an alcoholic who's going to AA, your sponsor is going to be another alcoholic.Woody: Somebody's who been through it.Andrew: Who's been through it and so we had the same mindset. We're going to have people who've come out of prison, who've been successful mentoring other people who come out of prison. Initially, that was an odd mindset for law enforcement, for probation and parole for DOC, because their job is usually keeping ex-cons away from each other. But today, we own and operate nine transitional houses in Baton Rouge. We own these homes outright. Seven houses for men, two houses for women. When they come home from prison, we're giving them a safe, stable place to stay. We have rules, we have expectations, but some of the things, our clients have served 20, 30, 40, 50 years in prison. So, it started out with these juvenile lifers coming home. And the legislature passed a bill in 2017 that also allowed something-- some people call it 40-Year Lifers, some people call it Disco Lifers. There's a group of about 120 lifers during the 70s that had parole eligibility before the legislature in '79 made life, life without parole. There was a bill that restored parole eligibility to some of those guys.Woody: I didn't know about that.Andrew: We helped some of them get back out. Jim: Wow.Andrew: And the governor has been signing commutations. And a big part of why he's signing commutations is because we say, "Hey, if you give this person a second chance, our program is going to help them rebuild their life." He took a couple of chances on people, and he's been signing more and more commutations. He's in the last year he's in office. Last week, he signed commutations for 12 lifers. These people are going to come through our program. To date, since 2016, we've had over 370 men and women who were once serving life or de facto life sentences have gotten out of prison. I know people hearing this go, "Wait a minute, 370 lifers?" Yeah, 370 lifers and de facto lifers, people sentenced to 50 years, 99 years, 200 years have come home. The reason you haven't heard about it is because they're not going back to prison.Jim: Period.Woody: Because they had made-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yes.Andrew: Our recidivism rate is 1%.Jim: 1%, y'all. Let that sink in.Woody: But you got to give them the other side of the scale. The average just on general recidivism rate is in the 40% range.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Which means almost one out of two that get out without Andrew's program aregoing to offend again. Jim: I'm sorry. Go ahead.Andrew: I said this to y'all before we went on air. I have a unique perspective where I did time, I'm a criminal justice practitioner, and I got my master's degree in criminology. So, one thing I learned actually getting the book education is when we hear like, "Almost one out of two people return to prison," the problem is it's the same couple of guys that go back and forth, back and forth. And they actually--[crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. Quadruples the number.Woody: Regardless, take those guys out of the equation, 1% is a stupid, crazy number in agood way.Andrew: We start working with our clients before they're released.Woody: Let's do it like this. You showed a picture of two people that you picked up yesterday, tell us what the process is going to be for them, from where you start until hopefully where it is.Andrew: Sure. So, two lifers came home yesterday. One served 41 years, one served 38 years. We started meeting with them months ago when we knew they had opportunities to come home. One was given a commutation by the governor, went through the pardon process successfully. The other guy was actually resentenced by the Orleans District Attorney because it was determined that he was overincarcerated. He was someone, after reviewing his case, they decided that he was less culpable than his co-defendants and he shouldn't have got a life sentence. So, they made a deal with him. He pled guilty to time served, came home. Anyway, we started working with him and it's just how much what our organization's reputation is. We go in, ex-cons--Woody: I was going to say, you go to Angola.Andrew: Go to Angola and the warden lets us in to go and see guys and prepare because they know we're not going in to bring in contraband. We're not trying to get anyone to escape. We're trying to get people out the right way, but we've got to go and prepare them for what to expect. To be frank, I've got to go in and determine, is this someone I want to help? Not everyone who applies to be our client, we accept. We turn down a lot of people. We look at the prison record and we also read between the lines. Having done time, someone who's done time or worked at Angola--[crosstalk]Jim: Real knows real. Andrew: Real knows real. Jim: [chuckles] As they say.Andrew: We want to make sure that it's someone who's taken responsibility for their actions and addressed the things that brought them to prison and bettered themselves and they're ready to come home. People, you're different at 25 than you were at 15. You're a different person at 35. You're a different person at 45.Jim: Amen.Andrew: A lot of my clients are 60- and 70-year-old men who are taking up unnecessaryspace at Angola.Jim: If you're judged by your worst mistake you ever made, everybody would hate everybody. Everybody, stop for a second, think about the worst mistake you've ever made, and then think about if everybody knew about that if they'd hate you or strongly dislike you. People change.Andrew: We pick our clients up at the front gate of the prison when they're released. We bring them to our program. Our clients, things we all take for granted, they've never used a cell phone, they've never used a debit card, they've never paid for gas at the pump, they've probably never opened a bank account. Who has been incarcerated for decades and still has their birth certificate and their Social Security card? These people, if they came home and didn't have the support, they'd just crumble, like, "Where do I start?" And their families, many of them have outlived their families. The ones who do have families, families love them, but they don't know where to start. So, our job is to prepare people to be successful. We're not putting people up for life and giving them a place to stay. We're training people to be self-sufficient.Woody: Like a transition.Andrew: It's a transition. We want you to learn the skills you need. I give someone their first cell phone they've ever had. [crosstalk] After a week, they're going to be like a 10-year-old with the first one. So now, we got to teach you how to put the phone down. Now, we've got to teach you what workplace etiquette is. We've got to teach you that when you went to prison, what was considered flirting is considered harassment. We've got to teach you what this institutionalization that you've had, "Hey, in society, we're more accepting of different people, different ideas. You've got to let that old thinking go." A lot of guys obviously come home with skills, and now we're--Jim: Mad skills, especially trade skills.Andrew: So, we're looking to do-- and I shouldn't just say, guys, we work with women too. Once they go through our initial program, we feel confident. Now, we're working to find them jobs. We give them transportation. We're going to transport them to their parole officer. We're going to transport them to their job. We bring them to the grocery store. We bring them to their medical appointments. Initially, "Hey, we're going to take care of all your needs. Now, we're going to teach you how to be self-sufficient." Our goal is we're turning tax burdens into taxpayers. We're not just getting people out and saying, "We're saving the state money, because that's one less person you have to pay for," we're turning these people into taxpayers. We're not just turning them into taxpayers when they're working. We're getting them volunteer opportunities. They're volunteering in the communities they live. I tell clients, "Go join a church." Some of them say, "Hey, I'm not into church." And I say, "You go find your church, find you an AA group, find you some group. Start showing up. After you're there three or four times, someone's going to recognize you and say, "Hey, you want to go to lunch? Hey, tell me about yourself.'"Woody: Integrate them into the community.Andrew: When people get in trouble, 9 times out of 10, it's because their family doesn't know what they're doing. There are no connections. What we find that's worked is we want all these tentacles into them. I'm going to tell you we're a parole officer's best friend because our parole officers have no problems with their clients because oftentimes, the guys out onparole, mama may not know where you're at, but that parole officer is keeping in contact with you, a Parole Project client. These are people who were convicted of the worst crimes, and they're the most successful group out there.And then, the mode is some of our clients who've come out been successful, we've had people start their own small business. We have homeowners, state employees, carpenters, welders, cooks. The people, you walk into Walmart and you don't realize the guy who's checking out next to you just got out of prison doing 30 years. You're in church, the person in the pew next to you is someone who came home. And that's the point. What does someone who's been in prison look like? We're training them to not only to blend in, but to give back to the community.What I would say is we've proven in Louisiana, a place where life without parole is something that is exactly what it means. And we've just accepted that, "Well, we give people life, and we can't let them out because they've done something so bad, they can't get out," or we keep them there so long, they can't adjust to society. We're proving that wrong, and we're proving that. And this isn't like a bleeding heart speech, because I'm not a bleeding heart. I don't believe-- there is a reason we have prisons, there's a reason we hold people accountable. Well, we can hold people accountable, and then we can take a look back and see, is someone worth redemption? Is someone rehabilitated? Someone worth a second chance? And it's a resounding yes. There's a way that you can support someone.One thing I hate to hear is, "He's been in so long, how can we let him out?" What I say is, "Shame on us as a society if we keep someone in prison so long, the reason we can't let them out is because we've kept them in prison so long."Jim: That's a great way of putting it. And you know what? I think your nonprofit does more than anything else, is the same thing that you get inside prison from the staff if they're doing it right, hope. The biggest reason that people reoffend, in my opinion, is they try other things, they hit a bunch of roadblocks, and it's the only thing they know. If you have a felony on your record and you go apply for a job and you have to disclose that felony, and you do, you're doing the right thing, it's hard. Look, I'm not saying they didn't earn the right to have to struggle with that, but it's hard for people to give you a second chance. It is not easy. I'm not someone that lived in that life, but I've seen a lot of people pass through my life that have had that struggle. I've seen people turn back to the only thing they know, because it's the only way they can make money, is by slinging drugs or doing whatever it was that put them in prison to begin with.Your program is really helping them adjust and teaching them that there's another way because anybody who's respected, even the worst of us, when you're respected for the right things, for being a good person, paying your taxes, all those things, you have a self-respect that you don't want to go back to that life.Woody: And then, second chance also-- Jim: It's hugely important.Woody: -what you just hit on, people come out and they can't get the jobs or people are like, "I'm not hiring a con," through second chance, through your program, somebody did take a chance. They're probably the best damn employee in the world. They're like, "Can you give me like 10 more of them?"Andrew: I was about to say two points I want to respond to as it relates to second chances, there is not an employer that we've gotten someone connected to-- a lot of times, it's a lot of work, getting this employer to take a chance, and I understand it. He's got to think, how isthe public going to feel about it? How are my other employees going to feel about it? There's not an employer who doesn't come back and say, "Hey, if you have another guy, I'd be willing to hire another guy." We have multiple employers, car dealerships in Baton Rouge, state government agencies that have multiple clients working for them.As it relates to hope-- We talked about Warden Cain, the current warden of Angola, Tim Hooper, is really a good man, and he's doing good things up there. But as it relates to hope, prisoner-on-staff violence is down at Angola. Prisoner-on-prisoner violence is down at Angola. Participation in educational and self-help programs are up. Why is that? Because people in Angola are seeing people go home. And not only go home, but they're seeing them stay home and stay successful. They know guys' success, guys communicate, and it gives people hope.Jim: So, light at the end of the tunnel.Andrew: What I tell people, even the hardest person who says, "I don't believe in any of this, lock them up. Why should I care about prison conditions?", if you don't care about the thousands of people who live in Angola, care about the employees who work there.Jim: That's right.Andrew: Because they should go into a safe environment. What I can tell you is, it's a safer place to work whenever there are people going home and there is hope in the prison. Hope is a good thing.Woody: Absolutely.Jim: This is a damn good episode. One more thing-- Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: Chills. How can people help support your program? Woody: Say the full name.Jim: We're going to link all of that too.Woody: [crosstalk] -links and everything. We're going to put it across all our stuff because I believe what you're doing is really awesome. Y'all, they are nonprofit, and you fund it through donations and stuff, right?Andrew: Yeah. Jim: In grants. Woody: Grants.Andrew: Grants and individual donations. So, our name is Louisiana Parole Project. Our website is paroleproject.org. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, @paroleproject. Check us out, you'll see-- If you're wondering what does someone look like coming out of prison, take a look at our social media. We call it the Money Shot, is the guy walking out of the front gate.Jim: [laughs] I love it.Woody: Hey, I'm going to follow--[crosstalk]Jim: The Money Shot.Woody: When we leave the studio, I'm going to go follow.Andrew: And people can donate to our organization online at paroleproject.org. Your donation, no matter how large or small, helps us buy someone coming out of prison, a pair of shoes, helps someone go to driving school, fund the cost to getting their driver's license, gets people started. We are a nonprofit organization, and all of our money goes to supporting people. It's a good investment. What I could tell you is, is it costs taxpayers thousands of dollars to keep people in prison for life. The older you get, the more expensive it costs.Jim: Doubles.Andrew: It does. It's a good return on the investment. We have been ill served by politicians who have fostered the idea that keeping people in prison forever makes us safer. We've led the country in incarceration because of life sentences, and it didn't affect crime. The people who are committing crimes today are not the guys getting out of Angola. So, there's a difference. When we hear some people are like, "Ah, I'm not into these reforms that are happening," what I can tell you is without a doubt, because I see it, I work with these guys, they're not the guys committing crime. They're the guys who are paying taxes, giving back to their community.Jim: Well, thank you for that and keep up the good work on that end. One more thing before we let you get out of here. You got a child and a wife now and we haven't even mentioned that. His wife's a doctor, y'all. How about that?Woody: Yeah.Andrew: Yeah. I'm a lucky man. God's shown me a lot of favor. The best job like I've everhad now is I'm dad to an 11-month-old daughter. Jim: Beautiful.Woody: Aw. Congratulations.Andrew: It's been a wonderful experience. Woody: Congratulations.Jim: Well, keep killing it, man. Keep doing the good work.Woody: Hey, you know what? I would like to ask you back again sometime. Jim: Please.Woody: Because this is [unintelligible [01:02:21]. This is important.Jim: Very important. Thank you.Woody: Thank you.Jim: Thank you very much. We appreciate you.Andrew: Thank you.Woody: Our favorite episode we've ever done. Episodes actually that we've ever done.Jim: Yeah, it was great. We hope y'all enjoyed this. Follow the Patreon, subscribe to us, if you'd like more information, and hopefully you would on the LPP, we're going to link all of that in the description of this podcast. Just scroll down, you'll see it there. You can click on it and help.Woody: When you hear it, if you're moved like I was, share it because we want everybody to know this story.Jim: That's important. Yes.Woody: And we've told you, it'll always be something different coming out of Angola. This isas far in the positive spectrum as we've ever been. Jim: 100%. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: Peace.Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell the story of Casey White and Vickie White who just last year led authorities on an 11 day manhunt following Casey White's escape from prison in one of the most adrenaline filled escapes in United States history.#CaseyWhite #VickieWhite #PrisonEscape #Podcast #WhenEvilEscapesCheck out past episodes on our website by clicking hereFULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And we're back with a new episode.Woody: We're back, y'all. And, hey, patrons, thank y'all so much for supporting us. And as any show does, eventually, we took, what, a two-week hiatus? Jim: Yeah, we dropped just for patrons for a couple of weeks.Woody: Right. But we've had meanwhile-- it's funny, we take the little break, and we go to number five again and we're kind of going viral on Bloody Angola and we won't take much time off, y'all, but sometimes it is what it is. That being said, we want to thank everybody and we welcome all you new listeners to this edition of Bloody Angola. What we told y'all, or I've told y'all in every episode of Bloody Angola, is you're always going to get something different. Today's case is really different, because while the story is not directly related to Angola, I can tell you it's directly related to Angola.Jim: [laughs]Woody: The case is about a guy named Casey White, who was a convict, and Vicky White, who was a correctional officer. And we're going to get into it but let me tell you this. I can tell you, I've seen it, I've arrested people inside the prison for doing it. What it boils down to is correctional officers and inmates fucking. Jim: Yeah.Woody: You wouldn't think, Jim, that that would happen, but it probably happens more than inmates doing it. I think the convicts use-- certainly some of the people locked up in prison are geniuses and they are master manipulators for whatever the crimes may have been. They find that weak person, male or female. We've done an episode on Bloody Angola about the lieutenant who was banging a convict. But it happens, male and female. So, it's a very real deal inside the prison. I told you, anytime you go behind those gates or the walls, that that normal rules don't apply. And it is what it is.Y'all, I've actually seen it. I'll tell you one case that really sticks in my head. There was a politician's daughter, and she was an attractive female, who was a correctional officer. Now, naturally, he got her the job and they gave her a cush job. She was in the canteen. She worked where they got all the snacks and shit from. She had an orderly who worked with her when-- we called him, really working her from behind, literally. Jim: [laughs] Woody: And somebody else had snitched on them. So, we set it up and waited for the opportunity and busted in. They were butt naked, and he was balls deep. She didn't get arrested because of who she was, but she got fired, and he got swung to the working cell block. Jim: Oh, very nice.Woody: But this story is super, super interesting. You know what? I told you correctional officers, some of the best people in the world, and then some of them that you work with that are worse than inmates. This story really shows how the human psyche can roll out, because you can be the best correctional officer for years and then sugar turns into shit. Jim: That's right. This is a good example of it. As Woody just told you, it's one hell of a story. The best place to start is, I want to give you guys and gals an idea of the background of these two subjects that we're going to talk about. The first one is Casey White, y'all. Now, to call this guy a stone-cold killer would really be putting it mildly. The first thing you notice when you see Casey White is his size. He's just flat out a giant of a human being. Woody: Like a freak of nature giant.Jim: Freak of nature, 6'9", weighed 330-- [crosstalk] Woody: There's not that many players in the NBA that are 6'9". Jim: There's probably not a bunch of people on Earth that are 6'9" and 330 pounds. And, y'all, this ain't fat. This is solid prison muscle. And prison muscle, as you've heard Woody talk about many times on Real Life Real Crime, is different than free people muscle. [laughs] Woody: Jim and I have been here before, and somebody came in to be a guest on the show, and I was like, "Oh, shit, that's prison muscle." Jim: Oh, yeah. You spot it right off, and that's what he had. The next thing you'll notice about this guy is his tattoos. Now, he has tons of them, but this isn't your typical barbed wire or if you're in the navy, you've got an anchor on your bicep or something. These are mostly white supremacist related tattoos. He was associated with the Alabama-based white supremacist prison gang, Southern Brotherhood. So, not a nice individual. In addition to being a freaking Jolly Green Giant. Woody: We need to cover this one day, and we will on prison gangs, different ones, maybe episode on each one. Let me tell you about the Aryan-based prison gangs. They're like the military. On your yard time, you have to work out. They work out in formation. They stay to themselves, etc. The prison muscle deal, if you don't work out and you're not swole, they'll beat your ass. If you don't do what they order you to do, they'll kill you. But at 6'9", 330 pounds, I bet you he was a shot caller.Jim: Oh, yeah. What we're trying to do here is paint y'all a picture of how intimidating this guy is before you even know even a shred of his criminal record. Now, you may wonder what's that look like. Well, get ready for this. Woody: Well, in 2006, Casey White was arrested on a domestic violence charge. But, Jim, it wasn't his wife. Domestic violence doesn't mean it's your spouse. In this case, he was arrested for beating his mama's ass. His own mother. Four years later, in 2010, he pled guilty to attacking his brother, another domestic violence, with an axe handle, and was sentenced to six years in prison.And, y'all, in December 2015, Mr. White went on another crime spree where he tracked down and tried to kill his ex-girlfriend. The rampage spanned both Alabama and Tennessee as he held victims at gunpoint, shot one woman in arm, killed a dog, and carried out a home invasion and staged multiple carjackings before he was finally captured in a dramatic police chase. Now, this spree unfolded on the morning of December 1st, 2015, when he broke into a home and stole two guns. Later that night, he turned up at his girlfriend's house armed with the stolen guns and opened fire on her and two men inside the home.Jim: Didn't even hesitate.Woody: He had it on his mind. After that, White then broke into another home and stole a man's car and another gun. Around an hour later, he shot another woman in the arm in an attempted carjacking in Tennessee before carjacking another person at gunpoint.Jim: This is all the same freaking weekend.Woody: He's just rolling. I mean, he's just straight up thug life. White was finally captured in a dramatic 100-mile-an-hour police chase that ended in a standoff back over the border in Alabama. Now, he's in a standoff. And during the standoff, he demands to speak to the sheriff and threatened to shoot himself in the head. He asked for a pack of Marlboro cigarettes and a Sun Drop soda before he surrendered. Jim: [laughs] Got to have them Marlboros. Woody: Got to get me them reds. Jim: That's crazy.Woody: Got to get that voice right. Well, he knew he was going back to prison. In 2019, White was convicted on multiple charges over the rampage, including attempted murder of his ex-girlfriend, and he got 75 years in prison. Jim: So, that's what kind of guy we're dealing with here. Woody: Real winner.Jim: I guess you could say, walks the walk and talks the talk when it comes to it. Woody: When you tat yourself up with Swastikas and shit, you're pretty much not going to get a job as a whatever, as an accountant. I mean, you're in for the thug life. He's proven it, and he has total disregard for the law and anything going on with it.Jim: Yeah, so he's right where he belongs. And while serving this 75--Woody: He's the reason they build Bloody Angolas. Jim: Yeah, that's right. While serving this sentence of 75 years, he's also awaiting a trial for the 2015 stabbing and murder of a 58-year-old mother of two named Connie Ridgeway. Now shortly after he got locked up for that 75-year stint, he provided a confession for that particular murder. Now, she was found stabbed to death in her apartment. This was in Rogersville, Alabama on the 23rd October of 2015. The case went unsolved for five years until White sent a letter to the Lauderdale County Sheriff's Office confessing to the crime. During a subsequent interview with authorities, he allegedly gave details about the crime that had not been made public which only the killer, y'all, would have known. Prosecutors say he was paid to carry out that hit. Woody: Got to make a living. Jim: Got to make a living. Look, his whole life, that's how he generated money, I'm sure. In 2020, he was charged with two counts of capital murder. Now, after confessing to the murder in which he initially pled guilty, he changes his plea to not guilty by reason of mental illness. Woody: See how that works out for him.Jim: Yeah, primarily because they were going for the death penalty if he was convicted in that case. So, there's no way at that point he's going to plead just straight up guilty. Now, if that's not enough to paint a picture of how evil this guy is, there's also the mysterious disappearance and death of his 2008 girlfriend. Casey White's then girlfriend, back in 2008, Christy Shelton, was shot in the chest by a sawed-off shotgun inside an Alabama home belonging to White's mother. Woody: The same mother he beat the shit out of. Jim: Same one he beat the shit out of. Ms. Shelton, who was 31 at the time, died at the scene. Now, White was in the home with her at the time of the shooting, but somehow, Woody, was ruled out as a suspect. Woody: Ah, look at that.Jim: That was his history. Back then, officials ruled the 31-year-old deaths as a suicide and the case was closed. So, he probably made it look like a suicide somehow. Ms. Shelton's family, of course, always doubted that version of events and it was never solved. That is the crimes, Casey White was convicted of and the ones he still faced justice for in 2022 when the incident we're about to tell you about took place. Woody: It's just a long, long storied history of being a piece of shit. Jim: His whole life. Woody: A hardcore piece of shit. Jim: Start out beating his mother and his brother. Woody: I mean, he's just the gift that keeps on giving. But again, that's why we build prisons, for murderers and pieces of shit like this. Let me tell you about the other side of this story. And that is about Ms. Vicky White. Now listen, they have the same last name, y'all, her and Casey White, but they're not related at all. They weren't married, not blood related, nothing. Just chances, I guess. White is a pretty common name. But Vicky White was a total opposite of Casey. At 56 years old, Vicky White was almost getting ready to retire from her career as a correctional officer. Rick Singleton, the sheriff in Lauderdale County, Alabama, was quoted as saying she was a model employee in all her coworkers. All the employees in the sheriff's office, the judges and all had the utmost respect for her. Now, Vicky White was a widow with no children and never had so much as a speeding ticket in her entire life. She was clean as a whistle. She is 5'5" and weighed 145 pounds. Now, we told you about him, 6'9", 330.Vicky, in 1997, she joined the Lauderdale County Sheriff's Office and she went on become the office assistant director of corrections. That's something special for a female. I mean, that's a big deal. In 2002, she and Tommy White got married. Now, that's not Casey White, y'all. That's her husband. They got married and she was six years younger than him, and they raised cattle on a farm. She later left him when his drug problems got out of hand in 2006 and she divorced him. But she was so respected and well liked. In fact, between 2015 and 2022, her peers voted her as supervisor or employee of the year four times.Jim: Wow.Woody: I mean, she was just jam up. After her divorce with her husband, Tommy, she remained friendly with him. In January 2022, he died from complications related to Parkinson's disease. She's getting ready to retire. She's 56 years old. She's put in almost her 30 years. She's risen as high as she can get in corrections, sans a warden, I guess. Then, she's liked by everybody. Jim: Yeah. Just a stand-up citizen in all--Woody: All aspects. Jim: Total opposite of the other guy. Now, I know you're wondering, you're probably saying to yourself, "What happened? How the hell did these two completely different individuals just get intertwined?" Well, in 2020, while serving down his sentence at the William E. Donaldson Correctional Facility, which is in Jefferson County, Alabama, Casey White came into contact with Vicky White. Let me tell you how they came into contact. He was at a state prison, but they would transfer him to her jail whenever he would have court appearances. He'd get transferred to the jail, he'd see Ms. White and he wanted to get him a little something-something, probably wink at her or whatever. Look, this is a big dude now. He ain't blended in nowhere. Woody: Yeah. I'm sure he started out, he floated her a little wink or something and she didn't reject it. So, that opens up his can of worms. Like, "Every time I'm going down, I'm going to try to lay a little smackdown on this girl."Jim: That's right. Woody: If can be honest with you, I'm totally confident in my sexuality, I could say this. But I think you look at a 6'9" guy that's 330 pounds, and you think everything is big on that dude. [laughter] Woody: He probably got 14-- [crosstalk] Jim: An anaconda in his pants? [laughs]  Woody: At 14, his anaconda, but he don't fold it in half for anybody. [laughter] Jim: Indeed. And I'm sure she was thinking the same thing at the time.Woody: She's 56 and [crosstalk] husband for a while. That's still cracker. Jim: So, they would see each other. Speculation now is that the flirting started, and she started calling him. She would call him at his state prison, and they just shoot the breeze. Look, this became a two-year thing.Woody: Yeah. Once I submit to you on that first phone call, it's going to be a shitty--Jim: Yeah. "What are you wearing?" That was what that question was on that first phone call. "Is it red panty night?" [laughs] [crosstalk] Woody: That may have been the second phone call. The very fact that he got it across that line of calling me-- now, I'm sure they say, "This is a collect call from an inmate at correctional center, da, da, da," she had to take the charge. Jim: That's right. They start this kind of phone thing and visiting thing, and it becomes a two-year ordeal. As a matter of fact, during the next two years, they formed a relationship and other inmates-- and look, inmates talk and inmates after the fact, after all the dust settled and this case became obvious, they came forward and said he would get extra food and special privileges from Vicky White every time he was at that jail. And they were pissed. They're not going to rat out the 6'9", 330-pound beast for sure. Now,in the months and weeks leading up to what will become his escape from prison, aided by Vicky White, and of course, unbeknownst to officials, Vicky was preparing. Vicky announced plans to retire on April 29th, 2022, which incidentally, y'all, was the same day of the escape. She sold her home on April 18th of 2022 for $95,550. Now, that's important because it was well below the market value of $235,000.Woody: Yeah. She wanted that quick money. She had plan.Jim: She wanted that quick money. Yeah. First person looked at it, "What if I charge you 95,000?" They were like, "Okay." She ended up selling it for a third of its value. She then moved in with her mother, Pat Davis, for about five weeks after selling that home. She started taking money out of the bank. She had a number of different banks. She was taking cash out of everywhere. So, she was preparing. She even went shopping for men's clothing at a local department store, Woody Overton. Then, she goes to the adult store.Woody: The men's clothing, she had to look in the big and tall section. Jim: Oh, yeah. You had to get probably some special stuff there. She goes to the adult store even and buys lingerie and sex toys. Woody: We had to put on the kinky.Jim: Yeah. Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah. This is all going on the weeks before the actual escape, and she even purchased, which would become an important point, a 2007 Ford Edge that was orange under a false name. Woody: Right. Now, we set it up for you. You know who he is, what he's about. The two faces that she put on, the professional face and now she's got-- well, they had a common face. She's lining it all, and he's telling her to do all this. But I think $95,000, we can get by, have some good times on that. On April 28th, 2022, Vicky White stayed at a Quality Inn hotel in Florence, Alabama. It was this day that she positioned the orange Ford Edge at a parking lot about 10 minutes from the detention center.On the day of the escape, at 09:30 AM, Vicky White told another deputy that she planned to take Casey White to a mental health evaluation in court and then would seek medical attention because she wasn't feeling well. While the jail policy states that inmates are always accompanied by two deputies, because she's who she was, Vicky White, and everyone loved and trusted her, no one even second guessed her decision. That's really using your power and your authority and your reputation.Vicky White then took Casey White, who's wearing an orange jumpsuit and shackles, and put him in a patrol car, and she drove away. As they left the prison, Florence City Council member, Bill Griffin, was outside shooting a commercial for his council district, and he saw Vicky drive past him with Casey White in the backseat. Well, not unusual. Griffin knew White and waved at her, and she waved back to him twice before driving off. Just a day at the office. She drove the patrol car from the detention center to a nearby shopping center parking lot and left the vehicle there. They then got into the orange Ford Edge that had been left there the night earlier and drove away. The patrol car was found abandoned in the parking lot around 11:00 AM by someone on a lunch break. Imagine that, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: When we say patrol cars, even every jail or prison, especially sheriff's offices, they have jail units. It looks just like a patrol car, like a uniform deputy patrolling in. But they have jail units that they can transport one inmate or time or go do whatever jail functions they need to do. That's what she did in this case. Officers at the jail became concerned and tried to call her but her phone kept going straight to voicemail. Then, they realized that Casey White had not been returned to the jail. The Ford Edge was found locked and abandoned in the middle of the road in Williamson County, Tennessee, about a two-hour drive north of Lauderdale County. Unaware of its origin, a tow truck driver, Robert Keynes, transported the vehicle to a local tow lot. At about 03:30 PM, officials realized Vicky and Casey White were missing. Now y'all remember when she bought the Ford Edge, she did it under assumed name so it's not tied to her. Once they realized that Vicky and Casey were missing, the Lauderdale County sheriff's office put out an alert on their Facebook page just before 6 o'clock in the evening. Jim: Wow. You can imagine the panic, y'all. This guy was a stone-cold killer. He just escaped your jail. I mean he is the worst of the worst. There's probably going to be violence at some point. Now in addition, you're assuming Vicky is a victim. Nobody is thinking at this time Vicky helped this guy escape. They're all thinking he must have overpowered or got out of his handcuffs or something. So, you call the cavalry. And that's just what they did. On May 1st, the US Marshals offer up to a $10,000 reward for information leading to the capture of Casey White. Vicky White was described as missing and endangered.Woody: In case you don't know, anytime there's an escaped inmate or convict, the US Marshals, they have a specialized division just in tracking down escapees. Everybody else would have been looking for them also, the sheriff's office and all the state police. But when you call in the US marshals, this division, all they do is eat escapees. Jim: Yeah. As Woody said, they start investigating and they figured out, and they figured out pretty fast. As a matter of fact, by the next day, they figure out that Vicky White was somehow involved in aiding him in this escape. On May 2nd, a warrant is issued for Vicky White, charging her with permitting and facilitating escape in the first degree. So, something happened. Woody: I'm sure they figured out that he actually didn't have doctor's appointments. She made all that shit up. Jim: Absolutely. And some other things. Actually, she and Casey White were caught on camera as well, which in reality, look, that was going to happen sooner or later. People don't realize it, but all of us are on camera. An average, y'all, you, whoever's listening right now, all of you, you're on camera an average of 70 times per day, whether it's going in and out of stores, pumping gas, sitting at red lights, whatever. Woody: Considering the Chinese spy balloons. Jim: Yeah, that's right. [chuckles] The particular video of the two that kind of tied it in for them shows Vicky White driving the patrol car straight from the detention center to the parking lot where it was found. She made no stops in between and that was an indication to police that there was some planning involved. On May 3rd, the Marshal service releases images of the orange Ford Edge that the fugitives were last seen driving, what they picked up in the parking lot. They left the patrol car, they got in the orange Ford Edge and the marshals added a $5,000 reward for information leading to the capture of Vicky White. So it's up to 15,000 now. The subject should be considered armed and dangerous and may be armed with an AR-15 rifle or a shotgun, the marshal's office also reported.Woody: And that would have been out of the marshal unit, y'all, the jail unit, they keep them in the trunk. Jim: It was at this point and still not discovered by police that Casey and Vicky ditch the Ford Edge and they pay $6,000 cash for a Ford F150. It is also at this time that they purchase a Cadillac, and they continue their escape with one following the other into Indiana.Woody: Interesting.Jim: Yeah. Look, this was actually well planned. Just to set the scene for, y'all, there's panic now. This guy is as bad as they get. He's on the loose. Now, you've got a former employee on the loose with him, because I'm sure she got fired quick. Casey and Vicky White drive that car into a car wash in Evansville, Indiana.Woody: That's a long ways from Alabama. Jim: Yeah, that's right. Their last location before that that was known was Tennessee, a place called Williamson County, which was 175 miles north or south of Evansville.Woody: And then, to Indiana is a long ways from there.Jim: Yeah. Period. Woody: He's smart. They're putting in miles. The more miles in, the less news coverage and all that. Jim: There you go. So, they pull into that car wash. They leave the F150 sitting in the car wash stall, and they get into the Cadillac, and they drove away from the car wash. Now, at this point, law enforcements still assume they're in that orange Ford Edge. Woody: Right. Well, what they did not know was that tow truck driver had towed the Ford Edge two days earlier after it was left in the middle of a roadway. When he saw a news report on May 5th looking for that vehicle, he recognized it, and he called the cops and told him what tow yard it was in, and he brought them to it. The US Marshals found the Ford Edge in the tow lot and confirmed it was the one used by Vicky and Casey White.On May 8th, a few days later, another big break in the manhunt took place when investigators were notified about the Ford F150 abandoned at the car wash and its possible connection to the fugitives after the curious car wash attendant viewed surveillance video to try to find out who left the truck in his car wash and then recognized the fugitives. Jim:  Naturally. Woody: And they're pretty easy to recognize. Remember, it's anaconda and shorty. [chuckles] Woody: So, on May 9th, US Marshals release images dated May 3rd from the Evansville car wash surveillance camera of a man believed to be Casey White in the Ford F150. Y'all, they're also established in what direction they're headed, basically and that they're swapping vehicles. And the car wash surveillance video showed the suspects leaving the F150 and getting into that Cadillac. Jim: So now, they know what they're driving, at least at that point. Woody: Right. At this point, the Evansville police, where the two were last seen, had the Cadillac burned into their brain and they were looking everywhere for it. An Evansville police officer spotted the Cadillac vehicle at a Motel 41 and alerted other investigators. They began the surveillance of the motel and observed Vicky and Casey White exiting the motel and getting into the Cadillac. Police began to pursue the Cadillac and the fugitives fled north on the US Highway 41 in Evansville in the Cadillac. In the pursuit, Casey White and Vicky White drove onto a grassy field and parking lot near an industrial area of the city. A law enforcement officer rammed a vehicle into the car, flipping it onto its side in a ditch. It's like movie shit. You can't make this up, right? Jim: Yeah. And this was the Evansville, Indiana police. Woody: That's called a PIT maneuver. And maybe they didn't do it correctly. They flipped a Cadillac, dude. Officers reached the duo in the car, and they took Casey White into custody and found Vicky White with a gunshot wound to the head, and what investigators believed the time to be a self-inflicted or suicide y'all. She died in the hospital that night from her injuries. The Indiana coroner's office ruled the death as a suicide. During the arrest, Casey White referred to Vicky White as his wife and said he did not shoot her. They were not believed to have been married, talking about Vicky. Jim: Yeah, he just called them. They weren't legally-- Woody: Hell, he might have got an ordained minister through the thing or whatever, he might have married them in the hotel room. It's funny, it's not the Motel 6. It was the Motel 41. Jim: Motel 41. Only the best for that guy. Woody: Investigators found four handguns, a semiautomatic rifle, three magazines. That's not GQ magazines. People commonly refer to them as clips, magazines with bullets. They found wigs and about $29,000 cash in the vehicle. Casey White spoke for a lengthy period with investigators and said that they had planned to have a shootout with the police. The fugitives had been staying at the Motel 41 in an attempt to lay low for a while and had paid for a 14-day stay after paying a homeless man $100 plus the room cost to book the room for them. So, they had somebody else book it for them. Jim: Yeah. A homeless man at that. Woody: Now let me tell you this, anytime I had a BOLO for somebody that might be in my area, guess where I'm going to check first? The Motel 41 or whatever the local one is. In Albany, it was the Albany or whatever. I mean, you're going to cruise those places first. What they didn't know was cops had the Cadillac. If they didn't have a Cadillac, they'd have got away with it. If they didn't have the Cadillac on video like you're talking about, we're all on video so many times. Jim: That's right. That was a big key. There were a lot of questions to be answered, especially in regard to Vicky's death. We're going to play the 911 call for you now. One thing we didn't tell you in what we just told you was that right before the Cadillac got rammed, Vicky placed a 911 call. However, the operator picks up and she doesn't respond to the operating. They pick up, they say, "911, what is your emergency?" Normally, someone would say, "I'm in a chase with the cops," or something. "We don't want them shooting at us." She doesn't respond to that. It sounds like someone that would have dialed the phone in their lap and just left it sitting there so that the operator could hear what was going on. This is my impression, but I'm going to kind of let you gather your own impression. Right now, we're going to play that audio for you. This is Vicky White calling 911.Vicky: Hi. Operator: Evansville 911. Vicky: Oh, my Good. Operator: 911.Vicky: Please stop, the airbags are going to go off and kill us. Operator: Hello?Vicky: Casey. Oh, God. Airbags are going off. Let's get out and run. We should've stayed at the fucking hotel. [screams] [police sirens going off] [background noise] Operator: Hello?