Podcasts about jessica you

“In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her.”How do you feel when you meet with your provider? Are you excited for your appointments? How does your body react? Are you tense or calm and relaxed? Jessica's first birth began with an induction that she consented to but didn't really want. Her waters were artificially broken, and her baby just was not in a great position. After over 4 hours of pushing and multiple vacuum attempts, Jessica consented to a Cesarean. Listen to Jessica's VBAC story to find out what she did when she realized at 37 weeks that her provider was NOT actually VBAC-supportive.Sometimes difficult situations actually work out even better than we hoped!How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, Jessica, to the show. I am so excited that you are here and excited to hear your stories and actually talk a little bit more about what you do. Do you do it for a living, or is this just your passion project or whatever they call it? Is it your side job?Jessica: It's on the side. It's volunteer. My main job is a stay-at-home mom right now. Meagan: Yes. You're homeschooling, right? Jessica: I am. Meagan: Oh my gosh. One of my best friends homeschools. I just praise you guys. Homeschooling is legit. It is very hard. That seems so hard. Jessica: It's definitely a lifestyle. It's different. It's not for everybody, but it's definitely for us. My daughter is only 5 so we are just getting used to it. Meagan: So Kindergarten?Jessica: She just turned 5 a couple of weeks ago, so we are technically doing 4-K right now. We are just getting into it. I'm still wondering every day, “Am I doing everything I should be?” I know as it goes on, I will get more comfortable and confident with it. Meagan: Yes, you will. That's what I've seen with my friend. She was like, “This is what feels right. This is what we are going to do.” It took a little bit of a learning curve, then each kid added in, but she kills it. Yes, you are just a stay-at-home mom, but a full-time teacher. Holy cow. That's amazing. Then yeah, you are doing La Leche League. Jessica: Yes. I have been a leader now for 2.5 years, just over that. I became certified. I think it was on my due date. I was trying to get everything done before my toddler was born. It's been going really great. I really like it. Meagan: Yes. Tell us more about it because when I was– this was in 2014– pregnant with my second daughter. That's when I heard about La Leche League. Tell us more about it and why someone would want to find their local leader, and then what all the benefits are and how to find them. Jessica: Sure. I first heard about La Leche League when my oldest was maybe about 9 months, so right away in my breastfeeding journey, I had no idea about it. I wish I had because it would have been great to have a community of support. I started feeling really passionate about breastfeeding and knew I wanted to help other moms with it because it can feel really isolating, especially because it was in the middle of the pandemic. I started researching ways that moms can help other moms with breastfeeding because I had no other background in it. I'm not a nurse. I didn't work in the labor world. I just stumbled upon it, and I lived in Madison at the time. I saw that Madison had a chapter. They weren't doing meetings at the time because everything was virtual. But I just reached out, and I said, “I want to be a leader. Tell me what I need to do.” They emailed me back, and I got in touch with another local leader there who had been there for a while. She was surprised. She was like, “You want to be a leader, but you don't even know what we do. You've never been to a meeting.” I just said, “Yes. That is what I want to do.” It was kind of a long process to become a leader because everything was virtual. They didn't know how to go about that. Meagan: Yeah. Jessica: So it took a little bit of a long time to become accredited as a leader. Meagan: Does it now or is it in person? Did it stay virtual? For someone who may want to?Jessica: I think everything is back to in-person. At least where I live now, Madison I know is back to in-person now too. Everything is probably running a little bit more smoothly now in terms of if you are interested in becoming a leader. Basically what leaders do is that we get some training within La Leche League, but we are your cheerleaders. We are here to support you. We are the middle ground between if we need to refer you somewhere for some additional help if it's beyond our scope of practice of basic breastfeeding positioning, latching, or if you have questions of, “My baby is doing this. Is it normal?” That's what we do. We have support groups every month for anybody to really join. Meagan: Awesome. Jessica: It's fun. Meagan: Where can someone find it if they're wanting to learn more? When it comes to breastfeeding, it sounds weird because you don't have your baby yet, so why are we talking about breastfeeding? Why are we thinking about it? But I really believe that connecting before we have our babies with an IBCLC or a La Leche group is so important before you have your baby. If someone is looking, where can they find information or try to search for a chapter in their area? Jessica: You can just look up your state La Leche League. There should be a website that has all of the local chapters. They are all over the world, so you should be able to find somebody near you. Even if there's not one near you, you can contact anybody. Let's say they are 2 hours away. You can still call or text or email. They'll usually, if you want to do something more in person, you can do some type of Zoom meeting. You can definitely find anybody to talk to. You're right. It's really important to get support before you even start breastfeeding if you know that's something you want to do. I always say that breastfeeding is natural, but it doesn't always come naturally. You don't know what to do in the beginning unless you talk to somebody. Meagan: Yes. We will make sure to have the website linked in the show notes too, so if anyone is wanting to go search, definitely go check it out. Okay, now we are going to give a little teaser of what your episode is going to be about today. So, with your C-section, give us a little teaser of what your C-section was for. Jessica: So, my first birth went really smoothly and my pregnancy. I really liked my doctor. I really liked the hospital. It was a group of OBs of all women. I met with each of them. I really liked all of them, to be honest with you. They were all very supportive of whatever you wanted to do.Meagan: Which is awesome. Jessica: Yes, it is. I knew I wanted to have a vaginal birth. That was all I really knew, but I was also really young, I think. I was 23 for most of my pregnancy. I didn't really educate myself beyond my doctor's appointments. I trusted them to pretty much tell me what I needed to know, and that was it. That was my bad. Meagan: Yeah. Hey, listen. That is something I can relate to so much. I was also in my young 20s and just went in. Whatever they said, or whatever my app said, is what happened. I think that's a little tip right there that says, “Let's not do that.” Let's not do that. Then for your VBAC, you had a bait and switch. I'm really excited, when we get to that point, to talk about bait and switch because it is something that happens. It can feel so good and then feel so wrong within minutes. It's really frustrating, but I want to talk more about that in just a minute. We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to hurry and read that, then get into Jessica's story. This reviewer is by diabeticmamawarrior. It says, “A podcast to educate the mind, heal the heart, and strengthen the soul.” It says, “Hi. I am writing this podcast from Seattle. We are currently pregnant with my second baby due in March of 2022.” This was a little bit ago. It says, “My first son was born at 28 weeks via classical Cesarean due to severe IUGR.” For anyone who doesn't know IUGR, that is intrauterine growth restriction.“--and after hearing I would never be able to VBAC, I decided to do as much educated research as I could and to find my options was truly needed. I am also a Type 1 Diabetic and have successfully found an amazing midwife who not only feels comfortable and confident assisting in care through my pregnancy with my diabetes, but also with my special scar, and we are aiming for a successful VBAC. I am also receiving concurrent care with an OB/GYN as well to make sure appropriate monitoring of baby looks good throughout pregnancy. Listening to this podcast was one of the first resources I found, and it was a total GAME CHANGER.” It says, “Thank you, beautiful women, who bravely and shamelessly share your stories so that other women can also feel confident in making empowered decisions for their baby and their body. I am soon to join the legacy of women who have fearlessly VBAC'd happy and healthy babies. Much love, Ellen”. Meagan: Wow. What a beautiful review. Jessica: That was powerful. Meagan: Yes. What a beautiful review. That was a couple of years ago, so Ellen, if you are still listening, please reach out to us and let us know how things went. Okay, girl. It is your turn. It is your turn to share, just like what Ellen was saying, your beautiful stories, and empower other Women of Strength all over the world. Jessica: That review just reminded me that a long time ago, I reviewed the podcast, and you read it on one of the episodes. Meagan: Did we?Jessica: We did. I remember thinking, “This is so cool. I wonder if I could be on someday.” I'm sure you hear this all the time, but it's very surreal being here knowing I listened to this podcast to help me heal. I'm just super excited to share my story. Meagan: I am so glad that you are here, and I'm so glad that we were able to read your review. We love reading reviews. It is so fun when we can hear the review, hear the journey, and then now here it is hearing the stories. Jessica: Yes. Meagan: Yes. Okay, well I'd love to turn the time over to you. Jessica: Like I said, I was introducing my story with my first. I just clicked through a birth course breastfeeding course that the hospital provided for me. I clicked through it to get it done and to check it off my list. Meagan: Birth education– yes, I did. Jessica: That's exactly what I did. I'm prepared, whatever. I'm just going to go into this, and everything will happen like it's supposed to. Mentally, everything was going well in my pregnancy. I wasn't super eager to give birth. I wanted to wait to go into labor on my own. I think what started to bother me or what made me a little bit more antsy was when I was 37 weeks. I agreed to have my cervix checked for dilation, and I was 3 centimeters already. I was so excited, and the doctor said, “I don't even think you're going to make it to your due date,” which made me think, “Wow. I'm going to have this baby in the next 2 weeks. I'm not even going to make it to my due date. This is so exciting.” If any of your doctors ever tell you that, don't let it get into your head because that doesn't mean anything if you are dilated. I was 3 centimeters continuously. Meagan: Yeah. You can walk around at 6 centimeters, not even kidding you. My sister-in-law was at 6 centimeters for weeks, and nothing was happening. She was just at 6 centimeters. It can happen when you are just walking around. Try not to let them get into your head, or to get nervous when you're like, “I could have a baby at any second.” It gets in our heads, and then when we don't have a baby, it's infuriating and defeating. Jessica: That is pretty much what happened. When I got to my 39-week appointment, I was still 3 centimeters. I just expressed how I was frustrated. I was tired of being pregnant. My doctor said, “Well, let's set up your induction.” I had never even thought of being induced at that point. It was never mentioned. It never crossed my mind. It sounded so intriguing at that moment to just get this over with. I don't want to be pregnant anymore. My sisters had been induced, and they had a good experience. It will go the same for me. Everything in my head was telling me, “Don't do this. You know you don't want this,” but I did it anyway because I had it in my mind that I should have had my baby already anyway based on what they told me a couple of weeks ago, so it would go so smoothly. She said, “You are a great candidate. You are already 3 centimeters.” We scheduled it. I think it was that Friday I went. It was Monday, on Labor Day, that we had my induction scheduled for. I didn't have a lot of time to even process that. Meagan: Yeah. Did they say how they wanted to do it, or did they just say, “Come in. Have a baby”?Jessica: They briefly told me that they would start with Pitocin and see how my body responded to that. They would probably break my water which is exactly how it happened anyway. Meagan: Yeah.Jessica: Yeah.They started me with Pitocin at 3:00 PM. They kept increasing it, then by 6:00 PM, my body was just not responding to it. I didn't feel anything. The doctor who was on call wasn't my normal doctor, but I saw her a couple of times. I was comfortable with her. She came in and said, “Well, we could break your water. Is that what you want to do?” I said, “Sure. If that's what you think we need to do, let's do it.” Meagan: Yeah, I'm here to have a baby. What's going to get me there?Jessica: Yeah. She was head down, so I thought, “What could go wrong? She's already head down.” I didn't know at the time that just because she was head down doesn't mean she's in a great position. She wasn't. She was– what do they call it?Meagan: Posterior? Jessica: ROT. Meagan: Right occiput transverse. Okay, so looking to the side. Sometimes, when we say transverse, a lot of people think the body is transverse which is a transverse lie, but ROT, LOT, left or right occiput transverse, means the baby's head is looking to the side, and sometimes, that can delay labor or cause irregular patterns because our baby is just not quite rotated around or tucked. They are looking to the side. Jessica: Right. That was pretty much what the obstacle was because when they broke my water, she engaged that way, so her head never was able to turn properly which we didn't know yet. I feel like the doctors could have known that because aren't they supposed to be able to feel and know maybe a little bit of where they are? Meagan: Yeah. So providers can. They can internally, and it depends on how far dilated you are. If you were still 3 centimeters, probably not as well, but at 3 centimeters AROM, where we are artificially breaking it, that's not ideal. Usually, the baby is at a higher station at that point too. I call it opening the floodgates. We get what we get however that baby decides to come down, especially if baby is higher up and not well-applied to the cervix.If baby is looking transverse and hasn't been able to rotate right during labor, then they come down like that, and then we have a further obstacle to navigate because we've got to move baby's head. I will say that sometimes a baby might be looking transverse and mainly through pushing, a provider can sometimes rotate a baby's head internally vaginally, but you have to be fully dilated and things like that. Can they feel through the bag of waters? If they can feel a good head, yes. Sometimes they can. Sometimes they can't, but again, there are all of these things that as a doula anyway, I help my clients run through a checklist if they are going to choose to break their water. Sometimes within your situation, I'd be like, “Maybe let's wait.” But their view was, “Let's get labor going. We are starting Pitocin. The body's not responding,” which we know is a number-one sign that the body isn't ready. Sometimes we still can break water with better head application and with the water gone, it can speed labor up. That's where their mind was. Their mind probably wasn't, what position is this baby in? Where is this baby at? What station is this baby at? It's like, let's get this baby's head applied to the cervix. Jessica: Yes. I mean, it did work. As soon as my water broke, I immediately when into active labor. The Pitocin contractions were very awful. I felt them immediately because not only did my body start going into labor, but then the Pitocin also was making it worse. Meagan: Yes. Yes. Jessica: So I begged for an epidural right away even though I knew that's not what I wanted. I didn't do a lot of preparing for labor, but I know I didn't want an epidural right away. I remember the very sweet nurse I had saying, “Do you want me to run the bath for you?” I said, “Are you crazy? That is not what I need right now.” Meagan: She's like, “I'm trying to help you with your birth preferences.” J: I know. She was so nice. I apologized to her after later on when I saw her. That was the head space I was in. I just needed that pain to be gone. They ended up turning the Pitocin off eventually because my body just did what it needed to do on its own. Meagan: Good. Jessica: I didn't get much rest after that. I couldn't really sleep. I was too excited. But it wasn't very long until I was ready to push after that. I think at about 7:00 PM, I got the epidural, and at midnight, I was ready to push. I kept trying and trying. 4.5 hours went by until she was just not coming over. I don't know if it was my pelvic bone or something. That's when we knew she was not going to turn. They suggested that we try the vacuum. I didn't know what that was. That was very traumatic because the lights were bright. Everyone was in there. I remember my doctor saying, “Okay, we have one more attempt with this vacuum, and that's our last attempt.” Of course, it didn't work because in my mind, I knew it was my last chance. It was not going to work, and it didn't. I was really upset after that. I remember crying saying, “I don't want a C-section.” I was really afraid of it. But, that is just what we had to do to get her out at that point after attempting the vacuum. I remember being wheeled down to the OR and just being so tired and not knowing how I was going to take care of a newborn after having surgery and being so tired. I had been up for 24 hours. The C-section went fine. I was out of it though. I was passing out here and there just being so tired. They had to tell me to actually look up. “Your baby's here. Look up.” I remember opening up my eyes going, “What?” I was forgetting what I was doing. Meagan: Out of it. Jessica: Yeah. I was very much out of it. But after that in the hospital, I wasn't too upset about having a C-section. I was just so excited about having my baby. It really didn't hit me until we were on the way home from the hospital. I started crying and was so upset. I felt like my experience was stolen from me because I felt like  I was so mad at my doctor for bringing up an induction at that point knowing if she didn't, I would have never asked for one anyway. I had a lot of regrets about everything. In those couple of weeks after having her, your hormones are very up and down anyway. One moment, I would be fine. One moment, I would be really, really upset crying about it. I wanted to redo her birth so badly that it almost made me want another baby. “If we just have another kid, we can try again,” even though I had this 3-week-old next to me. Meagan: Yeah. Jessica: I was not thinking very clearly. Meagan: You were craving a different experience. That's just part of your processing. Jessica: Yes. And looking back, I wonder if I was struggling with some PTSD because I would lie there at night not being able to sleep, and I would suddenly smell when they were cauterizing the wound. I would suddenly smell that again and think I was back in the OR. It wasn't very fun. Meagan: Yeah. It's weird how sometimes the experience can hit you in all different stages and in different ways, but right after, you're like, “No. No, no, no. I need something different. Let's have another baby right now. Let's do this.” So once you did become ready to have another baby, what did that look like? What did that prep look like? Did you switch doctors? You liked your whole practice. How did that look for you?Jessica: Well, we moved. I knew I had to find another doctor. I would have anyway in Madison. I would have gone with a group of midwives that somebody I knew had a good experience with, and after listening to the podcast, I wanted a midwife. But unfortunately, where we moved, we live in Green Bay now. I was so limited on which provider I could go with. In one hospital, one group, that was all I could do locally. I couldn't go with the hospital that everybody was recommending or the midwives that everybody was recommending for a VBAC. Meagan: Why couldn't you go there?Jessica: My insurance was very limited. It still is. We can only go to this one hospital and one facility for doctors. Meagan: Okay, so it was insurance restrictions. Yeah, not necessarily a lack of support in your area. It just was insurance which is another conversation for a later date. Stop restricting everybody. Jessica: I was very surprised because when we were in Madison, I could go wherever I wanted and see whoever I wanted. I ended up just choosing somebody. I liked her. She was initially very supportive of having a VBAC. I had mentioned it in my very first appointment that this was what I want. She said, “Oh, I'm so excited for you. This is going to be great.” I even mentioned that I was still breastfeeding my daughter when I was pregnant. They just seemed very supportive of all things natural and all things birth. Meagan: Everything. Jessica: Yeah. There were no issues whatsoever. I had already hired my doula when I was 6 weeks pregnant. I had already talked to them before I had even saw my doctor. I told them about how I was really limited and this was where I had to go, but I felt very supported knowing I had a doula and knowing I had somebody on my side It didn't really bother me at the time that I just had to pick whatever doctor I could. This was also a practice where the doctor I had wasn't going to be probably who I would give birth with. That also didn't bother me because I thought, “I have a doula. I have support. I know after listening to this podcast what I need to do to defend myself if that time were to come.” Meagan: Advocate for yourself, yeah. You felt more armed. Jessica: I did. I really did. I ended up seeing a chiropractor as well which was very helpful throughout my pregnancy. I loved going to the chiropractor. Not only did it help get her in a good position, but I also just didn't really feel body aches as much as I did, so there were a couple of benefits to going there. I definitely recommend a chiropractor. Meagan: I agree. I didn't go until my VBAC baby. I started going at 18 weeks, and I'm like, “Why didn't I do this with the other babies?” It was just amazing. Jessica: Yeah. It really is. But my doctor's appointments this time were very different. They were very rushed. They felt robotic. “How are you feeling? Great. Let's get the heartbeat. Any questions? No.” I really kept my questions for my doulas anyway because I really trusted them. I don't know. I didn't feel like I had many questions anyway because I knew what I wanted. I knew I wanted to show up to the hospital basically ready to push. One of the red flags, I will say, that looking back now with this provider that I had initially is that she never asked for any type of birth plan. She knew I wanted a VBAC, and I thought it was a good thing that she wasn't really asking details. I felt like, “Oh, she's letting me do my thing.” But looking back, I think it was just because she knew that's not what was going to happen. She knew. Meagan: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. We've had providers who have told people here in Utah. The client will say, “Hey, I really want to talk about my birth preferences.” The provider will say, “You're really early. We don't need to talk about that right now. We could talk about that later.” Or, “Hey, I was thinking I want to talk about this. Can we talk about that?” “No, not today. It's fine. Whatever you want.” Then it comes, and we'll hear more about your experience. I'm sure it will relate to a lot of people's bait-and-switch stories. Jessica: Yeah. They sound so supportive in the moment, and then it's not looking back. It continued on through my whole pregnancy. Even when I was 35 weeks, she suggested a cervical dilation check. I denied it at that point. I thought it was too early. 35 weeks is very early. Meagan: 35 weeks? Yeah. Jessica: I'm really glad that I stood up for myself and said no, because I was having one of those moments of, do I just do it anyway? I said no, and she was very fine with it. She said, “That's fine. You don't have to if you don't want to. We don't have to.” I also thought that was a good sign. Meagan: You're like, “Yes. If we don't have to, why are we suggesting it in the first place?” But I can also see where you're like, “Well, sweet. She's respecting my wishes. I didn't want to. She's saying, ‘Okay'.” Jessica: Exactly. But I made the mistake of agreeing to it at my next appointment because my curiosity got the best of me. I knew that it wasn't important for me to be dilated, but I was trying to compare it to my last pregnancy. At 37 weeks, I was 3 centimeters with my first. I wonder if I'm going to have a different experience this time. Let's see where we're at. I was at 0. I just thought, “That's totally normal. I have a lot of time left.” Her demeanor changed very much. It was like at my appointments before, she was a different person now. Meagan: Oh. Jessica: She said, “Well, if we're not showing any signs of labor by 40 weeks, we need to schedule your C-section.” Meagan: Oh no. Jessica: She must have noticed I was surprised. I said, “But I don't want a C-section. Did you not remember that I'm going to have a VBAC?” She said, “Well, you don't want to risk your baby's life.” Meagan: Bleh. Barf. No. Jessica: Yes. Yes. I knew that was just a scare tactic. I luckily was not phased by it. I was educated. I mentioned something along the lines of, “Well, wouldn't we try to induce me before we jump ahead to the C-section? There's no medical need.” My pregnancies were so boring. There was nothing that would indicate anything, not even an induction, but I thought, “Why not even just mention that before a C-section?” She said something like, “There are too many risks involved.” That was the end of the conversation on her end. She pretty much wrapped it up and said, “It's pretty slippery out there. Be careful,” and walked out. Yeah. The conversation was over. In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her. I went back to the parking lot. I was crying. I texted my doulas right away what happened. I said, “I need to figure something out very quickly. I'm 37 weeks. I know I can't go back to her. Can you please help me figure something out?” They were so, so extremely helpful with helping me figure out my options. I thought that at this point– in the beginning of my pregnancy, I knew, “I'll just stand up for myself. I know what I want,” but when you are very big and pregnant, and you are very vulnerable, you don't want to do all of that arguing. You just want somebody who is going to support you. I just knew I couldn't go back to her. I didn't have the energy to try to defend myself or advocate for myself. I just needed somebody who was already going to support my decisions. They encouraged me to look a little bit further out of Green Bay which I didn't initially want to do. I wanted the hospital to be close. I had a 2-year-old. I didn't want to be far away from her. But knowing I had limited options, I looked a little bit farther out. I texted them, “Hey, there is this doctor who I can go to in Neenah. It's pretty far. I said her name. I don't know if I'm supposed to say doctors' names. Meagan: You can. Yeah. You can. People will actually love it so they can go find support themselves. Jessica: Yeah. I said, “There is this doctor, Dr. Swift, who is down in Neenah. That's the only one who is really popping up on my insurance who I can go to.” They immediately texted back, “You need to go see her. She's amazing.” My doula had actually had her VBAC with Dr. Swift. They were like, “You need to go see her. This your other option.” Meagan: Oh, Sara Swift is on our list of providers. Jessica: She is. She's amazing. Meagan: She is. Okay, so you're like, “I've got this doctor's name.” Jessica: I called them to make myself an appointment, and I wasn't able to get in until the following Friday. It would have been after I was 38 weeks. I told doula– Meagan: That's when you had your last baby, right?Jessica: No, actually my last baby was at 39 weeks, but I didn't know what was going to happen. I told them, and my doula was actually personal friends with her. She said, “No, that's not going to work. I'm going to text her, and I'm going to get you in sooner.” I think it was a Wednesday at that time. I was able to go see her Friday. Yeah. Meagan: A week earlier than you would have been able to. Jessica: Yeah. I helped me to feel more relieved knowing that if I had gone into labor before that next appointment, I would have known where to go. I would have had a doctor established. I was very, very relieved to see her. It was such a different experience than my other doctors. I had to bring my two-year-old with me, and at that point, she was getting antsy, so Dr. Swift actually sat on the ground with my daughter and was coloring with her while we were talking to keep her busy. I just remember thinking, “There's no other doctor out there who would do this for a very pregnant patient.” It felt very much like a conversation between friends. It didn't feel like a robotic type of conversation I had with my previous doctor. She very much upfront said to me, “Our hospital has VBAC policies. Here they are. You can deny anything you want. They're not going to allow you to eat food, but if you say you want to eat food, you can eat. They're going to want continuous fetal monitoring, but if that's not what you want, tell them what you want.” It felt like she just was supportive of what I wanted to do. She said something along the lines of, “I'm going to trust you and your body to make the decisions that you need to, but also know that if I need to step in, trust that I'm going to do what I need to.” It felt so mutual there. I was so excited to go back and see her every week. I'm actually kind of mad that I waited that long to see her. Meagan: Yeah. Mhmm. I'm sure you felt like you were breathing in a whole different way. Jessica: I was. I felt very excited. The drive was longer, but it didn't even matter at that point. I went from a 15-minute drive to 45 and it didn't feel like there was any difference. It was all worth it. Meagan: I agree. It's sometimes daunting with that drive or the time, but you guys, it's so worth it. If you can make it work, make it work. I'm so glad. Okay, yeah. So you found this provider. Everything was feeling good. Jessica: It was feeling great. I actually ended up going past my due date. Meagan: Okay. Jessica: I was feeling a little bit– not defeated– I wanted to make it to my due date because I wanted to make it there with my first. I was excited when I got to my due date, and then I thought, “Okay, when is this actually going to happen? I've got a two-year-old.” My in-laws were coming up to watch her when we were going to the hospital. They live 2.5 hours away. I was starting to worry about, how is this all going to work out? But it really did. I felt my very first contraction two days after my due date. It was a Friday night at 6:30. We were getting my daughter ready for bed, and I felt that first contraction. I knew it was different than Braxton Hicks. I just knew, but I don't even know to say if that's when my labor started because that continued all throughout the weekend every 15 minutes. It was not a fun weekend. I kept thinking things were going to pick up, and then they would die down. Meagan: Prodromal labor maybe. Jessica: Yeah, I think so. At one point, I had my doula come over in the middle of the night. I didn't know when to go to the hospital. I didn't know if it was time or whatever. She came to my house in the middle of the night just to help me with the Miles Circuit and just the different position changes I could do. I believe that was on that Friday night that I started labor. I was also able to get into the chiropractor that weekend. They were closed, but again, my doula was very close friends with the chiropractor and texted, “Hey, Jessica could really use an adjustment. She's not in labor, but it's not progressing. Can you help her?” I went to go see them on Saturday and on Sunday just to get things moving. She was in a really great position. Everybody could feel that she was just in the perfect position. It was just that these contractions could not get closer together no matter what I tried. Something told me, “Hey, you need your water broken for this to progress,” because I couldn't do it anymore mentally or physically. I was exhausted. I didn't want to initially because I knew that's what prevented me from having the birth that I wanted in the first place with my first experience, but something also told me, “Hey, you need to go do this.” My intuition was super strong in those moments where I knew. My intuition was strong enough to switch doctors that late in my pregnancy. There wasn't another option. This time also, my intuition told me, “You have to go in, and they have to break your water.” I knew Dr. Swift would be supportive of that because she was supporting any type of birth plan I really wanted. She told me at any point, I could be induced, but that she wouldn't bring it up again. It was my decision. On Sunday night after we got my daughter to bed, we drove to the hospital. We let them know we were coming. Our doula met us there, and we just told them our plans. Dr. Swift, I remember, said, “Well, if I break your water now, you're so exhausted from the whole weekend. Do you want to try sleeping for a little bit and we will do it in the morning?” I said, “I can't sleep. I'm having these contractions every 15 minutes.” It was really funny. She said, “Well if you want to sleep, I'll give you something to help you sleep.” If anybody has ever met her or knows her, she's got a great personality. It was just funny in that moment. It's what I needed in that moment to have a good laugh. I was like, “Yes. Give me anything I need right now to rest just a little bit before the morning.” In the morning, she came back in around 8:00 or 8:30. I don't remember what time it was. She said, “Yep. Let's do this.” They double-checked me again to make sure she was in a great position. At that point, I was actually 4 centimeters. I forgot to bring that up. Meagan: Yay, okay. Great. Jessica: Yes, so those contractions I was experiencing over the weekend were productive. I felt better about that. I didn't want to break my water with being one of two centimeters. I felt good. Again, my intuition was telling me, “You need to do this.” Yeah. They did, and once again, it immediately put me into active labor. My doula was helping me with counterpressure, then they ended up running a bath for me which was very helpful. I was skeptical. I did not think that was going to work. When they were filling it, I remember thinking, “This is a waste of my time. This is not going to work,” but it was very helpful. At one point in the bath, I just remember feeling, “Okay, now I have to get out and I have to start moving around.” As soon as I got up, I just remember feeling things intensify. I got that feeling in my head like, “I can't do this anymore.” I knew that at that point, it was getting close because of that feeling of, “I can't do this anymore.” Meagan: Yeah, mhmm. Jessica: I had just a moment of weakness and I said, “I want an epidural right now.” Even though I knew in my mind that it was too late, I couldn't help but ask them for that epidural. Thankfully, my doula knew that's not what I wanted, so she helped prolong that process. She said, “Well, why don't we start with a bag of fluids and we'll see how it goes from there? We can ask them, but they might be busy.” That's exactly what I needed. I knew that's not what I wanted. Meagan: She knew that, and she knew how to advocate for you, and she knew you well enough what you needed to prolong it. Jessica: Yes. I'm very thankful for that because she could have said, “All right, let's get it right now.” But she knew and I had made it very clear that was not what I wanted to do. We started with a bag of fluids, and at that point, I could feel my body start to push itself. This was about 3 hours after my water was broken. It was a very quick process from then until that moment. While I was pushing, the anesthesiologist did come in the room. I remember the anesthesiologist did come in the room, and I remember he said something like, “Who's ready for the epidural?” My doctor said, “No, we're having a baby. Get out.” He came in in the middle of me pushing, and I feel like I scared every other mom there with how loud I was, but I couldn't help it. Meagan: Sometimes you just have to roar your baby out. Listen, it's okay.Jessica: I really did. I really did roar her out in 20 minutes. Meagan: Wow. Jessica: After that, I don't remember feeling any other pain. The pressure was gone, and I remember just feeling like, oh my gosh. I did it. She's here, and I get my skin-to-skin with her which I didn't get the first time. I get to have this experience. I can't believe I actually did it. Meagan: And you did. Jessica: I did. Meagan: You did it. Jessica: There is so much more than you just having that VBAC. Throughout the journey, you grew. You grew as an individual. You grew as a mom listening to your intuition. You really, really grew, and then to have that baby again placed on your chest, oh, how amazing and how redemptive. Meagan: It was so redemptive and healing. In that moment, I didn't feel any type of way about my C-section anymore. I wasn't upset about it. I really had a feeling that it happened for a reason because if it didn't, I don't think I would have tried to educate myself about birth. I would have probably done it a second time, an induction, if it went well the first time. I also don't think I would have fought so hard the first time to breastfeed because I felt like I had to make it work. I didn't get the birth I wanted, so I had to make this work at least. I personally think that my C-section happened for a reason the first time. In that moment, I remember feeling a wave of, “I'm not upset anymore. I got this experience.”Meagan: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I kind of had that same view to a point. I do feel a little grumpy with how my births went because knowing what I know now, I am realizing that they didn't need to happen that way. I likely never needed a Cesarean ever. I just probably didn't. But, it's the same thing like you. I wouldn't have focused so hard on this. I wouldn't have done this. I would not be the person I am today. I would not be the birth doula that I am today. I would not be the podcaster today. I don't think I would have ever started a podcast on any other topic because I'm so deeply passionate about this topic and birth and helping have better experiences, so I really hold onto those experiences and cherish them. It sounds weird because it wasn't the birth we wanted, but it's what brought us here today. Jessica: Yeah, exactly. I also wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't have my C-section. I don't think I would have been interested in birth. I love it now. I think in the future, I would love to be a doula. I just recently took an exam to become a certified lactation consultant. I haven't gotten my results back yet, but I don't think I would have gone down that path yet either if I wouldn't have had my C-section and fought so hard for breastfeeding to work. I felt like I found my passion within that circumstance that was very unfortunate, and it shouldn't have happened, but it did. Meagan: But it did, and you've grown from it. We want to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. If this podcast is for VBAC moms, it's just as much for first-time moms in my opinion because we obviously have an issue with the Cesarean rate. We do. It's a serious issue. Jessica: Yeah, it is. Meagan: But with that said, I encourage you if you are listening, and maybe you haven't been able to process your past experience yet, or you are fresh out of it, and it's very thick, and it's very heavy and dark because we know that can sometimes be that way, I hope and I encourage you to keep listening, to keep learning, and to keep growing, because that darkness will become light again. Those feelings– I don't know about go away, but they will lift. I don't know how to explain it. Jessica: You might feel different about it. You might feel different about it than you did originally. Meagan: Your perspective will change. It's going to take time. It's going to take processing. It's going to take healing. It's going to be finding the education, finding the right team, finding the right support system, but it is possible. It is really, really, really possible, and take Jessica and my word right now, because we really have been there. We really understand so many of the feelings. I know that we all process feelings differently, and we're all in different places, especially depending on the types of births that we had. I know that there are way more traumatic experiences that happen out there, but this community is here for you.We love you. We are here to support you. Keep listening to the stories. Find the groups. Find the healing, and know that it is possible to step out of this space and to grow. It's weird to think, but one day, you're going to look back and say, “I might be grateful. I might be grateful that happened.” Yeah. Like I said, I'm not happy. I'm not happy it happened, but I'm going to cherish that. I'm going to try and flip it. I've made it a positive experience that it's brought me to where I am today. It's brought me to be in a place where I can share my story just like Jessica and all of the other Women of Strength before her to help women feel inspired and to avoid those future devastations and unfortunate situations. Jessica: Yeah. Don't let anybody try to tell you not to feel a certain way about it because I've had plenty of people tell me, “But you're healthy. But you have a healthy baby, you can try again next time.” I just said, “You don't understand. You're not in my position. I know there are people who do understand me.” Most of you who are listening will understand that yes, you have a healthy baby and you're fine, but it was still not what you wanted. That experience is so personal. You want what you want. Meagan: You want what you want, and you're not selfish for wanting it. You're really not. I think that's really important because sometimes I think we are made to feel that we are selfish for wanting a different experience especially out there in the world, a lot of people say, “Why would you want that? Why would you risk that? You are selfish. Just be grateful for what you have. Just be grateful that you do have your baby and that you and your baby are okay.” No. No. The answer is no. Last but not least, I really wanted to share a little bit more about the bait and switch and how to recognize that because you guys, it can be hard to recognize. I don't ever believe that these providers are sneakily trying to fool us, but maybe they are. I don't know. I'll tell you, they do. They do fool us. I don't know if that's because our judgment is clouded or what, but I think it's important to feel that inside. What does your heart do when your provider walks in? What do your hands do? Do they clam up? Do they clench? Do they freeze? What does your body do? Are your shoulders rising up? Are they relaxed? Does your face have a smile on it? Really tune into who your provider is making you be. Are they making you a tense ball, or are they making you relaxed and excited?I mean, really Jessica, the way you are talking about Dr. Swift, it sounds like she is amazing. She's like, “Here. Here are the policies. I want you to know these. These are things that you are going to be up against. You might have to fight for intermittent monitoring instead of continuous. You might have to fight for this and this, but hey. I'm here. I'm on your side. We have these policies, but I'm here. Use your voice.” That was just so amazing. Jessica: It was amazing. I'm sad that I'm not going to have another child because I don't get to go see her for appointments then. I really wish I would have met her sooner. That's the type of doctor your need is when you actually want to go see them. That's a big difference. You're not thinking ahead of your appointment, “Well, I wonder if there is anybody else.” Meagan: Okay, I love that you said that. Check in with yourself and see if you are excited to see your provider. That's how I was. I would look forward. I would look at the calendar and be like, “Oh my gosh. I get to see my midwife this week. This is so exciting,” because I would remember the way that she made me feel when I would get there. She would embrace me with a hug. “How are you doing, genuinely? How are you doing? How are you feeling?” We would chat, and it was a conversation like you said, like two friends. It really should be that connection. I know sometimes, providers don't have the actual time, but tune into how you are feeling about seeing your provider. Are you dreading it? Are you worried about what you're going to say? Are you worried that you're going to have to be educated and come at them and say, “Well, I don't want this, and I don't want that”? What are they making you feel? If they are making you feel those genuine warm fuzzies, lean into that. Jessica: You have a good doctor then. Meagan: If you are feeling tense and anxious, I don't know. It's never too late to switch. You were switching later on. You had a further drive. There were obstacles that you had to hurdle through, but it is worth it. It is so worth it. We have a provider list, everybody. If you are looking for a provider, go to our Instagram. Look at our bio. Click on it. The very first block is supportive providers. If you have a supportive provider that you want to share, I was literally going to put Dr. Swift on this because of your testimonial of her, but she's already on it. Jessica: She was already on it too when I checked. Meagan: Yeah. If you have a supportive provider and you checked this list and they are not on it, guess what? We have made it so you can add it. Definitely add your provider because Women of Strength all over the world, literally all over the world, are looking for this type of support. Jessica: Absolutely. In case you're wondering if my other doctor ever reached out to me, I never heard a single word from her ever again. I canceled all my remaining appointments. Nobody reached out to say, “Hey, we noticed that you're not coming back. What's going on?” Anything could have been wrong when you're that pregnant and you just disappear. It was upsetting that nobody said, “What's going on, Jessica?” I was ready to let them have it because I was wanting them to reach out to say, “Why are you not coming back?” But they never called ever. Meagan: A lot of us stay because we are so worried about how our provider will feel or we have been with our provider this long. They deserve for me to stay. No. Do what's best for you. I love that you pointed that out so much. I just want to thank you again so much for sharing your journey with us and all of these amazing nuggets. I know that they are going to be loved.Jessica: Thank you so much for having me. This just feels amazing to be able to share my story when I've heard so many on here before that were so helpful.Meagan: Yeah, and here you are. I love how full circle this always is, so thank you, again. Jessica: Yeah. Thank you for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode of the Fit2Fat2Fit Experience podcast, host Drew Manning welcomes guest Jessica Zweig, author of “The Light Work.” Jessica shares her transformative journey from a successful entrepreneur feeling empty and unfulfilled to a spiritually awakened and empowered individual. She recounts her pivotal experiences, including a life-changing trip to Egypt that led to profound personal insights and a renewed sense of purpose.   Throughout the conversation, Jessica discusses the illusion of success and money, the importance of finding true fulfillment, and the challenges of overcoming body image struggles. She emphasizes the value of embracing joy, living in the present moment, and creating a life aligned with one's truth. Jessica also delves into her healing journey, the creation of Simply Be Agency, and the lessons learned from burnout and financial scarcity.   Listeners will gain valuable insights into personal growth, spiritual enlightenment, and the power of authenticity. Jessica's story is a testament to the importance of inner work and the impact it can have on one's life and mission. Tune in for an inspiring episode filled with wisdom, practical advice, and encouragement to live a life of purpose and joy.     SPONSORS:   PELUVA - Peluva has reimagined minimalist footwear with innovative design that integrates comfort, function, and style - so you can reclaim your natural movement and build a stronger, healthier body with every step. Click here to unlock 15% off your order, or visit peluva.com/drew.   SHOW LINKS:   • Jessica Zweig's Instagram: @JessicaZweig • The Light Work book: TheLightWorkBook.com • Fit2Fat2Fit Book • Keto School Program • Complete Keto Book • Email Drew: info@fit2fat2fit.com   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS:   0:00 - Aloha and welcome to the Fit2Fat2Fit experience podcast 0:11 - Introduction of host Drew Manning 0:15 - Guest introduction: Jessica Zweig, author of The Light Work 0:21 - Jessica's story: success and feeling empty 0:34 - Discussion on the illusion of success and money 0:43 - Jessica's transformative trip to Egypt 0:58 - Jessica's mission to empower others 1:10 - The importance of purpose in entrepreneurship 1:30 - Sponsor: Paloova, a minimalist shoe company 2:29 - Jessica's background and early life experiences 3:32 - Jessica's childhood and values instilled by her parents 5:16 - Struggles with bullying and feeling out of place 7:03 - Transition from acting to entrepreneurship 8:25 - Creation of a digital magazine for women in Chicago 8:58 - The highs and lows of Jessica's first business venture 10:56 - Knowing when to pivot from acting to entrepreneurship 12:26 - Body image struggles and industry pressures 14:06 - Embracing and honoring her body as sacred 17:08 - The challenges and responsibilities of raising daughters 19:01 - Overcoming financial scarcity and starting Simply Be Agency 21:03 - Achieving rapid success with Simply Be Agency 22:03 - The reality of burnout and the importance of healing 24:20 - Understanding and integrating abundance and scarcity 26:07 - Discovering true fulfillment beyond success 27:00 - Jessica's spiritual journey and pivotal trip to Egypt 30:08 - Embracing joy and living in the present moment 32:09 - Overview of Jessica's new book, The Light Work 34:05 - Inner light, outer light, and future light explained 36:18 - Connecting with your higher self 39:46 - The importance of stillness and solitude 41:18 - Book launch details and bonus offers 43:50 - Final thoughts and messages from Jessica     You can learn more about what I do on my website: https://fit2fat2fit.com   Listen to my podcast, The Fit2Fat2Fit Experience for more amazing content: Fit2Fat2Fit Experience   Follow me on Social!   • Instagram: @fit2fat2fit • Facebook: @fit2fat2fit • Twitter: @fit2fat2fit • TikTok: @fit2fat2fit

In this episode, host Victoria Guido talks with Jessica Wallace, the CEO of Flok22, an innovative app designed to enhance real-time social networking. Victoria delves into Jessica's unique journey from her roots as a hairdresser to becoming a tech entrepreneur. They explore how Jessica's personal experiences and challenges, including being a military wife and navigating life post-divorce with three children, fueled her drive to create Flok22. Jessica's desire to connect people in real-time, especially in the post-COVID era, led to the birth of this groundbreaking app. Victoria and Jessica discuss their mutual passion for music, revealing how their hobbies provide a creative outlet from the demanding world of startups. Jessica shares her aspirations to return to playing the drums, a skill inspired by her family's musical background, and her journey in learning the instrument during the pandemic. On technology and entrepreneurship, Jessica dives into the challenges and triumphs of developing and marketing Flok22. She reflects on the importance of networking, particularly in the startup community, and how her app addresses the inefficiencies and awkwardness often encountered at networking events. Victoria and Jessica discuss the evolution of Flok22, emphasizing its focus on enhancing in-person connections and its pivot towards a more event-centric approach, as well as the future of networking, the potential of Flok22, and their shared enthusiasm for making meaningful connections, both professionally and musically. Flok22 (https://flok22.com/) Follow Flok22 on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/flok22?mibextid=ZbWKwL), Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/flok22/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/flok22app/). Follow Jessica Wallace on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-wallace-b9526361/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jessica Wallace, CEO of Flok22, the app that helps you make friends and grow your network in real-time situations. Jessica, thank you for joining us. JESSICA: Thank you for having me. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, just to get us started and warm up here, Jessica, is there any new skill or any skill you've come back to to practice more recently to kind of take your mind off of all the founder stuff that's happening? JESSICA: Yeah. It's been a busy past two months of events and things like that. So, I've kind of been taking a little bit of downtime. I am hoping to start practicing the drums. I play those, and I haven't been doing that in a while. They've been kind of staring me down, so... VICTORIA: So, were you a drummer before? Were you in a band, or? JESSICA: No, never was in a band. Actually, my dad and my uncle were drummers in a band. And as a kid, I would kind of pick up the drumsticks. And I remember my uncle kind of saying like, "Hey, is that Jessica down there?" Because I would sound like I was playing [laughs] something. Yeah, it took me a while to get into it. But during COVID, I picked it up and started practicing. VICTORIA: I love that. So, do you have a whole drum set at home, or do you have one of those, like, electric? JESSICA: I have both. I have the electric one, which I think I'm going to kind of get out and mess with. But I have an actual full drum set. It's like a TAMA light blue little set. VICTORIA: That's so fun. I like playing the drums, but I never made the leap to actually own my own drum set. So, whenever my friends have it, though, I can play, like, maybe one or two beats on [laughs] it. Nothing that impressive, but yeah, it's a lot of fun. JESSICA: Do you play any other instruments? VICTORIA: Yeah, I've always...I played piano when I was younger, and then clarinet and bass guitar through, like, middle school and high school. I did have a band in college. We played two shows, and they were both at my house, which was a lot of fun. JESSICA: [laughs] VICTORIA: I had kind of stopped playing music, and then when COVID happened, it was like, well [laughs], I guess I need to find another hobby again. So, I picked up piano again. And now I've been playing keyboard and trying to sing at the same time, which has been entertaining for everyone in my household, so...[laughs] JESSICA: Very cool. Too bad we didn't, like, catch up during COVID time. We could have started a band. VICTORIA: Yes. Yeah. I'm trying to think of a way to get more disciplined about practicing, actually, because that's...I know people who practice for, like, three hours a day every day. And I'm just like, how do you make yourself sit there for that long [laughs]? JESSICA: That's definitely been the challenge with me. And then, of course, being in a startup, and then, you know, that kind of got put on the backburner, but I hope to pick it up. VICTORIA: Yeah, right? So, we met at San Diego Startup Week, which was a fantastic event here in San Diego; a different location every night and, different speakers, and all of these really interesting people to meet. So, why don't you tell me a little bit about what brought you to San Diego Startup Week? JESSICA: Well, first things first is being a startup here in San Diego, so that made me go. And I knew it's very important, the more I'm realizing, to build your network and connect with people, and especially just within the community, getting yourself out there to be known, talking to other companies, even just showing your support to other startups. It's such an important thing to do. VICTORIA: And your app, Flok22, specifically, solves some problems people might have with going to an event like that and trying to make friends and network with people. So, can you tell me a little bit more about the initial problem you had when you just came up with the idea for the app? JESSICA: So, the initial problem was kind of around COVID time when everything opened back up. And there was this plethora of meetup apps that everybody was on trying to make these connections. And I would start to go out with friends, and as I'm looking around, it was that weird, awkward time where you couldn't talk to anybody you didn't come with. And I would literally see people, including my friends, swiping on matching apps while they were sitting at the table, but nobody was talking to one another. And that's when I realized we needed something that was more venue-based, where it was like, hey, I'm here. I'm out. Let me see who's available to connect. And that's where the concept came about. And then, during a lot of these networking events, I started to realize the same thing. It was people trying to network, and we're still doing the old-school name tags and signing our name on a paper. And it would just be so much more easier to have everybody on that one platform to connect with a little bit more effective and efficiently. VICTORIA: And so, how long has it been since you had this idea and you've been in this journey with Flok22? JESSICA: Well, it's been a little over two years. Right around COVID is when I got the idea. I was a hairdresser for, like, 20-plus years and wasn't working and at home with my three kids. And the idea just was kind of pricking at me. And it took me a while to try and figure out, you know, how can I do this? How can I, with no funds, you know, newly divorced, three kids, how am I going to start an app? And I just kept pushing on trying to connect with the right people and build a product. VICTORIA: I love that. What inspired you? Like, you had this idea for an app. And you're like, you know what? I'm going to make it work. Like, what kept you going? What made you think this is a thing I can put my time and energy into and be successful? JESSICA: You know, there's a lot of factors. I feel like it's just one of those things where you kind of just...you know how you just get that instinct and idea, and you're like, I just can't let it go? And I remember hitting a low point because I had tried to call different development teams. I had tried to do it on my own. And I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. And I was literally walking on a treadmill, and a friend gave me this YouTube thing to listen to, and it was Les Brown. And he was talking about if you were on your deathbed, you know, these ideas and these dreams, they're just staring you with angry eyes because they came to you for life. And it, like, hit me, like, very intensely to where I was like, I have to do this. I can't just look back in my life and be like, I had this idea. I know somebody's going to do it because everybody would be like, "This is a great idea." So, it's just a matter of you just got to keep going. VICTORIA: Well, I'm glad that you're working on this because I can totally relate to that experience of, you know, for me, I came from Washington, D.C., and moved to San Diego. When I was in D.C., I had spent years in the meetup community and organizing meetups. And so, it got to the point where anytime I went to a meetup, I would know at least one person there. And now coming to San Diego, like, starting it all over again, was very daunting. And, like, walking into...what was it? San Diego tech event where there's, like, 100 people in this beautiful Balboa Park location and just being so nervous [laughs]. I'm like, who do I talk to? Like, how do I get started? And you immediately think I should just leave and go home [laughs]. But let me get a glass of Chardonnay and go over to the craft makers table and make some art and then I'll, like, feel a little bit better. So yeah, I'm curious, like, so you had this great idea. Like, you knew you wanted to put your effort into it. As you started going through the process of figuring out how to get started or how to find that market fit, was there anything that surprised you in your early stages that made you pivot into a new direction? JESSICA: Well, I would say just, like, hearing your story, so many of us have been in that boat. I used to be a military wife, so I was always picking up and moving. And the older we get, it's hard to build and start up your network again. And I see a lot of people posting on Facebook or, you know, Instagram, and they're, like, putting their profile out there trying to make friends. So, there's definitely a need for it. Originally, I wanted it more for the social aspect, which was coffee shops, bars, restaurants, being able to just check in and see who's there that is open to connect. One thing we did kind of start to realize is a lot of people, even though they want to make those connections, people are still nervous to claim that they're trying to, like, make a friend. So, the biggest thing that we learned in the product-market fit was people were more inclined to use it for networking. They felt a little bit more secure and safer that way. So, I would say that would be a thing that we kind of picked up on. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. Because when I'm going to networking, like, of course, I would love to find leads for people who need consulting work from thoughtbot or software development or platform engineering. But if you go in with that intention, it's disingenuous, and it's not very effective. Whereas if you go into a networking event with the intention to make friends and just to learn about people and to find common interest, it's, like, indirectly aiming at your target is the best way to actually get there [laughs]. So, it makes sense. And so, you pivoted into more events and networking. Has there been anything that you've found about that experience or that group of people that's surprised you, or? JESSICA: I do feel like the social side will pick up on it. I just think it's going to take a little bit more time. But with the networking, I wasn't really doing any of that until I got into this startup. So, I didn't even see the need for it until I got in there. And then here I am, you know, going to a table, trying to find my name tag, and everything's still very much old school when it comes to that. And so, that was what surprised me is just was, like, this would be perfect. Everybody's trying to exchange their LinkedIns. Everybody is trying to find the right person. And sometimes you get stuck in a conversation with somebody for 20 minutes, and it's some sales guy from who knows where, and you're just like, uh, I'm not really looking for that. You know what I mean? Great to connect, but got to go. So, it's so much better to just find the right people that you're looking for and network more efficiently. VICTORIA: Yeah, I don't know if this is that exact experience, but what I've kind of heard from other founders is sometimes you go to a networking event, and maybe you're looking for, like, mentors or people to help you or your own [inaudible 10:09]. And then there's more people trying to sell things to you [laughs] than there are, like, those actual people you're looking for who would help you. So, that's really interesting. So, now you've started to kind of really get involved in the networking. And I'm curious: how many events have you gone to so far this year? Do you have a rough estimate? JESSICA: I'm, like, trying to think. It's, like, such a blur because I really have been going to so many. And also, I've been a part of the SDAC E-track, which is the Angel Conference, San Diego Angel Conference that's coming up. So, we're hoping to get accepted in that. I'm going to say, at least this month, probably 12, I would suspect. VICTORIA: Wait, 12 this month? JESSICA: I think so, yeah. And some of them have been little ones. Like, I've done some happy hour events. There's these really cool, like, social happy hour events I've been trying to kind of partner up with. So, definitely some smaller ones, and then some bigger ones, and then including my E-track. So, that's kind of the calculation I have. VICTORIA: Wow, I mean, there's only been 15 days so far this month, so 13 events that's quite a lot [laughs]. I hope you do get some time to rest and play the drums later this month. But that's really exciting. So, I'm curious: as a founder, obviously, you have an event space networking app. But have you found other benefits from growing your network as an early-stage founder? JESSICA: Definitely. The biggest impact is connecting with these people. And whether you read that book, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad," they say, you know, "Poor people look for work, and rich people build networks." And it's true because I'm noticing that for myself. You get around these people, and most of the time, they really do want to help, or you just need to have the ask, you know, ask what you're looking for. And they're more than willing to set you up with other people to get partnerships. I ended up meeting somebody at the MIC Conference, which was in Vegas last month. And they connected me with somebody who now we are going to be partnering with them to have our app be used at their conference. So, it's as simple as that, just once you're in front of them and you get that more personal touch, and then they kind of refer you to other people. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And how does your app compare to the existing apps that are out there for networking at events or for managing attendees at events? JESSICA: Well, currently, there's not anything that's doing it in real-time. There is some conference events they have, like Cvent, Whova app. Personally, to me, it was just there's so much going on. You have the event, you know, vendors. You have the schedule. You have so much going on. And for us, our main thing is just connecting you to the right person. So, it's a more simplistic version of just being able to simply check in, see the profiles of the people that are there, see what it is that you're looking for, and know that you want to connect with them. Also, the other feature that we have is allowing you to see anybody that you may have missed when you leave. So, you can kind of easily filter through those profiles and decide who to reach out to. I mean, similar to maybe, like, a meetup, but it's more just on demand. There quite hasn't been anything that's doing it right instantaneously. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I can agree. I've used some of those apps before. And what I've noticed there's just not a ton of activity or user activity on the day of. And I'm curious to see...I really want to try out Flok, too. I know I'm like [laughs], I haven't had a chance to actually get in there yet, but it is on my to-do list. So, I'm curious, you know, as someone who didn't have a background in technology or building applications, like, how did you go about getting up to speed and finding the people you needed to help you actually build the app? JESSICA: Yeah, I mean, being a hairstylist, I was not tech at all. So, it's pretty interesting that here I am, you know, in this app development world. The main thing was just getting out there. I knew I had already been on so many apps just, whether it was some of the dating apps, meetup apps, so I knew how they operated and what I was looking for as a customer that I wanted to fix. Most of the time, it was heavily with all these pictures, and prompts, and things like that, and I would get bored of setting it up. It would take me, like, you know, 30-plus minutes. Not to mention, I call it, like, adding people to your cart. It's just very impersonal. You got so many people just piling people to their cart. You might talk to them for a little bit, then stop. And I think people are just kind of getting over it. It's time-consuming. It's a lot of time and planning, and sometimes you plan something and then...even with the girls meeting a friend, it's like they plan something for Thursday, and somebody cancels, and then you're SOL, you know? VICTORIA: Oh yeah. So, you had experience with using different apps for, like, networking or meeting people and making friends, and you saw that there was this gap. And then, how did you go to actually building the app? And were there any lessons that you learned in that process? JESSICA: That was my experience and why I was doing that. The main thing I did after that was I started hitting up events to find and recruit. That was how I started finding...I met my co-founder through a mutual friend. She's been wonderful. She's, like, complete opposite of me. She's, like, the business-organized one. Like, hey, we need an LLC. We need this. We need that. I'm more just the idea and brains and kind of behind the scenes. Then I started going to some tech events, met our UI UX designer, Laura, who's been fantastic. So, that would be my advice to people. If you're looking to build and you're trying to find the right people, of course, LinkedIn could be a good spot. Y Combinator could be a good spot. For me, I think going out there and actually making the personal connections and meeting the people and ask them and find what you're looking for. VICTORIA: And you could now even use Flok22 to find your early founder team [laughs]. JESSICA: Exactly. See? VICTORIA: That's awesome. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: So, you went out, and you just met people, and you had this compelling vision of what you wanted to build and were able to recruit them onto your team. Was there anything...you know, you've been at this for two years now. Through the development process, was there anything you learned about what to do or what not to do in how you engage with your designers and developers? JESSICA: You know, it's like, we dove out there, like, headfirst. And then there was a period of time where we needed to pause and re-calibrate, and that was due to the fact that you have to be very diligent in looking for development if you're outsourcing. If you know a CTO or you have somebody in-house that, you know, you're working with, you may not have the problems that we ran into. But with outsourcing, there's still very much a gray area. And we ended up getting a product that was not really functional and had a lot of issues, which caused a huge setback for us. It was a great, you know, lesson learned if that. But you have to be really particular on who you're finding. I would suggest heavily on finding somebody that is a referral from somebody that you know, as a matter of fact, that they use. Because nowadays, there's times that they can almost, like, fake what they have. I mean, they might have references. They'll put stuff up on their website showcasing products that they did, and those aren't even products that they did. So, we ran into a huge deal with that. But it made us take a step back. We re-honed in on our user persona, had our UI UX designer redesign everything, and came back out here again. VICTORIA: Yes, because people will let you pay them to build anything [laughs]. JESSICA: Oh yeah. VICTORIA: But it may not be exactly what you wanted. And what you said, going with someone who is a referral, going with someone who, I think, clearly demonstrates that they need to understand the underlying issue, as opposed to just being willing to take whatever requirements you have and build it. That's a big differentiator for companies. And it can be frustrating because I think, you know, for thoughtbot, sometimes people come to us, and they're like, "We already have the designs. We already know what we want. You just build it for us." And we [inaudible 19:21], like, coach them around that. Like, are you sure? Like, let's look at your market validation, and let's look at your product fit. And, you know, let's go back and make sure that we're all aligned and that you're actually getting value out of something, and showing you the results on a regular basis, as opposed to it'll be done in three months, and you just wait until then. Sometimes, that can be $150,000 later, and, at the end, you're not actually getting a product that you really wanted. JESSICA: Exactly. And like I said, there's still a big, gray area in that where, you know, you can be given a product, and it's not even barely working, or it looks like garbage. And you're kind of stuck because trying to go after these people to get your money back it's most likely not going to happen. And then you just lost out on all that money you put into that product. So, it can be very frustrating for people. I hope to eventually kind of shed light on that and maybe help people along the way, so they don't fall trap to those type of kind of scammers that are out there for development. And I'm sure you, being CTO, you've seen a lot of that [chuckles]. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's something we work really hard to kind of coach clients around and figure out to make sure because we don't want to end in that situation where our founder feels like we built something for them that doesn't work or doesn't look great, or what they're happy with [chuckles]. So yeah, I think it's very common. It happens to a lot of people. But I'm happy that you didn't get discouraged and you said, you know what? We can go for round two. Let's take what we learned and put it into the next version of the app. And one of my favorite phrases from doing this podcast that I've heard is, "If the first product you build if you're proud of it, you didn't do it fast enough" [laughs]. So, like, usually, the first thing you build is not pretty, but you had to push through and build something. And that's the first application you've ever built. So, how did you feel about the second time going around? What did you do differently to be happier with and prouder of the product version that you put out there? JESSICA: Yeah, I like that phrase, too, and sometimes I'm the same. It's kind of like, you know, fail fast and get out there. But the second build was definitely so much more smoother and better. But, actually, we are in transition to a newer, bigger development team because there's still some things that we're just not completely set on. And I do think that moving along to this next development team, there's a more better fit. And then, we also received a grant from AWS to build a better back-end infrastructure, so when we do scale up, and there is more people on there, that it can withhold that capacity. So, I'm definitely happy with it right now. And I know that getting it out there—and you know this, too—is just getting it out there with all the users, you know, there may be some different feedback coming in and out. We plan on, you know, making any changes necessary if need be, and just kind of always making it a little better each time. VICTORIA: Is that the AWS Activate program? JESSICA: It's not the Activate, but it's just we're actually working with a company, and it was AWS. They had filled everything out for us, you know, they want to help startups getting out into the app world because, again, if we're making money, they're making money, too, with it being on their servers. So, it's kind of a win-win. And we can store all of that data and be able to scale up properly. VICTORIA: Absolutely, yeah. And so, for those who don't know, the AWS Activate program, you can apply for up to $100,000 in free credits, and other cloud providers have similar programs where you can get free money [chuckles]. But, no, that's really cool that you're a part of that. So, what challenges do you see on the horizon for Flok22? JESSICA: Of course, I hope there's going to be none, but we know in this entrepreneurial world, it's always there. I think, you know, the hard part are always going to be kind of those situations where maybe people aren't using the app properly or things of that sort happening. Other app companies have dealt with that. It's like, you could be out somewhere, and a situation happens. So, that's kind of the only thing that I would be worried about is just ensuring the safety of all of our users, making sure that everybody is understanding. And I guess when that time comes and if there are things that, you know, come at you, it's just a matter of handling it. So, I hope it's not anything too heavy, but I guess we'll see. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having that concern early on. Because I do feel like sometimes people create apps for networking and collaboration without thinking about the safety of their users. And it's more common from founders who have never been in a situation where they're unsafe [laughs]. So, like, maybe from your unique perspective, you, like, know that that is an issue that you might need to solve or that will come up, and having a plan for it makes sense. JESSICA: We definitely have a plan for it. I mean, a lot of people don't realize with these apps that are out there, there's actually been a pretty high increase in, like, sex trafficking and different things. And most people don't know that because they're not the ones going in there and doing the market research. So, our main thing is getting people out there to meet in public places, which is much safer. You're not, you know, getting lured and unsure if that's even the person who that they say they are, or you're going to someone's house or on a hike. It just makes it for a much safer environment. And then we're working on some other added features where, you know, you can kind of validate the people just to ensure that. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going and keeps you excited about working on this? JESSICA: It's my passion. It's kind of like now; this has been my baby for a couple of years. So, of course, my family is always number one. I have three kids, a rat, two dogs, and a lizard. I adore my family, but I just have a passion for this. And I know that it's just a matter of time before this becomes a thing. And so, I just push myself on the daily trying to figure out the solutions and just keep moving forward with it. VICTORIA: And what does success look like in six months, or even beyond that, in five years? JESSICA: I think, for us, it will just be getting that heavy adoption of users, getting known out here in San Diego or in other parts. We plan on trying to hit more of the major cities where you got a lot of newcomers coming in and traveling, whether that's Chicago, New York, Miami, Vegas. As we get that adoption, just growing as a company and see where it goes from there. VICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, I look forward to when I can go to a conference and just identify who are all the rock climbers in the room, and I can go bug and talk about [laughs], like, climbing with. I love that. JESSICA: And, two, going to these conferences, also, not only your...you get to connect with the people that are there, but it's the people in the surrounding city, too. It's like a lot of people leave the conference, and they want to go to a bar or a coffee shop. And the fact that you have the option or opportunity to connect with the people who are there as well is a win-win. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And do you have any questions for me about thoughtbot, or the podcast, or anything like that? JESSICA: For me, you being, like, a CTO, I know you've maybe...have you seen apps like this become successful? I would love your take on kind of getting out there in the market for something like this because we are at that stage where we're trying to hit the market pretty heavily. We're hitting college campuses, you know, bigger conferences, trying to get that adoption in small clusters for it to be, you know, fun and usable for users. But I would love your take on that. VICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, I'm a managing director. Our CTO is Joe Ferris, who's currently my acting dev director for my team. But from my experience, you know, there might be a lot of competing apps who try to aim for similar things. But if you're very closely understanding your users and their needs and focusing on solving their problems, then you will find your niche, and you'll be able to be successful and grow that from there. So, if you have a strong vision for what the problem is and you're willing to actually listen to your users and pivot based off of that, that will set you up to be successful. Yeah, and I've talked about this with other friends who are really into networking and meeting up with people. And there continues to be this gap of, like, how people communicate and how we actually connect. So, I think you're on the right track [chuckles], and you're doing a lot of great things. And I think the only other advice I would say is what you've already kind of pointed out is to make sure you're not burning out early on and that you're taking that time and space to be with your family and to do your hobbies, and having a strong rest ethic as you do a work ethic and making sure you're still a whole person. And you'll make better decisions if you're giving your brain a little bit of downtime. JESSICA: Definitely. I so agree with you. That's very important to have that balance. And we just hope that we can fill that gap when it comes to the networking. So, I hope that everyone can give it a try and see what they think. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? JESSICA: I mean, honestly, this is not so much about me. I'm really passionate about this app and networking and connecting people together and getting it, so it's just more easy for everybody to connect out in person without wasting that time and energy. Just be out doing you and meet the right people. That's what Flok22 is all about. VICTORIA: I love that. And we'll have to get together and play some music. I'll tell you the two songs I have memorized on piano right now are Kiss from a Rose by Seal and Someone Like You by Adele, so...[laughs] JESSICA: Oooh. VICTORIA: But we do have a bit of a girls' band going in San Diego, so we'll connect on that, too [laughs]. JESSICA: Yeah, we'll have to link up. Add some drums to your... VICTORIA: We don't have a drummer, so that's perfect, yeah [laughs]. JESSICA: See? It's networking at its best [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yes, yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate hearing your story. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Two hours of ComedyFirst a look at this day in History.Then Fibber McGee and Molly, originally broadcast December 11, 1945, 78 years ago, My Boyhood Friend, the Governor. Fibber brags that he knows the Governor...and by golly, he does!Followed by The Great Gildersleeve starring Harold Peary, originally broadcast December 11, 1946, 77 years ago, Afraid of a Bully. Leroy is being victimized by Craig Bullard, the town bully.Then Father Knows Best starring Robert Young, originally broadcast December 11, 1952, 71 years ago. Volunteering goes awry. Jim lectures the kids about helping others. He loses an old suit and Betty volunteers to testify in an auto accident...against a client of Jims. Followed by The Phil Harris and Alice Faye Show, originally broadcast December 11, 1953, 70 years ago, Jessica You're Dragging Your Net. Phil buys a crow for Christmas, then notices Alice has been buying a lot of bananas! Finally Lum and Abner, originally broadcast December 11, 1941, 82 years ago, The Red and Yellow Delivery Truck. Lum has his heart set on a red and yellow delivery truck. Abner plans a surprise. Thanks to Robert for supporting our podcast by using the Buy Me a Coffee function at http://classicradio.stream

To donate to the podcast with Patreon https://www.patreon.com/user?u=4279967 Jack Benny Podcast 1953-12-13 (864) Christmas Show from Palm Springs, PHAF 1953-12-11 Jessica You're Dragging Your Net, Jack Benny 1943-12-12 (494) Dennis' Mother Visits

"I was basically waiting around to go to a job that I didn't like for money that I needed to keep afloat this shell that looks so cool and intriguing to everyone else but me." – Jessica Jeboult   Imagine what it's like to turn a life of LA nightlife, parties, and DJing into a journey toward sobriety and self-discovery. In this episode, Amanda chats with Jessica, Founder of A Sober Girl's Guide, on her journey to sobriety and her struggles with alcohol abuse, identity, and anxiety. Despite the allure of her career, Jessica struggled with an underlying sense of emptiness and used alcohol to hide from it. Despite the glamorous nightlife, she struggled with anxiety, her identity, and feeling trapped in a lifestyle that lacked purpose.   Amanda and Jessica discuss pivotal steps towards overcoming alcoholism, starting with mindfulness and the profound impact of envisioning the life you want! They discuss the importance of finding recovery paths that align with your personal values and resonate on a deeper level. Jessica also sheds light on the steps she took to manage anxiety.   

