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In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I speak with Tim Loney about his transition from airline industry professional to IT services entrepreneur. He shares his path from working at Continental Airlines through major mergers to establishing Solutions Information Systems, explaining how his experience with severance packages motivated his shift into entrepreneurship. We discuss the importance of business continuity planning, particularly for companies in hurricane-prone areas. Tim tells me about a Houston client whose facilities experienced severe flooding, highlighting how proper data recovery systems made a crucial difference in their ability to resume operations. Managing sensitive data is a key topic in our conversation, as Tim's company works with high-net-worth families, family office sectors, as well as companies in a variety of industries. He explains how word-of-mouth referrals have helped build trust with these clients who require careful handling of confidential information. The conversation turns to Tim's approach to business acquisition, where he focuses on purchasing IT firms from retiring owners. He describes his method of maintaining and growing these businesses post-purchase while sharing insights about how remote management tools have transformed IT services over the past 35 years.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed Tim's career evolution from working in the airline industry with Continental Airlines and American Express to establishing his own IT services firm, Solutions Information Systems, in Houston, Texas. Tim shared insights on how his managed IT services company has established a national presence by utilizing robust remote management tools and enterprise-class processes. We explored the importance of business continuity and rapid data recovery, highlighted by a story of a Houston-based company that faced severe flooding and required effective disaster recovery solutions. Tim's firm specializes in managing sensitive data for high-income families in construction and family office sectors, emphasizing the importance of trust and credibility built through word-of-mouth referrals. We discussed Tim's strategy for acquiring small businesses from retiring owners, focusing on enhancing the value of these businesses post-acquisition to ensure continued growth. Tim reflected on his entrepreneurial journey from modest beginnings, emphasizing the significance of diversifying income sources and the evolving importance of data protection in the digital age. The episode concluded with an exploration of the evolution of office communication over the last 35 years, showcasing the technological advancements that have redefined the IT industry.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Tim Loney (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sis-tloney/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Solutions Informations Systems GUEST Tim LoneyAbout Tim TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, good afternoon, Tim. Welcome to the podcast. Tim: Hi, Dave, good to see you. Dave: So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Tim: I'm in Houston, Texas, just north of Houston, in the Tomball area. Dave: Okay. Tim: Up in our corporate headquarters for the company. Dave: Okay, and now are you a native Houstonian. Tim: I am not. I'm not a native Houstonian. I should be probably classified as a native Houstonian because I've been here for about 35 years or more. Dave: Okay. Tim: But my background is I migrated from Canada the day before my 21st birthday. Dave: Oh, you did. Tim: Yeah, I became a permanent resident here in the United States. And what caused you to want to do that? The economy was pretty bad in Canada at that time and I was working for a commercial airline that had gone through a severance package and they released me with my severance package and I said you know, maybe I should try another country, not just a job, but maybe another country. Dave: Okay, so when you came to Houston then did you stay in the airline? Tim: business I did. I worked for one of the large international airlines called Continental Airlines at the time, which has since been acquired by United Airlines. Dave: You know, to this day I can still tell a legacy Continental flight crew from a legacy United flight crew. Very different cultures, very different cultures, or, as I say, the Continental folks are nice and the United folks are not so nice. Tim: Correct, yeah, I was there during the heavy competition years between Continental Airlines and United. I was actually there in the process with Continental Airlines during a very large merger and acquisition of multiple carriers. We acquired Frontier, people Express and New York Air and put them all under the umbrella of Continental Airlines. So I was there during those years. Dave: Okay, so were you there in the late 90s. So were you there in the late 90s. Tim: I was there from 1985 to 1990. Dave: Okay, yeah, I was only asking because I'd worked at an executive search firm in the late 90s and we worked with Continental during their like, go forward initiative or move forward initiative. Tim: Yep the go forward plan with Gordon Blithoon. He was Yep. Dave: Yep, that was it. So then you left the airline business. What did you decide to go do then? Tim: So I left the airline business and I went to work for one of the largest credit card companies in the world called American Express. Dave: Okay, I think I've heard of them. Tim: Yep and because I had a lot of automation knowledge of how the airlines work. From an automation standpoint, American Express was interested in me and understanding the automation behind the airlines and travel agency systems and they brought me in to be a systems person for the airlines to help them in kind of standardizing a lot of procedures within American Express. Dave: Okay, well, that sounds like a fun opportunity. Tim: Yeah, very rewarding, very educational. I learned so much during my term at American Express. Dave: Okay, but you decided that at some point you wanted to unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Tim: unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Yeah, you know now that I look back at it. You know I was. I grew up in a family where you were encouraged to go work for a large organization and a big fortune 100 firm, and through your entire life, and leave with a gold Rolex watch and have a great retirement plan. Dave: Yeah. Tim: But as I followed that path, I found myself continuing to get severance packages over and in my experience with the Fortune 100s I received three or four severance packages and those packages kind of educated me on that. It was maybe not the right gig for me and, you know, I was smart enough to be able to exit out of the Fortune 100s and do something on my own, and that's when I decided to start my organization. Dave: Okay, and what's your company called? Tim: So my company is Solutions Information Systems Solutions IS to abbreviate it and we are a managed service provider of IT services across the United States, managing about 175 customers across the US oh wow. Dave: That's interesting. I would have thought you'd have your clients would all be in the Houston area. I guess this newfangled internet thing lets you serve clients remotely. Is that, I guess, how it works? Tim: Yeah, yeah, and we can talk a little bit about what makes us so successful, but the ability to manage and monitor and remediate issues remotely has come a long ways over the years that I've been in IT. Now it's pretty much if you can't do that, why are you in this industry, right? So yeah, and you know it's a lot of like the entire work from home program that the whole world has kind of moved to. We have that ability to do exactly all of that stuff, not only from our corporate headquarters, but remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do that as well. So it requires a massive tool set, and I'll refer probably to our tool set a lot, because that's what makes us successful, right Is the tool set that I've been able to put together and build a toolbox full of tools to be able to manage, secure, maintain these infrastructures that we're responsible for. Dave: Well. Tim: I thought IT service firms were. Dave: I thought that was a commodity service. I thought they're all the same. Tim: Oh no, there's quite a bit of difference in how these managed service providers operate and I'll tell you, I would consider us probably in the top 100 nationally and probably the top three in our region of service providers, and the reason I kind of give us that grade and that's a grade that I've given us is that we've been at this for 25 years. I started this practice 25 years ago. I started this practice 25 years ago and over those 25 years I not only brought in enterprise class processes and procedures from my 10 years at American Express, but I've improved upon those processes and procedures over those 25 years. Dave: And we continue to improve on those processes. Okay. Well, what? Yeah, I'm guessing that you're. The clients tend to stay with you for a pretty long time. Is that like until they sell or go out of business or some significant event occurs? Absolutely. Tim: Yeah, and that and that's the type of client that we want to have in our portfolio, right? This is not a consumable product that you go and buy once and go away this is a partnership with our customers. Dave: It really is. Tim: You have to think about the IT infrastructure of any business out there. It's number one, a foundational piece of the business, and it is an instrumental piece in continuing to do business right. A lot of conversations I have are around data protection and security, and that's a lot of what we do right Is how do we protect the data that the customer has and how do we make sure that it remains secure and that nobody compromises that data or extracts that data or modifies that data that's on their infrastructure. Dave: Okay, and I'm guessing you're not trying to be the low-cost provider. Tim: We are not the low-cost provider. I wouldn't say we're the most expensive organization out there, but we are in the higher side, and the reason that we're the higher side is we bring a huge value to an organization. There is a lot of components within the IT support model that our lower competitors don't provide or don't understand, and those are the weaknesses within an organization that will cost them considerable damage to an organization if they get exposed right. Dave: Yeah. Tim: And then kind of go through those if you want to cover some of that stuff. Like let's just give an example of a business continuity plan right. If a company doesn't have a business continuity plan, that should be something that they should have in place, and they should have worked with their IT service provider or internal IT team to make sure that they've got a business continuity plan. If they don't, when an event happens, it's a total dumpster fire right, because they don't know what to do and they're very disorganized and it takes them an extremely long time to be able to recover, if they recover at all. So that's one example. Another example is compliance. There's a lot of compliance that's out there and that compliance is in place for a reason. Compliance is in there because somehow something got compromised and this is a compliance requirement that you now have to be in compliance with. It may be an access control compliance thing. It might be a reporting compliance to a legal agency. Dave: So talk to me about the first thing you refer to as the disaster recovery plan or the disaster recovery and business continuity. Okay, so my listeners love stories, so could you give me an example, like of one of your clients you know anonymously, that maybe went through a situation or maybe a company who was not a client but after they had an issue they hired. You guys give us a sense of like the elements of a really good you know continuity plan. Tim: Sure. So I'll give you an example. I had a neighbor that was in my neighborhood that you know. We would see each other at the neighborhood community pool. Our kids would play together, you know weren't real close to them. But you know you get into the conversation of having hey, what do you do by? The way, and you know, I told him I ran a managed service provider, an IT service firm, and we manage customer networks and we keep them secure. Dave: And he goes oh, okay, okay, Well, we got a guy. Tim: We got a guy he's good, he's been with me for five years. At that point, and you know, and wow, that's great. Well, if we need anything we'll call you, right, the conversation went away and that was about 15 years later. So the guy had been working for him for 20 years managing his stuff, managing his infrastructure, managing his backups, making sure again going back to data protection and security making sure that everything was safe and secure and we could recover it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up, not him, but his wife calls me up, and his wife, you know, worked in the business for a period of time but it exited out. She called me up. She said by the way, I still have your cell phone number. I'm wondering if you're still doing IT, was their question. Dave: Okay. Tim: And I returned back and I said absolutely, I'm still doing IT. What's going on? She goes well. He was afraid to call you because he's embarrassed and we were in a very bad situation. This is a second generation builder supply company, probably doing annual revenue about $10 to $15 million in annual revenue. Dave: I said OK, what's going on? Tim: And she goes. Well, we've been ransomed and our data has been held for ransom and we don't know what to do. And our IT guy doesn't know what to do and he is really stressed out. And so the next step was is like well, I can jump in and I can help you. Let me know if you need my assistance. But these type of scenarios we've worked with before and we know how to be able to either negotiate with the criminals and negotiate the ransom to a point where you can actually pay it. If that's your only option, that's your worst option. But if we can recover your data from some sort of backup, we can go through the recovery process. Kind of summarize it we spent that particular client was not a client at the time and so they didn't have any of our backup or recovery procedures in place. They didn't have any kind of policy in place. They didn't have retention policies, they didn't have off-site backups. They had a lot of things. They didn't have offsite backups. They had a lot of things that were missing in that internal IT person's procedure. So what happened was is we came in and we immediately got on site and determined that they were using tape backup, and this is like way tape backup had expired like a long time ago. They had tape backup, they had ancient equipment, it was really. They obviously had put no money investment into their IT. Okay, the recovery for that client was about a week and a half and we were able to recover about 90% of their data. So it comes down to what we call RTO or recovery time objective. The recovery time objective is how long will it take us to recover your network based on our backup and recovery procedures? That particular customer we were able to get back up. Like I said, it was an extended period of time that they were out and they weren't able to do stuff. They were writing sales orders on paper and going back to a paper process. So they could continue their business, but we did get them back up and operational. We got them recovered and they became a customer and today we run very successful trials of the recovery system, as well as continue to make sure that their data is protected and secure. Dave: Did they end up paying the ransom they? Did not Because you got them close enough to 100%. Tim: We got them close enough where they had physical paper backup of the information that they were able to put back into the system. Dave: Okay, now help me understand the other end of that spectrum with somebody who was a current client that something like that happened to, and what was the difference as far as how long it took before you had them up and running? Tim: Well, you know, our current clients knock on wood have not experienced that. Dave: Because they've got a tighter IT infrastructure. Tim: Right, we've got the security and controls and again going back to the tool set to detect and have early detection of these type of events before they happen. So we have the security operations center that is constantly monitoring the security of the networks and the access to the networks and they look for anything that's kind of out of order. Dave: When something's out of order. Tim: then we identify it. We either isolate that system or we investigate it further and see is this a normal procedure that should be going or not? A normal procedure and a lot of this stuff is becoming part of AI now. Part of the AI capabilities is to be able to identify those things very early and stop them before they get any further into the network. So prevention is obviously a whole lot better than remediation. Right and that's what companies hire us to do is to prevent anything like that, a catastrophic event, from happening. Dave: Okay. Well, what about something that's more like a hurricane hits and wipes out their building? I assume you've had some kind of like natural disaster kind of thing where you've had to enact a continuity plan. Tim: Yep, yep, yep, absolutely so. Hurricanes here in the Gulf Coast of Texas, with the Gulf Coast of Texas being in a hurricane zone, we've had customers that their facilities have gone underwater. So one particular customer was on the south side of Houston and their facility went about five feet underwater. They, interestingly enough, had the server on a brick, thinking it was high enough. Well, it wasn't quite high enough, it was a foot off the ground, but it needed to be five feet off the ground. So that server went underwater and it was on when it went underwater. So it shorted out a lot of the components on the server, in which case, you know, they were like we don't know what to do In that scenario. We actually brought the hardware to our facility and we found out what component had failed and we replaced that component on the system and we were able to recover that system oh, wow, okay yeah, that's what we always want to do, is we want to try to use local recovery as much as possible just because of bandwidth or um, no, because of the time it takes to get the data transferred over from a replication process right. Gotcha If you're dealing with terabytes of data. You have to transfer that terabytes of data from either our data center facility or a cloud infrastructure, and that can be time consuming. That can be hours, if not days, depending upon the data. Okay, so some great stories. I mean, obviously we've had events happen. It's not uncommon for events to happen, but how we handle those events and how quickly we can recover from them is critical to a business to continue business for our customers and they can get back to business and be doing what they're doing selling things, manufacturing things, distributing things, whatever it is Okay. Dave: And are there any particular industries that you have, like you know, kind of particular expertise in where you know you would say that people in this industry might look out to you for yeah? Tim: There is. We're a very horizontal organization so we do have multiple industries that we play in. So we do play in the construction industry A lot of construction firms are in our portfolio, but also kind of an area where we've proven to have not only expertise in what we do but also the trust factor is in family offices. Dave: Oh, really Okay. Tim: Yeah, either high income families or ultra high income families. Obviously the privacy of those organizations, the privacy of the families, absolutely critical, and then the data that they're working with has high confidentiality. So, you know again, if that information was to leak out of the network or leak out of the system, then it would be a serious issue. So we've dealt with some of the highest wealth families in the world, oh interesting. Yep Obviously can't name them, but some brands that you would know, some organizations that you would know. It's amazing when I look at our portfolio, the amount of business like when I'm driving around town and I see companies around town and I'm like been in that building, worked in that customer, handled that particular customer, things like that. So yeah, you know, it's our high income or ultra high income. Families are probably a good percentage of our business. Okay, because they have multiple entities that we can support, consistent across all of those entities. So it's very standardized the way we do our business and very proceduralized so it makes it easy for them to understand. They get a quarterly report that provides them with the details and data that they know what we did for them previously and then we also forecast with a forecasting budget in the October November timeframe to provide them with a forecast so they can budget for their future IT needs and know what they're going to need replaced in the future. Dave: Okay, so was this just a case? You happened to stumble across, you know one of these family offices and then you know they run in the same circles and we're just got around that you guys were the go-to folks. Tim: I will say it has helped right In the. You know, in that particular market referrals are a huge thing. Our first family office we did stumble across. We didn't know we were working with an entity, one of their businesses, and then we, you know, they introduced us to another piece of their business and then they introduced us to the family office. You know we're having troubles with, you know, my buddy, my other firm over here, and we'd like you to kind of help in that area. So that expanded out quite a bit. And you know, again, there couldn't be. Our organization has to be the most trusted organization as a vendor that any company is going to hire, right? Sure, because you have to think about the access to the data that we have. We have access to absolutely everything. We're the administrator of your network, right? We have access to your email account. We have access to your email account. We have access to your employees' email accounts. We have access to your data, your financial data, your payroll data, your bonus data, all of the data that's out there on the network we have full access to. So you have to trust our team to the utmost in order to keep that information private, and I always approach a customer with. We're here responsible to secure and maintain that data. We're not here to look at what that data is. We don't know what that data is. Okay. Dave: Well, that's interesting here. I thought I figured you picked up that first client when you were on your mega yacht at the Cannes Film Festival. It didn't work that way. Tim: Huh, no it didn't work that way. No, it didn't work that way. I don't have a mega yacht and I wasn't at the festival, so okay, okay, yeah, not that I don't enjoy that stuff. I do have a house over at tpc, sawgrass and the players club and I do enjoy the country club life. You know I probably have the least expensive house in the neighborhood but I do enjoy the life. Dave: So nice, nice, I like it. So what do your clients tell you that makes your firm unique, like folks that have moved from another firm to yours, then they've been with you a while and I imagine you'll have a conversation hey, how's it going from your end? Are we meeting your expectations? I imagine you have conversations like that. What are they? What are? Are there any common themes? When they end up comparing you to the prior provider, they had, or how does that go? Tim: Yeah, there's a couple of scenarios there on why customers come to us and leave their current service provider right. One of the biggest things that I found with a customer that may be using a smaller service provider is they are really good at the tech stuff. They're not good at the business or the accounting side of the business, sure. So there's a delay in billing or an inaccuracy in billing and it's all of a sudden they get a stack of invoices three months later for work that was performed that they have no idea whether it got performed or what, and so there's a huge problem with the office operations of those particular service providers. So there's a pain point there and they're like I'm done, they come to me and they go, I'm done, this guy doesn't bill me. And then he bills me all at once, and then I got to try and back that information back into my financials and it totally screws up my forecast and my monthly reporting. So that's one reason that customers come to us. The other one is they don't get a response or the response is like unpredictable. So when they call in, they may get the guy right away, they may get the person like return their call the next day or three days later, so response time is really huge. I have a service desk here that is operated 24 hours a day, so our first level response is within minutes. So if you call my office, you'll get a response within minutes. If not on the first ring, it'll probably be the second or third ring. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, very rarely does any of our calls sit on hold or back up in the queue, so that's one way that customers come to us. The other way that customers come to us is that we have acquired eight other companies in the past 25 years. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, we completed our last acquisition in 2024. And we've gone out and found other service providers that may be struggling. They may not have the right business acumen to be able to run the business, so they're either marginally making money or they're losing money because they don't have the standard operating procedures that we have in place and the true business acumen to be able to run the service as a company. They've got customers, they're doing the work, they're getting paid, but they're not profitable. So we end up with firms like that that have come in through acquisitions. Dave: So yeah, I can see that and that's probably where your American Express background was helpful. Right Because you've had exposure to, you know, enterprise grade operations billing HR. Right operations billing HR right To where? Because American Express strikes me as just a well-run, well-oiled machine? Tim: Absolutely yeah, and I will say yeah, I will give them credit for that. You know it was a great run over there for 10 years and I learned not only about you know my job role and continuing to build on my experience in my job role, but how a company operates from a branding perspective, in branding your organization and keeping that brand consistent, but also in standard operating procedures and standardized deployment of systems. Right. I always refer back to not only my American Express days but the Southwest Airline days of standardization. If you can standardize the particular piece of your business that you're running, then it makes it so much easier. So we have standard software applications that we put out from a security tool set. We have standard equipment that we sell out to our customers, all on the Dell platform. My team is trained on the Dell hardware. They're trained on the tools that we use. The security tools, the management tools and all of those things integrate together to make a successful business. Dave: And again it goes back to enterprise level policies and procedures and way things that are, you know, repeating things that are successful you know, repeating things that are successful, okay Well, it sounds like like the first two parts of your success just seem mind blowing to me how you thought of this. But answer the phone when clients call and invoice timely Wow, I mean that's, that's quite a that's quite as. I mean I can't believe, to be honest, that you shared that secret sauce with me. I mean, my goodness, I mean that's. If you're not careful, there'll be other companies will start answering the phone and invoicing timely with that, you know inside knowledge. Tim: Yeah, I hope that we can improve the rest of the service providers out there, right. Dave: Sure. Tim: Competition is good. I like competition. It keeps us going. It gives us something to work towards as well. Dave: Yeah, so you talked a bit about some of the acquisitions and it sounds like you're kind of in a place where you're always open to the right acquisition. What are kind of the ideal characteristics of like the ideal acquisition? I'm guessing you're not going to try to acquire like E&Y's consulting group. I'm guessing you're looking for smaller operations than that. Tim: Yeah for sure you know. So an organization, the organizations we have acquired, have been anywhere from a half a million dollars to two million dollars in revenue. Those organizations the owners may be getting older, they may be getting ready to retire and they're not sure what they want to do with their business. What they do know is that they don't want to continue to run it Right and that it's marginally. They're making the same amount of money or less than if they had a corporate job Right. So it's sad to see, because they love what they do right and they want to place their customers in with a firm that has a similar culture, that takes care of their customers and really make sure that they're doing the right thing for their customers. So a firm that might be in a half million dollars to two million dollars in annual revenue, or the firm might be a five employee firm or smaller, and that they're getting to that point where they're kind of tired of running the organization and they'd like to transfer. They've taken care of their customers over the years and they've made relationships with those customers over the years and they like to put them with an organization that will take care of those customers and make it a seamless transition for the customer base sure, and I bet, I bet these sellers would probably be shocked if they were able to come in and look at the finances of their business like two years after you've acquired it. Dave: Right, because I'm guessing? Tim: Historically, yes, I will tell you, in probably at least half of those transactions that we've done in the either 12-month or 24-month payout period, they've made more money in that 12-month or 24-month period than they've made in the last three to four years. Dave: Oh, because that earn out ends up being a function of how much you bill over those 12 to 20. And you dramatically increase the revenues, so they're automatically getting participation in that. Absolutely. If they'd known that they would have sold to you 20 years earlier. They just wanted to work for you had their payout and then just become an employee. Right, they want to come out way ahead. Exactly, yeah. Tim: Yeah, now it's really good to see that. I mean, you know, that's one of the things that my competitors don't do. They try to come in and offer this ridiculous number for a business and then the earn out. They beat them up on the earn out and end up with anything. They end up with an initial payment and then maybe they'll get an earn out, maybe they they'll get an earn out, maybe they won't get an earn out, but they're going to tell them how horrible their organization was and how bad the customer base was and how it's not profitable and you know, it's just not how I do business. Dave: Yeah, and I'm having done. Did you say eight acquisitions? Correct, yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now. That now you have the ability Correct? Yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now that now you have the ability, the same way that I understand you know when Berkshire Hathaway acquires a at that same point. Now You've got enough success stories that you can point to those as another differentiator, right? Tim: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We're not at the Berkshire Hathaway point, but we got a couple under our belt and a couple of examples that we can refer back to and have some validation around our acquisition process. Dave: Yeah, because I'm just like, as I'm just playing through some hypothetical numbers, like you know, if a company had, say and you don't have to confirm these, but say a company was doing half a million in revenue, the profit is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, and it wouldn't surprise me if, like, two years later, you know that revenue number doubled and the profitability number like quintupled probably, and or you just you know dramatic increase. Just because you know I mean, quite frankly, you just have a better run business model but they had you're able to plug them in and so that's absolutely our goal. Tim: Yeah, and so your win isn't so much we like to see play out right. Dave: Yeah, and so your win isn't like other folks where you promise the moon and then you figure out all of these ways to not pay them. It sounds like your process is just like hey, because in your mind, being a strategic buyer, that business is worth way more to you. You know two years later, once you've done your magic to it, that business is worth way more and so you're okay paying them on an earn out, on a growing revenue number that maybe they didn't even contribute to, because at the end you know, as a I mean like on the front end you might pay, say you know, one times revenue, let's say just to pull a number out but by the time you get to the end of it, if the business is doubled and the profitability is quadrupled, you really ended up paying only one third or one half revenue. And so all of a sudden, whether you know found a way to squeeze them to where the imputed value you paid was one third annual billings or it was half of annual billings really doesn't matter, because the real value for you is like, year three after the earn out. You've got this great profitable book of business that you know you didn't pay much for in comparison to what it's worth two, three years later in your enterprise. Is that right that's? correct, yep, absolutely but the reason you didn't pay much, though, in in all honesty, was because the business wasn't very valuable. Tim: And it really wasn't right. Dave: Yeah, I mean they had owner value. Tim: Street value had a zero valuation on it right. Dave: Yeah, they had probably owner concentration risk. They may have had customer concentration risk, poor processes systems. You know the type of company that you know. There weren't people beating their door down to buy their because, effectively, you're just buying a job. If you bought that business, all right. How much do you pay for a job? Most people don't want to pay very much for a job. Now, what do you look for in an employee, just like you know the most techie person you can find. Is that really all that matters? Tim: No, it's not necessarily you know the most skilled technical guy out there, right? So one of the strategies that we have and maybe I shouldn't share that because my competitors may hear it, but we are a strong supporter of our veterans, so we have veterans that work in our organization. We're probably a 75 percent veteran organization. Dave: Oh, wow, ok yeah. Tim: Yeah, and we enjoy that. They come to us with technical skills and abilities but we build upon those we really do Right and we develop those particular individuals to be much better at what they do. But having our veterans on our team has been hugely successful from a reliability standpoint, as well as a dedication standpoint and the understanding to be able to follow orders as given, right Okay. So that's how we've been able to do that and our retention rate is extremely high. I would say that our culture is very good. We're very family oriented. We're very you know when work has to get done, work has to get done. But we also realize that the family comes first and there's family things that come in the way that need to be addressed. Right. You can't. Your kid gets sick. You have to go take care of your kid, you can't be at your job, right? Those kinds of things and being able to balance that. That was one of my challenges at American Express. I was a new father in my ninth year at American Express and I realized that, even though it was written in the book and preached on the values of the company, when it came time to actually exercise that it wasn't as flexible as I had hoped I was like you know. This is another reason I kind of need to get out. I need to raise my daughter and I need to, you know, and I plan to have other children. So family values and longevity of employees, it makes a huge difference you have to think about. If you have an IT guy in your organization and they're only there for a year or two years, they've gained a little bit of knowledge about your business and how it operates and what computer systems are, what systems and software you're using in your business. They get intellectual knowledge right that walks out the door when that employee leaves or you release that employee. Dave: Yeah. Tim: With maintaining our staffing. I've got people on my team that have been with us 15 plus years and they have a history of our customers that is like you can't buy that right. Sure, you've got that knowledge of that network, of when it was built, like we've built some of these companies, so we know it from day one and what we've done to different applications and how we've modified them over the years. So just having that knowledge be maintained with your service provider is huge, so, and we can go back and look at you know, oh, here's a ticket from 15 years ago that I worked, that I resolved this issue, wow. Dave: And how do you know? You know, cause it sounds like the company has been growing both organically and through acquisition. How do you know when it's time to hire? Do you wait till? Like people are working a hundred hours a week in complaining and quitting. Tim: Is that? Dave: the point you say oh geez, we probably should get somebody hired and we should probably hire in a hurry. The first person we come across Is that your growth strategy? Tim: for your people? No, definitely not, definitely not. So we have a lot of KPIs in the business that we can measure the performance of our organization, and mainly that's around resource utilization. Okay, so we have a lot of tools in our toolbox that give us an indication of when an employee is overloaded or when they have too much on their plate, so we can shuffle that within the business and be able to see who's got the workload and who doesn't have the workload, be able to move things around within the organization. But then we can also look at our utilization levels and, number one, make sure that we're profitable with those utilization levels but also staff appropriately to those utilization levels and know when it's time right. It's like okay, we acquired a company with five big customers and we didn't get any employees with it. Do we have the bandwidth or do we need to increase our staffing? So we really have a lot of KPIs around measuring that to make sure that we don't stress our existing resources and we balance it out that our people are profitable but they're not overworked. Dave: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And then how do your new employees come to you? Is it referrals from other employees mostly, or no, we do have. Tim: I sit on the board for one of the technical colleges and I use that technical college as our you know more or less recruiting platform. We find the best of the students. You know the kids that are shining. You know they kids that are shining. You know they're showing up on time for their classes, they're interested in developing their skills and they're really, you know, the top students in the tracks right Okay. Yeah, and then we recruit them out of there. We recruit them in at our first level, our entry level, on our service desk team and we build them up in our organization over a period of time, so lots of opportunity for them to grow once they come into our organization. Dave: Yeah, that sounds like a great way to bring new folks on. You can train them the way you want trained with your processes and systems. Tim: And then keep them right. Keep them you can give them a growth path and keep them so that they can be. They can get better at what they do, get a higher compensation, be successful in life. There's nothing makes me happier as an owner than to see an employee grow from where they came in the day they started with us to being successful in life. Buying a home buying a car, having a family, all of those kinds of things right, those are really important for me. They're kind of like energy for me to see a person develop over the course of their career with our organization. Dave: Some of my guests. When I ask them, like what's the most satisfying or gratifying part of the job, it seems to fall into two categories. It's either the satisfaction they get from serving the customer or the satisfaction they get from watching their team grow. It sounds like you're probably more on that watching the team grow and that and then they. I think it was Herb Keller that had the idea of take care of your employees, and your employees will take care of your customers Absolutely. Is that right, that your satisfaction comes more from taking care of the employees, and then the happy customers are just an expected outcome? Tim: Yeah, that is a result, right, absolutely. So you know, when I started started this organization, I started in the spare bedroom of my house. Oh okay, I had two analog phone lines. One was for my phone and the other one was a backup phone line, but it was also used for my dial-up internet to be able to help, oh wow, remote into into customers. Right, and looking back, I walk in now to our operations center and we have a pretty impressive organization and a pretty impressive facility that we own. And walking in now I'm like, holy crap, what the heck did I build? Dave: right that's awesome. That's super satisfying right, super yeah I can imagine well I cannot believe how the time is flying by. I always tell my guests it's like the fastest hour of their life is being on the podcast. Tim: How are we going to fill that hour, Dave? Dave: Yeah, I know. So I've got just two questions just to wrap up. If you had a time machine and could go back and give some advice to like your 25 or 30 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Tim: Ooh, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. What do I give myself? I probably would have started my organization sooner. Dave: Bingo. That's the answer that 90% of the people have. Tim: Yeah, I would have started my organization sooner. I needed that enterprise expertise, but I would have started it sooner. Dave: Sure, yeah, it's yeah, because the funny thing when you're an employee and if you follow the career path that your family suggested is actually they think it's a low risk, safe career path. But it's actually a high risk path because you have a customer concentration issue, meaning you have one customer, your employer and, as you learned three or four times that if they decide they don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. They don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. So it's actually less risky to have you know, even if you're just doing like consulting and all yours, just like a contract employee working 10 hours a week for four different companies, doing whatever. I find that that's far less risky, because if one of the companies doesn't need you, then you know you've only lost a quarter of your revenue. Tim: Yeah, I call it a scenario of I get hired multiple times a month. I hope I never get fired, but occasionally I get fired. But it should have an impact. I like it Well. Dave: so here's my last question. So you're a naturalized Houstonian, like I, am Tex-Mex or barbecue. Tim: Ooh, I like both really well. But yeah, tex-mex thing. If I don't have Mexican at least once a week, I'm going through withdrawals okay, so Tex-Mex? Dave: yeah, now, one person answered that question. I borrowed this from somebody else. One person answered it. They told me about a Mexican restaurant that has great brisket and they make like brisket enchiladas and brisket tacos and brisket quesadillas and he said that was like the best of both worlds there. And I thought, boy, that sounds like it. Tim: Yeah, there's nothing better than a brisket taco, for sure. Dave: That is awesome, I make some of those myself. That is great. Well, hey, as we wrap up, is there anything? I did not ask you that you wish I had Tim. Tim: No, I'd like to close by saying I shared with my team today and I'm always trying to come up with something that I share with my team every day and today I came up with solutions as a defense system designed to protect the most critical assets of your business the data. I like to just kind of close with solutions I as a defense system designed to protect your most critical assets your data, think about think about if your business lost access to its data, regardless of the circumstance. If they lost access to the data, what would that do to your organization? That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from happening. Dave: Yeah, Charlie Munger talks about the number one key to recognizing a great business opportunity is finding a company who's riding a wave that's only going to grow and increase over time, Because really all they have to do is just stay on the wave. Well, that certainly has applied to you, right? Because 25 years ago you probably had some companies that said ah our data is not that important. You know, I've got a Rolodex with all my clients' phone number and email, and you know, so the importance of data has only increased during that time, right? Tim: Oh yeah, it's dramatically increased yeah. Dave: Well, it's also. Tim: Everybody trusts that data will be there when they're ready to use it. Dave: Yeah, well, and also the other fact is digitization right 25 years ago, most of their data may not have been digital, it may have been analog or paper or whatever, but now virtually everything is digitized, which makes the data even more important. Tim: I go back 35 years in this industry and when I go back and look at it, I replaced the inner office envelope. Oh yeah, people would type up a memo on a typewriter, put it in an inner office envelope and put whoever was going to and put it in their outbox and the mail guy would come by and pick it up. I replaced that guy. That's true? Dave: Well, that is awesome. Well, Tim, I really appreciate your time. This has really been fun and you've really given me kind of an insight into what makes a really well-run IT services firm operate. So I really appreciate your time. Tim: Yeah, I appreciate your time as well, Dave. Always good to chat with you and good to catch up and appreciate your time today as well. Thanks so much. Dave: All, right, yeah, you too. Special Guest: Tim Loney.

Nobody is successful in life without overcoming failure and adversity several times along the way. We're revisiting some of the most compelling interviews ever on Impact Theory in this mashup. Tai Lopez, Jay Williams, David Bayer, and Tim Grover have got heavy-duty stories about not quitting, what you need to do if you find yourself in a hole, and how you can pivot to a better life. Tai Lopez is an entrepreneur, author, investor, motivational speaker, crypto philanthropist, and creator of The 67 Steps Program. By age 21, Jay Williams had achieved his dreams of playing in the NBA and becoming wealthy. But before his second season, he suffered a horrific motorcycle accident that led to 10 surgeries, months in the ICU, and doubts that he would walk again. It took him years to heal, but he eventually clawed his way out of the darkness to become a popular NBA analyst. David Bayer built a series of highly successful internet ventures but paid a price, battling long-term drug addiction and alcoholism. He eventually recovered and embraced a new addiction…personal evolution. Tim Grover is an iconic peak performance and mental toughness trainer who has coached hundreds of athletes, including Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. [Original air date: 8-11-22]. SHOW NOTES: 1:00 | The Four Pillars of Happiness (Lopez) 5:15 | Conscientiousness is Most Correlated to Business Success (Lopez) 12:35 | The Importance of Reading and Mentoring (Lopez) 19:30 | You Have to be Crazy to be Great/The Kobe Story (Williams) 23:30 | The Relentless Mentality (Williams) 27:31 | How to Assess Who You Really Are (Williams) 31:30 | Making Choices and Overcoming Adversity (Williams) 37:35 | Breakthroughs Based on What You Believe In (Bayer) 45:00 | Finding Clarity and Linking it to Purpose (Bayer) 47:55 | Helping People Get Past Their Fears (Bayer) 55:20 | Q & A with Tim - How to Bounce Back from Failure (Bilyeu) 1:36:50 | Tim Grover and Understanding Your Dark Side (Tim Grover) CHECK OUT OUR SPONSORS Netsuite: Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at https://impacttheory.co/netsuiteITsept  Range Rover: Explore the Range Rover Sport at https://impacttheory.co/rangeroverITpodsept  Navage: Get a cleaning kit as a FREE gift with your order, but only by going to https://impacttheory.co/navageITpodsept24  Shopify: Sign up for a $1/month trial period at https://impacttheory.co/shopifyITpodsept  ZBiotics: Head to https://impacttheory.co/zbioticsITseptpod  and use the code IMPACT at checkout for 15% off. Found Banking: Sign up for Found for FREE today at https://impacttheory.co/foundITpodSept  Betterhelp: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://betterhelp.com/impacttheory and get 10% off your first month. AG1: Get 5 free AG1 Travel Packs and a FREE 1 year supply of Vitamin D with your first purchase at https://www.drinkag1.com/impact  Aura: Secure your digital life with proactive protection for your assets, identity, family, and tech – Go to https://aura.com/impact to start your free two-week trial. FOLLOW TOM: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/ Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en Twitter: https://twitter.com/tombilyeu YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu What's up, everybody? It's Tom Bilyeu here. If you're serious about leveling up your life, I urge you to check out my new podcast, Tom Bilyeu's Mindset Playbook —a goldmine of my most impactful episodes on mindset, business, and health. Trust me, your future self will thank you. LISTEN AD FREE + BONUS EPISODES on APPLE PODCASTS: apple.co/impacttheory Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

TIM BLAKE NELSON - Actor, writer, director, and producer Tim Blake Nelson has appeared in over ninety feature films, including Steven Spielberg's Lincoln, Ang Lee's Billy Lynne's Long Halftime Walk, Louis Letterier's The Incredible Hulk, Jay Roach's Meet the Fockers, Steven Gaghan's Syriana, Miguel Arteta's The Good Girl, Steven Spielberg's Minority Report, Terrence Malick's The Thin Red Line, Andrew Davis' Holes, and the Coen Brothers' O Brother Where Art Thou? Nelson also starred as the title character in Netflix's The Ballad of Buster Scruggs, written and directed by the Coen Brothers. He next appears in Marvel's Captain America: New World Order, reprising his role as “Samuel Sterns” from The Incredible Hulk. Andrew Liner - Andrew Liner can most recently be seen starring in Peacock's VAMPIRE ACADEMY from Executive Producer Julie Plec and can currently be seen in HBO Max's original film, GRAY MATTER. Next up, he will be shooting a lead role in Destry Spielberg's directorial debut, PLEASE DON'T FEED THE CHILDREN opposite Michelle Dockery. Vincent Grashaw - Director/Editor And Then I Go with Melanie Lynskey, Justin Long, and newcomers Arman Darbo and Sawyer Barth. Also, What Josaiah Saw and Coldwater. Synopsis: Retired pugilist Bernard “Bang Bang” Rozyski (Tim Blake Nelson) is inspired to try his hand at training once he reconnects with his estranged grandson. While their training brings Bang Bang out of the hole he's been living in, everyone questions his motivations, including an ex-girlfriend from decades ago, who was privy to Bang Bang's meteoric rise in the sport in the 80s as well as the rivalry with his former opponent, her cousin and Detroit's Mayoral candidate Darnell Washington. Is Bang Bang merely passing down inherited rage, or is there true altruism behind his tutelage? Questions: Vincent Grashaw - How did he come across this script from Will Janowitz? Why he chose to edit the entire film and taking a month? How did editing inform your directing? How did his background inform what he wanted to say about boxing? Tim - How did this script come to you? What went into the preparation for this film? Andrew - What was the audition like? How did you guys do the droopy eye and why was that important to include? Host: Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@MentorsontheMic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@MichelleSimoneMiller⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@MentorsontheMic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@MichelleSimoneM⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook page:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.facebook.com/mentorsonthemic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Website:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ www.michellesimonemiller.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.mentorsonthemic.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Youtube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/user/24mmichelle⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ For more like this, try TRIBECA: Lisa Edelstein and Gina Torres discuss "THE EVERYTHING POT" --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/michelle-miller4/support

Grandpa Bill revisits past visits and an upcoming visit with Tim Doyle The Golden Ones Path to Oneness Tomorrow on Grandpa Bill's Grunts & Groans: Embracing Mercury Retrograde with Tantric Teachings and Beyond! Get ready for a mind-bending episode tomorrow as Grandpa Bill welcomes a special guest, Tim Doyle of The Golden Ones! Tim, a seasoned China resident for over a decade, knows a thing or two about navigating life's twists and turns, especially during the upcoming Mercury Retrograde. Here's what's in store: Tantric Teachings for Mercury Retrograde: Dive into the wisdom of Tantra and unlock secrets for transforming challenges into opportunities during this celestial event. Life in China and Cultural Insights: Experience China through Tim's eyes, from heart-brain coherence practices to meditation to incorporating yoga into daily life. Probing Questions for Tim: We'll explore the intersection of Eastern and Western philosophies, delve into personal anecdotes from Tim's China adventures, and get his tips for finding peace and purpose amidst chaos. This episode is perfect for you if you're: Curious about using Tantra to navigate Mercury Retrograde. Interested in how cultural practices can enhance well-being. Open to different perspectives on life, Eastern and Western. Looking for insights and inspiration from a seasoned China resident. Don't miss out on this exciting conversation! #mercuryretrograde #tantra #heartbraincoherence #meditation #yoga #lifeinchina #grandpabill #thegoldones #pathtooneness Taming the Trickster: Tantric Tricks for Mercury Retrograde with Tim Doyle From China to Cosmos: Unveiling Life's Lessons with The Golden One's Tim Doyle Beyond the Bamboo Curtain: Meditation, Yoga, and Finding Peace in China with Tim Doyle Grandpa Bill Meets The Golden One: A Journey into Eastern Wisdom and Western Wit Probing Questions for Tim: How do you integrate Tantric principles into your daily life, especially during Mercury Retrograde? What unique lessons has your experience living in China taught you about mindfulness and resilience? How do you find balance between Eastern and Western approaches to self-discovery and well-being? Can you share a personal story from your time in China that exemplifies the power of heart-brain coherence and meditation? What advice would you give someone experiencing uncertainty or seeking inner peace during Mercury Retrograde? Remember to tune in tomorrow and join Grandpa Bill and Tim Doyle on a captivating exploration of mind, body, and spirit! Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share this post with your friends who might benefit from Tim's wisdom! I hope this helps get you excited for tomorrow's show! --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bhsales/message

On this episode of In The Circle, we explore deep into the heart of recovery and self-discovery, guided by a compelling inquiry from Tim—How can I change my response when confronting people, places, and things that trigger frustration and irritability? This question is not just relevant but essential for those of us on the path of recovery, as it touches on the core issue of dealing with our reactions when we no longer hide behind addictive behaviors.The externally focused mind highlights the common trap of seeking satisfaction from outside sources, which often leads to frustration, anger, and a sense of failure when things don't align the way that “we” want them to. We must look inward and understand that true peace and alignment come from within, not from the external world. This internal focus shifts the emphasis from external validation to internal peace and self-awareness. Recovery is not just about abstaining from addictive behaviors, but also about elevating our consciousness and living a life of presence, kindness, and compassion.Tommy discussesShifting our focus from external validation to internal peaceWhy we all need self-reflection and inner focusThe benefits of developing a ‘neutral mind' How to stay centered during difficult timesThe true nature of addiction SPECIAL LIMITED TIME OFFER: Join Tommy Rosen for The 8-hour Awakening, a live, online, transformational journey beginning December 9, 2023. Only $108 (Regular price $347). Find out more and grab your spot here: R20.com/8hourawakening Further Links & ResourcesCatch a Meeting. We offer 30+ Universal Recovery meetings every week. Meetings are always free.Want ongoing recovery insights and inspiration delivered to your inbox? Subscribe to the UpliftJoin our Recovery 2.0 Community: access your authentic power, connect with others on a similar path, and thrive in a life beyond addictionSubscribe to The Recovery Channel on YoutubeVisit our websiteCome and experience an in-person event or retreat: r20.com/eventsAddiction is part of everyone's journey, but recovery is not. The Recovery 2.0 Membership is a place where you can explore the topics that interest you, find community, and connect with Tommy Rosen on a personal level. It's here that we'll dig into spirituality and union of the mind, body, and spirit, and transform from the inside out. You will learn and grow alongside a community of supportive, conscious, compassionate, and vibrant individuals, like you!Join us at r20.com/welcome to explore how to move beyond addiction and thrive in your life.Connect with TommyInstagramFacebookTikTokRecovery...

