Podcasts about jessica it

“In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her.”How do you feel when you meet with your provider? Are you excited for your appointments? How does your body react? Are you tense or calm and relaxed? Jessica's first birth began with an induction that she consented to but didn't really want. Her waters were artificially broken, and her baby just was not in a great position. After over 4 hours of pushing and multiple vacuum attempts, Jessica consented to a Cesarean. Listen to Jessica's VBAC story to find out what she did when she realized at 37 weeks that her provider was NOT actually VBAC-supportive.Sometimes difficult situations actually work out even better than we hoped!How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, Jessica, to the show. I am so excited that you are here and excited to hear your stories and actually talk a little bit more about what you do. Do you do it for a living, or is this just your passion project or whatever they call it? Is it your side job?Jessica: It's on the side. It's volunteer. My main job is a stay-at-home mom right now. Meagan: Yes. You're homeschooling, right? Jessica: I am. Meagan: Oh my gosh. One of my best friends homeschools. I just praise you guys. Homeschooling is legit. It is very hard. That seems so hard. Jessica: It's definitely a lifestyle. It's different. It's not for everybody, but it's definitely for us. My daughter is only 5 so we are just getting used to it. Meagan: So Kindergarten?Jessica: She just turned 5 a couple of weeks ago, so we are technically doing 4-K right now. We are just getting into it. I'm still wondering every day, “Am I doing everything I should be?” I know as it goes on, I will get more comfortable and confident with it. Meagan: Yes, you will. That's what I've seen with my friend. She was like, “This is what feels right. This is what we are going to do.” It took a little bit of a learning curve, then each kid added in, but she kills it. Yes, you are just a stay-at-home mom, but a full-time teacher. Holy cow. That's amazing. Then yeah, you are doing La Leche League. Jessica: Yes. I have been a leader now for 2.5 years, just over that. I became certified. I think it was on my due date. I was trying to get everything done before my toddler was born. It's been going really great. I really like it. Meagan: Yes. Tell us more about it because when I was– this was in 2014– pregnant with my second daughter. That's when I heard about La Leche League. Tell us more about it and why someone would want to find their local leader, and then what all the benefits are and how to find them. Jessica: Sure. I first heard about La Leche League when my oldest was maybe about 9 months, so right away in my breastfeeding journey, I had no idea about it. I wish I had because it would have been great to have a community of support. I started feeling really passionate about breastfeeding and knew I wanted to help other moms with it because it can feel really isolating, especially because it was in the middle of the pandemic. I started researching ways that moms can help other moms with breastfeeding because I had no other background in it. I'm not a nurse. I didn't work in the labor world. I just stumbled upon it, and I lived in Madison at the time. I saw that Madison had a chapter. They weren't doing meetings at the time because everything was virtual. But I just reached out, and I said, “I want to be a leader. Tell me what I need to do.” They emailed me back, and I got in touch with another local leader there who had been there for a while. She was surprised. She was like, “You want to be a leader, but you don't even know what we do. You've never been to a meeting.” I just said, “Yes. That is what I want to do.” It was kind of a long process to become a leader because everything was virtual. They didn't know how to go about that. Meagan: Yeah. Jessica: So it took a little bit of a long time to become accredited as a leader. Meagan: Does it now or is it in person? Did it stay virtual? For someone who may want to?Jessica: I think everything is back to in-person. At least where I live now, Madison I know is back to in-person now too. Everything is probably running a little bit more smoothly now in terms of if you are interested in becoming a leader. Basically what leaders do is that we get some training within La Leche League, but we are your cheerleaders. We are here to support you. We are the middle ground between if we need to refer you somewhere for some additional help if it's beyond our scope of practice of basic breastfeeding positioning, latching, or if you have questions of, “My baby is doing this. Is it normal?” That's what we do. We have support groups every month for anybody to really join. Meagan: Awesome. Jessica: It's fun. Meagan: Where can someone find it if they're wanting to learn more? When it comes to breastfeeding, it sounds weird because you don't have your baby yet, so why are we talking about breastfeeding? Why are we thinking about it? But I really believe that connecting before we have our babies with an IBCLC or a La Leche group is so important before you have your baby. If someone is looking, where can they find information or try to search for a chapter in their area? Jessica: You can just look up your state La Leche League. There should be a website that has all of the local chapters. They are all over the world, so you should be able to find somebody near you. Even if there's not one near you, you can contact anybody. Let's say they are 2 hours away. You can still call or text or email. They'll usually, if you want to do something more in person, you can do some type of Zoom meeting. You can definitely find anybody to talk to. You're right. It's really important to get support before you even start breastfeeding if you know that's something you want to do. I always say that breastfeeding is natural, but it doesn't always come naturally. You don't know what to do in the beginning unless you talk to somebody. Meagan: Yes. We will make sure to have the website linked in the show notes too, so if anyone is wanting to go search, definitely go check it out. Okay, now we are going to give a little teaser of what your episode is going to be about today. So, with your C-section, give us a little teaser of what your C-section was for. Jessica: So, my first birth went really smoothly and my pregnancy. I really liked my doctor. I really liked the hospital. It was a group of OBs of all women. I met with each of them. I really liked all of them, to be honest with you. They were all very supportive of whatever you wanted to do.Meagan: Which is awesome. Jessica: Yes, it is. I knew I wanted to have a vaginal birth. That was all I really knew, but I was also really young, I think. I was 23 for most of my pregnancy. I didn't really educate myself beyond my doctor's appointments. I trusted them to pretty much tell me what I needed to know, and that was it. That was my bad. Meagan: Yeah. Hey, listen. That is something I can relate to so much. I was also in my young 20s and just went in. Whatever they said, or whatever my app said, is what happened. I think that's a little tip right there that says, “Let's not do that.” Let's not do that. Then for your VBAC, you had a bait and switch. I'm really excited, when we get to that point, to talk about bait and switch because it is something that happens. It can feel so good and then feel so wrong within minutes. It's really frustrating, but I want to talk more about that in just a minute. We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to hurry and read that, then get into Jessica's story. This reviewer is by diabeticmamawarrior. It says, “A podcast to educate the mind, heal the heart, and strengthen the soul.” It says, “Hi. I am writing this podcast from Seattle. We are currently pregnant with my second baby due in March of 2022.” This was a little bit ago. It says, “My first son was born at 28 weeks via classical Cesarean due to severe IUGR.” For anyone who doesn't know IUGR, that is intrauterine growth restriction.“--and after hearing I would never be able to VBAC, I decided to do as much educated research as I could and to find my options was truly needed. I am also a Type 1 Diabetic and have successfully found an amazing midwife who not only feels comfortable and confident assisting in care through my pregnancy with my diabetes, but also with my special scar, and we are aiming for a successful VBAC. I am also receiving concurrent care with an OB/GYN as well to make sure appropriate monitoring of baby looks good throughout pregnancy. Listening to this podcast was one of the first resources I found, and it was a total GAME CHANGER.” It says, “Thank you, beautiful women, who bravely and shamelessly share your stories so that other women can also feel confident in making empowered decisions for their baby and their body. I am soon to join the legacy of women who have fearlessly VBAC'd happy and healthy babies. Much love, Ellen”. Meagan: Wow. What a beautiful review. Jessica: That was powerful. Meagan: Yes. What a beautiful review. That was a couple of years ago, so Ellen, if you are still listening, please reach out to us and let us know how things went. Okay, girl. It is your turn. It is your turn to share, just like what Ellen was saying, your beautiful stories, and empower other Women of Strength all over the world. Jessica: That review just reminded me that a long time ago, I reviewed the podcast, and you read it on one of the episodes. Meagan: Did we?Jessica: We did. I remember thinking, “This is so cool. I wonder if I could be on someday.” I'm sure you hear this all the time, but it's very surreal being here knowing I listened to this podcast to help me heal. I'm just super excited to share my story. Meagan: I am so glad that you are here, and I'm so glad that we were able to read your review. We love reading reviews. It is so fun when we can hear the review, hear the journey, and then now here it is hearing the stories. Jessica: Yes. Meagan: Yes. Okay, well I'd love to turn the time over to you. Jessica: Like I said, I was introducing my story with my first. I just clicked through a birth course breastfeeding course that the hospital provided for me. I clicked through it to get it done and to check it off my list. Meagan: Birth education– yes, I did. Jessica: That's exactly what I did. I'm prepared, whatever. I'm just going to go into this, and everything will happen like it's supposed to. Mentally, everything was going well in my pregnancy. I wasn't super eager to give birth. I wanted to wait to go into labor on my own. I think what started to bother me or what made me a little bit more antsy was when I was 37 weeks. I agreed to have my cervix checked for dilation, and I was 3 centimeters already. I was so excited, and the doctor said, “I don't even think you're going to make it to your due date,” which made me think, “Wow. I'm going to have this baby in the next 2 weeks. I'm not even going to make it to my due date. This is so exciting.” If any of your doctors ever tell you that, don't let it get into your head because that doesn't mean anything if you are dilated. I was 3 centimeters continuously. Meagan: Yeah. You can walk around at 6 centimeters, not even kidding you. My sister-in-law was at 6 centimeters for weeks, and nothing was happening. She was just at 6 centimeters. It can happen when you are just walking around. Try not to let them get into your head, or to get nervous when you're like, “I could have a baby at any second.” It gets in our heads, and then when we don't have a baby, it's infuriating and defeating. Jessica: That is pretty much what happened. When I got to my 39-week appointment, I was still 3 centimeters. I just expressed how I was frustrated. I was tired of being pregnant. My doctor said, “Well, let's set up your induction.” I had never even thought of being induced at that point. It was never mentioned. It never crossed my mind. It sounded so intriguing at that moment to just get this over with. I don't want to be pregnant anymore. My sisters had been induced, and they had a good experience. It will go the same for me. Everything in my head was telling me, “Don't do this. You know you don't want this,” but I did it anyway because I had it in my mind that I should have had my baby already anyway based on what they told me a couple of weeks ago, so it would go so smoothly. She said, “You are a great candidate. You are already 3 centimeters.” We scheduled it. I think it was that Friday I went. It was Monday, on Labor Day, that we had my induction scheduled for. I didn't have a lot of time to even process that. Meagan: Yeah. Did they say how they wanted to do it, or did they just say, “Come in. Have a baby”?Jessica: They briefly told me that they would start with Pitocin and see how my body responded to that. They would probably break my water which is exactly how it happened anyway. Meagan: Yeah.Jessica: Yeah.They started me with Pitocin at 3:00 PM. They kept increasing it, then by 6:00 PM, my body was just not responding to it. I didn't feel anything. The doctor who was on call wasn't my normal doctor, but I saw her a couple of times. I was comfortable with her. She came in and said, “Well, we could break your water. Is that what you want to do?” I said, “Sure. If that's what you think we need to do, let's do it.” Meagan: Yeah, I'm here to have a baby. What's going to get me there?Jessica: Yeah. She was head down, so I thought, “What could go wrong? She's already head down.” I didn't know at the time that just because she was head down doesn't mean she's in a great position. She wasn't. She was– what do they call it?Meagan: Posterior? Jessica: ROT. Meagan: Right occiput transverse. Okay, so looking to the side. Sometimes, when we say transverse, a lot of people think the body is transverse which is a transverse lie, but ROT, LOT, left or right occiput transverse, means the baby's head is looking to the side, and sometimes, that can delay labor or cause irregular patterns because our baby is just not quite rotated around or tucked. They are looking to the side. Jessica: Right. That was pretty much what the obstacle was because when they broke my water, she engaged that way, so her head never was able to turn properly which we didn't know yet. I feel like the doctors could have known that because aren't they supposed to be able to feel and know maybe a little bit of where they are? Meagan: Yeah. So providers can. They can internally, and it depends on how far dilated you are. If you were still 3 centimeters, probably not as well, but at 3 centimeters AROM, where we are artificially breaking it, that's not ideal. Usually, the baby is at a higher station at that point too. I call it opening the floodgates. We get what we get however that baby decides to come down, especially if baby is higher up and not well-applied to the cervix.If baby is looking transverse and hasn't been able to rotate right during labor, then they come down like that, and then we have a further obstacle to navigate because we've got to move baby's head. I will say that sometimes a baby might be looking transverse and mainly through pushing, a provider can sometimes rotate a baby's head internally vaginally, but you have to be fully dilated and things like that. Can they feel through the bag of waters? If they can feel a good head, yes. Sometimes they can. Sometimes they can't, but again, there are all of these things that as a doula anyway, I help my clients run through a checklist if they are going to choose to break their water. Sometimes within your situation, I'd be like, “Maybe let's wait.” But their view was, “Let's get labor going. We are starting Pitocin. The body's not responding,” which we know is a number-one sign that the body isn't ready. Sometimes we still can break water with better head application and with the water gone, it can speed labor up. That's where their mind was. Their mind probably wasn't, what position is this baby in? Where is this baby at? What station is this baby at? It's like, let's get this baby's head applied to the cervix. Jessica: Yes. I mean, it did work. As soon as my water broke, I immediately when into active labor. The Pitocin contractions were very awful. I felt them immediately because not only did my body start going into labor, but then the Pitocin also was making it worse. Meagan: Yes. Yes. Jessica: So I begged for an epidural right away even though I knew that's not what I wanted. I didn't do a lot of preparing for labor, but I know I didn't want an epidural right away. I remember the very sweet nurse I had saying, “Do you want me to run the bath for you?” I said, “Are you crazy? That is not what I need right now.” Meagan: She's like, “I'm trying to help you with your birth preferences.” J: I know. She was so nice. I apologized to her after later on when I saw her. That was the head space I was in. I just needed that pain to be gone. They ended up turning the Pitocin off eventually because my body just did what it needed to do on its own. Meagan: Good. Jessica: I didn't get much rest after that. I couldn't really sleep. I was too excited. But it wasn't very long until I was ready to push after that. I think at about 7:00 PM, I got the epidural, and at midnight, I was ready to push. I kept trying and trying. 4.5 hours went by until she was just not coming over. I don't know if it was my pelvic bone or something. That's when we knew she was not going to turn. They suggested that we try the vacuum. I didn't know what that was. That was very traumatic because the lights were bright. Everyone was in there. I remember my doctor saying, “Okay, we have one more attempt with this vacuum, and that's our last attempt.” Of course, it didn't work because in my mind, I knew it was my last chance. It was not going to work, and it didn't. I was really upset after that. I remember crying saying, “I don't want a C-section.” I was really afraid of it. But, that is just what we had to do to get her out at that point after attempting the vacuum. I remember being wheeled down to the OR and just being so tired and not knowing how I was going to take care of a newborn after having surgery and being so tired. I had been up for 24 hours. The C-section went fine. I was out of it though. I was passing out here and there just being so tired. They had to tell me to actually look up. “Your baby's here. Look up.” I remember opening up my eyes going, “What?” I was forgetting what I was doing. Meagan: Out of it. Jessica: Yeah. I was very much out of it. But after that in the hospital, I wasn't too upset about having a C-section. I was just so excited about having my baby. It really didn't hit me until we were on the way home from the hospital. I started crying and was so upset. I felt like my experience was stolen from me because I felt like  I was so mad at my doctor for bringing up an induction at that point knowing if she didn't, I would have never asked for one anyway. I had a lot of regrets about everything. In those couple of weeks after having her, your hormones are very up and down anyway. One moment, I would be fine. One moment, I would be really, really upset crying about it. I wanted to redo her birth so badly that it almost made me want another baby. “If we just have another kid, we can try again,” even though I had this 3-week-old next to me. Meagan: Yeah. Jessica: I was not thinking very clearly. Meagan: You were craving a different experience. That's just part of your processing. Jessica: Yes. And looking back, I wonder if I was struggling with some PTSD because I would lie there at night not being able to sleep, and I would suddenly smell when they were cauterizing the wound. I would suddenly smell that again and think I was back in the OR. It wasn't very fun. Meagan: Yeah. It's weird how sometimes the experience can hit you in all different stages and in different ways, but right after, you're like, “No. No, no, no. I need something different. Let's have another baby right now. Let's do this.” So once you did become ready to have another baby, what did that look like? What did that prep look like? Did you switch doctors? You liked your whole practice. How did that look for you?Jessica: Well, we moved. I knew I had to find another doctor. I would have anyway in Madison. I would have gone with a group of midwives that somebody I knew had a good experience with, and after listening to the podcast, I wanted a midwife. But unfortunately, where we moved, we live in Green Bay now. I was so limited on which provider I could go with. In one hospital, one group, that was all I could do locally. I couldn't go with the hospital that everybody was recommending or the midwives that everybody was recommending for a VBAC. Meagan: Why couldn't you go there?Jessica: My insurance was very limited. It still is. We can only go to this one hospital and one facility for doctors. Meagan: Okay, so it was insurance restrictions. Yeah, not necessarily a lack of support in your area. It just was insurance which is another conversation for a later date. Stop restricting everybody. Jessica: I was very surprised because when we were in Madison, I could go wherever I wanted and see whoever I wanted. I ended up just choosing somebody. I liked her. She was initially very supportive of having a VBAC. I had mentioned it in my very first appointment that this was what I want. She said, “Oh, I'm so excited for you. This is going to be great.” I even mentioned that I was still breastfeeding my daughter when I was pregnant. They just seemed very supportive of all things natural and all things birth. Meagan: Everything. Jessica: Yeah. There were no issues whatsoever. I had already hired my doula when I was 6 weeks pregnant. I had already talked to them before I had even saw my doctor. I told them about how I was really limited and this was where I had to go, but I felt very supported knowing I had a doula and knowing I had somebody on my side It didn't really bother me at the time that I just had to pick whatever doctor I could. This was also a practice where the doctor I had wasn't going to be probably who I would give birth with. That also didn't bother me because I thought, “I have a doula. I have support. I know after listening to this podcast what I need to do to defend myself if that time were to come.” Meagan: Advocate for yourself, yeah. You felt more armed. Jessica: I did. I really did. I ended up seeing a chiropractor as well which was very helpful throughout my pregnancy. I loved going to the chiropractor. Not only did it help get her in a good position, but I also just didn't really feel body aches as much as I did, so there were a couple of benefits to going there. I definitely recommend a chiropractor. Meagan: I agree. I didn't go until my VBAC baby. I started going at 18 weeks, and I'm like, “Why didn't I do this with the other babies?” It was just amazing. Jessica: Yeah. It really is. But my doctor's appointments this time were very different. They were very rushed. They felt robotic. “How are you feeling? Great. Let's get the heartbeat. Any questions? No.” I really kept my questions for my doulas anyway because I really trusted them. I don't know. I didn't feel like I had many questions anyway because I knew what I wanted. I knew I wanted to show up to the hospital basically ready to push. One of the red flags, I will say, that looking back now with this provider that I had initially is that she never asked for any type of birth plan. She knew I wanted a VBAC, and I thought it was a good thing that she wasn't really asking details. I felt like, “Oh, she's letting me do my thing.” But looking back, I think it was just because she knew that's not what was going to happen. She knew. Meagan: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. We've had providers who have told people here in Utah. The client will say, “Hey, I really want to talk about my birth preferences.” The provider will say, “You're really early. We don't need to talk about that right now. We could talk about that later.” Or, “Hey, I was thinking I want to talk about this. Can we talk about that?” “No, not today. It's fine. Whatever you want.” Then it comes, and we'll hear more about your experience. I'm sure it will relate to a lot of people's bait-and-switch stories. Jessica: Yeah. They sound so supportive in the moment, and then it's not looking back. It continued on through my whole pregnancy. Even when I was 35 weeks, she suggested a cervical dilation check. I denied it at that point. I thought it was too early. 35 weeks is very early. Meagan: 35 weeks? Yeah. Jessica: I'm really glad that I stood up for myself and said no, because I was having one of those moments of, do I just do it anyway? I said no, and she was very fine with it. She said, “That's fine. You don't have to if you don't want to. We don't have to.” I also thought that was a good sign. Meagan: You're like, “Yes. If we don't have to, why are we suggesting it in the first place?” But I can also see where you're like, “Well, sweet. She's respecting my wishes. I didn't want to. She's saying, ‘Okay'.” Jessica: Exactly. But I made the mistake of agreeing to it at my next appointment because my curiosity got the best of me. I knew that it wasn't important for me to be dilated, but I was trying to compare it to my last pregnancy. At 37 weeks, I was 3 centimeters with my first. I wonder if I'm going to have a different experience this time. Let's see where we're at. I was at 0. I just thought, “That's totally normal. I have a lot of time left.” Her demeanor changed very much. It was like at my appointments before, she was a different person now. Meagan: Oh. Jessica: She said, “Well, if we're not showing any signs of labor by 40 weeks, we need to schedule your C-section.” Meagan: Oh no. Jessica: She must have noticed I was surprised. I said, “But I don't want a C-section. Did you not remember that I'm going to have a VBAC?” She said, “Well, you don't want to risk your baby's life.” Meagan: Bleh. Barf. No. Jessica: Yes. Yes. I knew that was just a scare tactic. I luckily was not phased by it. I was educated. I mentioned something along the lines of, “Well, wouldn't we try to induce me before we jump ahead to the C-section? There's no medical need.” My pregnancies were so boring. There was nothing that would indicate anything, not even an induction, but I thought, “Why not even just mention that before a C-section?” She said something like, “There are too many risks involved.” That was the end of the conversation on her end. She pretty much wrapped it up and said, “It's pretty slippery out there. Be careful,” and walked out. Yeah. The conversation was over. In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her. I went back to the parking lot. I was crying. I texted my doulas right away what happened. I said, “I need to figure something out very quickly. I'm 37 weeks. I know I can't go back to her. Can you please help me figure something out?” They were so, so extremely helpful with helping me figure out my options. I thought that at this point– in the beginning of my pregnancy, I knew, “I'll just stand up for myself. I know what I want,” but when you are very big and pregnant, and you are very vulnerable, you don't want to do all of that arguing. You just want somebody who is going to support you. I just knew I couldn't go back to her. I didn't have the energy to try to defend myself or advocate for myself. I just needed somebody who was already going to support my decisions. They encouraged me to look a little bit further out of Green Bay which I didn't initially want to do. I wanted the hospital to be close. I had a 2-year-old. I didn't want to be far away from her. But knowing I had limited options, I looked a little bit farther out. I texted them, “Hey, there is this doctor who I can go to in Neenah. It's pretty far. I said her name. I don't know if I'm supposed to say doctors' names. Meagan: You can. Yeah. You can. People will actually love it so they can go find support themselves. Jessica: Yeah. I said, “There is this doctor, Dr. Swift, who is down in Neenah. That's the only one who is really popping up on my insurance who I can go to.” They immediately texted back, “You need to go see her. She's amazing.” My doula had actually had her VBAC with Dr. Swift. They were like, “You need to go see her. This your other option.” Meagan: Oh, Sara Swift is on our list of providers. Jessica: She is. She's amazing. Meagan: She is. Okay, so you're like, “I've got this doctor's name.” Jessica: I called them to make myself an appointment, and I wasn't able to get in until the following Friday. It would have been after I was 38 weeks. I told doula– Meagan: That's when you had your last baby, right?Jessica: No, actually my last baby was at 39 weeks, but I didn't know what was going to happen. I told them, and my doula was actually personal friends with her. She said, “No, that's not going to work. I'm going to text her, and I'm going to get you in sooner.” I think it was a Wednesday at that time. I was able to go see her Friday. Yeah. Meagan: A week earlier than you would have been able to. Jessica: Yeah. I helped me to feel more relieved knowing that if I had gone into labor before that next appointment, I would have known where to go. I would have had a doctor established. I was very, very relieved to see her. It was such a different experience than my other doctors. I had to bring my two-year-old with me, and at that point, she was getting antsy, so Dr. Swift actually sat on the ground with my daughter and was coloring with her while we were talking to keep her busy. I just remember thinking, “There's no other doctor out there who would do this for a very pregnant patient.” It felt very much like a conversation between friends. It didn't feel like a robotic type of conversation I had with my previous doctor. She very much upfront said to me, “Our hospital has VBAC policies. Here they are. You can deny anything you want. They're not going to allow you to eat food, but if you say you want to eat food, you can eat. They're going to want continuous fetal monitoring, but if that's not what you want, tell them what you want.” It felt like she just was supportive of what I wanted to do. She said something along the lines of, “I'm going to trust you and your body to make the decisions that you need to, but also know that if I need to step in, trust that I'm going to do what I need to.” It felt so mutual there. I was so excited to go back and see her every week. I'm actually kind of mad that I waited that long to see her. Meagan: Yeah. Mhmm. I'm sure you felt like you were breathing in a whole different way. Jessica: I was. I felt very excited. The drive was longer, but it didn't even matter at that point. I went from a 15-minute drive to 45 and it didn't feel like there was any difference. It was all worth it. Meagan: I agree. It's sometimes daunting with that drive or the time, but you guys, it's so worth it. If you can make it work, make it work. I'm so glad. Okay, yeah. So you found this provider. Everything was feeling good. Jessica: It was feeling great. I actually ended up going past my due date. Meagan: Okay. Jessica: I was feeling a little bit– not defeated– I wanted to make it to my due date because I wanted to make it there with my first. I was excited when I got to my due date, and then I thought, “Okay, when is this actually going to happen? I've got a two-year-old.” My in-laws were coming up to watch her when we were going to the hospital. They live 2.5 hours away. I was starting to worry about, how is this all going to work out? But it really did. I felt my very first contraction two days after my due date. It was a Friday night at 6:30. We were getting my daughter ready for bed, and I felt that first contraction. I knew it was different than Braxton Hicks. I just knew, but I don't even know to say if that's when my labor started because that continued all throughout the weekend every 15 minutes. It was not a fun weekend. I kept thinking things were going to pick up, and then they would die down. Meagan: Prodromal labor maybe. Jessica: Yeah, I think so. At one point, I had my doula come over in the middle of the night. I didn't know when to go to the hospital. I didn't know if it was time or whatever. She came to my house in the middle of the night just to help me with the Miles Circuit and just the different position changes I could do. I believe that was on that Friday night that I started labor. I was also able to get into the chiropractor that weekend. They were closed, but again, my doula was very close friends with the chiropractor and texted, “Hey, Jessica could really use an adjustment. She's not in labor, but it's not progressing. Can you help her?” I went to go see them on Saturday and on Sunday just to get things moving. She was in a really great position. Everybody could feel that she was just in the perfect position. It was just that these contractions could not get closer together no matter what I tried. Something told me, “Hey, you need your water broken for this to progress,” because I couldn't do it anymore mentally or physically. I was exhausted. I didn't want to initially because I knew that's what prevented me from having the birth that I wanted in the first place with my first experience, but something also told me, “Hey, you need to go do this.” My intuition was super strong in those moments where I knew. My intuition was strong enough to switch doctors that late in my pregnancy. There wasn't another option. This time also, my intuition told me, “You have to go in, and they have to break your water.” I knew Dr. Swift would be supportive of that because she was supporting any type of birth plan I really wanted. She told me at any point, I could be induced, but that she wouldn't bring it up again. It was my decision. On Sunday night after we got my daughter to bed, we drove to the hospital. We let them know we were coming. Our doula met us there, and we just told them our plans. Dr. Swift, I remember, said, “Well, if I break your water now, you're so exhausted from the whole weekend. Do you want to try sleeping for a little bit and we will do it in the morning?” I said, “I can't sleep. I'm having these contractions every 15 minutes.” It was really funny. She said, “Well if you want to sleep, I'll give you something to help you sleep.” If anybody has ever met her or knows her, she's got a great personality. It was just funny in that moment. It's what I needed in that moment to have a good laugh. I was like, “Yes. Give me anything I need right now to rest just a little bit before the morning.” In the morning, she came back in around 8:00 or 8:30. I don't remember what time it was. She said, “Yep. Let's do this.” They double-checked me again to make sure she was in a great position. At that point, I was actually 4 centimeters. I forgot to bring that up. Meagan: Yay, okay. Great. Jessica: Yes, so those contractions I was experiencing over the weekend were productive. I felt better about that. I didn't want to break my water with being one of two centimeters. I felt good. Again, my intuition was telling me, “You need to do this.” Yeah. They did, and once again, it immediately put me into active labor. My doula was helping me with counterpressure, then they ended up running a bath for me which was very helpful. I was skeptical. I did not think that was going to work. When they were filling it, I remember thinking, “This is a waste of my time. This is not going to work,” but it was very helpful. At one point in the bath, I just remember feeling, “Okay, now I have to get out and I have to start moving around.” As soon as I got up, I just remember feeling things intensify. I got that feeling in my head like, “I can't do this anymore.” I knew that at that point, it was getting close because of that feeling of, “I can't do this anymore.” Meagan: Yeah, mhmm. Jessica: I had just a moment of weakness and I said, “I want an epidural right now.” Even though I knew in my mind that it was too late, I couldn't help but ask them for that epidural. Thankfully, my doula knew that's not what I wanted, so she helped prolong that process. She said, “Well, why don't we start with a bag of fluids and we'll see how it goes from there? We can ask them, but they might be busy.” That's exactly what I needed. I knew that's not what I wanted. Meagan: She knew that, and she knew how to advocate for you, and she knew you well enough what you needed to prolong it. Jessica: Yes. I'm very thankful for that because she could have said, “All right, let's get it right now.” But she knew and I had made it very clear that was not what I wanted to do. We started with a bag of fluids, and at that point, I could feel my body start to push itself. This was about 3 hours after my water was broken. It was a very quick process from then until that moment. While I was pushing, the anesthesiologist did come in the room. I remember the anesthesiologist did come in the room, and I remember he said something like, “Who's ready for the epidural?” My doctor said, “No, we're having a baby. Get out.” He came in in the middle of me pushing, and I feel like I scared every other mom there with how loud I was, but I couldn't help it. Meagan: Sometimes you just have to roar your baby out. Listen, it's okay.Jessica: I really did. I really did roar her out in 20 minutes. Meagan: Wow. Jessica: After that, I don't remember feeling any other pain. The pressure was gone, and I remember just feeling like, oh my gosh. I did it. She's here, and I get my skin-to-skin with her which I didn't get the first time. I get to have this experience. I can't believe I actually did it. Meagan: And you did. Jessica: I did. Meagan: You did it. Jessica: There is so much more than you just having that VBAC. Throughout the journey, you grew. You grew as an individual. You grew as a mom listening to your intuition. You really, really grew, and then to have that baby again placed on your chest, oh, how amazing and how redemptive. Meagan: It was so redemptive and healing. In that moment, I didn't feel any type of way about my C-section anymore. I wasn't upset about it. I really had a feeling that it happened for a reason because if it didn't, I don't think I would have tried to educate myself about birth. I would have probably done it a second time, an induction, if it went well the first time. I also don't think I would have fought so hard the first time to breastfeed because I felt like I had to make it work. I didn't get the birth I wanted, so I had to make this work at least. I personally think that my C-section happened for a reason the first time. In that moment, I remember feeling a wave of, “I'm not upset anymore. I got this experience.”Meagan: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I kind of had that same view to a point. I do feel a little grumpy with how my births went because knowing what I know now, I am realizing that they didn't need to happen that way. I likely never needed a Cesarean ever. I just probably didn't. But, it's the same thing like you. I wouldn't have focused so hard on this. I wouldn't have done this. I would not be the person I am today. I would not be the birth doula that I am today. I would not be the podcaster today. I don't think I would have ever started a podcast on any other topic because I'm so deeply passionate about this topic and birth and helping have better experiences, so I really hold onto those experiences and cherish them. It sounds weird because it wasn't the birth we wanted, but it's what brought us here today. Jessica: Yeah, exactly. I also wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't have my C-section. I don't think I would have been interested in birth. I love it now. I think in the future, I would love to be a doula. I just recently took an exam to become a certified lactation consultant. I haven't gotten my results back yet, but I don't think I would have gone down that path yet either if I wouldn't have had my C-section and fought so hard for breastfeeding to work. I felt like I found my passion within that circumstance that was very unfortunate, and it shouldn't have happened, but it did. Meagan: But it did, and you've grown from it. We want to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. If this podcast is for VBAC moms, it's just as much for first-time moms in my opinion because we obviously have an issue with the Cesarean rate. We do. It's a serious issue. Jessica: Yeah, it is. Meagan: But with that said, I encourage you if you are listening, and maybe you haven't been able to process your past experience yet, or you are fresh out of it, and it's very thick, and it's very heavy and dark because we know that can sometimes be that way, I hope and I encourage you to keep listening, to keep learning, and to keep growing, because that darkness will become light again. Those feelings– I don't know about go away, but they will lift. I don't know how to explain it. Jessica: You might feel different about it. You might feel different about it than you did originally. Meagan: Your perspective will change. It's going to take time. It's going to take processing. It's going to take healing. It's going to be finding the education, finding the right team, finding the right support system, but it is possible. It is really, really, really possible, and take Jessica and my word right now, because we really have been there. We really understand so many of the feelings. I know that we all process feelings differently, and we're all in different places, especially depending on the types of births that we had. I know that there are way more traumatic experiences that happen out there, but this community is here for you.We love you. We are here to support you. Keep listening to the stories. Find the groups. Find the healing, and know that it is possible to step out of this space and to grow. It's weird to think, but one day, you're going to look back and say, “I might be grateful. I might be grateful that happened.” Yeah. Like I said, I'm not happy. I'm not happy it happened, but I'm going to cherish that. I'm going to try and flip it. I've made it a positive experience that it's brought me to where I am today. It's brought me to be in a place where I can share my story just like Jessica and all of the other Women of Strength before her to help women feel inspired and to avoid those future devastations and unfortunate situations. Jessica: Yeah. Don't let anybody try to tell you not to feel a certain way about it because I've had plenty of people tell me, “But you're healthy. But you have a healthy baby, you can try again next time.” I just said, “You don't understand. You're not in my position. I know there are people who do understand me.” Most of you who are listening will understand that yes, you have a healthy baby and you're fine, but it was still not what you wanted. That experience is so personal. You want what you want. Meagan: You want what you want, and you're not selfish for wanting it. You're really not. I think that's really important because sometimes I think we are made to feel that we are selfish for wanting a different experience especially out there in the world, a lot of people say, “Why would you want that? Why would you risk that? You are selfish. Just be grateful for what you have. Just be grateful that you do have your baby and that you and your baby are okay.” No. No. The answer is no. Last but not least, I really wanted to share a little bit more about the bait and switch and how to recognize that because you guys, it can be hard to recognize. I don't ever believe that these providers are sneakily trying to fool us, but maybe they are. I don't know. I'll tell you, they do. They do fool us. I don't know if that's because our judgment is clouded or what, but I think it's important to feel that inside. What does your heart do when your provider walks in? What do your hands do? Do they clam up? Do they clench? Do they freeze? What does your body do? Are your shoulders rising up? Are they relaxed? Does your face have a smile on it? Really tune into who your provider is making you be. Are they making you a tense ball, or are they making you relaxed and excited?I mean, really Jessica, the way you are talking about Dr. Swift, it sounds like she is amazing. She's like, “Here. Here are the policies. I want you to know these. These are things that you are going to be up against. You might have to fight for intermittent monitoring instead of continuous. You might have to fight for this and this, but hey. I'm here. I'm on your side. We have these policies, but I'm here. Use your voice.” That was just so amazing. Jessica: It was amazing. I'm sad that I'm not going to have another child because I don't get to go see her for appointments then. I really wish I would have met her sooner. That's the type of doctor your need is when you actually want to go see them. That's a big difference. You're not thinking ahead of your appointment, “Well, I wonder if there is anybody else.” Meagan: Okay, I love that you said that. Check in with yourself and see if you are excited to see your provider. That's how I was. I would look forward. I would look at the calendar and be like, “Oh my gosh. I get to see my midwife this week. This is so exciting,” because I would remember the way that she made me feel when I would get there. She would embrace me with a hug. “How are you doing, genuinely? How are you doing? How are you feeling?” We would chat, and it was a conversation like you said, like two friends. It really should be that connection. I know sometimes, providers don't have the actual time, but tune into how you are feeling about seeing your provider. Are you dreading it? Are you worried about what you're going to say? Are you worried that you're going to have to be educated and come at them and say, “Well, I don't want this, and I don't want that”? What are they making you feel? If they are making you feel those genuine warm fuzzies, lean into that. Jessica: You have a good doctor then. Meagan: If you are feeling tense and anxious, I don't know. It's never too late to switch. You were switching later on. You had a further drive. There were obstacles that you had to hurdle through, but it is worth it. It is so worth it. We have a provider list, everybody. If you are looking for a provider, go to our Instagram. Look at our bio. Click on it. The very first block is supportive providers. If you have a supportive provider that you want to share, I was literally going to put Dr. Swift on this because of your testimonial of her, but she's already on it. Jessica: She was already on it too when I checked. Meagan: Yeah. If you have a supportive provider and you checked this list and they are not on it, guess what? We have made it so you can add it. Definitely add your provider because Women of Strength all over the world, literally all over the world, are looking for this type of support. Jessica: Absolutely. In case you're wondering if my other doctor ever reached out to me, I never heard a single word from her ever again. I canceled all my remaining appointments. Nobody reached out to say, “Hey, we noticed that you're not coming back. What's going on?” Anything could have been wrong when you're that pregnant and you just disappear. It was upsetting that nobody said, “What's going on, Jessica?” I was ready to let them have it because I was wanting them to reach out to say, “Why are you not coming back?” But they never called ever. Meagan: A lot of us stay because we are so worried about how our provider will feel or we have been with our provider this long. They deserve for me to stay. No. Do what's best for you. I love that you pointed that out so much. I just want to thank you again so much for sharing your journey with us and all of these amazing nuggets. I know that they are going to be loved.Jessica: Thank you so much for having me. This just feels amazing to be able to share my story when I've heard so many on here before that were so helpful.Meagan: Yeah, and here you are. I love how full circle this always is, so thank you, again. Jessica: Yeah. Thank you for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Jessica It's All Good channels absolute joy energy, and I try to trick her into being dirty. Wink. Giggly Havoc Ensues! Follow Jessica for more smiles in your day! www.jessicaitsallgood.com https://www.facebook.com/JessicaItsAllGood https://www.instagram.com/jessicaitsallgood https://www.tiktok.com/@jessicaitsallgood INDOOR WIFE T-SHIRTS! GOD IS SASSY! TRUCKER HATS! https://amybrowncomedyshop.square.site/ For more nerdy dirty comedy subscribe and like my YouTube Page. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjWEzSFwmUdD_vUneaHBEOw My shows are here… https://linktr.ee/AmyBrownComedy https://www.facebook.com/amy.g.brown.739/ https://www.instagram.com/amybrowncomedy https://www.twitter.com/amybrowncomedy Amy Brown's silly smart comedy reflects on motherhood, dyslexia, and the dangers of shorty shorts. Accolades include opening for Real Housewife of New York, Sonja Morgan in Sonja In Your City, April Macie, Emmy Blotnick, Liza Treyger, Ali Macofsky & Adrienne Iapalucci. She is a regular at Atlanta's Laughing Skull Lounge and was in the top 101 in The World Series of Comedy 2022/2023 in Las Vegas. She was a finalist in the Funniest Person in Rochester 2022 and has performed in The Rochester Fringe Festival, Oak City Comedy Festival, The North Carolina Comedy Festival, and West End Comedy Fest. She also hosts a weekly podcast and Youtube series called Nerdy For. Find her at www.amybrowncomedy.com. Comedy, comedy podcast, podcast , stand up, funny, stand up comedy, women in comedy, Atlanta Comedy, crowd work, amy brown, nerdy for, amy brown comedy

Today With Jessica Harling: Hi, welcome to Window Treatments for Profit. Firing someone is never easy. But when it's a friend or family member, that situation becomes emotionally charged and even more difficult.  It's never easy. How do you let someone know this is their last chance? How do you set up the expectations that need to be met? How do you decide enough is enough? And how do you have that ultimate hard conversation if you end up having to let them go?  Today, Jessica Harling is here to share her insights on how to navigate these tough situations. Pick It Apart [2:22] Jessica and LuAnn talk about how sticky situations arrive with family in business and the importance of clear expectations. [7:24] Jessica shares her advice on making the hard decision to let a family member go. [12:21] LuAnn and Jessica discuss why you can't just put off the hard conversations. [21:51] Jessica and LuAnn reflect on the emotional side and the grief of fallout with family members. [31:39] LuAnn unpacks why these situations are always going to be hard, even when they're necessary. LuAnn and Jessica Harling's Ah-Ha Moments “I once heard some great advice. When you know you need to fire a family member but you feel like you can't, fire them in your heart. The biggest reason why you're having this push and pull with them is because you do love then and you do have this emotional attachment to them. But if you fire them in your heart, it's a little bit easier for your brain to act on what the heart doesn't want to do.” -Jessica “It really is important to ask yourself if it's a person problem or a process problem. Because if it's a process problem, we may learn that we've got somebody in the wrong seat. That is automatically going to create friction for both of us, and if we're family or friends it's going to manifest in ways that it wouldn't just from employer to employee.” -LuAnn “At the end of the day, if you're letting someone go that is close to you, there is a grieving process. It is not easy. If it was easy, you'd have a cold heart.” -Jessica More About Jessica Harling With unwavering conviction, Jessica Harling can break down complex decisions to simplify an action plan. Her dynamic problem-solving can confront potential obstacles proactively and energize any team, making others feel valued to achieve their ambitious company goals. She is the founder of Behind the Design, a People Operations company that enthusiastically collaborates with leadership to build dream teams! From recruiting to training and process development, their intuition for creating strong emotional connections discovers and nurtures rockstar talent with established streamlined processes that impact the company's bottom line. Connect with Jessica Harling Website Instagram  Facebook  LinkedIn A Big THANK YOU to Today's Podcast Sponsor: This episode is sponsored by Exciting Windows! What's new with LuAnn Nigara LuAnn University - Registration is now OPEN for the Winter 2024 semester! Watch the Docuseries! http://www.luannnigara.com/cob Get The Goodies! For checklists, resources, and extra goodies from A Well-Designed Business sign up for free here. To Get on LuAnn's Email List, text the word designbiz to 444999! Purchase LuAnn's Books Here: Book 1: The Making of A Well – Designed Business: Turn Inspiration into Action Audiobook: The Making of A Well – Designed Business: Turn Inspiration into Action Book 2: A Well-Designed Business – The Power Talk Friday Experts Pre-Order Book 3: A Well-Designed Business – The Power Talk Friday Experts Volume 2 Connect with LuAnn Nigara LuAnn's Website LuAnn's Blog Power Talk Friday Like Us: Facebook | Tweet Us: Twitter | Follow Us: Instagram | Listen Here: Podcast Other Shows Mentioned: #871 Power Talk Friday: Desi Creswell: Out of Overwhelm: Why Time Management Begins With Your Mindset   #475 Power Talk Friday: Desi Creswell: How to Create More Time Other Resources Mentioned:  Exciting Windows! 20th Annual Conference

In this episode, host Victoria Guido talks with Jessica Wallace, the CEO of Flok22, an innovative app designed to enhance real-time social networking. Victoria delves into Jessica's unique journey from her roots as a hairdresser to becoming a tech entrepreneur. They explore how Jessica's personal experiences and challenges, including being a military wife and navigating life post-divorce with three children, fueled her drive to create Flok22. Jessica's desire to connect people in real-time, especially in the post-COVID era, led to the birth of this groundbreaking app. Victoria and Jessica discuss their mutual passion for music, revealing how their hobbies provide a creative outlet from the demanding world of startups. Jessica shares her aspirations to return to playing the drums, a skill inspired by her family's musical background, and her journey in learning the instrument during the pandemic. On technology and entrepreneurship, Jessica dives into the challenges and triumphs of developing and marketing Flok22. She reflects on the importance of networking, particularly in the startup community, and how her app addresses the inefficiencies and awkwardness often encountered at networking events. Victoria and Jessica discuss the evolution of Flok22, emphasizing its focus on enhancing in-person connections and its pivot towards a more event-centric approach, as well as the future of networking, the potential of Flok22, and their shared enthusiasm for making meaningful connections, both professionally and musically. Flok22 (https://flok22.com/) Follow Flok22 on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/flok22?mibextid=ZbWKwL), Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/flok22/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/flok22app/). Follow Jessica Wallace on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-wallace-b9526361/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jessica Wallace, CEO of Flok22, the app that helps you make friends and grow your network in real-time situations. Jessica, thank you for joining us. JESSICA: Thank you for having me. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, just to get us started and warm up here, Jessica, is there any new skill or any skill you've come back to to practice more recently to kind of take your mind off of all the founder stuff that's happening? JESSICA: Yeah. It's been a busy past two months of events and things like that. So, I've kind of been taking a little bit of downtime. I am hoping to start practicing the drums. I play those, and I haven't been doing that in a while. They've been kind of staring me down, so... VICTORIA: So, were you a drummer before? Were you in a band, or? JESSICA: No, never was in a band. Actually, my dad and my uncle were drummers in a band. And as a kid, I would kind of pick up the drumsticks. And I remember my uncle kind of saying like, "Hey, is that Jessica down there?" Because I would sound like I was playing [laughs] something. Yeah, it took me a while to get into it. But during COVID, I picked it up and started practicing. VICTORIA: I love that. So, do you have a whole drum set at home, or do you have one of those, like, electric? JESSICA: I have both. I have the electric one, which I think I'm going to kind of get out and mess with. But I have an actual full drum set. It's like a TAMA light blue little set. VICTORIA: That's so fun. I like playing the drums, but I never made the leap to actually own my own drum set. So, whenever my friends have it, though, I can play, like, maybe one or two beats on [laughs] it. Nothing that impressive, but yeah, it's a lot of fun. JESSICA: Do you play any other instruments? VICTORIA: Yeah, I've always...I played piano when I was younger, and then clarinet and bass guitar through, like, middle school and high school. I did have a band in college. We played two shows, and they were both at my house, which was a lot of fun. JESSICA: [laughs] VICTORIA: I had kind of stopped playing music, and then when COVID happened, it was like, well [laughs], I guess I need to find another hobby again. So, I picked up piano again. And now I've been playing keyboard and trying to sing at the same time, which has been entertaining for everyone in my household, so...[laughs] JESSICA: Very cool. Too bad we didn't, like, catch up during COVID time. We could have started a band. VICTORIA: Yes. Yeah. I'm trying to think of a way to get more disciplined about practicing, actually, because that's...I know people who practice for, like, three hours a day every day. And I'm just like, how do you make yourself sit there for that long [laughs]? JESSICA: That's definitely been the challenge with me. And then, of course, being in a startup, and then, you know, that kind of got put on the backburner, but I hope to pick it up. VICTORIA: Yeah, right? So, we met at San Diego Startup Week, which was a fantastic event here in San Diego; a different location every night and, different speakers, and all of these really interesting people to meet. So, why don't you tell me a little bit about what brought you to San Diego Startup Week? JESSICA: Well, first things first is being a startup here in San Diego, so that made me go. And I knew it's very important, the more I'm realizing, to build your network and connect with people, and especially just within the community, getting yourself out there to be known, talking to other companies, even just showing your support to other startups. It's such an important thing to do. VICTORIA: And your app, Flok22, specifically, solves some problems people might have with going to an event like that and trying to make friends and network with people. So, can you tell me a little bit more about the initial problem you had when you just came up with the idea for the app? JESSICA: So, the initial problem was kind of around COVID time when everything opened back up. And there was this plethora of meetup apps that everybody was on trying to make these connections. And I would start to go out with friends, and as I'm looking around, it was that weird, awkward time where you couldn't talk to anybody you didn't come with. And I would literally see people, including my friends, swiping on matching apps while they were sitting at the table, but nobody was talking to one another. And that's when I realized we needed something that was more venue-based, where it was like, hey, I'm here. I'm out. Let me see who's available to connect. And that's where the concept came about. And then, during a lot of these networking events, I started to realize the same thing. It was people trying to network, and we're still doing the old-school name tags and signing our name on a paper. And it would just be so much more easier to have everybody on that one platform to connect with a little bit more effective and efficiently. VICTORIA: And so, how long has it been since you had this idea and you've been in this journey with Flok22? JESSICA: Well, it's been a little over two years. Right around COVID is when I got the idea. I was a hairdresser for, like, 20-plus years and wasn't working and at home with my three kids. And the idea just was kind of pricking at me. And it took me a while to try and figure out, you know, how can I do this? How can I, with no funds, you know, newly divorced, three kids, how am I going to start an app? And I just kept pushing on trying to connect with the right people and build a product. VICTORIA: I love that. What inspired you? Like, you had this idea for an app. And you're like, you know what? I'm going to make it work. Like, what kept you going? What made you think this is a thing I can put my time and energy into and be successful? JESSICA: You know, there's a lot of factors. I feel like it's just one of those things where you kind of just...you know how you just get that instinct and idea, and you're like, I just can't let it go? And I remember hitting a low point because I had tried to call different development teams. I had tried to do it on my own. And I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. And I was literally walking on a treadmill, and a friend gave me this YouTube thing to listen to, and it was Les Brown. And he was talking about if you were on your deathbed, you know, these ideas and these dreams, they're just staring you with angry eyes because they came to you for life. And it, like, hit me, like, very intensely to where I was like, I have to do this. I can't just look back in my life and be like, I had this idea. I know somebody's going to do it because everybody would be like, "This is a great idea." So, it's just a matter of you just got to keep going. VICTORIA: Well, I'm glad that you're working on this because I can totally relate to that experience of, you know, for me, I came from Washington, D.C., and moved to San Diego. When I was in D.C., I had spent years in the meetup community and organizing meetups. And so, it got to the point where anytime I went to a meetup, I would know at least one person there. And now coming to San Diego, like, starting it all over again, was very daunting. And, like, walking into...what was it? San Diego tech event where there's, like, 100 people in this beautiful Balboa Park location and just being so nervous [laughs]. I'm like, who do I talk to? Like, how do I get started? And you immediately think I should just leave and go home [laughs]. But let me get a glass of Chardonnay and go over to the craft makers table and make some art and then I'll, like, feel a little bit better. So yeah, I'm curious, like, so you had this great idea. Like, you knew you wanted to put your effort into it. As you started going through the process of figuring out how to get started or how to find that market fit, was there anything that surprised you in your early stages that made you pivot into a new direction? JESSICA: Well, I would say just, like, hearing your story, so many of us have been in that boat. I used to be a military wife, so I was always picking up and moving. And the older we get, it's hard to build and start up your network again. And I see a lot of people posting on Facebook or, you know, Instagram, and they're, like, putting their profile out there trying to make friends. So, there's definitely a need for it. Originally, I wanted it more for the social aspect, which was coffee shops, bars, restaurants, being able to just check in and see who's there that is open to connect. One thing we did kind of start to realize is a lot of people, even though they want to make those connections, people are still nervous to claim that they're trying to, like, make a friend. So, the biggest thing that we learned in the product-market fit was people were more inclined to use it for networking. They felt a little bit more secure and safer that way. So, I would say that would be a thing that we kind of picked up on. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. Because when I'm going to networking, like, of course, I would love to find leads for people who need consulting work from thoughtbot or software development or platform engineering. But if you go in with that intention, it's disingenuous, and it's not very effective. Whereas if you go into a networking event with the intention to make friends and just to learn about people and to find common interest, it's, like, indirectly aiming at your target is the best way to actually get there [laughs]. So, it makes sense. And so, you pivoted into more events and networking. Has there been anything that you've found about that experience or that group of people that's surprised you, or? JESSICA: I do feel like the social side will pick up on it. I just think it's going to take a little bit more time. But with the networking, I wasn't really doing any of that until I got into this startup. So, I didn't even see the need for it until I got in there. And then here I am, you know, going to a table, trying to find my name tag, and everything's still very much old school when it comes to that. And so, that was what surprised me is just was, like, this would be perfect. Everybody's trying to exchange their LinkedIns. Everybody is trying to find the right person. And sometimes you get stuck in a conversation with somebody for 20 minutes, and it's some sales guy from who knows where, and you're just like, uh, I'm not really looking for that. You know what I mean? Great to connect, but got to go. So, it's so much better to just find the right people that you're looking for and network more efficiently. VICTORIA: Yeah, I don't know if this is that exact experience, but what I've kind of heard from other founders is sometimes you go to a networking event, and maybe you're looking for, like, mentors or people to help you or your own [inaudible 10:09]. And then there's more people trying to sell things to you [laughs] than there are, like, those actual people you're looking for who would help you. So, that's really interesting. So, now you've started to kind of really get involved in the networking. And I'm curious: how many events have you gone to so far this year? Do you have a rough estimate? JESSICA: I'm, like, trying to think. It's, like, such a blur because I really have been going to so many. And also, I've been a part of the SDAC E-track, which is the Angel Conference, San Diego Angel Conference that's coming up. So, we're hoping to get accepted in that. I'm going to say, at least this month, probably 12, I would suspect. VICTORIA: Wait, 12 this month? JESSICA: I think so, yeah. And some of them have been little ones. Like, I've done some happy hour events. There's these really cool, like, social happy hour events I've been trying to kind of partner up with. So, definitely some smaller ones, and then some bigger ones, and then including my E-track. So, that's kind of the calculation I have. VICTORIA: Wow, I mean, there's only been 15 days so far this month, so 13 events that's quite a lot [laughs]. I hope you do get some time to rest and play the drums later this month. But that's really exciting. So, I'm curious: as a founder, obviously, you have an event space networking app. But have you found other benefits from growing your network as an early-stage founder? JESSICA: Definitely. The biggest impact is connecting with these people. And whether you read that book, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad," they say, you know, "Poor people look for work, and rich people build networks." And it's true because I'm noticing that for myself. You get around these people, and most of the time, they really do want to help, or you just need to have the ask, you know, ask what you're looking for. And they're more than willing to set you up with other people to get partnerships. I ended up meeting somebody at the MIC Conference, which was in Vegas last month. And they connected me with somebody who now we are going to be partnering with them to have our app be used at their conference. So, it's as simple as that, just once you're in front of them and you get that more personal touch, and then they kind of refer you to other people. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And how does your app compare to the existing apps that are out there for networking at events or for managing attendees at events? JESSICA: Well, currently, there's not anything that's doing it in real-time. There is some conference events they have, like Cvent, Whova app. Personally, to me, it was just there's so much going on. You have the event, you know, vendors. You have the schedule. You have so much going on. And for us, our main thing is just connecting you to the right person. So, it's a more simplistic version of just being able to simply check in, see the profiles of the people that are there, see what it is that you're looking for, and know that you want to connect with them. Also, the other feature that we have is allowing you to see anybody that you may have missed when you leave. So, you can kind of easily filter through those profiles and decide who to reach out to. I mean, similar to maybe, like, a meetup, but it's more just on demand. There quite hasn't been anything that's doing it right instantaneously. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I can agree. I've used some of those apps before. And what I've noticed there's just not a ton of activity or user activity on the day of. And I'm curious to see...I really want to try out Flok, too. I know I'm like [laughs], I haven't had a chance to actually get in there yet, but it is on my to-do list. So, I'm curious, you know, as someone who didn't have a background in technology or building applications, like, how did you go about getting up to speed and finding the people you needed to help you actually build the app? JESSICA: Yeah, I mean, being a hairstylist, I was not tech at all. So, it's pretty interesting that here I am, you know, in this app development world. The main thing was just getting out there. I knew I had already been on so many apps just, whether it was some of the dating apps, meetup apps, so I knew how they operated and what I was looking for as a customer that I wanted to fix. Most of the time, it was heavily with all these pictures, and prompts, and things like that, and I would get bored of setting it up. It would take me, like, you know, 30-plus minutes. Not to mention, I call it, like, adding people to your cart. It's just very impersonal. You got so many people just piling people to their cart. You might talk to them for a little bit, then stop. And I think people are just kind of getting over it. It's time-consuming. It's a lot of time and planning, and sometimes you plan something and then...even with the girls meeting a friend, it's like they plan something for Thursday, and somebody cancels, and then you're SOL, you know? VICTORIA: Oh yeah. So, you had experience with using different apps for, like, networking or meeting people and making friends, and you saw that there was this gap. And then, how did you go to actually building the app? And were there any lessons that you learned in that process? JESSICA: That was my experience and why I was doing that. The main thing I did after that was I started hitting up events to find and recruit. That was how I started finding...I met my co-founder through a mutual friend. She's been wonderful. She's, like, complete opposite of me. She's, like, the business-organized one. Like, hey, we need an LLC. We need this. We need that. I'm more just the idea and brains and kind of behind the scenes. Then I started going to some tech events, met our UI UX designer, Laura, who's been fantastic. So, that would be my advice to people. If you're looking to build and you're trying to find the right people, of course, LinkedIn could be a good spot. Y Combinator could be a good spot. For me, I think going out there and actually making the personal connections and meeting the people and ask them and find what you're looking for. VICTORIA: And you could now even use Flok22 to find your early founder team [laughs]. JESSICA: Exactly. See? VICTORIA: That's awesome. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: So, you went out, and you just met people, and you had this compelling vision of what you wanted to build and were able to recruit them onto your team. Was there anything...you know, you've been at this for two years now. Through the development process, was there anything you learned about what to do or what not to do in how you engage with your designers and developers? JESSICA: You know, it's like, we dove out there, like, headfirst. And then there was a period of time where we needed to pause and re-calibrate, and that was due to the fact that you have to be very diligent in looking for development if you're outsourcing. If you know a CTO or you have somebody in-house that, you know, you're working with, you may not have the problems that we ran into. But with outsourcing, there's still very much a gray area. And we ended up getting a product that was not really functional and had a lot of issues, which caused a huge setback for us. It was a great, you know, lesson learned if that. But you have to be really particular on who you're finding. I would suggest heavily on finding somebody that is a referral from somebody that you know, as a matter of fact, that they use. Because nowadays, there's times that they can almost, like, fake what they have. I mean, they might have references. They'll put stuff up on their website showcasing products that they did, and those aren't even products that they did. So, we ran into a huge deal with that. But it made us take a step back. We re-honed in on our user persona, had our UI UX designer redesign everything, and came back out here again. VICTORIA: Yes, because people will let you pay them to build anything [laughs]. JESSICA: Oh yeah. VICTORIA: But it may not be exactly what you wanted. And what you said, going with someone who is a referral, going with someone who, I think, clearly demonstrates that they need to understand the underlying issue, as opposed to just being willing to take whatever requirements you have and build it. That's a big differentiator for companies. And it can be frustrating because I think, you know, for thoughtbot, sometimes people come to us, and they're like, "We already have the designs. We already know what we want. You just build it for us." And we [inaudible 19:21], like, coach them around that. Like, are you sure? Like, let's look at your market validation, and let's look at your product fit. And, you know, let's go back and make sure that we're all aligned and that you're actually getting value out of something, and showing you the results on a regular basis, as opposed to it'll be done in three months, and you just wait until then. Sometimes, that can be $150,000 later, and, at the end, you're not actually getting a product that you really wanted. JESSICA: Exactly. And like I said, there's still a big, gray area in that where, you know, you can be given a product, and it's not even barely working, or it looks like garbage. And you're kind of stuck because trying to go after these people to get your money back it's most likely not going to happen. And then you just lost out on all that money you put into that product. So, it can be very frustrating for people. I hope to eventually kind of shed light on that and maybe help people along the way, so they don't fall trap to those type of kind of scammers that are out there for development. And I'm sure you, being CTO, you've seen a lot of that [chuckles]. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's something we work really hard to kind of coach clients around and figure out to make sure because we don't want to end in that situation where our founder feels like we built something for them that doesn't work or doesn't look great, or what they're happy with [chuckles]. So yeah, I think it's very common. It happens to a lot of people. But I'm happy that you didn't get discouraged and you said, you know what? We can go for round two. Let's take what we learned and put it into the next version of the app. And one of my favorite phrases from doing this podcast that I've heard is, "If the first product you build if you're proud of it, you didn't do it fast enough" [laughs]. So, like, usually, the first thing you build is not pretty, but you had to push through and build something. And that's the first application you've ever built. So, how did you feel about the second time going around? What did you do differently to be happier with and prouder of the product version that you put out there? JESSICA: Yeah, I like that phrase, too, and sometimes I'm the same. It's kind of like, you know, fail fast and get out there. But the second build was definitely so much more smoother and better. But, actually, we are in transition to a newer, bigger development team because there's still some things that we're just not completely set on. And I do think that moving along to this next development team, there's a more better fit. And then, we also received a grant from AWS to build a better back-end infrastructure, so when we do scale up, and there is more people on there, that it can withhold that capacity. So, I'm definitely happy with it right now. And I know that getting it out there—and you know this, too—is just getting it out there with all the users, you know, there may be some different feedback coming in and out. We plan on, you know, making any changes necessary if need be, and just kind of always making it a little better each time. VICTORIA: Is that the AWS Activate program? JESSICA: It's not the Activate, but it's just we're actually working with a company, and it was AWS. They had filled everything out for us, you know, they want to help startups getting out into the app world because, again, if we're making money, they're making money, too, with it being on their servers. So, it's kind of a win-win. And we can store all of that data and be able to scale up properly. VICTORIA: Absolutely, yeah. And so, for those who don't know, the AWS Activate program, you can apply for up to $100,000 in free credits, and other cloud providers have similar programs where you can get free money [chuckles]. But, no, that's really cool that you're a part of that. So, what challenges do you see on the horizon for Flok22? JESSICA: Of course, I hope there's going to be none, but we know in this entrepreneurial world, it's always there. I think, you know, the hard part are always going to be kind of those situations where maybe people aren't using the app properly or things of that sort happening. Other app companies have dealt with that. It's like, you could be out somewhere, and a situation happens. So, that's kind of the only thing that I would be worried about is just ensuring the safety of all of our users, making sure that everybody is understanding. And I guess when that time comes and if there are things that, you know, come at you, it's just a matter of handling it. So, I hope it's not anything too heavy, but I guess we'll see. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having that concern early on. Because I do feel like sometimes people create apps for networking and collaboration without thinking about the safety of their users. And it's more common from founders who have never been in a situation where they're unsafe [laughs]. So, like, maybe from your unique perspective, you, like, know that that is an issue that you might need to solve or that will come up, and having a plan for it makes sense. JESSICA: We definitely have a plan for it. I mean, a lot of people don't realize with these apps that are out there, there's actually been a pretty high increase in, like, sex trafficking and different things. And most people don't know that because they're not the ones going in there and doing the market research. So, our main thing is getting people out there to meet in public places, which is much safer. You're not, you know, getting lured and unsure if that's even the person who that they say they are, or you're going to someone's house or on a hike. It just makes it for a much safer environment. And then we're working on some other added features where, you know, you can kind of validate the people just to ensure that. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going and keeps you excited about working on this? JESSICA: It's my passion. It's kind of like now; this has been my baby for a couple of years. So, of course, my family is always number one. I have three kids, a rat, two dogs, and a lizard. I adore my family, but I just have a passion for this. And I know that it's just a matter of time before this becomes a thing. And so, I just push myself on the daily trying to figure out the solutions and just keep moving forward with it. VICTORIA: And what does success look like in six months, or even beyond that, in five years? JESSICA: I think, for us, it will just be getting that heavy adoption of users, getting known out here in San Diego or in other parts. We plan on trying to hit more of the major cities where you got a lot of newcomers coming in and traveling, whether that's Chicago, New York, Miami, Vegas. As we get that adoption, just growing as a company and see where it goes from there. VICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, I look forward to when I can go to a conference and just identify who are all the rock climbers in the room, and I can go bug and talk about [laughs], like, climbing with. I love that. JESSICA: And, two, going to these conferences, also, not only your...you get to connect with the people that are there, but it's the people in the surrounding city, too. It's like a lot of people leave the conference, and they want to go to a bar or a coffee shop. And the fact that you have the option or opportunity to connect with the people who are there as well is a win-win. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And do you have any questions for me about thoughtbot, or the podcast, or anything like that? JESSICA: For me, you being, like, a CTO, I know you've maybe...have you seen apps like this become successful? I would love your take on kind of getting out there in the market for something like this because we are at that stage where we're trying to hit the market pretty heavily. We're hitting college campuses, you know, bigger conferences, trying to get that adoption in small clusters for it to be, you know, fun and usable for users. But I would love your take on that. VICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, I'm a managing director. Our CTO is Joe Ferris, who's currently my acting dev director for my team. But from my experience, you know, there might be a lot of competing apps who try to aim for similar things. But if you're very closely understanding your users and their needs and focusing on solving their problems, then you will find your niche, and you'll be able to be successful and grow that from there. So, if you have a strong vision for what the problem is and you're willing to actually listen to your users and pivot based off of that, that will set you up to be successful. Yeah, and I've talked about this with other friends who are really into networking and meeting up with people. And there continues to be this gap of, like, how people communicate and how we actually connect. So, I think you're on the right track [chuckles], and you're doing a lot of great things. And I think the only other advice I would say is what you've already kind of pointed out is to make sure you're not burning out early on and that you're taking that time and space to be with your family and to do your hobbies, and having a strong rest ethic as you do a work ethic and making sure you're still a whole person. And you'll make better decisions if you're giving your brain a little bit of downtime. JESSICA: Definitely. I so agree with you. That's very important to have that balance. And we just hope that we can fill that gap when it comes to the networking. So, I hope that everyone can give it a try and see what they think. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? JESSICA: I mean, honestly, this is not so much about me. I'm really passionate about this app and networking and connecting people together and getting it, so it's just more easy for everybody to connect out in person without wasting that time and energy. Just be out doing you and meet the right people. That's what Flok22 is all about. VICTORIA: I love that. And we'll have to get together and play some music. I'll tell you the two songs I have memorized on piano right now are Kiss from a Rose by Seal and Someone Like You by Adele, so...[laughs] JESSICA: Oooh. VICTORIA: But we do have a bit of a girls' band going in San Diego, so we'll connect on that, too [laughs]. JESSICA: Yeah, we'll have to link up. Add some drums to your... VICTORIA: We don't have a drummer, so that's perfect, yeah [laughs]. JESSICA: See? It's networking at its best [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yes, yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate hearing your story. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Jessica Merker is a Staff Attorney and Internship Coordinator at the Second District Court of Appeal, State of Florida. She owns and operates Merk The Moment LLC, a custom typewriter poetry collective that provides on-demand poems at events and weddings and commissioned poems to honor the moments that matter most. After a short conversation, you will receive a poem typed on handmade paper using a vintage typewriter. Jessica: It's been a joy to foster this creative side of myself, and I will always be grateful for Journey to Esquire for emphasizing wellness and finding fulfillment in every aspect of my life. Fun Fact- her first time reading one of her poems to an audience was during her Scholar Presentation! Social Media Website: www.journeytoesquire.com Email: info@journeytoesquire.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dive... Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JourneytoEsq/ YT: https://youtube.com/@journeytoesquire Twitter: @JourneytoEsq                 https://mobile.twitter.com/journeytoesq Instagram: @JourneytoEsq  https://www.instagram.com/journeytoesq/ www.journeytoesquire.com info@journeytoesquire.com @JourneytoEsquire --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/journey-to-esquire/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/journey-to-esquire/support

GDP Script/ Top Stories for Dec 5th Publish Date:  Dec 4th HENSSLER 15 From the Henssler Financial Studio Welcome to the Gwinnett Daily Post Podcast. Today is Tuesday, December5th, and Happy heavenly Birthday to Walt Disney. *** 12.05.23 - BIRTHDAY - WALT DISNEY*** I'm Bruce Jenkins and here are your top stories presented by Kia Mall of Georgia. Republicans propose splitting Gwinnett between four congressional districts. Primerica Employees Collect More Than 36,000 Food Items for The Salvation Army Frosty Fun series set to entertain during the holidays in Duluth. All of this and more is coming up on the Gwinnett Daily Post podcast, and if you are looking for community news, we encourage you to listen daily and subscribe! Break 1: MOG STORY 1: Republicans propose splitting Gwinnett between four congressional districts Republicans in the Georgia General Assembly plan to split Gwinnett County among four congressional districts to comply with a federal court ruling. The proposal, unveiled by the state Senate redistricting committee, avoids creating a single district with a majority of Gwinnett County and moves 7th Congressional District Rep. Lucy McBath, a Democrat, out of her Gwinnett-based district. This follows the 2021 redrawing of McBath's previous district to be heavily Republican. The current plan aims to meet the court's order for a new majority Black congressional district in west Atlanta without sacrificing any GOP-held seats. Speaker of the House Jon Burns endorsed the proposal. STORY 2: Primerica Employees Collect More Than 36,000 Food Items For The Salvation Army Primerica's internal group, PULSO, exceeded its goal for the Salvation Army Can-A-Thon food drive by collecting 4,459 canned and dry food items, surpassing last year's total. The annual food drive serves as a precursor to the Salvation Army's Can-A-Thon events in metro Atlanta. Primerica, the largest contributor to the Can-A-Thon effort in the area, played a significant role in supporting the Salvation Army's pantries, contributing over 200,000 canned and dry food items in the last two years. This year's donations, though slightly below previous figures, will still make a substantial impact on the community. STORY 3: Frosty Fun series set to entertain during the holidays in Duluth Duluth is hosting its popular Frosty Fun series with various events, activities, and live music throughout the winter. The Winter Games on Dec. 10 will include axe throwing and frosty competitions. Snow Mazing, an inflatable frosty maze, will be available on Dec. 19 and 20. Toboggan Tunnell, a thrilling mix of speed and adrenaline, can be enjoyed on Dec. 21-23. Other activities include the Snow Playground on Dec. 27, Giant Snow Slide on Dec. 28, and Inflatable Wonderland on Dec. 29-30. On New Year's Eve, a frosty celebration with Jessica It's All Good will feature crafts, photo ops, and a noon drop. The series concludes with Jack Frost's magic tricks and 2024-themed ice sculptures on Jan. 2. Live music and various activities are part of each event. We have opportunities for sponsors to get great engagement on these shows. Call 770.874.3200 for more info. We'll be right back. Break 2: Peggy Slappy – TOM WAGES – DTL STORY 4: Study challenges widely held beliefs about Vitamin D and bone health A major clinical trial conducted by researchers from Queen Mary University of London and the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health found that vitamin D supplements do not improve bone strength or prevent fractures in children. The trial involved Mongolian children aged six to 13, a population with a high bone fracture burden and prevalent vitamin D deficiency. Although the supplements effectively raised vitamin D levels from deficiency to normal, they had no impact on fracture risk or bone strength. This finding challenges widely held perceptions about the effects of vitamin D on bone health. The study is likely to prompt a reconsideration of the impacts of vitamin D supplements. STORY 5: Gwinnett Chamber Honors 2023 Small Business Award Winners The Gwinnett Chamber recently held its annual Small Business Awards, recognizing exceptional business practices and entrepreneurial excellence. Ten winners were selected from 100 finalists across various categories. The Community Contributor Award went to SPARC (Single Parents Alliance & Resource Center), while Eclipse Gaming Systems received the Culture Creator Award. The Emerging Entrepreneur Award was presented to Charbel Aoun of Georgia First Generation Foundation, and the Launch Award went to Sugarloaf Wellness Center. Other winners included Danielle Hudson-Laughlin (SAGE Business Counsel), Bring The Crew, Team Ryan Automotive, NEMA, Inc., Gwinnett Entrepreneur Center, and Bin Liu of SimpleFloors. We'll be back in a moment. Break 3:  ESOG - INGLES 10 – GLOW LIGHT SHOW STORY 6: Peachtree Corners Mayor Mike Mason Highlights New City Marshals In State Of The City Address Peachtree Corners Mayor Mike Mason addressed concerns about crime in parts of the city, particularly along major corridors, in his State of the City address. While overall safety remains better than surrounding areas, a spike in crime, especially motor vehicle thefts in the Holcomb Bridge Road and Jimmy Carter Boulevard corridor, prompted action. The city introduced its own City Marshal department, supplementing efforts by Gwinnett County Police. The Marshal Service, distinct from the police, focuses on community safety. In addition to marshals, the city has expanded its street camera program with over 50 license plate reader cameras and a camera registration system. STORY 7: In face of threats, election workers vow: ‘You are not disrupting the democratic process' Election workers nationwide are facing an increase in threats and harassment since the 2020 presidential election. Lies about "rigged" elections have fueled conspiracy theories, leading to threats against election workers. As a response, some states have enacted new protections and increased criminal penalties for those threatening or interfering with election workers. However, this has not prevented an exodus of election officials from their positions, leaving a gap in institutional knowledge and potentially increasing the likelihood of errors. Election offices are investing in security measures, including fortifying buildings and providing training, to ensure the safety of workers. We'll have final thoughts after this. Break 4: Henssler 60 Signoff – Thanks again for hanging out with us on today's Gwinnett Daily Post podcast. If you enjoy these shows, we encourage you to check out our other offerings, like the Cherokee Tribune Ledger Podcast, the Marietta Daily Journal, the Community Podcast for Rockdale Newton and Morgan Counties, or the Paulding County News Podcast. Read more about all our stories, and get other great content at Gwinnettdailypost.com. Did you know over 50% of Americans listen to podcasts weekly? Giving you important news about our community and telling great stories are what we do. Make sure you join us for our next episode and be sure to share this podcast on social media with your friends and family. 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Join us around the table for a discussion about how to intentionally cultivate a culture of love and respect! Seasoned teachers and school leaders Jessica Moulding, Esther Burnham, and Randy Dueck share tips, inspiration, and personal stories from their decades of experience in schools. “Cultivating a Culture of Love and Respect in the Classroom” by Jessica Moulding “Classroom culture forms naturally. The students are going to form it. It's all of the expectations and rules - both spoken and unspoken, just as any other culture.” - Jessica  “As teachers and school leaders, we have the ability to help form that culture.” - Jessica “Most students spend a large majority of their time in our classrooms, and so [it's important to make] that feel like their second home. And then also, when things go wrong, how do we respond?” - Jessica “We're communicating to them directly, ‘You belong here. I notice you. I will see you, I will hear you, I've got you. I think every student in the classroom needs that culture with that teacher.” - Randy “It is a work of the Holy Spirit. We have a role, but it's His job.” - Esther “In the classroom, working with a whole student means trying to give them a space that is safe enough for them to be human.” - Jessica “It's that ‘doing life together' and having a shared experience and enjoying little quirks.” - Esther “Those kids hadn't changed, but I had, and my love for them had shifted.” - Jessica “There's just so much power in submission to the Holy Spirit - whether that's in laughter or prayer or intentional conversations - that when we just keep giving those mundane, normal moments back to Him, He is faithful and just to do incredible transformation through them.” - Jessica What's changing our lives: Heather: Changes in small group Randy: First snowfall of the season Esther: Reading a book about the Shantung Revival Jessica: Reflecting on God's faithfulness and changing mindset about the future Weekly Spotlight: Timothy Academy We'd love to hear from you! podcast@teachbeyond.org Podcast Website: https://teachbeyond.org/podcast Learn about TeachBeyond: https://teachbeyond.org/ 

The chances of having vasa previa in a spontaneous pregnancy is about 1 in 2500. Our friend, Jessica, shares her experience with vasa previa during her first pregnancy which led to a scheduled Cesarean. While Jessica's Cesarean experience was difficult and traumatic, she knows it is what her intuition was telling her to do. Meagan gives important advice about listening to that intuition with every pregnancy.When the anatomy scan results showed that Jessica's second pregnancy was completely normal, she went all in to achieve the HBAC she deeply desired. Jessica didn't expect her birth to be so painfully intense and wildly fast as it was, but now she says that she “would love to do it again!” Additional LinksThe Lactation NetworkHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello you guys. This is Meagan and today I am recording in a very different spot. Normally, I am in my office at my home, but today, I am recording from my car. We have our friend, Jessica, and she is from California. She is going to be sharing her HBAC story with you guys today. If you don't know what HBAC is, if you're new to all of the terms, it's a home birth after a Cesarean. She has a unique situation with her first C-section so I am excited to talk a little bit about that and have her share more information and then with her home birth, it was precipitous. Jessica, was it a planned home birth? Remind me, or was it so precipitous that it ended up being a home birth? Jessica: It was definitely planned. Meagan: Definitely planned. Review of the Week Meagan: She will be sharing that story but of course, we have a Review of the Week. This review is by Ashley and it's actually on our doula course. So birth workers, if you're listening, if you didn't know, we have a birth worker course to become certified in VBAC. It says, “TOLAC/VBAC should be treated just like any other birthing person, but there is a certain preparation and information that needs to be offered to them. Your course covered that. The value is held in your careful recognition of how best to support our client who is doing a TOLAC. I cannot praise you two enough for the fear-release activity. Honestly, it is something I can apply to even myself before and after birth and even in life in general. Thank you for that. It has already helped me with three of my VBAC clients.” That is so awesome. That is one of the biggest things we do in our course. We do a fear release. If you didn't know, listeners, a fear release is so impactful really processing your past births and working through any trauma. Even if you don't recognize it as trauma, it may resonate as trauma so working through those fear-release activities is super amazing. Jessica's Stories Meagan: Cute Jessica, thanks for joining me from my car today. I kind of had a crazy day where my husband got thrown into coaching another team and we had soccer tryouts. As we are recording right now, it's actually May so we are in the thick of soccer tryouts and all of the chaos of the last week of school. I ended up being at the soccer field so that's why I am coming from my car. So yeah, Jessica, I'd love to turn the time over to you to share your beautiful story. Jessica: Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited. I'll just get to it. Basically, I got pregnant with my first son and he was due in July of 2020, well actually, the beginning of August. He was a COVID baby. My husband didn't get to go to any appointments with me. But that was supposed to be at a birth center. I watched The Business of Being Born. I got down that rabbit hole. We decided we wanted to be at a birth center. Everything was fine, then I had my anatomy scan and they found vasa previa. I had never heard of it. I never really even considered something being– you know, you worry about something being wrong with your baby. You never think about you having something wrong. So we were very shocked and all I remember was the sonographer saying, “It's detrimental to your baby.” That was very devastating because I had no idea what that meant. I had to wait to get a referral to see a specialist. It was, I think, 4-6 weeks away. In that timeframe, I had to basically just sit and wait and not know what was going to happen. I joined a Facebook group, did research in the meantime, and I realized, “Holy crap. This is a big deal.” I went to the specialist and they said, “Yeah. You have vasa previa but it could still move.” I left with no answers. It didn't feel any better hearing that. So basically vasa previa is you know, you have your placenta and your umbilical cord. It was explained to me that typically with a placenta and an umbilical cord, the umbilical cord is like a tree trunk. But when you have vasa previa, it's like tree roots. So basically it's an unprotected umbilical cord and vessels that could potentially be ruptured with a vaginal birth. Meagan: Yeah. They're very exposed. Jessica: Yes. Very exposed. I did also learn that I had a velamentous cord insertion which goes hand-in-hand I think. So yeah. Basically, the moral of the story was that it was a big deal on how I was going to birth this baby even more so because his life was at risk. I eventually saw three doctors at the same practice just for follow-ups. They eventually cleared me for vaginal birth. You think that you would be super excited about that, but everything that I was reading was saying that it has to move a big amount for it to be safe. The vessels could still rupture and all of that stuff. So then I got two second opinions at different practices. They also cleared me. I don't know. Everything that I was reading, I was reading different stories on this Facebook group. I just felt in my gut that I needed to still have a C-section. That is not what I wanted. I still stayed with the specialist because I was still considered a high-risk pregnancy. She said that I could deliver vaginally, but I told her, “I feel like I would feel safer doing a C-section.” She said, “Okay, but we are going to wait until 39 weeks.” With vasa previa, you deliver much earlier than that just because they don't want your body to go into labor at all. Basically, that whole pregnancy was full of anxiety and fear. I was worried every single time I went to the bathroom. I was worried there was going to be all of this blood. I felt invalidated and like I was silly for still wanting a C-section by this doctor. Yeah. It was really hard and then my husband couldn't even be at the appointments to hear what was being said. So yeah, it was really hard. Meagan: Yeah. That is a really hard thing to hear. Especially when you are not even planning on giving birth in a hospital. It's like, “So wait, wait, wait. I have to completely shift all gears.” But what I love was that your intuition was like, “I need a C-section. This is what I feel is best for me and my baby.” You followed that. That is so important. One of the messages here at The VBAC Link is that we strive to say that we don't shame anyone for having a C-section. We know that they are happening a lot, but especially when your gut is saying, “This is what I should do,” we have to follow that. Women of Strength, we have to follow that. Jessica: Yep. Yep. So ultimately, yeah. I followed my gut and I'm really glad that I did. The nurse who was by my side in the C-section said that she had never seen a placenta like mine. The doctor, of course, said that it looked normal, but every person that I've shown, and some of them are birth workers, are just like, “Wow, yeah. I've never seen a placenta like that.” I had a ton of exposed, very fragile-looking vessels. I don't know where they were in my belly, but still, they were very fragile-looking. I feel like I made the right decision. My doctor said that it was normal, but I don't think that it was. Meagan: Was your baby IUGR at all with the velamentous cord on top of it? Jessica: No. Meagan: Okay, sounds good. Let me just– there are lots of abbreviations in this episode. IUGR is intrauterine growth restriction and that can be a baby that is being restricted of growth. Sometimes with a velamentous cord, a baby can be on the smaller side or have growth restrictions so it's awesome that your baby didn't. Jessica: Yeah, he was 7 pounds, 3 ounces at 39 weeks. Yeah. I mean, it was a fine C-section. Nothing eventful happened, but it was still traumatic being strapped. I wasn't even strapped down. My arms weren't, but still, the experience was. I didn't get to hold my baby for an hour and when I did, I was super shaky. I was nervous to hold him.I looked up at the monitors and I feel like my blood pressure was super low at one point. I thought I was dying. It did not feel great. It was traumatic for us. I know that trauma looks different for everybody, so for us, the whole experience was traumatic. My doctor did say, “You know, I'm giving you this incision so that if you do have another baby, you can have a VBAC.” It was always in my head that when we did have another baby, it would be a VBAC. Jessica: So yeah. Fast forward to April 2022, my husband and I were trying and I got pregnant. It was kind of a surprise but kind of not. I toyed with the idea of possibly giving birth in a hospital, but it was for a very short while like maybe five minutes, then I was like, “No. I think I need to do a home birth this time.” Just because of our experience at the hospital, I don't know. I didn't want to have to fight to have a vaginal birth. I didn't want to be held to the hospital policies and whatnot. I follow a lot of birthworkers and see physiological birth and whatnot so we just decided to have a home birth. We found our midwife and she was a midwife. She's been a midwife for 46 years so had lots of experience. She's had lots of VBAC babies and it was just really exciting. It felt right to book her as our midwife. I had her, I think, from 9 weeks on and nothing exciting happened in my pregnancy. I was nervous about the anatomy scan, but they did a very thorough check and I could have cried hearing the news. I was just very confident knowing that the placenta was good, the umbilical cord looked good, and all of that. We went on to have an uneventful pregnancy. I would say from 37 weeks on, I would have cramping and whatnot. I always had Braxton Hicks from 15 weeks on, but around 37 weeks, it changed to that more period-like cramping. I tried not to read into it. I was just like, “This is my body preparing.” There were a couple of times where I was like, “Oh my gosh. Is this happening?” I was listening to lots of podcasts and birth stories and stuff to just kind of prepare myself for every scenario. I think I went to my midwife at an appointment the day before I turned 40 weeks. I was toying with the idea of getting checked or not because I didn't want to be disappointed or get my hopes up. Ultimately, we– I keep saying we. My husband was a big part of this. I decided to get checked and I think I was a 2 and 70% effaced or something. I was in the right direction but I also knew, “Okay, that doesn't really mean anything. It could be a week.” But they did want to schedule me for a membrane sweep the following week just in case because you can't give birth at home past 42 weeks. I really did not want to do that, but I also really wanted to have the baby at home. I was just really anxious. Now I felt like I was on a timeline. My due date came and went. I was disappointed. I knew that it's totally normal for your baby to not come at or before 40 weeks, but you have that hope that maybe they will. Your body is starting to have all of these symptoms so you're hoping that this is it. My midwife had said, “Make plans because babies like to come when you have plans. They don't like it when you're waiting around for them.” Meagan: I love that. Jessica: Yeah. I tried to get out of the house and then one day, I was like, “Okay, do you know what? We have to go do something.” I planned for me and my toddler to go to the aquarium. We had to buy tickets. The day after my due date, I lost some of my mucus plug so I was very excited about that. Two days after my due date, I listened to Bridget Teyler. She has an induction meditation on YouTube. I just did it because when my husband was putting my toddler to bed, that was my time to get in the zone, drink my red raspberry tea, and prepare for birth. I just did it because it was something to do. I didn't expect it to work. I thought, “You know, if nothing else, I'm bonding with my baby.” It was really great. The next day, I woke up and I was pregnant still. My mucus plug still kept coming out. It was pink and I was like, “Oh, is this my bloody show?” but my midwives were like, “No, that's still your mucus plug.” I was kind of disappointed about that. I talked to my husband about all of the anxiety and how people were wondering where the baby was and all of that stuff. We had a steak dinner that night. That was the meal that I envisioned that I would have before I went into labor. That was 40 weeks and 3 days. The next day, at 40 weeks and 4 days, I woke up still pregnant with no signs. I was emotional about it but that was the day I was supposed to take my son to the aquarium. We get ready and we're driving. On the way there, I'm starting to get cramps every four to every 30 minutes. They were 30 seconds long. I was like, “Oh my gosh. What the heck?” We get to the aquarium and my son wants me to hold him. Meanwhile, I'm having these contractions. I'm just like, “Oh my gosh. I wasn't timing them because obviously, I had my hands full.” We ate at the aquarium and I remember feeling dizzy and nauseous at one point. But then we went home and my toddler fell asleep in the car which is pretty rare. That means it's going to be a short nap, so I was like, “Oh if he takes a short nap, he's going to go to bed earlier. Maybe this is meant to be. Maybe if I go into labor tonight, this is meant to be.” I had always envisioned that I would give birth at home while my toddler was sleeping just because he's a very sensitive little guy. I figured that my being in labor would scare him. So I was just like, “Oh my gosh. He's going to go to bed earlier than normal.” I got home and my husband got home from work. I was like, “I'm going to go rest and lay down to try and take a nap in case.” I couldn't sleep, but I did lay in bed for an hour and a half. I went downstairs. I tried to make dinner and I kept having to stop and lean on the counter. My husband was like, “Do I need to turn the lights down? You're going inward.” I'm like, “No, I'm not.” I was in total denial. He eventually took over because I was just like, “Yeah, I'm trying to cut raw chicken here and I'm not feeling too hot.” They still were pretty inconsistent. I still hadn't really been timing them. They were probably every 4-20 minutes for 30 seconds. So then we ate. I think I ate on my birth ball and then I texted my doula who was also a student-midwife with my midwife. I saw her at every appointment which was pretty convenient. She was just like, “You know, don't really worry about timing them. Just try and rest. Eat some snacks and let me know when they pick up in intensity.” It was 6:00 PM and I was just waiting for bedtime because I knew that once my toddler went to bed, I could really focus and not have to hide that I was in labor. But I still don't think I realized how far along I was. So we did the bedtime routine. I do want to note that I was leaning over on a pillow and my toddler was rubbing my back and saying, “Baby brother, I help you.” It was the sweetest thing. Meagan: Aw, that's adorable. Jessica: Yeah. So finally put him in bed and I told my husband, “Maybe you should just go to sleep with him just in case. Well, I don't know. I'll text you.” I didn't know if he should go to bed or if he should come downstairs and act as my doula. So he was putting my toddler to sleep. I tried to get in the bath. I could not get comfortable. Our bathtub is so tiny and they were definitely picking up in intensity. I just could not get comfortable. That didn't last long. I texted my doula and told her, “I feel like they're on top of each other, my contractions, but they're not quite a minute long.” I think I texted her, “I've had four in a matter of five minutes, but they're short.” She was just like, “Try different positions. Maybe try a shower.” At that point, I had already gone downstairs to try something else. I could not find a comfortable position. So my husband texted me, “What's the situation?” I don't know. All I said was, “Come.” Yeah. I was just like, “Come,” because it was just so uncomfortable. I could not find a comfortable position. I could see him on the monitor because we already had the monitor set up but he was just lying in bed taking his time. I'm like, “What is this man doing?” He did not realize how intense things had gotten. He came downstairs and we tried different positions– laying down on my side and on all fours on the couch, on the ball, and I just couldn't get comfortable. So after 15 or 20 minutes of him trying to help me, I had him text the doula. She got over there around 8:30 and she was helpful with having me take sips of water and giving us ideas for different positions. She tried doing the Spinning Babies side-lying release and that was unbearable, but we did it. Then she had me move to the ball. Actually, I think while we were on the couch and I was lying down doing the side-lying release, I felt something come out. I had a diaper on at this point because I just kept having bloody show. I was like, “Something just came out. What was that? What was that?” It kind of felt like I pooped but it was out of my vagina, so I was just like, “Was that the baby? What just happened?” She looked and it was my bag of water, but it was still intact. It looked like a boob implant to me. Meagan: Yeah, like it was bulging out of you. Jessica: Yeah, but it came out in a bulge, so that was wild. So that was cool. I knew that because she was the student midwife, she would be the one to tell the midwives to come. We weren't even worried about that. She was timing contractions, but I had no idea how fast they were coming. I said at one point, “Why are they coming so frequently?” She was like, “Well, you're in active labor.”Then we moved to the ball and that was unbearable. I felt him move down which was so wild and then I had a birth pool. It was already blown up, but we hadn't even added water or anything. I was like, “Should we start setting that up?” My husband went and got the pool and tried to start putting water in it and whatnot. I was like, “I feel like I need to move to the couch,” so I did. I got on all fours and I had pillows up by my face. It was just so intense. I just remember thinking, “I'm never doing this again.” I asked my husband, “Whose idea was this?” meaning to have another baby and to do it vaginally because I was like, “This is awful.” It was so painful. Then you know, I just stayed in that position. I knew that once I was in that position, there was no way that I was going to be able to move. My husband was setting the pool up for no reason because I was like, “I don't know how I'm going to make it in that pool.”I think one of the midwives showed up around 9:30ish. At that point, I was having the fetal ejection reflex. I was making these guttural noises. You hear about what that feels like and how you just can't control it and it's so true. I felt like when you feel like you have to puke and you puke uncontrollably. It felt like that in my vagina. The noise I was making was totally uncontrollable. There were some intense sounds. The midwife showed up and before I knew it, she was saying, “You're going to feel the ring of fire.” My husband, in hindsight, was like, “I thought she was just saying that. Of course, she's going to feel the ring of fire.” He didn't realize she was saying it because the baby was crowning. He was up by my head holding my hand and stuff. Finally, he realized that the baby's head was coming out. My baby's head popped out and then you heard a tiny little cry, but then it went back in. She had me get in the runner's lunge to try and help him out. I think I pushed maybe three times. She had to remind me to breathe because the fetal ejection reflex was taking over. I just couldn't stop having that feeling to push, so she reminded me to breathe. He came out. He was born at 9:58 so I had, I guess, 12 hours of labor, but I think active labor probably started around 4:00 or 6:00. Again, I'm not really sure because we weren't really timing contractions. He was 8 pounds, 7 ounces. Yeah. It was insane but in the best way. It was so empowering. I couldn't believe that I had done that. One of my affirmation cards was like, “You're a badass for having an HBAC.” My husband was just like, “Yeah. You're a badass. I can't believe you just did that.” Yeah. It was just wild. So amazing. Meagan: Absolutely. I'm sure it was very different for him, too just with the whole situation. “Okay, I'm going to set up the birth pool. She's telling me to come but I'm going to take my time.” It's just a very different experience. Then he's like, “Okay, wow. We're in labor. Let's go.” Then it's like, “Yeah, of course she's going to feel that. Oh, you mean that now she's going to feel that.” Jessica: Yeah, I think neither of us knew how far along I was and how quickly things were progressing. It just happened so fast. Meagan: Yeah. I want to talk about this too because sometimes we get diagnosed with failure to progress. We get to 3 or 4 centimeters and we're told that we'll likely never progress and whatever, then we go to have a C-section. Then we fear having a VBAC sometimes because we are like, “Well, maybe we won't progress past what we've progressed.” But a cool factor about your story is that you never even went into labor, right? You had never even dilated or gone through that whole process. This whole birth, this whole HBAC was essentially like you're a first-time mom. Your cervix was doing this the first time.When we've already progressed in maybe previous labor, that's an even greater chance of a VBAC. You went in and your body did exactly what it needed to do to get this baby out even though you hadn't had any labor previously. Jessica: Yep. Meagan: Pretty cool. Jessica: Yeah. I was very excited to see how it was all going to unfold. Meagan: Mhmm. Well, it sounds like it unfolded beautifully. Now you've got two cute babes and a beautiful home birth under your belt. So now– you were explaining that you were like, “Wow. Why did we do this? Why did we choose to get pregnant? Why did we choose to give birth vaginally?” After it is all said and done, are you like, “Yeah. I would do it again. I'm super happy we did it”?Jessica: Yeah. I actually want to do it again just because it was amazing. At the moment, yeah, it felt like the most painful thing of my life, but after that baby's out and you do it, it's like, “Wow. I did that. I am capable. My body isn't broken. Just because this happened one time doesn't mean it's going to happen again.” It was very empowering. Yeah. It was just amazing. I would love to do it again. Meagan: I love that. Well, huge congrats. Huge, huge congrats. I want to talk a little bit more about vasa previa because I don't think we've had anyone on the podcast who have actually had that before. Usually reasons for a Cesarean– we talked about this before we started recording– are “big baby”, small pelvis, failure to progress, or breech. We don't see these because it is really, really rare. It actually only occurs in 1 in every 2500 deliveries. I don't know if you said anything about IVF but it's more common in IVF which is about 1 in 200 but even then, it's a pretty rare chance. It can happen randomly or if IVF was going on, there is definitely a chance that it could increase your chances. Did you do any IVF at all or was it a spontaneous pregnancy? Jessica: It was spontaneous. I didn't have any of the risk factors for vasa previa so it was totally random. Meagan: Totally random. You were just one of the really rare cases, but it worked out really well. Jessica: Mhmm, it did. Meagan: Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today. Jessica: Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Meet Chris and Jessica - It all started with the infamous swipe right. They went from complete strangers to hitting it off right away over nachos and a Disney movie - you don't want to miss the full story!