You can also listen to this episode on Spotify!Did you know that all children, regardless of genetics, are at risk for substance abuse?Jessica Lahey is a New York Times bestselling author, mother, and parent educator on teen substance use. Her most recent book, The Addiction Inoculation, is a practical guide to help children grow up to be healthy and addiction-free. On this episode, Jessica sits down with Dr. McBride to discuss her own path to sobriety, the myths about substance abuse in adolescents, and how to help kids feel comfortable setting healthy boundaries. This is a must listen if you're looking for ways to talk with your kids, grandkids—or yourself—about alcohol. Feel free to share this episode with others who may be, too.Join Dr. McBride every Monday for a new episode of Beyond the Prescription.You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on her Substack at https://lucymcbride.substack.com/podcast. You can sign up for her free weekly newsletter at lucymcbride.substack.com/welcome.Please be sure to like, rate, and review the show!Transcript of the podcast is here![00:00:00] Dr. McBride: Hello, and welcome to my office. I'm Dr. Lucy McBride, and this is Beyond the Prescription, the show where I talk with my guests like I do my patients, pulling the curtain back on what it means to be healthy, redefining health as more than the absence of disease. As a primary care doctor for over 20 years, I've realized that patients are much more than their cholesterol and their weight, that we are the integrated sum of complex parts.[00:00:33] Our stories live in our bodies. I'm here to help people tell their story to find out are they okay, and for you to imagine and potentially get healthier from the inside out. You can subscribe to my weekly newsletter at https://lucymcbride.substack.com/subscribeand to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So let's get into it and go beyond the prescription.[00:01:01] My guest on the podcast today is Jessica Lahey. Jessica is a New York Times bestselling author, mother, longtime teacher and educator for parents and teens on the subject of substance use and overuse. Her most recent book, the Addiction Inoculation, is a crucial resource for anyone who plays a vital role in children's lives, from parents and teachers to coaches and pediatricians. Helping raise kids who will grow up healthy, happy, and addiction free. Jessica, welcome to the podcast.[00:01:35] Jessica: You are so welcome. I'm so happy to be here.[00:01:38] Dr. McBride: I'm really happy to be here too because you and I were talking before the show started recording about how medicine in the current landscape is failing people. It treats people like a set of boxes to check, like humans are a bag of organs. We cattle herd, we box check, we move people along the conveyor belt, when health to me, and I'm sure to your husband, who's also a doctor, is rooted in the relationship with a patient, is founded on trust. And particularly when we're talking about complex issues like substance use and overuse, it requires time to get to know the patient and then unlock those complicated stories.[00:02:25] So, this is why I'm thrilled to have you here because it's clear to me that this is not just your job, but this is who you are. So I'd love to talk first about your story and how you became interested in substance use.[00:02:39] Jessica: I couldn't avoid it because I was raised in a home with someone with substance use disorder. One of my parents and one of my parents was raised with a person with substance use disorder and so on and so on, and so on and so on. And when I first got sober, On June 7th, 2013. Not coincidentally, my mother's birthday, I got blackout drunk at her birthday party.[00:03:03] My very first thought was, okay, well hold on. If I'm part of this long legacy, and by the way, my husband is part of a very long legacy of substance use disorder, how on earth do I make this stop for my kids? I mean am I just, are they just destined to carry? And I had so many questions about genetics and risk factors and all that stuff.[00:03:27] And more than that, I had also been a teacher for 20 years. And after I got sober, I started teaching in an inpatient recovery center for adolescents. And I wanted to understand very specifically, how those kids ended up there, what could we could have done differently, both from a parenting, from a social, from an educational perspective, how those kids ended up there.[00:03:50] And then looking at my own kids, I got sober when they were nine and 14. And I really just needed some answers. And I was hearing, most of the information I had in my head was myth. It was magical thinking. It was myth, it was rumor. I needed to understand, if we give kids sips when they're younger, does that do anything about helping them learn moderation or should we be aspiring to be like those European families that we talk about so much?[00:04:19] And anyway, so all of that stuff, I needed answers. I have the coolest job in the world, which is to get curious about topics and then get paid to research the heck out of them, and then translate that research for people who don't wanna dive in and research for two years to get the answer to a topic.[00:04:36] So my job is not just… I'm a writer, but I'm at heart, a teacher. I mean, not just to kids, but now I get to go out into the world and translate all of this stuff. And if there's nothing I love more, it's helping people think about topics that freak them out. Whether that's letting your kids fail with Gift of Failure, whether that's substance use prevention stuff.[00:04:59] It's the reason that I've stuck with this substance use prevention stuff, because it's just so hard to get people over the shame, the guilt, the fear, the denial in order to talk about this stuff. So that's one reason that I make daily videos about this stuff. I'm out there speaking to lots and lots of people, and sometimes it's an uphill battle, but it's really, really fun.[00:05:23] Dr. McBride: I can tell you're enjoying it and you're so effective at communication. I'm the same way. I love complicated patients. I love the layered kind of kernels of people's interiority and how their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are interrelated and then explaining it to people. I also love tackling topics that tend to freak people out, like death and dying, delivering bad news, like somehow that's like my Super Bowl. And I think one of the reasons is because, at least for me, I see the fear in people's eyes and I see the shame that they carry and then being able to kind of convey a message to people that is, that they can wrap their arms around is really gratifying. When it comes to substance use disorder, I think a lot of parents are freaked out.[00:06:12] I think they read the headlines. They see how pre pandemic, we had an epidemic of diseases of despair, including substance use disorder that is only accelerated during the pandemic and they don't know what to do. And they know their kids in their adolescent years are trying alcohol, drinking in kids' basements.[00:06:30] They're kind of looking at what other parents are doing and not knowing who to trust. And so I'd love to hear from you what are the common myths that parents tend to hold in their minds about substance use disorder in adolescence?[00:06:47] Jessica: Yeah, I think this is really important because it's also the myths that get translated to their children. And the big ones are things like, first of all it's a fait accompli—kids are going to drink anyway, so I might as well teach them how to do it responsibly, either because I have beer at my house and I take away everyone's keys, and at least they'll be safe.[00:07:06] That sort of just fatalistic, it's going to happen anyway because that's simply not true. The numbers are so much lower than people understand, and I get into that. In the book, there's this thing called pluralistic ignorance, which is we tend to overestimate in the case of alcohol, for example, how much people tend to drink, the people around us and how invested they are in having alcohol around.[00:07:28] And we all tend to overestimate that. So that sort of fatalistic thing, the whole, you know, I really want my kids to be like those European kids. So therefore if I let my kids have sips at home, let them have their own beer, a little bit of wine, that kind of thing, it'll somehow teach them to be moderate drinkers and not freak out when suddenly alcohol is available to them at college or whatever.[00:07:51] And that's wrong for so many reasons. I mean, the European Union as a whole, based on data from the World Health Organization and specifically World Health Organization Europe has the highest level of alcohol consumption in the entire world, and the highest level of deaths and illness attributable to alcohol.[00:08:10] Yes, there are exceptions, and that's a fantastic conversation to have as well, because that's about outliers based on the fact that those countries tend to have very particular community standards around public drunkenness. So the outliers tend to have to do with community pressures, and that leads to a great conversation of family culture, school culture, city culture, all those kinds of things.[00:08:33] And then, the idea that our kids don't listen to us because that's just not true. Even as kids get into college, they report that their parents tend to be their preferred and most trusted source of information for especially health, personal health, that kind of stuff, that kind of information. And finally, I want to also, I think it's really important to remember that substance use disorder and substance use are two different things. Lots of kids can try substances and not go on to have a problem with substances over the long run. And it's important to understand from an objective perspective what those risk factors are so that you can say, oh, my kids are at higher risk, or this puts my kid at higher risk, so what do I do specifically to deal with that. And then finally, I think it's also important to remember that yes, substance use disorder, we're having a crisis right now with mental health and stuff like that. And substance use disorder or substance use can be one way to cope with that. But prevention works. Effective prevention works.[00:09:31] And we're at, we've seen a 10 year decline really now 15 year decline in most aspects of substance use in adolescence. And that's because prevention works. And in order to do that really great prevention work, we have to be objective about risk factors, and we need to realize that adolescent brains are different from adult brains. I don't talk about adult substance use that often, except for when I talk about whether or not you should do it in front of your kids and what your messaging should be, because the adolescent brain is just different from the adult brain.[00:10:06] Dr. McBride: Okay. I wanna talk a lot about the adolescent brain, having three of them in my own house. I welcome your insights. Actually, two are in college, but they do inhabit my house every now and then. But let's go back to the first myth for a second. The myth that parents, I think, believe quite often, and I have believed in some ways, which is that it's inevitable they're going to use alcohol, trying to stop them from drinking alcohol or experimenting with it in high school is kind of like stopping a 747. I think a lot of parents think, as long as we've had the conversation, then this is, this is the best we can do. What data is out there, Jess, to show that delaying your exposure helps prevent the likelihood of substance use disorder?[00:10:56] Jessica: So first it's just important to remember that there are two periods of brain development that are the most important. They're just these massive periods of brain plasticity, and that's zero to two and puberty to around 25-ish, depending on the kid. So what we need to remember is that that development, that cognitive development that's going on, and that brain development that's going on from puberty to 25-ish, we don't fully understand all of it, it is massive. It's happening all over the brain. It's happening with lots of different centers. The executive function part of the brain, the upper brain is connecting to the lower brain, and anyway, that needs to happen as unimpeded as possible. What we do know is that the younger a kid is when they first initiate their substance use, the more likely they are to have substance use disorder during their lifetime.[00:11:46] So for example, if a kid starts in eighth grade, it approaches a 50% chance of developing substance use disorder over their lifetime. If they start in 10th grade, it goes down to around 20%, a little bit less than 20%. And if you can get them to 18, we get so darn close to 10%. It's important to delay, delay, delay. So that's one reason. Not only are we lowering their statistical risk of substance use disorder over their lifetime, and yes, there are some confounders in that data. There are confounders. I mean 90% of people who develop substance use as an adult report that they started before the age of 18.[00:12:26] And of course there are issues in there that we can't control for—the social determinants and all that kind of stuff. Families that have more alcohol around are gonna have kids that are more likely. So there's all of that as well. But this is what I'm dealing with in terms of the statistics.[00:12:42] Also remembering that the development, the longer a kid goes without ingesting anything that messes, whether it's with your dopamine cycle or fills up receptors in your brain that are, should otherwise have naturally occurring neurotransmitters in those receptors, because we're introducing them through drugs and alcohol. The brain just needs to develop as unimpeded as possible for as long as possible. So we're protecting their brains and we're lowering their risk of substance use disorder over their lifetime.[00:13:11] Dr. McBride: It makes sense in a lot of ways. The way I think about it is that the longer you give adolescent brains to ripen on the vine, and the longer you give kids who are dealing with a lot of complex thoughts, feelings and emotions and genetic predispositions, the more chance you give them to find and practice coping with hard thoughts and feelings. You just give them more opportunities to realize that they like drawing, they like being outside to play sports, they like laughing with their friends, they've realized who their intimate friendships are and where they can go to put a lot of thoughts and feelings instead of the default mode to alcohol, which for some kids, as we both know, is a occupational hazard for our kids who are in distress.[00:14:02] Jessica: And that's really apparent when you see what happens to a kid who has substance use disorder. They come to rehab. We remove the substance they're using as their coping mechanism. Suddenly you have kids with unresolved trauma. I mean so much. When we talk risk factors, you know, trauma is a big part of it.[00:14:21] So suddenly we have these kids that have been using this one and only coping mechanism for so long that they. Not only don't have coping mechanisms for that trauma, but they don't have coping mechanisms for interpersonal disputes, for just feeling anxious. All of their coping has been through using the substance instead of actually learning a real coping mechanism, which is why we often talk about kids in recovery as having been—in some ways not always—having had their development arrested at the age at which they started using the substance and. I don't agree with that fully, but what I do [00:15:00] know is that it does arrest their ability to learn prosocial behaviors, to learn coping mechanisms, to learn how to as we often hear from, for example, Dr. Dan Siegel, integrate their upper and lower brain, and figure out how to be slightly outside of their emotions as opposed to living completely inside of their emotion and reacting from their limbic system, from their lower brain and not engaging that upper sort of more rational part of their brain. Yeah, it's tough.[00:15:31] Dr. McBride: I just had Lisa Damour on my podcast.[00:15:33] Jessica: She's fantastic.[00:15:34] Dr. McBride: I love her too. And we talked, as you would imagine, about the rainbow of emotions that adolescents have and how complex they are and how they don't have necessarily in their teenage years, the vocabulary with which to discuss feelings. They don't have the interest always in talking about their feelings, and they don't even know they're having them sometimes.[00:15:55] I have this poster in my office. That's the periodic table of emotions. I have a version at home too. It's like the periodic table of the elements, but it's emotion. So instead of believing that we have happy, sad, mad, we have rage, we have jealousy, we have envy, we have fear, we have this whole rainbow.[00:16:19] So my kids tease me about it because they're like, oh my God, there's mom with the rainbow of emotions again. But then I see them when I'm not looking like my son and his girlfriend kind of being like, “hmm, I'm feeling kind of vulnerable today.” So what is my point? That it is a natural human instinct, whether you're a teenager or an adult who's experiencing complex emotions that are uncomfortable and maybe not even named to seek out places and ways to soothe, and I think adults do this. This is why I have a job. But teenagers, without the vocabulary, without the tools, without the insight that you are helping them grow and that I see older teenagers myself, it can be a very complex landscape and they're… Alcohol in our culture is socially acceptable and legal, and so it seems natural that they would experiment with it, and then you're off to the races.[00:17:11] If you have a kid who all of a sudden feels, wait a minute, my social anxiety has been quieted, my uncomfortable thought has been muted, my fear is less loud. And they don't even necessarily articulate it that way, but it makes so much sense that this is an occupational hazard of being an adolescent.[00:17:29] Jessica: Yeah, there's definitely a camp—in any field there are camps—these little camps of people who believe various things. And there's the trauma camp, that substance use disorder response to trauma. There's also the developmental camp, and I think that's really important. I think the reason that I and you and Lisa love adolescents so much is because, we tend to have a deeper understanding of how their brains work, which is why I tell parents that the more you understand about your adolescent's brain, the better you can be at stepping back and not just reacting to some of the buttons that are being pushed.[00:18:06] And I think that whenever I—in fact, I tell parents, whenever you're most frustrated with your teenagers, just look between their eyes at that spot, right between their eyes. And remember, that's the part of the brain that's not fully connected yet, and that what they're doing in terms of their adolescence is designed to make kids want to push out and to individuate, but also to try new things.[00:18:30] What's so cool about that? In trying new things in seeking out novelty and yes, sometimes novelty comes with risk. When they succeed at those things that they're trying out, when they build new skills, they're actually boosting their dopamine and boosting dopamine through… Kids are constantly craving dopamine. They want, we all want to feel good, we all want to have that feeling of mastery, inhalation, and all that sort of stuff. But if we want our kids to seek that out in healthy ways and healthy places, we can push them towards positive risk on to skill building and building competence, and then they can sort of get that dopamine cycle going in productive ways.[00:19:13] But I think the minute that you just sort of shut down and say teenagers are difficult, they're moody. I heard one time on a podcast on—it might have even been This American Life—it was definitely on NPR a long time ago when I was a middle school teacher, I heard a middle school teacher say, sometimes I let myself just think that we should send these kids away to some holding place until they're ready to listen and able to learn again.[00:19:43] And it makes me bananas because the exact opposite is true, that for people that really love and appreciate and understand adolescence and especially early adolescence, the more we understand what an incredible opportunity there is for learning, and how much learning is actually going on during that period, and enjoy it more, the more we understand it, the more we have the potential to enjoy it.[00:20:08] Dr. McBride: So talk to me about what do you see as a major differences between the adolescent brain and the fully formed adult brain as it pertains to substance use disorder and dopamine, et cetera.[00:20:21] Jessica: Yeah, so I rely heavily on the Dan Siegels and the Frances Jensens and the Laurence Steinberg's to help me see—as Laurence Steinberg refers to—adolescence as an age of opportunity. And I love that because so many other people are talking about this a terrible time, but what you have to understand about the adolescent brain, and varying people describe it in varying ways, but there's sort of a mismatch between the part of the brain, the early developing part of the brain, the lower brain, the reacting part of the brain that is just like, you know, go, go, go, emotions, emotions, emotions and the part of the brain that's still getting connected that handles executive function and prioritizing of resources and time and all that stuff. And that mismatch seems to persist until just about the time that we want to freak out and give up on them. And then suddenly, and it's so cool being a teacher because you get to bear witness to these moments, and eighth grade is a great time for this. [00:21:20] For example, I taught English, and so I taught a lot of literature that had metaphor and symbolism in it, and many middle school kids, not because they're dumb, not because they're smart, not because they're lacking anything, can't understand metaphor in a way that some, maybe some of their classmates can. But you don't stop talking about it just because they don't understand it yet. You just keep offering it. You just keep offering it in ways that are obvious so that the day that those neurons connect, you can see their eyes just go wide and they go, “oh. That's what she's been talking about.” And that same thing can happen with strategies for organization.[00:22:03] I talk in the Gift of Failure about when my daughter finally connected this strategy for helping her remember things and actually remembering things and being able to go to school with her stuff. And had we been arguing about it for months? Oh yeah, of course. But it wasn't until for whatever reason, those neurons finally, finally decided to connect.[00:22:26] And there have been times as a middle school advisor where, you know, I had a family once beg me to be their kid's middle school advisor, because I had been his brother's middle school advisor and his brother had made leaps and bounds during middle school. And I'm like, that's really sweet that you wanna attribute any of that to me and being his advisor. But it's just that his lower brain and his upper brain finally connected, and I was lucky enough to be there when it happened and capitalize on some of those moments. And that's what's amazing to know about the adolescent brain is that all of these things that we're being asked, we're asking them to do that they may not be ready for.[00:23:03] All of that creates stress, anxiety, a need for some kind of control over their world, and if we give them the autonomy and we give them the competence that they need, what ends up happening in their brain is they feel this, as I mentioned, the dopamine cycle lets them have this great burst of dopamine. If you wanna read more about that, please read Anna Lembke's Dopamine Nation.[00:23:26] It's such a fantastic book. And on the other side, the less kids get to feel that feeling of self-efficacy, of competence, of skill building, the more helpless they feel, the lower their feelings of self-efficacy become, and the more they turn to things other than their own abilities in order to help themselves cope. And it's the reason I quote Chris Herren. Chris Herren, former Boston Celtic, ended up addicted to opiates. It's a fantastic story. Basketball junkie, if you ever wanna read it. And he goes out and speaks to kids a lot and he, I quote him in the addiction inoculation as talking about the fact that we tend to spend so much time talking about the last day of substance use.[00:24:07] How far we fell, how disgusting it was on my mom's birthday on June 7th, 2013, and how ugly it got. But what we need to be talking about, especially when it comes to kids, is the first day, and he talks about that moment when a kid is at a party in a friend's basement, and why they don't feel like they are enough. They deserve to be loved. They don't deserve to take up space. They don't deserve to be here. What is it that makes them turn to substances? And I'm really lucky in that I get to talk to a lot of kids and hear what those moments sound like for them. And we need to help them feel like they're enough in those moments so they don't have to turn to something else.[00:24:49] Dr. McBride: I wanna break that down and I first wanna just comment that. You know, I think a lot of substance abuse programs in schools focus on this on the last day, right? Like, they focus, they, they bring people in and try to scare the pants off of kids. They show images of drunk driving accidents and kids are supposed to go away thinking, “oh, I don't wanna be in a car accident. I don't wanna die.” But in my experience with teenagers, myself, as a physician and as a mother, that doesn't really work. And then we know the data are clear that scaring people doesn't work. We have to meet people where they are. And it's clear that, as you talk about so beautifully, the roots of a healthy program to educate kids and on substance use is social emotional learning. So can you talk a bit about that and how that relates to the prevention as individual parents who may be listening?[00:25:45] Jessica: Yeah, so backing up, for example, in this country, only 57% of high schools in this country, and by the way, high school is too late to be starting this. Anyway, we need to be starting these programs very, very young, and I talk about that in Addiction Inoculation. Only 57% of high schools in this country have any substance use prevention program.[00:26:02] And of that 57%, only 10% are based on evidence. On any kind of evidence of efficacy, that kind of stuff. So what we know about the best available substance use prevention programs is that they start very young, pre-k, k, and continue all the way through the end of high school. They are rooted in social emotional learning, refusal skills, building self-efficacy and self-advocacy, and essentially giving kids from a very early age, pro-social skills and coping skills, coping mechanisms.[00:26:37] It's the reason that some have mindfulness programs attached to them and unfortunately, we're in this horrible position right now where we know these programs work. Oh, and also life skills, by the way. Life skills are a very important part of these programs as well. We know that social-emotional programs that contain health modules—making sure your bodily autonomy and safety and self-advocacy and stuff like that. We know those work. And yet, right now, For the first time ever, social-emotional learning is under attack because there's a faction of society that sees social-emotional learning as something that it's absolutely not, which is either indoctrination or identity and whatever. And it's really, really upsetting to me because without social emotional learning programs, which are just about building pro-social skills and skills that help us be a part of society and get along with other people and advocate for ourselves and all of this stuff that we know is so important.[00:27:36] Ask kindergarten teachers, they repeatedly say those are the skills that if you were to look at kids and say, okay, that kid is probably gonna do really well, and that kid probably is not. It all comes down to pro-social skills and behaviors. If we do away with social emotional learning, there have been places I have spoken where I've been asked not to use that acronym because it's quote “problematic.” This is a disaster because this is what we know works for substance use prevention programs, and we abolish that at our peril. Any gains we've made in the reduction in substance use among adolescents, we're going to lose.[00:28:15] Dr. McBride: I could not agree with you more. I mean, social emotional learning to me is about giving yourself permission to be human, to be flawed, and to have bodily autonomy, and as you said, the refusal skills and the ability to learn how to cope and function in the real world. [00:28:34] Jessica: Self-regulation, collaboration. Well, and then if you look at risk factors for substance use disorder, we know that 50 to 60% of the risk lies in genetics. That's Dr. Mark Shook at the University of California, San Diego. We know that the other 40 to 50% is adverse childhood experiences, trauma, stuff like that, and then set.[00:28:53] And of course, the social emotional learning stuff can help kids with that. But then on the other hand, we also know that child on child aggression, academic failure, social ostracism, undiagnosed learning issues, all of these other things are risk factors as well. And if social emotional learning programs help with so many of the things that can counteract social ostracism and help identify academic failure early on and can help reduce aggression between children. This is such an important part of the substance use prevention picture, and because we also know that self-efficacy is one of the most important things we can give kids and self-efficacy comes from the ability to self-advocate and self-regulate. It's all this self-perpetuating cycle that if we throw a wrench in there, sorry to mix metaphors, that we, this whole thing grinds to a halt and we have a whole bunch of kids who not only can't get along with other people, but don't have any coping mechanisms within themselves to manage their own stress. All that stuff Lisa Damur talks about with girls and Yeah.[00:29:58] Dr. McBride: When I was growing up, it was just say no. That was the mantra.[00:30:01] Jessica: And we know that doesn't work[00:30:02] Dr. McBride: and it would be really easy to say no if you had the social wherewithal, the confidence, the emotional skillset to manage that moment when a kid asks you if you want a beer and you're an eighth grader…[00:30:14] Jessica: Well, and that's not even enough. That's not even enough. So what we need are, they're ultimately called refusal skills. I sometimes call them refusal skills. I call them in Addiction Inoculation—the inoculation. There's a school of sociology called Inoculation Theory. It's essentially if we give kids the information they need in order to counteract messaging that's coming from other places, whether that's from liquor companies advertising beer to kids during sports, or another kid in their class. So let's say for example, you have an eighth grader who gets offered a beer. And the rejoinder to “no thanks” is, “come on. It's no big deal. Everybody's doing it.” If your eighth grader knows, well, it is kind of a big deal because here's what's happening in my brain and, and blah, blah, blah, and they know that it's not true that everybody's doing it. That in eighth grade, by the end of eighth grade, only 24.7% of eighth graders admit to having had more than a sip of alcohol.[00:31:16] So if they have that information, it makes them feel more confident in their stance and makes them more likely to continue to stick with their rejoinder of, “no thanks. I'm good.” And that those refusal skills, that inoculation messaging is so important and we have to start that early and continue it through.[00:31:37] So it's not just about the wherewithal, the emotional wherewithal to say, no, we need to give them the actual information to back that up so that they can feel more confident in their stance and they can have a reasoning behind their stance. And it's the reason, by the way, that of the entire book. There's a lot of things I loved about writing this book, but my favorite part, I didn't necessarily write. I asked adolescents to give me excuses they could use in public at a party or whatever that would help them save face and yet allow them to get out of using if they didn't want to. And there's two and a half pages of those in the book, and I'm so grateful to all of the kids that sent those to me because so many of them are brilliant and I wouldn't have come up with them on my own.[00:32:21] Dr. McBride: Give me some examples. I'd love to hear, and for any parent who's listening, I would love to like have you flip to that page because if we can arm our kids with like just the words to use and ideas, then that would be great.[00:32:36] Jessica: they are things like, “I can't, I get migraines” because we know that, for example, wine, alcohol is a trigger for migraines. “I can't, I have a sleep disorder.” We also know that alcohol is a major component of sleep disorders—it exacerbates sleep disorders. “I can't. I'm taking an antibiotic.” “I can't. My parents drug test me. Aren't they horrible?!” or “I can't, my mom breathalyzes me when I get home.” or even just in their own head. My son, who's now 24, when he was in high school, he admitted to me that while he doesn't say this out loud in his own brain, he's like, “I know that I'm at increased risk for substance use disorder, and my mom had to work so hard to get away from the pit of despair that she reached in her alcoholism. I think I'm just gonna not risk that for now,” or “I have an early practice. I can't.” “I'm the designated driver,” which by the way, makes you more popular with other people because you can help them get home safely and not get in trouble and not get pulled over. There's all kinds of things that we don't even think about.[00:33:42] A lot of Asians have something that's like a flushing disorder that is actually, it's sort of a… it's not really an allergy to alcohol, but it is something that makes drinking alcohol quite unpleasant. So you can go with that. There are a few studies, there's all kinds of ways that you can get at this.[00:33:59] It's just not the best thing for me right now. And I think the big overlooked answer is, “nah, that's okay. I'm good.” No is always an acceptable answer. And even in in sobriety, I have to value my sobriety and my safety more than maybe the worrying about upsetting my host, if I need to go home early from a dinner party where I'm just not feeling safe anymore and my husband and I have a signal and we've got all kinds of exit strategies and stuff like that, but helping kids know that they're worth it, that they are allowed to say no and that, obviously we have to make sure they know that in terms of unwanted touching and having sex before they're ready, all of that kind of stuff, we have to sort of empower them, give them the self-efficacy they need in order to feel like they're entitled to say no to whatever the heck they want to if it feels like it's going to endanger their safety.[00:34:56] Dr. McBride: And I do think kids these days are feeling more empowered to say how they feel to put limits down, to set boundaries. But of course, without the vocabulary and tools and the social support and the emotional vocabulary, it can be more difficult.[00:35:11] Jessica: Yeah. And that why that's part of the dovetail also with Gift of Failure, is that we know that parents who are highly controlling of their children tend to have kids that lie to them more often, and also that don't feel heard because if you are from that school of thought of do it because I said so or because I'm the parent without attaching any of the why to it, then it's like the difference between saying, I would prefer that you not drink until 21 because it's the law versus I would prefer that you not drink until you're 21 because of the potential damage it can do to your brain and because it can raise your risk of, of substance use disorder over your lifetime.[00:35:48] I'm a why kind of person. I need to know the why. Otherwise, I am not invested as a learner and many kids are the same way. Just telling them, because I said so doesn't tend to be a winning strategy.[00:36:02] Dr. McBride: To what extent are parents, quote unquote, “responsible” for their kids' relationship with alcohol? I'd love to talk to you about genetics versus experiences. The whole trauma argument that…I'm sure you know Gabor Mate and his system, I mean, he's wonderful. I also take a little bit of an issue with the idea that it's all rooted in trauma. I also believe on the other side that trauma is a, is a big word and can mean lots of different things. Feeling unloved and unsafe in your home for whatever reason can be traumatic. It's not just the. Experience of say, you know, breaking your leg and being ambulanced to the hospital. It can be an uncomfortable experience.[00:36:54] It's the way that experience is handled from the individual standpoint, and that can then lead to a predisposition towards unhealthy coping strategies. So talk to me about what parents are responsible for. How much is genetic and how much is environmental, because I don't think we know the answer, but I'd love your thoughts.[00:37:17] Jessica: Yeah, so like I said, the, the figure we have on the genetics is about 50 to 60%, but then you add on top of that this added layer called epigenetics, which is a crossover between environment and genetics. Also it's not just one gene. We're not gonna ever have this CRISPR technology where we're like, oh, we can flick that one gene out. Look. And addiction is gone. It's not like that. It's tied into personality, it's tied into chemistry. It's tied into so many different aspects of our environment. And again, epigenetics determines how genes either do turn on or don't turn on, that kind of thing. So then on top of that,  the other 40 to 50% is yes trauma.[00:37:56] Jessica: But there's all different kinds of trauma. If you read Lisa Damour's Under Pressure, you understand the difference between stress, like there's little T trauma and there's Big T trauma. I think everyone on the planet should have to read Nadine Burke Harris's The Deepest Well, because average childhood experiences as originally defined by the CDC and Kaiser Permanente are really valuable, right?[00:38:21] Because we know that people who have. People are more likely to have negative life outcomes in terms of health, mental health, all kinds of other stuff. If they've had various adverse childhood experiences and there's a really handy list, go google Adverse Childhood Experience and Quiz, and you can take the quiz yourself.[00:38:38] However, it is not a complete list. The things that are on that quiz are a great starting place. For example, we know that physical and especially sexual abuse is a huge, huge glaring blinking neon sign risk for eventual substance use disorder. That's a huge, massive risk. So the adverse childhood experiences list of 10 things within categories comes close, but then there's also… it doesn't take into account Nadine Burke Harris's list, which can include things like systemic racism. Why on earth are we not counting that as a big T trauma because it absolutely is. There's a lot of debate right now around adoption, around all kinds of things that qualify as—can qualify as traumatic experiences for kids.[00:39:24] So, and you should know about me that anytime someone says it is, All this or all that, I'm immediately suspicious as a journalist[00:39:35] Dr. McBride: Well, I'm the same way. I mean, that's, that's it. I mean, everything is in the middle. It's not all nature. It's not all nurture. It's in the middle.[00:39:40] Jessica: Well, and that's why, you know, there's an entire chapter essentially. What if I were to write about the peers chapter, you know, why did I include a chapter on the influence of peers in the book?[00:39:49] Why bother? Because I could have just said, research shows that the more your kid's friends use drugs and alcohol, the more likely your kid is to use drugs and alcohol. Okay? Chapter over. But the problem is, it is a much more nuanced picture than that. And I tell the story in that chapter of. My son Ben had a friend who, Brian, that's his real name.[00:40:08] He was insistent—the two young adults I profile in the book, Brian, and Georgia insisted that I use their real names because they felt this was just too important. Brian and Ben became friends. Brian had been already kicked out of one high school, then got kicked outta my son's high school for substance use and behavioral stuff and my, my kids stuck by him and all their friends stuck by him and I'm like, look, my instinct as a parent is you cannot be friends with this kid because if he does substances, you are more likely to do substances. In the end, that relationship was much more complicated and the fact that my son, Ben, and his friends stuck by Brian actually led to the moment where Brian realized on the second time he got kicked out of that high school and my son and his friends took him running on the last day, he was allowed to be on campus. Brian realized in that moment that was his turning point. That was his 100th piece of his puzzle where he said, it all has clicked into place and I see what I stand to lose, and my son benefited from the object lesson. The real scared, straight sort of object lesson, real life learned experience of, oh, this is what happens when you rely on substances in order to manage these other things. [00:41:26] And here let's talk about those things. And PS the best part of that whole relationship was I said to my son, “Ben, look. I'm so pleased you want to support him and go visit him in rehab and all that stuff. Loyalty is great and a friendship, but if you're going to be friends with Ben, knowing what I know about the statistics, we're gonna have to talk about this a lot.”[00:41:47] And that was something that became a standard conversation topic for us. How's Brian doing? How are you doing about Brian's… how do you think Brian's doing? How do you think…what are you seeing that works for Brian and what doesn't work for Brian? It gave us a proxy so that my son didn't have to talk about himself as much, which can be very difficult for teenagers. But it allowed us this proxy to talk about substance use and substance use disorder in the guise of Brian and gave Brian a launching off place for his, what became his recovery.[00:42:19] Dr. McBride: It's so lovely and I really like the way you talk about Georgia and Brian in your videos and in your book, because it just helps parents, I think, hook into the realities of these kids' lives with empathy and compassion for their stories and great respect for their privacy. Obviously, that the fact that they wanted to share their stories means that they feel that this needs to be talked about more than it is.[00:42:45] Jessica: Yeah, I can't count the number of times. I was like, no, really, let's do a pseudonym. You can choose the pseudonym. And even recently with Brian, I had to get in touch with Brian about something and I wanted to make sure that they were making that decision from a place—and they were [00:43:00] adults when they made this decision—but that they were truly making this decision from the perspective of, you know, I appreciate that. A lot of people have shame and guilt in that. There may be some persecution that I could face maybe in the workplace later if this got out, that this was me, but this is too important. It has brought some value out of everything I went through as a kid, as a child of an alcoholic, everything I went through as an alcoholic.[00:43:25] And this education might help someone else. And I think that's really where Brian and Georgia are coming from, from this. And I talked to Georgia last week, talked to Brian two weeks ago, and yeah, they're doing great. They're doing so well.[00:43:39] Dr. McBride: It's incredible. I'd love to now segue into talking more about you if I could because you are talking the talk and walking the walk. So had you tried to get sober in your life before that moment at your mother's birthday party?[00:43:56] Jessica: I've had periods of sobriety because I was scared. Like, you know, I did that, I did that thing a lot of sober curious people do, and to make it clear, I'm so hopeful about where we are right now because I think a lot of people are realizing you don't have to rise to the level of completely out of control, homeless, DUI, all that stuff, getting fired from work. You can say to yourself, “man, I'm gonna try dry January and just see how it goes.” And then you realize, oh wow, this kind of feels better. And so I'm gonna keep going. You can stop drinking just because it's not working for you anyway. I was scared to death.[00:44:30] I tried through the guise of long distance running like I used, running as a reason to stay sober, to not drink, and I would make all kinds of bargains with myself. When I was pregnant, I was sober. When I was training for big races, I was sober, but it just was starting to take over to a degree that I couldn't control it anymore on my own. And so the reason I talk about getting to a place where I know I needed help as a 100 piece puzzle is, you know, my dad on that morning, after my mom's birthday party was my 100th piece. But pieces one through 99 had to be there for all of that to click into place and form a big picture.[00:45:13] And those early attempts at sobriety were pieces of that. And the beauty of all of this puzzle piece stuff is that I can't guarantee that my kids are not gonna develop substance use disorder, but all of this prevention stuff are pieces of that puzzle. So maybe they get to start at piece 65, where I started at piece 32.[00:45:34] It builds those blocks. So I was able to get sober. I happened to get sober in 12 step and. There are lots of ways to get and stay sober. I happen to get sober in 12 Step, and my higher power is the people in those rooms and the people I work with at the rehab where I work now. I work as a prevention coach and sort of a recovery resource at Santa at Stowe.[00:45:58] It's a recovery in Stowe, Vermont. It's medical detox and recovery, and they are my higher power. I can't show up for them. Unless I'm sober, I can't go do my speaking engagements. I can't do my daily videos unless I show up sober because then I'm being completely inauthentic and I would be hungover and miserable.[00:46:18] But all of my stuff has been partially in service to getting control of my life back and being the parent that I know I need to be in order to raise two kids who might break the cycle of this. [00:46:36] Dr. McBride: What I'm hearing from you is that. Your sobriety is rooted in the 12 steps. It's also rooted in the ongoing process of helping other people, which is one of the tenets of AA is passing on your knowledge and wisdom to other people and, and making meaning out of an experience, and I think you really are making a difference.[00:46:55] I see people reading your book. I hear p people reading your book. I've had my kids listen to your videos, and not that they necessarily wanted to, but I have heard some good feedback because I think what happens when we talk about alcohol to adolescents is it often comes across as a parent as just a, a moralistic, judgmental, do as I say, conversation[00:47:22] Jessica: And not necessarily do as I do, because if…[00:47:25] Dr. McBride: not necessarily right. And then we go, poor gin and tonic. And they're like, Hmm. It's funny, one of my most popular posts on substack, like by a mile was the post I wrote called “Is Dry January a good idea? And I put it out on January one.[00:47:40] And I mean, the answer to the question in my mind was probably what you wouldn't be surprised to hear, which is that sure. It's only though scratching the surface of the curiosity and compassion and empathy we need to have about ourselves and about the why, because you can put a fence around a behavior for 30 days, 31, I guess, in January, and then on February 1 you can go to the pub and get plastered or just start drinking again.[00:48:07] The question isn't, can you give it up because you can…[00:48:10] Jessica: I gave it up for a year.[00:48:12] Dr. McBride: And for some people that's very hard, but the harder question is mining that interior landscape that is driving you to drink when you don't want to, if you're remorseful the next day, [and] you wish you hadn't done it. That is hard work, and it's much easier to put a fence around it for 31 days. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying do it and get curious.[00:48:34] Jessica: One of my favorite speaking gigs is, and don't hate me for this, but every six months or so I'm at Canyon Ranch, either in Tucson or Lennox, Massachusetts, and they put me up and give me a discount on spa stuff for me and my plus one, and I do my talks. But the cool thing about Canyon Ranch is that there's no alcohol served there.[00:48:55] And some people bring their own because they just can't be without it for a couple days. But there are plenty of people who go there and realize that they hadn't anticipated how difficult it was going to be for them to not have it there as an option. And, and then every—because Canyon Ranch was founded by someone for whom recovery is part of their story—there is a meeting there every single day at five and the people that often, and I often run those meetings and the people that show up at those meetings are often people who are like, “I don't really know why I'm here. All I know is it really bums me out that there's no alcohol here and I don't know what that's about.”[00:49:29] So, you know, it's a[00:49:31] Dr. McBride: great starting point.[00:49:32] Jessica: Well, and also a lot of people are there either by themselves or with a spouse and don't know anyone else there. So they feel like it's a super safe place to go to a first meeting anyway. Either way, it's a really cool place to get to do the kind of stuff that I do. Because it's opening the door for them in a way that maybe they hadn't anticipated.[00:49:51] Dr. McBride: Yeah, I mean it's self-discovery. I think about health as not an outcome, but a process of laddering up from self-awareness to acceptance to agency. I mean, the serenity prayer… I'm not in recovery, but people ask me if I am all the time. I mean from alcohol, I'm, I'm in recovery from other s**t that I do, but because I really understand and believe in the concept of the Serenity Prayer, which is accepting the things we cannot control, which is a lot, knowing ideally what we can control, and then understanding the difference and not spending so much time over here and shifting our energy and attention and curiosity to this spot.[00:50:31] Jessica: You want to hear something ridiculous? This is so interesting. So two things. When the book first came out, it was first getting its reviews and stuff like that. I got one review where it said very specifically that I parroted AA stuff. So first of all, I did not use anything AA in the entire book except in one spot.[00:50:52] I said, this is where something, for example, like the Serenity Prayer has been useful for me, and this is the restraints that we're dealing with when we talk about this stuff. Like that's why don't talk about AA because it is, the minute I refer to that, that is the only thing someone will hear. And then I'm just stuck.[00:51:11] Dr. McBride: And they associate it with, oh, AA that's like my crazy Uncle Sal. I just drink a gin and tonic every night. What's it to you? So I think that your approach that is honest, empathetic, rooted in data, and that stems from your own experience of being perfectly imperfect is really valuable. And so I just want to say thank you for being here and thank you for doing what you're doing and God speed.[00:51:38] Jessica: I am so grateful to you for just having this conversation. Every single time I have this conversation with someone, I get an email or a DM from someone saying, you know what? I'm scared too, and I don't know what to do. Or, I'm scared for my friend and I need to know how to help them. And so, you know, the more we talk about this, the more other people are gonna feel like they're allowed to talk about it too.[00:52:02] Dr. McBride: Thank you all for listening to Beyond the Prescription. Please don't forget to subscribe, like, download and share the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you catch your podcasts. I'd be thrilled if you like this episode to rate and review it. And if you have a comment or question, please drop us a line at info@lucymcbride.com. [00:52:24] The views expressed on this show are entirely my own and do not constitute medical advice for an individual. That should be obtained from your personal physician. Get full access to Are You Okay? at lucymcbride.substack.com/subscribe

