Podcast appearances and mentions of Arnold Mindell

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click here to read the transcript in English >>> intro Welkom in een nieuwe aflevering van onze podcast Let's Talk About Work! Vandaag gaan we in gesprek met een inspirerende gast die dagelijks werkt aan het creëren van meer verbinding en wijsheid binnen groepen. Bart Wuyts ontvangt Fanny Matheusen, transformatiecoach en Deep Democracy pionier in België. Het is een gesprek over meerstemmigheid, over hoe we in een maatschappij in transitie alle stemmen nodig hebben en een volwaardige plaats kunnen geven om zo te komen tot meer collectieve wijsheid. Het is een gesprek op voeten over nieuw leiderschap en nieuwe gespreksrituelen, over wakker zijn, durven te zeggen wat gezegd moet worden en over mededogen. Fanny's inzichten laten niemand onberoerd.   Beste luisteraar, wij hebben vandaag voor de micro van onze podcast Fanny Matheusen. Welkom Fanny. Ik lees dat jij creative director, inspirational speaker en founder of oprichter van HUMMUS bent. Hummus, dat vind ik heel lekker, maar dit is een andere HUMMUS denk ik hier. Ja en toch ook wel de hummus die je lekker vindt in die zin dat we een woord hebben gekozen dat voor ons een stukje symboliseert wat we doen, namelijk. Hummus, is een internationaal gerecht dat iedereen kent, maar dat iedereen ook op zijn eigen manier maakt. En we denken dat de unieke mix die mensen samen kunnen maken, dat daar heel veel wijsheid uit kan ontstaan. Heel veel schoonheid, heel veel lekkers. Ja, dat doet me denken aan Blenders. Onze merknaam. Dat vanuit hetzelfde idee ooit opgezet is. Ja, mooi. En licht eens even toe, wat doe jij of doet HUMMUS? Ik ben eigenlijk al dertig jaar gefascineerd door groepen en in dat verhaal van groepen altijd gefascineerd geweest door de rol van verschil daarin. En een aantal jaar geleden ben ik de methode Deep Democracy tegengekomen en dat was voor mij echt zo wel een revelatie. Ik dacht ah ja, de dingen die ik eigenlijk al jaren doe en aan het experimenteren ben, dat heeft een naam. En toen ontdekte ik ook dat dat in België eigenlijk nog heel weinig gekend was. Dus ik voelde een beetje mijn pioniers roeping. Ik heb dat wel meer soms, dat ik zo wat pionier in dingen naar boven komen en dan ben ik vrij snel begonnen om daarin opleidingen te voorzien in België. En dan heb ik mijn beste studenten, dat is altijd een luxe, mee kunnen nemen op mijn pad. En dan hebben we samen eigenlijk een collectief opgericht, HUMMUS, van waaruit we die opleidingen geven. Maar ook, en ik vind dat wel heel belangrijk, zelf ook procesbegeleidingen doen in organisaties. Dus we willen ook zelf met onze voeten in de modder staan. Het werk goed voelen ook. En van daaruit eigenlijk ook altijd nieuwe inspirerende inzichten de wereld inbrengen. Ja, dat is een beetje wat we doen. En mijn rol daarin is dan vooral ja, ik heb het opgericht, ik ben de zaakvoerder, maar ik probeer ook vooral de creatieve geest warm te houden en de methode door te ontwikkelen. Het was een aantal jaren geleden voor jou een ontdekking Deep Democracy. Ik weet zeker dat dat voor heel wat luisteraars ook nog een onbekend begrip is, dus dat moet je toch om te beginnen even uitleggen, als dat kan. Ja, fijn dat ik die kans krijg. Elke kans om Deep Democracy uit te werken is een hele fijne. Voor mij is Deep Democracy eigenlijk, in zijn basis betekent het dat er in veel contexten, op het werk, in organisaties en in de samenleving een dominant discours is. Een discours dat we met een aantal mensen volhouden dat dat gaat over alle mensen. Maar eigenlijk gaat dat heel vaak niet over alle mensen. Er zijn heel veel verschillende perspectieven in de samenleving en Deep Democracy wil eigenlijk aandacht hebben voor die verschillende stemmen en gelooft er eigenlijk in dat als we iets meer naar die minderheidsstemmen zouden luisteren, of naar die andere stemmen wil ik ze eigenlijk liever noemen want soms zijn ze ook helemaal niet in de minderheid, dat we veel meer tot collectieve wijsheid kunnen komen die we eigenlijk op dit moment in de samenleving ook nodig hebben. Want die samenleving is in een snel tempo in een transitie aan het gaan. We zien daarin heel wat bewegen op dit moment en we denken eigenlijk dat we alle stemmen nodig hebben. En hoe doen we dat dan met elkaar? En Deep Democracy biedt daar een stukje tools voor. Echt ook heel hanteerbare instrumenten, bijvoorbeeld instrumenten rond op een andere manier besluiten nemen, op een andere manier spanning en conflict met elkaar aangaan. Maar voor mij is ook een soort levenshouding geworden. Of zo'n manier van kijken ook naar mensen en naar de wereld en van daaruit ook een stuk mezelf en de mensen die we opleiden ook oefenen in een aantal, ja, wij noemen dat soms meta skills of zo, of bijna grondhoudingen van waaruit je met mensen omgaat op wat meer compassievolle manier, meer uw intuïtie gebruiken soms, vertrouwen ook op ja, dat er ook veel wijsheid in mensen zit in organisaties en in teams. En van daaruit vertrekken. Niet altijd vanuit een expertrol. Dus dat is wel een heel andere manier van groepen te faciliteren en te begeleiden. Ja, voor mij was het een ontdekking in die zin, omdat ik al een aantal dingen aan het doen was, heel vaak ook wel zo gezien werd als een beetje een speciale facilitator, oh, die doet wat rare dingen en toen ineens dacht ik ja maar ik doe eigenlijk dit. Dus ik heb een beetje taal gevonden voor de dingen waar ik al vanuit mezelf wat rond aan het experimenteren was. En ja, dat is voor jezelf interessant en wellicht ook naar de geloofwaardigheid. Voor anderen helpt dat ook. Als je er een goede naam en een duidelijke methodiek op kan kleven en daarrond ook gestructureerd aan het werk kan gaan. Ja, en wat het mij heeft gebracht is ook, en dat vind ik zelf ook heel interessant aan Deep Democracy, het heeft mij een opening gegeven eigenlijk naar een hele internationale gemeenschap ook van mensen die dit doen. Dus die democracy als methode zit in veertig landen op de wereld, dat is best wel veel, en ook in landen waar het best wel spannend is. Ik heb bijvoorbeeld collega's in Libanon met wie we contact hebben gehad de laatste tijd. Ook collega's in Turkije, collega's in de VS en Canada die nu ook erg geschokt zijn door wat daar allemaal gebeurt. Dus dat is ook boeiend omdat dat dat veld ook een beetje ruimer maakt dan dat je alleen vanuit die Belgische bril kijkt. En waar is het ontstaan? Het is eigenlijk ontstaan, toch de methode die wij hier onderwijzen, het heeft eigenlijk twee ontstaansgronden. Een eerste is eigenlijk bij Arnold Mindell. Ik vind dat een heel inspirerende persoon. Hij is helaas niet meer op de wereld bij ons. Hij is overleden vorig jaar, maar hij is voor mij iemand in de grote namen zoals Freud en Jung zou je kunnen zeggen. Mindell is eigenlijk de volgende, was een kwantumfysicus die psychologie is gaan studeren, ook al interessant zo twee heel verschillende velden bij elkaar gebracht, en die eigenlijk vond dat we in de manier waarop we keken naar mensen en groepen eigenlijk dat kwantum denken meer moesten gaan toepassen. Dus hij is een ongelooflijk theoreticus, dus heel interessante theoretische basis, maar is ook begonnen met wereldwerkconferenties te organiseren, 400 à 500 mensen in de ruimte brengend. En toen hij dat de eerste keer deed, zeiden mensen na een paar uur ‘Wij gaan terug naar huis als jullie hier zo blijven praten'. En zo is de term Deep Democracy eigenlijk ontstaan, als een aandacht hebben voor als je mensen vanuit heel verschillende perspectieven samenbrengt, hoe doe je dat dan op een manier dat al die stemmen gehoord worden. Dus dat is één inspiratiebron. En dat is een beetje ontstaan in ja, hij heeft veel gepraktiseerd in de VS, maar eigenlijk waar dat hij de methode het eerst ontwikkeld heeft, is in Zürich. Want het is een Amerikaan. Het is een Amerikaan, maar die is gaan studeren aan het Jungiaans Instituut in Zwitserland. En daar zijn ze eigenlijk met de eerste experimenten begonnen. Maar degene van wie ik het geleerd heb is Myrna Lewis. Het stukje van de methode dat wij vooral onderwijzen, is de Lewis methode van Deep Democracy. En Myrna Lewis woonde in Zuid-Afrika. En dat vind ik ook een heel interessant gegeven. Het is eigenlijk ontstaan in de post-apartheidsperiode. Awel ja, daar associeerde ik het eigenlijk al spontaan mee. Ja, ja, absoluut. En dat is een ongelooflijk rijke bron van ervaring geweest natuurlijk. Want mensen moesten ineens met elkaar gaan samenwerken die heel gesegregeerd van elkaar hadden geleefd. Ik denk dat we ons amper kunnen voorstellen hoe moeilijk en vreemd dat moet geweest zijn. En daar ontstond natuurlijk, ja, heel veel rond. Ja, Wie heeft hier nu de macht? Stereotypen en vooroordelen die nog heel erg leefden, uitsluitingsmechanismen. En daar zijn zij eigenlijk begonnen om wat dat ze geleerd hadden van Arnold Mindell, om dat te gaan toepassen in een aantal organisaties en met name in een heel groot staatsbedrijf. Daar is het eigenlijk allemaal begonnen en ze hebben daar één team een paar weken begeleid omdat die zwaar in de problemen zaten, grote conflicten. En dan hebben ze eigenlijk, en dat vind ik ook, dat tijdsgewricht is daar ook interessant. Er was een uitspraak die heel belangrijk was in de post-apartheidsperiode en dat was om mensen te empoweren. En ze hebben eigenlijk vrij snel de kaart getrokken van, in plaats van dat wij al die teams een voor een gaan begeleiden, laat ons de mensen leren hoe ze zelf hun eigen team op een andere manier kunnen gaan begeleiden, leiden. En dus zijn ze al snel begonnen eigenlijk met cursussen te geven en eigenlijk vandaag is dat nog altijd waar wij ook heel erg in geloven. Soms gaan wij faciliteren, maar we proberen ook altijd wat dat wij doen met die groep ook onmiddellijk terug door te geven. Dus voor mij is die gedachte van empowerment ook wel een heel belangrijke in onze eigen bedrijfsvoering of de manier waarop dat wij daar dan mee omgaan. Ja, voilà, dat zijn een beetje de inspiratiebronnen. En ondertussen zijn wij er dan ook verder mee aan de slag gegaan natuurlijk. Dus jullie geven opleidingen, jullie begeleiden trajecten. Hoe moet ik me dat voorstellen? Als een bedrijf, een organisatie vraagt om een begeleiding rond Deep Democracy in hun organisatie? Wat gaan jullie dan doen of hoe pak je dat aan? Dat kan heel verschillend zijn. Dus de aanmeldingen zitten vaak op drie vlakken zo. We hebben best wel wat vragen rond conflict. Als er spanning en conflict is en mensen geraken er zelf niet meer uit. Er zijn ook wel wat vragen rond hoe kunnen we beter samenwerken. Wij noemen dat zo'n beetje co-creatie, meer co-creatie-, participatieve vraagstukken. Die zitten soms op organisatievlak, maar ook op maatschappelijk vlak. Bijvoorbeeld de hele dekolonisatiebeweging, die een paar jaar geleden, nu is het weer wat aan het wegdeemsteren heb ik de indruk, maar toch wel heel actief was, vereiste ook maatschappelijke gesprekken waar dat die verschillende perspectieven aan bod konden komen. En dan een laatste aanmelding is vaak ook rond inclusie waar jullie ook heel veel rond werken. En ja, dat kan heel verschillend zijn. Soms is er een nood aan meer kennis of vaardigheden daarrond en dan zullen we meer insteken vanuit opleiding eigenlijk. Maar ja, dan komen we heel vaak de organisatiepatronen tegen. Soms is de aanleiding ook anders, soms kan er ook iets gebeurd zijn, bijvoorbeeld een incident of zo dat gebeurd is in de organisatie of een paar keer gebeurd is. En waar de organisaties van denken, oei, maar daar moeten we het met elkaar wel echt over hebben. We vertrekken eigenlijk altijd met onze klant vanuit een afstemmingsgesprek noemen wij dat waarin dat we samen een beetje verkennen van ja wat kan ons aanbod zijn. Maar waar hebben jullie ook echt nood aan en wat hebben jullie soms al ondernomen zelf daarrond? Waar zitten er gave gebieden en waar zit de veerkracht om hieraan te werken? En waar zullen we toch een klein beetje gaan challengen of wat confronterend soms, zelf aan de slag moeten gaan. En die trajecten kunnen heel verschillend zijn. Soms kan het zijn dat we gewoon met een klein groepje werken en dat we een klein groepje coachen bijvoorbeeld, of een conflictbemiddeling opzetten. Maar heel vaak werken we ook met grote groepen mensen. We vinden dat zelf heel fijn om de mensen met de verschillende perspectieven ook echt in de ruimte te hebben. Zo heb ik eigenlijk wel mooie dingen ook mogen doen met bijvoorbeeld tachtig mensen in de ruimte die vanuit heel verschillende belangen en perspectieven naar een bepaald thema samen hebben gekeken, daar een hele dag samen rond hebben gewerkt en waar je dan op het einde van de dag zo'n mooie dingen ziet ontstaan eigenlijk als er naar iedereen kan geluisterd worden. En daar zorgen wij dan vooral voor. Ja, want hoe doe je dat dan? Hoe kan de luisteraar daarmee aan de slag morgen of vandaag in zijn of haar organisatie? Ja, het idee is, laat de stem van de minderheid duidelijk aan het woord om op die manier die collectieve wijsheid aan te boren. Maar ja, oké, interessant. Ja, dat moeten we zeker doen. En hoe doe je dat op een haalbare manier? Ja, zonder dat ik hier natuurlijk een opleiding van negen dagen ga geven. Maar ik denk, voor mij zijn er zo wel een aantal basishoudingen of zo waar dat we rond kunnen werken. Een eerste is denk ik ons heel erg bewust zijn van onze eigen manier van spreken en luisteren. Sommigen van ons spreken weinig en die zullen wij uitnodigen om meer te spreken. Sommigen van ons spreken veel, heeft ook heel vaak te maken met onze positie die we hebben in de organisatie, onze formele positie. Ik zit zelf ook in een leidersrol. Ja, vanzelf ga je meer spreken, want dat wordt ook van u verwacht. Maar dat kan ook te maken hebben met die meervoudige identiteit van waaruit we spreken. Hogergeschoolde mensen nemen ook gemakkelijker het woord. We weten dat in mannen- en vrouwenteams mannen vaak veel langere spreektijd nemen op een vergadering dan vrouwen bijvoorbeeld of mannen ook het woord aan elkaar doorgeven. Dus. Dat zijn zaken waar dat wij op gaan letten in onze manier van faciliteren. Dus dat is heel fijn werk eigenlijk ook om daar oog voor te hebben van hoe uit ik, ik noem het dan met een groot woord, maar hoe uiten machtsdynamieken zich eigenlijk een stuk in de manier waarop we dialogeren. Da's al een stuk waar dat we op gaan letten. Er zit ook een stuk persoonlijkheidskenmerken in waarschijnlijk, los van macht. Ook, ook denk ik ja. De ene mens is veel extraverter en zal makkelijker zich uitspreken dan de ander. Naar mijn aanvoelen is dat een kleiner stuk van wat het bepaalt dan onze sociale identiteit denk ik. Dat is interessant ja. Of is mijn ervaring toch om daar zo naar te kijken. Ja dat is zeker een stukje. En dan, we hebben ook een paar echt heel stapsgewijze tools die we kunnen inzetten. En dat vind ik ook wel interessant want vaak als we in contexten terechtkomen in organisaties die ons nodig hebben, ja dan is er wel wat chaos en wat moeite en wat ongemak en wat discomfort. Dus waar dat wij ook heel erg aan gaan werken met onze tools is eigenlijk omdat die zo stapsgewijs zijn, brengen die een soort houvast en een soort veiligheid binnen in de ruimte. We zeggen tegen mensen oké, we gaan dat zo doen dat conflict, we gaan eerst veiligheidsregels met jullie afspreken. We gaan dan zeggen wat er moet gezegd worden en doordat we dat een stukje kunnen containen op die manier ontstaat er ook, wat we dan soms in technische termen een safe space noemen, ik zou zelfs liever spreken over een brave space, dat we eigenlijk ruimtes creëren waar we zo moedig zijn om te zeggen wat er eigenlijk moet gezegd worden. En dat is één van de dingen denk ik die heel erg Deep Democracy typeert en tegelijkertijd ook heel cultuurgevoelig is, is zeggen wat er moet gezegd worden. Ja, jullie kennen ook de Vlaamse context. Dat hebben we niet echt geleerd. Dus een van de kwaliteiten voor mij die ik ook altijd benoem is zo het lef hebben om het ook te zeggen. Waar vinden we de moed en ook de overtuiging dat het belangrijk is dat wat ik te zeggen heb, dat ik dat ook breng. En heel veel mensen hebben al ervaren in hun leven denk ik, zeker die andere stemmen, dat wanneer zij gesproken hebben, dat dat niet altijd au-sérieux werd genomen, dat dat werd genegeerd, verworpen, ja, soms zelfs belachelijk gemaakt. Dus ze hebben vaak heel negatieve ervaringen met het brengen van een ander perspectief. En doordat wij in de ruimte zijn is dat er minder. En dan ontstaat er vaak een heel interessant proces, want het is een methode die aandacht heeft voor minderheidsstemmen, maar we zeggen ook heel expliciet het is niet dat de wijsheid alleen bij de minderheid zit. Wat er gebeurt wanneer er geluisterd wordt naar die minderheidsstemmen is dat die meerderheid ineens ook een veel grotere diversiteit aan meningen laat zien. Dat is ineens niet meer één blok of dat dominante discours want er zijn natuurlijk ook mensen die er heel anders over denken. Maar als er een paar mensen zichtbaar anders zijn, dan is het soms gemakkelijk om u te verstoppen in een groepje, zeg ik wel eens. Mijn boek ligt hier. Het coverbeeld dat Shamisa Debroey ooit getekend heeft gaat daar eigenlijk over. Een hele hoop zebra's waar dat er eentje zichtbaar de andere kant uitkijkt. We hebben de neiging om alles van verschil daar te leggen, maar eigenlijk zijn al die zebra's heel erg verschillend en daar nodigen wij eigenlijk heel erg toe uit. En daar hebben we dan verschillende manieren van spreken voor. Misschien een van mijn favorietjes is het gesprek op voeten om er zo eentje te noemen. Dat is een methode waar dat we met een hele grote groep kunnen spreken. Dus we gaan samen in de ruimte staan en iemand die iets wil zeggen, die zet ook letterlijk een stap naar voor en we vragen herkenning voor wat die zegt. En dat op zich is heel interessant, want ineens zie je in een groep ook beweging ontstaan van ah ja, maar eigenlijk herken ik dat ook. En ineens vinden mensen elkaar ook op die vloer die anders denken van ah ja nee, we denken daar toch verschillend over. Want herkenning betekent je beweegt in de richting van de persoon of weg van de persoon als je het er niet mee eens bent. Dus het is een heel dynamische manier van dialogeren. Ondertussen weten we, het is eigenlijk een heel oude vorm, we hadden het daarnet al over het Afrikaanse continent en deze vorm van spreken lijkt heel erg op een aantal oude gebruiken van spreken daar. Maar ondertussen weten we vanuit de neurowetenschappen, dat vind ik dan zo interessant, dat we die dingen nu kunnen combineren. Dat als we letterlijk bewegen met ons lichaam in ons brein ook onze neurale banen gestimuleerd worden. Dus eigenlijk zit er ook intuïtief heel veel wijsheid in dat we dat op een bewegende manier doen. Dat we dat staand doen. Verklaart ook waarom het soms veel interessanter is om een gesprek met z'n tweeën al wandelend te doen dan aan tafel. Zeker. Ik denk zo in covid tijden zijn er dingen ontstaan als wandelcoaching en zo en ik hoor veel coaches die dat niet meer loslaten omdat ze echt voelen dat de meerwaarde van bewegen inderdaad ook een rol speelt. Maar het is in de groep ook een interessante methodiek om de verschillen beter zichtbaar te maken, bespreekbaar te maken. En dat is één van jouw favorieten zei je net. Ja. Het komt natuurlijk ook vanuit mijn eigen levenservaring om ze het gevoel te hebben van een andere stem te hebben en dan ruimte te krijgen om daar iets mee te mogen doen. Dat is wel een stukje mijn roeping geweest denk ik doorheen mijn loopbaan om daar wat mee te doen op heel verschillende manieren. Ik heb dat in mijn engagement in de jeugdbeweging al gedaan omdat ik heb gewerkt met kinderen met een beperking in de jeugdbeweging waar dat eigenlijk geen plaats voor was in de jeugdbeweging. Dus dat is al heel vroeg gestart om daar oog voor te hebben. En wat mij drijft vandaag is vooral denk ik, ik noem mezelf soms ook transitiepedagoge, is dat ik denk dat net vandaag, doordat die samenleving zoveel nodig heeft eigenlijk, we hebben eigenlijk alle wijsheid nodig om het tij nog te keren denk ik soms, is het zo jammer dat we alleen maar luisteren naar bepaalde stemmen of naar een aantal leiders die dan denken dat ze spreken vanuit het grote gelijk van iedereen. Maar dat is niet. Dat klopt natuurlijk niet. Ja en als je vandaag de dag ziet wat er aan het gebeuren is in de wereld en in ons eigen Vlaamse landje of overal, dan krijg je wel het gevoel dat die dominante meerderheid alleen nog belangrijker wordt en de minderheid nog meer onderdrukt wordt of verdrukt of hoe moet ik het zeggen. Het is zeker zorgelijk. Gisteravond, ik heb twintigers in huis, ging het gesprek alleen maar over de decreten die getekend waren en wat daar allemaal aan het gebeuren is. Het is heel zorgelijk. Met de nieuwe president in Amerika. Ja, ja, ja, we moeten het een beetje contextualiseren deze podcast natuurlijk. Maar ik maak me wel zorgen en ik ben ook wel droevig soms ook. Ik kan echt verdriet voelen rond de wereld die we achterlaten voor onze komende generaties. Tegelijkertijd is mijn werk dat ik doe mijn bijdrage ook of zo. Dus dat voel ik ook heel erg van, dit is werk dat we moeten blijven doen en ik denk dat we niet mogen onderschatten, daar zit mijn hoop. Het is een beetje zoals schimmelnetwerken onder de grond. Die zijn eigenlijk heel sterk. Dat zijn kleine fijne draadjes. Maar ik geloof er dus in dat er heel veel van die schimmelnetwerken eigenlijk ook aan het bewegen zijn en die zijn soms niet zo zichtbaar, maar die kunnen wel een heel stevige tegenbeweging vormen. En ik denk dat het tijd is dat we ook wel boven de grond uitschieten en onze champignons eens laten zien en al onze verschillende zwammen. En ja, het is misschien een metafoor daarvoor, maar ik geloof er wel in dat er meer aan de gang is en dat we die tegenbeweging ook wel zullen zien komen. Dat is alleszins mijn hoop. Ja ja, ik deel die hoop. En enkele van jouw paddenstoelen zijn je boeken die je al geschreven hebt, die dan heel zichtbaar boven de grond en zelfs hier op tafel liggen nu. Kun je dat even kort situeren? Je hebt verschillende boeken geschreven ondertussen. Ja, ik schrijf ook wel graag omdat ik het een fijne manier vind om de ervaring die ik mag opdoen en wat ik eigenlijk zelf heb mogen leren door organisaties te begeleiden, om dat ook te kunnen teruggeven. Dat is mijn manier dan om die inspiratie eigenlijk te delen. Dus mijn boeken zijn heel narratief en er zitten veel cases altijd in, omdat ik denk dat we daar heel veel uit kunnen leren. En natuurlijk ook wel wat theoretische achtergronden. En één boek en dat is net in een herwerkte uitgave uitgekomen, is mijn boek rond Deep Democracy ‘Van zondebok naar zebra'. Ik heb het herwerkt omdat we de methode hebben doorontwikkeld, maar ook omdat ik er een nieuw hoofdstuk in heb willen schrijven. En dat is een hoofdstuk over leiderschap. En ik denk dus ook vandaag de dag dat dat iets heel belangrijk is om te ontwikkelen in onszelf, leiderschap. En een andere visie te krijgen ook op wat zijn nu sterke leiders. Dus daar schrijf ik ook een stukje over. En het tweede boek dat hier ligt is ‘Professioneel handelen in een meerstemmige samenleving'. Dat is eigenlijk een boek waarin ik heel veel jaren ervaring samenbreng. Niet alleen mijn ervaring, maar ik ben ook gaan spreken met mensen die voor mij ook boegbeelden zijn of voorbeelden van dat zij ook effectief iets hebben doen kantelen in de samenleving. En ik ben met hen gaan spreken tien jaar geleden en dan vorig jaar opnieuw. En dat was ook heel boeiend om die gesprekken opnieuw te doen en te kijken waar zij dan tegenaan gelopen waren, wat zij veranderd hebben in hun manier van kijken en denken daarover. Dus daar zitten interviewtjes met hen in en er zitten een aantal cases in en ook wat tools om aan de slag te gaan. Ook nog een recent boek dan. Ja, dat is in 2024 uitgekomen. Deze heb ik herwerkt, maar dat is een nieuw boek eigenlijk op basis wel van een boek dat ik eerder geschreven had dan, een tiental jaar geleden, maar ik vond dat de wereld ondertussen op dit vlak zo veranderd was dat het tijd was om daar nog eens opnieuw in te duiken. Heel mooi. Ondertussen kan ik misschien ook zeggen dat hier ook een sidekick aan tafel zit, mijn collega Eva Maréchal. Ja ik wou even inpikken op inderdaad het boek dat jij hebt geschreven rond professioneel handelen in een meerstemmige samenleving. Ik denk dat een van die grote inspiratiebronnen van jou daarin ook Edwin Hoffman is. En hoe heb je zijn denken meegenomen in in jouw praktijken? Ja, Edwin is inderdaad een heel inspirerende man en we nodigen hem nog jaarlijks uit in het HUMMUS huis om ook zijn wijsheid te delen. Waar hij voor mij toch wel een steen verlegd heeft, is dat hij eigenlijk op een hele uitnodigende manier, denk ik, want hij is een hele beminnelijke persoon, eigenlijk heeft duidelijk gemaakt dat onze manier van vormingen te geven rond alles wat te maken heeft met diversiteit en inclusie of interculturele competentie, ja, dat was heel vaak geschoold op heel veel studies over andere culturen, over mensen die anders waren. En Edwin Hoffman heeft voor mij aangetoond dat het eigenlijk veel meer gaat om gewoon fatsoenlijk met elkaar communiceren vanuit vooral de kennis van uw eigen referentiekader. En dat is een boodschap die hij jaren geleden, als ik hem de allereerste keer hoorde, vond ik dat eigenlijk heel inspirerend. Ik had toen zelf ook gestudeerd aan die interactie academie, waar hij eigenlijk ook zijn mosterd heeft gehaald. En ik vond het heel inspirerend dat hij die werelden met elkaar verbond en dat hij eigenlijk een pleidooi geeft om op een manier te communiceren waarbij we onszelf echt uitnodigen om heel erg in die openheid te gaan in het en en denken, onze horizon te verbreden eigenlijk, maar vanuit de kennis van onze eigen meervoudige identiteit. En hij heeft dan het TOPOI-model ontwikkeld. Dat is ook een heel handzaam model en ik gaf toen les ook aan studenten en dat was één van de modellen die ik hen ook aanleerde en die hen enorm veel heeft geholpen denk ik ook gewoon in het veld, want het is een heel praktijkgericht model dat heel hanteerbaar is. Ja, want dat en en denken, wat moeten we daaronder verstaan als het gaat om meervoudige identiteit en met elkaar in dialoog gaan? Ja, het is ook de laatste letter van mijn PEACE-model, dat en en denken. Voor mij gaat dat over dat we eigenlijk heel vaak balanceren als we echt over inclusie nadenken. En we kunnen dat begrip ook zelfs in vraag stellen vandaag. Maar als we in elk geval erop uit zijn dat we, ik zou meer het begrip meerstemmigheid willen gebruiken, als we meer meerstemmige teams en organisaties willen bouwen, dat we eigenlijk altijd aandacht moeten hebben voor twee facetten. Enerzijds we zijn daar allemaal als mens, als werknemer, als teamlid. Er is iets wat ons bindt en verbindt op het niveau van gelijken. Maar er is ook altijd verschil aanwezig. En hoe doen we dat met dat verschil? En er zijn organisaties die te veel gaan zitten op ‘we zijn allemaal gelijk en dus moeten we niks speciaal doen, want iedereen moet maar gewoon heel hard zijn best doen'. Dan krijg je de meritocratische benadering een beetje. Maar er zijn ook organisaties die iets te veel soms in het uitzonderingenbeleid zijn gaan zitten en dus voor iedereen allerlei aparte regelingen gaan treffen. En dan eigenlijk ontstaat er vaak ook een cultuur waarin er een soort verdringing komt, ook van minderheden onder elkaar. En waar het en en denken voor pleit is waar vinden we nu de balans tussen die twee? Waar kunnen we en recht doen aan ‘oké, we zijn allemaal mensen hier' en waar kunnen we recht doen aan ‘maar we zijn ook allemaal echt verschillend' zonder dat we die uit het oog verliezen. Dus het is een pleidooi eigenlijk dat veel verder gaat dan, het een is kleurenblindheid, maar het andere, zou ik bijna durven noemen, is ook een soort exotisme of zo waar ook heel veel stereotypen en vooroordelen uit ontstaan en wat soms groepen ook tegen elkaar opzet op de werkvloer. En dat willen we eigenlijk ook niet en dat zullen jullie, met jullie eigen praktijk, waarschijnlijk ook wel weten dat dat soms een moeilijke balans is en dat die schuiver niet altijd in het midden ligt ook niet. Soms moeten we een beetje naar daar meer en soms moeten we … Ik moet een beetje denken nu in de samenleving dan aan heel de woke beweging die soms door sommigen misschien in die richting geduwd wordt of geïnterpreteerd wordt. Ja, ik denk het. Op zich heb ik een zwak voor het woordje woke, want het is eigenlijk een heel mooi woord. Wakker worden, wakker worden van wat er echt gebeurt. En het is ook een woord dat ontstaan is in een heel specifieke context, namelijk bij de mensen die eigenlijk in de slavernij zaten en elkaar wakker maakten op momenten dat er dreiging was. Daar is het woord ontstaan en ik denk dat we het nu een beetje een verkeerde betekenis zijn gaan geven. Want als het daarover gaat, over dat wakker zijn, dan denk ik wel dat er nog heel veel werk is in de samenleving om dat te doen. Maar ik denk dat het niet helpend is als we dat op een heel rigide manier gaan doen. Ik herinner, mij omdat je zo sprak over hoe gaat het dan in organisaties, een opdracht die we een keer hebben gedaan voor een universiteit waar we gewerkt hebben met het administratief personeel van de universiteit. Ik kon heel goed begrijpen dat het voor sommige mensen erg verwarrend was hoe ze studenten nog konden aanspreken. Mijn compassie en dan bedoel ik niet medelijden, maar echt mededogen moet daar eerst naar uitgaan van ja, dat is verwarrend voor jullie. En natuurlijk is dat niet zo moeilijk om je in te bewegen. Tegelijkertijd ontbrak daar ook een stukje kennis, ervaring, levenservaring met wat dat dat echt betekende voor die studenten en de impact die dat had. Dus daar hebben we dat gesprek eigenlijk gaan faciliteren. Dat er veel meer van die lift experiences eigenlijk konden verteld worden, waardoor aan hun kant er ook veel meer begrip ontstond voor de soms ja kwetsende mails die dan toch wel vertrokken. Of het gelach aan de balie als ze bepaalde studenten zagen binnenkomen. Ja wat toch eigenlijk ook ongewenste dynamieken met zich meebracht. Maar dus ik denk daar als je daarmee puur het woke gebeuren af kan als een set van regeltjes, het moet nu zo, zo moeten jullie dat nu gaan doen, dan denk ik dat we ook een een stapje overslaan en dat is namelijk uitreiken ook naar die mensen voor wie de samenleving ook erg aan het veranderen is en die soms ook niet kunnen volgen in wat er aan het gebeuren is. Een heel mooi moment vond ik dat iemand gewoon na een half uurtje of zo zei, we hadden nog wat kennis gemaakt en zo, ik probeer dan een veilige sfeer te creëren, en die gewoon heel eerlijk zei, ja ik heb dat nu al zo lang eens willen vragen, maar LGBTQ+, die afkorting, kun je dat nu eens uitleggen. Ja tuurlijk. Maar dan denk ik, en hoe komt het dat niemand de tijd heeft genomen om dat uit te leggen aan die mevrouw die eigenlijk heel veel telefonische gesprekken moest doen om coachgesprekken af te spreken? Toch belangrijk, niet, dat je dan een klein beetje weet van hoe spreek ik de mensen aan en die daar dus heel onzeker van was geworden en dat eigenlijk niet meer graag wilde doen. Dus die wilde eigenlijk bijna uit die functie stappen terwijl ze er altijd goed in was geweest. Dus ik denk daarmee kunnen omgaan zo, dat er ook onzekerheid aan de andere kant is, ja dat vind ik ook wel onze rol. Fanny, je refereerde daarnet naar bewustzijn van je eigen persoonlijke referentiekader. Dat is heel belangrijk, maar dat is veel makkelijker gezegd dan gedaan. Want ja, onszelf in de spiegel kijken en vaststellen wat is ons referentiekader, dat is zowat het moeilijkste, dat is zoals een vis die in het water zwemt en die zich niet bewust is van het water. Hoe pak je dat aan? Hoe kun je mensen daar helpen die spiegel voor te houden? Ja, dat is natuurlijk ook een heel omvattende vraag. Ik denk dat dat ook met stukjes en beetjes gaat dat mensen dat leren zien. Maar wij gebruiken daar wel wat inspirerende werkvormen voor om daar rond te werken. Zo werk ik bijvoorbeeld ook met een hele grote kaartenset waar dat een aantal van die facetten op staan. En dan doen we eigenlijk eerst even de oefening van ah ja, als je nu eens denkt over een collega waar dat je het moeilijk mee hebt, op welke facetten zou die zitten. En al snel gaan ze dan naar één kaart eigenlijk waar het probleem zich situeert. En daarna draai ik het natuurlijk helemaal om waarbij het heel duidelijk wordt van, als jij nu vanuit die ene kaart zou aangesproken worden, zou dat dan uw volledige zelf zijn? En welke stukken van u spelen eigenlijk nog een rol? Dus dat stukje rond meervoudige identiteit, kruispuntdenken, interseksualiteit, dat is voor mij superbelangrijk. Ik gebruik nu even wat woorden, we kunnen er seffens nog op doorgaan. Gecombineerd eigenlijk met het feit dat ik ook eigenlijk met mensen heel vaak werk rond: Wat waren uw eigen ervaringen rond anders zijn. Ik denk dat zelfs heel veel mensen die behoren tot de zogenaamde dominante groep in de samenleving wel eens ervaringen hebben gehad van anders te zijn, over iets anders te denken, zich anders te voelen. En ik denk dat dat ook een heel interessante grond is. Wat gebeurde er als ik de andere stem was? Wat is er toen met mij gebeurd? Joris Luyendijk, die in Londen zat en besefte dat er zeven vinkjes waren, maar dat hij daar een vinkje miste of zo? Ja. En toch ook wel knap dat hij dat boek daar dan over schrijft, vind ik. Of een collega van mij, Meike Vroom, die nu een boek heeft geschreven ‘Ik ben geen racist, maar …'. Die eigenlijk ook een stukje aangeeft vanuit haar wit vrouw zijn, hoe ze toch nog vaak onbewust misschien ook wel uitlatingen doet die discriminerend zouden kunnen zijn. Maar dat aan onszelf durven toegeven en dus die spiegel eigenlijk ook aan onszelf voorhouden, daar bewustzijn rond creëren, ik geloof daar veel meer in dan heel veel mensen die zeggen, ja maar ja, ik ben een goeie persoon. Weet je wel. En dat is gemakkelijk, want dan duwen we het eigenlijk allemaal weg. Maar het is eigenlijk door in onze eigen ervaring te gaan zitten. Bijvoorbeeld een oefening die ik ook heel vaak doe als we rond conflicten werken is, denk eens terug aan uw kindertijd en welke boodschappen hebt ge daar gekregen rond verschil? Hoeveel van ons hebben we niet gehoord of in kinderboekjes gelezen, ge moogt geen ruzie maken. Dat is wel spijtig hè? Ik geloof niet dat er goede partnerrelaties zijn waarin we geen ruzie maken. Af en toe is dat toch flink nodig. Maar doordat er een taboe op zit, zijn we daar ook heel bang voor geworden. Laten we dat te lang liggen op werkvloeren. En dan komen er natuurlijk zwaardere conflicten of soms polarisatie om de hoek kijken. Dus ik ga heel vaak terug met mensen eigenlijk naar waar zitten zo wat wortels en we verkennen dat aan de hand van oefeningen. Want veel conflicten of zelfs ook gewoon bewuste of onbewuste oordelen die we hebben over anderen, over situaties, zijn eigenlijk allemaal spiegels naar: waar komt het vandaan bij mij, waarom oordeel ik hier nu. En dus daarvan bewust worden, dat is een levensopdracht die nooit eindigt denk ik. Dat is zo en daar ben ik zelf ook nog alle dagen mee bezig eerlijk gezegd. We projecteren zo snel iets op een ander wat eigenlijk ook een boodschap voor onszelf is. Een uitspraak die ik vaak gebruik is ook zo: in elk verwijt zit een verlangen, zo wat dat je de ander verwijt, is dat nu niet iets waar dat je eigenlijk zelf ten diepste ook nog iets mee wil doen zo? Dus dat projectiemechanisme is wel iets heel interessant om onder de loep te nemen. Niet gemakkelijk soms en wordt vaak zo in de psychologische kant gezet. Ik gebruik die term niet zo vaak als we met mensen werken, maar mensen herkennen wel vaak, ja, dat ze echt durven kijken naar, van waaruit heb ik dan nu gezegd, dat er natuurlijk bij hen ook een nood onder zit of een behoefte die eigenlijk heel vaak onvervuld is. En daar zit ook een sterk raakvlak tussen bijvoorbeeld de methode Deep Democracy en verbindende communicatie, geweldloze communicatie. En daar zijn zeker heel veel linken ook te vinden. Je doet interventies zal ik het maar even noemen, onder andere in organisaties, naar aanleiding van een conflict of een concrete case. En dan kan ik me voorstellen dat je erin slaagt dat op de juiste manier te doen om uit dat conflict te geraken of om de weg vooruit te vinden. Tegelijkertijd is natuurlijk boeiend om te kijken hoe krijg ik een stukje van dat denken ook in die organisatie, zodanig dat ik niet moet terugkomen, maar dat ze zelf d'r mee vooruit kan? Heb je het gevoel dat dat ook lukt? En zijn daar situaties waar je spontaan aan denkt waarvan je zegt daar kijk ik echt met veel plezier op terug, want ik merk dat dat gewoon lukt en dat dat ook achterblijft. Ja, ik denk dat dat op veel vlakken al gebeurd is. Dus dat is een beetje onze unieke aanpak denk ik wel vanuit HUMMUS waar dat we voor kiezen is om ook een stuk achter te laten van de methodische kennis die wij dan hebben rond hoe dat je die dingen aanpakt. Ik herinner mij bijvoorbeeld een school waar dat we gewerkt hebben en waar dat er eigenlijk de vaststelling kwam na een tijdje werken met hen, dat er eigenlijk zoveel gewerkt werd vanuit kritische feedback op elkaar, de rode pen. Eigenlijk was dat een beetje het symbool, de rode pen die in het onderwijs ook zo aanwezig is naar onze studenten toe was ook heel erg aanwezig in de werkrelatie tussen elkaar en er was eigenlijk heel weinig ruimte voor waardering. En in Deep Democracy zit ook een hele mooie tool voor waardering. Wel in die school, het is al een paar jaar geleden, ik kan het niet met zekerheid zeggen dat ze het nu nog doen, maar hebben ze zich zichzelf wel aangewend om om de zes maanden eigenlijk waarderende gesprekken met elkaar te gaan doen aan de hand van die tool van Deep Democracy. En dat heeft een heel andere toon gezet in de manier van samenwerken. En dat is niet dat er dan geen kritische feedback meer mag zijn, maar we weten als mensen dat we eigenlijk zeven keer meer waardering nodig hebben dan dat we iets negatief kunnen eigenlijk echt beluisteren. Dus ook de punten van kritiek of van kritische feedback konden ook veel beter aanvaard worden een stukje omdat mensen ook hadden kunnen groeien in de erkenning van wat ze wel aan het doen waren. En ik denk ook dat dat in onderwijs vandaag niet eens zo'n uitzonderlijke situatie is die ik nu vertel want ik merk in heel veel scholen en ook maatschappelijk hoe we kijken naar scholen en naar leerkrachten dat de waardering soms heel erg ver zoek is. Dus da's zo'n voorbeeldje. Maar hoe mooi ook om deze methode in een school toe te passen, want ongetwijfeld heeft dat ook een stuk uitstraling naar hoe leerkrachten met hun leerlingen omgaan, waar die democratie wellicht ook een geweldige, hoe zal ik het zeggen, speeltuin is om aan te werken. Ja, ja, ja. En dat is eigenlijk een ander boek, dat heb ik nu niet meegebracht. ‘Rebelleren kan je leren' heb ik ook geschreven voor mensen die dus met kinderen en jongeren werken. Want één van mijn andere passies is dat ik denk hoe jonger we dit leren, hoe meer dat we kunnen werken aan die transitie in de samenleving eigenlijk, want onze jonge mensen zijn de leiders van morgen. Dus als die dat kunnen leren kennen, dat is super belangrijk. En dus we hebben nu een aantal voorbeelden ook, waar scholen inderdaad geïnspireerd zijn, waar dat we soms eerst met de directie gewerkt hebben, dan met de leerkrachten. Maar waar dat leerkrachten ook geïnspireerd natuurlijk daardoor in de klas ook dingen zijn gaan doen. En ik ben ook heel trots op het feit dat we momenteel, maar dat is nog gaande, in een Europees project zitten, dat heet Carp - en er is ook een website voor mensen die ernaar willen gaan kijken - waar dat we eigenlijk een doorontwikkeling doen van deze tools omdat we merkten dat als we die tools gaan binnenbrengen bij jonge mensen vandaag, dat heel vaak hun mentale veerkracht niet toelaat om die tools echt volledig te kunnen beleven. En dus ik ben gaan samenwerken met een organisatie in de UK die werkt rond mentale veerkracht bij jonge mensen in heel wat kwetsbare gebieden in East-London. En we hebben ook onze kennis samengelegd en we zijn eigenlijk nieuwe tools gaan ontwikkelen die in de klas kunnen gebruikt worden. En we zijn dat nu volop aan het uitrollen in twaalf scholen in vier verschillende landen. Ja dat is heel mooi werk om te mogen doen. En ja, ik was erbij bij één van de eerste toepassingen in een school met een grote maatschappelijke kwetsbaarheid in Londen. En de verhalen die dan naar boven komen bij die jonge mensen. Ja, ik sta er echt van te kijken ook hoeveel kracht er dan eigenlijk ook wel aanwezig is in die verhalen. En hoeveel moed en hoop dat zij ook wel tonen. Zelfs al is het leven voor hen elke dag een hele grote uitdaging en een grote struggle. Dat stuk is er ook en dat komt wel heel erg naar boven door de manier van werken met hen. Want Fanny, wat is dan de transitie dat je graag wil bereiken met de jongeren? Is dat dat zij hun eigen stem vinden en durven zich uit te spreken? Hoe moet ik dat zien in zo'n klascontext? Het gegeven van meerstemmigheid, Deep Democracy en ja, waar je nu net over sprak. Ja, ik denk voor mij, ik zei daarnet al dat leiderschap eigenlijk vind ik een heel belangrijk thema is en ik denk dat veel jongeren door het huidige onderwijssysteem, en nu ga ik even generaliseren, want dat is niet zo in alle scholen en ik weet dat er heel veel mensen aan een andere weg timmeren. Maar veel van onze jonge mensen geraken eigenlijk hun leiderschap kwijt in het onderwijs, worden een stukje geleefd, leren soms aan dingen gehoorzamen die voor hen niet authentiek voelen. En eigenlijk nodigen onze tools uit om dat eigen leiderschap van binnenuit terug te beleven. Dat is één stukje. En het andere stuk is als we dat kunnen bereiken in een groep, dan zie je de meerstemmigheid in die groep meer naar boven komen. Leren ze ook van om te gaan met verschillen tussen elkaar. Iets wat we toch heel erg zullen nodig hebben ook in werkcontexten. Maar ze ontdekken ook niet alleen de meerstemmigheid tussen elkaar in de klasgroep, maar ook de meerstemmigheid in zichzelf. En dat is ook iets heel mooi, veel jongeren hebben ook een heel beperkt idee over zichzelf gekregen vanuit hun opvoeding of vanuit hun onderwijs of vanuit de kansen die ze al dan niet soms hebben gekregen. En ineens ontdekken ze ook andere facetten van zichzelf, wat ook terug openingen creëert naar mogelijkheden die zij ook zien om hun pad toch wat vollediger te kunnen lopen. Dus ja, ik vind dat heel krachtig als we dat naar jonge mensen toe kunnen doen zo, hun eigen leiderschap, maar ook hun eigen meerstemmigheid. Heel mooi. En hoe belangrijk ja. We moeten de tijd een beetje in de gaten houden, want we willen het gesprek niet te lang maken. En ik heb het gevoel dat we dat nog heel, heel veel langer zouden kunnen maken want het is zo boeiend. Ik ben nog een beetje getriggerd misschien als laatste vraag zo. Tenzij mijn sidekick seffes nog de laatste vraag wil. Ja, de term Deep Democracy. We zitten in een samenleving waar die term democratie wel, laat ons zeggen, bedreigd is of in vraag gesteld wordt. En als ik jou zo beluister is Deep Democracy eigenlijk nog ja, een vorm democratie 2.0 of 3.0 of 4.0, een vergevorderde vorm daarvan. Ja. Ik wil daar verschillende vragen bij stellen, maar ik moet het bij één houden. Is dit iets wat we ook in ons politiek systeem moeten zien in te bouwen? Mijn antwoord zal ja zijn. Ik denk ook dat die er is. Zie je dat soms op sommige plaatsen gebeuren? Ja, het is een vraag die mij wel vaker gesteld wordt, ook als ik keynotes of zo ga geven dan zeggen mensen, ja politici zouden dit moeten horen. Maar mijn antwoord is ook, er zijn ook politici die hierin geïnteresseerd zijn op dit moment. En die ook bij ons opleidingen komen volgen of die de boeken hebben gelezen of zo. Ik denk dat veel mensen die vandaag actief zijn en meer vanuit een activistische insteek misschien in de politiek zijn gegaan, ook heel erg teleurgesteld zijn over wat ze daar maar kunnen bereiken omdat ja, daar ook een soort meerderheidsmanier van werken zijn ingang heeft gevonden en er eigenlijk ook weinig kansen zijn om daar echt samen te werken en samen te co-creëren, los van meerderheid minderheid. En dat we vandaag ook zien dat, bijvoorbeeld met de Brexit was dat heel duidelijk, dat was een meerderheid, maar dat was een heel krappe meerderheid. Dus een heleboel mensen zijn het er ook niet mee eens en dat land loopt vast, letterlijk. Als je in de UK kijkt, het gezondheidszorgsysteem, het educatief systeem loopt vast. Dus Deep Democracy, daar zit ook voor mij echt een politieke droom in, moet ik utopie zeggen, ik weet het niet. Maar alleszins een inspiratiebron om na te gaan denken over kunnen we ook onze manier van werken op politiek vlak, kunnen we die op een andere manier gaan organiseren. En wat mij heel erg inspireert op dit moment zijn toch wel die hele beweging naar burgerpanels bijvoorbeeld. Het is super boeiend wat daar allemaal aan het gebeuren is. David Van Reybrouck , een gedachtegoed. Ja die is daarmee gestart. Maar je ziet dat vandaag eigenlijk in heel veel landen oppoppen, in heel veel verschillende vormen ook. En dan ook het besef denk ik dat politici ook burgers zijn en dat zijn we ook een beetje kwijtgeraakt. Ook op hen wordt er heel veel geprojecteerd eigenlijk omdat zij alleen maar politiekers zijn, waar dan ook een heel stereotiep beeld over ontstaat. Maar eigenlijk zijn zij ook burgers die een bepaalde verantwoordelijkheid opnemen. En hoe kunnen we hen beter coachen ook een stuk in hun werk enzo. Er is eigenlijk heel weinig aandacht voor. Ik ben echt geschrokken als ik met een aantal mensen sprak in een politiek beroep hoe weinig ondersteuning zij krijgen, hoe weinig opleiding zij bijvoorbeeld ook krijgen. Dat zou ook al een heel groot verschil kunnen maken en dus dat er andere gespreksrituelen kunnen ontstaan. Ook in een gemeenteraad bijvoorbeeld, of in die commissies of in het parlement. Ik denk dat dat echt ons heel veel zou kunnen opleveren. Los van verkiezingen enzo. Dus daar kunnen we ook nog heel kritisch over nadenken. Maar gewoon als we al binnen het bestaande bestel op een andere manier zouden spreken en luisteren. Ik denk dat er dan al heel andere dingen zouden kunnen ontstaan. Ja dus daar nodigt Deep Democracy ook toe uit. En een tweede betekenis van deep, dus er zit echt ook wel dat idee van een andere democratie. Maar een tweede betekenis van diep sluit daarbij aan voor mij en dat is dat dat niet alleen zal gaan op een rationele manier. Dat als we anders met elkaar spreken, ook emoties bijvoorbeeld een rol moeten krijgen. En dat is ook iets wat we zien vandaag in de politiek, dat emoties eigenlijk niet mogen meespelen in beslissingen die genomen worden. Emoties, maar ook lichaamsgewaarwordingen, diepere wijsheid, wijsheid uit andere culturen. Ja, er is zoveel nog dat onder de waterlijn blijft en ik denk dat als we daar meer openheid rond zouden creëren, dat zou toch wel een heel groot verschil kunnen maken. Ja, ja, absoluut. Ik wil grote waardering uitdrukken, want dat was belangrijk heb je net gezegd, en het is heel oprecht gemeend. Dank je wel voor dit gesprek. We hebben hopelijk heel wat mensen geïnspireerd. Dank je wel voor de uitnodiging en ook heel veel waardering voor jullie werk dat ik op deze manier heb mogen leren kennen. Ja, dank je wel. Dank je wel Fanny. [outro] Je luisterde naar een aflevering van Let's Talk About Work, de podcast van de groep WEB-Blenders. Al onze gesprekken gaan over werk, de weg naar werk, welzijn op de werkvloer en alles wat daarbij komt kijken. Je vindt ons op je favoriete podcast platform en op www.blenders.be/podcast. Op social media kan je ons volgen op LinkedIn onder podcast Let's Talk About Work en op Instagram als Blenders podcast Let's Talk! Ook via de Blenders nieuwsbrief kan je up-to-date blijven. Was je geboeid? Zet dit gesprek je aan het denken? Ben je zelf graag één van onze volgende gasten? Laat het ons weten via info@blenders.be en wie weet schuif jij binnenkort mee aan tafel!

Lino Zeddies Schwerpunkt und Leidenschaft sind positive Zukunftsbilder, die in eine nachhaltige, ja sogar regenerative Gesellschaftsform führen. In letzter Zeit stellt er fest, die gesellschaftlichen Konflikte und Spaltungen gar nicht förderlich sind, um gemeinsam Zukunftsvisionen zu entwickeln. Also stellt er sich der Herausforderung: Wie können wir konstruktiv mit gesellschaftlichen Konflikten und der zunehmenden Polarisierung umgehen? Wie können wir eine lebendige Gesellschaft aufbauen, die den Dialog und das Verbindende sucht statt das Trennende zu betonen? Wie können wir unsere Demokratie regenerieren und den Zusammenhalt stärken? Lino ist gerade zu Besuch im Ökodorf und bearbeitet mit uns ganz konkret das kontroverse Thema Windkraft, welches die Öko-Szene gerade in zwei Lager zu spalten droht. In 1 km Entfernung von Sieben Linden wird gerade ein Windpark geplant. Erste Erkenntnisse: Wenn wir einen konstruktiven Umgang mit den vielen wabernden Spannungen und Konflikten finden, kann dies Verbundenheit zwischen den Menschen schaffen. Die schwelenden Konflikte sind Potenziale, die neue Schritte möglich machen. Wir müssen geeignete Formen, Rahmen und Umgangsweisen entwickeln, damit die Konflikte gut gelöst werden können. Dabei ist es wichtig, auch das Thema individuelles und kollektives Trauma bewusst einzubinden. 2.-7. März 2025 Erfahrungsraum mit Lino Zeddies (Reinventing society, Autor von Zukunftsbilder 2045) und Valentin Abe: Lebendiger Gesellschaftsdialog. Verbundenheit, Verständnis und Heilung für gesellschaftliche Spaltungen. https://lernort.siebenlinden.org/de/065495c481ff429e8d3f7f1dbf8e79bb/erfahrungsraum-lebendiger-gesellschaftsdialog Weiterführende Links: Lino Zeddies Website: https://linozeddies.de/ Linos Buch Zukunftsbilder 2025: https://realutopien.info/zukunftsbilder-2045/ Artikel zur Klimaschutzspaltung: https://linozeddies.de/blog/klimaschutzspaltung Artikel zu Rechtspopulismus: https://linozeddies.de/blog/in-der-ruhe-liegt-die-kraft-systemische-perspektiven-auf-rechtspopulismus-und-gesellschaftliche-transformation 10 Erkentnisse zur Überwindung gesellschaftlicher Spaltungen: https://linozeddies.de/blog/gesellschaftliche-spaltung-berwinden-10-erkenntnisse-aus-experimentellen-workshops https://linozeddies.de/blog/gesellschaftliche-spaltung-berwinden-10-erkenntnisse-aus-experimentellen-workshops Website Reinventing Society: https://www.realutopien.de/ https://realutopien.info/zukunftsbilder-2045/ Alle Bücher von Arnold Mindell: http://www.aamindell.net/books-by-arnold-mindell Valentin Abe: https://www.valentinabe.de/ Autorin: Simone Britschhttps://www.valentinabe.de/ Mail: podcast@siebenlinden.org Interviewpartner: Lino Zeddies Veröffentlicht unter der Creative Commons (CC BY 4.0) Copyright Freundeskreis Ökodorf e.V., 7.12.2024

Michal is 63 years old, newly widowed (not yet a year), a mom to a 24 YO woman and a process worker. Born in Israel she got her training in the Swiss PW training program, the first  Process work training created by Arnold Mindell and his associates.  After her training she came back to Israel and have been working there since,  with individuals and groups, training PW internationally and taking care of her partner.  Michal loves nature, animals of all kinds and people, not necessarily in that order... We talked about grief and loss and how it changes your life forever. If you like the podcast, please subscribe to it, share it with your friends, leave a comment and rating in Apple podcast (or wherever you get your podcast) and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠join our list ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠to get notified when a new episode is on air. If you wish to support the podcast by donating, please click the PayPal link ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://bit.ly/PayPal-Souloist ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Thank You for your generosity. Find us on: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Face Book⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠,⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ , ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠,⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Linkedin

Read the longform article at:https://gettherapybirmingham.com/healing-the-modern-soul-part-2/   The Philosophy of Psychotherapy The Corporatization of Healthcare and Academia: A Threat to the Future of Psychotherapy The field of psychotherapy is at a critical juncture, facing numerous challenges that threaten its ability to effectively address the complex realities of the human experience. Chief among these challenges is the growing influence of corporate interests and the trend towards hyper-specialization in academic psychology, which have led to a disconnect between the profession and its roots, as well as a lack of understanding of the physical reality of the body, anthropology, and the history of the field. In this article, we will explore the ways in which the corporatization of healthcare and academia is impacting psychotherapy, and argue that in order for the profession to remain relevant and effective, it must embrace a more holistic and integrative approach that recognizes the interconnectedness of the mind, body, and spirit. This requires a renewed commitment to developing a coherent concept of self, a shared language and understanding of implicit memory, and a vision of psychotherapy as a means of empowering individuals to become more effective at being themselves in the world and, in turn, better at transforming the world for the better. The Corporatization of Healthcare and Academia The influence of corporate interests on healthcare and academia has had a profound impact on the field of psychotherapy. The pressure to maximize profits and minimize costs has led to a shift away from comprehensive diagnosis and towards a reliance on quick fixes like medication and brief, manualized therapies. This trend is particularly evident in the way that psychiatry has evolved over the past few decades. Psychiatrists used to spend an entire hour with their patients doing psychotherapy, but now the majority of the profession relies solely on drug therapy. In fact, a staggering 89% of psychiatrists used only drug therapy in 2010, compared to just 54% in 1988 (Mojtabai & Olfson, 2008). Patients are often left feeling frustrated and unheard, with many giving up on medication after their psychiatrist writes a script in the first and last five minutes of their first session. The same forces are at work in academia, where the cost of education has skyrocketed and the focus has shifted towards producing "products" rather than fostering critical thinking and innovation. Adjunct professors, who often lack the expertise and experience to teach psychotherapy effectively, have replaced tenure-track faculty, and students are graduating with a narrow understanding of the field that is ill-suited to the realities of private practice (Collier, 2017). The result is a profession that is increasingly disconnected from its roots and the physical reality of the body. Anthropology, humanities and the history of the profession, which offer valuable insights into the nature of the human experience and the evolution of psychotherapy, are largely ignored in favor of a narrow focus on cognitive-behavioral interventions and symptom reduction pushed largely to help psychopharm companies' bottom lines (Frances, 2013). The current academic publishing system is also broken. Academics work hard to come up with original ideas and write papers, only to give their work away for free to publishers who make trillions of dollars in profits while the authors get no compensation (Buranyi, 2017). Peers often cite papers to support their own points without actually reading them in depth. And the "best" journals frequently publish absurd psychology articles that would make you laugh if you said their main point out loud, but hide their lack of substance behind academic jargon (Sokal, 2008). Meanwhile, students spend years in graduate school being forced to research what their advisor wants, not what's truly innovative or needed to advance the field. After a decade of study and compromise, the pinnacle achievement is often creating a new 30-question screener for something like anxiety, rather than developing therapists who can actually discern and treat anxiety without needing a questionnaire. The system fails to properly vet or pay therapists, assuming they can't be trusted to practice without rigid manuals and checklists. This hyper-rationality, the madness arising from too much logic rather than too little, is very useful to moneyed interests like the Department of Defense in how they want to fund and control research. Large language models and AI are the pinnacle of this - spreadsheets sorting data points to mimic human speech, created by people so disconnected from a real sense of self that they believe you can turn people into robots because they've turned themselves into robots (Weizenbaum, 1976). But psychology and therapy can't be reduced to hard science and pure empiricism the way fields like physics can (at least until you get to quantum physics and have to rely on metaphor again). We can't remove all intuition, subjective experience and uncertainty (Rogers, 1995). The reproducibility crisis in psychology research shows the folly of this over-rationality (Open Science Collaboration, 2015). Studies that throw out any participant who dropped out of CBT treatment because it wasn't helping them are not painting an accurate picture (Westen et al., 2004). Developing a Coherent Concept of Self A History of the Self Our understanding of the self has evolved throughout history: Ancient Greek Philosophy (6th century BCE - 3rd century CE) Socrates introduces the idea of the self as a distinct entity, emphasizing self-knowledge and introspection (Plato, trans. 2002). Plato's concept of the soul as the essence of the self, distinct from the physical body (Plato, trans. 1997). Aristotle's notion of the self as the unity of body and soul, with the soul being the form or essence of the individual (Aristotle, trans. 1986). Medieval Philosophy (5th century CE - 15th century CE) St. Augustine's concept of the self as a reflection of God, with the inner self being the source of truth and self-knowledge (Augustine, trans. 2002). St. Thomas Aquinas' synthesis of Aristotelian and Christian concepts of the self, emphasizing the soul as the form of the body (Aquinas, trans.1981). Renaissance and Enlightenment (16th century CE - 18th century CE) Descartes' famous "cogito ergo sum" ("I think, therefore I am"), establishing the self as a thinking, conscious being (Descartes, trans. 1996). Locke's idea of the self as a blank slate shaped by experience and the continuity of consciousness (Locke, trans. 1975). Hume's skepticism about the self, arguing that it is merely a bundle of perceptions without a unified identity (Hume, trans. 2000). Romantic Era (late 18th century CE - mid-19th century CE) The self is seen as a creative, expressive force, with an emphasis on individuality and subjective experience (Berlin, 2013). The rise of the concept of the "self-made man" and the importance of personal growth and self-realization (Trilling, 1972). 20th Century Philosophy and Psychology Freud's psychoanalytic theory, which posits the self as composed of the id, ego, and superego, with unconscious drives and conflicts shaping behavior (Freud, trans.1989). Jung's concept of the self as the center of the psyche, integrating conscious and unconscious elements (Jung, 1959). Existentialism's emphasis on the self as a product of individual choices and actions, with the need to create meaning in a meaningless world (Sartre, trans. 1956). The rise of humanistic psychology, with its focus on self-actualization and the inherent potential of the individual (Maslow, 1968). Postmodernism's deconstruction of the self, challenging the idea of a unified, coherent identity (Jameson, 1991). Contemporary Developments (late 20th century CE - present) The influence of neuroscience and cognitive science on the understanding of the self as an emergent property of brain processes (LeDoux, 2002). The impact of social and cultural factors on the construction of the self, with the recognition of multiple, intersecting identities (Gergen, 1991). The rise of narrative theories of the self, emphasizing the role of storytelling in shaping personal identity (Bruner, 1990). The influence of Eastern philosophies and contemplative practices on Western concepts of the self, with an emphasis on mindfulness and interconnectedness (Epstein, 1995). Psychotherapy and the Concept of Self Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) - Psychoanalysis: Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, conceived of the self as being composed of three elements: the id, the ego, and the superego. The id represents the primitive, instinctual drives; the ego mediates between the demands of the id and the constraints of reality; and the superego represents the internalized moral standards and values of society. Freud believed that the goal of psychotherapy was to bring unconscious conflicts and desires into conscious awareness, allowing the ego to better manage the competing demands of the id and superego (Freud, trans. 1989). Carl Jung (1875-1961) - Analytical Psychology: Jung, a former collaborator of Freud, developed his own theory of the self, which he saw as the central archetype of the psyche. Jung believed that the self represented the unity and wholeness of the personality, and that the goal of psychotherapy was to help individuals achieve a state of self-realization or individuation. This involved integrating the conscious and unconscious aspects of the psyche, including the persona (the public face), the shadow (the repressed or hidden aspects of the self), and the anima/animus (the inner masculine or feminine) (Jung, 1959). Alfred Adler (1870-1937) - Individual Psychology: Adler, another former collaborator of Freud, emphasized the importance of social relationships and the drive for superiority in shaping the self. He believed that individuals develop a unique lifestyle or way of being in the world based on their early experiences and relationships, and that the goal of psychotherapy was to help individuals overcome feelings of inferiority and develop a healthy, socially-oriented way of living (Adler, trans. 1964). Fritz Perls (1893-1970) - Gestalt Therapy: Perls, the founder of Gestalt therapy, saw the self as an ongoing process of self-regulation and self-actualization. He believed that the goal of psychotherapy was to help individuals become more aware of their present-moment experience and to take responsibility for their thoughts, feelings, and actions. Perls emphasized the importance of contact between the self and the environment, and the need to integrate the different aspects of the self into a cohesive whole (Perls et al., 1951). Internal Family Systems (IFS) - Richard Schwartz (1950-present): IFS is a more recent approach that sees the self as being composed of multiple sub-personalities or "parts." These parts are seen as having their own unique qualities, desires, and beliefs, and the goal of IFS therapy is to help individuals develop a greater sense of self-leadership and inner harmony. The self is seen as the core of the personality, with the capacity to lead and integrate the different parts (Schwartz, 1995). As Schwartz writes in the introduction to his book on IFS, the model was heavily influenced by Gestalt therapy and the work of Carl Jung. Schwartz aimed to create a non-pathologizing approach that honored the complexity and wisdom of the psyche. IFS shares Jung's view of the self as the central organizing principle, surrounded by various archetypes or subpersonalities. It also draws on the Gestalt emphasis on present-moment awareness and the need for integration of different aspects of the self. However, IFS offers a more user-friendly language than classical Jungian analysis, without the need for extensive explanations of concepts like anima/animus. In IFS, a patient can quickly identify different "parts" - for example, a protector part that taps its foot and bites its nails to avoid painful feelings. By directly engaging with and embracing that part, the patient can access the vulnerable feelings and memories it is protecting against, fostering self-compassion and integration over time. The IFS model is an example of how contemporary approaches are building on the insights of depth psychology while offering more transparent, experience-near practices suitable for a wider range of patients and practitioners. It reflects an ongoing effort to develop a cohesive yet flexible understanding of the self that remains open to unconscious processes. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy (CBT) - Aaron Beck (1921-2021) and Albert Ellis (1913-2007): CBT, developed by Beck and Ellis, focuses on the role of thoughts and beliefs in shaping emotional and behavioral responses. CBT sees the self as being largely determined by the individual's cognitions, and the goal of therapy is to help individuals identify and modify maladaptive or irrational beliefs and thought patterns. CBT places less emphasis on the unconscious or intrapsychic aspects of the self, and more on the conscious, rational processes that shape behavior (Beck, 1979; Ellis & Harper, 1975). Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) - B.F. Skinner (1904-1990): ABA, based on the work of Skinner and other behaviorists, sees the self as a product of environmental contingencies and reinforcement histories. ABA focuses on observable behaviors rather than internal states or processes, and the goal of therapy is to modify behavior through the systematic application of reinforcement and punishment. ABA has been widely used in the treatment of autism and other developmental disorders, but has been criticized for its lack of attention to the inner experience of the self (Skinner, 1953; Lovaas, 1987). What is Self? One of the key challenges facing psychotherapy today is the lack of a coherent concept of self. The self is a complex and dynamic entity that is shaped by a range of internal and external factors, including our experiences, relationships, and cultural context (Baumeister, 1987). Unfortunately, many contemporary models of therapy fail to adequately capture this complexity, instead relying on simplistic and reductionistic notions of the self as a collection of symptoms or behaviors to be modified (Wachtel, 1991). To develop a more coherent and holistic concept of self, psychotherapy must draw on insights from a range of disciplines, including psychology, philosophy, anthropology, and the humanities (Sass & Parnas, 2003). This requires a willingness to engage with the messy and often paradoxical nature of the human experience, recognizing that the self is not a fixed entity but rather a constantly evolving process of becoming (Gendlin, 1978). The psychoanalyst Carl Jung's concept of the self as the central archetype, connected to the divine and the greater unconscious, offers a useful starting point for this endeavor. Jung believed that by making the unconscious conscious and dealing with ego rigidity, individuals could embody a deeper sense of purpose and connection to the universe (Jung, 1959). While we may not need to fully embrace Jung's metaphysical language, his emphasis on the dynamic interplay between conscious and unconscious processes, as well as the importance of symbol, dream, and myth in shaping the self, remains highly relevant today (Hillman, 1975). Other approaches, such as Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy and somatic experiencing, also offer valuable insights into the nature of the self. IFS sees the self as a core of compassion, curiosity, and confidence that is surrounded by protective parts that arise in response to trauma and other challenges. By working with these parts and fostering greater integration and self-leadership, individuals can develop a more coherent and authentic sense of self (Schwartz, 1995). Similarly, somatic experiencing emphasizes the role of the body in shaping the self, recognizing that trauma and other experiences are stored not just in the mind but also in the muscles, nerves, and other physical structures (Levine, 1997). Models like IFS, somatic experiencing, and lifespan integration are appealing because they see the self as a dynamic ecosystem that is always evolving and striving for integration and actualization (Boon et al., 2011; Ogden et al., 2006; Pace, 2012). They don't try to label and categorize everything, recognizing that sometimes we need to just sit with feelings and sensations without fully understanding them intellectually. Lifespan integration in particular views the self as a continuum of moments threaded together like pearls on a necklace. Traumatic experiences can cause certain "pearls" or ego states to become frozen in time, disconnected from the flow of the self-narrative. By imaginally revisiting these moments and "smashing them together" with resource states, lifespan integration aims to re-integrate the self across time, fostering a more coherent and flexible identity (Pace, 2012). In contrast, the more behavioral and manualized approaches like CBT and ABA have a much more limited and problematic view. They see the self as just a collection of cognitions and learned behaviors, minimizing the role of the unconscious and treating people more like programmable robots (Shedler, 2010). If taken to an extreme, this is frankly offensive and damaging. There has to be room for the parts of the self that we can feel and intuit but not fully articulate (Stern, 2004). Ultimately, developing a coherent concept of self requires a willingness to sit with the tensions and paradoxes of the human experience, recognizing that the self is always in communication with the world around us, and that our sense of who we are is constantly being shaped by implicit memory and other unconscious processes (Schore & Schore, 2008). It requires remaining open to uncertainty and realizing that the self is never static or finished, but always dynamically unfolding (Bromberg, 1996). Good therapy helps people get in touch with their authentic self, not just impose a set of techniques to modify surface-level symptoms (Fosha et al., 2009). Understanding Implicit Memory Another critical challenge facing psychotherapy today is the lack of a shared language and understanding of implicit memory. Implicit memory refers to the unconscious, automatic, and often somatic ways in which our past experiences shape our present thoughts, feelings, and behaviors (Schacter et al., 1993). While the concept of implicit memory has a long history in psychotherapy, dating back to Freud's notion of the unconscious and Jung's idea of the collective unconscious, it remains poorly understood and often overlooked in contemporary practice (Kihlstrom, 1987). This is due in part to the dominance of cognitive-behavioral approaches, which tend to focus on explicit, conscious processes rather than the deeper, more intuitive and embodied aspects of the self (Bucci, 1997). To effectively address the role of implicit memory in psychological distress and personal growth, psychotherapy must develop a shared language and framework for understanding and working with these unconscious processes (Greenberg, 2002). This requires a willingness to engage with the body and the somatic experience, recognizing that our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are deeply rooted in our physical being (van der Kolk, 2014). One way to think about implicit memory is as a kind of "photoshop filter" that our brain is constantly running, even when we are not consciously aware of it. Just as the center of our visual field is filled in by our brain based on the surrounding context, our implicit memories are constantly shaping our perceptions and reactions to the world around us, even when we are not consciously aware of them. This is why it is so important for therapists to be attuned to the subtle cues and signals that patients give off, both verbally and nonverbally. A skilled therapist can often sense the presence of implicit memories and unconscious processes long before the patient is consciously aware of them, and can use this information to guide the therapeutic process in a more effective and meaningful direction (Schore, 2012). At the same time, it is important to recognize that implicit memories are not always negative or pathological. In fact, many of our most cherished and meaningful experiences are encoded in implicit memory, shaping our sense of self and our relationships with others in profound and often unconscious ways (Fosshage, 2005). The goal of therapy, then, is not necessarily to eliminate or "fix" implicit memories, but rather to help individuals develop a more conscious and intentional relationship with them, so that they can be integrated into a more coherent and authentic sense of self (Stern, 2004). The Future of the Unconscious Many of the most interesting thinkers in the history of psychology understood this symbolic dimension of implicit memory, even if their specific theories needed refinement. Freud recognized the dynamic interplay of conscious and unconscious processes, and the way that repressed material could manifest in dreams, symptoms, and relational patterns (Freud, trans. 1989). Jung saw the unconscious as not just a repository of repressed personal material, but a deep well of collective wisdom and creative potential, populated by universal archetypes and accessed through dream, myth, and active imagination (Jung, 1968). Jung urged individuals to engage in a lifelong process of "individuation," differentiating the self from the collective while also integrating the conscious and unconscious aspects of the psyche (Jung, 1964). Reich connected chronic muscular tensions or "character armor" to blocked emotions and neurotic conflicts, pioneering body-based interventions aimed at restoring the free flow of life energy (Reich, 1980). While some of Reich's later work veered into pseudoscience, his core insights about the somatic basis of psychological experience were hugely influential on subsequent generations of clinicians (Young, 2006). More recently, emerging models such as sensorimotor psychotherapy (Ogden & Fisher, 2015), accelerated experiential dynamic psychotherapy (AEDP; Fosha, 2000), and eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR; Shapiro, 2017) aim to access and integrate implicit memories through body-based and imagistic techniques. By working with posture, sensation, movement, and breath, these approaches help patients bring nonverbal, affective material into conscious awareness and narrative coherence. Process-oriented therapies such as Arnold Mindell's process work (Mindell, 1985) offer another compelling framework for engaging implicit memory. Mindell suggests that the unconscious communicates through "channels" such as vision, audition, proprioception, kinesthesia, and relationship. By unfolding the process in each channel and following the flow of "sentient essence," therapists can help patients access and integrate implicit memories and in turn catalyze psychological and somatic healing. These contemporary approaches build on the insights of earlier clinicians while offering new maps and methods for navigating the realm of implicit memory. They point towards an understanding of the self as an ever-evolving matrix of conscious and unconscious, cognitive and somatic, personal and transpersonal processes. Engaging implicit memory is not about pathologizing the unconscious so much as learning its unique language and honoring its hidden wisdom. At the same time, this is tricky terrain to navigate, personally and professionally. As therapist and patient venture into the uncharted waters of the unconscious, it is crucial to maintain an attitude of humility, compassion, and ethical integrity (Stein, 2006). We must be mindful of the power dynamics and transference/countertransference currents that can arise in any therapeutic relationship, and work to create a safe, boundaried space for healing and transformation (Barnett et al., 2007). There is also a risk of getting lost in the fascinating world of the unconscious and losing sight of external reality. While depth psychology and experiential therapies offer valuable tools for self-exploration and meaning-making, they are not a replacement for practical skills, behavioral changes, and real-world action. We must be careful not to fall into the trap of "spiritual bypassing," using esoteric practices to avoid the hard work of embodying our insights and values in daily life (Welwood, 2000). Ultimately, the future of psychotherapy lies in integrating the best of what has come before while remaining open to new discoveries and directions. By combining scientific rigor with clinical artistry, cognitive understanding with experiential depth, and technical skill with ethical care, we can continue to expand our understanding of the self and the transformative potential of the therapeutic relationship. As we navigate the uncharted territories of the 21st century and beyond, we will need maps and methods that honor the full complexity and mystery of the human experience. Engaging with the unconscious and implicit dimensions of memory is not a luxury but a necessity if we are to rise to the challenges of our time with creativity, resilience, and wisdom. May we have the courage to venture into the depths, and the humility to be transformed by what we find there. Empowering Individuals to Be Themselves The ultimate goal of psychotherapy, in my view, is to empower individuals to become more effective at being themselves in the world and, in turn, better at transforming the world for the better. This requires a fundamental shift in the way that we think about mental health and well-being, moving beyond a narrow focus on symptom reduction and towards a more holistic and integrative approach that recognizes the interconnectedness of mind, body, and spirit. To achieve this goal, psychotherapy must embrace a range of approaches and techniques that are tailored to the unique needs and experiences of each individual. This may include somatic therapies that work with the body to release trauma and promote healing, such as somatic experiencing, sensorimotor psychotherapy, or EMDR (Levine, 1997; Ogden & Fisher, 2015; Shapiro, 2017). It may also include depth psychologies that explore the unconscious and archetypal dimensions of the psyche, such as Jungian analysis, psychosynthesis, or archetypal psychology (Jung, 1968; Assagioli, 1965; Hillman, 1975). And it may include humanistic and experiential approaches that emphasize the inherent worth and potential of each person, such as person-centered therapy, gestalt therapy, or existential psychotherapy (Rogers, 1995; Perls et al., 1951; Yalom, 1980). At the same time, psychotherapy must also be grounded in a deep understanding of the social, cultural, and political contexts in which individuals live and work. This requires a willingness to engage with issues of power, privilege, and oppression, recognizing that mental health and well-being are intimately connected to the broader structures and systems that shape our lives (Prilleltensky, 1997). It also requires a recognition that the goal of therapy is not simply to help individuals adapt to the status quo, but rather to empower them to become agents of change in their own lives and in the world around them (Freire, 1970). Therapists as Agents of the Post-Secular Sacred One way to think about this is through the lens of what depth psychologist David Tacey calls the "post-secular sacred" (Tacey, 2004). Tacey argues that we are moving into a new era of spirituality that is grounded in a deep respect for science and reason, but also recognizes the importance of myth, symbol, and the unconscious in shaping our experience of the world. In this view, the goal of therapy is not to strip away our illusions and defenses in order to reveal some kind of objective truth, but rather to help individuals develop a more authentic and meaningful relationship with the mystery and complexity of existence. This requires a willingness to sit with the discomfort and uncertainty that often accompanies the process of growth and transformation. It also requires a recognition that the path to wholeness and healing is not always a straight line, but rather a winding and often circuitous journey that involves confronting our deepest fears and vulnerabilities (Jung, 1959). Therapists of Agents of the Post Secular Sacred Riddle in the Garden by Robert Penn Warren My mind is intact, but the shapes of the world change, the peach has released the bough and at last makes full confession, its pudeur had departed like peach-fuzz wiped off, and We now know how the hot sweet- ness of flesh and the juice-dark hug the rough peach-pit, we know its most suicidal yearnings, it wants to suffer extremely, it Loves God, and I warn you, do not touch that plum, it will burn you, a blister will be on your finger, and you will put the finger to your lips for relief—oh, do be careful not to break that soft Gray bulge of blister like fruit-skin, for exposing that inwardness will increase your pain, for you are part of this world. You think I am speaking in riddles. But I am not, for The world means only itself. In the image that Penn Warren creates in "Riddle in the Garden" is a labyrinth leading back to the birth of humans in the garden of Eden.  Life itself is a swelling of inflammation from a wound or a need in both blisters and in peaches. You cannot have one part of the process without accepting all of it. The swelling in the growth of the fruit is also the swelling in the growth of a blister of pain. The peach must swell and become a sweet tempting blister or else no one would eat it and expose the "inwardness" of the seed to grow more trees.  exists to be eaten to die. We eat the peach to grow the next one. Not to touch the “suicidal” peach is not to touch life itself. For to live is to be hurt and to grow. To touch the peach is to become part of the world like Adam and Eve found out. It hurts it blisters us turning us into fruit.  For Penn Warren it is the separation of the self from the world of divine connection with nature that creates our need for meaning. This need is the reason that patients come to therapy. God tells us that “I am the lord your God” but Penn Warren tells us “I am not”. For “The world means only itself”. This process only has the meaning that we allow ourselves to give it. This is not a riddle, Penn Warren tells us.  It is only something we have to deal with but cannot not solve. The world means only itself. There is no gimmick or solution to the problem of being human.  In other words, the process of becoming more fully ourselves is not always easy or comfortable. It requires a willingness to confront the pain and suffering that is inherent in the human condition, and to recognize that growth and healing often involve an alchemical kind of death and rebirth. But it is precisely through this process of facing our fears and vulnerabilities that we can begin to develop a more authentic and meaningful relationship with ourselves, with others, and with the world around us. Ultimately, the goal of psychotherapy is not to provide answers or solutions, but rather to create a space in which individuals can begin to ask deeper questions about the nature of their existence and their place in the world. It is to help individuals develop the tools and capacities they need to navigate the complexities of life with greater courage, compassion, and wisdom. And it is to empower individuals to become more effective at being themselves in the world, so that they can contribute to the greater whole and help to create a more just, equitable, and sustainable future for all. The Future of Psychotherapy The corporatization of healthcare and academia poses a serious threat to the future of psychotherapy, undermining its ability to effectively address the complex realities of the human experience. To remain relevant and effective in the face of these challenges, the field must embrace a more holistic and integrative approach that recognizes the interconnectedness of the mind, body, and spirit. This requires a renewed commitment to developing a coherent concept of self, a shared language and understanding of implicit memory, and a vision of psychotherapy as a means of empowering individuals to become more effective at being themselves in the world and, in turn, better at transforming the world for the better. It also requires a willingness to engage with the full complexity and paradox of the human experience, recognizing that growth and healing often involve a kind of death and rebirth, and that the path to wholeness is not always a straight line. As the psychologist Carl Jung once wrote, "The privilege of a lifetime is to become who you truly are." Psychotherapy and the Dialectic of Self and World As we have explored throughout this essay, the self does not exist in a vacuum, but is always in dynamic interaction with the world around it. Our sense of who we are, what we value, and what is possible for us is shaped by a complex interplay of internal and external factors, from our earliest experiences of attachment and attunement to the broader social, cultural, and political contexts in which we are embedded. In many ways, psychotherapy can be seen as a process of exploring and working with the dialectical tension between self and world, between our innermost longings, fears, and aspirations and the often harsh realities of the environments we find ourselves in. When we enter therapy, we bring with us not only our own unique histories, personality structures, and ways of being, but also the internalized messages, expectations, and constraints of the world around us. For many individuals, these internalized messages and constraints can feel suffocating, limiting their sense of possibility and agency in the world. They may find themselves feeling stuck, trapped, or disconnected from their authentic selves, playing roles and wearing masks that no longer fit who they really are. In the face of external pressures to conform, to achieve, to fit in, the self can become fragmented, disempowered, or lost. The task of psychotherapy, then, is to help individuals rediscover and reclaim a sense of self that feels vital, authentic, and empowered, while also developing the skills and capacities needed to navigate the complexities of the world with greater flexibility, resilience, and integrity. This requires a delicate balance of supportive and challenging interventions, of validating the individual's unique experience while also gently questioning and expanding their assumptions about what is possible. On one end of the spectrum, an overly supportive or myopic approach to therapy can run the risk of enabling individuals to remain stuck in limiting patterns and beliefs, reinforcing a sense of helplessness or dependence on the therapist. While providing a warm, empathic, and nonjudgmental space is essential for building trust and safety in the therapeutic relationship, it is not sufficient for fostering real growth and change. Individuals need to be challenged to step outside their comfort zones, to experiment with new ways of being and relating, and to take responsibility for their choices and actions in the world. On the other end of the spectrum, an overly challenging or confrontational approach to therapy can be experienced as invalidating, shaming, or even retraumatizing, particularly for individuals with histories of abuse, neglect, or marginalization. Pushing individuals to "toughen up," to adapt to oppressive or toxic environments, or to simply accept the "reality" of their situation without questioning or resisting it can lead to a kind of false or forced adaptation, a loss of self that is no less harmful than remaining stuck. The key, then, is to find a middle path between these extremes, one that honors the individual's inherent worth, agency, and potential while also recognizing the very real constraints and challenges of the world they inhabit. This requires a deep understanding of the ways in which power, privilege, and oppression shape our experiences and identities, as well as a willingness to grapple with the existential questions of meaning, purpose, and authenticity that arise when we confront the gap between who we are and who we feel we ought to be. In practice, this might involve helping individuals to: Develop a clearer and more coherent sense of self, one that integrates the various parts of their personality, history, and identity in a way that feels authentic and meaningful to them. Identify and challenge limiting beliefs, assumptions, and patterns of behavior that keep them stuck or disconnected from their true desires and values. Cultivate greater self-awareness, self-compassion, and self-acceptance, learning to embrace the full range of their thoughts, feelings, and experiences with curiosity and kindness. Develop the skills and capacities needed to communicate effectively, set healthy boundaries, and navigate relationships and social situations with greater ease and confidence. Explore and experiment with new ways of being and relating in the world, taking risks and stepping outside their comfort zones in service of their growth and healing. Engage critically and creatively with the social, cultural, and political contexts that shape their lives, developing a sense of empowerment, agency, and social responsibility. Connect with a deeper sense of meaning, purpose, and spirituality, one that transcends the ego and connects them to something greater than themselves. Ultimately, the goal of psychotherapy is not simply to help individuals adapt to the world as it is, but to empower them to become active agents of change, both in their own lives and in the larger systems and structures that shape our collective reality. By developing a stronger, more integrated, and more authentic sense of self, individuals can begin to challenge and transform the limiting beliefs, oppressive power dynamics, and dehumanizing narratives that keep us all stuck and disconnected from our shared humanity. In this sense, psychotherapy is not just a personal journey of healing and self-discovery, but a deeply political and moral enterprise, one that calls us to envision and create a world that is more just, compassionate, and sustainable for all. As therapists, we have a unique opportunity and responsibility to support individuals in this process, to bear witness to their pain and their resilience, and to help them find the courage, clarity, and creativity needed to live a life of purpose, integrity, and connection. As the existential psychiatrist Viktor Frankl once wrote, "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." By creating a space for individuals to explore and expand their capacity to choose, to respond to the world with authenticity and agency, psychotherapy can play a vital role in the ongoing dialectic of self and world, of personal and collective transformation. 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Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight, where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmine Loupis, and today's guest is Michele, an Accredited Mental Health Social Worker, Accredited EMDR Consultant, Clinical Resource Therapy Trainer as well as partner in private practice and Director of EMDR Relational and Training at Seva House in the Hunter region. Michele has worked extensively with children, young people and adults who have experienced complex trauma as well as supporting young people who have caused harm to others. Michele provides EMDR Consultation and Clinical Supervision to professionals and develops and facilitates training in EMDR and Resource Therapy.  Links to resources mentioned in this week's episode: Michele's Clinical Practice – www.sevahouse.com.au Michele's EMDR Consultation Practice – www.emdrelational.com EMDR and Resource Therapy Training – www.sevatraining.com.au Gabor Maté – Authenticity vs Attachment - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3bynimi8HQ & https://redefineschool.com/gabor-on-authenticity-attachment/ Linda Thai's training - https://collectivelyrooted.thinkific.com EMDR – Notice that Podcast - https://www.instagram.com/notice_that_podcast/ Arnold Mindell - http://www.aamindell.net & https://online.processwork.edu Earth Based Psychology – book by Arnold Mindell Metaphysical Anatomy – book by Evette Rose Unlocking the Emotional Brain – book by Bruce Ecker Polyvagal Informed EMDR – book by Rebecca Kase Treating Trauma and Addiction with the Felt Sense – book by Jan Winhall The Others Within Us – book by Robert Falconer Every Memory Deserves Respect EMDR – book by Michael Baldwin The Art and Science of EMDR – book by Rotem Brayer Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing (EMDR) 3rd Edition – book by Francine Shapiro Rivers Way – book by Arnold Mindell The Wisdom of your Dreams – book by Jeremy Taylor Our Polyvagal World – book by Stephen Porges Gabor Maté's In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts - https://drgabormate.com/book/in-the-realm-of-hungry-ghosts/ Social Work Spotlight podcast episode with Amy (Michele's colleague at Seva house) - https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/uRRwl1dVNFb This episode's transcript can be viewed here:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R0vp9ui0legCso99FYpO3xJ9jreZ3_HcjMNYKPzmVX8/edit?usp=sharing --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/socialworkspotlight/message

Have you reached the 2023 holiday season and wondered why you're feeling so exhausted, tired and spent?Luckily, Paul has been thinking a lot about this problem many of you are facing this holiday season and has some strategies that can help you recharge your batteries and give yourself the gift of good health in this special Living 4D podcast.TimestampsExtractive capitalism. (7:59)Spirituality: A progressive expansion of a connection to our surroundings or to a greater whole. (20:10)Are you asking questions about everything? (29:00)Two points of sentience. (36:03)Knowing your dream helps you identify why you may be spent physically and emotionally. (46:13)Eros and agape. (1:02:14)“Focus first on what is your dream and how to create safety and security by managing your 4 Doctors.” (1:10:30)Are you in a state of fear? (1:22:43)“Matter is materialization of God's own dream which is existence itself.” (1:28:54)Rudolf Steiner's conception of the Cross and what it means for us. (1:37:21)The four quadrants that reveal how we become spent. (1:53:21)Your people and your stories/interactions with them. (2:00:03)Living a healthy life by paying attention to the numbers. (2:06:11)ResourcesThe work of Adi Shankara, Amy and Arnold Mindell, Dr. Dan Siegel, Edward Edinger and Bruce LiptonThe Web of Meaning: Integrating Science and Traditional Wisdom to Find Our Place in the Universe by Jeremy LentPaul's Living 4D series of Evolve podcasts starting with Evolve Yourself PhysicallyPaul's solo podcasts on Ancient Wisdom, The People Who Changed My Life and Creating Real HealthThe Invisible Rainbow: A History of Electricity and Life by Arthur FirstenbergFind more resources for this episode on our website.Thanks to our awesome sponsors:PaleovalleyBiOptimizers US and BiOptimizers UK PAUL10Organifi CHEK20CHEK InsideWild PasturesNedPique LifeWe may earn commissions from qualifying purchases using affiliate links.

Layman meets with Dr. Karen Jaenke, a holistic educator and dreamworker, to talk about the somatic dimensions of dreamwork, the nature of the subtle body, the importance of dreamwork for navigating the metacrisis, and her unique integration of the insights and practices of Eugene Gendlin, Arnold Mindell, and Robert Bosnak. Dr. Jaenke is the former Chair of the Consciousness and Transformative Studies program and former Director of the Ecotherapy Certificate program at John F. Kennedy University. From 2001-2008, she served as Dissertation Director and Core Faculty at the Institute of Imaginal Studies. Currently an Executive Editor of ReVision: Journal of Consciousness and Transformation, she has edited and published journals on the topics of Imaginal Psychology, Shamanism and the Wounded West, and Earth Dreaming, as well as numerous articles on these topics. In 2000, she founded Dreamhut Consulting to offer consulting services for dissertation and thesis writing, dreamwork, hypnotherapy and mentoring. Her dissertation was titled: Personal Dreamscape as Ancestral Landscape. Her creative vision synthesizes dreamwork, indigenous ways of knowing, subtle body awareness and Gaian consciousness. Dr. Jaenke's professional website www.dreamhut.org Follow The Integral Stage on Fathom! https://hello.fathom.fm/ As always, remember to like, subscribe, and support The Integral Stage on Patreon to make more of these conversations possible! https://www.patreon.com/theintegralstage

Dawn Menken, PhD. has been working in the field of psychology and facilitator development for over 35 years. She is an internationally respected educator, therapist, leadership coach, and conflict resolution specialist. She co-founded the Process Work Institute, a not-for-profit graduate school dedicated to the training of facilitators, where she co-created its Masters's programs and served as academic dean for more than a decade. She is the author of Facilitating a More Union: A Guide for Politicians and Leaders, which offers a radical and innovative approach to political discourse. She is also the author of the award-winning book Raising Parents Raising Kids: Hands-on Wisdom for the Next Generation. In all of her endeavors, she is moved to improve social discourse and inspire more meaningful civic engagement. Join Traci and Dawn as they explore the foundations of process work and how it can help us shift out of polarization.  Dawn reads the most beautiful speech she would give to the Charlottesville rioters. In this speech she overcomes her terror as a Jewish woman and models how we all can confront our addiction to “other” by speaking both ferociously and compassionately.   Episode Timeline [00:09] Intro  [0:58] Meet Dawn [4:19] Professor Ben Thompson introduces Dawn to Arnold Mindell's work during a class on the books of Carlos Castaneda about the Yaqui Mexican Indian Sorcerer, Don Juan Matus [9:29] What is the Dreambody? [11:47] Working On Body Symptoms [17:25] Norms or how we “should” be and busting out of stereotypes [21:11] The embodied unconscious [25:14] Otherizing and polarizing as a global human tendency [31:56] Dawn's speech to the white nationalists in Charlottesville [36:09] Breaking our own addiction to othering people [43:32] Outro Resources Mentioned Facilitating a More Perfect Union (Book) Raising Parents Raising Kids (Book) The Process Work Institute   Standout Quotes “...it's more about trying to explore what is emergent and trying to happen in you.” (Dawn) “I want to add the idea that we don't just have a platform and advocate for our one-sided views, but the facilitator or the leader must position herself also as a facilitator because you're not just leading one section of the world. We have to find a way to get along and to facilitate dialog.” (Dawn) “It's about the human tendency to otherize someone.” (Dawn) “This whole idea of otherizing is about how we also, as individuals, marginalize different parts of ourselves. Wholeness is really about connecting and getting on with that with which we marginalize internally, in our relationships, and in the world at large. (Dawn) “With all my years on this planet Earth, I am more interested in my larger goals of democracy and people getting along.” (Dawn) “...how to reach out to a side that you feel is so repulsive to you, and at the same time, take a stand. How to do both at the same time.” (Dawn) “I want to tell those protesters that deep down you have more in common with those whom you battle. You're looking for your place, that precious feeling of belonging and pride. (Dawn) It is the deepest human longing for all people who risk everything and flee violent circumstances to reside in these United States of America. There is room enough for all of us. (Dawn) We all need to feel our pride and sense of home without denigrating others. It is the only way forward. Feel pride in your vision to live in a country that insists on freedom and belonging for all people. (Dawn) Being one-sided is very addictive. If you have a humanistic view, if you have a view of people and community, the deepest religions talk about that. If you want to connect, if you want to understand and get along, then you have to go beyond your one-sided position. (Dawn)   Connect: Find | Sidewalk Talk  At sidewalk-talk.org On Instagram: @sidewalktalkorg On Twitter: @sidewalktalkorg   Find | Traci Ruble At Traciruble.com On Instagram: @TraciRubleMFT On Twitter: @TraciRubleMFT On Facebook: @TraciRubleMFT   Find | Dr. Dawn Menken At www.dawnmenken.com On Instagram: @processworkinstitute   SUBSCRIBE TO THIS PODCAST On Apple Podcasts On Google Podcasts On Spotify On YouTube

Today's episode follows on from the last (Episode 20) on the myth of Narcissus & Echo. This week I'm joined by an old friend and mentor - Margie Templeton. Margie spent 35 years in New York as a practicing psychotherapist beginning her career in the 1960s. She received sessions and guidance from Arnold Mindell and Max Schuuback: two of the early pioneers of Process Work.We discuss Margie's journey from growing up in the 1940s and 50s until her graduation from high school in the mid 60s and the options available for women at that time. Her path led her into studying psychology and then discovering the creative, artistic, eccentric world of Process Oriented Psychotherapy.At 32:25 we discuss Narcissism from a clinical, personal and social context with the intention of deepening our understanding of the phenomenon. It's a deep, winding and enriching conversation.-------------------------------------------------Click to become a PatronWhat's that mesmerising soundtrack?  That's Marlia Coeur: Spotify | YouTube.

(Health Series)“Our steadfast faith in our limitations keeps us operating at only a fraction of our true potential.” - Jason Pickard Most people, when they discover their passion and purpose, do all that they can to become a master of it.  But what if you grow up passionate about so many things because your real interest is in understanding the nature of Reality and in exceeding known limits of human possibilities? Jason Pickard knew, as a young teen, that he wanted to be a trader on Wall St. He quickly rose through the ranks to become one of the Top 30 traders under 30 years old. But after achieving unprecedented success on Wall St., while losing his health and almost his life in the process, he began pursuing his interests in yoga, martial arts, the visual arts, music, philosophy, meditation, and the healing arts –– from an Eastern, Western, and Indigenous perspective –– with some of the leading living masters in each of these fields. Since retiring in 2019 from his position as partner and portfolio manager at Tudor Investment Corp, one of the world's most esteemed hedge funds, Jason's primary focus has been his work in private counseling and coaching. He also works with businesses, groups, and other organizations as a group process facilitator. His specific passion is to help improve human performance and optimization by supporting people to find purposefulness and meaning in all the significant events of their lives.Jason is a member of the board of the Contemplative Sciences Center at the University of Virginia. Over the last five years, he has led Pickard Fellowship retreats that give undergraduate business school students an opportunity to learn wellness and mindfulness so that they stay conscious and healthy while pursuing their vision in the business world.  He is a Holistic Life Coach Level 2 at the CHEK Institute, and has worked privately with Paul Chek for over 10 years, as his longest running private client.  He is currently training at the Process Work Institute in Portland Oregon with many senior faculty members and therapists, and is pursuing a Diplomate diploma.  Process Work, developed by Dr. Arnold Mindell, is a rich and varied way of perceiving the world, people, and groups.  It is an innovative and highly successful methodology for working with individuals, couples, families, groups, communities and organizations.Jason lives in upstate NY with his beloved wife Kara and his three children.Jason's Email - jpickard62@gmail.com#BenStewart #JasonPickard #Optimazation #Wellness #Solutons Ben Stewart Podcast strives to offer awareness and solutions to a rapidly evolving world, while building community… Produced live, Thursdays at 5:00 PM EST. Cohost/Producer: IG @Gordon_CummingsJoin our kickass Discord community! - https://discord.gg/7QadgxEK4zSupport & Access Exclusive Content!https://www.benjosephstewart.com/plans-pricingCheck out my latest documentaries -  “Awake In The Darkness” - https://www.aubreymarcus.com/"DMT QUEST" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My95s6ZryPgVisit https://www.BenJosephStewart.com/ to get more involved.Check out my Gaia shows "Psychedelica" & "Limitless" with a free trial. - https://www.gaia.com/invite/join?rfd=AGvFiE&utm_source=iafMake sure to hit the like button and Follow me on:Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BenJosephStewartMinds: https://www.minds.com/BenJosephStewart/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/BenJosephStewart/Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/c-1044023Twitter: https://twitter.com/BenJosephStewBitChute: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/aanpGqOQt8ZX/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@benstewartofficialOdysse: https://odysee.com/@BenStewart:6

In this episode, Katie is talking with CRR Global co-founder and CEO Marita Fridjhon about curiosity and quantum flirts. Building off their last conversation in which they explored chasing the speed of change, they explore how quantum flirts- or tiny synchronistic signals in the world around us- can help us to slow down and see situations differently. The term, ‘Quantum flirt' comes from the work of Arnold Mindell, to describe the most fleeting perceptions. It's called a quantum flirt since it's short-lived and has the feel of the universe winking at you! Across the episode Marita and Katie discuss the power of a “yes and…” mindset, using distractions in the world around us as a way into relationship, dancing with whatever emerges, and seeing the abundance in all things.Marita Fridjhon is co-owner and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.For over 18 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a timeWe believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Indem wir uns von der Welt dabei helfen lassen, unser ganzes Selbst zu werden, helfen wir selber der Welt ganz zu werden. - So bschreibt der Prozess-Psychologe Arnold Mindell unser Verflochtensein mit der über uns hinausgehenden Welt. Im Ansatz der prozessorientierten Psychologie nach Arnold Mindell werden psychologische und physikalische Dynamiken nicht als grundsätzlich getrennt behandelt. Als Frucht eines langen Übungsweges, so stellt es auch Hermann Hesse in seinem Buch Siddharta dar, kann sich in uns das Bewusstsein der Einheit allen Lebens entwickeln. Diesen ewigen Aspekt Allverbundenheit der Großen Welt sollten wir, auch mitten im Engagement, nicht aus den Augen verlieren. LITERATUR: - Arnold Mindell. Der Weg durch den Sturm. (Orig.: The Eye of Turbulence) Via Nova, 1997 - Siddhartha: eine indische Dichtung by Hermann Hesse https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2499 Um für junge Erwachsene den Aufenthalt im ToGenJi zu ermöglichen, bitten wir um eine Spende. Sie finden die Kontodaten/Paypal auf unserer Website http://choka-sangha.de/kontakt/spenden/ Herzlichen Dank

This week I'm joined by Christina Nielsen, the founder of the Metavision Institute of NSW, Australia. Metavision is where I received my training in Process Oriented Psychotherapy - a holistic style that combines the understandings of reality from Quantum Physics with Jungian Psychodynamics.Our conversation weaves in the idea of the life-myth of the individual having a secret connection with the mythic themes of the times. We visit Christina's childhood memories with Bilbo Baggins the dog, as well as an early childhood dream, to see how the seed of Metavision was expressing itself from her very earliest moments on earth.Christina is a wealth of knowledge, wisdom and experience. She has extensively studied Chinese Medicine, Steiner's Spiritual Science and Arnold Mindell's Process Work. Her life and work display what's possible from a holistic perspective when it comes to the health of ourselves and our connection with our living planet.An old teacher of mine once said to me, 'your message to the world is the life you live.' On reflection from our interview I was most moved by the living theme in Christina's life of the importance of combining cleverness with wisdom, and how the two are neither mutually exclusive nor intrinsically implied.Find out more about Christina here.And Metavision here.There's a moment in the interview where Christina doesn't quite remember the name of a book that explores the antithesis of 'Lord of the Flies'. That book is Humankind: A Hopeful History.Thanks for listening in. If you enjoy this and want the podcast to continue doing its thing, please consider becoming a Patron for just $5 a month.

Are you ready to wake up, grow up, show up and get involved in the world before the Kings and Queens who own more influence than ever take over?Learn about which archetype represents the life you're living right now and how to move forward in Paul's latest solo podcast this week on Living 4D.Be sure to stay to the end to listen to the song, Wake Up: Your Soul Knows What It Is Here to Do, created by Ian Morris for this episode.Show NotesWhat is an archetype? (9:41)The production of consciousness. (13:12)The child stage. (20:50)The warrior stage. (34:16)A fork in the road: Taking the Hero's Journey. (39:52)Becoming a King or Queen requires high levels of mastery and discipline. (55:05)Where are the rebels? (1:08:32)The Wise Man or Woman path. (1:18:03)The punchline. (1:40:03)How to save your children. (2:03:12)“There's 85 Kings and Queens in the world and 7 billion of us.” (2:10:15)ResourcesThe Collected Works of Carl JungThe work of Edward Edinger, Ken Wilbur, Arnold Mindell, John Archibald Wheeler, Edward Bernays, Manly Palmer Hall, Adam Smith, Chris Hardy, Walter Russell and E.O. WilsonThe Biology of Transcendence by Joseph Chilton PearceThe Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism and This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs. The Climate by Naomi KleinTao Te Ching: The Book of Meaning and Life by Richard WilhelmWhen God Was a Woman by Merlin StoneMore resources for this episode are available on our website.Thanks to our awesome sponsors: Organifi (save 20 percent on your purchase by using the code CHEK20 at checkout), Paleovalley (save 15 percent on your purchase by using the code chek15 at checkout), BiOptimizers (save 10 percent on your purchase by using the code Paul10 at checkout), Cymbiotika (save 15 percent on your purchase by using the code CHEK15 at checkout) and Essential Oil Wizardry (save 10 percent on your purchase by using the code living4d at checkout).As an Amazon Associate, we earn commissions from qualifying purchases.

Cómo afrontar esta situación de aislamiento que estamos viviendo acompañando a nuestros hijos de una forma saludable no es nada fácil. Es complicado no vivir en el futuro imaginado y vivir en el presente. Vivir en un futuro imaginado, como ponernos en la situación de contraer la enfermedad, que una persona que queremos enferme, o cómo me recuperaré económicamente, nos saca del presente. Esto es un trabajo diario que ahora más que nunca tenemos que hacer. Estar en el presente, vivir en el aquí y ahora. Cómo vas a vivir tu día a día, es tu elección, y esta es una oportunidad para hacer las cosas de otro modo y de enseñarle a nuestros hijos a vivir la adversidad desde otro lugar. Según Arnold Mindell, existen 3 niveles de realidad: El primero sería la realidad consensual. El segundo nivel sería el del Mundo de los Sueños. El tercer nivel de la realidad, es el de la Esencia. SI quieres saber cuáles son en cuál de ellos estás viviendo, no te pierdas este episodio.

Edmund Cross is a trainer and facilitator, and specialist in creating developmental spaces for individuals and teams. After a childhood in Northern Ireland, Edmund attended the University of Sussex where he studied French, and learnt to identify patterns and understand systems. He then trained as a nurse in Sheffield. He says “it taught me about the practicality of intervening in people's lives.” Partly as a result of a back injury he moved into workingwith primary care teams on sexual health. After several years with the local health authority he worked at the University of Sheffield. Since being made redundant in a reorganisation he has been working independently – this compelled him to learn how not to be part of an organisation and a hierarchy. Edmund has a reputation for being able to sit with people while they resolve conflict. He puts it down to several skills he has picked up on his journey: sticking with people when they tell you something important, an understanding of rank and power, working with issues as they arise in the moment, and leaning into matters rather than shying away. He says “power underlies everything and we need to talk about it.” All of our relationships have an element of power in them. We experience power very early on, but we don't talk about it: “it becomes invisible to us, and yet it shapes everything.” Once people have the tools and space to talk about, it becomes easier to surface the associated issues. Over the past five or six years Edmund has developed a way of working that involves introducing people to models, such as the Johari window and the window of tolerance, and then encouraging them to apply them to the business of the group as it arises in the moment. He seeks to help people to trust their own thoughts and emotions. Edmund is an enthusiast for ‘not knowing': when you approach a problem with an open mind, more possibilities emerge. He adopts an orientation of curiosity and exploration. He finds David Snowden's Cynefin framework helpful in this respect. Edmund has a daughter with a medical condition. Before her birth, Edmund envisaged a predictable future, afterwards he was dealing with uncertainty and crises as they came up. It taught him to live in the moment and give things his best shot as they arose. Edmund's proudest achievement in his career concerns when,as a nurse, he acted as an advocate for a seriously ill patient who hadn't made a will. One of his biggest mistakes was to speak for part of a group that he was facilitating without an invitation, taking on the mantle of leadership when it hadn't been conferred upon him. The most formative experience for Edmund was a residential at Findhorn (https://www.findhorn.org/ (https://www.findhorn.org/)) which involved teaching on conflict and change by Ben Fuchs and Andrew Murray. The three books that Edmund would recommend to aspiring leaders are: The Practice of Adaptive Leadership by Ronald Heifetz, Sitting in the Fire by Arnold Mindell, and Difficult Conversations by Sheila Heen, Douglas Stone and others. Edmund's self-care regime includes sailing, platform diving, and running. His advice to his 20-year old self would be “stick with it and let it unfold.”

In a (non-recorded) conversation with Alison, she mentioned how uncomfortable she was with being recorded, having our conversations ”put out there” in the world. At the time, I asked if we could have this discussion on the pod. So. We did. That's where we started off this time, and I have to say, I am honored to have a friend like Alison. Willing to dive deep, to open up, and me getting surprisingly emotional in tears now and again. (My kids lovingly tease me about how easily moved to tears I am, all they have to do is put on a video or two from Britain's Got Talent, and my tears are in free-fall! But not to worry about me, I see this as a very positive trait of mine.) When I decided to start this pod-series, Alison was the first person I asked to join me. I was fairly certain she'd turn me down, and was very surprised at her immediate yes. Right off the bat. If Alison had asked me to stop recording, or even take down the episodes out there, or not to keep on sharing the material I've got from the published episodes. I would have. Not happily. But I would have. My friendship with her is more important to me, even though, the value that I get from these conversations is undoubtedly also of value to others. But not to the extent that it surpasses the value I place on our friendship. Being able to have a conversation like this, about being recorded and going public, while actually being recorded was special. Very special. A testament to the trust we have in each other. And to the level of trust we have in ourselves. Or don't have? Is it this latter facet that is at the root of how comfortable, or uncomfortable, a person is with being visible? If I'd asked you, to join me in a recorded meandering conversation like this one, what would your answer be? A yes? A Hell yes, even? Or a big fat No way? I hope you are as curious as I am as to what your response would be! Now. There's some tankespjärn for you. Links: Episode 9 Questioning the shortage of housing with Alison Coates Book tip: Arnold Mindell, The deep democracy of open forums On Being-episode with Michelle Alexander: Who we want to become, beyond the new Jim Crow

Often, dreams are not included in embodiment practices. Yet, the dream is there in the body, a connection that psychologist Arnold Mindell calls the dreambody. In this episode I explore ways in which I have experienced dreaming and the body. And, I suggest ways in which you might explore the dream as a support of your sensory practice in everyday life, connecting dream, body and the world. This is a contribution of the Embodiment Project, a nine week cycle that explores how individuals can join in community towards a more deeply embodied life. You can find out more about the Project at www.SomaticsInstitute.com

Join me and my friend Joy as we chat about Working with the Dreaming Body by Arnold Mindell. We get into it, talking about how the body holds onto memories, emotions, pain and also contains great wisdom. It's a fascinating book that Joy can't keep on her bookshelves because she is always giving it out! Throughout the episode Joy and I share about our experiences as massage therapists and Body Mind Coaches. So you will get a little insight into what we do! We also get to chat about reading books outside of our usual topics and how you can get good book recommendations from the strangest places. Join us!If you are curious and want to learn more about Joy's or my work here are some ways to connect with us:Joy:http://essentialconnectionsmassage.ca/https://www.facebook.com/essentialconnectionsmassageMeg:https://linktr.ee/megrunyanstudiosInstagram @ megrunyanstudiosMusic: Kauwela by Scandinavianz is licensed under a Creative Commons License. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... 

Dhamma Dena: Queer Online Retreat with Leslie Booker, Mel Coats, Ian Challis, October 2020 (Week 1) Finding our channel of love.

"Have your program worked out doesn't mean that you are prepared" says Marike Groenewald, one of our guests in this podcast episode. Audience participation and engagement depends on the “way of being” of a facilitator. But what does it need to create a liberal environment in training sessions and events, where an audience is able to participate fully and think well for themselves? In this episode we're meeting Marike Groenewald who is the founder of Anew, an organisational and people development consultancy based in Cape Town, South Africa. Marike also served for nearly eight years as the Director of the DA's Young Leaders Programme, the party's flagship year-long leadership development course and the only programme of its kind in the world. Trisha Lord, Trainer and Coach lecturing in advanced Coaching Skills, has trained with Arnold Mindell in Process Facilitation; and is accredited by Nancy Kline as a Faculty Member, Consultant and Coach in delivering the Thinking Environment. Trisha is also based in South Africa.

Ne parliamo continuamente. A livello politico, organizzativo, commerciale, relazionale, sportivo. Alcuni la venerano, altri la temono, altri ancora la detestano. Stiamo parlando della leadership: un fenomeno sociale, che esiste da millenni. Ok, fermi un attimo. Che cos'è la leadership? Da cosa è caratterizzata? Quali aspetti ha e quali invece non le appartengono? Ma soprattutto, è possibile che la leadership non abbia alternative? Certo che ne ha. Una di queste è la cosiddetta "eldership" (anzianità), introdotta e sviluppata da Arnold Mindell nella facilitazione di processi di conflitti interpersonali. #PARDESIANI #podcast Coltiviamo il Futuro con Curiosità Buon ascolto. _________________ Continuiamo insieme la conversazione nel gruppo dei Pardesiani su Facebook a questo indirizzo: www.facebook.com/groups/pardesiani

Scopriamo insieme Tara, nata dall'idea di due professioniste che credono nei valori di condivisione, facilitazione e realizzazione dei progetti. Per reinventare le organizzazioni, Per un mondo migliore, per creare il futuro.Qui potete visitare i sito di Tara: https://tarafacilitazione.com/Ecco il libro citato da Melania: 'Essere nel fuoco’ Arnold Mindell (https://amzn.to/2Vlhg6F)Nel fuori onda abbiamo parlato anche di ‘Reinventare le organizzazioni’ di Frederic Laloux (https://amzn.to/3ctYYpB)Scarica la Guida “Fatti dare l’ok” alle tue proposte, idee e soluzioni. La trovi qui: https://www.leonardavanicelli.comCondividi il podcast, è gratis. Da qui è possibile ascoltarlo sulla piattaforma che preferisci: https://gopod.me/lavoromeglio La musica di Lavoro Meglio è “Better” composta e suonata da Stefano Bucci

"El conflicto nos obliga a despertar y, para lo bueno o para lo malo, nos recuerda que tenemos que vivir y morir juntos. De alguna manera, la tensión es el mayor desafío para los grupos, pero cuando aprendemos a controlarla, puede ser un maravilloso regalo." Arnold Mindell. Este físico y psicólogo Estadounidense nos aporta cómo a través de un conflicto (una realidad) podemos transformarnos y hacer un mundo mejor. Según Arnold Mindell, existen 3 niveles de realidad. Si quieres saber cuáles son en cuál de ellos estás viviendo, no te pierdas este episodio. Web: https://dptejiendoredes.com IG: @dptejiendoredes Facebook: @dptejiendoredes

Do you take the time you need regularly to really think about the deeper mysteries in life, like what being truly conscious means or how God plays a role in everyone’s lives whether you believe or not?Paul discusses the bigger picture — the forces of good and evil, the power of plant medicines as teachers and where gifted people come from — with author, Earth activist and biodynamic organic farmer David Wolfe in this wide-ranging and interplanetary Living 4D episode.Learn more about David’s work on his website and his non-profit The Fruit Tree Planting Foundation. Look for him on social media via Facebook and Instagram.Show NotesAs a young child, David did “renegade planting” of pine trees in neighborhood yards. (6:36)David was the “black sheep” of his family. (10:29)Rudolf Steiner’s Ahrimanic Deception. (21:51)The importance of vibration and material substances in our lives. (30:26)The X Factor of reality. (45:04)Paul does the Tony Robbins firewalk. (53:28)Teachers reincarnated as plant medicines. (1:06:01)When does someone really need plant medicines? (1:11:47)How plant medicines amplify reality. (1:25:21)Art therapy: An alternative to plant medicines. (1:30:24)Cracking the love code. (1:43:18)The complex components of mental illness. (1:55:01)A fear of death. (2:03:21)Successful people who are engaged in their lives write things down. (2:09:16)Does entertaining possibilities — being open to the mystery — feel better than following more rigid belief systems? (2:19:43)Could great athletes and prodigies come from dimensions other than our own to teach us things? (2:30:13)The purpose of crystals. (2:37:01)Mother Nature’s bigger plan. (2:46:43)Meditation: One of the biggest lessons David learned to sit with problems and make better decisions. (2:50:59)Irrational numbers vs. imaginary numbers. (3:00:01)The important interface between subtle energy fields and your health. (3:07:08)ResourcesAnatomy of the Psyche by Edward EdingerThe Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsThe study of TheosophySpace, Time and Self by F. Norman PearsonPaul Schatz’s kinematic inversion principleThe Shaman’s Body by Arnold Mindell and Cathy BernattMore resources for this episode are available on our websiteThanks to our awesome sponsors: Organifi (save 20 percent on your purchase by using the code CHEK20 at checkout), Cymbiotika (save 15 percent on your purchase when you use the code CHEK15 at checkout), One Farm (use the code CHEK to save 15 percent on your purchase at checkout) and BiOptimizers (save 27 percent on BiOptimizer’s Upgraded Digestion package of products Paul uses by using the code CHEK10 at checkout).

Tutti noi ci troviamo costantemente in maggioranza e in minoranza, vero? Molto spesso però, in questo, facciamo due grandi errori di disattenzione. Il primo è non renderci conto delle ‘maggioranze e minoranze invisibili’ nelle quali ci troviamo. Il secondo è pensare che, appartenere all’una o all’altra, determini delle conseguenze immodificabili nel nostro quotidiano (quando invece dipende dalla nostra consapevolezza e dal nostro agire).La maggioranza è solo statisticamente diversa dalla minoranza. Tra l’altro in una determinata situazione, spesso mutevole anche in tempi rapidi.La maggioranza non per forza è sbagliata. E la minoranza non è per forza debole. Ma la maggioranza non è in automatico migliore della minoranza. Talvolta, infatti, i componenti della maggioranza godono semplicemente di privilegi scontati (di cui sono inconsapevoli) che a lungo andare la fossilizzano nel non accorgersi degli altri, di sé e delle proprie necessità di cambiamento.Essere in minoranza, invece, a volte è paradossalmente comodo. Soprattutto a livello politico. Perché dispensa dalla responsabilità di prendere decisioni per la totalità e di doverne quindi rendere conto.Enrico cita l’esperienza di maggioranze e minoranze percepite da tre persone a lui care: la sua ragazza, sua sorella e un suo caro amico. E soprattutto confessa di sentirsi in maggioranza in una data situazione (che non richiede praticamente mai delle spiegazioni) e di sentirsi faticosamente in minoranza in un’altra (che viene ancora spesso sottovalutata o incompresa).E tu, come ti senti nelle tue maggioranze e/o minoranze?_________________Continuiamo insieme la conversazione nel gruppo dei Pardesiani su Facebook a questo indirizzo: www.facebook.com/groups/pardesiani_________________RISORSE CITATE NELLA PUNTATAIl sito di Arnold Mindell http://www.aamindell.net/process-workIl sito di Process Work Italia https://www.processworkitalia.comLa comunicazione in cerchio del Way of Council http://www.ilcambiamento.it/articoli/the-way-of-council-la-via-verso-l-ascolto-e-il-benessereL’imitazione fatta da Neri Marcorè https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4x1gw5L’imitazione fatta da Corrado Guzzanti https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SySzs6wdLCc

In this episode, Neal Christopher and Badr Raknakaran give an overview of other podcasts that may be of interest to psychiatrists. Links to some resources below: (Not all are discussed in the episode)   Psychopharmacology Updates Practical psychopharmacology updates for mental health clinicians. Useful for psychiatry / mental health professionals. Expert interviews and soundbites from CME presentations. Practical and free of commercial bias. Not sponsored by any pharmaceutical company. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psychopharmacology-and-psychiatry-updates/id1425185370   MDedge https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mdedge-psychcast/id1382898254?mt=2 MDedge Psychcast is a weekly podcast from MDedge Psychiatry, online home of Clinical Psychiatry News and Current Psychiatry. Hosted by Editor in Chief Lorenzo Norris, MD, Psychcast features psychiatric clinicians discussing the issues and concerns that most affect their specialty. The information in this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. The Medical Mind Podcast A podcast about innovation in mental health care from the APA Division of Education. APA Administration host Ann Thomas interviews APA members and other healthcare professionals about new initiatives in psychiatry. https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/education/podcasts/the-medical-mind-podcast   Psychiatric Services From Pages to Practice Psychiatric Services Editor Lisa Dixon, M.D., M.P.H., and Podcast Editor and co-host Josh Berezin, M.D., M.S., discuss key aspects of research recently published by Psychiatric Services. Tune in to Psychiatric Services From Pages to Practice to learn about the latest mental health services research and why it is relevant. Topics include community-based treatment programs, collaborative care, evidence-based treatment and service delivery, criminal and social justice, policy analysis, and more. https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/podcast   Psychiatry Unbound APA Publishing's Books podcast, hosted by APA Books Editor-in-Chief, Laura Roberts, M.D. Psychiatry Unbound offers the opportunity to hear the voices behind the most prominent psychiatric scholarship in the field today. Subscribe now to learn about important topics in the field of psychiatry and see how our authors are making an impact in clinical settings throughout the world. http://psychiatryunbound.apapublishing.libsynpro.com/   AJP Audio brings you highlights from each issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry. https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/audio   The Journal of Clinical Psychiatry Publisher's Podcast includes monthly audio updates of the features in each issue of JCP, plus special features added from time to time. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-journal-of-clinical-psychiatry-publishers-podcast/id386299220   Concepts in Psychiatry The premiere podcast for psychiatrists, psychiatry residents, and other mental health professionals interested in strengthening their knowledge of the fundamental concepts of psychiatry and learning the latest news in the treatment of mental health disorders. Hosted by Sarah DeLeon, MD, a third year psychiatry resident. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/concepts-in-psychiatry/id1257416543   PsychEd: educational psychiatry podcast This podcast is written and produced by psychiatry residents at the University of Toronto and is aimed at medical students and residents. Listeners will learn about fundamental and more advanced topics in psychiatry as our resident team explore these topics with world-class psychiatrists at U of T and abroad. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psyched-educational-psychiatry-podcast/id1215646896 Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Each month JAACAP highlights a selected article found within the pages of the Journal by providing a podcast interview with the author. Tune in regularly to this feature of JAACAP, where we strive for a relaxed 'fireside chat' atmosphere in which authors can share aspects of their science that we are less often privy to. Podcasts are typically 15 to 20 minutes in length. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/journal-american-academy-child-adolescent-psychiatry/id660778429   Focus on Neurology and Psychiatry by ReachMD New research and clinical trials yield frequent developments in neuroscience and mental health. ReachMD welcomes an array of leading thinkers who lend their focused expertise to these principles, central to human function and ability. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/focus-on-neurology-and-psychiatry/id913720346 Mad in America podcast Welcome to the Mad in America podcast, a new weekly discussion that searches for the truth about psychiatric prescription drugs and mental health care worldwide. This podcast is part of Mad in America's mission to serve as a catalyst for rethinking psychiatric care. We believe that the current drug-based paradigm of care has failed our society and that scientific research, as well as the lived experience of those who have been diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder, calls for profound change. On the podcast we have interviews with experts and those with lived experience of the psychiatric system. Thank you for joining us as we discuss the many issues around rethinking psychiatric care around the world.   https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/focus-on-neurology-and-psychiatry/id913720346   SAGE Psychology & Psychiatry Welcome to the official free Podcast site from SAGE for Psychology & Psychiatry. SAGE is a leading international publisher of journals, books, and electronic media for academic, educational, and professional markets with principal offices in Los Angeles, London, New Delhi, and Singapore. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sage-psychology-psychiatry/id871125966   Mental Health and Psychiatry (Video & Audio) Guest speakers, researchers and University of California faculty explore mental illness and mental health. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mental-health-and-psychiatry-video/id522813934 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mental-health-and-psychiatry-audio/id522813323 PeerView Neuroscience & Psychiatry CME/CNE/CPE Audio Podcast PeerView is an independent, professional medical publishing company focused on gathering and reporting information pertaining to clinically relevant advances and developments in the science and practice of medicine. As publishers of PeerView Publications, PeerView is solely responsible for the selection of publication topics, the preparation of editorial content and the distribution of all materials it publishes. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/peerview-neuroscience-psychiatry-cme-cne-cpe-audio/id179489480 Mental Health Book Club Podcast Sydney Timmins - a writer and Becky Lawrence - a secondary school teacher discuss books that contain mental health issues. Sydney and Becky will combine their love of reading and talking, working their way through anything from self-help, fiction and memoirs tackling a range of mental health issues. Trigger warning: this podcast discusses mental health topics that may cause distress to some listeners, we will give a full list of topics in each episodes show notes. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mental-health-book-club-podcast/id1279210164 Mental - The Podcast to Destigmatise Mental Health Mental is the brain-child of Bobby Temps, who lives and thrives while managing his own mental health. Each week joined by a special guest Mental is intended to be a safe space to hear honest and open discussion about mental health in the hope listeners will feel more empowered to continue the conversation with others. This podcast is a chance for Bobby to give back for the support he has received and share what he continues to learn in the ongoing journey for optimum mental wellbeing. Covering many, many topics that influence mental health, we focus on identity and the sheer weight of being a human in our modern, technology-filled world. Learn about different conditions from first-hand experience, with statistics you can trust and inspiring guests. Mental health is something to be mindful of just as much as physical health, and Mental strives to let listeners know that they don't have to do so alone. Oh, and remember… you are enough! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mental-the-podcast-to-destigmatise-mental-health/id1358920477   MQ Open Mind  MQ: Transforming Mental Health https://www.mqmentalhealth.org/ MQ Open Mind looks at the science behind mental health and its potential to transform lives. The show digs deep into the cutting-edge research taking on mental illness and speaks to the people it could help. Hear conversations on a range of different conditions, from depression and anxiety to schizophrenia and bipolar. Brought to you by MQ: Transforming Mental Health, the new major mental health research charity https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mq-open-mind/id1271690765 Piece of Mind: Mental Health & Psychiatry We bring you the latest on mental health research at Cardiff University's MRC Centre and the National Centre for Mental Health (NCMH), plus real-life experiences of people affected by mental health problems. We would love to hear your feedback or ideas for future episodes, either comment on our latest episode, message us at info@ncmh.info or Tweet/Insta with #POMpod. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/piece-of-mind-mental-health-psychiatry/id1326789920 Mental Health Foundation podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mental-health-foundation-podcast/id665005881   JAMA Psychiatry Author Interviews Interviews with authors of articles from JAMA Psychiatry. JAMA Psychiatry is an international peer-reviewed journal for clinicians, scholars, and research scientists in psychiatry, mental health, behavioral science, and allied fields. JAMA Psychiatry strives to publish original, state-of-the-art studies and commentaries of general interest to clinicians, scholars, and research scientists in the field. The journal seeks to inform and to educate its readers as well as to stimulate debate and further exploration into the nature, causes, treatment, and public health importance of mental illness. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jama-psychiatry-author-interviews/id1227007379   ADD Lancet NEI Podcast Neuroscience Education Institute The Neuroscience Education Institute (NEI) is committed to help raise the standard of mental health by providing imaginative medical education that focuses on the highest level of learning. Each episode offers an opportunity to learn about current issues in psychiatry from key opinion leaders in the medical field. NEI's Podcast would be of value to anyone with an interest in neuropsychiatric diseases and psychopharmacology. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nei-podcast/id288425495 Therapy We All Wear It Differently A podcast for early career psychologists. If you're looking for inspiration and advice for your psychology career, you're in the right place. Amy Felman interviews working psychologists from diverse fields with all levels of experience as they share their journeys, challenges and career breakthroughs that have lead them to where they are today. Tune in and discover how we all wear it differently. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-all-wear-it-differently-podcast-for-early-career/id992827102 Psychologists Off The Clock: A Psychology Podcast About The Science And Practice Of Living Well Ever wonder what therapists talk about over coffee? We are three clinical psychologists who love to chat about the best ideas from psychology. In this podcast, we explore the psychological principles we use in our clinical work, and bring you ideas from psychology that can help you flourish in your work, parenting, relationships, and health. Thank you for listening to Psychologists Off The Clock! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psychologists-off-clock-psychology-podcast-about-science/id1176171178 Shrink Rap Radio David Van Nuys, Ph.D. All the psychology you need to know and just enough to make you dangerous... This podcast features renowned psychologist,Dr. David Van Nuys , brining you in-depth interviews on a broad array of psychological topics including: psychotherapy, dreams, consciousness, depth psychology, business psychology, developmental psychology, mind/body psychology, personal growth, psychology and art, research psychology, social issues, and spirituality. The roster of world-class guests includes: Philip Zimbardo, Charles Tart, Irvin Yalom, Jonathan Haidt, Sara Lazar, Robert Altemeyer, Stanley Krippner, Arnold Mindell, Dacher Keltner, Michael Meade, and David Barlow among others. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shrink-rap-radio/id79491957 Speaking of Psychology American Psychological Association "Speaking of Psychology" is an audio podcast series highlighting some of the latest, most important and relevant psychological research being conducted today. Produced by the American Psychological Association, these podcasts will help listeners apply the science of psychology to their everyday lives. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/speaking-of-psychology/id705934263 Counselor Toolbox Podcast  Dr. Dawn-Elise Snipes Counselors, coaches and sober companions help hundreds of thousands of people affected by Addictions and Mental Health issues each year. Learn about the current research and practical counseling tools to improve your skills and provide the best possible services. Counselor Toolbox targets counselors, coaches and companions, but can also provide useful counseling self-help tools for persons struggling with these issues and their loved ones. AllCEUs is an approved counseling continuing education provider for addiction and mental health counselors in most states. Counseling CEUs are available for each episode. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/counselor-toolbox-podcast/id1120947649 The Trauma Therapist Guy Macpherson, PhD This is a podcast about people helping people. Bruce Perry, Gabor Mate, Janina Fisher and many other of the world's leading master therapists, thought leaders and game-changers who specialize in PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, trauma, complex trauma and related fields join Guy Macpherson, PhD at thetraumatherapistpodcast.com for inspiring interviews about what it takes and what it means to sit with those who've been impacted by trauma. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-trauma-therapist/id899009517 The Thoughtful Counselor The Thoughful Counselor Team The Thoughtful Counselor is a podcast that is dedicated to producing great conversations around current topics in counseling and psychotherapy. We view counseling and psychotherapy as a deeply beautiful and complex process, and strive to incorporate both the art and science of the field in each episode. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-thoughtful-counselor/id1152853871 Between Us: A Psychotherapy Podcast    Psychotherapists John Totten and Mason Neely bring you this psychotherapy podcast that explores what is happening between therapists and patients, from both sides of the relationship. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/between-us-a-psychotherapy-podcast/id1152775317 The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide with Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy Curt Widhalm, LMFT and Katie Vernoy, LMFT The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide: Where Therapists Live, Breathe, and Practice as Human Beings It's time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when clinicians must develop a personal brand to market their private practices, and are connecting over social media, engaging in social activism, pushing back against mental health stigma, and facing a whole new style of entrepreneurship. To support you as a whole person, a business owner, and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/modern-therapists-survival-guide-curt-widhalm-katie/id1310770477   ACT in Context Association for Contextual Behavioral Science ACT in Context is freely available to anyone, and its episodes will take listeners on a journey from the history and development of ACT through its clinical application and the future of the work. This podcast will primarily focus on ACT, but it will often touch upon several related issues such as behavioral principles, the underlying theory of language (Relational Frame Theory) and philosophy of science. We hope that informal learners, potential consumers, researchers and clinicians alike find it useful. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/act-in-context/id748513885   The Learn Psych Podcast is a monthly educational podcast on topics in psychiatry. It is targeted towards students and trainees, though it is often relevant to a wide variety of healthcare providers. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/learn-psych-podcast/id1118809594   Psychiatry Today Join Dr. Scot Bay every Wednesday night at 7PM while he discusses Psychiatry and mental health with guests. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psychiatry-today/id279601313   Psychiatric videos for teaching Psychiatric interviews created for teaching purposes. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psychiatric-videos-for-teaching/id670271700   Psyched??! We answer your call for psychiatry and mental health topics with our new upcoming podcast. We are two psychiatrists, David Carreon, 100%-nerd with a side of philosophy, and Jessi Gold, down-to-earth, empathic and, at times, sarcastic. We're starting a podcast called "Psyched!" aimed to communicate stories in neuroscience and psychiatry to a wider audience. We're targeting psychiatrists as our primary listeners, but hope to have a program that's accessible, entertaining and informative for a broader audience. Basically, we want to be the Economist for psychiatry. We'll cover everything from the foundational to the cutting-edge, from the popular to the weird. We hope to capture and communicate the excitement of psychiatry, and have fun while doing it. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psyched-a-psychiatry-blog-episodes/id1299266826   Let's Talk about Borderline Personality Disorder A podcast about Borderline Personality Disorder by the National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder (NEABPD) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lets-talk-about-borderline-personality-disorder/id1310234795   Psychiatry from University of Oxford Psychiatry is a medical discipline seeking to understand and treat mental illness. These podcasts provide an introduction to core topics in psychiatry, and to research undertaken in the Oxford University Department of Psychiatry. This series is relevant to health-care professionals and members of the public. The topic podcasts are particularly relevant to medical students studying psychiatry. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psychiatry/id796432735   MGH Psychiatry Academy Podcasts https://player.fm/series/mgh-psychiatry-academy-podcasts  

How do you actually heal old attachment wounds in partnership - so you can create passionate, secure attachment with your partner? Today you’ll learn how to connect with your partner powerfully, in the present moment, to rewire your brain, break unhealthy patterns, and find the joy and wonder that’s waiting for you just below the surface. Our guest today is Dr. David Mars, the creator of AEDP for Couples. He specializes in helping couples heal attachment wounds and traumas, find each other again in the present, and create a joyful, passionate vision for their future together. His work can help you if you’re in a new relationship, or if you’ve been with your partner for 30 years. David integrates more than 30 years of experience as a couples therapist with today’s cutting edge neuroscience - and you’ll see exactly how that allows you to get into really deep touch with your own experience, with your partner’s experience - and how to bridge the gap between you. I’m so excited for you to experience David Mars’s work, and to see how AEDP for Couples can offer you something new in how you show up in your relationship! As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Want to experience a Luxury Suite or VIP Box at an amazing concert or sporting event? Check out Suitehop.com/DATENIGHT to score sweet deals on a special night for you and your partner. Resources: Visit David Mars’s website to learn more about his work and therapist trainings. If you’re in a relationship and interested in experiencing David Mars’s work, visit https://www.aedpforcouplestherapy.com/ Check out David’s AEDP for Couples' Training DVDs. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/mars to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with David Mars. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. It's been my mission to bring to you the most powerful healing modalities, the most powerful ways for you to find yourself in a deeper state of connection, with the people in your life that you're closest to. And of course, this can travel into all aspects of your life, but nowhere is it more important than with our partners, our spouses, our beloveds. And so it's been really important to me, not only to bring you what I consider to be the best of the best, but to also be uncovering new avenues that we haven't explored yet, because as fun as it is to have John Gottman on the show over and over again, he's a pretty cool guy, at the same time, there are so many modalities available to us that are effective and powerful. Neil Sattin: And you may have heard my episode fairly recently with Diana Fosha, which was all focused on AEDP, Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy. And even though that's a mouthful, in its most basic form, it's about helping us heal the attachment wounds and traumas, the things that get in the way of us having the richest experience of life that we could possibly be having. It's important stuff. And of course, my goal for you is that you can not only access that, but that you can also bring it to your relationship. Neil Sattin: So you get to overcome what it's like, not only to feel alone in you sometimes in some challenging experiences, but also what it can be like to feel alone as a couple, or alone in your couple. How do you bring connectedness in a powerful way to your experience of being with each other, in a way that deepens and leaves you feeling safer, more connected, more passionate, etcetera? So in order to dive more deeply into this topic, today we have an amazing guest with us, his name is David Mars and he is the creator of AEDP For Couples. Neil Sattin: So it is the application of this work for therapists, in... So in a therapeutic setting, towards bringing couples into deeper connection with each other, and bridging the gaps of disconnect, bringing them into a more of a sense of peace and justice with each other, and also how they enter the new phase of their life, like that new phase that happens after the work that they do together, so that it can really be a powerful send-off into this new phase. And in preparing for this conversation, I've had the honor of being able to watch David work with couples, and it has been amazingly powerful. Neil Sattin: So I'm really excited for you to be able to experience him here with me today and to get more of a sense of how this approach to healing some of our deepest wounds can actually be this amazing, life-giving, joyful, burst of experience that you can then bring into your relationship. That might sound like a lot for an hour-long conversation but I'm pretty sure we'll get close. So as usual, we will have a detailed transcript of this conversation, and in order to download that, you can visit neilsattin.com/mars, M-A-R-S, as in David, Mars, today's guest. Or, as always, you can text the word Passion to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. I think that's it. So David Mars, welcome to Relationship Alive, and thank you so much for joining us today. David Mars: Thank you so much, Neil. I'm so touched by your introduction. And I'm just so aware of your dedication to watching all four of these three DVD sets of video training, and just so happy to have this honor of talking with you and with our audience as well. Neil Sattin: Well, it's great to be here, and I appreciate your generosity in giving me access to your work. And as people who are regular listeners of this show have hopefully come to know, it's so important to me to be able to have that level of familiarity so that we can dive more deeply. And otherwise, we could talk for an hour about how you came to be an AEDP therapist, but I want to go more deeply into what you do, in ways that also are in the context of other conversations that we've had here on the show. So for example, we spoke to Diana, so you don't need to give us the full run-down on AEDP. We may do... David Mars: Yes. Neil Sattin: A little bit of that just to bring people up to speed. But if you're watching or listening to this, then I invite you to also check out the interview with Diana Fosha, which is really powerful, and where this, the AEDP, part of the work originates. David Mars: Yes. Neil Sattin: And David, you mentioned to me that you were a couples therapist for 30 years before coming into the AEDP realm. David Mars: Yeah. Yes. Starting in 1975. So it's 43 years. It's hard to believe [chuckle] but that's true. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that's amazing and let's just say that I was one-year-old when you first started. [laughter] David Mars: I should say that my beginnings with psychotherapy and couple therapy were really also working with families and with the groups, and it's a lot of aspects of work that was beyond couples alone. But the couple therapy has always been my strongest affiliation and connection, and my favorite work to do, partly because it's so darn difficult to do well, so it keeps me growing through these four and a third decades and continuing in my personal relationship also with my wife of 35 years, it's so wonderful to be with her and to see how what I learn and she learns because she co-teaches the work with me. Karen Pando-Mars and I teach together and being married together with a 19-year-old daughter and a 46-year-old daughter, from a previous marriage, really gives me a sense of the meaning, a deep meaning of how it is to be alive, how it is to have love be a guiding force and a guiding principle for how to be making decisions and how to exist even in conversation. Neil Sattin: So David you were saying that you have been in, you've been a couples therapist for 30 years, and I'm curious for you, in terms of, as we think about the landscape of what's possible in the couple's world, what was it like for you, even having been a therapist for 30 years to discover AEDP and just can you give us a glimpse of what that brought to you and what that's brought to the way that you've seen your work unfold with couples? David Mars: Yeah, I want to give a little context. In the decades before finding AEDP, which was 13 years ago, that I came to AEDP, I had done work that was very related to AEDP in process work through Arnold Mindell, and in respiratory psychophysiology, meaning the knowledge of how the breathing and the body co-relate and I would... For two decades plus would use monitoring equipment, computerized and very accurate monitoring equipment to look at breathing, heart rate, hand warming, muscle tension etcetera of the couples that I worked with, so that I could see how they're being affected by each other, but even more important, they could see how they were affecting each other, and realize that, for example, if I'm a man who speaks to his heterosexual wife in a way that's very firm and strong and sharp and clear and as expected of me at work, but when I see that her hand temperature drops her breathing rate increases. Her heart rate increases and becomes more agitated. David Mars: And I find out that, wow, that's strong masculine... How I'm speaking actually turns her off rather than on, [chuckle] except for stress arousal gets turned on. But not her closeness to me, if I'm that man, I can learn to speak more kindly and softly and firmly in a way that's more meaningful and sourced by my own experience rather than my judgments, very powerful. And in these decades that I'd worked before finding AEDP, I also was very much oriented toward positivity and would have to be kind of apologizing sometimes because people would find that over the decades, that positivity wasn't really regarded yet as being optimal for psychotherapy. David Mars: Many people felt that going darker, going more into the harsher aspect of life or a scream therapy or whatever it would be [chuckle] in the 80s, for example, or 70s, was really more important than the attending to love, to kindness, the feeling of really modulating harsh impulses and speaking even when angry, about what is really meaningful, what you really want to be understood about where I don't take my "Hurt" and hurt someone else with it, but rather maybe choose a more vulnerable side of feeling sad which is a part of hurt, feeling sad that I'm hurt and angry that I got hurt, but I go with sorrow, then the partner is much more likely to come close to me. David Mars: So, that preceded AEDP. What was different with AEDP, in 2005 for me was that in meeting Diana Fosha, within the first 20 minutes of her presentation, I knew I wanted to study with her. And work with her and come to New York and get trained by her and by the morning break... David Mars: I decided on that first morning break to come to New York and study with her, with my wife Karen Pando-Mars, and in going to New York, I found that I was able to share video of my work even during the first five-day training called an immersion course, and had that thrill of experiencing the cohesion of how I'd been working with AEDP, but also the organization of AEDP's scientific principles, the effect of neuroscience in particular, the understanding about attachment research which has been immense in my life since, to understand how attachment research informs me, and helps me as a person and as a therapist, and also Diana as a person, her remarkable intellect and, genius really, and kindness and humbleness, an odd package to find in a person, [chuckle] and it was so inspiring to me, that within a few years of study and intense work, I was able to become a faculty. I guess it was four years or so, of really intensive study and supervision with Diana. David Mars: And so the quality of, the felt experience of love that I already started with, got more deepened by understanding how the work of AEDP, Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy, holds out for individuals and then transfer that understanding into the couple work and adding to it my own background in bio-feedback and understanding how the heart, and breath, and mind correlate with each other, and how we can enhance that loving vibe, which is literally a pulse wave from the heart that can be felt, that that power is so gratifying to be part of an institution. The AEDP Institute in New York is so moving to be a part of. All the people in it, the 24 faculty plus Diana, are so resonant with the values that I hold, it's quite, quite a joy. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I mean, if you get the sense of like... I was watching these DVDs of you working, and found myself moved, moved to tears so many times and laughing and, or accessing even in a really sorrowful moment, we'll talk about this in a minute. But, so tapped into my own experience that I would be starting to cry and then, I'd notice "Oh my goodness. The person in the video is also on the verge of tears right now." David Mars: Yes, yes. Neil Sattin: So it's all about developing that. And so this is just watching DVDs. So imagine the power of bringing that into how couples really learn to experience each other. David Mars: Yes. Neil Sattin: So it's not like glimpsing that level of positive effect, but also living there. David Mars: Yeah, I so agree with you. And I just saw a couple last night, for example, where the couple came in with the dynamic actually, like the one I described, of the harsh speaking pattern in the male in this heterosexual couple, and the woman being quite well-meaning, quite dear, very sensitive, and not used to being talked to harshly. And how she was raised, for her it's shocking to be disrespected, but for him, he grew up with a lot of disrespect, and a lot of challenging behavior from his elder brothers, and lack of protection by the parents, so for him, harshness, is part of a defense structure that is survival-based, and as he lets go of it and becomes kinder and loving with her... David Mars: I was able to say to the couple, "You know I just see how much progress you're making between sessions, how many great examples you've given me today of how I see you becoming more loving with your wife, and she's responding so warmly. My thought is, let's just shorten the session today, I could see you doing the work in between sessions, and you can see this recording of the session and rehearse it at home," And he said, "I'm so glad because I'm exhausted, I would love to go home early." [chuckle] It's a very unusual situation of knowing their work is between sessions right now. David Mars: With their two-year-old son, and that's a joy from me, that that work comes home, and shows up in the next session, as evidence of the work, really, I mean, part of the natural lived life of this couple. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that's an interesting feature of your work. And my understanding is that obviously, it's not a requirement for couples to have their work with an AEDP for couples therapist videotaped, but that is something that you do encourage as... And it gives them the opportunity to see themselves... David Mars: Yes. Neil Sattin: In these, sometimes less than ideal states with each other. David Mars: Yes, yes. Neil Sattin: And also to witness their transformation moments and... David Mars: Yes, absolutely. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that seems really powerful for the couples that choose to do that, and choose to watch the videos that are taken. David Mars: Yup, yeah. It is true that in the therapists that I supervise and train, most do not videotape all their couples. But all videotaped some of their couples, a couple, so they can get trained. And for me, I videotape all the work that I do, and I'm so joyful that my couples that call, I let them know over the phone, that's how I work. And for me, my first experience of video being used with me was in 1970, and I got to see myself several times a week, on video as part of my undergraduate training interacting with others, trying to solve problems and seeing how my brilliant idea when expressed in a certain way, would shut down the conversation. In another way, I could be more humble and come forward in a more soft way, a more relational way that would bring the conversation up, and all of us would rise together, like the tide rises, lifts all boats. David Mars: So, I got to see in 1970, how that is, had that blessing. So for now, all the way from to then, I have this continuous relationship to video as a way to enhance learning, into how people understand, how the reflective function can increase, and the capacity to reflect on oneself accurately is a direct relationship to secure attachment and developing more earned secure attachment. If I know actually how I am being, and I'm aware of myself, I can be aware of you, and by being aware of you and me together, I can become more attuned, and this attunement is so precious because, without it, it's like driving a car around with newspaper glued over all the windows, not knowing where one is going. It's so important. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that reminds me of really learning any skill, and the process of myelination, and how important it is to slow things down in order to get to a new place. And I think particularly around self-reflection, that's something that, it's not easy to, a lot of us don't learn that as we grow up. So I can see that video-ing, process as a way of actually slowing down the circuit, and bringing people into that cycle of self-reflection in a way that would eventually accelerate and become just part of how you operate, from practicing it that way. David Mars: Yup thank you for that. In attachment research, it's very clear that when babies are reflected by their mothers or their fathers, and they are shown that they exist and are recognized in a harmonious way that's reciprocal, that goes back and forth and it's contingent, where the baby's response and the loving parent's response are in harmony with each other, and there's a conversation called the proto-conversation before speech, that baby learns, "I am safe, I am loved, I am delightful, and I'm with delightful people who delight in me being delightful." It teaches that love is a guide, as opposed to fear being the guide, and it's a powerful, powerful example of reflection. David Mars: I'm going to mention something else, Neil, that you mentioned about a couple seeing themselves when they're in these regulated states and realizing how they unconsciously and habitually, they drive their partner away rather than bring their partner closer. What I also really enjoy, is couples seeing each other in love. Pinking cheeks, reddening lips, eyes becoming more vivid in color, bright like shining light, and seeing the light in each other and the love in each other and learning to enjoy love. For many people, love was not something that they had joy with. It's loved mixed with fear, love mixed with danger, love mix with avoidance and dissociation. And so to find that love is safe to soak in, safe to send and receive, and visualize it on the video, visualize it and see more clearly how I can see love in my partner, and feel love for my partner by choice. These are immense, immense powers to possess and to cultivate. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I noticed over and over again as I was watching your work, the refinement with which you were able to notice what was happening in a couple, and then to draw their attention both the person who may be having the experience to, their own experience that they were having, and then to bring their partner in, to invite them into the experience. David Mars: Yes, yes. Neil Sattin: In a way that kept them in dyad with each other. David Mars: Yup. Neil Sattin: Can you talk about that part of your process and why that's so important? David Mars: I'm having such an experience of delight that you've seen these videos, and they're so dear to me, I've seen them so many times in the process, [chuckle] of doing them, creating the workshops etcetera. For me, there's something of great, great delight in being a bridge of consciousness, somatic consciousness, and to see the best in people, and reflect the best of them back to them, and for them to see, hear, feel, sense, even knowing their own movement, that they are vehicles of love when they want to be, with increasing skill, with increasing pride, because it is such a deep deep shame for people and deep sorrow to feel not competent to love. David Mars: It's such a feeling of loss, that I can feel I'm speaking of it. And to be able to love, to be able to be loving, and to be lovable, being loveable, is a skill that many, many people did not learn to do. Survival is not enough in my point of view, and thriving in this world to me, actually, it really requires people to love and be loved. And that's really, I think one of the core elements of how I can help couples to see the best in each other, and to see the moment of a smile before the frown appears to cover it, and just to be there as an open channel for the couples to see, and hear, and feel, and sense each other more vividly in each session. Neil Sattin: Now, if I'm listening, then the question that comes up for me is, "Okay, but how do you address problems then if you're so focused on finding the goodness," I mean the goodness sounds great. Yeah, sure, right. So if you're having this kind of question, maybe one thing to ask yourself is, how open are you to the experience of love, like David was just talking about? And at the same time... Yeah, because people come in right with big, big stuff. "You cheated on me, you're always negative, you're... " right? David Mars: Absolutely. One of the parts I really enjoy about couple therapy is the challenge of having a couple come in, who already is coming in with a dryness, with an anger, with a revenge impulse, with feelings of bitterness, hopelessness, deep, deep, deep even rage, about, let's say, betrayal. And the challenge for me as a therapist, to find the sweet spot with them, in the first question I ask them, which is, "What do you want with each other?" David Mars: What do you want to develop with each other, not for each other or to get from each other? What do you want with each other to experience, should this therapy be successful? And the couple might say I just came in, we have just came in from an argument. I can't think about that right now. I said well I understand this is a transition that's difficult to make. I do see this intention between you, but all the more reason in this therapy, to choose to remember what you want with each other. Because that's our purpose in being. We can certainly talk about what happened in the car before you came into the waiting area. But I would rather have you approach that in a place of loving each other and valuing each other and feeling that you are worth working this through to each other. And from this place we can do great things, working out your conflicts, but only from this place of love can we do it successfully. Neil Sattin: So you're grounding them in that sense of, why are we here? And if this could work, what would we want with each other. And how would you help someone who, for instance, is really landing in a sense of, "Wow, I'm struggling. I'm struggling to even want to answer that question for you". David Mars: Right, so in that case, I might say. I wonder there's a part of you that wants to want to know what you want with your partner and find that part of you that wants to want to be close to her, and just to suspend for the time being the doubting part of you, or the angry part of you that is here. I understand that's a real part of you, but for the time being, to practice a mindful choice to occupy the place of choosing her, just to take the moment. Now, if you will please just see her right now. As you see your partner, "What do you love about her? Just set aside all the rest, just find that 10% of you maybe that really is willing to do this and occupy this part of you". Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Mars: What would I find Neil is that it may be almost unbelievable to imagine people can do this the first session, but it is true. I have video to show it. What I have permission to teach from videos, is very clear that people can choose love over revenge and love over aggravation or love over dissociation because they want to, they get better and better at it. Yes, more, more complete at it, yes. David Mars: Some people can get out one phrase of what they love about their partner, what they want with their partner, and the next Non sequitur is what they're mad at them about. I just need to say, "Wait wait wait, so that lasted 20 seconds. On the positive side, please would you go another minute, just stretch to go a minute of being positive with your partner what you want with your partner. Just one minute." And they go another 14 seconds, another complaint, and I say, "Wow okay, 14 more seconds we're now 34 seconds in, see if you can go another 26 seconds and just be with this that you really want something with your partner, and just hang in." And I'm smiling when I'm saying this, I'm really getting how difficult it is, particularly in contentious couples who come often, at least one of them comes from argumentative family systems. Where learning to argue and have conflict was a skill. And to set it aside, you could hear the armor clinking on the floor, to release that armor is scary, it's downright, terrifying. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And what I love about what you're offering is the way that love and tapping into that energy gives people the strength, and safety to then visit harder places. David Mars: Yes. Neil Sattin: Because I definitely saw that in your work, that there were times when one member of a couple would get to this really vulnerable place and offering something and then the other person just like... And as you're watching it, you're like, "What do you think is going to happen right now?" And of course what happens is it's like, is that love received? No, it's met with some harshness, or disbelief or doubt. And something that I'm curious about is your ability to hold the love and the vulnerability that one person offers and I think this is a valuable skill as a therapist, and also in relationship to be able to... Neil Sattin: For instance, hold that you're offering something that's vulnerable, and at the same time to be met with a no from your partner, a refusal, and to allow them that experience without it necessarily sending you into a shame spiral or a dorsal vagal response. So yeah. How do you hold that dynamic as a therapist? Because I was impressed by how powerful it was to honor, like, it's okay that you're resisting this love right now, I'm not going to force you to accept it. David Mars: Absolutely. Neil Sattin: In this environment, even though that, it's probably what you think. I want you to do... David Mars: Exactly. That's very well put, Neil. Yeah, it isn't about compliance, it isn't about love your partner because I'm saying you should. It's much more really to remember for example in the... That volume one volume two from New Jersey the 30-year marriage DVD set that is a two-part set, when Joanne is refusing Mike's overtures to being loving and at a point, she says I've had 30 years of difficulties with you. I am not going to simply just collapse with my upset with you just because you're nice to me in this session, I'm not, I'm still mad at you. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Mars: And I have a right to be, and I'm not going to... I'm not going to just set it aside. I'm really, really hurt and lonely. And you haven't gotten it, and I want you to get it. Of course, the way she does it, puts him into dorsal vagal again, but I just love that her assertion is so clearly based in her sense of her rights to be a person who has truth with self as the first prerogative beyond behaving herself with a partner and complying with me or her husband and her ferocity I think is really an essential response to being deprived of having rights all through her life growing up. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Mars: So, it was such a... She taught me something there in that. Because it went on. [chuckle] It was like a 13-session series of sessions. It wasn't a super long treatment, but it was one that sometimes felt long to me because the setbacks were almost every session. There would be some part of her that just needed to be mean to him and, thump him one, not physically, but with contempt. And I would just go, wow, okay. [chuckle] Ouch. That actually hurts from over here. And that kind of transparent response that often bring humor to her. She said, "Oh that was really sharp. I don't want to be that aggressive 16-year-old right now, I'm sorry". And she'd apologize to him sometimes. It's that subpart of self that really wasn't quite in her conscious knowing, that would sometimes reach out and do something of an ouch to him. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. David Mars: In the sweetest, most vulnerable moments. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Yeah. So much here to unpack, first I love that you incorporate that notion of multiplicity and parts that are operating. We've had Dick Schwartz on the show to talk about internal family systems and also Toni Herbine-Blank, which is her incorporation of that into couples work. So I find that to be so helpful in people being able to give a voice to the more challenging aspects of their experience, but in a way that keeps a healthy distance from it, while at the same time honoring it, so that they are not becoming it. So I love that you've incorporated that into your work. And I also just want to give some context, to everyone who's watching and listening to that... So David is talking about this two-part DVD set so it's actually six DVDs that are this couple's Conference and in it they show video of David working with a couple, and this couple had been together for 30 years and they were on the brink, the woman partner had had enough, she was done with things being the way they were, and so... Neil Sattin: And I often get emails from listeners like I've been married for 30 years. Is there any hope for me? I think I literally got that email, like three days ago. So one, yes, there is hope for you. And then we get to watch over the course of 15 sessions how they progress together. So it's not like an instant fix and it's also not an un-enduring length of time that it took for them to achieve a lot of progress as a couple. David Mars: Yeah. Neil Sattin: So, just setting some context. The DVDs are amazing. And if you're a therapist or a healer, that immersing yourself in the approach like that is one way that I think would be super helpful for you. David Mars: Can I add something to this Neil? Neil Sattin: Please yeah. David Mars: I'm thinking about how Joanne and Mike, and they had given me permission to use their first names. Neil Sattin: Great. David Mars: In discussing their work, they're very, very joyful about being of service in the world. So that their couple experience can inspire other couples to grow and develop past traumatic ways of interacting and deadening ways of interaction, to ones that are really truly conscious and enhancing. And the couple was on stage with me, and in the... In showing their videos. So they were being interacted with the audience of about 100 therapists in using language, I-language like I use with them, like they use with each other, with the channels of experience, which are sensation, emotion, energy, movement, auditory, visual, and imaginal and using these seven channels along with I-language. They can communicate about their internal experience, what's moving in them, what they sense in their bodies, what emotions are coming up, what kind of energetic experience they're having. David Mars: And the intimacy of that speech with the audience of 100 therapists gets combined when the therapists are also speaking level, not speaking and pontificating, giving ideas or advice but are actually being moved and speaking from their own experience of their own hope that's being opened in them by Joanne and Mike and speaking from that hope and that joy and that honoring of Joanne and Mike for their struggle and for their breakthroughs, and for their being present with us. They flew all the way from San Francisco Bay Area to New Jersey to be there at that conference, and [chuckle] it's just quite a statement of their dedication to wanting to transform. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. Joanne, just to revisit something, we were talking about a moment ago, she mentions that one of the most powerful moments for her to witness was the moment where you... To say called her out isn't really exactly the right phrase, probably, but you highlighted how she was coming at Mike in a very cutting way and the beautiful way you said it, it was something like, "Are you perhaps mocking him right now?" but you said it in a way that wasn't at all talking down to her, it was just like, I'm inviting you to ponder, was that maybe mocking him? And she spoke to just the impact of, "Oh my goodness! Right, I am doing that. And that is, as you mentioned, not what I want to be doing." David Mars: Yeah, that's huge, that's huge. And I love this part about tapping in the middle of my forehead, the orbitofrontal cortex, the third eye in more mystical traditions. The orbitofrontal cortex is the senior executive that chooses how to be relational, how to be conscious or it can lay relatively dormant. [laughter] David Mars: If we're really actively choosing our partners in an atmosphere of love, choosing to want to be with them or even to want to want to be with them, as I mentioned earlier, to find the parts of us that are really open to moving away from argumentation and toward really saying, "What do we want to be understood?" As opposed to going for revenge or for an impact, to go instead for understanding is a major, major shift in consciousness and is an invitation to be recognized for the depth of what one wants to say and to bring the partner closer, even though it could be in the context of conflict. It does not have to be in the context of conflict, because I can speak about the part of me that wants the closeness. David Mars: I can also say how I feel saddened that I'm not reaching that, and particularly for a male in this world that I live in, to be soft, the one that I grew up in, in my family it was not such a wise strategy. To be tough, to be resistant rather than resilient, a lot of what I learned, and now in these many years, decades really of practice, how to be soft and responsive, is such a joy in marital relating, because it's so conducive to being understood. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. For me, what comes up is this vision of true responsiveness. David Mars: Yes. Neil Sattin: Like the more... What I particularly love of the many things in AEDP for couples is, how you're bringing people more and more online into their present moment experience and all the different channels, you just named the different channels of experience, we can maybe talk about that a little bit more. David Mars: Sure. Neil Sattin: But as a way of enhancing how you show up in the moment. So when you say softness, what I feel is my own like, "Oh yeah. It allows me to take in the world, to take in my partner." David Mars: Yes. Neil Sattin: And to not be bowled over by it, but also to really respond to it. I don't have to push back at it, I don't have to react to it, I don't have to shut down typical fight-flight responses. I don't have to do that because I'm learning how to feel that in the moment. David Mars: Yup. I like that. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I wonder if you could give... Just because I'm noticing we've been talking a little while without naming... I would love to hear from you what you feel are the unique features of AEDP for couples and how people learn to experience each other, and how therapists learned to work with couples and bridge, be a bridge of consciousness, as you were mentioning earlier. David Mars: Sure, yeah. I'd be happy to talk about that. I want to spring from what I heard you just saying about when a person knows they don't have to do anything, they're not required to do anything, but it's simply a choice. That's the key to me about AEDP for couples, it's about choosing, about the freedom, the liberty, the liberation from feeling constrained. I must do something for you. For many people already brings up resentment and a hardening inside, to submit one's own wishes to do the wishes and biddings of another. Part of the control struggle that is phase two in marriage. First stage, falling apart... [chuckle] into love, kind of disassembling into love, merging into love, being, kind of losing our senses into love. For many of us, it is how we fell in love, not all, but for many. And that merger state moves into the next state, which is control phase. Who's in control? David Mars: Who's driving this bus? "It's me." "No. It's me. I drive the kids and you drive at work." How do we actually have a life with two steering wheels in the vehicle and not have it be a battle? There's something about the quality that for me is in AEDP for couples, that is symbolized by a marriage ritual where there are three candles and that the two lit candles are the candles that represent each of the couple members, be they same-sex or heterosexual, and they come forward and they light together. The middle candle represents the marriage, but they don't blow out their separate candles. In some ceremonies, the individuals blow out their candles and the union is always left. David Mars: This is a major problem. It gives me chills to think about the fate of that couple that gives up their individuality to become merged into one, and for me, it's a mess that's invited, where one couple gets absorbed... One couple member gets absorbed into the other perhaps and submits to the other and the dying of the self is a tragedy that does not go well, for most couples in my experience. So when all three candles are lit, both individuals are thriving and bringing light into the world and to each other and the middle candle of their marriage is also doing this, that the children that come from that marriage can be, if there are children that come from it, can be loved and loving, and feel the joy the parents share with them as well. As part of that AEDP for couples model, that if the guiding light of love, the consciousness of love and the guiding principles of the whole body. David Mars: Mind, heart, and gut helping the couple members to discern what is right action, what is the correct and wise way to be right now with you my partner, my beloved, my chosen one? How do I be with you in a way right now because my habit right now would lead me into another direction, that I know is going off a cliff of sorts. I'm going to run into a brick wall of sorts. That habit is not my friend right now. How do I, in this moment of activation, of anxiety, of pressure, how do I find myself? Of exhaustion perhaps. How do I find myself freshly, consciously and be guided by my own body to do the un-thought known. David Mars: That's something that I haven't given thought of yet, but it suddenly springs to awareness. I can be like this with you. It's an actual creativity, and that creativity and living is so much part of how we humans, in fact, all sentient creatures can be creative, and I'm thinking about hummingbirds, for example, who are so, to me, remarkable in their durability, and resiliency to get through storms, and cold and rain and to still be there the next day at the hummingbird feeder at the Mexican sage getting sap from the flowers. How they do this is a miracle of their, to me, divine nature to be following their own guidance. They know how to raise a family, how to be directionally wise to go where it's warm, to go where there's food. David Mars: This is part of what the research of Northoff and Panksepp brought forward before Panksepp's untimely death this last year, the trans-species, neuro-biological core self, and this is a consciousness that's in living beings that is not just the high brain, but it's in some cortical areas as well, that guides us toward wise choices and it's tapping into this that AEDP for couples is specialized in, tapping into sentience and the knowing of the self, is biologically corrected and overrides early defenses and early habits that are not necessarily helpful. They're just habits. David Mars: And I want to say one more thinking about this, part of my joy is seeing couples take the best of each of their lineages, the best attributes what they learn through modeling through their parents through being raised, and surviving in that home their, true strengths, but they simply don't need to be all the space junk of everything else that their parents brought through their unresolved trauma that can be moved out of the back yard of this couple's lives and just cleaned up. It does not need to be that the replication of traumas with the couple has to endure together, but rather the healing of trauma through kind firmness. There's a clarity of mind and heart that are really dedicated to having a life that really thrives. That's really the core of AEDP for couples. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I'm thinking of a couple things one like a really kinda broad concept and one like a very specific thing. The broad one being, what we spoke about in the very beginning of our conversation, that the work is about accessing those core states of being and how we bring them to each other. And along with joy and sadness is your lust and sexuality. This is the work you were just referring to and your ability to bring all of those things online is related to your ability to shed your defenses and your defensive states, not in a like laying yourself bare kind of way, but in a practicing new habits of interaction, new habits of handling big emotions, which also seems like something that AEDP and AEDP for couples is really strong at helping people with. Neil Sattin: And then the specific thing that popped into mind is, when you ask people, "How do you know that you're having this experience?" Can you talk a little bit about that question because I think it's such a lovely invitation to bring people more into their awareness and also, to combat the projection, that so often is happening. David Mars: Very well put Neil. Yes, and rather than operating by projection which is... Projection is necessary if you don't have sufficient information of what's going on and projection is not a bad thing, it's just that it's sort of inaccurate often, its approximate and often has our own stuff laced into it or it very confusing and sort of it condemns the other person if we follow projection as our way of understanding our partner, it condemns them to having our internal material put on them rather than really seeing them truly for who they are. Its very lonely to live like that. Neil Sattin: Right. David Mars: So for me, one of the beauties is when couple members have an experience of discernment. I'm noticing, oh, my gosh, my partner right now is smiling at me. I could have totally missed that had my therapist not pointed it out. She's smiling at me and I love her smile and I suddenly realize that her eyes are bright, she still has a light in her eyes even though it's just being disassociated, just that I lost track of where she was in the room even. Lost track of the fact she was actually here. And I was just talking to myself in a way and that moment of seeing more clearly in the foreground awareness that my love for her is in my heart, and I can actually feel heat in my heart. And then this is a quote from a session where the man says, "This is weird, there's heat in my heart. It's so weird." And she says, "I've been waiting for you to say that for 23 years." [laughter] David Mars: "I am so glad to hear you have heat in your heart looking at me when I'm smiling at you." And then he says, "It's actually more like warmth. It's so weird." And I could just... It brings tears to my eyes to imagine a lifetime of his life before meeting her then 23 years later, that she's still waiting for him to feel a warmth in his heart and know the warmth is real and he can trust it and therefore he can trust her and relax his defenses against her hurting him or being less than. And there's something so liberating that that moment changes everything. David Mars: Once the feeling heart isn't just a pump, is actually a heart that feels and knows that sentience of being is with him. This is not a man who studies consciousness. He's a businessman. It doesn't matter, he could be a military person, he could be a dentist, it could be a doctor, whatever it is, we all have hearts of knowing, particularly if we can train ourselves to listen to them, and hear our whole bodies how they can speak to us and get this tingling in my fingertips, I'm having right now, as I'm speaking with you, as an energetic state that relates to the excitement I feel in this conversation and that if I can relax myself a little bit and slow my speech I can feel a heart movement. David Mars: I can start to notice how my muscles can start to relax. I can start to let my excitement tone down some, so I can feel more of the sense of grounded-ness in my chair, the sensation of my chair seat and my chair back behind me and the floor beneath me, supporting me, I can feel I'm really here more grounded with you. I can begin to hear that in my voice, so the auditory channel, come online. I can feel the deeper resonance of my voice coming in. The quality of this self-reflection in this moment that is so much about the sensations, the movement, the auditory, the visual, the whole imaginal field that come alive in me when I imagine the possibility of this being heard by so many of your listeners and just there's something about that awareness and any moment for any couple member's life, any therapist's life, to know I can choose right now to get more grounded and connect more deeply with myself, simply because I want to, is a great freedom. Neil Sattin: So this is so powerful and I want to spend just a little bit more time here and the invitation for you listening or watching, if you're watching is to tune in to each of these aspects of your experience, because at any given moment, you can bring your awareness to them and that will help do what David has been talking about, to bring you more into a sense of presence with your partner and more of a knowing, "How do I know that my partner trusts me, right now, how do I know that I'm safe with them? How do I know that I'm angry? How do I know that they're angry with me because I might be interpreting something that isn't actually happening?" So and to be clear too, you use these channels of experience in a therapeutic way as well, because as a therapist being able to tune in to what's happening in your experience and the overall field experience of what's happening between you and your clients, you're able to wake up in them, all of these dimensions of their experience with each other to things that are happening in their body that they may have not even been aware of. David Mars: Yes. Thank you for that Neil. I'm aware of this two-part way, that I can interact with a couple. One is, how do you know that right now you're feeling sad, or I could even say, how do you know that the wetness on your shirt, the wetness on your cheek is saying something to you and the person literally says, "Really. Oh, right my cheek is wet right." I guess I'm sad. Oh, I am, I'm sad". And then he says to his daughter... Sorry his step-daughter, who is on a video monitor, cause it wasn't really safe for her to come into the session. Cause they had such rancorous exchanges with each other, she's on a video monitor instead, on Zoom, as we are in this session, you and I. And he says, "I'm sorry that I hurt you. I'm sad that I hurt you." David Mars: And she's so shocked because his boarding school in Britain didn't train him to be this way, the beatings that he got from age seven on taught him to never cry. And the tears are leaking out unbidden unknown until he sees them on his shirt and he feels them on his face, and suddenly it brings chills into my legs and my back to feel the power of his being able to apologize for that totally shocks his wife, that totally shocks his wife of 22 years. David Mars: Totally shocks his step-daughter and she begins to weep just weeping and he's weeping and she's weeping and her mother's weeping in this couple session with the daughter there, who's 43, and we're all with tears and the feeling of the mercy of his breakthrough based on him for seeing the tears on his shirt. Answering the question, what do the tears want to say? How can you tell what the tears want to say? And suddenly his apology comes completely out of the blue. And a man who does not apologize particularly not from the heart. I could say as him, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Which, that's not an apology. But in this case, that dearness of his true self, the true core neurobiological self of him breaks through the defenses and suddenly his face is soft, his eyes are loving and his wife and daughter get to see him. At this moment she's his daughter, not his step-daughter, she really is in this united experience that she wants to be in with him as part of family. And the reunion happens this way. It's just so touching. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I can feel that, that that is an example of how we transform in an instant. David Mars: Yes. Neil Sattin: Yeah. David Mars: This is very true. Neil Sattin: And can you highlight because you've gone through them quickly, but can we just spend maybe 10 seconds on each of the channels of experience so we can all really take in what they each are? David Mars: Sure. Neil Sattin: Yeah? David Mars: Yeah. So sensation right now, probably I'll just say, the sensations I can notice are a fine hum that I feel throughout the surface of my body, the sensations of the hairs of the back of my neck, the sensations of my muscles becoming more relaxed, the sensations of my vocal cords and my voice again slowing down. The sensations of resonance in my chest as I'm speaking. Neil Sattin: Great. David Mars: And the auditory channel linking with the sensations that validate that what I'm feeling in my vocal cords and in my chest vibration is related to the pitch of my voice dropping and the quality of hearing my own breath coming in, the friction of my breath is part of that auditory channel that helps me to pace myself in my breathing which is central to self-regulation as a therapist or a partner in a marriage, and the quality of the tonal, the slight raspiness of my voice, the gravely-ness of my voice, the drop in for me is part of the feeling of gratitude for the grace of being with this couple that I just spoke of from last Thursday and to think of the channel of emotion. Mad, sad, glad, scared, disgust and surprise are the six categorical emotions. David Mars: Many of us have one emotion that we specialize in that we can really access and regulate quite well. Perhaps there are other emotions that we don't do quite as well with that are very difficult for us to regulate. But to be regulated in all six emotions is part of the goal of AEDP for couples and AEDP. To be able to be with surprise for example and say, "My gosh, I was surprised you said that. And now I'm still surprised you said that and I'm still feeling the delight in surprise that I'm having this experience with you right now, Neil, I feel so joyful and so connected. David Mars: And to feel surprise is not a fleeting moment, but one that I can continue to experience again and again as a surprise of the enlightenment of moments that are so... Are so precious and dear because they are literally unbidden, they just come sometimes. And if we go on... Surprise really is one of the categorical emotions that is most often missed by therapists because it happens and comes and goes so quickly. Present tense experience of surprise can remain for a lifetime. David Mars: A surprise for example, when I'm 13 years old and I'm really asking for a sign that God exists and suddenly I feel, and see, and sense energetically I'm filled with this purple energy in my... Above my solar plexus, just between my heart and my gut, and it stays with me today at age 67. I was 13 years old, I am 13 years old in this hand dug cave and I have this energy of response and this powerful, powerful combination of imaginal seeing the purple energy, the body sensation of the energy filling my whole body as light, the body sensation throughout my body still now feeling a head to toe experience of being occupied by a sense of some deep surprise, that also is something that was so deeply longed for and wanted as a sense of validation that I'm not alone. So when we think about the emotion of this, for me, it's a combination of the gratitude and the sadness of having missed that in the previous 12 and a half years of my life, and now to feel that joy and connection with still having this as a presence. David Mars: So in terms of what we've covered now, are sensation, energy, emotion, think about movement, as I'm giving these, counting these out my fingers are involuntarily showing automatically showing a counting of four, and these movements are moved by the anterior cingulate in the brain unconsciously, but they inform what I'm saying as I move from my heart out to you the audience to be able to know I'm really wanting to come from my heart and speak, knowing that I deeply, deeply care about, about AEDP for couples and about love and the healing power of love and how hand gestures can also be involuntarily showing push away or put down, or harsh measures of threat that are unconscious, and seen by the other more clearly than by the self often. That is part of the value of tracking movement channel, to my mind its the most unconscious of all channels because it's also clearly visible that it's happening to others but maybe not to us. David Mars: So we have sensation, emotion, energy, movement, auditory, and imaginal. Let's speak about the imaginal channel. The imaginal channel contains the other six channels. I can have imagined emotion, I can have imagined experiences of moving of being free when I'm feeling stuck and I can imagine my couple member and I being joyful, my partner Karen and I being joyful, and in that imagining of joy I bring the biochemistry of joy into my body, the oxytocin, the dopamine, the citicoline come into my body and my brain cells. All the neurons of my body are affected by the imagination of love, being pure and true, and reliable and resilient. David Mars: So for me, it's an upwelling of a combination of energetic thrill and emotional gratitude that it's possible to be 35 years into a marriage and be joyful about it and feel tears in my eyes, the sensation of tears in my eyes that we have this. Not that it's a permanent... That could be just uncultivated because marriage always has to be cultivated. In my mind, either a marriage is improving or devolving at any moment. David Mars: This is not a guarantee. Oh yeah, we're set now. There's no set part of it for me. It's a living organism. So for me that's the channels of experience. I'll just say them again sensation, emotion, energy, movement, auditory, visual, and imaginal. I didn't overtly say the visual part. I just want to mention visual channels are essential to us humans, to see eye expressions, to see facial coloration, to see markers of tension, in ourselves and others, and to be very conscious about our own peripheral vision of our movement. So I'm aware of what I'm actually signaling. It's a great gift to know what I'm actually signaling to my partner or just someone else in the grocery store, whatever, I'm actually showing myself. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Perfect, thank you for giving us the rundown, and I like too in terms of the imaginal, I love that it contains all of those, and I also find that they're such a gift often in those images that come to us. I often offer those in my coaching sessions with clients and Chloe and I, that's part of how we interact with each other, my wife. This image just came to me of blah, blah, and so often that has a really positive and deepening impact on our interaction. David Mars: Absolutely. What a transcendent function to have, to share between you and Chloe. Neil Sattin: We're lucky. David Mars: Absolutely. Neil Sattin: And we practice it, as you were just alluding to. It requires attention. David before we go, this has been such a rich conversation, I could talk to you for another hour easily cause this time has flown by. Hopefully, we will have the chance to talk again. David Mars: I hope so. Neil Sattin: First, I do have a question for you, but I'm wondering... Let's just talk about how people can find out more about your work and if they want to work with you, or if they want to train with you, what's available to then? David Mars: Well, there's a website, the Center for transformative Therapies website, which is, the URL is C-F-T-T site, so it's C-F-T-T-S-I-T-E.com, and also the AEDP Institute site, A-E-D-P Institute, both have programs and training that I'm giving. A five-day program in Cape Cod that will be happening this summer and also in July and also one in Vancouver, Canada will be happening, another five-day training in Vancouver in June, and also other workshops that I give that are local and international and ongoing that'll be on their websites. Also, I give intensives for couples that want to fly in to have a weekend intensive, and also group work. Where a group work can come together and decide they want to fly in to work with me or fly me out to work them to facilitate group work that's transformational. David Mars: And that's direct delivery to people that may want that, couples groups, for example, can fly me in or religious organizations, church organizations can fly me in. And the power of the work is so joyful to deliver because in a day or in an afternoon or two days so much can happen that really changes lives in a forward-moving way. You mentioned coaching, Neil, I'm so glad for that because it's something that's so important in the world to have this capacity, not just psychotherapy to work deeper but also coaching to work deeply. Neil Sattin: Thank you, and we will have links to your sites on the show notes for this episode, and as a reminder if you want to download the show notes and transcript you can visit NeilSattin.Com/Mars, M-A-R-S, which is David's last name, or you can text the word passion to the number 33444 and follow the instructions, and David, I'm curious, do you have time for one more question? David Mars: I do. Neil Sattin: Okay great. David Mars: I do. Neil Sattin: There are actually so many more, so it's challenging for me to pick one, but I'm curious so many couples who listen to this show, so many are married, many are not married. David Mars: Yes, yes. Neil Sattin: And I'm wondering, there's something about being married obviously that elevates our levels of commitments to each other, most of us. How do you work with couples who aren't married, and who are in that dance around, I'm not even sure... You know they could be asking the very same questions that a married couple would be asking like, "Are you the right one for me, do I still want to be in this. Wow, this is really hard, part of me has a foot out the door." Is there something extra that you bring, or that you would invite for a couple that's not hitched as a way of helping then actually stick with the work that's required in order to figure out maybe those questions that they have about each other? David Mars: Yeah, I appreciate the question. You know the DVD set called Infidelity that is about trauma treatment and a case of infidelity, was of a couple that was not married, and they are still not married. They're still very deeply connected and committed, in having a joyful experience of relating, which I just saw one of the couple members just in a restaurant just recently and she was quite radiant and very grateful for the work, which happened five years ago. We're not doing the work anymore, but it's still living in their lives. So the marriage part isn't required, but it certainly does help from my point of view for many, many of us to have a commitment of marriage, to have that knowing my partner is with me in a way that has some kind of a substance beyond our decision making unto ourselves. David Mars: And for me, a couple I'm working with now that is actually not married and they have a child and they're in the process of dissolution of their living together due to some pretty ingrained issues that are not, they're not remedying. I've only seen them twice, but they came in really this direction of unlinking with each other but keeping, of course, the responsibility of parenting. And for me it's a major joy in my life and a major piece of meaning to see that even couples who have never married can be deeply committed, even couples that have a child and who end up not continuing to be in a relationship can be loving parents of that child and can be wonderful co-parents even without living together, even without being married, but can still be in that place of that child coming up with a strong and secure attachment. If they haven't gotten that secure attachment already, they can develop that secure attachment over time by living with parents who are growing and transforming themselves. Neil Sattin: And so for a couple who's let's say, there may be a little bit more in. So they're not actually dissolving but they don't have the, we're married to rely upon. Is there something, is there a way that you invite those couples to find safety, the safety that's kind of inherent in a marriage vow, because I know, as you just mentioned, "Okay, we're in this. We got married". And divorce as common as it is hard and challenging and requires a lot to make happen. So yeah, how to deal with the paradox of safety in a relationship where they haven't spoken vows with each other. David Mars: Yeah exactly. And for me, I want to give the example of polyamory, which is funnily one of the most challenging ways to be in relationship that exists on the planet. I know many people are very keen on that. It works for them but the couples that I've known who have done that work on polyamory, it is a very, very complicated process, and for me, the safety experience is really, in many cases about how securely attached is this person to themselves? There's a recent song lyric I was listening to of an old song, "And I know you won't let me down because I have my feet so firmly on the ground". David Mars: In truth, we're all vulnerable to having our heart broken, no matter how strong we are, and it's one of the greatest agonies that can be, to have a lost love in my experience, and also in research as well, but to be able to feel the truth of one's words is real, that one's actions and one's words match to me that's part of the integrity of married or unmarried, whatever it is, that can help couples to feel truly safe and truly believable and believed is to really make sure that our actions and our words match. That our apologies are followed by corrected action, not just words that sound good, and actually a commitment to live differently. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and a commitment to be in that process of the experience of earned secure attachment with your own being, and I've seen how that even changes what people ask for in relationship. I've experienced that myself, I've seen it in others, so yes, that I think is a great way of confronting that, I'm always safe in me and then I can bring that into however complicated this situation is to try and resolve it for the better. David Mars: Yeah. Wonderful. Neil Sattin: David. It is such a treat to have you here. I really appreciate your time, your wisdom, your work. AEDP and AEDP for couples is such a powerful modality and I'm really delighted that you were able to be here, to share with us, and I hope that for those of you watching and listening, that your curiosity is peaked and you're going to seek ways out of experiencing this for yourself. But, David, I have such appreciation for your work in the world and the way that that's rippling out from here and from the other ways that you're training people and working with people, it's super powerful. David Mars: Thank you so much. What an honor to be in this conversation, with you and to be asked questions I've not been asked, before. Neil Sattin: Oh. Good. [laughter] David Mars: Yeah. It was a joy to be with you and I hope we get to speak again in another podcast another time. Neil Sattin: Great, great, we'll make that happen for sure. David Mars: Okay, bye. Bye.

Aisha works as a therapist, healer, author and social justice facilitator in London. She practices shamanic healing and energy medicine. Her practices are based on a holistic understanding that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. Aisha's work is heart-centred, and influenced by transpersonal psychology models of Carl Jung, Arnold Mindell (processwork), and mystic traditions within Advaita, Sufism, Buddhism and classical shamanism. Aisha is trained in different disciplines that allow us to engage in deeper dimensions of our body and psyche for the purpose of awakening, transformation and moving towards wholeness. She has undergone 5 years of training and initiation in the shamanic healing arts to professional practitioner level. This has recently been complemented by a 1 year training in embodied awareness with Processwork UK. Aisha is Master level in Energy Healing (Usui Reiki lineage) and is trained in crystal healing. She is a qualified Clinical Hypnotherapist and a Master Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) practitioner. Hypnotherapy and NLP are coaching or talking therapies that allow us come in to relaxed states, where we can access unexpressed parts of ourselves, to heal inner conflict, and the cause of patterns that may be holding us back. Aisha is also meditation teacher, and applies mindfulness to connect us with our deep awareness and the compassionate intelligence of the heart which can aid us with the wisdom required to transcend our suffering. Aisha is also a founding associate in the field of Creative Hypnosis, founded by Lisa Morgan, utilising the power of trance for creativity, creative leaps and creative problem solving. Outside of her therapeutic work, Aisha is a co-founder and director of a race equality social enterprise, and still runs social justice projects and offers diversity and inclusion consultancy. Aisha takes inspiration from nature, and she enjoys work that reclaims our relationship with the elements, working in alliance with the balance, spirit and intelligence of the natural world. Aisha works with individuals, groups and businesses to work towards wholeness and raise the vibration of what we create in our lives. Aisha's debut book The Crystal Compass is available on Amazon now.

You may know personal development entrepreneur Sean Croxton as the world’s biggest nerd who blew up YouTube when he created one of the first health-based video channels (Underground Wellness) more than a decade ago.Paul talks to Sean for his Living 4D With Paul Chek podcast about his journey that started and continues with a simple need to help people.Show NotesSean talks HLC 1. (1:29)Elliott Hulse is Sean’s Internet grandfather. (2:19)How do you learn to love yourself? (3:58)Sean: I just want to help people. (5:43)Loren Cordain’s article on grains and gluten intolerances is a badass piece of work. (7:57)Sean begins his podcasting career. (10:40)Sean’s transition to personal development. (12:42)How do you sell health? (15:40)Identifying your dream. (16:50)How much time can a client commit to their health without it becoming a burden they want to avoid? (20:06)Don’t give clients more than four action items. (26:14)How hard is it to change a habit? (27:44)What inspires you to change? (33:19)Do you believe in emotional addiction? (38:06)The questions any skilled Shaman asks her/his clients. (39:45)How do you create emotional fulfillment and a sense of connection to something greater than yourself? (41:12)When does a person become an adult? (49:50)Culture is a bunch of people doing the same things. (Arnold Mindell) (53:09)Is there something in our modern society that signifies initiation for men in our culture? (59:40)Paul’s definition of being an adult. (1:04:01)How many coaches and therapists are real adults? (1:05:04)The origins of Paul’s Holistic Lifestyle Coaching programs. (1:06:40)What it means to be truly authentic. (1:10:40)If humans don’t become adults, our species will be extinguished. (1:17:51)Is the reality we see just a reflection of the general consciousness split? (1:23:34)Is Donald Trump a Pain Teacher? (1:29:13)Always finding something good in every problem. (1:31:13)Do we need to respect more and different opinions due to the divisiveness in the world? (1:35:40)If we don’t protect the environment, how can we create safety and security for each other? (1:45:10)When you raise your own consciousness, you raise the consciousness of the whole. (1:47:22)Scientists have become modern prostitutes. (1:51:22)Our habits become our results in life. (1:55:30)Knowing that everyone has greatness in them is important. (1:57:14)ResourcesCereal Grains: Humanity’s Double-Edged Sword by Loren Cordain from Evolutionary Aspects of Nutrition and HealthElliott HulseArnold MindellRupert SheldrakeMarshall RosenbergBarbara Marx HubbardSally Fallon and Mary EnigNapoleon HillRichard WilhelmBob ProctorHolistic Lifestyle Coach

Racism is in the air we breathe, the water we swim in. We all are conditioned by it and it affects the interactions we have with one another. The UNtraining supports us in being aware of our conditioning and letting go of it. Host Marlena Willis talks with Robert Horton, cofounder of the UNtraining, and Kathleen Rice, an UNtraining teacher. Robert Horton is co-founder and co-director of the UNtraining. He is a white man with a passionate interest in undoing racism and a belief that this process begins with oneself. Robert has been working with Rita Shimmin since 1994, studying her approach to multi-dimensionality which she calls Racism, Diversity and Risk of the Self. The UNtraining is based on their work together. Robert studied Process Work with Arnold Mindell and has practiced Tibetan Buddhism for more than 30 years.   Kathleen Rice initially joined the UNtraining in 2000, hoping to find the magic trick that she could use to get other white people to work to end racism and white supremacy. That's not what she got. Instead, she has found something more sustainable, effective, and fulfilling — support for deeply feeling the pain of injustice as well as the joy of community. So instead of fueling her already developed skills of self-righteousness, guilt, shame and judgment, she has and continues to expand her capacity to better access the love, compassion, power, playfulness and joy she brings and receives in doing this work. The post The UNtraining appeared first on KPFA.

Appreciative Inquiry (AI) is a methodology used to create positive change. When you are looking for ways to positively create impact, you will find AI to be a way of moving forward that is co-creative, generative and sustainable. In Episode 17, we share the five principles of AI and how most of the tools we’ve shared in previous episodes are embedded in this process. And the great news is that you will find this approach to be applicable in your organization, your business, your community or your family. Resources mentioned in this episode: 1. Appreciative Inquiry Principles: https://appreciativeinquiry.champlain.edu/learn/appreciative-inquiry-introduction/5-classic-principles-ai/ 2. Book: Sitting in the Fire, Large group transformation using conflict and diversity by Arnold Mindell: https://www.amazon.com/Sitting-Fire-Transformation-Conflict-Diversity/dp/1619710242 Worksheet, an Ai Exercise for You: http://jackielesser.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Worksheet-Episode-17-Appreciative-Inquiry.pdf

002 Breathing Human Reflection - Jane Eyre reading by E. Jacques - Audio from Breathe film (https://youtu.be/5XA-I8D6GAw) - reading from work by Arnold Mindell (http://aamindell.net) --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/intuitive/support

Leticia Mendoza (México) En esta entrevista Leticia Mendoza nos habla de: Cómo el método “Process Work” (Trabajo orientado al proceso) de Arnold Mindell ayuda al facilitador a encarar tanto asuntos personales internos como los de la dinámica del grupo. La importancia de hacernos conscientes de las formas en que cada uno de nosotros puede convertirse en héroe o en villano y cómo aparece esta polaridad en un proceso grupal. El papel del facilitador para ayudar a los miembros del grupo a notar y expresar las cosas difíciles que deben decirse. Las dinámicas de inclusión y exclusión en un grupo.

What is reality? Why do people in extreme states feel connected to the universe, and experience uncanny and even supernatural events? Does quantum physics have something to teach us about madness? What if therapists were like indigenous tribal shamans, entering into clients' "psychotic" worlds as if stepping into a dream? Arnold Mindell studied with pioneering scientists Richard Feynman and Norbert Wiener and then became a Jungian therapist and founder of Process Oriented Psychology. He discusses his more than 40 years of work with individuals and groups, including people diagnosed with psychosis, and the ancient belief in a purposeful dreaming reality behind everyday events.   [Read more...]

Counselor and researcher Joe Goodbread discusses his more than 25 years experience working with madness and extreme states using Process Oriented Psychology, an innovative approach based in the work of Carl Jung and developed by Arnold Mindell. Joe describes listening to the meaning in experience, helping people unfold their states, taoism, dreams, rank differences, and working with the body. Joe is a senior faculty at the Process Work Institute and author of The Dreambody Toolkit and Radical Intercourse. www.aamindell.net, www.processwork.org   [Read more...]

Lane Arye talks about unintentional creativity in music.