Dr. Jessica Lautz is the Deputy Chief Economist and Vice President of Research at the National Association of REALTORS®. In this episode, she is going to share national data with us from NAR and discuss what she sees coming in the future. All of our crystal balls may be broken, but there are definitely patterns that can be seen. The core of Jessica's research focuses on analyzing trends for both NAR members and housing consumers. Through the management of surveys, focus groups, and data analysis, she presents new and innovative ways to showcase results. Let's see what she will teach us in this episode!   [2:46] Jessica thinks we're in a moment of transition when existing home sales data show 12 months of decline but the decline seems to be getting smaller. [4:24] Our current sales numbers are lower than in 2019, before the pandemic. They are more in line with 2014 sales numbers. [6:51] The typical homeowner has been in their home for 10 years and has $210,000 in home equity. [7:14] In some scenarios, not only investors but a large share of primary residence repeat buyers are paying all cash for a home, because of the housing equity they have. [9:34] Home mortgage interest rates had gone down for several weeks continually before going back up to 6.3% from 6.1%. [10:53] Jessica says to pay attention to what happens after the Fed meets. NAR tracks interest rates and puts out a statement every Thursday on social media. [12:30] Jessica explains the indirect effect that the Fed raising interest rates may have on mortgage loan interest rates. [13:41] Jessica hopes that existing home sales in spring will be stronger than it was in the previous two months. She is starting to see early signs of it. [15:52] Jessica breaks down corporate investors. We know that they're present in the market, but has their share of the market gone up? [16:41] The investors of 2022 pushed first-time homebuyers out of the market. [18:18] In March of 2022 there were five-and-a-half offers for every home that was listed. [19:02] Jessica discusses credit card debt, student loan debt, and daycare costs. How are first-time homebuyers going to save a down payment when they use their credit card to buy eggs and milk? [22:01] Jessica believes that awareness of low-down-payment programs in communities is low. Putting that information out there for potential buyers is incredibly important. [25:15] Jessica discusses the aging population and the housing market. In the next three years, every Baby Boomer will be over the age of 60. [26:36] Retirees are looking for newer homes with bells and whistles where they can age in place. [33:54] Jessica shares a few of her favorite data points. [37:31] Jessica also shares that a lot of first-time homebuyers are trying to get out of their parents' homes and move into home ownership. [38:08] Jessica shares her links for NAR Research at NAR.realtor. You can also subscribe and share infographic posts from NAR Research on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.       Tweetables:   “We released our existing home sales data and it showed a continual decline — 12 months of decline — but it seems like the decline is getting smaller. … [It] is not necessarily a normal spring market; … interest rates are still high, but a more normal spring market.”  — Jessica   “Buyers are coming back. They understand now that rates are higher but they may actually have an opportunity in the market, especially first-time homebuyers.” — Jessica   “It's also your long-term future. It's also the long-term savings and the gains that you have in home ownership that you don't have as a renter.” — Jessica   “Only 26% of the market was first-time homebuyers last year. In a healthy market, it would be 40%. So we really lost first-time homebuyers last year.” — Jessica     Guest Links:   Dr. Jessica Lautz   NAR.realtor Research section NAR Research on Facebook NAR Research on Instagram NAR Research on Twitter Email data@nar.realtor   Additional Links:   Micro courses found at Learning.REALTOR. Use the coupon code PODCAST to obtain 15% off the price of any online class!   Crdpodcast.com   Learning.REALTOR for NAR Online Education Training4RE.com — List of Classroom Courses from NAR and its affiliates   New! Home Finance Resource (HFR) Certification   crd@nar.realtor   Host Information: Monica Neubauer Speaker/Podcaster/REALTOR® Monica@MonicaNeubauer.com MonicaNeubauer.com FranklinTNBlog.com   Monica's Facebook Page Facebook.com/Monica.Neubauer Instagram Instagram.com/MonicaNeubauerSpeaks   Additional Bio: Dr. Jessica Lautz is the Deputy Chief Economist and Vice President of Research at the National Association of REALTORS®. In 2021, Dr. Lautz was named one of Housing Wire's Women of Influence, a list representing 100 of the most influential women in leadership in the housing industry. In 2022 and 2023, Dr. Lautz was named RIS Media Newsmaker in My Influencer and Crusader categories, respectively.

Thanks for your patience!  Winter is tough. ______________________________________________ This episode includes graphic violence, archiac psychiatric attitudes and terminology, gaslighting, and misogyny.  It was written intentionally to emulate the style of Italian "GIALLO" thriller films of the 1970s and 80s. ______________________________________________ Hot chicks in peril, black leather-gloved killer, faces through plate glass, badly-dubbed voices, and lots and lots of the red stuff! Written and produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Dr. Silver - Anthony D.P. Mann Jessica - Julie Hoverson Adrienne - Robyn Keyes Dana - Kate Waterous Chris - Tanja Milojevic Inspector Gules - Glen Hallstrom Manager - Dru Williams Voice on Phone - Lord Blood-Rah Cop1 - Desmond Reddick (Dread Media) Cop2 - Miguel Guerreiro (FearShop.com) Coroner - Jack Kincaid (Edict Zero) Detective - Caretaker (Graveyard Show) Music:  Professor Kliq Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover: Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it?  Why it's a psychiatrist's office, can't you tell?" ________________________________________   WHEN YELLOW CASTS A CRIMSON SHADOW Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] Jessica Dr. Silver Dana Adrienne Chris Detective Gules Manager Voice Cop1 Cop2 Detective Coroner OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a psychiatrist's office, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND      LOW MUSIC PLAYS SOUND     DOOR OPENS JESSICA     Dr. Silver? SILVER Ah, you must be Jessica. Come in!  Come in.  Your father has spoken of you often. JESSICA     Mm.  He told me to come to you if I.... needed anything. SILVER Come in! Sit down!  I can't tactfully say I am pleased to see you, but I can heartily say I am most happy to make your acquaintance. JESSICA     Oh.  Yeah.  Thanks. SOUND     DOOR SHUTS QUIETLY, SHE CROSSES ROOM AND SITS SILVER There. Now tell me what I can do for you. JESSICA     Since I moved to Florence, I've - I've been doing really well.  Sleeping.  Even without the drugs. SILVER You haven't been taking your prescriptions? JESSICA     My doctor back home said I could cut back some - once I started feeling better. SILVER Your doctor--? JESSICA     Dr. Gelb.  Joan Gelb? SILVER Ah, yes, I am familiar with some of her work. Go on. JESSICA     Go... on? SILVER You had a reason for coming to me, didn't you? JESSICA     Oh!  Yes.  [very down] The dreams. SILVER [after a beat] Yes? JESSICA     Well, I came here to attend university.  And be closer to my father. SILVER He is not in the United States? JESSICA     No.  He's on diplomatic attachment in the Netherlands - [amused] but I don't understand any Dutch. SILVER [chuckles] JESSICA     So I found a room with three other girls from the college.  They're all models.  To pay for their classes.  Well, except Dana - she just models for fun...  Sorry.  That's probably not important.  SILVER Don't let it worry you. Go at your own pace. JESSICA     Can I have a piece of paper? SILVER You want to take notes? [teasing]  That's really my job. JESSICA     No, no!  It helps me concentrate.  Please? SOUND     PAPER RIPPED FROM NOTEBOOK, PASSED OVER JESSICA     Thank you. SOUND     PAPER FOLDED, TORN - UNDER THROUGHOUT JESSICA     So, Dana, Chris, and Adrienne - are all gorgeous.  I'm the mouse.  [heavy sigh] Don't get me wrong - they're all very nice. SILVER But you are a bit jealous? JESSICA     They've all got legs all the way up to their shoulders! SILVER [musing] A woman with legs up to her shoulders might be missing a heart. JESSICA     [startled, laughs, relaxes a bit]  I like that.  But, they're nice - really nice. SILVER You're lucky. Good friends are hard to find. JESSICA     Yes... [trails off, sighs, then absently]  The dream. SILVER Whenever you're ready. JESSICA     You're going to think I'm horrible! SILVER Nonsense. Dreams are primarily symbolic, and everyone dreams about things they are embarrassed by.  I promise not to judge you. JESSICA     [gulps, long breath] In the dream, I come home.  Our apartment is on the top floor, so I walk up and up the endless stairs.  It's the type that goes round and round an open space.  [her voice slowly picks up an echo, as if in a stairwell] You know, where you can look all the way down to the ground floor - as long as you don't have to worry about vertigo? SOUND [under]      FOOTSTEPS ECHOING UP THE STAIRWELL SILVER Mm. JESSICA     And the door was ... open. JESSICA [under] Hello? JESSICA     I pushed it the rest of the way, and went in.  And everything was red.  Red on the walls.  I couldn't understand.  All I could think was - did we repaint? SILVER Yes? JESSICA     And then I looked up and saw the light fixture.  It was red too.  Red and dripping.  [slowly] Slowly dripping. SILVER [after a pause] Is that when you woke? JESSICA     [hollow, numb] No.  [coming back]  Can I have another piece of paper?  I'll trade you. SILVER A crane? Very nice. JESSICA     It was... part of my therapy. SOUND     PAPER RIPS, PASSED OVER, MORE FOLDING BEGINS SILVER Still... very nice. JESSICA     Thanks.  [deep breath]  I went into the next room.  [half a chuckle]  Out of the foyer into the frying pan.  [lame laugh]  You must think I'm awful, to be able to joke at a time like this! SILVER No. Humor is a very common way to deal with painful circumstances.  Don't concern yourself with what I think. JESSICA     Adrienne was in the sitting room.  [trying not to choke up]  Dead.  She was - all cut up, and the mirror next to the kitchen door was smashed and bloody.  I could see my reflection in the shards ....sticking ...out of her ...eyes. JESSICA [tinny] [screams] SILVER [after a short moment] Was that where the dream ended? JESSICA     [trying to be chipper]  Yes.  Just that.  Just... seeing her dead. SILVER I'd... like to venture an interpretation of this dream that might help you... come to terms with it. JESSICA     Yes? SILVER It's a manifestation of a deep-seated jealousy. JESSICA     I'm not jealous! SILVER It's normal - don't worry. She's a beautiful model and you want to see yourself in her eyes as she appears to yours.  JESSICA     [brightening] Really?  But it was so bloody. SILVER Symbolism again. Red is the color of jealousy and passion.  Nothing more. MUSIC SOUND     HER FOOTSTEPS ECHO UP ENDLESS STAIRWAY SOUND     HEAVY FOOTSTEPS BELOW SOUND     HER FOOTSTEPS STOP SOUND     A COUPLE OF HEAVY FOOTSTEPS, APPROACHING SOUND     HER FOOTSTEPS, RUNNING UP THE STAIRS SOUND     SHE PAUSES AGAIN JESSICA     [heavy breathing, trying to be quiet and listen] SOUND     NO FOOTSTEPS SOUND     THUMPING SOUNDS APPROACH - SETS OF FOUR SOUND     TURNS OUT TO BE A BALL COMING DOWN THE STAIRS SOUND     SHE CATCHES THE BALL JESSICA     [sigh, chuckle] CHILD     [strangely bland] My ball! JESSICA     [gasp, almost a scream]  Oh!  [more normal] I've got it. SOUND     HER STEPS BEGIN AGAIN MUSIC SOUND     DOOR OPENS DANA     [lecturing] I only eat chocolate off a man. JESSICA     [gasp] CHRIS     Ha!  What a line to come in on!  Dana was just explaining her perfect diet plan. ADRIENNE     It makes perfect sense - work up a sweat, then have all the chocolate you want! JESSICA     You girls. DANA     Don't tell me you wouldn't, if you had a chance? JESSICA     Well... CHRIS     Maybe she doesn't like chocolate! ADRIENNE     Maybe she doesn't like men. JESSICA     I like chocolate!  My father sent me some cocoa - the good Dutch kind. DANA     I'm surprised you like men any more, Adrienne, after all that bastard Alberto put you through. ADRIENNE     Don't get me started.  [beat]  You should really be allowed to shoot men when you're through with them.  CHRIS     I'd have a trail of bodies stretching to the sunset. JESSICA     Are there any more of those apples? DANA     Catch! SOUND      CATCHING AN APPLE CHRIS     What would we do when we run out of men? ADRIENNE     [bitter, haunted] Not all men, just the ones who want to track you down and torment you. DANA     He didn't! CHRIS     Again? JESSICA     [bites into apple, then chewing]  What? DANA      You should tell her. ADRIENNE     It makes me sound like such a victim. DANA     Why do you think she never does bikini shots? CHRIS     She's moved three times in the past year - but he always finds her. DANA     She's got the scars to prove it. MUSIC SOUND     SOFT MUSIC PLAYS SOUND     DOOR SLAMS OPEN, HURRIED FEET ENTER JESSICA     It  happened again! SILVER Calm down, Jessica. JESSICA     I'm - I'm so sorry to burst in here like this-- SILVER Sit down. JESSICA     But I - I can't concentrate on anything today-- SOUND     PAPER RIPPING FROM NOTEBOOK SILVER Here. Now sit. SOUND     SHE SNATCHES THE PAPER, FLAPS IT JESSICA     Thank you.  Are you sure it's ok? SILVER I've got plenty of paper. JESSICA     [chuckles] No, I mean-- [sighs] Thank you. SOUND     SHE SITS, BEGINS FOLDING JESSICA     I feel like such a fool. SILVER It obviously upset you. Sharing will make you feel better.  You had another dream? JESSICA     No!  That's the weird part - it was the same dream! SILVER The same? JESSICA     Well, it started the same.  Going up the stairs, and the blood on the light, and ... [almost a whisper] Adrienne. SILVER And...? JESSICA     It was all the same - except the ending.  SILVER How did it end, then? JESSICA     It didn't.  I mean - it went on, from where I woke up before.  SILVER Hmm. JESSICA     I was staring at myself in the mirror shards - but then I realized it wasn't me.  Not Jessica.  Not this time - that was different.  SILVER Who was in the reflection? JESSICA     I think it was.... the killer! [NOTE - now the voices in the consulting room are tinny, as the scene plays out underneath] SOUND     [repeat of Jessica's scream from the first dream, which trails off into a weird noise of breathing] SOUND     FOOTSTEPS WALK SLOWLY THROUGH SQUISHY BLOODY PUDDLE SILVER Be as specific as you want. You won't shock me.  You can give me every detail. JESSICA      I can smell the blood.  It's everywhere.  SILVER It's quite a distinctive smell. JESSICA      Yes. SOUND     DOOR PUSHED SLOWLY OPEN, FOOTSTEPS MOVE INTO DRY SPACE SOUND     SQUEAK AS KNIFE IS CLEANED OFF - LEATHER AGAINST METAL SOUND     FOUR TAPS OF KNIFE AGAINST WOOD JESSICA      It was Dana's room.  And she was sleeping. SILVER So this was nighttime? JESSICA      [slightly confused] I don't know.  Dana sleeps late.  SILVER Jessica - in the dream, are you Jessica, or are you the killer? JESSICA      I - I'm not sure.  I'm not... thinking in the dream, just seeing and feeling... and smelling.  I can't see a face - even in the mirrors - I just knew it was the killer looking back at me, but I couldn't tell you what he...I...looked like. SILVER [too interested] What are you wearing? JESSICA      Boots.  Black.  Leather gloves.  I move toward Dana's bed... SOUND     CREAK OF THE LEATHER GLOVES SILVER Do you stab her too? JESSICA      [offhand] Oh, Adrienne wasn't stabbed - at least... that wasn't how she died.  She was strangled.  SOUND     CREAK OF LEATHER DANA     [gasps, awakens, tries to breathe] SOUND     CLAWING AT LEATHER, SHAKING OF BED, POUNDING SILVER And then she died? JESSICA      Oh, no.  That would be too quick.  I let up just in time - she's out. SILVER [licks his lips] Do you tie her up? JESSICA      Yes.  I tie her to the bed frame.  Up and down. SILVER What is she wearing? JESSICA      A scarlet negligee.  She got it after one of her modeling shoots - the picture is on the wall over the bed.  Huge.  Her.  Posed in red.  Enticing. SOUND     [tinny] CRUMPLE OF PAPER SILVER And then...? JESSICA      [coming out of it]  I-I- can I have another piece of paper? SILVER [breathing a bit heavily, trying to calm down] Of course. SOUND     PAPER TORN RATHER CLUMSILY OUT OF NOTEBOOK - RIPS IN HALF SILVER Damn. What will you make? SOUND     TEARS ANOTHER PIECE, SHE SNATCHES IT AWAY FROM HIM, BEGINS FOLDING JESSICA      A box.  I feel like I'm in a box. SILVER Perhaps you should make something more... open. Something you can get out of. JESSICA      Maybe next time. SILVER All right. Was there more to the dream? JESSICA      A little.  After Dana woke up.  SILVER [trying to hide his excitement] What happened? JESSICA      [evasive] I just... killed her. MUSIC ESCALATES SOUND     STABBING - SETS OF FOUR DANA     [Screaming, begging, gurgling] SOUND     SPLATTER DANA     [gurgling] SOUND     A COUPLE MORE KNIFE STABS DANA     [death rattle] SOUND     DRIPPING SOUND     WIPING KNIFE WITH GLOVES AGAIN MUSIC SOUND     FOOTSTEPS IN STAIRWELL, STOP FOR A SECOND SOUND     FAR AWAY, DOOR OPENS JESSICA     [sigh] SOUND     TWO STEPS SOUND     DOOR NEARBY SLAMS OPEN SOUND     FEROCIOUS DOG!!!!! JESSICA     [screams, then smothers it] SOUND     SCRABBLING OF DOG NAILS ON TILE FLOOR JESSICA     Mrs. Amarelo!  Mrs. Amarelo!  Please! MUSIC SOUND     TEAPOT WHISTLING, TAKEN OFF, WATER POURS JESSICA     [talking loudly to someone in another room] She really needs to keep that dog on a shorter leash.  She's lucky I didn't jump back and fall down the stairs. SOUND     DOOR OPENS, SLIPPERED FEET IN DANA     [half awake]  Mm.  Coffee? JESSICA     [silly!] Cocoa.  [gasp] Oh! DANA     You don't like it?  It's imported French lace. JESSICA     I'm just not used to-- DANA     And red is such a good color on me. ADRIENNE     [calling from the other room] --she's just shy. SOUND     FOOTSTEPS COME IN ADRIENNE     [close] Haven't you ever wondered, Jessica? JESSICA     [disturbed]  Wondered... what? SOUND     A COUPLE OF STEPS DANA     Mmm? ADRIENNE     What it would be like with a woman? JESSICA     [disturbed] Um - no.  Uh, I don't even know anyone who does-- ADRIENNE     Anyone who you KNOW does, anyway. JESSICA     Um... I guess. SOUND     DOOR SLAMS OPEN CHRIS     [freaking out, out of breath] Oh, god!  SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SHUT, BODY THUMPS AGAINST IT ADRIENNE     What's wrong?  Sit down! SOUND     DOOR LOCKS JESSICA     Cocoa? CHRIS     Thanks!  [sips, then shudders in a breath] ADRIENNE     What happened? CHRIS     [gasping it out] On the street.  A gun! It was so loud!  DANA     Someone was shot?  I'm phoning the police. ADRIENNE     Give her a minute!  She's nearly hysterical! CHRIS     No!  No!  Call them!  The sooner I tell, the sooner he'll be caught! JESSICA     Did you see the guy? CHRIS     Uh-huh! [yes] MUSIC SOUND     LOW MUSIC PLAYS SOUND     PAPER FOLDING JESSICA     I have this awful feeling-- SILVER Yes? JESSICA     That this is all... some kind of premonition. SILVER You think you're seeing something that might happen in the future? JESSICA     It would make so much sense. SILVER Is there anything in the dream that makes you think it will happen? JESSICA     Like what? SILVER Something with the date? A newspaper, perhaps? JESSICA     [concentrating]  Mmm, no.  None of us really reads the papers.  Magazines, yes, but they don't come out that often.  [beat] And they all kind of look the same. SILVER Have you ever had a dream - any dream - come true in the past? JESSICA     What?  [half a chuckle] No! SILVER Then I think you are safe. [teasing, fatherly] But make sure to lock your door. JESSICA     [laughs a bit] SILVER [getting back on track] So. The dream came back.  Again. JESSICA     [quiet, sad] Yes. SILVER And it was--? JESSICA     Longer. SILVER [avid] So once again, you saw your first two friends strangled and tortured and-- [swallows] mutilated. JESSICA     Yes.  SILVER And then? What about your third friend - what was her name? JESSICA     Chris.  [numb]  Chris was in the hall.  She must have heard the commotion with Dana.  I... feel like the killer was - ummmm - surprised.  Like he didn't expect her to be there. SILVER Why do you say that? JESSICA     I don't know.  Just that he - I - had to chase her down. SILVER Be specific. JESSICA     I came out of Dana's bedroom-- [office voices go tinny] SOUND     SQUISHING FOOTSTEPS, WIPE FEET AND STEP ONTO TILE SOUND     DOOR OPENS CHRIS     Dana?  What?  Oh, god!  [screams] JESSICA     I hesitate, stunned.  Just long enough for her to run back into her room. SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SOUND     HEAVY FEET RUN, SLAM INTO DOOR CHRIS     [muffled] No!  No! SOUND     SLAM INTO DOOR, WOOD CREAKS AND CRACKS JESSICA     There's such a - a rush as the door gives way. SILVER Where is Chris? JESSICA     She's pressed again the window, outlined in light from the pink and red neon across the street. SILVER Ahhhh. What is she wearing? JESSICA     Silk.  A blue slip-- SILVER Blue? Are you sure? JESSICA     Yes.  Why? SILVER The neon light - it might be deceptive. JESSICA     I saw it in the hall. SILVER Ahhh. What color is her hair?  JESSICA     Chris?  She has long straight blonde hair.  SILVER And very pretty. JESSICA     Yes. SILVER Mmmmm. SOUND     WINDOW SLAMS OPEN JESSICA     I raise the knife and she screams again, trying to climb out the window. SILVER Can she? JESSICA     We're six stories up.  That's why there's all those stairs. SILVER Do you... cut her? JESSICA     Better.  I set the knife aside again-- SOUND     LEATHER ON METAL JESSICA      --and take her by the throat.  The black leather of the gloves looks strange in the neon pink glow - especially against her pale white throat. SILVER Does she struggle? JESSICA     Like a fiend.  She strikes and kicks, but it is all in vain.  [coming out of it] The killer must be a man. SILVER [startled out] Um? Of course--  Um, [swallows, clears throat] The um - the killer in the dream. JESSICA     That's what I meant. SILVER Right. More paper? SOUND     RIPS PAPER OUT OF NOTEBOOK JESSICA     Thanks. SOUND     TAKES IT, STARTS FOLDING SILVER You've made me quite a little collection here. What's this one? JESSICA     A knife.  SILVER [amused] A paper knife. And this? JESSICA     A shrew. SILVER No more cranes? JESSICA     Cranes are peaceful.  I haven't been feeling very... peaceful. SILVER Do you want to continue? JESSICA     Don't you have another appointment? SILVER No. Your case is fascinating, so I cleared some extra time for you. JESSICA     Oh.  All right. SILVER At least follow the dream to the conclusion. JESSICA     Where was I? SILVER [too quick] You were strangling Chris. SOUND     STRANGLING NOISES UP AGAIN SOUND     HAND POUNDING AGAINST GLASS [voices go tinny again] JESSICA     Right.  Then she passed out. SOUND     STRUGGLE STOPS, SQUEAK OF HAND SLIDING DOWN PANE SILVER Gooood. SOUND     ROPE PASSING THROUGH HANDS SILVER And--? JESSICA     I took the cord from the blinds and wrapped it around her neck. SILVER Strangling her? Again?  Why? JESSICA     It wasn't tied that tight. SILVER Then, what? JESSICA     Then I cut her a little.  Not deep.  Just enough to see red - just enough for the blood to flow.  Shoulders.  Thighs.  Chest.  It took a long time for her to wake up again. SILVER Did you cut her blue slip off? JESSICA     It's not blue any more.  Now it's wet and dark in strange rivulet patterns.  So is the floor. SILVER And then? JESSICA     Her eyes open - and once again I see my own reflection twice in one face.  And this time I can almost make out who I am.  If it weren't for that darn pink neon, I might be able to. SILVER Does SHE recognize you? JESSICA     [dismissively] Maybe.  She tries to scream.  But I already gagged her.  [little sigh]  She was asleep a long time. SILVER Uh-huh? JESSICA     I pull her up by her hair - her long blonde lovely hair.  The word "tresses" pops into my mind. SILVER Tresses. That's a good word. JESSICA     She squirms and tries to escape.  Her eyes plead with me.  But I don't waver.  I show her the knife and she closes her eyes.  I run the hilt of the knife over her forehead and she squeals - when really all I want to do is press her eyelids open. SILVER She can't understand that, can she? JESSICA     I just want her to see.  She was always a big one for seeing things. SILVER See what? JESSICA     The window. SILVER Is there something outside? JESSICA     Not yet. SILVER Oh? JESSICA     As soon as her eyelids flutter open, I turn her toward the window and slam her face into it, shattering the glass.  Something breaks in her, too, and I hear her muffled agony. SILVER Her nose? JESSICA     I don't know, since as soon as the glass is gone, I push her out. SILVER On the cord? JESSICA     She dances so prettily.  SILVER Do the people outside see? JESSICA     No, the music from the club with the neon is very loud, and no one ever looks up. SILVER What about the blood? JESSICA     I don't know.  I woke up. SILVER [breathing heavily, calming down] JESSICA     What do you think? SILVER We definitely have some work to do. You'll see me each afternoon for a while - can you promise me you will? JESSICA     Of course, if you think it's important. SILVER Very. And here is my home number-- SOUND     SCRIBBLING ON A CARD SILVER --In case anything else comes to mind. JESSICA     You're sure you don't mind if I call you? SILVER No. Of course not.  In fact, I insist.  I am here for you. MUSIC AMB     STREET, NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE AROUND SOUND     JESSICA'S STEPS, HURRYING SOUND     A STRANGE TAPPING NOISE - SETS OF FOUR - GETTING CLOSER SOUNDS     SHE SPEEDS UP SOUND     THE TAPPING GETS CLOSER SOUND     SHE SPEEDS UP MORE JESSICA     [gasping] SOUND     GRAB AND FLING OPEN DOOR SOUND     FEET RUN INTO BUILDING SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SHUT JESSICA     [breathing heavily]  SOUND     TAPS GO PAST OUTSIDE JESSICA     [sighs, almost laughs] MANAGER     [off slightly] Scotomaphobia? JESSICA     [gasps] SOUND     THUMP AS SHE RECOILS JESSICA     What?  Mr. Cramoisie?  You - you startled me! SOUND     CIGARETTE CRUSHED OUT MANAGER     The fear of going blind. JESSICA     Huh? Me? MANAGER     I saw you run from the white stick.  [chuckles] And I don't know a word for fear of a blind man. MUSIC SOUND     DOOR OPENS TENTATIVELY JESSICA     [clearly worried] Hello? ADRIENNE     Jess?  Is there something wrong? JESSICA     [sigh of relief]  No.  Nothing.  Glad to be home. SOUNDS     STEPS COME IN, DOOR SHUTS SOUND     REMOVING COAT, ETC. DANA     I was just putting on some tea - want some? JESSICA     No, thanks.  Save me some water, though? ADRIENNE     You and your cocoa.  Come in here - we've got company. SOUND     A FEW SLOW STEPS JESSICA     Oh?  Hello. GULES     Ah.  This must be your other roommate.  Very pleased.  Four such lovely ladies, [slightly ominous] all alone. CHRIS     This is Detective Gules.  That is Jessica.  Sit down Jessie.  JESSICA     Detective? SOUND     CHAIR CREAKS AS SHE SITS CHRIS     He's investigating - um - [whispered] what I saw yesterday. GULES     We suspect the murder she witnessed was gangster-related, and are concerned for her safety.  Your safety, too.  This isn't a very secure building.  You don't even have grilles on the windows. DANA     Pssht!  We're six floors up!  Who needs grilles!  Here, Jess.  Water-- SOUND     MUG SET DOWN DANA     And your precious cocoa. SOUND     TIN SOUND     SPOON DROPPED INTO MUG DANA     [to the room, teasing] I wouldn't dare measure it for you. JESSICA     [laughs]  That's perfect, Dana, thanks.  SOUND     MIXES UP THE COCOA GULES     I'm trying to convince Chris to let me take her into protection.  [getting darker] We want to make sure she stays where we can put our hands on her. MUSIC SOUND     PHONE PICKED UP JESSICA     Hello?  VOICE     [harsh whisper]  Four girls.  Could be three.  Or one. JESSICA     Who is this?  You're scaring me. VOICE     Will it be you? JESSICA     I'm hanging up now! SOUND     PHONE SLAMMED DOWN DANA     [worried] Jess?  Who was that? JESSICA     A heavy breather.  You know the type. DANA     I didn't even hear the phone ring. JESSICA     Oh?  Umm... I must have picked it up just as it was starting.  Who did you think it was? DANA     Oh, Michel.  My brother.  He's been asking for money again.  JESSICA     What's wrong this time? DANA     Same old shit.  Someone's going to break his legs.  Someone's going to kill his dog.  [disgusted noise]  He ran through his half of the inheritance years ago. JESSICA     And you don't feel sorry for him? DANA     I felt one hundred thousand dollars sorry for him, and that was in the first month after he flushed all his cash down one toilet and another.  Since then.  [shrug]  Not so damn sorry. MUSIC SOUND     SNORING [Dr. Silver] SOUND     PHONE RINGS SOUND     PHONE PICKED UP SILVER [not awake] mmm Hello? JESSICA     [on phone, hysterical] Doctor?  Please?  Something terrible has happened! SILVER [snapping awake, but still groggy] Jessica? Wha-what's going on? JESSICA     [on phone] You have to come, Doctor!  I need help!  [backs off and screams] SOUND     [on phone] PHONE DROPS, THUMPS A FEW TIMES. SOUND     BED CLOTHES FLUNG OFF MUSIC SOUND     DOC'S FEET COMING UP THE STAIRS, QUICKLY SILVER [reading door numbers] 601... 602...? JESSICA     [moan]  SILVER Jessica? What has happened? JESSICA     D-doctor?  SILVER Come out here. My god - what--? JESSICA     A nosebleed.  I - I get them sometimes. SILVER With the dreams? JESSICA     Uh-huh. SILVER Why are you out here in the hall? JESSICA     I didn't want to wake anyone. SILVER They're your friends. They will surely understand.  Let's go inside.  [suave] Maybe have some of your famous cocoa? JESSICA     [small laugh]  That would be nice. SILVER Invite me in? SOUND     DOOR OPENS JESSICA     You're invited. SOUND     A COUPLE OF STEPS, A SLIGHT SQUISH SILVER [slight shock] What? MUSIC JESSICA     [sips, then] The dream was sooo bad this time. SILVER [grunt] JESSICA     Then I found these-- SOUND     SLAP OF LEATHER GLOVES JESSICA     And suddenly everything started to be so real.  But it can't be, can it? SILVER [grunt] JESSICA     I hoped I would wake up, and the gloves would be gone, but here they are. SOUND     GLOVES CREAK SILVER [agreeing grunt] JESSICA     It's really good isn't it?  Is it too hot for you? SILVER [slight overreaction negative grunt] JESSICA     My father sent it.  From the Netherlands.  He's always somewhere else.  I mean somewhere else from where I am, anyway.  Did I tell you how my mother died? SILVER [negative] JESSICA     She committed suicide when I was 5.  I found her.  Dr. Gelb says that's why I can't sleep.  She says I can never forget my mother's dead eyes.   SILVER Hmm? JESSICA     They looked at me, but they weren't really her any more, you know? SILVER Hmm. JESSICA     [briskly] But this is all beside the point.  I'm so glad the girls are heavy sleepers.  So we can talk. SILVER Mm-hmm. JESSICA     [very important]  I finally saw myself in the dream. SILVER Mmm? JESSICA     I mean, I, in the killer's eyes, saw me - Jessica.  Do you know how frightening that could be?  The idea that I could not only watch myself be butchered, but that I would somehow be behind the eyes of the one doing it? SILVER [sigh] JESSICA     [sips]  SOUND     SETS DOWN CUP, PICKS UP PIECE OF PAPER, STARTS FOLDING JESSICA     Somehow, when I have a piece of paper in my hands, the dream fades into something that might have been on the television. SILVER Hmm. JESSICA     [beat, then] Once Chris was dead, the killer must have pulled her back in.  She was on the bed, starred with glass in the dark.  Pink stars, catching the neon. SILVER Mmm. JESSICA     I watch his black gloved hand push open my own bedroom door.  I'm lying on the bed, tossing in my sleep.  SILVER Umm. JESSICA     The knife in my - his - hand leads me to the bed.  To the woman.  To me. SILVER Umm? JESSICA     [agreeing] I know.  SOUND     [off slightly]  DOOR SLAMS OPEN JESSICA     What? COP1     [off] Oh my god! COP2     [off] [trying not to hurl] SOUND     HER SQUISHY, STICKY BARE FOOTSTEPS JESSICA     [way too calm, calling]  Chris?  Did you call for the police?  [to the police] You should have knocked. COP1     What the hell?  What... the ... hell! COP2     Is all that...blood? JESSICA     What?  Oh, the nosebleed.  Sorry, I should have changed into something fresh.  Would you like some cocoa? COP1     [calling back over his shoulder] Watch where you step! MUSIC     SOUND     GURNEY AFTER GURNEY BEING WHEELED OUT BEHIND THEM SOUND     DOG BARKING DOWN THE HALL, KEEPS GOING COP1     It's bad, sir. COP2     You might want some shoe covers. DETECTIVE     Who could have done such an awful thing? COP2     Someone crazy.  Truly out of his mind. DETECTIVE     Or her mind. COP1     Do you have any reason to suspect a woman? DETECTIVE     [shrug] I suspect everyone.  How many bodies? CORONER     Four bodies.  And one clinging to life. DETECTIVE     And the smell? CORONER     Rotting flesh.  [long sniff]  Been lying here several days, if I don't miss my guess.  MUSIC end

Rounding Up Season 1 | Episode 10: Asset-Based Learning Environments Guest: Dr. Jessica Hunt Mike Wallus: Take a moment to think about the students in your most recent class. What assets do each of them bring to your classroom and how might those assets provide a foundation for their learning? Today we're talking with Dr. Jessica Hunt about asset-based learning environments. We'll talk about how educators can build an asset-based learning environment in their classrooms, schools, and school districts. Welcome to the podcast, Jessica. Thanks for joining us. Jessica Hunt: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here today. Mike: Well, I would love to start our conversation asking you to help define some language that we're going to use throughout the course of the podcast.  Jessica: Sure.  Mike: I'm wondering if you can just describe the difference between an asset-based and a deficitfocused learning environment. Jessica: I think historically what we see a lot of is deficit-based thinking. And deficit-based thinking focuses on perceived weaknesses of students—or even a group of students. And it focuses on students as the problem. And as a result, we tend to use instruction in an attempt to fix students or to fix their thinking. So, an asset-based learning environment means focusing on and beginning with strengths as opposed to what we think kids need or how to fix them. So, this means viewing kids as able and recognizing that the diversity of their thoughts, their culture, their experiences—all of these things are valuable and can actually strengthen and add meaning to classrooms and to instruction. I think assetbased learning environments involve a shift in our own mindset as teachers. And, of course, what we hope results from that is a shift in our practice. We talk a lot about growth mindsets for kids. I think I am referring to growth mindsets that teachers have about kids. We can ask, ‘What do students know and how can I use that? Or how can I build upon that through my teaching?' I've never met a kid that didn't bring something to instruction. Every student that I've met [has] had strengths that they bring to mathematics classrooms and to communities to expand their thinking and also that of their peers. Mike: It's fascinating listening to your description. I find myself thinking about how deficit-based many of the systems and structures … Jessica: Yeah. Mike: … and practices are, even though we do these things with positive intent.  Jessica: Yeah.  Mike: Can you just say more about that? How do you see deficit thinking filtering into some of the systems and then impacting the learning environments in our kids? Jessica: Sure. I think two ways that I see deficit thinking filtering into driving—and driving systems in classrooms—involve things like time and priorities. Time and how it's used in classrooms and schools is one area that deficit thinking can impact in a big way. How are systems recommending that teachers actually spend their time with students in the context of a particular day or a week or even a unit of instruction? And I ask that question because I think that it's one thing to state that we have asset-based approach. Yet it's quite another to consider the need to develop meaningful habits within classroom spaces that can really promote student strengths. Mike: So, one of the things that you just said really struck me, which is this idea of habits in the classroom. I'm excited to hear what you're going to say about that. Jessica: I think one of the key habits that we have in asset-based learning environments is this idea of listening to kids. I've never met a student that didn't have viable and valuable ideas about mathematics. The key for me is having the time and space to uncover and understand what those are. So, we've got to have a way to listen to students' thinking. When we do that, when we understand the reasoning and the strengths that they're bringing, that supports us in selecting instructional tools and strategies that leverage both their individual strengths and those that they bring to the group in order to promote learning. Mike: Let's pick up on that a little bit. This idea of listening to kids and understanding their thinking and understanding of what it means about the assets that they bring. For a person who might be listening, help them form an image of what that might look like in an elementary classroom. Talk to me a little bit about on a day-to-day basis, how might this idea of listening to kids or attending to kids' thinking—and really considering the assets—how might that show up? Jessica: One way it shows up is this focus on learning. And before I go on with that, I want to talk a little bit about how learning and a focus on it is a little different than focusing on performance. So, focusing on performance as opposed to learning, risks looking at change as something that's fast and quick as opposed to something that grows and endures. So, part of focusing on learning means that we're looking more at the process as opposed to only examining quick outcomes or products of what students are experiencing in classrooms. It's actually interesting to think about that in terms of educational equity because there's some research that actually suggests that performance gains don't necessarily equate to learning gains. Mike: I think that's fascinating. You're making me think of two things. One, and I'm going to reference this for people who are listening, is ‘Taking Action,' which is NCTM's work. Really trying to say what do some of the really critical principles of high-quality education look like in grades pre-K through 5? And they have a really specific focus on attending to what do we want kids to learn versus simply what's the performance. Jessica: Yes, absolutely. Mike: I also just wanted to key in on something you said, which is that performance can be short-lived, but learning endures. Jessica: It sure does. If we want to focus on learning, it means that we have to be intentional in our classroom practices. And I also think that links to a lot of things. Like you brought up NCTM, and a lot of the things that they advocate for. I think there are some natural linkages there as well. So, for me, being intentional, one key part of that is ensuring that students are doing the thinking so that teachers can listen to and promote that thinking. So, we want the placement of the learning and the thinking on the students for a good percentage of the instructional time. We want to ensure that we're immersing students in content rather than simply presenting it all the time. And I think another part of that listening involves positioning students and the ideas that they're bringing forward as competent. So, I think, together, what all of this means is that we're supporting students to make meaning for themselves, yet definitely not by themselves. Jessica: Teachers have an intentional, key role. And part of that intentionality involves things like slowing down and thinking carefully about how to structure learning experiences. And taking more time and planning and ensuring that students have access to multiple ways to engage in and represent and express their thinking with respect to those tasks and activities that they're using and drawing upon to learn. And I think that asset-based learning environments allow for that intentionality. It allows for that time and space and planning. And in teaching, it allows for that immersion and thinking and listening and positioning of students as the sense-makers, as the doers and thinkers of mathematics. Mike: I think the connection that I'm making is this idea that there are some shifts that have to happen in order to enable asset-based listening and intentionality. One of the things that comes to mind is it really starts with even how you structure or imagine the task itself. If you're posing a problem, that problem isn't accompanied by a ‘Let me show you how to find the answer.' That actually allows kids to think about it. And there might be some divergent thinking, and that's actually a good thing. We want to understand how kids are thinking so we can respond to their thinking. Jessica Absolutely. Mike: That's a big contrast to saying, ‘Let me show you a task, let me show you how to do the task.' It's pretty difficult to imagine listening in that kind of context because really what you're asking them to do isn't thinking about how to solve it. Does that make sense? Jessica: It sure does. And I think for me, or a hunch that I would have, is that that also goes back to this whole idea of teaching and listening and maybe even assessing, if you will, for what we think kids need versus what they're bringing us versus their strengths. I see some connections there in what you're seeing. Mike: Let's talk about that a little bit.  Jessica: Sure.  Mike: Particularly assessment, I think when I was getting ready for this episode, that was the first thing that came to mind. I found myself thinking about previous PLC meetings or data meetings that I've had where even if we were looking at student work, I have to confess that I found myself thinking about the fact that we were looking at what kids didn't understand versus what they did understand. And I tried to kind of imagine how those conversations would've looked from an asset perspective. What would it look like to look at student work and to compare student work and think about assets versus thinking about what do I need to remediate in the type of thinking that I'm seeing?  Jessica: Uh-hm. I hear you there. I think it speaks to something that if we really want to build assetbased learning environments, we need to make some shifts. And I think one of those shifts is how we look at and use data and assessment. Primarily, I think we need to assess strengths and not needs. I heard that a lot as you were talking. How can we focus on assessing strengths and not needs? I say that to a lot of people and they're like, ‘What's the difference?' ( laughs ) Or, ‘That seems so small.' (laughs) But I think it winds up being a really big deal. If you think about it, trying to uncover needs perpetuates this idea that we should focus on what we see as the problem, which as I mentioned earlier, usually becomes the students or particular group of students. And I think it's very problematic because it sets us up as teachers to keep viewing students and their ideas as something that needs to be fixed as opposed to assets that we can build from or learn from in the classroom. Mike: Yeah. One of the other ideas that we've talked about on this podcast in different episodes is the idea of relevancy and engagement. And it strikes me that these ideas about listening to kids for assets are pretty connected to those ideas about relevancy and engagement. Jessica: Yeah, most definitely. I think, again, figuring out, we sometimes call this prior knowledge, but I look at it as when kids come to school, they bring with them their entire experience. So, what are those experiences and what from their eyes are things that are relevant and engaging and things in which they are passionate about themselves? And what do they know about those things? And how might they connect to what others in the classroom know about those things? And how can we, to borrow a term, how can we ‘mathematize' those things ( laughs ) in ways that are beneficial for individual kids and for the community of learners in our classroom? Like, how can we make those connections? I don't think we can answer those types of questions when we use assessment from this place of, ‘What don't students know?' Or ‘How can I get them to this particular place?' If that makes sense.  Mike: It does.  Jessica: I think we can ask those questions from a strengths-based lens that is curious about and passionate about really getting at, again, this whole experience that kids are bringing with them to school. And how we can use that to not only better students learning, but better the classroom community and maybe even better the mathematics that kids are learning in that community. Mike: Absolutely. Jessica: That's, that's interesting to think about. Mike: So, you started to address one of the questions that I was going to ask, which is, I'm imagining that there are folks who are listening to the podcast and they're just starting to think about what are some of the small steps or the small moves that I might make? What small steps would you advise folks to think about if they're trying to cultivate an asset-focused learning environment? Jessica: It's an interesting question, and I would suggest putting into practice some of the bigger ideas that we're getting at in asset-based learning environments themselves. And the first is, look at your own strengths. And when I say who I'm referencing there, it can be a teacher, it can be a school, it can be a district. If you look at your own strengths first, look at how your practices, your structures, your priorities are uncovering and using strengths. And if they're not, why not? Kind of looking at what's there, what capacities do we currently have that we can build on toward asset-based learning environments? And I think I would pair that with just a commitment to, to action, if you will. You know, start small, but start now. If you're a classroom teacher for instance—I tend to go to that ( laughs ), that grade size a lot ‘cause I still very much, uh, identify as a teacher—start with one task or one day, or part of a day, where you can slow down and use your instructional time to listen for kids' strength. Jessica: What brilliance and valuable ways of reasoning are they sharing with you? And what kinds of activity or task or environment did you need to put in place to uncover that? What did you learn about it? What did you learn about yourself in this process? So, we learn about kids and then we learn about ourselves. It becomes sort of this beautiful back and forth between students and teachers where we're all learning about ourselves and about each other. And I think that learning piece is the third thing that I would suggest. Again, going back to let's focus on learning. Let's celebrate our own learning as teachers and schools and districts and et cetera. Reframing your practices and structures will take time. That's OK. But learn to celebrate the steps that you and your communities are taking toward this asset-based model of instruction. And know that, again, you know, when we work to do that, we enable kids as mathematical thinkers and doers. So, we take that problem off kids, and we place it as a challenge in our instructional design, in our experiences and our interactions between teachers and students. So, I think for me, I would really invite folks to take those small steps, uncover your own strengths, learn to listen, and celebrate your own learning. Mike: Before we conclude the episode, I'm wondering if you can recommend any resources for someone who wants to continue learning about an asset-based approach to elementary mathematics? Jessica: Yeah. There [are] so many good examples of this. I think about my own learning as a teacher and a teacher of teachers, ( laughs ) and a researcher. And I think about things like cognitively guided instruction or the work of the The Dream Project in early childhood or even TODOS, where I know they provide a lot of wonderful examples of asset-oriented resources. I'll also do a shameless plug ( laughs ) for my, for my own book, you know, myself … Mike: Plug away!  Jessica: … ( laughs ) and Jenny Ainslie put together, called, ‘Designing Effective Math Interventions: An Educator's Guide to Learner-Driven Instruction.' And that book came off of a project that I did with, uh, National Science Foundation support, where we looked at kids' thinking over time and designed some tasks and activities to support conceptual understanding of fractions. But there are those. Alnd, and so, so many more. But those are the ones that come to mind immediately. Mike: That's fantastic. And we'll share links to those things with the podcast.  Jessica: Great. Mike: I want to thank you so much for joining us, Jessica, it's really been a pleasure talking to you. Jessica: Oh, thank you. It's been an immense pleasure talking with you as well. And thank you for inviting me. I really appreciate it. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation. dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2023 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Today I'm joined by dietitian and activist Jessica Wilson to discuss her new book It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies - a book that uplifts and celebrates Black women.In the episode we talk all about what drove Jessica to write the book and why we need to re-centre the experiences of Black women in our conversations about bodies and eating disorders. Jessica shares some of her critiques of intuitive eating and body positivity, and why white supremacy isn't the root of diet culture, but the whole damn tree. Plus, lots of Lizzo chat and great Snacks. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Jessica here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Jessica: And so, so quickly it became diet culture has racist roots. And that was the concession. Like, we need to talk about both of these things in anti-diet spaces. And the way that we're gonna do it is say that diet culture, you know, make it really like this tree analogy. Uh, and then just happens to have racist roots.Whereas I see white supremacy as the tree, it's what's sticking up out of the ground. It's what we can see. It's what is, you know, ruling and governing and decides, you know, who is able to fit under its branches. And I, you know, shrinking ourselves via, maybe that's the connection to diet culture there, is one way people are trying to seek shelter under this, you know, umbrella, this tree of white supremacy.INTROLaura: Hey team, and welcome to another episode of Season Two of Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter.I can't wait to share today's conversation with dietician and activist Jessica Wilson, who is also author of the forthcoming book, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies. I've linked to this book in the show notes because you need to go and pre-order it immediately. So in this conversation you'll hear Jessica and I discuss her new book. We'll talk about some of the ideas that she presents in the book, like how the body stories and narratives of Black women are raised and silenced in conversations about health, wellness, and body positivity. Jessica tells us about why if we distill difficulties with food down to just the thin ideal, we end up missing a lot of the complexity of how Black women are told to be figuratively and literally smaller as a matter of survival. We talk about how intuitive eating and rejecting diet culture don't address systemic issues like anti-fatness and anti-blackness. And they perpetuate the idea that we need to find individualistic solutions to systemic and structural violence. We talk about how white supremacy and anti-blackness isn't at the root of diet culture, but how, in Jessica's words, it's the whole damn tree. We talk about Lizzo and respectability, resilience and toxic body positivity, and loads and loads more. I think I'm gonna be unpacking this book for a long time to come, and I'm just so grateful to Jessica for writing it and I think as a white person, I mean, my opinion doesn't really matter here, but I feel like it's important to sit with the discomfort and the critiques and reflect on the ways that I've perpetuated some of these harmful systems and narratives. And if you're a white person in this space, whether for personal or professional reasons, you need to get this book and also sit with that discomfort.So again, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Stories of Black Women's Bodies, and it's available to pre-order now and it will be out on the 7th of February. The pre-order links are in the show notes. It goes without saying that we talk about themes around anti-blackness and enslavement and anti-fatness. So if you're a black person or a fat person, please take care of yourself if you choose to listen to this conversation.All right, before we get to today's conversation with Jessica, I just want to share that I'm gonna be running my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop again in February. It will be a 90 minute workshop. Completely online and you will be sent a copy of the recording afterwards to watch back. We'll talk about how kids' embodiment gets disrupted by diet culture, and what this has to do with feeding. We'll discuss why we need to throw the rule book out of the window and let them have ice cream before broccoli, and how we can help build trust in our kids to get what they need. I'll offer a framework that can help you feel more relaxed about mealtimes, whilst encouraging kids to have autonomy. We'll talk about how providing supportive structure can encourage children to remain in touch with their internal cues for hunger, satisfaction, pleasure, and fullness. And I'll cover how fussy eating develops, and other developmental milestones as well as tools to help support our kids through them. We'll talk about why cutting out sugar and saying things like just another bite can undermine kids' instincts around food, and we'll cover how to talk about food and bodies without harming. You'll be asked to fill out a short questionnaire about your specific situation ahead of time, and I'll try to tailor the content to the audience as much as possible. You'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters download. The workshop is suitable for grownups of kids of all ages, but best probably for kids under 12. Parents, whatever that means to your family, grandparents, teachers, nutrition professionals, and anyone else working with kids are more than welcome to join. It'll be on Tuesday, the 21st of February, also pancake day, that's seven o'clock and it's 15 pounds to join. Full details and booking information is in the show notes and the transcript for this episode.And just before we get to Jessica, just a quick reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader supported publication and podcast. I'd love to bring you more deeply researched pieces like my piece on clean eating and kids from a couple weeks ago, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor. So if you are in a position to become a paid supplier, then please consider it, it's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's not accessible to you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co uk, putting the word “snax” in the subject line, and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. You don't need to justify yourself. Just send that email with “snax” in the subject line and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription.Okay, team, here is my conversation with Jessica Wilson.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Jessica. I'd love it if you could tell us who or what you are nourishing right now.Jessica: That will be a big what. Laura, you're the first person that I get to talk to on a podcast and share that my book, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies will be out finally in 2023. So I am putting all of my energy and capacity into taking that book across the finish line.Laura: They don't tell you when you sign that book deal, that the publishing part, like the promoting, the marketing, all of that stuff is like more work than just like the writing part and the editing part, which is also a lot.Jessica: It is and at least you know like where you're going with that. You know where the book ends, begins and is in the middle, but then this nebulous like what is happening afterwards, that is also more work. Yeah. I was not prepared. I recommend somebody write a book about what it's like to write a book.Laura: I know we need that book.Jessica: Yeah. It never ends, it never slows down is the summary.Laura: But that's also a good sign. Like if they're keeping you busy with lots of marketing stuff, that's a good sign. And for good reason because I have been one of the very privileged people to read an advanced copy and I'm just, I'm so excited about this book. I think you've done such an amazing job of like dissecting these, like really difficult to, to digest and process ideas, but you've woven it, interwoven it with like humor, and like historical context and pop culture references and, and like, it just, it's like a pleasure to read it even though it's like really difficult to to read. So tell, can you tell the audience what the book is about and what it is that you're trying to say through this book?Jessica: I think that there were two parts of it, um, in my career as a dietician for, ooh, 15, I don't know, 17 years we'll say. Um, and even before that, the ways that we've talked about eating disorders, the ways that we've talked about eating always centers, like white folks experiences and the ways that eating disorders are supposed to present are how they present in very thin white girls and women.And like I was trained with all of that knowledge and it just was falling flat on its face when I was working with anybody else who wasn't thin, white and a cis woman in my work. And I also didn't have any other Black dietician colleagues, we only make up like 3% of the dietician field. And so I had no one to talk to about it.Um, like very lost reading Carolyn Costin's book, which again, you know, it's not anything new, it's just the same old centering of the same people. Um, so it wasn't like years or decades later that I realized that all of this needed to be in one place. I was having so many conversations, but how can we put all of this and give it context in a place and in a time where, you know, diet, culture and intuitive eating are becoming so much to the lexicon. And it still wasn't as complex as I really needed it to be.Laura: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a lot of nuance missing from those conversations and a lot of people missing from those conversations. Like in the book, you detail, you know how there are a few, like, I mean, it is like a few old white dudes in the eating disorder field that have written all the manuals, all the textbooks, all the protocols, all the psychometric testing everything,Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: to center their ideas about who gets an eating disorder, how it presents, and what the root causes are, which you completely obliterate in like the first couple of chapters.Jessica: The idea that it's all about beauty, right, is one that I for sure, you know, was trained in. It was everybody wanting to be thin and thin for beauty's sake. And because we have very thin models, like that's why people want to shrink themselves. Um, and yeah, just to be prettier and as we, you and I have discussed, and you know, other communities as well. Uh, folks of color, particularly black women in this book, can find a lot of survival and safety by making themselves both, uh, literally and figuratively smaller. So by shrinking, you know, in spaces where we're told we're too much, or even, you know, before we can be told we're too much, shrinking ourselves is one way to find that, you know, survival in white supremacy and then also of course for fat folks mitigating anti-fatness, um, by, you know, starving oneself is one way to find a bit more peace, even if it is not, you know, both sustaining and nourishing, I guess, for them.Laura: Yeah, it's a survival mechanism. It's a way of living in a world that is openly hostile to you and trying to make that as, as easy as possible for yourself. And even then, it's not easy. It's still not easy.Jessica: Yeah. And some people hear, you know, this conversation and I've had comments on Instagram that, you know, say, well, it sounds like you're saying it's okay to have an eating disorderLaura: Jesus fucking Christ.Jessica: And I'm like, no, I understand why you're saying that. I totally see why when I say I understand why you're starving yourself, to somebody who could be triggered to hear, I approve of you having an eating disorder.But yeah, that's not what is going on.Laura: That's a real red herring.Jessica: Yeah. The compassion, the understanding, and then also like eating disorder recovery is not going to make the things that they are, you know, somewhat solving by becoming smaller. They're not gonna make those things go, like magically go away.So how do we have a really, really hard conversation that talks about not just eating intuitively and recovering, but like the harms of society.Laura: Yeah. You're not saying that restriction, deprivation and trying to micromanage everything that you eat and trying to shrink your isn't unpleasant. You're saying, you're, it's not un-Jessica: or differently harmfulLaura: Yeah,  it's one way of trying to survive in a world that's really unsafe. And what you were saying is like these are the options availableJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: The, the options are try and reform, conform through restriction and deprivation and, uh, you know, through effectively self-harm or endure the, you know, more microaggressions or overt aggression um, because you, you're even farther from the white ideal, is that like. Jessica: And what society finds acceptable. There is no easy path. under white supremacy for those whose bodies don't align with what, you know, Puritan culture had in mind. And that we continue to value as a, as a society. So there really is no easy path forward. And all of us are really trying to do the best we can.Laura: And I think you kind of touched on this as well, but you talk about, in the book that, you know, rejecting diet culture and embracing anti-diet, intuitive eating approaches to eating is not the one, it's, it's not gonna save us. That these are oversimplifications of, you know, what, what needs to happen, what needs to change.Do you wanna kind of touch on that a little bit more and, and explain why, why you think that is?Jessica: I think you teed it up really nicely when we talked about the safety and survival that people can find in shrinking themselves. Intuitive eating in all of its, you know, forms, fashion and principles like is not going to make anti-fatness or anti-blackness go away. So even if I, you know, are open to start eating again, if I've been restricting and in deprivation and I want to embrace intuitive eating, the reasons that I had shrunk myself initially, like will arise, and intuitive eating is not going to be like that solution. I will still be experiencing the other things. Again, also, it's an individual solution to a societal problem. And I often find that, you know, me asking you, Laura, to participate in these like rituals, these um, principles, you know, really puts the onus on you as a person that needs to solve a problem that you did not create.Laura: Hmm.Jessica: And as a clinician, you know, that doesn't read well to me. And I also, um, I want people to think less about food because, you know, as you know, as we deprive ourselves, the amount of times and amount of time spent thinking about food goes up exponentially.And so I don't like to really organize people's existence around, you know, always thinking about their food, but also not having like specifics as a, as a field. In the book I talk about talking to three of my white eating disorder specialist, dietician friends, and I said, how are they talking about intuitive eating these days?And I say that all three of them, you know, took their hands like butterfly wings across their chest and like fluttered them a bit. That's how you'll know if you're eating intuitively, was the message. And I was like, what does that mean? What are we doing as a field if a solution to a societal problem involves both like rigidity and fluttering hands.It's just, it's not the solution we need to society.Laura: Look, you know, that I have been an advocate of intuitive eating, have been, you know, I've talked a lot about it. I've written two fucking books about intuitive eating. But as I read that part of your book, I like threw up in my mouth a little bit. I was like, not, not actually like that butJessica: Yes.Laura: But, I was just like, that's gross. That, it was just really upsetting to read that that's, what it's been reduced down to is just like this, like ethereal feeling , that that's what intuitiveJessica: When you know, you'll know . No,Laura: that's fucked up, it's really fucked up and I'm kind of, you know, becoming more and more aware of how, um, sort of evangelical people are about intuitive eating. And I hope that, something that I've kind of gotten across in my books is that if we are, you know, if, if you are trying to practice intuitive eating to the letter and you're so inflexible in those principles, that's a diet and that you are recreating, reproducing the same ways of thinking and patterns of of being as, as, as in a diet. So what, we're not actually achieving anything. And like you, like the goal is, is to not think that much about food apart from like, okay, I need to eat something. What do I have available to me? Or do I need something in like,Jessica: Do I have enough groceries? Have I packed a snack?Laura: This is really important. Like, it's very important to bring snacks.Jessica: But yeah. Um, in the religiosity. I fully agree. And, see the connection again with the idea that we should be only eating for biological reasons, is another way the religiosity flows in there. Because, you know, I made the connection, my boss made the connection between that and the like, only have sex for procreation. Um, and just like wear these, like deny yourself pleasure, deny yourself, you know, so many things unless it's in a religious context and then you're able to have sex or then you're able to enjoy food if it's only for biological reasons. So never, and have pleasure with food or sex. So yeah, I definitely see the evangelism and religiosity forLaura: It is, and there's also just like this, I mean, I was literally shoving toffee in my mouth as I was reading that section, like, which is just funny. But, yeah, there is this distortion and I think that the way that that intuitive eating is, is talked about and how it's been popularized and, and this, because it's, it's come from the intuitive eating book is, as you say, this denial of pleasure, this, um, denial of our appetite and the fact that we eat outside of these very like narrow, very specific, parameters and that it, like, it's fine if you like are passing a window like a bakery and you see something and you're like, that looks good. I wanna eat that. Like, yeah. To, to just reduce hunger down to, or reduce eating down to only, only eating when you're hungry is, is ludicrous. But it, it's also really harmful because, uh, you know, I've, I've been in the room with clients who are like, but I, you know, when do I eat? And like the mental acrobatics of it all is a lot.There's, yeah, there's this other thing that I've seen happening with intuitive eating that makes me so deeply uncomfortable is how it's just become this like, really, it's like girl boss feminism, but for food. Do you know what I mean? Jessica: Tell me more. No, I love this. Where's this going?Laura: I think I maybe got this idea from Toi Smith who, I don't know if you know Toi, a Black woman who, she talks a lot about capitalism and the effects of capitalism on our lives. She has a lot of great things to say, but she talks about the commodification of wisdom that is just innate to humans, right?Jessica: Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah,Laura: Like it's something that we kind of know in our bodies and how white women in particular sort of repackage this and try and sell it you at a premiumJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: and like that's what I feel like intuitive eating has become. And I see this a lot happening with child feeding, right? Like, we're going way off topic. We will come back to your book, I promise, but like, um, like the weaning industrial complex,Jessica: Oh,Laura: right?Jessica: yeah.Laura: I don't need to take a £200 course to teach my child how to eat. Like humans have been doing that since the beginning time, right?Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: And like, what the fuck, what am I paying you to tell me how to like cut up a piece of food? Like that's like innate knowledge and that we have as humans and it should be freely available to everyone, right?Jessica: Yeah. Hmm. The weaning industrial complex. Laura: Don't get me started cuz I have a lot of feelings about it, Jessica. But it's that kind of, you know, like, like eating is something so fundamental and so in, you know, inherent to our existenceJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: Why are we paying to learn how to do that?Jessica: Definitely.Laura: Okay. I've gone way off, off piste here, but let's, let's bring it back to the book and, and I think we've kind of like touched on this a little bit in different ways, but I, I wanna ask you a bit more directly, like, you've talked a lot about this on social media as well, and in fact you gave a really, I think, helpful analogy that I'll ask you to share in just a second. But since the sort of social reckoning that wasn't in 2020 it's become cool, it's become trendy in the anti diet HAES space to talk about how anti-blackness and white supremacy are at the root of diet culture.Jessica: Right?Laura: Let it rip. JessicaJessica: Um, let's see. I'm not sure like chicken or the egg. I don't know if you have that expression in the UK or not. Um,Laura: That one translates.Jessica: Okay. I'm not sure which one came first cuz uh, there was a, it was a very short period of, uh, time during which people all of a sudden, in, you know, eating disorder community and dietician community, um, who were like talking about diet culture. And then all of a sudden in 2020, um, all of a sudden, you know, people are talking about race in ways that have not been done before. And so it was like this, how do we squeeze in this very important conversation about racism into this conversation as a field that we've already been having.And so, what, you know, Black Lives Matter. What Black folks, what our Black colleagues like me and Alicia McCulloch, you know, we're talking about bodies and the harm that white supremacy has caused for,Laura: mm-hmm. Jessica: ever, and anti-diet spaces, we're talking about the harms of dieting forever. I see that the origins of white supremacy, you know, are really what are impacting, like directly impacting both anti-fatness and anti-blackness in the US at least.And so, so quickly it became diet culture has racist roots. And that was the concession. Like, we need to talk about both of these things in anti-diet spaces. And the way that we're gonna do it is say that diet culture, you know, make it really like this tree analogy. Uh, and then just happens to have racist roots.Um, whereas I see white supremacy as the tree, um, it's what's sticking up out of the ground. It's what we can see. It's what is, you know, ruling and governing and decides, you know, who is able to fit under its branches. And I, you know, shrinking ourselves via, maybe that's the connection to diet culture there, is one way people are trying to seek shelter under this, you know, umbrella, this tree of white supremacy.Laura: And you give some examples in your book and I think that they're really helpful for illustrating what you mean because, and I'm speaking for myself here, like when it, it takes a long time to get your head around diet culture as a concept anyway, right? WhenJessica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Laura: been coming from like the, the, the weight normative paradigm that you and I were both in. Right? So like that, it's kind of like a head fuck just to even get your head around that begin with, but then take it to the next level, which actually this isn't even diet culture, this is something else entirely.Jessica: Right.Laura: Like, and, and maybe this is just me, being, like this is my ignorance or my privilege showing, but it's taken me a while even after reading, like Fearing the Black Body and reading Deshaun's work to like get to this point.So I'm just wondering if some examples, they were helpful for me reading them in your book. So I'm just wondering if it'd be helpful in other people's books. What am I saying? It would be helpful to illustrate for other people.Jessica: Well, I think people might love to hear the ones that resonated with you, you know? Cause they probably share a lot of your experiences.Laura: I think, I think both the stories of Mia and LexiJessica: Okay.Laura: Were really illustrative. Um, so I don't know. Which one would you like to tell?Jessica: We can talk about Lexi since she's now, you know, a US transplant into the Uk. Laura: I feel like I need to call her up and be like, Hey, should grab a coffee ? Jessica: Maybe she could be on your podcast, you know?Laura: I'm sure she could. I know she's been on your podcast and I need to go back and listen to that. But yeah, get her on the podcast.Jessica: Yeah. So gymnasts from age three, and really enjoy doing all of the gymnastics events. So there's floor, there's the uneven bars, there's beam, and then there's floor. And within the gymnastics community, the idea is that the beam balance beam and the uneven bar bars are like the elegant events. And inherently in gymnastics, you know, uh, only the white gymnasts are able to be elegant.Any and all black gym gymnasts are assumed to be more muscular, more powerful, and they're gonna be great on the floor and great on the vault. And Lexi wanted to do all of the events and was good at them. Uh, but, you know, saw that the thinner, whiter girls were getting higher scores. So being an athlete and very driven, she's like, I know how to be thinner and get, you know, therefore get better scores.So just, you know, started participating, you know, In deprivation, in restriction, in laxative use, um, in the like cleansing, cayenne, lemon water situation and eventually purging. But there was no, like, she was never like, I want to feel better about my body. You know, she was never fat. She just wanted to be metaphorically and physically smaller, to be more palatable to the judges, predominantly white judges who were judging her.She was never like, you know, I'm worried about the thin ideal. It just wasn't about the same stuff, you know, that we are told about diet culture and what diet culture means. Um, it just wasn't that.Laura: Yeah. So, yeah. In the eating disorder literature, all we're ever offered is, you know, people are trying to shrink their bodies because it brings them in closer proximity to the thin ideal. And that's the apex of human being like, that's all we're aiming for.Jessica: It's because they feel bad about their bodies.Laura: Yeah. Which we do get that message to an extent. But what you are saying is it's more than that. It's a lot deeper than that. It's a lot more harmful than that. And it's rooted in the origins of the American, well America as a country and chattels and enslavement, um, of Black people.And, and it goes all the way back to that and the, the, like we were saying at the beginning, the safety that is afforded to people who have closer proximity to whiteness. Is that like a fair summary?Jessica: Yeah, I think that you helped me out, uh, realizing that I had just jumped in with Lexi and gymnasts and not taken it back to enslavement, um, hundreds of years ago. Right? So the depiction of Black women then, you know, as strong as powerful, basically because they were laborers either out in the field or in the house, but just the constant valuation of Black women for their labor, um, continues today.And so, yeah, Black gymnasts are used for their power and their strength in their events. And so like, it's been hundreds of years, but the narratives of Black women are still there and they're ones that we did not ask for. So that's how I say, you know, the body narratives have always been written by white supremacy in a way that Black women will never, you know, have access to, you know, a validating body story unless it's rewritten.Laura: And what you just said there about, um, you know, this, the story of, of Black women's bodies being about power, being about strength. That was, again, if we think, think of it in historical terms because they had no choice, right? That was the, literallyJessica: They were put to work.Laura: But in the book, you kind of bring this into a modern context as well, which, um, and, and you talk about it through the lens of, um, resilience.And, and so if it's okay, I wanna just read a short passage, um, from the book. And so you say Black women often take on the false idea that we have superhuman strength and resilience in the meantime, sacrificing our physical and mental health, trying to make ourselves fit into a society that will never accept us. This replicates centuries of lacking body autonomy for Black women of being denied agency in how we tend to our bodies.Jessica: Yeah.Laura: And I think like this really, like who hit a nerve for me? Um, not hit a nerve in like a negative way, but it likeJessica: Sure.Laura: it made an impression. I really had to think about it. Um, and so sort of, I mean, did you want to speak to this point any? Jessica: Yeah, what stood out to me and then I was able to bring up at other times with the autonomy here and how conforming indeed can bring back some of what has been lost in people's writing our own stories. But at what cost, right? Yeah. So, Indeed it is hard. it was hard to write. It's hard to listen to. But again, knowing it's important, which I think at the beginning you'd said that I, you know, had wrapped in some, uh, humor, often dry humor, pop culture, um, a lot of, you know, really personal stories so that folks could, you know, have some balance and really get to the end of it, the book, rather than, you know, just deciding it's hard and not finishing. Yeah. But did the passage or what stuck out to you in the, in the passage?Laura: Well, I think it was kind of more, I guess I wanna bring it back to another part of the, this same chapter where you're talking about resilience, and you sort of, without like making a song and dance about it, you, you kind of differentiate between resilience that is embodied and innate and inherent versus resilience that is performed as an act of survival through, um, through the, through autonomy being forcibly removed, violently and forcibly removed.And, I think that there, like, it just made me think about how there is a lot of stereotyping about Black wo women being strong and, um, you know, having to as you say in the book, like literally and figuratively, having to clean up everybody else's mess, um, and carrying like so much for the rest of us.I suppose it brought me back to just like, I just felt so, like, I just felt really sad, like really, really sad that that's, um, you know, I was thinking about some of my Black, my friends who are Black women and, um, just yeah, how this, it was just really upsetting to, to, to think about, just everything that's expected of Black women and everything that they're carrying. But then there was also this most, this more kind of optimistic, hopeful piece in like, resilience that's embodied, that's like innate. That's just that, that's something that, um, you know, is developed through community and through, um, Black joy and some of the things that you go on to, you know, some of them were , uplifting things that you talk about in the book. So, yeah. Did you mean to like draw that distinction between the two pieces or is that just, am IJessica: I love how, no, which is great because I have more, um, yeah, language. That's super helpful and a great reflection. I think in that chapter tI alk about like, my needing to have been performing resilience in particular situation, and I just couldn't, and, you know, therefore I was then, you know, disposable to the organization at the time. Um, because as you know, you know, folks with chronic illnesses and other things, like there is just a max. And at some point, like, my body just can't fulfill the demands of society for me to, you know, put everything else, uh, before myself, et cetera. Sometimes I actually have to put myself first. Though yeah, not being able to do that performance is, you know, both like considered and ingrained as a failure for me. You know? And I assume other Black women, like we are known for our strength, you know, you can always rely on us. Um, and when, you know, we cannot be relied upon for Black girl magic, like that's devastating.Laura: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Jessica: Yeah. But then the other, yes, the innate resilience or the, Hmm. I wouldn't say tools gained through community, but maybe the, maybe it is. A friend of mine called joy as a weapon, the way I was writing about it as like a way to weaponize the, um, assumptions made about us and our bodies, and I loved that. So yes, resilience in two different ways.Laura: Okay. So I mentioned that you weave in some most excellent pop culture references and a piece that I enjoyed reading was your thoughts on Lizzo and respectability and all the shit that went down, around about that. So, summarize what you talk about in that chapter.Jessica: I start the chapter by talking about Lizzo's uh, decision to eat smoothies that she made at home. Uh, apples and peanut butter, protein bars, tea, something, pickles. Yes. That's. So it was smoothies and those snacks for 10 days and she had said, you know, two of us. 2020 had been a really shitty year. And, know, her stomach was real fucked up. And so, you know, she decided to go on what she called a smoothie detox. And the internet lost its mind. It was like when it's like you wake up to like an actual news story on social media, but this was like Lizzo is, is drinking smoothies was the actual news storyLaura: A like slow news day when you think about it, but like theJessica: That's probably why. yeah, that's actually probably true. Uh, it was in the period between Thanksgiving and, and New Year's maybe. Um, so yeah, the internet had big thoughts and it was one of those times where I was able to see those who were, you know, triggered, um, and probably weren't doing so well in their own, you know, mental health and recovery that got very, very triggered. One particularly, um, Jameela Jamil, who's over UK and in US. Yeah. Posted her own story of like engaging in some sort of like detox situationLaura: Oh, is that who it was? I was reading your book and I was like, come on, you coward name herJessica: Well,Laura: But you did on the,Jessica: She, yeah, she's mentioned ambiguously. Um, but yes, a whole cautionary tale of I almost died doing a cleanse. Don't do cleanses. Um, and you know, it was very clear for her, uh, Jameela Jamil that, you know, she had done so in the context of her eating disorder in order to lose weight.And I was like, but wait, did Lizzo say anything about wanting to lose weight? Like, I didn't catch that. Like I went back. Saw what she was eating. There were solid foods. Like, it was like portrayed as this weird, cleansy. I don't know what like the assumptions made about cleanses are, but there was like actual food there.I was watching it, it may have, may have not been, you know, a meal amount of food, but like, I still didn't have anything to say to somebody who's just eating food on a regular basis.Laura: Well, the thing is like, I think this is where you're going anyway, but none of our fucking business, right? It is ultimately, like if you were her, if you were her dietician, you'd probably have some things to say to her, but you're not. And neither am I. Jessica: I'm not, yeah. And my, and it probably even wouldn't, like 10 days of whatever it is that you're doing, it's gonna be like, there's, there's not much that would happen in 10 days that you wouldn't be just very hungry about and need to, you know. Laura: I'm just gonna say if you are in active eating disorder recovery, please do not do this. Like, just to cover our backs, but like for, people who are like, generally fine, it's not gonna do any harm for that length. It's not gonna feel great, but it's not gonna,Jessica: Yeah. I might end up hungry at the end of 10 days is like what I envisioned was gonna happen. But yeah, the people who had big thoughts and big feelings, I could definitely see like them, like they're emotional responses, um, coming from not ever, you know, wanting to see somebody go on a cleanse, but not only anybody go on a cleanse, but Lizzo. Lizzo a fat Black woman who takes up both literal, you know, metaphorical and actual space. Um, who everybody who would, you know, we looked up to Lizzo for her, you know, magical ability to actually love her fat body when you know everybody in America and Western society tells fat Black women that you know, that they should be ashamed of their bodies. Lizzo, was like one person everyone could point to, to feel good about their own bodies, like all of a sudden, yeah. Lizzo became this like body positivity mammy for a lot of people. Something she had never asked for. She is a performer, a musician, a flutist, and she, I assume, did not set out to, you know, have people put things onto her body that she did not ask for. She's not there for anybody but herself. And so by Smoothie Gate, like people are devastated. They, you know, are practicing self-care. They're talking to their therapist about this thing that Lizzo did to them, like it was,Laura: Were taking it as a personal betrayal, weren't,Jessica: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. posting, like, this is what you can do for self-care during this tough time. And all along, like Lizzo said, nothing about wanting to lose weight. And never did.Laura: And it kind of, it goes back to what we were talking about before around resilience and, and Black women, like people putting everything on Black women that they did not ask to carry. They don't to carry all your trauma responses and, and be your poster child for body positivity whenJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: you've never claimed that for yourself.Jessica: Right. It really, again, just like you said, is indicative of just something else that goes on, like subconsciously for all of us and the ways that yes, Black women are meant to carry a lot more than just our own body stories and experiences.Laura: And I think it's kind of this like, and this is part of what you're saying in, in the book, and I'm kind of extrapolating a little bit here, but, the, you know, body positivity as it was originally conceived, came out of the fat liberation movement, which was as we are, we all know now, started by fat, Black, Jewish, and queer folks. But it's become this depoliticized movement that has been co-opted and taken over by, as you say in the book, like it could, you know, you've got like, I don't know, shapewear companies using hashtag body positive and like whatever diet companies and yeah, using that moniker. And then just the kind of the, the expectations and the pressures that come with, you know, that, that label that should love yourself, and that there's like, there's this great quote that I think you used for, is it Nicole Byers? That that talks like what, why do we need a name for just existing in our bodies.Jessica: Right. For not hating them.Laura: for not, yeah, yeah.Jessica: Yeah. We don't need to name, yeah, a name for not hating a part. She, I think she says a part of our bodies, because life's already hard. Why do we ? But yeah, that's, she also doesn't identify, yes, as body positive because of that reason.Laura: Yeah.Jessica: Having a name for just not hating yourself seems wild.Laura: Yeah. It, it really is when you stop to think about it in, in those terms. And, and like at the same time, you know, as, as some of the folks that you spoke to through the book, sort of say like, well, it was a gateway to fat liberation. Um, the, the problem is that like 90% of the people, more than that, that engage in body positivity don't go any further. And then becomes this like neoliberal self-improvement project, projectJessica: Yeah. And it that actually, made me think about that. Earlier you said like, wasn't, became less political, but I feel like people think that body politics, like in this, in just body positivity is like political. If you have no politics, like if you're not politically engaged, like this can seem so radical to you, even though it means nothing.It doesn't stand for anything, you know? So it's like, it's like, uh, composting as a politic, but like body from, you know, a politic from body positivity when it doesn't stand for anything. Yes. Neoliberalism and just this like making something out of nothingLaura: Yeah, this individualistic self-care, you know, problem that it's up to you to solve when, like, as we've discussed, the, the roots are social and systemic. The issues are, issues are social and systemic. Yeah.Jessica: But just feel better about your body. That's, that's the goal.Laura: It's all just a big distraction tactic. Though isn't it, likeJessica: Yes. point. Always is.Laura: Always, like it's all of these systems when we, when we strip them to the bare bones, are just to keep us, you know, distracted, to keep us separated, to keep us like out of community with each other. Because if we actually start to talk to each other about these things, we, we will fucking revolt and , um, the ruling class don't want that. So that doesn't serve capitalism we revolt.Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: soJessica: keep us anxious, to keep us buying and spending money on whatever the next beauty industrial complex situation has going for us. Yeah. And just spend spending money onLaura: keep us in scarcity. Yeah.Jessica: not doing enough. Don't have enough,Laura: And feeling like the only way out of that is through dominion of other people.Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: Okay. On that fun note, Jessica, I would love to know in amongst all of the media circus and just general chaos that is publishing a book, who or what is nourishing you right now?Jessica: I have been enjoying two different podcasts. Vibe Check from three gay Black guys that, you know, talk about what's keeping their vibes right, politics and pop culture. And I really love the banter between them. It's smart, it's sassy. Another by Britney Luce, It's Been a Minute, also an as an NPR podcast. And I don't know what folks thought the show was going to be, but it is 100% black, 100% black women focused, and I love it. And then I would say 2023, I am really hoping to become a better baker. And so I've just been telling people that I am, uh, somebody was planning an event and I said, I'm a baker, uh, what can I bring? You know, I'm just throwing that out there. Mm-hmm. , Laura: Love, I just love this, like fake it till you make it. AndJessica: Exactly. I'm a baker. What can, what can I bring you? And I mean, I'll still bring it, uh, whether or not it'll be edible, beautiful, it's something else entirely. But you know what, I'm a baker. So,Laura: What are you baking specifically? What have you been baking?Jessica: I think my next, uh, baking attempt will be to construct something. I didn't get to do any, like gingerbread construction situations. So I might find like a castle, um, and make one . I know.Laura: I was expecting you to say some like, but you wouldn't know what this is in in the States, but like Victoria sponge cake or like something really basic.Jessica: Do know those. Um, to make it, I like glitter a lot too. Uh, so, you know, there's a lot of opportunity to decorate a castle with glitter.Laura: That's, I want a picture of that one. I'm sure you'll put it on social media, right? Um, I still have Instagram, deleted at the moment. I reinstalled it on my phone yesterday to check a message. Um, and then immediately deleted. I'm not ready for this. I can't do it yet.Um, but yeah. Okay. So baking is keeping you afloat and so are these podcasts. I think the vibe check one, I just came across that the other day because I think Samantha, um, Erby like, name dropped that in the newsletterr the other day. I think. I think it's that one. But, um, okay. So I dunno if I've maybe confused you by asking you that question because at the end of every episode, I always ask what you are snacking on right now, which is your recommendation thing. Did you just tell me your snacks?Jessica: Yes. The things that I wouldLaura: Your recommendations? Yeah. Okay, so back, wait. First of all, I'll tell you my snacks and then I'll ask you what's nourishing you.Jessica: I love this. We just, Laura: We're just flipping, reversing it here. So my snack is a literal snacks that my brother just sent me a huge box of shit from Trader Joe's, which I know is not like exciting to you.Jessica: It's Trader Joe's!Laura: But we don't have that here.Jessica: It is a primary point of conversation when I'm over there.Laura: I just, okay. I need to compose myself. Cause I'm very excited about this box of snack of snacks. Like the, he sent me the, the Thai chili lime cashews.Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yes.Laura: There's like some chocolate, coconut, granola. There are like cookies in there. There are, okay, this isn't from Trader Joe's, but there are birthday cake Oreos, which are,Jessica: Yes.Laura: Oh my god.You don't understand. They have here, but they're not the same. And they cost like 10 pounds for a packet. I'm not paying 10 pounds for Oreos. That's ridiculous. Um, but I will get my brother to them all the way from America, um, on his dollars. And, um, what else is in there? Oh, like everything but the bagel seasoning the everything the bagel nuts.The, like, there's so much stuff in there. I'm really, oh, the, there's like, um, peanut butter stuffed pretzels.Jessica: Yep. That was gonna be the next one I asked you about. Mm-hmm.Laura: There's so much cool stuff in there. I'm very excited. So yeah, my thing is Trader Joe's snacksJessica: Absolutely.Laura: that you get your brother to shipJessica: Yeah, if he didn't send you cookie butter, um, highly recommend you put that on the next list.Laura: I think I did ask him for that and I haven't seen it there. So yeah, there's gonna a, a follow up, but yes. Oh my And there are nut bars. They're really good as well, and they're like cheap to everywhere else. Everything at Trader Joe's relatively cheap, so that's, I'm very excited to go and dig into that package. I literally got it right before we started recording, so,Jessica: Oh, that's excellent.Laura: Yeah. And if anyone else wants to send me a care package from the States, anyone inJessica: From Trader Joe's, specificallyLaura: Just like, just go in, do a supermarket sweep and send. Um, okay. So now we will go back and I will ask you who or what is nourishing you right now?Like what is keeping you afloat?Jessica: Hmm. I'm like, how long is this list? It's like, is it the acknowledgements in my book right now? That seems, Hmm. Laura: It can just be like, it can be your spouse or your dogs or like,Jessica: Yeah. Um, I know. I'm like, well, definitely.Laura: Just so many people.Jessica: I know 100% dogs. Um, I will say Amy, who made a meal of tater tots, that's something else that I find is not as popular over on,Laura: We don't have them, but I also had like a bad hangover experience with tater tots. So,Jessica: Okay, a meal of tater tots and other things, um, like layered on top, but also a signature cocktail for me and my book that had, oh, let's see. It was Gin and Prosecco and marionberry and rosemary. It was very sweet. So I would say that specifically in that moment of getting together and like recognizing that this book is, you know, being birthed and is coming out, that was a very special moment.So I will hold onto that one for a bit. Laura: Oh, I love that. Since we're talking about the book, do you wanna share the name and like I will link in the show notes, obviously to where people can get it, but do you wanna share the name of the book and then where people can find out more about you and your work?Jessica: Sure. The title is, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies. And there is a UK Amazon link for it now. You can find more about the book on my personal website. Jessica Wilson, ms r d um, dot com. Instagram has tons about the book and about washing legs. I'm over at Jessica Wilson msr, um, Instagram and Jessica Wilson Rd on Twitter. But most of the fun, the joy and the silliness is, is over on Instagram.Laura: Thank so much Jessica. We'll put all the links to where to find you and how to get ahold of the book in the UK and the US in the show notes for this episode so people can check it out. And congratulations on birthing a book into the world. It's so exciting and I can't wait for people to get it into their hands.Jessica: Thanks so much, Laura. This was really fun.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. 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What you'll learn in this episode:   What it means to be a personal jeweler, and how Jessica helps repurpose people's unworn jewelry How Jessica came up with the idea for her podcast, Inside the Jewel Vault What pieces Jessica would include in her fantasy jewel vault Why wearing jewelry connects us to our humanity Why Jessica is creating a gender-fluid jewelry brand   About Jessica Collins   Jessica Cadzow-Collins fell in love with jewelry and gems aged 18, whilst working as an intern at Sotheby's, and trained as a professional gemmologist. For over 30 years since then, she's held senior roles in fine jewelry at luxury retailers such as Harrods, Garrard and Asprey where she helped all kinds of amazing clients with their precious pieces, from tiaras to engagement rings, all over the world.     Jessica is now a personal jeweler. She started a business, Jessica May Jewels, to help people find their dream designs and remodel their unworn pieces. Using her high-jewelry know-how, she creates bespoke pieces that don't compromise on luxury, quality, service, value or ethics.    Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional Resources: Instagram Facebook LinkedIn Website Jessica's article on the Koh-i-Noor 'Curse or Blessing'   Transcript:   When Jessica Cadzow-Collins isn't designing jewelry, repurposing her clients' old jewelry, or developing her own line of jewelry, she's talking to people about jewelry on her podcast, Inside the Jewel Vault. A lifelong jewelry lover, Jessica joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it means to be a personal jeweler; what she would include in her fantasy jewel vault; and why wearing jewelry is distinctly human. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Jessica Cadzow-Collins speaking to us from London. She is the founder and designer of Jessica May Jewels. She is also the creator and host of the podcast Inside the Jewel Vault. Welcome back.    If you're at a party, how do you describe what you do? If somebody says, “What do you do,” what do you say?   Jessica: At the moment, I say I'm a personal jeweler and I can make your jewelry wearable or make it new or make the jewels of your dreams. That's what I say if I'm asked what I do. [REPEAT OF ENDING OF PART ONE]   Sharon: What's kept your attention about jewelry for decades? What's kept your attention?    Jessica: It's the connections. It's the story. It's everything that ripples below a piece of jewelry. It could be a treasured gift that reminds you of the people that gave it to you. It could remind you that you're loved, that somebody loves you for it. For instance, I wear my signet ring my father gave me. Actually, it's not a proper signet ring. You can see it's just a pinky ring, but that was me being different when I was 18. Every time I put that on in the morning, I think of my father and my connection with him. It could be a piece you bought yourself to celebrate an achievement or a promotion, something that celebrates a brighter goal or future you're dreaming of.    There are all of these things connected with a piece of jewelry, and when I'm involved in creating that piece or selling that piece or finding that piece for somebody, I feel a little part of that story as well. That's what I love. The other thing that is so special about jewelry is it's not like a piece of fashion or an accessory. These are pieces that endure, that will travel with you all your life. Then one day it will travel along with somebody else, which I think is so special.   Sharon: It is special, especially when you look at an estate piece or an antique piece that's been owned by several people. You want to know the story behind it.   Jessica: Oh, absolutely. I love those stories. Sometimes I've recreated them into a piece. For instance, for one lady, I had three diamond rings that had been worn by her grandmother, her mother and herself in her previous marriage. She wanted to combine all of these symbols of strength, these symbols of strong women in her life, and turn them into a ring for her right hand. It was a power ring.    That was a wonderful thing to do. Each gem was a different style of cut. Her grandmother's ring was an old mine cut, a rather brilliant cut. Then she had an oval cut in her own engagement ring, so they're all totally different. I created a rough mount around the ring for her, which was really unusual and really suited her. She was from this strong line of Caribbean women. She was a wonderful client to work with. All my clients are wonderful because they have their own stories and their own futures as well. I love my job, as you can tell.   Sharon: I can tell. Do you ever feel stymied, like, “What am I going to do with this?”    Jessica: Yes, sometimes I do. What I tend to do is say, “Look, I need a week or so and I'll get back to you.” When you've got a little problem, and you let it sit there and play around in your mind, quite often—I don't know about you, Sharon, but I find just before I go to sleep is the time when my brain sends me all the pictures of things I should be designing or need to design. That's my good time. Quite often I will see the piece in my mind's eye. Then I just need to sketch it and work on it with the CAD artist I use and we're off.   Sharon: Have you ever presented something and people said, “That's not really what we had in mind”? Or do people not know what they have in mind?    Jessica: Yeah, people are different, aren't they? Some people are really good at taking a sketch off the page and seeing it and playing with it in their mind's eye and turning it into 3D. Other people, you have to do a full-on set of renders of different pieces, which is brilliant because 3D technology is so good now. I can send them a 3D CAD so they can touch the screen on their phone.    In fact, I've done that for an engaged couple. He wanted to propose to his girlfriend, and we didn't have time to go around and find the right diamond and sketch out the right mount and everything. So, we adapted a CAD sketch I already had and tweaked it to make it into something he thought she would want. He proposed with it on his phone. That was the best; I loved that. It was a digital proposal, and she said yes. He didn't need to change it that much. That was certainly a wonderful way of doing things. You see, anything is possible.   Sharon: It is possible. I like that term, digital proposal. I bet that's a term you can coin and do something with. I've never heard it before. Can you imagine life without jewelry?   Jessica: No, Sharon, I can't. I'm sure you know this, Sharon, but humans are the only beings on the planet that have draped themselves in things they find attractive. If you go back all the way to early man's beginnings, 90,000 years ago in the Blombos Caves in South Africa, you find pieces of jewelry that are made from shells from the coast a few miles away from where the cave system was. It's a deeply human need, I think, to carry something that gives you good luck, like an amulet, or makes you special. It could just be because these people find something lovely on a beach and think it's beautiful, and they want to carry it with them. It's such a human thing. I personally can't imagine a life without some sort of jewelry.   Sharon: Do you think people want jewelry, or do they come to you because they want something valuable or sentimental? What do you see on your podcast?   Jessica: The most valuable vault from the podcast was by Josie Goodbody. She had the Red Moussaieff Diamond in there, which is probably one of the most expensive gems on the planet. Arguably, there are some in the Smithsonian Museum in Washington that could be also. I've also been lucky enough to go around the treasury in the Kremlin. That's closed to westerners now, obviously. That was a staggering display of gems. There are some stupendous pieces in people's choices. That's the fun of it; it's a game. The podcast is a game. Select six pieces you would put into a fantasy jewel vault. I wonder, Sharon, what you would put in.   Sharon: I don't know. That's an interesting question. I would throw the question back at you. You ask everybody in the world what's inside their jewel vault.    Jessica: I haven't asked you, but there you go. I have now asked you, so maybe you can tell me what you want. I definitely like the Moussaieff Red as well. Alisa Moussaieff was my boss for a short while, and she's an amazing connoisseur of gems and the very best of the best you can find. Goodness knows what she's got in her own personal safe, her private safe. I love color. I love diamonds, so when you put the two together in a spectacular large stone like the five carats the Moussaieff Red is, that would be something else. I've never seen it in the flesh, but I'd love to.   I think the other piece I would want is the Koh-i-Noor, the diamond that's in the Queen Consort's crown. We're going to see a lot of that in May during the coronation here in Britain. The Koh-i-Noor has a fantastically tangled, bloody history. It really is the gem of kings. I would love to have it, but not the way it was cut by Prince Albert in 1852. I'd want it cut in the traditional Indian rose style so it would look like a mountain. So, there's those two.   There was a sea green diamond I bought early on in the 90s, before colored diamonds were a big thing. It was very inexpensive at the time. It was probably around 10,000£ or so, and I knew I could sell it for a better price in New York. I flew with it over the Atlantic to New York to sell it there. It was so valuable we had to insure it. Our insurers wouldn't let me travel without an armed bodyguard when I got to New York. Remember, New York was quite a scary place in the 90s, especially if you were young and female and carrying a large amount of goods. My insurance company insisted on having an armed bodyguard, so I asked my friends in the trade how to find an armed bodyguard when I went to New York with this diamond. They said, “Phone the NYPD. There's always an off-duty detective who can act as an armed bodyguard.” I did that, and when I flew over with this sea-green diamond and landed at the customs desk on entry, there were these bodyguards who looked just out of central casting. These off-duty NYPD officers were chewing their gum with their hats on and holding a paper cup for coffee. I got into their car and we set off. I said, “So, which one of you is packing the piece?” The smaller of the two said, “I'm not, but he is.” My bodyguard had an armed bodyguard.    So, I left the sea-green diamond there in New York. I flew back without any bodyguards, but that was so much fun. The sea-green diamond was the most beautiful color. It sold for a fortune. I would love that stone because it's my fantasy. I would love to have that stone. So, those are my three.   Sharon: That sounds gorgeous.    Jessica: It was the most beautiful color, quite indescribable, really. Sea green is the best I can come up with. It was quite a big stone. It was just under five carats and a radiant cut. It was just gorgeous.   Sharon: That's an interesting question. I was thinking about what I would choose. I wouldn't choose very many gems. I love color, but if I think about my own jewelry, I'm not a gem person. I think somebody once said, “What can you say about a gem? You could say it's big; it's large, it's this cut; it's that cut. Where is the artistry?”   Jessica: I know what you mean, yes. That's a good point. There is artistry in how you would set it. For me, it would be fun to look at this stone and think of all the things you could do with it.    Sharon: Have you ever had somebody come and say, “Just do whatever you want with this jewel. I don't like any of the jewels in this jewel box. Just do what you want. My mother-in-law gave me this stuff and I just don't like it. Do whatever you want, however you think it should be”?   Jessica: Yes, sometimes ladies say that. More often than not, there will be something obvious you could do with it—well, something obvious to me. Probably not obvious to them at all, because they look at me and say, “Can we make a pair of earrings out of this brooch?”    But I had a lovely customer just last month who had a number of antique pieces, including a big diamond brooch she never wore because most people don't wear brooches anymore. She also had a big cluster ring she never wore either. There's no money in these big brooches, so I literally cut up the brooch into a pair of detachable drop earrings. Out of the cluster ring, we made a negligée pendant with the rest of the brooch, and it really worked.    So, out of two pieces of jewelry she never wore and one that was really worth nothing—even the secondhand market isn't that good for these brooches—she had something she could wear, and it looked amazing on her. Should she ever want to put the pendant drop into a ring again, she can easily do that because all we did was carefully slice the shank off the band and leave the head intact. Although she couldn't put the brooch back together, I can't imagine the brooch ever being worn again as a brooch. It was a big Victorian lump of a thing. So, she was thrilled by that. I did a number of other little things for her as well. She completely transformed her jewel box into pieces she could wear and have fun with now.   Sharon: You must have been ecstatic.   Jessica: Yeah, she's very happy. It's nice. What I love is seeing people's snaps. She sends a couple of pictures when she's all dressed up in new jewels, and that's always fun. I love working with young girls. I've done a dozen rings for people who've inherited their granny's jewelry, and it's really fun for these girls in their teens and early 20s to be designing jewelry. It's such a fun thing to do, isn't it?   Sharon: Is it because they come with more of an idea when they're younger? Or can you turn it into something you relate to more? What is it?   Jessica: It's making something for them that will be with them forever, that they can hold every day and think about. It's a little bit of them and a little bit of the past all in one piece. I find that very invigorating.   Sharon: What do you like about being a podcaster? What holds your attention there? Is it finding guests? Is it the human connection?   Jessica: I think you're absolutely right, Sharon. It's definitely the human connection. Tell me, is the reason you do your podcast so that you can chat with people?   Sharon: I like the term you used, passion project. It's a passion project. It's the same thing you're saying. What reason do these people have to talk to me, really? It's a passion project. I think that confuses people because I don't have a jewelry store; I'm not a designer; I don't have a brand.    Tell us about the brand you're developing. Is it a Jessica-made brand?   Jessica: No, it has its own name. That's the amazing thing, Sharon. I'll start at the beginning. The reason it's coming together is because enough of my friends said to me, “I'm looking for a gift or something for me, but I don't want to spend half a year's salary. I want to spend a few hundred pounds, but I want something that's going to last. I don't want to buy plated jewelry, like all those other repetitive designs out there online. I want something that's quality, something you could make me, Jess. Something top-rated, top quality, built to last but beautifully designed and completely different from everything else.” So, I thought, “Well, enough of them have asked me to do this for them.” I felt we could have a business here.   So, I've been putting together this brand. It is taking a very long time because I want all the sourcing to be transparent and totally traceable. I want these things that are at the top of my agenda, the ethical, sustainable sourcing story, to be very clear. I think that is the foundation the brand needs to sit on because my customers for this brand are younger people. They're younger men and women who are looking for jewels that reflect their own spirit, something that's different, bold, contemporary and made with fine jewels, fine materials, fine metals. The bit I'm adding to it is the fact that everything is ethically sourced.   Sharon: Wow! That's a lot. You have to really think about the pricing and who's going to produce it. Between launching your own business and the podcast and everything, has it allowed your inner entrepreneur to blossom?   Jessica: I love it, Sharon, thank you. An inner entrepreneur. Yes, I suppose so. For so many years, I was working for other brands. Now I have to dig deep and create a brand from nothing. It isn't going to be named after me. It has a name we're still working on. It's a strong name. It's got a story behind it. As soon as I'm ready with it, I will tell you, Sharon.   Sharon: Yes, I'd love that. When do you expect to launch this?   Jessica: We'll do a soft launch in the late spring. I was hoping to get some pieces ready for a launch on International Women's Day, but it's also a brand for kids. I have two sons. My eldest son is quite conservative; he just wears a signet ring, but my youngest son loves jewelry. He wants new pieces. He wants an index finger ring; he wants a pearl necklace. So, it's a multipurpose jewelry line, and it can be worn by girls and boys.    I want a few pieces I can launch in the spring. It was going to be launched on International Women's Day, but because of the gender-fluid aspect of it, that's not that appropriate. It doesn't matter if it launches a bit later, so long as I've got a few pieces that will do the brand justice. I don't have to have all the pieces out at the same time. That can come as months roll by, but I'm very much hoping I'll have some pieces for the spring.   Sharon: Wow! We're at the end of 2022 right now. You must be very busy. I know it's a very busy time of year. It's hard to get ahold of guests and that sort of thing. Are you busy with a lot of people coming to you?   Jessica: Yes. I don't know how to say it, but it is Christmas, so it's crazy. The thing I love about Christmas is that it's a date we all know.   Sharon: Yeah, that's true.   Jessica: It's at the same time every year, yet these last few days before Christmas are bonkers. It's just hilarious. So, yeah, I'm working through the night and through the weekend. Finally, I'll pack up my digital shop and take a long break for Christmas and New Year's.    Sharon: I would guess that people say at the last minute, “Oh my gosh, I have to get something. I'd better talk to Jessica about designing something because I don't have anything.”   Jessica: There's nothing I can do now about designing something new, but I've definitely got some pieces that have longer delays than I would have liked, or people have thought of them a little bit too late ahead of time for me to be totally relaxed about it. I've got some last-minute orders that are still in the workshop that I need to get out within the next couple of days. Here in the U.K., we've been blighted by rail strikes and tube strikes and post strikes, every sort of strike. So, we've had to be quite inventive. I feel like a little human shuttle darting around with jewels.   Sharon: It must be very challenging. Good luck. I will let you get back to your drawing and everything else you have to do for the holidays. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.   Jessica: Sharon, it's been a joy. It's been so nice speaking to you. I'm so honored to be a guest on your show. Thank you very much for asking me.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   What it means to be a personal jeweler, and how Jessica helps repurpose people's unworn jewelry How Jessica came up with the idea for her podcast, Inside the Jewel Vault What pieces Jessica would include in her fantasy jewel vault Why wearing jewelry connects us to our humanity Why Jessica is creating a gender-fluid jewelry brand   About Jessica Collins   Jessica Cadzow-Collins fell in love with jewelry and gems aged 18, whilst working as an intern at Sotheby's, and trained as a professional gemmologist. For over 30 years since then, she's held senior roles in fine jewelry at luxury retailers such as Harrods, Garrard and Asprey where she helped all kinds of amazing clients with their precious pieces, from tiaras to engagement rings, all over the world.     Jessica is now a personal jeweler. She started a business, Jessica May Jewels, to help people find their dream designs and remodel their unworn pieces. Using her high-jewelry know-how, she creates bespoke pieces that don't compromise on luxury, quality, service, value or ethics.    Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional Resources: Instagram Facebook LinkedIn Website Jessica's article on the Koh-i-Noor 'Curse or Blessing'   Transcript:   When Jessica Cadzow-Collins isn't designing jewelry, repurposing her clients' old jewelry, or developing her own line of jewelry, she's talking to people about jewelry on her podcast, Inside the Jewel Vault. A lifelong jewelry lover, Jessica joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it means to be a personal jeweler; what she would include in her fantasy jewel vault; and why wearing jewelry is distinctly human. Read the episode transcript here.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    Today, my guest is Jessica Cadzow-Collins speaking to us from London. She is the founder and designer of Jessica May Jewels. She is also the creator and host of the podcast Inside the Jewel Vault. She's a gemologist and a designer, and she has worked with many well-known jewelry houses. Jessica, welcome to the program.   Jessica: Thank you so much for having me, Sharon. It's so lovely to be your guest. It's nice to be on the other side of the process instead of being a host for a change.   Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. When you were a child, were you interested? Were you artistic?   Jessica: Yes, I was artistic. I was also quite academic. I was an all-arounder. I grew up in Scotland. I was educated in Edinburgh, and I had my heart set on being an art dealer as a teenager. That's what I wanted to do more than anything. So, as soon as I could, I got into my old, beaten VW and drove all the way from Edinburgh to Florence. I stayed with the Prince and Princess Corsini as their paying guest, and I did studies in Italian and history of art.    Luckily, I managed to win a job as an intern at Sotheby's. I had a very menial job filing, but the desk next to mine was the jewelry expert's. She would value the pieces that came into the Florence office, and I would send them to London if they were good, or New York if they were very good, or they'd go onto Rome. That is how I got into jewelry. It was so amazing seeing these piles of new pieces. Every day fresh pieces would come in, and we would stand and talk about the age of them, the condition, the composition, and the gems.    She said, “You shouldn't do paintings. You shouldn't be an art dealer. You should do this.” So, I did. I phoned my father that evening and said, “I'm going to London. I'm going to study gemology,” because that is what she told me she had done. So, there it was. It was just fate.   Sharon: You were an art history student and then you went into jewelry?   Jessica: Yes, that is the way it worked.    Sharon: There are not that many courses for jewelry history except gemology. Tell us about that.   Jessica: I went to London. What I loved about studying gemology was it was glamorous and academic and unusual. None of my friends were doing it. At the time, the only course I could take was in London, in the city. It was night school. I was only 18 at the time. I was studying gemology at night, and I had to get a job in the day. So, I won a job again. It was a long process, but I got a job basically as a tea girl.   I was in the trading department of this old jewelers on Bond Street called Collingwood. Really, from the get-go, I was expected to trade. I was trading loose stones and antique period jewelry. I would take a bag of jewels and go to Miami and New York and Boston, all over Europe, trading, buying and selling jewels for a 10% profit or whatever, just as an antique dealer would. I wasn't a very good dealer, I have to say. I was too keen on being able to sleep at night and a bit too fair to be a very good dealer. That's how I ended up in retail in the end.   Sharon: You say it's glamorous. I don't understand why gemology or gems are glamorous.   Jessica: Oh, it is. I loved it, absolutely loved it, because I was surrounded by gems in my day job, and in the evening, I was understanding how they were formed in the earth's crust and the processes they take to go from the mine to the market. It was fascinating. I absolutely loved the whole world. I've been very happy in this world now for 34 years—no, 35 years. I was definitely in the right job.   Sharon: But you said you couldn't sleep at night because you wanted to make sure everybody was treated fairly.   Jessica: I think a really good dealer would need to be a little bit sharp. I think I was a bit too concerned about being fair.    Sharon: Most of the time, dealers say they have a hard time letting go of the things they acquire.    Jessica: Yes, I know that feeling, but this is perhaps why the job I do is perfect. I'm making something for someone. When they're happy and their face lights up, you know you've done a good job. That's a joy. That's the thing I love most.   Sharon: So, people come to you to have things designed, or do you design them and put them out?   Jessica: That's right. That's what I do now, but most of my career I was running departments or boutiques on Bond Street for all the first-class brands, especially those with royal service like Asprey and Garrard. That was my world.   Sharon: Wow! When did you decide to go out on your own? What was the catalyst for that?   Jessica: It was perfect. I had just begun a new project, a very exciting major project, and then Covid came and everything went dead. My new job collapsed. It just fell in on itself. I think that was the catalyst for me saying, “Well, do you know what? This is the sign to set up my own business I've been waiting for. Let's just get on with it.” So, it all kicked off during Covid at the same time as starting the podcast.   Sharon: So, that was the catalyst.   Jessica: Yes.   Sharon: Covid was the catalyst.    Jessica: Yes. I seized the opportunity, because suddenly the whole world seemed in flux. It was an exciting time if you could seize that wave and roll with it and see where you went. I must say I've been very happy working for myself as my own boss ever since.   Sharon: So, the podcast is Inside the Jewel Vault.   Jessica: Yes.   Sharon: Tell us about it. It's so different. Did it take you a while to come up with the name? Tell us, what does the podcast entail?   Jessica: Thank you for mentioning the podcast. It is a passion project of mine. It was during Covid. It was shortly after the first spring lockdown in 2020. I'm lucky I have friends who are very talented, including my neighbor, Lizzie Wingham. She's a digital editor who's worked for the BBC. She's very well regarded, and she has an interest in jewelry herself. I was talking to her over the garden fence, and she said, “I've been looking, and there are no podcasts on the subject of jewelry that really spark my imagination as a specialist. Jessie, you should do one,” and I said, “Oh, my goodness, I've never done a podcast in my life. I have no idea what to do.” She said, “Well, I'll help you. I'll be your producer.” The tea ended and the wine came out, and we began a project.    The idea for the format is just to ask our guests questions. The guests are drawn from across the jewelry world. They're people who have good stories to tell, obviously, but are exceptional in their own field. When you start to look at the world of jewelry, it's huge. There are not only designers, but there are scholars; there are dealers; there are minerologists; there are curators. The list is so huge. That's how it all came about.    The idea was to ask these people to come up with six gems. They could be ones they've worked with. They could be ones they've owned themselves or handled, or maybe handled once and then lost. They could just be pieces they lust after. It's like the jewelry equivalent of Desert Island Discs, which is a very popular BBC radio show.   Sharon: What is it called?   Jessica: It's called Desert Island Discs. It's one of the staple BBC radio shows in the U.K.    So, we just got started, and it was a wonderful excuse for me to speak to some of my heroes. We've uncovered all sorts of ancient gold and royal gems and fabulously valuable diamonds and goodness knows what else. Lizzie's job is to turn all of those recordings I enjoy doing into produced and intelligent podcasts that follow a good line. That's what we've been doing.   Sharon: The name is such an unusual idea, Inside the Jewel Vault. Did you come up with it over wine, or did you have to really think about it? Tell us how you did it.   Jessica: After a glass of wine, certainly. Good ideas seem very compelling then, don't they? It just came about while we were chatting about it. As I said, it sort of follows the format of Desert Island Discs, where you speak to a guest. In that radio show, they select eight tracks or pieces of music that mean something to them, whereas we are selecting six gems or jewels that really turn them on.    Sharon: How often do you have a new episode—I call it an episode—or a new person?   Jessica: I don't do this full time. It's not a well-oiled machine like yours, Sharon, I'm afraid. You've done nearly 200, I think, over the last four years, haven't you? Whereas I've only done about 40. There are a couple more in the can waiting for approval and final edits, but we're a bit slower off the mark than you are, Sharon.   Sharon: How do you choose a guest, first of all? You must know so many people. How do you choose the guest?   Jessica: I have to admit that I don't know the guests. Quite often it's a cold call or a cold email, I suppose. They're somebody who is lighting up their own corner of the world of jewelry. I've yet to ask an auctioneer; I've yet to ask a foreign collector; I've yet to ask all sorts of people on my dream list. 2023 will be the year I start sending out these cold emails again.    Sharon: What's the reaction you get when you ask a guest to be on Inside the Jewel Vault? How much time do you give them? It can take a while.   Jessica: It's entirely down to the guest. Most people are so busy, especially the people that I've been speaking to. They tend to fly around the world as it has opened up. When I first started, it was rather easy because people were sitting at home. They were able to sit by their laptop and start typing, and everyone got so good at Zoom. It's a bit harder to track people down and to twist their arm enough for them to tell me what six pieces they would put into their fantasy jewel vault, but it is great fun. I love doing it.   Sharon: It sounds wonderful. I've listened to it and it's very interesting. The guests you choose, is it because they do something original or they're well-known? You could always choose a diamond dealer. You don't, but how do you choose a guest?   Jessica: That's a really good idea, Sharon. I must speak to a diamond dealer. That's one I haven't spoken to yet. I have a set of running lists that I keep adding to. It's just finding the opportunity to approach people. It's very much a passion project, but I must admit it: I do need to give it a bit more time and attention. I think we only manage about one a month at the moment, and it's quite a slow process. I need to work a bit harder on it, but there's always so much to do. That's my excuse. I'm always so busy looking after my clients, making their pieces. Also, I'm about to launch my own brand, which is taking up an awful lot of time. It's very exciting, but also very hard work.    Sharon: So, you have your own jewelry brand in addition to retail stores. Tell us how you work right now.   Jessica: At the moment, I'm a personal jeweler, which means I take care of people's pieces. I can repair or upgrade their existing pieces or entirely start again from scratch. I make engagement rings. I make new pieces out of old pieces. It's really down to the customer. Quite often, people come to me with their jewelry box and say, “I hardly wear any of these pieces, but so-and-so gave me this and my mother-in-law gave me that. I can't get rid of them, but I don't wear them. What do we do with them?” I'll transform them into pieces they can wear and absolutely love wearing, pieces that are adaptable and suit their lifestyle. I help people with all sorts of things, from signet rings from their 18th birthday to their first diamond pieces in their 20s through to push presents and all the rest of it. Everything a person would do, I do, and I love that.   Sharon: How do people learn about your services?   Jessica: It's word of mouth and the fabulous Google. I don't do any advertising. It just seems to be luck that people find me through searching or asking.    Sharon: Your website is very nice and clean and easy to read. Your LinkedIn is also. I think it's great what you're saying. If I were looking for an original jeweler, if I were looking for an engagement ring, I might go to you and say, “I have no idea, and I have no stone or anything.” What would you do?   Jessica: If it was for you, then it makes it a whole lot easier. Sometimes I have to work with the groom or friends of the bride to be. We have to work out what she loves. Sometimes it's crystal clear because she's seen a ring that is her dream ring. Actually, a lot of brides do get involved in designing their dream rings. Occasionally I've done some complete, total surprise dream rings, and they've been wonderful to do. For others I've worked very closely with the couple, and we produce something together that encapsulates their unique love for each other and their story and all their hopes and dreams. It's the most wonderful process.   Sharon: That's a lot to have in one ring, a lot to communicate in one piece of jewelry. Tell us what's been the most surprising with Inside the Jewel Vault when people come to you. What are the surprises you've had, things that have been different?   Jessica: Oh, gosh! I've had such a broad array of different guests. I think any of the pieces Darren Hildrow chose are quite extraordinary. He chose a piece you wouldn't normally consider a piece of jewelry. It was more like a piece of body art, to be honest.   Sharon: What's his name? I haven't heard of this person.   Jessica: He's a jewelry entrepreneur called Darren Hildrow, and he chose one piece that was extraordinary. It's called Rocket Man by Walter van Beirendonck, which is more like a piece of body art. That was pretty surprising.    Some of the guests have chosen stunning pieces that everyone would know of, but other guests have chosen pieces that are by smaller designers. That's always fascinating to hear. We did a lovely broadcast with the GIA's field gemologist in Bangkok, Wim Vertriest, and he chose some amazing gems that he had stories of throughout his career. The wonderful thing about gems and jewels is that there are stories attached to almost everything. It's the human connection that makes jewelry so special. I think the Rocket Man was the most unusual case, but everything else is particularly special because it does have a story.   Sharon: I'm curious if people ask you if you look at it differently because of your background.  You're Scottish from Edinburgh, and then you went to Italy. You must speak Italian.  Do people ask if you have a different perspective than somebody like me who just grew up and went to school and that's it?    Jessica: I'm sure that's not the case, Sharon. You've spoken to hundreds of people in your career now. It's the joy of hearing somebody else's point of view, somebody else's story, somebody else's jokes. There's always an opportunity to learn from people, don't you think?   Sharon: Yes, that's why I'm asking. If you're at a party, how do you describe what you do? If somebody says, “What do you do,” what do you say?   Jessica: At the moment, I say I'm a personal jeweler and I can make your jewelry wearable or make it new or make the jewels of your dreams. That's what I say if I'm asked what I do.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.