[police sirens going off][background noise] Jim: You hear things in that audio like, "Wait," "Stop," "Airbags are going to go off and kill us." Soon, you hear a loud noise. Now, the first of at least four loud noises to happen in about 15 seconds. It's unclear in each instance what the noise represents and it's kind of unclear from the audio when the car was rammed, when it rolled over and when the gun was fired. You do hear a woman, which is Vicky, saying, "God, airbags are going to go off. Let's get out and run." And she even mentions a hotel. The second noise you hear, you hear kind of shriek. And at least two more noises follow, followed by another shriek. You can hear sirens in the background. But this is the question I want y'all to ask yourselves, and that I certainly asked was if you're about to kill yourself, you're not worried about airbags going off, you're certainly not worried about getting out and running. So, I kind of call bullshit on that.Woody: And you wouldn't have dialed 911. Jim: And you wouldn't have dialed-- yeah, I call bullshit. Woody: I personally think what you're thinking is at some point in her pursuit, she realized, "Holy shit, he's going to kill me. I want 911 to at least be able to listen to it." Basically, what you just played is Vicky, a voice from the grave saying-- naturally, she knew she was culpable in all this, and at some point, she realizes, "Holy shit, he's going to kill me." Jim: Yeah.Woody: Jim, you may be 100% correct, but while Casey has not been charged with pulling the trigger against Vicky, he is being charged with felony murder in connection to the death of Vicky White and he's been indicted. The indictment says Casey White is responsible for Vicky White's death because it happened during Casey White's escape. Well, I get that, and that's a whole lot easier to prove than the fact that he killed her in a car. But I'm saying that he killed her in the car. Y'all want to read you a news release from the Lauderdale County Alabama's District Attorney. This news release is titled "Casey Cole White indicted for the felony murder and the death of Vicky White, July 12, 2022." On July 6, 2022, a capias warrant was issued for the rest of Casey Cole White for the offense of felony murder regarding the death of Vicky White. The warrant was issued based on the grand jury indictment. White, who is in the custody of the Alabama Department of Corrections serving a 75-year sentence due to the convictions from Limestone County, was served with the warrant yesterday at Donaldson Prison. He is also charged with capital murder for the 2015 murder Connie Ridgeway. The felony murder indictment alleges that during the course of an in furtherance of committing escape in the first degree, White caused the death of Vicky White, who died from a gunshot to the head. As are all criminal defendants, White is presumed innocent of the charge. No further information will be released by this office at this time. Chris Connolly, Lauderdale County District Attorney." Jim: That's pretty interesting because even though they're still saying that she killed herself, they're saying because of his involvement with her, that was almost the cause of it.Woody: It's the same thing. I go to rob a bank and you're driving a car and I kill somebody inside the bank, you're getting the murder charge also. In this case, because of the pursuit and whatever, she wouldn't have been in that situation.Jim: Right. Very interesting. One thing I will throw in here is a little caveat and a fun fact for y'all. The Motel 41 that you brought up, get this. Six months after that murder, tt was completely booked up. The same room that they stayed in for all that time. Woody: Yeah. Jim: Yes, people love it. "Yeah, I want Casey White's room." They could actually say that they slept in Casey White's room at the Motel 41. Woody: That's crazy. Jim: So, Motel 41 was loving it. [laughs] Woody: They're probably still loving it. Jim: Probably still loving it.Woody: They're going to love it after this episode. Jim: Yeah. Go check out the Motel 41. Maybe they'll sponsor Bloody Angola. [laughs] Woody: Yeah. Right. They can give us a free room when [crosstalk] Casey White room. We do a TikTok. Jim: The Casey White honeymoon suite. Woody: Very unique story. Jim: It really is.Woody: It happens every day. Think about all the ones, especially Angola, where these people, 6000 of them, certainly a certain percentage have to be masterminds and master manipulators. I've dealt with a lot of them. Like David Constance. He's not as dumb as he looks. He looks like a little troll, but the dude's a genius. Not formally educated, but he's a genius on playing people. It happens. Correctional officers are begging inmates, correctional officers are the largest reason that inmates get contraband, whether it's cell phones or dope or whatever. You can get more dope in prison than you can on the street. And it's probably cleaner, less fentanyl. But the sex part, everybody is here because two people screwed. Everybody on this earth, they just happen to find the vulnerable ones. Jim: That's right. Woody: And do what they do. Jim: You may wonder what's next for Casey White. I mean, he lived. He's back in jail. Well, in August of this year, 2023, he'll finally go on trial for the 2015 rampage that we told y'all about.Woody: Yeah, he should get death penalty.Jim: In that particular instance, he's charged with killing two people. As Woody discussed earlier in this podcast, he will most assuredly spend the rest of his life, if not get the death penalty for that.Woody: Some people just don't-- a rabid dog need to be put down because if he gets out-- he's proven, if he ever gets out, he's going to kill and maim and do whatever. This dude's definitely living for the moment. They found $26,000 out of the $95,000 something she sold her home for. He's living for the moment in the end. He planned on shooting out with cops anyway. He's like, "I'm going to be the--" [crosstalk] Jim: He told them that in interviews after.Woody: "I was going to shoot it out with y'all. I was going to kill as many of y'all as I can." Basically, he wanted to get killed too. Jim: That's right. Woody: He wanted to be that bad ass motherfucker, right? Jim: Yeah. The thing is, Woody, he's even said many times that had the vehicle not been flipped, he would have had that shootout. He just couldn't get out. He was pinned in.Woody: So, that 6'9", 330-pound anaconda. [crosstalk] Jim: Monster, man.Woody: Big dude. I don't know if I've ever met anybody-- Well, Shaq, I think it's a little taller than that, but that's a monster of a dude. Think about this, y'all, for every extreme case like this where they help him escape and all that, think about all the correction officers that are getting laid every day by convicts that never get found out. Jim: Never get found out. And you mentioned Shaq. Look, we're going to deviate just a second because I got a good Shaq story for y'all that I'm going to tell y'all, you may like. For those of you that may not realize, we record out of Baton Ridge, Louisiana area. And, of course, Shaquille O'Neal, Shaq played for LSU and back when he was in his college ball days, he was very well known around here. And much like Casey White, and it's worth pointing out those sized people stand out no matter where they're at. So, the first thing that I wondered with Casey White was he never would have been able to ever, ever, ever go in public anywhere for the rest of his life anyway because he stands out like a sore thumb. Just look for the guy that's 6ft 9in tall with tattoos. Woody: With swastikas.Jim: Yeah, I mean, it would have been obvious in that situation. But back to my Shaq story. I was in the mall and at the time, I was dating a girl and she was like 5ft tall, literally. I was probably 17 at the time. He might have been a sophomore at LSU. We're walking through a mall in Baton Rouge, and there he is. He's like looking at watches like in the breezeway there. I was coming out of Dillard's with my girlfriend. I asked the lady for a paper bag and a pen. So, she gives it to me. I told my girlfriend, I said, "Go get Shaq's autograph." She walks up to him and gets it but, y'all, Shaq is like 7'2". Standing next to my girlfriend, he's signing this thing, this is before cell phone cameras, sadly, but I saw it in person, it was like a two-year-old standing next to a full-grown adult. That was the size difference between those two.Woody: I got a couple I'll throw on you real quick. The same time, Shaq and Chris Jackson and all of them [crosstalk] I was at LSU. Reggie's, which we talked about on the last episode of Real Life Real Crime Daily, it's where Madison Brooks got overserved, that used to be called the Tiger. I lived in the first apartment right behind the Tiger. I'd go to the Tiger every night. Shaq, he was in the bar, and I went up, stood beside him, he was like a mountain of a man. Jim: Yeah. And Woody's tall. Woody: Yeah. I'm 6'2". But fast forward, I don't think anybody knows this. Shaquille O'Neal was a commissioned officer with the Killian Police Department. Jim: I forgot.Woody: Now I am going to tell you why. Not only did he have a house down there, but he is a big diver, scuba diver. He bought all the scuba diving equipment and the boat and everything for Killian Police Department. They're on the water down there on the [unintelligible 00:46:52]. He was instrumental in funding the dive rescue team and recovery team. Jim: Really? Woody: Killian Police Department. Yeah.Jim: I didn't know that.Woody: And he's [crosstalk] with them. Super, super cool guy, down to the earth. He's getting up there in age like me. But it is what it is. One of the best. Now, how we got on that from Bloody Angola, I don't know. Jim: [laughs] Well, we're talking about height and how these people stand out and that was just a few little for me and Woody, but just an enormous human. Woody: You're right. They absolutely would stand out like that. But this dude took it-- I'm talking about Casey White, took it to the whole next level, on getting tatted up with racist tats. Who's going to come up to him and say shit? Shaq might have said something to him but anyway.Jim: He is, Woody, the prime example that you can point to as someone who never, ever needs to be out of prison, ever. Woody: Yeah. Absolutely. Jim: Just a horrible human.Woody: They build prisons for that dude. Jim: They build prisons for them. Woody: Patreon members, thank you so much. Jim: Couldn't do it without them. Woody: I couldn't do it without you. Y'all, if you want to be a Patreon member, there's a ton of episodes locked up and get commercial-free early releases. Jim: And let me say this, Woody. I had a few people reach out, and I just want to explain this. They were asking with the regular episodes weren't dropping them every week. I just want to explain, and we appreciate all of you. Look, I love it when people say, "Where's the next episode?' I love that. I want everyone to understand, when you're a patron member, you don't miss any weeks. We're going to give you something, whether it's just Woody, whether it's just me, whether it's both of us, you're going to get extra and you're going to get bonus stuff. Sadly, this stuff is not free. And it is expensive for us to produce this podcast. It requires a lot of time, a lot of research. And so, with the regular feed that is just absolutely free, we unfortunately have to limit what we can put out there. If we were to a point where Nike would sponsor us or something, look, we're all over it. But if your Patreon member is $10 a month for the starting tier, and you get episodes every week.Woody: Even the higher tiers, I came in yesterday to record, you had a stack of packages that were going out. Jim: The Warden Team members. Woody: Warden Team members. I'll be looking for those. [crosstalk] Jim: I've got some good little swag this time. Woody: We give you a lot of benefits in that, and that's just a way to help us keep going and we give back, whether it's in the form of the commercial-free episodes or the episodes that nobody else is getting, the ones that are locked up. Look, some of those, I consider to be my favorite, the ones that are locked up haven't been released to the public. Jim: That's right. We've got probably about 10 of those now. If you're not a patron member yet, look, you can go to Patreon right now. It's $10 a month for that opening tier, and you got 10 episodes in there you ain't never heard.Woody: And you get commercial-free early releases. Basically, you get episodes if we have weeks of not dropping them.Jim: That's right. Don't forget about the other things we do. Woody, Real Life Real Crime Daily, Real Life Real Crime.Woody: Real Life Real Crime Daily. I would have let the cat out of the bag here first. Real Life Real Crime Daily has been such a success, about to take it from three days a week to four. Jim: Boom. Woody: Starting-- that's next week.Jim: Big deal, y'all. That means you're going to get either a Real Life Real Crime original or a Daily every day of the week. Woody: Five days a week. And Bloody Angola. It's a lot of recording, it's a lot of time. But you know what? The numbers don't lie. Y'all are the best fans in the world, and we appreciate you. Jim: That's right. We love doing it. Woody: And we're blessed. Jim: Yeah, don't forget about the app. Bloody Angola. You can get episodes straight through the app. Woody: That's the Real Life Real Crime community app. Jim: The Real Life Real Crime community app. So, you can download that on Apple Podcast. You can also do it on whatever Google's-- for Android. Woody: Yeah. Jim: Google Play Store. Woody: Yeah, just go you go to the App Store and download it. Jim: Yeah. So, that makes it easy, y'all, you can get it there. Woody: Respond to everybody in one place. We just have so much other social media, it's almost impossible now. Jim: That's right. Woody: It's a good problem to have, Jim. Jim: Yeah. [crosstalk] Woody: Y'all are a great problem to have. We love you. Jim: We love you very much. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim and Woody: Peace. Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola, Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell you some stories you will have to hear to believe regarding inmate of Louisiana State Penitentiary who were sentenced to DEATH ROW getting exonerated after DNA evidence or other substantiating evidence cleared them of their crime and saved them from getting the needle.#DeathSentence #DNA #InnocenceProject #BloodyAngola #PodcastFULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Jim: And we're going back to our roots, Woody Overton.Woody: Right back inside the wire. Jim: Back inside the wire. Just when you thought we got out. Just coming back here. Woody: Yep. [crosstalk] They made me come back in. Jim: That's right. Look, we talk a lot on this show about the advancement, especially DNA, something you've worked with in the past many times. Woody: Yeah. This is a huge testament to DNA. When I started, it was really coming in its own. Now it's so much more advanced. I remember putting rushes on murder cases, and it taken six months to get the results back. Jim: That's crazy. Even back, we talked about Sean Vincent Gillis, and that was really probably one of the first times they were ever able to really rush something to the point where it really helped because you had to get that serial killer off the street. Woody: Derrick Todd Lee too. Still, even the rush back then took a long time. Not like it is now. Jim: Right. Woody: You know what? I'm totally for it. And let me do this real quick. I want to give a shout out to all our patrons. We love and appreciate each and every one of y'all. We love all you listeners, and bloody shooting to the top of the charts. It's because y'all are listening, liking and sharing. Please continue to do so. And we love y'all very much. Back to the DNA, it's just come leaps and bounds that continue to change every day. We always tell you Bloody Angola is going to be different, and this is different. You would think, oh, hard ass like me, lock everybody up, I don't believe in that. I believe if you're innocent you're innocent. Jim: If you're guilty, lock them up.Woody: If you're guilty, you- [crosstalk] Jim: Don't wait [crosstalk] Woody: [crosstalk] -you'll pay hella jail. Jim: [laughs] Hella jail, that's right. We did want to preface this episode with some of these guys were exonerated from DNA. Some of them, it was other reasons. And we're going to get into that. The intriguing thing about today's episode is many of these guys that we're going to tell you about were actually serving in death row. They've been sentenced to death. Woody: Today, we're going to be talking about people or convicts who were exonerated and released from Bloody Angola.Jim: Yes. We want to kind of start this off. I'm just going to tell you about the Innocence Project. The Innocence Project was founded in 1992 by Barry Scheck, y'all, familiar with him through OJ. It was basically formed to assist incarcerated individuals who could be proven innocent, primarily through DNA testing. Although sometimes they find so many holes in a case, they'll pick up a case where there's so many problems that they take that case on and look for exonerations in those cases. The average prison sentence before they'll take on a case is 14 years before their exoneration or release. And so, it's a process, even with those guys, but we're going to them to it. Woody: They don't just take anybody, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: One of the ones I can tell you about if-- ready to get started?Jim: I'm ready. Woody: Is John Thompson. John Thompson was from Orleans Parish. I'll just read you some of the facts of the case, some of the highlights, and what ultimately ended up happening. Shortly after midnight on December 6th, 1984, Raymond Liuzza was shot several times in the course of an armed robbery just around the corner from his New Orleans, Louisiana apartment. When the cops arrived, they found Liuzza laying on the ground, but he was still conscious. He told them he was robbed and shot by an African American male and then took him to hospital and he died. On December 8th, responded to tip, the police arrested two men in connection with the crime. John Thompson and Kevin Freeman. Photos of the two men were published in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, and soon afterwards, police received a call from a family that had been carjacked several months earlier, claiming that Thompson looked like the person who had robbed them. Thompson was charged with the murder. Meanwhile, Freeman agreed to testify against Thompson in the murder trial, and in return, prosecutors charged him only with being an accessory to the murder. He was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison. We're talking about Freeman, y'all. The world-famous New Orleans district attorney, Harry Connick, Sr,, not Junior, that's his son, the singer and actor, decided to try Thompson for the carjacking case first, knowing that a conviction could be used against him in the murder trial. Based primarily on the eyewitness testimony of the three carjacking victims, all of whom were minors, Thompson was convicted on April 4, 1985, and sentenced to 49 years in prison. That is for the carjacking. Y'all, always told you that eyewitness testimony is the worst testimony there is, but doesn't mean it's not true. At his murder trial, held shortly thereafter, the prosecution demonstrated that Thompson had at one time been in possession of both the murder weapon and a ring taken from Liuzza's finger. Thompson decided not to testify in his own defense because if he did, his felony carjacking charge would have been admissible to the jury. As a result, he was unable to tell the jury that Freeman had sold him the murder weapon and the ring. Freeman, the main witness for the prosecution, claimed that he and Thompson had robbed Liuzza together and that Thompson had shot him. This testimony was contradicted by the statements of eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen only one man running from the scene of the crime. Richard Perkins, who had originally called in the tip implicating Thompson and Freeman, also testified for the prosecution, claiming that he had heard Thompson make incriminating remarks. Thompson was found guilty and sentenced to death on May 8th, 1985. Fast forward a whole bunch of years, y'all, and events took a dramatic turn in April 1999, 30 days before scheduled execution, an investigator discovered that there was a blood stain from the robber on the clothing of one of the carjacking victims and that this evidence had never been disclosed to the defense. It's Brady, y'all. If they had it, they got to give it up. The prosecutor had ordered testing to determine the blood type of the stain, and in fact, they had rushed the test. But when the blood type was determined-- I guess this was before DNA. Blood type was determined and was different from Thompson's. They concealed it. Defense attorneys then obtained an affidavit Michael Rielhmann, a former district attorney, who said that five years earlier, in 1994, Gerry Deegan, one of Thompson's prosecutors, admitted on his deathbed that the blood evidence was intentionally suppressed and that he left a report about it on the desk of James Williams, the lead prosecutor. Williams denied ever seeing the report. Defense attorneys also learned that Perkins, the witness who testified that Thompson had admitted the murder, had received $15,000 from the Liuzza family as a reward. When this evidence was presented to the trial judge, he granted a stay of execution and dismissed Thompson's carjacking conviction, but he denied Thompson's motion for a new trial on the Liuzza murder. In 2001, however, he reduced Thompson's death sentence to life in prison without parole. Jim: Wow. Woody: Pretty crazy, right? Jim: Very crazy. Woody: In July of 2002, the Louisiana Fourth Circuit Court of Appeal overturned Thompson's murder conviction and remanded the case for retrial, ruling that the false robbery conviction obtained by deliberate government misconduct had deprived Thompson of his constitutional right to testify on his own behalf at the murder trial. Y'all, I'm not against that. I mean, give him a new trial, if it was messed up. At the second trial, Thompson was able to explain that he purchased the murder weapon from Freeman, and the defense called several new witnesses who claimed to have seen only one man fleeing the scene of the murder. They said that the man did not look like Thompson, but did resemble Freeman who, in the meantime, had been killed in a shootout with a security guard. On May 8, 2003, a jury acquitted Thompson after deliberating for 35 minutes, and he was released from prison the same day. Y'all, 35 minutes is for conviction? That's outstanding. But for exoneration, I mean, that's unbelievable. It normally takes hours--[crosstalk]  Jim: They were pretty convinced. Woody: Yeah, they want to make sure. In 2008, Thompson won a $14 million civil suit against the District Attorney's Office. That judgment was reversed by the US Supreme Court in March 2011 on the grounds that the misconduct in the case was not the result of a deliberate policy or systematic indifference by the New Orleans DA's Office. He got $330,000 in state compensation. But you know what? That's a long time to be on death row, and you didn't do it. Jim: He's a good example of someone that it wasn't necessarily DNA evidence that exonerated him, but it was the facts of the case. Woody: I have heard this case before, and actually, I think it's pretty well documented-Jim: Thank you.Woody: -but what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. But you know what the sad thing is? In 2017, Thompson died of a heart attack at age 55. Jim: Yeah, man. And you nailed it when you're talking about those bloodstains. Back when he was convicted, it was '85. There was no DNA. Woody: I think it was like '92 when the first time it was used successfully. Even then, most prosecutors thought it was junk science. So, it had to be used over and over again successfully and tested and tested and tested and it grew to what it is today. Jim: That's right. Let me tell you about another case out of death row in Angola that was actually-- Woody: That place you don't want to go.Jim: No, you don't want to go there. But was actually reversed over DNA, and that is the case of Ryan Matthews. So, Matthews was 16 years old, y'all, at the time he was sentenced-- or arrested rather, and was 17 when he was sentenced to death for shooting of Tommy Vanhoose, who was a convenience store owner in Bridge City, Louisiana. You familiar with Bridge City? Woody: Yeah. That's where the juvenile prison used to be. Jim: There you go. So, in April of 1997, a man wearing a ski mask entered the store and demanded money. When Vanhoose refused, the perpetrator shot him four times and fled, taking off his mask and diving into the passenger seat of a window of an awaiting car. Several eyewitnesses viewed the perpetrator's flight. One woman was in her car and watched the perpetrator run from the store, fire shots into her direction, and leap in the car. So, these guys were hightailing it. They done shot somebody four times. When she was later showed a photographic array, which is like a six pack, y'all, she tentatively identified Matthews as the assailant. By the time of the trial, she was sure that Matthews was the gunman. Two other witnesses in the same car watched as the perpetrator shed his mask, gloves, and shirt as he fled. The driver claimed to have seen the perpetrator's face in his rearview mirror while he was being shot at and trying to block the escape. The witness and his passenger were brought to a show-up hours later. The driver identified Matthews. His passenger was unable to make an identification.As per our previous case, identifications not very reliable now.Ryan Matthews and Travis Hayes, both 17 at the time, were stopped several hours after the crime because the car they were riding in resembled the description of the getaway car. They were arrested and Hayes was then questioned for over six hours. His initial statements to investigators, Hayes claimed that he and Matthews were not in the area where the crime occurred. Hayes eventually confessed that he was the driver of the getaway car. He stated that Matthews went into the store, shots went off and Matthews ran out and got into the car. Both boys were described as borderline intellectually disabled. In 1999, based mainly on identifications, Matthews was convicted of murder and sentenced to death.Woody: There you go. Jim: Hayes was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison. Matthews had maintained his innocence since the arrest. The defense presented evidence that forensic testing of the mask excluded both Matthews and Hayes. A defense expert also testified the car the two boys were driving, the reason they were stopped, could not have been a getaway car because the passenger side window that Matthews allegedly jumped through was inoperable and could not be rolled down. How do you get around that? I don't know, but they did. Other witnesses to the crime described the shooter as being much shorter than Matthews as well, which that's not necessarily that reliable. Height is hard to determine. Woody: You can put four people in the room and four people may get the different height and weight or whatever on. If it's a correct identification, basically you can bring them back two weeks later and they can still pick out the facial features.Jim: That's right. So, y'all ready to hear how this person got exonerated? Well, DNA testing in another murder case proved to be the keys to proving Matthews' innocence, another murder occurring shortly after Vanhoose's death in the same area. A local resident named Rondell Love was arrested. He pled guilty, and Love bragged to other inmates that he also killed Vanhoose. And that happens, y'all, you'd be surprised. Woody: Street cred. Jim: This got back to Matthews' attorneys, I'm sure, through Matthews, and they began to investigate Love. DNA test results from the second murder were compared to the results from the Matthews' conviction, indicating that Love had been wearing the mask that was left behind in the Vanhoose's murder. Testing on the mask, gloves and shirt had already excluded Matthews and Hayes, but they became conclusive after Love's profile was included. Woody: There you go. Jim: So somehow, even though they were excluded from all that DNA in the first trial, there was no one to necessarily pin it on. So, it got pinned on them. Well, you can't get around it when someone else's profile shows up. Over a year after this information was discovered, he was granted a new trial. He wasn't released. He was just granted a new trial. But he did eventually get released. The new trial, he was found not guilty and became the 14th death row inmate in the United States proven innocent by post-conviction DNA testing. Woody: That's crazy.Jim: After two more years of legal battles, you'd think he'd get out right away?Woody: They got to make sure. Jim: Yeah. Travis Hayes was released in December 2006 and exonerated in January of 2007. You may think that someone in this position, they must have got a ton of money. I mean, you sentenced to death, for Christ's sake. He received $252,000 in state compensation and another $133,000 from the federal courts. To tell you how resilient this cat is, in 2019, Matthews graduated from Texas University with his bachelor's degree. Woody: Cool. Jim: I get chills from that because, man, look--Woody: They were going to kill him.Jim: They were going to kill him. Woody: I get it, not to get into death penalty arguments, whatever, but I'm telling you this I'm glad John Thompson got off death row, and I'm glad he got off a death row, but I promise you, there's some monsters up there deserve to be there.Jim: Oh, there's no doubt about it.Woody: Don't deserve [crosstalk] to breathe. Jim: Well, it's like you always say, just make sure you get it right. That's the important thing.Woody: Yeah, that's it. If you're going to do it, do it right. Especially when you're talking about taking somebody's life. That's why they have the appeals process the last 20 plus years before they kill them. Let's talk about Glenn Ford. Glenn Ford from up in Caddo, that's where Hugo Holland-- Jim: That's right. Caddo--[crosstalk]  Woody: He was another one, y'all, sentenced to death. He was convicted in 1984. But let me tell you about it. On November 5th, 1983, a 56-year-old Isadore Rozeman, a jeweler and watchmaker, was found shot to death in his shop in Shreveport, Louisiana. His pockets were pulled, and items were missing from the store. One of the first people to be questioned was 34-year-old Glenn Ford, an affable man who did yard work for Rozeman. Ford denied being involved in the crime, though he admitted he had been near the store at some point earlier in the day and witnesses told police they saw him near the store. In February 1984, items from Rozeman's store turned up in a pawnshop and a handwriting analyst said that Ford had signed the pawn slips. Marvella Brown told police that her boyfriend, Jake Robinson, Jake's brother, Henry, and Ford were at her house on the day of the crime and left together after Ford asked "if they were going." Brown said Ford was carrying a brown paper bag. When the men returned later that day, Ford was carrying a different bag and had a gun in his waistband. Jake Robinson also was carrying a gun. Brown said Jake showed her a bag containing watches and rings. That is suspicious.Ford, along with Jake and Henry Robinson and a fourth man, George Starks, were charged with capital murder and conspiracy to commit armed robbery in February 1984. November 1984, Ford went to trial. And Ford was represented by two appointed defense attorneys, neither of whom had ever handled a criminal trial, and one of whom had never handled a criminal case of any sort. That's kind of bad. Jim: Yeah. That's not the attorneys I want to represent--Woody: Right. When you're on trial for your life. Jim: Oh, my God. Woody: If you're in Livingston Parish, you want Jasper Brock handling your business. [crosstalk]  Jim: Yeah. This is a death penalty trial. Woody: If you're anywhere else over on that side of Louisiana, you want Thomas Davenport out of Alexandria to handle it, because that's what they do. These guys had never even handled a case like this. Jim: It's crazy. Woody: Anyway, Brown fell apart on the witness stand and said on cross-examination that detectives had fabricated her responses and she had lied in her testimony. She said she had been shot in the head earlier in her life and the bullet was never removed causing difficulty with thinking and hearing. Jim: Makes sense.Woody: Several witnesses testified that they saw Ford near the victim's store on the day of the shooting, but no one testified that they saw the crime. A gunshot residue expert testified for the prosecution that after Ford had voluntarily come in for questioning, he recovered gunshot residue on Ford's hands. A fingerprint analyst said he lifted a single fingerprint from a paper bag found at the scene. He said that the print contained a “whorl” type pattern and that Ford had such a pattern, while the Robinson Brothers did not. Dr. George McCormick, Caddo Parish coroner, testified that he had analyzed the scene of the crime, including the position of Rozeman's body and a duffel bag found next to the body with a bullet hole in it. McCormick said he concluded that the victim was shot by someone who held the gun in his left hand. Ford is left-handed and the Robinsons are right-handed. Not looking good for Ford.Jim: No, not at all. Woody: McCormick also said that Rozeman had been dead for as long as two hours by the time the body was discovered, a time when witnesses said they saw Ford near the store. Ford testified on his own behalf, which most of them don't, but he testified and denied his involvement in the crime. He admitted selling items to the pawn shop, but said he'd got them from the Robinson brothers.On December 5th, 1984, the jury convicted Ford of capital murder and conspiracy to commit armed robbery. Following the jury's recommendation, Ford was sentenced to death on February 26th, 1985. After Ford was convicted and sentenced, the prosecution dismissed the charges against the Robinson Brothers and Starks. Jim: Let me just say this, okay, the inexperience of the lawyers that you mentioned is glaring when they allowed him to testify in his own defense in a death penalty case. Holy crap.Woody: I don't know when they changed the law, but I know Jasper Brock in Livingston Parish-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah. Jasper Brock would say, "He ain't talking." [chuckles] Woody: And I know Thomas Davenport, they're certified in death penalty cases. You have to actually get certified to defend somebody in death penalty cases now.Jim: Yeah. Probably, this case caused it.Woody: Probably one of them I mean, they should've known this shit was going to get done the way--[crosstalk] Jim: That's crazy. Woody: Still, I believe everybody has the right to a fair trial. Ford goes to death row. His appeals were unsuccessful until 2000 when the Louisiana Supreme Court ordered a hearing on post-conviction petition for a new trial filed by the Capital Post Conviction Project of Louisiana. At the hearing in 2004, a defense expert testified that McCormick's attempt to reconstruct the crime had no connection to known facts and were speculation at best, and I agree with that, they're talking about the coroner. You can't tell somebody's left-handed from a bullet hole and a duffel bag. Anyway, another defense expert said that the gunshot residue evidence was meaningless because it was gathered more than a day after the crime and that Ford could have easily picked up the residue merely by being in a police station where such residue is extremely common.Another defense expert said that the prosecution's fingerprint expert misidentified the fingerprint on the paper bag, and it could have been left by the Robinson Brothers. All very, very true. Ford's lawyers at the trial testified that they were very inexperienced in criminal cases. Jim: Even the lawyers. Woody: [crosstalk] -Jasper and Thomas Davenport. And had no training in capital defense. If I was Ford, I'd be raising hell. I'm like, "You got me two guys that are wet behind the ears. Give me a pro."Jim: Crazy, man. Woody: Jasper Brock or Thomas Davenport. They're even saying that he deserves--Jim: Yeah. They go on the stand and say, "Yeah, we pretty--" [crosstalk] Woody: One of the lawyers who specialized in oil and gas law had never tried a case to a jury, either civil or criminal. That's like my brothers. One's a tax lawyer and one's a maritime lawyer. They've never been inside a courtroom. The extent of his prior criminal work was handling two guilty pleas. That's easy enough. The other lawyer, who was out of law school less than two years and was working at an insurance firm handling personal injury cases. Both said they were unaware they could seek court funding for defense experts, shocker, and didn't hire any because they couldn't afford to pay out of their own pockets. Both were unaware of how to subpoena witnesses from out of state. So, Ford's family members, who lived in California, did not testify for Ford at the guilt or punishment phase of the trial. The defense presented numerous police reports that had never been disclosed to the defense.The report showed that Shreveport Police had received two tips from informants implicating only Jake and Henry Robinson in the robbery and murder. Other police reports showed that some detectives had falsely testified at Ford's trial about statements Ford made during his interrogation. Testimony that the prosecution should have realized was false, the defense claimed. Moreover, other police reports that were withheld from the defense contained conflicting statements