Picture it, the turn of the millennium, and the dawn of the online music revolution. jD just shelled out his last few dollars on The Tragically Hip's seventh studio record, Music at Work, unaware that it would mark the end of an era for him - his final first-day purchase. From there we take a deep dive into the album's reception, its relevance today, and the debate if it was a step out of The Hip's comfort zone.Make sure to get your tickets for Longslice Presents: Getting Hip to the Hip - An Evening for the Downie Wenjack Fund today! https://bit.ly/GHTTHTicketsTranscriptTrack 1:[0:00] Welcome to getting hip to the hip. I'm JD. I'm here as always with Pete and. [0:06] Tim How are you fellas doing this fine day? Track 3:[0:10] Doing great doing great Just getting it going and excited to be here and see a couple of my favorite dudes over the interwebs. Track 2:[0:19] I Am doing supercalifragilisticexpialidocious to fucking discuss this fucking record Oh, wow. Track 3:[0:27] Oh, boy. Track 2:[0:28] Oh, boy. Track 3:[0:29] So... Fasten your seatbelts, folks. Track 1:[0:31] Fasten your seatbelts, folks. Track 2:[0:32] What does that mean? Spoons, plural. Spoons full of sugar. Not just fucking... Not just one. Track 1:[0:39] The Disney references are just rolling out. Track 3:[0:41] Jeez. Track 1:[0:44] Well, we're here today to talk about the 2000 release, June 2000, the seventh studio record by seminal Canadian rock band The Tragically Hip. Music at work. Before we go into our vaunted segment of song by song, let's just get a general sense of what you guys thought of this record. Where you listened to it, what you were exposed to, how it formed over time. What do you think there, Pete? Track 2:[1:21] I'll be brief, because I want to really dive into the songs, too, but I will say, I listened to this record at work. Well, I was at my computer. Come on, Tim, did you want that one? Were you waiting to use that one? Track 3:[1:42] No, it was your turn. It was your turn. A lot of listeners right now are like, oh my god, we're out of here. Track 2:[1:52] Listen to it in the car. The sound system in the car made it really pop. But I will say, probably the best place to listen to it was on runs. It was just... I love the record. I really, really enjoyed this record profusely. So I'll say that. I'll leave it there. All right. Track 1:[2:21] Mr. Leiden. Track 3:[2:22] Yeah, so I listened to this. I had a bunch of headphone-based physical therapy the past week, and I pretty much had it on for all of that, which was very much focused movement and definitely could consider audio. And it was it was pretty good. It took me back to, I think, mostly to Live Between Us, like if we're gonna go apples to apples or apples and oranges throughout their discography thus far, for many reasons. And there's some songs on here I really like a lot. There's a couple that I thought were pretty different, like definitely a step out than past albums. And yeah, at one point I thought this might be my favorite so far in our work to get to this point. I thought this might be one of my favorite albums so far, but I'm still questioning it. I'm still thinking that there might be another one out there in the future that I just I Give you know nine point five two or whatever. Album Rating and Discussion on Critics' OpinionsTrack 1:[3:35] It might be Gotcha Yeah, this was rated relatively low by all music and what? Track 3:[3:43] Big fucking surprise They're like the professor that doesn't give a is you know, yeah, yeah negative five out of five I I have a little bit of a vibe with that, but I understand sometimes there's a great piece of work out there that still doesn't get the accolades it deserves, and that happens so often. Track 1:[4:06] Yeah. Well, shall we get into it? Track 3:[4:10] Yeah. Track 2:[4:12] What did they give it, by the way, J.D.? I'm curious. Track 1:[4:14] Three out of five. Track 3:[4:15] Three, right? Three out of five. So just some quick research on the title that I found of the album, Music at Work. So from what I read, it's poking fun at a rock station in Canada, 100.5 FM. Yeah. E-Zed Rock or Easy Rock, whichever. Track 4:[4:38] You went with Zed first. You're so Canadian. Oh my God. So Canadian. Track 3:[4:45] Music at Work was their tagline, you know. It was like, imagine this kind of 80s looking logo in essence like a corporatized Van Halen Firebird Camaro looking Easy Rock 100.5 FM and underneath at music at work. That makes sense. But I thought maybe, yeah, I thought maybe the hip tagging, you know, taking this tagline was perhaps their, I guess, you know, maybe even, I think it was their stab at back at clear channel. I thought like Like, these guys, yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought these guys are still talking. Track 2:[5:36] Was that a Clear Channel station? Track 3:[5:38] Rock and roll. Track 2:[5:39] I'm sure they were. Track 3:[5:40] Dude. Track 1:[5:41] It's a heavy format. Track 3:[5:42] I didn't look it up, but if you look at everything about it, I'm sure it is. Track 2:[5:48] And at that time, dude, nowadays it's like, it's not even a competition. Like Clear Channel owns the Airwaves, but I remember at that time it was like, you were We were starting to realize that every station was a clear channel station. Track 1:[6:02] Yeah. Yeah. Track 3:[6:04] Yeah. So, that was kind of some brief history on the album title. The first song, you know, title track, album name. The First Single from the RecordTrack 1:[6:40] You I think it's a, little bit of a, a That chives. Yeah, it was the first single from the record too. So okay. Yeah, it dropped a couple weeks before the record came out. Track 2:[7:33] Well, not to correct Tim, but I'm going to do it. Do it. It is not the title track. Ah, yes. The name of the track is actually my music at work. Yeah, interesting. And I didn't... No, no, no. Track 3:[7:54] I was really close, man. Track 2:[7:56] You were close, too. Track 3:[7:58] You know, okay. The influence of the... The Groove and Tightness of the New RecordTrack 2:[8:07] I mean, if I picture myself as I have now, listen, have listened to the previous hip records, anticipating this new record coming out, hearing this first track on this new record and just like putting it on volume up, start my car, light my cigarette, open my Red Bull, whatever the fuck I was doing in the year 2000. And just fucking wow. I mean, they must have just been like, fuck yes. I mean, this song, it was, I wrote this down. This is one of the things I wrote down in the notes. The song was born in the pocket. Like when you talk about when you're in the pocket, musically, I think we all know what that means. I'm sure most of the listeners know what it means. But it's just, it's in the pocket. It's just the groove, the rhythm, the fucking instruments, everything is just fucking tight and it fits, gourd sounds fucking great. It's a great build after the La La La with the soft guitar. Oh God, I've got to eventually get there. Track 3:[9:29] I'll just quickly add in there the La La La. Track 2:[9:30] Johnny Cain? Track 3:[9:31] Okay, go, go, go. Track 2:[9:32] Go ahead. No, no. You go ahead. Track 3:[9:35] I was going to fill in for you. The La La La part for this one, I mean that was new. We haven't had La La La's yet in soft. No, not really. Right. Track 2:[9:42] No, no, yeah But but Johnny Johnny Faye. Yeah drummer. Yeah Really just fucking builds it into where the song you know starts to go at that point and then there's a There's a Lord of the Rings reference in there. I think I feel like it is I took it as what cuz he says middle of the earth. Ah Which I'm always My record store that I grew up going to in down in California, now out of business, was called Middle Earth. And it was a fucking great record store. This is the type of record store where dollars to fucking donuts, man. If you were there in the 90s, they were like, if you went up to the front and asked this guy Larry for a recommendation, he would have fucking slipped you a hip record. Hands down. I was just too scared to fucking go up to Larry cause he was cool. Larry had a picture of David Bowie where David Bowie was smiling, not Larry. Track 1:[10:47] Wow. Track 2:[10:48] Like that goes to show you how cool fucking Larry was. Track 3:[10:51] You know what? I can't tell you how many. Stories I've heard about like interviews with artists who had that record store They went to growing up and how walking up to the clerk whoever was working was like the most intimidating thing Like you like you like so many artists would walk I've read it about it so many times Walking a record store with like kind of tail between your legs and you're afraid to purchase what you've picked For being ridiculed or anything, right? It's just it was like the most I mean think about it back You know in the 80s or 70s or 90s like going to Tower Records or wherever you go and grabbing that Item and walking up to this like hipper than thou person Clerk and trying to make over just yeah Yeah, this was before that it was common where people had like, you know Sleeves of tattoos and like ear and nose piercings like you saw somebody up there at the front with a fucking a bar through the nose a two sleeves of tattoos, and green hair. Track 2:[11:56] Everybody's got fucking green hair nowadays, right? And you're just like. Track 1:[12:00] Makes me sick. Track 2:[12:01] No, but you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, my nephew's got green hair for crying out loud. But like, I don't give a shit, you know, I'm telling my nephew what I'm listening to, but if, you know, back in the 90s, I walked up to the counter and saw somebody like that, that I was like dude I am not bringing up anything that's on the radio right yeah that's so cool that's so cool that you had this this tragically hip frame of reference from back in the record store days I mean I completely don't have that I had a bumper sticker in college you know of my apartment complex neighbor so. The Second Song: Messy and IncoherentTrack 3:[19:00] Yeah. Track 2:[19:00] Do you want to? I don't know. I mean, I'm ready to fucking blow up in there. You know what I'm saying? Okay. The fucking the second song. I mean, it's hard to top this second song. I mean, it is when I first heard it. I loved how it faded in from the first track. And then he just starts saying this is what the fuck is Tiger the Lion? Track 1:[19:30] I don't. Track 2:[19:30] I'm just saying the first time I heard it, right. And I did my research on it, which I kind of regret. I gotta stop looking at lyrics. Once I stopped looking at lyrics, these songs really open up for me. Track 1:[19:41] You can't stop though. It's gorg, right? Like, you know? Track 2:[19:45] No, but he eventually started listening to them and internalizing them, which is better for me than reading them. Either way, this fucking song, it just opens up so messy and incoherent and I'm like, what the fuck? I mean, again, putting myself in the position of a hit fan when they hear this for the first time. They're like, is this gorgeous going off on his fucking, you know, he wrote some crazy poetry and he's just, you know, free-forming it right now. What's he doing? You know, but the The instrumentation on it, it's so well thought out. Track 4:[20:24] Right? It's... Track 2:[20:26] I love how, because for me as a musician, my writing style is pretty incoherent. A lot of people say, like, lyrics wise, my shit doesn't make sense, which is, you know, it's not like I'm going for it, but it's just, it is what it is. But the John Cage quote? Track 3:[20:45] Yeah. Track 2:[20:46] Oh, fuck. I mean, I'm a huge John Cage, but just all about who that guy was as an individual who brought his brain to art and music. There's a melodic drop down, the purpose is not unique. I just, I don't know, dude, I did a little bit of research on the meaning of the song about it being like a reference to fighter pilots. Did you get that too, Tim? Track 3:[21:21] Yep, yep, yep. Big time. There's been so many World War II references that I just, you know, I instantly went to that, which I have a emotional family connection to World War II, so that hits heavy for me. Track 2:[21:36] Two-way radio, yeah. But, uh, this, line... JD, I thought of you when I read this. But not to get order from chaos. Tell you how to create simply wait to your life like, like, there's, there, there is no order. Yeah, there's no other shoe that were, you know, and I don't know, dude, this fucking song is, I still can't fucking and unwrap it and make sense of it. It's just a fucking banger. Yeah. What a song. Living in the Music: Appreciating Art without Analyzing LyricsTrack 3:[22:15] I mean, Pete, as a, maybe you can clarify a little bit for me, as a songwriter, you, when this one came on and you listened through it and you say that you, sometimes you don't want to research lyrics just so you can live in it in your head as much as possible, right? Is that kind of your sentiment? Right? Track 2:[22:34] I mean, I think, I think the lyrics, Because I think that what you, for me, this is me personally, what I tend to do is, is rather than physically listen to the song, which is what the medium is meant to do for listening, I'm reading what I'm listening to. And so it starts to, I start to make judgment upon what I'm listening to based on what I'm reading. Which is never like there's so many weird fucking lyrics in this fucking record And I'm sure we can talk about it till the cows come home Yeah But it did me it did more damage for me in the beginning because it was like I'm not fucking getting this I'm not getting this and then I just was like, okay I put the lyrics down and then I just started to listen to it incessantly. Okay, this shit's fucking making sense. Okay. Got it and then not to Not to bury the lead, but I mean if you don't get the fucking Comfortably Numb, Rob Baker literally Channeling the fucking David Gilmour in this fucking song. I mean What do you I mean, what are we doing here? There's one drop where it doesn't it doesn't go down to the next chord that you just feel like it's like going to country, but it doesn't go there and it's just... [24:01] Yeah, his guitar tone, everything about it. He's using the Strat on this. [24:06] Fucking it's great song. Sorry. Yeah. Amazing song. Track 3:[24:10] For me to go from music at work to this was like, whoa, this is, you know, if this is second gear for taking off in the car, and it's like, what did our car just change into? Because the song is, Because the song is its own beast. Man, me and my dad jokes, dad puns, tiger, the lion. So I mean, this is the longest song on the album. It's 5 and 1 1⁄2 minutes. And I love songs that can hit 5, 6, 7 minute mark, and you don't even know they're that long. Track 1:[24:47] Yeah. Track 3:[24:48] Like sometimes you hear a song, and you're like, god damn, These guys just wanted this to be the longest song ever, and they succeeded. But this one, it's very, no, it doesn't feel that long. And I think, Pete, you touched on most of it. But the themes, I guess I should say, I don't read the lyrics or look into the lyrics until I've listened to one of these albums in great length or many times. So I try not to pay attention to the lyrics. If I'm listening to it in the car and I'm at a stop for too long, then I can actually hit the whatever on Spotify to make the lyrics pop up. I'll check it out for a minute. But I try to live in my head for as long as possible, I think, kind of like you, Pete, to just get deep into the song. [25:44] The John Cage references. I mean, there's so much in this song in both that theme and kind of World War II themes, but the kind of two big takeaways for me were this song is about challenging the listener and society and anyone to appreciate, like, nature, art in life, or just art, or like literature or whatever it might be. And if you live your life without recognizing any art form, then you're like a fucking robot, you know? That's kind of, that's what the song was about to me in that regard, the John Cage regard and all of that. The his radio goes silent, you know that like I imagined this as like World War two airplane Pilot, you know the his engines destroyed And he's just falling from the sky, you know, like and stops working. This is where my head my engine stops working You have this like last bit of life where you hear the wind the radio stops working You know, you're on your way down. That's kind of where I went with. Track 1:[27:03] Whoa, that's heavy, man. Introduction and Researching Band MembersTrack 3:[27:04] Yeah, that's kind of how it felt to me. Okay, so I did some research around who else is playing with this band. Because we've talked about, at least the past album, I've been talking about, you know, who's that on backup singing blah blah blah blah blah. Right. So with this, I guess I would have talked about this at the beginning, but with this song we have a guy named Chris Brown from Toronto on keys, right? So he toured, He recorded and toured with the band with this album. He came from a band or was in a band called, Bourbon Tabernacle Choir. Yep, you got it. And from the 80s and 90s, which I heard of that, man. Yeah, which I didn't know an ounce about until I kind of did this research. So finally, I was making some headway with this album to hear who else we have contributing, which is an obvious impact to me as a listener to hear kind of extra elements going on. But this song, man, it could be its own album. That's what I thought. Like this song, this song on a 7-inch on one side, like it's hand me that. I'll pay 20 bucks for it. Like let's go. It's fucking that good. Track 1:[28:30] Yeah, I agree. Track 3:[28:32] Lake Fever, the next one. This is where I was like, okay, maybe we're shifting gears into like this perfect love song or forlorn love or is this a song about loss or remembrance or you know what is this what is this going on there's amazing prose within this song like was the brief dude seriously i knew pete was just like i knew his heart was melting for this It was probably driving down, you know, here's Pete, everybody in Spain, in his awesome vehicle. I don't even know what it is, and I don't want to know until I visit him someday, so no spoilers, J.D. But here's Pete in his awesome vehicle driving down some coastal highway in fucking Spain. This is a dude from the LBC, right? And this song comes on, and there's tears coming from Pete's face on this beautiful sunny day. It's like, I, I, you know, I'm, I'm hearing this song during fucking physical therapy. Therapy just gone. [29:42] Is this a wedding song or is it a funeral song or do I want this at my wake or do I play this for Amy on her next anniversary? Like what the fuck is this emotional song going on in place three after my music at work and after Tiger the Lion we have this Lake Fever. It's like what the hell so yeah it was this you know this this is that third gear song where i'm like okay, let's see let's see where this is gonna go what's this about is it oh yeah okay maybe it is about the cholera outbreak in toronto in 1834 oh fuck god damn it okay that's what it's about guess i'm I'm not playing at my anniversary. No, not playing at next April 14th, honey. Track 1:[30:38] But it's more than that because the protagonist is regaling his potential lover with that story. Like the song isn't necessarily about like fever. It's like this couple are walking in the woods about to go, you know, have sex. And he's so nervous that he's trying to like, you know, talk to this girl and he's telling her, well, there was this time in Toronto that there was a sewer back up and cholera got in the way and it went all the way up to Ottawa and near Kingston and it was terrible, many people died and she's just like, hurry, just hurry. Just Coital Fury, you know, like, yeah, that wine, man. Track 2:[31:26] Fuck, it's good. Dude, you know, I tell you, it's it's funny because I think it's just the Canadian. I mean, last week, Tim and I both heard the rush in fireworks for last week's a record but you know I started to hear the first thing I heard and now I like don't hear it at all but the first thing I heard with this song was the percussion feeling very once again very Alanis, right wow but yeah put that all kind of behind it's kind of all in the past dude the glockenspiel which I think they're using and like the keyboard effect over when he says the the word courage is I'm just you're right Tim I'm driving down the fucking coast in the mountainous windy roads of Malaga Spain and just fucking crying with my wind blowing, my air blowing in the wind. Cigarette out the window, the arm just like, Oh, just fucking loving this. [32:42] We're going to get into it a little bit more, because I because there's a there's a couple of songs on this record. And I remember I don't know what record it was, oh, it was, was Troll Dan House that I referred to as the Tragically Hips Xerope. Track 1:[33:01] Yes. Track 3:[33:02] Right, right. Track 2:[33:05] But, do you know what this record is? Track 1:[33:07] Yeah. Track 2:[33:07] And it's funny because this record actually came out before the record I'm going to reference. And I'll tell you why. Track 1:[33:14] All right, hit me. Track 2:[33:15] This is fucking the Tragically Hips Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. All of the fucking instrumentation on it, all the pianos, the echoey pianos, a lot of the guitars. It's so fucking Wilco, man. And so I started thinking to myself, well, you know, what, what the fuck did, what, you know, what do we, well, I'll get into it, I'll get into the next one. Track 1:[33:44] We'll go. Give her. Track 2:[33:46] Yeah, we're going to put it down. So this song, there's a line in there saying the United States of ricochet. Something something happy in way. You know what I'm talking about, JD? Track 1:[34:02] I don't know the lyric offhand though, sorry. Track 2:[34:04] Great fucking line. And I'm getting very like, ashes of American flags like references to because I feel like I feel like Gord was really, um, getting, like, a lot of the shit that he focused on was the, God, the phrase, the term I'm trying to look for, like the plight of Canadians. Okay. Track 3:[34:30] I got it. I got it here if you want me to read it. Track 2:[34:33] Yeah, you want to read it, Tim? Track 3:[34:35] Yeah, it's just United States of Ricochet from the Boardwalk to the Appian Way, which I... From the Boardwalk to the Appian Way, yeah, that's what I'm looking for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Track 2:[34:42] Diamond Files, Corporate Wraves, you know. So he's, I feel like up until this point, he's made a lot of references to not just the indigenous folks up north, in terms of, you know, what he's talked about, and what I know he's eventually going to talk more about. But I started to think like, God, what other band do I know that did that? And like, that's kind of where Wilco went, you know, they had Uncle Tupelo and then AM, which was their first record. And being there were kind of like a soft watered down version of, of that country vibe of Uncle Tupelo. And then when they hit Yankee Hotel, it was like, Whoa, what the fuck is this? This is not the same band. I remember hearing and I got the same vibe. And so I, anyway, I Googled and started doing a little research, come to find out. So I read Jeff Tweedie's. Memoir, which is a great book, you'll get through it in a day, man. It's called Let's Go So We Can Get Back. And he references them on tour with Tragically Hip during the Another Roadside Attraction tour. Track 1:[36:03] That's right. The third one. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Wilco's Similarities to Other Bands and Songwriting InfluencesTrack 2:[36:07] Yeah. And just this record came out a year before Yankee Hotel. So I don't know what if they were trading demos back and forth or they were playing music together on Tour and but fuck man. I mean so many similarities with this record and that record interest so many Do you feel you might catch my drift here? Track 3:[36:32] But do you feel like? When you hear other bands and are reminded of Wilco do you feel like Wilco has just borrowed so much from other bands or do you feel like I'm not gonna we're not going to turn this into a Wilco podcast by the way or do you feel like Wilco like really do you feel like Wilco just absolutely stand on their own as songwriters because I mean that's there that's like to me songwriting music you know what I mean yeah I know what you mean um it's a good question and I'll answer it as short as possible because I think This is something you could fucking have a garage with a, you know, half ounce and fucking go on forever. Track 2:[37:17] But I think Jeff Tweedy is an amazing songwriter, and he'd probably be the first one to admit that they've taken so much from other people. But I think that that band, especially when they went in, their record, two records after they did Yankee Hotel was a record called Sky Blue Sky. When they really got into that, they were just like... They were at the top of their fucking game. and they they they knew how to um, but it's It's hard to say man. I mean It's a great question tim because I you could say the same for Tragically him who are they both big time? Track 3:[38:05] Yeah, we've had so many references. Track 2:[38:07] I don't think I don't think rob baker would he be the last person to say he wasn't fucking fucking playing the exact notes that Gilmore played on fucking comfortably on that guitar solo or on Tiger the Lion. But it's not like you're saying, oh, you're stealing. It's like, it's an homage. It's also working it into a song that is not that song is, you know, you do it all. I've been writing a tune this week that is a is a indie rock tune adapted from the fucking Opening theme of the one of the Legend of Zelda songs. So cool. And am I stealing from Koji Kondo? Yes but It's in so I look at it more as an inspiration. Track 3:[38:54] Well, I mean they I mean all all artists, you know are inspired from every direction I just I don't I don't want to get into it too deep. Track 1:[39:01] I just went from no Writers I think good songwriters Make it almost Like a magician, you know, like a good songwriter. You don't see the sleight of hand. You don't see the Palming you don't see it like they're absolute pros and they stand on their own But of course you can't help but be affected by what you are exposed to and what you enjoy, you know You can't help it. Track 2:[39:34] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and JD, you're right when you say that, because there was something that I put down, and I think I sent it to you, but I put this down about a month and a half ago, and there was a little guitar lick I put on there, and it was Nell. I recorded it with a fucking jazzmaster. It was Nell's Climb from fucking Wilco. And I was like, I was so worried that it was so obvious, and I played it for Issa, my wife, And I played it for you and I think I was like was it too much and like no it's just it was just right It was perfect. It was like kind of like a little but to me it was like My ears I literally stole the fucking Notes from him and like I took them and I said those are mine now. Thank you very much You know, but like it's it's not easy to do man. I don't know JD. Track 3:[40:25] Yes. I thought it I think they pulled it was just me JD that Pete Pete called up in the middle of my night and serenaded me with some guitar licks. Damn, I'm not feeling as special now. Track 2:[40:40] You'll get it Tim, you'll get it. Track 3:[40:42] Hey, I thought putting down... Track 1:[40:43] Putting down, yeah. Track 3:[40:45] Yeah, so putting down, I felt like, I mean Pete commented on the, you know, the references and stories of this great continent and what we did to the Indigenous folks that were already here and the land grabs and you know that's hitting hard with this one and I feel like with Gord's themes and songwriting and his connotations of it all, this is that song for the album, I thought it was like big and heavy. [41:22] I didn't really know what it was about my first handful of listens. I couldn't really peg it until I did a little bit deeper diving into it. But you know, it was my first few listens, it was kind of like a car ride sing-along song. I felt, you know, it just felt familiar. It felt hip. I didn't think like, this is the best song on the album, and I thought it held its place on the album for what it was. So that's kind of where it ended with me. Cool. The next one, Stay, on the other hand, I thought, man, this song, it's quiet, it's cute, it's cute. I hadn't had that feeling before. Is it a thank you? You know, the Bureau Chiefs and the Shrugging Spies, I thought this was at first when I first heard this? I thought this is hilarious. Without researching, I thought this was like a thank you or something to the band's road crew, because I heard beer and cheese and shrugging spies, not bureau chiefs. I mean, I was like, I was so incorrect with this song. You were a great crew. You were a great you. You know, what is the storyline here? Is it about going to war and relationships or what? What is going on here? Track 1:[42:48] Maybe a little of everything. Track 3:[42:49] Yeah, maybe, but one, you know, after I did, after the leak, Sit down and kind of research what it's about. Hopefully Pete you have some more music based Comments about it, but one person I need to shout out here. The the handle is The letter Y Salvatore, there was a song meanings.com. [43:15] Reference from 2005 so this this is amazing it said one theory is the song is about Fox Mulder from the X-Files lines like there's no one up above us and with the Bureau Chiefs and the shrugging spies on the X-Files series Mulder is often working against the establishment as a sentiment in this song you've got no business in here brother Mulder is obsessed Pete from I'll go with UFO so lines like you see a light and then another this this song maybe it's about UFOs maybe it's about aliens I don't know this this was like this was a total head-scratcher for me not to say that I didn't like it but it was like what is this song about it wasn't beer and cheese I don't know it's not it's funny that you say that because one of the lines already is this song makes me want to sit in a pub and drink beer with my buddy. I didn't say eat cheese, but like, that's the vibe I got. Appreciating the musicianship on this recordTrack 2:[44:21] I mean, it's, um, there's, there's, okay. I could say a lot. I really liked this song a lot. I loved it. It. The riffing that Gore does with the vocals. I think there's a bridge part of all things being balanced where John Fahy's drums... I feel like every musician on this record, on this record, really shines. Like everybody shines. Gord Sinclair, I feel like, has always been really top-notch. That guy is fucking flawless. He's so underrated. Extremely underrated. Uh, when it comes to, you know, I, I just because I'm, you know, playing wise, obviously Gordoni, I mean, there's nothing you can say about that, but playing wise, Paul Langlois, am I saying? Langlois. Track 1:[45:25] Langlois. Track 2:[45:27] Um, and Rob Baker. I've always kind of gone back. I'm starting to appreciate the differences between those guys because they're two Diametrically different guitar players. I mean so different and and That happened on this album. Track 3:[45:43] Don't you? Track 2:[45:43] Oh, yeah more so really noticeable and I went down a bit of a rabbit hole this week I'll try not to go as deep as I went, but I told JD I was watching some live stuff and looking at Rob Baker's set up. [46:05] Paul Ling Hua, he always plays that black Les Paul, but Rob Baker plays that Strat, which I fucking love. And he's got something called Lace Sensors pickups in it, which not to get too technical for the listeners. They were apparently these were like standard issue Fender pickups from 90 from 85 to like 96 and then they just became too expensive. But they're really cool. The only shitty part is they look horrible on a guitar. They don't look it doesn't make it look like a Strat anyway. But he also plays a Paul Reed Smith, which I absolutely hate those guitars because, and JD I told you this, they're the Carlos Santana guitar and when they first became like available to the public so to speak or like mainstream people were able to buy them. I remember walking into a guitar center in the 90s and seeing one up on the wall that was like, it was like $19,000 or $20,000 it was like ridiculous and just going, and now can buy a PRS for like $1,800, $2,000, but it just turned me off and I fucking hate it. And if I'm Rob Baker, if I'm Rob, if you're listening, just don't ever play the fucking PRS, man. Get rid of it. Ditch it. Rob Baker's guitar choices and preferences[47:30] The telly's cool, but that strat is where it's at, man. [47:35] He does play Tele, and there's one other one I can't remember, but there's a great website, and I sadly have been on it more times than I can count. Oh, and he plays an SG, and I play an SG too. The website's called Equipboard.com, and it's got, they can pretty much look at any like, musician that's like, you know, quote, unquote, made it, so to speak, and find their rig, and they have the references, like, not just like, they don't just tell you, but they go, this is why we know that this is they're playing and they have a link to like a concert video, or a picture of them pointing out the gear, which is fucking cool. Track 1:[48:24] It's really cool. Yeah. I love, neither of you guys mentioned it, but I love Gord's voice in this song. He's doing a different sort of thing with his voice. It's lower register, softer I suppose, right? Because it is a soft song. But it's down, it's, you know, sorry you can't see my hand, but it's down here, like belly button wise. Uh is really quite quite uh effective on this song i agree with that jd when are you gonna fix your your belly button cam you're gonna get that going next next pod what's that my belly button cam Yeah, that took me a minute to get. Sorry. All right, track number six. Track number 6 is The Bastard. Appreciating the Percussion and Lyrical InsanityTrack 2:[56:45] Wow. This song starts with the they're not bongos, but there's some sort of kind of cool percussion. Track 3:[56:54] They're there. Yeah, it's some kind of yeah, yeah, yeah. Track 2:[56:59] There's a lot. Track 3:[57:00] It's fun. I love when they bring those in. Track 2:[57:02] Yeah, it's really cool. This song lyrically is fucking insane. There's a word in there called crepuscular? Track 1:[57:16] Yeah, what is that? Like, what does that even mean? Track 2:[57:19] Yeah, it means, um, adjective of resembling or relating to twilight. Yeah, I mean, gnarly shit and- Oh, gourd. Track 1:[57:31] Oh, man. Track 3:[57:36] Crepuscular rays, as the sun groomed the plane with crepuscular rays. Track 2:[57:41] There's a line in there about the Purple Italians, like it's just... Track 3:[57:47] Yeah, what is that referencing? I meant to look that up. I meant to look that up more and did not. Track 2:[57:52] Some weird-ass lyrics. I noticed something too. I love the line, the presaging pel-nel. Yeah. Track 3:[58:03] Yeah, the pre-stage pel-nel. Track 1:[58:05] Pre-stage and pel-nel. Track 3:[58:06] Yeah, that was my favorite. Track 2:[58:09] It's um i noticed that in addition to to to um gordon sinclair being so in the fucking zone on this song like a like a like a hypnotized fucking i don't know dude he's just he's a fucking machine on this song song. He, I watched a little bit of the Woodstock, Woodstock live show 99. And in this song, during Grace 2, which is what they opened up with, Gord starts testing out some of these lyrics to this song during Grace 2. Bird's Eye View, right? Track 1:[58:54] He talks about a bird's eye view of a bird's eye view. Yeah, yeah. So cool that you got to see that. Track 2:[59:01] Finished watching the whole thing. Track 1:[59:02] And you recognize it. Track 2:[59:04] Go ahead. Frustration with lack of guitars in "Grace II"Track 1:[59:10] Yeah, I went down to Rabbit Hole the other day and was just watching a whole bunch. I started with that when I texted you guys and was like, yeah, I'm watching it. And for the beginning of Grace II, it's all drums and Gord's voice, which I don't mind, but I want to hear those guitars, you know? And then suddenly it kicks in. Track 3:[59:29] The purple people, the purple Italian people, I just found it was an Italian mass protest movement to call for the resignation of a prime minister, one of their prime ministers. I feel like, I don't know, there must have been an earlier historical use of this because this is actually from 2009. So yeah, I'm curious. Well, I forgot to tell you guys that Gord is actually reference a mystic he could see in the future yes I wouldn't be surprised yes guys if there's any more sorry there's any more insight on the purple people somebody somebody let us know Tim at getting hit So I got an email. Mention of an email received regarding the purple peopleTrack 1:[1:00:19] Yeah. Got to get our $80 worth. Track 3:[1:00:25] I loved the pre-staging Pell-Mel. There's been a handful. I wish I would have started a list of the gourdisms that would be so fun to learn and reference, because that was so good. When I first heard him sing that, it was like, you know. Track 1:[1:00:42] What is pell-mell? Track 3:[1:00:44] Well, it just means like, it just means like absurd craziness or warning, like presaging means like warning together. Well, pell-mell means confusion or disorder or like a confused haste. So it's, presaging is, you know, the warning of a disorderly moment or the warning of something about to go down. That's kind of what I took. Track 1:[1:01:16] That's dire, I love it. Track 3:[1:01:19] Pre-saging, yeah, it's good. I mean, it's a loaded three words, basically. I think Pete hit on a lot of it, but this song to me kind of got us back in the car and down the road again. It was like driving, rocking, feeling, which I totally dug. The reference of all of this auger as well, you know, auger meaning like a fucking coring, drilling, coring into something and it's just this good rocking song. Track 1:[1:01:55] It's different though. Auger spelled one way is coring, but there's another, like to auger is to portend a good or bad outcome. Track 3:[1:02:08] Okay. Track 1:[1:02:11] So it's like, to pretend. Yeah. And I believe that's what it, like, it's all this auger's well, like, but, right, like, auger a well could mean digging a hole. But auger's well means pretending to, portending to good things are going to happen. Track 3:[1:02:37] Okay, okay. I just thought there were some beautiful lyrics in here. Also, I mean, all this augurs well or yeah, it's the The stanza never mind that pool in the mountains victory came and went on winged elephants I saw you all this augurs. Well, like you know, what? What is what is going on there? But it I thought it was likely this loaded very story specific Specific song without researching it, you know, I heard the lyrics Billy Sunday shout in Philadelphia for Christ Like who really is this song about did you look up Billy Sunday? Track 1:[1:03:15] Yeah. Track 3:[1:03:16] Yeah. I loved I loved reading about that This is like one of those that is one of those songs easy, right? Yeah, you barely you barely touch into on the research side and Realize that you know Billy Sunday was baseball player. Track 1:[1:03:33] I want to say a pitcher from like 1891. Track 3:[1:03:36] Yeah, he was this total this this I guess amazing pitcher And he played for chicago and boston and philly and which During those times you played for a team like your whole career, you know, you stayed in the city You you you became a presence with the team and the community and all that stuff if you did but this this this fellow William Ashley or Billy Sunday Sunday was his family name he he was like a total drunk ladies man and he moved from team to team to team and I think this from what I read the cops and the ladies got to know him really well And then after playing in Philly, he was witnessed to on the street and ultimately became a traveling preacher. [1:04:32] He went from standout pitcher to traveling preacher. And while he was preaching, teams even were soliciting him to come back and pitch. And during those days, if you made like 400 bucks a month playing professional baseball, that was like, a great salary. Yeah, I'm sure. And at one point, I read the Pittsburgh Pirates offered him $2,000 a month, and he still declined, and he still continued to be a traveling preacher. And his kind of schtick was talking about like the sex and alcohol lifestyle, from what I gathered, a lot about alcohol. And it was so much that when towns heard he was coming, they would just close up the bars until he went out. Literally, because he was so like, you know, he was his own prohibitionist. So it's all the personality. Track 2:[1:05:37] Yeah Thinking of that was the runner then I Don't know Like losses lay or some Forrest Gump. Track 1:[1:05:45] No. Track 2:[1:05:45] No, this is a reference from the hip Oh Terry Fox Harry Fox. Track 1:[1:05:50] Very fine. Yeah no he's a guy that ran across canada or something and he got close but he died he ran a marathon everyday he ran a marathon everyday on one leg yeah. Oh okay yeah cuz he and he was he was like. He was twenty one years old and he got cancer they removed his leg and he decided he was gonna run across canada and he started on the east coast he passed away thunder bay so he passed away about one third of the way through. Track 3:[1:06:21] Wow. Track 1:[1:06:22] Oh, it's fucking still, man. That's crazy. But it's like, every day his stump was like, like, euchred because he was wearing one of the, like, now, probably, somebody could do it on one of those, like, one of those spring legs, you know? Track 3:[1:06:37] Yeah, yeah. Track 1:[1:06:38] Yeah, but back in the day, he had, like, just an old school prosthetic leg, and it was crazy. Yeah. Track 3:[1:06:45] Pete, on this one, did you feel like, Did you ever get an inkling like, uh, perhaps this one was music first lyric second, or did you pick up at all on like the kind of background guitar riffing that was kind of over here? And yeah, it was like, I don't know, it sounded a little after thought ish, that guitar riffing, just kind of carrying you through it all worked. But this one, this one, I think compositionally. You know, song, story, Billy Sunday reference aside, which is amazing to dive into and learn about. I mean, I almost want to paint Billy Sunday or something with like on the pulpit with a baseball bat. That's cool. A fifth of whiskey in the other hand or something. But anyways, I felt like compositionally, the song writing-wise fits in the album. It just It just kind of fits in there, but also like, eh. Track 1:[1:07:46] You weren't big on it. Track 3:[1:07:49] No, it didn't grab me. It was like, OK, let's get back in the car. We're back on the road. Let's get through the song. It's rocking. Yeah, let's see what's next. Track 2:[1:07:56] I think at first it was like that, but then the song really like, because instrumentally, it's so fucking rich. Yeah, but like Gord, dude, again, Gord could match, pick the most complex composition that any composers have ever written. And I'm sure there is some fucking book that Gord Downie wrote lyrics in, somewhere floating around or shoved in his fucking basement, that lyrics. Track 3:[1:08:29] I would hope there's like, yeah, like 200. Track 2:[1:08:32] Yeah, he could fit to that. I mean, they probably just, yeah. So I feel you. I feel you. I feel you. Yeah. Track 1:[1:08:40] So let's move into track number seven, The Completist. Track 2:[1:08:44] I don't have a ton to say about this. I would say I really love this song. Again, this is a fade in from the previous track. Gord Sinclair again. fucking standout performance on this song. The percussive chops of the band at this point in the record. I mean, there are other songs that come up that you're just like, what the fuck? But they're not a bar band anymore. I mean, I know they still, but I still think like, I don't know if it was Phantom Power before, a record or two before, you see that kind of bar band thing still rearing its head a little bit, Like, this is just so far from that. These guys are fucking, they've really become superb musicians from the EP to now. Like, they've honed their fucking craft. And then the... Musicians' dedication to improvementTrack 1:[1:09:51] Road tested. Track 2:[1:09:52] Yeah, I mean, it's the road, it's the recording, it's the composition. But it's clear that like, every single musician in this band is like, I want to become better at my instrument. And I'm going to do this. It wasn't just like they just played a bunch, kept doing it, like, they clearly actively tried to become better musicians, as they were continuing. Like, I would put that to any of these fucking guys, if they're standing in front of me, and tell me, like, tell me I'm lying. Like, tell me I'm full of shit. And they would say no. Like, Whether it's, I mean, fucking Kirk Hammett for fuck's sake was taking lessons from Steve Vai when he was already in Metallica. Like, what does that tell you? You know, like, musicians want to become better and they, these guys clearly. The only thing I was gonna say was the woman singing, I thought it was Kate Fenner from before, but it's not, right? Track 1:[1:10:52] I don't know, I thought it was Kate Fenner. Track 2:[1:10:54] Apparently it's, um, Julie. Do I run Dorian, Julie Dorian, Dorian. Track 1:[1:11:02] Oh, Julie Dorian. Track 2:[1:11:03] Okay. Track 1:[1:11:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Track 2:[1:11:05] But I, and this is just, you know, I want to say this earlier, Tim, but I want to say that I did do a little research on Kate Fenner and her, um, her label that she's signed to is called UFO music. So that's awesome. Track 1:[1:11:19] Oh, you must love that. Track 2:[1:11:20] I do. Track 3:[1:11:22] You just stole my thunder for Toronto 4. We'll get there. Track 2:[1:11:28] I thought the lyrics in the song were beautiful. It was fucking, the beautiful fucking lyrics. Amazingly beautiful. Track 1:[1:11:35] Yeah. Yeah. Track 3:[1:11:37] Well, I'll have to look into Julie Dorian. I had not found her. And we'll get to it, but we haven't talked much about Kate Fenner, nor who we mentioned earlier. Chris Brown. The fellow on keys, Chris Brown. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, this song to complete us, I felt like it was like at first it was kind of, OK, we're already back to a slowdown. Like, it felt a little bit of a chug placement-wise in the album, it's a beautiful song. You know, I just didn't, it kind of left me hanging a little bit. Like, it didn't grab me and shake me around or rattle me around or anything like that. It felt like it could have been an ender. Like, it felt like, is this the end of the album? I mean, this could be the end of an album, so that's good. Track 1:[1:12:29] Well, it's the end of side one, if you're thinking. Oh, maybe. LPs. Track 3:[1:12:36] Yeah, yeah, okay, okay. Track 1:[1:12:37] And that would make sense with our next song too, Freak Turbulence, opening side two with a banger, right? Track 3:[1:12:44] Yeah, big time. I mean, this is like we're alive again. We're back in the driver's seat or the passenger's seat. Like we have this backup singing again. I think this was Kate Fenner at this time. I'm not sure. Between the two. I don't know enough of Julie's voice to distinguish between the two. Track 1:[1:13:06] There are definitely people out there that will tell us for sure. Track 3:[1:13:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm gonna look it up because I think I got Kate Fenner down. I mean, yes, yeah, yeah. So back to the song though, there's a comedy factor here, am I wrong? Like, this is so much about Gord being afraid to fly or not liking flying or, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's all this talk about. I don't know, it feels lighter and more fun than usual. Track 1:[1:13:39] Like, did the captain just say this? Like, did the captain just say, like? Track 3:[1:13:45] Well, we'll land in less than 10 minutes. Or he says, or unless. Did he say unless or less? Yeah, he's afraid. You know, I think this is the song that guys. Were had to fly back to Canada from the US because originally this album Was to be recorded on a moving locomotive train. Track 1:[1:14:11] They talked about doing that. Yes I don't know how that would have ever happened. Track 3:[1:14:15] No shit. What a fucking cool idea I mean imagine that Pete moving locomotive with all the sounds and shakes and rattles I mean maybe maybe for a song but a whole album yeah with some serious that was some serious weed smoking yeah I'm up with that idea you know we should do guys we should fly back down to Memphis take the train take the train to LA and record the home anyways this this is a this was kind of a fun song it was a little more jovial I dug it there's a There's a weird, PeepeePie caught this, there's some weird guitar feedback, like the last 10 seconds or so, which made the song feel kind of ominous, or maybe the Freak Turbulence was like the plane going down, I don't know. It was funny in that regard, it was like a total head-scratcher, but this one I kind of dug. Track 2:[1:15:15] Oh, I dug this one, man, there's a line in there that really stuck with me, it's Satan Holding back hands, our nose and our chin. Track 3:[1:15:22] Yeah, yeah. Track 2:[1:15:24] I love that. There's a really, I think, the mix, there was a lot of moments where I wrote down, this is probably the first time I've said it, but it's written on a ton of songs, the mix on this song, how they mix this song with the instruments, like the levels of all the instruments, it's just so, it really, you know, it makes the fucking song. It makes this song so fucking cool the vocals build, Yeah, I really, you know, I'll rather than to, I'll save my, you know, I'll yield my time only because I have some, some hefty shit to say about some stuff coming up. But I, this song made me run, like when this song came on and I was going on some runs, I definitely put it into a higher gear with this song. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. Track 3:[1:16:20] Yeah. Yeah. Especially after the completed, you know, transitioning into this one. It's like, yes, OK, here we go again. This is definitely the if it's side two, it definitely is the the side one. Get us going again. "Sharks" - a monotonous but intriguing song[1:16:36] Sharks, can I go? Sharks. Yeah. This one kind of lazes along for me. It's got a few interesting bridges, but it's kind of monotonous, but not not. I'm not saying that in a negative way. It's almost like, it's almost got this head down, shoegazy kind of feel, you know? Then at the three minute mark, there's this like heavy tom kind of bass kind of transition in there. It's the bass guitar is like kind of all over the neck for just a brief second, but you know, it's one of, the, this song is, it has what I enjoyed because they they're starting to do this more because they're all just accelerating as musicians is that it has like well over a minute of music the last portion of it is just like great music carrying you through rather than singing until like the last seconds or giving like seven seconds at the end or what have you so it's. [1:17:42] It was kind of a fun song in that way. It just felt different than the rest, but also worked, you know, positively. Track 2:[1:17:52] I love, this is another fade in from the previous track, which I love, that they're doing that, making it very concept-y. I love the line in there about the Mariana's Trench. That's just fucking cool. It's such a, it's always been a fascination of mine, probably since I saw fucking, what was the name of that movie? Was that Harris? I don't know. I thought it was a James Cameron movie for Christ's sake, it was huge. The Abyss. The Abyss. Oh, The Abyss. The Abyss was in Maria's Trench. Track 1:[1:18:29] Right, right, right, right. Track 2:[1:18:32] But yeah, I mean, the big standout for me here is Rob Baker's guitar is just fucking insanity. He does these really cool arpeggios in the song. And the coolest thing for me was, I was like, what's that fucking effect on this guitar? And I was like, I wrote this down early on, I was like, he's got a, like a delay on the guitar, but not a delay. So it's going bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. It's so, the delay time is so small that you can't really hear it like a repetitive delay. It's just, when you put it down almost to zero, it just has this cool, and then I look on no shit by the time I found that website and he's got a Line 6 DL4 delay pedal that no doubt he was using on this fucking song. It just made me feel cool because I was like, my ears still work after all these years. But I fucking love it. If I didn't, I didn't think there was a song that could rival Tiger the Lion and I still don't think it beats it but it's pretty up there and that's fucking Toronto 4. An analysis of the opening guitar arpeggiosTrack 1:[1:26:42] Talk to me. Talk to me. Track 2:[1:26:44] I mean, the way it opens with the, like, the record static. Yep. Again, Rob Baker's doing these weird arpeggios, like he, like, it's kind of like a falling guitar, like he goes from a, like a, it's a D chord or whatever the hell, the octave, than the chord, then the seventh, then the diminished. Makes it feel really sad. It's just, or like, kind of sad and mysterious, and it's floating. It's like all the echo-y shit that there's, I don't know if it's Kate Fenner on this. It is. It is? Okay. Track 3:[1:27:26] Yeah. Track 2:[1:27:27] Yeah. The way that the, I don't know if it's like he's using mallets or what, but Johnny Fay is like coming in with the cymbals with these really soft mallets that like kind of give it like a gong sound to make it really super dramatic but the songs it's fucking awesome I mean I was like what it was weird because this was a song that early on I would get through the first nine tracks because I was doing like shorter runs when I would take it out and I didn't get to like Toronto for and then the first time I heard it I was like what in the fuck the surf tone on guitar is just... It's a cool jam dude. It's cool as fuck. A lot of Pink Floyd, I feel, influence on there. Track 3:[1:28:18] I agree with all that. I felt like the percussions on this, the drums on this one, had sort of this metronome, just more of a... I don't know. Track 2:[1:28:28] You do the panning on the left to right? Track 3:[1:28:31] Yeah, like the pace of the percussion really, to me, held the song like all the way through and was perfect. I mean, I often hone in on drum stuff like you do guitar and I felt like that was just, I don't know, this song is, it starts slow, it's emotional, it kind of feels like apologetic you know also feels like i don't know familiar maybe it's like the mention of Vesuvius as a metaphor for like family and stresses and breakups and i don't know the The song was just, it's pretty jam packed. I didn't. Look big into the background on lyrics or story or any of that, you know, I just questioned, which I said to JD like a week ago, I was like, why the hell Toronto four? Are there three other Toronto songs? Or what is what is that about? Track 1:[1:29:29] So if anybody knows, my only guess is, like my, as far as just guesswork, is might be, it might have been the fourth run, you know, it might have been the fourth take, like it's Sometimes you use the studio parlance to come up with the title of a song that you can't quite name. Track 3:[1:29:49] Yeah. Track 1:[1:29:50] Well, this is a great, it's a great song, and you're right, you nailed it on the head when you talk about family. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely familial. It's, you know, it's about the matriarch of his family, his grandmother, holding things up. And that what are the first the first lyrics are? Absolutely. They slay me and I can't recall them at the moment. Track 3:[1:30:17] You know, you were the rock plug for us all. Did you know you were the conduit of Vesuvius? You were far more unifying than, you know, I'm not a judge of suitable, but you almost had it all. I mean, if that's about his grandma being the what a tribute, the rock plug for their family. I mean rock plug is definitely a volcanic reference of you know a rock holding the mountain together before the magma just blows it apart so it's right fucking cool pretty pretty yeah I mean it's this this one maybe has the simplest lyrics that we've seen in a while. [1:30:59] It's it's a beautiful song. So Kate Fenner on this one just to touch on her because I Think we've heard her before although. I only found that she To recorded and toured for this album, but man, she's she's got this How do you describe her voice? I think it's just gorgeous. I think it's yeah, it's It's just, it's, it's, it's lovely. I, she, she, somebody described her as less, a lusty alternative to a Joni Mitchell ish sound. Like all of that is, is true. So she's got her own solo stuff. She's got, as Pete mentioned, UFO Records is her label. She's got this new album out that I touched on briefly over the weekend. It's it's pretty she's got a beautiful voice like if she ever tours and we get a chance to just Go and any of us hear her perform. I'm sure it would be worth it. She's got a dreamy voice So yeah, great great addition to me, too I don't know if you saw this tour JD, but what she did she yeah, do you recall her on stage or yeah? Track 1:[1:32:09] Because it was it was strange because both Chris Brown and her were on stage with them the whole time and that was It was just it was sort of a strange look because up until that point It had been the five of the month's age. Track 3:[1:32:20] Mm-hmm. Track 1:[1:32:20] That was it. And so this you know, it changed the dynamic for sure and I'll be the first to tell you that when this record dropped I Liked it But I didn't love it. But now 20 years later. Yeah, I fucking love this record Yeah, I can listen to this record at any time like yeah, yeah top to bottom. Okay, okay, Now let's go toward the bottom and talk about Wild Mountain Honey, dude. Track 3:[1:32:52] I love this one. So I'm taking I'm taking on this one. Mr Okay, you can you can fill in do it Yeah, like this this to me I heard Pink Floyd I heard Jerry Garcia of guitar effects Like I I heard like fish. I don't know like this song to me. They even the the title is is different, like this one was just a little bit different there. You know, it's the drums are soft, but they can sound kind of angry. This is one of the songs on the album, you know, the first time listening it through. Or I thought, OK, I need to find this one live and check it out because I'm sure it gets played harder and louder, maybe faster. [1:33:43] There's just really good chord changing and bridges and guitar riffs and it feels a little bit patched or contrived at the end you know I was hoping for like a big finish the first time I heard this one because it really grabbed me it made it just this to me was like hip fans who have seen the band play live a a bunch. Probably love this one live. You know, this one just, it hit some marks for me with going, with going after, like, followers of other bands who I knew probably in the same summer saw Grateful Dead play it or saw Phish play and saw the Tragically Hit play. Like a lot of, you know, A lot of times when I experience bands playing live over the course of a summer, it kind of, you know, dictates that summer. Like, you think back to that summer and you're like, oh, that's when I went to X Festival or that's when I saw 8Bandplay a couple times. The Papa Roach show. Yeah, like that's, yeah, definitely the Papa Roach show. But no, this one was, This kind of centered me back into the seat of the Tragically Hip. I really dug it. I ended up listening to it a handful of times by itself. Track 1:[1:35:08] Oh wow! Cool. Track 3:[1:35:11] Probably not a single though, right? Track 1:[1:35:13] Not a single, nope. Track 3:[1:35:14] Yeah, every once in a while they have a song that's not a single that's a little bit off character that I dig and this is one of those. Rhythms and Unique Drum Hits in "Wild Mountain Honey"Track 2:[1:35:23] I thought that I mean the song it's funny ironically it starts out like wild mountain honey it begins like the name does Soft like wild mountain honey, and it creeps up on you like a whiskey, and it fucking destroys. Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, I think It's funny because I remember looking for the lyrics online and realized there's a Steve Miller song called why I'm not many as well But when I saw the title of this, I thought of the Peach Boys song, Wild Honey, which neither of those examples are even close to this song. But what I got from it was, I fucking love the rhythms in this fucking, the drums in the rhythms. The drum hits in this fucking song are so cool and they're so unique and they don't sound like another band. Like there's some songs that, like I mentioned, some Wilco stuff earlier, there's other songs from other hip records where it's like they're doing a drum hit or a drum fill and you're like, yeah, that's the same drum fill that this band did on this song and that's been, this is completely fucking different. And it's so fucking cool. So unique, the rhythms in the song. [1:36:43] There's a weird keyboard or flute effect in the background going down, it was really faint and hard to pick up. I'm pretty sure it was a keyboard, but it could have been some sort of setting, but I love the line, I don't want to put another thought in my head, I just thought that was so fucking cool towards the end. And then the song, the solo starts before, but the part at about 3 minutes 30 seconds of the guitar soloer. Just, I don't know, dude. I hope I run into him. Track 3:[1:37:18] That carries it to the end, right? Track 2:[1:37:22] It does. Yeah. I want to run into Rob Baker at a 7-Eleven or something. Him buying a Slurpee and me already up front and being like, hey, man, let me get this guy's Slurpee and I'll pay for it or something. Just be like, alright, man. Track 1:[1:37:41] What a gentleman you are. Track 2:[1:37:42] I want to be that guy. It's weir