In this episode we will hear from Jessica It's All Good, a comedian out of Atlanta. Her energy is magnetic, she's got a positive outlook on life, and she's super funny. We will get to hear a bit about her journey of how she came to be someone who is so in love with her life. It was so fun meeting Jessica and listening to her stories, I hope you'll enjoy too! Find more Life with Room HERE! Find Jessica It's All Good HERE!

Catholic health coach Jessica Castillo is on the line! We talk about her conversion to Catholicism, her time in the military (she is so brave!), the integration of our physical health with our spiritual and mental health, the role of virtues in our health journey, and the power of being intentional in our food choices. Victoria also opens up about some of her food and sleep struggles. You will be so happy you listened!  Highlight from Jessica: "It's so much easier to eliminate temptation than it is to resist or fight temptation."  Jessica's website Jessica's articles on Catholic365.com (esp. love the one on what to do after a bad night of sleep) Created by VictoriaEverleigh.com Buy my novels: The Love We Vow and The Vows We Keep  Already read them? Leave a review on Amazon or GoodReads! 

“It's crazy to me that we have made this industry so confusing and so secretive,” says Jessica Willis, Founder of Pocketnest, a financial platform that she licenses to financial institutions, as well as employers for employee financial wellness. A self-proclaimed finance wizard, Jessica knew she wanted to help others who may be intimidated or less knowledgeable to be able to organize and optimize their finances. She became so excited about the platform as she was building it that she was happy to jump out of bed at 5:00 AM to work on it and sad when she had to head for her office job hours later. She encourages anyone else to make a similar leap toward their own mission that serves other people. Take advantage of every startup event and networking opportunity. If you don't know how to do something, find people who will help you. These people will become your mentors, perhaps for life. Always have something to show people, even while you're still perfecting it. Remember that startups exist within an ecosystem. Just as you require and receive help, you will be called upon to help. Find a way to pay it forward. This is how you build your all-important community. Quotes • “I want to make personal finance be not so overwhelming, and difficult and unapproachable.” (15:51-15:56 | Jessica) • “It was probably six to nine months of me getting much more excited about Pocknest than my full- time job. My husband even asked me one time, ‘Do you even like going into the office?' And I said, “I mean I guess I do. I just like working on Pocketnest better.' And he said, “Oh my god, you want to get fired!' And I felt that would be so much easier if someone else could make that decision.” (18:37-19:14 | Jessica) • “If I knew my daughters were settling for something they didn't love doing, I would say, ‘What are you doing? Take the risk. Take the jump and go for it.'” (19:33-19:41 | Jessica) Connect with Jessica Willis: Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/pocketnest Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe to Dear FoundHer on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! You can now work with Lindsay 1:1 to build and monetize your community through the same method she used to grow and scale her business. Fill out the form here and set up a FREE 30-minute consultation. Make sure you sign up for Lindsay's newsletter and have all of the takeaways from every podcast episode sent straight to your inbox. PLUS, you'll get a tip every week to help you grow and scale your own business. Don't forget to follow Lindsay on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lindsaypinchuk Use code FoundHer for 50% off your first month with both HiveCast and Fireside Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Jessica is back on the Be It pod to share her health journey and to address the hard topics that many women feel but never speak about. Listen in to gain practical tips for addressing your next doctor's appointment, how to advocate for yourself, and the importance of normalizing conversations about women's health.  If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Tips for getting the most out of your doctor appointments Sharing is how we know we are not alone.Why common should never be “normal”.How Pelvic floor physical therapy can benefit you.Find the person to listen to your story and give concrete action items.Discover how to live your best life in the middle.BIO Jessica graduated from Regis University in Denver with her Master's Degree in Physical Therapy in 2000. She received her Pilates training in2001 through Polestar Pilates and is a Nationally Certified Pilates Teacher and PMA approved continuing education provider.She has worked with thousands of clients of different backgrounds, ages, injuries and abilities, to help them reach their ultimate health goals.Jessica is recognized as a leader in the Pilates industry. She has a successful YouTube channel, membership site and blog. She has been named a top 10 finalist in the 2015 Pilates Anytime Next Instructor Contest and a Creator on the Rise by YouTube and has been featured in Pilates Style Magazine (including as a cover model in 2020), Shape, Buzzfeed, Yoga Journal and Thrillest. She teaches popular workshops and courses to other health care professionals and Pilates instructors and is considered an expert in the women's health arena.Jessica and her husband, Brian, founded Momentum Fest, a three day Pilates and movement festival, in 2017 in order to create an inclusive, loving and fun place for all people to celebrate movement together.She is married to her best friend and their days are spent in Denver wrangling two young kids, being in the sun, living their passion through work and drinking coffee.Episode References/Links:Jessica Valant Pilates WebsiteFollow Jessica on IGCheck out Jessica Valant Pilates on YoutubeOtter NotesProfitable Pilates HealthCare Advocacy Course  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Jessica Valant  Hey, Be It babe, this is for you. This is, this interview is for you. I am so excited to bring back a guest. She's one of my dearest, dearest friends, you'll hear me introduce her. But also she is truly someone who is here to help with this subject. And something I've seen in my own health history and then also, in my clients that I work with, and the people that I coach, and my own family, just women around me is how many are going through a health struggle that no one knows anything about. And either they have not been able to find an answer, or it's taken them years and years and years. And I know that every single one of you listening to this, is here on this planet to make a difference in the world. Like, truly. And even if you're listening to this and say, "Lesley, I am not on a podcast. I'm not on social media. I'm not creating anything." I don't care. None of those things, those things make an impact for those that make an impact. Or you can make an impact with your neighbor, you can make an impact with somebody walking down the street that you smile at. And you help. Right? You, you you make more of an impact than you think. And especially if you are in line waiting for your kid at school, and you share something going on with you, health wise with someone who can then go, you too. So this conversation about. Jessica Valant is back. And we are here to talk about women's health. And it's because she has her own journey with it, I have a different journey. But there are so many moments in there that I just wanted to like pause and just like almost have the team rerun what she said. So feel free to pause and rewind. So you get that. Because it's so important that you hear this episode. It's so important. I say this later. And I will say it now because you need to hear it so many times. If you are not confident and comfortable having tough conversations with people in your life, then share this episode with them. So that you can start the conversation in a way that feels a little bit more like, "Hey, did you hear that? Hey, did you hear that?" I understand. It's okay. I felt so weird in my life telling people was going on with me. I mean, literally, by the time people heard I was suffering, I was almost dying. That's literally what the person who looked at my results on my test said, he's like, "I don't know how you're here." And it's because part of the time I just stopped advocating for myself, and I was like, "Well, this is just gonna be the life I live." And then I got frustrated with that. And I would start again, and then they would make it worse. And I got to a place where I was really not well. And I don't know if I could have gone very many weeks longer like that. And so I'm so grateful for the different little angels that came in my life to make me feel like I wasn't alone. And there were options. And so I really cannot wait for you to dive into this interview. And I'm gonna stop talking. So you can and please, please, please, please, please, please send this to a friend. So that we all start hearing that like some of the stuff that no one is talking about. Everyone is often going through or know someone who is. You can change the world. We can have bigger impacts, and help people solve their issues or at least have answers sooner if we stopped just keeping it to ourselves and not let anyone know because it's embarrassing or or maybe we feel like we shouldn't be going through that. So I love you. Here's Jessica Valant.Lesley Logan  All right, be it listeners, I'm so excited because I actually have one of our one of our original guests actually back here on the pod. I am so excited not only she's a dear friend, and just a beautiful frickin human being. If you don't already know her, you will see that as you get to know her. But she is such an advocate for women and their health. And I'm just excited to have her share that with you and help us all because I think our health as women can hold us back from a lot of things. And it can be not only frustrating, but embarrassing, and even taking away some confidence that we could have in this role. So Jessica Valant. Hello. Hi, friend. How are you? Jessica Valant  You know what? Any excuse to talk to you? I'm great. I know. I know. I don't know, people listening probably don't know, it's the end of Friday. For me. This is the end of my workday. It's kind of early that I have to get the kids after this. And like there's no better way to end my Friday than this and transfer into the weekend. It's perfect. Lesley Logan  Oh my god, I know. Anyways, agreed. I get to teach a Pilates workout after this. So (Jessica: Well, that's fun too.) Still gonna be fun. It's live. So people are there. And then I will do a happy hour with them. So. So it's like you're like you're a part of the finale. It's great. So Jessica, can you tell everyone a little bit about who you are? And even like your journey getting here with your health and things like that?Jessica Valant  For sure. So, yes, my name is Jessica. I've been a physical therapist and a Pilates teacher for 20. I always have to look at the date and like what, like 22 years about, there abouts. I graduated from PT school in 2000. So I, I mean, to be honest, I never thought I would be in women's health ever. Like it was not something I wanted. It wasn't. I was like, I'm gonna work with athletes and orthopedic injuries, and I wanted to work with brain injuries. So I had this whole different view of what my career would be, as we all do, probably usually. And then I, my first foray into my own issues happened early 2000s. And basically, I started going to the hospital with a lot of abdominal pain, I had every test under the sun. I mean, I was 24. And I had a colonoscopy, and I know you understand some of the stuff and ultrasounds and everything, and no one could figure out what it was. And I just knew I was in pain. And I didn't know what was going on. I had a lot of back pain, I stopped PT. Anyway, finally, I had a doctor who said, "This might be endometriosis. Why don't we go in and have surgery because it's the only way to diagnose it." So in 2005, I had surgery. And lo and behold, I woke up and they said, "Yes, you have an endometriosis. There is no cure for it. You're going to have to manage it. And not sure if you want to have kids, but that's gonna be really hard for you. And good luck." And it kind of sent me on my way. So it was really my very first time of understanding that movement. And health had a whole different purpose other than how we looked, you know, other than, "Oh, I work out. So I can eat a doughnut tomorrow." Like, that kind of was all put to the side in that, okay, if I want to manage this and not be defined by it, because as many women know, if you go on Dr. Google and try to find information, it's pretty scary out there. They don't understand women's health. And there's a lot of scary things. So I knew I didn't want to be one of those stories, and that I wanted to do everything I could to not be defined by my diagnosis. So it started to change how I looked at a lot of different things and taking care of myself. And then along the way, I did I was able to have our daughter, and then I experienced severe prolapse after that. And then I went through IVF with our son, and then had prolapse surgery and two more endo surgeries and the hysterectomy. So along the way, I kind of realized, "Okay, universe, I'm pretty sure I'm in the women's health field now." Because (Lesley: Yeah.) this is what I know about. And you know, that's just a whole other lesson, really in business and finding a niche, but what you know about what you experience can really define how you walk through the world. And (Lesley: Yeah.) that's what it did for me, you know, having kids changed how I see the world and being a woman and experiencing healthcare and everything that comes with it good and bad. I remember sharing my first story and being really nervous. And I'm like, "I'll write about endo." And the response I got was just out of control. I couldn't believe it. And still to this day, 90% of the messages I get are from women. Thank you for sharing about your prolapse. Thank you for taking my hysterectomy. No one does no one does. No one's positive. And I just realized, okay, that's, that's really the road I'm gonna go down because it's not talked about, and there's not a positive outlet for people looking for answers. And so I realized it was a void, I could fill and I think it helped me heal as well along the way talking about it has always helped me heal. So I think it's a combination of those things. And that's where I am now.Lesley Logan  Yeah, well, well, first of all, (Jessica: Yeah.) thank you for sharing that so that (Jessica: Yeah.) everyone could kind of be on can understand why you care and why this is such (Jessica: Yeah.) a passion for you. I mean, similarly, I had very interesting health issues where no one could know and I had a doctor say to me, "I think you have endometriosis. But I cannot tell you because of that of the surgery part." And also, he said, "You're on your parents health insurance. And I don't want it to be a pre existing condition." (Jessica: Yeah.) He said, "So don't go looking for answers until you actually need them." Which is like when your doctor is like, "Don't do it, because there (Jessica: Yeah.) is no help for you. And then your insurance be more expensive." (Jessica: Right.) Was ... (Jessica: Right.) you know. And soJessica Valant  Right. It's almost like our first limitation right away is insurance. And I know you even put this on your story the other day without getting into the details, but just talking about having to be an advocate for yourself for years. (Lesley: Yeah.) And it's absolutely true that that is one thing I'll say off the bat, it takes work to get answers for yourself. It takes work to be an advocate for yourself. Like I think both you and I would say that hands up, hands down. It's going to take work, and it's worth it. But it does you have to be willing to put your head down and learn a lot of terms you don't want to know and get on the phone and a lot of things.Lesley Logan  Yeah, yeah, I'll share because I think it's I I had an IUD because I needed to, then first so they couldn't get my period to come back. So this is like how I did it. Because I couldn't be on hormones. So thankfully a doctor, a lovely doctor along the way was like, "You had a blood clot because you can't be on hormones. Like that's where you're at." And so anyways, it put me on a copper IUD and then I couldn't find anyone to get it out because they could and find it. And I even went to Planned Parenthood. And this is to knock that knock knock that I don't want to knock them or anything like that. But like, I went somewhere thinking, "Oh, I'll go there because my health insurance is not going to let me remove this on the same day appointment. So I'll just go to them and they'll be able to remove it." And they couldn't find it. And they said, "I had to get a referral to go to someone special." And it really was me having to be an advocate so much that I actually had to hire someone to find me an appointment. I was like, I (Jessica: Yeah.) just, and I think I share that because like, it's okay, if you have to find an advocate there are there (Jessica: Yeah.) actually are people out there who will help you but not, it's important that we don't let these obstacles get in our way. Because had you done had you let these obstacles get in your way. You not only would you not maybe have the kids that you have in the life you have, but like there'll be a different story. And you wouldn't be who you are. So like how, how hard was it to advocate for yourself? And like what, what one of the conversations you had to have yourself to get along the way?Jessica Valant  I and those are such good questions. So for endo alone, it's an average of seven years for a woman to get a correct diagnosis. And not that everyone has endo. But there. I say that to say that women's health, reproductive health is there still a big mystery around it. Like we're just now finding out research that endometriosis has a connection to hypermobility, which has a connection to anxiety, I mean that we know that they are connected. And so when your body is telling you something, listen, like that's the first thing you can do is listen and write it down. Write it down so that you don't start to feel like you're a little bit crazy. Because we can feel that way ourselves like did I feel that? Did I not? Is it my period? Is it not as if there's many things that could be. So start writing it down, like "Oh, my stomach hurt after that meal that was different." Oh, this you know, whatever it is, I would say start writing it down for yourself. And so that you have it maybe to present for someone, but if nothing else, have it for yourself, listen, and just start to know if that feels right to you or not. And the first thing you do is really go to your doctor, I would go to the lowest barrier of entry, whoever it is, like you said, with insurance wherever you can go first and say, "I'm feeling these things. Tell me what this might mean." Like just have a conversation. And that's the first place you can go to see what might be next, you know, do they have an answer for you? How do you feel with that answer? It can take a year or two. So you have to be ready for one step at a time. But just make sure you're talking to someone who's listening to you. And if they're not find someone else, because yes, that I mean, I remember seeing someone in college, had these weird growth legs and I saw a doctor and he said, "You're probably getting drunk and falling down the stairs." (Lesley: Oh ...) What? And I went I went back home with my parents and saw my original pediatrician. He's like, "No," and he pulled out a medical book. He talked me through it. He's like, "This is this weird thing you have," which later I realized is kind of related to endo, I had didn't have my endo diagnosis yet. So being a 20 year old, I just left that office crying and didn't know what else to do. I'm like, "Well, that's it. I don't have anyone else to see." So just knowing that you are important enough to be heard by somebody, and maybe it even takes a virtual appointment, you know, or something. But I think that's the first thing is trying to create a way to listen to yourself and what your body's telling you. Because a lot of us have never actually listened to our bodies. (Lesley: Yeah.) Or we have, we don't listen in a positive way.Lesley Logan  We excuse away. We are, "Oh, it's because I ate that thing. It wasn't really that thing. (Jessica: Yeah.) Oh, it's because I'm not sleeping. And so I'm stressed out." And I love I want to reiterate like I love that you said like write it down. This is really helpful for me with my stomach issues because I was able to say to a doctor who gave me some weird thing like that in the ... Y'all, he said that I had he's like, "Are you sure you don't have body dysmorphia?" And I said, "I'm probably do now after (Jessica: Yeah.) 10 years of stomach issues, (Jessica: Thank you.) and (Jessica: Yeah.) my weight fluctuating up and down and not actually know what my actual body looks like." Like I actually don't even know what I suppose to look like. I said, "But I have pictures of what I look like in the morning and what I look like at night. So how, like, you can't say that to me." And he he sent me to the infectious disease unit to go get tested for AIDS. Like, an Ebola unit, everyone like that was a whole thing. And I was like, and the doctor said to me, she looked at me as a woman. And she said, "Do you know why you're here?" And I said, "No, I think my doctor is giving up on me." And she's like, "Are you satisfied with your doctor?" And I'm like, "No, I'm not. I'm not satisfied." But it was because I went to because I had all the stress. And that's the thing like the stress of going to these doctors can be really can also exasperate (Jessica: That's true. Yeah.) other issues. So having to go back to writing things down, because I had a log of when, like, what, how I felt in the morning and how I felt at night. And if it was different, I had like what I ate that day and then also when my period was and how that affected it. It allowed me to see what was more period related versus what was like actually happening when that wasn't happening? So I couldn't agree more. And yes, it's effort. But there are things like otter.ai, my team will put the link in the in the show notes, y'all, you can literally walk and talk and it will just do it for you. (Jessica: Yeah.) Yeah.Jessica Valant  Yes. Yeah, take the notes. And my other thing, I always tell every patient, women's health or otherwise, take someone with you to the appointments, if you can. And I know we're not always in this position whatsoever to do that. But if you can take a trusted friend, family member with you, when a lot of information is thrown at you, and especially when you're the one it's about, and so there's some fear with it, you won't hear everything. There it's just impossible to and you'll forget what to ask. You'll forget your own symptoms that are a big deal. I mean, how do we all know best practitioners that we have seen clients are like, "Oh, by the way, like two days later, I forgot this major part of my health history that I should have told you ..." You know we forget. So take someone with you, it will help. Practically not only to have someone to support you, but just practically it helps someone to start that journey to have another ear to listen and voice to speak.Lesley Logan  Yeah, my first assistant, and if she's listening, "Hi, Lindsay." She actually created a course for us because now what she does is patient advocacy. And she actually talks to, she talks to doctors about how to be better with patients. And I hope I'm not vipping that Lindsay and then she also had, we actually have a course on Profitable Pilates on how to be an advocate for people because as teachers as even a Physical Therapist, our clients do. And I know everyone listening is not a teacher, but like you have fa... if you have people in your life, they say things to you. And they say I don't want to do that they're gonna let me do this. But I don't want to take any pain meds because I don't want to do that. It's important that they either write that down, that's what she said, write it down, then they can take it to the doctor and say, okay, and a script, they want to put me on pain meds. Is there an alternative way that doesn't include pain meds, or having someone there to say, "Hey, remember, you mentioned something. Is there, is there another alternative to pain meds?" They don't want to be on them, because they're worried about this? Like, it's that kind of so she actually taught us how to help our clients be their own advocate, or in the case that we might be able to advocate, like, what that would look like. And so it really is as simple as like, if someone around you is complaining that you know, you've been said that a lot. So let's write that down. So next time you see your doctor, you can talk about it. So you don't forget.Jessica Valant  Absolutely. Yes. I think that's and I would say those are the three biggest things. Yeah, write things down. Find someone to be some kind of support system for you, hopefully, in the appointments if you can. And then also, don't be afraid to be the squeaky wheel. Like that's the biggest thing, do not walk out of that doctor's appointment until you have your questions answered. They are there for you. And they will also try to rush out, not on them. But they're trying to see 30 people so that they get enough insurance payment to pay their bills. That's the way insurance and medicine works. So not anything bad on the doctors, but it's what they do. They're trying to rush out. But if you ask them questions, they cannot rush out. So have your list of questions in addition to your notes, write them all down, and go down the list. And don't let them walk out of that room until you've asked all your questions. If you think of one the next day, call the office, talk to the nurse. There's a lot of great medical stuff online now where you can talk to your doctor and leave them questions. So be (Lesley: Yeah.) the squeaky wheel because that's the only way you'll get answers, honestly.Lesley Logan  Yeah, you're you're so correct on that. And you know, there is a push for them to say to stop calling us patients and start calling us clients. (Jessica: Yeah.) Because that's what we are, you paid whether you pay your is, you pay your insurance, you pay your copay, you paid. And so as a client, you know, there's just, it allows us to not that I wanted any doctors listen, I'm not trying to knock anything that you do, you went to a lot of schooling, but also like to, because of that way, it's seen as a hierarchical, they're in the white coat. I'm down here, I don't know anything. They're super smart. We do, especially as women, we don't want to be disruptive, we don't want to actually take up too much of their time. We don't want to take up too much of the space in the room. We don't want to be seen as crazy or hormonal or any of the things that have any thing about that that could be negative about us. So we tend to put them way higher up and then not actually stand up for ourselves.Jessica Valant  Yep. 100% 100% you have to. It's your body. Yeah, it's your body. It's your life. You have to live with it. And that is exactly what women think. And and that's, that is the way it is, it's brushed off many many times and so you do you have to you have to be willing to put in the work and be listened to. (Lesley: Yeah.) And that you matter, you have to know you matter.Lesley Logan  Like that could be the like whole mic drop off the podcast. Was there anything, you know, Jessica, you, you have been a Physical Therapist for 22 years. And you were I know running your own business at the time. Like, was there anything when you're going through this health stuff that like was did it keep you from doing other things? Did it keeps you from showing up in your life in any way? Or was it like kind of something you just learned how to balance?Jessica Valant  I think some of both, especially some of the emotional part, like I can look back, and there are really specific times that I had to sneak into a client room and close the door. And I was having stomach cramps, so bad on the ground and didn't know why. And I had to hide until I could pull it together. So they're really concrete times like that. And then times I was recovering from surgery that I would be teaching and tell everyone, "Hey, I can't demonstrate that move for six months. Just so you know, but this is what you're gonna do." And then there was a lot of emotional baggage, I think with it, especially during the IVF stuff that I and I just constantly knew. And I think this is a lesson maybe I learned a long time ago. And we all do it. Like, as a women, we all try to right, hide it and be like, "I'm fine. I'm fine." So there was that probably not a good part. But also, I did always walk in every time I walked into my day, I thought, they don't need my problems like my clients. That's not why they're here at all. So I didn't really talk about it. And and I didn't share it at the time, and I tried to hold it back. And now, it's been really interesting with my career different and having a chance to talk about all of it, because it is on video and podcasts and blogs. How many people relate to it? I think, gosh, there's got to be a halfway point that we do you share. Because it's the only way other people know they're not alone. Because (Lesley: Yeah.) like you said at the beginning women's issues can be win, really embarrassing. I mean, I put out a video about sex after hysterectomy. And again, so many DM saying, "Thank you, thank you. I'm so embarrassed, it hurts. I don't know what to expect." Incontinence, you know, is a big one, there are a lot of embarrassing things. So the more we can find a way to share in whatever way is natural for us. Not everyone needs to put it out in a blog post, but sharing with anyone, even just your friend down the street or a mom at pickup, it makes all of us realize we're not so alone.Lesley Logan  Well, and I think like I hid my stomach issues for years. And most people just thought I was getting skinnier. And I would wear like I would start the day and the tank top. And then I end the day with a sweatshirt and so no one saw, they were just like, "Oh, it's cold in here." You know, but then when I finally solved the problem, I started sharing it. And also because like I was actually absorbing nutrition. So I started to look like a person who wasn't walking around dying. People were like, "Oh, I feel that I have that. I have those same pains." And then I was like, well, crap, like, was I me not sharing was I holding people back from getting help sooner. Or even me getting help sooner. You know, and so, so it's not like, we should all be taking medical advice from our friends. But like, at least at least with people around you just sharing like, "Hey, you know, I'm a little, today I'm a little I'm not going to be demonstrating because I've got some stomach stuff." Like just saying it, just so people can go, "Oh, yeah," like, even if they just like becomes a little more natural to share. Like it's okay to have something weird going on. (Jessica: Right, right.) That, so it's not weird. And so that is (Jessica: Yeah.) just part of life. And then maybe doctors can actually figure out why the heck, someone that are super stressed and causing themselves not to sleep, and not go through my dis... digestion or anything else. And especially with IVF like, I had so many clients going through that. And I knew their struggle because I had to, but their friends didn't know. And so when they would lose babies they wanted they I'm the only person who knows. And I was like this is this can this is thank you. But I You need to have other people in your life who can support you through this. (Jessica: Yeah.) And they just the whole tradition of not telling anyone is there and that made it really hard. So I think like, I think it is important, even if you even if you just tell one other woman in your life what's going on just so that they can either maybe they know another woman who's going through the same thing. Or I know I'm so grateful for my girlfriends. Who are a little bit older who are hitting like menopause and they're like telling you what's going on and like, "What? I wasn't told that. No one told me that. (Jessica: Yeah.) When this is gonna happen in my life?"Jessica Valant  Yep, Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. (Lesley: I'm like ...) Just this morning.Lesley Logan  When is it ... Was I supposed to get a magazine in the mail? You know, like ARP? Was that supposed to happen ... (Jessica: Yeah. I know.)How would I have this information.Jessica Valant  I know. I was just talking to Brian about perimenopause this morning. It was so hot. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, because I'm never hot. Like, what's happening? Is this happening? This was happening. What's happening?" And honestly, to be able to laugh about it, too, is so nice because I don't know, maybe it's our mom's generation, you know, something. It was hidden. It was embarrassing. It was like, oh, that hidden thing. I don't know what that is, I don't know what's even happening. But like, we're all getting older. I mean I'm 44. We're all getting older, we're not getting younger. And so it's really nice to walk with people who I love and admire and support and like, "Oh, we can talk about this and laugh and I'm still me." Like, I am still me. And every woman who comes to me if you've had a prolapse, if your bladder is literally hanging out, if you have to pee your pants, when you jump rope, you're still you. You're still a beautiful, empowered human being and you're still strong, like nothing changes that it's only society that's told us otherwise. (Lesley: Yeah.) So yeah, to have people to laugh with, I think, is important.Lesley Logan  Yeah. So I hope as you're listening as you're grabbing your girlfriends, and like, maybe he just like, "Hey, can we just share a little bit?" Because I even like, even just like even reading your stories in your posts, I'm like, "Oh, oh, I actually, you know, I can't jump rope right now. Why can't I jump rope?" Like I don't. Like I would go to a gym and they put jump roping. And I'm like, "Oh, I'll do. I could do ice skater." So I like an ice skate. But like the actual act of jumping rope. (Jessica: Oh, yeah.) And so I was like, that's so interesting. I didn't know that that was a bad, like, not a bad thing. But like a thing I should be concerned about at my age. So then I like went and did some research, and I went and did some exercises. And now, when my hair bun is not in, I can jump rope ,you know. So like, I think it's, um, I think it's just, it's so interesting that we're all disposed to go through life. And like, keep all these things and like this, in this picture, that everything is fine, everything is perfect, everything is wonderful. When all that does is actually make all of us feel a little bit more like an imposter and a little bit more held back. And, and because we're not telling people it is holding us back in our career. Those are, those are hours and days that you would like had to be at work longer, or you are like, even there, there were things that I did not sign up for, like when I was in the modeling and commercials, I would tell my agents, I have to do gigs that are in the morning. If they're in the evening, I can't promise I'll be the size they hired. (Jessica: Yeah.) You know, and those things are like, that was that was a another layer of stress and feeling like I wasn't good enough. And maybe I should just quit this. So you know, it's a lot.Jessica Valant  For sure. And I think too, we're told, especially by doctors and medical community, we're told that things are normal, like, you know, like, oh, I'm peeing some after I give birth. That's normal. Well, it hurts with sex like I endometriosis pain with sex can be a really big symptom. And I remember before my surgery is telling my doctor and she's like, "Yeah, it's too bad. You just need to take some Advil before you have sex every time." Like, really like I was 22. I'm like, "Really? That that's what I need to do. Okay." So we're kind of told all these things, or you're a woman that's normal. And I tell people it's not. It's common, yes, like, don't feel crazy. This is very common, actually. Incontinence all of that is very common. Don't for a second think it's normal, and you just have to live with it. Because it is not none of those conditions are normal. There are so many things we can do for it and pelvic floor physical therapy and exercise and so many things. So yes, it's common. Don't feel like there's anything wrong with you. You didn't do anything wrong to get to this point. But don't just let doctor said, "That's normal." And leave. There are answers.Lesley Logan  Jessica, that is like amazing. I really hope you all heard that because I think that that there is that word normal that is used in place of common. And if they were to say this is common, and if it is something that is bothering you and holding you back from being a human being, we should look for more options for you. And that is we had Dr. Celeste Holbrook on. She's a sexologist, and her she waited till she got married. She's in the purity culture and they had sex and it was miserably painful. And she's like, "Well, it was the first time." So they needed to get in for a year. It was painful. And her doctors response was, "We'll get pregnant and then it will stretch out. And then ..."Jessica Valant  Yeah, and they would never tell a man that.Lesley Logan  No. And that infuriated me so much because and then the irony is when she did get pregnant they had have his C section because she yeah, she had two, she had twins with C section so it wouldn't have worked anyways, and (Jessica: Yeah.) she's like, she's like these that was so wrong, because responsibility is like the thing that keeps you from wanting to have sex so then I wouldn't have been having sex anyway. So but she you know that that happened to to her and I hear these things that they say and they my girlfriend was was trying to get pregnant and I knew they were struggling. And I said, "Oh, has he gone to the doctor to get checked?" And they said, "Oh, my doctors don't want him to this is waste his sperm, they like don't." And I'm like, "What? They, is not? They don't have, we have, we have a limited amount." (Jessica: Yeah, it's us.) No. Homeboy can go put it in there and the thing and they can test it, it's not hard. (Jessica: It is enough.) And it's going to be, you're gonna still have an amazing baby. But there's good sperm and like, it gets older, like, I was, like, so frustrated by that. She's like, "I know, but that's what they said." I said, "I don't care. He can go make an appointment. He doesn't need a referral. He can just go." Like, so it's so frustrating to me, that there's always a responsibility on us. And then also, there's this, oh, well, it's normal. And, you know, it can take some time. And, and so I just I think it's, it is hard. I know you all are listening to this, and you have so many other things on your plate. And being an advocate for your own health is a whole thing. But it is essential, not just for you, but for every other woman around you that comes because you can help pave the way. You can help find the doctors and it can be from just simply asking someone, "Hey, I'm looking for another Dr. X. Do you have a recommendation?" When I moved to Vegas, we have to find all new everything. Right? And so I literally found someone who I was like, "Oh, I get along with her well." And so I said, "Who do you go to? And like, do you feel heard when you go there?" And she's like, "Oh, here's my list." Like gave me her whole list. And so I could go down that list and figure out like, "Do I like this person?" ... It at least helps like narrow (Jessica: Yeah.) down the search.Jessica Valant  Yep, for sure. And if you need to start somewhere, I actually recommend pelvic floor physical therapy. If you're having any of these things, if you're having pain with sex, incontinence, pelvic floor pain, dialysis repti, if you're postpartum, any of that kind of stuff prolapse. At a lot of times, you can go without even having to see your doctor. So call your PCP or call your OBGYN. Say I'd like to go see a pelvic floor physical therapist. And honestly, sometimes you don't even need referrals, it just depends on your state and your insurance. And if you're even using insurance, and sometimes you only need one or two visits with a good pelvic floor physical therapist, but they are going to be able to give you some good information, and they have the time to listen to you. And they'll check it all out. And that can be a really good team member to then send you to the next place. (Lesley: Yeah.) So I think that's a good start. If you already have a diagnosis, and you're just kind of at a loss for answers, and you just want to talk through things. There's some great virtual options where you don't even have to leave your house. Like this week, I probably had saw four people and I think they were all women's health and a lot of it is just I was told I have this I don't know what to do. I live in hour from a doctor, I was told I can't exercise is that true? And we just talk for an hour and give them a plan. And then sometimes I don't even have to see them again. So just having someone yet (Lesley: Yeah.) you can talk your story, someone's listening and can give you a few really concrete action items that can help to.Lesley Logan  Well, and first I've never met like a pelvic floor therapist who doesn't like freaking love what they do. Like (Jessica: Yeah.) they love me ... that's that's a very specialized thing and they go into that. And and that you're right. They they do listen. Also because when you go to that person for those one of those reasons, or just wondering if it's one of those reasons, they've seen so many people that they get to like, look back and go, "Oh yeah, I've actually had a patient with similar things." And here's like, you just like it's not when you go to a PCP your Primary Care Physician. They see a lot of people that a lot of things. (Jessica: Yeah.) So when you go to someone who's a little bit more specialized in the thing, it's a little bit easier to get to your answer or some some some sort of path to a solution (Jessica: Yeah.) that works for you. Yeah, I love that suggestion. Oh, my gosh, Jessica, you are a wealth of knowledge on this topic. And we could keep going because there's so many different parts of women's health that we could talk about, but I really am grateful that you let me open up this conversation for our listeners, because they're all women mostly. I mean, there might be a few good men in there and thank you, but they probably have women in their life. So hopefully you send this to them. And I think the more we can talk about it and normalize, talking about our health, I just see the world being in a much better place for our daughters and kids don't like all my friends daughters, like I like envy the world that they'll live in (Jessica: Yeah.) with all that information. We're gonna take a brief pause and then find out where people can find out, how they can follow you, get to know you more. So one quick second.Okay, Jessica, where do you like to hang out on the gram? Where can people go for more information to work with you?Jessica Valant  I'm Jessica Valant Pilates everywhere. Instagram, my websites, Jessica Valant Pilates, and then YouTube and I have a ton of resources actually about all of this prolapse, hysterectomy, endometriosis. You can find it on my website, a lot of free resources there. Or you can honestly just go to YouTube to my YouTube channel. If you search anything, I'll have a lot of videos there where I talk about all my experiences, and hysterectomy surgeries and prolapse surgeries, and all of that stuff.Lesley Logan  Thank you. (Jessica: Yeah.) And bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action steps people can take to be till they see it. What do you think?Jessica Valant  I think and it's a great question, especially as related to women's health. I think I've been thinking a lot about the middle meaning like we try always to strive to be the best, whether it's releasing a video, because that's our job, or whether it's to feel our best, I'm gonna feel 100% whatever it is, and we sometimes don't do anything until we think we're gonna get right to that 100%. Like, we don't release something unless we think it's perfect. We don't, you know, do a workout until we feel 100% better. And that's just not life, most of the time, like most of the time, we're living somewhere in the middle, we're not the worst, but we're not usually 100% the best. So how can you live your best life in that middle space. And that's where we all are. And so if it is as related to women's health, just know that you are important, what you have to say is important, what you feel is important, and you should feel 100%. Like you should be able to get to that place, it just takes day to day action. And it takes a plan and it takes you to believe in yourself and be an advocate to get there. But you can but most of the time is spent in that middle. So take the time to know that this is your journey. And it's okay to have this journey. And there's a lot of good that can come out of it. And then one day at a time, the process will get you where you want to go.Lesley Logan  So I love that you bring up the middle because everything is like the middle, there's actually a piece of art that Brené Brown talked about on a podcast, I heard her on at least a decade ago at this point. And she said there's a piece of art, and it's like has like a start. And then it says the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, and it just keeps going until the very bottom is the end. And so like really, we're all trying to get to 100% but like that's, that's actually like, yes, that's great. And there are gonna be days when you feel that way and I woke up this morning going, "Today's gonna amazing. Why don't I wake up every morning like this." (Jessica: Yeah.) But also like, how do you find a middle where you can like live in that and thrive in that and enjoy that so that you're not constantly looking for the finish line. Yeah.Jessica Valant  Exactly. Like endometriosis. It's not, I can't heal it. I can't fix it. But my golly I can have an amazing fulfilling strong life right in the middle of it. And that's what I'm going to do.Lesley Logan  Thank you for being you. Thank you for being here. (Jessica: Thank you.) I love you so much. Everyone, how are you going to use these tips? How are you going to use what she talked about? What are your takeaways? We want to hear about them. Please tag @jessicavalantpilates and the @be_it_pod and do us a massive favor, do all the women in your life a massive favor. Share this. You know what? You're uncomfortable having this conversation right from where you are in your life, that is fine. That is completely normal. But even just sharing it so that you know your friends listening to it and then maybe it's a little easier to talk about it that is going to change lives around you and for generations to come. So let us know how are you going to use this and until next time, Be It Till You See It.That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!   'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.   It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianranco Cioffi.  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all videos each week so you can.And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Comedian and DJ Jessica It's All Good is on the Creatively Christian podcast, interviewed by Dave Ebert. Jessica talks about her leap of faith into entertainment (including experiencing homelessness!) and how her dreams changed over time. She also touches on her boundaries in doing comedy. Jessica It's All Good is “the entertainer you will NEVER forget.” She's a DJ, stand up comedian, member of the national improv group Fish Sticks as a member of the Atlanta team, and she's also an emcee. From her website, “Jessica It's All Good is a vibrant, clean and positive comedian who is here to change the world one mic at a time!  This southern, chocolate dipped lady brings to the stage her unique perspective, high energy, and a bold stage presence that appeals to the masses.  With a background in theatre and leadership, Jessica produces comedy shows around the Greater-Atlanta area. She performs all over Georgia, the USA, and online. This episode can also be found on YouTube. Show Notes The following resources were mentioned in the show or are useful resources recommended by the guests. Links might be marked as affiliates, meaning we earn a commission if you buy through the link. Fish Sticks Comedy Group - https://fishstickscomedy.com Learn More About Our Guest You can follow this guest on several platforms, including: Jessica's website - http://jessicaitsallgood.comFacebook - http://facebook.com/JessicaItsAllGoodInstagram - http://instagram.com/jessica_itsallgood Credits Today's episode is hosted by Dave Ebert. Dave has years of experience as an improviser, actor, speaker, and improv coach. He is also a credentialed minister with the Assemblies of God. Before finding improv, Dave spent over eight years traveling as a pro-wrestler. Dave also hosts the Gifts4Glory podcast. Find Dave on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook as @RealDaveEbert. Support this show and get access to exclusive content by donating at https://www.patreon.com/creativelychristian. This show is produced by Theophany Media (https://www.theophanymedia.com). The theme music is by Bill Brooks and Andrea Sandefur. Our logo is by Bill Brooks. This show is hosted by Brannon Hollingsworth, Andrea Sandefur, Dave Ebert, and Rachel Anna. Jake Doberenz produces. Follow Theophany Media and the podcast on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How Jessica built her accessories business, and when she knew it was time to step away from it  What it was like growing up in a creative household with Vladimir Kagan, a leading mid-century furniture designer, and Erica Wilson, the “Crewel Queen of Needlework” How to build a #neckmess that tells a story How to make the most of Instagram, Etsy and other selling platforms Why a Victorian jewelry padlock inspired Jessica's most recent work   About Jessica Kagan Cushman   Jessica Kagan Cushman is an independent jewelry and accessories designer who launched her career in 2004 with a line of hand-engraved ivory bracelets. Her line later expanded to necklaces, rings, earrings, and other accessories that were sold at Barneys, Bergdorf Goodman, and other high-end retailers.  Today, Jessica is known as the creator of #neckmess, a jewelry trend combining multiple necklaces, charms, and chains to tell a story. Jessica's latest endeavor is a line of antique-inspired padlocks and connectors that serve as the building blocks of #neckmess. Additional Resources: Jessica's Instagram Jessica's Etsy     Transcript: Jessica Kagan Cushman is a jewelry and accessories designer who struck gold not once, but twice: first with her hand-engraved ivory bracelets decorated with sassy slogans, and then with #neckmess, a style of jewelry wearing that layers multiple necklaces, charms and chains. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it was like growing up in her exceptionally creative household; how Instagram and Etsy have helped her business thrive; and how to build the perfect #neckmess. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Jessica Kagan Cushman. She's a well-known jewelry and accessories designer who today may be most well-known for her development of “neckmess.” If you haven't heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Welcome back.    Is it all through Instagram? How did you sell before Instagram, or were you doing this stuff?   Jessica: Before Instagram, I had a salesforce and showrooms. I had people selling my stuff all over the place. I had my things placed in showrooms. I had a sales manager and people who worked with him. I never really had to do my own sales, except when I was at Bergdorf's, all the designers would go and do personal appearances and I was behind the counter. In terms of doing wholesale sales, I had a team who did that. We did a lot of tradeshows. We did 20, 25 tradeshows a year all over the world.   Sharon: Was it Covid? You were online before Covid, right?   Jessica: No, it wasn't Covid. It was before that. It was long before that when I decided I wasn't interested in having that type of business, where I was spending most of my time managing employees.   Sharon: Yes, that happens.    Jessica: Exactly. That stopped being fun.   Sharon: Managing people takes time and patience.   Jessica: It does. It's fine if that's what you're doing, but I wanted to be making things and be creative. That's why I switched. I had a website for my bracelets and bags and things like that, with stuff in a warehouse. I had a fulfillment center that would manage all of that, but again, I was still dealing with stuff I didn't want to be doing. So, I closed that down and streamlined it. Then I just started selling through Instagram, which became a fantastic tool.   Sharon: What are your secrets for being successful on Instagram?   Jessica: That's something that evolves all the time. The new algorithms have really put a damper on sales for small businesses. It's hard. It used to be much, much easier—I would say six to eight months ago—to have people see your posts. Now there's a different algorithm and they have different criteria for what they use to push your stuff out there. I think they're really pressing for people to do Instagram Shopping, where people shop through the site. I haven't investigated it, but I believe there are some fairly onerous rules and they make a percentage. To me, the Instagram/Etsy interface does work. There's a lot more stuff I should be doing, and I could do relatively easily, but I've been sort of lazy about it, like making posts shoppable. You can make the posts shoppable without having to do Instagram Shopping, but it's work I don't want to do.   Sharon: Based on the way things are now, you first have to scroll past all these shops to get to individual people. I liked it the way it was before.   Jessica: Yeah, me too. It was better, at least from a small business perspective. I know a lot of jewelry dealers have had similar complaints about it.   Sharon: Why do you think people are attracted to your bracelets and charms and all of that? Why do you think that is?   Jessica: They're all part of the same thing, and I think it's self-expression. The bracelets are language and words, so they are your wrists literally speaking for you when you're wearing one. The charms and neckmesses are basically the same thing. It's a way to tell your own story and express yourself in an individual way.   Sharon: Tell us about the custom orders people ask you for, if they don't see what they want.   Jessica: Well, I will say now they do. They'll see it. I just made an amazing, engraved bracelet for a customer because she saw mine, reached out to me and asked me to make one with a saying of her choice on it. It's all triggered by something I post. People don't come to me and say, “Oh, I need an engagement ring,” or “I'm looking for a sapphire bracelet. Can you make it for me?” That's not the sort of stuff I do.   Sharon: Do you see neckmess growing, or are you onto the next thing?   Jessica: I'll always be wearing a neckmess. I feel like it's here to stay, because it doesn't have to be an enormous wad of things. You can wear two little charms and call it a neckmess. So, it's not going anywhere.   Sharon: That's interesting. I was making some notes to myself before we started. I think of the neckmess as something that skews younger.   Jessica: No, I don't think so, actually.   Sharon: You know better than I do.   Jessica: Based on my clients, it runs the entire spectrum. Even starting with my bracelets, I had customers in every age group. It also depends on what you're putting on there. If you're doing a neckmess with seven antique diamond charms, that's limited to how much you can splurge.   Sharon: I know you mostly through Instagram, but it seems like you're showing more individual charms as opposed to the neckmesses or a grouping.   Jessica: It depends on what kind of ratty sweater I'm wearing on a particular day and whether I'm feeling too lazy to go change and put together a presentable-looking top to put them on. It also depends on the charm. If there's something really special, I think it's nice to show it on its own, but I try and do carousel postings. You can post up to 10 pictures in one post, but I'm never sure how much people actually scroll through, and I'm not sure that's a metric you can see in Instagram. I don't know if they tell you that.   Sharon: I'm so used to it now that when there isn't something to scroll through, I'm going, “Well, I want to see different views.”   Jessica: That's great, but I don't know to what extent that's true for everyone. Some of my customers have messaged me and said, “Can I see this from a different angle?” and it will be something that's in the post; you just have to scroll through. As I said, it would be an interesting metric to see if people do scroll through. For all I know, you can see it, but I just haven't looked.   Sharon: I'm curious about the mechanics. If you don't have your shop, are people direct messaging you and saying, “I want that charm”?   Jessica: They direct message me. It depends on where they are and what payment methods they have, but I invoice them. More and more, I'm trying to get stuff loaded into my Etsy shop because that way it's there. People don't have to message me; they can just go and look at it, see how much it is, see the description, and I don't have to be online for them to get details about it. It's a process loading stuff into it. It's very easy. Etsy is very user friendly. You can do everything from your phone. There really is no excuse; it's just time-consuming.   Sharon: It is time-consuming. Like you say, it's filling out all the descriptions and putting it online.   Jessica: Lining up the descriptions and measurements, filling out all the different fields, taking all the pictures and a video and getting it loaded. For some reason, you can't load a video from the Etsy app; you have to do that from a desktop. It's not perfect, but it's really easy. I just need to do it.   Sharon: It sounds like it's working for you, but you're making me tired listening to you.   Jessica: Yes, I know. It's exhausting.   Sharon: You talked about managing people. Managing customers and clients can be a pain, too. Did you make a decision to say, “O.K., I'll do that. I'll manage the ones and twos as opposed to 10 people”?   Jessica: Yes, it's much easier to work with my customers than it is to be working in an office with a whole bunch of people who require attention and managing.   Sharon: Do you wake up jumping out of bed full of ideas? How is your creative process?   Jessica: I do get ideas at night. I keep a pad next to my bed, and I've gotten very good at drawing on my iPhone. In the Notes app, you can actually draw with your finger, which is a very cool thing. I do that a fair amount, or I'll try and make lists so I don't forget it by the time I wake up. Then I go into my studio, and I usually get about a third of the way down the list.    Sharon: It seems like each thing would be generating 20 more things in terms of ideas.   Jessica: Absolutely, that's true.   Sharon: Do you see being a jewelry professional as what you'll be doing for the next 20 years?   Jessica: Yeah, I think I'll always be doing it, but I'll probably be doing it in different ways. We're about to go away for essentially all of February and part of March. I'm taking stuff with me so I can be creating while I'm away, but I'm hoping I can do a lot less so it's not my daily focus while I'm on vacation.   Sharon: Do you preload things online so a few things are coming up while you're gone?   Jessica: No. I'll take stuff with me, and I probably will put my Etsy shop into vacation mode, but I'll keep posting and letting people know I can't ship for a while if there's something they're interested in.   Sharon: I'm sure you have regular clients, but do you have collectors? Would you say you have collectors?   Jessica: Oh yeah, definitely. I have lots of clients who collect all the different padlocks and the new ones when they come out. They'll string them together as a bracelet or use them in different ways. I definitely have collectors who collect my work.   Sharon: In general, I'm always interested in what people think and what their interpretation of a collector is. What do you consider a jewelry collector? Not just of your jewelry, but what makes a jewelry collector?   Jessica: Passion, I think. They're passionate about jewelry and they love it. I think anybody can collect it, obviously. I don't know that you can necessarily define what makes a collector, but for me, it's the fascination with the design, the uniqueness of the design or the way something is put together, the engineering behind it.   Sharon: Does it have to item-specific?   Jessica: No, it can be anything.   Sharon: Do you think a collector has to say they collect bracelets or lockets? I have a lot of jewelry, and somebody said to me once, “You're not a collector. You're a shepherd of the stuff,” and I thought, “Well, I'm all right with that.” Somebody called me a collector once and I was like, “I didn't know that I'm a collector. I'm an enthusiast.”   Jessica: I think some people say they are guardians of jewelry. You can't take it with you, so you're gathering it up and eventually it will get disbursed, unless it all goes to one place as group. But I think anybody can be a collector.   Sharon: What do you think is next for your business? What would you say is your next step? Is it day by day?   Jessica: It's day by day. For me, my goal is to get things online more, get things into my store so I can be a little more hands-off in terms of Instagram and having to communicate. That's a time-consuming thing. It's one of the cool things about Instagram because you can reach out directly to people, and I think people feel very connected to the creators.    Sharon: That's true.   Jessica: It's very cool, but by the same token, from my perspective, it takes up a lot of time answering DMs. It is time well spent because I love connecting with my customers and talking to them and finding out what they like, but it's time taken away from doing creative stuff.   Sharon: The DMs on Etsy, are people asking for a different variation?   Jessica: No, they'll just ask questions about the piece, like how much it is, how big it is, what it can go with, what kind of stones they are. Any number of questions.   Sharon: I noticed recently you posted some of your things from your personal collection. You said you were trying to reduce it.    Jessica: Right.   Sharon: Is there a touch of angst, like, “Oh, I'm sad”?    Jessica: When I sell things?   Sharon: When you sell your own things, things you've collected personally.   Jessica: All of it is personal. I only buy things and collect things that I like and would wear myself. I don't collect things that fall outside my areas of interest. I will buy certain things specifically to sell, but for the most part I buy something I would want to wear myself. Usually I am fine when I'm selling stuff I have collected. There are maybe five or 10 pieces over the years that I regret having sold, but normally not. I'm fine. I'm happy to see them fly out into the world to make other people happy.    Sharon: Tell us about one of those pieces you regret having sold.   Jessica: The most recent thing I sold that I'm like, “Why did I sell that? That was so stupid,” was a very simple, rose-cut diamond Victorian bracelet, but it was a great stacking piece, and it looks good with other pieces in my collection. I'm seeing other ones, but they're ridiculously expensive now because it's a hot item, and I'm wishing I'd held onto it. That's the sort of thing.   Sharon: It sounds like a beautiful thing. Somebody got very lucky.   Jessica: It went to a very good home. I know it's well appreciated where it is.    Sharon: That makes it easier then.   Jessica: It does make it better.   Sharon: When you're traveling or on vacation, is your mind filled with, “I should do something with that”?   Jessica: Yes, usually it's whatever I happen to be looking at. When I'm on vacation, I'm collecting stuff I can use.   Sharon: Is your family saying, “O.K., mom, enough”?   Jessica: Yeah, always. Now my daughter is grown and married and has her own family, so it's just my husband and me. I've got him relatively well trained. He's much better about letting me go off and toddle around and look for something. He's like, “Fine, go ahead. I'll read a book in the car and wait for you while you go shopping.”    Sharon: He's probably joining my husband there in the car. How did you come up with idea for the lockets?   Jessica: It was really based on wanting to wear the charms in an organized way. They allow you to wear things so they don't bunch up. They kind of spread them out, and you can connect pieces of chain. I would buy old watchchains or small pieces of chain and put them together. You would have to do it using modern findings or antique ones, but there was never just the right thing that would put them together and also be a decorative piece and part of the story. I bought a couple of antique padlocks, a Victorian jewelry padlock, and I was able to study that to see how it was put together and made. I also bought, when I was passing the flea market, this very cool double-ended padlock. I was like, “Oh my God, that's brilliant! That would work. I'm going to miniaturize that.”   Sharon: Double-ended meaning you could open it on either side?   Jessica: On either side. That's what most of the padlocks I'm making now have, either two or three attachment points so you can attach two pieces of chain and charms and keep everything neat and tidy.   Sharon: It sounds fabulous. I'm thinking your head must be spinning when you wake up because you're so creative, and you follow those ideas and energy. I really appreciate your taking the time to share them with us. Jessica, thank you so much. It's been so great to talk with you.   Jessica: It was my pleasure, thank you so much.     Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.      

  What you'll learn in this episode:   How Jessica built her accessories business, and when she knew it was time to step away from it  What it was like growing up in a creative household with Vladimir Kagan, a leading mid-century furniture designer, and Erica Wilson, the “Crewel Queen of Needlework” How to build a #neckmess that tells a story How to make the most of Instagram, Etsy and other selling platforms Why a Victorian jewelry padlock inspired Jessica's most recent work   About Jessica Kagan Cushman   Jessica Kagan Cushman is an independent jewelry and accessories designer who launched her career in 2004 with a line of hand-engraved ivory bracelets. Her line later expanded to necklaces, rings, earrings, and other accessories that were sold at Barneys, Bergdorf Goodman, and other high-end retailers.  Today, Jessica is known as the creator of #neckmess, a jewelry trend combining multiple necklaces, charms, and chains to tell a story. Jessica's latest endeavor is a line of antique-inspired padlocks and connectors that serve as the building blocks of #neckmess. Additional Resources: Jessica's Instagram Jessica's Etsy     Transcript: Jessica Kagan Cushman is a jewelry and accessories designer who struck gold not once, but twice: first with her hand-engraved ivory bracelets decorated with sassy slogans, and then with #neckmess, a style of jewelry wearing that layers multiple necklaces, charms and chains. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it was like growing up in her exceptionally creative household; how Instagram and Etsy have helped her business thrive; and how to build the perfect #neckmess. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.    Today, my guest is Jessica Kagan Cushman. She's a well-known jewelry and accessories designer who today may be most well-known for her development of “#neckmess.” We'll hear all about that and the rest of her jewelry journey today. Jessica, welcome to the program.   Jessica: Thank you so much. It's delightful to be here.   Sharon: It's so great to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It sounds like it started early and you stayed on course for the most part.   Jessica: Sort of; it was a little bit circuitous. For most of my adult life, professionally I was a management consultant, but I always had jewelry running parallel. It wasn't until about 2007 that I was able to stop doing the horrible corporate stuff and start making jewelry and make that into my business.   Sharon: Were you always making jewelry? Were you artistic as a child?   Jessica: Yes, and I always loved it. I loved jewelry from an early age. Both of my grandmothers had fabulous jewelry collections and loved it. My mother never wore jewelry. She wore a wedding ring and occasionally she'd wear earrings if she was going out. It skipped a generation.   Sharon: Do you consider yourself artistic in other ways? Were people are always saying, “Oh, you're going to be an artist”?   Jessica: Yes, I think so. I think partially that was an assumption people made because of my parents and what they did, but there was always that sense. My whole family is artistic for the most part. Yes, I was always creating things. That was the thing I loved to do.   Sharon: I thought there was a break with jewelry in terms of your professional career, but it sounds like the professional aspect came in the last 10 or 15 years.    Jessica: Yeah, 2007. I can't do that kind of math in my head, but around 15 years. That's when I started doing it full time.   Sharon: That's about as high as I can go when it comes to math without a calculator. I was doing something yesterday and I didn't have a calculator. It was very simple, but I thought, “Oh my God, what's going on.” Tell us about your family. You had an interesting childhood.   Jessica: Both of my parents were designers. My father was Vladimir Kagan, who was a mid-century modern furniture designer. My mother was Erica Wilson, who we used to call the “Crewel Queen of Needlework.” They both had very successful businesses, and we grew up in that environment.   Sharon: Did they ever try and influence you or say, “Forget the management consulting”?   Jessica: Not really, no. I think they were hoping I would continue. I think they would have liked us all to have gone off and become corporate workers. There's a little bit of, “Oh, God, don't do this. Don't be a designer. Do something real.”   Sharon: Oh really? That's interesting. I'm surprised to hear that because they were so prominent and well-known.   Jessica: Yes, because they had no idea what the corporate world was like, they probably had this romanticized vision that it might not be quite as hard if you're working for somebody else. If you have your own business, you've got to keep producing new stuff all the time. But they were always super supportive, and when my business started taking off, they were completely delighted and very supportive.   Sharon: I know you designed bags. Did it take off with the bags or the bracelets?   Jessica: It was the bracelets. I started with bracelets. I had a son whom we sadly lost when he was 21 in 2003. He was home; he had had an accident. He and I came up with the bracelet concept together. He was studying filmmaking at New York Film Academy but living at home, and we would stay up late at night and watch old movies and collect quotes that we loved. There were lots of what I call “yoga jewelry,” stuff that says “breathe” and “dream,” but I always felt that sassier women were under-served by the jewelry market. My father had taught me scrimshaw in Nantucket years ago when I was a kid, and I had a collection of old ivory bracelets my aunt had given me years ago. I just started engraving on them and wore them, and people loved them and wanted them. I started making them and I made more and more, and then Barneys got them and the rest is history. It grew from there.   Sharon: You developed that into a production line, right?   Jessica: I did. I was hand-engraving all of them myself using fossilized wooly mammoth ivory, which is amazing. It's 10,000 years old, and obviously no elephants are harmed in the gathering of that ivory. You can't use it anymore. That was when I was at Barneys. I decided I should rip myself off before someone else did, so I started making them in resin. I first started making them domestically, but the manufacturers here couldn't keep up, so I had to go overseas. Then we started making them by the thousands.    Sharon: Wow! Wooly mammoth, you can't use it anymore because?   Jessica: There has been an appropriate reaction to ivory. I think the reason it's banned now is because when you have newly processed wooly mammoth, unless you know what you're looking at—I happen to know ivory in all the different forms because I work with it so much—it's probably pretty easy to pass off elephant ivory as woolly mammoth ivory, even though they are very distinct differences between them. It's gone on a state-by-state basis, I think. At least a few years ago, it was state-by-state. You can sell it and have it in some states, but not in others. I just stay away from all of it now.   Sharon: When you were doing stuff for Barneys, did you find that your creativity for expanding was being usurped by all the stuff you had to think of to develop a production line?   Jessica: No, not really, because I was just doing one thing. I was engraving these bracelets myself. Then when I went to Bergdorf's, I was able to expand into much more than engraved bracelets. It started with that at Bergdorf's, but then expanded into a much larger line.    Sharon: To your bags or other jewelry or both?   Jessica: That expanded to other jewelry. The tote bags and other accessories, that business all grew concurrently with the Bergdorf's business. I really had two separate lines. I had a fine jewelry line at Bergdorf Goodman and a few other locations, and then I had costume jewelry and resin bracelets and bags and all sorts of other accessories that ran side by side. Eventually I had a licensing deal with a company based in California, and we did barware and all kinds of things.   Sharon: Wow! I'm so curious about your upbringing. It sounds peripatetic. It's so unusual an upbringing. Tell us about that.   Jessica: Well, it was amazing. It was a very creative household. We were never allowed as children to say, “I'm bored.” That was the one thing we couldn't say. Our parents would say, “Well, go make something,” so that's what we did. My brother is a professional artist, now a painter, and has been doing that in Nantucket for years. My sister took over my mother's business. She always claims to not be very creative, but I think everybody is creative if we know how to dig into it.  Then my aunt and cousins were all artists and painters.   Sharon: Did you travel a lot during your childhood?   Jessica: Yes. Both sets of grandparents lived overseas. My mother's parents were English, and my father's parents were German and Russian. They ended up in the U.K. for a while and then in Switzerland.   Sharon: Where did your parents meet?   Jessica: They met in New York. My mother had been sent over to the Embroiderers' Guild in Millbrook, New York, to teach the ladies needlework. She went to the Royal School of Needlework in London, and the Embroiderers' Guild reached out to the Royal School and said, “We need an instructor,” and they sent my mother. She was living in Millbrook, and she ended up at a costume ball in New York that was run by the Architect's League or something like that. That was where they met. My mother was dressed as a French poodle and my father was dressed as the devil, appropriately.   Sharon: I'm sorry, he was dressed as what?   Jessica: As the devil. It was very appropriate.   Sharon: That's an interesting way to begin.   Jessica: Yeah, exactly.   Sharon: As you said, you think everybody is creative if they dig deep enough. Do you think that's true about jewelry designers or fabricators? Is everybody creative?   Jessica: I do think everybody's creative. They're not necessarily going to be creative at making jewelry. You have to love it. My daughter, for instance, hates jewelry. While she is creative at certain things, jewelry would not ever be it for her. I'm going to have to leave my collection to a museum. She's got no interest.    Sharon: That's interesting. I have to think about that; whether it's jewelry or not, is everybody creative if you dig deep enough?   Jessica: I think so. I think it's a primal instinct. If you think about it, creativity is problem solving in a way. You just have to know how to access it.   Sharon: Do you have any particular tricks for accessing it?   Jessica: I don't. It does come very naturally to me. My problem is I have way too many ideas and not nearly enough time and hands to get everything done that I'd like to do.    Sharon: Tell us about what you're doing today. Tell us about your business and how you segued into it. You were on Instagram.   Jessica: Really that's it, Instagram. When I was doing all these things, licensing and the accessories and the bags and so on and so forth, I had about 10 people working for me in a studio in my house in Connecticut. We have since moved, but I had a separate building. I had all these people there, and it stopped being fun. There was such a demand. Every season, I kept having to come up with new stuff, new stuff, new stuff. That was taxing, and it stopped being fun.    I was able to step away from that. It's always constantly evolving, but my goal going forward is to just make stuff that I like and put it out there, and if somebody wants it, great, if not, whatever. Over last few years, especially during the lockdown and Covid, I would put stuff out there and people would want it. It was a bit of a struggle to keep up with making things. I found I was being very reactive instead of being able to focus on doing what I wanted.    Sharon: Reactive because were they placing orders?   Jessica: Yes, exactly. Basically, I have the attention span of a flea. If I sit down to make a pair of earrings, I get one earring done and I'm like, “O.K., I did that. Now, I'm moving on.” While obviously I love everything I do, I tend to want to move on to the next thing after a day and a half.   Sharon: Tell us about the business. Do you make everything now or buy things?    Jessica: Yes, the answer is yes. I love antique jewelry. I really have a passion for it. Each piece is a little piece of art, a little sculpture you can wear and have with you. Probably about five or six years ago, I started making padlocks and connectors that enabled my antique jewelry passion to meld with the modern stuff I was making as well.   Sharon: How did it connect to antique jewelry?   Jessica: The connectors, they're essentially miniature padlocks. I'm constantly evolving the design, but the most popular ones have multiple points of attachment, so you can attach a few chains. You can attach a bunch of charms. They're basically the building blocks of #neckmess. Obviously, #neckmess has become much bigger than just my padlocks, and you can build a #neckmess with anything, but to really make it look great, I think, it's good to have connectors and little pieces of chain so you can actually build a story without everything getting clumped up and mushed together.   Sharon: When you're putting things together, are you thinking about #neckmess and how it's going to work together?    Jessica: Yes, definitely. To have a #neckmess come out right, you have to put some thought into it and build it, I think. That's just my opinion. People wear all sorts of things, but I like mine to be a certain way. Even though it looks like it's just a pile of stuff that's all been thrown together, I usually have some sort of thematic or color thing that runs through it to make it a cohesive story.   Sharon: What do people tell you about #neckmess? When they see somebody wearing your stuff or you're wearing it, what do they say? What are their comments?   Jessica: People always want to touch it, which is good or bad when they're grabbing for your chest. They want to see it and hear about it and look at it and see what story it tells. In my case, I like stuff to be interesting and different and unusual, not just charms. It's got to have some interesting tale to tell.   Sharon: So, your #neckmess pieces or groups are thematic. You want them to tell a story.   Jessica: Yeah, I like them to tell a story. When you put a bunch of charms together on a bracelet or a necklace, those things are telling a story already regardless of whether it's an official #neckmess or not. They're very personal. I like to group them for a reason. I like them to have a reason to be hanging out together.   Sharon: I'm interested in the way you collect. It seems like little bits and pieces you have in your jewelry box or in your studio. That's the sense I got, that you hold onto things until you need them.   Jessica: That is true. I'm always looking for good design and interesting, different stuff. It doesn't necessarily have to be something that was intended for jewelry. If something catches my eye, I buy it. For my creative process, I'll sit down and start fiddling around and I'll go, “Oh, I remember. I've got that porcelain mask I can add to this piece.” I love having stuff on hand so I can grab it whenever I want.   Sharon: Today, are you making everything yourself for your designs?   Jessica: I make some stuff myself, but I don't do my own casting, for instance. I do some stone setting, but very limited. My bench skills are not great. I wish they were better. That's another goal I have this year, to improve my bench skills. In the interim, I work with people all over the country who do different aspects of production for me.   Sharon: So, you might tell them, “I want a fish with three eyes,” or whatever?   Jessica: For the pieces I create from scratch, I will draw them up and either carve the waxes myself or I'll work with a CAD designer and have them created, CAD being computer assisted design. We'll work on a design, and then I have those pieces cast through the lost wax casting process, and then I embellish them from there.   Sharon: Looking at your Instagram, what percentage of your work is one-of-a-kind stuff you pulled from your own supply and what is cast?   Jessica: All the antique pieces are one of a kind, for the most part. You can find duplication in antiques, but for the most part, all antique things are one of a kind. For the padlock line, I have basic padlock shapes and designs—they have various configurations—and then I embellish those with stones, or on some of them I'll take antique charms and have them attached permanently to the pieces. So, even those are somewhat one of a kind as well. It's hard to identify percentage because it varies. Things are very cyclical. I'll create something and sell tons of them and then the demand drops. I'm not very good at all the stuff you're supposed to do within an antique store or an online shop. Then I'll move onto the next thing. As I said, it's cyclical. Sometimes what I'm selling is 100% stuff I'm making and sometimes it's 25% and the other 75% is antique, one-of-a-kind stuff.