Thanks for your patience!  Winter is tough. ______________________________________________ This episode includes graphic violence, archiac psychiatric attitudes and terminology, gaslighting, and misogyny.  It was written intentionally to emulate the style of Italian "GIALLO" thriller films of the 1970s and 80s. ______________________________________________ Hot chicks in peril, black leather-gloved killer, faces through plate glass, badly-dubbed voices, and lots and lots of the red stuff! Written and produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Dr. Silver - Anthony D.P. Mann Jessica - Julie Hoverson Adrienne - Robyn Keyes Dana - Kate Waterous Chris - Tanja Milojevic Inspector Gules - Glen Hallstrom Manager - Dru Williams Voice on Phone - Lord Blood-Rah Cop1 - Desmond Reddick (Dread Media) Cop2 - Miguel Guerreiro (FearShop.com) Coroner - Jack Kincaid (Edict Zero) Detective - Caretaker (Graveyard Show) Music:  Professor Kliq Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover: Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it?  Why it's a psychiatrist's office, can't you tell?" ________________________________________   WHEN YELLOW CASTS A CRIMSON SHADOW Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] Jessica Dr. Silver Dana Adrienne Chris Detective Gules Manager Voice Cop1 Cop2 Detective Coroner OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a psychiatrist's office, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND      LOW MUSIC PLAYS SOUND     DOOR OPENS JESSICA     Dr. Silver? SILVER Ah, you must be Jessica. Come in!  Come in.  Your father has spoken of you often. JESSICA     Mm.  He told me to come to you if I.... needed anything. SILVER Come in! Sit down!  I can't tactfully say I am pleased to see you, but I can heartily say I am most happy to make your acquaintance. JESSICA     Oh.  Yeah.  Thanks. SOUND     DOOR SHUTS QUIETLY, SHE CROSSES ROOM AND SITS SILVER There. Now tell me what I can do for you. JESSICA     Since I moved to Florence, I've - I've been doing really well.  Sleeping.  Even without the drugs. SILVER You haven't been taking your prescriptions? JESSICA     My doctor back home said I could cut back some - once I started feeling better. SILVER Your doctor--? JESSICA     Dr. Gelb.  Joan Gelb? SILVER Ah, yes, I am familiar with some of her work. Go on. JESSICA     Go... on? SILVER You had a reason for coming to me, didn't you? JESSICA     Oh!  Yes.  [very down] The dreams. SILVER [after a beat] Yes? JESSICA     Well, I came here to attend university.  And be closer to my father. SILVER He is not in the United States? JESSICA     No.  He's on diplomatic attachment in the Netherlands - [amused] but I don't understand any Dutch. SILVER [chuckles] JESSICA     So I found a room with three other girls from the college.  They're all models.  To pay for their classes.  Well, except Dana - she just models for fun...  Sorry.  That's probably not important.  SILVER Don't let it worry you. Go at your own pace. JESSICA     Can I have a piece of paper? SILVER You want to take notes? [teasing]  That's really my job. JESSICA     No, no!  It helps me concentrate.  Please? SOUND     PAPER RIPPED FROM NOTEBOOK, PASSED OVER JESSICA     Thank you. SOUND     PAPER FOLDED, TORN - UNDER THROUGHOUT JESSICA     So, Dana, Chris, and Adrienne - are all gorgeous.  I'm the mouse.  [heavy sigh] Don't get me wrong - they're all very nice. SILVER But you are a bit jealous? JESSICA     They've all got legs all the way up to their shoulders! SILVER [musing] A woman with legs up to her shoulders might be missing a heart. JESSICA     [startled, laughs, relaxes a bit]  I like that.  But, they're nice - really nice. SILVER You're lucky. Good friends are hard to find. JESSICA     Yes... [trails off, sighs, then absently]  The dream. SILVER Whenever you're ready. JESSICA     You're going to think I'm horrible! SILVER Nonsense. Dreams are primarily symbolic, and everyone dreams about things they are embarrassed by.  I promise not to judge you. JESSICA     [gulps, long breath] In the dream, I come home.  Our apartment is on the top floor, so I walk up and up the endless stairs.  It's the type that goes round and round an open space.  [her voice slowly picks up an echo, as if in a stairwell] You know, where you can look all the way down to the ground floor - as long as you don't have to worry about vertigo? SOUND [under]      FOOTSTEPS ECHOING UP THE STAIRWELL SILVER Mm. JESSICA     And the door was ... open. JESSICA [under] Hello? JESSICA     I pushed it the rest of the way, and went in.  And everything was red.  Red on the walls.  I couldn't understand.  All I could think was - did we repaint? SILVER Yes? JESSICA     And then I looked up and saw the light fixture.  It was red too.  Red and dripping.  [slowly] Slowly dripping. SILVER [after a pause] Is that when you woke? JESSICA     [hollow, numb] No.  [coming back]  Can I have another piece of paper?  I'll trade you. SILVER A crane? Very nice. JESSICA     It was... part of my therapy. SOUND     PAPER RIPS, PASSED OVER, MORE FOLDING BEGINS SILVER Still... very nice. JESSICA     Thanks.  [deep breath]  I went into the next room.  [half a chuckle]  Out of the foyer into the frying pan.  [lame laugh]  You must think I'm awful, to be able to joke at a time like this! SILVER No. Humor is a very common way to deal with painful circumstances.  Don't concern yourself with what I think. JESSICA     Adrienne was in the sitting room.  [trying not to choke up]  Dead.  She was - all cut up, and the mirror next to the kitchen door was smashed and bloody.  I could see my reflection in the shards ....sticking ...out of her ...eyes. JESSICA [tinny] [screams] SILVER [after a short moment] Was that where the dream ended? JESSICA     [trying to be chipper]  Yes.  Just that.  Just... seeing her dead. SILVER I'd... like to venture an interpretation of this dream that might help you... come to terms with it. JESSICA     Yes? SILVER It's a manifestation of a deep-seated jealousy. JESSICA     I'm not jealous! SILVER It's normal - don't worry. She's a beautiful model and you want to see yourself in her eyes as she appears to yours.  JESSICA     [brightening] Really?  But it was so bloody. SILVER Symbolism again. Red is the color of jealousy and passion.  Nothing more. MUSIC SOUND     HER FOOTSTEPS ECHO UP ENDLESS STAIRWAY SOUND     HEAVY FOOTSTEPS BELOW SOUND     HER FOOTSTEPS STOP SOUND     A COUPLE OF HEAVY FOOTSTEPS, APPROACHING SOUND     HER FOOTSTEPS, RUNNING UP THE STAIRS SOUND     SHE PAUSES AGAIN JESSICA     [heavy breathing, trying to be quiet and listen] SOUND     NO FOOTSTEPS SOUND     THUMPING SOUNDS APPROACH - SETS OF FOUR SOUND     TURNS OUT TO BE A BALL COMING DOWN THE STAIRS SOUND     SHE CATCHES THE BALL JESSICA     [sigh, chuckle] CHILD     [strangely bland] My ball! JESSICA     [gasp, almost a scream]  Oh!  [more normal] I've got it. SOUND     HER STEPS BEGIN AGAIN MUSIC SOUND     DOOR OPENS DANA     [lecturing] I only eat chocolate off a man. JESSICA     [gasp] CHRIS     Ha!  What a line to come in on!  Dana was just explaining her perfect diet plan. ADRIENNE     It makes perfect sense - work up a sweat, then have all the chocolate you want! JESSICA     You girls. DANA     Don't tell me you wouldn't, if you had a chance? JESSICA     Well... CHRIS     Maybe she doesn't like chocolate! ADRIENNE     Maybe she doesn't like men. JESSICA     I like chocolate!  My father sent me some cocoa - the good Dutch kind. DANA     I'm surprised you like men any more, Adrienne, after all that bastard Alberto put you through. ADRIENNE     Don't get me started.  [beat]  You should really be allowed to shoot men when you're through with them.  CHRIS     I'd have a trail of bodies stretching to the sunset. JESSICA     Are there any more of those apples? DANA     Catch! SOUND      CATCHING AN APPLE CHRIS     What would we do when we run out of men? ADRIENNE     [bitter, haunted] Not all men, just the ones who want to track you down and torment you. DANA     He didn't! CHRIS     Again? JESSICA     [bites into apple, then chewing]  What? DANA      You should tell her. ADRIENNE     It makes me sound like such a victim. DANA     Why do you think she never does bikini shots? CHRIS     She's moved three times in the past year - but he always finds her. DANA     She's got the scars to prove it. MUSIC SOUND     SOFT MUSIC PLAYS SOUND     DOOR SLAMS OPEN, HURRIED FEET ENTER JESSICA     It  happened again! SILVER Calm down, Jessica. JESSICA     I'm - I'm so sorry to burst in here like this-- SILVER Sit down. JESSICA     But I - I can't concentrate on anything today-- SOUND     PAPER RIPPING FROM NOTEBOOK SILVER Here. Now sit. SOUND     SHE SNATCHES THE PAPER, FLAPS IT JESSICA     Thank you.  Are you sure it's ok? SILVER I've got plenty of paper. JESSICA     [chuckles] No, I mean-- [sighs] Thank you. SOUND     SHE SITS, BEGINS FOLDING JESSICA     I feel like such a fool. SILVER It obviously upset you. Sharing will make you feel better.  You had another dream? JESSICA     No!  That's the weird part - it was the same dream! SILVER The same? JESSICA     Well, it started the same.  Going up the stairs, and the blood on the light, and ... [almost a whisper] Adrienne. SILVER And...? JESSICA     It was all the same - except the ending.  SILVER How did it end, then? JESSICA     It didn't.  I mean - it went on, from where I woke up before.  SILVER Hmm. JESSICA     I was staring at myself in the mirror shards - but then I realized it wasn't me.  Not Jessica.  Not this time - that was different.  SILVER Who was in the reflection? JESSICA     I think it was.... the killer! [NOTE - now the voices in the consulting room are tinny, as the scene plays out underneath] SOUND     [repeat of Jessica's scream from the first dream, which trails off into a weird noise of breathing] SOUND     FOOTSTEPS WALK SLOWLY THROUGH SQUISHY BLOODY PUDDLE SILVER Be as specific as you want. You won't shock me.  You can give me every detail. JESSICA      I can smell the blood.  It's everywhere.  SILVER It's quite a distinctive smell. JESSICA      Yes. SOUND     DOOR PUSHED SLOWLY OPEN, FOOTSTEPS MOVE INTO DRY SPACE SOUND     SQUEAK AS KNIFE IS CLEANED OFF - LEATHER AGAINST METAL SOUND     FOUR TAPS OF KNIFE AGAINST WOOD JESSICA      It was Dana's room.  And she was sleeping. SILVER So this was nighttime? JESSICA      [slightly confused] I don't know.  Dana sleeps late.  SILVER Jessica - in the dream, are you Jessica, or are you the killer? JESSICA      I - I'm not sure.  I'm not... thinking in the dream, just seeing and feeling... and smelling.  I can't see a face - even in the mirrors - I just knew it was the killer looking back at me, but I couldn't tell you what he...I...looked like. SILVER [too interested] What are you wearing? JESSICA      Boots.  Black.  Leather gloves.  I move toward Dana's bed... SOUND     CREAK OF THE LEATHER GLOVES SILVER Do you stab her too? JESSICA      [offhand] Oh, Adrienne wasn't stabbed - at least... that wasn't how she died.  She was strangled.  SOUND     CREAK OF LEATHER DANA     [gasps, awakens, tries to breathe] SOUND     CLAWING AT LEATHER, SHAKING OF BED, POUNDING SILVER And then she died? JESSICA      Oh, no.  That would be too quick.  I let up just in time - she's out. SILVER [licks his lips] Do you tie her up? JESSICA      Yes.  I tie her to the bed frame.  Up and down. SILVER What is she wearing? JESSICA      A scarlet negligee.  She got it after one of her modeling shoots - the picture is on the wall over the bed.  Huge.  Her.  Posed in red.  Enticing. SOUND     [tinny] CRUMPLE OF PAPER SILVER And then...? JESSICA      [coming out of it]  I-I- can I have another piece of paper? SILVER [breathing a bit heavily, trying to calm down] Of course. SOUND     PAPER TORN RATHER CLUMSILY OUT OF NOTEBOOK - RIPS IN HALF SILVER Damn. What will you make? SOUND     TEARS ANOTHER PIECE, SHE SNATCHES IT AWAY FROM HIM, BEGINS FOLDING JESSICA      A box.  I feel like I'm in a box. SILVER Perhaps you should make something more... open. Something you can get out of. JESSICA      Maybe next time. SILVER All right. Was there more to the dream? JESSICA      A little.  After Dana woke up.  SILVER [trying to hide his excitement] What happened? JESSICA      [evasive] I just... killed her. MUSIC ESCALATES SOUND     STABBING - SETS OF FOUR DANA     [Screaming, begging, gurgling] SOUND     SPLATTER DANA     [gurgling] SOUND     A COUPLE MORE KNIFE STABS DANA     [death rattle] SOUND     DRIPPING SOUND     WIPING KNIFE WITH GLOVES AGAIN MUSIC SOUND     FOOTSTEPS IN STAIRWELL, STOP FOR A SECOND SOUND     FAR AWAY, DOOR OPENS JESSICA     [sigh] SOUND     TWO STEPS SOUND     DOOR NEARBY SLAMS OPEN SOUND     FEROCIOUS DOG!!!!! JESSICA     [screams, then smothers it] SOUND     SCRABBLING OF DOG NAILS ON TILE FLOOR JESSICA     Mrs. Amarelo!  Mrs. Amarelo!  Please! MUSIC SOUND     TEAPOT WHISTLING, TAKEN OFF, WATER POURS JESSICA     [talking loudly to someone in another room] She really needs to keep that dog on a shorter leash.  She's lucky I didn't jump back and fall down the stairs. SOUND     DOOR OPENS, SLIPPERED FEET IN DANA     [half awake]  Mm.  Coffee? JESSICA     [silly!] Cocoa.  [gasp] Oh! DANA     You don't like it?  It's imported French lace. JESSICA     I'm just not used to-- DANA     And red is such a good color on me. ADRIENNE     [calling from the other room] --she's just shy. SOUND     FOOTSTEPS COME IN ADRIENNE     [close] Haven't you ever wondered, Jessica? JESSICA     [disturbed]  Wondered... what? SOUND     A COUPLE OF STEPS DANA     Mmm? ADRIENNE     What it would be like with a woman? JESSICA     [disturbed] Um - no.  Uh, I don't even know anyone who does-- ADRIENNE     Anyone who you KNOW does, anyway. JESSICA     Um... I guess. SOUND     DOOR SLAMS OPEN CHRIS     [freaking out, out of breath] Oh, god!  SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SHUT, BODY THUMPS AGAINST IT ADRIENNE     What's wrong?  Sit down! SOUND     DOOR LOCKS JESSICA     Cocoa? CHRIS     Thanks!  [sips, then shudders in a breath] ADRIENNE     What happened? CHRIS     [gasping it out] On the street.  A gun! It was so loud!  DANA     Someone was shot?  I'm phoning the police. ADRIENNE     Give her a minute!  She's nearly hysterical! CHRIS     No!  No!  Call them!  The sooner I tell, the sooner he'll be caught! JESSICA     Did you see the guy? CHRIS     Uh-huh! [yes] MUSIC SOUND     LOW MUSIC PLAYS SOUND     PAPER FOLDING JESSICA     I have this awful feeling-- SILVER Yes? JESSICA     That this is all... some kind of premonition. SILVER You think you're seeing something that might happen in the future? JESSICA     It would make so much sense. SILVER Is there anything in the dream that makes you think it will happen? JESSICA     Like what? SILVER Something with the date? A newspaper, perhaps? JESSICA     [concentrating]  Mmm, no.  None of us really reads the papers.  Magazines, yes, but they don't come out that often.  [beat] And they all kind of look the same. SILVER Have you ever had a dream - any dream - come true in the past? JESSICA     What?  [half a chuckle] No! SILVER Then I think you are safe. [teasing, fatherly] But make sure to lock your door. JESSICA     [laughs a bit] SILVER [getting back on track] So. The dream came back.  Again. JESSICA     [quiet, sad] Yes. SILVER And it was--? JESSICA     Longer. SILVER [avid] So once again, you saw your first two friends strangled and tortured and-- [swallows] mutilated. JESSICA     Yes.  SILVER And then? What about your third friend - what was her name? JESSICA     Chris.  [numb]  Chris was in the hall.  She must have heard the commotion with Dana.  I... feel like the killer was - ummmm - surprised.  Like he didn't expect her to be there. SILVER Why do you say that? JESSICA     I don't know.  Just that he - I - had to chase her down. SILVER Be specific. JESSICA     I came out of Dana's bedroom-- [office voices go tinny] SOUND     SQUISHING FOOTSTEPS, WIPE FEET AND STEP ONTO TILE SOUND     DOOR OPENS CHRIS     Dana?  What?  Oh, god!  [screams] JESSICA     I hesitate, stunned.  Just long enough for her to run back into her room. SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SOUND     HEAVY FEET RUN, SLAM INTO DOOR CHRIS     [muffled] No!  No! SOUND     SLAM INTO DOOR, WOOD CREAKS AND CRACKS JESSICA     There's such a - a rush as the door gives way. SILVER Where is Chris? JESSICA     She's pressed again the window, outlined in light from the pink and red neon across the street. SILVER Ahhhh. What is she wearing? JESSICA     Silk.  A blue slip-- SILVER Blue? Are you sure? JESSICA     Yes.  Why? SILVER The neon light - it might be deceptive. JESSICA     I saw it in the hall. SILVER Ahhh. What color is her hair?  JESSICA     Chris?  She has long straight blonde hair.  SILVER And very pretty. JESSICA     Yes. SILVER Mmmmm. SOUND     WINDOW SLAMS OPEN JESSICA     I raise the knife and she screams again, trying to climb out the window. SILVER Can she? JESSICA     We're six stories up.  That's why there's all those stairs. SILVER Do you... cut her? JESSICA     Better.  I set the knife aside again-- SOUND     LEATHER ON METAL JESSICA      --and take her by the throat.  The black leather of the gloves looks strange in the neon pink glow - especially against her pale white throat. SILVER Does she struggle? JESSICA     Like a fiend.  She strikes and kicks, but it is all in vain.  [coming out of it] The killer must be a man. SILVER [startled out] Um? Of course--  Um, [swallows, clears throat] The um - the killer in the dream. JESSICA     That's what I meant. SILVER Right. More paper? SOUND     RIPS PAPER OUT OF NOTEBOOK JESSICA     Thanks. SOUND     TAKES IT, STARTS FOLDING SILVER You've made me quite a little collection here. What's this one? JESSICA     A knife.  SILVER [amused] A paper knife. And this? JESSICA     A shrew. SILVER No more cranes? JESSICA     Cranes are peaceful.  I haven't been feeling very... peaceful. SILVER Do you want to continue? JESSICA     Don't you have another appointment? SILVER No. Your case is fascinating, so I cleared some extra time for you. JESSICA     Oh.  All right. SILVER At least follow the dream to the conclusion. JESSICA     Where was I? SILVER [too quick] You were strangling Chris. SOUND     STRANGLING NOISES UP AGAIN SOUND     HAND POUNDING AGAINST GLASS [voices go tinny again] JESSICA     Right.  Then she passed out. SOUND     STRUGGLE STOPS, SQUEAK OF HAND SLIDING DOWN PANE SILVER Gooood. SOUND     ROPE PASSING THROUGH HANDS SILVER And--? JESSICA     I took the cord from the blinds and wrapped it around her neck. SILVER Strangling her? Again?  Why? JESSICA     It wasn't tied that tight. SILVER Then, what? JESSICA     Then I cut her a little.  Not deep.  Just enough to see red - just enough for the blood to flow.  Shoulders.  Thighs.  Chest.  It took a long time for her to wake up again. SILVER Did you cut her blue slip off? JESSICA     It's not blue any more.  Now it's wet and dark in strange rivulet patterns.  So is the floor. SILVER And then? JESSICA     Her eyes open - and once again I see my own reflection twice in one face.  And this time I can almost make out who I am.  If it weren't for that darn pink neon, I might be able to. SILVER Does SHE recognize you? JESSICA     [dismissively] Maybe.  She tries to scream.  But I already gagged her.  [little sigh]  She was asleep a long time. SILVER Uh-huh? JESSICA     I pull her up by her hair - her long blonde lovely hair.  The word "tresses" pops into my mind. SILVER Tresses. That's a good word. JESSICA     She squirms and tries to escape.  Her eyes plead with me.  But I don't waver.  I show her the knife and she closes her eyes.  I run the hilt of the knife over her forehead and she squeals - when really all I want to do is press her eyelids open. SILVER She can't understand that, can she? JESSICA     I just want her to see.  She was always a big one for seeing things. SILVER See what? JESSICA     The window. SILVER Is there something outside? JESSICA     Not yet. SILVER Oh? JESSICA     As soon as her eyelids flutter open, I turn her toward the window and slam her face into it, shattering the glass.  Something breaks in her, too, and I hear her muffled agony. SILVER Her nose? JESSICA     I don't know, since as soon as the glass is gone, I push her out. SILVER On the cord? JESSICA     She dances so prettily.  SILVER Do the people outside see? JESSICA     No, the music from the club with the neon is very loud, and no one ever looks up. SILVER What about the blood? JESSICA     I don't know.  I woke up. SILVER [breathing heavily, calming down] JESSICA     What do you think? SILVER We definitely have some work to do. You'll see me each afternoon for a while - can you promise me you will? JESSICA     Of course, if you think it's important. SILVER Very. And here is my home number-- SOUND     SCRIBBLING ON A CARD SILVER --In case anything else comes to mind. JESSICA     You're sure you don't mind if I call you? SILVER No. Of course not.  In fact, I insist.  I am here for you. MUSIC AMB     STREET, NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE AROUND SOUND     JESSICA'S STEPS, HURRYING SOUND     A STRANGE TAPPING NOISE - SETS OF FOUR - GETTING CLOSER SOUNDS     SHE SPEEDS UP SOUND     THE TAPPING GETS CLOSER SOUND     SHE SPEEDS UP MORE JESSICA     [gasping] SOUND     GRAB AND FLING OPEN DOOR SOUND     FEET RUN INTO BUILDING SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SHUT JESSICA     [breathing heavily]  SOUND     TAPS GO PAST OUTSIDE JESSICA     [sighs, almost laughs] MANAGER     [off slightly] Scotomaphobia? JESSICA     [gasps] SOUND     THUMP AS SHE RECOILS JESSICA     What?  Mr. Cramoisie?  You - you startled me! SOUND     CIGARETTE CRUSHED OUT MANAGER     The fear of going blind. JESSICA     Huh? Me? MANAGER     I saw you run from the white stick.  [chuckles] And I don't know a word for fear of a blind man. MUSIC SOUND     DOOR OPENS TENTATIVELY JESSICA     [clearly worried] Hello? ADRIENNE     Jess?  Is there something wrong? JESSICA     [sigh of relief]  No.  Nothing.  Glad to be home. SOUNDS     STEPS COME IN, DOOR SHUTS SOUND     REMOVING COAT, ETC. DANA     I was just putting on some tea - want some? JESSICA     No, thanks.  Save me some water, though? ADRIENNE     You and your cocoa.  Come in here - we've got company. SOUND     A FEW SLOW STEPS JESSICA     Oh?  Hello. GULES     Ah.  This must be your other roommate.  Very pleased.  Four such lovely ladies, [slightly ominous] all alone. CHRIS     This is Detective Gules.  That is Jessica.  Sit down Jessie.  JESSICA     Detective? SOUND     CHAIR CREAKS AS SHE SITS CHRIS     He's investigating - um - [whispered] what I saw yesterday. GULES     We suspect the murder she witnessed was gangster-related, and are concerned for her safety.  Your safety, too.  This isn't a very secure building.  You don't even have grilles on the windows. DANA     Pssht!  We're six floors up!  Who needs grilles!  Here, Jess.  Water-- SOUND     MUG SET DOWN DANA     And your precious cocoa. SOUND     TIN SOUND     SPOON DROPPED INTO MUG DANA     [to the room, teasing] I wouldn't dare measure it for you. JESSICA     [laughs]  That's perfect, Dana, thanks.  SOUND     MIXES UP THE COCOA GULES     I'm trying to convince Chris to let me take her into protection.  [getting darker] We want to make sure she stays where we can put our hands on her. MUSIC SOUND     PHONE PICKED UP JESSICA     Hello?  VOICE     [harsh whisper]  Four girls.  Could be three.  Or one. JESSICA     Who is this?  You're scaring me. VOICE     Will it be you? JESSICA     I'm hanging up now! SOUND     PHONE SLAMMED DOWN DANA     [worried] Jess?  Who was that? JESSICA     A heavy breather.  You know the type. DANA     I didn't even hear the phone ring. JESSICA     Oh?  Umm... I must have picked it up just as it was starting.  Who did you think it was? DANA     Oh, Michel.  My brother.  He's been asking for money again.  JESSICA     What's wrong this time? DANA     Same old shit.  Someone's going to break his legs.  Someone's going to kill his dog.  [disgusted noise]  He ran through his half of the inheritance years ago. JESSICA     And you don't feel sorry for him? DANA     I felt one hundred thousand dollars sorry for him, and that was in the first month after he flushed all his cash down one toilet and another.  Since then.  [shrug]  Not so damn sorry. MUSIC SOUND     SNORING [Dr. Silver] SOUND     PHONE RINGS SOUND     PHONE PICKED UP SILVER [not awake] mmm Hello? JESSICA     [on phone, hysterical] Doctor?  Please?  Something terrible has happened! SILVER [snapping awake, but still groggy] Jessica? Wha-what's going on? JESSICA     [on phone] You have to come, Doctor!  I need help!  [backs off and screams] SOUND     [on phone] PHONE DROPS, THUMPS A FEW TIMES. SOUND     BED CLOTHES FLUNG OFF MUSIC SOUND     DOC'S FEET COMING UP THE STAIRS, QUICKLY SILVER [reading door numbers] 601... 602...? JESSICA     [moan]  SILVER Jessica? What has happened? JESSICA     D-doctor?  SILVER Come out here. My god - what--? JESSICA     A nosebleed.  I - I get them sometimes. SILVER With the dreams? JESSICA     Uh-huh. SILVER Why are you out here in the hall? JESSICA     I didn't want to wake anyone. SILVER They're your friends. They will surely understand.  Let's go inside.  [suave] Maybe have some of your famous cocoa? JESSICA     [small laugh]  That would be nice. SILVER Invite me in? SOUND     DOOR OPENS JESSICA     You're invited. SOUND     A COUPLE OF STEPS, A SLIGHT SQUISH SILVER [slight shock] What? MUSIC JESSICA     [sips, then] The dream was sooo bad this time. SILVER [grunt] JESSICA     Then I found these-- SOUND     SLAP OF LEATHER GLOVES JESSICA     And suddenly everything started to be so real.  But it can't be, can it? SILVER [grunt] JESSICA     I hoped I would wake up, and the gloves would be gone, but here they are. SOUND     GLOVES CREAK SILVER [agreeing grunt] JESSICA     It's really good isn't it?  Is it too hot for you? SILVER [slight overreaction negative grunt] JESSICA     My father sent it.  From the Netherlands.  He's always somewhere else.  I mean somewhere else from where I am, anyway.  Did I tell you how my mother died? SILVER [negative] JESSICA     She committed suicide when I was 5.  I found her.  Dr. Gelb says that's why I can't sleep.  She says I can never forget my mother's dead eyes.   SILVER Hmm? JESSICA     They looked at me, but they weren't really her any more, you know? SILVER Hmm. JESSICA     [briskly] But this is all beside the point.  I'm so glad the girls are heavy sleepers.  So we can talk. SILVER Mm-hmm. JESSICA     [very important]  I finally saw myself in the dream. SILVER Mmm? JESSICA     I mean, I, in the killer's eyes, saw me - Jessica.  Do you know how frightening that could be?  The idea that I could not only watch myself be butchered, but that I would somehow be behind the eyes of the one doing it? SILVER [sigh] JESSICA     [sips]  SOUND     SETS DOWN CUP, PICKS UP PIECE OF PAPER, STARTS FOLDING JESSICA     Somehow, when I have a piece of paper in my hands, the dream fades into something that might have been on the television. SILVER Hmm. JESSICA     [beat, then] Once Chris was dead, the killer must have pulled her back in.  She was on the bed, starred with glass in the dark.  Pink stars, catching the neon. SILVER Mmm. JESSICA     I watch his black gloved hand push open my own bedroom door.  I'm lying on the bed, tossing in my sleep.  SILVER Umm. JESSICA     The knife in my - his - hand leads me to the bed.  To the woman.  To me. SILVER Umm? JESSICA     [agreeing] I know.  SOUND     [off slightly]  DOOR SLAMS OPEN JESSICA     What? COP1     [off] Oh my god! COP2     [off] [trying not to hurl] SOUND     HER SQUISHY, STICKY BARE FOOTSTEPS JESSICA     [way too calm, calling]  Chris?  Did you call for the police?  [to the police] You should have knocked. COP1     What the hell?  What... the ... hell! COP2     Is all that...blood? JESSICA     What?  Oh, the nosebleed.  Sorry, I should have changed into something fresh.  Would you like some cocoa? COP1     [calling back over his shoulder] Watch where you step! MUSIC     SOUND     GURNEY AFTER GURNEY BEING WHEELED OUT BEHIND THEM SOUND     DOG BARKING DOWN THE HALL, KEEPS GOING COP1     It's bad, sir. COP2     You might want some shoe covers. DETECTIVE     Who could have done such an awful thing? COP2     Someone crazy.  Truly out of his mind. DETECTIVE     Or her mind. COP1     Do you have any reason to suspect a woman? DETECTIVE     [shrug] I suspect everyone.  How many bodies? CORONER     Four bodies.  And one clinging to life. DETECTIVE     And the smell? CORONER     Rotting flesh.  [long sniff]  Been lying here several days, if I don't miss my guess.  MUSIC end

My guests this week are Jessica Honegger and Liz Bohannon. Jessica is the author of Imperfect Courage and founder of the socially conscious fashion brand Noonday Collection. Liz is the founder of Sseko Designs, an ethical fashion brand that works to educate and empower women. She is also the newly named chief growth officer of Noonday Collection. Today we're talking about the merge heard around the fair trade world that happened this summer when Noonday Collection and Sseko Designs came together. Jessica and Liz have been on the show before, but today's conversation will be extra special. 6:05 – Jessica 201 Jessica's company is a one-stop fully ethical shop that creates opportunities for artisans living in some of the world's most vulnerable places. She is a mom of three and has a book, a podcast and a love of queso and margaritas. 7:20 – Liz 201 She joined Noonday and is working to grow the company's global artisan impact and community of entrepreneurs in the U.S. Liz believes every girl should have the opportunity to learn and to lead. She has three young boys and also loves queso and margaritas. 17:22 – Counterculture Liz and Jessica are living counter culturally by working together instead of competing against each other. They spent many hours having difficult conversations about how to merge their businesses. Their business cares for women around the world. 32:23 – Going into business together Long ago, I felt like Liz and Jessica should go into business together but never told them. Their work is a beautiful testament to who they are. 40:35 – A faithful, consistent partner 11 years ago, Liz hired Agnes “Aggie” Netunze, of Uganda, as an intern. She later became the company's general manager. Aggie has been the most faithful, consistent work partner Liz has ever had. Aggie is now the majority owner of Sseko Uganda. 46:16 – Running a business with purpose Liz and Jessica are leaning into their shared purpose. They are using business to create opportunities for women by staying curious and gritty and open. FEATURED QUOTES Every girl should have the opportunity to learn and to lead. – Liz This is why women should run the world. You can do hard things. – Liz Our business is what cares for so many women around the world. – Jessica You don't know what God is doing. Someday we'll get to see the full picture. – Jessica CONNECT: https://mollystillman.noondaycollection.com/  https://www.jessicahonegger.com/ http://lizbohannon.co/ Thank you to our partners of the show! Are you looking to clean up your household cleaning products this year? MamaSuds would like to help! The best way is to simply start with one product. Every time you run out of a specific cleaning product, replace it with a non-toxic one. Another tip, purchase a product that has multiple uses. The MamaSuds Collection has many multiple use products (castile soap or the toilet bombs are just a few!). Their blog has lots of great tips and a castile soap recipe that you can print and make a lot of your own effective cleaners! Give them a try at www.mamasuds.com and don't forget to use the coupon code MOLLY for 15% off your order! I'd like to thank our other partner of the show and that's Tradlands. Tradlands is an INCREDIBLE sustainable fashion brand that believes in clothing that you can live in NOW and love forever. Clothing that not only makes you feel like your best self, but also fits in a way that flatters. Their gorgeous dresses, pants, tops, and more are designed to move with you throughout your busy days. Their Nico dress is my dress in a love language —not only does it have sleeves, but also POCKETS and you know how I feel about dresses with pockets. I love how comfortable and stylish each piece - and they come in colors like classic neutrals or vibrant hues. One of the things I love most about Tradlands is their focus on sustainability and creating small batch clothing that lasts… they never over produce what they make and focus on only the highest quality materials. And you know how much I love supporting small businesses, too. Check them out at https://tradlands.com/businesswithpurpose and use the code MOLLY20 for 20% off!

Trigger warning: this episode discusses mental health, depression and anxiety as well as chronic pain.Jessica Macguire who has worked as a trauma informed integrated physio therapist for 14 years and is currently running programs on the vagus nerve.She aims to help people get to the cause of the problems, rather than relying on others to treat their symptomsShe has studied neuro physiology throughout Europe, America, the UK and Australia and has learnt from pain researchers, professors in neuro plasticity, neuro scientists and psychologists on how the brain and nervous system change from stress, trauma and chronic pain.Stress related illness such as anxiety, depression gut disorders, autoimmune issues and chronic pain can arise from dysregulation after chronic trauma and stressIn today's episode Jessica shares:- How the vagus nerve and the parasympathetic nervous system can affect our health- How the isolating techniques of medicine can hinder rather than help diagnosis- Her advice for learning more about the vagus nerve and how it can help youKey Quotes“We may learn to cut off from sensations and live almost numb from out body. But either that that is creating an inner homelessness.”“We really need to lean into the complexities, rather than trying to over simplify.”“What I may find stressful may not be stressful to you, and no two people will have the same experience of pain or trauma.”If you want to know more about Jessica You can head to her website: https://www.jessicamaguire.com/Or you can follow her on social media,Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/repairingthenervoussystem/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/repairing_the_nervous_system/?hl=enIf you want to find out more about what Ali does, check out her business via the website:http://www.trialtitudeperformance.com.au/personality-performanceFor her other business you can find it through the websites:www.altitudefitnessarmidale.com.auOr you can follow them on Instagram:@Altitudefitnessarmidale@trialtitudeperformance Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

“People with titles of leadership are just people who are equally as sensitive and emotional as everyone else. Learning to draw emotional boundaries, mental compartmentalization, and not letting people in is the growth edge,” shares Jessica Zweig, CEO and founder of SimplyBe Agency. She joins host Kiley Peters to discuss the intricacies of authenticity in leadership and how to determine just how much of yourself to share with others.  The pandemic changed a lot of things, a major one being work culture and expectations. It is no longer enough for leaders to solely focus on profits and getting the job done, especially not when consumers and employees alike are looking to leaders as the voice of an organization's values. It is more important than ever for leaders to be vulnerable and authentic and to really pay attention to their own personal branding. However, it is just as important to not overshare and to understand when and what is appropriate to share. Jessica explains that you can be transparent and open without giving away every piece of yourself. It can be a difficult line to draw, but is a very necessary one to maintain a healthy distance for the sake of yourself.  Boundaries are still important even when embracing authenticity. Tune into this week's episode of Welcome to Eloma for a conversation with Jessica Zweig about how to be a more authentic leader. Learn when it's appropriate to share and what is better left to your therapist's office.  Quotes “People with titles of leadership are just people who are equally as sensitive and emotional as everyone else. So learning to draw emotional boundaries, mental compartmentalization and not letting people in is the growth edge.” (12:15-12:42 | Jessica) “I'm not here to make everyone feel good all the time. My expectation is that you do your job and you perform. When you do your job well, I pay you a salary. That's the transaction. And it's hard for me as a super empath.” (13:38-13:55 | Jessica) “You grow a thicker skin and you grow an edge when you don't have the time to care so much about what people think of you or how people are feeling, but you care how people perform. That is what you need to do when you start to grow. And the stakes get higher, and the boats get bigger, and the overhead is more expensive month to month.” (17:18-17:40 | Jessica) “You have to sort of be vulnerable, and honest, and transparent, and authentic to be believable.” (20:30-20:38 | Jessica)  “You deserve 1,000% of you. That's it. Not hundreds or thousands of people who don't really know you online, as much as their energy is beautiful and well intentioned. You don't owe anything to anybody.” (35:55-36:07 | Jessica)  Links Connect with Welcome to Eloma Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/welcometoeloma ( @welcometoeloma) Website:http://welcometoeloma.com/ ( WelcometoEloma.com) Weekly Email Newsletter:https://rayneix.us19.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=ef5b203d3a56f90cbd51c7a54&id=9db6f8746e ( bit.ly/RIXEmail )   Connect with Kiley Social:https://www.instagram.com/kileypeters/ ( @kileypeters) +https://www.linkedin.com/in/kileypeters ( Linkedin.com/in/kileypeters) Websites:https://rayneix.com/ ( RAYNEIX.com) ,https://brainchildstudios.com/ ( BrainchildStudios.com),https://kileypeters.com/ ( KileyPeters.com) Weekly Email Newsletter:https://rayneix.us19.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=ef5b203d3a56f90cbd51c7a54&id=9db6f8746e ( bit.ly/RIXEmail) Email: info@rayneix.com   Connect with Jessica Zweig   Website: https://www.jessicazweig.com/ (https://www.jessicazweig.com/) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicazweig/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicazweig/)

In today's episode, I chat with Jessica from The Fioneers, an award-winning blog that focuses on building financial freedom and designing a life you truly love. Jessica is a full-time human being and a part-time writer and lifestyle design coach. We talk about how she recovered from burnout and how she had a transformative time with her relationship with money. Learn how she manages her mental health today and uses money to design a new life. "You deserve to actually feel better." - Jessica "You don't need to stay in the difficult place that you're in just because others might have it worse. We all deserve to thrive and a rising tide lifts all the boats." - Jessica What You Will Learn From This Episode Experiencing burnout from work and the steps that you can take to get sick leave, get paid, and deal with your mental health How dialectical behavioral therapy helps Jessica How self-care by subtraction, burnout recovery activities, and self-discovery work Getting back up again and starting entrepreneurship that supplements her mental health Ways to build financial freedom now to help you enjoy life and improve mental health before reaching FI (what is coast FI) What Jessica is doing now to help with her money and mental health Tips if you're at a crisis point with your work and mental health About Jessica: Jessica is a full-time human being and a part-time writer and lifestyle design coach. She is a co-founder of the blog, The Fioneers, a globally recognized and award-winning resource focused on building financial freedom and designing a life you truly love. In her free time, you can find her spending time outdoors with her husband and dog, road tripping in her camper van, and playing complex board games. Resources: Paying Off Debt, Reaching FI, and Dealing with Online Hate: An Interview with Jillian Johnsrud Burnout Recovery: 6 Strategies I Found Super Helpful by Jessica You are Not Your Job: How to Reclaim your Identity by Jessica How to Set Boundaries at Work by Jessica Connect with Jessica thefioneers.com Instagram Twitter Connect with Melanie mentalhealthandwealth.com melanielockert.com Instagram Support the podcast through Ko-Fi Buy Melanie's book “Dear Debt” Contact: mentalhealthandwealthshow@gmail.com   Want more content and support? Sign up for the Mental Hump Newsletter and get our free Mental Health and Money inventory worksheet. You can sign up at MentalHealthandWealth.com. Also, we host a Mental Health and Wealth Hangout every other Thursday over Zoom at 5 pm PT to chat about all things money and mental health. Join here! Follow us on Apple Podcast or Libsyn! Love the podcast? Leave a review on iTunes!

00:58 - Paul's Superpower: Participating in Scary Things 02:19 - EventStorming (https://www.eventstorming.com/) * Optimized For Collaboration * Visualizing Processes * Working Together * Sticky (Post-it) Notes (https://www.post-it.com/3M/en_US/post-it/products/~/Post-it-Products/Notes/?N=4327+5927575+3294529207+3294857497&rt=r3) 08:35 - Regulation: Avoiding Overspecifics * “The Happy Path” * Timeboxing * Parking Lot (https://project-management.fandom.com/wiki/Parking_lot) * Inside Pixar (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13302848/#:~:text=This%20documentary%20series%20of%20personal,culture%20of%20Pixar%20Animation%20Studios.) * Democratization * Known Unknowns 15:32 - Facilitation and Knowledge Sharing * Iteration and Refinement * Knowledge Distillation / Knowledge Crunching * Clarifying Terminology: Semantics is Meaning * Embracing & Exposing Fuzziness (Complexities) 24:20 - Key Events * Narrative Shift * Domain-Driven Design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-driven_design) * Shift in Metaphor 34:22 - Collaboration & Teamwork * Perspective * Mitigating Ambiguity 39:29 - Remote EventStorming and Facilitation * Miro (https://miro.com/) * MURAL (https://www.mural.co/) 47:38 - EventStorming vs Event Sourcing (https://martinfowler.com/eaaDev/EventSourcing.html) * Sacrificing Rigor For Collaboration 51:14 - Resources * The EventStorming Handbook (https://leanpub.com/eventstorming_handbook) * Paul's Upcoming Workshops (https://www.virtualgenius.com/events) * @thepaulrayner (https://twitter.com/thepaulrayner) Reflections: Mandy: Eventstorming and its adjacence to Technical Writing. Damien: You can do this on a small and iterative scale. Jess: Shared understanding. Paul: Being aware of the limitations of ideas you can hold in your head. With visualization, you can hold it in more easily and meaningfully. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDY: Welcome to Episode 271 of Greater Than Code. My name is Mandy Moore and I'm here today with a guest, but returning panelist. I'm happy to see Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Mandy. It's great to see you. I'm also excited to be here today with Damien Burke! DAMIEN: And I am excited to be here with both of you and our guest today, Paul Rayner. Paul Rayner is one of the leading practitioners of EventStorming and domain-driven design. He's the author of The EventStorming Handbook, co-author of Behavior-Driven Development with Cucumber, and the founder and chair of the Explore DDD conference. Welcome to the show, Paul. PAUL: Thanks, Damien. Great to be here. DAMIEN: Great to have you. And so you know, you are prepared, you are ready for our first and most famous question here on Greater Than Code? PAUL: I don't know if I'm ready, or prepared, but I can answer it, I think. [laughter] DAMIEN: I know you have prepared, so I don't know if you are prepared. PAUL: Right. DAMIEN: Either way, here it comes. [chuckles] What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? PAUL: Okay. So a couple of weeks ago, there's a lake near my house, and the neighbors organized a polar plunge. They cut a big hole in the ice and everyone lines up and you basically take turns jumping into the water and then swimming to the other side and climbing out the ladder. So my superpower is participating in a polar plunge and I acquired that by participating with my neighbors. There was barbecue, there was a hot tub, and stuff like that there, too. So it was very, very cool. It's maybe not a superpower, though because there were little kids doing this also. So it's not like it was only me doing it. JESSICA: I'll argue that your superpower is participating in scary things because you're also on this podcast today! PAUL: [chuckles] Yeah, there we go. DAMIEN: Yeah, that is very scary. Nobody had to be fished out of the water? No hospital, hypothermia, any of that? PAUL: No, there was none of that. It was actually a really good time. I mean, being in Denver, blue skies, it was actually quite a nice day to jump into frozen. MANDY: So Paul, you're here today to talk about EventStorming. I want to know what your definition of that is, what it is, and why it's a cool topic to be talking about on Greater Than Code. PAUL: Okay. Well, there's a few things there. So firstly, what is EventStorming? I've been consulting, working with teams for a long time, coaching them and a big part of what I try and do is to try and bridge the gap between what the engineers, the developers, the technical people are trying to build in terms of the software, and what the actual problem is they're trying to solve. EventStorming is a technique for just mapping out a process using sticky notes where you're trying to describe the story of what it is that you're building, how that fits into the business process, and use the sticky notes to layer in variety of information and do it in a collaborative kind of way. So it's really about trying to bridge that communication gap and uncover assumptions that people might have, expose complexity and risk through the process, and with the goal of the software that you write actually being something that solves the real problem that you're trying to solve. I think it's a good topic for Greater Than Code based on what I understand about the podcast, because it certainly impacts the code that you write, touches on that, and connects with the design. But it's really optimized for collaboration, it's optimized for people with different perspectives being able to work together and approach it as visualizing processes that people create, and then working together to be able to do that. So there's a lot of techniques out there that are very much optimized from a developer perspective—UML diagrams, flow charts, and things like that. But EventStorming really, it sacrifices some of that rigor to try and draw people in and provide a structured conversation. I think with the podcast where you're trying to move beyond just the code and dig into the people aspects of this a lot more, I think it really touches on that in a meaningful way. JESSICA: You mentioned that with a bunch of stickies, a bunch of different people, and their perspectives, EventStorming layers in different kinds of information. PAUL: Mm hm. JESSICA: Like what? PAUL: Yeah. So the way that usually approach it is, let's say, we're modeling, visualizing some kind of process like somebody registering for a certain thing, or even somebody, maybe a more common example, purchasing something online and let's say, that we have the development team that's responsible for implementing how somebody might return a product to a merchant, something like that. The way it would work is you describe that process as events where each sticky note represents something that happened in the story of returning a product and then you can layer on questions. So if people have questions, use a different colored sticky note for highlighting things that people might be unsure of, what assumptions they might be making, differences in terminology, exposing those types of unknowns and then once you've sort of laid out that timeline, you can then layer in things like key events, what you might call emergent structures. So as you look at that timeline, what might be some events that are more important than others? JESSICA: Can you make that concrete for me? Give me an example of some events in the return process and then…? PAUL: Yeah. So let's say, the customer receives a product that they want to return. You could have an event like customer receive product and then an event that is customer reported need for return. And then you would have a shift in actor, like a shift in the person doing the work where maybe the merchant has to then merchant sent return package to customer. So we're mapping out each one of these as an event in the process and then the customer receives, or maybe it's a shipping label. The customer receives the shipping label and then they put the items in the package with the shipping label and they return it. And then there would be a bunch of events that the merchant would have to take care of. So the merchant would have to receive that package and then probably have to update the system to record that it's been returned. And then, I imagine there would be processing another order, or something like that. A key event in there might be something like sending out the shipping label and the customer receiving the shipping label because that's a point where the responsibility transfers from the merchant, who is preparing the shipping label and dispatching that, to the customer that's actually receiving it and then having to do something. That's just one, I guess, small example of you can use that to divide that story up into what you might think of as chapters where there's different responsibilities and changes in the narrative. Part of that maybe layering in sticky notes that represent who's doing the work. Like who's the actor, whether it's the merchant, or the customer, and then layering in other information, like the systems that are involved in that such as maybe there's email as a system, maybe there's the actual e-commerce platform, a payment gateway, these kinds of things could be reflected and so on, like there's – [overtalk] JESSICA: Probably integration with the shipper. PAUL: Integration with the shipper, right. So potentially, if you're designing this, you would have some kind of event to go out to the shipper to then know to actually pick up the package and that type of thing. And then once the package is actually delivered back to the merchant, then there would be some kind of event letting the merchant know. It's very hard to describe because I'm trying to picture this in my mind, which is an inherently visual thing. It's probably not that interesting to hear me describing something that's usually done on some kind of either mirror board, like some kind of electronic space, or on a piece of butcher's paper, or – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Something with a lot of sticky notes. PAUL: Something with a lot of sticky notes, right. DAMIEN: Which, I believe for our American listeners, sticky notes are the little square pieces of brightly colored paper with self-adhesive strip on the back. PAUL: Yeah. The stickies. DAMIEN: Stickies. [chuckles] I have a question about this process. I've been involved in very similar processes and it sounds incredibly useful. But as you describe it, one of the concerns I have is how do you avoid getting over specific, or over described? Like you can describe systems until you're talking about the particles in the sun, how do you know when to stop? PAUL: So I think there's a couple of things. Number one is at the start of whatever kind of this activity, this EventStorming is laying out what's the goal? What are we trying to accomplish in terms of the process? With returns, for example, it would be maybe from this event to this event, we're trying to map out what that process looks like and you start with what you might call the happy path. What does it look like when everything goes well? And then you can use pink stickies to represent alternate paths, or things going wrong and capture those. If they're not tied back to this goal, then you can say, “Okay, I think we've got enough level of detail here.” The other thing is time boxing is saying, “Okay, well, we've only got half an hour, or we've only got an hour so let's see how much we can do in that time period,” and then at the end of that, if you still have a lot of questions, then you can – or you feel like, “Oh, we need to dig into some of these areas more.” Then you could schedule a follow up session to dig into that a little bit more. So it's a combination of the people that are participating in this deciding how much level of detail they want to go down to. What I find is it typically is something that as you're going through the activity, you start to see. “Oh, maybe this is too far down in the weeds versus this is the right level.” As a facilitator, I don't typically prescribe that ahead of time, because it's much easier to add sticky notes and then talk about them than it is to have a conversation when there's nothing visualized. I like to visualize it first and lay it out and then it's very easy to say, “Oh, well, this looks like too much detail. So we'll just put a placeholder for that and not worry about out it right now.” It's a little bit of the facilitation technique of having a parking lot where you can say, “Okay, this is a good topic, but maybe we don't need to get down in that right now. Maybe let's refocus back on what it is that we're trying to accomplish.” JESSICA: So there's some regulation that happens naturally during the meeting, during interactions and you can have that regulation in the context of the visual representation, which is the EventStorming, the long row of stickies from one event to the other. PAUL: Right, the timeline that you're building up. So it's a little bit in my mind, I watched last year, I think it was on Netflix. There was a documentary about Pixar and how they do their storyboarding process for their movies and it is exactly that. They storyboard out the movie and iterate over that again and again and again telling that story. What's powerful about that is it's a visual medium so you have someone that is sketching out the main beats of the story and then they're talking it through. Not to say that EventStorming is at that level of rigor, but it has that kind of feel to it of we're laying out these events to tell the story and then we're talking through the story and seeing what we've missed and where we need to add more detail, maybe where we've added too much detail. And then like you said, Jess, there's a certain amount of self-regulation in there in terms of, do we have enough time to go down into this? Is this important right now? JESSICA: And I imagine that when I have questions that go further into detail than we were able to go in the meeting, if I've been in that EventStorming session, I know who to ask. PAUL: That's the idea, yeah. So the pink stickies that we said represent questions, what I like about those is, well, several things. Number one, it democratizes the idea that it's okay to ask questions, which I think is a really powerful technique. I think there's a tendency in meetings for some people to hold back and other people to do all the talking. We've all experienced that. What this tries to do is to democratize that and actually make it not only okay and not only accepted, but encourage that you're expected to ask questions and you're expected to put these sticky notes on here when there's things that you don't understand. JESSICA: Putting the questions on a sticky note, along with the events, the actors, and the things that we do know go on sticky notes, the questions also go on sticky notes. All of these are contributions. PAUL: Exactly. They value contributions and what I love about that is that even people that are new to this process, it's a way for them to ask questions in a way that is kind of friendly to them. I've seen this work really well, for example, with onboarding new team members and also, it encourages the idea that we have different areas of expertise. So in any given process, or any business story, whatever you want to characterize it as, some people are going to know more about some parts of it than others. What typically happens is nobody knows the whole story, but when we work together, we can actually build up an approximation of that whole story and help each other fill in the gaps. So you may have the person that's more on the business, or the product side explaining some terminology. You can capture those explanations on sticky notes as a glossary that you're building up as you go. You can have engineers asking questions about the sequence of events in terms of well, does this one come before that one? And then the other thing that's nice about the questions is it actually as you're going, it's mapping out your ignorance and I see that as a positive thing. JESSICA: The known unknowns. PAUL: Known unknowns. It takes unknown unknowns, which the kind of elephant in the room, and at least gets them up as known unknowns that you can then have a conversation around. Because there's often this situation of a question that somebody's afraid to ask and maybe they're new to the team, or maybe they're just not comfortable asking that type of question. But it gives you actually a map of that ignorance so you can kind of see oh, there's this whole area here that just has a bunch of pink stickies. So that's probably not an area we're ready to work on and we should prioritize. Actually, if this is an area that we need to be working on soon, we should prioritize getting answers to these questions by maybe we need to do a proof of concept, or some UX work, or maybe some kind of prototyping around this area, or like you said, Jess, maybe the person that knows the answers to these questions is just not in this session right now and so, we need to follow up with them, get whatever answers we need, and then come back and revisit things. JESSICA: So you identify areas of risk. PAUL: Yes. Areas of risk, both from a product perspective and also from a technical perspective as well. DAMIEN: So what does it take to have one of these events, or to facilitate one of these events? How do you know when you're ready and you can do it? PAUL: So I've done EventStorming [chuckles] as a conference activity in a hallway with sticky notes and we say, “Okay, let's as a little bit of an icebreaker here –” I usually you do the story of Cinderella. “Let's pick the Disney story of Cinderella and we'll just EventStorm this out. Just everyone, here are some orange sticky notes and a Sharpie, just write down some things that you remember happening in that story,” and then everyone writes a few. We post it up on the hallway wall and then we sequence them as a timeline and then we can basically build up that story in about 5, or 10 minutes from scratch. With a business process, it's not that different. It's like, okay, we're going to do returns, or something like that and if people are already familiar with the technique, then just give them a minute, or so to think of some things that they know that would happen in that process. And then they do that individually and then we just post them up on the timeline and then sequence them as a group and it can happen really quickly. And then everything from there is refinement. Iteration and refinement over what you've put up as that initial skeleton. DAMIEN: Do you ever find that a team comes back a week, or a day, or a month later and goes, “Oh, there is this big gap in our narrative because nobody in this room understood the warehouse needed to be reordered in order to send this thing down”? PAUL: Oh, for sure. Sometimes it's big gaps. Sometimes it's a huge cluster of pink sticky notes that represents an area where there's just a lot of risk and unknowns that the team maybe hasn't thought about all that much. Like you said, it could be there's this third-party thing that it wasn't until everyone got in a room and kind of started to map it out, that they realized that there was this gap in their knowledge. JESSICA: Yeah. Although, you could completely miss it if there's nobody from the warehouse in the room and nobody has any idea that you need to tell the warehouse to expect this return. PAUL: Right and so, part of that is putting a little bit of thought into who would need to be part of this and in a certain way, playing devil's advocate in terms of what don't we know, what haven't we thought of. So it encourages that sense of curiosity with this and it's a little bit different from – Some of the listeners maybe have experienced user story mapping and other techniques like that. Those tend to be focused on understanding a process, but they're very much geared towards okay, how do we then figure out how we're going to code up this feature and how do we slice it up into stories and prioritize that. So it's similar in terms of sticky notes, but the emphasis in EventStorming is more on understanding together, the problem that we're trying to address from a business perspective. JESSICA: Knowledge pulling. PAUL: Yeah. Knowledge pulling, knowledge distillation, those types of idea years, and that kind of mindset. So not just jumping straight to code, but trying to get a little bit of a shared understanding of what all is the thing that we're trying to actually work on here. JESSICA: Eric Evans calls it knowledge crunching. PAUL: Yes, Eric called it knowledge crunching. DAMIEN: I love that phrase, that shared understanding. That's what we, as product teams, are generating is a shared understanding both, captured in our documentation, in our code, and before that, I guess on large sheets of butcher paper. [laughs] PAUL: Well, and it could be a quick exercise of okay, we're going to be working on some new feature and let's just spend 15 minutes just mapping it out to get a sense of, are we on the same page with this? JESSICA: Right, because sometimes it's not even about we think we need to know something, it's do we know enough? Let's find out. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: And is that knowledge shared among us? PAUL: Right, and maybe exposing, like it could be as simple as slightly different terminology, or slightly different understanding of terminology between people that can have a big impact in terms of that. I was teaching a workshop last night where we were talking about this, where somebody had written the event. So there was a repair process that a third-party repair company would handle and then the event that closed that process off, they called case closed. So then the question becomes well, what does case closed mean? Because the word case – [overtalk] JESSICA: [laughs] It's like what's the definition of done? PAUL: Right, exactly. [laughter] Because that word case didn't show up anywhere earlier in the process. So is this like a new concept? Because the thing that kicks off the process is repair purchase order created and at the end of the process, it's said case closed. So then the question becomes well, is case closed really, is that a new concept that we actually need to implement here? Or is this another way of saying that we are getting a copy of that repair purchase order back that and it's been updated with details about what the repair involved? Or maybe it's something like repair purchase order closed. So it's kind of forcing us to clarify terminology, which may seem a little bit pedantic, but that's what's going to end up in the code. If you can get some of those things exposed a little earlier before you actually jump to code and get people on the same page and surface any sort of differences in terminology and misunderstandings, I think that can be super helpful for everyone. JESSICA: Yeah. Some people say it's just semantics. Semantics' meaning, its only meaning, this is only about out what this step actually means because when you put it in the code, the code is crystal clear. It is going to do exactly what it does and whether that clarity matches the shared understanding that we think we have oh, that's the difference between a bug and a working system. DAMIEN: [laughs] That's beautiful. It's only meaning. [laughs] JESSICA: Right? Yeah. But this is what makes programming hard is that pedanticness. The computer is the ultimate pedant. DAMIEN: Pedant. You're going to be pedantic about it. [laughter] PAUL: I see what you did there. [laughter] DAMIEN: And that is the occupation, right? That is what we do is look at and create systems and then make them precise. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: In a way that actually well, is precise. [laughs] JESSICA: Right, and the power of our human language is that it's not precise, that it allows for ambiguity, and therefore, a much broader range of meaning. But as developers, it's our job to be precise. We have to be precise to the computers. It helps tremendously to be precise with each other. DAMIEN: Yeah, and I think that's actually the power of human cognition is that it's not precise. We are very, very fuzzy machines and anyone who tries to pretend otherwise will be greatly disappointed. Ask me how I know. [laughter] PAUL: Well, and I think what I'm trying to do with something like EventStorming is to embrace the fuzziness, is to say that that's actually an asset and we want to embrace that and expose that fuzziness, that messiness. Because the processes we have and work with are often inherently complex. We are trying to provide some visual representation of that so we can actually get our head around, or our minds around the language complexities, the meanings, and drive in a little bit to that meaning. JESSICA: So when the sticky notes pile on top of each other, that's a feature. PAUL: It is. Going back to that example I was just talking about, let's say, there's a bunch of, like we do the initial part of this for a minute, or so where people are creating sticky notes and let's say, we end up with four, or five sticky notes written by different people on top of each other that end up on the timeline that all say pretty much the same thing with slight variations. JESSICA: Let's say, case closed, request closed. PAUL: Case closed, repair purchase order closed, repair purchase order updated, repair purchase order sent. So from a meaning perspective, I look at that and I say, “That's gold in terms of information,” because that's showing us that there's a richness here. Firstly, that's a very memorable thing that's happening in the timeline – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh and it has multiple things. PAUL: That maybe means it's a key event. Right, and then what is the meaning? Are these the same things? Are they different things? Maybe we don't have enough time in that session to dig into that, but if we're going to implement something around that, or work with something around that, then we're going to at some point need some clarity around the language, the terminology, and what these concepts mean. Also, the sequence as well, because it might be that there's actually multiple events being expressed there that need to be teased apart. DAMIEN: You used this phrase a couple times, “key event,” and since you've used it a couple times, I think it might be key. [laughter] Can you tell us a little bit about what a key event is? What makes something a key event? PAUL: Yeah, the example I like to use is from the Cinderella story. So if you think about the story of Cinderella, one of the things, when people are doing that as an icebreaker, they always end up being multiple copies of the event that usually is something like shoe lost, or slipper lost, or glass slipper lost. There's something about that event that makes it memorable, firstly and then there's something about that event that makes it pivotal in the story. For those that are not familiar with the story [chuckles]—I am because I've EventStormed this thing maybe a hundred times—but there's this part. Another key event is the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic at the start and she actually describes a business policy. She says, “The magic is going to run out at midnight,” and like all business policies, it's vague [laughter] and it's unclear as to what it means because – [overtalk] JESSICA: The carriage disappears, the dress disappears, but not the slipper that fell off. PAUL: Exactly. There's this exception that for some bizarre reason, to move the plot forward, the slipper stays. But then the definition of midnight is very hazy because what she's actually describing, in software terms, is a long running process of the clock banging 12 times, which is what midnight means is the time between the first and the twelfth and during that time, the magic is slowly unraveling. JESSICA: So midnight is a duration, not an instant. PAUL: Exactly. Yes, it's a process, not an event. So coming back to the question that Damien asked about key events. That slipper being lost is a key event in that story, I think because it actually is a shift in narrative. Up until that point in the story, it's the story of Cinderella and then after that, once the slipper is lost, it becomes the story of the prince looking for Cinderella. And then at the end, you get the day tomorrow, the stuff that happens with that slipper at the end of the story. Another key event would be like the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic. DAMIEN: [chuckles] It seems like these are necessary events, right? If the slipper is not lost, if the fairy godmother doesn't do magic, you don't have the story of Cinderella. PAUL: Right. These are narrative turns, right? DAMIEN: Yeah. PAUL: These are points of the story shifts and so, key events can sometimes be a narrative shift where it's driving the story forward in a business process. Something like, let's say, you're working on an e-commerce system, like order submitted is a key event because you are adding items to a shopping cart and then at some point, you make a decision to submit the order and then at that point, it transitions from order being a draft thing that is in a state of flux to it actually becomes essentially immutable and gets passed over to fulfilment. So there's a shift in responsibility and actor between these two as well just like between Cinderella and the prince. JESSICA: A shift in who is driving the story forward. PAUL: Right. Yeah. So it's who is driving the story forward. So these key events often function as a shift in actor, a shift in who's driving the story forward, or who has responsibility. They also often indicate a handoff because of that from one group to another in an organization. Something like a sales process that terminates in contract signed. That key event is also the goal of the sales process. The goal is to get to contract signed and then once that happens, there's usually a transition to say, an onboarding group that actually onboards the new customer in the case of a sales process for a new customer, or in e-commerce, it would be the fulfillment part, the warehousing part that Jess was talking about earlier. That's actually responsible for the fulfillment piece, which is they take that order, they create a package, they put all the items in the package, create the shipping label, and ship it out to the customer. JESSICA: And in domain-driven design, you talked about the shift from order being a fluid thing that's changing as people add stuff to their cart to order being immutable. The word order has different meanings for the web site where you're buying stuff and the fulfillment system, there's a shift in that term. PAUL: Right, and that often happens around a key event, or a pivotal event is that there's a shift from one, you might think of it as context, or language over to another. So preorder submission, it's functioning as a draft order, but what it's actually typically called is a shopping cart and a shopping cart is not the same as an order. It's a great metaphor because there is no physical cart, but we all know what that means as a metaphor. A shopping cart is a completely different metaphor from an order, but we're able to understand that thread of continuity between I have this interactive process of taking items, or products, putting them in the shopping cart, or out again. And then at some point that shopping cart, which is functioning as a draft order, actually it becomes an order that has been submitted and then it gets – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Yeah, the metaphor doesn't really work until that transition. You have a shopping cart and then you click purchase and now what? [laughs] You're not going to the register and ringing it up, that doesn't make any sense. [chuckles] The metaphor kind of has to end there. JESSICA: You're not leaving the cart in the corral in the parking lot. [laughter] PAUL: Well, I think what they're trying to do is when you think about going through the purchase process at a store, you take your items up in the shopping cart and then at that point, you transition into a financial transaction that has to occur that then if you were at a big box electronic store, or something, eventually, you would make the payment. You would submit payment. That would be the key events and that payment is accepted and then you receive a receipt, which is kind of the in-person version of a record of your order that you've made because you have to bring the receipt back. DAMIEN: It sort of works if the thing you're putting in the shopping cart are those little cards. When they don't want to put things on the shelf, they have a card, you pick it up, and you take it to register. They ring it up, they give you a receipt, and hopefully, the thing shows up in the mail someday, or someone goes to the warehouse and goes gets it. PAUL: We've all done that. [chuckles] Sometimes it shows up. Sometimes it doesn't. JESSICA: That's an interesting point that at key events, there can be a shift in metaphor. PAUL: Yes. Often, there is. So for example, I mentioned earlier, a sales process ending in a contract and then once the contract is signed, the team – let's say, you're signing on a new customer, for a SaaS service, or something like that. Once they've signed the contract, the conversation isn't really about the contract anymore. It's about what do we need to do to onboard this customer. Up until that point, the emphasis is maybe on payment, legal disclosures, and things like that. But then the focus shifts after the contract is signed to more of an operational focus of how do we get the data in, how do we set up their accounts correctly, that type of thing. JESSICA: The contract is an input to that process. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Whereas, it was the output, the big goal of the sales process. PAUL: Yes, exactly. So these key events also function from a systems perspective, when you think about moving this to code that event then becomes almost like a message potentially. Could be implemented as say, a message that's being passed from the sales system through to the onboarding system, or something like that. So it functions as the integration point between those two, where the language has to be translated from one context to another. JESSICA: And it's an integration point we can define carefully so that makes it a strong boundary and a good place to divide the system. DAMIEN: Nice. PAUL: Right. So that's where it starts to connect to some of the things that people really care about these days in terms of system decomposition and things like that. Because you can start thinking about based on a process view of this, based on a behavior view of this, if we treat these key events as potential emergent boundaries in a process, like we've been describing, that we discover through mapping out the process, then that can give us some clues as to hmm maybe these boundaries don't exist in the system right now, but they could. These could be places where we start to tease things apart. JESSICA: Right. Where you start breaking out separate services and then when you get down to the user story level, the user stories expect a consistent language within themselves. You're not going to go from cart to return purchase in a case. PAUL: [laughs] Right. JESSICA: In a single user story. User stories are smaller scope and work within a single language. PAUL: Right and so, I think the connection there in my mind is user stories have to be written in some kind of language, within some language context and mapping out the process can help you understand where you are in that context and then also understand, like if you think about a process that maybe has a sales part of the process and then an onboarding part, it'll often be the case that there's different development teams that are focusing on different parts of that process. So it provides a way of them seeing what their integration point is and what might need to happen across that integration point. If they were to either integrate to different systems, or if they're trying to tease apart an existing system. To use Michael Feathers' term, what might be a “scene” that we could put in here that would allow us to start teasing these things apart. And doing it with the knowledge of the product people that are part of the visualization, too is that this isn't something typically that engineers do exclusively from a technical perspective. The idea with EventStorming is you are also bringing in other perspectives like product, business, stakeholders, and anyone that might have more of that business perspective in terms of what the goals of the process are and what the steps are in the process. MID-ROLL: And now a quick word from our sponsor. I hear people say the VPNs have a reputation for slowing down your internet speed, but not with NordVPN, because it's the fastest VPN in the world. I don't have to sacrifice internet speed for better security. With NordVPN, my internet traffic is routed through a secure encrypted tunnel, which protects my data and privacy. I can also have it on up to six devices like my laptop, phone, TV, iPad—all my devices are protected. Grab your exclusive NordVPN deal by going to nordvpn.com/gtc, or use the code GTC to get a huge discount on your NordVPN plan plus one additional month for free. Plus, a bonus gift! It's completely risk-free with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. JESSICA: As a developer, it's so important to understand what those goals are, because that lets us make good decisions when we're down in the weeds and getting super precise. PAUL: Right, I think so. I think often, I see teams that are implementing stories, but not really understanding the why behind that in terms of maybe they get here's the functionality on delivering and how that fits into the system. But like I talked about before, when you're driving a process towards a key event, that becomes the goal of that subprocess. So the question then becomes how does the functionality that I'm going to implement that's described in this user story actually move people towards that goal and maybe there's a better way of implementing it to actually get them there. DAMIEN: Yeah, it's always important to keep that in mind, because there's always going to be ambiguity until you have a running system, or ran system, honestly. JESSICA: Yeah! DAMIEN: There's always going to be ambiguity, which it is our job as people writing code to manage and we need to know. Nobody's going to tell us exactly what's going to happen because that's our job. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: It's like if the developer had a user story that Cinderella's slipper fell off, but they do didn't realize that the goal of that was that the prince picked it up, then they might be like, “Oh, slipper broke. That's fine.” PAUL: Yeah. JESSICA: It's off the foot. Check the box. PAUL: Let's create a glass slipper factory implementer object [laughter] so that we can just create more of those. JESSICA: Oh, yeah. What, you wanted a method slip off in one piece? You didn't say that. I've created crush! PAUL: Right. [laughter] Yeah. So I think sometimes there's this potential to get lost in the weeds of the everyday development work that is happening and I like to tie it back to what is the actual story that we're supporting. And then sometimes what people think of as exception cases, like an example might be going back to that merchant return example is what if they issue the shipper label, but the buyer never receives it. We may say, “Well, that's never going to happen,” or “That's unlikely.” But visualizing that case, you may say, “That's actually a strong possibility. How do we handle that case and bake that into the design so that it actually reflects what we're trying to do?” JESSICA: And then you make an event that just triggers two weeks later that says, “Check whether customer received label.” PAUL: Yes, exactly. One thing you can do as well is like – so that's one possibility of solving it. The idea what EventStorming can let you do is say, “Well, that's one way of doing it. Are there any other options in terms of how we could handle this, let's visualize.” With any exception case, or something, you could say, “Well, let's try solving this a few different ways. Just quickly come up with some different ideas and then we can pull the best of those ideas into that.” So the idea when you're modeling is to say, “Okay, well, there's probably more than one way to address this. So maybe let's get a few ideas on the table and then pick the best out of these.” JESSICA: Or address it at multiple levels. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: A fallback for the entire process is customer contact support again. PAUL: Right, and that may be the simple answer in that kind of case. What we're trying to do, though is to visualize that case as an option and then talk about it, have a structured conversation around it, say, “Well, how would we handle that?” Which I think from a product management perspective is a key thing to do is to engage the engineers in saying, “Well, what are some different ways that we could handle this and solve this?” If you have people that are doing responsibility primarily for testing in that, then having them weigh in on, well, how would we test this? What kind of test cases might we need to handle for this? So it's getting – [overtalk] JESSICA: How will we know it worked? PAUL: Different perspectives and opinions on the table earlier rather than later. JESSICA: And it's cheap. It's cheap, people. It's a couple hours and a lot of post-its. You can even buy the generic post-its. We went to Office Depot yesterday, it's $10 for 5 little Post-it pads, [laughter] or 25 Office Depot brand post-it pads. They don't have to stay on the wall very long; the cheap ones will work. PAUL: [laughs] So those all work and then it depends if you have shares in 3M, I guess, with you. [laughter] Or Office Depot, depending which road you want to go down. [laughter] JESSICA: Or if you really care about that shade of pale purple, which I do. PAUL: Right. I mean, what's been fascinating to me is in the last 2 years with switching to remote work and that is so much of, 95% of the EventStorming I do these days is on a collaborative whiteboard tool like Miro, or MURAL, which I don't know why those two product names are almost exactly the same. But then it's even cheaper because you can sign up for a free account, invite a few people, and then just start adding sticky notes to some virtual whiteboard and do it from home. There's a bunch of things that you can do on tool like that with copy pasting, moving groups of sticky notes around, rearranging things, and ordering things much – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you never run out of wall. PAUL: Yeah. The idea with the butcher's paper in a physical workshop, in-person workshop is you're trying to create a sense of unending modeling space that you can use. That you get for free when you use online collaborative whiteboarding tool. It's just there out of – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you can zoom in. PAUL: And you zoom in and out. Yeah. There's a – [overtalk] JESSICA: Stickies on your stickies on your stickies. [laughter] I'm not necessarily recommending that, but you can do it. PAUL: Right. The group I was working with last night, they'd actually gone to town using Miro emojis. They had something bad happen in the project and they've got the horror emoji [laughter] and then they've got all kinds of and then copy pasting images off the internet for things. JESSICA: Nice. PAUL: So yeah, can make it even more fun. JESSICA: Okay. So it's less physical, but in a lot of ways it can be more expressive, PAUL: I think so. More expressive and just as engaging and it can break down the geographical barriers. I've done sessions where we've had people simultaneously spread in multiple occasions across the US and Europe in the same session, all participating in real-time. If you're doing it remote, I like to keep it short. So maybe we do like a 2-hour session with a 10- or 15-minute break in the middle, because you're trying to manage people's energy and keep them focused and it's hard to do that when you just keep going. MANDY: I kind of want to talk a little bit about facilitation and how you facilitate these kind of workshops and what you do, engage people and keep them interested. PAUL: Yeah. So I think that it depends a little bit on the level of detail we're working at. If it's at the level of a few team members trying to figure out a feature, then it can be very informal. Not a lot of facilitation required. Let's just write down what the goal is and then go through the process of brainstorming a few stickies, laying it out, and then sequencing it as a timeline, adding questions. It doesn't require a lot of facilitation hand. I think the key thing is just making sure that people are writing down their questions and that it's time boxed. So quitting while people are still interested and then [laughter] at the end, before you finish, having a little bit of a conversation around what might the next steps be. Like what did we learn? You could do a couple of minutes retrospective, add a sticky note for something you learned in this session, and then what do you see as our next steps and then move on from there with whatever action items come out of that. So that one doesn't require, I think a lot of facilitation and people can get up and running with that pretty quickly. I also facilitate workshops that are a lot more involved where it's at the other end of the spectrum, where it's a big picture workshop where we're mapping out maybe an entire value stream for an organization. We may have a dozen, 20 people involved in a session like that representing different departments, different organizational silos and in that case, it requires a lot more planning, a lot more thinking through what the goal of the workshop is, who would you need to invite? Because there's a lot more detail involved and a lot more people involved, that could be four, or five multi-hour sessions spread over multiple days to be able to map out an entire value stream from soup to nuts. And then usually the goal of something like that is some kind of system modernization effort, or maybe spinning up a new project, or decomposing a legacy system, or even understanding what a legacy system does, or process improvement that will result inevitably in some software development in certain places. I did a workshop like that, I think last August and out of that, we identified a major bottleneck in the process that everyone in the workshop, I think it was just a bunch of pink stickies in one area that it got called the hot mess. [laughter] It was one area and what was happening was there were several major business concerns that were all coupled together in this system. They actually ended up spinning up a development team to focus on teasing apart the hot mess to figure out how do we decompose that down? JESSICA: Yes. PAUL: As far as I know, that effort was still ongoing as of December. I'm assuming that's still running because it was prioritized as we need to be able to decompose this part of this system to be able to grow and scale to where we want to get to. JESSICA: Yeah. That's a major business risk that they've got. They at least got clarity about where it is. PAUL: Right. Yeah, and what we did from there is I coached the developers through that process over several months. So we actually EventStormed it out at a much lower level. Once we figured out what the hot mess was, let's map it out and then they combined that with some flow charting and a bunch of other more engineering, kind of oriented visualization techniques, state machines, things like that to try and get a handle on what was going on. DAMIEN: We'll get UML in there eventually, right? PAUL: Eventually. [laughter] You can't do software development without some kind of state machine, sequence diagram. JESSICA: And it's approximating UML. You can't do it. You can't do it. [laughter] You will either use it, or you will derive a pigeon form of it. PAUL: Right. Well, I still use it for state diagrams and sequence diagrams when I'm down at that technical level. What I find is that there's a certain level of rigor that UML requires for a sequence diagram, or something like that that seems to get in the way of collaboration. So EventStorming sacrifices some of that rigor to be able to draw in everyone and have a low bar of entry to having people participate. DAMIEN: That's a huge insight. Why do you think that is? Is it the inability to hold that much information at a high level of rigor, or just people not used to working at that sort of precision and rigor? PAUL: I think that when I'm working with people that are not hands-on coders, they are in the everyday, like say, product managers, or stakeholders, to use those terms. They're in the everyday details of how the business process works and they tend to think of that process more as a series of steps that they're going through in a very specific kind of way. Like, I'm shipping a certain product, or supporting the shipping. or returning of certain types of products, those kinds of things. Whereas, as developers, we tend to think of it more in terms of the abstractions of the system and what we're trying to implement in the code. So the idea of being able to tell the story of a process in terms of the events that happen is a very natural thing, I find for people from a business perspective to do because that's how they tend to think about it. Whereas, I think as programmers, we're often taught not so much to think about behavior as a sequence of things happening, but more as the structure we've been taught to design in terms of structures and relationships rather than flow. JESSICA: Yet that's changing with event sourcing. PAUL: I think so. EventStorming and event sourcing become a very natural complement for each other and even event-driven architecture, or any event-driven messaging, whatever it happens to be. The gap between modeling using EventStorming and then designing some kind of event-driven distributed system, or even not distributed, but still event-driven is much more natural than trying to do something like an entity relationship diagram and they'd get from that to some kind of meaningful understanding of what's the story of how these functions and features are going to work. JESSICA: On the topic of sacrificing rigor for collaboration, I think you have to sacrifice rigor to work across content texts because you will find contradictions between them. The language does have different meaning before and after the order is submitted and you have to allow for that in the collaboration. It's not that you're not going to have the rigor. It's more that you're postponing it, you're scoping it as separately. This meeting is about the higher level and you need completeness over consistency. DAMIEN: Yeah. I feel like almost you have to sacrifice rigor to be effective in most roles and in that way, sacrifice is even the wrong word. Most of the things that we do as human beings do not allow for the sort of rigor of the things that we do as software engineers and things that computers do. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: And it's just, the world doesn't work that way. PAUL: Right. Well, and it's the focus in EventStorming on exploration, discovery, and urgent ideas versus rigor is more about not so much exploring and discovery, but about converging on certain things. So when someone says pedant and the other person says pedant, or vice versa, that tends to shut down the conversation because now you are trying to converge on some agreed upon term versus saying, “Well, let's explore a bunch of different ways this could be expressed and temporarily defer trying converge on.” JESSICA: Later in Slack, we'll vote. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Okay. So standardize later. PAUL: Yes. Standardize, converge later, and for now, let's kind of hold that at arm's length so that we can uncover and discover different perspectives on this in terms of how the story works and then add regulator when we go to code and then you may discover things in code where there are implicit concepts that you then need to take back to the modeling to try and figure out well, how do we express this? Coming up with some kind of term in the code and being able to go from there. JESSICA: Right. Some sort of potential return because it hasn't happened yet. PAUL: Exactly. So maybe it's a potential, maybe it's some other kind of potential return, like pending return, maybe we don't call it a return at all. JESSICA: Or disliked item because we could – or unsatisfactory item because we could intercept that and try to like, “Hey, how about we send you the screws that we're missing?” PAUL: Right. Yeah, maybe the answer is not a return at all. JESSICA: Yeah. PAUL: But maybe the case is that the customer says they want to return it, but you actually find a way to get them to buy more stuff by sending them something else that they would be happy with. So the idea is we're trying to promote discovery thinking when we are talking about how to understand certain problems and how to solve them rather than closing off options too soon. MANDY: So, Paul, I know you do give these workshops. Is there anything? Where can people find you? How can people learn more? How can people hire you to facilitate a workshop and get in touch with you? PAUL: Okay. Well, in terms of resources, Damien had mentioned at the beginning, I have an eBook up on Leanpub, The EventStorming Handbook, so if people are interested in learning more, they can get that. And then I do workshop facilitation and training through my company, Virtual Genius. They can go to virtualgenius.com and look at what training is available. It's all online these days, so they can participate from anywhere. We have some public workshops coming up in the coming months. And then they can find me, I'm @ThePaulRayner on Twitter, just to differentiate me from all the indefinite articles that are out there. [laughter] MANDY: Sounds good. Well, let's head into reflections. I can start. I just was thinking while we were talking about this episode, about how closely this ties into my background in professional writing, technical writing to be exact, and just how you have this process to lay out exactly what steps need to be taken and to differentiate when people say the same things and thinking about, “Well, they're saying the same things, but the words matter,” and to get pedantic, that can be a good thing, especially when you are writing technical documents and how-tos. I remember still, my first job being a technical writer and looking at people in a machine shop who it was like, first, you do this, then you do this, then you do this and to me, I was like, “This is so boring.” But it makes sense and it matters. So this has been a really good way for me to think about it as a newbie just likening it to technical writing. JESSICA: Yeah. Technical writing has to tell that story. DAMIEN: I'm going to be reflecting on this has been such a great conversation and I feel like I have a lot of familiarity with at least a very similar process. I brought up all my fears that come from them, which is like, what if we don't have the right person in the room? What if there's something we didn't discover? And you said something about how you can do this in 5 minutes and how you can do this in 15 minutes and I realized, “Oh, this process doesn't have to be the 6-hour things that I've participated in and facilitated in. It can also be done more smaller and more iteratively and I can bring this sort of same process and thought process into more of the daily work.” So that's super helpful for me. JESSICA: I want to reflect on a phrase that Paul said and then Damien emphasized, which is shared understanding. It's what we're trying to get to in EventStorming across teams and across functions. I think it's also like what we're constantly trying to get to as humans. We value shared understanding so much because we're trapped in our heads and my experience in my head is never going to be the same as your experience in your head. But at some point, we share the same physical world. So if we can get that visual representation, if we can be talking together about something in that visual world, we can pass ideas back and forth more meaningfully. We can achieve this shared understanding. We can build something together. And that feels so good. I think that that constant building of shared understanding is a lot of what it means to be human and I get really excited when I get to do that at work. PAUL: I think I would just add to that as well is being human, I'm very much aware of limitations in terms of how many ideas I can hold in my head at any one time. I know the times where I've been in the experience that many describe where someone's giving me a list of steps to follow and things like that, inevitably I'm like, “Well, I remember like the first two, maybe three,” and then everything after that is kind of Charlie Brown. What, what, why? [laughter] I don't remember anything they said from that point on. But when I can visualize something, then I can take it in one go. I can see it and we're building it together. So for me, it's a little bit of a mind hack in terms of getting over the limitations of how many things I can keep in my mind at one time. Also, like you said, Jess, getting those things out of my mind and out of other people's minds into a shared space where we can actually collaborate on them together, I think that's really important to be able to do that in a meaningful way. MANDY: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Paul. We really enjoyed this discussion. And if you, as listeners, would like to continue this conversation, please head over to Patreon.com/greaterthancode. We have a Slack channel. You can pledge and donate to sponsor us as little as a dollar and you can come in, hang out, talk with us about these episodes. If not, give me a DM on Twitter and let me know, and I'll let you in anyway because [laughter] that's what we do here at Greater Than Code. PAUL: Because Mandy's awesome. MANDY: [laughs] Thank you, Paul. With that, thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you again next week. Special Guest: Paul Rayner.