by Marvella Brown and by the witnesses who said that they saw Ford near the store at the time of the crime. Reports could have been used to impeach the witness testimony at trial. Jim: Wow. Woody: But still, the post-conviction motion was denied. In 2012, the Caddo Parish District Attorney's Office began reinvesting the case, and in 2013, disclosed that an informant told authorities that Jake Robinson had admitted shooting Rozeman.Jim: Oh, wow.Woody: So, the honorable and right thing to do, in March 2014, the prosecution filed a motion to vacate Ford's conviction and death sentence in light of the newly discovered evidence from the informant. On March 11th, 2014, a judge vacated Ford's convictions, and the prosecution dismissed their charges, and Ford was then released. Jim: How about that? Woody: Even after all that, they'd fallen so hard in the second trial, etc. They came forward-- I think, you know what? I don't know if Hugo Holland was still the prosecutor up there at the end. I'll have to look it up. Maybe I'll ask him. He just messaged me last night. But that's an honorable thing to do. But in March 2015, a Caddo Parish district judge denied Ford's request for state compensation. Judge ruled that Ford knew the robbery was going to happen, did not try to stop it, that he attempted to destroy evidence by selling items taken robbery, and that he tried to find buyers for the murder weapon. Unfortunately, in June of 2015, Ford died of lung cancer. Jim: Yeah, that's a good kind of segue for a second, Woody, just to talk about, look, not all the guys we're going to tell you about today are Citizens of the Year. Some of them definitely committed some crimes or may have withheld some evidence, like in this case. But that's a long jump from being sentenced to death for a murder you didn't commit. Woody: Look, we have our legal process for a reason. A lot of my cases are bad cases where the witnesses are like really shady people or they're criminals themselves. Well, guess what? A lot of these crimes don't happen with a bunch of choir boys. You know what I mean? You're not running with choir boys when you're going to murder somebody and steal the jury. Jim: You're going to put them to death--Woody: But having two inexperienced attorneys and all the other stuff and the guy saying about-- whatever, that's not enough to kill somebody.Jim: That's right. We're going to give you a two for one right here. And you're not going to believe this. Woody: Let me tell you real quick, I know I keep talking about [unintelligible 00:31:23]. I don't know if this is-- we'll have to get him on. This part, he's a part of this Innocence Project, but I don't think it's the same one. Barry Scheck is another one. He got a guy off a death row. Jim: Wow. He'd be great to sit down and talk to.Woody: He got a guy off a death row. He told me about the case, and I was like, "Holy shit." But I think it was out of Missouri. He's in all federal courts and everywhere else, Thomas Davenport, but he believes everybody deserves a criminal defense. And I agree with that. If you're a cop and you got it right, you got them right. Don't sentence them to death, don't send them away for life on some bullshit. Jim: That's right. We're going to tell you about Michael Graham and Albert Burrell. Now, both of these gentlemen were sentenced to death back in 1986.Woody: I was 16 years old. Jim: That was a long time ago. Long time ago. On the night of August 31, 1986, 65-year-old William Delton Frost and his 60-year-old invalid wife, Callie, were fatally shot in their two-room home in Downsville, Louisiana, which is almost like a plantation area of Louisiana, very rural. The front door had been smashed in and police believed the motive was robbery because Frost didn't trust banks and was believed to keep cash in a suitcase in his home. A lot of older people, especially in those times, they didn't put money in the bank. They put money everywhere but the bank. The shots appeared to have been fired through a window and their bodies were discovered a couple of days later.Now, six weeks after the murders, in October of 1986, Janet Burrell told police that she had met with her ex-husband on the night of the crime and that he had $2,700 in $100 bills and blood on his boots. That don't look good. She said he admitted firing the shots and she saw Frost's wallet on the front seat of his car. Wow. That's dead to rights. So, Burrell was arrested within the hour. Not long after, Kenneth St. Clair, another witness, told police that he had come to Louisiana with Michael Graham to find construction work. St. Clair told police that on the night of the crime, Graham and Burrell left the trailer where Graham was living near St. Clair about 8:30 PM returned, Graham had blood on him, St. Clair said. Now, you've got another person seeing that blood. At the time, Graham was in the Union Parish Jail on forgery charges for stealing a checkbook from a woman who hired him in St. Clair to do some work and then cashing about $300 worth of checks. Woody: Like you said, everybody in these stories aren't angels. Jim: Yeah. On October of 1986, Graham and Burrell were each indicted on two counts of murder. Two days later, Graham's cellmate, Olan Brantly, told authorities that Graham had admitted he and Burrell committed the crime [crosstalk] [chuckles] that's it. And that Burrell had fired the fatal shot. So, Graham goes on trial in 1987 in the Union Parish Courthouse. The state's key witnesses were Janet Burrell, who we told you about, and Brantly, we also told you about. So, they got him dead to rights although police reports said that Frost's wallet was recovered in his home. A deputy testified that he believed Burrell had returned to the Frost home and put the wallet back because he suspected his wife had seen it the night they met. Woody: That makes a lot of sense, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: Why wouldn't you just throw it the fuck out-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, that's a stretch and a half right there.Woody: If you go back to the murder scene to put the wallet back, you got to think, "My wife might have seen it." Jim: [chuckles] Yeah. You're dumping it in the ditch or something. You're not putting it back. Another witness, 14-year-old Amy Opiel, who had spent the night of the crime with the St. Clair Family testified that she saw Graham Burrell sitting on the couch of a trailer with a suitcase and stacks of money. So, Graham was convicted on March 22nd, 1987, and sentenced to death. Burrell went on trial in August of '87, and he was also convicted and sentenced to death on pretty much the same evidence as Graham. Five months after Burrell was convicted, Janet Burrell, who by then was remarried to Burrell's brother James, I told you this was a good one, recanted her testimony, Woody Overton. She said she lied because she wanted to get custody of their child, which had been awarded to Albert Burrell prior to the murders. That's called motive to lie. So, the Louisiana Supreme Court, they grant--Woody: That's cold hearted.Jim: Yeah, that's cold.Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: That's as cold as you can get.Woody: How shitty of a mom does she have to be for the dad to get custody in the state of Louisiana? That's a rare deal. Jim: Well, somewhere along the line, her conscience weighed on her and she admitted she lied. The Louisiana Supreme Court granted Albert Burrell a hearing. A hearing. But at the hearing, Janet Burrell changed her testimony back, she's figuring it out, "Uh-oh. I might get in trouble for this," to her original story. The motion for a new trial was denied. Eventually, the conviction and death sentence got upheld by the Louisiana State Supreme Court. Meanwhile, Graham, don't forget about him, his case was also sent back for a hearing in motion for a new trial because of all this going on. His lawyers, they continued to get extension after extension, and they began to cover new evidence. By 1995, Janet Burrell shows up again. She says, "I'm going to recant my testimony again."Woody: She's unreliable now. Jim: Yeah. The crazy thing was, the execution date was in August of '96, she recants it in 1995. The lawyers, closer it gets to that execution date, they're 24 hours a day trying to get you a stay. 17 days away from his death, Burrell's lawyer obtains a stay. In 1998, Amy Opiel shows up again and recants her testimony, claiming she was pressured to lie and that it was St. Clair she saw with blood on his clothes and counting money. It wasn't Burrell. Okay, so Graham, he finally gets a hearing in 2000 where lawyers present all these recanted statements, as well as evidence that prosecutors failed to turn over, exculpatory evidence and impeachment evidence, including that Brantly had cut a deal with prosecutors on a pending charge, and then he was taking medication to control his mood swings. So, Brantly had a little bit of an anger problem, probably. On March 4th of 2000, Graham was granted a new trial after the Third Judicial District judge, Cynthia Woodard, ruled that prosecutors have misled the jury and failed to turn over exculpatory evidence. Woody, what is exculpatory evidence? Woody: Anything that could possibly make the jury find them not guilty.Jim: Yeah. On December 28th of 2000, they dismissed charges against Graham, and he was released from prison. This is a man that was 17 days from getting the needle. Woody: From executing.Jim: Yes. On January 2nd, you may wonder, "What about Burrell?" January 2nd of 2001, charges against Burrell were dismissed and he was released. Now, in 2016, a state appeals court upheld a lower court ruling denying Graham and Burrell compensation from the state of Louisiana. Burrell and Graham filed a federal lawsuit, but a jury ruled against them.Woody: They never solved the crime now. That's a cold case.Jim: Cold case. And here's the interesting thing. You may wonder why they're denying this money. Woody: It's hard. It's almost impossible to get a nickel for being wrongfully convicted.Jim: Exactly. Especially when you don't have DNA evidence to back it up, because basically that was so many inaccurate statements, but it didn't necessarily mean you didn't do it. It just means the people that said you did it were lying.Woody: A lot of times, if they have find gross negligence, they have to prove that DA actually did what they said that you did or whatever. Jim: That's it. Woody: Really, people don't really care about people that are exonerated, basically in paying--Jim: Those are two for one right there for you. Woody: A lot of states have a set amount. If you get exonerated, it's just whatever, which is crazy. There's no amount of money worth being on death row. In Angola, much less on death row. Jim: Yeah, the guy that was the singer that we did the episode. Woody: Yeah, Archie. Jim: How can you give that guy enough money? Woody: You can't. Jim: And he was exonerated on DNA evidence. He did not do it. Woody: You cannot give him enough.Jim: You can't give him enough. So, why are you putting a ceiling on it? Because every situation is different. Someone like that, you can't give them enough, but Goddang, you need to give them millions. Woody: They should never have to work or do anything.Jim: Period. Woody: Y'all, we will tell you another one, and this one is a rape and a murder. It's the case of Damon Thibodeaux, which is a good, strong Cajun name. And another Louisiana man that was sentenced to death row at Bloody Angola. On July 19th, 1996, at around 05:15 PM, 14-year-old Crystal Champagne left her apartment in Marrero, Louisiana, to walk to a nearby supermarket. When she didn't return home as expected, her mother went looking for her. At around 6:45 PM, her father and 21-year-old stepcousin, Damon Thibodeaux, also went out to look for her, as did several neighbors. The search continued until the following afternoon, when friends of the family heard that a girl who looked like Crystal had been seen walking on the levee. Y'all, if you're not from South Louisiana, levees are manmade walls that hold back the rivers or the bayous or whatever. Said Crystal been seen walking on the levee in previous evening. Not long after, Champagne's body was found near the levee. She was partially naked and had been strangled with a wire.Before the girl's body was found, JPSO investigators began interviewing people who had been with Champagne before she disappeared. An officer was interviewing Thibodeaux, who had been at the Champagne's home when Crystal left for the store. When he was informed that her body had been found, a homicide detective then took over the questioning. Thibodeaux initially said he knew nothing about the murder. He agreed to a polygraph test, which police said indicated deception regarding the girl's death. Uh-oh. Jim: And you being a former polygrapher--Woody: I'm still a polygrapher, actually-- it's just so hard. Basically, at that point, the polygraph is an interrogation tool. It's hard to clear somebody who's accused of murder if you're not good as fuck like me.Jim: [laughs] Woody: No, seriously. You got to set the questions, the questions that they lied to, their response has to be stronger than, "Did you rape and murder this girl?" Well, fuck you, you're in the hot seat. You're looking at a death penalty. It's hard to do. So, they failed him, whoever it was, I don't know who it was. They failed him on the polygraph, which, let me tell you, the polygraph is a long process, but it's basically made to break people down if they're guilty. And it's five or six hours. But I always said a good homicide interrogation doesn't even begin until after five or six hours. That's when you really start to get in that ass. Eventually, after nine hours of questioning, Thibodeaux said that he had raped and murdered Crystal. He was arrested and charged with both crimes. After he was allowed to eat and rest, Thibodeaux quickly recanted his confession, but was ignored. At Thibodeaux's 1997 trial, the prosecution built its case around his confession to the rape and murder. Dr. Fraser MacKenzie of the JPSO Coroner's Office, who performed autopsy on Crystal, testified the girl had been strangled to death and had injuries to her right eye and forehead consistent with getting hit by a bat or a rock. He noted bruises on the girl's buttocks, which he said indicated a struggle. He estimated Crystal had been dead about 24 hours before she was found. Separately, Dr. Lamar Lee, a professor of entomology at Louisiana State University, testified about the insect samples taken from Crystal's body. He said flies will lay eggs on a carcass within a couple of hours after death but will not lay eggs after dark. He said that the eggs were laid before nightfall--Jim: That's true?Woody: Yes. Jim: [crosstalk] as hell.Woody: Came out of the body farm originally out of Tennessee, but I didn't if they used maggots and the generation of flies, and they could tell you how long a body's been down like almost within 15 minutes. Jim: Damn.Woody: On July 19th, 1996, and calculated the age of the fly larvae or the maggots at between 24 and 28 hours old. They eat until they turn and fly, die and have more babies in cycle. There was no physical evidence linking Thibodeaux to the crimes, and though Crystal was found undressed, they found no semen on her body and no other physical evidence that she had been raped. A police officer testified that the semen could have been eaten by maggots. I guess.A week after the crime, detectives questioned two women they found walking on the levee. Both said they saw a man pacing and acting nervously on the evening of the murder. Both women picked a photo of Thibodeaux from a photographic lineup, and both identified him at the trial. Thibodeaux's attorney argued that detectives coerced the confession and suggested facts of the crime to him during their interrogation. On October 3rd, 1997, a jury convicted Thibodeaux of first-degree murder and rape. He was sentenced to death.Jim: Oh, my God.Woody: It's another one of our boys going up to death row.Jim: Death row. Woody: So, fast forward ten more years, in 2007, the JPSO district attorney's office agreed to reinvestigate the case with the Innocence Project and other lawyers who volunteered to work on the case. Now, DNA testing as well as other forensic testing was performed, and investigators interviewed numerous witnesses. The investigation revealed that the women who identified Thibodeaux as the man they had seen pacing near the crime scene had seen Thibodeaux's photo in the news media before police showed them the photo line-up. Moreover, the date of the sighting turned out to be the date after the body was found, when Thibodeaux was already locked up.Jim: That could be a problem. Woody: Right. Well, you know what, you got to give props to JPSO DA's office for even trying to reopen and look at this, because most of them are like, "Fuck you. I [crosstalk] conviction."Jim: Yeah, you did it. Woody: And he's on the death row. But extensive DNA testing on items recovered from the scene of the crime failed to detect any trace of biological material connecting Thibodeaux to the murder. Tests also showed that despite Thibodeaux's confession to rape, Crystal had not been sexually assaulted. And DNA testing on the cord used to strangle Crystal identified a male DNA profile that did not belong to Thibodeaux.Jim: Uh-oh.Woody: Well, doesn't totally excuse him. It could have been anything. Somebody else could have held the cord, and Thibodeaux could have been wearing gloves, we don't know. But the reinvestigation established firmly that Thibodeaux's confession was false. He claimed to have raped Champagne when in fact, no rape occurred. He said he strangled her with a gray speaker wire he took from his car, when in fact she was strangled with a red cord that had been tied to a tree near the crime scene. The prosecution consults an expert in false confessions who concluded that the confession was the result of police pressure, exhaustion, psychological vulnerability, and fear of the death penalty.Jim: Wow. Woody: Yeah. I mean, it can happen, y'all. I hope every day that I didn't get the juice from somebody on the wrong level, and I don't think I did. Anyway, on September 29th, 2012, he was released from death row. Thibodeaux later filed a federal civil rights lawsuit that was put on hold in January 2017. Like most of our guys, he died in August of 2021.Jim: Wow. Woody: But you know what? I know false confessions do happen. It's a real deal.Jim: Yeah. You'll confess to anything if you're tired enough.Woody: You had your ass [unintelligible 00:49:06].Jim: Yeah. Woody: [laughs] -eight, nine hours not eating, I mean, you're going to get the needle, da, da, da. It might have been, "Help me help you. You tell us what happened, we're going to tell that you cooperated." But the fact that he confesses and then they give him some food and he's like, [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. All right, we're going to give, y'all, one more today. We're going to tell you about a guy that definitely did not do it, was exonerated by DNA evidence, and that is Mr. Rickey Johnson. I saved this one for last today because he was in prison a long time for a rape he didn't commit. Matter of fact, he was in prison 25 years. Woody: That would suck. Jim: Yeah. One day in prison for something you didn't do, it sucks. All right, imagine 25 years. Let me tell you about the crime. In the early morning hours of July 12th, 1982, a 22-year-old woman awoke in her Northwest Louisiana home to find a man holding a gun to her head.Woody: Wow. Jim: The man raped the woman twice, stayed at her house for four hours. He told her his name was Marcus Johnson, and he mentioned several details. He claimed they were about his life. He claimed to be looking for an ex-girlfriend of his from Many, Louisiana. He said he was on probation. He was from Leesville, Louisiana. He even said he had relatives in the town of Natchitoches and Monroe. The weird thing is, he raped this chick twice and then he starts telling her his life story. It's almost like he felt like, "Now, we have a connection." Woody: Yeah, I got this special nut dumping connection.Jim: Yeah. What do you think the victim did? Woody: Pillow talk. Jim: She reports the rape the next morning, and at which point she told police her attacker was an African American man. He was between 5'6" and 5'8", and he weighed about 140 pounds. He had facial hair and a scarf tied around his head. A detective from the Sabine Parish Sheriff's Department contacted the Leesville Sheriff's Department to ask if they had a man named Marcus Johnson on file. There was no record of Marcus Johnson, but Leesville officers did tell detectives about Rickey Johnson. They said, "Well, we got another Johnson here. His name is Rickey. He's African American," and he was on probation for a traffic violation, a misdemeanor. Rickey matched some of the details that the lady provided of the perpetrator. He was from Leesville, he did have a child with a woman in Many, and he had relatives in Natchitoches and Monroe. So, he becomes a suspect. Nothing wrong with that. Police showed the victim a six pack, but it was actually only three pictures in this one. So, we're going to call it a three pack. Woody: Three pack. Jim: Yeah. It had Johnson's photo, which was at the center. Woody: I don't know how you get away with that.Jim: That picture was eight years old, and it was in the center. That's important. Mentally, you go to the center picture first. The victim told police that she had ample time to see the perpetrator's face and she identified Johnson as a perpetrator, even though he had a prominent gold tooth, which was never part of her description of the attacker. If a guy rapes you or a girl rapes you and they have a gold tooth, you're probably going to mention they had a gold tooth. Woody: You mentioned facial hair and everything else, and the gold tooth would stand out. Jim: Two days later, what do you think they do? They go arrest Rickey Johnson and they don't even investigate any other suspects at this time. They think they got their man. Johnson asserts his innocence. He says, "I didn't do any of this crap." Six days later, they conduct an in-person lineup with five individuals. Again, Johnson, they put in the center. And again, the victim identifies him as the assailant. The lineup was not presented at Johnson's trial because it was ruled inadmissible since Johnson did not have an attorney present at the lineup. I mean, it happens. Doesn't mean he didn't do it. Tests at the Shreveport Crime Lab determined that evidence collected from the victim at the hospital included sperm and serological testing that showed Johnson and 35% of the African American population could have been the contributor. So, that's basically no evidence. Too many people. Woody: Too many people are-- [crosstalk] African American. Jim: 35% of the entire population. Johnson was charged with aggravated sexual assault and tried before a jury in Sabine Parish, Louisiana. The victim identified him at trial saying she was positive. Woody: Game over.Jim: Positive that was him, and there was no question in her mind. She said the apartment was dark until about 15 minutes before he left. Prosecutors presented the victim's photo ID of Johnson and the serological evidence that his blood type matched the blood type of the perpetrator as determined--Woody: Back then, they didn't have DNA. They could give you blood types, basically. Jim: That's it. So, long story short, he gets convicted by the jury and he's sentenced to life without parole. Woody: Bloody Angola.Jim: Bloody Angola, baby, that's where you're going. So, Johnson contacts the Innocence Project at the suggestion of a guy named Calvin Willis, who was also a fellow inmate at Louisiana State Penitentiary. Willis was exonerated in 2003 after the Innocence Project secured DNA testing that proved his innocence. He basically called his boy and said, "If you really didn't do this, I got some people you need to talk to." Now, in late 2007, that DNA testing was performed on the sperm from the perpetrator of the crime. Remember, we said they had sperm. And the results proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Johnson could not have been the attacker.Woody: Wow. Jim: This is the first DNA exoneration using the new technology with DNA at this time called Mini-STR, which allows labs to accurately test degraded or extremely small samples. First time. [crosstalk] In January 2008, they do what anybody would do, they took that DNA profile and now they have a database in 2008.Woody: CODIS.Jim: Uh-oh. Woody: They got somebody else.Jim: They got a hit, Woody Overton. And John McNeal, who was already in prison serving a life sentence for rape committed in 1983 in the same apartment complex incidentally as the crime for which Johnson was convicted.Woody: How the hell do you not investigate that?Jim: It's crazy, ain't it? He's already in prison for that rape committed in the same complex. And so basically, they offer their apologies. After 25 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit, Rickey Johnson was released and exonerated in 2008 after 25 years in prison. The state of Louisiana later awarded him $245,000 in compensation. That ain't even close to what he needed. Woody: Did Johnson go beat that other guy's ass? [crosstalk] Jim: [chuckles] That's a good question. I couldn't find the answer to that. I'm sure he wanted to. Woody: [crosstalk] -find, you could. Jim: He would've got some inmate justice. Woody: Yeah. "Bitch, you knew I've been here all this time for this," and you know they all know what they're down for. Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: You get your David Constance been in there lying, saying, "My wife put me up, but not on rape charge."Jim: No. Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: In the same apartment complex.Woody: No doubt. That is crazy. Jim: It's freaking nuts. You would think that guy's already serving another life sentence. Why not just come clean and say, "I raped that girl"? Yeah, that's exactly right. Woody: Even convicts don't like rapists. Jim: That's right. Woody: Especially kid rapers and all that. Jim: That's right. So, long story short, he got $245,000 from the state of Louisiana. A federal wrongful conviction lawsuit was settled confidentially in 2011. So, he did get some money federally. Doesn't say how much. [crosstalk] Look, we hope y'all enjoyed these. Woody: We got to do more of these. Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: These cases you find, criminal mind is always fascinating to me, but this shit is--Jim: Love it. Woody: Hey, we're all about the Gerald Bordelon getting executed for raping and killing Courtney LeBlanc. We're all about--[crosstalk] Almost every one of these, except for Rickey Johnson was on death row. Jim: Yeah, something. There's been actually, for those of you out there that are playing trivia games, there's been 11 people released from Angola alone from death row based off of either DNA evidence or strong evidence to force an exoneration. Woody: I get that why people are against it. They say, "Oh, you kill one wrong, it's too many, shut it down." You haven't sat across the table or looked at the dead bodies and shit that I've looked at and looked in the face of evil. But hey, I'm a champion, and would go on-- As you know Jim, after my law enforcement career, I went on and defended people that were innocent, that I believe they were innocent. So, it is what it is. We're not totally one sided, but hell or jail or freedom. Jim: That's it. Woody: It's another great episode. Jim: Yeah. We loved it. Thank you, patrons, couldn't do it without you. Woody: Yes. Jim: If you're not a patron member, go join Patreon. We may do some of these just for patron members. Woody: Patrons get commercial-free, early release episodes and locked up episodes, which we probably have more locked up for Bloody Angola than I have locked up for Real Life Real Crime, so a bunch of them. All different kinds of stories. So, y'all go check it out. You can go to patreon.com and type in "Bloody Angola."Jim: Yep. /bloodyangolapodcast will pull you right to it. We appreciate it. We love each and every one of you. And until next time-Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman, your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim and Woody: Peace. [Bloody Angola theme]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell the story of legendary Warden Burl Cain. Burl Cain was the longest serving Warden in the history of Louisiana State Penitentiary and his vision and reforms changed this historic prison forever. This docu-series is the most anticipated and sought after we have ever done on Bloody Angola Podcast and it starts now!#BloodyAngolaPodcast #BurlCain #Becomingthewarden #Louisianastatepenitentiary #PrisonWarden #Podcasts #Dixoncorrectionalinstitute #DCI #MDOCOur Sponsors for this episode have a great deal for you!GET 16 FREE MEALS PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOWBECOMING THE WARDEN: THE LEGACY AND LEGEND THAT IS BURL CAIN PART 1Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Jim: And we're back, Woody Overton. Woody: Back in the saddle. Jim: Back in effect. Woody: Back in effect. Jim: And we're bringing y'all a hell of a story today. Highly requested.Woody: Yes. A legend.Jim: Legend. Someone you have some experience with. Woody: I do. I have a lot of years of experience with him. Solid dude. They can say whatever they want to. Everybody's going to have their haters or whatever. And certainly, he marches to the beat of a different drummer, but he's a visionary and has affected so many lives. Jim: Boy, he sure has. And I'll tell you, as far as research, I've probably enjoyed researching this man more than just about anyone I've researched.Woody: I've read his book years ago when it came out. Of course, I have the family history at Angola and all that, and of course, my personal history with him. Just super, super intelligent, super unique.Jim: Yeah, very. I think that's a great word to describe him. And of course, if you're hanging by a thread right now trying to figure out who we're talking about, it is the legendary warden of Angola, Burl Cain. So, we're going to start off and we're just going to take you through a journey of his life.Woody: Yeah. And I think it's so important, this research that you put together, a lot of it I didn't know, especially about the early years. And I don't know how they haven't made a movie about him yet, honestly. Jim: It's got to be coming at some point. Woody: Y'all, we've done a couple of series before, but not real long ones or anything. But it's going to be several parts to this. But you got to stay tuned because every one of them is going to kick you. Jim: Yeah. So, to start off, he was born in Pitkin, Louisiana, and I was not familiar with Pitkin. Woody: Small town in Vernon Parish. Jim: Vernon Parish. And for those of you that are kind of wondering where Vernon Parish is, that's on the Texas line. It's in the center of the state all the way to the westernmost.Woody: If you're familiar with Toledo Bend, the largest lake and kind of splits Louisiana. Texas too, but fantastic for fishing, all that. It's real close to that. Kind of a piney woods area, but really, really rural. Shit, there's not even any major highways to get over there. From off the Interstate 49, which runs north and south, splits the state. Shit, it's probably hour and a half, two hours from there. Jim: Yeah. And he actually described it in an interview one time, and he said, "We didn't even have a stoplight."Woody: Yeah, well, my hometown still doesn't have a stoplight.Jim: [laughs] So, you think about that, folks. He went from that to warden of the largest maximum-security prison in the United States which, first of all, goes to show you that it doesn't matter where you're from, it doesn't matter, hard work and really destined. I think he was kind of touched by God to do what he does. He's 80 years old as of today. Woody: So, he is a couple of years younger than my dad. Actually, maybe one year because my dad was born the week before Peral Harbor, and he was born on July 2nd, 1942. Jim: And still going.Woody: Still going, very, very healthy. Jim: We're going to get into that. Woody: But he grew up on a farm, y'all, that's where he developed his work ethic. And let me tell you something, this dude can work. Jim: Let me tell you, if you're 80 years old-- look, if I make 80, I'm considering that a success. When you're 80 and you're still working, that tells you who he is as far as his work ethic is concerned. He grew up on a farm that would play a huge role in his future development. And he grew up in a very religious house. Woody: Right. Back then, not knocking it, but a lot of people, especially ones that were raised on farms, their parents had to raise them as help. I mean, they worked. Jim: That's right. You needed help, you had another kid.Woody: Talking about throwing hay, tending animals and cows and everything else and working the gardens. And hey, there wasn't any PlayStations and cable TV or anything. Hell, they're lucky if they had electricity. Jim: And you woke up 4:30 in the morning to milk them cows and do all those things. Woody: You didn't have a problem going to bed at dark with your ass tired.Jim: You were tired. And his household was very religious, y'all, extremely religious. He attended church, as he described it, every time the doors were open since birth. And he didn't even dance. He wasn't allowed to dance or attend dancing--[crosstalk] Woody: And I had a lot of people that I grew up with that were the same way. That just wasn't acceptable. People talk about Bible Belt, I can't say Vernon is directly, but I know there's some count-- not counties, parishes over there that are actually dry. They don't sell alcohol. They're Bible Belt. So, down here where south Louisiana, where everything goes, and then you hit that area of the state, it was borderline to the west of Alexandria and all that, but they were really, really country, and the farther north you go, the more country getting. There's a couple of dry parishes in the state, and this area would have been one of them.Jim: No doubt. At his age, being born in '42, he was kind of hitting those late teenage years when Elvis Presley-Woody: Absolutely.Jim: -was big. So, I'd love to sit him down and ask him, "How did you avoid dance when Elvis Presley came on the radio?"Woody: He didn't have a radio. Jim: [laughs] Yeah, that's it. That's probably exactly what he would say. "I was out there milking cows. I wasn't worried about the King." Also, Burl Cain never dreamed he would be a prison warden growing up. Of course, being from such a small town, that'd be like most people dreaming they were going to be an astronaut. It just didn't seem possible. As a matter of fact, he remembers vividly fearing Angola, as it was common for his mother to tell him, "If you don't straighten up, you're going to end up in Angola." It was a threat, matter of fact. Woody: And one thing they did even back then, believe it or not, is most schools, once a year, certain age group of kids, they bus them to Angola. And of course, it was educational for them, and they didn't hold back. They took you down the walks and stuff like that, and they fed you the prison food, and they were like, most girls be crying and shit like that, and they're like, "I ain't never coming to this motherfucker."Jim: Yeah. It was used as a form of threat. And so, he had another dream. And believe it or not, y'all, he wanted to be a veterinarian.Woody: Yeah, he wanted to be a vet. And when he graduated from high school, he went to LSU Alexandria campus, y'all, that's a satellite campus, and they have one in Alexandria and one in Shreveport to do just that. But he struggled coming from a small town where the chemistry side of school basically was a fight for him. And they just didn't teach a whole lot beyond the basics, like the element charts and stuff like that at his high school. So, he switched to something that was more prevalent in the areas from and that's agriculture, education. Let me tell you something, vet school is tough. You might as well go and become a doctor. Nowadays, you got to have a four point whatever just to get in, and there's no guarantee you're going to make it. And it's heavy, heavy on sciences. Jim: A lot of people don't realize LSU has probably the best vet school, if not one of the best in the country. Woody: So, imagine this, coming from probably my hometown, I graduated we had 28 in my graduating class. Still don't have a red light to this day. I submit to you that his town was smaller. And back then, they didn't test for the kids to pass the test. You just got the books, you know Jim, it was a different type of education. And they were just giving your basics.But the ag part, growing up on a farm, he already knew tons about it. And pretty much everyone in his family were teachers. So, he settled on basically just working towards a life of teaching after college, which I think is very unique now that I know him.Jim: Right. You look back on that life and you see how those skills benefited him, even though he wasn't in the world of education when he really got going. So, he graduates from LSU in agriculture education. He starts teaching at a high school, and [chuckles] he figures out in about three months' time that teaching is not easy.Woody: Not at the high school level.Jim: Yeah, not at the high school level. So, he figured, "This ain't for me." He lasted about three months, and he went to work for the state of Louisiana at what's known as the Louisiana Farm Bureau. Woody: Yeah, Louisiana, of course, our number one industry is oil and gas. It's kind of a tossup between the two, but then you have seafood, and then it's agriculture. And the seafood and agriculture are kind of on the same level. Like, where I'm from, it's all farms, we raise trees. So, agriculture is beyond just raising cows. It's growing trees. It's everything that you can profit from in the long run by growing it or raising it.Jim: That's right. And he was a master of that, having grown up in it, and then got official education in it. And in 1976--Woody: '76, I was six years old.Jim: I was two. [laughs] In 1976, he finally starts his career in state government, and he started out with the Louisiana Department of Corrections as the Assistant Secretary for Agribusiness.Woody: And that's huge. Now, I'm going to be honest with you, and this is just a straight-up truth, and it's how I got my state government job, my first one with the Department of Corrections. Actually, when I was in high school, I got a job. One of the local state reps got me a job cutting grass at the state-run old folks' home and the Villa. So, when he gets this job with the state, there's a lot of things that go along with that. One of them is, and I have some personal knowledge of this, I'll tell y'all probably on the next episode, one of them is you're civil service. And there's a lot of protections afforded to you through the civil service. And you get your guaranteed raises. You're never going to get rich, but you have protection. There's a certain comfort level of that.Jim: Yeah, they can't just fire you.Woody: Right. Real quick. When I left the university PD, we were civil service, to go to the sheriff's office, and they were like, "Why would you leave a civil service job to go somewhere where you're an at will employee?" I said, "Well, I don't need civil service to save my job." But civil service, and this is the truth, this is how much protection you have, if I was state police and I walked in my captain's office and I got on his desk and I took a shit on his desk, the first time, all they can do is give you a verbal warning. The second time, I go in and take a shit on his desk, then they can write you up for it. And the third time, they can fire you. There's only certain offenses like drugs or whatever that they can fire you for on the spot. Jim: Did you ever take a shit on his desk? [laughs] Woody: No, I didn't. I didn't have a captain either. I answered to the colonel. But just an example. And they say, it's like the Snark missile. For you who don't remember, during the Iraq War, Saddam had these missiles called Snarks. Every time they were developed and every time they fire them, the fuckers blow up. And so, they said, civil service employee is like a Snark missile. You can't fire and you can't make it work. That's not true. A lot of the best people in the world are lifetime state employees, and a lot of my dear friends are. Jim: Absolutely. And look, y'all, this is 1976, so the economy is down at this point in time. That was a really good job. And of course, look, any sort of state job at that level, sometimes you got to know somebody, Woody Overton.Woody: Absolutely. Jim: That ain't changed. That's been that way since the beginning of time.Woody: [crosstalk] -is and it's Louisiana. Jim: That's right. Woody: I got my job at Department of Corrections because my dad pulled some strings with politicians. Jim: Sure. And that was a good job. And this was a downtime in the economy. So, Burl freely admits, and he said this on many interviews, that his brother was instrumental in getting him that job. His brother, y'all, and whether you're aware of this or not, was a senator from the state of Louisiana. Woody: They look almost identical. I'm surprised that they're not twins. Jim: Yeah. So, he starts that job, and he's a rockstar at it. He's doing great, and in 1981, he gets an opportunity. Woody: 10 years before I went there. In 1981, he became the Warden of Dixon Correctional Institute, known as DCI. And he was only 38.Jim: Only 38, warden of the prison. Woody: When I met him, it was in '90 or '91, and of course, he had been the warden for 10 years. DCI, y'all, it's a mixed security prison, and this is kind of a misnomer here too, but mixed security, meaning it has medium, maximum, and some trusty camps. The trusty camps would be like-- Jackson, Louisiana, is full of state-run facilities. Villa, like I was telling you about, geriatric home, state run. The hospital from mentally insane, which is basically on DCI property, right across the street from their Claiborne. And it has the state-run mental hospital. If you