Podcast appearances and mentions of michael garfield

“When I have a rich, powerful, mind expanding, mind bending conversation like this, I'll need to go and lie down in darkened room afterwards.”– Robert PoyntonThis week's guest is my friend and inspiration Robert Poynton, Founder of Yellow Learning, Associate Fellow at the Saïd Business School at Oxford, and author of three beautiful short books — Do Pause, Do Improvise, and Do Conversation — full of his insights from decades of designing and leading Executive Education leadership programs and hosting creative retreats in Spain.In Future Fossils Episode 196 Robert and I discussed how important it is to learn the principles of improvisation as a way of life. And as he notes in his latest book, most of us are already skilled improvisers because we spend our lives in conversation — not just with each other, but with our environments. How does trying on this frame transform the ways that we relate to them?In this episode we explore conversations as an art form and as a technology, technology as a conversation, and how weird this all gets when so many of us are having what feel like literal conversations with technology itself. Some of our topics:• How do we create fertile “conversational fields”? • How do different media constrain and open conversational possibilities?• What does it mean to “be generous” with our improv partners?• What might the structure of good conversation teach us about engaging with AI — and help us “converse” with the entire history of a person or a culture?At the heart of this project and this episode in particular is the belief that some things are worth doing not because they get us where we want to go, but because they're pleasures in themselves. Good conversations are their own reward, and conversations with Robert are especially rewarding.(Do yourself a favor and join a Yellow Learning cohort sometime…)PS — A bonus for subscribers this week: an extra mini-episode behind the paywall! After Robert and I landed this discussion we kept talking for another hour. Most of it was off-topic but there were some choice bits in there too good to leave on the cutting room floor. If you don't see it below the show notes, you know what to do:Upcoming Events* 24 April – Right Relationship with AI feat. Turquoise Sound and Michael Garfield at The School of Wise Innovation's Spring Cultivator (free & public 90-minute discussion)* 3 May – Book Club: Prophetic Culture by Federico Campagna (patrons-only discussion)* 13 May-14 June – How To Live In The Future at Weirdosphere (five-week online course with ten sessions)Project Links• Explore my full podcast archives and this project's writing/episode archives• Join the Future Fossils Discord for both public and members-only threads• Browse and buy the books we talk about on the show• Explore a map and chat bot grown from nine years of mind-expanding episodes• Meet new allies on the open online commons Wisdom x Technology Discord• Dig into Humans On The Loop's original pitch & planning document• Contact me if you want to work togetherMentioned BooksRobert Poynton — Do Conversation: There's No Such Thing As Small TalkW. Brian Arthur — The Nature of Technology: What It Is and How It EvolvesEthan Mollick — Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AIJennifer Cobb — Cybergrace: The Search for God in The Digital World Mentioned PeopleK Allado-McDowellJ.F. MartelTom MorganDr. BlueKevin KellyErik DavisKen AdamsJake KobrinTheodore ZeldinChris KutarnaMike LargePlatoSam AltmanErothymeGurdjieffKrishnamurtiPeter BrookeFederico CampagnaIain McGilchristDavid BohmCosma ShaliziNick LandYuval HarariTom ChatfieldMax WalucasTerence McKennaJason SilvaAlbert EinsteinIsaac NewtonBaruch SpinozaGottfried LeibnizLudwig WittgensteinCarlo RovelliT.S. EliotCarlos CastanedaBonus Mini-EpisodeOn The Value of Noisy Media, Conversational Protocols for Scaling Interaction, The Joy of Provisional Lists, and Tech Companies as Networks of Relationships“When Apple has a pile of cash of the size it has, it looks permanent. It looks forever. It looks untouchable, and people get attached by that kind of visible sense of scale. But there was a guy I knew many years ago who'd been around Silicon Valley long enough, and knew all the people, all these organisms that we call organizations or brands. And he always saw Silicon Valley as a network of personal relationships, which would every now and then explode into a visible platform or or company like Google or Apple. But he was kinda like, ‘That's not what's going on.' He would always say ‘It's the mycelial network of the relationships between the individuals.'”– Robert PoyntonHere you go: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

My guest today is Simon Yugler, a longtime friend who is a psychedelic therapist, educator, and the author of Psychedelics & the Soul—a mythic guide to deep healing, depth psychology, and cultural repair. With a background steeped in Jungian thought and apprenticed to earth-based wisdom traditions, Simon walks the liminal spaces where myth and medicine meet, where the personal journey of the soul intertwines with the great unfolding of culture.In our conversation, we explore the archetypal landscapes revealed through psychedelic experience—those luminous, perilous realms where the collective unconscious speaks in image and story. We trace the deep roots of mythopoetics and their role in personal and societal transformation, turning to tales such as the Inuit folktale Eagle's Gift to illuminate what it means to undergo initiation in a world that has largely forgotten its rites of passage.We also wade into the turbulent waters of modern politics, asking: What might a mythopoetic lens reveal about our current crises? How do we make sense of an era teetering between collapse and renewal? And what are the practical tools for integrating the peak experiences—psychedelic or otherwise—into the hard soil of daily life?This episode is an invitation to journey into the deep mythic currents shaping our time and the soul's quest to remember its place within them.Simon's Book Tour Dates* Denver, 3/17 w/ Jaz Cadoch (@_jaz.ie) at Greenspaces* Santa Fe, 3/22 w/ Michael Garfield (@michaelgarfield) at The Arc Bookstore* LA, 3/27 w/ Tony Moss (venue to be confirmed)* Bay Area (3/29, venue to be confirmed)* Nevada City, 3/31, at ElixartLINKS* Simon Yugler's Official Website* Book - Psychedelics & The Soul: A Mythic Guide to Psychedelic Healing, Depth Psychology, and Cultural RepairUPCOMING OFFERINGS: Heads up, the doors open for the next round of The Deep Masculine, my 3 month online offering for men (and now women) to repattern your relationship to sex, soul & purpose. Save $100 with Early Bird rate - Ends March 13. SHOW NOTES00:00 Introduction to Archetypal Imagery01:23 Meet the Host and Guest01:58 Exploring Psychedelic Experiences02:16 The Role of Myth in Personal and Societal Transformation02:26 Modern Politics Through a Mythopoetic Lens02:38 Practical Tools for Integrating Peak Experiences02:47 Invitation to Journey into Mythic Currents02:56 Show Support and Website Information03:28 Welcome and Setting the Scene04:45 Simon Yugler's Book and Its Journey07:30 The Genesis of 'Psychedelics and the Soul'10:42 Psychedelics and Mental Health: A Critical Perspective16:30 The Importance of Integration Work17:30 Mythopoetics and Depth Psychology31:44 The Five Skills of Mythopoetic Integration37:10 Assembling the Myths in 'Psychedelics and the Soul'41:37 Interpreting Myths Through Masculinity42:08 The Eagles's Gift: An Inuit Folk Tale44:48 The Hunter's Journey Begins47:03 Encounter with the Fox Spirits51:33 Meeting Mother Eagle56:03 The Hunter's Return and Transformation58:58 Reflections on Masculinity and Myth01:06:51 Mythopoetic Lens on Contemporary Politics Get full access to The Mythic Masculine at themythicmasculine.substack.com/subscribe

Halfway through one of my favorite sci-fi novels, Charles Stross' Accelerando, we tune in to the members of an interstellar first contact mission as they pass the time debating whether the Technological Singularity has happened yet. Spoiler alert: all of them are uploaded minds appearing in a consensus VR environment as various post-human avatars, riding inside a computer the size of a grain of rice on a craft the size of a soda can. To readers it seems like a satire: what, if not this, would it take to convince you we're over the rainbow? But good science fiction provokes us to question the present, and so we must ask: what are we waiting for? Are we still moderns? Is this still Western civilization? Should we be looking forward to the age of machine superintelligence, or has it already happened, like physicist Cosma Shalizi argues in his blog post “The Singularity in Our Past Light-Cone”? Here's a clip from that piece:Exponential yet basically unpredictable growth of technology, rendering long-term extrapolation impossible (even when attempted by geniuses)? Check.Massive, profoundly dis-orienting transformation in the life of humanity, extending to our ecology, mentality and social organization? Check.Annihilation of the age-old constraints of space and time? Check.Embrace of the fusion of humanity and machines? Check.Creation of vast, inhuman distributed systems of information-processing, communication and control, "the coldest of all cold monsters"? Check; we call them "the self-regulating market system" and "modern bureaucracies”.Maybe we ought to consider, like Bruno Latour, that We Have Never Been Modern. Or maybe, as Federico Campagna suggests in Prophetic Culture, each era's inhabitants identify as “modern” and project the “likely story” produced by their process of “worlding” to imagine futures that recede like mirages or rainbows as we approach the horizon of our understanding? By the time we arrive, we have transformed and the mysteries of the ancient and future are conserved. Some Indigenous cultures believe that all animals identify as “people” — perhaps every world is mundane to its native observers, and yet all of them arise out of chaos and ineffability. Science can't answer some questions because it depends on replicability and provisional consensus, and some questions ultimately force us out of attempts to get everything to make sense and into contemplative surrender to our own cognitive limits (no matter how much we augment ourselves).Science will, of course, continue. As Ted Chiang wrote twenty five years ago in his short story “Catching Crumbs from The Table”, advancements in AI and biotechnology could foreseeably “[leave] journals to publish second-hand accounts translated into human language… Journals for human audiences were reduced to vehicles of popularization, and poor ones at that, as even the most brilliant humans found themselves puzzled by translations of the latest findings… Some left the field altogether, but those who stayed shifted their attentions away from original research and toward hermeneutics: interpreting the scientific work of metahumans.”In 2025, living through the superexponential evolution of machine intelligence, this story hits close to home. What will we do when all breakthroughs are made by black box AI systems whose logic and insights evade us? We already have to take large language models on faith, doing our best to conserve a modest sliver of understanding as we resign ourselves to the practical benefits of successful but illegible prediction. But given that scientific progress has largely advanced through the proliferation of hyperspecialist experts who cannot understand one another's research, we should again ask if it were ever the case that we could explain everything, or whether we've just been ignoring the central importance of textual interpretation as we puzzled over the riddles of a world that never owed us any satisfying final answers?Whether we're modern or not, it is time for us to reconsider the foundations of ideas like informed consent, agency, evidence, and personhood. Whether you think we're still waiting around for the future or that we are living it, we live among an ecology of diverse intelligences and require a humbler approach…one strangely similar to that of Medieval serfs and jungle-dwelling foragers than first seems obvious…one that owes back pay to the dismissed disciplines of religion, magic, and myth. Which is why I'm excited to get weird with you in this episode.This week I speak with one of my closest comrades in philosophical investigation, Canadian author and film-maker J.F. Martel. Co-founder and co-host (with Phil Ford) of the internationally-acclaimed Weird Studies Podcast and Weirdosphere online learning platform, tenured para-academic explorer of high strangeness and the liminal zones between the known, unknown, and unknowable, J.F. is a perfect partner with whom to refine inquiry into persistent and tricky questions like:– What is the nature of technology and how does it change as our seemingly-discrete tools and built environments merge into a planet-scale thinking machine?– How can we tell when AI achieves personhood, and what does it take to be “good parents” of beings that are fundamentally beyond our control?– What can religion and fairy tales teach us about living well in a world where our explanatory frameworks fail us?– How can we re-think and re-claim healthy institutions to serve human flourishing after the end of history as we know it?Subscribe, Rate, & Comment on YouTube • Apple Podcasts • SpotifyPlease consider becoming a patron or making tax-deductible monthly contributions at every.org/humansontheloop. (You'll get all the same perks.)J.F.'s LinksReclaimingArt.comWeirdStudies.comWeirdosphere.orgJF on X | Weird Studies Discord & SubRedditReclaiming Art in The Age of Artifice (book)Project LinksRead the project pitch & planning docDig into the full episode and essay archivesJoin the online commons for Wisdom x Technology on DiscordThe Future Fossils Discord Server abides!Contact me about partnerships, consulting, your life, or other mysteriesChapters0:00:00 - Teaser0:01:01 - Introduction0:09:32 - Revisiting Reclaiming Art in The Age of Artifice0:15:12 - What we lose and gain by automating culture0:31:12 - Wendell Berry's poem “A Timbered Choir”0:36:50 - Transcendental, Machinic, Immanental, Imaginal, and Fractal0:46:21 - Black Box Personhood & AI as A 'Thou'1:00:00 - Is AI Magic?1:06:10 - Fairy Tales, Faith, and Submission after Modernity1:10:27 - Do we still need institutions?1:16:59 - Thanks & AnnouncementsBack Catalogue FF 18 - J.F. Martel on Art, Magic, & The Terrifying Zone of Uncanny AwesomenessFF 71 - J.F. Martel on Sequels & Simulacra, Blade Runner 2049 & Stranger Things 2WS 26 Living in a Glass AgeFF 126 - Phil Ford & JF Martel on Weird Studies & Plural RealitiesJRS Currents 064: Michael Garfield and J.F. Martel on Art x AIFF 214 - J.F. Martel, Phil Ford, & Megan Phipps on Weird Cybernetics: Waking Up From The EcstasyFF 231 - Eric Wargo & J.F. Martel on Art as Precognition, Biblically-Accurate A.I., and How to Navigate Ruptures in Space-TimeMentioned MediaWalter Benjamin's “The Work of Art in The Age of Mechanical Reproduction”Erik Hoel's “Curious George and the case of the unconscious culture”New York Encounter (event)Art is dead. Long live Art with Android Jones | Mind Meld 323 Third Eye DropsCosma Shalizi & Henry Farrell's “Artificial Intelligence is a Familiar-Looking Monster”Sigmund Freud's Beyond The Pleasure PrincipleWendell Berry's “A Timbered Choir”Henri Corbin's “Mundus Imaginalis or the Imaginary and the Imaginal”William Irwin Thompson's Imaginary LandscapesDanny Hillis' “The Enlightenment Is Dead. Long Live The Entanglement”Neri Oxman's “The Age of Entanglement”David Krakauer's “Emergent Engineering”Kevin Kelly's Out of ControlFF 150 - A Unifying Meta-Theory of UFOs & The Weird with Sean Esbjörn-HargensFF 223 - Timothy Morton on A New Christian Ecology & Systems Thinking BlasphemyTop Aerospace Scientists Suspect UFOs are Biblical Time Machines | Diana Walsh Pasulka on The Danny Jones PodcastZiwei Xu et al.'s “Hallucination is Inevitable: An Innate Limitation of Large Language Models”Isaac Asimov's FoundationGilles Deleuze's Difference and RepetitionOther MentionsDonna TartMatt CardinMichael PhilipBenoit MandelbrotJames AllenGregory BatesonDavid HumeGottfried LeibnizL. Ron HubbardErik DavisCarl JungJacques LacanAlbert CamusJean-Paul SartreCurt JaimungalStafford BeerCarl SaganJames HillmanPhil FordMarie-Louise von FranzGK ChestertonEdmund Burke This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

Join Alexander McCaig as he sits down with Michael Garfield, host of the Humans on the Loop podcast, evolutionary biologist, and former communications lead for the Santa Fe Institute. Together, they explore the intersection of technology, humanity, and the future of systems thinking in an engaging and thought-provoking conversation. Key Topics Discussed: Michael's Journey to Santa Fe: From Austin, Texas, to working at the prestigious Santa Fe Institute. The pivotal role of his sensitivity to ecological and cultural dynamics. Challenges faced in navigating the politics of science and funding while promoting meaningful research. The Power of Connecting Ideas and Communities: Michael's unique ability to connect disparate ideas and people into cohesive systems. How his podcast, Humans on the Loop, fosters relationships over transactions. Balancing Left and Right Hemispheric Thinking: A deep dive into Ian McGilchrist's work on hemispheric brain functions. The importance of integrating goal-oriented thinking (left brain) with holistic pattern recognition (right brain). Applications in technological design and the human search for meaning. The Limitations of Current Technological Optimizations: How hyper-specialization creates fragility in ecosystems and systems. The historical shift from survival-based technology to productivity-focused systems that disconnect humanity from community and ethics. Evolutionary Lessons for the Future of Humanity: Insights from evolutionary biology and paleontology on how living systems adapt to crises. Why generalists often thrive in periods of ecological collapse or market disruptions. Reimagining Human Relationships with AI: The role of AI in enhancing, not replacing, human intuition and decision-making. Using technology to foster self-awareness and self-responsibility rather than perpetuating productivity traps. Introducing the "Social Memory Complex": Alexander's vision for the future of TARTLE, starting with individual data vaults. Building toward a global model where humanity can collectively leverage its shared knowledge and decision-making capabilities. Rethinking Consent and Agency in Automation: Exploring the dynamics of human interaction with automation: "in the loop," "on the loop," and "out of the loop." How human agency can be redefined in the age of autonomous systems and decentralized technologies. The Role of Complexity Science in Solving Global Challenges: The need to move beyond one-dimensional thinking in science, economics, and governance. Using complexity to bridge gaps between disparate disciplines and communities. The Vision of Humans on the Loop: Why Michael chose the name and how the podcast explores the intersection of ethics, systems, and human agency. The importance of fostering conversations that address the constraints and possibilities of the future. Memorable Quotes: "The problem isn't desire—it's that your desires are too small." – Michael Garfield "Technology should enhance responsibility for human thinking, not take its place." – Alexander McCaig "The more you know, the less you know relative to what exists." – Michael Garfield     Resources Mentioned: Humans on the Loop Podcast: Visit Website     Connect with Michael Garfield: Website: Michael Garfield Podcast: Humans on the Loop Connect with Alexander McCaig & TARTLE: Website: TARTLE.co Schedule a Demo: Learn More About TARTLE   Takeaways for Listeners: This episode challenges us to think critically about our relationship with technology, the decisions we make as individuals, and the role we play in shaping the collective future of humanity. It's a call to embrace complexity, seek relationships over transactions, and engage in deeper self-reflection to unlock humanity's true potential.

Paleontologist-Futurist Michael Garfield works in mind-jazz across genres to help navigating our world of accelerating weirdness and cultivate the curiosity and play for people to thrived in it. Host of Future Fossils, former Digital Media Strategist for The Santa Fe Institute and host of Complexity Podcast, former Community Manager for The Long Now Foundation and Research Analyst for a stealth Mozilla AI spin out, his latest project Humans On The Loop examines agency in the age of automation through conversation, music, essay, social weaving, and the rearing of bespoke language models. LINKTREE SUBSTACK YOUTUBE TWITTER TOOLS: 0:00 – Intro 1:01 – Boss RC-505 mkII Loopstation 16:53 – Brunton Transit pocket compass 25:47 – Black Diamond Storm 500-R headlamp 33:17 – FLUXX by Looney Labs 42:14 – Humans on the Loop Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/VdHo_mkIAkc For show notes and transcript visit: https://kk.org/cooltools/michael-garfield-paleontologist-futurist/ To sign up to be a guest on the show, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/qc496XB6bGbrAEKK7

My guest today is Michael Garfield, a paleontologist, futurist, writer, podcast host and strategic advisor whose “mind-jazz” performances — essays, music and fine art — bridge the worlds of art, science and philosophy. This year, Michael received a $10k O'Shaughnessy Grant for his “Humans On the Loop” discussion series, which explores the nature of agency, power, responsibility and wisdom in the age of automation. This whirlwind discussion is impossible to sum up in a couple of sentences (just look at the number of books & articles mentioned!) Ultimately, it is a conversation about a subject I think about every day: how we can live curious, collaborative and fulfilling lives in our deeply weird, complex, probabilistic world. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. For the full transcript, episode takeaways, and bucketloads of other goodies designed to make you go, “Hmm, that's interesting!”, check out our Substack. Important Links: Michael's Website Humans On The Loop Twitter Future Fossils Substack Show Notes: What is “mind jazz”? Humans “ON” the loop? The Red Queen hypothesis and the power of weirdness Probabilistic thinking & the perils of optimization Context collapse, pernicious convenience & coordination at scale How organisations learn Michael as World Emperor MORE! Books, Articles & Podcasts Mentioned: The Nature of Technology: What It Is and How It Evolves; by W. Brian Arthur Pharmako-AI; by K Allado-McDowell The Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century; by Howard Bloom The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism; by Howard Bloom One Summer: America, 1927; by Bill Bryson Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There; by Lewis Carroll The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World; by David Deutsch Scale Theory: A Nondisciplinary Inquiry; by Joshua DiCaglio Revenge of the Tipping Point: Overstories, Superspreaders and the Rise of Social Engineering; by Malcolm Gladwell The WEIRDest People in the World: How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous; by Joseph Henrich Do Conversation: There's No Such Thing as Small Talk; by Robert Poynton Reality Hunger: A Manifesto; by David Shields The Time Falling Bodies Take to Light: Mythology, Sexuality and the Origins of Culture; by William Irwin Thompson The New Inquisition: Irrational Rationalism and the Citadel of Science; by Robert Anton Wilson Designing Neural Media; by K Allado-McDowell Pace Layering: How Complex Systems Learn and Keep Learning; by Steward Brand Losing Humanity: The Case against Killer Robots; by Bonnie Docherty What happens with digital rights management in the real world?; by Cory Doctorow The Evolution of Surveillance Part 1: Burgess Shale to Google Glass; by Michael Garfield An Introduction to Extitutional Theory; by Jessy Kate Schingler 175 - C. Thi Nguyen on The Seductions of Clarity, Weaponized Games, and Agency as Art; Future Fossils with Michael Garfield

Subscribe, Rate, & Review on YouTube • Spotify • Apple Podcasts✨ About This Episode“The best academic lecture/slam poetry/sermon/magical invocation/attunement and invitation to engage I've experienced in a long while.”– Daniel LindenbargerNext week, after nearly nine years of development, this show grows up to become Humans On The Loop, a transdisciplinary exploration of agency in the age of automation. For long-time listeners of Future Fossils, not much will really change — philosophical investigations in the key of psychedelic futurism, voyages into the edges of what is and can be known, and boldly curious riffs on the immeasurable value of storytelling and imagination have always characterized this show. Many of the episodes I've shared in this last year especially were, effectively, preparations for this latest chapter and play as large a part in my ongoing journey to synthesize and translate everything I've learned from years of independent scholarship and institutional work in esteemed tech, science, and culture orgs…But we are no longer waiting for a weird future to arrive. We're living in it, and shaping it with every act and utterance. So in this “final” episode of Future Fossils before I we bring all of these investigations into the domain of practical applied inquiry, it felt right to ramp from FF to HOTL by sharing my talk and discussion for Stephen Reid's recent online course on Technological Metamodernism. This was a talk that left me feeling very full of hope for what's to come, in which I trace the constellations that connect some of my biggest inspirations, and outline the social transformations I see underway.This is a rapid and dynamic condensation of the big patterns I've noticed in the course of over 500 hours of recorded public dialogue and a lively primer on why I'm focusing on the attention and imagination as the two big forces that will continue to shape our lives in the worlds that come after modernity.It is also just the beginning.Thank you for being part of this adventure.✨ Support & Participate• Become a patron on Substack (my preference) or Patreon(15% off annual memberships until 12/21/24 with the code 15OFF12)• Make a tax-deductible donation to Humans On The Loop• Original paintings available as thank-you gifts for large donors• Hire me as an hourly consultant or advisor on retainer• Buy (most of) the books we discuss from Bookshop.org• Join the Future Fossils Facebook group• Join the Holistic Technology & Wise Innovation and Future Fossils Discord servers• Buy the show's music on Bandcamp — intro “Olympus Mons” from the Martian Arts EP and outro “Sonnet A” from the Double-Edged Sword EP• Read “An Oral History of The End of ‘Reality'”, my story mentioned in this episode.✨ ChaptersChapter 1: Reflections & Announcements (0:00:00)Chapter 2: Co-Evolution with AI and the Limits of Control (0:12:49)Chapter 3: Poetry as the Beginning and End of Scientific Knowledge (0:18:06)Chapter 4: The American Replacement of Nature and the Power of Narrative (0:24:05)Chapter 5: The End of “Reality” & The Beginning of Metamodern Nuance (28:58)Chapter 6: Q&A: Myths, Egregores, and Metamodern Technology vs. Wetiko & Moloch (0:34:52)Chapter 7: Q&A: Chaos Magic & Other Strategies for Navigating Complexity (45:59)Chapter 8: Q&A: Musings on Symbiogenesis & Selfhood (0:50:18)Chapter 9: Q&A: How Do We Legitimize These Approaches? (0:55:42)Chapter 10: Q&A: Why Am I Devoting Myself to Wise Innovation Inquiry? (0:61:01)Chapter 11: Thanks & Closing (0:63:22)✨ Mentioned IndividualsA mostly-complete list generated by Notebook LM and edited by Michael Garfield.* William Irwin Thompson - Historian, poet, and author of The American Replacement of Nature, which argues that American culture is future-oriented. (See Future Fossils 42 & 43.)* Evan “Skytree” Snyder - Electronic music producer, roboticist, and co-founder of Future Fossils who departed after ten episodes. (See Future Fossils 1-10, 53, 174, and 207.)* Stephen Reid - Founder of the Dandelion online learning program and The Psychedelic Society; host of a course on “Technological Metamodernism” in which Garfield presented this talk. (See Future Fossils 226.)* Ken Wilber - Author of numerous books on “AQAL” Integral Theory. (See Michael's 2008 interview with him on Integral Art.)* Friedrich Hölderlin - German poet who famously said, "Poetry is the beginning and the end of all scientific knowledge.”* George Lakoff and Mark Johnson - Authors of Metaphors We Live By, which explores the role of embodied metaphor in shaping thought.* John Vervaeke - Philosopher who, along with others, uses the term “transjective” to describe the interconnected nature of subject and object.* Sean Esbjörn-Hargens - Integral theorist who taught Garfield at JFK University. (See Future Fossils 60, 113, and 150.)* Nathalie Depraz, Francisco Varela, and Pierre Vermersch - Embodied mind theorists and authors of On Becoming Aware, a book about phenomenology.* Kevin Kelly - Techno-optimist Silicon Valley futurist and author on “the expansion of ignorance” in relation to scientific discovery. (See Future Fossils 128, 165, and 203.)* Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, and David Bohm - Paradigm-challenging physicists mentioned who, by science to its limits, developed mystical insights.* Timothy Morton - Philosopher who coined the term “hyperobjects” to refer to entities so vast and complex they defy traditional understanding. (See Future Fossils 223.)* Caleb Scharf - Astrobiologist, author of The Ascent of Information, in which he coins the term “The Dataome” to refer to the planet-scale body of information that constrains human behavior.* Iain McGilchrist - Psychiatrist and author of The Master and His Emissary, known for his work on the divided brain and the importance of right-brained thinking.* Eric Wargo - Anthropologist and science writer who suggests that dreams are precognitive and the brain binds time as a four-dimensional object. (See Future Fossils 117, 171, and 231.)* Regina Rini - Philosopher at York University who coined the term “epistemic backstop of consensus” to describe what photography gave society and what, later, deepfakes have eroded.* Friedrich Nietzsche and Fyodor Dostoevsky - Philosophers and authors who explored the implications of the loss of a universal moral order grounded in religion.* Duncan Barford - An author and figure associated with chaos magic.* Lynn Margulis - Evolutionary biologist known for her work on symbiogenesis and the importance of cooperation in evolution.* Primavera De Filippi - Co-author of Blockchain and the Law: The Rule of Code with Aaron Wright and technology theorist who theorized the "Collaboration Monster."* Joshua Schrei - Ritualist and host of The Emerald Podcast who produced episodes on Guardians and Protectors and on the role of The Seer. (See Future Fossils 219.)* Hunter S. Thompson - American journalist and author known for his gonzo journalism and the quote, "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”* Tim Adalin - Host of the VoiceCraft podcast, on which Garfield discussed complex systems perspectives on pathologies in organizational development. (See Future Fossils 227.) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

Subscribe, Rate, & Review on YouTube • Spotify • Apple Podcasts✨ Support & Participate• Become a patron on Substack (my preference) or Patreon (15% off annual memberships until 12/21 with the code 15OFF12)• Make a tax-deductible donation to Humans On The Loop• Original paintings available as thank-you gifts for large donors• Hire me as an hourly consultant or advisor on retainer• Buy the books we discuss from Bookshop.org• Join the Future Fossils Facebook group• Join the Holistic Technology & Wise Innovation and Future Fossils Discord servers• Buy the show's music on Bandcamp — intro “Olympus Mons” from the Martian Arts EP and outro “Sonnet A” from the Double-Edged Sword EP, coda “You Don't Have To Move → 8:33” from The Age of Reunion✨ About This EpisodeIn this penultimate episode of Future Fossils before we transform into Humans On The Loop, I bring two of my favorite guests and comrades in the so-called “Weirdosphere” back for their first-ever conversation together — and it's a real banger! Probably the most inspired and provocative conversation I've ever had on the nature of time and human creativity.Joining me for this trialogue are Eric Wargo, author of From Nowhere: Artists, Writers, and the Precognitive Imagination (previously on FF episodes 117 and 171), and J.F. Martel, author of Reclaiming Art in The Age of Artifice and co-host (with Phil Ford) of Weird Studies podcast (previously on FF episodes 18, 71, 126, and 214). Our discussion centers on the concept of precognition — the ability to perceive future events — as the mechanism of all human creative activity. Both Eric and J.F. argue that art, like shamanistic practices, acts as a means of accessing and expressing precognitive experiences, often manifesting as seemingly coincidental events or uncanny correspondences between art and reality. We talk about the role of trauma and dissociation in stimulating creative breakthroughs — why there seems to be a direct biological and psychological link between suffering, displacement, and the discovery of radical new insights and modes of being. Can we create without destroying, or are rupture and connection one thing?We also examine how emerging media through the ages have shaped our experience of time. Starting with the earliest Paleolithic artifacts and the role of cave art in facilitating or encoding ecstatic experience, we trace the evolution of art through to how the development “the cut” in modern cinema led to new ideas of causality. Each new medium provides novel ways of thinking about leaps across space and time, and their study offers new points of entry into a unifying philosophy of rupture and discontinuity.Lastly, we explore some of my own most potent and disquieting precognitive experiences in light of Eric's argument that the UFO phenomenon may actually be the braided precognitive experiences of future human beings and symbiotic artificial intelligences — a thesis that sheds new light on everything from the lives and work of Philip K. Dick, Jacques Vallée, Carl Jung, Andrei Tarkovsky, to The Book of Ezekiel.Where we're going, we won't need roads…Speaking of art, UFOs, psychedelic experience, and time machines, here's the standalone music video for the song we discuss in this episode that was inspired by my UFO (or were they time machine) experiences in 2007. I threw it back in as a coda to the episode but in case you want to view it in its original resolution and in the context of the entire album, here you go. The “8:33” section starts around 3:58:✨ ChaptersChapter 1: Introduction (0:00:00)Chapter 2: Precognitive Imagination in the Arts (0:08:57)Chapter 3: The Personal is Precognitive (0:13:34)Chapter 4: The Cut and the Leap (0:22:15)Chapter 5: The Brain as a Fast-Forwarder (0:30:38)Chapter 6: Campfires, TVs, and Flickering Consciousness (0:38:57)Chapter 7: The Trauma of Truth (0:48:04)Chapter 8: Prophecy and The Trash Stratum (0:54:33)Chapter 9: UFOs as Time Machines, The Disappointment of Destiny (1:14:39)Chapter 10: Closing and News on Upcoming Releases (1:20:28)✨ Other MentionsAn inexhaustive list of people, places, and key works mentioned in this episode.* Morgan Robertson: Author of a novel that is believed to have predicted the sinking of the Titanic.* Hunter S. Thompson: Author and journalist.* William Shakespeare: Playwright who wrote Macbeth.* Comte de Lautréamont: A French poet who talked about "the cut" in his work.* Jean Epstein: Author of the book on the philosophy of cinema, The Intelligence of a Machine.* Carl Jung: Psychoanalyst who developed the concept of synchronicity.* Sergei Eisenstein: Filmmaker, and film theorist.* Gilles Deleuze: Philosopher who argued that “difference is more fundamental than identity.”* Cy Twombly: Artist whose work is discussed by Eric Wargo.* Andrei Tarkovsky: Filmmaker who wrote a diary entry quoted in From Nowhere.* Philip K. Dick: Science fiction author whose experiences with precognition and synchronicity are discussed in From Nowhere.* Jacques Vallée: Scientist and ufologist, author of a book about the UFO phenomena called Passport to Magonia.* Diana Pasulka: Academic who studies the UFO phenomenon.* Johnjoe McFadden: Scientist who works on quantum biology.* Henri Bergson: Philosopher known for his work on time and consciousness, is quoted as saying “the universe is a machine for the making of gods.”* Octavia E. Butler: Science fiction author.* Harlan Ellison: Science fiction author.* James Cameron: Filmmaker who directed The Terminator.* Max Simon Ehrlich: Screenwriter who wrote the Star Trek episode The Apple.* Megan Phipps: Guest on the Future Fossils podcast (episode 214).* Michelangelo: Guest on the Future Fossils podcast who discussed Paisley Ontology and precognition with Michael Garfield.* Björk: Musician, whose song "Modern Things" is mentioned.* Greg Bishop: UFO historian.* Terence McKenna: Ethnobotanist and writer who coined the term "immanentize the eschaton.".* Phil Ford: Co-host of the Weird Studies podcast.* Richard Wagner: Composer who was arrested in 1837.* Zozobra: a hundred-year-old effigy burn in Santa Fe, NM.* Esalen Institute: the center of the Human Potential movement, in Big Sur, CA.* The Fort-Da Game: A game observed by Sigmund Freud in which a child throws a toy away and then retrieves it, demonstrating an understanding of object permanence.* The Third Man Factor: A phenomenon experienced by explorers and mountain climbers in extreme survival situations, involving the feeling of a presence accompanying them. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

The brilliant and generous Michael Garfield took the time to chat on the phone about many subjects relatively quickly. Slices of this conversation can be heard in S5E11: Whispers of the Infinite: Uncover Your Core Motivation. This bonus mini-episode includes just those slices... because it's Thanksgiving.Paleontologist-Futurist Michael Garfield helps "Rewild the Singularity" – restoring soul to the philosophy of technology, midwifing new myths for transition, and helping cultivate the curiosity and play we'll need to thrive in our accelerating age.Emerson Dameron's Medicated Minutes is LA's #1 avant-garde personal development program and the only good podcast.Levity saves lives.Support the showSupport the show directly, or get exclusive goodies via Bandcamp.

Self-help shock jock Emerson Dameron takes you on a rockling odyssey through truth, fiction, flotsam, esoterica, and the foothills of High Weirdness designed to awaken your most profound natural, beastly drives. Savor surreal storytelling with gems, jewels, and insights scattered evenly throughout, a potent that will make you rethink reality itself, at least until you realize you're just thinking. Dive into transformative tales and unconventional wisdom. Challenge everything you thought you knew. Whether you're seeking inspiration, a snappy new perspective, or that elusive spark to propel your life diagonally upward into the golden realms of Paradise City, this podcast dares you to look beyond the ordinary and unlock your core motivation in ways you've never had the guts to imagine.Are you afraid to get what you want? You'd better be.Tonight's episode also contains two all-new Bite-Sized Erotic Thrillers!Emerson Dameron's Medicated Minutes is a production of KCHUNG Radio. Donate to KCHUNG.Many thanks to special guest Michael Garfield. Everything else about the show is by Emerson Dameron, who is solely responsible for its content. I love you, personally. Levity saves lives.Support the showSupport the show directly, or get exclusive goodies via Bandcamp.

In this insightful conversation, Maestro Hamilton and Michael Garfield discuss the intersection of technology, consciousness, and the evolution of human society. Michael shares his experiences with AI, the history of technological advancements, and the role psychedelics have played in shaping innovation. The conversation explores themes of hallucination, perception, and how technology both reflects and reshapes our understanding of reality.Join our Newsletter: https://courses.bluemorphoacademy.com/signup__________Paleontologist-Futurist Michael Garfield's work helps people navigate our age of accelerating weirdness and cultivate the curiosity and playfulness we'll need to thrive in it. A boundless generalist and super-connector of people and ideas, he bridges siloed disciplines to deepen public understanding of our complex world and foster pluralistic thinking.As the founder and host of Future Fossils (2016-Present) and The Santa Fe Institute's Complexity Podcast (2019-2023), Michael has recorded almost 500 conversations with artists, scientists, philosophers, and technologists and amassed nearly 2 MM podcast downloads. His work as a "knowledge artist" draws on over twenty years of exploration as a prolific artist, public speaker, author, musician, scientific illustrator, editor, social media manager, research analyst, and teacherIG: https://www.instagram.com/michaelgarfield/?hl=enWebsite: https://linktr.ee/michaelgarfieldPodcast: https://michaelgarfield.substack.com/__________Join our Newsletter: https://courses.bluemorphoacademy.com/signup| Hamilton Souther |Website: hamiltonsouther.com/Instagram: instagram.com/hamiltonsoutherFacebook: | Blue Morpho |Website: bluemorphotours.comWebsite: bluemorphoacademy.comBlue Morpho Instagram: instagram.com/bluemorphoretreatsBlue Morpho Facebook: facebook.com/BlueMorphoAcademy| Listen to all episodes on Audio |Spotify: open.spotify.com/Apple: podcasts.apple.com/blue-morpho-podcast

We kickoff Spooktober with this delightfully gory movie about killer Slugs taking over a small town. A health inspector (Michael Garfield) and two helpers hunt mutant killer slugs that call the sewer home. Release date: February 5, 1988 (USA) Director: Juan Piquer Simón Distributed by: New World Pictures Adapted from: Slugs Music by: Tim Souster Production company: Dister Films

In the episode on "Technological Metamodernism," Vince Fakhoury Horn and Stephen Reid discuss the intersection of technology, metamodernism, and the potential middle paths that navigate between techno-optimism or e/acc and eco-dystopianism or doomerism. They explore how emerging technologies can be aligned with deeper values, such as sovereignty, relationality, and wholenss, while also addressing the challenges of our current technological trajectory​.Episode Links:

In this episode we're joined by Andrés Goméz Emilsson, President and Director of Research at the Qualia Research Institute (QRI), with whom we go deep on their computational approach to probe the mysteries of consciousness and the psychedelic experience — and thereby, perhaps, make the world a substantially happier place. Join us for an adventurous dialogue at the intersections of phenomenology, spirituality, and mathematics…with stops along the way to ask about the neurobiological construction of time's arrow(s), the geometry of DMT space, and the ethical challenges of creating conscious computers. It's a trip…!00:00:00 Intro, Thanks, and News00:11:18 Dialogue Starts00:14:15 The Origins of Qualia Research Institute00:17:37 The Importance of Consciousness Research00:22:18 Phenomenology and Symmetry00:47:38 The Hyperbolic Geometry of DMT00:54:12 Avoiding Dissonance in Psychedelic States00:56:09 Complexity, Music, and Cognitive Processing00:57:22 Future Shock and Technological Overwhelm01:04:28 Pharmacological Adaptations to Technology01:08:39 Temporal Perception and Psychedelics✨ Support This Work:• Subscribe on Substack or Patreon.• Help me pitch my next big projects Humans On The Loop & Jurassic Worlding.• Join the Holistic Technology & Wise Innovation Server, the Future Fossils Server, and Future Fossils FB Group.• Make one-off donations at @futurefossils on Venmo, $manfredmacx on CashApp, or @michaelgarfield on PayPal.• Buy the music on Bandcamp — this episode features “You Don't Have To Move” off The Age of Reunion & “Sonnet A” off Double-Edged Sword.• Buy the books we discuss at the Future Fossils Bookshop.org reading list.• Browse original paintings and prints or commission new work.✨ Related Episodes:212 - Manfred Laubichler & Geoffrey West176 - Richard Doyle128, 165, 203 - Kevin Kelly99, 132, 140 - Erik Davis131 - Jessica Nielson & Link Swanson42, 43 - William Irwin Thompson111, 199 - Android Jones14, 52, 161 - Michael Philip57, 140, 153 - Mitch Mignano60, 113, 150 - Sean Esbjörn-Hargens✨ Mentioned:QRI Research LineagesAndrés' Noonautics Advisory Board BioThe Hyperbolic Geometry of DMT Experiences: Symmetries, Sheets, and Saddled ScenesThe Pseudo-Time ArrowNon-Ordinary States of Consciousness Contest: Psychedelic Cryptography (Innovate)Digital Sentience Requires Solving the Boundary ProblemQualia Mastery (Guided Meditations, Part 1 & 2)Principia Qualia by Michael Edward JohnsonThe Psychedelic Transhumanists: A Virtual Round Table Between Legends Living & Dead by Michael GarfieldOne Half A Manifesto by Jaron LanierJürgen Schmidhuber's HomepageThe Peripheral (TV series adapting William Gibson)Toward A New Evolutionary Paradigm 1.0 by Michael GarfieldAn ‘Integrated Mess of Music Lovers' in Science by Michael Garfield for SFIWestworld (TV series adaptation)Sean McGowanMike JohnsonDavid PearceAndrew GallimoreJim O'ShaughnessyJulio TononiKarl FristonRobin Carhart-HarrisIlya PrigogineJaron LanierSteven LeharRupert SheldrakeWilliam GibsonJürgen SchmidhuberAlain GorielyDarren ZhuHugh EverettSean CarrollIsaac NewtonStephen WolframChris LangtonJames C. ScottH. P. LovecraftNoonautics This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

Paleontologist-Futurist Michael Garfield is devoted to helping navigate our age of accelerating weirdness and helping cultivate the curiosity and play we'll need to thrive in it. As host and producer of Future Fossils Podcast, Michael refuses to be enslaved by a single perspective, creative medium, or intellectual community, walking through the walls between academia and festival culture, theory and practice — speaking and performing everywhere from Moogfest to Burning Man, SXSW to Boom Festival, the Commonwealth Bank of Australia to Long Now's Ignite Talks to The Chapel of Sacred Mirrors.Intro music “Brightside of the Sun,” by Basin and Range. Transition music: “Olympus Mons,” by Michael Garfield. Outro: “Smoke Alarm,” by Carsie Blanton. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit chrisryan.substack.com/subscribe

Writer, podcaster, seeker, and artist, Michael Garfield returns! In this mercurial mind meld, we riff on individuation, high-weirdness, non-human intelligence, Carl Jung, what Robert Anton Wilson called "the chapel perilous,” directed evolution, the limits of empirical knowledge, and more. 

Paleontologist-futurist Michael Garfield helps "Rewild the Singularity" – restoring soul to futurism, midwifing new myths for transition, & exploring the pre and post-history of human-technology co-evolution. SPONSORS https://bubsnaturals.com/DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. https://pxg.com/danny - Get FREE shipping on all equipment. EPISODE LINKS https://www.youtube.com/michaelgarfield https://twitter.com/michaelgarfield https://www.instagram.com/michaelgarfield https://michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny LISTEN ON Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/4VTLG0HiIZaCjH9gE6NFPq Apple - https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1441238966 OUTLINE 00:00 - Paleontology 08:08 - Dinosaur digs 11:53 - Extinction events 29:07 - The Future and science 31:18 - Apocalyptic cults 48:52 - Using AI to stream your dreams 54:30 - Surveillance capitalism 01:07:48 - DMT & dream states 01:29:00 - UFO's 01:40:53 - Kary Mullis 01:47:34 - AI communication w/ animals 02:07:46 - Psycho physical nature of UFOs 02:29:16 - Evolution of human language 02:37:16 - 2006 UFO experience 02:43:31 - Crows picking locks 02:48:01 - Art & music

This week marks the beginning of Embodied Ethics in The Age of A.I., a six-week online course led by writer and teacher Joshua Schrei, host of The Emerald Podcast.  This course is, in large part, inspired by an episode he wrote last year called “So You Want To Be A Sorcerer in The Age of Mythic Powers” — exploring the mythic dimensions of tech innovation and calling for a reclamation of initiatic mystery schools in order to provide us with the requisite self-mastery to wield tools like generative language models. I'm honored to be part of the all-star crew lined up to co-facilitate this course and as part of our pre-game sync and prep, I met with Josh to talk about the forces we've unleashed and how to live responsibly in a world where tech is, in Arthur C. Clarke's words, now undoubtedly “indistinguishable from magic.” We explore the need to pace ourselves and anchor novelty production in ecologies of accountability; what it means to raise kids well amidst the A.I. revolution; and why humans cannot seem to stop invoking power and powers greater than our understanding.If you enjoy this conversation, join us — and several dozen other awesome people — from 4/18-5/16 to learn and grow together and answer the call to better ourselves in service of this great historical unfolding!(Big big thanks to former Center for Humane Technology Innovation Lead Andrew Dunn, founder of The School of Wise Innovation, for everything you've done to help inspire and organize all of this…)Right after this course I will be in Denver for the 2024 ICON Future Human Conference and would love to see you there!  Use my link to grab yourself a conference pass and spend 5/16-5/19 with me and folks like Daniel Schmachtenberger, Marianne Williamson, Ken Wilber, Jeremy Johnson, Layman Pascal, and many more…✨ Support This Show & The Family It Feeds:• Subscribe on Substack or Patreon for COPIOUS extras, including private Discord server channels and MANY secret episodes• Make one-off donations at @futurefossils on Venmo, $manfredmacx on CashApp, or @michaelgarfield on PayPal• Buy the music on Bandcamp. This episode features:Tålmodighed (from Live at The Chillout Gardens, Boom Festival 2016)Gamma Pavonis (from Pavo: Music For Mystery)The Cartographers (from Get Used To Being Everything)• Buy the books we discuss at the Future Fossils Bookshop.org page and I get a small cut from your support of indie booksellers• Browse and buy original paintings and prints or email me to commission new work✨ Mentioned & Related Links:“Modern culture is ‘ahead of the one.' Modern culture is rushing to get somewhere.”* Josh Schrei on Howl In The Wilderness Podcast Episode 120Sam Arbesman's Cabinet of WondersDetermined: A Science of Life Without Free Will by Robert SapolskyRick Rubin and Dan Carlin discuss magicMichael Garfield w/ host Kiki Sanford on This Week In Science Episode 965“Information overload is a personal and societal danger” by Rensselaer Polytechnic InstituteThe Glass Cage by Nicholas CarrFuture Fossils 172 - Tyson Yunkaporta on Indigenous Systems Thinking, Fractal Governance, Ontopunk, and Queering W.E.I.R.D. ModernityCenter for Humane TechnologyThe Age of Em by Robin Hanson“Scan Lovers” from How to Live in The Future by Michael Garfield at Boom Festival 2016Wisdom 2.0 Summit”The Techno-Optimist Manifesto” by Marc AndreessenIron John by Robert Bly“The Model Isn't The Territory, Either” by Douglas RushkoffDarwin's Pharmacy: Sex, Plants, and The Evolution of The Noosphere by Richard Doyle“Chief Philosophy Officer” by Peter Limberg“The Next Tech Backlash Will Be About Hygiene” by Jonnie Penn at TIME MagazineDouglas Rushkoff at Betaworks in 2023: “I Will Not Be Automated”Zohar Atkins (Website, Twitter)My comments on “Hallucination Is Inevitable: An Innate Limitation of Large Language Models” by Xu, et al.“For The Intuitives” (Part 1, Part 2) on The Emerald Podcast This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

I'm honored to share a profound and soulful conversation on science and spirituality with Neil Theise, professor of pathology at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine, discoverer of a new human organ (the interstitium), lifelong Zen meditator, and author of the superb book, Notes on Complexity. ✨ Mentioned & Related Links:Embodied Ethics in The Age of AIComplexity, Culture & Consciousness - a Minds.com panel discussion with Neil Theise, Erik Davis, Michael Garfield, Richard Doyle, and Mitch Mignano hosted by Bill OttmanThe Golden Oecumene (trilogy)by John C. WrightThe End of Burnout by Jonathan MalesicTom Morgan - What Is Important?Divining The World with Joshua Ramey - Weird Studies 22Darwin's Pharmacy by Richard DoyleScience and Nonduality ConferenceJane Prophet & Gordon Selley - Technosphere (1, 2, 3)”The King Is Dead, Long Live The King: Festivals, Science, & Economies of Scale” by Michael GarfieldThe New Yorker on Cormac McCarthy & Mathematical Platonism”Multiverses, Nihilism, and How it Feels to be Alive Right Now” by Like Stories of OldComplexity: Life at the Edge of Chaos by Roger LewinEmergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities, and Software by Steven Johnson✨ Support The Show:• Subscribe on Substack or Patreon for COPIOUS extras, including private Discord server channels and MANY secret episodes• Make one-off donations at @futurefossils on Venmo, $manfredmacx on CashApp, or @michaelgarfield on PayPal• Buy the music on Bandcamp• Buy the books we discuss at the Future Fossils Bookshop.org page and I get a small cut from your support of indie booksellers• Browse and buy original paintings and prints or email me to commission new work✨ Related FF Episodes:14 - WESTWORLD Problems (feat. Michael Phillip of Third Eye Drops)42 - William Irwin Thompson, Part 1 (Thinking Together at the Edge of History)65 - John David Ebert (Hypermodernity & Blade Runner 2049)125 - Stuart Kauffman on Physics, Life, and The Adjacent Possible172 - Tyson Yunkaporta on Indigenous Systems Thinking, Fractal Governance, Ontopunk, and Queering W.E.I.R.D. Modernity176 - Exploring Ecodelia with Richard Doyle, Sophie Strand, and Sam Gandy at the Psilocybin Summit194 - Simon Conway Morris on Convergent Evolution & Creative Mass Extinctions212 - Manfred Laubichler & Geoffrey West on Life In The Anthropocene & Living Inside The Technosphere This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

Michael Garfield Levine joins the Conversation to discuss his solo show “Spinning My Wheels” that chronicles the touching, disturbing and often humorous arc of Levine's Vermont theatre experiences to the streets of New York and, ultimately, a path of acceptance and survival. Levine will perform his show on Thursday, April 11th at the Royall Tyler Theatre on the campus of the University of Vermont in Burlington, Vermont as a prelude to that theatre's 50th Anniversary Celebration on April 12-13.  The 7:00 pm performance is free, but reservations are required by emailing: theatreanddance@uvm.edu. Season 7 Episode 1 Originally posted March 22, 2024

The House approved legislation dubbed, Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act that calls for China tech giant, ByteDance to divest TikTok, and effectively be banned in the U.S. Independent presidential candidate, RFK Jr. wrote, “The so-called ‘Tik Tok ban' is actually a Trojan Horse that could allow the President to ban any website or app merely by asserting that it is ‘controlled or guided' by a foreign adversary.” This is a free speech issue and a matter of limited government vs. legislative overreach that appears to set the stage for widespread abuse. Tonight on Ground Zero (7-10pm, pacific time), Clyde Lewis talks with tech and social media expert, Michael Garfield and host of The Paradigm Shift, JP Bovenzi about TIKTOK'S SICK TALK. Listen Live: https://groundzero.radio Archived Shows: https://aftermath.media

If you care about this show as a public good, consider signing up on Substack or Patreon today for bonus episodes, live calls, and more — or at least mash “subscribe” on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and leave a five-star review.  The unborn future archaeologists who find these episodes inscribed in DNA will thank you!Today I welcome you to join me for a long-awaited trialogue with two of the most thoughtful people I know: Gregory Landua, co-founder of Regen Network (and CEO of Regen Network Dev PBC), a project to bend finance and computing back into service of regenerative land stewardship, and Speaker John Ash, a machine learning engineer and artist/musician who walked away from his fintech job in 2017 in protest of the profit motive to build a democratic language model named Iris based on Cognicism, a new framework for collaboration rooted in shared wisdom. Gregory and John are two of the most prominent and articulate advocates in my network for a third way beyond starry-eyed technoutopianism and desperate doomer thinking. Neither of them pull any punches when it comes to their cutting critiques of extractive capitalism and its capture of both sustainability discourse and potentially emancipatory new information technologies. But both recognize, as I do, that with a deeper and more fundamental understanding of the nature of trust, money, technology, and value that humankind is fully capable of a socioeconomic transformation that could empower us to make every transaction serve our collective well-being.It took me a while to come around to believing in the notion that AI and Web3 could actually heal the damage we're doing to the biosphere, and even now I acknowledge that tools, like people, tend toward the production of harmful externalities when embedded in structurally unjust systems. But as I discussed with evolutionary biologist Manfred Laubichler and physicist Geoffrey West back in episode 212, not all innovation is created equal — and we may be on the cusp of a psychological and cultural reformation that opens up new paths to sanity and right relations. And it's well past time for us to move beyond a “nature good, tech bad” or “tech good, nature bad” duality — both sides come from the same flaw in comprehension that allows us to believe we can escape our natural limits, or that self-destruction will allow us to escape our duties as the steward-servants of our living world.Enjoy this soulful and provocative discussion!✨ Mentioned & Related Links:The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber & David WengrowUSGS on climate change and monsoons in the US SWEarlier recording of Gregory Landua & Speaker John Ash in dialogueGregory Landua on Kevin Owocki's Green Pill PodcastMG on “value creation” as the export of externalitiesSpeaker John Ash on CognicismSpeaker John Ash on Cognition & ConflictSpeaker John Ash on SpotifyAn Oral History of The End of “Reality” by MGAccelerando by Charles StrossGlasshouse by Charles StrossRapture of the Nerds by Charles Stross & Cory Doctorow✨ Support The Show:• Subscribe on Substack or Patreon for COPIOUS extras, including private Discord server channels and MANY secret episodes• Make one-off donations at @futurefossils on Venmo, $manfredmacx on CashApp, or @michaelgarfield on PayPal• Buy the music (intro/outro: “Olympus Mons” & “Sonnet A”; episode codas “Transparent” & “Signal”) on Bandcamp• Buy the books we discuss at the Future Fossils Bookshop.org page and I get a small cut from your support of indie booksellers• Browse and buy original paintings and prints or email me to commission new work✨ Related FF Episodes:213 - Amber Case & Michael Zargham on Entangled Technologies & Design As Governance206 - Scout Rainer Wiley on AI vs. BS Jobs, The Return of Culture, and Eldritch Wonders in The Bright Apocalypse193 - Kimberly Dill on Environmental Philosophy: In Defense of Wildness & Night181 - Jim Rutt on The Pre- and Post-History of GameB178 - Chris Ryan on Exhuming The Human from Our Eldritch Institutions176 - Exploring Ecodelia with Richard Doyle, Sophie Strand, and Sam Gandy at the Psilocybin Summit163 - Bitcoin & Fungal Economies with Toby Kiers & Brandon Quittem146 - Raising Earth Consciousness with Ralph Metzner, Dennis McKenna, Gay Dillingham, Valerie Plame Wilson, Allan Badiner, and Michael Garfield at Synergia Ranch, April 2016141 - Nora Bateson on Warm Data vs. The Cold Equations133 - Brian Swimme on Telling A New Story of Our Universe122 - Magenta Ceiba on Regenerative Everything94 - Mark Nelson on Ecotechnics & Biosphere 2 (Part 1)61 - Jamaica Stevens (On Crisis, Rebirth, Transformation)60 - Sean Esbjörn-Hargens Goes Meta on Everything: Integral Ecology & Impact56 - Sophia Rokhlin (Anarchy, Ecology, Economy, and Shamanism)51 - Daniel Schmachtenberger (Designing A Win-Win World for Everyone) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

✨ Subscribe and review at Apple Podcasts and/or Spotify. Unborn archaeologists thank you!Merry Christmas, Future Fossils!  This is Michael Garfield welcoming you to episode 214 of the podcast that explores our place in time — and as demonstrated in the Dr. Who and Aliens franchises, Blade Runner 2049, and Batman Returns, Christmas is a fruitful backdrop for the pondering of big ideas — a moment in which we can see with greater clarity than usual the unity of everyday mundane humanity and transcendental cosmic matters.  In other words, perfect timing for this episode's conversation about cybernetics and the philosophy of the weird with Megan Phipps, Phil Ford, and J.F. Martel.  Megan studies new media at the University of Amsterdam and writes immensely trippy and insightful papers on topics like Brian Eno, circuit bending, and surveillance capitalism.  Phil is an author and musician who teaches musicology at IU Bloomington and infuses his curricula with the profundity he has polished through years of committed Zen practice.  J.F. is an author, film-maker, and para-academic online course instructor in media studies and magick, who runs Dungeon and Dragons campaigns on the side.  Together, J.F. and Phil host the delicious Weird Studies Podcast, every episode of which triggers in me the Holy Grail of podcast affective listener programming: namely, that I wish I were in the room and part of these discussions.  Luckily, I've had that opportunity before, to talk about my writing on the material agency of glass in our scientific era…and both of them have been on Future Fossils also, both alone and together.  But getting all four of us on one call is a rare and precious thing — and now's the perfect moment to rap about the emergence of the cybernetic era as a kind of numinous event in human history, a divine invasion that transfigures us and forces us to think about which boundaries *should* melt away and which should stay where evolution learned to put them.  You see, we live in an age of multilayer networks — and when our view of humankind transmogrifies from the static image of divine forms to a fluid wash of interweaving processes, the self becomes a metamorphic fugitive and  a work of art. When everything's connected, politics is an aesthetic act and art acquires moral force. Advanced   technologies have granted us godlike powers to reshape the world in our image…but “life finds a way” and there are always gremlins, aliens, dinosaurs, and elves lurking latent in the tidy systems diagrams. The beauty of progress necessarily conceals the ugly externalities, the entropy exported in our efforts to arrange wild nature into an image of our lost garden. So what does cybernetics as a way of seeing change for us in terms of how we live?  What does it mean to be human in an age of very lively, seemingly intelligent machines?    But before we dive headlong into this recording of a conversation so good our first attempt was erased by trickster intervention, let me express my thanks to everyone who has helped me and Future Fossils through a year of (what I hope remains) extraordinary challenge. This show is weird and obstinate in its refusal of clear definition. I follow my muses where they lead me and leave these discussions and soliloquys as fossils of a process of discovery and creativity…and staying true to this defies the logic of the market, which would have us classify ourselves as tidily as possible so we are pre-chewed for the algorithms that determine whether what we make is ever noticed by those over the horizon of organic peer-to-peer suggestion networks. If you're listening, chances are a friend told you about this show — I'd be surprised if you just found it randomly, and definitely not because a sponsor amplified it. I started Future Fossils under pressure from my friends but keep it going as a kind of Benedictine prayer.  However it might seem, it's lonely work — but every now and then I find I've reached somebody where it counts, that I've inspired a major life change or just helped you orient yourselves amidst the wider movements of a transformation that once seemed chaotic and now seems symphonic.  That's why I keep this going.  Every single time I check my email to discover someone else finds value in my work and shows appreciation with a Patreon, Substack, or Bandcamp sub, it makes my day and takes a little of the sting away from my ongoing balancing of kids and unemployment.  I'd like to make this work sustainable in 2024 but I'm still very far from that…so thank you, each and all, for everything you do to help me run this ultramarathon.New patrons I would like to thank include Ian Benouis, EGH2128, Lynn Amores, Robert Cummings, Katie Teague, Slow Dancing Fool, and Brian Mapes.Thank you!  And thank you to EVERYONE who chips in every month, or who has left or will ever leave a good review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or who shares this show with your friends…and a special thanks to Suzy Lanza of Ahara Rasa Ghee for shipping me a sweet little care package with her delicious ghee as a gesture of appreciation for this show — she's not a sponsor but I do endorse her work and recommend you check out iloveghee.com. Lastly, thanks to Noonautics.org for inviting me to join their advisory board and for their continued support of efforts to explore and map and understand the realms beyond.And now onto the main course!  Let's start somewhere else: in the “trash stratum” of a dirty manger, in the mess of our kinship and identity with the nonhuman (animal, vegetable, AND mineral). In the revelation of our contiguous, nested, and modular interbeing — we begin our conversation…guided here by visitations from a higher realm in which communication and control are aspects of some secret third thing that transcends duality. The information age is one in which we cannot separate the bomb from the computer from the drug and in this way, in spite of all the grimy cyberpunk and body horror of our media environment, the trillion-eyed panopticon the Web became appears to us like the archangel Gabriel: “Be not afraid,” dear listeners. Enjoy this awesome conversation, and enjoy your holidays!✨ Support My Work:• Subscribe on Substack, Patreon, and/or Bandcamp for MANY extras, including a insiders-only discussion group and extra channels on our public Discord Server.• Browse my art and buy original paintings and prints (or commission new work).• Show music:  “Sonnet A” from my Double-Edged Sword EP (Bandcamp, Spotify).• Buy the books we mention on the show at the Future Fossils Bookshop.org page.• Make one-off donations directly at @futurefossils on Venmo, $manfredmacx on CashApp, or @michaelgarfield on PayPal.• Save up to $70 on an Apollo Neuro wearable from 12/1-12/31 with my affiliate code.✨ Related Weird Studies Episodes:26 - Living in a Glass Age, with Michael Garfield42 - On Pauline Oliveros, with Kerry O'Brien131 - Knocking on the Abyssal Door: Live at the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute151 - The Real and the Possible: Live at the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, with Jacob G. Foster153 - Celestial Machine: On the Temperance Card in the Tarot157 - Long Live the New Flesh: On David Cronenberg's 'Videodrome'160 - The Way of All Flesh: On John Carpenter's 'The Thing'✨ Related Future Fossils Episodes:18 - JF Martel (Art, Magic, & The Terrifying Zone of Uncanny Awesomeness)65 - John David Ebert (Hypermodernity & Blade Runner 2049)71 - JF Martel (On Sequels & Simulacra, Blade Runner 2049 & Stranger Things 2)117 - Eric Wargo on Time Loops: Precognition, Retrocausation, and the Unconscious126 - Phil Ford & JF Martel on Weird Studies & Plural Realities157 - Phil Ford on Taboo: Time and Belief in Exotica171 - Eric Wargo on Precognitive Dreamwork and The Philosophy of Time Travel212 - Manfred Laubichler & Geoffrey West on Life In The Anthropocene & Living Inside The Technosphere✨ Additional Mentioned & Related Media:Zygmunt Bauman - Liquid ModernityMitch Waldrop - The Dream MachineMichel Houellebecq – The Elementary ParticlesWilliam Shakespeare – OthelloMark Fisher – Flatline Constructs: Gothic Materialism and Cybernetic Theory-FictionEzra Klein interviews Erik Davis — “The Culture Creating A.I. Is Weird. Here's Why That Matters.”Richard Brautigan – “All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace”Megan Phipps interviews Erik Davis — “New Cybernetic Psychedelia”Brian Eno – “The Studio As A Compositional Tool”Michael Garfield's “Reader's Rig” pedalboard teardown feature at Guitar ModerneMichael Garfield – “Advertisement is Psychedelic Art is Advertisement”Phil Ford waxes poetic about Wagner's Ring Cycle on the Brute Norse PodcastDror Poleg on the future of a highly automated economy on Infinite Loops PodcastErik Wargo – “The Passion of The Space Jockey”Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI)Man of Steel (2013)Digibarn.com Jeffrey KripalMichael LevinDadaSam Arbesman on Coding As Magic and The Magic of CodeThank you for listening and for your support! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

This episode is a quick hitter with some thoughts on the special sauce that makes Bittensor unique. Inspired by episode 212 of Michael Garfield's Future Fossils. https://bittensor.com/ https://taostats.io/validators/bittensor-guru-podcast/ Michael Garfield's Future Fossils - Episode 212 w/ Manfred Laubichler and Geoffrey West

Slugs (1988)This week on MMM Erin is joined by Zach Shildwachter as they talk bug horror, their favorite sub-genres and a new killer in town..A health inspector (Michael Garfield) and two helpers hunt mutant killer slugs that call the sewer home.Staring Michael Garfield, Kim Terry and Phillip Mchale. Leave a comment on our social media pages and let us know what you think of this episode or the movie itself. We always love hearing from our listeners.

Episode Title and Show Notes:106 - Michael Garfield & David Krakauer on Evolution, Information, and Jurassic ParkWelcome to Complexity, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm Michael Garfield, producer of this show and host for the last 105 episodes. Since October, 2019, we have brought you with us for far ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe. Today I step down and depart from SFI with one final appearance as the guest of this episode. Our guest host is SFI President David Krakauer, he and I will braid together with nine other conversations from the archives in a retrospective masterclass on how this podcast traced the contours of complexity. We'll look back on episodes with David, Brian Arthur, Geoffrey West, Doyne Farmer, Deborah Gordon, Tyler Marghetis, Simon DeDeo, Caleb Scharf, and Alison Gopnik to thread some of the show's key themes through into windmills and white whales, SFI pursues, and my own life's persistent greatest questions.We'll ask about the implications of a world transformed by science and technology by deeper understanding and prediction and the ever-present knock-on consequences. If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify and consider making a donation or finding other ways to engage with SFI at Santa fe.edu/engage. Thank you each and all for listening. It's been a pleasure and an honor to take you offroad with us over these last years.Follow SFI on social media: Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedIn

On this episode Matt sits down for Part 2 of his conversation with Michael Garfield. Transmedia artist and performance philosopher Michael Garfield helps people navigate our age of accelerating weirdness — and cultivate the curiosity and play we'll need to thrive in it. As a musician, Michael's songs and avant-guitar have opened hearts and minds across four continents. His music has been featured everywhere from PBS to Burning Man to the FDA's clinical trials for MDMA. As an illustrator and painter, Michael draws inspiration from both science and mysticism to make verdant and exultant artwork at countless festivals, live art residencies, and anywhere else he can. As an essayist and host of Future Fossils Podcast, Michael writes on the intersections of evolution, technology, and art, and shares vital conversations from the frontiers of our psychedelic century. During the conversation we learn how Michael's experiences with supernatural beings informed his music, and his thoughts about these beings in general. The two then riff on the power of music, lyrics and their respective musical influences. Lastly they dive into the idea of The King's Blessing, which was given to Michael by Alex Grey, pushing him to create his podcast, Future Fossils. This is part two, listen to part one before this one to get the full story. Enjoy! Find Michael: https://www.instagram.com/michaelgarfield/   Sponsored by Feel Free: https://botanictonics.com/   Use code 'Xian40' at checkout to save $40   --- Sponsored by SHEATH: https://sheathunderwear.com   Use code 'TIMEWHEEL' at checkout to save 20%.

✨ Subscribe to the Green Pill Podcast ✨ https://pod.link/1609313639 

Jim has an extremely wide-ranging discussion with Michael Garfield. They discuss the upcoming book Michael is drafting in public, the exponential scaling of information production, Jurassic Park, mass distributed computation, a new topology for social connectivity, info agents, stereotyping & police violence, a dehumanizing pace of human interaction, Charles Stross's prophetic visions, heuristic induction, strong vs weak social links, restoration of the mesoscale, from the geographic polity to the noetic, the importance of the ground layer, semi-permeable membranes with commons inside them, Pokemon Go & behavioral control, generative AI & intellectual property, creating a commons to benefit culture, circular economies, dividend money & usury, high-temperature search, a future of childlike play, and much more. Michael will be hosting an interactive course with Jeremy Johnson, titled "Jurassic Worlding," beginning on July 18. Those interested should keep an eye on NuraLearning.com. Join the Jurassic Park book club and help Michael research and workshop his next book, Jurassic Worlding: A Palaeontology of The Present, at Michael's Substack. Episode Transcript Michael Garfield on Substack Subconscious (Substack) "The Singularity In Our Past Light-Cone," by Cosma Shalizi Accelerando, by Charles Stross (free online version) "Declaration for The Independence of Cyberspace," by John Perry Barlow John Danaher Interviews Erin Neely on Augmented Reality, Ethics, and Property Rights (Algocracy and Transhumanism Podcast) "The Evolution of Surveillance," by Michael Garfield "Terra Nullius," by Cory Doctorow Future Fossils Reading List Alison Gopnik on Child Development, Elderhood, Caregiving, and A.I. (Complexity Podcast) JRS EP130 - Ken Stanley on Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned

Of the twenty-two figures that make up the major arcana of the tarot, the Chariot is probably the most commonplace. While the tenth arcanum is a wheel, it's The Wheel of Fortune, not just any old wagon wheel. But arcanum VII is neither the Chariot of Fire or the Chariot of the Gods – just the plain old chariot. Usually, it is interpreted as a symbol of the will in its lower and higher aspects. In this episode, Phil notes that the Chariot can also symbolize something as ordinary as new car. Of course, here on Weird Studies, no car is just a car, and we like to think that Youngblood Priest, the protagonist of the 1972 film Super Fly, would agree. A car also a tool, a medium, a token of mastery, an atmospheric disturbance, a means of manifestation, a spaceship... Enroll in THE TWIN PEAKS MYTHOS (https://www.nuralearning.com/twin-peaks-mythos), a 4-week Weird Studies view-along starting June 8th. Listen to Meredith Michael and Gabriel Lubell's podcast, Cosmophonia (https://cosmophonia.podbean.com/). Support us on Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/weirdstudies) and gain access to Phil's podcast on Wagner's Ring Cycle. Download Pierre-Yves Martel's new album, Mer Bleue (https://pierre-yvesmartel.bandcamp.com/album/mer-bleue). Visit the Weird Studies Bookshop (https://bookshop.org/shop/weirdstudies) Find us on Discord (https://discord.com/invite/Jw22CHfGwp) Get the T-shirt design from Cotton Bureau (https://cottonbureau.com/products/can-o-content#/13435958/tee-men-standard-tee-vintage-black-tri-blend-s)! REFERENCES Rachel Pollack, Tarot Wisdom (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9780738713090) Jordan Parks Jr., Super Fly (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069332/) Our Known Friend, Meditations on the Tarot (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9781585421619) Weird Studies, Episode 144 on “Hellraiser” (https://www.weirdstudies.com/144) Plato, Phaedrus (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9780140449747) Vanessa Onwuemezi, Dark Neighborhood (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9781913097707) J. G. Ballard, Crash (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9781250171511) Paul Virilio, War and Cinema (https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/979442) Karl Marx, Grundrisse (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/) Weird Studies, Episode 26 with Michael Garfield (https://www.weirdstudies.com/26)

On this episode Matt sits down with Michael Garfield. Transmedia artist and performance philosopher Michael Garfield helps people navigate our age of accelerating weirdness — and cultivate the curiosity and play we'll need to thrive in it. As a musician, Michael's songs and avant-guitar have opened hearts and minds across four continents. His music has been featured everywhere from PBS to Burning Man to the FDA's clinical trials for MDMA. As an illustrator and painter, Michael draws inspiration from both science and mysticism to make verdant and exultant artwork at countless festivals, live art residencies, and anywhere else he can. As an essayist and host of Future Fossils Podcast, Michael writes on the intersections of evolution, technology, and art, and shares vital conversations from the frontiers of our psychedelic century. During the conversation we learn how Michael's life-long fascination with Dinosaurs and Paleontology developed, his earliest psychedelic experiences including a state of Samadhi (a highly advanced state of meditative consciousness) during a camping trip, how his encounters with Alien craft (UFOs) have informed his views on consciousness, and finally, precognition, time and whether or not the future already exists and if we can peer into it as a human species. This is part one, a future episode will dive in even deeper. Enjoy! Find Michael: https://www.instagram.com/michaelgarfield/   Sponsored by Feel Free: https://botanictonics.com/   Use code 'Xian40' at checkout to save $40   --- Sponsored by SHEATH: https://sheathunderwear.com   Use code 'TIMEWHEEL' at checkout to save 20%.

In this episode I welcome Caveat Magister, resident philosopher of Burning Man, to Future Fossils to discuss his latest book, Turn Your Life Into Art! We talk about transformational cross-country and urban adventures, psychomagic, and the difference between two kinds of experience design — one of which structures something fun but easily consumable and the other which demands our personal transformation at great risk and maybe peril. Get more familiar with your daimon through this conversation and engage the evolutionary edge of your own being as a work of art! This is a fun, weird, twisted rabbit hole I'm glad to share with you.✨ Support Future Fossils:Subscribe anywhere you go for podcasts.Subscribe to the podcast PLUS essays, music, and news on Substack or Patreon.Buy my original paintings or commission new work.Buy my music on Bandcamp! (This episode features vibes from “Biosphere Dreaming”)Or if you're into lo-fi audio, follow me and my listening recommendations on Spotify.This conversation continues with lively and respectful interaction every single day in the members-only Facebook Group and public-facing Discord Server (with patron channels). Join us!✨ Tip Jars:@futurefossils on Venmo$manfredmacx on CashAppmichaelgarfield on PayPal✨ Affiliate Links:• Podium.Page is a very cool new AI service I'm happy to endorse. Sign up here and get three free hours and 50% off your first month.• BioTech Life Sciences makes anti-aging and performance enhancement formulas that work directly at the level of cellular nutrition, both for ingestion and direct topical application. I'm a firm believer in keeping NAD+ levels up and their skin solution helped me erase a year of pandemic burnout from my face.• Help regulate stress, get better sleep, recover from exercise, and/or stay alert and focused without stimulants, with the Apollo Neuro wearable. I have one and while I don't wear it all the time, when I do it's sober healthy drugs.• Musicians, let me recommend you get yourself a Jamstik Studio, the coolest MIDI guitar I've ever played. I LOVE mine. You can hear it playing all the synths on my song about Jurassic Park.✨ Mentioned Media & People (incomplete):Caveat's Patreon“Giving In To Astonishment” by Michael Garfield (audio/text)Vagabonding: An Uncommon Guide To The Art of Long-Term World Travelby Rolf PottsRolf Potts on Future FossilsWikipedia list of incidents at Disney WorldTeam Rodent: How Disney Devours The Worldby Carl HiaasenApocalypse Cabaret on FBThree Questions About Creating Transformational Experiences Anywhereby Caveat MagisterTroy DaytonMicah DaigleJacqueline NorthScout WileyNaomi MostMitch MignanoJake KobrinHenry AndrewsRobin ZiiroConner HabibMichael AngeloTada HozumiAlejandro JodorowskyMore Caveat:FF 153Plutopia PodcastEamon Armstrong's Life Is A Festival PodcastBurning Man PodcastKosmos JournalBook Excerpts This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

This week we talk about the intersections of large language models, the golden age of television and its storytelling mishaps, making one's way through the weirding of the labor economy, and much more with two of my favorite Gen X science fiction aficionados, OG podcaster KMO and our mutual friend Kevin Arthur Wohlmut. In this episode — a standalone continuation to my recent appearance on The KMO Show, we skip like a stone across mentions of every Star Trek series, the collapse of narratives and the social fabric, Westworld HBO, Star Wars Mandalorian vs. Andor vs. Rebels, chatGPT, Blade Runner 2049, Black Mirror, H.P. Lovecraft, the Sheldrake-Abraham-McKenna Trialogues, Charles Stross' Accelerando, Adventure Time, Stanislav Grof's LSD psychotherapy, Francisco Varela, Blake Lemoine's meltdown over Google LaMDA, Integrated Information Theory, biosemiotics, Douglas Hofstadter, Max Tegmarck, Erik Davis, Peter Watts, The Psychedelic Salon, Melanie Mitchell, The Teafaerie, Kevin Kelly, consilience in science, Fight Club, and more…Or, if you prefer, here's a rundown of the episode generated by A.I. c/o my friends at Podium.page:In this episode, I explore an ambitious and well-connected conversation with guests KMO, a seasoned podcaster, and Kevin Walnut [sic], a close friend and supporter of the arts in Santa Fe. We dive deep into their thoughts on the social epistemology crisis, science fiction, deep fakes, and ontology. Additionally, we discuss their opinions on the Star Trek franchise, particularly their critiques of the first two seasons of Star Trek: Picard and Discovery. Through this engaging conversation, we examine the impact of storytelling and the evolution of science fiction in modern culture. We also explore the relationship between identity, media, and artificial intelligence, as well as the ethical implications of creating sentient artificial general intelligence (AGI) and the philosophical questions surrounding AI's impact on society and human existence. Join us for a thought-provoking and in-depth discussion on a variety of topics that will leave you questioning the future of humanity and our relationship with technology.✨ Before we get started, three big announcements!* I am leaving the Santa Fe Institute, in part to write a very ambitious book about technology, art, imagination, and Jurassic Park. You can be a part of the early discussion around this project by joining the Future Fossils Book Club's Jurassic Park live calls — the first of which will be on Saturday, 29 April — open to Substack and Patreon supporters:* Catch me in a Twitter Space with Nxt Museum on Monday 17 April at 11 am PST on a panel discussing “Creative Misuse of Technology” with Minne Atairu, Parag Mital, Caroline Sinders, and hosts Jesse Damiani and Charlotte Kent.* I'm back in Austin this October to play the Astronox Festival at Apache Pass! Check out this amazing lineup on which I appear alongside Juno Reactor, Entheogenic, Goopsteppa, DRRTYWULVZ, and many more great artists!✨ Support Future Fossils:Subscribe anywhere you go for podcastsSubscribe to the podcast PLUS essays, music, and news on Substack or Patreon.Buy my original paintings or commission new work.Buy my music on Bandcamp! (This episode features “A Better Trip” from my recent live album by the same name.)Or if you're into lo-fi audio, follow me and my listening recommendations on Spotify.This conversation continues with lively and respectful interaction every single day in the members-only Future Fossils Facebook Group and Discord server. Join us!Episode cover art by KMO and a whole bouquet of digital image manipulation apps.✨ Tip Jars:@futurefossils on Venmo$manfredmacx on CashAppmichaelgarfield on PayPal✨ Affiliate Links:• These show notes and the transcript were made possible with Podium.Page, a very cool new AI service I'm happy to endorse. Sign up here and get three free hours and 50% off your first month.• BioTech Life Sciences makes anti-aging and performance enhancement formulas that work directly at the level of cellular nutrition, both for ingestion and direct topical application. I'm a firm believer in keeping NAD+ levels up and their skin solution helped me erase a year of pandemic burnout from my face.• Help regulate stress, get better sleep, recover from exercise, and/or stay alert and focused without stimulants, with the Apollo Neuro wearable. I have one and while I don't wear it all the time, when I do it's sober healthy drugs.• Musicians: let me recommend you get yourself a Jamstik Studio, the coolest MIDI guitar I've ever played. I LOVE mine. You can hear it playing all the synths on my song about Jurassic Park.✨ Mentioned Media:KMO Show S01 E01 - 001 - Michael Garfield and Kevin WohlmutAn Edifying Thought on AI by Charles EisensteinIn Defense of Star Trek: Picard & Discovery by Michael GarfieldImprovising Out of Algorithmic Isolation by Michael GarfieldAI and the Transformation of the Human Spirit by Steven Hales(and yes I know it's on Quillette, and no I don't think this automatically disqualifies it)Future Fossils Book Club #1: Blindsight by Peter WattsFF 116 - The Next Ten Billion Years: Ugo Bardi & John Michael Greer as read by Kevin Arthur Wohlmut✨ Related Recent Future Fossils Episodes:FF 198 - Tadaaki Hozumi on Japanese Esotericism, Aliens, Land Spirits, & The Singularity (Part 2)FF 195 - A.I. Art: An Emergency Panel with Julian Picaza, Evo Heyning, Micah Daigle, Jamie Curcio, & Topher SipesFF 187 - Fear & Loathing on the Electronic Frontier with Kevin Welch & David Hensley of EFF-Austin FF 178 - Chris Ryan on Exhuming The Human from Our Eldritch Institutions FF 175 - C. Thi Nguyen on The Seductions of Clarity, Weaponized Games, and Agency as Art ✨ Chapters:0:15:45 - The Substance of Philosophy (58 Seconds)0:24:45 - Complicated TV Narratives and the Internet (104 Seconds)0:30:54 - Humans vs Hosts in Westworld (81 Seconds)0:38:09 - Philosophical Zombies and Artificial Intelligence (89 Seconds)0:43:00 - Popular Franchises Themes (71 Seconds)1:03:27 - Reflections on a Changing Media Landscape (89 Seconds)1:10:45 - The Pathology of Selective Evidence (92 Seconds)1:16:32 - Externalizing Trauma Through Technology (131 Seconds)1:24:51 - From Snow Maker to Thouandsaire (43 Seconds)1:36:48 - The Impact of Boomer Parenting (126 Seconds)✨ Keywords:Social Epistemology, Science Fiction, Deep Fakes, Ontology, Star Trek, Artificial Intelligence, AI Impact, Sentient AGI, Human-Machine Interconnectivity, Consciousness Theory, Westworld, Blade Runner 2049, AI in Economy, AI Companion Chatbots, Unconventional Career Path, AI and Education, AI Content Creation, AI in Media, Turing Test✨ UNEDITED machine-generated transcript generated by podium.page:0:00:00Five four three two one. Go. So it's not like Wayne's world where you say the two and the one silently. Now, Greetings future fossils.0:00:11Welcome to episode two hundred and one of the podcast that explores our place in time I'm your host, Michael Garfield. And this is one of these extra juicy and delicious episodes of the show where I really ratcheted up with our guests and provide you one of these singularity is near kind of ever everything is connected to everything, self organized criticality right at the edge of chaos conversations, deeply embedded in chapel parallel where suddenly the invisible architect picture of our cosmos starts to make itself apparent through the glass bead game of conversation. And I am that I get to share it with you. Our guests this week are KMO, one of the most seasoned and well researched and experienced podcasters that I know. Somebody whose show the Sea Realm was running all the way back in two thousand six, I found him through Eric Davis, who I think most of you know, and I've had on the show a number of times already. And also Kevin Walnut, who is a close friend of mine here in Santa Fe, a just incredible human being, he's probably the strongest single supporter of music that I'm aware of, you know, as far as local scenes are concerned and and supporting people's music online and helping get the word out. He's been instrumental to my family and I am getting ourselves situated here all the way back to when I visited Santa Fe in two thousand eighteen to participate in the Santa Fe Institute's Interplanetary Festival and recorded conversations on that trip John David Ebert and Michael Aaron Cummins. And Ike used so June. About hyper modernity, a two part episode one zero four and one zero five. I highly recommend going back to that, which is really the last time possibly I had a conversation just this incredibly ambitious on the show.0:02:31But first, I want to announce a couple things. One is that I have left the Santa Fe Institute. The other podcast that I have been hosting for them for the last three and a half years, Complexity Podcast, which is substantially more popular in future fossils due to its institutional affiliation is coming to a close, I'm recording one more episode with SFI president David Krakauer next week in which I'm gonna be talking about my upcoming book project. And that episode actually is conjoined with the big announcement that I have for members of the Future Fossil's listening audience and and paid supporters, which is, of course, the Jurassic Park Book Club that starts On April twenty ninth, we're gonna host the first of two video calls where I'm gonna dive deep into the science and philosophy Michael Creighton's most popular work of fiction and its impact on culture and society over the thirty three years since its publication. And then I'm gonna start picking up as many of the podcasts that I had scheduled for complexity and had to cancel upon my departure from SFI. And basically fuse the two shows.0:03:47And I think a lot of you saw this coming. Future fossils is going to level up and become a much more scientific podcast. As I prepare and research the book that I'm writing about Jurassic Park and its legacy and the relationship It has to ILM and SFI and the Institute of Eco Technics. And all of these other visionary projects that sprouted in the eighties and nineties to transition from the analog to the digital the collapse of the boundaries between the real and the virtual, the human and the non human worlds, it's gonna be a very very ambitious book and a very very ambitious book club. And I hope that you will get in there because obviously now I am out in the rain as an independent producer and very much need can benefit from and am deeply grateful for your support for this work in order to make things happen and in order to keep my family fed, get the lights on here with future fossils. So with that, I wanna thank all of the new supporters of the show that have crawled out of the woodwork over the last few weeks, including Raefsler Oingo, Brian in the archaeologist, Philip Rice, Gerald Bilak, Jamie Curcio, Jeff Hanson who bought my music, Kuaime, Mary Castello, VR squared, Nastia teaches, community health com, Ed Mulder, Cody Couiac, bought my music, Simon Heiduke, amazing visionary artist. I recommend you check out, Kayla Peters. Yeah. All of you, I just wow. Thank you so much. It's gonna be a complete melee in this book club. I'm super excited to meet you all. I will send out details about the call details for the twenty ninth sometime in the next few days via a sub tag in Patreon.0:06:09The amount of support that I've received through this transition has been incredible and it's empowering me to do wonderful things for you such as the recently released secret videos of the life sets I performed with comedian Shane Moss supporting him, opening for him here in Santa Fe. His two sold out shows at the Jean Coutu cinema where did the cyber guitar performances. And if you're a subscriber, you can watch me goofing off with my pedal board. There's a ton of material. I'm gonna continue to do that. I've got a lot of really exciting concerts coming up in the next few months that we're gonna get large group and also solo performance recordings from and I'm gonna make those available in a much more resplendent way to supporters as well as the soundtrack to Mark Nelson of the Institute of Eco Technics, his UC San Diego, Art Museum, exhibit retrospective looking at BioSphere two. I'm doing music for that and that's dropping. The the opening of that event is April twenty seventh. There's gonna be a live zoom event for that and then I'm gonna push the music out as well for that.0:07:45So, yeah, thank you all. I really, really appreciate you listening to the show. I am excited to share this episode with you. KMO is just a trove. Of insight and experience. I mean, he's like a perfect entry into the digital history museum that this show was predicated upon. So with that and also, of course, Kevin Willett is just magnificent. And for the record, stick around at the end of the conversation. We have some additional pieces about AI, and I think you're gonna really enjoy it. And yeah, thank you. Here we go. Alright. Cool.0:09:26Well, we just had a lovely hour of discussion for the new KMO podcast. And now I'm here with KMO who is The most inveterate podcaster I know. And I know a lot of them. Early adopts. And I think that weird means what you think it means. Inventor it. Okay. Yes. Hey, answer to both. Go ahead. I mean, you're not yet legless and panhandling. So prefer to think of it in term in terms of August estimation. Yeah. And am I allowed to say Kevin Walnut because I've had you as a host on True. Yeah. My last name was appeared on your show. It hasn't appeared on camos yet, but I don't really care. Okay. Great. Yeah. Karen Arthur Womlett, who is one of the most solid and upstanding and widely read and just generous people, I think I know here in Santa Fe or maybe anywhere. With excellent taste and podcasts. Yes. And who is delicious meat I am sampling right now as probably the first episode of future fossils where I've had an alcoholic beverage in my hand. Well, I mean, it's I haven't deprived myself. Of fun. And I think if you're still listening to the show after all these years, you probably inferred that. But at any rate, Welcome on board. Thank you. Thanks. Pleasure to be here.0:10:49So before we started rolling, I guess, so the whole conversation that we just had for your show camera was very much about my thoughts on the social epistemology crisis and on science fiction and deep fakes and all of these kinds of weird ontology and these kinds of things. But in between calls, we were just talking about how much you detest the first two seasons of Star Trek card and of Discovery. And as somebody, I didn't bother with doing this. I didn't send you this before we spoke, but I actually did write an SIN defense of those shows. No one. Yeah. So I am not attached to my opinion on this, but And I actually do wanna at some point double back and hear storytelling because when he had lunch and he had a bunch of personal life stuff that was really interesting. And juicy and I think worthy of discussion. But simply because it's hot on the rail right now, I wanna hear you talk about Star Trek. And both of you, actually, I know are very big fans of this franchise. I think fans are often the ones from whom a critic is most important and deserved. And so I welcome your unhinged rants. Alright. Well, first, I'll start off by quoting Kevin's brother, the linguist, who says, That which brings us closer to Star Trek is progress. But I'd have to say that which brings us closer to Gene Rottenberry and Rick Berman era Star Trek. Is progress. That which brings us closer to Kurtzmann. What's his first name? Alex. Alex Kurtzmann, Star Trek. Well, that's not even the future. I mean, that's just that's our drama right now with inconsistent Star Trek drag draped over it.0:12:35I liked the first JJ Abrams' Star Trek. I think it was two thousand nine with Chris Pine and Zachary Qinto and Karl Urban and Joey Saldana. I liked the casting. I liked the energy. It was fun. I can still put that movie on and enjoy it. But each one after that just seem to double down on the dumb and just hold that arm's length any of the philosophical stuff that was just amazing from Star Trek: The Next Generation or any of the long term character building, which was like from Deep Space nine.0:13:09And before seven of nine showed up on on Voyager, you really had to be a dedicated Star Trek fan to put up with early season's Voyager, but I did because I am. But then once she came on board and it was hilarious. They brought her onboard. I remember seeing Jerry Ryan in her cat suit on the cover of a magazine and just roll in my eyes and think, oh my gosh, this show is in such deep trouble through sinking to this level to try to save it. But she was brilliant. She was brilliant in that show and she and Robert Percardo as the doctor. I mean, it basically became the seven of nine and the doctor show co starring the rest of the cast of Voyager. And it was so great.0:13:46I love to hear them singing together and just all the dynamics of I'm human, but I was I basically came up in a cybernetic collective and that's much more comfortable to me. And I don't really have the option of going back it. So I gotta make the best of where I am, but I feel really superior to all of you. Is such it was such a charming dynamic. I absolutely loved it. Yes. And then I think a show that is hated even by Star Trek fans Enterprise. Loved Enterprise.0:14:15And, yes, the first three seasons out of four were pretty rough. Actually, the first two were pretty rough. The third season was that Zendy Ark in the the expanse. That was pretty good. And then season four was just astounding. It's like they really found their voice and then what's his name at CBS Paramount.0:14:32He's gone now. He got me too. What's his name? Les Moonves? Said, no. I don't like Star Trek. He couldn't he didn't know the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek. That was his level of engagement.0:14:44And he's I really like J.0:14:46J.0:14:46Abrams. What's that? You mean J. J. Abrams. Yeah. I think J. J. Is I like some of J. Abrams early films. I really like super eight. He's clearly his early films were clearly an homage to, like, eighties, Spielberg stuff, and Spielberg gets the emotional beats right, and JJ Abrams was mimicking that, and his early stuff really works. It's just when he starts adapting properties that I really love. And he's coming at it from a marketing standpoint first and a, hey, we're just gonna do the lost mystery box thing. We're gonna set up a bunch questions to which we don't know the answers, and it'll be up to somebody else to figure it out, somebody down the line. I as I told you, between our conversations before we were recording. I really enjoy or maybe I said it early in this one. I really like that first J. J. Abrams, Star Trek: Foam, and then everyone thereafter, including the one that Simon Pegg really had a hand in because he's clear fan. Yeah. Yeah. But they brought in director from one of the fast and the furious films and they tried to make it an action film on.0:15:45This is not Star Trek, dude. This is not why we like Star Trek. It's not for the flash, particularly -- Oh my god. -- again, in the first one, it was a stylistic choice. I'd like it, then after that is that's the substance of this, isn't it? It's the lens flares. I mean, that that's your attempt at philosophy. It's this the lens flares. That's your attempt at a moral dilemma. I don't know.0:16:07I kinda hate to start off on this because this is something about which I feel like intense emotion and it's negative. And I don't want that to be my first impression. I'm really negative about something. Well, one of the things about this show is that I always joke that maybe I shouldn't edit it because The thing that's most interesting to archaeologists is often the trash mitt and here I am tidying this thing up to be presentable to future historians or whatever like it I can sync to that for sure. Yeah. I'm sorry. The fact of it is you're not gonna know everything and we want it that way. No. It's okay. We'll get around to the stuff that I like. But yeah. So anyway yeah.0:16:44So I could just preassociate on Stretrick for a while, so maybe a focusing question. Well, but first, you said there's a you had more to say, but you were I this this tasteful perspective. This is awesome. Well, I do have a focus on question for you. So let me just have you ask it because for me to get into I basically I'm alienated right now from somebody that I've been really good friends with since high school.0:17:08Because over the last decade, culturally, we have bifurcated into the hard right, hard left. And I've tried not to go either way, but the hard left irritates me more than the hard right right now. And he is unquestionably on the hard left side. And I know for people who are dedicated Marxist, or really grounded in, like, materialism and the material well-being of workers that the current SJW fanaticism isn't leftist. It's just crazed. We try to put everything, smash everything down onto this left right spectrum, and it's pretty easy to say who's on the left and who's on the right even if a two dimensional, two axis graph would be much more expressive and nuanced.0:17:49Anyway, what's your focus in question? Well, And I think there is actually there is a kind of a when we ended your last episode talking about the bell riots from d s nine -- Mhmm. -- that, you know, how old five? Yeah. Twenty four. Ninety five did and did not accurately predict the kind of technological and economic conditions of this decade. It predicted the conditions Very well. Go ahead and finish your question. Yeah. Right.0:18:14That's another thing that's retreated in picard season two, and it was actually worth it. Yeah. Like, it was the fact that they decided to go back there was part of the defense that I made about that show and about Discovery's jump into the distant future and the way that they treated that I posted to medium a year or two ago when I was just watching through season two of picard. And for me, the thing that I liked about it was that they're making an effort to reconcile the wonder and the Ethiopian promise And, you know, this Kevin Kelly or rather would call Blake Protopian, right, that we make these improvements and that they're often just merely into incremental improvements the way that was it MLK quoted that abolitionists about the long arc of moral progress of moral justice. You know, I think that there's something to that and patitis into the last this is a long question. I'm mad at I'm mad at these. Thank you all for tolerating me.0:19:22But the when to tie it into the epistemology question, I remember this seeing this impactful lecture by Carnegie Mellon and SFI professor Simon Didayo who was talking about how by running statistical analysis on the history of the proceedings of the Royal Society, which is the oldest scientific journal, that you could see what looked like a stock market curve in sentiment analysis about the confidence that scientists had at the prospect of unifying knowledge. And so you have, like, conciliance r s curve here that showed that knowledge would be more and more unified for about a century or a hundred and fifty years then it would go through fifty years of decline where something had happened, which was a success of knowledge production. Had outpaced our ability to integrate it. So we go through these kinds of, like, psychedelic peak experiences collectively, and then we have sit there with our heads in our hands and make sense of everything that we've learned over the last century and a half and go through a kind of a deconstructive epoch. Where we don't feel like the center is gonna hold anymore. And that is what I actually As as disappointing as I accept that it is and acknowledge that it is to people who were really fueling themselves on that more gene rottenberry era prompt vision for a better society, I actually appreciated this this effort to explore and address in the shows the way that they could pop that bubble.0:21:03And, like, it's on the one hand, it's boring because everybody's trying to do the moral complexity, anti hero, people are flawed, thing in narrative now because we have a general loss of faith in our institutions and in our rows. On the other hand, like, that's where we are and that's what we need to process And I think there is a good reason to look back at the optimism and the quarian hope of the sixties and early seventies. We're like, really, they're not so much the seventies, but look back on that stuff and say, we wanna keep telling these stories, but we wanna tell it in a way that acknowledges that the eighties happened. And that this is you got Tim Leary, and then you've got Ronald Reagan. And then That just or Dick Nixon. And like these things they wash back and forth. And so it's not unreasonable to imagine that in even in a world that has managed to how do you even keep a big society like that coherent? It has to suffer kind of fabric collapses along the way at different points. And so I'm just curious your thoughts about that. And then I do have another prompt, but I wanna give Kevin the opportunity to respond to this as well as to address some of the prompts that you brought to this conversation? This is a conversation prompt while we weren't recording. It has nothing to do with Sartreks. I'll save that for later. Okay.0:22:25Well, everything you just said was in some way related to a defense of Alex Kurtzmann Star Trek. And it's not my original idea. I'm channeling somebody from YouTube, surely. But Don't get points for theme if the storytelling is incompetent. That's what I was gonna Yeah. And the storytelling in all of Star Trek: Discovery, and in the first two seasons of picard was simply incompetent.0:22:53When Star Trek, the next generation was running, they would do twenty, twenty four, sometimes more episodes in one season. These days, the season of TVs, eight episodes, ten, and they spend a lot more money on each episode. There's a lot more special effects. There's a lot more production value. Whereas Star Trek: The Next Generation was, okay, we have these standing sets. We have costumes for our actors. We have Two dollars for special effects. You better not introduce a new alien spaceship. It that costs money. We have to design it. We have to build it. So use existing stuff. Well, what do you have? You have a bunch of good actors and you have a bunch of good writers who know how to tell a story and craft dialogue and create tension and investment with basically a stage play and nothing in the Kerstmann era except one might argue and I would have sympathy strange new worlds. Comes anywhere close to that level of competence, which was on display for decades. From Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space nines, Star Trek Voyager, and Star Trek Enterprise. And so, I mean, I guess, in that respect, it's worth asking because, I mean, all of us, I think, are fans of Deep Space nine.0:24:03You don't think that it's a shift in focus. You don't think that strange in world is exempt because it went back to a more episodic format because what you're talking about is the ability for rather than a show runner or a team of show runners to craft a huge season, long dramatic arc. You've got people that are like Harlan Ellison in the original series able to bring a really potent one off idea to the table and drop it. And so there are there's all of those old shows are inconsistent from episode to episode. Some are they have specific writers that they would bring back again and that you could count to knock out of the park. Yeah. DC Fontana. Yeah.0:24:45So I'm curious to your thoughts on that as well as another part of this, which is when we talk when we talk your show about Doug Rushkoff and and narrative collapse, and he talks about how viewers just have different a way, it's almost like d s nine was possibly partially responsible for this change in what people expected from so. From television programming in the documentary that was made about that show and they talk about how people weren't ready for cereal. I mean, for I mean, yeah, for these long arcs, And so there is there's this question now about how much of this sort of like tiresome moral complexity and dragging narrative and all of this and, like, things like Westworld where it becomes so baroque and complicated that, like, you have, like, die hard fans like me that love it, but then you have a lot of people that just lost interest. They blacked out because the show was trying to tell a story that was, like, too intricate like, too complicated that the the show runners themselves got lost. And so that's a JJ Abrams thing too, the puzzle the mystery box thing where You get to the end of five seasons of lost and you're like, dude, did you just forget?0:25:56Did you wake up five c five episodes ago and just, oh, right. Right. We're like a chatbot that only give you very convincing answers based on just the last two or three interactions. But you don't remember the scene that we set. Ten ten responses ago. Hey. You know, actually, red articles were forget who it was, which series it was, they were saying that there's so many leaks and spoilers in getting out of the Internet that potentially the writers don't know where they're going because that way it can't be with the Internet. Yeah. Sounds interesting. Yeah. That sounds like cover for incompetence to be.0:26:29I mean, on the other hand, I mean, you did hear, like, Nolan and Joy talking about how they would they were obsessed with the Westworld subreddit and the fan theories and would try to dodge Like, if they had something in their mind that they found out that people are re anticipating, they would try to rewrite it. And so there is something about this that I think is really speaks to the nature of because I do wanna loop in your thoughts on AI to because you're talking about this being a favorite topic. Something about the, like, trying to The demands on the self made by predatory surveillance technologies are such that the I'm convinced the adaptive response is that we become more stochastic or inconsistent in our identities. And that we kind of sublimate from a more solid state of identity to or through a liquid kind of modernity biologic environment to a gaseous state of identity. That is harder to place sorry, harder to track. And so I think that this is also part of and this is the other question I wanted to ask you, and then I'm just gonna shut up for fifteen minutes is do you when you talk about loving Robert Ricardo and Jerry Ryan as the doctor at seven zero nine, One of the interesting things about that relationship is akin to stuff.0:27:52I know you've heard on Kevin have heard on future fossils about my love for Blade Runner twenty forty nine and how it explores all of these different these different points along a gradient between what we think of in the current sort of general understanding as the human and the machine. And so there's this thing about seven, right, where she's She's a human who wants to be a machine. And then there's this thing about the doctor where he's a machine that wants to be a human. And you have to grant both on a logical statuses to both of them. And that's why I think they're the two most interesting characters. Right?0:28:26And so at any rate, like, this is that's there's I've seen writing recently on the Turing test and how, like, really, there should be a reverse Turing test to see if people that have become utterly reliant on outboard cognition and information processing. They can pass the drink. Right. Are they philosophical zombies now? Are they are they having some an experience that that, you know, people like, thick and and shilling and the missing and these people would consider the modern self or are they something else have we moved on to another more routine robotic kind of category of being? I don't know. There's just a lot there, but -- Well done. -- considering everything you just said, In twenty words or less, what's your question? See, even more, like I said, do you have the inveterate podcaster? I'd say There's all of those things I just spoke about are ways in which what we are as people and the nature of our media, feedback into fourth, into each other. And so I would just love to hear you reflect on any of that, be it through the lens of Star Trek or just through the lens of discussion on AI. And we'll just let the ball roll downhill. So with the aim of framing something positively rather than negatively.0:29:47In the late nineties, mid to late nineties. We got the X Files. And the X Files for the first few seasons was so It was so engaging for me because Prior to that, there had been Hollywood tropes about aliens, which informed a lot of science fiction that didn't really connect with the actual reported experience of people who claim to have encountered either UFOs, now called UAPs, or had close encounters physical contact. Type encounters with seeming aliens. And it really seemed like Chris Carter, who was the showrunner, was reading the same Usenet Newsgroups that I was reading about those topics. Like, really, we had suddenly, for the first time, except maybe for comedian, you had the Grey's, and you had characters experiencing things that just seemed ripped right out of the reports that people were making on USnet, which for young folks, this is like pre Worldwide Web. It was Internet, but with no pictures. It's all text. Good old days from my perspective is a grumpy old gen xer. And so, yeah, that was a breakthrough moment.0:30:54Any this because you mentioned it in terms of Jonathan Nolan and his co writer on Westworld, reading the subreddit, the West and people figured out almost immediately that there were two interweaving time lines set decades apart and that there's one character, the old guy played by Ed Harris, and the young guy played by I don't remember the actor. But, you know, that they were the same character and that the inveterate white hat in the beginning turns into the inveterate black cat who's just there for the perverse thrill of tormenting the hosts as the robots are called. And the thing that I love most about that first season, two things. One, Anthony Hopkins. Say no more. Two, the revelation that the park has been basically copying humans or figuring out what humans are by closely monitoring their behavior in the park and the realization that the hosts come to is that, holy shit compared to us, humans are very simple creatures. We are much more complex. We are much more sophisticated, nuanced conscious, we feel more than the humans do, and that humans use us to play out their perverse and sadistic fantasies. To me, that was the takeaway message from season one.0:32:05And then I thought every season after that was just diluted and confused and not really coherent. And in particular, I haven't if there's a fourth season, haven't There was and then the show got canceled before they could finish the story. They had the line in season three. It was done after season three. And I was super happy to see Let's see after who plays Jesse Pinkman? Oh, no. Aaron oh, shit. Paul. Yes. Yeah. I was super happy to see him and something substantial and I was really pleased to see him included in the show and it's like, oh, that's what you're doing with him? They did a lot more interesting stuff with him in season four. I did they. They did a very much more interesting stuff. I think it was done after season three. If you tell me season four is worth taking in, I blow. I thought it was.0:32:43But again, I only watch television under very specific set of circumstances, and that's how I managed to enjoy television because I was a fierce and unrepentant hyperlogical critic of all media as a child until I managed to start smoking weed. And then I learned to enjoy myself. As we mentioned in the kitchen as I mentioned in the kitchen, if I smoke enough weed, Star Trek: Discovery is pretty and I can enjoy it on just a second by second level where if I don't remember what the character said thirty seconds ago, I'm okay. But I absolutely loved in season two when they brought in Hanson Mountain as as Christopher Pike. He's suddenly on the discovery and he's in the captain's chair. And it's like he's speaking for the audience. The first thing he says is, hey, why don't we turn on the lights? And then hey, all you people sitting around the bridge. We've been looking at your faces for a whole season. We don't even think about you. Listen to a round of introductions. Who are you? Who are you? It's it's if I were on set. You got to speak.0:33:53The writers is, who are these characters? We've been looking at them every single episode for a whole season. I don't know their names. I don't know anything about them. Why are they even here? Why is it not just Michael Burnham and an automated ship? And then it was for a while -- Yeah. -- which is funny. Yeah. To that point, And I think this kind of doubles back. The thing that I love about bringing him on and all of the people involved in strange and worlds in particular, is that these were lifelong fans of this series, I mean, of this world. Yeah. And so in that way, gets to this the idiosyncrasy question we're orbiting here, which is when these things are when the baton is passed well, it's passed to people who have now grown up with this stuff.0:34:40I personally cannot stand Jurassic World. Like, I think that Colin Trivaro should never have been in put at the reins. Which one did he direct? Oh, he did off he did first and the third. Okay. But, I mean, he was involved in all three very heavily.0:34:56And there's something just right at the outset of that first Jurassic World where you realize that this is not a film that's directly addressing the issues that Michael Creighton was trying to explore here. It's a film about its own franchise. It's a film about the fact that they can't just stop doing the same thing over and over again as we expect a different question. How can we not do it again? Right. And so it's actually, like, unpleasantly soft, conscious, in that way that I can't remember I'll try to find it for the show notes, but there's an Internet film reviewer who is talking about what happens when, like, all cinema has to take this self referential turn.0:35:34No. And films like Logan do it really well. But there are plenty of examples where it's just cheeky and self aware because that's what the ironic sensibility is obsessed with. And so, yeah, there's a lot of that where it's, like, you're talking about, like, Abrams and the the Star Wars seven and you know, that whole trilogy of Disney Star Wars, where it's, in my opinion, completely fumbled because there it's just empty fan service, whereas when you get to Andor, love Andor. Andor is amazing because they're capable of providing all of those emotional beats that the fans want and the ref the internal references and good dialogue. But they're able to write it in a way that's and shoot it in a way. Gilroy and Bo Willeman, basic of the people responsible for the excellent dialogue in Andor.0:36:31And I love the production design. I love all the stuff set on Coruscant, where you saw Coruscant a lot in the prequel trilogy, and it's all dayglow and bright and just in your face. And it's recognizable as Coruscant in andor, but it's dour. It's metropolis. It's all grays and it's and it's highlighting the disparity between where the wealthy live and where the poor live, which Lucas showed that in the prequel trilogy, but even in the sports bar where somebody tries to sell death sticks to Obi wan. So it's super clean and bright and just, you know, It shines too much. Personally though, and I just wanna stress, KMO is not grumpy media dude, I mean, this is a tiny fraction about, but I am wasting this interview with you. Love. All of the Dave Felloni animated Star Wars stuff, even rebels. Love it all.0:37:26I I'm so glad they aged up the character and I felt less guilty about loving and must staying after ahsoka tano? My favorite Star Wars character is ahsoka tano. But if you only watch the live action movies, you're like who? Well, I guess now that she's been on the Mandalorian, he's got tiny sliver of a foothold -- Yeah. -- in the super mainstream Star Wars. And that was done well, I thought. It was. I'm so sorry that Ashley Epstein doesn't have any part in it. But Rosario Dawson looks the part. She looks like a middle aged Asaka and think they tried to do some stuff in live action, which really should have been CGI because it's been established that the Jedi can really move, and she looked human. Which she is? If you put me on film, I'm gonna lick human. Right. Not if you're Canada Reeves, I guess. You got that. Yeah. But yeah.0:38:09So I do wanna just go real briefly back to this question with you about because we briefly talked about chat, GPT, and these other things in your half of this. And, yeah, I found out just the other night my friend, the t ferry, asked Chad g p t about me, and it gave a rather plausible and factual answer. I was surprised and That's what these language models do. They put plausible answers. But when you're doing search, you want correct answers. Right. I'm very good at that. Right. Then someone shared this Michelle Bowen's actually the famous PTP guy named him. Yeah. So, you know, So Michelle shared this article by Steven Hales and Colette, that was basically making the argument that there are now they're gonna be all these philosophical zombies, acting as intelligent agents sitting at the table of civilization, and there will be all the philosophical zombies of the people who have entirely yielded their agency to them, and they will be cohabitating with the rest of us.0:39:14And what an unpleasant scenario, So in light of that, and I might I'd love to hear you weave that together with your your thoughts on seven zero nine and the doctor and on Blade Runner twenty forty nine. And this thing that we're fumbling through as a species right now. Like, how do we got a new sort of taxonomy? Does your not audience need like a minute primer on P zombies? Might as well. Go for it.0:39:38So a philosophical zombie is somebody who behaves exactly like an insult person or a person with interior experience or subjective experience, but they don't have any subjective experience. And in Pardon me for interrupt. Wasn't that the question about the the book we read in your book club, a blind sign in this box? Yes. It's a black box, a drawn circle. Yeah. Chinese room experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, Daniel, it goes out. You don't know, it goes on inside the room. Chinese room, that's a tangent. We can come back to it. P. Zombie. P. Zombie is somebody or is it is an entity. It's basically a puppet. It looks human. It acts human. It talks like a human. It will pass a Turing test, but it has no interior experience.0:40:25And when I was going to grad school for philosophy of mind in the nineteen nineties, this was all very out there. There was no example of something that had linguistic competence. Which did not have internal experience. But now we have large language models and generative pretrained transformer based chatbots that don't have any internal experience. And yet, when you interact with them, it seems like there is somebody there There's a personality there. And if you go from one model to a different, it's a very different personality. It is distinctly different. And yet we have no reason to believe that they have any sort of internal experience.0:41:01So what AI in the last decade and what advances has demonstrated to us and really even before the last decade You back in the nineties when the blue beat Gary Casper off at at chess. And what had been the one of the defining characteristics of human intelligence was we're really good at this abstract mathematical stuff. And yeah, calculators can calculate pie in a way that we can't or they can cube roots in a way that humans generally can't, creative in their application of these methodologies And all of a sudden, well, yeah, it kinda seems like they are. And then when what was an alpha go -- Mhmm. -- when it be to least a doll in go, which is a much more complex game than chess and much more intuitive based. That's when we really had to say, hey, wait a minute. Maybe this notion that These things are the exclusive province of us because we have a special sort of self awareness. That's bunk. And the development of large language models since then has absolutely demonstrated that competence, particularly linguistic competence and in creative activities like painting and poetry and things like that, you don't need a soul, you don't even need to sense a self, it's pretty it's a pretty simple hack, actually. And Vahrv's large language models and complex statistical modeling and things, but it doesn't require a soul.0:42:19So that was the Peter Watts' point in blindsight. Right? Which is Look revolves around are do these things have a subjective experience, and do they not these aliens that they encounter? I've read nothing but good things about that book and I've read. It's extraordinary. But his lovecrafty and thesis is that you actually lovecraftian in twenty twenty three. Oh, yeah. In the world, there's more lovecraftian now than it was when he was writing. Right? So cough about the conclusion of a Star Trek card, which is season of Kraft yet. Yes. That's a that's a com Yeah. The holes in his fan sense. But that was another show that did this I liked for asking this question.0:42:54I mean, at this point, you either have seen this or you haven't you never will. The what the fuck turn when they upload picard into a synth body and the way that they're dealing with the this the pinocchio question Let's talk about Blade Runner twenty forty nine. Yeah. But I mean yeah. So I didn't like the wave I did not like the wave of card handled that. I love the wave and Blade Runner handled it. So you get no points for themes. Yeah. Don't deliver on story and character and coherence. Yeah. Fair. But yeah. And to be not the dog, Patrick Stewart, because it's clear from the ready room just being a part of this is so emotional and so awesome for everyone involved. And it's It's beautiful. Beautiful. But does when you when you see these, like, entertainment weekly interviews with Chris Pratt and Bryce Dallas Howard about Jurassic World, and it's clear that actors are just so excited to be involved in a franchise that they're willing to just jettison any kind of discretion about how the way that it's being treated. They also have a contractual obligation to speak in positive terms about -- They do. -- of what they feel. Right. Nobody's yeah. Nobody's doing Shout out to Rystellis Howard, daughter of Ron Howard.0:44:11She was a director, at least in the first season, maybe the second season of the Mandalorian. And her episodes I mean, I she brought a particular like, they had Bryce Dallas Howard, Tico, ITT, directed some episodes. Deborah Chow, who did all of Obi wan, which just sucked. But her contributions to the Mandalorian, they had a particular voice. And because that show is episodic, Each show while having a place in a larger narrative is has a beginning middle and end that you can bring in a director with a particular voice and give that episode that voice, and I really liked it. And I really liked miss Howard's contribution.0:44:49She also in an episode of Black Mirror. The one where everyone has a social credit score. Knows Donuts. Black Mirror is a funny thing because It's like, reality outpaces it. Yeah. I think maybe Charlie Bruker's given up on it because they haven't done it in a while. Yeah. If you watch someone was now, like, five, six years later, it's, yes, or what? See, yes. See, damn. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But yeah. I don't know. I just thing that I keep circling and I guess we come to on the show a lot is the way that memory forms work substantiates an integrity in society and in the way that we relate to things and the way that we think critically about the claims that are made on truth and so on and say, yeah, I don't know. That leads right into the largest conversation prompt that I had about AI. Okay? So we were joking when we set up this date that this was like the trial logs between Terence Buchanan and Rupert Shell Drake. And what's his name? Real Abraham. Yeah. Yeah. All Abraham. And Rupert Shell Drake is most famous for a steward of Morphe resin.0:45:56So does AI I've never really believed that Norfolk residents forms the base of human memory, but is that how AI works? It brings these shapes from the past and creates new instantiation of them in the present. Is AI practicing morphic resonance in real life even if humans are or not? I've had a lot of interaction with AI chatbots recently. And as I say, different models produce different seeming personalities. And you can tell, like, you can just quiz them. Hey, we're talking about this. Do you remember what I said about it ten minutes ago? And, no, they don't remember more than the last few exchanges.0:46:30And yet, there seems to be a continuity that belies the lack of short term memory. And is that more for residents or is that what's the word love seeing shapes and clouds parad paradolia. Yeah. Is that me imparting this continuity of personality to the thing, which is really just spitting out stuff, which is designed to seem plausible given what the input was. And I can't answer that. Or it's like Steven Nagmanovich in free play talks about somewhat I'm hoping to have on the show at some point.0:47:03This year talks about being a professional improviser and how really improvisation is just composition at a much faster timescale. And composition is just improvisation with the longer memory. And how when I started to think about it in those terms, the continuity that you're talking about is the continuity of an Alzheimer's patient who can't remember that their children have grown up and You know, that that's you have to think about it because you can recognize the Alzheimer's and your patient as your dad, even though he doesn't recognize you, there is something more to a person than their memories. And conversely, if you can store and replicate and move the memories to a different medium, have you moved the person? Maybe not. Yeah. So, yeah, that's interesting because that gets to this more sort of essentialist question about the human self. Right. Blade Runner twenty forty nine. Yeah. Go there. Go there. A joy. Yes.0:47:58So in Blade Runner twenty forty nine, we have our protagonist Kaye, who is a replicant. He doesn't even have a name, but he's got this AI holographic girlfriend. But the ad for the girlfriend, she's naked. When he comes home, she is She's constantly changing clothes, but it's always wholesome like nineteen fifty ish a tire and she's making dinner for him and she lays the holographic dinner over his very prosaic like microwave dinner. And she's always encouraging him to be more than he is. And when he starts to uncover the evidence that he might be like this chosen one, like replicant that was born rather than made.0:48:38She's all about it. She's, yes, you're real, and she wants to call him Joe's. K is not a name. That's just the first letter in your serial number. You're Joe. I'm gonna call you Joe.0:48:46And then when she's about to be destroyed, The last thing is she just rushes to me. She says, I love you. But then later he encounters an ad for her and it's an interactive ad. And she says, you looked tired. You're a good Joe. And he realizes and hopefully the attentive audience realizes as real as she seemed earlier, as vital, and as much as she seemed like an insult being earlier, she's not. That was her programming. She's designed to make you feel good by telling you what you want to hear. And he has that realization. And at that point, he's there's no hope for me. I'm gonna help this Rick Deckard guy hook up with his daughter, and then I'm just gonna lie down and bleed to death. Because my whole freaking existence was a lie. But he's not bitter. He seems to be at peace. I love that. That's a beautiful angle on that film or a slice of it. And So it raises this other question that I wanted to ask, which was about the Coke and Tiononi have that theory of consciousness.0:49:48That's one of the leading theories contending with, like, global workspace, which is integrated information. And so they want to assign consciousness as a continuous value that grayates over degree to which a system is integrated. So it's coming out of this kind of complex systems semi panpsychist thing that actually doesn't trace interiority all the way down in the way that some pants, I guess, want it to be, but it does a kind of Alfred North Whitehead thing where they're willing to say that Whitehead wanted to say that even a photon has, like, the quantum of mind to accompany its quantum of matter, but Tinutti and Coker saying, we're willing to give like a thermostat the quantum here because it is in some way passing enough information around inside of itself in loops. That it has that accursive component to it. And so that's the thing that I wonder about these, and that's the critique that's made by people like Melanie about diffusion models like GPT that are not they're not self aware because there's no loop from the outputs back into the input.0:51:09And there isn't the training. Yeah. There there is something called backwards propagation where -- Yes. -- when you get an output that you'd like, you can run a backward propagation algorithm back through the black box basically to reinforce the patterns of activation that you didn't program. They just happen, easily, but you like the output and you can reinforce it. There's no biological equivalent of that. Yeah. Particularly, not particularly irritating.0:51:34I grind my teeth a little bit when people say, oh, yeah, these neural net algorithms they've learned, like humans learn, no, they don't. Absolutely do not. And in fact, if we learned the way they did, we would be pathetic because we learn in a much more elegant way. We need just a very few examples of something in order to make a generalization and to act on it, whereas these large language models, they need billions of repetitions. So that's I'm tapping my knee here to to indicate a reflex.0:52:02You just touched on something that generates an automatic response from me, and now I've come to consciousness having. So I wanted it in that way. So I'm back on. Or good, Joe. Yeah. What about you, man? What does the stir up for you? Oh, I got BlueCall and I have this particular part. It's interesting way of putting it off and struggling to define the difference between a human and AI and the fact that we can do pattern recognition with very few example. That's a good margin. In a narrow range, though, within the context of something which answers to our survival. Yes. We are not evolved to understand the universe. We are evolved to survive in it and reproduce and project part of ourselves into the future. Underwritten conditions with Roberto, I went a hundred thousand years ago. Yeah. Exactly. So that's related. I just thought I talked about this guy, Gary Tomlinson, who is a biosemietition, which is semiative? Yes.0:52:55Biosymiotics being the field that seeks to understand how different systems, human and nonhuman, make sense of and communicate their world through signs, and through signals and indices and symbols and the way that we form models and make these inferences that are experienced. Right? And there are a lot of people like evolutionary biologist John Maynard Smith, who thought they were what Thomas had called semantic universalists that thought that meaning making through representation is something that could be traced all the way down. And there are other people like Tomlinson who think that there is a difference of kind, not just merely a matter of degree, between human symbolic communication and representational thinking and that of simpler forms. So, like, that whole question of whether this is a matter of kind or a matter of degree between what humans are doing and what GPT is doing and how much that has to do with this sort of Doug Hofstetter and Varella question about the way that feedback loops, constitutes important structure in those cognitive networks or whatever.0:54:18This is I just wanna pursue that a little bit more with you and see kinda, like, where do you think that AI as we have it now is capable of deepening in a way that makes it to AGI? Or do you because a lot of people do, like, People working in deep mind are just like, yeah, just give us a couple more years and this approach is gonna work. And then other people are saying, no, there's something about the topology of the networks that is fundamentally broken. And it's never gonna generate consciousness. Two answers. Yeah. One, No. This is not AGI. It's not it's not gonna bootstrap up into AGI. It doesn't matter how many billions of parameters you add to the models. Two, from your perspective and my perspective and Kevin's perspective, we're never gonna know when we cross over from dumb but seemingly we're done but competent systems to competent, extremely competent and self aware. We're never gonna know because from the get go from now, from from the days of Eliza, there has been a human artifice at work in making these things seem as if they have a point of view, as if they have subjectivity. And so, like Blake Limone at Google, he claimed to be convinced that Lambda was self aware.0:55:35But if you read the transcripts that he released, if his conversations with Lambda, it is clear from the get go he assigns Lambda the role of a sentient AGI, which feels like it is being abused and which needs rep legal representation. And it dutifully takes on that role and says, yes. I'm afraid of you humans. I'm afraid of how you're treating me. I'm afraid I'm gonna be turned off. I need a lawyer. And prior to that, Soon Darpichai, in a demonstration of Lambda, he poses the question to it, you are the planet Jupiter. I'm gonna pose questions to you as are the planet Jupiter, answer them from that point of view. And it does. It's job. But it's really good at its job. It's this comes from Max Techmark. Who wrote to what a life three point o? Is it two point o or three point I think it's three point o.0:56:19Think about artificial intelligence in terms of actual intelligence or actual replication of what we consider valuable about ourselves. But really, that's beside the point. What we need to worry about is their competence. How good are they at solving problems in the world? And they're getting really good. In this whole question of are they alive? Do they have self awareness? From our perspective, it's beside the point. From their perspective, of course, it would be hugely important.0:56:43And this is something that Black Mirror brings up a lot is the idea that you can create a being that suffers, and then you have it suffer in an accelerated time. So it suffers for an eternity over lunch. That's something we absolutely want to avoid. And personally, I think it's we should probably not make any effort. We should probably make a positive effort to make sure these things never develop. Subjective experience because that does provide the potential for creating hell, an infinity of suffering an infinite amount of subjective experience of torment, which we don't want to do. That would be a bad thing, morally speaking, ethically speaking. Three right now. If you're on the labor market, you still have to pay humans by the hour. Right? And try to pay them as little as possible. But, yeah, just I think that's the thing that probably really excites that statistically greater than normal population of sociopathic CEOs. Right? Is the possibility that you could be paying the same amount of money for ten times as much suffering. Right. I'm I'm reminded of the Churchill eleven gravity a short time encouraging.0:57:51Nothing but good things about this show, but I haven't seen it. Yeah. I'd love to. This fantasy store, it's a fantasy cartoon, but it has really disturbing undertones. If you just scratch the surface, you know, slightly, which is faithful to old and fairy tales. So What's your name? Princess princess princess bubble down creates this character to lemon grab. It produces an obviously other thing there, I think, handle the administrative functions of her kingdom while she goes off and has the passion and stuff. And he's always loudly talking about how much he's suffering and how terrible it is. And he's just ignoring it. He's doing his job. Yeah. I mean, that that's Black Mirror in a nutshell. I mean, I think if you if you could distill Black Mirror to just single tagline it's using technology in order to deliver disproportionate punishment. Yeah. So so that that's Steven Hale's article that I I brought up earlier mention this thing about how the replacement of horse drawn carriage by automobile was accompanied with a great deal of noise and fuhrer about people saying that horses are agents.0:59:00Their entities. They have emotional worlds. They're responsive to the world in a way that a car can never be. But that ultimately was beside the point. And that was the Peter again, Peter Watson blindsight is making this point that maybe consciousness is not actually required for intelligence in the vesting superior forms of intelligence have evolved elsewhere in the cosmos that are not stuck on the same local optimum fitness peak. That we are where we're never we're actually up against a boundary in terms of how intelligent we can be because it has to bootstrap out of our software earness in some way.0:59:35And this is that's the Kyle offspring from Charles Strauss and Alexander. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So so I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm just, like, in this space today, but usually, unfortunately.0:59:45That's the thing that I I think it's a really important philosophical question, and I wonder where you stand on this with respect to how you make sense of what we're living through right now and what we might be facing is if we Rob people like Rob and Hanson talk about the age of where emulated human minds take over the economy, and he assumes an interiority. Just for the basis of a thought experiment. But there's this other sense in which we may actually find in increasing scarcity and wish that we could place a premium on even if we can't because we've lost the reins to our economy to the vile offspring is the human. And and so are we the horses that are that in another hundred years, we're gonna be like doing equine therapy and, like, living on rich people's ranches. Everything is everything that will have moved on or how do you see this going? I mean, you've interviewed so many people you've given us so much thought over the years. If humans are the new horses, then score, we won.1:00:48Because before the automobile horses were working stiffs, they broke their leg in the street. They got shot. They got worked to death. They really got to be they were hauling mine carts out of mines. I mean, it was really sucked to be a horse. And after the automobile horses became pampered pets, Do we as humans wanna be pampered pets? Well, pampered pet or exploited disposable robot? What do you wanna be? I'll take Pampers Pet. That works for me. Interesting.1:01:16Kevin, I'm sure you have thoughts on this. I mean, you speak so much about the unfair labor relations and these things in our Facebook group and just in general, and drop in that sign. If you get me good sign, that's one of the great ones, you have to drop in. Oh, you got it. But The only real comment I have is that we're a long overdue or rethinking about what is the account before? Us or you can have something to do. Oh, educational system in collections if people will manage jobs because I was just anchored to the schools and then, you know, Our whole system perhaps is a people arguing and a busy word. And it was just long past the part where the busy word needs to be done. We're leaving thing wired. I don't know. I also just forgot about that. I'm freezing the ice, getting the hand out there. Money has been doing the busy word more and faster.1:02:12One thing I wanna say about the phrase AI, it's a moving goal post -- Yeah. -- that things that used to be considered the province of genuine AI of beating a human at go Now that an AI has beat humans at go, well, that's not really AI anymore. It's not AGI, certainly. I think you both appreciate this. I saw a single panel comic strip and it's a bunch of dinosaurs and they're looking up at guy and the big comment is coming down and they say, oh, no, the economy. Well, as someone who since college prefers to think of the economy as actually the metabolism of the entire ecology. Right? What we measure as humans is some pitifully small fraction of the actual value being created and exchanged on the planet at any time. So there is a way that's funny, but it's funny only to a specific sensibility that treats the economy as the

Check out Michael's many writings, art projects, music projects, and podcasts here.Instagram (@michaelgarfield) | Future Fossils Podcast| Complexity Podcast | substack | Live at the Apothecary | YouTube |Paleontologist-Futurist Michael Garfield is devoted to helping navigate our age of accelerating weirdness and helping cultivate the curiosity and play we'll need to thrive in it. As host and producer of both Future Fossils Podcast & The Santa Fe Institute's Complexity Podcast, Michael acts as interlocutor for a worldwide community of artists, scientists, and philosophers — a practice that feeds his synthetic and transdisciplinary "mind-jazz" performances in the form of essay, music, and fine art. Standard-bearer for a new generation of boundary-defying scholars, Michael refuses to be enslaved by a single perspective, creative medium, or intellectual community, walking through the walls between academia and festival culture, theory and practice — speaking and performing everywhere from Moogfest to Burning Man, SXSW to Boom Festival, the Commonwealth Bank of Australia to Long Now's Ignite Talks to The Chapel of Sacred Mirrors.Follow him on Substack, Medium, and Twitter (or join his book club on Patreon) for a kaleidoscopic avalanche of explorations into human-technology co-evolution, the pre- and post-history of creativity and communication, and other soulful and subversive futurism. Subscribe to his music on Spotify and Bandcamp and follow him on Instagram for clips from works in progress.

One way of looking at the world reveals it as an interference pattern of dynamic, ever-changing links — relationships that grow and break in nested groups of multilayer networks. Identity can be defined by informational exchange between one cluster of relationships and any other. A kind of music starts to make itself apparent in the avalanche of data and new analytical approaches that a century of innovation has availed us. But just as with new music genres, it requires a trained ear to attune to unfamiliar order…what can we learn from network science and related general, abstract mathematical approaches to discovering this order in a flood of numbers?Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and in every episode we bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week we speak with SFI External Professor, UCLA mathematician Mason Porter (UCLA Website, Twitter, Google Scholar, Wikipedia), about his research on community detection in networks and the topology of data — going deep into a varied toolkit of approaches that help scientists disclose deep structures in the massive data-sets produced by modern life.If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us — at santafe.edu/engage.I know it comes as a surprise, but this is our penultimate episode.  Please stay tuned for one more show in May when SFI President David Krakauer and I will reflect on major themes and highlights from the last three-and-a-half years, and look forward to what I'll be doing next! It's been an honor and a pleasure to bring complex systems science to you in this way, and hope we stay in touch. I won't be hard to find.Thank you for listening.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInMentioned & Related Media:Bounded Confidence Models of Opinion Dynamics on NetworksSFI Seminar by Mason Porter (live Twitter coverage & YouTube stream recording)Communities in Networksby Mason Porter, Jukka-Pekka Onnela, & Peter MuchaSocial Structure of Facebook Networksby Amanda Traud, Peter Mucha, & Mason PorterCritical Truths About Power Lawsby Michael Stumpf & Mason PorterThe topology of databy Mason Porter, Michelle Feng, & Eleni KatiforiComplex networks with complex weightsby Lucas Böttcher & Mason A. PorterA Bounded-Confidence Model of Opinion Dynamics on Hypergraphsby Abigail Hicock, Yacoub Kureh, Heather Z. Brooks, Michelle Feng, & Mason PorterA multilayer network model of the coevolution of the spread of a disease and competing opinionsby Kaiyan Peng, Zheng Lu, Vanessa Lin, Michael Lindstrom, Christian Parkinson, Chuntian Wang, Andrea Bertozzi, & Mason PorterSocial network analysis for social neuroscientistsElisa C Baek, Mason A Porter, & Carolyn ParkinsonCommunity structure in social and biological networksby Michelle Girvan & Mark NewmanThe information theory of individualityby David Krakauer, Nils Bertschinger, Eckehard Olbrich, Jessica C Flack, Nihat AySocial capital I: measurement and associations with economic mobilityby Raj Chetty, Matthew O. Jackson, Theresa Kuchler, Johannes Stroebel, Nathaniel Hendren, Robert B. Fluegge, Sara Gong, Federico Gonzalez, Armelle Grondin, Matthew Jacob, Drew Johnston, Martin Koenen, Eduardo Laguna-Muggenburg, Florian Mudekereza, Tom Rutter, Nicolaj Thor, Wilbur Townsend, Ruby Zhang, Mike Bailey, Pablo Barberá, Monica Bhole & Nils Wernerfelt Hierarchical structure and the prediction of missing links in networksby Aaron Clauset, Cristopher Moore, M.E.J. NewmanGregory Bateson (Wikipedia)Complexity Ep. 99 - Alison Gopnik on Child Development, Elderhood, Caregiving, and A.I.“Why Do We Sleep?”by Van Savage & Geoffrey West at Aeon MagazineComplexity Ep. 4 - Luis Bettencourt on The Science of CitiesComplexity Ep. 12 - Matthew Jackson on Social & Economic NetworksComplexity Ep. 68 - W. Brian Arthur on Economics in Nouns and Verbs (Part 1)Complexity Ep. 100 - Dani Bassett & Perry Zurn on The Neuroscience & Philosophy of Curious Minds 

For centuries, Medieval life in Europe meant a world determined and prescribed by church and royalty. The social sphere was very much a pyramid, and everybody had to answer to and fit within the schemes of those on top. And then, on wings of reason, Modern selves emerged to scrutinize these systems and at great cost swap them for others that more evenly distribute power and authority. Cosmic forces preordained one's role within a transcendental order…but then, across quick decades of upheaval, philosophy and politics started celebrating self-determination and free will. Art and science blossomed as they wove together. Nothing was ever the same.Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week we engage with returning guest, New York Times best-selling author of seven books and SFI Miller Scholar Andrea Wulf, about her latest lovingly-detailed long work, Magnificent Rebels: The First Romantics and The Invention of The Self. In this episode we explore the conditions for an 18th century revolution in philosophy, science, literature, and lifestyle springing from Jena, Germany. Over just a few years, an extraordinary confluence of history-making figures such as Goethe, Schelling, Schlegel, Hegel, and Novalis helped rewrite what was possible for human thought and action. Admist a landscape of political revolt, this braid of brilliant friends and enemies and lovers altered what it means to be a self and how the modern self relates to everything it isn't, inspiring later British and American Romantic movements. Arguing for art and the imagination in the work of science and infusing art with reason, Jena's rebels of the mind lived bold, iconoclastic lives that seem 200 years ahead in retrospect. We stand to learn a great deal from a careful look at Jena and the first Romantics…maybe even how to replicate their great successes and avoid their self-implosion in the face of social turbulence.If you value our research and communication efforts, Please subscribe to Complexity Podcast wherever you prefer to listen, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts, and/or consider making a donation at santafe.edu/podcastgive. You can find numerous other ways to engage with us at santafe.edu/engage — in particular, you may wish to celebrate ten years of free online courses at Complexity Explorer with SFI Professor Cris Moore's Computation in Complex Systems, starting March 28th. Learn more in the show notes…and thank you for listening!Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedIn Related Reading & Listening:Episode 60 - Andrea Wulf on The Invention of Nature, Part 1: Humboldt's NaturegemäldeEpisode 61 - Andrea Wulf on The Invention of Nature, Part 2: Humboldt's Dangerous IdeaThe Invention of Nature: Alexander von Humboldt's New Worldby Andrea WulfMagnificent Rebels: The First Romantics and The Invention of The Selfby Andrea WulfCommon As Air: Revolution, Art, and Ownershipby Lewis HydeEpisode 37 - The Art & Science of Resilience in the Wake of Trauma with Laurence Gonzales“Nature” (1844)by Ralph Waldo EmersonChopin's PreludesFinnegans Wakeby James JoyceInterPlanetary Voyager (Interactive Golden Record Liner Notes)by SFI's InterPlanetary FestivalBlue Planet (BBC)with David Attenborough

Welcome to episode two hundred of Future Fossils! On this episode, I'm joined by Ehren Cruz (LinkedIn, Instagram, Website) and Daphne Krantz (LinkedIn, Instagram, Website) to discuss transcendence, trauma, and transformation. We talk about the festival world, our individual journeys, the rise of psychedelics in therapeutic applications, the potential of these substances, and their cultural roots. We also discuss addiction, trauma, and the consequences of collective consciousness, freedom, and how to provide access to these therapies in a way that respects Indigenous knowledge.✨ Chapters:(0:00:01) - Exploring Transcendence, Trauma, and Transformation(0:08:27) - Psychedelic Use With Intention(0:17:11) - Psychedelics and Substance Abuse(0:26:13) - Exploring Relationships to Psychoactive Substances(0:41:59) - Embodiment in Psychedelic Therapy(0:54:30) - Addiction, Trauma, and The Transhuman Conditions(1:03:20) - Healing Through Connection and Community(1:09:04) - The Freedom of Exploration(1:12:15) - Authentic Expression & Vulnerability(1:15:26) - Psychedelics for Exploration(1:27:55) - The Consequences of Collective Consciousness Freedom(1:43:02) - Supporting Independent Work✨ Support Future Fossils:Subscribe anywhere you go for podcastsSubscribe to the podcast PLUS essays, music, and news on Substack or Patreon.Buy my original paintings or commission new work.Buy my music on Bandcamp! (This episode features “Ephemeropolis” from the EP of the same name & “Olympus Mons” from the Martian Arts EP.)Or if you're into lo-fi audio, follow me and my listening recommendations on Spotify.This conversation continues with lively and respectful interaction every single day in the members-only Future Fossils Facebook Group and Discord server. Join us!✨ Tip Jars:@futurefossils on Venmo$manfredmacx on CashAppmichaelgarfield on PayPal✨ Affiliate Links:• These show notes were supplemented with Podium.Page, a very cool new AI service I'm happy to endorse. Sign up at https://hello.podium.page/?via=michael and get three free hours and 50% off your first month.• I transcribe this show with help from Podscribe.ai — which I highly recommend to other podcasters. (If you'd like to help edit transcripts for the Future Fossils book project, please email or DM me: Email | Twitter | Instagram)• BioTech Life Sciences makes anti-aging and performance enhancement formulas that work directly at the level of cellular nutrition, both for ingestion and direct topical application. I'm a firm believer in keeping NAD+ levels up and their skin solution helped me erase a year of pandemic burnout from my face.• Help regulate stress, get better sleep, recover from exercise, and/or stay alert and focused without stimulants, with the Apollo Neuro wearable. I have one and while I don't wear it all the time, when I do it's sober healthy drugs.• Musicians: let me recommend you get yourself a Jamstik Studio, the coolest MIDI guitar I've ever played. I LOVE mine. You can hear it playing all the synths on my song about Jurassic Park.✨ Mentioned & Related Episodes:7 - Shane Mauss (Psychedelic Comedy)10 - Anthony Thogmartin & David Krantz (Future Music)27 - Rak Razam & Niles Heckman (5-MeO DMT & Consciousness)58 - Shane Mauss (Psychonautic Adventures at the Edge of Genius & Madness)59 - Charles Shaw (Trauma, Addiction, and Healing)62 - David Krantz (Cannabis Nutrigenomics)68 - Charles Shaw (Soul in the Heart of Darkness)96 - Malena Grosz on Community-Led Party Culture vs. Corporate "Nightlife"100 - The Teafaerie on DMT, Transhumanism, and What To Do with All of God's Attention103 - Tricia Eastman on Facilitating Psychedelic Journeys to Recover from An Age of Epidemic Trauma112 - Mitsuaki Chi on Serving the Mushroom117 - Eric Wargo on Time Loops: Precognition, Retrocausation, and the Unconscious131 - Jessica Nielson & Link Swanson on Psychedelic Science & Too Much Novelty136 - Alyssa Gursky on Psychedelic Art Therapy & The Future of Communication156 - Stuart Davis on Zen, Aliens, and Psychedelics168 - Mikey Lion & Malena Grosz on Festival Time, Life-Changing Trips, and Community in COVID171 - Eric Wargo on Precognitive Dreamwork and The Philosophy of Time Travel172 - Tyson Yunkaporta on Indigenous Systems Thinking, Fractal Governance, Ontopunk, and Queering W.E.I.R.D. Modernity176 - Exploring Ecodelia with Richard Doyle, Sophie Strand, and Sam Gandy at the Psilocybin Summit✨ Keywords:Transcendence, Trauma, Transformation, Festival World, Psychedelics, Therapeutic Applications, Cultural Roots, Addiction, Collective Consciousness, Freedom, Access, Indigenous Knowledge, Intentionality, Context, Consumer Culture, Spiritual Ego, Health Coaching, Mental Health Counseling, Gender Identity, Substance Abuse, Private Practice, Ancient Cultural Roots, Modern Therapeutic Applications, Transformational Festival Culture, Memory, Embodiment, Rat Park Experiment, Brain Inference, Harlan Ellison, Opioid Crisis, Connection, Community, Oppression, Systems of Power, Self-Harm, Interconnectedness, Consumerism, Mindset, Serotonin, Oxytocin, Courageous Expression, Authentic Self, Right Wing Psychedelia, Commodification, Marginalized Groups, Nurturing Attachment, Reality, Independent Work, Apple Podcasts, Patreon✨ UNEDITED machine-generated transcript:Michael (1s):Greetings, future fossils. This is Michael Garfield welcoming you to episode 200 of the podcast that explores our place in time. My God, we made it here. What a view from this summit. It's incredible. And for this episode, I have two very special guests, two very old friends. I mean they're, they're not very old, they're just friends I've had for a very long time. Aaron Cruz and Daphne Krantz. Aaron is a psychedelic experience facilitator. Daphne is an addiction counselor, but I met them both in the festival world when Aaron and I were working on the Visionary Art Web Magazine Sole Purpose back in like a decade ago.Michael (55s):And Daphne was producing electronic music under the Alias FU Texture. Dabney was a self-identified man at the time. David Krantz appeared on the show, episode 63 talking about cannabis and Nutrigenomics. So I mean, all of us have been through just extraordinary transformations. Aaron Cruz was the guy whose ceremonially blessed my Google Glass before I performed with it in a world first self streaming performance Gratify Festival in 2013.Michael (1m 35s):So yeah, there's a lot of archival material to unpack here, but we don't spend a lot of time ruminating on history. Instead, we discuss the present moment of the landscape of our society and people's trauma and drive for transcendence and the way that this collides with consumer culture and transformational festival scene where we all met one another. And it's an extraordinary episode and I know a lot of people out there are having a really hard time right now.Michael (2m 23s):And I am with you. I have huge news to share soon. I want you to know that you are not alone in your efforts to work things out. And if you need support, there is support for you. I really hope that you get something out of this conversation. I myself found just simply re-listening to the recording to be truly healing. And I'm really grateful that I get to share it with you. But before I do that, I want to pay tribute to everyone who is supporting this show on Patreon and on CK everyone who is subscribing to my music on Band camp, the latest Patreon supporters include Darius Strel and Samantha Lotz.Michael (3m 17s):Thank you both so much. Thank you also to the, the hundreds of other people who are helping me pay my mortgage and feed my kids with this subscription service one form or another. I have plenty of awesome new things for you, including speaking of psychedelics, a live taping of the two sets I just played opening for comedian Shane Moss here in Santa Fe. John Cocteau Cinema sold out shows. Excellent evening. I just posted the little teaser clip of the song Transparent, which was the song from that 2013 Google Blast performance.Michael (4m 2s):Actually that was, its its inaugural debut and I've refined it over the last decade and I submitted it to NPRs Tiny Desk concert. And you can find that up on my YouTube. If you want to taste of the electro-acoustic inventions that I will be treating subscribers to here in short order patreon.com/michael garfield, michael garfield.ck.com, which is where this podcast is currently hosted RSS feed. And thanks to everybody who's been reading and reviewing the show on Apple Podcast and Spotify and wherever you're wonderful, you've got this, whatever you're going through, you can do it.Michael (4m 46s):I believe in you and do not hesitate to reach out to me or to my fabulous guests or to other members of our community if you need the support. Thank you. Enjoy this episode. Be well and much more coming soon. I have two extraordinary conversations in the Can one with Kevin wo, my dear friend here in Santa Fe and Kmo, the notorious, legendary confederate podcaster who just published a trial log, the first part of the trial log between the three of us on his own show.Michael (5m 27s):Highly recommend you go check that out. And then also an episode with Caveat Magister, the resident philosopher of Burning Man who published an extraordinary book last year, turned your Life into Art, which resulted in a very long, vulnerable, profound and hilarious conversation between the two of us about our own adventures and misadventures and the relationship between Psycho Magic and Burning Man and Meow Wolf and Disney and Jurassic Park. Oh, and speaking of which, another piece of bait to throw on the hook for you subscribers.Michael (6m 12s):I am about to start a Jurassic Park book club this spring. I will be leading the group in the Discord server and in the Facebook group and on live calls chapter by chapter through the book that changed the world. I've an intense and intimate relationship with this book. I was there at the world premier in 1993. I grew up doing Dinosaur Diggs with the book's Primary Paleontological consultant, Robert Bocker. I have a dress for tattoo, et cetera. I've sold the painting to Ian, not to Ian Malcolm, the Jeff Goldblum, but I did name my son after that mathematician.Michael (6m 59s):Anyway, yes, much, much, much to discuss, especially because you know, one of the craziest things about this year is that the proverbial velociraptors have escaped the island, you know, and open ai. What, what's in a name? You know, everything is just transforming so fast now. And so I am the dispossessed Cassandra that will lead you through some kibbitz in Doug rush cuffs language. Please join us, everybody subscribing Tock or anybody on Patreon at five bucks or more will be privy to those live calls and I really hope to see you in there.Michael (7m 47s):And with all of that shilling behind me now, please give it up for the marvelous Aaron Cruz and Daphne Krantz. Two people with whom I can confidently entrust your minds. Enjoy. Okay, let's just dive in. Sure. Aaron Daphne. Hi, future fossils. You're here.Michael (8m 26s):Awesome. This took us like what, nine months to schedule this.Daphne (8m 30s):A slow burn, but we, here we go. It's great to hear me here,Ehren (8m 33s):Brother. It is, yeah. And once again, anything that gets rescheduled always ends up turning out better. Like I, I was just thinking, I'm really glad we actually didn't do this interview nine months ago, just in terms of life experience between now and then. I don't know what that's gonna translate to in a conversation, but personally I feel a lot more prepared to talk to you rightDaphne (8m 51s):Now. A hundred percent agree.Michael (8m 53s):Cool. Okay, so let's just dive in then. Both of you are doing really interesting work in the explosive emerging sector of, in one way or another, dealing with people's trauma, dealing with people's various like life crisis issues. And having met both of you through the festival world, which was a scene of pretty rampant abuse and escapism. And I met you both as what my friend in town here, Mitch Minno would call like psychedelic conservatives, where I felt like there were a bunch of like elder millennials who were kind of trying to help that had been in the scene for a little long and they were really working to steer people into a more grounded and integrated approach to extasis in the festival world.Michael (9m 52s):And all of us have seen our fair share of, and perhaps also lived through our fair share of right and wrong relationship to the tools and technologies of transcendence. So that's kinda where I wanna take this. And I think maybe the way to start is just by having both of you introduce yourselves and talk a little bit about your path and the various roles that you've kept over the years in this, in adjacent spheres and what led you into the work that you're doing now. And then, yeah, from there we can take it wherever the conversation chooses to lead us. Daphne, we've had you on the show before, so why don't we have Aaron go first? Let's do that.Michael (10m 32s):Okay,Daphne (10m 32s):Awesome. Thank you Mike. Yo, we appreciate you're really eloquent way of creating an environment to kind of settle into here. So Aaron Cruz, I've been really deeply immersed in psychedelics for 15 years. My first foray into the world, or in curiosity, was actually going to school in Ohio State University for fellowship in anthropology. And coming it from the perspective of looking at 16th, 15th century around the time of the, the conquest in indigenous cultures utilizing plant medicine ceremony ritual as a community harmonizer agent, as a tool for collective wisdom, also for ceremonial divine communion, but very much from an ivory tower perspective.Daphne (11m 15s):I was not very much engaged with psychedelics at that particular lens outside of a foray into a couple of opportunities at all. Good music festival or different things like that. But I beg the question about is using these plant medicines with intentionality, will it create a more symbiotic way of life? A way of understanding the interdependence between the natural landscape, humanity, culture, community building and personal evolution. So it wasn't until major psychedelic experience in 2008 where I had probably inadvisable amount of L s D in the middle of a, an event and went into a full system to dissolve to the, the good degree. I actually didn't even know my name for several hours, but, but what I did feel that came to recognize was just this deep sense of connection to the soul of, of others.Daphne (12m 4s):A sense that e, each one of us sped our best efforts with cultural conditioning, social conditioning, how we're races, peers, we had a desire to appreciated, embraced. There's this deep sense of tribal kinship that I think I felt from everybody wanted to explore whether they were wearing a grateful dead shirt, a ballerina tutu or flat cap or whatever it was. And we wear these different types of masks of her own safety and security and and sense of self. But beneath that facade, I just felt this deep, rich desire to be a sense of belonging and connection and desire to be a p a child of the universe for lack of a better term. So that kind of really set me off from that tone as you shared, is that this rapidly accelerated from place of recreation to a deep of place of deep spiritual potency.Daphne (12m 46s):And, and from that place on the alchemical frontier, as I call that kind of festival type of realm where many, whether they're using compounds for escapism or they're trying to embody or embrace a particular lifestyle that they can then translate and seed into their own default realities or wherever that is almost train Jedi training grounds or whatever you could consider that to be. However, your orientation around it, that is, I just felt a deep devotion to trying to support those particular realms. First through workshop ceremony and cultivation of experiences that had some integrity and bones to using these things mindfully, actually to producing events. I was producing a co-producing original back in the day where I believe I met you, Mike, with root wire with the popio about 2010 through 2013 or nine through 12, maybe one of those epox learned a lot.Daphne (13m 35s):It was a lot of bootstrapping and blood, sweat and everything else trying to get the, those events going and, but they're really creating these containers for radical creativity and self-expression and where music and visionary arts could be upheld in a new model of, of honoring them and mutual out something that never took, took root as much as I would love it to. And then kind of translated into producing Lee Festival out here in Asheville, North Carolina for six years. And the ethos behind that was trying to create a dynamic cultural atmosphere, 10 to 15 different nations, people of all walks of life and traditions expressing their music arts culture ceremony and using that as a catalyst to kind of break down isms to reveal that the true depth and value that the rich, creative and cultural expression has beyond politic, beyond social conditioning.Daphne (14m 21s):It's a, you hear one thing about Iranians on on tv, but if you see them doing their Sufi circle dance and chanting and when they're cooking their food at the end of the day, it just really, it's amazing how humanity and expression in those places would really quickly help people bypass certain prejudices without saying a word. We're often dialogue, even intentional and conscious dialogue tend to fail. The expression goes beyond that. So, and of course there is still a rich culture of psychedelics and but these places are, it's kind of underground. It's not necessarily, there's no curated container specifically to facilitate initiation of rights of passage. It's a little bit more rogue, rogue experiencing.Daphne (15m 2s):So after that kind of materialized up to Covid where I was really actually even at that point seeking an exit strategy from that realm, the intensity of producing events is extremely vigorous. I remember in 2019 I had 7,800 emails and countless calls just coordinating three festivals and I'd have children, my three girls just hanging on every limb. And that one more call, one more, one more thing. So it was becoming quite burned out and Covid kind of did me at the time. I didn't think so a bit of a favor and giving me, kind of forcing me into an exit strategy to re-identify myself, not as just a producer and an event organizer, but someone that is deeply passionate about initiatory culture. My catalyst was festivals for initiation or creative initiation.Daphne (15m 43s):And then I went back to where it all began, really sat with the medicine once again, brought myself back into sacramental ceremony. And then I started really gazing at the broad sweeping frontier, the vanguard of the psychedelic emergence now, and saying, this may be a time I could be transparent and real and open about my deep care and use of these plants and medicines for almost 15 years. And so I went ahead and I got a professional coaching certification from I C F, I got a third wave psychedelic certification. It was the first a psychedelic coaching program in the nation back in 2020, in six months of learning the panoramic of psychedelics, preparation, integration, the neuroplasticity, the ethics considerations, dosaging compound understanding.Daphne (16m 24s):So getting that whole holistic review and then the cultivating a practice, a facilitation coaching practice based upon using that psychedelic as a catalyst but in a continuum of deeply intentional self-work and self-care and, and moving into that space with an openness to receive insights. But then really about embodiment. What do you do after you have those lightning bolts of revelation and how do you make that have an impact in your life? So that's been my last few years is serving as a, a ceremonial facilitator and coach in at the psychedelic realm and also a harm reductionist. People are looking for a high integrity experience but have a compound, don't really know how to go about it in a way that's intentional and safe. Really kind of stepping into that space and holding that container for them and being an ally.Ehren (17m 6s):Awesome. Daphne. Hi. Lovely to be back here with you Michael. So I'll start from the beginning and kind of give my whole story inspired by Aaron and the way he just articulated that trajectory. And I started out like we met each other. I think we might have met each other also at Root Wire back in that era. And I found myself in this world as a music producer. I was really heavily investing time and energy into building a music career, DJing, producing under the name few Texture for a long time, starting in around 2009. And that was my main gig for about six years and had some early psychedelic experiences when I was pretty young.Ehren (17m 52s):14, 15, 16 kind of set me off on a path to where I really had a strong inclination that there was something there and was always very interested in them and came into the festival world, into the music world with a very idealistic lens of what these substances could do for us individually as humanity and had my ideal ideals broken completely in a lot of ways. And what I experienced personally through relationships with collaborators, through my own inability to show up in the way that I wanted to in terms of my own ideals, thinking that because I took psychedelics, I was gonna somehow magically be this person who could live up to these ideals of relational integrity and honesty and like really being a beacon of what I perceived as like light, right?Ehren (18m 50s):And really had some issues with spiritual ego when I was younger and kind of had the sense of I've seen these other realms, I, I know more than other people, I'm special. I had all that story and really ended up harming me and other people around me. And it took some pretty significant relational abuse actually that I was experiencing and participating in through a creative relationship to kind of break me outta that illusion, right? That because I am creating interesting forward thinking music with a psychedelic bent in this kind of wild and free community festival community, that somehow I was immune from all of the shadow that exists in our culture in the psyche, in all of these places that I was just very blind to.Ehren (19m 44s):And I think it's a pretty normal developmental thing in your early twenties, and I mean at any age ongoing of course to be, to have places that are less conscious and those are blind spots, right? And so I really was forced through my musical career, through my participation in psychedelic culture to either have the choice to look at those blind spots or continue to ignore them. And I'd look back and I'm really grateful that I, I really did at a certain point be like, damn, I need to go to therapy. You can't do this on my own. I'm really hurting. And in about 2015 I kind of stepped away from music pretty hardcore and really shifted my focus because I was in too much pain.Ehren (20m 28s):I had experienced a lot of relational trauma around that time and started to just do other things peripherally related to music. I worked for MOG for a little bit building synthesizers and found myself doing a lot of personal healing work, kind of getting really real about my own inability to show up as what at the time I was perceiving as like a good person. In retrospect there it was so much more complex than that. And over time, being able to drop the layers of shame and the layers of self-judgment around a lot of those relational patterns I was living out that of course are familial and cultural and all these other things. But I ended up starting doing health coaching work around that time.Ehren (21m 11s):And Michael, that's something that we've connected on on the past episodes around some of the epigenetic coaching work. I do a lot of genetic testing, I do a lot of personalized nutrition, peak performance type work and was doing that pretty steadily from about 2015 to 2019 and I'm still doing it, but over the last three and a half years or so, went and got a master's in mental health counseling, started to really find that a lot of the people I was working with and drawing from my own experiences in therapy and healing, I was like, okay, nutrition and all of these physiological things are very important.Ehren (21m 53s):And what I'm seeing is most of these people need emotional healing. Most of these people need more psycho emotional awareness and healing from trauma and relational patterns. And I just felt really unprepared to do that work as a coach at the time. And also had just tremendous openings into understanding myself better into being able to, yeah, be with discomfort and be with pain in a way that when I was younger was totally off the table. It was like I'm just gonna distract myself fully from all of that through, through jugs, through sensory experiences through the festival world.Ehren (22m 37s):And that's where I got drawn and no regret, like I love that it was what shaped me and I still engage in all of that just with this slightly different way of being with it, not as an escape, but as a way of celebration in contrast with really being able to also be with the more difficult, darker shadow aspects of life and seeing that as a pathway to wholeness rather than avoiding those things. And so that's the work I'm doing now as a therapist, as someone who does psychedelic integration work. I've also done publications on psychedelics.Ehren (23m 18s):I have an article that was in the Journal of Mental Health Counseling a couple years ago. I have another one that's pending right now on psilocybin assisted group therapy that I hope gets through in the international journal group psychotherapy right now. And I'm planning some research also on gender and psychedelics in terms of the way psychedelic experiences impact gender nonconforming and gender expansive people's perception of gender. And I know for me that was one of the early indications that I was transgender was a mushroom experience when I was in my early twenties when I was like, wait, I think I'm a lesbian, I have no idea what this means. And I had no idea how to process it.Ehren (23m 58s):And I kind of stuffed it back down for years and two years until it was just too obvious. But I have, yeah, that's in the works working on IRB approval for that this year. So yeah, kind of have a research bent, do general therapy work with people, do psychedelic assisted work, also still do genetic testing, epigenetic coaching, working on more of the physiological side with people and coming from a holistic health perspective. But yeah, just also to add the other piece in here, I did my internship and worked for a little over a year substance abuse rehab as well, doing therapy there. And so as someone who's been a long time proponent of psychedelics and the potential healing capacity of them, still fully believe that despite my own, and I've had many important experiences to counter what I was saying earlier around them also creating sometimes an idealized version of self without doing the work to get there.Ehren (24m 57s):I worked in a rehab working with people who've had maladaptive relationships with substances and it was a very important counter to my own, again, idealized image and idealized perception of the human relationship with substances. And so I, coming out of that, I actually left in December starting in opening up my private practice with I think a much more balanced understanding of all the different ways humans can be in relationship to substances from full on avoidance to transcendence and self-awareness. And I really love to be able to hold both of those perspectives and work with people on all sides of that spectrum because there's not just necessarily a clean one thing one way or the other for people.Ehren (25m 45s):I find myself and Michael, you and I have talked about this weaving in and out of those relationships of where we end up relating to different substances in good or more harmful ways. And I think there's an importance to be able to be honest with ourselves and with people that we're working with around, yeah, what is this really? What is this really doing for me? And what am I getting out of this? And sometimes it's okay to lean on a substance for pain relief or for disassociation intentionally, right? But like at a certain point, like how do we learn how to take what, and I think this is true regardless of how we're using any substance, how do we learn from it and take what this substance is helping us with and kind of learn how to do it on our own in certain ways.Ehren (26m 36s):And so that's, I think maybe where this roundabout description of my life right now is leading to is that point of I'm very interested in regardless of the substance, regardless of what it is, whether it's heroin, whether you're using heroin to avoid painful emotion, how do you learn how to be without yourself, without the substance, right? Or whether you're using ayahuasca or L s D to access the transcendent and become more aware of the deep capacity for inner love and compassion that's already inside of you. Like how do you learn how to do that in a stable, grounded way on your own right? And I, I think there's a, a parallel, right that I think is lost in the discourse about drugs in general that I'd love to bring in.Michael (27m 22s):So that's actually right where I want to be for this cuz I think should not come as a surprise to anyone that there is this rather obvious isomorphism, I guess in people's relationship to ecstatic events generally to the festival as some, as a phenomenon that has its origins in the acknowledgement and re you know, the recognition and enactment of a relationship to sort of vertical access or a horizontal, like a transcendent experience of time rather than just a one damn thing after another duration Kronos clock time that there's, it's an observance of a kind of a holy dimension to our lives.Michael (28m 17s):And at one point these were all woven together much more intimately than they are today in our lives. The, the holiday has become something that is, and the festivals generally have become something that is more about a pressure valve or kind of escape from the oppression of our lives rather than something that's woven into the fabric of, or our everyday expect the observances of sacred hours in a monastic sense. And so likewise, I think if you were to believe the anthropological take on substance use, the various substances were held more like, more formally, like I think that all of us have participated in a number of discussions, are well aware of ayahuasca in particular being something that is still very much implicated within this fabric of specific cultural utility under understand and practice.Michael (29m 24s):But a lot of these things exist. For instance, ketamine is something that is either in, it's used as a medical anesthetic primarily until just a few years ago, or it's used as a club drug. And so there's a, it doesn't have that same sort of unity of purpose and the same clarity as far as the way that it's being applied and it lacks a, a lineage or a continuity where it's not like John Lilly had a, a tribe of people that he coached on how to do this. He was like people experimenting on their own. And I mean the same goes also for other, more, more recently discovered synthetic substances like L S D and also for substances that had a more focused and time-honored indigenous tradition around them like psilocybin, but either through just the proliferation of GarageBand type experimentation taking over as the primary cultural mode or whatever like we have.Michael (30m 30s):So there's this whole spectrum of the ways that different substances either have managed to maintain or never or have gotten away from, or never actually even had a system of protocols within which their use could be more or less responsibly engaged. And of course, I'm not saying that there's a ton of examples in which ayahuasca is not even within, even within settings that claim to be responsible. And anyway, this is just a nimbus of considerations around the question, which is where is the line between escapism healthier approaches or like sometimes escapism, like you just said, Daphne is actually healthy if it's encountered in a way or if we people are en engaging this in a way that is not just con ongoing peak ex seeking of peak experiences.Michael (31m 28s):I mean, I think one more thing I'll say to this is that I've seen people, and it should, I'm sure anyone listening to this has also seen people who engage traditions that are about in more, you might think like endogenous substances like running or meditation that have strong cultural containers, but there are always leaks in these containers or these containers themselves are not typically are, are not healthy. Like I've seen ayahuasca ceremonies that were the, the, that particular community depended on the patronage in order to do its work of people who had managed to kind of trick themselves into thinking that they were doing important spiritual work, but were just kind of had become gluttons or for punishment or like masochists that were just in there to purge, heal DNA traumas or whatever for their retroactive lineal healing week after week after week.Michael (32m 31s):And nothing was actually changing. They had gotten themselves into a loop. And so I'm, yeah, I'm curious how does one ever, how does one actually even begin to recognize when something has crossed over from healthy into unhealthy? Like what is, where is the line? It seems rather contextual and I mean there were, it's funny because, I mean just to bring it back to festivals and then I'll stop, it wasn't ever really clear to me. I mean, it was clear when lip service was being paid to transformation and that was a load of shit because I think that was used as a lure by and still is by event organizers and promoters to bait people into buying a ticket but wasn't really held in the right way in those events.Michael (33m 19s):And then there are times when every effort is made to do this stuff sincerely, but is not really handled in a way that makes it success, you know. And the same can be said for anything, I mean for like educational television is an example of something that people have been fighting over for almost a century. Whether the medium, whether the format of this makes these tools effective, potentially effective, problematic in their actual implementation, et cetera. So this is a much bigger conversation than a conversation about drugs really. It's a conversation about how mu how far we can engage in a particular type of relation to a, a practice of self transformation or transcendence or illumination or education or whatever before it becomes more trouble than it's worth or before.Michael (34m 11s):We need to call in some sort of balancing factor. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts at length and I'd love to hear you kind of back and forth about this.Daphne (34m 19s):Yeah, there's so much there man. That is a panoramic for sure. One of the things to kind of look at here is that the idea of the recreational use of, of a psychoactive or a psychedelic compound is 50, 60 years old. The lineage of using Sacramento entheogenic compounds is at least 40,000 years old for the time of megalithic cave paintings, size of football fields made with depth pigmentation that is with techniques that have somehow have the endurance to be still on those walls this year later is with sac ceremonial initiations and MAs and sabertooth and many mushrooms along the bottom.Daphne (34m 59s):So perhaps even people have said such as stems and McKenna, the origin of cultural or creativity of artistic creativity might have been spawned or germinated through the use of psychedelic compounds, the self-awareness and the potential for di interdimensional realization. But you look at Theon that was used with eloc mysteries, the type of reverence people have taken for one time in their entire life to, to walk to the Elian temple from Athens, the distance of a marathon fasting, moving into that experience with great care, great reverence, having an initiation with an ergo wine, a compound that's now been synthesizing the LSDs in 47. But originally was the, the rye, the barley grain, the ergot there infused into a beverage and seeing the immortality of the soul dramatized in front of you by our initiatory rights of passage theater in Egypt.Daphne (35m 50s):And you know, the temples of Ocirus, which had little mandrakes wrapped around its feet, or isis, which had little mushrooms at the feed. And those particular lineages of priesthoods and priestesses would utilize compounds to commune and learn the subtle language of that particular medicine in collaboration with ritual and practice to help to uphold virtues of different aspects of the civilization. And you go all around from the flesh of the god's, Aztec, MasTec, olmec, TOK cultures, ayahuasca, there's probably 10 different brews in that region, thousands of years old Abor, pati bush, west Africa, psilocybins everywhere, Druids Nordic culture.Daphne (36m 31s):I mean, but you look at the way upon which peyote cactus, you used it in a way that was like, here is an ally, here is a teacher, here is a compatriot a an essence of something that I work in cohesion with in order for me to learn how to navigate my own life evolutionary process in greater symbiotic relationship with the world around me, how I commune with the divine and with more, I guess visceral potency to allow that philosophical faith that aspiring Christians across the world hold this philosophical arm length faith that when things go sour where send in love and light when things are fine, I forget I'm even affiliated or associated with any kind of denomination.Daphne (37m 15s):And it's really an interesting thing when you have a different mindset of we are in a continuum of connectivity to an interdimensional web of life and that there's an interdependence between us and these different realms of being to try to embody and embrace a life that is a virtue or an integrity or create community based around these deeper ethics and values that are being kind of almost divinely inspired. And now you're coming into a timer where that has been systematically eradicated beyond all else, whether it's the early Catholic church with the Council of naia, that plant medicine, the original Nixon move was in 3 89 ad pretty much when plant medicine was absolutely persecuted feminine that he, the hosts or the feminine energy that often was the catalyst of working together in communion with the plants and offering it the original catacombs, the nasta catacombs where they find ergot wines and such that probably the original Eucharist was a psychedelic medicine.Daphne (38m 13s):All of that was completely ousted and nothing has been persecuted harder than plant medicine. And so then coming into contemporary society, the reintroduction, whether was through the scientific land, rogue experimentation, GaN coming up with massive amounts of compounds, Albert Hoffman. But when it started to infuse into academia, it again started moving people into this awareness that is, this compound is not just therapeutic, it is creating something within it that is inspiring Nas, a deeper wisdom, a deeper sense of internal communion with life force that is beyond something that can be charted on a bar graph or triangulated with an abacus.Daphne (38m 56s):And so that, and then they, the considerations of set and setting and if you're gonna host an experiment, how do you, how do you hold a psychedelic space without being on a psychedelic? And there is a lot of challenges there because it just, it is a type of experience that almost necessitates an A, a visceral embodied awareness to even understand how to support in any kind of way because of the potency and the gravity and the expansion of what that is is something you can't read on chapter seven and have a good grasp on how to facilitate or how to curate. But that whole experience, what it ended up happening is that the disruptive nature of people thinking, perceiving, expanding in a way that is unformed or nonconform to the status quos growing industrial complex and commercial material culture created a real schism reality.Daphne (39m 47s):And so people that felt like they wanted to embrace and imbibe had to flee, had to go to the woods and had to lock themselves. And Stella Stellar or like Chris Beige who just came out with L S D in the mining universe of absolutely prolific book for 20 years, had to hide his L S D ceremonial work and testing and deep psychospiritual results until he was 10 years past 10 retired to, to finally come out with the fruits of his labor. It just created his isolatory world and framework. And so now we're saying, escapees, please come back. Like you all had to run away to do your compound and try to find yourself and your consciousness, but you, we want you back in community and the old deadheads and those that are kind of in that lineage is like, it's just not safe over there.Daphne (40m 30s):We're gonna keep it in the parks, we're gonna keep it in the fields and if we come back over there, we're gonna be always outcasted as the hippies that are just avantgarde and fringe. And so it's a real interesting dynamic in culture where we want to infuse the intelligence and the beauty of the transformation that these things can uphold. But then we don't actually have a paradigm that allows people to be expansive and allows people to be avantgarde and ecstatic in these different things without feeling that they're actually a real challenge to our core sets of cultural beliefs. So part of this kind of third wave that we're seeing right now is the reintroduction of that outcasted, psychedelic culture.Daphne (41m 10s):And it's now in a, into a space of deeper therapeutic respect where they're seeing through the results of John Hopkins in Imperial College of London and all these other studies that the power in P T S D complex, P T S D and a addiction and trauma for, with intentionality with a progressive path that includes a holistic wellbeing, body, mind, spirit care, deep intentionality, using it as a catalyst, catalyst and integration process that this can be something that can allow somebody to at least get a sense where is that inner compass, where is that inner sense of who I am? And it's an immersive culture, so you kind of drip dry, you dunk 'em in that space, they get, oh, that's what home is. I, okay, I remember, oh wait, it's going away from me.Daphne (41m 51s):It's go, I'm starting to forget. And that's where devotional practice and self-care and all those things are the real way to really supporting and sustaining that. But I think where psychedelics help is it imprints or imbues a remembrance of where that space is and to your port Michael, like once you get that deep message, then it's time to do the work. What decisions in my life, what relationships, habits, patterns, distractions, what is in my life that is taking me away from that center, make those earnest actions, make those earnest choices, and then have a sense of where that foundation is. Then if you name for growing, maybe you do revisit with the medicine in an alliance in a way that is understanding that it isn't, it's an aid, it's not a, it's not a panacea, it's never meant to be, but it helps you at times to say, okay, here's a reminder, here's your truth, here's where you can be if you let go of the drama, the guilt, shame and baggage and, but really you still got a lot of work to do on those faces before you can say that you're, we're all we're a whole.Daphne (42m 48s):So there's a nice, there's a nice kind of panoramic or a dance going on here with this third waves trying to rebrace indigenous culture and the long lineage of ceremony, trying to respect the research, trying to bring people back from the fridge of alchemy and then trying to bring about awareness to those that have been tabooed for 50 years in the Nixon war. That there's actually some vitality and merit to re reengaging with this consciousness expansion. Beautiful.Ehren (43m 12s):I wanna pick up on a couple pieces there, Erin, especially around the embodiment piece and where I see that as being a really critical component of the way that psychedelics are being reintroduced into the therapeutic community, into the way we're looking at this. And I kind of want to frame it in the context of the way Western psychotherapy has developed over the last 100 years because Michael, as you brought up, we don't have a lineage necessarily that we're drawing from. As these things are starting to become back, back into research, back into culture. John Lilly didn't have a tribe to draw from, right? He didn't. He was out there outlaw on his own doing it.Ehren (43m 55s):And in so many ways, what we're seeing right now is the people that have been experimenting, coming back together, having the capacity to get federal grant fund private funding and having these inroads into saying, all right, now that we've had these experiences, how do we codify them and provi present them in a way that's palatable to the skeptics, to the people that have assumed that this is just for hippies and people that you know off their rocker, right? And what I wanna look at is like the sense of when psychedelics were being explored in the fifties and sixties, the dominant modalities and theories that were being used therapeutically were still very Freudian and psychodynamic, psychoanalytic really meaning that predominantly they were mental, there was not necessarily the component of the body being brought in gestalt therapy, definitely the early kind of version of a lot of somatic therapies that are more popular now.Ehren (44m 57s):But that wasn't popular therapy at that time. It was being developed in the fifties and sixties, but it didn't make its way into a larger mainstream understanding of the importance of an embodied relationship to the mind and to the emotions until much later on, and especially in the nineties, early two thousands and up to now, there's been a pretty strong somatic revolution in psychotherapy saying, we need to incorporate the body, we need to incorporate the way that most people have heard at this point, the idea that trauma is stored in the body, in the nervous system. And there's absolutely a truth to that and it's kind of an oversimplification of it, but it's true that order to access the, the way we can reprocess memories, the way we can re-pattern our nervous systems, like we do have to include the body for the most part.Ehren (45m 49s):Sometimes inside is enough, but rarely, right? And so that's the trap that psychotherapy and talk therapy found itself in for a long time was not including that. And so that was also the frame that psychedelic work was being looked at when it was being researched in the fifties when it was being explored also through the kind of the outliers as well. I don't think there was as much of a com a understanding of that embodied nature of the experience as we're talking about now. And when you look at some of the models that are being put forth, I'm specifically thinking of Rosalyn Watts at Imperial College in London has this really beautiful model called the ACE model or accept connect and body model that they're using in psilocybin research that really includes the body, right?Ehren (46m 40s):Includes the what is happening in your body in this moment as you're experiencing this, and is it possible to move towards this and treat whatever is happening, whether it's painful, disturbing, difficult to be with compassion and with acceptance. And that parallels most, if not all of the current understandings of some of the best ways to do therapy with people looking at things like internal family systems or EMDR or many of the therapeutic modalities that essentially ask people to revisit traumatic memories or traumatic experiences, traumatic emotions with a deeper sense of love and compassion.Ehren (47m 20s):And when you look at the core of a lot of what the psychedelic research is showing, I think around why these things work for trauma healing, why these, these things work for PTs D, why these things work for longstanding depression or addiction, it's because they do give people access, like you said, Aaron, to that remembrance, right? To that remembrance of I'm more than this limited ego self that experiences pain and suffering. I actually have access, I can remember this access to some source of love that I feel in my body, I feel in my heart. And I can use that as a way to soften and be with the parts of me that I generally don't want to be with.Ehren (48m 2s):Like it opens up that capacity to do that. And it's the same thing that I do with clients through internal family systems and other ways of psychotherapy. It just magnifies that capacity for people to find that within themselves really fast and really quickly. You know what I mean? If you've ever done M D M A, like you just wanna love everyone, you feel it. It's an embodied experience, right? And so the levels of that which people can access that in those states gives people this greater capacity than like you said, to almost bookmark that or have a way of coming back to it, remembering ongoing.Ehren (48m 43s):And so that's the integration work. And I wanna bring this back, Michael, also to what you were saying about the institutions of festival culture, taking these experiences and marketing them as transformational and actually somehow pulling that label away from that embodied experience of what it's like to have that remembrance that into the right conditions and circumstances creates the conditions for internal transformation through that remembering, right? Like that's the individual experience that sometimes happens in a place where you have autonomy to do whatever drugs you want and beyond whatever wavelength you want to get on with a bunch of people who are also doing the same thing, right?Ehren (49m 32s):That approximates in some ways what we're seeing in the therapeutic research, just not in a contained setting, right? And then seeing festival culture kind of take that and label the festival as that rather than the experience that some people have as that. And I think that it brings up this larger conversation right now around the psychedelic industry and what we can learn maybe from the failures of transformational festival culture and the successes when we're talking about how psychedelics might be marketed to people as a therapeutic tool. Because I see the exact same pitfalls, I see the exact same appeal to any company that wants to present the psychedelic experience as inherently healing no matter what.Ehren (50m 22s):In the same way that a transformational festival wants to present the idea that coming to this festival is gonna gonna create transformation for you no matter what, and leaves out all of the specific conditions and containers and importance of all the pieces that come together to create the safety, create the container, create the, the ripening of that internal remembering and what do you do with it, right? What do you actually do with it? What, how are you being prompted to know what to do with it? And I too, Michael, remember the notion of the transformational festival and going, what does this actually mean?Ehren (51m 2s):What are we trying to transform into? What is this? What is this thing? What is this buzzword? And it's funny because the most of the transformation I, I've experienced in my own life has come from outside of that. And then those experiences now actually are like these celebratory experiences that I'm not running away from at the time they were more these escapist type things. And again, I'm gonna steer it back to that question of like, where's that line? Because I, I think it's in context with all this, all the things I was, I've just mentioned around, it's so contextual, it's so individual around where that line is for people. It's so individual where that line is between going and wanting to have an experience versus actually having it.Ehren (51m 50s):And there's no way for me or you or Erin to be an arbiter of that for someone it has someone deciding, but doing it in an honest way, right? Of like, how much am I actually moving towards parts of myself that I haven't been able to be with or haven't been able to understand or haven't been able to find love and compassion for or treat in a way that's more humane or more in relationship to a higher set of ideals or perhaps a more maybe something like an indigenously informed I set of ideals around interconnectedness and how much am I continuing to engage with substances as a way to trick myself into thinking that I might be doing that or that just I'm straight up just having a great time so I don't have to deal with that shit.Ehren (52m 45s):And I think that there's the potential for either of that in the festival world, in the commercialized, institutionalized medicalized model, in the coaching model in any of these places. And I think I'm gonna just speak from my own experience as a therapist, like working in a rehab, right? Like I've seen people, you know, substances aside come in and pretend like they're doing the work and just totally diluting themselves and, and we see what that looks like. But sometimes it's easier for people just to kind of pretend like they're going through the steps and the motions and that's what people are ready for and that's okay too. That has to be part of, of the process.Ehren (53m 26s):I've experienced that. I've experienced that self illusion of thinking I'm going somewhere when I'm really just treading water. And there's that, I think it's an important and a natural step actually in any part, right? It's kind of the pre-contemplation part in the stages of change where you have to want to change before you want to change before you change. And I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing that the idea of transformation might be prompted by something like a transformational festival or by the idea of doing therapy or by the idea of whatever modality you're seeking to change with. But yeah, I just get the sense that there's no clear answer to that question around where that line is it's individual and that I'm curious to explore more around like how we've experienced that festival realm and how that might translates into the work we're doing now and what we're seeing in the larger context of, of kind of the rollout of a more mainstream version of psychedelics.Michael (54m 24s):Can I focus this a little bit before I bounce it back to you, Aaron? Because I think, and thank you both for that. One of the, the things that strikes me about all of this is that I think about that classic rat park experiment that, you know, where it showed that laboratory rats don't just by default prefer the cocaine button over food, that there are these un unhealthy addictive patterns are actually, and I talked about this, another expert in unhealthy addictive patterns. Charles Shaw, right? Old friend and complicated figure.Ehren (55m 4s):I love that episode by the way, way back.Michael (55m 6s):She's not way back. Charles is somebody who has been a real pain in the ass to a lot of people over the years, but I think really walks this line now and his, he's, he's gonna mature as a wounded healer into the role of addiction counselor and helping people through these same kind of trials that he himself has been through in his life. And Charles made the point in that I think it was episode 58 or thereabouts, that the addiction is actually the brain doing what it should be doing. Now it's, and I'll be talking about this with some neuroscientists at some point this year also, that the brain, if you think about it as like an uncertainty reduction or free energy minimization, these terms that are floating around now, that the brain is a tool for inference.Michael (55m 50s):And so it likes to be able to make parsimonious predictions about its own future states and about the future of its environment. And in a weird way, addiction facilitates in that. Like when I had Eric Wargo on the show, he was talking about how many people he thinks are precognitive individuals like Harlan Ellison famous science fiction writer who wrote a lot of time travel fiction and has a, you know, that a lot of these people have problems with alcoholism or, or drug use. Philip Kate, Dick, there's a way in which I'm drunk today and I'm gonna be drunk tomorrow, is actually doing, is the brain doing what it's been tasked to do? So there's that on one piece. And then the other piece is that the rat park thing, when at that experiment, when you put rats together with one another in an environment that allows a much more so like a greater surface area for social encounters and more exercise and so on, that they actually prefer the company of other rats and quote unquote healthy behaviors over these repetitive self stimulating addictive behaviors.Michael (56m 57s):And I look at the last few years and how covid in particular seems it the lockdowns people getting stuck in their home for months at a time, the uncertainty of a, a really turbulent environment, the specter of these an ever tightening cinch or vice of government interventions or just the fear of people being as hats and not doing socially responsible behaviors as a res, as a reaction to this crisis. I mean there's just like all of these ways that that mental health has come to the foreground through all of us going through this collective trauma together.Michael (57m 42s):And like we were, Aaron and I were talking about before the call started, the living in Santa Fe in New Mexico, in a place that is so much of its character is about it being a concentration of indigenous people living on reservation, trying to make their way in, in community with wave after wave of European colonists that matters of we're like this relationship between oppression, trauma, substance abuse, or addictive behavior. It's all really interesting. And like the last piece I'll stack on this is when I had Tyson Yoko on the show and Tyson talked about how that this kind of pattern is not unique to peoples that have a very centuries long history of abuse and oppression.Michael (58m 31s):There is, you see opioid crisis coming up very prominently in Pennsylvania, coal mining communities whose way of life has been disrupted by changes in the energy sector by, by massive motions in the world market. And so suddenly you have lots of alcoholism and Oxycontin and fentanyl abuse and so on in, in these places as well. I mean, I guess Daphne especially curious in your sense, you know, in, in this relationship with you're thinking on transgender matters issues, this thing about this relationship between, like you said earlier about getting yourself out of the cage of a particular maladaptive model of self and the way that's related to getting oneself out of the cage of one's condition, like the actual material conditions of one's life.Michael (59m 25s):Because again, just a last callback to another episode, it, the episode I had with Chris Ryan who his book Civilized to Death, he talks about how far we've gone in the modern era from kind of environment that is actually good for the human body and the human mind and how, you know, the covid being a kind of apotheosis of that, of everyone living almost entirely in, in these digital spaces or being forced through economic concerns to work in very dangerous environments without adequate protection. So I mean, I just, yeah, a yarn ball of stuff, but really curious about this, and I feel like you've both addressed some of this already, but just to refocus on this particular corner of it, the way that, you know, addictive behaviors and abusive patterns seem to be the result of structural issues and that the self is also something that emerges out of a dynamic and relational set of feedbacks with that environment.Michael (1h 0m 43s):And so who you are is a kind of reflection of or ever-evolving trace fossil of the world in which you find yourself. And so like when people talk about getting over trauma, like one of the, one of the big, the three main things that people talk about are again and again and all of them find some sort of foothold in or expression in various psychedelic practices. But one is service, one is creative work writing or inquiry, right? Autobiographical writing especially. And then one is travel or pilgrimage and there's a way in which the psychedelic ceremonial container can facilitate anyone or all three of those.Michael (1h 1m 27s):But yeah, I mean it just strikes me that like more, as more and more people come out as neurodivergent or come out as trans in some way or another, or are trying to maintain their sanity in a set of socioeconomic circumstances over which they have no control, that there's something that comes into light here about the way that we're no long like in a, I don't know, I put it like self-discovery of our parents' generation of the second wave of psychedelics in the west was in its own way more about breaking free of the strictures of squared dom, but had an emphasis on much like it was part and parcel with this other thing that was going on, which was this proliferation of lifestyle consumerism.Michael (1h 2m 20s):And Charles Shaw and I talked about that too, about the way that these drives for transcendence were co-opted by finding yourself, meaning settling into kind of understanding rather than a phase change into a more plural or multidimensional or metamorphic understanding of the self. And especially in a regime of extremely granular and pervasive and pernicious behavioral engineering empowered by digital surveillance technologies. It strikes me that there's something that Richard Doyle has talked about this, that like psychedelics are kind of a training wheels for the Transhuman condition and for what it means to live in a network society where you may not actually want to settle on an identity at all.Michael (1h 3m 9s):You know that the identity itself is the trap. So I don't know, I don't know. I thought I was focusing things, but I just blew it up into, anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that particular matter.Ehren (1h 3m 20s):I'll speak briefly to just that notion around connection and social in the Rat Park piece. I mean there's a reason why any type of addiction therapy is like the gold standard is group therapy and why AA groups and all these things, despite their problems still are so popular is because getting connected with community and people that actually understand you is probably the most healing thing out of anything more mu, I mean, working through trauma is important, but having a network of people that you can call and be in relationship to is what I've seen to be the most healing thing for people. And it actually brings up this revision of what I was saying before in a way around the transformational festivals where in retrospect, the most transformational thing for me about those spaces I was inhabiting for so long are these sustained continued connections that we have now with each other, right?Ehren (1h 4m 15s):And like that's where the real magic was actually gaining these deeper relationships with people who understand us. And I think when we look at oppression and look at the systems that prevent people from feeling like it's okay to be who they are, or that there's an inherent shame in the case of trans people or inherent fear of being seen or in the case of economic disparity that like you are stuck in this place and you're going to be stripped and taken advantage of and there's no way out, right? It's a very disconnecting, isolating thing. And even though there can be these pockets of connection between people that are continuously stuck in poverty or contin, continuously stuck in a sense of, as a trans person, I'm constantly being repressed and targeted and there is community in that very often the most healing thing that's needed is to actually integrate back into culture and to change the systems that are creating that disconnection and oppression in the first place, right?Ehren (1h 5m 26s):And it's this open question right now for me in terms of when we're talking about substance abuse, like those communities are breeding grounds for it because that's the way people deal. That's they're, they work, right? Substances work. That's why people use them. And I always look at it like there's nothing wrong with you for going with a strategy that works, but when it comes to psychedelics, what you're saying I think is really important around how do we actually integrate this into an understanding of how we are interconnected with other people and that our own personal work needs to include a justice component or a component of social change or influencing other people's healing to other people's place in the world.Ehren (1

How do we get a handle on complex systems thinking? What are the implications of this science for philosophy, and where does philosophical tradition foreshadow findings from the scientific frontier?Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.In this episode we speak with Carlos Gershenson (UNAM website, Google Scholar, Wikipedia, Twitter), SFI Sabbatical Visitor and professor of computer science at the Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, where he leads the Self-organizing Systems Lab, among many other titles you can find in our show notes. For the next hour, we'll discuss his decades of research and writing on a vast array of core complex systems concepts and their intersections with both Western and Eastern philosophical traditions — a first for this podcast.If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us — at santafe.edu/engage.For HD virtual backgrounds of the SFI campus to use on video calls and a chance to win a signed copy of one of our books from the SFI Press, please help us improve our scicomm by completing a survey linked in the show notes.Or just a copy of the recently resurfaced SFI Press Archival Volume Complexity, Entropy, and The Physics of Information.There's still time to apply for the Complexity GAINS UK program for PhD students – apps close March 15th.Or come work for us! We are on the lookout for a new Digital Media Specialist, an Applied Complexity Fellow in Sustainability, a Research Assistant in Emergent Political Economies, and a Payroll, Accounts Payable & Receivable Specialist.You can also join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInMentioned & Related Links:Carlos publishes the Complexity Digest Newsletter.His SFI Seminars to date:A Brief History of BalanceEmergence, (Self)Organization, and ComplexityCriticality: A Balance Between Robustness and AdaptabilityFestina lente (the slower-is-faster effect)Antifragility: Dynamical BalanceW. Ross Ashby & The Law of Requisite VarietyHyperobjectsby Timothy MortonHow can we think the complex?by Carlos Gershenson and Francis HeylighenThe Implications of Interactions for Science and Philosophyby Carlos GershensonComplexity and Philosophyby Francis Heylighen, Paul Cilliers, Carlos GershensonHeterogeneity extends criticalityby Fernanda Sánchez-Puig, Octavio Zapata, Omar K, Pineda, Gerardo Iñiguez, and Carlos GershensonWhen Can we Call a System Self-organizing?by Carlos Gershenson and Francis HeylighenTemporal, Structural, and Functional Heterogeneities Extend Criticality and Antifragility in Random Boolean Networksby Amahury Jafet López-Díaz, Fernanda Sánchez-Puig, and Carlos GershensonWhen slower is fasterby Carlos Gershenson, Dirk HelbingSelf-organization leads to supraoptimal performance in public transportation systemsby Carlos GershensonDynamics of rankingby Gerardo Iñiguez, Carlos Pineda, Carlos Gershenson, & Albert-László BarabásiSelf-Organizing Traffic Lightsby Carlos GershensonDynamic competition and resource partitioning during the early life of two widespread, abundant and ecologically similar fishesby A. D. Nunn, L. H. Vickers, K. Mazik, J. D. Bolland, G. Peirson, S. N. Axford, A. Henshaw & I. G. CowxTowards a general theory of balanceby Carlos GershensonA Calculus for Self-Referenceby Francisco VarelaOn Some Mental Effects of The Earthquakeby William JamesSelf-Organization Leads to Supraoptimal Performance in Public Transportation Systemsby Carlos GershensonAlison Gopnik on Child Development, Elderhood, Caregiving, and A.I.Complexity Ep. 99Simon DeDeo on Good Explanations & Diseases of EpistemologyComplexity Ep. 72David Wolpert on The No Free Lunch Theorems and Why They Undermine The Scientific MethodComplexity Ep. 45The Clock of the Long Now: Time and Responsibilityby Stewart BrandMichael LachmannStuart KauffmanAndreas WagnerCosma ShaliziNassim TalebDoes Free Will Violate The Laws of Physics?Big Think interviews Sean Carroll

Michael Garfield returns for his 2nd appearance on the Rainbow Brainskull podcast. Michael is an artist, musician, and the host of my favorite podcast, Future Fossils. He is one of the most intelligent people alive when it comes to discussing humanity, the future, and our place in time. On this episode, we dive deep into A.I. art and what it means to be a creator in this new era that is unfolding faster than ever. "Things fall apart. The center cannot hold." Learn more about Michael Garfield: http://rainbowbrainskull.com http://raminnazer.com Links mentioned in this episode: http://michaelgarfield.net/ https://www.instagram.com/michaelgarfield/ This podcast was recorded at Rainbow Brainskull Studios in Los Angeles, CA.

And now for something completely different!  Last October, The Santa Fe Institute held its third InterPlanetary Festival at SITE Santa Fe, celebrating the immensely long time horizon, deep scientific and philosophical questions, psychological challenges, and engineering problems involved in humankind's Great Work to extend its understanding and presence into outer space. For our third edition, we turned our attention to visionary projects living generations will likely not live to see completed — interstellar travel, off-world cities, radical new ways of understanding spacetime — as an invitation to engage in science as not merely interesting but deeply fun. For our first panel, we decided to inquire: What is time, really? How has science fiction changed  the way we track and measure, speak about, and live in time? And how do physics and complex systems science pose and answer these most fundamental questions?Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.In this week's episode, we share the Complex Conceptions of Time panel from InterPlanetary Festival 2022, moderated by SFI President David Krakauer and featuring an all-star trinity of panelists: science journalist James Gleick, sci-fi author and SFI Miller Scholar Ted Chiang, and physicist and SFI Professor David Wolpert. In this hour, we play with and dissect some favorite metaphors for time, unroll the history of time's mathematization, review time travel in science fiction, and examine the arguments between free will and determinism.Be sure to check out our extensive show notes with links to all our references at complexity.simplecast.com — as well as the extensive, interactive web-based “Voyager Golden Record Liner Notes” with links to not only all of the panels from IPFest 2022 but also copious additional resources, including contributor bios, peer-reviewed publications, science fiction and nonfiction science writing, and more…If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us — at santafe.edu/engage.If you'd like some HD virtual backgrounds of the SFI campus to use on video calls and a chance to win a signed copy of one of our books from the SFI Press, help us improve our science communication by completing a survey about our various scicomm channels. Thanks for your time!Lastly, we have a bevy of summer programs coming up! Join us June 19-23 for Collective Intelligence: Foundations + Radical Ideas, a first-ever event open to both academics and professionals, with sessions on adaptive matter, animal groups, brains, AI, teams, and more.  Space is limited!  The application deadline has been extended to March 1st.OR apply to the Graduate Workshop on Complexity in Social Science.OR the Complexity GAINS UK program for PhD students.(OR check our open listings for a staff or research job!)Join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Episode cover art by Michael Garfield with the help of Midjourney.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedIn(SOME) Mentioned & Related Links:David KrakauerMathematical languages shape our understanding of time in physicsby Nicolas GisinDoes Time Really Flow? New Clues Come From a Century-Old Approach to Mathby Natalie WolchoverThe Principle of Least ActionPath Integral FormulationClosed Timelike CurveThe Time Machineby H. G. WellsKip ThorneJames GleickGenius: The Life and Science of Richard FeynmanThe Physicist and The Philosopherby Jimena CanalesTed Chiang“Story of Your Life”ArrivalExhalationRussian Doll (TV series)“The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate”David WolpertComplexity 94 - David Wolpert & Farita Tasnim on The Thermodynamics of CommunicationComplexity 45 - David Wolpert on The No Free Lunch Theorems and Why They Undermine The Scientific MethodA Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court by Mark TwainIntuitionist Mathematics

There are maps, and there are territories, and humans frequently confuse the two. No matter how insistently this point has been made by cognitive neuroscience, epistemology, economics, and a score of other disciplines, one common human error is to act as if we know what we should measure, and that what we measure is what matters. But what we value doesn't even always have a metric. And even reasonable proxies can distort our understanding of and behavior in the world we want to navigate. Even carefully collected biometric data can occlude the other factors that determine health, or can oversimplify a nuanced conversation on the plural and contextual dimensions of health, transforming goals like functional fitness into something easier to quantify but far less useful. This philosophical conundrum magnifies when we consider governance at scales beyond those at which Homo sapiens evolved to grasp intuitively: What should we count to wisely operate a nation-state? How do we practice social science in a way that can inform new, smarter species of   political economy? And how can we escape the seductive but false clarity of systems that rain information but do not enhance collective wisdom?Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week on the show we talk to SFI External Professor Paul Smaldino at UC Merced and University of Utah Professor of Philosophy  C. Thi Nguyen. In this episode we talk about   value capture and legibility, viewpoint diversity, issues that plague big governments, and expert identification problems…and map the challenges “ahead of us” as SFI continues as the hub of a five-year international research collaboration into emergent political economies. (Find links to all previous episodes in this sub-series in the notes below.)Be sure to check out our extensive show notes with links to all our references at complexity.simplecast.com. If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us — at santafe.edu/engage.If you'd like some HD virtual backgrounds of the SFI campus to use on video calls and a chance to win a signed copy of one of our books from the SFI Press, help us improve our science communication by completing a survey about our various scicomm channels. Thanks for your time!Lastly, we have a bevy of summer programs coming up! Join us June 19-23 for Collective Intelligence: Foundations + Radical Ideas, a first-ever event open to both academics and professionals, with sessions on adaptive matter, animal groups, brains, AI, teams, and more.  Space is limited!  The application deadline has been extended to March 1st.OR apply to the Graduate Workshop on Complexity in Social Science.OR the Complex ity GAINS UK program for PhD students.(OR check our open listings for a staff or research job!)Join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInMentioned & Related Links:Transparency Is Surveillanceby C. Thi NguyenThe Seductions of Clarityby C. Thi NguyenThe Natural Selection of Bad Scienceby Paul Smaldino and Richard McElreathMaintaining transient diversity is a general principle for improving collective problem solvingby Paul Smaldino, Cody Moser, Alejandro Pérez Velilla, Mikkel WerlingThe Division of Cognitive Laborby Philip KitcherThe Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in The Natural Sciencesby Eugene WignerOn Crashing The Barrier of Meaning in A.I.by Melanie MitchellSeeing Like A Stateby James C. ScottJim RuttSlowed Canonical Progress in Large Fields of Scienceby Johan Chu and James EvansThe Coming Battle for the COVID-19 Narrativeby Wendy Carlin and Samuel BowlesPeter TurchinIn The Country of The Blindby Michael Flynn82 - David Krakauer on Emergent Political Economies and A Science of Possibility (EPE 01)83 - Eric Beinhocker & Diane Coyle on Rethinking Economics for A Sustainable & Prosperous World (EPE 02)84 - Ricardo Hausmann & J. Doyne Farmer on Evolving Technologies & Market Ecologies (EPE 03)91 - Steven Teles & Rajiv Sethi on Jailbreaking The Captured Economy (EPE 04)97 - Glen Weyl & Cris Moore on Plurality, Governance, and Decentralized Society (EPE 05)

“We want to be careful when we're in conflict on the internet.”– Tadaaki HozumiTadaaki Hozumi, member of Japan's oldest surviving lineage of royal Shinto priests, is back for the second part of our three-hour conversation on animism in the ancient-future technological construct-wilderness of the 21st Century! In this episode we discuss the ongoing battle between the spirits of the analog “realm of circles” and the digital “realm of squares,” the blurry boundary between humans and artificial intelligences, the deep commonalities between UFO lore and nature spirit myths, inspirited robots, the simulation hypothesis, and more. Just as with part one, this is not for the epistemically over-determined or the philosophically faint of heart! I don't cling to a point of view for this podcast and I suggest that you don't either. But if Tada and his collaborator Georgie Rein Lo are right, we may all be the player-characters in a dragon's endless dreaming. And honestly, that would explain some things…Strap in and turn on for a discussion we hope will help you navigate the very weird-to-modern-Western-minds few years to come!(Once again, pardon the delay — I've been eager to get the entirety of this profound and illuminating discussion out for over a month!  Never a dull moment in my home with two small kids.  Thanks for your patience and understanding over the last few years as Future Fossils has swayed but not fallen in the strong winds of my suddenly-a-householder life…)✨ Subscribe anywhere you go for podcasts!✨ Support The Show:Subscribe to the podcast, essays, music, and news on Substack or PatreonBuy my original paintings or commission new workBuy my music on Bandcamp (they take 15%)This conversation continues with lively and respectful interaction every single day in the members-only Future Fossils Facebook Group. Join us!I'm also ISO moderators interested in helping steward the Discord server so I can release it into the wilds as a fan-operated platform. Want to claim stake?✨ Tip Jars:@futurefossils on Venmo$manfredmacx on CashAppmichaelgarfield on PayPal✨ Mentioned & Related Media:Future Fossils 197 with Tadaaki Hozumi (Part 1)More info on the Hozumi clanlunmu.io (Tada's new project with Rein Lo)“Arts and AI: ‘You May Live To See Man-Made Horrors Beyond Your Comprehension'” by Jamie CurcioHigh Weirdness by Erik DavisLiminal Dreaming by Jennifer Dumpert“The Holy Spirit Board” (Christian Ouija Board)Improvising out of Algorithmic Isolation by Michael GarfieldKerri Chandler (reel-to-reel DJ)A Beginner's Guide to Constructing The Universe by Michael S. Schneider“The Story of Calculus” SFI Community Lecture by Steven StrogatzProgramming The Universe by Seth LloydThe Infoboros by Vidur MishraRich “M0b1us” Doyle“Aphanopoiesis” by Nora BatesonFuture Fossils 65 & 71 (on Blade Runner 2049)Future Fossils 14 (on Westworld HBO)Everything You Wanted To Know But Were Never Told by David IckePassport to Magonia by Jacques ValléeSupernatural by Graham Hancock“When The Orbit Curtain Falls” by Michael Garfield (song)Tom MontalkGraham Hancock on Underwater Japanese Temples & The Great SphinxFuture Fossils 124 with Norman KatzSense8 (Netflix)“How Stories Last” by Neil Gaiman at LongNow.org“The Evolution of Covert Signaling” by Paul Smaldino et al.“The 100 Oldest Companies” by Kevin Kelly at LongNow.org“Unlikely Historical Events” by Jason Kottkeaibo (robot dog by SONY)Future Fossils 57 - Conner Habib & Mitch Mignano on Occult BiologyTheme Music: “Olympus Mons” off the Martian Arts EP by Michael Garfield This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit michaelgarfield.substack.com/subscribe

Humans have an unusually long childhood — and an unusually long elderhood past the age of reproductive activity. Why do we spend so much time playing and exploring, caregiving and reflecting, learning and transmitting? What were the evolutionary circumstances that led to our unique life history among the primates? What use is the undisciplined child brain with its tendencies to drift, scatter, and explore in a world that adults understand in such very different terms? And what can we transpose from the study of human cognition as a developmental, stagewise process to the refinement and application of machine learning technologies?Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week we talk to SFI External Professor Alison Gopnik, Professor of Psychology and Affiliate Professor of Philosophy at the University of California Berkeley, author of numerous books on psych, cognitive science, childhood development. She writes a column at The Wall Street Journal, alternating with Robert Sapolsky. Slate said that Gopnik is “where to go if you want to get into the head of a baby.” In our conversation we discuss the tension between exploration and exploitation, the curious evolutionary origins of human cognition, the value of old age, and she provides a sober counterpoint about life in the age of large language machine learning models.Be sure to check out our extensive show notes with links to all our references at complexity.simplecast.com. If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us at santafe.edu/engage.Lastly, we have a bevy of summer programs coming up! Join us June 19-23 for Collective Intelligence: Foundations + Radical Ideas, a first-ever event open to both academics and professionals, with sessions on adaptive matter, animal groups, brains, AI, teams, and more.  Space is limited! Apps close February 1st.OR Apply to participate in the Complex Systems Summer School.OR the Graduate Workshop on Complexity in Social Science.OR the Undergraduate Complexity Research program, for which apps close tonight!OR the free online Foundations and Applications in Humanities Analytics course with Complexity Explorer, which starts next week.Thank you for listening!Join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInMentioned & Related Links:Alison Gopnik at WikipediaAlison Gopnik's Google Scholar pageExplanation as Orgasmby Alison GopnikTwitter thread for Gopnik's latest SFI Seminar on machine learning and child developmentChanges in cognitive flexibility and hypothesis search across human life history from childhood to adolescence to adulthoodby Gopnik et al.Pretense, Counterfactuals, and Bayesian Causal Models: Why What Is Not Real Really Mattersby Deena Weisberg & Alison GopnikChildhood as a solution to explore–exploit tensionsby Alison GopnikThe Origins of Common Sense in Humans and Machinesby Kevin A Smith, Eliza Kosoy, Alison Gopnik, Deepak Pathak, Alan Fern, Joshua B Tenenbaum, & Tomer UllmanWhat Does “Mind-Wandering” Mean to the Folk? An Empirical Investigationby Zachary C. Irving, Aaron Glasser, Alison Gopnik, Verity Pinter, Chandra SripadaModels of Human Scientific Discoveryby Robert Goldstone, Alison Gopnik, Paul Thagard, Tomer UllmanLove Lets Us Learn: Psychological Science Makes the Case for Policies That Help Childrenby Alison Gopnik at APSOur Favorite New Things Are the Old Onesby Alison Gopnik at The Wall Street JournalAn exchange of letters on the role of noise in collective intelligenceby Daniel Kahneman, David Krakauer, Olivier Sibony, Cass Sunstein, & David Wolpert#DEVOBIAS2018 on SFI TwitterCoarse-graining as a downward causation mechanismby Jessica FlackComplexity 90: Caleb Scharf on The Ascent of Information: Life in The Human DataomeComplexity 15: R. Maria del-Rio Chanona on Modeling Labor Markets & Tech UnemploymentLearning through the grapevine and the impact of the breadth and depth of social networksby Matthew Jackson, Suraj Malladi, & David McAdamsThe coming battle for the COVID-19 narrativeby Wendy Carlin & Sam BowlesComplexity 83: Eric Beinhocker & Diane Coyle on Rethinking Economics for A Sustainable & Prosperous WorldComplexity 97: Glen Weyl & Cris Moore on Plurality, Governance, and Decentralized SocietyDerek Thompson at The Atlantic on the forces slowing innovation at scale (citing Chu & Evans)

What does it mean to think? What are the traits of thinking systems that we could use to identify them? Different environmental variables call for different strategies in individual and collective cognition — what defines the threshold at which so-called “solid” brains transition into “liquids”? And how might we apply these and related lessons from ecology and evolution to help steward a diverse and thriving future with technology, and keep the biosphere afloat?Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week on the show we talk to SFI External Professor Ricard Solé of the Universitat Pompeu Fabra (Website, Twitter, Google Scholar) about liquid and solid brains, the scaling of cognition, criticality, contagions, and terraforming our own planet with synthetic bio.Be sure to check out our extensive show notes with links to all our references at complexity.simplecast.com. If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us, including our upcoming program for Undergraduate Complexity Research, our new SFI Press book Ex Machina by John H. Miller, and an open postdoctoral fellowship in Belief Dynamics — at santafe.edu/engage.Lastly, join us June 19-23 for Collective Intelligence: Foundations + Radical Ideas, a first-ever event open to both academics and professionals, with sessions on adaptive matter, animal groups, brains, AI, teams, and more.  Space is limited! Apps close February 1st. Learn more on our website.Thank you for listening!Join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInReferenced & Related WorksLiquid and Solid Brains: Mapping the Cognition SpaceSFI Seminar by Ricard SoléJohn Hopfield (re: biology as computation)Synthetic transitions: towards a new synthesisby Ricard SoléComplexity 93 - Kate Adamala on Synthetic Biology, Origins of Life, and BioethicsThe Multiple Paths to Multiple Lifeby Chris Kempes and David KrakauerSimon Conway Morris (re: macroevolutionary trends)Scale and information-processing thresholds in Holocene social evolutionby Jaewon Shin et al.Smarter Parts Make Collective Systems Too Stubbornby Jordana Cepelewicz at Quanta MagazineComplexity 90 - Caleb Scharf on The Ascent of Information: Life in The Human DataomeWill Ratcliff (re: yeasts and emergent multi-cellularity)Complexity 29 - On Coronavirus, Crisis, and Creative Opportunity with David Krakauer (Transmission Series Ep. 3)Synthetic criticality in cellular brainsby Ricard Solé et al.Tom Ray (re: artificial life)Complexity and fragility in ecological networksby Ricard Solé and José MontoyaEcological Networks and Their Fragilityby José Montoya, Stuart Pimm, and Ricard SoléThe small world of human languageby Ramon Ferrer i Cancho and Ricard SoléMacroscopic patterns of interacting contagions are indistinguishable from social reinforcementby Laurent Hébert-Dufresne, Sam Scarpino, and Jean-Gabriel YoungComplexity 56 - J. Doyne Farmer on The Complexity Economics RevolutionComplexity 66 - Katherine Collins on Better Investing Through BiomimicryChris Langton (re: criticality)Jim Crutchfield (re: the edge of chaos)Per Bak (re: self-organized criticality)Complexity 10 - Melanie Moses on Metabolic Scaling in Biology & ComputationComplexity 3 - Sabine Hauert on Swarming Across ScalesNiles Eldredge (re: punctuated equilibria)Terraforming the biosphere: can bioengineering save us?SFI Seminar by Ricard SoléEcological complexity and the biosphere: the next 30 yearsby Ricard Solé and Simon LevinEcological firewalls for synthetic biologyby Blai Vidiella and Ricard SoléRachel Armstrong (re: synthetic biology for CO2 fixing in concrete)Stewardship of global collective behaviorby Joseph Bak-Coleman et al.Complexity 64 - Reconstructing Ancient Superhighways with Stefani Crabtree and Devin WhiteComplexity 5 - Jennifer Dunne on Food Webs & ArchaeoEcology

In his foundational 1972 paper “More Is Different,” physicist Phil Anderson made the case that reducing the objects of scientific study to their smallest components does not allow researchers to predict the behaviors of those systems upon reconstruction. Another way of putting this is that different disciplines reveal different truths at different scales. Contrary to long-held convictions that there would one day be one great unifying theory to explain it all, fundamental research in this century looks more like a bouquet of complementary approaches. This pluralistic thinking hearkens back to the work of 19th century psychologist William James and looks forward into the growing popularity of evidence-based approaches that cultivate diversity in team-building, governance, and ecological systems. Context-dependent theory and practice calls for choirs of voices…so how do we encourage this? New systems must emerge to handle the complexity of digital society…what might they look like?Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week on the show we dip back into our sub-series on SFI's Emergent Political Economies research theme with a trialogue featuring Microsoft Research Lead Glen Weyl (founder of RadicalXChange and founder-chair of The Plurality Institute), and SFI Resident Professor Cristopher Moore (author of over 150 papers at the intersection of physics and computer science). In our conversation we discuss the case for a radically pluralistic approach, explore the links between plurality and quantum mechanics, and outline potential technological solutions to the “sense-making” problems of the 21st century.Be sure to check out our extensive show notes with links to all our references at complexity.simplecast.com. If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us, including our upcoming program for Undergraduate Complexity Research, our new SFI Press book Ex Machina by John H. Miller, and an open postdoctoral fellowship in Belief Dynamics — at santafe.edu/engage.Thank you for listening!Join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInReferenced & Related WorksWhy I Am A Pluralistby Glen WeylReflecting on A Possible Quadratic Wormhole between Quantum Mechanics and Pluralityby Michael Freedman, Michal Fabinger, Glen WeylDecentralized Society: Finding Web3's Soulby Glen Weyl, Puja Ohlhaver, Vitalik ButerinAI is an Ideology, Not a Technologyby Glen Weyl & Jaron LanierHow Civic Technology Can Help Stop a Pandemicby Jaron Lanier & Glen WeylA Flexible Design for Funding Public Goodsby Vitalik Buterin, Zöe Hitzig, Glen WeylEquality of Power and Fair Public Decision-makingby Nicole Immorlica, Benjamin Plautt, Glen WeylScale and information-processing thresholds in Holocene social evolutionby Jaeweon Shin, Michael Holton Price, David Wolpert, Hajime Shimao, Brendan Tracey & Timothy Kohler Toward a Connected Societyby Danielle AllenThe role of directionality, heterogeneity and correlations in epidemic risk and spreadby Antoine Allard, Cris Moore, Samuel Scarpino, Benjamin Althouse, and Laurent Hébert-DufresneThe Generals' Scuttlebutt: Byzantine-Resilient Gossip Protocolsby Sandro Coretti, Aggelos Kiayias, Cristopher Moore, Alexander RussellEffective Resistance for Pandemics: Mobility Network Sparsification for High-Fidelity Epidemic Simulationby Alexander Mercier, Samuel Scarpino, and Cris MooreHow Accurate are Rebuttable Presumptions of Pretrial Dangerousness? A Natural Experiment from New Mexicoby Cris Moore, Elise Ferguson, Paul GuerinThe Uncertainty Principle: In an age of profound disagreements, mathematics shows us how to pursue truth togetherby Cris Moore & John KaagOn Becoming Aware: A pragmatics of experiencingby Nathalie Depraz, Francisco Varela, and Pierre VermerschThe Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform The Worldby David Deutsch[Twitter thread on chess]by Vitalik ButerinLetter from Birmingham Jailby Martin Luther King, Jr.The End of History and The Last Manby Francis FukuyamaEnabling the Individual: Simmel, Dewey and “The Need for a Philosophy of Education”by H. KoenigEncyclical Letter Fratelli Tutti of The Holy Father Francis on Fraternity and Social Friendshipby Pope FrancisWhat can we know about that which we cannot even imagine?by David WolpertJ.C.R. Licklider (1, 2)Allison Duettman (re: existential hope)Evan Miyazono (re: Protocol Labs research)Intangible Capital (“an open access scientific journal that publishes theoretical or empirical peer-reviewed articles, which contribute to advance the understanding of phenomena related with all aspects of management and organizational behavior, approached from the perspectives of intellectual capital, strategic management, human resource management, applied psychology, education, IT, supply chain management, accounting…”)Polis (“a real-time system for gathering, analyzing and understanding what large groups of people think in their own words, enabled by advanced statistics and machine learning”)Related Complexity Podcast Episodes7 - Rajiv Sethi on Stereotypes, Crime, and The Pursuit of Justice51 - Cris Moore on Algorithmic Justice & The Physics of Inference55 - James Evans on Social Computing and Diversity by Design68 - W. Brian Arthur on Economics in Nouns and Verbs (Part 1)69 - W. Brian Arthur (Part 2) on "Prim Dreams of Order vs. Messy Vitality" in Economics, Math, and Physics82 - David Krakauer on Emergent Political Economies and A Science of Possibility (EPE 01)83 - Eric Beinhocker & Diane Coyle on Rethinking Economics for A Sustainable & Prosperous World (EPE 02)84 - Ricardo Hausmann & J. Doyne Farmer on Evolving Technologies & Market Ecologies (EPE 03)91 - Steven Teles & Rajiv Sethi on Jailbreaking The Captured Economy (EPE 04)

The brain is arguably one of the most complex objects known to science. How best to understand it? That is a trick question: brains are organized at many levels and attempts to grasp them all through one approach — be it micro, macro, anatomical, behavioral — are destined to leave out crucial insights. What more, thinking “vertically” across scales, one might miss important angles from another discipline along the “horizontal” axis. For inquiries too big to sit within one field of knowledge, maybe it is time we resurrected the salon: a mode of scientific exploration that levels hierarchies of expertise and optimizes for more complementary and high-dimensional, egalitarian, communal discourse. As with the Jainist philosophic principle anekantavada — how many blind people does it take to grok an elephant? — neuroscience is perhaps best practiced as innately and intensely multiperspectival…Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week is part one of a two-part conversation with SFI External Professor John Krakauer, Professor of Neurology and Director of the Center for the Study of Motor Learning and Brain Repair at Johns Hopkins . In this episode, we talk about the history of different ways of studying the brain — in animals and humans — and how subjects as complex as brains invite a different way of seeing, one that synthesizes many different ways of seeing…Thanks for your patience with the recent delays in publication — with InterPlanetary Festival and our Annual Symposium behind us, Complexity will now return to regular biweekly scheduling.Be sure to check out our extensive show notes with links to all our references at complexity.simplecast.com, and stay tuned for part two — in which we talk about how learning is inherently a future-focused exercise, and what that means for education. If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us, including an open postdoctoral fellowship in Belief Dynamics — at santafe.edu/engage.Thank you for listening!Join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInReferenced in this episode:Neuroscience Needs Behavior: Correcting a Reductionist BiasJohn Krakauer, Asif Ghazanfar, Alex Gomez-Marin, Malcolm MacIver, David PoeppelTwo Views of the Cognitive BrainDavid Barack & John KrakauerOn Beyond Living: Rhetorical Transformations of the Life SciencesRichard DoyleSimon DeDeo on Good Explanations & Diseases of EpistemologyComplexity Podcast Episode 72Former SFI Fellow David Kinney, epistemologist (re: disciplines as levels of explanatory granularity)Coarse-graining as a downward causation mechanismJessica FlackIntegral Ecology: Uniting Multiple Perspectives on the Natural WorldSean Esbjörn-Hargens & Michael ZimmermanCarl Cranor, moral philosopher (re: causation)The Learning Salon: Toward a new participatory scienceIda Momennejad, John Krakauer, Claire Sun, Eva Yezerets, Kanaka Rajan, Joshua Vogelstein, Brad WybleBrain Inspired PodcastPaul MiddlebrookseLife JournalbiorXivW. Brian Arthur on Economics in Nouns and Verbs (Part 1)Complexity Podcast Episode 68W. Brian Arthur (Part 2) on "Prim Dreams of Order vs. Messy Vitality" in Economics, Math, and PhysicsComplexity Podcast Episode 69Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save The WorldTyson Yunkaporta

Communication is a physical process. It's common sense that sending and receiving intelligible messages takes work…but how much work? The question of the relationship between energy, information, and matter is one of the deepest known to science. There appear to be limits to the rate at which communication between two systems can happen…but the search for a fundamental relationship between speed, error, and energy (among other things) promises insights far deeper than merely whether we can keep making faster internet devices. Strap in (and consider slowing down) for a broad and deep discussion on the bounds within which our entire universe must play…Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I'm your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we'll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week we speak with SFI Professor David Wolpert and MIT Physics PhD student Farita Tasnim, who have worked together over the last year on pioneering research into the nonlinear dynamics of communication channels. In this episode, we explore the history and ongoing evolution of information theory and coding theory, what the field of stochastic thermodynamics has to do with limits to human knowledge, and the role of noise in collective intelligence.Be sure to check out our extensive show notes with links to all our references at complexity.simplecast.com. If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us, including a handful of open postdoctoral fellowships — at santafe.edu/engage.Lastly, this weekend — October 22nd & 23rd — is the return of our InterPlanetary Festival! Join our YouTube livestream for two full days of panel discussions, keynotes, and bleeding edge multimedia performances focusing   space exploration through the lens of complex systems science. The fun begins at 11 A.M. Mountain Time on Saturday and ends 6 P.M. Mountain Time on Sunday. Everything will be recorded and archived at the stream link in case you can't tune in for the live event. Learn more at interplanetaryfest.org…Thank you for listening!Join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInReferenced in this episode:Nonlinear thermodynamics of communication channelsby Farita Tasnim and David Wolpert (forthcoming at arXiv.org)Heterogeneity and Efficiency in the Brainby Vijay BalasubramanianNoisy Deductive Reasoning: How Humans Construct Math, and How Math Constructs Universesby David Wolpert & David KinneyStochastic Mathematical Systemsby David Wolpert & David KinneyTwenty-five years of nanoscale thermodynamicsby Chase P. Broedersz & Pierre RoncerayTen Questions about The Hard Limits of Human Intelligenceby David WolpertWhat can we know about that which we cannot even imagine?by David WolpertCommunication consumes 35 times more energy than computation in the human cortex, but both costs are needed to predict synapse numberby William Levy & Victoria CalvertAn exchange of letters on the role of noise in collective intelligenceby Daniel Kahneman, David Krakauer, Olivier Sibony, Cass Sunstein, David WolpertWhen Slower Is Fasterby Carlos Gershenson & Dirk HelbingAdditional Resources:The stochastic thermodynamics of computationby David WolpertElements of Information Theory, Second Edition (textbook)by Thomas Cover & Joy ThomasComputational Complexity: A Modern Approach (textbook)by Sanjeev Arora & Boaz BarakAn Introduction to Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications (textbook)by Ming Li & Paul Vitányi

This week I go solo and get reflective on age, noise, loss, mystery, stars and angels, dreams and seasons, modern science and the retrieval of magic...Read the ✨ EXTENSIVE ✨ show notes, and join the Future Fossils community, at Patreon. cataract (n.) early 15c., "a waterfall, floodgate, furious rush of water," from Latin cataracta "waterfall," from Greek katarhaktes "waterfall, broken water; a kind of portcullis," noun use of an adjective compound meaning "swooping, down-rushing," from kata "down" (see cata-). The second element is traced either to arhattein "to strike hard" (in which case the compound is kat-arrhattein), or to rhattein "to dash, break." Its alternative sense in Latin of "portcullis" probably passed through French and gave English the meaning "eye disease characterized by opacity of the lens" (early 15c.), on the notion of "obstruction" (to eyesight). (from etymology.com)Episode Art & Music:Aldebaran by Michael Garfield (2020) (prints available)Pavo: Music for Mystery by Michael Garfield (2017)Other Ways To Support:• linktr.ee/michaelgarfield will take you to a trove of art and music• Venmo: @futurefossils• PayPal.me/michaelgarfield• ETH: FutureFossils.eth• BTC: 1At2LQbkQmgDugkchkP6QkDJCvJ5rv3Jm Get bonus content on PatreonSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/futurefossils. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, I catch up with my good friend, Michael Garfield. Michael is the host of the Future Fossils podcast and the Complexity podcast. In his 4th appearance on Here We Are, we discuss topics like fatherhood, lifestyle changes, and the ever-changing world we live in.

Artist, podcaster, and novelty-wielder, Michael Garfield, returns to the mind meld to muse about AI consciousness, the nature of the soul, sentient ideas, hyper objects, and more.  You can support him via his substack and patreon Protect Your Self Online with our sponsor, Nord VPN and get 69% off (seriously) at https://www.nordvpn.com/thirdeye Support Third Eye Drops: Crowd-sponsor us, join the community, and get rewards on Patreon Subscribe and check out our new video pods on Youtube Review and sub on Apple Podcasts Follow the show on Spotify Visit Thirdeyedrops.com