In today's episode, host Lindsay Pinchuk is joined in conversation with Jessica Mindell, Founder of Jessica's Natural Foods, to discuss her journey as an entrepreneur and how persistence has been the key to her success. When Jessica first started experimenting with gluten-free granola, she was looking for alternatives for her husband. After realizing that she had developed a unique product, Jessica began to market her product to the local community, and it was an instant hit. After 12 years of business, Jessica's brand is on the shelves of your favorite grocery stores, including nationally at Whole Foods, Wegmans, and many more. While she has been given opportunities to become a larger brand, Jessica has chosen to stay a small business, provide high-quality products, and support her family. Throughout her journey, Jessica has learned that the best thing any entrepreneur can do is to stay true to themselves. Tune into this week's episode of Dear FoundHer… for a conversation about being a small business owner. Learn more about the importance of persistence, quality, and knowing who you are so you can create a brand that successfully represents you. Quotes • “I just kept making hundreds and hundreds of batches and kept collecting feedback.” (13:13-13:17 | Jessica) • “I did it on my own and grew one step at a time. And I'm grateful because I don't have anybody telling me what I have to do. I don't have to cut quality, I create the highest quality product of handmade batches, and I'm able to do that because it's my product.” (18:16-18:34 | Jessica) • “You can't argue with quality and taste. It is a nonnegotiable” (22:49-22:55 | Lindsay) • “The truth is, I love having a small business. I love being able to have the flexibility that I can have a family, work, and be home with the kids when I need to. So as much as I love the idea of being some huge company, at the same time I love being a small company and being able to make decisions myself.” (24:37-25:00 | Jessica) • “Listen to yourself and what it is that you want and what is right for your business. You can have a great brand and a great product that is very successful and provides for your family without running yourself into the ground.” (27:25-27:38 | Lindsay) • “The more people you can talk to and learn from their experiences will be so helpful in your journey.” (33:10-33:17 | Jessica) Connect with Jessica Mindell: Instagram | http://www.instagram.com/jessicasnaturalfoods/ where you can currently win a $100 gift card to Whole Foods PLUS some amazing products from Jessica! Find a store near you | http://www.jessicasnaturalfoods.com Check out the Dear FoundHer... Valentine's Day Gift Guide https://www.lindsaypinchuk.com/valentines-day-gift-guide Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe. Want even more resources for growing your business? Join the Dear FoundHer Facebook Community for more discussion with other female founders, business owners, and entrepreneurs: https://www.facebook.com/groups/dearfoundher Subscribe to Dear FoundHer on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! For more from Lindsay Pinchuk: • Visit her website to grab one of her FREE quick guides: https://www.lindsaypinchuk.com/ • Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lindsaypinchuk/ Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Jessica Lorion is the host and producer of the Mamas in Training podcast. She supports pregnant women and aspiring moms on their journey into motherhood. What makes her show different from other pregnancy and motherhood podcasts is that she is NOT yet a mom. An autoimmune disease has delayed her journey into motherhood, so she has decided to learn right alongside her audience. With a background in performing on stage — acting and singing — her mission is to spread the importance of studying motherhood. She intends to use her voice and desire to connect with women everywhere, to share the lessons she has learned and give community to those in need. Learn more about Jessica. Learn more about The Passionistas Project.   Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking with Jessica Lorion, the host and producer of the Mamas and Training podcast. She supports pregnant women and aspiring moms on their journey into motherhood. And what makes her show so different from other pregnancy and motherhood podcasts is that she is not yet a mother. She has an auto-immune disease has delayed her journey into motherhood, and she's decided to learn right alongside her audience. With a background in performing on stage in front of camera, as well as being a professional singer, her mission is to spread the importance of studying motherhood. She intends to use her voice and desire to connect with women everywhere, to learn the lessons that she's learned and give community to those in need. So please welcome to the show, Jessica Lorion. Jessica: It's so nice to be here. I, I really, really appreciate it. It's wonderful to sit down with. Thank you both. Passionistas: It's really great to have you here. So what's the one thing that you're most passionate about? Jessica: You know, it's interesting because as you were reading the intro, I was thinking about it and. First of all, I love what you do. I think it's really important for women to be reminded of their passions and to be reminded that there's more to us than whether it's a job or motherhood or whatever the million roles are that we usually carry. Um, so I think that's so important, important what you're doing, but I also find it interesting how passions can shift and adjust and take more priority than others at different times of your life. And so growing up and throughout college, high school, beyond college, professionally here and living in New York city, my main passion has always been performing, um, acting, singing, dancing, performing in any capacity, really. And that's what I went to school for. That's what I did professionally. Um, and then, you know,  I still have that passion and that's never going to stop, and it's going to be something that I'll be giving more energy to. Coming up soon, but COVID sorta hit. And I had had dabbled in this podcast and then when COVID hit and I, all the performing opportunities went away and online and voice was so prevalent. I was like, well, this is a perfect opportunity to dive fully into this other hobby that I had, because it was truly just a hobby. And then as I was putting more energy and effort into it, and I was realizing that. Why behind what I was doing. I was like feeling this passion kind of bubble up and grow, literally develop. And so it's interesting because now I guess I would say my, my second to acting one of my biggest passions is definitely this podcast and more than the podcast. Cause it's not. Of course, I'd love to have more downloads and I'd love to, you know, do all this stuff monetization wise, but the real root of the podcast and the mission and what I'm doing is the fact that I'm able to connect to these women. I'm able to reach out and have real relationships. Through meetings that we meet every month and online, social media, everything, but these women that sometimes have no support and no, no community, no even family. Um, and so that's been the biggest passion through it all. Passionistas: We'll dive into that more in a little bit, but let's start with, when you first had that spark for performing where were you a kid?. And what was your childhood like and performing, growing up? Jessica: Oh yeah. I, um, I was surrounded. By performing my entire life. Um, growing up, my mom was a choir director and she ended up taking over the department there. So she was the head of the music department and the choir director. She also taught, um, sorry, that was at a, um, high school. And then she ended up being the department chair for basically the entire town. So all elementary, middle, junior, and high school. She also worked at a college. She also performed herself in musicals and she did the musical. She was also, um, creator of a show choir. If you've ever heard of show choir. And my father, he was also, um, growing up, he played the trumpet. He was a singer. They both sang at churches and my parents were divorced. And so it was kind of like, During the week I would live with my mom and on the weekends, I would go with my dad. And so on the week I would, you know, be totally at my mom's school. When I was growing up, I was sitting in those rehearsals and watching her do what she was doing and seeing the kids and growing up with the kids, doing it. And then on the weekends, I would go with my dad and we would go to church and I would be sitting in the, um, in the, uh, little pews there waiting for him and watching him, seeing. Two three masses sometimes. And he was always exposing me to music and all these other things. And so it was really from as early as I can remember. I think the passion developed. I remember when I was in middle school, I went to a summer arts program. It's called smarts. I actually think it still exists if anyone lives in Massachusetts. Um, And it's a wonderful program where for the summer, for a few months, you choose a major and a minor. And so I majored in dance because I grew up dancing probably was the first thing I did. I never really acted as a little kid and singing came later, but I chose a major, so that was dance. And then my minor was musical theater. And so I'll never forget, we did this little song thing from. Uh, little mermaid and I sang this little solo from Ariel and afterward. I don't know what it was, but my mom came up to me and, you know, granted she's my mom, but she was also a professional. Like she knew what she was doing. She came up to me and she was like, Jessica, that was fabulous. And she just started praising me for how wonderful it was and not just my singing, but my acting of it. And I I'll never forget that moment because that was always the moment that kind of really, I was like, really, I mean, I had a lot of fun, but if that's really as good as how it felt then. Cool. So I think that was really, I can say the initial spark of it all after that. Passionistas: Did you go on to study, uh, theater and perform? Jessica: Yeah. So that was kind of the initial bug. And then my mom put me in some of her, uh, two of her high school productions. So I was, I didn't go to her high school, but when I was in middle school, she's like, oh, let me just put you in the course. And so that was super fun. And then of course at that time, when I was in middle school, I was hanging out with the high school kids. So I just also thought that that was super cool. And then when I went to high school, I pretty much started doing. All the time I was in, you know, in the musicals and the drama club and everything. Um, and I would do summer shows. There was this wonderful summer program, um, in my town. And so I would do shows there and then it was really in high school. I was like this, I think this is, you know, I can't imagine doing anything else. And so I decided to go to school for it. So I went to school and got a BFA in musical theater. Um, went to school in Virginia. Um, and you know, it's funny, I'll another moment also kind of never forget is when we were looking for schools, we went to Ithaca and we came across the head of the music department, musical theater department. And she looked at me and she said, if you can picture yourself doing anything else, but theater don't do theater. And I was petrified at the time, but you know, rightfully so that was wonderful advice because you do need to have this level of. You know, blinders on and just be so focused because you get a lot of nos and you get a lot of rejection and you don't have control over a lot of things. And so it was great advice, but also terrible advice at the same time. Um, but it, it didn't scare me off. I said, well, no, I can't imagine myself truly doing anything else. And so I went to school for it and then graduated and moved to the city right away. And what was that experience like as a young actor? Getting to New York and starting your career. It was crazy. My mom always likes to tell the story. I don't know now being 35 and looking back, I don't know if I was an idiot or not, but she and my stepfather offered me as a graduation gift, a trip to Italy. She's like, we've been saving up some money and we'd love to take you to Italy. And I was like, Hmm. You know what? I think I just want to move to New York city. Stupid stupid, stupid. But, um, yeah, so I, uh, I ended up moving right away. I literally stayed at a family friend's place for two weeks. I had no job. I had no place to live. Really just figured I would I'd I'd fix, I'd figure it out. And if anyone is listening, who knows the musical 42nd Street, it was truly like Peggy Sawyer. My mom took me to the bus station. I had my one suitcase in my, you know, a couple bags and she just waved goodbye to me on the bus. And she left sobbing and I got off the bus at 42nd street and I made my way to grand central and I was staying right. Um, the family friend was like right over tutor city, like 41st in first. And I just, I walked into that apartment. I'll never forget that feeling. And I was like, wow. All right, I'm here. Let's do it. I don't know what to do next, but, and my dad ended up coming down a week later and walking me around the city to help me find a job. I found a job a week later and just, yeah, started hitting the ground running, but it was a truly, when I moved to the city, I really didn't know anybody. There were a couple people from college who had moved up, um, But I, I mean, it's not like a lot of kids graduate from musical theater and move up and have a big community, you know, and I really didn't have that. So it was, it was crazy. It was scary. It was exciting. It was overwhelming. And now I always think back in high school, we would take these weekend trips to, to New York. And I would, I remember standing in Times Square and always being like, I'm gonna live here at one day. And so I often have to remind myself of that because you know, the city can be. And it's, it's the love, hate relationship with it. Um, but it's where I've always wanted to be. And so that was a passion of mine tooth that I fulfilled, which is really cool. Passionistas: How do you get through the challenging times, especially with COVID and everything. How do you take that rejection and how do you deal with the challenges of being an actress? Jessica: You know, it's an interesting question. I think if you had asked me 10 years ago, um, I'd have a completely different answer, but. I think now, honestly, it's having another passion project and it's having something else that lights you up. I think it's necessary. And I think anybody who is looking into going into any career that has to especially has to do with performing, but as any aspect of artistry behind it, you have to have something else that lights you up. Something else that, um, You know, Phil's you something else that drives you and I, and I, at the time, when I say, you know, if you had asked me 10 years ago, I was so narrow focused and yes, that's what you need, but you also need to be a full person. And I think that took me a long time to really understand that. And, and that comes with many things. You know what I mean? Like, even if you're working a corporate job, you need to have something else that lights you up because. It bleeds into everything else that you do. And so I found, you know, when I started having these other passions and having these other hobbies, even before it was a passion, a. I think to talk about, you know, you walk into these audition rooms and people are like, you know, they might ask you questions or you might meet with an agent or a casting director, and they're asking you things. And when they say like, so tell me, tell us a little bit about yourself. They don't want to hear it. Well, I'm an actor. I love to dance. I love to sing. Like they know that. So they want to hear like, oh, I have a podcast and it's for moms. And it's really cool. And I did this the other day with that. And. Yeah, that's the stuff that makes you a person and that what makes you interesting to work with? So my advice to someone who's starting off in that career would definitely be to get yourself another hobby, whether it's fitness, whether it's crafting, whether it's podcast, whatever it is. Um, and that definitely helped helped me. Passionistas: So tell us a little bit about your own career. Like what have been some of your favorite parts that you've had? Jessica: My absolute favorite, favorite role was I got an opportunity twice actually to play Mary Poppins, um, and goodness gracious. That was like both times. It was just a dream. The very first time was just so magical because it was the first time doing it. Um, but there was something about that role. It, I love children, which is why I started a podcast about babies and children. Um, and so it fit for me. And I just, it, it felt like a glove, you know, there are certain things that you do in life that just like, yup. That's that's right. That works. That feels right. And, um, I had an unbelievable cast. I had an unbelievable Bert. He's just Kyles and he's just amazing. And he's working in Disney now. Um, But it was, it was like no other, I mean, there's truly no words to describe it from top to bottom, everything just fit. Um, I'll tell this one really quick story connected to that show. Um, I was in the audition room actually. I had sang a couple of times and was asked to do the dance audition was in a dance callback. So if you go to a professional audition, you're, you're in the room with a ton of girls and they usually call four or five. Whether it's girls and guys, or just girls up together. And they do the dance with everybody else in the room, kind of on the side. And they just cycle through and cycle through and cycle through. And we had done, it was a tap combination. And so this one group had gone up there and as they were about to go, this one girl started freaking out. She's like, oh my gosh. And her tap shoe broke. And she was like, oh my tap. Ran over to her. And I said, what size shoe are you? And she said eight and a half. And I said, me too. And so I just took my shoe off and gave it to her. And that little moment, literally. Was the biggest talk of the story from that director. And of course, like I did a good job in the role and I was talented, but honestly I think just that random act of kindness booked. Because not only did he comment on it three times that day, but he proceeded to talk about it when I came back in for callbacks. And then when I eventually got the job and we were at, um, so before we, when you worked with this one director, he's a fabulous mark Robin, before you work with him. Um, I mean, when you work with. The day before you go into your tech week. So when you start adding all of the lighting and the set design and all those implements you, he always has a talk and he it's like the tech talk. And it's basically to hype you up for what's to come because the tech week can be kind of challenging, but he delivers this unbelievable inspirational. Uh, motivational speech, but in the conversation, he decided to call out and retell the entire shoe tap shoe story. And basically it was wonderful what he said, because he was saying, you know, that we're being led by someone, myself who is inclusive and is this Mary Poppins type figure and is looking out for everybody and. I truly was just doing it because I wanted to, I mean, everyone should just have an equal chance and if she was my shoe size of why not, um, but it just blew his mind. And so that was a really cool experience to just, and also lesson. And, you know, we're technically not in competition with anybody. I mean, we are, but just having that open heart can really give you a lot of opportunities. So, I mean, bar none, I would say that Mary Poppins experience. The best. Um, and then secondly was just tour. I mean, being on tour with the national tour Beauty and the Beast was just like an experience I can never explain. You have to travel the country and Canada and get paid and perform and have kids waiting for you at the stage door. And I mean, it's just, it was amazing. Absolutely. Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And you're listening to the Passionistas Project podcast and our interview with Jessica Lorion to tune into the Mamas in Training podcast. Visit JessicaLorion.com. If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us to continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting ThePassionistasProject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $1 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions. Now here's more of our interview with Jessica. So let's talk about your podcast. So what inspired you to create Mamas in Training. Jessica: We've been talking a little bit about this acting career. It's like you have ebbs and flows as an actor. And I especially didn't really have anything else that I was doing besides my job. And I was kind of looking for something creative. I was looking for something that I could control, because also, as I mentioned, there's very little that you control as an actor, or at least it feels that way. And. I was also in this place that all of my friends were starting to have kids. And so I was in conversation about motherhood almost 90% of the time. And so I was also a little bit of a birth story junkie. I love hearing birth stories. I know it's weird, but I do. Uh, and so I was naturally really just asking my friends about these things and was curious about them and the. Spark happened when my, one of my best friends had just had her and I went to go visit her two weeks after the baby was born. And she was just talking to me about how, when she was pumping or she's breastfeeding feels kind of lonely and isolating because she said, you know, if I'm over my in-laws, I have to go to a second bedroom or I have to like sit in the car and do it before we can go into a store or whatever. And so I thought, well, that's kind of crappy. And two of my friends at work were working on a podcast as well. So the podcast word had kind of flitted around my mind and I was a fan of podcasts. And so that was the moment I said, wait a minute. What if I interview moms about their journey into motherhood and the initial idea of the podcast, which has now changed, but the initial idea was. I would interview moms about their journey. And so that moms who were currently pumping or breastfeeding could listen and know that they weren't alone. And I originally called it the Pumping Podcast, but then it was truly over COVID and everything that I was introducing myself as a Momma in Training. And so I kind of thought, where am I in this story and in this podcast. And that's when I kind of discovered. That there needed to be a shift and I needed to narrow it down and make it more something that I could do. And I was doing, which was learning. And so now more specifically, it's called Mamas in Training and I interview moms, who often happen to also be experts in whatever they are doing now as a result of whatever challenges they experienced. So, um, and I learned from them what they wished they had known before they were pregnant or when they were pregnant or when they were a new mom, so that I can learn selfishly. And then any of my audience who are listening can learn right alongside. Um, cause we kind of study everything else in life, but we rarely study motherhood. And I think it's a really nice opportunity if we have the luxury or even if we don't when we're pregnant or a new mom, but just hearing from other people how things are going. Passionistas: What are a couple of things that you've learned that really surprised you? Jessica: There are three main topics that I've learned. And then I'll give you like another example of a couple of practical things. So the three main things mostly have been advocacy. So the importance of advocating for yourself, whether it's. When you're trying to conceive when you're pregnant or then when you're actually giving birth or postpartum, even, I mean, it continues and we have so much more control than we think that we do. So advocacy is huge, huge. Um, the second thing is community, the importance of community and how you can set these things up for yourself before that moment comes. And it doesn't necessarily have to just be like a food drain. Um, it can be, you know, a doula, it can be a lactation consultant. If you have the finances to do that. Having the community that extends even beyond your initial family or whoever's going to be there hopefully to help support you. Um, that's really key because first of all, we need to do a better job at letting our moms heal and we need to do a better job at talking about the stigmas that we feel. We know that we're not alone and we have that support. So community is huge. And then sort of the practical things are like little things. I didn't know that you can even, you know, there's a certain way to push when you're giving birth that can actually damage or not totally damaged, but can cause damage to your pelvic floor, like something called purple pushing and that's holding your breath and puff your cheeks out. And you're pushing down really hard instead of taking a deep breath in and letting it out as you breathe up. And a lot of. Nurses who are there with you when you're giving birth, we'll often say, take a deep breath and bear down and push, like you're going to poop. And yeah, there's a level of that, but there are other ways that we can do it. And I think we often take for face value what the doctors and the nurses say, because they do this all the time, but you can also say like, thanks for that advice. But I've actually learned that there's a better way that's going to work for me and my body. And I would have never thought something like. I would have never even thought that you can put music on or that you can ask to not know what your measurement is. So they're going to measure your cervix as, as your. Labor, but you don't have to know what it is. And oftentimes women feel like that's a better thing, not knowing because then they don't get in their head. You know, if they don't think that they're progressing because they're only two centimeters, you know, then they don't have to think about the number. They can just think about what the experience is and what they're feeling. And oftentimes when women don't think about it, they progress even faster because it's kind of that mental block. So it's moments like that and things like that, or the last tip I'll give is like a formula. So a majority of women, not all women, but a majority of women plan and prepare and hope to breastfeed. But what they kind of do is like, okay, I know that formula is an option, but I want to breastfeed. Yep. I plan to breastfeed. I know it's going to be hard, but I'm going to breastfeed, but what happens if you're in. Moment in that baby comes out. And that first day, those first few hours, you're trying to get that baby to latch. You're trying to get your milk to come out. Like there's so many different things that can slow down that process. And it's going to come to a time that baby's gonna need food. And if you don't have colostrum that you've prepared or you don't have a formula picked out now postpartum just a few hours after giving birth filled with hormones, filled with this overwhelming, like feeling you have to now. Either, just be comfortable with whatever formula the doctor decides or the nurse decides to give your baby, or you have to just sort of pick one out of thin air, or you have to just go with whatever they have at the hospital. But instead I've learned from this formula experts that I interviewed pick out a formula, whether or not you think you're going to use. But a formula that worst case scenario, if you had to use it, you feel comfortable with it. You feel comfortable with the ingredients, you feel comfortable with the price. You feel comfortable with everything and physically buy it, put it in your birth bag, take it to the hospital, but in your hospital bag, take it to the hospital and have it ready. And if you don't use it. But at least that level of stress is there. So like it's kind of these little practical things that I'm learning that I'm like, Ooh, love that. Ooh, that too. Passionistas: So have you ever thought about taking this beyond the podcast, a book or something else like that? Jessica: We have in different ways yeah, we'll have to see kind of how it develops right now. The way that I've extended it is that I have a membership. And so women, if they want more community, like I mentioned, they can sign up and they can, well, I have a free community on Facebook that anyone can just join as long as you're a mom expecting or seasoned mom. But I also have. Uh, a more in-depth community where we meet monthly on zoom and I bring in experts. So usually past podcast, guests to talk about a specific topic. So like I had one expert come in and talk about your pelvic floor and. Women who are in the group can ask questions directly to that podcast guest. And it's kind of cool for them cause they just, you know, they listened to the episode and now here's that person. Um, so that's the biggest benefit of the group. And of course I hope that that just grows and grows and grows so that more women are in there. And then we can all continue to connect and support and you know, there'll be breakout rooms and like all these fun things. But I have dabbled with the thought of some sort of a future course or something like that. Maybe not a book because I interviewed Heidi Markoff at What to Expect, and she's already got that pretty covered. But, um, I think some, some sort of reasonably priced course would be a good idea maybe along with a support group, because oftentimes I find that expecting moms. When they just get pregnant or just find out, they're kind of like, okay, what now? And they're going from all these different places and trying to sort through information. And so I would like to put all of the information that I've learned in one place. So someone can just say like, this is how you walk through this process slowly but surely. So with. I think I have to go through birth on my own first, before I feel comfortable doing that. So it'll probably be a couple of years, but in the, in the, in the brainstorming mind. But if anyone's listening or has women in your life who are expecting or new moms or aspiring moms, you can join now the free Facebook group or join our premium membership as well. I can send you those links. Passionistas: So you have an auto immune issue that's impacted your journey to motherhood. What advice would you give to somebody who may be going through kind of a similar situation? Jessica: When I mentioned earlier, I was trying to figure out where I fit in. A lot of people would say, you know, why the heck do you have a podcast about motherhood when you're not a mom? And it really was because when I got, I got this diagnosis actually right before tour, and then it just progressed and it was so bad, it was awful. And, and so the reason why I can't have kids right now is because of the medication that I'm on for that auto immune disease. And the medication has to completely be out of my body for months before I'm able to even try to conceive. You know, I'm 35. I would love to have had kids a long time ago. I've been with my husband for 13 years. Like it would be nice, but I can't. And so I kind of thought that this would be a nice opportunity to turn something that's kind of feels a little crappy and do something a little bit more positive. And so honestly, I will say that many people deal with autoimmune diseases in many different ways. And you have to do whatever is right for you at whatever stage you're in. So the things that I'm doing right now, I would recommend to do for anybody to do, but I can understand because when I was in the heat of it and my disease was at its worst. I could not picture doing anything that I'm currently doing. Um, so like my first recommendation is to completely shift your diet. And I know nobody likes to hear that, but there is a reason I, I won't try to stay on this soapbox for too long, but there's a reason why our world is so infused with. Fast food with terrible food, with all these fake things, going into our food and that correlates so directly with the reason why so many more people at such a young age are developing all these auto-immune diseases. Why do you think we have all these commercials for all these steroidal, you know, injections like Humira and that's what I was on. And in my opinion, I think that caused my arthritis. That's my personal opinion, but why do you think that's so directly related? You know, it's just this cycle and people get paid when we take these medications. So I would say if you have an ear to hear this, I would highly recommend checking out your. I went on Dr. Amy Myers autoimmune solution diet. It was basically an elimination diet. And then you add back in things over time. And by doing that, by controlling my stress, by finding something that gave me a passion like this podcast and keeping myself busy and occupied in a positive way, um, I really think completely has changed my disease. And I can proudly say that as of now, I'm on the lowest possible dosage of my both medic of both of my medications. And I'm hoping that as of next week I can drop down one of them completely. And then within the next month, the other one completely, and I was on a full dosage of these medications and I was my, my. Situation was severe, like hard, really severe. I had to buy a cane very severe. And so the fact that I'm managing. With food and with no other medication. I mean, it kind of sounds like a no brainer to me, but it's, it's hard. It's hard to hear that when, when you're struggling so much, so it would be to really take a look at your diet and it would be to get yourself something that just lights you up and makes you feel good because we need to lower the stress in our bodies for autoimmune diseases. Passionistas: What's your secret to a rewarding life? Jessica: I think it has a lot to do with. Being present and something that's kind of come over me in the past few years is sort of this definition of success. And so to circle back to my acting career, you know, because you have to have such a narrow focus. When you start out in the acting world theater world, you paint this picture of what success is going to look like. And so for so many years Broadway was it. And then I kind of started to get older and I kind of started to have freak outs with my husband and I was like, Broadway hasn't come yet. I also want to be a mom and how do I get on Broadway and be a mom? And I mean, people do it, but you go through all these things. And I remember specifically, he sat me down and he was like, well, what is success to you? And I was like, well, it's being on Broadway and that's what it was. And this could be anything for you. Like this could, if, if you're in a corporate job, this could be like getting that position or whatever. But then he said, which kind of shook my world a little bit. He was like, so just checking the national tour that you did, that wasn't success that wasn't successful? The Mary Poppins that you did, that wasn't successful? The commercial that you shot, that wasn't successful? The relationships that you've built and you've created that wasn't? Our marriage that's not successful? When you have a baby, is that successful? Is that success? And I was like, my mind kind of exploded for a second. I was like, wow, you're right. Like, there are so many other things. That success can mean. And so I think the way that I've kind of readjusted my thinking over the past five years or so, because it is hard to think, like, of course I wanted, I had that goal of Broadway, but just because I haven't gotten there yet, still have time still could doesn't mean that anything else that I do in my life isn't successful. And so I think the way that I sort of celebrate that and stay present in what I have done is by being aware and hairiest about everything. And so actually for 2021, I like to choose words at the new year. I don't necessarily like, um, resolutions. So my word for 2021 was awareness after I had read the, the greatest secret. It's really been unbelievable because every now and then I just remind myself about awareness and whether it's that I'm trying to be aware of the message that my husband is telling me, which is like, come sit on the couch with me for a second stop doing work. Or whether that's awareness of like this one thing has quote, unquote crossed my desk three times like maybe I should look into that. Or whether it's your body is feeling a little tired, a little push to the edge. Maybe you need to chill out a little bit. Like whatever awareness it is has really allowed me to stay more present and acknowledge that what I have and what I've done is really actually extraordinary. And there's more to come, but I can't discount what I've already done. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Jessica Lorion. To tune into the Mamas in Training podcast visit JessicaLorion.com. Please visit ThePassionistasProject.Com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Get $45 of free goodies with a one-year subscription using the code WINTERGOODIES. And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

“I know it's scary, but you can do whatever you want,” says Jessica Wester, a photographer and self-love advocate. For years, Jessica suffered with undiagnosed ADHD and a history of disordered eating. After finally receiving a diagnosis and stepping away from powerlifting competitions, Jessica now uses her photography and social media to help others improve their body image and mental health.In today's episode, Jessica details her fight to get her ADHD diagnosis, even when medical professionals dismissed her needs. After suffering from anxiety, depression and eating disorders since early adolescence, finally treating her ADHD has vastly improved her life. In addition, deciding to step away from her identity as a powerlifter and strength coach has allowed Jessica to rebuild her relationship with her body and discover her true passions.Tune into this week's episode of The Self Love Breakfast Club for a conversation about ADHD in women, powerlifting and body image, and advocating for yourself in all areas of your life. Learn how Jessica was able to take control of her physical and mental health and finally begin taking the steps she needed to heal.Quotes• “​​I hear, especially from women, like, ‘Oh, well, I've been doing this, so I can't really change.' And, you can do whatever. I know it's scary, but you can do whatever you want. And if you don't really love what you do, find a way to do something else.” (5:53-6:09 | Jessica)• “You know your body better than anyone and if you know something isn't quite right or something is off with your body, you have to keep pushing until you get answers, period.” (20:01-20:13 | Chrystal)• “There's a difference between having someone guide you into your healing, whether that be a life coach, a therapist, a doctor, and actually healing you. If someone says that your healing is in their hands, run away.” (22:51-23:06 | Chrystal)• “If you feel good, that's what matters. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or what anyone else says.” (33:51-33:55 | Jessica)• “You just have to stop listening to other people. You have to stop listening to people that criticize you. You have to stop listening to that inner critic.” (35:00-35:09 | Jessica)• “People don't realize that your energy is not something that you just have to let bleed out everywhere. You can protect your energy, not just from other humans, but also from the ick of social media.” (38:26-38:38 | Chrystal)Connect with Jessica Wester:https://www.instagram.com/_jessicawester/https://www.tiktok.com/@_jessicawester?https://www.jessicawester.com/Connect with Chrystal:http://chrystalrose.com/https://www.selflovebreakfastclub.com/https://www.instagram.com/xtalrose/https://www.instagram.com/selflovebreakfastclub/To join our Self Love Breakfast Club text community, text SLBC to 704-270-6577.Get Embodied with me & our community this month and BREATHE every day! Win prizes and go into 2024 chill AF. Signup here for free when you use code BADDIE: Breathworkbestie.com

“I know it's scary, but you can do whatever you want,” says Jessica Wester, a photographer and self-love advocate. For years, Jessica suffered with undiagnosed ADHD and a history of disordered eating. After finally receiving a diagnosis and stepping away from powerlifting competitions, Jessica now uses her photography and social media to help others improve their body image and mental health.In today's episode, Jessica details her fight to get her ADHD diagnosis, even when medical professionals dismissed her needs. After suffering from anxiety, depression and eating disorders since early adolescence, finally treating her ADHD has vastly improved her life. In addition, deciding to step away from her identity as a powerlifter and strength coach has allowed Jessica to rebuild her relationship with her body and discover her true passions.Tune into this week's episode of The Self Love Breakfast Club for a conversation about ADHD in women, powerlifting and body image, and advocating for yourself in all areas of your life. Learn how Jessica was able to take control of her physical and mental health and finally begin taking the steps she needed to heal.Quotes• “​​I hear, especially from women, like, ‘Oh, well, I've been doing this, so I can't really change.' And, you can do whatever. I know it's scary, but you can do whatever you want. And if you don't really love what you do, find a way to do something else.” (5:53-6:09 | Jessica)• “You know your body better than anyone and if you know something isn't quite right or something is off with your body, you have to keep pushing until you get answers, period.” (20:01-20:13 | Chrystal)• “There's a difference between having someone guide you into your healing, whether that be a life coach, a therapist, a doctor, and actually healing you. If someone says that your healing is in their hands, run away.” (22:51-23:06 | Chrystal)• “If you feel good, that's what matters. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or what anyone else says.” (33:51-33:55 | Jessica)• “You just have to stop listening to other people. You have to stop listening to people that criticize you. You have to stop listening to that inner critic.” (35:00-35:09 | Jessica)• “People don't realize that your energy is not something that you just have to let bleed out everywhere. You can protect your energy, not just from other humans, but also from the ick of social media.” (38:26-38:38 | Chrystal)Connect with Jessica Wester:https://www.instagram.com/_jessicawester/https://www.tiktok.com/@_jessicawester?https://www.jessicawester.com/Connect with Chrystal:http://chrystalrose.com/https://www.selflovebreakfastclub.com/https://www.instagram.com/xtalrose/https://www.instagram.com/selflovebreakfastclub/To join our Self Love Breakfast Club text community, text SLBC to 704-270-6577.