don't have healthcare and you legitimately to be, I'd say crazy, what's politically correct term? Jim: Nuts. [laughs] Woody: If you're literally nuts, you went there. Look, I had an aunt who spent most of her life in that hospital. Then, you have DCI. It's all these state run-- the war vets home was there. Biggest state war vets home is there. So, you have all these state-run facilities. And I guarantee you, all my people from Jackson, I've got family from there, all of them were state employees, one facility or another. So, DCI is located right outside of Jackson, y'all, which is about 40 minutes north of Baton Rouge. Small town still to this day. One major road running through it. And then, DCI is off of one of those roads.But the mixed security, the main camp at DCI where I worked, you had two maximum security camps. And then, they had the satellite, the trusty camp at the state mental hospital. And that's because they took everything there. They were orderlies and took care of the grounds and the whole nine yards. And I used to go to little peewee football practice on the state ground. And there, the prisoners would line up on the fence, all the trustys. And years later on extra duty shifts, I would go pick up and I'd go be the guard at the trusty camp there. But they do that for economic reasons, and Burl had them do that for economic reasons because they didn't have to bust them back and forth to work every day. Jim: Wow. Woody: And so, they were there around the clock. And they were instrumental in all the state-run facilities, the trustees, the cow barns and everything. I'm talking about, look, DCI wasn't 18,000 acres, but it was a lot, but spread out in different areas. The cow barns and all that, shit, they raised cattle for the state of Louisiana. But anyway, it was there. Burl--Jim: 38 years old.Woody: Yeah, I didn't know that--[crosstalk]Jim: Damn, when I was 38, there's no way I'm running a prison. I'm lucky to stay out of prison. Woody: You're right. I was in Texas still when I was 38.Jim: Yeah, really amazing and a huge opportunity. And guess what? It was his first experience as being a warden, what he would become just an absolute legend for it. At that time, DCI had about 1400 inmates. That was its capacity. And it was female and male, which made it different from other prisons. It was also relatively new. It had been built in 1976, so it was only six years old. That's like the state-of-the-art presence, especially compared to Angola at that time, which was hundred years old.Woody: By the time I got there in '91, there were no females there. It was probably like 2500, they had added on to it. Jim: So, no females at that time, gotcha. Woody: And then, the other kicker is, and I forgot to mention this earlier, so I say it's about 40 minutes north of Baton Rouge. Well, guess what? It's only 30 miles from Bloody Angola. It's East and West Louisiana. I was born and raised in Clinton, where my grandfather was a judge, but West Feliciana butts up to it. My mama was from West Feliciana, where her daddy was the DA during this time, actually. But that 30 miles is deceiving because back then, they had the old road to Bloody Angola and that wound up the Tunica Hills and part of it's gravel and shit. And when you turn it off at 61, it took you another 40 minutes to get from there, the last 10 miles to get in. Jim: It seemed like 300 miles. It was not what you would call picturesque. You're not looking at the Rockies when you're going down the highway. This is where Cain coined what would eventually be one of his most famous phrases. He started at the facility, and as is common, your first day on the job as warden, you're going to have a meeting with all of your people, and you're going to learn the ins and outs of this prison, things that maybe the outgoing warden didn't tell you. And one of the things he found out was that they had no worship services for the inmates. And it was where he kind of coined the phrase, "moral rehabilitation." Woody: He carried that [crosstalk] to talk about it, but he still carries to this day. And he was serious about it. Jim: Yeah. It was, as a matter of fact, one of the first things he changed at Dixon, was bringing religion into prisons, something that, look, we're going to talk a lot about. So, he becomes a rockstar again. He's just killing it at Dixon. Woody: Let me tell you just a couple real quick stories, and I know I'm going off script, but I met him the first time, I think it was 1990 or 1991, and I got hired. So, he had what they call the White House. And the White House was an administrative building. I had to go to the White House, do paperwork and stuff like that, but I hadn't seen him. And then they put me on the largest rec room-- after I got back from Angola, doing my training and all that. They put me on the largest rec room at DCI. And long story short, I ended up getting in a fight with him because the captain told me, you give them direct orders like, "Hey, do this," and if they don't do it, you can arrest them for it. And so, one of them I told to come with me, and he turned around, ran out in the yard, and I had to hit my pager and get the captain to come. And the captain went out there and got him and arrested him. He said, "But next time you do it, you hit your pager, and you use whatever force necessary to bring the situation out of control." Well, it wasn't two weeks later, Sunday night, they turned off the lights in the dorm, and I told him to clear the rec room, except for the night guys that were up. And one guy was standing on the back wall by the water fountain with his foot up on the wall. And we said, "Get to your house." And I told him, "Get to your house." And he just kind of looked at me. I said, "I'm not going to tell you again. Get to your house." And he didn't move. And so, I hit my pager, and I said, "Well, you're under arrest. You're coming with me?" He said, "Fuck you." And he turned around, walked into the dorm, which was closing down at that time. The lights and the inmates are shuffling back and forth, getting the water, going to the bathroom, and I tackled him, and the fist fight was on. So, Captain Raymond Newman said, he said, "Man, when I hit that rec room door, and I was long ways away from it," he said, "And I didn't see you." He said, "I knew it sure had turned to shit. I knew shit was going down." And what happened was that there's a couple of fireable offenses. One, if you get caught having sex with an inmate or you get caught bringing in contraband or sleeping on duty, civil service doesn't protect you for that. And the biggest one is if another officer is in a fight and you don't help them, then you can be fired on the spot.Well, there's two sergeants on the dorm. I'm fighting with this guy. I didn't think I could start a riot. And I'm fighting with this guy, and he's a big dude, and one of the sergeant is trying to help me, the other froze up, didn't want to do anything. Newman came in. Long story short, we get him out. We were punching, we were punching. My eye was swollen and stuff. Long story short, Ray gets me to the office. He said, "You got to go home." I'm like, "Fucking getting fired, man." I said, "Ray, you told me, use whatever force necessary. He wouldn't stop and put my hands on, and he went to fight." And he said, "You could have started a fucking riot, man. You realize that? You got to go home, and we'll call you." I'm like, "Fuck, I'm getting fired." So, they called me on Monday morning, and he said, "You need to report to Warden Cain's office." Jim: [chuckles] Oh, shit. Woody: My first time in a life on the carpet, besides the military, being called on the carpet, it means you know you're going to get your ass shoot to get fired or whatever. And he brought me in, and I'll never forget it. He actually got up from behind his desk and he shook my hand. He said, "Sergeant Overton, come on in. Have a seat. Boy, tell me what happened." I said, "Warden Cain, Captain Newman, he was in there." I wasn't trying to throw him on the bus. I said, "This is what happened before. He told me next time, use whatever force necessary to bring the situation under control. And so, I did. We ended up fighting." He leaned back and steepled his fingers a little bit, kind of like [unintelligible [00:26:36] would. Warden Cain, he's not big in stature, he's not tall, but he's not fat, but he's kind of-- I don't want to say heavy set, he's more of a round of shape. You wouldn't think this guy has such a presence, but he does, but he was just super, super nice. He said, "All right, son, I get that. I appreciate you taking an initiative. But I'm going to send you somewhere where you could fight every single night." I said, "Well, where is that?" He said, "I'm going to send you to the working cell block. That's where we have our worst of our worst, and somebody's going to be--" You know what, he would curse sometimes. As religious as he was, and he probably did say ass-- when he got mad, he'd curse. But he said, "I'm going to send you back there." And believe me, I passed this down to all the guys I trained over the years. I would tell them, I say, "Look, you don't have to go out of your way put your hands on somebody to look for shit because there's enough assholes out there that are legitimately going to give you a reason to fight them, when you go to arrest them or whatever." He said, "I'm to going put you back there." And I did it, and I rose up as a superstar. And every time he'd see me, he'd say, "How are you doing, Sergeant Overton?" Jim: Love that story, and I'm sure you've got several. And what we're going to do, folks, is this is going to be a docuseries. So, this is going to be three episodes. In the third episode, we're going to have Kelly Jennings, who also has some experience with Burl Cain on the show. And it's going to be storytelling time with Woody and Kelly. And they're going to tell some stories that are just fire.Woody: We need to promote that.Jim: Yeah.Woody: The last episode is going to be The True Stories.Jim: The True Stories. Woody: From Woody-Jim: From Woody. [chuckles]  Woody: -and female Woody.[chuckles] Jim: Yeah. You can't get no better than that. Look, I got the best seat in the house, and I'm going to be kind of the moderator of what will be an amazing episode coming up just in a couple of weeks. We're going to move on. Look, Warden Cain, he became an absolute star. He made a name for himself. And of course, he had a brother that was in politics. And so, they knew the Cain name. And in 1995, the warden of Angola, a guy by the name of John Whitley, who at some point we're going to do a story on, but John Whitley was retiring. And so, secretary at that time was Richard Stalder. Woody: And he was the head of the Department of Corrections when I was there also. Jim: That secretary he is kind of like who is the boss of the wardens.Woody: He's the boss of all the prisons. Jim: Yeah. Outside of the governor, he is the top person in the prison system. And he announces the new warden will be the warden at that time of DCI, which was Burl Cain. Now, you may be surprised to know something. Burl Cain did not want that job. [laughs] Woody: Yeah. And that's because he knew that wardens in Angola didn't last long.Jim: That's right. Woody: I think they averaged just over five years of service because Angola was so bad, y'all, and somebody had to be the scapegoat for the bad things that happened. But he wasn't left much of a choice. He had the most experience of any warden in the state of Louisiana with his 14 years at DCI. So, he took it.Jim: Secretary Stalder just basically said, "You're going to be the warden of Angola."Woody: When he took it, I tell you, it was truly bloody Angola, and they were under all this federal scrutiny and everything else. And he's like, "Mm, don't want to do it." I'm sure it was a challenge to him, but he didn't want to lose what he had going on.Jim: No. You're 14 years at one place, you have a system, it's working. You're looked at as a rockstar in the system, and now you're being sent another challenge. You're comfortable. You don't want to have to do that. But also, Angola had some issues. There were 300 attacks on the staff and 766 inmate-on-inmate assaults, half of which were--Woody: That was in one year, the year before he went there. And this was right around when I was getting out of corrections, he left right after I left DCI. And he went up there but, fuck, I knew about it. I mean, you heard about it. It didn't make the news every day, but it made the correctional officer grapevine. It was bad shit.Jim: Yeah. I remember when he was announced as the warden of Angola, and if you were from the state of Louisiana, I mean, that was big news. Big news. Side note to that, this may or may not seem out of order, but I'm going to mention it now. He was actually still living at DCI throughout-- Wardens typically live at the prison they're at.Woody: They have very nice homes that are provided to them by the state at no cost. It's part of your salary, and it's maintained by the convicts and all that. He took the job. But shit, nobody wants to move-- especially back then, wants to move to Angola, not even on the B-Line, because it's so fucking far away. I knew his wife at the time, and then he was there, and he's got kids and the whole nine yards.Jim: Well, and you may wonder who took his place at DCI. Well, Jimmy Le Blanc took his place there. They were good friends. Woody: Jimmy was an underwarden to Burl at the time. And so basically, Burl Cain tapped him to take it over. Jim: Right. And he made a deal with him. He said, "Look, take it over. I think you would be a great replacement for me, but I ain't moving out of my house." [laughs] He literally said that. And Jimmy Le Blanc was okay with that. In the state of Louisiana, they gave Jimmy Le Blanc kind of a stipend for the home he was already living in, because that's considered a perk. It's a huge perk. Woody: It's a big part of your salary. And I'm sure you have it in here, Jim, that when Stalder retired, Jim Le Blanc ultimately became the head of the corrections--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, we'll be getting into that. But just to finish that point up, Cain lived at DCI, y'all until 1999. And what prompted him to actually leave was the murder of Captain David Knapps in Angola. And we'll get into that in the second episode. Woody: Captain David Knapps was a multi-generational correctional officer, and he lived on the B-Line. And that's all he ever knew. His father done and his grandfather done, his brothers and everybody-- he lived there. And he was brutally murdered in '99 during an attempted prison escape. And we're going to cover that. Ultimately, he's a superhero, but Burl would have been his boss for almost five years at that time.One thing I'm going to tell you about Burl Cain, is as any good leader in any good spot, if your people take care of you, you damn well going to take care of your people. And you're going to know who they are, and you're going to promote them up and everything because, unfortunately, and I've said this many times, and I felt this, I truly did believe this, some of the people that you worked with in corrections were shittier than the convicts. I think that plays into the whole civil service thing, because you can't fire them, you can't make them work, and they knew the rulebooks and all that, but absolutely 95% of them were the best people in the world. But Burl knew who were his rising stars and who would run whatever, and David Knapps was one of them. Jim: Look, being a good leader, one of the best attributes you can have is being able to spot other good leaders.Woody: And I've had so many, and I'm telling you, I think he is probably one of the best leaders I've ever had. And I'm talking about my military career, my police career, my corrections career, whatever. Jim: Yeah, you've been around a lot of them.Woody: And I took a lot of his leadership skills from him. Like that day when I was trouble in his office, I mean, if I'd have been a turd, he'd have fired me. But no, he gave me freedom to run. And he knew I was going to handle my business.Jim: Yeah. So, imagine you're Burl Cain, it's 1995, February, and you're now in charge of the largest maximum-security prison in America. 18,000 acres of sheer intimidation.Woody: And the worst of the worst.Jim: And the worst of the worst.Woody: I would put those guys up there against any convict in the world as far as the horrificness of the crimes, etc. Jim: So, warden gets there, and one of the first things he did was he outlines his philosophy to the inmates, and I'm going to quote him here. He said, "Your dorm is like a city or a community. The beds and houses along that are the street, with the street being the aisle itself. So, three beds down is like saying three houses down. You should visit your neighbors." Woody: He'd actually say that, yeah. Jim: "Counsel your neighbors and be concerned for each other. Keep your city free from drugs and violence. And don't curse. Once you start cursing each other, violence is sure to follow." That was his philosophy. Woody: Absolute genius. And do you know that to this day that's what they call their bunks and stuff as their houses? Jim: Yeah. Well, it essentially is.Woody: And the aisles, because these big long aisles that run in between rows of bunks and they call them their streets. Jim: That's their streets. Woody: Isn't that crazy? Jim: It is. Woody: I never knew Burl was the one that coined that phrase. Jim: Yeah. And so, I'm going to tell you a quick story here, Woody and I both, and this is about when he went to Angola, he had to deal with one thing he didn't have to really deal with at DCI, and that was executions. I don't care who you are, I don't care how blessed you are to deal with certain things, that's hard for anybody.Woody: And keeping in mind that Burl-- when I knew him, as far as I know to this day, he's a very strong Christian man. Jim: Absolutely. His first experience with that was with an inmate by the name of Thomas Ward. And this would play probably-- I bet, if Burl was sitting across from us, and Warden Cain, if you'd ever like to sit across from us, we'd love to have you. I've tried to reach out to your guy. But if he was sitting across from us, he'd probably say this changed him more than anything else he's ever done.It was just after midnight, Warden Cain found himself alone. He was in the death chamber with Thomas Ward. And without one word, Woody, he lifts his hand, he gives a thumbs down signal, which he would later say he hated. He hated doing that. It did not feel right to him, but it was a signal that was common to give to the executioner. This was lethal injection. So, when you would issue that lethal dose, he would give that thumbs down signal. The lethal dose gets administered, and six minutes later, Ward was dead. It was Cain's first execution.Now, immediately, Cain began to regret that signal, as I told you. His uneasiness, it started to grow. He felt guilty because he never found out Ward's spiritual condition that night or before. He just basically ordered the lethal dose to be administered. Warden Cain actually was quoted as saying, "He didn't utter a word as we strapped him to the gurney. When the time came to ask him if he had anything to say, he didn't answer. He just choked up." The execution took place only three months, y'all, after Cain took over as warden and completely spearheaded the change that we're about to tell you in that prison.Woody: So, real quick, let's go back to that. We've talked about executions before on the show, but now in the execution chamber, the warden is the one that's in there, and they have to read the death warrant. But giving that thumbs down, he didn't know what he was going to feel. It's the first time he ever basically legally murdered someone, and that's it. But I know as a Christian man, he just saw somebody being murdered, even though it's legal murder. He just saw the state of Louisiana take a human being's life, and he knows that he's not in there for being a choir boy, but as a Christian, he's thinking, "Mm, you know what? I should have talked to him. And even if he told me, 'Go to hell, I don't believe in Jesus,' I'd have done my job as a Christian to try to spread the word, to give him a chance to call on Jesus to repent." Jim: That's right. And he had a conversation with his mother, Woody, after this. It bothered him that much. And his mom said, "You need to do everything you can to get those guys spiritually ready to meet the Lord, because you're going to have to answer for that."Woody: Because--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, me too.Woody: When you have that opportunity, and so very few people do, to ever have an opportunity to talk to someone that you know is about to die, and even like I said, even if they reject you, you don't take that opportunity, you have to answer for it. Jim: You're going to have to answer for it, and it bothered him. Literally, this was the start, y'all, and we can't even dictate into words how huge this is. But this was the start of a change at Angola. Not to sound like Donald Trump, but like nothing you've ever seen. Just unbelievable. He started instituting what he called, and this was another phrase that he coined, "cultural change." The first thing he did, and thank God, Woody was not working there at this time.Woody: Right. I'd have been damn sure been in trouble for it.Jim: He banned cursing by guards and inmates. Now, you can only control that so much, but it was definitely frowned upon. I think that's why he banned it. Woody: Actually, they put it in the rulebook after that that you can't curse. Jim: Yeah. And he believed that cursing led to other things. It wasn't the curse word itself. Now, as Woody said, he said one every now and then, but it was when it was appropriate. Woody: I said it, I'm not going to lie. [laughter] Woody: What he's talking about-- I got to interject again. Jim: Sure. Woody: What he's talking about is, I would carry this later on. When I talk to the younger guys and say, "Listen, most of the time when you're dealing with people, you're dealing with them on their worst day. They're going to be upset, they're going to be screaming, they're going to be cursing. So, you should start out nice as can be." Look, when I was in the street, unless we were fighting or something, we didn't curse people. Will Graves [unintelligible 00:43:37] would have hung your ass or any department I work for. I said, "You always start out low and treat them super kind, even if they're cursing you and berating you, start out low, because then if you need to jump up and escalate, they'll be surprised."But one person cursing at another one, it's not going to end well usually. Especially between men, and one of them has never had any respect for authority in their entire life, and they hate you as a correctional officer. What is he doing with this just simple thing? By taking out curse words or trying to take out curse words, he is making a mutual level of respect. You take that off, that gasoline that can do no good. Somebody's going to feel degraded, somebody's going to be pissed off, say, "Fuck you, Jim Chapman. You're a dick," where's it going from there? Jim: That's right. Fisticuff. Woody: If you give me a direct verbal order, and I'm like, "Yessir." Then, I can go write you up. There's other ways to handle it. So, that was genius on Burl's part.Jim: It really was. And he also instituted cleanliness, like we told you earlier, he had this conversation with the inmates where he said, "This is your house. Keep your house clean. Encourage your neighbors to keep their house clean. Cut your grass." Woody: Most of them come from lifestyles that they never had anything clean. They lived in the hoods, they were raised around cursing, they had no respect for anything. And he's just trying to give them the base things. Just because you're in prison, doesn't mean you're not living. Jim: That's right. And he started inviting kind of the outside world. Look, let me tell y'all real quick. One of the hardest things to do for me in preparation for these shows is research. And why is that? Because we're dealing with a prison where not a lot gets out, for obvious reasons and I get it, but it requires an enormous amount of work to dig up some of this stuff because it just doesn't get out. He, at the beginning, was very open with inviting people into the prison, letting them see-- look, Barbara Walters, which we'll tell you a story on later, came into the prison and actually did I think it was a 2020 special on the executions that take place there. So it was a huge thing on that front. But his message initially was, "We don't have anything to hide, and we want to let people in here, see what we're doing to change what is in a horrible situation."Woody: Yeah. "Not that we're perfect by far, but we're not hiding anything." The culture in the past was, shit, loose lips sink ships. What happens in Angola, dies in Angola. Jim: So, I know y'all are ready for something here. And that is what was one of the more historic changes that he made right off the bat, well, we got it for you. One of the first, maybe one of the most controversial changes that he made, but this is Burl Cain genius right here. So, he's sitting there-- I'm assuming he's sitting at his desk one morning, this is how I'm picturing it. And he says, "We got a problem. Our death row inmates, most of them can't read and they can't write." It might surprise y'all to know that they didn't offer any sort of education, even as simple as reading and writing to death row inmates.Woody: They just locked them up. Jim: Yeah. So, you might say to yourself, "Well, who cares?" Burl Cain cared. And the reason he cared was not-- these are condemned men, so they're probably not getting out. Although we have done many stories with you guys where people were exonerated and didn't do it. So, there are those situations. But his thing was, if they can't read and they can't write, especially if they can't read, they can't read the Bible. That was a problem for him. He didn't like that.Woody: That's exactly right.Jim: And so, it was the first change he made, was he said, "We're going to offer education to our death row inmates." That's huge, Woody Overton. Woody: That's huge. Like you said, most of them had never had any kind of education. Right? Jim: Right. Woody: Ultimately, y'all, during this time, the death penalty put on hold and stuff like that, years later and stuff. But what do you give somebody who's locked up 23 hours a day and then they're all by themselves? That's where people go crazy and then they got nothing to do, they didn't have TVs, they didn't have all this stuff. So, he gives them, we say the word "hope," not hope that they're going to live, but he gives them something to do besides sit there and rot. Jim: That's right. Woody: And if you're going to sit there and rot, if the Bible is the only book you can read, maybe you glean something from it. And it goes back to what his mama said, you got to give them the opportunity. Jim: You got to give them the opportunity. And that's just what he did. It was controversial. Look, there were people screaming, "Why are we spending money to educate death roommates?" And yes, most of them did horrible things. But his thought process was, the way he felt about it, "I'm not only in charge of their imprisonment, I'm in charge of their soul. And this is between me and God and what I am doing to try to help these men." And that's the way he thought. And the prisoners themselves really started to take note. This guy seems like he cares. I mean, it was probably an absolute shock to them. Woody: He didn't judge them for what-- And I got this from his time too, and he told me this. He said, "Your job is not to punish them. Your job is to keep them safe and keep the public safe from them escaping. They're doing their time for their crime. Your job is not to punish. You treat them like a human being." And nobody had ever done that. Jim: Nobody had ever done that. He does another historical thing right after that, and that is, he was the first warden to invite, and in this case, it was the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, to come in. And basically, they had like a satellite seminary right there at Angola. For those of you that don't know what they do, they offer degrees in the field of seminary so you can become an ordained minister.Woody: Basically, it's like a Bible college.Jim: Yeah. This was genius. I cannot stress enough how genius this was, because in his long-term vision and if anybody can say anything about Burl Cain, he had vision. In his long-term vision, he saw inmates changing other inmates through God. And that's what was missing in prisons, in his opinion. That was probably, looking back on it, one of the most successful programs he ever had. Those graduates, they would be allowed to travel, not only to other prisons in Louisiana, but eventually all over the country. They were going all over the country speaking at these other prisons, and he called that imposing morality. Woody: And back to you, now, you get a degree from a college, then you have a little bit more self-worth. And these college studies aren't free. They were funded by outside donations. And Angola offered a four-year college degree in ministry, including instructions in Greek and Hebrew, as well as lessons on how to preach.Jim: Yeah. And it really changed the lives of not only these inmates themselves and gave them self-worth, but it enabled them to go out and then work to change others. Woody: And this gives me the bumps again, if you're doing that and you get self-worth for the first time in your life, guess what you're not doing? You're not raping and killing. Inside the prison, there's still raping and killing.Jim: Mainly hit it right on the head. Woody: Look, we're going to talk about Christianity and God and all this stuff a lot during this series, but here's the deal. I don't care what you believe in. And there certainly are convicts at Angola that were like, "Fuck you, I don't believe in anything. I'm an atheist," whatever. And that's fine too. But they were given an opportunity because Burl was raised that way. Jim: That's right. And he knew that the principles in religion were sound things that would keep people out of trouble.Woody: He also knew Angola was full of the darkness. He was trying to shine a little light and make the darkness back up. Jim: That's right. So, he started thinking about this and looking at the things that were missing from Angola. This became pretty successful. And he knew that work was or learning to work was critical in rehabilitation. Many of the inmates in Angola, y'all, they had never learned to work. They basically grew up in life, they robbed, they raped, they pillaged, and they murdered to survive. So, he instilled what he called meaningful work. Woody: Well, yeah, and let me tell you this, another famous Burl Cain saying, when you get to prison, he introduced himself and he said, "Welcome to the Department of Corrections. You're here for however long you've been sentenced. We're not here to punish you. We're here to make you secure. But you're sentenced to hard labor. Religion is an option. You'll have that opportunity while you're here to get religion, but work is not. You're going to work every day, and everybody has a job." And that goes back to him teaching the basics. Like I said, most of them never even knew how to work. They weren't raised like-- my daddy raised me, and your daddy raised you with a good work ethic. Jim: That's right. And it also gave them that pride that they were seeking, obviously, teaching these inmates to work. And he wasn't done yet. And this is probably-- well, it definitely is another part of his vision in those early days. And that was he founded a program in Angola called Malachi Dads. He did this with some inmates who came to him. Now, Warden Cain, he took note, y'all, of the fact that almost all convicts on Angola grew up in a broken home with the father typically being absent. Look, that's at any prison in the country, overall, it is not even close. Woody: It's not something we're making of. Jim: It's an issue.Woody: We're not people we're picking on or whatever. It's just the way it is. Jim: Yeah, I mean, you're talking 6000 inmates and most of them were fathers, but they came from broken homes. And so, it didn't take a genius for Warden Cain to figure out maybe that's part of the problem. Now, you can't fix the people that are in there. They can't be at home with their kids, they're in prison. But this program--Woody: And they're there in prison for the worst. [crosstalk] Jim: The worst of the worst. So, he knew that there's kids out there and they're now growing up without a father because he's in prison.Woody: Well, also, I'm going to interrupt you again, there are generational prisoners in there. There are fathers and whose sons, or grandfathers, or dads whose sons murder and grew up because it's the only thing they ever knew, right? Jim: Absolutely. Woody: And they got sent to Angola. I'm telling you, there's generational. Their grandson, the oldest one now, who's old, old timer in Angola whose son is down now for life of murder, that guy's son would come in for murder. He's looking this and he's like--Jim: It's a pattern. Woody: Oh, yeah. It's proven. And you're right, him being a forward genius thinker, he's like, "Mm, you know what? Why wouldn't I try this? Why wouldn't I try? If I can make a change in one person's life, it'd be something special." And nobody had ever done what you're about to tell about.Jim: That's right. He gets with about, let's say, these six trusted inmates that he had that they were all graduates of this seminary. And he says, "Do y'all see the same problem I do?" And they said, "Not only do we see the problem, we can institute a program where we teach other inmates how to be fathers behind bars." It's possible. Look, I got chill bumps again. They form what they call Malachi Dads. Basically, this is one of the best programs he ever instituted. And it was a program in which fathers that were incarcerated learned how to parent their kids from inside of prison. We're going to play you a clip real quick. These are the inmate founders of Malachi Dads. And they're discussing a little bit about Warden Cain and a lot about that program. We're going to play that right now. [video recording of Malachi Dads]Ron: My name is Ron Hickson. I've been incarcerated for 25 years. I'm serving life sentence for second-degree murder. Darryl: My name is Darryl Waters. I'm from Gibson, Louisiana, and I was sentenced for second-degree murder in 1992. George: My name is George Gilliam. I am from New Orleans. I'm currently serving a life sentence for a second-degree murder. We discovered in 2006 that a child of an incarcerated father had a 70% likelihood to come to prison and so we discovered those statistics and God gave us favor and that became Malachi Dads. Just because you're locked up in prison, that does not give you the right to not still be a father. Healthy people, who have a heart that's healed, who have a soul that's whole, they want to help, they want to give back. And that's what we do every day. Interviewer: Why do you think violence has come down in Angola?Inmate: When Warden Cain came on the scene, what he did was open up the door of opportunity. He was able to see, "If I can get these guys to start coming out to success because what success do, it change the way you think." If I can achieve something, I feel better about myself. [clip ends]Woody: Wow. Super. There's so much to be said, y'all. I'm going to do one more part that is-- maybe I don't want to say shows a harsher side, because it's not a harsher side, but it shows the business side of Burl. Jim: And a good story.Woody: He's all about trying to shine the light in the darkness and see what kind of positive things can come about it. But he's also all about, it's his prison and who's going to rule it. But listen to this story. This is crazy. And Jim researched this, and I had never-- believe it or not, I had never even heard of this. But as we told you many times on the show, Angola is huge. It's sprawling over 18,000 acres. And that's mostly-- the camps are spread out. It's mostly agriculture, big fields, Tunica Hills, Mississippi River, shit ton of wildlife. So one day, one of the convicts saw a huge 400-pound black bear on the property, and they freaked out and they're like, "Holy shit." Most of these guys are city boys, etc. Jim: They don't like the wolfdogs.Woody: Right. Until two years ago, I had never seen a bear in the state of Louisiana. But in Jackson, where DCI was, the first restaurant I've worked at was called Bear Corners. Back in the day, black bears were preliminary in the area. And now, they're coming back because of strict hunting ban, etc. But you got this mass 18,000 acres, and as rare as they are, there's a bear.Jim: In the middle of the prison.Woody: Massive black bear living in the middle of Angola. And you know what Burl thought? Jim: [laughs] [crosstalk] Woody: You know what? Kind of scared me, And I know it scared them because they came running to me. And he's like, "That's just extra security."[laughter]Jim: That's exactly how he said it. Woody: And I'll quote him. He said, "I love that bear being right where it is. And I tell you what, none of our inmates are going to try to get out after dark and wander around when they might run into a big old bear. It's like having another guard at no cost to the taxpayer." He was about business. We keep talking about all these good things that he's doing, let me tell you something, and we'll talk about it in later episodes in the series. I've seen it, that's one dude you don't want to see mad. And it's one dude that knows his business, right? Jim: That's right. Woody: Anyway, the bear was first seen by an inmate crossing the road in the prison. And it was taking a stroll near the center of prison, where about five and a half square miles were mostly untouched piney woods, y'all. And the prison workers measured the bear's footprints, which were six inches in diameter. Now, every inch that they can measure equals 75 pounds. The biologists have figured this out. So, that made that bear about 450 pounds. And Cain said, the wildlife people told us they think it's a big female they've been tracking for a while. And Warden Cain estimated at the time that 8 to 10 bears lived on that 18,000 acres. Jim: Holy crap. Woody: You better believe he promoted the shit out. Jim: Oh, yeah, I was about to say that. He told every inmate.Woody: When they come in, "Hey, if you out in the field, you see a bear, you ain't going to be the fast. You just got to be fast from one of the other convicts. We might not shoot you if you're running from the bear, but if you go out there at night, that bear is hungry. Bears got to eat." Jim: Y'all, we're just getting started. Woody: Yeah, just getting started. Jim: But we got to cut this one off. We've gone over an hour. Woody: Still though, I'm going to say it again, wait until you hear-- we talked a lot about-Jim: Oh, my God, we ain't scratched the surface.Woody: -the positive side today, which is something. But I'm going to tell you something, tough dude, bruh. There's a reason he lasted as long as he lasted and is still doing what he does. But it's the totality of circumstances of the man, which to me makes him a legend. Jim: Just to give you a little sauce for what you can look forward to the next episode, we're going to talk about a little bit about Billy Cannon and how Burl Cain was instrumental in bringing him into Angola. We're going to talk about Hurricane Katrina and the effect that that had on Angola prison. Y'all going to love that story. Look, this is stuff you cannot find anywhere else. Woody: We're going to talk about some executions. Jim: Yeah, how about his second execution, different than the first, right? Woody: And then what happened following after that. Just a whole--Jim: Captain Knapps. Woody: Captain David Knapps.Jim: A bunch more to bring you. Woody: Can't wait to bring you. And we appreciate and love each and every one of y'all. Jim: Yeah. Thank y'all for-Woody: Patreon members-Jim: -everything. Woody: -you rock. Our Patreon members, the show couldn't run without you. We appreciate y'all so much. Y'all, look, if you want to be a patron member, go to patreon.com/bloodyangola. Jim: We've got a bonus episode coming next week. So, what we're going to do next week when we record our second episode of the story of Burl Cain, we're also going to record our bonus episode just for patron members. And what it's going to be on, y'all, is we released the first episode to the general public, it was on executions and we kind of told a little bit of the story and it was great. We've got more for you, but it's only going to be for patrons, that second one, it's a good one. Woody: Y'all, we have all the different tier levels with all the different benefits. And I'm telling you right now, I've been doing this over five years, podcasting, and Real Life Real Crime original probably doesn't have as many patron episodes locked up as [crosstalk] of Bloody Angola. Jim: We got a ton of it. That's right. Woody: If you like Bloody Angola, go subscribe. If you can't be a patron member, we love you just as much. Jim: And transcripts. People love the transcripts. We've got all of our episodes transcribed on Patreon for some of the tiers, and these are not transcriptions, y'all, that are like the AI versions. This is actually someone sitting down typing because our southern accents don't cross over too well. [laughs] Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: Unfortunately, it's horrible. Woody: Look, we have merchandise. People love the shirts and--Jim: Hats. Woody: What about the Bloody Angola wine? Jim: Oh, yeah. We got limited wine in there for you, ladies.Woody: And that's good stuff. We sold out of at the live shows. But anyway, y'all, please share us-Jim: Review us.Woody: -like us and leave us a review if you're so inclined. And we appreciate you and love you. And wait until you hear what's coming next. Jim: Oh, yeah. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace. 