TranscriptTrack 1:[0:00] Welcome to getting hip to the hip. I'm JD. I'm here as always with Pete and. [0:06] Tim How are you fellas doing this fine day? Track 3:[0:10] Doing great doing great Just getting it going and excited to be here and see a couple of my favorite dudes over the interwebs. Track 2:[0:19] I Am doing supercalifragilisticexpialidocious to fucking discuss this fucking record Oh, wow. Track 3:[0:27] Oh, boy. Track 2:[0:28] Oh, boy. Track 3:[0:29] So... Fasten your seatbelts, folks. Track 1:[0:31] Fasten your seatbelts, folks. Track 2:[0:32] What does that mean? Spoons, plural. Spoons full of sugar. Not just fucking... Not just one. Track 1:[0:39] The Disney references are just rolling out. Track 3:[0:41] Jeez. Track 1:[0:44] Well, we're here today to talk about the 2000 release, June 2000, the seventh studio record by seminal Canadian rock band The Tragically Hip. Music at work. Before we go into our vaunted segment of song by song, let's just get a general sense of what you guys thought of this record. Where you listened to it, what you were exposed to, how it formed over time. What do you think there, Pete? Track 2:[1:21] I'll be brief, because I want to really dive into the songs, too, but I will say, I listened to this record at work. Well, I was at my computer. Come on, Tim, did you want that one? Were you waiting to use that one? Track 3:[1:42] No, it was your turn. It was your turn. A lot of listeners right now are like, oh my god, we're out of here. Track 2:[1:52] Listen to it in the car. The sound system in the car made it really pop. But I will say, probably the best place to listen to it was on runs. It was just... I love the record. I really, really enjoyed this record profusely. So I'll say that. I'll leave it there. All right. Track 1:[2:21] Mr. Leiden. Track 3:[2:22] Yeah, so I listened to this. I had a bunch of headphone-based physical therapy the past week, and I pretty much had it on for all of that, which was very much focused movement and definitely could consider audio. And it was it was pretty good. It took me back to, I think, mostly to Live Between Us, like if we're gonna go apples to apples or apples and oranges throughout their discography thus far, for many reasons. And there's some songs on here I really like a lot. There's a couple that I thought were pretty different, like definitely a step out than past albums. And yeah, at one point I thought this might be my favorite so far in our work to get to this point. I thought this might be one of my favorite albums so far, but I'm still questioning it. I'm still thinking that there might be another one out there in the future that I just I Give you know nine point five two or whatever. Album Rating and Discussion on Critics' OpinionsTrack 1:[3:35] It might be Gotcha Yeah, this was rated relatively low by all music and what? Track 3:[3:43] Big fucking surprise They're like the professor that doesn't give a is you know, yeah, yeah negative five out of five I I have a little bit of a vibe with that, but I understand sometimes there's a great piece of work out there that still doesn't get the accolades it deserves, and that happens so often. Track 1:[4:06] Yeah. Well, shall we get into it? Track 3:[4:10] Yeah. Track 2:[4:12] What did they give it, by the way, J.D.? I'm curious. Track 1:[4:14] Three out of five. Track 3:[4:15] Three, right? Three out of five. So just some quick research on the title that I found of the album, Music at Work. So from what I read, it's poking fun at a rock station in Canada, 100.5 FM. Yeah. E-Zed Rock or Easy Rock, whichever. Track 4:[4:38] You went with Zed first. You're so Canadian. Oh my God. So Canadian. Track 3:[4:45] Music at Work was their tagline, you know. It was like, imagine this kind of 80s looking logo in essence like a corporatized Van Halen Firebird Camaro looking Easy Rock 100.5 FM and underneath at music at work. That makes sense. But I thought maybe, yeah, I thought maybe the hip tagging, you know, taking this tagline was perhaps their, I guess, you know, maybe even, I think it was their stab at back at clear channel. I thought like Like, these guys, yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought these guys are still talking. Track 2:[5:36] Was that a Clear Channel station? Track 3:[5:38] Rock and roll. Track 2:[5:39] I'm sure they were. Track 3:[5:40] Dude. Track 1:[5:41] It's a heavy format. Track 3:[5:42] I didn't look it up, but if you look at everything about it, I'm sure it is. Track 2:[5:48] And at that time, dude, nowadays it's like, it's not even a competition. Like Clear Channel owns the Airwaves, but I remember at that time it was like, you were We were starting to realize that every station was a clear channel station. Track 1:[6:02] Yeah. Yeah. Track 3:[6:04] Yeah. So, that was kind of some brief history on the album title. The first song, you know, title track, album name. The First Single from the RecordTrack 1:[6:40] You I think it's a, little bit of a, a That chives. Yeah, it was the first single from the record too. So okay. Yeah, it dropped a couple weeks before the record came out. Track 2:[7:33] Well, not to correct Tim, but I'm going to do it. Do it. It is not the title track. Ah, yes. The name of the track is actually my music at work. Yeah, interesting. And I didn't... No, no, no. Track 3:[7:54] I was really close, man. Track 2:[7:56] You were close, too. Track 3:[7:58] You know, okay. The influence of the... The Groove and Tightness of the New RecordTrack 2:[8:07] I mean, if I picture myself as I have now, listen, have listened to the previous hip records, anticipating this new record coming out, hearing this first track on this new record and just like putting it on volume up, start my car, light my cigarette, open my Red Bull, whatever the fuck I was doing in the year 2000. And just fucking wow. I mean, they must have just been like, fuck yes. I mean, this song, it was, I wrote this down. This is one of the things I wrote down in the notes. The song was born in the pocket. Like when you talk about when you're in the pocket, musically, I think we all know what that means. I'm sure most of the listeners know what it means. But it's just, it's in the pocket. It's just the groove, the rhythm, the fucking instruments, everything is just fucking tight and it fits, gourd sounds fucking great. It's a great build after the La La La with the soft guitar. Oh God, I've got to eventually get there. Track 3:[9:29] I'll just quickly add in there the La La La. Track 2:[9:30] Johnny Cain? Track 3:[9:31] Okay, go, go, go. Track 2:[9:32] Go ahead. No, no. You go ahead. Track 3:[9:35] I was going to fill in for you. The La La La part for this one, I mean that was new. We haven't had La La La's yet in soft. No, not really. Right. Track 2:[9:42] No, no, yeah But but Johnny Johnny Faye. Yeah drummer. Yeah Really just fucking builds it into where the song you know starts to go at that point and then there's a There's a Lord of the Rings reference in there. I think I feel like it is I took it as what cuz he says middle of the earth. Ah Which I'm always My record store that I grew up going to in down in California, now out of business, was called Middle Earth. And it was a fucking great record store. This is the type of record store where dollars to fucking donuts, man. If you were there in the 90s, they were like, if you went up to the front and asked this guy Larry for a recommendation, he would have fucking slipped you a hip record. Hands down. I was just too scared to fucking go up to Larry cause he was cool. Larry had a picture of David Bowie where David Bowie was smiling, not Larry. Track 1:[10:47] Wow. Track 2:[10:48] Like that goes to show you how cool fucking Larry was. Track 3:[10:51] You know what? I can't tell you how many. Stories I've heard about like interviews with artists who had that record store They went to growing up and how walking up to the clerk whoever was working was like the most intimidating thing Like you like you like so many artists would walk I've read it about it so many times Walking a record store with like kind of tail between your legs and you're afraid to purchase what you've picked For being ridiculed or anything, right? It's just it was like the most I mean think about it back You know in the 80s or 70s or 90s like going to Tower Records or wherever you go and grabbing that Item and walking up to this like hipper than thou person Clerk and trying to make over just yeah Yeah, this was before that it was common where people had like, you know Sleeves of tattoos and like ear and nose piercings like you saw somebody up there at the front with a fucking a bar through the nose a two sleeves of tattoos, and green hair. Track 2:[11:56] Everybody's got fucking green hair nowadays, right? And you're just like. Track 1:[12:00] Makes me sick. Track 2:[12:01] No, but you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, my nephew's got green hair for crying out loud. But like, I don't give a shit, you know, I'm telling my nephew what I'm listening to, but if, you know, back in the 90s, I walked up to the counter and saw somebody like that, that I was like dude I am not bringing up anything that's on the radio right yeah that's so cool that's so cool that you had this this tragically hip frame of reference from back in the record store days I mean I completely don't have that I had a bumper sticker in college you know of my apartment complex neighbor so. The Second Song: Messy and IncoherentTrack 3:[19:00] Yeah. Track 2:[19:00] Do you want to? I don't know. I mean, I'm ready to fucking blow up in there. You know what I'm saying? Okay. The fucking the second song. I mean, it's hard to top this second song. I mean, it is when I first heard it. I loved how it faded in from the first track. And then he just starts saying this is what the fuck is Tiger the Lion? Track 1:[19:30] I don't. Track 2:[19:30] I'm just saying the first time I heard it, right. And I did my research on it, which I kind of regret. I gotta stop looking at lyrics. Once I stopped looking at lyrics, these songs really open up for me. Track 1:[19:41] You can't stop though. It's gorg, right? Like, you know? Track 2:[19:45] No, but he eventually started listening to them and internalizing them, which is better for me than reading them. Either way, this fucking song, it just opens up so messy and incoherent and I'm like, what the fuck? I mean, again, putting myself in the position of a hit fan when they hear this for the first time. They're like, is this gorgeous going off on his fucking, you know, he wrote some crazy poetry and he's just, you know, free-forming it right now. What's he doing? You know, but the The instrumentation on it, it's so well thought out. Track 4:[20:24] Right? It's... Track 2:[20:26] I love how, because for me as a musician, my writing style is pretty incoherent. A lot of people say, like, lyrics wise, my shit doesn't make sense, which is, you know, it's not like I'm going for it, but it's just, it is what it is. But the John Cage quote? Track 3:[20:45] Yeah. Track 2:[20:46] Oh, fuck. I mean, I'm a huge John Cage, but just all about who that guy was as an individual who brought his brain to art and music. There's a melodic drop down, the purpose is not unique. I just, I don't know, dude, I did a little bit of research on the meaning of the song about it being like a reference to fighter pilots. Did you get that too, Tim? Track 3:[21:21] Yep, yep, yep. Big time. There's been so many World War II references that I just, you know, I instantly went to that, which I have a emotional family connection to World War II, so that hits heavy for me. Track 2:[21:36] Two-way radio, yeah. But, uh, this, line... JD, I thought of you when I read this. But not to get order from chaos. Tell you how to create simply wait to your life like, like, there's, there, there is no order. Yeah, there's no other shoe that were, you know, and I don't know, dude, this fucking song is, I still can't fucking and unwrap it and make sense of it. It's just a fucking banger. Yeah. What a song. Living in the Music: Appreciating Art without Analyzing LyricsTrack 3:[22:15] I mean, Pete, as a, maybe you can clarify a little bit for me, as a songwriter, you, when this one came on and you listened through it and you say that you, sometimes you don't want to research lyrics just so you can live in it in your head as much as possible, right? Is that kind of your sentiment? Right? Track 2:[22:34] I mean, I think, I think the lyrics, Because I think that what you, for me, this is me personally, what I tend to do is, is rather than physically listen to the song, which is what the medium is meant to do for listening, I'm reading what I'm listening to. And so it starts to, I start to make judgment upon what I'm listening to based on what I'm reading. Which is never like there's so many weird fucking lyrics in this fucking record And I'm sure we can talk about it till the cows come home Yeah But it did me it did more damage for me in the beginning because it was like I'm not fucking getting this I'm not getting this and then I just was like, okay I put the lyrics down and then I just started to listen to it incessantly. Okay, this shit's fucking making sense. Okay. Got it and then not to Not to bury the lead, but I mean if you don't get the fucking Comfortably Numb, Rob Baker literally Channeling the fucking David Gilmour in this fucking song. I mean What do you I mean, what are we doing here? There's one drop where it doesn't it doesn't go down to the next chord that you just feel like it's like going to country, but it doesn't go there and it's just... [24:01] Yeah, his guitar tone, everything about it. He's using the Strat on this. [24:06] Fucking it's great song. Sorry. Yeah. Amazing song. Track 3:[24:10] For me to go from music at work to this was like, whoa, this is, you know, if this is second gear for taking off in the car, and it's like, what did our car just change into? Because the song is, Because the song is its own beast. Man, me and my dad jokes, dad puns, tiger, the lion. So I mean, this is the longest song on the album. It's 5 and 1 1⁄2 minutes. And I love songs that can hit 5, 6, 7 minute mark, and you don't even know they're that long. Track 1:[24:47] Yeah. Track 3:[24:48] Like sometimes you hear a song, and you're like, god damn, These guys just wanted this to be the longest song ever, and they succeeded. But this one, it's very, no, it doesn't feel that long. And I think, Pete, you touched on most of it. But the themes, I guess I should say, I don't read the lyrics or look into the lyrics until I've listened to one of these albums in great length or many times. So I try not to pay attention to the lyrics. If I'm listening to it in the car and I'm at a stop for too long, then I can actually hit the whatever on Spotify to make the lyrics pop up. I'll check it out for a minute. But I try to live in my head for as long as possible, I think, kind of like you, Pete, to just get deep into the song. [25:44] The John Cage references. I mean, there's so much in this song in both that theme and kind of World War II themes, but the kind of two big takeaways for me were this song is about challenging the listener and society and anyone to appreciate, like, nature, art in life, or just art, or like literature or whatever it might be. And if you live your life without recognizing any art form, then you're like a fucking robot, you know? That's kind of, that's what the song was about to me in that regard, the John Cage regard and all of that. The his radio goes silent, you know that like I imagined this as like World War two airplane Pilot, you know the his engines destroyed And he's just falling from the sky, you know, like and stops working. This is where my head my engine stops working You have this like last bit of life where you hear the wind the radio stops working You know, you're on your way down. That's kind of where I went with. Track 1:[27:03] Whoa, that's heavy, man. Introduction and Researching Band MembersTrack 3:[27:04] Yeah, that's kind of how it felt to me. Okay, so I did some research around who else is playing with this band. Because we've talked about, at least the past album, I've been talking about, you know, who's that on backup singing blah blah blah blah blah. Right. So with this, I guess I would have talked about this at the beginning, but with this song we have a guy named Chris Brown from Toronto on keys, right? So he toured, He recorded and toured with the band with this album. He came from a band or was in a band called, Bourbon Tabernacle Choir. Yep, you got it. And from the 80s and 90s, which I heard of that, man. Yeah, which I didn't know an ounce about until I kind of did this research. So finally, I was making some headway with this album to hear who else we have contributing, which is an obvious impact to me as a listener to hear kind of extra elements going on. But this song, man, it could be its own album. That's what I thought. Like this song, this song on a 7-inch on one side, like it's hand me that. I'll pay 20 bucks for it. Like let's go. It's fucking that good. Track 1:[28:30] Yeah, I agree. Track 3:[28:32] Lake Fever, the next one. This is where I was like, okay, maybe we're shifting gears into like this perfect love song or forlorn love or is this a song about loss or remembrance or you know what is this what is this going on there's amazing prose within this song like was the brief dude seriously i knew pete was just like i knew his heart was melting for this It was probably driving down, you know, here's Pete, everybody in Spain, in his awesome vehicle. I don't even know what it is, and I don't want to know until I visit him someday, so no spoilers, J.D. But here's Pete in his awesome vehicle driving down some coastal highway in fucking Spain. This is a dude from the LBC, right? And this song comes on, and there's tears coming from Pete's face on this beautiful sunny day. It's like, I, I, you know, I'm, I'm hearing this song during fucking physical therapy. Therapy just gone. [29:42] Is this a wedding song or is it a funeral song or do I want this at my wake or do I play this for Amy on her next anniversary? Like what the fuck is this emotional song going on in place three after my music at work and after Tiger the Lion we have this Lake Fever. It's like what the hell so yeah it was this you know this this is that third gear song where i'm like okay, let's see let's see where this is gonna go what's this about is it oh yeah okay maybe it is about the cholera outbreak in toronto in 1834 oh fuck god damn it okay that's what it's about guess i'm I'm not playing at my anniversary. No, not playing at next April 14th, honey. Track 1:[30:38] But it's more than that because the protagonist is regaling his potential lover with that story. Like the song isn't necessarily about like fever. It's like this couple are walking in the woods about to go, you know, have sex. And he's so nervous that he's trying to like, you know, talk to this girl and he's telling her, well, there was this time in Toronto that there was a sewer back up and cholera got in the way and it went all the way up to Ottawa and near Kingston and it was terrible, many people died and she's just like, hurry, just hurry. Just Coital Fury, you know, like, yeah, that wine, man. Track 2:[31:26] Fuck, it's good. Dude, you know, I tell you, it's it's funny because I think it's just the Canadian. I mean, last week, Tim and I both heard the rush in fireworks for last week's a record but you know I started to hear the first thing I heard and now I like don't hear it at all but the first thing I heard with this song was the percussion feeling very once again very Alanis, right wow but yeah put that all kind of behind it's kind of all in the past dude the glockenspiel which I think they're using and like the keyboard effect over when he says the the word courage is I'm just you're right Tim I'm driving down the fucking coast in the mountainous windy roads of Malaga Spain and just fucking crying with my wind blowing, my air blowing in the wind. Cigarette out the window, the arm just like, Oh, just fucking loving this. [32:42] We're going to get into it a little bit more, because I because there's a there's a couple of songs on this record. And I remember I don't know what record it was, oh, it was, was Troll Dan House that I referred to as the Tragically Hips Xerope. Track 1:[33:01] Yes. Track 3:[33:02] Right, right. Track 2:[33:05] But, do you know what this record is? Track 1:[33:07] Yeah. Track 2:[33:07] And it's funny because this record actually came out before the record I'm going to reference. And I'll tell you why. Track 1:[33:14] All right, hit me. Track 2:[33:15] This is fucking the Tragically Hips Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. All of the fucking instrumentation on it, all the pianos, the echoey pianos, a lot of the guitars. It's so fucking Wilco, man. And so I started thinking to myself, well, you know, what, what the fuck did, what, you know, what do we, well, I'll get into it, I'll get into the next one. Track 1:[33:44] We'll go. Give her. Track 2:[33:46] Yeah, we're going to put it down. So this song, there's a line in there saying the United States of ricochet. Something something happy in way. You know what I'm talking about, JD? Track 1:[34:02] I don't know the lyric offhand though, sorry. Track 2:[34:04] Great fucking line. And I'm getting very like, ashes of American flags like references to because I feel like I feel like Gord was really, um, getting, like, a lot of the shit that he focused on was the, God, the phrase, the term I'm trying to look for, like the plight of Canadians. Okay. Track 3:[34:30] I got it. I got it here if you want me to read it. Track 2:[34:33] Yeah, you want to read it, Tim? Track 3:[34:35] Yeah, it's just United States of Ricochet from the Boardwalk to the Appian Way, which I... From the Boardwalk to the Appian Way, yeah, that's what I'm looking for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Track 2:[34:42] Diamond Files, Corporate Wraves, you know. So he's, I feel like up until this point, he's made a lot of references to not just the indigenous folks up north, in terms of, you know, what he's talked about, and what I know he's eventually going to talk more about. But I started to think like, God, what other band do I know that did that? And like, that's kind of where Wilco went, you know, they had Uncle Tupelo and then AM, which was their first record. And being there were kind of like a soft watered down version of, of that country vibe of Uncle Tupelo. And then when they hit Yankee Hotel, it was like, Whoa, what the fuck is this? This is not the same band. I remember hearing and I got the same vibe. And so I, anyway, I Googled and started doing a little research, come to find out. So I read Jeff Tweedie's. Memoir, which is a great book, you'll get through it in a day, man. It's called Let's Go So We Can Get Back. And he references them on tour with Tragically Hip during the Another Roadside Attraction tour. Track 1:[36:03] That's right. The third one. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Wilco's Similarities to Other Bands and Songwriting InfluencesTrack 2:[36:07] Yeah. And just this record came out a year before Yankee Hotel. So I don't know what if they were trading demos back and forth or they were playing music together on Tour and but fuck man. I mean so many similarities with this record and that record interest so many Do you feel you might catch my drift here? Track 3:[36:32] But do you feel like? When you hear other bands and are reminded of Wilco do you feel like Wilco has just borrowed so much from other bands or do you feel like I'm not gonna we're not going to turn this into a Wilco podcast by the way or do you feel like Wilco like really do you feel like Wilco just absolutely stand on their own as songwriters because I mean that's there that's like to me songwriting music you know what I mean yeah I know what you mean um it's a good question and I'll answer it as short as possible because I think This is something you could fucking have a garage with a, you know, half ounce and fucking go on forever. Track 2:[37:17] But I think Jeff Tweedy is an amazing songwriter, and he'd probably be the first one to admit that they've taken so much from other people. But I think that that band, especially when they went in, their record, two records after they did Yankee Hotel was a record called Sky Blue Sky. When they really got into that, they were just like... They were at the top of their fucking game. and they they they knew how to um, but it's It's hard to say man. I mean It's a great question tim because I you could say the same for Tragically him who are they both big time? Track 3:[38:05] Yeah, we've had so many references. Track 2:[38:07] I don't think I don't think rob baker would he be the last person to say he wasn't fucking fucking playing the exact notes that Gilmore played on fucking comfortably on that guitar solo or on Tiger the Lion. But it's not like you're saying, oh, you're stealing. It's like, it's an homage. It's also working it into a song that is not that song is, you know, you do it all. I've been writing a tune this week that is a is a indie rock tune adapted from the fucking Opening theme of the one of the Legend of Zelda songs. So cool. And am I stealing from Koji Kondo? Yes but It's in so I look at it more as an inspiration. Track 3:[38:54] Well, I mean they I mean all all artists, you know are inspired from every direction I just I don't I don't want to get into it too deep. Track 1:[39:01] I just went from no Writers I think good songwriters Make it almost Like a magician, you know, like a good songwriter. You don't see the sleight of hand. You don't see the Palming you don't see it like they're absolute pros and they stand on their own But of course you can't help but be affected by what you are exposed to and what you enjoy, you know You can't help it. Track 2:[39:34] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and JD, you're right when you say that, because there was something that I put down, and I think I sent it to you, but I put this down about a month and a half ago, and there was a little guitar lick I put on there, and it was Nell. I recorded it with a fucking jazzmaster. It was Nell's Climb from fucking Wilco. And I was like, I was so worried that it was so obvious, and I played it for Issa, my wife, And I played it for you and I think I was like was it too much and like no it's just it was just right It was perfect. It was like kind of like a little but to me it was like My ears I literally stole the fucking Notes from him and like I took them and I said those are mine now. Thank you very much You know, but like it's it's not easy to do man. I don't know JD. Track 3:[40:25] Yes. I thought it I think they pulled it was just me JD that Pete Pete called up in the middle of my night and serenaded me with some guitar licks. Damn, I'm not feeling as special now. Track 2:[40:40] You'll get it Tim, you'll get it. Track 3:[40:42] Hey, I thought putting down... Track 1:[40:43] Putting down, yeah. Track 3:[40:45] Yeah, so putting down, I felt like, I mean Pete commented on the, you know, the references and stories of this great continent and what we did to the Indigenous folks that were already here and the land grabs and you know that's hitting hard with this one and I feel like with Gord's themes and songwriting and his connotations of it all, this is that song for the album, I thought it was like big and heavy. [41:22] I didn't really know what it was about my first handful of listens. I couldn't really peg it until I did a little bit deeper diving into it. But you know, it was my first few listens, it was kind of like a car ride sing-along song. I felt, you know, it just felt familiar. It felt hip. I didn't think like, this is the best song on the album, and I thought it held its place on the album for what it was. So that's kind of where it ended with me. Cool. The next one, Stay, on the other hand, I thought, man, this song, it's quiet, it's cute, it's cute. I hadn't had that feeling before. Is it a thank you? You know, the Bureau Chiefs and the Shrugging Spies, I thought this was at first when I first heard this? I thought this is hilarious. Without researching, I thought this was like a thank you or something to the band's road crew, because I heard beer and cheese and shrugging spies, not bureau chiefs. I mean, I was like, I was so incorrect with this song. You were a great crew. You were a great you. You know, what is the storyline here? Is it about going to war and relationships or what? What is going on here? Track 1:[42:48] Maybe a little of everything. Track 3:[42:49] Yeah, maybe, but one, you know, after I did, after the leak, Sit down and kind of research what it's about. Hopefully Pete you have some more music based Comments about it, but one person I need to shout out here. The the handle is The letter Y Salvatore, there was a song meanings.com. [43:15] Reference from 2005 so this this is amazing it said one theory is the song is about Fox Mulder from the X-Files lines like there's no one up above us and with the Bureau Chiefs and the shrugging spies on the X-Files series Mulder is often working against the establishment as a sentiment in this song you've got no business in here brother Mulder is obsessed Pete from I'll go with UFO so lines like you see a light and then another this this song maybe it's about UFOs maybe it's about aliens I don't know this this was like this was a total head-scratcher for me not to say that I didn't like it but it was like what is this song about it wasn't beer and cheese I don't know it's not it's funny that you say that because one of the lines already is this song makes me want to sit in a pub and drink beer with my buddy. I didn't say eat cheese, but like, that's the vibe I got. Appreciating the musicianship on this recordTrack 2:[44:21] I mean, it's, um, there's, there's, okay. I could say a lot. I really liked this song a lot. I loved it. It. The riffing that Gore does with the vocals. I think there's a bridge part of all things being balanced where John Fahy's drums... I feel like every musician on this record, on this record, really shines. Like everybody shines. Gord Sinclair, I feel like, has always been really top-notch. That guy is fucking flawless. He's so underrated. Extremely underrated. Uh, when it comes to, you know, I, I just because I'm, you know, playing wise, obviously Gordoni, I mean, there's nothing you can say about that, but playing wise, Paul Langlois, am I saying? Langlois. Track 1:[45:25] Langlois. Track 2:[45:27] Um, and Rob Baker. I've always kind of gone back. I'm starting to appreciate the differences between those guys because they're two Diametrically different guitar players. I mean so different and and That happened on this album. Track 3:[45:43] Don't you? Track 2:[45:43] Oh, yeah more so really noticeable and I went down a bit of a rabbit hole this week I'll try not to go as deep as I went, but I told JD I was watching some live stuff and looking at Rob Baker's set up. [46:05] Paul Ling Hua, he always plays that black Les Paul, but Rob Baker plays that Strat, which I fucking love. And he's got something called Lace Sensors pickups in it, which not to get too technical for the listeners. They were apparently these were like standard issue Fender pickups from 90 from 85 to like 96 and then they just became too expensive. But they're really cool. The only shitty part is they look horrible on a guitar. They don't look it doesn't make it look like a Strat anyway. But he also plays a Paul Reed Smith, which I absolutely hate those guitars because, and JD I told you this, they're the Carlos Santana guitar and when they first became like available to the public so to speak or like mainstream people were able to buy them. I remember walking into a guitar center in the 90s and seeing one up on the wall that was like, it was like $19,000 or $20,000 it was like ridiculous and just going, and now can buy a PRS for like $1,800, $2,000, but it just turned me off and I fucking hate it. And if I'm Rob Baker, if I'm Rob, if you're listening, just don't ever play the fucking PRS, man. Get rid of it. Ditch it. Rob Baker's guitar choices and preferences[47:30] The telly's cool, but that strat is where it's at, man. [47:35] He does play Tele, and there's one other one I can't remember, but there's a great website, and I sadly have been on it more times than I can count. Oh, and he plays an SG, and I play an SG too. The website's called Equipboard.com, and it's got, they can pretty much look at any like, musician that's like, you know, quote, unquote, made it, so to speak, and find their rig, and they have the references, like, not just like, they don't just tell you, but they go, this is why we know that this is they're playing and they have a link to like a concert video, or a picture of them pointing out the gear, which is fucking cool. Track 1:[48:24] It's really cool. Yeah. I love, neither of you guys mentioned it, but I love Gord's voice in this song. He's doing a different sort of thing with his voice. It's lower register, softer I suppose, right? Because it is a soft song. But it's down, it's, you know, sorry you can't see my hand, but it's down here, like belly button wise. Uh is really quite quite uh effective on this song i agree with that jd when are you gonna fix your your belly button cam you're gonna get that going next next pod what's that my belly button cam Yeah, that took me a minute to get. Sorry. All right, track number six. Track number 6 is The Bastard. Appreciating the Percussion and Lyrical InsanityTrack 2:[56:45] Wow. This song starts with the they're not bongos, but there's some sort of kind of cool percussion. Track 3:[56:54] They're there. Yeah, it's some kind of yeah, yeah, yeah. Track 2:[56:59] There's a lot. Track 3:[57:00] It's fun. I love when they bring those in. Track 2:[57:02] Yeah, it's really cool. This song lyrically is fucking insane. There's a word in there called crepuscular? Track 1:[57:16] Yeah, what is that? Like, what does that even mean? Track 2:[57:19] Yeah, it means, um, adjective of resembling or relating to twilight. Yeah, I mean, gnarly shit and- Oh, gourd. Track 1:[57:31] Oh, man. Track 3:[57:36] Crepuscular rays, as the sun groomed the plane with crepuscular rays. Track 2:[57:41] There's a line in there about the Purple Italians, like it's just... Track 3:[57:47] Yeah, what is that referencing? I meant to look that up. I meant to look that up more and did not. Track 2:[57:52] Some weird-ass lyrics. I noticed something too. I love the line, the presaging pel-nel. Yeah. Track 3:[58:03] Yeah, the pre-stage pel-nel. Track 1:[58:05] Pre-stage and pel-nel. Track 3:[58:06] Yeah, that was my favorite. Track 2:[58:09] It's um i noticed that in addition to to to um gordon sinclair being so in the fucking zone on this song like a like a like a hypnotized fucking i don't know dude he's just he's a fucking machine on this song song. He, I watched a little bit of the Woodstock, Woodstock live show 99. And in this song, during Grace 2, which is what they opened up with, Gord starts testing out some of these lyrics to this song during Grace 2. Bird's Eye View, right? Track 1:[58:54] He talks about a bird's eye view of a bird's eye view. Yeah, yeah. So cool that you got to see that. Track 2:[59:01] Finished watching the whole thing. Track 1:[59:02] And you recognize it. Track 2:[59:04] Go ahead. Frustration with lack of guitars in "Grace II"Track 1:[59:10] Yeah, I went down to Rabbit Hole the other day and was just watching a whole bunch. I started with that when I texted you guys and was like, yeah, I'm watching it. And for the beginning of Grace II, it's all drums and Gord's voice, which I don't mind, but I want to hear those guitars, you know? And then suddenly it kicks in. Track 3:[59:29] The purple people, the purple Italian people, I just found it was an Italian mass protest movement to call for the resignation of a prime minister, one of their prime ministers. I feel like, I don't know, there must have been an earlier historical use of this because this is actually from 2009. So yeah, I'm curious. Well, I forgot to tell you guys that Gord is actually reference a mystic he could see in the future yes I wouldn't be surprised yes guys if there's any more sorry there's any more insight on the purple people somebody somebody let us know Tim at getting hit So I got an email. Mention of an email received regarding the purple peopleTrack 1:[1:00:19] Yeah. Got to get our $80 worth. Track 3:[1:00:25] I loved the pre-staging Pell-Mel. There's been a handful. I wish I would have started a list of the gourdisms that would be so fun to learn and reference, because that was so good. When I first heard him sing that, it was like, you know. Track 1:[1:00:42] What is pell-mell? Track 3:[1:00:44] Well, it just means like, it just means like absurd craziness or warning, like presaging means like warning together. Well, pell-mell means confusion or disorder or like a confused haste. So it's, presaging is, you know, the warning of a disorderly moment or the warning of something about to go down. That's kind of what I took. Track 1:[1:01:16] That's dire, I love it. Track 3:[1:01:19] Pre-saging, yeah, it's good. I mean, it's a loaded three words, basically. I think Pete hit on a lot of it, but this song to me kind of got us back in the car and down the road again. It was like driving, rocking, feeling, which I totally dug. The reference of all of this auger as well, you know, auger meaning like a fucking coring, drilling, coring into something and it's just this good rocking song. Track 1:[1:01:55] It's different though. Auger spelled one way is coring, but there's another, like to auger is to portend a good or bad outcome. Track 3:[1:02:08] Okay. Track 1:[1:02:11] So it's like, to pretend. Yeah. And I believe that's what it, like, it's all this auger's well, like, but, right, like, auger a well could mean digging a hole. But auger's well means pretending to, portending to good things are going to happen. Track 3:[1:02:37] Okay, okay. I just thought there were some beautiful lyrics in here. Also, I mean, all this augurs well or yeah, it's the The stanza never mind that pool in the mountains victory came and went on winged elephants I saw you all this augurs. Well, like you know, what? What is what is going on there? But it I thought it was likely this loaded very story specific Specific song without researching it, you know, I heard the lyrics Billy Sunday shout in Philadelphia for Christ Like who really is this song about did you look up Billy Sunday? Track 1:[1:03:15] Yeah. Track 3:[1:03:16] Yeah. I loved I loved reading about that This is like one of those that is one of those songs easy, right? Yeah, you barely you barely touch into on the research side and Realize that you know Billy Sunday was baseball player. Track 1:[1:03:33] I want to say a pitcher from like 1891. Track 3:[1:03:36] Yeah, he was this total this this I guess amazing pitcher And he played for chicago and boston and philly and which During those times you played for a team like your whole career, you know, you stayed in the city You you you became a presence with the team and the community and all that stuff if you did but this this this fellow William Ashley or Billy Sunday Sunday was his family name he he was like a total drunk ladies man and he moved from team to team to team and I think this from what I read the cops and the ladies got to know him really well And then after playing in Philly, he was witnessed to on the street and ultimately became a traveling preacher. [1:04:32] He went from standout pitcher to traveling preacher. And while he was preaching, teams even were soliciting him to come back and pitch. And during those days, if you made like 400 bucks a month playing professional baseball, that was like, a great salary. Yeah, I'm sure. And at one point, I read the Pittsburgh Pirates offered him $2,000 a month, and he still declined, and he still continued to be a traveling preacher. And his kind of schtick was talking about like the sex and alcohol lifestyle, from what I gathered, a lot about alcohol. And it was so much that when towns heard he was coming, they would just close up the bars until he went out. Literally, because he was so like, you know, he was his own prohibitionist. So it's all the personality. Track 2:[1:05:37] Yeah Thinking of that was the runner then I Don't know Like losses lay or some Forrest Gump. Track 1:[1:05:45] No. Track 2:[1:05:45] No, this is a reference from the hip Oh Terry Fox Harry Fox. Track 1:[1:05:50] Very fine. Yeah no he's a guy that ran across canada or something and he got close but he died he ran a marathon everyday he ran a marathon everyday on one leg yeah. Oh okay yeah cuz he and he was he was like. He was twenty one years old and he got cancer they removed his leg and he decided he was gonna run across canada and he started on the east coast he passed away thunder bay so he passed away about one third of the way through. Track 3:[1:06:21] Wow. Track 1:[1:06:22] Oh, it's fucking still, man. That's crazy. But it's like, every day his stump was like, like, euchred because he was wearing one of the, like, now, probably, somebody could do it on one of those, like, one of those spring legs, you know? Track 3:[1:06:37] Yeah, yeah. Track 1:[1:06:38] Yeah, but back in the day, he had, like, just an old school prosthetic leg, and it was crazy. Yeah. Track 3:[1:06:45] Pete, on this one, did you feel like, Did you ever get an inkling like, uh, perhaps this one was music first lyric second, or did you pick up at all on like the kind of background guitar riffing that was kind of over here? And yeah, it was like, I don't know, it sounded a little after thought ish, that guitar riffing, just kind of carrying you through it all worked. But this one, this one, I think compositionally. You know, song, story, Billy Sunday reference aside, which is amazing to dive into and learn about. I mean, I almost want to paint Billy Sunday or something with like on the pulpit with a baseball bat. That's cool. A fifth of whiskey in the other hand or something. But anyways, I felt like compositionally, the song writing-wise fits in the album. It just It just kind of fits in there, but also like, eh. Track 1:[1:07:46] You weren't big on it. Track 3:[1:07:49] No, it didn't grab me. It was like, OK, let's get back in the car. We're back on the road. Let's get through the song. It's rocking. Yeah, let's see what's next. Track 2:[1:07:56] I think at first it was like that, but then the song really like, because instrumentally, it's so fucking rich. Yeah, but like Gord, dude, again, Gord could match, pick the most complex composition that any composers have ever written. And I'm sure there is some fucking book that Gord Downie wrote lyrics in, somewhere floating around or shoved in his fucking basement, that lyrics. Track 3:[1:08:29] I would hope there's like, yeah, like 200. Track 2:[1:08:32] Yeah, he could fit to that. I mean, they probably just, yeah. So I feel you. I feel you. I feel you. Yeah. Track 1:[1:08:40] So let's move into track number seven, The Completist. Track 2:[1:08:44] I don't have a ton to say about this. I would say I really love this song. Again, this is a fade in from the previous track. Gord Sinclair again. fucking standout performance on this song. The percussive chops of the band at this point in the record. I mean, there are other songs that come up that you're just like, what the fuck? But they're not a bar band anymore. I mean, I know they still, but I still think like, I don't know if it was Phantom Power before, a record or two before, you see that kind of bar band thing still rearing its head a little bit, Like, this is just so far from that. These guys are fucking, they've really become superb musicians from the EP to now. Like, they've honed their fucking craft. And then the... Musicians' dedication to improvementTrack 1:[1:09:51] Road tested. Track 2:[1:09:52] Yeah, I mean, it's the road, it's the recording, it's the composition. But it's clear that like, every single musician in this band is like, I want to become better at my instrument. And I'm going to do this. It wasn't just like they just played a bunch, kept doing it, like, they clearly actively tried to become better musicians, as they were continuing. Like, I would put that to any of these fucking guys, if they're standing in front of me, and tell me, like, tell me I'm lying. Like, tell me I'm full of shit. And they would say no. Like, Whether it's, I mean, fucking Kirk Hammett for fuck's sake was taking lessons from Steve Vai when he was already in Metallica. Like, what does that tell you? You know, like, musicians want to become better and they, these guys clearly. The only thing I was gonna say was the woman singing, I thought it was Kate Fenner from before, but it's not, right? Track 1:[1:10:52] I don't know, I thought it was Kate Fenner. Track 2:[1:10:54] Apparently it's, um, Julie. Do I run Dorian, Julie Dorian, Dorian. Track 1:[1:11:02] Oh, Julie Dorian. Track 2:[1:11:03] Okay. Track 1:[1:11:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Track 2:[1:11:05] But I, and this is just, you know, I want to say this earlier, Tim, but I want to say that I did do a little research on Kate Fenner and her, um, her label that she's signed to is called UFO music. So that's awesome. Track 1:[1:11:19] Oh, you must love that. Track 2:[1:11:20] I do. Track 3:[1:11:22] You just stole my thunder for Toronto 4. We'll get there. Track 2:[1:11:28] I thought the lyrics in the song were beautiful. It was fucking, the beautiful fucking lyrics. Amazingly beautiful. Track 1:[1:11:35] Yeah. Yeah. Track 3:[1:11:37] Well, I'll have to look into Julie Dorian. I had not found her. And we'll get to it, but we haven't talked much about Kate Fenner, nor who we mentioned earlier. Chris Brown. The fellow on keys, Chris Brown. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, this song to complete us, I felt like it was like at first it was kind of, OK, we're already back to a slowdown. Like, it felt a little bit of a chug placement-wise in the album, it's a beautiful song. You know, I just didn't, it kind of left me hanging a little bit. Like, it didn't grab me and shake me around or rattle me around or anything like that. It felt like it could have been an ender. Like, it felt like, is this the end of the album? I mean, this could be the end of an album, so that's good. Track 1:[1:12:29] Well, it's the end of side one, if you're thinking. Oh, maybe. LPs. Track 3:[1:12:36] Yeah, yeah, okay, okay. Track 1:[1:12:37] And that would make sense with our next song too, Freak Turbulence, opening side two with a banger, right? Track 3:[1:12:44] Yeah, big time. I mean, this is like we're alive again. We're back in the driver's seat or the passenger's seat. Like we have this backup singing again. I think this was Kate Fenner at this time. I'm not sure. Between the two. I don't know enough of Julie's voice to distinguish between the two. Track 1:[1:13:06] There are definitely people out there that will tell us for sure. Track 3:[1:13:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm gonna look it up because I think I got Kate Fenner down. I mean, yes, yeah, yeah. So back to the song though, there's a comedy factor here, am I wrong? Like, this is so much about Gord being afraid to fly or not liking flying or, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's all this talk about. I don't know, it feels lighter and more fun than usual. Track 1:[1:13:39] Like, did the captain just say this? Like, did the captain just say, like? Track 3:[1:13:45] Well, we'll land in less than 10 minutes. Or he says, or unless. Did he say unless or less? Yeah, he's afraid. You know, I think this is the song that guys. Were had to fly back to Canada from the US because originally this album Was to be recorded on a moving locomotive train. Track 1:[1:14:11] They talked about doing that. Yes I don't know how that would have ever happened. Track 3:[1:14:15] No shit. What a fucking cool idea I mean imagine that Pete moving locomotive with all the sounds and shakes and rattles I mean maybe maybe for a song but a whole album yeah with some serious that was some serious weed smoking yeah I'm up with that idea you know we should do guys we should fly back down to Memphis take the train take the train to LA and record the home anyways this this is a this was kind of a fun song it was a little more jovial I dug it there's a There's a weird, PeepeePie caught this, there's some weird guitar feedback, like the last 10 seconds or so, which made the song feel kind of ominous, or maybe the Freak Turbulence was like the plane going down, I don't know. It was funny in that regard, it was like a total head-scratcher, but this one I kind of dug. Track 2:[1:15:15] Oh, I dug this one, man, there's a line in there that really stuck with me, it's Satan Holding back hands, our nose and our chin. Track 3:[1:15:22] Yeah, yeah. Track 2:[1:15:24] I love that. There's a really, I think, the mix, there was a lot of moments where I wrote down, this is probably the first time I've said it, but it's written on a ton of songs, the mix on this song, how they mix this song with the instruments, like the levels of all the instruments, it's just so, it really, you know, it makes the fucking song. It makes this song so fucking cool the vocals build, Yeah, I really, you know, I'll rather than to, I'll save my, you know, I'll yield my time only because I have some, some hefty shit to say about some stuff coming up. But I, this song made me run, like when this song came on and I was going on some runs, I definitely put it into a higher gear with this song. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. Track 3:[1:16:20] Yeah. Yeah. Especially after the completed, you know, transitioning into this one. It's like, yes, OK, here we go again. This is definitely the if it's side two, it definitely is the the side one. Get us going again. "Sharks" - a monotonous but intriguing song[1:16:36] Sharks, can I go? Sharks. Yeah. This one kind of lazes along for me. It's got a few interesting bridges, but it's kind of monotonous, but not not. I'm not saying that in a negative way. It's almost like, it's almost got this head down, shoegazy kind of feel, you know? Then at the three minute mark, there's this like heavy tom kind of bass kind of transition in there. It's the bass guitar is like kind of all over the neck for just a brief second, but you know, it's one of, the, this song is, it has what I enjoyed because they they're starting to do this more because they're all just accelerating as musicians is that it has like well over a minute of music the last portion of it is just like great music carrying you through rather than singing until like the last seconds or giving like seven seconds at the end or what have you so it's. [1:17:42] It was kind of a fun song in that way. It just felt different than the rest, but also worked, you know, positively. Track 2:[1:17:52] I love, this is another fade in from the previous track, which I love, that they're doing that, making it very concept-y. I love the line in there about the Mariana's Trench. That's just fucking cool. It's such a, it's always been a fascination of mine, probably since I saw fucking, what was the name of that movie? Was that Harris? I don't know. I thought it was a James Cameron movie for Christ's sake, it was huge. The Abyss. The Abyss. Oh, The Abyss. The Abyss was in Maria's Trench. Track 1:[1:18:29] Right, right, right, right. Track 2:[1:18:32] But yeah, I mean, the big standout for me here is Rob Baker's guitar is just fucking insanity. He does these really cool arpeggios in the song. And the coolest thing for me was, I was like, what's that fucking effect on this guitar? And I was like, I wrote this down early on, I was like, he's got a, like a delay on the guitar, but not a delay. So it's going bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. It's so, the delay time is so small that you can't really hear it like a repetitive delay. It's just, when you put it down almost to zero, it just has this cool, and then I look on no shit by the time I found that website and he's got a Line 6 DL4 delay pedal that no doubt he was using on this fucking song. It just made me feel cool because I was like, my ears still work after all these years. But I fucking love it. If I didn't, I didn't think there was a song that could rival Tiger the Lion and I still don't think it beats it but it's pretty up there and that's fucking Toronto 4. An analysis of the opening guitar arpeggiosTrack 1:[1:26:42] Talk to me. Talk to me. Track 2:[1:26:44] I mean, the way it opens with the, like, the record static. Yep. Again, Rob Baker's doing these weird arpeggios, like he, like, it's kind of like a falling guitar, like he goes from a, like a, it's a D chord or whatever the hell, the octave, than the chord, then the seventh, then the diminished. Makes it feel really sad. It's just, or like, kind of sad and mysterious, and it's floating. It's like all the echo-y shit that there's, I don't know if it's Kate Fenner on this. It is. It is? Okay. Track 3:[1:27:26] Yeah. Track 2:[1:27:27] Yeah. The way that the, I don't know if it's like he's using mallets or what, but Johnny Fay is like coming in with the cymbals with these really soft mallets that like kind of give it like a gong sound to make it really super dramatic but the songs it's fucking awesome I mean I was like what it was weird because this was a song that early on I would get through the first nine tracks because I was doing like shorter runs when I would take it out and I didn't get to like Toronto for and then the first time I heard it I was like what in the fuck the surf tone on guitar is just... It's a cool jam dude. It's cool as fuck. A lot of Pink Floyd, I feel, influence on there. Track 3:[1:28:18] I agree with all that. I felt like the percussions on this, the drums on this one, had sort of this metronome, just more of a... I don't know. Track 2:[1:28:28] You do the panning on the left to right? Track 3:[1:28:31] Yeah, like the pace of the percussion really, to me, held the song like all the way through and was perfect. I mean, I often hone in on drum stuff like you do guitar and I felt like that was just, I don't know, this song is, it starts slow, it's emotional, it kind of feels like apologetic you know also feels like i don't know familiar maybe it's like the mention of Vesuvius as a metaphor for like family and stresses and breakups and i don't know the The song was just, it's pretty jam packed. I didn't. Look big into the background on lyrics or story or any of that, you know, I just questioned, which I said to JD like a week ago, I was like, why the hell Toronto four? Are there three other Toronto songs? Or what is what is that about? Track 1:[1:29:29] So if anybody knows, my only guess is, like my, as far as just guesswork, is might be, it might have been the fourth run, you know, it might have been the fourth take, like it's Sometimes you use the studio parlance to come up with the title of a song that you can't quite name. Track 3:[1:29:49] Yeah. Track 1:[1:29:50] Well, this is a great, it's a great song, and you're right, you nailed it on the head when you talk about family. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely familial. It's, you know, it's about the matriarch of his family, his grandmother, holding things up. And that what are the first the first lyrics are? Absolutely. They slay me and I can't recall them at the moment. Track 3:[1:30:17] You know, you were the rock plug for us all. Did you know you were the conduit of Vesuvius? You were far more unifying than, you know, I'm not a judge of suitable, but you almost had it all. I mean, if that's about his grandma being the what a tribute, the rock plug for their family. I mean rock plug is definitely a volcanic reference of you know a rock holding the mountain together before the magma just blows it apart so it's right fucking cool pretty pretty yeah I mean it's this this one maybe has the simplest lyrics that we've seen in a while. [1:30:59] It's it's a beautiful song. So Kate Fenner on this one just to touch on her because I Think we've heard her before although. I only found that she To recorded and toured for this album, but man, she's she's got this How do you describe her voice? I think it's just gorgeous. I think it's yeah, it's It's just, it's, it's, it's lovely. I, she, she, somebody described her as less, a lusty alternative to a Joni Mitchell ish sound. Like all of that is, is true. So she's got her own solo stuff. She's got, as Pete mentioned, UFO Records is her label. She's got this new album out that I touched on briefly over the weekend. It's it's pretty she's got a beautiful voice like if she ever tours and we get a chance to just Go and any of us hear her perform. I'm sure it would be worth it. She's got a dreamy voice So yeah, great great addition to me, too I don't know if you saw this tour JD, but what she did she yeah, do you recall her on stage or yeah? Track 1:[1:32:09] Because it was it was strange because both Chris Brown and her were on stage with them the whole time and that was It was just it was sort of a strange look because up until that point It had been the five of the month's age. Track 3:[1:32:20] Mm-hmm. Track 1:[1:32:20] That was it. And so this you know, it changed the dynamic for sure and I'll be the first to tell you that when this record dropped I Liked it But I didn't love it. But now 20 years later. Yeah, I fucking love this record Yeah, I can listen to this record at any time like yeah, yeah top to bottom. Okay, okay, Now let's go toward the bottom and talk about Wild Mountain Honey, dude. Track 3:[1:32:52] I love this one. So I'm taking I'm taking on this one. Mr Okay, you can you can fill in do it Yeah, like this this to me I heard Pink Floyd I heard Jerry Garcia of guitar effects Like I I heard like fish. I don't know like this song to me. They even the the title is is different, like this one was just a little bit different there. You know, it's the drums are soft, but they can sound kind of angry. This is one of the songs on the album, you know, the first time listening it through. Or I thought, OK, I need to find this one live and check it out because I'm sure it gets played harder and louder, maybe faster. [1:33:43] There's just really good chord changing and bridges and guitar riffs and it feels a little bit patched or contrived at the end you know I was hoping for like a big finish the first time I heard this one because it really grabbed me it made it just this to me was like hip fans who have seen the band play live a a bunch. Probably love this one live. You know, this one just, it hit some marks for me with going, with going after, like, followers of other bands who I knew probably in the same summer saw Grateful Dead play it or saw Phish play and saw the Tragically Hit play. Like a lot of, you know, A lot of times when I experience bands playing live over the course of a summer, it kind of, you know, dictates that summer. Like, you think back to that summer and you're like, oh, that's when I went to X Festival or that's when I saw 8Bandplay a couple times. The Papa Roach show. Yeah, like that's, yeah, definitely the Papa Roach show. But no, this one was, This kind of centered me back into the seat of the Tragically Hip. I really dug it. I ended up listening to it a handful of times by itself. Track 1:[1:35:08] Oh wow! Cool. Track 3:[1:35:11] Probably not a single though, right? Track 1:[1:35:13] Not a single, nope. Track 3:[1:35:14] Yeah, every once in a while they have a song that's not a single that's a little bit off character that I dig and this is one of those. Rhythms and Unique Drum Hits in "Wild Mountain Honey"Track 2:[1:35:23] I thought that I mean the song it's funny ironically it starts out like wild mountain honey it begins like the name does Soft like wild mountain honey, and it creeps up on you like a whiskey, and it fucking destroys. Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, I think It's funny because I remember looking for the lyrics online and realized there's a Steve Miller song called why I'm not many as well But when I saw the title of this, I thought of the Peach Boys song, Wild Honey, which neither of those examples are even close to this song. But what I got from it was, I fucking love the rhythms in this fucking, the drums in the rhythms. The drum hits in this fucking song are so cool and they're so unique and they don't sound like another band. Like there's some songs that, like I mentioned, some Wilco stuff earlier, there's other songs from other hip records where it's like they're doing a drum hit or a drum fill and you're like, yeah, that's the same drum fill that this band did on this song and that's been, this is completely fucking different. And it's so fucking cool. So unique, the rhythms in the song. [1:36:43] There's a weird keyboard or flute effect in the background going down, it was really faint and hard to pick up. I'm pretty sure it was a keyboard, but it could have been some sort of setting, but I love the line, I don't want to put another thought in my head, I just thought that was so fucking cool towards the end. And then the song, the solo starts before, but the part at about 3 minutes 30 seconds of the guitar soloer. Just, I don't know, dude. I hope I run into him. Track 3:[1:37:18] That carries it to the end, right? Track 2:[1:37:22] It does. Yeah. I want to run into Rob Baker at a 7-Eleven or something. Him buying a Slurpee and me already up front and being like, hey, man, let me get this guy's Slurpee and I'll pay for it or something. Just be like, alright, man. Track 1:[1:37:41] What a gentleman you are. Track 2:[1:37:42] I want to be that guy. It's weird that I did not expect to where I'm at so far in the discography of this band for him to slowly become one of my almost favored guitar players. And this guy that I never knew before. I fucking love his fucking guitar playing, dude. It's fucking awesome. Track 1:[1:38:09] Yeah, he's really good. Track 3:[1:38:11] That's an amazing gift for you, bro. What's that? So that's an amazing gift for you to have this discovery of a new influence. Track 2:[1:38:19] Totally, absolutely Tim, absolutely. Track 3:[1:38:22] So Train Overnight, the next