01:20 - The Superpower of Sociotechnical System (STS) Design: Considering the Social AND the Technical. The social side matters. * Critical Systems Thinking and the Management of Complexity by Michael C. Jackson (https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Systems-Thinking-Management-Complexity/dp/1119118379) * Open Systems * Mechanical * Animate * Social * Ecological * On Purposeful Systems: An Interdisciplinary Analysis of Individual and Social Behavior as a System of Purposeful Events (https://www.amazon.com/Purposeful-Systems-Interdisciplinary-Analysis-Individual/dp/0202307980/ref=sr_1_3?crid=IJR9EM3K73NE&dchild=1&keywords=on+purposeful+systems&qid=1625847353&sprefix=on+purposeful+systems%2Cstripbooks%2C157&sr=8-3) 09:14 - The Origins of Sociotechnical Systems * Taylorism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management) * Trond Hjorteland: Sociotechnical Systems Design for the “Digital Coal Mines”* (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/sociotechnical-systems-design-digital-coal-mines-trond-hjorteland/) * Norwegian Industrial Democracy Program (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-232X.1970.tb00505.x) 18:42 - Design From Above vs Self-Organization * Participative Design * Idealized Design * Solving Problems is not Systems Thinking 29:39 - Systemic Change and Open Systems * Organizationally Closed but Structurally Open * Getting Out of the Machine Age and Into Systems Thinking (The Information Age) * The Basis for the Viable System Model / Stafford Beer // Javier Livas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLHocBdG3A) * What is Cybernetics? Conference by Stafford Beer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6orMfmorg) * Jean Yang: Developer Experience: Stuck Between Abstraction and a Hard Place? (https://www.akitasoftware.com/blog-posts/developer-experience-stuck-between-abstraction-and-a-hard-place) * The Embodiment and Hermeneutic Relations 37:47 - The Fourth Industrial Revolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Industrial_Revolution) * 4 Historical Stages in the Development of Work * Mechanization * Automation * Centralization * Computerization * Ironies of Automation by Lisanne Bainbridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironies_of_Automation) * Ten challenges for making automation a "team player" in joint human-agent activity (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1363742) * Jessica Kerr - Principles of Collaborative Automation (https://vimeo.com/369277964) Reflections: Jessica: “You are capable of taking in stuff that you didn't know you see.” – Trond Trond: In physics we do our best to remove the people and close it as much as possible. In IT it's opposite; We work in a completely open system where the human part is essential. Rein: What we call human error is actually a human's inability to cope with complexity. We need to get better at managing complexity; not controlling it. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: REIN: Welcome to Episode 242 of Greater Than Code. I'm here with my friend, Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Rein and I'm excited because today we are here with Trond Hjorteland. Trond is an IT architect aspiring sociotechnical systems designer from the consulting firm Scienta.no—that's no as in the country code for Norway, not no as in no science. Trond has many years of experience with large, complex, business critical systems as a developer and an architect on middleware and backend applications so he's super interested in service orientation, domain driven design—went like that one—event driven architectures and of course, sociotechnical systems, which is our topic today! These happen in industries across the world like telecom, media, TV, government. Trond's mantra is, “Great products emerge from collaborative sensemaking and design.” I concur. Trond, welcome to Greater Than Code! TROND: Thank you for having me. It's fun being here. JESSICA: Trond, as a Northern European, I know our usual question about superpowers makes you nervous. So let me change it up a little bit: what is your superpower of sociotechnical system design? TROND: Oh, that's a good one. I'm glad you turned it over because we are from the land of the Jante, as you may have heard of, where people are not supposed to be anything better than anybody else. So being a superhero, that's not something that we are accustomed to now, so to speak. So the topic there, sociotechnical system, what makes you a superhero by having that perspective? I think it's in the name, really. Do you actually join the social and the technical aspects of things, whatever you do? But my focus is mainly in organizations and in relation to a person, or a team cooperating, designing IT solutions, and stuff like that, that you have to consider both the social and the technical and I find that we have too much – I have definitely done that. Focused too much on the technical aspects and not ignoring the social aspects, but at least when we are designing stuff we frequently get too attached to the technical aspects. So I think we need that balance. JESSICA: Yeah. TROND: So I guess, that is my superpower I get from that. JESSICA: When we do software design, we think we're designing software, which we think is made of technical code and infrastructure, and that software is made by people and for people and imagine that. Social side matters. TROND: Yeah, and I must say that since Agile in the early 2000s, the focus on the user has been increasing. I think that's better covered than it used to be, but I still think we miss out on we part that we create software and that is that humans actually create software. We often talk about the customer, for example. I guess, many of your listeners are creating such a system that actually the customers are using, like there's an end user somewhere. But frequently, there's also internal users of that system that you create like backend users, or there's a wide range of others stakeholders as well and – [overtalk] JESSICA: Internal users of customer facing systems? TROND: For example, yes. Like back office, for example. I'm working for our fairly large telecom operation and of course, their main goal is getting and keeping the end users, paying customers, but it's also a lot of stuff going on in the backend, in the back office like supporting customer service support, there is delivery of equipment to the users, there's shipment, there is maintenance, all that stuff, there's assurance of it. So there's a lot of stuff going on in that domain that we rarely think of when we create their IT systems, I find at least. JESSICA: But when we're making our software systems, we're building the company, we're building the next version of this company, and that includes how well can people in the back office do their jobs. TROND: Exactly. JESSICA: And us, like we're also creating the next version of software that we need to change and maintain and keep running and respond to problems in. I like to think about the developer interface. TROND: Exactly, and that is actually, there's an area where the wider sociotechnical term has popped up probably more frequently than before. It's actually that, because we think of the inter policies we need and organize the teams around for example, services are sometimes necessary and stuff like that. JESSICA: Inter policies, you said. TROND: Yeah, the inter policies offices go into this stuff. So we are looking into that stuff. We are getting knowledge on how to do that, but I find we still are not seeing the whole picture, though. Yes, that is important to get the teams right because you want them to not interact too much but enough so we want – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh yeah, I love it that the book says, “Collaboration is not the goal! Collaboration is expensive and it's a negative to need to do it, but sometimes you need to.” TROND: Yeah, exactly. So that'd be a backstory there. So the main system, I think and the idea is that you have a system consisting of parts and what sociotechnical systems focus a lot about is the social system. There is a social system and that social system, those parts are us as developers and those parts are stakeholders of course, our users and then you get into this idea of an open system. I think it was Bertanlanffy who coined that, or looked into that. JESSICA: Bertanlanffy open systems. TROND: Open system, yeah. JESSICA: Fair warning to readers, all of us have been reading this book, Critical Systems Thinking and the Management of Complexity by Michael C. Jackson and we may name drop a few systems thinking historical figures. TROND: Yes, and Bertanlanffy is one of those early ones. I think he actually developed some of the idea before the war, but I think he wrote the book after—I'm not sure, 1950s, or something—on general system thinking. It's General Systems Theory and he was also looking into this open system thing and I think this is also something that for example, Russell Ackoff took to heart. So he had to find four type of systems. He said there was a mechanical system, like people would think of when they hear system, like it's a technical thing. Like a machine, for example, your car is a system. But then they also added, there was something more that's another type of system, which is animal system, which is basically us. We consist of parts, but we have a purpose that is different from us than a car that makes us different. And then you take a lot of those parts and combine them, then you've got a social system. The interesting thing with the social system is that that system in of its own have a purpose, but also, the parts have a purpose. That's the thing which is different from the other thing. For an animal system, your parts don't have a purpose. Your heart doesn't really have a purpose; it's not giving a purpose. It doesn't have an end goal, so to speak that. There's nothing in – [overtalk] JESSICA: No, it has a purpose within the larger system. TROND: Yeah. JESSICA: But it doesn't have self-actualization. TROND: It's not purposeful. That's probably the word that I – [overtalk] JESSICA: Your heart isn't sitting there thinking, going beat, beat, beat. It does that, but it's not thinking it. TROND: No, exactly. [laughter] TROND: So I think actually Ackoff and I think there was a book called On Purposeful Systems, which I recommend. It's really a dense book. The Jackson book, it's long, but it's quite verbose so it's readable. Like the On Purposeful Systems is designed to be short and concise so it's basically just a list of bullet points almost. It's just a really hard read. But they get into the difference between a purposeful system and a goal-seeking system. Your heart will be goal-seeking. It has something to achieve, but it doesn't have a purpose in a sense. So that's the thing, which is then you as a person and you as a part of a social system and that's where I think the interesting thing comes in and that's where we're sociotechnical system really takes this on board is that in a social system, you have a set of individuals and you also have technical aspects of those system as well so that's the sociotechnical thing. JESSICA: Now you mentioned Ackoff said four kinds of systems. TROND: Yeah. H: Mechanical, animal, social? TROND: And then there's ecological. JESSICA: And then ecological, thanks. TROND: Yeah. So the ecological one is that where every parts have a purpose like us, but the whole doesn't have a purpose on its own. Like the human kind is not purposeful and we should be probably. [laughs] For example, with climate change and all that, but we are not. Not necessarily. REIN: This actually relates a little bit to the origins of sociotechnical systems because it came about as a way to improve workplace democracy and if you look at the history of management theory, if you look at Taylorism, which was the dominant theory at the time, the whole point of Taylorism is to take purposefulness away from the workers. So the manager decides on the tasks, the manager decides how the tasks are done—there's one right way to do the tasks—and the worker just does those actions. Basically turning the worker into a machine. So Taylorism was effectively a way to take a social system, affirm a company, and try to turn it into an animate system where the managers had purpose and the workers just fulfilled a purpose. TROND: Exactly. REIN: And sociotechnical system said, “What if we give the power of purposefulness back to the workers?” Let them choose the task, let them choose the way they do their tasks. TROND: Exactly, and this is an interesting theme because at the same time, as Taylor was developing his ideas, there were other people having similar ideas, like sociotechnical, but we never heard of them a late like Mary Parker Follett, for example. She was living at the same time, writing stuff at the same time, but the industry wasn't interested in listening to her because it didn't fit their machine model. She was a contrary to that and this was the same thing that sociotechnical system designers, or researchers, to put it more correctly, also experienced, for example, in a post-war England, in the coal mines. JESSICA: Oh yeah, tell us about the coal mines. TROND: Yeah, because that's where the whole sociotechnical system theory was defined, or was first coined what was there. There was a set of researchers from the Tavistock Institute for Human Relations, which actually came about like an offshoot of the Tavistock Clinic, which was working actually with people struggling from the war after the Second World War. JESSICA: Was that in Norway? TROND: No, that was exactly in England, that was in London. Tavistock is in London. JESSICA: Oh! TROND: Yeah. So it was an offshoot of that because there were researchers there that had the knowledge that there was something specific about the groups. There was somebody called Bion and there was a Kurt Lewin, which I think Jessica, you probably have heard of. JESSICA: Is that Kurt Lewin? TROND: Yes, that's the one. Absolutely. JESSICA: Yeah. He was a psychologist. TROND: Yeah. So he was for example, our main character of the sociotechnical movement in England in the post-war was Eric Trist and he was working closely with Lewin, or Lewin as you Americans call him. They were inspired by the human relations movement, if you like so they saw they had to look into how the people interact. So they observed the miners in England. There was a couple of mines where they had introduced some new technology called the longwall where they actually tried to industrialize the mining. They have gone from autonomous groups into more industrialized, like – [overtalk] JESSICA: Taylorism? TROND: Yes, they had gone all Taylorism, correct. JESSICA: “Your purpose is to be a pair of hands that does this.” TROND: Exactly, and then they had shifts. So one shift was doing one thing, then other shift was doing the second thing and that's how they were doing the other thing. So they were separating people. They had to have been working in groups before, then they were separated to industrialize like efficiently out of each part. JESSICA: Or to grouplike tasks with each other so that you only have one set of people to do a single thing. TROND: Yeah. So one group was preparing and blowing and breaking out the coal, somebody was pushing it out to the conveyors, and somebody else was moving into the instrument, or the machinery to the next place. This is what's the three partnership shifts were like. What they noticed then is that they didn't get the efficiency that they expected from this and also, people were leaving. People really didn't like this way of working; there was a lot of absenteeism and there were a lot of crows and uproar and it didn't go well, this new technology which they had too high hopes for. So then Trist and a couple of others like Bamford observed something that happened in one of the mines that people actually, some of them self-organized and went back to the previous way of working in autonomous teams plus using this new technology. They self-organized in order to actually to be able to work in this alignment, but this was the first time that I saw this type of action that they actually created their own semi-autonomous teams as they called them. JESSICA: So there was some technology that was introduced and when they tried to make it about the technology and get people to use it the way they thought it would be most efficient, it was not effective. TROND: Not effective? JESSICA: But yet the people working in teams were able to use the technology. TROND: Yeah. Actually, so this is the interesting part is when you have complex systems then you can have self-organization happening there and these workers, they were so frustrated. They're like, “Okay. Let's take matters in our own hands, let's create groups where we can actually work together.” So they created these autonomous groups and this was something that Eric Trist and Ken Bamford observed. So they saw that when they did that, the absenteeism and the quality of work-life increased a lot and also, productivity increased a lot. There were a few mines observed that did this and they compared to other mines that didn't and the numbers were quite convincing. So you should think “Oh, this would use them,” everybody would start using this approach. No, they didn't. Of course, management, the leadership didn't want this. They were afraid of losing the power so they worked against it. So just after a few research attempts, there wasn't any leverage there and actually, they increased the industrialization with a next level of invention was created that made it even worse so it grinded to a halt. Sociotechnical was a definer, but it didn't have the good fertile ground to grow. So that's when they came to my native land, to Norway. JESSICA: Ah. TROND: Yeah. So Fred Emery was one of those who worked with Trist and Bramforth a lot back then and also traced himself, actually came to Norway as almost like a governmental project. There was a Norwegian Industrial Democracy Program, I think it was called, it was actually established by – [overtalk] JESSICA: There was a Norwegian Industrial Democracy Program. That is so not American. TROND: [laughs] Exactly. So that probably only happen in Norway, I suppose and there were a lot of reasons for that. One of them is, especially as that we struggled with the industry after the war, because we were just invaded by Germany and was under rule so we had nothing to build. So they got support from America, for example, to rebuild after the war, but also, Norwegians are the specific type of persons, if you like. They don't like to be ruled over. So the high industrial stuff didn't go down well with the workers even worse than in England, but not in mines because we don't have any mines so just like creating nails, or like paper mills. Also, the same thing happened as I said, in England, that people were not happy with the way these things were going. But the problem is in Norway that this was covering all the mines, not just a few mines here and there. This was going all the way up to the – the workers unions were collaborating with the employers unions. So they were actually coming together. This project was established by these two in collaboration and actually, the government was also coming and so, there were three parts to this initiative. And then the Tavistock was called in to help them with this project, or the program to call it. So then it started off your experiments in Norway and then I went more – in England, they observed mostly, like the Tavistock, and in Norway, they actually started designing these type of systems, political systems, they're autonomous work groups and all that. They did live experiments and the like so there was action research as a way of – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh, action research. TROND: Yeah, where you actually do research on the ground. This was also from Kurt Lewin, I believe. So I know they did a lot of research there and got similar results as in England. But also, this went a bit further than Norway. This actually went into the law, how to do this. So like work participation, for example and there was also this work design thing that came out of it. It's like workers have some demands that goes above just a livable wage. They want the type of job that meant something, where they were supposed to grow, they were supposed to learn on the job, they were supposed to – there were a lot of stuff that they wanted and that was added to actually the law. So this is part of Norwegian law today, what came out of that research. JESSICA: You mentioned that in Norway, they started doing design and yet there's the implication that it's design of self-organizing teams. Is that conflict? Like, design from above versus self-organization. TROND: Yes, it did and that is also something that I discovered in Norway so well-observed, Jessica. This is actually what happened in Norway. So the researchers saw that they were struggling to getting this accepted properly by the workers, then I saw okay, they have to get the workers involved. Then they started with this, what they call participative design. The workers were pulled in to design the work they worked on, or to do together with the researchers, but the researchers were still regarded as experts still. So there was a divide between the researches and the workers, but the workers weren't given a lot of freewill to design how they wanted this to work themselves. One of the latest experiments, I think the workers weren't getting the full freedom to design and I think it was the aluminum industry. I think they were creating a new factory and the workers weren't part of designing how they should work in that factory, this new factory. They saw that they couldn't just come in and “This is how it works in the mines in England, this is how we're going to do it.” That didn't work in Norway. REIN: And one of the things that they've found was that these systems were more adaptable than Taylorism. So there was one of these programs in textile mills in India that had been organized according to scientific management AKA Taylorism. And what they found, one of the problems was that if any perturbation happened, any unexpected event, they stopped working. They couldn't adapt and when they switched to these self-organizing teams, they became better at adaptation, but they also just got more production and higher quality. So it was just a win all around. You're not trading off here, it turns out. JESSICA: You can say we need resilience because of incidents. But in fact, that resilience also gives you a lot of flexibility that you didn't know you needed. TROND: Exactly. You are capable of taking in stuff that you couldn't foresee like anything that happens because the people on the ground who know this best and actually have all the information they need are actually able to adapt. Lots better then to have a structure like a wild process, I think. REIN: One of the principles of resilience engineering is that accidents are normal work. Accidents happen as a result of normal work, which means that normal work has all of the same characteristics. Normal work requires adaptation. Normal work requires balancing trade-offs competing goals. That's all normal work. It just, we see it in incidents because incidents shine a light on what happened. TROND: I think there was an American called Pasmore who coined this really well. He said, “STS design was intended tended to produce a win-win-win-win. Human beings were more committed, technology operated closer to the potential and the organization performed better overall while adapting more readily to changes in its environment.” This has pretty much coining what STS is all about. REIN: Yeah. I'm always on the lookout because they're rare for these solutions that are just strictly better in a particular space. Where you're not making trade-offs, where you get to have it all, that's almost unheard of. JESSICA: It's almost unheard of and yet I feel like we could do a lot of more of it. Who was it who talks about dissolving the problem? REIN: Ackoff. TROND: That's Ackoff, yeah. JESSICA: Yeah, that's Ackoff in Idealized Design. TROND: Where he said – [overtalk] REIN: He said, “The best way to solve a problem is to redesign the system that contains it so that the problem no longer exists.” TROND: Yeah, exactly. JESSICA: And in software, what are some examples of that that we have a lot? Like, the examples where we dissolve coordination problems by saying the same team is responsible for deployment? REIN: I've seen problem architectures be dissolved by a change in the product. It turns out that a better way to do it for users also makes possible a better architecture and so you can stop solving that hard problem that was really expensive. JESSICA: Oh, right. So the example of item potency of complete order buttons: if you move the idea generation to the client, that problem just goes away. TROND: Yeah, and I have to say another example is if you have two teams that work well together. [chuckles] You have to communicate more. Okay, but that doesn't help because that's not where our problem is. If you redesign the teams, for example, then if they – instead of having fun on the backend teams, if you redesign, you have no verticals, then you haven't solved the problem. You have resolved it. It is gone because they are together now in one thing. So I think there is a lot of examples of this, but it is a mindset because people tend to say, if there is something problem, they want to analyze it as it is and then figure out how to fix the parts and then – [overtalk] JESSICA: Yeah, this is our obsession with solving problems! TROND: Yes. JESSICA: Solving problems is not systems thinking. TROND: No, it's not. Exactly. JESSICA: Solving problems is reactive. It feels productive. It can be heroic. Whereas, the much more subtle and often wider scope of removing the problem, which often falls into the social system. When you change the social system, you can resolve technical problems so that they don't exist. That's a lot more congressive and challenging and slower. TROND: It is and that is probably where STS has struggled. It didn't struggle as much, but that is also here compared to the rest of the world. They said because you have to fight – there is a system already in place and that system is honed in on solving problems as you were saying. JESSICA: That whole line management wants to solve the problem by telling them what workers want to do and it's more important that their solution work, then that a solution work. TROND: Yes, exactly and also, because they are put in a system where that's normal. That is common sense to them. So I often come back to that [inaudible] quote is that I get [inaudible], or something like that is that because a person in a company, he's just a small – In this large company, I'm just a small little tiny piece of it; there's no chance in anyhow that I can change it. JESSICA: Yeah. So as developers, one reason that we focus on technical dilutions and technical design is because we have some control over that. TROND: Yes. JESSICA: We don't feel control over the social system, which is because you can never control a social system; you can only influence it. TROND: So what I try to do in an organization is that I try to find a, change agents around in the organization so I get a broader picture not only understanding it, but also record broader set of attacks, if you like it—I'm not just calling it attacks, but you get my gist—so you can create a more profound change not just a little bit here, a little bit though. Because when you change as society, if we solve problems, we focus on the parts and we focus on the parts, we are not going to fix the hole. That is something that Ackoff was very adamant about and he's probably correct. You can optimize – [overtalk] JESSICA: Wait. Who, what? I didn't understand. TROND: Ackoff. JESSICA: Ackoff, that was that. TROND: So if you optimize every part, you don't necessarily make the system better, but he said, “Thank God, you usually do. You don't make it worse.” [laughs] REIN: Yeah. He uses the example of if you want to make a car, so you take the best engine and the best transmission, and you take all of the best parts and what do you have? You don't have a car. You don't have the best car. You don't even have a car because the parts don't fit together. It's entirely possible to make every part better and to make the system worse and you also sometimes need to make a part worse to make the system better. TROND: And that is fascinating. I think that is absolutely fascinating that you have to do that. I have seen that just recently, for example, in our organization, we have one team that is really good at Agile. They have nailed it almost, this team. But the rest of the organization are not as high level and good at Agile and the organization is not thrilled to be Agile in a sense because it's an old project-oriented organization so it is industrialized in a sense. Then you have one team that want to do STS; they want to be an Agile super team. But when they don't fit with the rest, they actually make the rest worse. So actually, in order to make it the whole better, you can't have this local optimizations, you have to see the whole and then you figure out how to make the whole better based on the part, not the other one. JESSICA: Yeah. Because well, one that self-organizing Agile team can't do that properly without having an impact on the rest of the organization. TROND: Exactly. JESSICA: And when the rest of the organization moves much more slowly, you need a team in there that's slower. And I see this happen. I see Agile teams moving too fast that the business isn't ready to accept that many changes so quickly. So we need a slower – they don't think of it this way, but what they do is they add people. They add people and that slows everything down so you have a system that's twice as expensive in order to go slower. That's my theory. TROND: The fascinating thing, though—and this is where the systems idea comes in—is that if you have this team that really honed this, that they have nailed the whole thing exactly, they're moving as fast as they can and all that. But the rest of it, they'll say it's not, then you have to interact the rest of organization, for example. So they have been bottlenecked everywhere they look. So what they end up doing is that they pull in work, more work than they necessarily can pull through because they have to. Unless they just have to sit waiting. Nobody feels – [overtalk] JESSICA: And then you have nowhere to fucking progress. TROND: Exactly. So then you make it worse – [overtalk] JESSICA: Then you couldn't get anything done. TROND: Exactly! So even a well-working team would actually break in the end because of this. REIN: And we've organized organizations around part maximization. Every way of organizing your business we know of is anti-systemic because they're all about part optimization. Ours is a list of parts and can you imagine going to a director and saying, “Listen, to make this company better, we need to reduce your scope. We need to reduce your budget. We need to reduce your staff. TROND: Yeah. [laughs] That is a hard sell. It is almost impossible. So where I've seen it work—no, I haven't seen that many. But where I've seen that work, you have to have some systemic change coming all the way from the top, basically. Somebody has to come in and say, “Okay, this is going to be painful, but we have to change. The whole thing has to change,” and very few companies want to do that because that's high risk. Why would you do that? So they shook along doing that minor problem-solving here and there and try to fix the things, but they are not getting the systemic change that they probably need. JESSICA: Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why startups wind up eating the lunch of bigger companies; because startups aren't starting from a place that's wrong for what they're now doing. TROND: Exactly. They are free to do it. They have all the freedom that we want the STS team to have. The autonomous sociotechnical systems teams, those are startups. So ideally, you're consisting a lot of startups. REIN: And this gets back to this idea of open systems and the idea of organizationally closed, but structurally open. TROND: Yeah. REIN: It comes from [inaudible] and this idea is that an organization, which is the idea of the organization—IBM as an organization is the idea of IBM, it's not any particular people. IBM stays IBM, but it has to reproduce its structure and they can reproduce its structure in ways that change, build new structure, different structure, but IBM is still IBM. But organizations aren't static and actually, they have to reproduce themselves to adapt and one of the things that I think makes startups better here is that their ability to change their structure as they produce it, they have much more agility. Whereas, a larger organization with much more structure, it's hard to just take the structure and just move it all over here. TROND: Exactly. JESSICA: It's all the other pieces of the system fit with the current system. TROND: Yeah. You have to share every part in order to move. JESSICA: Right. REIN: And also, the identity of a startup is somewhat fluid. Startups can pivot. Can you imagine IBM switching to a car company, or something? TROND: I was thinking exactly the same; you only see pivots in small organizations. Pivots are not normal in large organizations. That will be a no-go. Even if you come and suggested it, “I hear there's a lot of money in being an entrepreneur.” I wouldn't because that would risk everything I have for something that is hypothetical. I wouldn't do that. REIN: Startups, with every part of them, their employees can turn over a 100%, they can get a new CEO, they can get new investors. JESSICA: All at a much faster time scale. TROND: Also, going back to Ackoff, he's saying that we need to go get out of the machine age. Like he said, we have been in the machine age since the Renaissance, we have to get out of that and this is what system thinking is. It's a new age as they call it. Somebody calls it the information age, for example and it's a similar things. But we need to start thinking differently; how to solve problems. The machine has to go, at least for social systems. The machine is still going to be there. We are going to work with machines. We're going to create machines. So machines – [overtalk] JESSICA: We use machines, but our systems are bigger than that. TROND: Yes. JESSICA: Systems are interesting than any machine and when we try build systems as machines, we really limit ourselves. TROND: So I think that is also one of the – I don't know if it's a specific principle for following STS that says that man shouldn't be an extension of the machine, he should be a part of machine. He should be using the machine. He should be like an extension of the machine. JESSICA: Wait. That the man being an extension of machine, the machine should be an extension of man? TROND: Yeah. JESSICA: Right. [inaudible] have a really good tool, you feel that? TROND: Mm hm. REIN: This actually shows up in joint cognitive systems, which shares a lot with sociotechnical systems, as this idea that there are some tools through which you perceive the world that augment you and there are other tools that represent the world. Some tools inside you and you use them to interact with the world, you interact with the world using them to augment your abilities, and there are other tools that you have just a box here that represents the world and you interact with the box and your understanding of the world is constrained by what the box gives you. These are two completely different forms of toolmaking and what Stafford Beer, I think it might say is that there are tools that augment your variety, that augment your ability to manage complexity, and there are tools that reduce complexity, there are tools that attenuate complexity. JESSICA: Jean Yang was talking about this the other day with respect to developer tools. There are tools like Heroku that reduce complexity for you. You just deploy the thing, just deploy it and internally, Heroku is dealing with a lot of complexity in order to give you that abstraction. And then there are other tools, like Honeycomb, that expose complexity and help you deal with the complexity inherent in your system. TROND: Yeah. Just to go back so I get this quote right is that the individual is treated as a complimentary to machine rather than an extension of it. JESSICA: Wait, what is treating this complimentary to machine? TROND: The individual. JESSICA: The individual. TROND: The person, yeah. Because that is what you see in machine shops and those are also what happened in England when they called mining work again, even more industrialized, people are just an extension of the machine. JESSICA: We don't work like that. TROND: Yeah. I feel like that sometimes, I must admit, that I'm part of the machine. That I'm just a cog in the machine and we are not well-equipped to be cogs in machines, I think. Though, we should be. REIN: Joint cognitive systems call this the embodiment relation where the artifact is transparent and it's a part of the operator rather than the application so you can view the world through it but it doesn't restrict you. And then the other side is the hermeneutic relation. So hermeneutics is like biblical hermeneutics is about the interpretation of the Bible. So the hermeneutic relation is where the artifact interprets the world for you and then you view the artifact. So like for example, most of the tools we use to respond to incidents, logs are hermeneutic artifacts. They present their interpretation of the world and we interact with that interpretation. What I think of as making a distinction between old school metrics and observability, is observability is more of an embodiment relationship. Observability lets you ask whatever question you want; you're not restricted to what you specifically remember to log, or to count. TROND: Exactly. And this is now you're getting into the area where I think actually STS – now we have talked about a lot about STS in the industrial context here, but I think it's not less, maybe even more relevant now because especially when we're moving into the so-called Fourth Industrial Revolution where the machines have taken over more and more. Like, for example, AI, or machine learning, or whatever. Because then the machine has taken more and more control over our lives. So I think we need this more than even before because the machines before were simple in comparison and they were not designed by somebody in the same sense that for example, AI, or machine learning was actually developed. I wouldn't say AI because it's still an algorithm underneath, but it does have some learning in it and we don't know what the consequences of that is, as I said. So I think it's even more relevant now than it was before. JESSICA: Yeah. TROND: [chuckles] I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Fourth Industrial Revolution, or see, that is. JESSICA: Or hear something about it. You want to define it to our listeners? TROND: Somebody called it this hyperphysical systems. JESSICA: Hyperphysical? TROND: Yes, somebody called it hyperphysical systems. I'm not sure if you want to go too much into that, to be honest, but. So the Fourth Industrial Revolution is basically about the continuous automation of manufacturing and industrial practices using smart technology, machine-to-machine communication, internet of things, machine learning improves communication and self-monitoring and all that stuff. We see the hint of it, that something is coming and that is that different type of industry than what we currently are in. I think the Industrial 4.0 was probably coined in Germany somewhere. So there's a definition that something is coming out of that that is going to put the humans even more on the sideline and I think for us working in I, we see some of this already. The general public, maybe don't at the same level. REIN: So this reminds me of this other idea from cognitive systems that there are four stages, historical stages, in the development of work. There's mechanization, which replaces human muscle power with mechanical power and we think of that as starting with the original industrial revolution, but it's actually much older than that with agriculture, for example. Then there's automation, there's a centralization, and then there's computerization. Centralization has happened on a shorter time span and computerization has happened at a very short time span relative to mechanization. So one of the challenges is that we got really good at mechanization because we've been doing it since 500 BC. We're relatively less good at centering cognition in the work. The whole point of mechanization and automation was to take cognition out of the work and realizing you have to put it back in, it's becoming much more conspicuous that people have to think to do their work. TROND: Yeah. JESSICA: Because we're putting more and more of the work into the machine and yet in much software system, many software systems especially like customer facing systems, we need that software to not just be part of the machine, to not do the same thing constantly on a timescale of weeks and months. We need it to evolve, to participate in our cognition as we participate in the larger economy. TROND: Yeah. REIN: And one of the ironies of this automation—this comes from Bainbridge's 1983 paper—is that when you automate a task, you don't get rid of a task. You make a new task, which is managing the automation, and this task is quite different from the task you were doing before and you have no experience with it. You may not even have training with it. So automation doesn't get rid of work; automation mutates work into a new unexpected form. JESSICA: Right. One of the ironies of automation is that now you have created that management at the automation and you think, “Oh, we have more automation. We can pay the workers less.” Wrong. You could pay the workers more. Now collectively, the automation plus the engineers who are managing it are able to do a lot more, but you didn't save money. You added a capability, but you did not save money. REIN: Yeah, and part of that is what you can automate are the things we know how to automate, which are the mechanical tasks and what's left when you automate all of the mechanical tasks are the ones that require thinking. TROND: And that's where we're moving into now, probably that's what the Fourth Industrial Revolution is. We try and automate this stuff that probably shouldn't be automated. Maybe, I don't know. JESSICA: Or it shouldn't be automated in a way that we can't change. TROND: No, exactly. REIN: This is why I'm not buying stock in AI ops companies because I don't think we figured out how to automate decision-making yet. JESSICA: I don't think we want to automate decision-making. We want to augment. TROND: Yeah, probably. So we're back to that same idea that the STS said we should be complimentary to machine, not an extension of it. JESSICA: Yes. That's probably a good place to wrap up? TROND: Yeah. REIN: Yeah. There's actually a paper by the way, Ten Challenges in Making Automation A Team Player. JESSICA: [laughs] Or you can watch my talk on collaborative automation. TROND: Yeah. JESSICA: Do you want to do reflections? REIN: Sure. JESSICA: I have a short reflection. One quote that I wrote down that you said, Trond in the middle of something was “You are capable of taking in stuff that you didn't know you see,” and that speaks to, if you don't know you see it, you can't automate the seeing of it. Humans are really good at the everything else of what is going on. This is our human superpower compared to any software that we can design and that's why I am big on this embodiment relation. Don't love the word, but I do love tools that make it easier for me to make and implement decisions that give me superpowers and then allow me to combine that with my ability to take input from the social system and incorporate that. TROND: I can give it a little bit of an anecdote. My background is not IT. I come from physics—astrophysics, to be specific—and what we were drilled in physics is that you should take the person out of the system. You should close the system as much as possible. Somebody said you have to take a human out of it if you want observe. Physics is you have no environment, you have no people, there's nothing in it so it's completely closed, but we work and here, it's complete opposite. I work in a completely open system where the human part is essential. JESSICA: We are not subject to the second law of thermodynamics. TROND: No, we are not. That is highly restricted for a closed system. We are not. So the idea of open system is something that I think we all need to take on board and we are the best one to deal with those open systems. We do it all the time, every day, just walking with a complex open system. I mean, everything. JESSICA: Eating. TROND: Eating, yeah. REIN: And actually, one of the forms, or the ways that openness was thought of is informational openness. Literally about it. JESSICA: That's [inaudible] take in information. TROND: Yeah. Entropy. JESSICA: Yeah. TROND: Yeah, exactly. And we are capable of controlling that variance, we are the masters of that. Humans, so let's take advantage of that. That's our superpower as humans. REIN: Okay, I can go. So we've been talking a little bit about how the cognitive demands of work are changing and one of the things that's happening is that work is becoming higher tempo. Decisions have to be made more quickly and higher criticality. Computers are really good at making a million mistakes a second. So if you look at something like the Knight Capital incident; a small bug can lose your company half a billion dollars in an instant. So I think what we're seeing is that this complexity, if you combine that with the idea of requisite variety, the complexity of work is exploding and what we call human error is actually a human's inability to cope with complexity. I think if we want to get human error under control, what we have to get better at is managing complexity, not controlling it – [overtalk] JESSICA: And not by we and by we don't mean you, the human get better at this! This system needs to support the humans in managing additional complexity. REIN: Yeah. We need to realize that the nature of work has changed, that it presents these new challenges, and that we need to build systems that support people because work has never been this difficult. JESSICA: Both, social and technical systems. TROND: No, exactly. Just to bring it back to where we started with the coal miners in England. Working there was hard, it was life-threatening; people died in the mines. So you can imagine this must be terrible, but it was a quite closed system, to be honest, compared to what we have. That environment is fairly closed. It isn't predictable at the same size, but we are working in an environment that is completely open. It's turbulent, even. So we need to focus on the human aspect of things. We can't just treat things that machines does work. JESSICA: Thank you for coming to this episode of Greater Than Code. TROND: Yeah, happy to be here. Really fun. It was a fun discussion. REIN: So that about does it for this episode of Greater Than Code. Thank you so much for listening wherever you are. If you want to spend more time with this awesome community, if you donate even $1 to our Patreon, you can come to us on Slack and you can hang out with all of us and it is a lot of fun. Special Guest: Trond Hjorteland.

01:13 - Andrea's Superpower: Distilling Complexity * Approaching Copywriting in a Programmatic Way * Word-land vs Abstract-land 09:00 - “Technical” vs “Non-Technical” * This or That Thinking 16:20 - Empathy is Critical * Communication Artifacts * Audience/User Impact * Programmer Aptitude Test (PAT) 33:00 - Reforming Hiring Practices and Systems * Core Values * Exercism.io (https://exercism.io/) * Retrospectives 39:28 - Performance Reviews * Continuous Feedback * Brave New Work by Aaron Dignan (https://www.bravenewwork.com/) * Team of Teams: New Rules of Engagement for a Complex World (https://www.amazon.com/Team-Teams-Rules-Engagement-Complex/dp/1591847486) * Continuous Improvement & Marginal Gains “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.” ~ Arthur Ashe Empathy In Tech (https://www.empathyintech.com/) Corgibytes (https://corgibytes.com/) Reflections: Mando: Empathy is being able to view and identify other perspectives. Jess: Help happens when you have empathy for individuals who aren't the great majority of people using the software. Casey: The best way to develop empathy for someone else is to get their feedback. Do it during an interview! Andrea: Diving deeper than code is valuable! This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: JESSICA: Good morning and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 237. I'm Jessica Kerr and I'm happy to be here today with my friend, Mando Escamilla! MANDO: Hey, Jess. Thanks. I am happy to be here with my friend, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey and we're all here with Andrea Goulet. Andrea is a sought-after keynote speaker for conferences around the world, empowering audiences to deepen their technical skills for understanding and communicating with others. She is best known for her work defining Empathy-Driven Development, a framework that helps software engineers anchor their decisions and deliverables on the perspectives of the people who will be impacted by what they create. Andrea is a co-founder of Corgibytes, a software consultancy that helps organizations pay down technical debt and modernize legacy systems. You can recognize her by the JavaScript tattoo on her wrist. Welcome, Andrea. ANDREA: Hi, welcome! Nice to be here. CASEY: We always like to start with a question, which I think you're prepared for, that is what is your superpower, Andrea, and how did you acquire it? ANDREA: Yeah! First of all, I just love that y'all ask this. I think it's just such a nice way to get to know different people. I was thinking about this because you sent it a little bit ago and I was thinking maybe empathy, given the work I do. But I don't actually think that's it. I feel like I'm constantly trying to learn more about empathy, but I do think that what my superpower is, is distilling complexity. So I went back and looked at what the thread is of all the recommendations I've got on LinkedIn and things like that. It's not something that I would necessarily say that I noticed, but it's something that other people have noticed about me. The idea of taking a really abstract and big, gnarly, complex topic, and being able to distill it down to its essence and then communicate either what the importance is, or what the impact is to other people. I think that's why I've gravitated towards big, gnarly things like legacy code. [chuckles] Because what motivates me is impact and how do we have the work that we do make as big of an impact as possible? So the way I got into software was really a twisty and windy road. I started out as a copywriter and I think that's where the distilling complexity comes down because I would sit with clients and learn all about their businesses. And then I would write typically, a website, or some kind of marketing material and they would say, “You said what was in my head and I couldn't say it.” JESSICA: Wow. ANDREA: And when I got into software, I had a friend of mine from high school, Scott, who's my co-founder at Corgibytes, he came up to me because I had been writing about my writing and he said, “You're not a writer, you're actually a programmer because the way that your brain works, you're thinking in terms of inputs and manipulating data and outputs, and that's exactly what a programmer does.” So then, he wanted to fix legacy code for a living. I didn't even know what that was at that point, thought it was a good thing and I found that my ability to both walk in and understand not just the syntax of what's going on, but the business challenges and how everything links together. With that, you can create a sense of cohesion on a team and getting different people to work together and different people to see each other's points of view, because when you're able to distill a perspective over here and say, “Okay, well, this is what this person's trying to say,” and still, this over here. “Okay, I think this is what this person's trying to say.” I feel like a lot of times I am kind of like a translator, but it's taken me a long time. I've been in software 12 years now and I still have massive imposter syndrome like, I don't belong because I'm not the fastest person on the keyboard. I really struggle with working memory. My visualization is really a struggle, but I do really great in an ensemble. When I started ensemble programming—sometimes it's referred to as mob programming—I was like, “I can do this. Oh my gosh, this makes sense and I belong.” I think just over the years, little things like hearing the joke – I was at a conference, Jess, I think this may have been ETE when you and I connected, but I heard a joke and it was, I think Phil Carlton had first said it and it was like, “There's only two hard problems in computer science, cache invalidation and naming things,” and then somebody else said, “Off-by-1 errors.” I remember I was like, “Y'all think naming things is hard?” Like, help me understand how that's hard because that's – JESSICA: [inaudible]? Oh my gosh, that's hard. ANDREA: Yeah, and to me, it just comes so naturally. I think that's kind of the thing is figuring out where is your trait, where's your skillset. I remember when I first started doing open source contributions, I haven't done those in a long time, but just going in and modifying the language on help messages and turning them from passive to active voice. They got accepted, it was on some high-profile projects, and it was like, I didn't really feel like I was even doing much and I still feel like, “Is that even a big deal?” But I think that's kind of the definition of a superpower a little bit is that – JESSICA: Yeah, it's easy for you. [laughs] ANDREA: You don't recognize that it's hard for other people. Yeah, and so it's neat now that it's like I'm starting to come into my own and leaning into that, and then helping other people see that the way that I approach naming things, the way I approach copywriting is actually in a very programmatic way. It's leaning on frameworks. It's leaning on patterns that I use over time. I know, Casey, you and I have talked last week about like when I first go to a conference like using open-ended questions versus closed-ended questions and these little kind of communication hacks that I've developed over the years. So now putting those together in a framework to help other people remember that when we're coding, we're not coding for a computer, we're coding through a computer for other people. The computer is just like a code is just a tool. It's a powerful tool. But a lot of times – CASEY: I have a question for you, Andrea. ANDREA: Yeah. CASEY: About that, I find myself switching gears between word land and abstract land. So if I'm coding and I'm not thinking of words, the naming is hard, but sometimes I can switch gears in a different head space. It's like a different me and then I'm naming things really well. Especially if I'm looking at someone else's code, I don't have to be an abstract land; they did that part already. Do you find yourself switching between the two? ANDREA: Oh, all the time. Yeah, and especially, too, when you're writing prose. There's two different kind of aspects of your brain. There's the creative conceptual side and then there's the analytical rational side and everybody has both. So it does require you to come out of the abstract side in that and then move into more of the analytical space, which is why I love pairing. I love coding as a group because then that way, it's like the mental model is shared and so, I can stay in my world of naming things really well, or I don't know that we need to be that precise if we try to – like, when I was in one group and they were trying to have a timing thing and it was like down to the millisecond and I was like, “Y'all, we don't need to be that precise. We just need to have this check once every 10 minutes,” and that saved like 6 hours of work. Just being able to say that thing and be the checkpoint. JESSICA: Yeah. Someone has to be super down in the details of what to type next and it helps to have someone else thinking about it at the broader perspective of why are we doing this? ANDREA: Yeah, and that's me, typically and I love that role, but it's very different than I think what goes through people's minds when they envision a software developer. JESSICA: Yeah, maybe they envisioned the things that software developers do that other people don't. Typing curly braces. ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: I still think of that when I'm doing it. When I think of myself as a software developer, I think of myself as the person who hasn't gotten up from their desk in 5 hours and just hunched over, just blazing fast hacking on something that probably is kind of dumb. [laughter] But when I don't spend my day like that, I don't really feel exactly like I've been doing my job and it's something that I struggle with because I know that's not the job in its totality by any means and it doesn't mean that I'm not getting good work done. JESSICA: Not even close to most of the job. MANDO: Not even close to most of the job, you're exactly right. JESSICA: Like you said, if you're sitting there for 5 hours by yourself, hunched over your computer, you're probably hacking on something dumb. MANDO: Right. [laughter] JESSICA: We had gotten off on a tangent somewhere without someone to be like, “Why are we doing this again?” MANDO: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. ANDREA: Well, and I think that that has been a personal challenge of mine as well. I know there was a really flashbulb moment for me. Scott and I have been running our business together for a couple of years. We had gotten on our first podcast and he was telling our origin story and he used the phrase, “Andrea, she's the non-technical founder.” When I heard it, I was like, “How dare you? I have for 2 years been sitting right next to you,” and then he said, “Well, that's the term you use to describe yourself all the time. We had been in a sales meeting right before I recorded that podcast and that's literally the words you use to introduce yourself. So once you start calling yourself technical, I'll follow suit.” JESSICA: Wow. ANDREA: It really made me think and I think some of it is because whenever I go to conferences, I don't look like other people who code especially 12 years ago. I don't talk like the people who are typically stereotypical developers and the first question I would get asked, probably 25 to 40% of the time from people I met were, “Hi! Are you technical, or non-technical?” JESSICA: Really? ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: Ugh. JESSICA: Huh. ANDREA: And that would be the first thing out of the gate. At the time, I didn't have the kind of mental awareness to go, “I'm at a technical conference. I think you can assume I'm technical.” The fact is I was scared to call myself technical and over the years, I'm just like, “What does that mean to be technical and why do we define people by you are either technical, or you have nothing?” Non-technical, you have zero technical skills, you don't belong. JESSICA: So after you had that conversation with Scott, did you switch to calling yourself technical? Did you change your language? ANDREA: It has been a journey. I became very conscious of not using non-technical. I'll sometimes then say like, “I struggle with syntax and I'm really, really good at these things.” When I phrase things that way, or “I have engineers who are so much better and have much deeper expertise in Docker and Kubernetes than I do. I'm really good at explaining the big picture and why this happens.” So it becomes, I think what we do in software is that because we're so used to thinking in binaries, because that's the way we need to make our code work—true/false, if/else, yes/no—and that pattern naturally extends itself into human relationships, too. Because I know that every single person who asked me that question in no way was trying to be rude, or shut me out. I know that the intention behind it was kind and trying to be inclusive. But from my perspective, when half the people walk up to you and go, “Do you belong here?” Then it's like, “I don't know. Do I belong here?” JESSICA: Yeah. ANDREA: So that's an example of how, if you're at a conference saying, “What brings you here?” That's very open-ended and then it gives everybody the chance to say what brings them here and there's no predefined, “Do you fit in this bucket, or that bucket? Are you part of us, or are you part of them?” JESSICA: It's open to surprise. ANDREA: Mm hm and I think that's something that I am really good at. That's my superpower is let's see the complexity and then let's see the patterns and let's figure out how we can all get good work done together. But you can't see the complexity unless you take a step back. JESSICA: Yeah, and yet Scott noticed that when you are thinking that way, you are thinking like a programmer. Because while software starts by getting us used to thinking in binaries—I should say programming. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: It's just thinking of binaries, as soon as you get up to software and software systems, you have to think in complexity. ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: And like you were saying, Andrea, I find myself nowadays better recognizing when I'm falling into that trap when I'm not talking about work stuff. When I find myself saying, “Well, it's this, or it's this.” It's like, “Is it really this, or this?” JESSICA: Are these the only options? ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: Yeah. Do I have to eat Thai food, or pizza tonight, or could I just eat ice cream, or a salad, or…? [laughs] ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: You know what I mean? It's a silly example, but I don't know, there's something about doing this for a while that I find that kind of this, or that thinking wiring itself into my brain. JESSICA: Yeah. ANDREA: Yeah. Well, and I think that that's normal and that's human. We operate on heuristics. There's the whole neurons that fire together wire together and if you're spending the majority of your time in this thought pattern, adopting something else can be a challenge. So to me, it's like trying to describe how the way I navigate the world in being able to name things well and being able to talk to new people, connect dots, see patterns that I rely on frameworks just as much as I do when I code and trying to figure out what are those things. What are those things? JESSICA: Yeah, because you don't have to import that top level file from the framework in order to use it. So it's not explicit that you're using it. ANDREA: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So that's been my challenge is that as Scott is like, “Well, help me understand.” I'm like, “I, uh. I don't know. I do this.” That was where I nailed on empathy as really critical and it's been fascinating because when I first started about 5 years writing and talking about empathy in software, the first thing I noticed were all the patterns. I was like, “A really well-written commit message, that's empathy.” That is taking the time to document your rationale so that it's easier for somebody behind you. Refactoring a method so that it's easy to read, deleting the dead code so that it's less burdensome, even logging. Looking at logging in C versus Ruby, it's night and day. JESSICA: Help messages. ANDREA: Yeah. There's a little moment. MANDO: Non-happy path decisions in code. Guardrails. All that stuff. ANDREA: Yeah. So I started thinking in terms of communication artifacts. All of these little things that we're producing are just artifacts of our thinking and you can't produce a communication artifact unless you are considering a perspective. What I noticed, of the perspective, is that a lot of software developers had been trained to take was that of the compiler. I want to make the compiler happy. I want to make the code work. That's a very specific practice of perspective taking that is useful if you're imagining okay, we don't have to get rid of that and we need to add the recognition that the perspectives taking needs to go the compiler into who will be interacting with what you're creating and that is on both the other side of the UI, if there is one, or working on the code that you've written maybe six months from now and that can be your future self. And then also, who will be impacted by the work that you create, because not everybody who is impacted by the decisions that you make will be directly interacting with and when I'm writing content, or that is the framework is getting to know the audiences really well, doing good qualitative research. So that's kind of the difference between the open-ended versus closed-ended questions. Then being able to perspective change and then along the way, there are little communication hacks, but just thinking about every single thing that you produce—and no, I have not come across a communication artifact, or a thing that is produced while coding that is not somehow rooted in empathy. JESSICA: Because it's communication and you can't communicate – [overtalk] ANDREA: It's all communication. JESSICA: At all without knowing what is going to be received and how that will be interpreted. ANDREA: Yeah. Similar to test-driven development, where we're framing things in terms of unit tests and just thinking about the test before we write the code. In the same way, we're thinking about the perspective of other people—we can still think of the compiler—and anchoring our decisions on how it will impact other people. JESSICA: It's making the compiler happy. That's just table stakes. That's absolute minimum. ANDREA: Yeah. Well, it's been fascinating because this part of this project. So I'm writing a book now, which is super exciting and by far, the hardest thing I've ever done. But one of the things that, because I'm curious, I'm like, “Why? How did we get here? How did we get here where, by all objective measures, I should have been able to go into computer science without a problem and feel like –?” JESSICA: Think of yourself as technical without a problem. ANDREA: Yeah. Why do I still struggle and why did we extract empathy out of this? So looking at the history of it has been fascinating because as the computer science industry grew, there was a moment in the mid-60s. There was a test, like a survey, that went out to just under 1,400 people called the Canon Perry vocational test for computer programmers. It was vocational satisfaction, I think. But it was measuring the satisfaction of programmers and they were trying assess what does a satisfied programmer look like. There were many, many problems with the methodology of this, including the people who they didn't define who a programmer was, the people self-defined. So it's like, if you felt like you were programmer, then you were a programmer, but there was no objective. Like, this is what a programmer is prior to selecting the audience, the survey respondents and then when they evaluated the results, they only used professional men. They didn't include any professional women in their comparison study. So the women in the study, there are illustrations and the women are not presented as professionals, they are presented as sex objects in a research paper. The scientific programmers, they're the ones who get the girl and she's all swooning. The business programmers are very clearly stated as less than and they're shy. The girl is like, “I don't want you.” JESSICA: That have like comics, or something? ANDREA: It was comics, yeah. They had like comic illustrations in there. Okay, it's a survey, what's the big deal? Well, from 1955 through the mid-90s, there was an aptitude test from IBM called the Programmer Aptitude Test, the PAT. In there, Walter McNamara from IBM, who created it, went out, had empathy, and was like, “Okay, let's talk to our customers, what does a good programmer look like,” and determined that logical reasoning was the number one attribute. Okay, sounds good. But then he said, “Well, if logical reasoning is the most important attitude, then we need to create a timed 1-hour math test.” What's interesting to me is that in that, there is a logical fallacy in and of itself, called a non-sequitur, [chuckles] where it's like all humans are mammals, bingo a mammal. Therefore, bingo is a human. That's an example of a non-sequitur. That's what happened where it was determined logical reasoning is important to computer science and programming. All mathematics is logical reasoning. Therefore, mathematics is the only way to measure the capability that somebody has for logical reasoning. That, saying, “Okay, we don't care about communication skills. We don't care about empathy. We don't care about any of that. Just are you good at math?” And then the PAT's study—I've been diving into the bowels of the ACM and looking at primary resource documents for the past several months—and there was an internal memo where Charles McNamara referred to the Canon Perry study in 1967 and said, “The PAT was given to 700,000 people last year and next year, we should incorporate these findings into the PAT,” and the PAT became the de facto way to get into computer science. So these are decisions that were made long before me and so, what you end up getting then – and then also in 1968, there was what's called, there was a NATO conference on software engineering and they said, “We really need to bring rigor into computer science. We need to make this very rigorous.” Again, there were no men at this conference. It was about standards and Grace Hopper wasn't even invited, even though she was like – [overtalk] JESSICA: There were no women in the conference. ANDREA: There were no women. JESSICA: No non-men. ANDREA: No non-men, yes. So you start to see stereotypes getting built and one of the stereotypes became, if you look like this and you are good at math, then you are good at programming. I'm very good at logical reasoning, but I struggle to do a time capsule. I have ADHD and that is something that's very, very, very challenging for me. So that coupled with and then you get advertising where it's marketed, too. MANDO: Yeah. ANDREA: So we need to undo all of this. We can recognize, okay, we can refactor all of this, but it takes recognizing the complexity and how did it all come to be and then changing it one thing at a time. CASEY: A lot of what you've just been talking about makes me think about Dungeons and Dragons and Skyrim for a little nerdy segue. ANDREA: Yeah. CASEY: You have skill trees. You could be a really, really good warrior, very good at math, very good at wielding your sword, and then if you measure how good you are at combat by how big your fireball spell can be, how many you can shoot, how accurate you are, you're missing that whole skill tree of ability, of power that you have. ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: What I find so fascinating is when I was going through the computer science program that I never finished and this was like a million years ago. When I was in college, there was a very specific logical reasoning class that you had to take as part of the CS program at UT. But it wasn't a math class, it was a philosophy class and I think that's pretty common that logistics studies fall under schools of philosophy, not the schools of mathematics. So it was really interesting to me that these dudes just completely missed the mark, right? [laughs] ANDREA: It is the definition of irony and not Alanis Morrissette kind of way, right? [chuckles] I think that's the thing it's like – and this isn't to say the Walter McNamara was a bad person like, we all make mistakes. But to me, again, this is about impact and if one, or two people can have the ability to create a test that impacts millions of people across generations to help them feel whether, or not they belong in even contributing to building software. Because I always felt like I was a user of software—I was always a superuser—but for some reason, I felt like the other side of the interface, the command line, it was like Oz. It was like that's where the wizards live and I'm not allowed there. It's like, how do we just tear down that curtain and say, “Y'all, there is no – no, this was all built on like false assumptions”? How do we have a retrospective and say, “When we can look at a variety of different perspectives, then we get such stronger products.” We get such stronger code. We minimize technical debt in addition to hopefully, staving off biases that get built into the software. I think it's very similar of human systems, very similar to software systems. It's like, how can we roll back? If we make a mistake and it impacts human systems, how can we fix that as fast as possible, rather than just letting things persist? JESSICA: When you're talking about who can be a good software developer, when you're talking about who is technical, who is valuable, you don't want rigor in that! ANDREA: Right!
 JESSICA: That's not appropriate. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: You want open questions. ANDREA: Yeah, and that is exactly what happened, was people conflate rigor and data with accuracy. There's a bias towards if it's got numbers behind it, it must be real, but you can manipulate data just as much as you can manipulate other things. So the PAT then said, “Okay, well, if you can't pass the PAT, then we'll create all of these other types of tests, so you could be a console operator, or you could be a data analyst.” What's fascinating is when you go back, the thing that was at the very bottom of the Cannon Perry survey, in terms of valuable development activities, was software maintenance. JESSICA: And that's everything now. ANDREA: Yeah!
 JESSICA: Back then, they didn't have a lot of software. MANDO: Yeah. JESSICA: They didn't have open source libraries. If they needed something, they wrote it. ANDREA: But the stereotypes persist. JESSICA: Yeah. MANDO: 100%. ANDREA: The first evidence I found, again, was in 1967. There was a study of 12 people, all of whom were trainees at a company, which that would be a wild – they hadn't even – [overtalk] JESSICA: So this is like even less than interviewing your grad students. ANDREA: Well, yeah. JESSICA: Or your undergrads for your graduate research paper, yes. ANDREA: They measured how quickly someone could solve a problem and they ranked them, and then they made the claim that you can save 25 times—this is the first myth of the 25x developer. Well, it got published in the ACM and then IBM picked it up and then McKinsey picked it up, and then it's just, you get the myth of the full-stack unicorn who's going to come in and save everything! What's interesting is all of these things go back and I think they were formed out of good intention in terms of understanding our world and we understand now, exactly like you said, Jess. That's not the right way to go about it because then people who are really needed on software teams don't feel like they belong and it's like, “Well, do you belong?” JESSICA: That's an outsized impact for such a tiny study. ANDREA: Yeah. So that gets me thinking, what kinds of things am I doing that might have an outside impact? JESSICA: And can we make that impact positive? ANDREA: Yeah, and when we find out that it wasn't, can we learn from our mistakes? I think one of the things, too, is taking the idea of as people are coding. It's like, “Well, who's actually going to read this?” That's something I hear a lot. I used to feel that way about all tags. I'm like, “Who actually reads all tags?” But then my friend, Taylor, was in a car accident and lost his vision. and he was like, “I absolutely need all tags,” and I'll tell you, that changed everything for me. Because it went from this abstract, “I have to check this box. I have to type something in, and describe this photo” to “I care about my friend Taylor and how can I make this experience as best for him as possible?” That is empathy because in order to have empathy, you have to connect with a single individual. Empathy is – and actually, when you do form empathy for a group, you get polarization. So empathy cuts both ways. It can be both very positive, but also very – [overtalk] CASEY: [inaudible] on the individual goes a long way. So for our discussion here, I can share an individual I've been talking to about this kind of problem. I have a friend who's a woman trying to get her first software developer role and she has to study how to hack the coding interview for a lot of the places where she wants to work, which is literally studying algorithms that you probably won't use in the job. I had an interview a few years ago that was the Google style algorithms interview for a frontend role. Frontend developers don't write algorithms, generally. Not unless you're working on the core of the framework maybe. It was completely irrelevant. I rejected them. I think they rejected me back, too probably. [laughter] But I wouldn't work there because of the hiring process. But my friend, who is a woman in tech trying to get in, doesn't have that kind of leeway to project. She wants to get her first job whoever it is – [overtalk] MANDO: She wants a job, yeah. CASEY: That is willing to use the bias system like that and to hack that system to study it specifically how to get around it, which isn't really helping anyone. ANDREA: Yeah. CASEY: So how can we help reform the system so she doesn't have to do that kind of thing and so, people like her don't have to, to get into tech? I don't know, my boycotting that one company is a very small impact; how do we get a company's hiring practices to change is a hard problem. ANDREA: It is a very hard problem. I can share what we are doing in Corgibytes to try to make a difference. I think the first thing is that in our hiring process, we have core values mapped to them and these are offshoots of our main core values, one of which is communication is just as important as code. So we have that every single applicant will get a response and that seems so like, duh, but the number of people who are here who are just ghosted, submit an application and it goes out into the ether. That is, in my opinion, disrespectful. We have an asynchronous screening interview, so it's an application and it's take your time, fill it out, and it's questions like, “What's an article you found interesting and why?” and “What do you love about modernizing legacy code?” Some people need that time to think and just to formulate an answer and so, taking some of that pressure off, and then at the end of our – we have all of our questions mapped to our core values. I'm still trying to figure out how we can get away from more the dreaded technical interviews, but we don't use the whiteboard, but we also have a core value of anything that someone does for us, in terms of whether they show up for an interview, they will walk away with just as much benefit. They will have an artifact of learning something, or spec work is I think, immoral to some of these core things. So we use Exercism for us, so Katrina Owens, as a way of like, “Okay, show us a language that you're like really familiar with.” And then because with what we do, you just get tossed into if it's like, “Okay, let's pick Scala.” It's like you've never tried functional programming before, but then just, it's more of seeing the mindset. Because I think it's challenging because we tried getting rid of them all together and we did have some challenges when it came to then client upper-level goals and doing the job. So it's a balance, I think and then at the end of our interviews doing retrospectives telling the candidate, “Here's what you did really well in this interview, here's where it didn't quite land for me,” because I think interviewing is hard and like you said, Casey, especially now post-COVID, I think more and more people have the power to leave jobs. So I think the power, especially in software development, for people who have had at least their first position, they have a lot more power to walk out the door than they did before. So as an employer and as somebody who's creating these, that's what I'm doing and then if we get feedback and the whole idea with empathy is you're never going to be able to be perfect. Because you don't have the data for the perspective of every single person, but being open and listening and when you do make mistakes, owning up to them, and fixing them as fast as possible. If we all did that, we can make a lot of progress on a lot of fronts really fast. CASEY: I'm so glad your company has those good hiring practices. You're really thinking about it, how to do it in a supportive, ethical, and equitable way. I wonder, we probably don't have the answer here today, but how can we get more companies to do that? I think you sharing here might help several companies, if their leadership are listening. and that's awesome. Spreading the message, talking about it more—that's one thing. Glad we're doing that. MANDO: Yeah. The place that I work at, we're about to start interviewing some folks and I really like the idea of having a retrospective with the candidate after maybe a couple of days, or whenever after the interview and taking the time, taking the 30 minutes or whatever, to sit down and say, “If I'm going to take time to reach out to them anyway and say, ‘You're moving on to the next round,' or ‘We have an offer for you, or not,' then I should be willing to sit down with them and explain why.'” ANDREA: Well, I think the benefit goes both ways, actually. We do it right in our interviews. So we actually say the last 15 minutes, we're going to set aside on perspectives. MANDO: Oh wow, okay. ANDREA: So we do and that's something that we prep for ahead of time. We get feedback of what went well [chuckles] and what we can do better and what we can change. MANDO: Yeah. ANDREA: Because otherwise, as an employer, it's like, I have no idea. I'm just kind of going off into the ether, but then I can hear from other people's perspectives and it's like, okay and then we can change things. But that's an example of, we think of employer versus employee and it's like that's another dichotomy. It's like no, we're all trying to get good work done. JESSICA: Andrea, how do you do performance reviews? ANDREA: We're still trying to crack that, but there's definitely a lot of positive psychology involved and what we are trying to foster is the idea of continuous performance, or continuous feedback is what we call it. So we definitely don't do any kind of forced ranking and that's a branch of things that have contributed to challenges. We have one-on-ones, we check in with people, but a lot of it, I think is asking people what they want to be doing, genuinely. As a small company, we're like 25 people. I think it's easier in a small company, but part of it is – and we were constantly doing this with ourselves, too. My business partner was like, “I really want to try to be the CEO. I've always wanted to be the CEO.” So I stepped back actually during COVID. We focus on being a really responsive team and so, then that way, it's less about the roles. It's less about rigidity. There's a really great book in terms of operations called Brave New Work by Aaron Dignan. It has a lot of operational principles around this. Team of Teams is another really good one. But just thinking through like, what's the work that needs to be done, how can we organize around it, and then thinking of it in terms of more of responsibilities instead of roles. JESSICA: I want to think of it as a relationship. It's like, I'm not judging you as a developer, instead we're evaluating the relationship of you in this position, in this role at this company. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: How is that serving the company? How is that serving you? ANDREA: Yes, and I think that's a big piece of it is – and also, recognizing the context is really important and trying to be as flexible as possible, but then also recognizing constraints. So there have been times where it's like, “This isn't working,” but trying to use radical candor as much as you can, that's something we've been working on. But trying to give feedback as early and as often as possible and making that a cultural norm as to the, “Oh, I get the 360 feedback at the end, twice a year,” like that. JESSICA: Yeah, I'm sorry, if you can't tell me anything within two weeks, don't bother. ANDREA: Yeah. But one example is like we've fostered this and as a leader, I want people who are going to tell me where I'm stepping in it and where I'm messing up. So I kind of use – [overtalk] JESSICA: Yeah, at least that retrospective at the end of the interview says that. ANDREA: Mm hm, but even with my staff, it's like – [overtalk] JESSICA: [inaudible] be able to say, “Hey, you didn't send me a Google Calendar invite,” and they'd be like, “Oh my gosh, we should totally be doing that.” Did anybody tell them that? No! ANDREA: Yeah, totally. So I don't claim to have the answers, but these are just little experiments that we're trying and I think we really lean on the idea of continuous improvement and marginal gains. Arthur Ash had a really great quote, “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.” I think that's the thing, the whole point of the empathy during development framework is that if you're a developer working on the backend writing a nice commit message, or giving quality feedback on a pull request, instead of just a “Thumbs up, looks good to me.” That's a small act of empathy that you can start doing right away. You don't need to run it by anybody, really, hopefully. If you do, that's a problem [chuckles] your manager and we've seen that. But there are small ways that you can be empowered and leaning into those small moments, doing it again and again, and then creating opportunities to listen. Because empathy, I think the other thing is that people tend to think that it's a psychic ability. You're either data, or your Deanna Troi. CASEY: Jamil Zaki, right? ANDREA: Yeah, the Roddenberry effect. Jamil Zaki, out in Stanford, coined that. I think that's the thing; I've always been told I'm an empath, but I don't think it's telepathy. I think it's just I've gotten really good at spotting patterns and facial recognitions as opposed to Sky. He can just glance and go, “Oh, you're missing a semicolon here.” That is the same skill, it's just in a different context. CASEY: I love that parallel. JESSICA: Yeah. CASEY: Recognizing small things in facial expressions is like noticing missing semicolons. M: Mm hm. [laughs] CASEY: That's so powerful. That's so vivid for me. MANDO: Yeah. Going back, that made what something that you said earlier, Andrea really click for me, which is that so many people who are professional software developers have this very well-developed sense of empathy for the compiler. [laughs] ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: Right, so it's not that they're not empathetic. ANDREA: Yes! MANDO: They have learned over their career to be extremely empathetic, it's just for their computer. In the same way, you can learn to be empathetic towards your other teams, towards your DevOps group, towards the salespeople, towards anybody. ANDREA: The flip side of your non-technical is you're not good with people because Scott got this all the time. He's like, “You're good with machines, but you're not good with people.” When he told me that, I was like, “I've known you since we were 11, you're incredibly kind. I don't understand.” So in some ways, my early journey here, I didn't come with all the baggage and so, there is this, like, this industry is weird. [laughs] How can we unpack some of this stuff? Because I don't know, this feels a little odd. That's an example and I think it's exactly that it's cultural conditioning and it's from this, “You're good with math, but we don't want you to be good with people.” If you're good with people, that's actually a liability. That was one of the things that came out of the testing of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s. MANDO: I can't wait till this book of yours comes out because I'm so curious to read the basis of all these myths that we have unconsciously been perpetuating for years and I don't know why, but there is this myth, there are these myths. Like, if you're technical, you're not good with people and you're not – you know what I mean? It's like, I can't wait to read it. ANDREA: You can go to empathyintech.com. You can sign up for the newsletter and we don't email very often. But Casey actually helps me run a Discord channel, too, or Discord server. So there's folks where we're having these conversations and it doesn't matter what your role is at all. MANDO: Yeah. ANDREA: Just let's start talking to each other. JESSICA: Andrea, that's beautiful. Thank you. That makes this a great time to move to reflections. At the end of each episode, we each get to do a reflection of something that stood out to us and you get to go last. ANDREA: Awesome. MANDO: I can go first. I've got one. The idea that empathy is being able to view and identify other perspectives is one that is something that I'm going to take away from this episode. I spent a lot of my career as a software developer and spent another good chunk of my career as someone who worked in operations and DevOps and admin kind of stuff. There's this historic and perpetual tug of war between the two and a lot of my career as a systems administrator was spent sitting down and trying to explain to software engineers why they couldn't do this, or why this GraphQL query was causing the database to explode for 4 hours every night and we couldn't live like that anymore. Stuff like that. To my shame, often, I would default to [laughs] this idea that these software engineers are just idiots and that wasn't the case at all. Well, probably [laughs] not the case at all. Almost always it wasn't the case at all. Anyway, but the truth of the situation is probably much closer to the idea that their perspective was tied specifically to the compiler and to the feature that they're trying to implement for their product manager, for customer X, or whatever. And they didn't have either the resources, or the experience, or the expertise, or whatever that was required to add on the perspective of the backend systems that they were interacting with. So maybe in the future, a better way to address these kinds of situations would be to talk about things in terms of perspective and not idiocy, I guess, is the… ANDREA: Yeah, a really powerful question there is what's your biggest pain point and how can I help you alleviate it? It's a really great way to learn what somebody's perspective is to get on the same page. MANDO: Yeah, like a lot. JESSICA: Nice. I noticed the part about how a lot of the help happens when you have empathy for the individuals who aren't on a happy path, who aren't the great majority of the people using the software, or the requests that come through your software. It's like that parable, there's a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray and the shepherd is going to leave the ninety-nine—who are fine, they're on the happy path, they're good—and go help the one. Because some other day, it's going to be another sheep that's off the happy path and that one's going to need help and that's about it. MANDO: Yeah. Today you, tomorrow me, right? That's how all this works. CASEY: The thing I'd been picking up is about feedback. Like, the best way to develop empathy for someone else is to get feedback, to get their perspective somehow. I've done retros at the ends of meetings, all the meetings at work I ever do. I even do them at the end of a Pomodoro session. A 25-minute timer in the middle of a pairing day, I'll do them every Pomodoro. “Anything to check in on? No? Good. Okay.” As long as we do. But I've never thought to do it during the interview process. That is surprising to me. MANDO: Yeah. CASEY: I don't know if I can get away with it everywhere. The government might not like it if I did that to their formal process. [laughter] Maybe I can get away with, but it's something I'll think about trying. I would like feedback and they would like feedback—win-win. MANDO: Yeah, I've never done it either and it makes perfect sense. I have a portion, unfortunately, in my interviews where I say right at the beginning, “This is what's going to happen in the interview,” and I spend 5 minutes going through and explaining, we're going to talk about this, we're going to talk about that, or just normal signposting for the interview. It never once has occurred to me to at the end, say, “Okay, this is what we did. Why don't you give me some feedback on that and I give you some feedback about you?” That makes sense. ANDREA: Awesome. For me, I have been wanting to come on your show for a really long time. I was telling Casey. [chuckles] JESSICA: Ah! ANDREA: I was like, “I love the mission of expanding the idea of what coding is.” So I just feel very honored because for the longest time, I was like, “I wonder if I'm going to be cool enough one day to –” [laughs] JESSICA: Ah! We should have invited you a long time ago. ANDREA: Yeah. So there's a little bit of fangirling going on and I really appreciate the opportunity to just dive a little bit deep, reflect, and think. As somebody who doesn't mold, it's nice to get validation sometimes that the way I'm thinking is valuable to some people. So it gives me motivation to keep going. JESSICA: Yeah. It's nice when you spend a lot of energy, trying to care about what other people care about, to know that other people also care about this thing that you care about. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: Thank you so much for joining us. ANDREA: Thank you for having me! MANDO: Thank you. ANDREA: The fastest way to reach out to me and make sure that I see it is actually to go to corgibytes.com. Corgi like the dog, bytes, B-Y-T-E-S, .com and send an email on the webform because then that way, it'll get pushed up to me. But I struggle with email a lot right now and I'm on Twitter sporadically and I'm also on – MANDO: That's good. The best way to do that. ANDREA: I am a longform writer. I'm actually really excited that I have a 100,000 words to explain myself. I do not operate well in the 140-character kind of world, but I'm on there and also, on LinkedIn. And then the book website is empathyintech.com and there's a link to the Discord channel and some deeper articles that I've written about exactly what empathy in tech is and what empathy driven development is. I'm writing it with my friend, Carmen Shirkey Collins, who is another copywriter who is now in tech over at Cisco, and it's been a joy to be on a journey with her because she's super smart and has great background in perspective, too. JESSICA: And if you want to work on meaningful, impactful legacy code in ensembles, check out Corgibytes. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: And if you want to talk to all of us, you can join our Greater Than Code Slack by donating anything at all to our Greater Than Code Patreon at patreon.com/greaterthancode. Thank you, everyone and see you next time! Special Guest: Andrea Goulet.

Todd: OK, Jessica, we are going to talk about cooking.Jessica: OK.Todd: Now, you like to cook!Jessica: Yes.Todd: OK. What can you cook?Jessica: I can cook Manicotti, Tacos, lots of food.Todd: OK. So what is Manicotti?Jessica: Manicotti is...it's a big noodle. It's hollow on the inside and you fill it with different cheeses and then you put red tomato sauce over the top of it and..it's pretty goodTodd: So how do you make it?Jessica: Well, you use Ricotta cheese, Mozzarella cheese, um , Parmesan Cheese,a little bit of salt, and basil and stuff and you mix it all together in a pot and then you stuff it in the noodle, and you put the noodle in the pan and shove it in the oven for 35 minutes and let it cook.Todd: Yeah!Jessica: And it's good.Todd: That sounds really good. How often do you make manicotti?Jessica: Oh, a couple times a month, probably.Todd: What is the secret to good manicotti?Jessica: You got to make it tasty, cause if you add enough salt or Parmesan cheese then it doesn't taste as good.It just tastes like your eating cheese. That's it.Todd: OK. Well I'll remember that. Thanks a lot Jessica.Jessica: You're welcome.

Todd: OK, Jessica, we are going to talk about cooking.Jessica: OK.Todd: Now, you like to cook!Jessica: Yes.Todd: OK. What can you cook?Jessica: I can cook Manicotti, Tacos, lots of food.Todd: OK. So what is Manicotti?Jessica: Manicotti is...it's a big noodle. It's hollow on the inside and you fill it with different cheeses and then you put red tomato sauce over the top of it and..it's pretty goodTodd: So how do you make it?Jessica: Well, you use Ricotta cheese, Mozzarella cheese, um , Parmesan Cheese,a little bit of salt, and basil and stuff and you mix it all together in a pot and then you stuff it in the noodle, and you put the noodle in the pan and shove it in the oven for 35 minutes and let it cook.Todd: Yeah!Jessica: And it's good.Todd: That sounds really good. How often do you make manicotti?Jessica: Oh, a couple times a month, probably.Todd: What is the secret to good manicotti?Jessica: You got to make it tasty, cause if you add enough salt or Parmesan cheese then it doesn't taste as good.It just tastes like your eating cheese. That's it.Todd: OK. Well I'll remember that. Thanks a lot Jessica.Jessica: You're welcome.

