Podcasts about what what

I'd like to ask you, Mark Childs, Daniel Sayles, and Daniel Helm, if you could identify what is the biggest risk?   Daniel Helm   I can go first on that, I would say the biggest risk would be not making that last call. One more call that potential opportunity, at the end of the day, at last dial the day, the easy dial to just say, Hey, we're not going to do it. potential opportunity to help a client prospective client, someone that you know, has an opportunity, but all you need to do is pick up that phone. So to not make that last dial is huge. And one thing we preach here at Capacity is one more call.    Daniel Sayles   Yeah, mine kind of ties into that as well. For me, the biggest risk for me is always being uncomfortable. I feel like in this job, if you're comfortable, and you think you know everything, there's something you're missing in the deal, there's something that you're not asking the landlord, there's something that you're not asking your client. So sometimes I just like getting uncomfortable and maybe asking the landlord for something I typically wouldn't do or asking my client, you know, or a prospective client when I walk into their business and talk to them. Just having that conversation with them and letting them know that I care and it might seem awkward at the time but it'll go far, you know, down the road if they start working with me.   Daniel Helm   Get comfortable being uncomfortable.    Daniel Sayles   Yeah.   Mark Childs   I would put it you know there's lots of risk everywhere. But to keep it simple, you know, in the biz, when you're out showing someone a property to start with the difficult questions. What What is the sprinkler rating here? You know, what is code? Will this use really fit here? Okay, it's a multi tenant Park. That looks like a lot of space. Let's go out and pace it off? Is that really enough room for your trucks to come in? You know, a conventional sleeper with a 53 footers 72 feet that takes a lot of room. Oh, by the way, you're gonna have a lot of parking. It looks like there's parking now, but we got to learn about the tenants nearby how much parking they're going to need. The flip side on the biz, I think what I've learned through the years is don't try to do something that you're not good at. I'm blessed, I have a lot of people calling me through time for advice on their real estate problem. And more often than not, I'm, I let them know yes call me first but by the way, odds are I won't be the one solving it but I'm going to know who to recommend for solving that. Not much anymore retail, restaurant or other food group category a problem.

Welcome to the Thinking Big Podcast. You are in for such a treat today with my special guest Sandra Haseley. Sandra is one of the founders of Generation Impact, a group that exists to help you refine, develop, launch, scale, and MASTER your business to create the impact and life you desire. Sandra is one of the select few keynote speakers for Tony Robbins and Dean Graziosi in their Knowledge Broker Blueprint program, and she is currently helping to build and head train their workshops for new entrepreneurs launching their businesses. One of my key takeaways from this episode is that every single one of us has a gift that we can build a business around, she even said I could use fluency in sarcasm as a platform… who would have known.  Today we are thinking big into your passions and your Impact on the world. Generation Impact: Generationimpactgroup.com   Connect With Sandra Haseley on Social Media Facebook Profile: https://www.facebook.com/SandraHaseleyCO Facebook Business Page: https://www.facebook.com/SANDRAHASELEYANDCO Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesandrahaseleyco/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandrahaseley/ Email: heyboss@sandrahaseley.com Website: https://www.sandrahaseley.com   Leaders are Readers, here are some free books for you to get. Free copy of Think and Grow Rich http://bit.ly/free-think-and-grow-rich-ebook   The 14-day Think and Grow Rich Challenge https://bit.ly/tagrchallenge   Free Audibles book http://bit.ly/thinkingbigaudible   Connect with Sean Osborn at Thinking Big Coaching http://www.thinkingbigcoaching.com https://www.instagram.com/thinkingbigcoaching/ https://www.facebook.com/thinkingbigcoaching/   Until next week, remember to always think big Thanks for listening! It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favorite player using the links below.   Episode Transcription SUMMARY KEYWORDS people, online, big, business, life, paid, clients, helping, steps, years, build, live, sarcasm, impact, Sandra Haseley, world, gift, degree   I want to welcome Sandra to the to the podcast. And if people are listening to this right now, and they're driving, I'm just fair warning, I'm just telling you, you better pull over keep your seatbelt on, because   01:39 it's Sandra is fast and furious. And you better be paying attention when she's talking because I normally can't even write that fast. I try but but I can't do it.   01:51 So keep your seatbelts on keep your hands in the car, but pull over because you're about ready to go on a ride should tell you, I'm just being honest here. I'm still I am still catching up on notes from our last stuff that you did. So I'm still trying to get my notes down. So welcome. Welcome to the show. Tell people a little bit that your story is absolutely fascinating where you've been and how you've gone. And that's, I really like to focus in on some of that. Because I think today, I mean, you've seen that kind of the gig economy, the side economy, these people starting their own, you know, their own businesses last couple years. But I think with what's happening with COVID   02:32 it's not just on the verge anymore. I mean, it is people are having to go and kind of do their own thing. And we just don't know how we don't know, we don't know how and you and that's what you've done. I mean, you've done this your whole your whole career. So tell us a little bit about you and kind of what the mindset are kind of what drove you to to where you are now.   02:52 Sure, yeah. I mean, I I went through the traditional model, like, like a lot of people did through, you know, I got a, I got a scholarship to play division one softball, and so I went that route. And I studied engineering, finance marketing, I graduated with a finance degree and, and I went into commercial real estate into commercial mortgage brokerage, and, and then continued on into to work for a commercial real estate developer. And in that space, I was because I was the director of sales for this company, it was important to make sure that the tenants were doing well, so that they could, you know, continue to pay rent and grow into additional properties or whatever. So I from very, very early on in my career, I was not only analyzing the back end and their financials, and looking at the way that they did their business to make sure that these loans would get approved. But I'm also nurturing them as tenants on you know, through the years making sure that I could help them in any way that I could. And I became somewhat of a tenant coach for all of these different tenant clients. And there are so many different industries. I mean, like every industry that you can think of the between the mom and pop retail stuff to the International, like international freight to e commerce attack, like everything. And so it was, you know, that that aside, I had carried that on throughout my entire, you know, corporate career. And it wasn't until I actually got fired from my job, where I just I just closed a $14.6 million deal got fired, didn't get the bonus that I was supposed to get got walking papers instead where I was like, What now? Now what? And then, you know, from that point that was like, that was my career rock bottom for sure. I didn't think that was possible because I was the highest performer in the company. And I had such a great reputation in the community. And my resume was just stellar. So how did that happen? This wasn't like, I didn't want to be an entrepreneur. It did not want that. Right. That sounds so scary to me, because I consider myself very risk averse.   04:57 And the safety net that I had been told   05:00 Throughout the traditional education model, get a job on retirement 401k savings pension if you can, and then you know, and then you live in your golden years. And that's that. So do your best work and all that. And that was a lie. So now I'm sitting here in this space where it's like, all right, your best shot at this point, when unemployment Wait, rates were very high, and they didn't have an employment, long run employment available any longer. It was like sink or swim. So I didn't want it. But I had to do it. If you look back at that, do you think that was probably the biggest blessing that you had?   05:35 Oh, for sure. Yeah, for two years. It was a it was depression. And it wasn't until I, you know, climbed out of that, that I look back. And I like when I drive by that, that former employer, every single time I'm in my car going, Thank You, Jesus, that you close that door for me, I would never have left on my own. And I know that it wouldn't, because you're scared. And I didn't think that it would have been a good life for me. Do you ever want to get a softball and just throw it at him? Get one, nice.   06:05 For a long time I did. I was a pitcher   06:09 or disappear. But I did for a while and my kids are my older two. I have four kids, my older two can remember when that happened. And and they're 13 and 15. Now, and we'll sometimes we'll drive by there and they'll say like, Hey, Mom, like you still mad? I'm like, no more, but they remember when I would drive my son.   06:30 So yeah, but yeah, no, you're right. It's it was the biggest blessing ever. And, and it was I was pushed off the ledge like a baby bird and learn to fly. And because of that, I was like, Wait a second. This is so much fun. Not only is this fun, but like this is nothing I went to school for I went to school finance, marketing, engineering, nothing I learned in university and I loved my school, not a single thing can I apply to my entrepreneurial journey here. So I'm looking at all of this differently. Right after that happened after like my first year in business on my own, and brick and mortar opening a wellness clinic, my husband's a chiropractor. So opening this wellness clinic, and everyone's saying three to five years take three to five years to get in the black. And it took me 18 months to turn six figures. So I did that without loans, without partnerships without affiliates, without any client base at all. So when I did that, I thought, Wait a second, like how if everybody in this space is telling us, this isn't possible for three to five years? What did we do, right? That I can help other people do right? So that they can save time. And like I know what it's like to be, you know, mother of four, trying to figure out what to do brand new and entrepreneurial journey and and if I got it right, I need to help other people because three to five years sounds like torture to me to get to where we needed to be right. So that's where it all started. And, and after that after the clinic opened, and we started doing really well we paint became the highest rated weight loss provider in the buffalo market. And I was like, This wasn't my dream. I did this out of necessity, my husband was happy. But what about me, um, and I went back to my roots, like I loved I loved being a consultant, I loved being a strategist for other businesses, I helped them that was meaningful, like that made their lives better that that helped them advance in their career, or it helped them earn more money for their families like that was meaningful to me. And I've had so much fun doing it ever since. Yeah. And again, I think with what's happened with the, you know, with the economy with the, you know, COVID with all the stuff that is going to be the way of the future, I really think it is I mean, it's going to be how we do things, and we have to learn these tools. I mean, we have to know what we're doing. And as you said, when we find someone that has been there when we find someone that's done that, why not go that route and learn from learn from them. I mean, that's the only way. Absolutely. And just curious, like when you were doing your your corporate stuff. It sounds like you were still using, I hate to say entrepreneur stuff, but you were to me, you were still thinking outside the box to help them outside of what your normal job was. So Oh, yes, yeah, you're right. Yeah, I never looked at it that way. But I yeah, you're right. And, um, it wasn't a It wasn't until like later on, like, maybe recently even that I thought, um, I wasn't taught that. But it was why was I doing it that way, when I know other people in my business weren't doing it that way for their clients and their tenants. It's, it's actually because I cared about them so much. And so I'm looking at them and it wasn't like, Um, let's see how we can get more money out of these clients. Let's squeeze them It looks like you know, it was more like, you have a relationship with them as they become your client. And you get to know them and you like them. And then they tell you about their goals and you are emotionally invested in their goals and you're thinking of ways that you can help them and   10:00 doesn't cost me anything to give them a good idea. And so when something sparks for me, and I give them a good idea, they apply it and they win. I'm going, ooh, what else can I give up? You know, and so that's kind of where that began. And then that led to further success for me, um, you know, through my clients in business, but, but it was like, it was like, an itch I needed to scratch like, I have to help people if I can, I have to. So um, but you're right, those those those things that I was applying weren't taught to me. But um, but I think that we all have, we all have these, like, these baked in skill sets that we can offer other people. And we never really tap into them unless the environment is like nurturing it, right? So like, unless you step into that space, and then all of a sudden, you're like, Oh, I'm good at this, or Oh, I've got something to offer. And then that, like, that's your thing. And like you touched on, you talked about how this is COVID. And this COVID here this whole year, has pushed people out of necessity into what are you going to do now? Like I was, but you know, different circumstances, like, what am I going to do now? And they have to learn? It's like, this is the scary thing for people like what Seriously? What do we do now? I have no idea. And I don't want to own a business and don't know how I'm so when it comes to that. It sounds It almost sounds childish for me to even advise, hey, what's your thing? What are you good at that little thing that you do, or that thing that lights you up doesn't even feel like work? I'm telling you to lean into that, like go into that space, there are a million ways you can apply your your your God given gifts into the business space and serve people at a high level and get paid for it. Most people don't believe that they can because they never have. I think and and i'm saying time to drop that nonsense. It's not even true. Whoever gave you that belief get over it. Like it's not true. It's bullshit. I mean, it truly is. bs, or it's your Bs, it's your belief system. And it's a it's a bad, it's about. And on top of that. People don't necessarily think that their gifts that they have, they don't see the value in him. I think that's the biggest thing that I see when I'm talking with people is they're good at something. But they do not see the value in it themselves. And that's one of the hardest things I have and talking with people is no, that is an absolute value. That is people want to know that people want to people will pay you for that knowledge. And so so, you know, first step is letting them letting them see, you know, what's the big How do you let people see what their, what their gift is? I mean, what are ways that people can say, Oh, this is my truly, you know, this is my gift. This is what I can give. Yeah, first of all, I gotta hit that, again, what you just said, most people don't believe that their gift is valuable. Oh my God, that's, that's probably the biggest message that needs to come out of this episode is that people don't actually attach the value that they deserve to their gift. It's, it's unbelievable. Because when even if it's this one thing, like even if it's, I'm going to use knitting as an example. Because it's like people have come up with all these different hobbies during COVID. Right, so so let's say this, this 60 year old woman who is a bang and crochet artist and can do the world's best booties, and little baby sweaters and everything. And she's just been doing it since forever. And this young mother who's 34, and has been trying to get pregnant for 10 years. And it's been her dream to knit something for her own baby. And she's never been able to do it. She doesn't know how. And this woman who's just like diddling around with like knitting needles, and she's been doing that for decades, doesn't think it's special, because all of her friends can knit. This woman comes to offer her like, I will give you $1,000 if you can teach me how to crochet in six weeks before this baby is born. So I can knit my baby booties and a sweater. I will, of course people are doing that people are doing that all over the world right now paying people 1000 2000 $3,000 to learn how to crochet or knit in about six to eight weeks, it's happening all over the place for a past time that used to be so normal, it was taught in school. And I think that just people if you if they have a value, if they have a skill set, I think that they need to   14:02 do the research on what people are actually paying for it. And then double it and start there. So when you say how do you know how do you know what your value is? Or what your what your gift is? Like what your skill set really is. The first place I like to go is the compliments you get from people What do people say you're good at? Like what do people thank you for? What do people always say? What are people referring your name out for in and that can be in, you know, in your personal life too. That doesn't have to be in business but like anything, so if they're complimenting you on something that you do well, it's probably something you enjoy, you know, it's it's not like oh my gosh, she's really good at balancing the books at the end of the year. She doesn't cuz she has to she doesn't love it. But like what do people say all year long that you're good at is an organization like oh, my gosh, she this woman is so good at organizing. It's like she can always find a way to clean things up for me or to like manage my stuff or to fix my kids schedule during you know, quarantine when it's been a mess. Or you know, what is the organization   15:00 Woman is the best like interior design or this man is the best if troubleshooting pieces that you have around the house and being able to fix them up in this way, there's so many different things that people do on the regular that they get credit for that they're like, Oh, yeah, that's just something I do, though. No, that's something you need to get paid for, if you're willing. So what you're saying is, I can actually get paid for being sarcastic. People compliment my sarcasm all the time.   15:27 So there's an avenue I need to go.   15:32 You can do and you could do a core point using sarcasm to leverage yourself in business, for using sarcasm to build relationships, in your business in your personal life in like mergers and acquisitions. There are negotiation strategies being taught through sarcasm right now in the world. Yes, that's, that's actually my first language. English is my second language. Sarcasm, number one, truly. And   15:59 so from a tool standpoint, or from a, I know, a method standpoint, where do you see things so you you bring these people in you, you show them? You know, here is what you're good at? Here's what you're passionate about? Here's the value you can add to other human beings? And what are the what are the biggest challenges you're seeing on people? When they do find this? How do they have they monetize it? How do they? How do they turn their gift and their passion into a into a business? Yes, good question. Perfect question. Because that's what matters in the end. So when you when you when you find your thing, and you're like, Oh my gosh, that's it. That is it. I love that I could really make money doing that. Yes. Okay. So once you get on board with the Yes, I can, then it's a matter of, Okay, well, where were you when you started doing this? Where were you? Where did you start? Okay, and where did you finish your finish there? Okay, what were the steps in between that took you from I'm just starting out to Hey, I'm really good at this. This is amazing. Because there's always a pattern, there's always steps. There's always like evidence or breadcrumbs, a trail that you leave behind that can show other people how to get there, too. And it's just a matter of actually taking a moment. And sometimes it's like taking a couple hours and falling back into your memory bank and saying, Where did I? Where did I start? Okay, then what did I do? Okay, I did that for a while, maybe that took me this long. And then what happened? What was the outcome after that, then I learned this, okay, then I took that, and I applied it to this, and just stack those steps to get to the end result. And that is your signature offer framework. That is what you can deliver to other people package that up. And when I say package that up, I mean, define those steps. And then within the steps, there should be, you know, instructions on how to get to the next step. Right. So that's just packaging your signature program, so that you can show other people how to get to where you went. And, and this can be done. Another thing, Shawn, is that people often say that, like they, they they even stop mentally, they block themselves by saying, I couldn't I couldn't actually do that, though, because I'm not a professional or I couldn't do that. Because like, I don't have a website, or I can't do that, because I don't have any acronyms at the end of my name. like nobody cares about your acronyms. You know how many people have asked me about my degree? since I graduated? None? Yep. Nobody asked me. They asked me Oh, how do you like work at Disney World? Oh, you got to you got to congressional nominations for the Naval Academy. Oh, you've lived in Canada, all you, they don't care about my degree, nobody cares. They, like I'm showing up for the job. They assume I have the degree that's it's like next day, so. And when you're online, nobody cares about any of that. They're like, prove it to me, prove it to me, by way of showing me online, that you can help me prove it to me by by giving me trainings for free to let me know that I can trust you prove it. So you don't have to show them a degree because it's garbage. And I mean, like people who have a license for their degree, that's different lawyers, doctors that that's different. But I really, I really want a surgeon to have a degree when they're working on me. But um, but I would rather have the surgeon that mentored with someone for 10 years over the degree.   19:02 The degree is, I don't know, I better have the experience. That's true.   19:08 That's true. I want I want an army surgeon who's been in triage locations all over the world first. You're right. So, but if they like, you know, if you show up and you serve people online with that thing, you know, you show them that you can get them from point A to point whatever, you only have to be one step ahead of them. That's it. That's it. And then they're there. People are often hanging on to this idea that they have to be the expert. There's no the expert in anything. I don't care how high up you go. Because somebody is coming right underneath to take that spot all the time. It's always shifting all the time. There's nobody that's the best ever. So let's get over it. And let's just say can you help them two steps behind you or one step behind you? Yeah, there are millions of people that could apply to so if you if you can just outline the framework of your signature offer by indicating which steps it takes to get there for that.   20:01 And then marketing that I can help you get from here to here, here are the steps it takes. That's all it is. Here's what it looks like for me. Now, here are the things that I struggled with. And here's how it's going now that I don't struggle anymore, here's the compelling future that I have. But here's how bad it sucked before I got here. If that sounds like, Whoa, come along. So it's just a matter of like marketing it that way, packaging up marketing that way. Because if you're clear on what you can do for people, and you let them know that, if you're clear, then they're clear, then they can decide for themselves. Yeah, that is something I want, I want that transformation to this person has a step by step outline for me, like, I can just go to them to help me get there perfect. So it's, it's just a matter of that. And then it's a matter of, you know, something, you talk about value, right? Like people don't don't necessarily value themselves, right. I tend to jump people up very quickly in their service pricing, however, I believe in being aligned with the offer that you have, because if you're not, at first, you won't sell it, you won't sell it right. It'll be weird, it'll come off creepy, it'll be like, do they not believe in it or what's going on, it's usually the money. So it's usually don't believe they should ask for this month, because much because they feel bad because they've done it for free in the past. Okay, so we need to also get over that. Now. You're certainly now you're serving people at a high level online, and you need to get paid for it. So once they can do that, it's like, Alright, if you can't energetically or emotionally or spiritually get behind, you know, a four figure number for a program, that's it's good that you've been doing that you take people through on 16 weeks or whatever, especially if it's a live training, that's worth that's worth more, if you can't really get behind it, there's nothing wrong with offering a lower a lower price. But you have to let them know, this is the only time we're going to do that. The only reason I have is a 1499 program, the only time I'm ever going to do this is now it is 397 This will be the last bunch. But in exchange for that extreme discount, I am going to require testimonials, possibly testimonial so that you can build that authority and that credibility and that social proof. And then what's beautiful about this is that then you do get paid, you get paid the money. And that proves to you that you can do it. And then you do the work. And you're like, oh, we're not we're not doing this for 397. Again, oh no, this is worth more, you find out it's hard, right? It's a little hard. Even if you love it, you gotta you gotta help people. So that I feel like that process, everybody kind of goes through that they create the structure, they start talking about it, they start helping people with it, they come up with a price, a lower price that they feel a little better about a little bit more aligned with at first and then they're like, Oh, no, and then they like triple, or quadruple and they're like, okay, I feel good about this for now. And then you get better. And as you get better, and the demand gets higher, you can increase it as you go. But that's that's where people need to start. Yeah. And I think you at that exact point when they sell their first stuff is lower than what they want. But I think right then is where I see the biggest mindset change. And people, once they once you, I mean success builds upon success. And once they get that first batch out of the way, the first money coming in, when they first sell it, that's when I see the biggest change in people's mindset of what they're capable of, and what they can do. And you'd mentioned something, I think it was probably one of my biggest setbacks is when I first started, you know, years ago, I thought I had to have all the technology in place. I thought I had to have the whole program done. I thought I had to. And that's not how people do it. I mean, you look at some of the great people, and they're literally building programs on the fly, based on the needs of the people. And you know, if you try building an entire, you know, 10 week program, and you haven't tested it, and you haven't developed it with people, I've done that, it I've gone through the biggest   23:48 I, you if you build it, they will come. No they won't.   23:53 You've got got a whip   23:57 I've tried, doesn't work that way. But I did   24:03 work. If you waste a ton of time doing it that way. And you think you know, as good as you are as good as anyone is you think you know, and you have no idea. You always assume people are further along with you. They're not right, you got to back you got to back it up. And you also have to fill all these holes. Think about so I'm with you like I I believe in. I believe in live training. The first batch I don't believe in course creation above other things. But there is a place for course creation for sure. But I believe in the live interaction. There's so much more value there. It's better for everybody. You're in the moment they have the your clients have the ability to do q&a with you. It's just better. And then what's beautiful about that is that you know shine like you extract, you extract what they need in that moment and say, say you did a six week course like a live training course and they showed up every Monday for two hours for six weeks. And that first week you gave them this stuff that you had for the first week.   25:00 And then at the end of the program at the end of that two hours, we're like, Hey, guys, how did you do? How did you like, what did you not? Are we clear on this? And then you're thinking, Okay, I'm ready for week two, and then they answer you, and you're like, Oh, you guys are not ready for week two, I'm gonna have to come up with something else. But because you're the expert, you know what we'll need based on their reaction? And then you just shift and adjust for that. But you would otherwise you would have wasted how many hours? How many hours creating this course that you can't even use after week two? Yeah. And what do you what do you think about me? Even for me, sometimes the biggest thing about going live is the fear people have.   25:37 People would rather die than go live. I mean, it's like, that is the biggest fear people have. And it's like, man, how do we get over that? Because, as you said, you can build stuff and build stuff, and no one's gonna, unless you have that energy from the I'm the same way. I love doing live because, to me, it forces me to think more into what the people need, you see them, you're getting feedback. And it's almost like a mastermind, you you can't think about that without those people, those people for me, the it drives better, better content and drives better ideas and drives better things. But that point of going live, hitting that live button or doing things with with people, it scares the crap out. Even people who were doing it live in the past, in person, you get in front of a camera and people change. They do I think, what are some of them? Yeah, what are some things that you do with your clients that help them with the you know, to me, it's all fear. It's all bullshit. And it's all in your head, but it's there. Okay, so I, I was there to, like, you know, I'm a, I'm a trained keynote speaker, I can get on stages and do this, I can get on virtual stages and do this. But that was not always the case. And I didn't even get on social media until 2019. So, um, I went when somebody and it wasn't until somebody said to me, um, you need to be going live like you're not translating any of your personality or any of your help online. And I'm like, Yeah, I hate social media. So I'm not doing it. And I you know, this this though, to me, all it was is a bunch of like, comparison Bs, like, just just brag fast. I just, I hated the idea of this toxic online space. I hated it. So I I just, I just blackballed it. And then somebody challenged me to say, okay, you do one live, and you help people in the way that I know you do in your clinic and in real life and in with your clients and everything. You go live and do it online. If you don't help anybody, and nobody wants to hear it. I'll never ask you to do it again. But if you do you do another one. And I was like, Oh, you're on. You're on. I'm about to, like, break friends. And this is gonna be so I went live. And before I did, I had so I have anxiety and panic disorder. Anyway, so I was I when I say that I was shaking, like I had cold sweats. And I was shaking. And I was like, doing deep breathing exercises. Because I was being I was being like, there she was in the corner, I was being forced. So I had to press the button. I went live, I go back and go back and look at that live. And I'm like, oh, gosh, you were so nervous. Why? Why reason nervous. And I blocked a bunch of people on my live like, you can block people on your friends list from seeing that live, which was felt safer. I'm like, Okay, I'll just keep those sarcastic people out of the way. Sean's not watching so well.   28:30 But I just didn't want any like, I didn't want it feel any jokes or anything else. Because like, everybody knew I don't go online. So all of a sudden, Sandra's gonna show up online? Who does she think she is a hypocrite? You betcha. So after that, I got such good feedback from people. And I was like, I have to help them. No, I have to like not because somebody said, but because these people are hurting. And they were so grateful. Now I have to. And so for me, when I teach other people how to how to get over the fear of going online, you often have to challenge them to do it in a way that's meaningful for them. Like, here's the outcome if you if you do this challenge. And when I do that, there's ways to do this, where like, you're looking at the camera. And on the other side of the camera, for me, is my dream client, my ideal client that I know that I can help and maybe it's a best friend of mine that's been sitting on my couch in tears before because she can't figure out how to get to the next step. And I'm saying, You are so good at this, it's on the other side, you have to do this. Here's why. Here's what this looks like. If you could just get over the fear part. Just block that for a second. Here's what's available for you all of this. And so when you look through the lens and know that there's a breathing heartbeat soul on the other end of that lens, that it's not this big, like chasm of judging people, it's a soul that needs your help on the other end of that camera lens. Does that change your mind? Does that make you feel differently? Because I'm I can tell you now as fearful as I was for so long and sometimes still am when I go up to speak and I don't know if you ever get that too, but like I still get nervous before. Right? And, and so if there was I've decided that if there was an audience   30:00 5000 people, and they were all like making fun of me rolling their eyes on their cell phones ignoring me. But there was one person in the back of the room in tears, because they were so grateful for what I was saying, I would keep going, despite anybody else in their opinion of me, because that person is in pain. That's, I think that's how most humans are built. So if you can, if you can just imagine that there's somebody that needs your help on the other end of that, like you've established that you're good at something, you know that your thing has value, you're going to price for it, now you're going to talk about it, talk about it, because somebody needs your help, not because you're worried, like, don't worry about the friends and family that might be like, Oh, he's going online. Now. That's interesting. How about block then if you don't like it? How about hide their hide their eyes from your life? Or how about ignore the fact that they're judging you at all? Because they might be cheering you on quietly? And the other thing is, if they're not? are they paying your bills? Do they help you financially? Do they have a say in what you do with your life, like all of these things, and you know, to shine like all of these things are limiting beliefs that keep you from greatness. And I feel like, if we could all have a snapshot view of what our life could look like, if we were to say no to all those fears all along the years, if we would have said no to all those things, what would we have right now? I feel like we would all be heartbroken if we could do that. So if we can now say, all right, COVID is forcing us to pivot things or pressure, like things or pressure us all around me, I want to I want to do something with this. But I don't know how can you just decide that fear doesn't get to say anything this time? And just try it and see, because the the worst thing that will happen is that you'll learn something great out of it. And most probably you'll do well, most probably Yeah. And I think especially with you know, with what's going on, we can't meet in person like we had in the past.   31:48 I mean, this is and this is great. And when we see each other on here, we're you know, we're communicating online, it's still not the same from a personal standpoint, but it's better than than not, it's better than to me just posting stuff, it's like, you're still we still have a connection, I'm still looking looking at you in your eyes, we're still having a connection, we're still doing that. And it's to me that video is so, so important. And it's where we accept, but it's where we're going, we have to, we have to be able to do that, in order to be successful. I think in any business that's online, now you have to be able to have, because without that live, without that interaction, you're not going to build the connections. And to me, that's what it is. It's it's not making a sale, it's not selling someone it is absolutely making a connection with someone. And you can't do it without. Without video, you really can't. I mean, not in the same way, you're right.   32:42 Not in the same way at all. And there are two things, two beautiful things that have happened out of COVID. For this reason, first of all, people are disconnected from brands, from big brand names from big box retailers from global brands, they're disconnected. Nobody has a relationship with Coca Cola, you might have nostalgia with Coca Cola and emotions tied to the brand, but you don't have a relationship with them, because they're not a person. But they you can have relationships with individuals who are serving you, and spending their time and their heart and their energy and their bandwidth, trying to help you you have a relationship with those people. And you do that by way of video connecting with them to like because you need you need the proof that they're like living, breathing moving, right, right. Anybody could cat fish with online, you need proof that this person is a person. And so the second thing, so that's one beautiful thing is that the individual brands like the self branded, like the US, the me's, the people out here that are doing their thing online. People build relationships with us, and they trust us and they love us, and we love them back and trust them back. And this is how we do business because it's not transaction, its relationship, right. And then the second thing that's beautiful is that now no one has an excuse to not get online. The physicians that I used to work with my clientele my patient basis, you know, 66 years older, they'll never get online there. Oh, these guys are younger, they don't have time to get online. They don't check emails anymore. Not anymore. Now the entire globe is forced to create zoom meetings interact online. This is it's it's a force feed and telemedicine has come I don't know, like five years in the last three months. It's amazing now, and everybody sat on their hands because they didn't feel like it because they got other things to do. And now that we're all being forced, everybody knows how to do business with you. There's no excuse anymore, and people are comfortable with it today.   34:30 It's almost like we got fired from our job of normal living we got fired from our normal way of doing things and now this is we're forced to do this this is you know, sink or swim you're gonna do it or you're or you're not. And so one of the things so you are doing your generation impact stuff, which is to me that that is such a great name for for what you're doing. What What is generation impact. What What are you guys doing over there? First of all, thank you we ruminated over that name for a long time because because of our intentions for people   35:00 generational impact was born out of the idea that we, we, me and my partners, Shane Thrall and David Walden, we decided that, you know, the people that we're meeting in the online space, like you said, didn't believe in themselves enough, they didn't realize where their value was lying. They didn't understand that they they're like walking treasures to the world. And we're saying, if you could tap into that, and give it to other people, do you understand what kind of impact you can make? So we're saying this whole generation of people that is willing to step out and say, like, what's my gift, how helped me serve, you can make the biggest impact, you have no idea, generationally making impact on other people's generations, depending on what you do wealth. generational wealth is available, like health, like relationships, it's all available to people. And we're saying, alright, as generation impact, what can we do to be the first domino that knocks down all these other dominoes that makes the impact across the world. And so what we do is we have to, we have basically two legs of the company where the one we are teaching, we have an academy that teaches entrepreneurs online, how to grow and scale their business, how to be efficient, how to how to create those sales, how to market themselves properly, how to build a team, how to deploy this brand for themselves. And then secondarily, we have a consulting side, where we consult with corporations, and we build training materials for them workshop trainings, we help their their team learn new mechanisms for sales and marketing online in this space, and shifting and growing and, you know, basically all the strategy that you need as you change in a company, and companies are kind of notorious for doing things an old way, until something is pretty painful, and they're forced to shift. Well, if we can help them avoid that pain and grow bigger without as much cost, then we're going to do that, too. So, so we're basically helping b2c and b2b at the same time in different ways. Right. And I, you know, I think that is so important that you have these, you have these tools, in the end companies like yours available, because you can truly compress with with what you do, you can help someone compress something that might take them a few years to learn and develop in a extremely short amount of time. And, and I think one of the one of the best things that I'm seeing out of out of COVID is, you know, the people that you're helping, you're helping them generate their their passion, their love into businesses, I have been out in it, absolutely fascinated with some of the great imagination, and the great things that people are starting to produce, and put out there to the world. I think that is one of the greatest things that has happened with with COVID is people are now seeing that and I'm starting to see these companies or these people develop their their companies and some of the stuff is just amazing of what they're doing the ideas that they're coming up with. It's it's absolutely amazing to to watch these people finally, open up and develop what they were, what to me what they were really meant to do. What the the I don't know that the they're so industrious, like humans are. So they surprised me every day. And every time I see not only the names they've been really giving me life this year. But but the but the inventions and the ideas and the and the way that people are willing to say, let's see, let me let me try. Let me shift it and try it this way. And you're going yeah, like you can do it. I feel like I'm just on the other side of the screen, like cheering people on all the time. Because every new idea, and there's so many when we're forced to figure stuff out and get creative. It's amazing what we can come up with. But like you said, I feel like like we birthed a new way of life in this COVID like time and the time of COVID. And it's almost like those, like those cartoon reels where you see all the men in suits and hats, and what they're walking in black and white, and they're all like, you know, a mob of men just walking to work with briefcases. And then there's somebody over here in color, like bouncing around doing things differently. I feel like that's where we're going now, where this was the way that of the of the past. And this is the way now it's more fun. It's more free, there's more opportunity, because people are willing to see things a little differently. Yeah, and with what's available now with the technology that's available, and where people's mindsets are, anybody can be a company, anybody can be an author, anybody can be a speaker, anybody, you you have everything you need to be as big as anybody else. There's nothing now there is nothing holding people back you have the same assets available to you as a entrepreneur as a solopreneur then big companies had in the past you can now that that's the biggest thing is from literally from your phone, you can create content you can create you can create amazing things but just the simplest stuff that you have now and it's all available to everybody if they know if they have the mindset so you know that's where you come in as you help them with the mindset that they can do it and here's how you do it. But no longer is to me no longer as technology or no longer as all these big, you know brick and mortar assets that people had. That's not a that's not a   40:00 They stop or anymore that the absolutely no stop or anybody upgrade anything. And that's the biggest thing I see is anybody can create anything that they want now. It's amazing. Isn't it like that? That sounds like if you said that in the 80s, you'd be like, okay, big finger settle down. Yeah. But now it's like there's nothing more true. I mean, you don't need a website, you don't need a website to get started. You don't need it. You don't even need that. So you don't even have to pay to host what you have. You have free access to any social platform online. And if you market yourself that way, with your cell phone, sure you have to pay for internet and like a cell phone bill. But that is it. That's it. So the opportunities really are available to everybody, kids, teenagers, young teenagers, kids younger than that are making money online right now doing whatever they're good at. It's unbelievable. It's It's wild. It's like the new Gold Rush. It is Oh, absolutely.   40:54 Yeah. And and people are, you know, they're creating this, this sense of freedom for them. Like there's nothing better. There's nothing but there are some things but there's nothing better for me, when I'm when an entrepreneur finally gets to the point where they're like, Okay, fine. No, no, no, you're right, I'm gonna get out of my head. I'm just gonna do the things. We do those things and launch myself. I'm gonna put myself out there. And I'm like, Yes, yes, let's do it. And then they get paid, and say they have like a 5000, or a 10,000, or like, a 27,000 launch. Or, or they have that that conversation with a new client, and they sign a $45,000 contract like this. And I'm going, how did that change your life? Talk to me about the things you can do. Now, talk to me about how you can grow your business. Now talk to me about how now you have a team. Now you have more time because your team is doing some of the work. And now you can actually I don't know, take your first vacation ever with your children in 10 years. What does that like? Like? Those kind of wins are exponential, because I know they're helping their clients. Let's talk about that. Like, how did your life change? It's an It's amazing. They're saying, with my camera phone, and my computer, that's all it took? Yeah. Love belief in yourself, too. That's awesome. Yeah. And it's funny, it's when it's a bad moment. And I'm sure you see this a lot. It's that that moment you actually see it in their eyes, you actually see it in their stature. When that light goes off. You can you can physically see that light going off in their in their head and like, wow, yeah, this is this is it? We can do this? Yeah, that to me, that's the funnest thing. Yeah. And so you But see, you've done that your entire seat. And that's the thing you want to be one of your gifts is yes, you care about your you know, all your clients, you care, you care that they are successful, you care that they get what they want. But you've done that your entire career. So you even when you were doing your real estate stuff, you were that's part of your DNA, that's part of who you are of helping people and you and everything you do you actually, you know, I see that in you on all this. I've seen you on stage. I've seen you, you know, on doing your stuff. And that always comes out that you absolutely care about the outcome of the person. And that it did does it absolutely shows if I could I don't process data that passed. Again, I'm going back to you are so good and so fast to what you do. It's like I can't process it that fast. It's so much so much great data. I'm like, bouncing around in my head. So let me ask you this on a percentage, if we had a percentage a 50%? Or could you strike me out with a softball still?   43:31 Yeah. How was that?   43:34 You didn't have to think about that. And then you say you're from Canada?   43:39 Oh, go ahead. Yes.   43:42 I was gonna say because two things. Um, because muscle memory is a little ridiculous. When you play a sport for so long. It's not hard to pick it back up pretty quickly. But also because most people can't hit a hit and underhand fast pitch, especially men who are used to playing baseball, and they're looking for the overhand release. So that's usually even even my baseball player buddies like D one, like I would pitch to them, we'd mess around and I pitch to him. And it wasn't that hard to strike them out. There D one baseball players like but would piss him off.   44:13 I better pass them off to I bet it would piss them off. Oh, yeah.   44:18 And then also, ya   44:22 know, so being from Canada. Do you know what a Looney tune is?   44:27 Of course, see now, transactional currency, but no one actually use it. So we went to me and my wife, we went up to I think Quebec City a couple years ago. And I convinced her to always talk like she was gonna pay and loonies and toonies. People there thought she was a nut. But I convinced her that she had to call them loonies and toonies.   44:48 She's never lived that down. And   44:51 but finally someone said, Hey,   44:54 what are you type? We don't call them loonies and toonies. We're just in the background.   45:00 You're you went to Quebec City? Yes. And that they're very French. So they're not going to call them that probably great. And so anywhere else in the southern part of Canada, if you say alluded to, and for listeners that don't know, I'm sure some people are googling it like what is that? But, but a loony is just $1 coin and today is a $2 point. And so, um, Canadians don't use pennies anymore. They're no longer part of the circulation. So everything rounds up to an even number. But, or like a five or zero but, but if you go if you you're safe shot if you go and you bring your wife to Southern Ontario, and you said Looney intuitive they'd be like, Yeah, no, I got it. But um, it came back city, like Montreal, like all the chemical I will um, they'll prefer it if you speak French period. Yes, carry it. And I don't do it well, so they don't like it   45:52 at all, but it was a man. We loved it up there. It was absolutely. Absolutely beautiful.   45:57 Isn't it? Yes. It was cold. There was brand new years. So we went New Year's Eve, we did some big rave, outdoor rave. New Year's Eve. It was wild. But yeah, it was it was cold. I'm from Texas. Yeah, well, I'm from Colorado, but oh, I've acclimated to Texas, and it's damn cold.   46:21 It's your blood wasn't ready. was not ready at all. But I've had an absolute fantastic, fantastic time. Thank you for coming on the podcast. And everybody go to you know, we're gonna put the you know, those listening, go to the show notes because we're gonna have all the ways that you can contact xandra and also going to generation impact group Comm. I'm telling you, this is the way this is the way the future and everybody, here's the thing. I think every household in the next year or two is going to have a business. Every household is going to have a side gig side business from doing what they love to some being forced, like you, you know, they're they've lost their jobs, they've lost their way of income, some just because they have the desire to do it, but everybody is going to every household is going to have a side business. And I just love the stuff that you guys do. So thanks so much for being on being on the podcast and adding so much value.

Do this if you want to grow your fitness business. Want help growing your fitness business? I'm here for you get on my schedule visit https://www.fitprobusiness.com/audit and schedule your FREE fitness business audit. "The only way to win at content marketing is for the reader to say; This was written specifically for me." Jaime Turner "Content builds relationships, relationships are built on trust. Trust drives revenue." How to easily produce valuable content that gets your target market to take action: 1. What- What does your target market want to achieve? 2. Why- Why do they want to achieve it? 3. Why now- Why is it important to achieve this goal now? 4 Call to Action - What is the clear action you want them to take. You can do this, I believe in you! Get on my calendar and lets create a clear roadmap for you to follow to help grow your fitness business visit https://www.fitprobusiness.com/audit

Rosie and Dr MaryAnne get passionate about living their lives, instead of simply surviving, during this second lockdown and throughout the whole new life with COVID. What? What's that? Yep. It's like we're living our lives as if there is no COVID.

You put yourself in a box? I wish it was that simpleBut in reality, you can’t be defined. It’s definitely one of my obsessions to uncover the truest version of myself and just be EXACTLY that. You hear people say ‘be yourself’ but what is that? What does that mean? And it’s really funny that someone actually has to TELL you to be yourself. WHAT? What is actually holding you back?Okay, I know we want to be accepted and liked. And fit in. but perhaps, the people who are most magnetic are the ones that have the courage to be disliked. Now you may ask, why do you even have this fear? It doesn’t make sense. Truth be told, I don’t know why what our heart wants comes with obstacles. I’m not sure why we have to exert so much power to be who we truly are.If you ask someone they’ll tell you that they know themselves but they might actually be pretty blinded by the society or their culture. Or their surroundings. But back to the question, who are you vs. who you think you are? If everything in the world is a made up concept then you’re actually pretty blank without any labels. No nationality, no race, nothing. You are not your job, you are not any of your relations. Well if you’re spiritual, you can say you just are. The personality is also very complex, you might see a stranger/friend and think that they’re one dimensional. But actually we’re all pretty multifaceted. For example, I really do go to bed every night at the same time. Wake up early. No addictions other than chocolate and coffee. But I listen to really ghetto music. Why is that? I have no idea. I just like it. My style also changes. And that’s why I avoid labeling myself as best as I can. I always try to listen to my heart lol this sounds so cheesy but I feel like I’ve been doing great so farThe first thing I want to emphasize is stop having concepts and ideas about yourself. Yo, I don’t know if this is too out there but when you wipe the slate clean. You’ll see what truly makes you happy. You can then really question yourself, and I promise maybe you might not have any answers right away but you’ll have some paths open up. You find what you look for. The second thing is to stop being scared of sharing your opinion on things. Okay don’t be mean but have an authentic opinion on things. Don’t just agree with people or things. You have your internal compass listen to it. Follow it. I think it’ll guide you with what you want to do. I think everyday you have a chance to come closer to yourself. EVERYONE that you look up to is unapologetically themselves. But how did they get there?So the third thing is to stop your judgement for others and yourself. Because that’s basically your ego getting in the way and as long as your ego plays a big part. You’re looking for admiration, approval or positive feedback. You’re not being you!And last thing, is to definitely NOT be scared of judgement. Do what feels true to you in the moment. What’s true to you might change as you grow and evolve. But do and say what you feel like. The more you break through these barriers, the more you’ll be able to become immune to it. There are a lot of things that people told you that are good and bad but don’t limit yourself. You decide what’s good and bad for you. This is only the surface to be honest, will def do more episodes on this. Hope you enjoyed it. If you’re listening on castbox, do like it or wherever so I know if you liked it. You can also reach out to me on instagram @nabeelah.munshi

EXPLICIT CONTENT WARNING HAT TRICK of podcasts, another episode of Pixels and Pin--- wait. What? What's that? The lawyers are on the phone? In this episode of Super Pixels Weekly, William and Donavin talk about the rebranding of the podcast, small tidbits of gaming news (let's be honest, this week was pretty dry), and games we're playing! SQUADRONS BREAKS PCs CONFIRMED?!?!?! We also cover Donavin's audition tape of "Naked and Afraid - Home Edition." All that and more on this week's episode of Super Pixels Weekly! Intro and Outro song: "Play Me Like That Video Game" - Josef Bel HabibRoyalty Free courtesy of Epidemic Sound

Why?: How do you construct a Bible lesson based on The Effective Four? What?: The Effective Four are the four questions you should help your learners answer so that they might gain wisdom rather than mere knowledge from your Bible lesson. The questions are: Why? What? So What? So What Now?. The first question is Why? Why should they want to know the truth you are going to show them from Scripture? The second question is What? What is that truth? The third question is So What? How might the truth be applied to their lives so that they can grow in wisdom? Finally, So What Now? What transformation would they commit to as a result of the lesson? That's the order of the lesson—Why? What? So What? So What Now?. But, the lesson is constructed starting with the What? This is where you will spend most of your time in preparing the lesson. What is the big idea from the passage you are going to teach? Once you understand what the human author, inspired by the divine author, meant to say to the original audience, you can bring the truth to your learners. Then, think through how that truth could be applied to your learners. That's the So What?. The So What Now? is the way in which you will have your learners commit to being transformed. Finally, knowing where you're aiming, develop the Why? that will draw them into the lesson. Raise a tension that needs to be settled or ask a question that needs to answered by the passage you're teaching. So What?: In summary, you prepare the lesson beginning with the What?, but you present the lesson beginning with the Why?. This is the method of constructing a lesson so that you are, as the title of the book says, Bible Teaching for Wisdom. So What Now?: Rather than reading from a lesson prepared by another or presenting a lot of interesting Bible facts, know the truth that leads to wisdom and then teach that truth using The Effective Four.

Welcome to the Thinking Big Podcast. This episode is part 8  of a special 14 day Think and Grow Rich Challenge. Today we are going over the 7th step to success, the step on Decision - The mastery of procrastination.  I recently hosted a live 14 days Think and Grow Rich challenge that benefited Feeding America and I thought it would be great to put the challenge right here on the podcast.  So for 14 days I will be releasing a new podcast and the associated challenge that covers each of the 13 steps of Think and Grow Rich plus a bonus challenge on the introduction. It doesn’t matter if you have ever read the book or not, the challenge is designed for anyone to do. There is a link in the show notes so you can sign up for free and get download all of the challenge worksheets and a PDF copy of the original Think and Grow Rich Today we are thinking big on decisions. The 14-day Think and Grow Rich Challenge. https://www.sean-osborn.com/14daychallenge   Free Audibles book http://bit.ly/thinkingbigaudible   Connect with Sean Osborn at Thinking Big Coaching Website http://www.thinkingbigcoaching.com Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkingbigcoaching/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thinkingbigcoaching/   Until tomorrows challenge, remember to always think big Ratings and reviews directly impact search rankings for the Thinking Big Podcast. So please help and rate and review the podcast.   Podcast Transcription: 0:00 Welcome to the thinking big podcast. Today is Part Eight of a special 14 day thinking Grow Rich challenge. And today, we're going over the seventh step to success, the step on decision, the mastery of procrastination. I recently hosted a live 14 day thinking Grow Rich challenge, and I thought it would be great to put this right here on the podcast for anybody to listen to. So for 14 days, I will be releasing a new podcast, and the associated challenge that comes with each of the 13 steps in thinking Grow Rich, plus a bonus challenge on the introduction. And it does not matter if you've ever read the book or not. This challenge is designed for anybody to do. There are links in the show notes so you can sign up for free. Get the download to the challenge worksheets, even a free PDF copy of the original book thinking grow rich. So today, we are thinking big on decision. 1:26 Hello, and welcome to the chapter on decision. This is the mastery of procrastination. It's the seventh step to success. And we're going to start off again, like always with some great quotes from other great minds that have to do with decision making and the importance of it. Raymond Charles marker success and failure are the result of the use of mind. Every success motivated mind has been a decisive mind. Every failure motivated mind has been an indecisive, indecisive mind. Wallace D. Wattles act now is never anytime but now. And there will never be any other time. But now, Tony Robbins, Don't ever leave the moment without making the decision. JOHN Maxwell, inability to make decisions is one of the principal reasons executives fail deficiency in decision making ranks much higher than the lack of specific knowledge or technical know how, as an indicator of leadership failure. And tonight's challenges on the decision making the seventh step. But before we can make a decision before we can really go in and say this is what I'm going to decide right now, we have to know what we want. And that's why on day one, the statement of desire, we have to get that nailed down, we have to know what's the one thing that we know we want you know, what is that one thing that we want? You know, when I asked people it's funny when I when I'm when I'm in a group of people, or I'm doing a seminar, you know, I ask people, what do you want? Most people hesitate? Or they can't tell me what exactly they want. Now, when I asked them what they don't want, they start spewing out all kinds of things. I don't want to be unhealthy. Or I don't want to you know, work, you know, 80 hours a week, oh, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be broke. I don't want to, but they can't tell me what they do want. And here's a little thing on this subconscious mind, which we'll get to that I think in day 10 I think but your subconscious mind does not know when you say you don't want Are you more or less I want more of this or I want less of this or I do want this or I don't want this, all it knows is this. You know, so when you say I don't want to be broke, your subconscious mind is hearing broke, dude, I'm gonna make you broke. When you know when you tell yourself I don't want to be unhealthy. Your subconscious mind tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, I'm gonna be unhealthy, unhealthy, that's when it gets it doesn't get to I do or more or less. So we have to be specific on that. And one of my mentors, Parma, Walmart. Now he says, if you are struggling in any area of your life, it's because you are not making a decision that you need to make. So if you're struggling in health, if you're struggling in your finances, or you're struggling in your career, it's because you are not making a decision that you need to make and that you probably know you need to make. 4:37 And a common reason for failing to become successful to become wealthy is the inability to make and stick with a decision. When you do make that decision. You have to stick to the decision. And if you look at a farmer, let's say you're you're you're a farmer, and one day you plant corn and you wake up the next Morning and you look out on your field, it's all bast, and you don't see any corn. And you say, damn, you know what I'm gonna plant soybeans. So you go dig all the corn up and you plant soybeans, and then you wake up the next day and look out there, and there's no soybeans. So you dig that up and you plant something else. things take time, when you make a decision, you have to stick to that decision. It takes time to develop, it takes time for that seed to mature, it takes time for that seed to incubate, and to grow. And people who can't reach decisions promptly and stick with them will fail to achieve if you don't stick to your stick to your decisions. You won't achieve it. You know, they they people who do that lack the desire of their own, and are thus they're easily influenced by the opinions of others, allowing others to do the thinking for them. And there is a great quote from Bernard, George Bernard Shaw on this. It's 2% of people think 3% of people think they think, and 95% of people would rather die than think, oh, oh, that's true. Oh, that is so true. We have minds of our own, which we must use to make decisions if you want to succeed. decisive people are undeterred by others criticisms, your How many times have you heard criticisms, and you just kind of bow down and, and people who are very decisive, are undeterred by that. What they want to do is what they're going to do, that's all there is to it, regardless of what someone else thinks, when you know, your definiteness of purpose, you know, your decision is sound, you know, you're not going to be deterred by other people, indecisive people, on the other hand, take others negative opinions to heart, and sometimes develop even inferior complexes as a result of that, you know, how many times have you told people, friends, families, whatever your ideas, and, and they started talking negative, now, you can't do that? How you gonna do that? Right? You know, so for most of us, what we do is when we do make decisions, up until now, hopefully this will help grow is we make decisions as backwards, we really do. We have been developed as a, as a society as a culture to really make decisions asked backwards, we think a decision is at the end of the line. So when we, when we have an idea, read the making the decision, what we'll do is what we'll say, Oh, that's a great idea. But I don't know the people that I need to know. So when I know the people, then I will go, and I'll make that decision, or I don't have the time, I don't have the money. When I have the money, I will make the decision, and I will go do that. Here's the thing, you're never going to know the people, you're never going to have the time you're never going to have the money, you first make the decision. See, we always have the decision decision on the back end. That's the decision goes on the front end, you make the decision, then you find the people, then you find the money, then you find the how you do that. Procrastination is the opposite of decisiveness, and is probably one of the most common obstacles that you must overcome. There's a great quote from Wayne Gretzky skate to the puck. So when you make a decision, 8:28 don't make a decision based on where you are now. Don't make a decision based on your current where you currently think you are. Make a decision based on where you're going to be in three years. decision based on when you're gonna be in five years, skate to the puck, shoot the puck out there and then skate to that make your decision based on that not your current realization of where you are. And here's the thing we talked about this a little bit ago. Don't tell anybody about your ideas. I'm telling you don't tell anybody, anybody about your ideas, except your mastermind group. And your supporters, the ones that are encouraging you do not tell family do not tell friends do not tell. And here's the thing The first time I read Think and Grow Rich, and it's it actually says in there. I thought it was because I didn't want anybody to steal my ideas. Don't tell anybody, because someone might just steal my idea. Well, let's push it. The reason we don't tell anybody is because that negative thoughts that we're going to get back and here's the thing, our family and friends, they absolutely love us. But they have their own bs thrown belief system. They don't want to see us get hurt. You know, they don't want us to be in pain. So they give us their Bs, saying, Oh, are you sure you want to do that? I don't know if you want to do that. Friends and relatives, while not meaning to be bad will handicap us with their opinions and their ridicule, which is meant sometimes meant to be humorous. We all have family and friends like that. So do not add it. One of the quotes in the book is, tell the world what you're going to do. But first, show it. Don't tell people to show people what you're going to do. So people who have failed to accumulate success have if you've failed to get where you want, without exception, have the habit of reaching decisions, if at all, very slowly, and up changing these decisions quickly and often. So that's really what today's challenge is about. Okay, so if you pull out your worksheet for today, today's challenge, you know, if you are, I'm gonna go through this, I'm gonna go through this worksheet with you download. If you're listening to anything else, download the worksheet, it's there for you. But page one, if you are struggling with any area of life, it's because you are not making the decision that you need to successful people, people reach decisions, quickly unsuccessful people do the opposite. So I want you to answer a few questions here. answer the following questions, I make decisions quickly, true or false. I would rather make my own decisions than rely on the opinions and advice of others. I rarely influenced by pinions of others, I have never lost out an opportunity because I failed to make a decision. True or false. I am slow to reverse any decisions that I make. So I want you to go and really think about those questions. The more truth obviously, the closer you are to having great decision making page to the challenge. What is an important decision that you are not making right now, I want you to sit down even in a dark room, meditate, whatever it takes, but sit down and get in a quiet spot and think think hard. What is an important decision that you are not making right now. It'll come to you, I promise you, it will come to you. If there's an error again, if you're struggling, just sit back. Ask ask what you know, what decision Am I not making and see what answers come back? Number two is why is it so difficult? What is preventing you from making that decision? What What is it that's holding you Why are you not making that decision? what's holding you back? And three? What specifically do you need to finalize your decision that more information of some kind, more resources? What concrete steps will you take together what you need? Now keep back now it goes on to keep your own cancel don't counsel don't tell other people reach your own decisions and follow them. So that is today chat is today's challenges. Let's get clear on what we want and make the decision once and for all draw the line in the damn sand. Make the decision until tomorrow. Tomorrow's is on the subconscious mind, which is probably one of my favorite chapters. Absolutely love the mind and the subconscious mind. So until tomorrow, I will talk to you later.

Fuzzy logic is an approach to computing based on "degrees of truth" rather than the usual "true or false" (1 or 0) Boolean logic on which the modern computer is based.  It is a form of many-valued logic in which the truth values of variables may be any real number between 0 and 1 both inclusive.   Govind's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gov218/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/govindmohan218/?originalSubdomain=ca   Deep's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/neuronsrcool/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Deepneuron LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deepprasad/   Pouya's Social: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pouyalj/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pouyalj LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pouyalajevardi/   Episode Transcript:----more----   SUMMARY KEYWORDS reality, true, logic, people, thinking, idea, language, point, universe, objective reality, humans, thought, fuzzy, experiment, paradox, nature, question, probability, false, thoughts SPEAKERS Pouya LJ, Govind, Deep   Pouya LJ  00:16 Hey guys, how's it going?   Govind  00:19 Nice, amazing. Toronto. Good weather.   00:23 Yeah, no, it's surprisingly hot. Yeah.   Pouya LJ  00:29 So it's been a while, since we talked. Let's see each of you. What's up with you. Let's start with you guff?   Govind  00:39 Well, for those that don't know, I have a startup called Virtual systems that focuses on network security using information theory, principles, and networking, to have a flat internet that's not built on data centers where data privacy can be controlled by the user, as opposed to any corporate corporation that is controlling your data, which is the case these days. So that's a little bit of my background. I like a lot of things like mathematics, philosophy, computer science, and software development.   Pouya LJ  01:11 Well, that's for philosophy. All right, I bet you the What's up? What's up with you?   Deep  01:18 Um, yes. First of all, I just want to say that just sounds like the life of a polymath, so I can really appreciate that right on COVID. Yeah, so I similar to COVID. I also run my own startup, we do quantum computing. Instead, we are looking to use quantum computers to accelerate the materials discovery timeline. Right. So right now we do a lot of things that are mostly trial and error based plus some compute, for doing materials discovery, let's say you want to discover a new cathode or new electrode material, right? How are you going to do that? We want to automate that process and and speed it up by thousands if not millions. That's our goal. It's pretty ambitious, but that's what we do you everyday, or try to do. Uh huh. Yeah. So that's what I've been up to.   Pouya LJ  02:11 Yeah. Thanks. That's amazing. Are you in Toronto?   Deep  02:14 Yes. Good.   Pouya LJ  02:15 Good. You're enjoying this weather?   Deep  02:17 Totally. Yeah. So nice. weather wise will enjoy it. Well, us.   Pouya LJ  02:21 Yeah. Well, that's true. That's going on soon. Probably next week. Still not that bad? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Anyways, so today, we are tackling a subject that I am very inept in? I have no idea. I mean, I know abstractly what it is, but I don't have any readings on it. I think you guys are more educated on this than me. But let's see how it goes. So we're talking about a bunch of different stuff. Actually, it's not one thing, but it's centered at logic propositions. And quantifiers. Do you want it? So this was the pathway was introduced to this conversation was introduced by golf? Do you want to start it off yourself?   Govind  03:06 Sure. Um, so when we think about logic, what comes to mind? Generally, it's things like, debate, you know, things that logic is associated with, or things like debate, and truth and false, maybe people who are in software development or would think of code. You know, there there are so many of these, these these concepts that come to your mind when you think of the word logic. You know, what, maybe maybe you guys can chime in with like, premium fallacy. When I say the word logic, one of the one of the things you think about,   Pouya LJ  03:35 no, I think I mean, I guess it depends on their perspective, as you were saying, but I think what you're saying it makes sense. I think, generally, people think about logic as reasoning, like step by step thinking. Thinking about, like, it depends, if you're asking a philosopher is a little bit different than a mathematician than a software, regular person going about their lives, not thinking about these things. But I think that just remains for most people.   Govind  04:05 Sure, what am I?   Deep  04:07 Yeah, when I think of logic, I think of two things, the more intuitive idea of logic, which is what I think every human has, right? We like to all believe that we're logical beings, right? What does that mean? We all know that mean something when I say it, but what does so I think, the intuitive idea that humans are logical insofar as they have a set of consistent rules that you can codify that have some sort of basis, right, you can derive next set of actions based on a set of let's say, axiom true principles, right. And they're logical in nature. For example, humans get hungry where you're cutting off I don't is that does that me or?   Govind  04:46 Oh, I can I can hear him fine. I think   Pouya LJ  04:48 that's me.   Deep  04:50 Do you want me to restart for you?   Pouya LJ  04:53 Okay, now that's better. Sorry. Okay. Sure. That's fine. Continue. Sorry.   Deep  04:56 Sure. So I was just saying that like from from the preset preset Something that's logical, or I would consider as logical is the idea of hunger, right? Like when a human is hungry? What would be logical next is that they're going to try to get food. Right? To me that's logical. And that and so that's an intuitive logic or system of systems are sets of logics that we just know from by nature. Then I think of the logic, when when when Govan asked me, What do I think when you know about logic, right? Like what comes to mind? Or how would I define it and whatnot. The second one is the formal, abstract idea of logic that we humans have that I think that maybe other creatures don't have. And and that's the mathematical ability or the mathematical perspective of logic, where you can look at, you can create systems like Boolean logic, you can generalize Boolean logic and look at how you can construct quantum computations in Universal computations. And propositional logic is totally different than what I just talked about. And so that's all these things are abstract logics, and it's different than the intuitive logic, sometimes.   Govind  06:07 Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's a great way of like, you know, describing the entire breadth of what logic? Thanks. Well, I think it comes down to the concept of truth and false, right, because you have to start with things you know, are true. And then you string these things that are true in certain ways that allows you to create certain implications, right? You, you, you start with a few facts, like, as a classic one, all men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is mortal, right? You know, you have these propositions you have you start with these facts, and then you put them together using some inference rules. But what I wanted to discuss in today's topic, as today's topic is this concept of truth and false itself. We really, as humans, we take truth and false kind of for granted as a discrete binary thing, right? You have something that's true, and it's not true, it's false. But is that really the case? And to further grounded discussion, I have a few quotes from this book. It's called fuzzy thinking. And it has it really explores this concept of how truth can be continuous or fuzzy, right? It's it's not it's not truth. It's like an on off switch. But it's actually like, on and goes all the way to off with like, several, maybe infinite steps in the way. So one quote I really like is, there was a mistake, and everyone in science seemed to make it. They said that all things were true or false. They were not always sure which things were true and which were false. But they were sure that all things were either true or false. So I thought that that is a really cool quote, because it points out this fact that this is really taken for granted, we don't really think about, you know, like, What is it? What does it mean for something to be true or false. And another quote, I think, would be interesting not to make this all the quotes I made this last one is a quote from Albert Einstein. So far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they're not certain. And so far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. Because, I mean, if you say something is true or false, the universe does not give a shit, you know, universe is going to do whatever it's doing. And we're just we're just creating these models where we say, Okay, these things are true, these things are false. And, and we're going to construct our models of reality based on it. But these models of reality are pretty much mental experiments that we perform across humans right? Now, it just so happens that it happens to be incredibly good at modeling reality, to the point where people can get confused and say that reality works based on the principles that we create, and the facts that we create, the things that we assign as true or false is what is allowing reality to work the way it is. But it's it's always important to know that there's this detachment between what's reality and what's what's, you know, our our collective, our thought experiment, which is, you can call it mathematics, philosophy, whatever any anything that we have, when we come together, we have discussions, even discussions like what we're having right now. They're, they're just, like, there's a separation from this and reality. And this is kind of exemplified by what's known as the law of the excluded middle in, in logic. So where if you have a proposition a, let's say, let's just call it P let's let's work in the realm of the abstracts, if you have a proposition p p could be something like, this is a fruit or a gob is a person, you know, things like that things, something that I can assign a truth value to true or false. So the law of the excluded middle is that for all propositions P, P, or not B, that is something can either be true or not true. Now, this this sounds like stupid, simple, right? It sounds kind of like okay, sure, something can either be true or false. But now, what's crazy is that several mathematicians in over the 20th century, were actually pushing back against including this principle and logic, they were saying, No, I want to construct a mathematics which doesn't have p or not p that is, p or not P is actually not true. According to these people. They were called the intuitionists. And this cause Like a massive, massive debate back in the 20th century. But I'll pause here and I'll get some comments from you guys like what do you think such a mathematics could actually look like?   10:11 So   Deep  10:12 the first thing that comes to mind is the idea of structural realism. Structural realism basically posits that whatever scientific and mathematical understanding that we get of the universe, it does not necessarily reflect on the true structure and nature of the universe, right? So, if you have a quote, of creations that describe gravity at the macroscopic scale, that does not mean that those equations are the true structure and nature of reality. And that's important because when we're, as you sort of alluded to Govan, like when we define something to be true or false, nature doesn't give a shit. Right, so to speak. And that's like, like, interesting enough, there's a philosophical question right there. Because what if it happens that structural realism is false. And ironically, there is some sort of mathematical truism, at least in the physics perspective, that we can define, and that it is actually a true reflection of reality. It is objectively the truth. Right? Like, we may not, it may actually be possible, who knows? So there and because we haven't actually answered that, you know, what I mean, that that philosophical idea yet, whether structural realism, is true or not, is very hard to it. Yeah, extend or resolve the conflicts that have occurred in the 20th century from logic? Because this is just an extension of that. What do you think?   Govind  11:50 Um, well, I think this this, this time in history was very interesting, you know, because, well, maybe, like, some historical context would be that, you know, this is the first time you have like, several extremely smart people from across the world coming together and creating a global, you know, like, hey, let's tackle the biggest questions in, in humanity, like any point in your thinking, right? So like, and I think this kind of resulted in probability, right? probability is something that emerged from the 20th century, I mean, some could argue the roots extend way back, but you know, like the roots for everything, then way back. But the reason I bring up probability in this in this argument is like, as, as humans now in the 21st century, we, our process of science is so fundamentally grounded in probability, right? Like, to the point where our models of reality are the closest models of reality, we have use probability necessarily, right? Think of all the discussions you've had with your friends regarding COVID, or all these other things. Most people tend to make arguments related to probability and case fatality rates, you know, these kind of like, almost baseball statistics, right? Like I say, baseball statistics, just to kind of ground that and make it more like, you know, you see where I'm going with this, right? It's just that probability has created this kind of way that of making seen things our model seems so real, that you can actually see them and you can actually see their measure their impact on them. Right, this in fact, in mathematics, this the, let's call it the backbone of probability is called measure theory. Right. And I think this kind of lends itself to, well, some of the stuff you're working on, right, the quantum models of reality. So I think I think structural realism is something that is extremely effective, because it's, it's, it works on observations of reality, behind the scenes, and it actually kind of gets there. I mean, I'm using structural realism, maybe I'm, I'm conflating it with some mathematical context that are quantitation that it does not come with out of the box. I hope, I hope my point is clear.   Deep  13:51 Yeah, I understand your point completely. Um, quia. What do you think about this idea of an objective truth in nature? Um, do you think that it actually exists? And should we possess it? logic around that idea? Or the, or the rejection of the idea? Yeah. How important should that rule be?   Pouya LJ  14:12 Um, that's a very good question. Actually, I have started this long project, which is in the background for my own sake, I actually came up thought of this question a while back. I mean, everybody thought of thinks about these things, but more seriously started thinking about this insert. Getting onto some avenue to, you know, think about Yes. Is there an objective reality? And then that's literally the question to ask myself that started me on this journey. And you know, I I talk to some people from different walks of life, from psychology to philosophy to physics and what have you, some people who are at the top of their fields. I didn't. I mean, I did ask them this question, which is not the point. But from there our conversation, my conversation with them. What I got is that, no, from, from, from the real essence of the question, like the deepest sense of the question. And what I gather from all of those conversation conversations is that, again, we not the way we understand our world, our universe, maybe there is maybe there is a formalism that will get us there. But at least not with anything we have this, you know, far we've gotten discovery in science and philosophy thought. So. I, I think ultimately there is that's just a guesswork, obviously, like hypothesizing, but not in the sense that. So, let me put it this way. So for example, when GM Govan was saying that there's a spectrum of truth, I think that is, that is, that is true, until you get to the, to the resolution to the, to the, to the pixel of reality, essentially, at some point, it has to be one or the other. But we didn't get there yet. So that's my sense of it. That's my sense is that yes, it will eventually be some sort of objectiveness in reality, but it requires a better understanding of that reality that the fundamental laws of our universe, and that is not just gravity, gravity is, for example, gravity is emergent, from my perspective, and that that sense?   Govind  16:49 Well, I think you're gonna be happy, because initially, you wanted this discussion to be more about the nature of reality. And I think it's creeping into there. So I'll talk a little bit about the nature of reality as examined by Western philosophers. So there's a Descartes, notably, in the in the history of Western philosophy in like, let's say, the early modern period, which is like on 1600s, to like present day, or 1600 to 1800, is about the early modern period, we had these different movements, we started with rationalism, which is that, you know, like, we just, we just say things like, create these elaborate logical models. And then, and then we, we kind of examine, we use this as descriptions of reality. And then this kind of God rejects. And notably, Rene Descartes was kind of like a huge figure in this movement, because he said things like, the mind is its own soft, separate substance. And to tie that back to this discussion, what I was saying earlier about the realm of, of imaginary, thought experiments that we work with, in different fields like mathematics, computer science, and so on. He thought that it was its own separate universe that was completely detached from our, the universe that we live in. And he, I mean, these are the things he's saying, right? Like, I mean, he could be right, he could be wrong, but like, he's like, he's using logic as a means to tie together his his arguments. But at the end of the day, these are just things he's saying. And he's just using logic to create an elaborate story, an elaborate logical model. And this is the criticism that the next movement kind of gave to the rationalists. They were called the empiricist. People like David Hume, and I think mill or Locke, john Locke was in there. But they were like, hey, you're just saying things, you know, you're just you're just creating, you're just like, this is basically a story that I'm reading. And you're just like, Well, God is this and God is that. Savage. Exactly. And they're like David Hume, one of his famous philosophical quotes is like, you know, you can, you can't say for sure that the sun is gonna rise tomorrow, we see it rise every day. And we take it for granted, we have these explanations for it. But at the end of the day, these are just explanations, you know, I mean, at this point, they hadn't invented spacecraft and all that stuff yet, you know, they couldn't just go up there and see the sun.   Deep  19:09 Well, even then, like it did, there's still a philosophical point to that, like, even then we may not, despite everything we know, today, you know, I mean, the sun might not rise like there's   Govind  19:21 exactly that's, that's, that's   Deep  19:22 apparently physical reasons. I'm not even saying like magical reasons. But yeah,   Govind  19:26 So so they completely dismiss these, the rationalist arguments using this, it's like, if I don't see it, you know, it doesn't exist. So, you know, show me the proof, show me the reality of things. Got it. Um, and eventually, this kind of got resolved somewhat by Kant, Emmanuel Kant, who came in the, I believe, late 1700s, early 1800s. And he, he, he's like, Okay, guys, how do we resolve this? Because there's clearly some value in using logic to describe reality. And there's definitely value in talking about things that we can see and perceive and sense right. So his Way of reconciling this was to say that was to bring in the human aspect of things like how we perceive things. And he thought that that played an important role. In fact, what we call space time, were intuitions, he described them as intuitions. So humans have an intuition of space and an intuition of time, which is what allows us to perceive these things in reality. To make that more clear, he's he's telling the Emperor says, Hey, the things that you think you perceive, so clearly, maybe they're not that clear, you know, you are trapped behind your veil of perception at the end of the day. And again, like this is all to talk about the objective nature of reality, right? As humans, we can't help but be stuck behind the fact that everything we're perceiving is just what we're perceiving. There's another quote from Descartes, you know, it's, I think, therefore I am. It's one of like, the most famous quotes from philosophy, I think. But it's, it's basically that, for him thinking was such a rational endeavor, right? He thinks that just because he has this stuff running on in his head, like this voice that goes like, blah, blah, blah, and in his head, that's, that's why he knows for real, that He exists, like, no matter what, I have this thing that allows me to, like, perceive and like, you know, like, I don't know, if you guys are real, I don't know, my computer's I know, there's something going on here. You know, that's kind of his point there. And Kant was saying, you know, there's a human element of things you just can't strip away from, from anything real, right. So that's a little bit of a background in this in, well, let's say Western philosophical thinking about this, this this topic.   Deep  21:27 That's awesome. Um, and, you know, a lot of its circles, it's all circling and tying back in to itself in an interesting way. And here's what I mean by that. So, to your point about how deep you know, probability is in quantum mechanics, right? It plays a huge role, a fundamental role. For literally since the birth of it, you know, physicists both on the quantum computing and sorry, quantum physics side of things, and the classical physics side of things, believed that there should be some sort of a clear description of the wavefunction and information that we can eventually have access to and predict perfectly. So like, just, there's there was this idea that we'll eventually be able to predict the exact nature of the collapse, the wave function will know when it will collapse, and into what outcome it will collapse, rather than just knowing the probability. And you know, fast forward 100 years later, we've made essentially zero progress in making that stochastic process any less stochastic to us. And so it's really like sad react Sony, right? Like for the people who, who believe like, go when you and I've had tons of discussions about determinism and whether the universe is and Buddha unites was actually all three of us. And so quantum mechanics quickly touches on that. And then there's the objective reality question. There's the witness friend paradox. experiments, right that were recently conducted, again, two years ago, where you had two different labs instead, posing as a weakness friend, basically, it's a witness paradox is a paradox that was created in the 60s it was proposed by the famous physicist Wagner, and essentially, what he said was that if there are given the fact that the wavefunction encodes the all the possible measurables and observables, for a given observer, then the wavefunction is going to be different for different observers. And if that's true, then they're going to have eventually conflicting facts about the universe. And so he said, that's a paradox, right? And it turns out that it's true that two years ago, in those days, it is insane, because two years ago, we actually ran these quantum physical experiments where we took a well being split using beamsplitters, we essentially used quantum entangled photons. And we've been into two different labs, and you have people, you have what's called witness friends inside the lab, and then Wagner or like the observers outside the lab. And so all four people in this experiment, none of them can observe each other. We're measuring each other's photons directly, they can perform measurements to see if a measurement hasn't done, but they can't. Yeah, so that so if you want to think about it physically, they're splitting at the end of the experiment, one particle that was turned into four quantum entangled pairs, so through Bell state pairs and beamsplitters you really have these so if you want visualize that, so imagine, like I take a ball of physical ball, and I cut it in four pieces, and I give it right to four different people. Here's a weird thing about the huge We're gonna experiment what ended up happening is that Imagine if I asked those four people to look at, if I to record the color of their ball, right, let's say I cut up a red ball. And and I gave a piece to everybody, everybody has a red ball in theory right? v a piece that's red. What ended up happening is that these people, of course, were quantum mechanics, there's one caveat, right? You can expect the ball to change colors, that's fine, you can, you can expect it to change either red or green. So that's let's say, you can measure spin up, spin down totally fine. What and what what we did was, let's say I did this, I took a red ball, I gave it to four of my friends. And then they did measurements, knowing that it'll change red, green, red, green, sometimes. I, it turns out that when they did those measurements, and they all got back to each other, and they looked at their lists, and the measurements that they did on each individual piece themselves, the colors didn't add up. So So I so imagine this, like, imagine if I looked at my list, and I observed red, green, green, red, green, red, and you observe green, green, green, green, green, red. So you were looking at a different piece of the ball. How's that even possible? When I physically split the same objective ball? It's not it's, well, technically you shouldn't have been, but it is like, in fact, what's happening is that literal conflict and objective facts about reality, where you have people who participated in a physical experiment, use the same physical measurement tools and came up with different conflicting facts   Govind  26:31 that is completely wild. Yeah, no, that's physics anymore. You know, this is like something just so beyond anything.   Deep  26:41 Yeah, I mean, it is very edgy. Yeah. See? What we know, dude.   Govind  26:45 Yeah. Oh, my God. That's, that's insane. Everyone reminds me of the banach tarski paradox, right? Like, I mean, these kind of things happen on mathematics, and we're totally fine with it. Right. So the banach tarski paradox is like, imagine you have a sphere, a sphere that's composed of like, let's, let's call them like, an infinite number of droplets that are holding together this fear, right? It's like this basketball. So the banach tarski paradox says that there is a way to separate out, like, just choose all the points, like a whole bunch of these points that are in here, like these droplets, and then you take them out, and then you move them away. And these are just solely choosing the points, while granted infinite number of points, you're telling them to go somewhere else. And using this, you can actually create a perfect clone of the ball, right? You have two different copies of the ball using the exact same number of particles. So you can do all these weird things with infinity in the world of the abstract, you know, where we're fun things happen, and everyone's everyone's happy and dancing all the time. You know, like, yeah, they're like, we're okay with all kinds of crazy things happening. But man, when this spills over into reality, it's like, we all lose our shit. Because, you know, yeah, literally not believing.   Deep  27:54 That's right. That's right.   Pouya LJ  27:57 Yeah, and so, um, so what, what, what do you do, but especially because you're, you're actually very close to these experience. What does that what does that make you feel? What does that? What? What does that? Do you think it means? What does that say about that objective reality, if you will? What is your thought?   Deep  28:17 Yeah, it will, what it tells me is that there's likely some sort of, clearly a multiverse situation going on, where almost it's like, we're maybe that maybe each agent that can be concerned, considered an observer or anything that can be considered capable of measurement, right? We don't know how far that extends. We just don't know those answers. But I believe that everything that can is on some unique multiverse, and we all just have our own timelines intersecting with each other. That's what that told me. It no longer feels like, we share one objective physical space. It's like, you know, I mean, we just have like, the these rays instead. That intersect. So it, I found, frankly, I found it psychologically disturbing when I read the experiment and the results. And I don't think that there's no way around it. It's just but it's fascinating stuff. So yeah,   Pouya LJ  29:17 yeah, no, I, it does make sense. Yeah, what you're saying like, I mean, obviously, there has to be so that to me, either. There's another explanation such as the multiverse situation, or maybe there is no objective reality. Well, in a sense, at the end of the day, if you're living in a multiverse with different set of facts, and you're building all of your rules based on those axioms that you get from FX x, or whatever, a different set of axioms will say. Then, who's to say which universe is the reference universe, or the main universe or truth? So maybe maybe there isn't any objective reality which, which to me, And then that's my whole thing. That was my whole thing about this objective reality. I asked this question going in thinking, yes, there is, and we can't just find it yet. But let's pose the assumption that Yeah, no, there is no objective reality, then to me, it's a little bit more humanistic again, talk, but it just shows me how arrogant we've become of a thing called, you know, science and discovery. And we're just, we're just going forward thinking that we're supposed to know the answer to, to everything, we have to figure it out. And that and that's fine to try. But also I think it this whole phenomena should should give us some notion of Okay, there is there there should be a little bit a bit a degree of humility, in what in what we do as discoverers of this universe, which is, to me the most beautiful parts. Again, I'm like, this is being poetic as a human thing. But that's at the end of the day. That's who we are. And I think I think we should appreciate that part as well. Sorry, I'm just going to close this loop on this poem that I just composed here. But Okay, back to Golf. How does that make you feel? from someone who's a little bit more distant? Personally,   Govind  31:28 I think it's very interesting to use the word pool there because, well, since since this, this discussion has kind of been underpinned by logic and language and all that kind of stuff. There's this philosopher Martin Heidegger, his his entire take was like, we need to kind of escape from the confines of language and the kind of thinking that is inevitable, just because of language being the way it is, right? Because it's like, realistically, we all have our own personal language. It's like, I have my own language. And when I say that, I don't mean like my own version of English, I mean, my own, let's like, composition of thoughts, experiences, feeling senses, right? Like, if I remember, if I smell a perfume from my past, like, I'm gonna have like, these nostalgic experiences and all that stuff, right? And, and that really, that's part of that's a word or like maybe a phrase in like, personal language. And whenever I'm talking, what I'm doing is I'm converting from my, I'm translating from my personal language to English, right? In this case, and then and then you have to, like convert that back to your personal language. And men composition is really hard, like, how do we do it? Given this this context, but Heidegger, his his attempt to improve language, was by positing that we move to poetry as a way of expressing ourselves purely because he thought poetry had this innate ability to capture our personal language, right? Because when we write poetry, it's such a, like, poetry is a hard thing to understand, right? Like, sometimes you read poetry, and I'm like, What the heck is going on? But it's just because it's, it's the poets like attempt to try to bring out their personal language as much as possible, right. And I would argue that most of art is the same process. So I mean, in, and I want to tie this back to like, the point I made earlier about us trying to escape the confines of our own existence, right, like, the the confines of our of our human infrastructure, the way we do that, I think poetry is a very, very cool way of and it's kind of cool that emerged from this discussion as well. That's kind of a case in point.   Pouya LJ  33:23 Yeah. No, I I think so. Yes, I think I understand. So it's the least amount of filters like art, I suppose, like, closest to you as it gets, I suppose. So, so yes, I, and that's what I've been going back and forth a lot. Like I obviously, as somebody who cares about, you know, methodical thinking, logical thinking, and, you know, rationale, reason, etc. That is very valuable, especially if you if we want resolved in this in this world of ours, because at the end of the day, we can get a lot with the our version of you know, reality that we have in this very pocket that we are living in, in the whole the whole universe and in space and time. But going beyond that, I think there there has and that is where I think they kind of, you know, overlap the the field, let's call it science and art, if you will, I don't, I don't like to make huge distinction, like borderline distinction distinctions, generally personally, but I think in an entirety, society does make it very, like black and white distinction between these two, which I think there is a good amount of overlap, and that is, we're   Govind  34:44 talking fuzziness, right, it's all about being fuzzy and accepting it for what it is as opposed to what we want it to be that maybe seems more perfect to us, right? Like these molds seem more perfect to us. But the reality is, nothing is a mold like everything is fuzzy, right? Like I think the example is like such a mind. looming realization of that.   Pouya LJ  35:02 Yeah, no, that's that's true. And what one way one can raise a question. I suppose that what makes us want the I mean, I have I have one answer. But let's let me just pose the question first. What makes us as who we are humans, again, within this infrastructure, once this clarity of binary of, you know, not being fuzzy, but rather completely distinct or True or false? Well, what are your thoughts on that?   Govind  35:35 Well, I remember we actually think I think we did a podcast on this a little bit ago about like the nature of chaos, right? Some people, most people I think, are very averse to chaos, because they like things being simple and easy to understand. Right? What I mean, the more, let's say, foolhardy among us, for lack of a better word, like kind of naturally as gravitated towards chaos, because I think chaos is just such a good description of reality. But the problem is that chaos, by definition is incredibly, incredibly complex, right? So you don't you don't have the simplicity of like, you know, two plus two equals four, right? You're like, what's two? what's plus? What's four? What's the quality?   Pouya LJ  36:14 That sounds like you checked, you just say, yeah, smoke some weed or something? Like what is to man?   Govind  36:23 I thought this was Joe Rogan.   Pouya LJ  36:27 Oh, it could be anyway. No, I think so. Okay, let me go back to how about you do and don't share my thoughts?   Deep  36:38 Yes. So, first of all, it's super interesting about the nature of fuzziness, especially when we think about Zeno's paradox. Because even that is a great example. You know, I still contend that we have not resolved the paradox of why is it that we can make contact with anything, right? Why is it that I'm even touching the floor right now, despite the poly exclusion principle? And, you know, Zeno's paradox, right?   Govind  37:10 xenos paradox.   Deep  37:11 Sure. So So, so xenos paradox. It's really a family of paradoxes. But it all comes down to the fact that, I'll give you an example. Let's say that you want to reach the end of the hallway. And your rule that you impose on yourself is that you're going to have your distance in order to get to the hallway, and you'll have your distance, every single time until you get to the end of the hallway. And so let's say the, you're 10 feet away from the end of the hallway, then the next time the next move you make you're five feet away, then two and a half, then 1.25, and so on and so forth. And until you go to point 000000125, blah, blah, blah, but it'll never be zero, right? It never touches zero. So at no point, will you ever actually reach the end of the hallway. So Zeno's paradox, what basically asks, Why do you never, why do you touch the end of the hallway? Why is it that in real life, we end up making it to the other side, despite the fact that these infinite distances, you know, taking any slice of an infinite still infinite so so he just had all these questions about it. Yeah, spacetime. Very deep questions to the thousands of years ago on so and we still haven't answered them properly. And yeah,   Govind  38:34 well, I have a point about that. But I know if we are you're you're itching to talk about your, your perspective on it. Go ahead. Oh, you're on mute. Oops, sorry.   Pouya LJ  38:45 First of all, I want to say that I, I sent a photo and chat A while ago, and I think I diverted deeps attention to that kind of concept, which was I don't know if you saw the, the the rabbit or whatever it is. It wants to go get a haircut. I'll put this in the show notes, by the way, but it's a half off haircut. Did you guys see that one?   Deep  39:12 Right now? That is funny. Yeah, I'll put this   Pouya LJ  39:16 in the show notes. So that people who are listening to this, they can just find it out. But I know this is exactly what you're talking about. It'll gonna take forever. So yeah, you're right. But why do we actually get that haircut and the half of haircut eventually? No, I think so. First of all, all of these are exactly to my point that there's there's there is probably a sea of things that we just don't know about the nature of our universe, the one that even forget about objective reality, the one that we even perceive. And maybe one can make an argument that the reason with the fatalities of our of our views are the questions that we cannot answer is because of the fact that our realities are not completely overlapping the objective one, and that's where those those are the the edge cases that are actually creating these problems, perhaps. But true. Beyond that, I think there's a, there's a degree of obsession amongst many, many people, most people probably besides besides the ones who are embracing chaos, I suppose as go and was putting it, that we did a good good amount of like humanity essentially once a clear answer to two things and sometimes takes shortcuts through through, you know, ideologies that might not have, you know, rational rationale behind them. Just to get to those answer, why am I here? Why, like, because I have to be tested here to go to heaven, part of the some of the religious ideologies, or, or what is the nature of our unit? Why is the sun come up? I feel a first of all does is going to come up tomorrow or, and then we come up with these answers, and everybody through their own ways try to answer these definitively. And part of that is I think, now it's a little bit of more philosophical questions, I suppose, or answer rather thoughts, I suppose. But I think part of that is because we understand our own mortality by binary, which is the most did the deepest, probably driver of our existence, and that is either we're dead or alive, there's no, I'm half dead. I was like, well, maybe you're sick a little bit, but you're not half dead. So I and there is there's a degree that we and there's an understanding that when I die, I there's like, there's no coming back from that. I mean, I'm obviously there are exceptions, sometimes. Some people, some people, flatline they come back. But if you're flatlining for a week, you're not coming back from that, right? So so there's, there's a permanency to that experience that and and, and our deepest drive is to avoid that. So to avoid that clear, at least, at least from our mortal, mortal perspective, clear, true or false If true, being your dead and false being your life. That is clear that okay, if I'm, if I'm talking right now, as the card would say that I exist. In a more biological setup, sense, I'm not dead. And, and, and it drives all those questions, I suppose. But again, like, also going back to language as a logical tool, essentially. What do you think there's going to be a funny question, what do you think people before language would think? Would they have similar thoughts to these things? Now? I mean, obviously, in a simpler case, and not thinking like quantum physics, I suppose. But what do you think all of these are fatalities of language that we're carrying with ourselves? Or is it drive by language? Or is it more fundamental? So if we didn't have language for people who didn't invent language yet, back in? I don't know how long ago? Would they have similar thoughts? Do you think?   Govind  43:11 Well, I think we do have animals, right? Like, I mean, when we have these, you have any pets? Do you   Pouya LJ  43:17 mean no? Okay, before, but I know Okay, yeah. No, but I can understand what you're where you're going.   Govind  43:24 But when you have, like interactions with animals, I love animals. It's almost like you have this communication with them. That's that's not like you. I mean, I don't I can see versus and they probably don't understand me, unless all animals know English, and they just choose to ignore us. And they like humans are too stupid. There was a   Pouya LJ  43:43 cabal of animals deciding that this is not a good idea. Yes.   Govind  43:48 Lots of Rick and Morty episodes. But yeah, no, I think I mean, it's just that that awareness that being that's that's just there right? I think that is rooted in language fundamentally. Like I don't I don't know if we can actually get past this. This like our art like the language that we have developed evolved and developed is like it serves a very good purpose which is sharing thoughts with each other sharing these these like awareness experiences with each other right? But at the root of it all like I mean, it's all about that awareness and you brought up such a great point about death right? And how death is that binary which kind of makes us realize like you know, like there is such a thing as a clear like a clear line drawn in the in the northern sand like a line drawn in the concrete You know, this this is it like you know, there's life and then there's not life so so that that is actually such a such a great point about why negations work in this in this sense. I seem to have lost you guys   Pouya LJ  44:47 know, we can hear you. Okay. Oh, yeah, your picture froze, but I can hear you so that's good. Excellent.   Govind  44:53 Yeah. Well, yeah, that's that's the point I wanted to make. You know, it's a it's like these these ideas do exist, but I'm sure Animals have a notion of death as well. Right? And animals. Oh, yeah. Their their experiences and all that.   Pouya LJ  45:05 Yeah, no. And that's true. The notion of death is obviously at least in its more primal sense of obvious. Obviously, they're, they're trying to avoid it. But there are no but my point was, so so the rabbit holes that we go to and get stuck in it, then half of the way to the destination, and then half it, and then half of them and have it is this. My This is what is this? Now? Now this one is not as outside of language, actually, some, I'm kind of negating myself, but is a lot of these problems with language and and how we're communicating with each other. Because honestly, like, there are instances that I think I should have been thinking about this. Do I think with myself, like when there's nobody else, I don't have to communicate with anybody else. I don't need to use language, English, Farsi, whatever, to communicate with other people. But is there any any? Do I communicate with myself with my thoughts, in language or outside of language? And I've been thinking about this for a while and trying to observe it? And part of it is that, yeah, yeah, most of my thoughts are us using language. But yes, there are pockets sometimes that I feel like, there's a thought that I can't even express it to myself, using language. It's that the, maybe that that's the that's for, like, there's a fog. And I'm perceiving it. There's some sort of experience behind it. But I can't even describe that experience for us. Like, I mean, what what is like, so what is it sounds like an impression of a thought, right? Because a thought is a thought when you're able to express it, maybe? Yeah, so i think i think that that becomes super clear. Well, okay, let me let me give you so this is a, this is going to be a little bit of an exaggeration. Like, it's not what I'm thinking about. So the one that I'm thinking about is more of a thought. But think about this, when you're extremely fearful for your life at a very moment notice of, you know, hitting, you know, you have to you have to run there's there's a, there's a specific quality to that fear. And you're thinking, Okay, maybe there's a bear in front of you. And your thought is that we're going to grab this knife, but are you really thinking in terms of wars, I am going to grab this knife, you see a knife, you you want to grab it, you know what I mean? That's a thought that I'm going to grab this knife, but it's not really in any language. And that is really forced when I think I can see myself doing that, at least, when it comes to the precipice of like some sort of when it combines with some sort of very strong emotion such as, okay, I have to grab this knife or gun or whatever, shoot this bear, I'm not thinking to myself, okay, I am going to grab a gun, and I am going to pull the trigger at this. No, that's not it, you just know, right? That's a   Govind  48:01 possibility. It's like you're like, the way I think of it is like, it's almost like a design space of everything that could possibly happen given what's around you. Right? So it's like you're sampling from this design space. Like one of these events, for example, is like you picking up a knife or like, you know, you punching someone in the face. This is around you. Something like it's like these are these are just, I think the mind is really good at generating these kind of things, which is just sampling points from, from this design space of what's around us, right? Yeah. And then and then these are actions or like, these are these are impressions. Yeah. It's like, yeah, we just, we just like, we have all these things around this, like stimulus. And our mind is generating these things. And most of the time, it's like, it's pretty pragmatic. It's like, Oh, you have to put on your shoes to walk. It's like this thing you tell yourself, but you're not really thinking you're doing things. But like, sometimes it's just like random thoughts. Like it's our mind is a pretty interesting random number generator. Deep. What are your thoughts on that?   Deep  49:00 Okay, it really is. I agree with that. I mean, you can always say that, uh, you know, all of our output all of our, I've always wondered, you know, the, what is it the thousand monkey or the infinite monkey experiment or thought experiment where what would happen if you let monkeys play with a typewriter for an infinite amount of time, right? There's the idea that they would eventually create Shakespeare. And it makes me question the idea of creativity and thought, is it a linear combination of what you already know? Or is it truly something that will eventually appear emergent from random fucking monkey? Monkey actions, right? Like, what what is true intelligent creativity? So with that being said, I really had a I was thinking, though, you know, on that note about us looking at death and life is binary. That's true. We are classical creatures, like we observe the universe in classical sense, right? Everything is and so because it's macroscopic to us, I wonder, what if? What does life look like for, let's say, micro organism that doesn't experience the world classically like we do, right? What if there are, there are quantum organisms that are only experiencing the world and quantum mechanics? To them, there would be literally no such thing as a classical I am dead or classical life. What does that mean? What What does death for that organism look like? So yeah, I was just thinking about that. But you guys think,   Pouya LJ  50:34 yeah, no, you're you're dragging us into the pan psychism   Govind  50:41 the movie arrival, right? With the whole concept of like, circular time and all these things, right? Like, this is some I think, innovations of the 21st century like, exploring this, these kind of ideas. I see so many outlets for this in different TV shows and movies and all that stuff. Like this, this like convergence of everything, how everything is one and many at the same time. Right? Well, I guess the fuzziness of everything, right. Like everything is just really fuzzy. And we're, as humanity starting to accept it, which is, you know, really freakin cool.   Pouya LJ  51:12 No, no, it is. And you mentioned an arrival It reminds me of, so I think if I'm not mistaken. Okay, maybe I'm mistaken. But let me let me just make it maybe, you know, I think Stephen Wolfram was an advisor in that movie. I don't know if he really I don't know. That's that I I'm doubting myself now. So anybody out there listening. Please double check for yourselves. Don't quote me on it. But which reminds me he actually I don't know if we're familiar. Actually. I   51:40 don't know why I did a quick Google and   Pouya LJ  51:43 it is like it's okay. Yeah. And he came up with this new What is it? What do you call it? Geez. new stuff. Yeah, he is hypergraph.   Deep  51:56 Physics.   Pouya LJ  51:57 Yes. Yeah. Have you heard about that? Did you look into it?   Deep  52:01 Yeah, I   52:04 I liked it.   Pouya LJ  52:06 So what are your thoughts on that? But super quickly, I don't want to go to a different deep rabbit hole right now. But it reminded me of him when you mentioned arrival.   Deep  52:14 Sure. I mean, various.   Pouya LJ  52:16 I don't know, Dad Galvin. Are you familiar with what it is? Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Okay. Okay. Cool. Cool. Good.   Deep  52:22 Yeah, just very briefly, I mean, the idea of like, Come complex, physical phenomena from simple rules is nothing new, right. Like that's been talked about for 100 years. What was really interesting was the idea of using causal graphs or attempting to use just like these hyper graphs to encode physical rules. Yeah, I think it's promising. I'd love to see experiments and math and more rigor. But the ideas are cool. Like Stephen Wolfram is really, like he has some fundamental thoughts there that are interesting, unique worth pursuing.   Govind  52:56 These are usually a pioneer of this kind of this kind of funky fuzzy stuff. Right, right. Yeah. Yes, geez theory so much with his work on automata and all that stuff. Well, this release. I mean, I wanted to bring back this point from about 15 minutes ago. We were talking about Zeno's paradoxes. Yeah, a conversation topic for a future podcasts definitely should be the nature of calculus, right? Because, yeah, the way we as humans, resolve Zeno's paradoxes was to create this notion of a limit, we just throw a limit on it. And we say, at some point, it does, it does converge on to this value, right? Like, and I'm like, okay, so you keep cutting the half of your hair. And at some point, you're, you're going to get a full haircut, right? Like, even if you get the convergence now that that notion of convergence, it turns out is not strongly understood by by humans. But I think that's something we need to discuss. And I it stands out for me, because this is one of the first discussions we ever had. Right? Exactly. Yeah.   Deep  53:57 Yeah, absolutely. Talking   Govind  53:58 about limits and how like, that's what I think I first realized I'm like, this doesn't make any sense, does it? It's just, we just put   Deep  54:04 it is it is a great because some that is it all stemmed from some Berkeley kid asking us like, like, about it, right? Like he's like, yeah, this like this. And then yeah,   Govind  54:15 yeah. Yeah. Cool stuff. No, but I think we should explore that in in the next podcast or though sounds good. Sounds good?   Pouya LJ  54:24 No, I think I think okay, well, we made the plan. I don't know about the dates. We'll talk about that later. But next sub subject of the next conversation will be calculus, and its origins, its fundamentals. axioms, I suppose. Okay, I think that's a good. Here's a good stopping point. We almost went full hour here. Is there anything else you want to, you know, close the loop on before we leave this conversation?   Govind  54:54 Well, for me, I think I learned so I mean, I had these thoughts about fuzzy fuzzy thinking and all that stuff. And it was Kind of like in the let's let's see the disk of my, the my external hard disk of my brain is just forgotten there. So it's great to brush the dust off. And I feel like I really kind of added to these models based on this conversation. So yeah, it was very cool. I think we achieved fuzziness today. Yes.   Pouya LJ  55:18 That's great. How about you?   Deep  55:20 Yeah, I would just say that I really appreciated the perspective of the history of history philosophy, with respect to logic, a super neat perspective that you brought to the table or Govind and yeah, just different perspectives that were shared today. Um, it's awesome. It does make things more fuzzy. And yeah, let's keep it going. Guys, I, I think that there's a lot of interesting questions. We post here today. So   Pouya LJ  55:47 okay, and if anybody wants to share their thoughts, feel free you can reach go in and deepen their respective social media, which I'm going to put in the show notes. Don't need to repeat them here. You can you can find them there.   56:01 And comment guys.   Pouya LJ  56:04 Make it make it dirty. No, keep it clean. And all right, stay fuzzy until later episode.   Deep  56:11 Cheers, guys.  

Hog Story #117 – Flashing Audio – Exec. Prod. Mutter – Carolyn and John are joined in the smoker by Dame Lisa Bemrose! What What!?