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In this episode of Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, We continue to cover the stories of those inmates eventually executed at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, from the crimes to their final walk.#Louisianastateprison #AngolaPrison #BloodyAngola #TrueCrime #Podcast #WoodyOverton #Podcasts #Deathchamberpart2 #deathchamber #Execution #ConvictOur Sponsors for this episode have a great deal for you!GET 16 FREE MEALS PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!Full Transcript Death Chamber Part 2[Bloody Angola theme]Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Bloody- Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Thank y'all for listening and liking and sharing. Please continue to do so. Leave us a review wherever you listen up in your podcast. And Patreon members, we appreciate y'all, you rock. Thank you for your continued support. This one, we're going back to one that got a whole lot of interest and-- [crosstalk]Jim: People loved it.Woody: Well, I love it.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I guess, you're twisted y'all, right? We're going to tell you about- Jim: Death chamber.Woody: -death chamber stuff.Jim: Yeah, Part 2.Woody: Execution. Yeah, Death Chamber Part due. Jim: Part duh.Woody: Duh.Jim: Yeah. So, we're going to get into it and what we do with these folks-- If you hadn't listened yet, you can go back and listen to Death Chamber Part 1. The good thing about these is we cover just individual convicts that were executed at Angola. We tell just a little synopsis of their crime, and they got some really interesting final words in there for these guys.Woody: [crosstalk] -things like that.Jim: People just loved it the first time, so we're going to continue with it. I'll start out with our first convict up for, I guess, grabs today, and that is Leslie Lowenfield. Leslie Lowenfield was executed in 1988, and he rode the lightning.Woody: Yeah, he graduated-- [crosstalk] Jim: Electrocuted. Gruesome Gertie. Woody: Gruesome Gertie.Jim: He had a seat in that chair. And to tell you a little bit about this guy, he was a native of Guyana. He came to Louisiana from Canada in 1981, and he met his primary victim, which was a lady named Sheila Thomas.Woody: I think he's well-traveled. I think Guyana is like in Africa or somewhere.Jim: Yeah, then he goes to Canada.Woody: And then he comes to south, to Louisiana.Jim: He figured it out. He figured out the USA was where he wanted to be, I guess. And we didn't want him here after--Woody: To make [crosstalk] Gruesome Gertie.Jim: Yeah. Sheila Thomas was his primary victim. She was a deputy sheriff in JeffersonParish, Louisiana,-Woody: JP. Yeah.Jim: -which is around the New Orleans area.Woody: Actually, it's one of the largest parishes geographically, because it expands all the way around Orleans, all the way down to Grand Isle. Did you know Grand Isle is in Jefferson Parish?Jim: I did not.Woody: Absolutely. There it cut across all that marsh and everything else, land wise,Tangipahoa is the longest parish in the state. North and south, I think JP is the biggest. Jim: Interesting. I didn't know Tangi was the longest.Woody: Yeah, Tangi is longest state north and south. Very longest parish--[crosstalk]Jim: Very interesting. So, Sheila Thomas was a deputy sheriff. And Ms. Thomas, along with her daughter, young daughter, who was Shantel Osborne moved in with Lowenfield in the summer of 1981. So, you can already see. Uh-oh.Woody: Right.Jim: Lowenfield and Ms. Thomas, they lived together off and on for about a year. During that year, Ms. Thomas left Lowenfield on three separate occasions and returned to live with her mother. So, they're probably fighting, having arguments.Woody: Off and on. Went off and on.Jim: Yeah. Lowenfield became increasingly bitter following each separation. So, every timeshe would leave, he would get more and more pissed.Woody: Right.Jim: When Ms. Thomas returned to her mother's home for the last time, he repeatedly threatened and harassed Ms. Thomas and her mother, victim, Myrtle Griffin. In the late afternoon of August 30th, 1982, Owen Griffin, Sheila Thomas' stepfather, was in a vacant lot near his home in Marrero, which is like an outskirts of New Orleans. He was playing cards with friends. Owen Griffin, all of a sudden, hears shots ring out from their home. He runs to the house, rushed inside, where more shots were fired. When police arrived, they found five bodies sprawled about the living area of the house, they found the bodies of Sheila Thomas, her four-year old daughter Shantel, Owen Griffin, his wife Myrtle Griffin,Woody: Wow.Jim: -and Carl Osborne, the father of Shantel. All of the victims had sustained multiple gunshot wounds, each had been shot in the head at close range.Woody: That's crazy. Well, think about that last seconds when you're sitting there and whatever pops off and he shoots the first one. You're like, "What the f--?" And then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.Jim: Just blasting--[crosstalk]Woody: You're just sitting there. You know, I'm sure someone trying to scramble and getaway, but he's close enough to shoot them in the head. Jim: No doubt about it.Woody: No mercy. Animal.Jim: No mercy, and total animal. And he goes to court, gets convicted, gets sentenced to death. And eventually, as a matter of fact, in 1988, he does get executed. His final statement included remarks directed at his two attorneys, Wayne Walker and John Craft, who had worked on his trial and appeal. His last words were, "I hope you feel satisfied. Don't give up on me. Although my life will be over tonight, because the one responsible is out there."Woody: Wow.Jim: Yeah. Deny it to the end. "There is no reason to hold anything against me. And the rest who would lie when I'm gone, the body will be gone, but the spirit will live on. Mr. Walker and John Craft, your job was more important than my life. I hope you feel satisfied. Thank you to all of you, and peace."Woody: Did he say peace?Jim: He said peace. That was his final words.Woody: Peace-- [crosstalk]Jim: How dare he use the word.Woody: Right. Road to hell. Yeah.Jim: [chuckles] Yeah.Woody: [crosstalk] -use a moniker.Jim: But here's an interesting thing about this entire case. Dale Brown, the head basketball coach at that time, actually attended his execution.Woody: Oh, I didn't know that.Jim: They had been corresponding since Dale Brown toured Angola years earlier with the LSU basketball team actually became friends, and he attended that execution. I found that very interesting.Woody: Wow. That's crazy. So, that was the real deal execution. Gruesome Gertie. I got to sit in probably around that same time, and the chair would not, obviously, get executed, but think about the difference between what they do now. They just put him asleep, in a Gruesome Gertie,-Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: -they strap you in and you about to ride, "rahhh." Jim: Yeah, lights.Woody: Yeah, lights in. And off-on. rahhh. They don't just hit him once. They did it like, three or four to five times. So, fuck him, and he got what he deserved.Jim: Yeah. And don't use our peace anymore. [laughs]Woody: Yeah. Never use the peace. Tell the devil peace, son of a bitch. Jim: That's right.Woody: All right. I'm going to take you to a guy named Timothy Baldwin. And the date of the murder was April the 4th, 1978. He killed a lady named Mary James Peters. Now, what's unusual about this killing one person and getting a death penalty? Well, Mary James Peters was 85 years old. That's bad, right?Jim: Yeah. Elderly.Woody: But she was blind.Jim: Oh, my God. That's horrible.Woody: He beat her to death with a skillet, a stool, a small television, and a telephone. You would think, me being retired from, say police, I would have all these pronunciations correctly, but I'm going to say this one wrong, because every time I say it, somebody corrects me. But I say Ouachita Parish, Louisiana, which is, y'all, is all the way up northeast in Louisiana. Great fishing and hunting. He was electrocuted in Louisiana on September 10th, 1984. Let me tell you about the case.Timothy Baldwin, and his wife Rita, and their seven children were neighbors of Mary James Peters in West Monroe, Louisiana. Again, y'all, that's way northeast Louisiana. He was roommates with them from 1971 until 1977. Mrs. Peters was godmother to their youngest, Russell. During the latter part of their stay in West Monroe, William Odell Jones also resided with the Baldwins. Okay.The group went to Bossier City for six months, and now, y'all, Bossier City is on the other end of the north part of state by Shreveport. All right, so probably about a three-hour drive. The group went to Bossier City for six months and then moved to Ohio. The oldest daughter, Michelle, remained in West Monroe with one brother. A second son entered the service. Marilyn Hampton and her three daughters stayed with the Baldwins in Ohio. Marilyn, Timothy Baldwin, and her children then left, accompanied by Jones. Baldwin and Jones worked together in the business of installing aluminum siding. After the departure of her husband, Rita Baldwin got into financial difficulties and was picked up on bad check charges. Her four younger children went to live with Michelle in West Monroe. Meanwhile, Timothy Baldwin, our bad guy, Jones, Marilyn Hampton and her three children led an itinerant existence. Their last means of transportation was a 1978 black Ford van which had been rented in Tampa, Florida.On April 4th, 1978, Marilyn Hampton and Timothy Baldwin drove the van to West Monroe. Jones and the children stayed at a cabin in Holmes State Park, near Jackson, Mississippi. Jackson, Mississippi is not that far. Ouachita, however you want to say it in the Monroe is pretty much on the Mississippi, Louisiana. And just north of that is the Arkansas line. So, about an hour from there to Jackson. So, Baldwin and Marilyn Hampton visited Michelle's apartment in West Monroe but left there around 8:00 PM. Shortly thereafter, a van was seen parked in front of Mrs. Peters' house. A man and woman were observed leaving the residence between 10:00 PM and 11:00 PM. Shortly before their departure, passersby saw and heard indications that someone in the Peters' home was being beaten.Baldwin testified in his own behalf and admitted that he and Marilyn visited Mrs. Peters that evening but denied the murder. Mrs. Peters, who was 85 years old, was beaten with various things, among them a skillet, a stool, and a telephone.Jim: Oh, my God, and this is a blind woman. Woody: Right.Jim: She doesn't even know it's coming at. Woody: Right. Yeah.Jim: Poor. Damn.Woody: That's unimaginable, right? Jim: Poor lady. Argh.Woody: Think about the one I had Ms. [unintelligible [00:12:39] had the 57 blows. It was from a base and a Coke bottle, but she was on a walker and stuff. But at least she could see it coming, yeah?Jim: Yeah, that's awful.Woody: Anyway, she remained on the kitchen floor overnight and was discovered the next morning shortly before noon by an employee of the Ouachita Council Meals on Wheels, who was bringing her noon meal. Although helpless and incoherent, Mrs. Peters tried to defend herself against the police officers and the ambulance attendant who took her to the hospital.Jim: Poor woman, man.Woody: She doesn't know who they are. Jim: Yeah.Woody: Dr. A. B. Gregory saw her in the emergency room around 12:30 PM on April 5th, 1978, and found her in a semi-comatose. Her left cheekbone and jawbone were shattered. She had brain damage from multiple contusions and lacerations. According to Dr. Gregory, Mrs. Peters could not communicate rationally. She died of the injuries the following day. Dr. Frank Chin, who performed the autopsy, attributed her death to massive cerebral hemorrhage and swelling, secondary to external head injuries. So, brain bleeds ultimately killed her and it didn't kill her instantly. Can you imagine that, living there, laying there on the floor all night?Timothy Baldwin and Marilyn Hampton were subsequently located in El Dorado, Arkansas. Remember, y'all told you, Arkansas is just north. Timothy Baldwin signed consents for the search of their motel room and the van. Two blue bank bags, one empty and one containing savings bonds and certificates of deposit payable to Mary James, were found in the van. Jones, to whom Marilyn Hampton and Timothy Baldwin had made statements both before and after the crime, helped police officers locate a safe that had belonged to the victim in the LaFourche Canal in West Monroe. Baldwin's finger and palm prints were found on various items in the Peters' home, a cigarette lighter, a television set, and a coffee cup.Baldwin was found guilty, and the jury did what they should have. They recommend the death sentence. So, Timothy George Baldwin was executed on September 10th, 1984. Baldwin was convicted of beaten to death the 85-year-old blind woman, Mary James Peters. And Peters, who was a former neighbor of Baldwin's and the godmother's of his youngestchild, was beaten with everything I told y'all about. Baldwin maintained his innocence and gave this final statement. He said, "I've always tried to be a good sport when I've lost something, and I see no reason not to leave this world with the same policy. After all, it was a hell of a battle. I therefore congratulate all those who have tried so hard to murder me. I definitely have to give them credit as it takes a very special kind of person to murder an innocent man and still be able to live with themselves."Jim: Victim [unintelligible [00:15:37], huh? Woody: Burning in hell.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I'm going to tell you something. Jim: Hella jail as usual.Woody: Hella jail. But you go through all these years, he sat on death row for shorter time than they do now. You know, you're strapped down and that's going to be your last words. I'm thinking about trying to find me some Jesus.Jim: Amen.Woody: Even if I don't believe them and be like, "Oh, Lord, if you could please forgive me ifyou're really there and bring me home." But he's saying, "Mm, I didn't do it."Jim: What a horrible human. Wow. Yeah, we're getting real on this one. Look, these guys, they were executed. So, you're going to hear some disturbing stuff, but we're real with this stuff.Woody: Executed for a reason.Jim: That's right. I'm going to tell you about Sterling Rault. And Sterling Rault was executed, y'all, by electrocution, Gruesome Gertie in 1987, August 24th to be exact. And this is an interesting case, because a lot of these guys that end up on death row and executed, they come from really hard upbringings, and a lot of them didn't have money their whole lives. Sterling Rault was a little bit different. He had a good job, he was a Comptroller at a company called LUTEX. And there was a lady there named Janie Francioni. And Mike, if he were here, could help me pronounce that Italian last name.Woody: Right. [crosstalk] -for sure.Jim: But we're going to go with Francioni. She worked as a secretary. On the evening of March 1st, 1982, which was a Monday, fellow employees observed Rault and Francioni leaving work together in her car. Less than an hour later, three U.N.O. students, which is University of New Orleans inside of New Orleans, they saw the two struggling in the campus parking lot. Francioni screamed at the students, asked them to call the police and make him leave her alone, because he was attempting rape. The students closest to the car observed what appeared to be splashes of blood on her clothing. Rault repeatedly said he had to get her to the hospital, before throwing her into the car from the driver's side all the way to the passenger's side and driving away.Woody: He was saying [crosstalk] the witnesses.Jim: Yeah.Woody: "Oh, I got to get her to the hospital." [crosstalk]Jim: Basically, grabbed her and threw her so hard into the car, she went straight into the passenger seat. So, he was probably a strong guy.Woody: Right.Jim: Approximately 9:20 that evening, a state trooper driving north on Paris Road in an isolated area of New Orleans East stopped to investigate what appeared to be a brush fire and discovered a burning female body.Woody: Ah, worse way.Jim: Close by were partially used five-gallon cans of gasoline and Francioni's blood stained car, which smelled strongly of gasoline. So, he's trying to burn the car in her. A spent bullet was even found on the floor of the car. The victim had a man's belt wrapped around her neck and a jagged wound on the right side of her neck. She had been shot twice. One bullet had struck her in the thigh, traveling into the abdomen, through the small intestines, stomach and liver before exiting the left side of her chest. The pathologist actually testified that this that this would have caused extensive slow bleeding. The wound would have been very painful and would have resulted in death in less than a matter of hours.The second bullet entered directly into the abdomen, and damaged blood vessels in the right kidney and the large blood vessel known as the interior vena cava, before lodging in the spine and would have also caused really rapid bleeding. That wound would have been fatal in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. So, we're painting a picture of here is how she suffered. It was just horrible. The victim was dead-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] twice. Yeah.Jim: Yeah. The victim was dead when the neck wound was inflicted and she was set on fire. Thank, God. Her fingernail scrapings have human blood on them. So, she fought. She's a fighter. Janie Francioni had been with her mother and a friend during the preceding weekend and had had no sexual encounters. I'm sure they tested for that. Her mother took her to work on Monday morning. However, she had engaged in sexual activity 12 to 24 hours prior to her death. Vaginal swabs showed semen fluid but no sperm. Sterling Rault had a vasectomy in 1979.When police searched the area, they detected movement under a nearby bridge. As they approached, a man broke out and ran. After a brief chase, he turned around, threw up his hands, and hollered, "I'm Sterling Rault".Woody: Ran like a bitch.Jim: Yeah. He appeared quiet, calm and relaxed. He was dressed in casual clothing. He was lacking a belt. What his detective brain can put two and two together on that one. And he had a strong aroma of gasoline. So, there were several fresh red scratch marks across his chest. His right hand was swollen. After being advised of his rights, he claimed two men in ski masks kidnapped him and Francioni and raped her. Of course.Testimony at the trial revealed that Rault had been embezzling funds from LUTEX, and his secretary was about to basically ride him out. So, in December, 1981, .25 caliber semi-automatic weapon had been sold to a buyer with a driver's license in the name of Jerry Jones. In executing a search of Rault's residence, they recovered a gun box or the pistol, a box of .25 caliber cartridges and a Mississippi driver's license in the name of Jerry Jones.Woody: Jerry Jones.Jim: So, there it is. They end up taking him to court, obviously, and he gets the death penalty. So, he got executed on August 24th, 1987. He was convicted of raping, stabbing, shooting, and burning the body of Jane Ellen Francioni, a 21-year-old secretary, as we told you. And his final statement was, "I would like the public to know that they are killing an innocent man at this time."Woody: Yeah, three for three. All innocent, huh?Jim: Crazy. "I pray that God will forgive all those involved." How nice of you. "I, personally, do not hold any animosity towards anyone. The country professes to be 'One nation under God,' but the death penalty goes against the word of God. Into the arms of--" [crosstalk]Woody: So does murdering, shooting, laid twice, and choking her with a belt and everything else.Jim: Yeah. "Into the arms of love of God I now go. I love y'all. May God bless y'all." There was a little write up in the paper shortly after these. It was interesting, because he was fighting to try to get these stays of execution, as are typical, but unsuccessful. He rode the lighting as he deserves.Woody: I'm so glad Gruesome Gertie was still involved in all these stories. Jim: Yeah.Woody: I just think that's such a good way for them to go. I know so many people hate the death penalty, and I don't want anybody that's innocent, but these people-- [crosstalk]Jim: Hear some of these stories. You know what?Woody: It's like having a migraine. Everybody knows about someone, not someone about murder, but unless you're going through it, unless it's your loved one. I've seen people who said before their family members got murdered, they were against the death penalty. And after their family members got murdered, they wanted the death penalty.Jim: Yeah.Woody: You understand it, but you don't get it. Jim: That's right.Woody: Well, let's take to our next winner, Antonio James. And, y'all, he's a murderer during some robberies, and he killed two people in January of 23rd, 1979, and was arrested on the 26th of 1979. He was born in 1954, so he was at 1964, 1974, so he was like 24, 25. This happened in Orleans Parish. He actually, this winter, got lethal injection instead of Gruesome Gertie.Jim: Got the needle.Woody: Right, got the needle. Let me tell you about it. So, James had amassed a very extensive juvenile and criminal record by the time he was tried for the murder of-- He murdered two people, y'all, Henry Silver, age 70, and Alvin Adams. I don't know what Adams age was. But James had amassed a very extensive juvenile and criminal record by the time he was tried for the murder of Silver. The post-sentence investigation report-- Let me tell you about that. Anytime you get convicted of any crime, especially you're going to do a lot of time, there's actually a division of the parole officers and probation officers who do, what they call a PSI, presentence investigation report on you, and they tell your whole priorcriminal history, work history and everything else, drug use, whatever, and then they write a synopsis on whether to tell the judge whether or not they're likely to offend again.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, that helps the judge determine how many years or whatever they're going toget.Jim: I didn't know that.Woody: Unless it's automatic life in prison. The post-sentence investigation report prepared for the sentencing court listed 37 juvenile incidents. 37. That's the ones that they called [crosstalk]. That's the ones that they called him for. Think about all the ones he got away with.Jim: Probably double it.Woody: Right. James was ordered confined to the Louisiana Training Institute at age 14.And, y'all, that is basically the Angola, we need--[crosstalk] Jim: LTI.Woody: LTI.Jim: [laughs] That's what you used to call it.Woody: That was right down the road from me. We're going to actually cover that one day, because that's real shit there too. But most of these guys, a lot of them go to death row. But anyway, he was locked up in basically juvenile prison which was a very bad place at age 14.In 1973, he was convicted of attempted armed robbery and sentenced to serve three years at the state penitentiary. During this period of confinement, he was convicted of attempted simple escape. He was released in 1975. I don't understand all these years, because armed robbery carries 99 attempted, I think is 40 up to, and then the simple escape alone is 10 years. Anyway, he was released in 1975. In 1978, he was charged with aggravated rape. That's a mandatory life, if not death penalty. But the charge was later refused by the prosecution.James was convicted of the first-degree murder of Alvin Adams on January 23rd, 1979 and was sentenced to life imprisonment. Okay. The first-degree murder, he could have got the death penalty. He was convicted on January 26th of 1979. So, just shit, three days later, armed robbery of Robert Hooten and was sentenced to 99 years for this offense, the maximum under Louisiana law. Now, we go to Henry Silver.On January 1, 1979, James approached 70-year-old Henry Silver as the latter was getting out of his car in his neighborhood in New Orleans. James placed a gun to Silver's head and demanded his money. When Silver shouted for help, James placed the gun under Silver's right ear, cocked the hammer, and fired a shot into Silver's head. James then rifled through Silver's pockets and removed his wallet containing $35. He drove away in a nearby waiting car. Silver died a few hours later at Charity Hospital.Now, let me tell y'all this, I used to go there all the time back in the day. It's closed now after Katrina, but Charity Hospital was rated as the number one trauma center in the world for gunshots [crosstalk] you know why? Because it handled all New Orleans shit. In the 1990s, the Orleans was the murder capital of the world. So, I've seen some crazy shit in there. But anyway, he obviously lived on the machine for overnight. James was arrested on January26th, 1979 when he bungled another armed robbery attempt and was shot with his own gun. He was indicted for first degree murder.At trial by Orleans Parish grand jury indicted in first degree murder. In December 1981, jury found him guilty as charged at a trial where the principal witness against James was his accomplice, Levon Price. After deliberation, the same jury unanimously recommended that the defendant be sentenced to death. Rightfully so.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, let's go to March 1st, 1996. All these years later, that's 15 years later, Jameswas executed by lethal injection at the Louisiana State Penitentiary, listeners know it as- Jim and Woody: Bloody Angola.Woody: -at the age of 42. The execution team had difficulty locating a vein to insert the catheter into his arm in order to commence the execution. Our hero, Warden Burl Cain requested that James make a fist in order to assist the process. James complied to this request. James declined to give a final statement. However, when Warden Cain later said that James stated, "Bless you," as he was strapped to the execution gurney. His last meal was fried oysters and crab gumbo.Jim: Wow. Good choice. I'd say that. Woody: It made me hunger.Jim: Yeah, dang.Woody: James' execution was the subject of an ABC News documentary on Prime Time Live. In the UK the BBC broadcast a 40-minute piece on April 18th, 1996 on Radio 4 about this case, with particular reference to the role of the British lawyer Clive Stafford Smith in providing adequate defense. So, there you go.Jim: Yeah. Antonio James, we talked about him a little bit on our-- [crosstalk] look, go back and listen to that series, the Burl Cain series, we just wrapped up.Woody: Three or four parts.Jim: Well, it was three parts.Woody: Three parts and then me and Kelly. So, it's four parts. Jim: Yeah. So, the patron, we did an episode with Kelly Jennings. Woody: That's right.Jim: Only available to patron. So go join that patron. Listen to that one. But we discussed Antonio James, and it was interesting. That was the second execution for Burl Cain and the one that he said, "I'm going to do this one right:"Woody: Because the first one-- y'all, go listen to series.Jim: It's really good.Woody: Super powerful. Burl, we're still waiting on you to come on the show, buddy.Jim: You know what I notice about that whole thing? Yes, we are. What I notice about that whole thing is, he's the first one we've come across today that didn't blame it other people.Woody: Yeah, that's right. The first one that didn't-- [crosstalk] Jim: He just said, "God bless, and I'm out."Woody: Yeah, God bless and riding out.Jim: Yeah. At least took it like a man. That's right. So, John Ashley Brown. Let's get to him. John Ashley Brown was executed by lethal injection in April of 1997. I'm going to tell you a little bit about this crime. On the night of the murder, Mr. Laughlin and his wife had eaten dinner at a restaurant near the corner of Dauphine and Touro Streets in New Orleans. Very famous.Woody: Yeah.Jim: Yeah, area of New Orleans. At approximately 11:45 PM, they left the restaurant and began walking to their car, which was located about a block away. Brown exited a nearby vehicle and he confronted the Laughlins. He pinned them against their car, and demanded money from Mr. Laughlin. Mrs. Laughlin screamed and ran back towards the restaurant. When she returned to the scene, her husband was dead.According to NOPD, who had arrived at the location, the victim who had arrived at the location, the victim was found lying face down in the street and bleeding profusely. An autopsy later revealed that Mr. Laughlin had been stabbed 13 times.Woody: It's a lot.Jim: Mrs. Laughlin provided the police with a description of the perpetrator and the vehicle which she had seen him get out of prior to the attack. She also told police that a woman with dark hair had been driving. So, Sergeant James Scott of the NOPD was stopped at a traffic light when heard the description of the crime and saw the suspect being broadcast over the radio. He looked to his left, and there's Brown sitting in a vehicle that matched the description given by the victim's wife. And there was a female at the wheel of the car.Brown's vehicle was pulled into a nearby service station, and Sergeant Scott followed, believing that the occupants of the car might be the suspects. The officer watched as the woman put gasoline in the car while Brown walked over to a water hose and he began washing his hands. He then-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] -blood all over him.Jim: He then re-entered the car. Good point. Sergeant Scott approached the vehicle and ordered Brown to step out and place his hands on the hood, when Brown did so, the police officer observed scratches, marks and droplets of blood on his forearms. He also observed blood between Brown's toes, which were visible through the sandals that he was wearing. In plain view on the floor of the car was a New Orleans shopper's card which belonged to the victim. Wow, the evidence is mounting up, right?Woody: Right.Jimmy: He was arrested, taken into custody, and a search yielded Mr. Laughlin's wallet. A second search pursuant to a properly secured warrant led to the discovery of a Bowie knife which had been concealed underneath the front seat of the car on the passenger side. Mrs. Laughlin positively identified Brown from lineup and basically nailed that, "This is the guy that attacked my husband and killed--"Woody: For those of you who don't know, Bowie knife is a big ass knife.Jim: Yeah. So, obviously, he goes to court, he gets convicted, he gets sentenced to death. And on April 24th, 1997, he was put to death by lethal injection at Bloody Angola. His final words were, "Let my baby sister know I love her and the rest of my family, for supporting me. I love you very much. I'm ready to go now." As he felt the lethal drugs enter his system, Brown stated, “Wow.”Woody: Really?Jim: That's it.Woody: Wow. That's crazy.Jim: Pretty crazy stuff. And those final words, man. But I guess, credit to the guy for not denying it.Woody: Yeah, saying, "You got me bad. Go find the real murderer," and all that shit, right? Jim: Yeah.Woody: And he said, "Wow."Jim: "Wow," when he felt that stuff-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] -saw face of Jesus. Jim: Yeah, it could be.Woody: All right. So, now, y'all, we're going to take you to our next, whatever you want to call him. His name is Willie Watson, and he's a murderer. And not only he is a murderer, he's a rapist and a kidnapper and a robber. This offense took place on April 5th, 1981. And Willie Watson was born in 1951. And he killed a lady, Kathy Newman, who was 25 years old, who was a Tulane University medical student. If you don't know that, if you're not from Louisiana, Tulane is basically the Harvard of the south. He did so by shooting her in St. Charles Parish.On the evening of April 5th, 1981, Willie Watson abducted Kathy Newman, a third-year Tulane University medical student, at gunpoint as she arrived at her apartment building in the Carrollton section of New Orleans. Very familiar with that. Watson forced Newman to drive to an isolated area in St. Charles Parish, which would be towards El Paso, he drove her across the bridge, anyway, where he robbed her of her jewelry and raped and sodomized her. [unintelligible [00:37:42]Watson then instructed Newman to dress herself, and as she did so, he shot her in the back of the head, killing her. Watson later confessed to the murder, stating that he shot Newman because he feared that she could identify him. On June 5th, 1981, Watson was found guilty of first-degree murder. And Willie Watson was executed on July 24th of 1987. Watson was convicted of the kidnapping, rape and murder, like we told you, of Kathy Newman. When they asked if he had any last words, Watson calmly shook his head, "No." Let me read you the article.Jim: Mm, no last words.Woody: This article is from The New York Times. It's right up after execution, dates July 25th, 1987, New York Times. "Willie Watson went calmly and silently to his death in an electric chair of Gruesome Gertie." They didn't say that, y'all, it's me.Jim: [laughs]Woody: "Early today, for the rape, robbery and murder of the Tulane University medical student. He was the sixth murderer executed in Louisiana since early June and the second this week--" [crosstalk]Jim: Wow. They making it happen back in those days.Woody: The student, Kathy Newman, 25 years old was abducted, raped, and shot. Now, not just raped, y'all, sodomize I'll say, also and shot to death in 1981. Mr. Watson, 30, confessed that he killed her, attributing the crime to his drug addiction while an adolescent growing up in New Orleans housing projects. Look, back then they were real and legit projects. Did I ever tell you about that? You could be on where Mike's house is on St. Charles and go two blocks in any direction, they had the project-projects. The big high rises and shit. They had their own New Orleans police authorities for it. It was so bad. They wouldn't go in there in the daytime unless they had three units at a time.Jim: Wow.Woody: But anyway, this is a-- [crosstalk] Jim: So, he grew up rough.Woody: That was rough shit, the concrete jungle. So, the execution, which had been scheduled for midnight, was delayed two hours after the US Supreme Court rejected Mr. Watson's appeal on a 4-to-4 tie vote. And Mr. Watson's lawyers made a last-minute plea to Governor Edwin W. Edwards, my boy, in Baton Rouge, and he refused the final statement. At 1:58 AM, Mr. Watson walked into the death chamber. His head had been shaved of the shoulder-wide afro, because he had a big fur, y'all, hairstyle he had the day before when he appeared at the state Pardon Board in a futile appeal.Asked if he wanted to make a final statement, Mr. Watson shook his head, "No." He was then strapped into the wooden electric chair before his face was masked. Y'all, they do that because the eyes fry out of the head and the scalp will catch on fire. Before his face was masked, he looked at his spiritual adviser, Sister Lee Scardina, and mouthed ''I love you, Sister Lee.'' Then he received the first of four jolts. Remember I told you earlier, hit it, they go, "Hit it. [imitating electric sound]." Turn it off. And they did, "Hit it," four times. Anyway. So, then he received the first of four jolts of electricity at 2:02 AM. He was pronounced dead at 2:09 AM. After it was over, the spiritual adviser went to Jed Stone, Mr. Watson's lawyer, who was outside the death chamber, and cried on his shoulder. Outside the prison, six advocates of the death penalty marched in the darkness.Now, I remember back in those days that basically the neighbor in parish where I grew up and-- Shit, I remember, they were rolling [unintelligible [00:41:39] Governor Evers was in office. My mom was on the parole board, parole and pardon board. Anyway, he was good friends with my dad.Jim: Wow. That was like six minutes, they were jumping.Woody: Yeah, they give him for a minute, turn it off, give him another minute, and then--[crosstalk]Jim: Good. Very good.Woody: Nothing more but fuck you. Jim: Yeah. [crosstalk]Woody: Killed 25-year-old, she was going to be a doctor. He raped her and butt raped her.Jim: Awful. All right, we're going to tell you-- Look, and this one's disturbing, so prepare yourself. But we're going to tell you about Andrew Lee Jones. And he was executed by electrocution on July 22nd of 1991. Tell you about the crime. On February 17th, 1984, 11-year-old Tumekica Jackson was living with her mother, grandparents in the Scotlandville section of Baton Rouge. Tell them about Scotlandville, Woody.Woody: Yeah, I'm just going to tell you. I'm about to do a full-blown episode. I have all the research and everything on this case, and it's bad.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Scotlandville, y'all, it's in north Baton Rouge almost to Baker, what they call Baker, Louisiana, which is really Baton Rouge just runs into Baker. It's all still east Baton Rouge Parish.Jim: Bad part of Baton Rouge.Woody: Yeah, it's-- [crosstalk]Jim: A lot of gang activity in that area. It used to be way back in the day, a decent area.Woody: Decent. Back in this time, it wasn't that bad. But this dude is that bad. Again, Real Life Real Crime original episode, you're going to get all the details, we'll get you.Jim: There you go. So, at 04:00 AM on February 17th of 1984, the grandmother discovered that the child, the 11-year-old Tumekica Jackson was missing from her bedroom. The police discovered that someone had broken the screen of the rear den window and had opened the back door. In the muddy ground, near the house, police obtained a cast of an imprint made by the left shoe from a pair of size 8 1/2 tennis shoes. There were no signs of a struggle inside the house. The investigation immediately focused on Jones because his stormy romantic relationship of several years with the victim's mother. It had been broken off the week prior to this incident. The victim knew Jones well, and he had been in the home many times. On the evening of the child's disappearance, Jones had called the mother's home three times and had told the grandmother that he would not be responsible for his actions,-Woody: Not going to be responsible.Jim: -if the mother continued to refuse to see him. About 6:30 AM, the police went to the apartment where Jones lived with his sister, Terry Jones, and his half-brother, Abraham Mingo. Jones told the police he had been home all night, and Mingo and Ms. Jones confirmed his story. A few hours later, Ms. Jones called the police and said she may have been mistaken about that. After questioning her further, the police obtained a written consent to search the apartment. When no one answered the officer's knock, Ms. Jones used her key to open the door and officers found Jones in the bathroom washing a pair of size 8 1/2 tennis shoes. The bath tub was full of dirt and leaves. The officers seized the tennis shoes and a pair of green gloves, and they requested that Jones give them a statement. After signing a waiver, Jones gave the police a tape-recorded statement in which he denied any knowledge of the offense.Woody: "I don't know nothing."Jim: Lack of evidence, so they had to allow him to leave with his sister. But approximately 06:00 PM, the victim's partially nude body was found in a drainage canal.Woody: In a ditch.Jim: An autopsy established a child had been beaten, raped and manually strangled. The police again questioned Mingo. Although he initially told conflicting stories, he eventually gave a detailed account of his activities with the defendant on Friday night and Saturday morning. According to Mingo, he and Jones were out with the defendant on Friday evening, but dropped him off in Scotlandville. About 1:00 AM, Mingo and Jones went to the Snowflake Lounge, but Jones left alone about 30 minutes later, and Mingo returned to the apartment.Now, at some point between 04:30 AM and 05:00 AM, Mingo was awakened by Jones, he knocked on the door, whereupon he let defendant in and went back to bed. When Mingo and Jones were alone in the apartment later that morning, the defendant told him that he should've stayed home, that he did something he didn't want to do, and that he done fucked up. Jones gave Mingo a TG&Y bag and asked him to throw it away, which he did without looking inside. At Mingo's direction, police recovered a TG&Y bag from a dumpster near a grocery store. The bag contained socks, a pair of blue jeans and a pink sweatshirt, which were wet, muddy and stained. Of course, they put some analysis on that and identified the stain is a mixture of blood and semen fluid.Woody: This is before DNA.Jim: Mingo also told the police about a pair of boxer shorts that he had found in the bathroom of the apartment. The shorts belonged to Mingo, but Jones had worn them on Friday night. Pursuant to Mingo's written consent, the police recovered a pair of stained brown and white boxer shorts. Analysis confirmed the presence of blood and semen fluid on the boxer shorts. On the basis of this information, they finally got a warrant. They arrested Jones. Jones gave a videotape statement in which he asserted that he and Rudolph Springer had gone to the victim's house on Saturday morning to commit a burglary. They were scared of being recognized, so Jones remained in the car while Springer entered the house. When Springer returned carrying the victim, Jones got in the backseat and pulled his cap over his face.After a few minutes, Springer drove Jones to his apartment. That was the last time the defendant saw the victim. That was his story, they didn't buy it. And eventually, he gets sentenced to death.So, he was executed on July 22nd, 1991, by electric chair. While he did not make a final statement, at a pardon board hearing three days before he was executed, he said, "There's a possible chance I did it. A possible chance I didn't do it. If I had not been drunk, nothing like that would have happened. I'm like anybody else. I don't want to die or anything like that." So, that was his statement after that. I hate it when it involves children. It's disgusting.Woody: Yeah, I actually have some more in-depth knowledge on that case. I'm going to bring it to you on a original RLRC episode in the future.Jim: Oh, very good.Woody: He is a real piece of shit. I know of Mingo personally, and I'll explain all that. Jim: I look forward to that, fellas.Woody: Right. Let's take to the next one. John Brogdon. I'm going to give you the facts of the case. On the evening of October 7th, 1981, Rubeta Brown and her 11-year-old sister, Barbara Jo, walked to a convenience store near their home in Luling, Louisiana. Y'all that is in St. Charles Parish. Again, down there in the El Paso area and all that kind of outside NewOrleans, but across the swamp. So, they walked to use the telephone. 