02:13 - Michael’s Superpower: Being Able to Creatively Digest and Reconstruct Categories * Integral Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_theory_(Ken_Wilber)) * Creative Deconstruction – Michael Schwartz (https://ideas.repec.org/f/psc306.html) * Creating Truly Novel Categories – Recognizing Novelty as Novelty 09:39 - Recognizing Economic Value of Talents & Abilities * Invisible Labor * Ecosystem Services * Biodiversity; The Diversity Bonus by Scott Page (https://www.amazon.com/Diversity-Bonus-Knowledge-Compelling-Interests/dp/0691176884) 18:49 - The Edge of Chaos; Chaos Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory) * “Life exists at the edge of chaos.” 23:23 - Reproducibility Crisis and Context-Dependent Insight 28:49 - What constitutes a scientific experiment? * Missed Externalities * Scholarly articles for Michelle Girvan "reservoir computing" (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Michelle+Girvan+reservoir+computing&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart) * Non-conformity 38:03 - The Return of Civil Society and Community Relationships; Scale Theory * Legitimation Crisis by Juergen Habermas (https://www.amazon.com/Legitimation-Crisis-Juergen-Habermas/dp/0807015210) * Scale: The Universal Laws of Life and Death in Organisms, Cities and Companies by Geoffrey West (https://www.amazon.com/Scale-Universal-Organisms-Cities-Companies-ebook/dp/B010P7Z8J0) 49:28 - Fractal Geometry More amazing resources from Michael to check out: Michael Garfield: Improvising Out of Algorithmic Isolation (https://blog.usejournal.com/improvising-out-of-algorithmic-isolation-7ef1a5b94697?gi=e731ad1488b2) Michael Garfield: We Will Fight Diseases of Our Networks By Realizing We Are Networks (https://michaelgarfield.medium.com/we-will-fight-diseases-of-our-networks-by-realizing-we-are-networks-7fa1e1c24444) Reflections: Jacob: Some of the best ideas, tv shows, music, etc. are the kinds of things that there’s not going to be an established container. Rein: “Act always so as to increase the number of choices.” ~ Heinz von Foerster Jessica: Externality. Recognize that there’s going to be surprises and find them. Michael: Adaptability is efficiency aggregated over a longer timescale. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: JACOB: Hello and welcome to Episode 234 of Greater Than Code. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I’m joined with my co-panelist, Rein Henrichs. REIN: Thanks, Jacob and I’m here with my friend and co-panelist, Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Rein and today, I’m excited to introduce our guest, Michael Garfield. He’s an artist and philosopher and he helps people navigate our age of accelerating weirdness and cultivate the curiosity and play we need to thrive. He hosts and produces two podcasts, The Future Fossils Podcast & The Santa Fe Institute's Complexity Podcast. Yay, complexity! Michael acts as interlocutor for a worldwide community of artists, scientists, and philosophers—a practice that feeds his synthetic and transdisciplinary “mind-jazz” performances in the form of essay, avant-guitar music, and painting! You can find him on Bandcamp, it’s pretty cool. Refusing to be enslaved by a single perspective, creative medium, or intellectual community, Michael walks through the walls between academia and festival culture, theory and practice. Michael, welcome to Greater Than Code! MICHAEL: Thanks! I’m glad to be here and I hope that I provide a refreshingly different guest experience for listeners being not a coder in any kind of traditional sense. JESSICA: Yet you’re definitely involved in technology. MICHAEL: Yeah, and I think the epistemic framing of programming and algorithms is something that can be applied with no understanding of programming languages as they are currently widely understood. It’s just like design is coding, design of the built environment, so. JESSICA: And coding is a design. MICHAEL: Indeed. JESSICA: Okay, before we go anywhere else, I did not prepare you for this, but we have one question that we ask all of our guests. What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? MICHAEL: I would like believe that I have a superpower in being able to creatively digest and reconstruct categories so as to drive new associations between them for people and I feel like I developed that studying integral theory in grad school. I did some work under Sean Esbjörn-Hargens at John F. Kennedy University looking at the work of and work adjacent to Ken Wilber, who was trying to come up with a metatheoretical framework to integrate all different domains of human knowledge. All different types of inquiry into a single framework that doesn't attempt to reduce any one of them to any other and then in that process, I learned what one of my professors, Michael Schwartz, called creative deconstruction. So showing how art can be science and science can be art and that these aren't ontologically fixed categories that exist external to us. Looking at the relationship between science as a practice and spiritual inquiry as a practice and that kind of thing. So it's an irreverent attitude toward the categories that we've constructed that takes in a way a cynical and pragmatic approach to the way that we define things in our world. You know. REIN: Kant was wrong. [laughs] MICHAEL: It's good to get out of the rut. Obviously, you’ve got to be careful because all of these ideas have histories and so you have to decide whether it's worth trying to redefine something for people in order to open up new possibilities in the way that these ideas can be understood and manipulated. It's not, for example, an easy task to try and get people to change their idea about what religion is. [laughs] JESSICA: Yeah. More than redefined. It's almost like undefined. MICHAEL: Hm. Like Paul Tillich, for example. Theologian Paul Tillich said that religion is ultimate concern. So someone can have a religion of money, or a religion of sex, but if you get into these, if you try to interpose that in a debate on intelligent design versus evolutionary theory, you'll get attacked by both sides. JESSICA: [chuckles] That’s cosmology. MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's like – [overtalk] JESSICA: Which is hard to [inaudible] of money, or sex. MICHAEL: Yeah, but people do it anyhow. JESSICA: [laughs] Yeah. So deconstructing categories and seeing in-between things that fits through your walking through walls, what categories are you deconstructing and seeing between lately? MICHAEL: Well, I don't know, lately I've been paying more attention to the not so much tilting after the windmills of this metamorphic attitude towards categories, but looking at the way that when the opportunity comes to create a truly novel category, what are the forces in play that prevent that, that prevent recognizing novelty as novelty that I just – JESSICA: Do you have any examples? MICHAEL: Yeah, well, I just saw a really excellent talk by UC Berkeley Professor Doug Guilbeault, I think is how you say his name. I am happy to link his work to you all in the chat here so that you can share it. JESSICA: Yeah, we’ll link that in the show notes. MICHAEL: He studies category formation and he was explaining how most of the research that's been done on convergent categorization is done on established categories. But what happens when you discover something truly new? What his research shows is that basically the larger the population, the more likely it is that these categories will converge on something that's an existing category and he compared it to island versus mainland population biogeography. So there's a known dynamic in evolutionary science where genetic drift, which is just this random component of the change in allele frequencies in a population, the larger the population, the less likely it is that a genetic mutation that is otherwise neutral is going to actually percolate out into the population. On an island, you might get these otherwise neutral mutations that actually take root and saturate an entire community, but on the mainland, they get lost in the noise. You can look at this in terms of how easy it is for an innovative, artistic, or musical act to actually find any purchase. Like Spotify bought the data analysis company, The Echo Nest, back in 2015 and they ran this study on where emergent musical talent comes from. It comes from places like Australia, the UK, and Iceland, because the networks are small enough. This is a finding that's repeated endlessly through studies of how to create a viral meme that basically, or another way – JESSICA: You mean a small enough pool to take hold? MICHAEL: Yeah. That basically big science and large social networks online and these other attempts, anywhere we look at this economies of scale, growing a given system, what happens is—and we were talking about this a little before we got on the call—as a system scales, it becomes less innovative. There's less energy is allocated to – JESSICA: In America? MICHAEL: Yeah. Bureaucratic overhead, latencies in the network that prevent the large networks from adapting, with the same agility to novel challenges. There's a lot of different ways to think about this and talk about this, but it basically amounts to, if you want to, you can't do it from the conservative core of an organization. You can't do it from the board of directors. JESSICA: Oh. MICHAEL: You have to go out onto – like why did they call it fringe physics? It's like, it is because it's on the fringe and so there's a kind of – JESSICA: So this would be like if you have like one remarkably lowercase agile team inside your enterprise, one team is innovating and development practices. They're going to get mushed out. Whereas, if you have one team innovating like that in a small company, it might spread and it might become dominant. MICHAEL: Yeah. I think it's certainly the case that this speaks to something I've been wondering about it in a broader sense, which is how do we recognize the economic value of talents and abilities that are like, how do we recognize a singular individual for their incompressible knowledge and expertise when they don't go through established systems of accreditation like getting a PhD? Because the academic system is such that basically, if you have an innovative contribution, but you don't have the credentials that are required to participate in the community of peer review, then people can't even – your contribution is just invisible. The same is true for how long it took, if you look at economic models, it took so long for economic models to even begin to start addressing the invisible labor of women in at home like domestic labor, or what we're now calling ecosystem services. So there's this question of – I should add that I'm ambivalent about this question because I'm afraid that answering it in an effective way, how do we make all of these things economically visible would just accelerate the rate at which the capitalist machine is capable of co-opting and exploiting all of these. [chuckles] REIN: Yeah. You also have this Scott Seeing Like a State thing where in order to be able to even perceive that that stuff is going on, it has to become standardized and you can't dissect the bird to observe its song, right? MICHAEL: Totally. So obviously, it took almost no time at all for consumer culture to commodify the psychedelic experience and start using to co-opt this psychedelic aesthetic and start using it in advertising campaigns for Levi's Jeans and Campbell Soup and that kind of thing. So it’s this question of a moving frontier that as soon as you have the language to talk about it, it's not the ineffable anymore. REIN: Yeah. MICHAEL: There's a value to the ineffable and there's a value to – it's related to this question of the exploitation of indigenous peoples by large pharmaceutical companies like, their ethnobotanical knowledge. How do you make the potential value of biodiversity, something that can be manufactured into medicine at scale, without destroying the rainforest and the people who live in it? Everywhere I look, I see this question. So for me, lately, it's been less about how do we creatively deconstruct the categories we have so much as it is, what is the utility of not knowing how to categorize something at all and then how do we fix the skewed incentive structures in society so as to value that which we currently do not know how to value. JESSICA: Because you don’t have a category for it. MICHAEL: Right. Like right now, maybe one of the best examples, even though this is the worst example in another way, is that a large fraction of the human genome has been patented by Monsanto, even though it has no known current biomedical utility. This is what Lewis Hyde in his book, Common as Air, called “the third enclosure” of the common. So you have the enclosure of the land that everyone used to be able to hunt on and then you have the enclosure of intellectual property in terms of patents for known utilities, known applications, and then over the last few decades, you're starting to see large companies buy their way into and defend patents for the things that actually don't – it's speculative. They're just gambling on the idea that eventually we'll have some use for this and that it's worth lawyering up to defend that potential future use. But it's akin to recognizing that we need to fund translational work. We need to fund synthesis. We need to fund blue sky interdisciplinary research for which we don't have an expected return on investment here because there's – JESSICA: It's one of those things that it’s going to help; you're going to get tremendous benefits out of it, but you can't say which ones. MICHAEL: Right. It's a shift perhaps akin to the move that I'm seeing conservation biology make right now from “let's preserve this charismatic species” to “let's do everything we can to restore biodiversity” rather than that biodiversity itself is generative and should be valued in its own regard so diverse research teams, diverse workplace teams. We know that there is what University of Michigan Professor Scott Page calls the diversity bonus and you don't need to know and in fact, you cannot know what the bonus is upfront. JESSICA: Yeah. You can't draw the line of causality forward to the benefit because the point of diversity is that you get benefits you never thought of. MICHAEL: Exactly. Again, this gets into this question of as a science communications staffer in a position where I'm constantly in this weird dissonant enters zone between the elite researchers at the Santa Fe Institute where I work and the community of complex systems enthusiasts that have grown up around this organization. It's a complete mismatch in scale between this org that has basically insulated itself so as to preserve the island of innovation that is required for really groundbreaking research, but then also, they have this reputation that far outstrips their ability to actually respond to people that are one step further out on the fringe from them. So I find myself asking, historically SFI was founded by Los Alamos National Laboratory physicists mostly that were disenchanted with the idea that they were going to have to research science, that their science was limited to that which could be basically argued as a national defense initiative and they just wanted to think about the deepest mysteries of the cosmos. So what is to SFI as SFI as to Los Alamos? Even in really radical organizations, there's a point at which they've matured and there are questions that are beyond the horizon of that which a particular community is willing to indulge. I find, in general, I'm really fascinated by questions about the nonlinearity of time, or about weird ontology. I'm currently talking to about a dozen other academics and para-academics about how to try and – I'm working, or helping to organize a working group of people that can apply rigorous academic approaches to asking questions that are completely taboo inside of academia. Questions that challenge some of the most fundamental assumptions of maternity, such as there being a distinction between self and other, or the idea that there are things that are fundamentally inaccessible to quantitative research. These kinds of things like, how do we make space for that kind of inquiry when there's absolutely no way to argue it in terms of you should fund this? And that's not just for money, that's also for attention because the demands on the time and attention of academics are so intense that even if they have interest in this stuff, they don't have the freedom to pursue it in their careers. That's just one of many areas where I find that this kind of line of inquiry manifesting right now. REIN: Reminds me a lot of this model of the edge of chaos that came from Packard and Langton back in the late 70s. Came out of chaos theory, this idea that there's this liminal transitionary zone between stability and chaos and that this is the boiling zone where self-organization happens and innovation happens. But also, that this zone is itself not static; it gets pushed around by other forces. MICHAEL: Yeah, and that's where life is and that was Langton's point, that life exists at the edge of chaos that it's right there at the phase transition boundary between what is it that separates a stone from a raging bonfire, or there’s the Goldilocks Zone kind of question. Yeah, totally. REIN: And these places that were at the edge of chaos that were innovative can ossify, they can move into the zone of stability. It's not so much that they move it's that, I don't know, maybe it's both. Where the frontier is, is constantly in motion. MICHAEL: Yeah, and to that point again, I tend to think about these things in a topographical, or geographical sense, where the island is growing, we're sitting on a volcano, and there's lots you can do with that metaphor. Obviously, it doesn't make sense. You can't build your house inside the volcano, right? [laughs] But you want to be close enough to be able to watch and describe as new land erupts, but at a safe distance. Where is that sweet spot where you have rigor and you have support, but you're not trapped within a bureaucracy, or an ossified set of institutional conventions? JESSICA: Or if the island is going up, if the earth is moving the island up until the coastline keeps expanding outward, and you built your house right on the beach. As in you’ve got into React when it was the new hotness and you learned all about it and you became the expert and then you had this great house on the beach, and now you have a great house in the middle of town because the frontier, the hotness has moved on as our massive technology has increased and the island raises up. I mean, you can't both identify as being on the edge and identify with any single category of knowledge. MICHAEL: Yeah. It's tricky. I saw Nora Bateson talking about this on Twitter recently. She's someone who I love for her subversiveness. Her father, Gregory Bateson, was a major player in the articulation of cybernetics and she's awesome in that sense of, I don't know, the minister's daughter kind of a way of being extremely well-versed in complex systems thinking and yet also aware that there's a subtle reductionism that comes in that misses – JESSICA: Misses from? MICHAEL: Well, that comes at like we think about systems thinking as it's not reductionist because it's not trying to explain biology in terms of the interactions of atoms. It acknowledges that there's genuine emergence that happens at each of these levels and yet, to articulate that, one of the things that happens is everything has to be squashed into numbers and so it’s like this issue of how do you quantify something. JESSICA: It's not real, if you can't measure it in numbers. MICHAEL: Right and that belies this bias towards thinking that because you can't quantify something now means it can't be quantified. JESSICA: You can’t predict which way the flame is going to go in the fire. That doesn't mean the fire doesn't burn. [chuckles] MICHAEL: Right. So she's interesting because she talks about warm data as this terrain, or this experience where we don't know how to talk about it yet, but that's actually what makes it so juicy and meaningful and instructive and – JESSICA: As opposed to taking it out of context. Leave it in context, even though we don't know how to do some magical analysis on it there. MICHAEL: Right, and I think this starts to generate some meaningful insights into the problem of the reproducibility crisis. Just as an example, I think science is generally moving towards context dependent insight and away from – even at the Santa Fe Institute, nobody's looking for a single unifying theory of everything anymore. It's far more illuminating, useful, and rigorous to look at how different models are practical given different applications. I remember in college there's half a dozen major different ways to define a biological species and I was supposed to get up in front of a class and argue for one over the other five. I was like, “This is preposterous.” Concretely, pun kind of intended, Biosphere 2, which was this project that I know the folks here at Synergia Ranch in Santa Fe at the Institute of Ecotechnics, who were responsible for creating this unbelievable historic effort to miniaturize the entire biosphere inside of a building. They had a coral reef and a rainforest and a Savannah and a cloud desert, like the Atacama, and there was one other, I forget. But it was intended as a kind of open-ended ecological experiment that was supposed to iterate a 100 times, or 50 times over a 100 years. They didn't know what they were looking for; they just wanted to gather data and then continue these 2-year enclosures where a team of people were living inside this building and trying to reproduce the entire earth biosphere in miniature. So that first enclosure is remembered historically as a failure because they miscalculated the rate at which they would be producing carbon dioxide and they ended up having to open the building and let in fresh air and import resource. JESSICA: So they learned something? MICHAEL: Right, they learned something. But that project was funded by Ed Bass, who in 1994, I think called in hostile corporate takeover expert, Steve Bannon to force to go in there with a federal team and basically issue a restraining order on these people and forcibly evict them from the experiment that they had created. Because it was seen as an embarrassment, because they had been spun in this way in international media as being uncredentialed artists, rather than scientists who really should not have the keys to this thing. It was one of these instances where people regard this as a scientific failure and yet when you look at the way so much of science is being practiced now, be it in the domains of complex systems, or in machine learning, what they were doing was easily like 20 or 30 years ahead of its time. JESSICA: Well, no wonder they didn’t appreciate it. MICHAEL: [chuckles] Exactly. So it's like, they went in not knowing what they were going to get out of it, but there was this tragic mismatch between the logic of Ed Bass’ billionaire family about what it means to have a return on an investment and the logic of ecological engineering where you're just poking at a system to see what will happen and you don't even know where to set the controls yet. So anyway. JESSICA: And it got too big. You talked about the media, it got too widely disseminated and became embarrassed because it wasn't on an island. It wasn't in a place where the genetic drift can become normal. MICHAEL: Right. It was suddenly subject to the constraints imposed upon it in terms of the way that people were being taught science in public school in the 1980s that this is what the scientific method is. You start with a hypothesis and it's like what if your – JESSICA: Which are not standards that are relevant to that situation. MICHAEL: Exactly. And honestly, the same thing applies to other computational forms of science. It took a long time for the techniques pioneered at the Santa Fe Institute to be regarded as legitimate. I'm thinking of cellular automata, agent-based modeling, and computer simulation generally. Steven Wolfram did a huge service, in some sense, to the normalization of those things in publishing A New Kind of Science, that massive book in whatever it was, 2004, or something where he said, “Look, we can run algorithmic experiments,” and that's different from the science that you're familiar with, but it's also setting aside for a moment, the attribution failure that that book is and acknowledging who actually pioneered A New Kind of Science. [chuckles] JESSICA: At least it got some information out. MICHAEL: Right. At least it managed to shift the goalpost in terms of what the expectations are; what constitutes a scientific experiment in the first place. JESSICA: So it shifted categories. MICHAEL: Yeah. So I think about, for example, a research that was done on plant growth in a basement. I forget who it was that did this. I think I heard this from, it was either Doug Rushkoff, or Charles Eisenstein that was talking about this, where you got two completely different results and they couldn't figure out what was going on. And then they realized that it was at different moments in the lunar cycle and that it didn't matter if you put your plant experiment in a basement and lit everything with artificial bulbs and all this stuff. Rather than sunlight, rather than clean air, if you could control for everything, but that there's always a context outside of your context. So this notion that no matter how cleverly you try to frame your model, that when it comes time to actually experiment on these things in the real world, that there's always going to be some extra analogy you've missed and that this has real serious and grave implications in terms of our economic models, because there will always be someone that's falling through the cracks. How do we actually account for all of the stakeholders in conversations about the ecological cost of dropping a new factory over here, for example? It's only recently that people, anywhere in the modern world, are starting to think about granting ecosystems legal protections as entities befitting of personhood and this kind of thing. JESSICA: Haven’t we copyrighted those yet? MICHAEL: [laughs] So all of that, there's plenty of places to go from there, I'm sure. REIN: Well, this does remind me of one of the things that Stafford Beer tried was he said, “Ponds are viable systems, they’re ecologies, they're adaptive, they're self-sustaining. Instead of trying to model how a pond works, what if we just hook the inputs of the business process into the pond and then hook the adaptions made by the pond as the output back into the business process and use the pond as the controlling system without trying to understand what makes a pond good at adapting?” That is so outside of the box and it blows my mind that he was doing this, well, I guess it was the 60s, or whatever, but this goes well beyond black boxing, right? MICHAEL: Yeah. So there's kind of a related insight that I saw Michelle Girvan gave at Santa Fe Institute community lecture a few years ago on reservoir computing, which maybe most of your audience is familiar with, but just for the sake of it, this is joining a machine learning system to a source of analog chaos, basically. So putting a computer on a bucket of water and then just kicking the bucket, every once in a while, to generate waves so that you're feeding chaos into the output of the machine learning algorithm to prevent overfitting. Again, and again, and again, you see this value where this is apparently the evolutionary value of play and possibly also, of dreaming. There's a lot of good research on both of these areas right now that learning systems are all basically hill climbing algorithms that need to be periodically disrupted from climbing the wrong local optimum. So in reservoir computing, by adding a source of natural chaos to their weather prediction algorithms, they were able to double the horizon at which they were able to forecast meteorological events past the mathematic limit that had been proven and established for this. That is like, we live in a noisy world. JESSICA: Oh, yeah. Just because it’s provably impossible doesn't mean we can't do something that's effectively the same thing, that's close enough. MICHAEL: Right. Actually, in that example, I think that there's a strong argument for the value of that which we can't understand. [laughs] It's like it's actually important. So much has been written about the value of Slack, of dreaming, of taking a long walk, of daydreaming, letting your mind wander to scientific discovery. So this is where great innovations come from is like, “I'm going to sleep on it,” or “I'm going to go on vacation.” Just getting stuck on an idea, getting fixated on a problem, we actually tend to foreclose on the possibility of answering that problem entirely. Actually, there's a good reason to – I think this is why Silicon Valley has recognized the instrumental value of microdosing, incidentally. [laughs] That this is that you actually want to inject a little noise into your algorithm and knock yourself off the false peak that you've stranded yourself on. JESSICA: Because if you aim for predictability and consistency, if you insist on reasonableness, you'll miss everything interesting. MICHAEL: Or another good way to put it is what is it, reasonable women don't make history. [laughs] There is actually a place for the – JESSICA: You don’t change the system by maximally conforming. MICHAEL: Right. JESSICA: If there is a place for… MICHAEL: It’s just, there is a place for non-conformity and it's a thing where it's like, I really hope and I have some optimism that what we'll see, by the time my daughter is old enough to join the workforce, is that we'll see a move in this direction where non-conformity has been integrated somehow into our understanding of how to run a business that we actively seek out people that are capable of doing this. For the same reason that we saw over the 20th century, we saw a movement from one size fits all manufacturing to design your own Nike shoes. There's this much more bespoke approach. JESSICA: Oh, I love those. MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's like we know that if we can tailor our systems so that they can adapt across multiple different scales, that they're not exploiting economies of scale that ultimately slash the redundancy that allows an organization to adapt to risk. That if we can find a way to actually generate a kind of a fractal structure in the governance of organizations in the way that we have reflexes. The body already does this, you don't have to sit there and think about everything you do and if you did, you’d die right away. JESSICA: [laughs] Yeah. REIN: Yeah. MICHAEL: If you had to pass every single twitch all the way up the chain to your frontal cortex JESSICA: If we had to put breathe on the list. [laughs] MICHAEL: Right. If you had to sit there and approve every single heartbeat, you'd be so dead. [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh my gosh, yeah. That's an energy allocation and it all needs to go through you so that you can have control. REIN: I just wanted to mention, that reminded me of a thing that Klaus Krippendorff, who's a cybernetics guy, said that there is virtue in the act of delegating one's agency to trustworthy systems. We're talking, but I don't need to care about how the packets get from my machine to yours and I don't want to care about that, but there's a trade-off here where people find that when they surrender their agency, that this can be oppressive. So how do we find this trade-off? MICHAEL: So just to anchor it again in something that I find really helpful. Thinking about the way that convenience draws people into these compacts, with the market and with the state. You look over the last several hundred years, or thousand years in the West and you see more and more of what used to be taken for granted as the extent in terms of the functions that are performed by the extended family, or by the neighborhood, life in a city, by your church congregations, or whatever. All of that stuff has been out boarded to commercial interests and to federal level oversight, because it's just more efficient to do it that way at the timescales that matter, that are visible to those systems. Yet, what COVID has shown us is that we actually need neighborhoods that suddenly, it doesn't – my wife and I, it was easy to make the decision to move across country to a place where we didn't know anybody to take a good job. But then suddenly when you're just alone in your house all the time and you've got nobody to help you raise your kids, that seems extremely dumb. So there's that question of just as I feel like modern science is coming back around to acknowledging that a lot of what was captured in old wives’ tales and in traditional indigenous knowledge, ecological knowledge systems that were regarded by the enlightenment as just rumor, or… JESSICA: Superstition. MICHAEL: Superstition, that it turns out that these things actually had, that they had merit, they were evolved. JESSICA: There was [inaudible] enough. MICHAEL: Right. Again, it wasn't rendered in the language that allowed it to be the subject of quantitative research until very recently and then, suddenly it was and suddenly, we had to circle back around. Science is basically in this position where they have to sort of canonize Galileo, they're like, “Ah, crap. We burned all these witches, but it turns out they were right.” There's that piece of it. So I think relatedly, one of the things that we're seeing in economist samples and Wendy Carlin have written about this is the return of the civil society, the return of mutual aid networks, and of gift economies, and of the extended family, and of buildings that are built around in courtyards rather than this Jeffersonian everyone on their own plot of land approach. That we're starting to realize that we had completely emptied out the topsoil basically of all of these community relationships in order to standardize things for a mass big agricultural approach, that on the short scale actually does generate greater yield. It's easier to have conversations with people who agree with you than it is – in a way, it's inexpedient to try and cross the aisle and have a conversation with someone with whom you deeply and profoundly disagree. But the more polarized we become as a civilization, the more unstable we become as a civilization. So over this larger timescale, we actually have to find ways to incentivize talking to people with whom you disagree, or we're screwed. We're kicking legs out from under the table. REIN: At this point, I have to name drop Habermas because he had this idea that there were two fundamental cognitive interests that humans have to direct their attempts to acquire knowledge. One is a technical interest in achieving goals through prediction and control and the other is a practical interest in ensuring mutual understanding. His analysis was that advanced capitalist societies, the technical interest dominates at the expense of the practical interest and that knowledge produced by empirical, scientific, analytic sciences becomes the prototype of all knowledge. I think that's what you're talking about here that we've lost touch with this other form of knowledge. It's not seen as valuable and the scientific method, the analytical approaches have come to dominate. MICHAEL: Yeah, precisely. [laughs] Again, I think in general, we've become impoverished in our imagination because again, the expectations, there's a shifting baseline. So what people expect to pull out of the ocean now is a fish that you might catch off just a commercial, or a recreational fishing expedition. It's a quarter of the size of the same species of fish you might've caught 50, 70 years ago and when people pull up this thing and they're like, “Oh, look at –” and they feel proud of themselves. I feel like that's what's going on with us in terms of our we no longer even recognize, or didn't until very recently recognize that we had been unwittingly colluding in the erosion of some very essential levels of organization and human society and that we had basically sold our souls to market efficiency and efficient state level governance. Now it's a huge mess to try and understand. You look at Occupy Wall Street and stuff like that and it just seems like such an enormous pain in the ass to try and process things in that way. But it's because we're having to relearn how to govern neighborhoods and govern small communities and make business decisions at the scale of a bioregion rather than a nation. JESSICA: Yeah. It's a scale thing. I love the phrase topsoil of community relationships, because when you talk about the purposive knowledge that whatever you call it, Rein, that is goal seeking. It's like the one tall tree that is like, “I am the tallest tree,” and it keeps growing taller and taller and taller, and it doesn't see that it's falling over because there's no trees next to it to protect it from the wind. It's that weaving together between all the trees and the different knowledge and the different people, our soul is there. Our resilience is there. REIN: Michael, you keep talking about scale. Are you talking about scale theory? MICHAEL: Yeah. Scaling laws, like Geoffrey West's stuff, Luis Bettencourt is another researcher at the University of Chicago who does really excellent work in urban scaling. I just saw a talk from him this morning that was really quite interesting about there being a sweet spot where a city can exist between how thinly it's distributed infrastructurally over a given area versus how congested it is. Because population and infrastructure scale differently, they scale at different rates than you get – REIN: If I remember my West correctly, just because I suspect that not all of our listeners are familiar with scale theory, there's this idea that there are certain things that grow super linearly as things scale and certain things that grow sub linearly. So for example, the larger a city gets, you get a 15% more restaurants, but you also get 15% more flu, but you also get 15% less traffic. MICHAEL: Yeah. So anything that depends on infrastructures scales sub linearly. A city of 2 million people has 185% the number of gas stations, but anything that scales anything having to do with the number of interactions between people scales super linearly. You get 115% of the – rather you get, what is it, 230%? Something like that. Anyway, it's 150%, it's 85% up versus 115% up. So patents, but also crime and also, just the general pace of life scale at 115% per capita. So like, disease transmission. So you get into these weird cases—and this links back to what we were talking about earlier—where people move into the city, because it's per unit. In a given day, you have so much more choice, you have so much more opportunity than you would in your agrarian Chinese community and that's why Shenzhen is basically two generations old. 20 million people and none of them have grandparents living in Shenzhen because they're all attracted to this thing. But at scale, what that means is that everyone is converging on the same answer. Everyone's moving into Shenzhen and away from their farming community. So you end up – in a way, it's not that that world is any more innovative. It's just, again, easier to capture that innovation and therefore, measure it. But then back to what we were saying about convergent categories and biogeography, it's like if somebody comes up with a brilliant idea in the farm, you're not necessarily going to see it. But if somebody comes up with the same brilliant idea in the city, you might also not see it for different reasons. So anyway, I'm in kind of a ramble, but. JESSICA: The optimal scale for innovation is not the individual and it's not 22 million, it's in between. MICHAEL: Well, I feel like at the level of a city, you're no longer talking about individuals almost in a way. At that point, you're talking about firms. A city is like a rainforest in which the fauna are companies. Whereas, a neighborhood as an ecosystem in which the fauna, or individual people and so, to equate one with the other is a potential point of confusion. Maybe an easier way to think about this would be multicellular life. My brain is capable of making all kinds of innovations that any cell, or organ in my body could not make on its own. There's a difference there. [overtalk] JESSICA: [inaudible]. MICHAEL: Right. It's easier, however, for a cell to mutate if it doesn't live inside of me. Because if it does, it's the cancer – [overtalk] JESSICA: The immune system will come attack it. MICHAEL: Right. My body will come and regulate that. JESSICA: Like, “You’re different, you are right out.” MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's not about innovation as some sort of whole category, again, it's about different kinds of innovation that are made that are emergent at different levels of organization. It's just the question of what kinds of innovation are made possible when you have something like the large Hadron Collider versus when you've got five people in a room around a pizza. You want to find the appropriate scale for the entity, for the system that's the actual level of granularity at which you're trying to look at the stuff, so. REIN: Can I try to put a few things together here in potentially a new way and see if it's anything? So we talked about the edge of chaos earlier and we're talking about scale theory now, and in both, there's this idea of fractal geometry. This idea that a coastline gets larger, the smaller your ruler is. In scale theory, there's this idea of space filling that you have to fill the space with things like capillaries, or roads and so on. But in the human lung, for example, if you unfurled all of the surface area, you'd fill up like a football field, I think. So maybe there's this idea that there's complexity that's possible, that’s made possible by the fractal shape of this liminal region that the edge of chaos. MICHAEL: Yeah. It's certainly, I think as basically what it is in maximizing surface area, like you do within a lung, then you're maximizing exposure. So if the scientific community were operating on the insights that it has generated in a deliberate way, then you would try to find a way to actually incorporate the fringe physics community. There's got to be a way to use that as the reservoir of chaos, rather than trying to shut that chaos out of your hill climbing algorithm and then at that point, it's just like, where's the threshold? How much can you invite before it becomes a distraction from getting anything done? When it's too noisy to be coherent. Arguably, what the internet has done for humankind has thrown it in completely the opposite direction where we've optimized entirely for surface area instead of for coherence. So now we have like, no two people seem to be able to agree on reality anymore. That's not useful either. REIN: Maybe there's also a connectivity thing here where if I want to get from one side of the city to the other, there are 50 different routes. But if I want to get from one city to another, there's a highway that does it. MICHAEL: Yeah, totally. So it's just a matter of rather than thinking about what allows for the most efficient decisions, in some sense, at one given timescale, it's how can we design hierarchical information, aggregation structures so as to create a wise balance between the demands on efficiency that are held at and maintained at different scales. SFI researcher, Jessica Flack talks about this in her work on collective computation and primate hierarchies where it’s a weird, awkward thing, but basically, there is an evolutionary argument for police, that it turns out that having a police system is preventing violence. This is mathematically demonstrable, but you also have to make sure that there's enough agency at the individual level, in the system that the police aren't in charge of everything going on. It's not just complex, it's complicated. [laughs] We've thrown out a ton of stuff on this call. I don't know, maybe this is just whetting people's appetite for something a little bit more focused and concise. JESSICA: This episode is going to have some extensive show notes. MICHAEL: Yeah. [chuckles] JESSICA: It's definitely time to move into reflections. JACOB: You were talking, at the very beginning, about Spotify. Like how, when unknown ideas are able to find their tribe and germinate. I was reading about how Netflix does business and it's very common for them to make some new content and then see how it goes for 30 days and then just kill it. Because they say, “Well, this isn't taking off. We're not going to make more of it,” and a lot of people can get really upset with that. There's definitely been some really great things out on Netflix that I'm like, for one on the one hand, “Why are you canceling this? I really wanted more,” and it seems like there's a lot of the people that do, too. What that's making me think about as well for one thing, I think it seems like Netflix from my experience, is not actually marketing some of their best stuff. You would never know it’s there, just in the way of people to find more unknown things. But also, I'm thinking about how just generally speaking some of the best ideas, TV shows, music, whatever are the kinds of things that there's not going to be an established container, group of people, that you can say, “We want to find white men ages 25 to 35 and we're going to dump it on their home screen because if anyone's going to like it, it's them and if they do, then we keep it and if they don't move, we don't.” I feel like the best things are we don't actually know who those groups are going to be and it's going to have a weird constellation of people that I couldn't actually classify. So I was just thinking about how that's an interesting challenge. JESSICA: Sweet. Rein, you have a thing? REIN: Yeah. I have another thing. I was just reminded of von Foerster, who was one of the founders of Second-order cybernetics. He has an ethical imperative, which is act always so as to increase the number of choices. I think about this actually a lot in my day-to-day work about maximizing the option value that I carry with me as I'm doing my work, like deferring certain decisions and so on. But I think it also makes sense in our discussion as well. JESSICA: True. Mine is about externalities. We talked about how, whatever you do, whatever your business does, whatever your technology does, there's always going to be effects on the world on the context and the context of the context that you couldn't predict. That doesn't mean don't do anything. It doesn't mean look for those. Recognize that there's going to be surprises and try to find them. It reminds me of sometimes, I think in interviewing, we’re like, “There are cognitive biases so in order to be fair, we must not use human judgment!” [laughter] Which is not helpful. I mean, yes, there are cognitive biases so look for them and try to compensate. Don't try to use only something predictable, like an algorithm. That's not helpful. That's it. MICHAEL: Yeah. Just to speak to a little bit of what each of you have said, I think for me, one of the key takeaways here is that if you're optimizing for future opportunity, if you're trying to—and I think I saw MIT defined intelligence in this way, that AI could be measured in terms of its ability to – AGI rather could be measured in terms of its ability to increase the number of games steps available to it, or options available to it in the next step of an unfolding puzzle, or whatever. Superhuman AGI is going to break out of any kind of jail we try to put it in just because it's doing better at this. But the thing is that that's useless if we take it in terms of one spaciotemporal scale. Evolutionary dynamics have found a way to do this in a rainforest that optimizes biodiversity and the richness of feeding relationships in a food web without this short-sighted quarterly return maximizing type of approach. So the question is are you trying to create more opportunities for yourself right now? Are you trying to create more opportunities for your kids, or are you trying to transcend the rivalrous dynamics? You've set yourself up for intergenerational warfare if you pick only one of those. The tension between feed yourself versus feed your kids is resolved in a number of different ways in different species that have different – yeah. It is exactly, Rein in the chat you said, it reminds you of the trade-off between efficiency and adaptability and it's like, arguably, adaptability is efficiency aggregated when you're looking at it over a longer timescale, because you don't want to have to rebuild civilization from scratch. So [chuckles] I think it's just important to add the dimension of time and to consider that this is something that's going on at multiple different levels of organization at the same time and that's a hugely important to how we actually think about these topics. JESSICA: Thinking of scales of time, you’ve thought about these interesting topics for an hour, or so now and I hope you'll continue thinking about them over weeks and consult the show notes. Michael, how can people find out more about you? MICHAEL: I'm on Twitter and Instagram if people prefer diving in social media first, I don't recommend it. I would prefer you go to patreon.com/michaelgarfield and find future fossils podcasts there. I have a lot of other stuff I do, the music and the art and everything feeds into everything else. So because I'm a parent and because I don't want all of my income coming from my day job, I guess Patreon is where I suggest people go first. [laughs] Thank you. JESSICA: Thank you. And of course, to support the podcast, you can also go to patrion.com/greaterthancode. If you donate even a dollar, you can join our Slack channel and join the conversation. It'll be fun. Special Guest: Michael Garfield.

Welcome to Off the Shelf! You can follow me on Instagram here: Phoebe @ Pause Books HQ (@pausebooks)  You can follow me on Twitter: Phoebe @ Pause Books HQ (@PauseBooks)  My guest this week is Jessica: You can follow her on Instagram here: Jessica | Stuck In The Book (@stuckinthebook)  You can follow her the Let's Get Classical Book Club on Instagram here: ‘Lets Get Classical' Book Club (@letsgetclassical_bookclub) 

She is a Veterinary Doctor, an IFBB pro, wife, and athlete coordinator of one of the most prestigious teams in the industry, Body by O! Jessica Wilson joins the Bikini Diaries Podcast to share how a life-treating diagnosis changes the trajectory of her life. She also tells us all about her covid experience that led her to a dark place. If you need help looking to the small, precious moments that gave you light and changed your life, you will learn so much from Jessica! This episode is real, raw, vulnerable, and so very impactful!
 
 Here’s what you will hear: [5:00] - Bikini Hack [15:00] - How Jessica copes with anxiety [17:00] - A life-threatening diagnosis [20:00] - Letting loose in her 30s [25:00] - The medical diagnosis details [30:00] - How Jessica got into bodybuilding [38:00] - Going public with bodybuilding in the vet world [45:00] - Jessica’s 2020 spiral [59:00] - How 2020 changed her [1:07:00] - What’s next for Jessica
 
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I met Jessica at the Powerhouse Women Mastermind.⁣⁣And this Enneagram 5 decided to work one-on-one with me after recognizing there was a missing piece for her.⁣⁣⁣Listen now⁣⁣⁣Enneagram 5s in the entrepreneurial space are rare.⁣⁣But when they really embody and step into that space, there’s nobody like them. Personally, I think they’re the most brilliant on the Enneagram.⁣⁣Enneagram 5s have the motivational need to know and understand things and value making sense of the world around them.⁣⁣But this means they can also go down the rabbit hole. They are also master energy and resource hoarders and offer the gift of non-attachment to themselves and the world, which is super helpful in business.⁣⁣Here’s where they can get into trouble: They can be stingy at times.⁣⁣They can be stingy with their information and energy. They can also be intellectually arrogant and disconnected from their hearts, retreating to their minds to avoid being intruded on or overwhelmed.⁣⁣During this podcast, we explore Jessica’s journey and how being typed as a 5 changed her perspective of both herself and her entrepreneurial path.⁣⁣⁣Quotes: ⁣0:58 ⁣Enneagram 5’s in the entrepreneurial space, they’re rare. ⁣ ⁣7:32 Jessica⁣You typed me as a 5 and I swear my entire world changed, I was like ‘okay I can finally accept who I exactly am, I’m an introvert, introvert.’⁣⁣9:34 Jessica⁣Learning that I was a 5 just literally changed everything, it made being introverted okay. ⁣⁣13:31⁣Every transaction in the world is sales.⁣⁣17:11 ⁣This is the gift for all you 5’s listening out there, like please be nerdy, please be you because you are the master problem solvers because you do have it figured out. ⁣⁣19:29 ⁣Enneagram 5’s have the hardest time when people say like get out of your head or trust your gut, they’re like ‘screw you, it’s not possible.’⁣⁣25:47 ⁣I think this whole blanketed kind of personal development out there is sh*t and it’s really doing a lot more harm than good. ⁣⁣31:31 ⁣When it comes to leaning in to that decisive growth number, that 8, that’s never going to feel natural for you and sometimes we need the help of our wings. ⁣⁣39:27 ⁣When we share our stories and our experiences, that is how people decide who they can trust to help them solve their problems. ⁣⁣41:29 ⁣There is a huge difference between taking responsibility and taking responsibility for the belief and mindset you have around the things that have happened.⁣

02:15 - David’s Superpower: Being Confused * Norms of Excellence (https://notebook.drmaciver.com/posts/2020-05-31-09:20.html) * The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance (https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Tennis-Classic-Performance/dp/0679778314) 11:56 - Daily Writing * David’s Newsletter: Overthinking Everything (https://drmaciver.substack.com/) * Unfuck Your Habitat (https://www.unfuckyourhabitat.com/) 15:47 - Learning to Be Better at Emotions 23:22 - Achievement and Joy as Aspirational Goals * [Homeostasis vs Homeorhesis](https://wikidiff.com/homeostasis/homeorhesis#:~:text=is%20that%20homeostasis%20is%20(physiology,to%20a%20trajectory%2C%20as%20opposed) * Aspiration: The Agency of Becoming by Agnes Callard (https://www.amazon.com/Aspiration-Agency-Becoming-Agnes-Callard/dp/0190639482) * Seeing like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed by James C. Scott (https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153/ref=sr_1_2?crid=HEYGC212F6SG&dchild=1&keywords=seeing+like+a+state+by+james+c+scott&qid=1613057768&s=books&sprefix=seeing+like+a+state%2Cstripbooks%2C164&sr=1-2) * Philosophical Investigations by Ludwig Wittgenstein (https://www.amazon.com/Philosophical-Investigations-Ludwig-Wittgenstein/dp/1405159286/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1JRUU030WBCWQ&dchild=1&keywords=philosophical+investigations&qid=1613058025&s=books&sprefix=philos%2Cstripbooks%2C209&sr=1-1) Reflections: Jessica: Trying not knowing yourself. Rein: You shouldn’t be the owner of all your desires. Instead, you should measure your life by how well you follow the intentions that arise out of your values. Jacob: Thinking of yourself as the sum of all of the habits you maintain or don’t. David: The [Homeostasis vs Homeorhesis](https://wikidiff.com/homeostasis/homeorhesis#:~:text=is%20that%20homeostasis%20is%20(physiology,to%20a%20trajectory%2C%20as%20opposed) distinction, and cleaning a home as an ongoing process. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: SPONSORED AD: Whether you're working on a personal project or managing enterprise infrastructure, you deserve simple, affordable, and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level. Simplify your cloud infrastructure with Linode's Linux virtual machines and develop, deploy, and scale your modern applications faster and easier. Get started on Linode today with $100 in free credit for listeners of Greater Than Code. You can find all the details at linode.com/greaterthancode. Linode has 11 global data centers and provides 24/7/365 human support with no tiers or hand-offs regardless of your plan size. In addition to shared and dedicated compute instances, you can use your $100 in credit on S3-compatible object storage, Managed Kubernetes, and more. Visit linode.com/greaterthancode and click on the "Create Free Account" button to get started. JACOB: Hello and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 223. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I'm joined with my co-host, Rein Henrichs. REIN: Thanks, Jacob and I'm here with my friend and also stranger because we haven't done this together in months, Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thank you, Rein! And Iím really excited today because our guest is David MacIver. Twitter handle, @DRMacIver. David MacIver is best known as the developer of Hypothesis, the property-based testing library for Python, and is currently doing a Ph.D. based on some of that work. But he also writes extensively about emotions, life, and society and sometimes coaches people on an eclectic mix of software development, intellectual, and emotional skills. As you can probably tell, David hasn't entirely decided what he wants to do when he grows u and that's the best because if you had decided well, then so few possibilities would be open. David, hello! DAVID: Hi, Jessica! Great to be here. JESSICA: All right. I'm going to ask the obligatory question. What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? DAVID: So as you saw me complaining about on Twitter, this question doesn't translate very well outside of the United States. JESSICA: Yeah, which is fascinating for me. DAVID: I'm a bit too British to say nice things about myself without sounding like I'm being self-deprecating. JESSICA: Self-depreciating it is! DAVID: [laughs] So I thought about this one for a while and I decided that the answer is that I'm really good at being confused and in particular, I have a much more productive response to being confused than it seems like most people do because basically, the world is super confusing and I think I never know what's going on, but then I notice that I know what's going on and I look at it and I'm just like, ìHmm, this is weird, right?î And then I read a book about it, or I sort of poke at it a bit and then I'm not less confused, but I'm less confused about that like, one little facet of the world and have found ten new things to be confused about. [laughter] JESSICA: Nice. DAVID: Usually, I can then turn this into being slightly better at the thing I was previously confused about, or writing about it and making everyone else differently confused than they started with. JESSICA: Definitely confused. That is a win. That's called learning. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. [laughter] This is where a lot of the writing you were talking about comes from and essentially, about 2 years ago, I just started turning these skills less on software development and more just going like, ìLife, it doesn't make sense, right?î [laughter] And noticing a whole bunch of things, I needed to work on and then that a lot of these were shared common problems. So I am, if anything, far more confused about all of it than I was 2 years ago, but I'm less confused about the things I was confused about that and seem to be gradually becoming a more functional human being as a result of the process. So yay, confusion. JESSICA: That superpower, the productive response to confusion, ties in with your reaction to the superpower question in general, which is as Americans, we're supposed to be ñ we want to have power. We want to be special. We want to be unique. We want to make our unique contribution to the world! And as part of that, we're not comfortable being confused because we need to know things! We need to be smart! We need to convey strength and competence and be the best! I hate the superlatives. [laughter] I hate the implied competition there, but instead, we could open our hearts to our own confusion and embrace that. Be comfortable being uncomfortable. DAVID: One of the things that often comes up for me is it's a thing that I think is slightly intentioned with this American tendency youíre pointing at, which is that I kind of want to be the best, but I don't really want to be better than other people. I just want to be better than I am now. I wrote a post a while ago about neuromas of excellence like, what would a community look like, which helped everyone be the best version of themselves and one of the top lists was basically that everyone has to be comfortable with not being good at things, but another is just that you have to not want to be better to the other people. You just need want to be better. Again, this is where a lot of the writing comes from. I've just gone, ìWell, this was helpful to me. It's probably helpful to other people.î That's not as sense of wanting to change the world and wanting to put my own stamp on things and it does require a certain amount to self-importance to go, ìYes, my writing is important and other people will like to read it,î but then other people like to read it so, that's fine and if they don't, that's fine, too. JESSICA: Well, you didn't make anyone read it, but you did start a newsletter and let people read it. JACOB: Is this weird thinking reflect a journey that you took in your life? Because I think about my company and my team and how incredibly generous everybody is and even still, I just find it's natural to compare myself to everyone else and needing to not be on the bottom. Part of me wonders if that's just like a natural human tendency, but just because it's natural doesn't make it so. JESSICA: Way natural American. JACOB: Yeah, basically I'm asking how do I stop doing that? [laughter] DAVID: It's definitely not something I've always been perfectly good at. But I think the thing that helped me figure out how to do this was essentially being simultaneously at the bottom of the social rung, but also super arrogant. So it's your classic nerd kit thing, right? It's completely failing at people, but also going, ìBut I'm better than all of you because I'm smart,î and then essentially, gradually having the rough edges filed off the second part and realizing how much I had to learn off the first part. I think sometimes my attitude is due to a lot of this is basically, to imagine I was a time traveler and basically going back in time and telling little David all the things that it was really frustrating that nobody could explain to me and I sadly haven't yet managed to perfect my time machine, but I can still pay it forward. If nobody was able to explain this to me and I'm able to explain it to other people, then surely, the world is a better place with me freely handing out this information. I don't think it's possible, or even entirely desirable to completely eliminate the comparing yourself to others and in fact, I'd go as far as to say, comparing yourself to others is good, but I think theÖ JESSICA: Itís how do we have a productive response to compare ourselves to others? DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. There's a great section in The Inner Game of Tennis, which is a book that I have very mixed feelings about, but it has some great bits where he talks about competition. If you think of a mountain climber, a mountain climber is basically pitting themselves against the mountain, right? They're trying to climb the mountain because it is hard and you could absolutely take a helicopter to the top of the mountain, but that wouldn't be the point. It's you're improving yourself by trying a hard thing. I mean, you're improving yourself in the sense that you're getting better at climbing mountains. You might not be improving yourself in any sort of fully generalizable way. JESSICA: Okay. [laughter] DAVID: When you are playing tennisóbecause this is a book about tennisóyou are engaged in competition with each other and you're each trying to be better than the other. In this context, essentially, what you are doing is you are being the mountain for each other. So you are creating the obstacles that the other people overcome and improve themselves that way and in doing this, you're not just being a dick about it. You're not doing this in order to crush them. You're doing this in order to provide them with the challenge that lets them grow. When you think about it this way, other people being better than you is great because there's this mountain there and you can climb it and by climbing the mountain, you can improve yourself. The thing that stops everyone becoming great is feeling threatened by the being better rather than treating it as an opportunity for learning. JESSICA: Yeah, trying to dynamite the mountain instead of climbing it. Whereas, when you are the mountain for someone else, you can also provide them footholds. Rein, do you have an example of this? REIN: I sure do, Jess. Thanks for asking. So I was just [laughs] thinking while you were talking about this, about the speed running and speed running communities. Because speed running is about testing yourself against a video game, which in this case, serves the purpose of the mountain, but it's also about competing against other speed runners. If it was purely competitive, you wouldn't see the behaviors, the reciprocity in the communities like sharing speed running strats, being really happy when other people break your record. I think it's really interesting that that community is both competitive, but there's also a lot of reciprocity, a lot of sharing. JACOB: And it's like the way the science community should work. It's like, ìOh, you made this new discovery because of this discovery I shared with you and now I'm proud that my discovery is this foundation for all these other little things that now people can be by themselves in 10 seconds instead of 30.î JESSICA: Yeah. Give other people a head start on the confusion you've already had so that they can start resolving new confusions. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely one of my hopes with all of this writing is to encourage other people to do it themselves. Earlier this year, I was getting people very into daily writing practices and just trying to get people to write as much as possible. I now think that was slightly a mistake because I think daily writing is a great thing to do for about a month and then it just gets too much. So I will probably see if I can figure out other ways of encouraging people to notice their confusion, as you say, and share what they've learned from edge. But sadly, can't quite get into do it daily. JESSICA: This morningís newsletter you talked about. Okay, okay, I can do daily writing, but now I want to get better at writing. I've got to go do something I'm worse at. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think daily writing is still a really good transitional stage for most people. To give them more context for this newsletter for people listening. Basically, most of my writing to date, I just write in a 1- or 2-hour sitting from start to finish. I don't really edit it. I just click publish and I've gotten very good at writing like that. I think that most people are ñ I mean, sometimes it's a bit obvious that I haven't edited it because they're obvious typos and the like. But by and large, I think it is a reasonably high standard of writing and I'm not embarrassed to be putting it out in that quality, but the fact that I'm not editing is just starting to be sort of the limiter on growth for me. It's never going to really get better than it currently is. It's certainly not going to allow me to tackle larger projects that I can currently tackle without that editing skill. JESSICA: [laughs] I just pictured you trying to sit down and write a book in one session. [laughter] And then you'd be tired. DAVID: Yeah. I've tried to doing that with papers even and it doesn't really work. I mean, I do edit papers, but Iím very visibly really bad at editing papers and it's one of my weaknesses as a academic is that I still haven't really got the hang of paper writing. JESSICA: Do you edit other people's papers? DAVID: I don't edit other people's papers, but I provide feedback on other people's writing and say, ìThis is what worked for me. This is what didn't work for me. Here are some typos you made.î It's not reading as providing good feedback on things, that is the difficult part of editing for me. It is much more ñ honestly, it's an emotional problem more than anything else. It's not really that I'm bad at editing at a technical level. I'm okay at editing at a technical level. I just hate doing it. [laughs] JESSICA: That is most problems we have, right? DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: In the end, itís an emotional problem. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think that is definitely one of the interesting things I've been figuring out in my last 2 years of working on learning more about emotions and the various skills around them is just going, ìOh, right. It's not this abstract thing where you are learning to be better at emotions and then nothing will change in your life because you're just going to be happier about everything.î I mean, some people do approach it that way, but for me, it's very much been, ìOh, I'm learning to be good at emotions because this really concrete problem that I don't understand, it turns out that that's just feelings.î [laughter] It's like, for example, the literature on how to have a clean home, turns out that's mostly anxiety management and guilt management. It's like fundamentally cleaning your home is not a hard problem. Not procrastinating on cleaning your home is a hard problem. Not feeling intensely guilty and aversive about the dirty dishes in the sink and is putting them off for a week. I don't do that. But just as a hypothetical example. [laughter] I mean, not a hypothetical example, I think a specific example that comes from the book, Unfuck Your Habitat, which is a great example of essentially, it's a book that's about it contains tips, like fill the spray bottle with water and white vinegar and also, tips about how to manage your time and how to deal with the fact that you're mostly not cleaning because of shame, that sort of thing. Writing books are another great example where 80% about managing the feelings associated with writing; it turns out practical problems pretty much all come down to emotionsóat least practical life problems. REIN: Sorry, I was just buying Unfuck Your Habitat real quick. [laughter] DAVID: It's a good book. I recommend it. JESSICA: Our internal like emotional habitat and our external habitat are very linked. You said something earlier about learning to be at emotions is not just you're magically happier at other things in your life change. DAVID: Yes. I mean, I think there are a couple of ways in which it manifests. One of them is just that emotions often are the internal force that maintains our life habits. It's you live in a particular way because moving outside of those trained habits is scary or aversive in some way. Like the cleaning example of how, if your home is a mess, it's not necessarily because you don't know how to make your home not a mess. Although, cleaning is a much harder skill than most people treat it as speaking as someone who is bad at the practical skills of cleaning, as well as the emotional side of cleaning. But primarily, if it were just a matter of scale, you could just do it and get better at it, right? The thing that is holding you in place is the emotional reaction to the idea of changing your habits. So the specific reason why I started on all of this process was essentially relationship stuff. I'd started a new major relationship. My previous one hadn't gone so well for reasons that were somewhere between emotional and communication issues, for the same reason basically every relationship doesn't go so well, if it doesn't go so ñ Oh, that's not quite true. Like there are actual ñ JESSICA: Some people have actual problems. [chuckles] But these things are. I mean, our emotions really, as sometimes we treat them as if they're flaws. As if our emotions are getting in our way is some sort of judgment about us as not being good people, but no, it just makes us people. DAVID: For sure. JESSICA: So you started on this journey because of the external motivation of helping someone you're in a relationship with, because it's really hard to do these things just for ourselves. DAVID: It is incredibly hard to do things just for ourselves. I guess, that is exactly an example of this problem, right? It's that there is a particular habit of life that I was in and what I needed to break out of that habit of life was the skills for dealing with it and then figuring out these emotional reactions. But unfortunately, the thing that the habits were maintaining, it was me not having the skills and so having the external prompts of a problem that was in the world rather than in my life, as it was, was what was needed to essentially kick me out of that. Fortunately, it turns out that my standard approach of reading a thousand books now was one that worked for me, in this case. I probably haven't read a thousand books on this, but that certainly worked. JESSICA: It wouldnít surprise me. [laughs] DAVID: I read fewer books than people think I do. I may well have read more than a hundred books about emotions and therapy and the like. But I probably haven't, unless I cast that brush really broadly, because I mean, everything's a book about emotions and therapy, if you look at your right. REIN: Have you read any books by average Virginia Satir? [laughter] DAVID: I don't know who that is, I'm afraid. JACOB: Drink! REIN: Excellent! Excellent news. [laughter] JESSICA: Itís about Virginia Satir, right? REIN: Virginia was a family therapist who wrote a lot about processing emotions and I have been a huge fan of her work and it's made a huge difference in my life and my career. So I highly recommend it. DAVID: Okay. I will definitely hear recommendations on books. What's the book title, or what's your favorite book title by? REIN: I think I would start with The Satir Model, which is S-A-T-I-R M-O-D-E-L. The Satir Model, which is about her family therapy model. JESSICA: Chances are good, you've read books based on her work. I was reading Gerry Weinberg's Quality Software Management: Volume Two the other day, which is entirely based on The Satir Model. REIN: Yeah. He was a student of hers. One of the things that she likes to say is that the problem is never the problem, how we cope is the problem. JESSICA: Can we have a productive response to the problem? DAVID: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. I think often, the problem is also the problem. [laughter] JESSICA: It's often self-sustaining like the habits you're talking about. Our life habits form a self-sustaining system and then it took that external stimulus. It's not like an external stimulus somehow kicked you in the butt and changed you, it let you change yourself. DAVID: Yes, absolutely. I guess what I mean is ñ so let's continue with the cleaning example. The problem is that your flat is messy and your flat is messy because of these life habits, because your emotional reactions to all these things. If you do the appropriate emotional work, you unblock yourself on shame and anxiety around a messy flat, and you look around and you've saw you've processed all these emotions. You fixed how you respond to the problem and it turns out your flat is still messy and you still have to clean it. I think emotional reactions are what either ñ Iím making it sound like emotional reactions are all negative and I really don't mean that. I mean, that way is just ñ JESSICA: Oh, right because once you've dealt with all that shame and the anxiety and stuff, and maybe you've picked up your flat some, and then you come in and you have groceries and you stop and you immediately put them away and you get a positive, emotional feeling from that as you're in the process of keeping your flat tidy. The emotions can reinforce a clean flat as well. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is something that has always been one of my goals more than it is what am I active? JESSICA: No, I love this distinction that you're making here. Is it a goal or is it something I'm activelyÖ? The word goal is [inaudible]. DAVID: Yeah. So I think for me, one of the other problems, other than the relationships it starts, was me essentially realizing that my emotional experience, it wasn't bad. I mean, it wasn't great, but I wasn't actively miserable most of the time, but it also just didn't have very many positive features, which it turns out is also a form of depression. It's very easy to treat depression as just like you're incredibly sad all the time, but that doesn't have to what it can be like flatness is. So I think very much from early on in my mind was that the getting better at emotions wasn't just about not being anxious. It was also about experiencing things like joy, it was about being happier and I think having this as sort of an aspirational goal is very, very motivating in terms of a lot of this work and in terms of a lot of trying to understand all of this, because I think I don't want to be miserableóit only gets you so far. If you have a problem that you're trying to solve, and that turns out to be an emotional block, you have to actually wants to solve the problem. It's like, I think if you don't want to clean the flat, then it doesn't matter how much you sort of fix your anxiety around that. You're still just going to go, ìOkay. I'm no longer anxious about this messy flat. That's great,î and your flat is going to stay messy because you don't actually want it not to be and that's fine. JESSICA: Itís just fine, yeah. Who cares? Especially now. DAVID: Unless it becomes a health hazard, but yeah. [laughter] DAVID: Certainly like thereís ñ JESSICA: If you're affecting the neighboring flats with your roaches, thatís fine. DAVID: [laughs] Yeah. JESSICA: So you were talking about joy as an aspirational goal, but it's not the kind of goal where you check the box at the end of the year and declare yourself worthy of a 2% raise. DAVID: [laughs] No, absolutely not and I think for all big goals, really, I find that I want to be very clichÈ and say, it's the journey, not the destination. JESSICA: But it is! No, it totally is! DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: See, the word goal really irks me because people often use it to mean something that you should actually reach. Like write every day per month, that's a goal that you find benefits from hitting, but feelings of joy are, as you said, aspirational. I call it a quest, personally. Some people call it a North Star. It is a direction that can help you make decisions that will move you in that direction, but if you ever get thereÖ No, that doesn't make sense. You wouldn't want to exist in a perpetual state of joy. That would also be flat. [laughs] DAVID: No, absolutely. And I think even with big but achievable goals, it still is still quite helpful to treat them in this way. So for one, quite close to my heart right now, a goal of doing a Ph.D. I think you've got a 3-, 4-year long project in the States, I think it's more like 5 or 6 and if you treat the Ph.D. as it's pass/fail, like either you get the Ph.D. or those 3 or 4 years have been wasted, then that's not very motivating and also will result in, I think, worst quality results in work. Like the thing to do is ñ JESSICA: Like anxiety, stress, and shame. DAVID: Yeah. Yeah, very much so. [chuckles] So just thinking in terms of there's this big goal that you're trying to achieve of the Ph.D., but the goal doesn't just define a pass/fail; it defines a direction. Like if you get better at paper writing in order to get your Ph.D., then even if you don't get your Ph.D., you got better at paper writing and that's good, too. JESSICA: Because the other outcome is the next version of you. DAVID: Yes, exactly. JESSICA: Itís about who does this aspirational goal prompt you to become? REIN: This reminds me of the difference between homeostasis and homeorhesis. Homeostasis is about maintaining a state; homeorhesis is about maintaining a trajectory DAVID: That makes sense. Yes, very much that distinction and also, one of the nice things about this focus on a trajectory is that even if a third of the way through the trajectory, you decide you don't want to maintain it anymore and actually you're fine where you are. This goal was a bad idea or you've got different priorities now, possibly because a global pandemic has arrived and has changed all of your priorities. Then you still come all that way. It's like the trajectory doesn't just disappear backwards in time because you're no longer going in that direction. You've still made all that progress. Youíve still got to drive some of the benefits from it. JESSICA: Yeah. There's another thing that maybe it's an American thing, or maybe it's wider than that of if it doesn't last forever, then it was never real, or if you don't achieve the stated goal, then all your effort was wasted. DAVID: Yeah. I don't think itís purely an American thing. It's hard to tell with how much American pop culture permeates everything and also, I shouldn't say that although I'm quite British, I am also half American. So Iím a weird third culture kid where my background doesn't quite make sense to anyone. But yeah, no, I very much feel that. This idea that permanence is required for importance and it's something that every time I sort of catch myself there, I'm just like, ìYeah, David, you're doing the thing again. Have you tried not doing the thing?î [chuckles] But it's hard. It's very internalized. JESSICA: If you clean your flat and a week later, it's dirty again. Well, it was clean for a week. That's not nothing. DAVID: Yeah. I do genuinely think that one of the emotions that people struggle with cleaning. Certainly, it is for me. JESSICA: Oh, because it's a process. It is not a destination. Nothing is ever clean! DAVID: Yeah. JACOB: I think of myself sometimes as I want to be the kind of person that always has a clean home, as opposed to, I like it when my house is clean. JESSICA: Yeah. Is it about you or is it about some real effect you want? JACOB: Yeah. Is it about like the story that that I imagine I could project if I could project on Instagram because I'm taking pictures of my pristine house all the time, or is it just like, I like to look around and see things where they belong? DAVID: Yeah. I'm curious, does this result in your home being clean? JACOB: No, it doesnít and thatís sort of the issue that I'm just realizing is it's not actually a powerful motivator because it's just not possible trying to imagine that I could maintain homeostasis about it. It's not a possible goal and so yeah, it's not going to happen. REIN: Yeah. The metaphor here is it changes motion, but it's always happening so it's more like the flow of time than motion through space. JESSICA: Itís not motion, too. REIN: Actually staying the same is very hard to do and very expensive. DAVID: Absolutely. JESSICA: No wonder it takes all of our feelings to help us achieve it. [chuckles] DAVID: So the reason I was asking by the way about whether this idea of being the sort of person who has a clean home is effective is that this ties in a little bit to what today's newsletter was about. There's this problem where when you have self-images that are constructed around being good at particular things, being bad at those things is very much, it's a shame trigger. It's essentially, you experienced the world as clashing with your conception of yourself and we get really good at not noticing those things. You see this a lot with procrastination, for example, where you are putting off doing a thing because it does force you to confront this sort of conflict between identity and reality. I think sometimes, the way out of it is just to identify less with the things that we want to achieve in the world and just try and go, ìI'm doing this because I want to and if I didn't want to, that would be fine, too.î Essentially, becoming fine with both an outcome and failing to achieve that outcome is often the best way to achieve the outcome. JESSICA: So practicing editing in order to practice editing, whether you achieve writing a book or not, whether you're good at it or not, and it does come back to the journey. If what you're doing is a means to an end and yet not in line with that end, it often backfires because the means are the end. In the end, they become it. So having a clean house is stupid. That's not a thing. Picking up is a thing. That's something you can do and what I am picking up. True fact! [laughs] You don't have to worry about whether you can, are you doing it? All right then, you can! Whereas, having a clean house is not a thing. DAVID: Very much. This kind of ties into the comments about books earlier, where you were talking about how many books I read, and one of the things that I think very much stops people from reading books is the idea that oh God, there are so many books to read, I'll never get through all of them. JESSICA: If I started, I have to finish it. DAVID: Oh, yeah. I mean, people definitely shouldn't do that; books are there to be abandoned if they're bad. JESSICA: I read a lot of chapter ones. DAVID: Yeah. I have a slightly bad habit of buying books speculatively because they seem good and as a result, I think my shelf of books that I'm probably never going to get around to read, but might do someday and might not and either is fine is probably like a hundred plus books now. JESSICA: I love that shelf. I have big piles everywhere. [laughs] There's always something to read wherever I sit and most of it, I will never read, but it's beautiful. DAVID: I'm currently in a very weird experience where I write, for possibly the first time in my life, I have more bookshelf space than books. JESSICA: Huh, that's not a stable state. DAVID: No, no. This will be fixed by the time I leave this flat. The piles will return. JESSICA: You will maintain the trajectory. DAVID: Yeah. [laughs] Because I'm just reading. I can read these as many books because I just sit down and read and at some point, I will finish a book or I will abandon the book and both are fine. But I think if you treat this as a goal where your goal is to read all the books, then that's not the thing and also, I think people go, ìMy goal is to read a hundred books a year,î or I don't know how normal people guesstimates are. JESSICA: Itís like, is it really or itís their goal to learn something. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. JESSICA: And the means is reading books. DAVID: Yeah. I think if one instead just goes, ìI like reading and it's useful so I'm going to read books,î you'll probably end up reading a lot more than setting some specific numerical goal. Also, you run into sort of Goodhart's law things where if your goal is to read a hundred books in a year, great buy the Mr. Men set. But wait, it's not a thing in ñ the Mr. Men are a series of kidsí books which tells ñ JESSICA: With the big smiley face? DAVID: Yeah. Exactly, that's the one. [laughter] You can read a hundred of those in a weekóI assume there are hundred Mr. Men books, I don't actually knowóand youíll probably learn something. JESSICA: Then again, you might choose Dynamics in Action, never get through it, and then feel bad about it, and that would be pointless because you learned more from the introduction than you did from the Mr. Men series. DAVID: I don't think I've even opened my copy of Dynamics in Action. I think you recommended on Twitter or something and I was just like, ìThat does sound interesting. I will speculatively buy this book.î JESSICA: It's a hard book. DAVID: Yeah. It's far from the hardest book on my shelves, but it's definitely in the top. I'm going to confidently say top 20, but it might be harder than that. I just haven't done a comparative analysis and I don't want to overpromise. [laughter] JESSICA: The point being read books because you want to know. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: Or sometimes because you want to have read them. That's the thing. There's a lot of things I may not want to pick up, but I do want to have picked up and I can use that to motivate me. DAVID: Yeah, and even then, there are two versions of that and both are good, actually. I think one of them sounds bad. One version is you want to have read it because you want to understand the material in it and the other one is just, you want to be able to say that you have read it and thus, you ñ and probably for the status game and also, just sort of as a box ticking, like I think ñ JESSICA: Oh, itís not completely wrong. DAVID: No, it's not completely wrong. JESSICA: You still get something out of it. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: On the other hand, if you want to read it because you want to be the kind of person who would read it. I don't know about that one. DAVID: Yeah, I agree. I thinkÖ JESSICA: Then again, life habits. Sometimes, if you want to be the kind of person who picks up and so you fake it long enough to form the habit, then you are. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely and I read a book recentlyóof course, I didóby Agnes Callard called Aspiration, which I'm glad I read it. I cannot really recommend it to people who aren't philosophers, because there's a thing that often happens with reading analytic philosophy, where the author clearly has a keen insight into an important problem that you, as the reader, lack and the way they express that insight is through an entire bookís worth of slightly pedantic arguments with other analytic philosophers who have wrong opinions about the subjects. JESSICA: Half of Dynamics in Action is like that. DAVID: Yeah, I think it very complicated. REIN: Was it written as a thesis? DAVID: I don't think so. I'm not certain about that, but it might've been. It ended up being quite an influential book and I think she was mentioning that there's going to be a special issue of a journal coming out to recently about essentially, its impact and responses to it. But I think it's just genuinely that analytic philosophers had a lot of really wrong opinions about this subject. So the relevance of this is the idea she introduces the book is that of a proleptic value where ñ JESSICA: Proleptic, more words. DAVID: Proleptic basically, I think originally comes from grammar and it means something that stands in place for another thing. A proleptic value is what you do when you're engaged in a process of aspiration, which is trying to acquire values that you don't currently have. So she uses the example of a music student who wants to learn to appreciate the genre of music that they do not currently appreciate and they find a teacher who does appreciate that genre and they basically use their respect for that teacher as a proleptic value. They basically say, ìI don't currently value this genre of music, but I trust your judgment and I value your opinion and I will use your feedback and that respect for you as a value that stands in place of the future value of appreciating this genre of music that I hope to acquire.î So I think this thing of reading a book because you want to be the sort of person who reads that kind of book can have a similar function where even though, you don't really wants to read the book, that process of aspiration gives you a hook into becoming the sort of person who does want to read the book. JESSICA: That's like being the mountain for each other. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: In some ways. You're not going to get a view yet. You're only 10 feet off the ground, but meanwhile, just climb to climb because it's here. DAVID: Yeah. I'm not necessarily very good at being the sort of person reading books for this reason. Partly because there are so many books, I have so many other reasons to read, but yeah. JESSICA: Yeah, you're fine. You don't need more reasons to read a book. DAVID: [laughs] But I think two books that I have read mostly to have read them rather than necessarily because I was having an amazing time and learning lots of things reading them are Seeing Like a State by James Scott, which it's a good book. I don't think it's a bad book, but it is very much a history book that also has a big idea and there are like 70,000 blog posts about the big idea. So if you're going and wanting just the big idea, read one of the blog posts, but I'd seen a reference so many times and I was just like, ìYou know, this seems like a book that I should rate,î and my opinion is now basically that like, if you like history books and if you want lots of detail, then yeah, it's a great book to read. If you just want the big idea, donít. JESSICA: Right, because other people have presented it more succinctly, which probably happens with your Aspiration book that you talked about. DAVID: I would like it to happen with the Aspiration book. The Aspiration book is only a few years old. JESSICA: You've written a ñ oh, okay, so it's too soon for that. So you'll write about it, if you haven't yet. DAVID: Yeah, I havenít yet. Looking at it, it was published in 2018 and you have the paperback from 2019. So this is really cutting-edge philosophy to the degree that there is such a thing. [chuckles] JESSICA: Yeah. Oh no, what do you mean? [inaudible]. REIN: Seeing Like a State is. DAVID: Well, I've had this argument with philosopher friends where I was arguing that it was a thing and the philosopher friend was just like, ìIs it a thing, though?î Because the interesting thing about philosophy is just that it never goes out to date. People are sort of engaging with the entire historical cannon so the question is not does new philosophy get done? The question is more, I think is this less ñ? JESSICA: This isnít really a cutting edge. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. JESSICA: Itís more kind of a gentle nuzzling. DAVID: [laughs] Yeah. But also, is this more cutting edge than, I don't know, reading Aristotle's Nicomachean ethics? I don't know. JESSICA: Philosophy [inaudible]. DAVID: Yeah, I personally think that there is cutting-edge and this is on it, but plenty of room for philosophical dialogue on that subject if you can sort of dig Socrates up and ask him about it. [laughter] Yeah, and speaking of philosophy, the other book that I have read essentially to have read it rather than because I was getting a lot out of it was Wittgensteinís Philosophical Investigations where I essentially read it in order to confirm to myself that I had already picked up enough Wittgenstein by osmosis that I didn't really need to read it, which largely true. JACOB: This is the part of the show where we like to reflect on what we took from everything and just wrap things up a little bit. JESSICA: I have one thing written down. We talked a bit about who you are and who you want to be as a person, and how sometimes what you want to do is in conflict with how you think of yourself. Like, when you think of yourself as good at something, it's hard to be bad at it, long enough to learn better. It occurs to me that in our society, we're all about getting to know yourself and then expressing your true self, which is very much a homeostasis more than a homerhesis. But what have we tried not knowing yourself? What if we tried just like, I don't know who I am and then I can surprise myself and have more possibilities. That's my reflection. REIN: All of this discussion about happiness and pleasure, and diversion and striving reminds me a lot of Buddhist philosophy, or what I should say is, it reminds me a lot of my very limited understanding of Buddhist philosophy. Specifically, this idea that you shouldn't judge your life by the outcome of your preferences; that you shouldn't identify yourself with your wants and cling to the outcome of things. You can acknowledge that these things have happened and you can avoid unpleasant things, but you shouldn't be the owner of all of your desires. Instead, what you should do is measure your life by how well you follow the intentions that arise out of your values. JACOB: Yeah. Maybe to put another way, I'm starting to think maybe I could think of myself as the sum of all of the habits I maintain or don't, and try to think of outcome of those habits as what a lagging indicator, I guess, or as a secondary and think more of myself like, ìWell, what are the things that I find I am naturally doing and if I'm not, what can I do to just try to enforce it for myself that I'm going to do that more?î Or maybe I don't care. DAVID: So I'm not finding myself with sort of a single cohesive summation of the conversation, but I've really enjoyed it and there's been a couple of things I'm going to take away from it and mull over a bit more. I really liked the homeostasis versus homeorhesis distinction. I'd obviously heard the first word, but not the second word and so, I'm going to think about that a bit more. Sort of tying onto that, I very much liked Jessica's point of how a clean home isn't really a thing, you can only do cleaning and thinking much more in terms of the ongoing process than trying to think of it as a static goal that you are perfectly maintaining at all times. Slightly orthogonal in relation to that, but I'm also just going to look up Satir as an author and maybe read some of her books. [chuckles] REIN: Yay! DAVID: Because as we have established, always up for more reading. [laughs] JACOB: That should wrap up our Episode 223. I'd like to thank David for joining us and weíll see you next time. Special Guest: David MacIver.

Does the thought of traveling with 4 kids, all under the age of five years old, terrify you? It terrifies Jill Devine. She was supposed to take her girls to see her best friend who lives about 6 hours away, but the trip didn’t happen due to COVID. Jill was sweating leading up to the trip wondering how she was going to travel solo with a 4 and 2-year-old. Marissa and Adam Goldstein aren’t terrified. In fact, they embrace it. Marissa and Adam have two sets of twins under the age of 5: Raya, Efi, Noa, and Eyva. Marissa and Adam love traveling, and they weren’t going to let having children stop them from doing what they loved. So, they made a pledge to keep traveling no matter what! In fact, their oldest twins visited 15 countries before they were potty trained. Their entire family are lovers of travel, food, and community service. The Goldstein’s goal is to help other families find inspiration in their everyday life, whether they’re looking for advice on what to do next or trying to find the will to just get out and go! Their website, Twinsonthegox2, contains helpful tips and tricks when it comes to traveling with kids, among other great parenting content. The Goldstein family split their time living in both Vietnam and Boston. While exploring remote villages in Southeast Asia with their family, they grew a bond with local families and fell in love with the beautiful art forms they have passed down amongst generations. Marissa and Adam wanted to share these traditional handicrafts with a larger audience, give back to the communities they came to love, and build a strong community their selves. So, they launched Rafi Nova! The company originally launched as a travel accessory brand, but as many companies that launched in 2020, pivots had to be made because of COVID-19. They were able to quickly come up with a plan and design for face masks and they continue to improve that design to meet the needs of all individuals, while also donating masks to frontline workers. Marissa joined Jill on the podcast to talk about parenting and traveling with two sets of twins, living in two different countries, the development and launch of their business, and how they are navigating the pandemic. https://www.instagram.com/twinsonthegox2/ https://www.instagram.com/rafinova_go/ Jill would like to acknowledge and recognize the hard work moms put in on the daily. It can be a thankless job at times, and Jill wants these moms to know their worth, so she created the Supermom Shoutout. This week’s Supermom Shoutout goes to Jessica of St. Louis. Deb nominated her and said: Jessica is a friend and rising photographer. She is a single mom of a teenage daughter with epilepsy. She is self-made and self-taught, and truly a fighter and hard worker. She has maintained a home-daycare for years and recently took up photography as a hobby. She is now retiring her home daycare and launching her full-time photography career, JS Photography STL. She also does quite a bit of volunteer work for On Angels Wings. Jessica – YOU are seen and YOU are supported! To nominate a Supermom (or you can nominate yourself) email hello@jilldevine.com. Submit the name of the Supermom, where they're from, and a brief description as to why Jill should shout out this particular Supermom. Two Kids and A Career Website: https://www.jilldevine.com/ Two Kids and A Career Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jilldevine/?hl=en Two Kids and A Career Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JillDevineMedia/ Thank you to our sponsor: Evoke Creative

Sometimes tough and uncomfortable conversations will be had on the podcast. The New York post released an article in September of 2020 about the rise of divorces due to the pandemic: Divorce rates have spiked in the U.S. during the coronavirus pandemic as couples have been stuck at home for months. The combination of stress, unemployment, financial strain, death of loved ones, illness, homeschooling children, mental illnesses, and more has put a significant strain on relationships. In fact, 20 percent of couples who sought divorce who were married within the past five months or less, compared to the just 11 percent in 2019 – doubling the rate. In most situations, individuals don't know where or who to turn to turn to for legal advice. Jill Devine thought it would be ideal to have an expert on the podcast to provide some guidance and knowledge about divorce. Mark Haefner is an Attorney and Managing Partner at Haefner Law Office, LLC: Family Law is what Mark Haefner does.  Having handled over 1,000 family law cases, with the vast majority of them being divorce and custody litigation, Mark has extensive knowledge in the area of family law. Mark married young and started working extremely long hours as a family law attorney after law school. When that marriage ended, he had no desire to have a drawn out, stressful divorce. He had seen what his clients go through every day, and he wanted no part of it. So, Mark streamlined the process so that the paperwork was done, the signatures signed, and the divorce completed as quickly as legally possible. Mark’s journey, having gone through a divorce, being a stepfather in times that were occasionally contentious, and a father to a child that he has been extremely involved with since birth, has given him the ability to truly empathize with his clients.  He is consistently asking “is this what I would want if I was the client?” Mark has written a compassionate guide, Exit Strategy: Understanding & Handling Your Missouri Divorce, to the divorce process that treats the most important issues a spouse needs to understand, especially questions about custody and parenting plans. There are no easy answers to these questions, but you will feel a little better after reading his book. In this week’s episode, Mark and Jill discussed some of the biggest things to consider when it comes to divorce and your options. You can get a free consultation with Mark by calling 314-200-6101. New to Season 4, the Supermom Shoutout! Jill would like to acknowledge and recognize the hard work moms put in on the daily. It can be a thankless job at times, and Jill wants these moms to know their worth. This week’s Supermom Shoutout goes to Jessica of O’Fallon, MO! Her mom, Donna, nominated her and said: I think Jessica Banfield is a Supermom because she is hard working doing with her full-time job and making sure 4 children are doing their schoolwork at the same time. She always puts the kids first in everything. Jessica – YOU are seen and YOU are supported! To nominate a Supermom (or you can nominate yourself) email hello@jilldevine.com. Submit the name of the Supermom, where they're from, and a brief description as to why Jill should shout out this particular Supermom. Two Kids and A Career Website: https://www.jilldevine.com/ Two Kids and A Career Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jilldevine/?hl=en Two Kids and A Career Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JillDevineMedia/ Thank you to our sponsor: Blondin Professional Real Estate

The Passionsitas Project welcomes Jessica Craven from Chop Wood, Carry Water. Jess gives phonebank training and chats about ways to get involved in the final weeks leading up to the November 3 election. Jessica Craven is a community organizer, activist and member of the California Democratic party's County Central Committee. Jessica is the author of "Chop Wood, Carry Water," a daily actions e-mail that's been published five days a week since November of 2016. Her emails provide detailed text and scripts for the everyday person to reach out to their Congress people and Senators to take action on the important issues of the day. She's made it her mission to get regular people more involved with politics on both a federal and local level. Hear Jessica's full episode here. FULL TRANSCRIPT: Passionistas: Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Um, anybody who's been reading our posts, especially lately knows how anxiously I have been about the election and where things are headed. And, uh, our guardian angel spirit guide in this entire process has been our guests today. Uh, Jessica Craven, who does an amazing newsletter, um, which is how we first were introduced to her. It's called chalkboard carry water. We'll let her tell you about that, but it gives you daily actions so that you can be involved politically and make a difference. And, um, and then when we did our summit in August, uh, we asked just to do a workshop that she has called activism one Oh one, and it was an incredible hour where she gave us all these different things that we could do to be involved and help, um, make a difference during the election period. And we had been doing them tirelessly. We've been writing letters, we've been sending postcards. Uh, we have been texting, they've done everything but calling cause we're still a little shy, introverted when it comes to that, but just assures us that even introverts could make calls. So she's going to tell us about that today and a bunch of other things. We're just going to talk with her about what we can all do in the six weeks, 39 days. I think that we have left, um, to make a difference. And she's going to maybe talk a few of us off the Lake, um, anxiety and nervousness, no pressure. Um, but so welcome to our group today, Jessica grade. Jessica Craven:  Thank you. Thank you for having me. Um, thanks both of you. Passionistas: You've been such wonderful advocates and, uh, this is a great group and I'm very glad to be here. And, uh, yeah. Do you want me to start by just talking about the thing that Nancy and I were talking about before we started? Jessica: Okay, well, you know, we, Nancy was saying that she was having some anxiety and I think that a lot of people were having a lot of anxiety because of the news is extremely anxiety provoking right now. And, uh, I was just saying simply that I, my tactic right now is just to stay very, very, very busy. Um, I feel that there is an enormous amount of fear-mongering happening in the news right now. And there is a, um, you know, there is a payoff for Trump and for his side, when we are all freaking out and running around, um, you know, wringing our hands about the fact that he is going to steal the election, because every minute that I'm doing that, I am working to get out the vote. And honestly, I see what's happening right now is a very successful form of voter suppression. They are very successfully getting people to feel like it's hopeless and we're gonna lose cause he's already going to steal the election. And so what's the point. And in that sense, he's a giant bully who is successfully bullying the entire school yard right now with a threat that he can't even possibly carry out. And I know that people read the Atlantic article and I know that people feel that he's going to get all these people to sort of line up and do these horrible things to, um, and I just am not, I'm not there. I actually still have enough faith in the American system as a whole, although parts of it are very broken right now. Um, and I, I subscribed to this wonderful writer or Hubbell who writes a political, uh, newsletter every night. And, um, you know, he, he said exactly this this morning, he was like, it's quite frustrating to see people so quickly buy into this kind of, you know, Trump says all kinds of things. He says insane things all the time. And like, I never believed anything that he says. So I don't know why we're all believing this part so much that he is going to successfully organize a coup right in front of us, that the entire country will participate in, um, or enough to carry it out successfully. It's I have a very sort of, you know, my, my spiritual practice is such that what I, what I have learned to do no matter what is happening in my life that is troubling or scary is to stay in the day and do the thing in front of me that I can do. And that's where the Chop Wood Carry Water comes from is just instead of freaking out about something that might happen in six weeks. Um, what can I do right now? And, and frankly, I'm distressed at the level to which his tactics right now are successful. I'm distressed at how many people I see who normally would be busy making calls right now who have spent their entire days sending frantic emails back and forth about is he going to still be election? Well, yeah, he's going to win the election if we don't work. So work. You know, I mean, as I try to remind people, if Trump were this able to steal an election, he would not have, let us win. In 2018, we would not have won Doug Jones's seat in the Senate. We would not have won the governor seats. We won last year, we flipped to Virginia state house. We flipped essentially the New York state house, although they were Democrats, but they caucused with Republicans. We got them all out. Like we have voted so many bad actors out and nobody, one time has said, Oh, that election wasn't valid. Sorry, people accept the results of an election. Trump won't. But Trump is a malignant narcissist. He's insane. So who cares? I mean, he he's, I won't even begin to list the delusions that guy lives under, but there are a lot of people who would have to cooperate with him. And I fundamentally don't believe they will. Um, and, and whether or not okay, even if they will, there's nothing we can do about it now. But what we can do is wind so overwhelmingly that that's not even a possibility. And if our numbers are enormous, which they absolutely can be, we absolutely have the numbers for it. All indications are that early voting is overwhelmingly on our side. So just keep it up. Don't let this total loser, baby man distract you from saving the country. He's seen, does not work the gum on the bottom of my shoe. This man and people are giving entire days and weeks to worrying about what he's going to do, who cares? He's a loser, the guy is a loser. So let's just make sure that we have so many votes that even he, with his total delusions and delusions of grand jury or whatever else he has cannot lie. I keep thinking of the inauguration crowds. You know, he said over and over again, that it was the biggest inauguration crowd ever, but history and all of us know that it wasn't. So he can say we're all cheating or we're all, but everybody else will know that that's not the case. And frankly, I don't think that the military is so behind them at this point that they're going to enable him in a coup it's just not going to happen. So sorry. I'm very passionate about this because my job is to recruit people into action. My job is to get people busy making phone calls, which is a proven tactic for winning elections, right? Sending letters, sending postcards, texts, making these things work. And when people are wringing their hands in this kind of like fear mania, they're not doing that. So I just got off the phone with, I mean, often about call with flip the West with their team of people who were working to flip the Senate. It's an enormous team of people who are so committed and working so hard. Don't let all of these people work so hard and then give all of our attention to the, the ninny and the white house instead, you know, come and join us in the work. We will win in the work. So that is my sermon. Sorry. I'm just drinking my tea. So I'm very thankful. Passionistas: It's, no, it's excellent. We need to hear it. Yeah. We need to hear it, everybody already saying great advice and thank you. Jessica: It is true. I mean, I wake up every day, I feel like totally panicked. And then I go through the list in my head like, Oh, am I freaked out about this? Now this now I'm going to go, Oh, to see a lecture. And then I roll out of bed and I pick up my posts in my list and I just start writing and I wait until I can get onto the texting. And I start flexing and I feel better, you know? Yeah. Action is the antidote. And it is every time. And you know, I'm doing these activism one-on-one classes. And so many people were coming, which is great. So part of my job is just to let other people know how many people are doing this work right now. So w in my workshop, you know, you heard me talk about the drop of water, right. And it's very easy for us all to feel like that individual drop of water, like, Oh, who cares? I'm just, I'm so small. And if I just make like one hour of calls, who cares, like it's so insignificant, but you have to remember all the other drops of water who are also doing their little jobs. And when you get that many drops of water together, that's, as I say, when you start to carve stone, like then you are participating in something so much bigger than yourself. And there are a lot of people doing this work. I am telling you because I do it with them. And I see them. And I hear about the groups that are phone banking and post carding and sending letters to voters in Milwaukee and just little groups that have got brilliant ideas for ways to help and are doing them. And, uh, the news doesn't talk about it. And I remember before 2018, the news didn't talk about it either. I was like, am I crazy? Because I feel like with this much stuff happening, we are going to win, but everyone keeps saying we're going to lose, but I see what people are doing. How could we possibly lose? And we weren't. Right. But the news is not going to say, Oh, we're going to win because that doesn't get clicks. And we, these little, you know, we middle-aged women, activists, we definitely don't get clicks. Right? Like nobody cares about us. We're middle-aged women. But the work that we're doing is massive. And we are going to save the country. Don't get me wrong. That is what is going to happen. And the news will not carer until after it's happened. And then they'll give the credit somewhere else because no one wants to credit people like us, but it doesn't matter. We're not doing it for the credit. We're doing it for. Right. Right. So who cares? But believe me, I remember this from 2018, no one covered the resistance back then either, even after the fact, no one covered us, but it's fine. We're still going to do the work and we're still going to win. You can attribute it to the tooth fairy for all I care. I don't really care, but we are doing the work and we know how to do this work. And let me tell you, people are doing this work in vast numbers. So, but that's not what I came here to talk about. I came here to talk about phone banking, but I just, you know, I get passionate because it's important. I want to wear a big t-shirt that just says less news, less news, more action. Because honestly, even I can get sucked into Twitter. And after five minutes on Twitter, I want to kill myself. It's over. Right. But that's not reality. That's Twitter. And there's, uh, you know, there are aspects of reality on it, but there's also a lot that is not real on it. The work is real, you know, talking to voters on the phone is real. I've phoned banks several times already this week. And when I get someone on the phone who was like on the fence and I convinced them, that's real. And, uh, you know, you guys and the people doing this work, we are real. And we, we will make a difference. So I guess I'm here to do the opposite of what Trump is doing today, right? Like I want to power people and give them their faith back and remind them that they have power. And that, you know, you have agency, you can make a difference. Every single person listening to this, it's hugely powerful. Don't let Trump take that away from you. He doesn't deserve to have anything of yours. Nothing. Passionistas: Thank you. I needed to, I needed to hear that. Thank you. Thank you. I had one other question for you about something I read this morning. Did you read that Esquire magazine article about, um, maybe people who can, should vote in person? Jessica: I didn't. Okay. Passionistas:  Because it was just saying that it was just that, you know, this whole, his whole scam right now is based on, you know, mail in votes and de-legitimizing the mail in votes. So what do you think about that? Do you think it it's better? If people can take the chance and go boat in person, is it better to mail it in person? Passionistas: I don't know. I think that I know in California, we were told that if we mailed our ballots by October 10th, that they would be counted by election day. Um, but again, we've had so many elections where the results were not determined for weeks after and nobody cried foul. No one said that election is not valid. Katie Porter, her election was determined like two weeks after the fact, no, she's there in Congress kicking . I mean, Trump can say what he wants. It requires more than him saying that something is fraudulent. And frankly, I really don't see Mitch McConnell as awful as he is. He's he made a statement today saying like, we're going to respect the results of the election. He's not going to go down that road. I just don't. I mean, so I think vote, however you feel I'm voting by mail. I'm going to mail my ballot right after I get it. And I'm going to track my ballot. Just vote. I don't think when we vote is as much at issue. If it makes you feel better. Sure. Go vote in person. Most States have early voting. We go to the grocery store. I don't actually think that voting is like a super dangerous activity. But if you're someone who's highly at risk vote by mail. Yeah. I don't think it matters. Just vote, vote and track your ballot, make a voting plan and get three friends and family to vote. Especially those who probably wouldn't have voted unless you prompted them. Because honestly your friends and family are more likely to vote. If you ask them to then if I, some stranger calls them, you know, this is relational organizing. It's really critical right now that we each take responsibility for getting three people who maybe wouldn't have voted otherwise to vote. I'm working on my niece. That's my, that's my goal. No, she's one person who is right now is thinking of writing into candidate and I'm working on her with everything I know to get her not to do that. And it doesn't matter the reasons, this is just really important to me. And if I fail, I'll work on someone else. But if we all do that, think about the power of that. Passionistas: You bring up a good point too, which is you can track your ballot once you send it. And everybody should do that just to… Jessica: Not in every state, not in every state. Sorry to interrupt you. But in many States you can. Yes. Yes. Passionistas: Okay. And where do you find, where do you go to do that? Jessica: Secretary of State website? The secretary of state website is really your friend. You just Google your state secretary of state, and then all of your questions are, are, can be answered there. So, and yes, in California, they make it very easy to sign up where you can actually, you'll all get a text message when they received my ballot and the text message when it's been, um, you know, entered into the system. So I don't know that every state does it as well, but look into your state and find out. And another really important thing about voting by mail is to follow the instructions very carefully. Yes. Yeah. If you sign, if you sign in the wrong place or you sign your signature sloppily and it doesn't match what they have on record, or you don't steal the inside envelope or whatever it is, you do wrong. That vote will be disqualified. So I need to make sure that you follow the directions very carefully. Well, and in Pennsylvania, in particular with this whole naked ballot thing, if you mail in your vote by mail ballot, put it in the inner envelope, because if you don't put it in that inner envelope, the secrecy sleeve, they will not count it, which is absurd. But you know, we have to work with a lot of servers right now. So yes. Being educated about what the rules are in your state is incredibly important. Passionistas: Particularly if you live in a swing state or voter suppression state, right? Jessica: Yeah. And like, I'm going to, I'm getting together with some elderly relatives. I told them once they get their vote, that we're going to go to lunch, we're going to take a risk and you go to an outdoor restaurant and I'm going to walk them through it. I'm going to make friends to do it exactly. Right. And then we're going to go wherever they can go to drop it off. We're going to drive there with them. We're going to make sure. Passionistas: So if you know anybody that might not, you don't think a hundred percent is going to understand the process because it's so different than what they used to offer to help them. Jessica: Yep. Yes, absolutely. That is exactly right. Yeah. And elderly people. Don't always, a lot of times when we phone bank, we'll find someone who has, you know, 81 years old. Yes. I want to provide them, but I don't have internet. I mean, not everybody has internet. Right. Um, and so those people need, sometimes some of them to show up at their door with a form or, you know, help ordering the form for them and having it sent to them or whatever. But yes, I think we all need to think of the older people, the less tech savvy people and reach out to them. Passionistas: Yeah. Yeah. And as Lisa said in the comments, also, if you add a stamp, even though a lot of votes on ballots, don't require a stamp. If you add a stamp, it will make sure that it's treated as first-class mail. Yeah. So that's how that plus what supports the post office, which is exactly win-win. Yeah. Jessica: Yeah, totally. And you know, and try to remember, I just want people to remember that the majority of America desperately wants Trump out of office. The majority, like, yes, he has got a very devoted small following, but the rest of the country will, is desperate to have him out. So people are going to work very hard to vote and make their friends vote. It's just, I know there's so much fear. And I, I mean, look, I share it, but I also, I want us to have faith in each other. And I want us to have faith in this country. It's not broken fully yet. It's very broken, but I still believe there's enough of an infrastructure in place that we can have a fair election, as long as enough of us show up. This is not an election that anyone can sit out. We need numbers. Passionistas:  So can we talk about phone banking now? Jessica: Excellent. Passionistas: I want to say one thing though, I today started to, um, to write postcards for Jon Ossoff. You know, him for everybody who doesn't know is running for Senate in Georgia. And I really wanted to point out that the thing I love about him, which is his hashtag is his name is Jon Ossoff, O S S O F F. And his hashtag is hashtag #VoteYourOssoff. Passionistas: Oh, he deserves to win. Jessica: So I just wanted to give him a little plug. That's great. Georgia is doing really well. Stacey Abrams released some statistics today about, uh, early vote and vote by mail and Georgia. And it's already off the charts with, you know, typically voters who vote our way. So she's been working her butt off in that state. People are working very hard. I have a lot of faith. I have a lot of faith. Passionistas: That made us all feel better. So, um, so now what do we do? How do we make it happen? Passionistas: Well, let's talk about fun banking for a second, because this is the, you know, this is the big challenge right now. So first of all, people are voting already, right? In a lot of States, the election has started. We are officially in the election and starting next week, that's it like it's election month. We are fully in, GOTV get out the boat. Right. So, um, all of the big organizations are having their big weekends of like training and phone banking starting next weekend. So Y Mo you probably all know this, but why do we phone bank? Why can't we all just send postcards until the election? Because postcards increased voter turnout somewhere between one and a half to 2%. Right. Which is a nice little bump in turnout. Um, as I always say, in my workshop, Donald Trump won in Wisconsin by seven tenths of 1%, right? So we're not going to sneeze at one and a half percent because that would have won us Wisconsin. He won the entire election by 77,000 votes. You guys, it's just not a lot of votes, um, or you peoples are very much trying to stop saying you guys. Um, but, um, so those postcards about one and a half to 2% bump don't forward letters, which are amazing. And I know you are doing those as well, and I've done a bunch of my husband does them. Those letters are great. They increased turnout by about 3.4%, right? That's their studies have shown. So phone banking is a significantly more than either of those things, right? Phone banking, talking to a person, voice to voice can increase turnout by maybe twice what the vote forward letters can when we're lucky. So again, these don't sound like huge percentages, but that's more than enough if we can get enough people on the phone. And, um, there's a great phone banking video that I'm playing in my workshop now that, um, this woman is just talking about why we fund bank. And it's not as many people think to persuade Trump voters. And I think that people think that they're going to be forced to get on the phone and argue with somebody like their uncle in Alabama. Who's, you know, got the mag ahead. You're not going to, first of all, campaigns are generally having you call lists of people that they think, or at least potential supporters. They're not sending you to call heavily Republican list. That's just counterproductive. It's a waste of their time. But even when I do get somebody on the phone who is just like, you know, girl Trump or whatever, or I only vote Republicans, the response is thank you so much. Have a great day. And we hang up the phone. Our job is to find our people reluctant Democrats, who almost never vote independents, who are persuadable, um, declined to States. People who are just low propensity voters or people who want to vote, but are fuzzy on the process. Like, yeah, I do want to vote, but I still haven't gotten my absentee ballot. And they're like busy doing something else. So they haven't taken care of that yet, but we can help them. So most of what we do when we phone bank is help people who want to be helped if they don't want to be helped, they'd get off the phone. But it's not about trying to persuade someone who has totally drunk the Kool-Aid and is like screaming about things that are just, you know, upsetting. And we don't want to talk about those. People are not who we're trying to persuade. We don't need them. It is a waste of time. The campaign doesn't want you wasting your time with them. So when I get someone like that on the phone, again, I'm going to say, thank you so much, have a great day quick. I'm going to Mark them as strong opposed. And the campaign's going to take them off of their list, right? They don't want people like that on their lists either. They want to maximize their time and our time by looking for people who are potential votes. So part of what we're doing when we're phone banking is just finding those people and sort of sorting them into piles of like, that's not someone who's going, gonna vote for us. That's someone who maybe they definitely need more attention. That person is so into us that like, we're going to put them in this pile over here. We're not going to bother with them again until the day before the election, just to make sure they voted because there are definite supporter and a high propensity voter. Then we're also right now doing stuff, we call it cleaning the lists. So if for those of you who like to clean, we're basically just making sure everybody's phone number is still the same. You know, we're calling lists that are from elections two years ago, mostly. So some of that information is outdated. Sometimes people no longer live in that place or their phone number has changed, or they've moved. Sometimes they're deceased. Sometimes they've changed parties, whatever their thing is. So that's what we're doing. We're sending that data back to the campaign. So we're both gathering data from the voter about who they support, where they are and their thoughts. And we are bringing data back to the campaign. Hey, that person now lives in California. So take them off the list. And that's the wrong number. It's disconnected. Take that off. This person wants to volunteer, call them. This person wants to drive people to the polls, reach out to them. This person wants a yard sign. So it's a lot of data exchange. And, but there is something about calling and talking to someone voice to voice, which every time I run a phone bank, I have a volunteer say, I just talked to somebody who was on the fence. And we talked about like our kids and healthcare. And by the end, they they're going to vote for Biden or, you know, so it's not like every person we talk to is a massive victory. But again, we think about our own tiny contribution. And if I phone bank for an hour and I get three people or two people who were on the fence and are maybe going to support my person, now I have done my job. Other than that, it's a lot of not home. It's a lot of leaving voicemails. When, when the campaigns want you to leave voicemails, they do sometimes. And they don't sometimes. Um, if you're nervous about using your own phone number, which a lot of people are, a lot of the campaigns now are using something called an automatic dialer or predictive dialer. You can just make sure that you use one of those and it all goes through a computer program. So your phone number never comes into it. And you literally just sit there on hold until somebody picks up and it's great. And you actually talk to more people. And, um, it's all very scripted. And I guess the last thing I'll say is that in my experience between texting and phone banking, I mean, I love canvassing. That's awesome, but we're not doing that right now. Um, I actually find people are much nicer over the phone. My craziest meanest responses from voters have always been, um, texting. I actually don't text all that often because people are so much nicer on the phone. I would just rather deal with the, the politeness. I had someone today just tell me to F off on a text bank. And I'm like, Oh, I had asked him was how he, you heard of the candidate. No one would do that over the phone, but on texts, do they feel like they can do that? So I like calling people tend to be nicer, especially when I speak with a smile, which is one of my big tips for phone banking is smile talking, which is as a woman, I don't like to be told to smile, but in my experience that when I smile talk, it's the same thing that anybody who does any work on the phone knows like, I sound different when I'm talking like this. And when I'm talking like this, it's just different. So when I kind of talk with a smile and, and I, myself, I'm I'm, I am me on the phone. I don't pretend to be somebody else. I act like myself. Um, if I make a mistake, I say, Oh God, I'm so sorry. I'm a volunteer. And I'm, you know, I'm a mom and I've been doing homeschool all day and I'm tired. You know, that's how people actually connect with us. They relate with us through our humanity. So, um, I emphasize the fact that I'm a volunteer. I recognize the fact that I'm barging in on people. And I say even sometimes I hate when people call me, but this election is so important and people appreciate it. So, um, I just encourage people to try it. We really do need more people on the phone. And, and, and the last thing really I will say is, you know, my daughter is very obsessed with “Hamilton” right now, right? So we're talking about the revolutionary war, revolutionary war a lot. And you know, we talk about the fact that during the revolutionary war, the people who fought to found this country like died in massive numbers, right? To sort of defend the idea of our freedom and eventually our democracy, right? They died to form this country or they lost legs, or they were blinded, or, you know, people suffered horribly. If I am being asked to get on the phone and be a little bit uncomfortable to literally save our country, we are literally talking about saving this country. Then I am going to do that. And I am pretty sure that all of you can, I know YouTube can cause your, you know, the worst that can happen. What does it mean to me? I get to keep my legs. You know, I don't have to walk through a snowy valley with leather straps wrapped around my feet. I mean, yeah. The stories from the revolutionary war pretty normally we're just being asked to make some phone calls. We can do it. You can do it. All of you can do it. I will turn it on to my phone banks. Yeah. How do people go to your phone beds? Well, um, you can there's uh, let's see. Do you guys do like show notes or anything like that after this? Will you post some information? Passionistas: Yeah. And we can put you post things in the chat and everything. Yeah. Jessica: So you can post my email address. Uh, the, the chop wood carry water, email address, see WCW daily actions@gmail.com. People can email me and I can add you to my big list. I invite people to a bunch of phone banks and you can come or not come as you see fit. But every phone bank I do either I or somebody else will train you. Um, you always do them on Zoom. They're all remote. So you're with a group of people. And if somebody is mean you can come back to the group and just say like, Oh, somebody just called me the devil. And then everybody laughs and people send you hard emojis, and then you go on, right. Um, and if you have a victory, then you come back to the zoom and you share that. And people are really excited for you. Uh, so you can do that. I highly recommend flick the West if you're concerned, particularly if you want for RBG, if you, if you're concerned about flipping the Senate flip, the West is an extraordinary organization. They do great bone bank trainings, like four times a week. Um, they just launched a training called demystifying phone banking for geo TV. That is apparently amazing. Um, there were these women who do a phone bank training called bone banking for introverts, which I can provide a link for. Um, and that's supposed to be great, actually, it's on my Google doc. You, you have access to my group. So it's in their phone banking for introverts. That's supposed to be great. Um, you know, it's one of those things like you'll try it once or twice, and then you'll be like, Oh, this is actually just mostly kind of boring. Like mostly I'm just getting people who aren't home and it's model that exciting, but it does feel so good when you get somebody who needed your help. So those are a few of the ways. And I mean, my God, you can just Google like phone bank for Biden or, you know, there's million ways to get involved, swing left. Um, flippable any number of organizations can guide you to phone banking, but, um, you can post the link to my Google doc, which has a gazillion phone banks in it. If po choice is your thing planned Parenthood does phone banking. If environment is your thing, three fifty.org does phone banking. So there's a million ways in, and they'll all basically take you to the same kind of event. You know, we're not reinventing the wheel. This is something that we've all done for a long time and it works. And you know, scientists say that getting out of your comfort zone is actually very good for you. People who get out of their comfort zone regularly actually live longer. So, you know, this is an opportunity for us all to do something that we don't want to do, but that is good for us and good for our country. How exciting is that? Passionistas: That's good. Yeah. And I don't think anybody wants to look back on November 4th and wish they had done more. That is for sure. Jessica: That is for sure. And that's what this great. I should I'll, I'll get you the link to the video too. And maybe you can post it in the chat after this great three minute video about phone banking, but she says that she's like, yes, it's uncomfortable, but you know, what will really be uncomfortable is waking up the morning after the election and finding out that we still have Trump in office. Like that will be devastating. And I definitely don't want to wake up the morning after and think I could have done, I could have done more. And I I'm happy to say, I am not going to wake up and say that, but I, I, you know, I don't think that anyone wants to feel that way. Passionistas: Yeah. So, yeah. Jessica: And it feels good to be part of a win. You'll love it. You'll love the feeling of having helped us win. Yeah. It's a wonderful feeling. Passionistas: And I should say this wasn't something you've done all your life. I mean, this is something that you chose to do in recent years and you've educated yourself and now you're really comfortable doing these things, but it's not like, I just want people to know, like, it's easy to sometimes look at somebody who's talking like this and say like, Oh, well, but you know, you've dedicated your career to this. Like, this is something that you came to in after 2016 is not really opt in. Passionistas: Right. And so you can, you can make the choice to make the change in your life to make this a priority. Jessica: Absolutely. I am not a, I'm a volunteer. I'm not, uh, I, you know, I mean, I have Patrion sponsors, but like I'm not paid by anybody. Um, and I only ever phoned bank during presidential elections before Trump was elected. So yeah. And I think people come to my workshop. I always tell the story of Sally. She came to my workshop a couple of months ago and she, you know, my age, very, you know, just by, I don't know what she does, but definitely does not work in politics. And she was like, I mean, I will try it once, but I'm telling you, I'm going to hate it. And I'm dyslexic. I can't read those scripts and I'm going to suck at it, but I'll do it one time because you're telling me I should. And she came to my phone bank and God love her. Ended up staying on. After we all got off the zoom, she was like, I'm still calling. She got us three volunteers her first time out and then just started putting banking all the time. And now I don't even hear from her anymore because she's just off phone banking. She found out she loved it and she was good at it. And she was positive. She would not be. So for some people, it really is underbelly uncomfortable, but you won't know until you try. And for most people it will not be unbearable. Um, and, and if you find out that it is, at least you tried, at least you gave it one try, but for 90% of us will be like, huh? I mean, it's, you know, I'd rather be taking a bubble bath, but you know, I'll do it, bring the phone into the bathroom phone, into the bathroom. Passionistas: I obviously haven't phone banked yet, but I have been texting and you're right. People can be really harsh on texting. Um, but the other day I got a text, you know, the first question I was supposed to ask was, can we count on your support? And, uh, and I got this really like inappropriate response back. And I was gonna just, you know, send back the thanks, have a good day. And then I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. And so I forget how I replied, but I kind of replied like, what are your issues kind of thing. And, and, you know, it felt not to be judgmental, but it felt like, like a 16 year old boy texted me back. Um, and he was like, if I get a hell, yeah, I'll go to provide me. I'm like, how much, how long am I going to let this person jerk me around? And I was like, doesn't really hurt me just to text back and see what he says. And so I texted back hell. Yeah. And then he texted back and he was like, wow, you must really want me to vote for bud light. Cause I'd stuck with it for these few comments now it's like, yeah, I do is really important. And I gave like, check the rate registration email, and it ended up in this like really long chat with this person. And by the end they're like, all right, well, awesome. It didn't hurt. It was like, you know what? I can let this person intimidate me because they think they're cute and funny interview noxious. Or I can just see where it goes and give it five minutes of my time. And it felt really good at the end. It was like, all right, well, that's not the back in line. What's next. It's amazing. Jessica: I did a lot of texting with Open Progress for a long time. And you would see these conversations that people would post in the Slack that were so incredible where someone starts out very mean and hostile. And then when you send them a reply that lets them know that you're a real person, half of the time, they're like, Oh, I did not know that you were real person. Like they genuinely think you're a bot. And then once they find out you're real, sometimes they will actually have a conversation. And yeah, sometimes there were some people who are so unplugged from politics that they're basically like, I don't, I don't really care. Like what's the difference. And if you're like, okay, this is actually really important to me. They'll, they're like, all right, fine. I'll do it for you. Like I, I had that experience before and, you know, whatever, whatever gets them. Yeah. Well, anyway, I don't want to share that story publicly, but I mean, whatever gets somebody within reason to vote, you know? Yeah. That is just a persuasion. It's wonderful. That's great. And yeah, texting can be really effective. Sometimes it does require a bit of a longer conversation and sometimes you got to get creative. I saw one texting conversation where the person they were texting with was started talking about Fortnite and the volunteer fortunately knew a lot about Fortnite. So she started responding with these very like insider comments about Fortnite and she won his vote because of that. Whereas I would have had no clue. So, I mean, it was just kind of good luck that he got her and then he was like, you're amazing. I'm going to vote. It was a whole thing. So, you know. Yeah. But that's what it's all about. Right. It's all about reminding everybody that we're all the same common interests. We all worry about similar things. Right. I mean, we all want our kids to grow up in a safe world and we, you know, most of us worry about the same things, not all of us, but generally I can find an area of connection with a person on the phone. Passionistas: Yeah. And I have to say both ways, like I've also, I started yesterday morning texting with a friend and feeling really angry and down about Republicans and Trump supporters. And in the course of texting yesterday, I had a few people who are like, I'm voting Trump and you know, you just say, all right, great, thanks for letting me know, have a good day. And they lived, there were a few people that are back on like half a nice day. And thanks for checking, you know, and it was just not like, I don't understand the fundamentals of the decision to vote for the man, but it doesn't mean everybody who is, is the person. And it kind of just re renewed my faith and the other side, like, I still can't, can't forgive anybody that's going for them. But at least I felt like it was a reminder. Like there are people too, and they, some of them are really nice people, you know, they just are misguided for whatever reason. Um, so in that regard, it made me feel slightly more optimistic about some of the people in that. Jessica: Exactly. Oh, that's good. Yeah. But I couldn't turn them that texting is hard too, because I think they cast a very, very wide net with texting. So I think that you will tend to get more Republicans. Um, I feel like phone banking. They're a little bit more judicious about where they're sending you to call and I'm not sure why that is, but it's, it's just, I think because they can cast a wide net texting. They do. So you do, you end up getting a lot of people who were like Trump 2020, and you're just like, Oh my God, really? But calling, I don't get that. I don't know that I've ever had somebody just yelled Trump 2020 at me. Okay. Passionistas: Oh yeah. You can definitely get that yelled in the, it may just be my imagination, but I honestly feel like between last week and this week I've been texting in Arizona mostly. And um, since RPG passed away, I swear to God more people there have been fewer Trump, 2020s, interesting work and more either neutral or onboarded by which, because the first couple of days I did it within her, it was like really depressing. And it was like 90% of the people were Trump 2020. I mean, and take me off the list. And then she passed away everything every time since then, it's been like a very small fraction of the people. So maybe I'm just trying to keep myself positive or maybe there is some shifts that happened. Jessica: Um, well, yeah, I think you're going to actually like phone banking. I do feel like, I feel like Is very comparatively is very draining and phone banking. I find very uplifting. So, um, I, I'm not sure everybody feels that way, but for me, I tend to get depressed when I'm texting. I think because there are so many Trump people because they're casting such a wide net and calling it's not, I don't know. I always feel pretty uplifted afterwards. Passionistas: Wow. I'm definitely going to try it. I'm terrified of it. I am too, but I'll do it. Jessica: Um, come to my Biden phone bank on Monday. It's it's great. Passionistas: Okay. Yeah. It's not Monday. I can't Monday thought through with all that. Jessica: I'll send you my whole schedule. Yeah, definitely. We'll definitely get, we are going to commit right now that yes, we're committed. Passionistas: I definitely check out the Flip the West trainings. They're really good there. Those are definitely in my Google doc. Also, you can post them for your people wherever that's fabulous. And Passionistas: Does anybody listening have any questions? Just pop them in the comments and we'll pass them on. So just, do you have any thoughts on flipping the Senate and whether that's going to happen or what, what do you, what's your gut it's going to happen? Jessica: It has to happen. Yes. It's going to happen. I mean, you know, none of us can see into the future, but I believe it's going to happen. Um, the polling in Iowa is extremely good. The polling in Kansas is really good. Um, pulling in Arizona is outstanding. Obviously. Uh, Georgia is somewhat competitive. Alaska is competitive. Um, Montana is somewhat competitive. I mean, I think we still have a little bit of work to do there. Uh, Colorado is extremely competitive. North Carolina is competitive. There's a lot of seats. We just need four, if we can win the presidency. Um, and we need to hold Doug Jones seat. But, um, yeah, I mean, it's, we have a lot of money. There's been a lot of money raised. So financially we are destroying the other side. I actually think, uh, Jamie Harrison is to win Lindsey. Graham was on Twitter, crying about how desperate for money he is, you know, he's awful. And I think he's going to get punished at the ballot box and Jamie. Passionistas: Yeah. I think if we get him in McConnell out then… Jessica: McConnell, I mean, we get McConnell out by winning the majority. McConnell will then become a minority leader and that will actually almost be worse for him. Yeah, no. And I mean, look, I'd love to see Amy McGrath win, but that's a, that's a tough, you know, that's a tough seat, but it doesn't matter if we win the Senate for me, that's enough. That's enough. I don't care. Mitch McConnell can crawl off into obscurity and you know, I don't even want to start all back under his wing. I shouldn't say on Facebook, but yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, flip the West is a great organization. If you want to flip Senate seats, I really recommend them very highly. And um, yeah, we should all be working on that very, very hard because if we flip the Senate, I feel that that will bring us also Biden. Um, and, and you know, if Trump steals the election, but doesn't have the Senate, he can kick and scream all he wants. He's still not going to have really much he can do. So I don't think that's going to happen, but I'm just pointing out that it is another way that we can protect ourselves. So, um, but yeah, I think we're going to do it. I know we're going to do it. We're going to flip the Senate. We're going to hold the house. We're going to beat Trump and we're going to flip a whole bunch of state legislatures. It is going to happen, mark my words. Passionistas: You heard it here. Jessica: People also, if, if we flip the Senate, it's harder for Trump to claim you won. Right? Passionistas:  Right. Jessica: Well, that's, that's the thing is that in order for him to claim that he actually won, he has to say that every election in the country was invalid at which point, okay. Then that's just chaos. Then what do we do then? Like, we don't have elections anymore because we're holding elections the same way we always have. So you can't have one and not the other, this is why it's not going to happen. He can't it's, it's not just ignore him. Okay. I rarely  talk about this. I'm going to say something right now that I rarely, rarely, almost never talk about, but my dad was a filmmaker. Right? He made horror films. This is something I do not talk about, but it's applicable here. He made a movie called “Nightmare on Elm Street.” Right. And I don't know if you've ever seen it. Probably some people have and some people haven't, but there's, you know, the bogeyman is Freddy Krueger. And in the end, the way the woman in the film beats him, her whole thing is you turn your back on them and you take away their energy. And then they literally just evaporate. And I'm not comparing Trump to Freddy Krueger. I actually, so much of his energy from us, you know? And so my whole thing with him is just a screen. I don't give him, I don't talk about him. I don't read his tweets. I don't re I don't listen to him talk. He does not exist for me to the best of my ability, because what he wants is to exist for all of us all the time. So, um, turn your back on him. He's just Freddy Krueger. He is, uh, he is, defeatable just like further Krueger was and just like everybody is defeatable, he's not a supernatural being, he's just a human politician. So, um, that is the, probably the last time for 10 years that I will talk about that publicly again. But I just wanted to Passionistas: I'll say it. Yeah. I always think of, um, since we're using movie references, I always think of “Labyrinth.” When she finally realized that realizes it and says that line, you have no power over me. Jessica: Right. Right, right. Right. So like, why am I giving you of my energy? It's a classic abuser and abused relationship at this point. And we as women, especially, you know, the, the middle-aged women who are running this army right now, it is our job to say, like you can't the second I turned my back on you, you have no power over me. And we are working very, very, very hard and we will demand. And this is a female business. We are fighting the patriarchy I could go on. But like, our job is to not be bullied by this man. And the way we are not bullied is we get on those darn phones and we text and we write and we call and we talk to our friends and family and we get people to vote. And that is how we defeat this man. We women. Yeah. And especially these almost all women. Yeah. Passionistas: And especially in honor of RPG, since it says he's going to replace her, he thinks that he can say, I'm replacing her with a woman and we're all stupid. I'm going to be like, Oh, that's great. I'm fine. He's destroying her legacy by planting, whichever one of these, your, so we need to fight harder in her memory, in her honor to be the women that, you know, don't, don't stand for it.   Jessica: Right. And he can't destroy her legacy. He can't destroy it if we don't let him. Yeah. Yeah. Her legacy is in us to win. That is how we carry her legacy on is we win. We destroy him at the ballot box. And uh, and then who's destroying who at that point, when he can't destroy her legacy, again, her legacy is so much bigger than him. She's worth a million of him literally. Right? Passionistas: Yeah. Did you see his visit too? Jessica: I just, I did. And this is the thing I want people to remember is that when you take him out of his little supporter bubble, America hates him. And it's really easy for us to forget that because all the press shows us is his supporter bubble. I don't know why, but that is what they choose to cover. But the majority of the country hates him. So it is when you take him out of that bubble, it's the same thing with the town hall he did last week. People don't, he's awful and people know what Americans are not stupid. So that is why I just want people to stop watching news. Yeah. And do the work. That's how it was fed. Passionistas: The town hall was fascinating because fascinating. You couldn't see most people's mouse because they had their masks on their eyes were. So every answer was like, every person's eyes were like, that's not what I asked you. Or like you're a or whatever it was, but just like in their eyes. Yeah. Really interesting. Yeah. Jessica: And he's just, you know, he never lets himself be in those situations, but as we get closer to the election, he will. And he has to, and yeah. I mean, yeah. Passionistas: I was going to say, what's your thought on how the debate's going to go next week? Jessica: I don't know. And I don't care quite frankly. I mean, honestly, I don't really care again, like to me, that's all part of the, the press, the end of the show, like the circus, like, I mean, I know who I'm voting for and there's obviously no question. Like, we all know we don't even need these debates. I don't know if there was an undecided of Oregon left and if there is good, the debates, right, right. That's great. And they should watch them. I'm not, I am not. I mean, if anyone really has a question right now about who is more fit to be president than they're insane, quite frankly, so sorry if I'm offending anybody, but not in this area, then we lost them a long time ago. I probably lost them in the first part of this podcast. But I think, I think that, you know, Trump will be insane and crazy and Biden will hopefully, uh, I think Biden is going to do great Biden. Hasn't been doing great. And Trump is destroys himself every time he opens his mouth. So yeah, but I will not be watching. I can't watch Trump. I don't, I don't watch him. Freddy Krueger. Passionistas: No, it's really, it's good advice. It's I do it to myself because I feel like I need to stay informed, but I guess I have all the information I need right now. Yeah. Jessica: I don't think, and you're not getting informed by him anyway. You're getting lied to so it's not information. Yeah. Yeah. Passionistas: No, for me, it's not about informed about what he, he is saying or doing. It's more like we watch at least an hour of Fox news every day. Oh God. Oh yeah. Because it's really interesting to hear how the other side is getting brainwashed. I don't know what the talking points are and what's avoided. So it's, it actually is really interesting in the context of this, like talking to people and texting people or having conversations with people that I know that might be on the fence. It's like, I, I understand like if you, if you buy into that at all, like Fox is brilliant at making it seem real and logical, you know? Um, so you know, it, sometimes it makes you think like, wow, am I is brainwashed by the other side as these people are that this side has it, it makes sense if you're crazy, if this medic Nazi, this makes sense. You know? Um, so it's just interesting. I can only do it in short skirts, but we do watch a bit every day. Um, and, uh, and you see you, it just gives you, I mean, all you see is Portland burning the block of Portland that's burdened, which makes it seem like if you buy into that agenda, it makes it seem like the country's role, unless you stop and say, it keeps showing me the same law of Portlands over and over. Or we'll say like April 21st, 2020. It's like, though that didn't happen yesterday. It it's just interesting from, from that perspective to, um, to kind of just keep an eye on what's what the dialogue is. Um, but then it gets like insanely frustrating and I either have to leave or I get angry. So I do it in little, little spurts. Yeah. Jessica: You're way more emotionally resilient than me. I couldn't do it. Yeah. I can't do it. I can't do it. I don't know. Maybe I'm just more of a masochist, but I think we should end this the way we started, which is, I agree. I am hopeful that there are enough, strong-willed good people out there that are going to vote the right way and convince as many people as possible to do it. And all we can do is, do, do as much as get up every day before the time we have, you know? Um, so you know, we thank you because you really have, um, we've learned so much from you and you really do inspire us. And, and now what, you can get a God willing more than you've been to try and get some other people to join us. Yes. I think flip the West even has the training tonight. They have, I think every Tuesday and Thursday, twice a day. So yeah. Check them out, go check them out, come, come join me at one of mine. They're short and easy. And uh, yeah, it's like, one of those come on in the water is fine situation, but of activism one-on-ones coming up this week. So if anyone wants to come and do a one hour free workshop, that'll give you other ways you can help, uh, you know, email me and I'll send you the schedule. I've got one in about an hour. Actually. I've got one at five o'clock tonight. Passionistas: Yeah. Cool. So the same, the same email address as before. And they can reach out to you and then be, yeah. Jessica: And I'll send them the Zoom registration. Like I've got one at 5:00 PM tonight, Pacific time. And then, you know, one on Saturday, one on Sunday, a couple of next week. So yeah. Passionistas: And we have, like we said, we have done Jessica's workshop as part of our summit. And it's amazing. There's so many different things you can do that are in your comfort zone. If you are afraid to do one thing or another, we get it. Jessica: You know, we're not trying to pressure anybody into doing anything they don't want. There are enough things you can do. I just said, even if it's, it makes a difference of 1%, that's huge. So do what you feel comfortable doing and get used to it. You know, I think I feel ready to do phone banking because I feel so comfortable with all the other stuff right now that it's like, Oh, why not give it a shot? So start by doing what you can. Passionistas: And there's also, I want to say there are, um, Nancy what's at organization. You sent me today that to do, I know it can be expensive to do letters and postcards. If you got to buy the postcards goodbye to stamps, you know, it's not always easy for people, but we'll post a link in the chat of an organization that you can, even, if you can't afford the postcards, they'll send you postcards and stamps Jessica: Is that Sunrise, it's gotta be at Sunrise. Passionistas: You posted about it today. Jess, I did. I posted about it. I got the information from you. Jessica: Yeah. It's pay what you can. So if you can afford to pay for it. Great. And if you can't, they will literally send you all, everything you need for free, which is great. Yeah. That's really good. And they're beautiful postcards. Passionistas: They're beautiful postcards. And the other thing about them is that they're, um, they're, they are trying to mobilize younger people too, which is great. Jessica: The young voters. Yeah. Which is great. Sunrise is a fantastic organization. I can't say enough good things about them. I am a member of, but I'm really too old. So I'm like, I'm like a sunrise grandmother, but a great organization for young people. Passionistas: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so we will post that link as well. So if, if you can't afford it, you can afford it. That's all. Um, yep. So, well, this has been amazing. Thank you ladies. Six weeks away, everybody. So 39. Yes. Follow chop wood, carry water on social media as well. And stay on top of what justice is doing because there might come a day where you think you don't have time and you find you do and see what Jess is doing. Because the other thing I'd have to say is what's great about dress is she sends out a daily email blast election aside. There's a daily email blast that goes out and it gives you action items that you can do on a daily basis. Like these are the things you should do today. Call this person, emailed this person, you know, the representatives. And this is what you have to say. This is what you should write in your email. It makes it so easy. And in five minutes you can make a difference and you can do it every day. And it's an amazing, amazing resource. Thank you. Just trying to stay safe. Jessica: Hope is an action. Woo. Passionistas: All right, well thanks. Have a great day. See you next five. Next time. Bye.

WanderLearn fans get a special chance to win $1000 in travel credits on TourRadar by going here: https://www.tourradar.com/wanderlearn About this episode: Jessica Husson was one of two people (out of thousands who applied) who won a round-the-world trip sponsored by TourRadar and Intrepid travel. Jessica and Joan (a Spaniard) starred in some superbly produced videos about their travels. I watched all 8 episodes, Today, the 8th episode, which takes place in Thailand, came out. Questions I ask Jessica: You had traveled extensively before, so what did you learn from this trip? Do you now look at reality TV shows with a new lens? What fun things happened off-camera? What would you do with $1000 to spend on TourRadar? Can you pick who is on your tour? What can you do if there is a personality mismatch in your group? What did you learn from Travis, the CEO of Tour Radar, who traveled with you in Italy? What percentage of your waking hours were free? How was Thailand like? What's your next destination?  This is my 55th WanderLearn podcast episode.  The most popular podcast episode was the podcast I did with the CEO of TourRadar, Travis, whom we mention in this episode. Although I encourage you to listen to the podcast, you might enjoy it more to watch it since there's a ton of superb footage that is shown during the interview.   WanderLearn fans get a special chance to win $1000 in travel credits on TourRadar by going here: https://www.tourradar.com/wanderlearn  3 Sponsors 1. Tour Radar Do you want to take a life-changing travel adventure but you either hate planning or you don't know where to start? TourRadar is a trusted online marketplace that helps you find, compare and book multi-day tours that will expand your horizons through life-enriching travel experiences. Just type in a region you have always wanted to visit or your preferred travel style and TourRadar will do the rest. And right now, WanderLearn listeners can visit TourRadar for a chance to win $1,000 in travel credits! Enter at https://www.tourradar.com/wanderlearn  2. The Steelman Foundation Rene Steelman leads the Steelman Family Foundation which helps families with non-ambulatory children to acquire wheelchair-accessible vehicles. Their mission is to help families with children diagnosed with a permanent disability participate in the community. The Steelman Family Foundation also supports events to benefit cerebral palsy education and activities. They work exclusively with United Access and serve families nationally. Learn more and donate at https://steelmanfamilyfoundation.org 3. Health Access Sumbawa One of WanderLearn's top patrons, Kathy Kennedy Enger, asked me to draw attention to Health Access Sumbawa. I am happy to promote this remarkable nonprofit. In 2014, Jack Kennedy founded the organization to bring malaria control and healthcare to remote, impoverished communities. It started on the remote island of Sumbawa, Indonesia. Since then, it's expanded thanks to generous donations. Visit their website to learn more and to donate: https://healthaccesssumbawa.org More info You can post comments, ask questions, and sign up for my newsletter at http://wanderlearn.com. If you like this podcast, subscribe and share!  On social media, my username is always ftapon. Follow me on: http://facebook.com/ftapon http://twitter.com/ftapon http://youtube.com/user/ftapon http://pinterest.com/ftapon http://tumblr.com/ftapon Claim your monthly reward by becoming a patron at http://Patreon.com/FTapon Rewards start at just $2/month! If you prefer to do a one-time contribution, you can send it to my PayPal at FT@FrancisTapon.com If you prefer giving me Bitcoin, then please send BTC to my tip jar: 3EiSBC2bv2bYtYEXAKTkgqZohjF27DGjnV Ethereum: 0x86D8Ab45260F82A5548F39BF21C9e244D0405a83

GUEST BIO: Jessica Ivins is a user experience (UX) designer and faculty member at Center Centre, the UX design school in Chattanooga, TN, where she prepares students to be industry-ready, junior UX designers. Jessica dedicates much of her time to the UX community. She founded the Chattanooga UX Design Meetup. She publishes UX articles on her blog and on Medium. She also speaks internationally at conferences such as SXSW, Midwest UX, IA Summit, and UX Cambridge (UK). EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Jessica Ivins. She started her IT career working as a web developer using mainly HTML and CSS. But, soon became interested in the UX field. Her design school prepares students to become truly industry-ready, junior UX designers. Jessica is the founder of the Chattanooga UX Design Meetup as well as a prolific international conference speaker. She also spends quite a lot of time sharing her knowledge via her blog, social media, and tech articles via the Medium platform. KEY TAKEAWAYS: (1.06) – So Jessica, can I ask you to expand on that brief intro and tell us a little bit more about yourself? Jessica explains that, by trade, she is a UX designer. But, these days, her focus is teaching others to become industry-ready designers. To achieve this, she takes her students through an intensive two-year course. Once they have completed it, they are fully ready for the workplace. (2.00) - How long have you been focused on UX itself and how long have you been teaching other people? Her answer is since 2007, but Jessica explains that, before that, she was a front end web developer. A skill she still uses from time to time. She has been focusing on teaching since 2011/12. However, Jessica has been running regular workshops and attending meetups for far longer. (3.10) – Can you please share a unique career tip with the I.T. career audience? Jessica’s advice is to always be preparing yourself for your next job search, even if you are happy in your current role. That does not mean applying for jobs before you are ready to move on. Jessica’s advice is to constantly improve your reputation. It is important to portray yourself as a professional, at all times. That way when you need to find a new job, you will be in a good position to land the role you really want. Making a name for yourself within the industry makes any job search far easier. (4.10) - Do you have any examples of what you might do to get your profile out there? Jessica says you can dive deep and begin blogging. That works well. So, does writing a book or public speaking. For Jessica, it was speaking at conferences that gave her career a real boost. Attending networking events helps too. As does, maintaining a strong presence on social media. You just need to hang out and be active where others who work in your field spend time. For example, if you are a designer Dribble is a particularly good platform to participate in. You can also listen to podcasts or read articles written by experts who work in your field and reach to and thank them. Plus, maybe ask a question or share something with them. Do that regularly and you will stay on people’s radar. LinkedIn has great feeds that make it really easy to do this. If you do a few of these things you will end up with a good online presence. So, when an employer Googles your name they will be able to find up to date information about you. Someone who is known in the industry and has a good reputation will find it easier to land a good job. Phil particularly likes the suggestion that you provide positive feedback for articles and podcasts. He knows this is effective, especially when you submit your comment not long after the article or podcast has been published. (6.50) – Can you tell us about your worst career moment? And what you learned from that experience. At one point, despite being inexperienced and in a junior position, Jessica was expected to complete senior level work. As a result, she ended up working on some high profile and demanding projects. Unfortunately, she did not have enough experience to do everything that was expected of her. It was a very unfair position to be in. Several other people who were involved in the project were in a similar situation. Unsurprisingly, fairly quickly, everyone involved became very frustrated. However, it did make her realize that she needed to become a better facilitator. She had to develop the skill to lead individuals and teams toward consensus. It helped her to realize that being able to rally the team was an essential skill. The difficult experience she had, early on in her career, taught her a skill she still relies on heavily, today. In the end, that experience is one of the things that ended up pushing her career forward. (9.00) – What was your best career moment? For Jessica, getting into public speaking has been a highlight of her career. But, it was not something she wanted to do. She resisted, but her boss pushed her to do it. At the time, her presentation skills were not great, something her boss saw as a big issue. When she finally gave in and, she started out by speaking locally, on a subject she was passionate about. It was nowhere near as scary as she thought it would be and her public speaking ended opening a lot of doors for her. For example, while speaking at one conference she met and got to know her current boss. (10.32) – When did you actually start public speaking and how many talks have you given and do you enjoy it? Jessica explains that she started to speak publically around 2011/12, and since then has delivered dozens of talks. However, she still gets butterflies, when she speaks publically. But, she has learned to manage them better, so they are not as bad as they used to be. (11.56) – Can you tell us what excites you about the future of the IT industry and careers? The way in which technology is becoming so integrated with our day-to-day lives excites Jessica. The pace of integration means that there are always new and interesting problems to solve, especially when it comes to the user experience. (12.40) – What drew you to a career in IT? When Jessica was in college, taking a computer programming class was mandatory. At the time, she knew very little about computers, just how to use two pieces of software and handle emails. Naturally, she was nervous about taking the programming class. But, when she did, she loved it. So much so, that she nailed her first exam. She switched majors and ended up studying to become a web developer using HTML and CSS. That is when she knew for sure that an IT career was for her. The fact that she could make enough money to live comfortably was also a win. (14.30) – If you were to begin your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Jessica says she would probably start by sharpening her self-learning skills. As a student, she had a conventional mindset. She thought the way to learn was to just go to class and do what your teacher told you. Now, she realizes that this conventional approach will only take you so far. In today’s world, you have to be really good at teaching yourself. It is the only way to remain marketable and knowledgeable enough to be really good at your job. (15.26) - Is that something you've built into a habit? Or is it something you plan out? For Jessica, it has become habitual. If you focus on learning and sharpen it as a skill, you'll get better at learning. You will learn faster and recognize which skills you need to focus on. (16.05) – What are you currently focusing on in your career? Jessica is working to improve her management skills for her next cohort of students. At Center Centre, they take a different approach to education. The environment in which the students are taught is more like a workplace than a classroom. Students report to Jessica or a faculty member and have regular one-on-one meetings. Projects are managed just like they would be in the workplace. It is a sound process which produces fully trained junior UX designers. Workers who are able to do the job, from the very first day with their new companies. Jessica is pleased with the way things have gone but is working to continually improve. That means striving to manage things even better than they are now. (17.07) – What is the number one non-technical skill that has helped you the most in your IT career? For Jessica, that is having strong facilitation skills. Being able to run meetings and lead people towards consensus and achieving goals is an invaluable skill set. Jessica feels that the ability to do this is one of the things that sets her apart, in a good way. It has also helped her to be a good educator.   (17.46) – Phil asks Jessica to share a final piece of career advice with the audience. Jessica’s advice is to be intentional about how you portray yourself and make sure that you continually make small investments in your career. This will ensure that you are as ready as possible the next time you need a new job. At Center Centre, they work with students from day one to lay the groundwork for their getting a job, when they graduate, two-years later. They are encouraged to identify who they need to meet, the opportunities that will help their career and what else they can learn to boost their job worthiness. BEST MOMENTS: (3.28) JESSICA – "Lay the groundwork for your next job search now, even if you're happily employed" (8.07) JESSICA – "Public speaking opened up so many doors for me" (15.04) JESSICA – "You have to be good at seeking out new opportunities to learn, so you are marketable, hireable and knowledgeable enough to be effective at your job." (15.17) JESSICA – "If I could go back and talk to my earlier self, about the beginning of my career, I would definitely push myself to sharpen the skill of self-learning." (17.58) JESSICA – "Be intentional about how you portray yourself." CONTACT JESSICA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jessicaivins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicaivins/ Website: http://jessicaivins.net

In Episode 78, I'm chatting with Jessica Joelle Alexander, author of The Danish Way of Parenting. We talk about how the Danes raise happy kids who become happy adults. Big Ideas Denmark is one of the happiest countries in the world. Danish people are happy because of the way they're raising their children. Happy children become happy adults. Free play is really important for children. The Danish way is simple and common sense. It's really important for students to have a feeling of belonging and connectedness. Quotes Jessica: "I have always actually been living in different countries and interested in cultural differences and studying cultural differences. My background is psychology." Jessica: "When my kids were born I became really fascinated by Danish children." Jessica: "I was reading the newspaper and I saw that Denmark had been voted as one of the happiest countries in the world- again. And that it had been for forty years in a row always in the top three." Jessica: "I had this lightbulb go off in my head and I thought "Oh my God! They're happy because of the way they're raising their children." Jessica: "I had to write this book because this style of parenting had helped me so much." Audrey: "It's not just about the parenting. It's the lifestyle and the way they choose to spend their time and live their life that is getting these really positive outcomes." Jessica: "The biggest beneficiaries of this time together are the kids and you really see how much they love being with their families and there's no drama and there's no negativity." Audrey: "We have to work a little harder and think a little more about doing the things that we all need for our wellbeing. This connection piece." Jessica: "Play, free play has been an educational theory in Denmark since 1871. And for them, it's the most important thing a child can do. It's considered learning. It's nothing about can they read, can they write, can they do these things early? Because they know they will learn those things." Jessica: "Just these simple things--like playing, being outside, or simplifying--is really what we need." Jessica: "One of the hardest things is how to shut out all that pressure and believe in the simplicity." Audrey: "In the end, what is more important is being a happy person with good relationships? And that leads to success." Jessica: "Self-esteem is how you feel about who you are." Jessica: "You can do anything if you believe in yourself." Jessica: "The book is very much education. It's focusing more on schools, but it's also at home. A bit like talking about what you can take home from camp." Audrey: "Let's get the whole world to be the Danish/summer camp way!" Links Audrey's book, Happy Campers: Nine Summer Camp Secrets for Raising Kids Who Become Thriving Adults comes out on May 7th and is available for pre-order now. Visit www.happycampersbook.com to find links to all your favorite book retailers where you can pre-order your copy. Download the Hygge Oath and sign up for Jessica's email newsletter at www.jessicajoellealexander.com http://thedanishway.com/ Jessica on Instagram Books mentioned The Danish Way of Parenting by Jessica Joelle Alexander The Village Effect by Susan Pinker

Tia and her Virtual Assistant aka her Biz Boo talk about the best of 2018: the Top 10 blog posts & Top 10 podcast episodes, highs and lows in the business, and a sneak peek into the spiritual juiciness that’s in store for 2019 and beyond. Top 10 Blog Posts: 1. Icelandic Adventure: Blue Lagoon, Northern Lights, & The Golden Circle 2. 5 Wellness Hacks To Improve Your Life 3. Best Friends Day: The Bestie Edition 4. Matcha Green Tea Latte: Why I’m Obsessed & You Should Be Too 5. How To Be Productive And Stop Overthinking 6. 7 Habits To Stop Now If You Want To Be Productive In Business & In Life 7. Book of The Month: Women Who Run With The Wolves 8. Mind Mapping For Success 9. 5 Ways To Get Back To Your High Vibrating Self 10. How To Be Productive When You Don’t Have 24 Hours In The Day Top 10 Podcast Episodes: 1. #174: Living Your Truth & Running A Million Dollar Business with Kimra Luna 2. #168: Getting Your Soul Aligned with Loraine Van Tuyl, PhD 3. #176: How To Lead Life With Clarity, Confidence, & Conviction with Dr. J. Fisher 4. #172: Confessions of Tia: Finding Your Happiness 5. #171: Manifesting with the Archangels 6. #173: Body Intelligence & Your Body's Unique Language with Kole Whitty 7. #175: Vulnerability & Self-love w/ GirlTalk Network Founder Sarah Pendrick 8. #177: Confessions of Tia: Halloween Edition 9. #169: Money Talk With Money Relationship Expert Joyce Blue 10. #170: Podcast Turns 7!   Looking to connect with Jessica? You can reach her at: info@jessicalynns.com.   The New and Improved Spiritual & Empowerment Living Blog: check it out here! More Valuable Resources from Tia: Join The Confidence Lab at http://tiamariejohnson.com/ConfidenceLab Transformational freebies: http://tiamariejohnson.com/Freebies Open for Enrollment: The Spiritual Lifestyle Collective! When you join The Spiritual Lifestyle Collective, you won’t feel alone in your spiritual discovery or spiritual entrepreneur space. You’ll be able to stay in your lane as you work on your personal and business development. Messages from Spirit won't elude or confuse you. You’ll trust the process and it won’t feel like an overused statement. Learn more at SpiritualLifestyleCollective.com.  Or Click here to Join Now for only $10 and get one month free!   Get Social with Tia! Visit Tia on Instagram @tia_johnson_ (or at www.instagram.com/tia_johnson_ ) or on Facebook! Based in Philadelphia, Tia is an intuitive healer, international speaker, and best-selling author. Tia loves helping spiritually centered people crack the code of their intuitive gifts & overcome energetic blocks. For close to a decade, Tia has spoken to thousands of people nationally and internationally at several events, such as the Mind, Body, Spirit Expo, DivaGirl and Women's Empowerment Conferences, and empowerment cruises. Discover more at TiaMarieJohnson.com      

We sit down with community leaders and social impact entrepreneurs Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport to learn about their work to achieve social justice, racial partnership and improve social and emotional intelligence.Learn about Project Curate TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Now listen, for Living Corporate these are the types of folks that we really enjoy talking to - social impact entrepreneurs, educators, folks actively involved in the corporate space in a diversity and inclusion perspective and ethnically diverse leaders within the corporate space, and today we have two special guests, Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport. Secunda and Jessica are activists, writers, public speakers, and social impact entrepreneurs dedicated to racial justice. Working with Project Curate, they seek to build social and intellectual communities that can address civic challenges and work towards intersectional justice. Welcome to the show, y'all. How are you doing?Secunda: We're good. Thank you for having us so much, Zach.Jessica: Glad to be here.Zach: Hey, no problem. Now look, for those of us who don't know y'all, can y'all tell us a little bit about yourself?Secunda: Well, yeah. My name is Secunda Joseph. I am from H-Town by the way of South Louisiana, [inaudible], and yeah, I am--I have been working in spaces that relate to, like, media, digital media, organizing and activism on the half of black life, and that's what I do. I'm a servant and a lover of my people, to sum it up.Jessica: And I'm Jessica. I grew up in Little Rock, Arkansas, but I've been in Houston for about eight years now and have really fell in love with the city. I am a full-time student, but in addition to that I also do work with an organization called Project Curate but also [inaudible], which does lots of work in the community around critical dialogue and creativity in the arts to push folks towards thinking about ideas of racial justice and building more transformative communities. Zach: That's amazing. So today we're gonna be talking about a particular program that will be coming really soon. So can you talk to us a little bit about the program, the title of it, what inspired it, all of that?Jessica: Sure. Secunda and I both work with an organization called Project Curate that has been hosting conversations here in the city around race, religion, and social justice. This semester we're gonna be starting a curriculum that we're offering to the community. We're asking folks to come out and join us over the course of several months--we'll meet once a month on Saturdays--to work through a book called Emergent Strategy. This book has really--a lot of us have read it, those folks who are really interested in building community and doing justice work, but this book is a little different than the usual kind of social justice how-to or the activist how-to. It's not a manual for how to do that. It actually asks folks to sort of stop and pause and ask themselves how they can shift their own practices, their own personal interactions, their own behaviors, do small-scale things in order to have big impacts, in order to shift the world. So that's what we're gonna be working through. The course is called Frequencies because what we're trying to do is to get people to think about how to create a kind of synergy, a relationship between other people, to think about their engagements with other people, to think about their relationships with themselves, and to think how those small-scale things, those small-scale relationships, can get us to think about how to build more transformative communities with one another. So we're asking folks to come out and join us once a month, and we can say a little bit more as we go throughout the show and share a little bit about how people can find more information, but that's kind of the gist of it, of what we're up to.Zach: That's really cool. Now who do you believe that this class is catered for? Who do you believe this class will help?Secunda: This class would help, you know, show [inaudible] towards folks who are in the corporate world, and, you know, when I think about the black and brown folks that walk into this space and how they--you know, sometimes you have to--you know, you come (on?) with a new face, put the things that you may be--the solutions, the systems, the understandings that you have, that you were taught sort of at home aside as you walk into this space, but I think this opportunity helps you to, like, think about ways that you can bring in creative solutions and build a new way to do things much better. I think that's [inaudible] for yourself and any organization. It's also for folks who are activists or organizers who are frankly wore out, you know? And they're tired of like, "Let me get 200 people in here, and maybe 50 of them will stand up, and we need 1,000 people at this rally," who are thinking very linear to get things accomplished, and a lot of times that really snatches the [inaudible] out of us. One of the things that I say, I tell people often, is that one of the things that this book does is it gives you a lot of examples of what--kind of what happens in nature. It talks about fractals and these small patterns that we consistently that really moves our world. So just, you know, it speaks to many people who really want to move (with?) the world and just need more intention on how to do that in a practical and a [inaudible] way.Zach: That's beautiful. And, you know, when you were talking about--as you both were talking about Frequencies and really the course itself and how it really focuses on being intentional with the little things, quote unquote, that you do and the people that you engage with, it kind of reminds me of a topic that we've discussed on the show around just being socially and emotionally intelligent, right? So being cognizant of who you are, being cognizant of your own emotions as well as how you're coming off and reading the social cues of others and just being intentional and purposeful with your time. So I believe there's a lot of relevance and intersection from that perspective as well. I'm curious now, who else would you say--when you kind of talked about Frequencies, you talked about Project Curate--who would you say that inspires this work for you all? Who would you say really, really is someone that you would point to and say, "Wow, this is why we do what we're doing."Jessica: You know, someone for me that came to mind is someone who was talked about a lot in this book that we're working through, and that's Octavia Butler, who was actually a writer, a novelist, and was a specialist in what people now know of as science fiction writing, believe it or not. So what I think what's really dope about Octavia Butler is what she asks us to do is imagine a world beyond the one that we see right now, and that that world that we want is actually possible. We can create that, that the structures that are in place now, that are unjust structures, those can be rethought, but it's--one way to go about that is to, you know, work for kind of large-scale change and to do the activist work and to hold up the signs, but another way to do it is to think about how to build community with one another, how to be in relationship with one another. And so when I think about her work and I think about her writing and I think about her thinking, she laid out a blueprint for us to think about how to do this in a way that is more holistic, more just to ourselves, because I think what we were recognizing is that a lot of folks who are in this fight for justice or a lot of folks who are trying to make a change on their jobs, whether that's in the corporate world or elsewhere, feel like they have to take on a lot and do a lot, and that's true. I mean, they do have to do that, but what would it mean for us to scale it back and think about these just--starting with your relationships, starting with the relationship with yourself, right, and making sure that you are doing justice to yourself. Those kind of questions will come into play, and when you say who inspires us, I think definitely Octavia Butler's writing is definitely a part of that.Secunda: And I also think of--and one of our team members brought this up about those folks who are excited about, you know, shifting our world or shifting our systems, and to--I think about folks who would have an opportunity to start off with a clean slate, right? So there are those of us who have been practicing in a way, you know, corporate tells you. You know, the way you learn in school, the way you learn to organize or do something just in a corporate structure, and then there are those who are just getting their feet wet, and they come in with a clean slate, and they have an opportunity to create something from a more holistic perspective, right? Instead of watching all this--you know, somebody like myself, there's a lot of things I had to unlearn, right, and put into practice, but a person who's new to this, our young people, our younger students who this is their first opportunity to do something, to ignite other people, right? To move themselves and the people around them and to really have the tools to do that in a way that is beneficial for themselves and the people around them. Like, it is--you know, it's like you look at a--in our organizing work, like, we move in a non-linear structure. Like, we are a (leadership-full?) group, and, you know, as we've done this coursework and as we've had these different conversations, we encourage that and we've, you know, taught that in a sense. I hate using the word teach, but we've created space for that. But this takes what we've done--it's like looking at a cell and then breaking it down to an atom. This takes what we've done and just breaks it down in a very easy to sort of easy to ingest--not easy to ingest. [laughs] Way. Yeah, you want to?Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's true. A lot of the conversation around, you know, how to--how to bring change, again, is we think--we think big, and we think large-scale, and we think how do we organize? This is kind of what (Sec?) said earlier. You know, "We need 100 people to come up in this space," or, you know, "If we want to make a change in the corporate world, we need, you know, 50 employees to help us to sign whatever petition," or whatever, but what this asks us to do is to kind of break that down on a smaller scale and say, "How do we engage--" Let's just start with how we engage with one another. How do we shift--how do we shift the culture of a place, right? How do we shift--yeah, how do we shift our engagements? How do we shift our thinking? It may not mean us meeting, you know, every Saturday to do some kind of direct action, but it can mean me agreeing with myself to say, "When I walk into this space, there's a particular type of energy that I want to bring into this space," or "When I engage with Secunda, I'm gonna make sure that--" You know, if I know that I have a very strong personality, I'm gonna step back and make sure that the way--if I want, you know, to have equality and equity in the world, well, maybe I need to figure out how to have equality and equity in my relationship with Secunda first, right? So that means I need to step back a little bit or think about the ways that I may take up all the air in the space in a room, and then think about how that can--those small-scale things can lead to a sort of cultural shift in how we engage with one another.Zach: This has been an incredible discussion, and I want to make sure, before we get too much further, that folks can know where they can learn more about the program. So would you mind sharing the information for that?Jessica: Yeah. They can go to Project Curate.org. That's our website, and they can go--there's a little Events link there that they can go and visit, and that has a list of our--of the curriculums that we're offering this semester. They will find Frequencies there, and they can register there on the site. Our kickoff is going to be Friday night, September 7th, and that's just gonna be a gathering for folks who have registered and who want to participate with us. We'll have a, you know, small kind of eat food, you know, kind of greet thing happening [inaudible], then kind of introduce everybody, and then our very first session, when we begin to get into the work, will be Saturday, September 22nd, and we'll have more information on the website about locations and that kind of thing.Zach: This is really cool, and so what I want to make sure is we'll have the information, Project Curate.org, that website, in our show notes so folks can direct from there, and then we'll make sure to encourage our folks to check it out, especially if they're in Houston, right? If they're in Houston to check it out and to engage with it. So it's really exciting. So before we go, any shout outs or parting words?Secunda: Parting words? Just thank you for having us on, and I just want to encourage people to just begin doing the move of just doing a little research on [inaudible] and some of the conversations that are available on [inaudible], and I think of where, like, you'll be really intrigued, if you're not able to attend the class, just to start the conversations at home with yourself.Jessica: Yeah, and I'll add--you know, what's a beautiful thing about this is all of the material that we're using is really written and produced by black women, and so it's a really beautiful thing to think about how this presents an opportunity for us to really, I don't know, mind the beauty that's there of our culture and what people are producing and the new [inaudible] that people are putting out, and so shout outs to all the black women who are doing innovative work out there, and we hope that this space will really encourage folks to sink deeper into the work that's there.Zach: Absolutely. I'm so excited and thankful that you guys were here, so thank you, thank you both. Excuse me, I said you guys. I should be more inclusive with my language. I'm so thankful that you both were able to join us, and I think when you talk about--when you talk about the community and the relationship aspect, that's so relevant for Corporate America because so often when we talk about inclusion and diversity or we talk about creating some type of change we talk about it at this high level, almost like top-down approach, where as really if it's a people-driven thing, then the focus should be the people, and it's not really ever going to--you're not really gonna see any major transformation organizationally, socially, politically, whatever domain you're operating in, until you're able to actually operate and start at a people--person-to-person perspective, and I think this course, and really Project Curate as a non-profit social impact organization, really reinforces that, and so I just want to thank you both again. And that does it for us on the show, so thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport, members of Project Curate. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

Jacob and Matthew explore the second season of Jessica Jones on a number of levels, looking at the decisions of both the characters and the writers. How should the law treat someone like Alissa? What responsibility does Jessica hold for her mother’s actions? How do we view Trish’s actions, and the writers' decisions to put so much conflict between her and Jessica?You can download the episode with a right click  and clicking "save link as" or subscribe by searching for Superhero Ethics on Itunes or on Stitcher.Agree or disagree with what we talked about, or want to add your own thoughts? Let us know! You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, or email us at superheroethics@gmail.com

Gemma works with female entrepreneurs who have introverted personalities. She loves to help women get more visibility, in spite of the urge to hold back. When she and Jess first started talking, Gemma had tried all kinds of things to get her name out there, but had issues making the sale.   In This Episode Being an introvert in business Being hung up on making the sale Dropping the act and dropping your guard The cost of being a people pleaser The big breakthroughs   “That’s all part of business: it’s about getting the confidence to do the things that scare you the most” - Gemma “I never believed that you could make a difference and make money” - Gemma “The more money you make, the more of a difference you can make as well” - Gemma “With perfection, everyone just wants to knock you off the pedestal” - Jessica “Sometimes we don’t realize that the kindest thing we can do for people is to be direct with them” - Jessica “You can only help the people who want to help themselves” - Jessica “It’s not about me, it’s about my clients. It’s about the women I want to work with” - Gemma   More Jess!http://bit.ly/SLSGroup https://jessicalorimer.com/supersize-your-sales https://jessicalorimer.com/list-building-legend Content DisclaimerThe information contained above is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this article, video or audio are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this article, video or audio. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this article, video or audio. Jessica Lorimer disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this article, video or audio.Disclaimer: Some of these links are for products and services offered by the podcast creator

How to Shift Our Mindset to Get What We Want with Jessica Eley. In this episode of the Boss Mom Podcast, Jessica talks about mindset and how the right questions about relationships and learning where you're starting from changes everything in business and life. This podcast is sponsored by Home Made Luxe.   Subscribe to the podcast in iTunes:  In this episode you’ll hear: Jessica's journey from corporate to motherhood and how that led to entrepreneurship. Her organic shift from copywriting to mindset coaching. How she coaches through tough parts of relationships. Where almost everyone is at when they start in coaching with Jessica. Building new positive patterns and habits. How Jessica uses meditation, being present, leaning on her husband and getting out of the house to get through overwhelm. Using Facebook groups to make life easier through communication and honesty. Show Sponsor: Home Made Luxe All moms need Mommy Alone Time in their lives so Keitha started Home Made Luxe a DIY Home Decor subscription box. Every month, Keitha from Home Made Luxe sends ladies (and some crafty gents) around the country a gorgeous, Pinterest-inspired home decor project. The best part is that ladies get to walk around their homes and see their beautiful, custom pieces and think about the next mommy alone time moment! For the special Boss Mom discount of 10% off your first box, use the code BossMom. Recommended links and resources: Trello Esther Hicks  Boss Mom Podcast Episode 108: Nurture Your Business: How to stop questioning why people should listen to you with Dana Boss Mom Facebook Community Can I quote you on that?  Relationships in our lives are everything. - Dana For most people, there's almost always a gap in current values and values we want. - Jessica You have to know where you're starting before you can get to where you're going. - Jessica Beliefs are just habits of thought and behavior is a habit of doing or action. - Jessica We don't often give ourselves enough grace to change that pattern. - Jessica Do you have a support system to nurture your "ah-ha" moments? - Jessica More about our guest, Jessica Eley. Jessica is a mindset coach for entrepreneurs who want a thriving life as much as they want a thriving business. Whether they have personal issues holding them back from business success or their business is interfering with the rest of their lives, she helps entrepreneurs be happy at home, in their relationships, and in their own heads. Jessica is happy to offer a 90-minute coaching session to you for half-off my usual rate at Jessica's website. Website / Facebook / Twitter / Instagram Connect with Dana: Instagram / The Boss Mom Facebook community (her total happy place) We love hearing from you guys! If you’ve got a question about today’s episode or want to leave us some inbox love, you can email us at hello@boss-mom.com Or, you can always find both Dana hanging out in our Boss Mom Facebook Community.  We would LOVE it if you’d leave a podcast rating or review on iTunes. We also know it can be kind of tricky to figure out. Here are a few step by step instructions on how to leave an iTunes rating or review for a podcast from your iPhone or iPad Launch Apple’s Podcast app. Tap the Search tab. Enter the name of the podcast you want to rate or review. Tap the blue Search key at the bottom right. Tap the album art for the podcast. Tap the Reviews tab. Tap Write a Review at the bottom. Enter your iTunes password to login. Tap the Stars to leave a rating. Enter title text and content to leave a review. Tap Send.

Jessica is the Founder and CEO of the Integrative Women's Health Institute and is passionate about caring for and empowering women who struggle with women’s and pelvic health conditions. She is equally passionate about educating and supporting clinicians in confidently and safely using integrative tools to transform women's pelvic healthcare. Having over a decade of experience as a women’s and pelvic physical therapist plus owning a private women’s health clinical nutrition and coaching practice gives her a unique perspective on the integrative, conservative options for pelvic pain management. Jessica was educated at the University of Virginia, Emory University, The Institute of Integrative Nutrition, and Duke Integrative Medicine.  She is currently a doctoral student in clinical nutrition at Maryland University of Integrative Health In today’s show, we talk about pelvic health, what causes pelvic pain and inflammation and how to address these issues from a functional medicine perspective. Topics discussed in today's episode How does pelvic pain impact the quality of life for women? How are the pelvic floor muscles interconnected? What factors contribute to pelvic pain in women? The structural factors that contribute to pelvic pain (i.e. birth or physical trauma) The link between food sensitivities, inflammation, hormone imbalance and pelvic pain The importance of connecting with your pelvic area, your vulva, vagina and knowing your basic anatomy and physiology The connection between pelvic pain and gut health Why it is important to be diagnosed if you think you may have endometriosis Differentiating between muscle tension, tightness, weakness and strength The psychosocial connection to pelvic pain What is pelvic floor physiotherapy? Are Kegels the best exercise for strengthening the pelvic floor muscles? Is it possible to heal and restore the integrity of the pelvic floor muscles after childbirth? What is the best way to engage and strengthen the pelvic floor muscles? Connect with Jessica You can connect with Jessica on her Website and on Facebook and Twitter Resources mentioned Integrative Women's Health Institute | Jessica Drummond FFP 027 | The Impact of Sexual Abuse on Fertility and Infertility | Part 2 | Dr. Erica Berman FFP 009 | Sacred Fertility Foods | The key to having healthy babies and a healthy pregnancy | Sally Fallon-Morell Join the community! Find us on the Fertility Friday Facebook Fan Page Subscribe to the Fertility Friday Podcast on iTunes! Music Credit: Intro/Outro music Produced by J-Gantic Sponsored By This episode is sponsored by Circle + Bloom! Click here to receive 20% off Circle + Bloom products! Make sure to use discount code: FertilityFriday at checkout!  

Shifting Your Business Model with Jessica Stansberry. In this episode of the Boss Mom Podcast, Jessica shares how she's shifted her business direction to better serve her goals.   Subscribe to the podcast in iTunes:  In this episode you’ll hear: Jessica's Boss Mom journey, her multiple businesses and how she started her design business. How Jessica found the place where she started making money in her business. Where Jessica's gift is in the business world. Jessica's transition from doing the hands on work to coaching. An overview of Jessica's course offerings. The reasons for switching your direction in business. How Jessica handles having her kids at home and working at the same time. What building a business looks like for Jessica. How Jessica deals with overwhelm and being in a funk. Jessica's one thing that every business needs. Recommended links and resources: All Up In Your Lady Business Episode 1: Intro to Jaclyn and Jessica Boss Mom Academy Amy Porterfield Jessica's ConvertKit Mastery Course Jessica's DIY Your Website Course Netflix Can I quote you on that?  Forming or being part of a community has been super important to my business. - Jessica You (Jessica) are able to simplify so people can feel engaged with you. - Dana You have to think about what words you use to keep them from being jargon filled. - Jessica I started polling my audience to see what they want because that's really smart, and I found out what they wanted. - Jessica You have to create space and time in your business to do what you love and enjoy. - Dana I started my business to be at home with my kids. - Jessica I want to make enough money in my business so I have the opportunity to be with them when I want to be. - Dana We're building our business, not to be away from our kids, but because we are passionate about it, and so we can be with our kids in a way that makes sense to us. - Dana You can build your business and your job around what you want to do and where you want to travel. - Dana Have a babysitter for at least a few hours a week to have dedicated work hours. It's huge for mindset and productivity. - Jessica You need to have a blog that is relevant to what your ideal client is. - Jessica What are you inspiring people to do when you post an inspirational quote. - Dana More about our guest, Jessica Stansberry. Hi, I'm Jessica Stansberry, the tech guru for online entrepreneurs and the sassy southern half of the All Up in Your Lady Business podcast. I help business owners figure out the more technical parts of this world by teaching online courses, free lessons on my blog and one-on-one strategy sessions. Oh, and, I still design custom websites which is where my business started 5 years ago. When I'm not being a complete nerd, I'm either chasing my little boys or chasing chickens off of my porch on our family farm in North Carolina. My "DIY Your Website" course which can be found here! http://www.jessicastansberry.com/diy Website / Periscope / Instagram / Pinterest Connect with Dana: Instagram / Periscope (her total happy place) We love hearing from you guys! If you’ve got a question about today’s episode or want to leave us some inbox love, you can email us at hello@boss-mom.com Or, you can always find both Dana hanging out in our Boss Mom Facebook Community.  We would LOVE it if you’d leave a podcast rating or review on iTunes. We also know it can be kind of tricky to figure out. Here are a few step by step instructions on how to leave an iTunes rating or review for a podcast from your iPhone or iPad Launch Apple’s Podcast app. Tap the Search tab. Enter the name of the podcast you want to rate or review. Tap the blue Search key at the bottom right. Tap the album art for the podcast. Tap the Reviews tab. Tap Write a Review at the bottom. Enter your iTunes password to login. Tap the Stars to leave a rating. Enter title text and content to leave a review. Tap Send.

Today we are chatting with Jessica Lawlor. Jess is a communications professional, writer, personal branding expert and speaker in the Philadelphia area. After six years in the corporate PR world, Jessica left her job this spring to run her own communications agency, blog, and brand, and to teach yoga. We chat about her time management now that she is self-employed and how yoga brought new inspiration to her life. Here’s where to find Jessica: Website: http://jessicalawlor.com Yoga: http://jessicalawlor.com/yoga/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/jesslaw Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jessicallawlor Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jessicallawlor/ Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/jessicalawlor/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicalawlor Snapchat: @jessicalawlor Here’s where to find Ashley: Website: https://www.BrooksEditorial.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/brookseditorial Instagram: http://instagram.com/brookseditorial Pinterest: http://pinterest.com/brookseditorial Here’s where to find Abbigail: Website: https://www.InkwellsandImages.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/abbigailekriebs Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbigailekriebs/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/inkwellsandimages/ Mini Book Club: Yes, Please by Amy Poehler Ask Gary Vee by Gary Vaynerchuck The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up by Marie Kondo Maybe In Another Life by Taylor Jenkins Reid Modern Romance by Aziz Ansari Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo Quotes from this Episode: “I have no deadlines, which is a good thing AND a bad thing.” - Jessica “I’m still trying to do my most creative writing first thing in the morning.” - Jessica “You have a chance to get that first energy burst out on whatever is most important.” - Ashley “Having that set amount of time forced me to only work on what was most important for that day.” - Jessica “Online work expands to fill up the time you have available.” - Ashley “I’m trying to be gentle with myself, knowing that I have all these hours ahead of me in a day.” - Jessica “I do my creative work in the morning and my afternoons are a little more social.” - Jessica “The definition of Getting Gutsy is stepping outside of your comfort zone to live a life that makes you truly happy.” - Jessica “Emailing people to be guests on this podcast have been some gutsy moments for Ashley and I.” - Abbigail “It’s worth sitting down to write even if you never get a book deal.” - Ashley “It’s much, much harder to sit down and do the thing that you are passionate about. But the key really is in getting started.” - Jessica “Those goals I have for a couple of years down the line start with writing tomorrow’s blog post.” - Jessica “Sometimes ideas can be exhausting.” - Abbigail “I have found so much creativity through my yoga class and through my yoga teaching.” - Jessica “It doesn’t seem to matter where you are at, someone else is in the same place.” - Abbigail

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Jessica Jackley Co-Founder, kiva.org Date: September 29, 2008 Jessica Jackley: Kiva Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO for the National Center for Women and Information Technology or NCWIT. This is one in a continuing series of interviews that we are doing with women who have started either IT companies or organizations that are based on information technology. We are very excited that we have Jessica Flannery here today from Kiva to talk to us. Also with me is Larry Nelson, from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: It's really a pleasure to be here and I must say we are getting tremendous feedback from not only adults who are having their children listen to some of these interviews, but some of the employers that are looking for more women and more technical people to get into the business which is sometimes a very good step to becoming an entrepreneur. Lucy: Also with me today is Lee Kennedy who is a Director of NCWIT and a serial entrepreneur herself. Right now, her current company is called Tricalix. Hi Lee. How are you? Lee Kennedy: Hi Lucy. Hi Larry. It is so good to be here. Larry: It is. We are the three L's, right? Lucy, Lee and Larry or something. Lucy: Or something. Welcome Jessica. We are very happy to have you with us today and the topic that we are going to talk about, I mean, you're fabulous social entrepreneur, and I think that this whole area of micro-finance and what Kiva is doing is just fascinating. And as part of this interview, we all went and spent time on the Kiva site and just really got lost in all the wonderful stories that are our there. So welcome. Jessica Flannery: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Lucy: Well, for our listeners, I'm sure everybody knows but it bears repeating that Kiva is the first peer to peer micro loan website. It really demonstrates how the Internet can be used to facilitate these meaningful types of connections between people who want to lend money and entrepreneurs all over the world especially in developing countries, how we can all help each other really move the economies ahead. It's a really fascinating website. So Jessica, why don't you just spend a minute and tell us a bit about Kiva. Jessica: Sure. You said it very, very well and very concisely. We are the world's first person to person micro lending website so anybody in the world can go onto the site, browse business profiles and entrepreneur profiles really I should say. Whether that person is a farmer or selling small goods in their village or a seamstress or a restaurant owner, there are all different kinds of small business. And you can lend as little as $25 to that entrepreneur and over time you get updates on that business and then you get paid back. Larry: Wow! Lucy: Well, and Kiva is a fairly young organization. I read someplace that you started a bit of a hobby website and it just exploded. Jessica: Yeah. It's been a very, very busy last four years. Four years ago, I learned about micro-finance and decided that's what I want to do. I quit another job and I went to East Africa for a few months to see it up close and personal. While I was there it was impossible not to be deeply moved by the stories of success of people that I was meeting. People who had used often just a $100 to change their lives and lifted their families out of poverty. So, I became really excited about these stories and wanted to share them with my own friends and family. And as I did that, my husband Matt and I kept asking not just "Oh, this is great. Micro-finance works, but wow, how do we, and our friends and family, how do we enable people to lend money directly to these individuals we're meeting?" So, it started out with a very specific way, very specific context with individuals who we had met face to face in Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda who we wanted to help. We wanted to participate in their amazing stories, and we wanted to see them get to the next level. So what we did was basically Matt came to visit me during his time in East Africa, and then he went back home, built our website. We emailed our friends and family and said "Hey, we have seven businesses in Uganda that we'd like to lend a total of $3,000 to. Do you want to pitch in?" Then overnight that money came in and we sent that along to Uganda. We had a six month kind of beta round with these seven entrepreneurs in Uganda. After the six months they had repaid, we took the word beta off of our website and that launched us. And that was just in October of '05, so not even quite three years ago. Our first year was $500,000 a month, the second year was $13.5 million more, and today we're just around $45 million, and we haven't even finished our third year. So it's grown very rapidly. Lucy: And you have an incredible payback on the loans, incredible payback percent. Jessica: Yeah, it's in a high 90 percentage. That's representative of a micro finance alone, not just our site. Lucy: But wow, that's just and incredible history and such a good cause as well. One of the things that I noticed there was a Soft-tech video on YouTube that I watched that I thought was very interesting. Where you mentioned that you all created the tool that Kiva uses really to match lenders and entrepreneurs without really knowing how the world would use it to your previous story. This gets us to our first question which is around technology, and I thought you would have a really interesting spin on this. You know, how in general do you see technology helping missions like those of Kiva? Slightly different than potentially a four-profit business but you have incredibly interesting uses of technology. So what do you see in the future? Jessica: Kiva does a lot of different things, but our mission is to connect people through lending to alleviate poverty. The real key there is to connect people. The money transfer is very interesting, and technology obviously helps that happened, but what really we care about is this connectivity. Loans happen to be a great tool for poverty alleviation as well as connectivity. I mean, if you lend me something and I have it and I'm fully giving it back to you, you're going to pay a little bit more attention usually, than if you just donate something and I tell you how that's going forever and ever. That back and forth communication is obviously free or a lot less expensive. It's quick. It's real time. You can see on the other side of the planet how this person is waiting right now today for that $200 that's going to allow them to start their business. So there are all these elements, but then technology makes it faster, more efficient, less expensive and just overall easier to have that human connection happen. Very specifically while I said the money is not the point, it's a great tool for a lot of things. For example, we've had a lot of help from great technology leaders out there that we've been able to leverage. So PayPal, we're the first non-profit to have PayPal generously agree to provide free payment transactions. So we have literally zero variable costs for sending these little bits of money back and forth all around the planet every day. Lucy: Well, one thing too, I'm a technologist so I'll get off this question in just a minute. I know Larry and Lee are looking at me like "Let's move off the technology." But I do have one more thing to observe here, because this is a different kind of interview than we've done. There is a whole growing area called ICT for D which is Information and Communication Technology for Developing World and one of the things that I have read that you either have done or will do is you make an offline browser so that people can conserve power on their computer, sort of a low energy kind of browser so they don't have to be always plugged in. That's an example of the type of technology around ICT for D that you have to start thinking about the climates and the situation and the resources that people have all around the world. Jessica: It's been very, very interesting for us to see, even how sometimes we'll have really wonderful generous lenders say, "Hey, I also want to donate financially or otherwise." And let's say they send a great batch of brand new video cameras for us to send out to the field. Well, sometimes actually a lower tech solution is better, because of the technology that's available in the field. So maybe we don't need the highest quality photos, the highest res photos, maybe a lower tech solution is better. That's been interesting to watch, just figuring out really what's the best and what's the most appropriate tools to get the job done. Lee: That's exactly right. Lucy: So, we normally ask what it is that you love about being an entrepreneur, but since you're working with entrepreneurs it would be great to hear about the stories from the entrepreneurs out of Kiva, as well as what it is that love about this whole environment and the entrepreneurship. Jessica: OK. This is a really good question. What I found is the idea of being an entrepreneur, I think that's really attractive to a lot of people. I think there are some, I don't want to put value judgments on it, good or bad, better or worse, but I think sometimes it has to do with freedom or this idea of being your own boss, or something like that. For me, my introduction to business and my entrepreneurship at all was in Africa seeing people who were gold hunters, or subsistence farmers, or fishermen, or people who were basically entrepreneurship to them was doing what they needed to do every day to survive. It was definitely not an option. They had to do the next thing, figure out the next step to get closer and closer to their goal to find food, and they could survive that day. It was very hand-to-mouth sort of entrepreneurship. It wasn't what we usually think of in Silicon Valley as entrepreneurship being super innovated perhaps or anything like that, but in context it was as innovative as anything else in Silicon Valley would have been, and as much entrepreneurship as anything else that you would see in other places of the world. For me, it's funny. I guess yet that it's true, when you look back at what we've done in Kiva the last four years, great! We have been social entrepreneurs, but we didn't go out thinking, I definitely thought over the years, over the last few years, "Oh, social entrepreneurship. How great! I want to do something like that." Then what happened is you have to get specific. You have to start with something specific. So, we started to do Kiva, a very, very specific mission of Kiva, and then retroactively we're like, "Oh, yeah. I guess that's what we're doing. It's pretty entrepreneurial, isn't it?" It came down to, "We have this mission, and we're going to do whatever we need to do everyday to make it happen. We're going to be scrappy if we need to. We're going to iterate. We're going to put things out there that maybe aren't even perfect. We're going to keep moving, and everyday say, 'What can we do next to meet our goals?'" That's what it felt like to me to be entrepreneurial. I think it's really been informed by the people that originally inspired us in the first place, and these micro-entrepreneurs all over the world. Lucy: You know what? That's just what entrepreneurs do. Everyday they're looking around, trying to figure out what they can do better. Do you have a story or two that you can share with some of the entrepreneurs that have taken loans and been successful, and then paid the loans off? Jessica: Sure. I mean there are so, so many. It's actually one of the hardest questions I get, because really I mean every one of them is amazing. If you want an amazing success story, I can tell you for example there was a woman that really was one of the very first people I ever met in East Africa. She did such amazing stuff. She had started one business, like a charcoal selling business. She had gotten them $800. For that initial business, she did like the equivalent of what a multi-national corporation would do, like all the principals were there. She started the one business, and then she diversified. Then she expanded, not from her local market, she went to markets in other trading centers and other villages. She extended beyond her geographic region. She started five other small businesses of all different types. I mean really things that you really wouldn't think would be related. What she did was she got practice, and then she got very good at seeing market needs and seeing opportunities. So, she had the capitol after time, and she was able to say, "Huh." I think of a very small caring business that you could start with $200 or $300. I think that's what made it. So she did that, and she did the next thing, and the next thing. She just blew me away, because you knew that had she just been dealing in another environment with bigger numbers, she would be the head of a huge multi-national corporation that was doing all sorts of different things really well. So, people like that just always blow me away. I would say truly, it sounds like a bit of a cheesy answer, but the real truth is any story that you read on the Kiva site, there's something to learn, there's something to appreciate, and there's something good. I think say, "Hey! Good job there, " to the entrepreneurs for doing it, because each person is taking a risk even just in accepting a loan, and putting themselves out there and saying, "I'm going to try. I'm going to try to do things differently. I'm going to try and make my life better, and life for my family better." Just taking advantage of that opportunity is something I think should really be applauded, and in and of itself is really a triumph and a great thing, a great thing to see happen. So, that's the hardest question to answer, because all of the entrepreneurs that you can see, I truly find inspirational in something. Lucy: Well, thank you for sharing that. That really is inspirational. Lee: Well, the other thing, and I'm sure somebody has already tumbled to this, there's a business book in this. When you said that she was making all the right entrepreneurial business moves, there's got to be a lot of nuggets of wisdom in there. Larry: You had mentioned offline Jessica, that you are involved with Ashoka? Jessica: Well, yes. I mean, I have found a lot of inspiration in Ashoka over the years, and sort of been introducing the idea of social entrepreneurship through Ashoka. Additionally, he has been honored with the Ashoka Fellowship very recently. We're really excited to be part of that community. Larry: Congratulations! Let me get on with another question here. Who has been either a role model or a mentor in your career, in your life? Jessica: Oh, my goodness! Now, that's the hardest question. I feel like I have been so blessed and so surrounded by encouragers. I mean, can I say like my top five? Larry: OK. Jessica: My parents first and foremost have always given me... Actually, it was really funny. I watched the Emmys last night. I actually don't have a television, but I was with and brother and sister-in-law in L.A., and we were watching the Emmys a little bit. She was saying something funny. She was like, "Thanks to my mom and dad for giving me confidence, that was to the portion that was my looks and ability." It was like "that's what my parents said." My parents first and foremost made it without question an obvious thing, that I could do anything I wanted to in the world. So, that was kind of the foundational piece in a very supportive family. There's been a few others. When I heard Dr. Hamadias speak, his story spoke to me like no others had at that point. That's what propelled me to quit my job and go off and try to figure out micro-finance for myself, and try to do something like what he did, like walk around meet people, listen to their needs, and help. So, he gave me a huge inspiration. Then I guess, the other person I'll mention is Brian Reynolds actually gave me that opportunity to go. He is the Founder and Executive Director of a really great organization called "Village Enterprise Fund." They give $100 grants to entrepreneurs for business creation. They really start people on the very first string of the economic ladder. These are actually folks who are doing such risky things like their systems filing that "If it doesn't rain, everything is lost." Really, really small businesses, who their commissioners wouldn't take a loan probably because they would be not in the right position to do so. Their organization is amazing. I basically met with Brian right around the time I decided I was going to figure out a way to work in micro-finance. He really gave me that opportunity. He listened to me, kind of met me where I was and said, "Hey." Even though I had no skills that I could really name. I had studied philosophy and poetry undergrad. I had done event planning, and administrative things in my job. I really didn't have a lot to go on to say "look, this is why you should hire me, and let me go do micro-finance," but he gave me that chance. On that trip. out to East Africa with Village Enterprise Fund, that's what changed my life, and that's where we had the ideas for Kiva. So, I am absolutely grateful for him, among many, many other in my life over the last decade. There's a lot of people. Lee: Well, that's the good thing about entrepreneurship as well that there are lots of other good people around to encourage you, and to offer wisdom. One piece of wisdom that we've been getting lots of interesting answers too on this particular interview series is the toughest thing you've ever had to do. So, we're curious. What is the toughest thing so far, that you've had to do in your career? Jessica: That is a really good question. I would say without a doubt that it has been...really tough to... you know when you do something that you care about so much, and also something that is like with the social mission I think, it becomes your baby. It becomes like your...I don't know there all these analogies, your right arm, you just feel so attached. It has been a challenge I think to do the work life balance thing in any way because you just feel so driven, so consumed by it, and you want to spend all your waking hours on it, but that can be unhealthy and actually lead to burn out and that sort of thing. So finding the right balance has been probably the biggest challenge and also being removed enough to make objective decisions. You know, it's always a challenge when you are so in love with the work that you get to do. Lee: So speaking of personal and professional balance what do you do to bring balance with all the entrepreneurs you're trying to help, and the changes on the website, how do you manage that? Jessica: Well, I think it's just about kind of knowing what your priorities are and knowing what your boundaries are of what you can control and what you can't and then just working away. I think it is just a daily reminding and daily recalibration saying, "OK, here is what we are about. Here's what we can do. Here's what we can't do and let's just keep moving forward." I think another trick too is just checking yourself often to make sure you are not making decisions others fear or panic in any way. We haven't really... we're an interesting state where we haven't had a competitors per se really, and we don't even think that way. But if we were forced to look at other kind of collaborative organizations out there as competitors, even if we saw them as such, I think it would be the wrong move to be driven to make any sort of decisions, or move to out of the place of fear. Just like it is in life, just kind of knowing who you are, and what you're about, knowing who you're not and just doing that, like the trying to respond to what else is out there or what someone else is doing. I think staying true and pure to your own mission is what it is about. It will make you stay sane. Larry: You have actually kind of covered part of the question I was going to ask you and that is, you've done so many things Jessica and you work with all kinds of people around the world but if you were right now sitting down in front of a young potential entrepreneur, what advice would you give them? Jessica: OK, I have the privilege of getting to do this quite a bit. This is the number one thing I would say, two things. Follow whatever you are really passionate about. It can be something that doesn't make a lot of sense like what do you do when we were passionate about the stories, how do you follow that? We loved them, we celebrated them, we read them ourselves, we laughed, we cried, we just got into those stories and then by sharing those stories, the thing that we are passionate about with the people that we were passionate about, our friends and family, that led to some really great stuff. So just follow as best you can, the stuff that you are passionate about would be number one. Two, if you're going to do something and start something and you really believe that's kind of what you were meant to do next, I would say don't be afraid to start small. In fact, that is really the only way to begin. I just finished my MBA at Stanford. I can't say enough good things about that place and that community. It was amazing. Additionally, it's a place where it is easy to think big very quickly and say "let's go change the world in these huge huge ways and let's have..." you know you don't want to start something unless it's scalable and unless it is going to touch three million people in its first two years or whatever. Easy to say think big or go home and what's your plan for scalability? You need to know that right now. I would say to a budding entrepreneur, don't be afraid, to be very, very specific about what you want to do, and how you want to begin. You should definitely think long term, too. But goodness, it's not a bad thing to start small, and in fact I really really believe that is kind of the way you have to do it and just do a little plug. There's a wonderful man who I would consider a mentor and certainly someone I have looked up to and learned a lot from. His name is Paul Polak, and he wrote a book called "Out of Poverty." He really talks a lot about being in contact like designing whatever you are designing, particularly if it's a program, or a service, or a product to serve the poor, go be with the people that you want to serve. Go get to know them as individuals and design things for individuals not this group of statistic of statistics or the masses. Go meet real people, design for them, start with the, serve them, and then see how you can grow things. That would be my recommendation, don't be afraid to start small and be really passionate about what you are doing because that's the way good things happen. Lucy: Dare I say that that I am old and wizened woman but you know your advice about starting small and don't be afraid to do that, it feels a lot like something I've come to view as being true. You just often don't know what the next turn is going to be. You have to live it a while, and see how things change and mature, and then be opportunistic about which way things are going to go because you often don't see the end. Jessica: Oh, yes and you can't. Lucy: You can't. Jessica: You actually probably sometimes cannot see the next step. It is totally impossible until you make the first one. Lucy: That's fine and that's actually part of the fun, isn't it? Larry: It is part of the fun. It's also by the way a big part of the book that I'm just finishing. Lucy: Oh, you had to plug your book. Larry: "Master and change," yes. Lucy: You had to plug your book. Larry: Oh well. Lucy: Well so I think we have a book here. So I have to ask you though, is there such a big about entrepreneurism and Kiva about teaching the basic elements of entrepreneurship? Jessica: No, not yet, but I think there are about 20 books we can write with them, different angles, different experiences, Web 2.0, the power of connecting people, what have we learned about business from the entrepreneurs out there? There's a lot of potential. Lucy: Oh, absolutely. I look forward to it. Jessica: Yeah, me too. Lucy: You've already really achieved a lot. It's quite inspirational to talk to you and kiva is just such a great organization. What's next for you? We just talked about how sometimes you can't see around the corner, do you have any long term vision that you want to share with our listeners about what's next? Jessica: No, I don't, but I will say that something that's been crazy is just this feeling that... I mean this is like my life dream. You read my favorite business school. I would say it was from three years ago. I would say it was basically someday maybe maybe I will get to be a part of something like this. I feel like the luckiest person in the world and to think that there could be other things in the future just blows my mind. I feel overwhelmed even thinking about it but overall in the most positive way because I already feel like this is my life. If my life ended tomorrow, I would be very a really thankful, happy person because I feel like I've gotten to see my dream kind of come true. Everything else is icing on the cake. What I am trying to do is to stay open to possibility, and learn, and read, and talk to people, and stay open to observing what is going on out there. I am thankful for kiva, and I am thankful for whatever the future hold, but yeah I'll let you know when I know. Larry: All right. Lucy: That has to be the most inspirational thing I have ever heard. I mean just to hear the passion in your voice and the excitement, it gives me goose bumps. I'm happy for you. I hope other people benefit from all the work that you are doing. Jessica: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I just feel very very lucky. Larry: Wow, Jessica I want to thank you for joining us today. This was marvelous plus. Jessica: Thank you. Man 1: By the way you listeners out there, would you pass this interview along to others who you think would be interested. We will make sure that we have a website link to kiva. Say your website. Jessica: It's www.kiva.org. Larry: Sounds wonderful. This has just been great here we are with the National Center for Women and Information Technology. You are doing some great stuff by bringing these messages out for people who are doing wonderful things. Thanks. Lucy: Well thanks and listeners can find these interviews at www.ncwit.org and at w3w3.com. Larry: You bet. Lucy: So thank you very much. Larry: Thank you. Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Jessica JackleyInterview Summary: Jessica is a remarkable social entrepreneur who is Co-Founder and Chief Marketing Officer of www.kiva.org -- the first peer-to-peer micro-lending website. Kiva connects lenders with entrepreneurs from the developing world, empowering them to rise out of poverty. Release Date: September 29, 2008Interview Subject: Jessica JackleyInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 25:02