00:58 - Paul's Superpower: Participating in Scary Things 02:19 - EventStorming (https://www.eventstorming.com/) * Optimized For Collaboration * Visualizing Processes * Working Together * Sticky (Post-it) Notes (https://www.post-it.com/3M/en_US/post-it/products/~/Post-it-Products/Notes/?N=4327+5927575+3294529207+3294857497&rt=r3) 08:35 - Regulation: Avoiding Overspecifics * “The Happy Path” * Timeboxing * Parking Lot (https://project-management.fandom.com/wiki/Parking_lot) * Inside Pixar (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13302848/#:~:text=This%20documentary%20series%20of%20personal,culture%20of%20Pixar%20Animation%20Studios.) * Democratization * Known Unknowns 15:32 - Facilitation and Knowledge Sharing * Iteration and Refinement * Knowledge Distillation / Knowledge Crunching * Clarifying Terminology: Semantics is Meaning * Embracing & Exposing Fuzziness (Complexities) 24:20 - Key Events * Narrative Shift * Domain-Driven Design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-driven_design) * Shift in Metaphor 34:22 - Collaboration & Teamwork * Perspective * Mitigating Ambiguity 39:29 - Remote EventStorming and Facilitation * Miro (https://miro.com/) * MURAL (https://www.mural.co/) 47:38 - EventStorming vs Event Sourcing (https://martinfowler.com/eaaDev/EventSourcing.html) * Sacrificing Rigor For Collaboration 51:14 - Resources * The EventStorming Handbook (https://leanpub.com/eventstorming_handbook) * Paul's Upcoming Workshops (https://www.virtualgenius.com/events) * @thepaulrayner (https://twitter.com/thepaulrayner) Reflections: Mandy: Eventstorming and its adjacence to Technical Writing. Damien: You can do this on a small and iterative scale. Jess: Shared understanding. Paul: Being aware of the limitations of ideas you can hold in your head. With visualization, you can hold it in more easily and meaningfully. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDY: Welcome to Episode 271 of Greater Than Code. My name is Mandy Moore and I'm here today with a guest, but returning panelist. I'm happy to see Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Mandy. It's great to see you. I'm also excited to be here today with Damien Burke! DAMIEN: And I am excited to be here with both of you and our guest today, Paul Rayner. Paul Rayner is one of the leading practitioners of EventStorming and domain-driven design. He's the author of The EventStorming Handbook, co-author of Behavior-Driven Development with Cucumber, and the founder and chair of the Explore DDD conference. Welcome to the show, Paul. PAUL: Thanks, Damien. Great to be here. DAMIEN: Great to have you. And so you know, you are prepared, you are ready for our first and most famous question here on Greater Than Code? PAUL: I don't know if I'm ready, or prepared, but I can answer it, I think. [laughter] DAMIEN: I know you have prepared, so I don't know if you are prepared. PAUL: Right. DAMIEN: Either way, here it comes. [chuckles] What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? PAUL: Okay. So a couple of weeks ago, there's a lake near my house, and the neighbors organized a polar plunge. They cut a big hole in the ice and everyone lines up and you basically take turns jumping into the water and then swimming to the other side and climbing out the ladder. So my superpower is participating in a polar plunge and I acquired that by participating with my neighbors. There was barbecue, there was a hot tub, and stuff like that there, too. So it was very, very cool. It's maybe not a superpower, though because there were little kids doing this also. So it's not like it was only me doing it. JESSICA: I'll argue that your superpower is participating in scary things because you're also on this podcast today! PAUL: [chuckles] Yeah, there we go. DAMIEN: Yeah, that is very scary. Nobody had to be fished out of the water? No hospital, hypothermia, any of that? PAUL: No, there was none of that. It was actually a really good time. I mean, being in Denver, blue skies, it was actually quite a nice day to jump into frozen. MANDY: So Paul, you're here today to talk about EventStorming. I want to know what your definition of that is, what it is, and why it's a cool topic to be talking about on Greater Than Code. PAUL: Okay. Well, there's a few things there. So firstly, what is EventStorming? I've been consulting, working with teams for a long time, coaching them and a big part of what I try and do is to try and bridge the gap between what the engineers, the developers, the technical people are trying to build in terms of the software, and what the actual problem is they're trying to solve. EventStorming is a technique for just mapping out a process using sticky notes where you're trying to describe the story of what it is that you're building, how that fits into the business process, and use the sticky notes to layer in variety of information and do it in a collaborative kind of way. So it's really about trying to bridge that communication gap and uncover assumptions that people might have, expose complexity and risk through the process, and with the goal of the software that you write actually being something that solves the real problem that you're trying to solve. I think it's a good topic for Greater Than Code based on what I understand about the podcast, because it certainly impacts the code that you write, touches on that, and connects with the design. But it's really optimized for collaboration, it's optimized for people with different perspectives being able to work together and approach it as visualizing processes that people create, and then working together to be able to do that. So there's a lot of techniques out there that are very much optimized from a developer perspective—UML diagrams, flow charts, and things like that. But EventStorming really, it sacrifices some of that rigor to try and draw people in and provide a structured conversation. I think with the podcast where you're trying to move beyond just the code and dig into the people aspects of this a lot more, I think it really touches on that in a meaningful way. JESSICA: You mentioned that with a bunch of stickies, a bunch of different people, and their perspectives, EventStorming layers in different kinds of information. PAUL: Mm hm. JESSICA: Like what? PAUL: Yeah. So the way that usually approach it is, let's say, we're modeling, visualizing some kind of process like somebody registering for a certain thing, or even somebody, maybe a more common example, purchasing something online and let's say, that we have the development team that's responsible for implementing how somebody might return a product to a merchant, something like that. The way it would work is you describe that process as events where each sticky note represents something that happened in the story of returning a product and then you can layer on questions. So if people have questions, use a different colored sticky note for highlighting things that people might be unsure of, what assumptions they might be making, differences in terminology, exposing those types of unknowns and then once you've sort of laid out that timeline, you can then layer in things like key events, what you might call emergent structures. So as you look at that timeline, what might be some events that are more important than others? JESSICA: Can you make that concrete for me? Give me an example of some events in the return process and then…? PAUL: Yeah. So let's say, the customer receives a product that they want to return. You could have an event like customer receive product and then an event that is customer reported need for return. And then you would have a shift in actor, like a shift in the person doing the work where maybe the merchant has to then merchant sent return package to customer. So we're mapping out each one of these as an event in the process and then the customer receives, or maybe it's a shipping label. The customer receives the shipping label and then they put the items in the package with the shipping label and they return it. And then there would be a bunch of events that the merchant would have to take care of. So the merchant would have to receive that package and then probably have to update the system to record that it's been returned. And then, I imagine there would be processing another order, or something like that. A key event in there might be something like sending out the shipping label and the customer receiving the shipping label because that's a point where the responsibility transfers from the merchant, who is preparing the shipping label and dispatching that, to the customer that's actually receiving it and then having to do something. That's just one, I guess, small example of you can use that to divide that story up into what you might think of as chapters where there's different responsibilities and changes in the narrative. Part of that maybe layering in sticky notes that represent who's doing the work. Like who's the actor, whether it's the merchant, or the customer, and then layering in other information, like the systems that are involved in that such as maybe there's email as a system, maybe there's the actual e-commerce platform, a payment gateway, these kinds of things could be reflected and so on, like there's – [overtalk] JESSICA: Probably integration with the shipper. PAUL: Integration with the shipper, right. So potentially, if you're designing this, you would have some kind of event to go out to the shipper to then know to actually pick up the package and that type of thing. And then once the package is actually delivered back to the merchant, then there would be some kind of event letting the merchant know. It's very hard to describe because I'm trying to picture this in my mind, which is an inherently visual thing. It's probably not that interesting to hear me describing something that's usually done on some kind of either mirror board, like some kind of electronic space, or on a piece of butcher's paper, or – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Something with a lot of sticky notes. PAUL: Something with a lot of sticky notes, right. DAMIEN: Which, I believe for our American listeners, sticky notes are the little square pieces of brightly colored paper with self-adhesive strip on the back. PAUL: Yeah. The stickies. DAMIEN: Stickies. [chuckles] I have a question about this process. I've been involved in very similar processes and it sounds incredibly useful. But as you describe it, one of the concerns I have is how do you avoid getting over specific, or over described? Like you can describe systems until you're talking about the particles in the sun, how do you know when to stop? PAUL: So I think there's a couple of things. Number one is at the start of whatever kind of this activity, this EventStorming is laying out what's the goal? What are we trying to accomplish in terms of the process? With returns, for example, it would be maybe from this event to this event, we're trying to map out what that process looks like and you start with what you might call the happy path. What does it look like when everything goes well? And then you can use pink stickies to represent alternate paths, or things going wrong and capture those. If they're not tied back to this goal, then you can say, “Okay, I think we've got enough level of detail here.” The other thing is time boxing is saying, “Okay, well, we've only got half an hour, or we've only got an hour so let's see how much we can do in that time period,” and then at the end of that, if you still have a lot of questions, then you can – or you feel like, “Oh, we need to dig into some of these areas more.” Then you could schedule a follow up session to dig into that a little bit more. So it's a combination of the people that are participating in this deciding how much level of detail they want to go down to. What I find is it typically is something that as you're going through the activity, you start to see. “Oh, maybe this is too far down in the weeds versus this is the right level.” As a facilitator, I don't typically prescribe that ahead of time, because it's much easier to add sticky notes and then talk about them than it is to have a conversation when there's nothing visualized. I like to visualize it first and lay it out and then it's very easy to say, “Oh, well, this looks like too much detail. So we'll just put a placeholder for that and not worry about out it right now.” It's a little bit of the facilitation technique of having a parking lot where you can say, “Okay, this is a good topic, but maybe we don't need to get down in that right now. Maybe let's refocus back on what it is that we're trying to accomplish.” JESSICA: So there's some regulation that happens naturally during the meeting, during interactions and you can have that regulation in the context of the visual representation, which is the EventStorming, the long row of stickies from one event to the other. PAUL: Right, the timeline that you're building up. So it's a little bit in my mind, I watched last year, I think it was on Netflix. There was a documentary about Pixar and how they do their storyboarding process for their movies and it is exactly that. They storyboard out the movie and iterate over that again and again and again telling that story. What's powerful about that is it's a visual medium so you have someone that is sketching out the main beats of the story and then they're talking it through. Not to say that EventStorming is at that level of rigor, but it has that kind of feel to it of we're laying out these events to tell the story and then we're talking through the story and seeing what we've missed and where we need to add more detail, maybe where we've added too much detail. And then like you said, Jess, there's a certain amount of self-regulation in there in terms of, do we have enough time to go down into this? Is this important right now? JESSICA: And I imagine that when I have questions that go further into detail than we were able to go in the meeting, if I've been in that EventStorming session, I know who to ask. PAUL: That's the idea, yeah. So the pink stickies that we said represent questions, what I like about those is, well, several things. Number one, it democratizes the idea that it's okay to ask questions, which I think is a really powerful technique. I think there's a tendency in meetings for some people to hold back and other people to do all the talking. We've all experienced that. What this tries to do is to democratize that and actually make it not only okay and not only accepted, but encourage that you're expected to ask questions and you're expected to put these sticky notes on here when there's things that you don't understand. JESSICA: Putting the questions on a sticky note, along with the events, the actors, and the things that we do know go on sticky notes, the questions also go on sticky notes. All of these are contributions. PAUL: Exactly. They value contributions and what I love about that is that even people that are new to this process, it's a way for them to ask questions in a way that is kind of friendly to them. I've seen this work really well, for example, with onboarding new team members and also, it encourages the idea that we have different areas of expertise. So in any given process, or any business story, whatever you want to characterize it as, some people are going to know more about some parts of it than others. What typically happens is nobody knows the whole story, but when we work together, we can actually build up an approximation of that whole story and help each other fill in the gaps. So you may have the person that's more on the business, or the product side explaining some terminology. You can capture those explanations on sticky notes as a glossary that you're building up as you go. You can have engineers asking questions about the sequence of events in terms of well, does this one come before that one? And then the other thing that's nice about the questions is it actually as you're going, it's mapping out your ignorance and I see that as a positive thing. JESSICA: The known unknowns. PAUL: Known unknowns. It takes unknown unknowns, which the kind of elephant in the room, and at least gets them up as known unknowns that you can then have a conversation around. Because there's often this situation of a question that somebody's afraid to ask and maybe they're new to the team, or maybe they're just not comfortable asking that type of question. But it gives you actually a map of that ignorance so you can kind of see oh, there's this whole area here that just has a bunch of pink stickies. So that's probably not an area we're ready to work on and we should prioritize. Actually, if this is an area that we need to be working on soon, we should prioritize getting answers to these questions by maybe we need to do a proof of concept, or some UX work, or maybe some kind of prototyping around this area, or like you said, Jess, maybe the person that knows the answers to these questions is just not in this session right now and so, we need to follow up with them, get whatever answers we need, and then come back and revisit things. JESSICA: So you identify areas of risk. PAUL: Yes. Areas of risk, both from a product perspective and also from a technical perspective as well. DAMIEN: So what does it take to have one of these events, or to facilitate one of these events? How do you know when you're ready and you can do it? PAUL: So I've done EventStorming [chuckles] as a conference activity in a hallway with sticky notes and we say, “Okay, let's as a little bit of an icebreaker here –” I usually you do the story of Cinderella. “Let's pick the Disney story of Cinderella and we'll just EventStorm this out. Just everyone, here are some orange sticky notes and a Sharpie, just write down some things that you remember happening in that story,” and then everyone writes a few. We post it up on the hallway wall and then we sequence them as a timeline and then we can basically build up that story in about 5, or 10 minutes from scratch. With a business process, it's not that different. It's like, okay, we're going to do returns, or something like that and if people are already familiar with the technique, then just give them a minute, or so to think of some things that they know that would happen in that process. And then they do that individually and then we just post them up on the timeline and then sequence them as a group and it can happen really quickly. And then everything from there is refinement. Iteration and refinement over what you've put up as that initial skeleton. DAMIEN: Do you ever find that a team comes back a week, or a day, or a month later and goes, “Oh, there is this big gap in our narrative because nobody in this room understood the warehouse needed to be reordered in order to send this thing down”? PAUL: Oh, for sure. Sometimes it's big gaps. Sometimes it's a huge cluster of pink sticky notes that represents an area where there's just a lot of risk and unknowns that the team maybe hasn't thought about all that much. Like you said, it could be there's this third-party thing that it wasn't until everyone got in a room and kind of started to map it out, that they realized that there was this gap in their knowledge. JESSICA: Yeah. Although, you could completely miss it if there's nobody from the warehouse in the room and nobody has any idea that you need to tell the warehouse to expect this return. PAUL: Right and so, part of that is putting a little bit of thought into who would need to be part of this and in a certain way, playing devil's advocate in terms of what don't we know, what haven't we thought of. So it encourages that sense of curiosity with this and it's a little bit different from – Some of the listeners maybe have experienced user story mapping and other techniques like that. Those tend to be focused on understanding a process, but they're very much geared towards okay, how do we then figure out how we're going to code up this feature and how do we slice it up into stories and prioritize that. So it's similar in terms of sticky notes, but the emphasis in EventStorming is more on understanding together, the problem that we're trying to address from a business perspective. JESSICA: Knowledge pulling. PAUL: Yeah. Knowledge pulling, knowledge distillation, those types of idea years, and that kind of mindset. So not just jumping straight to code, but trying to get a little bit of a shared understanding of what all is the thing that we're trying to actually work on here. JESSICA: Eric Evans calls it knowledge crunching. PAUL: Yes, Eric called it knowledge crunching. DAMIEN: I love that phrase, that shared understanding. That's what we, as product teams, are generating is a shared understanding both, captured in our documentation, in our code, and before that, I guess on large sheets of butcher paper. [laughs] PAUL: Well, and it could be a quick exercise of okay, we're going to be working on some new feature and let's just spend 15 minutes just mapping it out to get a sense of, are we on the same page with this? JESSICA: Right, because sometimes it's not even about we think we need to know something, it's do we know enough? Let's find out. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: And is that knowledge shared among us? PAUL: Right, and maybe exposing, like it could be as simple as slightly different terminology, or slightly different understanding of terminology between people that can have a big impact in terms of that. I was teaching a workshop last night where we were talking about this, where somebody had written the event. So there was a repair process that a third-party repair company would handle and then the event that closed that process off, they called case closed. So then the question becomes well, what does case closed mean? Because the word case – [overtalk] JESSICA: [laughs] It's like what's the definition of done? PAUL: Right, exactly. [laughter] Because that word case didn't show up anywhere earlier in the process. So is this like a new concept? Because the thing that kicks off the process is repair purchase order created and at the end of the process, it's said case closed. So then the question becomes well, is case closed really, is that a new concept that we actually need to implement here? Or is this another way of saying that we are getting a copy of that repair purchase order back that and it's been updated with details about what the repair involved? Or maybe it's something like repair purchase order closed. So it's kind of forcing us to clarify terminology, which may seem a little bit pedantic, but that's what's going to end up in the code. If you can get some of those things exposed a little earlier before you actually jump to code and get people on the same page and surface any sort of differences in terminology and misunderstandings, I think that can be super helpful for everyone. JESSICA: Yeah. Some people say it's just semantics. Semantics' meaning, its only meaning, this is only about out what this step actually means because when you put it in the code, the code is crystal clear. It is going to do exactly what it does and whether that clarity matches the shared understanding that we think we have oh, that's the difference between a bug and a working system. DAMIEN: [laughs] That's beautiful. It's only meaning. [laughs] JESSICA: Right? Yeah. But this is what makes programming hard is that pedanticness. The computer is the ultimate pedant. DAMIEN: Pedant. You're going to be pedantic about it. [laughter] PAUL: I see what you did there. [laughter] DAMIEN: And that is the occupation, right? That is what we do is look at and create systems and then make them precise. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: In a way that actually well, is precise. [laughs] JESSICA: Right, and the power of our human language is that it's not precise, that it allows for ambiguity, and therefore, a much broader range of meaning. But as developers, it's our job to be precise. We have to be precise to the computers. It helps tremendously to be precise with each other. DAMIEN: Yeah, and I think that's actually the power of human cognition is that it's not precise. We are very, very fuzzy machines and anyone who tries to pretend otherwise will be greatly disappointed. Ask me how I know. [laughter] PAUL: Well, and I think what I'm trying to do with something like EventStorming is to embrace the fuzziness, is to say that that's actually an asset and we want to embrace that and expose that fuzziness, that messiness. Because the processes we have and work with are often inherently complex. We are trying to provide some visual representation of that so we can actually get our head around, or our minds around the language complexities, the meanings, and drive in a little bit to that meaning. JESSICA: So when the sticky notes pile on top of each other, that's a feature. PAUL: It is. Going back to that example I was just talking about, let's say, there's a bunch of, like we do the initial part of this for a minute, or so where people are creating sticky notes and let's say, we end up with four, or five sticky notes written by different people on top of each other that end up on the timeline that all say pretty much the same thing with slight variations. JESSICA: Let's say, case closed, request closed. PAUL: Case closed, repair purchase order closed, repair purchase order updated, repair purchase order sent. So from a meaning perspective, I look at that and I say, “That's gold in terms of information,” because that's showing us that there's a richness here. Firstly, that's a very memorable thing that's happening in the timeline – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh and it has multiple things. PAUL: That maybe means it's a key event. Right, and then what is the meaning? Are these the same things? Are they different things? Maybe we don't have enough time in that session to dig into that, but if we're going to implement something around that, or work with something around that, then we're going to at some point need some clarity around the language, the terminology, and what these concepts mean. Also, the sequence as well, because it might be that there's actually multiple events being expressed there that need to be teased apart. DAMIEN: You used this phrase a couple times, “key event,” and since you've used it a couple times, I think it might be key. [laughter] Can you tell us a little bit about what a key event is? What makes something a key event? PAUL: Yeah, the example I like to use is from the Cinderella story. So if you think about the story of Cinderella, one of the things, when people are doing that as an icebreaker, they always end up being multiple copies of the event that usually is something like shoe lost, or slipper lost, or glass slipper lost. There's something about that event that makes it memorable, firstly and then there's something about that event that makes it pivotal in the story. For those that are not familiar with the story [chuckles]—I am because I've EventStormed this thing maybe a hundred times—but there's this part. Another key event is the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic at the start and she actually describes a business policy. She says, “The magic is going to run out at midnight,” and like all business policies, it's vague [laughter] and it's unclear as to what it means because – [overtalk] JESSICA: The carriage disappears, the dress disappears, but not the slipper that fell off. PAUL: Exactly. There's this exception that for some bizarre reason, to move the plot forward, the slipper stays. But then the definition of midnight is very hazy because what she's actually describing, in software terms, is a long running process of the clock banging 12 times, which is what midnight means is the time between the first and the twelfth and during that time, the magic is slowly unraveling. JESSICA: So midnight is a duration, not an instant. PAUL: Exactly. Yes, it's a process, not an event. So coming back to the question that Damien asked about key events. That slipper being lost is a key event in that story, I think because it actually is a shift in narrative. Up until that point in the story, it's the story of Cinderella and then after that, once the slipper is lost, it becomes the story of the prince looking for Cinderella. And then at the end, you get the day tomorrow, the stuff that happens with that slipper at the end of the story. Another key event would be like the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic. DAMIEN: [chuckles] It seems like these are necessary events, right? If the slipper is not lost, if the fairy godmother doesn't do magic, you don't have the story of Cinderella. PAUL: Right. These are narrative turns, right? DAMIEN: Yeah. PAUL: These are points of the story shifts and so, key events can sometimes be a narrative shift where it's driving the story forward in a business process. Something like, let's say, you're working on an e-commerce system, like order submitted is a key event because you are adding items to a shopping cart and then at some point, you make a decision to submit the order and then at that point, it transitions from order being a draft thing that is in a state of flux to it actually becomes essentially immutable and gets passed over to fulfilment. So there's a shift in responsibility and actor between these two as well just like between Cinderella and the prince. JESSICA: A shift in who is driving the story forward. PAUL: Right. Yeah. So it's who is driving the story forward. So these key events often function as a shift in actor, a shift in who's driving the story forward, or who has responsibility. They also often indicate a handoff because of that from one group to another in an organization. Something like a sales process that terminates in contract signed. That key event is also the goal of the sales process. The goal is to get to contract signed and then once that happens, there's usually a transition to say, an onboarding group that actually onboards the new customer in the case of a sales process for a new customer, or in e-commerce, it would be the fulfillment part, the warehousing part that Jess was talking about earlier. That's actually responsible for the fulfillment piece, which is they take that order, they create a package, they put all the items in the package, create the shipping label, and ship it out to the customer. JESSICA: And in domain-driven design, you talked about the shift from order being a fluid thing that's changing as people add stuff to their cart to order being immutable. The word order has different meanings for the web site where you're buying stuff and the fulfillment system, there's a shift in that term. PAUL: Right, and that often happens around a key event, or a pivotal event is that there's a shift from one, you might think of it as context, or language over to another. So preorder submission, it's functioning as a draft order, but what it's actually typically called is a shopping cart and a shopping cart is not the same as an order. It's a great metaphor because there is no physical cart, but we all know what that means as a metaphor. A shopping cart is a completely different metaphor from an order, but we're able to understand that thread of continuity between I have this interactive process of taking items, or products, putting them in the shopping cart, or out again. And then at some point that shopping cart, which is functioning as a draft order, actually it becomes an order that has been submitted and then it gets – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Yeah, the metaphor doesn't really work until that transition. You have a shopping cart and then you click purchase and now what? [laughs] You're not going to the register and ringing it up, that doesn't make any sense. [chuckles] The metaphor kind of has to end there. JESSICA: You're not leaving the cart in the corral in the parking lot. [laughter] PAUL: Well, I think what they're trying to do is when you think about going through the purchase process at a store, you take your items up in the shopping cart and then at that point, you transition into a financial transaction that has to occur that then if you were at a big box electronic store, or something, eventually, you would make the payment. You would submit payment. That would be the key events and that payment is accepted and then you receive a receipt, which is kind of the in-person version of a record of your order that you've made because you have to bring the receipt back. DAMIEN: It sort of works if the thing you're putting in the shopping cart are those little cards. When they don't want to put things on the shelf, they have a card, you pick it up, and you take it to register. They ring it up, they give you a receipt, and hopefully, the thing shows up in the mail someday, or someone goes to the warehouse and goes gets it. PAUL: We've all done that. [chuckles] Sometimes it shows up. Sometimes it doesn't. JESSICA: That's an interesting point that at key events, there can be a shift in metaphor. PAUL: Yes. Often, there is. So for example, I mentioned earlier, a sales process ending in a contract and then once the contract is signed, the team – let's say, you're signing on a new customer, for a SaaS service, or something like that. Once they've signed the contract, the conversation isn't really about the contract anymore. It's about what do we need to do to onboard this customer. Up until that point, the emphasis is maybe on payment, legal disclosures, and things like that. But then the focus shifts after the contract is signed to more of an operational focus of how do we get the data in, how do we set up their accounts correctly, that type of thing. JESSICA: The contract is an input to that process. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Whereas, it was the output, the big goal of the sales process. PAUL: Yes, exactly. So these key events also function from a systems perspective, when you think about moving this to code that event then becomes almost like a message potentially. Could be implemented as say, a message that's being passed from the sales system through to the onboarding system, or something like that. So it functions as the integration point between those two, where the language has to be translated from one context to another. JESSICA: And it's an integration point we can define carefully so that makes it a strong boundary and a good place to divide the system. DAMIEN: Nice. PAUL: Right. So that's where it starts to connect to some of the things that people really care about these days in terms of system decomposition and things like that. Because you can start thinking about based on a process view of this, based on a behavior view of this, if we treat these key events as potential emergent boundaries in a process, like we've been describing, that we discover through mapping out the process, then that can give us some clues as to hmm maybe these boundaries don't exist in the system right now, but they could. These could be places where we start to tease things apart. JESSICA: Right. Where you start breaking out separate services and then when you get down to the user story level, the user stories expect a consistent language within themselves. You're not going to go from cart to return purchase in a case. PAUL: [laughs] Right. JESSICA: In a single user story. User stories are smaller scope and work within a single language. PAUL: Right and so, I think the connection there in my mind is user stories have to be written in some kind of language, within some language context and mapping out the process can help you understand where you are in that context and then also understand, like if you think about a process that maybe has a sales part of the process and then an onboarding part, it'll often be the case that there's different development teams that are focusing on different parts of that process. So it provides a way of them seeing what their integration point is and what might need to happen across that integration point. If they were to either integrate to different systems, or if they're trying to tease apart an existing system. To use Michael Feathers' term, what might be a “scene” that we could put in here that would allow us to start teasing these things apart. And doing it with the knowledge of the product people that are part of the visualization, too is that this isn't something typically that engineers do exclusively from a technical perspective. The idea with EventStorming is you are also bringing in other perspectives like product, business, stakeholders, and anyone that might have more of that business perspective in terms of what the goals of the process are and what the steps are in the process. MID-ROLL: And now a quick word from our sponsor. I hear people say the VPNs have a reputation for slowing down your internet speed, but not with NordVPN, because it's the fastest VPN in the world. I don't have to sacrifice internet speed for better security. With NordVPN, my internet traffic is routed through a secure encrypted tunnel, which protects my data and privacy. I can also have it on up to six devices like my laptop, phone, TV, iPad—all my devices are protected. Grab your exclusive NordVPN deal by going to nordvpn.com/gtc, or use the code GTC to get a huge discount on your NordVPN plan plus one additional month for free. Plus, a bonus gift! It's completely risk-free with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. JESSICA: As a developer, it's so important to understand what those goals are, because that lets us make good decisions when we're down in the weeds and getting super precise. PAUL: Right, I think so. I think often, I see teams that are implementing stories, but not really understanding the why behind that in terms of maybe they get here's the functionality on delivering and how that fits into the system. But like I talked about before, when you're driving a process towards a key event, that becomes the goal of that subprocess. So the question then becomes how does the functionality that I'm going to implement that's described in this user story actually move people towards that goal and maybe there's a better way of implementing it to actually get them there. DAMIEN: Yeah, it's always important to keep that in mind, because there's always going to be ambiguity until you have a running system, or ran system, honestly. JESSICA: Yeah! DAMIEN: There's always going to be ambiguity, which it is our job as people writing code to manage and we need to know. Nobody's going to tell us exactly what's going to happen because that's our job. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: It's like if the developer had a user story that Cinderella's slipper fell off, but they do didn't realize that the goal of that was that the prince picked it up, then they might be like, “Oh, slipper broke. That's fine.” PAUL: Yeah. JESSICA: It's off the foot. Check the box. PAUL: Let's create a glass slipper factory implementer object [laughter] so that we can just create more of those. JESSICA: Oh, yeah. What, you wanted a method slip off in one piece? You didn't say that. I've created crush! PAUL: Right. [laughter] Yeah. So I think sometimes there's this potential to get lost in the weeds of the everyday development work that is happening and I like to tie it back to what is the actual story that we're supporting. And then sometimes what people think of as exception cases, like an example might be going back to that merchant return example is what if they issue the shipper label, but the buyer never receives it. We may say, “Well, that's never going to happen,” or “That's unlikely.” But visualizing that case, you may say, “That's actually a strong possibility. How do we handle that case and bake that into the design so that it actually reflects what we're trying to do?” JESSICA: And then you make an event that just triggers two weeks later that says, “Check whether customer received label.” PAUL: Yes, exactly. One thing you can do as well is like – so that's one possibility of solving it. The idea what EventStorming can let you do is say, “Well, that's one way of doing it. Are there any other options in terms of how we could handle this, let's visualize.” With any exception case, or something, you could say, “Well, let's try solving this a few different ways. Just quickly come up with some different ideas and then we can pull the best of those ideas into that.” So the idea when you're modeling is to say, “Okay, well, there's probably more than one way to address this. So maybe let's get a few ideas on the table and then pick the best out of these.” JESSICA: Or address it at multiple levels. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: A fallback for the entire process is customer contact support again. PAUL: Right, and that may be the simple answer in that kind of case. What we're trying to do, though is to visualize that case as an option and then talk about it, have a structured conversation around it, say, “Well, how would we handle that?” Which I think from a product management perspective is a key thing to do is to engage the engineers in saying, “Well, what are some different ways that we could handle this and solve this?” If you have people that are doing responsibility primarily for testing in that, then having them weigh in on, well, how would we test this? What kind of test cases might we need to handle for this? So it's getting – [overtalk] JESSICA: How will we know it worked? PAUL: Different perspectives and opinions on the table earlier rather than later. JESSICA: And it's cheap. It's cheap, people. It's a couple hours and a lot of post-its. You can even buy the generic post-its. We went to Office Depot yesterday, it's $10 for 5 little Post-it pads, [laughter] or 25 Office Depot brand post-it pads. They don't have to stay on the wall very long; the cheap ones will work. PAUL: [laughs] So those all work and then it depends if you have shares in 3M, I guess, with you. [laughter] Or Office Depot, depending which road you want to go down. [laughter] JESSICA: Or if you really care about that shade of pale purple, which I do. PAUL: Right. I mean, what's been fascinating to me is in the last 2 years with switching to remote work and that is so much of, 95% of the EventStorming I do these days is on a collaborative whiteboard tool like Miro, or MURAL, which I don't know why those two product names are almost exactly the same. But then it's even cheaper because you can sign up for a free account, invite a few people, and then just start adding sticky notes to some virtual whiteboard and do it from home. There's a bunch of things that you can do on tool like that with copy pasting, moving groups of sticky notes around, rearranging things, and ordering things much – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you never run out of wall. PAUL: Yeah. The idea with the butcher's paper in a physical workshop, in-person workshop is you're trying to create a sense of unending modeling space that you can use. That you get for free when you use online collaborative whiteboarding tool. It's just there out of – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you can zoom in. PAUL: And you zoom in and out. Yeah. There's a – [overtalk] JESSICA: Stickies on your stickies on your stickies. [laughter] I'm not necessarily recommending that, but you can do it. PAUL: Right. The group I was working with last night, they'd actually gone to town using Miro emojis. They had something bad happen in the project and they've got the horror emoji [laughter] and then they've got all kinds of and then copy pasting images off the internet for things. JESSICA: Nice. PAUL: So yeah, can make it even more fun. JESSICA: Okay. So it's less physical, but in a lot of ways it can be more expressive, PAUL: I think so. More expressive and just as engaging and it can break down the geographical barriers. I've done sessions where we've had people simultaneously spread in multiple occasions across the US and Europe in the same session, all participating in real-time. If you're doing it remote, I like to keep it short. So maybe we do like a 2-hour session with a 10- or 15-minute break in the middle, because you're trying to manage people's energy and keep them focused and it's hard to do that when you just keep going. MANDY: I kind of want to talk a little bit about facilitation and how you facilitate these kind of workshops and what you do, engage people and keep them interested. PAUL: Yeah. So I think that it depends a little bit on the level of detail we're working at. If it's at the level of a few team members trying to figure out a feature, then it can be very informal. Not a lot of facilitation required. Let's just write down what the goal is and then go through the process of brainstorming a few stickies, laying it out, and then sequencing it as a timeline, adding questions. It doesn't require a lot of facilitation hand. I think the key thing is just making sure that people are writing down their questions and that it's time boxed. So quitting while people are still interested and then [laughter] at the end, before you finish, having a little bit of a conversation around what might the next steps be. Like what did we learn? You could do a couple of minutes retrospective, add a sticky note for something you learned in this session, and then what do you see as our next steps and then move on from there with whatever action items come out of that. So that one doesn't require, I think a lot of facilitation and people can get up and running with that pretty quickly. I also facilitate workshops that are a lot more involved where it's at the other end of the spectrum, where it's a big picture workshop where we're mapping out maybe an entire value stream for an organization. We may have a dozen, 20 people involved in a session like that representing different departments, different organizational silos and in that case, it requires a lot more planning, a lot more thinking through what the goal of the workshop is, who would you need to invite? Because there's a lot more detail involved and a lot more people involved, that could be four, or five multi-hour sessions spread over multiple days to be able to map out an entire value stream from soup to nuts. And then usually the goal of something like that is some kind of system modernization effort, or maybe spinning up a new project, or decomposing a legacy system, or even understanding what a legacy system does, or process improvement that will result inevitably in some software development in certain places. I did a workshop like that, I think last August and out of that, we identified a major bottleneck in the process that everyone in the workshop, I think it was just a bunch of pink stickies in one area that it got called the hot mess. [laughter] It was one area and what was happening was there were several major business concerns that were all coupled together in this system. They actually ended up spinning up a development team to focus on teasing apart the hot mess to figure out how do we decompose that down? JESSICA: Yes. PAUL: As far as I know, that effort was still ongoing as of December. I'm assuming that's still running because it was prioritized as we need to be able to decompose this part of this system to be able to grow and scale to where we want to get to. JESSICA: Yeah. That's a major business risk that they've got. They at least got clarity about where it is. PAUL: Right. Yeah, and what we did from there is I coached the developers through that process over several months. So we actually EventStormed it out at a much lower level. Once we figured out what the hot mess was, let's map it out and then they combined that with some flow charting and a bunch of other more engineering, kind of oriented visualization techniques, state machines, things like that to try and get a handle on what was going on. DAMIEN: We'll get UML in there eventually, right? PAUL: Eventually. [laughter] You can't do software development without some kind of state machine, sequence diagram. JESSICA: And it's approximating UML. You can't do it. You can't do it. [laughter] You will either use it, or you will derive a pigeon form of it. PAUL: Right. Well, I still use it for state diagrams and sequence diagrams when I'm down at that technical level. What I find is that there's a certain level of rigor that UML requires for a sequence diagram, or something like that that seems to get in the way of collaboration. So EventStorming sacrifices some of that rigor to be able to draw in everyone and have a low bar of entry to having people participate. DAMIEN: That's a huge insight. Why do you think that is? Is it the inability to hold that much information at a high level of rigor, or just people not used to working at that sort of precision and rigor? PAUL: I think that when I'm working with people that are not hands-on coders, they are in the everyday, like say, product managers, or stakeholders, to use those terms. They're in the everyday details of how the business process works and they tend to think of that process more as a series of steps that they're going through in a very specific kind of way. Like, I'm shipping a certain product, or supporting the shipping. or returning of certain types of products, those kinds of things. Whereas, as developers, we tend to think of it more in terms of the abstractions of the system and what we're trying to implement in the code. So the idea of being able to tell the story of a process in terms of the events that happen is a very natural thing, I find for people from a business perspective to do because that's how they tend to think about it. Whereas, I think as programmers, we're often taught not so much to think about behavior as a sequence of things happening, but more as the structure we've been taught to design in terms of structures and relationships rather than flow. JESSICA: Yet that's changing with event sourcing. PAUL: I think so. EventStorming and event sourcing become a very natural complement for each other and even event-driven architecture, or any event-driven messaging, whatever it happens to be. The gap between modeling using EventStorming and then designing some kind of event-driven distributed system, or even not distributed, but still event-driven is much more natural than trying to do something like an entity relationship diagram and they'd get from that to some kind of meaningful understanding of what's the story of how these functions and features are going to work. JESSICA: On the topic of sacrificing rigor for collaboration, I think you have to sacrifice rigor to work across content texts because you will find contradictions between them. The language does have different meaning before and after the order is submitted and you have to allow for that in the collaboration. It's not that you're not going to have the rigor. It's more that you're postponing it, you're scoping it as separately. This meeting is about the higher level and you need completeness over consistency. DAMIEN: Yeah. I feel like almost you have to sacrifice rigor to be effective in most roles and in that way, sacrifice is even the wrong word. Most of the things that we do as human beings do not allow for the sort of rigor of the things that we do as software engineers and things that computers do. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: And it's just, the world doesn't work that way. PAUL: Right. Well, and it's the focus in EventStorming on exploration, discovery, and urgent ideas versus rigor is more about not so much exploring and discovery, but about converging on certain things. So when someone says pedant and the other person says pedant, or vice versa, that tends to shut down the conversation because now you are trying to converge on some agreed upon term versus saying, “Well, let's explore a bunch of different ways this could be expressed and temporarily defer trying converge on.” JESSICA: Later in Slack, we'll vote. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Okay. So standardize later. PAUL: Yes. Standardize, converge later, and for now, let's kind of hold that at arm's length so that we can uncover and discover different perspectives on this in terms of how the story works and then add regulator when we go to code and then you may discover things in code where there are implicit concepts that you then need to take back to the modeling to try and figure out well, how do we express this? Coming up with some kind of term in the code and being able to go from there. JESSICA: Right. Some sort of potential return because it hasn't happened yet. PAUL: Exactly. So maybe it's a potential, maybe it's some other kind of potential return, like pending return, maybe we don't call it a return at all. JESSICA: Or disliked item because we could – or unsatisfactory item because we could intercept that and try to like, “Hey, how about we send you the screws that we're missing?” PAUL: Right. Yeah, maybe the answer is not a return at all. JESSICA: Yeah. PAUL: But maybe the case is that the customer says they want to return it, but you actually find a way to get them to buy more stuff by sending them something else that they would be happy with. So the idea is we're trying to promote discovery thinking when we are talking about how to understand certain problems and how to solve them rather than closing off options too soon. MANDY: So, Paul, I know you do give these workshops. Is there anything? Where can people find you? How can people learn more? How can people hire you to facilitate a workshop and get in touch with you? PAUL: Okay. Well, in terms of resources, Damien had mentioned at the beginning, I have an eBook up on Leanpub, The EventStorming Handbook, so if people are interested in learning more, they can get that. And then I do workshop facilitation and training through my company, Virtual Genius. They can go to virtualgenius.com and look at what training is available. It's all online these days, so they can participate from anywhere. We have some public workshops coming up in the coming months. And then they can find me, I'm @ThePaulRayner on Twitter, just to differentiate me from all the indefinite articles that are out there. [laughter] MANDY: Sounds good. Well, let's head into reflections. I can start. I just was thinking while we were talking about this episode, about how closely this ties into my background in professional writing, technical writing to be exact, and just how you have this process to lay out exactly what steps need to be taken and to differentiate when people say the same things and thinking about, “Well, they're saying the same things, but the words matter,” and to get pedantic, that can be a good thing, especially when you are writing technical documents and how-tos. I remember still, my first job being a technical writer and looking at people in a machine shop who it was like, first, you do this, then you do this, then you do this and to me, I was like, “This is so boring.” But it makes sense and it matters. So this has been a really good way for me to think about it as a newbie just likening it to technical writing. JESSICA: Yeah. Technical writing has to tell that story. DAMIEN: I'm going to be reflecting on this has been such a great conversation and I feel like I have a lot of familiarity with at least a very similar process. I brought up all my fears that come from them, which is like, what if we don't have the right person in the room? What if there's something we didn't discover? And you said something about how you can do this in 5 minutes and how you can do this in 15 minutes and I realized, “Oh, this process doesn't have to be the 6-hour things that I've participated in and facilitated in. It can also be done more smaller and more iteratively and I can bring this sort of same process and thought process into more of the daily work.” So that's super helpful for me. JESSICA: I want to reflect on a phrase that Paul said and then Damien emphasized, which is shared understanding. It's what we're trying to get to in EventStorming across teams and across functions. I think it's also like what we're constantly trying to get to as humans. We value shared understanding so much because we're trapped in our heads and my experience in my head is never going to be the same as your experience in your head. But at some point, we share the same physical world. So if we can get that visual representation, if we can be talking together about something in that visual world, we can pass ideas back and forth more meaningfully. We can achieve this shared understanding. We can build something together. And that feels so good. I think that that constant building of shared understanding is a lot of what it means to be human and I get really excited when I get to do that at work. PAUL: I think I would just add to that as well is being human, I'm very much aware of limitations in terms of how many ideas I can hold in my head at any one time. I know the times where I've been in the experience that many describe where someone's giving me a list of steps to follow and things like that, inevitably I'm like, “Well, I remember like the first two, maybe three,” and then everything after that is kind of Charlie Brown. What, what, why? [laughter] I don't remember anything they said from that point on. But when I can visualize something, then I can take it in one go. I can see it and we're building it together. So for me, it's a little bit of a mind hack in terms of getting over the limitations of how many things I can keep in my mind at one time. Also, like you said, Jess, getting those things out of my mind and out of other people's minds into a shared space where we can actually collaborate on them together, I think that's really important to be able to do that in a meaningful way. MANDY: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Paul. We really enjoyed this discussion. And if you, as listeners, would like to continue this conversation, please head over to Patreon.com/greaterthancode. We have a Slack channel. You can pledge and donate to sponsor us as little as a dollar and you can come in, hang out, talk with us about these episodes. If not, give me a DM on Twitter and let me know, and I'll let you in anyway because [laughter] that's what we do here at Greater Than Code. PAUL: Because Mandy's awesome. MANDY: [laughs] Thank you, Paul. With that, thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you again next week. Special Guest: Paul Rayner.

After years of listening to the show Michelle Dobbs reached out to Christy for a wedding planning consultation regarding her cocktail style wedding reception. If you've never heard of this kind of wedding, you're not alone. There's no sit down dinner and well you're pretty much just throwing out the rulebook, so if you make the decision to have this kind of wedding reception then you'd had better be ready to JUST DO IT! This episode is all about the planning, execution and retrospective take-aways after the big day. Big Takeaways * For a cocktail style event/wedding, have something that happens every 30-minutes or so. It can just be an announcement, or something bigger, but it helps with the passage of time. * For seating: set it up like you would see at a bar or restaurant so it encourages people to not settle down on to one table, but to move around and sit where they want. * Writing your own vows and privately sharing them was a huge relief and felt very intimate. * We wrote a note to each couple/guest and had them exchange that note for a polaroid picture and we had them take an extra polaroid to take home. This ended up being one of our favorite parts of the day. Guests loved it - it's what most ppl posted on FB and IG that night! Variety of seating * I think this is the biggest reason the cocktail vibe worked. And it totally did! No one picked a table and camped out, actually - lots of moving around. Some cocktail tables had barstools and they were a huge hit. * I also added a note in the invites on what to expect and I think that really helped people get it. * People loved the tray - pass drinks. * I did end up doing the "order of events" sign - Icalled it "here's the plan" which people complimented because that's so me, which was fun. And I think that helped people know what food was when and what to look forward to * Speeches were my favorite part and we took a note from Christy in that we let everyone who wanted to speak go for it. We had 5 speeches total and it was amazing. * Something I didn't do and really needed to - I did not make a list of formal photos I wanted and only scheduled one hour for those with no hair/makeup buffer. So we ended up starting pics at 4:30 because hair/makeup ran late duh! and ended up with very few posed pictures and honestly we really did want these. Jessica's Takeaways (after the wedding) : * Everyone says the day goes by so fast. I had no idea! * There is a lot I didn't see. * I was present for every conversation I had but not much else. If I could go back I would be more intentional about building in time to see the reception space and take a moment to take a deep breath and really take it in rather than just keep moving. * We eloped last year and this was our reception/one-year anniversary celebration. And I just want to say this should really be a thing people do outside of a pandemic! It's what we wanted to do initially but didn't because we didn't know logistically how it would work, if people would get it, and if it would seem like rude? In the end, we did exactly what we wanted and the benefits were so much more than we could have imagined. * We wrote our own vows and since we read them to each other without a bigaudience, we wrote exactly what we wanted to say. Without worrying about if the other person would be funnier, or more romantic, or write way more or less. We enjoyed each other all day and it was the most romantic and connected either of us had ever felt. * Get married andcelebrate in a way that works for you! * At the end of the day, it'll be you and your partner at home holding on to those memories. Links We Referenced manscaped.com (https://www.manscaped.com) aisleplanner.com (https://aisleplanner.com) Quotes _ “For us, we wrote our own vows. And since we got to read them, just to each other, without a big audience, we wrote exactly what we wanted to say. Without worrying about if the other person would be funnier, or more romantic, or write way less or way more.” _- Jessica “If I walk into a party, I am pretty anxious about what is the expectation of me? And also, when do I get to eat?” - Jessica “ It was more amazing to have all of our people in one place. [...] I felt like beaming love towards us. That was more incredible than I could have expected, because you're not in ever that situation really. There's no other time.” - Jessica Plan your wedding using The Big Wedding Planning Master Class (https://www.thebigweddingplanningmasterclass.com/). A self-paced digital course created with love for you by Christy & Michelle. The Big Wedding Planning Podcast is... * Hosted and produced by Christy Matthews and Michelle Martinez. * Edited by Veronica Gruba. * Music by Steph Altman of Mophonics (https://www.mophonics.com/). * On Instagram @thebigweddingplanningpodcast and be sure to use #planthatwedding when posting, so you can get our attention! * Inviting you to become part of our Facebook Group! Join us and our amazing members. Just search for The Big Wedding Planning Podcast Community on Facebook. * Easy to get in touch with. Email us at thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com or Call and leave a message at 415-723-1625 and you might hear your voice on an episode * On Patreon. Become a member (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast) and with as little as $5 per month, you get bonus episodes, special newsletters and Zoom Cocktail Hours with Christy & Michelle! Our Partners (https://www.thebigweddingplanningpodcast.com/partners) Special Deals for Listeners - TBWPP Enthusiastically Approved! Wedfuly (https://wedfuly.com/bigwedding/) SuitShop (https://suitshop.com/?utm_campaign=EngagedLeads&utm_content=BWPPPartnership&utm_medium=BWPP&utm_source=ReferralLink) The Flashdance (https://www.theflashdance.com/virtual-party-the-big-wedding-planning-podcast) Cactus Collective (https://www.cactus-collective.com/the-big-wedding-planning-podcast/) Unboring Wedding Academy (https://www.unboringweddingacademy.com/bigwedding/)

Jessica Lorion is the host and producer of the Mamas in Training podcast. She supports pregnant women and aspiring moms on their journey into motherhood. What makes her show different from other pregnancy and motherhood podcasts is that she is NOT yet a mom. An autoimmune disease has delayed her journey into motherhood, so she has decided to learn right alongside her audience. With a background in performing on stage — acting and singing — her mission is to spread the importance of studying motherhood. She intends to use her voice and desire to connect with women everywhere, to share the lessons she has learned and give community to those in need. Learn more about Jessica. Learn more about The Passionistas Project.   Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking with Jessica Lorion, the host and producer of the Mamas and Training podcast. She supports pregnant women and aspiring moms on their journey into motherhood. And what makes her show so different from other pregnancy and motherhood podcasts is that she is not yet a mother. She has an auto-immune disease has delayed her journey into motherhood, and she's decided to learn right alongside her audience. With a background in performing on stage in front of camera, as well as being a professional singer, her mission is to spread the importance of studying motherhood. She intends to use her voice and desire to connect with women everywhere, to learn the lessons that she's learned and give community to those in need. So please welcome to the show, Jessica Lorion. Jessica: It's so nice to be here. I, I really, really appreciate it. It's wonderful to sit down with. Thank you both. Passionistas: It's really great to have you here. So what's the one thing that you're most passionate about? Jessica: You know, it's interesting because as you were reading the intro, I was thinking about it and. First of all, I love what you do. I think it's really important for women to be reminded of their passions and to be reminded that there's more to us than whether it's a job or motherhood or whatever the million roles are that we usually carry. Um, so I think that's so important, important what you're doing, but I also find it interesting how passions can shift and adjust and take more priority than others at different times of your life. And so growing up and throughout college, high school, beyond college, professionally here and living in New York city, my main passion has always been performing, um, acting, singing, dancing, performing in any capacity, really. And that's what I went to school for. That's what I did professionally. Um, and then, you know,  I still have that passion and that's never going to stop, and it's going to be something that I'll be giving more energy to. Coming up soon, but COVID sorta hit. And I had had dabbled in this podcast and then when COVID hit and I, all the performing opportunities went away and online and voice was so prevalent. I was like, well, this is a perfect opportunity to dive fully into this other hobby that I had, because it was truly just a hobby. And then as I was putting more energy and effort into it, and I was realizing that. Why behind what I was doing. I was like feeling this passion kind of bubble up and grow, literally develop. And so it's interesting because now I guess I would say my, my second to acting one of my biggest passions is definitely this podcast and more than the podcast. Cause it's not. Of course, I'd love to have more downloads and I'd love to, you know, do all this stuff monetization wise, but the real root of the podcast and the mission and what I'm doing is the fact that I'm able to connect to these women. I'm able to reach out and have real relationships. Through meetings that we meet every month and online, social media, everything, but these women that sometimes have no support and no, no community, no even family. Um, and so that's been the biggest passion through it all. Passionistas: We'll dive into that more in a little bit, but let's start with, when you first had that spark for performing where were you a kid?. And what was your childhood like and performing, growing up? Jessica: Oh yeah. I, um, I was surrounded. By performing my entire life. Um, growing up, my mom was a choir director and she ended up taking over the department there. So she was the head of the music department and the choir director. She also taught, um, sorry, that was at a, um, high school. And then she ended up being the department chair for basically the entire town. So all elementary, middle, junior, and high school. She also worked at a college. She also performed herself in musicals and she did the musical. She was also, um, creator of a show choir. If you've ever heard of show choir. And my father, he was also, um, growing up, he played the trumpet. He was a singer. They both sang at churches and my parents were divorced. And so it was kind of like, During the week I would live with my mom and on the weekends, I would go with my dad. And so on the week I would, you know, be totally at my mom's school. When I was growing up, I was sitting in those rehearsals and watching her do what she was doing and seeing the kids and growing up with the kids, doing it. And then on the weekends, I would go with my dad and we would go to church and I would be sitting in the, um, in the, uh, little pews there waiting for him and watching him, seeing. Two three masses sometimes. And he was always exposing me to music and all these other things. And so it was really from as early as I can remember. I think the passion developed. I remember when I was in middle school, I went to a summer arts program. It's called smarts. I actually think it still exists if anyone lives in Massachusetts. Um, And it's a wonderful program where for the summer, for a few months, you choose a major and a minor. And so I majored in dance because I grew up dancing probably was the first thing I did. I never really acted as a little kid and singing came later, but I chose a major, so that was dance. And then my minor was musical theater. And so I'll never forget, we did this little song thing from. Uh, little mermaid and I sang this little solo from Ariel and afterward. I don't know what it was, but my mom came up to me and, you know, granted she's my mom, but she was also a professional. Like she knew what she was doing. She came up to me and she was like, Jessica, that was fabulous. And she just started praising me for how wonderful it was and not just my singing, but my acting of it. And I I'll never forget that moment because that was always the moment that kind of really, I was like, really, I mean, I had a lot of fun, but if that's really as good as how it felt then. Cool. So I think that was really, I can say the initial spark of it all after that. Passionistas: Did you go on to study, uh, theater and perform? Jessica: Yeah. So that was kind of the initial bug. And then my mom put me in some of her, uh, two of her high school productions. So I was, I didn't go to her high school, but when I was in middle school, she's like, oh, let me just put you in the course. And so that was super fun. And then of course at that time, when I was in middle school, I was hanging out with the high school kids. So I just also thought that that was super cool. And then when I went to high school, I pretty much started doing. All the time I was in, you know, in the musicals and the drama club and everything. Um, and I would do summer shows. There was this wonderful summer program, um, in my town. And so I would do shows there and then it was really in high school. I was like this, I think this is, you know, I can't imagine doing anything else. And so I decided to go to school for it. So I went to school and got a BFA in musical theater. Um, went to school in Virginia. Um, and you know, it's funny, I'll another moment also kind of never forget is when we were looking for schools, we went to Ithaca and we came across the head of the music department, musical theater department. And she looked at me and she said, if you can picture yourself doing anything else, but theater don't do theater. And I was petrified at the time, but you know, rightfully so that was wonderful advice because you do need to have this level of. You know, blinders on and just be so focused because you get a lot of nos and you get a lot of rejection and you don't have control over a lot of things. And so it was great advice, but also terrible advice at the same time. Um, but it, it didn't scare me off. I said, well, no, I can't imagine myself truly doing anything else. And so I went to school for it and then graduated and moved to the city right away. And what was that experience like as a young actor? Getting to New York and starting your career. It was crazy. My mom always likes to tell the story. I don't know now being 35 and looking back, I don't know if I was an idiot or not, but she and my stepfather offered me as a graduation gift, a trip to Italy. She's like, we've been saving up some money and we'd love to take you to Italy. And I was like, Hmm. You know what? I think I just want to move to New York city. Stupid stupid, stupid. But, um, yeah, so I, uh, I ended up moving right away. I literally stayed at a family friend's place for two weeks. I had no job. I had no place to live. Really just figured I would I'd I'd fix, I'd figure it out. And if anyone is listening, who knows the musical 42nd Street, it was truly like Peggy Sawyer. My mom took me to the bus station. I had my one suitcase in my, you know, a couple bags and she just waved goodbye to me on the bus. And she left sobbing and I got off the bus at 42nd street and I made my way to grand central and I was staying right. Um, the family friend was like right over tutor city, like 41st in first. And I just, I walked into that apartment. I'll never forget that feeling. And I was like, wow. All right, I'm here. Let's do it. I don't know what to do next, but, and my dad ended up coming down a week later and walking me around the city to help me find a job. I found a job a week later and just, yeah, started hitting the ground running, but it was a truly, when I moved to the city, I really didn't know anybody. There were a couple people from college who had moved up, um, But I, I mean, it's not like a lot of kids graduate from musical theater and move up and have a big community, you know, and I really didn't have that. So it was, it was crazy. It was scary. It was exciting. It was overwhelming. And now I always think back in high school, we would take these weekend trips to, to New York. And I would, I remember standing in Times Square and always being like, I'm gonna live here at one day. And so I often have to remind myself of that because you know, the city can be. And it's, it's the love, hate relationship with it. Um, but it's where I've always wanted to be. And so that was a passion of mine tooth that I fulfilled, which is really cool. Passionistas: How do you get through the challenging times, especially with COVID and everything. How do you take that rejection and how do you deal with the challenges of being an actress? Jessica: You know, it's an interesting question. I think if you had asked me 10 years ago, um, I'd have a completely different answer, but. I think now, honestly, it's having another passion project and it's having something else that lights you up. I think it's necessary. And I think anybody who is looking into going into any career that has to especially has to do with performing, but as any aspect of artistry behind it, you have to have something else that lights you up. Something else that, um, You know, Phil's you something else that drives you and I, and I, at the time, when I say, you know, if you had asked me 10 years ago, I was so narrow focused and yes, that's what you need, but you also need to be a full person. And I think that took me a long time to really understand that. And, and that comes with many things. You know what I mean? Like, even if you're working a corporate job, you need to have something else that lights you up because. It bleeds into everything else that you do. And so I found, you know, when I started having these other passions and having these other hobbies, even before it was a passion, a. I think to talk about, you know, you walk into these audition rooms and people are like, you know, they might ask you questions or you might meet with an agent or a casting director, and they're asking you things. And when they say like, so tell me, tell us a little bit about yourself. They don't want to hear it. Well, I'm an actor. I love to dance. I love to sing. Like they know that. So they want to hear like, oh, I have a podcast and it's for moms. And it's really cool. And I did this the other day with that. And. Yeah, that's the stuff that makes you a person and that what makes you interesting to work with? So my advice to someone who's starting off in that career would definitely be to get yourself another hobby, whether it's fitness, whether it's crafting, whether it's podcast, whatever it is. Um, and that definitely helped helped me. Passionistas: So tell us a little bit about your own career. Like what have been some of your favorite parts that you've had? Jessica: My absolute favorite, favorite role was I got an opportunity twice actually to play Mary Poppins, um, and goodness gracious. That was like both times. It was just a dream. The very first time was just so magical because it was the first time doing it. Um, but there was something about that role. It, I love children, which is why I started a podcast about babies and children. Um, and so it fit for me. And I just, it, it felt like a glove, you know, there are certain things that you do in life that just like, yup. That's that's right. That works. That feels right. And, um, I had an unbelievable cast. I had an unbelievable Bert. He's just Kyles and he's just amazing. And he's working in Disney now. Um, But it was, it was like no other, I mean, there's truly no words to describe it from top to bottom, everything just fit. Um, I'll tell this one really quick story connected to that show. Um, I was in the audition room actually. I had sang a couple of times and was asked to do the dance audition was in a dance callback. So if you go to a professional audition, you're, you're in the room with a ton of girls and they usually call four or five. Whether it's girls and guys, or just girls up together. And they do the dance with everybody else in the room, kind of on the side. And they just cycle through and cycle through and cycle through. And we had done, it was a tap combination. And so this one group had gone up there and as they were about to go, this one girl started freaking out. She's like, oh my gosh. And her tap shoe broke. And she was like, oh my tap. Ran over to her. And I said, what size shoe are you? And she said eight and a half. And I said, me too. And so I just took my shoe off and gave it to her. And that little moment, literally. Was the biggest talk of the story from that director. And of course, like I did a good job in the role and I was talented, but honestly I think just that random act of kindness booked. Because not only did he comment on it three times that day, but he proceeded to talk about it when I came back in for callbacks. And then when I eventually got the job and we were at, um, so before we, when you worked with this one director, he's a fabulous mark Robin, before you work with him. Um, I mean, when you work with. The day before you go into your tech week. So when you start adding all of the lighting and the set design and all those implements you, he always has a talk and he it's like the tech talk. And it's basically to hype you up for what's to come because the tech week can be kind of challenging, but he delivers this unbelievable inspirational. Uh, motivational speech, but in the conversation, he decided to call out and retell the entire shoe tap shoe story. And basically it was wonderful what he said, because he was saying, you know, that we're being led by someone, myself who is inclusive and is this Mary Poppins type figure and is looking out for everybody and. I truly was just doing it because I wanted to, I mean, everyone should just have an equal chance and if she was my shoe size of why not, um, but it just blew his mind. And so that was a really cool experience to just, and also lesson. And, you know, we're technically not in competition with anybody. I mean, we are, but just having that open heart can really give you a lot of opportunities. So, I mean, bar none, I would say that Mary Poppins experience. The best. Um, and then secondly was just tour. I mean, being on tour with the national tour Beauty and the Beast was just like an experience I can never explain. You have to travel the country and Canada and get paid and perform and have kids waiting for you at the stage door. And I mean, it's just, it was amazing. Absolutely. Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And you're listening to the Passionistas Project podcast and our interview with Jessica Lorion to tune into the Mamas in Training podcast. Visit JessicaLorion.com. If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us to continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting ThePassionistasProject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $1 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions. Now here's more of our interview with Jessica. So let's talk about your podcast. So what inspired you to create Mamas in Training. Jessica: We've been talking a little bit about this acting career. It's like you have ebbs and flows as an actor. And I especially didn't really have anything else that I was doing besides my job. And I was kind of looking for something creative. I was looking for something that I could control, because also, as I mentioned, there's very little that you control as an actor, or at least it feels that way. And. I was also in this place that all of my friends were starting to have kids. And so I was in conversation about motherhood almost 90% of the time. And so I was also a little bit of a birth story junkie. I love hearing birth stories. I know it's weird, but I do. Uh, and so I was naturally really just asking my friends about these things and was curious about them and the. Spark happened when my, one of my best friends had just had her and I went to go visit her two weeks after the baby was born. And she was just talking to me about how, when she was pumping or she's breastfeeding feels kind of lonely and isolating because she said, you know, if I'm over my in-laws, I have to go to a second bedroom or I have to like sit in the car and do it before we can go into a store or whatever. And so I thought, well, that's kind of crappy. And two of my friends at work were working on a podcast as well. So the podcast word had kind of flitted around my mind and I was a fan of podcasts. And so that was the moment I said, wait a minute. What if I interview moms about their journey into motherhood and the initial idea of the podcast, which has now changed, but the initial idea was. I would interview moms about their journey. And so that moms who were currently pumping or breastfeeding could listen and know that they weren't alone. And I originally called it the Pumping Podcast, but then it was truly over COVID and everything that I was introducing myself as a Momma in Training. And so I kind of thought, where am I in this story and in this podcast. And that's when I kind of discovered. That there needed to be a shift and I needed to narrow it down and make it more something that I could do. And I was doing, which was learning. And so now more specifically, it's called Mamas in Training and I interview moms, who often happen to also be experts in whatever they are doing now as a result of whatever challenges they experienced. So, um, and I learned from them what they wished they had known before they were pregnant or when they were pregnant or when they were a new mom, so that I can learn selfishly. And then any of my audience who are listening can learn right alongside. Um, cause we kind of study everything else in life, but we rarely study motherhood. And I think it's a really nice opportunity if we have the luxury or even if we don't when we're pregnant or a new mom, but just hearing from other people how things are going. Passionistas: What are a couple of things that you've learned that really surprised you? Jessica: There are three main topics that I've learned. And then I'll give you like another example of a couple of practical things. So the three main things mostly have been advocacy. So the importance of advocating for yourself, whether it's. When you're trying to conceive when you're pregnant or then when you're actually giving birth or postpartum, even, I mean, it continues and we have so much more control than we think that we do. So advocacy is huge, huge. Um, the second thing is community, the importance of community and how you can set these things up for yourself before that moment comes. And it doesn't necessarily have to just be like a food drain. Um, it can be, you know, a doula, it can be a lactation consultant. If you have the finances to do that. Having the community that extends even beyond your initial family or whoever's going to be there hopefully to help support you. Um, that's really key because first of all, we need to do a better job at letting our moms heal and we need to do a better job at talking about the stigmas that we feel. We know that we're not alone and we have that support. So community is huge. And then sort of the practical things are like little things. I didn't know that you can even, you know, there's a certain way to push when you're giving birth that can actually damage or not totally damaged, but can cause damage to your pelvic floor, like something called purple pushing and that's holding your breath and puff your cheeks out. And you're pushing down really hard instead of taking a deep breath in and letting it out as you breathe up. And a lot of. Nurses who are there with you when you're giving birth, we'll often say, take a deep breath and bear down and push, like you're going to poop. And yeah, there's a level of that, but there are other ways that we can do it. And I think we often take for face value what the doctors and the nurses say, because they do this all the time, but you can also say like, thanks for that advice. But I've actually learned that there's a better way that's going to work for me and my body. And I would have never thought something like. I would have never even thought that you can put music on or that you can ask to not know what your measurement is. So they're going to measure your cervix as, as your. Labor, but you don't have to know what it is. And oftentimes women feel like that's a better thing, not knowing because then they don't get in their head. You know, if they don't think that they're progressing because they're only two centimeters, you know, then they don't have to think about the number. They can just think about what the experience is and what they're feeling. And oftentimes when women don't think about it, they progress even faster because it's kind of that mental block. So it's moments like that and things like that, or the last tip I'll give is like a formula. So a majority of women, not all women, but a majority of women plan and prepare and hope to breastfeed. But what they kind of do is like, okay, I know that formula is an option, but I want to breastfeed. Yep. I plan to breastfeed. I know it's going to be hard, but I'm going to breastfeed, but what happens if you're in. Moment in that baby comes out. And that first day, those first few hours, you're trying to get that baby to latch. You're trying to get your milk to come out. Like there's so many different things that can slow down that process. And it's going to come to a time that baby's gonna need food. And if you don't have colostrum that you've prepared or you don't have a formula picked out now postpartum just a few hours after giving birth filled with hormones, filled with this overwhelming, like feeling you have to now. Either, just be comfortable with whatever formula the doctor decides or the nurse decides to give your baby, or you have to just sort of pick one out of thin air, or you have to just go with whatever they have at the hospital. But instead I've learned from this formula experts that I interviewed pick out a formula, whether or not you think you're going to use. But a formula that worst case scenario, if you had to use it, you feel comfortable with it. You feel comfortable with the ingredients, you feel comfortable with the price. You feel comfortable with everything and physically buy it, put it in your birth bag, take it to the hospital, but in your hospital bag, take it to the hospital and have it ready. And if you don't use it. But at least that level of stress is there. So like it's kind of these little practical things that I'm learning that I'm like, Ooh, love that. Ooh, that too. Passionistas: So have you ever thought about taking this beyond the podcast, a book or something else like that? Jessica: We have in different ways yeah, we'll have to see kind of how it develops right now. The way that I've extended it is that I have a membership. And so women, if they want more community, like I mentioned, they can sign up and they can, well, I have a free community on Facebook that anyone can just join as long as you're a mom expecting or seasoned mom. But I also have. Uh, a more in-depth community where we meet monthly on zoom and I bring in experts. So usually past podcast, guests to talk about a specific topic. So like I had one expert come in and talk about your pelvic floor and. Women who are in the group can ask questions directly to that podcast guest. And it's kind of cool for them cause they just, you know, they listened to the episode and now here's that person. Um, so that's the biggest benefit of the group. And of course I hope that that just grows and grows and grows so that more women are in there. And then we can all continue to connect and support and you know, there'll be breakout rooms and like all these fun things. But I have dabbled with the thought of some sort of a future course or something like that. Maybe not a book because I interviewed Heidi Markoff at What to Expect, and she's already got that pretty covered. But, um, I think some, some sort of reasonably priced course would be a good idea maybe along with a support group, because oftentimes I find that expecting moms. When they just get pregnant or just find out, they're kind of like, okay, what now? And they're going from all these different places and trying to sort through information. And so I would like to put all of the information that I've learned in one place. So someone can just say like, this is how you walk through this process slowly but surely. So with. I think I have to go through birth on my own first, before I feel comfortable doing that. So it'll probably be a couple of years, but in the, in the, in the brainstorming mind. But if anyone's listening or has women in your life who are expecting or new moms or aspiring moms, you can join now the free Facebook group or join our premium membership as well. I can send you those links. Passionistas: So you have an auto immune issue that's impacted your journey to motherhood. What advice would you give to somebody who may be going through kind of a similar situation? Jessica: When I mentioned earlier, I was trying to figure out where I fit in. A lot of people would say, you know, why the heck do you have a podcast about motherhood when you're not a mom? And it really was because when I got, I got this diagnosis actually right before tour, and then it just progressed and it was so bad, it was awful. And, and so the reason why I can't have kids right now is because of the medication that I'm on for that auto immune disease. And the medication has to completely be out of my body for months before I'm able to even try to conceive. You know, I'm 35. I would love to have had kids a long time ago. I've been with my husband for 13 years. Like it would be nice, but I can't. And so I kind of thought that this would be a nice opportunity to turn something that's kind of feels a little crappy and do something a little bit more positive. And so honestly, I will say that many people deal with autoimmune diseases in many different ways. And you have to do whatever is right for you at whatever stage you're in. So the things that I'm doing right now, I would recommend to do for anybody to do, but I can understand because when I was in the heat of it and my disease was at its worst. I could not picture doing anything that I'm currently doing. Um, so like my first recommendation is to completely shift your diet. And I know nobody likes to hear that, but there is a reason I, I won't try to stay on this soapbox for too long, but there's a reason why our world is so infused with. Fast food with terrible food, with all these fake things, going into our food and that correlates so directly with the reason why so many more people at such a young age are developing all these auto-immune diseases. Why do you think we have all these commercials for all these steroidal, you know, injections like Humira and that's what I was on. And in my opinion, I think that caused my arthritis. That's my personal opinion, but why do you think that's so directly related? You know, it's just this cycle and people get paid when we take these medications. So I would say if you have an ear to hear this, I would highly recommend checking out your. I went on Dr. Amy Myers autoimmune solution diet. It was basically an elimination diet. And then you add back in things over time. And by doing that, by controlling my stress, by finding something that gave me a passion like this podcast and keeping myself busy and occupied in a positive way, um, I really think completely has changed my disease. And I can proudly say that as of now, I'm on the lowest possible dosage of my both medic of both of my medications. And I'm hoping that as of next week I can drop down one of them completely. And then within the next month, the other one completely, and I was on a full dosage of these medications and I was my, my. Situation was severe, like hard, really severe. I had to buy a cane very severe. And so the fact that I'm managing. With food and with no other medication. I mean, it kind of sounds like a no brainer to me, but it's, it's hard. It's hard to hear that when, when you're struggling so much, so it would be to really take a look at your diet and it would be to get yourself something that just lights you up and makes you feel good because we need to lower the stress in our bodies for autoimmune diseases. Passionistas: What's your secret to a rewarding life? Jessica: I think it has a lot to do with. Being present and something that's kind of come over me in the past few years is sort of this definition of success. And so to circle back to my acting career, you know, because you have to have such a narrow focus. When you start out in the acting world theater world, you paint this picture of what success is going to look like. And so for so many years Broadway was it. And then I kind of started to get older and I kind of started to have freak outs with my husband and I was like, Broadway hasn't come yet. I also want to be a mom and how do I get on Broadway and be a mom? And I mean, people do it, but you go through all these things. And I remember specifically, he sat me down and he was like, well, what is success to you? And I was like, well, it's being on Broadway and that's what it was. And this could be anything for you. Like this could, if, if you're in a corporate job, this could be like getting that position or whatever. But then he said, which kind of shook my world a little bit. He was like, so just checking the national tour that you did, that wasn't success that wasn't successful? The Mary Poppins that you did, that wasn't successful? The commercial that you shot, that wasn't successful? The relationships that you've built and you've created that wasn't? Our marriage that's not successful? When you have a baby, is that successful? Is that success? And I was like, my mind kind of exploded for a second. I was like, wow, you're right. Like, there are so many other things. That success can mean. And so I think the way that I've kind of readjusted my thinking over the past five years or so, because it is hard to think, like, of course I wanted, I had that goal of Broadway, but just because I haven't gotten there yet, still have time still could doesn't mean that anything else that I do in my life isn't successful. And so I think the way that I sort of celebrate that and stay present in what I have done is by being aware and hairiest about everything. And so actually for 2021, I like to choose words at the new year. I don't necessarily like, um, resolutions. So my word for 2021 was awareness after I had read the, the greatest secret. It's really been unbelievable because every now and then I just remind myself about awareness and whether it's that I'm trying to be aware of the message that my husband is telling me, which is like, come sit on the couch with me for a second stop doing work. Or whether that's awareness of like this one thing has quote, unquote crossed my desk three times like maybe I should look into that. Or whether it's your body is feeling a little tired, a little push to the edge. Maybe you need to chill out a little bit. Like whatever awareness it is has really allowed me to stay more present and acknowledge that what I have and what I've done is really actually extraordinary. And there's more to come, but I can't discount what I've already done. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Jessica Lorion. To tune into the Mamas in Training podcast visit JessicaLorion.com. Please visit ThePassionistasProject.Com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Get $45 of free goodies with a one-year subscription using the code WINTERGOODIES. And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

In this week's show, Phil talks to Jessica Chan, a self-taught web developer who provides practical tips and tutorials for beginners in web development which she shares through blog posts and her YouTube channel, ‘Coder Coder'. Jessica talks about why communication skills are so important in an IT career. She also discusses the importance of patience when it comes to setting life goals.   KEY TAKEAWAYS: TOP CAREER TIP Communication skills are equally as important as the technical skills we need, in order to have a successful IT career.   WORST CAREER MOMENT While working on a website redesign, Jessica mistakenly deleted a huge amount of work and was unable to retrieve it. While it was touch and go for a while, Jessica learned to keep backups!   CAREER HIGHLIGHT Being able to quit her full time job as a developer and focus on content creation, teaching others how to engage with coding and fulfilling her ambitions to become more independent.   THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T The growth of developer advocate roles, in which developers are asked to create content, is fascinating and is pushing the industry forward.   THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – Jessica taught herself coding and programming and developed a love for computers from an early age. What's the best career advice you received? – Always keep your audience in mind. What's the worst career advice you received? – To become a teacher, which was not a fit for Jessica's personality or skill-set. What would you do if you started your career now? – Jessica wishes she had seen the potential in an actual career in IT a lot sooner. What are your current career objectives? – To make Coder-Coder financially sustainable. What's your number one non-technical skill? – Anticipating the needs of others. How do you keep your own career energized? – Jessica tries not to let things stagnate too much She is always learning and trying new things. What do you do away from technology? – Camping and spending time in nature.   FINAL CAREER TIP Life goals are a marathon and not a sprint. Don't get too discouraged if you don't get instant results.   BEST MOMENTS (4:40) – Jessica - “Communication will make you someone that people want to work with, as opposed to someone that people try to avoid working with” (7:30) – Jessica - “It's okay to make mistakes. It's not okay to sit on that mistake” (9:15) – Jessica – “Being able to be a part of someone's story is so transformative” (21:55) – Jessica – “Life goals are a marathon, not a sprint”   ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organizations to design, develop, and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey.   CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/_PhilBurgess LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Instagram: https://instagram.com/_philburgess Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast's website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – JESSICA CHAN Jessica Chan is a self-taught web developer who provides practical tips and tutorials for beginners in web development which she shares through blog posts and her YouTube channel, ‘Coder Coder'.   CONTACT THE GUEST – JESSICA CHAN Jessica Chan can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecodercoder/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecodercoder/ Website: https://coder-coder.com/ YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/CoderCoder

Jessica DeFino is a freelance beauty journalist living in Los Angeles, California. For the past seven years Jessica has been writing, researching, editing, and publishing about the beauty and wellness industry. Her work has appeared in Vogue, The Cut, Fashionista.com, Cosmopolitan, Marie Claire, Business Insider, SELF, HelloGiggles, Harper's Bazaar, and more.Before starting her career as a freelance journalist, Jessica worked as a beauty writer for The Zoe Report. She was Director of Communications at Fame and Partners, and worked as a ghostwriter for Khloé Kardashian and Kendall Jenner.Jessica earned her bachelor's degree in Music/Business Songwriting from the Berklee College of Music. Jessica's music degree brings a unique perspective to her writing. It infuses each piece with lyrical qualities of storytelling, flow, and connection to her audience.Jessica also publishes a bi-monthly beauty newsletter called The Unpublishable, where she shares “What the beauty industry won't tell you — from a reporter on a mission to reform it.”In this episode, you'll learn about: Making lasting connections with your audience Why understanding music and rhythm makes your writing better Capturing and keeping your readers' attention right from the outset The dangers of cross-posting your content across social media Links & Resources Vogue Magazine Allure Harper's Bazaar Ursula K. Le Guin RhymeZone Ali Abdaal Jessica DeFino's Links Follow Jessica on Twitter The Unpublishable Jessica's Instagram Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Jessica:I started writing as a songwriter. The musicality of something is very important to me. So I'll read my own stuff out loud sometimes. I feel when people can read something and there's a clear flow and rhythm to it, and the words melt into each other sound nice next to each other, it locks them into the content early on. You want to keep reading because if you stop reading it's like you're breaking this rhythm that you've started.[00:00:34] Nathan:In this episode I talk to Jessica DeFino. She's a journalist covering the beauty industry, but she tends to take an approach that's not as popular with sponsors and publishers, because she's anti a lot of their products and a lot of the nonsense that is put into the products and the marketing behind it.She's taking a critical angle and she's well loved by her readers because of it, but maybe not so loved by the big brands. We talk about how that came about. We talk about her writing style, her approach of using her background in song writing and going to school for songwriting to have a better, more interesting writing style.She gives some tips along that angle, talking about how she launched a newsletter last year and growing that to 9,000 subscribers. How that is a backbone for the rest of her work she does in journalism.It's a great conversation. So, let's dive in.Jessica, welcome to the show.[00:01:28] Jessica:Thank you so much for having me.[00:01:29] Nathan:We'll jump around a whole bunch, but I want to start on the launching of your newsletter. What was the moment when you started to think, okay, I want to actually run a newsletter and start to control my own audience?[00:01:44] Jessica:I had been toying with the idea for a while, and then I think it was, April, 2020, right after the pandemic, where I had gotten into a situation where—I'm a freelance reporter—I had four freelance stories out when March happened, and Coronavirus lockdowns happened and everything was up in the air.The company severed ties with all of their freelancers and basically gave these four unpublished stories back to me, and gave me a kill fee. So it was like I had reported out these whole stories. I had spent months on them, and now I had nowhere to put them, and I gave it about a month of pitching it out to other alums.There weren't any takers because media was in such a precarious position at the time. Finally I was like, maybe this is the opportunity I've been waiting for to launch a newsletter. and I decided to call it The Unpublishable because I couldn't get anyone to publish this. And yeah, it's been going, almost like every other week.[00:02:50] Nathan:Nice. Yeah. It's interesting how these unfortunate moments result in something that's like, okay, this is actually either a good thing now, or hopefully going to be a good thing soon, but it starts with difficult times.[00:03:05] Jessica:Yeah, exactly. I wanted these pieces to be big. They were stories that I thought were important to tell, and I really wanted them to be in a major outlet. Sometimes with media, you can't sit on things for very long. It was like, I maybe have two more weeks before they stopped becoming relevant.[00:03:23] Nathan:Yeah. So for context, for anyone listening, what were some of those stories as an example?[00:03:27] Jessica:The first story I published with a piece called “Where are All the Brown Hands?” It was a look into the overwhelming whiteness of the top nailcare companies in beauty. If you would look at their Instagrams or if you would look at their websites, everything was modeled on white hands.As a beauty reporter, when I have to source images for the stories, I don't want to just be showing white hands. If I'm writing about nail trends or whatever, and it would take me hours every week to comb through places and try to find the trend I was speaking to on a person of color. At one point, I was like, why is this happening and how come it's so hard?This should not be hard. So, I wanted to do an investigation into it, and just like that the whole process had already taken six months. I was like, you don't know what's going to happen in this story. It might be scooped. It might be written by somebody else. It might be irrelevant in another month or so.So, I really wanted to get that out there, and that started it.[00:04:31] Nathan:When you publish a story like that, and you're used to publishing for a major beauty publication, but you're publishing it for yourself. What did that look like? What was the process of saying, I have this story that I've worked on for a long time, and I have a brand new newsletter and all at once.How did you bring that to life and pull the audience together?[00:04:52] Jessica:Well, luckily at that point I had a mask, a little bit of a social media following just from my work on work, like major publications. Like I had been writing for Vogue and allure. Harper's bizarre. And I had been pretty diligent about building up a social media audience. So I had a pretty sizable, amount of readers just from Instagram.And a couple of years prior, I had like tried starting my own beauty content platform, but I never really had the time to dedicate to it. But I had a small email list from that, from when I was still doing it. So I kind of like funneled all of that together under this new umbrella of this is going to be like my personal reporting newsletter and I kind of got the word out on Instagram.So it ended up reaching like a surprisingly large audience for something that was like a first-time newsletter.[00:05:44] Nathan:Yeah. So if you don't mind sharing how many subscribers were like to that first article?[00:05:49] Jessica:I think that first article probably went out to like 1500 subscribers[00:05:53] Nathan:Okay. Yeah, but that's you're right. That, that is a surprisingly of like, here's the first thing that we're doing.And I guess it goes to show from right. Spending a whole career being known and, and building it in this space. And then, you know, you're not starting from scratch when you funnel entity.[00:06:10] Jessica:Yeah, it, it had always been important to me to, not as important, but it was something I thought about to collect email addresses and to get social media followers, because my goal had always been to write a book. And I know that when publishers are looking at whether to buy a book from you, it matters what kind of audience you have and how many people you have on an email list.So even though I wasn't sending things out prior to finally launching the newsletter, Collecting emails here and there. Just, just to have for the, for the book pitch one day.[00:06:42] Nathan:Yes. That's something that I've always heard is, you know, from agents and friends who are authors and all of that, as they talked about the, the email as being the thing that the publisher is looking for, they're like, Yeah, that sounds good. First question.[00:06:57] Jessica:Yeah.[00:06:57] Nathan:I mean, they use it as a proxy for how many copies can you sell?[00:07:01] Jessica:Exactly. Yeah. When I was pitching out my book, it was all about, Instagram. I, this was probably like two years ago now. and I couldn't get an agent to talk to me until I had 10,000 Instagram followers. So that's like, all I cared about for maybe a year, I was like, I don't care. I'm not going to put effort into anything else.I just need these Instagram followers.[00:07:23] Nathan:Yeah. So you have 35,000 followers on Instagram now. what were the things that worked for you as far as growing that, that audience on it?[00:07:32] Jessica:Honestly, in the beginning, when I was like, I need to get to 10,000 followers, I was a little scammy about it. I did a lot of the like follow unfollow. So I followed a ton of people who were following accounts that were similar to mine.And kind of, and what you do with that is like, they see that you followed them, they check out your page.Hopefully they follow you back. If they don't follow you back, you can like unfollow that person to keep your ratio looking good.[00:08:00] Nathan:So is that like going through and following like 50 people a day kind of thing or hundreds[00:08:05] Jessica:Yeah. I mean probably 50 to 200 people. Like I would spend probably an hour or two hours a day just doing. Stupid stuff like that, but I didn't really care about, but I was like, I'll do anything to get a book deal. If it's following 200 people a day, that doesn't bother me. And if at the end of the day, they're looking at my profile and saying, Hey, this is somebody whose content I care about.I'm going to follow them. It doesn't feel like bad or wrong to me. So I just did a lot of that[00:08:34] Nathan:Yeah, it's a very small way, like small and non-intrusive way to be like, Hey. Do you want to pay? Like, you're just sort of raising your hand and people either go like no, or they go, oh yeah, I'll look at that for a second.What's interesting is I think that a lot of creators started in that way, but probably now when they tell their story, they're like, yeah. You know, I just, I just put out good content and then the content itself. And before you know it, I was, you know, internet famous, you know,[00:09:01] Jessica:I think that worked, it worked like 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago, but right now there's just so much content out there on every platform. And I don't think it's fair to say that if you have great content, you will be successful on that alone. Like, I think you need more than that today.[00:09:18] Nathan:Yeah. So, so the following, people in the space, which we'd recommend, you know, regardless, what are some of the other things, on that quest to 10, that will.[00:09:27] Jessica:Yeah, I was falling up a storm.I was liking a ton of stuff cause that's kind of the same strategy. Like sometimes Instagram too will phrase your account. If you like too many things or you. follow too many people. So I was getting into that. I did a ton of hashtagging at the time. luckily the, the area that I write to to beauty has like a very big and dedicated community on Instagram.So there are a ton of like beauty community hashtags out there that I was following and getting involved in and commenting and just really making my presence known in this community while at the same time posting my own content. That I thought had a very different point of view that would be intriguing to people.So once they saw that I was engaged, they were like, who is this person? And there was, you know, a lot of content there for them to, to delve into.[00:10:18] Nathan:Yeah, that's good. In the last, episode of this show, I had a YouTuber on his name's Ali doll and he's got, you know, he's built up to 2 million subscribers on YouTube, but he talked about that like back catalog that you have of when someone comes across your work for the first time, like seeing the back catalog and seeing it have a unique point of view.And I feel like. That would be the experience, you know, when you pop up in some little way. Okay. Another, you know, beauty, Instagram account, and then you come in like, oh, this is actually different. Has a unique point of view. So, I'd love for you to share. I don't know what the, the short version of like the different perspective that you're bringing to the beauty industry and what someone would notice when they come to your Instagram or your, newsletter.And they're like, this is different. This is a, you know,[00:11:08] Jessica:Yeah.[00:11:09] Nathan:Challenging.[00:11:10] Jessica:I think the easiest way to put it that most beauty content out there is very fluffy. and very positive and very product heavy. and my stance is very beauty industry critical. and I, I say that I'm pro skin anti product. So I'm much more interested in how beauty applies to like your actual skin and your actual body and like the human itself, rather than this external product, you can apply some very focused on the science of how human beings work rather than the science of like a skincare and.[00:11:44] Nathan:Right. Okay. Is there an example that comes to mind of something where you're like, do this? Not that.[00:11:50] Jessica:Yeah. I mean, probably the biggest example is just, I mostly tell people to stop using skincare, you know, period. End of story. Just, you don't have to, our skin does all of that for us. You know, humans have survived millennia without pre bottled products, and there's no reason why. In the past 30 years, our skin has suddenly evolved to need a 10 step routine.It doesn't so, yeah, I just tell people, stop using it. And they're shocked at the results all the time.[00:12:20] Nathan:I like that. I could see a conflict in. Message and business model in the industry. and your interaction in this. there's a lot of money in the industry of obviously selling, I mean, any product, but especially a product that you need to buy every month or every three months or something like that.Like that's a very good business. So have you had any, any conflict of publications not wanting to pick up your stories or any of those things as the publication is. You tell your people to not buy our sponsor's products, you know, or something like that.[00:12:55] Jessica:Oh yeah. I mean, there's been a ton of pushback and depending on what platform I'm writing for, I. See my work being edited in a certain way or softened in a certain way or a brand name being taken out. I've had articles be published and then the platform takes them down almost immediately because an advertiser has complained.I've had legal action threatened against me while I'm reporting for a story just for asking questions. yeah. Yeah. It's that kind of stuff happens all the time because in beauty journalism, there is a huge. Conflict between what you're supposed to be writing about and who's footing the bill for that content, which is products and advertisers.And I think in the beauty industry in particular, there's this extreme lack of objectivity where, you know, editors and journalists and influencers are all gifted product or taken on press trips. And. And given money to review products in a way that in any other industry, you wouldn't be able to call that journalism.You know, there's always gotta be some sort of separation there. Like a typical journalist is not allowed to accept gifts in the beauty industry. It's the complete opposite. It's like, well, how can you write about our product if we don't gift it to you? So it's, it's a very weird space that is very reliant on gifts and money and advertising.[00:14:18] Nathan:So how has that changed as well as you've launched your own newsletter? I imagine you're still doing plenty of freelance writing. Is that.[00:14:27] Jessica:Yeah. Yeah. I'm still, my, my thing is, is I try if I have a story I want to tell, I obviously want to tell it to the biggest platform possible. And then if I can't get the story placed somewhere else, I will, I will tackle it for the news.[00:14:43] Nathan:Okay. So yeah. How has like, has the news that are helped? Like, for example, you're trying to get us started placed and they're like, sure, we'll place it. But could we do this version of it instead? And, and you know, maybe you're saying that like, no that's okay. Whereas before the paycheck might've mattered more or how's That. relationship?[00:15:01] Jessica:Yeah, that's pretty much spot on. I, I didn't really push back too much before, but now that I have. platform that like actually brings in, okay. Money for me. It's not like if I say no, I don't want that story published this way. It's really not like I'm losing out on a paycheck anymore because I will make that up from my own subscribers.So, I think since I've launched the newsletter, there have been two instances of that where I've written a story for a platform have been uncomfortable with the edits and actually. And was like, no, I don't, I don't want to publish it this way. And that feels really good to have a little bit more control over, over what I want to say and the information I want to put out there.[00:15:45] Nathan:Yeah. I mean, you have even more, I mean, you, you always had agency, right. But now it's like, you have an alternative instead of like, I'll keep pitching it to someone else who might have the same objections or, or that kind of thing. On the business side what's well, actually, maybe if we dive into the newsletter today, right?So that we talked about where I was at a year ago when we launched to, I just said, we, when you launched, I had nothing to do with my launch. There's no Royal we in that are taking credit later. when you launched, you know, a year and a half ago, there was at 1500 subscribers. where's it at today,[00:16:24] Jessica:I'm at 9,000 subscribers now.[00:16:26] Nathan:Right?[00:16:28] Jessica:But, I mean, I have a model where some of it is free and some of it is paid, so there are like different cohorts within the subscriber-based too. But like, I'm, I'm pretty happy with how it's grown on the free side so far.[00:16:41] Nathan:Yeah. And so on the paid side, you're charging $7 a month, or 77 a year. What was the thinking on the pricing there? Was that something that you like agonized over a lot or was that a, like, we'll just go with something and see how it works.[00:16:54] Jessica:Yeah, I didn't agonize over it too much. I started out at $5 a month and, after I got maybe my first hundred or 200 paid subscribers and I felt really good about like, wow, that feels like a lot. That's like a good chunk of change I didn't have before. And then when I was looking into the fees that were taken from like Stripe processing, from sub staff, I was taking home like closer to $3 per subscriber.And I was like for the time and attention that I want to give this project, I'm just not going to be making it. At $5 a month until I hit a certain number of paid subscribers. so I decided to bump it up to seven, just to sort of motivate myself to put the time and attention into it that I wanted to give it because if I wasn't going to be bringing in like, actually $5 to me, it didn't feel worth it.So by pricing it at seven, I get more like $5, which felt like a, okay, I'm happy with that number. now that I do have more paid subscribers, I am toying with the idea of, of lowering it because I feel like I feel like from, at least from my perspective, when I am subscribing to a newsletter,I subscribe to a ton of them.I'm much more interested to click. I'm much more likely to click pay and subscribe if it's $5.And if it's like six or seven or eight,[00:18:21] Nathan:You think about[00:18:22] Jessica:Eh, that's kind of a lot. Do I care enough about this content to pay that much? But personally for me, $5 is like a whatever I'll I'll subscribe kind of thing. So I, I think I'm getting closer to the point where I feel like I have enough of a base that I can do that and hopefully reach more people.[00:18:42] Nathan:Right. Okay. I have so many questions here, but diving into the psychology side of when you're deciding to subscribe to something, right? Cause everyone listening is Ryan newsletter and asking these same questions. Like, should it be $5? Should it be $20? Should it be free? Shouldn't be $2. You know, like any of these things.And then they're analyzing their own buying habits. And they're like, but what if it's a business versus a fitness versus, you know, any of these, like what category I'm in and what are those other things that you notice beyond price? When you as a newsletter consumer, I go to like instant subscribe versus like, well, think about this.How many articles have I enjoyed from the recent layer? Like that, tips it over to the other side.[00:19:25] Jessica:Right. Oh, I don't know that there are that, like my personal revelations will be. relevant to people. I personally, just because I run a newsletter, I love to support. So if it's anything that I'm like vaguely interested in and it's like $5 a month or less, I don't know why $5 is my cutoff, but also subscribe.And I'll just see what it's like for a couple of months. And if I don't like it, Whatever I can always unsubscribe, but I just really love the idea of putting that abundance out there into the universe and just being like, I'm a little bit interested in this and I want to support this creator because I know what a, like a hustle it is.I'm sure the average, like newsletter consumer doesn't really doesn't really think that way. but for me, I don't know. I love a good headline if it's like a good quippy, funny headline, like I want to be reading. fun, critical content. There's a lot of like heavy, critical content out there. and I love something that's like fun and critical, so that'll get my[00:20:27] Nathan:Yeah. There are things wrong with the world and we could get depressed about them, but that doesn't[00:20:32] Jessica:Yeah,[00:20:34] Nathan:About fixing the things that are wrong with the world,[00:20:36] Jessica:yeah, exactly. Like turn it into a little bit of a, like the state of the world I feel is so bizarre.[00:20:43] Nathan:Right.[00:20:44] Jessica:Just so wild that we have set up the world the way we've set it up. Like everything that, that exists is just something that like some guy made up one day and we were like, okay, we're going to go along with it.And I feel like there is a lot of humor in that. so yeah, I, I love looking at the depressing state of the world for like a bit of a jokey lens. So if I find anything like that, I'm like immediate.[00:21:09] Nathan:Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that's where for anyone writing their content, like having that voice really matters. So it's not just, you know, this is what you're teaching or this is, the educational side. Or present the entertaining side. It's like, okay. But how can you, how are you gonna make me feel as I read and consume this.[00:21:29] Jessica:That's a great way to think about it. I think the difference, when I'm consuming like a newsletter versus the news is I don't really know. I don't concern myself with like tone or voice when I'm reading an article from like the New York times or the Washington post. but a newsletter is so much more personal.It's like you're getting into people's personal inbox, it's more of a one-on-one relationship. and I think it's a great opportunity to play with your voice in a way that you really sometimes can not when you're writing for a media plan.[00:22:04] Nathan:Yeah. So what are the things that you've done to practice that obviously you've had a whole career as a writer. And so, you know, as you've found your voice and the things that you play with, are there yeah. Little exercises or things that you play with or try on, or anything like that? Any, any tips for someone who's also looking to like craft their own way?[00:22:26] Jessica:It's as much of a tip, but I started writing as a songwriter. I went to school for songwriting. So I feel like a lot of my writing takes that into account. Like that's the musicality of something is very important to me. So I'll like read my own stuff out loud. Sometimes like flow of a sentence is very important to me, the rhythm of a sentence, the like intonation, the, Continence and assonance and all of that alliteration, I, I feel like when people can read something and there's a clear flow and rhythm to it, and the words like melt into each other sound nice next to each other.I personally feel like it locks them into the content early on. Like you want to keep reading because if you stop reading, it's like you're breaking this rhythm that you've started. So, yeah, I would say rhythm is very important to me and reading things out loud helps me make sure that what I've written is what I'd like envisioned and felt[00:23:35] Nathan:Yeah.[00:23:36] Jessica:Mind and my heart when I was conceptualizing the thing.[00:23:39] Nathan:Yeah, reading out loud is a really good tip because there's so many things where I'll find myself starting to read what I wrote and then like finishing it in a much more like in my head in a much more conversational way, and then realizing the sentences or the following sentences that I had. We're not conversational.They were like stilted. The version that I wanted to auto finish in my head is like, oh, that's better. Let's let's say that instead.[00:24:05] Jessica:I love that. And I think, I think newsletter subscribers are like ready for more. Conversational writing. Like I don't, I think you can be like professional and say something that has weight and has merit and has value and still be kind of, you know, casual about it.[00:24:23] Nathan:Yeah.[00:24:23] Jessica:As a strategy to connect with people.[00:24:26] Nathan:Is there a poster or a piece that you've written that you felt like. Maybe you struggled to find that balance of like, it was a, maybe a weighty piece or something like that. And you're like, oh, maybe this one I shouldn't be playful with or, you know, finding[00:24:41] Jessica:Yeah, there are definitely times when I take a break from the jokey conversationality I think the last big piece that I wrote, was about, anti-Asian racism when like all the news came out that like anti-Asian hate crimes were at an all time high. there's a lot of the beauty industry tends to take a lot of its concepts from Eastern culture, from Asian cultures.So, there was a lot to say there about racism within the beauty industry that, you know, happens in ways that you may not even realize. So for a piece like that, I think there were some moments of, of humor within it, like a dark humor within it, but for the most part, for, for things like that, I take that very seriously.I think my readers take that very seriously and I. It's less conversational then, because it's like, no, I have something that's like very important and clear that I want to get through to you. And I don't want it to be muddled with any sort of, uh jokingness.[00:25:46] Nathan:Yeah, that makes sense. So let's say you were a writing coach, coaching someone,Ryan newsletter, that sort of thing. You don't have to become a writing coach after this. Just.[00:25:59] Jessica:Thank God.[00:26:00] Nathan:But like, you know, you have a friend, maybe they're writing the newsletter, they've got a couple of thousand subscribers they're getting going in.And they're saying like, you know, they, they hear what you're talking about of the, the musicality and the, the flow of, of writing. And they're like, okay. Short of going to songwriting school, like, what's the, what, you know, is there, a book or another thing that you would recommend of where to start to, to sort of dive into the flow of what you write?[00:26:29] Jessica:There is a great essay, by Ursula K Le, is that how you say her last name?[00:26:37] Nathan:I'm not sure.[00:26:37] Jessica:Read it and I've never said it out loud before.[00:26:41] Nathan:Yep. I have so many things like that in my life where I'm like, I don't know how to pronounce this word.[00:26:46] Jessica:It's so embarrassing writing about skincare, because there are these huge, like long skincare ingredients that I write all the time. I can spell them for you off the top of my head, but then I tried to like say them out loud on a podcast, for example. And I'm like, I don't know how to say this at all. I'm looking for this, this essay it's from her book.No, no time to spare[00:27:10] Nathan:Okay.[00:27:10] Jessica:And there's this. And she writes a lot about right. but she has this beautiful essay about rhythm, and how it's different in poetry and how it's different in pros and how to kind of like sort out the rhythm of your piece. and I would say that was hugely helpful to me when I, when I first read it.So I would recommend doing that and. Yeah, I don't know. I use things like, I mean, I, I use it the sores all the time, but I use rhyme zone a lot for like fun phrasing and plays on words. It's just rhyme zone.com and you type in the word that you're you're playing with. And it'll kind of like, you know,[00:27:50] Nathan:Oh, interesting. Yeah.That's exactly the kind of, kind of that's good. Yeah. A lot of people, you know, they come to newsletters from kind of two different sides, either from the journalist, professional writer side or the, you know, hobbyist, maybe even, I never thought I'd be a writer, but I have this skill or something to teach or behind the scenes in this industry.And like writing maybe as a slog or a chore. And so it was always interesting when these two worlds meet and either, you know, one group might be really good at marketing because they knew they came from that world and another group.[00:28:27] Jessica:Yeah.[00:28:27] Nathan:Really good at writing and they each hate the other's job, but[00:28:31] Jessica:Yeah,[00:28:31] Nathan:Like they pick the job.That's the intersection of both of those worlds.[00:28:35] Jessica:Yeah, no, you're so right. I think there is this like sort of misconception in the journalism and reporting space that any reporter who is on sub stack has decided to go in all in on the newsletter. Because there have been some very high profile journalists who are no longer writing for like the times or the posts and they're just doing their newsletter.But I think for the large majority of, of reporters and journalists who have, who have started newsletters as well, it's like a both and kind of thing.[00:29:06] Nathan:Yeah.[00:29:06] Jessica:Sill freelancing and we have this, this sort of personal platform.[00:29:11] Nathan:Yeah. So how do you think about your career developing over the next couple of years? Is it, is there a specific milestone in mind, where you're trying to grow the newsletter to, to do that full-time or is it always trying to place a piece to the biggest possible audience?What's that like?[00:29:29] Jessica:Yeah, I would say my goal, like I very much, this is kind of earnest and nerdy, but like, I very much want to change the beauty industry. I see so much that is wrong with it and I see how it like emotionally impacts people. in terms of anxiety, depression, mental disorders, eating disorders, like there's a lot of heavy stuff that comes out of the beauty industry.And I like, I'm very passionate about actually measurably changing it. So for me, the number one thing is always, I want to reach the largest audience possible with an unadulterated message. So if I can do that in a place like the New York times, of course, I'd rather place it there than my own news. if I can do that through a book, of course, I'd rather write it in a book then in my own newsletter.So the newsletter has been sort of like a nice foundation for me to have and a nice fallback for me to have. And I, I truly love fostering it as its own little separate entity, but I would, I would say I almost try harder to place things elsewhere because I wantAs many people as possible to be able to, to read the things that I'm writing. the newsletter I'm I am writing my first book right now, and it's definitely been hard to juggle book writing with like reporting for other platforms and deadlines. So I will say like juggling a book and my own personal newsletter has been much easier than trying to juggle a book and reporting. So I think, I think there will be times in my writing career while I'll lean a little bit more heavily on the newsletter.And times where I'll lighten up on the newsletter. I'm always seeing it as sort of like a supplemental tool to my like greater mission.[00:31:13] Nathan:I think, I don't know what publication they were writing for. but someone was telling me about, was that in each of these publications, they're watching the view counts, you know, for every story. And they had gotten the newsletter. I think they were maybe at 20, 25,000 subscribers. And they would, when they placed a piece with a fairly major publication, they would email it out.And they, it was enough direct traffic to that individual piece that they could get it to move on. Some of these internally watched leaderboards and stuff like that. And so editors were paying attention to that of like, they didn't necessarily know like making things up that, you know, Jessica was the one who drove a bunch of traffic to this, but they're just like, wow, Jessica's stories are consistently resonating.And so they were wanting to pick up more pieces in that. and so I was always wondering about that, of how you can, it's not gaming an algorithm or anything like that.[00:32:08] Jessica:Hmm.[00:32:08] Nathan:Just saying like, look, here's my story. And I bring an audiences.[00:32:12] Jessica:Oh, I love that. I might try to do that. I always do. Like I do these little roundups every other week for my paid subscribers.And if I have something that comes out, I'll always put, drop the link in there, but I've never done like a strategized push like[00:32:28] Nathan:Right.[00:32:29] Jessica:Be interesting to experiment for sure.[00:32:31] Nathan:Well, cause it's like, if someone is following you that they're following you for. Your content and your ideas and your perspective. And they probably don't really care if it's, you know, in your sub stack, you know, on your Instagram or, you know,[00:32:48] Jessica:Right.[00:32:48] Nathan:Major publication, there's like, look, I want to read your, your content.And you're like, oh, today's article is[00:32:54] Jessica:Yeah.[00:32:55] Nathan:Here on Vogue. Or, you know,[00:32:57] Jessica:Kind of nice to hear, because I think that's something that I do worry about pretty often with my newsletter is I feel like a ton of my newsletter readership has come from social media. And so I'm like very conscious of cross posting. Like I don't, I don't want someone to get my newsletter and say, I already saw this on your Instagram, so I don't need to subscribe.I don't need another email in my inbox because I'm seeing it on Insta, you know? And I don't know if that's like a legitimate concern or how much people see when they subscribe to you on different platforms. but that has been. You know, something that I'm very mindful of, where if it's like a meme that I'm posting on social media, or just like a one-off Instagram post, I'm probably not going to repeat that content, even if I think it's good or important on the newsletter. Just because I don't know, I'm aware of like how precious it is to allow someone into your email inbox, because at least for me, like email is very annoying. The worst part of my day is trying to like go through my inbox and file it away into folders. And I never want my newsletter to be like, oh, I've seen this already. I've seen something very similar from her already.[00:34:09] Nathan:Right. Yeah. I don't know that I have a perspective on that. I'm just thinking about it. I don't have the same concern. but I don't know that. You know whether I should or not. I think probably my approach would be that if you've already seen something, let's say there's five or six things in the newsletter and I've already seen one of them on Instagram, but I just skipped past that one.[00:34:30] Jessica:Yeah.[00:34:31] Nathan:And so my focus would be on making sure that everything is high quality, more than making sure that everything is, completely a unique[00:34:40] Jessica:Yeah. That's I mean, that's encouraging to hear, and I think that that might, change how I approach my like every other week[00:34:49] Nathan:Yeah,[00:34:49] Jessica:Maybe I'll experiment and I'll see, I'll see if people are like, Hey,I saw that.[00:34:54] Nathan:The other thing that I would do is I would ask, one of my favorite things to do is to ask for replies to my newsletter, which has a downside of that you get a whole bunch of emails, but they can often be really fun cause they're, No, the people who are reading every day and like they're following your stuff.And, and so they're usually not pitching you things. They're just saying, like, here's the thing that I, and so in that case, just say, Hey, you know, if I share something on Instagram, would you also like it here? Or do you feel like, keep those worlds more separate? Like don't I want everything to be unique.And then I would just like, say hit reply and let me know.[00:35:34] Jessica:Yeah.[00:35:34] Nathan:And it's. Yeah, but you know, out of 9,000 subscribers, I'd bet you'd get at least, I dunno, 20, 30, 40 replies or something.[00:35:42] Jessica:Yeah, that's a good point. Okay. Oh, you're inspiring me. I have so many ideas now.[00:35:48] Nathan:Perfect. I love it. okay. One thing that I want to know more about is growing that. That newsletter from the pieces that you're, I assume subscribers are coming from Instagram. And then also from the pieces that you're publishing,[00:36:04] Jessica:Yeah.[00:36:04] Nathan:Seen like spikes? when it came from an Instagram post that did really well or some other promotion to drive subscribers,[00:36:13] Jessica:I mean, I definitely get new subscribers every time I post about it on Instagram or Instagram stories. So I would say that's been like a main driver for me, but my two biggest, like surges of subscribers came from, All of the newsletter press that's been happening lately. Cause you know, like the newsletter revolution is here.So, I got a little write up in New York magazine and then one in the UK Sunday style magazine and both of those were amazing and totally unexpected. I had no idea they were coming. so now I'm like, damn, how do I, how do I facilitate some more press for myself? Because this is where that.[00:36:55] Nathan:Like what would a spike like that look like? Cause that a couple of hundred subscribers, 500 a thousand from one of those[00:37:01] Jessica:I would say from New York magazine, it was probably close to a thousand. And then from the UK, Sunday times was probably between like 500, 600.[00:37:11] Nathan:Yeah. That that's substantial.[00:37:14] Jessica:Yeah. It was, it was really exciting. and it definitely goes to show like the power that these publications have. It's interesting to see that power as applied to like inherently, anti large publication platform, like a personal newsletter, you know?[00:37:35] Nathan:Yeah. So how do you, how do you think about it when it's like. More press would be nice. You're like, Hey, this, this is a big boost, you know? I'd 10% lift in total subscribers or something from a single thing. And then knowing what you know about journalism and being in the space, like, is that something that you craft a strategy around and say, okay, I'm going to intentionally pursue, placements in these publication.[00:38:02] Jessica:No, in terms of just the newsletter, I, I don't think I'll ever like strategize and try to do that. I think, I mean, the, the reason that I got those two placements is just because I. In the beauty space, my newsletter does offer something that's really different that you're not getting anywhere else. and so it becomes inherently interesting to write about or call out because this is the only place you can get that kind of thing if that's what you're looking for.So I think it's just more of like striving to figure out, like, how can I create more, very original content that actually. Gives value to the reader in a way that's going to create that kind of buzz. I don't want to like manufacture the buzz so much as I want. Like my condoms would be good enough for people to actually talk about it.But that being said, when my book comes out eventually like, hell yes, I plan to like strategize and try to get the shit written about me everywhere, which will hopefully we get to the newsletter as well. But yeah, I feel like I'm going to save all of that, like smarmy, you know, networking for book launch.[00:39:14] Nathan:Yeah, that makes sense to me. I want to push back on it a little bit, because so much of the success of the book is going to be dependent on a lot on a lot of things, but a big factor is going to be the size of your platform. When that book comes out.[00:39:29] Jessica:Yeah.[00:39:29] Nathan:And so if you wait to be self promotional until the book comes out, then like, that'll get this far, but let's say you were self promotional in a tasteful way.We're going to be tasteful about all of this. you know, but along the way, and that 9,000 subscribers turned into 25,000.Right. And it's that much bigger of a platform to launch from. So I'll say that with the caveat that I think the same thing.[00:39:51] Jessica:Yeah.[00:39:52] Nathan:We have, I've lots of friends who have big platforms and I'm like, oh, I could guest post on them.You know, with them, or like ask, Hey, can I come on your podcast or something like that? And I'm like 90% sure that they would say yes, but then I think, oh, I should save that for when my book comes out. Right.Cause you know, you have that, maybe that, just that one ask.So I think it's something that a lot of creators struggle with of like when to promote.And so intellectually I'm like promote early enough.[00:40:21] Jessica:Yeah.[00:40:22] Nathan:And then emotionally, what I'm actually doing is I think exactly what you're doing, but I'll save that for when I really need it.[00:40:28] Jessica:Yeah, I think for me, there's also this, this sort of inherent struggle with what I write about and getting press, because I am pretty critical of beauty media coverage. and I'm aware that I have made some enemies in the beauty media space. Like I'm not the most well-liked person, in some of these circles.So I do feel like I only have like a certain amount of rope that I can, use up like a certain amount of leeway in these spaces. and then also I, yeah, I don't know. I think it's something I have not sat down to really work out my feelings about. But there is some sort of ethical dilemma there where if I'm critiquing the way a certain platform has covered this beauty trend or whatever it is, I'm critiquing.And then I'm sort of like asking for press at the same time, like ethically, what does that say about me and my participation in these systems?You[00:41:30] Nathan:Right.[00:41:31] Jessica:Which is a big question and not one that I'm going to be able to answer here.[00:41:36] Nathan:Yeah. Are there publications outside of the beauty space that would have less of the, maybe sponsored ties or other, you know, issues[00:41:47] Jessica:Yeah,[00:41:48] Nathan:The main publications might have, but that would find your story.[00:41:52] Jessica:I think so. I think the path that I am trying to follow in beauty coverage right now. the path of sustainable fashion coverage, like I feel like fashion and beauty have been so intertwined in their coverage and they're, they're both sort of seen as these like less serious pursuits. They're both seen as like inherently female interests.And they've struggled to be taken seriously, I think. but with like the push towards sustainability content and, you know, the inevitability of climate change, I think. Sustainability and fashion is getting a ton of like serious quality coverage all over the place, even from platforms that wouldn't normally touch fashion.And I see beauty as being very behind that. Like there are still these huge global issues in the beauty industry and beauty production and just the way that we consume and beauty, that hasn't been touched. But I see it starting to be touched by these larger, serious. News organizations. And I feel like there's such an opportunity there.And that those are topics that I'm super passionate about and super interested in. So I'm, I'm trying to carve out a space for myself there to say, look, we're taking fashion seriously for the impact that it has culturally societaly environmentally. Like we have to start taking beauty justice seriously because it's just as big of a person.[00:43:17] Nathan:I like, I like that angle on that. That makes a lot of sense. And just seeing trends in a neighboring industry. I think you're right. I hope that I hope that you're right in, that plays out in there.[00:43:28] Jessica:Me too.[00:43:29] Nathan:One of the things that I'm curious about is kind of the rise of newsletters in the journalism space.I don't come from that world. I very much come from the newsletter world. And so seeing, you know, so many people either make the switch full-time, or get to the point where they're like, Hey, I've been writing these pieces everywhere. And like, my byline has just directed people back to Twitter or Instagram or.And now it's directing people back to my own audience. What are you seeing in like in your friends and colleagues and all of that is, are a lot of people starting newsletters or is there this overwhelming trend of some are starting it, and maybe it's getting hyped more than is actually happening.[00:44:12] Jessica:Yeah, I think that's what I've noticed. I don't think as many people within my like, sort of direct. Community of journalists and reporters are starting newsletters. And I think it's gotten so hyped. Like we're in such a moment of coverage right now that it almost like, seems like a little lame to start a newsletter now.Cause like everyone's doing.But the reality of the situation is that everyone is not doing it. And I think there's still a lot of opportunity and a lot of room to grow and to move into and to create your own kind of thing. like I mentioned, I think there is a big misconception that if you're starting your newsletter, that means you're done with journalism and you're just doing this now.It's like, no, you can very much do both. And you can do your newsletter once a month. You can do it, you know, once a week you can do it. However, often you have time for it. Like you said you could use it as a tool just to send out your journalism, pursuits to a wider audience. but yeah, I think sort of the hype around newsletters has sort of, created this little, Ooh, I don't know if I want to do a newsletter too.Cause I might get to see them. Like, I'm just doing what everybody else is doing.[00:45:23] Nathan:Right. Yeah. The, the newsletter hipster trend is sort of passed and it's gone mainstream. I can't do it[00:45:31] Jessica:Exactly. I mean, for the record, I don't believe that that's true, I think that's how people are perceiving.[00:45:38] Nathan:Well, it's so funny to me because, I've been doing E you know, email and email newsletters and that kind of thing since I guess, 2013. and you know, very excited. They got into all of that. And I was telling people like, email is amazing and friends that have me, who've been doing it since like 2001 were like, yeah, like good job, discovering it.Do you want to go and start? Like what a pat on the back, what are you hoping for here? And watching is, you know, these trends as they come, if you had a friend who, you know, is in the space who comes to you and says like, oh, I'm going to start a new. You know, what are the things, I don't know, the three or four things that you would tell them right away of here's what they should watch out for is strategies that they should employ any of those things.[00:46:25] Jessica:I mean, my number one piece of advice that seems really obvious. Isn't always is just to find your niche. Like I would say hone in on something as specific as you possibly can, within your space so that people have a reason to subscribe. I would say to have, like, especially if you're doing sub stack or a place where you can view past newsletters, like have a healthy backlog before you actually start soliciting people to sign up so that they can see what your content is like.And then this is a big thing that I think is missing from a lot of the journalism to newsletter side, because like he said, there are people who are coming from marketing and people who have never done marketing in their life. something that I do is that when I'm sending something out to my paid subscribers, I send a shorter version out of it to my free subscribers.Click to continue. And then it brings them to the paid subscriber thing. And I convert between 30 and 50 people every time.And when I sign up for free newsletters, which I sign up for a ton of them, I have never once got in that. I've never once gotten an email. That's like the intro of the article. And then it, you know, sort of leads me into that paid funnel.And I used to work in marketing. I used to work in fashion marketing. That was just like a no, duh of course I would do that sort of thing. but I've never seen any other like journalists to newsletter convert, use that very easy tool. so I would say, take advantage of that for sure.[00:48:07] Nathan:Yeah, that's interesting of the things that in one industry, like you're right in the marketing industry, everyone's like, obviously, you know, of course you would do that. And then you get into another space and it is this exciting, new thing. I started in, in design and, like user experience and interface design.And so I brought a lot of design ideas to marketing and then a lot of like direct response marketing ideas into the design world. And it needs to circle. Everyone was like, whoa, this is amazing and new.[00:48:35] Jessica:Yeah,[00:48:36] Nathan:You did it in the original circle, people are just like, obviously there's nothing novel about it.[00:48:41] Jessica:Exactly. I think people really, underestimate. The skills they learn on the way to get to where they've, they've gotten to. Like, I never would have thought the job that I hated in fashion marketing would have served me in, in, any way. Cause I sort of wanted to get away from all of that. Like marketing bullshit, lack of a better word, because at least at the company that I was at, it mostly felt like lying and just like squeezing money out of people.I think you can use those tools for good as well, which is what I'm trying to do.[00:49:15] Nathan:Yeah. So a lot of creators struggle with that transition where they feel like either from a past experience or something that they've seen where they're like, oh, I can never ask for money for this or charge for it or, that kind of thing. Or they're very, very hesitant to sell in any, anything. what would you say to them?Or what's your journey been like in saying like, no, this is what it costs. This is why you should subscribe.[00:49:40] Jessica:Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to have, to have a reason, you know, make it very clear that it's reader funded or user funded. for me, all of my content is very clear that I blame the media advertisement model for so much of the misinformation and bullshit that's out there in beauty. So me saying that my newsletter and this content is completely user funded, so that I'm loyal to you.The reader rather than an advertiser, is very like, you know, quote unquote on brand for me. And I think people who are interested in my content are more than happy to pay for it. It's solving a problem that I am pointing out in my reporting, you know? and then I would just say also like allow yourself to be surprised at how much people want to support you.I have been so pleasantly surprised by people who are just, they just liked my content and they're happy to pay for it. And I think one of the, the biggest, the biggest ways that I've seen that happen is that, on substance. They let you do like the page, so you can do monthly or a yearly rate, or you can do something called a founding member, which is just somebody who pays a little bit more to support and they don't really get any extra benefits at all.And I am shocked at the amount of people who give me 50 more dollars than they need to, just to support, And that's like, every time I get that email, that's like someone signed up for the founding member level. It's heartwarming because it's like, there are a lot of people out there who want to support great creator, led content.[00:51:23] Nathan:Do you have a percentage or numbers on that? Like I'm curious, every time I see that I'm like how many people select that[00:51:29] Jessica:Yeah.[00:51:29] Nathan:Know from doing multiple prices or packages, that it's one of the best ways to increase revenue is to just have a higher price option available.[00:51:38] Jessica:Yeah.[00:51:38] Nathan:confirming that, but I want to know any[00:51:40] Jessica:Yeah. I have not like crunched the numbers on anything, but just from, so I sent out a paid newsletter, on Thursday. So between Thursday and today from like my conversions of free[00:51:55] Nathan:Yep.[00:51:56] Jessica:Sign up, I've gotten, I think 56, new signups. I would say maybe 10 of them were the yearly membership and maybe five of them were the founding member.[00:52:08] Nathan:Okay. Wow. So half of the year, the ones being the like yeah. I'll pay you $50 more just to support your work. Even[00:52:17] Jessica:Yeah,[00:52:18] Nathan:Because the yearly membership is supporting your work, but even just[00:52:21] Jessica:Yeah,[00:52:21] Nathan:Above and beyond.[00:52:23] Jessica:Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's just what, roughly, from what I remember from the email. I'm not like super concerned with, with stats and strategizing right now. I'm just like ecstatic. Every time I get the ding on my phone that says somebody new signed up.[00:52:39] Nathan:Yeah. That's super fun. So, what are the things that you're thinking about next for the newsletter? Is it slow, steady, growth, and maintaining that while working on the book? Is there a big milestone that you're working towards any of those things?[00:52:52] Jessica:There is not a huge milestone, but I think when I first started it, and this is, I think maybe just a personal hangup, but I was very conscious of not bothering people too much, like not being in their inbox constantly. So, it was like one big story a month, and then every other week for paid. Now I'm toying with the idea of doing more, short form content and where weekly content.I'm going to be launching a new feature for paid subscribers that's gonna be, like an advice column, but more like, how do I navigate the industry? How do I divest from these marketing tactics? How do I like stay smart and know what's alive and what's not?So, I'm going to be launching that within the next month.Then, for everybody, I'm going to be launching weekly or even twice a week, just like little, like a little tip newsletter. Because what I do in my newsletter a lot is critique the beauty, and point out what's wrong with it.People are always like, okay, sure, but how do I apply that to my own life? Like how do I get over the fact that I know it's marketing, that I don't need to have big lips to be beautiful, but how do I stop feeling that way?So, it's going to be more practical tips for, I guess, sort of healing from all of the beauty industry shit that they put us through, but it's going to be very short, quick hits, like, you know, five sentences, a paragraph tops. So, I'm going to experiment with a couple of different, forms of writing and a couple of different frequencies and see, see what people.[00:54:38] Nathan:Yeah, that sounds good. Well, if anyone wants to go subscribe to that and follow you on Instagram and other things around the web, where should they go?[00:54:46] Jessica:My sub stack is JessicaDefino.substack.com, and you can sign up for The Unpublishable there. And then on Instagram, I'm @JessicaDeFino_.[00:54:56] Nathan:Sounds good. Well, thanks so much for coming on. This has been fun to[00:54:59] Jessica:Yeah.[00:54:59] Nathan:learn about a whole side of the newsletter industry that I'm less familiar with, and just hear your story, and your writing tips, and everything else.[00:55:08] Jessica:Yeah, thank you so much. I feel inspired. I'm going to go send more newsletters.[00:55:13] Nathan:Sounds good.

01:20 - The Superpower of Sociotechnical System (STS) Design: Considering the Social AND the Technical. The social side matters. * Critical Systems Thinking and the Management of Complexity by Michael C. Jackson (https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Systems-Thinking-Management-Complexity/dp/1119118379) * Open Systems * Mechanical * Animate * Social * Ecological * On Purposeful Systems: An Interdisciplinary Analysis of Individual and Social Behavior as a System of Purposeful Events (https://www.amazon.com/Purposeful-Systems-Interdisciplinary-Analysis-Individual/dp/0202307980/ref=sr_1_3?crid=IJR9EM3K73NE&dchild=1&keywords=on+purposeful+systems&qid=1625847353&sprefix=on+purposeful+systems%2Cstripbooks%2C157&sr=8-3) 09:14 - The Origins of Sociotechnical Systems * Taylorism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management) * Trond Hjorteland: Sociotechnical Systems Design for the “Digital Coal Mines”* (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/sociotechnical-systems-design-digital-coal-mines-trond-hjorteland/) * Norwegian Industrial Democracy Program (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-232X.1970.tb00505.x) 18:42 - Design From Above vs Self-Organization * Participative Design * Idealized Design * Solving Problems is not Systems Thinking 29:39 - Systemic Change and Open Systems * Organizationally Closed but Structurally Open * Getting Out of the Machine Age and Into Systems Thinking (The Information Age) * The Basis for the Viable System Model / Stafford Beer // Javier Livas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLHocBdG3A) * What is Cybernetics? Conference by Stafford Beer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6orMfmorg) * Jean Yang: Developer Experience: Stuck Between Abstraction and a Hard Place? (https://www.akitasoftware.com/blog-posts/developer-experience-stuck-between-abstraction-and-a-hard-place) * The Embodiment and Hermeneutic Relations 37:47 - The Fourth Industrial Revolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Industrial_Revolution) * 4 Historical Stages in the Development of Work * Mechanization * Automation * Centralization * Computerization * Ironies of Automation by Lisanne Bainbridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironies_of_Automation) * Ten challenges for making automation a "team player" in joint human-agent activity (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1363742) * Jessica Kerr - Principles of Collaborative Automation (https://vimeo.com/369277964) Reflections: Jessica: “You are capable of taking in stuff that you didn't know you see.” – Trond Trond: In physics we do our best to remove the people and close it as much as possible. In IT it's opposite; We work in a completely open system where the human part is essential. Rein: What we call human error is actually a human's inability to cope with complexity. We need to get better at managing complexity; not controlling it. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: REIN: Welcome to Episode 242 of Greater Than Code. I'm here with my friend, Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Rein and I'm excited because today we are here with Trond Hjorteland. Trond is an IT architect aspiring sociotechnical systems designer from the consulting firm Scienta.no—that's no as in the country code for Norway, not no as in no science. Trond has many years of experience with large, complex, business critical systems as a developer and an architect on middleware and backend applications so he's super interested in service orientation, domain driven design—went like that one—event driven architectures and of course, sociotechnical systems, which is our topic today! These happen in industries across the world like telecom, media, TV, government. Trond's mantra is, “Great products emerge from collaborative sensemaking and design.” I concur. Trond, welcome to Greater Than Code! TROND: Thank you for having me. It's fun being here. JESSICA: Trond, as a Northern European, I know our usual question about superpowers makes you nervous. So let me change it up a little bit: what is your superpower of sociotechnical system design? TROND: Oh, that's a good one. I'm glad you turned it over because we are from the land of the Jante, as you may have heard of, where people are not supposed to be anything better than anybody else. So being a superhero, that's not something that we are accustomed to now, so to speak. So the topic there, sociotechnical system, what makes you a superhero by having that perspective? I think it's in the name, really. Do you actually join the social and the technical aspects of things, whatever you do? But my focus is mainly in organizations and in relation to a person, or a team cooperating, designing IT solutions, and stuff like that, that you have to consider both the social and the technical and I find that we have too much – I have definitely done that. Focused too much on the technical aspects and not ignoring the social aspects, but at least when we are designing stuff we frequently get too attached to the technical aspects. So I think we need that balance. JESSICA: Yeah. TROND: So I guess, that is my superpower I get from that. JESSICA: When we do software design, we think we're designing software, which we think is made of technical code and infrastructure, and that software is made by people and for people and imagine that. Social side matters. TROND: Yeah, and I must say that since Agile in the early 2000s, the focus on the user has been increasing. I think that's better covered than it used to be, but I still think we miss out on we part that we create software and that is that humans actually create software. We often talk about the customer, for example. I guess, many of your listeners are creating such a system that actually the customers are using, like there's an end user somewhere. But frequently, there's also internal users of that system that you create like backend users, or there's a wide range of others stakeholders as well and – [overtalk] JESSICA: Internal users of customer facing systems? TROND: For example, yes. Like back office, for example. I'm working for our fairly large telecom operation and of course, their main goal is getting and keeping the end users, paying customers, but it's also a lot of stuff going on in the backend, in the back office like supporting customer service support, there is delivery of equipment to the users, there's shipment, there is maintenance, all that stuff, there's assurance of it. So there's a lot of stuff going on in that domain that we rarely think of when we create their IT systems, I find at least. JESSICA: But when we're making our software systems, we're building the company, we're building the next version of this company, and that includes how well can people in the back office do their jobs. TROND: Exactly. JESSICA: And us, like we're also creating the next version of software that we need to change and maintain and keep running and respond to problems in. I like to think about the developer interface. TROND: Exactly, and that is actually, there's an area where the wider sociotechnical term has popped up probably more frequently than before. It's actually that, because we think of the inter policies we need and organize the teams around for example, services are sometimes necessary and stuff like that. JESSICA: Inter policies, you said. TROND: Yeah, the inter policies offices go into this stuff. So we are looking into that stuff. We are getting knowledge on how to do that, but I find we still are not seeing the whole picture, though. Yes, that is important to get the teams right because you want them to not interact too much but enough so we want – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh yeah, I love it that the book says, “Collaboration is not the goal! Collaboration is expensive and it's a negative to need to do it, but sometimes you need to.” TROND: Yeah, exactly. So that'd be a backstory there. So the main system, I think and the idea is that you have a system consisting of parts and what sociotechnical systems focus a lot about is the social system. There is a social system and that social system, those parts are us as developers and those parts are stakeholders of course, our users and then you get into this idea of an open system. I think it was Bertanlanffy who coined that, or looked into that. JESSICA: Bertanlanffy open systems. TROND: Open system, yeah. JESSICA: Fair warning to readers, all of us have been reading this book, Critical Systems Thinking and the Management of Complexity by Michael C. Jackson and we may name drop a few systems thinking historical figures. TROND: Yes, and Bertanlanffy is one of those early ones. I think he actually developed some of the idea before the war, but I think he wrote the book after—I'm not sure, 1950s, or something—on general system thinking. It's General Systems Theory and he was also looking into this open system thing and I think this is also something that for example, Russell Ackoff took to heart. So he had to find four type of systems. He said there was a mechanical system, like people would think of when they hear system, like it's a technical thing. Like a machine, for example, your car is a system. But then they also added, there was something more that's another type of system, which is animal system, which is basically us. We consist of parts, but we have a purpose that is different from us than a car that makes us different. And then you take a lot of those parts and combine them, then you've got a social system. The interesting thing with the social system is that that system in of its own have a purpose, but also, the parts have a purpose. That's the thing which is different from the other thing. For an animal system, your parts don't have a purpose. Your heart doesn't really have a purpose; it's not giving a purpose. It doesn't have an end goal, so to speak that. There's nothing in – [overtalk] JESSICA: No, it has a purpose within the larger system. TROND: Yeah. JESSICA: But it doesn't have self-actualization. TROND: It's not purposeful. That's probably the word that I – [overtalk] JESSICA: Your heart isn't sitting there thinking, going beat, beat, beat. It does that, but it's not thinking it. TROND: No, exactly. [laughter] TROND: So I think actually Ackoff and I think there was a book called On Purposeful Systems, which I recommend. It's really a dense book. The Jackson book, it's long, but it's quite verbose so it's readable. Like the On Purposeful Systems is designed to be short and concise so it's basically just a list of bullet points almost. It's just a really hard read. But they get into the difference between a purposeful system and a goal-seeking system. Your heart will be goal-seeking. It has something to achieve, but it doesn't have a purpose in a sense. So that's the thing, which is then you as a person and you as a part of a social system and that's where I think the interesting thing comes in and that's where we're sociotechnical system really takes this on board is that in a social system, you have a set of individuals and you also have technical aspects of those system as well so that's the sociotechnical thing. JESSICA: Now you mentioned Ackoff said four kinds of systems. TROND: Yeah. H: Mechanical, animal, social? TROND: And then there's ecological. JESSICA: And then ecological, thanks. TROND: Yeah. So the ecological one is that where every parts have a purpose like us, but the whole doesn't have a purpose on its own. Like the human kind is not purposeful and we should be probably. [laughs] For example, with climate change and all that, but we are not. Not necessarily. REIN: This actually relates a little bit to the origins of sociotechnical systems because it came about as a way to improve workplace democracy and if you look at the history of management theory, if you look at Taylorism, which was the dominant theory at the time, the whole point of Taylorism is to take purposefulness away from the workers. So the manager decides on the tasks, the manager decides how the tasks are done—there's one right way to do the tasks—and the worker just does those actions. Basically turning the worker into a machine. So Taylorism was effectively a way to take a social system, affirm a company, and try to turn it into an animate system where the managers had purpose and the workers just fulfilled a purpose. TROND: Exactly. REIN: And sociotechnical system said, “What if we give the power of purposefulness back to the workers?” Let them choose the task, let them choose the way they do their tasks. TROND: Exactly, and this is an interesting theme because at the same time, as Taylor was developing his ideas, there were other people having similar ideas, like sociotechnical, but we never heard of them a late like Mary Parker Follett, for example. She was living at the same time, writing stuff at the same time, but the industry wasn't interested in listening to her because it didn't fit their machine model. She was a contrary to that and this was the same thing that sociotechnical system designers, or researchers, to put it more correctly, also experienced, for example, in a post-war England, in the coal mines. JESSICA: Oh yeah, tell us about the coal mines. TROND: Yeah, because that's where the whole sociotechnical system theory was defined, or was first coined what was there. There was a set of researchers from the Tavistock Institute for Human Relations, which actually came about like an offshoot of the Tavistock Clinic, which was working actually with people struggling from the war after the Second World War. JESSICA: Was that in Norway? TROND: No, that was exactly in England, that was in London. Tavistock is in London. JESSICA: Oh! TROND: Yeah. So it was an offshoot of that because there were researchers there that had the knowledge that there was something specific about the groups. There was somebody called Bion and there was a Kurt Lewin, which I think Jessica, you probably have heard of. JESSICA: Is that Kurt Lewin? TROND: Yes, that's the one. Absolutely. JESSICA: Yeah. He was a psychologist. TROND: Yeah. So he was for example, our main character of the sociotechnical movement in England in the post-war was Eric Trist and he was working closely with Lewin, or Lewin as you Americans call him. They were inspired by the human relations movement, if you like so they saw they had to look into how the people interact. So they observed the miners in England. There was a couple of mines where they had introduced some new technology called the longwall where they actually tried to industrialize the mining. They have gone from autonomous groups into more industrialized, like – [overtalk] JESSICA: Taylorism? TROND: Yes, they had gone all Taylorism, correct. JESSICA: “Your purpose is to be a pair of hands that does this.” TROND: Exactly, and then they had shifts. So one shift was doing one thing, then other shift was doing the second thing and that's how they were doing the other thing. So they were separating people. They had to have been working in groups before, then they were separated to industrialize like efficiently out of each part. JESSICA: Or to grouplike tasks with each other so that you only have one set of people to do a single thing. TROND: Yeah. So one group was preparing and blowing and breaking out the coal, somebody was pushing it out to the conveyors, and somebody else was moving into the instrument, or the machinery to the next place. This is what's the three partnership shifts were like. What they noticed then is that they didn't get the efficiency that they expected from this and also, people were leaving. People really didn't like this way of working; there was a lot of absenteeism and there were a lot of crows and uproar and it didn't go well, this new technology which they had too high hopes for. So then Trist and a couple of others like Bamford observed something that happened in one of the mines that people actually, some of them self-organized and went back to the previous way of working in autonomous teams plus using this new technology. They self-organized in order to actually to be able to work in this alignment, but this was the first time that I saw this type of action that they actually created their own semi-autonomous teams as they called them. JESSICA: So there was some technology that was introduced and when they tried to make it about the technology and get people to use it the way they thought it would be most efficient, it was not effective. TROND: Not effective? JESSICA: But yet the people working in teams were able to use the technology. TROND: Yeah. Actually, so this is the interesting part is when you have complex systems then you can have self-organization happening there and these workers, they were so frustrated. They're like, “Okay. Let's take matters in our own hands, let's create groups where we can actually work together.” So they created these autonomous groups and this was something that Eric Trist and Ken Bamford observed. So they saw that when they did that, the absenteeism and the quality of work-life increased a lot and also, productivity increased a lot. There were a few mines observed that did this and they compared to other mines that didn't and the numbers were quite convincing. So you should think “Oh, this would use them,” everybody would start using this approach. No, they didn't. Of course, management, the leadership didn't want this. They were afraid of losing the power so they worked against it. So just after a few research attempts, there wasn't any leverage there and actually, they increased the industrialization with a next level of invention was created that made it even worse so it grinded to a halt. Sociotechnical was a definer, but it didn't have the good fertile ground to grow. So that's when they came to my native land, to Norway. JESSICA: Ah. TROND: Yeah. So Fred Emery was one of those who worked with Trist and Bramforth a lot back then and also traced himself, actually came to Norway as almost like a governmental project. There was a Norwegian Industrial Democracy Program, I think it was called, it was actually established by – [overtalk] JESSICA: There was a Norwegian Industrial Democracy Program. That is so not American. TROND: [laughs] Exactly. So that probably only happen in Norway, I suppose and there were a lot of reasons for that. One of them is, especially as that we struggled with the industry after the war, because we were just invaded by Germany and was under rule so we had nothing to build. So they got support from America, for example, to rebuild after the war, but also, Norwegians are the specific type of persons, if you like. They don't like to be ruled over. So the high industrial stuff didn't go down well with the workers even worse than in England, but not in mines because we don't have any mines so just like creating nails, or like paper mills. Also, the same thing happened as I said, in England, that people were not happy with the way these things were going. But the problem is in Norway that this was covering all the mines, not just a few mines here and there. This was going all the way up to the – the workers unions were collaborating with the employers unions. So they were actually coming together. This project was established by these two in collaboration and actually, the government was also coming and so, there were three parts to this initiative. And then the Tavistock was called in to help them with this project, or the program to call it. So then it started off your experiments in Norway and then I went more – in England, they observed mostly, like the Tavistock, and in Norway, they actually started designing these type of systems, political systems, they're autonomous work groups and all that. They did live experiments and the like so there was action research as a way of – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh, action research. TROND: Yeah, where you actually do research on the ground. This was also from Kurt Lewin, I believe. So I know they did a lot of research there and got similar results as in England. But also, this went a bit further than Norway. This actually went into the law, how to do this. So like work participation, for example and there was also this work design thing that came out of it. It's like workers have some demands that goes above just a livable wage. They want the type of job that meant something, where they were supposed to grow, they were supposed to learn on the job, they were supposed to – there were a lot of stuff that they wanted and that was added to actually the law. So this is part of Norwegian law today, what came out of that research. JESSICA: You mentioned that in Norway, they started doing design and yet there's the implication that it's design of self-organizing teams. Is that conflict? Like, design from above versus self-organization. TROND: Yes, it did and that is also something that I discovered in Norway so well-observed, Jessica. This is actually what happened in Norway. So the researchers saw that they were struggling to getting this accepted properly by the workers, then I saw okay, they have to get the workers involved. Then they started with this, what they call participative design. The workers were pulled in to design the work they worked on, or to do together with the researchers, but the researchers were still regarded as experts still. So there was a divide between the researches and the workers, but the workers weren't given a lot of freewill to design how they wanted this to work themselves. One of the latest experiments, I think the workers weren't getting the full freedom to design and I think it was the aluminum industry. I think they were creating a new factory and the workers weren't part of designing how they should work in that factory, this new factory. They saw that they couldn't just come in and “This is how it works in the mines in England, this is how we're going to do it.” That didn't work in Norway. REIN: And one of the things that they've found was that these systems were more adaptable than Taylorism. So there was one of these programs in textile mills in India that had been organized according to scientific management AKA Taylorism. And what they found, one of the problems was that if any perturbation happened, any unexpected event, they stopped working. They couldn't adapt and when they switched to these self-organizing teams, they became better at adaptation, but they also just got more production and higher quality. So it was just a win all around. You're not trading off here, it turns out. JESSICA: You can say we need resilience because of incidents. But in fact, that resilience also gives you a lot of flexibility that you didn't know you needed. TROND: Exactly. You are capable of taking in stuff that you couldn't foresee like anything that happens because the people on the ground who know this best and actually have all the information they need are actually able to adapt. Lots better then to have a structure like a wild process, I think. REIN: One of the principles of resilience engineering is that accidents are normal work. Accidents happen as a result of normal work, which means that normal work has all of the same characteristics. Normal work requires adaptation. Normal work requires balancing trade-offs competing goals. That's all normal work. It just, we see it in incidents because incidents shine a light on what happened. TROND: I think there was an American called Pasmore who coined this really well. He said, “STS design was intended tended to produce a win-win-win-win. Human beings were more committed, technology operated closer to the potential and the organization performed better overall while adapting more readily to changes in its environment.” This has pretty much coining what STS is all about. REIN: Yeah. I'm always on the lookout because they're rare for these solutions that are just strictly better in a particular space. Where you're not making trade-offs, where you get to have it all, that's almost unheard of. JESSICA: It's almost unheard of and yet I feel like we could do a lot of more of it. Who was it who talks about dissolving the problem? REIN: Ackoff. TROND: That's Ackoff, yeah. JESSICA: Yeah, that's Ackoff in Idealized Design. TROND: Where he said – [overtalk] REIN: He said, “The best way to solve a problem is to redesign the system that contains it so that the problem no longer exists.” TROND: Yeah, exactly. JESSICA: And in software, what are some examples of that that we have a lot? Like, the examples where we dissolve coordination problems by saying the same team is responsible for deployment? REIN: I've seen problem architectures be dissolved by a change in the product. It turns out that a better way to do it for users also makes possible a better architecture and so you can stop solving that hard problem that was really expensive. JESSICA: Oh, right. So the example of item potency of complete order buttons: if you move the idea generation to the client, that problem just goes away. TROND: Yeah, and I have to say another example is if you have two teams that work well together. [chuckles] You have to communicate more. Okay, but that doesn't help because that's not where our problem is. If you redesign the teams, for example, then if they – instead of having fun on the backend teams, if you redesign, you have no verticals, then you haven't solved the problem. You have resolved it. It is gone because they are together now in one thing. So I think there is a lot of examples of this, but it is a mindset because people tend to say, if there is something problem, they want to analyze it as it is and then figure out how to fix the parts and then – [overtalk] JESSICA: Yeah, this is our obsession with solving problems! TROND: Yes. JESSICA: Solving problems is not systems thinking. TROND: No, it's not. Exactly. JESSICA: Solving problems is reactive. It feels productive. It can be heroic. Whereas, the much more subtle and often wider scope of removing the problem, which often falls into the social system. When you change the social system, you can resolve technical problems so that they don't exist. That's a lot more congressive and challenging and slower. TROND: It is and that is probably where STS has struggled. It didn't struggle as much, but that is also here compared to the rest of the world. They said because you have to fight – there is a system already in place and that system is honed in on solving problems as you were saying. JESSICA: That whole line management wants to solve the problem by telling them what workers want to do and it's more important that their solution work, then that a solution work. TROND: Yes, exactly and also, because they are put in a system where that's normal. That is common sense to them. So I often come back to that [inaudible] quote is that I get [inaudible], or something like that is that because a person in a company, he's just a small – In this large company, I'm just a small little tiny piece of it; there's no chance in anyhow that I can change it. JESSICA: Yeah. So as developers, one reason that we focus on technical dilutions and technical design is because we have some control over that. TROND: Yes. JESSICA: We don't feel control over the social system, which is because you can never control a social system; you can only influence it. TROND: So what I try to do in an organization is that I try to find a, change agents around in the organization so I get a broader picture not only understanding it, but also record broader set of attacks, if you like it—I'm not just calling it attacks, but you get my gist—so you can create a more profound change not just a little bit here, a little bit though. Because when you change as society, if we solve problems, we focus on the parts and we focus on the parts, we are not going to fix the hole. That is something that Ackoff was very adamant about and he's probably correct. You can optimize – [overtalk] JESSICA: Wait. Who, what? I didn't understand. TROND: Ackoff. JESSICA: Ackoff, that was that. TROND: So if you optimize every part, you don't necessarily make the system better, but he said, “Thank God, you usually do. You don't make it worse.” [laughs] REIN: Yeah. He uses the example of if you want to make a car, so you take the best engine and the best transmission, and you take all of the best parts and what do you have? You don't have a car. You don't have the best car. You don't even have a car because the parts don't fit together. It's entirely possible to make every part better and to make the system worse and you also sometimes need to make a part worse to make the system better. TROND: And that is fascinating. I think that is absolutely fascinating that you have to do that. I have seen that just recently, for example, in our organization, we have one team that is really good at Agile. They have nailed it almost, this team. But the rest of the organization are not as high level and good at Agile and the organization is not thrilled to be Agile in a sense because it's an old project-oriented organization so it is industrialized in a sense. Then you have one team that want to do STS; they want to be an Agile super team. But when they don't fit with the rest, they actually make the rest worse. So actually, in order to make it the whole better, you can't have this local optimizations, you have to see the whole and then you figure out how to make the whole better based on the part, not the other one. JESSICA: Yeah. Because well, one that self-organizing Agile team can't do that properly without having an impact on the rest of the organization. TROND: Exactly. JESSICA: And when the rest of the organization moves much more slowly, you need a team in there that's slower. And I see this happen. I see Agile teams moving too fast that the business isn't ready to accept that many changes so quickly. So we need a slower – they don't think of it this way, but what they do is they add people. They add people and that slows everything down so you have a system that's twice as expensive in order to go slower. That's my theory. TROND: The fascinating thing, though—and this is where the systems idea comes in—is that if you have this team that really honed this, that they have nailed the whole thing exactly, they're moving as fast as they can and all that. But the rest of it, they'll say it's not, then you have to interact the rest of organization, for example. So they have been bottlenecked everywhere they look. So what they end up doing is that they pull in work, more work than they necessarily can pull through because they have to. Unless they just have to sit waiting. Nobody feels – [overtalk] JESSICA: And then you have nowhere to fucking progress. TROND: Exactly. So then you make it worse – [overtalk] JESSICA: Then you couldn't get anything done. TROND: Exactly! So even a well-working team would actually break in the end because of this. REIN: And we've organized organizations around part maximization. Every way of organizing your business we know of is anti-systemic because they're all about part optimization. Ours is a list of parts and can you imagine going to a director and saying, “Listen, to make this company better, we need to reduce your scope. We need to reduce your budget. We need to reduce your staff. TROND: Yeah. [laughs] That is a hard sell. It is almost impossible. So where I've seen it work—no, I haven't seen that many. But where I've seen that work, you have to have some systemic change coming all the way from the top, basically. Somebody has to come in and say, “Okay, this is going to be painful, but we have to change. The whole thing has to change,” and very few companies want to do that because that's high risk. Why would you do that? So they shook along doing that minor problem-solving here and there and try to fix the things, but they are not getting the systemic change that they probably need. JESSICA: Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why startups wind up eating the lunch of bigger companies; because startups aren't starting from a place that's wrong for what they're now doing. TROND: Exactly. They are free to do it. They have all the freedom that we want the STS team to have. The autonomous sociotechnical systems teams, those are startups. So ideally, you're consisting a lot of startups. REIN: And this gets back to this idea of open systems and the idea of organizationally closed, but structurally open. TROND: Yeah. REIN: It comes from [inaudible] and this idea is that an organization, which is the idea of the organization—IBM as an organization is the idea of IBM, it's not any particular people. IBM stays IBM, but it has to reproduce its structure and they can reproduce its structure in ways that change, build new structure, different structure, but IBM is still IBM. But organizations aren't static and actually, they have to reproduce themselves to adapt and one of the things that I think makes startups better here is that their ability to change their structure as they produce it, they have much more agility. Whereas, a larger organization with much more structure, it's hard to just take the structure and just move it all over here. TROND: Exactly. JESSICA: It's all the other pieces of the system fit with the current system. TROND: Yeah. You have to share every part in order to move. JESSICA: Right. REIN: And also, the identity of a startup is somewhat fluid. Startups can pivot. Can you imagine IBM switching to a car company, or something? TROND: I was thinking exactly the same; you only see pivots in small organizations. Pivots are not normal in large organizations. That will be a no-go. Even if you come and suggested it, “I hear there's a lot of money in being an entrepreneur.” I wouldn't because that would risk everything I have for something that is hypothetical. I wouldn't do that. REIN: Startups, with every part of them, their employees can turn over a 100%, they can get a new CEO, they can get new investors. JESSICA: All at a much faster time scale. TROND: Also, going back to Ackoff, he's saying that we need to go get out of the machine age. Like he said, we have been in the machine age since the Renaissance, we have to get out of that and this is what system thinking is. It's a new age as they call it. Somebody calls it the information age, for example and it's a similar things. But we need to start thinking differently; how to solve problems. The machine has to go, at least for social systems. The machine is still going to be there. We are going to work with machines. We're going to create machines. So machines – [overtalk] JESSICA: We use machines, but our systems are bigger than that. TROND: Yes. JESSICA: Systems are interesting than any machine and when we try build systems as machines, we really limit ourselves. TROND: So I think that is also one of the – I don't know if it's a specific principle for following STS that says that man shouldn't be an extension of the machine, he should be a part of machine. He should be using the machine. He should be like an extension of the machine. JESSICA: Wait. That the man being an extension of machine, the machine should be an extension of man? TROND: Yeah. JESSICA: Right. [inaudible] have a really good tool, you feel that? TROND: Mm hm. REIN: This actually shows up in joint cognitive systems, which shares a lot with sociotechnical systems, as this idea that there are some tools through which you perceive the world that augment you and there are other tools that represent the world. Some tools inside you and you use them to interact with the world, you interact with the world using them to augment your abilities, and there are other tools that you have just a box here that represents the world and you interact with the box and your understanding of the world is constrained by what the box gives you. These are two completely different forms of toolmaking and what Stafford Beer, I think it might say is that there are tools that augment your variety, that augment your ability to manage complexity, and there are tools that reduce complexity, there are tools that attenuate complexity. JESSICA: Jean Yang was talking about this the other day with respect to developer tools. There are tools like Heroku that reduce complexity for you. You just deploy the thing, just deploy it and internally, Heroku is dealing with a lot of complexity in order to give you that abstraction. And then there are other tools, like Honeycomb, that expose complexity and help you deal with the complexity inherent in your system. TROND: Yeah. Just to go back so I get this quote right is that the individual is treated as a complimentary to machine rather than an extension of it. JESSICA: Wait, what is treating this complimentary to machine? TROND: The individual. JESSICA: The individual. TROND: The person, yeah. Because that is what you see in machine shops and those are also what happened in England when they called mining work again, even more industrialized, people are just an extension of the machine. JESSICA: We don't work like that. TROND: Yeah. I feel like that sometimes, I must admit, that I'm part of the machine. That I'm just a cog in the machine and we are not well-equipped to be cogs in machines, I think. Though, we should be. REIN: Joint cognitive systems call this the embodiment relation where the artifact is transparent and it's a part of the operator rather than the application so you can view the world through it but it doesn't restrict you. And then the other side is the hermeneutic relation. So hermeneutics is like biblical hermeneutics is about the interpretation of the Bible. So the hermeneutic relation is where the artifact interprets the world for you and then you view the artifact. So like for example, most of the tools we use to respond to incidents, logs are hermeneutic artifacts. They present their interpretation of the world and we interact with that interpretation. What I think of as making a distinction between old school metrics and observability, is observability is more of an embodiment relationship. Observability lets you ask whatever question you want; you're not restricted to what you specifically remember to log, or to count. TROND: Exactly. And this is now you're getting into the area where I think actually STS – now we have talked about a lot about STS in the industrial context here, but I think it's not less, maybe even more relevant now because especially when we're moving into the so-called Fourth Industrial Revolution where the machines have taken over more and more. Like, for example, AI, or machine learning, or whatever. Because then the machine has taken more and more control over our lives. So I think we need this more than even before because the machines before were simple in comparison and they were not designed by somebody in the same sense that for example, AI, or machine learning was actually developed. I wouldn't say AI because it's still an algorithm underneath, but it does have some learning in it and we don't know what the consequences of that is, as I said. So I think it's even more relevant now than it was before. JESSICA: Yeah. TROND: [chuckles] I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Fourth Industrial Revolution, or see, that is. JESSICA: Or hear something about it. You want to define it to our listeners? TROND: Somebody called it this hyperphysical systems. JESSICA: Hyperphysical? TROND: Yes, somebody called it hyperphysical systems. I'm not sure if you want to go too much into that, to be honest, but. So the Fourth Industrial Revolution is basically about the continuous automation of manufacturing and industrial practices using smart technology, machine-to-machine communication, internet of things, machine learning improves communication and self-monitoring and all that stuff. We see the hint of it, that something is coming and that is that different type of industry than what we currently are in. I think the Industrial 4.0 was probably coined in Germany somewhere. So there's a definition that something is coming out of that that is going to put the humans even more on the sideline and I think for us working in I, we see some of this already. The general public, maybe don't at the same level. REIN: So this reminds me of this other idea from cognitive systems that there are four stages, historical stages, in the development of work. There's mechanization, which replaces human muscle power with mechanical power and we think of that as starting with the original industrial revolution, but it's actually much older than that with agriculture, for example. Then there's automation, there's a centralization, and then there's computerization. Centralization has happened on a shorter time span and computerization has happened at a very short time span relative to mechanization. So one of the challenges is that we got really good at mechanization because we've been doing it since 500 BC. We're relatively less good at centering cognition in the work. The whole point of mechanization and automation was to take cognition out of the work and realizing you have to put it back in, it's becoming much more conspicuous that people have to think to do their work. TROND: Yeah. JESSICA: Because we're putting more and more of the work into the machine and yet in much software system, many software systems especially like customer facing systems, we need that software to not just be part of the machine, to not do the same thing constantly on a timescale of weeks and months. We need it to evolve, to participate in our cognition as we participate in the larger economy. TROND: Yeah. REIN: And one of the ironies of this automation—this comes from Bainbridge's 1983 paper—is that when you automate a task, you don't get rid of a task. You make a new task, which is managing the automation, and this task is quite different from the task you were doing before and you have no experience with it. You may not even have training with it. So automation doesn't get rid of work; automation mutates work into a new unexpected form. JESSICA: Right. One of the ironies of automation is that now you have created that management at the automation and you think, “Oh, we have more automation. We can pay the workers less.” Wrong. You could pay the workers more. Now collectively, the automation plus the engineers who are managing it are able to do a lot more, but you didn't save money. You added a capability, but you did not save money. REIN: Yeah, and part of that is what you can automate are the things we know how to automate, which are the mechanical tasks and what's left when you automate all of the mechanical tasks are the ones that require thinking. TROND: And that's where we're moving into now, probably that's what the Fourth Industrial Revolution is. We try and automate this stuff that probably shouldn't be automated. Maybe, I don't know. JESSICA: Or it shouldn't be automated in a way that we can't change. TROND: No, exactly. REIN: This is why I'm not buying stock in AI ops companies because I don't think we figured out how to automate decision-making yet. JESSICA: I don't think we want to automate decision-making. We want to augment. TROND: Yeah, probably. So we're back to that same idea that the STS said we should be complimentary to machine, not an extension of it. JESSICA: Yes. That's probably a good place to wrap up? TROND: Yeah. REIN: Yeah. There's actually a paper by the way, Ten Challenges in Making Automation A Team Player. JESSICA: [laughs] Or you can watch my talk on collaborative automation. TROND: Yeah. JESSICA: Do you want to do reflections? REIN: Sure. JESSICA: I have a short reflection. One quote that I wrote down that you said, Trond in the middle of something was “You are capable of taking in stuff that you didn't know you see,” and that speaks to, if you don't know you see it, you can't automate the seeing of it. Humans are really good at the everything else of what is going on. This is our human superpower compared to any software that we can design and that's why I am big on this embodiment relation. Don't love the word, but I do love tools that make it easier for me to make and implement decisions that give me superpowers and then allow me to combine that with my ability to take input from the social system and incorporate that. TROND: I can give it a little bit of an anecdote. My background is not IT. I come from physics—astrophysics, to be specific—and what we were drilled in physics is that you should take the person out of the system. You should close the system as much as possible. Somebody said you have to take a human out of it if you want observe. Physics is you have no environment, you have no people, there's nothing in it so it's completely closed, but we work and here, it's complete opposite. I work in a completely open system where the human part is essential. JESSICA: We are not subject to the second law of thermodynamics. TROND: No, we are not. That is highly restricted for a closed system. We are not. So the idea of open system is something that I think we all need to take on board and we are the best one to deal with those open systems. We do it all the time, every day, just walking with a complex open system. I mean, everything. JESSICA: Eating. TROND: Eating, yeah. REIN: And actually, one of the forms, or the ways that openness was thought of is informational openness. Literally about it. JESSICA: That's [inaudible] take in information. TROND: Yeah. Entropy. JESSICA: Yeah. TROND: Yeah, exactly. And we are capable of controlling that variance, we are the masters of that. Humans, so let's take advantage of that. That's our superpower as humans. REIN: Okay, I can go. So we've been talking a little bit about how the cognitive demands of work are changing and one of the things that's happening is that work is becoming higher tempo. Decisions have to be made more quickly and higher criticality. Computers are really good at making a million mistakes a second. So if you look at something like the Knight Capital incident; a small bug can lose your company half a billion dollars in an instant. So I think what we're seeing is that this complexity, if you combine that with the idea of requisite variety, the complexity of work is exploding and what we call human error is actually a human's inability to cope with complexity. I think if we want to get human error under control, what we have to get better at is managing complexity, not controlling it – [overtalk] JESSICA: And not by we and by we don't mean you, the human get better at this! This system needs to support the humans in managing additional complexity. REIN: Yeah. We need to realize that the nature of work has changed, that it presents these new challenges, and that we need to build systems that support people because work has never been this difficult. JESSICA: Both, social and technical systems. TROND: No, exactly. Just to bring it back to where we started with the coal miners in England. Working there was hard, it was life-threatening; people died in the mines. So you can imagine this must be terrible, but it was a quite closed system, to be honest, compared to what we have. That environment is fairly closed. It isn't predictable at the same size, but we are working in an environment that is completely open. It's turbulent, even. So we need to focus on the human aspect of things. We can't just treat things that machines does work. JESSICA: Thank you for coming to this episode of Greater Than Code. TROND: Yeah, happy to be here. Really fun. It was a fun discussion. REIN: So that about does it for this episode of Greater Than Code. Thank you so much for listening wherever you are. If you want to spend more time with this awesome community, if you donate even $1 to our Patreon, you can come to us on Slack and you can hang out with all of us and it is a lot of fun. Special Guest: Trond Hjorteland.

01:13 - Andrea's Superpower: Distilling Complexity * Approaching Copywriting in a Programmatic Way * Word-land vs Abstract-land 09:00 - “Technical” vs “Non-Technical” * This or That Thinking 16:20 - Empathy is Critical * Communication Artifacts * Audience/User Impact * Programmer Aptitude Test (PAT) 33:00 - Reforming Hiring Practices and Systems * Core Values * Exercism.io (https://exercism.io/) * Retrospectives 39:28 - Performance Reviews * Continuous Feedback * Brave New Work by Aaron Dignan (https://www.bravenewwork.com/) * Team of Teams: New Rules of Engagement for a Complex World (https://www.amazon.com/Team-Teams-Rules-Engagement-Complex/dp/1591847486) * Continuous Improvement & Marginal Gains “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.” ~ Arthur Ashe Empathy In Tech (https://www.empathyintech.com/) Corgibytes (https://corgibytes.com/) Reflections: Mando: Empathy is being able to view and identify other perspectives. Jess: Help happens when you have empathy for individuals who aren't the great majority of people using the software. Casey: The best way to develop empathy for someone else is to get their feedback. Do it during an interview! Andrea: Diving deeper than code is valuable! This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: JESSICA: Good morning and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 237. I'm Jessica Kerr and I'm happy to be here today with my friend, Mando Escamilla! MANDO: Hey, Jess. Thanks. I am happy to be here with my friend, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey and we're all here with Andrea Goulet. Andrea is a sought-after keynote speaker for conferences around the world, empowering audiences to deepen their technical skills for understanding and communicating with others. She is best known for her work defining Empathy-Driven Development, a framework that helps software engineers anchor their decisions and deliverables on the perspectives of the people who will be impacted by what they create. Andrea is a co-founder of Corgibytes, a software consultancy that helps organizations pay down technical debt and modernize legacy systems. You can recognize her by the JavaScript tattoo on her wrist. Welcome, Andrea. ANDREA: Hi, welcome! Nice to be here. CASEY: We always like to start with a question, which I think you're prepared for, that is what is your superpower, Andrea, and how did you acquire it? ANDREA: Yeah! First of all, I just love that y'all ask this. I think it's just such a nice way to get to know different people. I was thinking about this because you sent it a little bit ago and I was thinking maybe empathy, given the work I do. But I don't actually think that's it. I feel like I'm constantly trying to learn more about empathy, but I do think that what my superpower is, is distilling complexity. So I went back and looked at what the thread is of all the recommendations I've got on LinkedIn and things like that. It's not something that I would necessarily say that I noticed, but it's something that other people have noticed about me. The idea of taking a really abstract and big, gnarly, complex topic, and being able to distill it down to its essence and then communicate either what the importance is, or what the impact is to other people. I think that's why I've gravitated towards big, gnarly things like legacy code. [chuckles] Because what motivates me is impact and how do we have the work that we do make as big of an impact as possible? So the way I got into software was really a twisty and windy road. I started out as a copywriter and I think that's where the distilling complexity comes down because I would sit with clients and learn all about their businesses. And then I would write typically, a website, or some kind of marketing material and they would say, “You said what was in my head and I couldn't say it.” JESSICA: Wow. ANDREA: And when I got into software, I had a friend of mine from high school, Scott, who's my co-founder at Corgibytes, he came up to me because I had been writing about my writing and he said, “You're not a writer, you're actually a programmer because the way that your brain works, you're thinking in terms of inputs and manipulating data and outputs, and that's exactly what a programmer does.” So then, he wanted to fix legacy code for a living. I didn't even know what that was at that point, thought it was a good thing and I found that my ability to both walk in and understand not just the syntax of what's going on, but the business challenges and how everything links together. With that, you can create a sense of cohesion on a team and getting different people to work together and different people to see each other's points of view, because when you're able to distill a perspective over here and say, “Okay, well, this is what this person's trying to say,” and still, this over here. “Okay, I think this is what this person's trying to say.” I feel like a lot of times I am kind of like a translator, but it's taken me a long time. I've been in software 12 years now and I still have massive imposter syndrome like, I don't belong because I'm not the fastest person on the keyboard. I really struggle with working memory. My visualization is really a struggle, but I do really great in an ensemble. When I started ensemble programming—sometimes it's referred to as mob programming—I was like, “I can do this. Oh my gosh, this makes sense and I belong.” I think just over the years, little things like hearing the joke – I was at a conference, Jess, I think this may have been ETE when you and I connected, but I heard a joke and it was, I think Phil Carlton had first said it and it was like, “There's only two hard problems in computer science, cache invalidation and naming things,” and then somebody else said, “Off-by-1 errors.” I remember I was like, “Y'all think naming things is hard?” Like, help me understand how that's hard because that's – JESSICA: [inaudible]? Oh my gosh, that's hard. ANDREA: Yeah, and to me, it just comes so naturally. I think that's kind of the thing is figuring out where is your trait, where's your skillset. I remember when I first started doing open source contributions, I haven't done those in a long time, but just going in and modifying the language on help messages and turning them from passive to active voice. They got accepted, it was on some high-profile projects, and it was like, I didn't really feel like I was even doing much and I still feel like, “Is that even a big deal?” But I think that's kind of the definition of a superpower a little bit is that – JESSICA: Yeah, it's easy for you. [laughs] ANDREA: You don't recognize that it's hard for other people. Yeah, and so it's neat now that it's like I'm starting to come into my own and leaning into that, and then helping other people see that the way that I approach naming things, the way I approach copywriting is actually in a very programmatic way. It's leaning on frameworks. It's leaning on patterns that I use over time. I know, Casey, you and I have talked last week about like when I first go to a conference like using open-ended questions versus closed-ended questions and these little kind of communication hacks that I've developed over the years. So now putting those together in a framework to help other people remember that when we're coding, we're not coding for a computer, we're coding through a computer for other people. The computer is just like a code is just a tool. It's a powerful tool. But a lot of times – CASEY: I have a question for you, Andrea. ANDREA: Yeah. CASEY: About that, I find myself switching gears between word land and abstract land. So if I'm coding and I'm not thinking of words, the naming is hard, but sometimes I can switch gears in a different head space. It's like a different me and then I'm naming things really well. Especially if I'm looking at someone else's code, I don't have to be an abstract land; they did that part already. Do you find yourself switching between the two? ANDREA: Oh, all the time. Yeah, and especially, too, when you're writing prose. There's two different kind of aspects of your brain. There's the creative conceptual side and then there's the analytical rational side and everybody has both. So it does require you to come out of the abstract side in that and then move into more of the analytical space, which is why I love pairing. I love coding as a group because then that way, it's like the mental model is shared and so, I can stay in my world of naming things really well, or I don't know that we need to be that precise if we try to – like, when I was in one group and they were trying to have a timing thing and it was like down to the millisecond and I was like, “Y'all, we don't need to be that precise. We just need to have this check once every 10 minutes,” and that saved like 6 hours of work. Just being able to say that thing and be the checkpoint. JESSICA: Yeah. Someone has to be super down in the details of what to type next and it helps to have someone else thinking about it at the broader perspective of why are we doing this? ANDREA: Yeah, and that's me, typically and I love that role, but it's very different than I think what goes through people's minds when they envision a software developer. JESSICA: Yeah, maybe they envisioned the things that software developers do that other people don't. Typing curly braces. ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: I still think of that when I'm doing it. When I think of myself as a software developer, I think of myself as the person who hasn't gotten up from their desk in 5 hours and just hunched over, just blazing fast hacking on something that probably is kind of dumb. [laughter] But when I don't spend my day like that, I don't really feel exactly like I've been doing my job and it's something that I struggle with because I know that's not the job in its totality by any means and it doesn't mean that I'm not getting good work done. JESSICA: Not even close to most of the job. MANDO: Not even close to most of the job, you're exactly right. JESSICA: Like you said, if you're sitting there for 5 hours by yourself, hunched over your computer, you're probably hacking on something dumb. MANDO: Right. [laughter] JESSICA: We had gotten off on a tangent somewhere without someone to be like, “Why are we doing this again?” MANDO: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. ANDREA: Well, and I think that that has been a personal challenge of mine as well. I know there was a really flashbulb moment for me. Scott and I have been running our business together for a couple of years. We had gotten on our first podcast and he was telling our origin story and he used the phrase, “Andrea, she's the non-technical founder.” When I heard it, I was like, “How dare you? I have for 2 years been sitting right next to you,” and then he said, “Well, that's the term you use to describe yourself all the time. We had been in a sales meeting right before I recorded that podcast and that's literally the words you use to introduce yourself. So once you start calling yourself technical, I'll follow suit.” JESSICA: Wow. ANDREA: It really made me think and I think some of it is because whenever I go to conferences, I don't look like other people who code especially 12 years ago. I don't talk like the people who are typically stereotypical developers and the first question I would get asked, probably 25 to 40% of the time from people I met were, “Hi! Are you technical, or non-technical?” JESSICA: Really? ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: Ugh. JESSICA: Huh. ANDREA: And that would be the first thing out of the gate. At the time, I didn't have the kind of mental awareness to go, “I'm at a technical conference. I think you can assume I'm technical.” The fact is I was scared to call myself technical and over the years, I'm just like, “What does that mean to be technical and why do we define people by you are either technical, or you have nothing?” Non-technical, you have zero technical skills, you don't belong. JESSICA: So after you had that conversation with Scott, did you switch to calling yourself technical? Did you change your language? ANDREA: It has been a journey. I became very conscious of not using non-technical. I'll sometimes then say like, “I struggle with syntax and I'm really, really good at these things.” When I phrase things that way, or “I have engineers who are so much better and have much deeper expertise in Docker and Kubernetes than I do. I'm really good at explaining the big picture and why this happens.” So it becomes, I think what we do in software is that because we're so used to thinking in binaries, because that's the way we need to make our code work—true/false, if/else, yes/no—and that pattern naturally extends itself into human relationships, too. Because I know that every single person who asked me that question in no way was trying to be rude, or shut me out. I know that the intention behind it was kind and trying to be inclusive. But from my perspective, when half the people walk up to you and go, “Do you belong here?” Then it's like, “I don't know. Do I belong here?” JESSICA: Yeah. ANDREA: So that's an example of how, if you're at a conference saying, “What brings you here?” That's very open-ended and then it gives everybody the chance to say what brings them here and there's no predefined, “Do you fit in this bucket, or that bucket? Are you part of us, or are you part of them?” JESSICA: It's open to surprise. ANDREA: Mm hm and I think that's something that I am really good at. That's my superpower is let's see the complexity and then let's see the patterns and let's figure out how we can all get good work done together. But you can't see the complexity unless you take a step back. JESSICA: Yeah, and yet Scott noticed that when you are thinking that way, you are thinking like a programmer. Because while software starts by getting us used to thinking in binaries—I should say programming. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: It's just thinking of binaries, as soon as you get up to software and software systems, you have to think in complexity. ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: And like you were saying, Andrea, I find myself nowadays better recognizing when I'm falling into that trap when I'm not talking about work stuff. When I find myself saying, “Well, it's this, or it's this.” It's like, “Is it really this, or this?” JESSICA: Are these the only options? ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: Yeah. Do I have to eat Thai food, or pizza tonight, or could I just eat ice cream, or a salad, or…? [laughs] ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: You know what I mean? It's a silly example, but I don't know, there's something about doing this for a while that I find that kind of this, or that thinking wiring itself into my brain. JESSICA: Yeah. ANDREA: Yeah. Well, and I think that that's normal and that's human. We operate on heuristics. There's the whole neurons that fire together wire together and if you're spending the majority of your time in this thought pattern, adopting something else can be a challenge. So to me, it's like trying to describe how the way I navigate the world in being able to name things well and being able to talk to new people, connect dots, see patterns that I rely on frameworks just as much as I do when I code and trying to figure out what are those things. What are those things? JESSICA: Yeah, because you don't have to import that top level file from the framework in order to use it. So it's not explicit that you're using it. ANDREA: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So that's been my challenge is that as Scott is like, “Well, help me understand.” I'm like, “I, uh. I don't know. I do this.” That was where I nailed on empathy as really critical and it's been fascinating because when I first started about 5 years writing and talking about empathy in software, the first thing I noticed were all the patterns. I was like, “A really well-written commit message, that's empathy.” That is taking the time to document your rationale so that it's easier for somebody behind you. Refactoring a method so that it's easy to read, deleting the dead code so that it's less burdensome, even logging. Looking at logging in C versus Ruby, it's night and day. JESSICA: Help messages. ANDREA: Yeah. There's a little moment. MANDO: Non-happy path decisions in code. Guardrails. All that stuff. ANDREA: Yeah. So I started thinking in terms of communication artifacts. All of these little things that we're producing are just artifacts of our thinking and you can't produce a communication artifact unless you are considering a perspective. What I noticed, of the perspective, is that a lot of software developers had been trained to take was that of the compiler. I want to make the compiler happy. I want to make the code work. That's a very specific practice of perspective taking that is useful if you're imagining okay, we don't have to get rid of that and we need to add the recognition that the perspectives taking needs to go the compiler into who will be interacting with what you're creating and that is on both the other side of the UI, if there is one, or working on the code that you've written maybe six months from now and that can be your future self. And then also, who will be impacted by the work that you create, because not everybody who is impacted by the decisions that you make will be directly interacting with and when I'm writing content, or that is the framework is getting to know the audiences really well, doing good qualitative research. So that's kind of the difference between the open-ended versus closed-ended questions. Then being able to perspective change and then along the way, there are little communication hacks, but just thinking about every single thing that you produce—and no, I have not come across a communication artifact, or a thing that is produced while coding that is not somehow rooted in empathy. JESSICA: Because it's communication and you can't communicate – [overtalk] ANDREA: It's all communication. JESSICA: At all without knowing what is going to be received and how that will be interpreted. ANDREA: Yeah. Similar to test-driven development, where we're framing things in terms of unit tests and just thinking about the test before we write the code. In the same way, we're thinking about the perspective of other people—we can still think of the compiler—and anchoring our decisions on how it will impact other people. JESSICA: It's making the compiler happy. That's just table stakes. That's absolute minimum. ANDREA: Yeah. Well, it's been fascinating because this part of this project. So I'm writing a book now, which is super exciting and by far, the hardest thing I've ever done. But one of the things that, because I'm curious, I'm like, “Why? How did we get here? How did we get here where, by all objective measures, I should have been able to go into computer science without a problem and feel like –?” JESSICA: Think of yourself as technical without a problem. ANDREA: Yeah. Why do I still struggle and why did we extract empathy out of this? So looking at the history of it has been fascinating because as the computer science industry grew, there was a moment in the mid-60s. There was a test, like a survey, that went out to just under 1,400 people called the Canon Perry vocational test for computer programmers. It was vocational satisfaction, I think. But it was measuring the satisfaction of programmers and they were trying assess what does a satisfied programmer look like. There were many, many problems with the methodology of this, including the people who they didn't define who a programmer was, the people self-defined. So it's like, if you felt like you were programmer, then you were a programmer, but there was no objective. Like, this is what a programmer is prior to selecting the audience, the survey respondents and then when they evaluated the results, they only used professional men. They didn't include any professional women in their comparison study. So the women in the study, there are illustrations and the women are not presented as professionals, they are presented as sex objects in a research paper. The scientific programmers, they're the ones who get the girl and she's all swooning. The business programmers are very clearly stated as less than and they're shy. The girl is like, “I don't want you.” JESSICA: That have like comics, or something? ANDREA: It was comics, yeah. They had like comic illustrations in there. Okay, it's a survey, what's the big deal? Well, from 1955 through the mid-90s, there was an aptitude test from IBM called the Programmer Aptitude Test, the PAT. In there, Walter McNamara from IBM, who created it, went out, had empathy, and was like, “Okay, let's talk to our customers, what does a good programmer look like,” and determined that logical reasoning was the number one attribute. Okay, sounds good. But then he said, “Well, if logical reasoning is the most important attitude, then we need to create a timed 1-hour math test.” What's interesting to me is that in that, there is a logical fallacy in and of itself, called a non-sequitur, [chuckles] where it's like all humans are mammals, bingo a mammal. Therefore, bingo is a human. That's an example of a non-sequitur. That's what happened where it was determined logical reasoning is important to computer science and programming. All mathematics is logical reasoning. Therefore, mathematics is the only way to measure the capability that somebody has for logical reasoning. That, saying, “Okay, we don't care about communication skills. We don't care about empathy. We don't care about any of that. Just are you good at math?” And then the PAT's study—I've been diving into the bowels of the ACM and looking at primary resource documents for the past several months—and there was an internal memo where Charles McNamara referred to the Canon Perry study in 1967 and said, “The PAT was given to 700,000 people last year and next year, we should incorporate these findings into the PAT,” and the PAT became the de facto way to get into computer science. So these are decisions that were made long before me and so, what you end up getting then – and then also in 1968, there was what's called, there was a NATO conference on software engineering and they said, “We really need to bring rigor into computer science. We need to make this very rigorous.” Again, there were no men at this conference. It was about standards and Grace Hopper wasn't even invited, even though she was like – [overtalk] JESSICA: There were no women in the conference. ANDREA: There were no women. JESSICA: No non-men. ANDREA: No non-men, yes. So you start to see stereotypes getting built and one of the stereotypes became, if you look like this and you are good at math, then you are good at programming. I'm very good at logical reasoning, but I struggle to do a time capsule. I have ADHD and that is something that's very, very, very challenging for me. So that coupled with and then you get advertising where it's marketed, too. MANDO: Yeah. ANDREA: So we need to undo all of this. We can recognize, okay, we can refactor all of this, but it takes recognizing the complexity and how did it all come to be and then changing it one thing at a time. CASEY: A lot of what you've just been talking about makes me think about Dungeons and Dragons and Skyrim for a little nerdy segue. ANDREA: Yeah. CASEY: You have skill trees. You could be a really, really good warrior, very good at math, very good at wielding your sword, and then if you measure how good you are at combat by how big your fireball spell can be, how many you can shoot, how accurate you are, you're missing that whole skill tree of ability, of power that you have. ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: What I find so fascinating is when I was going through the computer science program that I never finished and this was like a million years ago. When I was in college, there was a very specific logical reasoning class that you had to take as part of the CS program at UT. But it wasn't a math class, it was a philosophy class and I think that's pretty common that logistics studies fall under schools of philosophy, not the schools of mathematics. So it was really interesting to me that these dudes just completely missed the mark, right? [laughs] ANDREA: It is the definition of irony and not Alanis Morrissette kind of way, right? [chuckles] I think that's the thing it's like – and this isn't to say the Walter McNamara was a bad person like, we all make mistakes. But to me, again, this is about impact and if one, or two people can have the ability to create a test that impacts millions of people across generations to help them feel whether, or not they belong in even contributing to building software. Because I always felt like I was a user of software—I was always a superuser—but for some reason, I felt like the other side of the interface, the command line, it was like Oz. It was like that's where the wizards live and I'm not allowed there. It's like, how do we just tear down that curtain and say, “Y'all, there is no – no, this was all built on like false assumptions”? How do we have a retrospective and say, “When we can look at a variety of different perspectives, then we get such stronger products.” We get such stronger code. We minimize technical debt in addition to hopefully, staving off biases that get built into the software. I think it's very similar of human systems, very similar to software systems. It's like, how can we roll back? If we make a mistake and it impacts human systems, how can we fix that as fast as possible, rather than just letting things persist? JESSICA: When you're talking about who can be a good software developer, when you're talking about who is technical, who is valuable, you don't want rigor in that! ANDREA: Right!
 JESSICA: That's not appropriate. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: You want open questions. ANDREA: Yeah, and that is exactly what happened, was people conflate rigor and data with accuracy. There's a bias towards if it's got numbers behind it, it must be real, but you can manipulate data just as much as you can manipulate other things. So the PAT then said, “Okay, well, if you can't pass the PAT, then we'll create all of these other types of tests, so you could be a console operator, or you could be a data analyst.” What's fascinating is when you go back, the thing that was at the very bottom of the Cannon Perry survey, in terms of valuable development activities, was software maintenance. JESSICA: And that's everything now. ANDREA: Yeah!
 JESSICA: Back then, they didn't have a lot of software. MANDO: Yeah. JESSICA: They didn't have open source libraries. If they needed something, they wrote it. ANDREA: But the stereotypes persist. JESSICA: Yeah. MANDO: 100%. ANDREA: The first evidence I found, again, was in 1967. There was a study of 12 people, all of whom were trainees at a company, which that would be a wild – they hadn't even – [overtalk] JESSICA: So this is like even less than interviewing your grad students. ANDREA: Well, yeah. JESSICA: Or your undergrads for your graduate research paper, yes. ANDREA: They measured how quickly someone could solve a problem and they ranked them, and then they made the claim that you can save 25 times—this is the first myth of the 25x developer. Well, it got published in the ACM and then IBM picked it up and then McKinsey picked it up, and then it's just, you get the myth of the full-stack unicorn who's going to come in and save everything! What's interesting is all of these things go back and I think they were formed out of good intention in terms of understanding our world and we understand now, exactly like you said, Jess. That's not the right way to go about it because then people who are really needed on software teams don't feel like they belong and it's like, “Well, do you belong?” JESSICA: That's an outsized impact for such a tiny study. ANDREA: Yeah. So that gets me thinking, what kinds of things am I doing that might have an outside impact? JESSICA: And can we make that impact positive? ANDREA: Yeah, and when we find out that it wasn't, can we learn from our mistakes? I think one of the things, too, is taking the idea of as people are coding. It's like, “Well, who's actually going to read this?” That's something I hear a lot. I used to feel that way about all tags. I'm like, “Who actually reads all tags?” But then my friend, Taylor, was in a car accident and lost his vision. and he was like, “I absolutely need all tags,” and I'll tell you, that changed everything for me. Because it went from this abstract, “I have to check this box. I have to type something in, and describe this photo” to “I care about my friend Taylor and how can I make this experience as best for him as possible?” That is empathy because in order to have empathy, you have to connect with a single individual. Empathy is – and actually, when you do form empathy for a group, you get polarization. So empathy cuts both ways. It can be both very positive, but also very – [overtalk] CASEY: [inaudible] on the individual goes a long way. So for our discussion here, I can share an individual I've been talking to about this kind of problem. I have a friend who's a woman trying to get her first software developer role and she has to study how to hack the coding interview for a lot of the places where she wants to work, which is literally studying algorithms that you probably won't use in the job. I had an interview a few years ago that was the Google style algorithms interview for a frontend role. Frontend developers don't write algorithms, generally. Not unless you're working on the core of the framework maybe. It was completely irrelevant. I rejected them. I think they rejected me back, too probably. [laughter] But I wouldn't work there because of the hiring process. But my friend, who is a woman in tech trying to get in, doesn't have that kind of leeway to project. She wants to get her first job whoever it is – [overtalk] MANDO: She wants a job, yeah. CASEY: That is willing to use the bias system like that and to hack that system to study it specifically how to get around it, which isn't really helping anyone. ANDREA: Yeah. CASEY: So how can we help reform the system so she doesn't have to do that kind of thing and so, people like her don't have to, to get into tech? I don't know, my boycotting that one company is a very small impact; how do we get a company's hiring practices to change is a hard problem. ANDREA: It is a very hard problem. I can share what we are doing in Corgibytes to try to make a difference. I think the first thing is that in our hiring process, we have core values mapped to them and these are offshoots of our main core values, one of which is communication is just as important as code. So we have that every single applicant will get a response and that seems so like, duh, but the number of people who are here who are just ghosted, submit an application and it goes out into the ether. That is, in my opinion, disrespectful. We have an asynchronous screening interview, so it's an application and it's take your time, fill it out, and it's questions like, “What's an article you found interesting and why?” and “What do you love about modernizing legacy code?” Some people need that time to think and just to formulate an answer and so, taking some of that pressure off, and then at the end of our – we have all of our questions mapped to our core values. I'm still trying to figure out how we can get away from more the dreaded technical interviews, but we don't use the whiteboard, but we also have a core value of anything that someone does for us, in terms of whether they show up for an interview, they will walk away with just as much benefit. They will have an artifact of learning something, or spec work is I think, immoral to some of these core things. So we use Exercism for us, so Katrina Owens, as a way of like, “Okay, show us a language that you're like really familiar with.” And then because with what we do, you just get tossed into if it's like, “Okay, let's pick Scala.” It's like you've never tried functional programming before, but then just, it's more of seeing the mindset. Because I think it's challenging because we tried getting rid of them all together and we did have some challenges when it came to then client upper-level goals and doing the job. So it's a balance, I think and then at the end of our interviews doing retrospectives telling the candidate, “Here's what you did really well in this interview, here's where it didn't quite land for me,” because I think interviewing is hard and like you said, Casey, especially now post-COVID, I think more and more people have the power to leave jobs. So I think the power, especially in software development, for people who have had at least their first position, they have a lot more power to walk out the door than they did before. So as an employer and as somebody who's creating these, that's what I'm doing and then if we get feedback and the whole idea with empathy is you're never going to be able to be perfect. Because you don't have the data for the perspective of every single person, but being open and listening and when you do make mistakes, owning up to them, and fixing them as fast as possible. If we all did that, we can make a lot of progress on a lot of fronts really fast. CASEY: I'm so glad your company has those good hiring practices. You're really thinking about it, how to do it in a supportive, ethical, and equitable way. I wonder, we probably don't have the answer here today, but how can we get more companies to do that? I think you sharing here might help several companies, if their leadership are listening. and that's awesome. Spreading the message, talking about it more—that's one thing. Glad we're doing that. MANDO: Yeah. The place that I work at, we're about to start interviewing some folks and I really like the idea of having a retrospective with the candidate after maybe a couple of days, or whenever after the interview and taking the time, taking the 30 minutes or whatever, to sit down and say, “If I'm going to take time to reach out to them anyway and say, ‘You're moving on to the next round,' or ‘We have an offer for you, or not,' then I should be willing to sit down with them and explain why.'” ANDREA: Well, I think the benefit goes both ways, actually. We do it right in our interviews. So we actually say the last 15 minutes, we're going to set aside on perspectives. MANDO: Oh wow, okay. ANDREA: So we do and that's something that we prep for ahead of time. We get feedback of what went well [chuckles] and what we can do better and what we can change. MANDO: Yeah. ANDREA: Because otherwise, as an employer, it's like, I have no idea. I'm just kind of going off into the ether, but then I can hear from other people's perspectives and it's like, okay and then we can change things. But that's an example of, we think of employer versus employee and it's like that's another dichotomy. It's like no, we're all trying to get good work done. JESSICA: Andrea, how do you do performance reviews? ANDREA: We're still trying to crack that, but there's definitely a lot of positive psychology involved and what we are trying to foster is the idea of continuous performance, or continuous feedback is what we call it. So we definitely don't do any kind of forced ranking and that's a branch of things that have contributed to challenges. We have one-on-ones, we check in with people, but a lot of it, I think is asking people what they want to be doing, genuinely. As a small company, we're like 25 people. I think it's easier in a small company, but part of it is – and we were constantly doing this with ourselves, too. My business partner was like, “I really want to try to be the CEO. I've always wanted to be the CEO.” So I stepped back actually during COVID. We focus on being a really responsive team and so, then that way, it's less about the roles. It's less about rigidity. There's a really great book in terms of operations called Brave New Work by Aaron Dignan. It has a lot of operational principles around this. Team of Teams is another really good one. But just thinking through like, what's the work that needs to be done, how can we organize around it, and then thinking of it in terms of more of responsibilities instead of roles. JESSICA: I want to think of it as a relationship. It's like, I'm not judging you as a developer, instead we're evaluating the relationship of you in this position, in this role at this company. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: How is that serving the company? How is that serving you? ANDREA: Yes, and I think that's a big piece of it is – and also, recognizing the context is really important and trying to be as flexible as possible, but then also recognizing constraints. So there have been times where it's like, “This isn't working,” but trying to use radical candor as much as you can, that's something we've been working on. But trying to give feedback as early and as often as possible and making that a cultural norm as to the, “Oh, I get the 360 feedback at the end, twice a year,” like that. JESSICA: Yeah, I'm sorry, if you can't tell me anything within two weeks, don't bother. ANDREA: Yeah. But one example is like we've fostered this and as a leader, I want people who are going to tell me where I'm stepping in it and where I'm messing up. So I kind of use – [overtalk] JESSICA: Yeah, at least that retrospective at the end of the interview says that. ANDREA: Mm hm, but even with my staff, it's like – [overtalk] JESSICA: [inaudible] be able to say, “Hey, you didn't send me a Google Calendar invite,” and they'd be like, “Oh my gosh, we should totally be doing that.” Did anybody tell them that? No! ANDREA: Yeah, totally. So I don't claim to have the answers, but these are just little experiments that we're trying and I think we really lean on the idea of continuous improvement and marginal gains. Arthur Ash had a really great quote, “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.” I think that's the thing, the whole point of the empathy during development framework is that if you're a developer working on the backend writing a nice commit message, or giving quality feedback on a pull request, instead of just a “Thumbs up, looks good to me.” That's a small act of empathy that you can start doing right away. You don't need to run it by anybody, really, hopefully. If you do, that's a problem [chuckles] your manager and we've seen that. But there are small ways that you can be empowered and leaning into those small moments, doing it again and again, and then creating opportunities to listen. Because empathy, I think the other thing is that people tend to think that it's a psychic ability. You're either data, or your Deanna Troi. CASEY: Jamil Zaki, right? ANDREA: Yeah, the Roddenberry effect. Jamil Zaki, out in Stanford, coined that. I think that's the thing; I've always been told I'm an empath, but I don't think it's telepathy. I think it's just I've gotten really good at spotting patterns and facial recognitions as opposed to Sky. He can just glance and go, “Oh, you're missing a semicolon here.” That is the same skill, it's just in a different context. CASEY: I love that parallel. JESSICA: Yeah. CASEY: Recognizing small things in facial expressions is like noticing missing semicolons. M: Mm hm. [laughs] CASEY: That's so powerful. That's so vivid for me. MANDO: Yeah. Going back, that made what something that you said earlier, Andrea really click for me, which is that so many people who are professional software developers have this very well-developed sense of empathy for the compiler. [laughs] ANDREA: Yeah. MANDO: Right, so it's not that they're not empathetic. ANDREA: Yes! MANDO: They have learned over their career to be extremely empathetic, it's just for their computer. In the same way, you can learn to be empathetic towards your other teams, towards your DevOps group, towards the salespeople, towards anybody. ANDREA: The flip side of your non-technical is you're not good with people because Scott got this all the time. He's like, “You're good with machines, but you're not good with people.” When he told me that, I was like, “I've known you since we were 11, you're incredibly kind. I don't understand.” So in some ways, my early journey here, I didn't come with all the baggage and so, there is this, like, this industry is weird. [laughs] How can we unpack some of this stuff? Because I don't know, this feels a little odd. That's an example and I think it's exactly that it's cultural conditioning and it's from this, “You're good with math, but we don't want you to be good with people.” If you're good with people, that's actually a liability. That was one of the things that came out of the testing of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s. MANDO: I can't wait till this book of yours comes out because I'm so curious to read the basis of all these myths that we have unconsciously been perpetuating for years and I don't know why, but there is this myth, there are these myths. Like, if you're technical, you're not good with people and you're not – you know what I mean? It's like, I can't wait to read it. ANDREA: You can go to empathyintech.com. You can sign up for the newsletter and we don't email very often. But Casey actually helps me run a Discord channel, too, or Discord server. So there's folks where we're having these conversations and it doesn't matter what your role is at all. MANDO: Yeah. ANDREA: Just let's start talking to each other. JESSICA: Andrea, that's beautiful. Thank you. That makes this a great time to move to reflections. At the end of each episode, we each get to do a reflection of something that stood out to us and you get to go last. ANDREA: Awesome. MANDO: I can go first. I've got one. The idea that empathy is being able to view and identify other perspectives is one that is something that I'm going to take away from this episode. I spent a lot of my career as a software developer and spent another good chunk of my career as someone who worked in operations and DevOps and admin kind of stuff. There's this historic and perpetual tug of war between the two and a lot of my career as a systems administrator was spent sitting down and trying to explain to software engineers why they couldn't do this, or why this GraphQL query was causing the database to explode for 4 hours every night and we couldn't live like that anymore. Stuff like that. To my shame, often, I would default to [laughs] this idea that these software engineers are just idiots and that wasn't the case at all. Well, probably [laughs] not the case at all. Almost always it wasn't the case at all. Anyway, but the truth of the situation is probably much closer to the idea that their perspective was tied specifically to the compiler and to the feature that they're trying to implement for their product manager, for customer X, or whatever. And they didn't have either the resources, or the experience, or the expertise, or whatever that was required to add on the perspective of the backend systems that they were interacting with. So maybe in the future, a better way to address these kinds of situations would be to talk about things in terms of perspective and not idiocy, I guess, is the… ANDREA: Yeah, a really powerful question there is what's your biggest pain point and how can I help you alleviate it? It's a really great way to learn what somebody's perspective is to get on the same page. MANDO: Yeah, like a lot. JESSICA: Nice. I noticed the part about how a lot of the help happens when you have empathy for the individuals who aren't on a happy path, who aren't the great majority of the people using the software, or the requests that come through your software. It's like that parable, there's a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray and the shepherd is going to leave the ninety-nine—who are fine, they're on the happy path, they're good—and go help the one. Because some other day, it's going to be another sheep that's off the happy path and that one's going to need help and that's about it. MANDO: Yeah. Today you, tomorrow me, right? That's how all this works. CASEY: The thing I'd been picking up is about feedback. Like, the best way to develop empathy for someone else is to get feedback, to get their perspective somehow. I've done retros at the ends of meetings, all the meetings at work I ever do. I even do them at the end of a Pomodoro session. A 25-minute timer in the middle of a pairing day, I'll do them every Pomodoro. “Anything to check in on? No? Good. Okay.” As long as we do. But I've never thought to do it during the interview process. That is surprising to me. MANDO: Yeah. CASEY: I don't know if I can get away with it everywhere. The government might not like it if I did that to their formal process. [laughter] Maybe I can get away with, but it's something I'll think about trying. I would like feedback and they would like feedback—win-win. MANDO: Yeah, I've never done it either and it makes perfect sense. I have a portion, unfortunately, in my interviews where I say right at the beginning, “This is what's going to happen in the interview,” and I spend 5 minutes going through and explaining, we're going to talk about this, we're going to talk about that, or just normal signposting for the interview. It never once has occurred to me to at the end, say, “Okay, this is what we did. Why don't you give me some feedback on that and I give you some feedback about you?” That makes sense. ANDREA: Awesome. For me, I have been wanting to come on your show for a really long time. I was telling Casey. [chuckles] JESSICA: Ah! ANDREA: I was like, “I love the mission of expanding the idea of what coding is.” So I just feel very honored because for the longest time, I was like, “I wonder if I'm going to be cool enough one day to –” [laughs] JESSICA: Ah! We should have invited you a long time ago. ANDREA: Yeah. So there's a little bit of fangirling going on and I really appreciate the opportunity to just dive a little bit deep, reflect, and think. As somebody who doesn't mold, it's nice to get validation sometimes that the way I'm thinking is valuable to some people. So it gives me motivation to keep going. JESSICA: Yeah. It's nice when you spend a lot of energy, trying to care about what other people care about, to know that other people also care about this thing that you care about. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: Thank you so much for joining us. ANDREA: Thank you for having me! MANDO: Thank you. ANDREA: The fastest way to reach out to me and make sure that I see it is actually to go to corgibytes.com. Corgi like the dog, bytes, B-Y-T-E-S, .com and send an email on the webform because then that way, it'll get pushed up to me. But I struggle with email a lot right now and I'm on Twitter sporadically and I'm also on – MANDO: That's good. The best way to do that. ANDREA: I am a longform writer. I'm actually really excited that I have a 100,000 words to explain myself. I do not operate well in the 140-character kind of world, but I'm on there and also, on LinkedIn. And then the book website is empathyintech.com and there's a link to the Discord channel and some deeper articles that I've written about exactly what empathy in tech is and what empathy driven development is. I'm writing it with my friend, Carmen Shirkey Collins, who is another copywriter who is now in tech over at Cisco, and it's been a joy to be on a journey with her because she's super smart and has great background in perspective, too. JESSICA: And if you want to work on meaningful, impactful legacy code in ensembles, check out Corgibytes. ANDREA: Yeah. JESSICA: And if you want to talk to all of us, you can join our Greater Than Code Slack by donating anything at all to our Greater Than Code Patreon at patreon.com/greaterthancode. Thank you, everyone and see you next time! Special Guest: Andrea Goulet.

Todd: OK. Jessica, we're back. We're gonna talk about your future. What do you want to be when you grow up?Jessica: Well, I want to be a physician's assistant.Todd: OK. What is a physician's assistant?Jessica: Well, normally when you go into the doctor's office, you wouldn't usually get-- well you would get your doctor all they do is check, give you check-ups or you know maybe take out stitches or something, not surgery.You just go in and do the little things. So the doctor does not have to do them.Todd: Oh, OK. So that is what you want to do?Jessica: Yeah.Todd: OK.Jessica: And make lots of money.Todd: You want to make lots of money?Jessica: OK. Nothing wrong with that.Todd: How do you become a physician's assistant. I can't even say it.Jessica: It's a lot of schooling. You have like six years, four or six years of college and you obviously take like nursing and other kinds of classes like that, and then you do like two or four years at like a hospital as a..Todd: Like an assistant, or..Jessica: Like you're actually doing the work.Todd: Oh, an intern.Jessica: An intern, yeah! An internship for two or four years at a hospital.Todd: Then, that's it. You finish.Jessica: And then you hopefully go on and maybe have your own little doctor's place and open that up or something.Todd: Well, best wishes on becoming a physician's assistant. I'm sure you'll make a good one.Jessica: Thank you.

02:13 - Michael’s Superpower: Being Able to Creatively Digest and Reconstruct Categories * Integral Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_theory_(Ken_Wilber)) * Creative Deconstruction – Michael Schwartz (https://ideas.repec.org/f/psc306.html) * Creating Truly Novel Categories – Recognizing Novelty as Novelty 09:39 - Recognizing Economic Value of Talents & Abilities * Invisible Labor * Ecosystem Services * Biodiversity; The Diversity Bonus by Scott Page (https://www.amazon.com/Diversity-Bonus-Knowledge-Compelling-Interests/dp/0691176884) 18:49 - The Edge of Chaos; Chaos Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory) * “Life exists at the edge of chaos.” 23:23 - Reproducibility Crisis and Context-Dependent Insight 28:49 - What constitutes a scientific experiment? * Missed Externalities * Scholarly articles for Michelle Girvan "reservoir computing" (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Michelle+Girvan+reservoir+computing&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart) * Non-conformity 38:03 - The Return of Civil Society and Community Relationships; Scale Theory * Legitimation Crisis by Juergen Habermas (https://www.amazon.com/Legitimation-Crisis-Juergen-Habermas/dp/0807015210) * Scale: The Universal Laws of Life and Death in Organisms, Cities and Companies by Geoffrey West (https://www.amazon.com/Scale-Universal-Organisms-Cities-Companies-ebook/dp/B010P7Z8J0) 49:28 - Fractal Geometry More amazing resources from Michael to check out: Michael Garfield: Improvising Out of Algorithmic Isolation (https://blog.usejournal.com/improvising-out-of-algorithmic-isolation-7ef1a5b94697?gi=e731ad1488b2) Michael Garfield: We Will Fight Diseases of Our Networks By Realizing We Are Networks (https://michaelgarfield.medium.com/we-will-fight-diseases-of-our-networks-by-realizing-we-are-networks-7fa1e1c24444) Reflections: Jacob: Some of the best ideas, tv shows, music, etc. are the kinds of things that there’s not going to be an established container. Rein: “Act always so as to increase the number of choices.” ~ Heinz von Foerster Jessica: Externality. Recognize that there’s going to be surprises and find them. Michael: Adaptability is efficiency aggregated over a longer timescale. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: JACOB: Hello and welcome to Episode 234 of Greater Than Code. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I’m joined with my co-panelist, Rein Henrichs. REIN: Thanks, Jacob and I’m here with my friend and co-panelist, Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Rein and today, I’m excited to introduce our guest, Michael Garfield. He’s an artist and philosopher and he helps people navigate our age of accelerating weirdness and cultivate the curiosity and play we need to thrive. He hosts and produces two podcasts, The Future Fossils Podcast & The Santa Fe Institute's Complexity Podcast. Yay, complexity! Michael acts as interlocutor for a worldwide community of artists, scientists, and philosophers—a practice that feeds his synthetic and transdisciplinary “mind-jazz” performances in the form of essay, avant-guitar music, and painting! You can find him on Bandcamp, it’s pretty cool. Refusing to be enslaved by a single perspective, creative medium, or intellectual community, Michael walks through the walls between academia and festival culture, theory and practice. Michael, welcome to Greater Than Code! MICHAEL: Thanks! I’m glad to be here and I hope that I provide a refreshingly different guest experience for listeners being not a coder in any kind of traditional sense. JESSICA: Yet you’re definitely involved in technology. MICHAEL: Yeah, and I think the epistemic framing of programming and algorithms is something that can be applied with no understanding of programming languages as they are currently widely understood. It’s just like design is coding, design of the built environment, so. JESSICA: And coding is a design. MICHAEL: Indeed. JESSICA: Okay, before we go anywhere else, I did not prepare you for this, but we have one question that we ask all of our guests. What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? MICHAEL: I would like believe that I have a superpower in being able to creatively digest and reconstruct categories so as to drive new associations between them for people and I feel like I developed that studying integral theory in grad school. I did some work under Sean Esbjörn-Hargens at John F. Kennedy University looking at the work of and work adjacent to Ken Wilber, who was trying to come up with a metatheoretical framework to integrate all different domains of human knowledge. All different types of inquiry into a single framework that doesn't attempt to reduce any one of them to any other and then in that process, I learned what one of my professors, Michael Schwartz, called creative deconstruction. So showing how art can be science and science can be art and that these aren't ontologically fixed categories that exist external to us. Looking at the relationship between science as a practice and spiritual inquiry as a practice and that kind of thing. So it's an irreverent attitude toward the categories that we've constructed that takes in a way a cynical and pragmatic approach to the way that we define things in our world. You know. REIN: Kant was wrong. [laughs] MICHAEL: It's good to get out of the rut. Obviously, you’ve got to be careful because all of these ideas have histories and so you have to decide whether it's worth trying to redefine something for people in order to open up new possibilities in the way that these ideas can be understood and manipulated. It's not, for example, an easy task to try and get people to change their idea about what religion is. [laughs] JESSICA: Yeah. More than redefined. It's almost like undefined. MICHAEL: Hm. Like Paul Tillich, for example. Theologian Paul Tillich said that religion is ultimate concern. So someone can have a religion of money, or a religion of sex, but if you get into these, if you try to interpose that in a debate on intelligent design versus evolutionary theory, you'll get attacked by both sides. JESSICA: [chuckles] That’s cosmology. MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's like – [overtalk] JESSICA: Which is hard to [inaudible] of money, or sex. MICHAEL: Yeah, but people do it anyhow. JESSICA: [laughs] Yeah. So deconstructing categories and seeing in-between things that fits through your walking through walls, what categories are you deconstructing and seeing between lately? MICHAEL: Well, I don't know, lately I've been paying more attention to the not so much tilting after the windmills of this metamorphic attitude towards categories, but looking at the way that when the opportunity comes to create a truly novel category, what are the forces in play that prevent that, that prevent recognizing novelty as novelty that I just – JESSICA: Do you have any examples? MICHAEL: Yeah, well, I just saw a really excellent talk by UC Berkeley Professor Doug Guilbeault, I think is how you say his name. I am happy to link his work to you all in the chat here so that you can share it. JESSICA: Yeah, we’ll link that in the show notes. MICHAEL: He studies category formation and he was explaining how most of the research that's been done on convergent categorization is done on established categories. But what happens when you discover something truly new? What his research shows is that basically the larger the population, the more likely it is that these categories will converge on something that's an existing category and he compared it to island versus mainland population biogeography. So there's a known dynamic in evolutionary science where genetic drift, which is just this random component of the change in allele frequencies in a population, the larger the population, the less likely it is that a genetic mutation that is otherwise neutral is going to actually percolate out into the population. On an island, you might get these otherwise neutral mutations that actually take root and saturate an entire community, but on the mainland, they get lost in the noise. You can look at this in terms of how easy it is for an innovative, artistic, or musical act to actually find any purchase. Like Spotify bought the data analysis company, The Echo Nest, back in 2015 and they ran this study on where emergent musical talent comes from. It comes from places like Australia, the UK, and Iceland, because the networks are small enough. This is a finding that's repeated endlessly through studies of how to create a viral meme that basically, or another way – JESSICA: You mean a small enough pool to take hold? MICHAEL: Yeah. That basically big science and large social networks online and these other attempts, anywhere we look at this economies of scale, growing a given system, what happens is—and we were talking about this a little before we got on the call—as a system scales, it becomes less innovative. There's less energy is allocated to – JESSICA: In America? MICHAEL: Yeah. Bureaucratic overhead, latencies in the network that prevent the large networks from adapting, with the same agility to novel challenges. There's a lot of different ways to think about this and talk about this, but it basically amounts to, if you want to, you can't do it from the conservative core of an organization. You can't do it from the board of directors. JESSICA: Oh. MICHAEL: You have to go out onto – like why did they call it fringe physics? It's like, it is because it's on the fringe and so there's a kind of – JESSICA: So this would be like if you have like one remarkably lowercase agile team inside your enterprise, one team is innovating and development practices. They're going to get mushed out. Whereas, if you have one team innovating like that in a small company, it might spread and it might become dominant. MICHAEL: Yeah. I think it's certainly the case that this speaks to something I've been wondering about it in a broader sense, which is how do we recognize the economic value of talents and abilities that are like, how do we recognize a singular individual for their incompressible knowledge and expertise when they don't go through established systems of accreditation like getting a PhD? Because the academic system is such that basically, if you have an innovative contribution, but you don't have the credentials that are required to participate in the community of peer review, then people can't even – your contribution is just invisible. The same is true for how long it took, if you look at economic models, it took so long for economic models to even begin to start addressing the invisible labor of women in at home like domestic labor, or what we're now calling ecosystem services. So there's this question of – I should add that I'm ambivalent about this question because I'm afraid that answering it in an effective way, how do we make all of these things economically visible would just accelerate the rate at which the capitalist machine is capable of co-opting and exploiting all of these. [chuckles] REIN: Yeah. You also have this Scott Seeing Like a State thing where in order to be able to even perceive that that stuff is going on, it has to become standardized and you can't dissect the bird to observe its song, right? MICHAEL: Totally. So obviously, it took almost no time at all for consumer culture to commodify the psychedelic experience and start using to co-opt this psychedelic aesthetic and start using it in advertising campaigns for Levi's Jeans and Campbell Soup and that kind of thing. So it’s this question of a moving frontier that as soon as you have the language to talk about it, it's not the ineffable anymore. REIN: Yeah. MICHAEL: There's a value to the ineffable and there's a value to – it's related to this question of the exploitation of indigenous peoples by large pharmaceutical companies like, their ethnobotanical knowledge. How do you make the potential value of biodiversity, something that can be manufactured into medicine at scale, without destroying the rainforest and the people who live in it? Everywhere I look, I see this question. So for me, lately, it's been less about how do we creatively deconstruct the categories we have so much as it is, what is the utility of not knowing how to categorize something at all and then how do we fix the skewed incentive structures in society so as to value that which we currently do not know how to value. JESSICA: Because you don’t have a category for it. MICHAEL: Right. Like right now, maybe one of the best examples, even though this is the worst example in another way, is that a large fraction of the human genome has been patented by Monsanto, even though it has no known current biomedical utility. This is what Lewis Hyde in his book, Common as Air, called “the third enclosure” of the common. So you have the enclosure of the land that everyone used to be able to hunt on and then you have the enclosure of intellectual property in terms of patents for known utilities, known applications, and then over the last few decades, you're starting to see large companies buy their way into and defend patents for the things that actually don't – it's speculative. They're just gambling on the idea that eventually we'll have some use for this and that it's worth lawyering up to defend that potential future use. But it's akin to recognizing that we need to fund translational work. We need to fund synthesis. We need to fund blue sky interdisciplinary research for which we don't have an expected return on investment here because there's – JESSICA: It's one of those things that it’s going to help; you're going to get tremendous benefits out of it, but you can't say which ones. MICHAEL: Right. It's a shift perhaps akin to the move that I'm seeing conservation biology make right now from “let's preserve this charismatic species” to “let's do everything we can to restore biodiversity” rather than that biodiversity itself is generative and should be valued in its own regard so diverse research teams, diverse workplace teams. We know that there is what University of Michigan Professor Scott Page calls the diversity bonus and you don't need to know and in fact, you cannot know what the bonus is upfront. JESSICA: Yeah. You can't draw the line of causality forward to the benefit because the point of diversity is that you get benefits you never thought of. MICHAEL: Exactly. Again, this gets into this question of as a science communications staffer in a position where I'm constantly in this weird dissonant enters zone between the elite researchers at the Santa Fe Institute where I work and the community of complex systems enthusiasts that have grown up around this organization. It's a complete mismatch in scale between this org that has basically insulated itself so as to preserve the island of innovation that is required for really groundbreaking research, but then also, they have this reputation that far outstrips their ability to actually respond to people that are one step further out on the fringe from them. So I find myself asking, historically SFI was founded by Los Alamos National Laboratory physicists mostly that were disenchanted with the idea that they were going to have to research science, that their science was limited to that which could be basically argued as a national defense initiative and they just wanted to think about the deepest mysteries of the cosmos. So what is to SFI as SFI as to Los Alamos? Even in really radical organizations, there's a point at which they've matured and there are questions that are beyond the horizon of that which a particular community is willing to indulge. I find, in general, I'm really fascinated by questions about the nonlinearity of time, or about weird ontology. I'm currently talking to about a dozen other academics and para-academics about how to try and – I'm working, or helping to organize a working group of people that can apply rigorous academic approaches to asking questions that are completely taboo inside of academia. Questions that challenge some of the most fundamental assumptions of maternity, such as there being a distinction between self and other, or the idea that there are things that are fundamentally inaccessible to quantitative research. These kinds of things like, how do we make space for that kind of inquiry when there's absolutely no way to argue it in terms of you should fund this? And that's not just for money, that's also for attention because the demands on the time and attention of academics are so intense that even if they have interest in this stuff, they don't have the freedom to pursue it in their careers. That's just one of many areas where I find that this kind of line of inquiry manifesting right now. REIN: Reminds me a lot of this model of the edge of chaos that came from Packard and Langton back in the late 70s. Came out of chaos theory, this idea that there's this liminal transitionary zone between stability and chaos and that this is the boiling zone where self-organization happens and innovation happens. But also, that this zone is itself not static; it gets pushed around by other forces. MICHAEL: Yeah, and that's where life is and that was Langton's point, that life exists at the edge of chaos that it's right there at the phase transition boundary between what is it that separates a stone from a raging bonfire, or there’s the Goldilocks Zone kind of question. Yeah, totally. REIN: And these places that were at the edge of chaos that were innovative can ossify, they can move into the zone of stability. It's not so much that they move it's that, I don't know, maybe it's both. Where the frontier is, is constantly in motion. MICHAEL: Yeah, and to that point again, I tend to think about these things in a topographical, or geographical sense, where the island is growing, we're sitting on a volcano, and there's lots you can do with that metaphor. Obviously, it doesn't make sense. You can't build your house inside the volcano, right? [laughs] But you want to be close enough to be able to watch and describe as new land erupts, but at a safe distance. Where is that sweet spot where you have rigor and you have support, but you're not trapped within a bureaucracy, or an ossified set of institutional conventions? JESSICA: Or if the island is going up, if the earth is moving the island up until the coastline keeps expanding outward, and you built your house right on the beach. As in you’ve got into React when it was the new hotness and you learned all about it and you became the expert and then you had this great house on the beach, and now you have a great house in the middle of town because the frontier, the hotness has moved on as our massive technology has increased and the island raises up. I mean, you can't both identify as being on the edge and identify with any single category of knowledge. MICHAEL: Yeah. It's tricky. I saw Nora Bateson talking about this on Twitter recently. She's someone who I love for her subversiveness. Her father, Gregory Bateson, was a major player in the articulation of cybernetics and she's awesome in that sense of, I don't know, the minister's daughter kind of a way of being extremely well-versed in complex systems thinking and yet also aware that there's a subtle reductionism that comes in that misses – JESSICA: Misses from? MICHAEL: Well, that comes at like we think about systems thinking as it's not reductionist because it's not trying to explain biology in terms of the interactions of atoms. It acknowledges that there's genuine emergence that happens at each of these levels and yet, to articulate that, one of the things that happens is everything has to be squashed into numbers and so it’s like this issue of how do you quantify something. JESSICA: It's not real, if you can't measure it in numbers. MICHAEL: Right and that belies this bias towards thinking that because you can't quantify something now means it can't be quantified. JESSICA: You can’t predict which way the flame is going to go in the fire. That doesn't mean the fire doesn't burn. [chuckles] MICHAEL: Right. So she's interesting because she talks about warm data as this terrain, or this experience where we don't know how to talk about it yet, but that's actually what makes it so juicy and meaningful and instructive and – JESSICA: As opposed to taking it out of context. Leave it in context, even though we don't know how to do some magical analysis on it there. MICHAEL: Right, and I think this starts to generate some meaningful insights into the problem of the reproducibility crisis. Just as an example, I think science is generally moving towards context dependent insight and away from – even at the Santa Fe Institute, nobody's looking for a single unifying theory of everything anymore. It's far more illuminating, useful, and rigorous to look at how different models are practical given different applications. I remember in college there's half a dozen major different ways to define a biological species and I was supposed to get up in front of a class and argue for one over the other five. I was like, “This is preposterous.” Concretely, pun kind of intended, Biosphere 2, which was this project that I know the folks here at Synergia Ranch in Santa Fe at the Institute of Ecotechnics, who were responsible for creating this unbelievable historic effort to miniaturize the entire biosphere inside of a building. They had a coral reef and a rainforest and a Savannah and a cloud desert, like the Atacama, and there was one other, I forget. But it was intended as a kind of open-ended ecological experiment that was supposed to iterate a 100 times, or 50 times over a 100 years. They didn't know what they were looking for; they just wanted to gather data and then continue these 2-year enclosures where a team of people were living inside this building and trying to reproduce the entire earth biosphere in miniature. So that first enclosure is remembered historically as a failure because they miscalculated the rate at which they would be producing carbon dioxide and they ended up having to open the building and let in fresh air and import resource. JESSICA: So they learned something? MICHAEL: Right, they learned something. But that project was funded by Ed Bass, who in 1994, I think called in hostile corporate takeover expert, Steve Bannon to force to go in there with a federal team and basically issue a restraining order on these people and forcibly evict them from the experiment that they had created. Because it was seen as an embarrassment, because they had been spun in this way in international media as being uncredentialed artists, rather than scientists who really should not have the keys to this thing. It was one of these instances where people regard this as a scientific failure and yet when you look at the way so much of science is being practiced now, be it in the domains of complex systems, or in machine learning, what they were doing was easily like 20 or 30 years ahead of its time. JESSICA: Well, no wonder they didn’t appreciate it. MICHAEL: [chuckles] Exactly. So it's like, they went in not knowing what they were going to get out of it, but there was this tragic mismatch between the logic of Ed Bass’ billionaire family about what it means to have a return on an investment and the logic of ecological engineering where you're just poking at a system to see what will happen and you don't even know where to set the controls yet. So anyway. JESSICA: And it got too big. You talked about the media, it got too widely disseminated and became embarrassed because it wasn't on an island. It wasn't in a place where the genetic drift can become normal. MICHAEL: Right. It was suddenly subject to the constraints imposed upon it in terms of the way that people were being taught science in public school in the 1980s that this is what the scientific method is. You start with a hypothesis and it's like what if your – JESSICA: Which are not standards that are relevant to that situation. MICHAEL: Exactly. And honestly, the same thing applies to other computational forms of science. It took a long time for the techniques pioneered at the Santa Fe Institute to be regarded as legitimate. I'm thinking of cellular automata, agent-based modeling, and computer simulation generally. Steven Wolfram did a huge service, in some sense, to the normalization of those things in publishing A New Kind of Science, that massive book in whatever it was, 2004, or something where he said, “Look, we can run algorithmic experiments,” and that's different from the science that you're familiar with, but it's also setting aside for a moment, the attribution failure that that book is and acknowledging who actually pioneered A New Kind of Science. [chuckles] JESSICA: At least it got some information out. MICHAEL: Right. At least it managed to shift the goalpost in terms of what the expectations are; what constitutes a scientific experiment in the first place. JESSICA: So it shifted categories. MICHAEL: Yeah. So I think about, for example, a research that was done on plant growth in a basement. I forget who it was that did this. I think I heard this from, it was either Doug Rushkoff, or Charles Eisenstein that was talking about this, where you got two completely different results and they couldn't figure out what was going on. And then they realized that it was at different moments in the lunar cycle and that it didn't matter if you put your plant experiment in a basement and lit everything with artificial bulbs and all this stuff. Rather than sunlight, rather than clean air, if you could control for everything, but that there's always a context outside of your context. So this notion that no matter how cleverly you try to frame your model, that when it comes time to actually experiment on these things in the real world, that there's always going to be some extra analogy you've missed and that this has real serious and grave implications in terms of our economic models, because there will always be someone that's falling through the cracks. How do we actually account for all of the stakeholders in conversations about the ecological cost of dropping a new factory over here, for example? It's only recently that people, anywhere in the modern world, are starting to think about granting ecosystems legal protections as entities befitting of personhood and this kind of thing. JESSICA: Haven’t we copyrighted those yet? MICHAEL: [laughs] So all of that, there's plenty of places to go from there, I'm sure. REIN: Well, this does remind me of one of the things that Stafford Beer tried was he said, “Ponds are viable systems, they’re ecologies, they're adaptive, they're self-sustaining. Instead of trying to model how a pond works, what if we just hook the inputs of the business process into the pond and then hook the adaptions made by the pond as the output back into the business process and use the pond as the controlling system without trying to understand what makes a pond good at adapting?” That is so outside of the box and it blows my mind that he was doing this, well, I guess it was the 60s, or whatever, but this goes well beyond black boxing, right? MICHAEL: Yeah. So there's kind of a related insight that I saw Michelle Girvan gave at Santa Fe Institute community lecture a few years ago on reservoir computing, which maybe most of your audience is familiar with, but just for the sake of it, this is joining a machine learning system to a source of analog chaos, basically. So putting a computer on a bucket of water and then just kicking the bucket, every once in a while, to generate waves so that you're feeding chaos into the output of the machine learning algorithm to prevent overfitting. Again, and again, and again, you see this value where this is apparently the evolutionary value of play and possibly also, of dreaming. There's a lot of good research on both of these areas right now that learning systems are all basically hill climbing algorithms that need to be periodically disrupted from climbing the wrong local optimum. So in reservoir computing, by adding a source of natural chaos to their weather prediction algorithms, they were able to double the horizon at which they were able to forecast meteorological events past the mathematic limit that had been proven and established for this. That is like, we live in a noisy world. JESSICA: Oh, yeah. Just because it’s provably impossible doesn't mean we can't do something that's effectively the same thing, that's close enough. MICHAEL: Right. Actually, in that example, I think that there's a strong argument for the value of that which we can't understand. [laughs] It's like it's actually important. So much has been written about the value of Slack, of dreaming, of taking a long walk, of daydreaming, letting your mind wander to scientific discovery. So this is where great innovations come from is like, “I'm going to sleep on it,” or “I'm going to go on vacation.” Just getting stuck on an idea, getting fixated on a problem, we actually tend to foreclose on the possibility of answering that problem entirely. Actually, there's a good reason to – I think this is why Silicon Valley has recognized the instrumental value of microdosing, incidentally. [laughs] That this is that you actually want to inject a little noise into your algorithm and knock yourself off the false peak that you've stranded yourself on. JESSICA: Because if you aim for predictability and consistency, if you insist on reasonableness, you'll miss everything interesting. MICHAEL: Or another good way to put it is what is it, reasonable women don't make history. [laughs] There is actually a place for the – JESSICA: You don’t change the system by maximally conforming. MICHAEL: Right. JESSICA: If there is a place for… MICHAEL: It’s just, there is a place for non-conformity and it's a thing where it's like, I really hope and I have some optimism that what we'll see, by the time my daughter is old enough to join the workforce, is that we'll see a move in this direction where non-conformity has been integrated somehow into our understanding of how to run a business that we actively seek out people that are capable of doing this. For the same reason that we saw over the 20th century, we saw a movement from one size fits all manufacturing to design your own Nike shoes. There's this much more bespoke approach. JESSICA: Oh, I love those. MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's like we know that if we can tailor our systems so that they can adapt across multiple different scales, that they're not exploiting economies of scale that ultimately slash the redundancy that allows an organization to adapt to risk. That if we can find a way to actually generate a kind of a fractal structure in the governance of organizations in the way that we have reflexes. The body already does this, you don't have to sit there and think about everything you do and if you did, you’d die right away. JESSICA: [laughs] Yeah. REIN: Yeah. MICHAEL: If you had to pass every single twitch all the way up the chain to your frontal cortex JESSICA: If we had to put breathe on the list. [laughs] MICHAEL: Right. If you had to sit there and approve every single heartbeat, you'd be so dead. [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh my gosh, yeah. That's an energy allocation and it all needs to go through you so that you can have control. REIN: I just wanted to mention, that reminded me of a thing that Klaus Krippendorff, who's a cybernetics guy, said that there is virtue in the act of delegating one's agency to trustworthy systems. We're talking, but I don't need to care about how the packets get from my machine to yours and I don't want to care about that, but there's a trade-off here where people find that when they surrender their agency, that this can be oppressive. So how do we find this trade-off? MICHAEL: So just to anchor it again in something that I find really helpful. Thinking about the way that convenience draws people into these compacts, with the market and with the state. You look over the last several hundred years, or thousand years in the West and you see more and more of what used to be taken for granted as the extent in terms of the functions that are performed by the extended family, or by the neighborhood, life in a city, by your church congregations, or whatever. All of that stuff has been out boarded to commercial interests and to federal level oversight, because it's just more efficient to do it that way at the timescales that matter, that are visible to those systems. Yet, what COVID has shown us is that we actually need neighborhoods that suddenly, it doesn't – my wife and I, it was easy to make the decision to move across country to a place where we didn't know anybody to take a good job. But then suddenly when you're just alone in your house all the time and you've got nobody to help you raise your kids, that seems extremely dumb. So there's that question of just as I feel like modern science is coming back around to acknowledging that a lot of what was captured in old wives’ tales and in traditional indigenous knowledge, ecological knowledge systems that were regarded by the enlightenment as just rumor, or… JESSICA: Superstition. MICHAEL: Superstition, that it turns out that these things actually had, that they had merit, they were evolved. JESSICA: There was [inaudible] enough. MICHAEL: Right. Again, it wasn't rendered in the language that allowed it to be the subject of quantitative research until very recently and then, suddenly it was and suddenly, we had to circle back around. Science is basically in this position where they have to sort of canonize Galileo, they're like, “Ah, crap. We burned all these witches, but it turns out they were right.” There's that piece of it. So I think relatedly, one of the things that we're seeing in economist samples and Wendy Carlin have written about this is the return of the civil society, the return of mutual aid networks, and of gift economies, and of the extended family, and of buildings that are built around in courtyards rather than this Jeffersonian everyone on their own plot of land approach. That we're starting to realize that we had completely emptied out the topsoil basically of all of these community relationships in order to standardize things for a mass big agricultural approach, that on the short scale actually does generate greater yield. It's easier to have conversations with people who agree with you than it is – in a way, it's inexpedient to try and cross the aisle and have a conversation with someone with whom you deeply and profoundly disagree. But the more polarized we become as a civilization, the more unstable we become as a civilization. So over this larger timescale, we actually have to find ways to incentivize talking to people with whom you disagree, or we're screwed. We're kicking legs out from under the table. REIN: At this point, I have to name drop Habermas because he had this idea that there were two fundamental cognitive interests that humans have to direct their attempts to acquire knowledge. One is a technical interest in achieving goals through prediction and control and the other is a practical interest in ensuring mutual understanding. His analysis was that advanced capitalist societies, the technical interest dominates at the expense of the practical interest and that knowledge produced by empirical, scientific, analytic sciences becomes the prototype of all knowledge. I think that's what you're talking about here that we've lost touch with this other form of knowledge. It's not seen as valuable and the scientific method, the analytical approaches have come to dominate. MICHAEL: Yeah, precisely. [laughs] Again, I think in general, we've become impoverished in our imagination because again, the expectations, there's a shifting baseline. So what people expect to pull out of the ocean now is a fish that you might catch off just a commercial, or a recreational fishing expedition. It's a quarter of the size of the same species of fish you might've caught 50, 70 years ago and when people pull up this thing and they're like, “Oh, look at –” and they feel proud of themselves. I feel like that's what's going on with us in terms of our we no longer even recognize, or didn't until very recently recognize that we had been unwittingly colluding in the erosion of some very essential levels of organization and human society and that we had basically sold our souls to market efficiency and efficient state level governance. Now it's a huge mess to try and understand. You look at Occupy Wall Street and stuff like that and it just seems like such an enormous pain in the ass to try and process things in that way. But it's because we're having to relearn how to govern neighborhoods and govern small communities and make business decisions at the scale of a bioregion rather than a nation. JESSICA: Yeah. It's a scale thing. I love the phrase topsoil of community relationships, because when you talk about the purposive knowledge that whatever you call it, Rein, that is goal seeking. It's like the one tall tree that is like, “I am the tallest tree,” and it keeps growing taller and taller and taller, and it doesn't see that it's falling over because there's no trees next to it to protect it from the wind. It's that weaving together between all the trees and the different knowledge and the different people, our soul is there. Our resilience is there. REIN: Michael, you keep talking about scale. Are you talking about scale theory? MICHAEL: Yeah. Scaling laws, like Geoffrey West's stuff, Luis Bettencourt is another researcher at the University of Chicago who does really excellent work in urban scaling. I just saw a talk from him this morning that was really quite interesting about there being a sweet spot where a city can exist between how thinly it's distributed infrastructurally over a given area versus how congested it is. Because population and infrastructure scale differently, they scale at different rates than you get – REIN: If I remember my West correctly, just because I suspect that not all of our listeners are familiar with scale theory, there's this idea that there are certain things that grow super linearly as things scale and certain things that grow sub linearly. So for example, the larger a city gets, you get a 15% more restaurants, but you also get 15% more flu, but you also get 15% less traffic. MICHAEL: Yeah. So anything that depends on infrastructures scales sub linearly. A city of 2 million people has 185% the number of gas stations, but anything that scales anything having to do with the number of interactions between people scales super linearly. You get 115% of the – rather you get, what is it, 230%? Something like that. Anyway, it's 150%, it's 85% up versus 115% up. So patents, but also crime and also, just the general pace of life scale at 115% per capita. So like, disease transmission. So you get into these weird cases—and this links back to what we were talking about earlier—where people move into the city, because it's per unit. In a given day, you have so much more choice, you have so much more opportunity than you would in your agrarian Chinese community and that's why Shenzhen is basically two generations old. 20 million people and none of them have grandparents living in Shenzhen because they're all attracted to this thing. But at scale, what that means is that everyone is converging on the same answer. Everyone's moving into Shenzhen and away from their farming community. So you end up – in a way, it's not that that world is any more innovative. It's just, again, easier to capture that innovation and therefore, measure it. But then back to what we were saying about convergent categories and biogeography, it's like if somebody comes up with a brilliant idea in the farm, you're not necessarily going to see it. But if somebody comes up with the same brilliant idea in the city, you might also not see it for different reasons. So anyway, I'm in kind of a ramble, but. JESSICA: The optimal scale for innovation is not the individual and it's not 22 million, it's in between. MICHAEL: Well, I feel like at the level of a city, you're no longer talking about individuals almost in a way. At that point, you're talking about firms. A city is like a rainforest in which the fauna are companies. Whereas, a neighborhood as an ecosystem in which the fauna, or individual people and so, to equate one with the other is a potential point of confusion. Maybe an easier way to think about this would be multicellular life. My brain is capable of making all kinds of innovations that any cell, or organ in my body could not make on its own. There's a difference there. [overtalk] JESSICA: [inaudible]. MICHAEL: Right. It's easier, however, for a cell to mutate if it doesn't live inside of me. Because if it does, it's the cancer – [overtalk] JESSICA: The immune system will come attack it. MICHAEL: Right. My body will come and regulate that. JESSICA: Like, “You’re different, you are right out.” MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's not about innovation as some sort of whole category, again, it's about different kinds of innovation that are made that are emergent at different levels of organization. It's just the question of what kinds of innovation are made possible when you have something like the large Hadron Collider versus when you've got five people in a room around a pizza. You want to find the appropriate scale for the entity, for the system that's the actual level of granularity at which you're trying to look at the stuff, so. REIN: Can I try to put a few things together here in potentially a new way and see if it's anything? So we talked about the edge of chaos earlier and we're talking about scale theory now, and in both, there's this idea of fractal geometry. This idea that a coastline gets larger, the smaller your ruler is. In scale theory, there's this idea of space filling that you have to fill the space with things like capillaries, or roads and so on. But in the human lung, for example, if you unfurled all of the surface area, you'd fill up like a football field, I think. So maybe there's this idea that there's complexity that's possible, that’s made possible by the fractal shape of this liminal region that the edge of chaos. MICHAEL: Yeah. It's certainly, I think as basically what it is in maximizing surface area, like you do within a lung, then you're maximizing exposure. So if the scientific community were operating on the insights that it has generated in a deliberate way, then you would try to find a way to actually incorporate the fringe physics community. There's got to be a way to use that as the reservoir of chaos, rather than trying to shut that chaos out of your hill climbing algorithm and then at that point, it's just like, where's the threshold? How much can you invite before it becomes a distraction from getting anything done? When it's too noisy to be coherent. Arguably, what the internet has done for humankind has thrown it in completely the opposite direction where we've optimized entirely for surface area instead of for coherence. So now we have like, no two people seem to be able to agree on reality anymore. That's not useful either. REIN: Maybe there's also a connectivity thing here where if I want to get from one side of the city to the other, there are 50 different routes. But if I want to get from one city to another, there's a highway that does it. MICHAEL: Yeah, totally. So it's just a matter of rather than thinking about what allows for the most efficient decisions, in some sense, at one given timescale, it's how can we design hierarchical information, aggregation structures so as to create a wise balance between the demands on efficiency that are held at and maintained at different scales. SFI researcher, Jessica Flack talks about this in her work on collective computation and primate hierarchies where it’s a weird, awkward thing, but basically, there is an evolutionary argument for police, that it turns out that having a police system is preventing violence. This is mathematically demonstrable, but you also have to make sure that there's enough agency at the individual level, in the system that the police aren't in charge of everything going on. It's not just complex, it's complicated. [laughs] We've thrown out a ton of stuff on this call. I don't know, maybe this is just whetting people's appetite for something a little bit more focused and concise. JESSICA: This episode is going to have some extensive show notes. MICHAEL: Yeah. [chuckles] JESSICA: It's definitely time to move into reflections. JACOB: You were talking, at the very beginning, about Spotify. Like how, when unknown ideas are able to find their tribe and germinate. I was reading about how Netflix does business and it's very common for them to make some new content and then see how it goes for 30 days and then just kill it. Because they say, “Well, this isn't taking off. We're not going to make more of it,” and a lot of people can get really upset with that. There's definitely been some really great things out on Netflix that I'm like, for one on the one hand, “Why are you canceling this? I really wanted more,” and it seems like there's a lot of the people that do, too. What that's making me think about as well for one thing, I think it seems like Netflix from my experience, is not actually marketing some of their best stuff. You would never know it’s there, just in the way of people to find more unknown things. But also, I'm thinking about how just generally speaking some of the best ideas, TV shows, music, whatever are the kinds of things that there's not going to be an established container, group of people, that you can say, “We want to find white men ages 25 to 35 and we're going to dump it on their home screen because if anyone's going to like it, it's them and if they do, then we keep it and if they don't move, we don't.” I feel like the best things are we don't actually know who those groups are going to be and it's going to have a weird constellation of people that I couldn't actually classify. So I was just thinking about how that's an interesting challenge. JESSICA: Sweet. Rein, you have a thing? REIN: Yeah. I have another thing. I was just reminded of von Foerster, who was one of the founders of Second-order cybernetics. He has an ethical imperative, which is act always so as to increase the number of choices. I think about this actually a lot in my day-to-day work about maximizing the option value that I carry with me as I'm doing my work, like deferring certain decisions and so on. But I think it also makes sense in our discussion as well. JESSICA: True. Mine is about externalities. We talked about how, whatever you do, whatever your business does, whatever your technology does, there's always going to be effects on the world on the context and the context of the context that you couldn't predict. That doesn't mean don't do anything. It doesn't mean look for those. Recognize that there's going to be surprises and try to find them. It reminds me of sometimes, I think in interviewing, we’re like, “There are cognitive biases so in order to be fair, we must not use human judgment!” [laughter] Which is not helpful. I mean, yes, there are cognitive biases so look for them and try to compensate. Don't try to use only something predictable, like an algorithm. That's not helpful. That's it. MICHAEL: Yeah. Just to speak to a little bit of what each of you have said, I think for me, one of the key takeaways here is that if you're optimizing for future opportunity, if you're trying to—and I think I saw MIT defined intelligence in this way, that AI could be measured in terms of its ability to – AGI rather could be measured in terms of its ability to increase the number of games steps available to it, or options available to it in the next step of an unfolding puzzle, or whatever. Superhuman AGI is going to break out of any kind of jail we try to put it in just because it's doing better at this. But the thing is that that's useless if we take it in terms of one spaciotemporal scale. Evolutionary dynamics have found a way to do this in a rainforest that optimizes biodiversity and the richness of feeding relationships in a food web without this short-sighted quarterly return maximizing type of approach. So the question is are you trying to create more opportunities for yourself right now? Are you trying to create more opportunities for your kids, or are you trying to transcend the rivalrous dynamics? You've set yourself up for intergenerational warfare if you pick only one of those. The tension between feed yourself versus feed your kids is resolved in a number of different ways in different species that have different – yeah. It is exactly, Rein in the chat you said, it reminds you of the trade-off between efficiency and adaptability and it's like, arguably, adaptability is efficiency aggregated when you're looking at it over a longer timescale, because you don't want to have to rebuild civilization from scratch. So [chuckles] I think it's just important to add the dimension of time and to consider that this is something that's going on at multiple different levels of organization at the same time and that's a hugely important to how we actually think about these topics. JESSICA: Thinking of scales of time, you’ve thought about these interesting topics for an hour, or so now and I hope you'll continue thinking about them over weeks and consult the show notes. Michael, how can people find out more about you? MICHAEL: I'm on Twitter and Instagram if people prefer diving in social media first, I don't recommend it. I would prefer you go to patreon.com/michaelgarfield and find future fossils podcasts there. I have a lot of other stuff I do, the music and the art and everything feeds into everything else. So because I'm a parent and because I don't want all of my income coming from my day job, I guess Patreon is where I suggest people go first. [laughs] Thank you. JESSICA: Thank you. And of course, to support the podcast, you can also go to patrion.com/greaterthancode. If you donate even a dollar, you can join our Slack channel and join the conversation. It'll be fun. Special Guest: Michael Garfield.

Todd: OK. Jessica, we're back. We're gonna talk about your future. What do you want to be when you grow up?Jessica: Well, I want to be a physician's assistant.Todd: OK. What is a physician's assistant?Jessica: Well, normally when you go into the doctor's office, you wouldn't usually get-- well you would get your doctor all they do is check, give you check-ups or you know maybe take out stitches or something, not surgery.You just go in and do the little things. So the doctor does not have to do them.Todd: Oh, OK. So that is what you want to do?Jessica: Yeah.Todd: OK.Jessica: And make lots of money.Todd: You want to make lots of money?Jessica: OK. Nothing wrong with that.Todd: How do you become a physician's assistant. I can't even say it.Jessica: It's a lot of schooling. You have like six years, four or six years of college and you obviously take like nursing and other kinds of classes like that, and then you do like two or four years at like a hospital as a..Todd: Like an assistant, or..Jessica: Like you're actually doing the work.Todd: Oh, an intern.Jessica: An intern, yeah! An internship for two or four years at a hospital.Todd: Then, that's it. You finish.Jessica: And then you hopefully go on and maybe have your own little doctor's place and open that up or something.Todd: Well, best wishes on becoming a physician's assistant. I'm sure you'll make a good one.Jessica: Thank you.

Todd: OK. Jessica, we're back. We're gonna talk about your future. What do you want to be when you grow up?Jessica: Well, I want to be a physician's assistant.Todd: OK. What is a physician's assistant?Jessica: Well, normally when you go into the doctor's office, you wouldn't usually get-- well you would get your doctor all they do is check, give you check-ups or you know maybe take out stitches or something, not surgery.You just go in and do the little things. So the doctor does not have to do them.Todd: Oh, OK. So that is what you want to do?Jessica: Yeah.Todd: OK.Jessica: And make lots of money.Todd: You want to make lots of money?Jessica: OK. Nothing wrong with that.Todd: How do you become a physician's assistant. I can't even say it.Jessica: It's a lot of schooling. You have like six years, four or six years of college and you obviously take like nursing and other kinds of classes like that, and then you do like two or four years at like a hospital as a..Todd: Like an assistant, or..Jessica: Like you're actually doing the work.Todd: Oh, an intern.Jessica: An intern, yeah! An internship for two or four years at a hospital.Todd: Then, that's it. You finish.Jessica: And then you hopefully go on and maybe have your own little doctor's place and open that up or something.Todd: Well, best wishes on becoming a physician's assistant. I'm sure you'll make a good one.Jessica: Thank you.

In this episode, Jessica Van Cleave (SIG Chair) discusses with Cassie Quigley (Program co-chair) and Alexandra Panos (Program co-chair) what the Qualitative Research SIG has planned for the 2021 AERA conference. Below is the transcript of the conversations. VanCleave, Jessica: Hello everyone, welcome to qualitative conversations a podcast series hosted by the qualitative research special interest group of the American educational research association. I'm Jessic vancleave the current chair of the qualitative research special interest group. And i'm happy today to be joined by our program co chairs cassie quickly and Alex panelists and will be providing an overview of the 2021 annual meeting, which will be virtual for the first time this year and will take place from April 8 to April 12. Doctor cassie quickly as an associate professor of science, education and associate chair and the Department of teaching learning and leading at the school of education at the University of Pittsburgh.She received her doctorate and curriculum and instruction at indiana University in 2010. Dr quigley's expertise and qualitative research is focused on methodologies that Center the participants, such as Community based methodologies and using data collection methods like photo methods. In the past 11 years she has published over 50 articles and book chapters focused on those methods, including in journals, such as the International Journal of qualitative studies and education. Qualitative inquiry and the journal of mixed methods for search she also co authored a book on steam education entitled and educators guide to steam education, which is published by teachers college press. She has presented her qualitative work at numerous conferences, both nationally and internationally, she teaches qualitative research methodology courses on topics such as participatory action research, validity and reliability for qualitative work and ethics around educational research. VanCleave, Jessica: Alexandra panels as an assistant professor of literacy studies and affiliate faculty and measurement and research in the college of education at the University of South Florida. She earned her doctorate in literacy language and culture, education, with a minor in inquiry methodology at indiana university bloomington in 2018. Dr panels takes an interdisciplinary stance in her work as a critical qualitative methodology. And grounds her theoretical methodological and empirical work in her substantive field of literacy studies. She has published numerous articles and book chapters that focus on the critical environmental and spatial dimensions of qualitative methodologies and literacy studies. Most recently, she has served as senior guest editor on a special issue, focusing on the spatial dimensions of taken for granted qualitative research practices related to masking. And anonymous ation to be published in the international Journal of qualitative studies and education, this year.And, as a co author for a book project under contract with teachers college press titled confronting denial literacy social studies and climate change, thank you both for joining me today to talk about this year's Program. Alexandra Panos: happy to be here. Quigley, Cassie (she/her/hers): Thank you JESSICA. VanCleave, Jessica: So, to get started on can you just offer an overview of the program how many sessions are included, and what is the range of topics we're going to see. Quigley, Cassie (she/her/hers): sure. So this year we are really excited to have 14 different sessions 15 if you include the mentoring session and 16 with the business. Meeting, as well as the sessions include a variety of sessions around well being and care as well, we have a session around advocacy and justice. there's a wide variety of critical work that ranges from critical race practices post-human position ality feminist approaches and critical participatory inquiry. We are especially looking forward to learning from scholars in one session called disruption interruption change it's not enough what we need is sabotage critical participatory inquiry as sabotage in and out of the Academy this work draws from black and Asian feminist and D colonial stances. VanCleave, Jessica: Wonderful that sounds really exciting and thought provoking so, can you tell us a little bit about how many submissions the singer seen this year and how many slots were allotted to the same by eight yeah. Quigley, Cassie (she/her/hers): yeah absolutely so this year we had 46 submitted proposals and symposia 37 of those for paper or poster Roundtable sessions we had, A really a ton of symposium submitted, which were we had 10 symposium submitted this included a mentor session which we'll talk about a little bit later. And so, our process for reviewing and accepting these submissions really takes a lot to ever viewers like you all, and so we were really fortunate that. All of our reviewers accepted that the numbers of submissions that they proposed. That they could handle and really turned those sessions those reviews around in it in a short amount of time, so we just wanted to extend that thanks to our reviewers for that. Each of the proposals reviewed by three different people and including at least one graduate student reviewer. At that time, then it's turned over to Alex and me, and we spent almost about a month going over the process of looking across the reviews we do utilize the scores as you'll remember if you're a viewer you're often you're asked to score on a numerical basis, but that is not used to accept or reject our sessions instead we look holistically across the reviews, which really just helps to ensure that there's a bias towards one type of research over another, and so that kind of gives you a description of the process for the AERA sessions for the qualitative Research SIG. VanCleave, Jessica: It is a lot of work to put this program together both by you and Alex and all of the Members who service reviewers and we are so so grateful for all of that service. It really is a big job and seeing what we can expect at this year's annual meeting I'm very, very appreciative of the range of opportunities and the thoughtfulness that was put into that process. VanCleave, Jessica: So uhm one of the sessions that Members will have the opportunity to attend is the business meeting, can you tell us about the business meeting and what Members can expect if they attend that session. Quigley, Cassie (she/her/hers): Yes, absolutely we're really hoping that everyone is able to attend the business meeting.Because it really is our one time to gather together as a group, and of course we are wishing that we could be you know in community with one another, together face to face. But we still would love to see everybody join us online for this session, the session is about an hour long and we were able to pack quite a bit into this session, including a program report awards, and we will have a speaker which i'll talk to you about in just a minute, so our program report moves us through the various committees that are on that qualitative research day, including the Program mentor session for the mentor Committee, among others, the award session, which is quite a heavy lift for that committee includes outstanding book award outstanding dissertation award, which will be presented by the committee chairs, then we will have the Egon Guba speaker this year and we are so fortunate to have Mirka Koro accept that award and she is going to be speaking on speculative experimentation and methodological … . Our discussant will be Aaron Kuntz. And then we will be JESSICA will be introducing that session will end the business meeting with some closing remarks and some an opportunity to give input from our sig membership, so please join us for that one hour session if you're a. VanCleave, Jessica: Are we so grateful, when many of our Members attend that business meeting it's a nice opportunity to have a little bit of Community and connect with one another, even if we're doing so virtually this year, so, in addition to our business meeting one of the things that the sig supports each year or mentoring opportunities so, can you talk a bit about the mentoring session that's going to be offered and the other mentoring opportunities that are on the Program. Alexandra Panos: Sure, I can take that one JESSICA. Um the mentoring session we're really excited about i'm Kelly and the committee have worked really hard to create a space where. Members of the SIG can get guidance and feedback and discuss their work as either graduate students early career scholars. And I know we opened it this year to associate level faculty for mentorship into the next stage of their career as well, but that's sessions, going to be Sunday at 230 and it's a closed session so if you haven't signed up this year, that means it's not open but. This summer, and next fall calls will be going back out for applications to join the mentoring session as a mentee and then. I know that Kelly, and her committee work to invite and solicit members of the sig to lead in their mentorship capacity and this year, as well as past years, I know they focused on the concept of sickness, so if you're feeling stuck if there's something that's. Challenging in your work right now, this is the session for you to consider for next year. VanCleave, Jessica: um well, as you mentioned Kelly on the committee have lots of opportunities they not only support on our Members at a era, but they also provide opportunities for mentorship in the proposal process so keep an eye out for announcements on the list about those opportunities. There's also informal office hours with members of the same that are available during the annual meeting again that process as Alex mentioned is already concluded for this year but, but if you are interested in connecting with more senior members in the segue for mentoring opportunities at any stage of your career be on the lookout for opportunities as they come through the listserv. VanCleave, Jessica: On, so this is a lot this program has a lot to offer and a wide range of things across every day that the annual meeting is active, so what suggestions, do you have for Members, maybe, especially first time attendees to navigate the eight year a program and take advantage of the exciting QR saying sessions. Alexandra Panos: yeah thanks JESSICA, I agree, it can be a lot it's one of the reasons that orienting to the conference via the QR sig can be so helpful because it directs you to the kinds of sessions that as a qualitative researcher. And you would be especially interested in, so if you're already a member of the sig JESSICA has sent out A Google Doc that gives a really sort of straightforward overview calendar overview of each day. So you can see what's coming up and then at the bottom of that document there's a description of each of the sessions, with the abstract and the speakers and their titles of their papers and Roundtable session presentations and the symposia etc. But once the the system itself gets underway, and we have access to our virtual conference program if you're registered as an attendee or a presenter discussing or chair you'll be able to access that virtual conference platform through the AERA website and You can search for us via the sig so that you can find those sessions, you can search by presenter you can search by paper title. So it's it's pretty helpful, especially if you've already sort of done some of that homework of what is the QR sig doing and what are the, what are we up to in this space. I think it's also important to remember that if you're assigned to a session as a presenter co presenter a chair or discuss it or have some active role in a session. One of the cool things that they've shared with us about the virtual platform is that the system will just sort of plop you into this space that you need to be at that time, like there's no clicking or searching for you as a presenter or someone with a role in a session. If you'd like to attend a session within the platform, we believe, what i've come to understand, about the platform is that you'll be able to design your own schedule and joining session simply by clicking within the platform itself And we also strongly recommend that, given the nature of these new spaces, we know now, after a year For many of us of attending other virtual conferences that each virtual platform is unique and we should have access to it honor around April 2 and we want to recommend that you And, especially if you're presenting you and your co presenters spend some time getting used to the conference space use it to develop your own schedule and Just sort of stick in there and and get your get your hands on it era has made a number of videos available that describe the conflict conference platform and answer some questions about that, but we expect that getting in there ourselves will be the most instructive and we're waiting waiting with great with bated breath to get in there ourselves so we hope that's helpful and if you have any questions about the conference platform, the annual meeting website is a place where help will be found, and we are also always available to send you information that we might be able to share. VanCleave, Jessica: there's some really great tips, thank you for helping us think about how we might orient ourselves and and navigate both the platform and the content of this year's annual meeting so. VanCleave, Jessica: you're interested in the qualitative research say you've got you've been checking out our Program. VanCleave, Jessica: On but you're not yet a member, so can you talk to us a little bit about how you become a member of the qualitative research special interest group and what some of the benefits of membership might be. Alexandra Panos: Of course. Well, we think that you should be a member. Of the QR SIG definitely, especially if you're listening to this podcast which is produced by the QR SIG, so this is one of the Member benefits that extends beyond membership, but that you'd be supporting But when you become a member of AERA one of the things that you have the opportunity to to do is to select a division and sig. For free so most of the time you have to pay a small fee that helps support the sake, but you can when you register get one of those those free memberships and if you select the call say you're a member. Benefits include receiving emails specifically for the membership, which includes many opportunities for connecting with other members of the same with mentorship with workshops calls for special issues sort of a first pass at important content related to qualitative research and our personal favorite with membership to the sig includes opportunities to review for the Conference, which is so beneficial to our field to. The sig itself and to your fellow call researchers, so if you have any questions about membership, you can reach out to any of us and we're happy to answer them and we really hope that if you aren't yet you will join us. VanCleave, Jessica: Absolutely, we are very lucky to participate in such a vibrant Community that is continuously growing, and we hope that as many folks as are interested well will join us and continue to diversify and broaden our Community. So thank you so much cassie and Alex for joining me today and providing an overview of what Members can expect from the qualitative research same program this year. I hope to see all of you who are listening at our business meeting and I hope you'll consider joining the sake and contributing to our Community thanks again for being with us today on qualitative conversations. Alexandra Panos: Thanks JESSICA. Quigley, Cassie (she/her/hers): Thank you.

02:28 - Jonan’s Superpower: Jonan’s Friends * The Quality and Reliability of One’s Personal Network * Finding Community * The Ruby Community in Particular – Focus on People and Programmer Joy * Happy Birthday, Ruby (https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/)! 09:07 - How Developer Relations is Changing (DevRel) * Kicking Off New Relic (https://newrelic.com/)’s New Developer Relations Program * Outreach and Community Growth Value * Developing Developer Empathy & Adjusting Content in the Spirit of Play * The Correct Role of DevRel 22:41 - Doing DevRel Right * Feedback Loops * The Definition of Success 31:45 - Engaging with Communities & Networks via DevRel * Using Twitch, YouTube, Discord, TikTok, Twitter, etc. * Consider the Platform * The Relicans (https://www.therelicans.com/) * Emily Kager's TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@shmemmmy?lang=en) * @theannalytical (https://twitter.com/theannalytical) * @cassidoo (https://twitter.com/cassidoo) * @laurieontech (https://twitter.com/laurieontech) 40:22 - Internal DevRel * Content Review Meetings * Make Friends w/ Marketing/Internal Communications (Comms) * Be Loud & Overcommunicate 53:32 - Addressing Trauma & The Evil in the World “I respect facts but I live in impressions.” In The Mouth of Madness (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113409/) Reflections: Mando: We are who we spend time with. Rein: If you want to understand how someone behaves, you have to understand their environment and experiences. Jess: If it works, it’s going to be obvious it works. Jonan: Talking about the things that suck and talking about who you are in a real way. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: PRE-ROLL: Whether you're working on a personal project or managing enterprise infrastructure, you deserve simple, affordable, and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level. Simplify your cloud infrastructure with Linode's Linux virtual machines and develop, deploy, and scale your modern applications faster and easier. Get started on Linode today with $100 in free credit for listeners of Greater Than Code. You can find all the details at linode.com/greaterthancode. Linode has 11 global data centers and provides 24/7/365 human support with no tiers or hand-offs regardless of your plan size. In addition to shared and dedicated compute instances, you can use your $100 in credit on S3-compatible object storage, Managed Kubernetes, and more. Visit linode.com/greaterthancode and click on the "Create Free Account" button to get started. JONAN: Welcome back to Greater Than Code. This is Episode 227. I am Jonan Scheffler and I'm joined today by my guest, Jessica Kerr. How are you, Jessica? JESSICA: Thank you, Jonan. Well, I’m great today because I get to be here with my friend, Rein Henrichs. REIN: Aw thanks, Jessica. And I'm here with my friend, Mando Escamilla. MANDO: Thanks, Rein and just to bring it back around, I'm here with my friend, Jonan Scheffler. Jonan Scheffler is the Director of Developer Relations at New Relic. He has a long history of breaking things in public and occasionally putting them back together again. His interest in physical computing often leads him to experiment with robotics and microelectronics, although his professional experience is more closely tied to cloud services and modern application development. In order to break things more effectively, he is particularly excited about observability as of late, and he’s committed to helping developers around the world live happier lives by showing them how to keep their apps and their dreams alive through the night. Welcome to Greater Than Code, Jonan. How are you doing today, bud? JONAN: I am great. I liked the part where I got to intro your podcast. That was a lot of fun, actually. MANDO: It was fantastic, man. JONAN: This bio, this guest sounds really interesting, if I would be permitted to say so myself as the guest. MANDO: So we like to start off every podcast with our normal question that we ask every guest, which is, what is your superpower, Jonan and how did you acquire it? JONAN: My superpower is my friends. They are my superpower and I acquired them after a long career in software and talking to a lot of humans. I don't know actually why, but it's been easy for me to make friends in software. I felt like early on, I found my people and then I just got lucky and it's going okay so far. I'm very fortunate to have them. MANDO: Well, we're fortunate to have you, bud. It's interesting that you say this, I mean, just like Slack for operators, DevOps folks, and Savvy folks, there’s been a lot of discussion as of late on the quality and reliability of one's personal network in things like finding new jobs, finding new opportunities, learning and growing in your career, and stuff like that. It’s been interesting for me personally, because my experience, Jonan sounds a lot more like yours. I was very lucky to find some strong communities of folks that were very welcoming to me. I found my people pretty early on, but a lot of the folks in this other community that I'm tangentially related to seem to have had wildly different experience. I don't know if it's like a software development versus operator kind of thing and in-person versus not in-person kind of thing. It's something that struck me as weird. JONAN: I think it varies by community, too. I've gone to a lot of conferences for a lot of different languages and depending on the conference and depending on the community, I think that you're going to have a different time. I think if I were starting over again, I would probably follow about the same path—attend small conferences with tight focuses and get to know a couple people early on who seem to be having a lot of those conversations, watch for a social butterfly and tag along for a bit and you'll get introduced. MANDO: I'm pretty sure that I met Rein at a local Ruby conference here in Austin. Is that right, Rein? REIN: Sounds right. Sure, yeah. MANDO: But I think it was one of the first Lone Star Ruby Conferences where we met. REIN: Yeah, that sounds right. JONAN: Yeah. I think speaking of butterflies, I also met Rein, I think at one of the very first conferences I attended back in the day. Being welcomed and seeing the application of the Pac-Man rule, where when standing in a circle, you always leave a space for a guest to join and someone joins and you open up again in-person back in the Ruby community in that day was, I think inspiring for me; directed how I decided I was going to be when I showed up here. So thank you, Rein. REIN: It's funny. I remember when I was new to the Ruby community and not sure what to do. I was new to programming, too. I started going to the local Austin meetup actually and the welcome I got as someone who didn't go to college for computer science, someone who wasn't a professional programmer, someone who was just thought it was cool and thought maybe that I could get paid to do it at some point in the future really made a big difference in my life. JONAN: Jessica, how did you get started? JESSICA: Good question. Before I answer it, I noticed that we're talking about Ruby conferences and Ruby programmers and indeed, I learned Ruby in order to go to Ruby conferences so that I could talk to Ruby people because part of the superpowers that that language gives you is friends or buds back in the day, but still is because the Ruby conferences are still super friendly back when we had them. REIN: Yeah. MANDO: Yeah, that's a really good point. I was a professional programmer for probably 5, or 6 years before I started doing Ruby programming. I would say that for those first 5, or 6 years, before I joined the Ruby community, I didn't feel at all like I had any kind of community or group of people. JONAN: What do you think inspires that in a community? I think strong leadership is part of it. Matt has certainly received his share of criticism over the year, but I think that fundamentally, he was trying to build a place where people focused on people instead of the glyphs that we type into our little boxes. I think that matters. What else do you think there is to that? REIN: We here at Greater Than Code also agree with that sentiment. [laughter] JONAN: Seems to align, doesn't it? JESSICA: Yeah, that focus on people and Ruby was always about programmer joy. It was always about the experience; it was always about being happy and there wasn’t that expectation that the optimal thing to do is to go in a corner and type. JONAN: Yeah, I think it's very fortuitous timing that we're actually discussing Ruby so much on the 24th, which was the day that Ruby was named 28 years ago on February 24th, Ruby became the name of this language. So happy birthday, Ruby. JESSICA: Aw. Yeah, happy [inaudible]. JONAN: It really has changed my life. I have regularly, whenever I've seen Matt at a conference, got up to thank him for my house and my kids' college education. Before I got into software, I did a lot of things, but none of them would have brought me either of those. I spent probably 10 years in factories and hotels and casinos. I was a poker dealer for my last gig before I got into software and the number of opportunities that Ruby opened up for me, I can't as long as I live be too grateful; I'll be paying it forward till I die. JESSICA: Yeah, but not the language it's the community—the people, the friends. JONAN: Yeah, exactly. It's the community. It's the people who welcomed me with open arms and made sure that they were contributing to my growth in a far more altruistic sense than, I think is reasonable to expect. I mean, I had nothing to offer in return except a good conversation and high fives and hugs and they spent their time in their energy taking me around conferences and making sure I met people and it was great. REIN: I remember when you first went to New Relic and you were first thinking about, “Hey, maybe I could do this developer relations thing.” What I remember about that, in addition to your obvious aptitude at talking to people about things, is the help that you got, the advice, the mentorship that you got from your friends in the community. I remember at the time being blown away by that; by how many people were willing to just take an hour of their time to talk to you about what it was like for them as a DevRel and things like that. JONAN: Yeah, and I'm still very fortunate to have those people who have helped me build this team here. When I did the onboarding, I put together an elaborate onboarding process. I was able to hire all ten of the DevRel engineers here at the same time. We spent a week doing improv training and having speakers come in as guests and I was able to invite all of these DevRel leaders from over the years to give a perspective on what DevRel was in their eyes, but it is today and always has been clear to me that I am only here where I am by the grace of the communities that I was lucky enough to join. I wonder if developer relations is changing; if it's at a different place than it was when I started out. I feel like certainly, pandemic times have affected things, but all that aside, the segment of the industry is still pretty small. There are only maybe 10,000 people doing this work around the world. It's hard to believe because we're quite loud, right? [chuckles] We’ve got a lot of stages. You see a lot of us, but there are many of us and I think that the maturity of the discipline, I guess, is progressing. We are developing ways to measure the effectiveness. Being able to prove the value to a company is going to change the game for us in a lot of ways. REIN: Yeah. I would love to talk to you about that at length, [chuckles] but for the purposes of this podcast, let's say that you're someone who wants to start a program at a company that doesn't have directly tangible make numbers go up in a business sense value, but you believe that if you're given the chance to do it, that you can show them the value. How do you get that opportunity? JONAN: That's a really good question. Kicking off a developer relations program is, I think it's the same as building most major initiatives within a company. If you had an idea for a software project that should be undertaken, or a major feature that mattered to you, it's about building allies early and often. Making sure that when you show up in that meeting to have the conversation with the decisionmaker, that nine out of ten people in that meeting already know about the plan. They have already contributed their feedback; they feel ownership of that plan and they're ready to support you so that you have the answer going in. I think the mistake that I made often in my career was walking into that room and just pitching my idea all at once and then all of the questions that come out of that and all of the investigation that is necessary and the vetting appears as though this wasn't a very well-thought-out plan, but getting the people on board in the first place is vitally important. I think also you have a lot of examples to look through. You have a chance to talk about other programs and the success that they've brought, the companies where they started off. It's not a thing that you need to start in a big way. You can put a couple of people on the conference speaking circuit, or a couple of people focusing part of their week on outreach and community growth and see where it takes you. If you start to see the numbers, it becomes a lot easier case to make. REIN: You were talking about how you're excited about being able to make this value more tangible in the future. What do you think is the shift that's happening in DevRel that’s making that possible? JONAN: So I think there are actually kind of a lot of factors here. One is that DevRel had a division almost of method where some people, probably by the leadership of their companies, were convinced that what they should be doing is talking about the product all of the time. You're there to talk about the product and evangelize the product and get people to use the product. That is part of your role, but it shouldn't be, in my opinion, the primary role that you play. You should be there in the community participating. In the same way that Rein stood in that hallway and welcomed me to Ruby, I need to stand in that hallway and welcome newcomers to all the communities of which I'm part and in so doing, build that group of friends and build that understanding of the community and their needs. I develop empathy for the developers using our product and, in the industry, generally and that's invaluable intelligence. I sometimes think of ourselves as these like operatives—we’re undercover marketing operatives out there in the developer world talking to developers and just understanding them and it at one point, took a turn towards, “Well, I'm just going to talk about New Relic all the time,” for example. It feels good to see all that content and see all those talks. However, you're only talking to your existing audience. No one is Googling “what exciting things can I do with New Relic,” “seven awesome New Relic tips.” No one's searching for that. They're out there looking at things that are interesting. They want to click on a link on Twitter that is about some random topic. Running Kubernetes on Raspberry Pis and soldering things to Yoda dolls. That's the kind of stuff that I'm going to click on in my free time and in that spirit of play, that's where I want to be engaged and that's where I want to be engaging people. So I think there was this turn. That's part of it and then in reaction to that, I think that the teams who were doing DevRel well and actually seeking out ways to lift up and support the communities and gather that information for their companies—and yes, certainly talk about their products when the situation warrants it. But I mean, how do you feel about that person who shows up to a conference wearing a New Relic hoodie and a New Relic shirt and a New Relic backpack and says “New Relic,” the first 10 minutes you meet them, a hundred times? But you're like, “Wow, this is a friend who is here for my best interests.” MANDO: Right, or every presentation that they give is 30-minute infomercial for whatever company. JONAN: Yeah. So I think people are headed away from that and in response to that, you saw a lot of success from the people who are doing DevRel well. In addition to that, it's becoming to measure these things in hopefully less creepy ways. We can track the people who show up to anything that we do now. If I have a Twitch stream, I can see how many people were there; Twitch provides good stats for me. I can pull those stats out via an API, I can connect them to my podcasting for the week, I can connect them my blogging for the week, and I can show that my audience is growing over time. So whether or not it is valuable yet, we're building the machine right now. We're finding ways to measure those things and that will allow us to adjust the content in a direction that is popular and that’s really just what we're trying to do. We're trying to give the people what they want. We want to talk about the things that people want to hear about. I want to talk about the fun stuff, too, but I'm very surprised sometimes when I learn that hey, nobody wants to hear about my 3D printer API project with Ruby. They want to watch me solder a Raspberry Pi to a Yoda doll and that's great. I'm down for both of those things, I really don't care. But being able to adjust your content towards the sort of thing that is going to interest your community is really valuable obviously to developer relations and we're getting better at it. We have more data than we've had before and not in a way that, to me, feels like that is violating people's personal privacy. REIN: Where do you think that DevRel ought to fit in a company's structure? Is it part of revenue? Is it a sales adjunct? Like, what is the correct role of DevRel? J: I don't think it's part of revenue. I think that it leads to that. But in developer relations, we talk about orbits a lot instead of funnels. We talk about bringing people into the orbit. You generate content so that you generate gravity and you move people in the orbits closer to the company so, you can talk to them more and help them with their problems. When you tie that to revenue, it changes the goal. Is the goal to be out there and help, or is the goal to get the cogs into the machine and continue turning them until they produce coins? When you tie developer relations to revenue, you become trapped in this cycle because look, we’re hackers. If you give me a number you want me to hit, then I can hit the number. But am I hitting the number in the most useful way? Am I generating long-term value for the company? Almost certainly not. 
 It's like the leader that you bring in. So like, “Hey, revenues are up because I fired customer support. Yes, all of them.” In the short-term, there's going to be some great numbers. You just believe yourself and entire team. Long-term, you’re the new Xfinity with the lowest customer support ratings that have ever existed for a company. So I think that actually the majority live under marketing right now and I think it makes sense. I think that developer relations people do themselves a disservice by not understanding marketing and understanding the role they play there. I actually think it belongs under its own organization. But if you try and think about that means from a corporate hierarchy perspective, that means that there's probably a C-level who is responsible only for community growth and C-levels by design, they have numbers, they have dollars that they are bringing in. So until we get to a point where we can prove that the dollars are coming in because of our work, there's not going to be a chief developer relations officer at any company. But give me 5, 10 years, maybe I'll be the first CDRO. MANDO: It's interesting to hear you. I didn't know that they were usually grouped under marketing, but that sounds right. In my most recent life, I worked at two different companies who did a combination of social media management, analytics platforms, and stuff like that. A majority of our customers at both of these places were in the marketing org and they were hitting the same kinds of things that you're talking about that developer relations groups are hitting. They're trying to provide numbers for the kinds of stuff that they're doing, but there's that inherent, not contradiction, but discord between trying to give customers what they want, but have it also not be infomercials. JONAN: Yeah, and I think that that is a tough spot for DevRel teams. I think no matter where you stand in the organization, you need to be very close friends with marketing. They have a tremendous amplifying effect for the work that I do; what I want to do is produce content and I am uniquely suited to do that. I’m a person who can show up on the podcast and wax philosophical about things like developer relations. I enjoy that. I would like it if that was my whole day. What you need to try and design is a world where it is your whole day. There are people who are better at that than you are; that's why you're there as a team. Your job is to get up and talk about the thing, explain technical concepts in easily digestible ways—a process called vulgarization, I guess, a more commonly used word in French. But I think it's very interesting that we vulgarize things. I mostly just turn things into swear words, but the marketing organization puts a huge amount of wind at your back where I can come onto a podcast and spend an hour talking words and then the podcast is edited, tweets go out, images are made and it's syndicated to all the various platforms. If you can get that machine helping you produce your work in the background, you don't have to know all of the content creation pieces that most of us know. Most of us are part-time video/audio/any content platform, we mostly do it ourselves and taking the support of your organization where you can get it is going to be tremendously helpful in growing the team. REIN: So if you can't tell, this is a personally relevant topic for and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the short-term pressures of there might be for DevRel orgs to produce numbers that the business likes and how you balance that with your long-term vision? What's the story you tell leadership that's effective there? JONAN: That's a really good question. So I talk about this developer orbit as being almost pre-funnel work, that there are people that we have within the company who are real good at turning an email address into a dollar and turning a dollar into 10. There are people who have spent 20 years learning how to do that thing. What I'm really good at is getting people to care in the first place and that's my job here. I describe it sometimes like an awareness campaign in marketing; this is the thing that you put the money on the billboards all over San Francisco and people spend millions and they'll go and get VC events, spend every dollar, making every billboard look like their logo because it works. Because just making people aware whether or not they like the billboard, making people aware that you exist is a first step and I would rather that people complain about our product and complain about our company on Twitter than just not think of us because then you're irrelevant. You're not even part of the conversation. Being able to shift sentiment in the community and being able to hear people, genuinely hear people. It doesn't matter to them, when they're angry on Twitter, that they're factually incorrect. Wrong answer. It's your fault. Show up and just address it, “Hey, that sucks. I hate that. Wow, I'm sorry that happened. Let me see if I can fix it,” and go talk to the product team. So I talk about it in that way as this kind of pre-funnel work. And then I talk about how we are measuring it and where we measure it as a team is this care orbit where we have a curiosity and awareness step that work in tandem, where people either have seen the words New Relic, or they've seen the logo, and this is awareness. Or they are curious and they've actually clicked on a thing; they've actually followed that down the rabbit hole. And sometimes, they may be aware because we sponsored a conference one time; they've seen us, they know that we exist, but they have no idea what we do. So if they are curious, they're getting to a step where they could buy a free word association exercise, connect New Relic and observability, for example. And when they're doing research, I don't think there's a whole lot of interactivity we have there as a team there. When I go and research product – think about how you'd buy a developer product. I hear someone say something three times, tail scale. I've been seeing a lot of conversation about tail scale lately. So I hear someone say tail scale three times and then I think to myself, wow, I should probably care about that thing because it's relevant to my career and I don't want to fall behind. In a couple of years, this may be the thing that everyone is using for whatever it does. I don't even know what it does. I better go figure it out and then I go and I do my research and, in that step, I'm reading documentation and I might have run across a blog post, but I'm certainly not watching webinars. I'm just not going to be in that step. And then there's entry. I say entry instead of sign-up because I just want people close to us. I want them to enter the orbit. I want them to be bought in on the dream of the community and hopefully, we've expressed our values in a way that makes it clear that this is the place for them and we're talking about values and not features of a product. Think about how Apple has been successful. Apple is selling a dream. Apple's throwing a woman throws a sledgehammer through the screen in front of people and that's the dream. That's what you're actually buying is this identity, this tribe. I think companies more often end up creating these bulleted lists of checkmarks. I saw one the other day that was probably 50 items long. Here are the 50 things that we do and look at those 2 checkmarks. Our competitor doesn't have those. Gotcha! I don't care. Prove to me that you value the things that I value. Sell me on the purpose and that's the kind of thing that we're really good about talking about. And if you can demonstrate that in a boardroom, then your program will be fun, but you've got to measure it, you've got to show that people are making progress, and you've got to show growth over time. “See, look, we may not be pointing the megaphone in the right direction right now, but it's growing. We're getting a better megaphone. Is that enough for now?” And then we can direct over time, our contact direction towards the place that is being most successful for us as a company and hey, maybe it's I just talk about New Relic all the time, but I'm willing to bet it won't be and when the time comes, I'll have data to prove it. REIN: In the meantime, how do you know whether what you're doing is working? What are your feedback loops look like? JONAN: My feedback loops, our feedback loops as a team right now, we know what we're doing is working when our total audience size is growing. This is kind of a sketchy metric because there are different values to different audiences. For example, Twitch versus Twitter. If I'm going to follow on Twitter, then I follow on my personal account or I follow on the New Relic account because those both provide a place for me to use my voice to engage people. It's a much lower value engagement platform, though from a one follow perspective. 30,000 people I tweeted in front of, 5 will click or 5 will care about the content and that's great and maybe I'm really good at Twitter. I'm not, if I fail, I don't spend as much time on it as I should, but maybe I can refocus my content. I get more via the platform. If you look at something like Twitch, however, someone follows me on Twitch, that means that every time I go live on my stream, they get a notification on every single one of their devices by default. I mean, you can turn it off, but what's the point in following someone, if you're going to turn off the notification; you want the notification. You're saying, “This is the content that I am here for, watching Jonan solder on this silly thing or teach people how to write Ruby from scratch. That's the stuff I signed up for. That's why I'm here on Twitch and I want to be a part of that.” Those have a kind of a higher value. So there is something to weighted consideration across the platforms. But first of all, is your audience grow, just generally? Are you getting a bigger megaphone and more importantly, how are you doing it and moving people from “I'm aware that you exist” to curiosity, “I'm investigating you”? And that's a step when they're aware they've done something like click on a Twitter profile. It's a hard case to make that if they click on my Twitter profile and they see that it says New Relic, that they will have no idea what New Relic does. I have now at least made it into their brain somehow and they will say, “Oh, I've heard that name before.” But the next step of getting people over to curiosity, let's say that we successfully get 10% of our audience over there and 1% of our total audience size, this quarter actually ended up creating accounts and that's where things get real hard because companies tend to have really entrenched MarTech, measuring marketing technology, measuring, and Google analytics setups. And it's hard to bind that piece together to be like, “That signup? That came from us.” We did that and you need to stand up and say it loudly within a company because everyone else is. Everyone else is real excited to take credit for your work, believe me. You’ve got to stand up and prove it, stand up and say, “DevRel did this. DevRel was growing the company.” We're doing good things for the community. We're helping people understand how to use our product. They're caring more about us because we care about them first and here are the numbers to show it. Did that answer your question? I tend to ramble. REIN: Yeah, no it did. Can we do a thing? Can we do a little improv thing, Jonan? JONAN: Yes. REIN: Okay. So I am a chief revenue officer and I hear your pitch and what I say is, “Okay, so I get the DevRel increases engagement. So how much are you committing to improve conversion? How many percentage points are you guaranteeing that you'll deliver in the next quarter?” JONAN: In the first quarter of our existence, I'm going to go with none. I would say in the second quarter of our existence, we will have developed a baseline to compare against and I can guarantee that we will be growing the audience by 10% month over month, over our previous audience size. As the audience grows, it is very directly correlated to numbers that you care about like, signups. If I talked to a 1,000 people, I get 10 signups. If I talk to 10,000 people, I get a 100 and that's the baseline. I mean, that's just the math of it. And if I'm doing a great job, maybe I get 15. So if we want to actually do the math, give me a quarter to do the math. Give me a quarter to establish a baseline because I don't know where our company stands in the market right now. If I'm starting off here at this company and you're Google, I'm not going to have a hard time raising awareness, am I? I think most people have heard of you. If you're Bob's awesome startup and you don't have any awareness out there, then we have some different things to focus on and our numbers are going to look different. We're have a slower ramp. But if you're asking me to commit to where you are right now, then I need numbers first. I need to be able to build the machine, I need to be able to measure it, and once I have those metrics in place, I can tell you what those goals should be and we can set them together and when we exceed them, we will adjust upwards because we are aggressive by nature. We like to win at these things. We like to be good at it because for us, it means that we're doing a better job of loving our people. That's what success means by the numbers. The numbers that to you mean money. If we're doing DevRel right, to me, they mean that I am living with purpose. So yes, I can measure those things, but you’ve got to give me time to get a baseline, or the numbers that I make up will be meaningless and we'll be optimizing for the wrong things. How'd I do? REIN: I’d buy it for a dollar. JONAN: Yes! Sold! MANDO: Yeah, I believe you. So tangentially related; you talked about Twitter and Twitch as two platforms that you're using to engage with prospective folks and grow and welcome the community. I was wondering if there were other places, other things that you use either personally, or as part of your DevRel work to do that same kind of stuff, or if you have specific types of interactions for specific different types of networks? JONAN: Yeah, absolutely. I had left one of our primary platforms off of there, which was YouTube because we're still headed in a direction where we can make that a lightweight process of contributing our work to YouTube. So our strategy, as a team, is to head for platforms that offer two-way engagement. I think that in our generation, we've got a lot of criticism for being the Nintendo generation. “Oh, you were raised by television; you have no attention span.” I have no attention span for TV news. I have no attention span for this one-way oration that has been media consumption my entire life because I live in a world where I have “choose your own adventure” media. Where I can join a Twitch channel and I can adjust the direction of the conversation. Where I can get on Twitter and have a real conversation with famous people, because I am interesting and engaging and responding to them in intelligent ways, hopefully. When you tweet poop emojis at people in your software community as your only game, it's not as likely to drive engagement, but they're very engaging platforms and so, we're aiming for things like that. YouTube being the possible exception. YouTube is still levelling up there. I'm not sure if you find out on the YouTube comments section lately, but it's a little bit wild in there. It's getting better; they're working on it. And those are the kinds of platforms that I want to be a part of. So as far as new things go, I'm going to go with not Clubhouse. Clubhouse has one, got some accessibility stuff to work out, but two, in my opinion, stuck in a trap where they're headed towards that one-way conversation. Anyway, it may be a conversation like this podcast, which I love doing, but our audience isn't given an opportunity to respond in real-time and to drive the direction. Clubhouse is eventually going to turn into a similar platform where you have a hundred people in a room. Can a hundred people speak at once in the same conversation? I don't think so. So there's the accessibility piece – [overtalk] JESSICA: In text! JONAN: In text, they could. JESSICA: Yeah, that’s the beauty of the combination. REIN: Clubhouse needs to innovate by providing a text version of their application. JONAN: Or when we get NLP, when we get natural language processing to the point where those kinds of things can become accessible conversations automatically, then it's different and people can contribute in their own ways. You can have a realistic sounding robot voice who’d read your thoughts aloud for the group. But beyond those, beyond Twitch, YouTube, Twitter, we're checking out TikTok a little bit, that's kind of fun content. It's a good way for us to reuse clips and highlights from our Twitch stuff without having to go through the old process of creating the new content and similarly, for YouTube. If I get on my high horse and I'm waxing philosophical about why you should use instance variables instead of class variables, I can put that piece out and I can make a YouTube video about why you should use instance variables instead of fostered. That kind of content does well on that platform, but you need to consider the platform and I would say, choose a few and focus there, look for the ones that actually have high engagement. Discord is another good place to hang out, love hanging on Discord. And then you've got to be blogging too, but blog in a place where you can own the conversation and make it about what matters to you as a community. We're real focused on learning and teaching, helping people become content creators, and focusing on the quality of software, generally. We're data people. We want to be talking about that. So we have our own community on therelicans.com where we talk about that. That's just a instance of forum. It's just like dev.to, but we own it and we get to period the content a little bit in a direction that is valuable. You want to keep them loose when you're going in community so that you can let the community take shape as it grows into those values. But that's my recommendation for platforms. MANDO: Right on. Thanks, man. It's funny that you bring up TikTok—not at all related how I've recently fallen down and continuing to fall down the TikTok rabbit hole and out of all the different types of content I see on TikTok, it is tech content that I have seen almost zero of. It’s just like, I don't know if there's just like a dearth of the content or if the algorithm hasn't set stuff up to me. JONAN: Yeah. MANDO: The algorithm is super good about all other kinds of things that I'm super into like, I'm inundated with cute dogs and goats and [laughs] you name it, but I don't know. Maybe the algorithm is telling me something about myself that... JONAN: No, I mean, you just have to click on it. JESSICA: Or something about tech content. JONAN: I always just cause answer. Yeah. Jessica, you have thoughts on TikTok? JESSICA: Well, TikTok is really cool but it t's just takes a ton of work to make a piece of content that tight, especially around something technical. JONAN: Yeah. I think that's a good point, actually, that it's not as easy as it looks ever producing a piece of content. You may watch a video for 2 to 3 minutes. I once had a 5-minute lightning talk, but I did 65 takes on it. it took me maybe 20 hours to just record the thing, not counting the 100 hours of research I put into the actual content. So depending on the piece of content and how polished you’re going to make it – TikTok’s initiating platform, though. Look up Emily Kager. If you go watch Emily Kager’s TikToks, you'll head down the right path, I suspect into the good tech ones. MANDO: Awesome. Thanks, man. JONAN: I really like the ones that are explaining algorithms with M&Ms. That kind of video, I like those ones a lot. Here's how databases work under the hood. This is actually what in the endgame using toys or whatever is handy. Cats, I saw someone that worked with their cats and the cats are running all about it. [chuckles] It was fun. MANDO: Oh, that's awesome and that's the kind of stuff that, I mean, I don't know what the time limit is on TikTok stuff, but our TikToks, if they seem to be about a minute to a minute and a half, it's not like you could do any kind of in-depth deep dive on something, but something like describe what Kubernetes with Legos, or something. It seems like you could fit some sort of bite-size explanations, or a series of definitions, right? JONAN: Yeah. MANDO: I mean, there's someone, whose videos I see all the time, who does these videos on obscure Lord of the Rings facts. She'll describe this intricate familial family tree of beings whose definitions have spanned not only the Silmarillion, but other – and she fits it all in a minute and a half. It's fascinating and it's amazing to watch. I'm sure, like you were saying, the stuff she's been researching and she knows this stuff. She spent probably years and years and user for life gathering this knowledge and gathering the ability to distil it down into a minute and a half. JONAN: Yeah, and I mean, it's not even – look, I think a lot of people have the perception, especially starting out creating content, that you have to be the expert. You don't have to be the expert. You just have to do the work, go read about the thing, then talk about the thing. You're actually better suited to talk about it when you've just learned it, by far. Because you know the pain, you have a fresh memory of the pain and the parts of that API you're describing that were difficult to understand and once you become a Kubernetes expert, those things are lost to you. They become opaque; you can't find the parts that were terrible because the memory of the pain goes away. So TikTok is a good place to explore with that kind of stuff in a short-form piece of content. I have a couple more recommendations for you that I'll drop for you in the show notes, too about the people on Twitter—@theannalytical is great at that thing, @cassidoo, and @laurieontech. I'll put them all for you in the show notes. But there are, there are some people you can emulate early on and if you're just starting out, don't be afraid to get up there on the stage. The bottom line is in life in general, we're all just making it up as we go along and you can make it up, too. What have you really got to lose? You're not doing it today. Tomorrow, you would still not be doing it if you don't try. REIN: Continuing with my program of using this podcast to ask Jonan to help me with my personal problems, do you have any thoughts about internal developer relations? Or let me ask this a different way. There are companies that are big enough that there are teams that have never met other teams and there are teams that produce platforms that are used by application development teams and so on. What are your thoughts about building more cohesive and engaged developer communities within a company? JONAN: Yes, do it. I've considered this a huge part of what developer relations needs to be doing generally. Binding those departments together and finding the connections for people and advocating the use of internal software, those internal tooling teams. This is why a lot of DevRel people have a background in internal tooling, myself included. It's just fun to be helping out your friends. That's why you get into DevRel. You like helping your friends and developers are your friends and they're my favorite people. The point that I was making about internal developer relations is yeah, you should be doing it already as part of a DevRel team, but there are actually dedicated teams starting to form. Lyft, I think was one of the first people I heard of doing this where there's an entire team of people. Because the bottom line is DevRel is a very, very busy job. Because you don't have this marketing machine behind you working very effectively, you're probably doing a lot of the production work of your role anyway and it takes a full day to do a podcast well, in many cases. So you're losing a day every time you spend an hour on a microphone. But if you're doing that and then you're going to conferences and then you're writing blog posts and then you're having the usual buffet of meetings and everyone wants to talk to you all the time to just check in and sync and see how we can collaborate; we need forms for that. When people come to me and they want us to speak at their event, or they want us to collaborate on a piece of conduct, I have a form for that and once a week, the entire team sits down and we review all of those in a content review meeting and that guarantees that person, the highest quality of feedback for their project, all 10 of us, 11 of us counting myself, are going to look at that and give them the answers they need and we have guaranteed timeline for them. We have a deal that we will respond to you by Friday 2:00 PM Pacific if you give us the thing by Thursday morning, every single week like clockwork and that encourages the rest of the organization to engage you the way that makes sense for you as a team, instead of just little random ad hoc pieces. So yes, it should be done internally. You need to make space for it. If you are doing external DevRel, too, but it's already part of your job and having a dedicated team actually makes a ton of sense. I would love to see more of that. REIN: Let's say that I am a technical lead, or a senior developer and there's this thing that my team has been doing and I really wish the rest of the company knew about it because I think it could help them. What should I do? JONAN: You should find marketing people. You're looking for the internal comms team in your marketing organization. There are people whose whole job is to communicate those things to the rest of the company; they're very good at it and they can tell you about all those avenues. We all have that internal blog thing, whatever. They're all pretty terrible, honestly, especially in larger companies—nobody reads them, that’s the problem—but they can help you get engagement on those things, help them be shared in the right channels, in your chat platform. That's the people I would work out to. There are humans who are real good at helping you talk about your work and they're in marketing and it's a difficult place to engage, but look for your internal comms person. Failing that, make sure that your project is on point before you take it to people. If you don't have a read me that is at a 110%, that's your first step. Make sure that people understand how they can get involved and how to use the project and try it over and over and over again from scratch. Break it intentionally and see how painful it is to fix. Make it just the most user-friendly product you possibly can before you take it out there and you'll get better. MANDO: This is something also that not just techniques and senior engineers should be thinking about management should be thinking about this for their entire teams and the people that they manage and lead. Because if you can provide visibility for the stuff that your people are working on and have worked on throughout the year, when you, as a manager, go to your management when salary reviews and unit reviews come up, it's much easier to make the case that your team mates or your people on your team should get the salary increases that you're trying to get them. If they have had the visibility for their work. If you can say, “Oh, remember this big thing,” and you can point to the blog post and you can point to the Slack conversation where 10 people congratulated Sam on her upgrade for Costco or whatever it is. You know what I mean? JONAN: Yeah, and you have to talk loud here. MANDO: Yeah. JONAN: You’ve got to scream about it. Look, people are only going to hear 25% of what you say anyway, and it feels like bragging, but overcommunicate and often, especially people in management. I mean, really think about how many bulleted lists go across a manager's desk and how you want yours to matter. Better make it longer and more relevant and as detailed as possible so that some portion of it actually makes it through to their consciousness and they can communicate it on there's superiors. Superiors is a terrible way to say that; they're managers. MANDO: They're managers, right? Yeah. This is something that I learned as I was going through management and something that was never taught to me and it's something that I advocate really strongly about. But if you're managing people, if you're leading people and you're not advocating for them and for their work, like you're saying, as loudly as possible to the point of possibly being annoying, you're straight up not doing your job. JONAN: Yeah, you are. I learned early on in my career that the loudest people were the ones getting the promotions and having the career success, whether or not they were good, or they were actually contributing things that were value. I watched someone merge 600 lines of untested code against the objections of his coworkers and get a promotion about it. That's about conversations; it's not about quality. REIN: Yeah, I also think there are things that companies can be doing to make this easier. So you can have a weekly show and tell email. JONAN: Yes. REIN: You can let people pitch stuff to it, you can track engagement with it, and see whether people are getting value out of it and try to make it better. JONAN: And that's exactly it: you have to have a feedback mechanism so that you can adjust the direction of your content. We actually have plans, when we get our feet under us a bit, to do a morning news show like of us had in high school. Just 5 minutes in the morning where we take a question a day and explain it. There are a lot of people who work at our companies who have no idea what a virtual machine is, or at what layer it operates, and how it differs from a container. Telling them the difference between LXC and VMs, that's a thing that DevRel people do well. So we can actually explain, I can take Kubernetes and I can explain it with M&M's in 5 minutes, and then I can invite people to come and talk to the devil to come hang out in the Slack channel. There's a Q&A form. We answer one of these every morning, maybe your question will be next. By the way, here's some fun and interesting stuff that we're up to this week, come check it out. You can find this all on therelicans.com and we've got the internal page over here, and we've got this over here. And then you just have an opportunity daily to communicate this, what feels like a waterfall of work coming out of your team, but getting those daily touchpoints, or maybe weekly to start is a good place to go. MANDO: I love the idea of morning announcements, especially as for specific teams. You assume that a certain size of an org to be able to do this kind of stuff. The place that I'm at right now, there's 4 of us total, so we're not going to be doing this kind of thing. But my last gig, there were thousands of people who worked there and I was in charge of the operations team. JONAN: I actually think the morning news show is a really good way to do that, but you're right that in a smaller team, it's not as relevant. I would argue however, that you're doing it anyway, because with 4 people, you're able to communicate everything that you're all working on all the time. MANDO: That is exactly what happens. JONAN: And you don't have to scale. MANDO: Yeah. JONAN: But it's nice to be bought in on the dream and to feel like you're living your life with purpose and work is a huge part of our lives whether we like it or not. We live in this system and we get to choose every day. I choose to live a life that feels purposeful. I choose to seek meaning because I want to wake up in the morning and be excited to come to work. I want to help lift up the rest of my team so that we're out there making more developers who get to turn this into their dream, which we can't know or predict. I just want to help those people get over the line because I now have desperate it feels on the other side of the fence. I mean, I worked 16-hour days for several years at 5 different jobs and I came home and the world was telling me to live myself up by my bootstraps. You’ve got to be kidding me. That's your American dream? Come on. MANDO: Yeah, I got no more bootstraps. JONAN: Yeah. I want you politician to go and spend 3 hours getting a jug of milk that you pay twice as much as it's necessary for it and have to take two buses to find. I want you to have that experience, how desperate and time consuming and expensive it is to be poor in this country and then lift yourself up by your bootstraps. Because it's not a thing. We have a finite amount of motivation, of will in our day to spend and you've got to make the room. You've got to pay yourself first in that. Get up in the morning and write some code and then go exhaust yourself so your employer gets shortchanged. Your fourth job of the day, they're going to get a little bit less of your time and energy because you gave it to yourself first. That's how you're going to build a wedge to get into tech and I want to be there to help people do that thing. That's what I want to spend the rest of my life doing is making more developers and supporting them as that grow. I mean, I can see dystopia from here. The tech is headed towards a place. MANDO: Oh, yeah. JONAN: We have 1% of people on earth able to program today and we're about to double the global access to high-speed internet. When Starling comes on board – they're launching 70 satellites a month now. When Starlight comes on board, everyone on earth will have access to hopefully low-cost, high-speed internet access. We will double the global audience for many of our services. That's going to be real bad for the world if that 1% who can program and control most of the money in power on the internet becomes half a percent. Historically, that has not worked out great for humanity. So we need to start loosening that up. We need to make more developers yesterday by the thousands, by the millions. We need more people writing this code and helping us to turn this industry into a place that we want to be because the model culture is not going to make it. We will extinct us. We will eliminate humanity whether only the soul or in reality, if we continue down this path where we have a whole bunch of people collected in Valley somewhere, who are defining the rest of the planet. Facebook had no small part in recent revolutions around the world. That's tech. That's us. Whether you want to own it or not, you contributed to the culture and the software that built that monster. REIN: And the other side to making more developers is not having work that chews up and spits out their desiccated husks at a profoundly troubling rate. JONAN: It's true. It’s absolutely true and I think that that's equally, if not more important, that we're not feeding more to the machine. We have toxic spaces in our companies and in our communities and we define them. We need to change them. We need to create better ones. That's, I think a better option, even because you're not going to change that many people's minds. I think that especially this late in the game, for many people—people who have had success with their bad opinions—they continue to spout those bad opinions and believe them. Make a new space. Make a new space and prove it. Show your community, the numbers. If you have another meetup, because the one you're going to has had 18 months of 18 white men speaking and mostly the same people, then make a new meetup and see if the community likes it better and I bet you, they will. I bet you, they'll come. If you build it, they will come. But we got to do the work to make these places better before we just bring people in and watch them suffer. I can't do that anymore. I can't be that person in the world. For a while, I stopped speaking at code schools and bootcamps because I felt like a monster because I knew what I was setting these people up for. I was looking around tech and seeing the poison and I was bringing people, who I genuinely cared about, to the slaughter and I couldn't do it anymore. But I think that now I can do along the way is advise them how to avoid it, what red flags to look out for, how to find the good parts in between, and that's a better approach. It enables me to feel good about my work. MANDO: Yeah. Building up that, I don't want to jump us to reflections yet, but the thing that I keep coming back to is the desire to help your friends. JONAN: Yeah. MANDO: And for me, personally, something that I've been struggling with for a long time now and it's really crystallized over the past, I don't know, year or so, is seemingly how few people have that desire. Maybe not have the desire, I think it's natural to have a desire to want to help your friends. But maybe there's so few people who see everybody as someone who is potentially your friend and someone that you want to help. It's like, they'd be willing to help the person that they hang out with every weekend. But they're going to step over the homeless guy who is standing in front of Target while they walk in. You know what I mean? JONAN: Yeah, and I don't think that they're bad people. Like, I’m not actually a big believer in bad people; I think that there are good misguided people. I don't think there are a whole lot of humans on this earth, with the exception of maybe a handful, who wake up in the morning to do evil. Who wakes up and is like, “Man, today, I'm going to make some real bad days for those around me.” They mostly, I think, believe that they're contributing too good to the world and many of them are very misguided in those attempts, to be clear. There are people actively contributing harm every day, but they don't see it as such. So we have that piece of the conversation and the other part, where I just fail to have empathy for other people, is probably in part about not having good experiences. When I reached out to other people, having a form of attachment in my life, maybe when I was younger, that was traumatic for me. That taught me that I could not trust the world to catch me when I fall; that I couldn't trust other people will be there for me and to show up. Because of that, I had to rely on myself and here I go again on my own. This song I'm off on this walk and it's just me and I need to look out for myself because nobody else will. It's the hurt people hurt people. We saw a church sign when I was driving with my son when he was quite young and he said, “Hurt people hurt people. Why do they want to hurt people so bad?” So internally, in our family, this became a chant: hurt people hurt people instead of hurt people hurt people conversation. But I think the part where we are perpetually enacting our traumas on those around us, because as a society, we've decided that addressing your own traumas, getting your own crap out of the way first is somehow a taboo subject. Like, just go to therapy, people. We just have to put mandatory therapy for people. I want to see a government program that institutes mandatory therapy for people. I'm sure the people will love that. “Oh sure, everyone gets to see a doctor now. I bet you don't want people to die of preventable diseases either?” No, I don't. I want people to get over their collective trauma and stop harming other people because you were harmed and it takes work. Because you got to do the work if you're going to make the world a better place. MANDO: Yeah, I don't know. I personally feel like it's difficult for me when it seems as though the trauma is ongoing. Without this turning into my own therapy session, it makes me sad to see how different I've become over the past year. Is it a year ago? I would've said the same thing that you did, Jonan where I didn't believe that most people were awful monsters hellbent on destroying me and everyone that I love. I don't know so much that I believe that anymore. JONAN: I think JESSICA: They don't think of themselves as monsters. MANDO: Right, right. JESSICA: They may be hellbent on destroying you because they really think that's somehow good are wrong. MANDO: Right. At the end of the day, you're absolutely right, Jessica. How much of that matters? How much of that distinction matters? JESSICA: It does matter. JONAN: I think it does. JESSICA: It matters in what we do about it. JONAN: Yeah. JESSICA: And I don't want to destroy them either. I do want to segregate them off in their own little world. JONAN: Yeah. I love that. MANDO: For me, the ratios make it work in the other direction. JESSICA: Like you want to segregate off in your own little world? MANDO: Well, just that there's way more of them. JESSICA: Oh, okay. MANDO: And so, putting them off someplace would never happen. JONAN: Yeah. I think it's worth noting here that I am a large loud white man speaking from a place of tremendous privilege in that I maybe have experienced less of that “You don't get to exist.” Like, “You're not welcomed here in life in general.” Not even a maybe but that like over my lifetime, very few people have come out to me and just said like, “I wish that you weren't a thing. I wish that you as a human didn't exist on this earth, that you were never born, that your parents were never born.” I've not had that experience. I mean, I have when I've received somehow particular malice from someone usually as a result of my ridiculous jokes. JESSICA: But then it’s personal which yeah. JONAN: But then it’s personal and that’s [inaudible]. People who don't even know me. So yeah, I do. I speak from that position, but I think that this is another – gosh, I'm really not trying to be like let's all come together and have a conversation person because some are too far gone from that. But I think that I'm not ready to give up on humanity as a whole just yet, as much as I'm inclined to. I might be ready to give up on the United States, looking into options overseas. [laughter] REIN: I think for me, the reason this distinction is so important is because when someone claims that there's just evil in the world and these chaotic forces, it decontextualizes people's behavior from ideology, from culture, from socialization, from the worldviews that they have that mediate these behaviors. So I think it's important to understand that people aren't just evil. People have certain worldviews and ideologies and that those manifest in these behaviors. JONAN: And that we built the – JESSICA: Which meant the ideology is evil. JONAN: It makes the ideologies evil. JESSICA: Yeah, which causes the behavior of the people to be evil. That if – [overtalk] JONAN: And these are the systems that we build and perpetuate. JESSICA: Right, exactly and if we keep blaming the people and saying, “There are evil people,” then we will never fix the system. JONAN: Exactly. REIN: The most profound example of this I am aware of and if this is too heavy, we can cut it out of the show is [laughter] when Jordan Peterson claimed that the Nazi's final solution was because they were just evil, chaotic forces. In fact, their worldview demanded it. Their ideology demanded it. JESSICA: Yeah, there was nothing chaotic about that. JONAN: No, it was pretty organized. JESSICA: Yeah. MANDO: Thanks, IBM. JONAN: Yeah. JESSICA: Did you say IBM? MANDO: I said thanks IBM for their efforts. JONAN: And Bosch and every other company, right? MANDO: Yeah. JONAN: I mean, the world would not be able to sustain its current population without the work of Bosch creating nitrogen out of the air and also, then the Nazis used it to get gunpowder when they had no access. So we have a lot of those kinds of systems that we've built over the years and that's absolutely a part of it. You talked about the industries that are involved across these bridges. You don't get to show up to work, team and just be like, “I don't actually care about the impact that I have on humans. I care about the impact that I have on this graph.” You can't be that person anymore if we're going to make it and you can't walk around and point at those people and be like, “Yeah, they were fundamentally flawed from birth.” Whatever that thing means to you, you can't just say like, “Yeah, that person's evil. They probably had bad parenting.” Yeah, maybe they did. But I know a lot of people who had bad parenting or no parenting and turned out okay because they fought their way up that mountain. They overcame it. JESSICA: And they found friends, it helps them. JONAN: Yes. JESSICA: It's not, “Fight your way up the mountain, pull yourself up by your bootstraps.” No, it's, “Keep looking for a better place,” and by place, I mean friend group. JONAN: Yes. Surround yourself with people who genuinely care about you and care about the things that you care about. I wish I'd learned that earlier in my life. Man, I hung out with some people who had different values than I did over the years and I changed my life just by finding a good friend. JESSICA: Yeah. Because we are social animals and we really are the people we're closest to. MANDO: Yeah, absolutely. JESSICA: That's what makes sense with us. That is the world we live in. What was that John Gall quote from earlier? “I respect facts, but I live in impressions.” Especially the default appropriate behavior is whatever the people around us do ad that is what we will fall back to witho

02:15 - David’s Superpower: Being Confused * Norms of Excellence (https://notebook.drmaciver.com/posts/2020-05-31-09:20.html) * The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance (https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Tennis-Classic-Performance/dp/0679778314) 11:56 - Daily Writing * David’s Newsletter: Overthinking Everything (https://drmaciver.substack.com/) * Unfuck Your Habitat (https://www.unfuckyourhabitat.com/) 15:47 - Learning to Be Better at Emotions 23:22 - Achievement and Joy as Aspirational Goals * [Homeostasis vs Homeorhesis](https://wikidiff.com/homeostasis/homeorhesis#:~:text=is%20that%20homeostasis%20is%20(physiology,to%20a%20trajectory%2C%20as%20opposed) * Aspiration: The Agency of Becoming by Agnes Callard (https://www.amazon.com/Aspiration-Agency-Becoming-Agnes-Callard/dp/0190639482) * Seeing like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed by James C. Scott (https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153/ref=sr_1_2?crid=HEYGC212F6SG&dchild=1&keywords=seeing+like+a+state+by+james+c+scott&qid=1613057768&s=books&sprefix=seeing+like+a+state%2Cstripbooks%2C164&sr=1-2) * Philosophical Investigations by Ludwig Wittgenstein (https://www.amazon.com/Philosophical-Investigations-Ludwig-Wittgenstein/dp/1405159286/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1JRUU030WBCWQ&dchild=1&keywords=philosophical+investigations&qid=1613058025&s=books&sprefix=philos%2Cstripbooks%2C209&sr=1-1) Reflections: Jessica: Trying not knowing yourself. Rein: You shouldn’t be the owner of all your desires. Instead, you should measure your life by how well you follow the intentions that arise out of your values. Jacob: Thinking of yourself as the sum of all of the habits you maintain or don’t. David: The [Homeostasis vs Homeorhesis](https://wikidiff.com/homeostasis/homeorhesis#:~:text=is%20that%20homeostasis%20is%20(physiology,to%20a%20trajectory%2C%20as%20opposed) distinction, and cleaning a home as an ongoing process. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: SPONSORED AD: Whether you're working on a personal project or managing enterprise infrastructure, you deserve simple, affordable, and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level. Simplify your cloud infrastructure with Linode's Linux virtual machines and develop, deploy, and scale your modern applications faster and easier. Get started on Linode today with $100 in free credit for listeners of Greater Than Code. You can find all the details at linode.com/greaterthancode. Linode has 11 global data centers and provides 24/7/365 human support with no tiers or hand-offs regardless of your plan size. In addition to shared and dedicated compute instances, you can use your $100 in credit on S3-compatible object storage, Managed Kubernetes, and more. Visit linode.com/greaterthancode and click on the "Create Free Account" button to get started. JACOB: Hello and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 223. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I'm joined with my co-host, Rein Henrichs. REIN: Thanks, Jacob and I'm here with my friend and also stranger because we haven't done this together in months, Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thank you, Rein! And Iím really excited today because our guest is David MacIver. Twitter handle, @DRMacIver. David MacIver is best known as the developer of Hypothesis, the property-based testing library for Python, and is currently doing a Ph.D. based on some of that work. But he also writes extensively about emotions, life, and society and sometimes coaches people on an eclectic mix of software development, intellectual, and emotional skills. As you can probably tell, David hasn't entirely decided what he wants to do when he grows u and that's the best because if you had decided well, then so few possibilities would be open. David, hello! DAVID: Hi, Jessica! Great to be here. JESSICA: All right. I'm going to ask the obligatory question. What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? DAVID: So as you saw me complaining about on Twitter, this question doesn't translate very well outside of the United States. JESSICA: Yeah, which is fascinating for me. DAVID: I'm a bit too British to say nice things about myself without sounding like I'm being self-deprecating. JESSICA: Self-depreciating it is! DAVID: [laughs] So I thought about this one for a while and I decided that the answer is that I'm really good at being confused and in particular, I have a much more productive response to being confused than it seems like most people do because basically, the world is super confusing and I think I never know what's going on, but then I notice that I know what's going on and I look at it and I'm just like, ìHmm, this is weird, right?î And then I read a book about it, or I sort of poke at it a bit and then I'm not less confused, but I'm less confused about that like, one little facet of the world and have found ten new things to be confused about. [laughter] JESSICA: Nice. DAVID: Usually, I can then turn this into being slightly better at the thing I was previously confused about, or writing about it and making everyone else differently confused than they started with. JESSICA: Definitely confused. That is a win. That's called learning. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. [laughter] This is where a lot of the writing you were talking about comes from and essentially, about 2 years ago, I just started turning these skills less on software development and more just going like, ìLife, it doesn't make sense, right?î [laughter] And noticing a whole bunch of things, I needed to work on and then that a lot of these were shared common problems. So I am, if anything, far more confused about all of it than I was 2 years ago, but I'm less confused about the things I was confused about that and seem to be gradually becoming a more functional human being as a result of the process. So yay, confusion. JESSICA: That superpower, the productive response to confusion, ties in with your reaction to the superpower question in general, which is as Americans, we're supposed to be ñ we want to have power. We want to be special. We want to be unique. We want to make our unique contribution to the world! And as part of that, we're not comfortable being confused because we need to know things! We need to be smart! We need to convey strength and competence and be the best! I hate the superlatives. [laughter] I hate the implied competition there, but instead, we could open our hearts to our own confusion and embrace that. Be comfortable being uncomfortable. DAVID: One of the things that often comes up for me is it's a thing that I think is slightly intentioned with this American tendency youíre pointing at, which is that I kind of want to be the best, but I don't really want to be better than other people. I just want to be better than I am now. I wrote a post a while ago about neuromas of excellence like, what would a community look like, which helped everyone be the best version of themselves and one of the top lists was basically that everyone has to be comfortable with not being good at things, but another is just that you have to not want to be better to the other people. You just need want to be better. Again, this is where a lot of the writing comes from. I've just gone, ìWell, this was helpful to me. It's probably helpful to other people.î That's not as sense of wanting to change the world and wanting to put my own stamp on things and it does require a certain amount to self-importance to go, ìYes, my writing is important and other people will like to read it,î but then other people like to read it so, that's fine and if they don't, that's fine, too. JESSICA: Well, you didn't make anyone read it, but you did start a newsletter and let people read it. JACOB: Is this weird thinking reflect a journey that you took in your life? Because I think about my company and my team and how incredibly generous everybody is and even still, I just find it's natural to compare myself to everyone else and needing to not be on the bottom. Part of me wonders if that's just like a natural human tendency, but just because it's natural doesn't make it so. JESSICA: Way natural American. JACOB: Yeah, basically I'm asking how do I stop doing that? [laughter] DAVID: It's definitely not something I've always been perfectly good at. But I think the thing that helped me figure out how to do this was essentially being simultaneously at the bottom of the social rung, but also super arrogant. So it's your classic nerd kit thing, right? It's completely failing at people, but also going, ìBut I'm better than all of you because I'm smart,î and then essentially, gradually having the rough edges filed off the second part and realizing how much I had to learn off the first part. I think sometimes my attitude is due to a lot of this is basically, to imagine I was a time traveler and basically going back in time and telling little David all the things that it was really frustrating that nobody could explain to me and I sadly haven't yet managed to perfect my time machine, but I can still pay it forward. If nobody was able to explain this to me and I'm able to explain it to other people, then surely, the world is a better place with me freely handing out this information. I don't think it's possible, or even entirely desirable to completely eliminate the comparing yourself to others and in fact, I'd go as far as to say, comparing yourself to others is good, but I think theÖ JESSICA: Itís how do we have a productive response to compare ourselves to others? DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. There's a great section in The Inner Game of Tennis, which is a book that I have very mixed feelings about, but it has some great bits where he talks about competition. If you think of a mountain climber, a mountain climber is basically pitting themselves against the mountain, right? They're trying to climb the mountain because it is hard and you could absolutely take a helicopter to the top of the mountain, but that wouldn't be the point. It's you're improving yourself by trying a hard thing. I mean, you're improving yourself in the sense that you're getting better at climbing mountains. You might not be improving yourself in any sort of fully generalizable way. JESSICA: Okay. [laughter] DAVID: When you are playing tennisóbecause this is a book about tennisóyou are engaged in competition with each other and you're each trying to be better than the other. In this context, essentially, what you are doing is you are being the mountain for each other. So you are creating the obstacles that the other people overcome and improve themselves that way and in doing this, you're not just being a dick about it. You're not doing this in order to crush them. You're doing this in order to provide them with the challenge that lets them grow. When you think about it this way, other people being better than you is great because there's this mountain there and you can climb it and by climbing the mountain, you can improve yourself. The thing that stops everyone becoming great is feeling threatened by the being better rather than treating it as an opportunity for learning. JESSICA: Yeah, trying to dynamite the mountain instead of climbing it. Whereas, when you are the mountain for someone else, you can also provide them footholds. Rein, do you have an example of this? REIN: I sure do, Jess. Thanks for asking. So I was just [laughs] thinking while you were talking about this, about the speed running and speed running communities. Because speed running is about testing yourself against a video game, which in this case, serves the purpose of the mountain, but it's also about competing against other speed runners. If it was purely competitive, you wouldn't see the behaviors, the reciprocity in the communities like sharing speed running strats, being really happy when other people break your record. I think it's really interesting that that community is both competitive, but there's also a lot of reciprocity, a lot of sharing. JACOB: And it's like the way the science community should work. It's like, ìOh, you made this new discovery because of this discovery I shared with you and now I'm proud that my discovery is this foundation for all these other little things that now people can be by themselves in 10 seconds instead of 30.î JESSICA: Yeah. Give other people a head start on the confusion you've already had so that they can start resolving new confusions. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely one of my hopes with all of this writing is to encourage other people to do it themselves. Earlier this year, I was getting people very into daily writing practices and just trying to get people to write as much as possible. I now think that was slightly a mistake because I think daily writing is a great thing to do for about a month and then it just gets too much. So I will probably see if I can figure out other ways of encouraging people to notice their confusion, as you say, and share what they've learned from edge. But sadly, can't quite get into do it daily. JESSICA: This morningís newsletter you talked about. Okay, okay, I can do daily writing, but now I want to get better at writing. I've got to go do something I'm worse at. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think daily writing is still a really good transitional stage for most people. To give them more context for this newsletter for people listening. Basically, most of my writing to date, I just write in a 1- or 2-hour sitting from start to finish. I don't really edit it. I just click publish and I've gotten very good at writing like that. I think that most people are ñ I mean, sometimes it's a bit obvious that I haven't edited it because they're obvious typos and the like. But by and large, I think it is a reasonably high standard of writing and I'm not embarrassed to be putting it out in that quality, but the fact that I'm not editing is just starting to be sort of the limiter on growth for me. It's never going to really get better than it currently is. It's certainly not going to allow me to tackle larger projects that I can currently tackle without that editing skill. JESSICA: [laughs] I just pictured you trying to sit down and write a book in one session. [laughter] And then you'd be tired. DAVID: Yeah. I've tried to doing that with papers even and it doesn't really work. I mean, I do edit papers, but Iím very visibly really bad at editing papers and it's one of my weaknesses as a academic is that I still haven't really got the hang of paper writing. JESSICA: Do you edit other people's papers? DAVID: I don't edit other people's papers, but I provide feedback on other people's writing and say, ìThis is what worked for me. This is what didn't work for me. Here are some typos you made.î It's not reading as providing good feedback on things, that is the difficult part of editing for me. It is much more ñ honestly, it's an emotional problem more than anything else. It's not really that I'm bad at editing at a technical level. I'm okay at editing at a technical level. I just hate doing it. [laughs] JESSICA: That is most problems we have, right? DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: In the end, itís an emotional problem. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think that is definitely one of the interesting things I've been figuring out in my last 2 years of working on learning more about emotions and the various skills around them is just going, ìOh, right. It's not this abstract thing where you are learning to be better at emotions and then nothing will change in your life because you're just going to be happier about everything.î I mean, some people do approach it that way, but for me, it's very much been, ìOh, I'm learning to be good at emotions because this really concrete problem that I don't understand, it turns out that that's just feelings.î [laughter] It's like, for example, the literature on how to have a clean home, turns out that's mostly anxiety management and guilt management. It's like fundamentally cleaning your home is not a hard problem. Not procrastinating on cleaning your home is a hard problem. Not feeling intensely guilty and aversive about the dirty dishes in the sink and is putting them off for a week. I don't do that. But just as a hypothetical example. [laughter] I mean, not a hypothetical example, I think a specific example that comes from the book, Unfuck Your Habitat, which is a great example of essentially, it's a book that's about it contains tips, like fill the spray bottle with water and white vinegar and also, tips about how to manage your time and how to deal with the fact that you're mostly not cleaning because of shame, that sort of thing. Writing books are another great example where 80% about managing the feelings associated with writing; it turns out practical problems pretty much all come down to emotionsóat least practical life problems. REIN: Sorry, I was just buying Unfuck Your Habitat real quick. [laughter] DAVID: It's a good book. I recommend it. JESSICA: Our internal like emotional habitat and our external habitat are very linked. You said something earlier about learning to be at emotions is not just you're magically happier at other things in your life change. DAVID: Yes. I mean, I think there are a couple of ways in which it manifests. One of them is just that emotions often are the internal force that maintains our life habits. It's you live in a particular way because moving outside of those trained habits is scary or aversive in some way. Like the cleaning example of how, if your home is a mess, it's not necessarily because you don't know how to make your home not a mess. Although, cleaning is a much harder skill than most people treat it as speaking as someone who is bad at the practical skills of cleaning, as well as the emotional side of cleaning. But primarily, if it were just a matter of scale, you could just do it and get better at it, right? The thing that is holding you in place is the emotional reaction to the idea of changing your habits. So the specific reason why I started on all of this process was essentially relationship stuff. I'd started a new major relationship. My previous one hadn't gone so well for reasons that were somewhere between emotional and communication issues, for the same reason basically every relationship doesn't go so well, if it doesn't go so ñ Oh, that's not quite true. Like there are actual ñ JESSICA: Some people have actual problems. [chuckles] But these things are. I mean, our emotions really, as sometimes we treat them as if they're flaws. As if our emotions are getting in our way is some sort of judgment about us as not being good people, but no, it just makes us people. DAVID: For sure. JESSICA: So you started on this journey because of the external motivation of helping someone you're in a relationship with, because it's really hard to do these things just for ourselves. DAVID: It is incredibly hard to do things just for ourselves. I guess, that is exactly an example of this problem, right? It's that there is a particular habit of life that I was in and what I needed to break out of that habit of life was the skills for dealing with it and then figuring out these emotional reactions. But unfortunately, the thing that the habits were maintaining, it was me not having the skills and so having the external prompts of a problem that was in the world rather than in my life, as it was, was what was needed to essentially kick me out of that. Fortunately, it turns out that my standard approach of reading a thousand books now was one that worked for me, in this case. I probably haven't read a thousand books on this, but that certainly worked. JESSICA: It wouldnít surprise me. [laughs] DAVID: I read fewer books than people think I do. I may well have read more than a hundred books about emotions and therapy and the like. But I probably haven't, unless I cast that brush really broadly, because I mean, everything's a book about emotions and therapy, if you look at your right. REIN: Have you read any books by average Virginia Satir? [laughter] DAVID: I don't know who that is, I'm afraid. JACOB: Drink! REIN: Excellent! Excellent news. [laughter] JESSICA: Itís about Virginia Satir, right? REIN: Virginia was a family therapist who wrote a lot about processing emotions and I have been a huge fan of her work and it's made a huge difference in my life and my career. So I highly recommend it. DAVID: Okay. I will definitely hear recommendations on books. What's the book title, or what's your favorite book title by? REIN: I think I would start with The Satir Model, which is S-A-T-I-R M-O-D-E-L. The Satir Model, which is about her family therapy model. JESSICA: Chances are good, you've read books based on her work. I was reading Gerry Weinberg's Quality Software Management: Volume Two the other day, which is entirely based on The Satir Model. REIN: Yeah. He was a student of hers. One of the things that she likes to say is that the problem is never the problem, how we cope is the problem. JESSICA: Can we have a productive response to the problem? DAVID: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. I think often, the problem is also the problem. [laughter] JESSICA: It's often self-sustaining like the habits you're talking about. Our life habits form a self-sustaining system and then it took that external stimulus. It's not like an external stimulus somehow kicked you in the butt and changed you, it let you change yourself. DAVID: Yes, absolutely. I guess what I mean is ñ so let's continue with the cleaning example. The problem is that your flat is messy and your flat is messy because of these life habits, because your emotional reactions to all these things. If you do the appropriate emotional work, you unblock yourself on shame and anxiety around a messy flat, and you look around and you've saw you've processed all these emotions. You fixed how you respond to the problem and it turns out your flat is still messy and you still have to clean it. I think emotional reactions are what either ñ Iím making it sound like emotional reactions are all negative and I really don't mean that. I mean, that way is just ñ JESSICA: Oh, right because once you've dealt with all that shame and the anxiety and stuff, and maybe you've picked up your flat some, and then you come in and you have groceries and you stop and you immediately put them away and you get a positive, emotional feeling from that as you're in the process of keeping your flat tidy. The emotions can reinforce a clean flat as well. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is something that has always been one of my goals more than it is what am I active? JESSICA: No, I love this distinction that you're making here. Is it a goal or is it something I'm activelyÖ? The word goal is [inaudible]. DAVID: Yeah. So I think for me, one of the other problems, other than the relationships it starts, was me essentially realizing that my emotional experience, it wasn't bad. I mean, it wasn't great, but I wasn't actively miserable most of the time, but it also just didn't have very many positive features, which it turns out is also a form of depression. It's very easy to treat depression as just like you're incredibly sad all the time, but that doesn't have to what it can be like flatness is. So I think very much from early on in my mind was that the getting better at emotions wasn't just about not being anxious. It was also about experiencing things like joy, it was about being happier and I think having this as sort of an aspirational goal is very, very motivating in terms of a lot of this work and in terms of a lot of trying to understand all of this, because I think I don't want to be miserableóit only gets you so far. If you have a problem that you're trying to solve, and that turns out to be an emotional block, you have to actually wants to solve the problem. It's like, I think if you don't want to clean the flat, then it doesn't matter how much you sort of fix your anxiety around that. You're still just going to go, ìOkay. I'm no longer anxious about this messy flat. That's great,î and your flat is going to stay messy because you don't actually want it not to be and that's fine. JESSICA: Itís just fine, yeah. Who cares? Especially now. DAVID: Unless it becomes a health hazard, but yeah. [laughter] DAVID: Certainly like thereís ñ JESSICA: If you're affecting the neighboring flats with your roaches, thatís fine. DAVID: [laughs] Yeah. JESSICA: So you were talking about joy as an aspirational goal, but it's not the kind of goal where you check the box at the end of the year and declare yourself worthy of a 2% raise. DAVID: [laughs] No, absolutely not and I think for all big goals, really, I find that I want to be very clichÈ and say, it's the journey, not the destination. JESSICA: But it is! No, it totally is! DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: See, the word goal really irks me because people often use it to mean something that you should actually reach. Like write every day per month, that's a goal that you find benefits from hitting, but feelings of joy are, as you said, aspirational. I call it a quest, personally. Some people call it a North Star. It is a direction that can help you make decisions that will move you in that direction, but if you ever get thereÖ No, that doesn't make sense. You wouldn't want to exist in a perpetual state of joy. That would also be flat. [laughs] DAVID: No, absolutely. And I think even with big but achievable goals, it still is still quite helpful to treat them in this way. So for one, quite close to my heart right now, a goal of doing a Ph.D. I think you've got a 3-, 4-year long project in the States, I think it's more like 5 or 6 and if you treat the Ph.D. as it's pass/fail, like either you get the Ph.D. or those 3 or 4 years have been wasted, then that's not very motivating and also will result in, I think, worst quality results in work. Like the thing to do is ñ JESSICA: Like anxiety, stress, and shame. DAVID: Yeah. Yeah, very much so. [chuckles] So just thinking in terms of there's this big goal that you're trying to achieve of the Ph.D., but the goal doesn't just define a pass/fail; it defines a direction. Like if you get better at paper writing in order to get your Ph.D., then even if you don't get your Ph.D., you got better at paper writing and that's good, too. JESSICA: Because the other outcome is the next version of you. DAVID: Yes, exactly. JESSICA: Itís about who does this aspirational goal prompt you to become? REIN: This reminds me of the difference between homeostasis and homeorhesis. Homeostasis is about maintaining a state; homeorhesis is about maintaining a trajectory DAVID: That makes sense. Yes, very much that distinction and also, one of the nice things about this focus on a trajectory is that even if a third of the way through the trajectory, you decide you don't want to maintain it anymore and actually you're fine where you are. This goal was a bad idea or you've got different priorities now, possibly because a global pandemic has arrived and has changed all of your priorities. Then you still come all that way. It's like the trajectory doesn't just disappear backwards in time because you're no longer going in that direction. You've still made all that progress. Youíve still got to drive some of the benefits from it. JESSICA: Yeah. There's another thing that maybe it's an American thing, or maybe it's wider than that of if it doesn't last forever, then it was never real, or if you don't achieve the stated goal, then all your effort was wasted. DAVID: Yeah. I don't think itís purely an American thing. It's hard to tell with how much American pop culture permeates everything and also, I shouldn't say that although I'm quite British, I am also half American. So Iím a weird third culture kid where my background doesn't quite make sense to anyone. But yeah, no, I very much feel that. This idea that permanence is required for importance and it's something that every time I sort of catch myself there, I'm just like, ìYeah, David, you're doing the thing again. Have you tried not doing the thing?î [chuckles] But it's hard. It's very internalized. JESSICA: If you clean your flat and a week later, it's dirty again. Well, it was clean for a week. That's not nothing. DAVID: Yeah. I do genuinely think that one of the emotions that people struggle with cleaning. Certainly, it is for me. JESSICA: Oh, because it's a process. It is not a destination. Nothing is ever clean! DAVID: Yeah. JACOB: I think of myself sometimes as I want to be the kind of person that always has a clean home, as opposed to, I like it when my house is clean. JESSICA: Yeah. Is it about you or is it about some real effect you want? JACOB: Yeah. Is it about like the story that that I imagine I could project if I could project on Instagram because I'm taking pictures of my pristine house all the time, or is it just like, I like to look around and see things where they belong? DAVID: Yeah. I'm curious, does this result in your home being clean? JACOB: No, it doesnít and thatís sort of the issue that I'm just realizing is it's not actually a powerful motivator because it's just not possible trying to imagine that I could maintain homeostasis about it. It's not a possible goal and so yeah, it's not going to happen. REIN: Yeah. The metaphor here is it changes motion, but it's always happening so it's more like the flow of time than motion through space. JESSICA: Itís not motion, too. REIN: Actually staying the same is very hard to do and very expensive. DAVID: Absolutely. JESSICA: No wonder it takes all of our feelings to help us achieve it. [chuckles] DAVID: So the reason I was asking by the way about whether this idea of being the sort of person who has a clean home is effective is that this ties in a little bit to what today's newsletter was about. There's this problem where when you have self-images that are constructed around being good at particular things, being bad at those things is very much, it's a shame trigger. It's essentially, you experienced the world as clashing with your conception of yourself and we get really good at not noticing those things. You see this a lot with procrastination, for example, where you are putting off doing a thing because it does force you to confront this sort of conflict between identity and reality. I think sometimes, the way out of it is just to identify less with the things that we want to achieve in the world and just try and go, ìI'm doing this because I want to and if I didn't want to, that would be fine, too.î Essentially, becoming fine with both an outcome and failing to achieve that outcome is often the best way to achieve the outcome. JESSICA: So practicing editing in order to practice editing, whether you achieve writing a book or not, whether you're good at it or not, and it does come back to the journey. If what you're doing is a means to an end and yet not in line with that end, it often backfires because the means are the end. In the end, they become it. So having a clean house is stupid. That's not a thing. Picking up is a thing. That's something you can do and what I am picking up. True fact! [laughs] You don't have to worry about whether you can, are you doing it? All right then, you can! Whereas, having a clean house is not a thing. DAVID: Very much. This kind of ties into the comments about books earlier, where you were talking about how many books I read, and one of the things that I think very much stops people from reading books is the idea that oh God, there are so many books to read, I'll never get through all of them. JESSICA: If I started, I have to finish it. DAVID: Oh, yeah. I mean, people definitely shouldn't do that; books are there to be abandoned if they're bad. JESSICA: I read a lot of chapter ones. DAVID: Yeah. I have a slightly bad habit of buying books speculatively because they seem good and as a result, I think my shelf of books that I'm probably never going to get around to read, but might do someday and might not and either is fine is probably like a hundred plus books now. JESSICA: I love that shelf. I have big piles everywhere. [laughs] There's always something to read wherever I sit and most of it, I will never read, but it's beautiful. DAVID: I'm currently in a very weird experience where I write, for possibly the first time in my life, I have more bookshelf space than books. JESSICA: Huh, that's not a stable state. DAVID: No, no. This will be fixed by the time I leave this flat. The piles will return. JESSICA: You will maintain the trajectory. DAVID: Yeah. [laughs] Because I'm just reading. I can read these as many books because I just sit down and read and at some point, I will finish a book or I will abandon the book and both are fine. But I think if you treat this as a goal where your goal is to read all the books, then that's not the thing and also, I think people go, ìMy goal is to read a hundred books a year,î or I don't know how normal people guesstimates are. JESSICA: Itís like, is it really or itís their goal to learn something. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. JESSICA: And the means is reading books. DAVID: Yeah. I think if one instead just goes, ìI like reading and it's useful so I'm going to read books,î you'll probably end up reading a lot more than setting some specific numerical goal. Also, you run into sort of Goodhart's law things where if your goal is to read a hundred books in a year, great buy the Mr. Men set. But wait, it's not a thing in ñ the Mr. Men are a series of kidsí books which tells ñ JESSICA: With the big smiley face? DAVID: Yeah. Exactly, that's the one. [laughter] You can read a hundred of those in a weekóI assume there are hundred Mr. Men books, I don't actually knowóand youíll probably learn something. JESSICA: Then again, you might choose Dynamics in Action, never get through it, and then feel bad about it, and that would be pointless because you learned more from the introduction than you did from the Mr. Men series. DAVID: I don't think I've even opened my copy of Dynamics in Action. I think you recommended on Twitter or something and I was just like, ìThat does sound interesting. I will speculatively buy this book.î JESSICA: It's a hard book. DAVID: Yeah. It's far from the hardest book on my shelves, but it's definitely in the top. I'm going to confidently say top 20, but it might be harder than that. I just haven't done a comparative analysis and I don't want to overpromise. [laughter] JESSICA: The point being read books because you want to know. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: Or sometimes because you want to have read them. That's the thing. There's a lot of things I may not want to pick up, but I do want to have picked up and I can use that to motivate me. DAVID: Yeah, and even then, there are two versions of that and both are good, actually. I think one of them sounds bad. One version is you want to have read it because you want to understand the material in it and the other one is just, you want to be able to say that you have read it and thus, you ñ and probably for the status game and also, just sort of as a box ticking, like I think ñ JESSICA: Oh, itís not completely wrong. DAVID: No, it's not completely wrong. JESSICA: You still get something out of it. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: On the other hand, if you want to read it because you want to be the kind of person who would read it. I don't know about that one. DAVID: Yeah, I agree. I thinkÖ JESSICA: Then again, life habits. Sometimes, if you want to be the kind of person who picks up and so you fake it long enough to form the habit, then you are. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely and I read a book recentlyóof course, I didóby Agnes Callard called Aspiration, which I'm glad I read it. I cannot really recommend it to people who aren't philosophers, because there's a thing that often happens with reading analytic philosophy, where the author clearly has a keen insight into an important problem that you, as the reader, lack and the way they express that insight is through an entire bookís worth of slightly pedantic arguments with other analytic philosophers who have wrong opinions about the subjects. JESSICA: Half of Dynamics in Action is like that. DAVID: Yeah, I think it very complicated. REIN: Was it written as a thesis? DAVID: I don't think so. I'm not certain about that, but it might've been. It ended up being quite an influential book and I think she was mentioning that there's going to be a special issue of a journal coming out to recently about essentially, its impact and responses to it. But I think it's just genuinely that analytic philosophers had a lot of really wrong opinions about this subject. So the relevance of this is the idea she introduces the book is that of a proleptic value where ñ JESSICA: Proleptic, more words. DAVID: Proleptic basically, I think originally comes from grammar and it means something that stands in place for another thing. A proleptic value is what you do when you're engaged in a process of aspiration, which is trying to acquire values that you don't currently have. So she uses the example of a music student who wants to learn to appreciate the genre of music that they do not currently appreciate and they find a teacher who does appreciate that genre and they basically use their respect for that teacher as a proleptic value. They basically say, ìI don't currently value this genre of music, but I trust your judgment and I value your opinion and I will use your feedback and that respect for you as a value that stands in place of the future value of appreciating this genre of music that I hope to acquire.î So I think this thing of reading a book because you want to be the sort of person who reads that kind of book can have a similar function where even though, you don't really wants to read the book, that process of aspiration gives you a hook into becoming the sort of person who does want to read the book. JESSICA: That's like being the mountain for each other. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: In some ways. You're not going to get a view yet. You're only 10 feet off the ground, but meanwhile, just climb to climb because it's here. DAVID: Yeah. I'm not necessarily very good at being the sort of person reading books for this reason. Partly because there are so many books, I have so many other reasons to read, but yeah. JESSICA: Yeah, you're fine. You don't need more reasons to read a book. DAVID: [laughs] But I think two books that I have read mostly to have read them rather than necessarily because I was having an amazing time and learning lots of things reading them are Seeing Like a State by James Scott, which it's a good book. I don't think it's a bad book, but it is very much a history book that also has a big idea and there are like 70,000 blog posts about the big idea. So if you're going and wanting just the big idea, read one of the blog posts, but I'd seen a reference so many times and I was just like, ìYou know, this seems like a book that I should rate,î and my opinion is now basically that like, if you like history books and if you want lots of detail, then yeah, it's a great book to read. If you just want the big idea, donít. JESSICA: Right, because other people have presented it more succinctly, which probably happens with your Aspiration book that you talked about. DAVID: I would like it to happen with the Aspiration book. The Aspiration book is only a few years old. JESSICA: You've written a ñ oh, okay, so it's too soon for that. So you'll write about it, if you haven't yet. DAVID: Yeah, I havenít yet. Looking at it, it was published in 2018 and you have the paperback from 2019. So this is really cutting-edge philosophy to the degree that there is such a thing. [chuckles] JESSICA: Yeah. Oh no, what do you mean? [inaudible]. REIN: Seeing Like a State is. DAVID: Well, I've had this argument with philosopher friends where I was arguing that it was a thing and the philosopher friend was just like, ìIs it a thing, though?î Because the interesting thing about philosophy is just that it never goes out to date. People are sort of engaging with the entire historical cannon so the question is not does new philosophy get done? The question is more, I think is this less ñ? JESSICA: This isnít really a cutting edge. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. JESSICA: Itís more kind of a gentle nuzzling. DAVID: [laughs] Yeah. But also, is this more cutting edge than, I don't know, reading Aristotle's Nicomachean ethics? I don't know. JESSICA: Philosophy [inaudible]. DAVID: Yeah, I personally think that there is cutting-edge and this is on it, but plenty of room for philosophical dialogue on that subject if you can sort of dig Socrates up and ask him about it. [laughter] Yeah, and speaking of philosophy, the other book that I have read essentially to have read it rather than because I was getting a lot out of it was Wittgensteinís Philosophical Investigations where I essentially read it in order to confirm to myself that I had already picked up enough Wittgenstein by osmosis that I didn't really need to read it, which largely true. JACOB: This is the part of the show where we like to reflect on what we took from everything and just wrap things up a little bit. JESSICA: I have one thing written down. We talked a bit about who you are and who you want to be as a person, and how sometimes what you want to do is in conflict with how you think of yourself. Like, when you think of yourself as good at something, it's hard to be bad at it, long enough to learn better. It occurs to me that in our society, we're all about getting to know yourself and then expressing your true self, which is very much a homeostasis more than a homerhesis. But what have we tried not knowing yourself? What if we tried just like, I don't know who I am and then I can surprise myself and have more possibilities. That's my reflection. REIN: All of this discussion about happiness and pleasure, and diversion and striving reminds me a lot of Buddhist philosophy, or what I should say is, it reminds me a lot of my very limited understanding of Buddhist philosophy. Specifically, this idea that you shouldn't judge your life by the outcome of your preferences; that you shouldn't identify yourself with your wants and cling to the outcome of things. You can acknowledge that these things have happened and you can avoid unpleasant things, but you shouldn't be the owner of all of your desires. Instead, what you should do is measure your life by how well you follow the intentions that arise out of your values. JACOB: Yeah. Maybe to put another way, I'm starting to think maybe I could think of myself as the sum of all of the habits I maintain or don't, and try to think of outcome of those habits as what a lagging indicator, I guess, or as a secondary and think more of myself like, ìWell, what are the things that I find I am naturally doing and if I'm not, what can I do to just try to enforce it for myself that I'm going to do that more?î Or maybe I don't care. DAVID: So I'm not finding myself with sort of a single cohesive summation of the conversation, but I've really enjoyed it and there's been a couple of things I'm going to take away from it and mull over a bit more. I really liked the homeostasis versus homeorhesis distinction. I'd obviously heard the first word, but not the second word and so, I'm going to think about that a bit more. Sort of tying onto that, I very much liked Jessica's point of how a clean home isn't really a thing, you can only do cleaning and thinking much more in terms of the ongoing process than trying to think of it as a static goal that you are perfectly maintaining at all times. Slightly orthogonal in relation to that, but I'm also just going to look up Satir as an author and maybe read some of her books. [chuckles] REIN: Yay! DAVID: Because as we have established, always up for more reading. [laughs] JACOB: That should wrap up our Episode 223. I'd like to thank David for joining us and weíll see you next time. Special Guest: David MacIver.

It's a new year and nobody should have to listen to more mindless drivel about goal setting, resolutions, checklists, 10 things you need to do with a budget, and 18 things you can do in January to solve all your money troubles. Here's how you change your life and make it last. LISTENER QUESTIONS: IN THE BAND: I just paid off a credit card that had a balance of $4,000 for over 10 years (Jessica) It’s 2021 and I've already maxed out HSA and Roth IRA. What next? (Andrew, Facebook) What are your thoughts on Bitcoin (Pete, Facebook) TOPICS: Please send me your cat pictures. ===== Schools Don't Teach About Money. Make Sure Your Child Doesn't End Up A Money Moron. Click To Learn More: https://bestmoneyacademy.com/?utm_source=libsyn

This week I had the pleasure of talking to Jessica Reis, who has written an anthology with three of her friends. For our chat, we talked about how they did it, how it came together, and how anyone might do the same.Here are some lessons learned from Jessica:It helps to have every participating writer in one group. Jessica and her friends created a Facebook group where they could help one another, give one another feedback, and ask questions.It's a group effort, so pick the name together, choose the cover together, etc.Treat one another with respect, especially when you beta read for one another. Should tensions arise, talk about them and be understanding.Ask people to collaborate who you believe in and who believe in you, and ask people who write in the same genre as you.***Come join The Writing Sparrow on its very own Facebook fan page or its very own Instagram account!To find out more about Jessica, check out her website or follow her on Instagram.Find out more about Sarina and her books on her website, and find her on Instagram and on Facebook.Support the show

The Passionsitas Project welcomes Jessica Craven from Chop Wood, Carry Water. Jess gives phonebank training and chats about ways to get involved in the final weeks leading up to the November 3 election. Jessica Craven is a community organizer, activist and member of the California Democratic party's County Central Committee. Jessica is the author of "Chop Wood, Carry Water," a daily actions e-mail that's been published five days a week since November of 2016. Her emails provide detailed text and scripts for the everyday person to reach out to their Congress people and Senators to take action on the important issues of the day. She's made it her mission to get regular people more involved with politics on both a federal and local level. Hear Jessica's full episode here. FULL TRANSCRIPT: Passionistas: Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Um, anybody who's been reading our posts, especially lately knows how anxiously I have been about the election and where things are headed. And, uh, our guardian angel spirit guide in this entire process has been our guests today. Uh, Jessica Craven, who does an amazing newsletter, um, which is how we first were introduced to her. It's called chalkboard carry water. We'll let her tell you about that, but it gives you daily actions so that you can be involved politically and make a difference. And, um, and then when we did our summit in August, uh, we asked just to do a workshop that she has called activism one Oh one, and it was an incredible hour where she gave us all these different things that we could do to be involved and help, um, make a difference during the election period. And we had been doing them tirelessly. We've been writing letters, we've been sending postcards. Uh, we have been texting, they've done everything but calling cause we're still a little shy, introverted when it comes to that, but just assures us that even introverts could make calls. So she's going to tell us about that today and a bunch of other things. We're just going to talk with her about what we can all do in the six weeks, 39 days. I think that we have left, um, to make a difference. And she's going to maybe talk a few of us off the Lake, um, anxiety and nervousness, no pressure. Um, but so welcome to our group today, Jessica grade. Jessica Craven:  Thank you. Thank you for having me. Um, thanks both of you. Passionistas: You've been such wonderful advocates and, uh, this is a great group and I'm very glad to be here. And, uh, yeah. Do you want me to start by just talking about the thing that Nancy and I were talking about before we started? Jessica: Okay, well, you know, we, Nancy was saying that she was having some anxiety and I think that a lot of people were having a lot of anxiety because of the news is extremely anxiety provoking right now. And, uh, I was just saying simply that I, my tactic right now is just to stay very, very, very busy. Um, I feel that there is an enormous amount of fear-mongering happening in the news right now. And there is a, um, you know, there is a payoff for Trump and for his side, when we are all freaking out and running around, um, you know, wringing our hands about the fact that he is going to steal the election, because every minute that I'm doing that, I am working to get out the vote. And honestly, I see what's happening right now is a very successful form of voter suppression. They are very successfully getting people to feel like it's hopeless and we're gonna lose cause he's already going to steal the election. And so what's the point. And in that sense, he's a giant bully who is successfully bullying the entire school yard right now with a threat that he can't even possibly carry out. And I know that people read the Atlantic article and I know that people feel that he's going to get all these people to sort of line up and do these horrible things to, um, and I just am not, I'm not there. I actually still have enough faith in the American system as a whole, although parts of it are very broken right now. Um, and I, I subscribed to this wonderful writer or Hubbell who writes a political, uh, newsletter every night. And, um, you know, he, he said exactly this this morning, he was like, it's quite frustrating to see people so quickly buy into this kind of, you know, Trump says all kinds of things. He says insane things all the time. And like, I never believed anything that he says. So I don't know why we're all believing this part so much that he is going to successfully organize a coup right in front of us, that the entire country will participate in, um, or enough to carry it out successfully. It's I have a very sort of, you know, my, my spiritual practice is such that what I, what I have learned to do no matter what is happening in my life that is troubling or scary is to stay in the day and do the thing in front of me that I can do. And that's where the Chop Wood Carry Water comes from is just instead of freaking out about something that might happen in six weeks. Um, what can I do right now? And, and frankly, I'm distressed at the level to which his tactics right now are successful. I'm distressed at how many people I see who normally would be busy making calls right now who have spent their entire days sending frantic emails back and forth about is he going to still be election? Well, yeah, he's going to win the election if we don't work. So work. You know, I mean, as I try to remind people, if Trump were this able to steal an election, he would not have, let us win. In 2018, we would not have won Doug Jones's seat in the Senate. We would not have won the governor seats. We won last year, we flipped to Virginia state house. We flipped essentially the New York state house, although they were Democrats, but they caucused with Republicans. We got them all out. Like we have voted so many bad actors out and nobody, one time has said, Oh, that election wasn't valid. Sorry, people accept the results of an election. Trump won't. But Trump is a malignant narcissist. He's insane. So who cares? I mean, he he's, I won't even begin to list the delusions that guy lives under, but there are a lot of people who would have to cooperate with him. And I fundamentally don't believe they will. Um, and, and whether or not okay, even if they will, there's nothing we can do about it now. But what we can do is wind so overwhelmingly that that's not even a possibility. And if our numbers are enormous, which they absolutely can be, we absolutely have the numbers for it. All indications are that early voting is overwhelmingly on our side. So just keep it up. Don't let this total loser, baby man distract you from saving the country. He's seen, does not work the gum on the bottom of my shoe. This man and people are giving entire days and weeks to worrying about what he's going to do, who cares? He's a loser, the guy is a loser. So let's just make sure that we have so many votes that even he, with his total delusions and delusions of grand jury or whatever else he has cannot lie. I keep thinking of the inauguration crowds. You know, he said over and over again, that it was the biggest inauguration crowd ever, but history and all of us know that it wasn't. So he can say we're all cheating or we're all, but everybody else will know that that's not the case. And frankly, I don't think that the military is so behind them at this point that they're going to enable him in a coup it's just not going to happen. So sorry. I'm very passionate about this because my job is to recruit people into action. My job is to get people busy making phone calls, which is a proven tactic for winning elections, right? Sending letters, sending postcards, texts, making these things work. And when people are wringing their hands in this kind of like fear mania, they're not doing that. So I just got off the phone with, I mean, often about call with flip the West with their team of people who were working to flip the Senate. It's an enormous team of people who are so committed and working so hard. Don't let all of these people work so hard and then give all of our attention to the, the ninny and the white house instead, you know, come and join us in the work. We will win in the work. So that is my sermon. Sorry. I'm just drinking my tea. So I'm very thankful. Passionistas: It's, no, it's excellent. We need to hear it. Yeah. We need to hear it, everybody already saying great advice and thank you. Jessica: It is true. I mean, I wake up every day, I feel like totally panicked. And then I go through the list in my head like, Oh, am I freaked out about this? Now this now I'm going to go, Oh, to see a lecture. And then I roll out of bed and I pick up my posts in my list and I just start writing and I wait until I can get onto the texting. And I start flexing and I feel better, you know? Yeah. Action is the antidote. And it is every time. And you know, I'm doing these activism one-on-one classes. And so many people were coming, which is great. So part of my job is just to let other people know how many people are doing this work right now. So w in my workshop, you know, you heard me talk about the drop of water, right. And it's very easy for us all to feel like that individual drop of water, like, Oh, who cares? I'm just, I'm so small. And if I just make like one hour of calls, who cares, like it's so insignificant, but you have to remember all the other drops of water who are also doing their little jobs. And when you get that many drops of water together, that's, as I say, when you start to carve stone, like then you are participating in something so much bigger than yourself. And there are a lot of people doing this work. I am telling you because I do it with them. And I see them. And I hear about the groups that are phone banking and post carding and sending letters to voters in Milwaukee and just little groups that have got brilliant ideas for ways to help and are doing them. And, uh, the news doesn't talk about it. And I remember before 2018, the news didn't talk about it either. I was like, am I crazy? Because I feel like with this much stuff happening, we are going to win, but everyone keeps saying we're going to lose, but I see what people are doing. How could we possibly lose? And we weren't. Right. But the news is not going to say, Oh, we're going to win because that doesn't get clicks. And we, these little, you know, we middle-aged women, activists, we definitely don't get clicks. Right? Like nobody cares about us. We're middle-aged women. But the work that we're doing is massive. And we are going to save the country. Don't get me wrong. That is what is going to happen. And the news will not carer until after it's happened. And then they'll give the credit somewhere else because no one wants to credit people like us, but it doesn't matter. We're not doing it for the credit. We're doing it for. Right. Right. So who cares? But believe me, I remember this from 2018, no one covered the resistance back then either, even after the fact, no one covered us, but it's fine. We're still going to do the work and we're still going to win. You can attribute it to the tooth fairy for all I care. I don't really care, but we are doing the work and we know how to do this work. And let me tell you, people are doing this work in vast numbers. So, but that's not what I came here to talk about. I came here to talk about phone banking, but I just, you know, I get passionate because it's important. I want to wear a big t-shirt that just says less news, less news, more action. Because honestly, even I can get sucked into Twitter. And after five minutes on Twitter, I want to kill myself. It's over. Right. But that's not reality. That's Twitter. And there's, uh, you know, there are aspects of reality on it, but there's also a lot that is not real on it. The work is real, you know, talking to voters on the phone is real. I've phoned banks several times already this week. And when I get someone on the phone who was like on the fence and I convinced them, that's real. And, uh, you know, you guys and the people doing this work, we are real. And we, we will make a difference. So I guess I'm here to do the opposite of what Trump is doing today, right? Like I want to power people and give them their faith back and remind them that they have power. And that, you know, you have agency, you can make a difference. Every single person listening to this, it's hugely powerful. Don't let Trump take that away from you. He doesn't deserve to have anything of yours. Nothing. Passionistas: Thank you. I needed to, I needed to hear that. Thank you. Thank you. I had one other question for you about something I read this morning. Did you read that Esquire magazine article about, um, maybe people who can, should vote in person? Jessica: I didn't. Okay. Passionistas:  Because it was just saying that it was just that, you know, this whole, his whole scam right now is based on, you know, mail in votes and de-legitimizing the mail in votes. So what do you think about that? Do you think it it's better? If people can take the chance and go boat in person, is it better to mail it in person? Passionistas: I don't know. I think that I know in California, we were told that if we mailed our ballots by October 10th, that they would be counted by election day. Um, but again, we've had so many elections where the results were not determined for weeks after and nobody cried foul. No one said that election is not valid. Katie Porter, her election was determined like two weeks after the fact, no, she's there in Congress kicking . I mean, Trump can say what he wants. It requires more than him saying that something is fraudulent. And frankly, I really don't see Mitch McConnell as awful as he is. He's he made a statement today saying like, we're going to respect the results of the election. He's not going to go down that road. I just don't. I mean, so I think vote, however you feel I'm voting by mail. I'm going to mail my ballot right after I get it. And I'm going to track my ballot. Just vote. I don't think when we vote is as much at issue. If it makes you feel better. Sure. Go vote in person. Most States have early voting. We go to the grocery store. I don't actually think that voting is like a super dangerous activity. But if you're someone who's highly at risk vote by mail. Yeah. I don't think it matters. Just vote, vote and track your ballot, make a voting plan and get three friends and family to vote. Especially those who probably wouldn't have voted unless you prompted them. Because honestly your friends and family are more likely to vote. If you ask them to then if I, some stranger calls them, you know, this is relational organizing. It's really critical right now that we each take responsibility for getting three people who maybe wouldn't have voted otherwise to vote. I'm working on my niece. That's my, that's my goal. No, she's one person who is right now is thinking of writing into candidate and I'm working on her with everything I know to get her not to do that. And it doesn't matter the reasons, this is just really important to me. And if I fail, I'll work on someone else. But if we all do that, think about the power of that. Passionistas: You bring up a good point too, which is you can track your ballot once you send it. And everybody should do that just to… Jessica: Not in every state, not in every state. Sorry to interrupt you. But in many States you can. Yes. Yes. Passionistas: Okay. And where do you find, where do you go to do that? Jessica: Secretary of State website? The secretary of state website is really your friend. You just Google your state secretary of state, and then all of your questions are, are, can be answered there. So, and yes, in California, they make it very easy to sign up where you can actually, you'll all get a text message when they received my ballot and the text message when it's been, um, you know, entered into the system. So I don't know that every state does it as well, but look into your state and find out. And another really important thing about voting by mail is to follow the instructions very carefully. Yes. Yeah. If you sign, if you sign in the wrong place or you sign your signature sloppily and it doesn't match what they have on record, or you don't steal the inside envelope or whatever it is, you do wrong. That vote will be disqualified. So I need to make sure that you follow the directions very carefully. Well, and in Pennsylvania, in particular with this whole naked ballot thing, if you mail in your vote by mail ballot, put it in the inner envelope, because if you don't put it in that inner envelope, the secrecy sleeve, they will not count it, which is absurd. But you know, we have to work with a lot of servers right now. So yes. Being educated about what the rules are in your state is incredibly important. Passionistas: Particularly if you live in a swing state or voter suppression state, right? Jessica: Yeah. And like, I'm going to, I'm getting together with some elderly relatives. I told them once they get their vote, that we're going to go to lunch, we're going to take a risk and you go to an outdoor restaurant and I'm going to walk them through it. I'm going to make friends to do it exactly. Right. And then we're going to go wherever they can go to drop it off. We're going to drive there with them. We're going to make sure. Passionistas: So if you know anybody that might not, you don't think a hundred percent is going to understand the process because it's so different than what they used to offer to help them. Jessica: Yep. Yes, absolutely. That is exactly right. Yeah. And elderly people. Don't always, a lot of times when we phone bank, we'll find someone who has, you know, 81 years old. Yes. I want to provide them, but I don't have internet. I mean, not everybody has internet. Right. Um, and so those people need, sometimes some of them to show up at their door with a form or, you know, help ordering the form for them and having it sent to them or whatever. But yes, I think we all need to think of the older people, the less tech savvy people and reach out to them. Passionistas: Yeah. Yeah. And as Lisa said in the comments, also, if you add a stamp, even though a lot of votes on ballots, don't require a stamp. If you add a stamp, it will make sure that it's treated as first-class mail. Yeah. So that's how that plus what supports the post office, which is exactly win-win. Yeah. Jessica: Yeah, totally. And you know, and try to remember, I just want people to remember that the majority of America desperately wants Trump out of office. The majority, like, yes, he has got a very devoted small following, but the rest of the country will, is desperate to have him out. So people are going to work very hard to vote and make their friends vote. It's just, I know there's so much fear. And I, I mean, look, I share it, but I also, I want us to have faith in each other. And I want us to have faith in this country. It's not broken fully yet. It's very broken, but I still believe there's enough of an infrastructure in place that we can have a fair election, as long as enough of us show up. This is not an election that anyone can sit out. We need numbers. Passionistas:  So can we talk about phone banking now? Jessica: Excellent. Passionistas: I want to say one thing though, I today started to, um, to write postcards for Jon Ossoff. You know, him for everybody who doesn't know is running for Senate in Georgia. And I really wanted to point out that the thing I love about him, which is his hashtag is his name is Jon Ossoff, O S S O F F. And his hashtag is hashtag #VoteYourOssoff. Passionistas: Oh, he deserves to win. Jessica: So I just wanted to give him a little plug. That's great. Georgia is doing really well. Stacey Abrams released some statistics today about, uh, early vote and vote by mail and Georgia. And it's already off the charts with, you know, typically voters who vote our way. So she's been working her butt off in that state. People are working very hard. I have a lot of faith. I have a lot of faith. Passionistas: That made us all feel better. So, um, so now what do we do? How do we make it happen? Passionistas: Well, let's talk about fun banking for a second, because this is the, you know, this is the big challenge right now. So first of all, people are voting already, right? In a lot of States, the election has started. We are officially in the election and starting next week, that's it like it's election month. We are fully in, GOTV get out the boat. Right. So, um, all of the big organizations are having their big weekends of like training and phone banking starting next weekend. So Y Mo you probably all know this, but why do we phone bank? Why can't we all just send postcards until the election? Because postcards increased voter turnout somewhere between one and a half to 2%. Right. Which is a nice little bump in turnout. Um, as I always say, in my workshop, Donald Trump won in Wisconsin by seven tenths of 1%, right? So we're not going to sneeze at one and a half percent because that would have won us Wisconsin. He won the entire election by 77,000 votes. You guys, it's just not a lot of votes, um, or you peoples are very much trying to stop saying you guys. Um, but, um, so those postcards about one and a half to 2% bump don't forward letters, which are amazing. And I know you are doing those as well, and I've done a bunch of my husband does them. Those letters are great. They increased turnout by about 3.4%, right? That's their studies have shown. So phone banking is a significantly more than either of those things, right? Phone banking, talking to a person, voice to voice can increase turnout by maybe twice what the vote forward letters can when we're lucky. So again, these don't sound like huge percentages, but that's more than enough if we can get enough people on the phone. And, um, there's a great phone banking video that I'm playing in my workshop now that, um, this woman is just talking about why we fund bank. And it's not as many people think to persuade Trump voters. And I think that people think that they're going to be forced to get on the phone and argue with somebody like their uncle in Alabama. Who's, you know, got the mag ahead. You're not going to, first of all, campaigns are generally having you call lists of people that they think, or at least potential supporters. They're not sending you to call heavily Republican list. That's just counterproductive. It's a waste of their time. But even when I do get somebody on the phone who is just like, you know, girl Trump or whatever, or I only vote Republicans, the response is thank you so much. Have a great day. And we hang up the phone. Our job is to find our people reluctant Democrats, who almost never vote independents, who are persuadable, um, declined to States. People who are just low propensity voters or people who want to vote, but are fuzzy on the process. Like, yeah, I do want to vote, but I still haven't gotten my absentee ballot. And they're like busy doing something else. So they haven't taken care of that yet, but we can help them. So most of what we do when we phone bank is help people who want to be helped if they don't want to be helped, they'd get off the phone. But it's not about trying to persuade someone who has totally drunk the Kool-Aid and is like screaming about things that are just, you know, upsetting. And we don't want to talk about those. People are not who we're trying to persuade. We don't need them. It is a waste of time. The campaign doesn't want you wasting your time with them. So when I get someone like that on the phone, again, I'm going to say, thank you so much, have a great day quick. I'm going to Mark them as strong opposed. And the campaign's going to take them off of their list, right? They don't want people like that on their lists either. They want to maximize their time and our time by looking for people who are potential votes. So part of what we're doing when we're phone banking is just finding those people and sort of sorting them into piles of like, that's not someone who's going, gonna vote for us. That's someone who maybe they definitely need more attention. That person is so into us that like, we're going to put them in this pile over here. We're not going to bother with them again until the day before the election, just to make sure they voted because there are definite supporter and a high propensity voter. Then we're also right now doing stuff, we call it cleaning the lists. So if for those of you who like to clean, we're basically just making sure everybody's phone number is still the same. You know, we're calling lists that are from elections two years ago, mostly. So some of that information is outdated. Sometimes people no longer live in that place or their phone number has changed, or they've moved. Sometimes they're deceased. Sometimes they've changed parties, whatever their thing is. So that's what we're doing. We're sending that data back to the campaign. So we're both gathering data from the voter about who they support, where they are and their thoughts. And we are bringing data back to the campaign. Hey, that person now lives in California. So take them off the list. And that's the wrong number. It's disconnected. Take that off. This person wants to volunteer, call them. This person wants to drive people to the polls, reach out to them. This person wants a yard sign. So it's a lot of data exchange. And, but there is something about calling and talking to someone voice to voice, which every time I run a phone bank, I have a volunteer say, I just talked to somebody who was on the fence. And we talked about like our kids and healthcare. And by the end, they they're going to vote for Biden or, you know, so it's not like every person we talk to is a massive victory. But again, we think about our own tiny contribution. And if I phone bank for an hour and I get three people or two people who were on the fence and are maybe going to support my person, now I have done my job. Other than that, it's a lot of not home. It's a lot of leaving voicemails. When, when the campaigns want you to leave voicemails, they do sometimes. And they don't sometimes. Um, if you're nervous about using your own phone number, which a lot of people are, a lot of the campaigns now are using something called an automatic dialer or predictive dialer. You can just make sure that you use one of those and it all goes through a computer program. So your phone number never comes into it. And you literally just sit there on hold until somebody picks up and it's great. And you actually talk to more people. And, um, it's all very scripted. And I guess the last thing I'll say is that in my experience between texting and phone banking, I mean, I love canvassing. That's awesome, but we're not doing that right now. Um, I actually find people are much nicer over the phone. My craziest meanest responses from voters have always been, um, texting. I actually don't text all that often because people are so much nicer on the phone. I would just rather deal with the, the politeness. I had someone today just tell me to F off on a text bank. And I'm like, Oh, I had asked him was how he, you heard of the candidate. No one would do that over the phone, but on texts, do they feel like they can do that? So I like calling people tend to be nicer, especially when I speak with a smile, which is one of my big tips for phone banking is smile talking, which is as a woman, I don't like to be told to smile, but in my experience that when I smile talk, it's the same thing that anybody who does any work on the phone knows like, I sound different when I'm talking like this. And when I'm talking like this, it's just different. So when I kind of talk with a smile and, and I, myself, I'm I'm, I am me on the phone. I don't pretend to be somebody else. I act like myself. Um, if I make a mistake, I say, Oh God, I'm so sorry. I'm a volunteer. And I'm, you know, I'm a mom and I've been doing homeschool all day and I'm tired. You know, that's how people actually connect with us. They relate with us through our humanity. So, um, I emphasize the fact that I'm a volunteer. I recognize the fact that I'm barging in on people. And I say even sometimes I hate when people call me, but this election is so important and people appreciate it. So, um, I just encourage people to try it. We really do need more people on the phone. And, and, and the last thing really I will say is, you know, my daughter is very obsessed with “Hamilton” right now, right? So we're talking about the revolutionary war, revolutionary war a lot. And you know, we talk about the fact that during the revolutionary war, the people who fought to found this country like died in massive numbers, right? To sort of defend the idea of our freedom and eventually our democracy, right? They died to form this country or they lost legs, or they were blinded, or, you know, people suffered horribly. If I am being asked to get on the phone and be a little bit uncomfortable to literally save our country, we are literally talking about saving this country. Then I am going to do that. And I am pretty sure that all of you can, I know YouTube can cause your, you know, the worst that can happen. What does it mean to me? I get to keep my legs. You know, I don't have to walk through a snowy valley with leather straps wrapped around my feet. I mean, yeah. The stories from the revolutionary war pretty normally we're just being asked to make some phone calls. We can do it. You can do it. All of you can do it. I will turn it on to my phone banks. Yeah. How do people go to your phone beds? Well, um, you can there's uh, let's see. Do you guys do like show notes or anything like that after this? Will you post some information? Passionistas: Yeah. And we can put you post things in the chat and everything. Yeah. Jessica: So you can post my email address. Uh, the, the chop wood carry water, email address, see WCW daily actions@gmail.com. People can email me and I can add you to my big list. I invite people to a bunch of phone banks and you can come or not come as you see fit. But every phone bank I do either I or somebody else will train you. Um, you always do them on Zoom. They're all remote. So you're with a group of people. And if somebody is mean you can come back to the group and just say like, Oh, somebody just called me the devil. And then everybody laughs and people send you hard emojis, and then you go on, right. Um, and if you have a victory, then you come back to the zoom and you share that. And people are really excited for you. Uh, so you can do that. I highly recommend flick the West if you're concerned, particularly if you want for RBG, if you, if you're concerned about flipping the Senate flip, the West is an extraordinary organization. They do great bone bank trainings, like four times a week. Um, they just launched a training called demystifying phone banking for geo TV. That is apparently amazing. Um, there were these women who do a phone bank training called bone banking for introverts, which I can provide a link for. Um, and that's supposed to be great, actually, it's on my Google doc. You, you have access to my group. So it's in their phone banking for introverts. That's supposed to be great. Um, you know, it's one of those things like you'll try it once or twice, and then you'll be like, Oh, this is actually just mostly kind of boring. Like mostly I'm just getting people who aren't home and it's model that exciting, but it does feel so good when you get somebody who needed your help. So those are a few of the ways. And I mean, my God, you can just Google like phone bank for Biden or, you know, there's million ways to get involved, swing left. Um, flippable any number of organizations can guide you to phone banking, but, um, you can post the link to my Google doc, which has a gazillion phone banks in it. If po choice is your thing planned Parenthood does phone banking. If environment is your thing, three fifty.org does phone banking. So there's a million ways in, and they'll all basically take you to the same kind of event. You know, we're not reinventing the wheel. This is something that we've all done for a long time and it works. And you know, scientists say that getting out of your comfort zone is actually very good for you. People who get out of their comfort zone regularly actually live longer. So, you know, this is an opportunity for us all to do something that we don't want to do, but that is good for us and good for our country. How exciting is that? Passionistas: That's good. Yeah. And I don't think anybody wants to look back on November 4th and wish they had done more. That is for sure. Jessica: That is for sure. And that's what this great. I should I'll, I'll get you the link to the video too. And maybe you can post it in the chat after this great three minute video about phone banking, but she says that she's like, yes, it's uncomfortable, but you know, what will really be uncomfortable is waking up the morning after the election and finding out that we still have Trump in office. Like that will be devastating. And I definitely don't want to wake up the morning after and think I could have done, I could have done more. And I I'm happy to say, I am not going to wake up and say that, but I, I, you know, I don't think that anyone wants to feel that way. Passionistas: Yeah. So, yeah. Jessica: And it feels good to be part of a win. You'll love it. You'll love the feeling of having helped us win. Yeah. It's a wonderful feeling. Passionistas: And I should say this wasn't something you've done all your life. I mean, this is something that you chose to do in recent years and you've educated yourself and now you're really comfortable doing these things, but it's not like, I just want people to know, like, it's easy to sometimes look at somebody who's talking like this and say like, Oh, well, but you know, you've dedicated your career to this. Like, this is something that you came to in after 2016 is not really opt in. Passionistas: Right. And so you can, you can make the choice to make the change in your life to make this a priority. Jessica: Absolutely. I am not a, I'm a volunteer. I'm not, uh, I, you know, I mean, I have Patrion sponsors, but like I'm not paid by anybody. Um, and I only ever phoned bank during presidential elections before Trump was elected. So yeah. And I think people come to my workshop. I always tell the story of Sally. She came to my workshop a couple of months ago and she, you know, my age, very, you know, just by, I don't know what she does, but definitely does not work in politics. And she was like, I mean, I will try it once, but I'm telling you, I'm going to hate it. And I'm dyslexic. I can't read those scripts and I'm going to suck at it, but I'll do it one time because you're telling me I should. And she came to my phone bank and God love her. Ended up staying on. After we all got off the zoom, she was like, I'm still calling. She got us three volunteers her first time out and then just started putting banking all the time. And now I don't even hear from her anymore because she's just off phone banking. She found out she loved it and she was good at it. And she was positive. She would not be. So for some people, it really is underbelly uncomfortable, but you won't know until you try. And for most people it will not be unbearable. Um, and, and if you find out that it is, at least you tried, at least you gave it one try, but for 90% of us will be like, huh? I mean, it's, you know, I'd rather be taking a bubble bath, but you know, I'll do it, bring the phone into the bathroom phone, into the bathroom. Passionistas: I obviously haven't phone banked yet, but I have been texting and you're right. People can be really harsh on texting. Um, but the other day I got a text, you know, the first question I was supposed to ask was, can we count on your support? And, uh, and I got this really like inappropriate response back. And I was gonna just, you know, send back the thanks, have a good day. And then I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. And so I forget how I replied, but I kind of replied like, what are your issues kind of thing. And, and, you know, it felt not to be judgmental, but it felt like, like a 16 year old boy texted me back. Um, and he was like, if I get a hell, yeah, I'll go to provide me. I'm like, how much, how long am I going to let this person jerk me around? And I was like, doesn't really hurt me just to text back and see what he says. And so I texted back hell. Yeah. And then he texted back and he was like, wow, you must really want me to vote for bud light. Cause I'd stuck with it for these few comments now it's like, yeah, I do is really important. And I gave like, check the rate registration email, and it ended up in this like really long chat with this person. And by the end they're like, all right, well, awesome. It didn't hurt. It was like, you know what? I can let this person intimidate me because they think they're cute and funny interview noxious. Or I can just see where it goes and give it five minutes of my time. And it felt really good at the end. It was like, all right, well, that's not the back in line. What's next. It's amazing. Jessica: I did a lot of texting with Open Progress for a long time. And you would see these conversations that people would post in the Slack that were so incredible where someone starts out very mean and hostile. And then when you send them a reply that lets them know that you're a real person, half of the time, they're like, Oh, I did not know that you were real person. Like they genuinely think you're a bot. And then once they find out you're real, sometimes they will actually have a conversation. And yeah, sometimes there were some people who are so unplugged from politics that they're basically like, I don't, I don't really care. Like what's the difference. And if you're like, okay, this is actually really important to me. They'll, they're like, all right, fine. I'll do it for you. Like I, I had that experience before and, you know, whatever, whatever gets them. Yeah. Well, anyway, I don't want to share that story publicly, but I mean, whatever gets somebody within reason to vote, you know? Yeah. That is just a persuasion. It's wonderful. That's great. And yeah, texting can be really effective. Sometimes it does require a bit of a longer conversation and sometimes you got to get creative. I saw one texting conversation where the person they were texting with was started talking about Fortnite and the volunteer fortunately knew a lot about Fortnite. So she started responding with these very like insider comments about Fortnite and she won his vote because of that. Whereas I would have had no clue. So, I mean, it was just kind of good luck that he got her and then he was like, you're amazing. I'm going to vote. It was a whole thing. So, you know. Yeah. But that's what it's all about. Right. It's all about reminding everybody that we're all the same common interests. We all worry about similar things. Right. I mean, we all want our kids to grow up in a safe world and we, you know, most of us worry about the same things, not all of us, but generally I can find an area of connection with a person on the phone. Passionistas: Yeah. And I have to say both ways, like I've also, I started yesterday morning texting with a friend and feeling really angry and down about Republicans and Trump supporters. And in the course of texting yesterday, I had a few people who are like, I'm voting Trump and you know, you just say, all right, great, thanks for letting me know, have a good day. And they lived, there were a few people that are back on like half a nice day. And thanks for checking, you know, and it was just not like, I don't understand the fundamentals of the decision to vote for the man, but it doesn't mean everybody who is, is the person. And it kind of just re renewed my faith and the other side, like, I still can't, can't forgive anybody that's going for them. But at least I felt like it was a reminder. Like there are people too, and they, some of them are really nice people, you know, they just are misguided for whatever reason. Um, so in that regard, it made me feel slightly more optimistic about some of the people in that. Jessica: Exactly. Oh, that's good. Yeah. But I couldn't turn them that texting is hard too, because I think they cast a very, very wide net with texting. So I think that you will tend to get more Republicans. Um, I feel like phone banking. They're a little bit more judicious about where they're sending you to call and I'm not sure why that is, but it's, it's just, I think because they can cast a wide net texting. They do. So you do, you end up getting a lot of people who were like Trump 2020, and you're just like, Oh my God, really? But calling, I don't get that. I don't know that I've ever had somebody just yelled Trump 2020 at me. Okay. Passionistas: Oh yeah. You can definitely get that yelled in the, it may just be my imagination, but I honestly feel like between last week and this week I've been texting in Arizona mostly. And um, since RPG passed away, I swear to God more people there have been fewer Trump, 2020s, interesting work and more either neutral or onboarded by which, because the first couple of days I did it within her, it was like really depressing. And it was like 90% of the people were Trump 2020. I mean, and take me off the list. And then she passed away everything every time since then, it's been like a very small fraction of the people. So maybe I'm just trying to keep myself positive or maybe there is some shifts that happened. Jessica: Um, well, yeah, I think you're going to actually like phone banking. I do feel like, I feel like Is very comparatively is very draining and phone banking. I find very uplifting. So, um, I, I'm not sure everybody feels that way, but for me, I tend to get depressed when I'm texting. I think because there are so many Trump people because they're casting such a wide net and calling it's not, I don't know. I always feel pretty uplifted afterwards. Passionistas: Wow. I'm definitely going to try it. I'm terrified of it. I am too, but I'll do it. Jessica: Um, come to my Biden phone bank on Monday. It's it's great. Passionistas: Okay. Yeah. It's not Monday. I can't Monday thought through with all that. Jessica: I'll send you my whole schedule. Yeah, definitely. We'll definitely get, we are going to commit right now that yes, we're committed. Passionistas: I definitely check out the Flip the West trainings. They're really good there. Those are definitely in my Google doc. Also, you can post them for your people wherever that's fabulous. And Passionistas: Does anybody listening have any questions? Just pop them in the comments and we'll pass them on. So just, do you have any thoughts on flipping the Senate and whether that's going to happen or what, what do you, what's your gut it's going to happen? Jessica: It has to happen. Yes. It's going to happen. I mean, you know, none of us can see into the future, but I believe it's going to happen. Um, the polling in Iowa is extremely good. The polling in Kansas is really good. Um, pulling in Arizona is outstanding. Obviously. Uh, Georgia is somewhat competitive. Alaska is competitive. Um, Montana is somewhat competitive. I mean, I think we still have a little bit of work to do there. Uh, Colorado is extremely competitive. North Carolina is competitive. There's a lot of seats. We just need four, if we can win the presidency. Um, and we need to hold Doug Jones seat. But, um, yeah, I mean, it's, we have a lot of money. There's been a lot of money raised. So financially we are destroying the other side. I actually think, uh, Jamie Harrison is to win Lindsey. Graham was on Twitter, crying about how desperate for money he is, you know, he's awful. And I think he's going to get punished at the ballot box and Jamie. Passionistas: Yeah. I think if we get him in McConnell out then… Jessica: McConnell, I mean, we get McConnell out by winning the majority. McConnell will then become a minority leader and that will actually almost be worse for him. Yeah, no. And I mean, look, I'd love to see Amy McGrath win, but that's a, that's a tough, you know, that's a tough seat, but it doesn't matter if we win the Senate for me, that's enough. That's enough. I don't care. Mitch McConnell can crawl off into obscurity and you know, I don't even want to start all back under his wing. I shouldn't say on Facebook, but yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, flip the West is a great organization. If you want to flip Senate seats, I really recommend them very highly. And um, yeah, we should all be working on that very, very hard because if we flip the Senate, I feel that that will bring us also Biden. Um, and, and you know, if Trump steals the election, but doesn't have the Senate, he can kick and scream all he wants. He's still not going to have really much he can do. So I don't think that's going to happen, but I'm just pointing out that it is another way that we can protect ourselves. So, um, but yeah, I think we're going to do it. I know we're going to do it. We're going to flip the Senate. We're going to hold the house. We're going to beat Trump and we're going to flip a whole bunch of state legislatures. It is going to happen, mark my words. Passionistas: You heard it here. Jessica: People also, if, if we flip the Senate, it's harder for Trump to claim you won. Right? Passionistas:  Right. Jessica: Well, that's, that's the thing is that in order for him to claim that he actually won, he has to say that every election in the country was invalid at which point, okay. Then that's just chaos. Then what do we do then? Like, we don't have elections anymore because we're holding elections the same way we always have. So you can't have one and not the other, this is why it's not going to happen. He can't it's, it's not just ignore him. Okay. I rarely  talk about this. I'm going to say something right now that I rarely, rarely, almost never talk about, but my dad was a filmmaker. Right? He made horror films. This is something I do not talk about, but it's applicable here. He made a movie called “Nightmare on Elm Street.” Right. And I don't know if you've ever seen it. Probably some people have and some people haven't, but there's, you know, the bogeyman is Freddy Krueger. And in the end, the way the woman in the film beats him, her whole thing is you turn your back on them and you take away their energy. And then they literally just evaporate. And I'm not comparing Trump to Freddy Krueger. I actually, so much of his energy from us, you know? And so my whole thing with him is just a screen. I don't give him, I don't talk about him. I don't read his tweets. I don't re I don't listen to him talk. He does not exist for me to the best of my ability, because what he wants is to exist for all of us all the time. So, um, turn your back on him. He's just Freddy Krueger. He is, uh, he is, defeatable just like further Krueger was and just like everybody is defeatable, he's not a supernatural being, he's just a human politician. So, um, that is the, probably the last time for 10 years that I will talk about that publicly again. But I just wanted to Passionistas: I'll say it. Yeah. I always think of, um, since we're using movie references, I always think of “Labyrinth.” When she finally realized that realizes it and says that line, you have no power over me. Jessica: Right. Right, right. Right. So like, why am I giving you of my energy? It's a classic abuser and abused relationship at this point. And we as women, especially, you know, the, the middle-aged women who are running this army right now, it is our job to say, like you can't the second I turned my back on you, you have no power over me. And we are working very, very, very hard and we will demand. And this is a female business. We are fighting the patriarchy I could go on. But like, our job is to not be bullied by this man. And the way we are not bullied is we get on those darn phones and we text and we write and we call and we talk to our friends and family and we get people to vote. And that is how we defeat this man. We women. Yeah. And especially these almost all women. Yeah. Passionistas: And especially in honor of RPG, since it says he's going to replace her, he thinks that he can say, I'm replacing her with a woman and we're all stupid. I'm going to be like, Oh, that's great. I'm fine. He's destroying her legacy by planting, whichever one of these, your, so we need to fight harder in her memory, in her honor to be the women that, you know, don't, don't stand for it.   Jessica: Right. And he can't destroy her legacy. He can't destroy it if we don't let him. Yeah. Yeah. Her legacy is in us to win. That is how we carry her legacy on is we win. We destroy him at the ballot box. And uh, and then who's destroying who at that point, when he can't destroy her legacy, again, her legacy is so much bigger than him. She's worth a million of him literally. Right? Passionistas: Yeah. Did you see his visit too? Jessica: I just, I did. And this is the thing I want people to remember is that when you take him out of his little supporter bubble, America hates him. And it's really easy for us to forget that because all the press shows us is his supporter bubble. I don't know why, but that is what they choose to cover. But the majority of the country hates him. So it is when you take him out of that bubble, it's the same thing with the town hall he did last week. People don't, he's awful and people know what Americans are not stupid. So that is why I just want people to stop watching news. Yeah. And do the work. That's how it was fed. Passionistas: The town hall was fascinating because fascinating. You couldn't see most people's mouse because they had their masks on their eyes were. So every answer was like, every person's eyes were like, that's not what I asked you. Or like you're a or whatever it was, but just like in their eyes. Yeah. Really interesting. Yeah. Jessica: And he's just, you know, he never lets himself be in those situations, but as we get closer to the election, he will. And he has to, and yeah. I mean, yeah. Passionistas: I was going to say, what's your thought on how the debate's going to go next week? Jessica: I don't know. And I don't care quite frankly. I mean, honestly, I don't really care again, like to me, that's all part of the, the press, the end of the show, like the circus, like, I mean, I know who I'm voting for and there's obviously no question. Like, we all know we don't even need these debates. I don't know if there was an undecided of Oregon left and if there is good, the debates, right, right. That's great. And they should watch them. I'm not, I am not. I mean, if anyone really has a question right now about who is more fit to be president than they're insane, quite frankly, so sorry if I'm offending anybody, but not in this area, then we lost them a long time ago. I probably lost them in the first part of this podcast. But I think, I think that, you know, Trump will be insane and crazy and Biden will hopefully, uh, I think Biden is going to do great Biden. Hasn't been doing great. And Trump is destroys himself every time he opens his mouth. So yeah, but I will not be watching. I can't watch Trump. I don't, I don't watch him. Freddy Krueger. Passionistas: No, it's really, it's good advice. It's I do it to myself because I feel like I need to stay informed, but I guess I have all the information I need right now. Yeah. Jessica: I don't think, and you're not getting informed by him anyway. You're getting lied to so it's not information. Yeah. Yeah. Passionistas: No, for me, it's not about informed about what he, he is saying or doing. It's more like we watch at least an hour of Fox news every day. Oh God. Oh yeah. Because it's really interesting to hear how the other side is getting brainwashed. I don't know what the talking points are and what's avoided. So it's, it actually is really interesting in the context of this, like talking to people and texting people or having conversations with people that I know that might be on the fence. It's like, I, I understand like if you, if you buy into that at all, like Fox is brilliant at making it seem real and logical, you know? Um, so you know, it, sometimes it makes you think like, wow, am I is brainwashed by the other side as these people are that this side has it, it makes sense if you're crazy, if this medic Nazi, this makes sense. You know? Um, so it's just interesting. I can only do it in short skirts, but we do watch a bit every day. Um, and, uh, and you see you, it just gives you, I mean, all you see is Portland burning the block of Portland that's burdened, which makes it seem like if you buy into that agenda, it makes it seem like the country's role, unless you stop and say, it keeps showing me the same law of Portlands over and over. Or we'll say like April 21st, 2020. It's like, though that didn't happen yesterday. It it's just interesting from, from that perspective to, um, to kind of just keep an eye on what's what the dialogue is. Um, but then it gets like insanely frustrating and I either have to leave or I get angry. So I do it in little, little spurts. Yeah. Jessica: You're way more emotionally resilient than me. I couldn't do it. Yeah. I can't do it. I can't do it. I don't know. Maybe I'm just more of a masochist, but I think we should end this the way we started, which is, I agree. I am hopeful that there are enough, strong-willed good people out there that are going to vote the right way and convince as many people as possible to do it. And all we can do is, do, do as much as get up every day before the time we have, you know? Um, so you know, we thank you because you really have, um, we've learned so much from you and you really do inspire us. And, and now what, you can get a God willing more than you've been to try and get some other people to join us. Yes. I think flip the West even has the training tonight. They have, I think every Tuesday and Thursday, twice a day. So yeah. Check them out, go check them out, come, come join me at one of mine. They're short and easy. And uh, yeah, it's like, one of those come on in the water is fine situation, but of activism one-on-ones coming up this week. So if anyone wants to come and do a one hour free workshop, that'll give you other ways you can help, uh, you know, email me and I'll send you the schedule. I've got one in about an hour. Actually. I've got one at five o'clock tonight. Passionistas: Yeah. Cool. So the same, the same email address as before. And they can reach out to you and then be, yeah. Jessica: And I'll send them the Zoom registration. Like I've got one at 5:00 PM tonight, Pacific time. And then, you know, one on Saturday, one on Sunday, a couple of next week. So yeah. Passionistas: And we have, like we said, we have done Jessica's workshop as part of our summit. And it's amazing. There's so many different things you can do that are in your comfort zone. If you are afraid to do one thing or another, we get it. Jessica: You know, we're not trying to pressure anybody into doing anything they don't want. There are enough things you can do. I just said, even if it's, it makes a difference of 1%, that's huge. So do what you feel comfortable doing and get used to it. You know, I think I feel ready to do phone banking because I feel so comfortable with all the other stuff right now that it's like, Oh, why not give it a shot? So start by doing what you can. Passionistas: And there's also, I want to say there are, um, Nancy what's at organization. You sent me today that to do, I know it can be expensive to do letters and postcards. If you got to buy the postcards goodbye to stamps, you know, it's not always easy for people, but we'll post a link in the chat of an organization that you can, even, if you can't afford the postcards, they'll send you postcards and stamps Jessica: Is that Sunrise, it's gotta be at Sunrise. Passionistas: You posted about it today. Jess, I did. I posted about it. I got the information from you. Jessica: Yeah. It's pay what you can. So if you can afford to pay for it. Great. And if you can't, they will literally send you all, everything you need for free, which is great. Yeah. That's really good. And they're beautiful postcards. Passionistas: They're beautiful postcards. And the other thing about them is that they're, um, they're, they are trying to mobilize younger people too, which is great. Jessica: The young voters. Yeah. Which is great. Sunrise is a fantastic organization. I can't say enough good things about them. I am a member of, but I'm really too old. So I'm like, I'm like a sunrise grandmother, but a great organization for young people. Passionistas: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so we will post that link as well. So if, if you can't afford it, you can afford it. That's all. Um, yep. So, well, this has been amazing. Thank you ladies. Six weeks away, everybody. So 39. Yes. Follow chop wood, carry water on social media as well. And stay on top of what justice is doing because there might come a day where you think you don't have time and you find you do and see what Jess is doing. Because the other thing I'd have to say is what's great about dress is she sends out a daily email blast election aside. There's a daily email blast that goes out and it gives you action items that you can do on a daily basis. Like these are the things you should do today. Call this person, emailed this person, you know, the representatives. And this is what you have to say. This is what you should write in your email. It makes it so easy. And in five minutes you can make a difference and you can do it every day. And it's an amazing, amazing resource. Thank you. Just trying to stay safe. Jessica: Hope is an action. Woo. Passionistas: All right, well thanks. Have a great day. See you next five. Next time. Bye.

01:30 - James’ Superpower: Spending time chasing his daughter and her robots around. Helping with her robotics club at school. 02:37 - “Just Be Yourself” is Terrible Advice 03:50 - What Are You Trying to Accomplish in the Interview 06:00 - Be Authentic: Which Parts of Yourself to Show Be a Strong Communicator Be an Avid Learner Don’t be a Jerk 07:25 - Turn Your Interviewers into Your Advocates 12:42 - Technical Interviews Saying “I Don’t Know” is OK 16:00 Interviewee as the Interviewer Make Sure You Want to Work Here Answer Questions Honestly 18:53 - Prepare for Common Interview Questions Rephrasing Weakness 23:34 - Intrinsic Motivation Mastery by Robert Greene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastery_(book)) 29:29 - Storytelling in the Interview Being Confident in Your Accomplishments Interviewers Explain Why You Are Asking the Question 37:15 - Management Techniques Richard Cook (https://www.adaptivecapacitylabs.com/richard-cook/) Herbert Simon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_A._Simon) 45:00 - Why Technical Interviews are Challenging Cracking the Coding Interview (http://www.crackingthecodinginterview.com/) Reflections: John: Setting the context for being approachable as an interviewer is important. Rein: Some of this advice works all the time, and some of this advice only works when you have been able to develop a personal connection with the interviewer/interviewee. James: Think about if this is a place you want to work while interviewing. Avdi: Turning your interviewer into your advocate can help them also be able to tell you if this place will be a good fit for you. Jessica: It’s not just about being able to interview well as the interviewee, but we need to choose a company that can interview well too. Ask your personal contacts about what it is like to work at a certain company. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Amazon links may be affiliate links, which means you’re supporting the show when you purchase our recommendations. Thanks! Special Guest: James Edward Gray.

This month we hear from Chris and Jessica Duncan…and Zakai, their 4 month old who chimes in too! Chris and Jessica share insight into the importance of purity, how and why God designed sex for marriage, the power of soul ties while highlighting how God's redemption reaches our most broken, messy parts and pasts and the beautiful way He uses marriage to bind up these delicate parts of our pasts. 6:00- 11:50 — They talk about the first year of marriage and taking down the expectations they first had. 11:50-14:20 How they met. The actual greatest story! Jessica spotted Chris on a reality TV show and 4 years later, they connected. 14:20 - 17:40 Prior to committing their lives to Jesus, Chris and Jess dated for 3 years. They open up about what the basis of their relationship was — sex. But did they really know each other? “Looking back I can't figure out how or why we started having sex. Did we feel love for each other? Fast forward, to when we stopped having sex we found out new ways to love each other, to communicate beyond just the act of having sex. It's not even a connection or intimacy, it's really just empty pleasure. 
We didn't even have a relationship with each other. It was just that. We didn't know who the other was” — Jessica “Before Jesus, we see sex as for yourself. You get your self gratification, you get your sex, and that's it. That's what we know now, this wasn't what we knew back then.” -Chris 17:40 Jessica let Chris go after a 3 years of dating because of what she realized as she began seeking a relationship with Jesus. Finding Jesus became more important than any intimate relationship Jessica had with Chris when they were just dating and that's what really spoke to him…he thought, “You're willing to choose someone in some old book over me? I'm standing right here in front of you? You want to shut off this pleasure that's going on?”- Chris “It was a battle and it took time. Because there was a person in front of me. Jesus became real the more I looked…the more I sought Him. For a long time, I thought, ‘Okay, if something happens between us then I can fully dive into my relationship with God. I knew that's what I should be doing, but I kept falling into the same old, ‘But this is my boyfriend…' and twisting the words in the Bible. And thought, ‘Well one day I want to marry him, so that means he's my husband.' But there was a point God said, “He's not your husband, he hasn't committed that. And I realized, my husband could have been somewhere else.” - Jessica. “There came a point where I just said, Lord, take him. Take him away, this is my chance to just walk with You and not be distracted. If he's not my husband, just let him be that guy that leaves it that way.” -Jessica When he came back around, if I was going to allow him back in my life I had to be honest with him. I had to tell him I wasn't going to pursue a relationship with a man that isn't a man of God — and that means more than just putting it in your bio. It's walking in his purpose, being convicted with what the Word of God says, leading her to Christ, not drawing her to you.” - Jessica “It's not just about saying “God first”, it's actually putting God first and letting Him transform you.” - Chris “Sex was what was stopping me from walking truly with hIm and the purpose he had for me.” — Jessica 22:00 God's definition of a relationship. It wasn't until we talked about this, that the true purpose of our relationship finally started revealing itself.” - Jessica “So we put Him first and tried to understand what His definition of a relationship was or is instead of our own understanding of what a relationship is” — Chris “We're fallen, we're always going to define things. It's so important to go back to the Bible, and what the Bible defines what marriage is, what a relationship is, how it should be, we can try to define it so many ways but it's always going to be imperfect bc we're imperfect people. The Bib --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Jamie gushed over these at one point or another, so now we're shitting on them: We Stand On Guard by Brian K Vaughn & Steve Skroce Gideon Falls by Jeff Lemire & Andrea Sorrentino Snotgirl by Brian Lee O'Malley & Leslie Hung I Hate Fairyland by Scottie Young Also in this episode: Jess gets hyped for corporate mergers Memorabilia is dumb Guess the 2000AD story Scott is referencing Ashley can't bake Everything's coming up Jessica It's Tyler Durdens all the way down Panelists: Jamie(@thatcomicfan), Ashley(@sierradean), Scott(@goddamnitscott), Jess (@GeekyChicky87)

Order Your Copy Of Marriage After God Today! https://Shop.marriageaftergod.com Quote From Marriage After God Book “You and your marriage are no accident! He created both you and your spouse intentionally, with a specific purpose in mind!” Prayer *Dear Lord, Thank you for the gift of marriage. Thank you for pouring your thoughtfulness into the way you designed marriage. Thank you for giving us a toolbelt that is unique, so that we can pursue and do all of the things you have for us to do. Please help us to understand everything that is in our toolbelt and show us how we can use it for your glory. We pray we would keep nothing back from you. We pray we would walk humbly with you and with each other. Use us to encourage one another in marriage and affirm the gifts we see in each other. We pray that we would see all of the little and big ways you are inviting us to join you to spread your gospel of love, salvation, and amazing grace. May the testimony of Jesus be the motivation in our hearts to do what we do, all for your glory! In Jesus’ name, amen!* READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're on part 10 of the Marriage After God series, and we're gonna be talking with Channing and Jessica Gillespie about the tool belt God has given us. [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. We just wanted to take a moment to ask everyone listening to leave a review. This is just a great way to get the message of this podcast out into the world. So, if you could support us in that way, that would be so awesome. It's so easy. All you have to do is scroll down to the bottom and leave a star rating review or comment review. Both really encourage Aaron and I, so thank you to everyone who's already done that. [Aaron] Also, we'd like to invite everyone to pick up a copy of the Marriage After God book. It's our new book Jennifer and I wrote together, and it's the reason we're doing this series. It's the reason this podcast exists, so we'd love for you to get a copy of our new book, Marriage After God. Go to shop.marriageaftergod.com and grab a copy. Thank you everyone for listening. Today we have some Instagram friends of ours, Channing and Jessica Gillespie. Hey, welcome to the show, guys. [Channing] Hey, Aaron, Jen. How you guys doing? [Aaron] We're doing well. [Jennifer] So good. Thank you for being here with us today. We're so excited to have you guys, and we just want you to take a moment and let the listeners know who you are. So maybe how long you guys have been married, how many children you have, and what you do for work. [Channing] Awesome, yeah. Well, my name is Channing Gillespie. This is my wife Jessica. [Jessica] Hi. [Channing] We've been married two years, got married in 2016, October, and we're loving marriage. [Aaron] That's good, right? [Channing] We are high school sweethearts. [Jennifer] Aw. [Channing] So we've been together a long time. We just had four first baby. [Jennifer] Woohoo! [Jessica] She's so cute, she's the best. [Aaron] What's her name? [Channing] Her name is Hadley Kate. We had her in August of this year, so she is five months, and she is the only grandbaby right now and the only niece, and so she is spoiled rotten. But we've enjoyed these past five months as mom and dad. It's a new. [Jessica] It's interesting. [Channing] It's interesting, that's a good word. [Aaron] Yeah, learning to be married and learning to be parents at the same time. [Jessica] Yeah, for real. [Channing] Yes. But yeah, we love it. I am actually on staff at the Church at Grace Park in White House, Tennessee. It's a little bit north of Nashville. I serve as the college pastor there. That's relatively new. We started that ministry back in June of last year, and been going strong with that, and I serve on the worship team at the church also, and I'm a songwriter and am seeking to write songs that point to hope amidst sorrow. That's really where I feel like the Lord's leading me to write songs right now. And so, just kind of seeking after the Lord and looking for new opportunities to do those things, both in ministry and in songwriting ministry and in worship. So that's a little bit about me. Jessica, you wanna go? [Jessica] Yeah, I am a wife and a mom. I got to come home full-time and be with Haddie Kate when she was born in August. [Aaron] Awesome. [Jessica] So I'm really blessed to be able to do that and excited that the Lord provided that, a way for that to happen for me. But I also, I like to create and I love to write. So I started a blog that's called The Good Cottage Wife in 2016, the year we got married. Started that, and so I have that going, and also, I am a consultant with Rodan + Fields. So I help people change their skin and change their lives, and I love it. I wear a few different hats throughout the week, but I love each one, and I love getting to use those in creative ways. [Aaron] Awesome. [Jennifer] That's beautiful. [Aaron] Yeah, I love the diversity in you guys' career paths and also how God's using you. And that's what we wanna talk about today, getting into this idea, but before we get to our main questions, we always start off question an icebreaker question. Are you guys ready for that? [Channing and Jessica] Yes. [Aaron] Okay, all right, here it goes, all right? This is gonna let people know a lot about you guys. What is the most awkward thing you've experienced as parents so far? [Channing] I don't know. We were talking about that this morning a little bit too, of what's some crazy things. I don't know if there's been anything awkward per se yet, but I think you get initiated into parenthood when you get peed on a couple times, so. [Aaron] There you go, yeah. [Channing] I've had that happen too many times. [Aaron] Yeah, I think it's a requirement. [Jessica] I did have, we were at church one Sunday and I was holding her. She wasn't very old, not that she's very old now, but I was holding her, and my hand started getting wet, and I'm like, aw, man, she's peeing on me, and I go to lift her up, and she had pooped on me. [Aaron] Oh, no, right in the middle of church. [Jessica] And it was on my shirt a little bit. I'm trying to wash it off and stuff, and I had brought a change of clothes, but it was in the car instead of her diaper bag. [Aaron] Oh, no. [Jessica] And so, everybody was like, yeah, that'll be the last time you do that. [Aaron] Yeah, poop's infinitely worse than pee. [Jennifer] I was thinking of this question for you guys, and I was thinking about our own experiences, 'cause we have a couple kids. [Aaron] We have four. [Jennifer] Yeah, we have four. [Aaron] We have two couple kids. [Jennifer] But the first thing that comes to my mind was my kind of initiation to motherhood, and that was Elliott was born in November, and I remember it was Christmas Day, and we had stopped at a gas station, and I took him out to nurse him, and somehow, he managed to move beyond all of his clothes and only poop all over me. And I'm like, oh, no, Aaron, we have to stop at Target or something, 'cause we're on our way to my grandparents house. [Aaron] Oh, we had no clothes. [Jennifer] Nobody said you're supposed to have an extra change of clothes. And so everything was closed. I mean, everything was closed, 'cause it's Christmas Day. I ended up having to stop at a relative's house, a cousin that I had that was my same size and I asked her if I could borrow a pair of pants. [Aaron] Oh, I remember this. [Jennifer] Luckily it worked just fine. [Aaron] So pro parent tip, bring a change of clothes for yourselves. [Jennifer] For everyone. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] If someone is in the car with you, if you're traveling, just bring an extra change for everyone. [Channing] Love it. [Aaron] Yeah, a baby go bag, extra pants, shirts, underwear, socks. [Jennifer] Okay, all right, we're gonna move on. [Aaron] All right. [Jennifer] Okay, so we're gonna jump in with a quote. Okay, we're gonna jump in with a quote from Marriage After God, from chapter 10, and it says, "You and your marriage are no accident. "He created both you and your spouse intentionally "with a specific purpose in mind," which, I love this quote, "and it's for every marriage and for everyone." [Aaron] Yeah, the reason we wrote this book is because God's got a mission for all of his people, that we're all a part of his body, that his body's doing something in this world. So our encouragement is just to marriages to recognize that their marriage wasn't an accident, that God's got a plan for it, and he desires us to say yes to him and to offer up our tools and gifts and talents. And so today, we're gonna talk about tools and what that looks like in your life, but also, that everyone listening can ask themselves the same questions, that they can use this conversation we're having today with you guys as a launching pad or as a conversation starter for themselves to be like, oh, what has God given us, and how can we use what God's given us to serve him, to say yes to him? So I hope you're excited about that. [Jessica] Yes. [Aaron] Cool, so the first question we got for you guys is do you believe God brought you two together with a specific purpose in mind? [Channing] Yeah, absolutely. For me specifically, I know even in my pursuit of Jessica, if that doesn't sound creepy. That's not supposed to sound that way. But in seeking the Lord with her, I had always prayed for one girl. Jessica's the only girl that I ever dated, and knowing that just in the back of my mind, I can hear my great-grandmother always saying to me, don't you ever bring a girl into my house that you don't intend on marrying. [Aaron] That's awesome. [Channing] And I really was drawn to that. I really asked the Lord, would you just send me one? And he sent me the best one. [Aaron] Found a good man, Jessica. [Channing] And with that, you know, even when we started dating in high school, I didn't really see the extent of the things that the Lord was gonna do with us. I'm reminded of Psalm 139, that he knew us individually before we were ever thought of, and that while he was knitting us together in the womb, that he had a plan and a purpose, individually, but also together. And we're just seeing even the beginning steps of that in the first two years of marriage. But we know that his plans and his purposes, though, we don't always see them in full, yet we know that they're good and that they're for our good. And so, just being able to walk in the truth that the Lord did bring me a good thing in my wife and knowing that together, whatever that is, whether that's just being a mom and dad to Hadley or if that's college pastors, in this season, we know that he has a purpose for us. [Aaron] Love that. [Channing] You have anything that you can think of? [Jessica] Yeah, I think it's cool that a lot of times, you don't see things for yourself or you don't see things in yourself, and then all of the sudden, God has you in the middle of something, and you're like, never ever did I ever think that this is what it would look like, but it's much better than what you could have conjured up on your own. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jessica] Just an example of that is when we were dating, which, he'll probably go into this deeper a little later, but when we were dating, and we had been dating a while, but he came to me and he was like, I really feel like I'm called to the ministry vocationally, at least right now. I don't know what that looks like. But he said I don't know, I just wanna let you know. I don't know if that changes anything for you. [Aaron] Warning. [Jessica] And not that it was a bad thing or anything, but I was not expecting that. Never did I think, oh, yes, I'm gonna be a minister's wife, and my husband's gonna be on church staff and all that. I just had never thought that. And so when he said that, I was like, oh, my. I'm gonna have to think about this, not that I wouldn't want him to pursue what God wanted for him. But quickly God shut my mouth and cut off my mind of thoughts and fears that came up, just worries of what financially and all the things like that. But he said, don't stifle what I'm trying to do and what I can do through him and through you with him even though it's not something that you ever thought would be a part of your testimony and part of your life. So I think it's cool that, and I know that he did bring us together for such a time as this, for college ministry, for his music, for me to get to be a stay-at-home mom. All of that is part of his plan, and even though it wasn't something and we didn't get to this point that we're at right now the way that I in my feeble mind thought we would, it's been much more filled with joy and fulfilling than I ever thought it could be, and it's because it was God's plan and not ours. [Jennifer] Man, I love the hopefulness that you guys are both sharing. Both of your perspectives are so full of hope, and I just hope that the people listening are encouraged by this, because what I'm hearing is it doesn't matter how long you've been married. It doesn't matter whether you've envisioned your life the way that it is or the way that it will be. We can all have hope in that and trust in what God is doing in our marriages, and I love that. [Aaron] And I also love that you essentially said, you're like, I had a different idea or I didn't know what my idea would be, but I yielded to God's idea instead, and I think that's the key in this pursuit of okay, Lord, what do you want for our marriage, what do you have for it, what have you given these things to us for, is a yielding, is saying yes. Okay, Lord, yes. It doesn't look like how I think, it's not going how I would have manufactured this to go, but we want what you want, and that's what I hear from you guys, and that's awesome. [Jennifer] So in Marriage After God, we talk about this idea of the marriage tool belt, and without giving away too much, because we want everyone to go read it, what do you guys think a marriage tool belt is, and what do you think of when you hear that term and what do you think is in your tool belt? And you guys haven't read the book yet, so this'll be interesting. [Channing] Not yet, not yet. [Jessica] As far as what I think is in our tool belt, definitely some things that are in there are advice that we can draw on from people that have been married much longer than us. I know that I received a ton of advice just from my mom, my grandmother, from women at church who have been married when we were engaged, and it's kind of funny, because sometimes, when you receive advice, it's like, yeah, okay. Well, that might not really apply to us, or I don't see that happening with us. And then you're quickly silenced when you enter that situation. It's kind of like, you don't know what you're getting into until you're in it, not that it's a bad thing or anything. It's just one of those things that, when you get there, you do have to draw on that advice. You're like, oh, they were right. Yeah, that would really help in this situation. So I would say advice, and then also, one thing that I've had to really try to hone in on and remember to do is to learn from our own experiences. Don't make the same mistake twice if you can go back and say, okay, this happened before. What did I do? Okay, that was probably not the right thing to say. That was the wrong moment. How can I make this not happen again, or how can we work through this better, if that makes sense. [Aaron] Yeah, no, I love that. [Jessica] And I would say advice, drawing from your own experiences and learning from them, and then humility and communication, and I know people say communication, yeah, I know that. But willingness to communicate, willingness to converse when there is an issue and just personally, I've had to work on that I know, because I'm the one that, when there's an issue or someone gets upset about something, I don't wanna talk about it right then. Like, leave me alone. Let me process this in my own mind. I don't wanna talk. And that's not the best approach. And so, I have had to learn, like, put down your pride, say you're sorry, and be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. So that, as far as what's in my tool belt, those are some very specific things. [Channing] Yeah, and I would add too of just growing up, thinking about the times that I saw my dad put his tool belt on, which, I don't own a tool belt. I need to probably get one. [Aaron] You're a dad now and a husband. You're supposed to have a tool belt. [Channing] I am. I have tools; I don't have a belt for them. [Aaron] Yeah, I don't have one either, yeah. [Channing] But I thought back to the times that I saw my dad put his tool belt on. It was when he was building something or he was repairing something. And I see that so much in marriage also of what I think the tool belt can be is whether it's building something together in your marriage, whether that's a ministry or just building a family, or there are gonna be times that you have to put the tool belt on because you're gonna have to repair some things in your marriage, and you're gonna have to address things. I think about it much like a house. If you don't attend to certain things in the house, after a while, those things are gonna need attention. And so, there might be times in marriage that Jess and I would have to address an area that would be an issue, or that has caused there to be some problem, but with that tool belt, I agree with Jess on a lot of that being from advice, and we've both been blessed to have parents that have stuck together through thick and thin and have really given us a good model of what marriage should look like and to persevere and endure. There's a lot of endurance in marriage. But with that in our tool belt too, to look at past experience, maybe even things that we've gleaned from our parents' marriages, things that we've learned from them over the years that help shape us in how we relate to one another, how we raise Hadley. I think there's a lot of things that can go into that belt. But those main things, I'm just really reminded of the building and the repairing idea. [Aaron] Yeah, it's almost like you guys have read that book already, and you haven't. The rebuilding and the repairing, those analogies are some of the reasons we bring up this idea of a tool belt, is because the tools are meant for something. They're meant for building and repairing. And the tools that God has given us, and you guys actually mentioned some of them. You mentioned relationships; you said advice. Relationships are part of that tool belt. You talked about your past and your experiences and all of these things that God has given us, and sometimes, we don't recognize them as tools to be used or things that God's given us as gifts in our life, the things that have happened to us in the past, education that we've received and our relationships. These are all things that God's given us that he wants us to use and steward and call on and employ in our life for not only our family's sake, but also for the family of God. So I love that you use those analogies. We were just looking at each other shaking our heads like yeah, this is good. [Jessica] That's awesome. [Aaron] Yeah, and that's our encouragement to those listening, is then recognizing that they may not be able to relate to everything in your story, but what is relatable is that everyone has a tool belt. All the things that you guys just mentioned, the people listening may not have a family like yours that raised you with certain things, but they do have a family, and they were raised a certain way. And whether positive or negative, those are still tools that can be drawn upon, and that leads us into this next question. One of the tools in the tool belt that we discuss in our book is our testimony. And so, that's why I go to this idea of, whether it's negative or positive, all of that plays into the testimony that God's given us of what Jesus has done in our life. And so I wanna ask you guys, you know, what is your testimony? What has Jesus done in your life? How has God drawn you to himself? Let's just talk about that tool for a moment. [Channing] Yeah well, I'll start. I grew up, my dad has been a pastor for pretty much my entire life, so I grew up in a ministry-style home. And so, I have the typical church Sunday school answer in the sense that we were always in church, and mom and dad always had us. When the doors were open, we were there. But for me, I got saved at an early age. My dad actually led me to Christ, just began asking questions when I was young. From that point, I had a good understanding of Jesus died for me and he wants me to come live with him in heaven. That was the extent of my faith as a child. But as I grew up, you begin to understand the depth of the gospel in that as you get older, you start to recognize you've really screwed some things up, and your sin just gets wider and wider, and the gap gets wider and wider. But then you begin to really appreciate and come to know the depth of the love that God has for his people and that he sent Jesus. And so, for me, it really became real to me when I got into high school and where I really began to get serious about my faith that it was more of a relationship when I got into high school with him, and for me, part of my testimony involves a call to the ministry and a running away from that call for a long time. Didn't wanna do ministry, didn't want that life. I grew up in it. Didn't want to be a pastor, but thought I had my own idea of what my life was gonna look, and pursued things that I thought were gonna bring me joy and happiness, and I can remember that Jessica shared a little bit about that conversation with me and her, but before that, I can remember my mom just point blank looking at me and saying, when are you gonna stop running? And a couple days after that, I was at a mens conference at a church in our community, and I can remember just sitting among thousands of other men, and it was like the Lord, it was just me and him in that room. And he said, I want you to stop running. I wanna use you in the ministry. And I accepted that call that night, not begrudgingly, but it was finally a moment in my heart and my life that I saw the picture of what the Lord wanted for my life. Now, he didn't say here's how this is gonna look. It was just a call to his ministry. [Aaron] Yeah, he was looking for a yes. [Channing] So yeah, it was just, okay. And so for me, that's been a big, big part of even my relationship with the Lord in the sense of learning to trust him and learning to depend on him and to submit to him and surrender to him. And so that call came when I was in my early years of college, and as soon as I made that call, all the anxieties of what I was gonna do with my life just started to fade away because I knew that he had already orchestrated and ordained me for that moment and that call. So for me, it's still growing. I count it as a relationship. I'm seeking to know him through his word and through his church and through just study of him. So I've seen my relationship with Jesus grow, even in the past two years of marriage, too, with the rigors and the good times and the bad times through marriage too, of learning how to trust him through it all. So that's what I would say, what about you? [Jessica] Yeah, so I was saved at six years old at a VBS, and just something that everyone knew about me. I was very shy. I'm not an extrovert at all. I really have to make myself come out of my comfort zone, which I know we all have to, but there's probably not an ounce of extrovert in me, naturally. But so I was saved there, and actually, part of it was I had to, I didn't wanna go down by myself. There were plenty of kids going down, 'cause they asked if anybody wanted to come down and receive Jesus into their heart, and I wanted to, but I was too scared to go down by myself. And so I asked somebody to walk down with me. And that, I didn't realize it until later how symbolic that was gonna be in my testimony of who I was and who God created me to be and who he made me to be after I received him. But as far as an intimate relationship with him, I really didn't know what that looked like or what that meant. In sixth or seventh grade, I was at a retreat with our school, and I don't remember who spoke. I don't remember what they said. But I vividly remember being at the altar and thinking, okay, I don't want a hello God, goodbye God relationship with him. I want a deep relationship with him. I want my life to matter. And so that was the moment where I really became intentional about growing that relationship with him and nurturing it, but a big part of my testimony, like I said, was I was shy. I was not willing really to get out of my comfort zone, and then the Lord said to me, it's not about what you have to say or what you can do, but it's about what I'm gonna say through you and what I'm gonna do through you. And he kind of just said, and there's nothing else that I need to say to you. Like what you guys said, you just need to say yes. Just say yes to me, and just do what I ask you to do. It's scary, and sometimes, it's inconvenient. Actually, probably most of the time it's gonna be inconvenient, but you're not who you once were, so you don't need to look like that anymore, and you don't need to be scared. And like a lot of girls do, as I got older, I started struggling with self-esteem issues. I really started to try to hide the fact that I struggled with that, and in a sense, I didn't have an eating disorder, but I started to really abuse exercise in my life and then just didn't eat enough to compensate for that. So I guess you could say I had an eating disorder, but that really became a god in my life. I was riding my bike around the house one day trying to get all that exercise in and make myself feel worthy and feel beautiful, and I remember, it was almost like the Lord stopped me, like I couldn't pedal anymore. And he said, oh, girl, just give it up. Like, you don't need this. All you need is me. I'm more than enough for you. My grace is sufficient for you, and stop going after all these things that you think are gonna make you comfortable, all these things that you think are gonna make you feel satisfied, because they're not going to. So that's really what he's done in my life and a big part of my testimony is when we're saved, we're not who we once were, but I, at least looking back at myself, I know that I am nothing as far as what my life looked like, the things I said, the things I did and wouldn't do because I was too scared. I don't look the same, and I thank God for that. [Aaron] Amen, wow. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's so cool, guys. We really appreciate hearing your testimony of what he's done in your lives, and I mean, I can pull out things just from hearing you talk of how God's already using those testimonies in what you're doing today. But I wanna hear from you. So how would you say that God's using these testimonies for what he has you doing today? [Channing] Well, for me, I know for this season, we've referenced it a couple times, of just working in college ministry. The Lord laid a deep desire in our hearts for 18to 25-year olds, because it's a very, very pivotal point in the lives of students, and I've been able to have some really good conversations with students who have come to crossroads in their lives of, do I pursue this, or do I pursue this? Do I listen to what friends say, or do I listen to what the Lord says? Do I listen to the desires that my mom and dad have for my life, or do I listen to the desire that I know God has for my life? For me, I can remember in that same age gap standing at that crossroad and multiple times coming to crossroads and running from what the Lord had desired and desired for my life. I wish I could go back and change some of those things. It would have saved a lot of heartbreak and a lot of striving in my life, but I know that it was all working for my good. So for me, to be able to share out of that on the ministry side with students to say, hey, you don't have to feel alone when you come to these decisions in your life that you just don't know what you're doing. I've seen the Lord be able to really cultivate some deeper relationships, some deeper trust in some of those relationships with some of the students that we work with. But then there's always still, I mean, Jesus has absolutely changed my life. So regardless of any of that, I desire for my life to be poured out for the gospel. And so, whatever that looks like, whether that's a conversation about where do I go to college next year or I'm really struggling through the pit of despair, Jesus is the answer. He's enough. And so, for me, that's always the bedrock of my testimony, is that Jesus is the answer. And so, where we may not always see him working right off the bat, we know that he is and that the story's not finished. And so, for me, I've seen the Lord open some really wide open doors for me to talk with college students, and even some in our church. [Aaron] Yeah. [Channing] That are not students, but the Lord just has opened doors for us to share. What about you? [Jennifer] Well, real quick, I just wanna say, I think what's so powerful of what I heard in your testimony is that when you said yes to God, all those anxieties that you had about what you were supposed to be doing went away. And so now you get to share that testimony, that part of your story, with all of these college-aged kids who are asking these really big questions, and that stands out to me as such a powerful way to communicate that when you say yes to God, he's the one that takes care of the details, and we don't have to worry about 'em. [Aaron] Yeah, and it doesn't mean things are gonna be easy. Like you said, you didn't get all of the answers right away, but he totally gave you peace, and you knew that you could trust him. So that's awesome, seeing that. Right there, you have a direct connection that you get to draw from that tool that God's given you, that testimony, that experience that you had with the Father to you pass onto these college students. And so, and I know you were about to ask Jessica, but Jessica, I have each question for you. This part of your testimony with self-image and just chasing after something to fulfill you and God getting ahold of your heart and saying, you don't need that. Has he given you opportunities to share with women who are struggling with the same things? [Jessica] Yes, and that's what I was gonna talk about, is you know, it's not about us, and that's what I usually tell people who start confiding in me about issues in their life or struggles with their image, who they are, and being scared to come out and be who God's made them to be, is none of this is about us. And if it is about you, and that's all you can focus on is what you have to offer, well, we don't have anything to offer. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jessica] There's no good thing apart from Christ. And I do love, and I am so thankful, that he walked me through that and he helped me through it so that I can share with others, because it's really cool when you see God take someone who has no self-image in a positive way, they don't look at their self at all through the lens of Christ, which is really easy to fall into, but it's so cool to see someone like that get up on a stage and sing or get up and even just share their testimony, or do the thing that they're so scared to do, but they can do it with Christ and with God's help. So that has been so cool, and I do think a lot about the fact that if I wouldn't have said yes, and I don't say that to boast about myself, because on my own, I would not have said yes. I would still be sitting in the corner of my bedroom. I probably wouldn't be married to Channing. If I wouldn't have said yes to anything that I'm scared to say yes to, I wouldn't have been able to see other people do the same thing. [Aaron] Yeah, that's just a beautiful example of God using the broken pieces of this world, us. We're in this flesh that is not yet redeemed, and he redeems our spirit fully and then walks us through the sanctification process and loves us as we're here in this world and then uses us when we say yes to him. I have a question though, one more for you, Jessica. Did you have opportunities to talk to women and share with women who were going through self-image things before God redeemed you from that, or did it start happening afterward? [Jessica] It started happening afterward. I don't doubt that he probably gave me opportunities, even as a middle schooler, just to pour into people that are younger than me, because I really have always had a passion for that, especially after saying yes, I will say anything you want me to say. I will get up and sing on that stage, or I will sing my baby to sleep at night in the room when no one else sees me, and I'll do it with a joyful heart. But before I said yes, I was focused on myself. I was focused on my fears and what I thought I could do and what I thought I knew I couldn't do. And so, I didn't really know. I might have had the opportunity before, but I didn't take it, and I didn't reap the joy that could have come from them. [Aaron] This is so great. Don't know Jennifer if you're being. [Jennifer] I'm to encouraged. [Aaron] Encouraged by this, but yeah, this is exactly what our hope for this conversation was, to show the reality of, it doesn't matter who you are. When you say yes to God, when you accept and follow Jesus as Lord, and you say, okay, Lord, here I am, like you said, we have nothing apart from Christ, and then he gives us the things he wants us to use. The master gives the servants the talents, you know? And you guys have said yes in your life, and I love that. [Jennifer] Yeah, what I think is so beautiful about you guys sharing your testimony and this story today is that, well, two things. The first thing is that how beautiful it is that all of our marriages are unique. So you guys are on our episode today and you're sharing your unique marriage story, your unique testimonies and how God is using those testimonies today to further his kingdom and build his kingdom, and I just want everyone listening to know that it is beautiful that every marriage is unique. And I know we shared about that in the last episode, but I just wanna reiterate that all of us have been given a tool belt, and it's an exciting process to be able to sift through it and see what God has given us and then encourage our spouse in using exactly what he's given us. And it sounds like that's what you guys are doing. You have these very specific testimonies, and they're powerful, and God's using them in specifically college ministry and other ways. But oh, I just love that. And then the other thing is that we know we can trust God. And so, when we're standing there wondering what it is we're supposed to be doing or asking those big questions, we know we can trust him. When we hear stories like this, it reaffirms that in our hearts. And so I just really appreciate you guys' vulnerability in just sharing this with us today. [Aaron] So, you know, we're gonna be coming to a close soon, and we were gonna ask you a question about have you had opportunities to use your testimony, and what's awesome is you just now shared your testimony with everything listening. So yes, yes, God randomly gives you opportunities to do that, and you guys probably pursue those, and we just love that. And you already answered that question in talking about who you're sharing it with. But we wanna end off with one question we've been asking everyone on this series, and it's in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Channing] I immediately thought of David, of David was a man after God's own heart, and so of applying that same idea, a marriage after God is one that in all things puts God first, that desires to grow close to him, to look like him. I mean, I see marriage as a picture of Christ and his church, 'cause that's what it is. We are his bride, and the way that he has laid down his life for the church and the way that he is also coming back for, oh, yes, that's so good, I love it, he's coming back for his bride one day, that he hasn't left us in our sin and in the brokenness, but that he's coming victoriously back for us. I see a marriage after God as one that's a vertical and a horizontal component of that, where vertically, we're trying to become more like Jesus day after day and the sanctification of becoming him, but then horizontally, loving each other like the way that Christ loves his church. And so, for me, there's a little bit of that too for me. I was an athlete in high school and thinking about marriage after God makes me think of, we're running after him. [Aaron] Yeah, I love that. [Channing] There's this, I won't stop until I get you kind of idea. [Jennifer] That's great imagery. [Aaron] Yes, yeah. [Channing] Not creepy. [Aaron] No creepy references here, yeah. [Channing] Right, but seriously, for Jessica and for myself, what I desire is for a world to look at our marriage and say, man, they belong to somebody, you know? [Aaron] Yes. [Channing] That there's something different about them, and the only answer to that is Jesus. What about you? [Jessica] I would say a marriage after God, I saw this online the other day, so it's not original to me, but if you think about a triangle, I wish it was, but if you think about a triangle and you have the husband and wife on the bottom two corners and God's at the top corner, and it said if the husband and wife are constantly trying to get closer to God and moving up, you think about it as in moving up in the triangle, they are getting closer to each other. So the key to growing your marriage is growing are relationship with God. The closer you get to him, the closer you get to each other, and I don't remember who said it. It was Channing that said it, but I don't remember how it was a quote by: "Marriage is not to make us happy. "Marriage is to grow us closer to Christ "and to make us holy." I think a marriage after God is making every area in your life, especially your marriage, not about yourself, and make it point to Jesus. [Aaron] Amen, agreed. [Jennifer] So awesome, thank you guys so much. Yeah, agreed, agreed, agreed, and that quote you referenced was from Gary Thomas's Sacred Marriage book, and he's just such an excellent resource for marriages. So I appreciate you sharing that. Thank you guys so much for being on the show with us today. We really appreciate, again, your vulnerability and in sharing your testimony and encouraging people who are listening to consider the uniqueness of their marriage, the uniqueness of their testimonies, and how they can be using them today, 'cause of course the Lord's inviting us to use what he's given us for his glory. So, I just wanna thank you guys for being with us today. [Aaron] Yeah, and you guys are a marriage after God, and we appreciate that. [Channing] Thank y'all so much. [Jessica] Thank you, thank you so much. [Aaron] Yeah, you're welcome. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna close in prayer. So would you join us, and Jennifer, would you? [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for the gift of marriage. Thank you for pouring your thoughtfulness into the way you designed marriage. Thank you for giving us a tool belt that is unique so that we can pursue and do all of the things you have for us to do. Please help us to understand everything that is in our tool belt and show us how we can use it for your glory. We pray we would keep nothing back from you. We pray we would walk humbly with you and with each other. Use us to encourage one another in marriage and affirm the gifts we see in each other. May we also have the courage to confront and repent of any sin in our lives. We pray that we would see all of the little and big ways you are inviting us to join you to spread your gospel of love, salvation, and amazing grace. May the testimony of Jesus be the motivation in our hearts to do what we do, all for your glory. In Jesus's name, amen. [Aaron] Amen. [Chandler and Jessica] Amen. [Aaron] All right, so we just wanna thank everyone for listening to the 10th episode in the series For A Marriage After God. We wanna encourage you to go get a copy of our book please. We wrote it for you. All these interviews we've compiled to encourage you and your marriage just to know that God has a plan for you and has call for your life, and we just wanna invite you to keep tuned in, because we have six more episodes in this series. So we'll see you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at https://marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

You might consider your dog your "baby," but what happens if you decide to add an actual infant to your family? Jessica Jacobson, owner of NYC's Dapper Dog Training, has spent years coaching families on prepping their dogs for the arrival of a tiny non-furry new family member. Annie and she discuss how she built her career, and go over some key things to consider when training a dog for interspecies sibling-hood. Notes: Dapper Dog Training - Marilyn Ullman of the "Discover Your Dream Career" course - Association of Professional Dog Trainers' annual conference - Nursing Your Baby by Karen Pryor - Snuggle Puppies - Annie's baby! - Music: "Hello Ma Baby" ukulele cover by The Channel Drifters --- Partial Transcript: **music** Annie: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Before we get into the meat of today's show, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has left reviews on iTunes. It's a really great way to let people know about this podcast. If you're enjoying it, please do leave a review. And Instagram stories has also been a fun way that people have let others know about the podcast. If you take a screenshot and share in stories and tag School for the Dogs on Instagram, we will reshare it. And it really feels good to know that we're reaching people. So today I am talking to my friend, fellow dog trainer, Jessica Jacobson, who has her own dog training business in New York City. And I wanted to talk to her both to just find out how she got into dog training and built her business, but also specifically because she has something of an expertise on preparing dogs for the arrival of a baby. And I have a baby on the way so I was hoping she might be able to give me some tips on getting Amos, my Yorkiepoo ready for this life event. Jessica: Hello? Hi. My name is Jessica and my company is called Dapper Dog training and I'm stoked to be here. Annie: And we've known each other actually for a long time now. Jessica: Yeah Annie: We met in Atlanta at the APDT dog conference dog conference. Jessica: 30000 years ago. Annie: 2010 it was. I remember it was 2010, cause it was right after I finished Karen Pryor Academy. Jessica: Oh yeah. Annie: Was that the first time you'd ever been to the association? APDT is the Association for Professional Dog Training? Jessica; Yes. I think it was my second conference or maybe my first. I don't remember, but I remember when I saw you and we had gotten together because I think I was listed on the APDT website as having a dog trainer meetup. Annie: Yeah, yeah. Which is actually also, I think how I met Kate was through your meetup. But that was like a real seminal moment for me because it was the first time that I was sort of immersed in a group of dog trainers outside of the two other people in my class at KPA. Jessica: It's like social crack. Annie: Yeah. It was a bit. It was also, it was just so interesting to meet people doing it, like all people from all over the country and also meeting different kinds of dog trainers and cause Association Professional Dog Training is not strictly, um... Full Transcript available at SchoolfortheDogs.com/Podcasts/

How honest are we with our students? How honest are schools with their teachers? And how can we be more honest with ourselves? We discuss with ESL recruitment guru, Jessica Keller.Tracy: Hello, everyone. Today we've got our special podcast and then who has been on our podcast before is...Jessica Keller: Jessica Keller.[laughter]Tracy: Welcome.Jessica: That's me.[laughter]Tracy: Welcome, Jessica.Ross Thorburn: Jessica, thanks for coming on again. Do you want to introduce yourself very briefly for people that missed you last time?Jessica: Yeah, I've been recruiting for English language teachers and actually now other different subject teachers for both Asia and in the US for the last 13 years.Ross: Before that, you were an English teacher, a manager and the regional manager, those kind of things in Japan, right?Jessica: Yes, I did start as a teacher in Japan.Ross: Something happened at work to me fairly recently that I wanted to mention to you guys. We were talking about kids taking English lessons for about two hours a week and this person said to me that our school's competitors all tell parents, "If your kid studies with us, they'll sound like a native speaker after about two years."Jessica: Wow.Ross: I thought that's just a lie, right?Jessica: [laughs]Ross: Like a blatant lie. He said, "Well, we have to do that because that's what our competitors do. We don't really have a choice." I thought, "Well, surely that's going to lead to so many other problems."Anyway, it reminded me of this quote that I heard from Sam Harris who if you've not listened to him before, you should check out his "Waking Up" podcast.Sam Harris: It's amazing to me that we have to get back to a place where being out of harmony with what is demonstrably true pays a penalty.The value we have to all embrace is we have to care to be in register to the truth. Especially, people who are in power, whose decisions affect the lives of millions, we have to care when they are in register or out of register with what's true.Ross: Yes, therefore, we can talk a bit about lying and how lying comes into language teaching, recruitment, Jessica, which you're an expert in, teaching, training, management and all those things.Tracy: What the main areas today we're going to talk about? Lying?Ross: I think we can talk about when we lie and then how we can maybe lie less or at least be more honest.Jessica: Especially in sales. The nature of sales and recruitment for that matter is also just, of course, trying to get people to buy into something. Having a situation where you're trying to sell the benefits of something as opposed to being you listing all the negatives and all the positives.We don't necessarily think of that as lying all the time, but if you're openly leaving information out, then it can be really deceptive.Ross: Let's first of all talk about lying to students and then maybe how we can lie less. Then secondly...Tracy: ...we're going to talk about lying to our teachers and how honest we are in teacher training and management. Then last...Jessica: ...also about lying to ourselves.Lying To StudentsRoss: Let's talk about lying to students. When you, Tracy, taught adults before, what did you feel maybe that people weren't honest about or teachers were not honest about the students?Tracy: I think when the teacher is trying to give students some feedback, especially with adult learners. They have to make sure how much corrective feedback you are giving them because they don't want to lose face in front of other classmates.Even though they made mistakes they have to make sure, "Oh, yeah, really good. Well done," but actually, they didn't do a very good job.Ross: I guess it depends. If you praise someone maybe for trying something, that's honest but I have seen teachers say, "Oh, how else could you say X?" The student says something that's completely wrong and goon. Then the teacher says, "Yeah, well done. That's great." You can still say, "Oh, thanks for trying," or "That's interesting but not quite. But I think..."[laughter]Jessica: "Oh, good try. But here's what it actually is," or something like that.Ross: You're not giving them a lot of help by telling them they're right when they are actually wrong. [laughs]Jessica: Yeah. Also, I think to the original point you had about sales if you're setting an expectation to the parents of the kids who are going to sound like native speakers, and the kids have that pressure, obviously, they're going to be manufacturing and trying to live up to some expectation.That's not really realistic. It almost encourages a lie in some ways and the teachers also for maybe passing them along.Ross: I think that maybe we do have a bit of a lie in general that's like language learning is...We make language learning out to be a little easier than it actually is. I think in schools often will paint a picture for students that's a lot more optimistic than actually should.Tracy: That's a really good point, actually. If we just look at the people who can speak fluent foreign language, they definitely put a lot of efforts and it's not just one year. For example, I studied English for 29 years maybe.Ross: [laughs]Tracy: 29 years. I still made mistakes.Jessica: I have a friend who's sending her daughter overseas for four weeks. The daughter is taking one year of high school language study. My friend is convinced her daughter is going to be fluent and I'm like, "Aargh."Ross: After a year?Jessica: After one year of high school study and four weeks overseas.Ross: Wow.Jessica: She's like, "Well, it'll be really intensive." I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know about that."[laughter]Jessica: "Maybe you're right." I'd love to be wrong on that but it's that people have again these expectations that it's going to be easy to do.Ross: That's so interesting. I wonder where that comes from.Jessica: I think sales is partly the blame, for sure.Tracy: Yeah.Ross: [laughs] Yeah, absolutely. I also wanted to mention here something about how honest are we to students about what people actually say.Jake Whiddon, who's been on the podcast a couple times, he was telling me about he hang out with his daughter for the whole summer. He said, "I watch my daughter play with dozens of different kids and never once did I hear her say, 'Hello,' or 'How are you?' in either English or Chinese."I thought, "That's so interesting." The first thing that we teach...you know how that works. The important thing you can learn in English is, "Hello, how are you? I'm fine, thank you and you?" The majority of people that we teach those phrases to are kids, but actually kids don't say that.Tracy: I partially agree with that. I always hear foreigners talking to Chinese kids if the kids can speak English. They always say, "Hi! What's your name? How are you?"Ross: That argument is self‑justifying. The only reason they ask them those questions is because they know that's what they've been taught in school. I see your point, but I think with that those are interactions between adults and kids. For kids, the majority of interactions they will have will be with other kids.I think what someone really needs to do somewhere, is make up a corpus for children, and find out what the kids say to each other, what language the kids actually use. Then we could start teaching children some language that's going to be genuinely useful to them right now as opposed to learning a bunch of stuff that, when they grow up, they'll be able to use in 15 years' time.Tracy: Fair enough.Lying To TeachersRoss: Let's talk about lying to teachers. One of the reasons that I was very motivated to leave a previous job was, I found out that the Marketing Department, that marketed to teachers online, have much higher salary on their online advertisements than their first‑grade teachers actually get.That struck me as being so dishonest. I was much more serious about finding a job somewhere else. What do you think is the argument as a business, or as a school, why you wouldn't do that?Jessica: Why you wouldn't lie about the salary?Ross: Yeah.Jessica: I feel like that's something you can pretty easily punch a hole through. You don't want to be a dishonest company. As much as you want to get people on board and you want people to be interested in your job more than any other job, if you're known in the industry for being dishonest, then that's going to come through pretty quickly.If you advertise a salary of a certain amount, and then you get a job offer that's significantly lower than that, you're going to feel pretty disappointed, right?Ross: Yeah. Absolutely. How honest do you think schools should be when they're hiring teachers? Like you're saying, you do want to sell the benefits obviously more that the disadvantages. Equally you have to talk about some disadvantages in order to be transparent and give people an accurate picture of what life's going to be like.Jessica: For example, I've had jobs in the past that I've recruited for that have split days off or split shifts in the salary. I haven't put that in the job advertisement, but I'll talk to them about it.Ross: I think the advertisement is an advertisement with the route, but the interview is when you can get into those parts of it.Jessica: Well, admittedly, I know people will be less drawn to an ad if they see it. It's easier just to have a conversation. It's less concrete.Ross: One other thing that I wanted to mention here, related to lying to teachers and being honest to teachers, is I used to work with someone who thought that best way to give feedback to a teacher, who had a complaint, was to tell them, "Oh, hey, Jessica. I observed your class. I thought it was absolutely perfect.""There was nothing wrong with it all. Well done. You're such a great employee. By the way, you might want to read about error correction. That might be something you'd be interested in learning about."This person thought that would be the best way of getting those people that, for example, have a problem with error correction or got a complaint about not correcting enough errors. That would be the best way to get them to improve. Do you not think you're denying that person some avenue for development? That's important information that that person has a right to know.Jessica: Yeah. I am certainly glad that when I was a teacher, it was a while ago, I received feedback on complaints. Lying about something they've received is also deceptive and condescending, like, "We can't tell you this information, because we're afraid you might crack." Right?Ross: Right. How weak do we assume that people are? That they can't handle even direct criticism, just passing on of something negative.Jessica: It also could be that managers fear of conflict. I guess it could be their own thing.Lying To OurselvesRoss: Last one. Lying to ourselves. Something I've wondered with teacher training that we could do to be more honest about it is follow up with people a long time after the training. I think that we often in teacher training courses measure the success by how well the teachers meet our own standards on the course.Whereas I think, what we need to do more on that is call people up six months later, or a year later, and go like, "How did this help you find a job, or improve in your job, or get promoted?"Jessica: Or, "Did it help you?" [laughs]Tracy: Yeah.Ross: Or, "Did it help you at all?" Because, maybe it didn't.Jessica: It's the same with interviews and recruiting. We think we have a really good idea of this person. I do think generally we do, but we have to remember it's not exact science. I remember hiring someone that I was...No, I didn't even hire him.Ross: [laughs]Jessica: I took him over from another recruiter. I helped him with the last stages of his arrival. I was like, "This guy's going to be a complete failure." He completed his contract, and he was eligible for rehire, which blew me away, because he was not someone who I would've wanted to work with. There's people, who I've thought would be great, and they didn't even last probation.Ross: That's something I think that you do that's really great in recruiting. You find out the results afterwards. It's not just like, "We hired this guy. I thought he would be OK," and that's the end of it. You have this great system where you hire people, and then you can find out if they lasted six months, or a year, or if they got promoted, or what happened.It's not just that it's an amazing tool, but I think yours is a really amazing job of getting that feedback and plugging that information back into the system to help you make even better decisions in the future. For a while, when someone got fired, that you hired, did you not go back to your interview notes? Or get your staff to go back to your interview notes and go like, "What did you miss?"Jessica: Yeah. We still do that. We look at anybody who fails probation. We look at what happened. We definitely analyze. It's a post‑mortem, I guess, of everyone.Ross: Imagine if we did that with training as well. We did a post‑mortem like a year later.Jessica: It's not like, "If this teacher fails, it's a fault of the training."Ross: I was more getting at the idea that what the course teaches as good teaching is different from the reality of what schools expect. I think that there is a value in training course like teaching excellence or something as we see it.Also, there's got to be part of this. We're preparing you to go and get a job, and be successful. If we're missing out some skills that actually are going to help you succeed in a sort of a semi‑corporate school environment, or whatever environment you're going into, then maybe we're missing out on something there.Jessica: True.Ross: Cool, all right. Jessica, thanks again very much, for coming on.Jessica: Thanks for having me. It's great to be back. Can't wait for my next trip up here.Ross: Yay. [laughs]Tracy: Oh, great. Bye.Ross: Bye.Jessica: Bye.

Gemma works with female entrepreneurs who have introverted personalities. She loves to help women get more visibility, in spite of the urge to hold back. When she and Jess first started talking, Gemma had tried all kinds of things to get her name out there, but had issues making the sale.   In This Episode Being an introvert in business Being hung up on making the sale Dropping the act and dropping your guard The cost of being a people pleaser The big breakthroughs   “That’s all part of business: it’s about getting the confidence to do the things that scare you the most” - Gemma “I never believed that you could make a difference and make money” - Gemma “The more money you make, the more of a difference you can make as well” - Gemma “With perfection, everyone just wants to knock you off the pedestal” - Jessica “Sometimes we don’t realize that the kindest thing we can do for people is to be direct with them” - Jessica “You can only help the people who want to help themselves” - Jessica “It’s not about me, it’s about my clients. It’s about the women I want to work with” - Gemma   More Jess!http://bit.ly/SLSGroup https://jessicalorimer.com/supersize-your-sales https://jessicalorimer.com/list-building-legend Content DisclaimerThe information contained above is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this article, video or audio are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this article, video or audio. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this article, video or audio. Jessica Lorimer disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this article, video or audio.Disclaimer: Some of these links are for products and services offered by the podcast creator

Oakland entrepreneur Jessica Gray Schipp shares her life's journey of coping with multiple food allergies and her book #AllergicToEverything, a cookbook and guide for people living with multiple food allergies.Transcript:Lisa:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm speaking with Jessica Gray Schipp. She's the author of a new cookbook and guide for people suffering from multiple food allergies.Welcome to the program, Jessica.Jessica:Thank you.Lisa:You just wrote this book called Allergic to Everything, which is an incredible guide and a cookbook for people with allergies. Are you allergic to everything?Jessica:I'm allergic to several things. It's called #Allergic to Everything and I am allergic to wheat, gluten, corn, soy, oats, eggs, shellfish, and possibly sesame.Lisa:You've been through a lot.Jessica:Yes.Lisa:This has taken decades to put this together. How did you figure out what to do first? Tell us your life's journey.Jessica:Well, I knew I was lowered to shellfish when I was a little kid. I was about six and I had an anaphylactic reaction and that was really scary, so I kind of grew up conscious of what it was like to have that happen. And then when I was in my, I would say like mid-twenties, I started getting a lot of hives and odd reactions that I didn't know what it was.Lisa:And this is out east?Jessica:And this is on the East Coast, yeah. And I was just going to literally every type of doctor that I could think of. My mom's a nurse practitioner, so she was sending me to like specialists and using her network and my body just slowly got worse and worse and worse. And then I ended up in Bloomington, Indiana with a friend from grad school and I arrived on her doorstep and I essentially looked like I was just dead. I had sties, I had hives everywhere and I didn't even know kind of how sick I was because I was so used to living that way.But she forced me to a doctor and they were basically like-Lisa:That was the first time you'd seen a doctor about it?Jessica:No, I had been seeing specialists but nobody identified it as food allergies and they didn't really know. So they just kept throwing me on steroids and different medications. And finally at that point in Bloomington, I was just in a place of I'm either dying of cancer or I have food allergies and I have to see what I can do. So I moved back home at that point and I did an elimination diet using all of these different tests I had gotten done with the food stuff because I was basically everything I reacted to. And I think that's also because my system was so hyperactive because it was so irritated all the time that it was triggering responses to more than what I really-Lisa:What does that mean? Elimination Diet? Because you talk about that and you also talk about the symptom tracker that you put together, which is also in the book.Jessica:Well I would say the elimination diet, I didn't start doing it with a symptom tracker. The one that's in the book is kind of a design that I came up with from trial and error and my experiences and what worked for me. I initially used something called a health minder, which I had found on Amazon and it was awesome, but it didn't quite track everything I wanted it to, so I've kind of made my own model.But in terms of the elimination diet, I did that without tracking initially. You basically, a lot of people start with removing the top eight food allergens.Lisa:And what are those?Jessica:Those are wheat, eggs, milk, fish, shellfish, nuts and peanuts.Lisa:Not corn?Jessica:No, corn's not one of the top eight, but I guarantee you this is my philosophy actually because we're shoving it in so much of the food.Lisa:Exactly.Jessica:I'm almost positive that when they revamped that topic eight, that that's going to end up on there [crosstalk]Lisa:I grew up in the Midwest and one of the things I noticed was the simultaneous rise of obesity and GMO corn farming.Jessica:No kidding. No kidding.Lisa:Even though no one is pinpointing that.Jessica:Yeah, and it's cheap.Lisa:Why do you think that's been left off the top?Jessica:I think that just not... I don't know. I think there's not a lot of money in research right now for food allergies. There aren't even really very reliable tests that have been developed. Everything does a lot of false positives. So it's really weird, which going back to the elimination diet, that's really the best way to determine what's triggering things.Lisa:It's very time consuming though, isn't it?Jessica:It's very time consuming. Yeah. Yeah. The process of writing the book took about six years, but the process of getting through the elimination phase and starting to learn about foods probably took like three months but a good year of getting used to it because at first I was just eating a piece of cheese or string cheese, just really basic foods like seed crackers, just nuts, like very plain stuff. And then after I got comfortable with that, I was able to expand and start trying to figure out how to cook the foods that I really missed because there's a lot to be missed when you have to take so much out.Lisa:So when you say "cook the foods you missed," coming up with recipes that would taste somewhat like them because you're not using the ingredients and that they've done in this book.Jessica:Yes. Yeah, so it's really a book of kind of comfort food and super holiday friendly and things just like muffins and breads and pizza and pasta sauce and tacos and it's super kid friendly too, I would say. I think I just had this desire to go back to the foods that I had grown up with-Lisa:Comfort food.Jessica:And figure out... Yeah, exactly, and figure out how to go from there.Lisa:Backing up a little bit, you were in Indiana, you went to this doctor, you started the elimination diet and then?Jessica:And then it was a long process of kind of realizing that I had to start tracking certain things when I would have reactions because you're supposed to add one food back in at a time and then kind of wash yourself for up to basically three days, give or take. Because reactions can happen in many different ways. They can be on your skin, they can be in your digestive system, they can be instant or they can show up in three days. It's kind of a bizarre, bizarre world.Lisa:And the other thing is if you're social at all and you go out to eat at people's homes or in restaurants.Jessica:Yeah, don't trust anybody because nobody knows what they're talking about. And I love my friends and they are, some of them are really amazing and truly have an understanding and have memorized stuff and there are certain people that I really trust. But then there are other people who I know they intend well but they don't know that the shredded cheese that they're using happens to have corn starch on it to prohibit mold. And cornstarch really, really gets to me instantly. I get hives, which I hate. I hate when my symptoms show up on my body.Lisa:Well, in a way that's good because then you know pretty quickly something's wrong.Jessica:Right, that's true.Lisa:In the midst of this discovery. Where were you shopping?Jessica:I was in the Midwest at first and basically I went home pretty quickly after that. I went back to right outside of Washington, DC, in Arlington and I moved back in with my mom, which was hard because I had just gotten my master's and I thought I was going to go into the world rather than a retreat. But yeah, so I went home and my mom has always been very health conscious, so she... There's a little place called Mom's Organic Market and I think it's an Alexandria technically, but it's a great little like health food type of store. And I kind of stuck to stuff like that. And Trader Joe's for just basics, which I still love Trader Joe's today because they just offer so much of high quality stuff at amazing prices.My mom trained me in the organic produce selection and I kind of did like a little work trade. So I did their grocery shopping and did some cooking. And in exchange I got to kind of take some time. I had asthma as a kid. My mom kind of suspected that I had some corn allergies as a kid too because she kind of thought that I would get like fussy when I ate things with corn syrup in it. So there were periods where she suspected it, but nothing was identified until I was 27 when all of this kind of came together.Lisa:How did you get out here?Jessica:I eventually started looking for jobs and I'd kind of always dreamed of California and I found an AmeriCorps position working in East Oakland at a school and the whole idea was kind of like teaching creativity and putting creativity back into the classroom, which my undergrad was an art education so it was a really good fit and they give you a stipend to help you move across. So I ended up driving my little Honda Civic out here and it was pretty beautiful and incredible. And then I ended up, I thought I was coming to California and I was going to be this picturesque mountains and everything. And then I wound up like right in the middle of another city and it was kind of like what?Lisa:You mean like East Oakland?Jessica:Yeah. Being here has been the most incredible part of this journey. The food culture here is phenomenal. Really, you just have access to everythingLisa:People don't realize that unless they've lived elsewhere.Jessica:Yes.Lisa:Because if you're in the Midwest, you have to carve out time to find organic food.Jessica:Yes. Or those little co-ops. The co-ops are like the way to go.Lisa:The co-ops, they're usually near universities.Jessica:Totally. Yeah.Lisa:It's not easy.Jessica:No, no.Lisa:To find good food.Jessica:That's, yeah, 100% I agree with that. Yeah, and I guess that's been the blessing of being here is just that a whole... Like Berkeley Bowl and just a whole new world happened for me and I moved in with a bunch of foodies and learned a lot from them. And so all of these different things kind of came together.Lisa:And how did your allergies, did it improve here or...Jessica:Yeah. Yeah, it's been actually a drastic difference. I think the climate is better for me in some ways. So I think my skin in general has been a lot less irritated, but, but I think my quality of life has been better since moving out here. And I'm not sure exactly why.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Oakland based entrepreneur, Jessica Gray Schipp, the author of a book called Allergic to Everything for people suffering from multiple food allergies.So tell me when you decided to write this book.Jessica:I didn't really specifically decide to write it at first, I just started writing down the recipes that were working for me and I had a little notebook. I've always, you can see my journal here, I always have a journal. And so I just kind of started writing down what was working and I had some friends over for dinner and my friend Phil had asked me like, "What is that recipe? How did you do that? I can't even tell it's allergen free," which was kind of this real goal of mine was to trick the people into thinking the food had all their allergens.But yeah, and he looked at the notebook and he was just like, "Jess, you should publish this." And I hadn't considered that and I didn't think of it that way. And then I kind of ran with it.Lisa:And then when you say "ran with it," what are the steps that you took?Jessica:Well, it was more of a jog because I was teaching full time. So I started in the summers when I had my summers off. The first summer I basically typed up this notebook and wound up with about, or I guess it took me two summers to do that, but I wound up with about 115 recipes that I developed. And then more recently, so in August, I actually left my teaching job to do this full time and try to give it a real stab. And I sat down and wrote the guide, which I didn't realize was going to be so lengthy but-Lisa:It's comprehensive. I really enjoyed that.Jessica:Thank you for saying that.Lisa:Well yeah, you...Jessica:Thank you for saying that.Lisa:Not only recipes but you list resources for people, you get into household cleaning substances, that you can make on your own. I was surprised how comprehensive. It's over 200 pages.Jessica:Thank you. Yeah-Lisa:And also what to put in a pantry.Jessica:Right? Like your staples and where to get them and how to do it and you can do it affordably and you can also spend a lot of money on this stuff. There's a million ways to do it. Yeah, and it was fascinating to kind of go in because I think before moving out to California, I hadn't started to consider what was in the products I was using on my skin, for example. I was using really sensitive simple lotions and stuff like that. But for hair-Lisa:But even laundry detergent.Jessica:Or laundry detergent, exactly.Lisa:And people use these softeners and they always smell.Jessica:And they're full of chemicals and it's gross stuff and it irritates sensitive skin even if you don't have allergens. So just kind of all of that stuff has gone into it. And then just simple things like reading ingredient labels.Lisa:Just today I read an article that the USDA, they just announced now that instead of saying whether something has GMO ingredients, genetically modified, now they are opting for bio-engineered or BE on products. Some people think it's to avoid the labeled GMO because that's kind of a bad thing.Jessica:It has a stigma.Lisa:But it also allows companies to choose between the option of either writing out the warning saying, "This contains bio engineered food," include a just a BE label or this code that you have to swipe, which they assume most consumers will not do. It seems like it's a constant battle to get the true ingredients listed because...Jessica:Well, I want to comment on what you were just saying about the labeling of food. I think that that's one of the most frustrating things because you can slap all natural on it and it means absolutely nothing. They allow a lot of loopholes in this kind of stuff, which is why it's so important no matter what to flip the package over and actually read the ingredients.Lisa:Some of these ingredients, you look at them and you don't even know how to say them.Jessica:Well, and that's my rule. I have a 10 ingredient or less rule and you need to be able to pronounce all of them. The chemicals, it just, it's really unreal.Lisa:And this is mostly processed food.Jessica:It's mostly processed food, yeah, that has that.Lisa:So people who are shopping the middle aisles are going to see more of that.Jessica:Correct. Yeah. I'm a big a perimeter shopper now. I go into the middles for my brown rice pasta or some crackers.Lisa:Or olive oils.Jessica:Or olive oil, yeah, definitely loved my olive oil. I've been leaning into avocado oil too. That's-Lisa:And you talk about coconut being a good alternative to corn oils and things like that.Jessica:Yes. I think one of the interesting things was too with my skin, how irritated it was at the beginning of this journey. I started just trying to figure out natural things I could use to moisturize because normal lotion wasn't working. So coconut oil was something that was really, I was just like slathering it on. And it was really, really healing for me, which was interesting because a lot of doctors had told me to try these lotions with oats, which I hadn't realized at first that I was allergic too.There are also gluten free versions, but oats just in general give me a scarf rash. And so it was really weird and it was like making me more and more irritated. So then I started going backwards and doing just really simple like olive oil on my skin and it was amazing.Lisa:The difference.Jessica:And anti-inflammatory and yeah.Lisa:So tell me the difference between allergy and a simple intolerance.Jessica:It shows up differently in symptoms. Some things are more severe and tolerance is like your body and your system just can't handle it.Lisa:Is that worse than an allergy?Jessica:Yeah, because you're hurting yourself and you might not necessarily be aware. Like, if you continue, let's say you're a celiac and you're eating gluten, that can lead to huge complications where your digestive system just stops functioning on its own. There's all these thresholds. But I find all of those areas, like I go into it in the book but at the same time I find, I don't like all of the little narrow paths that they put with this. Like if a food doesn't work for you, I think it's good to stay away from it and find an alternative.Because people talk about food sensitivities and food intolerance and food allergy and what is the difference? And it's confusing but I think with intolerance is really your body won't tolerate it and you just have all these weird symptoms and you're used to living with them. So you go with it and you don't realize what's on the other side when you...Lisa:So it affects your mental health as well.Jessica:Yeah. Oh definitely. I think so hugely.Lisa:In your book, you lay out in a really nice way the daily symptom tracker also sort of a guide for the elimination diets. So this book is something somebody can actually start writing in right away.Jessica:Right.Lisa:Is that your copyrighted food tracker?Jessica:Yes.Lisa:It's not available yet?Jessica:No.Lisa:To the public. How did you finance publishing book? How are you doing it?Jessica:I took everything I had saved up from my teaching salary, which was challenging, and my Grandma Donna passed away a couple years ago and left me a little bit of money and I was going to use it for a business or an investment on a house and I decided to put it into this book because I just really believe in it. So I've put about $25,000 into getting to-Lisa:Of your own personal money.Jessica:Yeah, of my own money, into it now. And to finish the project, I decided to go onto Kickstarter and so the project is live now and it's live through June 17th at 11:11 PM.Lisa:And what are you trying to raise on Kickstarter?Jessica:$33,000.Lisa:And that'll take you to where you need to...Jessica:And that'll take me to where I need to be and to do it properly, to get the editing done and the printing, to mail out the rewards. Shipping is phenomenal when it comes to Kickstarter, which was a really interesting to learn.Lisa:What do you mean?Jessica:I would say about a third of that amount of money is what it costs to actually send the rewards to the backers. It adds up. And if you can do media mail for books, which is great, but if you add in-Lisa:What are your rewards for backers?Jessica:Currently we have the book. I have a dinner party option, so that's kind of low end, high end, and then in the middle there are gift sets so you can do like an apron gift set. I'm really, really big into aprons. I'm in love with them. I started sewing my own and then I just actually added a new reward, which I'm really excited about, which is a grocery tote but also a cooler. So it's kind of like bring it to the grocery store or to the picnic because I know you're carrying all your own food if you're allergic. And I'm trying to keep it really, really simple because it's really about the book at the root of it.Lisa:And how do people find out about a Kickstarter campaign?Jessica:I have a URL that is forwarding right now straight to the Kickstarter so people can go to hashtag, the word hashtag, and the word allergic together, hashtagallergic.com.Lisa:Not the symbol, the word?Jessica:No the word. Yeah, so hashtag written out, allergic written.com and it'll take you right there. But also if you're on Kickstarter you can just type in the word allergic or allergies and it should come right up.Lisa:And you also have a website?Jessica:Yes.Lisa:What is the link to that?Jessica:The website is allergictoeverything.life and on the website, this has been kind of a new experiment and I'm still playing around with it. At first it was a platform to share what was going on with the Kickstarter, but I've been working on starting a blog and sharing some recipes through there. So I don't have a huge collection, but it's something I'm going to keep growing so people can go on there for food, food tips, and I have all my favorite resources. I have recipes for my food allergy purse.Lisa:Do you ever list restaurants that might accommodate allergies in the Bay Area?Jessica:No, but that's something that I am really interested in doing actually. And I think that we live in such a friendly place for that. A couple of days ago, a woman from Toronto who has, that's kind of her mission in the food allergy world. She reviews places you can eat and she does profiles of people. So she did a profile of me and she really wanted to get into the places that you know you can eat and that are friendly. And I think that that's so important and I think we're really lucky on the West Coast to have such-Lisa:We are, but you made a point earlier that it was a good one. Even your friends, let's say someone decides they're going to have you over and you're allergic to allium, which is onions, garlic and all this stuff.Jessica:Right?Lisa:And they say, "There's nothing, I swear to you, there's nothing in this." And yet they use a canned broth.Jessica:Correct.Lisa:In a soup or a sauce, which is full of allium.Jessica:And probably maltodextrin.Lisa:And it doesn't say it on the label. It says "natural ingredients."Jessica:Right. That's the most unfair.Lisa:And so you can't get mad at people, but there needs to be a raising of awareness and that's something that you've done in this book.Jessica:Yeah. And I think that's my biggest motivation for all of this is... Well, it's really to make people's lives easier, learning how to navigate all these little intricacies, but awareness is so important because people just don't know and it's not their fault. It's just a matter of education and...Lisa:I just noticed there's more and more food allergies and I can't help but think that it's our air, it's our water, it's our soil. I don't know if anyone is looking at the root causes of this.Jessica:Yeah, I don't think many people are. I think there's a lot of people burying the root causes.Lisa:You don't mention it in your book either. But depending on where you come from, what you're exposed to.Jessica:One of the things that I think about a lot with that, which gets me a little crazy if I think about it too much, but is the fact that, so I'm able to eat meat, right? And let's say I want to eat a steak, but they're feeding that cow corn, which I'm allergic to.Lisa:GMO corn probably.Jessica:Yeah. So how does it affect me with the end product? And that's just something that is mind boggling and...Lisa:It is, but out here you can actually seek out a butcher that that gets meat from local people who they know what they're feeding the animals. But that's not true in most places.Jessica:Right, and most of the population doesn't have that luxury. And if they do, maybe they can't afford it. There's a lot of barriers to it, but I think it's a really systemic problem that needs to be looked at from the ground up. But when we keep coming up with these new, what did you say it was going to be, BE, on the package?Lisa:Yes, bio engineering.Jessica:And the natural ingredients.Lisa:It's deflecting.Jessica:It's deflecting. It's like the whole sugar thing in the 70s or whenever that whole epidemic started, but it's really incredible the lengths that companies go through to bury the truth from people and to just keep people uneducated.Lisa:Even sugar, it's not so easy in some places to find something made from natural sugar. It's either going to be genetically modified sugar beets or corn.Jessica:Yeah, and sugar is super inflammatory too, so it kind of all comes out the same in your system. But corn syrup, I really, I just really hate that stuff. I just feel like it's toxic and it's in everything.Lisa:What were your biggest challenges along the way or maybe surprises along the way as well in this whole process of getting this book out?Jessica:Well, I'm in the midst of the challenges right now. It's been really hard to connect with the community that I'm trying to connect with because there's a lot of barriers. So-Lisa:What are they?Jessica:I'm part of a lot of groups online for example with like food allergy communities. But I'm not allowed to post my project because it's seen as fundraising or an endorsement of a fundraising project. And same thing with every single organization that I've reached out to and I'm sending thirties of emails a day trying to get people to help me put this out there.So that's been the greatest challenge and the greatest barrier really. This isn't even about profit, it's just about getting it into the hands of people who need it, the hands of people who are struggling or just foodies who want to cook. Because really the book is... Anybody can use it. It's not, you by no means have to be allergic to appreciated.So connecting with people has been challenging and I feel like I've really had to prove myself in ways that have just been shocking to me. I didn't think I would have to beg food allergy people to see me as an authentic person just trying to put a resource out there.Lisa:Any positive surprises or challenges?Jessica:A lot of positive surprises. I've been just in awe of the support of family and friends and I had an amazing launch day, which was just incredible. But just-Lisa:When was your launch date?Jessica:I launched on May 15th during Food Allergy Awareness Week. So the campaign will be a total of 33 days. It ends on June 17th.Lisa:Let's talk about what you're going to do if you do make it. And if you don't make it.Jessica:To make the goal, I need a 1000 people to put $20 into the project. I think it's really feasible. And if the project succeeds, the plan is then I want the rewards to get out to people and the book itself to get out to people by December. So I will just jump right into the editing phase and illustration and then getting the book printed and shipped out.So I've been working with editors and plotting around that. I think it should take about between four and six months. I've given myself a lot of given myself enough padding, I think to make that happen. I really believe in this book and I'm not really focused on what's going to happen if it doesn't work because it's going to work. So on June 17th, I will know and I'm just kind of trusting that the next thing, yeah, will come and it will happen.Lisa:And so then you're going to be busy touring with this book.Jessica:Then I'm going to be really busy. Yeah, if it hasn't been busy enough, Kickstarter has been an adventure. It's a lot of work.Lisa:Let's say you get the book out and you're onto the next thing. Do you know what that's going to be?Jessica:Well I already have a another book in mind that is going to be like #Allergic to Everything Light because I think this book has a lot of comfort, delicious recipes. And I think that my cooking has shifted over time. So I kind of want to put just my newer, lighter. Yeah, just a little bit healthier. Initially, the things that I missed were breads and things with sugar in it and things like that. But no matter what, I've always been a teacher and I'll always be a teacher. So however I can teach, that's what I'll be doing.I was teaching for about five years, everything from yearbook to coaching robotics actually here at Berkeley. I was with high school most recently. And I think something that I think about in the future is teaching on the college level. I've kind of snaked my way up through all the grades and I found a really sweet spot in high school. But I think there's a really sweet spot in young adulthood when you're studying what you want and learning how you can manipulate the world and leave it a better place.Lisa:Do you feel like you've reached your comfort zone of allergies? You have your allergies under control?Jessica:I think I have my allergies under control. I don't always have temptation under control because it's a tempting world when everybody you live with is eating pizza. It's not always that easy not to eat it. Certain things I noticed trigger me and I'm still looking at them, like sesame for example. I kind of think that sesame oil causes me issues, but then I don't always think so. So I don't know. I think it's kind of an ongoing process.Yeah, and something to revisit too because a lot of people end up removing things and their system kind of gets this little break and then they're able to reincorporate them, which I've tried that. I haven't found that to be successful for myself, but I think it's possible for a lot of people, so yeah, I think it's a lifelong.Lisa:In your research, do you think that the human body will evolve to accept these bio engineered or GMO products ultimately?Jessica:I feel like we're evolving to reject them. If you look at just the ratio of wheat in things and the ratio of corn in things and that with the number of people affected by these things and the rate of the increase of allergens being diagnosed, especially in kids, it's outrageous. I don't think that we're helping ourselves. I think we're hiding a lot of things behind big bureaucratic systems.The way that the book is written is to be able to be used by anybody who's dealing with any of the top eight allergens. And this question has come up a lot by people looking at the project, wondering if their child's allergic to dairy and nuts, will they still be able to eat? And the answer is yes because every recipe is going to be flexible and your allergen will be able to be substituted within that. And I would say only 30% of the book probably contains those two items.So even without the flexibility of the recipes, there's still a ton of resources for everybody, but it is friendly to to all top eight allergens. And part of the reason that I wanted to do that is because I know that nobody's journey is the same and nobody's allergens look exactly the same and mine aren't all the top eight, but the top eight are responsible for 90% of the food allergic reactions. So I wanted to try to include as many people as I could.I think the things that made me fall in love with food, I think the food is all about our memories and about our experiences and little things go a long way and food attaches us to memories. And that's how we make memories with each other. And there's just a real sense of comfort in it, whether it was my grandmother taking the time to slice the grapes for the fruit salad and just shows love.Friendsgiving is how I started celebrating Thanksgiving when I came out here and just bringing people together. And I think that food really connects us with each other and with ourselves. And it's a big reflection on how we're taking care of ourselves and I think it's important and I think this book is important. I hope that people will consider supporting the project regardless of whether or not you have food allergies. Because I can practically guarantee, you know somebody who has food allergies and they deserve this resource.Lisa:Well, thank you, Jessica.Jessica:Thank you.Lisa:You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back in two weeks at this same time. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Copywriter Jessica Manuszak joins Kira and Rob to talk all things copy for the 38th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Jessica specializes in capturing the unique voice of her clients. In this interview, Jessica opens up and shares the details of how she’s grown her business over the past couple of years, including... (we added the ellipsis for her benefit—you’ll see why). •  How she became the top-performing salesperson with absurd scripts •  The “mixtape” secret for writing in her client’s voice •  Her process for naming products and services •  How she “justifies her copy” cuts down on edits by using Google Docs •  A step-by-step rundown of her process working with clients •  How she really landed several “big name” clients—she says it was luck : ( •  The thing she hates most that other copywriters keep doing Lots of good ideas and information from a successful copywriter who hasn’t been in the game for decades, but is doing well nonetheless. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Ash Ambirge The Middle Finger Project The Little Mermaid Spotify Scrabble Dictionary Saved by the Bell Acuity Typeform World’s Best Boss Mug Neil Gaiman AAA Dove The Copywriter Club Email Lianna Patch Marian Schembari VerveandVigour.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 38, as we chat with copywriter Jessica Manuszak about her career journey, from working in government to growing her own agency, landing and working with big name clients, finding confidence, and what she sees as the biggest opportunities for copywriters today. Kira: Hi, Jess. Hi, Rob. How’s it going? Rob: Hey guys. Jessica: Oh, hi. I’m good, thanks. Kira: Welcome to the show, Jess. We’ve been waiting. We’ve been waiting for you. Jessica: Oh man. I’m so ready. Kira: So, I think a good place to start, Jess, is just how you ended up in copywriting, especially from government finance. Jessica: It’s funny because it was a completely natural and completely unnatural transition. Right out of college, I went into telemarketing, selling like skeezy online degrees to people who didn’t need them. I was talking to like 74-year-old women, being like, “No, but engineering would really help you with your goals.” It was not good news. But that was the first time … Rob: I can think of a couple of degrees I might want to get, actually. Kira: I know. Jessica: Right, I think we can do that. Kira: Are you still selling? Jessica: Yeah, I’ll hook you up … underwater basket weaving. But that was actually the first time I ever realized how powerful personality can be when you’re selling something. Because everyone else was like, “Oh hello, Jane. Would you like to purchase this degree program?” I was leaving them voicemails, it was like, “Jane, this is Jane from the future and I’m so glad you got that degree,” just like … Kira: Did you really? Jessica: Well, yeah. Kira: Did you really leave those messages? Jessica: Mm-hmm (affirmative), 100 percent. Kira: Wow. Jessica: I actually was the top performing salesperson on my floor while I worked there because of those like just off-the-wall, absurd scripts. So I left that, went to work for a school district, where I was managing a multi-million dollar bond project.

Today we are chatting with Jessica Lawlor. Jess is a communications professional, writer, personal branding expert and speaker in the Philadelphia area. After six years in the corporate PR world, Jessica left her job this spring to run her own communications agency, blog, and brand, and to teach yoga. We chat about her time management now that she is self-employed and how yoga brought new inspiration to her life. Here’s where to find Jessica: Website: http://jessicalawlor.com Yoga: http://jessicalawlor.com/yoga/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/jesslaw Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jessicallawlor Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jessicallawlor/ Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/jessicalawlor/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicalawlor Snapchat: @jessicalawlor Here’s where to find Ashley: Website: https://www.BrooksEditorial.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/brookseditorial Instagram: http://instagram.com/brookseditorial Pinterest: http://pinterest.com/brookseditorial Here’s where to find Abbigail: Website: https://www.InkwellsandImages.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/abbigailekriebs Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbigailekriebs/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/inkwellsandimages/ Mini Book Club: Yes, Please by Amy Poehler Ask Gary Vee by Gary Vaynerchuck The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up by Marie Kondo Maybe In Another Life by Taylor Jenkins Reid Modern Romance by Aziz Ansari Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo Quotes from this Episode: “I have no deadlines, which is a good thing AND a bad thing.” - Jessica “I’m still trying to do my most creative writing first thing in the morning.” - Jessica “You have a chance to get that first energy burst out on whatever is most important.” - Ashley “Having that set amount of time forced me to only work on what was most important for that day.” - Jessica “Online work expands to fill up the time you have available.” - Ashley “I’m trying to be gentle with myself, knowing that I have all these hours ahead of me in a day.” - Jessica “I do my creative work in the morning and my afternoons are a little more social.” - Jessica “The definition of Getting Gutsy is stepping outside of your comfort zone to live a life that makes you truly happy.” - Jessica “Emailing people to be guests on this podcast have been some gutsy moments for Ashley and I.” - Abbigail “It’s worth sitting down to write even if you never get a book deal.” - Ashley “It’s much, much harder to sit down and do the thing that you are passionate about. But the key really is in getting started.” - Jessica “Those goals I have for a couple of years down the line start with writing tomorrow’s blog post.” - Jessica “Sometimes ideas can be exhausting.” - Abbigail “I have found so much creativity through my yoga class and through my yoga teaching.” - Jessica “It doesn’t seem to matter where you are at, someone else is in the same place.” - Abbigail

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Jessica Jackley Co-Founder, kiva.org Date: September 29, 2008 Jessica Jackley: Kiva Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO for the National Center for Women and Information Technology or NCWIT. This is one in a continuing series of interviews that we are doing with women who have started either IT companies or organizations that are based on information technology. We are very excited that we have Jessica Flannery here today from Kiva to talk to us. Also with me is Larry Nelson, from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: It's really a pleasure to be here and I must say we are getting tremendous feedback from not only adults who are having their children listen to some of these interviews, but some of the employers that are looking for more women and more technical people to get into the business which is sometimes a very good step to becoming an entrepreneur. Lucy: Also with me today is Lee Kennedy who is a Director of NCWIT and a serial entrepreneur herself. Right now, her current company is called Tricalix. Hi Lee. How are you? Lee Kennedy: Hi Lucy. Hi Larry. It is so good to be here. Larry: It is. We are the three L's, right? Lucy, Lee and Larry or something. Lucy: Or something. Welcome Jessica. We are very happy to have you with us today and the topic that we are going to talk about, I mean, you're fabulous social entrepreneur, and I think that this whole area of micro-finance and what Kiva is doing is just fascinating. And as part of this interview, we all went and spent time on the Kiva site and just really got lost in all the wonderful stories that are our there. So welcome. Jessica Flannery: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Lucy: Well, for our listeners, I'm sure everybody knows but it bears repeating that Kiva is the first peer to peer micro loan website. It really demonstrates how the Internet can be used to facilitate these meaningful types of connections between people who want to lend money and entrepreneurs all over the world especially in developing countries, how we can all help each other really move the economies ahead. It's a really fascinating website. So Jessica, why don't you just spend a minute and tell us a bit about Kiva. Jessica: Sure. You said it very, very well and very concisely. We are the world's first person to person micro lending website so anybody in the world can go onto the site, browse business profiles and entrepreneur profiles really I should say. Whether that person is a farmer or selling small goods in their village or a seamstress or a restaurant owner, there are all different kinds of small business. And you can lend as little as $25 to that entrepreneur and over time you get updates on that business and then you get paid back. Larry: Wow! Lucy: Well, and Kiva is a fairly young organization. I read someplace that you started a bit of a hobby website and it just exploded. Jessica: Yeah. It's been a very, very busy last four years. Four years ago, I learned about micro-finance and decided that's what I want to do. I quit another job and I went to East Africa for a few months to see it up close and personal. While I was there it was impossible not to be deeply moved by the stories of success of people that I was meeting. People who had used often just a $100 to change their lives and lifted their families out of poverty. So, I became really excited about these stories and wanted to share them with my own friends and family. And as I did that, my husband Matt and I kept asking not just "Oh, this is great. Micro-finance works, but wow, how do we, and our friends and family, how do we enable people to lend money directly to these individuals we're meeting?" So, it started out with a very specific way, very specific context with individuals who we had met face to face in Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda who we wanted to help. We wanted to participate in their amazing stories, and we wanted to see them get to the next level. So what we did was basically Matt came to visit me during his time in East Africa, and then he went back home, built our website. We emailed our friends and family and said "Hey, we have seven businesses in Uganda that we'd like to lend a total of $3,000 to. Do you want to pitch in?" Then overnight that money came in and we sent that along to Uganda. We had a six month kind of beta round with these seven entrepreneurs in Uganda. After the six months they had repaid, we took the word beta off of our website and that launched us. And that was just in October of '05, so not even quite three years ago. Our first year was $500,000 a month, the second year was $13.5 million more, and today we're just around $45 million, and we haven't even finished our third year. So it's grown very rapidly. Lucy: And you have an incredible payback on the loans, incredible payback percent. Jessica: Yeah, it's in a high 90 percentage. That's representative of a micro finance alone, not just our site. Lucy: But wow, that's just and incredible history and such a good cause as well. One of the things that I noticed there was a Soft-tech video on YouTube that I watched that I thought was very interesting. Where you mentioned that you all created the tool that Kiva uses really to match lenders and entrepreneurs without really knowing how the world would use it to your previous story. This gets us to our first question which is around technology, and I thought you would have a really interesting spin on this. You know, how in general do you see technology helping missions like those of Kiva? Slightly different than potentially a four-profit business but you have incredibly interesting uses of technology. So what do you see in the future? Jessica: Kiva does a lot of different things, but our mission is to connect people through lending to alleviate poverty. The real key there is to connect people. The money transfer is very interesting, and technology obviously helps that happened, but what really we care about is this connectivity. Loans happen to be a great tool for poverty alleviation as well as connectivity. I mean, if you lend me something and I have it and I'm fully giving it back to you, you're going to pay a little bit more attention usually, than if you just donate something and I tell you how that's going forever and ever. That back and forth communication is obviously free or a lot less expensive. It's quick. It's real time. You can see on the other side of the planet how this person is waiting right now today for that $200 that's going to allow them to start their business. So there are all these elements, but then technology makes it faster, more efficient, less expensive and just overall easier to have that human connection happen. Very specifically while I said the money is not the point, it's a great tool for a lot of things. For example, we've had a lot of help from great technology leaders out there that we've been able to leverage. So PayPal, we're the first non-profit to have PayPal generously agree to provide free payment transactions. So we have literally zero variable costs for sending these little bits of money back and forth all around the planet every day. Lucy: Well, one thing too, I'm a technologist so I'll get off this question in just a minute. I know Larry and Lee are looking at me like "Let's move off the technology." But I do have one more thing to observe here, because this is a different kind of interview than we've done. There is a whole growing area called ICT for D which is Information and Communication Technology for Developing World and one of the things that I have read that you either have done or will do is you make an offline browser so that people can conserve power on their computer, sort of a low energy kind of browser so they don't have to be always plugged in. That's an example of the type of technology around ICT for D that you have to start thinking about the climates and the situation and the resources that people have all around the world. Jessica: It's been very, very interesting for us to see, even how sometimes we'll have really wonderful generous lenders say, "Hey, I also want to donate financially or otherwise." And let's say they send a great batch of brand new video cameras for us to send out to the field. Well, sometimes actually a lower tech solution is better, because of the technology that's available in the field. So maybe we don't need the highest quality photos, the highest res photos, maybe a lower tech solution is better. That's been interesting to watch, just figuring out really what's the best and what's the most appropriate tools to get the job done. Lee: That's exactly right. Lucy: So, we normally ask what it is that you love about being an entrepreneur, but since you're working with entrepreneurs it would be great to hear about the stories from the entrepreneurs out of Kiva, as well as what it is that love about this whole environment and the entrepreneurship. Jessica: OK. This is a really good question. What I found is the idea of being an entrepreneur, I think that's really attractive to a lot of people. I think there are some, I don't want to put value judgments on it, good or bad, better or worse, but I think sometimes it has to do with freedom or this idea of being your own boss, or something like that. For me, my introduction to business and my entrepreneurship at all was in Africa seeing people who were gold hunters, or subsistence farmers, or fishermen, or people who were basically entrepreneurship to them was doing what they needed to do every day to survive. It was definitely not an option. They had to do the next thing, figure out the next step to get closer and closer to their goal to find food, and they could survive that day. It was very hand-to-mouth sort of entrepreneurship. It wasn't what we usually think of in Silicon Valley as entrepreneurship being super innovated perhaps or anything like that, but in context it was as innovative as anything else in Silicon Valley would have been, and as much entrepreneurship as anything else that you would see in other places of the world. For me, it's funny. I guess yet that it's true, when you look back at what we've done in Kiva the last four years, great! We have been social entrepreneurs, but we didn't go out thinking, I definitely thought over the years, over the last few years, "Oh, social entrepreneurship. How great! I want to do something like that." Then what happened is you have to get specific. You have to start with something specific. So, we started to do Kiva, a very, very specific mission of Kiva, and then retroactively we're like, "Oh, yeah. I guess that's what we're doing. It's pretty entrepreneurial, isn't it?" It came down to, "We have this mission, and we're going to do whatever we need to do everyday to make it happen. We're going to be scrappy if we need to. We're going to iterate. We're going to put things out there that maybe aren't even perfect. We're going to keep moving, and everyday say, 'What can we do next to meet our goals?'" That's what it felt like to me to be entrepreneurial. I think it's really been informed by the people that originally inspired us in the first place, and these micro-entrepreneurs all over the world. Lucy: You know what? That's just what entrepreneurs do. Everyday they're looking around, trying to figure out what they can do better. Do you have a story or two that you can share with some of the entrepreneurs that have taken loans and been successful, and then paid the loans off? Jessica: Sure. I mean there are so, so many. It's actually one of the hardest questions I get, because really I mean every one of them is amazing. If you want an amazing success story, I can tell you for example there was a woman that really was one of the very first people I ever met in East Africa. She did such amazing stuff. She had started one business, like a charcoal selling business. She had gotten them $800. For that initial business, she did like the equivalent of what a multi-national corporation would do, like all the principals were there. She started the one business, and then she diversified. Then she expanded, not from her local market, she went to markets in other trading centers and other villages. She extended beyond her geographic region. She started five other small businesses of all different types. I mean really things that you really wouldn't think would be related. What she did was she got practice, and then she got very good at seeing market needs and seeing opportunities. So, she had the capitol after time, and she was able to say, "Huh." I think of a very small caring business that you could start with $200 or $300. I think that's what made it. So she did that, and she did the next thing, and the next thing. She just blew me away, because you knew that had she just been dealing in another environment with bigger numbers, she would be the head of a huge multi-national corporation that was doing all sorts of different things really well. So, people like that just always blow me away. I would say truly, it sounds like a bit of a cheesy answer, but the real truth is any story that you read on the Kiva site, there's something to learn, there's something to appreciate, and there's something good. I think say, "Hey! Good job there, " to the entrepreneurs for doing it, because each person is taking a risk even just in accepting a loan, and putting themselves out there and saying, "I'm going to try. I'm going to try to do things differently. I'm going to try and make my life better, and life for my family better." Just taking advantage of that opportunity is something I think should really be applauded, and in and of itself is really a triumph and a great thing, a great thing to see happen. So, that's the hardest question to answer, because all of the entrepreneurs that you can see, I truly find inspirational in something. Lucy: Well, thank you for sharing that. That really is inspirational. Lee: Well, the other thing, and I'm sure somebody has already tumbled to this, there's a business book in this. When you said that she was making all the right entrepreneurial business moves, there's got to be a lot of nuggets of wisdom in there. Larry: You had mentioned offline Jessica, that you are involved with Ashoka? Jessica: Well, yes. I mean, I have found a lot of inspiration in Ashoka over the years, and sort of been introducing the idea of social entrepreneurship through Ashoka. Additionally, he has been honored with the Ashoka Fellowship very recently. We're really excited to be part of that community. Larry: Congratulations! Let me get on with another question here. Who has been either a role model or a mentor in your career, in your life? Jessica: Oh, my goodness! Now, that's the hardest question. I feel like I have been so blessed and so surrounded by encouragers. I mean, can I say like my top five? Larry: OK. Jessica: My parents first and foremost have always given me... Actually, it was really funny. I watched the Emmys last night. I actually don't have a television, but I was with and brother and sister-in-law in L.A., and we were watching the Emmys a little bit. She was saying something funny. She was like, "Thanks to my mom and dad for giving me confidence, that was to the portion that was my looks and ability." It was like "that's what my parents said." My parents first and foremost made it without question an obvious thing, that I could do anything I wanted to in the world. So, that was kind of the foundational piece in a very supportive family. There's been a few others. When I heard Dr. Hamadias speak, his story spoke to me like no others had at that point. That's what propelled me to quit my job and go off and try to figure out micro-finance for myself, and try to do something like what he did, like walk around meet people, listen to their needs, and help. So, he gave me a huge inspiration. Then I guess, the other person I'll mention is Brian Reynolds actually gave me that opportunity to go. He is the Founder and Executive Director of a really great organization called "Village Enterprise Fund." They give $100 grants to entrepreneurs for business creation. They really start people on the very first string of the economic ladder. These are actually folks who are doing such risky things like their systems filing that "If it doesn't rain, everything is lost." Really, really small businesses, who their commissioners wouldn't take a loan probably because they would be not in the right position to do so. Their organization is amazing. I basically met with Brian right around the time I decided I was going to figure out a way to work in micro-finance. He really gave me that opportunity. He listened to me, kind of met me where I was and said, "Hey." Even though I had no skills that I could really name. I had studied philosophy and poetry undergrad. I had done event planning, and administrative things in my job. I really didn't have a lot to go on to say "look, this is why you should hire me, and let me go do micro-finance," but he gave me that chance. On that trip. out to East Africa with Village Enterprise Fund, that's what changed my life, and that's where we had the ideas for Kiva. So, I am absolutely grateful for him, among many, many other in my life over the last decade. There's a lot of people. Lee: Well, that's the good thing about entrepreneurship as well that there are lots of other good people around to encourage you, and to offer wisdom. One piece of wisdom that we've been getting lots of interesting answers too on this particular interview series is the toughest thing you've ever had to do. So, we're curious. What is the toughest thing so far, that you've had to do in your career? Jessica: That is a really good question. I would say without a doubt that it has been...really tough to... you know when you do something that you care about so much, and also something that is like with the social mission I think, it becomes your baby. It becomes like your...I don't know there all these analogies, your right arm, you just feel so attached. It has been a challenge I think to do the work life balance thing in any way because you just feel so driven, so consumed by it, and you want to spend all your waking hours on it, but that can be unhealthy and actually lead to burn out and that sort of thing. So finding the right balance has been probably the biggest challenge and also being removed enough to make objective decisions. You know, it's always a challenge when you are so in love with the work that you get to do. Lee: So speaking of personal and professional balance what do you do to bring balance with all the entrepreneurs you're trying to help, and the changes on the website, how do you manage that? Jessica: Well, I think it's just about kind of knowing what your priorities are and knowing what your boundaries are of what you can control and what you can't and then just working away. I think it is just a daily reminding and daily recalibration saying, "OK, here is what we are about. Here's what we can do. Here's what we can't do and let's just keep moving forward." I think another trick too is just checking yourself often to make sure you are not making decisions others fear or panic in any way. We haven't really... we're an interesting state where we haven't had a competitors per se really, and we don't even think that way. But if we were forced to look at other kind of collaborative organizations out there as competitors, even if we saw them as such, I think it would be the wrong move to be driven to make any sort of decisions, or move to out of the place of fear. Just like it is in life, just kind of knowing who you are, and what you're about, knowing who you're not and just doing that, like the trying to respond to what else is out there or what someone else is doing. I think staying true and pure to your own mission is what it is about. It will make you stay sane. Larry: You have actually kind of covered part of the question I was going to ask you and that is, you've done so many things Jessica and you work with all kinds of people around the world but if you were right now sitting down in front of a young potential entrepreneur, what advice would you give them? Jessica: OK, I have the privilege of getting to do this quite a bit. This is the number one thing I would say, two things. Follow whatever you are really passionate about. It can be something that doesn't make a lot of sense like what do you do when we were passionate about the stories, how do you follow that? We loved them, we celebrated them, we read them ourselves, we laughed, we cried, we just got into those stories and then by sharing those stories, the thing that we are passionate about with the people that we were passionate about, our friends and family, that led to some really great stuff. So just follow as best you can, the stuff that you are passionate about would be number one. Two, if you're going to do something and start something and you really believe that's kind of what you were meant to do next, I would say don't be afraid to start small. In fact, that is really the only way to begin. I just finished my MBA at Stanford. I can't say enough good things about that place and that community. It was amazing. Additionally, it's a place where it is easy to think big very quickly and say "let's go change the world in these huge huge ways and let's have..." you know you don't want to start something unless it's scalable and unless it is going to touch three million people in its first two years or whatever. Easy to say think big or go home and what's your plan for scalability? You need to know that right now. I would say to a budding entrepreneur, don't be afraid, to be very, very specific about what you want to do, and how you want to begin. You should definitely think long term, too. But goodness, it's not a bad thing to start small, and in fact I really really believe that is kind of the way you have to do it and just do a little plug. There's a wonderful man who I would consider a mentor and certainly someone I have looked up to and learned a lot from. His name is Paul Polak, and he wrote a book called "Out of Poverty." He really talks a lot about being in contact like designing whatever you are designing, particularly if it's a program, or a service, or a product to serve the poor, go be with the people that you want to serve. Go get to know them as individuals and design things for individuals not this group of statistic of statistics or the masses. Go meet real people, design for them, start with the, serve them, and then see how you can grow things. That would be my recommendation, don't be afraid to start small and be really passionate about what you are doing because that's the way good things happen. Lucy: Dare I say that that I am old and wizened woman but you know your advice about starting small and don't be afraid to do that, it feels a lot like something I've come to view as being true. You just often don't know what the next turn is going to be. You have to live it a while, and see how things change and mature, and then be opportunistic about which way things are going to go because you often don't see the end. Jessica: Oh, yes and you can't. Lucy: You can't. Jessica: You actually probably sometimes cannot see the next step. It is totally impossible until you make the first one. Lucy: That's fine and that's actually part of the fun, isn't it? Larry: It is part of the fun. It's also by the way a big part of the book that I'm just finishing. Lucy: Oh, you had to plug your book. Larry: "Master and change," yes. Lucy: You had to plug your book. Larry: Oh well. Lucy: Well so I think we have a book here. So I have to ask you though, is there such a big about entrepreneurism and Kiva about teaching the basic elements of entrepreneurship? Jessica: No, not yet, but I think there are about 20 books we can write with them, different angles, different experiences, Web 2.0, the power of connecting people, what have we learned about business from the entrepreneurs out there? There's a lot of potential. Lucy: Oh, absolutely. I look forward to it. Jessica: Yeah, me too. Lucy: You've already really achieved a lot. It's quite inspirational to talk to you and kiva is just such a great organization. What's next for you? We just talked about how sometimes you can't see around the corner, do you have any long term vision that you want to share with our listeners about what's next? Jessica: No, I don't, but I will say that something that's been crazy is just this feeling that... I mean this is like my life dream. You read my favorite business school. I would say it was from three years ago. I would say it was basically someday maybe maybe I will get to be a part of something like this. I feel like the luckiest person in the world and to think that there could be other things in the future just blows my mind. I feel overwhelmed even thinking about it but overall in the most positive way because I already feel like this is my life. If my life ended tomorrow, I would be very a really thankful, happy person because I feel like I've gotten to see my dream kind of come true. Everything else is icing on the cake. What I am trying to do is to stay open to possibility, and learn, and read, and talk to people, and stay open to observing what is going on out there. I am thankful for kiva, and I am thankful for whatever the future hold, but yeah I'll let you know when I know. Larry: All right. Lucy: That has to be the most inspirational thing I have ever heard. I mean just to hear the passion in your voice and the excitement, it gives me goose bumps. I'm happy for you. I hope other people benefit from all the work that you are doing. Jessica: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I just feel very very lucky. Larry: Wow, Jessica I want to thank you for joining us today. This was marvelous plus. Jessica: Thank you. Man 1: By the way you listeners out there, would you pass this interview along to others who you think would be interested. We will make sure that we have a website link to kiva. Say your website. Jessica: It's www.kiva.org. Larry: Sounds wonderful. This has just been great here we are with the National Center for Women and Information Technology. You are doing some great stuff by bringing these messages out for people who are doing wonderful things. Thanks. Lucy: Well thanks and listeners can find these interviews at www.ncwit.org and at w3w3.com. Larry: You bet. Lucy: So thank you very much. Larry: Thank you. Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Jessica JackleyInterview Summary: Jessica is a remarkable social entrepreneur who is Co-Founder and Chief Marketing Officer of www.kiva.org -- the first peer-to-peer micro-lending website. Kiva connects lenders with entrepreneurs from the developing world, empowering them to rise out of poverty. Release Date: September 29, 2008Interview Subject: Jessica JackleyInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 25:02