19-year old Brogdon and his 17-year old friend, Bruce Perritt, arrived at the store while Rubeta was on the phone.Perritt approached Barbara Jo and put his arm around her. Rubeta called her sister away, and the two left. On the way home, Barbara Jo asked her sister if she could visit a neighbor's home for a few minutes. Rubeta allowed her sister to leave her to do so. Rubeta went to the neighbor's house, about 10 minutes later to pick up Barbara Jo. Barbara Jo wasn't there. And after short search in the neighborhood, Rubeta informed her mother that Barbara Jo was missing. And they called the sheriff's office.After that, a friend of Barbara Jo's came forward to say that he had seen Barbara Jo earlier that evening in a car seated between Brogdon and Perritt. Two men discovered Barbara Jo's body later that evening behind a levee. Again, y'all levee are high dirt walls, usually dirt, sometimes cement, hold back the rivers in the water. But anyway, they saw him behind the levee in Luling. And look, you get no fucking business being behind a levee, period.Jim: Yeah, especially in Luling.Woody: Right. Perritt's car was found parked a short distance away. Two other men later informed authorities that they had seen Brogdon and Perritt walking on the road near this levee. Brogdon was without a shirt and appeared disheveled. Brogdon and Perritt were arrested that evening at Brogdon's home on suspicion of Barbara Jo's murder. After being informed of his Miranda rights at the sheriff's office, Brogdon waived his right to counsel and confessed to the murder and aggravated rape of Barbara Jo. In his statement, Brogdon told how he and Perritt tortured and killed her. Instead of visiting the mother's home that night, Barbara Jo had returned to the convenience store and met with Brogdon and Perritt. The confession-- Well, that's their story, y'all. Confession admitted that after they picked her up at the convenience store, Brogdon and Perritt drove her to the levee where her body was later found.They repeatedly raped her and forced her to perform oral sex on them. All during these acts, they beat Barbara Jo with their fists. They also broke bottles on the cement and then stabbed her repeatedly with the edges. Perritt also struck Barbara Jo in the head with a brick that he found lay nearby. Brogdon then beat her with the brick. The two also used pointed sticks to pierce her body. Brogdon and Perritt left the scene of the crime and Perritt's vehicle when they heard another car approached and they hauled ass in Perritt's vehicle.Brogdon was convicted by St. Charles jury of murder and aggravated rape and sentenced to death. So he was executed on July 30, 1987. Brogdon and his co-defendant Bruce Perritt were convicted of raping, beating. We told you about all that. Perritt received a life sentence, y'all, because the jury deadlocked in the penalty phase. I don't know what fucking--Jim: Some juror. Yeah.Woody: -idiots on that jury. Brogdon made no formal final statement. As he turned to seathimself in the electric chair, his last words were, "God bless y'all." It's crazy, right? Jim: Horrible.Woody: We do some really uplifting stories. We've done some great, great shit. But sometimes, you got to let it be known. Wow.Jim: How the cow eats a cabbage.Woody: Right. [crosstalk] -the worst fucking place in the world.Jim: Yeah. These people that are getting executed are not always angels. Woody: They did everything to that girl. Poor-- [crosstalk]Jim: Blind woman. That's just awful. Thank y'all so much for supporting us. We hope y'all enjoyed this episode. We've got a Part 3 that we'll drop at some point that you'll really like as well. But we just thank y'all for all you do for us.Woody: Definitely patron members, hope you're enjoying your commercial free, early releases, and all your bonus episodes, and everything else. And you want to be a patron member, you can go to patreon.com, type in Bloody Angola.Jim: Yes. And it'll pull it right up.Woody: Follow us on Facebook, and look for Bloody Angola announcements and everything Real Life Real Crime, including Real Life Real Crime app, and follow our other show, Real Life Real Crime Daily, [crosstalk] me and Mike Agovino.Jim: Yeah, absolutely.Woody: Original Real Life Real Crimes like the one I'm going to tell you about with Mingoinvolved in it. It drops on Tuesdays as of now, y'all. Jim: Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Everton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: Complete story of America's bloodiest prison.Jim and Woody: Peace.[Bloody Angola theme]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, We wrap up the Death chamber covering the stories of those inmates eventually executed at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, from the crimes to their final walk.#Louisianastateprison #AngolaPrison #BloodyAngola #TrueCrime #Podcast #WoodyOverton #Podcasts #Deathchamberpart3 #deathchamber #Execution #ConvictOur Sponsors for this episode have a great deal for you!GET 16 FREE MEALS PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!DEATH CHAMBER PART 3 FULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. And welcome back to Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. I got something to say before we get started.Jim: Yes.Woody: We are nominated under the People's Choice Podcast Awards for 2023 under the History section.Jim: Love it.Woody: We're nominated as one of the best in the world. We need y'all to, please, go and vote. It's podcastawards.com. And they'll have you enter in your email and a password, and that's to stop people from cheating the bots. But you can enter as many times as you want to from different emails, and then they'll send you a confirmation email. But right underneath that, when you fill it in, they ask you, "Would you be a final judge?" So, what happens is this process, when it closes at the end of this month, they're going to take the top 10 in each category that make the finals and then like 20,000 of the people that vote it, they're going to randomly select them to be final judges. And so, if you would check that you'll be a final judge. You don't have to judge in every category, and you don't have to vote in every category, but you do that and you go under it.And I've been nominated and Kelly Jennings has been nominated for Unspeakable, our Dear Friend for the Adam Curry's People's Choice Podcast Year Award. I've been nominated for best male host in the world for Real Life Real Crime. Both Kelly and I have been nominated under Best True Crime. Real Life Real Crime and Real Life Real Crime Daily, and original Real Life Real Crime nominated under drama and storytelling. And you can also fill out the most influential podcaster, you could do that also. Oh, and Bloody Angola is nominated under the-- we found out last night that Bloody Angola is also nominated under the The Adam Curry's People's Choice, which is the biggest one, y'all, of the year award. So, thank you so much and we love y'all. Voting is going to close in the next--Jim: 31st.Woody: Yeah, 31st. Huge honor for Bloody. Bloody deserves it. And it's a history podcastbasically. I mean, we're telling you the history of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: That's right.Woody: And so, thank you so much. It's such an honor and I know it's a pain in the ass to take the time to go do that, but it really validates what we're doing and gives us a shot in the arm and-Jim: Helps us to bring you more.Woody: -help us to keep going and bring more content to you. And speaking of that, our Patreon members, thank you so much. We appreciate you. You rock. Couldn't do the show without you. And, y'all, look, how old are we now?Jim: You know, Woody, that's a good question.Woody: It seems like it's been forever but in a good way.Jim: Yeah. I think we're coming up on our year.Woody: Yeah, it's got to be close to the year. I mean, like real close. Jim: I have to look that up next episode, I'll tell y'all.Woody: Very sweet to be nominated for both at The Adam Curry's People's Choice Award and then under the History section. It's just a real, real testament to what we're doing and that y'all love the show. So, thank you so much.Jim: 100%, and History, both Woody and I are big history buffs and so that's a cool category for us to be nominated in. It's different. Both of us have been nominated for other podcasts that we did in the past. But this is kind of a cool one because we both just love history, and we know all y'all do too.Woody: This is our first one that we've done it together. Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, it means a lot to me too.Jim: Absolutely. Me as well. And so, we're going to get into-- we brought you a couple of episodes with Death Chamber talking about these guys telling a little bit about their crimes and their executions and all that. And this is a continuance of that. This will be the final Death Chamber that we cover. I want to say this before we start for our patron members, we're going to do a bonus episode with the true final Death Chamber, which is the last few that we're not going to cover right now here. But after we're done with this, keep in mind, we've pretty much covered all the people since 1980 that have been executed via Gruesome Gertie or lethal injection at Angola.So, we're going to go ahead and start it up and we're going to tell you first about Alvin Moore. He was executed by electrocution in 1987. I'm going to tell you a little bit about his case. And it starts with Aron Wilson. So, Aron Wilson and his wife Jo Ann and their four-month-old daughter, Regina, lived in Bossier City, Louisiana. Alvin Moore was a former neighbor and coworker of Aron's at the Veterans Administration Hospital there. On July 9th of 1980, Moore picked up Arthur Lee Stewart, Jr, and Dennis Sloan in his automobile. So, they're riding around, and at some point, Moore goes to the Wilsons' house, and he decides he wants to get some money. They apparently supposedly owed him some money. So according to Sloan, who was with him, Moore knocked on the door and Jo Ann Wilson answered it. She and Moore talked briefly, and Moore entered the house. Five minutes later, Sloan followed Moore to the door of the house. The door was slightly ajar, and Sloan saw Moore and Jo Ann making sex, as he would call it, on the floor of the living room.Woody: Really?Jim: Sloan returned to Moore's automobile, and he was going to tell Stewart about it, what was going on, of course. "Man, they're in there doing it on the floor." Stewart and Sloan thenentered the house. Moore and a crying Ms. Wilson had gone into the bedroom. She's crying. Yeah. Where baby Regina was also crying. Moore was going crazy, ransacking the house. Jo Ann Wilson was described as panicky and scared. She also appeared to be frightened of Moore. So, Sloan, in testimony, said that Jo Ann Wilson said, "Take whatever you want. Just get out of my house." Sloan also testified that Ms. Wilson asked Moore not to hurt her or her child. After being threatened, Ms. Wilson gave Moore a box of Kennedy half dollars. Sloan took a white bucket with $18.80 in pennies. And Stewart took some stereo components. This is back in the days when they had the--Woody: Yeah, when [crosstalk] had the Hi-Fi.Jim: Exactly. Sloan and Stewart left the house and heard Jo Ann Wilson screaming behind them. Moore runs out of the house five minutes later, he's carrying a knife in his hand. Stewart testified that this was the same knife that Moore had on the backseat of his car when the group drove up to the house. Moore told Stewart and Sloan, "I'm fixing to trip y'all out. I stabbed that bitch nine times." The three then drove to Church's Fried Chicken and McDonald's. Jo Ann Wilson--Woody: Paid in pennies, probably.Jim: Yeah. Jo Ann Wilson managed to call 911. The call was received by the Bossier City Police Department. A unit got dispatched and a patrolman arrives at the house two minutes later. He knocked on the front door, but Jo Ann Wilson said she was unable to open it. He kicked the door in and found blood, of course, all over the living room. Officer Fields found Ms. Wilson lying in the bedroom and both rooms were in disarray. The victim was nude from the waist down, was bleeding from her vagina, chest and arms. She was having difficulty breathing and told Officer Fields she was dying. He asked her who stabbed her, and she responded, Alvin. Fields asked her that was the patrolman if she knew Alvin. And she replied he was a black guy that used to live down the street. It was obvious to Fields that Ms. Wilson was dying and she died about ten minutes later. So, they go, they arrest Moore at 01:00 AM the next morning. Of course, they find those stereo components we told you about, the white bucket and pennies were found in the trunk of his car.So, they had all the evidence there. He goes through trials, he's found guilty, and he was executed in 1987. Moore made no final statement to the public. His attorney said his last words were to him, in which he said, "They can kill my body, but they can't kill my soul."Woody: You better hope your soul was right.Jim: Yeah, your soul might be headed somewhere you don't want to be. Woody: You were playing God when you killed your victim.Jim: That's right.Woody: You raped her and stabbed her and all that. It's crazy. These stories, y'all, are disturbing. But you know what? These are death penalty cases. And there's a reason we have the death penalty. Some people don't deserve to breathe.I'm going to tell you about Benjamin Berry. On January 30th, 1978, Benjamin Berry and David Pennington drove from Baton Rouge to Metairie, which is about a 40, 45-minute drive, Metairie being on the outskirts in New Orleans, y'all, with the intention of robbing the Metairie Bank and Trust Company. Berry entered the bank and drew a 9mm automatic pistol, and there was an exchange of gunfire between Berry and Cochran. Now, Cochran was aJefferson Parish deputy sheriff working as a guard in the bank. Y'all, that's a common thing. They work extra duty is what it's called, their side jobs.When they started shooting, Berry fired three shots, and Cochran fired one shot. Cochran's shot struck Berry in the lower left chest. Then, two of Berry's shots struck Cochran in the shoulder and the neck, causing Cochran to die. Berry and Pennington fled the scene and hauled ass back to Baton Rouge, where they were both arrested. Now, Berry was indicted for first degree murder. So goes through, and naturally, he gets found guilty. I don't know what type of surveillance cameras they had in '78, January 30--Jim: Probably not too great.Woody: But you got a lot of eyewitnesses, and I'm sure they did whatever, because death penalty cases, they have to have a lot of shit. But he was indicted for murder, found guilty, and Benjamin Berry was executed on June 7th, 1987. So, what, nine years after. And Berry was convicted in the fatal shooting of Robert Cochran, JPSO deputy I told y'all about. And guess what, Jim? He made no final statement, but I'm going to read y'all an article from the New York Times, dated June 8th, 1987. It says, "A high school dropout condemned for murder in a guard and a bank robbery was put to death early today in Louisiana's electric chair."Jim: Oh, Gruesome Gertie.Woody: Gruesome Gertie. "'Benjamin Berry, 31 years old, was executed shortly after midnight,' said C. Paul Phelps, Secretary of Department of Corrections in Baton Rouge. He was the 76th prisoner executed in the United States and the 8th in Louisiana since the United States Supreme Court allowed states to restore the death penalty in 1976. Mr. Berry's appeals ran out late Friday when the Supreme Court refused to stop the execution." And old buddy of mine and dear friend of my dad, good, bad, and different, and my mom served on the parole board underneath him, Governor Edwin W. Edwards refused to pardon him and he wouldn't step in. Apparently, Mr. Berry had already accepted that his sentence would not be stayed. And on Thursday, he asked the warden of state prison in Angola to move him off the death row to the isolation cell down the hall from the electric chair so he could be alone.""Mr. Berry was convicted in 1978 of killing Robert Cochran, a bank guard in a bank robbery in Metairie on January 30th, 1978. This was his 8th execution date. The others had been canceled by appeals. He spent Saturday visiting members of his family. The prison warden, Hilton Butler, said about 30 people held a candlelight vigil in front of the governor's mansion in Baton Rouge to protest the execution, and roughly a dozen people gathered for similar protests in New Orleans. Several death penalty supporters gathered outside the prison's front gate. They wore shirts lettered with the message "Justice for All, Even the Victims." The execution was the first of five scheduled in Louisiana and the next two weeks, and the first in the state since January 4th, 1985."Jim: Wow.Woody: Governor Edwards didn't play. He's like, "You want a what? Ride the lightning,bitch."Jim: And I heard you say Hilton Butler--[crosstalk]Woody: We talked about Ms. Ann before and everything, and my mama knows them all. Well, they grew up in St. Francisville wherever they live-- I think they still live there-- When I was in school, they were still living there.Jim: I believe they still do. As a matter of fact, the son of Hilton Butler is a listener of Bloody Angola.Woody: Shoutout.Jim: Who was also lifelong Angola employed correctional officer and has reached out to usa few times, mainly fact checking. [laughter]Woody: That's cool because the history doesn't mean-- everything that comes out of books isn't always right. It's definitely not as valid as the people who lived it.Jim: That's right. We'd love to have him on the show, I know you're listening.Woody: Absolutely. Shoutout to you. Hey, shoutout to all you correctional officers at BloodyAngola in the past, current, and the wardens and everybody else.Jim: Yeah. A lot of them listen to us and they do reach out and let us know.The next guy we're going to tell you about is David Dene Martin. And he was a killer of four, minimum here. He killed these four people in Terrebonne Parish.Woody: Terrebonne down south.Jim: Down south. And he was executed by electrocution in 1985 as well. So, a lot of 85s inthere. And we're going to give you the facts of the case.In 1977, David Martin's wife, Gloria, began to work in a restaurant lounge owned by Bobby Todd, who was a victim. The next day, she had sexual relations with Todd. That's not good. The following day, she informed her husband of this fact. She refused Martin's request that she quit working for Todd. So basically, she goes home, says, "I'm sleeping with my boss." And he says, "Well, you got to quit." And she says, "Nah. I'm not going to quit."Woody: Keep my benefits.Jim: Yeah. That night, Martin goes and he steals a friend's Colt Python .357 Mag.Woody: That's a bad pistol. Yeah, second largest-- It used to be the second largest caliber in the world.Jim: So to make matters worse, the firearm was loaded with hollow point bullets, and Martin later purchased an additional box of shells for it. On August 13--Woody: Shit, it's a revolver, how many bullets do you need? Jim: Yeah. Mike said he's going to kill him good.Woody: Kill him good.Jim: That's what Mike would say. On August 13th, Martin visited his next-door neighbor, Raymond Rushing, and Martin told Rushing he was going to shoot Todd. He explained that he was jealous of his wife's relationship with Todd. On August 14th of that year, Martin told another friend, Chester Golden, that his wife was working at the restaurant and would not quit. He indicated that he had a bone to pick with Todd and had waited for the last two nightsoutside Todd's restaurant for an opportunity to get Todd. So, he's telling everybody about this. Martin showed Golden the stolen pistol. He told Golden that because he stole the gun from a felon, its theft would not be reported.Woody: True.Jim: Golden told Martin that he looked pretty drug out and had lost weight. Martin replied that he had been up for two nights and had not been eating. That evening, according to accounts he later gave, Martin drove to the vicinity of the trailer in which Todd lived. He parked down the road from the trailer so he could approach it in the guise of a hitchhiker on foot. So, he's pretending like he's hitchhiking. He entered the trailer, and he confronted Todd who offered him a roll of bills. "Here, let me give you some money."Woody: [crosstalk] -makes up for banging your wife?Jim: Yeah. Martin, he ignored that. He basically said, "I just want you to know my name."Then, he shoots Todd twice in the chest.Woody: Wow.Jim: He proceeded to shoot three other people in the trailer. Woody: Wow.Jim: Todd's bodyguard, he had a bodyguard, and two nude females. Woody: What?Jim: They must have been doing something in there. [crosstalk] Come in, yeah. So, Martin inflicted multiple bullet wounds on each of those four. One of the women was first wounded in the abdomen. She told Martin she was in pain, begging him to finish her. He shot her in the head and killed her.Woody: Wow.Jim: Martin then took the roll of money to make it look like a robbery and left. Around 08:00 PM, he returns to Golden's home. He was excited. He asked Golden, he says, "Take a ride with me." During the ride, he tells Golden, "I killed four people at the restaurant." Martin said he had not touched anything, and although the authorities might suspect him, they had no proof that he committed those, although the fact that he told 1500 people. Martin confessed to four more people that night. He had told one of them, Pamela Wilson, that he had thrown the gun in the bayou. Martin was arrested a short time later. The sheriff who made the arrest told reporters that Martin appeared strung out on dope at the time, probably was. Martin's brother retained a Texas attorney with 10 years' criminal experience and some experience with capital cases. The attorney associated a Louisiana lawyer with limited criminal experience and no experience in capital offenses.Woody: Most of the times, big shot attorneys come out of state, because they're not licensed to practice under Napoleonic code of law, they have to get local representation, and then they can take over the case and act under that guy's license.Jim: Yeah. There you go. And that is definitely what happened here. And using the words, "Walk me or fry me," Martin told counsel in the first meeting to either seek a full acquittal or the death penalty. So, how do you like that? "Walk me or fry me." He didn't want to spend time in jail, in other words.Woody: I got kind of respect for that, actually.Jim: So, they decided to fry him. And David Martin was executed on January 4th, 1985. He was convicted, obviously, of all four of those murders. That's quadruple murder, y'all. All of them, of course, being shot to death. And that mobile home, in case you're curious, that was near a town called Homa, which is way down south.Woody: [crosstalk] -down south actually, I drive through it every couple of weeks to go fishing.Jim: Yeah. And he was for sure a drug addict, that came out during his trial. He made no final statement during his execution but a pardon board clemency hearing the afternoon before his death, Martin said, "To take someone's life is out of character for me. It's not David Martin. I am devastated of what I'm done, but I can't remember it. My life has been dedicated to saving lives, helping people, not destroying people. I know I wouldn't willingly take another person's life. Something bad went down, but it's not me. It wasn't right. I don't know. That's all." That's what he said.Woody: Hey, idiot, you didn't just take one, you took four. That's a really, really interesting point. One of the mitigating circumstances in any death penalty case in the series I'm starting next week, I'm not going to give the name up yet. It's death penalty cases. And I don't get this, and I don't understand and maybe they changed the law or something, but if you're high and you commit a death penalty infraction, if you will, then they can use that in a death penalty phase to get you off. I don't get that. I believe you chose to get fucking high, and whatever you did after that, you're still responsible for it.Jim: Yeah. And another thing with that case is, and I notice this with a lot of cases, when you have a crime of passion of some sort, and even though this wasn't against-- was because of his wife, it wasn't against his wife. But it seems like these killings are more overboard. They're overkill, if you will.Woody: He can't say he didn't plan it out because he bought bullets and he stole the gun. He told everybody.Jim: Told everybody.Woody: And I don't care how high you were, you weren't high for that long. But certainly raises some questions when-- not victim shaming or blaming, but homie had two bodyguards-- and two bodyguards?Jim: Well, he had a bodyguard, two new females with him.Woody: It must have been a titty bar or some-- I don't know. Shame that happened. Hedidn't give any final last words, just to the pardon board.Jim: Yeah, just to the pardon board. Nothing at the actual execution itself.Woody: Yeah, well, very interesting. I did not know about the case. I may have to look into it some more one day. I have some good friends down there. And anytime you have something, especially from-- and Homa is not that small now, but an older crime like this, scenario like that, you can go to that town and find somebody that's of that age range and they'd be like, "Holy shit, I can tell you everything."Jim: Oh, yeah. [crosstalk]Woody: All right, let me take it to the next one. Ernest Knighton. Ernest Knighton, y'all, he was from Bossier Parish-- or the crime occurred in Bossier Parish, and Jim talked on the first one at Bossier Parish and Shreveport, they're just right across the river from each other, y'all. Literally, the river separates the two. And it's in the far northwestern corner of the state of Louisiana. Literally, when you leave Shreveport, I think it's like 15, 20 miles to the Texas line. But let me tell you about Ernest Knighton. And the facts are taken from the testimony of Mrs. Shell, who was the victim's wife, and are as follows.Mr. and Mrs. Shell were working at the Fina Station on Benton and Shed Road in Bossier City between 8:00 and 8:30 PM. The defendant and another man, Anthony White, entered the station. White asked for a package of cigarettes and gave Mrs. Shell a dollar bill. This tells you how long ago, y'all, this was-- it was murder, it was on March 17th, 1981, I was 11. I don't know if I was smoking yet, but I was probably getting really close. Dollar a pack, saying about right on the price. Anyway, he gave Mrs. Shell the dollar bill. When she returned his change, so they were even cheaper than a dollar, he walked around the service counter and told her, "This is a stick-up." Holding a gun, the defendant also went behind the counter and asked Mr. Shell where the money was kept. Ms. Shell, who had been talking on the telephone, went into the small room in the back of the station to retrieve the money and gave it to the defendant who had followed him into the room. Mrs. Shell heard a shot, Mr. Shell was wounded.From her location, Mrs. Shell could not actually see her husband but said that he offered no resistance and said nothing to provoke defendant into shooting him. The defendant then ran out and told White to bring Mrs. Shell along with him. Anthony White grabbed Mrs. Shell who broke loose at the doorway, and retreated back inside the station and locked the door which then separated her from the two thieves. Mr. Shell died as a result of shock from blood loss from a single gunshot wound through the arm, abdomen, and chest. That's a hell of a shot.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Arm, abdomen, and chest. Maybe he was standing above him-- Jim: Somebody's-- like the John F. Kennedy [crosstalk] went into-- Woody: The magic bullet.Jim: The governor--Woody: He had to be above him or something, maybe he's getting out of the safe. That's the only way you can get that angle. That's crazy. Additional testimony by Wanda Smith, a woman who had driven with defendant, Anthony White and another man, Wayne Harris, to the Fina station, revealed that the defendant and White ran from the service station, jumped into the car, and had Wanda Smith drive to a motel and get a room. There, an argument over the money began. And waving the gun he used to shoot Mr. Shell, Earnest Knighton stated in Wanda's presence that, "The man's hand looked like it was fixing to move, so I had to shoot him." Y'all, that all comes from the trial, and naturally, he was found guilty.Ernest Earnest Knighton, Jr. was executed on October 30th, 1984. Knighton was convicted of the shooting of death of Ralph Shell, a Bossier City service station proprietor, during an attempted robbery on March 17th, 1981. I want you to notice how fast these executions were. This is three years. And the longest one we did today was nine years. Now, they don't execute them anymore. We've covered the people have been on death row 28 years plus years like that. Fuck that, they just need to kill them.So, they get Knighton into Gruesome Gertie, strap him down, and we told y'all about the tie-down teams and all that, and basically drug them in, strapped them down and they say, "Hey, dude--" they didn't say dude, they read the death warrant.Jim: No, they might have. [chuckles]Woody: Yeah, right. They read the death warrant. "You've been sentenced to death by the State of Louisiana, da, da, da. Do you have any final words?" And this is what he said. He said, "I am sorry. More sorry than I can say Mr. Shell is dead and that I am responsible. I feel sorry for Mrs. Shell and all of Mr. Shell's family and friends. I feel sorry for my mother, my family, and everyone else who will grieve for me. I have asked God to forgive me. I have to say that what you are doing is wrong. If I thought my death would bring back Mr. Shell or save someone else from a murder, I would volunteer. But I know it won't work. You don't teach respect for life by killing. I urge you not to kill anyone else. I ask God to forgive you for killing me. And I now ask God in the name of Jesus to receive my spirit."Jim: He had me on the first part, lost me on the second. Woody: I know, right?Jim: I'm glad he took responsibility and admitted.Woody: And when he started in on the "I forgive you for killing me," they're doing their job, dude. They didn't make you go into that bank and rob them and all that. I don't know, but at least he tried to say something. But let's talk about the death penalty for a minute. When I was in college and studying criminal justice, they talked about criminal deterrence. How do you stop crime? The ultimate one being the death penalty. But the studies have proven, for a crime deterrent to be effective, it has to be swift and certain. Meaning that if you leave here today and you go and Lori Johnson, best banging chick in the world, Hancock Whitney, right down the street, that's where I do all my shit. But if you go in that bank and you kill someone, you're on camera, you're going to get convicted, etc. But nowadays, you're going to go sit for 28 years and appeals on death row and all that, it's not effective as a deterrent.Now, let's take it we don't live in this world, let's put you in Woody's world. If you walked in the bank and you did it, and they caught your ass and they put you to the nearest tree and strung you the fuck up, that's going to stop the normal person. A lock keeps an honest man honest. That would certainly deter people more than what you do now because even like the Manson murderers, dude got out of prison yesterday, or the chick got out of prison yesterday. But it has to be swift and certain. The problem with our justice system is it is nothing if not slow.Jim: Yeah. The wheels of justice turn slow, as they say, and I agree 100%. And they have a lot of technology now that they didn't have then. Look, we have another series that we do every now and then that talks about exonerations, and certainly those happen. Certainly, you never want to think about people being sentenced to death that did not commit a crime, but it's happened.Woody: I'm sure it's happened. Well, they probably committed some crime. It's not that one.Jim: Right. So, it certainly does happen. But the good thing about technology these days is it's almost impossible to get away with something very long like it used to be. And I think about serial killers in particular because DNA has come so far. You almost can't breathe on somebody without being able to figure out who it was.Woody: And when I started, we couldn't even get DNA done, but I'll take it a step further and it trips me out, because I think about it every day, everywhere I go, because of what you told me. And that is that you're on camera up to--Jim: It's like 46 times per day on average.Woody: On average. So, everywhere you go, you're on camera. But now, that's 46 average. If you go somewhere and you're showing your ass, look how many videos are going viral. Everybody wants to shoot a video and post shit. Not only advances in technology and DNA and forensics, and the familial DNA, and just everything. The computers they use to reenact crime scenes, and trace the bullets and everything else, all this technology as it gets better, but you also have all these cameras and people are more aware. And you have social media now which, shit, you didn't have back in 80s. The internet wasn't invented.Jim: Yeah. When you're looking for a suspect, the sheriff's office can just post that on social media and automatically thousands and thousands of people see it. Back in the day, when Woody was doing cases, you had to go door to door sometimes.Woody: You had to go to door every time, and you waited and you had to haul ass. I can tell you so many cases that I had to haul ass to Channel 2, Channel 33, and Channel 9 to get them the press release before they went on air at 6 o'clock or 10 o'clock, or whatever, just before Fox was even in Baton Rouge. That was it. That's all you had. And you only have a small percentage of the population that watches the fucking news, the local news.Jim: Yeah. Great point.Woody: And I agree with you, certainly we don't want anybody to be wrongfully executed. And we've talked about and given shoutouts on the stories that people who have been exonerated. But as the technology advances, as the DNA advances, so do the crimes, and the defenses for the crimes, meaning that there's no more respect for life. Everybody just thinks you pull the trigger and there's no consequence. They have never worked a homicide scene. They've never had to sit with a crying family and all that. But more importantly, the defense, because all these trials and all these cases have come in years before, these lawyers are learning about it in law school. And if you choose to do the criminal path, you're going to know about it. And all these cases have been cited. So, you have volumes and volumes and volumes of more information, just like the DNA is so far advanced now and all these other crime fighting techniques, the defense has so many more techniques to use against prosecution. And that's why we got people, like one guy who's the second longest living on death row, and damn it, I can't remember his name, he and his lover murdered that little boy and raped him right here-- [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. You did a--Woody: -on the river. And I did a story on that, but he's been on death row like 29 years now. The other dude, his accomplice was on death row, fuck, he died of natural causes. This dude's like 80 years old now, something like that. So, it is what it is. And we want to bring y'all this series. And Jim's got one more, and then the [unintelligible 00:38:50] series will be locked up for patron members.Jim: Patron members. So, we're going to tell you about Elmo Sonnier. Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. And many of you, it may click, and we'll tell you after we do this particular segment and why it did click for you. And Elmo Sonnier was executed in 1984 by electrocution, Gruesome Gertie. Give you the facts of the case.On the evening of November 4, 1977, David LeBlanc, who was 16, and Loretta, and Bourque, who was 18, attended a high school football game. Later that evening, the couple, they go park in a remote area in St. Martin Parish. Look, back in those days, that was parking. You take your girlfriend, and you go somewhere and you make out a little bit.Woody: [crosstalk] LSU lakes and call it the submarine races.Jim: [laughs]Woody: "What are you doing here, son?" "Watching submarine races."Jim: Watching submarine races, yeah. So, they go parking, I guess you could say. That area of St. Martin Parish, it was kind of like a lover's lane. That's kind of where everybody-- it was pretty little lake and the girls would feel romantic. I think it was romantic or whatnot. Later that night, approximately 01:00 AM, Elmo Patrick and Eddie James Sonnier were rabbit hunting together, and they come across a couple's car. Rabbit hunting at night, huh, Woody?Woody: Yeah, right. That's not legal.Jim: Yeah. [laughs] Using a badge one of the brothers had obtained while working as a security guard and both armed with .22 caliber rifles, the two approach and enter LeBlanc's car. The victims were informed they were trespassing and that they would have to be brought to the landowner to determine if that landowner wanted to press charges. This is young kids. So, they believe that. They also confiscate each teen's driver's license to kind of further their act of, "We are the cops." Ms. Bourque and Mr. LeBlanc were then handcuffed and placed in the back seat of their own car.Woody: And they brought handcuffs too.Jim: Brought handcuffed, which tells you, [crosstalk] this wasn't their first rodeo. Leaving their own car behind, the Sonnier brothers take the teens' car and they basically drive the couple 21 miles to a remote oilfield located in Iberia Parish. And Iberia Parish, this is oilfield country. Everybody just about in Iberia Parish works in the oilfields.Woody: Except for Tabasco.Jim: Yeah, except for Tabasco. That's right. The other famous Iberia employer. Now, this is an area that was well known to the defendants. Once at the oilfield, both victims were removed from the car. David LeBlanc was taken into the woods, and they handcuffed him to a tree. Loretta Bourque was taken a short distance away, and she was raped by Elmo Sonnier. She then reluctantly agreed to have intercourse with Eddie Sonnier on the condition that they will release her and Mr. LeBlanc afterwards. Upon completion of the rapes, Patrick Sonnier removed the handcuffs and brought them back to the road where they were parked. At that point, Patrick Sonnier told his brother, he starts freaking out, and he says, "I'm going to be sent back to Angola," that's the exact quote, he had done some time in Angola, should the victims notify police. So, David LeBlanc, Loretta Bourque, were then forced to lie side by side, face down, and each were shot three times at close range in the back of the head. So, execution style, pretty much.The Sonniers then drove LeBlanc's vehicle back to the original site where the couple was first accosted in order to pick up their own vehicle. Remember, they left that at the scene.They get there and the car has a flat tire. The brothers use a jack from the LeBlanc's vehicle, and this is important. They use that jack to apply a spare tire. And that jack was later seized by police from the trunk of Sonnier's car. So, there's your evidence. These two rocket scientists use a jack.Woody: And then, put it in the--[crosstalk]Jim: In their own car, yeah. Dumbass. The brothers then destroyed the victim's driver's license. And the following day, the rifles, they dispose of those, they actually buried them in remote areas. Investigations also revealed that between $30 and $40 were stolen from the victims prior to the arrest. They noticed this money missing, and of course, they tied that back to them. The Sonniers were arrested on December 5th 1977, following a tip from a local man who reported seeing the blue Dodge Dart parked in a remote area during the early morning hours of November 5th. They were advised of their rights, taken to the sheriff's office in New Iberia. And there, Patrick Sonnier, he starts singing like a canary, signs, verbal and written confessions, and was transferred to the parish prison. While en route, he starts making other statements to the officer. So, he's singing. The following day, he even agrees to let him videotape a confession. And all three statements indicated that Patrick had participated in the abduction and had personally shot them.The police, after the basic directions from Patrick Sonnier, recovered the two rifles that he buried. Ballistic test indicated that the bullets taken from the victim's head and brass casings were from that actual rifle. So, they've got everything they need. The defendant and his brother, they get indicted on two accounts of first-degree murder. And in 1978, they basically go to court. Of course, they plead not guilty because they have nothing to lose, but they do get convicted, and they get executed. I'm going to read you just a Times-Picayune, which Times-Picayune is the--Woody: Major newspaper from New Orleans. Jim: Right. Huge, huge newspaper there. Woody: New Orleans and Mississippi area.Jim: And in 1984, they got executed. Sonnier gets executed for that double murder. And this is Elmo Sonnier. He was convicted of the slayings of Loretta Bourque and her fiancé, David LeBlanc. He was the third person executed in Louisiana in four months at that time. Robert Wayne Williams was executed December 14th for killing a Baton Rouge supermarket guard. And he was the first person executed since 1961. So, there was a big delay between '61 and--Woody: Yeah, they put the moratorium on it.Jim: Yeah. So basically, when they got out of that moratorium, they started executingeverybody. We got some people waiting in line. Woody: Tired of feeding you.Jim: That's right. And at that time, Woody and listeners, Ross Maggio was the warden at Angola. And he said that Sonnier spent his last day with Sister Helen Prejean, a New Orleans nun who served as a spiritual advisor and a female friend who was a lawyer but not involved in his case. The condemned man ate a steak dinner and was kept up to date as the five courts turned down his 11th hour pleas of stay. So, when you get executed, you basically, that last 24 hours of spent by your attorneys trying to get everyone to stay your execution. So, he didn't have any of that and they went on with it.As he was led to the execution chamber, he looked at LeBlancs, and Mr. LeBlanc, the father basically of LeBlanc that was shot and killed. He says, "I can understand the way you feel. I have no hatred in my heart as I leave this world and I ask God to forgive what I have done." He then asked LeBlanc for forgiveness. Immediately after, Godfrey Bourque, the father of the other victim, who also witnessed, said, "He didn't ask me," which is-- he obviously and rightfully felt offended for that.Both fathers sat expressionless with their arms crossed as the execution was carried out. They declined to talk to reporters afterwards. Sonnier last words were addressed to Prejean. He said, "I love you," and she replies, "I love you too." Sonnier, wearing blue jeans and a blue shirt, was then strapped to the death chair. Witnesses said he appeared to be smiling. At 12:07, his body was jolted with 2000 volts-Woody: Light it up.Jim: -of electricity, followed by 500 volts for 10 seconds. The 2000 volts was for 20. The sequence was repeated, and there was no movement after the second jolt. So, as Woody has told us in the past on this show, they don't just lift that lever and jolt you one time. They leave it up, pull it down, leave it up, pull it down.Woody: And 20 seconds is a long time.Jim: It's a long time, man. But his victims didn't even get that last 20 seconds. Sick.Woody: Can you imagine laying side by side and you pretty much know they're going to kill you, but then you hear three shots from one rifle and whoever the boy or the girl got shot first, what was the other one thinking? I mean, you know you're dead.Jim: Yeah. You went to your death scared to death. And that's just horrible. And so, you may have obviously, recognized Helen Prejean if you've listened to our show. These brothers, the Sonnier brothers, as well as Robert Wayne Williams, that was the character for Dead Man Walking, basically, where they based that character was really off of two separate people. In the opening scenes of Dead Man Walking, that's where it shows that lover's lane murder that we just told you about. And so, it was a real deal, Sister Helen Prejean, real person, she's still alive to this day. And regardless of where you sit on the death penalty, her heart's in the right place. I don't fault her. We may not see eye to eye on certain things, but I think she's a wonderful human being and still alive to this day.Woody: Yeah, she is. We'd love to have you on the show.Jim: Yeah. If you happen to be listening, Sister Prejean, we'd love to have you on and shareyour views.Woody: If one of y'all listeners know her, yeah, that would be a great show.Jim: Yeah, it really would. So, if you know her out there and get word to her that we love-- we come to her if she needs us to, no problem. And so, that is a wrap on that series. For you patron members, just a few that we're going to do just for you guys. The final, I think it's four or five that we have left to feature on that series just for you guys. And we saved some good ones for you patron members.Woody: And if you want to become a patron, go to Patreon and type in Bloody Angola. Jim: Yup.Woody: Right.Jim: That's all you got to do, it'll pull it up. We have several different tiers, of course. I know a lot of y'all like those transcriptions. We do transcribe all those episodes just for patron members. And we put them in PDF format so you can download those. You can actually print them out and you can read them like a book. Some people like to read.Woody: Yeah, I still like to read too. I think that's a pretty genius idea.Jim: Absolutely. And don't forget, as we mentioned at the beginning, vote, vote, vote.Woody: Hey, mom. I know you're listening to this because you love Bloody Angola, and I know you read every single night. My mom likes it--Jim: Love it.Woody: She's in her early-- well, I won't tell her age, but she works out every day still. Butshe listens to us when she works out.Jim: Ms. Overton, we appreciate you. Thank you. Woody: But she likes to read more.Jim: Yeah, she's a sharp lady.Woody: Mom, you can get the PDF of transcripts. Jim: That's right.Woody: We love all y'all. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. You rock. Thank you again for getting us nominated for Best History Podcast, and then, the overall best in the world, Adam Curry's People's Choice. Go to podcastawards.com and vote for us if you would, please. We only got, I think, less than two weeks left.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Hey, just to be nominated is fire. To make the finals would be sweet. To win it all--Jim: Blessing. Total blessing. And we love you, appreciate you all, y'all very much. Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, they wrap up season 4 of the podcast and give you an amazing sneak peek into season 5!#thewrap #truecrime #bloodyangolapodcast #podcastBLOODY ANGOLA PODCAST: THE WRAP FULL TRANSCRIPT Jim: Hey everyone and welcome back to another edition of Bloody- Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And Woody Overton, we've been doing 18 episodes. This is the 19th episode of Season 4.Woody: Wow. Sounds like it's time for a wrap [crosstalk] right? Jim: It must be.Woody: That is a lot.Jim: That is a lot. And, y'all, we have so much fun doing this. We just go and go and go, and before you know it, we've got four seasons and one. But we love it that way. And so, today we thought it was fun to not only kind of wrap up the season and discuss our thoughts on the Episodes that we did drop, but give you a sneak peek into what, Woody Overton, I think is going to be our best season ever.Woody: It's absolutely going to be the best, because we got the best stuff coming up. Jim: Oh, yes.Woody: And you did the best research and we got guests and everything else.Jim: Yeah. We're raising the bar to say the least for Season 5. But let's talk about Season 4, which, y'all, our most successful season to date. We had so many different subjects that we covered and when we envisioned this podcast, that was one of the things that we envisioned was being very broad about how we covered Angola.Woody: Right. We told you every story would be different. We've had some that were uplifting, we had some that were mentally disturbing about crime and we had just everything. We're going to talk about some, but it's all varied and all true.Jim: Oh, yeah. And we started off Season 4 with The Rise & Fall of C-Murder.Woody: That's right. Great one. We got a lot of response from that.Jim: Really kicked off the season.Woody: Really, really excellent. Loved it. I didn't really understand that he was such a legend in Louisiana.Jim: Yeah, he really was. And what a story. A lot of what we covered surrounded the fact that his case, there was never a whole lot of, say, proof. There was a lot of circumstantialstuff. And we covered some of the holes in that case and also covered some of the things that pointed towards C-Murder being involved. But we left it up to the listener to kind of judge for themselves what they thought.Woody: Right. We brought to you a lot of facts on it, researched and watched documentaries and everything else. And then, you got it from our perspective, and you the story and me the detective on it. So very interesting. If y'all hadn't heard it, you need to go listen to it.Jim: That's right. And then went straight from there into When Evil Escapes, which was the story of Casey White and Vicky White.Woody: Yes. That's crazy. And, y'all, it ties back into Bloody Angola because that's unfortunately those relationships develop. That's a very real deal. And here you have this career lady. I mean, her whole life's been about this and then she falls under the spell of this monstrous-Jim: Monster, yeah.Woody: -big dude. And the story that unfolds is just so crazy and how they end up.Jim: The ending on that one was fire. And we want to remind everyone you can go back and listen. If you hear us mention an episode that you haven't listened to yet, you can go back through and you'll find it. Just scroll down through Season 4. In Episode 3, we started our Death Sentence series which covered the death row exonerations with DNA and things like that taking place in Angola specifically.Woody: Yeah. And those cases were phenomenal. And I know a lot of people are against the death penalty and always say, "Well--" You come home and find your kid raped and mutilated, etc. But this shows the other side of it and their valid argument that, "Hey, you know what? Sometimes they get it wrong." So, we gave you the unbiased truth on these people that got out. And what actually ultimately happened to them. Go back and listen to it because you'll find a common thread on every one of them that got released. Didn't do so well.Jim: That's right. And then we felt it only right to cover those that were executed, I guess you could say, for the right reasons. There was preponderance of proof and that was with our Death Chamber Part 1 and just covered those guys that walked down and sat in Gruesome Gertie.Woody: Right. And not we only told about their crimes, we told about some of the [unintelligible 00:06:28] stuff, but then last meals, last words. And again, I think you find in most of those that some of the last words are almost the same and I don't want to ruin it for you, so go listen to it. But I've always been super fascinated by the last meals and last words.Jim: Yeah.Woody: And some great, great two-part series, wasn't it?Jim: Yeah. Well, yeah, two parts.Woody: Because there's that much information and that much fire in it.Jim: After that, we kind of got back to telling you the stories of some people that-- this guy in particular is still sitting in Angola and that is Principal to Murder, Justin Granier who committed some crimes in Gonzales, Louisiana.Woody: That's right, yeah. Very, very interesting to say the least.Jim: I found that as well because Justin is one that gained popularity on TikTok and some other places because he was on a show that featured Louisiana State Penitentiary and his work through several programs that they offer and does appear to be someone that is very resentful of his crime and all those sorts of things. But we're not going to ruin it for you. Go listen to it. Season 4, Episode 6, we covered The Escape From Angola in 1953. That was Ricardo Escobar who's--Woody: That's right.Jim: --a little home invasion.Woody: He did. And my grandfather actually ruled in this case. My namesake, actually, or I guess I'm his namesake and my son has the same name, but it's different time in what happened in this case. I think the first time ever any kind of verdict had come down like that in the state of Louisiana for an escapee.Jim: Yeah, it's a good one. Check it out. Season 4, Episode 7, we finally did it. We brought you becoming the warden. Burl Cain Part 1.Woody: Yes. [crosstalk] -legend- Jim: Wow, that was good.Woody: -and such, an early influence on me in my professional career when I worked for him before he became the Warden of Angola. He was the warden of Dixon Correctional Institute. Y'all, this story is amazing.Jim: It really is. And continues to this day. Woody: And we actually did several episodes.Jim: We sure did. As a matter of fact, Season 4, Episode 8 and 9 are the second and third parts of that series.Woody: Yeah. It covers everything from him coming up as the warden in Angola, to how he turned Angola around. Even to Hurricane Katrina coverage, and the bus station and all. Go listen to it. I get goosebumps. That dude just is amazing.Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: Sorry, Warden Cain, I said dude. Jim: [laughs]Woody: That gentleman is amazing.Jim: He really is. And if somebody's listening that knows him, we'd love to talk to him. We can do whatever, we can go up there, we can record him remotely, whatever, but I do know that he has paid some attention to our page and we'd love to sit down and talk to such alegend. Season 4, Episode 10, we went back to the death chamber. Had a lot of people wanting us to follow up on that with more execution stories. And we brought you Death Chamber Part 2. And then Episode 11, we wrapped that series up with a Part 3. We actually covered all of them from 1980 on.Woody: That's right. And then all the way up to Gerald Bordelon.Jim: Yes.Woody: Which was the last one put to death and he's right here out of the Livingston Parish.Jim: That's right.Woody: Very, very interesting. And you get to see the true nightmare of evil these people are.Jim: Absolutely. And then, Season 4, Episode 12, we went ahead and did a part 2 to death sentence and talked about more exonerations that have happened due to DNA or other technicalities. It doesn't necessarily mean-- when someone's exonerated, it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't do it. It just means there was-- unless it's a DNA situation, it just typically means that there was a technicality that was discovered later on that may have changed that sentence from death to life in prison.Woody: Right. They may have commuted it or what have you, but it's very interesting on each individual case, no two are the same.Jim: Then, we went and brought you to Season 4, Episode 13, and we started The Angolite Files.Woody: Yeah, that was fascinating. Jim: Those are fun, man.Woody: Where we go back, y'all, to the oldest editions that Jim found and the wording they use in. We read the actual articles and most of them are just really, really short, but it's like they didn't have any entertainment. They didn't have TV or radio station back then, the Angola's radio station. But the wordings are just crazy. And the things they talk about-- I know people, that's one of our most popular series, so y'all got to check it out.Jim: A little plug on Real Life Real Crime here, but it's funny that Woody, okay, so he just wrapped a really, really good series that you got to go here when we were, I guess you can say marketing this, one of the things that I put out there was that this was your seat inside a courtroom during an actual death penalty trial. And Woody really brings you inside of that as he goes over these transcripts that were very important and needed to be included. But you do something unique, which is-- and I end up doing the same thing from time to time, which is your voice almost changes and you go into this role and it's great because--Woody: Because you're in a character.Jim: Oh, yeah. He gets into that character and he's like, "Let me ask you something." Love it, man. So, go listen to that on Real Life Real Crime for sure if you have the opportunity. In Season 4, Episode 14, we brought you the Elite Chase Team.Woody: Ooh, what a great story.Jim: Ah, that was a good one.Woody: The best of the best at what they do, and not only for bloody Angola, they're sofamous, they get calls for assistance everywhere.Jim: Absolutely.Woody: If you going to run, that's one group of men that you don't want coming after you.Jim: Yo, you don't.Woody: And they've got it down to the science.Jim: They really do. So, go listen to that. Learn all about this Chase Team that is probably one of the best, if not the best in the nation.Woody: I'd put them up against anybody.Jim: Season 4, Episode 15, we had so much response on Becoming The Warden that we dropped an episode called Catch Your House, and it was Woody and Unspeakable's Kelly Jennings joining him as a guest on that show. And they discussed their relationship with Burl Cain, having both worked for him.Woody: Right. Very, very interesting. You get to hear from an old correctional officer's point of view and then a classification officer's point of view. And, of course, two totally different jobs. And KJ has awesome stories too. It's a great episode.Jim: Yeah. And then, we just continued on, and something happened in Louisiana that was generating a lot of talk in the news. And because we have a lot of ambiguity with this show, we bring you current stuff too, if it's making these kind of headlines. And we felt like this was something important. And the response we got from people that listened after the fact let us know that it was important. And that was The Louisiana Clemency Debacle Part 1.Woody: And that's actually a worldwide watch situation now because it's the first time it's ever been done in the history of certainly the state of Louisiana, but in the history of the United States and probably the history of the world. And then, you have both sides. Certainly, the people that wanted these things to go through and then I just don't understand it still.Jim: You and me and million other listeners, apparently. We actually, y'all, got some very special messages from families of people who are actually facing this, and they wanted to just thank us for shedding light on that. Of course, no thanks needed. That was our honor to do and all those sorts of things. But it really hit home to both of us the importance of what we're doing as it relates to situations like that.Woody: And we ended up telling, y'all, where they were from, what their crimes are, and it's just-- you got to listen to it.Jim: Yeah. And then, we continued on with Season 4, Episode 17. That was part two of the Clemency Debacle. And then after that, we even dropped a bonus episode called-- just for patrons, called The First 20 that covered the first 20 of these clemency hearings, the first 20 inmates that are coming up for these hearings.Woody: What it covered, y'all, everybody got the base list of the crimes and where they're from, etc. For the patrons, and thank you, patrons, the show wouldn't run without you, andApple subscribers now, we really delved into their crimes. We told exactly what happened and who was murdered and why was aggravating circumstances and the whole nine yards.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I mean, you can't get any deeper than what we gave them.Jim: That's right. And so, that episode just was absolute fire. And then, Season 4, Episode 18, we went back to The Angolite, and we did 1954 Through The Inmates Eyes and covered several Angolites in and around the year 1954. And one thing that's really great about those Angolites is it really does give you the view from that convict's standpoint. [crosstalk]Woody: Right. Again, the language they use, of course, most of those terms wouldn't be not only politically correct today, but just flat out strange to hear some of them. And we didn't read the whole magazine, y'all. We just picked out certain little articles throughout. Everything from dude who stole and got busted stealing peanut butter, which they put it in their all own words to such and such. And they worded a different way, but basically-Jim: Fights.Woody: -who got stabbed. And such stories today, spung a leak, or however they say, but you got to go listen to it. If you love Bloody Angola, and you love the history of the show, I mean, these articles and the wording and all the history, just the day-to-day life on the plantation back then is crazy.Jim: It really is. And the great thing was, back in those days, they didn't censor things that got out of Angola like they do now. Those Angolites, I mean, they really talked about some stuff that would make you raise an eyebrow that no way it would get out now.Woody: Right.Jim: But back then--Woody: And back then, really, though, it was really put on for the convicts and then it became nationally known and everything else and people would get subscription. Hell, I had a subscription to it in the early 90s. But back then, it was more like their newspaper.Jim: Yeah, that's right. And so that was the season that our most fire season so far as Woody would say. And so, when we're looking back at this, we're like, "Man, we just set a real high bar for Season 5," but we're up to the challenge.Woody: That's right.Jim: We're up to the challenge. [crosstalk] We're going to tell you more. That's right. Woody: We'll take it to the next level maybe.Jim: The next level. That's what we do. And so, we're going to give y'all a look right now into Season 5 and some things that are definitely going to take place. And look, anytime you start off a season, you look for that one story, that one character that really grabs an audience because you're constantly gaining listeners. So, that's kind of your goal, is I want to put something out there first that people can really get attracted to and we found that.Woody: We definitely did.Jim: Charlie Frazier--Woody: Probably the most infamous convict ever. Well, I can't say that. Jim: I would say in the South for sure.Woody: Certainly, the Brent Miller killings and stuff like that--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah.Woody: But this guy overall, what he did, how he lived his life. And what he did to eventually end up in Angola and all the things that happened, holy smokes. Y'all, we're going way back in history here. It's not a stretch to say that-- our episode in whatever season, the Red Hat Cell Block, it's not a stretch to say they built that cell block for Charlie Frazier. He was a bad ass. He could escape from anywhere. But we're going to tell you everything about him.Jim: And he did.Woody: And Jim Chapman has outpunted his coverage this time. Jim: Oh, my God, ever, ever.Woody: Wait till you see in Patreon, you'll get to see more than anybody else because all the documents and news stories and photographs and it's going to blow your mind. And as any proper great story that I've learned over the years doing on Real Life Real Crime, it's going to have to be a multi-part series. And you're going to want it to be a multi-part series. The only thing you're going to hate is when that episode ends because you're like, "Argh," till the next one.Jim: There's no doubt about it.Woody: And the patrons, of course, will get it commercial free and early releases.Jim: That's right. Look, with this particular guy, ever since we first started this, Season 1, I have been digging, digging, digging. It is very, very hard to get information on this particular guy, Charlie Frazier, for a multitude of reasons. One, back then, they just didn't keep records like they do now.Woody: No social media.Jim: Yeah, there's things that happen every time things get lost. Woody: There's no cable news, no TV channels or whatever.Jim: No doubt. This guy, I'm telling y'all, I'll make a promise to you. In my opinion, this will be the definitive history of Charlie Frazier. No doubt about it. I have over 100 pages' worth of information. Now, we're going to freeball this thing. Freeball, that's kind of weird-- but we're going to freeball it. We might not wear no underwear in the studio today. [chuckles] But we're going definitely talk off the cuff about this guy.But Patreon members, I want to say this just for you people. Look, everybody that gets this show outside of a Patreon or outside of an Apple Podcast and we're going to talk about that in just a minute. Anybody that gets information outside of that is getting it for free. And we love that. Look, everybody cannot be a subscriber. So, what we ask for those people to do is if you want to pay us back for the hours and hours we spend doing this stuff, all you have todo is share the podcast. And that is all we would ever ask for those that just are not in a position where they can support any other way. We appreciate that, we love it, we get it, and so those people, we thank as well.But our Patreon members, they have a financial investment in our success and that's huge. We love, love all of you, whether you do that or not. But for those folks, we give them something extra for that.Woody: We give them a lot extra- Jim: Yes.Woody: -Patreon members for Bloody Angola. Unless we are doing a little TikTok right now because--Jim: We don't do enough of that, right? [crosstalk]Woody: For the BA, y'all, on TikTok, we're discussing the ending of this season and thebeginning of the next and the fire stories. And we love y'all.Jim: Yes. That's right. We actually just dropped it, so check out that TikTok, by the way, Real Life Real Crime on TikTok. And you'll see all kinds of great stuff. But getting back to that, this particular Charlie Frazier episode, y'all, I have newspaper articles, clippings. I have actual records from where Charlie Frazier checked into hotels and signed his name. I have actual pictures of the places where people were killed. All of that, we're going to put just for patron members.Woody: We really think it's going to be such a success-- somebody's going to want to do a documentary on, and you've already done all the work.Jim: Yeah. If you're not a member yet, join in the next couple of weeks. We're also going to talk about a little guy by the name of Huddie Ledbetter who is otherwise known as Lead Belly. Look, for those of y'all that aren't familiar, he is probably the most popular or one of the most popular convicts ever in Bloody Angola. He was a blues musician that actually got released from prison-Woody: Because he was a blues musician.Woody: -because he was-- some people say he's the best blues musician ever. So, we're going to be covering the story. His story is absolutely unbelievable. Phenomenal story. We're going to be doing that this season. How about-- y'all ready for this? Look, we've been working on getting someone on the show that would-- I've never seen an interview that this guy has done.Woody: Me either.Jim: But he has done something that is worldwide famous, and that is he was the detectivethat actually caught Robert Lee Willie and Joe Vaccaro.Woody: Not only caught them, he's the one that actually got confessions out of. FBI and everybody else also was there, and they flew Mr. Sharp in. They flew him in and he got the confessions.Jim: So, this season, Detective Donald Sharp, for those of y'all, Robert Lee Willie and Joe Vaccaro, well, let me tell you this. Sean Penn played the character in Dead Man Walking that these guys were based after.Woody: I think he won an Academy Award for it.Jim: I believe he did as well. This exclusive interview with Detective Donald Sharp coming atyou this season, get ready for it.Woody: And we would want to thank him ahead of time for coming in and doing this. [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah, he don't have to do it. I want to thank his daughter who reached out to me and kind of got me in contact with Detective Sharp.Woody: Thank you.Jim: Yeah, thank you very much. And a fan of the show, and listens to the show, shoutout toher.Woody: Right. That's amazing.Jim: Also, how about there's something in Angola that we've been requested since Season 1 to talk about, and that is the Rodeo.Woody: Rodeo. And by the time we get to this story, the Rodeo happens four weekends, every weekend in October, every year, and then I think one weekend in April. But anyway, it'll be that time by the time this story comes out. It's just a whole different world.Jim: Yeah. We're going to bring it to you.Woody: We're going to bring it to you and it's so much that goes on and all that.Jim: So, we're going to be bringing you the Angola Rodeo. And how about something that I get a lot of requests for and that-- Actually, a lot of people are shocked, they know that at some point through listening to our show that women were imprisoned at Angola.Woody: My grandmother was actually a correctional officer there for the women part of the prison. When my mama was a baby girl, they lived on the B-Line.Jim: There you go, and I haven't even talked to Woody about this yet, but I actually have been doing an enormous amount of research on women in Angola specifically. I have a heck of a show that we're going to be bringing your way specifically about the women.Woody: Yeah.Jim: So, you're going to love that.Woody: If the master historian researcher says he's got it, then-- [crosstalk]Jim: I got it. I got the juice. [laughs]Woody: He loves to give me the juice for the fourth time, and I'm like, "Oh, wow."Jim: Yeah, man. When I found the juice on Charlie Frazier, it was 11 o'clock at night, I'm texting Woody.Jim: I was like, "Yes, yes."Woody: "You're not going to believe what I got my hands on."Jim: When we finally do get to take the tour of Angola, we're going to be able maybe teach them something.Woody: Oh, yeah. In addition to that, we're going to bring you a couple of single cases that have really made a lot of headlines in Angola. One of them is just a horrible individual. We're going to talk about, not only his time before he was incarcerated in Angola and what he did, but we're going to tell you about what he did when he got there, which includes escape attempts. And it's a guy by the name of Brandon Scott Lavergne. We're going to be bringing you that finally after a lot of research. And we're going to bring you another one that I have my eye on, but we'll leave that one a surprise. We'll let you wait. Now, so that's some upcoming stuff that we have.And we also want to tell you about some new features that we have on Bloody Angola that we've been constantly working towards. When you're running these podcasts and you're doing these things, it's a constant work because you have to stay up with technology. And one of the things that I felt like we, and Woody also felt like we had a gap in, was our Apple Podcast listeners that we have a Patreon and let me tell y'all, the Patreon is where it's at, as far as detailed bonus content. There's no limitations to Patreon. You can have several different tiers and all that, but some people just don't do it. They're just not fans of it, maybe of that website or whatever. We want to make sure we didn't leave them out. So, we partnered with Apple Podcast to where you can get bonus episodes and early releases right from Apple Podcast. You don't have to sign up for another source. I think they just bill your Apple account like they do the App Store and stuff.Jim: The other thing about it is, Jim, is they get to try it.Woody: Yes, it's a seven-day free trial.Jim: Free trial, we're offering a free trial for seven days.Woody: So, go in and listen to content. If you don't like it, great. But I can promise you, you're going to love it.Jim: Yeah, you're going to love it.Woody: Like you said, it's different from Patreon and I get that. But some people just want tobe able to go and punch a button and listen.Jim: Absolutely. And hey, look, were honored to have Apple Podcast approve us for that. That's an approval process. It's not automatic like some things are, so it spoke highly of our show that they would approve us for that, wanted us on board and pushing us and all those sorts of things. Also, another reminder on that front, two quick things. Bloody Angola, follow the Facebook page because we post all kinds of fun stuff on there. Sometimes, it's just updates. Sometimes, it's just what we're doing.Woody: Jim always comes up with the coolest artwork for each episode. [chuckles] [crosstalk]Jim: I love it. I'm so proud of my artwork. That is another thing I text Woody at 11 o'clock, "Check this out."Woody: "Woody, look at this," and I am like waiting outside of my box [unintelligible 00:32:21].Jim: [laughs] Yeah, no doubt about it. So, check that out. And we also have a website where you can purchase Bloody Angola swag. Look, we just added a couple of things. Another thing that our highest tier Patreon members get, they get a quarterly gift. We don't want to send the same t-shirt 10 ten times or a different t-shirt every time. So, every time we send that quarterly gift, it's something different. So, those of you out there that I know are listening right now that got one of those, maybe post a picture of you holding it, maybe a selfie, and send it to me and maybe I'll send you something extra and put it on the page.Woody: Not only is it Bloody Angola related, this latest round, we even signed it. Jim: Oh, yeah, that's right.Woody: Jim and I both signed them.Jim: That's right. And we'll be offering those also for purchase, I just got to get those uploaded to the website and you can buy. We have a few of those left and you can be styling in some Blood Angola swag. But don't forget about the website and the fact you can listen to all the episodes directly from it if you chose to. It has a swag store. We also do some blogging on there. So, I'm sure I'm going to be doing a lot of blogging coming up with these crazy episodes. But you can check those blogs out and those are great things to share on Facebook pages and stuff for people that may be interested.Woody, our growth, which is what you look for is nothing too short of staggering.Woody: Y'all validate us. And it's amazing. I want to say this, I think it's September 30th?Jim: Yeah, for the Podcast Awards? Yeah, September 30th.Woody: I want to remind you all, y'all voted and made us a Top 10 finalists for the History category-Jim: Huge honor.Woody: -in all podcasts in the world, in the History category. And it's a huge honor. Hey, just to make the finals is fire, and the Top 10 in the World in History? We're already winners and I think we got a real legit shot because of you fans.Jim: Yeah. I do too. September 30th, another thing with the Facebook, we're going to post the link where you can go watch it live. They have a little award ceremony online. You can click on that and you can actually watch the whole Podcast Awards online. And they'll announce the winners and play little videos, acceptance videos.Woody: I just want to thank y'all again for getting us there, just under a year old.Jim: And we love it because with this award ceremony in particular, the fans vote on it. It'snot a panel of people that don't know us.Woody: It's people's choice. Y'all did it. The top 10 belongs to y'all, not Jim and I. And if we win it, that'd be another blessing. And the award belongs to y'all.Jim: That's right. Just a last little thing today. This will be a shorter episode than normal because it's a wrap-up show. But we want to let you know that next week, we're going to do a little episode swap, and we're going to have everything. We're going to be prepping for Season 5, but we're going to put a fire episode of Real Life Real Crime on the feed here with Bloody Angola.Woody: Absolutely. It's going to be love, and I love it. We hadn't done one of those in a long time. We're also going to put a Bloody Angola episode on Real Life Real Crime Original.Jim: That's right. Because everybody that listens to one, then listen to the other, our numbers will be exactly the same. [laughs] So hopefully, someone will hear that maybe they'll introduce other people to the family.Woody: And y'all, this is a process, and certainly it is a business. So many podcasts come and go, but we have grown and grown and grown, and we've made it. And yes, Patreons, thank you so much, now our Apple subscribers. And thank you to our advertisers.Jim: Oh, yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned that. HelloFresh, which is advertising on this episode.Woody: Look, I'm a foodie, and I'm not just giving a senseless plug. They've been sponsoring me through Real Life Real Crime since like 2019. And the food is phenomenal.Jim: It is.Woody: I guess I get stuck in my old Cajun cooking ways or whatever. They send me this box of stuff and I'm like, "Oh," but all the sauces and the fresh meats and everything are in there, and I've never been disappointed. Sometimes, I tell my wife, like, "I'll reorder that right now." And it's a great deal.Jim: It really is. And in the show notes of this episode, you can get that, and I believe it's 50BLOODYANGOLA.Woody: That's the code.Jim: And you get all kinds of perks. It's like 50% off 15 meals or something like that. Woody: It's way cheaper than going out to eat or having something delivered.Jim: Especially with that code but make sure you use that code, y'all, and we'll link it. We're going to talk about it in the description of this podcast. Just scroll down and you'll get all the information you need on that deal. And it helps support the show. It helps keep your grocery bill down.Woody: And it helps filling your stomach with some great food.Jim: That's right.Woody: You'll be looking like a crackhead like me for that box to be delivered. Jim: [laughs] That's it. And it makes you look like a heck of a cook.Woody: Oh, yeah. If you want to impress somebody, oh, yeah, it's--Jim: Yeah. So, check them out, HelloFresh. We're very thankful for them. And look, on another note on that, and the last thing we'll bring up on sponsors, I've had a few local folks to Louisiana ask about sponsoring Bloody Angola. If you want information on that, just shoot me an email, jim@localleadersthepodcast.com or bloodyangola@gmail.com. I check the first one quicker than the second one. So, that one I check every five minutes, so the Local Leaders is the best one to use. But I can give you some information on how you can be a local sponsor for the show.Woody: Yeah. And a lot of different options on that. And we have a huge listener base, especially here in Louisiana.Jim: Absolutely. And we give you guys a special deal because you're local folks and we want to help you out. So, until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. I'm blessed and love all y'all. Jim: Yes, your hosts of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.[Bloody Angola theme][Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman you are brought back to the 50's as Woody and Jim cover some of the more infamous stories regarding Louisiana State Penitentiary as told through the pages of the Angolite Prison Newspaper.