LEARN MORE ABOUT THE CONTENT DISCUSSED…• FCS Podcast: https://fcspodcast.com• FCS Tips: https://www.fcstips.com• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ConnectFCSed• Twitter: https://twitter.com/Scully6Files• Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/connectfcsed• Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/connectfcsed• Michelle Brown's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiNoh_4RorT44IBGLbotV9w KEYNOTES DISCUSSED:•  How am I going to teach cooking? But I'm at home. And so I thought about doing a YouTube channel, and I have a 12-year-old. She's like, Mom, I can help you with all of that. Editing, some thumbnails, you name it, I know how to do it. I went baby, how do you know? But yeah, she knew how, she had to train me. It was so free, I'm like, Baby, I'd wake her up. Mommy needs to get this video out, How do I edit this, how do I add the title? And so she's been my little assistant, which is so awesome. (7:18)•  When I first started, I wanted it to be just like I was doing a demo in front of the students in the classroom, the physical classroom, so I'd lay all this stuff out, but I'm like, Okay, you're going to need this, this, this, this, and... I have all the tools and equipment and all the ingredients, and then I wanted to go step by step, so if a kid had to pause it and go find it, or I break in egg and then they break egg and they pause it, and then they can follow along without feeling like they're going to get lost. (9:21)•  I think all of us got thrown into this, and nobody could have ever imagined that we find ourself in 2020 in this kind of position. And so I think everybody's scrambling trying to figure out, what am I doing?... I think some teachers were just, had a better or easier... We're able to slide into it at a better pace... I know, I'm probably not saying this right. But, other teachers are like, What? What's YouTube or what's a Schoology, or what is a puzzle!... Oh my gosh, it's like a whole new lingo out there. (13:57)•  So I'm always trying to be one step ahead. Yeah... During the spring, I had my students, I would go... I want you to go out, look in your pantry, or you're cupboards, whatever it is, and I want you to pull out five ingredients that you can actually make something, and make it from scratch.  (20:17)•   I just have an iPad propped up on a tripod, and it actually works really slick, so I don't use my phone, but I might, but I really like the iPad. And then, I can get it right off the iPad and have the apps right on there, so that's nice, I like it. Well, you're giving me ideas and you've given me some hope that I can do this, I can cross over and to making stuff in the kitchen. (28:07) WHEN DOES IT AIR…September 23, 2020

Oatly | Mike Messersmith, President, North America Milk. It’s good for coffee, cereal, shakes. Just an all around good drink. And where does it come from? [Imagine a cow moo'ing here. You can hear it in the episode, I promise.] No! Well, yes, but also no! What? What are you talking about Adam? You’ll have to find out on today’s Authentic Avenue. Oatly! A Swedish dairy substitute powerhouse that’s been around for 25 years. But only in the US for about 3. Mike Messersmith has been their North American president during this ride, and together he and the brand have ridden the wave of different alternative beverages hitting the market. And today I learn a slew of new terms: oat milk, oatfinder, "oatgurt." Yes, I said "oatgurt." So whether you’re a frequent consumer or have no idea what I just said, I think you’ll get a lot of our conversation today with the brand that works hard to be The Oat GOAT. So pour a glass with me and listen in as I get real with Oatly and Mike Messersmith. Try the Oatfinder and get yourself some Oatly! https://us.oatly.com/pages/oatfinder FOLLOW AUTHENTIC AVENUE ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/AuthenticAve/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/authenticavemedia/ Email Adam: adam@authenticavenuemedia.com Learn more at https://authenticavenuemedia.com/. Theme Song: Extreme Energy (Music Today 80) Composed & Produced by Anwar Amr Video Link: https://youtu.be/8ZZbAkKNx7s

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week, we are joined by Antoine Bandele, author, publisher, and a lot-of-other-stuff-er. He's a busy guy who knew what he wanted out of the fantasy maps for his series world of Esowon, and found help on Fiverr to see it realized. You'll want to start out, if possible, with his page of maps open in a browser: https://www.antoinebandele.com/esowon-maps We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us your favorite novel covers! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 43: The Maps of Esowon, Cartography with Antoine Bandele transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] K: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. My name’s Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisition editor for Parvus Press.   R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore and today we have a very, very awesome guest. This is Antoine Bandele. He happened to write a book that I happened to read recently and when Kaelyn suggested that we do a whole series on artwork, I said,” Ooh! We should talk about cartography, and I have the book and the author for this episode.”   K: Yeah, we said Artwork August, it became more “Artwork Series.” But cartography is a really important and, I think frequently underappreciated, certainly, part of a book. You know, as Antoine mentions in the episode, fantasy books especially, it’s almost expected that you have some kind of a map or something in there.    R: It might be overlooked as far as the work that goes into it, but if it’s not there, it will not be overlooked.   K: Yeah.   R: Your fans will be talking to you about, “Excuse me?! You invented a world?!”   K: Visual representation of this world.   R: Yeah. So this was a series of maps at the beginning of the book that I read, which was By Sea and Sky, an Esowon story, and there were a series of maps at the beginning, including a diagram of one of the vessels in, as the title kind of gives it away by sea and sky, so there’s an airship and there’s a great, even just a layout of the airship. Almost plan-like, ship...plans.   K: A schematic.   R: Schematic! That works. I took interior design for a year, I don’t know what to call the drawings. Hey! Drawings! That’s what we called them.   K: Pictures. Pictures of boats.   R: Yes. So, almost like a draftperson’s drawing of an airship concept. So those are all in the beginning of the book and, when I opened them, I was just like—I don’t know if they loaded. Because you know an eBook will load to a certain page when you open it and, like, you have to go back to see the preceding pages.   I always go back to the cover because I always wanna see how the cover looks on an eReader because this is just a minor point of mine. And I happened to see the artwork, the cartography. Whether it was loaded after the automatic page one , or before. I was like, “Oh! These are nice! These are really nice,” because Kaelyn and I have talked about maps before for books. Colin and I have talked about maps before for books. I did my map for my books and that was a whole heck of a project and I wish I had somebody else to do the work for me because it’s not easy.   K: I think we think, like, “Oh, whatever. You just sit down and you draw some borders, some boundaries, some oceans. Throw some mountains in there, I guess, and you’re done. It’s not that. It’s not easy at all. It’s certainly not that easy. There’s a lot of considerations that go into building a world and then putting it on a piece of paper. You can be an excellent artist, are you that good a cartographer, though?   R: Cartographer’s a big word and it’s a big responsibility.   K: So, anyway, we had an absolutely fantastic time talking to Antoine. Hopefully we’ll have him back at another date because oh my god does that guy do a lot of stuff.   R: Yep, yep.   K: So, anyway, take a listen and we hope you enjoy.   [intro music plays]   R: I just wanted to double check the pronunciation. A: Bandele. Kind of like ándale, with a B.   R: Okay.   A: It’s actually a mistranslation. [laughs] It really should be Bamidele, but I guess somewhere, the naming coming over to America, it got—   R: A syllable fell off?   A: Yeah. So now it’s Bandele.    K: So, Antoine, do you wanna take a moment and introduce yourself to our listeners?   A: Yeah, so my name’s Antoine. I do many-a-things but the thing that’s most relevant to today is that I am a publisher and writer and I do fantasy works, particularly fantasy works that are inspired by pre-colonial African myth and folklore, anything of that nature.   K: And we brought you on today, specifically to talk about a certain special kind of artwork that pops up in especially fantasy books sometimes.   A: Yeah,especially fantasy.   K: Yeah! Maps and cartography. Rekka and I wanted to do a series on artwork in books. We’ve been threatening to do an episode about cover art for a long time. And as we were working through this, we were kind of like, “You know, there’s so much art that goes into a book that you don’t think about or that we take for granted and I think one of those, definitely, are the maps that you find in the books. Because they add so much to the stories and they give the reader a great sense of the world that they’re about to explore and just helps set the stage.   I think that they’re—well, everything’s relative in terms of difficulty, but designing a map is very different than designing cover art.    R: Yeah.   A: I would suspect. I don’t even know. I just hire people to do it, so I dunno.   R: Well that’s one of the smart things, right? Is making sure that you stick to the areas that your expertise is heavier in, and don’t try to be Master of Everything. So when we were talking about this Artwork August, I had just finished reading your book By Sea and Sky. So, I just served up these maps into my face and enjoyed them and then we started talking about doing artwork.   I instantly said, “Oh! You know what great maps I’ve seen? And they’re not like in an old, 60-year-old Lord of the Rings edition. Let’s talk about some current stuff.”   A: Mhm.   R: These are really great maps and I didn’t even know at the time, and it blew me away, but you found these on Fiverr?   A: Yes, so a woman named Maria Gondolfo, who actually is from Italy, which is awesome about working remote or online, is that you can work with people all across the world. Like, my first book, I think my editor was from Texas and then one of my beta readers was from the East Coast. I think York was one of them. And my cover artist is from Bangkok and then I have my cartographer, she’s from Italy. So it’s a lot of people all over the world who get to work with me.   She is renflowergrapx on Fiverr. And I got really lucky because I think she was maybe the first person I found on Fiverr.   K: Oh, wow. Okay.   A: Just by searching up “fantasy maps.” I think my brother had directed me there because he usually goes there for Dungeons and Dragons maps, and that’s what she usually does. She does Dungeons and Dragons campaign maps for people.   K: Very cool. Yeah.   A: And I was like, “Oh! Do you also do it for books? Or have you done it?” She’s like, “Yeah, I’ve done a few books before. Just give me what—” Oh! I should show you guys this! I actually have drawings. So, I usually would do a sketch-up of the map itself and then she goes and does her amazing work. I should find that.   K: Getting a map together—as you’re grabbing these sketching that you did—it’s no small thing. It’s a commitment. It’s a very difficult—I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is, even as the writer, to sit down and plan out the map in your head. What made you decide, “Yes, this is the book that I wanna take this on.”       A: So the reason I need maps is that, yes, it’s a fantasy fable. It’s actually expected from the fantasy reader to have a map and it helps, as you were saying before, contextualize the world. Especially when people start talking about locations in the world. It’s like, “What? What are you referring to? I don’t know this world.” But you can refer to the map and be like, “Oh! He’s talking about that little corner in the north!”    So the way I do my maps, is I really just take from real world landscapes and basically just do copy-pasting. So I’ll take a sheet of clean paper and then I’ll have a section, like, I think some of the islands are based on some SOutheast Asian islands. Not the big ones you would recognize, but the little ones that are off to the size. And then I just blow them up to be bigger. I’m like, alright cool, and then I do that. And the benefit of that is that you’re getting a natural land formation versus it just being completely out of your mind, in which case sometimes that can come out with mistakes and that sort of a thing. So I just do that, mostly as a way to help the reader figure out what this world is and what it’s about.   K: And so you’re starting—rather than starting from scratch, you’re drawing inspiration from existing geography—   A: Correct.   K: But this is a fantasy world, things are gonna exist there that don’t quite exist in South Asian islands.    A: Right, exactly. Well, ‘cause I don’t have a full world map right now because I’m building out the world section by section and then connecting it later.   K: I was gonna ask, did you sit down and figure this out all at once or are you kind of adding a new land as you need to?   A: Yeah, I add new land until the world map is filled out. So, for looking at the Esowon Esterlands map. If you turn it clockwise, you might notice that landscape, possibly. It’s a little scrunched up, but if you look at it, it is basically Panama.   R: Okay. Yeah.   K: Yep, yep.   A: The space between South America and Central America.   K: Alright, yes, I can see it.   A: But flipped the other way so it looks a little more reminiscent of Northeast Africa and Arabia.   R: Yeah.   A: And then, also, the middle islands are based on the Carribean, so it’s inserting the West Indies in the Red Sea, basically. But, again, making a fantasy of it because that stuff doesn’t necessarily exist. Even that, you know, the indication of Octa, that’s supposed to be Egypt and the Delta Nile, that’s supposed to look like the Nile, but it’s obviously not.    Victoria Falls is kind of in that bottom section. So it’s very much inspired, and this one in particular I did that because I, specifically was going the Song of Ice and Fire route—And that’s actually what George R. R. Martin did. Westeros is basically just the UK turned upside down.   K: Yep, and stacked on top of each other a little bit.   A: Exactly, and there are some differences to meet the standards of Westeros, but that’s essentially the basis for what I did for this, you know, making it somewhat familiar but then still being its own thing in a fantasy realm.   K: Yeah, and for reference, if you’re wondering what we’re talking about, we’re on Antoine’s website where he has all of the maps from the books displayed on there. And a link to find the cartographer who did them. They’re very impressive.   R: And that link to this page will be in the show notes. We should’ve said that at the top so that people could bring him up while they listen, if they’re not driving. Because who commutes anymore?   [A and K laugh]   A: Right.   R: Yeah. So you went to Fiverr. Was that your first stop looking for a cartographer?   A: Yeah, that was definitely my first. I think I was first flirting with the idea of doing it myself and then I was like, “Nah, I’m not gonna do it myself.” Because I realized very quickly, as you were saying, it’s actually more complex than you would actually expect.   R: Oh yeah.   A: And there’s actually a lot of rules to cartography that people don’t think of. Like, the way the rivers flow, they have to come off mountains. Stuff like that. The way port cities usually are. There’s a lot of little nuances that people don’t really recognize. I definitely just went to Fiverr and I just got really lucky. I honestly, my first search—I might’ve looked at a few people, but then Renflower was a standout for me, for sure. She had an option for standard black and white and she had a full color and and I saw her examples and I was like, “I don’t think I have to look anymore! Lemme just, like, reach out to her and see if she’ll do it.”   K: This is it!   [11:44]    R: Nailed it. A: And then what’s really awesome, and she surprised me on this because By Sea and Sky, it features airships. And I was looking and I was like, “Aww, I’m probably gonna have to find a new person, because she only does maps,” right? But that’s my thinking. I was like, “Well, hey, I need like an airship. I don’t know if you’ve ever done that before…” and she’s like, “Yeah! I love doing them!” She says it gets kind of old to just do her maps, you know, week in and week out. And she was really excited. She, actually I think uses it as an example or whatever now.    K: Oh, awesome.   A: I needed that in particular because I was writing the third act of By Sea and Sky which takes place, there’s like a battle sequence at the end. I was like, “Oh, man. I need to know, solidly, what the landscape of the—” Basically I had to know which level everybody’s on, how are they getting trapped—   R: What room’s above them and under them, yeah.   A: Yeah! Exactly! So I got her to do that and, again, I got references, something like that. I was like, “Is this kinda like the—” I describe it as looking like a ship, but it flies and has like the sails on the sides so it can fly and that kinda stuff. And the different rooms and where the captain’s quarters is and the mess hall and all that kinda stuff. So that was a lot of fun for her and for me.   R: So this sort of comes from her experience doing D&D maps, I assume—   A: Right, exactly.   R: This was kind of laid out where, you actually could, if you printed it out big enough you could do a campaign through the ship, reenacting the battle from the third act.   A: You definitely could.   R: Yeah. Yeah, and it’s great. There’s a kind of isometric view of the ship, where you get the wow factor of what the ship looks like with the lateral sails and the more traditional sails, and then you get the deck structure. And then you get the breakdown, floor by floor, almost like architectural drawings.   A: Right. And that’s because she wanted to feel like it was in the world, so some of the names you see on the bottom right are actually characters in the world, the engineers who built out—    K: Ohh!   R: Oh, yes!   A: Very, very small in the bottom right corner—   K: Very cool!   R: I didn’t even try reading it because it was so small.   A: Janaan Malouf, Ismad al-Kindi, who some of them actually show up in the book, like Ismad al-Kindi is the engineer that we know in the story itself. Janaan is someone we meet in book two. But these are actual, in the year of The Viper, the year of 3582. So she made it feel like it was in-universe, except for the typeface with the navigation and whatever that looks very much like it’s us typing that in, versus it being written.   But, otherwise, it’s supposed to be like an in-universe kind of blueprint.    R: And there’s something to be said for legibility, too, if you want someone to read that.   A: Exactly. You gotta be able to read it, though.   R: I mean, we all assume it’s translated into English and maybe it’s also translated into a serif font—   A: Exactly!!   R: So. Yeah.   A: Right.   K: So, you got on Fiverr, you found Maria. What is this first conversation like, while you’re trying to explain and describe this.   A: Oh my god. Well, she—so most Fiverr professionals do this, where they’ll ask you to provide an explanation, for what you want, so there’ll be boxes of, “Do you have fantasy examples that you want your maps to look like?” Because she does several different kinds of styles. “Please tell me a little bit about your story, what is it about? What’s the landscape like? What’s some of the history behind the landscape.” So you explain all this, you fill out the boxes and then you have a conversation.    Well, first, she has to accept it. So when you send it off, you’d be like, “Okay, well, is it cool? Would you wanna work with me?” She says yes or no. Yes. Then you continue forward and then she takes, however long, I’m not sure how long her thing is on her website right now, but I think when I did it, it was like five to ten days, or something like that? I’m not sure. She’s like really popular now. I think she even has a Level 2 badge or something like that.   K: OH, great!   A: Or something to that. I can’t remember, but… So we do that and we talk together, and she’ll send me a rough and I’ll maybe have adjustments. We’ll go back and forth until we both are happy with our final product, and it just goes on like that.   K: Yeah, and actually, as a call back to the previous episode we did with Colin Coyle, who does most of the art direction for Parvus Press, you guys have to have a contract or an agreement in place. When you say you’re talking to Maria, you have to check all of these boxes, there’s gotta be something set up.  You don’t just, you know, hand someone something and say, “Hey, I want it to vaguely look like this,” and then you send them some money and you get back you—   A, laughing: Yeah, no.   R: And Fiverr’s got that kinda built in, don’t they?   K: Yeah.   A: Yes, they do. Fiverr, Upwork, any of those other freelancer websites, that’s kinda the benefit of it because you don’t have to do all the legal stuff because it’s already all done in the background for you. That’s the reason why it costs an extra fee to use those platforms because they’re basically managing all of that paperwork, kind of a thing.   R: Mhm.   K: But worth it, if that’s something you don’t want to worry about.   A: Right.   K: Because we—there’s a lot of really talented, awesome artists on Fiverr, obviously, but they’re—you don’t always know you’re running into and what their work ethic’s gonna be like. Sometimes more so than the work that they’re producing. So if you’re looking to have something like this done, and you’re considering, “Do I go out in the world and find someone, or do I go to somewhere like Fiverr?” There is that, at least to consider as the built-in protection that comes with Fiverr. They have all these policies in place already, so you don’t have to think or worry about that.   R: And there’s some motivation for the artists to maintain their reputation on the side, too.   K: Absolutely.   A: Right, exactly.   R: So these are color maps. What made you choose color? I mean, they’re very colorful, too. So, obviously, digital Kindles and eReaders and on your website, they look fantastic. But, traditionally in books, you’d have like a black and white interior print—   A: Just black and white, yeah.   R: Yeah, exactly. On the ink-readers you won’t see color. So was it a price difference and you just decided you wanted to see that color? Or, what was the decision as you’re art directing her? Even though she’s applying her know-how and all her experience creating these things, but at a certain point certain aesthetics are up to you. So, what were the decisions you made as you went through this?   A: So, that was just her having that option available. Because I was just expecting to go into it black and white, like it was. I mean, that’s just how it is. But then she had like a premium version that wasn’t that much more expensive and I saw her examples and I was like, “Oh, yeah! If color’s an option then let’s do color! Why not?”   R: Mhm.   A: But, of course, you can only see it if you’re looking at it on the Kindle app or if you’re looking at it on an eReader that has full color available to it. If you’re looking on a Paperwhite or anything like that, or on a printed page, you’re not gonna have that. But that’s all a thing, too, that she factors in is that she makes sure that the greyscale, once you put it in greyscale, does it still function? So when we do our passes between each other, she actually factors that in. Every time she sends me a color, it also shows up in black and white as well, to make sure that it functions in both formats.   R: Oh, excellent.   K: Very nice, yeah. More like lineart, kind of.   A: Yeah, ‘cause a lot of times amateur cartographers or amateur artists don’t consider that you can’t just flip a switch, necessarily—   R: Yup.   A: It’s a separate skillset to have black and white versus color.   R: That’s like all the Mad Max and Logan and other movies. They’re starting to release editions that are in black and white. And it’s not just that they desaturate the film, they actually go through and adjust it, just like they were producing a whole new movie, to really play with the tone and the volume and the color and stuff like that. It does take a lot of work to remove all that color and still have something that’s lovely to look at.     [19:26]   K: This is a far more complicated project that requires a different skillset than just: Well, I’m going to draw some mountains on a nebulous looking piece of land. Right? And, you mentioned before, there are rules. You can’t just have a river that just starts in the middle of a continent and also ends in the middle of a continent.   A: Right.   K: It’s gotta be, you know, flowing from somewhere. Presumably, even in your fantasy world, some laws of physics and geography do still apply.   A: Yep.   K: But Maria obviously has a lot of experience dealing with this and designing things. Was there anything that, you know, you said, “Okay, I want it to look like this,” and she went, “Oh no, that’s not how this works. It’s gotta look like this instead,”?   A, chuckles: Um, I don’t know if we ever had those conversations because I think we both came in, both knowing what had to go into it. I’m sure she—because she actually liked me as a client, I guess, because I communicate well or whatever. Because I guess who she usually deals with are people who don’t know that kind of thing? And for me to come in and already have all that set up—Like I said, I do my sketches before she does anything. I’m sure that’s a benefit to her. It’s just easier.   R: Yeah, I can tell you, as a graphic designer, most of the clients you get are, “Oh, I’ll know it’s right when I see it!” And then seventy iterations later, they still don’t like anything.   A, sympathetically: Yeah…   R: And you just want to walk away from the situation. But, yeah, if you know what you want to begin with and you have sketches, I mean that must be so much easier for her. And then she can apply what she knows, to take those sketches. So, your sketches were land shapes and continents, islands, and that sort of thing? Coastlines that you already had an idea of? Or was it mostly an orientation of: these cities are kind of grouped over here and they’re on a continent and this one’s on an island, and this one’s on a straight.   What level of understanding the actual geography of your world did you bring to begin with? Or was it mostly like, “I need a map. I only know that these two things are separated by water and are seventy miles apart.”   A: I was very specific on the land masses and how they looked. The main thing I didn’t really know was the in-between stuff like the mountain placement and forest placement and stuff like that. I knew I would say, like, I would have a drawing of this is greenish, this should be forest-y, this should be desert-y, but then she would go in with the details. So I was very, very—my notes were very specific about shapes and also what was forest, what was desert, and even the spacing.    Like, the spacing, in particular, was important for By Sea and Sky because the main island, Kidogom and Al Anim were a specific, plot-wise, not so much in book one, but in book three, there was a specific plot on the distance between the two, because there’s some travelling that goes on. So I was very, very specific about it. I think, at some point, she had it really close and I was like, “Oh no! They’re not that close together.” And that’s the reason, actually, we made the second version of it, the one that’s called Al Anim and Kidogo map, which shows a little bit better the distance between the two, versus the wider shot. So you can understand when that particular plot happens how much time and distance happens between those two.   R: I’m observing that you know things about book three that have to have bearing—   K: That’s exactly what I was gonna say! How do you deal with this with potential spoilers, because what you’re putting on a map are things that are significant to the story. Did you have any concerns with that, where you’re like, “I’ve gotta put this on here because it exists in the world, but I am then—”   A: Ohh, I see what you’re saying!   K: Yeah.   A: So, yes. Specifically, there are—The map that I have on the website now, those locations are only locations that are spoken in that particular book.    K: Gotcha.   A: So, in oncoming books, like in the second book I mention a newer location, the map gets updated with that little point of interest. So the particular thing with the whole distance between Kidogo and Al Anim, not really a spoiler so much. It just gives context for when that plot point comes up because it’s really just about how long it takes to get back to Kidogo because there’s a plotline of, “Hey, we gotta get back there! And how long is it gonna take for them to catch up to us?” kinda thing, that’s why that was very specific, those two locations in particular.   R: Yeah, and those two are mentioned throughout the book. It’s not like a—   A: Correct, correct. There are places on the map that should be mentioned, but aren’t specifically for that reason that you guys mentioned about it being spoilery. So each map is different.   K: So you just go the method where, “I’m leaving this stuff off and when I need you to know about it, I’ll let you know about it.”   A: Yes. And that’s exactly the same way I write, too. I don’t present every piece of worldbuilding. I was just talking to another author because I work with a lot of authors within the same space of this world that I’m building out, and they’re like, “Whoa! You know so much about this, this, and that!” And I’m like, “Yeah, there’s just no point of putting it in that story because it wasn’t relevant to the story.” But there’s all these pieces of worldbuilding.   I think George R. R. Martin said your worldbuilding should just be like a tip of an iceberg and then, you know, the reader should see the impressions of the iceberg underneath, but that’s not part of the story. So you don’t need to see the entire iceberg, you just need to see the little tip of it.   R: I think Kaelyn would appreciate that, as an editor.   K: It’s funny because Rekka and I talk about this all the time, that I’m a planner.    A: Me too.   K: I want to—and this comes from being an editor is that, especially if I’m working with somebody who’s working on a series, I need to know where this ends up. I need to know how it ends, but also geographically where it ends because I need to make sure that there isn’t something coming completely out of left field here. And what I was gonna ask is if you, along the George R. R. Martin lines, like to pepper little people and name places into your book for you to go back and reference and make relevant later—   A: Yep.   K: —I’ve used that trick with authors where it’s like, “Okay, listen, if you’re not sure how you’re getting yourself out of this hole yet, that’s fine. But you gotta lay some groundwork along the way. So if you wanna make it a throwaway line that could or could not mean anything, that’s fine. But you have to do something.” So that it’s not like: oh! It turns out there’s this entire lost continent that nobody knew about and it’s super-secret and special. That’s how you annoy people.   A: Mhm, yeah.   R: You wanna create a Chekov’s Island and you can put it in the map, but not in the book.   K: Yes, yes exactly.   R: So, it was that planning ahead which was more my question for you. You have a series that is in the works.   A: Right.   R: You already have how many of them written?   A: Yeah, there’s a few. Demons...1984… I think at least six right now, across the entire series.   K: Well, yeah, because you have some prequels and things like that.   A: Yeah! There’s prequels, there’s novellas, there’s a graphic novel as well. There’s a lot of—audiobooks as well. But yeah.   R: And they all share this map.   A: And they all share… portions of the map. Like, I said before. So the portion that we’re looking at now is the northeast version of it, the other one that I have which is for my first book, The Kishi, which is called the Southern Reaches of the Golah Empire, that’s like the southwest portion of it, and then this one here, Southern Eshiya, that’s like far east. So these are, like, pieces of it and I haven’t puzzled them all together yet because I am building out the world bit by bit.Oh! Perfect! You guys already know about Game of Thrones. So basically what I’m doing right now is I’m writing about Robert’s Rebellion before A Game of Thrones happens. So basically, I”m writing all that stuff leading up to the saga, the big epic books.      R: So, planning ahead this much, is it just because you’re going section by section that you have the confidence to say, “Okay, yes, this is where all the cities are, I don’t need to move them because I’m not gonna run myself into any trouble later.” You could get to book eight and say, “Oh shoot! It would really help if Kidogo was actually a little bit further north because then I could squeeze in another island that isn’t here right now!” Like, do you worry about that or are you just like, “Okay, I can commit to this and I can figure it out later.” Or are you really, really planned out to the point of, you have outlines for enough to pretty much flesh out the entire world. And you know what you need.   A: A bit of both. I actually know how the big saga books end. I know how those began. I know where the locations of all these stories will be. So I know what to keep not spoken about.   R: Mhm.   A: That’s why I have only a few points of interest. Like, I don’t go and like, “I’m gonna go and name every single piece of land here!” That would just put me into a corner if I do that. So that’s why my rule is, whatever I’m talking about in the story is what will be mentioned on the map, and nothing more. Because yeah, if I wanna add something in there, what? Never was mentioned before! It’s not canon, so it’s okay. I can insert that in there. But if you do, do that, if you do over explain it too much then, yeah. You can run yourself into a corner of being like, “Whoops! I kind of established that that place is like this and I can’t, you know, add that in there so.”   R: And I put the picture on my site, people are gonna point at it and say I was wrong!   A: Yeah, exactly.   K: And, conversely, though, this is getting more into the actual creating the maps. As you said, you only, if you’re not talking about it, do you keep a list as you’re going through the book of kind of like, “Okay, I need to like—”   A: Oh, yes! I have a story bible. I have a huge story bible.   K: Okay, so like, “We went here, we went here, we went here. These are the places we need to talk about. Or this is mentioned.”   A: Mhm, yeah. There’s timelines, locations, like terms and language phrases. Yeah, that’s very important, too, for creators out there. Writers, make sure you’re having a story bible. For, especially, epic fantasy.   K: Oh, yeah.   A: You really should have it for anything. Like, even The Office, which is just a sitcom, has  a story bible.    K: Yep.   A: Fantasy, it’s a must. It’s not even like an optional thing. You must have a story bible.    K: Yeah, otherwise you’re gonna run into some bizarre continuity errors. But, there are certainly some famous ones out there. But I have actually read a book, I can’t remember which one it was, where they had a map in there and there were two places just missing off of it. And they weren’t particularly relevant to the story or anything, but they were mentioned and there were characters from there and I’m a hundred percent sure they were meant to be on the map. And they just left them off it. But, yeah, you know if you’ve got a lot of cities and places and stuff, I’m sure it can happen.   [29:52]   A: And the benefit of me being indie published is that I can rectify that very easily. ‘Cause I’m like, “Oh, that’s not on there? Alright, photoshop, put it in there, reupload,” and then that e-file gets updated so that person is like, “Alright cool. Sweet. Never happened. What.”   K: What are you—what are you talking about? That was always like that. You’re imagining things. Stop hallucinating cities that weren’t there.   A: Right.   R: So, I’m noticing that as we run through these maps and you’re talking about them in different ways, and you’re mentioning that they’re different regions of the planet, I am noticing that they—or the worlds, planet is for sci-fi—that these maps are kind of in different styles. Is that intentional, that they would be a regional style for each story?   A: Yes! Yeah, so they’re slightly different depending on which region we’re in. And it’s supposed to kind of be like a—what Maria always wanted to do was make sure that, as much as she could, make it like it was an in-world map and not so much a map made by 21st Century people—   R: A digital file, yeah.   A: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, yeah that’s the reason for the differences. That’s why we have the airship layout looking like it’s like a blueprint and then you have Kidogo and stuff looking, as it does.   R: And creases! Creases in your maps and discolored areas and…   A: Yes, yes! Oh, and she—which is funny because when I first started, I use a program called Vellum which is a formatter, and it didn’t—at first, it didn’t support full-page leaved images, so when I had showed her the book the first time, she’s like, “Oh… I designed it to be full page…”    I was like, “I know, but it doesn’t support it! I had to make it a little tiny thing on one page. And then I showed her, “THEY DO IT NOW! THEY DO FULL PAGE IMAGES!!!!!” So the crease that she does there actually creases with the spine of the book, like it actually exists. Like “OOOH!”   And she’s so happy that it has that now, and I was like, “Yeah, I know you wanted that,” because they only put that in seven months ago or something like that.   R: Yeah, it was not that long ago. When I went in and I found it, I was equally happy.   A: I use it all the time. My title pages look so awesome now!   K: That is, that’s very cool.   R: And I noticed it also, like you said, lay a single image across two pages, if you have your print layout done through them, too. So yeah. Very good update. Vellum is constantly improving. I’m a huge fan.   A: Yeah, they’re awesome.   K: You work on these books with an editor. Do you include the editor in the designing process of these maps at all? Do you get any input or run anything by the editor, or do you just handle all of this yourself?   A: More or less. I mean, it depends on how important that location is to the story. I definitely have an editor—I have one of my editors, she’s more developmental, she’s more about the characters, and then I have one who’s more into the worldbuilding aspect of it? Fiona’s the one I’m mentioning who is like, more the character-based one and then Callan, Callan Brown, is the more worldbuildy.    So, with Callan, I moreso do that kind of stuff with, where I’m like, hey this location—or, when we get to Al-Anim, because Al-Anim’s the main thing of book two, we were talking about the design of that city, the idea of the spine that goes through the entire city where everybody congregates and stuff like that. Or the idea, like I came up with a tavern, I’m like, “Okay, this tavern, what’s the history of this tavern? Why is it central? Why is it so important for everybody? Like, why is it popular? Why does it do so well?” We have those kinds of conversations, for sure, with an editor.          K: Gotcha. ‘Cause we spend a lot of time talking about how, especially in self- and indie publishing, there’s this drive to just want to do everything yourself. I can take this, I can handle this, I don’t want people coming in and messing up my thing, but an outside voice, an outside set of eyes, is certainly, I think, helpful, even when it is something as microcosmic as building a map.   A: I think it’s a complete necessity, actually. I don’t think it should ever be a one-mind person. Like, it’s very similar to filmmaking, where it’s a really collaborative effort when you really look at what goes into a book. Like, there’s not too many people out there who are gonna be doing everything on their book. From audiobook production or your cover design or your cartographers or your editors. Like, it’s definitely a collaborative thing.    And I’m very huge about that. Like, I use the heck out of beta readers. I really, really—several iterations I’ll have a draft go, have the beta readers say something, send the other one out, have the beta readers say something. Alright, now my editor’s going through it, now my critique partner’s going through it. I’m very, very into the feedback and that feedback loop of making sure that everything makes sense and things track. I think that’s super important.    K: Yeah, I completely agree. So, along those lines, we always ask when we have guests on, advice,s suggestions, red flags, things you would pass along to somebody who’s thinking, “Hey, you know, I’m gonna include a map in my book.” What would you tell them? To either watch out for or to make sure you do.   A: I would send them to Brandon Sanderson’s, he has a bunch of YouTube videos. It’s his classes, literally his classes for free. One of those episodes that he has on YouTube is about him talking about maps. Literally, the whole session of that class was about maps. And he really, really goes into—Also him, and there’s also other people on YouTube who talk about it. D&D people, I would say look up D&D channels.   K: Okay.   A: They also have really good insights about map design. Because yeah, it’s not as simple as putting a mountain, and like you were saying, having a river in the middle of a continent, sort of situation. Even port cities. Port cities are done incorrectly because they aren’t typically right on the coast, they’re usually a little bit more inland, whether it’s a bay or on a river, deeper in. Whatever it might be. So, I would say, I usually suggest Brandon Sanderson’s works, his lectures that are free on YouTube.    You don’t have to take a college course about geography or geology or anything like that, but it does help to have some knowledge about what tectonic plates are, how they work, how they form continents, why continents look the way they do. Why those mountain ranges look different from a different kind of mountain range. A little bit, just a little bit, if you’re gonna be making maps, to know that.    K: Yeah, I would even take it a step further and say, you know, think about the terrain that you’re putting in here and how it fits into your story. Will this kill the characters, based on the length of time it’s supposed to take them to cross it?   A: Right.   K: I’ve seen a lot of traditionally published books where you look at the maps and you’re like, “That’s not how long it should have taken them to get from that place to the other, compared to these two cities which are much closer together and somehow took a longer amount of time.” But I’m sure that’s a factor you have to consider as well. If I say these two cities are this far apart and it took these two characters six days to get between them, and these two are twice as far apart, in theory it should take at least twelve.   R: And one’s in an airship and another one’s sailing on the water.   A: That is literally the reason why I was talking about the whole book three thing between the Kidogo and Al-Anim thing because it was very important ‘cause both of those things factor in. It was like, “Okay, how long will the sea ship take to get there? How long will the airship take to get there?” So I had to factor it and I’m like measuring it out. I’m like, “Okay, so, if I’m taking this or something like that, I’m gonna measure out each piece of it. Okay, this little prong is probably gonna be a quarter of a day, so if I do four of these, this distance takes a day— Yeah, I totally had to do all of that and adjust things based on plot reasons.   K: Plot reasons. Yes. No, we could do an entire episode on geography versus plot. And how they work for and against each other.   A: Uh-huh.   K: The airship, you know, what if it’s crossing mountains that frequently have storms over it. What if the sea ship is going through a channel that’s known to be very rocky, so you really have to slow down and navigate through there.   A: And sometimes you add that, specifically, because you’re like, “I need them to slow down! Lemme put a typhoon here!”   R, laughing: Excellent.   K: These people are gonna get there two days before they left the last…   A: Yup, yup, yup.   R: I did see that there’s a sea serpent on the map. Occasionally it might just pop up and grab the airship or something, right?   K: Here there be monsters.   R: You do so much else.   K: Like, a lot.   R: A lot, a lot. What do you want our listeners to know about you before we let you go and, definitely include where they can find you. Talk about your publishing your house, talk about your various business—   A: Ventures and endeavours. Yeah.   R: You just keep switching hats! And go, “Today, I am an audio producer. Tomorrow, I’m editing video.” I’ll let you do it.   A: You can find everything about me, if you just wanna see every single thing that I’m doing, on my website. That is antoinebandele.com [spells it], so I do a bunch of stuff. So I do, primarily right now, the main income generator for me is my YouTube channel. I am a YouTuber. Right now, I’m focused mostly on Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra because those have come back to Netflix and my channel is like, “Hey! Lots of people are watching those videos! You should make more of those videos!” And I’m like, “Oh my god, yes I will!” And so I… that’s the main focus right now.   K: Fine, I’ll talk about Avatar: The Last Airbender more.   A: Oh, fine. Jeez, Louise! So I’ve been doing that, as of late. But I do other things, too. I’ve covered Harry Potter, Star Wars, Game of Thrones, as we’ve been talking about. Samurai Champloo, some anime, stuff like that.   R: Nice.   A: So I have my YouTube, and that’s my main thing. I also work freelance for other YouTube channels. I used to work for a company called JustKidding films, where they do a news channel, they have a party channel for board games. I also work for a blog channel, their name is Tip and Kace. Basically it’s just a family blog, just their day-to-day and stuff like that. So I have those services, and I also do services for indie authors who are trying to produce audiobooks.   So I have a bunch of—I live in L.A., I think as I mentioned already in the podcast, so I have a lot of friends who are actors, or up and coming actors, who would love to have work. I was doing audio just for myself, right? Just for my own books, because I’m already an editor I’m like, “I’ll just do it myself.” And then one of my friends, after we had collaborated on the prequel to By Sea and Sky, Stoneskin, and when we did that prequel and I did the audiobook, he’s like, “Dude, this is like really good. You should be doing this as a service.”   I was like, “I don’t know about that, that sounds like a lot of work.” He’s like, “It’s not! You obviously know how to do it.” And I was like, “Fine,” and I did it and I have a bunch of clients now who work with me on their audiobooks, whether it’s urban fantasy or sci-fi and all these other genres—romance, I’ve never done romance before. That was interesting to experience.   [40:13]   K: Oh! How was that?   A: It’s definitely a different genre. It’s definitely different from what I’m used to.   R: In audiobooks, no one can see you blush.   [K laughs]   A, laughing: Exactly, exactly! So I started doing that. So I have that going on as well. But then, you know, my main thing, the thing I’m wanting to be my main thing, is my own publishing. Of my books and other works. So, of course, I write these Esowon books, as we’ve been talking about. That’s the sky pirate stuff, the African fantasy inspired stuff, but I’ve also produced a children’s book for another friend of mine, who had a children’s book that he published, I think, in 2012, and he’s like, “Hey, I’ve seen that you have really good quality of your books. Could you re-do my old book?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure! Why not?” And then he actually profited within the first two months, before I even profited on my own works.    K: Oh, wow. Great.   A: I was like, “Oh my god! Children’s books is where it’s at, apparently!” So  I do that, as well. I’ve published… five authors, at this point? Besides myself. Underneath my imprint of Bandele Books. So, yeah, I think that’s everything that I do. My YouTube channel, my editing, publishing, audiobook production, writing. Think that’s everything.   K: Jeez, that is an incredibly… full and talented.   R: Full plate.   K: Full plate, and incredible brand of talents. That’s really, really awesome. Thank you so, so much for taking the time to talk with us about this. This is, you know, like we said, a really cool thing in books that I think are taken for granted by both, well, especially readers, but even sometimes by authors, with how much work and effort and time goes into this.   A: Mhm.   R: Excellent! Well make sure you go and follow Antoine, check out his work on his website. Check out the books, they’re really great! I happen to be biased toward airships. But everyone should be.   K: A little bit.   R: And I’m looking forward to reading the next one and seeing what you add to these maps! Now I’ve got this little piece of candy that I can follow. What’s new? What’s new on the map? I’m gonna be looking at them real closely. Thank you so much, Antoine, and maybe we’ll have to have you back someday to talk about audio production.   A: For sure, yeah! That’d be fun. R: Awesome, thank you so much.   [outro swish]   R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes, or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram, or wmbcast.com. If you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/wmbcast.    If you can’t provide financial support, we totally understand, and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find out podcast, too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter.    Thank you so much for listening, and we will talk to you soon!   [outro music plays]   The team Antoine gathered to work on his Esowon books:Cartography - RenFlowerGrapx (Maria Gondolfo): https://www.fiverr.com/renflowergrapxFiona McLaren - DevelopmentalCallan Brown - ContinuityJosiah Davis - Line/CopyeditSutthiwat Dekachamphu - Cover ArtSarayu Ruangvesh - Character ArtOther resources:Brandon Sanderson Creative Writing Lessons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6HOdHEeosc&list=PLSH_xM-KC3Zv-79sVZTTj-YA6IAqh8qeQ

When you are going through an awakening, sometimes it can feel like everything is going off the rails! That's how it was with me, and I was lucky enough to come across an amazing spiritual life coach, Christian Wiese. Ever since Christian helped me along the way, we have been in communication. Take a listen to find out how you may be able to practically apply spiritual wisdom, even if you are in the midst of a very high-level financial group! Connect with Christian on Facebook Also, should you be interested in his books check them out here: https://christianmwiese.com/ Brandon Handley 0:00 Two, one. Hey there spiritual dope. Brandon Handley here today. And as we continue to explore how we can apply spirituality in our everyday lives, businesses, and whatever it is we want to do. I have with me today, author and spiritual coach, my good friend, Christian M. Weiss, and he is a, he's an author, spiritual coach. But he didn't he wasn't always in the space. In 2008, he was working in the professional finance field, with a PhD in finance and as a freshly minted dad. And working in this market. He'd been introduced to a wonderful world of magic, healing and love. And he finally left the financial industry and decided to work today as an author, educator, a spiritual life coach, and he's on a mission to share the gospel of the capitalized way and to help other spiritual Travelers awaken to their path. Christian, thank you so much for joining us today. Christian Wiese 1:05 Thank you for having me. Being here. Brandon Handley 1:08 Yes, yeah, well, so first, you know, here's people people may not have followed me since the beginning and that's okay. So if you're just tuning into any of my podcasts for the first time, Christian I first met years ago now, when I was doing a podcast called fatherhood for the rest of us and I had reached out to fathers who had experience and kind of a spiritual awakening and Christian is the only one who raised his hand. He has lived to tell the tale so before and thank you for that. And we've had I think, a great friendship since then we actually had to meet in person last year. That was a very What do they call that? You know, synchronous, synchronous synchronicity Christian Wiese 1:52 secret? Thanks, Jerry. Yeah, for sure. Brandon Handley 1:54 Yeah, yeah, we that was just so random how that happened. And to me that just showed the universe opening up, right? Unknown Speaker 2:02 That's right. Um, Brandon Handley 2:04 what I like to start this off with Christian as a little bit of how you and I are conduits for creative energy, right? That's right. And you and I are talking to share a message with somebody who's listening to the podcast today. What What do you think that that person needs to hear today? Christian Wiese 2:26 Well, I think the main message is life is fun. There's so much creativity in life. And we spent so much time thinking about it and thinking what we want and what we should get, and we sometimes overlook what we have and what we're getting every day and excitement and I think so again, just a little bit of background. I kind of have always been interested in spirituality. But I was in the middle of my career, the two boys had just been born. Suddenly there was that moment, which you also experienced, where suddenly you said, Wow, what's happening here in this incredible app to tell other people about it. And then I literally spent seven years doing both very similar what you're doing right now, in the day, kind of hanging out with some very smart people in the financial industry and kind of testing my spiritual theories. And then that night writing about it and writing books, and we're talking today about the second book, which I think is is really written for people like you and your, your viewers, because it makes a case that spirituality is not some sort of philosophy that we practice on Sunday. Spirituality is something that we do everyday and also at work. And for seven years. I literally tested my theories and they work, we can really be incredibly creative, connected. We can have a lot of fun doing kind of spirituality and living. Brandon Handley 4:05 Now 100% I love it. I enjoyed the book. And, you know, right when I read the review, I'd already started reading the book. But when I read the review on the back here of the endorsement by Carl Bozeman, and this book is intended to kind of pick up before you go to sleep and just have a quick read like small short stories, right? And, you know, here's the book in my hand, thanks for shooting it over. Appreciate you sending. So the way of the Meister and it gives you some time to pause and reflect and also see how somebody such as yourself who had a PhD in it was it was at finance that she had a PhD in economics, economics. Oh my god, right. I mean, that's the that's the last place. Most people are going to be looking for a virtual coach. Right, or, or spiritual birthing at that, right? That's Christian Wiese 4:55 right. And that often happens and I think it's really important to stress it. We always say, if you are spiritual, be on the right or be on the left, whatever your favorite direction is. But often in life, instead of being on the right, we're actually on the left. And it's extreme contrast between the two that then gets you that, that breaks through. And that's, I think, by work in the conflicts at work in the context of family and all that. It's sometimes an opportunity to opportunity to stop and say, Hey, what's going on here? What can I learn from this conflict? And the way I would put economics, economics is a science of scarcity. scarcity, the main assumption is you don't have but you want the only one right Right, right. Increase your utility and your income as your poor. Yes, the main message of spirituality is abundance. We live in an abundant world. We deserve to live in a world and that I think we need spiritual life coaches like you to remind us of that premise and we should work towards it Brandon Handley 6:10 was like, it's like you said, Christian when you when you stop to look at what you have versus what's missing. That's right, right is doo doo doo. I feel like there's a space for an economic approach that says, hey, we actually have quite a bit Do you think I mean, I mean so look, let's not laugh too hard at this because we had, you know the Science of Happiness to psychology. You know, so, which was laughed out at the beginning, right? I'm reminded of I've listened to this guy, Robin. Oh, gosh, his last name Sharma. Right. And one of his lines is they laughed at all the great ones at first, right. So is there do you feel like is that would could we apply economy you know economics to an abundant sides. Cuz like you said, we've been focused so much on the scarcity economy. Is there an abundance economy? Christian Wiese 7:08 Absolutely. Economics just needs a rebranding, which is Unknown Speaker 7:13 exactly right. Christian Wiese 7:14 I mean, we should call it the science of abundance. And there's a joke that I was told whether, whether it's supposedly true at all, no. But somebody taught at Harvard, and gave the idea of to the utility function and the income line and that it keeps growing and expanding to the right. And that is kind of our mission in life. And there was one guy from the Middle East, supposedly a crown prince. And he said, I'm what happens to the picture, if you don't have any income constraints. And of course, everybody laughed. You know, he was a prince, he had limitless resources, but it's actually a very good point is in economics, that certain bliss point where you're having more income is not the issue at all. It's about having more meaning. And I do think, to a large extent, the spiritual journey is just about awakening to what you truly want. You know, we initially think it's so much about wealth and status and reputation. And then we realized, no, no, it's about love. It's about meaning. It's about the ability to create an Express. And when you go down that path, it's very easy to be very fulfilled and happy, abundant life. Brandon Handley 8:30 It is, is once you learn about it. Christian Wiese 8:37 That's right. Brandon Handley 8:38 Right. So, you know, it's really interesting. My wife just quit her job after being there for 23 years. And she's terrified because she was taught to go get a job and work and stay there for for your entire life. And that was the idea. And since she married me that was her own fault. The You know what? learning this stuff that like, wow, we, you know, you always hear about you know, don't put your don't put your ladder up against the wrong wall. That's right, right you know, we we worked for money, right and income versus working for or towards meaning or towards a beautiful life right? You know, we want we want the things we want the experiences we want I love this bliss point that you bring up. But it's once you've learned that prod and nine then you have to learn how to apply it, which is what you know, I think I've done taking the concept and applied it in life and found it to be true. You know, I think of one of your stories in the book. And actually kind of I was actually telling the story last night at dinner about how you would come up with theories that seemed like they would be sure shots let's talk a little bit about like, you know, working in the economy and you're working for I'm guessing people that had a lot of money and they trusted you, with your, you know, with your doctorate in this field to explore and give sounds strategies, right. So tell us a little bit about, like, what that looked like and what some of the outcomes were. Christian Wiese 10:17 Um, so when I started out I was actually very similar to your vise Korea. I was there for I think, 22 years. I'm originally from Germany, I arrived in 1990. I went to Brown University, got my PhD there. And then literally, just after five years, moved one hour north to Boston from Providence to Boston and started out there. And I started out as an economist, you know, I had to learn, you know what finance is really all about. But, you know, after a while, I got the hang of it, and you can realize that finance to a large extent, yes, it's about knowing what will happen tomorrow. Extensive thoughts about psychology, human psychology, and I love that stuff. You know the the being in the pressure point and people say no, you have it all wrong. Now's the time to be actually that this year was perfect. Everybody said run for the hills run for the hills. And the moment they did that was exactly the moment that the Gnostics started taking off, right? It's all it's all psychology and you have to get a feel for it. So what in the end brought the, the the spark when you kind of awoke to something different? I can't tell. But what I can tell is that I had a very interesting psychological journey they had that place because part of the process of you know, doing this kind of spirituality for a few years is to realize that we kind of live in our head. You know, there are certain stories that we want to be nice to each other. We want to be loved. You're going to get, and there's a lot of heads, the art sometimes says something very different. And what I enjoyed in the pressure cooker environment is to kind of test and also learn. And I kind of went into two directions. And I think they're very powerful. And I think you as a coach really can breakfast that there was one this spiritual dimension where I learned cooperation and trust is so powerful if you work with a group of people and you guys trust each other. magic happens, but also learned and there was a second aspect something about myself, I had not understood how competitive I really was. And you know, we spreadsheet people will tell us Oh, we are so nice and so relaxed. But when tell people to tell you, you're full of it, you suddenly get you know, I'll show you and that's a very human reaction and I love isn't playing with both balls on the one hand showing the magic of connection tivity and caring for each other as I put it, but on the other end, also realizing, you know what, you're telling yourself stories, you're as human as everybody else. And I think that's really the the the potency of a coach to help people with that struggle because we shouldn't live in lala land, we should live in the real world, where not everything is about love. And you know, and being so serene and uncaring. Brandon Handley 13:29 Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, that's it. That's a you know, that's, that's great. And it's an ideal it kind of world and I don't think that it's, I wouldn't say that it's impossible, but the likelihood of seeing it, and then would you really want to live it? That's another question like, yeah, that's, that's another question. And I'm reminded of, you know, at least hearing this kind of first from Alan Watts, right. It's kind of like stew you got to season it just enough. There's got to be enough, you know, kind of flavor and Taste where it's not so bland. So if we have all this, you know, love peace and serenity all the time, it's gonna be real boring. I'm sorry, right? We're not gonna, we're not going to be able to experience we're not going to even notice if we have an upper down, right? I mean, you know, I'm not saying hey, let's invite some drama. But if you don't have any drama, you will go to your head and you will create some it's just human. So you know, I love that you said that because that that is the true premise two is spiritual dope, right. So this is the this program this podcast and courseware whatever gets created out of this is like, it's not all it is a huge percentage of peace, love and light, but there's also some, you know, we've got to go through some. We've got to go through some seasons of our lives to have a fully rounded experience. That's right, right. Christian Wiese 15:02 And something. So the way optimized, I think is perfect for this setup, because I think it speaks to the experience that many people go through. Should I be in this profession? Should I not? Am I really expressing myself creatively as I should? On the other hand, there are financial constraints. Can I really make it right now on my own? Or should I also have, you know, a secure income stream? Those are all issues we have to deal with. But the person Brandon Handley 15:28 just has to pick that apart for right now. Right? Yeah. For everybody who's who's chased the secure income stream and the secure way of life. I think that COVID has been a true disrupter in continuing along that, that path, right. That's right. And, and also, I kind of want to just loop back to when you were, you know, understanding, you know, yes, the cooperative and trust support, right, you know, your groups and creating that and finding that also understanding your competitiveness, but you also have illustrated how you you come up with some theories that will seem bulletproof. Write that on paper, and in theory should be working and they would flop and then you would say, all right, well, here's, here's something that I'm going to throw out there. I don't think much of it. And that's the one that takes off. Right? Play with me really this then right? So I'll play let's play. Let's play like kind of spiritual devil devil's advocate type. Okay. So with the one you had these great expectations, you were kind of attached to an expectation of the one that you thought would work right there was pressure on it to work in the way that you thought that it was supposed to work. And so there was there was like a focus on it. Versus the one that you came up with great. I would say almost ease and you let it go. And you said you know what, fine, let it go. Let's Let's the worst that could happen. Right. And that's the one that you did with ease that it came in and flowed. Yes. Or to see it that way. Christian Wiese 17:08 I think it's a very important point. Actually, that was the direction I wanted to go in my original comment. The main message is, and it's a very tough one, because we have been programmed for four decades in the education system to do exactly the opposite. But the main message of spirituality is, get out of your head. Look at what lie and look at the amazing abundance that life has to offer. And especially when it goes in a direction that you didn't anticipate. That's the time to be excited, because you can actually learn something. Right? And that was really my spiritual experience, experience and breakthrough to realize this is just a voice. It is not us. It's just a voice. Sometimes it has something interesting to say sometimes not. But there's an authority for you. On the voice in the head and that is all to spirituality. Brandon Handley 18:03 Now fair enough. One second Chris, I'm gonna go ask my kids to go move. So the letting go right and getting out of your way. And the aspect of of us trying to apply direction, right? mentally, mentally direction versus Heart, heart feel it feeling it forward, right? That's right, feeling it forward. Well, all right. How do you do that? Christian Wiese 18:36 Well, that's really exciting stuff happens it is we are not independent of our life. The life that we experience the people we bump into, I mean, I am always messenger it's just so apparent. person one context me person to contact me five minutes later, person one and person two are in my life connected. So I see Just even though they have no idea what's going on, I can literally see the strings. Right. So with those modern technologies, we actually can see almost how life operates. Yeah. Brandon Handley 19:11 Yeah, yeah, Christian Wiese 19:12 I think that's a great thing too, that that gets you out of the head. And but again, I would say is always know on which level you work. Because I think you and I do. We do different things to work as a spiritual life coach, you help people with their career choices with their personal choices, right. The next level that I'm interested in this kind of what is that no self experience. There is no self, it's just your part of life. You are there no thoughts, just the no self. I mean, that's what the you know, well, the gurus talk about it's an exciting, almost philosophy or experience, but it doesn't help so much. The guy who has those has just two newborn children and has a little make a living. Right? That's where you come in. Sure. Yeah, you know, it's such a challenge to Brandon Handley 20:09 fall into this space, I guess it's kind of the best way to say it to to, to open once you've opened up to the spiritual self, right? Or the your spirituality, your spiritual being. How do you reconcile that? Right? How do you integrate that? And that's, that's a huge challenge. Christian Wiese 20:28 It's a challenge, but it's also a huge opportunity because Brandon Handley 20:31 so much for sure, listen to your your speaking a new language, you're learning a whole new way of being. So you cannot. So it's kind of like the Buddha and the and the, you know, the Rosebud, right, flower bud, you can't squeeze that right. It's expected to bloom so you got to you've got to nurture it, understand it and follow it. You know, I still remember when people were telling me you got to trust in the process before I had ever experienced the process. Right? So there's trust in the process, which is kind of a faith in this, this possible way of being that you, you simply you can't convey it in Christian Wiese 21:17 words. That's right. You cannot write but what we can convey is how much fun it is. That synchronicity is something that we discussed in our last talk, right? I think you are also an experiencer Can you pronounce it Suresh polities scientists, so it's either the numbers or just the human connections. And the the first experience is so much fun, you understand it to gain it's no longer the, you know, it's it's all about life or death. It's literally again, you making a mistake, and you hear somebody laughing in the background. Ha ha ha you messed this one up. Get ready not that serious, Brandon Handley 22:02 right? Well, you know, I, I poke fun at that too because the word light is in enlightenment. That's right, right. So how can we come at this from a sense of it's heavy, hard, steady work. But it's also meant to kind of lighten the load, right? Christian Wiese 22:24 We are creators. I mean, it just stink up an entrepreneur or the guy who inventing or an Albert Einstein every day when they got up, they were all smiles. I can't wait to see what I create today. But I think that that experience, I think Brandon Handley 22:40 that that's a great, you know, how can somebody applied themselves in that manner? Today right now, regardless of you know, I'm in a nine to five, right? How do I apply that principle of I am a creator of Wherever I am, that might not Christian Wiese 22:56 be the thing that you actually do, which hopefully gets your meaning but There's also the interaction with the people, you know, very much like I described as my messenger experience, you suddenly bump into that person and the person says something which the person never says, exactly that kind of word that resonates with you, because you read it yesterday in a book, and you suddenly start and this is really important. I don't know how. Yeah, this is the process. And it's a lot of fun. And everybody can experience even in a in a workplace that they consider boring. It's literally the lightest streaming in and you can experience it anywhere. But on the other hand, I understand sometimes you are forced in a new direction. And I give myself as an example, I actually had plans to be at a job until today 2020 because I'd always wanted to start with a friend, a meditation center and she just wasn't ready. So For me, that jump came two years ahead of time because there were changes at work and it just didn't work for me anymore. So suddenly a new situation comes and for a couple of years, I was a little bit bored. I have to say, Yes, I was writing books, and I was working with people, but there was always a feeling. You know, I wish I had three more hours of actual creative work to do because only so much spirituality I can do. But guess what, that was a very, very spiritual experience where I really went to the next level, understanding better about my own drive above my own cross patience above my own limits. And that's part of life. You have to if you're really interested in spirituality, and that's where the life coach starts differing from the spiritual coach. The Life Coach job is to make sure that that person is successful in the way that they want. Creating love, whatever it is that they want versus friendship quotes gets a little arrogant says, Whatever happens to you, you will learn a lot. For sure it's you know, I don't know, sometimes you have to build something and then afterwards you can have that arrogant perspective. Do you understand which direction I'm going? Unknown Speaker 25:21 Now go ahead and give me a little more on that. Christian Wiese 25:23 Okay, so I just saw the psychologist, the young cago stuff young, I think put it very well. He says the first half of our life journey, we develop the self. The second half, you actually Brandon Handley 25:40 had I had that I actually had that one. Christian Wiese 25:42 I had that as a quote. And in the second half of the life journey, we start letting go, right. So as the Buddha which puts it over everybody else, but if you die before you die, felt kind of disappears. This integrates, Brandon Handley 25:58 right yeah, not lost. Uh, you know, I never, you know, I've definitely always said, This ease but I'd never done this integrate. Right. Which, you know, right yeah, that explains kind of a lot. Christian Wiese 26:19 Well, I feel bad it was like so let's take the example of when you bump into your colleague when that person says what she never says just out of the blue uses a ratchet she never used the point it's exactly the birth if you just read in that meaningful book at night, right? everything for you stops right just stared her. There are no thoughts. There is just that feeling of I can't wait to see where this is. This is going. So you see this is just an example of the self disintegrate the the knowledge that everybody talks about. You're so excited to be in the moment that innocence us Then, as an identity kind of get integrated into colleagues in the story in what's about to come. That's really the kind of, you know, living now. So it's not that you as a person disappeared, it's just that you literally just become out of it Brandon Handley 27:16 when you become kind of the observer. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, you kind of Christian Wiese 27:21 the actor, the everything. Brandon Handley 27:24 And you're seeing all that at the same time. You're seeing it all at the same time. Is that what you're saying? That's Christian Wiese 27:28 right. Yeah. And many people have thought experiences, it's just they never put in a spiritual meaning to answer just say, Wow, that was Mind blown. Yeah, sure. Sure. Brandon Handley 27:41 I think I think that that's what you and or I or even religion provides is this kind of framework for when it does happen? That's right. Right. So because there's going to be this whole building of the ego to Carl Jung talking about that you're talking about there where you're going Go your whole life and it's gonna seem to fit everybody else's expectations, patterns, societal norms, but then there's going to be this threshold that you cross over, where you disintegrate with that identity of the self and you recognize the connectedness. That's right to everything. That's right. And if you don't know, this is where I think this is where I'm gonna play big is there's a bunch of over 33 million in the United States, right? last census not this last one. They don't claim any religion, right? So they don't have a framework for when this happens to them. That's right. So it's like, hey, it's okay. That's right. let's let's let's a let's figure out kind of, what's your what's your what's your background? And let's, let's steer you to a couple stories that reflect exactly where you are. Right. Christian Wiese 28:52 Yeah, but more than that, if I could add on that, because I really think it's important for people like you and I and your viewers. Think of that. See? You that was brainwashed by his father mother to be somebody, you know, go to Harvard. Yeah, buddy, no be member of that golf club or whatever it is. And then you meet all those competitive people and you just put all your identity and building profits. And then there comes that moment and God forbid anybody, if it happens to anybody, but let's say the daughter certainly gets cancer. Can you just suddenly say, Whoa, I couldn't care less what the profit statement is, I need to make sure that my daughter is okay and that she gets healthy again, so that those life changing moments, but he didn't say, well, it's no longer about profit, but what is it about? And that I think is the opportunity to really have the people in the important places, CEOs, the upper management, the inventors creators, that they have that guidance of You know, moving towards a new model? Yeah. And I think if we if we get a few of those people, amazing change. Brandon Handley 30:08 What's your what's your vision of a new model? Christian Wiese 30:11 quantum new model is just the understanding that the economic model of scarcity is gone. That we live in a world of abundance that everybody has to find it and that's a spiritual journey because we have to start overriding the voices of our parents, the voices of society, the voices of our spouse, tables, Rosa, that's amazing thing. It's not an any spiritual folks always say us versus them. It's not true, or the unconscious person if it wasn't for the unconscious person. It's not true, right? Brandon Handley 30:45 We have growing Why is that not true? Let's Let's hit on. Why is that not true? Christian Wiese 30:49 Well, it can be true in the sense that people get so annoying that we just say I have to leave. And then they're part of the process, but often, it is our own. As I said to you, my spiritual experience was for the last two years where I didn't have as much to do as, as I used to when I did exactly what you were doing having my nine to five job and then at night, you know, working streamer hours to get my books out, I suddenly realize you know, there is an inner void that I had to face. And yes, I was so cool at my work and I was so cool as a life coach and so cool in my writing, but you know what that coolness means something to me. And that's not I don't want people to project to me that's, that's not it. I have to find a way to to to face it in a void and of course the underdog it'll say meditation. You go invert, you discover the light within. The first part of the journey is we see the light without the second part of the journey is we discover the light within minutes. It's really not rocket science. So without It happens to everyone. Brandon Handley 32:01 Well, you know, and but but it you know, it's still again, I think until you begin the journey until you kind of start to experience. It's not part of your peripheral, right? It's not it's not, it's not something that you're willing to accept. Yeah, that's right. I, you know, like I said to you earlier, I'm working on my, on some of my information, right? For kind of describing, because it's, this is a I'm building it as I go. But what does it say? I said, you know, spirituality. So this, you know, look, I'm, I'm talking to my generation, right? Mm hmm. But also, spirituality for the person that couldn't give a shit about it until now. Unknown Speaker 32:46 Right, because, Brandon Handley 32:48 until you until until you have had an experience, you're not going to be triggered to seek more and seek harder because you have had That experience. Christian Wiese 33:01 I think those people are incredibly powerful and incredibly potent, because I do see a little problem as those very spiritual guys. Again live in their own head. Yeah, oh, you have to be a vegetarian. All you have to do all you have to do that, by the way, I am a vegetarian at moral grounds, but I eat a burger over the veggie burger. I do not feel any difference. However, on the moral ground, I'd say, yeah, it's not nice what we do for our animals. But the thing is, if you just live in your you have to feel it. If you just live in your head, you will always play those us versus them games and they're always different, us versus them never because the only insight of spirituality is we are all one. The critical voice that confronts us is us speaking to ourselves. We have to just find a way to either say I don't want to deal with her right now going a different direction not to say There must be a way how we can integrate our views because we have one. Right, Brandon Handley 34:08 right right now. And I love that. I think it was for me to work with a particular group where I understood about, you know, cooperation and trust and supporting each other. And just like you were saying earlier, I feel like that's a place where, if you can't be or don't feel comfortable with being vocal about spirituality, you can apply spirituality. Would you say that that's true? Christian Wiese 34:38 And don't talk about it, that the other mistake that the spiritual books say, they go out to the public and say, Oh, you just don't know the power of communication, the power of connectivity, the power of caring, don't say a word Just do it. Right. Because when you say something, the other person will say, Well, what a loony but the moment when you actually do it, The other person will take notice. And I do think there is incredible I mean, when it comes to the power of actually, I think it's a course in miracles that says creation is communication, which I think in our modern world is incredibly important because in a sense, it's all especially what you do. It's all about communication, connectivity, creative, creativity, caring for each other. So I had in the book, the four C's, as I called it, I think that that all applies for the modern society, especially the stuff that you're doing. And if you start using the experiment, I'm not an ego. Let me see if I think that the other guy ain't so bad. If I start with a premise, let me see what happened. In next day. The guy starts You know, taking the foreign advantages, okay, Soviet experiment wasn't, wasn't so successful. But in my experience, I did it for seven years. It worked like a charm. But it was a psychological experience. You felt the fear the other person felt the fear the getting together is a process. It doesn't happen overnight. But when you start out with that process, let me experiment those very powerful themes. A you will be successful. But if you do it on a higher level, if a CEO start saying, you know what we are all, we all talk the talk, but we don't walk the walk, right? We all say all we can take care of each other. But at the end of the day, whoever brings in the most money is the guy who gets promoted and whoever doesn't bring in the most money as a problem, right? Well, that's a very spiritual because it might be that this is support person, a blue guy who actually carries himself A team, right? But you only reward the guy who brings in the money. Sure. So if you really start with the premise, we are one unit. Let's take care of each other. Let's build something together. Let's have an incentive structure that really rewards true connectivity and trusting each other. I do think operations can go very far. Because when you really believe in the in the company you're working for you go out of your way to deliver when you think Well, my boss is just telling stories, and he doesn't care for me at all. And the moment when things don't go my way out the out of the door. You will not deliver the same goods that you do and I think it's a very powerful Brandon Handley 37:48 100% hundred percent like, you know, I just left one company not too long ago, and that was the feel you nothing ever felt safe and secure. Right? Not for For top performers or bottom performers, nobody. So how are you going to perform on a consistent basis in that environment? versus where I'm at now, um, similar environment of me similar similar type of work. But, you know, like I said, the, from the top down, they're leading with spirituality, and they mean it. It's very powerful. It's also challenging to wrap my head around some of it, you know, because I'm just grown up with this other environment, right? So you've grown up in this other environment, you're like, Okay, well, you've got to adapt and somewhat rapidly, but it seems like what is this? So just going through a new wardrobe right here, you gotta try on these. Christian Wiese 38:47 For anybody who has been trained by the modern Western model. You know, tough guys finish first. nice guys finish last and similar statements. America, it shouldn't happen. But the model that we are living, the Western society is living and the eastern guys are a little different. They're smarter than us. They have, they have a little bit more of that idea of oneness. And the Europeans are somewhere in the middle. So I know a little bit about it, because at work, I was covering Japan, which is really at the other extreme of the, of the spectrum. I live. I've spent now most of my life in the US, but I grew up in Germany. So I actually felt that I experienced was all three models, Europe, somewhere in between the Americans very much about the individual, and the Asians, the Chinese, the Japanese kind of really believing in the power of one, right. Every model has its strengths and advantages. I guess if you play football, you should believe in the proper cause. If you play golf, you should you should believe in the power of the individual. But if you're on a company, maybe some of the spiritual concept people make you a lot of money. Brandon Handley 40:02 Yeah, no, no 100%. You know, just just again, going back to the point like when you show your teammates, you know, cooperation and you give them trust and you support them in, you know, give them some autonomy, right? Don't micromanage price and value their inputs genuinely. It's changes the whole dynamic. Christian Wiese 40:29 They work from early in the morning until late at night if we need to produce something because they believe in, right? Brandon Handley 40:38 Yeah. No, that's true. That's true. I wanted to hit you know, two more things here. The bliss point, you know, I think that's an interesting concept and idea, what would you you know, what would you say that that is, is there a specific one, there's definitely been numbers thrown about there. How can you tell that you are As your bliss point, Christian Wiese 41:02 it's very complicated, then I do think you sometimes need a coach like you for that. Because you shouldn't short sell yourself. You shouldn't say all text is not good for me. That's what the book said, Oh, I shouldn't be greedy and shouldn't earn money. And I hate those capitalists who have that big house and right. No, that's a lot of repression in debts knew it could be true for some, maybe there are some monks, but there's a lot of repression. And I don't think that's spirituality at all. I think, again, going back to the young example, first you try to assert yourself, you say, I need a loving companion, I need a worker I can really express myself. I like because it's and I like big cars and I like to have a motorcycle. I want to have those three things. And then you try to try for 10 years. 15 years, maybe After the changes, you know what? I now understand the trade off. Yes, I could earn money but it doesn't give me meaning. Or maybe it's the kind of well I earn a lot of money and it gives me so much meaning. We can't say what happened to an individual, but everybody has to try to so the way I would put it is everybody has to create a garden, you know, the Garden of Eden, your own personal garden, and you figure out over the decades what it really is, that is important. We, of course, family men. I mean, to me, family is everything. No. But we both love creative expression and connecting with others. Brandon Handley 42:39 Yeah, listen, I mean, that's that for me is so huge, right? I you know, we you said, you know, so we've used the word creative and creativity so often through here, you know, I think a lot of people are under the mistaken impression that creativity can only be applied to painting or drawing or writing? Where else can it be applied from your from your perspective? Christian Wiese 43:05 Well, I was at work, as I said, I started out as an economist, but then I realized if I just put out an economic forecast, people say very interesting, but how can I make money? And you know, then you say, Okay, well, how can I help them making money and then you go into the direction of well, it's all psychology. As long as that line goes down, people are depressed, but the moment when it stops going down, that's the moment when markets get exciting. So it was about psychology about getting appealed for short term forecasts and how it can, can use it. And the most wonderful transition happened over those 20 years. 10 years I spent as a scientist, right. And then 10 years I spent as an artist, because then certainly when I came to psychology, it's but above feeling when it came to those lines that went up and down was literally taking the pencil thing I have a hunch that over the next couple of months, we will start seeing this. And I literally became an artist of have better pattern recognition is is as much an art as a science. And I immediately went into the artists position. So Can anybody be creative at Walmart? I don't know. You know, sometimes we have to leave certain places. But Can everybody within that job description can find ways to connect more to be more creative to really express themselves? Absolutely. Because I lifted I learned about I needed a long time for that, I hope with your help other people that can do it faster. I literally needed 10 years. But it's been a long time now, because I went from the left part of the brain to the right part of the brain. And you literally have to restructure your neurons to be to come out on the other side. Brandon Handley 44:55 Now for sure, for sure. And I think Well, I think that with technology Today, not necessarily the, you know, compute power or any of these other things, but with the ability to listen to audios and go out and find what it is that is striking your chord. And you can go and you can do, you can build those neuron paths quickly. I pray, you can build this neuron pass quickly. So the others I asked about, like, you know, kind of, and I appreciate, you know, how you applied like the artistry to to your work and you became an artist in that space. But one of the, you know, you ended it with like, you know, the person at Walmart, can they be creative? Can they become an artist? I say yes, in the sense of, they create the experience. Right? You know, how do you create meaning in what it is that you do and the example that I use years ago, for me, was when I was banging around on Excel spreadsheets and press n Buttons every day as a man, all I do is I show it to work, I bang bang around on this machine, I press buttons, I say, what what are you really doing? And what am I really doing? And, you know, so for me, I was selling to a large service provider at that time. And I thought about the, the idea of what I was doing was enabling all the bits and zeros in like, everywhere that was happening because the work that I was doing was directly touching almost every bit of zero that you know, covered at least east coast. So, and, you know, I was like, well, who's at the end of the end of that today? I'm creating relationships today I'm enabling, you know, these things. So, I would say, you know, for the person that is at Walmart, and if they can create a happy experience that they can help somebody locate, you know, maybe racquetball for whatever for that person's dog. They're creating an experience and so they are In essence creating, it's your willingness to recognize your creative capacity. Christian Wiese 47:06 That's right. I have a beautiful story that I share in the upcoming book, which will come out maybe later this year, early next year. It's called the daymaker. Did you hear that story? Now? Tell me about it. Okay, so there was a guy who was flying business class from Australia. And he was flying business class and he was sitting next to and you know, one of those very serious business type people and, and, and the guy said, so what do you do for a living? He said, Oh, I'm a daymaker. The guy looked at him as a daymaker. What are you okay, so it turns out, he was a hairdresser. But he said he had so much fun doing it and he had so much energy that, that he, you know, emitted in a sense he was doing He was making the day for people. And initially when you had to start this out a very interesting UI opinion of themselves, but then the start continues and says one day he was in this in a shop and a woman came one customer, she came two weeks ahead of schedule, it's out. Can you speak to me in Excel? Absolutely. And he said on that day, they both had a lot of fun developing support, and he presumed that she had a special event that you had to go through. So you know, they spent an hour together and then she went off. And a week later, she got a he got a letter from her saying that on that day, she actually wanted to commit suicide, but she kind of wanted to look good. And by just hanging out with that guy and feeling his energy, and you know, she always liked him, he decided not to. So you know, that really gives meaning to the word daymaker. And I think very much like your spiritual experience to see ones and zeros. If we just if we just start To remind ourselves what kind of input we have, right? I think that already would be out of this point. Brandon Handley 49:06 Yeah, yeah. No, I love that story because the impact that you're having is so much greater than, than you're giving yourself credit for. That's right, right. That's wrong. So well, you know, so you've got the two books, you've got the way of the Meister that's out. You have the experience. Experiment. What's the other one? Because a magnificent experiment, magnificent experiment. And now you've got another one coming out. Yeah. What's up? Do you have a you have a working title yet? Christian Wiese 49:34 Yeah, actually, we have a couple of books. So I mentioned my partner, we want to open a spiritual center and, and she has a mentor in Cape Town. And, and she has translated a book that deals with chick Gong. So the energy dynamics and we put out that that book because I think it really is addresses an area that that in our in our industry, I was almost tempted to say in our you know, in our profession is often overlooked the feelings of power feelings. So literally to understand the feelings that are going through it and having method of dealing with them. So that's one very exciting book, The title is letting go release your suffering. Okay. The other book is a little bit more into the philosophical direction that I started to discuss here a little bit. It's kind of what is religious state of no self, it's really the ultimate freedom so that the title of the book is breaking free. So really the discussing the next step in the spiritual journey that happens to everyone, which is just in a sense, becoming part of a bigger oneness, which itself increasingly being, you know, out of the picture, which is really a lot of fun. Brandon Handley 50:54 Right, right. I mean, once you remove yourself and you know, I talked about it without One of my first podcasts is kind of letting go and letting God Christian Wiese 51:02 Right. Yeah. Right. Same idea. Right. Do you want to talk Brandon Handley 51:08 about spiritual center at all? I just got coming up. How's that looking for you? I think it's super exciting for you. How's it? How's that? How's that feel? Christian Wiese 51:14 Yeah, so we got a little delayed with the COVID crisis, because, you know, meditation is all about hanging out with each other. We haven't done anything. She sits in Washington, DC. So the hope is we start something in Washington, DC, but we will only get a reading on that next year. Okay. This is just about getting the book out and hopefully, we'll build some momentum. Brandon Handley 51:38 Awesome. I love it. I love it. So I think I think the book, both ones I've read, I've enjoyed and I think that they've helped me on my spiritual journey. They've helped me to, you know, see how you've gone through it right because others other Listen, people have gone through what you're going through for any listener out there, right. So no matter what you think you're going through Somebody has gone through this, you're not the first you won't be the last. That's right. It is a it is a wonderful, crazy experience. But there are people like, you know, I can reach out to Christian if I'm going through something and just talk about it right? And he's gone through it. A lot of the stuff that I've gone through or you're very good at helping give me direction at least feel like hey, maybe not me, but maybe maybe go you know, look in this area, here's, you know. Unknown Speaker 52:27 And so Brandon Handley 52:29 by reading your books, I can kind of see where my journey is going. And so I really enjoy that. So thank you for writing these books. Thanks you for sharing with with not just me, but with others, right? Your journey has been very, very helpful. Where should we send people to go kind of find you and get in contact with you? Christian Wiese 52:47 No, I think the best way I mean, you can find me on Facebook, but otherwise, the best way is really my website. It's w w w dot Christian and then my middle initial which is m which is also the maesteg And then my last name visa.com. And they can find everything access to the books and to the block and and also to somebody who wants to work with me my services. So that's the best way of Brandon Handley 53:15 awesome thanks for hanging out today. Christian Wiese 53:16 Thank you so much for this

With the "All - Mighty" return of Colombian Papi (sometimes) we decide to give you guys another show this week since we have been slackers. Colombian Papi tells us some stories about his recent vacation (and the vacation from the show). We kick the can around a little bit and head to a break. After the break we have Colombian Papi's 'sought - out - for' segment which was about Cocaine.. again. Play along with us and guess how much? What? What are you talking about?

Tread more lightly and create a beautiful sustainable spaces by using repurposed materials. Annie and Shane from Salvage Merchants show you how to repurpose materials for your next renovation or home improvement project.In this episode we discuss:What sort of materials you can use for renovation and home improvementTips you can use for your DIY repurposing projectsBiggest mistakes people use when they use repurposed materialsCreating bespoke pieces using items with sentimental value and salvaged materials**This episode of the Dream Home Movement was recorded live at the RPPFM**Follow the Salvage MerchantsWebsiteFacebookInstagramFollow the Dream Home MovementFacebookInstagramFollow Carl and Jo VioletaFacebookInstagramWebGuest bioHusband and wife team, Shane and Annie Brereton quit their jobs in 2017 and went searching for adventure. They dreamed up Salvage Merchants on a trip down the East Coast of Australia. A desire to tread more gently led them to repurposing. With too many combined skills to mention, this dynamic duo create unique, authentic living spaces using salvaged materials. They value doing more with less, driving change through example, connection without competition and open hearted engagement with their clients and they don’t mind getting their hands dirty to create something truly beautiful for their clients!Transcript00:00:00 - 00:00:05Welcome to the Dream Home movement. This's your weekly dose of home00:00:05 - 00:00:11and property inspiration. Bring you clever tips and advice from the very best00:00:11 - 00:00:20experts. And really like Renno storeys with your host, Joe Violeta. Welcome00:00:20 - 00:00:23back to the Dream Home Movement. You're here with me, your host job,00:00:23 - 00:00:29Violet. And tonight we are talking about repurpose ing materials for your00:00:29 - 00:00:35renovation and for home improvements. So to help me of that topic, I have00:00:35 - 00:00:41Anne and her husband, Shane, from salvage merchants in the studio. Now00:00:41 - 00:00:45their business specialises in renovating and making over space is using00:00:45 - 00:00:50salvaged and repurpose materials. They offer a solution beginning from design00:00:50 - 00:00:54right through to implementation and everything in between. They're00:00:54 - 00:00:59completely hands on from beginning to end, and they don't mind getting their00:00:59 - 00:01:06hands dirty to truly crypt create beautiful, sustainable spaces for their client.00:01:06 - 00:01:12Welcome to the studio. It's lovely to have you here, and I think what we might00:01:12 - 00:01:16start off where before we get stuck into the nitty gritty because we're going to00:01:16 - 00:01:20look at what sort of materials you can use when you're repurpose ing for00:01:20 - 00:01:24renovation. Home improvement. We're going toe. I'm going to pick anyone00:01:24 - 00:01:33Shane's brains for tips that you can use and also look at mistakes that people00:01:33 - 00:01:37make when they're using repurposed materials. We're going to look at all that00:01:37 - 00:01:42stuff is loads of value in this episode. But before we get started, what led you00:01:42 - 00:01:47to create a business that uses repurpose ing for renovation and home00:01:47 - 00:01:53improvement? So why salvage merchants? Joe, we didn't really have a plan,00:01:53 - 00:01:58to be honest almost two years ago, we were both feeling pretty dissatisfied00:01:58 - 00:02:05with the 9 to 5 grind, and we just had a desire Teo work together. We've got00:02:05 - 00:02:10what we consider a pretty unique combined skill set, and we work really well00:02:10 - 00:02:15as a team. And so this was something we wanted to have a go it. We weren't00:02:15 - 00:02:18exactly sure what salvage merchants would look like, and it has certainly00:02:18 - 00:02:26changed in the two short years we've been going. But at the rial heart of our00:02:26 - 00:02:31business was a passion to churn a little more gently on this earth and which we00:02:31 - 00:02:37are doing in our home life. But doing it our business life as well. I absolutely00:02:37 - 00:02:42love that, and there does seem to be a riel movement at the moment towards00:02:42 - 00:02:48more sustainable living and particularly it comes to crew creating homes with00:02:48 - 00:02:53here on the peninsula. There's definitely a move towards using more00:02:53 - 00:02:58environmentally friendly materials. Ram Jeff Walls, for example. So I love00:02:58 - 00:03:04that. That's one of the inspirations behind your business. So what kind of00:03:04 - 00:03:12materials do you repurpose anything from furniture? Anything from building00:03:12 - 00:03:18materials, doors, windows. There is so much out there to be used, and I see it00:03:18 - 00:03:22every day because we look for it and it sze everywhere and everyone's00:03:22 - 00:03:30backyard or so one of the main basis off our business is to reuse repurpose. So00:03:30 - 00:03:33find something that you've already got or something that already exists instead00:03:33 - 00:03:38of going out and buying the new all the time. So we work around sourcing00:03:38 - 00:03:43materials. That would be, as I said, furniture from antique shops, vintage00:03:43 - 00:03:48shops, anything that takes your fancy, and you, Khun with the styles, he says00:03:48 - 00:03:51you can mix all that up so we look for that and we also looked for building00:03:51 - 00:03:54materials from wrecking yards, houses getting knocked down, a ll the time we00:03:54 - 00:03:59see them beautiful houses knocked down and then something a big box built00:03:59 - 00:04:03back up there and nothing reused, and it's quite sad to see it all go to waste.00:04:03 - 00:04:07So anything from anything from furniture at the end of the smallest piece,00:04:07 - 00:04:12right up to a whole house full of full of gear that we use, that's it. Basically.00:04:12 - 00:04:19Wow. So it Khun Bay furniture. It could be building materials like tiles.00:04:19 - 00:04:22Would trials are hard won. Yeah, and it's one of the hard ones to get up. But00:04:22 - 00:04:28timber flooring, skirting boards, doors, windows A ll, that sort of thing. Yes,00:04:28 - 00:04:32yes, they're pretty much anything. Get out of the house without breaking it is00:04:32 - 00:04:38reusable. Wow, that's amazing. And I greet is really sad. You do see a lot of00:04:38 - 00:04:44beautiful mid century homes, older homes, beautiful with sometimes a00:04:44 - 00:04:50beautiful art Deco features and they just ripped down on. We put four town00:04:50 - 00:04:55houses on top of where they, which is fine, like, you know, I totally get that.00:04:55 - 00:05:01We want to develop affordable housing and invest in property and all that sort00:05:01 - 00:05:06of stuff. But it is sad if that's right down and then nothing is. It's just gone00:05:06 - 00:05:13completely. Yes, so do you have any tips for people who would like to use00:05:13 - 00:05:18repurpose and up cycled materials in their homes that they want to do a bit of d00:05:18 - 00:05:24I y Yeah, look, I think for a lot of us, we all think everything's too hard, and00:05:24 - 00:05:28so there's a lot of procrastination and nothing happened. So my advice, really,00:05:28 - 00:05:32just like our business is, Just have a go. You know, there's so much to be00:05:32 - 00:05:37learned out there. We're so fortunate with the Internet, with Pinterest YouTube00:05:37 - 00:05:44all those avenues available, asked to us tto learn and to explore different uses S00:05:44 - 00:05:49O if you've got something that you love and you cherish but sitting in a carbon00:05:49 - 00:05:53, it's not being used. Just jump on Pinterest, jump on some of those online00:05:53 - 00:05:58sites and have a look for some ideas and you'll find tutorials. You find all sorts00:05:58 - 00:06:05of things. Teo learn how how to do things. But yeah, I guess my main advice00:06:05 - 00:06:10is just have a go. Just give it a crack. What have you got to lose? And00:06:10 - 00:06:21Pinterest is a great source of inspiration. It's also Rabbit Hole. You can get E00:06:21 - 00:06:26and I can actually track my life through my boards. You know, 10 years ago it00:06:26 - 00:06:34was wedding staff and then it's like baby staff. And now it's like cleaning stuff00:06:34 - 00:06:44, eyes happening to my life. Thea Pinterest is great. Ah, lot of because I get a00:06:44 - 00:06:50lot of real life. You know, people on the show is just ordinary people that have00:06:50 - 00:06:59done their own renovations and love them like YouTube. U e. But I really love00:06:59 - 00:07:05that. Just give it a go. Give it a go. You offer a service where you create00:07:05 - 00:07:09among your other services. You offer a service where you create bespoke00:07:09 - 00:07:16pieces for your clients. What does that process involve? So, Joe, usually00:07:16 - 00:07:22what happens is a client will come to us either with an idea or potentially a00:07:22 - 00:07:29problem that they need solving and to give you an example way really00:07:29 - 00:07:34encourage our customers to reuse things they've got. And we have beautiful00:07:34 - 00:07:37customer that we've done quite a few pieces for. And she had her00:07:37 - 00:07:44grandmother's vintage mix up bench mix up and she'd seen Shane had made a00:07:44 - 00:07:50similar lamp out of an old mixer in store. We used to have a little retail store,00:07:50 - 00:07:54which we no longer Joe on DH. She came one day and she said, Look, I've00:07:54 - 00:08:00got this in the cupboard and I don't use it But I love it and it has great sentiment00:08:00 - 00:08:03And I said, What? You let us turn it into a lamp on DH? She was just thrilled00:08:03 - 00:08:09. It just is incredible to see how people feel and the connexion that they have.00:08:09 - 00:08:14Teo really simple pieces. They don't have to be expensive, but they create true00:08:14 - 00:08:18meaning. And that's really what we're about. ATT. The moment chains00:08:18 - 00:08:24building a beautiful outdoor table for some clients who were doing it a big00:08:24 - 00:08:29outdoor renovation for and they haven't existing table. But they don't love it00:08:29 - 00:08:34and said, What can we use and way happen? Tohave instructs, um, old00:08:34 - 00:08:42timber palate pieces. Once of a better word, they were packing pieces of00:08:42 - 00:08:46packing timbered. These we've little pieces of hacking timber and Shane's00:08:46 - 00:08:51laminate them all together and made this incredible table on bench seats,00:08:51 - 00:08:55which they haven't seen yet. So, George, if you're listening, just stand by00:08:55 - 00:08:59because it was really exciting. Further it, it's just it's beautiful and, you know00:08:59 - 00:09:03, these are pieces of timber picked up off the side of a road actually by another00:09:03 - 00:09:07customer of ours who saw them and couldn't let them go to waste loaded them00:09:07 - 00:09:10up in is you brought them down to us and he said, Hey, guys, could you we00:09:10 - 00:09:14use them We said, Well, not now, but we will and we have. And that's00:09:14 - 00:09:20fantastic. Well, so that they would have ended up in landfill. Correct. And00:09:20 - 00:09:27now can we just go back to the mix up? Hold on What? The mix. It became a00:09:27 - 00:09:36lamb mixture like a MENSA and then e a nick so that you make cakes. We do00:09:36 - 00:09:41that, um, insight still into elect. You know, the ones that used to be, oh,00:09:41 - 00:09:45handled. It's great looking pieces, but no one knows what they're doing00:09:45 - 00:09:51because it's all electric these days. So turned into a lamp so you could have00:09:51 - 00:09:56something at home that has great sentimental value. But there's no riel00:09:56 - 00:10:03everyday use for it. You'd like to be able to see it or use it or borrow, and you00:10:03 - 00:10:07could go. We could got come to you and just say, this is what I've got what00:10:07 - 00:10:14can what do you believe that one of the favourite lance that chains made was a00:10:14 - 00:10:19old silver tea set. So the coffee part in the Sugar Bowl and Crema and hey00:10:19 - 00:10:24stepped it all up into a beautiful, beautiful lamp. And you know that that was00:10:24 - 00:10:27something that belonged to somebody that was sitting in a cupboard not being00:10:27 - 00:10:34used. And now it's enjoyed every day. I love that. That is so very clever. Are00:10:34 - 00:10:40there any other very special bespoke pieces that you've created for a client that00:10:40 - 00:10:47really stand out for year? Look, the ultimate is a complete cottage. So we00:10:47 - 00:10:53were very fortunate, really Early in our business, Tio have been contacted by00:10:53 - 00:10:59some some people that we knew through through other connexions and they00:10:59 - 00:11:02asked us for some input into little cottage. They have down here on the00:11:02 - 00:11:08Mornington Peninsula on their property and we're looking at ways Teo utilise00:11:08 - 00:11:12that space and I don't think either of us. We're quite sure what we're going to00:11:12 - 00:11:16do. And we put together some ideas and basically they turned around and said00:11:16 - 00:11:22, Yes, Tio, what we propose, which was back in that day, a Pinterest board00:11:22 - 00:11:28and with great faith and trust in us. These incredible people literally and00:11:28 - 00:11:34figuratively handed us the keys to their property and said, Do what you like00:11:34 - 00:11:40and we delivered them. And Airbnb business full off completely bespoke00:11:40 - 00:11:44pieces. So speaking about Lance being made, they've got a beautiful little old00:11:44 - 00:11:51bell in the on sweet that's made from a light Sorry, that's made from a bell.00:11:51 - 00:11:57The vanity sink in the bathroom is an old jam, copper posh on DH. Pretty00:11:57 - 00:12:02much everything in that cottage was either secondhand or actually belonged to00:12:02 - 00:12:08the clients and had been repurposed or part from mattresses and linen, which00:12:08 - 00:12:15we really don't go second hand on fair. Everything else was created by us, so00:12:15 - 00:12:21it's a complete bespoke solution for them, and we're just so incredibly proud of00:12:21 - 00:12:26it. And so, you know, thrilled that somebody would have that trust Eunice00:12:26 - 00:12:32Teo build a business for them like that. Have I seen photos of that little Jack00:12:32 - 00:12:40cottage? So if you're listening to the live show head on over Teo, either goatee00:12:40 - 00:12:46instagram and go to either the Dream Home Movement page, the latest couple00:12:46 - 00:12:54of posts the Jack Cottage or go to is it salvage merchants. Yet on Instagram,00:12:54 - 00:13:00and I'm pretty sure that was one of your most recent posts as well was the Jack00:13:00 - 00:13:05If you go on overto ira, go to both instagram accounts and have a look and you00:13:05 - 00:13:11you will see just how gorgeous this piece of I think it's like livable artwork. To00:13:11 - 00:13:15be honest with you, I was really quite stunned. You may have noticed I went a00:13:15 - 00:13:21little bit over the top with Instagram storeys that cottage this week. It's00:13:21 - 00:13:25gorgeous and people can stay. There certainly can, eh? So what, They just00:13:25 - 00:13:31look up Jack Cottage Instagram. It's Jack Underscore Cottage and got the most00:13:31 - 00:13:36beautiful garden surrounds Just down in Somerville on DH. It's a really00:13:36 - 00:13:40beautiful place to start. Hell over. There we go. You just get your clients a00:13:40 - 00:13:51little Ah, that sounds amazing. And to be given creative licence is amazing On00:13:51 - 00:13:56the topic off Airbnb Tze and bed and breakfasts and that sort of thing the00:13:56 - 00:14:02peninsula is brimming with holiday rentals. I just stayed in a gorgeous one in00:14:02 - 00:14:07German or a couple of weeks ago, but there's just so many Airbnb. He's on the00:14:07 - 00:14:13peninsula, and I was doing a bit of research for this episode, and I noticed that00:14:13 - 00:14:19you've got a service called the Elevate BNB service, which I think would be00:14:19 - 00:14:24perfect for the peninsula. All these Airbnb he's on the peninsula. So can you00:14:24 - 00:14:30tell us about that that service? What? What does it involve? Sure, So it's a00:14:30 - 00:14:35service that we provide. And Jack Cottage was really eye opening for us and00:14:35 - 00:14:41was footing the door to the short term rental market. And we just absolutely00:14:41 - 00:14:48love it and very keen to provide experiences for people and help people that00:14:48 - 00:14:54already have event. These short term rentals really elevate their experience00:14:54 - 00:14:58because there are some horror storeys out. There s o the service that we offer00:14:58 - 00:15:05provides. It's going to have a look at the property and really looking at every00:15:05 - 00:15:09aspect of the property, from online presence, social media presence,00:15:09 - 00:15:17photography and imagery of the cottage pricing structure right through00:15:17 - 00:15:25everything to do with with house manuals, all sorts of tips and tricks that we00:15:25 - 00:15:29know. We've spent a lot of time on a lot of energy and researching thiss field.00:15:29 - 00:15:35So we go and we then compare this property with other comparable listings in00:15:35 - 00:15:40the immediate area. So if it's a two bedroom sleep, small people, we would00:15:40 - 00:15:44We would present a really comprehensive report of recommendations based on00:15:44 - 00:15:48comparable process properties where where we feel your property could sit00:15:48 - 00:15:52pricing wise. And you know what? Your occupancy should be sitting out,00:15:52 - 00:15:56what sort of returns you should be getting. And from there we provide a really00:15:56 - 00:16:00detailed list of recommendations of what we could do to really get you up to00:16:00 - 00:16:05that stage. Because, as I'm sure you're an Airbnb user, I'm sure you've looked00:16:05 - 00:16:10at lots of properties online, looked at an image, and I never stayed there. Yeah00:16:10 - 00:16:17, and imagery really is the first thing, and it's an easy thing to solve. And so00:16:17 - 00:16:22we help clients right through every step of that process through the having, as00:16:22 - 00:16:27we say, having the pantry stopped ready to go. So that's what we offer. We00:16:27 - 00:16:31provide a report. We come down, we have a look. We provide a report, and00:16:31 - 00:16:35then you can choose which recommendations you like to pursue from there.00:16:35 - 00:16:42Wow, that's like a four consultancy services. Well, that's amazing. And so00:16:42 - 00:16:47needed because the competition is fierce on the peninsula. Yes, a lot of people00:16:47 - 00:16:53like to holiday here, but there are a lot of being based to compete with. But I00:16:53 - 00:17:00still think you can make great money if you've got the right product. And yet00:17:00 - 00:17:06imagery is just so important, isn't it? Absolutely. It's gotto feel like you're00:17:06 - 00:17:11having a break from reality. You know, you're providing an experienced, you00:17:11 - 00:17:15get experience. It's not. You're not just doing in somebody's home, you know00:17:15 - 00:17:19you are or rental or whatever. It's an experience. That's what people want.00:17:19 - 00:17:22And that's what they should be demanding for the money that they're spending00:17:22 - 00:17:27something out of the ordinary, something different and unique and spoke on00:17:27 - 00:17:31DH. That's what we help our clients create. And then they choose the00:17:31 - 00:17:36recommendation, and then you go and we do and then do it all case. It's00:17:36 - 00:17:41consultancy, and then it's the actual implementation that's correct, so they can00:17:41 - 00:17:45take on board a ll the ideas and tips that we give them and do it themselves if00:17:45 - 00:17:49they work. Ideally, we like to get in there and, you know, get it looking,00:17:49 - 00:17:54looking good online style, A little bit, you know, with a reasonably low00:17:54 - 00:17:59budget actually just boost the sales, boost the accommodation and that's what00:17:59 - 00:18:03it's all about. You wantto you want your business to go online and be00:18:03 - 00:18:09successful. But if you haven't got a ll these little boxes ticked. It's really hard.00:18:09 - 00:18:13A CZ, you said with with all the other ones around. It's just so hard to get into00:18:13 - 00:18:20the market. And the competition's pretty and you're styling is on point as well.00:18:20 - 00:18:26Who's in charge of the styling? E. Try really? D'oh! And I'll put something00:18:26 - 00:18:29on or move something. Sure, she'll look at it and I go, What do you think?00:18:29 - 00:18:34And she just gives me this little look and I go, It's no good. So I just leave that00:18:34 - 00:18:38to her most of the time. You know, right from when I get up in the morning00:18:38 - 00:18:42and I'll set up the pillows on the bed and all that sort of thing and ensure00:18:42 - 00:18:46passing. Just look at it and I just still haven't got It just happened. So that's a00:18:46 - 00:18:50no on the duo are put things together. I screw things together and now things00:18:50 - 00:18:54and paint things and and she does to you. We both get into the into the tools00:18:54 - 00:19:02and all that sort of thing. But stylist Shane you and I like birds of a feather00:19:02 - 00:19:07soon because I just don't know what looks good with what? That's why I think00:19:07 - 00:19:10that's why I started this show so I could make friends. Have lots of stylists like00:19:10 - 00:19:16send them photos of my housing. Is this right with you on? And he says, I00:19:16 - 00:19:20want this make this like the last year she said to me, I want a Christmas tree00:19:20 - 00:19:24made out of fence pickets like, you know, the old style. Oh, cool. And she00:19:24 - 00:19:29said, He's the pickets and Christmas Trail. Okay, sat down and come back00:19:29 - 00:19:32and see. What do you think of this? You know, you're not too bad, but00:19:32 - 00:19:36changes and change that took it away again. Come back. What do you think?00:19:36 - 00:19:40I think that's really close. But you just need this and then it'll come together.00:19:40 - 00:19:46So I'm on the tools, but she's got putting himself down a lot. He has an00:19:46 - 00:19:50incredible creative. Yeah, that is honestly the real reason why we wanted to do00:19:50 - 00:19:55something together. He's got He may not know how to fluff a pillow or use00:19:55 - 00:20:01your room. That's so he does have a really great creative eye on. So00:20:01 - 00:20:06everything we do really is a combined effort way bounce ideas off off each00:20:06 - 00:20:11other all the time, and I just I just want to add about that elevates service, You00:20:11 - 00:20:16know, what I really want to say is at the heart of that whole service is the ethos00:20:16 - 00:20:21of our business, and it is reused. And so we don't come in and go and get rid00:20:21 - 00:20:26of every piece of furniture. That's just not who, Where about where about00:20:26 - 00:20:29what else have you got? What have you got hiding in the garage that I can use00:20:29 - 00:20:34? What can I say? You know, throw a lick of paint on to completely transform00:20:34 - 00:20:40that. So it's very much of the core of everything we do is our reuse repurpose00:20:40 - 00:20:44philosophy. I love that, and I just love how complimentary you are of each00:20:44 - 00:20:54other as well. I wish everyone could see in the studio that is like smiling. But00:20:54 - 00:20:59I do really appreciate the fact that you can transform and Airbnb or a home, for00:20:59 - 00:21:04example, and use stuff that you already have. We don't realise what treasures?00:21:04 - 00:21:08We've got it. You can buy it anymore. You just can't find all this stuff. You00:21:08 - 00:21:12can go into your stores so the name but and you could get a piece of furniture.00:21:12 - 00:21:17But if you go put that piece of furniture out on the front lawn and it rains on it,00:21:17 - 00:21:22it's gone. You know where some of the old stuff is just so good. And it's00:21:22 - 00:21:26coming back in, and we are. There is a turn. There's a really big shift, I think00:21:26 - 00:21:30. And we're right at the start of it because, you know, the planets all going Tio00:21:30 - 00:21:35, you know, and we're all going to get in and work out ways of doing it. And00:21:35 - 00:21:40it'll happen. It's all goingto have tto happen where we all have to actually think00:21:40 - 00:21:44about what we're actually doing day to day. Yeah, yeah, we do. Yeah, And it00:21:44 - 00:21:50is I feel like that shift is happening. I d'oh, it's very slow yet, and we're really00:21:50 - 00:21:56at the start of it. But for a long time, I didn't make a lot of changes and we00:21:56 - 00:22:00didn't as a family make a lot of changes because we all feel so overwhelmed by00:22:00 - 00:22:04how much we should be doing. And then we just made a decision as a family,00:22:04 - 00:22:09you know, progression over perfection, progression over perfection every day00:22:09 - 00:22:15. You know, if I'm better than I was six months ago, Better than I was child00:22:15 - 00:22:20months ago. We all still got a long way to go. But we've just got to try. Yeah,00:22:20 - 00:22:26I love that message. I did have Andrea from roving refills Frankston in the00:22:26 - 00:22:31studio a few months ago. She and she has a blood caught on wasteful Andrea.00:22:31 - 00:22:37And she has that same message that we get too caught up with trying to be00:22:37 - 00:22:42perfect when it comes to sustainability and reducing waste that then people just00:22:42 - 00:22:48do that. Then they become paralysed and do nothing but small changes. They00:22:48 - 00:22:53do actually add up, and they are quite significant. Don't worry. Andrew is not00:22:53 - 00:23:05. She's not perfect. No one. Every day we're still changing. We're still00:23:05 - 00:23:08becoming aware of what we're doing, and we still may. We can change that00:23:08 - 00:23:13now and, you know, and what a lover. And she'll go out and forget to take the00:23:13 - 00:23:16shopping bags with their and she'll come home with a plastic shopping where00:23:16 - 00:23:20get again and you know, you just come on and you know, the younger00:23:20 - 00:23:25generation of you got to save themselves a cz well, but yeah, and we do. We00:23:25 - 00:23:28keep making those mistakes, and sometimes you have to. You can't bring00:23:28 - 00:23:34them 20. Apple's a bag. That's fair enough. You just gotto practise it. I think00:23:34 - 00:23:38we're all gonna practise, and we'll get there eventually. What are some of the00:23:38 - 00:23:42mistakes that people make when they are using repurposed materials in in their00:23:42 - 00:23:46home? And how can they avoid those mistakes? I think one of the biggest00:23:46 - 00:23:51ones is people think it's going to be cheaper, which is not always going to be a00:23:51 - 00:23:58it. Generally it is. But if you're going to go out and buy a sticker timber from00:23:58 - 00:24:02Bunning's, it's quick. It's easy. It's reasonably cheap, and it really is. But it's00:24:02 - 00:24:06not about saving money for us. It's more about saving the earth at the end of00:24:06 - 00:24:11the day, so don't make that mistake. You think it's going to be cheaper because00:24:11 - 00:24:14quite often you'll go out and buy a piece and have to bring it back and modify it00:24:14 - 00:24:19and change it or sand it back or painted or whatever it is S O that's that's the00:24:19 - 00:24:26first thing it's never, never, never, always cheap. So that's one of the other00:24:26 - 00:24:31thing would be If it's out of your depth, just don't do it way. Can't do00:24:31 - 00:24:34everything. We can't do everything but have a go. If it's something that is00:24:34 - 00:24:38qualified tradesman like Electrician's or plumber and all that sort of thing,00:24:38 - 00:24:42they're the things that don't like to touch. I do a little bit of election electrical00:24:42 - 00:24:48work, but it's all well within my scope of skills and always get it checked by00:24:48 - 00:24:51an electrician's anyway. So I'll get it tested and tag in the light special with my00:24:51 - 00:24:58lamps and things like that s o that sze another thing have ago. But, you know,00:24:58 - 00:25:03make sure you're not well, you know, out of your depth on I think the third00:25:03 - 00:25:08more third thing, I think, was if you really need it done, if the biggest mistake00:25:08 - 00:25:16is if you haven't called us, that's a really I think that's a thing call and we'll get00:25:16 - 00:25:21it sorted for you. You know, the D I Y things is massive. Now it's you see it00:25:21 - 00:25:25on TV. Everywhere people are getting in, getting their hands dirty and having00:25:25 - 00:25:31go and it sze really a big achievement when you do something yourself and00:25:31 - 00:25:35there's plenty of help that out there A said YouTube. Get on there, you learn00:25:35 - 00:25:39how to do anything. I taught myself how to play the piano off YouTube, you00:25:39 - 00:25:43know, all rose sorts of things. And the other day I was out there learning how00:25:43 - 00:25:47to fix my car. There's something broke on it, and I fixed it. You know, it's I00:25:47 - 00:25:53didn't have to send it off and pay top dollar to get it fixed. So there's things00:25:53 - 00:25:58like that. So I have a go at it on DH. Enjoy what you do, Teo. That's what it00:25:58 - 00:26:02comes down to us. We really enjoy fixing things, and I'm Mr fix it. I just love00:26:02 - 00:26:05getting in there and getting something sold in solving problems for people. I00:26:05 - 00:26:11love that. So the biggest mistakes. Number one, not having an understanding00:26:11 - 00:26:15of your budget. When you when you embark on these projects, it just just cost00:26:15 - 00:26:24it up. So you understand how much it's going to cost and number two is trying00:26:24 - 00:26:27to do things that are actually out of your depth, and that's a message that we00:26:27 - 00:26:32share a lot on the show is that day. I was great, but there are certain things that00:26:32 - 00:26:37you actually need a qualified trades person. And also, I think, something that00:26:37 - 00:26:43I see when I watch shame, work, a cz his apprentice. But I would quite often00:26:43 - 00:26:47say to him, are We're just, you know, we just need to pop that door on there.00:26:47 - 00:26:50Or I think sometimes people underestimate that, particularly when you're00:26:50 - 00:26:55working with salvage materials. You're starting with something that perhaps00:26:55 - 00:26:59not the correct size to go in that area. It's it's not the correct think nurse. The00:26:59 - 00:27:04hinges air in a different spot. All those sorts of things that you think way have00:27:04 - 00:27:08a bit of a joke amongst ourselves. He always says, Yeah, I'll just put it in. It's00:27:08 - 00:27:16just four screws, darling e like No, it's not, is it? And Weigh replaced a door00:27:16 - 00:27:23for a client recently in her home, and it was a full day's work because we00:27:23 - 00:27:28bought a second hand or for her, and the whole jam had to be modified and00:27:28 - 00:27:32that's fine. That's exactly what we love doing. But I think people sometimes00:27:32 - 00:27:37under Estrada, underestimate how much time and effort is involved in using00:27:37 - 00:27:40salvage materials. Which brings us to mistake number three, which is not00:27:40 - 00:27:47calling. So before we get to our signature questions, let's just tell people how00:27:47 - 00:27:51they can fix mistake number three, which is how would they get in contact00:27:51 - 00:27:56with you so you can jump on? All our socials are at salvage merchants on00:27:56 - 00:28:00Facebook and Instagram, or you can find us on our website salvage merchants00:28:00 - 00:28:03dot com dot you. We're just based in Maadi, Alex. So we're just up the road00:28:03 - 00:28:06from the peninsula and we do a lot of work down this way, and we always00:28:06 - 00:28:11enjoy hopping on Peninsula linked to come down here for the day. So, yeah,00:28:11 - 00:28:15just give us a call. We'd love to chat when love to visit people's homes. We'd00:28:15 - 00:28:19love to see how people live and listen to their ideas and their concepts, and we00:28:19 - 00:28:24just really enjoy working. Their business attracts the most incredible people,00:28:24 - 00:28:29and we're really fortunate in that way really like minded people. So, Richard00:28:29 - 00:28:33Yeah, the results are stunning. Do make sure that you pop on over and cheque00:28:33 - 00:28:39out those socials and the website. All right, signature questions. What is your00:28:39 - 00:28:44favourite? Thiss question was made for you. Thiss question was made for you00:28:44 - 00:28:48. What is your favourite interior design or architectural style from a bygone era00:28:48 - 00:28:56? Well, I'd have to say as owners are very owners are. What's a CZ?00:28:56 - 00:29:02Custodians of 150 year old church would have to say. It's a Victorian era. We00:29:02 - 00:29:07have very fortunate to have a beautiful little church out past Bella Rat that00:29:07 - 00:29:16we're currently renovating to be an Airbnb for people and just that era off. It00:29:16 - 00:29:21was a really tough time in Australia, the gold rush, and we look at our little00:29:21 - 00:29:28church that is five metres high, the roof at the lowest points, five minutes high00:29:28 - 00:29:35, and this was all built by men from ladders with hand tools. And so just I00:29:35 - 00:29:41guess for me it's the appreciation off that the love and the dedication and the00:29:41 - 00:29:46care that went into buildings of that time and they are beautiful and detailed,00:29:46 - 00:29:51and it was done by hand. And that's just incredible to may. So with all that00:29:51 - 00:29:56preserving that it is incredible, isn't it? You know, we need to preserve those00:29:56 - 00:30:01sorts of buildings and that history we cannot lose that it's so important. What00:30:01 - 00:30:08does the phrase dream home mean to you? Oh, he's looking at May E May.00:30:08 - 00:30:13Well, certainly a dream. Hofer may. It's not for walls, and it never has been.00:30:13 - 00:30:19I've lived in beautiful homes. I've lived in plane, home, small homes and my00:30:19 - 00:30:27dream home is the people within a on the people that I cherish. And the items00:30:27 - 00:30:31within that means something to me that have value. Having said that, though,00:30:31 - 00:30:34Joe I have it. I have got a bit of a Pinterest board going because we have a00:30:34 - 00:30:39mutual prince Pinterest, love and Shay and I worked very hard on our Pinterest00:30:39 - 00:30:42board for our dream home property that, you know in the future will look00:30:42 - 00:30:48something like a rambling country estate with workshops being held and00:30:48 - 00:30:52community gatherings. And that's what our plan for our dream home is. But00:30:52 - 00:30:58you know, right now we live in a factory and it's unreal, and it contains00:30:58 - 00:31:04everyone that I love. That's my dream Home contains everyone that I love. I00:31:04 - 00:31:14can't wait to see your rambling one well again. If you want to find any in00:31:14 - 00:31:20Shane, you Khun, go to salvage merchants on Instagram and Facebook or all00:31:20 - 00:31:26the W's salvage merchants dot com dot a. You got that right. Great. Thank00:31:26 - 00:31:31you so much for coming in to the studio that was so informative, super00:31:31 - 00:31:36valuable and really inspiring. Thank you, Joe. It's been a real pleasure to be00:31:36 - 00:31:42here, and we just love being able to get a message out to people. Thanks for00:31:42 - 00:31:46joining us on the Dream home movement. Be sure to come over and say hi on00:31:46 - 00:31:51Facebook and Instagram. I hope that your dream home projects are going well00:31:51 - 00:31:54and I look forward to chatting with you again next week.

What is going on in this episode? No, really. What? What do they think this is achieving? Jake Yapp & Natt Tapley & Lizzie Roper find out in today's Date Fight!

Rick McClatchey, host of the Growing Faith podcast and Staff Pastor at Mannahouse Church in Portland, OR joins us today to talk about how we faithfully interpret and apply biblical texts in various situations: personal reading, small group discussion, preaching...you name it! This method applies to all of these areas. Listen in as Rick walks through the steps of asking the questions:What? (What is the meaning of the text?)So What? (Why does it matter?)Now What? (What do I do with it?)Looking for resources? Check out our affiliate links to find more books for your bible study!https://kit.co/notsosecretbibleSupport the show (https://bit.ly/3gvFQd3)

This episode is brought to you by me. If you like this show and want to support it, please visit my courses on Pluralsight and buy my new book "200 Things Developers Should Know", which is about Programming, Career, Troubleshooting, Dealing with Managers, Health, and much more. You can find my Pluralsight courses and the book at www.developerweeklypodcast.com/AboutShow resources:Follow Caleb on TwitterConnect with Caleb on LinkedInFollow Kids Comp Camp on TwitterWindows Insider Feature of Caleb NdakaSupport the Kids Comp Camp: https://www.kidscompcamp.com/support/Full transcript:Barry Luijbregts  0:17  Welcome to another episode of Developer Weekly. This week, I’m talking with Caleb Ndaka about teaching kids how to code. Caleb is a co-founder at Kids Comp Camp. Caleb Ndaka is a 2019 Obama Leader, a  2018 Mandela Washington Fellow, a 2017 Microsoft’s Windows #Insider4Good fellow and a 2015 American Express and Ashoka Emerging Innovator. He is also a TEDx speaker and a part-time actor. Great to have you on the show, Caleb, how you doing?In your bio, it says that you are a 2019 Obama leader. Can you tell me a bit about what that means? Caleb Ndaka  1:48  Obama foundation runs a program called Africa leadership program in which they try to bring young African leaders together to have conversation today. Your support system for each other in order to create proactive and authentic leaders in Africa, because they do believe that the greatest gap we have in Africa is not about resources. It's about leadership. And so they believe invest in the young leaders so that they can build and change their communities. Barry Luijbregts  2:23  Right. That's incredible. Okay, so tell me a little bit more about yourself, like, where you from and how you got into software development. Caleb Ndaka  2:33  Great. Thank you for that question. I was born in North rift Kenya in a small slump called landers. And then soon after we moved to South Eastern Kenya, a small village called kV and that's where I grew up. I went to school there, up until I went to college when they got to come to the city of Nairobi. So generally Mama Mama village boy Who, by chance got into technology got into software development. Part of that story is between high school and college, I was out of school for four years. And the reason for that is because my parents could not afford my quality education. But then four years later, as more opportunity open to join one of the local University School of computer science and information technology, and I started with a certificate cause in it, then I proceeded to a diploma course in it, then eventually graduated with a bachelor's degree in it. And with that background, I was able to be introduced now to to software development and the passion to teach kids especially in rural areas, how they can learn about our not just to use technology, but to develop technology for themselves and for their communities. Barry Luijbregts  3:56  So that they are actually creators and can create things for other people as well. Caleb Ndaka  4:01  Yes, not just consumers, but also but also creators. But also, because I do believe change from within is a more sustainable change. And so having rural communities embracing technology for themselves, creating technology for themselves, is a dream that I hold very dear to my heart. And that's what I live for every day to see how can we, how can we equip them better to know how to use technology to address the most pressing issues in their communities? Barry Luijbregts  4:34  Right. And that's a very powerful thought, I think, as in to get the power from within and not be reliable. From all these other big companies from the United States and from Europe and all over the world, but to build your own strength, yes. Caleb Ndaka  4:49  change from within power from the from within is the most powerful energy employee they never gave to people. Barry Luijbregts  4:57  So random question, what is the internet It like over there. Oh, is it fast or is it limited? Caleb Ndaka  5:03  Oh great. Like I mentioned I come from Kenya and in the last five to 10 years Kenya as witnessed a very fast growing internet penetration. And so we can say like three quarters of the country you can get stable internet connection. And that is what we are leveraging on to create our program. So we have pretty good internet, it could get better back with what we have. We can also do some meaningful stuff. Barry Luijbregts  5:33  And is it expensive? Caleb Ndaka  5:36  According to the surveys which have been done in Africa, again, Kenya, we have the lowest rates of of accessing to the to the to the internet. But the thing also is the economic power for most people, is not that strong. So it is relatively cheap but Not very cheap to the majority of people and especially to the majority of people who live in rural communities whom we we solve, Barry Luijbregts  6:07  That can be a problem, I imagine. Yes. Okay, so Well, let's talk about the thing I wanted to talk with you about about kids comp camp. So I saw this online and I was very interested in how it got started and why you started it and how it actually works. Can you tell me a bit more about why you started and what it is? Caleb Ndaka  6:29  Yeah. So kids comp comp, is an initiative to help children in rural communities in Africa to catch up with a current digital driven society. And the way it began, it was a random idea. on a road trip. I was just about to graduate from the University and a few friends asked me if we could do a road trip and we said our boat we do that road trip with laptops in our bucks and go look for I don't know school in a village And to teach those kids out to use computers. That was in April of 2014. And so we did a rotary, we carried our laptops and we found a school in one of the rural counties in the in Kenya. The first class, we had 30 kids, but it is what shook us. Out of the 30 kids, only three kids, I'd seen a laptop before. And we were like, shocked. We thought like computers and access to technology is is a thing for everyone. Only that we realized we were only reserved from, from our band kind of setting. And so that was like, the glaring gaps that we saw, and we felt like we need to do more, we need to come back and do more and more, and 2014 to right now we've been able to train over 10,000 children, both here in Kenya and also in Rwanda. 90% of those kids, this was their first time to use computers, and 54% they were girls. Barry Luijbregts  8:08  Wow, that is amazing. And and what what kind of ages do you teach? What? How old are the kids? Caleb Ndaka  8:15  So we get between 8 years old to 18 years old. So, according to the Kenyan education system that is about primary school and high school, Barry Luijbregts  8:29  and do you then also teach adults? Caleb Ndaka  8:32  Um, yes, like I've mentioned, we started in 2014. So it's been almost five to six years. And one of the things that we realized, like three years into the program was that kids, especially in Africa, don't make decisions. The decision makers are parents and teachers, and therefore we thought, in order to make our program more sustainable, we need to involve the parents. We need to involve the teacher So apart from just the core business of train kids, we've started another supportive program to train their teachers and to train their parents so that they know the benefits. And also they have the the basics of becoming like a support system to this kids. So yes, we do have a program for children. And we also have a program for adult but especially adults around the kids that we're trying to reach out to where basically the parents and teachers, Barry Luijbregts  9:30  To get their buy in and to make them help the kids. It's a very clever, so can can every kids just join or how does it work? What What skills do kids and or adults need in order to participate in the competition Caleb Ndaka  9:46  so kids could come targets children and adults with no prior exposure to computers or technology, and therefore we start with them from ground zero. We don't require any scale Or an experience, what we just ask of them is that they need to be enthusiastic to learn. So no prior skills or knowledge is required, because we were trying to get our kids and parents who have not had access to computers or technology.  And so we begin with them from ground zero.  Barry Luijbregts  10:19  So you you completely start at the beginning as in this is a laptop. Caleb Ndaka  10:26  And that is a computer. This is a mouse This is are you right click this is click, we basically begin by bailing confidence just as I want any digital device.  Barry Luijbregts  10:38  That is amazing. And do most of the participants. Have they seen other devices like phones, for instance? Caleb Ndaka  10:46  Oh, well, they're the data that we have so far is at 90% of the 10,000 plus beneficiaries of the program. This was their first attempt to use their computers. But when it comes to access to mobile devices, As the number changes a bit, we can almost say like 40% of them actually have access to, to a feature phone. And maybe 30% 20% of us have access to a smartphone. So more people right now they have access to mobile devices, but computers still as cost resource in the rural communities in Kenya.  Barry Luijbregts  11:29  So it's really mobile first. Yeah. And then some, some kids will have have had access to the internet through mobile phones, I guess. The kids come in with no experience. They learn all this stuff from you, and what do they take away when they're done? What are the skills that they have? Caleb Ndaka  11:46  Great. That's a great question. So over time, we've been we've been trying to modify our curriculum to really meet the felt needs of these kids. And we've divided our curriculum into three big blocks. The first block is what to call get started and get started, like you've mentioned is trying to build confidence of this kid around to these machines I would do up in a computer how do you use the basics of that of that computer? How would you build clear audience around any device and the next big block is what to call get productive. Now that you know how to use our computer, how can you become more productive doing your your duties and in that time, also teach them how to access the internet, how to use productive programs like Microsoft Office, and other programs which they can use in their in their daily their daily lives. And then the last big block is what to call like, Get creative, which is a big block for us. And that's where we where we introduce them, introduce them now to Cody and just bring that whole notion of you do not To be a consumer of technology, you can be a creator of technology. Yeah. So those big blocks, it's our we we try to align our curriculum, get started, get productive and great creative. Barry Luijbregts  13:14  That's great, especially that you didn't end with the empowerment of you can do it yourself. You can just type in some text on the screen and some magic happens somewhere. And somebody can press a button and something Yes, Caleb Ndaka  13:27  for sure. For sure. One of the mentality that you've been trying to fight, especially in the rural communities that we work is that most people view technology as a concept of the West. Great. Most people think that technology is something which comes from elsewhere, and we just use it. So we are trained to change that and especially to this young kid as they grow up to take up their careers to choose up their studies to show them technology is just like a pen is a toy, which you can use to rights rights. And so technology is a tool they can use to, to empower themselves is a tool that they can use to empower their community is something that they can they can use for their for their better days to come. Barry Luijbregts  14:15  Right. So yeah, it's not only just skills, but it's mostly also attitude and confidence Caleb Ndaka  14:21  a lot, a lot. And let me tell you, that's something that we I didn't know when we were starting out, I thought like, we only need to give these kids skills, but then realize when those skills they land on not very prepared attitudes, then these in mice that you can, you can do and that's why we returned also to work in the in the mind and attitude change as much as we are giving them skills that they need for 21st century. Barry Luijbregts  14:50  So let's circle back a little bit. You said that one of the parts is then also to teach the kids how to use the internet. Now, I have to Young kids, and the oldest one is four. So she's not really understanding what the internet is, luckily for me, but I'm already dreading the time where she can actually access the internet and look stuff up. Because, you know, how do you guard them from the internet and all the bad stuff that you can find on there? And how do you make sure that they know what is real and what isn't real? Because there's so much stuff on there that is just non information and things that are just false? Yeah. Do you teach about that? Caleb Ndaka  15:32  Yes. online safety is a big thing to us. In 2016, I was able to attend the Internet Governance Forum in Mexico. And that's one of the things that I came out with that on in safety is not just a thing for the first world right after ro internet. Internet is threatening the cup like we've been saying, internet is making us to be a global village. So wherever Are you accessing the internet from my village in kaisi or whether you're in Netherlands like you are, as long as you can access the internet, then we are in one space, we are in one ecosystem. And therefore we we tend to be very intentional about online safety. And part of that is teaching teachers and parents how they can become informed guardians when it comes to internet use, right? Um, yeah, the thing about them, most of the population that we're dealing with is that most of them they do not accept the internet while at home. Most of them as the internet, were there, were they in school, or were they now a program. And that's a very big advantage to us, because we become like the first people to give them an introduction to the internet. And so therefore, we believe that I just given this kids putting into to know this is useful. It is not giving these kids an opportunity to know how they can protect themselves on very basic, but yet critical levels. That's something that we are we are very keen on trying to integrate, actually to each and every component of our of our curriculum. Barry Luijbregts  17:20  Right. Yeah. And then you get the advantage of catching them in the beginning where they first start to learn to access the internet. Caleb Ndaka  17:27  Yes, yes. And that's that's very important, because their first experience forms a big a big notion of the entire experience being online. Absolutely. Barry Luijbregts  17:39  Yeah. All right. So and then you start to teach them how to code. So what do you use for coding, what kind of languages and tools we use? Caleb Ndaka  17:48  Yeah. So like I mentioned, we target age to 18. Most of these kids are in rural Kenya. And one of the challenge that we have is just access to internet. So we try to Look for tools, which do not necessarily have to rely on Internet's we are biased towards tools you can use offline. And to fit that bill crutch as been a useful resource. You can just download it in our machines, and then we can be able to roll it out. But it also is very child friendly in terms of, you can teach the basics of programming, from conditional statement from logical thinking to how to issue out commands using very child friendly graphics. So scratch is like our main tool, which we are using to teach this kids. But we've also been able to use Minecraft when we have access to connection. And again, we're just trying to create this sparkless interest and give them the basics of how to, to reason like a programmer, you know, typically out to our problem solving, how to look when they're they're going about introduction to software development, once they have the basics of that, and especially now that we have all the kids in the program right now, we're able to do a bit of HTML and CSS, and now they tend to build small websites. And they're Barry Luijbregts  19:18  right, and then they can do it themselves. And then do you also give them a CI an example projects to make sure that they have something real world to work? Yes, Caleb Ndaka  19:27  um, our approach of learning is, is what are called project based learning. And it's the way we do it. Just to mention is that a good comp comp is a not for profit, we have a very small core group, but then we work a lot with volunteers, and most of them are university students or the volunteers from the community and we do have a mobile lab, which we move around the villages with, and so the mobile lab as 21 workstations, and we will also request volunteers when they come to volunteer with that they come with their laptops. And the more than we use for teaching is we have one volunteer Trainer with between three to five kids around the table, and they have access to a device. So we change the training from being a classroom, whereby one person is talking and like 30 or 50 or 100 people are listening to him. So we change that to making learning to be in very small teams, between three to five kids with a trainer and we make learning to be very project based learning, they are walking through a very particular program project in which they will be able to demonstrate by the end of the day, or by the end of the cup, Barry Luijbregts  20:50  then it will stick because of this. It is real world. Yes. That's a very good, good way of teaching. So you mentioned you work with volunteers. as well. So how largest is the organization? How many people work for it? So Caleb Ndaka  21:05  we are not a very big organization. We have a core team of five guys. But then we we are powered by volunteers every now and then we are We surely issue out a request for volunteers to come into work with us. So for the last five, six years, we've had over 1000 volunteers from all across the country, Kenner will be able to come in volunteers with us from a weekend to a holy day long depending on when they are available. Barry Luijbregts  21:37  Well, is it difficult to find volunteers?  Caleb Ndaka  21:39  It is not. It is not because of two things. First and foremost. Most university students when it's during their long holiday, they are looking for things to keep them busy. And so right I've seen an opportunity First of all, we give them an opportunity to travel across the country, being places have never been. And we are giving them an opportunity for them to predict proactively and productively use their holiday time. So we've been able to have very good structure at comes to attracting volunteers in our program,  Barry Luijbregts  22:12  and you pay for the travel as well. That's very attractive. I imagine. And are you planning to increase your core team? So you have five core people right now? Are you planning to increase that? Caleb Ndaka  22:27  Yes, definitely. For the last four, five years, we've been able to reach out to 10,000 kids. And our next milestone is trying to reach out 50,000 kids by 2030. In what we call the visual 50 k, r. And as we grow in numbers, we also want to grow the team. And so that's something that we are working towards that we can make the program more sustainable and more impactful, Barry Luijbregts  22:57  quite some goals. What do you need for the goals to happen. Like, how do you fund your organization? Caleb Ndaka  23:04  Great, great question there. We are a not for profit organization. And so before we are relied onasking for support from our friends and our family, we've also been writing grants. And we've also had different partnerships. We've been on Microsoft before, we have, but now we have General Electric's and a few organizations will be able to come to come on board. And so that is what we've relied on in the in the past, but also in the coming days, we are trying to make the program a little bit more sustainable by introducing what we're calling the income generating activity. Let me give you an example. Like we mentioned before, we only used to train kids, but then we realized this kids need that support system. And so we need to train the parents and their teachers. So one of the The income generating activities is actually by charging adults when they come to be trained, right? So we get, we get to two things that go when an adult comes to train their pain. And so we're able to make the program a little bit sustainable. But also, most of those adults, they end up becoming part of our community trainers. So that's something that we're trying to explore. We're trying to scale it up trying to see if we can make ourselves to be self sustaining in the coming days. Barry Luijbregts  24:33  So we've talked about how kids come in with, with zero skills, and maybe a bit of experience with the internet and a mobile device. And then they learn to use the internet they you learn to use computers, and they learn how to code as well and adults as well. Do you also follow up on people that you taught as in maybe a year later to see where they are and Or do you also provide them with access to traineeships? And ultimately a job? Caleb Ndaka  25:09  Yeah, that's an interesting question. It's something that I've been trying to address. So currently, this is the way we we've been doing it. We do not do what to call 181 that we don't do one comp and go away. We try to do every comp, we try to follow up and follow up and follow up. And, and part of that is because of something that we learned in our earlier years, community involvement and community ownership is very important. Right. And so we first avoid, we do not show up in communities. We wait to be invited. So we issue out a call for nomination people nominate, and then when you know minich we come and do a survey. And that's our base to establish if there's a need And what kind of supports the community is able to offer to us. In order for us to make our follow ups to be more seamless, and to be more effective. We are training more community based trainers, and most of this community based trainers, their local teachers, and that means that data will be not skewed for the next 510 or 20 years. And either most best placed person to do the follow up even after our initial phase of our training is, is done. And so by being intentional about training teachers in that community, that's the way we are trained to feel our follow up strategy, because the the locals in that communities, they are available in that communities. And if there's kills, and if they're motivated, then they become the best follow up methods to use. Barry Luijbregts  26:55  That's a very powerful way to scale your Organization has it and to keep keep the kids engaged. Caleb Ndaka  27:03  Yes. And also every after every program we do monitoring and evaluation, and one of the key areas would be trying to, to see is to ask ourselves, are we in talking to this kid when it comes to choosing careers and choosing, you know what to study and especially as you proceed to college, or as they proceed to, to high school, and so far 60% of the kids in our program, they are now more aligned to technology base, subjects and careers. And so we believe that's something that we are adding value to them, especially among gods who would just fear or our bad attitude towards, you know, Sciences and Technology. Barry Luijbregts  27:49  So you said, you run a non for profit that is, and you get some help also from partners like Microsoft and other companies. Can our listeners maybe also help you out in some way? Because I see on your website, https://www.kidscompcamp.com/support/. People can also support you with money and other things. Caleb Ndaka  28:16  Yeah, we believe that it it takes a village to raise a child. And so even in this digital driven society, it's good to take the digital village to ensure that every child is given equal fighting rights when it comes to tackling our today's digital driven society. And so if any listener feels they're there, they're able to come and help us to get more rural kids, that there are more than enough opportunities to do that and how to do that, like you just said, please visit our website https://www.kidscompcamp.com/support/. And there are a few ways you can you can be able to support us our mission, a few of them, you know, the first thing is that every year We run a campaign called donates lunchbox. So lunch box is food for one child for one camp at only $2. And the reason for that is sometimes we have kids who are walking up to 10 kilometers to be able to join our our camp. And so I keep cannot walk for all those kilometers and come and sit in a class with empty stomach, they will not concentrate, they will not enjoy. So wish I could say that kids comp come is about food, fun and computers. And so every year we are trying to raise food for this kid so that we can attract them to the camp. But also we can make them enjoy the training and through that they can be also to enjoy what technology can be able to offer for them. So if you can be able to donate one lunchbox, two lunchbox, 10 lunchbox, that's that would be great. A lot of boxes, only two to $2. And the challenge has always been if you can keep our lunch, maybe Be and donate that money to as a child in rural Kenya, that will be absolutely great. So how to do that? Visit www.kidscampcamp.com there are there ways you can you can be able to donate to us. The other way is if you have any unused or underused device, or even if you can consider donating devices to us, that will be great. First and foremost, it will help us to reduce the number of students to device ratio. Right now one device saves between three to five kids. If we can have one device, having two kids, that would be great. And that means we need to invest in more devices. So if you have a laptop, if you have a computer, if you have a smartphone, or a tablet, you feel it's going to be of benefit to our program would be most definitely happy to connect with you and try to see how we can. We can we can really connect. But most important if you can come volunteer with us. We believe that scene is better Leaving. And participating is only now one of the things that you've noticed is most of volunteers, they don't just come teach. After they teach, they go back and become our strongest support. So if we have time, a day, a weekend, a holy day, please come and volunteer with us. And like I mentioned, they can't come compounded calm is an email where you can reach out to us and we can be able to tell about the volunteer program that we have. So those are some of the ways in which we can, you know, work together and create a better world for this gift in rural Africa.  Barry Luijbregts  31:57  Well, that is amazing. I think your organization is amazing, and you are doing just incredible work. Thank you so much for that. And I would urge everybody that's listening to this to take a look at the website at https://www.kidscompcamp.com/support/, and I will also put that link in the show notes. Caleb, thank you so much for your time.And see you all next time. Caleb Ndaka  31:58  Thank you so much Barry. I was pleased to share about our small journey in rural Africa and how we can make this was a better place.

What does it mean to make money!!?? That's That's a big question on a lot of our minds, right? What what does that actually mean, especially for all this going on with COVID-19 and such? Wow, small to medium businesses are just getting hammered. I'm sure a lot of you have been seeing the small to medium business loans, the SBA loans that are coming out. And obviously, some of those are even grants, if you will. What I wanted to talk about was some of the secrets that we've learned in terms of making money or earning more money in our businesses. It actually kind of goes back to some of the things that we've done with our kids. So, so quick, quick little story here. So we have a large family. We have six kids. And we basically have started each of our children with running their own business in our home. I call it the yard manager. So as each of our children were growing up, they each took turns being the art manager, and over the years well, first of all, I should probably explain why What What it means is they're responsible for getting the work done in the yard. Now, that means they have the opportunity to hire their siblings that have budgets, they'll have cost of goods sold requirements. But in the end, they ultimately have to send me an invoice. And one of the lessons they've learned over time is no invoice no money. And so there were times when I went without paying them for weeks and they'd be like, Hey, Dad, where's you know, where's the money? It'd be like, you got to send the invoice. And so they would do that and they'd get into the pattern of that and help them to start tracking and finding some independence but I noticed a pattern over many years of doing this as each child took on the role as they came into the role they are crowned you know, with with this crown, your crown is the art manager anyway, the pattern that I noticed is that is it they almost always Start projecting into the future. So as they start to see the flow of the money coming, right, and they start to get into the pattern of that, and they start collecting the data. Now, of course, the data in this little operation is very simple. It's, it's, here's the work that was done. Here's the data was done. Here's the amount and of course we come up with with what those mounts are ahead of time. And here's who was involved with it, if any, mostly it's down, but like, like I said, sometimes some of them hate doing weeding, right. So they, they want to hire that out to their siblings. But in any event, they almost always start projecting into the future because they see the money flow, and they start looking at ways to optimize it. Alright, so maybe there's another way they can figure out to get the work done faster or cheaper. And of course, like I said, they're looking at the cost of goods sold. Some of them may have even looked at patterns like, Well, okay, when it's storms or rains or whatever it might be, they realize that there is Come reduces, right? Well, it's interesting when we look at our businesses and we look start looking at the data that we have available to us, it actually becomes a critical activity to monetize our, our data, right to commercialize it. There's a couple obvious ways, of course, for companies to commercialize data. One of those is the data, of course gets collected, and it's analyzed for product development purposes, right or to make better products. And of course, that can translate into improve sales and, you know, products with higher value and so forth. That's the first sort of obvious way. The second obvious way is, of course, the data gets used to identify problems and bottlenecks in internal processes, which of course then can eliminate or improve, you know, business bottlenecks and improve the efficiency and profitability. Right. So those are two obvious ways. I saw that with our kids in the US Manage payroll. Again, I've seen it many years over over time with small to medium businesses. So I wanted to look at some examples of some companies on how they've used data like, there's a search and discovery service called Foursquare, and they sell its data to retailers. So they can optimize their outdoor advertising and online marketing to match you know, the routes that people use to navigate the city. Right. There's other groups, media companies that collect digital data on people's interest, and then they sell that to online advertisers. Certainly weather forecasting companies like freaka can, you know, they also help advertising match weather conditions? Those are certainly some examples. There's other companies and this is of course, in some cases, it's their own data, or its data there that they're intentionally collecting from others or for others. Certainly An example would be Facebook. Right. So the you know, the question is, you've got Facebook, right? Would Facebook really have paid $22 billion? And you know, for WhatsApp in 2014? If if, in fact WhatsApp didn't already have data on 600 million consumers worldwide? I mean, they probably wouldn't have done that. Right. So it wasn't the fact that what's apps revenues were massive. I think at the time, maybe they're around 10 million back in 2014, or 2013. You know, Microsoft, what did they pay over 2 billion, I think is two and a half billion. They did that for from Minecraft, and that the time Minecraft had very little actual revenues. It was the data that the Microsoft was after, which is a key valuation. So, fact of the matter is, even as a small to medium business owner, if we're not cognizant of the data and information we're tracking, we're actually leaving money on the table and now ends up hurting us rather than helping us. And in today's technology world, it actually becomes more important for us to do this to take a moment to get our data strategy together. Doesn't have to take a lot of work. We got to take some effort to do that. Well, I'm sure you've heard the phrase, hey, data is the new oil. Right? And there are some people that certainly say that, and I think that while at a surface level, you might say, Yeah, that makes sense. But there's some challenges with that with that metaphor. Turns out in reality, I think we're the oil in the metaphor, right? It's humans, right? It's the footprint, the digital footprint. The transactions that we do, the places we go, the people we see how we interact. That's actually the data. And that's actually where the money is. It's tracking that. So we have to be much more cognizant of how we of course give our data but also as business owners We need to be more cognizant of, if a consumer is sharing certain kinds of data, and they're open to that. It's important for us to also understand the opportunity that's available there as well. I think when Zuckerberg you know, Facebook when he was testifying before Congress, he explained a bit about how Facebook makes money, right? He said something about, Hey, you know, it's we're taking data in terms of what's happening, you know, where the people are clicking what they're doing, who they're interacting with. And then ultimately, they sell that, you know, off to advertisers, right? I think they do over 200 billion a year annually, right, basically, by selling our information. So to get started, it's really important that you know, as a small to medium business owners that we start with the data that we currently have, we have to look at it and say, what's our business, what's my role in the business, and then there's typically at least three things to get through. are no one is we got to look at the patterns of our data, right, we should analyze it. Look for patterns and trends that certainly present themselves. But number two, we got to look for what those patterns mean, they tell a message, right? There's some information about it. And the key to this is to figure out what's actionable and what's not. And number three is to focus on the big picture, where are we trying to go as a business? What are we trying to get done, and then use some tools to help us get there. Now one of the things that we do is we apply artificial intelligence to do that. So because after a while you realize you go mind not looking at all this information, number one, number one, right take so much time number two, the AI is proving to help see things that we can't see very easily with our eyes. And so given the fact that we believe that there's money on the table in our data, that we don't have to do a lot of extra work to go harvest it. We just got to go mind for it. Pull it out, leveraging technologies like AI helps us to do that. One of the things that we've seen that comes out of this is the ability to make better decisions, right? And so I'm not a fan of saying take AI and hand it off, and we just go blindly do whatever it says, I'm more in the line of thinking that this is augmented intelligence, use the intuition that you have as a business owner, but then augment it with what AI insights are providing. So, you know, these days, as I'd mentioned, you know, the more that we have data at our fingertips, the more important it is for us to leverage some kind of techniques that will help us to, you know, understand and get the insights from it. Now, recently, I was applying some AI for a company and was evaluating patterns and the predictions and as I reviewed it with the business owner, he made the statement simply, I had no idea I had no idea that the patterns were existing in my business, and that if I did more of this and less of that, I actually can, you know, increase my sales as well as you know, reduce some of my losses. And that's just as important to know ahead of time. You know what this is actually, uh, you know, historically and predictively a losing venture on these particular set of activities. Therefore, let's stop doing that. So whether we'll see improvements in you know, making more money or reducing losses, both are certainly benefits to our business. All right. So there you have it, the How To Make Money, it's in our data. Let's go after the data. And quite frankly, there's enough tools and services out there today, that even if we don't have the skill sets in our small to medium business, reach out to someone such as ourselves that click AI and talk to us about it or find someone else but nevertheless, go harvesting for that data. My name is Grant Larsen. Thanks for joining us. Next time, go find the money in your data. Thank you for joining grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your FREE eBook. Visit ClickAIRadio.com now!!

Transcript:Diane Dayton  This is changing the rules, a podcast about designing the life you want to live, hosted by KC Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world.KC Dempster  Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Changing the Rules. I'm KC Dempster. And here with me at Wildfire Radio Studios in beautiful downtown Woodbury, New Jersey is Ray Loewe, the self proclaimed luckiest guy in the world.Ray Loewe  You do that to rattle my chain every time though?KC Dempster  Of course I do.Ray Loewe  Okay, I am really the luckiest guy in a world. But you'll find that out later.KC Dempster  Yes, yes. So all through our lives people set rules for us, our parents, teachers, the church employers and even  municipalities and and, you know, legislation. And, for the most part, these role rules are meant well actually for all the These rules are meant to control us, but usually in a positive way, they're trying to keep us safe and help build a structure so that society can function. But as we get older, some of these rules are not relevant for us anymore. And they can actually start to restrict what we want to do as far as being creative and making a living and things of that nature. So the luckiest people in the world have recognized that and they have learned that they need to re examine the rules, and choose which ones fit them and which ones they can let go and which ones they can change. And that's what we talk about here is is we meet luckiest people in the world who are rule changers, and because they are rule changers, they are free to be themselves. So now you can talk right?Ray Loewe  Okay, read my shirt.KC Dempster  I know the rules of parentheses, they don't apply to me.Ray Loewe  That's correct. So I'm here to say I've been fed up with rules for a long time now and truth. We need rules. And in fact, we have to have rules because rules give a structure. And if you don't have structure, you don't know where you're going, right? Okay? However, the rules have to be your rules. And rules are really restrictive. And they get in my way a lot, and I do my best to get around them. And we have a guest today, who has been faced with rules and she knows what her real job is. And she figures out how to bend the rules to get her job done. Yeah, butKC Dempster  she's also a rule maker.Ray Loewe  Well, yeah, we're going to talk to her later. I don't want to give it away. So So anyway, I have been following this group of people are called the luckiest people in the world. And I've been following them for about 45 years, okay, most of my adult life, and they fascinate me, they fascinate me because these are people who have figured out what they want out of life. They know where they're going, and they just go do it. And they don't put up with a lot of junk and they get where they want to go, and they tend to be happy. And the key to these people is that they have certain mindsets. Now, let me define mindset over here because I did go the dictionary this morning. I did pull out mindsets, and a mindset is the established set of attitudes held by somebody. Okay, so attitudes but more important it was talking about why is a mindset important over here. And it's because the mindset frame a person's self confidence. Whoo. And and you know, if you think about it, there are a whole lot of mindsets out there and, and none of them are really wrong. They they're just different and and you have to figure out which are yours. So let me give a classic one real quickly and then then I'll be quiet. But there's always been this concept of Do you believe that life is full of scarcities or life is full of abundance. And you know, we all know things are getting scarce. You know, you run out of oil, you run out of gas or water, you run out of clean air, you run out of all of these kinds of things. Now, there are people who take that really direly seriously, you know, they were going to run out, we've got to conserve, no, we can't do anything. And there are other people who look at this thing. And they say, yeah, we know that's going on. But we have faith that somebody is going to invent something that's going to replenish this. So you know, we used to have coal, and we're running out of coal and somebody found oil, and then we're running out of oil. Somebody even invented electricity. And now we have solar. And I think the people who have the positive mindsets, have these mindsets that allow them to think positively and they feel better. And the luckiest people in the world tend to have these and we're going to focus on three of those today. Okay, our guest has been affected. By rules, you're correct. She's a teacher. So she's a mind a rule setter, okay? However, she gets rules thrown at her too. And she got hit with some really big ones. And one day there was a classroom the next day there wasn't a classroom and what do they do? Okay. The second thing is that another mindset is that the people who I think are the luckiest people in the world, always find a positive solution to anything, you know, you could hide, you can hide under the bed, not get up in the morning, but other people hide under the bed for a short time. And and and then they get up and they start moving ahead. They know what they want to accomplish, and they get around these rules. And And the final one is they take these things and they put it into a plan and they figure out how they're going to move forward with it. And our guest today, right after our short break that we're going to take is on is a master of this. So Taylor Do your break thing.Diane Dayton  You're listening to changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.Ray Loewe  Welcome back. Everybody knows the best breaks.KC Dempster  Yeah, but we have to decide who's going to talk first when we come back.Ray Loewe  That's when we have a moment of silence. Right. That's good now, otherwise, we both come on at the same time.KC Dempster  That's right. Well, I'm gonna defer to you. Right, go ahead.Ray Loewe  Okay. So we have with us, Judy Shaner. Now Judy, I idolize Judy, okay, she's a teacher. I have friends that tell me she is probably the best teacher in the whole world. Or maybe the second best, maybe, maybe we need to leave a room to aspire a little higher.KC Dempster  You always leave room for improvement.Ray Loewe  But she's a pure educator and and she loves teaching and she's in that classroom and She makes things happen. And she takes responsibility for the kids in her classroom and she's concerned about them. Mm hmm. So, Judy, welcome to Changing the Rules.Judy Shaner  Thank you. I'm excited to be here.Ray Loewe  Good. Well, you're excited now.Judy Shaner  See how this goes.KC Dempster  We'll rake you over the coals?Judy Shaner  I'm ready.Ray Loewe  Okay, so, a little while ago, we had this thing called the classroom. Right. And you went to school every day? At least on a weekdays? Yes. And you had a bunch of kids show up in your classroom? Correct. And you taught them something? What are you teaching?Judy Shaner  I teach honors anatomy and physiology and I teach honors biology for 35 years.Ray Loewe  Okay, so how many kids did you have show up in your classroom?Judy Shaner  Usually about 24 in science because we do labs, so we can't most classes are 30 but for me, it's 24.Ray Loewe  Right. Okay, so here you are. And then we had this magic day. I don't even remember what day it was. IKC Dempster  believe it was March 14.Judy Shaner  March 16KC Dempster  Yeah, well, that was in the Monday. Right, right. Yeah. 14th was Saturday.Ray Loewe  Okay, so March 16 showed up and all of a sudden you had orders Don't go. Don't go to class. Right? Correct. And your kids had orders don't go to class.Judy Shaner  We went to school on the 16th, which was the day we're supposed to be going on our senior trip, which I'm the Senior Advisor for, and we could not do that. And we also had to no longer come to school.Ray Loewe  Okay. And, but the but the problem didn't go away, did it? I mean, you still have to teach kids.Judy Shaner  Correct.Ray Loewe  I guess you could use this as an excuse and hide and say, Well, I guess I can't teach kids anymore.Judy Shaner  That's definitely not me, though.Ray Loewe  Yeah. And I think that's the differentiator between people that I believe are the luckiest people in the world. They take this seriously. So you got hit. With this bombshell.Judy Shaner  We actually happened about three weeks before that, where we had a faculty meeting and our superintendent said, Listen, we have to start getting some plans ready in case we can't come to school. If you spend more than five minutes in the shower thinking about this. I'm going to fire you. That's how unrealistic. This was everybody. Yeah. About a week later, we were given "Oh, no, you have to make up two weeks worth of worksheets for these students." Wow. And then on the 16th, it was Oh, no, you have to come up with three weeks of worksheets. We're not sure when we're going to be able to go back.Ray Loewe  what are these work? How do you get worksheets to kids?Judy ShanerWell, school, obviously this is we had to run them off. We were supposed to start some type of online classroom, but they were saying was supposed to be review, which for me, I don't have worksheets for anatomy and biology. So I knew that wasn't going to work for me. So I had to make a different plan. And right away, I knew that I didn't have three weeks of review worksheets, and maybe in math, you could do that. But for something like my subject, I couldn't do that.Ray LoeweOkay, so here we are. We got hit with a change in the rules. Now, this isn't where you got to change the rules necessarily. But somebody came up with a rule and I think you probably agree that in general rule is pretty good. I mean, nobody wanted to catch this stuff that's going onKC Dempster  And schools are breeding grounds andRay Loewe  yeah, you don't you don't want to be caught in an environment where you're likely to either catches or be response. Correct. So we had a good rule.Judy Shaner  At first I thought it was ridiculous because I didn't think it could possibly be true. I up until that weekend still said, No, we're going on the senior trip. We're going to Florida. This is crazy. This isn't real. And then over that weekend, it became real realKC Dempster  Yeah, that's that river in Africa called denial.Ray Loewe  I saw that but they dropped the D must have been an Egyptian spell. So So anyway, we had this thing and no, you had to figure out how to do this and I got the impression that first of all, you weren't happy with just worksheets, right? I could never do so what what did you do?Judy Shaner  I decided to actually flip the classroom and I bought an AI a What do you call it? The tripod, I bought a tripod and hooked up my phone to it and I started doing my notes as if I were running on the classroom board but on the paper and I started doing my lectures that way and videotape in my lectures so that they didn't miss the curriculum. Right they watched me doing the videos and doing the workRay Loewe  that's a pretty sneaky way to become a movie star.Judy Shaner  Well, I was my face was not on it was much like this paper. Yeah. AndKC Dempster  so so they didn't have obviously your school system didn't have a video conferencing structure ready for you?Judy Shaner  No, no, and I don't know that we've haven't yet really um there are so many new things out there and we'll see where it goes. But most people were just doing the worksheet type thing and I just knew that I couldn't get my curriculum across and students are going to be interested in that for very long sir out more than three weeks. So I just started video.KC Dempster  So did you mail the email them the video? How did they see you?Judy Shaner  We have a thing called Google Classroom Okay, you can upload it onto Google classroom and then they can watch it throughout Google class. Yeah,KC Dempster  kind of like a YouTube thing.Ray Loewe  Yeah. Kind of like that. Okay. Okay, so so you got hit with this problem and you came up with your video solution, which was a temporary solution, I think for you. And and and now we start looking ahead a little bit. So you're telling me I think that the class the buses are going to be heavily restricted, or at least maybe, right?Judy Shaner  The if you look at that, the guidelines, you have to have six feet and you have to have a mask on. And so the most that can fit in the bus is 12 students. So bringing just 12 students school, how long is that going to take? And it's going to be really restrictive.Ray Loewe  Yeah. So how, how many kids normally are on our bus?Judy Shaner  45.Ray Loewe  So you're down to a third, right? Okay, or less than less than that. Okay. All right, and and then what's going to happen to classrooms,Judy Shaner  so it's funny, I'm on a school climate committee, so we went in and measured classrooms also. So it's Because you have to start thinking, Well, what are we going to do now? How are we going to accomplish this? The most that can fit in the classroom is from between 12 and 14. So we're looking at half at the most Wow, in the classrooms.Ray Loewe  Okay, so So what's going to happen, you're going to all of a sudden, double the number of teachers so that you can handle these or weJudy Shaner  know that can't happen.Ray Loewe  So, so Okay, so what's the creative approach? What What are you? And I know this is all still on the drawing board right on place yet, but but you know, what, what's the thinking? What? LikeJudy Shaner  we're kicking a lot of ideas around that we have a hybrid method in our mind. I know some people are pushing for like an A B schedule where the students would come twice a week and one week would be where you'd produce you'd flip the classroom produce the videos on all of them. I feel that that's too many students don't, I don't think it'd be feasible for us to handle 800 students in a building, because we have 1500 and 50 plus the teachers. I still think an A B won't work. I think more of an ABCD Maybe you only see them once a week. And the rest of the time would be online where you're teaching by way of videos. So when they come in the classroom, you would be doing the assessment, you would be doing the lab, you would be doing the extra help the critical thinking problems, and then they would have to do the online, right. The other days, right. So that's, that's some of the options too.Ray Loewe  So I think this has some interesting strategic byproducts do use a word here. Okay. So so one of the things that's going to happen is at least the current vision that you had, is kids are going to be home a good number of days, and they're going to be taught by video and buy books and buy a lot of self study. Right? Yes. Okay. And I guess the benefit to those kids is, if you don't want to go to school, you don't have to go to school, right.Judy Shaner  I think there gonna be a lot of parents that make that up option to Yes, okay. And with this option, you have teachers, they're going to be staying home, perhaps doing all online. that frees up the classroom to spread the number of students out even more, right, which is part of the options too, that we could look at.Ray Loewe  And so so if I were a student, I'd be going to school once a week, maybe twice a week. Correct. So I might actually look forward to going to school would notJudy Shaner  this. It's so funny, because that's what happened with all this. everybody's like, Oh, I hate school. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. But they realize how much they love it. How much you love the socialization, how much you love the organization, that discipline of it all? That is a positive that came out of all this students really realize, Oh, I really do love school. Yeah, it's so cool.Ray Loewe  Yeah, that's the best thing to do is take something people don't show don't particularly like take it away from all men wanted again, and they are just dying to come back.Okay, so so you're visualizing, let me just get this straight, okay, that your job is going to be first of all, you're going to have to do a whole lot of really good lesson planning. Because you're going to have to try and make it as exciting and as interesting as you can To encourage self study, right? And what do you do with kids that don't learn that way? I mean, I think some kids would love to self study and others are just gonna look for every excuse in the world never do anything, IJudy Shaner  think you're gonna have to because it has to be a hybrid method, I think you're gonna have to also have those meetings with them. Those zoom meetings where they get accountability, you see them face to face, and they realize, alright, there is somebody behind all of this work, and I need to do it because they're going to tell me I have to do it. And they want the grade. I don't have as much problem because I've, you know, honor students, right? I have very motivated students, I'm teaching anatomy, they want to learn everything. That's the scary part for me is these guys want to go into the medical field, they want to be doctors, they want to get everything they can from me. So I'm lucky that way. The my colleagues that are teaching the lower level students, the accountability is going to be more difficult. It's going to be hard to get them to buy into something where they're staying home and doing it on their own.Ray Loewe  Right. So how much of this do you think is actually going to carry on into the future? I mean, we we know it's probably going to carry on at least for a year. Until We have a vaccine and everything else. But do you see a change in the way the classroom is gonna be run?Judy Shaner  I think it's gonna be very useful for students that miss class. Very useful for students that are homeschooled that have school phobia and stress levels and stuff like that. I think that will it will continue to use for that. I think it's an awesome thing. If students want to look at the videos, I'm not sure and they're a little bit behind. Maybe they look at the videos as supplemental at home. Plus with the teacher, I think it'll be all of that will be something you've produced now that you can use. So I think that will be beneficial.KC Dempster  Yeah. I could have used that in elementary school. I was sick on the day they taught ratios and I never got it right. Never Well, I think I won't tell you how old I am. But that was a long time ago.Judy Shaner  If you Miss my type of class. They're really behind right now. There's gonna be videos out there.Ray Loewe  Watch it. I think it's exciting because because all of a sudden, you know, it just sets a different stage so kids that weren't excited about about school, are now going to get a chance to get excited about school again. Kids who can learn on their own are going to have the opportunity to learn faster with their own routineJudy Shaner  Do you knowhow much I'm learning now. Oh my gosh, the technology, there's so many cool things like there's something called ParaDeck where you can videotape and embed your questions in there. Now, you know, the kids are watching the video, because they have to answer the questions embedded in there. It's, I'm learning so much. Well, it's awesome.Ray Loewe  You know, believe it or not, Judy, we're at the end of our time. And you know, I would I want to do is thank you for your vision of education. And I think that all these parents and grandparents are home, they're worried about their kids and their grandchildren are going to understand that there are people out there who actually attacking this problem and are coming up with interesting solutions that are not only going to keep education going, but I think in the long run, it's going to improve it a lot. And, Judy, I have to tell you why you are one of the luckiest people in the world may have those criteria and you have the mindsets to do these kinds of things. And Thank you for being out there and teaching our kids.Judy Shaner  Thank you.Ray Loewe  So yeah, KC I think we take a really quick break here and then we can close upDiane Dayton  You're listening to changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.KC Dempster  Okay, welcome back everybody and, you know, Ray throws this term, luckiest people in the world around pretty frequently. And we'd like to make the point that the luckiest people in the world aren't born lucky. But they do live exciting and fulfilling lives as you can tell by the the interview that we just had. And it's because they make the commitment to learn how to be lucky. And it's not enough to for it to be a one time commitment. It's a it's an ongoing exercise and commitment, where you do get these changes and challenges thrown at you and you have to adapt. And that's what the luckiest people in the world do. They learn to adapt and they make work for them.Ray Loewe  Yeah. And and what they do is they design their own long lives, and they don't let things get in the way. Right. Okay. And I think that's probably one of the the most notable things that we've found by talking with Judy Shaner, a teacher of biology and mathematics and all these great things to to our AP students who really want to get into medical school. And and, Judy, thanks for being here. And thanks, most importantly for being you.KC Dempster  Thank you. Right. And I just want to remind everybody, we have a brand new website. It's www dot the luckiest people in the world.com. Please go visit it. And, you know, let us know what you think of it.Ray Loewe  And we'll see you next week.Diane Dayton  Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a podcast designed to help you in your life the way you want, and give you what you need to make it happen. Join us in two weeks for our next exciting topic on changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world. 

Join me as I catch up with my coaching friend Steven Mills. Steven & I spent quite a bit of time together a couple of years back as I was beginning to coach and he was a coaches coach... After catching up with him, I felt I could detect a bit of a Heroes Journey... a spiritual tale as it were within him and invited him to share on this podcast. I am a loving father to my daughter Evanna; I was born in Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland and live in Glasgow, Scotland today.Ok a little bit about me then, at the young age of 16 I joined the British Army in 1998 and served for six years with two operational tours of Iraq and Kosovo. I left in 2004 to begin my transition back into civilian life. This transition was challenging for me, and in the years that followed, I resorted to alcoholism and anti-depressants, Living from a place of stress and Anxiety, Failed relationships, jumping from job to job, never really settling down or finding peace. I suppressed a lot of childhood trauma that would bite me in the bum later in life that stemmed from emotional neglect, physical and verbal abuse. This was one of the main reasons I joined the forces to run away from this, this wasn’t the answer as I found out the hard way later in life. The transition was a real rollercoaster ride for me, without the support I was used to in the army, life had its challenges, with uncertainty and no purpose to where my life was heading. I got lost in a trail of destruction which impacted my health, finances, relationships with friends and family and I had no hope and a feeling of emptiness and hurt. Eight years of going round in circles, frustration, feeling useless, no peace and continuously busy, destroying a lot of relationships, emotional and spiritual health issues, and much more I decided to enough was enough, it was time for a change. Through this process, I have gained so many transformational insights into destructive patterns of not only my behaviors, habits, attitudes, and beliefs but of others around me too. This has been an ongoing journey. Moving beyond this season of life influenced me to evaluate my future, and take this vision for my life today, to facilitate and coach as many people who were in my position as I am physically possible to overcome the common fears, blockages, limitations in order to heal and have a transformation in your life as I have, if I can do it, so can you. Brandon Handley 0:02 4321 Hey there. This is Brandon Handley. I am on with Steven Mills, who's a coach and mentor, men's life coach, trauma recovery coach, online trainer, who's currently just recently founded. Core coaching business Academy is also the founder of social enterprise core connections, coaching and training. He's a experienced men's coach. And he's got over seven years experience in the coaching a personal development industry. He's a loving father. He's from Scotland, I don't even know how to pronounce where you're from. So I didn't even try except for Glasgow, which, you know, that's where you are right now. joined the military at the young age of 16. And you serve for six years there, two operational tours of Iraq and Kosovo. And this is when you left in 2004 To begin a transaction, transit efficient back into civilian life, and you were kind of that was kind of a challenge, from what I understand he resorted to alcoholism and depressants, living in a place of stress and anxiety. Not really being able to settle down and kind of seems like that stemmed from emotional, black, physical and verbal abuse. And and, you know, throughout all this, you know, you started to find your own path, right, you start to find your own path and you hooked on to coaching and others you've over the years, you know, I know you're passionate about coaching, that's how you and I met you, you helped build the coaching community, you've been a mentor and a trainer to that and more recently, as you and I reconnected, you told me that you know, you've gone through and I hope this is okay to share, because I know I didn't ask, but you know, you've had some more therapy over the past year. Seems like you may have had some kind of struggles in, in getting past this kind of like invisible barrier threshold, right that you felt like something was holding you back. And you spent some time work more time work on yourself. And a Pac Man, it seems with a fierceness as it were, as I like to say, right. So, you know, welcome. Thanks, Steven, for coming on today. And thanks for reaching out to me just to say, Hey, I'm sure you probably didn't have a podcast in mind when you said hey, Brandon, what's going on? But after hearing your story, I felt like it was something that fit with what we're doing here. Well, what I love to do is I love to start these off with like, you know, one or two things right? What is something that I can help you celebrate today? Or you know, what is is like spiritual dope, right? Like is the name of the podcast so what's like, your most recent spiritual high if you could qualify? Steven Mills 3:00 And then probably place off NRP. So what's took about our journey, it took a lot of years to find that went around in circles and, you know, kept living and old patterns and dealing with childhood trauma, which was overpowered, and on me it's like a dark cloud over my head. And there was a lot of toxic shame in there that I used to live by. And I call them sub hub and a lot of self pity parties. So from going through that journey of healing from trauma, over a 12 month period, and really get into the trenches and do and be able to look the past and a deeper level than I have ever done before. And I was able to find that place off and a piece. So I guess that in our piece, you know, call it spirituality, call it whatever faith in that place at peace. I think we all want to find that in life. We all want to find that inner peace Inner Peace Center brings so much Joy brings so much, you know, you feel that sense of you're okay, you're settled yet there's no you don't have to worry about the future. You don't have to think about the back of the past too much, but actually just loving more and know if you like and I know that's probably a cliche to say loving on the note but actually, it's achievable. And it takes a lot of work by took me a lot of work to get there. But knowing the work of dead you know, I would always encourage anyone out there that's maybe going through things from the past as to really engage with that and be able to look at because you have a choice right or look at or we look away, we can look away and I for years, I looked away I denied I suppressed I didn't really address it properly. And then it came out like a volcano feel like it was like a volcano effect that just blew up. And just like fireworks go all over the place with Emma was my favorite Whole body. So finding that inner peace has been a big revelation for me. And it's allowed me to slow down. And everything I do know, because I believe slowing down as the best slowing down solves most problems. If we're able to find a place and a peace and slow down in life, we're able to see things from a different perspective. And we become more patient and much more welcomed set of choices. And that's been a big revelation for me a big breakthrough moment. I feel like a big aha moment. It's really changed my my life and many ways. And this allowed me just to follow my intuition, follow my gut and follow what's what I'm truly passionate about and, and find my purpose if that's what you want to call it. Your mission in life, your vision, all these things. So yeah. Brandon Handley 5:53 man you got you got a lot in there, right. One of the things a few of the things that that you've gotten, there is The acceptance of you know what I think a lot of people call the shadow self, right? Or the darkness in themselves, or whatever you want to call it. But you know, by facing that pain instead of and welcoming it and seeing what it had to teach you, in your life sounds like one of the things that you've done there. And it also sounds like you know, the whole being the now thing. While it may sound cliche, it's very much so when the student is ready, the master will appear right? And that's when all of a sudden, it sounds like you're finding all these cliches have some place in reality, and you're like, man, I really did I just did I just say being the now did I just say find inner peace and everything will be okay. Yeah, I did. And the other part in there too is when you find here, those you Hear that chirping in the background? I've got chickens in my bathroom. Who knew that? Unknown Speaker 7:09 little chicks in there? Yeah. Brandon Handley 7:11 I always make fun of myself to those five chicks in my bathroom, but not what you're thinking. Um, and then, and then when, you know, you find that inner peace and this is a line that I heard from Bob Proctor finally, finally made some sense. It was like, I don't need to slow down. Unknown Speaker 7:30 I need to calm down. Brandon Handley 7:32 Right? I don't need to be excited because when something's excited that that's an indicator of your molech Moloch. You know, molecular level, bouncing around too fast. This excited. There's lots of energy there, but it's not focused energy. Right. And it's not calm and to your point, thoughtful energy, you know when you can pause in that intercom if you're not worried or thinking about yesterday and if you're not concerned, worried about tomorrow, you can focus on today and what's right Unknown Speaker 8:04 in front of you. Brandon Handley 8:08 In a sense of calm, right, like you said, Take a breath, think about what's right in this situation, think about what you should do right here and now versus this kind of react. And like I said, this excited motion, this excited motion says what? Oh, that's there. We got to go do this. This is what I know to do. We're gonna hop right to it. Unknown Speaker 8:29 Right, that's not it. Brandon Handley 8:31 And that's what you found. So I love it, man. That's, that's something to celebrate, for sure. And I think that that's also where we've, I'm sure heard it all throughout time while you're growing up, you know, you're the sum of all the choices that you make. Right? And, and you see now the power of choice. The power of choice is in that call moment that you're talking about. Got that all kind of sum it up all right for you my caption. Steven Mills 9:04 Choice is quite a big thing. I mean, we all have, we all have choice choices every day. And certainly we make and how we live our lives and what we do as a career, what we do in relationships, we all have a choice to respond in a way that's, you know, whatever way you want to respond and respond from a place of fear or we can respond from a place of love. We can respond from a place of, you know, calmness, whereas more well considered, or we can respond emotionally and a reaction. And it's just, you know, having that knowing that we've got that free will to choose how we live is very important. And it's only through my experience of healing, that I found a place to choose more effectively. The biggest thing I learned through healing from trauma was you to feel as real before you suppress all the feelings of denial, but if you can set with these feelings as hard as they may be It's, it's the best way to heal as I lower it just to be and to release because emotions, emotions need to move. They're not they're not they're just temporary they have to move. You know, if you think of emotions come from a Latin word emotive, you know, as moving as a movement, emotions need to move. And a lot of us struggle with dealing with the hard emotions, the the tension, the shoulders, the butterflies, the stomach, the anxiety that may come through pain. And there's one of the biggest things I had to learn it was just stuff set, still allow it to come and go, allow it just to be and release it through different ways like breathing. I used to write about a lot. So I journal I write a lot about my domain recovery. I would write a lot of it and release it through writing, how I was feeling because a lot of us don't really engage with our definite emotions, a lot of us tend to only know a few, a handful of emotions, but actually, if you look at not the definitely, I have all the different emotions, that is, it's probably 50 4050 emotions, that we can all go through another and it's been aware of all them. And it's allowing them to come into your life and leave your life and we're, you know, we can react emotionally or we could just set with them. And his biggest thing out loud was just, I like the phrase to feel as real, to feel as real and life to just set with the feelings, no matter how hard to make beat do that. And that took a lot of practice for me. It took a lot of practice. And as I was going through my healing journey, because when you start delving into this, the dark shadow as you may call it, Brandon and we start looking into, you know, what's really going on deep down and and maybe some past, you know, trauma that really has hard it can be definitely To face up to them and that's where trauma can drive that addictions it can drive you know, relationship behaviors, it can, you know, just behaviors that maybe not, you know, healthy in a relationship it can drive all sorts of different behavior or patterns. And and unless we're in a weird on, we're never able to address them fully and actually be mindful of how we have been for our last domain for some of their patterns or habits and we have come from because these patterns and habits and sometimes creep up on us and be unhealthy but it could come from past traumas and and this is why I'm really passionate about trauma awareness and helping people with trauma and relationships because, you know, economically be that partner that's where someone with trauma doesn't see what the you know, the where these behaviors are coming from. They just actually react to the behavior and start Should I that's not good. I'm you. You've just been angry to me for Reason, but the anger could be coming from past arch. You know, the anger comes from past hearts really, I mean, behind anger, there's always pain. Brandon Handley 13:10 So I believe 100% 100%. So again, you know, a lot a lot in there. Right. And I think that to hit it off with what you've discovered is something that I would assert is that Western civilization, you know, European civilization has been taught very poorly about their emotions, which is something that sounds like you found, right? You said you knew of like, maybe four or five, and it's like, all right, well, you've come across another 30 or 50. Right, and you're journaling and you're dealing with them and you're sitting with them and you're learning about your emotions. What are something you know, what are some other tools that you know, how did you how did you learn? You know, what would you tell me if I wanted to learn What these other 25 to 45 emotions are that I may not be aware about right. And then what are some other tools? You talked about journaling, right? As one of your big ones, what are some other tools that I can use to identify and deal with my emotions? And again, learn what some of these other ones are? Because I know anger. I mean, right? Like, How old's your daughter? Six, six. So you've probably watched it the Disney one right? Inside Out, have you watched it? All right. So I mean, those are like those, like the five emotions we know. We know like, anger, joy, happy, you know, sadness. And then like, you know, the the the other guy, right? So yeah, walk us through a little bit of that, right? We're learning Steven Mills 14:46 about having the art of, I call it the art of curiosity. So it's been it's always it's always been curious of what's going on. Not you know, not just mentally but physically. How is the emotions of affect us physically as well as mentally? Because a lot of us focus on that just a reaction more than I'm gonna interrupt just one sec. Brandon Handley 15:08 I'm going to as what would you because I see I see a pathway going down right now how about what if I asked you this question What about how are you teaching your daughter to identify emotions and deal with them when she said she went, which when she grows up she's able to to do what your it took you 30 some odd years to do. Right? How would you teach her to Steven Mills 15:31 teach her the moment as I am? Get off to draw how she's feeling? I get to draw and expressions of how do you feel a foreigner? How do you feel right now? Can you draw me an emoji? Or can you draw me a sample emojis and can be okay, can you also draw me a picture of how you're feeling right now? And also teacher to it's okay to cry. It's okay to let your emotions out and the best wishes Sometimes it's okay to cry. Daddy sometimes cries. And it's okay. I mean, a lot of us don't like to admit, we cry, especially men, we don't like to admit that we have, we would like to see it be seen that we've got all together. But actually, if we allow it just the floor, sometimes the best release of emotions is through trial through 11. The tears to flow aluminum f meet hard not to change suppress them, but just allow them to flow. It's like a rubber bashes canal here, right? I fit in a river, the lava flows, right. Yeah. So So Brandon Handley 16:32 yeah, a big part of it, though, is again going back to kind of like that Western civilization part is that, you know, we've been taught to control our emotions. Right. And as especially as men control your emotions, you know, don't let your emotions run you. Yeah, which is true, right, which is where we get to this point in kind of your stories set with your emotions, understand your emotions. make a conscious choice off of your emotions, don't react. Tear emotions, which is very hard to deliver to a young child because again we hear Don't let your emotions control you which translates to a child is an adult so your emotion so it sounds to me like you're you're you're you're helping her to identify them. You're helping her to allow her to express them. You know, tears is one way art is another right How can you translate, translate those emotions, identify them and share them. Awesome. I love that. Yeah, a little bit more. Go ahead. Sorry. Unknown Speaker 17:35 Yeah, interrupt. Steven Mills 17:36 No, no, it's cool as cool as you know, emotions are right and society we're not taught how to express them. We you know, and a lot of time has grown men don't try comes to me and I you know, man up and get yourself together. We you know, all these phases talk to young men and you know, don't you can't we you know, you can't be seen to cry because that's, you'd actually be shown a weakness but See it. The opposite is that's the strength as a strength to show your weaknesses. It's a strength to show your vulnerability at times. And it's a sense of speech was meant to be a vulnerable, and sometimes to show that we have pain and allow the tears to flow, because it's much more powerful and showing the vulnerabilities. Now, teaching children that as I feel is really important for white parents. I'll say stop crying, don't cry, just get on with it. Come on, yeah, you'll be fine. You, but sometimes it's about being patient. And, you know, 11 the children just to, to kick off and allow them to be angry. Because if you try and stop lying God, you're gonna, you're gonna just flare even more. Whereas if you just allow it to, I, you know, and it's about, I see that you're angry. I see that you're frustrated, and that's okay. Because in life, sometimes we get frustrated and we get angry and I'm not going to hold against you. Allow it to just release it, allow it to come out. Because of you, there's another statement I grew up with, and that was, children should, you know, shouldn't be heard, should be seen but not heard. And something's allowing children to be held by allowing them to release that anger, or at least start excitement, release of tears. And it's about just helping them become aware of that. as we as we go. because more people, more children become aware of their emotions, the better they're going to be equipped going in the adulthood. When disappointments come when things come that show up in life that causes on pain. After then aware of what's called going on, then there's no better place to respond, and then to deal with it. And this helps with self care. And it helps with managing expectations as the drawn toddlerhood so for me, not at score, export and just explore your emotions be widdle Take a look at you know, the stuff that works as I've said, there's frustration, there's anger, I'm happy and fulfilled. I, you know, I'm agitated. I, there's definitely words and there's different ways we can describe how our emotions put the quotes gone and our physical body what's going on with their emotions mentally, what's going on, Anders, the more we can slow. This is our lambda the last 18 months and it's the more we can just be patient and show yourself that bat grace and self compassion, compassion as an important ingredients when it comes to and keeping up you know, being being okay with ourselves and being okay with our own skin. And part of my healing journey was shown that compassion because as I see a lot of machine, and when shames around us like a dark cloud over here, but if you start being compassionate to the max, and that's the antidote for shame and compassion, as something again, we're not really shown too much when we're growing up. We're not sure how to be that sure sure that self compassion, you know, love yourself became to yourself that self kindness because a lot of think all of us Eagle, no it's not about Eagle it's about more about forget about the eagle. It's about fetal kidney on skin being your ability to love yourself and show yourself that kindness and forgiveness even when you make a mistake. But some kids grew up trying to be perfect because their kids the parents have these expectations on them. That's just jackal with expectations check with the mom to be perfect it's about allowing them to show that it's okay to make mistakes. So kill them and show that self coke self compassion is something that I know I love to help out with when I'm coaching and when I'm helping them find that place to show themselves that back crease and just come on. Tricia flat little bit several passionate because the more we can learn that Assaf compassion, because as an art, and it's something we need to practice, because we're a lot of people are showing this growing up to short self compassion. So it's almost like unlearning what was learned as grown up? Brandon Handley 22:14 And you know, that's 100% 100% Steven Mills 22:17 the Unknown Speaker 22:19 year it looked Brandon Handley 22:19 at the idea of that self compassion. The idea of learning that again for yourself, like you just said there at the end to having to unlearn everything that you you learned while you're growing up is something that you know, Alan Watts talks to quite a bit not sure if you ever listen to him, just kind of a beatnik type, you know, back in the day talking about different comparative religions, right. But he talks about it in the sense of like salted meat, right, you know, you salt it to cure it, but like before you can eat it, you have to put it in the water and desalinate it, right. You have to, you have to, you have to make it so that it can be Music but uh, you know, that's what I think of, you know, when you say that line, right? Just because that was kind of the first time I'd ever really understood or heard it. You also talk about, like, you know, look, the grace, right? To me, that's a super powerful word. Because again, we talked before we got started here, the kind of the gist of this is, you know, kind of the, you know, the spirituality, inner sense of self right. And when you look up the word grace, that's the, I think called, like, divine power. Right? And, and really, divinity is again, talks about the inside of you what's inside of you, right? That's divine, who you are, is divine. And when you accept like divine, when you accept grace, who you're accepting of power that, you know, it's just like, allows you to be in that place that you've been talking about that, that gets part of what gives you that Steven Mills 23:59 sense of calm. Brandon Handley 24:00 The sense of inner peace that's grace when you when you discover that for yourself that's man you can you can't I mean, I haven't tried but you could walk on water, that kind of thing, right i mean that's the kind of thing we're talking about. And and it really seems to me like you found it right seems to me like you found this space and you're really leaning into it. Unknown Speaker 24:22 And, and you're using it Brandon Handley 24:25 to fuel your life and your success and your career right now with your next coaching place, right and I've got it right here in front of me too, is like, you aim to help people discover their peace, so they can find their passion and purpose so they can fulfill their life goals and dreams. Right now, I would go so far as to say what you're trying to do. You know, this is and this is again, my perspective kind of coming from the coaching space as well is you're trying to Find people how to become aware of their own emotions, how they can find that grace within themselves. So they can, you know, accept themselves as who they are. And you talk about, you know, teaching kids how to accept themselves at an early age, as you and I are doing as fathers. I know that my son, and I think that, you know, they look at numbers like he'll come home and he'll say, I only got five wrong. I'm like, Well, how many did you get? Right? Tell me how many you got? Right, right. Let's celebrate your wins, man. It's okay to celebrate. You know, you got 15 right? That's awesome, dude. It's awesome. I always break down like, I'll break down a baseball batting average form, right? I'm not sure how big you are and American baseball over there. But if you if your batting average is 25% Unknown Speaker 25:46 you're actually not bad. Brandon Handley 25:48 That's pretty good. You get to 35% journalist, a hero, okay. And so it's really it's not about those numbers. It's about how you feel about what you've done. Did you bring it? Did you bring your best game? Did you did you prepare yourself for for this particular situation? And I'll even loop in jujitsu with him too because he's in Jiu Jitsu and I'll say, all right, well, you know, you learn more from your losses than you do from your wins because you know, your wins this mean that like you, you may train a little bit more than the other guy. But if you lose, you can see where your deficiencies are, you can see what you need to work on. Right But, but come out of there being strong, like you're saying, show yourself compassion, and learn, learn about all of that, that you can. And I think that sounds to me, too, like you're teaching your daughter to these things, right? You're teaching them as you're learning them to do Am I getting? Am I getting this all right for you? Or am I missing anything? Steven Mills 26:51 Yeah, yeah, that's it. I mean, Greece as powerful graces really, you know, when you've got grace that takes away any guilt Grace is the antidote to guilt here. If you say Brandon Handley 27:03 that's right, you said the antidote, the antidote, the antidote, hey, I will not interrupt the antidote to shame, right was compassion, right? I love that line man, the antidote. I love that line. So I mean, that's gonna be, that's gonna be a tweet, you just wait for that one. Steven Mills 27:18 Cool, that's fine. You're getting a ticket ticket that said this was before. And, and grace is added to it to go. Because when you've got grace, there's no room for guilt, when you're able to just show yourself that that forgiveness for grace. Grace for me means that you're forgiven towards yourself, and Jana placed off, not being hard on yourself. You have been better on your shelf and grace just once famously, is a great ingredients that works well with compassion. And then if you've got grace and compassion, then it's only going to bring patience. You're able to show much more patience with others, you're able to show much, much more grace with a lot of because you've given it to yourself. And when you're in that place of patience, and you've noticed fixations, then you have not attached to the outcomes, all the results in your life tell you not to their results, and when you're not attached to the outcomes and results, and not bring space. Again, spiritual. No, Brandon Handley 28:14 absolutely. I mean, I mean, that's, that's the whole gist of it, right? Like, it's and you know, that talks to Buddhism, right? To me it talks to Buddhism. See, it's the, the attachment to the desired outcomes. Right? That's right, that brings suffering, right, because you get to the point of, well, it's got to turn out this way. And if it doesn't turn out this way, I'm gonna be pissed and what was me life's Right. Yeah. What you're saying though, is let go of those outcomes. Have some faith in it? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Man, there's a little bit of there's a little bit of there's a little bit of spirituality in that. Let's talk about, let's talk about, you know, this past. It says you said about 18 months about therapy. I want to talk a little bit a bit about The difference between especially you being a coach a little bit of difference between what therapy is and and what coaching is right and and and, you know, kind of when to use both. Steven Mills 29:16 So therapy for me, I was definitely journey altogether and I learned a lot along the process and for me, it was a longer process than I would normally find coaching. So for me therapy as delving a lot into, you know, a lot of that deeper work. So, you know, not seeing the course and capable deep part but for therapy depends on what kind of therapy you go down. There's different tapes and different modalities, but for me therapy is about really jumping into the trench and delving into some of the past traumas that maybe affect who we are today. And and if you're not aware of this, it could really check out Cochin another hand a lot of it as progress. It's about setting goals and moving forward in your life coaching, you may not even get past this much. But if you can find a hybrid of coaching and therapy together, then you're finding the sweet spot. So a lot of the work I'm doing with trauma recovery coaching, as a hybrid between coaching and therapy. So as as given, it's been therapeutic, and it's so low in space and given silence and less than, but at the same time asking the right questions that allows the individual to explore. So for me therapy was, it was an eye opener I learned so much about myself, I said, I learned so much about my behaviors, about habits and patterns turned up in my life today. And I learned more about toxic shame hoshin was overshadowing everything I've done in my life and allow around our wars for others. And how are we keep everyone that that's obviously good at keeping people at arm's length And not allowing them and to affect my emotions are not alone. They're meant to. So I was very, I struggled to show up and vulnerable at times. And it was me learning how to be vulnerable and actually be completely honest, on a heart level, rather than my head level, just trying to tell people where they want to hear or so I showed up more vulnerable than I've ever done in my life. No therapy. At that age, the route I went was CRM, which is like compare comprehensive resource model. And it's about it's almost like there's about Shimano humanism and now, and it's about it's about shamanism and not therapy. It's very much similar. And there's also a hypnosis so it's about a hybrid between CRM a new model, now not like people will know about it was developed by an American woman, and Lisa Swann. And she, she developed this model, comprehensive resource model, and it's very especially specialist especially in trauma. It's a very very effective and modality for clearing trauma and it is quite safe it's a safe way of doing it and it's it's more prolonged it's more of a preparation and get into that place where you're mindful and you know allowing yourself to go back into some of the memories not really experienced none but remembering them. So you're unable to distill at least them so you know, living these memories to come off maybe abuse or these memories of you know, past things that happened and what that were that stuff actually to deal is just given that space, silly some and I've done a lot of work in that. It was fair therapy every week for 14 months and tall and saw caution. If you look at coaching, how is that different? coaching you might not be sometimes not, not not you may not go quality coaching for that length of time. You may only be coaching for some time. Six weeks or 12 weeks or three months or six months, but euro, and there's nothing to have, like a hybrid between coaching and therapy, and actually bring both together. So what I've done know, is what I'm doing from an acoustic portion as well as my men's coaching. I bring a therapeutic approach and based on where my journey, I've learned from the caution aspect of also having the counseling and the therapeutic. So when I put it all together a pitchman good stead to help us deal with some of the past hearts that may be affecting them. And it's so this is where I look to help people find peace because, you know, we can help people find a set of goals for their dreams going forward. But sometimes you need to have that that deeper and to really deal with the deep rooted stuff. So you're talking about limiting beliefs, but you're also talking about the trauma. Unknown Speaker 33:53 Well, yeah, like, you know, Brandon Handley 33:55 I think for you, right, you found In therapy, you went deeper. You found some things that were holding you back and I say I'd like to think of it as a plane right? Like, you don't think I'm thinking of like you know the actually thinking of like, God what is it just to say where those movies where they got too much like I'm thinking of like the cocaine transporters right like that they're always trying to smuggle but you know that it got to drop you got they got to drop off that stuff so they can make it over certain ridges right like and it sounds to me like you had some pain that was dragging you down. You had to address it. You had to identify you said is this still serving me? Does this serve me? Should they stay on the plane? Or should this be jettisoned? Steven Mills 34:43 Yeah, and this is what I would use the three years and this is where we need to, first of all, acknowledge that we've got that pain there. Acknowledge. Then we look at accepted and coming fame Going to a place of acceptance that is going on. And then we address so acknowledge, accept and address, as we are looking at when it comes to trauma when it comes to any pain from your past, as we need to be look really explored on the seas and it's also about awareness, there's a 44th in the awareness and for not acknowledged and unaware of that, how it's playing out in our lives, that we're not going to be willing to accept an address. And that's what therapy did for me, it helped me do all these 40 years. And it also gave me a bit of give me more tools to, to throw in when it came to court, Jen, and it helps me my job when I'm coaching is to help people slow down and find a place of peace spot, because that's the don't do that fast, then they're going to struggle to follow that intuition. When it comes to the passion and purpose. They're going to struggle to tell themselves to listen to what's going on and say rather than and so my job As to get them from the head to their heart as soon as we can. Because when we get them to the heart is more authentic, the be the shop, maybe more more fundable. And it's true that that's when the magic happens is when when, when we get when we get more honest and authentic from a place of that heart and allows more flow. So this is my, my role when I'm coaching and also brings like, like, I see a hybrid with with therapy at the same time. Brandon Handley 36:30 I love it. I love I love the four A's to write, acknowledge, accept, address and bring that awareness without being able to acknowledge except or and or dress and identify, right, give these things kind of a label. You can't be aware of them. You can't. You can't make a choice on something that you're unaware of. Mm hmm. So I love that. I love that I love I love the head to heart right now. Bringing them from The head to the heart. And, you know, to me, there's definitely a huge connection there. And, and I chased that one down to a few years ago, myself. And there's a booze lie. It's just, it's called the heart, the heart mind, right, connecting the two. And once you meet, once you make that connection to the two of them, and maybe you're feeling from your heart, and then your mind is able to as you kind of go back to right, what am I feeling in my heart right now? That's the acknowledgement, right? And then you have the opportunity to accept it, of whether or not that's true for you, in your mind, right after you've acknowledged it, and then you can address whether or not that's true for you. Right, is that my follow on kind of like, how I how I would use this? Steven Mills 37:53 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, pretty much you getting down at your heart levels and as For me key and this is where you find your true answers in your life not in your mind, not what you you know you think people should be and the best way to get from head to heart is asking really powerful questions and allowing them giving them that space Brandon Handley 38:17 have an example of a powerful question Stephen most Steven Mills 38:21 powerful question would be what's what's your biggest blockage? what's what's holding you back right now? Honestly, forget about external refer no forget about what's going on around you forget what's new mate. What's really holding you back? Unknown Speaker 38:39 Well, what's, what's the blockers? Damn, like, I would answer that too. I'd be like I was like, Yeah, man that you know, for me. Brandon Handley 38:49 It's it's what I'm doing right now. Right and it's fear. There's like tremendous fear and going ahead and and continuing to step into what I'm doing right now. Spiritual dope, right leading with spirituality. I mean, who does that? Right? Plenty of people do but it's the first time I've ever done it. So I'm terrified because I've never done this before. Is this the right thing for me to do? I don't know. So I'm blocking myself with a number of things invisible blockages, because I've looked all around and I see that society says, Well, you don't talk about religion and you shouldn't do this. And most people don't do it like that. And that's not the way it's been done in the past. And so man, for me, some of my biggest blockages are what we talked about earlier. These are all the things that I've learned. And I need to unlearn them, right. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 39:41 Now I need to face them and walk into Steven Mills 39:44 a set and another good question is what you seek what you seek in within. What are you seeking right now? The what's missing as something that you're seeking on a heart level. Brandon Handley 39:56 Great one brother. That is a that's a great one. I'm not gonna lie, because so what I'll do in the mornings, is, I have a, you know, mini practice as it were, right, a reflection period. And I go and I write these questions, I search out questions just like you're saying, What's missing? What am I seeking? And I don't you know, I would use the word God the universe, right, that connection to it. Right? And, and that's exactly what it is. I'm doing right now, with this conversation you and I are having I'm, I'm looking to kind of validate what I already know to be true. Mm hmm. Right. And and where can i Where else can I find this in life? And that's exactly you know, so I believe. I've already established a connection with God divine divinity within right. I've kind of harnessed with it, come together with it, but every day. I feel like I'm still questioning that right. I'm still looking. looking looking for that. I'm still looking and that's the spirit dope right there, brother. Steven Mills 41:02 Yeah, that's uh that's that's certain. It's a nice powerful questions. That's the more the more quality of questions, the better the more quality answers we'll get. And the more the more willing we are to search and like, go back to our on our curiosity and feel just curious in life. And when it comes to others, just asking questions, the best coaches, the best therapists are the ones that asked good questions and sharp after they ask the question, and just alone space lesson. Yeah. And then you pick it up on what's really going on. And you've given the most powerful thing here as allowing someone space to get everything out to release everything. It's maybe in the main so we can get down to that space. Most nuggets and coaching are found when once they've replied, You don't answer straight away. You give me back so silence is actually silence is golden, right? And silence in space that helps people explore much more when it comes to emotions explore much more what's on the heart, and it's about our curiosity. Another question I love to ask is, what do you need to do that you don't want to do? Brandon Handley 42:15 Now you asked me that one a couple of years back, man, that sucked. Unknown Speaker 42:19 I was like, Man, Brandon Handley 42:20 you always know what you need to do. And it's just like you just do it, you know? Because that's um that shows your level of commitment to what it is you say you want to do to me, right? What you know, so if you know what it is that you need to do, because inherently you do right and you're not doing it, are you indeed committed to what it is that you say you want to do? Steven Mills 42:51 So, again, it comes back to the choice love versus fear. are you choosing love in your life or are you choosing fear yellow in the future? To overcome you already moving beyond and choosing love, because when you're choosing love, you're much more you're following your true heart. You're trying to find your passion, you've got a love for others around you, your family and people. And love versus fear comes in every choice we make, I believe in when it comes to career when it comes to, you know, responsibilities in life, not just a family but our friendships. Love versus fear as the choice that we all have to make. Love comes from our heart fear comes from what's going on our mains, or what's what we are going to block our shelves. Brandon Handley 43:36 So for me, the question ends up being you know, is that part of kind of what drove you? I use the word drive you into therapy? Is that part of what made you seek out therapy was it you didn't find yourself choosing love enough? And you were choosing fear more often? Steven Mills 43:55 I choose fear much more often. Yeah, I load shame to crap on me. I upload shame to really orange Company allowed not to hold me back. So I was choosing fear for years, not through potential any fault at all. But it was my own fault was not actually addressing the traumas and not addressing the past that maybe has shown up in my life. So you talking about trauma reenactment here, I would gravitate to certain relationships in my life, because of my childhood. And they weren't serving me. And I didn't, I was vulnerable. So I know boundaries. And fear really troubled me for years. And it was only when I went to that journey healing, that I was able to then start fame than, you know, love and self. Also more love for people around me. And another only due to any trauma or addiction as healthy relationship. A healthy relationship, a loving relationship, someone that's there for you, unconditionally, on giving you that acceptance, as even when you're angry. Even When you're throwing a lot out there, and that's one thing that gave me hope and help me through much omnious as through the, my partner who was was just solid rock, and she, she was there constant. So relationships and love as another 92 you know, addictions, trauma? Brandon Handley 45:21 Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you, you know, it's so funny, like just kind of how similar, you know, parts of our journey are right? I can tell you that when I was vulnerable to my wife, Meg, years ago, when I was going through, you know, kind of my space, my journey, actually what even maybe even years before that, the whole the whole gist of of me packing everything up and driving 3000 miles across country in a vehicle that might not have made it was due to her ability to love me as I was on conditionally and then years later, when I was able to be vulnerable and she said, She says, I don't understand, you know, kind of what's going through what it is that you're doing, but I'm here for you. Right. And even even more recently, I think, you know, I just had a, you know, a minor just like blow up, but you know, you talk about that volcano and the eruptions just like, everything had gotten to me at a certain point. I was like, Listen, yeah, I've rarely Yeah, really express my anger, right. Which is probably not healthy. But, you know, I had expressed it and not in a violent way. I just like erupted. You know, I apologized, and I just said Listen, I you know, I really sorry, and just, nobody deserves to have to hear my shit just because I'm feeling this way. And she goes, listen, I get it. You know, everybody, just kind of everybody. We're all gone through some things. And you know, when you have somebody like that in your life, right when you have somebody that's accepting you as you are. That's powerful. And I think that that's also where do the things at home first, right The having a solid This is the importance of a good home life a strong relationship at home a strong relationship with your family because you can be who you need to be and be loved unconditionally for who you are every day at home. It makes it much easier to pass the threshold of your own doorway and into the world and accept that maybe somebody else is going to accept you as you are as you're being accepted at home. Steven Mills 47:30 Yeah. Because no matter what we look at, we all look for validation, right? Everyone in life looks for validation. You know, Michelle or Oprah Winfrey used to talk about this everybody acumen I'm sure. You know, we'd see him sad cuz they're not for you. Even like Obama and all these different people would say at the end, was that good enough for you because we're looking for validation. So what we all want validation from others and our ways and that police acceptance is powerful, and it's powerful and it allows us It gives us more Peace knowing that we can be who we are with people around us and and that helps bring peace and come back to grace, about self compassion, if we're showing compassion does help us on our journey to find more self compassion. And no, it's not an easy journey finding peace. It's not an easy journey, finding a healing through recovery from trauma from from from past hearts, but as a oneness, what's going on. So then, you know, you can then enable yourself to love them, and a better place going forward, and you then allow joy in your life yellow, loving relationships, you allowed yourself to find your passion and your purpose. And one of the things no, as, you know, one of the biggest things I've learned is not to care what people think. And if you can come to a place where you don't care what people think it's quite, it's quite cool, because you can just do your thing, be yourself. And, you know, for me, I'll just keep somebody Thing simplistic, you know, coaching, there's so many different modalities. There's so many different things about coaching. But coaching for me is just simply allowing people that space to explore with that. And a good coach is someone that lessons effectively. And that's good questions. I said, and I, you know, I saw as a coach, all I can the best gift I can give someone is my time and space to explore where they are and really get down to delve into the heart and go that little bit deeper to then help them find the the AHA most breakthroughs I get some that sense of peace. So bear with Brandon Handley 49:40 it. I think I think once you get to do right is you get to give people permission to find themselves to be themselves right and beyond hindered, and to allow them to share their dreams with you while you support them and helping them facilitate Let's state that right by giving them permission to be in that space with themselves as they are. And then I think the other part that I would throw in here for you is that you know, your whole journey as and where you are right now, I just want to highlight this is that you change the world outside of you by working on what's inside of you. Is that fair? Steven Mills 50:26 Yes, definitely. Because the more you you more you work on yourself, the more you get a crack to help others and a much more effective way, and you can make an impact make a big difference. And, you know, for me, it's just one passionate team. I don't need to have a big audience. I don't need to have you know, thousands of people follow me as one passion. I tell you, if you can change the world to one passion, then I'm happy. I'm a happy man. I'm fulfilled on my journey. If I can change the life of one person per day, I'm living a life of purpose. Making a difference and the lives of others. One passion to another, just like, Brandon Handley 51:07 just like Jim Rohn said, focus on the few. Yes, it's on the few brother. You know so Look, man, you're using the game that just to this whole thing, right is people who are kind of following their intuition, their inner selves and living a life that's true to who they are. And I can't think of anybody else that I know that fits that more than more than you are right now. So I appreciate you, again, reaching out sharing your story. What is what is uh, I always like to try and give some other tidbits to the audience to like, what is a book or some type of resource that has had tremendous impact. It's like, earth shattering for you. change everything about what it is and how you do it. Steven Mills 51:54 And one of the books I read was recently in the library last year was the The mindful path to self compassion. And I think it's Dr. Christopher kalmar. Another book that I liked was the body nose score. Brandon Handley 52:10 And I've actually had that one in my garage right now from a friend of mine. But uh, yeah. So tell me a little bit about that. What What does that What about? Steven Mills 52:18 It talks a lot about, you know, traumas, it talks about past hearts, it talks about how our physical ailments and physical body can tell us what's going on in our lives. And it's been it's been able to then explore and be aware of what's going on in our bodies. And because more often than not, it does know the score at times. It shows up in our life when we feel that tension or we can feel something like a sore sore throat or it's a really good book to explore emotions, and know how to express them and how to be aware of them. And it just delves into a lot of different types of traumas and stuff. It's a really good book. I can't remember the same fun. I can't remember the guys name. It's a Dutch guy and phone number A couple other books there. And that's the only good bit and the book I'm reading at the moment is called Layton call and by Dr. Hawkins, and this is a very powerful because well and that's it's quite it's a path to surrender. So it's really about letting go over fears, letting go of, you know, it's very thing you know understanding acceptance, grief. So again, it's a very powerful book and letting go and all the different kinds of fears that we have in our lives and how they're showing up and it's about just as I love that word, surrender, and people see so the end of the war, belt, surrender to your shelf, surrender to your fears, surrender to, you know, the attachments you have in life, you know, surrender to, and the outcomes. So end up to say having faith and just, you know, finding that space, to just be and surrender to all our own. Everything is our own. Us, I surrender to expectations. So it's surrenders and really big what I discovered recently and really tried to understand much more. And so let go is a good book, and many other different books I've read so many over the years, I was a personal development junkie. I've not read as much I don't read as much as they used to. But I still doubt you will delve into books though. And again, but certainly These are some I would say recently that I've had a big impact. Also, the complex PTSD book by Pete Walker was another one and from thrive and survive from surviving to thriving. That was a really powerful book and understanding my my trauma, and yeah, okay, so I recommend that Brandon Handley 54:43 last one there, mostly for somebody who is seeking to understand more about their trauma. Steven Mills 54:49 Yeah, or the complex PTSD or as well not so that's striving to survive is by Pete Walker, who writes a really really simple so really good book, I would say it was like the best have complex trauma. And yeah, Brandon Handley 55:04 I love those. I love that all sounds great. So thank you for sharing those thanks for sharing kind of your story, your thought processes, you know, the dealing with emotions. Here's a couple of anecdotes, right. And I've just really enjoyed our conversation here. And I love seeing that you are out there, you know, still serving these coaching communities still giving all of this wisdom and all of who you are to your clients and helping them to build out their own communities and their own coaching practices. as it were, we didn't talk too much about exactly what it is that you're doing. But you know, I want I want people to who, for anybody who's been piqued and interested by you know what Stephen is talking about today and would like to find more About Steven Mills, where should we go to find out more and connect with you Steven Mills 56:05 and you could check my coaching page on Facebook, Steven Mills coaching, I'm just revamping the website in the moment. And you would find me in the core coaching business Academy, and but the Facebook community that you're a part of Brandon. So you do a Facebook Live stuff in there and we give away a lot of resources and offer free, free events weekly. So we help development with we've got a pro program launching very soon. And for coaches that want to really make an impact and they're and they're, you know, practices and also help them thrive as a coach because 80% of coaches in the world and, and under $20,000 a year and we want to help people actually, you know, move beyond that and help them build a thriving coaching practice and overcome the fears of selling and overcome those fears of maybe associate them with what they're doing. So I my passion lies with helping coaches and find that passion and really start living by the purpose and start serving and making a bigger difference than they may be already doing. And Brandon Handley 57:13 you're trying to teach them how to stop playing small, right? It's a Steven Mills 57:15 it's a program that myself and my business partner Kevin Petri have developed. It's a 12 week program that will be launched very, very soon in July. So we are working hard on it, you know, we've got a curriculum ready and we're just going to be putting it out there. And that will be a part of my work over the next and years to come, I'm sure. As well as I still have my private practice. So you know, Stephens called Chen. And I've also got core connections coaching chain, which is the social enterprise, which we still do a lot about working there as well with some of the teams that have there. So a lot going on, and you're more than welcome to join me there. My email address you've got there and but you probably better Find me on Brandon Handley 58:01 Facebook and you know Steven was caught Shen are the court coach and Business Academy. Hello, brother. Well, hey, thanks again for hanging out with us today sharing your story, like I said, and you know, just being being out there being honest with us and being sincere. Thank you so much. Steven Mills 58:18 Thanks for having me, Brandon. It's been a it's been a pleasure. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Quick show notes Our Guest: Obinna Ekwuno What he'd like for you to see: His Egghead videos His JAMstack Jams: Gatsby Cloud | Netlify His Musical Jam: KOTA the Friend | Fela Kuti Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:03 Hello, everyone, welcome to the next amazing episode of That's My Jamstack the podcast where we ask the age old question, what's your jam in the Jamstack? On today's episode, we talked with the amazing Obinna Ekwuno is a software engineer for Gatsby, a media developer expert, egghead instructor and an accessibility advocate. Bryan Robinson 0:24 Before we dive into that interview, let me take a second to thank our sponsor this week, TakeShape, stick around after the episode to find out more about their content platform, or head over to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack for more information. Bryan Robinson 0:40 Obinna, thanks for thanks for being on the podcast with us today. Obinna Ekwuno 0:44 Happy to be here. Bryan Robinson 0:45 Awesome. So tell us a little about yourself. What do you do for work? What do you do for fun? That kind of thing? Obinna Ekwuno 0:50 Oh, um, so I am a software engineer at GatsbyJS. I work on the DevRel team. I originally joined Gatsby to work on the learning team. Like building stuff with like documentation, writing some documentation and working on like plugin automating workflows and like all of those interesting stuff, trying to like make like documentation better for like people to, like, get more information out of out of Gatsby. But now I work on like the DevRel team, which is like really cool, because like, I still do some of the learning work, but like also, like more DevRel right now. Um, that's what I do for work. Obinna Ekwuno 1:25 For fun, like, I like to write poetry. So I just, you know, write poems, hang out my friends. I I started getting into gaming a few months ago, my friend gave me his ps4 to like, try out some games. So yeah, that's that's what I do for fun right now. Bryan Robinson 1:41 So what kind of poetry are you writing? Obinna Ekwuno 1:44 I'm mostly like mostly melancholic poems like just, you know, I'm just writing I'm documenting like, life as a Nigerian boy growing up in Nigeria and you know, just just, you know, writing more for my myself, my future self done, like anybody really Bryan Robinson 2:01 Awesome, I believe of everyone that we've, we've talked to you're the first person who said that poetry is what you do in your spare time. So that's, that's awesome. Obinna Ekwuno 2:09 Thank you. Bryan Robinson 2:10 And then with Gatsby, so you said you were originally on the learning team and the devrel team. That's been an interesting thing that I've heard about Gatsby, what's the main difference between, say, the Education team and and DevRel? Because I've always felt that those kind of overlap in some ways? Obinna Ekwuno 2:26 Yeah. So like, there's not like so much difference is because when working out like when I was working on like, the learning team, because we're still trying to like flesh out the DevRel team at Gatsby, so learning was more like, you know, writing documentation, speaking, podcasts, all of those interests interfacing, like the community, so it was kind of like, it was more like DevRel but then at the same time, like actually having to write documentation as part of your job. But, so like, that's like, those, those are like the, the parts are like overlapped but like so that's why it was really easy for to transition from like learning things. There. Because like it was just same thing I started doing originally, but like, you know, with like, Oh, this is not what you're supposed to do full time. Bryan Robinson 3:07 So let's, let's talk about the the Jamstack a little bit. So what was your entry point into this idea of the Jamstack? Or maybe your static sites? How did you kind of enter this world? Obinna Ekwuno 3:16 Yeah, so, um, I think that was like, two years ago, when I had been writing, like, React for a bit. And, you know, it was really, um, it was really because I had to, I don't, I didn't have like a traditional entry into like tech. Obinna Ekwuno 3:30 I studied engineering in school, and like, it was really in uni. And like, it was really confusing to like, learn how to code. So I was writing, like, React after learning, like a lot of JavaScript. And then, you know, someone just came up one day while I was like, hanging out my friends from computer science, and they were like, hey, look at this cool stuff called Gatsby. Like, what is like The Great Gatsby like the movie, like who would name something who would never framework out of like a movie, but then you know, that then I you know, got into like the documentatioon. And you know, just really just kept going from there. So like Gatsby was like my first introduction to like, oh, when I saw that I think the thing that really got me into it was seeing that I didn't have to like worry about routes anymore. The whole the whole put put the file in the page folder and becomes a router. It got it got me. I was like, What? Yes, this is how I want to build Bryan Robinson 4:20 It definitely. Like I when I got my first intro into like some of the React stuff. I just, I didn't want to handle routing. That was like the worst thing about building a single page application. And now with Gatsby is just drag and drop almost Bryan Robinson 4:33 So when you were studying at university, you said you were like software engineering. Were you specifically looking to get into went into the web world? Or were you looking to do other things with that? Obinna Ekwuno 4:44 So um, I was studying electronics and computer engineering, and you know, like having having so I was doing more of like, smaller electronics like, you know, smaller sector boards, how do waveforms work, all of those things. Interesting stuff that I never really paid attention to. Well, but the thing is like with me, like naturally, I'm just really I'm really curious. So at first I didn't even want to like I didn't know what tech was about, I just really just wanted to be a network engineer. So I was learning a lot about TCP and IPs and network layers and all those like interesting stuff, Voice over IP, you know, the cool things for me at that time, then, I got into like tech, when one of my, my classmates was because I was just going to like, the classes to get my degree, like because I was good at math and physics. And you know, engineering just came like, Oh, that's what you're supposed to do. Obinna Ekwuno 5:34 But then when I really go into like, my classmate taught me to write HTML. And I learned HTML, I was like, Oh, my God, then I go, I go to CSS and I'm like, what's sorcery is this? How, how does this happen? You know, so I've always I think the thing that really got me here was like, always wanting to because everything excites me with like, when it comes to like tech, so like, always know, what's the next thing I can do? How can I use this in another way? So like, that's like, what's really interesting That's, that's what really got me into like, where I am now. Bryan Robinson 6:03 Very cool. So obviously working at Gatsby, your day to day deals a lot with the Jamstack. But how specifically, are you using the Jamstack professionally? How are you using it personally? What are you kind of doing nowadays? Obinna Ekwuno 6:15 Yeah, so um, I first like my, like building on stuff like Jamstack was like kind of building stuff for Gatsby was how I got to like the Jamstack. I like now because like, I work on the on the documentation. So like before, you have to actually write documentation, you kind of need to like test out or you're writing about and actually know if it works. So that's like most of the stuff that I do professionally with the Jamstack. So maybe if you're trying to document how a plugin works like you're actually running up a Gatsby, you're firing up a Gatsby demo site, trying to like implement this plugin, seeing use cases, questions that people might have about implementation and all of those like cool stuff. And mostly on testing out tutorials. When you write, you're trying to write a tutorial on how to use this With Gatsby, I would have to, like, you know, have to understand how this works, and then test it out, build it out and then write the documentation for that. So that's like how I work with it professionally. Um, and mostly just like educating people on it. Obinna Ekwuno 7:13 Personally, I have I have a personal sites that have I have been working my friend always laughs at me every time I mentioned my personal site, because I've been working on this site for like, for like, the past year. And the reason why I haven't really competed is that every time I feel like it's ready, I see some other thing I learned. I work on like, Oh, I want to add this to my site and then I just keep I keep test using it to test stuff. I do recent thing that is really getting me excited is Gatsby recipes. So like that's what I was like, oh, cool, how do I you know, just out of curiosity, how do I remove everything in the Gatsby config js and try to make try to see if I can make like a recipe out of like all of those things. So that's so that's how I use it personally, just I use my I use my site, as like a testing field for everything. Bryan Robinson 8:02 Very cool. I've actually seen a lot recently about how your personal site should be your, like development garden. Like you shouldn't think of it as like a final final place for things that just you should be pruning it and planting new seeds and all sorts of stuff. It's a cool analogy. Obinna Ekwuno 8:18 A good a good example would be this a colleague of mine, Josh. Josh writes a lot about his, um, his like, on this personal site and he adds like a bunch a lot of like, awesome features on that. And like I just whenever I think of my personal site, I'm like, I want I want my sites look like Josh is on. Because he just, you know, he works on like the cloud team, I got to be and then every new awesome feature that's coming up, he just uses a site to test it out. So yeah, Bryan Robinson 8:48 So obviously you're working at Gatsby, but what what would you say kind of your jam in the Jamstack?What's your favorite service or product? Or maybe it's like a philosophy what what do you enjoy the most about the idea of the Jamstack Obinna Ekwuno 9:00 I love that like the Jamsttack community is kind of like it because it's like relatively new, per se. It's like a place where people, you know, the entry level is like, it's not it's not so high. And like the community is really willing to like help people learn more about it because the community is actually just green. I think of like the the companies actually like leveraging of the Jamstack like Netlify, for example. It's like a company started in 2014. Gatsby gate became a company in 2018. Most, most of the technologies that we're using and stuff that we're still figuring out how do we want to make this like, for like, the, what's the code for like community, so I love that, like, the Jamstack community is really, um, it's really trying its best to educate and curious people along and make things simpler. Obinna Ekwuno 9:46 Um, my favorite service at this time and I don't mean to sound salesy, but then I really am in love with like Gatsby cloud, to be honest, because like, like, it's done like, I mean, the first time I heard about it, I thought it was I thought something else, like I don't know what it was, but like right now I'm just appreciating what's like what it does, we like build times and how it helps what's it called: developers like interface with content creators and all of that. I also really love Netlify, because like, I could host stuff without even without even understanding what CI and CD, like all of those DevOps, whatever related, you know, and I just really love that like, um, another thing I love about the Jamstack is like, the thing it does with so I can have different services coming to like a website's site without having to like worry about how those services run under the hood. Like I could host images on Cloudinary. do stuff like Gatsby, try new stuff for like, Auth0, you know, just what I need into where it is. Bryan Robinson 10:51 So out curiosity, so obviously run the speed of Gatsby Cloud is kind of important. It's obviously tooled up to run Gatsby? But kind of how have you been feeling? That's a relatively new product. And I don't actually know a whole lot about it like, What? What's been kind of some of the biggest advantages that you've seen playing with it? Obinna Ekwuno 11:11 Yeah, so, um, Gatsby cloud launched like last year. And like, we recently just shipped a new feature called incremental builds, which is like, really what excites me the most, because what incremental builds offices, so usually whenever you have to, like build, like a site, you know, static sites are fast, like relatively fast, depending on how much data you have, like there. It's, it's fast, but then gets me with incremental builds is trying to like push the limits of what we actually call fast. Obinna Ekwuno 11:43 So incremental builds, like what Gatsby does is also you've built a site, and then cool you build a site in like 22 seconds. That's all right. And then you want to make like a content change. So for example, you kind of do like a content change and then usually what will happen is that your site will be Build for every content change you make. But then what incremental builds offers is that for every content change, it really just compares, like the difference between the first build, and like the new edits that you've done. So I like to think of it in the react and the virtual DOM, um, play of how hot reloads of like, Oh, we measure what's what, what change versus what was, and then just build whatever changed. And that will reduce like, build time. Obinna Ekwuno 12:25 So you could have like, the first build is 22 seconds, the next build can be five seconds. And when you think obviously, like five, six pages, it's, it's, you know, it's cool, but then think of it in like 1000 pages, that that would save you like a lot of time and Gatsby also launched something will it build, which is like, a, like a benchmark site to see, to kind of know how many so if I had like 2000 pages on my on my sites, how long would it theoretically take to build this? So you can actually see that and then yeah, that's that's really wasteful. To me like, and it's awesome when you get the opportunity to walk for a product that you really like love that really just makes you happy. So yeah, definitely. Bryan Robinson 13:09 Yeah. And that's like one of the one of the biggest naturally one of the biggest arguments, but one of the one of the strongest arguments against some, like the static site generation stuff is, well, you know, it's great for little toy sites. But when you get editor, enterprise sites with thousands of pages, it can take forever. But if it's incremental, and it's only generating one new page when you do that, that's beautiful. Obinna Ekwuno 13:29 Exactly. Yeah. That's what makes me happy about that's what I love about the Jamstack. Like, we're always just trying to look for new ways to make things better. So when you so when you think when you think this cannot go past this level, boom, it's something else. Bryan Robinson 13:44 Always kind of standing on the last iteration, and making it better for the for the developer to work with it but also, because it's so powerful and because like the Jamstack is so so quick for performance and all sorts of stuff ends up making the the end user happier, too. Bryan Robinson 14:01 So what's your what's your actual jam right now? What is what's in your headphones where you listen to or your favorite artists? what's what's going on there? Obinna Ekwuno 14:08 So, um, um, cuz because like I write like a little poetry, I tend to listen to a lot of like, poets. Mostly I listened to poetry but like, also listen to rap because I like I call it conscious rap was kind of like those kind of rap songs where actually you kind of feel like you're in tune with the artists. And it's not just the beat that you're listening to. So currently, right now, I listen to a lot of Kota the Friend which is like he's he's like an independent artists out of New York. You know, he's rapping about, you know, trying to raise his son, you know, and all of like those really deep stuff and like I really resonate with him. I also listened to a lot of Fela - Fela Kuti, which, which for me, is is like education because like, cause Fela, Fela like comes from like, a place of What's it called, um, being African and being in Africa, so I'm over a more of a introspective person. So I like to like just listen to people that actually just take time to block out the noise. And like, put all of like all the noise aside and just really just be real with you. So that's so I listen to a lot of different fella could see Kendrick Lamar? Yeah, most of like, yeah, my, my music. My taste in music is actually just very random. Bryan Robinson 15:29 Yeah, sure. No, that's me. I think everyone's got, you know, the the certain artists that they that they really like, and they can span multiple, multiple types of music. So I really appreciate like the idea that like, getting in tune with the artists because that's always that's always like a nice thing to be able to like hear someone that is is as introspective or as thoughtful as you are. Obinna Ekwuno 15:53 Yeah. Thank you. Bryan Robinson 15:55 Cool. So So is there anything that you would like to promote that you're doing anything you want get out to the gym. That community as a whole. Obinna Ekwuno 16:01 Yeah, so I tried to like I try to like create like content because, um, because like I'm really curious so I just really just try to like put stuff together and just you know, I blog a lot on on LogRocket. And then also like I recently go into screencasting so I'm like doing all of that to egghead and I just make community resources because I feel like I really feel like as much as the information should be free as much as like you know, content creators actually need like some support but then yeah, that's it just just put out the content because like people because I love like the community really helped me while I was transitioning from being you know, solving a lot of math that I honestly didn't know that I think of it honestly didn't care about. You're just solving a lot of math and then moving towards like a computer science like background understanding abstract syntax tree all of those like awesome stuff like that. My my friends helped me like understand like, it was for my community resources. So I really just, you know, make resources on egghead basically any blog that would like allow me to, I used to write a lot on Scotch. That that was like the first place to actually like, wrote stuff on. Yeah. Bryan Robinson 17:12 Cool. So as you're kind of transitioning from, from kind of written stuff to the screencasting a, how's that been for you and be? How did you learn? Like when you said, like, all these community resources were important. Did you read more? Or are you more of like a visual learner and followed like, screencasts like what you're doing now? Obinna Ekwuno 17:31 Oh, so I'm transitioning from like, transitioning from the roots into like, screencasting. So writing was like, it comes natural to me. Because like, because like, I write a lot of forms. But then screencasting was something I was like what I did a lot of like, a lot of like, you know, iterations with Zac. Zac works at Egghead. Shout out to Zack because that really helped me because I I would do a video I did have like, oh no this. This is nice and I could say, Oh, no, because you know, people are watching this on your phones, and all of that. So, it was it was really frustrating. But then it got to the point where, you know, Zac, Zac had a lot of corrections for me. And I was like, ah, maybe this isn't for me. And then one night, I'm just laying down and I and I say to myself, you know, it really just boils down to how bad you really want to, like, do something to be honest. And then, you know, I just, I just go to did the recording once and sent it to Zac. And he was like, awesome. I was like, What? Obinna Ekwuno 18:28 So, so that and from there, like, I just, I have like, two videos, I don't know. And I have like, three more coming, you know, just really just looking for how to like, do that. And then I think the second question was, how did I? How was it for me learning to code? Yeah. So um, I first like I started off with like the under law. I did this under law training, where I can't remember I'm talking about my work, and then our learning community. So like, they really just go a lot of mentors and I told us Oh, you know, you're learning HTML today, I did a lot of like Google sponsored things on Udacity. And then at some point, like the visual, the visual learning wasn't really working for me because all I got was like, the perspective of people. And I wanted to, like, understand how it worked. So I, I, I started reading like documentation. Like even right now, like I'm learning I'm learning a bit of like view. So before going into like funding masters or trying to find like a course on Udemy I'm trying to get like documentation because I because as much as I don't think every documentation is that great like this, this this has been a really good experience like so I'm more of like, I like to read documentation and then get opinions, listen to podcasts, you know, talk to people all that so that's that's how I learn and and learnings are continuous for me. Because like, I don't I don't really feel like there's a place where you get to be like Oh, yes now and I I know it's all Bryan Robinson 20:01 I know everything now! Obinna Ekwuno 20:02 Yeah. Yeah. Bryan Robinson 20:05 Nice. Well, as you said, like even with the technologies that we're all kind of playing with, there's always something new like, you know, react with hooks A few years ago, Gatsby now has recipes. Like there's always something new. Obinna Ekwuno 20:16 Before create react app, there was Webpack, configuring Webpack for like a react. I did I did that. And then I was like, No, I never went back again. Bryan Robinson 20:27 Cool. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today and kind of share your stories. And I hope you keep doing some amazing things at Gatsby and writing more amazing poetry and stuff. Obinna Ekwuno 20:36 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it. Bryan Robinson 20:40 Thanks again to Obinna for the great conversation. And thanks to you our dear listeners for tuning in Week after week. Before we get to our sponsor, be sure to like heart star favorite or whatever in your podcast app of choice and spread the word about the amazing people doing awesome stuff in our community. Bryan Robinson 20:58 And now for our sponsor, if you listen to season you're probably aware of TakeShape by now. But as a reminder TakeShape is a content platform for the Jamstack. take shape has a headless content management system an easy to use GraphQL API, a static site generator and amazing new product called Mesh - a service that can tie together multiple API's into their handy GraphQL interface if you're doing anything with content on the Jamstack Be sure to check them out at take shape.io slash That's My Jamstack. Bryan Robinson 21:27 That's it for this week. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you back here for the next awesome episode. Transcribed by https://otter.ai Intro/outtro music by bensound.com Support That's my JAMstack by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/thats-my-jamstack

Quick show notes Our Guest: Jayson J. Phillips What he'd like for you to see: The Media Developers Discord | His Live coding on Twitch His JAMstack Jams: Getting back to simplicity on the web | Tools like Netlify His Musical Jam: Bootsy Collins - I'd Rather Be With You | Karen Harding - Say Something Bryan Robinson 0:05 Hello, everyone, welcome to another fun packed episode of That's My Jamstack, the podcast where we ask that difficult question, what's your jam in the Jamstack? In this week's episode, we chat with Jason J. Phillips, Director of Engineering at a 2U, boot camp instructor and a media developer expert. Bryan Robinson 0:23 Before we dive into the episode, I wanted to mention our sponsor take shape, stick around after the interview to find out more about their content platform or head over to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack for more information. Bryan Robinson 0:41 All right, Jason, thanks for being on the show with us today. Jayson J. Phillips 0:43 Appreciate you, Bryan. Glad to be here. Bryan Robinson 0:45 Cool. So tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do for work? What do you do for fun? Jayson J. Phillips 0:49 Yeah, so by day, I am a director of engineering for boot camp applications at 2U. We house a lot of boot camps web development. FinTech, UX, and a couple others through extension schools at universities. And so at night, I also teach web development and data visualization boot camps, most recently through the UC Berkeley Extension. And University of Denver was my most recent class. Bryan Robinson 1:18 Cool. So you're doing actual technology for companies that are doing boot camps through schools? Is that right? Jayson J. Phillips 1:25 Yeah. So the team that I that I oversee and manage runs a slate of applications that's for all parts of the learning aspect. So we build tools for instructing as we build tools for our students in our boot camps. We integrate LMS as for our learning platforms, so everything from the student is already enrolled to the student graduating, my team plays a role in their software journey. It's never a dull moment, pretty awesome. Bryan Robinson 1:53 So what do you do for fun outside? Obviously, if you're if you're teaching at nights too, then there's not a whole lot of room for that but what's what's your idea of fun. Jayson J. Phillips 2:00 Yeah. So I tend to run far away from technology for fun. While I do enjoy programming and you know tinkering around on my off time, I tend to be away from the house. So hiking outdoor activities. I'm a big cyclist and runner. I'm still trying to eventually chip away at hopefully running for the half marathons in 50 states I've allowed nine states now. So yeah, I try to make up for all the sedentary sitting at the desk by running myself until I can't run anymore. Bryan Robinson 2:36 Cool, so do you do like competitive or re you just doing it like those half marathons just to do the half marathons? Jayson J. Phillips 2:43 Yes. So my tagline is I don't run fast I run far. So that not competitively but I definitely enjoy a lot of the runs for fun and just to beat my my own personal times and then doing some team adventure races. Like there's a series called Ragnar where it's a team of 12 split between two vans and you run 200 miles over 36 hours. Bryan Robinson 3:09 Wow. I'm out of breath for a mile. And that's about that's about as much as I can go. So that is super impressive. Jayson J. Phillips 3:15 I mean, those races is all about the team. Because again, I run far not fast. So on the wrong team I can be probably very disruptive to a group, but it works out well. Bryan Robinson 3:26 Very cool. So So tell us what was your kind of entry point into the idea of the Jamstack or into static sites or wherever you found your way into this cool community? Jayson J. Phillips 3:35 Yeah, so I think the thing that hit me right away about Jamstack is that my first experience on the web, you know, was all static. Back in about 2001 2002, there was a popular platform called Graymatter written by this gentleman on Noah Gray, and it was written in Perl, but it it would take all your content, as text files and all your comments and actually generate static output for your site. So while the compilation step because it would recompile your entire site. So if you had thousands of pages as a blog, and you know, hundreds or thousands of comments, it would take forever. But once it was done, you had this beautiful site that just ran. It had the notion of templating. So I was like really one of the first experiences I ever got of playing around with a static site in any form. And so jumping back into like the modern era, I think it was around 2013. Before then I'd play around with Jekyll and Octopress for a couple years to replace the WordPress sites I've been working on. And then I dove into Wintersmith and Blacksmith was like some of the firt like early NodeJS, static site generators I've worked on. Bryan Robinson 4:46 So I'm curious real fast, because this was actually a conversation I had the other day about Wintersmith and Metalsmith and all all those kinds of first node static site generators and kind of the idea of like, why didn't those take off? Whereas potentially, like, now we've got stuff like, you know, eleventy kind of taking that role. But then on top of that, you know, obviously Gatsby and, and Nuxt and all that. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like, having used that, I used it a little bit, and it was over my head at the time. But like, what, what do you think about that? Jayson J. Phillips 5:20 Yeah, I think the barrier to entry lowered in terms of the setup, right, so I would say the first time I encountered Wintersmith and Blacksmith and a couple other of those types of sites, it was the same thing. It's like, Alright, this seems like a lot of configuration. I got these crazy Gulp processes or some other build process where now, especially with the advent of create react app and other tools, even in Angular and other ecosystems. It's much easier to get a common set of defaults that are a little bit opinionated, but enough that you don't have to mess with it to get started and you can kind of customize as you go, and I think that is what allowed Jekyll to take off when it first came out. Was that outside of a few hours sensible configuration in a YAML file, you could just write markdown and run it as default. It took very little in the way of getting started with it. Bryan Robinson 6:11 Yeah, the configuration is definitely it was a it was a big pain. I mean, honestly, some days when you're just trying to work on a project real fast, it can still be a pain if you don't actually reach for all these tools. Jayson J. Phillips 6:20 Yeah, I mean, it's, this is like the beauty of the the abstractions that we love building on top of, right, let's say, I really think it was just a maturing of the node ecosystem. And also just now we're within arm's length of a tool in almost any ecosystem now, but especially within JavaScript, Bryan Robinson 6:37 in fact, like the cool thing is like we're seeing projects coming up that are like refactoring Jekyll like there's Bridgetown nowadays. That is, you know, trying to say all right, we need a modern Ruby static site generator and Jekyll is just been around the block a few too many times. Yeah, that's Jayson J. Phillips 6:53 And I love to see it right. I think Jekyll for you know really brought static sites back into the forefront. And also outside of purely technical circles, you know, for other people to actually understand the care about it and see what the benefits were. So I think, you know, as we have these round Robins of, hey, this community is pushing that community ideas further And beyond that, who knows where we'll end up in 2025. It'll probably be something where we think the page gets created and the site's updated in like nanoseconds, Bryan Robinson 7:23 hey, there's that there's a JavaScript library for for reading brain process. So who knows? So I'm also curious. So So you've been you've been doing static sites for a long time with with Graymatter kind of being that that first entry point way back in the day. My first entry point was a little bit later, a few years after that with movable type blue. I'm wondering like, like, obviously, we're way better than those systems were back then. I remember I had a blog. They had thousands of posts for newspaper I worked for and it was like a 40 minute compilation step to deal with that. Do you think? Do you think that that timing was kind of the the downside of the static stuff? And is that is that why you think maybe we went dynamic for a number of years and only now coming back with the speed that we've got? Jayson J. Phillips 8:13 Yeah, I do think it had a lot to do with the company system, when b2, which was like the precursor to WordPress first came out, right, like it was competing with MovableType and a couple others at the time, and those were winning out. But then once someone saw that, hey, you could install this on a server and click a button and now you have a blog. And it starts out right away and you can add post right away. I think that's where the shine of the newness of this dynamic content sites came into play. And then I think there was also the piece of we didn't have, I think as advanced ways, generally available to structure content in static sites, whereas WordPress made that a bit easier to reason. So the tools like Drupal, where you could create structure around your content and understand like, what do I mean, when I'm creating a blog post? What do I mean when I'm creating a static page? And I think we will type in those tools as they moved along that over time, didn't have that really as well along with the long compilation steps. Bryan Robinson 9:17 Well, I know even like, later in the game with WordPress at the agency I worked at, we use a plugin called Advanced custom fields, almost any WordPress site we built had that by default, because that structured data was so important. And WordPress, I mean, out of the box didn't give give you a whole lot of structured data. So I think that's an interesting thing as well. But that's that's seeing a resurgence as well in terms of like, we want granularly structured data. Jayson J. Phillips 9:42 Yeah, and especially with a lot of the headless, headless CMS tools out. The awesome part is that there's a lot of different options that allow you to structure that content based on who's structuring it right. So like, with Sanity, you can reflect that in JavaScript files with other tools reflected in the CMS itself. So at the accessibility of structuring that content is really available to whatever type role needs that level of granularity to control it. So I think those tools also helped a lot. And, you know, even like, the pushes that we've had for Semantic Web and semantic structuring of content, even in just markup files and talking about what was it, like microformats, and all these other things, like a lot of that has kind of pushed us to where we are today. Bryan Robinson 10:28 Totally agree. So So we've mentioned a lot of different technologies. We've mentioned a lot of different things from from honestly, the history of the past almost 19 years now. What what's kind of your jam in the Jamstack? What's your favorite service or product? Or maybe it's just a philosophy or a framework? Where are you digging on right now? Jayson J. Phillips 10:45 Yeah, I think for me is getting back to this the simplicity of index page on the web. You know, like a lot of the things that we talked about, I that's what I enjoy most about the philosophies and the approaches of Jamstack You know, as an example, there was a client that I worked on back in 2008. For Fairmont International, a huge international chain of hotels. Every single page was its own index page. It was Yeah, every single page was a folder with an index page in it. For every single locale, language pair, they support it, which was over 50. So at any given moment, I was SFTPing like, hundreds of files, if we haven't changed a global header, and it wasn't a server side include, we had to change it on hundreds of pages. So I think just this approach that we can take these modern tools, and still come up with the simplicity of just another static page is super awesome. Outside of that, I am a huge fan of Netlify. We use it a lot at work to for like AV testing and for launching a bunch of previews for for our deploys for some of our front end applications that are built in react, which allows us to quickly test for UX changes Things like that. So, yeah, Netlify has been increasingly, I've been increasingly using a lot of the portfolio tools. So I, I dig it a lot for my personal blog and other things. Bryan Robinson 12:10 It's really hard to beat. Just the fact that it's all in one like you want you want serverless function, no problem. You want forums, no problem. You want just simple deploy of an HTML page. No problem. Jayson J. Phillips 12:22 Yeah. And I think also, even with stuff like forms, right, I think that solves a problem too, that we had back in the MovableType and other eras. And also in the first wave of static blogs, where we had to rely on Disqus or all these other external tools to get comments and then injected back into our sites. Now we have the full control of being able to build what we want, and or integrate suites. Like I know Gatsby studio is like kind of building up as well. Vercel has got a great, awesome set of tools, with Now or I guess they call that Vercel Now as well. But yeah, I think, you know, with these all in one suites that are leveraging these other platforms, they also make it easier for us to deal with lambda without having to jump into the AWS world and learn about security groups, everything else. So it's pretty awesome. Bryan Robinson 13:10 I had never touched a serverless function until Netlify rolled out their functions, just because it was just too big a pain to go into the into the GUI interface and deal with all that nonsense. I was like, Oh, I have it in your GitHub repository. No problem. Jayson J. Phillips 13:23 Yeah, just that that hole, just put it in a in a single folder. Let us know what folder it is. and it pulls up. I wish we had that when lambda was first being talked about, because that probably would have gotten a lot more adoption. Bryan Robinson 13:35 That would probably be two or three years ahead of where we're at right now. Jayson J. Phillips 13:37 Yeah. It's because I tried lamda once before that, and it was like, and it took me this long, a few years before and I just started playing with Netlify functions maybe like two weeks ago. So and I love how simple it is. Yeah, Bryan Robinson 13:52 You can just a Hello World example takes you know, five minutes to get up and running. It's beautiful. So So how are you using these kind of Jamstack philosophies at work, you know, with all these boot camps, and also, you know, personally, you mentioned your, your blog, but but kind of browse through what you're what you're using right now and how things are going for you. Jayson J. Phillips 14:11 Cool. Yeah, so. So at a previous job, we're using a lot of static page generation for our marketing site and letting that be cached in our system. So that marketing site was lightning fast. It was all static markup. And then we just use the API's for our back end financial platforms to integrate with authentication or integrate stock tickers, all those types of things. So what it enabled us to do was to quickly iterate on our marketing pages, and let the actual full, single page application stay on its own structure. And then it allows us to play with things like mono repos, which allowed us to have like share the common elements between all the different sites, but split architectures where needed at my current role one of our student facing platforms, we use the branch preview feature with Netlify to steady generate our sites and That's probably saved us, I can't tell you how many hours from our own QA process to now, and has made it so much easier to be able to switch between branches change, see the changes, see what changes look like in an integration branch before we actually roll that into master and release it. Jayson J. Phillips 15:16 So that's been super awesome. And then personally, so I do use Sanity.io for their headless CMS solution. I've really enjoyed having a clean interface to go in and write push a button and save it and push another button. And it goes off to the races to build everything. And so just this notion of my site can statically regenerate it whenever I want it to be like, it doesn't have to be recompiled unless I push that button also gives me an interesting level of control over content publishing that I didn't have before. Right, instead of me worrying about some systems timing. I can just say, all right, I release pages every Friday, but I can create my own editorial process around that before we statically build that site on the production. So that's been super awesome for me as well. Bryan Robinson 15:59 The whole idea of having an editorial process and all that is definitely something that is super powerful when it comes to especially like you mentioned, the deploy previews and all that, like you can send it, you can send preview links out to like, get feedback on a post before you launch it. Jayson J. Phillips 16:12 Yeah. And it makes it also makes code reviews, much more accessible and less obstructive, right. So if your reviews are really going to be around the functionality of the code, you can, instead of having to pull it down, you can review the code within GitHub, which is expanded their like code review tools a lot, and just the ease of reviewing code in the site. But then you have the fully launched version on that deploy branch, which, again, just makes that much easier. And then it allows you to do things like hey, I have a similar branch that we can wire up for the API so we can test that API changes. It's just it's just being able to split concerns where you need to at different parts of the process is pretty solid. Bryan Robinson 16:54 So out of curiosity, since since you're doing tech for a lot of these boot camps, and you're and you're teaching web development, Are these things being taught in the boot camps and in the classes? Or is it more traditional Dev, and then oh, by the way, don't forget, there's this new thing coming out, too. Jayson J. Phillips 17:09 So I think there's a mix. For our classes in particular, we do start with a static approach by telling them all about GitHub Pages and getting them used to that for their first set of sites. So for, I could say, probably their first 10 to 12 weeks, every homework, every page, every project they do is being deployed and GitHub Pages statically. And then we make the connection to them of the other tools later in the course. But we never actually get to come back and say, all right, you can launch here but when they get to their second or like end of class project, we have a lot of our students who end up deploying on Netlify or using like Firebase Hosting or even using Heroku and like static generating webpages and and just having it hosted via static folder. So some of the students end up deeper in Jamstack because of their own research, but they definitely get that hint of that throughout. course by talking about GitHub Pages and talking about what that means, and what Jamstack will be for them. Bryan Robinson 18:06 All right, well, so So let's talk about actual music now. What's your actual jam? Where are you listening to what's in your headphones on daily basis? Jayson J. Phillips 18:12 All right, so my favorite song of all time is Bootsy Collins, I Rather Be with You, there's just says something about that intro to I hear that anywhere I stop. And I just end up swaying slowly. As far as songs as I've been listening to you, like, for the last few months, is an artist by the name of Karen Harding, who had some, some really nice like Deep House hits, and one is called Say Something. And it's just a really kind of upbeat, quick, simple song that I hear it and it's like, Okay, I'm ready for the gym. Or I hear it and I'm ready for like, three hours of coding. Or I hear it and I'm like, Alright, 30 more minutes. I'll get on my live stream. Yeah, like it just it's my musical rebel. It's all I love that song. Bryan Robinson 18:59 So, so Also, you know, what are you - What are you looking to promote right now? What What do you want to get out to the Jamstack? community? You know, what, what are you doing that you want to get out there? Jayson J. Phillips 19:06 Yeah, I think first and foremost, which we're both members of, is the awesome media developer experts community. Yeah, we definitely want to make sure folks understand that they could join the discord even if they're not an expert, come join the community to talk about media, especially now that we are moving with heavy Jamstack and we're in that's gaining a lot of steam, that media handling and media expertise is going to be much more important because now image sizes matter when everything else on your page is code split and, and so much smaller. So now we need like a renewed focus on media. Jayson J. Phillips 19:40 The second thing is, you know, I've joined in toss my hat into the Twitch arena. I think for me, I'm sticking a gearing to towards really early stage to mid level engineering. So we'll talk about a lot of topics. I've been working on a movie Tracking site application just giving everyone a piece of functionality every week that we work on and on the stream. So that's been pretty awesome. So if you want to give a kid a follow up, come check it out. Jason J. Phillips, we'll make sure we give you some notes. But uh, yeah, that's, that's the things I've been up to recently that I've definitely want to get out there. Bryan Robinson 20:18 Very cool. I love the live streaming community. I've been a part of it for a couple months now. And it's just absolutely amazing. And I'm glad that you're a part of it. And I'm gonna go click that. That little heart button here in a couple minutes. Jayson J. Phillips 20:30 Yeah, definitely need to swing by, a few others, too. I've loved seeing the individuality amongst everyone. Yeah, when we're all talking about similar topics. It just makes that that ecosystem and that community so vibrant. And folks are so super supportive. It's like, if you're looking for like environments to to learn code, or to even stream code yourself, live streaming, especially on communities like Twitch and I think there's some fun Doing it on Mixer (editors note: Mixer just closed after recording) as well. It's, it's a good place to start and kind of get away from some of the toxicity you might see in other platforms. I don't doubt that it ends up on these platforms as well. But the communities right now are just so helping inclusive and like internally boosting each other, which is super dope. Bryan Robinson 21:19 I love it. Like there's so little judgment that happens. Like, I'm not always the best, like hardcore programmer and I've actually had chat debug my code for me, it was great. It was like a beautiful moment. Jayson J. Phillips 21:30 Yeah, I think the thing I love about that, is that, for my former students, I always model for them a lot that, you know, no matter how experienced you are, you're gonna make you're gonna make errors, you're gonna have bugs, right? The point is for us to kind of learn from those and not repeat it the same way. Right. And so, I do love that there's this freedom to just be yourself as an engineer on a live stream. Yeah. And, I mean, I've definitely had a moment where we were sitting in for 20 minutes trying to figure out why something wasn't working. And it literally was, I refer to the model in my code wrong. And I was like, Yeah, thanks. That's 20 minutes of me sweating and getting frustrated for no reason. Bryan Robinson 22:12 And there is sweat involved. It's it's it can be nerve-wracking in front of in front of a crowd. Jayson J. Phillips 22:17 Yeah, but it's a it's a it's a weird kind of scary freedom. or something. We're like, Jason, I don't get it. I'm like, I know. But there's just something also empowering when people do come in to chat. And you know, there's a message of support or a message of, hey, you missed something like just that. Automatic, like, leaving the house help is super awesome. Bryan Robinson 22:39 Yeah. And like, it's just like sitting in a room with you know, with other developers thinking through a problem it can be just super helpful just to talk to somebody about even that somebody can't talk back. Yeah, Jayson J. Phillips 22:49 and it's, and the community also isn't looking for like the super. Like wunderkind. I've been programming since I was two. So I never heard A bug in my C sharp, right? It's a lot of folks are just looking for folks who look like them or sound like them or have life experiences like them, and actually be able to see them writing code. And I think that's super empowering for all of us to play a role in. Because we don't know who were inspiring next, or who just needed that little bit of validation of, oh, Brian talked about his story. I will link to Brian's story. I could do this, right. And that that for me is like the, the main like, just thing that pulls me into education and into like, live streaming. Bryan Robinson 23:40 Yeah. Or like, Hey, you know, Bryan spent 20 minutes finding a typo in his code. I've done that like five times, maybe I am a programmer. Jayson J. Phillips 23:47 Or someone's like, Oh, I'm not a real programmer, but I'm building a tool to and this is a real thing that happened. I'm building a tool to screenshot my screen. Use OCR to look at my code. And then Tell me if there's better ways to write those functions. Like when you think you're not a real programmer, get out of here, you leave right now. Like, man, you should get on stream and I'm gonna follow you nervous now. Bryan Robinson 24:15 I'm not a programmer, but I wrote this entire thing that honestly, I couldn't do. So that's, that's super impressive. Jayson J. Phillips 24:21 Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's been amazing. So yeah. For folks out there, and especially in the Jamstack community, if you're looking to do that. Everybody's voices needed. You know, streamers, watch each other. People will watch each other stream. It's a super awesome thing. Bryan Robinson 24:36 Yeah, definitely. Cool. So I appreciate you taking the time to be on the show with us today and to share your thoughts and experience so keep doing amazing things on the web in the Jamstack. Jayson J. Phillips 24:44 Bryan, appreciate you. I love what you're doing here and thanks for having me on the show. Bryan Robinson 24:54 Hey, everyone, it's Bryan again. I want to thank Jason again for being on the show and I want to take a moment to thank you are listening community is one of the many things that makes the Jamstack shine. And you all keep me coming back week after week. Before we get to our sponsor, be sure to like part star favorite or whatever in your podcast app of choice, and spread the word about the amazing people doing awesome stuff in our community. And now for our sponsor, if you listen to season one you're probably aware of take shape by now. But as a reminder, take shape is a content platform for the Jamstack take shape has a headless content management system, easy to use GraphQL API, a static site generator and an amazing new product called match a service that can tie together multiple API's into their handy graph qL interface if you're doing anything with content on the Jamstack Be sure to check them out at takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack. That's it for this week. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you back here for the next awesome episode. Transcribed by https://otter.ai Intro/outtro music by bensound.com Support That's my JAMstack by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/thats-my-jamstack

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Please ignore any speech-to-text errors) [00:01:43] We've got a great special guest with us and I'm going to introduce themselves to you. Would you like to do that quickly? [00:01:58] I would love to. Hey, everyone. Beatty Carmichael here. And I love being here. I love marketing. I'm passionate about it. I love marketing to generate listings. Been in this business for about 20 years, working with sales agents, generating consumer leads. Start working in the real estate world. 2012, we start getting tremendous results with our clients, helping them earn as much as one hundred thousand dollars within six months to a year. And geographic farming using some things we've done. And then over the years started work on additional things to help them win more of the listings that we're identifying for them. [00:02:38] And that brings us real quickly today on what we do and in working with personal list and past clients and sphere of influence. [00:02:46] That's great. And what would you like to put me into? Juicy news. [00:02:54] Robert Newman, founder of Bandari and the. That that that should be enough for the moment. You're. [00:03:02] And I'm the founder. Roy, we provide a platform for you to lead. We've been using Facebook to get new leads. [00:03:13] So this show, folks, we're going to be discussing how to build a really powerful, effective personal form and how the techniques and the way you build up a relatively small group of referrals but have a really powerful referral engine. [00:03:35] So that's what we agree, hopefully. Right. [00:03:41] So maybe we can start with what you see as some maybe some of the people that come to you or make him around your team, but will refer people to that. [00:03:59] Yeah, that's super. [00:04:00] So the concept, I think is, is how do you take that personal list, your personal forum, your past clients sphere of influence and other people and get more selves out of it on an ongoing basis? And I think the thing that most people the biggest mistake most people make is they think they're doing okay, because what happens is, is you've got your list, you're working your list, you get sales from it. You compare yourself to other people in your office that you know, and you say, I'm doing okay. So this must be the right way to do it. But what they miss out on is how many more cells over here you really can get if you just understood what was possible. Can I share a study with you that kind of correlate? Okay, perfect. So a few years back, an organization wanted to really understand how many cells should you be getting from your personal contact list? So they survey thousands of agents across the country. They got that data back and as they started tabulating it. What they found is once you cross a threshold in terms of how consistently and significantly you touch that list, the average agent in that list was getting 17 cells a year for every 100 personal contacts that they were marketing to. So now that you got kind of a statistical reference, you can start to look at how many cells a year are you getting on your list and say, am I really doing all that well or not? And I think what happens with most people is they're doing far shy of what they should be doing. And that's the biggest mistake. If you don't know you're missing the mark, then you'll never hit the mark. [00:05:38] Two words, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. So you know that. [00:05:50] So how do we improve the mood of the people? But they know we move immediately. [00:06:00] Yes. So I say they're five steps. Or better yet, I might say there's five pillars. OK. And what happens is all these things go in. If you imagine you put all the stuff into a cauldron and kind of mix it up, all these things apply. It's not one step after another as these five different things. I think the biggest thing is understanding how does a homeowner choose an agent? Because once you can figure out what causes that homeowner to choose one agent over another, then you can modify your marketing to apply these principles and you can start to get more sales from it. So what we've started to learn is it's actually a formula. You have two things. You have trust and you have top of mind. And the goal is to increase your trust. And your top of mind within those homeowners mindset. And a real simple way to kind of understand the dynamic is if you put trust on a scale of one to 10. And the same thing with top of mine on one to 10, then if your trust is a three and you're top of mind is a five. If you were to multiply those together, then three times five, you're about a 15 percent likelihood that you can get a sale or a referral that's coming out of your list. But if you can increase your trust, let's say, to a nine and increase your top of mind to a 10. Multiply those together. Now you're about a 90 percent chance of getting whatever sales and referrals come out of that list. So the whole idea, the first thing is to start to understand that you've got increase both trust and top of mind. What I see with most agents is they work on top of mind, but they have no clue about trust. And so you have this lopsided so that you don't really get very far down the road. [00:07:46] Doing, too. When you say increasing trust. A lot of our a lot of our audience isn't actually going to understand what you mean by that or they're going to they're going to need something more specific in order to make it more apparent. So what is it? What is it you are referring to when you say increasing trust? [00:08:03] Very good. So that's actually step number two or pillar number two. How do you do it? Sort of. You have to understand that there is a concept concept in marketing that really applies to what goes on here. And it's the concept of outside perception versus inside reality. And here's what it means. [00:08:20] The outside perception of that homeowner is that all agents are the same, which all agree with that. [00:08:29] Sure. OK. I mean, for the sake of this conversation. Yes. [00:08:35] Ok, let me see if I can I would say there's a lot of filters in the average mind. That's been my experience being in this industry alone. But but but let's just say that for the sake of argument that that whether or not they have not. The average seller is is in the same category as the other or the average age is in some categories, other agents. [00:08:58] Ok. So let me give you a Real-Life example. A client called me up. His name is Jason. He's the leader of a team that year. His team did eleven hundred and twenty transactions. So it's a huge team. And they've been targeting a geographic farm of two thousand homes for six months. No results. He called me up and said, Can you help us? I said, I think I can. Let's get on the phone and talk. So I was on the phone with Jason and his assistant, Ken, and I was asking him what's going on in this farm? And and I immediately said, well, it sounds like you're not well branded. And I use the wrong term because all nobody. I'm really well branded. OK. What do you mean? He said, I've been spending eight thousand dollars a month for two years. I'm on the radio. I'm in the billboard. I'm on the park benches. I'm at the grocery store, at the athletic stores, athletic events. I do a 12 page newsletter once a quarter that I send down. Is that all that's going to this homeowner group of 2000 homes? He said, yes. I said, well, then how many listings came on the market in the last six months? And he said probably about 200. I said, how many of those listings did you get? He said, I got a couple. So I said, Jason, if you're so well branded, why did only two people trust you enough to sell their home? And there's this pregnant pause. [00:10:22] And he said, I don't know. I said, would you like to understand why? He said yes. So I started to explain this concept of outside perception and the way I explain it. All these homeowners look at you just like any other agent. All you do is stick a sign in the yard, list your home in the MLS and wait for someone else to bring a buyer. He said, You agree with that? I said, as long as they believe that you're just like everyone else, then they have no reason to choose you, because in their mind they can choose any agent and their home is going to sell and about the same amount of time for about the same price. I said imagine for a moment that every one of those homeowners out there work can. She understands everything about how hard you work, all your skill, all your degrees, all the extra stuff that you do, the nuances that drive everything. If all of those homeowners were Cam, how many of those listings do you think you'd get and can piped up and said all of them. And that's what I mean. Outside perception is most agents do the same thing. But the inside reality is you're really special the way that you build trust. Back to your question, the way that you build trust has you got to help them understand your inside reality of your skill and expertise to the degree that they would feel that they're full to choose anyone else beside you. [00:11:38] The way that you get there is as we've analyze this and as we've tested it, what we've found, there's a formula, I call it the three SS sets up. It's a three step formula that as long as you do these three ingredients on all your marketing, then you will consistently move that needle to where they start to lean toward you all the time. The first s is showing off your successes. That means, you know, let them know that you're constantly selling. The second S is to share the secrets behind those successes. Let them help them give open up the kimona, so to speak, in terms of of what is it that you do special that causes that sell to move faster or for a higher sales price. So they start to believe that you actually understand real estate at a level that most agents may not. And and now they are from their mindset. You've got the expertise. And the third thing is what we call showing in a unique services that you do if you're familiar with the term unique selling proposition or USP. That's your USP. So when you show off your successes, explain what you're doing with those and constantly have a U.S. opinion package that and send it out consistently. That starts to build the trust level that gets home owners choosing. This is making sense. [00:12:59] Yes, it is. In order to understand the case study, though, a little bit better, because what you're doing in. Because I've trained my segment of our audience in a very particular way. When we start talking about past like a past history of past client scenario, I've gotten them used or trained to the concept of referring to that as a case study, a case study that you're mentioning it, which is great, by the way. And I'm loving. It is. But but I am curious, this agent, can you at least give us the part of the country that they were in? [00:13:31] Yeah. I'm sorry. Minnesota. Minnesota. OK. I don't weigh on the high end or the low end of the marketplace. In other words, where they selling your average average? [00:13:43] I think their average health prices in the 50s to 80s somewhere. Right in there. [00:13:48] Okay. All right. Perfect. So, yes, I do understand and I do agree with what you're what you're saying. The most important thing or the thing that you're saying that is giving us more detail than than things we've had on the show in the past is definitely the middle s past successes. But the secret to my formula, which is something that we've bounced, we've never quite called it, we've never packaged the information, is as beautifully as your packaging it. And I'm really appreciating that like you're you're the secret of my success. I that is not something that we've labeled that particular way. But you don't anyway contain them. [00:14:30] But before we go, we're probably going to go for a break, a few moments, folks, with just one friend. I want to clarify, because you've used the term top of mind. [00:14:41] We also use online presence. We kind of mix that soccer mind with online presence. [00:14:49] That means you you need to keep your you or your brain and you all know me, your brain in front of your target audience, because the more you do that to me, the more chances are you will refer people to. I just want to clarify that. So we're going to go for a break, folks, and we're going to come back. We're going to delve more into this question mark. Mary will be back in a few months. [00:15:20] You're listening to the Get Cellar's Calling You podcast if you want more listings from past clients and sphere of influence from geographic farming and even from commercial investment properties. [00:15:31] Check out our marketing service named Agent Dominator. We guaranteed closed sales or give your money back. Learn more and get sellers calling you die. Come and select Agent Dominator from the menu. [00:15:42] Now back to the podcast. [00:15:46] We can we both personally. So would you like to continue? [00:15:53] I would love to continue because you're getting me excited now. This is what I love to do. So back to your comment, Robert. That, you know, a lot of people talked about it, but they haven't gone into the level. So let me talk about how specifically do you start to transform? Because this is a transfer of knowledge. This is a transfer of what you know about yourself. So that becomes what they know about you. Let me share another case, though, because this is an isolated to just one location. I had another client who was a three year age, and at the time he was targeting twelve hundred homes in a farm. He'd been there for a year. He had no listings. And he called me up and said, Can you help me? I said, I think we can. And this is right at the beginning. This is like four and a half, five years go right at the beginning of the time that we started to be testing out this concept of the three S's and long before we've guided to the perfection level that we have now. So we started to test some things out. And it took us about four months to get in gear with it. Okay. And in those four months, he generated, I think, like two or three listings. [00:16:59] And then from month, for two months, they he generated another four listings. And by the eighth month, he was getting to come. List me now phone calls every single week. And here's what's really cool. Half of those calls were saying, Josh, I'm thinking about selling. Can you come talk to me? But the other half were saying, Josh, my home is on the market. It's not selling. As soon as my contract expires, will you come sell it for me? They never met the guy, but they were so convinced that he could do a better job. They were buying him sight unseen. When you can take a consumer who's never match you and convince them that you're the Best Buy Carious Lee through the mail with postcards. Imagine what you can do if that's a geographic form. Imagine what you can do with your personal list. People who already know you. So the methodology is simple. First, you gotta remember, you gotta keep showing off yourself. The easiest way to do that is just sell postcard. But then most agents just do a just whole postcard and it shows a picture of the house it says just sold, gives the address and you flip it to the back of the card and it says, I just sold this home. [00:18:06] If you want me to sell yours, give me a call. Just the same thing that everyone else does. But if you take a little bit of extra time and effort and actually craft that just old toy postcard to tell a story. OK. So now imagine the postcard comes out this way. The headline might say Sold in five days for full price. OK. Now, already that's starting to express something that you've done that most agents don't do. It's pretty impressive. But then I tell a story about it and destroy might be you know, the Smiths had just gotten a new job in another city. They had to move fast. [00:18:43] They did not have much equity, but they needed all the equity they had in order to buy their new home. They knew they needed an expert. They heard in my reputation. So they called me great decision because with aggressive marketing that began before the home even went on the market, we were able to generate 10 showings in the first five days. We created three offers and creative bidding war, selling it for full price. So now I'm starting to explain a little bit about what happened, or I can take that same concept and use a different show, sell postcards. And I'm going to start to outline what are the things that I did to get the home ready to go on the market. So this old fart, you know, we posted of all the clutter, we staged it. We we did simple fix ups and repairs and especially new coat of paint in the hallway and in the master bedroom and in the kitchen. Okay. We use professional photography. I wrote custom ad to target specific buyers who would want this type of home and all of these things before it ever went on the market. So once it went on the market, we created a deluge of prospects wanting to come see it. Whatever it is that you do, you articulate it. And here's here's the thing that is really funny. I was talking to a client recently, and and what the client was sharing is, is, you know, it's like she said, the light bulb just came on. It's not that you're better than the other agents. It's simply that you're telling the homeowner what it is that you do. [00:20:18] So they perceive you as better. I said, that's it. Knowledge is power. And if they understand it, they understand you, but they don't understand the other agent, they're more likely to choose you. This is kind of making sense. [00:20:34] No, it makes it makes very good sense. There's only one small operation for our. Again, just for John Ani's our audience, which is actually I think the vast majority of the people that we that we communicate with are going to be digital marketers more than traditional marketers. We have done direct mail specialist in the past on the show. And I'm sure that John has done way more than I have. So I'm going to say this for our audience. You can take the information that we're getting right now and in your mind, transfer the direct mail piece into a landing page. This method would work beautifully if we're driving traffic from the digital source such as Google or Facebook, sending them to a page. [00:21:19] And we could use exactly what most of this reads. [00:21:28] Ballboy boop boop boop boop boop boop boop. Grew your boobs. [00:21:38] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no. I was about ready to master. [00:21:48] Didi is beating the data. Right? Right. More inside the baby as my baby's name anyway. So that that that's the only thing I would say. Other than that I am loving everything. I have nothing to add. [00:22:02] Hey, buddy. Do you have a charger climb every time you do human cloning group. [00:22:12] But I guess that I've been forgiven for all the bad things I've done. I forgive those who do it again. [00:22:24] Thank you. But do you want your coverage to do. [00:22:33] So let me play off of what you guys are talking about, because I think you make a great point. This is not a postcard. The postcard is simply the delivery medium for the message is the message that makes a difference. It's not the delivery medium. And so now if we're talking about landing pages, let's talk about how do you make that landing page more effective? OK. So as long as you're willing to go through a little bit more effort, you can take your number Skyhigh. Let me see if this makes sense. I want to talk about in terms of what is it worth and how much time is it worth to put together. So you take your average agent, let's say they've been in business for four or five years. That agent's going to do about fifteen to twenty transactions a year. They know probably 250 to 300 people. OK. So if you take the simple statistics of 17 sales per 100 is being what's possible at 250 people. That's 40 sales a year that statistically you should be able to get from your list. Get that average agent is doing 20 transactions a year, probably no more than 10 are coming from their personal contacts. So 40 minus 10 means that there is a differential of 30 listings, 30 cells a year that the average agent is losing. But when you start to multiply that by the average commission, probably call it seven thousand dollars per cell. That's two hundred and ten thousand dollars a year over three years. That's over six hundred thousand dollars in commissions. [00:24:00] Most agents are losing. The reason I go through this is because some of this is gonna say, boy, this takes a lot of work. Well, how much work does it take to earn six? How much work does it take to lose six hundred thousand dollars? That could be your family's income rather than your competitors. This is the most important thing you can do. So as we're talking about digital marketing on a Web site, let's talk about kind of three stages of how you can do a stage. Number one, you just put some text up there. Stage number two, you put a photo of you in a house and the text and maybe a little bit audio. But the best thing would be to do it on video, because this is one of the elements we haven't gotten into yet. If you take trust trusses divide into three different segments in terms of the trust I'm talking about that causes a homeowner to choose you. And let's see if I can make sense in an analogy. I'm a homeowner. I want to sell my house. And I have two agents there. I'm friends with both of them. I would trust my kids with both of those agents. OK. So that's one element of trust. One agent I know is a brand new agent. The other age and I know is a top producer and has been a top producer for 10 years. I trust them both equally, socially, both. Which one am I gonna trust my house to? [00:25:19] What do you think? The new agent or the top producer? [00:25:25] John, I always. I've been doing. Hope you do this one. [00:25:31] Absolutely. [00:25:32] Because I trust his expertise more. So trust is divided both by a relational trust. Have I met you? OK. But then there's two other segments of trust. And this is what we're talking about. Do I trust that you're constantly selling? And do I trust that you have the expertise? And so if I can then put myself on a video. What happens is now they get a chance to meet me just like those. Are you online looking at me right now? You start to look at this guy. OK. He looks trustworthy. He sounds trustworthy. You've never met me personally. But you can put a face and a personality and a voice and you say, I trust that guy. And that's what video can do beyond anything else. So if you would create a series for every postcard that you would have sent out if this was a postcard world. The content that you put on the postcard. Put that in a live video. So when people come to your Web site, they're able to see you here. You and you have your content underneath your video. They can read it as well. But now you're multiplying all the elements of trust. So you're more likely to get the deal making sense. [00:26:40] Yes. [00:26:42] Although you're saying a lot of stuff that we. That we believe in strongly. I have conversations about video with my clients and my my prospective clients almost daily. So it's it's it's I don't I it's always nice to hear another marketing expert who makes their living selling marketing services talking about the same thing you talk about with your clients. I've had the same results as you've had. Video is very impactful in terms of demonstrations of past success, such as testimonials, things like that. They're great. They're even better if you can take a 30 second video of a client you've just sold their home for. And put that on your Web site. Video testimonials these days in terms of demonstrations of success, almost, I would guess, in terms of inspiring response, anywhere from 10 to 15 times more effective than simply getting a written testimonial in today's world. So those things I, I, I believe in strongly and you're just you're you're going right down the you know, right down the chain. [00:27:48] Ok, well, let's hit that. That's a statistic you mentioned because it correlates with another statistic. Did you know that your personal lives. Those people who have met who are eight to 10 times more likely to do business with you than that generic list who've never met you? Did you know that? [00:28:05] I heard a lot of statistics, so, yes, probably. But continue with it. [00:28:11] So the correlation is that video testimony, they get a chance to meet the person as opposed to just read about them. And once you've met the person, that trust level goes up. And that's what I was talking about with video. Video allows him to meet you. They carry Asli even if they haven't met you in person. So that's why it's so powerful. One of the real reasons why it's so powerful. [00:28:35] So maybe you think it's step number four. [00:28:40] Yes, I agree. OK. [00:28:44] Seven. Number three. So step number three is what I was calling top of mind. And I think what you call perpetual. What? What was it? That's right. [00:28:58] And so toxify boy. [00:29:03] Ok, cool. Yeah. It's all the same thing. It is. So if you go back to a book, this is really interesting. Must you guys or some you guys may have read the book Millionaire Real Estate Agent by Gary Keller. Okay. And he talks about this thing called mindshare dominance. But the source of that content was a book written in the 1980s by Al Rees and his partner. And is called Positioning. And what it says is that the homeowner, the consumer can only remember two or maybe three brands at one time. And so if you're in a market where you got kinds of brands, which we are in real estate, then that typical homeowner is gonna remember typically two or three agents. And if you're not one of those two or three, you're not even going to get a chance at the deal. And so that's talking about a lot. In large part. Top of mind. And the key is, how do you stay top of mind? And I was doing a training recently for a large brokerage office and a broker guy named Dave was in there. And we're talking on the subject. Top of mind. I was asking him, are all coaches the same? And he said, yes. And you guys know the architecture is probably not just for those listeners out there. [00:30:18] I said, OK, so let me see if this makes sense. So I send you an email. OK. And that email says it's summertime. I hope you have a good summer. Or I could show up at your house unexpectedly and say, hey, my wife baked you guys some cookies. We just love your friendship and just wanted to bless you. I was in the area. Hope you enjoy these cookies. You're telling me that both of those touches are equal impact? I'm telling you, they're not. So what you have is to stay top of mind. You've got to constantly be in front of people. But the question is, how can you be in front of them without overdoing your welcome? And what I say back to your original question, Jonathan. What do most agents do wrong when they do? Top of mind. One of the things that they do wrong is they think it's an email campaign, that any email works. And so they go by an e-mail campaign off the shelf or they use one that their company provides and they think this is all you need to stay top of mind. The challenge is sometimes you may not know it, but you're actually ticking your prospect off rather than increasing value. So I see you laughing right there, Jonathan. [00:31:26] The guy I got to tell you a story, I bought a house recently and my loan officer day puts me on this drip email campaign. And I get so frustrated I'm actually at a market. I created a folder on my computer. Stupid emails series. Yeah. And I don't even read them. I just fly them in that folder because I'm going. Are you serious? You're actually sending me this. [00:31:49] You just bought baby food. You turn on the poles. [00:32:02] Well, almost. So let me see. Let me let me take a guess. You get a lot of e-mails every day. Is that right? Jonathan? [00:32:09] Heidi. OK. Absolutely. OK. When you get an e-mail that adds no value to you. Is that a pleasant experience or a negative experience? [00:32:22] Somebody used to do. [00:32:24] We keep seeing this girl, a Muslim. I apologize. I find it a little bit annoyed. [00:32:34] Yes, yes, exactly. So that's what these are. I get so many e-mails, I can't manage it. And so, like, one of the e-mails says how to clean pillows. [00:32:42] I don't care about cleaning pillows. Or another e-mail says it's summertime and open. This is this picture that says, enjoy your summer. I'm going. You wasted my time for that. And so what happens is, is looks like you people are going to unsubscribe. They're gone hardily. But they're getting this negative impression saying you're violating my space because you're not adding value. So when you do a touch, you've got to look at what adds value to that homeowner. And the more that you can add value, the more frequently you can touch them. [00:33:14] So we have a client that I think from an e-mail series. Hasbro has broken the code on this. He touches his list weekly 52 times a year. If he misses an email, they actually email him back and say, Stuart, we didn't get that e-mail. Can you please send it this week on this date? And when you've got your people wanting what you have so much that they recognize when they don't get it, then you've got a touch system that allows you to stay always in front of them and keep driving value. [00:33:48] You have a quote. [00:33:49] Can you tell me? Yes, I did. Whew. [00:33:55] Ok, good. That's the response I want to get. So it's all consumer facing, not real facing. And what he found is human interest stories. Do you remember the radio announcer, Paul Harvey? Does that ring a bell? [00:34:19] Yeah. But. [00:34:36] Okay. So human interest stories, if I can share something that someone can read in the go. This is wonderful. It makes my heart feel good. I'm ready to take the day to day. Then they look forward to it like a cup of coffee. Okay. But when you send them garbage that has no value, then it becomes a negative impression. So, as you say, to stay top of mine, you've got to find those things that are going to be positively received rather than negative. And the more positive they are, the more frequently you can touch them. So, my friend. Okay. He let me tell you who let me tell you a lot about him, because it's really amazing. He does 80 to 100 transactions a year on 35 to 40 hours a week. He doesn't work weekends and he rarely works evenings. And the way he is done and he's figured out I can educate them my expertise and I can touch them all the time. And between trust and top of mind, they just fly to him. And that's the third pillar is this whole concept. They just ain't top of mind. And there are lots of things you can do. The email stuff is one, but there's a lot of other things that you can apply the process. Does this add value? [00:35:50] Then you'll always stay top of mind. [00:35:53] Those soon, those subject that we punched in our previously internal discussions, when we get back to the building at least slightly, I kind of have a really whole my personal, my kind of people that we've been talking about through this interview, though apart. And then there's others that you need to set your list. I mean, send them send them relevant information or e-mail the postcard. It doesn't really matter. We've crunched, haven't we? It's the message that really matters. [00:36:38] But it does. But I, I. Did I miss it? We have a couple of specific examples. Do you happen to know what he what he specifically said 52 times a week? I merely touched on the broad category. [00:36:53] I can show you. I can show you examples of Mamo Royte work. [00:36:58] You're killing me. I want I want you here to hear it like an example or two. [00:37:03] Ok, so you're example. Here's an example. Starts off a story. Starts off first person. My dad was a storekeeper and we lived above our store. And I was good in school and good in math. And then my dad encouraged me to go to this music area, music facility. And I started to learn music. And I really enjoyed music. And by the time I got to high school and graduating high school, I had a choice to make. Do I go into and pursue math or do I go in and pursue music? [00:37:38] And I didn't know which way to go. And I talked to my dad and my dad said that, you know, you can only sit in one chair, pick a chair, you want to sit in for the long term and pursue that. He said, well, I decided to go into music then. So I started to pursue pursue music. [00:37:59] And after 10 years, I was able to go to the Carnegie Hall. A few years later, I was able to perform before the pope. And he starts listing all of these places and you go, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. And at the bottom, it's signed Pavarotti. Okay, so it's one of those things that you it draws you in. And it's a good feeling. Wow. And maybe somewhere in that comment, someone made a comment. Oh, Pavarotti. You know, I wish I could do music like you. I'd give anything to be like you. And give my life to do it. And he looked at her and said I did. [00:38:39] Ok, so those are the type of human interest stories I'm talking about, things that e-mails, things like that 52 times a week. [00:38:47] We're not talking like home improvements and we're not talking in the local home values. We're talking something else almost. [00:38:56] But 52 times a week might be a little overkill. Ah, sorry. I really. [00:39:05] It's very early in the morning for me. [00:39:07] I am nocturnal book lover. Oh. About Ruby. But we're real. You are. I totally understand where you're coming from. [00:39:22] But I just want to put just to tell the audience, this is these are these are people that you have to trust and you're sending them. Content that is trust building and interesting. But that's why you need to certain you have a really quality list. And I have a big list. And then the people you send, this will be a smaller segment. Some other parts you'd least you probably wouldn't seem some use in speech, which would be more traditional, which is more about if they're actually in the process of buying or selling a house. But some good concern, Robert just mentioned is probably too soon. What do you think? Oh, my waffly there. [00:40:18] I think you're right. You know, they're only going to want to receive the e-mail from you initially that they know you and they're gonna open it. And if you're just a stranger, it's not as effective. But what's interesting is if it's content they want, then whether they know you're really well or know you just casually. If they like the content, they're going to appreciate it. And that's the cool thing with this. If I can give you what you want, then whether I'm a close friend or a distant friend, you'll still want to receive it. And that's where the whole value proposition comes in. [00:40:55] Phone unsustained e-mail marketing really is just like get a lot of e-mail when I know a lot of the guys signed up for and signed up to fast and not even remember that were signed by Bob Lonas. They have a really easy way of describing them. [00:41:17] I have a section of people that see me that I really see as experts in marketing that that's why I'm interested in Facebook and WordPress, though they are my interests and they send me email and I don't read it all. But I'll choose not to unsubscribe because I know that maybe that particular e-mail wasn't totally interesting. Look, pretty good confidence that the MC female will have something interesting to me. What do you reckon about that? [00:41:48] I did the same thing. There are some e-mails that I rarely read, but I don't unsubscribe because there is enough value over time that I go, wow, that can help me with my business. And so I buy an entirely with what you're talking about, around what you eat, what you said at the beginning of this conversation round. [00:42:08] Trust me. [00:42:09] That's all it is. It is trust. It's that expertise. And yet when you really boil it down for all of this, comes back into that great big cauldron, is do they perceive you as giving them the value they want? Because we're all value seekers and and their ultimate saying, if I'm going to buy a house, buy a car, hire a person, go on on a date, whatever it is, ultimately it's I've got a certain thing of value. I'm looking for something I desire out of that. And if you can show me that you can deliver for me, then I'm going to be more likely to do business with you. [00:42:48] I mean, it was of great summary. I think we're going to wrap it up because you're getting a lot of phone calls. But there we go. But probably are we going to wrap it up? It's been a fascinating conversation. [00:42:59] We'll be back next week. I think we will be with very internal show where we be continue our ongoing on going series of FCO. Part three. [00:43:12] And thank you so much for being our guests. It's been fantastic. [00:43:17] Lovely meeting you. Love this conversation. [00:43:20] You will be coming back. We'll see you next week, folks. Bye. [00:43:26] If you've enjoyed this podcast, be sure to subscribe to it so you never miss another episode. Also, if you want an easy way to grow your business, check out agent dominated. Guarantee listings and sales from past clients and sphere of influence. Geographic farming and commercial investment properties. If you don't get the sales, we promise we'll give your money back. Learn more on our Web site. Get cellar's calling you dot com. And Select Agent Dominator from the menu. Thanks for listening to the Get Sellers calling you podcast and have a great day. P067 [/fusion_text][/fusion_builder_column][/fusion_builder_row][/fusion_builder_container]

What is better than getting to finally be in the same room as your best friend, cocktail in hand, talking shit, making one another laugh and getting a booty shot by their significant other? What? What could be better? Saying fuck the police and knowing their are finally others who feel the same way you do about this oppressive, racist institution- that’s what. Welcome in to episode 59, the post shelter in place event that these two gals have been waiting for! Listen as their audio doesn’t sound like shit, they aren’t talking over one another (that’s a stretch) and they actually get to drink this weeks cocktail together! This week in review brings listeners the bright lights (Fran is renting a magical sleep device for her child and Claire conquered solo parenting while being outnumbered) and some less than stellar moments (Fran needs sleep and Claire got stomach sick at a clients) News of the week is carefully selected and shared (shake shack is coming to Sac today and their employees are poisoning police in New York, Justice Gorsuch came through on the US LGBTQ civil rights vote and Youtube influencers are giving up their adoptive children). Advice comes at us from a listener who is having some seriously effed up relationship issues- including a partner who is banging a 22 year old in their home. The ladies are continuing to share things they love (Local Black owned businesses and Love Life) Lastly, this weeks hater is brought to you by those individuals out there posting and proselytizing about “blue lives matter”. Go home and educate yourselves ya ignorant asshats.Strawberry Coconut Slush1 cup Malibu Strawberry Rum 2 cups frozen strawberriesBlend that bitch up Did you enjoy the shows intro song? Thomas Castillo and his band Creamline, created ABV’s spectacular music. If you want to hear more from Creamline, you can find them on instagram @creamline916. In need of some advice? Want to ask us something weird or embarrassing and have us answer it live? Looking to slide into our DM’s?Find us @abvpodcast on insta and twitter

WEDNESDAY!  What WHAT!!  What happened to the Kobe Bryant mural in L.A.? What's on your mind today, The 2020 Census is still a thing, don't forget, Tom Brady steps out in his new jersey, Riggs is navgating his dad dating someone after his parents divorced, Alley took her kids on their first REAL playdate since the lockdown began, Aunt Jemimah is no more - they're changing the name, Nick Viall is being body shamed online, Father's day is looking different these days, Target makes some BIG changes with their pay and recognizing Juneteenth, and Alley's kid found a new bathroom habit.  Enjoy the show - without music or commercials!  

Join me as I speak with Regina A. Lawrwence who is a soulful business coach & strategist,helping you monetize your mission through a profitable, online coaching business. Part of the fun with this is speaking with someone who is not only spiritually inclined, but who has maintained her city grit. Find out how a high powered lawyer finds herself after crumbling to the floor in tears. All things Regina: https://reginalawrence.com/ https://www.instagram.com/reginaalawrence/ Brandon Handley 0:00 three to one. Brandon Handley here and today I'm joined by Regina a Lawrence. Regina is a soulful business strategist. And she is a former trial attorney and law school Professor turns soulful business and life strategist. She's found that many entrepreneurs have brilliant ideas and dreams but don't know how to take that dream and create a system or structure to make that dream and idea profitable. That's where she jumps in. And she was able to bring consistency system structure for you and really take your soul driven idea and convert that into an awesome business and I love it right. I'm super excited because that's that's right up. That's right up this and not only that, right, Regina, also called trum. Kinda like my hometown area and you're down. You're down in Arizona right now, but you're from the northeast and you've got like this little bit of a grit a little bit of a punch that you've really We only find like kind of up in the northeast. How you doin tody? Regina Lawrence 1:03 I'm good. How are you? Brandon Handley 1:04 I'm doing great Tell me. Hey, tell me something we can help you celebrate today. Unknown Speaker 1:10 Oh man, I just had a news client Sign up today. Very excited to help her with her business and to help her create the program she wants to. So that's what I'm celebrating right now. Brandon Handley 1:21 Awesome. I love it and tell me something man. This uh, you know, we're we're smack dab in the middle of pandemic, whether or not you believe the hype or not, but, you know, everybody's on different sides of the fence. Is this a hoax? Is it whatever, nobody really cares, but you know, for what it's worth, we are shut down in the United States of America. How's your business been during that? This whole thing? Unknown Speaker 1:43 You know, my so I have two businesses. I have a social media agency and I have a coaching practice and my coaching practice has slowed a little bit, just with people who want to wait to start until their brick and mortar opens. Unknown Speaker 1:57 But my social media Unknown Speaker 1:59 you See has really been picking up during this time. Okay, so it's a mixed bag for me. Sure. Brandon Handley 2:06 Yeah. I mean, look, everybody needs a digital strategy, especially now, right? Otherwise, how they go. And, you know, we always talk about like that post COVID plan. Is that something you talked about with some of your people? Unknown Speaker 2:19 For sure. I think this has shown us that one, it has shown us the ways that we can stretch and the ways we can do business in a way that we didn't think about before. It's also for me really put into place like how do I create business? And how do I create even greater automation and evergreening in my business, so that way, if something like this ever happens again, and by the way, it will because the government knows they can shut us down and lock us down? How do I get out of dodge and go to Costa Rica and live on the beach for a couple months instead of in the chaos? Brandon Handley 2:55 Right, right, right. Yeah, it does sound nice. I love the idea, though. Trying to keep that content evergreen. So, you know, we started off on a tangent and that's just kind of how I how I go. Let's just do a little bit of a backstory though. So, Regina, I love your backstory. Why don't you go ahead and share it with this audience a little bit, just kind of, you know, jumping in from pre crying on the floor, and then right after that. Unknown Speaker 3:23 So my background is I was a federal trial attorney for the city of Philadelphia. And then I moved into a white collar fraud litigator and investigator role. prior to going to law school, I, I always had this mindset that like I had to be an achiever, and I had to be successful and I had to just pursue things that my family and society saw as good. So get a good job, get a good education, find a good partner, and you live a good life and you'll be happy. And so I realized that I'd spent the first 2526 years of my life pursuing this happiness. And this piece through accomplishments and through external realities. And I really hit a pivotal moment when I realized I was in my office and I was working on a case for a really big client. I think I was 2027 at this point. And I started to have a panic attack. And I was no stranger of panic and anxiety. It fueled me It got me through everything in my life. And this was different. And I remember closing my office door laying down on my office floor and I'm, you know, dressed in a pencil skirt. I have a pair of blue baton high heels on, and I just laid there and cried. And I remember thinking, like, I don't know how I'm going to do it, but life doesn't have to be this hard. And it doesn't have to be this stressful and I'm going to figure out a way to not live the rest of my life like this. And so that experience of being like, okay, like You did everything you were supposed to do, and you're still very unfulfilled and very unhappy. What now? And so that launched me into this whole new world of mindset and spirituality. Brandon Handley 5:15 I love it. You know, there's actually a little bit before that I caught listening to to one of one of the podcasts on there. Nine brothers and sisters, how many Unknown Speaker 5:27 brothers and sisters? Yeah, I have four brothers and I have four sisters. Brandon Handley 5:31 That's, you know, that's got to be hectic. And not only not only like, kind of kind of like just being caught up in that size of a family, right? Because I'm imagining like, that's always a whirlwind and that's if everything's going well. And memory serves me correctly. Like things were not always going well in that household. Yes or no. Unknown Speaker 5:51 So I grew up my I'm from a family where there's a lineage of a lot of addiction and I grew up surrounded with a lot of our Hard drug addiction and codependent and the codependency issues that go along with that. And the just the all the things that go along with growing up around addiction but we were like, the thing about my family is like we look like this normal, you know middle class family like loving, seemingly loving parents who got divorced when I was 13 to our shock. We grew up in a in a neighborhood with a big, big house and, you know, we were this family that looked like this nice Catholic Italian family. But really on the inside, there was a lot of trauma and a lot of hurt and a lot of addiction. Brandon Handley 6:43 Yeah, no, that's that's that's a tough place to be right. It's a tough place, I think to establish your identity. Because the inside does not look like the outside, right, which I think kind of, you know, kind of plays into where you want to Anyways, right, um, you know, had this interesting thought of. I listened to the for a minute you were an anxiety coach. Yes. Yeah. Is that Unknown Speaker 7:10 right? Yeah, I was and I, I still do what I did as an anxiety coach, I still bring into my coaching now. Yeah, Brandon Handley 7:16 but I love it right? Because it's all about kind of evolution and who you are as a person what it is that you bring, right. You know, for a second there, I thought to myself, I was like, do you think that and you may have liked it this way? like anxiety attacks? Is that like a sign that you're just not living your life's purpose? Unknown Speaker 7:36 I can't I think it can be. I think that, you know, a lot of people have different thoughts and schools of thought about stress and how we respond to stress with anxiety. I think majority of anxiety is a habited pattern of behavior. I grew up in a household where my mother was always anxious. It was her phrase, I'm so anxious, I have so much anxiety and so even As a small kid, like I have Arjuna You're giving me agita, like giving me anxiety, you know, and you're not Brandon Handley 8:06 gonna hear that anywhere else but the Northeast. Oh, yeah, I know. You give me the agita. Unknown Speaker 8:11 Exactly. And so like I grew up with that identity as a kid where, you know, anxiety is just a way of being it's a way it was almost synonymous for me, like with productivity. And what I realized was that, like, a lot of anxiety is actually born out of a desire to control and control is an illusion. We have control over nothing. We have control over our thoughts. We have control over our reactions and our responses. We have some control over our body but we can lose that with illness and so yeah, so I think that some some anxiety is a sign of like, like shit needs to change. And but i think it's it's a sign of so many things. Brandon Handley 8:59 Sure, sure. And I love that you kind of hit on that too, so far as like, you know, mindset goes a lot of assist these learn tendencies, that that's what you grew up around, right? Even with my own kids, I'll stand like they'll plop down, like, I'm so tired. And I'm kind of on the mindset. I'm like, you are quite literally made of energy, right? Like, you're not tired. You know? I mean, you know, I mean like that, because when it's like five o'clock in the evening, or like midday or something, I'm like, No, no, you're not. That's just something you've heard one of us say. Right. So So yeah, I totally I totally get that. Let's talk about what it's like then to, you know, kind of spin this business. You remember kind of the journey to even saying, Hey, I'm a soulful business owner. This is what I do in that area. Like because religion or even just talking about being spiritual can go down so many roads, right. So let's talk About your foray into that, because it sounds like again, you started college as an, you know, anxiety coach, but that kind of led to more, you know, yeah, opened up for you. And I'm curious what that look like. Unknown Speaker 10:11 So from a really young age, I have had some spiritual gifts that through society and conditioning, I've suppressed but I've had a lot of different spiritual gifts where I would dream things I would know things before they happen. I always had a knowing about things. I can't describe it more than a knowing and and I would see things as a child and I knew from a very young age that my little brother was the same way and we couldn't tell people and so just like any muscle, your spiritual muscles, if you suppress them, you you don't, you're not able to lift like you used to. And as I started to go through my own mindset waking up, I really started to get into meditation and allowing the white, the whitespace and the silence and I started to feel these gifts. Come back online again. And you know for me I'm this rational lawyer who gives show me the reason show me the proof like that's how I'm educated and that's how my brain works I'm super analytical but I'm also have these spiritual gifts that I can't always explain them but if I know something's going to happen, it happens. Like if I get guidance on something I am got like, it's, it's the two were happening at the same time. And so initially, I was like, okay, like, I'm gonna, after I started the mindset coaching business, and the stress and anxiety business, people were asking me, how are you building your brand? You're doing such a good job building your brand online, how are you doing it? How are you building your business? And I realized that in starting my coaching business, I became an expert in a lot of things, social media, branding, marketing, you know, doing I'm a I'm a lawyer. So if I want to learn how to do something, I learned the whole process like I really am a sponge for things. So I realized I could kind of take that stress and anxiety coaching, and pivot it to business coaching. But what I was realizing was the business coaching wasn't fulfilling, and it wasn't fulfilling what I'm here to do. Because, for me, you know, with with business people ask entrepreneurs, what's your Why? Why are you doing the thing you're doing? Right? And that's great. But like, if a mom says to me, I'm building this business, because I have kids. Well, great, but what about those kids? Why is it your kids that make you want to do this? What do you want to do with your kids, right? And so the same thing with a spiritual entrepreneur, like, we have desires on our hearts of things we want to do and there's a really deep soul reason why we're on this earth in this moment in time doing the things that we want to do. And so I really had to work through the fact that I was worried that people would think I was crazy because I am a spiritual and rational woman. And then I decided to just say fuck it, this is who I am. This is how I show up in the world. I'm very intelligent, and I'm very spiritual, and I marry the two. And if people don't like it, they're not my people. And I just decided one day that I was gonna bring the two together and launch a whole coaching business just around this. Brandon Handley 13:24 Yeah, no, I love it. I love it too. You know, is there's so much and I know that, um, you know, sounded to me too, like when you first got when you first started going off and running you you were doing like long form blog writing and kind of researching the copywriting thing, right? learning that marketing bit, right. And that's, you know, kudos to you because that's not easy. You know, that's a, it's a challenge to be able to, to, you know, figure out how to do that type of writing, figure out what your market is. And then this part where you just kind to burst through and you're like, Listen, I'm just gonna go with it. Like I can't, you know, I can't keep hiding behind purely executive coaching, when that's not where my heart is. Right? Um, so let's talk a little bit about that, where it's like the integration of your spiritual self in the material world, right? Like, this is one that like, I think a lot and for me, it's a challenge. And I see it as a challenge for a lot of other spiritual people, right? integrating the spiritual with the quote unquote real. And then, like the money aspect of like, well, I don't want to deal with money like I mean, this is tough for them. So how have you been able to kind of navigate that area? Unknown Speaker 14:43 So for me, there is no separation between who I am. As Regina, the human business coach and Regina, the spiritual woman. It's the same thing and something that I teach a lot and this is part of my brand and in my book, thing is that you can be all of the things. We live in a society where oftentimes people say, if you are x profession you need to look like a BMC if you're a spiritual woman, you need to be pure. You need to be on a yoga mat and you need to be like meditating all the time will fuck that because like that, right? We're Brandon Handley 15:22 who listen that gets its is tired. That is that is quite literally tired. Right? And, and Unknown Speaker 15:32 it sucks. It's like, it sucks. Well, Unknown Speaker 15:36 it's like society gives us boxes and that's what we're supposed to be. And if you don't fit into that, that box and it makes you less legitimate. And one of my first spiritual friends and teachers this girl in Philly, her name's Reagan. She's a tarot card reader and she does energy stuff. Unknown Speaker 15:53 Tilton Unknown Speaker 15:56 she's amazing, and she was my first year. real spiritual friend in Philadelphia and she is almost six feet tall. She's like tall, thin, Giant Boobs always half naked. And she's like the spiritual powerhouse. And I remember meeting her and I was like, that is a woman who she is who she is, and she doesn't care what anybody thinks. And that's, that's what I realized. So like, we still are stigmatized in society. Like if you're a female attorney, you're supposed to look, talk and act a certain way. If you're, you can't be too pretty can't be too gay. You can't be to this, you can't be to that. And so I realized that I'm not going to live my life like that, like I am, who I am. And it's, there's a lot of polarities and who I am. It's very confusing to people, and I don't care because that's how we all are. We are all like that. But we try to fit ourselves in boxes so that people can understand us and comprehend us. And so that's how I was with the spiritual in the business. Like I am very spiritual. And I'm very smart, and I'm very fucking inappropriate. And I could tell you a dick joke in one minute. And I could talk to you about channeling angels in the next right like, and that doesn't, Unknown Speaker 17:11 that's relevant Unknown Speaker 17:12 and right. And that doesn't make one less more or less legitimate than the other. Right? And so that's how I approach everything. And that's like my mission, especially in working with women like you can be all the things and doesn't matter what anybody thinks about you. The thing you asked about money, and this is something I see a lot with spiritual entrepreneurs, where there's almost like this guilt about charging for services or, you know, we have to rewind back and we have to think about what what is money like we A lot of us have these preconditioned notions about money that come from childhood conditioning, and come from these old sayings like money is the root of all evil and like a Seuss associating some sort of like, like low vibration with me. When actually money is energy, money is abundant, like money gives us the ability to serve at such a high level when you the more money you have, I think the more good you can do in the world, so why wouldn't I want all the money? Brandon Handley 18:16 Absolutely right. There's, there's more people you can serve with it. And I love it and it's funny that you bring it up. I just got like this random packet of incense. And it's one of them's money, right? Yeah. And, and, and why why why bring that up is because I've definitely had conversations as I know, they're my journeys and people like, you know, money's no different than like the air that you breathe, right? Like, if you take a breath and you stop breathing, which Do you want more? Do you want money or do you want that next breath so which one's more important to and you know, as anyways, as you know, burning two cents on this is like, oh, wow, look, there I am. I'm literally breathing in money. Yeah. Like I was like, I love it. So, anyways, uh, you know, for me, that was a challenge for me too, I'll have to admit like, you know, kind of grew up just as like, kind of money being like this this thing, right, this thing and in the way of whatever. And I think that age just like you said this the approach of it, but v was reading the book of the science of getting rich by Wallace D. Wattles. Well, yeah, I was like, I was like, This makes all the sense, right. Like, and I finally like, I mean, things click then. And I was like, I was always so I'm absolutely. And I think that even if somebody can just look at it as an even exchange for energy, right, like, hey, look, it's just an energy exchange, you're there, you're doing a service to provide, you know, if, if I go to a restaurant and they provide me a service, I leave a tip, right? You, you're providing a service. So I love it. Unknown Speaker 19:55 And I think we also have to think about like, I had a call with a girl today and she does like spiritual work where she works with women, and helps them to like feel like women who are transitioning and pivoting in life and in business, where she helps them get to their highest energetic frequencies so that they can perform. They can pivot, like she essentially helps them change their life and their perspective. And she charges nothing for it. And I said, you literally offer a service where you are helping to change somebody's entire life. That's invaluable. Like, why are you charging more for it? Right? Brandon Handley 20:33 Yeah. Well, I was listening to, you know, you may know this name. Dan Kennedy is a copywriter. Yeah. Yeah. So he's got this one session where he's talking about, like, you know, exchanging people's money. If you don't take their money, they're gonna give it to somebody else. It may as well be you. Yeah. Right. I mean, and not and again, that was another thing that just kind of like resonated I was like, you're right, like that person, even if they don't have much money. And they have bad spending habits and all these other things. I'd rather they invest in what I had to give them, then maybe they're gonna go buy, you know, two cases of beer, whatever, right? So something like that, right? Unknown Speaker 21:12 Anybody who is struggling with charging their value, something that I have done and I teach people to do is if you have a service that you offer, sit down and make a list of all of the value that you provide people for what you charge them, like see it, like really map it out. And when you look at it, look at the value exchange between what you're offering and what they're paying. And then ask yourself like, is this a fair value exchange? Because maybe you'll look at it and you'll say, No, I should add a few more things to this, like I should beef this up for what I'm what I'm charging, or you might look at what you're charging and say, Oh, I don't charge enough for what I'm doing for this person. But I think like the analytical mind needs that it needs that comparison for me with my coaching. I need to know Know what I'm offering? And I need to be very clear on the value that I bring to the table for my clients. If I wasn't clear on that I couldn't charge what I charge. Brandon Handley 22:10 Sure, do you? I mean, do you do like an ROI sheet for your people? Like, how does that look for you like that conversation? Unknown Speaker 22:18 I like to just have that conversation with them and have them journal it out for me, and show me and talk to me about it. And I have other ways, like when we figure out rates, like, obviously, I look at what the market is charging, and I look at, you know, what type of business they have and all that. But I also like there is a part of it that intuitively, you need to, you know, you could have a product or service that you offer somebody and the market value is $3,000 for it. But if you don't feel in alignment with that value, even if its market value, if it feels like too much, you're never going to get $3,000 for it because you're not in alignment with that price. Right, right, right. Yeah. Brandon Handley 22:56 Yeah, no, no, definitely. You know, I've definitely had that conversation. I've definitely had that in myself, right? So instead of, maybe somebody's not feeling that they're worth that value, what do you do? Do you help step them up into that value place? as you're working with them? What do you do with them? Unknown Speaker 23:13 I think you start, I think we need to start with people where they're comfortable or stretch them a little bit. And then we can slowly incrementally because there it'll be different things for people to know that they're worth the value that they want to charge. So if you're working with somebody, and they're a coach, and you think that for three months of one on one coaching, they should be charging about three grand, but they're not comfortable with more than charging 1500. I'm not going to start them at three grand, I'm going to start them lower. They're going to start coaching people, and then they're going to get testimonials of how they've changed people's lives. And they're going to really start to see like, wow, I'm really good at these certain things and being a coach and then you incrementally increase the price. That way. They're in alignment with what they're charging. Brandon Handley 24:00 I love it. I love it. I read one guy, Vince Pugliese, who what he'd done was, he chose, like, the golden day on his calendar, right. And he had all the kinds of bookings and what he would do like on that golden day, he would charge like, maybe double or just like once he would love to be paid that day, right? Be like maybe if maybe I'm worth more, and I'm not charging enough. He said, All right. This is the golden day. And he would float that out there. And as somebody said, Yes, he knew he was worth that much and he needed to raise the rest of his numbers. If he didn't get that number. He didn't wallow in it. He just went out that day and did something fun, like with his family. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love it. So let's just try to meander here. Again, one of the things I want to try to share here with like this audience is that you can do the soulful business. You do a good job. I think of pivoting people Taking them from their corporate life and kind of into this business. Right. So let's talk to show. Tell me a little bit about that. Unknown Speaker 25:07 So I think the pivot from corporate to owning your own business and having a business, it's more soul aligned. I like for people to do it with a plan. So, I like for people to start to develop the concept and start to if I'm coaching someone who wants to be a coach, they have started to build the business and they start to bring in some clients, and we start to get really clear on what they're doing and why they're doing it for the pivot. That's what I did before I left practice. I started my coaching business before I left, I left faster than I would probably recommend for my clients too, but I'm also a gritty girl from Philadelphia, and I'll, I'll do whatever it takes, you know what I mean? Like, but I but it was hard for me. It was hard. It was really hard when I did it. And I really like for people to take Third time and to like create a plan of action. Brandon Handley 26:03 What about like right about now? Right? What if somebody kind of because of where we are right now transitioned or they're furloughed? They're, you know they're laid off. They're they're just literally not able to go do the work that they've been able to do. Have you been able to work with anybody like that during this time? Unknown Speaker 26:24 Yeah, my recommendation for people who are in that particular situation is quick, dirty and simple, like quick action, like get really clear on what you want to do, why you want to do it, the mechanism that you're going to use to serve and do it quickly. Like there are ways that you can build a business online for free. Essentially, you can build a free website, you can build a free email list. You can build an opt in for your email list. You can do everything. I actually wrote a post on this on my Instagram, about like the five apps applications you need to use to start a business for free today and whatever. So the first one is you can build a free website on Wix or on there was one other one I can't remember but I know Wix for sure. Oh on GoDaddy, Wix and GoDaddy, you can build a website for free. You can build an email list initially for free on MailChimp. You can also build I believe you can build your lead magnet like the the landing page, you can build it on Unknown Speaker 27:34 what's called Unknown Speaker 27:34 MailChimp and you can build it on Google Drive. And that's it and then you can build an opt in for free on a free version of Canva oh you can go into Canva you can make a free logo, you can pick free brand colors, and you can literally have a branded free website often lead magnet all of it. Like you could literally if you really wanted to do it. You could do it tonight in like four hours. Brandon Handley 27:59 Absolutely hundred percent. I love it. Absolutely. I'll throw one more on there in there for some people that are trying to monetize their mail list. There's a song like and it's like a free plugins called can't can't campaign z. It's like a front end that'll add somebody to the mailing list and you can charge a subscription fee or a one time thing for that. So it's pretty interesting. Yeah, you can spin it all up. And that that quick, for zero dollars. It's just a matter of kind of putting yourself out there. Let's talk about that for a second. Like putting yourself out there. Right. Like, I mean, do you recall, I think writing your first blog is definitely one where you're just kind of putting yourself out there. That's one, but then like, maybe your first podcast, your first video, the interviews, right, those firsts. How were they you know, what was that like to put yourself out there like that, huh? Unknown Speaker 28:53 You know, there's a reason why entrepreneurs are obsessed with self development and mindset. We're Because everything that we do, especially when we start our business is really, really stretches us because we're doing things we've never done before. And it's not like I would say for me, I started with videos, I started wanting to know I started with writing long formed captions and posts. And I decided as I was building my brand that I was going to I love to tell story. I'm a storyteller. I love to write. And so I decided I was going to use that as my first way to connect. So I started just speaking my truth and telling my stories and sharing about my life. That wasn't hard for me because I like to do it. I then I started to do videos, I would go live on Facebook all the time. And the first few times, it's hard, like, you're like nobody's here. Nobody's watching. But I mean, nobody's watching. Nobody knows who you are yet. Like you got to start somewhere. And then Instagram Stories like Instagram story. Stories are just the best tool for people to get to know you, and to get to know your everyday life. And again, it's hard and it's weird. You're like filming your life in a way you've never had before. Now, I love it. I film everything. My friends are like, oh, we're a Z list celebrities on Regina story, like, you know, so you just get used to it. None of it like, Oh, it's not intuitive to being a human like a lot of these things like, filming yourself recording yourself talking like, but you just have to, like, do it. Brandon Handley 30:30 Right. Right. I agree. I still remember. I still remember all my notes. kind of remember my first time like, my first podcast, right? I'm sitting in a corner just kind of like recording like really soft toys and just kind of like, in this is what's happening. soft voice right? Yeah, kind of tucked away. I'm like hope nobody hears me but I'm about the suddenness of the rest of the world. As soon as you press that button and send it out. You're like, Oh shit, am I gonna blow up my gonna catch on fire? No, nothing happens and that's okay. And my first face With live I had a USB headset plugged into the computer. And so the mic was trying to pick it up on the US I did like seven or eight minutes and people thought I can't hear it was like what, let me get closer, and like seven minutes have not even been able to deliver all feeling like super embarrassed. I think my kid definitely like one of my kids like jumping around on me and that's okay. Like it was a podcast or fatherhood. That was that was what I was doing that. And then I realized like, everything was no good. I unplugged it and I did it again. Like, immediately I was like, You know what? I was like, You got it. I can't put any space in between. Can't put any space in between that I gotta go again. And, and with the and just with, you know, doing videos. It's just it becomes natural, right. I think like, I think you know, walking wasn't easy, right? But we figured it out. Unknown Speaker 31:55 Yeah. And I think like we see people like when we get started we see people who have been doing doing it. And we think like, oh, like, that's so good. Like, how did you do that? Like, how are you like that, like, I'll never be like that. I got so good with doing videos because before I started my business as a coach, I, when I was working full time, I was a network marketer. So I did network marketing for a little bit. And the best thing about that was, it taught me how to sell it taught me how to go live, it taught me how to do really uncomfortable things that like were not intuitive to me. So now it's like second, like somebody could say to me, hey, go live on my Facebook right now. I'd be like, okay, and I just go live and talk about whatever they want me to talk about. Right? I wasn't always like that. Brandon Handley 32:38 Like, I think I think that you bring up something really, uh, you know, kind of poignant there right? We're talking about creating a business and if you've never been in sales and you're doing the spiritual coaching thing, closing the sale. Oh, yeah. Asking for the money right and and you talk to what do you what do you tell what do you teach her? What do you teach her? about that. Unknown Speaker 33:01 I mean, the first thing is the the thing that we talked about earlier, it's feeling like you're worth what you're asking for. I have no hesitation asking for what I charge as a coach, and I don't negotiate it, like I might give you, I might give people like a monthly plan, smaller payments, but I charge what I charge, and I offer what I offer. But I'm also very much in alignment with what I offer in the value. So that's the first thing you have to feel aligned. Like you have to have a soul alignment with what you're doing to be able to ask for the sale. The second thing about asking for the sale is like you don't really I don't even feel like I'm asking for the sale. The way that I coach. And the way that I run sales calls is I get on and I talk to them about them. It's not about me, what's your problem? What's your issue? What do you need a solution to? And I really pay attention to what their pain points are. And I think about it, do I solve these pain points? Can I make their life easier with the services and the skills that I have? have, like today I had a sales call I two sales calls today. And both of the girls, I can solve their problems in their businesses hands down. And so I made that very clear. This is what I do. This is how I work. This is how I solve your problems. This is what we do together. And this is what it looks like. And by the end of the call, both of the girls were like, I need you, how much do you charge? And that's the thing. It's like, I don't even think of it as like selling. It's like how do I What's your problem? And do I have a solution? And and then explaining to them the solution that I have and why I can serve them. And then the price is just, it just is what it is. Right? Brandon Handley 34:38 Right. I love that. So I mean you're you're just you're simply looking to serve and that's what it is is more of a service call. Unknown Speaker 34:45 Totally everything and I coach like this is the thing too. If anybody's listening, that's a coach. People don't if people have never coached with a coach before. They don't quite know what a coaching experience is like. So give them an experience when you get on a sales call. with them, how do I serve you today? And what do you need help with in your business? Like for me, people that I'm getting on calls with have been watching me for a long time. And they know people who know me, so they've been referred to me. So I have a lot of credibility that's been built up that people know that I'm a successful coach. If you're beginning that's okay. If you don't have that yet, but get on. So, okay, so yeah, totally get on the call with them and offer them a solution to a problem that they're having now coach them and give them that experience. And then by the end of the call, they're like, wow, you gave me so much value. How do I work with you? Brandon Handley 35:37 Right, right. We met through so you and I, we met through Lisa Archer rose deli, and she was she was my first coach. And what was so awesome for me in that coaching experience was having somebody that was on my side, right, having somebody who was like, I still remember when I told her I want to do podcasting instead of There's all this other stuff that wasn't like, What are you thinking? we work so hard for this? She was like, I help you do that. What are you trying to do? I was like, Why aren't you saying no? Right? So it's like the, you know, giving given them me the freedom to chase my dreams. And I and so when you've got somebody like that when you're able to do that for somebody else that's, that's fire. Mm hmm. Right? I mean, tell somebody that Yeah, they should go live their dreams, right? And then showing them how they can do it. I mean, you we talked about earlier, it's like that's invaluable like when you're changing that and really so she was a sales coach then and and and we have lots of fun talking about like, you know, this stuff applies like everywhere, like you talked about earlier, right. You can apply this in business you can apply this in family but like you're choosing right now to kind of do this sole purpose. And there's a you know, there's one of the phrases use quite a bit. And I was just curious on the language, he probably got it somewhere about soul contract. Talk to us about what a soul contract is. Unknown Speaker 37:08 So I believe that every person before we come to this earth in this lifetime, our soul comes for a purpose. And that's a soul contract, we have a contract with our soul. Our soul has contracts with other souls that we make before we come to Earth. So that we can we can have certain lessons lived out in this lifetime. And so I believe that our businesses are either a fulfillment can be a fulfillment of that soul contract, I think that mine is, or our business should be in alignment with that, like maybe, maybe a woman soul contract is that she's supposed to come to this lifetime and have get married and have a baby and that baby for a certain reason to fulfill the contract. So maybe creating the business is to assist her so that she can be a mother and live that life and do Those things right? So I don't think we don't haphazardly come to earth when we're born like, I don't think happen, like happens like that. We come for a distinct purpose. And I'm all about helping people figure out how their business is, can fulfill that or assist that. Unknown Speaker 38:17 Okay, I like that like that a lot. Um, Brandon Handley 38:21 I think I think that that's one of the things too that uh, you know, for me, like kind of awakening to any sole purpose, or any, any type of awakening was kind of later in my life seems like it hit you a little bit earlier. Do you feel like you know that that awakening kind of happens when it's meant to happen? So you're like, oh, man, I got a I've got a contract to fulfill. Mm hmm. Unknown Speaker 38:40 Yeah, I do. I think we have to be open to it and like, there's little knocks and like pings through our life and we often ignore them. And for most of us, we have to end up like, on the floor of our office or you know, Brandon Handley 38:54 so that's that's one thing that kills me right like, you always see like people like all you got to hit rock bottom before. bounce back up. And that wasn't it for me, right? Like I definitely was not rock bottom. And nobody wants to hear like, God, you know what, it wasn't that much for me. Like, I just decided to make this shift and it was decided nobody fucking wants to hear that, like, we need like when I quit drinking, for example, right like, what did you hit your wife? I was like, why do I need to hit my wife to stop drinking? And that doesn't like I just it just wasn't serving me anymore. Unknown Speaker 39:22 Exactly. Brandon Handley 39:25 And so I love it. I love it though. So that's what I was gonna say. There's like that feeling that you get right when you're laying there and or like those knocks at the door. And I think that what you're referring to, to me when I think about it, I'm going to like Joseph Campbell's hero of 1000 faces, right? The hero's call, right? So there there's a I think there's a penalty if you don't answer that feeling, right like and do you talk to that at all like if somebody comes up to him like I'm feeling this Burke spiritual way. I'm feeling this inside, but I don't think I should answer it. You do you talk to him through that? What do you what do you do with that? Unknown Speaker 40:07 Yeah, I mean, I think the penalty is like living a life where you're feeling unfulfilled, the dislike the desires of our hearts and like the desires that we have to do things like they're there for a reason. But we have them because there's something in us that wants to fulfill that in one way shape or form and it might not look the way we think it Look, it may not end up looking the way we think it's going to look. But the punishment quote unquote, is just that. We're going to feel were you your punishment could be spending a lifetime wishing for me it would have been spending a legal career wishing I was doing something that was more meaningful, or where I had more time freedom and life freedom. Brandon Handley 40:47 Would you say like me that's that's to me, that would be the definition of hell. Yeah, like, the purest definition of hell would be not to live out your soul contract. Unknown Speaker 40:55 Yeah, and most people live in that Brandon Handley 41:00 You know, I got I got plenty of theories on that one, too. But I mean, like, you know, when when you're taking medication or something like that you're really just trying to silence silence that, Unknown Speaker 41:09 yeah, right? Brandon Handley 41:11 You go messing with the mind like that you're gonna, you're gonna go to now something you're missing out. So you've got a book you're working on. Tell us a bit about that. Unknown Speaker 41:24 So the book I'm working on is, it's, it's gonna sound funny because it's a little bit different than what I do as a spiritual business coach, but I spend a lot of time talking to women and working with women. And I have also spent a lot of my life dating and dating and dating. And I realized that there's no there's no books out there that speak to me the way that I would like to be spoken to in dating. And I I wanted to create a book that kind of highlights the humorous things that happen have happened in my dating life. And the lessons that have come from all of those relationships states, one night stands, all the things. And so I've been writing this book now, where each chapter is a different lesson and a different person. And a different every person has like a funny nickname, like because my friends and I, everybody I date we give them like nicknames. And so it's like, what's the lesson? And what can I teach you from that lesson? Like, for example, I sit with women all the time, and they're like, I just can't meet somebody who I want to be with. And I just keep ending up with these losers. And I say to them, Well, what do you want? What do you want to be with? And my one girlfriend was like I was I wrote about this in the book. She was like, I want someone who's nice to me, and who has a job and I said, Honey, that's like asking for air. Like, given that he's nice to you and he has a job, what are like the core value pillars that you want in a Man, like the future father of your children and a husband, and let's get very clear about it. And so like that whole chapter is about, like, if we don't know what we want, and we don't get very clear on it, we're calling everyone in energetically. So how do we get clear? So it's all about that. So it's funny. It's a little bit vulgar, but it's also soulful, kind of like meat, vulgar, funny and soulful. Brandon Handley 43:24 I love it. I love it. I think I think it's entertaining but I think you also hit right there to look that's a that's a lesson that applies everywhere right? You know until you until you get clear on what you want. It's not how are you going to know when it shows up? Exactly right. And you keep throwing back and like yeah, you go back also with like, what do you want was first question right first because they're always like, this is what I don't want. I don't want this I don't want that. I don't want this. I don't want that. And He better not smoke. Unknown Speaker 43:54 Yeah. Brandon Handley 43:56 Right. And then like a ninja like well That's great. And those are the things that keeps showing up. What What do you actually want though? Because that's that's what you're putting out there. Right energy. I Unknown Speaker 44:07 think that applies in all areas of life like we are. So I don't know about you, but like growing up, I kind of had a fear of saying what I really wanted because it was like, Don't jinx it. Like, you don't want to jinx that. Right, right, right. No. And so, I've gotten very clear about No, this is what I want. This is what I'm calling in. Like, even in dating. We were joking recently with my friends. Like a few months ago, I was like, I wouldn't meet a guy and I went on this litany like, so specific. I was like, I want someone like this I want someone like this. Like I want Richard Gere and pretty woman like I was saying like it was just we're having this conversation. And then like two weeks later, I meet this guy who is everything I very clearly and intentionally have stated that I want it and that applies in business that applies in relationships like we should have such clarity around what we are calling into our lives and what we're seeking. And then just like when you say like, I want this particular type of car, like you start to see that car everywhere. It's the same thing with our business, our relationships, our friendships, like all of that. Brandon Handley 45:14 I mean, talk to that though, a little bit, right? Like the, the idea of being okay with stating what you desire, right? but also being okay with not knowing how it's going to show up, right? Because I think that that's where a big part where people kind of get get busted, right. It's like, well, it has to happen like this. Here's how I see it happening. Right? Do you coach people to say, listen, stop worrying so much about the how and just get clear on what it is you actually want to show up? Unknown Speaker 45:45 Yeah, and also have flexibility with the way it's going to be like, we don't always know how things are going to turn out. And maybe you have something like you want something but the only reason you want it is because that one and that desire. And the actions you take to get there are actually going to teach you something and open your eyes up to something else that you want. So like, life never life often doesn't look like what we imagine with our narrow rational animal brain. Like, yeah, Unknown Speaker 46:18 yeah. Um, Brandon Handley 46:21 when, when is that, you know, you're kind of going into this space how much actually opened up right? Like, you know, you've and just like what you're saying here like you probably saw like a few small pieces of what was possible. How much has it actually opened up for you Unknown Speaker 46:36 so much. But I also like, when I decided to do something, I decided to do it. And so when I started my business, I moved from Philadelphia to Phoenix, Arizona, and I knew no one here and I decided that I was going to go balls to the wall and meet everybody in this community and I every day of the week For a three month period of time, said, you have to connect with a new person. You either have to have coffee with them, have a zoom with them, do a podcast with them for three months straight Monday through Friday, I met a new human being and intentionally put effort into that. And it's been the greatest blessing and benefits in my business. Brandon Handley 47:22 That's awesome. No, that's, that's a great approach to write. And I don't think that you have to move across the country to do it either. Right. Like I think, I think that a lot of people are hesitant to kind of go jump into a new space again, because it's it's new, right and put themselves out there. But the funny thing is, is when you go to a new place, or go to like new meetings and meet up with new people, a they don't know who you are, they've never met you before. So you can be whoever you want, right? Like in that space. Right? You can bring the best of who you think you are in that moment. They're totally Yeah. I love it. What is anything you think we should have covered by now that you throw out there? Unknown Speaker 48:05 No, I mean, that I feel like we we talked about so many different things. write Brandon Handley 48:14 books that altered like your whole perception Unknown Speaker 48:18 of the first book. There's a few. Unknown Speaker 48:23 Dr. Joe dispenza says, breaking the habit of being yourself was probably one of the greatest tools of my life. It's a little science heavy at the beginning, but once you get into it, it really taught me that I can really change who I am and how my brain works. Louise Hay. She really showed me the power of mantras and affirmations and the metaphysical world. David Hawkins, he was a power versus force and my favorite book of his is called letting go it's All about letting go of the control that we think we have. That's an illusion. A big one for me was Gabby Bernstein, spirit junkie. It's all about all the love. The biggest thing about Gabby and what she teaches is that especially early writings of hers, all the love that we need in the world is inside of us. And so stop seeking what we're seeking from the outside world. Those I would say those books in the beginning, like, Unknown Speaker 49:27 were the biggest, biggest things from biggest teachers for me. And then I Unknown Speaker 49:32 also like I invest in coaches, I always have a coach. I'm always in a mastermind. I always have a I just mean, a couple of my girlfriends were coaches, we just started a weekly accountability group to kick each other's asses. So I always am working with somebody and always having somebody accountable. So Brandon Handley 49:52 are you inspired by like Jim Rohn on that one would like to know surround yourself with like the five people that you surround yourself by, you know, whereas we're What kind of drives you to do want to do that? Or is that just innate? Unknown Speaker 50:04 That's innate? I have always, I'm a communal person. So if I'm going to do something great, I want to do great things with great people. And it's been like that when I was in law school, I had a group of girlfriends and we studied for every single exam together, we studied for the bar exam together, like your success is my success. And that's how I've always lived my life. And then when I got into business and into the world that I'm in, I joined a mastermind in LA, which was just the best best experience. I loved that group so much. And from there, I gained these beautiful entrepreneur friends and we are each other's biggest cheerleaders. We refer each other clients like so. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 50:49 Who's your ideal client? Unknown Speaker 50:51 My ideal client is somebody I will work with men or women. I tend to work more with women. I want somebody who has As a desire on their heart that they are not fulfilling right now. And they want to figure out the structure and the system and the mechanism through which they can put it out into the world. I want to work with people and I work with people who they've already decided, I don't want somebody who is like, I don't know, maybe I want to do this thing. Now. I want people who are like, on their journey, they have decided it's time to make a change. They are just at that point where they're like, I need somebody to coach me and teach me how to do these things. Brandon Handley 51:35 Right now. Amen. Right. Amen. Like it, they're not ready to. They're not ready to take the leap. Right? Like, you can't push them. Right? That makes sense, right? I mean, they gotta be ready. You just, I mean, you're really just trying to pick up the pieces, Unknown Speaker 51:48 right? And also I got to teach the concepts and provide information and to to encourage, but Unknown Speaker 51:56 the power is in the person who is taking the Action, Brandon Handley 52:00 for sure. I love it. I love it. Where should everybody reach out to you like Where should we go find you. Unknown Speaker 52:08 So I probably spend most of my time on Instagram at Regina a Lawrence la w. e MC. And then my website is Regina Lawrence calm and that has some good freebies on it and different ways that people can work with me. Brandon Handley 52:23 Awesome way. Thanks for hanging out today. And, you know, joining me and sharing your story with everybody. Unknown Speaker 52:29 Thanks for having me. Good. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started. As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon, fuel your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're gonna find this book on Kindle, Amazon and as always on my website, samknickerbocker.comWelcome back to fuel your legacy. And today we have another incredible guest I love bringing on people from all different walks of life, people who have accomplished different things and are really focused On, on different aspects, they're bringing their light their love to the world in different ways fulfilling and sharing with other people. Billy Bross is someone you're gonna want to go follow him on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, these places, but he, he loves just helping online education companies and course creators break through the noise and fill their programs with committed high quality content and students students, right so part of its getting the students in part it's making sure their contents ready for that. He left a really great career honestly in renewable energy industry to go full time into his side hustle, his heart, his hobbies and ultimately his passion. So that's what I love about the people that I'm bringing on is that they've made that transition, and they're able to give us a light and knowledge as far as how we can make that transition in our own mind. He also runs a home and online home beer brewing school, so if you've ever wondered how to make Your own bruise and go check him out, he's awesome. Okay, so with that, I'm going to turn the time over to him, but I want him to be able to share his story and why he made the transition, how he made it, and how did he know when it was the right time to take that leap, quit his promising career and jump in full time to what he loves doing. So. Billy, thank you for being on here. I'm excited to hear your thoughts and and what we can do to become are following your footsteps. Awesome. Hey, thanks for having me, Samuel. And yeah, if anyone needs a good beer brewing recipe, then I'm your guy hit me up. Are you a craft beer fan?I actually don't drink alcohol at all. But I have family members who do and I know a lot of people who do.It wasn't a we'll talk about the business. It was a lot of fun, although it wasn't the healthiest business to run.Yeah, so thanks for having me again. And yeah, so you know, I I'm not the typical entrepreneur Am I very much like school, and a lot of entrepreneurs you hear dropped out of high school, or they kind of bash college and say, just get out there and start selling stuff and growing businesses. I actually liked learning and that's a theme that you're gonna hear from me. I love education. I'm very curious. I've always loved learning new topics. I remember in fifth grade, I was really into reading Popular Science Magazine. I would only read two parts, I would read the very front and the very back. And the front, they always had the section called what's new, and it's about all the cool new typical technology fields. And then in the back, it was always a classified section. And they're always like these really like kind of interesting, quirky ads. And I was I was like, wow, that's, that's kind of cool. You can build a helicopter, and then you can fly around. You can like buy a DIY kit on how to do that. That's really interesting. So I've always been interested in both science and art. So in business and creating new ventures, so I went through, went through all of high school, went through college, and then I went to grad school and got my MBA. So I took the very traditional path. But when I got that first job, which was a great career, I'll go into that. When I sat down the very first day at that desk after that, my boss remember, he gave me a tour of the office and everything and then finally sat me down and I was like, Okay, now this is assuming I don't do anything. And I just say the past, this is my life. I'm gonna be at this desk an awful lot. And I was excited to be there. But at the same time, I said to myself, this ain't gonna last too long. And so it wasn't too long after that, that I started on the side because I had this free time during nights and weekends, I started a beer brewing blog. So got really into brewing craft beer in college, really geeked out on like I do with a lot of things and decided to start writing about it and posting homebrewing tips and videos and things like that. So eventually, that was what allowed me to this was six years later jumpship when I was finally ready to leave that job and that career, I had this side hustle going, as you mentioned, and that was what enabled me to really forge my own path.That's awesome. So I'm curious. Because I mean, I know you say you're a proponent of education, and, and schooling, where would you I mean, do you feel like there's a line between schooling and education?Is there well, you can certainly have education without depends on what type of schooling you're talking about. And I think there certainly is a place for traditional education. But I think the whole I know the whole industry is getting disrupted right now. And I and I work with because I I work with online educators now online experts, teachers, teacher entrepreneurs, who are working in these areas. Well, for example, I have one on my school I'm working with and they teach artists. So digital artists, mainly people who do concept art for movies and video games. And traditionally, they would have to go to a university to get these skills and pay $100,000. And then they're not guaranteed anything afterwards, not guaranteed income or jobs. And now you have this online school, who I'm helping, and they help these artists they do it through $500,000. Sometimes a little bit higher price courses are still premium price for online but much cheaper than $100,000 for a traditional University. And the best part is these course creators are practitioners in their field. So they're in the trenches, they're, they're working in this area, and so they can tell their students how to succeed not just in their craft, but in the business side of their craft, which is so important. And now they're even starting to pass on jobs to their students as well. So, you know, there's certain there's certainly, there are places for traditional education. I mean, you wanna become a lawyer, you want to become a doctor certain fields like that engineering, but for, for some of these other fields, that's not necessarily the best path.And I think I think, for my cuz of how you caviar, like oh, I'm not one of those entrepreneurs that bags on it. I think that most for my experience, I all I do pretty much is an interview entrepreneurs of some sort CEOs, people who are successful in business or on the other side, mother's father, and just like, I guess I do interview a wide range of people. But I think most of the entrepreneurs that I interview there, although I would consider myself in this category, I bagged on traditional education, to a degree, but only to the extent of, I think that you could go get the same or better education from an online course. With somebody who is still practicing in the industry, and has some real life experience over going to a college, where that may or may not be the case, as far as crack practicing, and as you said, you pay now you walk away with $100,000 either spent money or debt with no guarantee of a job. And so, I think that's where, at least from my experience of talking to people, that's where most of the if you want to call it animosity comes from in that conversation. It's not that they think that to become a doctor, you shouldn't go have somebody practice and teach you that. But even even with that, being a doctor, being a lawyer, I hope not true, but I would say even with that, there's a lot of people who have gone through all of that education, formal education to get their degrees and in the process, they found that they actually are better able to serve clients or patients by you. Using methods that aren't necessarily taught in school, but to be able to use those methods, they have to have the credentials. And then they end up going off and doing functional medicine, which they could have done. They just want to have the licenses to do so without the formal education. So it's an interesting balance. I think education is everywhere. I don't think you should go fail.I shouldn't. How do I say that?I think failure is essential. Okay. I think we should be willing to fail, but fail different than the people in the past. Like if you're going through and you're making all the same mistakes that everybody else made. You didn't learn anything. Yeah, you know, guys like my point you need to go and create your own.Like, take and this is what this is one good thing that I think I gained from public like from my college years that I don't, I don't Where I would have got this otherwise, sure there's places, but how to conduct effective research is a very, like, if there's nothing else you learn. That's a pretty dang good thing to learn. So you can actually read medical journals and say, Okay, what exactly like how are these samples done? What's it? How are they using statistics? How are they doctoring statistics, not just medically, but business wise, if you're walking into a business and they lie, whereas $4 million company and you're like, Okay, and you have $10,000 extra every month, because your operating costs are like you're barely surviving doesn't matter that you're making $4 million of revenue, if 3,000,900 you know, whatever, if it's all going out in expenses. You're, you're struggling, right, one bad month and you guys full, that's different than somebody who's netting $4 million every year, you know, so, being able to read, statistics read and be able to research stuff i think is important. In in that so something I feel like I'd be Effective from there when you're helping somebody build effective content. What does that look like?Well, the important thing is to always start with the audience. So a lot of this is a trap that a lot of and I fell into this trap, too, that a lot of experts and people are just subject matter experts, people who know a lot about their topic. They become obsessed with the topic, and obsessed with the content. But it's that whole set hole, if you build it, they will come thing not being true. When it comes to selling education online. A lot of people think it is though. So you want to start you want to find products and content for your audience, not customers or an audience for your content. And there's a big difference there. So the most important thing is to focus on what is the problem to be solved, or what is the thing that they want, and then try to in as few steps as possible. That's a big mistake, too. You don't want to over people are overwhelmed with information. You don't want to just dump a bunch of insight PDFs on their lap. So you want to get them from really our noun to that endpoint and as a efficient manner as possible.I agree. And so with that, just because you're you have helped over 500 companies accomplish this. How do you address it? I guess if it's online, when you're doing online courses, how what percentage of these online courses have an active teacher, somebody who's involves teaching in it, and how much what percentage is just recorded content, like an online course is recorded, and they're gonna buy it and pay whatever and it was made once intellectual property and they resell it multiple times without updating? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. So so it's shifted over the years. So it's very different than how it was when I first got started in 2009 2010, where it was a lot more self paced, more on demand more of a separation between the teacher and the students. And now what we're seeing is The model that we like that we see working in that we teach is more so that other end of the spectrum, or more closely resembles a true college class or college semester, where you're taking people in, you're taking them through as a group, we often call it call it a cohort, kind of nerdy term, as we call it. And, and it can be 100% live teaching, it can be pre recorded, plus maybe some office hours or some support calls. But usually, there is some, I think, going forward, the way of the future is there's got to be some kind of support some kind of live interaction, because if not, I mean, the, the, the numbers right there. I mean, the lesson is right there in the data, and that only one to 3% of people actually complete online courses as just as terrible. It's terrible all the way around. It's terrible for the students. It's terrible for the teachers as well, any entrepreneurs because, you know, most of a business's revenue should be coming from repeat customers. Because the most expensive thing you can do Doing a business's get a new customer. So if they're not if they're failing at that initial product, initial product is not working for them. What are the chances that they come back for more?I agree. Have you add sure you have in this space heard of lightspeed, VT said again? Have you heard of lightspeed vt it rings a bell I'm not too familiar with it though. Brad Lea is the creator CEO of the of the service, I would highly recommend looking it up his his service what I like about his service, and this is not necessarily a plug for him, but why not? You're listening. You want to create an online course, why not plug for guy he's awesome. Um, but it's a very interactive so unlike a typical video course where it's like, you use watch it hope they watch the help they got out of it inside of the video. There's a lot of interactive things, you can click on. And it's like building a sales funnel. But in video course form, so like, I could be having this conversation and then say and what's what level was your income? I'm, I'm fine. And so that makes sense, right? What level is your income 50,000, whatever. So they're gonna have three options they pop up after me and based on which button they push, then they're going to hear different content from me based on where their level of knowledge is at, or it's going to relocate them back to where they need to hear, hear what I just said. So they can so we can contest comprehension contest, make sure that the people are getting what they need because you may have somebody who's taking an elective class or taking a course just because like they need the basics but they already understand half of the what the content and most courses and make you go through the same like the same path. And so they're they're only getting, like everybody's getting the same cookie cutter information rather than saying okay, I want to buy this course on so Media, for lack of a better word, right? There's people who don't even know that on social media, you should have all of your profile pictures be the same across social media, you should have all of your banner pictures be basically identical, you should have all of your your descriptions about who you are like there's, that's like step one, before you get started on marketing before we get started I that have uniformity, like that's important. So that person, maybe that's where they're at? Well, the other person may already have all that done already have been paying for ads for a while, but just needs to know how to write more effective copy, right. And so for that person, they can go through and get the first half of the course done, still get credit for whatever, but they get the first half of the course done super fast, because they have advanced through that they already know it. And then they can move on to the part that they actually want to do faster versus having a course where they're bored for the first half of the semester lose interest before they actually get the content that they wanted and then they don't complete it. So anyways, it's a personalized learning paths. No, those are excellent. Yeah, and it's a, it's one of the cool things you can do with online education technology. And it's a great way to increase results. So I love that. I'll check that out.Yeah, he's said he would be actually a good. He's super, super cool. If you reach out to him on Instagram. He's in. He's in Vegas. And he doesn't do interviews unless you come to his office. So that's a thing there, but he would be a great person, I think, for you to be on his podcast.Cool. Yeah. That was my mom go to Vegas. Yeah.Yeah, no, it's uh, and he's super chill. And he also I shouldn't say loves beer, but he drinks beer. So you'd have to be able to contact or like, my kind of guy.Yeah. Um, anyways, so So let's talk about this. When did you I mean, you got out of your working your corporate gig. You've got out of beer, I mean, creation, I guess craft beer education. So was that really That the transition from like, how did you transition from your corporate job to teaching people how to create educational, like content?Yeah, good question. Yeah. So so I left the full time job in the, in the renewable energy industry to run this beer website. And so fortunately, you know, again, I'm not the traditional entrepreneur, a lot of entrepreneurs were just like, jumped ship, I wanted to have money in my savings account, I want to have a decent amount of consistent income coming from that website. So I got to that point where I felt really confident that I could cut the cord with a full time job and have a viable business. And unfortunately, that happened, but it was really more of a springboard that website into where I am now. My intention really wasn't to be the beer guy my whole life. That was just a cool project that I was working on and I want to be experienced doing it and of course, wanting to use it to leave my job. But I really missed working with with other things. People on teams and collaborators, really smart people like I was doing. I didn't, I didn't have that anymore when I was running the beer website. So So I started joining these online forums and communities and meeting other people like myself in all different niches. And even though a lot of them were beyond me, they still I can still notice things in their business gaps, especially in their marketing, where I would say, hey, if you just move this thing over here, or just do this or get this page up, it could really explode your growth. And so more and more of them start to reach out and I started doing some consulting on the side. And that eventually became my main passion, helping people like myself who had the subject matter expertise, but didn't have the the business expertise or the marketing expertise to get it out there. And because I had learned that and I had this traditional business background, that combination of skills, put me in a good position to help them grow their business, and that's what led me to where I am today. So I sold the the beer website actually a few years ago. So that's now in someone else's hands. But but he's doing a good job with it. We're still in communication.Good hopefully hopefully turned to pretty penny that Scott. That's awesome building websites, I didn't know how like that I don't have anything that gets a ton of traffic. But you can just like go by URLs and or domain names. And if you put something on there and get a little bit of traffic and like build up the name on Google like you can that's a way that's a form of investing right there it's kind of interesting business model but it's it's cool to see like how much what I paid for my my domains and then how much they've increased in value since I've put content on their websites and add things pushed to them create a connection. So it's a cool it's a cool thing to see. So I'm curious. I liked the way you said this, I guess is you had a bigger goal and so many people they think, Oh, I'm I'm in this business. For me. I work in finance, right? My objective is not it is my objective. is financial but I'm in finance because of the the bigger goal, right? The bigger goal for me being in finance is to help people with well, as they understand how money works, then they it decreases statistically decreases causes of depression, anxiety, suicide, domestic violence, malnutrition. And those instances decrease when there's higher income, or at least understanding how money works in a home. And so although I work in finance, that's not my main gig, my main gig is what it produces. At the end. I think that's important for people to understand, especially when they're trying to identify well, do I jump ship? Do I go do my own thing? Or what is it exactly that you're jumping ship from and to? I think that's a huge, huge, huge question to be answered. Before you quit your day job before you go anywhere. What exactly are you jumping to? And as Billy said he wasn't jumping to the beer company to become the beer guy. That wasn't as objective. He saw that as a project as a current way of expressing himself in, in other forms of creation. And I think that's important because so many people will get fixated on a certain thing. And they'll say, Well, I don't know anything. I only know how to be a mom, I only know how to garden. I only know how to create videos, I only know how to make beer, right? And so they don't see their value outside of the task that they're doing. And this holds people back. So many people back even in their corporate jobs, because they think I'm only good for what I'm being paid for. Instead of recognizing that the value that they're adding to that company is so much more than the tasks that they're fulfilling. And if they were just to go market, just the value that they're adding, personally, they could probably increase your income, even if they didn't want to change what they're doing. They could take that out of a corporate And go perform those tasks by themselves and be able to create the same or more income more regularly and be in more control of their income. So that's a huge thing. And then understanding that this happens. I would say this happened to me as well, especially with this podcast. Like just kind of the the germination of this podcast is I was doing Facebook videos about different topics. Facebook Lives, I did them every day for I think a month did a month of Facebook lies every day. And what I found was people were reaching out to me and saying, Man, I would love to listen to all of your content, but I can't leave Facebook on all the time. You should turn it into a podcast. I was like, Oh, I never think about that. But I'll turn into a podcast then. And so so so many times, think about what are you complimented on the most? What What do people compliment you on? What do you think? What do people say? And if I Just think like that. Or if I could just do that, what is the most common thing that people say about you in that context? And then reach out to Billy and say, Hey, Billy, how do I turn this into a course? Yeah, I turn this into an online course. Because clearly if there's enough people who recognize my gift, even though I don't recognize my guests, how do I make this gift? able to reach more people? And how do I monetize it? Right? How many times does that happen to you, where you have somebody who comes to you who wants to create a course isn't quite sure exactly how to do it. They know their audience, they know what they what they're trying to teach, but they just have no idea how to monetize it, how to make it effective for their end consumer.Oh, it happens all the time. Yeah, it happens all the time. And and I'll tell you what I tell them because the wrong way to go about it is to go disappear into your basement for nine months and go record some amazing video course. It's been a ton of fun. On software and lighting and microphones and all that stuff, editing, distribution, and just to find out that no one really wants the topic, no one really wants what's being offered. So, this is good news. This is good news because you don't need to put so much pressure on yourself to have something completely polished and dialed in. The way to do it, especially now going going forward is to take that audience first approach, like I talked about, start to build a following get in the trenches with your audience, hop on the phone with them even I've talked to dozens of my customers and email subscribers when I was running that beer brewing website, not selling anything, just hopping on the phone and just asking questions. And look, I was part of my market. I was brewing up a storm. So I but I still my mind was blown all the time. And I was surprised by the things that people would say and what their problems were. So don't fall into that curse of knowledge. You know, where you think that you know it all. The market will tell you and you'll often be surprised. And then just get something out there. Just get something out there. Take an iterative approach. And this is really my approach to to life, you know, and the value that I provide. And like what you were asking earlier. I mean, I see myself in a really strong point of leverage for two reasons. One is I think personal growth is the most important thing in the world. And one of the ways that we can solve a lot of the problems that we have in the world, yes, there are a lot of problems with society and the economy and all that. But if everyone really focused on themselves, and focused on if I focused on making myself better tomorrow than I am today, and I did that consistently, every single day, if everyone did that, we'd be in a really, really good position. And one of the ways to do that is through education, through online learning online courses, and it doesn't matter what niche you're in. What tends to happen if a person is improving in one area, even if it's something sort of like insignificant by most standards, like brewing beer, people don't think that's entirely a life changing thing. But it is and I would see how my students would come in and they would fall in love with this hobby. And that passion would exist. from them, and it would spread to their family, their wife, their kids, they would all see it. And next thing you know, everything in the household is uplifted. Right. So that's one leverage point working directly with them. But I took a step back and said, Okay, let me work with the entrepreneurs and the teachers, the teacher entrepreneurs who serve them. And now we get into, so now I'm able to help them reach more people. So improve this collective personal growth going on throughout the world. And also, I'm a big believer in small businesses, they really are the engine of the economy. So that's I love working with entrepreneurs. Now, they're the innovators, they're the job providers are the ones paying a whole lot of our tax dollars. So that's what gives me a lot of fulfillment. I see myself really in a great place of leverage and aligns with my values. The main one being personal growth.Yeah. And I think that that's the key is identifying what isyour personal value and how are you aligning yourself with your personal value, I think once so I have a I have a my journal, a journal that I created. But it's called the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. And the focus is identifying who why why would it be important for you to actually exceed or succeed in life in general. And it's part of a grander process of identifying your identity. And as you said, your your values for me my core values are candor, integrity, and gratitude. Those are like more important than just about anything else. And when I really analyze who I am, without any fear of judgment for not saying God or saying family or whatever, without any fear of judgment of anybody else, what am I personally internally committed to more than anything else in my life, and it's those three those three values and so I built my business I built everything I do in my life down to my marriage, my children, my everything, based on those three values and all of these need to be present in everything I do. I'm not interested. And when you're looking at jumping ship or going something new again, Be aware of what you're leaving and what and where you're going. Because I'm sure I want you to tell me some failure stories of people who have done this what I'm about to describe, hopefully, some, if you don't, that's amazing, but I think you probably will, but people who they, they were doing this, I decided to create this course or education, out of desperation, because rather than running towards what they were passionate about, and running towards what they love doing, they were running away from what they didn't like doing. And that distinction is huge. just choosing to try it, try and create as, as you would say, try and create a product that you can sell just because you don't like what you're doing right now. Your current, your current work. That is not the way to move forward. It's not I think it has a short lifespan. You're not going to be a long lasting educator or innovator anything but if you are passionate about something and you're running towards what you like, you're gonna have different results. So tell me a story of where you've had Somebody who is running from something rather than towards something.Yeah,well, I can give you my own example. Sure, sure.Yeah. So when I, when I made that transition from running the beer site to doing consulting full time, I was doing some service provider work. So I wasn't just consulting, I was also helping people build and maintain their Facebook ad campaigns and the natural path. And so I eventually pulled back from that because the natural path if you start doing that is to grow an agency. You know, so you start to look at Okay, how can I get more clients? How can I do a better job with this and you're just gonna wind up in that agency playground. Turns out I didn't really didn't want to run an agency. It just, it doesn't align with what I enjoy doing. It's not me, much more of a strategist, much more of an architect. I don't want a big team or anything like that. It just didn't match up with the lifestyle that I wanted. And I always start with the lifestyle and reverse engineer that So I started to go down that path, but then quickly pulled back because I had that feeling like and yeah, I can deliver value here. But this isn't, this isn't my zone of genius. So a lot of my life has been like that testing different things, seeing how it feels. Sometimes you just have to write like, I didn't know what that that day to day was like, it looked good on paper, running an agency getting a lot of clients. But when I was actually in the trenches of it, I said, No, I don't feel so hot. Let me go back this other direction.Yeah, I think that's that's huge. Being able to dig, like to determine and decipher between that What are you running from something you write to something and making sure you're running to something that you love and that you're going to bring the light and Joy to the world not just from what you don't like because it's just barely I haven't seen it pan out very well for many people. And it's good that you were able to recognize that before you got too deep into something you hated and decided to. You never know happens honestly. So I'm curious when you did make the jump though. What was your? Did you Who are your biggest naysayers saying no, don't do that. Why give? Why are you giving up this great job? Tell us the story of your biggest naysayers and how you overcame them.I have been really fortunate in that I've always had a tremendous support system. I really can't think of one person I'm close to. I can't even think of one person who said, You're dumb. Don't do that. Don't leave that full time job. It's great. Everyone was just like a really great cheerleader. Just Hell yeah. Billy, go for it. So I've never had anyone say that, fortunately. But I have had haters, you know, running. You wouldn't believe that running a beer website. You get haters, like, I remember I was. I was, uh, I did some videos about a beer cocktail and some British one. And I guess they're very strict about how they make these beer, beer cocktails where you mix two beers together a beer and some other kind of a silly thing. But people will get on YouTube get really upset and passionate about pretty trivial things. So I'll get flamed in the comments if I made the recipe wrong or something And then and then I would have people just generally upset that I would sell information. A lot of people just see that as a big No, no. How could you possibly sell this, especially in a niche, like an enthusiast niche? You know, the beer market? People are a little bit touchy about that. So, so yeah, I certainly had my fair share of haters, but but no one no one saying, hey, you shouldn't be doing that as a career or a business fortunately.Right? So how so? How did you overcome that? Because there's people who, maybe they have support in their career, but when they see those comments online, when they see that the haters, they're like, Oh, no, am I doing something wrong? Maybe I should adjust my my approach my market like maybe, maybe I should change maybe I get doing whatever I'm doing. So how did you learn to just let that roll off of you or not give it any credence? Like how did you move past that and say, Look, I'm doing me you do you and you don't want to do it, whatever. If you want to post crappy things, that's fine, too. Whatever.Yeah. So a big Part of it was looking to mentors. So looking to people who either mentors I knew personally or mentors from a distance I just followed online, who were a few steps ahead of me, or many steps ahead of me and had way more haters than me and seeing them talk about it. I remember I think it was a roommate safety, if you know who he is heard of him? Yeah. And he had his own version of Have you seen mean tweets against what he's called Jimmy Fallon, one of those late nights? Yeah. President Obama will be on there reading all the mean tweets about him and he makes it funny. So Remi did something like that, I think was him and maybe James altucher. And they're reading all the tweets. It was like this funny, they're sitting around the fireplace drinking whiskey or something, and reading some of the hit the April comments on their YouTube videos. So I've Oh, I'm a big fan of humor. So I used humor to approach it and just kind of have to laugh at them. You know, it's silly, right? And I don't take it personally. And I realized that they only see they only see a sliver of me and my personality. Right, like they saw maybe just the first three minutes of that YouTube video and that's all they know about me. Right? So I have a lot of empathy.I think I love that. I think that and that's really the whole purpose of my book or one of the major purposes of my book is exactly that. How do you like gain perspective of what's really happening? So often in our world today, we get sucked into like, Oh, this is such a big deal on Facebook. It's like no, like, literally in two days, nobody's gonna remember this thread even happened. We've got it got to keep in perspective there, how much they know about you. It's not an attack on you. It's an attack on their perception of, of what's happening, which is entirely different than on you. So I love that what would you say your your secret? If you have like a specific habit, mindset or behavior that you have participated in regularly to build your legacy? What would you say that is and how could we adopt that into our lives?Yeah, so it's really I'm a big fan of positive habits. So having a strict morning routine. Having a strict nighttime routine? And then and then self reflection. Am I improving? Going back to what I said earlier? Am I a better person than I was yesterday? Am I smarter than I was yesterday? Am I more skilled in this area than I was yesterday? And if you just do that day in and day out, I forgot the exact numbers are. But I think if you if you improve 1% each day after 70 days, then you're twice as good as you were before. That's been the biggest thing for me again, personal growth.Yeah, no, I love that. It's awesome. So how could we support you if we wanted to get in touch with you? Let's say we have a course that we want to create. Or we'd like to maybe take part and see what see what courses you helped to create and just take part in some of those that you've already helped create for other people. Do you have a list of all the companies you've worked with? And so we'd go cruising back. Oh, yeah, he's helped dessert. I'd like that type, of course. And where do we get in touch with that and how do we get more involved with what you're doing?Yeah. So nice and simple, best ways to get around. My website Billy bras calm b i ll y VR OSS calm. And yeah, there's a bunch of case studies on there. And you can see a lot of the courses that I've worked with and a lot of the niches that I've worked in, you can hop on my email newsletter, I send out a almost daily email newsletter. I'm a huge fan of email marketing as a channel. I just think it's the most intimate, personal way to communicate but I do it very differently than how most people do it. So So yeah, that's that's a very popular.Okay, cool. So here's the here's the last two sections on my podcast are some of my favorite. So this this second last section is called legacy on rapid fire kind of like a game show. But there's, there's no right or wrong answers. But there's five questions. And we're looking for one word, one sentence answers. I may ask you to clarify any one answer at any given time.Fair enough. Let's do it.Awesome. So legacy on rapidfire number one, what do you believe is holding you back from reaching the new Next level of your legacy.Hmm.sorting the great opportunities from the good opportunities. That's the constant challenge.That is and what have you found to help you in that endeavor?There's actually I actually have a really tactical thing that I use. It's a formula that I've discovered by Brendon Burchard. And I can't remember the little complicated, but you essentially look at everything that goes into an opportunity, the resources, the time, the money, the sanity, that you need to invest into it, and see if the payoff. So the financial payoff, the doors that it opens and how it fits into your lifestyle, how those balance out, it's kind of like a scale. So it's not perfect, but it's a good framework to use to evaluate opportunities highly recommended. No, that's awesome. I agree that you have tohave some formula of determining how You spend your time and where you spend your time. And I talked about it from a perspective of, you've got to become the CEO of your own life. And that's the CEOs job to determine like, hey, which contracts we're getting in? How are we increasing the value to our shareholders, if it doesn't weigh in the favor of increasing the value to our shareholders, now worth my time, and, and being able to hold that standard to yourself and for others, it's a nice school concept. I love it. It'll be a book one day, but like that might be a course before it becomes a book. I'll see. So what do you think the hardest thing you've ever accomplished has been to this point,running a marathon?I haven't done that. So I will, that I would tend toseegoes to the head and then like 10 or 11 years old, and had no not no intention of running this half marathon. On, but my, we were all showing up. We all showed up to support my family and my older sister who had been training while she was warming up that day, she pulled a muscle or something so she couldn't run. And so she's like, Well, does anybody else want to and I was like, I have two or three other brothers who are running. So I, you know, like sketcher Skechers. The shoes had like a leather, almost like nice, classy leather. Skechers shoes. That's what I had on. And I was like, y'all run? Why not? So I ended up running this half marathon in Skechers shoes. I was like 10 or 11. I was like, That will never happen again. So I haven't ever thought to brave another half marathon and

Wait. What? What the f...I mean, did you see that? I totally didn't expect it, well maybe I did a little, but I never expected the movie to go there! This week, J and Q get their minds blown by the Top 5 Mind F*ck Movies of all time! Whether it's crazy twists, maniacal movie executions, or just the simple mindf*ck that is time travel, no stone gets left unturned in our search for the craziest that movies have to offer. Stick around for some amazing MumbleQuote MushMouth gaming, and deep dives into truly what gets underneath Q and J's skin. It's a wild ride and trust us, it doesn't end up where you think it will. Come along!

Modern social media means anyone can reach out and connect with other stroke and brain injury survivors. And we are part of an amazing community. Instagram is where I first encounter stroke survivor and entrepreneur Ella Sofia. We met through an Instagram Live video she did with Joe Borges of the Neuro Nerds podcast. Ella survived two strokes when she was 14. I’m glad she tells story for several reasons. One though, is the reminder that kids can have strokes. A lot of folks don’t realize that. If you’d like to learn more about stroke in kids, you can listen to my conversation from 2019 with Dr. Heather Fullerton Another important element is that Ella was athletic and still had her stroke. Being active and healthy with good blood pressure reduces your chances of having a stroke, but it doesn’t eliminate it. A number of guests on the show have been healthy, young and had a stroke. Sometimes it’s for an obvious reason (after the fact) like the Arteriovenous Malformation (AVM) Ella experienced, and sometimes we may never know, which was the case with Whitney Morean. So why bother getting in shape? First of all, a healthy body  does still reduce the odds of stroke even if it doesn’t guarantee that it won’t happen. Second, it makes recovery faster and more complete. Bio Ella Sofia, Habit Coach is a content creator at www.retrainyourbrain.ca. In January 2008, at the age of 14, Ella suffered a hemorrhagic stroke due to an AVM rupture in her cerebellum.  About 9 years after her injury, through a long process of self-care and self-reflection, she finally and thankfully realized that mental rehabilitation is just as, if not more important than physical rehabilitation.  Now, she specializes in the mind’s role in habit creation to help others with their mental rehab and ultimately help others use habit to simplify their personal growth. Ella received a Master of Arts, Sociology degree from the University of Waterloo in 2018.  Her research revolved around risk management, resilience, and security in Canada airports.  She spent nearly 3 years working for the Canadian government in national security while completing her degree.  During her time with the government she realized that the resilience of the airports and structures she was studying was not so different from the resilience of the mind.  This realization lead her to integrate many of the concepts and practices learned from her research into her coaching today. What is an AVM? An AVM is a misconfiguration of blood vessels. Instead of arteries gradually leading to smaller and smaller capillaries that then lead to larger and fewer blood vessels and into veins,  in an AVM, that network of capillaries doesn’t develop properly. The blood vessel can’t properly regulate and withstand the blood pressure. Eventually, it can fail. That results in a brain bleed — a hemorrhagic stroke. Here is an article that talks about it in greater detail. Changing Habits Habits — good or bad — are unconscious behaviors. To change them we first have to make ourselves conscious of the context of the habit. Ella talks about how to do that. When you feel the urge to engage in a bad habit, stop, ask yourself some questions and take some notes. Who? Who are you with or thinking about? What? What are you doing at the moment? What is going on? Don’t worry if it doesn’t seem connected to your habit. Just make note of it. Where? Where are you? Make note of it. Get specific about where you are in your home or in the world. When? When did the urge happen? Note the time or other temporal queues, What are you feeling? What sort of mood are you in? What other things are you worried about? You don’t have to do all the analysis. Just start by making note of these things. As you collect data, you’ll start to see trends. Then the work can start. Links Ella Sofia’s website http://retrainyourbrain.ca Ella on Instagram http://instagram.com/ellasssofia Ella on Twitter http://twitter.com/ellasssofia Ella on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ellasssofia/ Ella on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ella-sofia-5845bb175/ Ella on Goodreads http://goodreads.com/ellasssofia Ella on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-HWP8LcCycox4OB1N2tXnw Book a Consultation https://retrainyourbrain.ca/book-a-consultation/ Joe Borges on Strokecast http://Strokecast.com/NeuroNerds The NeuroNerds Podcast https://theneuronerds.com/ My Stroke of Insight http://drjilltaylor.com/book.html Pediatric STROKE ON strokecast http://Strokecast.com/pediatricstroke AVM Information https://www.totalhealth.co.uk/clinical-experts/mr-christos-tolias/arteriovenous-malformation-avms-faqs Where do we go from here? Visit http://retrainyourbrain.ca to learn more about Ella and her work. Share this episode on your favorite social platform by using the link http://strokecast.com/ella Subscribe to Strokecast in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. Don’t get best…get better Strokecast is the stroke podcast where a Gen X stroke survivor explores rehab, recovery, the frontiers of neuroscience and one-handed banana peeling by helping stroke survivors, caregivers, medical providers and stroke industry affiliates connect and share their stories.

Diane Dayton  This is changing the rules, a podcast about designing the life you want to live, hosted by KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world.KC Dempster  Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Changing the Rules. I'm KC Dempster. And I'm here with Ray Loewe on Wildfire Radio, talking to you about changing the rules. And all through our lives, people have been giving us rules. First, it was our parents then teachers jumped in, and then the church and employers and I'm sure there are a lot of other people who've been setting rules as well. And these rules were meant to control us, but usually in a positive way. They were meant to give us structure and guidance and to protect us. But over time, a lot of the rules lose their relevance for us and they can become restrictive. Our podcast, Changing the Rules is designed to help us build our own set of rules, those that are important to us and work for us. We all need a set of rules, but they need to be rules that that relate to what we're doing in our lives, our rules. And when we change the rules to our rules, we become free, free to be ourselves.Ray Loewe  and what's better than being free to be ourselves, I might add. Okay, so I'm Ray Loewe and I am the luckiest guy in the world. And I have been tracking and studying luckiest people in the world for most of my adult life. And I found out that changing the rules is one of the major sets of attributes, attitudes and actions that are part of what makes up the luckiest people in the world. So I'm the luckiest people in the world I've been infatuated with because there are these people always seem to have it all together. You know, and and even when you look at them, they have an aura of luck about them and they're the kind of people you want to hang out with. And they're the kind of people you want to be Some people think these people are naturally lucky on my research says this is not true. They're not born lucky at all. And what they've done is they've developed this set of attitude attributes and actions that are learned and develop and apply. And they're not naturally changing the rules is one of them. But there are more. Now I'm going to get tongue twisted a number of times here because we've introduced this concept of attitude, attributes and actions to three days. So I'm going to try and get right KC and you can jump in and correct me if I get it wrong. But what do you define the luckiest people in the world. I define them as those people that personally designed their own lives. They step in and take control of their own lives, and they live their own life to the max. And they use this set of attributes, attitudes and actions to do this. Today we're going to introduce a new attribute here. And what we're going to talk about is that the luckiest people in the world know what they want. That's an interesting concept if you start thinking about it, because if you don't know what you want, how are you ever going to get it? All right? If you don't know what you want, how you gonna know when you get there, and then I'm confounded by the fact that it's a complex world and how the heck do you know what you want?KC Dempster  Right? Yeah, there are a lot of choices.Ray Loewe  Okay, what's your choices? Well, we have a guest expert with us today. My name is Tammi Brannan And we're going to bring her on in a minute. And I have to tell you that she is one of the luckiest people in the world. Right now from the get go. And we're going to take a short break here so that everybody knows who they're listening to. And when we come back, we're going to introduce Tammi and she is going to just kind of tear this whole thing apart and make us understandDiane Dayton  You're listening to changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.Ray Loewe  All right, I think we're back. You know, the short breaks are nice, but I think we have to tell everybody that they're listening to the right people. So Tammi Brannan, you're on the line. I hope. I Hi,Tammi Brannan  Ray. Hi, KC. How are you? Good to see you.Good to see that you're in your cafe in Paris. That's lovely.Ray Loewe  You can see this the rest of the world we're on a podcast here so we're hiding. Right. And the beauty of this is, guess what? We don't have to have our hair done. You know, I don't know about you, ladies, but mine's getting pretty long and scraggly and usually I keep it shaved down to the bare metal Ah, butKC Dempster  he's going to have a mullet before we know it.Ray Loewe  Whatever. So Tammi is joining us from the great state of Oregon. Right?Tammi Brannan  Absolutely.Ray Loewe  And we're at some ungodly hour in the morning there at this point in time, but but she's a farm girl. So she's awake, and she's with us. And Tammy, take a minute and tell us a little bit about this blueprint process. I could probably do it, but I'm not gonna do it as well as you do. And I have to say before you start, I'm the beneficiary of it. I've gone through it.Tammi Brannan  Well, it's interesting. You talked earlier about knowing what you want to be, that's what the blueprint process does. It helps you identify what it is that you want. You refer to me as a lucky one of the luckiest people in the world. And I very much appreciate that. And and I think it is because I know what I want, but it's taken me a long time. I'm 50 years old, and I started this process at 36 years old still not knowing what I wanted. And it's taken me up to this point. And I still feel like I've got more to go. And that's what's so exciting about life as an adventure is you're just constantly starting this feedback loop in your life where you know something, you learn something about yourself, you put it out there in your world, and it comes back to you is feedback and you recognize from that feedback, what fits and what doesn't fit. And then you, you try again, you put more back out there, and every time it's this evolutionary cycle that just continues to grow, and you get more and more clear on what you want, and how to be the luckiest person in your own life.Ray Loewe  You know, I think one of the problems with this is when you talk about people knowing what they want, is it's not a static thing. So I really think you just sit down and you plan and you figure out what I want, and then it kind of stays there. And that's not true at all right?Tammi Brannan  Right. Right, that leads to stagnation, which we know there's really no such thing as stagnation. You're either growing or you're dying. Right, right?Ray Loewe  Yeah. Okay, so So when you look at this and you, you say, how do you start? So? So? That's the question. How do you start? I don't know what to say.Tammi Brannan  Yeah, it's it's an enigma, isn't it? I mean, it feels like we should know, you know, we go through 12 years of education and sometimes even more you think that we would know we would come to this planet with some kind of owner's manual where it's super clear what our blueprint is and what we want in our lives and so forth. But I think that process of learning and discovering as necessary, we get some tough skin along the way, we get some humility along the way. And we learn more and more about ourselves. As you pointed out, it's an ongoing thing. I do have some what I refer to as blueprint hacks that do help a person self study, but it is challenging to do so. We are so close to who we are It is hard to see the forest for the trees. And so it takes outside perspectives to look in on us and help us really identify how we are unique in a sea of humanity.KC Dempster  Yeah, I know, personally that I'm, you know, I'm a little bit older than you are. And growing up, I don't know if it was societal or cultural. But you, you were not necessarily encouraged to care about what you wanted. You were supposed to follow these rules, and, you know, follow the societal blueprint. And you know, it's really hard sometimes. And I think that the even people that are younger than I am still faced it or are facing it, because it's just a mindset that a lot of people have is that you have to, you know, you're you're you are this and this is what you need to do. Yep.Tammi Brannan  Yep. Well said, it really goes well with the whole introduction that you gave about rules and other people setting rules for us. I mean, and like you said, it's well intentioned, but from our parents, to pastors to older siblings to school, there's just the sense that there's this model that you're supposed to fit in. And even after school, you're supposed to go to college or get married and have 2.3 Kids white picket fence job until you're 60. And then, you know, all that crud and, and it's hard to gain the confidence that you know what, now, in order to be the luckiest person in the world, you have to challenge those rules. You have to say which of these all of these really fit me and work for me?KC Dempster  Yeah, that's great. Okay,Ray Loewe  so how do we do this? So you know, you've gotten rid of one myth and that makes me feel better and I think it makes everybody feel better. It's it you don't sit down and decide who you are what you want. You just don't do that. You make some guesses at it. So what what's the process to start? Here I am I have no idea. Take me under your Land start with me.Tammi Brannan  All right. So first of all, I would say gain that confidence that in order to be the luckiest person in the world, you have to find your own way. And that is a little scary, that can be a little daunting, and recognize that not everybody does that, right? That's why they don't do it. Because it is kind of daunting to fly in the face of what everyone is telling you is right for you. How do they know? So recognizing, first of all, that you are your own genius, and you do know you can figure it out? So my super easy blueprint hack is Watch Your energy. Where does it spike? Where does it tank. If you watch that, you can literally do a diary tracking not only activities, but also relationships, obligations, volunteer, everything that you do in your life, from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed, track your energy, and real simply, I have people ranking on a scale of zero to five, five, being energy's really high after doing this particular activity. or interacting with this person, my energy is super high, all the way to zero which is oh my gosh, when can this thing and I drained of all joy right now. So zero to five then if you do that for honestly, the longer you do it the better, you know, but I say at least like a week to get a pretty good sense. And again, you're tracking personal professional, volunteer activities, relationships, everything. And then once you get this data, you can start to see a pattern where your energy is spiking or maintaining high at high level. It's an indicator to you that you're in what athletes often refer to as the zone. Okay, because each of us has a zone. It's not just those professional, highly paid athletes, all of us have a zone and it is in our blueprint when we're using our natural stuff. We're in our zone and our energy is maintained at a high level. So when you're trying racking that energy you can see when you're using your blueprint. And when you're not. And to become the luckiest person in the world, all you got to do is rearrange your life just slowly, one bite at a time, just like you'd eat an elephant. Right? just slowly get to a place where at least 80% of your day is in fours and fives on that scale.Ray Loewe  Wow. So I have to eat an elephant as part of this process. Yeah.Tammi Brannan  Yeah, one bite at a time, right? You can handle that.Ray Loewe  Okay, so if I'm sitting here and I'm saying, okay, I want to kickstart my life. There's, there's something that's not right here. I've been living under everybody else's rules all my life. They've been telling me what to do. And it's okay. I'm living their life and I don't have to think too much, right. I just do what everybody tells me to do, but it's not very fun now. So when I'm doing this, why energy is probably not the bottom right. I track this at a start tabulating where I see these spikes. Okay, then what?Tammi Brannan  Yeah. So what you're looking for is you're basically like a scientist studying yourself. So you got to kind of dawn that lab coat and that monocle and look from the outside in. So you're studying the data to look for what your blueprint actually is to give you insights on how to start, basically reconstructing your life. You can also look at yourself like a contractor who's doing a remodeling on a building, you're remodeling your life one room at a time. So if there's a relationship where your energy is really tanking, look at it objectively, if possible, like a scientist and study ask yourself because this is exactly what I did for me, is I asked myself what is missing in this relationship that makes my energy tank or what is missing in this job that's making my energy tank Just by studying anything that's ranking three or lower, is indicative of something that needs to change. And by studying the fours and fives, and studies the threes in low studying the threes and lowers, you can start to identify characteristics that are in the fours and fives and apply them to the things that are ranking three or lower. And basically what you're doing is you're starting to understand who you are, again, where your zone is, and how you can you'll get ideas, you'll get these little tiny steps that you can take that will take those threes and lower ranking and slowly next step them up to the fours and fives.Ray Loewe  Okay, so so once you observe all this, that's kind of part one, you figure out who you are and what makes you tick and what excites you. Why right there, what excites you? Yeah, and the whole idea is get rid of the drop dead, dead tears you down, start working more on the things that excite you, okay, so that's great, but now we have the whole rest of the world, telling us You can't do that. Right? Absolutely. Yep. So, so we have to make a change here. And, you know, I can see right now we're going to need about 10 podcasts with you not getting, we're not going to get enough time to do this. So I think what we're going to do is the mission that we learned in this particular adventure with you is that you track your energy, you see what excites you, what doesn't you make a list, and that starts to set out where you want to go. What? What is step one in designing your own life?Tammi Brannan  right? Absolutely. Amen.Ray Loewe  Okay. All right. KC, do you have any last questions because we're getting up against a ton of work here.KC Dempster  No, I don't. I think that this is really helpful. And I guess the the hardest thing is to kind of open people's minds. So hopefully the series is going to do that.Ray Loewe  Okay, so I think what we're going to do is we're going to end this particular session now, and we're going to have you back and we're going to record several of these. And in fact, I think what we're going to try to do is do one so that we can hear them back to back here, cuz Ah, Tammy wisdom is good wisdom. Ray, I'm honored. Okay, so show Tammy, thank you for being with us today. And Bobby back with Morgan information.Diane Dayton  You're listening to changing the rules with Casey Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.KC Dempster  Welcome back, everybody. And I wanted to take a minute to say that the luckiest people aren't born lucky. We've agreed on that. But they do live exciting and fulfilling lives. We believe it's because they've made the commitment to learn how to be lucky, but it's not just enough to To make the one time commitment, it's a continuing process. It's a journey. And sometimes even lucky people get hit by life events that derail their journey and they need. I'm sorry to say this a rope of hope to get out of limbo. The nature of being lucky in itself creates change. Most lucky people look to continuously expand their opportunities and their lives. This means meeting new lucky people sharing experiences, and learning from the experts and adjusting their own lives. So Ray, how do you learn to be lucky and stay lucky?Ray Loewe  Well, the first thing you do is learn about the rope of hope. You mean Oh, yeah, I put that in there on purpose because I thought that would die that derail you this morning and add a little levity to our, our podcast. But what we're talking about here is to stay lucky and be lucky. You have to do some things and we've set this all out for you. So the first thing you want to do is subscribe and really changing the rules. And you're going to hear people like Tammy, one of the luckiest people in the world. And she's going to talk to you about how she changed your life. And and what are the things that she did to become luckier and luckier and luckier. And then the next thing you're going to do is you're going to target our friends connection of that. Right now, we're not doing a real French Connection event this year, we usually do a big one day workshop, where we get the luckiest people in the world together. And we exchange ideas and we we get some great speakers in to keep us on track for being lucky and lucky or unlucky or, but we are doing some virtual ones. And you're going to want to stay tuned and go to our website to do that. We'll give you that address in a couple minutes. We also do every year French travel connection. That's a trip where we actually get a chance to go and see the world through the eyes of other lucky people as well as ourselves. It's an amazing An amazing event is being postponed because of our virus right now a little bit, but we're going to bring it back with a vengeance. We have several books that can help you get started. And you can take one of our discovery session courses, which will help you become lucky and luckier and luckier. But the big thing is stay tuned to www the luckiest guy in the world.com. And that's where you can get updates on things and stay tuned to changing the rules where next week we'll be back with a great guest one of the luckiest people in the world, and he or she are going to tell you what to do to become luckier and luckier and luckier. So we'll see you next week, everybody.Diane Dayton  Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a podcast designed to help you live your life the way you want, and give you what you need to make it happen. Join us in two weeks Our next exciting topics on changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world.  

Hi! In today's episode I will be covering -Travel Checklist in the COVID-19(Planes are recycling WHAT?)-What to pack beforehand to ensure you are safe and calm before take-off-What to do during security, gate entry, and in the cabin-The cheapest and environmentally safe ways to protect yourself and others in this pandemicBonus Tips! -Avoid what in airports?!Links as mentioned:Cheap hand santizer https://www.dhgate.com/product/30ml-60ml-pet-plastic-bottle-with-flip-cap/529670006.html?f=bm%7cGMC%7cpla%7c1471809117%7c59782623991%7c529670006%7cpla-296303633664%7c011016007%7cUS%7cfushenmaoyi%7cc%7c2%7c&utm_source=pla&utm_medium=GMC&utm_campaign=fushenmaoyi&utm_term=529670006&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3Mqs6NfO6QIVhobACh0jvAZ6EAQYBCABEgJas_D_BwESocial Media ⇣Instagram: catieeelalaTik Tok: catieeelala23Twitter: catieeelala

Hi, I'm Tom Rhodes, CEO of Spencer Health Solutions. Our podcast guest today is Joseph Kim, who is a member of the digital health office at Eli Lilly and the host of Lilly's podcast, The Elixir Factor. On our podcast, he talks about digital health innovation, the IBD challenge, sponsored by Eli Lilly, his podcast and cross-departmental drug development. We're proud to welcome a fellow podcaster to "People Always, Patients Sometimes". Janet Kennedy (00:34): Welcome to the "People Always, Patients Sometimes" podcast, a presentation of Spencer Health Solutions. Healthcare has come to a crossroads and it's time to start listening to new ideas that challenge our "always done it that way" thinking we hope you enjoy our conversations with the disruptors, the innovators and the transformers in clinical trials and healthcare. With me today is Joseph Kim from Eli Lilly. He has a title that's quite a mouthful. Senior advisor, digital health office, translational technology and innovation and we're going to talk about all of those things on the podcast today. Joe, welcome to the conversation. Joe Kim (01:12): It's great to be here. Janet, thanks for having me. I know it's been a little bit of a challenge to get our schedules to line up, but we're here now. Janet Kennedy (01:19): And I'm absolutely thrilled to have you here. We talk about you a lot over at the office because you are putting out a lot of great new ideas on your podcast, which we're going to talk about in a little bit and at events, conferences and trade shows. You're often a keynote or panelist member, but also imagine you're doing some pretty exciting things that Eli Lilly. You've certainly had a couple of changes in your title in the past few years, so things are very exciting where you are and I'd love for you to tell me a little bit about your history and how you got to Eli Lilly and then what you're doing now. Joe Kim (01:53): Yeah, sure. I mean I've only been at Lilly for about five and a half years, a little longer than that, which is a long time for me at any one company, but a very short time for anyone at Lilly. A lot of people who joined the company are there for 2030 35 years. So I'm still, despite for me, this being the longest role I've had at any one company, it's short time for others, so I still feel like the new kid on the block, but I joined their clinical innovation group when it was still in forest and that was run by Jeff Kasher who was the VP and well known in the industry. Still has, he hasn't faded into the background after leaving Lily, so he's still got his fingers in a number of pies helping other clinical research entrepreneurs and other pharma folks. I think I'm making sense of how to do things better. Janet Kennedy (02:41): Does that mean you have an intrepreneurial system going on at Eli Lilly where you are sort of embracing that spirit of entrepreneurship within the company? Joe Kim (02:50): Yes, but that's not really about how the company is set up, but there is plenty of room for people with that kind of ambition to develop new things and make the place better and better. Which is kind of a hallmark quote from our founder, which was to make Lilly a better and better place as you work here. So there's no like formal mechanism to do that per se, but everyone is encouraging it. It often happens and Jeff was one of those guys, created a big function where we spent a few years really focusing a lot of resources on trying to make clinical research to revolutionize it. And so that was, that was a great run for me. I did that for about three and a half years and then the company sort of switched gears to start trying to get some of these innovations in place so you can only dream for so long before you have to actually get some stuff done and apply it. Joe Kim (03:42): So there was a transformation that happened awhile back and I ended up moving into something called the design hub. In my role there for about a year was patient experience and design innovation, which is really about helping all the molecule teams figure out how to do things from a patient experience. Everything from awareness to recruitment to participation in learning. Anything we could do responsibly as it pertained to patients after the study, which is a thorny issue for a lot of good reasons. And then most recently in may, I moved into the digital health office shortly thereafter, started the podcast. So I'm always taking on new challenges and it's been a really great ride so far. Janet Kennedy (04:23): Well that's the definition of an exciting job, right? Where things are evolving and changing and new challenges come your way. But tell me what is the digital health office? Joe Kim (04:32): Yeah, the digital health office was born last year and it's basically a new team of a bunch of different kinds of folks, UX designers, developers, commercial strategists, and my group, which is translational technology and innovation and the remit has kind of evolved over time. It's a bit like a startup company within the company. And at first we were trying to figure out really the way to bring new digital health solutions to patients and doctors and health systems and that sort of thing. But we've also realized that you can't turn your back on digital health for drug development either. And so now we have these two sides of our work that we're really excited about and can reinforce each other. So for example, if you figure out a digital biomarker for a new way to measure drug efficacy, that could be repurposed as a, as part of a total digital health solution for a similar disease or something of that sort. Joe Kim (05:34): I can't talk in too much detail about those sorts of things, but I can give you some sort of hypothetical examples. So for example, if we think about asthma, is there a way you could forecast some sort of asthmatic flare using a bunch of different sensors and real world data and can you start to develop drugs that can alleviate those flares before they happen? Sounds great and you can use this to help the drug development process, but then it could also be part of a total digital solution where it's coupled with an inhaler or some sort of other mobile app that works in conjunction with the drug to do a lot more than just deliver medicine. We don't do anything in asthma, so I pick that as a safe topic. But you, you sort of can hopefully it gives you a sense of what the digital health office is here for Janet Kennedy (06:23): Would I be correct in assuming you're not trying to reinvent the wheel and design digital apps from the ground up, that you're actually looking for companies or startups to partner with to look at their technology? Joe Kim (06:36): Well, me personally, I don't do any of that actually. So translational technology and innovation is something slightly different, which I'll get into in a moment, but I'll say this much, as a company, we want to obviously use the best ideas and that doesn't mean we shut ourselves off from those ideas that are already out there in the world. We acquire companies, we in licensed compounds, and there's no reason why we wouldn't also consider external innovation as well. In fact, we just finished a external innovation challenge in IBD. That winner was selected last year. We actually have a podcast episode on that story itself, so you'll hear more about that hopefully in the next couple of weeks. Janet Kennedy (07:18): The IBD challenge was really fascinating and when I read through all the applicants, which I don't know, I'm even guessing 60 or more, they were so different from physical products to supportive apps, to medication delivery systems, to support groups and peer groups. It was fascinating how many different ways people imagined how to solve the problem of the IBD challenge. Joe Kim (07:43): Yeah, and that's a, that's a therapeutic area that hasn't gotten a lot of attention compared to something like diabetes, let's say with regard to helping patients use technology to help them manage their condition. So yeah, it was a good sort of new space for us and the general community to sink their teeth into. Janet Kennedy (08:03): All right. And I don't want you to have to give away any secrets here of your future podcast episode. But what was the technology that won? What was the idea? Joe Kim (08:11): It's mostly in the public domain. The technology was very simply a VR virtual reality format for children to focus their ability to understand their disease in a way that made sense to them. And specifically after some sort of colonoscopy or invasive procedure that they couldn't get their heads around and leaving that procedure in the fog that they're in. And then trying to learn about what just happened and understand the disease was just a big gap left in the whole health system. And that's no one's fault. It's just some unfortunate set of circumstances that leaves the patient kind of in the dark, so to speak. So this virtual reality application is supposed to really help a patient see exactly inside themselves and understand their disease up close and personal. Janet Kennedy (09:02): Well for children being sick is so frightening and some of the procedures they go through are uncomfortable if not painful. And the more they can try to understand at their level, the better off they're going to be. What was your role with the IBD challenge? Did that come out of your group? Joe Kim (09:19): No. So yeah, our group is pretty, pretty broad and it covers a bunch of different verticals that are required to bring digital health life. Our group is actually translational technology and innovation is really focused on sensor driven digital biomarker development. My team doesn't build apps. What we try and do is look for all the various sensors out there and you know, there are dozens of them. This is not just Fitbit and Apple watch. There's dozens of sensors out there that are all perfect, so to speak. Meaning they all behave a little bit differently. They have different combinations of sensors. They sample at different frequencies. Their battery lives are different, their charging modalities are different, their form factors are different. And what I mean by that, they're all perfect is depending on what you're trying to study, what you're trying to measure, there may be the right device for you. Joe Kim (10:09): Don't think that one device is perfect for all indications and sometimes there are these invisible so to speak. So the sensors that you don't have to wear but are monitoring you in the home. Well that's great too except you know many people leave their homes so for certain diseases and measurements it's not that useful. But if you're going to measure things that happen at night in the home then great. It's even better. So this is part of what our team does is make sense of all those sensors and help figure out new ways to measure things using those sensors. Our team is pretty diverse. It includes biomedical engineers, behavioral scientists, physician scientists, clinical research, operations professionals, data engineers. We're really excited about the team we've put together. I think for too long it's been teams that are just commercially focused or teams that are just technology focused or teams that are just sort of clinical research focused. We believe you can't do this properly unless you have that multidisciplinary team and everyone needs to start learning about each other's worlds because you can't just throw a Fitbit in a study and expect to make hay out of that. If you don't do it responsibly rigorously and understand exactly what you're getting into. Janet Kennedy (11:26): All right, so that leads me to a bookend to question. One is it kind of starts with as you refer protocol design that that if the study isn't written to accommodate this digital technology, then it's kind of hard to squeeze it in later in the trial. You're now working with patients. So I'm curious about protocol designers. Are they part of your team and how are you engaging patients in the evaluation and use of any of this technology? Joe Kim (11:54): To the extent that we are all sort of that protocol designers aren't a role and that we all design them as teams. Yeah, so as a team, because we're focused on this squarely and not, I say this with respect, not distracted by developing a medicine. We're all hired just to do digital biomarker work. We do this together. As you can imagine sometimes doing this early work is a square peg in a round hole, so we've had to really work the system to make sure that the other controls that are around protocol development for us to do this responsibly are sort of dialed into what we're trying to do. We're not giving some money an interventional drug where we don't have to look for a safety signal for that interventional drug. So there's lots of different nuances there. We work hard to really figure out how this will land operationally or pragmatically for a patient, particularly if we do it virtually, and we do a lot of virtual trials too, which is easier to do now because there's no drug, there's no medical procedures. Joe Kim (12:59): In short, you're mailing them a device or devices to where and they have to use apps to participate in the research and the data that gets pulled passively. But as simple as that is, it can be quite a learning process when you start to deploy these things. Something as simple as the way a question is ordered either together on the screen or not can create a lot of confusion. Or you know, if the battery is not charged and they don't know that it's not charged and the data's not streaming to the phone, right? There's only so much all devices can store certain amount of data before it stops collecting. Totally. So then you can end up with these empty spaces of data. It really depends on what you're trying to measure. So if you're trying to measure sleep, maybe a wrist worn thing isn't all that necessary. I don't care about what's happening during the waking hours. You should wear something only at night when it charged during the day. But if you're measuring something like activity and exertion, well then you can take it off at night, right? These are just simple ways to think about it. So it really starts with what you're trying to measure and then you try and design the experiments. Janet Kennedy (14:06): It sounds exciting. This cross functional team that really has kind of a whiteboard open to new innovation ideas. I love that. But it seems to me that's not going to happen unless your C suite is on board. So is this top down or did you guys push up and say we need to have this? Joe Kim (14:26): Yeah, this was a top down approach. Well, not from the very top of the very top. You know our C suite styled into this. It's not easy to just start a new thing called a digital health office and have that be publicly known. So when that happens you can bet that it goes all the way up to the top. You did ask another question around like how we get patients involved. Fortunately here at Lilly we have a pretty good history bringing patients into our drug development design work. You may have heard of something called Co-Lab or Co-Design. It's still happening now, but two of my great colleagues, Megan Laker and Susan Gilchrist, they are at Lilly running that capability now. We actually have a podcast episode on that too. I think it might be podcast number 11 at any rate, and we go into a deep dive of what that actually looks like, but in a nutshell, what that means is we literally bring patients into the company and we sit them down with the scientists and other site personnel and we work through the real issues of how this research may play out on people's lives. Joe Kim (15:32): We start off with a whole empathy session around, you know, what is a day in the life, a week in the life, a year in the life as it pertains to a study and really try and overlay some study design concepts and see where some of these things match up or don't. There's not like a recipe to it. It's really, it starts with empathy and listening and then really great dialogue around trade offs, which surveys can't do, right? You can't do this through a questionnaire or discussion board. It's gotta be live. It's messy. So we'll be using that framework as well or some version of that and just riding their coattails because they've been doing this for a while now. Janet Kennedy (16:12): Well, I understand you also had a podcast episode that I listened to having to do with matching up employees at Eli Lilly who had very serious health issues with individuals in other countries and they did a program together. So you know internally you have your own small ecosystem of people as patients. Joe Kim (16:34): Yeah, that was a very interesting episode. Terri Wingham, she was our guest on the episode. She's the founder of a company called A Fresh Chapter and she connects cancer survivors and brings a few from Lily and we go to developing country who needs help in some way and everyone pitches in and it's just a different way to continue one's healing. Yeah, that was a, that was a really amazing episode. Yeah, you should. You should check it out. It sounds like you did, but others should check it out if you haven't hadn't heard it. Janet Kennedy (17:06): Well, every episode you mentioned, I will put a link into this podcast so people can click right over there and see it. And yes, I love that idea that you are a global company, but it was very, very cool that you had your own employees who had had that serious health experience really going and working with folks in another area which made them feel so much more empowered so much outside of themselves. The problem with any health issue, and it's different for everyone, you get so focused on your own health is sometimes you kind of lose sight of the bigger picture. And this sounded like all of those folks really grew and benefited from the experience. Joe Kim (17:50): yeah. And these connections with patients get very deep and we need more folks in the company to build the right kind of relationships where possible. For example, myself, for a long time I've been building relationships with patient influencers and I gotta be honest. While it made sense to me sort of intuitively for awhile I was struggling with the quote unquote business value of doing that because if I was not responsible enough I could step on a landmine, but when the podcast came up as an opportunity and we really thought about what kind of guests we wanted to share, it was clear to us that in a lot of the other science podcasts out there, there was a lot of scientists on there and that's great, you want, you want experts on there, but there was a lack of the patient representation and we decided that that's a voice we wanted to amplify more and we wanted to bring them on together with scientists often to have a deeper dialogue around the state of medical advancements in that specific disease and what's on the horizon. Joe Kim (18:58): I think it's rare that many patients get to sit down with a leading scientist in that field to have some sort of exchange there. To bring it full circle, all of these patients that I've been sort of building relationships with. All of a sudden now I had people to call on and say, Hey, would you like to be on this podcast to talk about this disease that I know you're an influencer or you have a strong audience for? And because I've built that investment, I made that personal investment over the last five or six years. I wasn't coming in cold as some weird pharma guy, Hey, would you like to be on my podcast? And everyone was just super gracious and if they can fit it in, they did. I have plenty more I want to have on the show. It's really great now that wow, there is a quote unquote business value to me, building relationships with patient influencers. They're happy to talk to me on the podcast, which is, which is fantastic. Janet Kennedy (19:56): Well, I was noticing that the last episode of your first season, Episode 11 is the promise of genetic innovation and cracking the code of ALS as a lay person, not a scientist and not a medical professional, I'm coming at my information to medicine literally through social media, through podcasts, through posts that people put up there and I did think this was fascinating that you had both Brian and Sandra with I AM ALS representing a patient centric viewpoint coming on your podcast and then you also spoke to your Lilly scientist Andrew Adams about some very sciency stuff. That's something I will admit I can't pull off, but I love the fact that you are able to be the interpreter for both groups, enabling patients to speak to scientists and scientists to explain to patients the complexities of of these diseases. Joe Kim (20:48): We partly just got really lucky there in terms of the timing because Brian was in town, but he's really well known in the Alice community and Andrew is just focused on some really exciting genetic modalities to think about helping a number of diseases because this isn't just focused on neurodegeneration. We really want to try and do more of that where we get patients to actually sit down and because they were there across the table from each other and it was really great to have that kind of interaction. We may even do it a little bit more purposefully and just have it just be about the disease and where it's going from a medical, scientific perspective. Certainly not every episode needs to be that way, nor nor do we want to always do those things, but the more we can do that, I think that's a really exciting format because you don't see that. I haven't come across the science podcast that way either. So yeah, this has been super exciting to do. Looking forward to the next several episodes coming up, Janet Kennedy (21:44): You had 11 episodes in your first season. Are you going to do this quarterly, semi-annually? What? What's your plan for the podcast? Joe Kim (21:52): We only launched in May, I think we recorded earlier than that. I think we're really going to shoot for once a month and we've already started recording late last year and early this year because of who we are. It has to go through a pretty rigorous process to make sure we're not getting into trouble for saying the wrong sorts of things, but you know, we're not talking about products. We're really just talking about stories that inspire scientific advancement. We can all identify with some of these diseases because there are people in our lives to have these things. Nearly everything that's been on the show, you know, I've, I've had some sort of personal connection with one of these illnesses. It's great to use some of my background that I've ditched in my early career. I was a science teacher and while I loved to teach working in a school environment, a traditional school environment was just, it didn't fit me. But to your point about having scientists and patients come together, they don't often talk the same language. I mean patients are really sophisticated now, but there is a certain level of biology that if you understand it more deeply, you'll get even more out of it. And then scientists, they've been talking to each other for so long, you know, they're using $5 words that no one else really uses. So if I can be that interpreter, that's really a great place for me to be. Janet Kennedy (23:12): And that's a challenge, not just on the pharma side. That's a challenge in healthcare when physicians are explaining issues to their patients, you know, are they speaking in plain language? Are they easily understood? As a matter of fact, I did an interview with your global health literacy person and that was the focus that we've got to put this information out in a way that people can understand it and take action with it. Joe Kim (23:37): Yeah, I mean just say the word rash, right. Don't, don't use the Latin words that that the five different Latin words that describe rash. Just saying rash. Right, or it works versus it's not working. Janet Kennedy (23:51): Absolutely. Well, tell me a little bit about where you think we're going in clinical trials. When you joined the pharma industry in the late nineties early two thousands you had one experience. If somebody were coming into the industry now, I'm sure it's a totally different experience. So over your 20 years or so, what do you see that has really changed in the industry? Joe Kim (24:14): The use of data to make decisions has been really transformational. I think I recall one of my earliest clinical trials I was working on and we were selecting which sites to go to. We literally had a stack of resumes that'd be go through and say A, B and C like yes, maybe no, which is not a great way to pick sites who might be useful or great at enrolling and conducting the trial. So even from a site selection standpoint, you're using more data to think about who's been really great in the past. Do they have access to patients? What does their demographic look like? So using a lot more data to do that. And then even further upstream thinking about medical informatics to design the patient eligibility criteria. So in the past you'd just be looking for, "give us all men who asked for directions when they're lost", right? Joe Kim (25:07): Not a lot, but now we have data to say, Hey, we want people on drug A not on drug B with this condition and not, and then let's see if that patient actually exists because that might be a perfect one for this study. But if they don't exist, this is not perfect for anyone. So we can use that kind of data to really find the right trade off between stringent enough criteria so that we find a signal, but at least have a enough abundance of patients. So those two things are been really game changing in terms of how we design protocols and set up the operations to do that. I think a lot of people are also thinking about this notion of a sightless trial or decentralized trial. I don't want to use the word virtual. I think that really means to trial without patients. Joe Kim (25:53): So like a simulated trial. So we should, as an industry get away from this virtual notion. I'm really think a bit more about these centralized to some degree or location flexible is probably more even more accurate. But it's the idea of how does a patient participate in the study without always having to go to the clinic. Janet Kennedy (26:11): How do you feel about the word hybrid? Joe Kim (26:14): Well, I'm not sure what you're hybriding what's the two, but really it's about flexibility and location. That's the name of the game. But you know, if you think about medical research as a set of medical procedures that all have to be done within a window, then you can really start to take apart this notion of a visit, visit, one visit to visit, three, forget to visit. Here are the procedures that need to be done, the activities. So you think of more of like an activity based set of medical procedures. Joe Kim (26:46): Now, which one of those can be done with telemedicine? Which one of those can be done with in home health, which can be done at a clinic, which can be done at retail, right? So not everything can be done at home. Not everything can be done through telemedicine. So it's really thinking about which ones can be done in a variety of, of ways. And even then we've discovered at Lilly through some of our research that a good healthy portion of patients don't want anyone coming into their home. They just don't, and I get that. My home is a mess. On Wednesday, I'd rather just go to the doctor. Now, do I want to go to the doctor to do a visit for three hours? No, but it'd be great to do what I can in that window if it takes me 30 minutes. That's how we have to start. You have to dismantle the visit construct and just think about individual activities. Janet Kennedy (27:35): Now you use the word retail. Are you actually thinking like someone going to a CVS or a Walgreens or a Walmart just to have a simple blood draw done or something like that? Joe Kim (27:45): Sure, that's possible. Right? It has to be done responsibly and rigorously, but even in some of our early pilots of flexible location trials, one of the drugs was marketed, so we were able to have patients pick it up from your local drug store instead of having them come into a site. Now this is a very different kind of study. It wasn't part of the efficacy trial, it was more real world evidence, but at any rate, it can be done under the right context. So it's really just about thinking under what context can X, Y and Z be done versus saying this can't be done, so you have to sort of pick and choose. Janet Kennedy (28:21): Are you seeing enough evidence that it's making a difference that it really can impact either the adherence levels of patients or the persistence of taking a drug by incorporating a variety of different ways to engage with a patient? Joe Kim (28:36): I think we are still trying to get good use cases under our belt. We being the industry in terms of what kinds of trials are fit for this kind of thing. The logical argument makes a lot of sense, right, so there is a logical argument there which is if you don't make it too inconvenient on a patient, they'll do more of it. Right? That's the very same thing to say. Now at the same time, there is a component of clinical research where the bond between the patient and the clinic staff is such that that's also a main contributor for why patients either stay in the study or are able to follow along what they're committed to do. Because you've got someone on the other end expecting you to cross all the T's and dot all the i's, and this is a, this is a component and behavior change. Joe Kim (29:31): There is a social component in behavior change and participating in research is behavior. Change is a social component that if that's there, you're more likely to have people stick to it when that's absent and there's no evidence of a larger connection with a person or people. Sometimes you could get really easy to drop off because guess what? No one's watching. No one cares. A research kit study came out years ago. Stanford, the heart health study. I joined that because it was super easy and I was able to do a lot of the stuff because I suppose super easy. I was walking my kids to the school. I did the six minute walk tests, but then after awhile I stopped doing some things. Now I get reminders. I ignore them. It was actually very easy to drop off without anyone calling me on the carpet. So you could argue that if you do everything virtually, you run the risk of people just disappearing because there's no commitment. There's no gym buddy. Right. To help keep you honest. Janet Kennedy (30:27): Right. Definitely. When we talk about patient engagement, a lot of people will think it's about pushing a button and really it's also making sure that that patient feels like their actions matter. Joe Kim (30:40): That's right. Janet Kennedy (30:41): Tell me a little bit about your road show when you hit the road in 2020 I know you're going to be doing some speaking engagements. What are the topics you're addressing this year? Joe Kim (30:51): Well, because of my role as squarely focused on digital health and sensor research, I have to be careful not to be swimming outside my lane, though I have some knowledge and experience with things and traditional drug research. It's not my role anymore, so I have to be careful to let my other colleagues to represent themselves or our company for those sorts of things and having me kind of stay in my swim lane. While I'm happy to do it, I have to do it with integrity, I guess. So I've actually pulled back a little bit because to be frank, I'm not an expert in digital health and sensor research. I'm an amateur here and that's partly why I took the role is I want to be the dumbest guy in the room. Let me learn and get up to speed and grow my skillset and knowledge base. So I'll do a lot more listening actually this time around. But there's plenty of me on the airwaves through the podcast, so hopefully people aren't going to miss me too much. Janet Kennedy (31:49): Well, I think it's going to be a very exciting year, 2020 or 2020 whatever you want to call it. We're going to have, I think a lot of interesting changes come about as we finally fish or cut bait and we, as an industry, really start to include digital health and new technologies into the clinical trial process. 'm very excited about what's going to be coming up in the next year or two. Joe Kim (32:17): Yeah, me too. I think this notion of digital biomarkers is a key enabler of decentralized trials, right? So one thing that anchors people or science to the clinic is the fact that an endpoint needs to be done by somebody in person. And as long as that happens, you're not going to enroll somebody a hundred miles away. They have to be within a driving distance, reasonable driving distance, except for some exceptions like rare disease and oncology. But for the most part, if you're not in a reasonable driving distance, you're not going to enroll because the primary end point has to be done at the clinic. What digital biomarkers enable is for that to be done remotely through a sensor and now you're not tied to the clinic if you don't want to be. Now I'm generalizing, it's not going to happen for every single kind of study, but that is one thing that is definitely anchoring research to the clinic. So the more digital biomarker work we can get, the faster we can get to decentralized flexible location trials. Janet Kennedy (33:18): Absolutely. Well, I'm voting for that, and I really hope that that's going to be something that becomes much more of a reality going forward so that we can get much better representation in diverse communities and in rural communities involved in our clinical trials. New Speaker (33:34): Yeah, likewise. Janet Kennedy (33:35): Well, I can't thank you enough for being part of this podcast. Joe, you've been listening to "People Always, Patients Sometimes" with my guest, Joseph Kim, who's the senior advisor, digital health office, translational technology and innovation for Eli Lilly. Thank you so much for being here, Joe. Joe Kim (33:51): Thanks for having me, Janet. It was a lot of fun. 

Often the question we ask when we face a disaster or something like the pandemic we are in due to COVID-19 is the question "Why?" Why is this happening? And why is this happening to me? Rarely do we get that question answered. But a better question is "What?" What can I learn through this? That's what we explore this week as we look at Luke 13:1-9, lessons we can learn in a pandemic.

Often the question we ask when we face a disaster or something like the pandemic we are in due to COVID-19 is the question "Why?" Why is this happening? And why is this happening to me? Rarely do we get that question answered. But a better question is "What?" What can I learn through this? That's what we explore this week as we look at Luke 13:1-9, lessons we can learn in a pandemic.

So, you've stocked up on your vitamins, have planned your day around the free IG live workouts available, and have committed to do that Climb Everest from Home challenge. You're ready for this Take-That-Covid-19-You're-Not-Welcome-Here battle, right? Well, not so fast soldier. I guarantee if you'd stop and take a moment to check in with your beautiful body, mind and heart and say "Hey, troops! Are you ready to bring our A-game?", they'd be all like "Serious!?!?!?!? I've have been fighting on the frontlines for you for like your entire life. We need a break, never mind this A-Game stuff". Then you're like "What? What battle? What have we been fighting?!? Maybe a cold in the winter?" Your warrior body/mind/heart gives you a little laugh. "Sit down. We have a few things to tell you, Kid". In order for us all to bring that A-game, we need to fight this virus, to head off onto that immunity battlefield, first we have to acknowledge the 7 seven battles most of us are fighting every day. In this episode, you and I go through each of them and address how you can easily start working on these TODAY, so that you can let that glorious warrior body-mind-heart of yours get to work on this, one of our greatest battles that we will all face together. While we are all living on Planet Crazy right now, I have started daily 8:00am CST live check in on my Instagram @marla.barr. Do feel free to join us. Sending you so much love and light during this time, Dear Friends! Marla  

As we’ve seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it’s now become necessary for the spirits industry to adopt technology and delivery services to stay alive. Cory Rellas, the CEO of Drizly, was on the forefront of this years ago. This podcast dives into their business model and how they are helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could mean for Drizly, and if there is an opportunity to extend this business model into cannabis. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the power of packaging. What is Drizly? How did you come up with this idea? What's the timeline? What was the state of the industry when you got started? What were the challenges? Why did you go through New York early on? What is your big selling point to retail locations? Any pricing restrictions to prevent gouging? Talk about pricing transparency. How are you using the data you are acquiring? Are you sharing the data? Do you have a CRM? How are the products delivered to the consumer? How are you dealing with competition? Are you all interested in getting bought out? What's the end game? What happens if shipping laws change? What is your best selling bourbon? What are the top 5 selling spirit categories? What's your favorite bourbon? How do you work with brands? What needs to change to get more people buy alcohol online? Are you lobbying at all? Is there an opportunity with cannabis? What would the perfect alcohol market look like? What's the latest trend? 0:00 To be the best, you have to learn from the best. Louisville and the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry than from a university located in its epicenter. The University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. 0:36 I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selection has been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head. 0:54 You said it wrong. It goes bourbon bourbon, bourbon, bourbon bourbon 0:58 right brown, brown, brown brown. At 1:01 least that's what we want to hear. 1:03 I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't. 1:21 What's going on everybody? It's Episode 248 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. We just got just a little bit of news to run through. And as you can guess most of it relates to COVID-19. Pennsylvania State run liquor stores are reopening, but only with online and shipped to home orders. Until further notice. Customers can purchase up to six bottles per transaction from a reduced catalog from thousand top selling wines and spirits from the website. All orders must be shipped to home or non store addresses, and only one order per address will be fulfilled per day. This is possibly in reaction to the losses now being seen by the government in an article Hosted by Trib live.com. For the two weeks of not operating, the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board has lost an estimated $91 million in revenue, or around six and a half million dollars per day. quite staggering numbers. And the Virginia ABC has announced that for a limited period of time Virginia distilleries are authorized to ship their spirits to consumers and licensees in Virginia. Now, there's some legal mumbo jumbo about addendums to these distillery store agreements, but it's another big win for consumers and for these distilleries to help everyone get through this period, you can get more information on shipping, including a full list of all 45 Virginia distilleries on the Virginia ABC website. figures released by data analysts IWA ASR have found that for the week ending in March 22 of 2020, that total beverage alcohol sales grew by 40% in value and 33% volume compared to the same period in 2019. And this is to account for the stockpiling that we've seen during COVID-19 Spirits available in one liter one and a half and 1.75 formats have outpaced smaller variants, and the Ws are noted that the larger size formats and value brands tend to benefit from panic buying, as people look to stock their home with as much as possible in the light of a lockdown. According to IWC, or whiskey brands like wild turkey Crown Royal jack daniels bullet and Maker's Mark have been the ones that have seen this most increased purchasing. Alright, now on to something not about the Coronavirus Buffalo Trace distillery continues its exploration into oak tree varietals with the release of its old charter oak Tinker PIN code. This species of oak is native to the Midwest United States. These large Chica Pin Oak trees are often found in parks and larger States after the Chica pin barrels were filled with Buffalo Trace mash number one they were then aged for nine years before being bottled at 93 proof of a suggested retail price is going to be a $70 MSRP and like all other releases in this series, supplies will be limited. And the chicken folk bourbon will be available in limited quantities starting in April. Now today's episode is one that I'm personally really excited about. I'm like a broken record on here preaching how the spirits industry needs a digital revolution. As we've seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it's now become a necessity for this industry to even stay alive. And Cory rellis, the CEO of drizzly, he was on the forefront of this years ago. And this podcast dives into how he even thought of the idea into their business model and how they're how they're actually helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online, and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could actually mean for drizzly. And is there an opportunity to even extend this business model into cannabis. Now if you haven't noticed yet, we are doing lots of impromptu live streams that help give you some more entertainment during this time. We've done virtual happy hours with our patrons Our community, late night blind tastings and more. So make sure that you're subscribed to our YouTube channel to get the notifications and also, consider joining Patreon. We're doing zoom meetings to help connect our community. And we'd love to have you there. Check it out. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. Also, don't forget to catch Fred MiniK on his live streams every single day at one o'clock and nine o'clock pm eastern time. They've been highly entertaining and educational. enjoy today's episode. Stay safe. Stay inside. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 5:36 Hey everyone, Joe here again. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America's most curious cask strength whiskies. lift your spirits with barrel bourbon. 5:50 I'm Fred minich. And this is above the char this past week. I'm just telling you, my brain has been suffering. I've been working so hard on I've been doing two live streams a day on YouTube. I've been writing a lot for Forbes, I've been blogging as much as I possibly can. And I hit a wall I hit a wall where I had no ideas left me none in the tank. And I want to thank every single one of you who responded to my query on Twitter, where I simply asked Can you please give me some ideas for above the char? I got so many great ones. I'm going to start with this one from the whiskey stop. It's at the whiskey stop on Twitter. And he wants me to talk about the power of packaging. A unique shape of the bottle. Does it have a twist top a synthetic cork, maybe natural cork a great or unusual label? Did it influence your purchase was a good did it suck? Did the packaging work? its magic on you. What a brilliant question and what a time Hundred like truth is that packaging matters. Oh my God does packaging matter. And let me tell you if you overthink packaging, you will fail and that is where you fail. Most of all when it comes to packaging, what I have noticed is is that many people try to target women and they do it with like a like a fluffy pink or they've got some kind of like special dressing on there and they have like rainbow colors, and women rejected every single time. Another one is when someone tries to be overly fancy, they get like a crystal, a major crystal top, a really fancy label, and then they fill it with like two year old MGP whiskey 7:49 adds a big fail. 7:51 So the packaging always has to match what's inside the bottle and the packaging cannot overstate Something so the overselling is the case of a brand that went too far with trying to attract women. And the whiskey not matching would be the decanter or the bottle that had shit whiskey in it. And the bottle was just stunning. And I've always believed that to me, you can measure a bottle by what is fascinating it or the closure. I am such a fan of natural cork you can read my cover story and bourbon plus magazine to get an idea of like, what goes into making court but I am really connected to the earth and I love I love the sustainability aspect of cork. And when I hear that pop when I pull the bottle next to my ears and I go that is an undeniable sound that makes my mouth water and makes me want a sip. A screw top doesn't do that. Lot of the synthetic corks are like stuck in there like they don't make that same sound. And the glass tops that are starting to become more popular. I could never get those things off. I have to pry them off with the damn, you know, butter knife. To me it all starts with with a good cork on the top. Now people can argue all day long of the merits of cork, but I'm just here to tell you I know what I like. And I like hearing this sound every time I open a bottle. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, listen, I'm bound to continue to run out of ideas with this Coronavirus stuff going on. Because I'm not stopping. I am driving content every single day. So hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or YouTube and give me some ideas for above the char I'll select my favorite and read it in the next episode. Next week, cheers. 10:05 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny Ryan and Fred in our virtual hangout space. And today we are talking about a topic that we know far or should say, we know all too well, you know, when we talked about this on the roundtables, we talked about it, you know, with distributors, we talked about what is the future consumption and delivery of alcohol really going to look like for the the mass market and we look at, you know, coming from a tech industry myself, we try to figure out, like, how can we get, you know, our product into the hands of consumers faster than anyone else. And what we're gonna be talking about today is really talking to a company that's on the forefront of all this. And when we look at this, it's not only just being able to get in the hands of consumers, but you can get it in less than an hour sometimes. So I think it's gonna be a really cool conversation of how we really dive into this. So Fred, and Ryan I mean, you know, we've we've talked about shipping before, but have you all have y'all ever had a service delivered bottles to you yet? 11:08 No, not yet. But I'm super excited to learn about it. I'm fortunate I live like a half mile from a liquor store so we can get it pretty easy. But yeah, I mean, the liquor industry moves at a snail's pace. So you know, there's a lot of friction points and getting bottles delivered to your house and I've had plenty of bottles delivered to my house just not legally. But I would like to make it legal so yeah, I'm really excited to talk to them about this today. 11:36 Yeah, I've had I've had quite a bit sent to me I also you know, being being a personality on the spirits network, they regularly send me stuff and they you know, that's part of their, their whole thing is that you join and you get to be become a Club member, and they ship barrel pics and stuff to you. 11:56 And so let's go ahead introduce our guests today. So today, we Have Cory rellis Cory is the CEO of drizzly, you might have seen him or the app, you've seen probably their logo and a lot of liquor stores are the ones that deliver bottles from liquor stores to your doorstep. So Cory, welcome to the show. 12:15 Thanks for having me, guys. 12:16 So was that a decent elevator pitch? Or do you have a better one? That's usually us. 12:21 It's a common misconception. So I would actually like to give you my elevator pitch. 12:25 Please do please do. Yes. 12:27 Yeah. So So actually, drizzly was formed a lot with a lot of knowledge around the regulations that you guys have been discussing. I know we're going to talk about that further. So I'll put that in the back for a minute now, but the model is actually different than people think we don't do delivery. And really what drizzly prides itself on is digitizing the inventory of local liquor stores, so that a consumer can come online, shop across their stores and find a larger selection, comparison pricing and ultimately get that delivered to them. But the delivery is done by either the retailer themselves or Third parties, that door dashes Postmates shifts to the world. And so we're really a tech middleman empowering the three tiers, but not necessarily changing the status quo. 13:10 Cool. So it's kind of like a an Open Table kind of concept for liquor stores, maybe you're kind of looking at what's available and can then kind of pick and choose that way. 13:20 Yeah, that's not a bad comparison. And Ryan, you were saying you live next to a liquor store. And I think that's really drizzly, his opportunity is not necessarily to replace the liquor store, but to provide an experience you couldn't get by going to any one liquor store. And that goes again, back to selection, to transparency of pricing to the surface and multiple stores being able to get to you when and where you want it. 13:40 And so I kind of want to roll back the hands of time here and kind of learn more about you so kind of talk us through, you know, where did Where did spirits become or is this just like an idea you had and you said, like, Hey, this is fun. Like, this is a this is an opportunity that's, that's basically ripe for disruption. Like, what What got to the point of like you getting here and saying like, okay, cool, like this is gonna be a good venture to kind of go through. 14:07 Yeah, it's a it's a less sexy story than you might imagine. And it started with regulation. So going all the way back to my cousin Nick, Nick rellis, and then co founder, Justin Robinson. And it was born out of trying to figure out why alcohol was only 2% online, or even one and a half percent online. When you saw grocery, when you saw a restaurant, we saw electronics and clothing, all these other verticals are coming online at a rapid rate. And we started to think about why that is with alcohol. And regulation became the clear component of this whole piece. And so we started digging into the legal code. I mean, truthfully, looking not only at the repeal and the prohibition, but also state by state liquor codes and trying to understand how does this model need to work for alcohol? How can a tech platform both empower the industry but not be a part of the industry and still be an unlicensed entity within it? And then the third piece is, how do you carve your moat? How do you be more than deliberate because you know, when we start projecting the 10 years down the road, that's a commodity at the end of the day and so we need to be better than going to the liquor store and elevate the status or I'm sorry, elevate the physical liquor stores to do something that couldn't do in the physical world. 15:11 Alright, so I don't know if he really answered my question there because I really want to figure out more about you right like Matt 15:17 Boyd. All of those Kenny. 15:19 Bad we want to get to know a little about you, right? I mean, like, like, we're like so where'd you go to school? Like Where'd it Where'd this really kind of like, really spawn from? 15:27 sure my road was a little bit sideways. I grew up in Texas. And I would say that I'm a big bourbon fan for that reason grew up loving bourbon actually, but was a soccer player at Notre Dame spent five years there had a fifth year for soccer and wanted to play professionally after school. But a couple ACLs later, had to give up that dream and ultimately had done an internship after my first injury, kind of preparing just in case it didn't work out in the long run, and took a job out here in Boston at Bain Capital. They're credited affiliates, sanctity advisors. And that's when I started to get to know businesses a little bit better. I started to get to know regulated industries incredibly well, I was dealing with coal and steel and some pretty, pretty old industries at the end of the day. And then the three of us that I was mentioning, started just kicking around ideas. And so this was a big jump for me, I was in, you know, kind of the standard finance track at that point, thinking about what the next couple of years looked like, whether it be business school, or continuing doing what I was doing. And it felt like the right time to jump it felt like the right collection of folks to try something new with and a little bit of naivete got us to the final to the finish line and push us over the edge 16:40 to like your own little incubator, if you will. 16:43 We had a bunch of ideas. They were all terrible. So 16:47 we struck out on a few. This one became, I mean, really, the passion of the other two guys is what got me to believe and then the more we dug in, the more we really peel back the onion, the more we knew something was here, not just as a small thing. company but something that could really turn into something as a larger platform. 17:03 Give us a timeline behind this what was you know, when when did the light bulb light bulb go off? 17:10 Yeah, so 2012 the light bulb was starting to go off with the text of why can't you get alcohol delivered? And the response was you can you idiot. And so that started down the rabbit hole of when you get called out to some extent, what do you have to do? You have to take the next step and figure it out. And so that's when we started researching the liquor code. And it's funny how things work in Boston being a good microcosm of this project. One question you get and put in touch with the next guy who you can then ask the next question to and it starts to unfold unto itself. And it's not necessarily we saw some grand vision of what alcohol e commerce would look like and what drizzly has now become, but the next step was always apparent if you're willing to take the time. So 2012 was the idea. 2013 was the very first iteration and we've evolved since then. But bringing one liquor store online. Learning about consumers and what they're looking for what e commerce was. And then in the last three years, our models really accelerated. 18:07 So walk us through like the state of the industry, then when you guys are getting like what it were liquor stores doing as far as inventory or trying to do online sales, what was kind of the State of the Union when you guys got it started? 18:19 I wouldn't say it's too different now. We're moving it forward, but begrudgingly, I'd say for some of them. So what was fascinating about the current landscape delivery did happen, but it didn't happen in the paradigm in which we have now moved it towards which you could call liquor store. You didn't necessarily know it was on their shelves, but you could say, you know, I'm having 10 people over for a party, I'd like to place a $500 order split between a couple things, can you make some recommendations, so there wasn't transparency into what you could buy nor the price behind it. And you had to have big orders at the store is going to take the time, but delivery did happen to some extent. On the other side. Ecommerce within this space was just like not even on the radar for regulators or legislators. So you're talking about prohibition being repealed, that is still a lot of the framework and the intent behind the laws that are written. And so there was nothing to comment on e commerce at that point. And one of the first things we did I mean, this is the time of Uber, right? The cars are moving around you at the touch of a button, the world's changing because you have a phone in your pocket. And we're sitting here thinking, Okay, well, how does it need to look for alcohol? And unlike Uber, we couldn't just get into a city try to stoke up consumer demand, and then ask the regulations to be changed. That's just not the way this industry works. We had to go the other way. And so one of the first things we did was go to New York State, the Liquor Authority, they're the SLS. And we asked for a declaratory ruling relative to our model to basically say, not only we elite, not only are we legal, but we're three tier compliant, and we're doing things so aboveboard, that the SLA is willing to bless our model going forward and so that was actually the first moment where became not just a hobby, but very real and something that we thought we could then Take a run with. 20:01 So you you kind of said, All right, we need to sit down, look at the laws and figure out how we can sort of navigate these choppy waters. I would imagine when we've we've talked about all the time, anytime you try to put any kind of disruption into this marketplace that there is you're going to be hit hard with a lot of people that are lobbying against you. What were some of those like early conversations, you remember having people that are like this will never work like you're not going to get it to fly. 20:29 I have a hard time remembering ones that weren't like that, to be honest. So I can speak to the other side easier. Most of it was doubt that this is a very slow industry to change. And you have pretty significant entities that control pieces of the supply chain, and if they're not on board, you're not going to have success on a macro scale and other slices of it. That can work. You could do direct to consumer wine, you could do shipping, there's different pieces of it. But on a macro scale of trying to bring the physical footprint of alcohol online. We needed a few things to go right one was New York. And Funny enough, the the woman, Jackie flute, who blessed our model, as the general counsel for the New York State Liquor Authority is now on our team. And she was kind of the veteran in the space when she put her stamp of approval that meant a lot to the industry. The second one was the wholesalers, the wine and spirits, wholesalers of America and powerful group of people and in terms of their lobbying prowess in their space within the industry, and we got them on board as a three tier compliant model that can move forward the consumer experience in a way that they could get behind. So that was that was a big piece of it as well. 21:33 So you talked about being going above and beyond what the authorities there were, what were some of those things that kind of helps sell New Yorker where they were like gave you that that blessing? 21:44 Well, I think transparency is the first thing and not only transparency, communication, but transparency of the supply chain and what consumers purchasing what bottles from what retailer and if you can track all of that which obviously tech can do and can really enable that process. That is a leg up for many Anything that's happening in delivery today, connect. The second one was, we came with an offering for ID verification through delivery. That was again, not only transparent, but did it in such a way that they could have confidence that under age was not going to be a problem within this business model. And then I think the third part was just being very descriptive on how the flow of funds work. And then also what drizzly is and what just isn't, I think there's a line that needs to get drawn as to what is a retailer's job and competencies. And when you encroach on those too far, you start to erode the license that they have worked hard and in need to live up to, relative to what a software platform is doing on the other side. So it was more just a lot of learning and explaining who we are and how we do it. 22:45 So I know that the liquor laws are they're different everywhere. I mean, every state is different. You've got to navigate that everywhere you're trying to launch. And so when I think of New York, one of the things that I know of at least in New York, and who knows if at least There's plenty of stores that actually have websites in New York. And they can deliver within New York as well, like they can run through UPS, FedEx or whatever it is. So what was the idea of going through something like New York first, that might already have some sort of system set up like this versus something like Texas, right, which is a huge market, but has a lot more regulation versus something like DC, which is really like the Wild West? 23:26 Yeah, there's a few things to pick apart there. So we actually got off the ground in terms of our model in Boston. And then we went to New York to get the model blessed one because of their size and then to the regulatory credibility when they put their stamp on something. But what was unique about Massachusetts in one of those fortuitous things that happens. It is a an incredibly regulatory driven market for alcohol. So if you're compliant here, you've almost kind of fit the lowest common denominator for the rest of the states. And you can roll it out from there. So I think that was a big fortuitous bounce in our direction at the beginning. The second thing We learned from a consumer side of things, every state is so different, and how consumers buy alcohol. Because of the regulations in New York, as you're mentioning, you have a wine and spirits store and a beer store, you have a license cap so that you don't have chains. But you have a ton of independence, which is obviously very different than Texas or California, where you have a bevmo or some of these larger chains out there. So the consumer experience really needed to adapt on where you are, and who you're going to be working with on the retail side, the East Coast was set up pretty pretty darn effectively for us because we could work with independence, learn how to bring on a smaller shop make a real difference in their business. And then as we rolled out to larger cities and states, we were more ready. We were more ready to have conversations with some of the bigger retailers. 24:45 Yeah, I think that's one of the things that we should most most people that are in the retail market should really start looking at is how do you become a little bit more competitive in today's market and just being on the corner and relying on your neighbors to kind of keep you in business might not be able to thing that's gonna keep you floating for much longer. So when you go and you have these conversations, or at least in the very beginning, I'm sure you have a whole team that have these conversations now with liquor stores around the country, what's your what's your big selling point to them to say like, hey, like we can bring your inventory online? Do you integrate with like their existing POS? Or does it say like, Hey, you need to have a new POS system that that we we run and manage, like, how does all that work? 25:28 There's a lot to it. But you appeal to them first as a consumer, and you start to think about other industries and how they've come online. And where do you buy airline tickets? Where do you buy hotels? How do you buy or how do you shop? for clothes online aggregator model and starting to get them thinking about this is going to happen in the space. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when and so you appeal to them on a consumer level to start. The next thing you're really dealing with is fear. You're dealing with fear of competition, you're dealing with fear of transparency of pricing, and that's how far back this industry goes. As you know, they still believe That people can't get their prices if they wanted to walk in, it gets a little irrational. But then you can speak to them around numbers now. And this is obviously changed over seven years. But you can talk to him about incremental consumers that they wouldn't have been able to serve otherwise. And we have data behind that. You can talk to him about how a marketplace actually elevates to the experience to the point where multiple stores are able to succeed at a level that if you were the only one doing delivery in this area, we wouldn't be able to get those consumers to not only come and check out the site, but also come back and shop from you in the future. And then the last thing is, is we need to be more than just the consumer marketplace. And so when you're talking about point of sale systems, we need to be to elevate and help them generate more profit from their in store business, that things there's things like the catalog and the accuracy of what's on their shelves and how they actually think about that there's data on consumer trends and what they want to put on their shelves at what price at what time. So there's a lot of things as a tech company that we have access to the can really elevate their entire business and it's a whole package that when you work with drizzly makes you a better retailer. 27:01 So you brought up up pricing. One thing that we've noticed a trend in liquor retailers is there's a lot of price gouging. Do you have any restrictions or anything like that with the retailers you work with that you set them within like a 27:18 close to the MSRP or anything like that? 27:21 And it's a good question. So in some states, the price in store is legally mandated to be the price online. And I could give it's a couple states, it's not the majority by any means. So that one takes care of itself. But our job is really to bring their in store experience online and the way they want to do it. Our approach to price gouging is not necessarily to give them mandates on what to price it or to keep it in certain things is to insert competition. It's to have a marketplace to keep them honest to the point where if you are going to try to price things 40 50% up because they're rare and Other people that have that same item, they're obviously not going to purchase yours. And so it really just gets back to an efficient marketplace idea and making sure that consumers are the arbiter of what's successful and not regulations or drizzly or someone else. 28:14 And so to kind of like tackle or shall I say, like, tack onto that one a little bit. When we think about pricing, we've actually had KL we've had a spirits on the show, because we kind of talked about like, what does it look like to be in an online first kind of market? Right? Like, like, that's gonna be the new consumer drive. That's the new demand. If If Amazon's next whatever's coming next, if it's drizzly next, whatever, it's going to be like that online marketplaces really where people are going to go for. And so the other thing about the pricing aspect is this is like when you put your prices online, you're creating this level transparency, because you know exactly like what somebody's charging for a 750 ml in early times versus what somebody else is charging. Does that ever like Upset any retailers? And they're like, Wait a second, like, how are they able to charge less than I can like, what's their? What's their distributor? charging them versus what they're charging me? Do you get caught any of those kind of situations? 29:12 There's definitely yes, I mean, transparency introduces more knowledge into the marketplace for sure. Are we introduced to that conversation? Not necessarily. But I'll tell you one of the biggest learnings from early days it drizzly from switching from a single store experience. I am shopping from the store across the street, who I've been brought online through drizzly to a marketplace where I'm shopping by brand first and then drizzle is telling you the best way to access that product, whether it be selection, you can only get it at one place, price delivery, all those different things. And so what's come out of that though, one store may price something as a margin builder. Another one actually may price price it as a loss leader, and the various strategies within those retailers really come to fruition when you break down those physical barriers and put all of those things on one page together, so it's not necessarily that, hey, I'm getting a worse deal from my distributor. But it starts to highlight what someone does in store online in a much, much more transparent way. And you compete a little differently online. And so it started to me an education of this is how I went in store helped me win online. And there's usually an avenue to do that. That's the bigger conversation more so than I'm getting gouged by my distributor. 30:24 Yeah, that was 30:25 actually going to be my question how, as a liquor store, do you compete online, it kind of reminds me of the car business, you know, like the car industry used to have to rely on a salesman and try to whittle them down and beat them down to get the you know, the most fair price but now everybody knows the price What can a store do to compete? You know, if if you guys are and what parameters are you kind of determining that makes a store better or worse for someone? 30:50 Sure. And it's one of those things when you when you come on a jersey you're going to see a bunch of information and that's really where where I think we can win in the long run. Is asymmetric access to information and that includes price. That includes delivery times, that includes your selection, whether it be longtail wines, or high end and rare Bourbons. And so highlighting that is a big piece of it. And then you start to think about other people that are starting to focus in this industry. I mean, grocery, for example, is starting to come online for alcohol in a bigger way, total wine is being very aggressive. They are feeling independence or feeling that distinctly in the cities that we're seeing that, but there are advantages to being an independent liquor store location, for example, you have access to consumers within 2030 or 40 minutes that a total one could never get to in that timeframe. Not necessarily selling private label. Private Label online is a little bit more difficult. And so what of your selection, do you want to highlight? What are your higher margin products? And how do we highlight those to the consumers you're willing to speak to, and then also providing them tools. Again, going back to this data conversation, there's not a whole lot informing what they put on their shelves except for that stuff. salesmen walking in drizzly can bring transparency to that as well. What are consumers in this area buying? What are the trends? How should you think about pricing it? And how do you build that into an overall larger strategy to have a successful business and in a rapidly changing environment, which we're seeing, depending on which city different rates, but it's happening. 32:17 So you brought up data, you bring in a datum, and we are in the age of big data where we are dominated by it. Tell talk, walk us through, like how you use that data? Do you sell it to the to the suppliers? Do you feed it into like a market research hub? How are you using the data you're acquiring at point of sale? 32:40 Almost all of the data we acquire, we are using to inform our own offering. And so it's simply commerce things like how do we construct a better flow to increase conversion your likelihood to hit checkout? How do we start moving shelves around in what is effectively a digital liquor store to be more personalized to you So that the next time you come back in, we're more apt to show you the right product at the right time at the right price. That's really what we use the data for. Going back to retailers and brands, we can aggregate it and anonymize it and give them larger trends that could be cut down by geography, but never anything that's highlighting a particular store or a particular consumer more. So just highlighting a different slice of the market. And one of the interesting things about the alcohol industry is you have your Nielsen's and your IR eyes and some of the bigger data providers who have a interesting offering within the alcohol space. But they're big gaps, the independent liquor store market where you don't have receipt data, or you don't have consistency of point of sale systems. Those are not places so New York has an entire market. Those are not places that people have great insight to and drizzly through its 350 retailers that we partner with in New York City can start to really build transparency into a market that is otherwise been only aggregated into depletion data. So Other things. So there's an aggregated view for the external partners. For us internally, it's how do we create a better ecommerce experience? 34:06 Because that thread can be 34:07 actually, you know, it's fascinating. 34:09 There's a lot to take in, right. 34:11 I used to cover retail, I used to be the tech writer for the National Retail Federation's magazine stores, and I felt myself going back to the old days. Listen to you talk there. And follow up on that data is that, you know, we don't really a lot of the a lot of the numbers that are that are out there that are public. They kind of like you're saying, like the Nielsen numbers. They're not really complete. So my question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public? Since you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there? 34:54 There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now, more than ever before. So how do you find The best stories and the best flavors will rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rack houses box ship out every two months to 39 states across the US and rack houses April box, they're featuring a distillery that makes us Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how rack house whiskey club is shipping out to whiskies from two bar spirits located near downtown Seattle, including their straight bourbon, go to rack house whiskey club calm to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 35:42 My question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public and you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there. 35:53 You're hitting on a great thing. And we actually do believe in the democratization of our data just because we think it's going to make all of us Better, including the consumer experience. So we released something a long time ago called the data distillery. We are thinking about how to do this in a larger way, not only for trend data, but again, how do we create something that becomes a backbone for the industry so that we are sharing data? Not because I think some people think you by holding on to it, you're more valuable. Our view is by using it to make the industry more effective, the consumers will win, which is ultimately what we're all about. One, one quick anecdote. I mean, we see trends earlier, our average consumer is millennial, older millennial 30 to 34 years old, 5050, male, female, and these are folks who are trendsetters. These are social people. And so, Rosie a couple of years ago, I mean, seltzer took off about eight months online before it did on, you know, in the physical world. So it's just one of those things where we can really inform based on the trendsetters that purchase on our platform brands and how they should be thinking about the world and then a larger play as to what you're saying Fred around, using data to benefit the industry. 36:59 Fred, you Actually, you know, and you kind of cover my question, but I guess as a liquor store owner, do I have, you know, do I have the same access to that data? Is every single store within your system? Or is it store specific or regional specific? And like, from a CR is do you have a CRM base as well with drizzly for the retailer? 37:20 We do we do. So if you're a drizzly retailer, we have a tool that's actually just culturally retailer and that gives you access to all of your sales data, all of the customers that are purchasing from you. And then also an aggregated view on some of these consumer trends and thoughts around the inventory, you should be stocking. So that is absolutely part of being a partner with drizzly and a CRM side. We're obviously aggregating eyeballs on our site. We're aggregating consumers and want to speak to them in an intelligent way. A piece of what we're doing in 2020 is starting to take our technology and utilizing that to allow retailers to do this themselves. So you can imagine white labeled websites that Allow them to merchandise their own products more effectively and almost have control of their own website by utilizing drizzly assets. And you can start to see where that would go in terms of CRM capability, the ability to talk to their consumers in a more discreet way versus the aggregator marketplace that is drizzly. So there's a lot within that, but yes, I can see us more and more powering some of their ecommerce needs, not only to benefit us, but I think it's a necessity for the market to benefit consumers. 38:26 I also think it's a necessity to because of course it for me, it always comes back to tech. And, you know, you go and you look at some websites, and I mean, some of them are just they're just archaic, right? You know, a lot of liquor stores, these mom and pop shops that try to build a website, there's a flash banner on it, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, that's why, you know, at least not in this particular segment, but this is why a lot of people that are creating their own businesses, they look at things like Shopify because it makes their you know their system a lot easier. I mean, or is that like one of the big selling points that you have for just lead a lot of these retailers is like, let's Let's take you at least to the 2020. Now, 39:03 yeah, that's a great point. So it wasn't when we started, to be honest, we thought more about how to aggregate consumer demand in our marketplace. And so that's a little bit different. That's almost like the Amazon side of things of will collect the eyeballs, we'll build the technology. And we're going to utilize your physical shelf space. On the other side, the selling point there is just incremental consumers incremental profit, so that that works. On the other side, there's so much we can do to look like Shopify to be a platform, which is an entirely different business model, but one that we really think we can enable the hundred thousand independent retailers out there to serve customers, and I keep saying customers because despite everything else that goes on within our business, we talk a lot about internally, the reason for our existence, our purpose behind everything is to to be there for the moments that matter and the people who create them and yes, we sell alcohol and help people transact online. But we're there to actually provide a better consumer experience and allow them the time and the freedom and To find that right bottle at the right price, I mean, we all know how cool that can be. So, it all comes back to democratizing what we do to the benefit of the end consumer. 40:10 Well, first off, hats off for trying to make change, positive change in this world. That's always outdated. That's we know, it's we know, it's insanely difficult to actually do. But I think there's one aspect that you know, we kind of want to touch on as well because it is a it is a part of the drizzly system and no, it's not just you know, basically creating the catalog for for what the consumer sees, but there there is a component of actually how it is delivered to the end consumer. So kind of touched on a little bit about you know, you said the post mates the, that sort of model of like, how does it once once a transaction happens online, at what point is drizzly done with it, and it's either on the retailer, it's on whomever, to get that into the hands of the consumer. 40:57 So when someone hits check out What we have done is send that order through a gateway to the merchant of record, which is the retailer itself. So just one data point there. If you're shopping from ABC liquors, that is the merchant of record on your credit card drizzly is not within that flow of funds at any point. What we do do on the other side is build the technology so that if the retailer wants to do the delivery, they have the ability to do that it almost is like the Uber driver app to some extent for this space. And that's about 92% of our orders. So most of this is retailer delivery using our technology, and we are providing the customer support throughout the entire experience until the bottle has received at its location. The third parties are interesting just because delivery is such a inexpensive piece of this whole thing and they've added scale and efficiency in a way that you almost need multiple categories, multiple verticals to do and you can imagine a mom and pop getting frustrated on a seven 7pm Friday. Too many orders coming from drizzly too many people internally It would be nice to be able to have a courier of some sort. So that's what we built in. They're all tech based, we have full visibility into when it reaches the consumers hands inclusive of ID verification. So we're always a part of it. And at the same time, we're not the ones physically handing the bottle off. 42:16 So you're like a almost like a marketplace, right? As for getting those together? I mean, is I mean, is it really like you're popping out? And it's like saying, like, okay, like Uber Eats, post mates doordash, like, whoever is going to answer this, like, come and pick this thing up. 42:29 We don't put it out to bid per se but we do work with most of the partners you just said. But that was also an idea to be honest. And there's people who have created that, we found that having one option per store is a little bit better just because you get used to who they are and do things in a in a bit simpler way. 42:44 And so I guess a another question that I kind of want to actually go ahead and because it's I'm sure it's a the business side of this. So go ahead and answer it is 42:51 actually a business side. So you talked about how you kind of laid the framework for this whole really, for what is an is an new category that's kind of changing the space and now you got competition. You got all kinds of people coming on board, minibar and a few others. So how do you? How do you how do you deal with that? How do you, you you have to compete with him at individual retailers? Do you guys share retailers? How does that work with your competition? 43:21 Well, Fred, I mean, going back to 2013 when we Magneto got back in the stone age's. Exactly. I felt like I got some grit. Now, that was pretty good. In 2013, when we kind of announced the model, there were about 50 meters out there, minibar absolutely being one of them and have a lot of respect for what they've done. That phase isn't necessarily over at any time, but the big boys are now here. And so we're actually thinking about competition, not necessarily for just alcohol specific, but the logistics firms. I mean, Uber Eats has tried to do alcohol delivery. 10 different times instacart has prioritized alcohol and e commerce. Why Walmart and grocers are starting to think about how to do this in a bigger way, total wine. So you can imagine that there's, we almost need to find a way to succeed. And this is what we talked about a lot internally. In 567 years, every bottle on every shelf could be transacted online and sent to a consumer, whether it be delivery pickup or shipping. And in that world, how does your business model succeed? And that's really where it just has been built for. Not necessarily the me twos today that are, you know, predominantly just about delivery and convenience, within that 44:32 value proposition. At what point do you stop, you know, you're talking about some pretty big names and they're trying to get in the space? what point do you stop competing and just start? You can't beat them join them in that regard, is that the end goal? Seems like with most tech companies, they want to get absorbed or bought out, you know, at some point have an exit strategy. 44:51 Yeah, I mean, there's always there's always thoughts on the next strategy, but to be honest, we're being built for the long haul and alcohol is a bit a bit you I mean, there is a moat, from regulation that comes from embracing them, rather than trying to knock down these laws. Now, if tomorrow, the Three cheers went away, and it looked a lot more like selling electronics online, I might have a different tune as to about where we fit in the long run. But I do think we can stick out a place here for the long term. And a lot of that comes back to kind of this underpinning of how do you take regulation and code that into your technology? And then also, how do you take a mom and pop an entirely fragmented retail base, and then aggregate that in such a way using your catalog, your tech that we know where every bottle is in the country, its price and how to get it to a consumer, what you build on top of that within your product experience? Just kind of opens up the world to you and I just think that's something entirely differentiated and difficult to replicate. All that being said, not looking to sell by any means today, but it's obviously something you sit up a little straighter when Amazon gets into your space. 45:58 Yeah, I would imagine so. Yeah, I mean, I think I think Amazon might have been one of the big names that, you know, people are gonna recognize and you know, they're they're definitely trying to get into the space as well. And so, you know, another question that that kind of follows along with that is the when we start looking at, you know, Amazon, you start looking at instacart, and all these different kinds of companies that are trying to get into it. And if you kind of said something like, if the three tier system is goes down tomorrow, like what what would that really mean for you all? And if basically, this gets democratized to the point that it is just like, buying and you know, buying an electronic off Amazon like, What? What is that? Is that truly like gaming or a game over? I mean, are you really reliant on the three tier system to to make this happen? 46:47 At this point? No, but I think two things become obvious. Right now brands are about as far away that you can be from a consumer when you're a big CPG right. So they are unbelievable storytellers and brand builders from The awareness message side of things. But it's not like Procter and Gamble and Walmart, where you have co located offices and you're trying to figure out where to put things on shelves and incentive basis. And you know, you're buying shelf space and tap space and the rest. That doesn't happen well, at least not legally, at least today. And if that goes away, then the way brands work with retailers changes overnight. And drizzly has a value proposition there, but it does need to shift pretty significantly. The other side of the coin though, is we almost need to plan for the three tiers to go away because drizzly successful, when the product experience, the consumer experience is so good that they no longer need to go to the store. And that goes back to not just the selection and the availability and the transparency of price, but then packaging it in such a way that again, almost guided shopping or personalization to where you almost feel like you're missing out if you're not going to Jersey because you've learned so much about your product. There's a crazy stat we just learned that you know 40 45% of our consumers Unless you're using Drupal as a discovery tool, and not necessarily transacting on the platform, I think that's fascinating. I think that's something that we can really lean into to drive value for the consumers at the end of the day. And again, I think that's one of those unique things that regulation be damned, we can do better than anyone else. 48:16 And how does your game change if shipping laws are broken down? Now, let's say the three tier system still there, and it's great. However, now that you know, New York and shipped to California, Wisconsin, you can go to Florida, and liquor stores can now compete, you know, across state lines, like what is that? What does that do for your business? 48:37 I think it'd be a little bit of the Wild West to start, I think you're going to start to see the macro or the larger chains, assert price dominance because they can then start to think of their business on a national scale versus distributor, distributor and state by state. I think we could really take advantage of that world to be honest again, I keep beating on the same point but if we know what's in 40,000 stores We should be able to surface all of the items at the best price possible for you almost kind of this notion of tell us what you want, we'll figure out the best way for you to get it. And I think that's one in which we would really succeed. Shipping is not a huge piece of our business today. But that speaks to the use case, we're going after more so than the consumer demand inherent within shipping. So I think we could really take advantage of it. It would, it would require a little bit of adaptation and how we do things. 49:24 All right, I want to jump back into some data stuff. This is I think this is some fun. This will be fun for you. What is your best selling bourbon based on your data? 49:36 It's a little different than you might think. It's a brand that we've done a lot of work with, to try to figure out how it resonates with the millennial consumer but bullet bourbon was our largest brand in 2019. 49:48 Bigger than it's a 49:49 popular brand, 49:50 but it's you know, it's not it's not necessarily makers, or Jim are some of these other ones. So yeah, 49:55 still a top 10 bourbon from a sales perspective. Now what are The top five selling spirits so like from a categorical perspective 50:06 category spirits are the spirit themselves. 50:09 The so the know the category spirits so like tequila ROM bourbon like what what's your top five there? 50:16 I might get this wrong but we'll see here I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selections been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head. 50:37 You said it wrong. It's goes bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, 50:41 right. brown brown, brown brown. 50:44 At least that's what we want to hear. 50:45 Well, I didn't I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't 50:53 bleep me out but it's funny I've I've sworn on this and I didn't hear any negative reaction. Now I say anything other than bourbon. And there we go. 51:00 Yeah you get around Fred that's that's the type of banter you're gonna get out of it and so you know as we kind of want to like ask a question because we really didn't ask it in the very top of this because you said you were a bourbon fan like what's what's what's kind of like your go to you got some favorites cuz I see behind you you got a Coors Light came behind there I figured figured we could I mean you're in the you're in the spirits business like let's let's get some bourbon on those shelves back there. 51:25 Oh don't worry we do have that this is just one of the rooms 51:29 well so I like to play nice because we work with a bunch of different brands in their businesses. I'm a big Booker's fan I love 100 proof Booker's over a glass device when I go home. I'd say that's more of a Friday night drink than anything else. But that's probably my go to if I'm if I'm opening something on the regular. 51:47 What do you mean by by working with brands? Like what is what does that mean to you? Well, 51:52 I think there's two things. The first would be on the data side. So these are folks who are looking to learn about consumer trends, figure out how their business brands are resonating with consumers. And it's less even about the online spend. It's taking those learnings and apply it to the offline. And again, massive media budgets and trying to make them even 1% more efficient by learning about the online consumer in depth. That's a big piece of it. The second piece is, shirtsleeves, the fastest growing company in the fastest growing channel for alcohol. So to that extent, they are trying to figure out how they're going to win online. Knowing that in five years 10 12% of all alcohol is going to be sold online. So drizzly can be almost a test and learn area for them. You can speak to consumers in a personalized way. You could sell advertising, we haven't done much of that to date. But all of these things are basically a lab for them to figure out how their brands can come online, and either keep or grow their market share versus the physical world. 52:49 So what was that you say? 10 to 12% is what it's going to be in the future. 52:53 Yeah, if you look at some of the larger data providers, they're projecting 13 $14 billion in 2023. Slightly less ambitious than that. But you're seeing this industry come online at 40 50% year over year, which is significant, we do think it's gonna be the fastest growing CPG over the next three to five years. 53:11 So what what do you all need to do to try to position yourselves to say like, we can grow this beyond 10 to 12%? Like how, how do we change the minds of the consumer to say, like, Oh, we can we can get this to 20 to 25%? Like, what do you think has to change in the culture to try and get people to start buying more online? 53:32 I think you're actually hitting at it pretty good there, which is awareness. Not many people know that you're allowed to buy alcohol online. And even if you do, there hasn't been a way to do so that should take away from going to the local liquor store. I mean, that's, that's a behavior that's worked for decades and decades. And so to break that behavior, you need to build something that is not one or two times more effective than going to the store but 10 X and really, that's where the product offering needs. to elevate the purchasing to where I don't need to leave my home, or if I did, I need to at least see what's online to really inform my experience in a way that I could never get on store. So it's a combination of awareness, and then a product offering that is just so superior going to the store, that they're going to order it online. Again, utilizing that store, though, 54:18 for sure. And I don't know, I mean, I guess there is there is also something about, you know, being a consumer going to the store, looking at it holding in your hand. And maybe, maybe that'll just become a thing of the past. Like, what do you what do you try to do to try to like counteract, like, some arguments like that? I mean, but then again, there's also like, Alright, well, you know, people used to love to have the feel of holding a newspaper in their hand, but nobody really does that a lot anymore, either. Can I still read the newspaper? I gotta be honest, physical core. You're killing me, man. Like you're young. You're young and hip, man. You shouldn't be reading a newspaper. 54:54 no and no one I know we call me hip, but that's all right. I wrote for newspapers for a long time. DDS. to bash on them, I mean, for God's sake, 55:03 there isn't. There's a key word in there that was it was wrong. 55:08 Yeah, but to your to your larger point, I don't want to necessarily be in a world where you can't feel a physical bottle where you can't go look at it, I want to lean into that. And so while the physical store might need to change, I hope it still exists. And I do think it should exist, but in a little bit different format. Instead of trying to have 5000 or 10,000 items on your shelves, and trying to have that inventory in that working capital and play that game. I'd love to see a world where you can almost have a retailer that has an e commerce DNA from day one. And then they have the experiential side of going in being able to taste products being an elevated experience knowing that on the back end, you can get any of those products delivered to you shipped to you or walk away with them from a warehouse around the corner. So they almost become showrooms informed by the DNA of e commerce versus having to compete in the current way of doing things today. 56:00 So So drizzly has been very active on the, you know, on the on the trade front. Where what do you do from a legislative perspective? Dr. You do you guys have a lobby firm that you're spending time in DC Do you do lobby in every state that you're in? Talk us through that particular process from the government perspective. 56:23 It's a core competency of ours. It's really what we were built on. So we have an internal team composed of General Counsel who has industry affairs experience, and then also the woman I mentioned Jackie fluke, who was on the New York State Liquor Authority, and they're really quarterbacking state by state, both almost legal protection side of things, and then an advocacy side for what we believe to be the best way to bring this industry online. We have lobbyists in every state that there is legislation moving we're in those rooms and our real thesis here is the engagement is important because I mean, we spend all day thinking about content tumors and the intersection of their needs and desires with a controlled and regulated substance. We want to be a part of that. And we think we can actually help doing so. So that actually speaks to something else we're doing, which is taking our platform into the cannabis world in the near future as well. 57:16 Oh, that's I think you hit on a pretty good topic there because we've we've actually covered on the podcast before what's the effect of cannabis and the, the, you know, this the distilled spirits market? What do you kind of see is the cannabis market kind of being an opportunity? 57:30 Well, I think it's a massive opportunity. And we started, you know, talking about market size. Alcohol is 130 billion dollars sold off premise each year 2% online. So you can do that math. We think cannabis is going to be a 30, maybe $35 billion legal market within five to seven years. But you're talking 40%, maybe even 50% online. It's a different consumer behavior, and there's no ingrained I know how to go to a store and there's no kind of behavior you need to break off, there's actually a stigma from going to a store. So all of that coming together, we think is a great opportunity. We do think it needs to be informed by alcohol legislation and the know how behind bringing alcohol online, it's just it needs to be treated with respect as a category. And that's one of the things we think we can really bring to that conversation. 58:22 Okay, so I have a request for your cannabis stuff, your delivery, you need to have guys on with backpacks on bicycles. Doing the deliveries through through town. 58:35 You mean like the movie half 58:36 but yeah, exactly. 58:40 Yeah, that's not gonna. 58:43 That wouldn't make it right. A legal team. 58:45 Yeah, no, you definitely wouldn't. But you could absolutely work beside me because I come up with these ideas all day long and get shot down. So it's good. I mean, it 58:54 is another thing that you know, even with the cannabis market, I mean, if you're, if you're always engrained in these legal discussions. Do you find it like fascinating that the legalization of cannabis and the l

The EU is debating whether funding to protect economies from the ravages of the Corona virus should come from centrally issued Corona Bonds, or from country-specific debt. In short, should Italy and Spain pay the price of their own misfortune and be landed with the bill to pay off for years to come, whilst totally sovereign nations, like the US, simply issue bonds which can be paid for by the central bank and for which the government has no intention of ever repaying. In this edition of Debunking Economics Phil Dobbie asks Prof Steve Keen whether the inflexibility of the Euro at a time like this will mean countries like Italy will no longer want to be part of it. Could this crisis expedite the demise of the Euro, and, perhaps, the EU itself? If so, is that a good thing? This podcast is FREE, but you'll get access to many more, in full, if you become a paying subscriber - either here, or by becoming a supporter of SDteve Keen on Patreon patreon.com/profstevekeen TRANSCRIPT PHIL DOBBIE [00:00:01] If you were Italy right now, or Spain, suffering thousands of deaths from the Corona virus and the EU, that body was there is there to unify Europe, was quibbling about how we should fund that support, wouldn't you be wondering whether EU membership was worth it? In fact, when this is over, and you are possibly riddled with more debt as a consequence from all of this, wouldn't you be thinking what is the point of staying in the EU? And could Italy and Spain and others quickly follow the UK on the back of the way the EU has dealt with the Corona virus? That's today on the Debunking Economics podcast. PHIL DOBBIE [00:00:38] I'm Phil Dobbie and Steve Keen is with me again, of course. The EU is meeting this week to discuss Corona Bonds, which is something Steve talked about weeks ago on this podcast - funding what could be generated through bonds which are bought by the European Central Bank and issued in large volumes to help countries suffering the most, that need the resources basically, to manage their way through this crisis. But some in the ECB, like Germany and the Netherlands, still see the funding coming through loans, just so those southern European countries don't get used to the idea of lots of free money. So they come out of this crisis with more austerity as they try and pay back those loans, just to add to the general sense of misery. Oh, Steve. The joys of the EU. Well, it is a joy for those who who live in the north of the EU anyway, because they don't have to go through all this austerity. STEVE KEEN [00:01:33] Yeah, it's incredible how the ideology can be sustained when reality is slapping it in the face and kicking in the balls. But that's what's going on. Particularly this is this is just particularly Germanic dedication to what's known as ordoliberalism, which is a combination of the sort of extreme libertarian attitude you'll find with a lot of American libertarian Austrian types combined with this Germanic idea that uou've got to enforce it, so that's where the ordo comes from. And they're saying we've got to get right back to austerity as soon as we finish this without thinking, well, if we didn't have austerity maybe we'd have enough beds right now in the hospitals and enough intensive care units to be able to cope, which we don't. PHIL DOBBIE [00:02:16] But Germany is covered, of course. I mean, they've got a it's very sad, but they've got almost 2000 deaths in Germany. But compare that to Italy, where it's over 17000, almost 18000 deaths. So, yeah, I mean, they're in a much better position. STEVE KEEN [00:02:31] Yeah, they've got the capacity to some extent. But having a decent public health system helps. They haven't destroyed that, whereas the Americans didn't have one to begin with. PHIL DOBBIE [00:02:41] And they've got they've got a government surplus (in Germany). So if they need to spend more money, they can dip into it. STEVE KEEN [00:02:47] That has no relevance whatsoever. But yes, I'll let you get away with that one. PHIL DOBBIE [00:02:50] But from from their point of view they're saying, yeah, we've got the government money. We can spend it. STEVE KEEN [00:02:57] Yeah, that's true. That's the reasoning they'll use unfortunately. PHIL DOBBIE [00:02:59] And Italy doesn't have that surplus. So people in the south aren't gonna buy this. When this is all done and dusted once this is all over, people in Greece and in Italy and in Spain and Portugal, they're all going to say, hang on a second, the EU didn't work for us in this occasion. There was no funding coming. We didn't get to make any extra funding. You didn't help out. What? What are we getting for our membership,. STEVE KEEN [00:03:24] Particularly Italy? Yeah. And in Spain, too. I mean, that's the situation with them is absolutely appalling .When the Italians can rely upon the Cubans and the Chinese more than they can upon their own neighbours, the whole idea of European solidarity ain't looking so crash hot. It's not solidarity. They've been locked into a death cult. PHIL DOBBIE [00:03:48] And the euro is the big problem here, isn't it? Because we've got one central bank. The one central bank issues the bonds. They determine if they are going to embark on quantitative easing. If they if they changed the regulations of the EU, which they have loosened, there's nothing to stop the Europeans agreeing that the the central bank will issue a mass of new debt, new bonds, and that will go to funding the crisis in Italy. There's nothing at all to stop that happening. As you say it's just ideology. STEVE KEEN [00:04:23] Yeah. And it's also that it's been set up in such a way that it can't make a decision, unles its a decision to increase austerity. Remember I voted for Britain leaving the EU. At the time I made the arguments in favour of it, not on the point of view of what would benefit Britain, but ultimately, it was an organisation that shouldn't they shouldn't exist given its policies. Somebody said, look, you can't say it's not Democratic. Look at this democratic structure here. The Democrat structure I saw was, first of all, the European Commission, a bunch of economic dominated bureaucrats, tthey draught the laws, not the parliament. The parliament cannot draught laws. The law is sent to the parliament for ratification or objection. And if the parliament votes against the law, it can also be voted for by the 19 finance ministers who meet independently and no records are kept at their meetings. That's why Yanis Varoufakis recent move to release all the recordings he made I think is a brilliant move because it shows us how stupidly and badly they behave. So the whole thing is set up in such a way that, whatever the commission wants to happen will happen. What everybody else wants to happen, you can get it can get ... well, I was only the words starting with F,. PHIL DOBBIE [00:05:38] Stuffed. Let's go to with stuffed. STEVE KEEN [00:05:41] Consequently, there is there is no capacity to make a decision unless it's a decision which supports the direction of the Maastricht Treaty and makes it even more difficult to spend or create government money in even more difficult to rescue people than in the dire circumstances of the Corona virus. So this could be the death knell. What I'd like to see happen is Italy to say, we've had enough, every bank account in Italy is now a Lira account, the new lira is worth one euro, we repudiate its national debts, including the German and French banks, you guys can get stuffed and we're starting our own monetary system again. PHIL DOBBIE [00:06:18] Do you think that will happen? I mean, Greece came so close to it, didn't they? I mean, Yanis was was on the verge of pushing that button, if he could have got support within his within his own government. Do you think Italy will, and if Italy does then obviously, Greece and Spain are not going to be far behind. STEVE KEEN [00:06:34] It's possible. I mean, Italy's got an apalling trajectory in terms of the number of deaths right now.And with the leader of being a populist right wing populist as well, it's a possibility. We actually discussed in a previous podcast, what would shift after this? Would people say we overreacted, but think Italy is one country where peole are going to say, right, this went really  badly and we've got to do something about it, and we're not taking Belgium bullshit anymore.  If weare going to do something Belgium doesn't like anymore, because Belgiumbeing the centre of the EU, then we're going to do it. And so I think there's a possibility that the fracture could come through Italy over the Corona crisis. PHIL DOBBIE [00:07:19] It's interesting when you look back at the foundation of the EU. It really came out of a crisis, that  crisis being that the Second World War. Then we had, the Marshall Plan, and it was America pumping large amounts of money into Germany to industrialize Germany and the concerns from the French that Germany was going to become too dominant, which is why that, early on, France wanted to share a currency to try and avoid the the imbalance. Of course, Germany had all that debt to the US, written off. How quickly they forget. STEVE KEEN [00:07:49] And they also do not let's not forget German debt to Greece, for God's sake, which the Greeks wrote off. So it is remarkable how fast we fail to learn from history. And this will be on the level of the Second World War, by the way. The impact is so great, so rapid, whether it can be avoided or not, whether we could have reacted in a different fashion or not, that doesn't change it. It will be the biggest economic crisis since since the Great Depression and the fastest shut down of productive resources since the Second World. PHIL DOBBIE [00:08:23] So, at the same time, we had all this fear, didn't we, during the Brexit campaign that the EU was going to allow Turkey into the EU? We did allow Hungary into the EU. Janos Ader say now is basically a dictator. He's got full powers. He's enacted no sunset clause on on when that power might end. He's still a member of the EU. So basically dictators are allowed in the EU now. STEVE KEEN [00:08:51] Yeah, well, they always were. The whole idea that its a democratic institution as a joke and the joke is being exposed right now because, what would people want on the ground, they want, for example, they want masks. Now you can't have them. They want ICU units. No you can't have them all. This is democratic, isn't it? PHIL DOBBIE [00:09:09] So it goes one way or the other, doesn't it? It either falls apart or it becomes, which is perhaps more dangerous, it pulls together more. And we've spoken about this before. If the EU acts as one nation, then one nation would not allow the southern part of the country to have such a massive death threat. That would be people like people in London laughing in cocktail bars while people in the north of England died of starvation. You can't allow that to happen. So Europe isn't behaving like one country. It wants to be more integrated, but it's still going to be a series of sovereign nations. And each of those nations is still going to be in it for what they can what they can get out of it. STEVE KEEN [00:09:49] Yeah, that's the trouble. I mean, there's is a certain sense of European commonality, not quite that dire, but nonetheless, the Europeans identify Swiss and Germans and Dutch, et cetera, et cetera, first, then European second. Americans identify as Americans first and Alabamans and Californians and so on, second. So this is thing even Milton Friedman realised was when he wrote in opposition to the formation of the euro in the very first instance, that you don't have the degree of commonality you need. Also, in a very important point, which even again, even Milton Friedman realised this, you don't have a common treasury. Without a common treasury the expenses get passed from one effectively state treasury to another, which are spending constrained. And they resent, therefore, people moving from one state to another because you impose the burden of the wealth in that person on their recipients state. So all these things just argue against the EU and the Euro from the very first outset. And the whole thing about it, is was supposed to strengthen Europe. Well, great. What's fabulous strengthening this has been. This has. First of all, it amplified the impact of the crisis back in 2008. Now its having a debilitating impact upon its capacity to respond to the Corona virus. They'd be better off by separating. And this is the great tragedy of the European Union. PHIL DOBBIE [00:11:05] Well, so will it then? If if Italy says that's it, as you say, we're going we're not going to pay off our debts, so you can get stuffed. So they pull out of the euro, even if they don't pull out of the EU,  and they went back to to the to their own currency, the lira, the that would pretty quickly devalue. They would have a competitive edge against Germany. They could build a manufacturing base to challenge Germany over time and a far healthier future for Italy. So why wouldn't they do it and why wouldn't everyone else follow them? STEVE KEEN [00:11:49]  I can still see people sticking on saying that we've got to maintain the euro. I wish people would learn from these sort of experiences. But again, as I've said in the last podcast, experience has made me rather pessimistic about the capacity of people to learn from experience. However, if the Italians did pull out and did go back to the Lira and could devalue against the euro, then they would lose one of the two main problems have had fromthe euro to begin with, which is, with a lower inflation rate than Germany, necessarily their goods got more expensive over time because they were not able to devalue. Once they can devalue, the difference in inflation rates doesn't matter. And therefore, the competitiveness that Lamborghini and Ferrari and Fiat have lost against Mercedes Benz and BMW would disappear and they could restrengthen their manufacturing sector. So it would be an amazing lesson in how how bad an idea was to form the euro in the first place, to get out of the damn thing and see the economy do quite well. And by the way, if they did actually write off all their debts, it's quite possible they could revalue against the euro and still do well, because they wouldn't be carrying any debts, whereas the rest of the European Union would. PHIL DOBBIE [00:13:01] And they could do that. Can they? STEVE KEEN [00:13:03] Yeh. Plenty of countries have written off their foreign debts in the past and as soon as they do it, people say your currency is going to plunge in value, because the market won't trust you. 30 seconds later, the bond traders absorb the whole experience and they're now buying your currency because you're no longer debt encumbered. PHIL DOBBIE [00:13:21] So what does it do to the banking sector in the in that process, though? STEVE KEEN [00:13:25] Well, again, you've got you've got to be ready at the central bank. There is actually an Italian central bank. Every European country has its own central bank. It just doesn't have a power to issue a currency. Suddenly you've got the power and you can therefore provide as much in the way of assets to the banking sector, so that its liabilities don'texceed the assets and therefore they don't go bankrupt, you can do that instantly. Then they would they would enable the banking sector to continue operating. PHIL DOBBIE [00:13:52] So say Italy and others then say, well, we're going to follow the same path - if that threat is made to the EU, is the EU going to look for a halfway house? Maybe the idea that everyone can have their own independent currencies, their own independent bank, and we just have a common trading currency, like we used to with the ECU. That is stripping back the EU so it becomes more like the common market. You get to that stage, then Britain might say, well, you know what, we don't want to be in the EU, but we might be part of this. STEVE KEEN [00:14:31] The common market was a relatively sensible idea. It gave you a chance to have economies of scale across the whole continent, which was the objective of the European Union in the first instance. The mistake was forming the Euro as well. So, yes, you could be quite effective. And my argument always been, use the euro for international trade, to trade between countries of the European Union, use your own currency domestically. And that the real appeal to the public of the euro, and I've experienced this with the amount of travelling I've done in the European Union, is you follow exactly the same currency - you face no currency loss when you go from Germany to France, Italy to Spain and so on. And that's personally a very attractive advantage of the euro. My argument has been ,let the European Central Bank take over the currency conversion responsibilities. So you give all the private institutions impossible competition. The government bureaucracy converts the currency at exactly the exchange rate. If you have a thousand lira and that's worth two thousand Francs, you walk in with a thousand lire, you walk out with two thousand francs, you suffer zero currency loss going from one country to another. That'd be a central role for also the European Central Bank. And then with that there's no need to have the same currency across the whole of the continent. As a community, you ensure that no individual loses out of the ridiculous mark-ups that these companies make for exchanging currency. PHIL DOBBIE [00:15:59] But you know what? I wonder whether, in fact, that that becomes less of an issue going forward as we have more technology and more competition for that side of the banking sector for foreign exchange, which we're seeing quite a lot of. So you have a you have a card. You don't you don't really care. You go from you go from Germany into Italy. You switch currencies. You've got a vague awareness of what the exchange rate may be. And you've signed up to a bank or a card which is going to give you the best possible exchange rate. Does it really matter? STEVE KEEN [00:16:31] Well, I'm a heavy user of transferwise, for example. An unsponsored advertisement. it's a fabulous service transferwise and it saved me a large amount of money. PHIL DOBBIE [00:16:42] Other ones are available. WorldFirst and OFX. STEVE KEEN [00:16:45]  It's brilliant. They totally undercut the incredible mark-ups and the made in all those foreign to currency changes. I don't really worry about the cost going from one currency to the right anymore. I use the same card everywhere. PHIL DOBBIE [00:16:57]  So the idea of the euro being one unified currency to make it easy as you move around and as you trade. I'm just wondering whether that selling proposition is rapidly disappearing, so one of the key reasons for the euro, perhaps as is not such a key reason anymore. STEVE KEEN [00:17:13] Which it was a key reason back in 2000, maybe, or 1999, obviously.  But you're right, now that that's there's the technology and the fact that is an enormous financial incentive there for people to move into that particular space, that's a classic case of capitalism innovating to take advantage of a large discontinuity in the economy. PHIL DOBBIE [00:17:31] So if was to happen, if the euro did disappear, could the EU survive without it? And what form would that take, do you think? STEVE KEEN [00:17:37] Well, to go back to being a common market, that's all we need it to be. A common market, and you'd have a forum resolve disputes between states. And it should be one where where the states have representatives, the Italian, the French, the German, etc, governments coming together just to have conversations, not having idea of a bloody parliament, which itself is a farce. The parliament, as I said before, only decide to do what the European Commission tells it to do. Nothing like a democracy. The whole idea of the European Union, from the ordinary Europeans point of view is to end the old internecine warfare of the European continent. But from the point of view of the bureaucrats, who is it getting people out of the way and let the bureaucrats run everything. Because obviously with democracy that gave us fascism. PHIL DOBBIE [00:18:23] But it also gave us Donald Trump. STEVE KEEN [00:18:27] So, you know, I'm not saying democracy is perfect by any stretch. And I want to get rid of it and replace it with a set of skilled individuals who don't want to do the job, who are system dynamic specialists and united by intelligent software. That's what we really need to run the complex system of the world we're in these days rather than the popularity contest of standard democracy. PHIL DOBBIE [00:18:46] Right. Okay.  Are you going to be the head of that government as well? I mean, you. STEVE KEEN [00:18:51] So please, please, please. PHIL DOBBIE [00:18:57] Herr Keen. My arms in the air, as I talk to you,. STEVE KEEN [00:18:59] I'm tickling your underarms. PHIL DOBBIE [00:19:02] I'm loving it. STEVE KEEN [00:19:09] Let's let's let's listen to a podcast on that particular issue - democracy versus versus systemic governance. That's that's an important point later on. PHIL DOBBIE [00:19:18] Gee. All right. So back to the EU, though. I mean, what we're describing then, really is that it's a common market. There has to be agreement on standards. Do you do governments then say, well, we're gonna have this common common market, we need to make sure you're not subsidizing your products and dumping products on our market because you've given so much state subsidy. I guess you still need regulations like that, don't you?  So that you've got a level playing field. STEVE KEEN [00:19:50] You know, some sort of commonality. It's common market, it has to have common regulations. So that's okay. It's the imposition of the budgetary noose of the Maastricht Treaty and the inability of any decision to be reached that isn't something the European Commission wants. It's having bureaucrats,  who are mainly trained economists and that's the bloody problem. Trained engineers would be a damn sight better. PHIL DOBBIE [00:20:18] Right. But a lot of it is just finding commonality of a level playing field for competition isn't it? so setting setting standards. I mean you're not going to do that by parliament. Someone's got to establish what their standards are going to be. STEVE KEEN [00:20:30] Equally, at the same point, there's also one thing I hope we learn out of this crisis, is that the whole year of a globalised integrated economy is a mistake at a biological level. You need to have regionalized economies. I've been arguing for a long time that we need a biological approach to economics in general, and that would never have had us having globalised production systems, because globalised production systems are great for pathogens. They are not fabulous with humans. So I hope we learned that lesson that we don't go back to the obsession about bigger and bigger trading blocks, and more and more free trade, and more and more transportation around the planet, etc, etc. More and more consumption of oil. PHIL DOBBIE [00:21:08] But that is a good reason for making sure that the trade within the EU continues then isn't it? So that the UK is not shipping a whole load of stuff across the ocean from the US or from South America or from China. We are better off eating fruit, for example, that comes from the south of Europe STEVE KEEN [00:21:29] Exactly. You try to divine a regional trading bloc. I'm not my actual principle here is what's called the von Neumann machine. Had ever heard of that one? PHIL DOBBIE [00:21:36] I think I had one but I couldn't work the instructions. STEVE KEEN [00:21:39] No, you didn't. A von Neumann machine is a machine, that can make other machines and also make itself. One of the most brilliant men of all time, von Neumann, came up with the concept of this. He said humanity needs to create a machine which is capable of making all of the other machines needed, as well as reproducing itself. And then you'd send that inter outer space and you could colonize the entire galaxy. But the idea, we should think in terms of creating regions of the planet, which are von Neumann machines, meaning they create everything they need as well being able to reproduce themselves over time. So you say, what scale do we need for this region to be self-contained and have multiple self-contained regions lik,e that which don't need to trade with others. You don't go for this obsession with a globalised approach because that works in favour of the pathogens, that works in favour of humans overloading the planet, completely ignoring the other species, and then we get the biological venereal disease coming back at us. PHIL DOBBIE [00:22:43] But I mean, all the more reason for the EU to, in some form, even if it is just a common market working to common standards, but everybody has their own central bank, they determine the way they operate, how much they borrow, how much that their debt to GDP ratio is they are that totally independent sovereign nations, but they have a common agreement on what they're going to sell and the standards between them. That's gotta be the utopia, hasn't it? Because it does create that trading bloc that the EU could then say, well, we really don't need anyone else. STEVE KEEN [00:23:19] To reach that Utopia we've had to go through a dyspotian experience was necessary. But, yes, treating it as a regional production system, intending to achieve overall self-sufficiency across all the products that are necessary to sustain a decent high human society and a decent environment, not just for ourselves, but for the other species on the planet. That's the way we should be thinking in the future. PHIL DOBBIE [00:23:46] Is that going to happen, though? Will the EU survive the way it is? Could, for example, if Italy say we want out of the euro, but we'll stay in the EU,  to which that the payoff would be you can't write off all your debt, you don't have to pay it up back after off over over 20 years. You're gonna have to live in austerity and and perhaps more people will die from malnutrition than died from from the virus as you attempt to pay all this back. That seems more likely than Italy pulling out totally and the EU collapsing, doesn't it, sadly? STEVE KEEN [00:24:21] Yeah. I mean, the thing is, though, lets remember there have been other Pan European and pan global organisations which have disappeared. For example, what's the most recent announcement of the League of Nations? PHIL DOBBIE [00:24:33] Yeah, they have been very quiet lately, haven't they? STEVE KEEN [00:24:36] Died about 80 years ago. It was killed by the First World War. So these organisations have failed in the past. And I can think of no better organisation to fail than the European Union. PHIL DOBBIE [00:24:49]  But we don't. But we don't want it to disappear and then just have a series of independent nations do we? STEVE KEEN [00:24:58]  Yanis Varoufakis has finally come around to saying he reckoned the British did the right thing for the wrong reasons when leaving the European Union. It's very hard to expect somebody to who's you whose entire life has been around trying to globalise everything and trying to minimise trade barriers, and letting competition rip and ignoring sustainability while pushing efficiency, it's very hard to have a person suddenly flip over to a biological way of thinking. You have simply got the wrong people in there and getting rid of them is impossible in a bureaucracy. So. It may be that it has to fail to be replaced by something more sensible. PHIL DOBBIE [00:25:41] I wonder what would replace it. Could we in fact get a group of countries like perhaps France, maybe we'll include Germany, the UK and Ireland and Spain and Greece saying, well, okay, let's if that's all fallen apart, but we need to trade with each other because we've got so much trade across all on across our borders, so let's at least agree some standards and let's form the new EU. STEVE KEEN [00:26:03] That's definitely what happens, I think. And the emphasis has to be on the ecological and social sustainability of the society, not this obsession with competition and efficiency. So it could happen, but I certainly can't see the bureaucrats in Brussels being the ones who lead the charge. PHIL DOBBIE [00:26:20] And how quickly is it going to fall apart? Then, do you reckon? Is that going to be after this, after over this virus, the second half of this year, is this gonna be the big story? STEVE KEEN [00:26:28] No, again, because of my cynicism about people's capacity to learn from experience. I think we'll go through this, there will be in aftermath. We will continue on and then something else will hit us. I mean, 2020 has been a one and a dog of the year. We had the fires in Australia and the floods in Australia, then the locust plagues in Africa, which we've stopped talking about but is probably still happening, now the Corona virus. We're only one third of the way into the year. What the hell's going to come along next? PHIL DOBBIE [00:27:00] Well, we've got a lot more of this to go havcen't we? I think this is going to keep us going for the rest of the year. But the idea that this will be almost swept under the carpet, and its oging to take something else to disturb the EU, I wonder if that's the case, because, look, it's over 17000 deaths now in Italy, less than 2000 in Germany and 14000 in Spain. There's such a huge difference, a huge disparity, between nations. And surely people are going to be looking at that and saying, how did we allow this to happen? I mean, we're talking about the price on human life. Surely there's going to be some recompense from all of this. STEVE KEEN [00:27:36] Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, just looking at the doubling rate, by the way, for Germany is not looking as healthy as a doubling rate for Spain right now, strangely enough. So maybe, maybe there'll be a price to pay in the future. PHIL DOBBIE [00:27:52] And that's the bad news, because if Germany gets hit as much as everybody else, then that argument that there's a disparity on this disappears. To which the conclusion will be in Germany and from the powers behind the EU, that that was a crisis that we all faced, we all paid the price for it, now, let's carry on as normal. STEVE KEEN [00:28:14] This was a crisis nobody expected except anybody who'd read Laurie Garrett's 'The Coming Plague.'  And these are people who've been completely sidelined with the redesign of society. These are epidemiologists, the specialists in humans as a biological species, not humans as the dominant economic force on the planet. They're the ones who saw this coming. They've been sidelined. The one thing I hope to happen is, is that we pay much less attention to bloodyeconomists and a damn sight more to epidemiologists, engineers, physicists and atmospheric scientists. They're the people we need to listen to, not bloody economists. The EU was built by economists. That's one of the best reasons to get rid of it. PHIL DOBBIE [00:28:55] We should leave it there. But one final question is, I mean, a lot of it does relate to the acceptance of debt, doesn't it? That's the core of all of this. So German debt to GDP is 60 or 70 percent government debt versus 200 percent in Japan.  The US is shooting up there as well. Greece, I think, is less than 200 percent. Italy is relatively low. If you ijust said, well, okay, let's accept 200 percent as acceptable. Then you would have allowed a massive increase in spending. STEVE KEEN [00:29:28] Yeah. Government deb is not the problem. We've had many talks on this issue in terms of the financial issues as well, but the whole obsession with government debt has always been wrong. It's always come out of neoclassical economics and applying a household analogy to an overall economy. It's the private debt that matters. That's what's caused all the dilemmas. That's what has led to the boom beforehand and the bust as well. Hopefully, some of that understanding will get through during this crisis as well. PHIL DOBBIE [00:30:00] Right. So if the EU survive, but they accepted that point, could it could it survive and do good rather than be evil. If it if it accepted the fact that we should allow countries to run much heavier debt. STEVE KEEN [00:30:14] Potentially, but again, that means countries would have divergent inflation rates. The euro should not survive. That's the one thing, the euro should not survive. The European Union potentially could survive,  if it if it learns from this crisis and fundamentally changes its direction. But that's like expecting a Ptolemaic astronomer to suddenly understand Copernicus and stop drawing epicycles and start thinking about ellipsis centred on the sun. People's minds a rereshaped by the belief systems they have, and that reshaping means they are simply incapable, their neurones are wired their own way. It is it is not possible for someone to change the neurological wiring as fast as it is for a new person to come along with a fairly open neural network and relearn these issues. So in many ways we just got to retire the people who currently run the European Union. If we could keep the buildings and send the people off to retirement homes, we might get somewhere. PHIL DOBBIE [00:31:14] Generational change is what you're talking about, isn't it? And they're all looking pretty old. Time to shuffle on and do your next thing. Good to talk Steve.  PHIL DOBBIE [00:31:25] And talking about neoclassical economics, we are going to look at Adam Smith next time. Is there anything good that came out of Adam Smith's work? Anything that we can take and say, well, that was all right. We'll look at that next time on the Debunking Economics podcast with Professor Steve Keen. I'm Phil Dobbie. See you then.

Since we’re all stuck at home, here's some cooking advice to help you through. Chef Mark Allison has three boys.. one of whom was diagnosed with type 1 as a baby. He has tips and tricks for us.. starting with: just get started. Mark teaches healthy cooking but isn’t above eating smores with his three sons. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Mark currently works with the Cabarrus County Health Alliance teaching needed home cooking skills. He’s been the Director of Culinary Nutrition for the Dole Nutrition Institute and he spent many years teaching classical chefs at the Dean of Culinary Arts Education at Johnson & Wales University in Charlotte. Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Mark has a new book out Let's Be Smart About Diabetes: A cookbook to help control blood sugar while getting the family back around the kitchen table In Tell Me Something Good – a lot of mac and cheese and a lot of help for someone who has always been giving it. Talk about paying it forward… and back. Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcript (Rough transcription, has not been edited) Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by one drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by real good foods, real food you feel good about eating and by dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with dexcom.   Unknown Speaker  0:20 This is diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  0:26 This week, how are you eating these days? Some kitchen and cooking advice to help us through Chef Mark Allison knows his way around the kitchen with a family he has three boys one of whom was diagnosed with type one as a baby. As a professional chef teacher. He says just get started   Chef Mark Allison  0:45 getting in that kitchen and making something over the next 30 or 40 minutes and then sitting down eating the food but actually having a conversation instead of everybody upstairs playing Xbox or some kind of games. You're actually in one room. Communicate it and you make them so think that hopefully everybody's going to enjoy.   Stacey Simms  1:03 You'll hear Mark's unique story. He and his wife moved to Alaska for an international program back in 1999. And their 14 month old son was diagnosed shortly after that in Tell me something good. A little bit of help for someone who's been giving a lot of it, talk about paying it forward and back, and a lot of mac and cheese. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of diabetes connections we aim to educate and inspire by sharing stories of connection and in this time, it is so important to stay connected. On this week's show. We are not going to be talking specifically about the corona virus. Rather, this is a show that will maybe inspire you or help you to get in the kitchen at this time when we are all first in our house and I don't know about you, but I've been Looking more than ever, but maybe to look at things a little bit differently, get your kids involved, try something new. I was so excited to talk to Mark Ellis. And we've known each other for a long time. And I've been trying to get him on the show. And it's just one of those. You know, the beauty is in the timing sometimes, because maybe this episode will kind of give you a fun day and some fun ideas to try at a time when boy, we do need a little bit of fun, and a little bit of inspiration. So there will be more information about Mark's cookbook. Let's be smart about diabetes a little bit later on. And I would urge you if you're not already in the Facebook group to please join that it is diabetes connections, the group because I'm going to be putting some of the recipes and notes that he gave me into the Facebook group, I cannot put them in the show notes. It's just a format thing. So I apologize for that. They will not be on the episode homepage, but they will be in posts in the Facebook group. So head on over there to that. And just another quick note before we get started. Thank you to everybody who continues to buy my book, the world's First diabetes mom, if you need a laugh in these times, maybe it's there for you. I've heard from people who are really enjoying it right now who have the audio book to who maybe didn't have time to listen before, although I mostly listen to audiobooks in my car. So my audio book and podcasts consumption, frankly, is way down right now. Because I'm at home, I'm not commuting. I'm not driving anywhere. But I do listen when I clean and do laundry and stuff like that. So maybe that's it. But thanks again, the world's worst diabetes mom is available at Amazon. It is in paperback, Kindle and audiobook. You could also buy it over at diabetes, connections calm but frankly, Amazon's probably the easiest right now. And I was so happy to be involved in the children with diabetes virtual conference that happened recently. I bet you can still find that online. I was able to take my world's worst diabetes mom presentation for them. Of course, as you know, like many of you, I was planning to go to lots of diabetes conferences in the last month and this spring and it's all on hold right now. So a little bit of online goodness. For you, I will also link up the children with diabetes conference which had tons of presentations in it. I think it's going to be a real resource going forward for a lot of people so I'm thrilled that they did that. All right Mark Ellison coming up in just a moment but first diabetes Connections is brought to you by real good foods. We got a sample of the real good foods ice cream. They sent it to us a Benny and I did a Facebook Live. I think it's almost three weeks ago now. Wow. About what we thought our reactions and I gotta tell you, I have been enjoying the real good ice cream since then. It is so delicious. It is a lower sugar ice cream that tastes like ice cream. You have probably had ice creams that are lower carb that tastes kind of chunky and chalky. And there isn't none of that I sat down. I shouldn't say this. I ate almost the entire pint of the mint chocolate chip. I stopped myself but it was going there. So check them out. You can find out more at really good foods calm. They ship. Yes, they're the grocery store for you. Right now I know a lot of you and us included group looking at home delivery, and you can find all of their stuff online. They'll deliver it for you some great shipping deals as well. Just go to diabetes, connections comm and click on the real good foods logo.   My guest this week is a terrific chef, who as you know here teaches healthy cooking, but isn't above eating s'mores with his three sons. Mark Allison works with the cabarrus County Health Alliance, a local county to me here in North Carolina teaching needed home cooking skills. He has been the director of culinary nutrition for the dole nutrition Institute, and he spent many years teaching classical chefs as the Dean of culinary arts education at Johnson and Wales University here in Charlotte. Yes, Johnson Wales does have a campus here in Charlotte. One of Mark's sons was diagnosed with type one as a baby and his wife was diagnosed with stage four cancer in 2008. Now she did pass away But as you'll hear it His wife was able to live longer than anybody expected her to, which he says really made him a believer in the power of a plant based diet to fight disease and prolong life. Mark has a new book out called Let's be smart about diabetes, a cookbook to help control blood sugar while getting the family back around the kitchen table. We are putting recipes in the Facebook group, as I said, and of course links in the show notes. Here's my talk with Chef Mark. Allison. Mark, thank you so much for making some time for me. I know you've got all your boys home. And while we're not, I guess we're not doing much these days. It still seems like the time is filling up. But thanks for being here. I appreciate it.   Chef Mark Allison  6:40 They see You're very welcome. And it's a pleasure to be on your show. Thank you very much.   Stacey Simms  6:43 I'm excited to talk to you. We've known each other for a long time. I was thinking I think we met possibly the Johnson and Wales cooking competition of some kind where I was an extremely unqualified judge.   Chef Mark Allison  6:59 The good old days here In the good old days, Yes, I remember you there and you were totally qualified for the position to be church exceptionally well because I enjoy eating.   Stacey Simms  7:11 So there you go   Chef Mark Allison  7:12 to nature, you know, in my opinion chef is fitted very nicely into my lifestyle, because I love to eat. I love it.   Stacey Simms  7:19 Well, you know, I want to pick your brain as long as we have you to talk about how to try to eat well, as long as you know, we're all stuck at home. But let's talk about let's talk about diabetes. First, let's get your story out because I know everyone already hearing you knows that you are your native to North Carolina. That's a beautiful Southern accent that you   Chef Mark Allison  7:37 see I was born in Charleston, South Carolina. People get that mixed up all the time. I'm actually from a little town called at Newcastle upon Tyne which is in the northeast of England. And I grew up there and the place where the usually state calls from Newcastle on Newcastle brown ale on Newcastle soccer club whether the three things that people read knowing you're comfortable, but that's where I was born. I moved to South Wales and lived in South Wales for 10 years, traveled all over Europe and in 2004 landed in Charleston, South Carolina, lived there for yet then moved up to Charlotte and I've been in Charlotte now 15 years and absolutely love living in Charles. That's great.   Stacey Simms  8:20 All right, so but your your diabetes story your son's really starts in Alaska. Can you tell us that   Chef Mark Allison  8:26 I was one of 30 people fit by the Fulbright teachers Experience Program, which is a program that started after world war two to get the world together through education. And teachers apply and they are asked to go to different countries around the world. And I was asked to go to America and I thought Yes, this is going to be fabulous. being brought up in the 70s in the 80s. On Starsky and Hutch and streets of San Francisco. I naturally thought I was going to California, but I would have 500 teachers that apply to come to Europe, there was only one chef and he did not live in California. He actually lived in Anchorage, Alaska. And we actually turned down the position first because my wife said we are not taking a two year old and an eight month to Alaska. So we turned it down. And then Glen, the teacher rang me over to him and said, Look, can you do me a favor? This is the fourth year I have applied. And my daughter has won a four year scholarship at Oxford University and this is her last year. Can you please take the position so we can be with her for the last year that is in the UK. So we decided to move over that and we actually had an absolute fabulous year. But while we were living there, Matthew, my youngest son at the time, who was it month when we arrived, when you go to the age of 14 months, he became ill, and we took him to the doctors and the doctor said he just had a bad case of the flu, he'd be okay. And about a week later, he had lost a tremendous amount of weight. He was drinking a lot of fluids and just happened to be Tom My brother on the forum that weekend who is a type one diabetic and has been since the age of 15 years old. And he said, I think he may be a type one take him back to the doctor's. So we took Matthew back. And we had a young doctor, she was lovely lady. But she said, there's no way as a type one diabetic it normally it's going to be about seven or eight years old. He's only 14 months. And she just said, No, I'm not testing as blood. So of course, my wife who was there, like any mother has said, well, we're not leaving your office until you actually test his blood. So there was a bit of a standoff for about 30 minutes. And then she tested this blood and within 30 minutes, Matthew is in intensive care and he was there for the next seven years. And his blood sugar's were so far through the roof that we were told that we had left her office and went to him more than likely would have been in a coma that night. So we were exceptionally lucky. And the doctor from that stage could not do enough for us as he was at his bedside every day. And as you know, Life changes. So we decided to look at food as sort of medicine and changed all our eating habits for Matthew. So from the age of 14 month, Matthew has been on a really healthy diet, you know, just turned 22 in December, and he's in great shape, but he's at college at the minute, and he's doing exceptionally well. But that's where it all started back in 1999.   Stacey Simms  11:24 And I think it's worth repeating for people who are you who have children who are newer diagnosed or maybe have been newer diagnosed themselves. There really was this thinking because the same thing happened to us, Ben, he wasn't yet two years old. And they said, Yeah, under the age of two, it's Yeah, it'd be type one. There was this thinking and I don't know if it's just that they're getting better at it or there are more cases and infants and babies, but it has changed a lot thanks to people like you push an educated Oh my goodness.   Chef Mark Allison  11:51 You know, it is frightening. Because you've got your doctor and you just think they've got all the answers. And but something like Type One Diabetes is you know, in Now it's becoming more and more people become more and more aware. I remember when my brother was diagnosed that he was in hospital for six months because they were unsure of actually what it was. And the unfortunate thing for my brother, he was 15 at the time, so he was nearly an adult in England. And he was actually on a cancer Ward for six months, and was frightening with him was he was watching people that were dying around him. And unfortunately, that marked him for life. He is now nearly 60 and he's in good shape and he's healthy. But he still remembers them times where people were actually dying around them because they thought he didn't have diabetes for 30 years cancer at the time, but times have changed and I think it's a lot more easy to diagnose now. And we've got great doctors, people like that more fonder. Well, it's just amazing. I think now we can rely on the medical professionals to diagnose a lot quicker than what was said 20 years ago.   Stacey Simms  12:58 And when you're Your son and your brother must have had some interesting conversations about not only the difference of diagnosis, but the difference of treatments. I mean, I'm so your brother is doing well, because I can't imagine.   Chef Mark Allison  13:11 Well, my I can remember my mother have sterilized his syringe and needles every night. Because the other days, whether we're like the one inch long needles, and you could reuse them, and the syringe was reused, and he was getting injected twice a day, now he's on the pen. So you've worked a lot better for him, but I can remember those days and the previous thing, and testing was blurred and then cleaning the syringe and countless cops. It was a difficult time for my mother. I know that.   Stacey Simms  13:44 I feel you never want to say we're lucky with diabetes because it still stinks. Yeah, but also to make me grateful for insulin pumps and pens. My good.   Chef Mark Allison  13:54 Yeah, my back muscles just changed over to a new pump. The Omni pod and you know, he He's been on the pump for at least the last 12 years and what a difference others made. You know, we as parents, I'm sure you have the same feel a lot easier that he's on something that basically regulates everything. And as long as he tests his blood, he knows when he's either going to go low, go high. And these instruments these days are just amazing.   Stacey Simms  14:21 It really is. I feel really grateful. Yeah, let's jump in and let's talk about food. Because not only are you a renowned chef and a you know, an educator of other chefs, but now you work to educate the public which I just think is absolutely amazing because we need all the help we can get mark, as you well know. First of all, let me let you explain what it is that you do you work for the Harris County Health Alliance, which is a nearby you know, county to mine here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. What do you do right now in terms of teaching the public   right back to mark answering Question, but first getting diabetes supplies is a pain. Not only the ordering and the picking up but also the arguing with insurance over what they say you need and what you really need. Make it easy with one drop. They offer personalized tester plants. Plus you get a Bluetooth glucose meter test strips lancets and your very own certified diabetes coach. Subscribe today to get test strips for less than $20 a month delivered right to your door. No prescriptions or co pays required. One less thing to worry about. not that surprising when you learn that the founder of one drop lubes with type one, they get it one drop, gorgeous gear supplies delivered to your door 24 seven access to your certified diabetes coach learn more go to diabetes connections comm and click on the one drop logo. Now back to mark and he is answering my question about teaching people the very basics.   Chef Mark Allison  15:55 I have a wonderful job and it's funny how I started the shop at 16 and I printed with French cuisine, and lots of thoughts, sugar and salt, and nobody counted calories or anything. And now I've went closer to being a healthy chef. And I tried to teach people how to improve their diets. So I work for the cabarrus Health Alliance, which is based in kannapolis. And my job is a fascinating job. And the fact that I go out to the general public, I go to schools and hospitals and churches, and I also do cooking classes at the cabarrus Health Alliance, and I try to teach people how to cook because if you think about it, Stacy, cooking is a life skill, but nobody knows how to cook these days. What I noticed just last week, when the food stores were out of canned goods and frozen goods, actually the produce section was still full. And my advice to anybody, especially at this time with the corona virus is eat healthy by eating as many fruits and vegetables as you possibly can because they're just packed full of vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals. So my job at the Cabal ourselves Lyons is basically trying to teach people how to cook and choose better food choices, and not so much processed food, not so much food that is packed with fat, sugar, salt, and try to get a healthy balance. You know, it doesn't all have to be healthy. But if you do choose healthy options, you'll feel better. Your health will improve and it'll fight off viruses.   Stacey Simms  17:23 So when we're all stuck at home and we have this mentality, which is this is very unique, obviously. Yeah, I mean unprecedented. But now that we're stuck at home, what would your advice be? Because I did the same thing I'll be honest with you when I went to the grocery store a couple of days ago, I picked up you know, some apples some oranges, but I wasn't I was thinking hunker down. Yeah, I bypassed a lot of the fresh fruits and vegetables now that it seems and again we're as we're recording this, it seems like the grocery stores are gonna be fine. There's no problem with supply. What What would you suggest we do next time we go to the store,   Chef Mark Allison  17:54 I would look at the air fresh produce and you know, start by Picking the fruits and vegetables that you like to eat. And then why not try something different? Something that you've seen before. But though you know what, I wonder what that tastes like, give it a try. You'll be amazed, I normally teach this in class where we'll have like a surprise ingredient. And part of the classes, everybody's going to try everything I make. And I might have a fresh fruit or vegetable and I chop it up and I pass it around. And it's amazing that nine times out of 10 everybody likes it. We've got these preconceived notions that we'll look at something think No, I don't think I like that for actually when you put it in your mouth and try it more than likely you're going to try something new and it's going to be interesting, then you're going to enjoy the test. So I would go around the fresh produce section and try something new, try something different. And I found the best way so especially with having three boys, if I wouldn't try something new with them. I normally just make a smoothie or soup because you can easily add something new and disguise it and they don't even know that they're in and then we told them that believe in something new. See, you know what, that wasn't too bad. Let's try it again. So I think it's all about experiment. And we've got the ideal time that you've just said, There. See, we're all cooped up at home. Why not get in the kitchen with the boys or girls, or family members and make something delicious to eat tonight? I've got to be honest, people tell me when they asked what I do for a living, I say, well, I've never worked a day in my life because I love what I do, which is I love food, and I love to cook. But our sound, it's the best way to make new friends. It's the best way to keep the family together, getting in that kitchen and making something over the next 30 or 40 minutes and then sitting down eating the food but actually having a conversation. Instead of everybody upstairs playing Xbox or some kind of games. You actually in one room communicate and you're making something that hopefully everybody's going to enjoy.   Stacey Simms  19:50 Alright, a lot of people listening are gonna say, Well, sure that sounds great. But I never learned to cook. I'm afraid to cook. My Stuff always comes out. Terrible. How can you start adults who really did not learn the skill?   Chef Mark Allison  20:05 You know what I was very lucky because when all my friends chose to do woodwork and metalwork, I was doing home economics. And as you can imagine, back in the 70s and 80s, that didn't go down too well with a lot of the guys, but you know what my thinking was, they see one instead of being locked up in a room with 19, sweaty guys, I was in an air conditioned room with 19 girls. And it worked out pretty good, because I found out very quickly two things. Everybody likes people who can cook and it's the best way to make friends. So I understand that a lot of people don't know how to cook. But actually, you can go online now and on YouTube, and you can learn practically any technique that you need. And I'll tell people all you really need to start with is a chopping board and a knife, and then find a recipe that you've always wanted to try. And you can easily download any recipe now from online or watch a YouTube video and cooking There's one of the simplest things you can ever learn. It's all about temperature control. It's either gonna be hot or cold. And if you can control the temperature you can make and eat anything you like. Wow.   Stacey Simms  21:11 Do you remember I'll put you on the spot here. Do you remember what you first taught your boys to make when they were little I pictured them standing on stools in the kitchen, you know, learning from dad,   Chef Mark Allison  21:21 and properly. And this isn't exactly healthy. And actually, we did this last night, we were sitting in the backyard having a fire pit and we all had smalls. So I'm guessing probably smalls are probably one of the very first recipes. I taught my boys. But I also taught them something very important. It's all about moderation. Whatever you make, have it in moderation. But my three boys all know how to cook, obviously, because they've been brought up by a chef. I tell people when I'm at work, I'll text my boys and be the dishwasher, prepare the vegetables, set the kitchen table, and then when I get home, all that's done, and then we get in the kitchen together and we cook dinner That night, but if I forget the text one day, believe it or not today, see, I get home and nothing has been done because boys are boys.   Stacey Simms  22:08 Oh, yeah, I've been there with both of my kids boys and girls. Yeah. Oh yeah, but you didn't send the text that's funny but I'm you know, it's good to know you're human. I think it's always more fun to know with the s'mores, right that you know, yeah. And food and it's fun to learn. And then you can use those skills. I don't know what quite what skills are making but you have to control the temperature.   Chef Mark Allison  22:33 Don't right. Yeah, that was our main skill. I think   Stacey Simms  22:36 that's an important one in the kitchen.   Chef Mark Allison  22:38 people. People ask me all the time, how do you make a healthy dessert mock and I'll say there's no such thing as a healthy dessert. So just enjoy whatever you're going to eat but have a smaller portion.   Stacey Simms  22:50 You're not free and substitutes and things like that.   Chef Mark Allison  22:53 I don't use any sugar free ingredients if I'm going to make something and add sugar and the sugar because normally Even if you make an a cake and asks for half a cup of sugar, when you consider that cake is going to divide a divided into eight or 10 portions, that half cup of sugar comes down to practically nothing. So I'd rather use the ingredients that are meant to be in a certain food items, then start trying to guess, well, if I put sugar free, I mean, it's going to work out the same because I'd rather just enjoy it the way it's meant to be, then try to mess around with it. That's the same with all these gluten free products and low in sugar products. You know, you're taking out one thing, but you're adding something else processed. And to me, you're far better off eating ingredients that you know, are ingredients that are more healthy than something that is a preservative or an additive or colorant.   Unknown Speaker  23:49 So tell us about your cookbook that you have out right   Chef Mark Allison  23:52 now. I brought out let's be smart about diabetes a few months ago and that actually started 2008 but that was the same year my wife was diagnosed with stage four cancer. So the book was shelved. And then when my wife passed away in 2015, I was approached by the American diabetic association to publish the book. And so they, they bought the rights to the book, but then they held on to it for two years. And then unfortunately, they laid off most of their editorial stuff, and said they were only going to publish well known authors, which I was not one of them. So they give me the full rights back. And so I just published that about six months ago. And it's all family recipes that we've used over the last 20 years with Matthew, all the recipes, believe makes a car very easy to use. You know, most of them take between 10 and 20 minutes, and the all healthiest there's nothing outrageous. I'm not asking anybody to buy superfoods. I don't believe in superfoods. I believe in it, eat an apple, that's probably the best food you can eat or a banana or if you had broccoli or cabbage. They don't have to be super foods. They're just packed Anyway with healthy vitamins and minerals and phytochemicals. So it's all based on practicality and what you can actually buy in your local store. And so this is packed full of soups and breakfast ideas, snacks, lunches, and meals for the kids and sort of healthy desserts.   Stacey Simms  25:17 I'd love to ask you and I, we didn't discuss this in advance, but would it be possible to grab a recipe or two from the book that you think might help people who are you know, stuck at home right now? Maybe dollar level or something that would keep and we could post that for the podcast audience?   Chef Mark Allison  25:32 Yeah, please do. Just choose whatever recipe you think is suitable. There's over 150 recipes in the book to choose from, and like I said, very easy to put together. And this could be the ideal time to grab a cookbook and try some of the recipes.   Stacey Simms  25:45 No doubt. All right. How do you stand on we've talked about you know, going to the produce section trying to buy fresh whenever possible. Where do you stand on canned and frozen ingredients?   Chef Mark Allison  25:55 Yeah, I'm a firm believer in fresh wood. If if you've got no option, then throw would be my next choice and then can't but if you're going to buy canned fruits or vegetables, make sure that they haven't got any added sugar.   Unknown Speaker  26:07 Yeah, you know what I saw in the supermarket recently forget added sugar. They were packed in Splenda, their sugar substitute in the quote for juice.   Chef Mark Allison  26:16 Yeah. Well, you know what people have got to make their own minds up on if they're going to use artificial sweeteners or not. I personally don't so you know, it's a choice you've got to make. But to tell the truth, if I've got the opportunity I always buy fresh because fresh normally isn't seasonal. So if you can buy seasonal fruits and vegetables, then they've got the best nutrient dense properties within them. They haven't been touched. Make sure that you wash your fruits and vegetables when you get them home and either eat them raw or add them to some kind of soup or lunch or dinner item. And to me that's the best way to keep yourself healthy. I'm a firm believer and my boys follow this practice as well. If you have half your plate, fruits and veggies But then you know, it's going to go too far wrong from being healthy and the idea with that's great advice.   Stacey Simms  27:05 Yeah, back to the the canned fruit though I gotta be honest with you and you don't have to you don't have to take a stand. But I was appalled to see canned fruit with Splenda added because the big packaging was like, you know, low in sugar, and I thought, Oh, good. Water or something. And I turned it over to look at the label. I was like Splenda, how much processing you have to go through to add that and I was like, uh, so I put that back. But in these, I know, people are worried right now, and many people may have purchased more canned and frozen goods than you ever really do. Looking at me. So we're all looking to try to do the best we can.   Chef Mark Allison  27:38 Yeah. And it's baby steps. It's baby steps. You know, you can kind of just turn your diet upside down because it's not gonna work. And I tell most people start with breakfast and just eat something healthier at breakfast and that's the ideal time to have a smoothie, you know, and you can Pocket full of vegetables, you know, cut back on the fruit so much, but ask or kale to smoothie out blueberries, but look at your your breakfast first and just change your breakfast for about a month, and then work on your lunch. And then finally work on your dinner. So, you know, if you just start slow, then your body becomes adjusted to it and you'll feel a lot more healthier.   Stacey Simms  28:17 What's your favorite movie?   Chef Mark Allison  28:18 Actually, when I used to be the director of culinary nutrition for the dog food company, I came up with a smoothie that obviously included bananas. It had almond milk, bananas and coffee. And that was a coffee fix up and the number of people that complimented that smoothie was unbelievable. But my favorite smoothies as always got blueberries and because blueberries are one of the best fruits you can eat for your memory as you get older and talk about with blueberries and spinach I use gave a banana and I use almond milk and a handful of almonds. And that saves me all the way through to lunch.   Stacey Simms  28:55 I liked spinach, mango and Domino.   Chef Mark Allison  28:58 That's Like mangoes my favorite fruit. Ah,   Stacey Simms  29:02 I'll tell you what, I use the frozen mango because it keeps it cold and gives it that exactly feel. But I was a big I was very reluctant to put anything green in a smoothie. I thought it was disgusting. I really did. I really did. And finally my husband convinced me and it's delicious. I'm shocked shocked. Yeah,   Chef Mark Allison  29:25 you can get your best and fishy and all that as spinach has got more protein than the average piece of meat weird for weird. So if you put four ounces of spinach in your smoothie, then that's got actually more protein than four ounces of beef. So probably I hit it right yeah. Spinach and spinach is one of the best foods in the world you can eat that as well as kale.   Stacey Simms  29:47 Yeah I'm still I'm not around to kale but maybe I'll try it all if I could. Finish I can try to   Chef Mark Allison  29:55 kill you can get away with in smoothie and solid j the like it are you doing   Stacey Simms  30:00 Exactly. All right, well, that's a great idea. Um, and then I know you said start with breakfast, move on to, and then ultimately do your dinners. But I have to ask for people who are listening who have younger kids, easy suggestions for dinners that the kids can help with? Is there anything that comes to mind that you did with your boys,   Chef Mark Allison  30:17 you know, you can always make your own chicken nuggets, that easy to make. In fact, there's a recipe in the book for that. But start with things that they actually like. And then just all the some of the ingredients to more healthy ingredients. Because most of the things you can buy in fast food outlets, or and most restaurants, you can replicate at home and make them a lot more healthier. It's just like anything. If you want to learn something, you'll take the time to learn. And to me, the good thing about coupon is it's a social event that actually gets people together. And it's a great way when my wife passed away five years ago, that was one of the things I insisted with my boys that every night we went in the kitchen now five years on We do exactly the same thing they were, they can't wait to get in the kitchen, see what we're going to eat that night. And usually they choose one of the evening meals during the week. And then we'll all muck in together all your sleeves up, we'll all cook together. And then again, I said, we actually sit down at the kitchen table and spend the next 30 to 90 minutes just having a conversation, which is fabulous. It's the highlight of my day.   Stacey Simms  31:22 I'll tell you what, it really is an amazing thing when you can get everybody away from their electronics sitting at the table. You know, we set we did that too. We set the table every night. Yeah. Even if we're bringing in, we do bring in occasionally, you know, it goes on the table, it comes out of the takeout.   Chef Mark Allison  31:39 What is social experience food is this food is one of the one things that will bring people together. And even if it doesn't turn out great. You can all have a laugh about it. And just try it again the next day. You know, nobody's gonna have a fight over a burnt pancake. You know, they you're just gonna laugh about it and say, You know what, I'm gonna cry better tomorrow.   Stacey Simms  31:58 You know, I'm glad to hear you say that because I I've been there many times. Before I let you go, you know, your life has been so interesting to be touched by type one diabetes in your family. And then of course, you've had that unbelievable experience with cancer and losing your wife and I'm so sorry, Mark, but now working with people who are honestly dependent on you to teach them better ways to manage health, whether it is diabetes, or trying to avoid complications from other illnesses. And I'm curious, you know, when you do meet with these people having, as you said, you started with, you know, French cuisine, fancy restaurants fancy chefs, now you're meeting with people who may not even understand how to fry an egg. You What was   Chef Mark Allison  32:39 that been like? Interesting.   Before, before I took this job, I was a culinary instructor for 20 years, so I could have dealt with a lot of people and different learning needs. And it all always comes back to the basics. If you can pick up the basics of anything that You'll be successful. So when you consider, I'm now working for the health department and I didn't realize these stocks until I actually started working for the health department. But 85% of all chronic diseases such as heart disease, type two diabetes, obviously not type one, and cancer are food related. And we live in an epidemic at the minute with the rise of type two diabetes, and the continuing rise of heart disease and cancer. And if people just realize that food is so important to prevent heart disease and cancer and type two diabetes, but also it's so important once you've got one of these diseases, to actually improve your immune system by eating healthy food, and the healthiest foods on the planet are fruits and vegetables, nuts, seeds, beans, seeds, and lean proteins and lean dairies. You've got to look at your food supply, try not to eat so much processed food because that's where all the additives are. That's where they put in the colorings the preservatives. You can't buy a loaf of bread that was moldy in a day. And now, you know that loaf of bread will stand there without gathering more for a week to two weeks. Now that isn't good. You know, actually, I just had fresh bread last night. I couldn't get any bread at the store yesterday. So I decided to get the flour out and I had some dry yeast. And making bread is so easy, it took less than five minutes. But just look at the food that you generally eat. And just try to you know, when you consider the rising costs of health insurance, every year, it goes up and up. And you will know because I know with Matthew's insulin and equipment for his pump, it just gets more and more expensive for free and, but if you're healthy, then look at that as being a lifesaver for you, as far as money is concerned, because if you can stay healthy and off prescription medication, you're gonna literally save thousands of dollars every year, and your life is gonna live longer, and you're going to enjoy life more. So A lot of it's all about prevention. But if you do have an illness, then really look at your diet, because the food, it's food is not medicine, but it can help in a way that will make you feel good about yourself and make you lose weight. And it'll keep you alive a lot longer if you pick the right food choices. And the right food choices are eat more fruits and vegetable.   Stacey Simms  35:22 Well, I really appreciate you spending some time with us. It's just always wonderful to talk with you. I'm glad your boys are doing well. Everybody's home now.   Chef Mark Allison  35:29 Everybody, so yeah, everybody. So James got led over school for the next two weeks, possibly more, who knows? Matthews at college, but he's at home at the minute and he's just doing everything online. And then unfortunately, my son who works in a restaurant, he just got laid off yesterday. But you know what, things could be a lot worse. We've just got to knuckle down and stay healthy and hopefully this virus hopefully will be gone in two or three weeks in the golf fleet. The nation can get back to normal. Yes, I hope so, too.   Stacey Simms  35:59 Mark, thank you so much for joining me, we will link up all the information about the book, we'll see how I can go about posting a recipe or two. And I'm just wishing you and your boys All the best. Thank you so much for talking with me.   Chef Mark Allison  36:10 Thank you for having me on the show and you and your family stay safe and stay healthy. And hopefully we'll catch you up with another diabetic conference.   Stacey Simms  36:19 Yeah, hopefully down the road and everything is rescheduled. I think the best thing is gonna be it's gonna be a very busy fall, I think.   Chef Mark Allison  36:25 I think   Unknown Speaker  36:32 you're listening to diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  36:38 Lots more information at the episode homepage. And of course, as I mentioned, we'll put some of the recipes and other information Mark was very generous and giving me an excerpt from the book. I will put that in the Facebook group, diabetes connections, the group, I don't care what he says I am not trying to kill smoothie. I've been there done that. But for somebody like me, having a green smoothie is a big step. I do eat a lot of vegetables. But I never thought I'd like smoothie. But like I said, the spinach smoothie was great. So he just like he said, one new thing, one new thing. Try it, see if you like it. You know, I've tried to teach my kids, although my husband is a really good cook, and he's done a much better job of teaching the kids actual cooking skills, but I try to teach them that mistakes are okay, which is coming out of my mouth. I just realized that just sounds like everything else I say with diabetes. But I mean, it's my philosophy of cooking too, because I make a ton of mistakes and everything somehow tastes good. I mean, sure, I've burned things. The first book I wrote was, I can't cook but I know someone who can. Actually Mark has a recipe. That book is a wonderful recipe. The conceit of that book is that I can't cook so I went and asked all of my restaurant and Chef friends for recipes. And it was a big book for charity for jdrf. And it was a lot of fun, but I did write a whole bunch of kitchen disaster stories into that book. Yeah, I think my life philosophy is make all the mistakes. Hey, it's working out so far. Up next, tell me something good. But first diabetes Connections is brought to you by dexcom. We have been Using the dexcom g six since it came out almost two years ago is that possible? It is just amazing. The dexcom g six is FDA permitted for no finger sticks for calibration and diabetes treatment decisions. You do that to our warm up and then the number just pops up if you like us have used x come for a long time before that. It's really wild to see the number just kind of self populate. You just have to do a lot more finger sticks for calibration. We've been using the dexcom for a long time. It was six years this past December and it just keeps getting better. The G six has longer sensor were 10 days and the new sensor applicator is so much easier to use. And of course the alerts and alarms we can set them how we want if your glucose alerts and readings from the G six do not match symptoms or expectations. Use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. To learn more, go to diabetes connections comm and click on that dexcom logo   and tell me something good this week. If you saw this post on social media you might have thought Stacy, you're telling me something good backgrounds are usually blue. Why was this one orange? Well, that's because my friends It featured mac and cheese. So let me tell you about Ty Gibbs. Ty is a swimmer at Henderson State University in Arkansas. He was diagnosed in 2017. It was actually very serious. He was being rushed to the hospital at the time. He was in intensive care. He spent time in the ICU, but his mom Cheryl says as he was rushed into the ICU, he was just starving. And he kept asking for mac and cheese over and over again every year since we celebrate with a ton of mac and cheese. So this tells me something good on social media the photo if you saw it was his teammates and friends celebrating his diversity with seven pounds of mac and cheese and a cake. You want to talk about a carb explosion? No, of course the celebration took place weeks ago. I believe this has And very early in March or maybe it was even in late February when they actually celebrated it before the social distancing was taking effect. But I really appreciate Cheryl sharing this story. I love the idea of celebrating with a mac and cheese. That would be something for my daughter more so than my son. When the kids are left to lane. They were asked to empty their dorm rooms of food. They weren't ordered to it was a food drive for people in New Orleans. And a lot of these kids like my daughter, most kids into lane are from far away. So a lot of them were jumping on planes or getting out of there and going long distances and didn't want to pack up everything in their dorm room. So the school organized a big food drive. And I tell you all this because my daughter donated her mac and cheese. I know she had other junk in her room that she didn't share with me but oh my gosh, she's definitely the mac and cheese lover in the family. So thanks, Ty and congratulations on your dire versary hopefully next year we can celebrate again we'll send you some mac and cheese to our other Tell me something good comes from Laura Bilodeau. A familiar name to many of you. She is the powerhouse, behind the friends for life conferences and so much more with children with diabetes. But recently, Laura found herself in the unusual situation of asking for help. She has connected thousands of people over the years. It's no exaggeration, the friends for life conference is 20 years old. And the children with diabetes organization is older than that. And I'm telling you, they have connected so many people to each other, for help for education for inspiration for friendships, including me, I've made so many friends there. But her son actually needed to help her adult son doesn't live with them, but with everything that was going on, came back home to Michigan a couple of weeks ago, and they were having trouble with diabetes supplies. They had been I'm not going to go through all the details. But like many of us, you know, they had insurance issues, somebody wasn't following through. The supply wasn't coming when it was supposed to come. And so they turn to the diabetes community for help. And as we always do, People reached out and so she posted a great picture about two weeks ago now almost that Mike Hoskins who's also been on the show is a great writer over a diabetes mine and his wife Susie. They met for coffee although they met you can see the picture. They're six feet apart each Zingerman's coffee roastery which was still open for takeout and this picture looks great. I bet that's a terrific coffee place. I'd love to check it out if I'm ever in town there but of course the big deal was that Michael was able to help her with the supplies that she needed. Is your community doing that we're having a lot of that here in the Charlotte area where people are just reaching out I already no surprise gave insulin to a friend of mine who's got an adult son who does not have insurance and is really struggling right now. So we were able to donate to them. I've got friends who had you know my Omni pod PDM knocked out and you know, they're going to get us a new one but does anybody have one in the meantime? Anybody spare sensor, little things like that goes such a long way. You know, I mean, they say little things. They They're really not when you come to rely on this stuff day to day could we go without except for the insulin? Of course, we would do finger pokes, we would use shots. But you know, you don't want to be without this technology once you have it. So way to go. Mike Hoskins way to go Laura Bilodeau, because it's tough to ask for help, especially when you've always been in the position of providing it. I'm so glad everybody got what they needed. All right, tell me something good. It's the best segment of the show each week. Tell me what you got. You can send it in Stacy at diabetes connections calm posted in the Facebook group. Or if I see it like I did, Laura, I'll just get your permission to share your story. But I really love when you send them in. So keep them coming and tell me something good.   Not too much to say here before I let you go. I do apologize for sort of the weirdness of the schedule. I always pride myself on every week the consistency of getting the show out there on Tuesdays and then those mini episodes I was doing on Thursdays foot, gosh, I feel I bet you feel the same. It's almost like time has been Meaning right now. Right? what day of the week? Is it? am I eating breakfast? Am I having cocktails? You know, it's just a crazy time right now. So I am giving myself the grace to put out episodes when they make sense. I am listening to podcasts right now when I am listening, that are entertaining and distract me. I'm listening to a lot of my Game of Thrones podcasts, a lot of my history podcasts, a lot of podcasts that make me laugh. So I'm not that concerned about getting my news up to date from podcasts. I hope an episode like this, you know, gave you 40 minutes or 50 minutes. I honestly don't know where that's going to come out to yet of distraction entertainment, something good to think about and a feeling that you're not alone. As we go forward in these weeks, I'm not sure just like everything else. I'm not sure what the podcast production schedule is gonna look like. Of course, I have my sponsors and I will do what is responsible and we'll get those episodes out. But I really liked connecting on zoom calls, Facebook Live, other things like that. So as with everything else after this is over We'll see what the podcast landscape looks like, right? I mean, who knows? I hope to keep doing this, but we shall see. We'll see where you all are. It's gonna be a long, long time before things go back to quote normal. And I don't know what that's going to look like. I do hope and expect that we will be in it together as we have been as the diabetes community always is. So please let me hear from you. Tell me what's on your mind. And I really appreciate you tuning in. As always, thank you to my editor john Pugh kennis of audio editing solutions. JOHN, I hope you're staying safe in Philadelphia and doing well and that your kids are alright as well. And thank you, as always for listening. Stay safe. I'll see you soon and more now than ever before. Be kind to yourself.   Unknown Speaker  45:50 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All rights reserved. All rounds avenged.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Ana Rivero: Hi, and welcome to community association matters. The podcast for condominium and homeowners associations. In South Florida. As you know, Ana Sanchez Rivero your host for the podcast. And I want to thank you for joining us today. As you know, we cover a lot of topics that affect condominiums and homeowners and most recently, the Covid 19 phenomena has occurred. And obviously it's a gray situation that's affecting everyone in the world and it's having its impact on associations. So many of our clients have a lot of questions as to what to do and and what does it mean when we're going through this pandemic. We found through hurricanes, and I think most of us pretty much have a hurricane plan in place. We know what to do, but this is very new to all of us, and I think we're just learning our way around. A feeling way around and how to deal with these situations. So I asked David Iglesias, yes. from Iglesia Las Group to join me today so that we can cover some of So David, welcome to the show. How are you today? David Iglesias: Good, how are you? Thank you, Anna. Same thing. I'm working from home. I'm glad to be here, but not under these circumstances with this pandemic and everything else is going on. Ana Rivero: Yeah, this is a truly is crazy, I think. I think all of us can say that none of us have lived through this and it's definitely an extraordinary time. David Iglesias: definitely is. It's, it is for community associations. I think it is for the law. I mean, it's changing every single day and we're trying to just work our way through it. Ana Rivero: So, thank you for being here and I really appreciate that. And I want to start a little bit about, first of all, tell us about you. You've practiced condo law. David Iglesias: I do practice condo law. I've been doing this almost 14 years. I represent over a hundred associations, whether a condo or HOA, and I think one co-op, but I'm, for the most part, it's condo and HOA work. And I used to work for a large law firms, so I'm familiar with. associations on the grand scale as well as on my own here for the last five years or so, doing this type of work. Ana Rivero: Right. And I know that we worked together on a handful of communities, so, definitely look forward to continued growth for both of us. David Iglesias: Yes. Ana Rivero: So let's talk a little bit about coven. obviously we know that it's a, a virus. we know that, it spreads through contact. And, you know, it's, the projections are not looking very well and it looks like we're going to be in this for quite some time. So we, you know, today is March 30th. this is probably going to continue, at least according to president Trump, a lockdown as far as businesses and non essential businesses working from home for at least another 30 days. Right. David Iglesias: That's correct. I mean, from everything I've seen, and you know, our audience who's watching this today, they saw from the president, even the governor this morning who stated that it looks like it's going to be all the way through May 15th as to this so-called stay at home order. I think he said this morning that it's going to be for Miami Dade, for Broward, for Palm beach County, and for Monroe County. So I mean, that's at least another 45 days from now. So yeah. It is, it is considered an emergency. I think that for the last couple of weeks, lawyers been kind of going back and forth as to whether this is an emergency as it relates to associations. but, but yes, it's an emergency. It is an emergency. Ana Rivero: What does that mean exactly for associations? Do they, do they have additional powers? David Iglesias: actually, yes, associations have additional powers. and I guess when we say additional powers. I mean, it really means that some of these things like holding a board meeting, they can hold it, you know, within a shorter period of time than the 48 hours that's normally required. these emergency powers. again, there was a question Mark about them for the last two weeks because the emergency powers you'll find in the condo statute. And the HOA statute really related to hurricanes and things like that. This is really, I don't think it was written specifically for pandemics, like lists, but, it's one of those things that, you know, it now applies. And actually on Friday, the DBPR, the division of business and professional regulations issued an order specifically. I'm relating it to the Corona virus, these emergency powers and to this pandemic. Ana Rivero: And what are those powers say exactly? What did they say in that order that they issued? David Iglesias: So the issue as it relates to the order, basically the, the statute for both the condos and hos had a requirement, related to damage after a disaster. So what the order did was it said, that section doesn't really have to apply now. and, and it further gave it authority as it relates to human health services and their role in all this. So these emergency powers will give the associations the right to again, hold a board meeting maybe first. I'm in a shorter period of time, the 48 hours, let's say they want to close the pool or having too many people there and they just want to close it. Now they can post a notice and, and hold a quick board meeting in order to close the pool in an effort to, you know, keep the, as you stated, you know, the social distancing and other things like that. Ana Rivero: So now that you bring that up, there was a, I think city of Miami mayor. Also, either he issued a decree or sent out an email or an order, two condominium associations. Obviously I directed at the Brickell, but communities that are along the Brickle side of Miami and basically stated that they should shut down their common areas. Now, we had asked our associations. To shut down about two weeks ago when I think the County, I shouldn't order. Since we represent a lot of communities throughout Miami Dade County, some in Broward, different municipalities came in at different times, but as soon as Miami Dade issued one for the County. We told our clients, you should shut down your gyms. You should shut down. the ballrooms or the meeting rooms. That's hold meetings during conferences. But we did have a few clients that gave us a bit of a pushback. They didn't want to close the pool down, for example, because they felt that, you know, kids are on a school and it spring break just passed for us here in Miami day. And what impacts. Was that going to have in the community? For us it was a safety matter. So what do you tell those condominium associations? What? What is their rights under these orders to act well, David Iglesias: the associations. Generally you want to be in these kinds of situations. You want to be as conservative as possible. So if the city of Miami is issuing it to the Brickell, you know, condominiums and Miami Dade County has these orders out, I think you want to follow those. Even the communities that don't want to, they say, no, you know it's is, you know, we'll be careful. We'll have less than 10 people there. You still want to. I would say close the pools because there's always a question about liability. I'm sure in the next couple of months, unfortunately there may be, you know, people who pass away from this and some of our communities, and if they can somehow link that to the pool or claim that somehow the association was involved, there's a potential for exposure liability, whether it's true or not, whether that even applies. I think it's best for the community itself to go ahead and and close the pools. I mean for liability reasons, for safety reasons to avoid as many issues as possible. You're just, you're asking for trouble. I think if you leave these pool areas, open these gymnasiums open at this time. Now, if the association feels. Now this is the best thing for the association. Leave it open then, you know, that may be their choice. There's something called the business judgment rule that allows the associations to make these decisions in the best interests of their community. But from everything I ski right now, I think it's best to close the polls. Ana Rivero: Speaking of liability, how, how much exposure do associations have or individuals even can an individual then has Covid be held? Responsible is they don't, well, 19 for example. That's another question that board members are asking us. David Iglesias: Yeah, that's, that's, that's something I think to some extent that is a new idea in the sense that, you know what, if like you said, somebody has Covid 19 they decided not to quarantine and they would, if they maliciously or purposely try to touch somebody else or you know, get close to somebody else and that person gets infected. Is there a liability there? There may be liability and for the associations for that very reason, you want to make sure you close down these pool areas and that sort of thing. Now as to quarantining or somebody self quarantining, that's something that, the association doesn't really have the power to keep somebody in their house or their condominium. That doesn't mean that the association shouldn't, you know, call the authorities if somebody's violating, you know, a quarantine order. Maybe they should. You know, call the CDC or call their local authorities as it relates to that. But the association itself doesn't necessarily have the power to, you know, keep somebody in their house. Ana Rivero: Makes sense. Now, what if I have a resident that is sick in one of our communities and we just found out about it this morning, and what we did was we drew up a notice where we're advising the residents that someone is sick in the community that. To stay calm and we've, we had been already ramping up with our janitorial staff and the different janitorial companies that we work with, our cleaning of the common areas, obviously elevators and you know, stairwells, but the hand rails and so forth. But obviously he can't prevent it. we can't use a, magical radar that tells us where we missed the spawn and where the Corona virus is. And so it's very challenging to say that this has been sanitized and there is no danger. So for this particular unit, what we did was we told the community there is somebody that is sick, so please take the additional precautions to protect yourself or doing what we can. But you have to do it as well if we do the right thing. David Iglesias: I think so. I think it's the best thing you can do. My understanding all as it relates to this. I think, if an individual tells you that they're sick and they want the community to know, you can put out their name. Otherwise, maybe you shouldn't put out their name for communities out there. if you know someone's sick, you can just say, Hey, we know somebody is sick in the community. Like you said, Anna, please make sure that you know, you take care of yourselves and do what you're supposed to do. I mean, there's all kinds of HIPAA privacy laws as relates to illnesses and medical conditions. So the association should be careful and they should contact their attorneys in regards to that. But it sounds like you guys did the right thing and, and just notifying the community general that somebody is sick, and taking the necessary precautions on your end. Ana Rivero: Now, as far as I'm sticking with that question, at that point of liability, is this something that they could claim on their insurance if they, not just the liability aspect, but let's say that they have a loss. maintenance fees may not be coming in because of the financial impact that this is having on people under likelihood. David Iglesias: There's, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of exceptions. There's a lot of, and these insurance policies and there, you know, there's exceptions for war for other things. This may be one of the things that there's an exception for, but that doesn't mean the association shouldn't attempt to, if, if, if it comes down to it and, and they feel that they need a fall insurance claim, that may be the way to go. But generally, as it relates to assessments. I think the associations, I mean, if we're going to go down that road a little bit, if you don't mind, and I think the association should be, you know, careful and making sure they collect their assessments, being compassionate maybe as to late fees and other things, but they need to continue to collect the assessments. That's critical. That's the lifeblood of the association. Ana Rivero: Yeah, absolutely. We've already received emails from homeowners wanting to know if we're going to waive them. And you know, we have to explain that unfortunately, and I think for the most part, most of the services that provide service to associations are considered essential businesses. And so, I think the County has provided provisions for those candidates, for those companies to continue providing services like the plumbers. The electricians, repair men, poor men and so forth, even us are considered essential. So what we've expected to them is, unfortunately, we can't waive it because we're still paying for those services. What we've, advised our clients is to, maybe this isn't a good time to take on new projects, so maybe we want to slow down any, you know, or not enter into any new projects for right now. And. If people have payment plan, if they need to, or maybe defer a maintenance fee if they're financially able to do so. It's, it's a tough scenario and it's hard to, you know, give a response to homeowners that earn such tough times. What, what is your law firm doing to help maybe those that you have in collections for your communities? David Iglesias: I mean the, the same, same sorts of things. I think, we're working with the associations to waive the late fees potentially if the client or not, if the homeowner asks for that or interest, things like that. we're trying to give out payment plans maybe a little bit longer than we normally would for the pain plans. I think it's important that the associations communicate with their communities and just basically tell them that, you know, unfortunately as you stated on, you know, there's, there's bills to be paid on our end as well. And important is where the security or just general maintenance to the association and management company. All those things are critical to the functioning of the association. So the association should continue to collect this assessments. And you know, I think communication is key in collections in general, whether it's the pandemic or otherwise, it's one the homeowners ignore us. It's when the homeowners don't call the management company that they get into trouble. So the best thing is if you are in trouble as a homeowner in those kinds of situations, I would think is to go ahead and contact the management company and tell them what's going on. And gives the management company, you know, they can put a note on the file and then, you know, whatever, if they're going to waive late fees or if they're just going to put them on a pamphlet and they'll know to do that. It's when they don't communicate that we have the biggest problems. Ana Rivero: I, and I agree with you in that regard, it is definitely a difficult situation that we all find ourselves in and we have to be compassionate, but the association does have to pay for those services and it's hard. So let me jump, So another topic altogether, which is another, a lot of the common questions that we get. as far as, what should associations do to protect their personnel? Do we, do we have to, buy protective gear for them? do we have to, just is there anything else that we need to do for our employees and do we need to continue paying them.  during this time if they become sick. I know that there's, some language or some legislation that was passed recently, providing employees with protection. and, I'm not sure whether that applies to condos and HOAs. David Iglesias: Right. I think that's really something specific that you have to take on a case by case basis. Because some communities may have one employee, some may have none, some may have 10 15 I, I, you know, it all depends. But that is something that is evolving right now, I think as to how to handle that with employees. But in the end, if the association cannot afford to keep those people on staff, they may have to lay them off. And they may have to seek an employment and then come back when they're ready to hire them again as to protective gear. you know, again, I don't think there's a specific requirement, but if somebody is going to be, I'm thinking, you know, maybe security guard or somebody is going to be in contact and grabbing driver's licenses. Maybe you don't give the driver's license. You can just. You know, tell what unit you are. You make modifications as to getting too close to somebody to avoid having that physical contact or maybe give them gloves, but, but in general, there's no requirement that they have protective gear. Ana Rivero: And we talked a little bit about, you know, making those modifications for homeowners that are, you know, into some financial. A problem because of this. How about the easing up of rules? How do you feel about that? What would be your recommendation? As, as an example, we had somebody, a board that, they have a rule that nothing can be in the hallways, no rugs, no personal items. And it's understandable that they cause tripping hazards. They can be a problem. but we had a resident that left. For shoes in the hallway because there is, some, conversation out there in the media that you should leave your shoes outside because it can carry the virus into the property. So where do we set the line of sending that person a violation letter or talking to them and asking them to bring in their shoes versus what they perceive to be a real threat against their health? At what point do we have to stop or do we not stop? Do we continue to enforce the rules as abnormal. David Iglesias: Right? I mean, I, I think we do not stop. I think, you know, black and white. If the law says, you know, I mean, there's always a gray area with everything, but if the rules say you cannot leave anything outside, I don't think an exception should be made at this time under these circumstances. There's nothing, I don't think proven that that's carrying in Corona virus or anything like that. But. Nonetheless, it's just as much a tripping hazard as you stated, as somebody could get infected. So it's almost like two wrongs don't make a right. If you put us, you know, leave those shoes out there and somebody gets hurt, then there's maybe as much liability for the association as if they bring their shoes in. So maybe again, communication to the association, letting them know, you know, that this is a serious thing and maybe have some kind of a pad, you know, on the floor, inside the house. And. Cleaning off the shoes with alcohol or Lysol or some other in some other manner, but I don't think leaving the shoes out is going to help. It's just going to create another liability. Ana Rivero: And as far as parking rules and the interaction between, for example, security guards and residents, I mean, for example, us in our office. we close to the public. so people can only come to see us through an appointment. we're also working remotely from home because we're completely cloud based and we're able to do that. So if somebody needs to come to our office, then we do have them make an appointment and come and see us. But. What about the guards that are out there in the community and the janitorial staff that are cleaning for the guards that interact on a one-on-one, and the enforcement of the rules in general, should we, maybe stop enforcing some parking, you know, guidelines, for example, the request for visitor parking or temporary parking, if they have one in, they need the. the, the guard to hand out a pass that we stop or continue with that and maybe add in some provisions, like having them wear gloves and so forth. David Iglesias: Right. I mean, I think that is, that may be a different circumstance where you're saying as to how the security protocol is as it relates to somebody coming into the property as to the guest passes, visitor passes, you know, if it can be passed along, you know, with a piece of paper that's put on the dashboard. I guess we're not 100% sure about that. it, you know, it's, you're going to have to, I think associations are going to have to waste some of those things, but it may create, you know, it's not like leaving a shoe outside where somebody can trip over. We've already logged this car in as being in the community, so maybe it doesn't need to have that piece of paper on the dashboard, or maybe you don't have to have the security guard, you know, take the driver's license. But, otherwise, yeah, they, I mean, implement whatever I think the association can in order to protect. It's membership and not crossing the line that that's the hard part. Ana Rivero: Right. And again, jumping around because there's a lot of questions that pop into my head cause it's such a, you know, it's so different. This is such a unique situation. We just never gone through that. so now let's skip a little bit more on the formalities that, that we encounter and going back to those emergency rules that you establish, or that you said have been into place. even association has an annual meeting. Should they cancel or postpone the annual meeting or, can we proceed and try to do it via teleconference? what do you think? David Iglesias: I think we have to take it on a case by case basis. But you're right, this is something. I dunno, it has not been seen in what, a hundred years, maybe since the Spanish flu they said in 1917 1918. So really nobody or most that are not alive today I've ever seen or gone through anything like this. as it relates to annual meetings, a lot of my clients are postponing their new meetings. it's just, if it's not necessary, I mean, I think you should. Look at each one. Okay. Is it not necessary? Did not enough? Let's say it's a condo. Did 900 people put their names in? So actually have an election then for sure. You know, I would think a situation where you just postpone it cause it's really not going to change anything right now. if there's a way to do it by teleconference in the sense that maybe it's a small community, 20 units or something, and the association. Can have one person downstairs and everybody on zoom. That may be a way to do it. The board members, as you know, and I don't have to be there in person, they can be on the phone or by video conference. That doesn't apply to the members necessarily. But if the members have the right to speak and, and to participate by video conference, that may be an option. So the association should consider that. Ana Rivero:Yeah, we have an annual meeting tomorrow. There weren't, unfortunately, it's not an election. Not enough candidates signed up. So we decided to postpone the annual meeting, but we're going to proceed with the organizational meeting via teleconference. And so we put the access number and access code on the agenda that was posted. So that way anybody who wishes to participate, is able to do so from their telephone number. I think it's just, you know, a sign of the times. Right. I think that that about covers it. Is there anything else that you wish to add that maybe we haven't discussed or covered to this topic. David Iglesias: I think one of the things that came up for me is for some of my clients last week was in regards to, you know, this issue with people coming in from New York and New Jersey and Connecticut and all these areas where the governor had issued this 14 day self quarantine. I think it relates to your earlier question. The associations may want to post something out there so everybody's aware of it. But, unfortunately, associations can't really control what somebody does. They may just want to, you know, reach out to the CDC or their local authorities if somebody is not abiding by that. But that's something that came up last week. And I think just monitor the news and see what's going on on a daily basis. We all have to, for our families, for our communities. And just be mindful of what's going on around you. Ana Rivero: You just raised a very important point that I did forget to ask, so I'm glad you made that comment. With regards to visitors, I've had re, for example, we got a call from a friend who knows that we do property management and they know of somebody who lives in, I think it was Boca. At any rate, the, the lady was going to help her elderly parents. and so they went through the visitor lane of the security guard area of the condo. And the guard told them that they were sorry, but they couldn't go in to the community because she was a guest. She was a visitor. and I was dumbfounded because up to now, I have not heard of any restrictions with. Visitors at all. I mean, and I thought, Oh my gosh, my mom is elderly. I go and I literally, for the first time in my life, go see my mom and I'll give her a kiss when I say hello, like, you know, I almost did the fist pump, you know, not that type of person, but I had to leave. No, I bought supplies for her and I left it on her door. I was like literally knocked and walked and walked out and you know, just called her and said, I just want to make sure you got what I left you. And you know, she was so thankful. So, you know, we're all, I think that getting to this, but if I couldn't go visit her, how would she even. You know, stay alive because she doesn't drive. So the one who does groceries for her is me. So I just thought of myself in that situation. And so can we prevent visitors from coming into associations. David Iglesias: I think the answer that is easy. Yes and no. I mean, if we're talking about delivery person coming up to your door, maybe there's a way, especially for condo high rise, where they can leave it downstairs as it relates to someone like you who would be essential to your mother's survival and just, you know, being, you know, doing whatever she needs to do. No, there's no way they can keep you from coming in and either can they keep other visitors that are there to help family members and things like that. Now when it comes again, maybe a personal trainer that's coming in, maybe that's not essential, or somebody that needs to remodel their kitchen or bathroom. Maybe this is not the time and you can put some restrictions on that sort of thing, but can you restrict the refrigerator? Your refrigerator goes bad and need to have somebody come repair it. No, you can't restrict that. I think there's a line, and that's important. I'm glad you brought that up to the, I think it's important that the associations have some kind of. Plan in place where they can talk to security, they can talk to the people at the gate or the door. So they understand. Cause maybe if you are going to have a personal trainer come, maybe they do wear a mask or something like that until they get to the person's, you know, room or, or unit. the same thing. I mean there's certain exceptions. Process servers have the right to come, but then you can also try limit them as well. You know, with gloves and other things, but it generally, no, I know you cannot keep the essentials from entering, even if they're considered guests. Ana Rivero: I, I thank you for your time. I think we've covered a lot of topics. I hope this helps. a lot of the board and members and even residents, that get to see this through our Facebook page or through our website. we're just trying to get out as much information as we possibly can to our clients. And I appreciate your time and doing this. I'll definitely be putting a link with your contact info and we create a blog about this. And so, we'll definitely put it on there. So then if anybody needs to reach you, they can. Do you want to give a quick mention of what your website is in your phone number in case anybody wants to call you right away? David Iglesias: Thank you again, Anna, for having me here.  for this, webinar, my website is https://dilegalgroup.com/. So it's D as in David, Isen, India legal group.com. And my phone number is 9543625222 nine five four three six two five two, two two. Thank you, Anna. Ana Rivero: And of course, allied property group has been serving communities since 2003 in South Florida. We're now also, open in the Fort Myers, Naples, and Southwest Florida area. please give us a call at 305.232.1579 . If your management company is not giving you this basic information. we're here to help you and we're here to help you get through this process. which is so challenging for all of us. So thanks for tuning in and hopefully the next time we do one of these, this is all over and it was just a bad nightmare. Have a good day. Everybody.  

Atrium Health doctor Mark Vanderwel answers questions on the minds of many parents these days. We will be adding a transcription later today. Quick turn around on this episode! If you saw the original Facebook live, skip ahead 17 minutes - it dropped out after some audio issues but Stacey & Mark picked it back up again, off of FB. You can watch the full interview here Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by one drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by real good foods real food you feel good about eating by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom.   Announcer  0:19 This is diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  0:24 Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the show. So glad to have you here. I hope these episodes are helping. Today we are talking with a pediatric endocrinologist starting off by talking about Covid 19, of course, and things that people with diabetes specifically type one needs to keep in mind but then going down the line of listener questions things that my local Facebook group chimed in with things that the diabetes connections group chimed in with. Because if you're not seeing your endocrinologist for longer than expected, which is the case for a lot of us kids and adults, what should you You'll be doing and that's a lot of what we talked about what to do in between how to make sure that you are taking care of what you need to take care of some things you might not have thought about. And just a great chat with Dr. Mark Vanderwel, this was originally done as a Facebook Live Alright, that's only half the truth. This was originally done as a stream yard which is a an audio and video hosting system hosted Facebook Live, which crapped out halfway through and then mark and I jumped onto zoom and record it that way. So the whole video I kind of stitched it together. The whole video is up on YouTube, on diabetes connections there. It is also on our Facebook page. And here is the audio. That's what we're running is the audio of the initial Facebook Live and then everything that you didn't hear. So if you watch the Facebook Live already, the new stuff is about 17 minutes in from the beginning of the interview. If you want to skip ahead, I'm not coming back at the end of the interview. I do want to say, though, that I appreciate all of the messages I'm getting about, you know, putting out episodes. Look, we're all looking for things to do at our homes. We're all looking for good, reliable information. I am hoping to do more episodes like this more zoom Facebook stuff. So let me know what you'd like to hear. I've also been collecting audio from you from people in the audience. And I'm going to be releasing that episode and kind of figuring out how to use that great audio people just keep me posted on what's happening in their homes and what's on their minds. So I'm not really sticking to a schedule. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry, if you were expecting every episode on Tuesday, and sometimes on Thursdays like we normally do, but I don't know about you. I've already lost all track of days of the week. So we're just gonna put out episodes when they're ready to go. And if you want to still listen on Tuesdays, that's awesome. If you want to let me know that that is or isn't working for you. That's great, too. I just think we all need to be here for each other in these wild times. Thank you so much. All right, so here is my talk with atrium health Dr. Mark Vanderwel, welcome to everybody who is watching. I'm so glad to have you with me for this little bit of an unusual circumstances bear with us. This is the first time I've done something like this. I am Stacey Simms, the host of diabetes connections and with me is Dr. Mark Vanderwel, a pediatric endocrinologist here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area with atrium Health. Dr. Vanderwel. Thanks for joining me,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  3:26 Stacey. It's an honor as always,   Stacey Simms  3:29 well, we should say before we get going, we do have some disclaimers. But the very first thing in full disclosure that people need to know is that this is my son's endocrinologist and I've known Dr. V, as I've called him many times on the show and in my book for more than 13 years now. So we've never done an interview.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  3:48 Yeah. At least recorded interview for for diabetes connections. We did some back in your radio days. Oh, that's right.   Stacey Simms  3:56 Yeah, I thought you were implying that I like interviewed you when I All right.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  4:02 So it has been a long time since we've communicated it never on this platform.   Stacey Simms  4:05 Well, I really appreciate you jumping in because as you know, people have a lot of questions nervous times right now. So the The first thing we need to do is is do some disclaimers, obviously, while Dr. Vanderwel is our pediatric endocrinologist, he is not yours. So please, any comments questions that you may have addressed them to your own physician as well? Nothing I will put words in your mouth here, nothing that Dr. Vanderwel says today should be taken as your own personal medical advice. We're here to get general answers to general questions. And that's really about it. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, I think. But as you listen and watch at home, just you know, let's use some common sense here.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  4:43 Yes, I'm not speaking for the pediatric endocrinology community in general. I'm speaking for myself and different physicians have different perspectives on how they take care of kids with diabetes. Different physicians will have different perspectives on Covid 19. And what I am saying is my perspective And it will not even apply universally to all of the patients I take care of because we know you are all different. Similarly, I am not a pediatric infectious disease specialist. I'm not I am not an epidemiologist, and I'm not a fortune teller. And I think we're all worried and we do not know what's going to happen in the future. And a lot of what we're talking about is just predictive, then we don't know.   Stacey Simms  5:21 All right, so good things to keep in mind. Also, this is first being broadcast live on Facebook. If for some reason as you're watching it, just bonks out or something crazy happens. We're recording the audio, this will be rebroadcast as a podcast, it may be broadcast in video in some other forms. If you have questions or comments. We're using technology called stream yard, and I can see your comments on Facebook, but we're not actually on Facebook. So there's a big delay, most likely, so bear with us. And I do have a lot of questions that I took in advance. So if we don't get to your question today, I promise it may not be with Dr. Vanderwel schedules permitting, but we are going to be addressing Senior questions going forward. And you know, we're just here to see what we can do. So we want to just jump right in. Sure. Let's go. All right. So my first question is really just about what you're hearing these days because I'm talking to you at home, you're not in the office offices is closed, but are you still getting close? Okay, so what are people asking?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  6:16 Yeah, so, you know, I think the the primary things are, will we still have appointments? And the answer is we will eventually have virtual appointments. Although a lot of people will also need to be rescheduled, we don't only take care of kids with diabetes, and there are some conditions that we do need to see face to face. In general though, I think most of our kids with Type One Diabetes will be able to seen by a virtual visit, and we'll talk a little bit about that in just a minute. We do still have nurses answering phone calls in our office, I'm not sure what other offices are doing. So we have nurses answering phone calls. We have a physician that's on call 24 seven for hospital based medicine. And so we will we are creating a schedule. That's why our office is closed. We're working on developing virtual visits. And we've never done this before the platform that atrium uses was originally designed for perhaps five, six pediatricians to use to handle only general pediatric calls. And now this platform is being spread out to be used by pediatric specialists, as well as general pediatricians. And I think more than 100 physicians and, uh, and other providers are going to be on this platform. So we're still learning how to do it. And that's why we canceled appointments for a few weeks, but we will have virtual visits up and running hopefully, by next week, Tuesday,   Stacey Simms  7:34 because we're going to be in that soup, right? Yeah.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  7:38 Your name on my schedule when I was telling everyone that exactly.   Stacey Simms  7:43 Alright, well, I won't call your office and ask what you're doing with me. I will let them reach out to us. When you're talking about virtual and again, this is kind of specific to your office. I don't even know yet. Do we on the other side have to do anything yet or you'll read? Yeah, we'll watch. No,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  7:58 we we Will for our type one diabetes patients will likely have a medical assistant call you first maybe on the day of the appointment maybe beforehand to review any changes in medications, any new allergies, the types of things they usually ask you while they were checking you back in. And then in preparation for the phone call with a physician, we are going to ask you to gather diabetes data for us whether it's a pump, download a CGM, download a meter download, and that'll be the main thing that we as physicians will review. So we'll tell you more. We'll try to talk through a little bit more about how to do that. Although hopefully you all know how to do that. The physician will also will hopefully again, this is all new. We'll have all that information online.   Stacey Simms  8:42 If you're watching, you kind of saw me roll my eyes there. Dr. Vanderwel knows this but it's a little embarrassing to admit, I never upload anything in advance. I tell them please don't be mad at me. I think the only time I ever logged into T Connect is to upgrade the pump. So   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  8:57 well you know, I think the thing is, we We'll be able to get that data without, without advanced uploading, I don't want to come that 100%. But I think if your data is there, we should be able to access it. But we're gonna learn that over the next three to five days.   Stacey Simms  9:12 That's what we're all be learning it, I am sure. Um, in terms of questions that people have in between these appointments, you know, one that came to mind this morning was, you know, if I, if I need refills, if I'm worried about supplies, are you here? I know most people just call their physician pharmacies are open, but are you hearing anything about issues, shortages, that sort of thing with supplies   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  9:35 whatsoever, and I hope we don't, um, you know, Covid 19 is going to affect people in every sector. And I hope we don't get to a stage where there's problems with pharmaceutical production at this point, there is no anticipated problem with production of insulin production of test strips production with any other diabetes related spies. And so No, I do not foresee that as a problem. I know there's the temptation to stockpile And that's one of the things that we've seen in the general public, obviously, with toilet paper, hand sanitizer, etc. And there's that desire Should I stockpile my insulin? Well, we can't commit insurance fraud. And so as physicians, I cannot write a prescription to your pharmacy saying suddenly that a child who used to use 20 units of insulin a day is all of a sudden requiring 200 units of insulin per day, so that your insurance will cover additional insulin, I can't do that. That's illegal. And so we will be honest with the pharmacies. I'm not sure how you can get extra insulin just in case that might be something better to work with your pharmacy in terms of what they will cover or what they will allow your insurance to cover. But I do not foresee a deficiency in any diabetes related supplies.   Stacey Simms  10:45 Let's jump in and talk about Covid 19 best that we can. One of the questions that seems to be coming up over and over again is you know, we've all seen in the early days of this at least, the charts that came in from China and Italy saying they're the comorbidities and diabetes Sure, can you do you know what that means? Because one of the questions was, is it all type two is it you know, work?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  11:06 Right so earlier this morning I saw some data recently published in the New England Journal of Medicine related to the children 10 and under. And the only fatality in the Chinese data that was published was a 10 month old, who had had intussusception, which is basically when your intestines telescope on each other. And so the child was already previously ill because of that, and there were no other fatalities in that population under age 10. I do not have the data for other age groups stratified out but that was what I saw on the New England Journal of Medicine earlier today. When the word diabetes is used, obviously, that is a big word and often refers to both type one and type two diabetes. And so as far as I can tell from all the Chinese data, when it says diabetes is referring to the big group of both and everyone's worried at greater risk, because I have type one diabetes, or let's face it type two diabetes? And the answer is, we do not think that people with type one or type two diabetes are at any greater risk of contracting Covid 19 than the general population. So there's no increased risk of picking up this virus as far as we know. Now data changes every day. That's the caveat here. We are still learning but at this point, there's no reason to think that people with diabetes type one or two are more likely to get Covid 19. Just like any virus, whether it's the flu, whether it's the cold, being sick, when you have diabetes makes taking care of diabetes more difficult, and we see that frequently during flu season, that when people are feeling sick, and they may not be eating or drinking quite as well, they have the predisposition to go into diabetic ketoacidosis. And so my answer to how do people with type one diabetes are people who have children who have type one diabetes, better take care of their children, either if They have been exposed to the virus or if they are already showing symptoms of a viral infection. And the answer is us you're sick. And by Sick Day protocol, I mean check for ketones. Even if your child's blood sugar is 124, you can still get ketones if they are not eating or drinking very well. So remember, ketones are what happened, or what happens when your muscles become desperate for energy. And usually with people with diabetes that happens when you don't have enough insulin in your system to help your body take the sugar out of the bloodstream and get it into the muscle cell to be used for energy. But sometimes ketones can happen if you're just not eating or drinking very well. And so ketones can happen even with a blood sugar 124 if your child has been sick, or if she is vomiting or if he is not eating very well because he feels sick. ketones also can be happening more often in the presence of fever. So although as far as we know right now, nausea and vomiting are not necessarily symptoms of Covid 19 like they are the flu. For example, fever is When you develop fever, that can also cause greater metabolic need, your muscles become more desperate for energy that can lead to the production of ketones and cause an increased risk of diabetic ketoacidosis. So my summary is related to kovat, 19 and diabetes, your child is not at greater risk, their immune system should still work just fine to fight off the virus However, they are at greater risk for developing diabetic ketoacidosis in the context of a viral illness.   Stacey Simms  14:29 A couple of follow up questions on that with keep checking for ketones. Do you recommend a keto blood meter? Are you comfortable with sticks and easily?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  14:40 Yeah, I mean, most people check urine for ketones a blood ketone meter can give you more up to date information, for example, that tells you what's in your blood sugar level. That's what's in your blood right now. Whereas your urine is often saying, well, we made this urine an hour ago and it's been sitting in the bladder for an hour so it's not as up to date as before. glucometer as a blood ketone meter is, but still I think you can get the information you need from, from urine, ketosis, I don't feel you have to rush out and get a blood ketone checker just because of our current situation. I mean,   Stacey Simms  15:13 I'll be honest with you, and I don't know if this is true confessions time, we've never we've never purchased a blood ketones. This was the time I thought maybe, you know, the back of my head was like, should I get on Amazon? And then I got on Amazon, and there were so many and I thought, oh my god, I'm gonna buy a terrible one. So, um, stick with what we know maybe for me?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  15:31 Yeah, I mean, there are many other things to worry about. And if you felt comfortable checking your child's urine for ketones, there's no need to suddenly change to use a blood glucose blood ketone meter.   Stacey Simms  15:42 Well, he's 15. So maybe,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  15:43   Stacey Simms  15:46 I'm sorry, this if you're just joining us, we did have a bunch of disclaimers that this is not medical advice you should be taking personally, but this is my son's pediatric endocrinologist. So I might sneak in some personal questions. We'll see. But the follow up question. fever. And then I'm going to ask you that question about repro fantasy. Before I even get to that one, do you recommend? I've heard that sometimes it's better to let the fever go, you know, not to 104 but to 101, things like that.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  16:17 That is a great question Stacy and I am no longer a general I should say this. I am board certified in general pediatrics, but I have not practiced general pediatrics for 15 years. However, that all being said, fevers makes you uncomfortable. When your temperature is high, you don't feel good, but many people are excessively afraid of fever as something that can hurt you, either in the short term or the long term and in general fever just makes you uncomfortable. So when we're sick, and we have a fever, we often for other illnesses have taken an antibiotic whether it's acetaminophen, whether it's ibuprofen, and what some, some French suggested Scientists have suggested is that ibuprofen and other anti inflammatories may blunt your immune response as of right now that information what's the exact word I had it pulled up is still up for debate. It is not necessarily something that is. That is a stocking answer that we say you must not use ibuprofen in the case of a fever related to Covid 19 unproven was the word I was looking for unproven so let's let's get the elephant out of the bag. What is killing people with Covid 19 is not fever. What is killing people with Covid 19 is respiratory distress is the inability to get breath in and children with diabetes are at no greater risk for developing that than children who don't have diabetes when it comes terms in terms of managing fever. Yes, ibuprofen is a anti inflammatory, ibuprofen at this point. We don't know if it's safe or not. My recommendation, though, is is to say, you know, we want to make sure you're drinking. We want to make sure you can keep fluids down. And if you are so uncomfortable that you can't drink or keep fluids down because of the high fever, then yes, we probably should treat the fever and at first maybe you treat with IV or with acetaminophen. But if all you have is ibuprofen, and you're you're miserable, at this point, it's still unproven that ibuprofen will make Covid 19 worse or prevent you to impair your ability to fight it off.   Stacey Simms  18:27 Well, and will continue to follow that obviously,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  18:29 just new information.   Stacey Simms  18:31 It's unproven, but I mean, I can't lie. I still you know, I take ibuprofen here and there I immediately was like, No, because it's it's scary.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  18:39 Sure. Yeah.   Stacey Simms  18:41 I went and checked everything in the house. How much acetaminophen do we have? What What else? Oh, because acetaminophen isn't so many cold medicines, sir. Let me ask you that people with type one and type two people with diabetes. Let's just say that who use CGM know that with Tylenol acetaminophen come warnings with death. calm. Now my understanding is Dexcom je six you can take 1000 milligrams of Tylenol safely by safely means it's not going to burn out your sensor you can is nothing to do with them anything beyond the sensor we're talking about here is that what you were understanding?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:15 My understanding and just for clarification even in previous versions of Dexcom if you're using g five if you're using g four acetaminophen does not prevent it from working. It just may mean the readings it gives you are not as accurate as they might be without acetaminophen in your system. But that's also my understanding for the for the Dexcom g six,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:35 just think or stick. Agreed?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:37 Yeah, if you feel your ducks comm isn't accurate whether you have acetaminophen on board or whether you don't have acetaminophen on board, poke your finger.   Stacey Simms  19:46 Right? Which means that a lot of people need to make sure that not only do we have a meter and test strips, but that we have the batteries or that our stuff is plugged in because um I know A lot of us are very reliant on CGM. Let's just put it that way. And I'm looking at my phone, not to be rude, but to look at the next few questions. So as you're watching,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:10 I know you go Okay, fair enough.   Stacey Simms  20:15 That was more for these guys. But seriously, um, I'm curious too, with, with not knowing when many of us will see our children's, endo next, or if we're adults are watching. Are there things that we should be doing? To check in between? I mean, I know that I'll give you an example. You always check penny for you know, scar tissue.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:40 Right? Like lipohypertrophy. Exactly. Okay,   Stacey Simms  20:42 so go for it. Tell us what we do. Yeah,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:43 so, so lipohypertrophy is when you will put your infusion side in the same place too often, or you give yourself insulin injections in the same place too often. And the downside of that is not only does it look funny, but it can prevent the insulin that you give yourself from getting into The bloodstream, and then it doesn't get from the bloodstream to the eventual target tissues of liver and muscle. So if you are thinking you're giving yourself a bolus, but you're giving it giving it into an area of life or hypertrophy, then perhaps the insulin isn't doing what it needs to do. And that can obviously be dangerous and increase your risk of decay. So, yes, I do think that parents should be checking your child for life or hypertrophy in the same way that their endocrinologist probably does regularly. And the thing that I would probably say is, the easiest way to do is just make sure it doesn't feel like a tricep, you know, flex your tricep right here. And you can feel a little bit of muscle tissue right there. And light by hypertrophy feels a lot like that. It feels kind of clumpy. It doesn't hurt the child, but it feels it like oh, it seems like there's a big clump of subcutaneous tissue here. You can even see like oh hypertrophy a lot of times and I might wind up doing that when I'm doing virtual visits is just have the kid in the room and say, Show me where you Put your palm but just look to make sure it's not looking clumpy now, I'm not going to do anything. Like make them show me their family or anything like that. But you know, their arms, their belly, that sort of stuff. Yeah, I might do that at the opposite.   Stacey Simms  22:13 That makes a lot of sense, though. You know. And another thing I was looking at my list of questions when we were talking about supplies, one of the interesting things is people seem to be posting quite a bit about not being able to get those little alcohol wipes. Yeah, we haven't used those in a very   religiously for years. Sure, sure. Is that something people need to be concerned about? Should I be getting out the rubbing alcohol and checking to make sure as a pediatric   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  22:36 endocrinologist I should say the standard line Yes, the proper protocol for either giving an insulin injection or putting a new infusion site in or putting a new Dexcom in or poking a finger is to wipe that area with alcohol first. That being said, You are probably not the only family. I take care of Stacy where your child does not use rubbing out Color an alcohol swab every time. So yes, we want clean skin. We know that giving an injection or anything that punctures the skin. without alcohol, there is a slightly increased risk of getting an infected site. There's bacteria everywhere. Obviously there are viruses everywhere. But when we're thinking about using alcohol swabs, we're thinking about killing the bacteria on the skin or removing the bacteria from the skin so that you can give a cleaner injection, or a cleaner infusion site or a cleaning Dexcom or cleaner Dexcom site etc. So if you can't get alcohol swabs, you still need to give your child insulin and you still need to figure out what her blood sugar is. So all in all, what's better to give a shot with alcohol to give a shot without alcohol swabs or to give no shot at all. They go in that order best is with second best is without third best is no insulin at all in that's not best. That's bad news. So   Stacey Simms  24:00 So, you know, another thing, that I have a whole bunch of questions here that I'm trying to get to the right order to go in,   when, when we're talking about these in between visits for a long time, and again, I know that you may be limited as what you can say, because we are talking in official capacity. So some of this is on, you know, I don't say on the record off the record, but you'll understand. So there are a lot of people who are very comfortable adjusting pump settings. Sure. There are a lot of people who aren't, you know, what's your advice for a family? And this was a question that came up in our group. I'll say, Michelle asked this, how do you advise or empower, newer diagnose parents on taking pump settings into their own hands? You know, are there ways to tell when something is a basal issue or a QRP? Sure.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  24:46 Yeah, so first of all, I'm speaking for myself, I'm not speaking for every pediatric endocrinologist out there. I feel comfortable with my patients adjusting insulin settings without my permission, you do not need my permission to adjust your pump settings or your insulin dose. Is, however other pediatric endocrinologist may feel differently. I'm not speaking for all of us. In general, if your basal rate needs adjustment, that means that your child has been going a long time without eating. And her blood sugar either goes up, or her blood sugar goes down in the absence of all other factors. Best time is overnight. So if your kids waking up with a high blood sugar in the morning or higher than it was when he went to bed, that probably means he needs more basal. If he's waking up with a lower blood sugar than it was when he went to bed in the absence of the correction dose at nighttime, then chances are he needs less basal insulin. And kind of the same thing goes for carb coverage, if you notice every time after a meal, and I'm not talking about just that postprandial spike on a Dexcom because that is related not to the insulin quantity but to the timing of the insulin absorption. But let's say two hours, three hours, three and a half hours after every meal. If your kids blood sugar is going up that means That she needs a stronger carbohydrate factor. And remember, Stacy, I know you've written about this in your book, the factor is the denominator, right. So of insulin to carb ratio of one to 10 is stronger than insulin to carb ratio of one to 15. It's the denominator of the fraction. Similarly, for the instant correction factor, if you're giving a dose of insulin through the pump, or through the sliding scale that you've written down, and your child's blood sugar doesn't come far enough, universally, don't make adjustments based on just one thing, let her wait for a pattern to develop. But if you're noticing that you're that your child's blood sugar never comes down far enough after you give them a correction dose. That means let's make the correction factor stronger. And by that I mean maybe change it from 60 to 50, or from 50 to 40 or from 40 to 35, etc. Vice versa, if you are scared to to give a correction dose because your child's blood sugar because it doesn't come in or comes down too far after for extra dose that make it a little weaker. And by doing that I've seen baby move it from 50 to 60 From 60 to 75, or 75 to 90, etc.   Stacey Simms  27:04 So if you're watching this, and I covered my face and kind of made a joke, the reason is because in the book, I do talk about this, but I have definitely made the mistake of thinking that a smaller number meant less insulin.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  27:18 So it is confusing. It is it, just think about it in terms of the denominator of the fraction, a half a pizza is bigger than a quarter of a pizza, even though two is smaller than four.   Stacey Simms  27:30 You know, and that brings, I know this, this interview is getting a little bit away from Covid 19. But we've got plenty of time to talk about that. The just a follow up on the calling your physician and you know, there are a lot of wonderful presenters like yourself, who will take a call every day for a month from a nervous mom of a newly diagnosed kid. But there are a lot of parents who worry that they're bothering the doctor for things like that. Obviously, it never bothered me. But all kidding aside, can you assure people that if they're calling for instance adjustments that   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  28:00 it's okay. Yeah, it is absolutely. Okay. Like I said, I want you to feel empowered to do that on your own. But if you need help, we are there to help. And my office still has CDs answering the phone during daytime hours, you can take blood sugars and help make adjustments. The physician on call over the night or weekend can also do that, although it's probably easier to do that during office hours while we have CDs answering the phone because they can pull up the child's chart whereas if you call me on a Saturday afternoon, I'm not going to have your child's chart at my fingertips to make those adjustments. So yes, but please don't feel you are on your own. And please don't feel you are bothering us. Yes, when we take call. We also are seeing patients in the hospital and we are usually seeing patients in the office although now we may be doing more virtual visits. We are doing other things. It's not like all we do is just feel phone calls. We are doing other things and so we appreciate that one. If it's not an emergency, if it can wait until morning. That'd be great to wait until more But there are emergencies. And we also understand that when people have a child with diabetes, they worry at three o'clock in the morning, and if they're worried enough, please call us. Yes, that's what we're there for. But remember, we also are not general pediatricians. And so when it comes to Covid 19, if you are worried that potentially your child may have been 19, that is a better question for your primary care provider rather than us. We are not your general pediatricians. However, if you're feeling like your child was getting sick, and you're having trouble managing their blood sugar's because they're sick. That's a question for us.   Stacey Simms  29:32 Well, and that was what I was just going to ask if someone says, Oh my gosh, I think my child has Covid 19 and they have type one diabetes, what would you advise them to do?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  29:43 I think we're still learning more and more, you know, testing is not really readily available and everything that I've heard about testing to this point, it's been difficult to get a test now hopefully, that'll change soon. Um, and However, our primary care providers are at the frontline of giving of getting people coded testing. figuring out who needs to be tested? So I would defer that question to your primary care office because they will have the most up to date answers about whether you should simply, well, we should all be quarantined ourselves, right, we should all be practicing social isolation, but especially if you have any suspicion that you or your child has Covid 19 you need to stay in your house. And you do not need to expose any other people to this. So in that situation, though, whether do you bring your kid for a Covid 19 test? Or do you just try to isolate them and pray that they get better and again, they should I mean, kids with type one diabetes are not at greater risk for developing Covid 19 or having the respiratory complications, it just makes them more likely to get ketones. So anyway, um, if your kids healthy enough to just stay at home and continue that quarantine. Right now, that's probably what we're recommending, although things may change anytime,   Stacey Simms  30:57 and I guess you've answered this, but I'm going to ask them Again, just in a different way, to be perfectly clear the evidence as we're speaking right now, would say that if a child comes down with Covid 19 has type one diabetes, there is nothing different   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  31:11 to ground at home. Just Just differently from a diabetes management perspective perspective, make sure they're hydrated check for ketones if they're actually acting sick, even if their blood sugar seems fine. Um, follow your sick day protocol. But yes, nothing different compared to your other children who might not have type one diabetes.   Stacey Simms  31:32 Um, something else I wanted to ask. Gosh, I should have closed the blinds. Whoo. It's getting hot in here. One of the things I meant to ask when you talked about the time in between visits because I had a lot of questions on this in our Facebook group. People are saying like me, Benny's appointment was supposed to be in two weeks, we'll do a virtual visit, but I assume we're not going to get that a one. See that? We usually get quarterly.   Do you? Look we have a CGM so I can see what it probably is. But do you ever recommend a homemade one T tests.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  32:01 Okay, you and I, about a one says yes, yes. So again, I'm not speaking for every pediatric endocrinologist out there, but people definitely overrate the importance of A1C, and so many people come into my office on pins and needles because they're so nervous about what that number is going to be in. As we've said before, you've heard me say it. And I think that's one of the reasons you and I get along so well is because we have a similar perspective, and everyone has different perspectives. But my perspective is, the ANC is just a number. And it's right now the best number we can get in a six minute turnaround test, tell us to summarize blood sugars, but it's just that it's just a number. And as we have more CGM data available, I think we're going to learn that time and range, maybe an even better predictor of avoidance of long term complications, because that's what we're talking about, right? We're talking about not necessarily trying to get your kids A1C to be less than x. We We are talking about trying to help your child be as healthy as she can be when she is 85 or 90 years old, right? And so it's not about the agency, there are plenty of kids I take care of where I'm worried. This kids having way too many low blood sugars, it's affecting their lifestyle. And I'd be much happier if they're a once you jumped up a half point or a full point if they had fewer low blood sugars. So my perspective on it once you may be different than many of my colleagues, I don't think it's worth it for you to check anyone see in the middle of between office visits, especially if you have the capability of looking at a continuous glucose monitoring system that can tell you time and rich.   Stacey Simms  33:38 Is it homey? Once the test even accurate? I've always wondered about   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  33:41 Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I have not seen I'm sure there are studies out there comparing the home a woman c test to a serum drawn that means coming from your arm type of A1C test versus a finger poke A1C test, which we do in our office. Um, I honestly have not looked at those studies, so I can't answer your question. But my guess is yes, it's probably pretty close. Okay, so   Stacey Simms  34:04 I have another one. You know, all these people in my group know you very well. And the question, I've lost the question, Where did I put it? Ah, here it is. Okay. So it's a two parter. The first part is all about technology. Have you mentioned time and range? You mentioned CGM advice for parents. This is a question who says, Are we overly reliant on technology? Or is that a thing? Does she need to worry about being isolated? If something doesn't work?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  34:35 Yeah, I mean, you use what you have. I mean, we didn't have dex comes when Benny was first diagnosed. We didn't have insulin pumps, when I was, you know, or there were they were out there, but they were not commonly used when I was a resident. Um, when my senior partner Dr. Parker was doing his medical school, they didn't even have finger stick blood sugars, right. And so diabetes management is changing and we not relying on technology, but the technology has been good. And it's helped make diabetes easier, not a cure, but a little easier unless you become a slave to that technology. And you can definitely overreact to the readings on a Dexcom. I know plenty of people who will not put their phone away because they always want to know what every second what their child's blood sugar is. And that's not healthy either.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:22 I know what you're talking about.   Stacey Simms  35:26 I'm only half kidding. But yeah, nothing really can be a problem. I think the bottom line for that too, is if as you're listening, you think, gosh, I don't even know where our meter is. Or do I have test strips? You know, that's the kind of thing that you'll definitely want   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:40 to check but you do need to have a beat. You need to have a meter even when your child wears a Dexcom or a Libra or Medtronic CGM. You will need a backup way to check blood sugar. So yes, please have a meter and strips and lancets that's the finger poker available.   Stacey Simms  35:55 lancets we all have 5000 of those.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:57 Yes.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:59 Last question was Do bow ties help you in your practice?   Stacey Simms  36:03 choice only.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  36:04 So, my grandfather always wear bow ties, you actually might be able to see him right over here at Grand Prix right over there over my shoulder. Always wear bow ties. Um, and so I got that from him. Um, and someone said, I looked smarter when I bought a bow tie. And I was like, you know, great. I like looking smart, even though I so, but to be honest, yes, um, especially in this age of viral transmission, you're probably not going to see me wear a tie when we do a virtual visit. And you may not see me wear a tie as much in the office in the near future. The reason that many of the pediatricians through Boston Children's Hospital other of the older pediatricians wear bow ties rather than long straight ties is because there's less germs from this than there are from something dangling and so I will for virtual visits, I probably will not I almost certainly will not have a bow tie on and for the for visiting the office, I probably won't either just to have one less thing on mice around me that can collect your   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:06 which is your grandfather in the medical field or, you   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:09 know, furniture industry.   Stacey Simms  37:13 All right. So before I let you go, because this is the first time I've ever had you on the podcast, hopefully not the last. But you know, it was in the interest of kind of feeling a little strange about, you know, that kind of relationship, my son's endocrinologist and that sort of thing. But now, I this has been great.   I'm curious, you know, you've been in practice for us at 15 years. I finished   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:34 my fellowship in 2005. So this is this will be my 15th. year as of July one or the end of my 15th year.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:42 Yeah, we caught you   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:44 right at the beginning. Right, exactly. You were one of my may not my very first but one of my first patients now, I shouldn't say that. But yeah,   Stacey Simms  37:51 I mean, in the first couple of years,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:52 right, exactly in the first few years. Exactly. So   Stacey Simms  37:54 I'm curious, you know, it's hard to sum up in just a few minutes, but from then to now. already mentioned the technology have things. It's kind of a pet question. I was gonna say, Have you seen things change, but I really want to know, like, how is it to be a pediatric endocrinologist from then to now? I mean, it's got to be difficult with insurance things and all that sort of stuff. But are you still happy? This is a field you chose?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  38:20 Yes. I love my job. I love taking care of kids with diabetes. I kids with diabetes are only about 30 to 35% of my patient volume. And so I take care of 60% of other kids that I also love taking care of. It's the dream job. And yeah, I did not grow up thinking I wanted to be a pediatric endocrinology. I didn't know I really wanted to be a doctor. When I was in high school. I mean, there are some people that say they knew it from age two for me, that was not the case. But every step along the way, I've kind of thought yeah, maybe I do want to be a doctor. And then I go to medical school and yeah, maybe I do want to be a pediatrician and then I do my pediatric rescue. See and yeah maybe I do want to become a pediatric specialist etc so each step has kind of led me along the way and it's been a great choice I love taking care of your own as well as the all the other kids that I take care of. It's a dream job except for the paperwork.   Stacey Simms  39:15 Alright, so I'll check in with you again if I can during this time who knows how long we're going to be at home you guys doing? Okay, you can have your own everybody   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  39:22 do everyone's healthy. You know? I mean I I'm worried I mean, not about my kids not necessarily about my health I mean when one of those middle age brackets right but I'm worried about my parents, my grandparents who are still alive, you know, I'm, I am worried about I'm worried about the economy of not only our country, but the world I'm worried about, about the financial well being of my patients, even though I'm you can kind of get the sense I'm not really all that worried about the health of my patients with Covid 19 as long as they Following Sick Day protocols and but that doesn't mean go out and get exposed because obviously we need to contain this virus. I am worried about our world. But I'm not necessarily worried about the children that I take care of related to cope with it and I just don't want them spreading this terms to their grandparents.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:17 I think you're absolutely right on that. Well, we will leave it there. And hopefully we can check back in and I will see you for a virtual visit. I'm sure we'll be hearing from   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:28 that.   Stacey Simms  40:31 But I do appreciate it. Thank you so much.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:33 Yes, thanks for getting the word out states you remember, wash your hands stay inside socially distinct yourselves.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:41 But don't forget to call your parents all the people you love.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:50 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All Rights Reserved or wrongs avenged   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hello and welcome to warrior divas real talk for real women. Our show is specifically designed for divas. divas is an acronym for Destin inspired victorious accountable sisters. And we will be bringing guests on our show who will help in our mission to equip and empower a global community of women change agents as we make a positive impact on the world we live in. When we started doing this impact about four years ago, we quipped that we wanted to change the way women think and speak about themselves and others. And as we progress that was our thinking and our intentions and we want to talk about things that are impacting women. So that means we will talk about faith, family, fitness, finance, dude, and a lot of other words that don't even begin with that. So today I'm excited to bring on the show Lucy Mitchell are fierce in beautiful wellness, and I met Lucy through her husband I've been watching her for a little while and have fallen in love with her beautiful outlook on life. Lucy is a mindset and wellness coach site. Colin fitness fanatic food lover look, we got some of those f words in there. And all around personal development junkie she helps women break free from their inner mindset demons and create healthy relationships with food and fitness and define their self worth and find the confidence to live a life of purpose on their own terms. Welcome to the show, Lucy. Thank you, thank you. Well, I am so thankful to have you on the show and you know, it's a little bit of one of those things that I'm listening to what you're talking about and and what your mission is and, and it lines up so much with what we wanted to do and what we are hoping to accomplish with empowering and equipping women. I think it's it's just beautiful. So first off, I want to tell I want you to give us a little bit about what Why this is important to you? Oh, gosh, I mean, I think that I would probably have to go to a little bit of a backstory in myself. I mean, I'm first of all, I'm one of four daughters that my father had. So that in itself, there's lots of events going on in that house with my mother. And in fact, they always had a habit of choosing even female animal that was all about a daddy, there was a glutton for punishment, or he was a sweetheart, through and through. But he did raise him and my mother always did raise us to be very strong willed, very independent woman. And I said something that I've always carried through my entire life and probably proved very difficult and a lot of my relationships that I was not so much of what you call quote, unquote, a submissive woman. I just always do what I want. To do what I wanted out of life, and I wanted all my relationships, no matter what they were friendships, personal relationships, my children to live vicariously through that just, you know speak your truth. Speak your mind and and live your life to the fullest. And I really, it really hit to my core when my dad passed away suddenly, actually yesterday he realized it was five years that cancer took him from us. And in fact I woke up this morning going oh my gosh, I didn't even reflect or or anything about that which is a good thing because that means that we're you know, we're at peace with you know, his passing but I had decided about a couple of years ago. A that that cancer is is one of those that doesn't put the word I'm looking for it's it's it knows no boundaries. It's not just hereditary. It can affect anything. One right and, and that it's really important that we look for the signs and that we pay attention to ourselves. And as women, we spend so much time taking care of others that we don't stop and listen to ourselves and and listen to our own bodies and take care of our own needs. And that's where I decided, you know, that's not okay, we should be able to speak out and take care of ourselves. And so I just started like looking inward and decided I wanted to become a transformational nutritional coach. And I wanted to start working with women and in the pyramid upon women a problem phase of their lives, because that's the phase where we just given up, we have no purpose. We were just, it's all about our kids. It's all about our husbands. It's all about everybody else, and we no longer have a voice and by the time we have a voice, we feel it's too late. And I'm like, I'm techno sister. You have a voice and it's time to use it. And that's what my purpose has been. Is, is taking this drive that I have to live healthier to speak your truth to link arms with other sisters and just, you know, whatever it is, whether it's licensing, whether it's spiritual, whether it's sexual, whether its food, whether it's fitness, no matter what it is, it's like your children will be fine. Take the time to take care of yourself. Exactly where I'm at. Well, I think you bring up a beautiful point because a lot of the times those of us that are in those older years of life in we're not old, we're not dead. We we have a lot to give up, live up to and, and one of the things that I hear all too often is it's not only that they've given up, it's because a lot of times they've been so invested in helping their children. Or their spouse build up their dreams that they forgot how to dream. They didn't they don't know how to dream anymore. And they just don't have the energy to move forward with anything anymore. And a lot of that has a lot to do with Fitness, Health, the food you're putting in your body, your hormones, and like you said, they give up. I can relate to this because about a year or two ago, I was pretty much in the same place. I was. Okay, something has got to change. This is not right. Some I feel like something's hijacking my body and and what I found is there's a lot of women out there that feel that they just have to suffer silently. And I love that you're saying that's not true. I agree. And I think the other F word that we're all set is fear. Mm hmm. Exactly. Here I have the women that I have talked to is fear not a change but of making a change because they have gotten so stagnant are so used to a certain routine, a monotonous routine of doing things. It's, I want to say and I mean I'm 45 years old I've had three children I have four of my stepdaughter, but I've had four children and mentally and physically I do not feel 45 but I've also made that my passion drive like not because I remember watching my mom grow up and personalities eyes is probably today 65 right and and even then some 65 there are 45 I mean, all just depends on on your your drive to be something different, but I remember there was a cartoon and I'm gonna really date myself but way before I was born, Black and White, probably from Disney, but it was just as monotonous black or white. Whether they were just a repetitive cartoon like they had briefcases and they were just walking slowly along the line to work. And it just, it was just repetitive. They're just doing the same thing. over and over and over again, in no power, there was no life, there was no activity. And I feel like I see so many women feel that that's what they're supposed to do. Get up, feed the children take care of the husband clean the house, go to bed, right. And when I reach out to when I reach out even to some of my close friends about like, hey, there's this amazing women's conference downtown and we're going to put samples of face creams on our feasts and, and and you know, sample whatever is in here from concept. Well, I'm not no I don't and, and, you know, what will people think? Right now Like First of all, let's see if we can find something new and something done and and like let's get away from the kids away from the husbands and you know we're old I've discovered this amazing you know, like I lost 35 pounds in August give a listen to my body and I and I, you know I it's like to share all the different things that have worked for me for stepping outside of what the norm is. And I want to link Everybody with me I want to take all my sisters with me. And there's so much more there's so much fear. Well, yeah, and I agree with you on that. I think I think we have a lot of women that I listen to and and I'm surrounded by a bunch of strong women so a lot of my friends are kind of in the same boat I am their husband goes to work their husband goes on business trips, they just keep on keepin on they don't let their life be dictated by their their spouses schedule or their kids schedule. They still make time for friends. They still make time for their business, they still make time for living their life. But I realized that there's a out circle of women that I'm connected to, that that's all their life revolves around. It may be for the season, it may be that that's all they know how to do. And one of the things that it like it goes back to that fear word, word, you know, they don't want to rock the boat, so to speak. But I think it also goes back to how we're raised and what we're seeing and what's emulated for us. You talked about your dad being outnumbered by daughters Do you know? Well, he probably didn't, he didn't probably run the house, the house probably ran, you know, by the daughters more than then he would have liked to admit it admitted. But there's that that sense of confidence and ability that he instilled in you to where if your kids or your husband move on, yes, you're going to be you know, to business or to A career path or off to school, you're not going to be wrecked by that because you've got things of your own to do. It doesn't mean you're sitting waiting for Eric to come home. It doesn't mean you're waiting for your kids to come home for your life to be complete. And that's the part that we're wanting to women to realize is you are a complete human being with or without them. They are just, they are your life. You love them. It doesn't disqualify their role in your life, but they are not your your wholeness, and we want to talk about your wholeness. Yeah, yeah, exactly. My mom and dad were married for 44 years. And my dad did work. He worked. He owned his own landscaping business and then he was also a longshoreman. Very tough job. Yeah. So my mom did raise us Basically solely, I mean, our celebrations were around food. Because God was home, right? Um, you know, and it's funny when we were just together. My sister my younger my baby sister just had a baby. And he's where we sold. I just went home to go and meet him for the first time. And we were reminiscing and we were talking about how I remember when it was like Danny was home we celebrated with hungry man. You could put it in your body. Yeah, the look of joy on my dad's face wanting to meet that sounds very state hungry man dinner with the apple cobbler and the water down mashed potatoes. But it was all of us watching him eat and sitting with him because that was a rare key. Right? And what I look back on and see is that there wasn't a lot of light and color in my mom's face because what What he did in those hours to work for his daughters and his wife versus the hour during the day of what she did to keep the children alive in the house of flow. I saw that color changes we got older because she had more time and she was able to start doing things for herself. She ended up becoming a professional chef for a very small company. When I think it was close to me more moving out and still to my younger two sisters. Wow. And it was one of the things I took with me even later on was that, okay, it is okay to find your own interest outside like you're talking about outside of your role of wife and mom. And what I loved was that my dad always encouraged that. And my sisters and I have been very, very fortunate to marry husband to have always encouraged and supported any of our ventures and I believe me for I've had many years, for 21 years, I went to college for 10 years to either become an accountant, a business something and blatantly Was it a master's degree in education, I was going to be a teacher. Oh, wow. And now I'm going to become a I'm a transformational nutritional coach. Um, and God bless my husband for supporting every single one of those ventures. It but it's it was for me it was going back and like, knowing that my mom had that supportive my dad because she supported him. So just keep the house afloat, like keep food on the table. and whatnot. Exactly. And, and, you know, I think, I think we think, how do I phrase this? I think a lot of the times we as modern women think our role has changed so drastically from the quote unquote, olden days, but when you look back and You know, I'm going to use the Bible as a reference here. If you look back in the days of Abraham and Sarah and Isaac and all of them, the men went off, they went off to tin the sheep, they went off to hunt, they went off to gather, you know, they did all of that. And the women were left to take care of the home to take care of the children to take care of, you know, things that are holding the fort down, so to speak. And even even as recent as yesterday, it was Texas Independence Day here, somebody was talking about that as well. Excuse me, but in talking about that, women are afraid nowadays to be left behind by their their spouse or their children, and we're hearing more about the empty nest in their lives being just totally distraught over their children going off to college. And I'm not gonna say that I don't miss my kids. I'm not gonna say that at all. But what I'm going to say Is it opens up the doors for us to spread our wings and we need to be focused on spreading our wings not hiding away and into a shell of ourselves. It's funny that you say that because I have this is my philosophy and I have my mother philosophy of your viewers or your listeners think this is harsh. It's my philosophy. Once you're 18 you graduate you go, right need to go you need to spread your wings. Now, I understand if there might be a maybe a there's an emotional or a non mental but there's some type of a disconnect you haven't connected yet. I'll give you a little bit of time back just gonna kick you out and send you have you fend for yourself against wolves, but I came home one day and they were boxing by the German moms and she got a time we got to go. Right I was almost 19 she had found me a place. I had a job. I think that you know, but that was how I was raised. I do not understand. And I think I've done a post about this somewhere. I do not understand mom's neighbor say, No, no baby, you don't need to you need to you want to live here till you 30 you use you stay there done. Right. Right. Your job. It's your time now. Yeah, I agree. And I was raised in a very strict Christian home, and I read the Bible five times, through through, I did not see anywhere. Then it said in any fine print. You know, they can stay as long as they want. They need to go and you know, create their own household and, and live their lives. You raised them. And now it's your turn. I mean, I have the nice Do we have it like a countdown on them. Turn I've been raising children since I was 12 years old. I am right. It's my time. I want time with my husband. I want it to be just we'll check on you guys. We might even give your address Well, I think I think there's a term called leaving cleave, you know, leaving cleave to something else, not us. Do not give me grandchildren. Raising children, younger sister, so do the world a favor and get a dog grandchildren. And so I'm technically a grandmother. And they look at me and I and my girlfriends are like, really? I'm not saying I don't like babies. I love babies. Right? Like people. In today if you need to travel you need to see the world. You need to contribute any to You need to contribute to charitable causes you need to help other you know, other countries. Now we need to we need to go to Nashville we need to help Nashville right now like right. so horrible what happened in the middle of it. There's so many more important things that need to be focused on then Okay, you're 18 go get married and have children. Exactly. They go and do that they can't fend for themselves and then they come back well in and and i agree we've had we've had a we've got a son that's in the military. We've had had daughters that went off to college, they came back for a period of time and we're we were at the same place of Okay, the clock has started. What What is your action plan what you know, will be a safe place for you to land come back and land if you need to, but yeah, what's the action plan? What's the end result? I kept resetting the timer on the microwave. When my son came home from college. I was like, go take it. And and I, but they appreciate that they think it's hard, you don't understand they're like, No I do sweetheart, things have got changed just because it's, you know, it's 2020, the millennial state of mind is not a mind, I understand, because you do not understand the hardship that those of us who are our older actually went through. Well, and I think I think we also understand how important it is for them to have their independence and to, you know, it's not even just about me for for for my kids, I want them to be strong and solid and independent on their own right, and making good decisions and making a good income and making, you know, good life choices. I don't want them feeling like they're under my wing the whole time because I haven't trained them all these years to stay under my wing. I've trained them to push them out of the nest. Yeah, well And it's like I even told my elder to I have given my mind my body my soul My spirit my everything to raising you and keeping you alive right now trying to invest all of those efforts and energies back into myself. Right? Because I still have the second half of my life and that is equally as important as the rest of your life. So if we're going to roll the dice and mover important at this point, you know it's and and that is I that's what I like to also talk to my clients about it like this is now your time and dive into I really big about faith about whether when no matter what it is, God fear if universe angels whatever it is that you believe in. That is a huge when you lose that you lose yourself, yourself, your sense of self worth, right. And when you tap back in to that through meditation, through prayer through journaling, you're able to kind of like have your eyes reopen to who you really are as an individual, especially as a real woman as a woman. And a lot of times, it's a very uncomfortable process, but it's, it's step one, before we can do any other type of change, it's like, you've got to step back in, tap back into that spiritual sense of who you are, who you were created to be. Right. And, and we're gonna be going to break here in just a few minutes. But when we come back from that break, I want to I want us to talk about the difference between femininity and feminist. I think the feminist word gets, you know, thrown out there and everybody already thinks, you know, angry, bitter woman. But more so than that. I want us to talk about embracing our femininity because that's where our true strength is. I believe and and I love that you talk about this on such a transparent parent level. But I want us to dive into that when we get back from the commercial break so that we can really break that apart just a little bit. And then then we'll go into the fitness side of things after that, but we're gonna take just a couple of minutes to pay for the show with our sponsors, and we will be back in just a second. All right, we are back. And I know we talked before we left for the break in said we were going to come back and talk about embracing our femininity. So So Lucy, let's talk about that for a minute. I know years ago, I went to a women's conference because yes, I go to women's conference, biggest tomboy out there and I still go to women's conference conferences. And one of the ladies was talking about how The color scheme where you had pink for women and blue for men nowadays used to be actually the opposite. Back in the late 1800s to 19 hundred's blue was for women and pink, pink and red were for men. And so we keep mixing things up a little bit. And so when we talk about our femininity I've I left high school I joined the Navy, I worked as an aircraft mechanic then worked in the aviation industry. So in the military, I was called a dude with long hair, basically. But when we go into embracing our femininity, it took me a while to even figure out what that looked like because I had struggled so hard to try and fit in with my male counterparts that I didn't know how to be feminine. And I really didn't understand what feeling comfortable in my own body was and I really did And understand how that led to having close relationships with girls, you know as girlfriends, and what that was all about, because all my guy, all my friends were guys, and then I'm married. And you know my husband and I have this little competition going back and forth because I was trying to compete with him basically for his role in the family. And it ended us in a hot mess. But I want I want to hear a little bit of a taste because I've watched some of your Facebook posts and I've watched some of your talk about femininity and embracing it and really just discovering yourself and I want to hear how you feel to best translate to women the importance of embracing their femininity. I, first of all, I can honestly say I'm right there with you. I had more guys But I do call friends I just don't understand. I don't understand women. And again, I don't know if it was because of being raised by my gentle father I'm not sure what it is, but I know for for me I I can see I'm both sides of that sword in a sense that I can handle my own. But I am a I am I'm a I am a woman I am sweet, I am kind I am sexual I am I incense sensual, I am in tune with my my body and my senses and I'm comfortable in my own skin. I I don't feel and this again is my own opinion based on who I have seen and dealt with who is considered a feminist femininities the harshness that I'm not kidding. competition with my husband in the fact that who has the bigger package or however you want to work that right? Um, there is a role that he has and he is supposed to have. I want him to have that role. That's why I married him. He is our protector. He is our fighter. He, he's the man of the house. But if he needs a warrior right beside him, I am that woman. Right? Doesn't need another man. I am that woman. I am his Joan of Arc. As I like to so eloquently put that and I think in my messages when I am doing my posts or doing my stories is I like to I think I had done one A while ago where I was describing a road. So what from fairway you look at a rose and the roses Beautiful, beautiful, soft, pedal, scented beauty Mostly comes in a variety of colors, whether it's a tight flower or beautifully blooms, but if you get too close, you are going to get pricked by a thorn. Now, is that for the feminist part? Or is that the Thor's disorder protecting her femininity, right? It's all in how you want to look at the flower. But for me, I feel like all women are beautiful roses like we are. We have our authority to protect ourselves, but we are they're beautiful, we are feminine and there's no reason to hide that. to, to be ashamed of that. Is that's what that's how we were created. And not in a sense I mean, that's that's my, that's where I stand on that part of it. I mean, I feel I raising a daughter, raising two daughters when one's out of the house. I look at my daughter and I'm like, I want you to be as strong and I bought her this bracelet. And I said, always remember to adjust your crown. And don't have mine with the train thing. But always remember to adjust your crown. And remember the queen who gave it to you. Hmm, something along those lines, and she was amazing. I just want you to understand that no one is no one is to not knock you down. Because you need to remember where you came from, right who your queen is. Because people knocked me down. had a lot of horrible things happen. I've experienced a lot of things. I've experienced a lot of judgment. Even in the course of that I'm in now I get a lot of messages about some of my posts of like, I don't understand why you talk the way you talk or how you feel the way you feel. And there and it's a lot of times it's from women. And I just looked at my daughter and I said But it doesn't stop me. I'm just gonna get back up and I'm going to keep spreading my message because somebody needs to hear it. Somebody somebody else Can you benefit from what I have to say? Just like someone out there will benefit from what you have to give. And and I wholeheartedly agree with that. You know, one of the things that has happened over the years we started divas impact, like I said about four years ago. And right off the bat, we started getting a bunch of hate mail, mainly from feminist organizations, a few from guys, because they mistakenly thought that we were going to do this as another male bashing organization. And quite honestly, I've told everybody this is absolutely not a male bashing organization. We realize the need for men in our lives, just as we hope men realize the need for us in their lives. We we don't I'm not as concerned about what the guys of the world are saying about us women. I'm more concerned with what we are saying about ourselves and each other. You know, we you know, when You've got examples out there, like Real Housewives of bad behavior or bad girls clubs or whatever that's going on out there. They have the, the opportunity to, to send a such a empowering message. But they don't, you know, because drama sells. And when I was, you know, kind of whispered in my heart to start this organization and and get things going I was like but God I don't like women. I really don't like women their main they're nasty, you know and he's like, Yeah, you've had your episodes too and I'm like, okay, you know to Shay. And I remember a few years ago, whenever, whenever the Donald Trump and Billy Bush news broke, I got a lot of hate mail. You know, why aren't you denouncing Trump and why aren't you denouncing billy bush and why aren't you denounce? In and even with the Harvey Weinstein and, and all of those, and I said, because I'm not focused on them, I'm not letting them dictate my worth, I'm not letting them dictate the worth of all women out there. I'm working on me, I'm focusing on me. And, and and the women that I speak to, and I encourage and I empower and let them know that, yes, bad things can happen to you. But you don't have to live in a victim role anymore, you can live victoriously, and that's, you know, what we're focusing on is walking women out of those dark places. And so for the feminine femininity side of things, what I've also realized is, the more I've embraced my femininity, the more intimate my relationships have become with my girlfriends, the more intimate relationships have come with my family and with my spouse, it because I'm loving myself first before I learned how to love Anybody else and, and to me, that is the difference I see between, you know, saying I'm, I'm into feminism, or I'm into my femininity and and opening myself up to really love myself now loving yourself has a whole other series of side effects, I guess is what you'd call it kind of like a rolling blackout. There's just you start loving yourself and then you go, Oh, I love myself. So I'm gonna go to the doctor and get checked out and make sure I'm healthy. Oh, I love myself. The doctor says I could I could work on fixing these things. So I'm going to work on fixing these things to make sure my body is optimal. And I'm going I'm going to change the way I eat. We've got Kim Slater who does our magazine and and does a lot of the things behind the scenes for us. You know she's in that season right now. We'll have her on the show here in a few weeks. To talk about her health journey that she was flung into, as at the beginning of the year with a massive heart attack and, and in the lessons that she's having to learn for herself, but that whole femininity thing feeds so much of your life. It's what builds up your confidence that gets your husband looking at you with a little bit of, Hey, what do you do? And he's doing it in a way because he's more intrigued because he sees the woman that he was attracted to in the first place. It's interesting that you say that I'll quickly say that, you know, when I started my mild personal transformation last year, before that, you know, I was trying to help other other women men, it didn't matter. I just wanted everybody to be aware about cancer, you know, after losing my father and other health issues that attributed that I just didn't. My goal was I don't want anyone else to lose up Father a husband a daughter of themselves, like listen to the signs so I'm so like, driven like everybody needs to work out get up cheapest way to eat this much water. It was like what I woke up every day but that was my passion and I was ignoring my own health. I was ignoring my own grieving process I was ignoring my own fleet, my own health but mental health spiritual health all the things and as I I got a I did a post about this is something I can recall but I remember looking at a picture of myself. I think it was this past summer and I was like, I thought I was in optimal health working, working out six days a week, eating 1400 to 1600 calories a real food healthy greens all blah, blah, blah. meditating journaling, praying all the things that when I looked at myself I was pale bloated 45 pounds overweight. I just had to like look in my eyes and I was like, I stopped. And I was like, on this task to help other people, when did I stop and take care of myself first? Right. And as soon as I did, I mean as soon as we got home from that trip, I don't remember we went to sun river something. I immediately called a nutritional coach. But I knew right away my doctor just oh my gosh, yeah, go take a nap, you'll be fine. You know, I was like, okay, it's got to be deeper. And I started working with the nutritional coach and I and I stopped helping all the other people. I put everything on hold because I was like, I really wait. I'm suffering from vertigo. My hands are numb, my feet are numb. These are all things I was experiencing but ignore right because I was so passionate about helping other people live their best life and be healthy so you don't die like my daddy. That I I didn't you know, pay them for myself. But as soon as I did that the glow came back the weight when I found out I was insulin resistant. So Kyle was a huge thing. I was borderline type one diabetic. Yeah, the bad one. Yeah, um, I changed my eating habits. I, you know, we changed how I work out, changed how I slept, all of the symptoms went away, the weight falling off. And my husband even looked at me He's like, Oh, my God, baby are glowing. Right? People like, we're looking at my pictures, like, what filter are you using? Now using a filter, you're glowing, but your hair is shiny. And it was like, and I looked at myself, and I was like, I feel beautiful. I don't think and I'm not ashamed of this. This is what I want. Everyone's like, so I reevaluate everything but it was like I'm taking care of myself and like And I had no problem looking at. And hopefully it's okay to say that I had no problem looking in the mirror naked. Right? Because that's a woman as a woman, especially after you've had children. Right with the lights on girl, right? Ugly bathroom lights on, right? Like, that's hard to do, but I didn't know I was like, I am feeling myself right now. Now I'm not gonna go into a changing room lighting and I'm loving and feeling beautiful. I feel sexy. I still sleep. I feel gentle. I feel happy. Because I took care myself first. Right, feel feminine. And that wasn't a feeling I felt all before that is so harsh, hard, poor like, ready to take on the world and compete with everybody else and that wasn't feminine. I don't know if that was coming. Right. Well and I think one of the one of the things we we hear a lot of the times is or you know, I worked in the faith base area before I started out on my own after leaving the corporate arena and I went from dressing like a dude because I was always in jeans and T shirt and then I went to work in the church offices. And I knew I needed to look female but I was just how do I I was putting the outer surfaces on it was like treating the symptoms without treating the actual cause. And I would put on an outfit that everybody go oh that looks so cute on you and I would feel the most uncomfortable ever. And it had nothing to do with the outfit. It had everything to do with the skin I was walking around in I did not feel comfortable in myself. And you know you're talking about people sending you the hate messages and and then asking you what filters you use. You use and things like that, which, you know, they're thinking You look amazing. But on the other side, they're also kind of giving a second backhanded compliment, you know, oh, you can't look that good person. And I remember when we started getting those hate messages, first thing I did, I stood up, I dropped my laptop down, and I stood up and I did a little happy dance. Because it's getting people off their balance a little bit. It's getting them to look at things through a different perspective. Making them question something for themselves will have so and so can do it then maybe I can too. Or what the heck is Angie, the biggest tomboy, we know doing starting a women's organization. What gives her the right i mean, i i've had women go, Oh, that's cute. I'm like, okay, you know, and now they're going well, how do we get in your magazine? How do we get on your show? How do we do this? I'm like, well, there's a process but we're friends. Okay, but there's still a process. And I'm not doing that to be mean or ugly. But, you know, I am looking for the people that want in and want in at the at the ground level, because that means that they understand the vision and the mission, we're going after they're not coming in with ulterior motives to go, Hey, you know, this is great, but let's do this. And, and let's steer this your vision, your goal, your passion, let's steer it to the right a little bit or to the left a little bit, so it fits more of what we want. No, this is what we're going for. This is our niche. This is what we're working on, is equipping and empowering women period, in a variety of different ways. And they're like, oh, bitch, it'd be so much better if you'd sign on with, you know, this organization or that organization and I opened up the organization's page and it's just male bashing and, and hating on each other and Like, yeah, not what we're about. It doesn't resonate. Yeah. And so, when we start talking to women, I've watched women open up after going through all that they've gone through, I see what you're talking about, you see that physical transformation, the light bulb moment that comes on, and their whole life changes. And in, you know, I've shared before that, you know, being a veteran, I'm tied to a lot of veteran communities and and I'm telling you, my veteran sisters are the worst of it. I love them to death. But oh my gosh, they wear me out, because they are so stuck in being a victim, but touting that they're a warrior, but they're living in a victim role, because they don't want to fix anything. And I guess that's our biggest uphill battle is how do we get them to hear it enough to where finally they get fed up and start doing something about it. Yeah, I know I that's it. That's an interesting question. I'm not sure. I mean, I again grazers to me I have all my outside family was actually own Navy. Okay. My first husband was Navy. I'm attracted to the servicemen and I think I got some army leaves in there somewhere. I'm not sure but my dad did not serve the police officer and then my mom got pregnant but and she was like, heck no, you need to come home every day. But I don't know if it's the year you spend. You know, somebody you're being told what to do, when to do how to do it that when you're out, right of that environment. You're like, what I mean, because I know that was part of the premises of like us starting the Lightfoot media. My husband starting that I mean when way back even when he was doing Your podcasts and things that when we first started this whole thing, it was like helping veterans get started because they spent so many years being told. When when to eat, when to make your bed, where to put your shoes on, when to shoot when to do all the things. And then when you're out, it's like nobody's telling you what to do. Right and when to do it. You don't do anything, but you got to do something. And, and I know that that that was that was helpful for a lot of veteran entrepreneurs with being able to go to Eric and him saying, Okay, this is how you start, but I'm you I can only get you so far. You've got to take it from there. Exactly. That might be it for the women desert you know, maybe that's that mindset of like, okay, switch it just a little bit and and remember what that authoritative voice of you being told what to do, and now tell yourself like, speak to yourself in that. Yeah, I mean, I and I like I said, I I'm just speaking from, from experience, veterans wife. Well, and you've had a front row seat to watch all of that. And do we want to go ahead and give you a shout out there? Because in addition to your hats that you wear for fierce and beautiful wellness as a coach there and leading people there, you've just been named CEO of life flip media, haven't you? Yeah. So yeah, yeah, that that is an amazing thing in itself as well. I asked if they came with a pay raise. He says, Wait, we get paid. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about that for just a few minutes. I'm not sure exactly what to say. I think he just woke up one day with a brilliant idea. No, actually, I think it's it's a great power move for him. Because he was actually wearing way too many hats and I, I think it's a great obviously it's a great move for it to be a women ran and owned business. It's a different type of demographic with a power move. So I know that there was a lot of driving behind that. But he takes a lot of guidance and advice of mine. And I really wanted him to be able to focus on what she's really good at, which is working with our customers. And you know, the me I don't understand that part of the business you know, the media bookings and the article places I that part of it I'm like I have too much going on and this three little head of mind when it comes to business when it comes to making sure that we are on the right path. And that our business plan, our business model needs tweaking or just seen or we're not that's my forte. Right? So we just decided to to do a title change. And and I think that puts us a little bit ahead of the game, especially being a woman. Yeah, having that see I mean, I my LinkedIn is blowing up ever since I changed that. Yeah, we're having a business meeting, in fact today because since he made that announcement, just that I know, but I mean, what we're getting into because I'm like, at the end of the day, this is his baby. This is his dream and his but we talked about it for the last year or so. And I just said when you're ready, then I will not lead you astray. Well, that what that is fabulous. You need to change your LinkedIn. I made it official. Yeah. Did you find out From one of his Facebook Lives, or did he actually tell you in person? He told me in person. But you never know. You know, Facebook or my Instagram Stories like what we're doing what I just saw that she didn't tell me. Oh, I literally in the next room. Yeah, you could just tell reviews. Exactly. All right. Yeah, it's an exciting experience for our business. We've had a massive amount of growth. And I want that growth to continue. So I needed him to be in the right, roll on to focus on that, right. Yeah. It's gonna be good. Yeah. And I think we are going to have him on our leading moment show in a few weeks. I've got to get him to get all the stuff together for us to do that. But having him on our leading moment show, to really talk about how to get started and how to do what he does. And encourage and inspire some small business owners on that page for us. So maybe you can join him when we do that call, but of course, yeah, it'll be a black. Yeah. So we're gonna take another break real quick and we will be back after these messages. All right, we are back with Lucy Mitchell. We are talking about her fierce and beautiful wellness and mindset coaching and all that she does that makes her glamorously beautiful, inside and out. So as we go into this next next segment of our show, what I want to talk with you about is more. I'm going to tell you, this is all purely selfish. I'm going to preface that right off the bat. So a few weeks ago, right before Christmas, peloton came out with that commercial about the bike and everybody lost their flippin mind over it. You know, that was sexist. That was this that was that and I'm sitting here going well, what we didn't See, he was maybe she asked for the bike. Maybe she didn't because you know, quite honestly, I would like a peloton. But my husband kind of refuses to buy me one right now because I made such a big deal at a date. He took me out on one night he took me to dinner as he goes, you want to go to Jason's deli, so not particularly. He goes, come on, we can go get a salad bar. Fine, you know, so we go to Jason's deli, and we get the salad bar and we eat our dinner. And then we go to Walmart, which we had to get dog food or whatever. And he goes back to the bike bicycle section back there. And he's like, Hey, I was looking at these the other day. Did you see this bike? Do you want this bike? This bike would be a fun bike to have. Don't you want? Don't you don't want a bike? I do not want a bike. He's like, Oh, come on. You'd have fun with this one. You'd like this one. Are you sure you don't want this bike? Come on. We ended up walking out of Walmart with a bike that night. So I told him I said the theme of that whole date was Hey, you're complaining about not feeling good. So why don't you lose some weight and ride a bike, you know, eat a salad ride a bike. So we give him grief over that all the time. But my biggest thing is not about riding that bike. It's about I've had some balance issues, I've had some things that I just don't trust, the agility of my body right now. So balancing myself on two wheels is kind of a freaky idea to me, but I like the peloton idea because I feel like I could slowly progress until I got that confidence back. But, you know, you said that you the reason I'm bringing all that up is because, you know, you said that you like to cycle and you're a fitness fanatic and in So talk to me about I know some people that say jump all in, go all in and go as hard and as fast as you can until your body stops you and then there's people that are going, alright, if you're going to fail at that, then you need to ease yourself into So, I know you kind of help people break down their mental hurdles over things like this. So help me break down mine for a little bit. Okay? Nothing like putting you on the spot. the peloton is amazing. Um, and that ad was ridiculous because we don't know the backstory, right? So why people got all on the Tuesday just because she happened to be skinny doesn't mean anything because there could have been a whole mental thing. She could have been skinny because she had an eating disorder. And you know, and so moving her body was going to help this so she could eat real food, there could have been a myriad of things, or it could have been that she had social anxiety to go outside. So she got the bike so that she could like, start to connect with people. There's so many different things that I deal with on a daily basis. I You know, I use a virtual workout platform, through Beachbody on demand. Mm hmm. Because I do work from home so a lot of my workouts are done through that platform. I do have the peloton and then I do love my local cycle bar cycle bar and Tiger get your shout out. But he has always been when I talk to everyone is you start at step one, do you look at a baby and prop them up and tell them to run a marathon? Right? No. Step a step by step. I've been working with my mother who has bad knees and it's always been an excuse. What has not worked out a day in her life. She's 68 years old. She talks every day about losing the weight. And I say okay, Mama. Well, it's, you know, 80% nutrition, it's 20% movement. So you've made your choice. If you want to eat the way you want to eat that by the left Work on the 20% of movement. Maybe it's just you sitting in a chair with one pound weight, and you're doing bicep. Right? And you're just working on understanding the movement and we go up to two pounds until you feel confident and comfortable. You know, or I'll work with other people that say, Okay, if you have a problem with consistency, do not find an eight week 10 week program, because you're going to be done after two days. All right. Start with something that is and there's so many apps out there, I'll backtrack there so you don't have to do just what I do, which is Beachbody. I always say there are so many peloton has a free app and that you can use on any bike on a treadmill. They have weighted programs, they have yoga, they have wonderful meditation programs that I love to use. And there are other apps as well that you could download that has on if you Have a beginner where you start at and that and you start at basically what you're comfortable with. And if it's just one day you conquered that one day you're winning. And you could go on to day two. And there's been many times that I've started over. I mean, I had three babies, I had to be one. Sometimes Mondays every Monday is my day one, especially if you're a football team. Day one, right after the Super Bowl is day one. But I think you know, I you always want to talk to your doctor to start and talk to your doctor about any current medical conditions that you have. And then be you have to have an internal conversation with yourself and be like, how important is this to you, not to others to yourself. Right? What changes are you wanting to see logically, ideally, we want to wake up tomorrow and be 50 pounds lighter, all because we took two steps down the street. I ran a marathon there. Go I should eat 50 pounds lighter, right? It doesn't work that way. I ate a salad. And I bought a bike at Walmart. I lost 50 pounds. Right now, that doesn't work that way. It's a great start. But I but I always say you have to write out a plan and you have to write out a plan that will work for you. And if you can't do that alone, and that's when you reach out to people like me, who says, Okay, we're going to start with just the day one we're gonna do a four week plan. And after you talk to your doctor, you've gotten clear that there's nothing you have stability issues. I'm not going to say I want you to start balancing on one foot if you have stability issues, that's not you're going to get discouraged and defeated. But if you can handle you know, you can go for a 30 minute walk. Walking is one of the most beneficial 30 minutes a day walking is one of the most beneficial kick starters to a weight loss journey out there. Not cycling, not weightlifting. Plain old, angry dog. Well, I think just being outside helps mentally and emotionally and then and then the movement, you start waking up parts of your body that you don't realize were asleep. Well, not only that, but then you're also you're getting if you're, you're getting a break from the kid. Maybe it's a stronger and go for a walk. But if it's, if you're cooped up in the house all day or you've been in an office all day long, you get outside you get the fresh air, you get the oxygen from all of the plants that are around you. You get cute you're around nature, you could put the personal development into your ears and start a good book. Listen to an amazing podcast. I don't know maybe warrior diva out there. Um, you know, and and you're not only working your body, but you're working your mind. Those two working together will kick start an amazing weight loss sustainable journey. Well, I think that's where I start. I think a few years ago I I lost roughly 100 pounds and I did that strictly by walking there was there I changed you know, I'd done some intermittent fasting I had done some other things you know as far as weight loss goes, it was all around nutrition and walking. That was it. And I walked five miles a day. I didn't start off walking five miles a day I started off being winded walking down the street and back but it you know, by the time I was to a good steady pace, I was at five miles in under an hour. But I kept you know, going okay, well I've kind of nailed this I'm, I'm one of those people that are not consistent. So I'm adaptable is my number one strength I'm the Strength Finders thing, which means I can roll with the punches but I always strategic backs it up. So I always have something else. I'm planning in background to if this goes awry, I already know where we're going next. So the whole walking thing was fabulous for me because it helped with the weight loss. It was, whenever I tried to stretch beyond that, I started pushing my limits. And about that time is when the doctor says, you know, you really don't need to be doing any hit right now. Any high intensity, you need to keep it low. Well, that kind of took the wind out of myself and I kind of sunk back into. Oh, but see, I like the CrossFit stuff. I like some of those things. And he's like, yeah, just not right. Now. He goes, let's get some of this other stuff under control. And then we can go in there. And then it just made me feel old and grumpy. And there was a mental game that I was having to battle for a while over that. Because, you know, that was there was almost like I was accepting a sentence that he wasn't even giving me he was just saying, Let's get you to a certain point before we start doing that. And I was like, Well, if I'm not there, I don't want to I don't want to work any harder to get there. It's not coming off fast enough. It's not doing what I want it to do fast enough. And like you said, We live in an instant gratification society, you order in a box, and you drive to a window, and it's there. So we want the weight loss to come off just as fast as that burger is delivered through that window. Yeah, and I think I was talking to a potential client, in fact, just this past weekend, who was like, I have been doing keto for six weeks, and I've gained six pounds and I'm doing CrossFit. six days a week and I don't understand why nothing is moving in. And I said, Okay, well, that's what I'm hearing is what you're doing for the last six weeks isn't working. So we're going to start over and she looked at me and I said, don't get defeated. What I've seen because I have not been working with her and I've been what I would recommend. Okay, continue to CrossFit. That's it. Yes, that's it, you live naked. But women over the age of 40 do need weightlifting. cardio is not as important once you get past the age of 40. Because our our muscles and the way our bodies work, our muscles will hold on to fat. Because there's a fight or flight like, Oh, you don't want to have babies anymore. So we're going to hold on to this fact just in case you change your mind. So that way we have a way to support a baby. And I'm like, when did my muscles get to decide if I'm a child Barry like right yours anymore, like you could release that fat anymore. Done and done. It's the science behind it. So weightlifting expands your muscles to release the fat. It's the right type of weightlifting. If you're doing strenuous weightlifting like crossfitters do and I didn't cross it for two years and my father looked at me and said, I'm finally getting the son. I never had Alright, we're going to stop doing that. Yep. Um, so I was like, okay, it's CrossFit works for for certain individuals, and it is great, but just tone it down, don't need to be deadlifting 75 100 pounds or whatnot, stick with just the barbell, and maybe do just four days a week, if you really love that community in that workout, right? And give your body two days of full rest. And that one day can be a day of restoration of yoga, and meditation of maybe walking or whatnot. And I said, and then we'll look, then we look at the diet. And let's maybe do low carb instead of keto, because keto is not long term. No, it's not. If you're gaining weight on keto, which is meant to put your body in a state of ketosis, you should be losing weight. So something else is going on. And I gave her a list of recommendations that I would you know, I'm not a doctor. I just say I would take this list and talk to your doctor about the certain tests, maybe check if your insulin resistant. What's your glucose level? How's your body reacting to certain sugars, things of that nature? And, and it gave her a little bit of hope but but, you know, you've got to do your research and there's sometimes there's a little bit of adjustment and whatnot that I mean, and that's the recommendation. And actually, she just emailed me a little while ago. And then she'd like to work with me. Because her doctor didn't give her the answers that she wanted. And I wish she got more information from me, which is like, amazing, but it's just like, the information is out there. You just have to know how to educate yourself, as well as know the right people to talk to you. And a lot of times doctors just want to get you in and out. And it's just knowing how our bodies change. But once I found out that our bodies want our money, they want to hold on to that because they want us to still have babies. I was like, no, that's not okay. So, yeah, it's that's what I that's what I tell women. That's how I work with with some of my clients. is just sometimes you just got to read That's the wheel just a little bit and it'll kick start your journey and do it the healthy way. Well, I think, I think you also touched on something else as she was paying attention to her body and listening to it going, Okay, what I'm doing is not working. So therefore, something's off. I need to have another person come in and give me an outside view. Because a lot of times we don't even talk to other people about this. We just kind of suffer in silence. Oh, well, I tried this diet or I tried this exercise or I tried this lifestyle change. It didn't work for me. And a lot of the times, it may be just one turn of the wrench to get you running optimally. You know what in NASCAR, they talk about a quarter turn on the the car could totally make the car loose or tight. You know, and a lot of the times it's fine tuning what our lifestyle is and and it's not a throw it all out mindset it's a let's keep making the adjustments until we find what's working and and I think that's where a lot of people give up is they just go oh well I tried that it didn't work well let it's not cookie cutter it's definitely not cookie cutter. And that's why I share so much of my journey on my social media because that's how she found me on and watch how I went from being so cookie cutter to not sharing too much to them all the sudden sharing this new way, you know, when I discovered what was working for me and then really just sharing that it's it's individualistic, right to listen to how your body is responding to, to certain foods to certain movements. And when the ultimate goal I know for me was that I'm not going To be a diabetic, I that's just not what I want my children to see, that's not the life that I want to live. And this is my time right now to change this. And it goes back to making those sacrifices, you know, as a mom and as a woman, like I have to I have to be selfish right now. Right? Because I can't be a mom to my kids, if I'm constantly having to give myself shot. And I'm drained from all these doctor visits everything and what kind of mom Am I going to be for my children? What kind of wife Am I going to be for my husband? What kind of business owner Am I going to be for my clients and for a company? If I'm confused by this, you know, that I'm now I didn't take action. Right. Well, and I think I had I had a friend a couple of years ago that that passed away and she passed away from a recurrence of her breast cancer after her first recurrence of breast cancer she got healthy, she ate the right foods. She did everything right. And the cancer came back and, and she did have a genetic disposition to it as well as you know, other things that that brought it back. But I heard several people say, Well, if she ate everything and did everything right, and she got the cancer again, then what's gonna keep me from getting it and just trying to shift people's mindset to go that you can't go down that road, we are all created differently. We all have a unique DNA to us, that keeps us keeps our bodies moving. There are things in my family history, you know, I've got diabetes on both sides of the family. So I have to be mindful of that and I have to start putting things in place to to not go down that path. But on the other side of it is I also got a couple of cases of cancer on one side of my family. I could park my boat Go, well, you know, diabetes and cancer, they're in the cards for me. So I don't really need to work out, I really don't need to do this stuff because that's what's gonna get me in the end or I saw them try these things, it didn't work for them, so I'm not going to try them. Even though they're my relatives, I'm still uniquely created. And I it does not mean that it's an end result that I will catch that or that I won't be able to beat it. What what I think I've heard you say most all today in several different ways is taking care of yourself sets you up for so much more. And even if it is an illness that comes your way, you're better prepared mentally, emotionally, physically, for taking that that illness on head on, head on because if you're already out of shape, you're already feeling frumpy, you're already down in the dumps. You're definitely not in the mental and emotional state to take on a major illness, that if you're taking care of yourself in so many other ways, than if something comes out of left field, you're much more better positioned to go in in a warrior stance against that. Exactly. Yep, that is correct. And so, so you also do I mean, we talked a little bit before the break about how you do. You're the CEO of life flip media, you you do this as well as, you know, the fitness coaching and mindset coaching. So you're talking about, you know, feeling comfortable in your skin, not letting fear of missing out, you know, derail you. As we get ready to go into the last part of our show, I want you to kind of talk to us about what is the overall message edge that you really feel like you are here and put here on earth to accomplish share anything you want to share about your story and and how you can encourage and empower other women. You shared so much already it's gonna be a rich rich show but we just want to hear from from you as to what what you feel is your mark in the world and how you can help the women that are listening today. Well, I think I stop by called by many a unicorn. And that's that, you know, one of a kind, type individual. And I really do embrace that label. Because I've actually worked really, really hard to to be what other women cannot be And then turn around show them how they can be. So when it comes to self love, you know, we I know personally I have experienced so many things in my life that have shaped me to who I am today and why I want to help other women, my innate need to help others I was a hairdresser for 21 years I was an accountant, I helping my husband, I've PTA volunteer, room volunteer pretty much you need help moving I'm that person. My Drive was always to make other people happy. And and I realized that the end of the day was to fill the void of the lack of happiness in my own life due to abuses and whatnot that I experienced in my childhood. And in working with a life coach over the last year when I was able to finally understand what self love really meant, and how to forgive Others for what was done to me, I really, there's so many women I've even come across in my life that are experiencing that lack of self love. And they're masking it with food, with alcohol with shame, with abusive relationship with a lack of connection to their face. Blaming the world blaming society blaming others for their experiences. And my whole purpose in life is to use the platform that I've been given and my voice to a let them know it's going to be okay. That it's, it's not your fault. Everything is fixable, everything is figured out a ball. And if you need help figuring out that first step, no matter what it is, whether it's your relationship with food, whether it's emotional weight, whether it's physical weight, whether their spiritual weight whether it's figuring out how to take that first step on a treadmill, whether it's that first step on how to learn how to write a letter to your younger self, to forgive your younger self to connect with your younger self. I'm here because that's that's my that's my purpose now. And and it brings me joy I wake up every single day now hoping I'm going to connect to just one, even if it's just one person, and sometimes that one person is myself. It's like I reconnect with myself in some way I discover something more amazing about myself that I had buried or hidden deep down below. Because when when we carry all those burdens, when we feel like our only soul what job in this world is to be a mom. Or are we have no value as a woman in today's society. Or we've only known what it's like to be in the military. We don't know what it's like to be a veteran or are we were a mom and now we're an empty nester and we have no purpose and we were away for now we're divorced and we have no we have no wives or whatever it may be. You can lose yourself and you can lose that definition of what a What a beautiful woman really is. And that's where I come in. And then unconventional. Just sit down have a real talk over a glass of Chardonnay in our closets and that's what we need to do. kind of way I am not I I'm serious. I mean, I have been there I am sat in the closet with a bottle of Chardonnay. My husband's like what do you do and go away? Right I'm in a moment Hmm. And and it's okay. And and I don't I don't have it all figured out. I am not the leading expert in this you do not see me sitting on Oprah couch. I am one of many in this field. I just feel like we need as many voices as possible right now. Exactly. It's it's a layered approach to one I think, I think a lot of what I've seen you say and I've heard you say, we're watching you on social media and listening to you today is, you know, there's a lot of women out there looking for somebody to be an accountability partner for them to lead them to give them to you know, just actually listen to them and hear them and and you're willing to be that person you're willing to take that task on for them if that's what they need, until I told people for the long This time, one of my best friends I worked with her at the church before and, and we would go to the gym and her name was Kim Yates and we would go to the gym and we'd get on the treadmill and she'd go, I go, Okay, how how long do you want to go? And she goes, I want to go for 30 minutes at a two mile pace, he you know, and I'm like, okay, so I punch that all in, and we get going. And about three minutes in, she's like, I'm really not feeling it. And I'm like, sorry, you said you wanted to go for 30 minutes. We're going 30 minutes left, right, left, right, come on, let's go. Let's go, let's go. Let's go, you know, and and we finished the 30 minutes. She'd come to me, I'm like, we're gonna do a five mile an hour pace. You know, this is the incline we're gonna do. We'd get on and about five minutes and I'd say I don't feel like doing it. And she'd go great. Let's go get some chips and salsa. She was great for certain areas of my life fitness was not one of them. And so one of the things I want to encourage women that are listening today is if you've got those friends that are great and holding you accountable in your marriage and your spiritual life and all these other areas, I guarantee you most of the time, it's not the same person that can handle all of those areas for you. So I encourage you to reach out to someone like Lucy, who is great in what she does and in the fitness realm and, and in the mental mental improvement mindset improvement sorry, in the mindset realm as well I went mindset blank on that. You too can be a professional radio show host. But anyway, when you when you are coaching them through the min

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions?” James 2:14 (NIV)   “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.” James 1:22 (NIV)   To be Blessed,   Hear the Word. “My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.” James 1:19-21 (NIV)   Remember the Word. “Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.” James 1:23-24 (NIV)   Obey the Word. “But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.” James 1:25 (NIV)   What: What does this passage say about God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? What: What does this passage say about life or faith? Why: Why did God put this in the Bible? How: How can I put this truth into practice?

This weeks guest is Steve Sims. Do you know anyone that’s worked with Sir Elton John or Elon Musk? Sent people down to see the wreck of the Titanic on the sea bed or closed museums in Florence for a private dinner party and then had Andre Bocelli serenade them while they eat their pasta? Well, you do now. Quoted as “The Real Life Wizard of Oz" by Forbes and Entrepreneur Magazine, Steve Sims is a best selling Author with "BLUEFISHING - the art of making things happen”, sought-after consultant and a speaker at a variety of networks, groups and associations as well as the Pentagon and Harvard – twice!Links: website: https://www.stevedsims.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/stevedsims/ IG: https://www.instagram.com/stevedsims/Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast. Each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started. As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon if you will, your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're going to find this book on kindle amazon and as always on my website, Sam Knickerbocker. comWelcome back to fuel your legacy and today we have an incredible guest. It's cool the more people that I've had on the more notable people that I've been able to have on which is always exciting. So today, we have Steve Sims And he was here in Utah a few months ago speaking at a conference for, for some people who are looking to, to understand what he does, I'm excited to bring it on. Because understanding the ROI of relationships is, I think key and everything and there is so many of the most successful people that I know that I listened to that I associate with, say relationships are the new economy, right? That's the new currency is how well do you know somebody? So, Steve, he's a speaker and author. He's the founder of bluefish, direct founder of boot camp marketing, and it's your coach and real and he's been called so this is the best thing is when people title you as things because the titles other people give you end up being some of the most wonderful ways to market yourself because you just, it's just raw. So he's been called the real-life Wizard of Oz according to Forbes, and Entrepreneur Magazine so that I mean That's a that's quite a glowing compliment to be called The Wizard of Oz. What? What pen brought that on? Where'd you get your start? And what was your childhood like? And why are you doing what you're doing today?Wow. Um, first of all being called the villain like Wizard of Oz is a double-edged sword because let's be blunt, the Wizard of Oz was a fake.You kind of go, Oh, that's very nice. And then you go, Oh crap, and they called me a fake.So I like to take it on its face value that I am the guy that can less little get you through the journey. So I class myself as an educated man. But I don't believe the school had anything to do with that. I left. I left school at the age of 15 and ended up working on my father's construction site. And I didn't have any future didn't have any hopes didn't have any goals. We didn't live in a world of the internet where we were bombarded with what the other half was living with or what they had. So I grew up ignorant. And immune to all of the luxury and stuff like that. But as an entrepreneur, you don't become an entrepreneur, you are an entrepreneur. It's either your left-handed or your right hand is just, it's just one of those things. And I remember growing up, conflicted, disgruntled, dissatisfied, and all of those things that have everyone going, Oh, you've got a DD and oh, you can't focus and you can't concentrate. It wasn't the fact that I couldn't focus I couldn't concentrate. I wasn't being engaged. And nothing was excited me. Nothing was challenging me. And entrepreneurs, we need to be challenged. We come alive. When we're challenged. And as a bricklayer, I was being told this is what you do, and then you grow old and then you die. That was my life. And it didn't make sense to me. I left the building site, and not knowing what I wanted to do, but just know Do it but just knowing firmly that wasn't what it was. I ended up selling cakes on the back of lorries. I ended up being an insurance door to door salesman. And if anyone's ever seen me, can you imagine me knocking on your door an o'clock at night trying to sell you life insurance. It didn't go well. I ended up getting a job in Hong Kong by completely lying on a resume. I lasted 24 hours and I was fired.Now I was just trying anything to get to something that would challenge and excite me. And I found it in the funniest place. I ended up working on the door of a nightclub. And it was a great position. It was a great pedestal for me to watch the world I was able to watch humanity and to see how they handled themselves how they spoke to others how they interacted, you know, like bar staff is some of the best communicators in the world. You know, they'll talk to someone in a business suit, and then I talked to a group of girls are Guys completely differently within a split second you know they are very good at altering the way they communicate with the different people based on a split second assumption of your attitude, the way you dress how which you look out for you, all those kind of things as a doorman no one wants to talk to a doorman because they're there to punch you in the head. You know, no one wants to talk to him. But I was able to watch them and I would stand on the door of nightclubs and go, I want to be that person. I want to be that group. I want to have them as friends. And so then what I started doing was trying to find a way that they would talk to me as a person and not as a dormant and because I knew where all the parties were and all the best events where I started getting extra tickets and going up to my regulars going Hey guys, I know you like a good night. Did you notice a premiere going on on Friday? Are you going? Now we're not we don't know how to get in. Well, let me make a phone call. Maybe it again for viewing I started becoming this fixer. This, this guy that knew. And the only reason I did it was not that I was a social butterfly far from it was because I wanted to give the people I wanted to talk to a reason to talk to me. It was a Trojan horse. If I can talk to you about getting you into a private body, I can talk to you about what makes you successful, how you had things, why you change, and they always say you are the combination of the five people you hang around with. Well, it was fine. I was hanging around with five bikers. So that wasn't going to get me very far in life. So I had to change my circle when I did. It just started is that before you knew it, I went from getting people in the parties to throw in the parties myself to suddenly being associated with some of the biggest events in the world. From fashion weeks to Grammys to Kentucky Derby. Ferrari's Cavalier no classic Elton John's Oscar party, I became associated with the grandest most often Skylab fluent event on a planet, and therefore my clients were those people, all those people should I say? And then I started marketing them and branding their products you know, I know people coming to me going hey, I've got a company that sells lipsticks, you know, how would you do an advert? And I will I don't like your advert because you're marketing to the wrong people. And I suddenly start became a brand and so on for these companies. Two years ago, I got asked, Hey, would you release a book on the rich and famous people you deal with? And I said, Now I'd bet I'd be dead by cocktail hour. So then they came back to me this will okay. Would you buy a book on how fabric Live from London can now be working with Elon Musk and the Pope? And that made sense to me. So we released a book, not thinking it would be successful not put any marketing behind it. It didn't do well in the first couple of months and then it took off in the third and since then, I've been doing podcasts and speaking engagements all over the world. I consult for Entrepreneurs of all levels. I have an online course called Sims distillery that helps people learn how to communicate. And it's just grown and I've become my brand. So, from bricklayer to dealing with the meanest, most affluent people in the world to now being an author, speaker, and coach, it's a very interesting journey.Yeah, I love it. And so funny how different and different people come into their passion, different ways. And some people I had a guest on a little while ago who she found her passion, really through, it was something that it was her passion as at a young age, then she lost sight of it or she was dissuaded from it. And then she circled back to her passion. And I love one of the things you said, Well, actually, it's kind of a kind of both in hand in hand, you don't become an entrepreneur. You either are one of them or not ones, as a movie, and it's okay not to be an audience. corner, sometimes because I work in the entrepreneur world where I'm actively seeking out entrepreneurs. And, and so the assumption is by a lot of people that I just think everybody's an entrepreneur and everybody can do it. And I just want to work with everybody. And the reality is, I don't know what the percentage of entrepreneurs are, but it's not a high percentage of people who are entrepreneurs, there's a high percentage of them. There's a high percentage of people who are not entrepreneurs who liked the security, as the certainty, as the safety of working for an entrepreneur,and that's fine. That's fine. There's you know, we got three grades at the moment. And it's like me moaning at you because of your height. You know, you have no control over your height. Okay. So you either are an entrepreneur or you're not. There's a lot of one trip owners out there, they look at it and think, Oh, it's a sexy life. Yeah, I'm an entrepreneur, but they can't handle the two o'clock in the morning not being able to pay your bills on Friday or the fact that you all out on the front line, an entrepreneur is a guy that jumps off the cliff, and then builds a parachute on the way down. And there are phenomenal intrapreneurs I think every entre, we had a quick discussion on this before we went live. A good entrepreneur needs to surround himself with phenomenal intrapreneurs These are the people the love that life until the last bit where you're your next on the line, and that's fine. I'm surrounded by phenomenal intrapreneurs that are creative, driven, push it and help support me be on the front line. So I believe there are great entrepreneurs, but the one tripping is not too flaky and they fall by the wayside very quickly. And so how would you help somebody if they're sitting there listening to this and they're not sure who they are, what where they fall in that maybe just because of lack of experience, lack of Discovery a lot of people who listen to this they're their stay at home moms are people who have been basically sacrificed their life for for the love of their children or for other people. And so they've never really gained the experience or tried out the different positions, you could say. How would you help them kind of look at their life and say, Well, what about me? Where would I fit in these categories? Well, first of all, as an entrepreneur, you are mich broke, rich, broke, broke, rich, rich, rich, broke rich. It's a Helter Skelter over life. I don't think any entrepreneur, given the vision chart of how they're going to be over the next few years, whatever, optionally go, Oh, yeah, I like that. Because entrepreneurs will get laughed at spat at ridiculed Elon Musk musk. He said it to me ages ago. He said they laugh at you before they applaud. Now, if you're not the person that can stand being hated, ridiculed and laughed at the maybe you should be an on an entrepreneur. If you don't care, and you want to be challenged, maybe you're an entrepreneur. But it does come down to that final line of are you willing to take it on the shoulders, finances, because a lot of the times we've lost, we've lost as entrepreneurs money, and we've got it, we're up against it. And then all of a sudden, at like five o'clock on Friday, we're going to pay payroll, and we're running all of our credit cards to do that. We've all been through it. The life of an entrepreneur is not sexy. It's not something we chose is something we are.I love that I think that's so beautifully put. And if you go back and listen to it, and just ask yourself, hey, where do I fit, you know, it's okay. You might be as creative as, as eager to create in your life, different things, but maybe you don't have the wherewithal to have people ridicule us. That's something that I, I think I always had inside of me. But it for me, it took a while to expose that because of the social programming, that you should care about what other people think it took me a while to ultimately say no, I like in my heart. I don't care what you think about me. I'm going to do, what I feel confident doing and what I want to do, regardless of whether you think it's a good idea, anybody, right?Yeah, it gets really, it's very hard to run when you got someone sitting on your shoulders. And so careful about what you do, care about what you solve, care about what you do, but don't care about someone's naysaying opinion. you'll usually find that the person sitting in the corner going, Oh, look at Oh, he can't all watch it. That person's never going to be your client and let's be blunt, never amount to anything. Because people like to sit in the corner and tell you you can't do something because they don't want you proven the diamond Quit to do it themselves.Yeah, that is something that I completely agree with. And I tell people that I work with often had one, one woman a few months back who had asked me, and well, because she was thinking about working with me, she said, Well, I don't want to waste your time. And I saw her Look, I don't let people waste my time. Yeah,yeah, not exactly.twice on me. And if you rescheduled twice, you go in the hopper of people I might call once every six months. It's just not committed to their future yet, but you may be in the future like I don't allow people to waste my time. That's not how this game works. So I love that. So moving forward, something else that you said that I think people needs to understand. And I want to add some specificity here because this is I believe, key in this phrase, especially if you're listening to Gary Vaynerchuk. Or there's a lot of people I think Gary Vee is probably the highest one that says as often it's just you have to add value, you have to add value, you have to add value to others. People before you ask for value in return. And I think that that's true. to a point, right, just adding value, there's a lot of ways to add value in people's lives, right toilet papers valuable. Somebody guiding you a Walmarts valuable like there's a lot of value that you could add. But what love what you did, you added value with the intention that the value add was intentional too, as you said, a Trojan horse to get something out of it not that you expected or that you are going to do a tit for tat type expectation of something out of it. But you are very intentional with how you are adding value to whom you are adding value so that you could get around certain individuals. And please speak to that as to why that's so important that the intentional adding value rather than just random value addingyou got to be laser focus today because we're in a world of mass distraction. So you've got to be Short and sharp to the point while creating something that benefits you as well. Now, I agree with you about you've got to add value. I also agree with you that there are multiple different levels of value. But you've got to go to the value that gets as close as it possibly can to the core of the individual. So, you know, I've worked with very affluent people, very powerful people. Not always very famous people. So you can go to these people and you can say, Hey, I know you don't know me. Get that out of the way. That's always a good one to get out of the room straight away. I know we haven't met I know we haven't been introduced, but there's something that I would like to do with you. But before we get into that, I'm aware that you support this charity. I'm aware that you have got a new book coming out. I am aware that you're promoting your media brand. I'm aware that I've got an idea after looking over this, how I can help you get more reach, get more input, get more donations to get better. Marketing getting better, and show that you've paid attention to? Okay? You may well turn around and go all this and they may turn around and go, Well, actually, we've got a marketing team that just actually said that to me. And I've said about what and they've come back to me and they've gone, hey, we've done now I've gone right. That's, that's brilliant. But it shows that you focus and As the old saying goes, they won't care until you show you care. Now, in that conversation, if you dissect what I've just said, I've got out of the room that you don't know me. And when I say you don't know me, you may know my name. You don't know my credibility. You don't know my reputation and your right. reputation and credibility in today's counts. Okay, so I've got that you don't know me. You don't know me, you know my name, but you don't know me. I've also made it clear that I want something from you. If I say to you, I need a tip. 10 bucks. But before we discuss that I want to talk to you about you're going to know straight off the bat I need 10 bucks. So I like to get it out of the way that hey, I need something from you. I've got something I want us to do. But before we get into that, and then you go into the reason why you need to keep me in the conversation because I'm here to benefit you. If you go in with that, they know you need something. Why do they know that? Because you told him quite bluntly, I need something. So there's no, there's no sitting there going, what is this guy after? I've just told you I want something. And she allows the person and relaxes easy-going, Oh, well, he wants somebody to bang on a minute. He's bringing something to me first. And that is a good one to get out of it. So that's how I enter into every conversation, whether it be dealing with the Vatican, whether it be dealing with Richard Branson, I always say hey, I need something but before we get into that, I know you're doing XYZ and go into that route. I love that I love this to me. It's a simple four-step process.Making every conversation intro sample where you're building rapport credibility, and you're building that now. Don't fall on yours. And don't, don't be scared to fall on your face say get as big of the nose as possible. But on the other hand, do your research, right everythingis important.Yeah, every client that I meet with, I have them send out a fill out a form where I get all their social media links so that when I'm sitting down with them, before I meet with them, then I know what things we have in common, what things I can support them with and what things I can't, the things that I can't support them with, I'm probably not going to bring up in our conversation, because that would be like shooting yourself in the foot. To understand who you're talking to understand where you can add value. Don't take on somebody that you can't add value to just because you want to be around them. Be clear and make connections where possible. And too many people want to be the everyman everything guy It's just not. You're not supposed to be the everything guy. You're supposed to be good at what you do. Oh for me, you know, I've got a brilliant gardener that I speak to absolutely every single week about my garden, but I'm not going to have him do my taxes. It's not a problem to turn around and think this person is good for that, but not good for that. Yeah, exactly. I love it. So what would you say? When did you because I know it's a journey. And we kind of talked about this, but what was there an exact moment where the light bulb clicked. You're like, Man, this is what I want my legacy to be.Oh, I don't know if I even know what my legacy to be. And I have heard I've heard that question come up a few times before but I'm kind of in the fight and on the journey and enjoying the view. And I haven't. I have some very basic principles. I want to be crystal clear. I want to be in possible to be misunderstood. And I don't want people to be confused. Now, if that ends up being my legacy or ends up being sketched on my tombstone, I'm happy about that. But there's a lot of people that plan for things. And for a lot of people, they need to plan. But I plan to seconds after I've jumped off the step, and I find that I only become good when I get going. And everything that I have ever started a shit. I know the first time I do anything, the first time I do an interview, the first time I did a podcast, the first time I wrote a pushbike The first time I tried to do a business meeting, every single one of them was rubbish. But you need that rubbish to be yet golden. And I have learned that so if I wake up one morning and go, I'm going to do a podcast I'll do a podcast. It'll have a crappy already. We do have a bad signal, it has a terrible microphone. Everything I try I try differently. And so legacy wise, I don't know if I found my thing yet. I just know what I found is an elf. And I'm going to promote a good friend of mine called Joe polish. He openly talks about elf businesses easy, lucrative and fun. And if what you do can be those three things, those three things, keep doing it. I have had lucrative businesses. I've had lucrative projects, but they've been stressful and they ain't been fun. They made me a lot of money and I bought a new motorbike and I've had great fun doing about great finances doing them, but they ain't been fun. So I now try to find elf projects and elf businesses. And I would say now for the past three or four years with my brand coming out of bluefish did I'm in an elf momentum at the moment and I'm enjoying it. Where is it going? I don't know. But as long as itself I'm stayingwith it. Awesome. I love that I never heard that acronym but I think I will start asking myself what in my life is falls in that category? And what is health? Yeah, that stuff that doesn't for sure.Absolutely. Joe polish. You said some very intelligent things. He's also said some very stupid things because he's a weird individual. But yeah, he's given me some incredible nuggets which have helped my life.That's awesome. So now if you were to say there was like one story or one point in time where you decided to stop caring about naysayers? What was that one, that one moment where you're like, Okay, I just, I just don't care? Or I'm doing my thing.I listened to the worst person in the world and that was myself. And I went through a very, very dark month. My life I had been I was about eight years into being the man that can about eight years, I had some of the richest clients royalty caps in the industry, you know real power players around the world as clients send me hundreds of thousands of dollars so I just a night out or weekend away. And I woke up one day and I thought to myself, Oh my god, you know, I've got to change. I don't know why, but I just thought I had to. So I took all my earrings out and I covered my tattoos by wearing long shirts and you know, I thought to myself, Oh, I have to be a bit more pronounced. Now. I have to be a little bit more British. You know, just everything about me changed. I started wearing suits now anyone that knows me knows I'm on two wheels forever. And I bought a car. I bought a vintage Ferrari to try and impress you. I bought a $50,000 odham up watch. I went to Donna Monaco, and I throw a kickoff party in my suit with my Ferrari with my watch. And I came home, and I got the photographs of that event. And I realized this was the first event in my life that I hadn't shown up to this avatar of who I wanted to be had this pretend Steve Sims. And it depressed me and I got drunk and I was drunk for about three days. I didn't know what had happened and I realized that I had listened to all my subconscious all my inadequacies, all of my self-doubt. And I had become this shield, this persona, this alters ego. And luckily it was my wife that said, Look, people don't buy the suit and the car they've been buying this you for years, they've been sending you money as this quirky guy, the comm spell and anyone that's ever got an email from me knows I can't spell but it didn't stop me write a book. Don't focus on your inadequacies. Don't focus on your weaknesses. Because you end up with incredibly focused, targeted weaknesses. They don't get any better focus on your unicorn. So I realized that I sold the car immediately. I got rid of the suits. Funnily enough, this was in the late 90s. I wanted to keep the suits because they were nice suits. I put them in my cupboard. And it was about three years ago in Los Angeles, I gave them away to goodwill, and I'd never worn them. never worn them since that day, because I felt they were toxic. No, I like putting on a nice suit. But it was never those suits. He ended up going and buying different suits. So that was my dark time when I listened to my doubt, and my inadequacies, and since then it's a case of Hey, this is me. Now I've got an I know you're in Utah, but as far as La is concerned, it's a bit chilly and I've got off No shirt on, but there's a black t-shirt underneath and that's where I'm showing up as me every single day. If you don't like it, we can part ways and we'll all be fine but I am never going to use a single second of effort to be somebody I'm notso that was my tongue fineyeah i think that's often the hardest person to get hundred silence right you can get to the point where you tell everybody else to go screw themselves but being able to tell yourself to go screw yourself as you talk and lean into your uncertainties lean into your your your fears and you say look, I'm going for it regardless that sometimes it's the hardest thing to master as far as like financially going from the different areas. I mean, going from a bar bouncer having lost your job in different areas. How did you spend, how did you make that transition from from employment into employer or entrepreneur financially because I mean, you alluded to this to at the beginning where you're rich, you're broke, you're rich, you're broke, you're rich, broke, broke, broke, broke, broke rich. Like I understand that happens. And I think that's one of the bigger fears of people who are thinking about making the jump. And so how did you level that? How do you handle it with your wife? I don't know if you have kids, but like, how did you make that? an okay thing for them.I have to stop my bank account from becoming my barometer to react. And it took many years, but the thing that would happen was I would have a ton of cash in the bank, and I'd be like, oh, I don't need a try. I got loads of money. And the money goes quickly, especially when you've got a nice house and you know, you got payments and I do have kids, I have private schooling and before you know it that starts whittling down fast. And then you go crap, I got no money, and then you go and get into stressful deals and projects that you shouldn't have got into but you have done now because of the checkbook. So you're going from candlelight, you know, fire to beach fire to the beach. And it's, it's bad. And as I say, I was using my bank account to dictate me. And it was the tail that wags the dog. The smartest thing that happened to me was when I suddenly started realizing that I was pathetic at certain things, and an entrepreneur wants to be great at everything. The Smart entrepreneur realizes, you know, we're not, we're great at one or two things, but the rest of it, we may be adequate, or maybe really bad at, okay. So as an entrepreneur, I realized that my wife was detail-oriented, she would come to me and she'd be like, Well, look, I've looked at the spreadsheet, and I'm like, Well, I don't want to look at spreadsheets was the bottom line. Because that's how I vision things. So then we realized that I can steer the car, you know, I can be the big powerful engine that can make it go fast. But I need other people to help me. I need a good set of tires, I need a good set of brakes. I need a good steamer, you know, and I suddenly started finding those people. And I can go, Hey, we need to send this person a great brochure. Get someone to design the brochure, hey, record what you think will be great. And then get someone to write the copy to translate your vision into what someone else can meet. So, Claire, my wife became good at managing and handling me. And she was like, what, okay, and so what we came up with, we came up with the 10 grand credit card. Okay, which started in my late 30s, maybe 39. Oh, yeah, realtor. I hadn't quite hit 40 at the time. But she said, okay, you're gonna have three credit cards, because no matter where you travel in the world, Sometimes, you know, something can happen to a credit card, and it screws and or, you know, they try to send you a verification code. But of course, you're in a foreign country, so you're not getting it, you know. So we have three credit cards. And she said each one of those credit cards has got 10 grand because no matter where you are on a planet, if you've got 10 grand, you can get a couple of hotel nights and you can get a flight out of it. Or you can pay a hospital bill, you know, 10 grand is a great instant support number. Okay, so she said you got three credit cards for 10 grand,you add a bank account, and she kicked me out of the bank account, I could not go and see how much money I had in there. Now, this is what happens. You stop reacting to your tail. You start looking at someone and going okay, is this a project I want to accept? Is this a client I want to be doing and in focusing on the client and not focusing on the checkbook. You get to accept deals that make sense and don't motivate your bottom line. You start we at you reacting with your stomach in your head and not with your with the fear of how much money's in the bank. You take better deals. And when you take those better deals, you start solving the problems that the client has. And then he starts reaffirming the knock-on effect by stop looking at the bank account was monumental to me. And my wife would just say to me, oh, how's it going? What's your pipeline? Like? And she would talk to me in my language, you know, are you busy at the moment? Well, things are starting to get you to get a bit quiet. Oh, well, maybe there are some opportunities for you to use that time, which was code for the bank account that needs replenishing. But she wouldn't tell me that because then I don't get the wrong kind of deals. So a good entrepreneur needs good support around them. If you are good at designing things but crapper doing invoices and the first time I realized how bad I was at doing an invoice was when I undercharged someone by 10 grand. And I had to pay 10 grand for that trip. Okay, now, do I go to the client and go, Oh, I made a mistake? No, I just paid 10 grand to learn the course, that I should never do invoicing again. And that was the last time I ever did an invoice. I've never done an invoice soon. I have no idea how to get into QuickBooks. I still don't know the potent passcode to get into my bank account. I don't need to it's not what I specialize that it's not my unicorn.Oh, that's so cool. I've talked to one other person who was very similar. He did door to door sales. And he just said Look, when when I decided that I want to stop looking at my bank account and just as long as I'm making more transactions or whatever, I'm helping more people than everybody else. I know I'm making more than anybody else. And that's got to be enough. So Yeah, there's value in that for sure. So how could we if we wanted to get connected with you, or if we had a business that we want to do to help us with? How would we get in touch with you? How do we get in touch with your, your, your book? Your Sam, sorry, your sim distillery, how do we get in touch with some of these tools to help usgrow? What we did an online course that should give you the basics called Simmons distillery.com. There's one aim in Sims. Sims distillery.com is my 16 part course that hopefully will help you get the first steps if you don't want to jump into their bluefish in the art of making things happen, should give you permission to fail and dream bigger. If you want to get hold of me. I'm not hard. I'm at Steve de sims.com. But you can also find me on Instagram, Facebook, all of these places. We've even got a free Facebook community called an entrepreneur's advantage with Steve Sims. So there are loads of ways you can reach out to me if you feel as though you want me to answer help with your company. That's nice. But I would suggest you go through those other ways. First you look at the book, do that do your homework first, you may find by doing that, you actually discover other questions that you would have come up with other you come up with, you wouldn't come up with a view to jumped into me straight away, and I want you to be as productive, productive and as powerful as possible. So it's usually best to get the book, get the seems to Sylvie? And then can I get used to my mentality, you may find, I'm not your best choice, I may not be the best person and only you are going to decide that but you're not going to know they should go through the first steps.That is so true. I'm redoing a training system for a lot of my business partners and our leaders. We're talking about what should be in there. It's like it's all in there. If they come and ask me a question before they've done their research or something and I don't even know what they don't know. But I do know what I've already put out there so they haven't taken it down. of the free content that's already there. I like there's not a lot we can do for them. And so I love that you said it that way. Agree, go do those, those things that he's already prepared for you and if you like him, then reach out and get and get to know him a little bit better. So we're at the pretty much at the end here, but I have two more sections here. So the last one is a legacy on rap. Sorry, the first one is a legacy on rapid-fire. So I'm gonna ask you five questions, looking for one sentence answers to go through these and just kind of fast, fast fast. Are you ready for this?I'm ready.Okay. So what do you believe is holding you back from reaching the next level of your legacy today?dream bigger, but I never want to stop dreaming people hold themselves by not dreaming big enough. And as far as I'm concerned, the bigger the dream, the bigger the achievement.Agree. Awesome. So what next one is what is the hardest thing you've ever accomplished?What the story I told you getting over me You can be your biggest advocate you can be your biggest success your biggest asset but sometimes you can be your, your largest devil and your biggest delta. So try and kick that little monkey off your shoulder.Awesome. And then what do you think your greatest success to this point in your life has been?No carry? I have no care about you laughing at me when I fall over. Just stick around to see me get up again.Amen to that. And what would you say is one secret the wave has contributed most to your success.My dad is probably one of the biggest on educated men on the planet. big thick Irish bricklayer fella. And I remember as a kid, he put his hand on my shoulder one day, for no reason wasn't even looking at me. We were just walking down the street. And he said to me, son, no one ever drowned by falling in the water. They drowned by staying there. Now at the age of 14, I thought I'd swallow the fortune cookie or something I couldn't understand where the bloody hell this came from. But you know that is often stuck with me and now and then I fall over quite often and I go, right. It's my decision whether when I stay here and drown, or I get up so I would give him that credit.Awesome. And what are two or three books that you'd recommend to the fuel your legacy audienceblue fishing, the art of making things happen by me Steve Sims obvious one, Dr. Zeus because I find that they got a lot of stuff in there that people don't realize how powerful anything by Jay Abraham because all of his methodology and style, critique sales techniques from the 80s are actually more powerful and impactful today. And if I can give you the fourth one, anything that allows you to dream, anything that's kind of like science fiction, espionage, spy novels, john Grisham, anything that makes you kind of dream in your head That's good because the difference between us an AI is AI can't dream, create an action act, it can only deliver what you asked for. So start meeting things that make you dream and take you to a world beyond your imagination.That's so interesting. I've never heard anybody put it that way, the difference between us and AI because that's a, if you don't follow the technology that's coming up quick, big difference, like AI is going to be able to replace a large percentage of what humans are currently doing. And the question is, but what do we do with all that free time as you're right asked you an It looks like you have a little bit of free time. What are you going to do with that? And that's a real question to be asked. Millions of people are being put out of jobs daily, across the world because of artificial intelligence or some form of robotics. And if you're not thinking how can I then go create more value for the world and give back then you're going to be sitting there doing nothing? pretty quick.A great, greatyeah. So here's the last one. Question. It's my favorite question. I excited to hear your answer. I don't know what it's going to be. But we're going to pretend that you've died that you're dead. Okay. 210 But okay, no, no, it's 200 years from now, six generations from now. So your great, great, great, great, great-grandchildren are sitting around a table, and you have the opportunity to kind of listen in to the conversation that they're having about you, your life and your legacy. What would you want your great great great, great-grandchildren to be saying about you? 200 years from now.He lived by his standards and not others.Simple as that simple as that.And it doesn't need to be any more complicated. I love it. Thank you so much for your time, Steve. I'm just grateful and honored to have you here on the show. And if there's ever anything I can return the favor to you. I'd love to do so. Thanks. And love to if you ever back in Utah. I love to meet up with you.Hold to a panel. Thank you.Yep, no problem. We'll catch you guys next time on fuel your legacy.Thanks for joining us. What you heard today resonates with you please like, comment and share on social media tag me and if you do give me a shout out I'll give you a shout out on the next episode. Thanks to all those who've left a review. It helps spread the message of what it takes to build a legacy that lasts and we'll catch you next time on fuel your legacy.Connect more with your host Samuel Knickerbocker at:https://www.facebook.com/ssknickerbocker/?ref=profile_intro_cardhttps://www.instagram.com/ssknickerbocker/https://howmoneyworks.com/samuelknickerbockerIf this resonates with you and you would like to learn more please LIKE, COMMENT, & SHARE————————————————————————————————————Click The Link Bellow To Join My Legacy Builders Mastermindhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/254031831967014/Click here to check out my webinar as well!————————————————————————————————————Want to regain your financial confidence and begin building your legacy?In this ebook you will learn:- The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy- Clarify you “why”- Create Daily Action Steps To Launch ForwardWant Sam’s FREE E-BOOK?Claim your access here! >>> Fuel Your Legacy: The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy————————————————————————————————————

– Adam Bryan And in this, the first time we've talked publicly about this, because this gets a really people get shamed. This is this is a really black mark on many families. And they get kicked out of churches, they get kicked out of neighborhoods, they get kicked out of families where the grandparents or the parents will say, you know, how can you do that to a child? How can you consider that and will kick people out of families in shame?   - Allie Bryan I mean, shame, the biggest.   INTRO   Today’s conversation is a complex one.  We are going to dive into the story of Adam and Allie and the little girl they adopted from Uganda.  Adam and Allie loved their daughter and brought her over to be a part of their family.  She lived with them for three years and is not no longer in their home.  On this episode of the Handle with Care podcast, we are giving voice to a dimension of adoption that is difficult to talk about, often layered with a lot of emotion.  Even the term for what we are discussing can feel charged.   – Liesel Mertes   Is the term. So some things that I encounter failed adoption dissolved. You know, this has been an adoption dissolution.   - Allie Bryan Yeah. This has been disrupted or dissolved adoption. Okay. Those were the terms that like our lawyer used. Right. Okay.   - Liesel Mertes So that was only because I was like, man, even the term failed adoption, you know, all kinds of like connotation. Right.   - Liesel Mertes To how you feel and what terms you guys like to use. I say dissolves. Okay. Yeah. Dissolved adoption. Feel like it's the calmest word.   - Adam Bryan I don't really identify. I like I don't really even news. Yeah. We had an adoption and we adopted girl. We've transitioned her. I don't really even know because I'm afraid of them. I just don't know.   - Liesel Mertes Doesn't feel as maybe emotionally freighted in the same way.   This discussion could feel charged for you, the listener.  I had my own emotional journey in preparing for the interview.  It touches on pain and disappointment and vulnerability.  When Adam first approached me last year, it was after listening to prior episodes that talked about adoption.  He wondered if I had ever talked with a family whose adoption had dissolved.  As we talked, I heard the landscape of pain and isolation that is a part of dissolved adoptions.    Whether or not you agree with Adam and Allie’s choice, I believe it is important to hear their journey, the heartache and judgement and love that is embedded in their story.  It is important to hear because we all bear complex stories…and it is important to hear because their story will help you empathize more with anyone who is on the adoption journey.   You will also hear how faith in God is deeply embedded in their journey.  Faith is an essential grounding point for many people as they experience disruptive life events.    If you aren’t from a similar background of faith, this perspective might seem foreign or jarring.  If that is the case, I invite you to just listen with an open curiosity, embracing the insights that are for you and letting the aspects that don’t apply to simply sit by the wayside.    As we begin, I want to remind listeners of our sponsors.  Are you a small business owner?  An entrepreneur?  Growing your business van be hard, but benefits don’t have to be.  Let FullStack PEO take care of your people and your benefits plan so you can get back to business.    We are also sponsored by Handle with Care consulting, through workshops, conferences, and keynotes, we empower your people to respond with empathy and compassion when it matters most.    Let me begin by telling you a little bit about Adam and Allie.  I went to high school with Adam.  He was two years ahead of me and, in my mind, endlessly cool because he drove a Jeep.    Allie grew up moving all around the US; her dad was in the Navy.  She and Adam still love traveling together.  Allie also sells things on Facebook Marketplace.    – Adam Bryan She'll post stuff. And I'm like, wait, I'm using that. Well, no one else. You I use it. One doesn't wait.   - Adam Bryan Well, I like your toothbrush, right? Right. I think you're getting really kind, honey. You're getting really good at selling everyone else's stuff but your own.   I'm really nervous.   She's really good. So you're on to it through.   - Liesel Mertes Did you have three children?   - Allie Bryan Yes. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What are their ages and what kinds of things do you most enjoy doing around town as a family?   - Adam Bryan So the ages the youngest is four. Our middle is eight and our oldest is 10. OK.   - Allie Bryan All of their birthdays in April?   No, no, it wasn't planned. It's just remarkable. Consistent, so. Right.   - Allie Bryan So they're all gonna be switching here soon. I think we've gotten like I don't really know if we have anything.   - Adam Bryan I enjoy family bike rides. The 4 year old has a little trailer bike. And so we. But not in the winter because it's Indiana. We do enjoy that as a family.   Adam grew up with just one sister and was always interested in adopting, Allie wasn’t so sure.  But that changed when their boys were three and one.    - Allie Bryan I never wanted to adopt. My sister always wanted to. And I mean, we'd talk about it all the time growing up. And it never like, oh, I was about like. Good for you.   - Allie Bryan And I was rocking. Our youngest at the time, and it just hit me of this. I think we're supposed to adopt and like now, which was so it was not me. I had never wanted to never considered any of it and came downstairs and told Adam and he was like, okay, that be great. Yeah.   - Allie Bryan Maybe in like a couple years, you know, and like, no now   - Adam Bryan or in like 10 years. Right.   - Allie Bryan And so it started on a process of really trying to figure out from what country do we do it stateside, do it, you know, all the things. And it took a couple months for us to get on the same page.   But, through a process of discernment and listening, they did get on the same page.  The next question was logistical considerations, domestic or international?      - Adam Bryan So we were really open to whatever the Lord had at the time, but   - Allie Bryan We had our we had savings and we we're like, well, let's get our home study done. And then as the Lord opens the door, we'll just keep moving forward.   - Allie Bryan It was one of those.   - Adam Bryan It was all of our savings rate. And so was not Dave Ramsey. It was not.   - Allie Bryan And so every next step, we. It was that we'll do your money to move forward. And there always was. And the Lord provided all the money for it. Like we didn't because we didn't want to go into debt for it. Minute like he just provided.   There are also a lot of logistics to setting up a home study.   - Adam Bryan I mean, basically, once they come through your life, I mean, you're getting fingerprinted and blood work and I don't know. Yeah. Just everything. I mean, they comb through everything your life. They come to your house, they meet with your kids, they interview people. You have to send in paperwork from other families that verify that you're good parents. They're so pretty involved. Yeah.   - Adam Bryan Really, it's a very in-depth and involved process. I mean, the homestay, the paperwork that we took over, I mean, it was a stack of paper, you know, an inch or two thick of our whole life.   Adam and Allie ended up deciding to adopt from Uganda.  Allie’s sister was living in country with her country, she could help on the ground and make organic connections.    - Adam Bryan And so there's a huge need over there.     Right.   - Allie Bryan And so we ended up getting our home study done. And it was, okay, let's get over there and see what connections we can get. Like, let's see,   - Allie Bryan Because you have to find a baby home and, you know, like there's an a lawyer. Like there's all these things that because we were doing it independently. So not with the adoption agency,   - Adam Bryan We tried going through adoption agencies. But it's it's interesting because certain agencies are only work with certain countries and there's certain restrictions. And so it's not it's not really easy. And there's a lot of hoops to jump through. Just even with an agency. And so this was an opportunity   - Adam Bryan And we were planning to go to visit them. We had the home study and you have to claim a country or whatever in the home study. And so we said, well, let's just put Uganda since we're going. We'll see what happens. In even talking with the agency we talked with to do the home study. He said you can change it later if you want to. So we just kind of started with that.   They get to Uganda and travel out to visit Allie’s sister.  Home study in hand, they meet with the director of the baby home.    - Adam Bryan And then the next day she called us.   - Allie Bryan She texted and said, I think I have a match for you. Which is a super weird text again. Okay. And so we made a scheduled time to go over to the baby home the next day and we met her. And so we have some precious video of getting to meet her.   - Adam Bryan And it was also really weird.   - Allie Bryan Yeah, it's you don't really prepare for that.   - Allie Bryan And then having to go back to my sister's house and we had to sit in on the conversation of how do you even make this decision?   - Adam Bryan It's like picking out a puppy at the pound. Except it's a human right. Right. How do you know? Guide for this.   - Adam Bryan There is no guidebook for this. How do you say yes or how do you say no? Well, here's this child. She fits. You know, she was of age and we wanted a little girl and this or that. Like, how do you say no? How do you say how do you how do you do this?   - Adam Bryan How do you make this decision?   After prayer and consideration, Adam and Allie decide to move forward.  There was still a lot of paperwork, attorneys on the ground in Uganda.  But everything was moving forward quickly,   - Liesel Mertes So you you go. You return is the next step that you go again and bring your daughter home?   - Allie Bryan Yeah. So we went over and met her in September. And so when we came home, it was that goal. OK, we have to get there's still a good amount. So at that point, we had investigations going on over there making sure everything was legitimate.   - Adam Bryan And you had to we had to pay for ads to find if any other, Is this any other family? What her have a claim. And so we had to go through that. We had to. So the attorney and newspaper are in all of this stuff. So there's all this stuff. We're funding that's happening. And then we get a call that a court date is in February and March.   - Liesel Mertes How were you learning or preparing?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, right on your own.   - Allie Bryan So there was a really at the time, a really big independent adoption group for Uganda, which was super helpful because we were having to do all of it. So is a lot of updates of like paperwork in this and certain judges how long they take it. You know, you you just kind of start to network a lot through there. And that was really helpful. But I would say that's that was the main support.   There were also some resources stateside for families that were doing independent adoptions.    - Allie Bryan So some of the classes or most the classes were online. And I remember one of them, it was it was preparing us to be white parents with a little African baby in it being a conspicuous ratably, which is, yes, that is a good thing to recognize and to.   - Allie Bryan But it, “A” for effort. What I would say. It just doesn't prepare you right. For real life of having an adopted daughter from another country.   - Adam Bryan And that's kind of like premarital counseling, right? You don't know what you write. You go through premarital counseling, but you have no idea. No. Right. It's kind of the same thing. Like they're telling you. But you have no frame of reference for this. You have no grasp of this. And so really, there wasn't we didn't find it very helpful.   - Liesel Mertes And especially, you know, when you say that I considered it like you are receiving a person right now is just a child. Right. Right. Yes. A entity of this age. Right. This is a this is a personality. This is a set of experiences. Good, bad, traumatic.   Right. You. Yeah.   - Adam Bryan Well, yeah. And there may be other agencies that do a better job with international culture and things. But we didn't we didn't receive that. We didn't get that. So. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And I imagine even trauma. I'm right now. Right. My trauma is, you know, a different dimension.   Allie and Adam returned in February.    - Allie Bryan And so we showed up in February and went to the baby home and they handed her to us. And it was literally like, all right. Like, do we need to sign anything? We're sorry.   - Adam Bryan They just handed to us and we just walked out. Had a nine month onesie on. She was almost two. And she had like this dish towel as a diaper like tight around her. And that was it. Like, we just walked out with her. Are you sure you sign it? No, you're good. Go ahead.   Allie needed to stay behind in country for some additional weeks before their daughter could come to the US.    - Liesel Mertes So, Allie, you guys are in a foreign country in in Kampala. I've, I've been there, I can picture the streets and things like that. And you actually are practiced at parenting a child, right? This age and stage. But what are you finding that you're like, oh, this is so familiar. And what are you finding? Oh, wow, this is different.   - Allie Bryan Yeah, I anticipated more of different cause there was just a lot, you know, I. I walked in to the situation. So naive. And I was telling I think Adam a while ago, like I I literally thought within a week she was going to start saying, Mama, like in my head, like, I really.   - Allie Bryan And then within because she's two, surely.   - Adam Bryan And everyone had said we had like physical therapists look at her and like developmental therapists like over there.   - Adam Bryan And it was we had there's, there's like Australian and British in Scandinavia right over there. And so they would look and say, well, I'm a I'm a therapist of this, this and this. Oh, she'll be great. Just give her some love. In a few months, she'll be talking and walking in all this. It'll be great. She's fine.   - Allie Bryan So that's our expectation. And then the more he was with us for the first ten days, because he had to be at court and then he flew back to be with the boys and work. And so I was with so I was staying in Jinja mainly, which is where my sister lived. And but it was still extremely lonely with out him.   - Allie Bryan And I have this daughter that I don't know. And there's no connection. There's no bond. And yet there's that high stress of you have to bond and no one else, you know. So for two months being over there, it no one else was really supposed to hold her, feed her, any of that kind of stuff. And so it was just a high stress not knowing her. I don't know what makes her tick. I don't know what she's thinking to she even understand everything I'm saying.   - Liesel Mertes It's just very, you know, totalizing.     Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah. No.   - Allie Bryan Yeah. And she was she was also developmentally. She could sit. But if she fell over, she couldn't get herself back up. She couldn't even go on all fours. You know, and she's almost two. And so it was just the rearranging of expectations. And you know, realizing, oh my gosh, this is this is gonna be a lot different than what all the training on the computer, you know, tried to teach us.   Right.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Well, I imagine then there is the next unfolding chapter of bringing her on to integrate with your other two children. Yes. What? What did that look like?   - Allie Bryan That looked like me taping masking tape around her chair with enough buffer. Was she eight so the kids wouldn't get her mother? That was literally that that became our world of.   - Adam Bryan They just wanted to love her and smother her. And that's great. But it's overwhelming. Yeah. And so, you know,   - Liesel Mertes in the midst of an entire context. Right.   - Adam Bryan So she was just and and we had been trained on that. Like there's gonna be, you know, different smells and sights and sounds like we get it. Yeah. So look, boys, you have to stay as far away from her.   - Allie Bryan I have a picture of them standing outside of the tape and her sitting at her chair eating so that she wouldn't be triggered if anyone got close to her food because it was stolen often at the baby home. She because that was that was a big trigger for her thinking her food was gonna be.   - Adam Bryan Which is pretty typical. Right. And that was expected.   - Allie Bryan So it was just a lot of a lot of her screaming and being triggered and the kids not understanding why and trying to explain that to them. And it was it was just very high emotion all the time.   - Allie Bryan So you. Yeah. And feeling completely ill-equipped. Right. And it was. And she was non-verbal, too. You know, like it was there were just so many things that felt stacked against us.   Their daughter’s physical and developmental needs also required a lot of attention.  She was eligible for Frist Steps, an Indiana program that provides assistance to children with delays.  Each week, she had speech therapy, developmental therapy, and physical therapy.    Her progress was sporadic, all of the board.  The therapists were confused as months became yeasrs.  Why wasn’t she progressing?  MRIs didn’t yield anything definitive.    - Adam Bryan Yeah, it was really, really difficult because at this stage she's consuming all of our financial resources are physical or emotional or mental. Everything. We are pouring everything into her and everyone else. The children are getting, you know, 5 percent and we're barely even giving each other anything because we're so exhausted and worn out. She's getting everything.   And there's no I remember with with one of the a group with the therapist. One of the last meetings was, you know, we went through everything again.   - Adam Bryan They said, do you have any questions or concerns? And I said, yeah. There's just no trajectory upward. And they're like, yeah, we we were concerned about that, too. I said, what's the plan? I don't know. I guess we'll just keep doing what we're doing. Yeah, well, that doesn't sound like a really good plan. Clearly, something's not working. This has been two years now. And yeah.   In the midst of these diagnosis, there was a whole swirling emotional world of anxiety and shame.    - Allie Bryan I was becoming very depressed. I was starting to have a lot of anxiety. And then what you call secondary trauma from living in an in a place with someone that has trauma. And, you know, I was to the point, of course, she was also still in diapers. We couldn't seem to get her potty train. And whenever I would change her diapers, I would start having a panic attack.   - Allie Bryan And that was one of the it was it happened a lot. But there was one point we'd had her for three years. And I'm having a panic attack while changing her diaper. She's watching me. And my oldest son comes behind me and it's comforting, comforting me saying like, it's okay, mommy, it'll be okay. And that's for me in my heart when it clicked. This is not healthy for anyone. It's not healthy for her to watch her mom have a panic attack while taking care of her. It's not okay that my son is trying to comfort me in this sense, and it's happening all the time.   - Allie Bryan I was a hot mess and was I would. I often said, like, I'm drowning. And I'd gotten to the point. I never had suicidal thoughts, but I'd gotten to the point of I. I'm just gonna run away. Like Adam is a great dad. He'll be fine with them.   - Allie Bryan My mother, who was amazing, like in my head, I like I can't do this anymore. I I'm I'm drowning. And then my kids are watching their mom all the time, having panic attacks and crying and not wanting to get out of bed.   - Adam Bryan And the panic in the stress was, when will this end? You know, when there's no end in sight, right. If there's an end in sight, you can persevere. Persevere on until you. Okay. Like there's an end. It's gonna be hard, but we can't get to the end. But when there's no end in sight and all therapists and physicians are saying we have no clue, it becomes. And you're already drowning in drowning.   - Adam Bryan Literal drowning is silent. You don't see anyone drowning unless you have a really trained eye from a lifeguard to know what a drowning looks and sounds like because it's silent. And so we're drowning individually and as a family and there's no end in sight.   - Liesel Mertes And did people did people. No. Did you have voice? Because I think that could be a difficult thing. Yeah. OK, about one. Yeah. How did it feel talking about that? And two, were people able to be helpful to you in that? Or did it feel isolating?   Allie Bryan And so it was hard to share how difficult it was. But with our close friends, we did. But it still was like, yeah.   - Adam Bryan I do want to say it fell on deaf ears, but there was no context for them either. So when we say which I don't think we did imagine, you think drowning is silent. We don't even know what to ask for. We don't even know what to say. We don't have the capacity to say, I need you to do this for me. We're just struggling and don't even know how to ask. But when we would, we, you know, talk to our close friends.   - Adam Bryan They were. To give them a little bit of grace, they were as helpful as they could be, but they had no context for it. And so they weren't helpful.   - Allie Bryan It was very isolating.   - Adam Bryan  Very isolating. Yeah. And I don't say that to throw them under the bus. They had no context. Or even though the vocabulary when we say shows we're talk reactive attachment disorder, she's struggling through RADS and it's really difficult.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about what you know, they say,   - Adam Bryan OK, so reactive attachment disorder or RAD is when the child in almost every adoptive child will have this and even some biological do when they refuse to attach or a bond to the parents. And so they are pushing you away emotionally, physically will push you away and do things to prove that you don't love them.   - Liesel Mertes So you are feeling like you are drowning? Yes. You have three biological children now in the home. What did you what emerged as the available options for you and how did you begin to try to make away Yahoo!   - Allie Bryan So it was shortly after I had my last panic attack while changing her diaper. And Adam and I were sitting in our boys room. And I was crying. I was like, I just I can't do this anymore. Like, I know I've said that. But there's some there's a shift of like something else, a change. You know, we had I had randomly talked to some people about this whole dissolving of adoption.   - Adam Bryan You found mothers in the trenches or whatever isn't discovered. There's a whole community right about this. And in this, the first time we've talked publicly about this, because this gets a really people get shamed. This is this is a really black mark on many families. And they get kicked out of churches, they get kicked out of neighborhoods, they get kicked out of families where the grandparents or the parents will say, you know, how can you do that to a child? How can you consider that and will kick people out of families in shame?   - Allie Bryan I mean, shame, the biggest.   - Adam Bryan Very much. And so we found this whole community. Oh, yeah. Other people are struggling through this as well. Okay.   - Allie Bryan Yeah. Because before then, I had always had the assumption that the if you were to choose to dissolve your adoption, you know, CPS comes in and they could take your biological kids and it be this huge thing.   - Adam Bryan And that's true.   - Allie Bryan Right. It can. But I randomly found this. And so for me, I'm like, that's not. Nope, not even an option. And so on this day, randomly found a Facebook group of other families in the same situation as ours.   - Allie Bryan And so I just posted our story and said, like, what do you do? And within three weeks of me posting that this family emerged and we face time them. And then that it just kind of snowballed from there as well.   - Adam Bryan And the family had adopted other children with similar needs. And it was a we get it. We understand it. We want her.   - Allie Bryan Right. There was. There was. And also some other really cool things that like they have connections to Uganda has over us. That was huge for our daughter. Of understanding Uganda and loving it and realizing that she is Ugandan. Like, that's a huge thing 'cause we love that culture and want her to know it. And they also do.   - Allie Bryan Which was in the Lord kept bringing in these confirmations. And so we decided to, just like a birth mom would give her biological daughter up for adoption. That same legal process is then what we ended up doing. And so this other family had to do their legal process and we had to do ours. And it took a couple months.   - Allie Bryan And in this time, we didn't share it with hardly anyone, because if you if it gets out and someone just doesn't like you or has, you know, makes assumptions, it can be really.   - Adam Bryan All it takes is a teacher saying, hey, I heard from one of the children that they're selling their daughter.   - Adam Bryan Right. And then all the teacher has to do is call CPS and say, I'm a teacher. Here's what. And it goes down or really dangerous and bad.   - Allie Bryan You need one lie and then you get investigated and kids taken out of your home. And if that doesn't happen for everyone.   - Adam Bryan But that was scary.   - Allie Bryan  It was really scary. So we're in a situation where we're not. Our kids don't even know. Only close friends and family know we're still drowning. And at this time that our friends, it's that mentality of like, oh. But now you've a light at the end of the tunnel. And so.   - Liesel Mertes And you're feeling this risk, perhaps? Yes. Yeah. Of What could happen with the involvement of the outside agencies? Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I imagine that there's also a risk that you're perceiving of, well, you're still considering moving this child out of your home, really wanting to be concerned that she is well cared for. Absolutely.   - Liesel Mertes And that's sometimes, you know, that's the you know, the reasons that those outside Agent Wright exist. Right. How are you mitigating that risk? What steps along the way are helping you? Yeah. Feel good about this.   - Allie Bryan So one of the really cool things was I randomly connected with another mom that had also dissolved an older kids adoption to the same family. And so I was able to get on the phone with her. And we had lots of and it was two years prior. So she was two years ahead of me with the same family, same situation, and was able to ask her questions. And she's been and she's been able to visit them and keeps contact with them.   - Allie Bryan And so I really got to hear another mom's perspective dealing with the same family as us.   - Adam Bryan So we were able to enter, in a sense, interview this family through another family. Right. And get some of the nitty gritty details, right? Yeah, I wouldn't actually find on paper. Right.   - Liesel Mertes And it sounds like. Tell me if I am understands that you also were having legal assistance and.   - Adam Bryan Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And that this was this was a transfer.   - Adam Bryan Yeah. Clearly a legal right. Yeah. Yeah. So there comes a day that was expensive.   Yes. Yeah.   - Adam Bryan Legal. So there a lot of expensive attorneys and making sure that it is legal and incorrect in that there's no ambiguity as to what's happening with that.   - Liesel Mertes There comes a day where you are telling me this news, your daughter to your boys and you're making the trip young. Tell me a little bit more of that.   - Allie Bryan Our oldest son bawled his eyes out and our other one just sat there silent.   - Adam Bryan They were six and eight. Yeah.   - Allie Bryan And so. So they. Yeah. They don't want to say supportive but. Okay. They also saw like they saw everything that was going on.   - Adam Bryan But we end up telling the kids and even you woke up and I mean, were you saying, how do we do this? I'm like one step at a time. And literally the steps were put the bags in the car. OK. Now, what do we do now? We got to get in the car.   - Allie Bryan And she loved it because she loves just being the center of attention. And so she was an only child at that time in the car ride. And so we had a long car car ride with her, which was enjoyable. And we drove and met the parents that night and had dinner with them. And she just clung to them, which was bittersweet. And then that night we had one last year.   - Adam Bryan She stayed with us.   - Allie Bryan We had one last night with her. And then waking up the next morning was really, just really, really difficult.   - Allie Bryan And so then we brought her to their house and walked around their house. And we got to go show her her bed. And that's where he and I   - Adam Bryan They had they had a whole bed set up for her.   - Adam Bryan And, you know, we set her up and talked with her. And that was when we told her, you know, now Nyla's going to stay here. And we were able to express and there was something at that time that happened that we can't articulate it,   - Allie Bryan But you know your kids looks, you know, the you know.   - Adam Bryan And she got it. She got what was happening. She understood it. There was there seemed to be. And you correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember it somewhat like there was a sadness, but also like a content.   - Adam Bryan Like a. Yeah, OK. I get it. Yeah. And then we had to get out quickly before like emotionally we just had to rip it off like a Band-Aid. Okay.   - Allie Bryan She was. You said it was going in. Yeah. With one of the parents. I can't remember. Like she was totally she was good for like we were we were the ones struggling. Yeah. She just waved to us and we took two days to come back home and stay overnight at a hotel.   - Adam Bryan We didn't need to, but yeah, we did. So that we could just have. We don't want to jump back into life. Yeah. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What is what words are there. Yeah. Right.   - Allie Bryan What that is. It was. And so on. That are   - Allie Bryan The day we transferred her over. We had written a long email because that we're like okay this is what we needed. Send it out to everyone that's in community with us so that they know. And so sitting hitting that send button was extremely difficult and vulnerable because you don't know how you're going to be received.   - Allie Bryan And so we sent that out and it was just a lot of then interacting with people and having to almost love on other people that. They're just getting this information for the first time. And surprised. And, you know, so   - Liesel Mertes tell a little bit more about that. Because I, I think that's an interesting dynamic. So you're in the position. Yes, Emily. What are you expecting yourself to be or what are other people expecting to be in your communication there in the immediate stages?   - Allie Bryan Yeah, a lot of people are having a lot of questions. There is a number of people that were super sweet. But like I need to process this, I'm really to which we completely don't expect. But then, yeah, we're also sitting on the other side. I'll speak for myself like just wanted to go into a hole, you know, and just avoid all of that. Thankfully, most everyone was kind and loving. We've really only lost one really good friend from it that chose to separate themselves from us.   And so the majority that explicitly because.   - Liesel Mertes Yes, they said what? What did they communicate to you for that parting?   - Adam Bryan Well, it was for one of the struggles in this situation for us is that we were communicated to on a number levels as A-plus being. We'll see. And if you're not getting C, then you're not doing A or B, you need to either more A or more B, and then you'll get C. Well, we're not getting C, so it must be our fault   - Adam Bryan in this particular family. How did it had adopted? And it was phenomenal. It's like the storybook of adoption. So. Well. A-plus B or C. And when they found out they were also going through another adoption and it was really painful for them and it was a painful time. Just the time the timing was just bad. And so there was kind of a I can't handle and process that because of what I'm trying to go through. And so there was a a unhinging with her actually not agreeing with the choice. Therefore, there was an intentional distancing, which was incredibly painful.   - Adam Bryan Hurts. It still hurts.   - Adam Bryan And so that relationship is, you know, hopefully it will mean that over time. But, you know, there's still there's still distance than there could have been more loss.   - Allie Bryan There's no running fully. There is for an after a couple of months. I was probably six months after she had left. We ended up deciding to post on Facebook like, let's make this because I was getting tired of running into random people and then them ask and then I'm stuck face to face having to travel. Right. And so I finally got to the point of I just want everyone to know. So we posted the same e-mail we had sent out to everyone else, made it a little bit less personal.   - Allie Bryan And most people were very understanding. But there was one girl that was extremely mean and hurtful.   And I was just really bullying us on social media because   - Adam Bryan I had known her when I was early 20s to the church and I haven't had contact with her in a long time. And so she started saying all this stuff and it was like judge judgmental of you, like, oh, wait a minute, you've never met my wife or this child.   - Adam Bryan You're not at all involved in our life or situation. You're in another state. How how are you speaking as if you haven't talked to you in ten years? How are you speaking? As if, you know, very judgmental. And and she did later apologize.   - Adam Bryan It was a month or so later, she said, you know, what I said was wrong.   - Allie Bryan Well, then come to find out her dad had abandoned her as a kid. And so for her, that post was a trigger for her. And so whenever I realized that, like, oh, she was triggered, you know. And so you just never know where someone's coming from and still stay.   - Liesel Mertes It still stinks.   - Liesel Mertes If you are summing up like what the what the kernel is of of what you receive when you're feeling either shamed or blamed, what is what is the primary message that you pick up from people?   - Allie Bryan The first thing that comes to my mind is you failed. Yeah. And that's still thankfully the Lord has provided two years of counseling   - Adam Bryan And you failed her.   - Allie Bryan Right. And that's been something I'm I struggle with as I failed as a mom. It wasn't enough for her. And so then when people kind of project that, that's it just kind of reinforces. Yeah. Because I definitely feel like I wasn't enough because now she is thriving and she's doing amazing and her family loves her and   - Adam Bryan Still delayed delays issues,   - Allie Bryan though. I'm so, so thankful because that was the ultimate reason. Like we want you to thrive and you're not thriving here with us. It hurts that. Lord, why couldn't she have thrived with us? You know, that's still it's still still a huge pain.     MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Adam Bryan What's one of the painful difficulties of through counseling as well is this this and this is what so many people don't understand. We're in this state of we've lost a daughter just like death, except she's not dead. She's still alive.   - Adam Bryan And so you actually have to see her.   - Allie Bryan And we made the choice.   - Adam Bryan And we made the choice. Yeah. And so the the loss is similar in that that person is no longer in your life. So there's the loss like death, but not it's different.   - Adam Bryan And so the church at large and in your community of people, everyone I don't see anyone knows how to deal with death, but a lot of people know how to. Oh, you bring meals and you're there and you write letters and you do this.   - Adam Bryan But when you say this, people are non-existent, then so will you go and you say, I've lost a daughter and they go, oh, so sorry. And then there's nothing else. And they don't know how to. And. And on one hand, I don't blame them. But on the other hand, it was incredibly difficult.   - Adam Bryan And so with the kids, everything else. Natalie, we're going to counselling for how do we process loss and grief, which is what we've been working through.   - Allie Bryan So, yeah, with the kids, it's just a constant. We try to be really open in our communication. We still talk about her like we'll bring up memories.   - Allie Bryan We kept our family pictures up for a while, but then that was becoming a trigger for me seeing that.   - Allie Bryan And so it's just being mindful of cause I get triggered a lot even still throughout our house. And I think for me, feeling like there's almost like I only had a small window of time to grieve and to be better. And so that's still the struggle.   - Adam Bryan And then even with the kids of, you know, one of them is taking longer to grieve and it's two years later starting to come up and just attempting to being patient with this, because it's yeah, there's there's no rulebook on how this looks.   - Allie Bryan One day, our oldest saw writing, filling out some paperwork for something random. And he came later and told us he was scared that he was filling out paperwork for him to go to another family, that there had been tension with him.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Ali, what do some of those, you know, February 2020 triggers look like for you in any given week?   - Allie Bryan Well, even this morning, my daughter was in her room crying and that woke me up. And it sounded just like her because that was one of the triggers that she wouldn't sleep a lot. And so she just lay in bed and like make mindless sounds and noises. And so I wasn't getting a lot of sleep at that time. And so this morning I woke up to that sound. And I had to like, no, that's not.   - Allie Bryan Or even seeing any, any little black girls around. That's a that's a trigger for me that looked like her. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And how does that have a familiar path of emotion that those triggers go down that you you find yourself? Is it sadness, anger that all of the above, you know, sadness and crying?   - Allie Bryan It happened one time I was hosting our church like welcoming people in and a family came in and the mom was white and the little girl was black. And like, I just started crying. I had to walk away and leave because. And it can feel so foolish or like it's not that big of a deal. Elie Boyer's altogether. But that was really difficult because I still I'm I'm still sad that we can't have her. And so it's just that symbol of.   Yeah, what we've lost.   - Liesel Mertes You know, what in this journey, have there been meaningful gestures or people that you were like that man that matter that came in just the right time of people who, even if they didn't get the entirety of it, you know, have been helped more along the way. And what did they aren't like?   - Allie Bryan One of the first things. I had one of my good friends. I think it was really one of the only gestures while we were dissolving. So she was still in our home. She came in, just dropped off a meal on my front porch and wrote a little note and left, which was so sweet for my personality. So I'm more introverted and I was the only.   - Adam Bryan And that was that was the only like meal or gesture.   - Allie Bryan And it was so it was so sweet.   - Allie Bryan And I still remember it. I and I remember shortly after we dissolved. And I I had very frank open conversations with my close friends about how they hurt me. Like I need to get this out. And they were very apologetic. And I think we've all kind of learned from that. But they, too, my friends, came over and helped me like deep clean my house from top to bottom. And that was like that was their way of gesture to help.   - Adam Bryan But just we had one family give us a gift card to go for. It was like a Chick-Fil-A just, you know, 20 bucks. Yeah. At least that it. It says we see you. Yes. Yeah.   See you here. Like, it's not like we're sitting home going we're we're all of our free meals.   - Liesel Mertes Right. But it's I see you.   - Adam Bryan And so whether it's showing up and mowing their lawn or raking them or just doing something saying, I see you're going through a difficult time and yet I can't fix I can't relax, I don't I don't even know how to process this, but I know it's difficult.   And so I'm going to do this   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Adam Bryan Was that something they say were  some even during even after we transitioned her, there would be weeks and months of nothing. And usually they wouldn't ask us. They would say, hey, how how is she? Have you heard from her? Right. You know, she's fine. But the rest of us are struggling to put our feet in front of it. You know, one in front of the other. Thank you for asking how she is.   - Adam Bryan You know, that's the smart ass answer. I'd want to get back to them. But you would just say, oh, she's doing great.   - Liesel Mertes But I hear it left. You feeling still. You still uncertain You haven't even given thought, right? Right. That this could be anything more than a relief. Right.   - Adam Bryan Yeah. Oh, yeah. The burden is lifted. The sack of rocks you're carrying is now off your back. So you guys would be maybe OK.   - Adam Bryan It's not a saga rocks. It's a person that we loved and cared for and still do. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear that. You know, you you have reference throughout. You know, there is not a playbook for this. Yeah, not well equipped. What? What words? I mean, on the one hand, adoption can be beautiful. And that's.   We still love adoption. The thing. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What do you what do you wish could have been said to a younger version of you in hindsight, whether that was beginning or in the midst of it, like or or, you know, reframing it for someone that's listening, that is maybe at a, you know, a number of points sharing their own journey.   - Adam Bryan I think we would respond differently. But so I'll let you speak first. I'll give you. Yes. Yeah.   - Allie Bryan The first thing comes to mind is love does not heal trauma and trauma. Brain doesn't always know that.   - Adam Bryan You're going to say run away.   - Allie Bryan Yeah. That you you can't out love trauma. In my opinion, no. By a miracle of the Lord, of course. But that was one thing I had to come to grips with. Like, no, there is like there is scientific issues in her brain from trauma as a young child cause she's been through so much. And yeah, you can't you can't out love. I think that's.   - Adam Bryan But I also think, you know, we were obedient and faithful to what we were called to do. Right. And we were called to adopt her. And then we were called to transition her. And I could sit here for another hour and go through all of those things. And we were faithful to that. And so what would I say is it's going to be hard, but stay faithful to the calling in what is on your heart and how do we.   - Adam Bryan How do I express this? Just love. Well, for however long that is.   - Liesel Mertes I think I would also say for anyone, because I get that question from some people like, hey, we're thinking about adoption or thinking.   - Allie Bryan I think I would encourage people to make sure you have a strong foundation of support, whether that's counseling or church or friends of like, okay, we're going into battle and we need your support because we came in very naively   - Adam Bryan and didn't recognize you not knowing that we were the only people in a large circle that have that have adopted.   So.   - Allie Bryan Right. And so we were we kind of just started winging it. And then we got really exhausted winging it. And then we couldn't find the tools because there was not a lot of post adoption tools. There's a ton of adoption tools for adopting and. And raising everyone's for you when you're adopting and they're so excited and they're at the airport when you come home with her and and then and then you're home.   - Adam Bryan You know, there is not a church. And in society there's not a lot of post-adoption help. Right. It's pretty sparse.   - Liesel Mertes Are there any other things that you feel like it's important to give voice to that you didn't get a chance to say? I don't think so.   - Allie Bryan You know, I think just speaking for all like the thousands of families on their Facebook, even just in the Facebook group that I'm in right now, that have that have to go silent because of safety and shame. Just speaking out on their behalf, because we are we are not, you know, just a few.   - Allie Bryan We are many. And they all deserve a voice and they deserve a voice to be able to share their story without being shamed.   - Adam Bryan And that it's this is a part of life and dealing with, you know, sin in the world and just that things are gonna go perfectly. So, yeah, that they're not alone.   - Adam Bryan Yeah. You know, when this happened, we discovered how much pain so many people are in in bars. Even though it was painful and difficult and we lost a relationship not near what other people have gone through, we said we want to be a voice and advocate for everyone else to say take care of these people that are having to go silent, love on them. They're grieving, they're struggling. And when they transition, love on them as if it was a death.   Yes. Yeah. Love on them in the same way. Yeah.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We close with three take-aways from this conversation with Adam and Allie Move towards individuals and families that have experienced a dissolved adoption.These transitions can be full of a lot of pain.  Give what you can:  a meal, a gift certificate, a house cleaning.  Each gesture matters. Be aware that the family left behind will most likely need help beyond the transition.Adam, Allie, and their children are still in counseling, processing grief two years after their disrupted adoption.  Ask families how they are doing and offer gestures of support beyond the immediate days and weeks after the transition.  Adoption can be beautiful, complex, and isolating.Allie and Adam talked about how they felt without resources, like they were silently drowning.  If you have friends who have adopted, reach out, ask them how they are doing, provide a listening ear.  They might be struggling and very much in need of a friend.  Or point them to supportive resources, some of which are available in the show notes. And this is a bonus, fourth take-away.Adam and Allie described a few people that responded primarily out of their experience:  there was the family who had adopted that could not continue to be in relationship.  The Facebook commenter who was shaped by her own history of abandonment.  We are always responding to other people’s pain out of our own experience.  If this episode was triggering, eliciting strong emotion, take a moment to ask the question of what personal experience you might be living out of in your response.    Thanks to our sponsor, FullStack PEO, offering comprehensive HR support for small and medium businesses, and Handle with Care Consulting, where we create workplace first responders.    OUTRO    

Tracklist: Focus Second Step Music is Happiness Dancing in Your Ears Unjustly Keep it Light Learn When to Stop Quip Quip, What What, Old Chap! Pumpkin People Vines to Climb Intoxicated Infinite Possibility Club All music improvised, revised & mastered by Chris Mace, Nick Jackson and Andy Jackson. Hosted by Jethro, Jeffrey and Nick, in the first episode of the new decade, and the 10th visit to the Bos studios for a day of improvised shenanigans, the Bos Boys serve up 11 interesting tunes, and our monkey hosts (and Nick) discuss the possible other universe interpretations, as well as the usual, Jeffreys Story, Jethro's game and general nonsensery. Enjoy! Please check out our Patreon page https://www.patreon.com/cosmicbos  Also, download the album version of this podcast on Spotify, iTunes etc. all without the stupid chatter. Please like, share, subscribe, all that good stuff

What What ! Our soul sister and mentor Marli Ansel, Master Mindset Coach, joins us on the Pod. She shares how she got into mindset coaching and gives you a few tips on how to starting living your best life!Follow us on Instagram:Guest: @marli_ansel@heysistersoulsister.podcastSubscribe to Marli's podcast Waking Up to Magic!

What? What?! WHAT?! So we're midway through Doctor Who Series 12 and we've just been given a curveball the like of which has never been seen in the show. Judoon, the return of Captain Jack Harkness (John Barrowman), a buried TARDIS, a fugitive hiding on earth, a new incarnation of the Doctor... and more mystery about Gallifrey.  Standard episodes just don't do that, do they? But who was watching beyond the legion of Doctor Who fans? Sunday night, a perennial TV favorite on the other side... it takes a massive star to combat a show like Dancing on Ice. So it is with a certain amount of excitement and trepidation that Christian Cawley, James McLean, and Gareth Kavanagh got together this week to discuss Fugitive of the Judoon... Shownotes Facebook discussion of Fugitive of the Judoon (https://www.facebook.com/podkasterborous/posts/2756863531056812) John Barrowman's fake house renovation (https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-01-26/john-barrowman-fake-renovation-doctor-who/)

Speaker 1: (00:00) Hey guys, Biblical Selling… is that an oxymoron or can it be done? Well this week we're going to find out with my good friend, Michael pink, a master sales trainer that's going to answer that question for us. So, stay tuned. How do I bring my faith to work? How do I tap into the power of God in my work life? Paul, why am I going through this adversity? Is God mad at me? I'm also yeoman and I've been helping leaders like you enter these questions at more for over 30 years. That's what this podcast is all about. Let's learn and grow together. Welcome to TGF today. God is Herb's well, Michael, good to have you on our podcast. known each other for a long time. The first, uh, time that we met. Do you remember that? The way I remember it? You were involved in a magazine. Oh my goodness. That was 1990. Speaker 2: (00:55) Okay. That's kind of the Genesis of my memories. I'm thinking does that go back far enough? But I certainly remember the magazine days, so wow, that's, that's way back there. Yeah. you were in my pit days, you know. Speaker 2: (01:12) Well I also knew of you from a, from a, uh, a mutual friend of ours, Mark Heron, who uh, did some graphic work with you in your, when you were the, uh, had your ad agency and uh, so Speaker 1: (01:23) you have really excelled in the sales area over that time when I was on the track of all the faith and work messaging and doing workshops and so forth, then you were kind of along the a similar path but really focused on sales. Uh, give us a little bit of background on yourself in terms of kinda your sales and how you got to be such a specialist in that area. I know you were had a pro, you were professionally in sales, but uh, had it translate to equipping others around them. Speaker 2: (01:54) Well, it's, it's a good question. It started like this. Uh, I moved to this country, uh, in, um, 1985 and got a job in sales in January of 86. I had to learn to speak the language. She was a whole new language for me. How did you come from Canada? But I moved to Tennessee and you know, they had to learn me how to talk. Right. So at any rate, um, so I got down to Tennessee and I got a job selling copiers. The thing I knew OSS, you have to understand, you want to talk about the Holy spirit. I'm driving, if you know Nashville at all. I 40 goes right through the middle of the town downtown and I'm driving through there and the Holy spirit said, and just the core of my eye corner of my eyes. Hmm. Quantity to a building. So that's where you're going to work. Speaker 2: (02:40) I mean, I hadn't, I wasn't married or anything. I was just down there on a trip and it's like what? And I, you know, I saw it was copies. I said, Lord, I don't want to sell copiers. I've done that. I don't want to do that again. But he told me that's where you're going to work. So I went by, got it. And I applied. And now long story short, they wanted me and they hired me and put me out in a Murphysboro in a branch office out there. And the fact of the matter is, I want to two things. Number one, I want it to be able to glorify God. And I said, I don't want any intention or fame or anything else. I just want to be able to have enough of a platform to give you glory and credit and honor. Because what I know, we've got a lot of Christians in the marketplace who are doing not doing well. Speaker 2: (03:20) And so their reputation, they're, they're, they're, um, their messaging of the gospel isn't necessarily well-received. It can be very authentic, but a lot of times people don't regard you very highly if you ha, if you're not doing well, if you're, if that's just the reality, that's just the way it is. So I said, I want to have a platform. I want to do that. And so, and I was a little nervous to be honest, you know, getting back in sales and straight commission and all that. And so I, on the first day when the vice president said to me, Michael, we expect you to make one sale for every four or every five demonstrations that you do. The national average is one out of four. That's what we expected. And we don't expect any sales you first month, but we want to have your second month and for every month thereafter. Speaker 2: (04:01) So in 90 days they wanted me to make six sales. Now I was with the company two years off, so I didn't see anybody do that, but that's okay. But what really bothered me was selling one out of four minute failing three out of four times. And I, and I've got frustrated with that. I said, Lord, if you call me to do this, I said, what farmer plants four rows of corn and embrace the God, but just one of them come up. And I said, and I picked up my Bible and I said, I'm going to find principles and strategies. I'm going to start starter. Provers and I can apply deliberately and consciously to the sales process. And instead of selling one out of four, I tend to sell one on one. Well, they thought it was a little lofty to be put a mile late. Speaker 2: (04:36) But as it turned out, 90 days later at the first quarterly meeting that I was involved with, all your results are projected on a screen. And when it came my turn, I said, I've been here 90 days, I've, I've done 22 presentations and I had 22 sales. It was one out of one and was three and a half times a number that I never saw anybody hit. Well, they all said I'm from Mars. I finished the year at about a 90 some odd percent closing rate instead of 25% and they may be the the a sales manager. And that was to find out whether in fact it was transferable. Well, you know what, 10 months later the team that gave me the results were up not 30% for 130% in 10 months. Huge increase. That meant it was transferable. So that was the Genesis of that when I was, cause I was going into the scriptures and mining it and saying, wait a minute, there's a pathway, there's a blueprint. Speaker 2: (05:25) There's a model, there are things in scripture that are actually practical. It's not just for my marriages, not just for the most important thing, our eternity and all that was important as that is, but it's for the here and now. Even if you're calling to sales and business, there are practical things that you can apply. You can pull from scripture and do it. And so that began, that was the beginning, the Genesis of that. And when I left that and I started my own publishing company, hidden men of publishing and, and from there I went into sales training and in 1994 and I've been doing it ever since. And sharing and continuing to mine the word of and the principles from the, Speaker 1: (05:58) from the scripture and teach them to the body of Christ or anybody else who's interested. You get some pretty remarkable results. You know, when I think about sales and where we're going to focus on sales and marketing in this podcast, when I think about sales, I can hear somebody say, well, I'm not really in sales. And my answer to that is we're all in sales. We all have an idea that we have to sell. We all have somebody that we need to persuade. We're all in situations that requires certain skill set to communicate in a way that is persuasive. Um, how do you take, Speaker 2: (06:35) well, you know, it's true because the people, they don't have sales representative on their business card. They may be a CPA or an accountant or a dentist or whatever. They're in sales. Believe me, they're looking at their numbers every month. They're in sales. But it doesn't matter what my definition of selling is this, it's the transference, a passion or you could say the transference of conviction. So if you don't have anything that you're passionate about or con or, or have a deep conviction about that maybe you're not in sales. Okay. But we do have, I'm passionate about a lot of things and things that I believe in deeply. You could say it's a transference of belief. And so in that sense, if you are passionate about something, you believe deeply about something, how do you communicate that in a way, ms goin to get, um, somebody interested in, in your value proposition. So to speak and get them to want what you want. How are you going to do that? And what does the Bible teach about that? And so that's some of the stuff that I open up big time and uh, and talk about is how you [inaudible] Speaker 1: (07:32) you can actually do that based on biblical mop. Yeah. And I think that's the key distinctive here is how do we bring the kingdom of God into a professional area like sales, you know, and we constantly are teaching men and women too. How do you manifest the presence of God in the area of your calling? It if gunner also, my spiritual mentor said that wants to me, he must have said it 500 times to me, you know, how are you going to manifest the spirit of God in that area? That's what you've, you've really figured out and really saw the scriptures to help people understand that. And, uh, you know, um, when we think about selling being spiritual, um, you know, you know, how do you approach that? What, what, what's the first step in? And really getting to first base on that. Well, first of all, Speaker 2: (08:27) selling is an activity, but it's between people. It's not between me and the hospital or me and the hotel or me and the other firm. It's between me or you and another individual. And each of us have three parts to us. We know we're body, soul and spirit. And so we are communicating and all of those levels, whether we know it or not. And so it's, I think it's important when you're, you're not just in a selling situation transferring, although some people do that and they're not very good at it by the way they, they suit up, they show up and they throw up, you know, and I hope something comes out of that. But that's not the way to do that. And so you recognize that there's a whole other element there of, of my soul, of my heart, of my passion and my conviction and auction actually the spirit as well. Speaker 2: (09:15) There's, I call something I call a space between me and you, between me and a buyer, between, you know, two people. I went in a selling situation, I call it, there's the, there's the, there's the spirit of the sale, the there, there's a spiritual substance between me and you. I can't see it, but I can feel it. And so can you, and that's what happens. People say, you know, I don't know what it is. I just don't trust that guy. And the guy was, is he's saying the same thing that maybe somebody else said, but he's unaware of the fact that he's communicating with his entire being. And maybe his motivation is, I don't care about this guy. I'm just trying to get money out of his pocket and put it in mind. And the thing is, people can pick up on that. So there's a spiritual dimension to selling that I think is important. Speaker 2: (10:02) And so what I want to do is come into the selling situation with, Mmm, what it says in progress three, three and four where I'm going to write mercy and truth on my heart. Okay, I'm going to blind it around my neck and I'm going to go into a situation. Mercy to me meant never trying to get somebody to do something that wasn't in their best interest in truth was basically full disclosure because on us, you know, you've been in marketing for a long time and you're a genius at at that end of it unparalleled by almost anybody. But in that marketing thing, you know that you can tell the truth but convey a complete lie. I tell people as an example, um, I once spoke at the promise keepers meeting in when it was going big time. It was at the RCA dome and Indianapolis 60,000 men there. Speaker 2: (10:47) It was phenomenal. It was a big experience. People are going, yeah, you did. Yep. I said, no, I was in the bleachers. I wasn't on the platform. Um, but nobody could hear me. And so you can, I tell everything I said was true, but if you leave out certain things, you can convey a lie. And lying is the, is really as the intent to deceive. And so you can deceive intentionally by leaning on certain facts. And so people who have their intent open can pick up and discern those things oftentimes. And so I look at that, his interaction with people as a body, soul and spirit kind of thing. Well let's help our listeners today by getting some tools that might be useful to them in sales. And I, uh, put a question together for you. And the question is five things you've learned about sales that have impacted your life the most? Speaker 2: (11:38) Well, besides the fact that that I learned at selling is the transference of passion. When you, when you just, when you understand that, that if you're not passionate, you don't have conviction or deep belief about what it is you're selling, you really need to be find that well go find the thing that has that for you cause you're not going to do so well. Number two, this is a very big one off [inaudible] and it's so contrary to how I was trained in sales. Now I was trained by the way, as a young man, I mean I sold insurance, I sold copiers and both of those industries focused heavily on training. And so I'm, I'm familiar with that, but they don't teach what I'm about to tell you. And this one has put millions and millions of dollars in my client's pockets. And it's, it's a simple rule. It's this selling is not about telling. Speaker 2: (12:27) It's about listening. And if you're going to listen, you need to ask questions. If you're going to ask questions, you need to ask strategic questions, the right questions. So where, cause as a Christian, I'm thinking kid, God, you've called me into sales at this time in my life back when I was in my thirties. So where do I find those questions? What questions should I ask? I asked you about the ballgame last night. Do I ask about the weather? W w where do I go in this thing? And it's that kind of study that got me now to answer that question, when I'm reading the scriptures, I look for patterns. I see patterns of three. I have a pastor friend of mine, uh, that has seen now, um, 1500 of these three full progressions, body, soul and spirit, prophet, priest and King and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of those. I look for those patterns. Speaker 2: (13:18) I look for patterns of seven and OS. One day I was reading numbers 13 and I noticed Moses is getting ready to send the 12 spies into the promised land, but understand this and for the people listening to this podcast or watching it, when they were going into that promised land, it wasn't like they, the people on the other side of the Jordan river were saying, Hey, I heard you were coming. Come on in. Hey, let me show you my guest house and you got my main house. Here's the keys to my Alexis. Hey, I got an SUV out back and I have all my cattle. Good luck. We're headed to the desert. No [inaudible] that wasn't it. They were going to be met and they knew this. They knew they were going to be met with resistance and if there are going to be resistance, and it wasn't like, Hey, I don't like this. Speaker 2: (13:56) No, it was resistance to the point of death. They were going to fight to this, to the death on that. So with that in mind, they knew there was risk and if they were successful, they knew there was a great reward. So resistance, risk and reward. Golly, that sounds like business, doesn't it? We, you know, we take risks all the time, all the time, and we have a resistance to our ideas. We think you think, and I think, Hey, this is something that people love. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I mean it's just the way it is. You take a look at acts chapter two you know, Peter gets up and he gives the best presentation ever and thousands of people are there and some people are saying, I don't understand this guy. I'm perplexed. And other people say, no, they're drunk. They're this. Speaker 2: (14:40) They were mocking them. And I don't see anything worth mocking. And I don't see anything perplexing look like a straight forward presentation to me. But some people said, no, wait a minute. This makes perfect sense. That 3000 of them gave their life to Christ. That's the reality. And you never know which ones you're going to get. Are they going to love it? Are they going to hate you or are they just going to, I don't understand what he's talking about. And you're always going to get those, that kind of a mixture. So they knew they were going to get some resistance. And so Moses has you read it. Number 13 you'll see that he had a verse 17 to 20 his seven questions he had to have answered. Well OS when I saw there were seven questions I that Whoa, wait a minute. That's the divine imprint of God right there. Speaker 2: (15:21) I want to dig deeper on that. And I spent two or three days reading those four verses and on my knees and at my desk praying and seeking God for what is, what are the implications and what does the application to business. Now I'm telling you, you know this Oscar, cause you're one of the very few people I know that do what I do the same kind of thing. But I know hardly anybody other than you, you and a couple other people who actually will take the time and say, how do I apply this practically in business? Right? They just read the verse and it's a story from 3000 years ago and they move on, Hey, I've checked, I read my three chapters today, or whatever their thing is, right? No, I'm not. I got to understand this thing. And so what happened is, um, I thought I had an understanding of it. Speaker 2: (16:08) And coincidentally I call this the Moses questioning strategy as it happened us within a couple of days of me getting my understanding of this, I would buy a client who was in the air conditioning wholesale business, meaning they supplied brand X to air conditioning contractors. They kind of guys are calling your house in mind, thanks our air when it goes out. And so they sold their particular line of air conditioning. And so they would call on the big contractors and say, Hey, why don't you install our equipments that are the ones who were installing? That was the business and the president. Uh, I ran into him in the parking lot. I said, Michael, I've been calling this one contractor a big contractor twice a month for six years. You said, I'm taking heat, him and his crew breakfast, lunch and dinner. My wife and I had been to his house, his wife, and he had been to our house for dinner. Speaker 2: (16:53) We'd gone to movies together, but in six years I haven't got a nickel's worth of business. What would you do? I see, well, it was me. I'd ask him seven questions. I just, I just discovered this and they looked at me like, what are your title? Seven questions? I said, well, they're not seven questions. Exactly. It's more like seven topics. And he said, can you write that out for me? So I created a, I got three or four page document and under each topic I wrote all these questions. Did not at that time disclose where I got it from and I wrote it. The kind of questions like Moses said, first question is, you know, look at the land, what it is. Okay, well what it is, man, he's looking for this. These are the general circumstantial questions, which you know, the art of war, if you, if you've ever read that book by sun Xu, you know that they looked at other box canyons are the, are there mountains or the planes are there, bogs are there, you know, different, what's the lay of the land or the swamps is their forest. Speaker 2: (17:47) They had to know the lay of the land to have a victory. So that's essentially what Moses was doing were kind of contemporaries. And he's looking at that. So those are the general circumstantial things. So in a business, that's the first question. I want to find out all the general circumstantial things, but then it goes deeper. So anyway, I wrote all this out for the guy and it was a Wednesday when he went to his call with these questions. And now this is a man who's been calling on twice a month for six years and at each other's home. But in that one call he discovered more about that man's business than he had ever known in six years. As a result, the gentleman asked him for a quote, a proposal, which he gave him on Thursday and on Friday, 48 hours afterwards, he received a purchase order for $60,000. Speaker 2: (18:31) No, he was blown away. I mean he was so blown away. He said, Michael, he speaks to us because, excuse me, it just was too amazing to him. So he called it an emergency sales meeting. Cause us the first thing that you might think and others might think, and I would think that too probably, well maybe that was just the time. Maybe it's just coincidental. Maybe. Maybe, you know, people could think that, but he put me in front of a sales force of 18 guys. He held up the sheet of paper and he said, I don't know what this is and I don't know why it works. I want every one of you using it. And Michael, I was going to tell you how to do it. So he hired me for the day and I trained to Salesforce and this was the end of March. Now this is important because it's air conditioning, so it's seasonal in terms of the demand. Speaker 2: (19:14) The preceding April, they had done 1.2 million in sales. This was the end of March. They were hoping to do 1.3 million in this April. It's a a hundred thousand dollar increase. Most people are happy with that. It's an 8% growth. I just, when people are, they just think, okay, a hundred grand, we're, we're, we're climbing our business. So that's what he was trying for. But he made them use this questioning strategy and they were reluctant because they thought it was kind of corny, even though they didn't know it came from Moses at that time. The end of the month, I checked with them, said, how'd you do? Well, it wasn't 1.2 it wasn't 1.3 or four or five or six or even seven. They did 1.75 $550,000 Pope 46% I think it is over the year before his face. I'm not exaggerating his face. When I saw him just went white, he was almost speechless. Like how, what, what is this? Speaker 2: (20:04) And he asked me, what is, what is this? And I know he's thinking, is it Zig Ziglar? Did you learn it from Tom Hopkins? Where'd you get this? I said, I learned it from Moses [inaudible] I didn't realize how that was going to land on his ears. He looked at me, like I said, like I was inferring, I just talked to Moses the other day, you know, and uh, you'd been less surprised. So I just cold cocked him or something. But anyway, uh, I tried to explain it to them as best I could. He thought it was the strangest thing, but that was the beginning of that question. The strategy, and I've taken that to corporations large and small and seeing their sales one company, Ohio, they were stuck at 22 million a year for three years. President calls me, says, Michael, can you help me? W we just can't seem to get above 22 million. Speaker 2: (20:46) We'd there for three years. Okay. I go there and I bring not only the Moses question he strategy, which is important, the other biblical principles and strategies and tactics that go along with that. Brought that to the table. Middle of the year, I think it was there in the summertime. By the end of the year, they went from 22 to $30 million. Big, huge thing. It happens over and over and over and over and over again. Is that, so that's a big thing when you say, well, some of the things I learned I learned from the Bible. Well, listen, I've been trained by Xerox, I've been trained by insurance corporations, I've had the PSS course. I almost bought a Sandler training system at one time. I understand what's out there in the world of sales. People are married to that, but I decided us, I don't know. I do know about you, but I don't know about dude watching this, but this means everything to me. Speaker 2: (21:32) And by God I can find it in here if it, if it exists, if it's there, I'm going to find it. And if I can find it and I can synthesize it and put it into project racing or do so, and to prove it, I'm going to take it out into the marketplace before I ever teach anybody. I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, before I start teaching in abroad, you know, all over the place. So a few years ago us, uh, back in, uh, I'm trying to get my timeframe here, 2015, you know, I'd been developing some new materials and really pulling out some stuff and getting a handle on things. And our friend of mine called me, he had a, a commercial real estate agency. Yeah, 12 agents. But when he called me, they were down to three and these three guys were looking for a job. Speaker 2: (22:15) He was thinking of shutting it down. He said, can you do what you do for me and what you do for all these other companies? Come in and do an analysis. It's expensive, but it's worth it. And so I went in and I did my three day analysis. He's a very good friend of mine and he said at the end of that he said, do you think you could help me for six months? Maybe we could turn this thing around. You do the front end, help me do the sales, I'll do the back end. And I said, okay. At the end of six months we had a 900 and something percent increase in sales. Well, people think that's not bad. [inaudible] he asked me to do it another year, so I extended it a year, 2016 the two year growth rate was 6,000 and something percent you said one more year please, please, please. I did it for the third year. We ended up with 11350% three year growth rate, which made him his company the fastest growing real estate brokerage in the history of the inc 500 and the 16 fastest growing privately held company in America. So that isn't a boast on anything but this boasting on this and the person that wrote this book, Jesus Christ, I'm talking about him and his word and it works. [inaudible] very practical, measurable, meaningful ways. So that's true. It's one of the things. Speaker 1: (23:27) Well, I want to transition, uh, and talk about a new resource that you've come out with called rainforest strategy. The planet's most successful business model. You talk about seven well secrets that will revolutionize your business, turn your ideas into revenue and your life. Speaker 2: (23:47) This is a new book you've come out with. Um, what's this all about? Rainforest. Well, you know that the book's been out a little bit longer than that, but the, the, the, uh, content, uh, in some of, I keep developing new content, but the rainforest is this here, here's how it came about. Very important. Nope. You remember how I told you I got the job selling copies when I first came to this country because the Holy spirit said, go there. Right. Well, I'm trying to remember the year now might've been Oh five, I'm not sure. But at some point in that era, that timeframe, I was in my living room, on my knees, praying, having my time with the Lord. And I remember asking him, I said, Lord, how'd you start your business? You know, the one that we call planet earth, not planning on Hollywood, but planet earth. Speaker 2: (24:32) I mean, how, how'd you do that? I said, I got Tom here. Just explain it to me. Okay. Hmm. And he began to do that. I think he was laughing pretty hard. Uh, and, and he gave me some incredible information, but one of the things he said to me was, and I can't say the words, but the gist of it was he invited me to go to Panama. The country. No, you have to understand something. A, I'd never been to Panama. B. I have never met anybody who had ever been to Panama and see, I never read about or knew anybody in Panama except for Noriega and he was in jail in Miami last I heard. So it wasn't completely completely left field thing. Come the panel. I'm going to show you something. I said what? What? What do you want to talk about? So it's to do with business. Speaker 2: (25:21) Oh, okay. So I thought I was going to meet some banking things or something I didn't know, but I'll say, okay, we'll go. And so I remember, Mmm. Telling some people, Hey, I'm going to do. And I said, Lord, when he said make haste right, right now, don't delay. I've got on the phone that day and I made a reservation for like a two week notice or whatever it was. And uh, I told people I'm going to Panama. He said, what force? I don't know how long you going to be gone? I'm not really sure. What are you going to say? I don't know. He just told me to go to Panama, so I don't really know. So I'm, but I'm going. So I go to Panama, I fly down there and one of the guys, that kind of mindset, well listen, I'll underwrite the entire trip if you'll, um, look for some real estate for me. Speaker 2: (26:03) Okay. So we, I got down there, rented a helicopter and his expansion, he ended up putting an offer on a three kilometer wide stretch of beach front property and you know, for 25, 30 million, whatever it was, and you know, help them do that. Because I had no agenda. I didn't know why I was down there. And one day when I was up in the mountains staying in a bed and breakfast, I'm just walking and observing the amazing beauty of the rainforest. Often the distance and the plant life and everything was just staggering to me. I was so impressed and his Holy spirit spoke to me, just spoke to me. Now how was it praying on my knees and saying, speak to me, Lord, my servant listens. I'm just taking in the beauty of it and walking to get some breakfast. And he said, so on everything you need to learn about business, you can learn in the rainforest. Speaker 2: (26:55) What are you talking about? You can learn about business in the rain forest. I, I went to the lobby, I said, are you guys having, are there any seminars in the rainforest today? I thought maybe somebody doing a business seminar in the rainforest. I didn't know. I was trying to figure this out. No, there's nothing going on. That's a strange thing. Business in the rainforest, you know, and I went and rented the car and you know, took a look around and reinforced, didn't go on a trip that particular time, but I got home after that and I Googled rainforest and the word business. It turns out there was a book written by the CEO of Mitsubishi and, uh, another gentleman and it was called what we learned in the rainforest business, lessons from nature. And I opened it up and I thought, wow, I'm not crazy. [inaudible] Speaker 2: (27:41) this whole thing. It's really there. It's a real model. I went back to Panama, I went there a total of five times. I went to uh, you know, Tobago, Barbados, Jamaica. I went, I went to the upper Amazon and Ecuador. I mean, I searched this thing out. I went to the world headquarters for tropical research research for the Smithsonian Institute. I mean, I dove in with all four feet, you know what I mean? I mean, I just don't render this thing. I was like fascinated that they got that everything I needed to learn about business I could learn in there. And so I did and I searched it and I found so many amazing things in the rainforest that apply to business and it was just nice to know that somebody else that the world respected because of his stature. Again, you got an ice statute. People pay attention to you. Speaker 2: (28:27) Give me a few, give me a few. Okay, I'll give you one just that I think is really amazing. Do you know what an an agouti is? A G. O. U. D I know. And agouti is, it's a, it's a mammal. It's, it's kind of like an Otter in terms of how it moves, but it doesn't live so much in the water, but it's probably the size of a dog. Mmm. But it moves kind of like an honor. Right. And when it runs across the land, it's got a bit of a hump to it, but it's an unusual creature. And when I'm down in the rainforest, I saw these booties. One thing I learned about them, and I call this the Brazil not effect, is that in the rainforest, only the agouti of all the creatures that live in the rainforest, the Gootee is the only one with teeth sharpen up and jaws strong enough to open up a Brazil nut. Speaker 2: (29:16) Now, most people don't know this. I didn't when I first learned it, but in Brazil, not most people are familiar with the Brazil nuts. They see them there. The shaped almost like a section of an orange. What they don't necessarily know is that they come inside a ball like this, like a size of a grapefruit with lots of Brazil nuts in them. And that outer shell is so hard. No other animal can open it except for the agouti. Now as it turns out, the agouti loves Brazil nuts and Brazil nut trees. They have a problem. They don't have legs, they don't have mobility. And so they pay the agouti [inaudible] say you can have all the Brazil nuts you want, man, it's all yours. Just do me a favor. Go down the river a little bit and plant some more, uh, nuts in the ground for me so we can expand our franchise. Speaker 2: (29:59) And they do like squirrels. They buried the nuts in the ground, so they don't always go back to them. And up comes another Brazil nut tree. So this, this example, yes. What's happening here when you analyze this is that one, one entity. The agouti is trading what it has in excess. And the excess mobility energy could go anywhere for what it didn't have any of, which was food and Brazil. Nut trees has incredible amount of food just dropping to the ground, but it has no mobility, no ability, no ability or mobility. [inaudible] a multiply the franchise. So we employs the agouti and they have this relationship. And so I'm looking at that and thinking, how can I apply that principle in business? How can I take what I have in abundance and trade it for what I don't have? So here's the best example. The first one, first one I did actually first one I did [inaudible] what I have in abundance. Speaker 2: (31:00) Well, I have knowledge. And the nice thing about this, when I give you or the listeners this knowledge, the beautiful thing is I still retain it. They have it. But I have it too. If I, if I give you my watch now you have it. And I don't if I give you my knowledge now, we both have it. So it costs me nothing to give you knowledge. So I called a friend of mine who was the a part owner and, and participant in a success magazine, been around for a hundred something years. And I said to him, he was doing the relaunch of it and everything was going fine. And they were selling ads in that magazine for $60,000 for a full page ad. And I called him up one day and I said, Hey, listen, you know, actually I got it wrong. He called me up and said, Michael, what would you charge for your training? Speaker 2: (31:48) And I said, well, I said, what's money among friends? I just learned this, this Brazil nut thing. So what are you talking about? I said, all I want is a piece of paper from you. What do you mean a piece of paper? I said, I don't even want wanna hope he spent, I just want one side of a piece of paper, the full side. And you realize, Oh, you want a full page ad? And I said, yeah, and I want it to run for the year, which at that time was a bimonthly publication. So six issues and they had it on. So see now here's the thing. They had unsold advertising space. I had time and we traded my training for a full page ad in a prominent business magazine success magazine. And the deal was for a year I was $360,000 four me doing my training now, that's the agouti effect. That's the Brazil not effect and it works and everything. I know a guy in Speaker 1: (32:40) Canada who, and you can, they can Google this if they haven't ever done it. I think it's called one red paperclip or just Google red paperclip. Have you ever heard the story? Awesome. No. It's a young guy and he was on the news, everything. He traded a paperclip. I can't really, I'm going to butcher the story, but you'll get the idea. He traded this red paperclip for a pen that somebody didn't want. They had a lot of pans. Okay. And so he basically traded up and he took the pen. Any traded it for, I don't remember what a letter opener or something and then he traded that for, you know, a little piece of furniture and then he traded that for something bigger. Then he traded it for a snowmobile. Then he traded it for a truck and then he ultimately traded it. What does way up to an Alice Cooper concert and everything else. Speaker 1: (33:25) We ultimately treated it for a house in the end of the year. He went from a paperclip to a home free and clear in someplace in the prairies of Canada, a good home, nothing wrong with it. And he traded it up and it was just, Hey, I have this in excess. I don't need you have something in excess. And he worked his way up. That principle works in business. I use it to get a, you know, incredible advertising thing, which by the way led to a publishing deal and lots of other things. So that's one. Yeah, that's just what I want to stop you for a moment. And, uh, I was looking over the chapter titles of the book. Um, but as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, you and I both been equipping leaders for 25 years and, um, you know, we're both getting in a to a winter season of our life, if you will, a little, uh, we don't want to admit it, but we are, and I see that gray hair. Speaker 1: (34:19) So, um, but, uh, I know that you still have a passion to equip leaders and so do I. And you know, um, we've been thinking about a new program that's going to come out in the next, uh, few months that, um, I think [inaudible] we'll incorporate, uh, things that you're teaching cause you'll be at probably a guest on one of my programs that I'm going to do in this, but it's a very exhaustive program for leaders. And, uh, I just want the listeners, uh, to know that that's coming and if you're interested in it to go to a webpage that we set up to get on our waiting list and that's become God's change agent.com because God's change agent.com and that's just a waiting list. You'll also get a free download of a resource that, uh, is very compatible to what Michael's talking about today. So just go to, uh, become God's change agent.com and just get on our waiting list and you'll be the first to learn about this when it comes out. Speaker 1: (35:24) So, um, yes. So this reminds me also of some of the things I see in your book. I just want to go through each chapter and the title of that chapter one is the epiphany better than gold. I assume you're kind of share what, what you just shared about the epiphany of the rainforest and then chapter two is breaking the code. The mystery unfolds. Chapter three is spontaneous. Well seeing what others, miss. Boy, is that true? A chapter four, well, secret number one, the fungus factor getting the most from the least. Uh, chapter five is practice abundance or experience scarcity. Chapter six is well, secret number two is grow towards the light powered by vision. Mmm. Chapter seven is well secret number three, enter the no pest zone. Seven natural laws to get control of your time. And chapter eight is the [inaudible] a pathogen problem, the feeding, what's been eating you. Speaker 1: (36:27) Chapter nine, well secret number four, the photo censuses. Photo synthesis of ideas. That's easy to say. Turning vision into provision. Chapter 10 deals with, well secret number five, the strangler fig phenomenon, a lesson and timing. Chapter 11 Wells circuit number six, the Brazil nut effect. Leverage through strategic relationships in chapter 12 as well. Secret number seven, the orchid element, creating irresistibility. Before we went on, I asked if you'd be willing to share a little bit, uh, of this book. And so you agreed to give away. Mmm, I, uh, first two chapters of the book just to see if people would like what they see and if they, they like it, there's information in there about ordering it, but, uh, you agreed to do that. And so we set up a webpage, a call, Michael pink, download.com Michael pink, download.com. You can go there and download the first two chapters of this book, uh, in a PDF format and, uh, it'll give you some good, good stuff there, but you're going to want the whole book. Speaker 1: (37:39) Uh, and, uh, as we, uh, close out today, Michael, I just want to talk briefly about the fact that Jesus had 12 salespeople, you know, I call them salespeople and, uh, they all were not highly qualified. Uh, in fact, they had very little training in what they were doing yet. Ah, Jesus. Turn these guys into the, um, the most incredible world movement. Uh, what are some things we can learn about how Jesus related to his disciples? Well, you know, I love all the warm and fuzzies because they're wonderful and nobody is more loving than Jesus. Nobody's more gracious than Jesus. Nobody's more humble than Jason's. He's, he's everything. He's amazing. But people sometimes lose sight of the fact that he also, yeah, he's the ultimate businessman. He's got a ruthless competitor who lies about him, who lies about their own promises, right? Who do anything to succeed and, and he's Speaker 2: (38:36) up again, but that, that competitor is against up against Jesus where everything he touches is self replicating and self duplicating. And, and so the best the devil can do is imitate what Jesus does and love. This is number one. Numbers are important is business. People are going to appreciate this. I'm going to get down to the nitty gritty, you know, in the parable of talents where it gives one guy, one talent, another guy to another guy, five. And those aren't talents like how now you can sing and chew gum. These are, these are weight measures. Uh, some estimates say, you know, 75 pounds would be a talent and it was either silver or gold was gold. It would be multi-millions, five talents of that. It would be quite a bit. Um, so it kind of depends whether we're talking gold or silver, but it doesn't matter with substantial amount of money that was given in this story. Speaker 2: (39:20) And it's illustration. But Jesus is telling it for a reason. And so he says now the, in the story, the person goes away, but when he comes back, he wants an accounting. Interesting. [inaudible] so Jesus tells a story and the only question Jesus is reported to a vast, again in his story, [inaudible] what have you done with what I gave you? He didn't say, Hey, how's your mom? How's your grandma? Do you guys have a good Christmas? No, I'm not saying those things aren't there. But the one question that a boiled down to is what I gave you this, what did you get? And so the first guy says, we gave me five, I've, I've doubled it into 10. The other guy says, you gave me two, a double that into four. And the other guy says, Hey, I knew you were a tough guy. I hit it cause I was scared. Speaker 2: (40:05) And Jesus as you know, took the talent from the guy who he considered to be a essentially faithless guy. And he took it and he gave it to the guy who had doubled the five as opposed to the guy who doubled to, for the simple fact, the doubling, doubling $1 million. It's a lot harder than doubling $100 for example. You and I can double a hundred dollars pretty quickly, but doubling 100 million, that's harder. And so the larger the amount, the harder it is. So we gave it to the guy that had accomplished more, but the thing that I really, really spoke to me was [inaudible] he's zeroed in on the numbers because salespeople have a tendency when you say, how's it going this month? They give you a story. Well there's this one guy and you know, he's got his wife sick and this and that and, and uh, and then, you know, there's other ones. Speaker 2: (40:52) And they tell stories. Jesus just cut through all that. What are the numbers? That's number one. Uh, number two, what Jesus did that I really like is you read it in Luke 10 [inaudible], he sends the 70 out. Well, the 72 depending on which it is, he sends them out and when he come back, he debriefs them and they said, you know, it says the 70 came back and he said, Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name. And so there was a bit of a debriefing, which puts a value on them. Listen, I wonder what happened, how did it go when you're out there? So we cared about that and debrief them. And probably my third, but favorite thing about cheeses is that, I mean so much I could talk about, but he taught them by example. He didn't just say, and I'll go up there and do this. Speaker 2: (41:35) They saw him time and time again, laid his hands on people. He's healed the sick, raise the dead. They watched it firsthand, 100% successful all the time. And they, he modeled it for them so that they could actually go out and do that very thing. And so I think that's important as leaders is that people want to know, but they want to know can you do what you're saying? Oh awesome. You know, I teach what I teach. But I took that three year hiatus to see if what I had additionally learned really worked in the non forgiving, highly competitive, somewhat on ethical world of commercial real estate. Can we do that? And by the way, during that time when it became the fastest growing company in America or 16th us, his company, fastest growing real estate brokerage. Wow. A lot of new people. I personally led several of them to Christ who led other people to Christ. Speaker 2: (42:30) There are other people doing that. They started a Bible study on Wednesdays at noon. I didn't lead it. I wasn't, I didn't want to because of my, my relationship there, let them do it. And there was a revival of broke out in the office. I mean people that would or were maybe born again but had become closet Christians and weren't talking about, now they're vibrant. People that didn't know Jesus were born again and their lives were transformed. All this was happening in this business setting. And, um, so I see that kind of thing happening. I like to, uh, you know, when I learned something, I want to test it out. I want to try it. And so what, what we're sharing here today has, it's not just a good sermon. Hey, I found a verse. I bet you this works like that. It's not that I had to pay a price off three years of obscurity, three years of nothing, three years, and nobody knows anything to gamble on. Speaker 2: (43:19) Is what I'm learning really going to work? Is it really going to make a difference? Is it gonna have an eternal difference? Yes, it did. Is it going to have a financial difference to the tens of millions? Yes, it did. Is it, you know, is it going to give them a higher platform? Oh yeah. Very much so and so, but I wouldn't, I didn't know that going into it. I believed it and I thought it would. Yeah, I didn't know until I actually get it. You know, when I think of Jesus, uh, one of the things, uh, I saw in the life of Jesus as to why he was so effective with people was a heat, almost every time solved a problem in somebody's life. He served them, he engaged with them, he talked to them and on, I know a lot of the principles you talk about have all those elements in it, but you know, almost every time if you read all the stories of Jesus, he saw the problem, whether it was healing or feed 5,000 or, you know, Lazarus coming out of the grave, you know, whatever the case. And that's how influence happened then, you know, so often I think the world teaches us about sales and, uh, is go in and get that order rather Speaker 1: (44:31) than taking the first step of serving the people and seeing what need they have and try to solve that need. And, and, uh, that's what you talk about in this book, uh, rainforest strategy. And so I want to encourage our, um, listeners and those watching on YouTube to download this at Michael pink, uh, download.com and you'll get an immediate download of the first two chapters. And so, uh, Michael, thanks for being with me on this, uh, podcast. I want to remind everybody if you're listening by iTunes, uh, please, um, give us a rating on that, that'll help others find us because of the positive ratings, if it's helped you. And if you're on YouTube, uh, become part of our channel is subscribed to our channeling and leave us comments at the bottom of this page so that, uh, we know, uh, if this program has been helpful and we can improve. Speaker 1: (45:32) And, uh, so Michael, why don't you give out your website to people if they want to reach you or connect with you? Sure. Well, there's two ways of course, Michael pink.com is my, my name's sake. And selling among wolves.com is a, you know, a detailed thing on my sales training. Either one of those ways, selling among wolves.com or Michael pink.com. Either one. I'd be glad to hear from them and let me know if you reach out to me, let me know that you heard about me from us cause I want to make sure that us is it where the of the support that he sent our way. And I want to bless Austin, the process. Well you can uh, see the book behind you. Hold up the book there and behind you on the shelf there. I just self your left shoulder there. This one here. Speaker 1: (46:13) Yeah. And that's the book we've been talking about. And so really well, well done by Zig Ziglar and Mark Victor Hansen, the chicken soup for the soul guy. I mean he sold over a hundred million copies. He loved this book. He said exciting minds, mindset changing ideas and a lot of good endorses on the back from big name folks. So I don't know if I told you this story, but you'll find it interesting if you don't about Zig Ziglar. So Zig Ziglar grew up in the church. I grew up in, in Columbia, South Carolina. I didn't know, I didn't know who he was. I was a child. Uh, but I had heard that later as I left, that my pastor that, um, you know, led me to the Lord, uh, knew him and he later moved to, uh, I forget where I ended up moving to. But a few years ago, uh, somebody came to me and said, OS I was in a Zig Zig Ziglar conference and somebody asked him, what do you read? And he says, well, I, I do read this one devotional called TGI F and, uh, and that, bro, that blew my mind. Wow. Um, uh, great. A great connection there. Yeah. Well thanks Michael. We will see you next time. And, uh, guys, uh, connect with Michael if you have a need in sales training or whatever, he's a great resource, so God bless you guys. Take care. Thank you. Thank you ass. Bless you, my friend. Hey guys.

Why? Because. What? What is this, fundamentally? Who? Find out! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGvg6W5rgxU