Busy show. Tim How from the North Dakota Softball All-Stars previews the Midseason Madness tournament in north Fargo this weekend, featuring 33 teams from around the state. Joel Vettel from Sanford Health also joined the show to talk the Roger Maris Golf Tournament and events in June.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

[00:11:25] Care Flight Plane Crashes Killing 5 in Northern Nevada [00:30:23] Ode To An Otter [00:36:54] Oliver - “Requests for Medical Professionals” [00:42:53] Larry - Does Anyone on the Crew Need One of These? [00:51:00] Learjet Takes Off At Boston Logan International Airport Without Clearance [01:02:22] Explosive Found in Bag at Pennsylvania Airport, Man Arrested [01:08:46] United B737 Laptop Fire [01:24:47] Mesa CRJ9 and Skywest E175 at Burbank Loss of Separation on Runway [01:48:15] COFFEE FUND [01:50:42] PLANE TALE - Great Uncle Baz [02:12:10] David - NZ2 [02:16:02] Ben - Qantas Accidents [02:23:23] Bluebird B734 at Paris on Feb 10th 2023, Huge Bangs on Descent [02:49:41] Tim - How to Identify a Boeing from an Airbus: 9 Steps… ABOUT RADIO ROGER “Radio Roger” Stern has been a TV and Radio reporter since he was a teenager. He's won an Emmy award for his coverage in the New York City Market. Currently you can hear his reporting in New York on radio station 1010 WINS, the number one all-news station in the nation. Nationally you can hear him anchor newscasts on the Fox News Radio Network and on Fox's Headlines 24-7 service on Sirius XM Radio. In addition Roger is a proud member of and contributor to the APG community. Give us your review in iTunes! I'm "airlinepilotguy" on Facebook, and "airlinepilotguy" on Twitter. feedback@airlinepilotguy.com airlinepilotguy.com "Appify" the Airline Pilot Guy website (http://airlinepilotguy.com) on your phone or tablet! ATC audio from http://LiveATC.net Intro/outro Music, Coffee Fund theme music by Geoff Smith thegeoffsmith.com Dr. Steph's intro music by Nevil Bounds Capt Nick's intro music by Kevin from Norway (aka Kevski) Doh De Oh by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) Source: http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/index.html?isrc=USUAN1100255 Artist: http://incompetech.com/ Copyright © AirlinePilotGuy 2023, All Rights Reserved Airline Pilot Guy Show by Jeff Nielsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License

Today on the Brain Booster we are joined by a fascinating guest Tim Tucker the former caddie of the unique Bryson De Chambeau. As a partnership they won a number of PGA Tour titles including the US Open It was a great insight into a very different golfer and the way he formed such an effective partnership with his caddie How he was prepared to always do things his own way but also very open to taking on board good quality information from Tim How they worked out how to beat the golf course Bryson's incredible body transformation and how he set about accomplishing it The way he deals with poor shots on the course His obsession with the Driver and how many balls he will hit in a day Why his putting is so underrated How they actually brought home the US Open trophy when the heat turned up on Sunday afternoon Bryson's ability to leave no stone unturned. To sift through information and find out what is USEFUL for him A very unique and fascinating character. Also we discuss Tim's own journey in golf from a background in the military to caddying at Bandon Dunes, learning Aim Point and then the partnership with Bryson. After the relationship with Bryson concluded Tim has gone on to invent and create the True Aim Marker A fascinating way to read greens that eliminates guesswork We go into some good detail on how it works Tim firmly believes that most golfers don't need to spend more time on improving their stroke but they DO need to get better at reading greens. A lot of poor putting strokes are a result of VERY poor green reading. The True Aim Marker has the potential to massively improve your green reading Well worth taking a look To find out more about Tim Tucker and the ‘True Aim Marker' go to https://trueaimmarker.com To get a copy of the new ‘Neuro Putting' program with Dr Izzy Justice and Karl Morris go to https://themindfactor.net/shop-new/ To book your Mind Factor workshop get in touch with us at www.themindfactor.com          

Learn how to build IRONCLAD discipline in this free workshop:https://impacttheory.krtra.com/t/kRsmqU3yxKXcJoin the Kyzen journey inside my Discord here:https://impacttheory.krtra.com/t/beE3RNvrzCCpOn Today's Episode: Nobody is successful in life without overcoming failure and adversity several times along the way.We're revisiting some of the most compelling interviews ever on Impact Theory in this mashup. Tai Lopez, Jay Williams, David Bayer, and Tim Grover have got heavy-duty stories about not quitting, what you need to do if you find yourself in a hole, and how you can pivot to a better life.We've all been there, feeling stuck and not knowing where to turn. By giving you my insights and talking about the things that might be driving you into darkness, I hope you'll find clarity and use honesty to help you make essential changes in your life. Understand this. You have it in you to make a comeback from any setback. And this week we're going to show you how. Tai Lopez is an entrepreneur, author, investor, motivational speaker, crypto philanthropist, and creator of The 67 Steps Program, a guide to simplifying the process of personal profit and higher philosophical understanding of the “Good Life.” Check out his full episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX5eajzLJMUBy age 21, Jay Williams had achieved his dreams of playing in the NBA and becoming wealthy. But before his second season, he suffered a horrific motorcycle accident that led to 10 surgeries, months in the ICU, and doubts that he would walk again. It took him years to heal, but he eventually clawed his way out of the darkness to become a popular NBA analyst. See his full episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbFQ_GCdwgkDavid Bayer built a series of highly successful internet ventures but paid a price, battling long-term drug addiction and alcoholism. He eventually recovered and embraced a new addiction…personal evolution. Today, he's made it his mission to help people overcome their limiting beliefs through visualization to get to their optimal mindset. See his full episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCIBQigXR8I&t=67sTim Grover is an iconic peak performance and mental toughness trainer who has coached hundreds of athletes, including Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. He is also the author of two widely acclaimed best sellers, Relentless and Winning, that have become must-reads by anyone seeking to blast through barriers holding them back. Check out Tim's full episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyl_LfvWfrESHOW NOTES:1:00 | The Four Pillars of Happiness (Lopez)5:15 | Conscientiousness is Most Correlated to Business Success (Lopez)12:35 | The Importance of Reading and Mentoring (Lopez)19:30 | You Have to be Crazy to be Great/The Kobe Story (Williams)23:30 | The Relentless Mentality (Williams)27:31 | How to Assess Who You Really Are (Williams)31:30 | Making Choices and Overcoming Adversity (Williams)37:35 | Breakthroughs Based on What You Believe In (Bayer)45:00 | Finding Clarity and Linking it to Purpose (Bayer)47:55 | Helping People Get Past Their Fears (Bayer)55:20 | Q & A with Tim - How to Bounce Back from Failure (Bilyeu)1:36:50 | Tim Grover and Understanding Your Dark Side (Tim Grover)QUOTES:“The Four Pillars (of happiness) are health, wealth, love and happiness.” Tai Lopez [1:01]“Optimizing your life around hustling is like optimizing your life around going pee.” Tai Lopez [4:04]“…he dropped 40 on us. So after the game, I had to ask him, and I went up to Kobe and said, ‘Why were you in the gym so long before the game?' and he said, ‘Because I saw you come in…” Jay Williams [21:30]“I believe that unbound intelligence is all there is…it's mathematical in its expression.” David Bayer [38:44]“One of the most interesting things I find about love is that you're opening yourself up to far more easily being hurt. It's a very vulnerable state.” Tom Bilyeu [59:20]“The greatest gift anyone can give you is doubt.” Tom Bilyeu [1:30:10]“Most people will not use every tool they have because they're afraid, they don't know how to control it, acknowledge it, they're afraid of being judged.” Tim Grover [1:38:25] Follow Tom Bilyeu:Website: http://impacttheory.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu Follow Tai Lopez: Website: https://www.tailopez.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tailopez Follow Jay Williams:Twitter: http://bit.ly/2rTcZWW Instagram: http://bit.ly/2tfqd1L Facebook: http://bit.ly/2tB7BvA Follow David Bayer:Website: https://davidbayer.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/davidbayer33 Facebook: https://bit.ly/2ISAXfxFollow Tim Grover:Website: https://timgrover.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/attackathletics Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/timsgrover/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/timgrover/

Deleting Phone Contacts // 7 people texted Tim//How many contacts does Sheron have? // Elex Michaelson// Angel Martinez contacts // Elex Michaelson

Good Friday Fauci praises communist China lockdown and suggests we used the lockdowns to get people vaccinated David - How can anyone be sure they were validly baptized? Adon - What is a Sephardic Jew? Patrick offers a biblical overview of Moses as a type or pre-figurement of Christ and explains the profound parallels between Moses liberating the people from bondage in Egypt with that of Christ liberating us by his Passion and death from bondage to sin. Matthew - Suggestions for helping my mom get back into the faith? Antonio 6-years-old - Why did Jesus have to die? Tim - How does the crowd change so quickly from Palm Sunday to Good Friday?

What do you get when you put BOL old heads Tim Watts and Travis Reier behind open mics? Anything from Alabama sports and recruiting to the latest trends in pop culture.  As for their latest installment on the BamaOnLine podcast, TR served up 10 questions to Tim: -- How did UA finish 2022 cycle and how much did transfer portal help? -- After historic class, is everyone chasing Jimbo Fisher and the Aggies on the recruiting trail? -- As far as coaching staff movement is concerned, biggest surprise to date? -- Is the race for top in-state prospect for 2023 cycle tight or is No. 1 already sewn up? -- Between transfers, NFL decisions, etc …, most surprising departure for UA since end of the season?   -- On the heels of Senior Bowl week, how many first rounders for Alabama? -- What is this Alabama men's basketball team missing? -- Does JD Davison still project as a one and done? -- What is Tim's current Super Bowl excite-o-meter level? -- Optimism level for a Major League Baseball season that isn't altered by lockout? -- Candy holiday power rankings: Valentines, Halloween, Easter, Christmas. -- Netflix/stream etc … update. * Round Table Mailbag includes: 2023 QB Nico Iamaleava; What if for Alabama OC spot; Favorite non in-state recruit for 2023; Continued in-state impact for upcoming class; Early thoughts on impact of 2022 signees for next season; The BamaOnLine Podcast is now on Apple Podcasts as well as Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher. Please subscribe, and leave us a rating and a review! Contact Travis Reier by personal message or on Twitter (@travisreier). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Time to Teach Tim is back with a hot one, Charlie Potthoff, a long time friend of mine and a certified green thumb came down to teach Tim How to Grow Weed. Just in time for legalization, Tune in and pick up some tricks and share your own in the comments!

Tim – How can we rise above the deluge of evil we are facing these days? Prof placed on leave after saying sexual attraction to kids not always immoral (we first reported on this story in yesterday's show) Nancy – When God relents and allows divorce to Moses, what kind of a message does that […]

TranscriptCorey: This episode is sponsored in part byLaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visitlaunchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Jesse: Hello, and welcome to AWS Morning Brief: Fridays From the Field. I'm Jesse DeRose.Amy: I'm Amy Negrette.Tim: And I'm Tim Banks.Jesse: This is the podcast within a podcast where we talk about all the ways we've seen AWS used and abused in the wild with a healthy dose of complaining about AWS for good measure. Today, we're going to be talking about a recent addition to the AWS family: AWS Application Cost Profiler.Tim: But hold on for a second, Jesse, because AWS Application Cost Profiler we can get to; that's rather unremarkable. I really want to talk about how impressed I am with AWS InfiniDash. I've been benchmarking this thing, and it is fan… tastic. It's so good. And we could probably talk about for a while, but suffice to say that I am far more impressed with AWS InfiniDash than I am with AWS Application Cost Profiler.Jesse: You know, that's fair. And I feel like InfiniDash should absolutely get credit where credit is due. I want to make sure that everybody can really understand the full breadth of everything that InfiniDash is able to accomplish. So, I want to make sure that we do get to that; maybe in a future episode, we can touch on that one. But for right now, I have lots of feelings about AWS Application Cost Profiler, and what better place to share those feelings than with two of my favorite people, Amy and Tim, and then all of you listeners who are listening in to this podcast. I can't wait to dive into this. But I think we should probably start with, what is AWS Application Cost Profiler?Amy: It is [unintelligible 00:01:54] in a trench coat.Jesse: [laugh].Amy: Which is the way AWS likes to solve problems sometimes. And in this case, it's talking about separating billing costs by tenants by service, which is certainly a lot of things that people have problems with.Jesse: That is a lot of buzzwords.Amy: A lot of words there.Jesse: Yeah. Looking at the documentation, the sales page, “AWS Application Cost Profiler is a managed service that helps us separate your AWS billing and costs by the tenants of your service.” That has a lot of buzzwords.Tim: Well, to be fair, that's also a majority of the documentation about service.Jesse: Yeah, that is fair. That is a lot of what we saw, and I think we'll dive into that with documentation in a minute. But I do want to call out before we dive into our thoughts on this service—because we did kick the tires on this service and we want to share what our experience was like, but I do want to call out that this problem that AWS Application Cost Profiler is trying to solve. This idea of cost allocation of shared resources, it is a real, valid problem and it is one that is difficult to solve.Amy: And we've had clients that have had this very explicit problem and our findings have been that it's very difficult to accurately splice usage and spend against what's essentially consumption-based metrics—which is how much a user or request is using all the way along your pipeline—if they're not using dedicated resources.Jesse: Yeah, when we talk about cost allocation, generally speaking, we talk about cost allocation from the perspective of tagging resources, broadly speaking, and moving resources into linked accounts and separating spend by linked accounts, or allocating spend by linked accounts. But if you've got a shared compute cluster, a shared database, any kind of shared resources where multiple tenants are using that infrastructure, slapping one tag on it isn't going to solve the issue. Even putting all of those shared resources in a single linked account isn't going to solve that issue. So, the problem of cost allocation for shared resource is real; it is a valid problem. So, let's talk specifically about AWS Application Cost Profiler as a solution for this problem. As I mentioned, we kicked the tires on this solution earlier this week and we have some thoughts to share.Tim: I think one of the main things around this AWS Application Profiler like I said, there's some problems that can be solved there, there's some insights that people really want to gain here, but the problem is people don't want to do a lot more work or rewrite their observability stack to do it. The problem is, that's exactly what AWS Cost Profiler seems to be doing or seems to want you to do. It doesn't get data from, I think it only gets data from certain EC2 services, and it's just, it's doing things that you can already do in other tools to do aggregation. And if I'm going to do all the work to rewrite that stack, to be able to use the Profiler, am I going to want to spend that time doing something else? I mean, that kind of comes to the bottom line about it.Jesse: Yeah, the biggest thing that I ran into, or that I experienced when we were setting up the Cost Profiler, is that documentation basically said, “Okay, configure Cost Profiler and then submit your data.” And [unintelligible 00:05:54] stop, like wait, what? Wait, what do you mean, ‘submit data?' And it said, “Okay, well now that you've got Cost Profiler as a service running, you need to upload all of the data that Cost Profiler is going to profile for you.” It boggles my mind.Tim: And it has to be in this format, and it has to have these specific fields. And so if you're not already emitting data in that format with those fields, now you have to go back and do that. And it's not really solving any problems, but it offers to create more problems.Amy: And also, if you're going to have to go through the work of instrumenting and managing all that data anyway, you could send it anywhere you wanted to. You could send it to your own database to your own visualization. You don't need Profiler after that.Jesse: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, Amy. AWS Cost Profiler assumes that you already have this data somewhere. And if not, it explicitly says—in its documentation it says, to generate reports you need to submit tenant usage data of your software applications that use shared AWS resources. So, it explicitly expects you to already have this data. And if you are going to be looking for a solution that is going to help you allocate the cost of shared resources and you already have this data somewhere else, there are better solutions out there than AWS Application Cost Profiler. As Amy said, you can send that data anywhere. AWS Application Cost Profiler probably isn't going to be the first place that you think of because it probably doesn't have as many features as other solutions.Amy: If you were going to instrument things to that level, and let's say you were using third-party services, you could normalize your own data and build out your own solution, or you can send it to a better data and analytics service. There are more mature solutions out there that require you to do less work.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by ChaosSearch. You could run Elastic Search or Elastic Cloud or Open Search, as they're calling it now, or a self hosted out stack. But why? ChaosSearch gives you the same API you've come to know and tolerate, along with unlimited data retention and no data movement. Just throw your data into S3 and proceed from there as you would expect. This is great for IT operations folks, for App performance monitoring, cyber security. If you're using ElasticSearch consider not running ElasticSearch. They're also available now on the AWS market place, if you prefer not to go direct and have half of whatever you pay them count toward your EDP commitment. Discover what companies like, Klarna, Equifax, Armor Security and Blackboard already have. To learn more visit chaossearch.io and tell them I sent you just so you can see them facepalm yet again.Jesse: I feel like I'd missed something, broadly speaking. I get that this is a preview, I get that this is a step on the road for this solution, and I'm hoping that ultimately AWS Application Cost Profiler can automatically pull data from resources. And also, not just from EC2 compute resources, but from other shared services as well. I would love this service to be able to automatically dynamically pull this data from multiple AWS services that I already use. But this just feels like a very minimal first step to me.Tim: And let's be honest; AWS has a history of putting out services before they're ready for primetime, even if they're GA—Jesse: Yeah.Tim: —but this seems so un-useful that I'm not sure how it made it past the six-pager or the press release. It's disappointing for a GA service from AWS.Amy: What would you both like to see, other than it just being… more natively picked up by other services?Tim: I would like to see either a UI for creating the data tables that you're going to need, or a plugin that you can automatically put with those EC2 resources: an agent you can run, or a sidecar, or a collector that you just enable to gather that data automatically. Because right now, it's not really useful at all. What it's doing is basically the same thing you can do in an Excel spreadsheet. And that's being very, very honest.Jesse: Yeah, I think that's a really good point that ultimately, a lot of this data is not streamlined and that's ultimately the thing that is the most frustrating for me right now. It is asking a lot of the customer in terms of engineering time, in terms of design work, in terms of implementation details, and I would love AWS to iterate on this service by providing that dynamically, making it easier to onboard and use this service.Amy: Personally, what I would like is some either use case, or demonstration, or tutorial that shows how to track consumption costs using non-compute resources like Kinesis especially, because you're shoving a lot of things in there and you just need to be able to track these things and have that show up in some sort of visualization that's like Cost Explorer. Or even have that wired directly to Cost Explorer so that you can, from Cost Explorer, drill down to a request and be able to see what it is actually doing, and what it's actually costing. I want a lot of things.Jesse: [laugh]. But honestly, I think that's why we're here, you know? I want to make these services better. I want people to use the services. I want people to be able to allocate costs of shared resources. But it is still a hard problem to solve, and no one solution has quite solved it cleanly and easily yet.You know what? Amy, to get back to your question, that's ultimately what I would love to see, not just specifically with an AWS Application Cost Profiler necessarily, but I would love to see better native tools in AWS to help break out the cost of shared resources, to help break out and measure how tenants are using shared resources in AWS, natively. More so than this solution.Amy: I would love that. It would make so many things so much easier.Jesse: Mm-hm. I'm definitely going to be adding that to my AWS wishlist for a future episode.Tim: How many terabytes is your AWS wishlist right now?Jesse: Oh… it is long. I, unfortunately, have made so many additions to my AWS wishlist that are qualitative things—more so than quantitative things—that just aren't going to happen.Amy: You become that kid at Christmas that, they get onto Santa's lap in the mall, and it's a roller page that just hops off the platform, and just goes down the wall, and all the other kids are staring at you and ready to punch you in the face when you get off. [laugh].Jesse: [laugh]. All right, well that'll do it for us this week, folks. If you've got questions you'd like us to answer please go to lastweekinaws.com/QA, fill out the form and we'd be happy to answer that question on a future episode. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review and give it a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review, give it a five-star rating on your podcast platform of choice and tell us how you allocate the costs of shared resources.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Tim qualified and worked in the litigation department of what is now the City law firm, Dentons before joining the Standard Chartered Banking Group, where he held a number of senior operational legal and compliance positions in London, Singapore, India and the UAE. Tim now divides his time equally between Lessons Learned Ltd, his award-winning company specializing in the provision of integrity and financial crime business education and consulting services to an international client base, particularly for boards, senior management teams and staff in high risk business units and CDDPro Ltd, an AI start-up delivering intelligent customer onboarding and remediation solutions. Tim is a member of the EBRD's panel of experts on Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing and the author of “Countering Terrorist Finance: A Training Handbook for Financial Services” and “Mastering Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorist Financing”, the 2nd edition of which was published by the Financial Times in January of 2020. Join our CEO, Ian Henderson who finds out from Tim: How he describes the state of compliance training today How he has seen compliance training evolve over the past 5 years What he most commonly sees organisations get wrong What is the future of financial crime going to look like What are three pieces of advice he has for Senior Managers at banks looking to better train their staff.

Improving movement options is legit, but at what cost? We know that this breathing stuff works, but are there drawbacks to this approach? Can we really make the changes “stick?” These are a few of the many problems that Dr. Tim Richardt and I sift through, in a podcast where the script is flipped and Tim interviews me. In this podcast, you'll learn: How I structure my own training What's better, time management or energy management? Forget following your passion, focus on this instead What my biggest failure was and what it taught me? The dichotomy of the type A personality Movement behaviors: How do we get them to "stick" The dark side of internal cueing The best way to communicate effectively to clients and more! Is there a darkside to all this movement stuff? Is there a better way? Look here to watch the interview, listen to the podcast, get the show notes, and read the modified transcripts. Learn more about Tim Tim Richardt is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, Strength and Conditioning Coach, and Owner of Richardt Performance and Rehabilitation located in Denver, CO. He specializes in the treatment and preparation of humans that like to run, lift, or play in the mountains. He currently offers personal training, physical therapy, and professional mentorship services. His website More Train, Less Pain Podcast – Tim's podcast that is specifically designed around engineering the adaptable athlete. Instagram: @Tim_Richardt_dpt Show notes Here are links to things mentioned in the interview: Elevate Sports Performance and Healthcare - Where ya boi works Francis Hoare - An excellent coach who works with me at Elevate. How to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big by Scott Adams - One of my favorite books. This book taught me to emphasize systems over goals Millionaire Fastlane by Mj DeMarco - This book completely flipped all that I know about business upside down. Unscripted by MJ DeMarco - This book will keep you pushing forward in all things business Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink - A book that helped me take ownership of all my own problems. The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday - If you are going through a tough time, this read is essential. The Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday - This book will help squash any ego issues you may have The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck - Basically modern Buddhism. A must-read Everything is Fucked: A Book About Hope - Why hope is BS and how to start a religion. It's an awesome book. Aline Thompson - One of the best PTs in the Denver area. Georgie Fear - My incredible nutrition coach. A master at behavior change Lorimer Moseley - One of the best pain researchers in existence. David Grey - An excellent physio Gary Ward - All things foot, he's the guy Seth Oberst - One of the best at all things trauma-related from a movement perspective. I reviewed his course here. Michelle Boland - Coach Bo. One of the best coaches in da game. I reviewed her course here. Boo Schexnayder: Rehab Insights from Track and Field - This podcast made me appreciate intensity and its importance How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie - The OG book on interacting with others. The Truth Detector by Jack Schafer - An awesome read on elicitation and interaction with others. Bill Hartman - Daddy-O Pops himself. My mentor. Modified Transcripts How I structure training Tim: So, my man, I thought we could start with your own training. And I'm wondering if you could describe the last workout that you personally did? Zac: Well, that would have been yesterday. I train mostly at night after work. Yesterday, it was chin-up day. I start with vision exercises because I did some vision therapy, so I'm just trying to maintain the visual skills that I currently struggle with, which is the ability to diverge. So, divergence is the eyes moving apart. You basically stretch them out, which is kind of like external rotation of the eyes, if you can think about that way, which is expansion. And guess who doesn't have that? Ya boy, same thing with everyone else. So, I do some moves to work on divergence, but then focusing within the divergence, which is accommodation. I spent a few minutes doing that. And then my warmup, I kind of do the same thing. I just roll around on the ground for a while, do just a few moves to - yes, I just literally - they were finishing class at Elevate and Francis is like, "Don't worry about the Ninja who works here in the background." Which was funny. So, just warm-up and then... Tim: Just some spinning flying kicks? Zac: Yes. Something like that. Tim: Yes. Like three sets of five...? Zac: Nunchucks. Tim: Sure. Zac: Yes. Tim: Yes, of course. I saw those in your office. Zac: Yes. Tim: I was going to ask about that. Zac: Once I do that, then I do my main move for the day, which yesterday involved post-activation potentiation combo. So, I'll do med ball throws up against the wall, rotational-style, and then chin-ups with some weight. I did these in the 3-6 rep range until I can't do that anymore. And then I ended up doing a trap bar squat and overhead press. https://youtu.be/CJgcqP_X8jM And then I usually do like a circuit of some - like something single leg. I did like a single-leg squat off a box. I do pushups. I do one-arm dumbbell row. And then, like the body saw. I did a circuit of that with just, you know, whatever reps I need. https://youtu.be/uBRYEyebmAY And then sometimes I'll follow with conditioning. But I did my favorite conditioning yesterday, which is kicking my man Francis ass and spike ball. Boom! You heard it internet. We usually play spike ball once a week and we have some good competition. We both have gotten pretty good. We did this thing where we were just playing Spikeball one on one for months because we both sucked. Tim: Sure? Zac: We didn't tell anyone. Tim: One on one spike ball? Zac: Yes. It's weird, but it's fun. And so, Francis was killing me and I can't have that happen because I hate losing in all things. So, I'm like consuming YouTube videos and figuring out how to serve. And so, now I can serve with both hands... Tim: Walking around with the spike balk all the time and go for it? Zac: Yes. And so, now we have some great games and we're just like hitting it way good. And we finally played two on two, not together, but it was way more competitive than we ever did. So, that was the skill that I learned. And that was my training session. Tim: How do you think kind of in the macro about structuring your own training? Like, do you have short, medium long-term training goals, and you kind of period eyes to accomplish those? Or are you more like a fly by the seat of your pants kind of guy? Zac: I have my main moves that I alternate between. So, what stays the same, and I got this, it's the mass effect program from Daddy-o Pops himself, Bill Hartman, just with some slight modifications. It looks like this: Lift one: 4-6 reps Lift 2: 6-8 reps Lift3: 10-12 You do each of these until you fatigue out of those rep ranges. And then I just do, you know, two to three rounds of whatever else I feel like I need, which can be like eight to 12 reps. And if there's a day I need to condition, I'll do that. If I want to do some extra arm farm, I do that. So, the three mains are there. I keep trying to get better at them. But the other stuff just varies depending on what I'm feeling. Because my main goal training-wise is just to look good naked. Tim: Okay. Zac: And maintain decent body comp. Tim: No, more fat Zac? Zac: Yes. Fat Zac is done. Tim: Fat Zac's not coming back? Zac: He's done. Tim: That guy was fun though. Zac: He was fun. Yes. He had the beard. He is like a young Santa. Tim: Couldn't touch his toes. Zac: Yes. Definitely couldn't squat. I still can't touch my toes, but I can squat now. So yes. And then like, you mentioned like periodization, I need to train enough that someone can take me seriously from a movement standpoint. It's kind of like looking the part when you're being a PT because I do think that that matters to some extent. https://youtu.be/UEZZEWyBN78 Tim: Yes. Zac: But right now, the highest priority is work, teaching, all that stuff, learning the craft. And so, that's always going to be the A1 for right now. Tim: The A1 of life. Yes. A2 is fitness. Time management vs energy management Tim: You gifted me a Scott Adams book about five or six months ago. In it, he talks a lot about this myth of time management and argues that time isn't necessarily the resource that we should be seeking to manage, but it's instead energy. And that in managing your own energy and taking on projects that seem to give you energy rather than drain them or tackling endeavors that seem to increase energy, you can get a lot more done versus just trying to very efficiently kind of micromanage your own time. So, you're one of the most kind of efficient, effective, prolific people that I personally know within our field. What do you think about this energy management concept? Is that something that kind of lets you do the amount of work that you do? Zac: It's very easy to waste time on frivolous things and I try to do my best to minimize that now. But I think because I have a little bit more freedom to do that now. I can, I think, for example, a couple of years ago I had the shackles of student loans, so it's like, I'll take on anything I can do to try to manage that. But I do think about that when I'm thinking about things that don't bring joy into my life, like social media, for example. Tim: Sure. Zac: I try to stay off that as much as humanly possible. Because it does take energy, even answering texts. Like I'm horrendous about getting back to people via text message or phone calls because I eliminated notifications on that. Because even that takes energy out. Tim: Yes. Zac: Even being around certain people who suck the life out of you... Tim: Exactly the black hole type of thing? Zac: Yes. But at the same time, I do think time management to some extent is important as well because, sometimes you might have to do things that are energy-draining, but they help move the needle forward. Does he talk about following your passion as well and how that's BS? Tim: Yes. Zac: Okay. Tim: And I've probably had that conversation with like 10 people over the past week that like passion is fleeting. It's, you know, rocket fuel, but it's not actually going to sustain you over the longer. It opposes a lot of advice that you conventionally hear. Zac: Yes. Well, what you have to do and there's another good guy you should read it. I might have an extra book. I'll give it to you. MJ DeMarco. He wrote "The Millionaire Fast Lane" and "Unscripted." He talks about that as well in the sense that you don't want to do things that you're passionate about. You want to do things that are going to have a positive impact on the world and change things forever. And then if you do that and you make enough money from that, you eventually will become passionate about it becauseyou're making an impact. Tim: Yes. Zac: I love video games, but I'm not going to be making money, playing video games unless I started... Tim: I was thinking about Twitch and Onlyfans. And I'm like, is there a way to combine those concepts and maybe have people pay you to watch you play video games in a reduced amount of clothing? Zac: Haha right? But even with that, sure, you can make money, but Twitch is not going to change the world. Tim: Sure. Zac: And I want to try to make the little world that I'm in, that we're in, a better place in that sense. And that's really the crux of what I do. That's why I try to take complex things and simplify them so most people can carry it out. I have a lot of good friends who are really smart, but they might not be able to devote the time and energy to diving deep into topics because maybe they got kids to worry about and all this stuff and well, they still patients to take care of. Tim: Yes. Zac: And so, if I can help that person get better a little bit faster, then I think we all win. Tim: I mean, and is doing that something that you find gives you more energy than it drains or drains kind of a minimal amount of energy? Zac: Yes, absolutely. I could teach, talk all the time. I love that. Even doing these podcasts. It's so much fun and then it's just time flies by. Because then it's also, you're just interacting with people and... Tim: Also real-life people. Zac: I know. Right? The failure that changed everything Tim: That's useful. I think along the same lines of that book, it's in the title that he's amassed a massive amount of failures and yet still is an extraordinary success. Thinking about kind of your own life professionally in the past five or 10 years, what are some of your favorite failures? Zac: Professional basketball. The thing that I had going into that was getting to pro basketball kind of a big deal. And I probably let that get to my head a little bit. I think I had a little bit of a Dunning-Kruger effect kicking in. Even though like I still would say back then, I was a pretty good practitioner. I'm much better now. But I think I let that get the best of me that I was in that setting. I can't say that that's why I was fired, but after that happened, it completely flipped everything. I did a lot of soulsearching during that time period. And there were four books that I read that just like changed everything. Tim: I bet I know one of them. Zac: Which one? Tim: "Extreme Ownership." Zac: That was definitely one of them. That was one, "The Obstacles is the Way," "Ego is the Enemy” both by Ryan Holiday and then "The Subtle Art of not Giving a Fuck." by Mark Manson. I read those four and that's when I realized my behaviors, my issues were the problem. And I was able to do things to flip that and just be more humble, reacquire the beginner's mindset, interact better with peers and people who I'm working with. And it really made a big difference. And I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that I was out of that situation. It pushed me towards more of what I really like, which is this. And the fact that now I have a bit more freedom flexibility than I did in the league, was huge. That's probably the biggest failure that has flipped things for me. [caption id="attachment_13675" align="aligncenter" width="375"] the failure that led to this[/caption] Tim: Going back to something that we discussed, like removing things in your life that are not really serving you. The hard truth is those are people and probably people that you've known a really long time. And you know, If you can't kind of reflect back on your own life and make a decision about which people you're spending time with, you're liable to get trapped in a lot of, and trap is probably a strong word, but waste the resource of energy on relationships that aren't getting you to where you want to go. Zac: Is that something that you ever struggled with? When you knew you had to move on from a situation or a person? Tim: Yes. The job I took right out of school being a director of rehab in rural Colorado. That was so nice because it was lucrative. It was flexible. I think I could still do a lot of the things that I wanted to, because it was a three-day work week. In a lot of ways, it was the perfect situation, but it didn't have any upward trajectory to it. I started at the ceiling. I'm immensely grateful that I had that opportunity. And I think it changed me for the better, in many ways. But after my three years and change out there, I knew it was time to do something else. Something that had a little bit more of an avenue for growth. Zac: Yes. It's hard when you get comfortable like that because the chance of getting stagnant is significantly higher. And so, you always got to put yourself in slightly uncomfortable positions, I think, to really grow. Tim: Yes. It's a really interesting juxtaposition. I mean, that's something I think about all the time that type A people, kind of people like you and I, a lot of what drives us is we're not happy with the way things are. But if you let that mindset pervade everything, then you never really enjoy what you have. So, it's a really interesting tight rope to balance kind of, as physical therapists, as athletes, as human beings, how do we hold these two seemingly opposing ideas in our head simultaneously and not kind of fall apart? Zac: Yes. That's hard. Tim: Yes. Zac: I definitely let that bleed into areas that it shouldn't bleed into. Tim: Yes. Some things in life are just fine and they're okay the way they are. They don't need to be optimized. Zac: Yes. There are some things too that you got to just keep pushing. Tim: Absolutely. I mean, that's how people do great things. You're not going to just get this great opportunity kind of plopped in your lab. Zac: How do you find the balance? You probably are better than me. Tim: I don't know. I don't think I have a really good answer. I was talking to a mutual friend that we have, Aline Thompson. She was mentioning this friend that she has an incredibly high-powered tech broker of some type, makes boatloads of money. But he's a really, really good chef. And he says that the second he no longer has time to cook each day, that's the line in the sand that he draws between. That means he's striving too much. That means he's packing so much into his day that he can't just enjoy what he already has, which is quality time doing something good for himself, for his family, for his children. That really hit home. I love to cook as well. I also like to play Frisbee with my dog, Molly. If I can't take 10 or 15 minutes to do that like that's another - like I just want that to be built into my day-to-day. And then if I can maintain these things and then continue to strive and see certain life, key performance indicators trending in the right direction, I am doing an okay job. Zac: That's something I probably struggle with because I'm thinking about like, as you were saying that I'm like, "That's brilliant. Like everyone needs to find their cooking." And I don't know what mine is. Tim: I think for a lot of people it's working out. Zac: Yes. Tim: Probably not in our industry, because I think we are the people that will probably sacrifice in order to train and train at very inconvenient times. But I think for 99% of the American population, that's one of the early things to go. Zac: Yes. That's very reasonable. See, I can't fathom not having that. It's so automatic at this point that - there was one time where maybe I didn't work out and I'm like, I'll notice that one day, if I had a plan to workout, I can't do it. But I've never gotten to the point where I've worked so much that I've had to cut that out. Tim: And you do, and it's like a super power. But you go about the rest of your day supercharged, you know that you've done something that's probably more difficult than 90% of the people that you're going to interact with have completed that day. Especially for people like I'm a big morning trainer. Zac: Really? Tim: Yes. I'd love to train at like 6:00 AM or 7:00 AM. And that's recent. That's as I've gotten older, but in terms of the Scott Adams concept of adding energy to your life, it's like, that is something that so acutely drains you of energy and yet so quickly fills you right back up. Zac: Yes. It is interesting how that works. Isn't it? Can we get postural changes to stick? Tim: You and I, both physical therapists, we commonly see people that present with particular movement behaviors or positions. And I think one of the most pervasive ideas in our industry is that there's a bad posture or a bad position. Right? Like extension, anterior, pelvic tilt, rotation. What have you? Zac: Oh sure. Tim: There's this idea that there are these bad postures and people have bad postures and well just swap it out for a good posture and they're going to be good to go. Something you and I have talked about before is these postures positions, movement behaviors emerge in order to solve a particular problem? To manage gravity, to breathe, to better prepare you for a training stressor that you've experienced before. So, I guess how do you think about replacing a less than ideal movement behavior or pattern with a better one, because that's kind of what we do with these resets, with these drills to regain mobility? And how do you think about making that intervention like quote-unquote, "sticky" enough so that a person doesn't revert back as quickly as possible? Zac: I don't think it's replacing one for another. I think the key is giving more options. So, for example, if we go with like the forward head, I'm sitting at the chair for an extended period of time, you do that long enough, something might get cranky just because of tissue ischemia or whatever. At the same time, if you sit perched upright and have a good posture, and you hold that long enough, you could probably run into similar issues. [caption id="attachment_13676" align="aligncenter" width="376"] Cranky AF[/caption] But if you can get into each of those and a bazillion more, well, then you're never really overloading any specific areas. And I think it makes you more adept to surviving in several different environments. And I think really that's the key and that's like, what movement variability is all about is you need as many different ways to perform the task as possible even if you're getting the same consistent output. So, like if I did 10 squats and even though they looked exactly the same to the naked eye, if I have to remove that variability, there should be subtle differences with each one of those squats, but it's when I don't have those options available that problem ensue Tim: In both coordinative and endpoint variability. Zac: Exactly. I think that's really where the money is. Now, how do we get that to stick? It's basically, getting people into positions that they can't normally get into or struggle maintaining into and then being able to demonstrate that at progressive intensities and complexities. So, for example, you know, if we look at you and you know because we worked together for a minute. In the beginning, we started with some simple drills, some single leg positions, more supportive, really emphasized breathing. And look at where you're ay when we worked together the other day. Now we're giving you loaded-based strategies... Tim: Kicking ass, taking in? Zac: Yes, yes. Getting you a ridiculous pump. But the thought process is still there because you have the same needs, but can you maintain the positions that we had you get into that we'll get you those needs under higher intensities? Yesterday he did. Tim: And I like that. It's just it's incredibly intriguing to me, this notion that human beings lose movement options, either via physical structure or secondary training adaptations, lifestyle factors. And then it kind of, and I say this as a physical therapist who makes these changes on a daily basis, it shocks me that anything that we do has the power to override whatever stimulus came before to lead to that decrease in variability. Zac: Yes. Tim: You know what I mean? Zac: Yes. Because you're looking at reps time, all that stuff. Tim: Right. I mean, it's almost to think anything in the gym could actually have that prolonged, have an effect. I mean, it also brings up the issue of in a perfect world. Nobody would need activities to regain movement options. That would be the goal, right? You just walk into the gym and you train and your body adapts to the training with no deleterious secondary consequences. That's obviously not the world that we live in, but it does seem like some people need a far lesser volume of these reset low-level types of activities. And they can kind of progress away from that over time. Whereas some people, for whatever reason, you know, need that consistent manual therapy, stimulus or consistent low-level stimulus in order to make these changes stick. Zac: Yes. Well, I think the key is the body has to deem it meaningful and novel and salient. And I'll give you an example. If let's say, you witnessed something terrible happened, anything. Something of 9/11 proportions and it happened right before your eyes. You would remember that for the rest of your life. And it might be just one moment, one instance. And that could shape and shift everything that you thought before that. And I remember when I listened to Lorimer Moseley, he was talking about - I think my buddy Eric was talking about how taking NSAIDs could impair learning. And Lorimer gave the analogy if someone shot a gun right by you, you would remember that that happened, even if you were dosed up on NSAIDS. Tim: Sure. Zac: Of it's meaningful and novel enough, I think it could still lead to long-lasting changes. Tim: Right. Zac: Right? Now, does that mean the equivalent of you doing quadraped breathing is something like witnessing a horrific event? No. But your body might deem it novel and meaningful enough that it does remember that. And it does stick for some people. Tim: Yes. Zac: So, my point by bringing that up is we just don't know what's going to cause things to stick. Whereas some people might need continual reinforcement over and over and over again to get meaningful change. Tim: Something that, like David Gray and Gary Ward talk about all the time is, essentially that same thing, putting people in positions. But then if the nervous system likes that position, it'll remember that position and there's no need to revisit it as long as that's what it reaches for the next time it tries to solve a particular environmental or movement task. And that kind of makes some sense to me because if we think again about the Genesis of these like maladaptive, postures and positions, they are trying to solve a problem, get air in, maintain your ability to view your monitor while you're sitting in a chair, they don't emerge for no reason. This is a Seth Oberst quote, but everybody's body is doing exactly what it needs to do. The dark side of sensorimotor cueing Tim: What you and I do with people involves a high degree of sensorimotor cueuing, right? Having people maintain particular positions. Do you think that there's a potential dark side to sensorimotor cueuing and that it might put people sort of two in their own bodies if kind of left unchecked? If most of their program is find your heels, tuck your hips, breathe this particular way, shift left. Do you find yourself needing to pull that out at certain times for certain people when you design programs? Zac: Yes. I definitely think there's definitely a certain portion of people who can fall victim to that. Tim: Yes. What are those people typically like? I think I know what you're going to say, but I'm interested. Zac: Yes. They're almost hyper-aware of everything in a negative sense. And then that becomes their identity essentially. I feel twisted. I feel twerked. It's the person who gives me the laundry list of anatomical terminology that they shouldn't know, but they know. That can definitely be a problem because it's almost like when they get so intune to their bodies, but focusing only on the negatives. So, with those people, yes, a lot of it is education "It's no, you do not have to tuck your hips with every step you take every move you make." Tim: Because Zac's going to be watching you. Zac: Yes. In the creepiest way possible. Tim: From a deep squat with a really long beard. [caption id="attachment_13677" align="aligncenter" width="500"] Like a boss![/caption] Zac: Yes. And then just like, no, you don't have to feel your heels all the time when you walk and stuff like that. And it's educating them that, "Look, we're just using this as a strategy to increase your movement repertoire." And yes, I think if you can do that and frame the right mindset that can potentially mitigate some of that. Or I think that could also be where, especially when you get to loaded activities, a focus more towards external queuing might be useful. You know? Tim: I like that. I think something that Michelle Boland, Coach Bo, and I talk about frequently. Shout out to coach Bo. Is the need to have things in a programmer or in your life that just make you feel like you're a strong, capable human that doesn't need to think him or herself into positions to be able to execute a task. All of my practices have always been in CrossFit gyms. And I think that this is something that CrossFit gyms do incredibly well. And no CrossFit gym is perfect. And I have my issues with the moves that are commonly prescribed the over-reliance on barbells, but they do a really good job of getting people that haven't been doing anything intense and getting them to not fear doing a hang snatch, doing a deadlift from the ground. And I think that's really impactful in a completely different way. Because I think people like you and I take into one extreme sort of becoming those clinicians, those practitioners that are really potentially propagating a lot of this like fear of movement. Zac: It's something I definitely think about as well. Because I do get people who come to me and it's like, they've learned similar things to me, but they think about it in such a negative way. Like "I have to fix this anterior tilt." Well, if you're standing against gravity, you're always going to have that because that's the norm. There's a good podcast that Doug Kechijian did with Boo Schexnayder. He mentions that you should always be exposing them to intensity. And in order to produce intensity or move fast, you can't think, and relaxation is paramount. And I think if there's one thing it's probably shifted this year, is really appreciating that. But and here's where I still think respecting biomechanics comes in. You have to make sure that you choose activities that are appropriate for that individual, that they can execute without having the risk for potentially performing it in a negative manner. So, that could be doing a seated box jump, which it's almost like the constraints of the activity, get them into positions that they need to. Or, I've been using a lot of fake throws lately. https://youtu.be/riB-dGofs98 Tim: To load a cut? Zac: To load a cut or just to get them rotating pain-free or anything like that. Because you have to relax enough and move fast, but then you also have to stop fast. So, it kind of hits everything or just med ball throws. Like even though I talk a lot about biomechanics and stuff like that, if you look at how I actually program for someone, it has all of those other elements. And I keep the concepts the same and the progressions appropriate with within movement options that they have available. But they're not always having to think. They might think about the setup, but then when they're executing the movement, I don't have to think about anything. Because when you are thinking you can't move fast, that's when you get beat. Tim: Yes. That's what I like. I mean, one of my favorite lifts of all time is a single-arm dumbbell floor press, for that reason. Because like there's still enough range of motion to load and you can let 98% of people that would ever walk into your training facility can do that drill. https://youtu.be/oGKufR-a4Mg And the single-arm just forces some innate sense of not having the weight, rotate you off your back. T he goblet squats is another one. It's like, it's these things that people in our industry have been doing for a really long time, because they're just so simple and people can try hard, like you said, relax not think. Zac: Yes. Or like sleds, med ball throws, and carries. Those are all - if you have someone who is not exposed to much loading, that's a great way to produce intensity and not have to think "Oh, you know, man, I love machines." Love them. Tim: I know. We know you do. Zac: love them. In fact, one of my training is I'll load up the BFR cuffs and I'll go into my complex and just go ham on a leg press and all that. That's great. I look good for one day of the week. And that's my day for about 20 minutes. Tim: Got a sick leg pump. Zac: Yes. Just the veins out... Tim: Bursting out of your khakis? Zac: Exactly. How to maximize patient communication Tim: Speak to your journey in regards to your communication. How have you arrived at your current strategy for how to best communicate with probably both your clients and colleagues? How has that changed over the past five years? Zac: A lot. I was for a while, obsessed with learning about how to best interact with people. I think I was a pretty shy kid growing up. Quiet, uncertain of myself. But I found that whenever you got someone else talking, people would end up really liking you. Tim: Dale Carnegie. Zac: Honestly. Exactly. Yes. I forget the phrases that he says in his book? There's another one... Tim: Is it be interested, not interesting? Zac: Yes. Another quote I heard somewhere or this woman had met like these two higher-ups in English government and she talked to them about the first one. And she was like, "When I talked with this person, I thought he was the most interesting person in all of the UK." And then she said, "But when I talked to the other person, I thought I was the most interesting person in all of the UK." And that really hit home for me. And I try to, when I'm interacting with people, get that vibe. But at the same time too, the issue that I've run with when I've spent all of this time, learning with my interactions is in the beginning, I was just asking a lot of questions, almost interviewing people. And sometimes that can be off-putting if done in that way. So, to mitigate that, instead of asking a bunch of questions, there's a technique called elicitation that I've been experimenting with. And how people are going to be like," How is he eliciting me?" But basically, it's like getting information out of someone without coming off as a threatening thing. So, like if I come to Tim and I say, "Did you do this?" And say you did something wrong, whatever. Your inclination might be to go on the defense. And so, you might lie or you might say, "Well, yes I did. But it was because of this, this, this, this, and this." And that's not good. But if I wanted you to admit to that, I might say something or like a presumptive statement. It's like, "So what was it like when you did that?" Or "So you did X." And almost making assumptions to try to understand the other person or inferences based on what they said. I think helps build a greater connection because it shows that you not only are listening to them, but you're also understanding where they're coming from. And I think that's really important when it comes to human interaction and what I really focus on. And here's the cool thing about it. And there's actually a really good book by this FBI agent that goes into this, "If you're wrong about the assumption that I make..." Tim: The inference. Zac: The inference, that's still, doesn't lead to a negative interaction because people are so willing to correct any mistake that you make, but you'll still get the interaction. Like in the book, he talks about, if you're talking politics with someone, you might actually say someone has, I don't know, they say something and they're a Republican and you make the inference like, "Oh, well it sounds like something you might've gotten from FDR." And they might get so adamantly taking it back to like, "Like no, that's because Ronald Reagan did this, this and this." And so, then now you actually know their political bias and you didn't even have to ask... Tim: That direct question. Zac: Yes. And so, I think not having direct questioning can provide a lot more useful information because when you question can come off as interrogation. That's like some of the logistical things. But I think even more important than that is having good body language with someone. We were talking about Bill Clinton. One of my clients knows Bill pretty well; has met him multiple times. Everything you read about Bill in a positive light, obviously he's done some questionable things. But from an interaction standpoint, is a hundred percent true. And he has five different things that he thinks about when he's interacting with someone to build a rapport: Eye contact Close proximity The person's name Direction facing Tocuh Tim: Okay. Zac: So, like now if you do all of that at once, that can be a bit much. But if you're alternating among all of those variables, you can build an intimate connection with someone and have good rapport. And so, when I'm interacting with someone, I do think about those things. Not so overtly that it's like, "Okay, let's hit point number five." But those are things I think about incorporating whenever I'm interacting with someone, you know? And there's a reason why I try to sit on people's left most of the time, aside from it makes my neck more comfortable. And that's because the right hemisphere of your brain is where your emotional centers are. So, in theory, if I'm sending more information to that side, I could potentially build a greater emotional bond with you. Tim: Yes. Zac: You might be hearing this and it's like, "Oh gosh, this just sounds like every interaction is Zac making is this calculated thing." But it's not that. It's not if it's genuine. I think the reason why I dove into that so much is that I just wanted to connect with people, you know? Tim: Yes. Zac: I think back in my younger days, I was not in the best place mentally. I'm shy. And I didn't want that because human connection is something that we crave. So, if you can do anything that maximizes that, so it's beneficial for both parties or all parties involved. I don't think there's anything malicious about that. And that's something we should practice as a skill just like anything else. Tim: And it's intentional until it becomes automatic. Zac: Yes. Tim: And then it becomes automatic because frankly, a lot of those things are probably some of the best ways to connect with people. And I'm right there with you. Like you know, I think 90% of the reason why I do what we do is the ability to connect with people. I used to think it was the biomechanics and it's not, that evolves, that changes, but that connection... Zac: Absolutely. Tim: You know, we're in kind of rarefied air in terms of healthcare practitioners. Zac: Yes. And that's why I always wax and wane with manual therapy, but I always come back to it to some extent. Because touch is a form of connection. Tim: Yes. And its proximity without threat. Right. It's not this interview type of vibe. Zac: Yes, absolutely. Tim: Although we have a good 90-degree angle situation going on right now, [caption id="attachment_13679" align="alignnone" width="810"] Bruh on the left has it figured out (Image by uh_yeah_20101995 from Pixabay) [/caption] Zac: And there's a reason for that. So, and especially too, this is an interesting, a little difference between the sexes. If women, when they're interacting with each other, they generally face each other. And that's probably because they're generally more social creatures than us. They have more agreeableness and things of that nature. So, if you think back to like Hunter-gatherer times, that would be a useful thing. And so, that helps build more intimacy, but men who are close generally do not face each other. And the reason why is because when you're facing a man directly, it almost comes off as aggressive. Like you're going to challenge someone. So, that's why like, you know, bros, when they're hanging out, they're always like sitting. Right. And I think that there's a reason for that. And so, you can also based on whether it's someone's male or female, that can also influence the interaction depending on what direction you're trying to go. So, it's important. It's an important thing to recognize if you're working with people. Sum up Choose activities and people in your life that bring more energy, whioch will allow you to be a more productive member of society. Failure allows you to learn from your mistakes and create the life you want to live. You must push to great, but reconcile that some things are good as is. Movement beheavior change requires novelty, which is different for everyone. Sensorimotor cueing can have negative impacts on certain people; mitigate this through education and appropriate exercise selection. Pleasant interactions are acheived by being interested, elicitative language, and effective nonverbal communication.

Pretty much everyone around the world agrees that 2020 was a challenging year and we’re glad it’s all but over. However, 2020 was a year we upped the number of guests (to 90), upped our reading habits (20+ books for the show), and had more authors as guests than in any previous year. In short, Kurt and Tim read a lot of new books. And because we read bunches of them, we’re here to save you time by offering you our view of the top 10 books – 5 from Kurt and 5 from Tim – on behavioral science from 2020. We hope you enjoy them as much as we did – and as always, let us know what you think! For quick reference, here’s our list with links for your enjoyment. And here’s to happy reading in 2021! Top Book List from Kurt “Behave,” by Robert Sapolsky: https://amzn.to/3p5MJWF “Good Habits, Bad Habits,” by Wendy Wood: https://amzn.to/3p6v1lK “Scarcity,” by Eldar Shafir and Sendhil Mullainathan: https://amzn.to/3nsMS62 “Think Like a Rocket Scientist,” Ozan Varol: https://amzn.to/34n8OI7 “Before You Know It,” by John Bargh: https://amzn.to/3r7SbtT Top Book List from Tim “How to Decide,” by Annie Duke: https://amzn.to/38nHsmK “Behavioral Insights,” by Michael Hallsworth and Elspeth Kirkman: https://amzn.to/2WsJ1Kr “Alchemy,” by Rory Sutherland: https://amzn.to/2LEwRfd “Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don’t, and Why,” by Steve Martin & Joe Marks: https://amzn.to/38gRHsH “Unleash Your Primal Brain,” by Tim Ash: https://amzn.to/3gYM1rr   Honorable Mentions “Elevate,” by Robert Glazer “Designing for Behavior Change,” by Steve Wendel “Invisible Influences,” by Jonah Berger “White Fragility,” Robin DeAngelo “The All-Or-Nothing Marriage: How the Best Marriages Work,” by Eli Finkel “The Power of Bad,” by Roy Baumeister and John Tierney “Better, Not Perfect,” by Max Bazerman “Time Smart,” by Ashley Whillans “Blindsight: the mostly hidden ways marketing shapes our brains,” by Prince Ghuman and Matt Johnson Thanks for listening and we hope you find your groove with these books! © 2020 Behavioral Grooves

In the first episode of season three, Tim and Tuesday talk with Cyndi Suarez, author of The Power Manual, where they explore the complexities of power and language. Join us for an invigorating, heartfelt and insightful conversation. Together, Tim Merry and Tuesday Ryan-Hart are THE OUTSIDE—systems change and equity facilitators who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward for progress, surfacing new mindsets for greater participation and shared impact.3.01 — SHOW NOTESTuesday: Today on the podcast, our first of Season III, we are talking with Cyndi Suarez. Cyndi is the Senior Editor at Nonprofit Quarterly, she’s the author of The Power Manual: How To Master Complex Power Dynamics, she’s worked as a strategy and innovation consultant with a focus on networks and platforms for social movements, and she studied feminist theory and organizational development for social change. Cyndi: In the last few years, I’ve realized a different form of leadership that I’ve been exploring and I’ve been calling it “Articulation Leadership.” Seeing the power in putting things that we want into words; how that just opens up different worlds and possibilities. Tim: A lot of what we [The Outside] do happens in the experience that people have with each other but it becomes vastly insufficient when you are talking to someone about some major transformation work, that they will feel has very high stakes to it, and then you’re like, you have to really experience it to know what we are talking about. And so, we’re really in a question of how do you use words to evoke something that in some ways is felt? And then there is something for me about whether we are developing a new language or is it about finding the right words for the moment? Those are the two big questions we are in. Cyndi: The work of translation - of being able to both dive deep for the depth that you need and to find common ground - is one of the biggest challenges of organizing for power. It often does require redefining these identities that have been put on us and at the same time you need to reconnect with a larger table. Tuesday: When you talked about translation or connection; there’s a piece that is strategy. Part of it is grounding and deepening so we know what we’re doing and who we are to do it, but then there is also this piece around strategy that you just have to pay attention to. The reason we formed The Outside is because we felt like as we did systems change work there was very little power analysis and then in some of the movement-based spaces, there wasn’t much strategy to the level that you are talking about - not connecting out to make change. You have to do both to get you where you want to go. Cyndi: In my work, I am constantly challenging people to question the idea of shared strategy. Why? Why don’t we have a portfolio? Why do we have to agree? What do we have to agree on? This idea that we have to agree on everything is really extreme and tiring. It does not allow for the diversity that we have in our spaces. It doesn’t encourage it. I think there is a way that we need to be both humble and sophisticated in these conversations. We have to care enough and be curious enough about people. Being drawn towards difference is less explored especially in leadership and translation work. Tim: That bridging role is about power but also what we are often doing is pitching to people who hold wealth, influence, positional or hierarchical authority something that in many ways will undermine the established power that they have or the way they have got to that position of power. What’s the language that translates into positions of power - why power needs to be let go of and how does that begin to start shifting people’s fundamental beliefs about themselves and what it means to lead in today’s world? What’s the language that’s hard enough to bridge into the leadership worlds that we are currently engaging but soft enough to point to something new?Tuesday: Cyndi, you’ve just said so many interesting little nuggets… I am curious how you got to where you are?Cyndi: Since I was a kid, I always knew that I was going to write about power. I loved reading. Reading has always been a big part of my life. I am attracted to things that are different and that I don’t know. Tim: How do you stay tuned to this? Cyndi: I’m reading this book called Sacred Contract and one of the things that she says about people who tend to create something new or something big is that there is a point at which they have to go against the tribe. They always have to break from what is known to them in order to make their contribution. I think part of it is that. I came knowing and trusting myself and I have a spiritual practice - I am very inward focused. I spend a lot of time imagining what I want. My trajectory has been that I always end up doing exactly what I wanted to do. Tuesday: You feel so clear in your internal compass and there is an outward thing that is happening - you don’t feel afraid of ideas. It’s so unique. Also, please tell us about The Edge Institute. Cyndi: The Edge Institute grew out of the work that I do with Nonprofit Quarterly and The Power Manual. When we engage people of colour, in the sector, no matter what level of leadership they were in, people really wanted a different space, outside of their organization, to come and to think and to be with other leaders and to explore and create the new forms they want or suspect other people want. “Forms” is everything from subjectivity, to organizational form, to interactional frameworks… anything that is a form; that’s what this is a space for. It’s a larger thing than a project in a nonprofit world. Launching our interactive website in October 2020 - edgeleadership.orgFor more of Cyndi’s articles, or to reach out, visit her on Twitter @cyndisuarez or by visiting cyndisuarez.com Song: “Mountains,” by The Vision, feat. Andreya Triana (Danny Krivit Remix)Poem: PEACE, by AkalaPEACE Peace is on the way By the sword they say After this, this last blow Last chop, last drop After this, this last scream Last shout, last trample of boot Just one more, one last Rubble wreck where once were dreams housed Last plane, last flame, last sky Just one, one more naked Vietnamese girl Be she Russian, Israeli, Palestinian, Sudanese Or great, great, great, really great British Just one more placard wielding warrior And this last sword-slinging gunman One more song of machine metal Hurtling death to outrun life Just one more war Then we can have peaceSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 44:12Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Tim Leary joins us on the BlueBay Insights podcast to update on high yield and leveraged finance markets, with a special focus on the subject of liquidity.We asked Tim:How does the global high-yield universe breakdown in terms of the US and European split? Are there any notable differences between the two regions that investors should be aware of?What percentage of the US HY market trades enough to be considered liquid?In terms of active versus passive investing – how significant is the ETF portion of the universe?As an active manager, how do you define liquidity?Did you learn anything from the coronavirus crisis period about best-practice liquidity management or anything that particularly surprised you as a seasoned investor?Could you give us a quick liquidity outlook for the asset class and some positioning highlights as we approach the final quarter of the year?

This week on the show Jeff and Amy Jo hold on to their butts as they learn who almost got cast in the iconic blockbuster Jurassic Park! Which sci-fi star did Spielberg almost cast as Ellie? Which future Hollywood leading man auditioned for Tim? How bananas would James Cameron’s Jurassic Park have been? And what do we gotta do to get Andy Serkis voicing a dino in one of these sequels? Also – Amy Jo sells glasses to the stars, Jeff places bets on how dumb Dodgson’s upcoming return to the franchise will be, and the Muppets take Jurassic Park! Jurassic Park stars Sam Neill, Laura Dern, Jeff Goldblum, Richard Attenborough, Bob Peck, Martin Ferrero, BD Wong, Joseph Mazzello, Ariana Richards, Wayne Knight, and Samuel L Jackson; directed by Steven Spielberg

Tim Morse of SoCal apparel brand Richer Poorer discusses building an omnichannel DTC brand. In this episode you will learn from Tim:How a high-growth apparel brand successfully expanded from wholesale to direct-to-consumerCreative retail problem solving in the era of COVIDTransitioning from niche product categories to cross-category assortment and promotionTransitioning from a 3PL warehouse to owned distribution centerKey DTC KPIs including contribution margin ROI analysis of marketing campaigns and decisioning on customer lifetime value (CLV)Using ecommerce and DTC as demand signals for your wholesale buyers for omnichannel successYou can subscribe to the SoundCommerce Podcast on Spotify, iTunes and Stitcher to ensure that you do not miss any upcoming episodes.

For episode fifteen of season two, Tim and Tuesday are excited to introduce you to two members of the Outside Team, Bronagh Gallagher and Sommer Sibilly-Brown. We hear their perspectives, from two different parts of the world, on COVID-19 and talk about how we are not all experiencing this pandemic in the same way.Together, Tim Merry and Tuesday Ryan-Hart are THE OUTSIDE—systems change and equity facilitators who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward for progress, surfacing new mindsets for greater participation and shared impact.2.15 — SHOW NOTESTues: Today on the podcast, we have two Outsiders with us! Welcome, Sommer & Bronagh. Our podcast continues to be about this pandemic. We wanted to talk with some other folks on our team as it has become clear that not all of us are affected in the same way. We’re seeing in the news more and more everyday about how people are disproportionally affected. We thought it might be great to hear from the two of you, who are in very different parts of the world than Tim and I, to hear what’s happening there, what you’re noticing and we can ground this conversation of it’s happening to all of us but it’s not the same for all of us in our own lived experience. Tim: I feel this podcast is juxtaposed to a lot of the stuff that turns up on my social media - themes which are like, “now we’re discovering the great equalizer,” “we’re all in this together,” “finally there is a shared human experience”… and we are not all experiencing this the same. And so I think this podcast, is somewhat in response to that. Sommer Sibilly-Brown: I live in the St. Croix US Virgin Islands and in my day job, when I am not an Outsider, I run a food systems organization that focuses on food systems change. I live in a predominantly black and brown community and I have the awesome opportunity to work and learn with The Outside and its multiplicity of Outsiders; learning a lot more about equity, complexity science and really how we attack large-scale systems change so I can bring some of that work and that lens here to the Virgin Islands. Bronagh Gallagher: Based in Glasgow, Scotland. Been working for The Outside for over 1 year now - involved in prototyping, how to work with complex systems and also in this inquiry with you all around how to make systems change, equity systems change, and not just changing a system for the sake of it and building in old patterns. Bronagh: Some of the other work that I am actively involved in is around economic systems change related to climate breakdown and so really finding the parallels with the conversations I’ve been in around that versus where we are now with the pandemic in which a lot of the stuff that we have been arguing for, in order to create a better world for everyone, was completely off the table 3-4 months ago is now suddenly moving from the “politically impossible” to the “politically inevitable.” We’re seeing conversations about universal basic income, we’re seeing massive amounts of money suddenly being available when we were told that they weren’t… so that is really fascinating from a political perspective. The flip side of this is that around us, there is a really horrible virus killing people, it is being massively disruptive to people’s lives. Everyone I know is negotiating huge amounts of personal stress, health stress, family stress, work stress, and it’s such an intensely exhausting moment to be in.Bronagh: Sitting in Glasgow, I’m just noticing where the numbers of people testing positive are considerably higher than in comparable areas and really wondering what that means and what that is? There is not a real analysis coming through yet but one thing that Glasgow is well-known for is being the “sick man” of Europe. This is known as the “Glasgow Effect” where the death rate is significantly higher than similar post-industrial cities… so really curious to see if the existing health inequalities will be a part of why we are recording such considerably higher numbers. Tues: This feels like it is quite analogous with what’s happening in the US where we’re seeing more COVID-19 deaths among black folks and there are just a few cities who are just starting to track by race; who is being infected and who is dying from COVID. It’s disproportionally black and brown people; black people specifically and it’s because of long-term health disparities. Are you saying that is what’s happening in Glasgow… that the long-term disparities are manifesting through COVID? Can you say more, Bronagh?Bronagh: I’m noticing that the numbers in Glasgow are significantly higher than I think for comparable cities… but we don’t have the analysis on that yet but I am wondering if the pre-existing health inequalities in this city are one of the reasons why folks are experiencing it a lot more. I think we are just seeing that ill health is often socially determined and so communities which have a lot of socially determined ill health are going to be the most “vulnerable.”Tim: Bronagh, when you say “heath inequalities’ can you just make that very, very laymen’s terms for me? What exactly are you pointing to? Can you also break down “social determinants?” Bronagh: So one of the ways of thinking about this is how poverty is actually a social determinant - how your lived experience of poverty actually makes you more vulnerable to illness, to heart attacks, to strokes, to cancer. The stress of that kind of existence makes you more vulnerable to those experiences of ill heath. Poverty is a social determinant.Tues: As we go into this conversation and we say that not all of us are experiencing this the same; this is a key part of it. This idea of class, race, different marginalized groups are going be more vulnerable simply because of pre-existing conditions. Sommer: St. Croix, US Virgin Islands, is a territory. We are an unincorporated territory and I think the largest fare for me is how invisible we tend to be to our nation. As you talk about structural inequalities, we talk about communities that have high level of vulnerabilities… we import 98% of our food, my sister territories have predominantly huge instances of obesity so 60% of my population (20-40yrs) are all vulnerable. When you couple that with two devastating back-to-back hurricanes, that we experienced in 2017, and a hospital that is in recovery where we don’t have access to respirators… those structural inequalities also puts another layer/lens of equity, and service and what justice means for people. What health justice means for people for whom the disaster was created way before COVID. While we are dealing with COVID-19, the other issue is how do we manage what is here in a system that was not made to see me and my community. Tues: Sommer, you’ve been so clear here and careful in calling the US Virgin Islands a territory but I’ve also heard you refer to it as a colony and I’m asking you to go a little deeper into what you understand around the relationship with the US as a territory. What does that look like? What does it mean to be a territory?Sommer: What it means to be a territory of the US is that we are owned property. We are run through the Department of Interior. As an unincorporated territory that means we cannot apply for statehood. So Puerto Rico is a Commonwealth and statehood is an option. For unincorporated territories it means our territory has not been officially incorporated into the American status. It’s still a level of ownership… and so we are in that regard a colony because technically the United States owns us and we are probably four major steps away from being able to ever consider statehood. Tim: How much of this is class? And Bronagh, are you seeing a geographical parallel as Sommer described it?Bronagh: For me, it is being experienced/witnessed as having a very direct class relationship. A really basic framing of it is the rich went to their private islands and yachts, the middle classes stayed home and worried about their kids, and the working class folks had to go and stock shelves, drive buses and take people around and they got very, very, very sick. That is really basic but pretty accurate reading of how this is impacting people.Tues: That’s such a clear way of showing the stratification. To keep us all integrated, we can sometimes be that clear when the classes are all white. Just to name that class is a huge factor and here, at least, we cannot separate from race. Class here is so inextricably tied with race and often gender. Here in the US, people want to say it’s about class, not race. It’s a clear way to not talk about race here instead of really talking about the fact that we have structurally stratified our economy so that black and brown folks are in the lower class. Here there is a real overlay with race. Tim: We’re beginning a conversation and we are inviting you in. As always with The Outside, there are no simple answers but by seeing it and hearing these perspectives from the different parts of the world we get to understand this in a completely different level and way then we would if I was just living in sweet, little Mahone Bay. Tues: We’ll be having these conversations together as Outsiders. Bronagh & Sommer, you are both are so brilliant. This is why I leave our team meetings so happy. Thank you for being here! Song: “Take The Power Back” by Rage Against The Machine Poem: “Untitled,” by Sommer Sibilly-BrownDoes a Black Heart Bleed Black Blood?Does a Black man make Black Love?Does Being Black now signify everything that I am ?Or will ever be?Am I Black?Or is Being Black Me?Does Being Black, mean seeing Black?Black Vision The Black Decision Do the Right thing. Not the White thing !And Manifest your Black Destiny Black DaysBlack Ways Black MagicBLACK MAJESTY Brought on BlackshipsBeaten with Black Whips Stole Freedom in the Black NightFought the Black Fight That one day Black might Escape the Black lagoon And Break the Black Cocoon And Fly high Black Butterfly And Celebrate myself and my way of lifeThan more than some Black HolidaySubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com. Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 31:59Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Thank you for joining us for our 2nd Cabral HouseCall of the weekend! I’m looking forward to sharing with you some of our community’s questions that have come in over the past few weeks… Let’s get started!    Carolyn: I have two questions. First, what test do you suggest to evaluate cell function (at the cellular level)? And secondly, what protocol do you suggest for an otherwise healthy 23 year old male bitten by the lone star tick and now ‘allergic’ to all hooved animal products due to alpha galactose reaction. Thank you very much for your dedication to everyone’s wellness. We listeners are all grateful. Gabe: Hi Dr. Cabral, for the past couple of weeks I’ve been having major midday stomaching cramping. I ran a hair tissue test and found out I was deficient in pepsin and Enterokinase. I was wondering if you think that could be the cause of my discomfort and if you had any suggestions to balance the issue. Jennifer: Hi, eating disorder for 15 years, bulimia specifically, working on recovery last couple years. Question is regarding GERD because of the stomach acid from throwing up. I have to take medicine everyday to control it, I’m concerned about it messing up my ability to absorb vitamins/minerals. I’ve tried not taking it for a couple days, and it’s too painful. Thoughts? Tim: How long do digestive enzymes last? The bottle says to take them 15 minutes before, but what if a meal lasts longer than the duration of its effects in the stomach? Should I take 1 mid-meal as well? Kim: I started following Dr. Cabrals protocol in late summer. I am not one to mind having a fruit smoothie for breakfast w/ frozen fruits and vegetable. However, now /w the changing of the seasons; my body just does not want a cold smoothie for breakfast! It craves hot things like oatmeal, rice porridge, squashes, potatoes, etc. Do you have any options for breakfast or how to make the DNS into something more geared towards the changing of the seasons? Right now, I am having to just mix mine in a shaker bottle and sip it throughout the day or down it as a mid afternoon snack. Melissa: Hi Dr Cabral, I am about to start your CBO protocol to work on my SIBO. My specialist has tested me on the cause of my SIBO and as a result I have discovered I have gastroparesis and low gastrin levels. My concern is after I complete the protocol my SIBO could come back! I was unable to get any support from my specialist about what to do to remain SIBO free. They have only suggested to take a drug (for life) to pump my stomach faster and I was told 'there is nothing you can do for gastrin'. I have discovered your treatments and advice and am hopeful you would have some natural advice to help stay SIBO free. Thank you advance for any assistance you can give! Melissa Marie: Hi Doc! I have some specific questions regarding fasted weight training. On weekends I have gotten into the habit of training in the morning and am quite enjoying fasted workouts. My goals are fat loss esp around the midsection (would not classify myself as generally overweight however) and muscle gain in the lower body (glutes, legs). My fasted weekend training consists of weightlifting for the lower body followed by 20 min of light cardio. I am not hungry during these workouts but would like your feedback on whether I am sabotaging my results this way. Should I eat before training? Should I have a quick snack before the cardio (or not do the cardio at all that day?) Or is it fine to just eat after? Advice much appreciated as always xx   Thank you for tuning into this weekend’s Cabral HouseCalls and be sure to check back tomorrow for our Mindset & Motivation Monday show to get your week started off right! - - - Show Notes & Resources:  http://StephenCabral.com/1374 - - - Dr. Cabral's New Book, The Rain Barrel Effect https://amzn.to/2H0W7Ge - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: http://CabralSupportGroup.com - - -   Dr. Cabral’s Most Popular Supplements: > “The Dr. Cabral Daily Protocol” (This is what Dr. Cabral does every day!) - - - > Dr. Cabral Detox  (The fastest way to get well, lose weight, and feel great!) - - - > Daily Nutritional Support Shake  (#1 “All-in-One recommendation in my practice) - - - > Daily Fruit & Vegetables Blend  (22 organic fruit & vegetables “greens powder”) - - - > CBD Oil  (Full-spectrum, 3rd part-tested & organically grown) - - - > Candida/Bacterial Overgrowth, Leaky Gut, Parasite & Speciality Supplement Packages - - - > See All Supplements: https://equilibriumnutrition.com/collections/supplements  - - -   Dr. Cabral’s Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Organic Acids Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Thyroid + Adrenal + Hormone Test  (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Adrenal + Hormone Test (Run your adrenal & hormone levels) - - - > Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Omega-3 Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - > Stool Test (Use this test to uncover any bacterial, h. 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Schedulicity and Hairdustry presents Your Day Off podcast- Tim Fisk- 10 minutes with Tim-How to get your next raise,How to make a plan to win the Day. By now you know how invaluable source of information Tim is. In this episode Tim teaches you how to make more money and to better your best. https://www.summitsalon.com/staff/tim-fisk/ https://www.instagram.com/timfiskis/ https://essentials.schedulicity.com/hairdustry/ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/hairdustry/support

Oh, what the hell, Tim?? How could you record the 40th episode without us? Also: Eduardo vs. Schnitzel! Apocalypse vs. Alien World! Timmy's Dad vs. Radditz! John Cena vs. Brad Pitt! Marcus vs. Chumlee! Black Bear vs. Mountain Lion!

In episode fifteen, Tim & Tuesday share insights on their many rapid-pace leaps and lessons over the last year. The Outside’s team, delivery, story, and facilitation is a constant iteration.1.15 —— SHOW NOTESTues: We are one year into The Outside as a business.Tim: We started this [The Outside] saying, ‘We’ll give it two years and see how it goes and run some little experiments…’ We have landed four really significant, major, long-term pieces of work. Two in Europe, one in Canada and one in the United States.At the end of this calendar year, I hope our calendars give us just enough of a breather to stop and be like: Where are we at? Where did we come from? and Where are we going?Tues: Okay, questions for us on our one year:What are one or two highlights from the first year of The Outside?How has this launch year felt?What are you most looking forward to or trembling about?Favourite podcast from the year?What advice would you give yourself on this date last year?Tim: Genuinely wake up everyday with a feeling of tiredness and excitement.Tues: I feel like I am changing shape - getting bigger, wider and deeper.Tim: How do we structure the business? How do we not become a big studio? How do we really stay nimble, adaptive and network-based? Pulling together teams of outrageously competent and brilliant people. What’s just enough structure to hold that?Getting a sense of what it means to be “Outsiders” beyond just you and me. Trembling at the scale and speed at which we are growing. Looking forward to determining our organizational structure. Excited for the building of this thing.Tues: Trembling at the pace and travel of this work but the work is exciting. Tim: A core principal of The Outside was around family. We’re having to figure this out and continue to make part of our organizational design.Tues: We have to hold each other in the overwhelm of things to do and share that but we also have a tendency towards excitement. Then we have to be like “wait a second; hold on.” Both of us have to do that for each other. My favourite thing about this podcast is that it gives us time to reflect together out loud. Time to understand my own knowing about what’s happening and to share that with you in a really ongoing way. Tim: Eat well! Sleep well! Enjoy your children!Tues: Relax. You won’t have it all figured out but you will have just enough figured out to go forward.Poem of the day: Won’t You Celebrate With Me by Lucille CliftonWon’t You Celebrate With Mewon't you celebrate with mewhat i have shaped intoa kind of life? i had no model.born in babylonboth nonwhite and womanwhat did i see to be except myself?i made it uphere on this bridge betweenstarshine and clay,my one hand holding tightmy other hand; come celebratewith me that everydaysomething has tried to kill meand has failed.Song: “Functions On The Low” by Rough SqwadSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 32:17Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

In episode eleven, Tim and Tuesday deconstruct the change journey of a piece of work that rings bells across the spectrum. Using sport as a container, what can the rest of us learn about breaking through to ‘win’?1.11 — SHOW NOTESTues: This piece of work represents an intersection between our growing up, our current physical activity, and our work.Tim and Tues reflect on their own connection to sport as a coping and processing mechanism, identity, and pathway out of poverty for many young people.Tues: In this piece of work with Sport Nova Scotia (‘sport for social change’), we share the desire of helping more people experience the gift of sport—confidence and courage. In this collaboration, we’re figuring out how to re-engineer the system so more people can experience this.Tim: How can the culture of sport be more accessible? How can we shift the economy and structure of it in terms of who it prioritizes (colour, race, ethnicity, how long your family has been in the province, who they know)? Accessibility is huge.Tues: It’s a question common to all people seeking to collaborate for all kinds of change, beyond just sport: how much of our efforts simply make tweaks within a broken system? What’s stopping us from creating a completely new and equitable system from the ground up? As change facilitators, we work inside this tension all the time.Tim: Keeping the doors open on the dominant system buys us time to create the new. Part of our hypothesis is that we need people who are helping the old system stay open, and help it die and help to detoxify it as much as we need people meeting the new. These are all change leadership roles.Tues: Let’s be intentional because some of our efforts will be towards the old system. Our children, adults and seniors are in that old system now. Also, only choosing to look toward the new can leave a lot of people behind.POEM: “Dark Testament: Verse 8” by Pauli MurrayHope is a crushed stalkBetween clenched fingersHope is a bird’s wingBroken by a stone.Hope is a word in a tuneless ditty —A word whispered with the wind,A dream of forty acres and a mule,A cabin of one’s own and a moment to rest,A name and place for one’s childrenAnd children’s children at last . . .Hope is a song in a weary throat.Give me a song of hopeAnd a world where I can sing it.Give me a song of faithAnd a people to believe in it.Give me a song of kindlinessAnd a country where I can live it.Give me a song of hope and loveAnd a brown girl’s heart to hear it.SONG: “In My View” by Young FathersSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com. Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 30:36Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: Source See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Guy and Tim say hello to some friends, goodbye for other friends and ‘Please get off your phone’ to potential live comedy punters. How’s Tim? How’s Guy’s literary knowledge? How high were the boys when we recorded Prawn Salad? Well, let’s find out! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Rev. Tim Lytle is a Unity minister whose studies have included multiple religious methodologies from around the world. Rev. Tim and has a special place in my heart and, when I got married several years ago, I had him come to the wedding and he did such a wonderful job with our intimate ceremony. Since then, he’s moved on to Unity Church of Hawaii in Honolulu and I’m very excited to introduce you to him today. Rev. Tim’s teachings focus on divine alignment and attuning ourselves with our highest purpose. Through these teachings, he aims to help others know we are here to express magnificence and live life out loud. What you'll hear in this episode: Rev. Tim’s favorite thing about the work he does What aligning and attuning to the divine presence means to Rev. Tim How aligning and attuning to the divine presence with us can improve our mind climate How Rev. Tim used affirmations to change the negative things he’d been taught about himself by teachers and other adults in his life while growing up The practice of embracing all our emotions instead of trying to eliminate the “bad” one Rev. Tim’s two main tips for becoming more aligned and attuned with your divine presence The major pitfall some people experience when starting this practice Why a member of his church credits Rev. Tim for saving their life with this practice Ivy’s reflection on the conversation with Rev. Tim and the question she wants you to ask yourself after listening to this episode to make sure you’re living your life out loud   Connect with Ivy on Facebook and join the Mind Climate Community!

Professor Noakes started researching the effects of carbohydrates, proteins and fats on humans. After his research convinced him that a high fat low carb diet is the healthiest option for many, Professor Noakes founded the Noakes Foundation in 2012.After being left frustrated by the decline of his own personal health, Professor Noakes has made it his mission to reverse this global trend. The Noakes Foundation is the catalyst for this change. It seeks to reveal what genuine, healthy nutrition looks like, and in doing so makes a difference in the lives of millions of people.Join me as I ask Tim:How did he come to realise that his beliefs about nutrition were all wrong, and what did he do about it?What’s his advice for people who need to make a change to their diet?What percentage of the population can reverse their Type 2 Diabetes by adopting this way of life?How can endurance athletes continue doing the sports they love while eating this way?And Tim will share with us:What happened to his health when he adopted this way of life.How the Associated Dieticians of South Africa reacted.The battle he ultimately won to clear his name.The benefits of shaking the sugar addiction.Professor Timothy Noakes is a dear friend of mine. He has a wealth of knowledge about nutrition and has fought the fight of his life to share it with the world.“I realised within 2 hours ‘oh my gosh I got it all wrong!’”“We would have loved them to go to the High Court because we would have nailed them finally and we would have exposed the collusion behind the scenes.”“Never again can anyone be charged in a court for prescribing the low carb diet on the grounds that it is dangerous.”“We’re up against an industry that is ruthless and has no interest in your health or my health.”To find out more about Tim Noakes and the Noakes Foundation visit https://TheNoakesFoundation.orgI’d love to know your thoughts and experiences - join the conversation on my Facebook page.For more episodes of Recipes For Life, find us on iTunes at https://apple.co/2NpsIba, Spotify at https://spoti.fi/2NpSiN0, Whooskhaa at https://www.whooshkaa.com/shows/recipes-for-life-with-pete-evans, click the link on https://peteevans.com, or just look up "Recipes For Life" in your favourite podcast app.I'd love to spread the knowledge in these podcasts far and wide. If you liked this episode, I'd love it if you could share it with your friends, and perhaps even leave a review on iTunes.This podcast is proudly presented by The Institute For Integrative Nutrition, or IIN for short.I've completed this amazing health training course through IIN, and I would thoroughly recommend it for anyone wanting to start a career in the health coaching and wellness space.This course is conducted over a year long period and it's constructed in a way that if you're a full time worker or a busy parent or wherever you are in your life will still be able to complete all the required curriculum and modules.Please see the link included in this post on my Facebook or Instagram page or on iTunes, to access the free sample class and first module of the program, to get a great taste of the format and structure as well as utilise my special discount that I can offer you if you decide to sign up.Make sure you tell the admission team that you're part of the Pete Evans tuition savings to claim your very substantial... See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Professor Noakes started researching the effects of carbohydrates, proteins and fats on humans. After his research convinced him that a high fat low carb diet is the healthiest option for many, Professor Noakes founded the Noakes Foundation in 2012.After being left frustrated by the decline of his own personal health, Professor Noakes has made it his mission to reverse this global trend. The Noakes Foundation is the catalyst for this change. It seeks to reveal what genuine, healthy nutrition looks like, and in doing so makes a difference in the lives of millions of people.Join me as I ask Tim:How did he come to realise that his beliefs about nutrition were all wrong, and what did he do about it?What's his advice for people who need to make a change to their diet?What percentage of the population can reverse their Type 2 Diabetes by adopting this way of life?How can endurance athletes continue doing the sports they love while eating this way?And Tim will share with us:What happened to his health when he adopted this way of life.How the Associated Dieticians of South Africa reacted.The battle he ultimately won to clear his name.The benefits of shaking the sugar addiction.Professor Timothy Noakes is a dear friend of mine. He has a wealth of knowledge about nutrition and has fought the fight of his life to share it with the world.“I realised within 2 hours ‘oh my gosh I got it all wrong!'”“We would have loved them to go to the High Court because we would have nailed them finally and we would have exposed the collusion behind the scenes.”“Never again can anyone be charged in a court for prescribing the low carb diet on the grounds that it is dangerous.”“We're up against an industry that is ruthless and has no interest in your health or my health.”To find out more about Tim Noakes and the Noakes Foundation visit https://TheNoakesFoundation.orgI'd love to know your thoughts and experiences - join the conversation on my Facebook page.For more episodes of Recipes For Life, find us on iTunes at https://apple.co/2NpsIba, Spotify at https://spoti.fi/2NpSiN0, Whooskhaa at https://www.whooshkaa.com/shows/recipes-for-life-with-pete-evans, click the link on https://peteevans.com, or just look up "Recipes For Life" in your favourite podcast app.I'd love to spread the knowledge in these podcasts far and wide. If you liked this episode, I'd love it if you could share it with your friends, and perhaps even leave a review on iTunes.This podcast is proudly presented by The Institute For Integrative Nutrition, or IIN for short.I've completed this amazing health training course through IIN, and I would thoroughly recommend it for anyone wanting to start a career in the health coaching and wellness space.This course is conducted over a year long period and it's constructed in a way that if you're a full time worker or a busy parent or wherever you are in your life will still be able to complete all the required curriculum and modules.Please see the link included in this post on my Facebook or Instagram page or on iTunes, to access the free sample class and first module of the program, to get a great taste of the format and structure as well as utilise my special discount that I can offer you if you decide to sign up.Make sure you tell the admission team that you're part of the Pete Evans tuition savings to claim your very substantial...  See /privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

96.5FM Mornings with Tim - How to Be More Productive by Sally Thibault

Tim Albright is arguably the most successful podcaster in AV. He started his career in radio, and somehow wound up becoming and AV consultant. He’s also worked as a control systems programmer and university technology manager before founding AVNation. AVNation is a network of AV professionals whose goal is to further the AV industry through education and knowledge. They do that through blog posts and covering industry events and they are most well known for podcasting. Their flagship podcast, AVWeek, was first recorded in 2011 and provides a weekly overview of the AV industry. Over the years they have launched several other podcasts like ResiWeek, EdTech and my personal favourite, A State Of Control. Transcript This transcription was created with IBM Watson's Speech To Text service. Computers aren't perfect. Please keep that in mind when reading the transcript. [spoiler title="Read More..."] Pat: Greetings everyone in AV lands my name is Patrick Murray and welcome to software defined survival, where we interview the people and companies in AV that you software to re invent themselves and the way they do business. We listen to their stories and asks for as for tactics and device on how to survive and even thrive in this software defines world.   I'm excited about our first guest on the show he is arguably the most successful podcaster in AV and before you run away saying what the heck does podcasting have to do with software, I kind of see podcasting and blogging as software defined media. Right? That the podcasts and the blogs and things like that, they don't care where you are and they don't care how you consume it. They don't care what time it is like a radio show and things like that so this is definitely a software defined solution and that's why I'm excited to have this guest.   He started his career in radio and somehow wound up becoming an AV consultant I'll have to ask how that happens and he also worked as a control system programmer and university technology manager before founding easy nation alienation is a network of AV professionals whose goal is to provide to further the AV industry through education and knowledge something that is near and dear to my heart and their flagship podcast TV week was first recorded in two thousand and eleven and it provides a weekly overview of the AV industry if you're in a movie you should definitely check out a few weeks it's a great way to get a a download of what's going on in the industry.   Now over the years they launched several other podcasts like crazy week ed tech and my personal favorite state of control if your navy programmer definitely check out a state of control well ladies and gentlemen Tim Albright.   Tim: Yeah, way too flowery.   Pat: Welcome to the show Tim. Is there anything about that introduction that you'd like to add or expand upon?   Tim: No you don't need me on the show now! Yeah yeah I'm good.   Pat: Nice.   Tim: How are you doing?   Pat: Yeah I'm good I'm good.   Tim: I'm excited for this dude.   Pat: Thank you I appreciate that. I got a couple questions lined up here. We could also let this meander and go wherever it takes us.   Tim: It probably will.   Pat: It probably will. So I know you have kids I have a couple kids myself and one thing you'll never hear a child say is when I grow up I want to be in AV. At least, I haven't heard that one yet. So there's usually a story behind how people wind up in this industry so tell us how did you get started in AV?   Tim: Why are you mention my broadcast and my broadcast background and I was working for radio stations and Lois and must show my my my wife and I Michelle had had had our first child and it was not conducive to having a child was not conducive to being on morning radio which is what I was because you know you get up at stupid o'clock in the morning and you go to bed at you know really early at night and just wasn't conducive for that and so I was starting to look around and the armada the college that I had had gone to school to school at was needing what they described as a in an engineer and somebody to take care of some projector installs once a month once a year and I was annoyed that day I'm, I'm somewhat technical and somewhat you know I can do that and I was already teaching already a production for them and so I was like sure I can do this and so they they they hired me on and what turned in what what started out as being do a couple of projector installs a year turned into holy cow we have no money and we have to upgrade all of these rooms and we have to adjust the programming in these rooms and we have to learn how to properly designed these these rooms so I quickly found myself taking Infocom classes and taking classes from various manufacturers and getting certified to program Sir your fax first and so I buy it we ended up having our own little small band of of designers and installers for our little college I mean we had a hundred ninety rooms which is not it's not small but it's not it's not the size of let's say young university of Illinois which is also listed above out for me but it was it was significant for us and so that got me only involved in AV almost from the get go. I mea, I went to my very first Infocomm shortly after starting there because of the lack of knowledge that I had and I need to get ramped up on so that's how I got involved was you need to do a career change and of finding myself you know in the ceiling trying to put together a five wire BNC and and getting a multi meter out to figure out why the heck my yellow look weird.   Pat: Exactly switching that the black and white wires.   Tim: Well, I started making cables with all kinds of short so that's why I that's what I used to multi meter is yeah every yeah eventually got better at it .   Pat : So you mentioned your first visit to Infocomm do you remember what your first impressions were kind of walking into that hall?   Tim: Holy crap, are you kidding me? I fell in love I honestly it well it wasn't the work and it was in the I love the work it was it was good work and I I still I still control is still my favorite part of of a B. and and probably always will be , but when I walked in the show floor this is this is back in the mid to late two thousands arm so wasn't the size it is now I was absolutely flabbergasted me, I had never been to anything like that like it before my life I'd never to the C. S. as as a as a journalist I'd been to a number of junk it's a movie junkets where they fight about interview people in this up now and go see movies and those are smaller by by a large margin but I never been to any be a detriment to CS and so this is my first trade show experience and I walked in the show for and I'm just awestruck and I'm like I don't want to do anything else I simply don't want to do anything else and I remember walking around and talking to folks and you know that was when I got to meet a lot of folks that I still you know consider friends today I mean I it was when when I will I met body mind his name is Kevin who happens to work for Crestron but you know met him there and I met them for the folks that just to kind of took me under their wing and said okay here's this here's as dumb kid that does not anything let's, let's show him a thing or two.   Pat: Yeah there's nothing like having a mentor in those first years to know an explain things that are that are now probably totally obvious to you.   Tim: And obsolete. Just for the record.   Pat: Well, Yeah, RGBHV byebye.   Pat: So everybody in AV usually has a at least one nightmare project under their belt. Let's not talk about that. Maybe you could tell me about your most rewarding AV projects and what made it special for you?   Tim: Oh wow, see that one is harder. I can tell you can tell you my nightmare story off the top of my head. So this is not one that I specifically did but I was in charge of I mention the fact that I work for college and the largest the largest construction project that we were a part of the college I where I went to over the cards that I've I worked at was a small community college and it was it was bigger than what it should have been. It's it's it has delusions of grandeur at time and it's a good thing right I'm not I'm not saying that as a negative I'm saying that they have delusions of grandeur and all the times they meet those right so this is a community college who reaches beyond what the normal community college to play does they wanted to do a research center right this organization called script switches scripts ocean Oceana ocean out ripple oceanography is that right oceanic scripts motioning research center are they study the ocean well I live in Illinois, I live in southwest Illinois just outside of Saint Louis. We live on the Mississippi, the biggest outside of the Amazon the biggest of fresh water longest waterway in the in the North America there's nothing like that. Right there's nothing and so they wanted to develop a research center I community college, building a research center for the for the rivers. And where Alton is which is the whole time I live and it actually happens to be right at the confluence between the Illinois Mississippi and the Missouri rivers so not only are you on the biggest river in North America you're also at this very unique place between where all these three rivers come togther, right. So that's kind of the backstory here, they have this this grand idea are they partner with a bunch of people I know like we're gonna build this, right? It is a platinum level or gold level LEED certified building, right. I think when they started out they were going platinum and I think eventually they got gold. And we were tasked with doing all the AV in this research facility. Now there have been a couple other projects where they they built this this four story twenty million dollar research facility a year or two earlier and we spec'd out right. That was you're talking about thirty or forty rooms I think , six lecture halls that was subbed out we helped with the design and we we assisted with some of the direction but we did not do that. We did this research facility and at the end of the day when we had the grand opening and and this that and the other, you walk through and everything's working and everything's exactly you know what kind of the way you envisioned it as a designer so it was the first project as as a AV person as an A. V. professional, as a programmer, as a designer, as an installer you could sit back and go: „yeah we did that and it freaking rocks“.   Pat: Nice! It does happen once in awhile. Has it ever happened again?   Tim: No, well like that, I mean we've had a couple others while we were there like I said we were there and had the AV because we had to.   Pat: Is that why you had that kind of success with it, because yeah because the control you have over the projects?   Tim: Yes,absolutely! No it was one of these things where we were actually brought in early enough and every AV person in the world will tell you, the earlier we can get brought in the more successful going to half and we were able to do things like you know have conversations about you know the network and have conversations and this is early on with video over IP and integrating we used a,video conferencing system it was like the second or third video conferencing system college never had. We had two of them in this building because they were visiting scientists from all over the world who had their own water ways that they were concerned with they would come to this resurfaced research facility, because it was one of a kind of I believe it still as it was, one of a kind and so you had folks from China on you had folks from our member Argentina and Venezuela coming here. And so they needed to talk to their compatriots in a secure manner so we had we were tasked with creating a secure BTC system and something that was easy for them to use and understand and you know this was back way before anybody considered you know one button usability we had a one button system where they all they had to do was you know come in and and we were working with the the scheduling software and they can hit a button and they were connected to their people. If it was the right time and the right schedule.     Pat: Very nice. There's a few things I want to impact there. Like somebody told me recently when a professor in a university for example. When they have a hard time with this technology, it kind of takes away from their credentials a bit. Right, if if they're like supposed to be this really smart person and they're fumbling around with the touch panel, it it kind of takes away from the authority that they have. So something like a one touch button, you know, where anybody could really use it, then they can get on with their own job.     Tim: So, so I have a story about that. I have over the years worked with a couple integrators in Saint Louis. I still do work for one group. Just because I've known him for twenty years and they're good friends. One of the first times I was on a significant ,college and university in Saint Louis .I'm not gonna say which one. We were replacing a touchpanel and we get there and this touchpanel is concaved,right and this is an old, if you're familiar with the old Crestron quick media systems, it was a seventeen inch quick media touch panel, so this was not a cheap device to replace. It was somewhere between fifteen and twenty grants and the the entire center of it is concave and I'm like „what in the world happened to this?“   Pat: I think, I know what happened.   Tim: There's this professor, who has like fifteen doctorates, probably like four or five, but still has a number of doctorates and is the first time using the system and just like any other good programmer you put in a cool down screen, when you're using a projector, especially back then right.   Pat: Sure.   Tim: And he said, how dare this thing tell me to wait two minutes so I can restart the system. And put his fist through it.   Pat: Wow, he actually punched the touch panel.   Tim: No, no he wailed on the touchpanel, to the point where it was busted.   Pat: Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to this, or I hope there are. Thant wanted to do that themselves once or twice.   Tim: Oh, I'm certain.   Pat: I know a guy, who threw his laptop across the room once, programmer.   Tim: Laptop? I've done that too.   Pat: Yeah? I always wanted to, never had the guts to do it. I wanted to believe it, but never had the guts to actually do it. So the other thing I wanted to talk about on that story was. I always like it, because a lot of times we do these projects and we go away and we never see how the rooms are used and usually it's some generic thing that you know we never really can appreciate at all. So I like the fact that you actually knew about people using the room and how they're using it. Like scientists coming together from all over the world and actually using your technology to collaborate and really produce results. That’s something I think we don't get to see often enough.   Tim: Well especially folks like you, right. And you know folks, who are either independent programmers right. You guys are the mercenaries of the industry you get called in or subbed out and you don't. Alright, you go in and you know, I've talked about this before, you're kind of unique, because you're in Germany, you get to go around to different parts, different countries in you Amsterdam and done jobs. I've done jobs, not a whole lot of outside of Saint Louis but a couple of size and Louis. And you're right, if you are in this position, you're never going to go back to that job, hopefully. As long as everything worked correctly and see how they use it. Now being a tech manager, if you are a tech manager, yes, you get that you get that that ability you get that opportunity to do it on two different levels. First of all, if you're decent, if you are a tech manager worth their salt, you should at least be there or be available for folks especially new an incoming faculty to use your systems. Now you and I both know, that if you have to have instructions on how to use a touch panel the new done a poor job of designing the touch panel. But there are people with five doctor too that can't turn on a light switch successfully. Sometimes.   Pat: They've got their minds on other things.   Tim: Absolutely they do. So we actually developed a number of modules because we still had we're still going from one control system to another control system even when I left, because that we have had with at one standard we're moving to another so we had about three different, types of of control systems are at our college, so we had different models we had recorded them in and let met what made them available to new incoming faculty so I can get used to it right. If you're in this building with this is the type of system we have in this building this is how you access your but this building it's just a bunch of you know it's a it's a wall plate with a couple buttons this is how you do you you access it. And so, you would still be able to go and and and and walk through and and kind of be available the first couple weeks of of classes, to make sure that everything kind of works and and kind of comes off without a hitch. Pat: Very nice. Lets a shift gears for a minute and talk about AV Nation. Where did the...   Tim: Why? I'm not very serious Patrick, you should know by now.   Pat: Yeah I'm good I'm getting that, so I'll try to tone it down a little bit. Tim: No, you’re fine   Pat: It’s my first podcast , give me a break, I'll loosen up.   Tim: I have three hundred forty one AV weeks and I am not gonna count the other ones, so.   Pat: Nice, so where the original idea come from?   Tim: Oh Lord, so you mentioned very very nicely my broadcast background. I was weaned and kind of developed as a broadcast journalist at the the preeminent news talk stations at Lewis called KMOX. I had a job before I ever left college there and so I was able to rub shoulders with and learn from some of the best in the business it was it was owned by CBS at the time and so we were trained in the CBS way of of how to gather news. And said that that is my pedigree when it comes to the broadcast journalists part. And when I got involved in the AV industry and fell in love with it, that kind of put that down for a while I still taught on radio production in audio production, but actually since 2006, I was teaching students how to podcast I wasn't doing it myself, but I I saw it as an opportunity for up and coming broadcasters to cut their teeth and and and kind of stretch their legs and stretch their wings and see what's possible on in the realm of audio. And in 2005/2006 I was turned on to this week in tech by Leo Laporte. It's the twit network, yeah he has several podcasts, he's probably the most successful podcaster period. And possibly Adam Corolla has passed him at this point from a network standpoint I would say that Leo was probably up there. And so listening to that on a weekly basis, he does tech in general, right, so he does you know cell phones, computers and switches and all kind of stuff.   Pat: Everything.   Tim: Everything. And he also does for two hours a week which is way more than than I can I can do. So I was looking for something, right and, so there were a couple of people who have who have were already doing something not what I was looking for but they were doing something Essien at the time and that's when I see an atomic medications was doing a monthly video podcast are where they would bring people into a studio and they would talk about a specific project, right. So it was kind of white paper, a video version of a white paper.   Pat: Okay.   Tim: Wasn't what I was looking for. What I was looking for the twit version of the the AV version of twit, right. I want the news that I wanted it in a succinct way and I want it on a weekly basis. Nobody had it.   Pat: Right.   Tim: Right and I don't know that anybody's still does .   Pat: Maybe in prints, but certainly not weekly, right.   Tim: But not weekly, right. And so on it's one of these things where necessity breeds invention I didn't have what I wanted and so I made it.   Pat: Scratch your own itch.   Tim: Yeah, I mean I could see again I'm an old radio guy in and I've been in television as well and and I think that that medium has a lot to offer people. You get to learn people's voices and I don't mean that any any in the literal sense I mean, folks understand that I am as much, a lover of this industry, as I am not overly serious about it. And I was I don't take ourselves too seriously I've made the comment both on the air off the year it's our team and other people. If the projector doesn't work no one is going to die, right. You know it's not life and death and you have to understand kind of where your your places in the world. We make experiences. And I'm I'm gonna totally steal this line here, we make great experiences and our job as as a nation is kind of what we've developed into and what we were allies and and me still learning how to be a businessman, because I'm a producer that's my pedigree is, we speak directly to the integrators on a weekly basis, right. Way back when it when I was a radio we had, you will be called an avatar with this is the person that we're talking to. My avatar for AV nation specifically for a AV week are the folks the integrators who are are driving into their office on Monday morning: Why is it that they need to know for that week to be successful? Right? And that question has driven, darn near everything that we've done. It's driven the deep dive into the other, what I'll call niche podcast that we do on a monthly basis and that includes the state of control which is controlled automation that includes AV. social which is shell social media and marketing. Which is kind of developed into more marketing and social media because boxing in under understand how to talk to their clients, right. It drove a show actually from one of our underwriters, to look at the on the IT in A. V. and how they each influence each other. It drove a show that I developed probably a year ago with a consulting firm, called on the eighty profession. And that looks at you know ways to make your business better. Has nothing to do with the with the actual technology of AV, but it is about how to be better at your business. You know we've done everything from interview consultants who will help you with your business to interview business authors, on how to get consumer consumers. I'd just interviewed a guy who I was turned on to by a buddy of mine that I've developed a relationship with the Name Ian Altman. Ian is a fanstastic sales person to bend tastic sales consulting. He's spoken of a Bacchae spoke in other places you spoke with PSNI and super summit. Well, Ian turned me on this other guy by the name of Markus Sheridan. He is probably one of the best experts that I've ever read, when it comes to content marketing, he turned a like this closed bankrupt, swimming pool company in the middle of the recession, he turned around with about a year and a half through content marketing. And reading his story and reading his take on it, is fascinating and it's incredibly important to people in the A. V. industry. Title of his book is: „They asky you answer.“ It’s very simple.   Pat: Okay.   Tim: Your clients are going to ask you questions. Probably to the sales people, when they ask you questions, you answer it, in a not only obviously you know, Patrick is my client even assuming email say „Hey what about this and what what what's what's the steel with with HDMI to that on? How ist his gonna affect us?“ Okay, well first of all: Into the question to the client directly right now this is going to how it's going to do it this is this is what it's doing but then you send it to your marketing people and say „Hey we have a question, because, an old rule of thumb in broadcasting is that, between five and ten percent of your audience will ever ever contact you ever, I don't care if you're given a million million dollars will between five and ten percent of your of your audience will ever call and we'll ever email you ever contact you same is true in the business world. Between five and ten percent of your clients will ever ask you a question that is meaningful. You know, how they're going to be affected you take those nuggets, because I will guarantee you, that at least, twenty of the twenty other clients have the exact same question, they're just not gonna ask you.   Pat: Sure   Tim: Or potential clients may have that same question- they are not gonna ask you.   Pat: Trash.   Tim: But if you have this piece of content over here, right and they're searching how will HDMI two do affect me? Boom you have an article. Boom you have a video whatever, so it's stuff like this that has driven our content to say you know how it how can we best help integrators and in all honesty also tech managers do their job better and be more successful.   Pat: Great stuff. I mean really does a lot of stuff to tackle their. How do you know what to write? That's something I always come up against, because of course this idea of putting content out there, that's all people find you. It's basically SEO, which sounds a little fishy, if you ask me, but if you are just writing stuff that people want to know about and they do find you, nothing is better than that. And I know what you mean like I ask, I have my online courses and I ask students all the time. „Please tell me what's wrong?“ and they never answer me. It's like pulling teeth getting any kind of feedback- out of anybody. And blog posting it takes a lot of time. It's really time consuming. It's a lot of fun, because it really makes you dig deep into a subject and become more knowledgeable about it and really start to look at it from different angles that you might not have considered, but again that time investment how do you decide what to write about.   Tim: So we've done a couple different things. First of all we started taking our shows and regardless of the show there's going to be at least two or three different topics on each episode and and we've started pulling and culling information from there. But me personally, my personal blog it's what I'm interested in, right. It's what's hit me are within the last week or two weeks and right now this week I am formulating and doing some research for a blog about how the terrorists are going to impact the industry in North America large adversely beyond North America in the US our current president has put tariffs on steel, well let's not be silly a lot of our products are made with with feel , you know what the rack rack is a big giant piece of steel arm based metal and so I'm trying to do some research right now, because that to me is interesting and that's a question that nobody's asked yet. Is how are the how are the policies of not just this president every president, impacting our industry you know you look at what is it Brazil is one of the biggest exporters to us of steel. Guess what, they are also one of the biggest importer of what they are one of the biggest importers of US Cole. To make this deal.   Pat: Okay.   Tim: So you know, you're looking at stuff like this going, okay you know and at the end of the day whether it's you know Atlas or it's Middle Atlantic or its Chief and I'm just naming three you've got so many other people sure like a bank, that use steel every single day. And our listeners are users are clients or customers, how are they going to be impacted not today not tomorrow because they've already got a warehouse full of steel, but in six months or a year and then how do they decide whether or not to pass that shards alone? You know the first question is is there going to be an increase right. That's the number one question as you know this Atlas I eat is atlas and their racks had to they have to increase the price of middle when it comes to increase their price and if the question is yes it's almost like programming right, if yes then what's right and then you then the manufacturer has to make a decision without a past that that charge along most the time they have to, their business, they have to truck bass along the their their cost increases. And then okay so your you know H. B. can occasions are here city Iowa St Louis your rack price just went up ten percent okay you've designed a system you have a spec out will suddenly you're losing ten points right so how did you recoup that cost and hopefully you haven't done so are too far out right to where it's going to hurt you that much. But then how do you how do you adjust your prices again their business so they have to salute laces Hannah and so it just trickles on down to you know the final customer whether it's education reporter five hundred operation they've got to you know explain the situations I look you know. Our metal prices increased down the line, you know.   Pat: It could, putting my programmer hat on, use less hardware. It could cause people to, right?   Tim: That's actually a good point.   Pat: Just their system design, put less stuff in the rac, right? That big matrix switch can be compressed down to a network switch and maybe the numbers would work out that way. Could be an interesting angle for to solve that kind of issue.   Tim: Where people to more video over IP and not do it over a switcher. You'll also from a program from a control standpoint to you know move more toward software as opposed to you know a three to direct high, processor moved to software to where I somewhere in the cloud someone the network.   Pat: Now how about that all due to the price of steel you the way things are all kind of connected to each other. You were talking about how the business podcast and I think that's another great subject because there really is no how to. And in A.V. for a long time everybody's always been busy. But with things changing, I kind of wonder, if in a few years from now, the flow of projects will change, just a little bit, if things do become more software based. Right the whole integrators maybe to change their business model. I mean it there was talk of this years ago, as margin started to go down with with Amazon you could buy display on Amazon. But the model still doesn't seem to be service based for the most part at all. It's still his margin based model of selling hardware.   Tim: They trying.   Pat: Yeah, well that's exactly the point. That I'm trying to make is like, there's no how to, to make that jump. And have you bumped into any resources on on a podcast to try to just help us you know take this thing apart and and figure out a new way to put it back together.   Tim: Not on that possible broadcasters specifically. What I run into is some folks were doing it well. And I've run into those folks at different industry events. Two or three of my favorite events have nothing to do with the technology. They all had to do about the business of AV.   Pat: Okay.   Tim: And there's absolutely reasons to go to ISE, there's absolute reasons to go to Infocomm and all the other technology trade shows. Certainly you get to see cold things you get to do things you know it and and experience things, but what I would say is that there is more of a reason to go to these business centric our shows as well these business centric meetings.   Pat: Do you have any examples?   Tim: Well there's the three that I have is my super summit which that's only for PS my folks, in the CIA's BLC would stand for business leadership conference and then of ex is a back which is the A. B. executive conference. Is not taken out mean there's not there's not a technology showcase their. These are folks that are going to you're going to have a chance to talk with your peers, what other business owners.   Pat: Right     Tim: And find out what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong and how they can help you and honestly how you can help them. And in doing so, you know you're gonna be able to see what's worked in what's doesn't. You know we're obviously that there are regional differences in their cultural differences, not only across you know international borders but also on the scene in the US there's regional, cultural differences as big as we are. But the basics are the same, right and understanding that and it was it was actually at the BLC three years ago now, I ran into a young man who was in charge of emigration from up in Maine, which is singled out of the way. But but they were doing service and support, as a AV as a service and support through their clients right, they had they had taken the the sass model the software as a service model and convertible into AV rather successfully and they did it through number different ways number one was was the monitoring and maintaining of their systems. But that conversation and coupled with a couple different conversation with some other and integrators who had moved to AV as a service through not only monitoring but also leasing, the equipment.   Pat: The equipment, okay.   Tim: So it's not yellow you Patrick as the client you don't own anything, right. My contract with you says you're gonna have the latest greatest stuff within five years, every year, so it's my job to make sure that the system is up and running and maintained and that you have the latest greatest you don't have to worry about you know end of life for a projector or display or a control processor. Your stuff is just gonna work and it's my job to figure that out. Now you're going to pay me for that, right you gonna pay me for that, because suddenly you you don't have a need for a support team you know have a need for you know having somebody physically on site because I'm gonna come within and you know depending on base on the contract but within an hour five hours twenty four hours depending on what the contract says. I'm going to support you, to this to this degree.   Pat: Do those numbers work out?   Tim: It does for some people, it does for some organizations right for some for some clients they get, right.   Pat: Is it really just an understanding thing or because you could put this in black and white: over the next ten years, system it will cost you X. and doing that as a service option will cost also X.   Tim: X, plus some. Understand that, it's not, it's not the cheapest option, right.   Pat: But you are not laying out the money up front.   Tim: You’re not laying out the money up front: You're eliminating in you do you hate to talk about you know people line jobs for your limiting a jobber too are so your cost of off that. Number three you don't have to deal with the the half life of certain products of equipment and then you don't have to mess with what do you do with that product that that equipment once it's been taken out and that is actually one of the dirty little secrets of A V. Especially from a technology manager standpoint.   Pat: Sure.   Tim: What the heck do you do with this crap, once you've taken out of the rack.   Pat: It's useless.   Tim: Seriously I had the office I had it at Lewis and Clark, which is the college I worked at, it was, our head in for our master control for our our internal TV station, okay. So I had it you know five racks worth of equipment the set the other about time. I left there I had replaced everything in that rack, when I got there. It was all old CRTs and an old old analog equipment.   Pat: Big stuff too .   Tim: I all of my gosh I had, replaced everything in that rack to where it was down to two racks. I had a back room full of gear.   Pat: Yeah, try ebaying it.   Tim: Ebaying it is worth less right, because you you get five or ten Bucks. But then so we only end up doing electronic recycling our college had a green initiative in this and other once a year , we electronically cycle and that's where a lot of those old five wire switchers went right to a company that we knew that that are college had had bedded they knew what they did with the equipment once they got it and and they were responsible about the way that they dispose of it. But you know that's one of those things that folks don't really think about because you know I don't care what the VCR with the doc came from her years ago. This stuff has first of all has hazardous material and right now people think about that but you've got lead in there you've got ill do it like this electronics have got crap in it that probably shouldn't go into the ground how do you responsibly dispose of that and some companies absolutely do really good job of that they'll have a program to where the either get a credit to their their clients are the height say „Hey I'll take this off your hands and as we know how to properly dispose of it“. Absolutely there is that there's also I would say a large majority of folks we simply don't know what to do with you know a sixteen by sixteen BJ switcher, once they take it out and replaced it with the with a digital equipment.   Pat: Right, so that's like another bonus of that as a service modelle right, they would take care of that that final tasks. So it sounds like this is all as a service model is more about convenience it'll cost a little more but you get a ton of convenience it's like kind of like what Rich does as a white glove service. So what's the hold up?   Tim: Getting the AV sales people to wrap their head around it.   Pat: Are we, so we are our own worst enemy, kind of.   Tim: Absolutly, it’s just like every industry by way.   Pat: Yeah, okay, sure, but this is like a real opportunity to grow, because you know within a service model, you know how much is coming in every month for the next five years. These are contracts as opposed to the way we do things now, a project comes in, you get it done and then you basically start from zero again.   Tim: I think some of is also cultural, going back to that, but yet it's cultural as well, because you have a business that has a business plan. And it is in their business plan to sell ex amount in their hiring the salespeople to sell a system.   Pat: Okay.   Tim: I'm not so the contractor and some of that's it you know some that's also a cultural shift internally to say okay we're going to make the shift. I would say that the folks that I know they had gone to the service model alright there are sure to migrate to art are incredibly successful.   Pat: Yeah.   Tim: I am certain that there are failures out there. I have not heard of them, but I'm certain there are values out there, people who for whatever reason whether it's their market or their client base or whatever. Just couldn't get off the ground. Then gone back to to doing you know sales and and a service as a separate item.   Pat: Okay, so to shift to an end as a service model, is obviously a big investment, right. It would it completely changes everything. Is there a pass to do it incrementally?   Tim: That actually is how you almost have to do it, right? You can't exactly do on mass, you would have to take it , object right so you get an RFP, or you are selling to a client and you know you're listening to them and you're hearing their their big pain points. But that's the other part is this is not for everybody , there are some folks who eaten will never let you monitor their network okay ever let you monitor their system. So unless you can overcome that hurdle, it's not gonna be a very successful AV as in service installation. So that you use a limited arsenal system.   Pat: That could be handled with staffing no?   Tim: Yes and no. I mean yes, you can put somebody physically on on site, right. And then that's another cost.   Pat: Right.   Tim: Some cost, but yeah absolutely.   Pat: Okay, interesting stuff. Let's shift gears back again to....you know that kind of reminds me of, is like you were saying, to start incrementally like I tell programmers just do something small you know find your smallest projects, if you want to learn a new programming language and tried on that something that you know you could go back to your old language and do in just a few minutes. But just just try it on a really small project first. And that's how you that's a gain confidence with these things- that's how you start to that so you go from crawling to walking.   Tim: That's why the most famous phrase and all the programming is „hello world“.   Pat: Yeah, there you go.   Tim: Seriously, because that right there is you know if you can do „hello world“ in a language then you can go from there.   Pat: Yeah, definitely. So speaking of control, „state of control“, but I'm a big fan of it, obviously.   Tim: I am too.   Pat: It's actually, you know, hearing everybody, she knows that I respect, talk about the different ways to approach AV control it's it's kind of inspired me a bit to follow up on some of my own ideas and develop them and even try out a new product or so on the market. They don't know it, didn't always work but.   Tim: Oh they will.   Pat: Do you know of any similar stories on estate control or any other podcasts where somebody's been inspired to really take action and do something with the information that that you guys are providing?   Tim: There are a lot actually over the years.   Pat: Pick your favorite.   Tim: I'm trying to think, but I will probably will I'll stick with state control and the good lord this has been, two or three years ago now. I can't remember. Crestron came out with their diamond level programming. If you're not familiar with with Crestron sort of by programmers there are, number of years there was sweat three different metals and was bronze silver and gold and then they came out with platinum and then they came out with diamond. And we did a special episode with the first ever diamond programmers. Now two of them were Crestron employees but still there was there was four of them that were that were first ever and out of that Labadie Dave hats started talking about doing diamond and he became a diamond level year later the first ever diamond that I ever knew personally right. I knew the couple of the posters of the question that but I didn't know them really well the day was the incredible fantastic very talented diamond level programmerer.   Pat: But we should also point out that it's about three weeks of work to do that certification.   Tim: Well, more than that, because then you have to do it, you have to keep it you, have to teach every year.   Pat: So it's a real investment.   Tim: It's incredible investment and even with the one thing that I find fascinating, is you have to teach outside of your discipline and what I mean by that is, Dave is a network programmer, he could take you know network control and and and run with all day long he's a commercial programmer, he has done commercial programming for years, so the first class he did was buy a home.   Pat: Was resi.   Tim: Was residential automation. Fish out of water. As our water and that's with a duty right. That's what they do to you. To stretch your arms and to get you kind of on the path of making sure that you are not as a real well rounded, right. I'm obviously Hatz probably has you know, fifteen pro3's in this house and use fully automated the only service dog food every morning you know outlaw doc brown. But you know it it's, there is something where it's you're getting outside of your comfort zone and outside of what you do on a daily basis.   Pat: So, I've had to make his decision myself and I decided for the time being not to make that huge investment in the next level of Crestron programming just because, yeah, does it really make a difference? And you know, from what you're telling me, this guy was inspired to make this huge investment, from one of your shows. I don't know, what do you think, does it really? Maybe it's a country thing, here in Germany maybe they just don't look at certifications the same way. They all kind of look the same and blur, but is there, yeah.   Tim: This is why it depends: You're an independent programmer. I have been outside of the spec part of the AV industry for probably too long, so I understand that when I say what I'm gonna say. I have not yet run into a situation, where somebody has put on us back, that they want a diamond level programmer. It doesn't mean, that they're not out there. I'm just saying that I have not personally run into or heard about a spec I ate in our P. where somebody has put down but they want a diamond level I am certain that there is at least one or two out there that that they've asked for. And the other side of that is there very few situations where it be where it would be warranted.   Pat: Well, that's the other thing, yeah.   Tim: By and large most course for most programmers I know Crestron AMX external, most of them that are worth their salt and they get they get their certification, can handle a vast majority, of thrown at them. Yes, there are building automation's where you know what you're doing. right. And for that I would say a higher level of certification would be needed. And what you should be called out of respect, but if that's what your business is and that's what you talk about what you do on a daily basis a personal question then.   Pat: You know, sure sure, got to be decided on a case by case basis   Tim: Yep.   Pat: Alright shifting back TV nation. I remember running into you a few years ago and you quietly whispered to me in my ear that you were I'm gonna go a hundred percent all in with AV Nation. Do you remember that time?   Tim: I do.   Pat: So what was the biggest reason was the biggest thing that that gave me the confidence to make that jump?   Tim: Two things. First one the the support of my wife. Of any ship flight that you have to have the support of your partner, regardless of who that is.   Pat: Absolutely.   Tim: Certainly it was it was a weird combination. So we had just started monetizing aviation and and by what I said just I mean we had this was the first start, we had just started taking on money from other people up at that point it was completely financed by me. I was financing and by doing some outside jobs. We had just completed our first trip ISE, which was a can credibly successful Kickstarter for us. It was very humbling, because up to that point well Infocomm was a trip that almost went to anyway. So we were kinda able to kind of couple together and I could cover whatever nobody else could. But ISE was different, ISE was a big chunk of money. It was ten grand was our budget show and our listeners came through in our supporters came through in a huge winds quickly on more, but also prove something that we could do it and we could do it differently, than other people and that's kind of what our thing is. We cover the industry in a unique way because we're all in the industry. And so I wanted to finance it in a different way to kinda keep with with who we are. And so after I see that year was actually I was I is the twenty fifteen twenty fifteen to that I was looking around like, okay what's what makes sense to me and I'm a big fan of NPR and PBS and BBC in the UK and an image are an arcane and just the way they think their model is which is pretty much be a publicly financed but no undue influence, I guess the best way to put this.   Pat: Okay.   Tim: And so the way that we have our contracts with our underwriting structured is, there's no real influence. And you know that's just kind of the the way we we wanted to go. And so we were starting to take on some money, not a whole lot but enough to offset into where I didn't have to the side projects anymore. And the company that I worked for, was eighty eight, independent programming house. I was the they operate the ops manager for. We got sold to a local integration firm in Saint Louis of folks that I have a lot of respect for. Good friends with. They were one of our biggest clients at at the time. And some sitting in this meeting and not really knowing what to expect from them. They were very gracious, they had all these ideas for me. They wanted to do this and this and this and I'm sitting here in this meeting going „this is a unique place in my life, this is a unique time and I have an opportunity, I can absolutely take this job. I could take this job and I could work this job for a year two years five years whatever. But AN Nation at the time was in a unique spot that I was I it was it was when those moments where you either take it full bore and and and and take it out and spend it and take it out for a test drive and see what it's capable of. Or you just keep in the garage and it's something that you can tinker with on the weekend.   And in that moment I just kind of decided well this is this is my time to figure out whether or not this is something real or not. Without this is something that people can really honestly sustain or not.   And I told them that and I remember the owner, who's become a very good friend of mine and one of my business mentors, says „well it sounds like you're quitting, before you ever start“ and I said, „well I kind of am“ and so I left that meeting oddly on cloud nine. Not having a job. I was unemployed, thoroughly. And it has been the scariest and craziest two and a half years of my life and I would not do it differently.   Pat: Excellent. I like how you mentioned you had to recognize the opportunity, that was happening. It was the it was a special opportunity that came you had the Kickstarter you had maybe a few underwriters so you kind of proven that there was a need for it that it could become something and then the company getting sold was kind of a catalyst to to kind of snap your into reality and say „wait a minute, I can either do this or that“ and then you chose this road. So what was what was really your biggest concern at the time what what were you worried about?   Tim: Paying my bills.   Pat: Yeah obviously.   Tim: I mean so it's interesting, that when I tell people my story, they're the ones that one of the more common questions is „you have your wife“ and yet „you have kids right like „yeah yeah that I've a mortgage I have to to pay for in Ohio.   Pat: Are you mentally stable?   Tim: No, no I'm not. You know, but now that's that's the biggest concern every month you know and and you know there are months that are better than others. And well I have a really good friend, I have known Michael for over twenty years he has recently in the last year and a half he has gone out on his own is does he does IT consulting. And he will be on me the powerful, for advice and I'm you know is is one thing we were I'll tell him is like looking out there there are going to be days and they're gonna be months that are horrible, right where you are going to question your own sanity in question your own your own brains. But we've gotten to the point where we are are stable and we are solid. And I'm I'm happy with on or the underwriters that we have them happy with the group that we've got and so out of that stability you okay so what were stable now it's taken us two and a half years to get stable but were stable so okay so what does any good entrepreneur wants wants a stable, you try to grow right.   And so we're in the process of doing some things that were were assessing some things and going okay you know what can we do to be a silly bigger for her sake but what can we do better? Right? What what can we do better how can we do things are even more differently and how can we reach more people and how can we do it more efficiently and how can we make our underwriters lives easier and how can we connect with more integrators and and what are we not just covering and were we not doing and you know we we started doing adjustments expo last year twenty seventeen. For the first time and we are doing it again this year, because our integrators are telling us that deals digital signage as a particle is important to them, so okay so you spend two days in Vegas right honestly Patrick it's the cheapest show that I do , from a from a cost standpoint, so it is the least expensive show that we cover and it's you know I'm in Saint Louis so I tell people, I'm spoiled as far as he is whites it takes me I get any place in the country in three hours you know at the most and Vegas is among those and you know southwest being southwest you can get in a fight pretty cheaply and you know hotels in Vegas Sir you depends on where you stay obviously but you know those little relatively inexpensiveunless you go during CIS, which I've heard really horror stories about that, but that's a whole nother issue: But you know it's it to you you grow from a stability standpoint and a you stretch and you see what's possible and you know we're not perfect by any stretch the imagination we have our own issues and and we're still learning how to be a website as opposed to in in addition to being a podcast company and that comes with that with its own challenges, because it's something that we never had to worry about you know was a website traffic because our our podcasting traffic is is what it does. And so that comes with is its own set of challenges and trying to shore that up and and learn because as a business owner I have to make I have to make intelligent decisions so the way that I make decisions, I want to learn everything about right I'll be an expert but I had to have I have to know enough to make an informed decision, so you know learning about you know things like you mentioned SEO and learning about things like making sure things are in proper categories and making sure that your , you're promoting so proper and all this other „hoo hah“ that I never had to worry about you know five years ago. So that's a learning. It's a way that we can we're able to become better and and serve our clients in in our our listeners better is okay, we're good you know we're or stable now now let's start stretching.   Pat: Excellent, sounds great. Any plans for the future you'd care to share with us?   Tim: Take over the world.   Pat: Really? With a podcast?   Tim: Absolutly. Here’s the thing- we I see online media, as not just the future of media in general, but I see it as as kind of where we're going as a society and I do mean it is a global society. I still believe in print, I think print is a is a fantastic medium, I think the journalists that worked at The New York Times SEM are fantastic people. Right? I think they do an incredible job of what they do, but I also look at what time magazine is doing on time magazine, if you've never heard of them is little magazine right, but they start out being being a print magazine. If you go to Times website you're going to see as much video as you are written conduct and you take the flip side of that company that started out as being just as video on that CNN, CNN start out being just video right. It was the cables news network, well with the the onset of of the of the internet are there is much written as they are video on their website now so you've got you've got to be as a media company you have to be everything are you have to provide folks written content as well as video and I would argue also as well as audio all you have to give your audience what they want in the format that they wanted an you regardless of whether you're covering audio visual or you're covering politics you have to give folks what you what they want in the way that they want it. And it took us a long time to realize that it really really dead because I thought blocks right I thought blogs I thought press releases I fought you know written content I'll let them right on the folks that help me run AV Nation will tell you that but I finally realize that you know what yet not everybody likes listening to me talk right not everybody likes looking and looking and then when watching some people just simply like to read , okay so you gonna go down that road as well. But no I mean I am I am fully ensconced in my business owners share. !I wanna take over the world, I want to be the number one you know audio visual media platform, I want to be the number one audio visual media company out there I would be number one and I I say that very humbly and but very honestly you know I am also a competitor, as well as a broadcaster and so how you do that you listen to your people you listen to you you listen to people who give you feedback , you make adjustments and you say okay to that just don't work and if it didn't well then you go back to the drawing board okay what what what's next.   Pat: Excellent, excellent. Well, you're doing a great job you're definitely on the path. You know I'm a big fan. I remember the first time you called me for a programming job, that's the first time we met.   Tim: Yep.   Pat: And I was like holy crap, it's Tim, I heard your voice on the other side of a phone and not coming through my car speakers, so yeah there's a there's a lot about the power of you know audio and voice and things like that but but the other know die that you were mentioning it sounds a lot like the way people learn too. Like some people learn better with text, others with video and I guess the news is a form of of learning too. The next big change could be right, you're saying that there's this move to video. What happens when everybody has a pair of googles?   Tim: No, not everybody will have a pair of googles.   Pat: No, no, because then you're there, like it doesn't get more real.   Tim: Well, the reason I say that is because I am, objects are right I am that you know that that lost generation between the damn boomers in the damn memorials and yeah so we're we're you know we're that we are the forgotten generation at and you know there there is you know our our kids are kids may very well have goggles the more likely than not our grandkids or great grand grand kids may very well have the goggles but in the meantime it is the augmented reality of the cell phone right and you know it it's the reason I say that we we probably don't have goggles is is does he goes back you go back to 3D. one of the main reasons the three D. never really took off to the people who were in the glasses if they don't have to wear glasses.   Pat: Sure.   Tim: I'm thirty three years old and I don't have to wear glasses knock on wood right so do you think Zak like you know my dad was forty when he started wearing his readers and I'm forty three and I still don't have to so I and I will fight it tooth and nail but I I'm legitimately I'm not I'm not fighting and there's a there's a box over there with the small print I can still read it now you know once I get to that point with wearing glasses you know I I don't know that I'll feel differently but I would say that if you don't have to wear glasses you're probably not really apt to even if it's going to give you some weird experiences however okay if you are already looking at yourself or let's be very Frank about it we all are right arm then you you kind of lean towards that and there's there's where some of the the I a are going to come from in our years honestly there's some games out there and there's some programs out there with that I'll let you you know see stuff on your desk if you know if you look at it through the through your lands and I'll give you an augmented reality experience.   Pat: It's gonna be interesting however plays out. So given your background in the AV press do you have any ideas on for somebody if they're coming out with a new software based solution or even if it's hardware based something new and different approach to solving something in AV? Do you have any ideas or advice on how to raise awareness for something like?   Tim: Two things. First of all get yourself a couple integrators to buy into it, because here's the thing so regardless of what the press release says this is the this is the latest greatest thing in the history the world and it will change how everybody does business in a brief period in the sentence right, I just wrote somebody's press release with, it doesn't matter if you don't have somebody to sell it to and to give the people in the press, a use case because with very few exceptions, the vast majority of audiovisual press have never been in the back of Iraq pulling cable.   Pat: Okay.   Tim: And as much respect as I have for them and I have a lot of respect for for everybody that that I work alongside in the process of the AB industry that is one thing that that they don't have as they do they've never worked anywhere right so that you're gonna tell them its latest greatest thing I don't care what the display with its control program over to switcher. They're gonna look at the specs and their comparison up to an old the on the previous model and they're gonna say you know this does X. amount more or this does this and the other and number one the kind of had to take your word for it unless you're there physically going to get a hold a bit and I have the testing equipment to test your hypothesis in in your your marketing speak or they're gonna talk to any writers that they trust that they've developed relationships with. They all do you know they're out there they all do their job right they did they have any brothers that they trust that they can bring to other they can bring a product to and say what do you think about this and why. And then no cultivate you know I'll use their their opinions is as part of their of their coverage because these are the folks are using on a daily and weekly basis, so I would advise you to obviously connect with the press but also connect yourself with some integrators and that you can point the press two and say look here is Susie's AV emporium who's been using this product for six months and this is what they think.   Pat: All right. Great stuff, thanks for that. Tim, I think we can go on for a long time here, we're gonna have to do a part two some time   Tim: Ok, whatever. You're in Germany so you can stay up as late as you will.   Pat: Exactly, I think the kids will be knocking on the door here and running the podcast any minute so...   Tim: It wouldn't be the first time.   Pat: Exactly thank you so much for being on the show.   Tim: Absolutely.   Even with that shift in my head and and shipped in my philosophy, I sat there for probably, five minutes, yeah I'm wearing and blundering and just putting off quitting pressing record, before it will before we did our first show, once I pressed record and I started, it was down hill, but it was the active physically pressing record and saying what I had been trained to say which is three to one before ever start recording, it was that act that I was I was putting off right, I was it was that for whatever reason that pressing that record button was so difficult and in the moment. You know I had talked around I'd never met him before I had Linda from this who was a long time AV industry journalist, out her husband works for, okay booking audio and then I had my buddy Michael physically next to me right we're sitting in my college radio station that I top production and at the time and you know I've got things kind of Jerry rigged between two different computers and and a recording system and it's on the other, but it was until I hit record that it actually started doing anything in my head   Pat: Yeah, have you heard about the war of art?   Tim: No.   Pat: He talks about exactly that it calls it the resistance he gives it a name he calls it resistance and he goes into this whole book is explaining how the resistance is out to get you and prevent me from doing everything you're meant to do it's it's a great book, are the war of art tour of art and, it's a good one to read for ten minutes in the morning to then she did to fix your head right.   Tim: Okay. 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Do you dread pricing design jobs when you don't know how long they'll take? Have you ever had to quote on a design job but you have no idea how long it will take to complete it? If you're familiar with Project Based Pricing or Value Based Pricing then it isn't really an issue. But if you're one of the many designers who bill by the hour you may dread this scenario.  In this episode of the Resourceful Designer podcast, I talk about what you can do when you have no idea how long a project will take. Be sure to listen to the episode for the full story. Pricing design jobs by the hour. It takes a lot of practice to correctly guess how long a design job will take to complete. Notice I used the word "guess"? Because that's what it is, a guess. If you guess wrong you could loose a lot of money on the job. The only way to protect yourself if to pad your guess by overestimating which isn't good for your client. But what if there's another way that works for both you and your clients? Actual time billing. When the scope of a design project is such that there's no way to determine how long it will take, offer to bill for the actual time you spend on the job. Many clients will accept a contract stating you will bill them your hourly rate for the total time you spend working on their project. This is the easiest method and it benefits both you and your client. You know you won't loose any money on the design project, and your client knows they won't overpay on the job. But what if the client is worried you'll take too long? If your client is hesitant to sign your contract, you could offer a maximum price for the project. You bill them by the hour for the time you spend working on the project up to the maximum price, providing the scope of the job hasn't changed. This option should satisfy worried clients and make you look good when you come in under the maximum price. Just be sure the maximum price you set is enough to cover any unforeseen complications that may arise during the project. How do you handle pricing design jobs with undefined time lines? Let me know by leaving a comment for this episode. Questions of the Week Submit your question to be featured in a future episode of the podcast by visiting the feedback page. This week’s question comes from Tim How many works/projects/clients do you normally allow yourself to take in simultaneously within a week? To find out what I told Tim you’ll have to listen to the podcast. Tip of the week Get your Clients to pay for it. When it comes to hardware, software, plugins, fonts etc., If you need to purchase something for a specific project then you should be charging the client for it. Even if it's something you will be able to use in the future for other clients. There is nothing wrong with telling a client you require something to complete their project and including it on your invoice. You can then use that item as a selling feature or service you offer for future clients. Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe on iTunesSubscribe on StitcherSubscribe on AndroidSubscribe on Google Play Music Contact me Send me feedback Follow me on Twitter and Facebook I want to help you. Running a graphic design or web design business all by yourself isn't easy. If there are any struggles you face running your design business please reach out to me. I'll do my best to help you by addressing your issues in a future blog post or podcast episode here at Resourceful Designer. You can reach me at feedback@resourcefuldesigner.com

Our guest here in Episode 26 is Dr. Martin Gibala, the author of the book, The One-Minute Workout, Science Shows a Way to Get Fit, Smarter, Faster, Shorter. Martin Gibala, Ph.D., is also a professor and chair of the kinesiology department at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario. His research on the physiological and health benefits of high-intensity interval training has attracted immense scientific attention and worldwide media coverage.  Dr. Gibala and Adam Zickerman compare and contrast the high-intensity interval training as Dr. Giballa explains in his book with high-intensity strength training performed at all 7 InForm Fitness locations across the US.For The One-Minute Workout audio book in Audible click here:  http://bit.ly/OneMinuteWorkoutTo purchase The One-Minute Workout in Amazon click here: http://bit.ly/IFF_TheOneMinuteWorkoutDon't forget Adam's Zickerman's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution.  You can buy it from Amazon by clicking here: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTenTo find an Inform Fitness location nearest you to give this workout a try, please visit www.InformFitness.com.  At the time of this recording, we have locations in Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg and RestenIf you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com. Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. For information regarding the production of your own podcast just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards at tim@InBoundPodcasting.comThe transcription for the entire episode is below:26 Life is an Interval Training Workout InForm Fitness - The One Minute WorkoutAdam: Dr. Gibala, you have this book with an eye-raising title called the One Minute Workout, and the argument, if I may,  is this. That what you're saying is the benefits we gain from traditional two and a half hours of recommended a week exercise with moderately intense exercise, also known as steady state exercise, can also be obtained with just one minute of extremely intense exercise. Now for many this sounds too good to be true, and I'll allow you to explain how these exercise benefits can be obtained in just one minute. Now before you do that, maybe we should start with what are the benefits of exercise that we're looking for?Dr. Gibala: We're mainly interested in three primary outcomes, one being cardiorespiratory fitness so, of course, that's the cardio health that everybody normally thinks about. The ability of the heart, lungs,  blood vessels to deliver oxygen to muscle. We know that's a really important measure for athletes, but it's equally important for health. We also look at skeletal muscle health, so we'll take biopsies and look at the capacities of muscles to use the oxygen to produce energy, so we like to think of that as a measure of muscle health, and we'll also measure health-related parameters like insulin sensitivity, as well as things like blood pressure. So we're looking at a range of physiological markers that translate into improved health outcomes, and we know that any type of exercise is beneficial for all of those parameters. We're of course interested in time efficient versions to produce those benefits.Adam: Exactly. So speaking of those time efficient ways, you have termed it high-intensity interval training and would you agree with that? That's the official term for the protocol?Dr. Gibala: Absolutely. Why I just raised my eyebrows a little bit, it's been around of course since the turn of the century so high-intensity interval training is rediscovered every decade or so and that was my only reason for doing that.Adam: Got you, you're right. So how can these benefits be obtained in one minute, using the sensory old protocol?Dr. Gibala: So where the title of the book comes from is work in our lab where we've had people do as little as three twenty second hard bursts of exercise, so that's the quote unquote, one-minute workout. Now typically that's set within a timeframe of about ten minutes, so you have a little bit of warmups, cool downs, and recovery in between, but as you alluded to in your intro, we've shown that that type of training program so one minute of workout done three times a week can confer at least over several months, many of the benefits that we associate with the more traditional approach to fitness. So in our recent study where we directly compared that type of protocol to the hundred and fifty minutes a week of moderate-intensity training, the improvement in cardiorespiratory fitness was the same over three months of training. The improvement in markers of muscle health was the same, and the improvement of insulin sensitivity was the same as well. So in our lab when we made these head to head comparisons, we have some pretty compelling evidence I think at last over a couple of months, you can reap the benefits that we associate with a more traditional approach with these short, intense workouts.Adam: Let's talk a little bit more about these intense workouts. I'd like you if you will to take us back to turn of the century, 2004, when you were brainstorming with your grad students. Can you please tell us about that first experiment, and what did those muscle biopsies show? Since your first study, as a follow-up, have the results been repeated in similar studies and with other independent labs as well?Dr. Gibala: Yeah, so I guess our work at the turn of this century was influenced by work from a hundred years prior and part of my interest in this topic was I teach a course in the integrated physiology of human performance, and my students are always interested in the training regimes of elite athletes. They would wonder why do these elite endurance athletes, world champions, Olympic distance medal winners, train using these short, hard sprints. So in short, how can short, hard sprints confer endurance capacity. So that really influenced our thinking, and we wanted to ask the question well how quickly can you get these benefits, and how low can you go? We've subsequently gone lower, but at the time, there was a very common test and physiology known as the Wingate test, I'm sure you're familiar with it. It's a test that involves thirty seconds of all-out exercise on a cycle odometer, and we knew that Wingate training was effective from some other studies, but we said okay, let's have people do just six training sessions over a period of two weeks. So we argued back and forth about the number of Wingates, and how long we would have the training program last, but we settled on this very simple design; a two-week study with six sessions of interval training over the two weeks, and our primary outcomes were endurance capacity, so basically how long subjects could ride a bike until they fatigued, and muscle biopsies to look at those measures of muscle health. Lo and behold after just two weeks of training, we found a doubling of endurance capacity in the recreationally trained students, and so it was a very dramatic illustration of the potency of these short, hard workouts, to confer endurances like benefits. Since then, we've continued to push the envelope I guess in terms of how low can you go, and our work has extended out to less healthy individuals, so we've done work on people with type two diabetes, and of course have been very pleased to see other laboratories around the world replicating and extending these findings as well.Adam: We're going to get to that, what you're referring to now, with Catarina Myers work for example, that you mentioned in later chapters. What I wanted to ask you was when you said, what I want to point out right now, what you said is that you're seeing these incredible improvements and you said that study lasted two weeks. That is mind blowing. Two weeks to have those changes occur? So first of all,  I want to point out number one that that is mind blowing, secondly have you done other studies where you would do it for longer than two weeks and have those changes gotten better even after two weeks, or do they just basically stabilize at just being fantastically endurance but you're not seeing it continually — like a straight line, maybe it's more of — obviously it plateaus a little bit eventually, but anyway what do you think?Dr. Gibala: Our longest studies have gone out to a couple of months, so I think you continue to see improvements but the rate of improvement starts to decline. So in some ways it's a microcosm of what happens with any training program, the longer you do it, there's points of diminishing returns and of course, that can be very frustrating to people and it leads to periodization and all these techniques that we use. In short, you get a lot of benefit early on, so there's a tremendous boost of fitness early on, and like I said, a point of diminishing returns after that so it's not a continuous straight line. I think that's one of the benefits of interval training is you can get a boost in fitness very very quickly, and in some ways that helps with lots of other sports and events that you might want to take on after that, but you get this rapid boost in a very short period of time.Adam: Great, so now let's get to who I just mentioned a little bit earlier, Catarina Myers. The German cardiovascular physiologist who did some important research trying to answer this question: what sort of exercise can substantially slow and possibly even reverse the age-related loss of our cardiovascular function?Dr. Gibala: Catarina Myer, and actually the history there is fascinating because some of her training dates back to other classic German researchers. The Germans have had an interest in this since at least the late 1950s. Catarina Myers worked in the late 80s and early 90s — what was particularly unique about her work is she was applying interval training to patients with cardiovascular disease. So in a cardiac rehabilitation setting, these individuals who had had a heart attack and what was the best way to train these individuals to improve their function,improve their heart capacity. So it was quite revolutionary at the time because it'll go back 30 or 40 years, if an individual had a heart attack, they were basically told to take it easy, right? Lie on the couch, don't challenge past your system because you were worried about subsequent adverse events, and so Myers' work, she had cardiac patients exercise at about 90% of their maximum heart rate for typically about one minute at a time, with a minute of recovery, and she showed very profound improvements in their health outcomes and cardiovascular parameters. So she was a real pioneer I think in applying interval training to disease populations, and in particularindividuals who have cardiovascular disease, and since then, her work has expanded. In Norway for example, there's another large research center that's doing a lot of this work. It's quite common to incorporate interval training in cardiac rehabilitation settings now. Adam: It's breaking major paradigms there, to think that you could apply high-intensity exercise to somebody that just had a heart attack. It's fantastic. I'm familiar with Dr. Myers work actually. One of her papers in particular was this paper that she published in 1997. This paper was showing that of three groups, only the group that performed very intense exercise at 80% of their max were able to improve their cardiovascular function. So she had another group at 60% of their max and the control group didn't do anything, and neither one of them showed the kind of the improvements. These kinds of improvements I'm talking about is increased venus return, decreased systemic vascular resistance, an increase in cardiac index, and an increase in stroke vine. Now these are consistent with her other research that you were talking about because she did a lot of these, and what struck me about this particular one is that these cardiovascular improvements in function were done on a leg press. They weren't done on a bicycle, they were done on a leg press, so my question is do you think high-intensity resistance training can also be used to change our physiology? That it can improve our endurance, our VO2 max, and citrate synthase for example, if you were to do a muscle biopsy. The same way as say a bicycle or a treadmill.Dr. Gibala: I don't think you get the same effects, but it's going to depend on the protocol there. I think without question, high-intensity resistance exercise can be applied in an interval training manner, especially if you keep recovery durations short, and you can see some aerobic improvement. There's research to show that interval style resistance training can improve cardiorespiratory fitness, can boost some mitochondrial enzymes, can improve other health-related indices as you alluded to. My personal opinion is that a varied approach to fitness is always going to be best, and I don't think you're going to see the same cardiovascular fitness improvement with interval based cycling as you might see with high-intensity resistance exercise, but of course, the gains in strength or hypertrophy that you might see with the bike protocol are going to be markedly lower as well. So I think high-intensity resistance training applied in an interval based manner can sort of provide multiple benefits. You can get a cardiovascular boost and obviously get muscular strengthening, and some hypertrophy benefits as well.Adam: So you think the high-intensity strength training protocol is really a separate and distinct program?Dr. Gibala: I do. I think the resistance exercise element is different there, and so the stimulus for adaptation is not going to be exactly the same. Adam: Has that been tested? Have you compared let's say a Wingate type of protocol with say somebody doing a high-intensity strength training program where you're doing one set to failure with major compound movements. You're going from machine to machine with the heart rate staying elevated, and each rate is going to at least 20 seconds of what you would probably consider an interval. Like a twenty-second sprint, those last twenty seconds on the leg press ,for example, are pretty darn intense as well. Do you think it would be worthy of comparing those two types of protocols to see if you get the same benefits and improvements in citrate synthase that way, VO2 max, etc?Dr. Gibala: Yeah, I think without question it would be. Of course,we can come up with all of these comparisons that we would like and there are only so many ways that you can do it in the laboratory. When you do a Wingate test for example, we know that there's no stimulation of growth pathways, so if we look at [Inaudible: 00:13:35] signaling and some of these pathways that we know lead to skeletal muscle hypertrophy, even though Wingate test is perceived as very demanding, the relative resistance on the leg, or the relative stress on the leg is quite low as compared to heavy resistance exercise. So with most forms of cardio based, high-intensity interval training, you're not seeing growth of muscle fibers because the stimulus is just not sufficient to provide the hypertrophy stimulus. Now when you do high-intensity resistance training, as you alluded to, especially with short recovery periods, you maintain the heart rate so it's elevated, you can see improvements in cardiorespiratory fitness in addition to the strengthening and hypertrophy elements as well.Adam: I'm with you on that. I think you're right. What would you think for example, we don't know everything yet about how low we can go and the style, what tools we use for these things. I'm wondering, knowing what we know at this point, what would you think would be the perfect — for somebody who is pressed for time and doesn't have the time to put the recommended 150 minutes a week into it. What do you think would be perfect, do you think maybe two interval training workout sessions a week with some high-intensity strength training? Like what are you doing, what do you recommend to a relative of yours that just wants to get it all, and what do I need to do?Dr. Gibala: Obviously an open ended question and it depends a lot on the specific goals of the individual, but I'll sort of take the question at —Adam: Not an elite athlete. I know you work with a lot of elite athletes, we also have the population that Myers works with. Your typical person, your middle aged —Mike: Busy professional who just wants to be in shape and have the markers that you were talking about before.Dr. Gibala: If they want the time efficiency aspect — you alluded earlier, what do I do. I'm someone who trains typically every day, rarely are my workouts more than thirty minutes, and I typically go back and forth between cardio style interval training, my go to exercise is a bike. I can't run anymore because of osteoarthritis in my knee, so typically three days a week I'm doing cardio cycling. As the weather starts to get nicer it's outside, but typically in long Canadian winters, it's down in my basement. 20-25 minutes of interval based work for primary cardiovascular conditioning. The other days are largely body weight style interval training, I sort of have the classic garage set up in the basement. I've got a weight rack, I do large compound movements to failure, pushups, pull-ups, and so that's typically the other three days of the week. Usually a rest day a week, or I'll play some ice hockey as well. That's something that works really well for me, so I think for individuals, I would recommend that style of approach. If you're someone that can mentally tolerate the demanding nature of intervals, because let's be realistic here, there's no free lunch at the end of the day, but if you want that time efficiency, high quality workout, then I would recommend that alternating pattern of some sort of cardio style interval training with some sort of full body resistance style training. If you're really pressed for time and you have maybe three sessions a week, then using all interval based — maybe two resistance sessions and one cardio or vice versa. Obviously a lot of the work that you advocate is showing tremendous benefits with even one session a week, and maybe even two sessions a week in terms of that quality of style training.Adam: The search continues. Like you said, it depends on a lot of things, goals, and body types, genetics, response to exercise, and even somebody's neurological efficiency. So I get that, and the question always is when we work with thousands of individuals on a monthly basis, do you mix intervals with their strength training, how much of it, balancing all of this with their schedules, with their schedule, with their lifestyle. Are they stressed out, max type A people, do they get enough sleep. So that's why it's so valuable to talk to you, you're on the cutting edge of doing a lot of this stuff and trying to incorporate research into somebody's every day life is the art and trick to all of this I think. Until we keep learning more and more.Dr. Gibala: Absolutely, and sometimes the most fundamental questions science still doesn't have the answers to which is quite ironic, but you're right. The book was written really as an effort to translate the science around time-efficient exercise. As you all know, the number on cited reason for why people don't exercise is lack of time. Nothing wrong with the public health guidelines, based on really good science, but 80% of us aren't listening and the number one barrier is time. So if we can find time-efficient options so that people can implement this style of training into their every day life, we think that's a good thing. The more menu choices, the better. The more exercise options the better, because then ideally, people can find something that works for them, and there's no ‘one size fits all' approach.Adam: That brings me exactly to the next thing that I wanted to talk about. It's this idea that we're being told we need 150 minutes. That's two and a half hours a week to work out, and you make a very interesting point in chapter five of the One Minute Workout. You say despite knowing that exercise has all these near magical qualities, approximately 80% of the people from America, Canada, and the United Kingdom don't get the recommended 150 minutes that they need, and you say that's a problem. You point out something very interesting, I didn't know this, it's very cool. You point out that lifespan has jumped ahead of our health span, and I'd love for you to tell us what the difference is between lifespan and health span and what that means.Dr. Gibala: Yeah sure. So lifespan is just that, how long you're going to live, but health span encompasses — I call it how close to the ceiling you can work. So basically you want to live a long life, but ideally, you want a long, healthy life as well so you can think of it as functional capacity in addition to longevity. I think most of us, you want to live as long as you can and as my grandmother would say, you sort of fall off the perch right at the very end. In a high standard of living, a high quality of living, so that you can do all the things that you like as long as possible and so exercise I think is a tremendous way to do that. You bring up a good point, that as we age, perhaps there's a little shift there. Obviously, strength is important and cardiorespiratory fitness is important, but especially as we start to get older, functional strength is really important. If you look at what's going to keep people out of assisted living, it's basically can you squat down and go the toilet and get up from that.Mike: It's getting off the floor, exactly.Dr. Gibala: So functional training to maintain lower body strength, that's what we're talking about in terms of health span. You may be living a long time but if you need all this assistance in order to get by, that's not necessarily a high standard or quality of living. So that's what we're really talking about here and improving both of them.Adam: So think about this. Despite knowing how important it is to put those 150 minutes in because you're going to have this life of misery and your health span is going to be horrible, people don't do it. You quote this guy Allen Batterham from Teesside University in the United Kingdom, who says that we have, I'm quoting him — actually quoting you quoting him, that we have this perverse relationship with exercise. So here we are, we know what we have to do but we don't, and this is where high-intensity training is so cool because — well first of all, why do we have this perverse relationship with exercise?Dr. Gibala: There's a multifaceted answer. I think Allen made the observation that we have hunger pains to get us to eat, so there's that innate biological drive. For reproduction, there's a sex drive, but there's not necessarily this innate biological drive to be physically active and that was the perversity that Allen was making the point, that even though it's so good for us. Obviously, you can take the evolutionary perspective and for the vast majority of human civilization, we had to be physically active to survive. We had to either sprint and hunt down an animal and kill it and eat it, or you had to spend a long time gathering food. Especially over the last hundred years or so, we've done a great job of engineering physical activity out of our lives through the ways we designed cities and — so now we basically have to make time to be doing this activity that's so good for us, and ironically we seemingly don't have time to do it. Clearly an excuse for a lot of people, you just look at time spent on social media, but a lot of lead very busy, time pressed lives so we're looking for more efficient options to be able to fit all of that other stuff into our day, and I think this is where intervals can play a really big role.Adam: Exactly, it's fascinating. So keeping this exercise avoidance issue mind, what has your friend and exercise psychologist, Mary — how does she pronounce her last name — Jung, I'm assuming there's no relationship to the psychiatrist Carl Jung. What did she discover and what was her advice, because you talk about that she has these five tips for starting an exercise program.Dr. Gibala: Sure, and I'm not a psychologist — what I tried to do in the book was consult with some other experts, and there's a real rift right now, as we make the point in the book, around the potential application of high-intensity interval training for public health, there's sort of two schools of thought. The traditional school of thought would be that people aren't going to do this because if exercise is intense, they find it uncomfortable, they're unlikely to do it and stick with it, but there's a whole new school of thought and Mary epitomizes this. We're saying wait a minute, continuous vigorous exercise is very different from vigorous exercise where we give people breaks, and especially if they don't have to do very much of it. So Mary is very interested in issues of motivation, mood, adherence; what keeps people to stick with healthy behaviors, and her research is showing that a large number of people actually rate the enjoyment of interval exercise higher, and they would prefer this type of training and they're more than willing to make this type of tradeoff between volume and intensity. So if they have to do less total work, they're more willing to work hard for short periods of time. We get this habit, Mary makes the point that if people can't do 30-45 minutes of continuous exercise, they consider themselves a failure, they might beat themselves up a little bit. She's like wait a minute, even if you can do a few minutes of exercise, take a break, do it again, let's celebrate that. So rather than beat yourself up, view it as I'm an interval training, I'm doing this type of training that elite athletes have used for a long time. It's sort of turning a negative into a great message.Mike: For us, failure is the only option.Adam: When you were talking about this in your book and talking about her work, I was screaming amen, because for twenty years that I've been in the high-intensity business myself, I'm seeing the same thing. So many people would much rather do this, in a much briefer time and get it over with than drag it out all week long. I remember when I told my mom twenty years ago that I was going to do this for a living, and she knew that I was a little nutty when it came to high-intensity work and she said Adam, people are not going to workout that hard, you're nuts. I would never workout the way you workout. Granted I was doing crazy like Crossfit stuff, high force, dangerous stuff. I've created a more gentler, kinder way of doing that but nonetheless, it was really intense but much shorter. I said mom, I don't know, I think if someone thinks they're going to be — number one safe, and getting it over with even though it's more intense, I think they're going to do it. I said wish me look, because I'm going for it, and by the way I'm moving back into the house because I have no money. Anyway I moved out a year later. I didn't know about Mary Jung's work, and I was reading in your chapter I was like see mom, I told you there's proof now.Dr. Gibala: In some ways science plays catch up a little bit. You alluded to the fact that you've been doing it for twenty years, so people are seeing this in real life and again the book was really just an effort to say there's some gaps in the science, but here's science to hopefully validate what a number of individuals are already doing, but they can point to this and say see it is backed up by science. So it was really an effort to translate that science into a message, that hopefully people can find in an accessible read, and hopefully in a compelling manner as well.Adam: So without getting into every single work that you describe because you get into a whole different number of variations, maybe you can just give us two typical ones that you would recommend for someone who really has never done intervals before, and how would you get them started?Dr. Gibala: As crazy as it sounds, we have a workout that's called the beginner which is just. So if we have people who are completely new to interval training, we'll just say just get out of your comfort zone. Don't try to go from zero to a hundred overnight, but just push the pace a little bit and back off. It's based on research that shows that even interval walking is better for people at improving their blood sugar, improving their fitness, improving their body composition, as compared to steady state walking. So that's about as simple as it gets, interval based walking, but it can really effective. One of my favorites is the 10x1 which is workouts based on Katarina Myers' work, so it's twenty minutes start to finish. Not super time efficient but it's not a 45 minute jog either, and I like that workout — so this workout involves ten one minute efforts at about 85 or 90% of your maximum heart rate, so you're pushing it pretty good but you're not going all out, and that workout has been applied to cardiovascular patients, diabetics, highly trained athletes as well, so it's a type of workout that can be scaled seemingly to almost any starting level of fitness. It's also then I think the type of workout that can be scaled to other approaches as well, so if you want to bring in resistance type exercise, it's a little more suited to that type of protocol as well, and then, of course I love the one minute workout as well because it's so effective and so efficient. We've had people do the one-minute workout on stairs now, just three twenty second bursts of stair climbing. Again, you can do it anywhere, in your apartment, in your office complex, showing that you get a big boost in fitness with that type of workout as well. So those lower volume workouts I think, they're in your wheelhouse I'm sure and really resonate with some of the stuff that you've been applying for a long time now.Adam: Yes, and I'm so glad that your research has been making me realize that my life decision twenty years ago, my instincts weren't so off, so thank you so much.Dr. Gibal: To go back to this idea that the public health guidelines, only 20% are listening. For those folks who say people won't do this, I would point at the ACSM, worldwide fitness trends for the last couple of years. Interval training and body weight style training, on the top, two or three many years running now, so I think there is a lot of interest in this type of training, if only to provide people with more options number one, and on those days when they are time pressed and might otherwise blow off their workout, no. Even if you've got fifteen minutes, you can get in a quality training session.Mike: Everybody sees the trends, the New York Times with the seven-minute workouts, the bootcamps, you can see all the chatter. Fitting Room is one of the things that they have in New York City, I don't know if it's beyond New York City but what we're trying to present is a safe option for creating that exact same stimulus in the same time.Adam: Especially when the safety is around weight training. So all the weight training injuries, so it becomes even more important when you have weights attached to your body to make that intensity safer. Dr. Gibala: Absolutely and you're spot on there. I think maybe it's a little bit easier for some people to apply these cardio style workouts on their own, but getting qualified instruction from people who know what they're doing is really important, especially when it comes to the resistance based stuff.Adam: So now, you end your book with a nutrition chapter and I don't know, weight loss. I've never really put too much credence in exercise for weight loss, it's generally a diet thing, but there's definitely a synergy if you will, an approach. If weight loss is part of your goal, and I always joke around, only half joking around because there is truth to this, that a lot of people that do these high intensity workouts and workout in general, they always that I'm concerned about my cardiorespiratory health, but if I told them that it doesn't help your cardiorespiratory health — or actually if I told them that it doesn't help them lose weight, they just wouldn't do it. They say they care about their heart, but really if they found out that they're not going to lose any weight doing this, they walk out the door. So let's face it, we all care about losing weight and what is the contribution of high-intensity interval training to weight loss and is there a one-two punch with high-intensity interval training and diet. And sorry if the sirens in New York City are overpowering me.Dr. Gibala: It's fine, and I agree with you, whether it's 90/10, whether it's 80/20, clearly the energy inside of the equation is much more important. Controlling body size, body composition through diet is the primary driver there. Exercise can play a role with weight loss maintenance I think over time. High-intensity interval training just like it's a time efficient way to boost fitness, it's a time efficient way to burn calories, but the primary driver is still going to be nutrition, and so we've shown in our lab that a twenty minute session of intervals can result in the same calorie burn as a 55 minute of continuous exercise, so again, if you're looking for time-efficient ways to burn calories, intervals can be a good strategy there. Personal trainers talk about the after burn effect, this idea of a heightened rate of metabolism in recovery. It's often overstated but it's real, we've measured it and demonstrated it in the lab, but again, they're small. As you all know, the key controlling variable there is the nutrition side and you use the exercise side to help maintain that over time, and it's mainly important about cardiorespiratory fitness but you're right, the people are still interested with how they look in the mirror, absolutely, all of us are.Adam: I'm sorry, it's not going to be in your exercise camp. Exercise does a lot for us, but we put too many attributes on exercise's shoulders if you will. Let's leave that one off please. It does enough, you don't have to also ask it to lose thirty pounds.Dr. Gibala: People think you exercise to lose weight and that's what confers all the fitness benefits. We like to just remind them, there's that straight line between exercise and fitness, regardless of the number on the scale, and if you want to attack that number on the scale, you've got to make changes on the diet side. Adam: I appreciate all your time, and I've been monopolizing the whole conversation. I'm just curious if Tim or Sheila or Mike had any other questions or comments they'd like to make before we wrap this up?Tim: Sure. If you don't mind Dr. Gibala, one of the questions that I had was for somebody middle aged to pick up this high-intensity interval training, HIIT, what are some of the risks involved for somebody that says look, I haven't worked out in years, I want to get started. You mentioned earlier a beginner program but what are some of the risks you'd be looking out for?Dr. Gibala: The first one is our standard advice is always that if you're thinking about starting or changing your exercise routine, you want to check with your physician. We're doing a study right now with interval training in people with type two diabetes, and most of these individuals are fifty, sixty years old, many of them are overweight. So the first thing is they go through a full, exercise stress test cardiac screening. Now that's obviously in a research setting, but I think checking with your doctor is always good advice on the individual level, because that's going to potentially catch something, or maybe there's an underling reason that you might not be cleared to engage in vigorous exercise so let's get that out of the way. That being said, interval training has been applied broadly, in many different ways, to all of these people that we were talking about. Cardiovascular disease, type two diabetes, metabolic syndrome, elderly individuals, and so I think there's a type of program interval training that's suitable for just about anyone. I go back to my earlier comments, you want to start out easier, so don't go from being on the couch to the one-minute workout of sprinting up stairs as hard as you can. Progress to that beginner workout or maybe the 10x1 or some of these other workouts that we star in the book. Again, it sounds like common sense and it is. Start out slow, build, progress from there. So the risks, exercise carries a transient risk. Let's be realistic about that and so when you're engaged in exercise, your risk of having a cardiac event is slightly higher, but the other 23 and a half hours of the day when you're not exercising, your risk is markedly lower. So if the choice is even a single weekly bout of high-intensity exercise or nothing, you're much better off doing the exercise. Here in Canada, you read the high-profile reports of the ice hockey player skates on a Friday night in a beer league with his buddies, and occasionally there's these one off tragic events were someone has a heart attack and dies on the ice. Very tragic for this individual and people get scared of exercise and it's like no on the big picture level, if you look at the epidemiological studies they will tell you that single weekly bout of exercise is protective in terms of reducing your risk of dying, but again, at the individual level, you want to make sure that you're probably screened and cleared to begin with.Adam: That was a point you made in your book and I thought it was great.Dr. Gibala: We talk to some of these people who write the exercise guidelines, who deal every day — we talked to Paul Thompson, who is an expert exercise cardiologist and that's the point that he made. He said that if your choices are remaining sedentary or doing HIIT, do HIIT. If you're an older individual with some risk factors who is not time pressed, then maybe consider the moderate approach, but that message doesn't resonate with a lot of individuals so I think as an individual, get checked by your physician, but people don't need to be afraid of interval training. It comes in lots of different flavors, and there's a flavor in my mind that's suitable for just about anyone.Mike: Right. Are there any known cardiac conditions where you have to be concerned about it that we know about? Valve or something?Dr. Gibala: I'm not a cardiologist but certainly some schemas, some unstable anginas, things like this where those are really high-risk individuals that need to be carefully monitored, but I point to the fact that there's a lot of cardiac rehabilitation programs now that are incorporating interval exercise and resistance exercise on a regular basis.Mike: You spoke before about how you get a new boost. Like if you're doing intervals for the first time you get a boost, and after a while, it goes up and then there's some diminishing returns after a while. With your studies, with your experiments there, if you vary the stimulus, like say you do the beginner for a while, and then you find that you plateau. Have you shown that you just do a different interval workout and a new boost will happen?Dr. Gibala: I think a varied approach is always going to be best. I think there were take some clues from the athletes again. Periodized training over the course of a season really is just about changing up workouts, hitting the body in different ways, and it's just a common sense strategy that even average, recreational based people can incorporate. So yes, stick with a program for a bit of time, and then vary it up, or if you want, change the interval workouts every week, but the body thrives on variety. After a while, anyone is going to get a stale doing the same thing, so that's why I think that varied approach to fitness is always going to be best.Sheila: Adam actually asked the question that I was going to ask. It's the question that most girls usually want to know about is burning fat. What I have a question about is are there any apps that you know of or do you have an app? Like I love apps, like you go outside and you have your phone and your headphones, like is there an app to do these different types of interval training?Dr. Gibala: There are, a ton of them. Personally, I don't use a specific one, but even recently I've gotten this question on Twitter so I've answered it a number of times and just pointed to a few sites that have the top ten best interval training apps. I think you can find a lot of them out there and it makes it easy. You sort of short your brain off and you just go when it says to go, and you back off when it says to stop. There's lots of options out there.Sheila: Exactly, great. So I'll check that out and maybe we'll list them in the show notes here.Tim: How about rest and recovery, Dr. Gibala? Here at InForm Fitness, we go and workout once a week, we workout hard for 20-30 minutes, and then we take that week off to recover and prepare for that next workout. With this interval training, do you have any recommended rest and recovery periodsDr. Gibala: I think it comes back to the intensity interval, so the more intense the nature of the training, the longer the recovery needs to be. It depends a little bit on if you're talking about training for performance, training for health, so there's all those variables but I think as a general rule of thumb, the more intense the interval, the longer the period of recovery that you're going to need, and the more intense the interval training session, the longer the recovery days in between you might need. Again, it's really individual then in terms of what you're specifically looking for, especially if it's just general health or if it's performance.Tim: So if somebody is near an InForm Fitness or decides to do this somewhere else perhaps, they can just listen to their body if they don't have a trainer.Dr. Gibala: Again, lots of common sense stuff but it's common sense for a reason. It makes a lot of sense.Adam: That's a great way we can wrap it up I think, that says it all right there. This whole workout just makes sense, this whole idea that it's the intensity over duration. Dr. Gibala: The other moniker we've come up with is life is an interval training workout. We don't just sort of plod through life like this, you run to catch the subway or whatever, so I think this alternating pattern, alternating energy demands, interval training rewards that. Adam: Well thank you so much, I really enjoyed this talk. I appreciate your work so much. Don't retire anytime soon please, keep going, there's still a lot to find out, and I hope we can stay in touch.Dr. Gibala: Pleasure to speak with all of you, I really appreciate the opportunity to be on the show and the great, insightful questions. Thanks for this opportunity.  

Tim takes on a recent initiative of Amnesty International to "Legalize" prostitution. His issue with their policy lies in the difference between "legalization" and "decriminalization". He argues that what they are proposing would endanger more children and ultimately undermine the efforts of many people to save kids from sex trafficking.   Tim: Hi! Thank you for joining us! This is a very special bonus edition of the Slave Stealer podcast. If you have been listening to us for a while, you know that there are a lot of aspects to human trafficking. So many drivers, so many factors. Sometimes we don’t always get the chance to elaborate within the context or whatever it is that we are talking about, but one big issue that deserves more treatment is this current push by Amnesty International to legalize all prostitution. What they are trying to do now is go out to all the countries and influence them to legalize this work. Now, there is some merit to parts of their argument, but I contend, and I contend passionately, that this legislation, if it got that far, would absolutely devastate millions of children who would be caught up in the wake of prostitution. They would be caught up in the wake... They would be caught up as victims, they would be rapedthemselves. So after we spoke with President Vicente Fox of Mexico, we got on the topic of Amnesty International’s plan, and I think I got a little fired up, so I want you to go ahead and hear what I had to say. So, let’s go and roll that.   Tim: And, people don’t believe us sometimes - "Oh bull crap, we don’t believe that"- or they will see a trafficking case, we will show footage and they see what looks like a victim going willingly into this place: "Well, they walked in. They weren’t dragged in by chains." And, I get it, but it is also very offensive because I know that these kids are slaves. I see them before and during and after. We could have Elizabeth Smart come in sometime and talk about that. Don’t say anything like that in her presence because she received that criticism: "When you were in captivity, why didn’t you just run away? Why didn’t you tell the policeman who you were when he confronted you with your captors in the library that day?" And she will tell you that a child’s mind doesn’t think like an adult’s mind, and it can be very easily manipulated and really brainwashed and rewired to the point that when Elizabeth was rescued, she didn’t even admit who she was. She was still denying who she was as she was even put into the police car and taken to her father, ok. And that’s the thing people don’t understand about human trafficking, and so they misidentify the victims. Police departments have been doing it for decades. I think...in the last decade or so, I think they are trying to get out of this where they treat all prostitutes as criminals. They didn’t even stop to ask the question, 'How did she get here?' Maybe she is 19 years old, but did you know that she was kidnapped at 12 and forced into this life? And yeah, now she is acting out, and she is yelling and cussing at you, and she "doesn’t want to be rescued." But she is a victim, and she needs to be treated as a victim until you figure out what is going on. And a lot more needs to be done there, but progress has been made where these women and children are not being seen as criminals anymore but as victims, but much more needs to be done in that area. Mark: That is a legislative issue, obviously. Are those national statutes that need to be passed or are they local? Explain prosecution of prostitutes. Explain that whole dilemma to me, I don’t get it. Tim: There is some legislative there, but there is also a lot of just how you administer or how the law enforcement administers or what questions they ask, right. Because to be prosecuted for say prostitution, requirements within that statutes have to be met. And part of that is willingly, and it was your intent to do these things. And it is easy just to make the assumption, 'that was your intent, you wanted to do this, and so you’re guilty.' So sometimes, it is not just the laws. The laws can be clarified, sure - you can always, you should add a requirement and say even if this prostitute, this person you have brought in...even if they are an adult, you have to prove that they meant to do this, that they wanted to do this, that this was the life that they chose. Mark: They weren’t coerced. Tim: They weren’t coerced into it. Mark: Ok. Tim: And so the questions, but the questions... The problem is, even when you have decent legislation and decent statutes, you don’t have law enforcement asking the questions, digging deeper: "Who are you? Where did you come from? How did you get into this? How old were you when you got into this?" And if they would ask that, then they would see that there is coercion here. They are not going to bust out their pimps.   Mark: No, they are scared to death. Tim: They are scared to death. Their pimps have been beating them for ten years, since they were ten years old. So, you have got to stop and ask the question. You need experts in the field - social workers, psychologists in the field - to be able to be there and take this victim aside and talk to them. Frankly, in my mind, every country, every jurisdiction - whether it is federal, state, whatever - they all need to have legislation that decriminalize prostitutes altogether, absolutely. Every prostitute, in my mind, should be treated like a victim. Mark: So, you are saying legalize prostitution? Tim: I am not saying... No, you don’t legalize prostitution at all. You legalize prostitution and that means that the pimps and the johns get away. Mark: Ah. Tim: You criminalize 100% for pimps, for johns. Mark: But you can’t criminalize the prostitutes... Tim: You don’t criminalize the prostitutes. Mark: I like that. Tim: Yeah, I mean, there is Norway and Sweden who have both adopted that, and it is very effective. What happens there, when you do that, is those countries and those cities stop becoming havens for sex, for paid sex. Because you are criminalizing the johns and the pimps, johns and pimps don’t want to work there. Mark: So what you’ll have are a few entrepreneurial women who are kind of like 'Ma and Pa' stores, but you wipe out the industry? Tim: Yeah. You would wipe out the industry because the pimps and johns can’t... They are scared to go there. Mark: Yeah. Tim: And this is a huge debate right now going on with the Amnesty International’s new policy this summer they came out with in August, I believe. They came out with the sex worker shield where they are basically wanting to decriminalize prostitution for everybody - pimps, johns, and what they call sex workers - and make it legal. The idea is bring it all out into the light, and then you can take care of the sex workers and treat them like legitimate workers. You know, it is all focused on helping the sex worker. That’s their choice - they want to be a prostitute, support them, help them. And to do that, you can’t criminalize the pimps who, in Amnesty International’s words... This is very controversial. I mean, this is Amnesty International who is supposed to be looking out for the victims. And they feel like sex workers - who they call sex workers, others might call prostitutes - have been victimized and demonized and not supported in their occupational endeavors. And the problem is, is by decriminalizing this - and I see this in my work - by decriminalizing the whole process so that the sex workers can be seen as legitimate workers, like any other professional in the world and be given all the benefits... Mark: I think the middle management and HR and marketing...they get all the departments wrapped around them: "Hey, go see the marketing guy!" Tim: That is right! Mark: "Make a brochure on this chick." Tim: That is the idea! That is the idea, like you are not letting them live their dream. Mark: Wow. Tim: And then the argument is this - let’s play with it a little bit because there is a strain of logic to it, right. So, the idea is you get them structured that way and then the government...because then my question is, "Ok, what about the kids?" Two million kids or more are being trafficked, sold. How do you protect them in this? Amnesty International says, "It is very easy!" All you do is you tell these jurisdictions and the police officers... These pimps get licensed; they are a licensed business. You go to them and they have to show that they are not selling minors: "We don’t sell minors. Here, look - it's all willing adults." Mark: "Look at our brochure!" Tim: "Look at our brochure! It is very clear." Mark: "No kids!" Tim: And I am thinking to myself, "Ok, you are talking about these underdeveloped countries that, at Operation Underground Railroad, we are filling up their gas tanks so they can drive from point A to point B. You are telling me that your police force is going to have enough resources, time, manpower, so forth, to go and regulate these legitimate brothels to make sure that there are no minors?!" Do you know how easy it is going to be if you are Fuego, right? Fuego, who is the guy… Mark: I remember Fuego. Tim: We met Fuego on the beaches of Colombia and... Mark: And you took his hat! Tim: I still have his hat. I still have his hat. Mark: That guy is such a douchebag. Tim: Can you imagine… Can you say douchebag on this show? Mark: Hey, if I put a little E next to the...we are now explicit. Tim: Ok. Mark: No, douchebag is not explicit. Tim: Is "Slave Stealer Radio" an R-rated show? Let’s just talk about this and figure that out. Mark: I think we are PG-13ish. Tim: I just want to know what I can get away with. Mark: In context, we’re probably considered like an X-rated show just given the general theme, but we don’t really get explicit yet until we get you on the wrong moment. Hopefully we edit that out. Tim: Ok! Mark: Yeah. Tim: So, Fuego... You imagine Fuego, right. How hard is it going to be for Fuego? This is Amnesty International’s plan - Fuego should be a legal vendor as long as they are adults. The kids will be safe because they are safe with Fuego, aren’t they? You spent time with Fuego. Would you trust a 12-year-old girl to Fuego? I mean... Mark: Friendly guy. Tim: Here is what is going to happen: he will line up his 18-year-olds and 20- year-olds, and he’ll say, "Here’s all I got!" And those cops are not going to go the two miles down the road into the little storage facility, right, or the tractor trailer with the ten 12-year-olds and the three or four 9-year-olds. Mark: And they are not going to check his phone to see... Tim: No! Mark: ...you know, all the 10-year-olds with pagers. Tim: Right! He will have those, he will sell those. They are premium! You are going to sell those for $1000; these 18-year-olds you are going to sell for $300. He is going to have those. The infrastructure to sell those little kids is now supported by the state. And he will be able to make money, he will be able to invest whatever he makes legitimately, he will pay his taxes and everything else. He will be a businessman! He is going to sell the premium because it is too easy and now you have just supported his infrastructure. How are you going to protect those kids? Amnesty International decided to ignore those kids. Those twelve kids in the back of the tractor trailer down the road - they have ignored them. And now, guess what? You have created an absolute sex haven. And let's say that they decriminalized it like this everywhere in Cartagena. Every gross tourist from America, Canada, and Germany, and everywhere else - they are going to go to Cartagena, they are going to enjoy the adult sex, and then they are going to make a deal with Fuego on the side and say, "Hey, where do I get the 11-year-olds?" "Well, you come to this other place down the road." And it is a booming business. I am absolutely just astonished and sickened that Amnesty International could be so incredibly short-sighted and idiotic that they don’t see that they are completely neglecting the children. They are creating safe havens. They are making it so easy for the johns and pimps to rape children. Mark: That is pretty inflammatory. Tim: It is inflammatory! Mark: You just called them idiotic. Tim: They are idiots! Mark: What if we need their help? Tim: Well, we won't need their help. Mark: Ok. Tim: But do you know who does need their help? Fuego needs their help, and apparently he is going to get it. Mark: So, an entire industry... You might shut down an entire industry. There might be jobless Fuegos all over Colombia, all over Mexico. Tim: How sad. Mark: Have you ever ordered the 'Sin City'? Tim: No. Mark: Smashburger. You go down, and it is kind of like In-N-Out burger. You can show up and there is the menu, right, there is a Smashburger menu (and they are not a sponsor of this show), but you can order the ‘Sin City’ which is not on the menu. And it is kind of a niche thing for people to go in and they give you the wink and they say, "I’ll take the Sin City." Tim: It is like In-N-Out burger, it is the same thing. They have their Animal Fries, Animal Burgers. Mark: Yeah, the Animal Style. Now, I see prostitution becoming like that. Tim: That is exactly right! Mark: Under the Amnesty plan. Tim: Absolutely! It is exactly what it is. Mark: I’ll take Sin City (wink, wink). Tim: It is exactly what it is. Mark: She is in the back alley. Tim: It is exactly what is going to happen. Mark: It is a brand extension. Tim: It is exactly what is going to happen. And we know this! I know this! I know these guys! I have negotiated with them undercover, I sit across the table from them. And if it was legal to sell, for him to sell adults - which it is not in Cartagena frankly, ok. But if it were, if we all follow Amnesty International, and if they make it legal, and I am sitting across from him... Think about this, just play it out in your head - I’ve been there a hundred times. "Hey Tim, come to my office with the sign that says, 'Beautiful women for sale,'" right, because this is a legal business. I walk in there... I mean, we have set him up, he is totally legitimate. And you don't think we are going to have that little 'Sin City menu' talk? Absolutely we are going to! Because he is going to make double or triple off this sick, horny American who is sitting across from him. Mark: Yeah. Tim: Right? It is so unbelievable! When I saw Amnesty International’s policy, I thought there is no way, there is no way they are going to vote. Sane minds will prevail here. And they didn't. Mark: Who voted for it? Tim: It is the board of Amnesty International. This is a powerful organization that has done good in the world - they are all about human rights. They have done good in the world to protect innocence. Mark: Well, traffickers are humans. They have the right to traffick. Tim: Traffickers have rights too, I guess. Mark: Apparently. So now... Tim: It is unbelievable.   Mark: So now, Amnesty International, for the uninitiated like me, Amnesty International now goes and lobbies the UN, they lobby Washington, they lobby... Tim: They lobby countries all over the earth. They will be going and saying, "You need to decriminalize prostitution!" And don’t get me wrong, I totally believe in decriminalizing prostitutes. They should all be treated as victims, absolutely, even if they are saying, "I’m here because I want to be - arrest me!" No, we are going to treat you like... We don’t know your story. I agree with that, that’s right. But what they do is, because the sex worker can’t provide her service if johns are scared to come buy them. So, who they are really protecting are the johns and the pimps. And they say that in their legislation, or in their proposed legislation. They say that... They don’t call them pimps, they are very careful with all the wording, but they call them 'security': 'security for the prostitutes'. Mark: They call them security? Tim: They need to have their infrastructure, they need to have their security, which means that there could be other people helping and facilitating in their business. So, it is unbelievable. Now, will there be a prostitute that would benefit from this? Will there will be a prostitute that would say, "I truly do want to be here"? Absolutely! I believe there are prostitutes who want to be there. And might they say, "We need this policy so that we can sell ourselves freely and be sex workers by choice," and all this, and this would help them. Yes, that would help them, but you have to weigh that against the twelve 12-year-olds who are sitting in the tractor trailer down the road from the legitimate brothel. Mark: Whom you have seen. Tim: I have seen them! They are everywhere! There are 2 million of them. And you have completely thrown them under the bus because you are so worried about the few prostitutes who want to be there, who love their job, and whatever. Mark: The company guys. Tim: I can’t say I am completely unsympathetic to that - maybe that is what their choice is and I am a libertarian in that way. I want people to be able to choose. But it is a balancing act and when you are choosing that over the children who will now be raped because you have provided the infrastructure for them to be raped, you are in the wrong. I mean, it is so clear that you are in the wrong. I know from our perspective, you know, we spend a lot time in the trenches and we see this. Perhaps the folks from the Amnesty haven’t. I have to assume they haven’t seen this, and see how easy they are making it now for children to be raped.

Tim Noxsinz aka Timitude is the creator of CreativeMondays.net  and co-host of the Middle of Nowhere Show. In this episode,  Tim talks about enabling others, seeking what you want, and reaching your potential. Here are three things you can learn from Tim: How to Empower Others Although Tim is a writer and co-host of a podcast show, he believes his greatest strength is enabling others. Through his work on Timitude, Creative Mondays and the Middle of Nowhere Show, he is able to give people a platform to express themselves in an empowering way. Here are Tim's four keys to empowering others: connecting, creativity, catalysts, and challenging. Connecting creates value through the connections you have. Creativity happens through his Creative Mondays platform. He is a catalyst of change through the Middle of Nowhere Show, and he challenges others through consulting. Stop Waiting for Good Things to Happen Tim believes people spend too much time waiting for good things to happen to them instead of seeking them out. If you wait for good things to happen to you, you could wait your entire life. That is why he likes to give people the belief that they can change the world. We often undervalue our ability to make a significant impact. If you truly want to make a difference, you need to believe in yourself first, then you must go out and seek it. You can achieve your goals if you are intentional about it. Stop playing in the small pond of life. Go out and make a big splash in the ocean. How to Reach Your Potential Everyone has the potential to achieve something great in life. We are more powerful than we believe. Don't let anyone tell you you are not good enough. Tim believes it starts with believing in yourself. In order to go from where you are to where you want to be, you must first embrace the man in the mirror. Then you must be willing to test and learn from your mistakes. Mistakes in life are inevitable. It's what you do after making those mistakes that really matters. Don't take failure as a reflection of who you are. They are a part of becoming a more complete person. If you are able to do these things, you can achieve your full potential. Read more shownotes from episode 37 with Tim Noxinsz

This week, we have a brief discussion about how third party ad networks affect performance on news sites before talking with Sophie Shepherd. Sophie is a Senior Designer at Ushahidi, a non-profit software company that develops free and open-source products for information collection, visualization, and interactive mapping. We discussed the challenges of designing for international users with minimal data speed, how Ushahidi brings data and information to regions with nearly no connection, designing with task completion in mind, and more. ##Show Links: Sophie Shepherd Follow Sophie on Twitter Ushahidi Lara Hogan - A List Apart - Showing Performance Global Mobile Book Eric Meyer Crisis Design Rust Belt Refresh ##Transcript Katie: Welcome. You're listening to Episode 8 of The Path to Performance, the podcast dedicated to everyone to make the web faster. I am your host, Katie Kovalcin. Tim: And I'm your other host, Tim Kadlec and yeah, you nailed it; this is Episode 8. Well done! Katie: I was like, oh yeah, I totally know which episode it is. Wait: no, I don't. This is Episode 8. Tim: I mean, it's understandable; the numbers are getting higher, it's getting harder and harder. Katie: Totally out of control it's on more than one hand now! Tim: Yeah, once you've thrown that second hand, things get really complicated. It gets worse when you have to start taking off the socks and using your toes as well! That's where I always get hung up! Katie: You can wear flip-flops and then you don't have to worry about it. Tim: True, true. Katie: How are you, Tim? Tim: I'm doing OK; I'm actually wearing flip-flops right now! Yeah, I am! Katie: It's warm in Wisconsin? Tim: It is warm, for once. Yeah, I'm doing good; enjoying my day. And you? Katie: I'm good as well. The sun is shining here, which is a very rare thing in Ohio this summer and I feel like I have been whining about it for so long but today, I'm not whining. Tim: That's good! That's good! I'm guessing, we could maybe one of these times maybe we'll have an episode where we just kind of whine all the way through, but otherwise I think people probably enjoy the non-whining better. Katie: We can just have a bummer episode! Tim: Yeah, just a downer of an episode where we just air all our grievances about everything… Katie: We just talk in emo voice, just like…mwww…yeah, the web does actually kinda suuuuck… Tim: Yeah, exactly! I think this goes over well, I think this is maybe like a special Christmas edition. Katie: That is a really good idea. Tim: Right in time for the holidays. Katie: Christmas Bummer Episode! Tim: This is brilliant. That has to happen; I'm writing this down. Anyway, but glad to hear you're doing good now on this totally not Christmas at all episode. That's good. Katie: Yeah, on this summer-sunshine flip-flop fun-time episode! Tim: Yay! Katie: So, on the note of cool things, there's this episode from the Washington Post where in kind of a similar fashion, I know we talked a couple of months ago about Vox sort of declaring performance bankruptcy, Washington Post kinda did the same thing and talked about in an article the other day and that was pretty cool. They mentioned it sort of being in response to the instant articles and talking about just ads on news sites generally kind of sucky for performance, but I really liked this quite that it ended on that we have very little control over ads that load late or slowly but we wanted to make the core use experience as solid as possible because that is what we have control over and that's kind of a cool way to think about performance, just focusing on making good the core part that you do have control over. Tim: Yeah, and I think that's just generally awesome advice for anybody, because the ad work stuff comes up a lot and you have very little control over those third party ad networks and unfortunately a lot of them are super-slow right now but also essential for business but I like that they made the clear distinction between their core experience and understanding that the ads is just something you're going to have to tack on afterwards but mitigate the issues as much as possible. I think that's just really solid advice for any publisher. Katie: Yeah, absolutely. It's a nice article, it's a quick read; I recommend giving that a little skim or browse. Tim: Definitely. And then of course, Lara Hogan, who has made a habit out of writing good things over and over and over again or providing good performance advice in general, she wrote a post for A List Apart about showing performance; basically getting into some of the things she talked about way back in Episode 1 with us and also in her book about the importance of making performance visual: going into the dashboards and things like that, that they have up at Etsy and making sure that people can actually see the difference in performance. Katie: Yeah, she tweeted a little quick video a while ago and it might actually be in that article, I haven't had a chance to read it yet; it's on my to-do list but she posted a video of their video systems and it's really cool, it's really awesome to see that. Did I tell you that Lara, she talks about donuts all the time and donuts being her reward for good performance, achievements, good things like that, and when I saw Lara in New York a couple weeks ago, she took me to The Donut Spot that's in her neighborhood and I was so excited! Tim: Yeah, you told me. She's never taken me to The Donut Spot. I'm a little disappointed. I'm excited for you though: that sounds really cool. That's kind of… Katie: You know what? It was a really good donut because she says she's not a fan of the hipster donuts with a bunch of stupid toppings like cereal and candy bars and crap. Tim: Like the voodoo donuts thing in Portland? Katie: Yeah. These are just some straight-up home-town donuts in Brooklyn; I guess not really home-town but they were good! Tim: That's good. This is just like plain glazed? I want to know how far down the rabbit hole you went. Katie: We got banana…no, not banana: they were like custard-filled ones with the chocolate icing. I'm not a donut expert but those good ones! Tim: Gotcha, OK. That's a safe choice. Katie: Not the white sugary whipped cream-filled, the kind of yellowy-custard cream-filled ones; those are good ones. I don't know the distinction: is one cream and one custard? Is one icing and one cream? I don't know. Tim: I think it's usually like an icing and cream thing. Depending on where you go, it's almost like pure frosting is what it tastes like you're eating… Katie: Yeah, like you bite in and you're just like, oh my… Tim: Yeah, it's like there's frosting on the outside of the donut and frosting shoved down the inside as well and you just feel the cavities forming as you're eating them. It's great. It's a really good experience. But that's good. No, I did not…you did tell me this and that's very awesome, very cool. It's kinda like… Katie: Sorry; I'm obviously still thinking about that. Tim: I don't blame you. Katie: It was an experience. But, back to today's episode! We are talking to Sophie Shepherd and the big reason we wanted to get Sophie on here is not only because she's an awesome designer but because she has experience with working on products that are primarily used in developing countries that typically have the less than ideal device scenarios that we kind of always talk about in theory but she has some really great insight on talking a bout it in practice and actually designing for those devices and scenarios so it's going to be really interesting. Tim: Yeah, it'll be a nice fresh take, a different perspective than we usually get. Very cool. Katie: Cool. Well, let's go hear from Sophie. Katie: And we're back with Sophie Shepherd from Ushahidi. Sophie; can you tell us a little bit about Ushahidi and what exactly that is? Sophie: Sure. So, the what exactly it is, it's a Swahili word that means "Testimony". A lot of people are like, "Usha-what?" so it's not English so don't feel bad if you can't say it. And the company was founded in 2008 in Kenya so in 2008 what was happening in Kenya. there was an election that was fairly corrupt and there was quite a bit of violence broke out and some bloggers who were in Kenya and living in Kenya realized that they needed to do something to help out as well as just writing about what was happening, so they made a product in which people could submit reports of different places where the election was happening, different polling stations and this way they could say, there's been violence here, someone was killed here or this is a safe place where you can go to vote, or there's fraud happening. And what Ushahidi does is it takes all of these different reports and collects them into one place and provides a list and a map for them. So that's how it was founded; it's now a number of products but the name of our main platform is still Ushahidi and the purpose of it is still too collect data, crowd-source data. It's oftentimes gets mapped but isn't necessarily, we're re-doing the platform right now so that it's not only map data; it can really be anything that users submit. Katie: Awesome. So, spoiler alert, I know Sophie really well so I know the details of what she does and what really struck me and why I wanted to get her on the podcast so bad is because you deal a lot with users that are in places that have really poor connectivity and the products that you're designing are really crucial information that they need to get to. Can you talk a little bit about all of that and the challenges that you face when designing for that? Sophie: Sure. So, I think something that's really interesting is that it's not only poor connectivity but the kind of contexts in which people are using our products are unique. Not exclusively, but oftentimes they're used in crisis situations, so people don't have a whole lot of time. A lot of the time, the power could be down or internet could be down, so it's not only we have to think about connectivity but also ways that people are submitting information. This has been the first project I've worked on where it's not just, when we talk about performance, it's not just people needing to load something fast but it's about access and accessibility so, built into our product is people can anonymously text stuff in and that'll become a part of our system so it's really thinking about this whole ecosystem of access and ways of submitting information rather than just a website. Katie: Can you talk a little bit about what that means exactly, more than just a website? How else are you working around those connectivity and accessibility issues? Sophie: Yes, well, Ushahidi as a whole, not only with our platform but we have a lot of other companies that have spun out from the product itself, so there's a company Brick which is really, really awesome. It was founded by someone who was also a founder in Ushahidi and they make wifi devices that are super-rugged; they work off 3G connections so you can take those anywhere. We were in Kenya and they have all these attachments so it can be solar-powered wifi, so we had a group meeting in Kenya and we were all accessing the internet in the middle of nowhere on a beach from this device we had. So, it's thinking more about getting people information. Similarly we do a lot with SMS so if someone only has a phone they can text in a report or receive a response saying, OK, this has been confirmed, through their phone. Tim: This is fascinating stuff. I always think it's very interesting to hear the perspective outside of what we're used to in the little bubble that we get to live in here in the United States tech industry. This is taking everything in terms of the importance of building something that is going to work on different devices and the importance of building something that's going to perform well and this is really scaling up the importance of doing that, the vitality of doing that from just business metrics to, like you're saying, people's lives at stake in some of these cases. I'm curious; you mentioned being in Kenya and using those devices to get access. You can't obviously develop all the time in Kenya, so how are you finding ways to get that experience here, when you're building stuff from the United States so that you're feeling what it's going to be like on those, a 2G or a 3G connection or whatever it happens to be? Sophie: It's definitely a challenge for me because not only am I working every day on a really good connection but I've never really not had that; maybe five years ago my connection was not as good as it was now but I think I've always been as far as connection speeds in the one per cent, but we have a really great user advocacy team at Ushahidi so this is not only thinking about performance and website metrics, but we have a whole team that is dedicated to making sure that our users are satisfied, listening to what their needs are and responding in that way and also helping them, because this is a product that then gets extended and they can download it and set up their own deployments to use the product so we have a team that works really closely with people who are actually using it, which is terrific because we get a lot of feedback through that. Tim: I was going to say, are some of the team members in Kenya? Sophie: Uh-huh. Yeah, we have one person in Kenya, one person in Canada and then we have as part of, we have a specific user testing wing that's in Kenya but what they do is, since they are so in touch with people who use this stuff all over the world, they're good at being able to not only test it in Kenya but test it elsewhere and talk to…we have a large group using this stuff in Nepal right now because of the earthquake so they're in touch with them, checking that everything's working OK, getting any feedback from them. Katie: Do you tend to look at what specific devices the majority of users in these areas are using and start building and testing there or how does that work out? What's the size of an iPhone, that tends to be our default? What devices are you really thinking about in those areas? Sophie: It's interesting because right now, we are in the midst of re-building this product and so a lot of the people out there who are using it right now are using Version 2 which is the older version and at this point I don't even know how many years old it is but it's fairly outdated. It still works really well but it's not responsive; it's hard, we've noticed that quite a lot of people are using it on a desktop but that's only because it doesn't work very well on a phone so it'll be really interesting, we're launching the new one which is fully responsive and a lot more modern in this way to see how people end up using it. But it's tough because we can't say, iPhone users use this because it's used really everywhere in the world so maybe if it's used in the US it is going to be on an iPhone more, whereas elsewhere, it's Android but we try to cast a really wide net so there's an Android app that will be used for collecting information, you can submit by SMS. The new version's going to be totally responsive so what we try to do is not really focus on one but make sure that everyone can use it. Katie: So, you've been working on a responsive re-design and everything we've talked about has been the poor connectivity and all of that. How has performance played into those decisions when building this site or the product again for this new version? Sophie: It's a continuous consideration and process of checks and balances. One thing is that, thinking about images: part of this new system is we're able to have people submit images as part of their reports so that's something that we still have not quite figured out how we should work with how to then deliver those back to people and also thinking about different JavaScript libraries that we're using. It's a constant balance, so I think we're still figuring it out. We've done quite a bit of user-testing but more UX user-testing but the application itself is not totally done, it hasn't been built yet, so I think that's to come in terms of optimizing how it's going to work exactly. But from the design and front-end, we've definitely been keeping things really light and really the only question that we have is how we're going to treat images. Tim: Is it primarily a matter of using them or not using them or is it a degree of compression in terms of getting them to a point where maybe they're a little pixilated and ugly but they're balanced: the trade-off is that they're going to perform well on those types of networks? What are you battling with, with the images? Sophie: Well, I think basically every single image that is ever going to be on the site is going to be submitted by a user, so we don't know exactly the sizes of images that are going to come in and then at what point we are then going to compress them or shrink them and how we're going to do that and then how they're going to then be delivered back out. Yeah. Tim: So it's getting a system in place for all the user-generated content? Sophie: Exactly, yes. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: So, you talk a lot about style guides and patter libraries and Sophie I know that's how you like to design and work. What is that process looking like? Do you do testing as you go on designs and see how performing it is or how fast it's loading under those different circumstances? Can you just talk a little bit about your design thinking? Sophie: Yeah. What we have been doing is we did all the UX fairly separately, thinking about just user flows and how things were going to be laid out and how things should work and then we did some visual design and then we started combining these by building the pattern library, so we took out patterns from visual design and eventually we've just started building templates and designing in the browser because we have enough of these patterns to build upon and it's been really great; this is the first time that I've worked in this way and what I really love about it is that each of our patterns and components basically stand on their own so it's really easy to look at them and understand exactly where certain weights are coming from. By designing modularly, we can pull those out rather than seeing a page as a whole and not really understand what's causing what. Tim: In a prior episode, we were talking to Jeff Lembeck of Filament Group and he mentioned what he called the "Jank Tank" which is this big box of basically ugly, horrible, slow devices. Considering how wide the net you're spreading, do you have anything similar? Is there a Ushahidi Jank Tank that you guys go to? Sophie: There isn't, but I love that idea. Tim: Yeah, I think we were fans of that too. Sophie: Is it like…what does he mean exactly? Tim: The idea was having… Sophie; …lowest common denominator kind of devices? Time: Yeah, basically grabbing cheap devices or old devices and firing those up: things that are going to be maybe a few years old and are probably going to be a huge challenge to make things feel fluid and work well on those and you have those handy to test them out and see what honestly might be a more typical user would experience than the high end stuff. Sophie: Yeah, we don't have that here in the States; I feel bad calling it a Jank Tank because that's negative-sounding, but in the office in Kenya, they have…they all work in a building and there's quite a few tech companies that work in there and they have something like a Mobile Device Lab and I think it was sponsored by a mobile company there but I was there earlier in the year and it kind of blew my mind; I put a picture of it on Twitter that we can refer to in the Speaker Notes. But that was all of these phones that were phones that I hadn't even necessarily seen, that they don't sell in the States, and they're all used for testing so at some point probably now that I'm talking about it, I'm realizing we should do it sooner rather than later, they have a whole testing lab there that we can test this product on. Tim: Nice. A mobile device lab does admittedly sound a little bit more ??? serious. Katie: Everything that you're saying sounds like, just tying in that accessibility and performance are going hand in hand and it sounds like you've just learned a great deal of empathy in your time there. Is that true and has that influenced your design? Sophie: Yeah, definitely. I think something that has really changed in my mind is thinking about when doing the design, what actions are people going to want to take, so I think that goes with performance too: if we can only load this one button that says "submit a report" and skip all of the images then that's the most important thing, so, really thinking about where to guide people and what the most important and crucial actions are before loading and everything else, so as a designer that's been definitely something that, previously I was doing client work and it was like we had this long list of requirements that we had to fit in and now it's kind of re-assessing and re-prioritizing what requirements actually are and having different levels of this is the one thing they need to really use this app and then here's all of this other helpful stuff that could be called crucial but isn't actually life or death crucial. Katie: That's really interesting. Do you think that there's any way that, for those of us still working on client projects, to have those conversations with the client to try to be like, "no, really, but the marketing video isn't truly required"; exercises in priority and stuff: do you have any tips for paring down those requirements? Sophie: I think it's tough if your talking to a marketing person because they'd be like, "no, literally I'm going to die if I don't get this on there." Katie: And you're like, "no, literally, people are on our products like…" Sophie: Yeah. I think any time it's easier to say, "does this go above this in the priority list" people are willing to answer that question rather than either or. So, in general, communicating and deciding things I would recommend ordering rather than choosing people to sacrifice things. Tim: And it seems like that's clarified too in, I would guess one of the reasons why it works so well where you are is because that task, if you're looking at what the most important thing for the user to do is, it's so very clear and so very critical whereas on maybe on a more traditional thing where you're working with marketers or whatever, they may not have as clear a sense of, what is the ultimate purpose of this site? And then it becomes a lot harder to do the prioritization without that. Sophie: Yeah; it's funny because we're in the process right now of re-designing the company site as well as re-designing the product itself and it shouldn't be, because there's no life or death, but it's so much more complicated to prioritize stuff on the company site because there's so many different types of audiences and services that it needs to provide whereas on the app itself, it's pretty clear to say, what's the most important action for someone to take. Tim: Within the new site, do you still have to take into consideration a lot of the same sort of constraints in terms of the different devices and connectivity because that's who your audience is that you're marketing to, or are you marketing to a different group through the site? Sophie: Yeah, the site will be, well that's up for debate; that's I think what we're still trying to figure out. I think by default it's a good idea to not ever say, "oh well only people in the States with nice phones are going to look at this" just because that's a dangerous attitude to have, but it's possibly less of priority for the site itself. Tim: So, going back to prioritizing performance within the actual apps and stuff that you're doing: did you have set targets that you were looking at when you were working V3 of this? Were there hard-set goals; we are not going to go over this amount of weight or we are not going to take longer than this for the map of data to appear or anything like that? Sophie: Yeah, so we set a performance budget and we've set a few of them; we set one for the front-end so what we've done is build this pattern library and we have all of our, we're calling them "weight-outs" which are basically our different views within the app itself. So we had an initial goal for that, that we've met and then we set a separate one for the build itself and that's still in process, so hopefully we can get around that target. I like this too because instead of having one end-goal we can really check as we go. Tim: Yeah, it's nice to have it broken down like that. Can we ask what the targets are, just out of curiosity? Sophie: I can look them up but I don't know them right now. Tim: That's fine. Just curious. Was it in terms of the weight or is it a different sort of, more like an experience-focused metric or anything like that, that you're targeting? Sophie: Yeah, we did a weight and a load time. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: It sounds like you've worked in some of the perceived performance thinking too when you're saying, what's the critical information to load first. Sophie: Yeah, for me as a designer, that's definitely something that I can relate to more and I think in some ways it's possibly more important. I think they work as a team but… Tim: I think it is. And I think that's…I think or I hope that that's what, within the performance community, the people who really that's what they do focus on, I think that that's where everything is starting to, we're starting to wake up to that and certainly to shift towards understanding that it really is about the experience and making sure that the critical things are coming in, whatever the top task, whatever the most important features are on the page or coming in and measuring those sorts of things, instead of this blind race to the finish that we've kind of had in the past. Sophie: Yeah. I'm curious to see how that thinking changes because I love the idea of a performance budget but I think sometimes it can be a little limiting and you wouldn't want to sacrifice certain things just to fit into the performance budget. Not limiting, but I think it's very concrete whereas it should be a fairly fluid depending on context of the site itself. Tim: Sure, yeah, it doesn't dictate what goes on; it's another consideration or it's part of another piece in the puzzle. Sophie: Right. At the same time, it's the easiest way to communicate goals. Tim: True. It's hard to without it having a hard set thing, it's very hard, yeah. Sophie: Yeah, until you have the design done, you can't say, OK, our goal is that this is going to load and then this is going to load this much later. It helps to have a number that everyone can refer back to. Katie: So, when you say for everyone to communicate, who is that? Is that between you and the developers? Is this something that your leadership is really that's close to their heart as well? Sophie: Yeah, I think when I said that it was more coming from my experience with client work, where you're using this number as a kind of tactic to force a client to decide on certain things. For us, since we're all working internally, I think definitely any…basically, everyone wants to see it be as fast as it possibly can, so we're all working towards the same thing. Katie: Is there ever a push-back to even like, "OK, now that we've hit that, let's try another goal that's even faster"? Sophie: Not yet, because we haven't launched it, but I wouldn't be surprised if we launch it and get certain feedback that it wasn't loading or it wasn't working quite right on something. I'm really curious to see once it's out there and people are using it, how people respond. Katie: Yeah, I'm really curious to see what metrics you find out from that. Tim: Did you make a distinction…there's the cutting the mustard approach that the BBC popularized which is the core experience goes to maybe older, less capable browsers/devices and the enhanced experience goes to everybody else. One of the things that that fails at, or that doesn't take into consideration which seems like it would be really important for Ushahidi is the situation where you have somebody is on a very nice device but the connectivity is really awful. Did you have to make any distinction between different experiences or do you just have one experience and that experience itself is extremely lightweight, no matter what the scenario is? Was that enough for you to accomplish or you needed to do? Sophie: Yeah, that's funny; we had our company retreat in Kenya so it was I think maybe about half, maybe a little less of our company is in the US so we all went there with our snazzy iPhones and still couldn't connect to anything and it really, I think in terms of empathy, made us realize: oh, wait a second. But in terms of yeah, I think we're just going to try to make it fast for everyone. We don't have a whole lot of enhancements for people on quicker systems yet. Katie: When you were in Kenya, were there any things that were especially awful to try to load, like you're used to just being part of your everyday life? I'm just curious. Sophie: I remember reading Twitter, on the Twitter app and everything loaded except for the pictures and it made you realize just how often people supplement their tweets with pictures; I remember getting really frustrated about it. Katie: That's interesting. Sophie: But I didn't even really try to do a lot of stuff because it really didn't look very well. Same thing on Instagram; it's like sometimes this progressive loading thing; I would rather it not load at all than, oh, I see all of these people posted great pictures that I can't look at. I'd rather not know than… Katie: Or like the tweets having fomo, oh, you had a joke and I can't see the punch-line! Sophie: Exactly! Katie: That's really interesting because when we're just designing here in a bubble it's like, "well I think that would be fine for you to just know that it's there but not see it" but then when you're actually using it, you're like: no, this sucks. Sophie: Yeah, it's like actively frustrating. Tim: How often do you get to Kenya? Sophie: I'm new to the company; I've only been here since the beginning of the year but I think they do a retreat every year but not necessarily always in Kenya; I think every other year it's in Kenya. And I think other people on the team, it depends, we'll do these what we call Hit Team Meetings because everyone is remote and then mini-teams will get together and all work together for a week so those have been all over the place since people live on opposite ends of the world, depending on who's meeting they usually choose a place that is fairly central for everyone to get to. Katie: We'll start to have a list of sites, Sophie, how much is this really crappy, wherever you end up going… Sophie: How long does this take? Katie: Look it up and tell me how much it sucks. Sophie: It is cool to have people on the team everywhere for that reason. Tim: Sure, I bet that gives you a really nice overall picture of a whole bunch of different landscapes from a technical perspective. Sophie: Yeah. Katie: I know, I didn't prepare a list of questions like I should have! Tim: It's all right, I'm actually having a lot of fun just going off the cuff on this, knowing almost nothing. I did a little bit of research and I had heard of Ushahidi from this big fat book about mobile on a global scale that was put out a couple of years ago. Sophie: That's cool. What was that book? Tim: It's called Global Mobile. It's six hundred pages and each chapter is written by a different author on a different topic and I think Ushahidi came up twice… Sophie: Oh, that's awesome. Tim: …in the book. Sophie: Do you know what they referenced or what it was…. Tim: One was just talking about how…I don't remember one of the references in much detail. The other one I know that they were talking about a variety of different mobile technological solutions that were out there; I think they were focused primarily on Africa in that chapter or similar areas and they were talking about the different services that are making use of technologies that we might consider a little bit more simple, but they're doing really powerful things with it and so I think that they were focused on the SMS aspect, if I remember right. Sophie: Yeah, it's been definitely challenging, but also interesting that designing a product that is not used for one specific thing; it's very much user-focused and people will download it and decide how they use it, so it's been a challenge to design for that and to keep it well designed but also really, really flexible. Tim: Which is why I guess it's so important I guess that you are getting a chance to experience at least a little bit every once in a while because everybody talks about front-end design perspective, from a development perspective, how important it is to put yourself in your user's shoes and when you're talking about what Ushahidi is dealing with, and it's not just the devices or the browser or the connections: it's the situations; it's just so hard. It's so hard to put yourself in those sorts of shoes and understand what it must feel like to use the application or the site in those sorts of scenarios; that's such a huge challenge. Sophie: Yeah, there's no way that, well it sounds selfish saying it, but hopefully there's no way I would ever actually be able to experience that but I think that is why we have such a strong and valuable user advocacy team so that they can really communicate with them when people are in those situations and as they're using it in those situations. Tim: Do you get feedback from the users that are pertaining directly to things like how quickly they're able to report something or how quickly they're able to get access to the data that's been reported, in terms of it takes too long sort of a thing, not just a usability thing but from a performance perspective? Sophie: We haven't. Or not that I know of. Tim: Well, maybe that means you're doing an awesome job! Sophie: We'll see. It's also tough because the new version is yet to be used on a wide…by a lot of people, so we'll see, but it is great because we have the product is also open source, so we have a lot of community submissions and ideas so this is again the first time I've worked on something like that where I'll just be in my normal task list that we use internally as a team and I will get one from…I'm in Katmandu and this thing is not working; can you add this? So it is really cool to see that people care about improving the product. Tim: That's awesome. Katie: Is there anything that you've learned from going through this process and being hit with all of these pretty heavy design constraints that are just, oh man, there's no way I can ignore that. Has that changed your view on design, even outside of this product in particular? Sophie: I think that this has, compared to how I used to design, I'm keeping things a lot more simple, not even necessarily visually; visually as well but also just in how they work and not trying to dictate how something should work. Oftentimes we'll, with other people in my design team or sometimes with our developers, we'll discuss how something, spend hours doing flows and then just realizing, why don't we just let people do what they want to do and take a step back and not define so much how this should be used, so I think just the fact that so many different people are using it for different ways, I've found that it's often best to leave things open and then to not over-complicate them. Katie: Is that kind of freeing? Sophie: Errr….it's been difficult because I'm so used to not being like that. But yeah, kind of. For me as a designer it's been kind of hard to let go of control. Katie: Yeah, that's usually I think our downfall as designers is wanting to control everything and that's kind of a big part about embracing performance too: it just sounds boring to design for performance, even though it's not and it's just like anything else. Sophie: Yeah, I think that I talked to ??? about this a long, long time ago and I remember it's stuck with me in terms of performance but also it's kind of user advocacy side of design, which is that it's not in conflict with the design; you shouldn't think of performance as taking away from visual design but it's just a piece of design so it's just another aspect of UX and if it loads faster, then that'll make the design better. Katie; It means you did your job well! Sophie. Yeah, exactly. Tim: At the end of the day it's about, especially in your case, but at the end of the day it's really about how quickly can the people using the site or the application get the task done that they came to the site to do and so that makes performance comes right up front and center along with any other bit of the process really, information architecture, clear content structure and good visual design; it all contributes. Sophie: That's what design is, right? Getting people to be able to do what they want as easily as possible. Katie: Is this something that you were thinking about before having these experiences in these other parts of the world, or was that the eye-opener of, oh-whoa, my designs should encapsulate this? Sophie: Yeah, I think it's always something theoretically that I could be like, your designs have to load really fast, of course, but selfishly I've always wanted them to look really cool or try out some latest thing that's trending on the web. So I think it's helped me step out and realize I'm not designing this for me. If I want to try something, I can just do it on my own site. Katie: So, I'm wondering if that's maybe the first step for designers that are not wanting to think about it… Sophie: Make them design something for someone in crisis. Katie: Yeah! Sophie: At an agency, every junior designer has to design for… Tim: Oh man! Sophie: …life or death situations. Katie: It's part of the interview process, you need to whiteboard a crisis design. Sophie: Yeah! Tim: Talk about no pressure right off the gate, that's what you're dealing with! Sophie: Have either of you seen Eric Meyer's presentation? Tim: I have not, but I've heard it's excellent. Sophie: I really want to. Katie: I want to see it as well. Sophie: It sounds really… Katie: Everything you are talking about is making we think of that. Sophie: I would really, really love to hear, I don't know if he would…he could be a good guest on the podcast just to talk about his experience. Tim: Yeah, I'd love to talk to Eric. I've heard the presentation is just fantastic but I haven't had a chance to catch it live. I don't know if it's recorded or not anywhere but if so, I haven't seen it. Katie; I think if any of you want come hang out in Ohio, I believe I would have to double-check, but I think he's giving that Rustbelt Refresh in Cleveland in September. Tim: I do like that conference. I did that last year, it's a lot of fun. Katie: So, you want to come hang out in Ohio and see it? Tim: Sunny Cleveland! Katie: Where the lake caught on fire! Sophie: Oh my God! Tim: I don't think I heard this. Katie; I think it was before I ever lived in Ohio, ten or so years ago. It may have been the river, it may have been the lake, I can't remember. One of them was so polluted that it caught on fire at some point. (45:11) Tim: That sounds a lovely! Sophie: That's terrifying! Tim: My only knowledge of Cleveland, which I think is probably upsetting and insulting to all people who live in Cleveland… Katie: Drew Carey Tim: Yep. So, I apologize for that! Sophie: I've been to Cleveland; I spent two weeks in Cleveland. Katie: What? Sophie: I was going through, you know, being young and wanting to work for Obama during the election but even then, I don't know what's in Cleveland, even after spending time there. Katie: I have been to Cleveland twice and I don't know. I live two hours from it; I couldn't tell you what's in Cleveland. Sophie: Really cheap houses if I remember; lots of empty, cheap houses! Katie: One time I tried out to be on The Price is Right this is when Drew Carey was the host and because I am really bad at being like, wooow, cookie-crazy person to be on The Price is Right, they interview every person that goes through the process and like, "why should we pick you?" and my only response was just like, "I'm from Ohio. Just like Drew. Cleveland Rocks, right?" Sophie: Certainly good for TV. Katie: Yeah, well, we'll talk about Ohio. Obviously I did not make it! Tim: That's sad! Sophie: There's still hope; you could try again. Tim: Don't give up on that. Katie: No, that was actually…. Sophie: Don't give up on your dreams. Tim: No, you've got to follow through. Katie: That was horrific; you're just like cattle being herded for six hours through this line as they interview every single person that goes in the thing, so if you're ever in LA and thinking, it would be fun to go on The Price is Right: it's not. Sophie: Think again! Katie: Sophie, you never did that when you lived there? Sophie: A lot of people I knew did. Katie: Did anyone ever get picked? Sophie: They did it…I grew up in LA and they filmed Jeopardy I think right next to my High School and they would do it as a fundraising thing where you would…they'd get a group things of tickets to Jeopardy and then the cheerleading squad or whoever would try to sell them individually. Katie: Whoa! Sophie: That's the closest I've gotten. Katie: Growing up in LA sounds wildly different from anywhere else! Was it? Sophie: We didn't have any lakes that lit on fire! Katie: Wasn't your High School the one from Grease? Sophie: Yep! Katie: Oh man. Sophie: And Party of Five. Is that what that show was called? Katie: Yeah. Tim: That's kinda cool. Katie: I'm more interested in Rydell High though. Sophie: I think they filmed it in partially different schools but the stadium was our stadium. Katie: The track where Danny's trying to be a jock and running around? Sophie: Yeah, yeah. Katie: Aw man, that's the worst part when Danny's trying to be a jock! Sophie: Wonder Years. Wonder Years, that's the block I grew up on. Katie: Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: Dang, you have Wonder Years, Alison has Dawson's Creek. Sophie: Dawson's Creek. Way before my time. Katie: I want to grow up on a teen drama! Sophie: The Yellow Brick Road was also the street, from the Wizard of Oz. Tim: Where was the Yellow Brick Road? Sophie: Before the houses were built, they filmed it on the street that my house was on. Tim: What? Sophie: And then years later, they had a reunion for all of the oompa-loompas that I accidentally walked on and I was sort of….what? Katie: Were they dressed up? Sophie: No. Tim: Wait, wait, wait…you just said oompa-loompas, but isn't that…that's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, right? Sophie: Not oompa-loompas. Munchkins! The Munchkins! Tim: I was like, wait a minute… Katie: Glad you got that 'cos I didn't! Sophie: I didn't either, I was like, this sounds right. Tim: Yeah, OK, I just wanted to clarify which movie it was. Sophie: Can we cut this out? We're going to get complaints from Little People of America organization. Tim: Yeah, that's fine. Actually we could use a few complaints. We haven't got many or any yet. Katie: Thanks for bringing it up. Now we're going to….well, if you're looking for feedback, let me tell you...you can lay off the chit-chat. Tim: We've gotten plenty, plenty of negative feedback and complaints so please don't bother sending those emails or letters. There, that should… Katie: I'm going to write you a strongly worded letter about your podcast! Tim: It happens. Sophie: This really went off the rails! Tim: It did, but you know what? That's cool. That's all right. I feel like… (50:03) Katie: It was getting really heavy, so you know we to lighten it up. Tim: It was, we had to lighten it up and I feel like it's kind of weird that we had gone this far without talking about Drew Carey so, you know, however many episodes we're into this and Drew Carey had never come up; seems wrong. Katie: Really? Sophie: Give us some Drew Carey facts, Katie! Katie: Actually, well I don't know any Drew Carey facts but I'm sure Tim has lots because that seems like that's your era of TV. Tim: I'm not that old, all right? Katie: Yeah, but Everybody Loves Raymond, you'll never… Tim: Yeah, I actually had…. Sophie: Are you Everybody? Tim: No, no. Am I? Sophie: Do you love Raymond? Tim: I do love Raymond; I do. It was a good show, all right? It was a good show. Under-appreciated by the current generation! Sophie: It was the most popular show ever at the time. Tim: It was really popular; really popular. Sophie: Did you just watch it on multiple TVs over and over again to up the ratings? Tim: Errr…. Katie: He had it going on every TV in the house, the whole day and night! Sophie: The syndication too so they're getting those checks, all from Tim! Katie: Tim loves Raymond! Sophie: New TV show! Tim: All right, all right; neither one of you are ever invited back on this podcast; even you, Katie. That's it, that's the end of it. I'm going to go start my own podcast where we're going to talk about Everybody Loves Raymond and The Drew Carey Show and things like that. Katie: Indiana Jones Tim: Indiana Jones, yep. This really did get off the rails. My gosh! Sophie: Yeah, feel weird going back to talking about crisis. Tim: So, well, you know, maybe we don't, there was a lot of really good, like Katie said, it was getting really serious and really awesome discussion, I think, around performance and it was really cool to hear somebody who is coming at it from that global perspective which, it's just not something that we commonly think about a lot, for most of us aren't dealing with on a day to day basis, so it's really interesting to have somebody come in and burst the bubble a little bit and give us a broader perspective. Katie: Yeah, it's great because I think like you said, Sophie, earlier: in theory everybody's like, it's nice and stuff and obviously we talk a lot about performance and everything and it's one of those things that I think everybody is like, yeah, yeah, in theory yeah, we want it to be fast because we don't want to be shamed by Twitter, but… Sophie: Other web designers! Katie: Yeah, basically. So it's great for you to come in here and give us the perspective of what that actually means and hopefully shed some light on that empathy. Sophie: Yeah, thank you for having me. Katie: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Tim: Going forward, it anybody wants to follow along and hear more about what Ushahidi's doing or about what you're doing, how do they do that? Sophie: For Ushahidi, I would recommend following Ushahidi on Twitter, ushahidi.com for a lot of information about all their different products and blogposts and then for me, my website is sophieshepherd.com Tim: Very cool. Katie: What about any social media that you may have because, I might be biased, but I think Sophie you have a pretty good account that's pretty funny! Sophie: My Twitter unfortunately is sophshepherd, because there's a British teenager named Sophie Shepherd who took that from me. So, don't follow her unless you want to hear a lot of complaining about tests and boyfriends. Katie: Do you follow her? Sophie: Occasionally! Then I get too mad about it and then I think, what if they think it's me? Katie: Is she also blonde and kind of looks like you? Sophie: Yeah, I've sent her a message; she does kind of. I sent her a message on Facebook once and she went, what are you freak? And then that was it. Katie; Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: She called you a freak? Sophie: Yeah. I'll put a screenshot in our speaker notes! Katie: OK, well follow the real Sophie Shepherd then. Sophie: Yep. Tim: Well, thank you and we'll definitely have to have you on again to discuss because I feel like there's a lot more we could get into in terms of Drew Carey and Ray Romano, so in a future episode. Katie: You can do that on your separate…Everyone Loves Ray. Tim: And Tim Loves Raymond. Yeah, that's good. It'll be the initial episode. Sophie:: Tim and Ray. All right. Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thanks; bye. Katie: Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Path to Performance podcast. You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes or on our site pathtoperf.com; you can also follow along on Twitter @pathtoperf. We'd love to hear what you thought so feel free to drop us a note on Twitter or leave a raving and overly kind review on iTunes. We like to read those. And if you'd like to talk about being a guest or sponsoring a future episode, feel free to email us at hello@pathtoperf.com

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