#TheAngolite #1954throughtheinmateseyes #bloodyangolapodcast #convictGET 50% OFF PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!www.Hellofresh.com/BloodyAngola501954 THROUGH AN INMATES EYES: Bloody Angola Podcast TranscriptJim: Hey everyone and welcome back to Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And we got some Angolites.Woody: Right? I love these stories, man. True, true history from the past. Before we get started, we want to say our thoughts and prayers are with all our people in Florida and Georgia that are getting slammed right now, or got slammed yesterday and came ashore as a Category 3.Jim: And continue to get slammed. Woody: And it's just bad. And they said they haven't seen a storm like that in 125 years. So, just prayers for them. I guess you call it Idalia, I-D-A-L-I-A. It's just bad, prayer for them. We know what they're going through.Jim: Yeah, we've been through a few of those ourselves. So, our hearts and prayers and thoughts are with those folks and the road to recovery. You will recover. It'll seem like you won't, but you'll come back. Look, we've done a lot of historical podcasts with relation to the Angolite, the prison weekly paper that Angola has put out for so many years. This is an award-winning paper all over the world.Woody: And actually turned into a magazine because I had a subscription to it back in the 90s. Jim: Absolutely. Some of the stories from back in the day, y'all, you just won't believe until we read them. We've had a lot of people ask for us to do another one. Got a lot of messages. So, we're bringing you another one today because we got our hands on a lot of them from the 50s and 60s. So, we kind of cherry pick what we feel like are the best stories out of those magazines, and we go over those with y'all. And I'll start it off. And this is an Angolite from April 21st, 1956. Woody: Wow.Jim: Yeah. That was a heck of a time in America, and even in Angola, as you're about to hear. Woody: Definitely Bloody Angola, man. Jim: Yes, for sure. And as a matter of fact, we're going to start off with a bloody story at Bloody Angola, and it was a headline. It said, "Two Dead, One Hurt. Tragedy trip hammered a triple blow at Angola last weekend, leaving two inmates dead and another maimed for life." It says one of the two dead suffered fatal injuries in an accident. The second died of a heart attack. Maimed with his right hand amputated at the wrist was a third.Woody: Wow. Jim: The dead Charles D. Clarkson, 24, of Caddo Parish. He had fallen under the wheels of a tractor last Friday. A broken rib punctured his lung. He died enroute to Charity Hospital, New Orleans. Lawrence Virgil Turley, 55, a carpenter, died Sunday afternoon at the General Hospital of a heart attack. Injured only a half hour after he had been assigned to work on the Mammoth Press at the Tag plant, Venice Landry, 20, had his right hand mangled under the giant bolster ram. Woody: Wow. Jim: Which is the thing, y'all, that stamps it. Woody: Slams.Jim: Yeah, slams that steel and stamps those plates. His hand was amputated at General Hospital Saturday. Pretty, pretty wild stuff going on at Angola. And look, these days, they don't give you those reports. Typically, you really got to dig for them.Woody: The General Hospital really wasn't a hospital. That's when the nurse, the angel-- they call her angel, was there, there was no doctor and all that. It's crazy, right? Jim: That's right. Woody: And the language they use in these, y'all, is really comical. Jim: And you've got to remember, this was a different time. So, you'll hear things like colored and whites. Woody: It's their words, not ours. Jim: That's right. Woody: All right, so the next one says, "Two Fail in Brief Freedom. Wallace McDonald and Norman Stroupe are in a tight, locked cells today following a brief bid for liberty Tuesday night. Security officials said the two took off from the transportation department in Downtown Angola-" That's funny. "In Downtown Angola Tuesday about noon. They were recaptured within a six-hour period by local authorities, both formerly bedded down at Camp H2," the report said. Jim: [laughs] Woody: Kind of brief on that. Jim: Yeah. Basically, they turned a jet-- and that's what I really like about these, is they do tell you about the escapes and stuff. I mean, they don't hold back.Woody: Downtown Angola.Jim: Yeah. [chuckles] Well, how about this one? "Cleaver in an attack tried," says, "John Newton, a new prison kitchen worker, was jailed Monday on a charge of felonious assault with a meat cleaver." Yes, sir. "Newton is said to have sliced Albert Johnson upside his head following an argument. Johnson was hospitalized with lacerations." Woody: Jeez Louise.Jim: Yeah. So, Mr. Johnson got a--Woody: Meat cleaver to the head. Jim: You don't attack people with meat cleavers.Woody: Bloody Angola for sure. Jim: That's right. Woody: So crazy. And then this next one, y'all says, "Heavy equipment acts to rush free houses. Using earth from the miles long embankment of the old Louisiana and Arkansas right of way, the LSP Heavy Equipment department-" That's funny. "Under Superintendent Dennis Johnson was last week engaged in an all-out operation to fill a five-acre plot of ground for the construction of 21 new free personnel houses. The plot is located on the B-Line at the foot of the old receiving station hill. It is to be filled to a depth of 36 inches. Johnson says he expects his department will wind up with the earth fill operation within two weeks. Construction houses will then start, he said." It's funny. They're talking about building part of the B-Line, another 21 houses added.Jim: Yeah. So, this is back, y'all, for those that may just be joining us, the B-Line is where all the free people live. Woody: Inside the wire. Jim: Inside the wire. And this was during the construction of that way back in 1956.Woody: And my mama lived there during that time.Jim: And we'll go on to another page of this one. And there's an article, it says, "More crippled birds. A second group of crippled pelicans, each with the wings broke by hail in the recent storm, were sighted last Sunday by deck passengers on the Angola ferry. The birds have roosted on the log a few feet from the shore and near the middle of the ferry landing. Observers said the wings will heal in time and that it is no rescue operation."Woody: That's crazy. Jim: And the reason we included that one is, it's interesting that they try to keep you up to date with what's going on the outside. And the only way they know that is to look out those bars in that wire and actually see it. A little story on pelicans. Who knew hail could injure their wings? Woody: The news of the day, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: All right. This one says, "O, let us spray. An old-fashioned mattress spraying bee was held at Camp E last Monday, under the eagle eye of the unit captain, A. Couvillon. The action was aimed at eliminating any wandering insects who had hoped to make the unit their dwelling place this summer." [laughter] Woody: It's spraying for bedbugs, basically.Jim: Yeah.Woody: That's funny.Jim: And something that you had to do up in Angola for sure. Woody: It had to be really bad for them to do it for the convicts. Jim: That's right. And then, we'll continue on. And there's one that says, "Falls upstairs, breaks his jaw." Woody: Uh-oh.Jim: That's right. "Joseph Tornabene, Camp H-1 juvenile, fell upstairs one day last week and broke his jaw in three places."Woody: I bet that didn't happen. Jim: [laughs] "The adolescent was returning to his bunk after a shower, according to the story told to the hospital. He was taken to Charity Hospital in New Orleans for treatment." So, they're basically trying to say-- Woody: They beat his ass.Jim: [laughs] Broke his jaw--[crosstalk]  Woody: "You better tell them you fell up the stairs, boy."Jim: Yeah, that's it. Woody: That's funny. Jim: Broke his jaw in three places from a slip. That was one that I really thought painted a picture of the times in prison. Woody: Funny. I think that's when they had the convict guards too. All right, so here we go. The title of this is "Pocketed Razor Draws Jail Time." Says, "He told arresting officers he was just going to shave, but they didn't believe him. He is James B. Shivers of the STU, and he was caught with a straight razor. The board assessed a term on bread and duck because they said only blades for a razor are lawful."Jim: [laughs] [crosstalk] Jesus Christ. And when they caught him, he said, "Well, I was just using it to shave." Woody: "Yeah, I was just using it to shave." Jim: "What's wrong with that?" All right, how about this one? "Fresh fish leave sheltered cloister as labor beckons. 34 fish, until recently swimming unfettered in the administration unit tank-" And, y'all, when they refer to fish, they're talking about new prisoners. "-At the General Hospital have been screened, tested, probed, and activated by members of the classifications board at a recent session. Purpose of the session was to ascertain whether the fish can earn his bed and board. A few whose records indicated they were unlikely to run were made trustys on the spot. Others who must wait and further test went on jobs under the gun. [crosstalk] 18 of the fish are today assigned to the Angola Cane Corn and Cotton Company as field laborers."[laughter] Jim: "In the number were those who will live at Camp A, H and H-2. Culinary work attracted three men, a clerkship and garage work for a third and a welding for a fourth." So, they were classifying them into jobs. And of all those people, 34 fish, only three were made trustys. So, that tells you most of them, they were like, "Eh, you're going to run--[crosstalk]"  Woody: Those three had probably been there before, and then the ones under the gun, that's the shittiest job in the world. Can you imagine, like this summer, when it's 105 and then 116 with a heat index out there all day long, swinging a hoe? That's crazy.Jim: Yeah, that's insane.Woody: But they did something to get there.Jim: That's right. Woody: This one says, "Brown bags chops. John Hunt told the man he was hungry, and he had purloined the poke chops-", and they spell it P-O-K-E, y'all, "-for a midnight snack. The man sighed and put his pencil in notebook and told John, 'Put them back.' But on going through the gate again, the same suspicious bulge was evident." Jim: [laughs] Woody: Right. "Searched for chops, were confiscated, as was also Hunt's trusty pass from Pine Ford dormitory, his mail is now being sent to the local jail."Jim: Which means lockdown, basically. Woody: That's funny. Jim: They locked his ass down. Woody: Extra poke chops out the kitchen.Jim: Poke chops. Woody: Poke chops. Jim: Yeah. So that was from that one, and we're going to do another one here from August 11, 1956. And there's a headline on there. It says, "Angola's Informal Hot Seat. Someone at Angola that I'm not going to name, that I neither know nor care was almost burned to a cinder one day last week."Woody: Uh-oh.Jim: Oh, this guy must have been mad at him. "It seems that this 'worker' presumably was doing a little digging under the steel plate that separates the medium from the trusty compounds, which is located beneath the walkway directly below the snitch box at the medium security gate." So, this dude was digging a hole--[crosstalk] Woody: He wanted to get out. Jim: "He quit in a hurry-" it gets better, "-when a bolt of sizzling lightning momentarily blinded him and luckily did not fry his hide. His shovel had cut through one of nine cables, each of which was live with 2300 volts of crackling death."Woody: What? Jim: Yes, sir. "The soil around the cable was burned to charcoal, and if the lucky bum had come into contact with that current in that cable, they'd have been buried right there where they found him."Woody: Wow. Jim: "Take this information for what it's worth and continue grave digging. The Angolite or dig your own grave, literally, with the assurance that the Angolite will make your name famous throughout the state. It's up to you."Woody: That's funny. Jim: [laughs] That guy was [unintelligible [00:15:55] trying to escape. Woody: [crosstalk] -dig out and dug into the cable lines. [crosstalk] -signs you see, "Don't dig here." They didn't have those back then. Crazy. All right, here we go, Bloody Angola. So, this one's called "Dumbbell Opens Passoit's Scalp." Jim: Uh-oh. [laughs] Woody: "Veral Passoit, was removed from the cell block to the hospital, August 8th, with a head wound. Veral, who was removed from the cell block area, August 8th, with a head wound, which he claimed to have suffered when a weight he was lifting fell on his noggin. Hospital records show that he is getting along very nicely despite the 15 or 18 sutures required to close the clean tight wound."Jim: Somebody hit him with a dumbbell. [laughs] Woody: Hit him with a knife. Dumbbell wouldn't leave a clean, open wound, it'd be smashed. Jim: Yeah. Woody: But they weren't going to rat on each other.Jim: Mm-hmm. Woody: [crosstalk] -take your lick.Jim: And y'all imagine this, now this is the 50s. These guys, there is no TV and all that. I mean, this is the only entertainment you get, and the only way you can keep up with what's going on in prison as an inmate. Woody: It was a huge prison, right? Jim: Yes. So, we'll move on. This is February 21st, 1959 edition. And the headline says, "New Prices at the Camp Store." And I really enjoyed this one because I'm going to give you actual prices, but it says, "Mr. James Thornton, Chief Administrative Officer, announced new price levels for many items at the camp store this week. And we have printed the price list on page 6." So, when you go to page six, I just highlighted some of these, and I'm going to read off to you that I found interesting. So, back in 1959, if you needed some Alka Seltzer, it was going to cost you 28 cents. Woody: Really? Jim: 28 cents. Cheez-It's, 10 cents. Woody: I can't believe they still had Cheez-It back then. Jim: Yeah. No, it surprised me. Cigarettes. You want some king size cigarettes? It's going to cost you 30 cents. Woody: What? Jim: So, if you want some kings and then some regulars, 29 cents. Woody: Yeah, but that was their currency back then. That's what they paid each other with. Jim: That's right. Community coffee, 40 cents. Woody: Community coffee, way back then. Jim: Way back then, and it was instant. Noxzema, 19 cents. Woody: I was using Noxzema in prison. Jim: [laughs] That's a great-- Look, they got nail clippers for 20 cents. Woody: Keep yourself properly clean. Jim: That's it. Potato chips, 5 cents. Woody: Really? Jim: Yeah. Shampoo, White Rain brand. Who knew that was around then? 41 cents. Rolling tobacco, 12 cents. Woody: Wow. That's a big deal in prison too, when I used to be there and they still had cigarettes, you could tell who was a really poor convict because they had the Bugler in the can or that blue can. The Bugler was a yellow, red, white, blue, and the other one was just a light blue can. But they were the ones that couldn't afford the Camels or the Marlboros or whatever and had to roll their own cigarettes. And the ones who couldn't afford any of those, when the other ones would throw their butts out, they'd go pick up the butts and smoke the butts. Jim: Oh, come on. Ugh. Toothpaste, everybody's got to have toothpaste. Well, it cost you 12 cents for Colgate. Woody: Wow. It's cheap.Jim: Yeah. Vicks salve, 35 cents. And they had Vaseline hair oil back then. That was 14 cents. So, I'm going to take this and I'm going to post it on the Patreon.Woody: Yeah, because there's a lot of stuff. Jim: Yeah, it's a lot of stuff, but pretty cool to go through. They got pork skins on here. They got all kinds of stuff. Liver pills. Woody: Liver pills. [chuckles] Jim: What they call hives, which are like crackers back then. So, we'll post that on there so you patron members can look through it and really have some fun.Woody: Yeah, that's funny. Jim: Checking that out. And we'll go to September 10th, 1955. Woody is going to start us off on that one. Woody: All right. So, September 1955. "Airport here averages plane per day. Attendance at the Angola airport were a shade busy last week. Logged in and out were three planes." They were real busy, huh? "Monday, the Paul A. Lambert Cessna arrived and departed. Tuesday the Jas F. O'Neill craft. And Wednesday, a Red two plane bearing number N970246." Jim: Oh, my God, they even knew the tag number.Woody: [chuckles] I know my mom when she was on the parole board, they used to fly them around the state because more cost efficient and quicker to get them there and stuff. But I can't believe they had it back in the 50s.Jim: Yeah, planes have been around a while. They were flying them in World War II and all.Woody: Yeah, but not passenger planes. Jim: Yeah.Woody: I mean some, but I guess it was probably military surplus. Jim: Yeah. "One on the lam still running," it says. "Police in four states--" and I'm going to look up this case, y'all, because I was like, wow, this would be a good one to cover. "Police in four states are today looking for Ray Coughron, 28, a 15-year termer, formerly domiciled at Camp H-2. Donning a correctional officer's uniform, Coughron quietly slipped out of the yard gate last Sunday. Bloodhounds failed to pick up his trail." Woody: He must have somebody waiting on him. Jim: Well, they have to have checked out [crosstalk] never heard of that.Woody: I mean, he had a CO uniform and then he got out. And if the Angola Chase team couldn't get on him? He's gone. Jim: Yeah. And he did. Woody: If I was going to run, you--[crosstalk] Jim: He got correctional officer's uniform. Must have worked in a laundry or something. Woody: If I was going to run or you were going to run, you'd have somebody waiting on you, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: I wouldn't be running those hills or trying to swim the river. Jim: And I guarantee, y'all, one difference because I've read a lot of these Angolites between then and now is they don't post escapes in the Angolite anymore. They don't want any other prisoners reading that.Woody: It's kind of like the mass shootings nowadays. We don't say the shooter's name. Like the one that just did it in Dollar Store, he copied the one in the same city five years before and mentioned it in his manifesto. Jim: That's right. Woody: But anyway. All right, so let's go to September 10th, 1955. That's 73 years ago, y'all, next week or the week after, says, "New laundry washes for all. For the first time in the history of the Louisiana State Penitentiary, a centrally located laundry is now handling washing and ironing for the entire institution."Jim: Oh.Woody: Right. "Today, wheels are rolling at the new prison and a crew of 15 men is daily turning out clean sheets, towels, pants, shirts, and personal linen of male inmates at all camps. The work formally had been done in part at the women's unit. The other part at individual camps. Set up in preparation for the time when all male inmates are housed at the new prison. The laundry, under the managership of Captain Bill Kerr, is currently turning out 1100 pounds of dry wash hourly. With the mangle of four ironing sheets, the plant will later on press pants and shirts. 'Ten pressing units have been ordered and are to be installed,' Captain Kerr said. A schedule has been worked out to handle washing five days per week. Saturday is general cleanup day for the plant. The plant at the woman's camp now handles only free personnel laundry." [laughter] Woody: They want to mix them up. That's your job. Another one building, they didn't have AC and they turned out 1100 pounds. Jim: Oh, yeah. Woody: It's crazy. Jim: And it's interesting that back then, 1955 is when they started just finally having this main laundry facility for the--[crosstalk] Woody: One thing they don't mention in there is underwear. So, when you get in, they give you prison-issued underwear. But when you do send your stuff into the laundry, most inmates keep their underwear and have their bitch wash them. That's why I say you'll be tossing salads and washing dirty drawers. They'll actually rent out their bitch to wash people's dirty underwear in their sinks. And they hand scrub them with soap and wash them and they hang them and make them fresh for whomever for like a couple of cigarettes. Jim: Wow. There you go, straight from the wolf, right there. "Prison guard post reaching skyward," this one says. "Those new two-story steel skeletons you see poking skyward with the yellow-painted girders are indications it won't be long. They're the structural steel columns for the new guard towers at the new prison. Each will be complete with glassed-in cupola and searchlight." Woody: And they're still there today. Jim: And they're still there today. Yeah. They made them to last back in those days, but built those new guard towers way back then. Woody: Yeah. The funny thing about those is when you go up in them, the outside doors lock, but they're manned 24/7, never take off. I've worked them before. You go in, they actually sit on the outside of the fence. So, inmates can't get to that door. So, you have to go to the door and holler up at the guard, the CO, and they lower you a key down and you unlock it and it's on a string. They pull it back up and you go in and you lock it from the inside. And it's got a spiral staircase. You come through, like a trap door, and it's a round room. That's where your rifle and your shotgun is and your lights and stuff like that. Jim: Yeah.Woody: It's pretty cool. Jim: Awesome. Woody: And then a telephone. That's the only other thing you have. You might have a radio, but pretty interesting. All right, so let's go to, again, on September 10th, 1955, says, "Free Ferry soon to open at St. Francisville. According to the Plainsman of Zachary-" That's the plainsman. It is the Zachary newspaper. "According to the Plainsman of Zachary, named The Feliciana, the vessel costs $200,000 and it may take a load off the Angola ferry. Visitors may enter via the front gate." Jim: Interesting. Woody: I have to ask my mom about that one because it didn't run for long.Jim: Yeah. Woody: Now, they have the ferry that still to this day that runs across into-- I think it might be [unintelligible 00:28:20]. It runs across the river and a lot of free people live over there. Or they'll drive into that ferry and the ferry drives them across and they come in. But this one would-- imagine how many COs lived in St. Francisville, which is back then, you had to take that long ass, hour-long road out, then get to St. Francisville another 10 or 15 minutes, I guess, they just ran them right up the river about a 15-minute ride. Jim: Yeah. Back then you had to have a ferry to go across that. Woody: Yeah. There's no bridges. You're right. Jim: Continuing on. This one is hilarious, y'all. It says, "Voodoo-Hoodoo. You've seen those copper wire amulets and necklaces of beans and so on. Voodoo stuff, maybe. Anyway, Edward Harris of Camp A walked up to the man last week and said people were after him. He didn't elaborate whether he had been hexed or just plain conjured. They locked him up lightly in the sneezer until the bug doctor examines his head." [laughter] Woody: We'll call it [unintelligible 00:29:33] of a mental case. The man said, "They're after him, so lock him up." Jim: The funny thing is with that particular deal is this guy's exposing him to the whole prison. Woody: Yeah. Jim: So, these guys, look, they gossip worse than anybody you've ever seen, and they're all nosy. Woody: They've got nothing else to do. Jim: That's right. Woody: Basically, he went to the man and ratted himself out. Crazy. Put him in the sneezer.Jim: Sneezer. Woody: "Ex-guard hurt in camp fracas. Frank Peoples, who until last Saturday was a guard was busted back to trusty-ship that day." So, that means he was an inmate guard. Jim: Yeah. Woody: "The following morning, he was rushed to the General Hospital suffering with a knotted head."[laughter] Woody: "He's resting well on the colored ward today." Think about this, the prison guards and we talked about that was a way for them to save money and everything back then, but at nighttime, they might have had one CO per camp, in nighttime, they just locked them in. And the prison guards in there were like gods. And you can get one taken out, he got demoted, and he got his ass beat that night. Jim: [laughs] Love that. And we got a couple on this page, and they're short, so I'm going to read a couple. I'll let Woody read a couple. The first says, "Bathing to be enforced." Yes. "Beware your long-eared scouts and men of wrath who nothing fear except a bath. White dormitory at the new prison were all set to give one of their number a dunking last week on account that he hadn't put the showers to use since he entered the joint, which is a violations of the rules, besides." [chuckles] So that was a little short one. Woody: Even most of the convicts don't like a stinky ass. Jim: That's right. Woody: You get some people in there, not only have they not ever followed the rules in civilization, but they don't have any personal hygiene. So, I think what they're probably saying is the inmates drug them in there [crosstalk] ass down. Jim: That's exactly what they did. Gave him a GI shower. [laughs] Woody: [crosstalk] -stinky motherfucker.Jim: They basically forced his ass take a bath. He must have been stinking. Imagine you're working out in those fields all day. Oh, my God.Woody: Nasty. No deodorant and everything else. Jim: You would think you'd want to take one. But anyhoo, "Localite knifed in camp affray. Henry Davis at Camp F underwent a ham stitching at the emergency ward of the General Hospital one day last week. Henny ran afoul of a knife in the hands of an unidentified assailant." Woody: [crosstalk] -he's unidentified. Jim: [laughs] Woody: He ran afoul of him. Jim: Yeah. Woody: That's crazy. Jim: Yeah. I love the way they wrote back then. Woody: I love it. Jim: It's a totally different dialect. Woody: Nobody was ratting anybody out. They just did. Jim: Yeah. Unidentified, I'm sure. Woody: And again, this is still September 10th, 1955, and says, "Cuts out early, ends in jail. He was trying to get to camp early for dinner, Calvin Mitchell, a camp aid trusty, told officials last week. Cutting grass with a crew, Mitchell was missed at a field count. A chase ensued and the lad was found wondering. They put him in the hole, pending DB action." The disciplinary board, y'all. Crazy.Jim: Yeah. Basically, he tried to say, "I was just hungry, going early to eat." Woody: [crosstalk] -get that meal. Jim: [laughs] Wandering.Woody: The next one. "Pipe used in knotting spree. When Warren Guidry of Camp of F uses a pipe, he uses a big one. One and a half inches. One day last week, he wielded it with painful and telling effect upon the noggin of Manson Powell, authorities said. Guidry is awaiting the outcome of a trial. Powell is awaiting the taking off of bandages." [laughter] Woody: That's funniest shit.Jim: That's crazy.Woody: It's like every day, this one's getting knifed, this one's getting hit.Jim: I'm telling you--  Woody: In the noggin. Jim: Yes, the noggin. And look, we're going to go way back to 1954, November 27th. And the headline on this one really struck my interest. It says, "34 shot in rabies try-out." Woody: What? Jim: Yeah. Now, y'all got to remember there was a time there was no rabies shot. You got rabies, you just went nuts or whatever. And a lot of times when they would get these shots, they would try them out on like inmates.Woody: New medical procedures. Jim: Yeah. They would be the guinea pig. Woody: Drug companies come in and basically pay the prison to get their test subjects. Jim: Yeah. So, it says, "34 Angola inmates, six of them women, are today nursing slightly sore arms in what is said to have been the first guinea pig effort ever made here in the interest of medical science. The 34 last Saturday and Sunday were given the first of a series of inoculations aimed at testing a new type of vaccine for the treatment of rabies. All were volunteers," the prison management said.Woody: Yeah, bet.Jim: [laughs] They might have paid them something, I don't know. Woody: [crosstalk] -cigarette. Jim: Yeah. "Under the auspice of the School of Medicine at Tulane University at New Orleans, the inoculations were given by Dr. DP. Conwell, a Tulane medical staffer." There you are, at the start of the rabies vaccine in history. And who knew Angola played such a big part in that?Woody: Well, I had actually heard something before about them trying new procedures on convicts, because who were going to complain? And they gave them a couple of smokes. They were like, "Whatever." Jim: That's it. Woody: [crosstalk] "-anyway. Give me the shot." That's crazy. That shit wouldn't fly nowadays. Jim: No. Woody: All right, so let's take you to the next one we're going to do. And it says, "Count soars, official--" And that's spelled count soars, S-O-A-R-S, "Official sore," S-O-R-E, "Fresh fish may find no room." And then, y'all, we're talking about fresh inmates. "Today's inmate population swelled to a total of 2810, brought consternation to camp officials and worried frowns to the management last week. For the headcount is the highest here since the end of World War II, an authoritative source said. Already overcrowded at most units, Angola camp chiefs have been hard put to find sleeping room for their new borders. The count is suspected to hit 3000 by mid-year of 1955."Jim: Dang.Woody: That's crazy. Jim: Yeah.Woody: It's double that now. Jim: And they've added on--Woody: They've got a bunch of other prisons now too. They didn't have DCI and Winn and all those other prisons back then.Jim: Yeah. And so, we're still in 1954. And it says, "Here's that stuff again. Like the old saying about the character who, every time he opened his mouth, put his foot in it, last week, The Angolite carried a story about a patch of that nauseous stuff, okra, [laughs] situated just outside the fence of the woman's camp. And proving that the dames don't look into other people's backyards, as soon as she had read the account, buxom Alice said-," buxom Alice, they called her buxom Alice. "Buxom Alice said, 'Where's the okra? Why, I just love okra.' Yesterday at all units the food service department ordered for supper, you guessed it, boiled okra." Yuck. [laughter] Woody: That's funny. Jim: They didn't like that boiled okra.Woody: They're feeding them-- [crosstalk] Jim: I kind of like okra myself. Woody: [crosstalk] -especially my [unintelligible 00:38:15]-- Didn't cost them a whole lot to feed them. Jim: Buxom Alice, she liked her some okra. Woody: Right. Buxom Alice. That's funny. Well, y'all, I'm going to read you these next two. "Four men fail to rise, shine. Captain says your neck is mine. Four localites who bed down at Camp A were collared by police at that unit one day last week and charged with failing to rise and shine in the morning, as is customary in places like this. The four, Claudius Wall, Victor Stewart, Howard D. Keyes, and Robert Lewis, were escorted to the camp lockup to weigh the action of the disciplinary board. Because the quartet was asleep when they should have been awake, the camp count was snafued. Nothing will irritate a prison management as much as a fouled-up count of heads, it was said." [laughter]Woody: You messed up the count, you were going in a hole. That still happens today. And these dudes just didn't want to get up. That's funny. All right. Jim: Love it. Woody: Let me read this one. "Loader whops, hurts worker. Sammy Robinson of Camp F was hospitalized Monday for injuries when he met up with a cane sling while working on a loader near the unit. Robinson is said to have been whopped about the head by the loader slings, which broke loose." Jim: Oh, my God. Woody: "He's on the colored ward." Wow. So, I guess one of the things flew off the machine or somebody probably hit him in the head with one of those [unintelligible 00:40:02]. That's crazy. Jim: Yeah. They're not going to rat each other up. Woody: Yeah. Jim: All right, we'll go to 1955, June 18th, and this headline says "STU-", and I'm not sure what STU stands for. Woody: It's going to be a Special Lockdown Unit. Jim: There you go. "STU men stage short-lived buck. Residents of the STU, disgruntled over the quality and distribution of the food and a few other items, refused to enter their mess hall Wednesday evening, declaring a camp wide buck."Woody: Uh-oh. That's right. "When the people came, however, the usual conversation settled everything." [laughs]Woody: They're like, "I'm about to shoot your ass." Jim: The usual conversation. I love it. Woody: That's funny. So, bucking up, y'all, and I've been a part of a couple of them, but they were like, "Fuck it, we're not doing it, and we're going to protest." And Warden Burl Cain, we talked about this on an episode, came in. He said, "Give the first one--" They weren't going to work in a crawfish plant. "Give the first one a direct verbal order, and as soon as they say no, arrest them." You still get arrested. So, bucking up. And the usual conversation was had, probably the same thing, like back then, "We're going to shoot you if you don't go to work." June 18th, 1955. "A little girl wants her dog. Tuffy, where are you? A farm-wide search has failed to produce any sign of Tuffy, the six-year-old Boston terrier who was owned by plumber foreman, Harry Dwyer, who'd made his home at Camp E and claimed the yard there as his personal domain. Dwyer says he is sure Tuffy is not dead. His body would have been found by this time, he reasoned. Meanwhile, Tuffy's little mistress, eight-year-old Nickie Dwyer, sent the following message to the Angolite. 'My dog's name was Tuffy. He was eight years old at the time he disappeared. He was a faithful dog and I loved him so. I was raised with Tuffy. He was smarter than most dogs. I do have three other dogs, but they will never mean as much to me as Tuffy. Please bring him back to me, Nickie Dwyer.'" [laughter] Woody: I wonder if my momma knew her.Jim: That's crazy. So, this was apparently a plumber foreman. He had a dog that hung out at the camps.Woody: And they were all inside--[crosstalk] Jim: Daughter sent a plea to the Angolite. Woody: Let me do another real quick, says, "Stray dog round-up now in operation. In accordance with an order from the management, all stray dogs on the farm are being rounded up for disposal each evening. The drive will be in effect through July 4th." So, they were looking for--[crosstalk] Jim: Oh, my God.Woody: Stray dogs, they were killing their ass. Jim: Yeah. For disposal. Woody: Right. Jim: That's crazy.Woody: What if they cooked them? Jim: 1955, y'all. All right, "What's in a name?" This was a good one. "James Williams, who boards at Camp I and has a Yankee accent, which he acquired in Madison County, Wisconsin, wishes the management would learn that he is not James A. Williams. It's a little confusing at first, but not so very difficult once you get the hang of it from Williams. 'Their James A. Williams lives at Camp A,' he explained earnestly, as our eyes began to get glassy. 'Like last October. I almost went to the Red Hats,' he continued. 'Or November, when they called me to the visiting room and walked me into a family of total strangers,' he continued. 'It's getting so I never know who I am, much less where I am.' Williams said it happened again last week. He came within a split second of appearing before the parole board with a lawyer and four relatives, but not his relatives. 'I keep wondering what's going to happen when this other boy's time is up,' he sighed, shaking his head dolefully. It is an interesting thought at that." Woody: What was his name? Jim: James A. Williams. But they had two James A. Williams. Woody: They probably had five of them. He's from Wisconsin. Boy, you know he was doing a hard time [crosstalk] Wisconsin the other day, it was 50 degrees in the morning. I got in Louisiana, it was 100 degrees. Jim: Come on. Jesus. Well, James A. Williams, hopefully they released the guy-- Woody: [crosstalk] -Madison County where the guy was from. Jim: Wow. Woody: All right. "Busy tag plant takes short order," from June 18th, 1955. "An order for 40 large game preserve signs, each with replicas of the bobwhite quail in the corners, was turned out on time by the tag plant last week. They are on 24-hour duty producing a million new auto licensed tags for 56." Jim: Unbelievable. Woody: "Plus hundreds of steel bunks for the new prison. Sheet metal gutters and what have you." [laughter] Woody: Most of these, y'all, are just like a little bitty short articles. All right, the next one says, "Knife victim has loss of memory." I can imagine. "Hyde Walker of Camp F was hospitalized Tuesday with superficial knife wounds on his left arm and shoulder. Stricken with a lapse of memory, says he was unable to recall how he got hurt. Security officials suggested that he might have got careless while shaving."[laughter] Jim: That is great.Woody: They weren't even worried about him. Jim: And they might have been the ones that hurt him. He might have got lax while shaving. Yeah, that's crazy. Here's one I found interesting. It says, "Dental clinic cracks own record. The biggest week in the history of the dental department went on record during the seven days from June 5th through the 11th of 1955, according to their bookkeeping department. The figures show a total of 115 patients were handled. Seven plates were complete and fitted, and 12 others were put into process. There were 51 extractions, 34 marked miscellaneous, and a variety of other entries." So basically, they're pulling teeth left and right. That one week, they pulled 51 teeth. I thought that was interesting. Woody: [crosstalk] -too many feelings when they could just rip them out. Jim: Yeah. And I'll give you this one. It says, "Two use razorblade, put cells in stitches. Two unidentified colored women from Camp D were treated for minor lacerations at the emergency ward last Tuesday. Weapons used is said to have been a razorblade. Following treatment for both, they were released and returned to camp." So, they tried to commit suicide. Two women.Woody: I wonder if they got in a fight with each other. Maybe they did. Two unidentified women from Camp D were treated for minor-- They might have gotten in a knife fight with each other. Jim: Maybe.Woody: Maybe it was suicide. I don't know. All right, September 18th, 1954, y'all. "Uniforms for free personnel soon. For the first time in the history of Louisiana State Penitentiary, correctional officers will be garbed in uniforms." Wow, this is interesting. "'Hats, coats, trousers, and shirts are on order and will be issued,' Secretary Chief W. H. Maynard said Wednesday. The uniforms will be of a forest green hue with beige-colored shirts, the official said. There will be no badges, however, nor any marks of rank worn. A shoulder patch will designate the wearer as an LSP officer."Jim: How about that?Woody: 1954 is when they had got the first uniforms. That's crazy.Jim: That's crazy. It had been around since 1901 as a state prison, and it took till 1954 to get-- so they just wore whatever they wanted, I guess. Button up shirts or something.Woody: Blue jeans and something. Real quick, at the top of this page, it says, "Dixie's only prison weekly, The Angolite." And it gives Volume 2, number 41. Angola, Louisiana. September 18th, 1954, 10 pages. But then, it had this box that says "Warning!!!! Laggards are warned. Monday, September 20th is the deadline for filing your petition for the October Pardon Board. Don't get stuck out."[laughter] Jim: Even in Angola, inside of Angola, you have thieves that steal from other inmates. "Dees, the barber shop got looted. The barber is offering a reward." In this article, it says, "Yes, sir. It never rains, but when it rains, it pours. Seems a fella has to get down in bed sick to find out who his friends are. Monday, Dees, the rotund Camp E ex-barber, woke up one day at the General Hospital where he is suffering from a diabetic onset, to find out that his shop at Camp E had been burglarized. Missing, he said, is $300 worth of barber tools and unfurnished leather goods. Dees has posted a $25 reward for the arrest and conviction of the miscreant. Or, he'll pay it for the return of the goods, no questions asked."Woody: $25 back then, shit, you can always buy a car for it. Jim: Yeah. And he was basically saying, "Look, if you took it, if you just give it back to me, I'll give you $25, or I'll pay someone $25 to find out who it was."Woody: That's pretty much their craft. And each camp would have one. That's an esteemed position, most of them-- Jim: And $300 worth back then? Inside prison, that's a million dollars.Woody: Yeah. September 18th, 1954. "Free inmate menus now the same. For what is believed to be the first time on Angola, menus for free personnel and inmates were identical last week, with the exception of breakfast. The innovation is by order of food services manager, J. H. Bonnette. A huge saving is expected to result from the consolidation, the food department said. Breakfast in the inmate dining rooms are planned, but for free personnel consists of short orders only." [laughter] Woody: I guess if you're free personnel, you can order your eggs over easy or whatever, and the rest of them are just getting shit on a shingle. That is funny.Jim: Yeah. So, you actually have a choice if you're free personnel. If you're not free personnel, you get what they throw on that plate. I'm going to read a couple of these, and I'll let Woody read the last one we're going to do for you today. And this was a correction from Old Wooden Ear. And he says-- Old Wooden Ear. He says, "Irate Camp Fers have asked for a correction. Seems one Freddie Armstrong, whom The Angolite said last week had been stabbed in a humbug, was not from Camp F, but from Camp A. The Angolite is happy to make this correction and with the hope that if any others get stabbed at Camp F, they won't bleed." Woody: That's funny. Jim: Even The Angolite had to issue retractions. And then, this one says, "Escapee, guards play hide and seek. Guard lines were still out yesterday for Ulice Baker, 28, a colored Camp C trusty who was found to be missing last Saturday. Baker, serving a seven-year sentence, is thought to still be hiding somewhere on the farm." How about that? Look, they were escaping left and right back in them days.Woody: The way it was they're still trying to, but they got a whole lot more security stuff in place, razor wire and all that and the wolfdogs. All right, this one says, big headlines, "Frazier is oldest! A glance at the records settled the question once and for all who's the convict with the longest time in point of service on Angola. Records showed Charlie Frazier--" We need to talk about him. Jim: Yeah. Woody: "Records show Charlie Frazier Camp H-2 hospital steward was received in September of 1933 with one sentence of 18 years, one of 28 years, and a life term, all stacked on top of the other. Charlie is registered number 23409, is the oldest on the books. His discharge date, however, is still 20 years away. The book says December 3rd, 1974." Now, look in the DOC, you're known by your inmate numbers. Now, they're alone. Fucking that means he was the 23409th inmate when he came in, ever to go to the gates of Angola. After the Civil War when they started.Jim: And probably one of the most notorious-- really, in American history, there's a whole big, long story for Charlie Frazier, and we will tell his story one day. He's a tough one to research because this was so long ago, but I'm going to come up with some stuff for him. Just two quick short ones, and then we got to wrap it up for today. This one says, "Toe whacked off. Andrew Peters, a resident of the STU, lost the third toe on his right foot via surgery last week. The operation was performed at the Angola General Hospital." So, something happened, he had to whack his toe off. Woody: He had diabetes or something. Jim: And then, the one below it says, "Three and a hassle. Three juveniles at H-1 were sporting an assortment of moused eyes, puffed lips, and other sores today as the result of a free-for-all hassle last Tuesday. The trio, all of whom were unidentified, were given first aid, a piece of steak for their eyes and sent home--" Woody: And they run a piece of steak with a baloney. Jim: [laughs] Yeah, there was no steak, I can promise you.Woody: We need to look in that too, because they're housing the juveniles there now and they're so fucking pissed off about it. But [crosstalk] back then they had women and juveniles too. Woody: Yeah, they sure did. And so, we'll be bringing you stuff on that. Appreciate all you patrons out there that follow. Look, we dropped a bonus episode Monday just for patrons, where we covered the first 20 death row inmates that are requesting clemency and got those hearings. We went into an in-depth breakdown of each of those, dropped that on Monday. So, if you're not a patron, join Patreon, you can get that. Another quick announcement, Apple Podcast. For those that don't do Patreon for whatever reason, we're now on Apple Podcast as a subscription option as well. You just go to your Apple Podcast app, and you'll see it. I'm going to label all those. It'll say Apple Podcast Bonus Episode.Woody: Yeah. Also, what happens on Apple Podcast, anytime you go to the Apple Podcast player, and you type in "Bloody Angola," it'll pull it up and it'll give you, like, I think it's free trial for whatever, for seven days. It'll list episodes and everything else. Pretty cool deal, I think. Jim: If you're not and you want to try it, there's a free trial going on. Woody: Some people [crosstalk] either they don't know what Patreon is or they don't want to use it. I have that on the regular Real Life Real Crime. Jim: Well, some people want-- and they want to listen to their podcast through one particular app and not have to go different places. So, Apple Podcast enables that. Woody: So, if you like it and you want to try it and then get your free seven-day trial and go listen to some bonus episodes because we got a ton of them. Jim: We got a ton. Woody: And thank y'all and we love you so much. We appreciate each and every one of you. Jim: Yeah. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola. Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim and Woody: Peace. [Bloody Angola theme]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy