Podcasts about rainmaker platform

Ed Bardwell is the President at Rainmaker Digital Services (RMDS), the providerof the Rainmaker Platform. With clients and staff across the globe, RMDS is aglobal leader in content marketing solutions that develops marketing strategiesand technologies that help clients meet their business goals. Ed also serves as the CEO Nimble Worldwide, an integrated advertising agencybased in […] The post Ed Bardwell With Rainmaker Digital Services, LLC appeared first on Business RadioX ®.

Ed Bardwell is the President of Rainmaker Digital Services (RMDS)™ and Nimble Worldwide. RMDS is the provider of the Rainmaker Platform™, a one-stop digital solution for managing your online presence. Their sister company Nimble Worldwide is a digital marketing agency. In this interview Ed announces Rainmaker’s new Andromeda release and explains how you can use it to leverage emerging B2B marketing trends. Read the interview article.

Challenges and opportunities for content-driven business in 2019 and beyond … and a new look at a content marketing platform. Ed Bardwell, president and new owner of Rainmaker Digital Services, dropped by to talk about digital marketing and advertising, as well as content marketing and business trends that are informing site design. And he talked... Listen to episode --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/copyblogger-podcast/message

Challenges and opportunities for content-driven business in 2019 and beyond … and a new look at a content marketing platform. Ed Bardwell, president and new owner of Rainmaker Digital Services, dropped by to talk about digital marketing and advertising, as well as content marketing and business trends that are informing site design. And he talked... Listen to episode

This week, we dive in and discuss SEO-friendly tips that will make your WordPress site faster. And you don t have to take my word for it. Today s episode is based on a blog post over at Copyblogger by Loren Baker, the founder of Search Engine Journal. Listen to Site Success: Tips for Building Better WordPress Websites below ... Download MP3Subscribe by RSSSubscribe in iTunes Important links from this episode: Try StudioPress Sites Sites Weekly Newsletter Subscribe to Sites on Apple Podcasts @JerodMorris on Twitter 6 SEO Friendly Tips to Improve Site Speed on WordPress Blogs The Transcript Jerod Morris: Welcome to Sites, a podcast by the teams at StudioPress and Copyblogger. In this show, we deliver time-tested insight on the four pillars of a successful WordPress website: content, design, technology, and strategy. We want to help you get a little bit closer to reaching your online goals, one episode at a time. I m your host Jerod Morris. Sites is brought to you by StudioPress Sites — the complete hosted solution that makes WordPress fast, secure, and easy without sacrificing power or flexibility. For example, you can upload your own WordPress theme, or, you can use one of the 20 beautiful StudioPress themes that are included and just one click away. Explore all the amazing things you can do with a StudioPress Site, and you ll understand why this is way more than traditional WordPress hosting. No matter how you ll be using your site, we have a plan to fit your needs — and your budget. To learn more, visit studiopress.com/sites. That s studiopress.com/sites. Welcome back for another episode of Sites, and another week of adding a strategy to your toolbox that will help you create a powerful and successful WordPress website. Last week we discussed content — specifically, the persuasive power of analogy, and I challenged you to make your best attempt at working an analogy somewhere into your website or email copy. I hope that went well. This week, we re going to roll design, technology, and strategy all into one by discussing some proven tips that will help you improve the speed of your WordPress website. As an important bonus, these tips are all SEO-friendly. And that s important. The last thing you want to do is make an enhancement in one area of your site that has negative side effects in another area. And it makes sense — we would expect most site speed improvements to help out with SEO, because better speed leads to a better user experience, and because of the increasing importance that site speed and performance have as indicators that search engines look at. So let s dive in and discuss these SEO-friendly tips that will make your WordPress site faster. And you don t have to take my word for it. Today s episode is based on a blog post over at Copyblogger by Loren Baker, the founder of Search Engine Journal and the Vice President of Foundation Digital, an SEO & digital marketing agency. Loren was one of the early pioneers in online SEO education, and he really knows his stuff. So make sure you earmark at least one of these tips for immediate implementation on your website. Hint, hint. Call to action. Okay, without further ado, here is my reading of Loren Baker s blog post 6 SEO Friendly Tips to Improve Site Speed on WordPress Blogs. —– In the world of SEO, user experience on websites has always been a factor, as has the time it takes for a site to load. However, with the use of mobile devices surpassing desktop use (in most consumer-facing industries) and the wide adoption of broadband, people expect sites to load instantly. Long gone are the days of waiting 10 seconds for a site to load. If a page takes more than a couple of seconds to load, users will instantly hit the back button and move on to the next result. Accordingly, Google officially started paying attention to site speed and declared its importance as a factor in rankings. In order to keep up with Google s site-ranking measures, WordPress blog users need to know exactly what they can do to improve their own site speed. Remember when Google rolled out AMP (accelerated mobile pages)? They now serve up publisher content in a simplified Google-hosted experience that renders superfast. I like AMP from a user perspective because I know that AMP content will load incredibly fast on my mobile device, but as a publisher: I d rather speed up my blog and attract traffic directly to my site than have users stay on Google. If you use StudioPress Sites or the Rainmaker Platform, your site will already load quickly. However, adding ad scripts, featured images, tracking codes, 301 redirects, etc. will slow down the loading of a site and increase demand on your server/hosting company. Here are six simple tips I recommend since we used them to dramatically speed up the Search Engine Journal (SEJ) load time it s at 1.8 seconds! 1. Use a content delivery network A content delivery network (CDN) is a group of servers that deliver web pages and other content according to the location of the user, the webpage origin, and its server. It can handle heavy traffic and speeds up the delivery of content to different users. For WordPress blogs looking to improve site speed, Cloudflare is a great tool to consider. Cloudflare offers a free content delivery network that speeds up the performance of your site and optimizes it for efficiency on any device. It also offers security services that help protect websites from crawlers, bots, and other attackers. 2. Compress your images Another effective way to reduce page-load time and increase site speed is by compressing your images. A CDN will help with this, but it doesn t take care of 100 percent of the job. There are several different plugins available that compress all the images on your website and even compress new images as you upload them as well. ShortPixel is a WordPress plugin that allows you to compress both new and old images on your blog. We use it on SEJ and various other sites, and absolutely love it. It allows you to quickly compress images in batches for greater convenience, reduces the time it takes to do backups, and ensures all your processed files are kept safe and secure. The best part about it is that your image quality stays the same, regardless of the size of the image. Other image-compression plugins also maintain the quality of your pictures and improve site speed. 3. Prevent ad scripts and pop-ups from slowing down the user experience Many web pages today contain some form of third-party script that either runs ads for revenue or uses pop-ups to promote conversion. You want to build your audience and get more customers of course, but balance is key here. Although it s difficult to completely get rid of them to improve your site speed, you can tame their performance impact while keeping them on your website to provide their intended benefits. The trick is to first identify the third-party scripts that run on your site, where they come from, and how they impact your blog. You can use different real-time monitoring tools that track and identify which scripts delay your site-loading time and affect your site metrics. One of my favorite tools to do this is Pingdom s Website Speed Test, because it breaks down each file and script, and tells you which takes the most time to load. The same rule applies for pop-up plugins that you add on to your site. Knowing which ones work best to improve conversions and bring in email signups allows you to gauge which plugins to keep and which ones to uninstall. One of the fastest pop-up plugins on the market is OptinMonster (a StudioPress partner). Its founder, Syed Balkhi, is a WordPress expert who stays on top of factors like site speed and overall user experience. So those are the first three SEO-friendly tips for improving the speed of your WordPress website: Use a content delivery network Compress your images Prevent ad scripts and pop-ups from slowing down the user experience Next, we ll discuss numbers 4-6. 4. Install a caching plugin Another effective way to reduce site-loading time is by installing caching plugins onto your WordPress blog. Caching plugins work by creating a static version of your WordPress blog and delivering it to your site users and visitors, which conveniently cuts your page-loading time in half. Several cache plugins work best for WordPress, such as WP Super Cache and W3 Total Cache. These plugins are easy to install and can be disabled anytime. They allow you to select certain pages on your blog (or all of them) to cache, and offer many other content compression settings that you can turn on or off. WordPress supports many other plugins that allow you to optimize your blog to get rid of any latency in page-load time. It is important to test out these plugins to find the one that works best for you. 5. Disable plugins you don t use Tons of WordPress plugins can also make your site super slow, especially ones you don t need. It is important to review the plugins you have installed in the past and disable those that offer no significant value. Many WordPress users install different plugins when they first create their blogs to enhance how they look, but realize over time that great-looking blogs don t always attract traffic, especially if your page-loading time is slow. Also, I would highly recommend making sure your plugins are updated. This may help improve page-load speed, but more importantly, it makes your site more secure. We discussed this topic in more depth back in episode 15 of Sites. 6. Add one more layer of media optimization One thing we realized at SEJ when speeding up the site was that even after optimizing images, ad scripts, and caching, there were still multiple forms of media that slowed down load time. The internal fixes we implemented did not help with third-party media load times, such as embedded Twitter, YouTube, and Instagram content, or infographics from other sites. One solution we found to assist with that is BJ Lazy Load. Essentially, this lazy-load plugin renders all written content first, then as the user scrolls down the page, images and other forms of media load. This way, the user doesn t have to wait for tons of media to load before reading the main content. What I really like about BJ Lazy Load is that in addition to images, it also lazy loads all embeds, iFrames, and YouTube videos. For a WordPress blog that uses a lot of embeds, it was ideal for us. Bonus tip: ask your web host for help If you run a WordPress blog or WordPress-powered site, then you should work with a hosting company that specializes in WordPress, such as WP Engine, Presslabs, or StudioPress Sites. I ve worked with all three, and one thing I can absolutely tell you is that if you contact them and ask how your site can be sped up, they will help you because the faster your site is, the less the load is on their servers. As more and more people turn to mobile devices to access the internet, it is essential to optimize your blogs for mobile use and find ways to minimize page-loading time. Remember, bounce rates increase when your page-load time is slow, which impacts whether or not your content gets read or skipped for other sites that load pages faster. Okay, one more time, here are Loren Baker s six SEO-friendly steps to a better performing WordPress website: Use a content delivery network Compress your images Prevent ad scripts and pop-ups from slowing down the user experience Install a caching plugin Disable plugins you don t use Add one more layer of media optimization Bonus tip: ask your web host for help Now, stick around for this week s hyper-specific call to action. Call to action Simple CTA this week: pick one of the six, actually seven, tips and just do it. Maybe you sign up with a content delivery network. Maybe you add a plugin to compress your images. Perhaps you just email your host and ask them for tips on how to optimize your site. But take a step toward a faster site. The benefits really are endless, because, as Loren said, a faster site leads to a better user experience, which leads to fewer bounces and longer time on site, which leads to better search rankings, which leads to more visitors who are having a good experience and on and on. This is like a gift to your audience that keeps on giving — which makes it like a gift to yourself too. Okay, that s it for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode. I ll have a special guest with a special announcement about the future of the Sites podcast. In the meantime … Subscribe to Sites Weekly If you haven t yet, please take this opportunity to activate your free subscription to our curated weekly email newsletter, Sites Weekly. Each week, I find four links about content, design, technology, and strategy that you don t want to miss, and then I send them out via email on Wednesday afternoon. Reading this newsletter will help you make your website more powerful and successful. Go to studiopress.com/news and sign up in one step right there at the top of the page. That s studiopress.com/news. Rate and Review Sites on Apple Podcasts And finally, if you enjoy the Sites podcast, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts (formerly known as iTunes), and consider giving us a rating or a review over there as well. One quick tip on that: to make the best use of your review, let me know something in particular you like about the show. That feedback is really important. To find us in Apple Podcasts, search for StudioPress Sites and look for the striking purple logo that was designed by Rafal Tomal. Or you can also go to the URL sites.fm/apple and it will redirect you to our Apple Podcasts page. And with that, we come to the close of another episode. Thank you for listening to this episode of Sites. I appreciate you being here. Join me next time, and let s keep building powerful, successful WordPress websites together. This episode of sites was brought to you by StudioPress Sites, which was awarded Fastest WordPress Hosting of 2017 in an independent speed test . If you want to make WordPress fast, secure, and easy — and, I mean, why wouldn t you — visit studiopress.com/sites today and see which plan fits your needs. That s studiopress.com/sites.

"The truth is I didn't like working for somebody else." Most entrepreneurs start their own business because they want to take charge of their own destiny, and for Brian Clark, the CEO and founder of Rainmaker Digital, Copyblogger, StudioPress, and the Rainmaker Platform, his story doesn't start off any different. It doesn't matter if you haven't heard of Clark before, but if you've been anywhere near the startup space in the past 15 years or so, you've undoubtedly felt his influence. With his first successful business he stuck with what he knew, taking his four years of experience in law and starting his own small law firm. He quickly set himself apart from the rest of the competition with his natural marketing instincts and his ability to build an audience. "What most young attorneys can't do is develop clients, and I figured out how to do that. And in that moment an entrepreneur was born. I was just so amazed that I could develop a business by myself with just an email newsletter. No one understood what I was doing at the time, they thought I was crazy, but it worked!" Clark says. A few years, and a couple more businesses later, Clark began working on a small blog that would come to be known as Copyblogger, one of the most influential content marketing blogs in the industry. Some of the world's top content marketers can fondly remember turning to Copyblogger early in their careers to learn how to write better headlines and become better writers. Clark helped blaze the trail for this new style of marketing, and to this day, he's still pushing the boundaries of what is possible. While most people are still trying to figure out whether to focus on building the perfect product or growing their audience, Clark has devised a strategy that's allowed him to do both at the same time, all while growing his multiple businesses at warp speed. It should really come as no surprise that, here at Foundr, much of our own business model and content marketing efforts have been directly inspired by Clark and his successes. This is why we're very excited to present to you this eye-opening interview with the one and only Brian Clark. In this episode you will learn: The chicken or the egg? Settling the startup debate between which comes first: building the perfect product or building your audience What are you good at? How Clark finds co-founders who complement his strengths and weaknesses The unique business model of combining content, SaaS, digital and physical products for maximum profit Clark's step-by-step instructions on how to build the perfect product Why people aren't paying attention to your brand and what you can do about it & so much more!

In this episode of Sites, we revisit a classic post from Sonia Simone that lists and describes 10 content marketing goals that are worth pursuing. Which ones are you already pursuing? Which ones should you add to your mix? Listen and find out. Listen to Site Success: Tips for Building Better WordPress Websites below ... Download MP3Subscribe by RSSSubscribe in iTunes Important links from this episode: @JerodMorris on Twitter Try StudioPress Sites Sites Weekly Newsletter Subscribe to Sites on Apple Podcasts 10 Content Marketing Goals Worth Pursuing The Transcript Jerod Morris: Welcome to Sites, a podcast by the teams at StudioPress and Copyblogger. In this show, we deliver time-tested insight on the four pillars of a successful WordPress website: content, design, technology, and strategy. We want to help you get a little bit closer to reaching your online goals, one episode at a time. I m your host Jerod Morris. Sites is brought to you by StudioPress Sites — the complete hosted solution that makes WordPress fast, secure, and easy without sacrificing power or flexibility. For example, you can upload your own WordPress theme, or, you can use one of the 20 beautiful StudioPress themes that are included and just one click away. Explore all the amazing things you can do with a StudioPress Site, and you ll understand why this is way more than traditional WordPress hosting. No matter how you ll be using your site, we have a plan to fit your needs — and your budget. To learn more, visit studiopress.com/sites. That s studiopress.com/sites. Welcome to Episode 8 of Sites. Last week we talked about technology and did quite a deep dive into SEO. That means that this week we come to the conclusion of our second full cycle through our four pillars of a successful website: content, design, technology, and strategy. And I know what you re thinking from looking at the title of this episode: strategy? But isn t this about content? Yes. It s about strategy and content. Just like last week, when we discussed SEO, it was really about strategy and technology (and, in some ways, content and design too). As I mentioned when we launched this podcast, and first explained these four pillars that will guide our content, overlap is inevitable. And that is okay. The goal is simply to make sure we don t miss anything essential. It s certainly not going to hurt us if we double up or triple up or even quadruple our focus on these important concepts in any one episode. Plus, as you ll see, while some of the 10 goals we re going to discuss in this episode deal specifically with actual blog content, others don t — #7 especially. And that s why I chose to cover this topic for one of our strategy episodes. Because if you aren t pursuing at least one of these content marketing goals, and probably many more, you clearly don t have a defined strategy for your website that is going to lead you in a positive direction. Chances are, you are indeed following one or several of these goals. But might there be a new one you could add to the mix? Or might hearing these ideas spark a new one in your mind? I sure hope so. This week s episode is based on an article that was originally written by Sonia Simone for Copyblogger. It is called 10 Content Marketing Goals Worth Pursuing. Let s get to it 10 Content Marketing Goals Worth Pursuing Ever wonder why content marketing works so well for some businesses but doesn t seem to do anything at all for others? Curious about why some content that seems great doesn t do anything to build a business? Content is king has been an online cliché for years now, but it s not true. It s never been true. Content all by itself even terrific content is just content. It may be entertaining. It may be educational. It may contain the secret to world peace and fresh, minty breath, all rolled into one. But it has no magical powers. It won t transform your business or get you where you need to go, until you add one thing Content marketing is a meaningless exercise without business goals. So what makes content marketing work? To make content work, you need to understand your marketing and business goals. Then you can create content that serves those goals, instead of just giving your audience something to pass the time. Your blog posts, email marketing, ebooks, podcasts, advertising all of it needs to fit into a larger picture. Now, if you blog purely for creative self-expression, go ahead and write as the spirit moves you. But if you re using content to market a business, you need a strategic framework so you can get the most out of your time and hard work. Here are 10 of the business goals that drive our content marketing at Rainmaker Digital. You might focus on just one or two, or you may use all 10. As you listen to this episode, see which of these you can apply to your own content marketing plan. Goal #1: Build trust and rapport with your audience This is the most obvious use of content marketing, and it s a good one. When you create useful, interesting, and valuable content, your audience learns they can trust you. They see that you know your topic. They get a sense of your personality and what it would be like to work with you. Lack of trust kills conversion. An abundance of valuable content builds trust like nothing else. But too many marketers stop there. In fact, it s just the beginning. Goal #2: Attract new prospects to your marketing system We all had it drilled into our heads by Mr. Godin when we were just baby content marketers: You have to be remarkable. Your content has to be compelling enough that it attracts links, social media sharing, and conversation. Why? Because that s how new people find you. No matter how delightful your existing customers are, you need a steady stream of new prospects to keep your business healthy. Remarkable content that gets shared around the web will find your best new prospects for you and lead them back to everything you have to offer. Goal #3: Explore prospect pain No, you re not doing this to be a sadist. The fact is, most enduring businesses thrive because they solve problems. They solve health problems, parenting problems, money problems, business problems, technology problems, What should I make for dinner? problems. When you understand your prospect s problems, you understand how to help them and then you have the core of your marketing message. Strategic content dives into the problems your prospects are facing. What annoys them? What frightens them? What keeps them awake at night? A smart content marketing program leaves room for audience questions. These might come in email replies, blog comments, or you may hold Q&A sessions or webinars specifically to solicit questions. Listen to the problems your market asks you about, and use those as a compass to guide your future content. Goal #4: Illustrate benefits Obviously, we don t dig up prospect problems and leave it at that. We talk about solutions. We talk about what fixes those annoying problems. Techniques, tips, tricks, methods, approaches. If you have a viable business, you have a particular take on solving your market s problems. Your individual approach is the flesh and blood of your content marketing. Your 10 Ways to Solve Problem X post shows the benefits of your approach. It illustrates how you solve problems and shows customers what they get out of working with you. Strategic content doesn t just tell a prospect My product is a good way to solve your problem. It shows them. And that s a cornerstone persuasion technique. Goal #5: Overcome objections Your prospect is looking for ways to solve his problem, but he s also keeping an eye out for potential problems. Strategic content can be a superb way to address prospect objections the reasons they don t buy. Is price a pain point? Write content that demonstrates how implementing your solutions saves money in the long run. Do your customers think your product will be too complicated to use? Write content that shows customers going from zero to sixty painlessly. Understand the objections that keep customers from buying, and then think about creative ways to resolve those objections in content often before the buyer ever gets to that sales page. Goal #6: Paint the picture of life with your product Ad-man Joe Sugarman was one of the great early practitioners of content marketing. He was a master of long-copy magazine ads for his company JS&A (a consumer gadget company) ads that were often as interesting and compelling as the magazine articles they appeared next to. In his Copywriting Handbook, he described how he might approach writing an ad for a Corvette. Feel the breeze blowing through your hair as you drive through the warm evening. Watch heads turn. Punch the accelerator to the floor and feel the burst of power that pins you into the back of your contour seat. Look at the beautiful display of electronic technology right on your dashboard. Feel the power and excitement of America s super sports car. Sugarman isn t describing the car. He s describing the experience of the driver. Sugarman was a master at mentally putting the customer into the experience of owning the product whether that product was a pocket calculator, a private jet, or a multi-million dollar mansion. It works very nicely in an ad. It works even better in your content. Storytelling is one of the best content marketing strategies, and it s a superb way to let customers mentally try out your offer before they ever experience it for themselves. Use content to show what it s like to own your product or use your service. Case studies are terrific for this, as are any stories that show how your approach to problem-solving works. Pick up Sugarman s book for lots of ideas about how to create fascinating content for products that might not immediately suggest a fascinating story. Goal #7: Attract strategic partners Once upon a time, Copyblogger was one writer. No software business. No marketing education business. No Authority, no Rainmaker Platform, no premium WordPress themes from StudioPress, no super-fast and secure WordPress hosting with StudioPress Sites, no Digital Commerce Institute, no Rainmaker.FM you get the idea. From very early days, the quality of the content posted here has attracted strategic partners the partners Brian Clark worked with to create every line of revenue-generating business we have today. Eventually, that evolved into the creation of a new company Rainmaker Digital (formerly Copyblogger Media). The partnership brings together a great complement of skills, and together we can go farther and faster than Brian could have on his own. Whatever your business goals are, partnerships are often the smartest way to get there. When you re passionate about creating excellent content, you ll find that potential partners are attracted to that passion. Goal #8: Deepen loyalty with existing customers This one is probably my favorite. Every company needs to attract new customers. But the biggest growth potential in most businesses comes from building a tighter relationship with your existing customers. A solid base of referral and repeat business is the hallmark of a great business. Even if you never did any content marketing to anyone other than your customers, you could radically improve your business by improving the communication you have with your customers today. Create a richer experience for the people who have already bought from you. Make your products and services work better by pairing them with useful, user-friendly content. Don t treat the waitress better than you do your date. Give great stuff to the people who have already bought from you, and they ll reward you for it. Goal #9: Develop new business ideas Your content stream is a fantastic place to try out new ideas. Thinking about repositioning your key product? Trying to better define your unique selling proposition? See a new problem on the horizon that your customers might want you to solve? Get those ideas into your content, and see how people react. You can watch what excites people and what fizzles out. Business writer Jim Collins talks about firing bullets, then cannonballs. In other words, when you get a new idea for your business, fire off something low-risk to test the waters. Don t start firing your big ammunition until you re sure you can actually hit the target. (And that there s a target there to hit.) Content is an amazing low-risk way to try out your ideas while risking very little. Your audience will let you know with their reactions which ideas fire them up and which ones leave them cold. Goal #10: Build your reputation with search engines Lots of content creators think this is reason #1 to create content but if you put this goal in the wrong place, you ll probably struggle with SEO. That s because search engines find you valuable when readers find you valuable. Search engines are looking for content that s valuable to their users. If you create that type of content, your SEO battle is 9/10 done. So put the first nine content marketing goals first, and the 10th becomes a matter of relatively simple SEO optimization. Stick around this week s hyper-specific call to action is coming up. Again, that was a reading of Sonia Simone s blog post 10 Content Marketing Goals Worth Pursuing, originally published at Copyblogger.com. You can find a link to the original article in the show notes at studiopress.blog/sites08. Now to this week s hyper-specific call to action … Call to action Answer this simple question: What s the main thing you re looking to get out of content marketing? What is your goal? To be more specific, what is your business goal? Because as Sonia said in her post, Content marketing is a meaningless exercise without business goals. And, as with all these goals, don t just think about it. Write it down. In your journal, on a piece of paper, in Evernote, in an email to yourself — that s actually what I usually do when I m listening to a podcast and think of something important. I shoot off a quick email to myself so that I m forced to see the idea again when I process that email. That works for me, it may not work for you, but just an idea. The point is: think about this question, experience your answer through the act of recording it, and then actually take some action on it. So if your goal is #6 from Sonia s post, paint the picture of life without your product, then really work on getting into the shoes of your audience and then telling a compelling story that will help them experience what life will be like with you or without you, depending on the context. Actually write that blog post. Or if your goal is #2, to attract new prospects to your marketing system, then get content out there that will do that and, of course, have a marketing system for them to opt into. Get your email list going, have an autoresponder, make offers, etc. You get the idea. Again, this week s question: What s the main thing you re looking to get out of content marketing? What is your goal? Write it down. And you know what? Do something else with it. Tweet it to me. @JerodMorris. J-E-R-O-D-M-O-R-R-I-S. I want to know. And if you have a goal that we didn t discuss in this episode, all the better! Send that to me too. We re now 8 episodes into this podcast. Let s start to get to know each other a bit, shall we? Send me a tweet. Let me know your answer to this week s CTA. I want to know. Coming next week, we go back to the beginning. After two complete cycles through our four pillars of content, design, technology, and strategy, we re back at content. And that means we take the next step in our series on content marketing strategy that Brian Clark outlined. We ll be exploring how to know exactly WHAT content to deliver to convert more prospects. It dovetails nicely with this week s episode, because who among us doesn t list among our content marketing goals: convert more prospects? Hopefully we all do! That will be a great discussion. Don t miss it. That s next week, on Sites. Finally, before I go, here are two more quick calls to action for you to consider: Subscribe to Sites Weekly If you haven t yet, please take this opportunity to activate your free subscription to our curated weekly email newsletter, Sites Weekly. Here s how it works: Each week, I find four links about content, design, technology, and strategy that you don t want to miss, and then I send them out via email on Wednesday afternoon. Reading this newsletter will help you make your website more powerful and successful. Go to studiopress.com/news and sign up in one step right there at the top of the page. That s studiopress.com/news. Oh, and I should mention, we occasionally include special offers in these emails too — stuff that isn t otherwise marketed publicly. So if you like StudioPress products, keep your eye out for special deals in your Sites Weekly email. Again, it s studiopress.com/news. Rate and Review Sites on Apple Podcasts And finally, if you enjoy the Sites podcast, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts (formerly known as iTunes), and consider giving us a rating or a review over there as well. One quick tip on that: to make the best use of your review, let me know something in particular you like about the show. That feedback is really important. For example, here is a recent review we received, from gembrechts: This show came in the exact moment I needed it. Although I have owned and operated a few businesses, this is my first dip into content marketing. So everything they are converting is the information I need to take in and internalize. Funny, I just love the music on this site. It is very uplifting. Thank you gembrechts. First off, it s great to know that you find this show at a time when it can make a huge impact for you. That s the reason we started it. And secondly, can I just tell you how much I appreciate the kind words about the music? I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to identify the perfect songs for every podcast I host. I actually really enjoy the process. And I ve never felt more enthusiastic about the intro and outro music for a show than for this one. So I m so glad you like it! By the way, I found the music at Premium Beat. It s a good resource if you re looking for podcast music and willing to pay a little bit for it. Anyway — to find us in Apple Podcasts, search for StudioPress Sites and look for the striking purple logo that was designed by Rafal Tomal. You can also go to the URL sites.fm/apple and it will redirect you to our Apple Podcasts page. And with that, we come to the close of another episode. Thank you for listening to this episode of Sites. I appreciate you being here. Join me next week, and let s keep building powerful, successful websites together. This episode of sites was brought to you by StudioPress Sites, which was awarded Fastest WordPress Hosting of 2017 in an independent speed test . If you want to make WordPress fast, secure, and easy — and, I mean, why wouldn t you — visit studiopress.com/sites today and see which plan fits your needs. That s studiopress.com/sites.

Today I'm joined by someone who creates educational content and digital products that help people develop and grow rewarding, profitable online businesses. He’s the VP of Marketing for Rainmaker Digital. Welcome to DMR, Jerod Morris. On this episode of Digital Marketing Radio we discuss how to engage and retain your audience, with topics including: If you produce outstanding content on a regular basis, is that not enough by itself to engage and retain an audience? What do you mean by engaging your audience - is it important to interact with your audience? What are some of the more effective ways to interact with your audience at the moment? What kind of content is particularly effective for you at the moment? How has your content changed over the past year and how are you intending for it to change over the coming year? What kind of mistakes are you seeing other business make with their content at the moment? What about retaining your audience - what are some of the ways that you’re doing that? Is it paramount to ask your audience to opt-in to an email list? [Tweet ""Do whatever you can to balance your pride and your humility." @JerodMorris from @RainmakerHQ"] Software I couldn't live without What software do you currently use in your business that if someone took away from you, it would significantly impact your marketing success? GarageBand [Audio editing for Mac] Auphonic [Automatic post production editing] Rainmaker Platform [Digital marketing & sales platform] What software don't you use, but you've heard good things about, and you've intended to try at some point in the near future? vMix [Live video editing and broadcasting] BeLive [Live interviews to Facebook] My number 1 takeaway What's the single most important step from our discussion that our listeners need to take away and implement in their businesses? Do whatever you can to balance your pride and your humility, which I think is the most important skill set you can have in building an audience. I think that you always have to have pride in your message, and enough pride in that you believe in what you're saying and that you're going to get it out there - even when you're a little bit afraid and when someone tells you that you're wrong or it's stupid. That pride in what you have to say is going to keep you moving forward. But at the same time, if that runs rampant, and all you're worried about is what you have to say in your message, you're forgetting about the humility you need in order to step into your audience's shoes and realise that your message is only as effective, only as valuable as the impact that it has on them.

Episode 59 of Landscape Digital Show reveals the 4 most important SEO ranking factors according to leading SEO industry studies. Today we’re going to examine the top SEO ranking factors for 2017 that every business needs to know if it expects its website to rank well right now — and hopefully for years to come. […] The post SEO Ranking Factors: How to Win with Google in 2017 appeared first on Landscape Digital Institute.

This is a special edition of the show where we take a glimpse behind the scenes at how we produce the program, and the people responsible for it. As Rainmaker.FM approaches it’s 2nd anniversary, I thought it apropos to examine how we got here. This is going to be fun! It may seem like I’m just a guy in a garage – like so many podcasters – who interviews writers and then frantically scrambles to produce the show in the margins of my real job as a multimedia producer for Rainmaker Digital. I do host and help produce the show of course, but I don’t record it in my garage, sorry. But you will learn how and where I do it. This week I also get the rare opportunity to shine a light on my talented production team and how this all happens. Note: The conclusion of my chat with screenwriter and author of All Our Wrong Todays, Elan Mastai will be published Feb. 7th, the day his new book comes out. If you’re a fan of The Writer Files, please click subscribe to automatically see new interviews. In this episode our production team and I talk about: How the show made the jump from a written interview to a podcast format with Robert Bruce The process we use to book our writers with Caroline Early How I research, record interviews, and write for the show’s website Why the raw audio for the shows needs a little massaging from a pro audio engineer with Toby Lyles How it all comes together to beam to your phone or desktop, and nestle neatly in your ears with Clare Garrett Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Begin your free, 14-day trial of the Rainmaker Platform and start building your own digital marketing and sales platform today at Rainmaker.FM/Platform StudioPress.com Unusually Short Stories at RobertBruce.com Proust Questionnaire – Wikipedia Here’s How Brian Clark Writes – The inaugural issue of The Writer Files Longform Podcast #226: Terry Gross ScheduleOnce.com – Scheduling platform Caroline Early on Twitter Shure SM7B Vocal Dynamic Microphone, Cardioid Auralex soundproofing Call Recorder for Skype Zencastr.com How Oscar Nominee Emma Donoghue (Screenwriter of ‘Room’) Writes: Part One How Bestselling Author Hugh Howey Writes TwentyFourSound – The premier podcast network editing service The Learn Podcast Production Podcast – TwentyFourSound Adobe Audition CC GarageBand for Mac Audacity – Free, open source, cross-platform audio software for multi-track recording and editing Trello – Workflow collaboration tool Rafal Tomal – Lead Designer at Rainmaker Digital Rev.com – Transcription service Kibin.com – Editing service Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript Behind the Scenes: How ‘The Writer Files’ Is Produced Voiceover: Rainmaker.FM. Kelton Reid: Welcome back to The Writer Files. I am your host, Kelton Reid. In this special edition of the show, we’re going to take a glimpse behind the scenes at how we produce the program and the people responsible for it. As Rainmaker.FM approaches its second anniversary, I thought it apropos to examine exactly how we got here. This is going to be fun. It may seem like I’m just a guy in a garage, like so many podcasters, who interviews writers and then frantically scrambles to produce the show in the margins of my real job as a multimedia producer for Rainmaker Digital. I do host and help produce the show, of course, but I don’t record it in my garage, I’m sorry. You will learn exactly where and how I do it. This week, I also get the rare opportunity to shine a light on my talented production team and how this all happens. The conclusion of my chat with screenwriter and author of All Our Wrong Todays, Elan Mastai, will be published February 7th, the day his new book comes out. But in this episode of The Writer Files, our production team and I talk about how the show made the jump from a written interview to a podcast format, the process we use to book our writers, how I research, record interviews, and write for the show’s website, why the raw audio of the show needs a little massaging from a pro audio engineer, and how it all comes together to beam to your phone or desktop and nestle neatly into your ears. If you are a fan of the show, please click Subscribe to automatically see new interviews as soon as they are published. A quick reminder that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete solution for digital marketing and sales. Grow your audience and email list faster. Build profitable marketing automation, clear landing pages, podcasts networks, and membership programs. Sell online courses, digital products, and much more. The Rainmaker Platform helps you to focus on your business and stop worrying about the technology you need to succeed. Start building your own digital marketing sales platform today. Begin your free 14-day trial at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. Thanks for listening. How the Show Made the Jump From a Written Interview to a Podcast Format, with Robert Bruce Kelton Reid: That brings me to my very first guest on this special addition of The Writer Files, Robert Bruce, the man partly, or I should say mostly responsible for the existence and genesis of this show and a coworker and confidant. As you know, Robert, I like saying ‘confidant.’ It just kind of rolls off the tongue. Robert Bruce: It’s a great word, man. Kelton Reid: Yeah, thank you. Robert Bruce: It’s almost communistic. Oh, no, that would be commandant, right? Kelton Reid: No. Robert Bruce: What’s the communist word for … ‘comrade.’ Kelton Reid: Comrade. Robert Bruce: That’s not quite comrade. Are you a communist, Kelton? Kelton Reid: No. I have read The Communist Manifesto. Robert Bruce: Who hasn’t. Kelton Reid: Just out of sheer curiosity. Robert Bruce: Just pure intellectual curiosity, yeah, right. Kelton Reid: Sure. That’s something they make you read in … Robert Bruce: In southern California grade school. Kelton Reid: That’s right. So who are you, Robert? What do you do? Give us a little brief bio, specifically what have you done for this podcast and/or podcasting in general. Robert Bruce: I think, and you might have to refresh my memory … well, okay, who am I? Right now, man, there’s so much going on in this place. I recently switched some roles. I’m working with StudioPress. I think my title is vice president of marketing. We’re not big on titles in this company. Working a lot on StudioPress stuff, which was a switch for almost two years or a year and a half of working on Rainmaker.FM, but obviously, I’m jumping in and out of that as well, a little bit. We’re about to release a big product, so I’m back to copyrighting for the first time in a number of years, which has been an interesting thing. That’s what I’m doing right now, and that will broaden into more of content strategy and creating stuff for StudioPress and working with Brian Gardner more directly. Then by night, I write unusually short stories at RobertBruce.com. Kelton Reid: That’s right. Robert Bruce: Did you like my pitch, my plug there? Kelton Reid: I did. I do love those unusually short stories. I know that you have a penchant for going in and out of KnifeGunPen.com, also? Robert Bruce: Yeah. I’m toying around with this site idea. It’s been years, and I don’t know what I want to do with it. The first thing I ever wanted to be was a detective, when I was a kid. I’ve always a thing, like just about any American, we all love crime and noir and crime culture. We’re, as adults, addicted to crime television, so I’ve got this idea for this site and this domain. It was the first domain I bought 10 years ago actually. Kelton Reid: Wow. Robert Bruce: It’s just not gelling at the moment, but we’ll see. Kelton Reid: Okay. Let’s go back a little bit. I wanted to get you on here first to talk about how this show came into being, the idea behind The Writer Files initially, which was not a podcast, and the ethos that created this show in particular. Where did The Writer Files come from? Do you remember? Robert Bruce: Yes. This is started as a text, in the form of text. I don’t remember how early you and I talked about it, but like so many, I always loved, one of my favorite things, great magazine Vanity Fair and one of the best, if not the best to me, section or recurring section in that magazine was the very back page, little thing called the Proust Questionnaire, as in Marcel Proust, the French essayist. In Vanity Fair, it was the same questions every time, but they would rotate through this amazing cast of world-class writers, actors, philosophers, and business people, asking them this series of questions. I should have done a little research because I don’t know if there was a purpose, other than just interest in why these particular questions were compiled in the Proust Questionnaire. It was unendingly fascinating, and like I said, to me, it was my favorite part of that magazine and, in large part, still is. The idea just came. This is, a lot of people have riffed on that over the years, both in text and audio. I’m going to sneeze, I know it. Sorry, man. Kelton Reid: Don’t apologize to me. Apologize to Toby. Robert Bruce: Sorry, Toby. I guess it’s not going to happen. Okay. Kelton Reid: I think you should leave that in. Robert Bruce: I might as well. So yeah, that was kind of the genesis of the idea. Obviously, we wanted to tweak it toward our audience at Copyblogger. On Copyblogger.com do you remember the date? I don’t know. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Four years ago, almost to the day, when we published that first experimental episode with Mr. Brian Clark, our humble leader. Brian Clark, the CEO of Rainmaker Digital was my first victim and, from there, kind of had a cavalcade of pretty interesting writers on. Robert Bruce: Yeah, you got some big time … well, one thing I want to say, too, this was really perfect. At that time, you and I were with Brian and Sonia, we needed to come up with stuff, weekly, on top of everything else we were doing for the job. I don’t know how you felt when this idea came around, but to me, it was like, “Oh, this is perfect.” I don’t know why I gave it to you because it would have been the perfect thing for me to do and get out of having to write a weekly article. Kelton Reid: I know. Robert Bruce: It’d be really useful and interesting hopefully to our audience as well. But anyway, you took it. You ran with it, masterfully. Kelton Reid: Oh thank you. Robert Bruce: You developed the questions, redeveloped them, and over time, brought in a bunch of stuff. Now, you’ve got this massive Rolodex of superstars across the globe who are clamoring to talk to you. But you’re right. Over the years, you’ve got some names listed here. You’re looking at Seth Godin, Austin Kleon, Maria Popova. Kelton Reid: Sure, yeah. Those are early days. It was like Dan Pink. When Liz Gilbert popped in there to do that, that was pretty fun. Okay. You actually really did help me to develop the Q&A — which as you said, is the Proust Questionnaire kind of meets Inside the Actors Studio, as I describe it sometimes — to kind of get into the brains. Robert Bruce: Yes. Kelton Reid: I think that at least the original idea was to get a glimpse of the process, of the writer’s life, the writing life. It just grew. It became its own thing. I think originally Proust Questionnaire was like a parlor game to kind of loosen the mood and get people to talk personally about themselves, but pithy, short questions were always initially our idea. It was like one-word answers were fine. Robert Bruce: Right, short answers. Yup. Kelton Reid: Okay. Let’s talk about, moving forward, the process itself was I was coming up with these queries for authors and/or their handlers, publicists, if I could find them, and then sending the questions by email, with the caveat … Jonny Naster, host of Hack the Entrepreneur and The Showrunner had recently asked me, “How did you generate this written content? Was it an audio format first?” It wasn’t. It was all via email. I was saying to some of these publicists, they can answer as many or as few questions as they’d like. It was broken into the five pieces: the origin story, productivity, workflow, creativity, and some goofy ones. Now, it is a podcast. How did it come to be a podcast on a podcast network that you built from scratch, with this great team that I’m talking with today, that has now published and produced over 1,300 shows, coming up on the second anniversary of Rainmaker.FM? It’s a lot of content. How did this show, The Writer Files, make that jump from page to ears? Robert Bruce: Well, I think the shortest answer is the four of us built a podcast network, and we needed a podcast. Right? We needed content. I think, initially, you and I started talking about it. We had hoped that it would become, “Oh, it’s perfect.” Like you said, Inside The Actors Studio, it’s this great interview format. This would make for a great podcast, and it continues to serve our audience of writers, bloggers, journalists, and those people. You’ve expanded that in the audio format even more, talking to some pretty heavy-hitter neuroscientists, philosophers, and all these. This is probably a good lesson for anybody listening that is doing this struggle of producing content on a regular basis. In our case, we built this podcast network and were looking around for shows, for formats, for hosts, and this and that. Kelton, you’ve had experience on air. You’ve got a great voice, and you had the willingness to do it. We’re looking around, and it’s like, “Oh, wait a minute. That’s something that we could pull over this way.” In a way, it turned out to repurpose as well. I think it’s really cool as text, but you just can’t deny how cool it is, especially, as a listener, if you’re into the person that’s being interviewed, as with any podcast or any radio interview, it’s like, man, to be able to hear that person actually talk is pretty sweet. Then, I don’t know exactly where you want to go here, but Caroline Early came on. She’s been booking guests because it’s so much work, and you’ve got so much to do outside of this show, just for your day job, that you obviously needed help booking guests. Man, you guys have just been really expanding the guest list here in a way that I never, in some cases, I never thought possible and never even thought about. That’s been cool to see, too. Kelton Reid: For sure, yeah. It’s just been a pleasure and an honor to work with both of you, all of you, the whole team, obviously, have put together some pretty amazing workflows, which we’re going to talk with both Caroline, Clare, and Toby coming up. We’re going to segue into that, all of that. You have been a guest on the show. How was that for you? Robert Bruce: It was not great. Kelton Reid: You were in a Writer Porn episode. I’ve been trying to get you to do … Robert Bruce: Oh, yeah, right. That was fun. Is the novel dead? Kelton Reid: Yes, one of my faves. Robert Bruce: Yeah, that was a good conversation. I think that was good, too. It’s another maybe lesson for people is there was some contentious back and forth, and not anything hardcore, but it was great because you don’t want everybody saying, “Yeah, right. I agree. I agree. I agree.” You want to have a little difference of opinion whenever you can get it. Makes things interesting. I enjoyed that. Was that the only time, those two episodes? Kelton Reid: I think you’ve been on twice, but I am wracking my brain as we are at episode 80 plus here. I’m having a hard time remembering, but will you return? That’s the question on everybody’s mind? Robert Bruce: For the right amount of money, Kelton, I will return. I don’t know what you’re budget is these days. Kelton Reid: Okay. I’m going to have you get in get in touch with my accountant regarding the fees. Sorry, my lawyer. Okay. I don’t have either of those. Robert Bruce: I will return any time you ask me, yes. Kelton Reid: Okay, great. Well, we look forward to more Writer Porn in the future. The Process We Use to Book Our Writers, with Caroline Early Kelton Reid: That brings me to my next guest, the esteemed associate producer for Rainmaker.FM and this show, Caroline Early, who luckily has been with us from the start to really ensure booking all of our great guests. Caroline, thank you for stepping away from your … I heard you were on a horrible, horrible cruise, but that you stepped away to do this interview with us. Thank you. Caroline Early: No problem. I’m happy to be here. There’s nothing better, I guess, than being on vacation, but it feels good to be home. Kelton Reid: Yeah, I’m sure. You were in the Caribbean? Caroline Early: I was actually, but the boat was a little bit more of a fun music boat, instead of really getting off the boat at all. I was actually just on the cruise for five days, didn’t leave. We only stopped one time, and I didn’t even bother getting off. Kelton Reid: Oh, my. Caroline Early: Can’t complain. Kelton Reid: I’m so sorry. Caroline Early: I know. Kelton Reid: Let’s talk about you and what you do for Rainmaker and specifically for this show to start out. Caroline Early: Yeah, sure. As you said, I’m the associate producer for Rainmaker FM, which I think that title definitely makes sense for what I do on Rainmaker.FM, but I do also work on all of Rainmaker Digital, primarily on the outreach and PR side of things, help schedule guests for webinars, help schedule guests for these shows. Really anybody that’s coming on to any Rainmaker.FM show is booked through me. It’s pretty time consuming, but it’s a fun job to be able to feel like I’m not only just talking to all you Rainmaker people all day. I get to correspond with people all over the place, all around the world. It’s a really fun part of my job. Kelton Reid: Yeah. You also have your own project, your own blog out there also. Caroline Early: I do. It’s called Your Whole You . It’s sort of healthy lifestyle blog. As with any side project, it ebbs and flows. Lately, it’s been a little bit on the down side, but that’s not to say that it won’t be back up here pretty soon. We’ll see how that goes. Kelton Reid: Cool. Well, how did you find yourself working on The Writer Files, in particular? Caroline Early: Well, obviously, when I came on board, I started helping out with the PR outreach side of all the shows. I think in talking with you, it was clear that it’s a pretty time-consuming job to find and track down guests for these shows. You have to not only be digging around and finding interesting people, but then you have to figure out how to talk to them and how to get in touch with them. In talking with you and then working on it, I think it made sense with my background in PR and what else I was doing for Rainmaker to start helping you with that. I’m not just saying this because I’m on your show, but I would say that The Writer Files is probably my favorite thing to pitch and to work on. These authors are just the nicest people. They’re always so flattered and honored to be selected or to be invited on the show, so it’s just really, really nice to be able to talk with people who are just really excited to be a part of it. Kelton Reid: That’s cool to hear. I think some writers and listeners might wonder how we choose guests to come on the show. Let’s talk a little bit about that before we get into specifically how we track them down. How do we decide where we find our guests? Caroline Early: Well, I think, luckily, you and I, and Robert as well, are all sort of book nerds, so we’re already in the world of novels. I think one benefit is that we all seem to have different interests. I think that we all like different things, which helps us be aware of plenty of different authors that are out there. There’s a lot of research that goes on, just on the back end, trying to figure out what we like and who’s, not necessarily popular, but maybe who’s coming out with something new in the next couple of months. You have been grateful enough to provide me with a wish list, which is always helpful to see what people you’re really interested in talking to. We do use Trello for that, which is nice to be able to keep track of everything. Obviously, we send a lot of emails between the three or four of us, just to figure out who’s reading what and who maybe heard of somebody on some other show or a news story that we heard about someone. That’s definitely a piece of it. Then, the other side of it, too, is some publicist recommendations. Now that we’ve been doing this for a couple of years, we’ll correspond with a publicist about one author, and they’ll say, “Hey, this was really great. How about this other person?” That’s been helpful, too, because they have people that they want to put out there. Sometimes it’s a good fit. Sometimes it’s not. But there’s a lot of different avenues to be able to find different people. Kelton Reid: For sure. We’re really looking for, as we crowdsource these ideas, writers with inspiring stories that are of particular interest to writing right now. It’s a survey. We’re not just going for fictionists or scientists, etc. We’re trying to get a little bit of everything in there for listeners. Anyway, it’s a pretty fascinating process. So how do you track down a celebrity author? I think people might be curious. Robert might liken it to witchcraft, but how do we find these people when they so often do not want to be found? They just want to be writing really. Caroline Early: Right. And sometimes it feels that way. I will say it starts with a lot of Googling because, like you said, some of these people, I think they want to just exist in this other universe, where they’re not ever spoken to. It can be interesting to even find a website. There are several authors who the only websites they actually have are their publicists page. They don’t even have their own site. So there’s a lot of Googling involved to maybe find some sort of fan page, Facebook Page, whatever it is. If they are nice enough to have a website, sometimes they’re even nice enough to put their personal email. That’s really a good starting point. If I can find their personal email, that’s usually what I reach out to. I try to be somewhat clear. If someone says on their page specifically, “Please don’t reach out to me for publicity requests and find my publicist.” I really do try to honor that. I don’t want to bother them with these kind of requests. There’s that. There’s also a contact page. We’ve had really good luck with contact pages honestly. I think authors do appreciate getting notes from people. Every time I’ve had to use one of those it’s worked out. Then I think the worst-case scenario that I’ve had to do so far is just try to guess emails because so many people’s is just their name @whateversite.com. It’s fairly easy to find. That one always makes me feel a little bit weird because you can tell they’re really trying to hide, and then here I am Googling and trying to guess whatever potential email they’ll have. Fortunately, we’ve had no one be offended or no one be mad that we tried to email them. Every single person we’ve had has just been really, really excited about being on the show. That’s, I think, helped me to feel more empowered to be able to email more people. You can tell that they’re just really, really excited. Kelton Reid: That’s cool. With your track record, it’s like now you have this, as Robert puts it, this Rolodex of impressive authors. Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about a couple of the tools that we use to just get everything synced up with our schedules because obviously everyone’s busy. It’s not always easy to we can’t just be 30 emails back and forth about, “Hey, is this day good for you?” How do we do that, in particular? Caroline Early: Well, we do use ScheduleOnce and these online calendars, at least as a starting point. Since I’m scheduling for you, it’s really nice to be able to not have to go to you every single week and say, “Are you free at this time? Are you free on this day?” That’s a great starting point to see your schedule. I have noticed that people don’t necessarily want to look at that calendar, so there’s a lot of me being like, “Hey, how about this day? How about this time?” Fortunately, usually if I give them three options, one of those times will work. We make it so that it doesn’t take more than 30 to 45 minutes to record the show. We’re doing it over Skype, so it’s not too bad for them. It’s not like it’s this three-hour long in-person interview or something like that. I think that definitely helps. We just really haven’t had a lot of problems with it. Especially with all of these online tools now, to be able to sync calendars and all of that, it just makes everything so much easier. I can tell just, especially when I’m working with a publicist, because then it becomes us two trying to plan for two other people. There’s a lot of back and forth, but it’s pretty easy. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Well, it’s pretty amazing. Another part of what you do is then you’re sending our sample questions of the interview, so let’s talk a little bit about that. Again, I keep referring to Terry Gross and her process. She comes up with these one-of-a-kind, thoughtful questions, obviously tailored to each guest. We do that to some extent, but why do we send the sample questions beforehand? Caroline Early: There’s a couple reasons for it. Terry Gross is on another planet of interview skills, right? That woman, I feel like she must know everything about everyone because of the way she interviews. But I think in our context, we’re not necessarily trying to catch these people off guard. We want the conversation to be fluid, but we really want to learn about them. Like you said, we really want to kind of dig in to the brain and learn more about them. So I think giving them the questions ahead of time allows them to feel like they can prep if they want to. They don’t have to. It gives us a chance to learn as much as possible about them and really, really learn about their process, instead of just, “Hey, tell me a little bit about your book.” That’s great, but we want to learn more about the nitty gritty of their style. I think maybe it helps them to have the questions ahead of time. Kelton Reid: Yeah. In the spirit of the Proust Questionnaire, obviously, those questions are not hard to find. It’s amazing the work that you do. Thank you, again. I will say one of the perks is getting these galleys of books that are to come out soon. The free books don’t hurt, so thank you. Caroline Early: Can’t complain. Kelton Reid: Thanks for all the great work that you do. Caroline Early: No problem. I really love this part of my job. It’s definitely up there with … my favorite day-to-day task is being able to talk to these people and get to know them on a little bit more of a personal level. Thank you for hosting this great show. Kelton Reid: It is truly a pleasure. How Kelton Researches, Records Interviews, and Writes for the Show’s Website Robert Bruce: So, Kelton, I want to turn the tables on you here for just a minute and ask you a few questions because you have been instrumental in the conception and growth of this podcast network, as a whole, but specifically, obviously, this show. Will you allow me to do that for just a few moments? Kelton Reid: Yeah, of course. I’m blushing. Robert Bruce: Okay. Kelton Reid: Even though this is written into the script here. Robert Bruce: You’re so humble. Okay. Tell us about you. Who are you? What do you do in regards to all of this? Kelton Reid: I am a professional golfer. Robert Bruce: Toby, cut all this out. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Hopefully you know me by now, if you listen to the show, but if you don’t, I am a multimedia producer who helps to run the day-to-day, in-house production needs of Rainmaker Digital. I have the pleasure of working with all of the great, great talent that has entered the fray in this fantastic podcasting universe. Overseeing the day-to-day production that we’ll talk about later with Clare, the ins and outs and the tools that we use at Rainmaker.FM, built on the Rainmaker Platform, which we’re so lucky to have this amazing, talented team supporting us every day. Robert Bruce: What about, let’s get into some specific kind of production-y questions about The Writer Files. How do you put the show together? Kelton Reid: Okay. We’ve just spoken with Caroline about booking guests and all the great works that she does. Once that interview is on the books — it’s scheduled, I’ve got a time, we agree to record that — it’s just a matter of heading into the garage, turning on the computer, logging into Skype, right? Wrong, as you know. Robert Bruce: It’s not that easy. Kelton Reid: You’ve produced a lot of podcasts in the past. I, going back, want to thank you and Toby — once again, I may be skipping ahead a little bit — but for all of the guidance in helping me to get set up with this great system here. The real work really does start once our guest is booked. I usually start, now, I have the pleasure of shooting the name of the guest and hopefully just a starter link to their author website to a production assistant, Bill Geisheker, very talented, old friend of mine, that basically puts together a one-page research doc. It’s really short. It’s simple, succinct. Robert Bruce: Oh, wow. I didn’t know you were doing that. That’s cool. Kelton Reid: Yeah. It’s got all the relevant information on the author — websites, interviews, other podcasts, interesting facts that he thinks will be useful to me as he knows my process now very well, ins and outs. He does some transcription work for the show as well. He knows what’s going on there, but it’s very helpful. It gives me a jumping off place, where I can then start to get my thoughts together. As you know, Robert, having done a lot of these interviews, you were the original Rainmaker Digital/Copyblogger podcaster guy. You interviewed a lot of big names as well for … what was that show? The Lede, or was it something else before that? Robert Bruce: It was The Lede and I think it was Internet Marketing for Smart People early on, yeah. It was November 2010 we launched that show. Kelton Reid: Yeah. You guys were way, way ahead of the curve. It’s paid dividends, I think, for those audiences. Anyway, I take my talking points out of that doc. Then I just try to read as much of the author’s writing as I can get my hands on. Again, thank you, Caroline. She often gets an advanced copy of a book, if I’m lucky, and the galley or the publicist actually sends a copy of the book. Luckily, I am a speed reader. Robert Bruce: What, like the Evelyn Wood’s speed reading course kind of thing? Kelton Reid: Exactly. I’m processing a lot of information. As we can refer back to the format of the show, we designed the show around the Proust Questionnaire, so the guests actually know ahead of time what to expect, but I add some bonus questions in there that are pertinent to the author and what I think to be maybe their interests or other things about them that listeners might not know. Robert Bruce: Let me ask you this, and this is true of anyone who’s wanting to do a podcast, especially interview. People think that interview podcasts, “Oh, that’s easy. All you’ve got to do is talk and let the other person … ” But just the number of elements that you’ve named here — from scheduling, to booking, to back and forth. I think I talked to Caroline once, we were on a meeting, and she said it was on average 10 or 12 emails back and forth, before someone is booked, if they are booked. But in terms of the research, the reading, and the preparing for a single interview — of which you do, on average, one a week — how much time do you estimate you put into a single show, on average? Kelton Reid: I can’t say. Every show is different, but I do find myself reading books a lot of weekends. I’m going to link to this great, Longform Podcast episode with Terry Gross where she talks about how at the beginning of her career when she was doing five interviews a week that she really didn’t have a life. She was basically just watching movies and reading books all weekend long. That’s not really the case, but I do find myself wanting to absorb quite a bit of the writing itself because that’s what the show’s about. Also, I am a great admirer of writers, kind of a mediaphile, if you will. I invented that term. Robert Bruce: I like that term a lot. Kelton Reid: Thank you very much. Robert Bruce: Cinephile? Kelton Reid: Yeah, bibliophile, mediaphile. Robert Bruce: Mediaphile kind of covers it all. Kelton Reid: There you go. Well, I have to be in my line of work. Anyway, yeah, it’s definitely a minimum of three or four hours. Really getting into just the research, not including the other writing stuff, probably like an hour to an hour and a half prior to the show, which doesn’t seem like a lot, but when you have a day job, it can add up for sure. Then there’s the piece of getting set up with the technical part of recording the guests. I do not work in a garage. But I start up, I kind of do some vocal warmups. I’m not joking. I have borrowed some straight from a broadcast voice. Robert Bruce: Give us one. Give us one vocal warmup. Kelton Reid: Oh, it’s the easiest one. Aw, aw, ee, aw, aw, ee. You just do that over and over and over again, aw, just trying to stretch out the back of your throat. Yeah, listeners, you can practice this at home. But then I get set up here with a wonderful Shure SM7B microphone that you sent to me gift-wrapped, with a preamp connected here to the MacBook Pro, which is very silent. It doesn’t have a fan that comes on during the interviews, which is really nice. Then I’m in a walk-in closet actually in my basement. It’s been converted into a sound-proof hermetically sealed coffin. I think you’re familiar with these things. I am surrounded by clothes, don’t get me wrong. I can see shoes and all the fun stuff. There are some additional Auralex panels that can be moved around. I have a bass catcher in here. I want to thank both you, Robert, and Toby for all of your consulting and guidance early on because I was just working in an office with little to no sound proofing on a … what was our favorite microphone early on? Robert Bruce: Yeah. Not the Snowball. Everybody knows the Snowball, but the Yeti. Kelton Reid: Yeti, yeah. Hey, we made it work. I didn’t have really a clue, but you just kind of, as you develop your podcast and your voice, you learn things, and you iterate. Robert Bruce: What is a base catcher? Kelton Reid: A base catcher is just one of those foam thingies. It’s also made by Auralex. It just goes in the corner, so that it’s not reverberating, especially with a base, heavy voice like my own. It can just bounce sound around. I don’t know what it is really. Robert Bruce: I’m getting a base catcher. Kelton Reid: Then I hook up Skype Call Recorder. Logging into Skype, it’s already connected, so Skype Call Recorder, I’ll link to, is the primary recording method. You’ve got to make sure that’s all configured. Then I do a backup, usually, with ScreenFlow so that it’s just pulling a recording straight from the computer in case Skype crashes for any reason or Skype Call Recorder isn’t updated or something. I’ll get a backup there. Then Zencastr is my other backup recording method. If Skype, for some reason, doesn’t work for the author, I can just send a link, and they can just jump on Zencastr. You’ve used that before. How did you find Zencastr? Robert Bruce: That was cool. You shot it my way, and I think I just connected into a page that you had produced and were working on. But, man, that was very, very cool. Very easy. Kelton Reid: Very seamless. I’ll link to all those things. Yeah, so once I’m hooked up in here. I’ve got the headphones plugged in. I do a test call, make sure that it’s all configured correctly, got a hot beverage, headphones. I’m ready to do the call, and it doesn’t always go smoothly. Authors have called me from construction sites. Emma Donoghue, I actually asked her very kindly … she was on a press junket for her Oscar nomination. She was in Los Angeles in a hotel next to a construction site. I could barely understand what she was saying because there was as jackhammer. I actually asked her to move to the bathroom of her hotel. I think she sat in the bathroom on the tub. Oh my gosh. Robert Bruce: That’s great. Kelton Reid: So we got it. Robert Bruce: Man, yeah, that’s tough because that was a tough get, first of all, because she’s busy, and she’s got a lot going on. She was gracious enough to be on the show, but then you get on there and it’s just like, “[Beep] there’s a jackhammer in the background, and this is not going to work.” I remember you bringing that up. That’s the life, right? You’ve got to think on your feet and help them, make it as easy as possible for them. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Well, you know. You get dropped connections. I’ve had authors miss appointment times, or I’ve had to email their publicists because I don’t have their direct email. It’s that multiple, again, back and forth that Caroline has to deal with a lot. A lot of times, it’s a help message to Caroline saying, “What happened? Where are they?” Or an author will be on Skype on their mobile phone, walking along a busy highway. Thank you, Hugh Howey, just to go back to that one, but the list goes on. Robert Bruce: That’s great. Kelton Reid: Okay. Anyway, then I hit record. Before that, again, I’ll link back to that Terry Gross interview, but I try to assure guests that they’re in good hands, that we’ll edit them kindly, and we can give Toby cues if they need to stop or start over, whatever happens. Sometimes their phone just rings, and it’s unavoidable. You know this, but luckily it’s not live. Some authors really want to talk more than others about their writing life. I’ve heard Terry Gross conjecture about this kind of confessional nature of the remote interview because you’re not face to face. It’s like you can kind of say things that you wouldn’t say to somebody that you’re looking in the eye, in the same room. I do love being able to chat with writers like that. Sometimes it’s like a phone call with an old friend. Sometimes it’s just business. Sometimes it’s not as warm, but that’s just the nature of the beast. I like it when writers go off script and just talk about whatever’s on their mind that day. Robert Bruce: How much time do you spend pre, when you say, “Okay. You’re on the line,” but before you start recording and just kind of warming them up. You’re talking about assuring them that everything’s going to be cool. I guess it varies. Kelton Reid: Yeah. It’s usually about five minutes. I’m like, “Hey. I’m a fan of your work” because I am. And, “Thanks for coming on. You’re in good hands. Don’t worry about we’ll edit out anything you don’t want in there.” I’m not Terry Gross. Ours is a non-fiction format that we send the sample questions off to writers to check out. We skip around. I skip around. I don’t always get all the questions. In fact, nine times out of 10, I don’t even get three quarters of the questions in there that I’d like to get in, but I always ask writers, “Do you have a time constraint?” and get them out on time. Luckily, we have Toby. We’re going to talk to him about that moment before the interview starts. Robert Bruce: Everybody needs their Toby. Every podcaster needs their Toby. Why the Raw Audio for the Shows Needs a Little Massaging From a Pro Audio Engineer, with Toby Lyles Guest: Man, just let me know if there’s any weird noises on my end or if you need me to re-say something or something like that. Kelton Reid: Oh, yeah. No problem at all. We got a professional. Toby, thank you very much, will be editing this. So we are rolling. Guest: Hello. Thanks, Toby. Toby, I’m counting on you to just cut out all the things that I say that make no sense, okay? Toby, Toby, seriously. Kelton Reid: All right. Toby, thanks for joining me on The Writer Files today. How do you feel about that outtake from that show? Toby Lyles: That outtake is hilarious. When it first came through, I just laughed. Kelton Reid: Yeah. It doesn’t always happen where a guest specifically asks you to make them sound better, but you always do. Toby Lyles: Well, often you’re not the known person. You’re the unknown equation. If somebody mentions there’s going to be somebody working on this afterwards — like you, you always imply trust. So when that happens, I think you just teed that one up for him. He’s like, “Well, yeah. If there’s somebody working this, you’ve got to make me sound great.” Right? Kelton Reid: Yeah. Luckily, some of these authors do have a sense of humor. From the get go, he was a pretty fun guy to talk to. It doesn’t always go that way, as you know. Maybe for listeners who aren’t familiar with you, Toby Lyles, who are you, and what do you do? Toby Lyles: Well, I’m the voiceless, non-writer behind The Writer Files. Kelton Reid: You’re the audio genius who makes us sound so good. Toby Lyles: I run a company called TwentyFourSound and have the incredible honor, privilege of working with your show and then the rest of the folks at the Rainmaker team. That’s fun. I’ve been doing audio for years. I don’t know if it’s decades, if I’m old enough to be that way. I’ve been doing audio for a very long time and get to work with you and your show. It’s fun. Kelton Reid: Well, it is an honor to work with you. Your work is fantastic. You do always make us sound great. Let’s talk about a funny thing that happened to us trying to get on this and record this quick snippet with you. We went on Skype, as we are apt to do as interviewers. You called me on Skype, and we couldn’t get a good connection. We had to jump over to Zencastr to record this little bit, which we were both laughing about because, between the two of us, we have the know-how and the equipment here, but we couldn’t make it work. Toby Lyles: Yeah. It was kind of embarrassing. I’ve got Skype. It’s not letting me log in. I’m going to try this other thing. I was opening the iPad to do Skype on that. If we do that, then how are you going to hear me well, but you had the tools, Kelton. You pulled it off. Kelton Reid: It’s a good point to having a contingency plan, especially when you’re interviewing a celebrity or something like that to give them another option to connect with you or record this. Anyway, that was kind of funny. So when an episode of The Writer Files hits your desk, are you just like, “Oh, crap. Here we go.” What’s your initial reaction when a show lands on your desk? Toby Lyles: I enjoy it. Of course, like any writer would never say, “Oh, man, I got this new contract or new book I need to write.” At least I would assume, if you’re a writer, there’s got to be some amount of joy in the process, right? I think it’s fun. Honestly, I think the show is fun. I listen to lots of shows. I have recommended this show, probably because I know a lot of writers, but just the way you’ve set it up is really fun. Back to the … what do I say? It’s a great show. I get to listen to the whole thing. I don’t think I dread much about your show. I’ll work on that one. I’ll find something. Kelton Reid: Okay. Well, what’s the first thing you do when you get that link to the raw audio there for Dropbox? Toby Lyles: This is for anybody, any audio nerds out there, anybody producing their own stuff. The first thing I do is I don’t copy the original audio I should say this. I copy, I don’t work on the original audio. Same thing if you’re an editor, right? You’re not going to edit, mark up, mess up the original document, so it can’t be undone. We make a copy of it, and instead it’s somewhere else in the place where it can be worked on because stuff blows up every once in a while. You’ve got to watch out for that. Kelton Reid: Yeah. All right. What are the primary tools that you are utilizing there to make us sound so darn good? Toby Lyles: It’s pretty simple. I’ve got the studio. We have a studio computer. We use Adobe Audition. Specifically, I chose that one because a majority of podcasters out there right now, or authors who are trying to promote themselves via audio or help people that way, are using either GarageBand, Audacity, or Adobe Audition. Of the three, Adobe Audition is the only professional something or other, so that’s why. Then we can talk to other people well with it. It’s great. It’s a great program. We’ve got lots of fun toys involved with it. We just drop it into Adobe Audition. Kelton Reid: Well, you do amazing work to make us sound smart. Of course, I send you copious notes on where I need help, especially or if there’s swearing as well, but I’m very lucky to have you as part of this team. Rainmaker, as I mentioned to Robert earlier, has produced, since the beginning of the network, which you’ve been around since the beginning, over 1,300 episodes. It’s a pleasure to work with you. With that said, as a contractor, can other podcasters hire you to work on their shows? Can they hire you as a consultant, as we have used you for many of our shows? If so, where can they find you? Toby Lyles: Yeah. I think one of my favorite things is helping. I like authors a lot. I like helping people who have messages to say. People who are actually helping people with what they’re doing and of course in audio. Yeah. I’m always welcome to that. The website’s TwentyFourSound.com. It’s all one word and all spelled out, or the email is Toby@TwentyFourSound.com. Kelton Reid: Oh, wow. Awesome. Thanks so much. You have a great podcast also titled? Toby Lyles: Yeah. It’s called the Learn Podcast Production podcast. I appreciate you saying it. It’s a great podcast. It’s kind of nerdy, so good luck. Kelton Reid: Yes, but I have learned quite a bit from it. I really appreciate you stopping by, and I’ll be sending you some raw audio shortly. Toby Lyles: Perfect. I look forward to it. Kelton Reid: I’ll send it very soon. Toby Lyles: Okay. How It All Comes Together to Beam to Your Phone or Desktop, and Nestle Neatly in Your Ears, with Clare Garrett Kelton Reid: That brings us to the final pieces that we put together before this show is beamed into your head. I actually have to write the copy for the webpage or, in the case of the Rainmaker Platform, which is what we have used exclusively for all Rainmaker.FM shows, good fit here, we have to create a draft podcast post, which I actually don’t do. The great thing about Rainmaker itself, for publishing podcasts and getting them out to your favorite audio platforms is that it’s all very intuitive and so simple to get these shows beamed out to the world, beamed out to you, the listener. That’s why I want to welcome Clare Garrett, my very talented multimedia producer and editor that handles a lot of the day-to-day details of that process of getting these podcasts published. Clare, thank you so much for coming on the show. I understand you’re a little nervous about being on the podcast for the first time. How are you today? Clare Garrett: Definitely. I don’t know if to thank you or not, but we shall see. It’s my first ever one, so it’s a bit different to be on this side rather than behind the scenes. Kelton Reid: Yeah. You’re up in Canada, presently. Clare Garrett: I am. Kelton Reid: We are a distributed team. You work remotely, and I understand things are good in Canada. Clare Garrett: Yeah. Luckily you and I are in the same time zone, so that works out. Kelton Reid: That really is helpful. You hail originally from Britain. Clare Garrett: Yes, the north of Britain. If anybody has trouble understanding my accent, I do apologize. Kelton Reid: Just to preface that accent. Yeah. Let’s talk about you. Who are you, and what do you do specifically? What do you do for the podcast and the podcast network? Clare Garrett: I am multimedia producer and editor for anything Rainmaker Digital, but a lot of my job is based around Rainmaker.FM and the shows. Although it was daunting when we started the podcast network, it was easy to fall in and get it all up and running, once we got a process in place, which took quite a while to start out. It works pretty well right now. Kelton Reid: I did want to, well, I reminded both Robert and Toby that since February of 2015, when we actually started the podcast network, we’ve produced, all of us, over 1,300 shows. That’s pretty impressive. You might not have known that specific fact, but kudos on that. Clare Garrett: Yeah. That’s a terrific number. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Let’s talk about a few of the tools that we use to actually make all this happen. It’s not just as simple as pinging you in an email, although that does happen. The team gets an email from a podcast host. In this case, it would be me. What happens from there? I guess you can kind of walk us through that first tool that we use, that we like so much. Clare Garrett: Yeah. Once the host has submitted the email with the raw blog post and raw audio file in, we use a tool that’s called Trello. It’s like an organizational board, really. Each email that comes through produces its own little Trello card. With that, we’ve got the branding on there of the show art of each show. We’ve got the episode title that the host has chosen. Sometimes that’s not necessarily the one that gets published. We have the artist’s name on there and then there’s the raw audio and the raw blog post. Trello’s fantastic. We’ve got different columns in there. We’ve got the raw blog post, the raw episode, should I say. Once that’s all been put in place inside the Rainmaker Platform, it’s ready for the final look, by yourself. Sometimes you can tweak the final headline, and that all gets put into the episode as well and confirmed that that’s in there. From there, once it’s all ready for scheduling and publishing, once the audio comes back, it gets sent off for transcription. For the transcription, we use an amazing service. Kelton Reid: Yeah. We can talk about the transcription piece. That’s the third piece of this. So there’s three checklists that you are manually adding to each of these cards that are automatically created, automagically created over there on Trello, when they email the production team. Then we just start working our way down those. Everyone has their different duties. I think there’s a 21-piece checklist. That’s how these things actually get built. Then once you get that first checklist set up, then you are jumping over to Rainmaker. What happens there in the platform? Clare Garrett: As soon as we receive the raw episode, I go in and we’ve got already draft posts created inside Rainmaker Platform. Each show’s got their own draft post in there, for that specific day and that specific set time. Kelton Reid: That’s right. Where do those live? Where do those draft posts actually live? Clare Garrett: They actually live inside the editorial calendar inside the platform, which is rather cool. They’re already in there. Normally, we have a month in advance in there. So it’s really easy when the host sends it in, and they say they want it published on this day. I can just go in there, scroll down, find that particular episode, drop in the tentative headline, drop in the raw blog post, add the featured image, which is the show art, the author’s name, and also the keyword. Once I’ve hit save, I go in and preview and just make sure every link works, that it all reads well, that the title looks good. Then once all that’s in place, I can let you know that it is good to have another check by yourself. Once you finalize the headline, then Caroline goes ahead and creates the social image and then that can be added inside of there as well, which is a pretty cool tool to have. Kelton Reid: Yeah. I should mention that our designer, Rafal Tomal, has created all of our show art and also the social images template. So it’s all really kind of paint by numbers. The amazing work that he’s done, both on the site and for the shows themselves, is pretty impressive. When you’re looking at the front page of Rainmaker.FM, you’re seeing all that beautiful work that he’s done. The functionality, obviously, is some of the other great work that he’s done for us. That said, not to get too technical on that stuff, then we hold our breath, right? We just wait for the finished audio to come back. Clare Garrett: The audio to come back, yeah. Kelton Reid: Once it does, we listen to it. We check the ID3 tags. We make sure everything’s ready to go before we pop it in there, and it uploads to the site. Clare Garrett: Yeah. It’s so super easy to do as well. Kelton Reid: Yeah. It’s pretty amazing, the Rainmaker team has done and done for us and how all of this Clare Garrett: I never dare complain about anything. Kelton Reid: All these pieces fit together so nicely. We’re very, very lucky, knocking on wood. That it is so easy. Clare Garrett: Yeah. It’s never let us down really. Kelton Reid: Well, let’s talk about transcription now. That is the final piece. So once that finished audio comes back, then you can talk about these fantastic tools and people that help us actually get every single transcript for every single show published back onto Rainmaker Platform. Clare Garrett: Yeah. For the audio, we actually use Dropbox, so we can all share it between ourselves. Once the edited audio file is in there, it can be sent off to Rev. That’s Rev.com. Normally, they send it back within half a day, a day max. Normally, it’s like 95 percent accurate. They’re pretty good at doing awesome transcripts. Once that comes back, it has to be downloaded. Then we save it to Google Drive, which is another fantastic way of sharing documents with other people outside of our company. They get sent off to Kibin, which is an amazing editing company. Kelton Reid: We love Kibin. Clare Garrett: We do. They’ve done an amazing job. They’ve done the majority of our transcripts for Rainmaker.FM. Kelton Reid: Let’s talk a little bit about Kibin and our friend Naomi Tepper that helped us to get everything set up over there. We basically have a team of editors that we trained and worked with very closely to dial in exactly how we wanted all of our transcripts formatted specifically for Rainmaker. Clare Garrett: Yes. That took some getting there as well because it was all new to us, the network. We had to figure out a way of how we wanted the transcripts done and other things that’s in there. Yeah. They’ve worked out really well. We’ve got three editors there that actually just work on our stuff, so that’s really nice to know and reassuring. Kelton Reid: Yeah. They’re a fantastic team at Kibin. We’re very lucky to have them and you, overseeing all of this and managing that piece and all the other pieces that you do. The final question, what’s the most challenging part of working with Kelton Reid, host of The Writer Files? Clare Garrett: You’re so tough. Maybe trying to keep up on the coffee consumption. I don’t think I could ever drink as much as what you do. Kelton Reid: Hey. I brew half-caf coffee all day long, and it just keeps me sane and level. I’m sure it’s the only thing actually keeping me alive. If I stop drinking coffee, my heart will stop. Clare Garrett: I’ve not had a coffee yet this year, so you’re way ahead of me. Kelton Reid: I admire your stick-to-it-iveness there. Clare, thank you so much. I really appreciate you hopping on. Cheers. Clare Garrett: Thank you. Bye. Kelton Reid: Thanks so much for joining me on another tour of the writer’s process. If you enjoy The Writer Files podcast, please subscribe to the show and leave us a raving review to help other writers find us. For more episodes or to leave a comment or question, you can drop by WriterFiles.FM. And you can always chat with me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. Talk to you soon.

[smart_track_player url=”http://traffic.libsyn.com/7figureceo/7CEO_047-Building_Your_Target_Audience_With_Brian_Clark.mp3″ title=”7CEO 047: Building Your Target Audience With Brian Clark” artist=”Casey Graham” social=”true” social_twitter=”true” social_facebook=”true” social_gplus=”true” ] Brian Clark is the CEO and Founder of Rainmaker Digital which “provides tools and training for content marketers and digital entrepreneurs”. They're the company behind Copyblogger, StudioPress, and Rainmaker Platform. Initially, they built individual companies that reached 7 figures or more that were eventually rolled into one company (Rainmaker Digital) in order to provide a holistic solution for entrepreneurs and content marketer. They currently have 65 employees, most of them virtual, and they ran $12 million in 2015 revenue. Brian is an 18-year veteran of online businesses. He started out as a business lawyer, but didn't enjoy his profession and quit to start his own company in 1998. He realized the potential of the internet and combined it with his passion for writing. He grew an audience and email list by writing about pop culture and things he loved, but didn't know how to monetize what he was doing. So, he transferred his efforts and created content and a service-based business around his business law skills. He was doing content marketing before it was called that. He learned by watching other businesses and marketers, teaching himself marketing and copywriting. By 2005, he was well over 7 figures, but was burned out and doing all the work himself.   LINKS Email your top take-aways and learnings to Casey@CaseyGraham.com Rainmaker Digital: http://rainmakerdigital.com/ Permission Marketing by Seth Godin: http://www.sethgodin.com/permission/ MyCopyblogger (free training for content marketers and entrepreneurs): http://my.copyblogger.com/ Rainmaker Platform: http://rainmakerplatform.com/ Apply for a Breakthrough Call with Casey: CaseyGraham.com/Action   LEARNINGS Building A Company That Will Last You have to be willing to say “No” to 98% of opportunities that come to you so you stay true to your long-term success of really helping solve the problems of your audience. There will be plenty of opportunities that come along that seem like good options and could generate quick profits, but may ultimately hinder the bigger vision of your company. You must determine what you're motivated by and stay true to what you want to build. Begin with the end in mind. Having Low Employee Attrition The majority of Brian's employees and partnerships came from the audience he created with the valuable content they continued to release. All but three of his hires have worked out in the last 18 years and he credits that rare success mostly to how well-aligned people are with the values of the company when they're hired. People knew what they were getting when they were hired because they already knew so much about the company and culture Brian built. Process-Driven Business Most entrepreneurs are not process-driven. In order to scale a business, you'll need to create processes and often times that requires bringing in someone who it process-oriented. As the entrepreneur, you'll need to be willing and open to adopt a new way of doing business. Getting Your Business Growth Unstuck Often many businesses get stuck because they try to use the same marketing message and strategies that got them to their current success. Oftentimes, to continue growing, you must change and pivot your message to reach a different crowd. You often can sell to the “low hanging fruit” one way, but will have to change your message to reach the next sphere of potential customers. You should start with this smaller change before you scrap your product and try to reinvent what you're doing. Email Is Not Dead The stats still show the most effective sales engine is email. Email marketing is not going away anytime soon. So the most important activity of your business regardless of industry is collecting email addresses. Who Is Your Target Audience? You need to narrow down your audience to a small group of people who relate with what you're talking about. Your message should be polarizing to attract the exact right person and the rest of people should either ignore your message or be turned off by it. If you try to appeal to a broad audience you will fail.   Feeling Stuck In Your Business? I'm currently offering free 30-minute Breakthrough Calls to help business owners, presidents and CEOs with their current business challenge. If you have over $400K in annual revenue and would like help, schedule your free Breakthrough Call today.

As promised, here’s a quick explanation of the technical components needed to execute the strategy we discussed over the previous 9 lessons, how the Rainmaker Platform allows you to do it all (and more), and in the alternative, how to assemble a WordPress site with industry-leading hosting, themes, and plugins.

Brian Clark is a recovering lawyer, serial entrepreneur and founder of Copy Blogger, RainMaker Platform, and several other successful companies. I met him in Cebu during Tropical Think Tank (notice a theme?), and I was able to ask him how he started out before there was crowdfunding and how he grew Copy Blogger to 8-figures with zero paid ads.   In this interview, Brian and I discuss the importance of validating a product before launching, and why having an audience is so critical, not just from a backer perspective, but for live feedback.   In this episode you will learn:   How to have these conversations with your customer: “Will it sell?” or “Will people buy it?’, as well as “Do people want it?” Always, “audience first”; find out what they want, and how to sell it to them. It’s your job to find out what people want to buy. How to ask someone to give you feedback on your idea. People love to complain: a complaint is a product waiting to be made, or it is an improvement on an existing product that is not living up to customer expectations. Validation has nothing to do with your ego.   Resources mentioned:   copyblogger.com my.copyblogger.com rainmaker.fm rainmakerplatform.com   Click to Tweet   “Luck is not a strategy.” “Content marketing is how we do things. Content marketing is not something we just preach. It is something that we do.”

This week Steve Peck of Harness The Web chats with Sean Jackson, a founding partner of Rainmaker Digital (formerly Copyblogger) - creators of Copyblogger.com, StudioPress/Genesis, Rainmaker Platform and other online products/services.   Often referred to as the "Geek that Speaks," Sean has a true passion for technology and how it is applied to the needs of marketing.    Sean's podcast - The Missing Link - is a weekly show covering a variety of topics on using LinkedIn for online marketing. The show was recently cited by LinkedIn as one of the top 10 marketing podcasts for 2016. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/steve-peck/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/steve-peck/support

This interview was originally published on February 11, 2015, as HTE 059: Partnerships and the Creativity of Limitations | Brian Clark This conversation revolved around three essential elements of entrepreneurship: creativity, partnerships, and becoming the CEO of your company (even if you are a one person company). --- When I originally sat down to outline the idea for Hack The Entrepreneur, I immediately wrote out a short list of  people that I wanted to interview. I used this list as one of my metrics for success and I am happy to say that today’s guest is number two on that list. To me, the idea that one person could start a blog, not sell anything for 18 months, and turn that blog into an 8-figure media company is endlessly fascinating. He is a former lawyer, serial entrepreneur, writer, and creator. In January of 2006, my guest started a one-man blog called Copyblogger. Copyblogger is now an 8-figure per year media company called Copyblogger Media, of which he is the founder and CEO. He has ranked among the top in the world for social media and content marketing. He's been featured in countless books about business and media, and he has graced many stages. N ow, let’s hack… Brian Clark. What you will learn in this episode: Brian’s unique vision of productivity and why it works How to be wrong and adapting in real time How focusing on your one important task each day can enable you to get more done Allowing your mindset to accept the fact that you can do anything How Copyblogger Media was created in a mere three hours Resources and links mentioned: Copyblogger Further.net Rainmaker.fm  The Rainmaker Platform  Brian on Twitter  Exclusive Sponsor: FreshBooks (30-day Free Trial)

On this week s episode, we expound on the topic of WordPress product development by picking Brian Clark s brain on the topic. He’s spent the last decade developing themes, plugins, and now, of course, the Rainmaker Platform. So he has some lessons to share … In this 30-minute episode, Brian shares his insight on: The point... Listen to episode

On today’s episode Tara Gentile talks with Brian Clark, founder and CEO of Rainmaker Digital, the company behind Copyblogger, StudioPress, Rainmaker FM, Digital Commerce Institute, and the Rainmaker Platform. Brian began publishing online in 1998, and by 1999 he had his first entrepreneurial success — powered by what is now known as content marketing. Tara […] The post Episode 020 – Brian Clark appeared first on What Works.

Brian is a serial entrepreneur based in Boulder, Colorado. He’s the Founder and CEO of Rainmaker Digital, the company behind Copyblogger, StudioPress, Rainmaker FM, and the Rainmaker Platform.

"You have the chance to carve the career of your dreams, so dream!" Amy didn't just settle for regular copywriting gigs. She didn't just settle for speaking/training around the world. She kept 'checking in on herself' and tweaking her career path. Today she regularly hits publish on blogs, videos, podcasts and her own 'scalable' income (rather than passive) online course - alongside the client work she loves. Here Amy shares the lessons she's learned from regularly hitting publish, using content to make her, erm, content. (You kind of have to say that out loud, then it's clever huh?) Love learning from other freelancers like this? Check out the website beingfreelance.com, subscribe to the podcast and to the newsletter. Key Takeaway Points Focus on the work you like to do Keep 'checking in' on yourself to make sure you're happy and figure out how to evolve Need new skills? Learn them: if there's an area in your trade (for her sales/marketing copy) you'd like to work in, read up and then practice Skills swap: early on to help build your portfolio, do work for free for other freelancers who likewise give you their skills When clients come to you they'll be more engaged than if you pitch to them, so put yourself out there as someone they need Speaking/teaching proved her expertise Podcasting - keep going, encourage engagement with your audience Podcasts/videos on weekly basis show you have a commitment to your particular subject Be consistent with your publish days (for blogs too), you'll get better returns There's a delay to you seeing results when publishing content - keep hitting publish, stick with it, you'll get better quality clients If after a time you still don't see results, don't stop publishing, but look at what/how you're publishing and change that Making videos is closely tied to your personality - so it can really open doors to clients and speaking gigs, people feel they know you Amy makes videos with humour - it makes viewers more engaged when learning and makes them more likely to share Don't think 'passive' income, think 'scaleable' income Amy took her training resources and created a course and membership site She didn't create a community around it because that takes a lot of actual time to manage (whereas the course takes care of itself) Sometimes you have to just trust you're on the right path, stick with it Ask yourself: 'what do I really like doing?' If you follow and persue that, do what you love and work hard at it, you will rise to the top Avoid 'compare and despair' - sure, look at what others are doing, but don't let it distract you or make you feel negatively Knuckle down, keep going - You have the chance to carve the career of your dreams, so dream! More from Amy Amy on Twitter Harrison Amy site Amy TV Hit Publish Podcast Write With Influence Useful Links Rainmaker Platform Rainmaker.fm Who the hell is Steve Folland? You know how everyone bangs on about how powerful video and audio content can be? Yeah, well Steve helps businesses make it and make the most of it. Find out more at www.stevefolland.com Track him down on Twitter @sfolland or lay a trail of cake and he'll eventually catch you up.

At DigitalAccessPass.com, we recently got an email from a prospective customer, who said this, in part (paraphrasing): Finally, I have built a course that I will use for content, should I host it on my site, or put it on Udemy and then give free coupons to my members to take it on udemy? And I'm going to break up my answer into multiple episodes. So in today's part 1, before I can answer that question about Udemy, we first need to talk about the 3 options you have for running a membership site. 1) Self-Hosted WordPress Site 2) A fully-hosted membership site, and 3) A third-party marketplace like Udemy.com Let's get into each of these in more detail... 1) Self-hosted WordPress site: If you listen to Episode 3 of this podcast - this is episode 14, by the way. So the title of episode 3 was "$1.5 Billion for a Membership Site? Membership Site Dream Team" - you can listen to it at subscribeme.fm/3/ , I have talked about having your own domain, the kind of hosting you should use, and how you should have your own WordPress site, what to use for video, and so on. So having your own domain registered via Godaddy, your own hosting with liquid web - to support this show, please use my affiliate link , http://subscribeme.fm/liquidweb/ . Your own version of WordPress downloaded from WordPress.org and installed on your hosting account, and then using a membership plugin like DigitalAccessPass.com, now THIS... is a self-hosted WordPress membership site. So be sure to check out episode 3 at http://subscribeme.fm/3/ 2) A fully-hosted membership platform: The difference between self-hosted and fully hosted, means that on a fully-hosted platform, everything is stored on their servers. You can use your own domain, but the hosting, the content, the videos, the forums - all of these are hosted by someone else. Just like gmail hosts all of your own email. So these third-party platforms manage your site, the content, the security, the server updates, making backups of your content. They basically take care of all the "tech", and you just log in and create content and set up your funnels. Easier said than done. Sounds very simple, but in reality, it's not. Anyway, there are 3 commonly known, fully-hosted membership solutions: They are Kajabi.com, Nanacast.com and Rainmaker Platform. Kajabi is considered more newbie-friendly and easy to use when it comes to usability and look & feel of the web site. It is a proprietary platform where everything is hosted on their servers. Proprietary platform means, it's not running on WordPress. Which means you cannot easily extend the functionality of whatever they are offering simply by uploading a new plugin or a theme. That can be good or bad, depending on what you're looking to do with your web site. Nanacast is also a proprietary but more full-featured platform that comes with a lot of features, but it is generally considered complex to set up. Nanacast does offer a WordPress plugin to let you integrate your existing WordPress site with the main account on their server, but you will probably need to hire a Nanacast consultant to help you set it all up. Finally, Rainmaker Platform is from the team behind Copyblogger and Studiopress themes. It is all built on WordPress, but it is hosted on their servers. If you use Infusionsoft.com as your CRM, then you can use either Memberium.com or Infusionsoft-owned CustomerHub to integrate your membership site with Infusionsoft. DAP integrates with Infusionsoft too. So Kajabi, Nanacast and Rainmaker are all fully-hosted solutions, and these are a completely different animal compared to self-hosted solutions (like your own hosting account with  WordPress & DAP). And usually, such fully-hosted solutions start at about 100 dollars a month, and go up from there, depending on the number of users, and add-ons you purchase. So it could become pretty expensive over time - like 300 to 500 dollars a month. And even when you pay all that, you won't really have the full flexibility you can have with your own WordPress site. Here's a couple of key disadvantages of a fully-hosted membership solution: (check out the full episode to hear the rest...)

Brian is a serial entrepreneur based in Boulder, Colorado. He’s the Founder and CEO of Rainmaker Digital, the company behind Copyblogger, StudioPress, Rainmaker FM, and the Rainmaker Platform.

Dylan Jones shares real life success tips and tactics to increase quality LinkedIn connections (plus so much more)! Oh, did we mention he uses the Rainmaker Platform with incredible success in conjunction with LinkedIn? Mica and I welcome Dylan Jones, one of our very helpful Missing Link LinkedIn group members, to share about his solid... Listen to episode

Have you ever wondered why storytelling is such an omnipresent theme of human life? Welcome to another guest segment of “The Writer s Brain” where I pick the brain of a neuroscientist about elements of great writing.   Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! Research scientist Michael Grybko — of the Department of Psychology at the University of Washington — returned to the podcast to help me define storytelling from a scientific standpoint. If you missed the first two installments of The Writer s Brain — on How Neuroscience Defines both Creativity and Empathy — you can find them in the show notes as well as on writerfiles.fm and iTunes. In this file Michael Grybko and I discuss: Why Storytelling is the Default Mode of Human Communication How Empathy Makes Storytelling Such an Effective Tool Why Hollywood Continually Taps into ‘The Hero’s Journey’ How Blueprints Help Writers Connect with Their Audience Why Reading Fiction Makes Us More Empathetic Writers’ Addiction to Stories (Especially the Dark Ones) Where Humanity Would Be Without Storytelling Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes How Neuroscientist Michael Grybko Defines Creativity How Neuroscientist Michael Grybko Defines Empathy The Hero with a Thousand Faces (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell) Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting by Robert McKee “Reading literary fiction improves empathy, study finds” from The Guardian The Storytelling Animal: How Stories Make Us Human by Jonathan Gottschall Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Neuroscientist Michael Grybko Defines Storytelling Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer s block. Have you ever wondered why storytelling is such an omnipresent theme of human life? Welcome to another guest segment of The Writer’s Brain, where I pick the brain of a neuroscientist about elements of great writing. Research scientist Michael Grybko of the Department of Psychology at the University of Washington returned to the podcast to help me define storytelling from a scientific standpoint. If you missed the first two installments of The Writer’s Brain on how neuroscience defines both creativity and empathy, you can find them in the show notes as well as at WriterFiles.FM and iTunes. In this episode, we’ll discuss why storytelling is the default mode of human communication, how empathy makes storytelling such an effective tool, why Hollywood continually taps into the hero’s journey, how blueprints help writers connect with their audience, why reading fiction makes us more empathetic, the writer’s addiction to stories — especially the dark ones, and where humanity would be without storytelling. If you enjoy The Writer Files podcast, please subscribe to the show, and leave us a rating or a review in iTunes to help other writers find us. Thanks for listening. Michael Grybko, welcome back to The Writer Files. Michael Grybko: Hello, Kelton. Thanks for having me back. Kelton Reid: We’re back with a segment that we call The Writer’s Brain, and I think we’ve been building up to this episode. It s the third part of, I guess we could say, a multi-part series. We’ve talked about how neuroscience looks at creativity, right? Michael Grybko: Right. Kelton Reid: That’s an important building block, and then we have talked about how you look at empathy, and the importance of both of those in good writing. Michael Grybko: Right. Why Storytelling Is the Default Mode of Human Communication Kelton Reid: Here we are, and I think this is the piece that we’ve both been kind of itching to talk about. Michael Grybko: Right, we’ve been building up to this. Kelton Reid: Yeah, how neuroscience looks at storytelling. This is cool stuff. Anyway, let’s get into it. We know what storytelling is. We are constantly telling each other stories and ourselves stories, but why do human beings tell stories? Why is that the default mode of our civilization or our communication at this point? Michael Grybko: Right, yeah, it’s a big question. There’s a lot going on there, and it’s really pretty fascinating. In anticipation of this, I’ve been thinking about it for a while, and obviously there’s something there, you know? Storytelling has been going on for a long, long time. There’s evidence of it in I don’t know how many — I don’t want to say every culture — but many cultures have some form of storytelling, and it goes back pretty much as far as we can see. Kelton Reid: Sure. Twenty thousand years or so? Michael Grybko: Yeah. Maybe longer, you know. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: The record is just so good and well-kept. We can’t say for sure how long it’s been going on. Kelton Reid: Forever. Michael Grybko: It seems like a part of humanity, part of what makes us human. That’s the first interesting question: if it’s been going on this long, carried on, and you see the rise in different cultures, possibly independently, why? There’s got to be a reason for it. One of the main things, I think, is that storytelling has proven an effective means of delivering information. When I think of storytelling now and the purpose of storytelling, it seems to span this spectrum to me, where you have really didactic storytelling — a story that has a lot of moral meaning, or some lesson to be learned at the end — to storytelling that’s more pleasurable, that we just do for enjoyment. Kelton Reid: Escapism. Michael Grybko: Yeah, yeah. And so I think the important part is the didactic point, and I think that’s what’s carried it along this long. It s an effective way to deliver information. The question is why? Why is it better tell a story than to spew out facts or tell someone straight-up what’s going on? Kelton Reid: Yeah. How Empathy Makes Storytelling Such an Effective Tool Michael Grybko: This is why I think our previous conversations are a good segue into this about creativity, and empathy. It’s empathy, I think, which is why storytelling is such an effective mechanism. Last time, we talked about empathy, and empathy in marketing and why that was important and why it’s important to have this emotional response in the audience. Basically — I don’t want to rehash the whole thing again — information is more memorable when we add weight to it. A great way to add weight is to trigger an emotional response in the viewer. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: A great way to do this is if the viewer is empathizing with the characters in the story. Therefore, if we write a good story, it’s more likely the viewers will empathize with the characters, and then the content of that story will be more memorable. Kelton Reid: Yeah, so we’re giving order to kind of a world of chaos and rote facts or just random streams of information. They’re not writing these pathways that we need to learn without that storytelling element. Michael Grybko: Right. Kelton Reid: So this is something that has been around forever, because it’s an effective tool for learning. Michael Grybko: Right, and I think it’s because it’s tapping into someone’s emotion, their sense of empathy, and this theory of mind. It keeps our attention better, and then also, by attaching that emotion to it, it makes it more memorable. What’s interesting, we talked about during our empathy conversation, the discovery of mirror systems. These are systems that are active when an individual performs an action or witnesses someone else performing an action. A similar experiment was done with reading. So a group in Washington University in St. Louis, which was led by Jeffery Zacks, did a similar study, again using MRI, which we talked about before, so I won’t go into it too deeply, but it’s a way of inferring brain activity in certain regions by measuring an increase in blood flow. This group, using fMRI, showed that brain areas involved in things like spatial location, goal-directed activity, and object manipulation became active at points in the observer that correlated to aspects of a story that the observer was reading. We see again that there’s evidence that mirroring behavior is triggered when we read a story, just like it would be if we were witnessing an event. It looks like the same thing is happening here. It s where you read a story, and we trigger this empathy, and it s a part of us is living the story. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: Our brain is acting as if we were going through the same situations. That’s why storytelling is so powerful and probably why it’s been around for so long. Kelton Reid: This is why Hollywood makes billions and billions of dollars capitalizing on telling and retelling the same stories over and over, because it’s impossible for us to really resist that. Michael Grybko: Yeah, just getting immersed. Kelton Reid: The draw, yeah. Then being whisked away by these mono-myths, so to speak. I know I’ve brought this up before, but in screenwriting, they give you two books when you start studying the art of writing stories for the screen. The first one is Joseph Campbell’s The Hero with a Thousand Faces, where lots of marketers and writers talk about the hero’s journey, and that formula for storytelling. Michael Grybko: It’s a popular one. Kelton Reid: Take any of these great stories — you kind of become the hero when you get truly swept away by a great story. That’s why Disney does so well, and that’s why George Lucas, admittedly, had tapped into Joseph Campbell’s structure for mythology. To come back to storytelling and why it is so effective, or at least why we do it, and how to really do it better, I guess, is where we’re going with this. Michael Grybko: Right, and that’s another thing. Another aspect I thought about storytelling when I was preparing for this is, and you kind of brought it up, is that we’re all telling stories. I think stories actually help the person who is telling the story, and this gets into advice that was given to me and advice I pass on to people now when I’m preparing a scientific presentation. That’s make a story out of it, and it should have a flow. I thought about this as I was preparing for this, for our podcast here on storytelling. Why is that? Why do I give this advice? And I really started thinking about it. As a presenter, it helps us line up our facts. When we get really immersed into a certain topic, and we have to present on that topic, if it’s a data-heavy or fact-heavy topic we have to present, it’s really easy for the presenter to get up there and just start spewing out facts. Kelton Reid: Right. Michael Grybko: This is because the presenter sees the connectedness of all these facts. To the audience, who isn’t as familiar with this information, who doesn’t know all these connections, it can be very confusing if you go up there and just start spewing facts. When I think of a scientific presentation, when I try to line it up as a story, and when I think about making a story out of it, what I’m doing is lining up these facts in a logical way and creating a narrative that helps me present the information with a flow in a logical way to the audience. I think storytelling, also, not only are there these benefits of the audience empathizing and having an emotional response and being more interested in the information being presented, but there’s also the benefit to the storyteller to force that person into making a logical story out of the information they’re presenting. Kelton Reid: Sure. Michael Grybko: It’s not just a jumbled mess, a bunch of facts getting thrown at you. So that’s a benefit of storytelling as well. Kelton Reid: When I think of great storytelling, at least from a scientific standpoint, I think of like these great TED Talks that you’ll stumble upon or discover, that are really great stories being told by charismatic or truly compelling individuals, you know? Michael Grybko: Right. Kelton Reid: I’m certain that there are truly intelligent people that can’t do that. Michael Grybko: Right. Kelton Reid: They can’t get up … Michael Grybko: Yeah, it’s a skill. It s something you have to work at, something that I’ve worked at. Like I said, this is advice I give to graduate students and things now when they’re presenting their talks. It’s a hurdle that a lot of people have to get over. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Why Hollywood Continually Taps into The Hero s Journey Michael Grybko: I like that you brought up TED Talks again, and science, because that’s a theme I’ve seen in a lot of TED Talks. They all seem to be this kind of hero theme, you know? Even the science ones and whatever, it’s some certain molecule, or even that person’s personal quest, but you see that sort of hero conquering. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: It’s still present even in science talks. It follows that format. Kelton Reid: It does, it does. I was going to mention the second screenwriting book really quick that they give you when you walk through the door, is Robert McKee s Story, and McKee basically breaks a great story into five parts. It s inciting incident, progressive complications , a crisis, climax, and resolution. Seriously, when you look at a TED Talk that has a million views … Michael Grybko: I think they all got that book. Kelton Reid: Yeah, you can put that five-part template on top of those and see exactly why they’re so effective. How Blueprints Help Writers Connect with Their Audience Michael Grybko: Yeah, so storytelling, whether it’s some fictitious tale or you’re trying to deliver a fact-burdened story, a fact-burdened message, it has a similar theme, a similar blueprint to the structure of it. Kelton Reid: Yeah, I like that you say blueprint. And so many facets of the different storytelling departments — as in screenwriting, playwriting, TV writing, copywriting — they all use blueprints, at least at the start, for mapping out. Michael Grybko: Sure. Kelton Reid: These blueprints aren’t necessarily designed to help you find original material. That’s up to you. Clearly, each and every audience is going to respond better to a different type of story. Michael Grybko: Yep. Kelton Reid: Those blueprints are helpful starting out. Michael Grybko: Yeah. It s How are you going to arrange the information you’re delivering? That’s what’s important. Why Reading Fiction Makes Us More Empathetic Kelton Reid: Yeah, so let’s talk a little bit more about, does reading fiction make us more empathetic? Does reading, or even watching fictional stories, make us more empathetic? We both read this article in The Guardian. Michael Grybko: Yes, yeah, The Guardian, the Reading improves empathy, study finds. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Well, you can talk a little bit more about this from your perspective, but I don’t know. I think great writing certainly helps us to work out different problems in our own lives. Michael Grybko: Sure. Kelton Reid: Even thought they might not be the exact problems we’re having. I think this is why great writers are masters of brevity. They don’t tell the whole story. They’re painting the canvas with really bold brush strokes, but leaving a lot to the imagination. Michael Grybko: Right, right. Kelton Reid: Maybe you could touch on that a little bit. Is that valid? Does studying stories make us more empathetic? Michael Grybko: Well, I think the article published in The Guardian does a pretty good job at summarizing the original article, which I found. This was published by Kidd and Castano, if I’m pronouncing that right. The article is Reading Literary Fiction Improves Theory of Mind. That s the original research article. Yeah, it seems like their findings are accurately described in the Guardian article. Basically, they had people read some passages, some literary passages, and then gave them some tests to see if their sense of empathy and theory of mind were improved. These tests have been pretty well vetted, so the conclusion was, that yes, reading literary fiction enhances the ability to detect and understand other people’s emotions. Basically, we have to talk about theory of mind here a little bit and describe that. Empathy, by itself, is kind of useless. Empathy is just a shared emotion. So if you were angry or sad, and I saw that, I would become angry and sad. That by itself doesn’t do us much good. We just have two sad people instead of one, or two mad people instead of one, and then terrible things happen. That’s how wars start. Theory of mind is also referred to as mentalizing or mentalization. This is our ability to draw a conclusion as to why the person we’re observing is having a certain response. This, in turn, allows us to take action. So I can do something to alleviate, or try to alleviate, your sadness or anger. If you think about it, this is a very important aspect of us being human and us living in societies. If witnessing and reading literary fiction and partaking in storytelling, increases our theory of mind, we may end up being better people and taking more appropriate action to alleviate conflict or emotional pain in our fellow humans. Now I’m kind of stretching it out a bit here. In the original article, they were only able to look at shortly after an individual read a literary passage. It’s hard to say if this was a long-lasting effect or not. I guess we’re getting into the edge of what neuroscience can really test empirically on the subject and delving into the speculation aspect of it. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more, and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. I guess the next logical question is, I hear so many writers say that at the end of the day to unwind they will pick up a good book, or turn on the Netflix and watch their favorite show, and they’re escaping into a story, basically. Michael Grybko: Yeah. Kelton Reid: These same people who create these vast, amazing stories are spending lots of time studying story. Basically, what is it about the story that we find so pleasurable? Michael Grybko: Right. Writers Addiction To Stories (Especially The Dark Ones) Kelton Reid: Why can’t we get enough story? I feel like we spend our whole lives inundated with stories, and we just keep going back. Michael Grybko: Yeah, I agree. Kelton Reid: Like it’s so hard to escape it. Michael Grybko: Yeah. Kelton Reid: But we love it, it’s an addiction, right? Michael Grybko: It’s an interesting question, and going back to beginning of our conversation, storytelling spans this spectrum from didactic to purely pleasurable. Kelton Reid: When you say didactic, I keep thinking the Bible. That’s like didactic text. Michael Grybko: Almost. There’s a lot of storytelling. When you think of children’s stories, things like that, they’re meant to teach morals and values and how to behave. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: You can even think of other texts that work like that. Storytelling is prone to be an effective means to do that. A lot of cultures, I think, also use storytelling as sort of an archive of their history. Kelton Reid: Right. Michael Grybko: They don’t have written libraries, and storytelling has been important in that sense, to pass along traditions and the history of their society or culture. Kelton Reid: Sure, and isn’t that because so much of it was verbal? Michael Grybko: Right, but then they would enshrine things in stories, almost, because it made it a better way to deliver the message. Kelton Reid: Sure. Michael Grybko: Instead of, again, just spewing out facts, and that’s because it’s pleasurable, getting back to what you’re talking about. From a neuroscience perspective, I think we can have a pretty good idea of why it’s effective, why storytelling is effective at delivering facts and information. What we don’t have a great idea about is why is it so pleasurable? This is a very, very difficult question to answer empirically. That’s because storytelling is a complex human behavior, and as far as I know, there isn’t another animal out there that does this. For these reasons, it makes it very difficult to study on neuronal level. It s a complex human behavior, and we don’t have any good animal models to use. Furthermore, if you look at the mechanisms we’re using to look at it, something like MRI, again, this is a machine, big clunky machine, that you have to sit in. To really get at why storytelling is important, someone would have to spend a lot of time in an MRI machine to find out what’s going on in their brain over time. That’s just not practical. Unfortunately we’ve kind of reached the edge of the capabilities of neuroscience and our technical abilities. But I think we can speculate a bit on this, of the pleasure aspect, and I think that’s why this article by Kidd and Castano is so important. It s starting to answer some of these questions. If our sense of empathy and theory of mind increase with storytelling, I can envision that over time, we ve built up a neuronal reward mechanism when we encounter storytelling. These are seen throughout the nervous system. We have a dopamine system, an opiate system, these hedonic centers of the brain that become activated when something pleasurable is happening. We have sugary food, or fatty food, and I think possibly storytelling may be activating the same centers, too. The question is, why would this happen? This article by Kidd and Castano may have the answer. If it is increasing our theory of mind and improving our interactions with other people and making us more pleasant and easier to get along, groups of people, that may be why it’s so pleasurable. Because we are social. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: This is so important to our success, our ability to act in groups and to form societies. If what we’re getting out of storytelling is an improved sense of community and society, there may be a system there that’s encouraging it. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: So I’ll have to find out, or some neuroscientists are going to have to thinking of a way to test this little theory of mine here. Kelton Reid: You want to put me in an MRI and have me watch the entirety of Game of Thrones from start to finish? Michael Grybko: Hell, if you’re volunteering, if you want to sit in an MRI for — I don’t know, that would take days I think — maybe we could find out what’s going on, yeah. Kelton Reid: That brings me to another question, which I’m sure that we can’t answer in this span of this podcast, but why do we like tragedies so much? Like from Shakespeare to Game of Thrones, for instance. Michael Grybko: Yeah, that’s just gory stuff. And we like it. Kelton Reid: Why are we so attracted to these dark stories like Gone Girl, or House of Cards, or I think of a guy who built his whole career around dark, darker places in our mind like Stephen King. Then I think about, storytelling can’t be all wish fulfillment, because that’s boring. Michael Grybko: Right, yeah. No one wants to watch Disney all the time, right? Kelton Reid: Disney taps into the story archetypes, too. There’s always an inciting incident. Something bad usually happens. Someone gets lost, or someone is dead. They usually start with a heartbreaking turn. Michael Grybko: Bambi? I mean, come on. Kelton Reid: It’s almost like that’s kind of built-in. I’m sure there’s not an answer to that question, but think about the last few great stories, or TV shows, or movies, that you saw. They probably include some element of tragedy to them. Michael Grybko: Right. Kelton Reid: I don’t know, I think of a recent young adult hit. It s John Green’s Fault in Our Stars, and it’s about a young woman who is dying of cancer, right? That’s the premise. Then she falls in love with another young man who is also dying of cancer. That was a very popular book. Michael Grybko: Right. Kelton Reid: And a very popular movie, and we can’t get enough. Michael Grybko: Breaking Bad. Kelton Reid: Breaking Bad. We love a good antihero. Michael Grybko: That’s got drug dealers, and cancer — that’s got it all. All the dark stuff. Kelton Reid: Why do you think that is? Can you speculate on that at all? What Stories Have in Common with Flight Simulators Michael Grybko: Yeah, again, it’s hard to really peer into the mind and get a neural understanding of what’s going on in the neurons to answer this question. Storytelling, another aspect to it, when we immerse ourselves in stories, it becomes sort of a testing ground for these life situations and for our emotions and social interactions. What we’re doing is we may be able to play with our own emotions and learn about these interactions and test our theory of mind in a safe setting, because in the end, we can walk away from it unscathed. The advantage may be that somehow, we’re learning how to deal with these situations in a safe zone, if you will, so when we do encounter them in the real world, we’ll be better emotionally prepared and socially prepared. We’ll have a better reaction to that person who is going through something. Kelton Reid: Sure. Michael Grybko: Being harassed by a psychopathic, drug-dealing meth-head. Yeah. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: Or the white walkers are chasing him down. Kelton Reid: Well I think Jonathan Gottschall in his book, The Storytelling Animal, did say that fiction is an ancient form of problem-solving, and it does strengthen and reinforce those neuro-pathways that help us to learn. I think the metaphors that he used was, or a simile, was that airline pilots learn from simulators. Michael Grybko: Yeah. Kelton Reid: That’s how they keep cool under pressure with thousands of lives at stake, hundreds of lives, tens of hundreds of lives? I don’t know, how many people sit on a plane? Michael Grybko: Hundreds. Kelton Reid: Hundreds of lives at stake thousands of feet in the air in a giant piece of metal rocketing through the sky. How do they keep their cool? Well they’ve learned to keep their cool through thousands of hours of flight simulation. Michael Grybko: Yeah, so storytelling may be our flight simulator. Kelton Reid: For life. Michael Grybko: Yeah. Kelton Reid: Interesting, interesting. Michael Grybko: One more, I want to bring up, and this important in storytelling, is for that to be effective — I think this is important for writers to keep in mind — if storytelling is a testing ground, this flight simulator, where we can test things that are really extraordinary, maybe situations we would never encounter, what s important for the writers to keep in mind is you also can’t make it so out there that you lose the audience. Kelton Reid: Sure. Michael Grybko: As soon as the audience loses that empathy, that connection, that believability, then the message is not going to come across. Kelton Reid: Sure. Michael Grybko: As soon as you think, This will never happen in real life, then it’s game over. Kelton Reid: Right. Michael Grybko: Those are the great authors to me, or the great storytellers. They re the ones that can really take you out there and keep your attention and keep you believing. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Well, kind of like how you flip through Netflix. You can be flipping through Netflix for an hour before you find a show you, and/or whomever you’re watching TV with, agree on based on your mood. Probably writers in whatever, to whomever they’re writing for, need to take into consideration their audience first. I know we’ve talked about that before also. Michael Grybko: Right. Kelton Reid: That the kind of story you’re telling really needs to be targeted to your audience. Michael Grybko: Yeah, you have to know your audience. Kelton Reid: You have to know your audience, and you have to know their hopes, dreams, fears, and what mood they’re going to be in when they find whatever it is you’re writing. Michael Grybko: It’s hard to do. Where Humanity Would Be without Storytelling Kelton Reid: Whether you’re doing marketing or writing something purely to entertain people. Anyway, where would we be without storytelling? I guess that’s the million dollar question. Michael Grybko: Yeah, it’d be boring. Kelton Reid: Life would suck, I think. We wouldn’t daydream. We’d just be worker bees. We’d be drones. Robots. Michael Grybko: Yeah. Kelton Reid: Do androids dream of electric sheep? Michael Grybko: Yeah, I don’t know. It seems like storytelling is so coupled to humanity, like we were talking about. It s been around forever, and it appears in many cultures. Would we even be here? How powerful is this? How important is it? Clearly we spend a lot of money on movies, books, theater, so it’s important. Kelton Reid: Absolutely, so to tap into great storytelling for the good of humanity, what are we doing? Are we making sure that our audience is the hero at the center of that story that is really well-worn into our psyches already? We’ve been marketed to, and we’ve been read stories from birth, from commercials, to billboards, to storybooks, to movies, and television, and everything. Everything is really a story. Michael Grybko: Yeah, wow. What is the world, is the observer, in the storytelling process? Are they just getting immersed in the fantasy? Or do they actually think they’re running the characters? Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: That’s probably going to vary from story to story, and from individual to individual. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: Great storytelling. Kelton Reid: The power of a great story is really in the hands of the writer, I guess, is what we’ll circle back to. Michael Grybko: Right. Well, and the writer understanding his or her audience. Kelton Reid: Every great story starts with a writer. Michael Grybko: Yes. Kelton Reid: Now. Michael Grybko: Yes. But they need something to write about, right? They need some event. So you have this cycle I can see forming here. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: Writers are serving something in the world. They make it interesting, and sell it back to the people they were observing. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: It’s a great scam you’ve got going there, you writers. Kelton Reid: We really hold the key to unlocking … Michael Grybko: You’re getting all this material from us, and then you’re making us pay to tell us about it. Kelton Reid: Right. It brings us, finally, back to probably input equals output, so the more great storytelling we study, the more we learn and absorb, the better our stories will become. Michael Grybko: Yes. Kelton Reid: Does that make sense? Michael Grybko: Absolutely. It does to me. Kelton Reid: All right. Michael, I think we have reached a suitable conclusion, although I’m sure that you and I could talk about this for another hour or two. Michael Grybko: Yeah. Kelton Reid: As we have in the past. But I think we’ll wrap it up there. Michael Grybko: All right. Kelton Reid: Thank you very much for your time and for taking a break from your busy schedule over there and for chatting with me again. Michael Grybko: Oh, you’re welcome. I always enjoy these conversations. Kelton Reid: All right, my friend, well I hope that you will revisit us here on The Writer Files. Michael Grybko: Yeah, I’d love to. Kelton Reid: I appreciate your time, and we will revisit The Writer’s Brain very soon. Michael Grybko: Great, thank you. Kelton Reid: Stay curious, my friends. Remember it’s no secret why great stories run the world. Thanks for joining me a glimpse into the workings of the writer’s brain. For more episodes of The Writer Files or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM. You can always chat with me on Twitter, @KeltonReid. Cheers, see you out there.

Jerod Morris joins me to talk about The Rainmaker Platform, The Showrunner podcast and complimentary Showrunner Podcasting Course. We talk about building a podcast, why to start one and how to build a narrative into your show. We also answer a listener question on podcast networks and iTunes.

Jerod Morris joins me to talk about The Rainmaker Platform, The Showrunner podcast and complimentary Showrunner Podcasting Course. We talk about building a podcast, why to start one and how to build a narrative into your show. We also answer a listener question on podcast networks and iTunes.

Jerod Morris joins me to talk about The Rainmaker Platform, The Showrunner podcast and complimentary Showrunner Podcasting Course. We talk about building a podcast, why to start one and how to build a narrative into your show. We also answer a listener question on podcast networks and iTunes.

Prolific, bestselling, multi-genre author Hugh Howey took me on a walk through the writer’s process. Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! Mr. Howey is the well-known author of Wool, and his self-published dystopian “Silo Series,” that has sold over two million copies worldwide. His books have been optioned for film and TV by well-known Hollywood director Ridley Scott and Heroes creator Tim Kring respectively. He has been a fierce advocate for self-publishing authors and even inked a rare print-only contract with major publishers to retain the electronic rights to his early works. Hugh is a tireless proponent for the pure craft of writing, and he has built an intensely loyal following. As he prepares to sail around the globe on his catamaran, Hugh took a time out from his busy schedule to talk with me on a short walk. In this file Hugh Howey and I discuss: The Importance of Starting Each Day the Right Way Why You Need to Learn to Hit Publish from Anywhere How to Alleviate Your Natural Self-Doubts Why Writing is Like Exercise How Writers Can Fine Tune Their Creativity Where the True Magic of Writing Springs From Why You Should Be a Tourist in Your Own Town Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Hugh Howey on Amazon The Five Tibetans HughHowey.com Hugh Howey on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Bestselling Author Hugh Howey Writes Voiceover: Rainmaker.FM is brought to you by The Showrunner Podcasting Course, your step-by-step guide to developing, launching, and running a remarkable show. Registration for the course is open August 3rd through the 14th, 2015. Go to ShowrunnerCourse.com to learn more. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. Prolific, bestselling, multi-genre author Hugh Howey took me on a walk through the writer’s process. Mr. Howey is the well-known author of Wool and his self-published dystopian “Silo Series” that has sold over 2 million copies worldwide. His books have been optioned for film and TV by well-known Hollywood director Ridley Scott and Heroes creator Tim Kring, respectively. He’s been a fierce advocate for self-publishing authors and even inked a rare print-only contract with major publishers to retain the electronic rights of his early works. He’s a tireless proponent for the pure craft of writing, and he’s built an intensely loyal following. As he prepares to sail around the globe on his catamaran, he took time out from his busy schedule to talk with me on a short walk. In this file, Huge Howey and I discuss the importance of starting each day the right way, why you need to learn to hit publish from anywhere, how to alleviate your natural self-doubts as a writer, how writers can fine-tune their creativity, where the true magic of writing springs from, and why you should be a tourist in your own town. If you enjoy The Writer Files podcast, please do me a favor and leave a rating or a review in iTunes to help other writers find us. Thanks for listening. Hugh Howey, thank you so much for joining me back on The Writer Files to update your file. Hugh Howey: Hey, it’s good to be back, man. Kelton Reid: So for listeners who may not be familiar with you and your story, who are you, and what is your area of expertise as a writer? Hugh Howey: That’s a good question. Who am I? That could be a couple hours there, and I don’t even know if I’d have an answer. People think of me as a writer, but that’s the last six years of my life. Before that I was a vagabond, a sailor and lived on the water, and spent 10 years as a yacht captain. So that’s kind of who I am. I’ve been an avid reader my whole life, always wanted to write a novel. When I finally finished a book, I got hooked on that and started writing a lot, and my seventh work, Wool, took off and allowed me to write full time. I did that for the last six years or so. I’m going to continue writing, but now, I’m moving back onto a boat to get back to my roots, which is traveling the world by water. Kelton Reid: It’s an amazing story, honestly. You’re a prolific author. You’ve got your hands in a lot of different genres as well. Where can we find your writing for starters? Hugh Howey: The best place is Amazon. I’ve put everything in Kindle Unlimited because I do write a lot, and I like for people who are paying the $9.99 a month or whatever its costs to get to read everything without paying another penny. I do publish a lot, so it works out for me. Also, major bookstores carry Wool usually, or you can get any of my books in. My website s a great just to see what’s available. It’s just HughHowey.com. Kelton Reid: What are you presently working on? Hugh Howey: I’m bouncing back and forth between a fiction series called Beacon 23 and a nonfiction series that’s kind of self-help and travel log called Wayfinding. The Beacon 23 series, it’s weird. It’s another one of those short stories like Wool that took off. I’m telling this story in discrete parts. Each one has its own arc. Kind of like a season of TV, each episode tells a story, and people are eating them up at 99 cents each. And Warren Ellis, who I love to death, a graphic novelist and author, has become a fan of the series, and my film agent’s getting calls about the film rights. So it’s having a very similar trajectory that Wool had, which is kind of weird for lightning to strike twice like this. Kelton Reid: That’s amazing, and your sci-fi series, The “Silo Series,” is amazing. That’s the one that Wool kind of kicked off, right? And now Sand, the dystopian sci-fi novel that you wrote, is actually being adapted, is that right? Did I read that correctly? Hugh Howey: Yeah. It got picked up by Imperative. They re the team behind the relaunch of the Heroes TV show, “Heroes Reborn,” and I just met with them at Comic-Con and got to spend a couple days hanging out with them. Just a great group of people. I’m flattered when someone options something for film, but Wool has been with Ridley Scott for a couple years. They’ve written screenplays for that. It’s just really flattering. But however excited people are and they say they really want to make something, I don’t get my hopes up. I don’t assume that anything is going to go into production. I’d rather be surprised when it does than sit there and think about it and hound my agent for updates. It’s just better for me to keep writing. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. So let’s talk about writing and your productivity a little bit. How much time per day would you say you’re reading or doing research for projects? The Importance of Starting Each Day the Right Way Hugh Howey: Research, I don’t do direct. My research is very indirect. I read because I want to learn. I’ve been like that my whole life. I mentioned when I read nonfiction, I read veraciously. So all of what I read ends up getting distilled, mixed up, and then ends up in my writing. So even though I mostly write fiction, I want to write about the human condition and satirize popular culture and things like that. That comes from all my nonfiction reading. Probably two or three hours a day I spend reading, and some days, I can have an eight-hour day of just reading. The same thing with writing. I generally try to do two or three hours a day of writing, and sometimes I’ll have an eight-, 10-, or 12-hour day of writing where I pound out 5,000, 7,000 words in a day. Kelton Reid: Before you get into a writing session, do you have any pre-game rituals or practices? Hugh Howey: Yeah, but I don’t know if it has anything to do with the writing. I just live a healthy lifestyle. When I get up in the morning, I have a healthy breakfast of some yogurt with some raisins in it. Then I try to do the same thing every day, so I’m not having to make decisions. I’m not taxing my brain. It’s the same reason I think that I wear the same T-shirt and cargo shorts every single day and flip-flops. I do an exercise routine called The Five Tibetans, which is like yoga. It wakes me up better than a cup of coffee. It only takes about 10 minutes, and it really keeps you in shape. Then I open my laptop and start into whatever story I’m in progress. Kelton Reid: Nice. Do you have a most productive time of day and/or locale for getting into a session? Hugh Howey: Yeah, the morning for me. I’m most creative in the morning, but it’s also a matter of getting a lot of work done before I start checking email and get distracted with the business of writing. That doesn’t just come from self-publishing. I’ve published with traditional publishers as well. Having success as a writer means doing a lot of non-writing activities, supplemental stuff. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Do you have a favorite place to write? Why You Need to Learn to Hit Publish from Anywhere Hugh Howey: No. I can write anywhere. Yesterday, I’m at a family reunion, and I’m sitting at a table with a lot of conversations, a lot going on. I wrap up a work and hit publish and published right there from a dining room table. I’ve published while up on a panel. Right before the panel started, I was putting the finishing touches on a piece. They were doing introductions, and I’m hitting publish under the table. Sitting on curbs, waiting on taxis, on a book tour — Sand, that entire novel I wrote while in Europe on book tour. I wrote that book across nine different countries without a word of that rough draft written in the U.S. That’s the dedication you have to have. You can’t have an excuse. “Well, I’m traveling today, so I’m not going to write,” or “I’m doing this today, so it’s okay if I don’t write today.” My attitude is, if you take a day off, you’re giving yourself an excuse to two, or three, or four days off. Kelton Reid: Yeah. So as a world traveler, are you a writer who can stick on headphones? Do you like to listen to music while you write, or do you prefer silence or white noise? How to Alleviate Your Natural Self-Doubts Hugh Howey: I prefer silence or white noise, even crowds like cafes or airports, but I just posted on my website a few songs that I like to listen to when I’m having natural self-doubts that come from being creative. They’re very heavy-hitting songs just to fire you up and get the adrenaline going. So sometimes I use music to motivate me to have a powerful writing session, but I don’t like to listen to music while I’m writing. Kelton Reid: Got it. I think I already know the answer to this next one, but do you believe in writer’s block? Hugh Howey: I don’t. What I believe is that our writing varies in quality depending on what we’ve consumed, our chemical state, what’s going on in our life, how distracted we are, things that we’re anticipating might happen, how well the last writing session went. All of those things increase or decrease our expectation for how good our writing is going to be if we started clicking our keyboard. Sometimes we get into a mindset where we know we’re going to write crap, so we’d rather sit there and not write anything. I think we have to embrace the fact that we’re going to write poorly at times. When we feel that hesitation and that lack of confidence, that should motivate us to really pour the words out, prime the pump, get back to the good stuff, and trust the editing process. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Are you still working on a MacBook Air? Hugh Howey: Yeah, I prefer the Air. I might be switching to this new Dell laptop they ve got out, which is a smaller form factor. I’ve not been too overwhelmed with the updates to the Mac OS. I’ve played with Windows 10. I kind of liked that, so I might be switching. Kelton Reid: Interesting. So what software do you use most for your writing? Hugh Howey: I usually use Microsoft Word. Kelton Reid: Do you have any organizational hacks since you’re constantly on the move? Hugh Howey: Not really. Organizational hacks. No, I’m sloppy. I have a Word document that I’ll keep open for notes, and I just kind of pile in notes for a series in there. It’s ugly, but it works for me. I’ve used it to write book series with 400,000 plus words across them — a lot of foreshadowing and a lot of plot points and characters — and somehow it all works. I’ve tried using Scrivener and stuff that have those tools built in, but I find myself playing with the tools instead of writing. I’ve never gotten over the learning curve for those things to be useful to me. Kelton Reid: Do you have any best practices for beating procrastination? Why Writing Is Like Exercise Hugh Howey: Yeah. Sit down, and it’s like exercise. There’s so many reasons to not get down on the floor and do push-ups. Your body does not want to be taxed. It doesn’t want to feel that. As soon as you feel it, you have to say, “I’m not going to let that control me. I’m going to choose what I’m going to do with my life and not let my inherent laziness, my desire to conserve calories, or whatever is going on in our bodies that makes us want to curl up in a ball and not attack the task before us.” Open up the document, turn off the Internet, and start writing. If you’re not sure what happens next in the story, skip to the part of the story that you know is going to happen. Start writing there. Just start writing about your character, or if you know the next scene takes place in a bar, just describe the bar. You’re going to delete every bit of that, but describe every facet of that bar — what the jukebox looks like, what the street noise is, every weird detail that aren’t going to end up in your story. As soon as you start doing that, you’re going to find that you’re able to get back into the flow of the plot. Kelton Reid: Very nice. My final question on workflow stuff is how do you unplug at the end of a long day? Hugh Howey: My favorite thing is to get by the water or on the water. Go to the beach. If I can have a nice meal looking out over the water, if I can go for a swim or take a paddle board out, anything like that energizes me. Just chill out with a book and read. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. So let’s talk about creativity. How do you define creativity in your own words? How Writers Can Fine Tune Their Creativity Hugh Howey: I think creativity is not so much as creating something that’s never been done before. It’s the free expression of a combination of things that we’ve absorbed from elsewhere. To be absolutely creative is almost to be avant-garde, to do stuff that’s almost absurd. There’s some value in that, absurdity for the sake of complete newness or shock value. For me, true creativity is seeing the individual human like a filter, like a coffee filter. You push all this stuff through: popular culture, life experiences, upbringing, genetic makeup. What drips out is the way they distill all that knowledge and all those experiences. It’s different for every person, and people are creative in ways they don’t even appreciate. The way they approach their work, they might think that’s not creativity. There are things that they do in their workflow, how they organize their desk space, or how they organize their day — I see those as expressions of creativity. I think everyone is creative in some ways, and we need to figure out what ways we enjoy being creative and do more of it. It gets us in tune with ourselves. Kelton Reid: When do you feel the most creative? Hugh Howey: After I’ve written something. So when I’m writing, I tend to feel like it’s kind of garbage, but when I’m done with the writing session, I go back and read some stuff. Or I’m revising. That’s when I feel like I don’t completely hate what I’ve just done. Kelton Reid: Do you have a creative muse at the moment? Hugh Howey: Not really. I’m going through a lot of change in my life right now, and some of it is very stressful. It’s sad that that’s inspiration, but the best stuff I’ve ever written has been dealing with huge losses of my life. I’m generally an upbeat, perfectly happy, even-keel person, but the best stuff I’ve ever written is when I’ve lost people in my life or lost a beloved pet. I guess that the tortured artist cliché, there’s something to that because you tap into an emotional well that’s difficult to tap into when you’re just content and happy. Kelton Reid: In your own words, what do you think makes a writer truly great? Where the True Magic of Writing Springs From Hugh Howey: Having read a lot. Actually before having read a lot, I would say having lived and experienced a lot. I think you have to fill yourself with knowledge and experiences before you have something really wonderful to write. What we end up writing is kind of a greatest hits collection of our ideas, our thoughts, and our vocabulary. In order to have a greatest hits collection, you have to have a huge body of work that you absorb. It’s somewhat like photography, something I’m passionate about. The secret to photography is learning lighting and the controls of the camera and framing and all these tricks of the trade, but the magic comes from taking thousands of photos and then having an eye that recognizes the dozen in there that are truly spectacular. When we write, we have thousands of ideas, thousands of word choices, thousands of word combinations and sentence flow options, and the quality of a writer and the skill comes from knowing out of those thousands, which handful are viable options. Kelton Reid: Do you have a few favorite authors that you’re reading at the moment? Hugh Howey: I tend not to follow writers. I tend to follow subjects. Nonfiction makes it difficult to follow writers. Rick Adkins wrote a World War II Trilogy that I really liked, and I’ll read anything that Bill Bryson writes. I just read McCullough’s biography of the Wright Brothers. I’ve really enjoyed his work, but it’s rare for me to find … Stephen Pinker is a guy who, anything he writes, I’ll pick up and dabble. With nonfiction, it’s not like with a fiction author where you’re going to get a book a year. You might be likely to get one every five years. It’s hard to follow an individual author like that. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Well, I found your original writer’s file to be infinitely quotable, but do you have a favorite quote yourself? Hugh Howey: I don’t know. One that I’ve come back to time and again — and it’s so cliché, everyone uses it — but maybe there’s a reason for that. I’ll get the exact quote wrong, but I’ll paraphrase. I’m pretty sure Hemingway said it. “Writing is easy. You just sit down in front of your typewriter and bleed.” I love that because it tells me that writing was difficult for him, and it reminds me that it’s not supposed to be easy. The same thing is true of exercise, and diet, and anything worth doing in life. We should look for the things that are most difficult and then attack those things. We tend to live the path of least resistance. That’s defined to preserve calories, preserve our energy, and find ways to not tackle long-term goals and be fulfilled deeply in life. I found fulfillment through listening to my body, figuring out what it least wants to do, and then doing that thing. That quote kind of inspires me to do that. Kelton Reid: Nice. Couple fun questions for you. Do you have a favorite literary character? Hugh Howey: That’s a good question. Maybe growing up I loved The Stainless Steel Rat. That character really resonated with me. Kelton Reid: If you could choose one author from any era to sit down and have an all-expense paid dinner, who would you choose? Hugh Howey: Oh, it’d be William Shakespeare for sure. Kelton Reid: I’m always curious about this answer, but why Shakespeare? Hugh Howey: I like to tell everybody, “Hey, it was definitely William Shakespeare’s. Stop with the theories. I know for a fact it was him.” Kelton Reid: Do you have a writer’s fetish? Any good luck charms or any weird collectibles? Hugh Howey: No. All I really need is my laptop. I do feel kind of naked if I don’t have it with me. I grab it in the middle of the night to make notes. I try to carry it with me everywhere. I will say, as a reader, that I’ve upgraded my Kindle to the Kindle Voyage, and that’s such a sexy reading device. I feel I do not like not having that thing with me. With that in my pocket, I’ve got every book that I own and access to every ebook out there. I fetishize the heck out of that thing. Kelton Reid: Nice. So who or what has been your greatest teacher? Hugh Howey: Literally, Dr. Dennis Goldsbury, my English professor at the College of Charleston. I was a physics major when I had him for a prereq and loved his class so much that I made sure I had my 102 from him the next semester. Then I asked him what he was teaching the semester after that. He was the hardest teacher I’ve ever had. Getting an A from him was the most rewarding challenge in my collegiate career. I started taking all of his classes, and soon he was like, “Look, you have to be an English major to take these 4000-level classes.” I probably would’ve written something at some point in my life anyway because it’s been a dream of mine for a long time, but I wouldn’t be the writer that I am today without his guidance. Kelton Reid: Can you offer any advice to fellow writers on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? Why You Should Be a Tourist in Your Own Town Hugh Howey: Yeah. What are you doing to have novel experiences? Without that, you’re just not going to be inspired to write. Find a way to be a tourist in your hometown. Look at towns that are a short drive away, and get out on the weekend and do something. Talk to strangers. If you see an old man with a military service hat on, sit down on the bench beside him, and ask him his story. Observe the world. Carry around a notebook. Describe strangers. Describe settings. Writing is not something you do in front of your laptop. Writing is something that you do all day long, and the laptop is just the place where you dump that out. Kelton Reid: Where can fellow scribes connect with you out there? Hugh Howey: You can find me on Twitter at @HughHowey and on my website. Once I’m on the boat in another two and a half weeks, I’ll be moving onto the catamaran, and I’ll be at sea a lot. I’ll hopefully still be able to keep in touch when I’m in port, but I don’t know how much I’ll be accessible like I have been for the last five or six years. Kelton Reid: That’s really exciting. Where is your first destination? Hugh Howey: Well, I’m starting in St. Francis Bay, South Africa, and my first port of call will be Cape Town. I’ll stay there for a few weeks, and then I’m just going to spend a couple of months total in South Africa. Early October, we’ll head to St. Helena, which is in the middle of the south Atlantic and then Ascension Island, which is where Napoleon was held captive. From there, either Brazil or Barbados and then up the Caribbean chain into the Bahamas and Florida. Kelton Reid: Amazing. Well, we wish you a safe journey, and I’m sure that will spark some more really inspiring stories and writing. So best of luck to you, sir. Hugh Howey: Thanks, man. Well, if something bad happens to me, it’ll probably boost book sales just for a brief moment with any obituary or news mention. My heirs have that to look forward to. Kelton Reid: Well, I’ll knock on wood over here, and thank you so much for stopping by. Hugh Howey: All right. Thanks, man. Kelton Reid: Take care. Thanks for tuning into the show. In the words of Mr. Howey himself, you are a startup. The next great business is you. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all of the show notes or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM. You can always chat with me on Twitter, @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

The Showrunner behind multiple top-ranking podcasts and Vice President of Marketing for the Rainmaker.FM podcast network, Jerod Morris, paid me a visit this week to talk about his beginnings as a writer, podcaster, and digital marketer. Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! Mr. Morris started out online as a sports blogger and became the editor of a high-traffic blog that was tapped by Fox Sports. His blogging has led to quite a few opportunities for the writer, including: Co-founding a WordPress hosting company Leading the editorial team for Copyblogger.com Launching and co-hosting multiple top-ranked podcasts … and becoming the VP of Marketing for the Rainmaker.FM podcast network — to name only a few On the eve of the launch of his new Showrunner Podcasting Course, we had a chance to talk shop. In this file Jerod Morris and I discuss: How Sports Blogging Led to a Host of Opportunities A Simple Writing Hack for Email Marketers Why Writing Makes You a Better Podcaster How Scheduling Greatly Increases Your Productivity Why Writers Need to Embrace Their Imperfection How to Infuse Everything You Do with Creativity Some Very Wise Words from Teddy Roosevelt Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Jerod Morris on Copyblogger Primility The Showrunner Podcast The Lede Podcast The Showrunner Podcasting Course The Assembly Call — IU Basketball Postgame Show The Writer Runs This Show “The Credit Belongs to You” by Jerod Morris (Downloadable Teddy Roosevelt Quote & Poster) Jerod Morris on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Veteran Podcaster and Content Marketer Jerod Morris Writes Voiceover: Rainmaker.FM is brought to you by The Showrunner Podcasting Course, your step-by-step guide to developing, launching, and running a remarkable show. Registration for the course is open August 3rd through the 14th, 2015. Go to ShowrunnerCourse.com to learn more. That’s ShowrunnerCourse.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. The showrunner behind multiple top-ranking podcasts and Vice President of Marketing for the Rainmaker.FM podcast network Jerod Morris paid me a visit this week to talk about his beginnings as a writer, podcaster, and digital marketer. Mr. Morris started out online as a humble sports blogger and became the editor of a high-traffic sports blog that was tapped by Fox Sports. His blogging has directly led to quite a few opportunities for the writer, including the co-founding of a WordPress hosting company, leading the editorial team for Copyblogger.com, watching and co-hosting multiple top-ranked podcasts, and becoming the VP of Marketing for the Rainmaker podcast network, to name a few. On the eve of the launch of his new Showrunner Podcasting Course, we had a chance to talk shop. In this file, Jerod and I discuss how sports blogging led to a host of opportunities, a simple writing hack for email marketers, why writing makes you a better podcaster, how scheduling greatly increases your productivity, why writers need to embrace their imperfections, and some very wise words from Teddy Roosevelt. If you enjoy The Writer Files podcast, please do me a favor and leave a rating or review in iTunes to help other writers find us. Thanks for listening. Jerod Morris, welcome to The Writer Files. Thank you so much for dropping by, my friend. Jerod Morris: Thank you, Kelton. It is my pleasure. I have wanted to be on this show since you launched it. How Sports Blogging Led to a Host of Opportunities Kelton Reid: The illustrious and animated Jerod Morris. Let’s talk a little bit about you as the author. For listeners who might not know your story, who are you, and what is your area of expertise as a writer? Jerod Morris: Well as you said, my name is Jerod. I have been writing really my whole life. I remember back in elementary school, I was always writing short stories. I thought for a long time that I wanted to be a novelist and write fiction stories, but I grew up with a very strong sports background. That quickly morphed into sports writing, and I was editor of my high school paper and was planning on going into journalism when I got into college. But I went for my orientation, and there was a sports marketing and management degree. I decided to do that and then switched it again a year later and thought I was going to be a big screenwriter in Hollywood. Remember the first Project Greenlight, the very first one that they ever did? Kelton Reid: Oh yeah. I did that one. Jerod Morris: Yeah, so did I. My buddy and I, the guy that I was living with, we had created a production company, so we wrote our screenplay. And for about three years there, we were committed to the life of a screenwriter. Then I remember reading somewhere — I don’t remember who said it — but they said, “If you can imagine yourself being happy doing something else, do it. Because the only real way that you’ll ever survive being a screenwriter in that type of industry is if you just burn the bridges, and it’s the only thing that you could do.” I didn’t really feel like that, and so I ended up kind of getting away from writing for a little bit. Soon thereafter, I was back in it and got back into it with sports blogging, actually. My dormant love of writing about sports was rekindled, and I started a site called Midwest Sports Fans, which actually ended up leading to the development of the hosting platform that ended up leading to coming over and joining Copyblogger. I’ve been really fortunate with Copyblogger to get the chance to do a lot of writing and get paid for writing, which is really what I always wanted to do in some form or fashion. It happened, not necessarily how I thought it would happen, but it has happened. Kelton Reid: Yeah, so you were the co-founder and editor of a pretty high-traffic sports blog. Was it picked up by Fox? Is that what I read? Jerod Morris: Yeah, it was part of the Yardbarker Network. Then as part of that, we became one of Fox’s featured blog publishers. They had a little widget on the front page of their site. We were one of the sites that they always kept a link from one of our stories in there. They posted our Bracketology stories, so they liked what we were doing. Because I think at that time, sports blogging was still very much the Wild, Wild West. This was really before SB Nation was even big, and there were so many independent sites out there. I think we separated ourselves with our quality and being measured and not always going for the viral story or the sophomoric tilt on it. You know, trying to be actually respectful to the subjects. It was a really fun experience. I look back on it now, and I realize there were some opportunities that we probably missed by staying independent. At the same time, it also presented other opportunities, because without that, maybe we don’t develop the hosting platform. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Jerod Morris: That was a wet basement of my mom’s I was blogging in then. Kelton Reid: Where can we find your writing presently? Jerod Morris: Well, right now, you can certainly find my writing on Copyblogger. One of my side project sites is called Primility. I do a lot of my other writing there. Most of the writing I do now isn’t public. I write a lot of emails, whether it’s for our Copyblogger email blast that we send, for lists on my side projects, or even like, I just got done writing an auto-responder for the Showrunner course, actually. I’ve been doing a lot more of that kind of writing, which is more specialized, more segmented for specific lists, that kind of thing, which has been a really interesting transition, but one that I really like. I love the art of writing an email. I’m glad that I’ve been able to zero in, especially over these last six months, and get a lot more experience doing that. Kelton Reid: What else are you presently working on? Jerod Morris: Well, in addition to The Showrunner, we’ve got — and it should be out by the time this is released — but it’s basically the four essential elements of a podcast. When you sign up for the email list at Showrunner.FM, you’ll get this dripped out over about a week s time. I m really excited about that. I’m actually, on one of my other projects called The Assembly Call, taking the Rainmaker learning management system and molding it into my own format. I’m taking it, and it’s not a course like we would normally do at Rainmaker.FM, but it’s basically a course on the fifty greatest players in IU history. I’m really excited about that, which has given me the opportunity to get back into the sports writing a little bit and basically write about all the players that I grew up watching and hearing about. I’m quite excited about that and to get it released, which hopefully will happen in mid-August. A Simple Writing Hack for Email Marketers Kelton Reid: That’s fantastic. There is something to be said about the art of writing email, for sure. I think online publishers, and especially content marketers and email marketers, should follow that model. Jerod Morris: You know, the funny thing is, sometimes if I get stuck when I’m writing, I’ve found that just putting a name at the top, addressing it to someone, really helps me. Because we’ve all heard, If you’re writing to everybody, you’re really writing to no one. You want to pick out a specific person, really know who you’re writing to, even if it’s a blog post. If I get stuck, just putting Kelton and imagining that I’m writing it directly to you, which is what we do with emails, has always really helped me get unstuck for any writing project. That’s my little hack, my little writer’s hack. Kelton Reid: I like that. Let’s talk a little bit more about productivity. How much time per day would you say you’re putting into clacking away? Jerod Morris: On just writing, or actually doing the research for the writing? Or does it all go together? Kelton Reid: Yeah, how much time are you putting in to research, and writing, and all of that good stuff? Why Writing Makes You a Better Podcaster Jerod Morris: Many, many hours. It s a lot of what my job is. Now it’s interesting, because a lot of what I do now is creating audio content, which isn’t necessarily research, and it’s not writing, but it requires doing both of those. I find that the subjects that I’m able to speak well about on a podcast are probably subjects that I’ve written about, because the writing has helped me to clarify my thoughts on those subjects, and I’m able to speak about them much better. If I really struggle talking about a specific topic, I’ll go back and write about it, which will help me, again, get clarity and organize the thoughts in my head. If I’m not writing, if I’m not either doing an interview or creating some kind of audio content or in a meeting with one of our colleagues at Copyblogger, it’s reading and research, which can be listening to podcasts, reading blog posts, reading books. I find that if you’re writing a lot, if you’re creating a lot of podcasts or any type of content, the well runs dry pretty quickly. So you’ve got to keep replenishing that with new ideas and new perspectives so that you continue to have new and better perspectives and more nuanced perspectives to deliver to your audience. Kelton Reid: You’re just a content machine over there, basically? Jerod Morris: Kind of, yeah, and I love it. I think I counted up, and I’m hosting like five podcasts right now. Kelton Reid: Oh my gosh. How Scheduling Greatly Increases Your Productivity Jerod Morris: It s funny, I’ve actually found that since I actually committed to doing more things, but really scheduled them, I’ve become more productive. What I mean by that is, I had a couple podcasts I was doing on the side, but I didn’t necessarily have a set schedule for them. I would constantly be worried about, “Okay, when am I going to schedule this next one? What’s the next topic?” It was the same thing for some newsletters that I was writing for some of these sites. I didn’t have a schedule. As soon as I said, “Okay, I’m sending a newsletter out every Monday morning. This podcast is being recorded every Tuesday at noon. This one is every Monday.” It was a lot more content, yet I’ve become a lot more productive. Because it’s like I’m freed from the worry and the consternation. I’m free to actually go create the content. Because it’s like, “Hey, I’m showing up, and I’m creating something.” It’s allowed me to do it with more peace of mind and do it in a much more productive, efficient way. Kelton Reid: So do you find that you have a most productive time of day and/or locale? I know you’re in the studio a lot. Jerod Morris: My most productive time of day was actually a couple of days ago when my dog woke me up at three o’clock in the morning. I went back and laid down for about 10 minutes. I couldn’t get back to sleep. You’ve probably had this happen to you. You’d be there, and you’re like, “Okay, but I need sleep. I’ve got to lay down.” Because my alarm was set for like five, five-thirty. I almost was going to fight through it and be stubborn and say, “No I’m going to stay here, try to sleep.” Then I was like, “Screw it. Why am I going to lay here in bed when I’m not doing anything?” I got up and had basically about three hours of bonus time to work. I was incredibly productive. I actually find that whenever I do that, I’m really, really productive. The problem is, of course, I crash later. I ended up getting a headache later in the day, so it didn’t end well. Those moments, either really late at night or really early in the morning when I’m really jazzed about something, that’s definitely the most productive time. On a normal day, I m most productive first thing in the morning or in the early evening. There’s always a lull right after lunchtime or in the early afternoon. It’s not really from eating a big lunch and getting sluggish or anything. For some reason, those times are just better for me to get up and go for a walk or go do something. I just find that I struggle to maintain the focus all throughout the day, but if I break it up a little bit, I’m much better at the beginning and the end. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. So when you’re there in the office or elsewhere — do you go to coffee shops at all? Jerod Morris: Sometimes, and every time I do, I’m really productive, and I say, “Why don’t I do this more?” Ever since I started working from home, this inertia has been created. It kind of takes a lot for me to get out of the house, because I always think, “Well, I’ll be more productive if I’m here and if I don’t waste the time driving.” It doesn’t always work out like that. Sometimes it’s worth it to get out, and that investment of the time actually makes me more productive. I do like going when I actually can force myself to get out. Kelton Reid: Are you a headphone guy? Do you like to listen to music, or do you prefer quiet? Jerod Morris: I used to, but I can’t do it anymore, especially if I’m writing. I’ve either got to be in a coffee-shop-type place where there’s ambient noise, or I’ve got to have silence. I can’t do the music anymore. Even if Heather’s in the other room watching TV, I’ve got to ask her to turn it down, because I’ve found it a lot harder to write with any type of distraction like that. Again, the ambient noise I can do, but music, anything like that, I just can’t do it anymore. I don’t know why. Kelton Reid: Do you believe in writer’s block? Why Writers Need to Embrace Their Imperfection Jerod Morris: Yes, I believe in it inasmuch as I think that there are times when you know that you need to write something, or you want to write something, and you sit in front of the screen and nothing comes out. I believe it’s a thing, but I don’t believe it’s an excuse. When that happens, you’ve got to fight through it. You’ve got to learn whatever it is for you that helps you get past it. For me, one of the — strangely enough — things that’s helped me when writer’s block happens, to move right past it, is actually hosting live shows. I host a live post-game show for Indiana basketball games and for Showrunner Huddles, which we do inside of the Showrunner course. We host these live Huddles. What’s great about that is it’s really taught me that when you hit that start broadcast button, and the green light goes on, you ve got to go. You ve got to have something. Whether you’re prepared or not or you know exactly what you’re going to say at the beginning, the light is on. A lot of times, I’m hosting these, so it’s up to me to direct where we go. Otherwise, people are going to be staring at this awkward guy sitting in a chair and not doing anything. I try as much as I can to basically take that same principle to when I’m writing and just go. It’s not going to be perfect, and the great thing with writing is that no one else has to see it, and you can edit it. I think that’s really helped me to just be okay, just going, embracing the imperfection that’s going to be inevitable, and realizing that at least with writing, I’ll have a chance to revise. That’s not always the case hosting a live show. Kelton Reid: Let’s talk about workflow some. I know I’ve seen pictures of your setup there on Twitter, but what hardware are you using? Jerod Morris: I have a MacBook Air, which I like quite a bit. My favorite and the most beneficial piece of equipment that I have is from this company called Goldtouch. It’s a laptop stand. It basically allows you to stand your laptop screen up so it’s right at eye level. It helps not just with kind of the neck and back issues, because I’m not constantly bending down to look at the screen, but it’s actually helped me a lot for the video work that I do. It gives a much better angle for the recording because it’s straight on. I use that. I just plug an Apple keyboard into it. It’s nice. It folds up really nicely, so I can take it on the road with me. That, and then of course I’ve always got my microphone here on the desk so that I can hop onto impromptu recordings. Pretty much every day I’m recording something, either someone else’s show or one of my own shows, so I don’t really take the setup down. I just keep it here, always ready to go. Kelton Reid: For general workflow, and writing, et cetera, what software do you find yourself using the most? Jerod Morris: I grew up with Microsoft Word. I’ve given Pages and Scrivener and all of these other programs a try, but I have settled on the most blank, sparse, bare-boned text editor as what I like writing with. Actually, I used to write a lot in the backend of WordPress as well. I found that when I would do that, I would constantly be stopping to add links or add images. I would get distracted. When I’m inside of a text document, it’s just the words. I’ll leave myself little notes in there, or if I need to get a link or whatever. I find that I get so much more focused writing done when it’s just the text document, because it’s just me, the white space, and my ideas. It helps me to get clarity with what I’m trying to say. Kelton Reid: It reminds me of an era past when writers used to have to put paper into a machine, and it was just paper and the typewriter. Jerod Morris: Yeah, simpler times. Kelton Reid: Yes, yes. So do you have some methods of madness for kind of staying organized over there with all of your multiple projects and podcasts and whatnot? Jerod Morris: That’s a really good question. I constantly feel unorganized. I’m not really good at using a to-do list and keeping it. I’m stubbornly trying. I’m committed to getting better at it. I find my calendar is really helpful. I try and keep everything on the calendar so that at least I don’t miss any important meetings that I have scheduled, and that helps. Other than that, I try and keep my inbox as clean as possible. I try and clean that out every day if I can. I m not always able to do it, but I try to do that. I find that if my inbox is cluttered, and if the desktop on my computer is cluttered, I feel cluttered. Ironically, I save everything to my desktop, so it automatically gets cluttered. At least a couple times a week, I have to go through, clear out the inbox, clear out the desktop, my computer desktop, and then my actual desktop as well, and get a little bit of a reset. That’s something that I feel like I constantly fight is being a little disorganized, feeling a little disorganized, so I’ve got to constantly take steps back and make sure that nothing’s slipping through the cracks. I’m not efficient at it by any means, so if people have great tips, I’m all ears. Kelton Reid: We’re going to open up the tip line. Jerod Morris: Yeah. Kelton Reid: 1-800-JEROD-ORGANIZATIONAL-HACKS. I don’t know. That wasn’t going anywhere. I think you covered this already, but do you have a best practice for beating procrastination? Jerod Morris: The first is acknowledging it. I used to beat myself up for procrastinating a lot and feel like there was something wrong with me, like I was the only person procrastinating. I think understanding that it’s quite universal has really helped me to at least remove the self-loathing part from it. I acknowledge that it’s happening and try and figure out why it’s happening. I may be procrastinating because I’m afraid of a particular project, because I don’t know where to start, so I try and break it up. Maybe I’m procrastinating because I’m just not excited about something, so maybe this is something that someone else should be doing, and I can trade with them, or I need to find a different angle to get excited about it. I really try and have some level of self-awareness for why the procrastination is. If it’s just because I feel like procrastinating, then I try and indulge it for five, 10 minutes and then get right back at it. I found I used to spend so much time beating myself up for it that it would self-perpetuate. Simply accepting it, acknowledging it, and then not allowing it to go on too long has really helped. Kelton Reid: How do you unplug at the end of a long day? Jerod Morris: It depends on the time of year. If it’s basketball season, then unplugging for me at the end of a long day is turning on an IU basketball game and then basically working for five or six more hours, but loving it. Watching the game, live Tweeting, hosting the show, posting the show. It’s a flurry of activity, and I love every minute of it. For the most part, it’s going for a walk. Heather will get home — she’s been traveling a lot lately, so I haven’t been able to do this. I’m not as good at taking the initiative to go do it on my own. When she’s home, we always try to go for a walk at the end of the day, just talk about our days, talk about what’s going on, and get a little bit of physical activity. Then come home, make some dinner, and then watch a show, something like that. Kelton Reid: What’s your favorite show right now? Jerod Morris: My favorite show right now is Rectify on the Sundance Channel, which we stumbled upon totally out of the blue on Netflix. It was a really short first season. I think only five or six episodes. In the first episode, I wasn’t really bought into it, but it gets really good. Obviously a lot of people don’t know it because it’s on the Sundance Channel, but it’s a really, really good show. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. All right, let’s talk a little bit about creativity. Jerod Morris: Yes. Kelton Reid: Can you define creativity in your own words? How to Infuse Everything You Do with Creativity Jerod Morris: To me, creativity is just finding a different way to look at something. It’s interesting, because actually, I have this debate with Heather, because she thinks that she’s not a creative person. She’ll tell me, “You’re so creative, and I’m not.” She works in the financial industry, so she doesn’t work in an industry that you typically think of as creative. Because she’s not writing a story or creating a piece of artwork. Yet she’s extremely creative when it comes to seeing a process and finding a better way to do it, and identifying something that’s going on over here and a way that that can be improved, or how this can be shifted around. You know, that creative problem solving, creative thinking. Creativity, to me, is really a lot more broad than how we sometimes think of it. It s not even necessarily Creating something new. I think you can be creative by amalgamating things that already exist, but in a new way. I think it’s having a unique way that you look at things and then a unique way that you can then communicate that so that someone else can have an opportunity to share your view. Kelton Reid: When do you personally feel most creative? Jerod Morris: Three o’clock in the morning after my dog wakes me up. Kelton Reid: Is that your creative muse, your puppy? Jerod Morris: He sometimes is. I feel the most creative when I am just genuinely into a topic. Maybe that’s an easy answer. I think we all have things that we have to do in our work days, or in our personal life, whatever, that we have to do because we have to do them. They’re not necessarily the things that we’re the most excited about. It’s like, taking on a project like the fifty greatest Hoosiers of all time, I feel incredibly creative when it comes to that because I’m passionate about the topic. It s fun, and it’s not something that I’m trying to check off of a to-do list. I try and find more ways to get it on the to-do list. I think creating the Showrunner course was the same way. It was an incredibly fun and creativity-fueled experience to go from nothing to saying, “Okay, we want to teach people this concept of a showrunner, how to be a showrunner, and how to create great shows, so what kind of modules do we need? What kind of lessons? How can we make it fun? How can we make it different?” Because I’m passionate about the topic, then there’s creativity flowing through everything that I was doing with that. Time of day can be all different times. I can feel creative having stayed up 36 hours if I’m really excited about what I’m doing. When you have something you’re passionate about, I think creativity naturally comes, because you’re fully engaged. So you’re going to see it in a different way and draw connections that, if you were distracted or only half paying attention or just going through the motions, you wouldn’t draw or you wouldn’t see. Kelton Reid: Yeah, Darren Rowse said something very similar to that, which I love. In your opinion, what makes a writer great? Jerod Morris: What makes a writer great? That’s a wonderful question. I think the ability to distill an idea to a reader in a way that is meaningful to the reader. That’s what writing is. When I think about when I have felt best about something I’ve written, it’s because even to this person who I didn’t see or didn’t know, I felt this strong sense of empathy, even while writing, that I understood what they needed or how this piece that I was creating could really impact them. And then I was able to do it and do it in as few words as possible. I will always tend towards appreciating writers who are good at brevity, because I tend to be very long-winded. Maybe I give undue credit for that skill. I think the ability to do that and really impact somebody in as few words as possible. And it could take 300 words in a book. That’s all relative. But I think being able to really empathize and take an experience that you’ve had, knowledge that you have, a perspective you have, or just a story in your head, and create that with words to someone else in a way that impacts them, that s what makes a writer great. Kelton Reid: Yeah, I keep coming back to that classic, The Writer Runs This Show. I can’t help but put those two together, The Showrunner and how many great writers we actually work with. I’ve completely gone off the rails here. Do you have any favorite authors at the moment? Jerod Morris: I do. That’s a hard question to narrow down. I actually just got done reading The Martian by Andy Weir, who was a recent guest on Authorpreneur by Jim Kukral. Kelton Reid: Yes. Jerod Morris: I’ve never been a sci-fi fan, but I really enjoyed that book. Now I’m reading — this is another recommendation that Tony Clark made to me, actually — The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August by Claire North. It’s a really interesting book, a very interesting take on time travel that I’m reading, and I m quite excited about that. Other than that, I’ve been so focused lately on doing online reading. It’s actually one of those things where you get so busy, and you realize, “Damn, I haven’t been picking up enough books lately.” You know? So you ve got to start scheduling — at least for me, anyway — I know someone like Demian, he lives inside books. I have to schedule it more, because I feel like I spend so much time listening to podcasts and reading online. I’m glad that I’ve been able to do that. I just bought, is it David McCullough? The guy who wrote 1776 and John Adams. I’ve been on a pretty big history kick lately, and obviously, he’s one of the most renowned authors of history that there is. I quite enjoy his work as well. Kelton Reid: Excellent, I’m not familiar, but we will find the correct spelling for you. Jerod Morris: Yeah, I’m looking around to see if I have the book in my office, but I don’t. Kelton Reid: Do you have a best-loved quote? Some Very Wise Words from Teddy Roosevelt Jerod Morris: I do. I need to commit this to memory, but I don’t have it by memory. If you can tell, I’m stalling so that I can look it up. It’s a quote that I used in a recent post on Copyblogger. It is by Theodore Roosevelt, who says, “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without air and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” I love everything about that quote, because it gets at the essence of what we really try and instill in people in The Showrunner. I know some people have even criticized us for being too simplistic when we talk about this. But the power and the compounding power over time of showing up, of stepping into the arena — whether it’s to write, whether it’s to produce a podcast, whether it’s playing a sport, whatever you do — but to actually show up, put yourself all on the line, put something out there, and risk judgement, risk loss, risk failure, because it’s the only way that you can actually have a chance at success, and great gain, and great victory. Obviously, it opens you up to criticism, and there’s a lot of people who like to criticize the people who are there in the arena. But ultimately, like Theodore Roosevelt said, it’s the person who’s in the arena who matters. I try as much as I can to not be the critic who is criticizing, but to be the person who’s actually in the arena. I think it’s something that we can all benefit from no matter what our arena may be. Kelton Reid: That’s outstanding. I will link to that post as well on the show notes. Jerod Morris: Well, thank you. Kelton Reid: A couple fun ones: do you have a favorite literary character? Jerod Morris: A favorite literary character. That’s a good question as well. Why is Walter White the only name that’s coming into my head? Kelton Reid: That works. Jerod Morris: It’s so sad. Kelton Reid: No, it’s not. Jerod Morris: I don’t even know why I’m thinking about him. Kelton Reid: We love a good anti-hero. Jerod Morris: Yeah, he is certainly that. He’s certainly compelling. I can’t get Walter White out of my head. I’m going to go with him. I like him for the many contradictions. Because by the end of that show, I was not rooting for him. I wanted him to fail, yet there was something that was so compelling about him and his story. Kelton Reid: If you could choose one author from any era for an all-expense-paid dinner to your favorite spot, where would you go, and with whom? Jerod Morris: Another great question. It’s funny, Jonny Nastor actually asked Demian and I this question on a recent episode of The Lede. I would choose John Adams, second president John Adams, who wrote a lot. He journaled, wrote letters to his wife Abigail, and obviously wrote many of the documents that proved to be foundational in the founding of the United States. He is a really interesting character to me, because a lot of times, he gets not cast aside, but he certainly gets overshadowed by George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and a lot of the other guys who were big personalities at the time and continue to be today. He was such an interesting character in that he was so smart, so opinionated, and really kind of irascible in a lot of ways, and so could rub people the wrong way. Yet when you read letters that he wrote to his wife and his private journals and saw what he actually did, there was a great humility there that was evident. That’s what’s always drawn me to him, is this character of immense pride who combined that with humility to really be one of the most influential people in the entire history of the country. He certainly is recognized as that for the most part, but I think sometimes his contributions do go overshadowed a little bit too much as well. Kelton Reid: Have you seen the Paul Giamatti portrayal? Jerod Morris: I actually haven’t watched that yet. I read the book, and Heather and I have been meaning to watch that. I think it’s second up on our Amazon Prime. I’m getting ready to watch it. Kelton Reid: Jerod, do you have a writer’s fetish? Jerod Morris: Not really. I’m trying to think if there’s anything that could be considered a fetish. Kelton Reid: You’re not rubbing a rabbit’s foot over there every time you write? Jerod Morris: No, I’m not. I have lots of sports fetishes. I’ve always been superstitious about sports stuff, like I have special shoes that I’ll wear for the biggest games, and that kind of thing. It’s not anything I’ve ever really applied to writing or to anything professionally, much more sports-related. Kelton Reid: Who would you say has been your greatest teacher? Jerod Morris: I would say just experience. Unfortunately, I tend to be someone that’s got to do something to learn it. I’m not great at just reading something and internalizing it. I’ve got to read it and put it into practice to really learn it. Certainly, I’ve been really fortunate to have incredible mentors at every step along the way, all the way back to teachers in elementary school and high school and coaches and my parents and different people that I’ve worked with since then. I find that even the best lessons they teach me, a lot of times, I’ve got to go mess it up or do it on my own or apply it in practice to really learn it. Maybe everybody has to do that to a certain extent. I think just experience, just doing, and going out and getting my hands dirty with something. I certainly don’t always feel comfortable doing it, because when you’re doing that, you’re opening yourself up to failure, but I feel the most confident that that act will actually lead me to learning something useful that I can apply in the future. Kelton Reid: Do you have any advice for your fellow scribes on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? Jerod Morris: I think it’s really to understand the importance of being authentic in what we’re doing. By that, I mean understanding whether what you’re writing or the project you’re working on is something that you’re really passionate about, that you’re interested in. Is it the kind of thing that you would talk about for three hours at a bar with a friend? Is it the kind of thing that if your dog woke you up at the three o’clock in the morning that you would immediately think about going and doing? I think if you have not found that yet, to work to find that. Being true to yourself is really the first step in authenticity. The next step is then, for whatever it is that this topic is about, really thinking about the people that you’re creating content for. Whether it’s a reader of your story, a viewer of your video, a listener to your show — whoever it is — really think about where they are when they’re going to consume this piece of content. Are they just looking to get entertainment out of it? Are they looking to achieve something because of advice you’re giving? What are their obstacles? What are their goals? Really try and find that intersection between the experiences and the perspectives that you bring to the table and what can deliver value, whatever its form, to them. When you do that, you’re getting intrinsic value out of the actual act of the writing and the creating no matter what. But you also have that extra bit of confidence and that extra bit of positive feedback that comes from creating something that is well-received by people. Not that it doesn’t get criticized, but that it’s meaningful to the people that it’s supposed to be meaningful for. Because when it is, then it can be criticized by other people, and you don’t care. You’ve got that shield of armor up from loving what you’re doing and impacting the people that you care about. I think when you can really identify those things in whatever it is, it will create a long-term love affair with writing and with content creation that can carry you through and really lead to the creation of some great stuff. Kelton Reid: Yeah, absolutely. I’ll go off script here for a second and circle back to podcasting. I think it’s pertinent, at least, that you started out as a fiction writer and an aspiring screenwriter, as did I. Here we are speaking to one another in a podcast. Jerod Morris: Yeah. Kelton Reid: Would you say that all the experience that you’ve had writing, all of the different facets and different pieces that you’ve put together, have helped you in your podcasting? Jerod Morris: Without question. Back in the day when we were studying screenwriting, you know, reading “Story” by Robert McKee and learning about the elements of a story, whether you’re applying that to screenwriting or anything, that’s going to be helpful. Having a journalism background and learning about the importance of the five Ws and getting to the point, and how to be economical in how you tell a story, and how to really find out what the story is is important. Then, I think all the other experiences. Just the experience of being tasked to write emails and having to get into who you’re writing that email to, it s no different than when you’re creating a podcast episode, and you sit down and say, “Okay, who am I speaking to here? Who is the person who’s going to be receiving this?” A podcast is just a spoken letter to a person. You could say that an email is a just a written podcast in a lot of ways. All of those things really come together and can really help you. For anybody, the more varied experience that you can get, it’s going to help you in everything that you do. When I started The Assembly Call, doing the silly live post-game show for IU games, I never had any thought that this could actually be a great lesson for my career. Yet I’ve probably learned more from that project then I have from almost anything else that I’ve done, because it’s forced me to get comfortable doing this live broadcast. It taught me, on my own, without piggybacking on other people’s audiences that have been created, how to go from absolute scratch, to not just creating a site that was driving traffic, but a site that was driving engagement and building an actual audience. All of those things come together, and writing, podcasting, whatever content you’re creating, they’re going to help you be better at creating nuanced content, more rich content, and content that delivers more to the audience. Kelton Reid: Very nice. Jerod Morris: I hope that answered your question. Kelton Reid: It did. Mr. Morris, where could fellow scribes connect with you out there? Jerod Morris: A great place to connect is on Twitter, @JerodMorris. That’s a wonderful place. For anybody who is interested in showrunning, even if they’re not somebody who necessarily wants to podcast but is just interested in the idea of using content to build an audience and connect with that audience and create something bigger for an audience to be a part of, then I would recommend connecting on The Showrunner. You can go to Showrunner.FM, and our email list is right there. You’ll get the auto-responder series The Four Essential Elements of a Remarkable Podcast, which are really the four essential elements of a remarkable piece of content. One thing Jonny and I are adamant about with people on the email list is that if you send us an email, have a question, a thought, anything, we’re going to read it. We’re going to respond. We love interacting in there in that email format. For anybody who wants to do that, that’s probably the best place to connect if you want to really have a meaningful connection. Kelton Reid: Jerod, thank you so much for stopping by The Writer Files. I do encourage writers to podcast. I think The Showrunner is a good place to start. The URL again is? Jerod Morris: Showrunner.FM. Kelton Reid: Pretty easy one. Jerod Morris: Yeah, for the email list. When this comes out, actually, will be the day that we’re launching the course as well, The Showrunner Podcasting Course. You can go to ShowrunnerCourse.com if you’re interested in getting more information about that, too. Kelton Reid: Outstanding, thanks again for all of your time. Jerod Morris: Absolutely, thank you, Kelton. This was great. Kelton Reid: Cheers, thank you for tuning into The Writer Files. I look forward to checking out your own writerly podcasts. For more episodes of the show and all of the show notes, or to leave us a comment or question, drop by WriterFiles.FM, and you can always chat with me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers, see you out there.

Multiple New York Times bestselling author Daniel Pink stopped by The Writer Files to chat about his secrets for getting words onto the page.   Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! Mr. Pink is the author of five provocative titles on the subjects of business, work, and human behavior — including To Sell is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others — and has written for The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, The Sunday Telegraph, Fast Company, and Wired. In addition to having one of the most viewed TED talks of all time — “The puzzle of motivation” — Dan recently hosted and co-executive produced the TV series “Crowd Control” for the National Geographic Channel. In this file Daniel Pink and I discuss: Why You Should Never Check Email Before You Write The Effectiveness of Word Count Quotas Why the Adage “Butt-in-Chair” Really Works How to Structure Your Writing Schedule to Beat “Resistance” The Author’s Exhaustive Reading Recommendations His Fantasy Chipotle Table Guests And Why You Need to Get Over Yourself and Get to Work Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes http://www.danpink.com/ Dan Pink’s TED talk: “The puzzle of motivation” Crowd Control on National Geographic Channel Daniel Pink on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Bestselling Author Daniel Pink Writes Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. Multiple New York Times bestselling author, Daniel Pink stopped by The Writer Files to chat about his secrets for getting words onto the page. Mr. Pink is the author of five provocative titles on the subjects of business, work, and human behavior, including To Sell Is Human, The Surprising Truth About Moving Others. He’s also written for The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, The Sunday Telegraph, Fast Company, and Wired. In addition to having one of the most viewed TED Talks of all time, The Puzzle of Motivation, Dan recently hosted and co-executive produced the TV series Crowd Control for the National Geographic Channel. In this File, Daniel and I discuss why you should never check email before you write, the effectiveness of word-count quotas, whether the adage ‘butt-in-chair” really works, how to structure your writing schedule to beat resistance, and why you need to get over yourself and get to work. If you enjoy The Writer Files podcast, please do me a favor and leave a rating or a review in iTunes to help other writers find us. Thanks for listening. Dan, thanks so much for agreeing to come on The Writer Files and update your file. Daniel Pink: I’m happy to be here. Actually, I thought that this was The Rockford Files. Kelton Reid: I think that’s been off the air. Daniel Pink: I thought it’d be so cool. I’m going to be on The Rockford Files. I thought that show was off the air. Kelton Reid: Now that you know that you’re not on The Rockford Files, would you like to update your writer file? Daniel Pink: Sure, why not. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Let’s talk about you the author. For listeners who may not know you or your work, who are you, and what is your area of expertise as a writer? Daniel Pink: Who am I? I am Daniel Pink. I am a middle-aged white man who lives in Washington, D.C. For the last 18 years, I have been working for myself and mostly centered around writing books. The books tend to be about business, work, and human behavior. Kelton Reid: Where can we find your writing? Daniel Pink: You can find it at your local library, in your favorite online or offline bookstore. You can find it online at DanPink.com. Kelton Reid: What are you presently working on, Dan? Daniel Pink: I am working on anticipating your next question. No, I’m not. Actually, believe it or not, Kelton, I am in the throes of trying to write a few book proposals to see which is the next book I want to write. Kelton Reid: To see which one sticks? Daniel Pink: Yeah. Here’s the thing. Even though I’ve been doing this for a fairly long time, I still try to write fairly thorough proposals before I launch into a book. That’s less for the publisher than it is for me. It offers me a way to stress test the idea to see whether I’m interested in it, to see whether it holds up, to see whether I want to spend the next two years working on this kind of thing. That’s what I’m doing right now. I’m actually writing multiple proposals just to see which one or ones feel the best. Kelton Reid: Yeah, technically this is what nonfiction writers do to get the ball rolling there. Actually, listeners may not know that you are also a TV producer. Daniel Pink: Well, barely, yeah. Kelton Reid: TV producer is code for also writer. Were you writing your National Geographic show as well? Daniel Pink: A little bit of it. What I was doing more than anything else was actually helping conceive the segments, figure out the segments, lay them out. Also, the way that we did the show required a lot of on-the-fly decisions. For the handful of listeners who didn’t see every episode of the show, Crowd Control, I should point out that the show was a really great show on National Geographic. We did 12 episodes of a series where we took problems out there in the world, things like people speeding, people jaywalking, people parking in disabled spaces, kids peeing in pools. Then, using social science and some cool design technology, we would put a solution in place, turn on our cameras, and see what happened. A lot of the ‘producing’ was actually on the fly where we do the experiment and see how people reacted. You had to figure out, “Okay, what’s going on here? How are we going to cover this?” and so forth. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Thinking on your feet quite a bit. Daniel Pink: Yeah. Kelton Reid: Very cool. When you’re getting ready to launch into a bigger writing project, how much time would you say per day that you’re researching or reading about your topic? Why You Should Never Check Email Before You Write Daniel Pink: It really depends. My process, generally, for a nonfiction book, is to begin with a skeletal outline. It depends on how I’m doing the research. If it’s research that involves reading a lot of papers and so forth, that’s one thing. If it involves doing actual reporting where you’re going out interviewing people, watching stuff happening, that’s another story. In the reporting and research phase, I like to spend, where I can, most of the workday on it. Kelton Reid: Before you sit down to actually get clacking there, do you have any pre-game rituals or practices that get you in the mode? Daniel Pink: Pre-game rituals, no. What I will do many times is I’ll check my email just to make sure that there isn’t something urgent. That’s always a really bad idea. You just go down the rabbit hole of useless email. In terms of do I say any prayers, have rosary beads, or spin three times on my desk, I don’t do anything like that. I just open the door and put my butt in the chair. Kelton Reid: Very nice. Do you write every day when you’re working on something big? The Effectiveness of Word Count Quotas Daniel Pink: When I’m working on something big, I do. When I’m working on a book or it’s at that stage where I’ve done enough research, where I feel like I’ve more or less mastered a lot of the material and can move on to executing it, I actually think of it as bricklaying where I’ll come to my office, show up in my office at a certain time, like say 9:00. I’ll set myself a word count for the day. Let’s say 500 words. I will then turn off my phone, turn off my email, and then I will do nothing, truly nothing, until I hit my word count. If I hit my word count at 11:00 in the morning, hallelujah. If it’s 2:00 in the afternoon and I still haven’t hit my word count, I’m not going anywhere. I’ll cancel meetings and cancel phone calls in the afternoon if it takes me till. 8:00 in the evening, which it actually has unfortunately. I won’t do anything else. Kelton Reid: Got you. Is your most productive locale your office there that we’ve seen pictures of? Daniel Pink: Ah, yes, the beautiful Pink Ink world headquarters, which is a refurbished garage behind my house in Washington, D.C. That’s where the magic happens. Kelton Reid: Are you a writer who can listen to music while you write, or do you prefer silence? Daniel Pink: I can listen to music when I run or exercise. That’s it, or just listening to music for the sake of listening to music. I actually have the exact opposite view when I write. I have these little foam earplugs that I sometimes will put in just in case some imaginary sound is out there. I also even now have noise-canceling headphones that I will wear. I like silence. That way I can tune in more accurately to my own anguish. Kelton Reid: I like that. Are you someone who believes in writer’s block? Why the Adage ‘Butt-in-Chair’ Really Works Daniel Pink: No. I think writer’s block is a crock. I really do. I think that most writers agree with that. Writer’s block is for amateurs. Get your butt in the seat, and get to work. Kelton Reid: Let’s talk about your workflow. What hardware or typewriter are you using there in the garage? Daniel Pink: I’ve moved beyond typewriters, fortunately. Here’s what I’ve got in the setup. I’m looking at it right now. I have both a MacBook Air laptop and a 21-inch screen, maybe 25-inch screen iMac. I use my laptop, my Air for a lot of things. I actually will write books or even articles on the iMac. I don’t know why I do that. Because the screen is so big, I can put up a lot of stuff. The other thing that it does is it does fix me in place. Even though the files exist in Dropbox, I could do it anywhere. There’s something about that fixedness of coming to the same spot every single day, looking at the same screen every single day that helps me do stuff. Kelton Reid: What do you find in your workflow your most used software for writing and staying organized? Daniel Pink: For writing, I have made a dramatic leap into 1996 by using Word, although, as I said before, Dropbox is my co-pilot. I’ve become so reliant on putting everything in Dropbox. I have, though, being a modern guy, I’ve started to use Evernote a little bit. I can easily get by with Word and Dropbox. Kelton Reid: Your crucial outlining, that’s part of your organizational method. Do you have any other hacks, or are you a Post-it note guy at all? Daniel Pink: You know what I am? It’s interesting. It’s interesting to me because it’s about me. I’m not sure it’s interesting to anybody else. I use what I refer to as an — and this is a term of art — big-ass stickies, which are these giant Post-it notes. I prefer the graph paper versions of them. There’s something about graph paper that I love. It just makes me feel like I’m imposing some order on a world moving toward entropy or something. I don’t use whiteboard. I will use these big-ass stickies and put them all over my office. I like to write on stuff. I like to outline. I like to see it. I like to see stuff. I face a window, but if I turn my chair around, there’s a wall of cabinets. When I was writing this book, To Sell Is Human, I would have various outlines and things there. Sometimes, it sounds bizarre, but it actually works for me. Sometimes I will just turn my chair and look at the outlines, just look at them, and let it simmer a little bit. For me, seeing that stuff on the walls is really helpful. Kelton Reid: Do you have any best practices for beating procrastination? I know you’ve mentioned it. Are you someone who leans into the procrastination? How to Structure Your Writing Schedule to Beat ‘Resistance’ Daniel Pink: Yeah, I think that I and many people, most writers face what Steven Pressfield calls the ‘Resistance’ every single day. All of the forces of the universe are conspiring to make you stop writing. I think that what helps beat procrastination is as weird as it is, is a structure. When I go to sleep the night before, I know what I’m doing that next morning. I’m writing 500 words. I don’t want to get to the office, turn on my computer and say, “Huh, what should I do today? Should I type in ESPN.go.com and spend an hour there, or should I write 500 words? Hmmm, I don’t know. Maybe I’ll do the ESPN thing.” I don’t want to have that. I want to have the structure to say, “The choice is made for me. Here’s what you do.” That’s how I beat procrastination. Kelton Reid: Nice. Daniel Pink: Sometimes procrastination wins. Procrastination is a ferocious opponent. Kelton Reid: Well put. At the end of a long day, how do you unplug? Daniel Pink: I’m a pretty boring guy. I don’t really do all that much, Kelton. My wife and I have three kids. I actually spend a lot of time, compared to maybe some other people, I like to spend time with my family. I just like talking to them, hanging out with them. That’s one thing that I do. Especially when I’m writing, I try to run every day if I possibly can. When we’re done here today, I will go for a run, probably go faster because I’m so exhilarated by talking about myself. I like to eat good food and drink good wine. Because I’m on the verge of being an old man, I like to listen to baseball on the radio. Kelton Reid: Very nice. Daniel Pink: I basically just ensured that no one would ever want to hang out with me. Voiceover: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. Kelton Reid: Let’s talk about creativity a little bit. I know in your work creativity is a big part of getting into … a lot of what you talk about involves storytelling and even though you talk about social behavior and psychology, can you define creativity in your own words? How Dan Defines Creativity, Sans a Muse Daniel Pink: Creativity is giving the world something it didn’t know it was missing. That’s my favorite definition. I think that the definition originally came from Paola Antonelli at the Museum of Modern Art. Kelton Reid: When do you personally feel the most creative? Daniel Pink: Aside from right now? Kelton Reid: Yes. Daniel Pink: Yeah, when do I feel the most creative? It’s weird. I actually sometimes feel the most creative when I’m in motion, whether I’m running or traveling somewhere. I get a lot of good ideas when I’m in motion. Kelton Reid: I’ve had many of guests actually mention that they get a lot of work done on the plane. Do you find that phenomenon as well? Daniel Pink: I can’t write on planes. I probably could if I had to. I don’t like writing on planes. It’s just not the right environment for me for whatever weird idiosyncrasies. I can focus pretty intently on planes. I can edit on planes. I’ll edit pages. This is just another just really exciting facet of my life. I will sometimes batch my email and spend an airplane ride answering 70 emails. Kelton Reid: Circling back to our friend who talks about Resistance, do you have a creative muse? Daniel Pink: No, come on. I’m a bricklayer who happens to use a computer. Do people really give you a serious answer to that? Kelton Reid: I don’t know. Daniel Pink: I’m serious. Come on, do people say, “Oh yes, my creative muse is named Daphne and she appears to me in the corner of my office every day at 8:00.” Kelton Reid: Sure. Daniel Pink: Come on. Kelton Reid: It probably should be redacted. Daniel Pink: No, I like it. It’s basically a test to see who’s full of it and who’s not. I think if the answer is yes, you should cease the interview. Kelton Reid: This interview’s over so, in your opinion, what makes a writer great? Daniel Pink: That’s an interesting question. What makes a writer great? I think it’s the ability to look at something that other people have looked at and see something entirely different, if that makes any sense. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Daniel Pink: I think that’s part of it. I also think it’s the ability to linger in somebody’s mind long after the encounter is over. I think that’s a mark of a really good writer. Kelton Reid: Do you have some favorite authors at the moment? Dan’s Exhaustive Reading Recommendations Daniel Pink: Gazillions of them. I think there’s so many, so many, so many good writers out there. I think that you can learn from lots of them. I would have to give you not an exhaustive, but just a gigantic, massive list. For instance, Michael Lewis, the guy’s unbelievably good. It’s irritating how good he is. He’s really just extraordinary. I would put Michael Lewis on the top of any list. Katherine Boo, who is a journalist, I think she’s extraordinary. I like the short story writer, novelist sometimes, Edgar Keret, Israeli guy, who writes these super short, iddy biddy short stories. I like the Japanese novelist Haruki Muraukami. I like Junot Diaz. I love Colson Whitehead, another novelist. In my world, I also like Malcolm Gladwell. Some people think it’s uncool, but I think he’s awesome. I like sheer business writers like Seth Godin and Tom Peters. My favorite novel in the last decade is a book called Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk by a guy named Ben Fountain. I like Phillip Roth. I like Toni Morrison, those kind of legendary writers. I like George Pelecanos, a local guy who writes. I like Adam Kilgore, who’s a sports writer for The Washington Post. I used to love reading Gary Smith’s stuff in Sports Illustrated. I think that Derek Thompson at The Atlantic is one of the best young writers around. There’s so many, so many great people. There’s so many. Kelton Reid: You share a lot of great quotes in your work and in your speaking. Can you share maybe a best loved quote that floats to the top right now? Daniel Pink: That floats to the top. I like the Ralph Waldo Emerson quote that says, “I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.” I like that. Also, there’s a great Viktor Frankl quote. Viktor Frankl says, “Live as if you were already living for a second time and as if you had made the mistakes you are about to make now.” I think that’s incredibly good advice. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Let’s do a couple of fun questions next. Daniel Pink: I thought the first ones were fun. Kelton Reid: Good. I shouldn’t preface it like that. Who is your favorite literary character? Daniel Pink: Favorite literary character, it’s going to be weird because he’s just so deranged. I would say Nathan Zuckerman from the Phillip Roth Zuckerman novels. Please do not, listeners, impute any psychological meaning to that. Kelton Reid: That’s right. Daniel Pink: I just love his level of derangement and his obsessiveness. Also, I like the fact that Roth was able to carry him through multiple books. Kelton Reid: If you could choose one author from any era for an all-expense paid dinner to your favorite spot, where would you go, and who would you take? Dan’s Fantasy Chipotle Table Guests Daniel Pink: Just one? Kelton Reid: I’m sorry. Well, in your case, you can bring two. Daniel Pink: Yeah, I’m going to break this rule a little bit. I actually have an answer to that. It doesn’t quite conform to the structure that you’re giving me. I say this in all seriousness. If it were somehow metaphysically possible, I would like to sit down with Mohammed, Buddha, and Jesus. I would make sure that I had my voice recorder, maybe even iPhone video to record the whole thing. I think it would be a great documentary. I think it would be an awesome book, too. The reason for that is that if you think about writers, thinkers, philosophers, whatever you want to call them, who had a long-reaching affect, those guys did. There are people out there who still care about Jesus, and still care about Mohammed, and still care about Buddha. We like to think, “Oh, Shakespeare had such a great influence.” Jesus has about 1,600 years on him. Kelton Reid: Interesting. Where would this meal take place? Daniel Pink: It’s got to be Chipotle. Can you imagine, just walk into Chipotle with Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha? Those guys, I’d feel chagrined taking them to a fancy restaurant. It’d be antithetical to a lot of what they stand for. I think we’re going to Chipotle. Kelton Reid: I can only imagine the faces of the other diners at Chipotle. Hopefully I won’t make a political crack there. Do you have a writer’s fetish at all? Daniel Pink: What do you mean by a writer’s fetish? Kelton Reid: It could be metaphorical. It could be something physical. Daniel Pink: I get it now. Believe it or not, I use pencils. I really like using pencils for editing. I hate mechanical pencils. I think mechanical pencils are Satan’s creation. I like regular old pencils that I sharpen. I use those for almost everything that I do at my desk. Kelton Reid: Cool. Who or what has been your greatest teacher? Daniel Pink: My mistakes, no question. Kelton Reid: Can you offer any advice to fellow writers on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? Why You Need to Get Over Yourself and Get to Work Daniel Pink: There’s a theme to this. It’s the same thing, which is basically get to work. Get over yourself. Get to work. Sit in the chair, and start working. If the ink isn’t flowing or the cursor’s not moving, maybe take a walk or something like that, but otherwise, make it move. Again, it’s like the question about the muse. If you’re waiting for the muse to strike you, you’re going to be there for a long time. That cursor’s going to be blinking forever. Kelton Reid: I want listeners to remember that the muse question is really the disqualifier. Daniel Pink: It’s the disqualifier for this. Kelton Reid: Where can fellow scribes connect with you out there? Daniel Pink: Fellow scribes, you can connect with me on the website DanPink.com. I spend more time than should on Twitter where my handle is @DanielPink. Those are two good ways to reach me or find out what’s going on. I do an email newsletter. It’s an irregular and irreverent email newsletter that I do just to stay in touch with readers, that lists maybe some tips that I’ve learned over the years, or stuff that I’m reading that I like. Kelton Reid: I am signing up for that as we speak. Daniel Pink: Thank you. Kelton Reid: Thank you so much for coming on The Writer Files and updating your file. I’m a big fan. I look forward to seeing your latest and greatest. Hopefully, we’ll see your face some more on television as well. Daniel Pink: We’ll see. I appreciate it. These are fun questions. For the print version of what you do, I like reading other people’s answers, too. It’s really interesting. I’m surprised that some people take themselves more seriously than I think that they should. Other people give some really, really great insight into what it’s like. I also think that there would be some insight in somebody going through a lot of your interviews and finding the common themes. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Daniel Pink: If someone were to go through the interviews and say, “What are the common themes among all the people you talk to?” I think that would be fascinating. Kelton Reid: Yeah, definitely. I will also remind the listeners that the transcripts from all of the shows are posted to the website, WriterFiles.FM, shortly after the interview goes live out there in the world. You can actually find all of the printed versions of these. They are edited as well, so they actually spell things correctly. Daniel Pink: Wow. Kelton Reid: Yes, I’m telling you. Thanks again, Dan. I really appreciate your time. Daniel Pink: All right, appreciate it. Thanks, Kelton. See you later. Kelton Reid: Cheers. Thank you for tuning in to The Writer Files. Get your butt back in the saddle. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all of the show notes, or to leave us a comment, or a question, simply drop by WriterFiles.FM. You can always chat with me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

New media pioneer and entrepreneur Darren Rowse — creator of both Digital Photography School and ProBlogger — joined me to chat about the opportunities that 13 years of blogging have provided, his new podcast, and the importance of having the right mindset as a writer.   Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! This sage blogging veteran and educator has blazed an inspiring path for enterprising online publishers. His step-by-step blog series — 31 Days to Build a Better Blog — went from zero to viable business in no time, and now it’s a podcast every content creator can listen to … for free. In this file Darren Rowse and I discuss: Why You Should Write Like You Talk How a Book Deal Was Born from a Blog Series How Writing Offline Can Boost Your Word Count The 3 Types of Writer’s Block All Bloggers Eventually Face How Public Accountability Can Light a Fire Under Your Ass Why You Need a Balance Between Dreaming and Doing How to Get the Maximum Impact From Your Writing Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes ProBlogger.com Digital Photography School Darren Rowse Speaking at WDS Problogger: Secrets for Blogging Your Way to a Six-Figure Income by Darren Rowse and Chris Garrett 31 Days to Build a Better Blog Problogger Podcast Problogger on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How ProBlogger s Darren Rowse Writes Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are the Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer s block. New media pioneer and entrepreneur Darren Rowse, creator of both Digital Photography School and ProBlogger joined me to chat about the opportunities that 13 years of blogging have provided, his new podcast, and the importance of having the right mindset as a writer. The sage blogging veteran and educator has blazed an inspiring path for enterprising online publishers. His step-by-step series, 31 Days to Build a Better Blog, went from zero to viable business in no time, and now it’s a podcast every content creator can listen to for free. In this File, Darren Rowse and I discuss why you should write like you talk, how a book deal was born from a blog series, how writing offline can boost your word count, the three types of writer’s block all bloggers eventually face, and why you need a balance between dreaming and doing. If you enjoy The Writer Files podcast, please do us a favor and leave a rating or a review in iTunes to help other writers find us. Thanks for listening. Darren, thank you so much for joining me on The Writer Files. I really appreciate you stopping by. Darren Rowse: You’re welcome. Kelton Reid: For listeners who may not be familiar with your incredibly inspiring story, who are you, and what is your area of expertise as a writer? Darren Rowse: Yes. I’m Darren. I live in Melbourne, Australia. I’m a dad — that’s probably the number-one thing in my life at the moment. That’s one of my major defining parts of me, I guess. In terms of the writing side of things, 13 years ago, I wasn’t a writer at all. I would have said I was a communicator. I did some public speaking, but had never really written before. I stumbled upon blogging after a friend shot me a link to a blog and just fell in love with the medium. That was November 2002, and within 10 minutes, I knew I needed to have a blog even though I had no idea what one really was. I muddled my way through setting one up, and so that became my journey of writing. I discovered that my love of communication extended into that written field. Why You Should Write Like You Talk Darren Rowse: But I came to it with no experience and no real expertise in anything, I would say. That first blog was a personal blog. I wrote about anything and everything and just gradually over time found my voice. I don’t really know what my voice is, but I found it and began to realize that people were responding to me writing like I talked — in a very conversational tone — and I also discovered that I love to teach people and help people to learn and to find their potential in different areas. That personal blog began to transition into me writing tutorials on anything and everything and on a whole heap of different niches. Gradually, over time, I grew an audience. For one reason or another, people seemed to connect with what I was doing and began to break out those topics onto separate blogs. I’ve been blogging for about 13 years, but it transitioned into a number of blogs, two of which remain today. One’s ProBlogger, which is a blog about blogging, which is sad, but it turns out a lot of people wanted to learn about that. Then the other one’s on photography, so Digital Photography School. It really started out as me teaching my friends how to take better photos with these great cameras that they had that they never switched out of automatic mode. I just began writing really simple tips and tutorials on how to hold cameras and what aperture is and what shutter speed is. I’ve really focused my writing on how-to content and in those two fields. Although, I’ve transitioned those two blogs into me really being more of a publisher than a writer because I feature a lot of writers now on those blogs, too. Kelton Reid: Yes, as well-known as those sites are — and I’ll point, obviously, to both in the show notes — I’ve heard you speak at Authority Intensive with Copyblogger, and just your starting, as a mindset, it’s truly inspiring I think for writers. Writers should always seek out those sites. ProBlogger, obviously, has been a pioneering voice clearly. It speaks for itself. But also, I think your speaking should be sought out as well. I found some of your replays, which I will also post in the show notes, from some of your speaking engagements, and I think for writers, those are also a true inspiration. I’ll skip on as I’m hoarding the mic here. Where else can we find your writing in addition to ProBlogger and Digital Photography? How a Book Deal Was Born from a Blog Series Darren Rowse: Yeah, so they’re kind of my home bases, but out of those two blogging experiences, other opportunities have come to write, and I never would have expected some of the things that came along. The biggest one, and one of the earliest ones, was an opportunity to write a book. I got an email one day from a guy who claimed to be at Wiley in the US, and he said, We’d love to publish a book with you. I really thought it was a joke, because I’d never had book writing on my radar at all, but that was true, and it was real. It felt a little bit big and hard for me to write a book, so I coerced Chris Garrett, who is now at Copyblogger as well, to write it with me, and so we co-authored the ProBlogger book. That’s probably where you’d find the biggest chunk of my writing in one place, although Chris wrote half of it as well. I didn’t really enjoy writing it, but it was a great experience, and it’s now had three editions, so it seems to have connected well. Then the other places that I’ve written would be in ebooks, and this is the other opportunity that came out of both sites was to initially update and collate a lot of the content that I’d created into one volume in an ebook on ProBlogger called 31 Days to Build a Better Blog, which really emerged out of a series of blog posts. Then on Digital Photography School, I also wrote a portrait ebook, which is no longer on the market. I got actual photographers to write our new portrait books, but that was I guess my first foray into ebooks on that site. To this day, we’ve published about 30 ebooks as well, but most of them have been written by other authors who have expertise in particular topics. Kelton Reid: That’s cool. I know that the story behind 31 Days to Build a Better Blog is a pretty amazing one, which will kind of dovetail into the next question, which is what are you presently working on? Darren Rowse: It did emerge from a series of posts that I wrote in 2007, and it really led to a lot of life for the blog. I repeated it in 2009, I think it was. My readers started to basically say, We want you to put it into a book for us, because we love this series of posts, but we want to keep going over it again and again. I designed it as a very practical here’s something to learn, but here’s something you can do today, and it was really about developing habits of blogging and good blogging. I put it into that ebook, and I was really dubious about whether anyone would buy it because it was all on the blog for free. I updated it a little and added a little content, but it sold thousands of copies every day for the first week that I launched it. It really opened my eyes to this new way of communicating through ebooks. That was back in 2010, I think. So that ebook, we updated it in 2012. And more recently, I’ve turned it into a podcast series, so that’s probably the main thing that I’m working on this month. There’s a whole heap of other things that are always on the go for us. We run an event here in Australia as well, so that’s six weeks away now, for 700 bloggers this year. That’s kind of on my mind as well. I’ve always got these little preliminary stages of thinking for books and other projects as well, so I’m not writing a whole heap this month, but there’s dreams and thoughts there to write again on a larger scale. Kelton Reid: Very cool, and the podcast itself is fantastic, I will say. Congrats on the early success of that. I have checked out the first week or so of it, and it’s inspiring, so writers should also seek that out. Darren Rowse: There’s some good writing challenges in there for people. Kelton Reid: Absolutely, and anyone who wants to take their blogging game to the next level. Let’s talk a little bit about your productivity. As a truly prolific blogger and online publisher, how much time per day would you say you are reading or doing research? Darren Rowse: I would say at the start of this year, that was an area that had been suffering. For me, I’d become so busy that I wasn’t really filling my cup and staying in touch with the industries that I was kind of working in because I was producing so much, and it started to impact my output, and also my health as well. I was so busy. So I made a concerted effort to change the daily structure that I had, and that included putting a walk right into the middle of my day for at least half an hour, sometimes as much as an hour. That’s an area where I’ve filled up with listening to podcasts and audiobooks, and that’s really new for me. I hadn’t listened to a book ever before those walks, and podcasts, I’d only ever listened to a few. That’s probably where I’m getting most of my research and input at the moment. I do read quite a bit during the day of blogs, but not so much in terms of books. If I’m doing a new project, or if I’m preparing for a presentation or a new ebook, that’s when I do a lot of my research. I tend to batch my research. I don’t tend to be someone who’s just researching for the sake of keeping up with things. I tend to be someone who needs a purpose for that research. I need a problem that I’m trying to solve, and that’s where I go into research mode. I quite enjoy it, but not just for the sake of doing it. There needs to be a reason. Kelton Reid: Before you actually sit down to write, do you have any pregame rituals or practices that help you get into the flow? Darren Rowse: Coffee is a big part of that, but that’s just to do anything, really. I don’t have a whole heap. I would say I probably like to have a clean desk, so that’s one thing that I tend to … It’s not clean at the moment, so I obviously don’t have a big project. But a clean desk, a clean white board, and a new notebook probably are the three things that I like to have. I do tend to procrastinate until those things are done. I have also been known to faff around a little bit and look at what tools and apps are out there and chop and change those a bit before I start writing. But I don’t really have any rituals as such. Kelton Reid: I think I know the answer to this next question, but I’m going to ask anyway. Do you write every day? Darren Rowse: I would say I probably don’t write every day anymore, and that’s something I have some regrets around. I tend to be someone who writes, most days, something, whether it be short blog posts or articles. I do tend to batch my writing. So Monday mornings are a time where I write quite a bit, and I try and write multiple blog posts for the week. If I’m writing a larger, like a book or an ebook, I tend to put aside a week to write it and clear everything else out, and that’s what I do with the podcasts. I set aside a week to record 31 episodes. I have a fairly short attention span, so I find if I’m writing for a year, I lose interest too quick. So I need to really chunk out a lot of stuff quickly. I do write something every day — emails — but yeah, it’s not on those projects. I tend to chunk it a bit more. Kelton Reid: I see. So do you commit to a certain amount of time, then, excluding that social media stuff, which I know you’re in kind of constant contact with that stuff, but … ? How Writing Offline Can Boost Your Word Count Darren Rowse: Yeah. I tend to write offline when I can. So I do go to a café quite a bit to write if I need to do that, and they don’t have Wi-Fi. I could get on with my phone, but I tend to avoid doing that unless I have to. I find that once I get in the zone of writing, I can go anywhere from an hour to four hours without any problem and almost get lost in it. I love that space. I love being in that zone and just firing. It does get a little awkward when you’re not drinking coffee in the café. Typically during the day, I’ll work in 50- to 60-minute bursts, but I go with the flow if it’s firing. Kelton Reid: Nice. Are you a morning person, or do you like to write at night? Darren Rowse: Creativity-wise, I’m very much a writing in the morning person. However, I have noticed around 4:30 in the afternoon, about half an hour before I’m supposed to get back with the family and stop working, that’s often a time that I get inspiration bombs. I don’t whether it’s because there’s that looming deadline — and I do work well with deadlines — but that’s often another time that I just need to put aside a little time to just vomit out anything that’s in my head that I need to get out. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Do you like to listen to music at all while you’re writing, or do you prefer the silence? Darren Rowse: I enjoy music, but not while I’m writing. I love white noise, so the cafe’s a place that it just flows for me a bit more. They do have music there, but I don’t notice it at all. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Darren Rowse: It’s just in the background. It’s just there. Kelton Reid: There’s something about that coffee shop noise that seems to work very well for writers. Darren Rowse: Yeah. I think it’s also being around people — and I’m not looking at the people — but just being aware that there are other people, for me, makes me aware that there are people that are going to read what I’m writing as well. There s something about that social environment without actually talking to anyone. As an introvert, I kind of enjoy that connection without being intensely connected, and I think that infects my writing in some ways as well. A lot of people reflect back that they feel like I’m talking to them, and sometimes I do look at the people around me and pretend that they’re the person I’m writing to. There s something about that I haven’t quite defined yet, but it’s really important for my writing I think. Kelton Reid: Do you believe in writer’s block, Darren? The 3 Types of Writer s Block All Bloggers Eventually Face Darren Rowse: I would say that I’ve suffered from something maybe like writer’s block, but as I’ve thought about it over the years, I’d say there’s three types for me. I’d say I get ideas block, which is where I can’t work out what to write about. I think many bloggers who’ve been blogging for a year or two feel, one, I’ve written it all before, I’ve got nothing left to say, What could I write fresh today? or Everyone else has already written about it. I haven’t got anything unique to say. So that blockage of finding a unique angle and a freshness to your topic, I think, is one thing I’ve suffered. The second type for me is writing block, and that’s where the words just aren’t flowing. You’ve got the idea, and you know the topic you want to write about, but you just can’t make it come out in a sensible way. Then, for me, the third one is completion block, and that’s where the first draft’s done, but I’m just so distracted or on the next thing that I’m really into, or I’m too tired, or I’ve lost the passion or interest for what I’m writing about to complete it. That’s probably the area I’ve struggled with the most over the years is that lack of revision and editing, so that’s why I hired an editor to basically oversee that and crack the whip for me in that. I think for me — writer’s block — I don’t know what that is, but for me there’s those three things. For me, the key is to work at which one of those three things I’m suffering right now and then to make appointments with myself to put extra time and energy and to get help in those areas. Ideas block I had probably two years into my blogging, so I just built into my week time to brainstorm ahead of time when I wasn’t supposed to be writing. So I have now got a bank of ideas sitting there, and I also involve my team in that brainstorming time. I haven’t had ideas block for quite some time because I’ve built that into my week. The writing block, again, regularity of writing helps with that as well. Making appointments on Monday mornings when I do a lot of my blog post writing, that sort of helped to unlock that. Then the completion block, I have times in my week, usually in the afternoons, where I set aside time to edit and revise because I don’t need to be quite so creative there, but I need to be a little bit more analytical. Kelton Reid: Wow. Let’s talk about your workflow a little bit. What hardware or typewriter model are you presently using? Darren Rowse: There’s not been a typewriter in my life for many years, but I just use a MacBook Pro when I’m out and about and an iMac on my desktop. I just love the fact that they talk to each other now with iCloud and Dropbox and all those wonderful tools that connect them. Kelton Reid: Yeah. I’m a huge fan myself. Do you have some favorite software that you use for writing? Darren Rowse: I try to keep things pretty simple. I’ve tried a lot of the writing tools. I can’t even remember the names of most of them, but these days I tend to write a lot of my stuff in Evernote. If it’s a larger project, I’ll set up a notebook for that and then break it down into sections or chapters in different notes and then have other notes for outlines and to-do lists and all that kind of stuff. I find it’s pretty simple to use, and a lot of the other tools, it got too complicated for me. Evernote seems to work quite well, and I like that I can share it with my team as well to be involved in that process. For blogging I use a little tool called MarsEdit as well, which is kind of like a document creator that you can put your images into and format everything in the app, and then you can upload it to your blog and don’t have to edit it in the blog. Kelton Reid: Interesting. I’ll have to get that link from you. Do you have any organizational hacks? Darren Rowse: Evernote has kind of changed things for me on that front. I tend to whiteboard in the early stages of a project. I like to be able to visualize it. I occasionally will mind-map using a little tool called MindNode. I also have been known to use Post-It notes spread out all over my floor, so whatever it takes to visualize how things fit together. I think in terms of the organization of my writing, I had some training 20 years ago in public speaking, and it was all based around breaking your talk down into two-minute modules and to really creating modules that chop and change and take people through different phases of what you want to present. I think that’s flowed into my writing. I tend to write in very small, short, sharp sections, and a module might be a metaphor or a story or a teaching point and then sort of chopping and changing those. I tend to visualize my writing in that sort of style. They’re probably the tools I use the most. I would say I also use Wunderlist as an organizational tool as well, so I’m very big on lists and setting myself to-do lists to check off during the day. Kelton Reid: Procrastination, the beast of procrastination — do you find yourself leaning into that or do you have some other kind of best practices? How Public Accountability Can Light a Fire under Your Ass Darren Rowse: I find I do procrastinate, but it’s not just a lazy kind of, Eh, I ll get it done. It s more of a prioritization and listening to my energy levels as well. I tend to work best when I’m excited about something, so I tend to listen to that more than I used to and go to the places where I’ve got energy. But I also work very well to deadlines. It stresses me out when something’s looming, but I know that that’s when I’ll do my best work, so that’s important. The other thing I’d say with procrastination, for me, and getting things done, is that accountability is a big thing. I respond really well when other people have an expectation of me. It’s not just an internal expectation of myself. I don’t really respond well to that at all. I respond if other people are waiting for something. So if I really need to get something done, I publicly announce when it will be ready, and I’ve done that quite a few times. I Tweeted with the podcast that I just launched. I publicly announced that it was coming on the first of July before I had recorded an episode, and that motivates me a lot, because I don’t like to be seen missing a deadline. Kelton Reid: That’s right. How do you unplug at the end of a long day there? Darren Rowse: I have to stop working at 5pm. That’s just a family rule, and so that helps as well, and I find the shenanigans of family life pretty much force me out of work mode at that time. I do work once the kids go back to bed, and our kids are fairly young, so I can get back to work at sort of 7:30. But I tend not to do creative stuff at that time because I find if I allow myself to try and get creative at night, I don’t sleep. If I do more admin logistical stuff in the evenings, social media scheduling and all that kind of stuff, I find that almost puts me to sleep. I also always try and give myself at least half an hour between the last work I do and bed just to decompress a little, and that usually involves TV. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/platform. Let’s talk about creativity some. I know you just mentioned creativity, inspiration, finding your passion and your energy. How do you define creativity? Why You Need a Balance Between Dreaming and Doing Darren Rowse: I think creativity for me is the process of turning a new, imaginative idea into reality, so for me, it’s got two parts. It’s about thinking and doing. The problem I see many people falling into the trap of is that they focus on one or the other. I think we all probably have a tendency to focus on one or the other, but we need to work on the other one. So for me, creative thinking and idea generation is what I love to do. I could sit there all day brainstorming, coming up with ideas, and dreaming of what could be, but for a while there, it didn’t really translate into doing a whole heap. So that’s the area that I have to work on. For me, it’s about completion. Again, that theme that came up earlier. I can think of ideas all day. I can start them, but not complete them, so that’s the area that I need to work on. For other people, I think they’re doers, and they don’t give enough time to the thinking and the dreaming and the imagining of what could be, so they end up doing and creating things that perhaps aren’t as imaginative as they could be. For me, creativity’s about finding the sweet spot between creative thinking and actual implementation and doing. Kelton Reid: Yeah. It’s interesting. You brought up before that you have a team that helps you get to that completion phase, but not everybody has both spheres, do they? Darren Rowse: No, and for me, until three years ago, I didn’t really have a team at all. One or two people I occasionally outsourced stuff to, but that was a big tension. Now I guess the tensions are that I ve got to manage people, and that’s not a skill that I really have and I need to grow as well. It really came down to just forcing myself to be organized and making appointments with myself to do those things I needed to do, which didn’t come naturally for me as a creative, airy-fairy kind of guy. Kelton Reid: We may have covered this already, but when do you feel most creative? Darren Rowse: I think there’s a number of things. Conversations with people often stimulate a creative moment for me, whether that be me having conversation with a friend, but also online, I find any sort of social media discussion stimulates ideas and creativity. Often when I do a webinar or even a podcast like this, I find, even preparing for this podcast. I had ideas and that creative thinking. I found myself going off on tangents in my thinking, so I think conversations are a big part of it for me. Getting input from podcasts and blogs and that type of thing. I also find that it’s when I’m not thinking about my work that I’m getting the creative ideas as well. So the shower — I know a lot of people say they get their best ideas in the shower. That’s me, but what I found is I was having my showers sandwiched by kid time. My kids would be there, and then I’d have a shower, and I’d get an idea, and the kids would be there. So I’ve started having showers later in the day so that I can then go and take those ideas that I have and implement them straightaway. I think the other part for me is just being healthy. This year I’ve really worked on my health a lot, and I’ve found myself being much more productive, but also much more creative. So I think all those factors play into when I’m most creative. Kelton Reid: Would you say that’s your creative muse at the moment? How to Get the Maximum Impact from Your Writing Darren Rowse: Yeah, I think so. I tend to get into little obsessions with things. So at times it’s photography, and at times, it’s health and walking, or those types of things. I think I need to keep mixing up that thing that I’m into, and when I do have a thing that I’m obsessed by, that often sparks and brings … I guess it just makes me feel alive. And when I feel alive, I’m more creative. It’s not that I do those things to make creativity come. It just is a byproduct. Kelton Reid: Just going back to the procrastination piece, Austin Kleon talks about productive procrastination and having multiple projects going all at once so that when you’re procrastinating on one project, you’re really being productive on another project. It kind of melds in with that thinking. You’ve seen so much writing, so much online writing and online publishing. What, in your mind, makes a truly great writer? Darren Rowse: I guess it depends on the medium and the style, but for me, I really respond to writers who are taking me on a journey, and I feel like they have thoughtfully taken me from one place to another. In my writing, what I am always trying to think about as I sit down to write is, What change am I trying to bring about in my reader? Whether that be a change in the way they feel, they think, whether it be giving them a new skill, giving them a sense of not feeling like they’re the only one, or a sense of belonging, or some new insight. I don’t want my readers to come away from the things that I write in the same state that they were when they started reading it, because that’s just wasting their time and mine. But if they go from point A to point B, that, to me, is success for my writing. I guess I’d translate that into most formats of writing, whether it be fiction or non-fiction. If I’ve changed as a result of reading a great book, then that’s great. That’s success. The same goes to how-to content that I focus on or other mediums. You want to be changing people, take them on a journey. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Do you have some favorite authors right now? Darren Rowse: To be honest, at the moment, I’ve not been doing as much reading as I should because I’ve been focusing more on podcasts. But I guess those audio books that I ve started to listen to, it’s been an interesting journey. I’m still not sure whether I enjoy the audio format or not, but I’ve reading — or listening to — Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning, and I’m enjoying that. I’m still towards the beginning, so I’m not ready to talk about it yet. Another book that I’ve been listening to is Tom Rath’s Fully Charged, which is all about having a full charge for your life, and that’s been interesting. This year I’ve also gone back. I’ve tried to make this year a year where I go back to books I’ve read before that have had some impact upon me. So I’ve gone back to Malcolm Gladwell’s Tipping Point, which started the journey for me, I guess, in some of my thinking. Then also, a book by an Aussie author, Gregory David Roberts, called Shantaram, which is sort of a fictional biography of his journeys as an escapee from a prison and went to India and had all these adventures, and no one really knows how much of the story’s true and how much of it’s not. It’s a whopping, massive book. It’s huge, but I just can’t wait for him to bring out a sequel. Although it’s been 20 years now, so maybe it’s not coming. Kelton Reid: You pull some really, really great quotes for your speaking engagements. Do you have a best-loved quote at the moment? Darren Rowse: Yeah, probably the one from the last year for me that I just keep coming back to and do use quite a bit in my speaking is John Schaar’s, The future is not someplace we’re going, but one we’re creating. The paths are not to be found, but made. The activity of making them changes both the maker and the destination. I’ve been using that quite a bit to encourage people to not just let their future happen to them, but to chase their dreams and take steps towards making their dreams and their futures a reality — the futures that they want rather than just falling into a future that maybe isn’t what they want. Kelton Reid: All right. Let’s do a couple fun ones. You may have already answered this. Do you have a favorite literary character? Darren Rowse: I’m not sure I would call my favorite literary character’s great works literature, but the ones that came to mind were all children’s characters. I don’t know if you ever came across the series called Biggles. It was a series of books that I read when I was probably eight or nine, and he was a pilot flying Sopwith Camels in World War I and World War II. There must have been heaps of these books, but he was always on an adventure. For me, that was probably my first experience of reading that just fired my imagination. Tintin — I don’t know if you ever came across Tintin? Kelton Reid: Oh yeah. Darren Rowse: Those were sort of graphic novels, I guess, in some ways, those comics are. My son has just started reading Tintin, and he is obsessed with it. I think Spielberg made the movie. So they’re probably two characters that come to mind because they bring out memories in me, but I can now also see the same thing happening in my children as they begin to read those books. Kelton Reid: If you could choose one author from any era for an all-expense-paid dinner to your favorite restaurant, who would you choose? Darren Rowse: Gosh. This is the third time this week I’ve been asked to have dinner with someone that I’ve wanted to meet. I always struggled with this question, but probably the one that comes to mind is one that I suspect you’ve not heard of, but another Aussie called Anh Do who wrote a great book called The Happiest Refugee. He’s a comedian, an Aussie comedian, one of the best-known Australian comedians. He comes from Vietnam originally and came to Australia as a refugee. I think he’d be pretty funny to have dinner with. He’s also just written this powerful story of overcoming challenges and doing some really amazing things. He’s also written a children’s book of the same topic, and my kids have really been impacted by that book. I’d love to sit with him and spend some time with him and hear his story from his mouth, and I guess, more so feedback the impact that he’s had on my kids learning about some really important lessons of life. Kelton Reid: Nice. Where would you take him? Darren Rowse: He’s got a Vietnamese background, so I do enjoy that food, so I’d let him choose some nice Vietnamese restaurant. Kelton Reid: Let me ask you, who or what has been your greatest teacher? Darren Rowse: I’d say my dad, probably. Dad was a pastor of a church, and so he spoke every week, and I saw him get up in front of people and communicate. He really didn’t have any agenda in self-promotion or anything other than really trying to serve people and make their lives better. I think that’s probably come across. I’ve picked that up in a lot of what I do. I’m perhaps not quite as humble as him, at times, and it’s hard to be in the social media environment where it’s me, me, me and promote yourself, promote yourself. I certainly didn’t see any of that in my father at all, and so that is a nice reminder to be a bit more grounded, perhaps. I try to live that. His heart for trying to help people and make people better through his communication is something that I try and live out as well in both my speaking but also writing. Kelton Reid: Nice. I skipped a question, which I’ll circle back to. Do you have a writer’s fetish at all? Darren Rowse: I don’t know that I really do. Most of my fetishes are probably more camera-related than writing. I like the look of all those typewriters that people have, but for me, I don’t have room on my shelves because I’ve got cameras everywhere. Kelton Reid: Got you. Can you offer any advice to fellow scribes on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? Darren Rowse: Yeah. I think for me, it’s about practice. You improve so much when you do. The rhythm of writing regularly — as much as I’m not in a daily rhythm at the moment, I think having certain times in the week where I write and edit and come up with ideas certainly is important for my writing and output. Write something meaningful to you that you know has the potential to change someone’s life. For me, that’s as much about being an effective communicator, but also it comes into the writing process as well. If I know that what I’m writing has the potential to really help someone, then I’m bringing much more energy and creativity to that process. Then fill your cup. If you’ve just got to keep giving input if you want to produce and so don’t let yourself get dry. Find the inspiration that you need in all areas of your life. I think the better your life is going, the better your output. Unless you want to be a poet or write angsty stuff. Maybe you need a bad life to do that. I don’t know. Kelton Reid: Where can fellow writers connect with you out there? Darren Rowse: I think probably the best place is ProBlogger, on Twitter @ProBlogger and then ProBlogger.com has all the different aspects of the ProBlogger brand, so it’s kind of a portal into the rest of the podcast and the blog and the ebooks and the different aspects of what I do. Kelton Reid: I do encourage writers to find the podcast, and it is available on iTunes and other reputable podcast publishing platforms. Darren Rowse: That’s right. Kelton Reid: Very good. Darren, thank you so much. You’re a huge inspiration to me and I know to lots of other writers both online and off, so thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me and do your Writer File. Darren Rowse: Thanks. Nice to chat with you. Kelton Reid: Thanks for tuning into The Writer Files. Now, go turn some of those crazy dreams into something that we can read. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all of the show notes, or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM. You can always chat with me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

Award-winning designer and marketing consultant Pamela Wilson — who has helped small businesses and large organizations alike create ”big brands” since 1987 — stopped by to chat about what it’s like to run the blog at Copyblogger.com, and her mission to publish impeccable online content. Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! As head of the editorial team for Copyblogger Media, she helps guide an abundance of educational content for one of the top online marketing, blogging, and copywriting sites in the world. Pamela’s unique point-of-view comes from the marriage of design, branding, content, and conversion — something she has coined “Customer Experience Design.” In this file Pamela Wilson and I discuss: How Coming Late to Writing Can Work in Your Favor Why Useful Content Creates Priceless Inroads for Writers The Difficulty of Designing a Remarkable Online Presence How Writing Has Become Her Yoga Practice Why You Should Commit to Writing 750 Words a Day The Hallmarks of Great Online Writing Why Picasso is an Inspiring Model for Writers to Follow Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Pamela’s Author Page on Copyblogger Big Brand System Blog The Bobby McFerrin Plan for Creating a Remarkable Business The Write Way to Answer Your Most Pressing Questions by Pamela Wilson 750words.com Accidental Genius: Using Writing to Generate Your Best Ideas, Insight, and Content by Mark Levy Pamela Wilson on Instagram Pamela Wilson on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Pamela Wilson (VP of Educational Content for Copyblogger) Writes Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. Award-winning designer and marketing consultant Pamela Wilson, who has helped small businesses and large organizations alike create big brands since 1987, stopped by to chat with me about what it’s like to run the blog at Copyblogger.com and her mission to publish impeccable online content. As head of the editorial team for Copyblogger Media, she helps guide an abundance of educational content for one of the top online marketing, blogging, and copywriting blogs in the world. Pamela’s unique point of view comes from the marriage of design, branding, content, and conversion — something she’s coined ‘customer experience design.’ In this file, Pamela Wilson and I discuss how coming to writing late can work in your favor, the difficulty of designing a remarkable online presence, why you should commit to writing 750 words a day, the hallmarks of great online writing, and why Picasso is an inspiring model for writers to follow. If you enjoy The Writer Files podcast, do me a favor and leave a rating or review in iTunes to help other writers find us. Thanks for tuning in. Pamela Wilson, thank you so very much for joining me on The Writer Files. Pamela Wilson: I am so happy to be here. You know, I’ve told you like five times. I’m so happy you invited me to The Writer Files. Kelton Reid: Well, it’s truly a pleasure to have you on, and I can’t wait to pick your brain and get into your file. Pamela Wilson: Awesome. I’m ready. Kelton Reid: Okay. Let’s talk a little bit more about you, the author. For listeners who aren’t familiar with your story — I’m sure that many of them already are — who are you, and what is your area of expertise as a writer? How Coming Late to Writing Can Work in Your Favor Pamela Wilson: So the funny thing is, I actually think I’m probably the least likely writer to appear on this series because I came to writing really late in my career. I like to think that might be helpful for some people who don’t think of themselves as writers. You may have a different area of expertise, but writing really is something that you can learn. We’ll talk about that a lot today because it’s something I learned. It was an important part of my professional development. My history is that I was the person who made writers’ words look great. I was working primarily as a designer, but also as a marketing consultant. In that work, part of what I did was people would give me Microsoft Word documents that had very little formatting in them. It was just basically the words on a page. What I would do is make those documents look fantastic, make people want to read them. I’d pull photos to put with them, format them, give them nice-looking fonts and colors, and all of that to draw people in and make them want to read them. I did that primarily through publication design, magazines, books, newsletters, and things like that. Some online design as well, but primarily print. All my career, that’s who I was. I was the person who made the words look good. I never supplied the words myself. I had this award-winning design business, so I did really well at that part of my career. But no one was asking me to write. Every once in a while, somebody would give me copy and they would forget to give me a headline, so I might write the headline for their copy. That was about the extent of it. That was the most I ever wrote except for emails to clients. That was about all I ever wrote. Back in the late 2009, I started to feel antsy. I had been doing this for a long time, and I felt like I’d figured out this system that worked really consistently for all of my clients to help to build a recognizable brand. It was relatively simple. It wasn’t expensive to implement, and it worked really consistently. Without fail, it always worked. I felt like I had figured something out. I wanted to share it, so I decided to write a book. This was the fall of 2009, and I was obsessed with this idea that I wanted to write a book. Right around that time I found Copyblogger. I don’t know where I had been hiding online. I had not found Copyblogger up until that time, and around that time, I did. Just a few weeks after I found Copyblogger, they launched Teaching Sells. I joined Teaching Sells because I thought, “Maybe this is a way to share my information by teaching it online instead of trying to write a book.” What happened as a result of taking Teaching Sells is, I put together a blog, Big Brand System, and I started writing for it consistently in January of 2010. Really, that was when I started writing. It’s only been a little over five years. Kelton Reid: Wow. I saw you speak at Authority Rainmaker Conference, and it was a truly inspiring session you did there. You talked about customer experience design, which I thought was really, really cool. A lot about content and building that warm, personal relationship. You were doing that online as proof of concept I guess? Why Useful Content Creates Priceless Inroads for Writers Pamela Wilson: I was. One of the things I talked about in that talk was the fact that it was so disconcerting to have this offline business that had worked really well and that I thought relied on having this personal connection with my clients. Then I went online, and I was like, “Well, how am I supposed to have a personal connection with people I can’t even see?” It was a huge revelation to me that, by crafting really useful and approachable and friendly content, you could make that same kind of connection. You could make that connection with your writing. That was a huge eye opener for me. I hadn’t realized that. Kelton Reid: Yeah, yeah. I love that. Where can we find more of your writing? Pamela Wilson: You can find a lot of my writing on BigBrandSystem.com, but nowadays, I’m actually running the day to day Copyblogger blog along with Demian Farnworth and Stefanie Flaxman. I write for Copyblogger a lot more than I write for Big Brand System nowadays, so you can mostly find me there. What happened with that is I got this inspiration when I was at this concert way back in 2010, so it was right after I had started my own blog. I went to this Bobby McFerrin concert, and I got hit by a bolt of lightning. I was like, “What he’s doing in this concert is what I need to be doing with my online business.” I got home from that concert and I told my family, “Okay, I need to do something in the office.” I closed myself in my office. I wrote this post and submitted it to Copyblogger, and it was published on Copyblogger, which was a huge moment. It was a very exciting moment for me. Then I started writing for Copyblogger on a regular basis, developed a nice relationship over time, and now, as you know, I’ve been working with Copyblogger as a member of the team. It’s been just a little over a year now. All of that happened because of my writing, because of this thing that I had never done before. Kelton Reid: Yeah. What projects do you have in the works presently? The Difficulty of Designing a Remarkable Online Presence Pamela Wilson: Well, at Copyblogger, the big thing that I’m working on is helping to tell our story in a more cohesive way. As you know, it’s a very complex company that we work for now. The offer is not something that’s easy to sum up in just one sentence. That’s a lot of what I’m working now — how to tell that story in a way that everyone understands the story right away. The one thing that I’ve kind of zeroed in on is that all of our products — whether it’s StudioPress, the Genesis Framework, or the child themes, or it’s the Rainmaker Platform, Synthesis, or any of our educational products, Authority or anything else that’s really focused on helping to educate people on how to run an online, digital-based business — all of those things are trying to help people to build a remarkable online presence. That’s the story I’m trying to tell about what we do as a company. I think that one story kind of brings everything together. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. That’s really cool. Let’s talk a little bit about your productivity. You’re a busy lady with all of the things that you get into on a daily basis. How much time per day would you say you’re reading or doing research? Pamela Wilson: I’ve listened to a few of these interviews before. You do such a great job, so I enjoy listening to them. They’re very inspiring. I hear people answer this question, and they say like, “Oh I spend two hours researching,” or “I spend four hours reading.” I always think to myself like, “Are those consecutive hours?” Because my day never works like that. I don’t have a chunk of two hours or four hours. It just never seems to work out that way. If I added up all of the little slices, I probably spend two hours total, but it’s divided into a lot of very thin slices. I like to listen to audio books while I exercise. I probably spend 20 to 30 minutes reading throughout the day and probably an hour researching things on websites, but it’s five minutes here and five minutes there. Kelton Reid: Right. Pamela Wilson: I don’t have this research hat that I put on and just close out the world and sit there and do my research. I have this alternate universe where I live where I spent all afternoon sitting in a hammock and reading and researching and thinking about what I’m going to do the next day, but I don’t actually live there. That’s not what my day usually looks like. Kelton Reid: No, no. Mine either, as you can probably guess. Let’s talk about before you kind of get into the writing mode. Do you have any pre-game rituals or kind of warm-up practices? How Writing Has Become Her Yoga Practice Pamela Wilson: The weird thing about this question is that I have thought about it. I’ve realized that my pre-game ritual has to do with my body position. This is going to be a weird answer. What I have found is no matter where I am, because I do travel quite a bit, I seem to do my best, fastest, most productive writing sitting in a chair with my legs crossed under me, and my laptop balanced on my knees. I have no idea why this is, but whether I’m here, at home in Nashville, or I’m travelling somewhere, I always seem to sit in that position. That’s how I write. It’s kind of good to have this body position that works. Then no matter where I am, as soon as I sit down, cross my legs, stick my laptop on my knees, I’m in writing mode. It’s really weird, but it’s very consistent with me. Kelton Reid: You’re like a writing yogi. Pamela Wilson: That’s funny. It is like a meditative position. I hadn’t thought about that. My fingers are not meditating while I’m doing that, I have to say. Kelton Reid: Do you have a most productive time of day or locale? Pamela Wilson: Well, locale doesn’t seem to matter as long as I’m in position, so that’s the good news because I move around a lot. That has worked out well to recognize that seems to be what works for me. As far as time of day, I would say first thing in the morning after a good night’s sleep and after I’ve had my morning caffeine is probably the best. Kelton Reid: Oh, yes. Pamela Wilson: I get the most done. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Well, you’re kind of a globetrotter, much like Sonia Simone, so I guess you have to find that perfect locale wherever you may be, be it Barcelona or elsewhere. Pamela Wilson: Right, I think so. Speaking of that, the other thing that I’ve noticed is I get so much done when I’m locked on a plane. I don’t know what it is. I think it’s because you may have Internet, but it’s usually spotty, so you tend to just have that off. You want something to do to pass the time. You end up writing. I do anyway. I always get so much done on planes. Kelton Reid: Austin Kleon said the same thing. Maybe I should fly more. Pamela Wilson: I don’t know what it is. It’s like you’re locked in this metal tube, and you need to do something to pass the time. I was on this flight a few months ago, actually I think it was on the way back from Authority, and I was doing the usual thing. I had my laptop open on the table in front of me, and I’m trying to get all this stuff done. It’s a little bit awkward because you have this person who’s right on your elbow next to you, and you’re just trusting that they’re not looking over your shoulder. I did all my writing. I got it all done, and then just as the flight is ending, she turns to me and says — this was the first thing that she had said to me the whole flight — “I’ve never seen someone use a track pad so quickly,” and I’m like “Okay.” Kelton Reid: Compliment or ? Pamela Wilson: I know. Hard to know how to take that. “I guess you were watching,” so that told me everything I needed to know. Kelton Reid: Do you stick on the headphones while you’re writing, or do you prefer silence? Pamela Wilson: I usually prefer silence. It works better for me to not have anything distracting me. That’s actually something I miss from my design days. When I was working on purely visual things, I used to be able to put music on in the background really loud. I could listen to whatever I wanted, and it would inspire what I was doing visually. I really can’t do that when I write. It’s too distracting. I miss that. I miss my music. Kelton Reid: How many hours would you say you put in when you do settle in for a session? Pamela Wilson: I’d say it’s about an hour. Sometimes it ends up being less. I love it when I can put in a full hour. I can get a lot done in an hour. Because I’m writing but I’m doing a lot of other things, it’s usually not much more than that. I wish it was more, but I don’t usually having more than that much time. Kelton Reid: Are you also of the school of writing every day? Why You Should Commit to Writing 750 Words a Day Pamela Wilson: Oh yes. I’m a huge believer in that. Actually, I have a post going up on Copyblogger, I think it’s actually this week that we’re talking about what I do to write every day, which is I use this site called 750words.com. It’s a very cool site. You basically sign up for it. There’s a small fee. I think it’s $5 a month or something. Then you commit to writing 750 words every day. This is a great length in my opinion because 750 words is long enough to be a blog post, so if you’re a content creator, it’s a way for you to get a blog post written. Oftentimes, I don’t use it for that. I just use it to physically write. To sit in front of a keyboard, put my fingers on the keys, make the move, and make words come out. I find the act of physically doing the writing is what makes the ideas flow. That’s what my post is about actually. That has ended up being a very surprising side benefit, to me anyway. That the act of sitting down and writing every day has actually helped me to come up with some amazing ideas and to solve problems that I could not figure out when I just thought about them. There is something about writing about them that — it sounds strange — but it’s like it allows you to tap into this part of yourself that’s really wise, that already knows what to do, and somehow you make that connection. By writing, those ideas can come out. I wrote about it in this post because it was a surprising side benefit that I was not expecting. It works so consistently now for me that, if I have something that I’m puzzling over and I can’t figure it out, I just kind of say, “Well, I look forward to writing about it,” because I have a feeling as soon as I write about it, I’ll know what to do. Kelton Reid: I like that a lot. We’ll link to the post and to the website that you mentioned as well. Pamela Wilson: Great. Kelton Reid: Do you believe in writer’s block? Pamela Wilson: I don’t. I don’t, because for me, the physical act of actually typing words on your keyboard is all you really have to do. I read this book a while back — and I’m sure someone else has mentioned this at this point in your series — there’s a book called the Accidental Genius by Mark Levy. It’s really about the act of writing and being completely unattached to the end product that you get. That made a huge difference for me when I was getting into the rhythm of writing on a consistent basis. It just made me realize that whatever I wrote didn’t have to be great. It’s more about the practice of writing that counts. A site like 750words.com is a huge help as well. They send you these email prompts. The email prompts basically say, “Look, you don’t have to write a masterpiece. Just write. That’s all that matters.” What I find is, when I write consistently like that, it’s almost like you nurture that connection between your brain and your fingertips. You leave that channel open, and you make a strong connection. It’s just easier to tap into your thoughts and easier to write overall. Writer’s block is just not a problem for me. I have that connection reinforced because of my daily habits and my leg crossing and all that crazy stuff. It just seems to work pretty well. Kelton Reid: Nice. We’ll link to Accidental Genius as well. I’m blanking on who else mentioned it, but it has been brought up before. Now I’m going to find it myself. Let’s talk about workflow a little bit. What hardware or typewriter model are you using? I know you’re not using a typewriter because you can’t balance that on your knees while you’re doing yoga. Pamela Wilson: Yes, writer’s yoga. It’s a little tougher with a typewriter. I had a 15-inch Mac Book Pro, and I just recently switched to a 13-inch because of the travel. It’s a little bit lighter. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: I know a lot of people at Copyblogger use the Mac Book Airs, but I work enough with images and audio and video that I really needed a little bit more power. I do have a Mac Book Pro just for the processing power. Even just moving from a 15 inch to a 13 inch was a huge relief as far as just walking through airports with the laptop on your shoulder because it’s so much lighter. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Do you have some favorite software that you use most for writing and your general workflow? Pamela Wilson: I do. One of the things I discovered a few years ago was how easy mind mapping software made my writing. What I will typically do is — and not for every post, but a lot of them — if I have some ideas, kind of disparate, random concepts for a post, I’ll open up a mind map and start dropping those onto the mind map. Any connection I make to any of the original ideas, I just build a branch and add that connection. My thoughts don’t tend to be organized when they come in. They just come in, and they’re not in any logical order. They’re not presented to me on a silver platter all organized. They come in randomly. So what I’ve found is, if I can put them on to a mind map, that gives me a place to register everything and then move it around and reorder it until it starts making sense. Typically, what I do is take what’s in the mind map, and then I just paste it into a text document and start fleshing out each section. Most of the posts I write start like that. Kelton Reid: Let’s get into maybe some best practices for staying organized. Do you have any tips, tricks, or hacks for us? Pamela’s Hack: Why Less Is More Pamela Wilson: The biggest hack that I have is something that I discovered a few years ago. I try not to give myself such a long to-do list to do every day. It sounds kind of counter-intuitive that you would actually get more done when your to-do list is shorter. What I’ve found is, when I had a to-do list that has seven or eight or 10 things on it, I didn’t tend to get to everything. I tended to only get to a few things. I always way underestimated how long things would take to do. You write your to-do list, and you think you’re superhuman. Somehow time is going to warp for you. You’re going to be able to achieve all this stuff. You forget about all the interruptions that you know you’re going to have, so you write this super ambitious to-do list. Then, at the end of the day, when you only have a few things checked off, what ends up happening is you feel terribly guilty. I do anyway. I look at all the things I didn’t get to, and I feel terrible at the end of the day. What I ended up doing a few years ago is I switched that around. I try to just have three projects to focus on every day. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: Now that doesn’t count things like, of course, I have to deal with email. You and I both end up having to deal with people contacting you on HipChat, for example. At Copyblogger, we use Hipchat to communicate. There are all those things that take time out of your day. But what I’ve found is, counting all those things, I can usually get three other projects done. I try to make a to-do list that’s very realistic and has those three things on it. What ends up happening is, every once in a while, I get to three o’clock and I’m done with all three things. It’s a completely different feeling. You have this list of eight things and you only got three done, so then you felt guilty about the five that you didn’t get to. But when you have a list of only three things and you get them all done, it’s like, “Wow, what am I going to do with this extra time? Maybe I can do something from tomorrow’s list.” You know? Kelton Reid: Totally. Pamela Wilson: That has been a huge attitude shift toward my to-do list. I’ve tried to basically take on less and be very realistic. Kelton Reid: Do you have any best practices for beating procrastination? Pamela Wilson: Deadlines. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: Just deadlines, really. Everything I did when I was working as a designer was deadline oriented. I was doing a lot of print design work, and the designer is only one person in a long process. The client gives you the information. Typically, the client needs to get approvals on whatever you submit. Then it has to be finalized and sent to a printer. A printer actually prints the job. The job has to be delivered. Everything in that process has a deadline, and I got very used to having to hit deadlines. If my business was going to make it, I had to hit my deadlines. That was just a thing I had to do. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: In order to succeed in business, I had to learn to do that and structure my time so that I would be able to hit the deadlines as promised. Then, the other thing is just not wanting to disappoint people. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: You have coworkers or customers, or you have followers. I still write for Big Brand System, and there’s a post that goes up every other Wednesday at 6 am Eastern. Come hell or high water, that post has to go up. I’m sure nobody is sitting there with a stopwatch watching it, but I feel like I don’t want to disappoint anyone. That self-imposed deadline seems to work really well for me. Kelton Reid: Nice. How does Pamela Wilson unplug at the end of a hard day? Pamela Wilson: I work at home, which is always a struggle. You have this siren song of your laptop that’s glowing over there in the corner, and at the end of a long day, a lot of times you end up being drawn back to it. What I do to get away from that is I try to just change location — even if it’s just in my house. I moved to Nashville about a year ago, and we have a house that has a basement. There is actually a space down in the basement that used to be a kids playroom, but now it’s Pamela’s playroom. I have all my art supplies down there. That’s actually a place that I enjoy going, cranking the music, and making artwork and doing stuff with my hands. That’s a huge help — to just go to a different location and do something different than what I’ve done all day long. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: I feel the same way about cooking at the end of the day, honestly. After spending all day in front of a screen tapping on a keyboard or working with a stylus pen, it’s great to go into the kitchen, get your hands dirty, and chop things. I enjoy that as well. We have woods behind our house. There’s a little path through the woods, so I like walking through the woods and reading, all the usual stuff. Then I do watch TV. There’s good TV on nowadays. I do watch it occasionally, but it’s usually my last choice of things to do. Kelton Reid: Sure. Pamela Wilson: It usually puts me right to sleep, so it might take me three days to watch a show that’s an hour long. I watch 20 minutes, and then I’m like zonked. I’m not a very devoted TV watcher unfortunately. Kelton Reid: That’s funny because I have that same malady. Pamela Wilson: I think it’s great to put you to sleep. You just turn it on really low, and it’s kind of glowing over there in the corner. It works every time for me. I think my husband gets frustrated because he’s like, “Oh man, this is going to take forever to get this show watched.” He’s very patient about it. Kelton Reid: Significant others do love when you fall asleep during an important scene, without fail. Pamela Wilson: I know. Every once in a while, I’ll say to him, “Just keep watching. It’s okay. Just tell me what happens tomorrow. I’m really sleepy.” It’s like you give them permission to keep going. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. Let’s talk about creativity since that seems to be such a big part of your life and work. How do you define creativity? Why Creativity Happens Through Action Pamela Wilson: I love this question. I think each person really is going to have their own creative answer. It’s going to be a little bit different. This is very much a designer’s way of seeing creativity. It’s very much about combining things that aren’t normally combined. Combining things in a surprising way or looking at things from a slightly different angle., I’m kind of touching on this theme over and over, but I really believe that creativity happens through action. We have this image of this creative person who’s sitting still under a tree, and this bolt of lightning hits them when they’re sitting there. I don’t think that actually happens. I don’t think we just sit there and suddenly we feel creative. I think creativity happens when we are in motion doing something, like typing on your keyboard, creating some kind of artwork, doing something with your hands, or walking through the woods. I just feel like action is what makes creativity happen. Kelton Reid: Do you have a creative muse? Pamela Wilson: I don’t really have one creative muse I would have to say. I’ve kind of built my whole career out of the ability to tap into creativity all day long. It’s not something that I have to feel inspired about. It’s just a part of what I do. I don’t know if that’s a good answer, but that’s kind of how it works for me for some reason. Kelton Reid: Sure. When do you feel the most creative, personally? Pamela Wilson: That’s the thing, Kelton. I don’t see it that way. I honestly feel like I can be creative all day long. It’s a little bit of an energy thing. Last night, for example, it was getting toward the end of the day. I was finishing up some slides for a webinar that I had to do, and it was going slowly. I walked away, cooked something, had a glass of wine. I relaxed and got away from it. Then I came back to it this morning, and it came right out. It just came together very quickly. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: It’s a little bit of you run out of energy, but as far as actually tapping into the creativity, I feel like it’s always there. The whole muse idea, I just don’t see it that way. It doesn’t work that way for me for some reason. Kelton Reid: Let me ask you, what makes a writer great? The Hallmarks of Great Online Writing Pamela Wilson: This is such a great question. It’s something that I’m thinking about all the time now that I’m helping to run the Copyblogger blog. What we are trying to do at Copyblogger is to become the premier resource for content marketing professionals. We want our posts and everything we put together — so our infographics, our ebooks, everything we put together — we want it to be the most clear and helpful resource out there for content marketers. It’s a big goal. When we’re looking at posts, whether they’re our own posts or posts that we bring in from other writers who we’re working with, I’m always looking for clarity. That’s the big thing. I’m not impressed with people who use a lot of big words or people who string together these very complex sentences. In the end, everyone is busy. If your writing is easy to follow, then it’s better. I always think people need to just get to the point. Spit it out. Don’t stumble. Say it as clearly as you can. Try to make a connection with the reader. That’s what’s going to make you a great writer. Don’t try to impress people with complex sentences and long, obscure words. Instead of impressing them, you’ll just end up losing them. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Do you have a few favorite authors at the moment? Pamela Wilson: Well, Mark Levy’s Accidental Genius. It really changed my approach to writing, so he’s a definite favorite. It’s kind of boring because I read a lot of nonfiction. I’m not reading a lot of fiction lately. I’m not sure why. It’s been a long time since I’ve read fiction. I just tend to read nonfiction. There are so many different things I want to learn. One of the things that I’m reading a lot of lately is books on management. In this position at Copyblogger, it’s really a management position. Even though I had my own business before and I had freelance employees, it wasn’t really a management situation. It was my business, and I was the CEO of the business, passing along information to them. It wasn’t the same situation. Now, I feel like I’m in more of a management position, and of course, I want to rock at it. I want to be really, really good. I’m reading a book right now by a Navy captain named L. David Marquette, and he wrote a book called Turn This Ship Around! with an exclamation point. It’s about how he applied these management techniques within the context of the Navy, which is very much a top-down management structure. His technique is basically putting the power back at the bottom of the structure and sending it upwards. It’s a different approach to management. I love it because it kind of empowers the people who know best what your organization should be doing. Then I’m also reading this book called Reinventing Organizations. That is by Frederic Laloux. I don’t know if that’s how you pronounce his name, but it looks like that’s how you pronounce his name. I have this really bad habit of reading two books at once. In the case of these two, they’re both about management. They’re kind of complementary, so I’m not managing to confuse myself, but I have a bad habit of picking up several at once and starting them. Those are the two that are on my night table right now. Kelton Reid: Cool. Yeah, I’m the same way. I will pick up multiple volumes and really just rotate through and have no idea where I am at any one given time in any tome. Do you have a best-loved quote? Pamela Wilson: This is actually a tough question to answer because I collect quotes. I’ve been collecting quotes for years. There’s something about a really well-formed quote that I just love. It’s that clarity thing. It says so much in so few words. Actually, my last set of business cards from my design business, I got them custom printed with 16 different quotes. Kelton Reid: Oh cool. Pamela Wilson: I used to tell my clients, “Oh it’s like a playing card. Let’s see which one you got.” It could be one of 16 quotes. I couldn’t choose between the 16, so I got 16. One of my favorites — and this is like the story of my life because I’ve had so many new beginnings in my life — there’s a quote that just struck me. It says, “The world is round, and the place which may seem like the end may also be only the beginning.” It’s by George Baker. Kelton Reid: That’s a good one. Pamela Wilson: I love that one. Kelton Reid: Let’s do a couple fun ones. Do you have a favorite literary character? Pamela Wilson: Well, as I told you, I read a lot of nonfiction, so there aren’t a lot of characters in that. I think to answer this one I have to go way back in time. One of the first characters that I really related to and I connected to was a character in a book by Beverly Cleary. I think I read it in third grade, Ramona the Pest. I loved that book because she was always getting into trouble. She always managed to get herself out of it, but she was always getting herself into trouble. She had all sorts of spats with her family and her friends. She just seemed very real. I loved that character. It goes way back in my life, but that was the first one that I felt like I really connected to. Kelton Reid: If you could choose one author, living or dead, for an all-expense paid dinner to your favorite restaurant, who would you choose, and where would you go? Why Picasso Is an Inspiring Model for Writers to Follow Pamela Wilson: I have to tell you, Kelton, this is the question I have most been looking forward to answering. I heard your interview with Austin Kleon, and Austin said something like he’d never want to take Picasso to dinner. The first thing I thought when I heard that was, “That is totally who I want to take to dinner.” Kelton Reid: Nice. Pamela Wilson: Picasso wrote books. We know him for his artwork, but he wrote books. He qualifies as an author that you could take to dinner, right? Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: I would totally take him to dinner because, as a creative person, he is someone I admire so much. I actually wrote a post for Copyblogger years ago about Picasso and about his work ethic. In the process of putting this post together, I did some research. I saw that, in his lifetime, he produced 50,000 unique pieces of art. If you look at his career, if you kind of divide it up over his lifetime, that’s 632 pieces for every year that he was working as an artist. That’s more than a couple of pieces most days, right? Kelton Reid: Amazing. Pamela Wilson: That so inspires me. When you think about the great artists of the world, Picasso is always on that list. If you’ve seen his work in museums, it’s very impressive. But what you’re seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of pieces that we will probably never see. What I realized when I saw those numbers and when I saw his artwork is that it goes back to this idea that creativity is really about taking action. It’s not about the end product. It’s about actually doing the thing. I’ve always been interested in his work and in his life, I tend to kind of gravitate to his pieces if I’m in a museum. I’ve seen a lot of Picasso pieces, and most of them are amazing. When you see them in person, they’re bigger than you expect many times. The colors are more vibrant. You can almost see his movements in the brush strokes. It’s really impressive to see it in person, but the other thing that I notice is it’s not all good. Kelton Reid: Right. Pamela Wilson: Not everything he did was a masterpiece. There’s something that’s weirdly comforting in that for me. You just realize, “Wow, if I produce enough, if I just churn out enough creative work, some of it is going to be amazing.” If you think about it, 50,000 pieces, even if only 1 percent is amazing, that’s still 500 pieces of artwork that you’ve created that are masterpieces, right? Kelton Reid: Right. Pamela Wilson: Nobody’s going to talk about the others, but it’s the act of creating that much work that helps you to create that 1 percent that really, really sticks out. Kelton Reid: To circle back, where would you take Picasso to dinner? Pamela Wilson: Well, I speak Spanish, so this is something that not everyone knows about me. I was an exchange student in between high school and college. I lived in Columbia, South America, and I learned to speak Spanish fluently. I would definitely take him out to dinner, probably in Barcelona. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pamela Wilson: We could go out for paella. We’d make a reservation for 10:30 because you don’t start eating until really late. It would be somewhere where he felt like he was comfortable and in his own territory, and we would speak in Spanish. It would be awesome. Kelton Reid: That’s cool. Do you have a writer’s fetish? Pamela Wilson: Would an iPhone count? Kelton Reid: Sure. Pamela Wilson: Okay. It’s the only thing I could name it. So I got a new phone last year and I got one of those big ones, one of those 6 Pluses. It’s the most expensive small piece of technology I’ve ever had in my life. Kelton Reid: Sure. Pamela Wilson: Now that I have it, it’s like my favorite way to read books. Because either I can read them on Kindle or on iBooks, and it’s big enough that it feels like you’re reading a small paperback. I used to travel around with my tablet, and I don’t take it anymore because I just use my phone. Then I have Audible, so I listen to books on audio as well. I would say that’s probably it. I don’t know if that counts as a fetish item, but I think that’s the closest I can come. Kelton Reid: Well, you’ve dropped a lot of great knowledge for writers already in this session. Can you offer any additional advice to fellow writers on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? Pamela Wilson: Stop thinking about it, and just start doing it. Thinking about it is probably your worst enemy. What you really need to do is put your fingers on your keyboard and move your fingers. If you do that, if you do what I was saying earlier — you kind of assume the writing position — it won’t take long for your brain to kick in and start flowing down into your fingertips and giving you ideas about what to write about — but you have to assume the position first. You have to be in position to receive those ideas. Doing that on a regular basis will help you to keep that connection so that you can keep the ideas flowing. Kelton Reid: For sure. So where can fellow scribes connect with you out there or online? Pamela Wilson: Well, I still want to write that book, so at some point, I will write a book. Maybe I’ll bug you so you have me back on here. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Pamela Wilson: But for now, the best place to find me is on the Copyblogger blog. That’s where I’m writing more than any place else these days. They could also find me on Big Brand System. I’m pretty active on Instagram and Twitter, so I’ll give you both of those accounts. That’s a good place to connect as well. Kelton Reid: Great. Pamela Wilson: I would love to connect with people who’ve heard this and keep talking about creativity. It’s one of my favorite topics. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Pamela, thank you so much for stopping by The Writer Files and sharing some stories with us. It’s been really, really a pleasure. Pamela Wilson: Thank you, Kelton. I appreciate it. Kelton Reid: Cheers. Thank you for tuning in to The Writer Files. Now go write your 750 words. I’m about to do mine. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all the show notes, or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM. You can always chat with me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

Bestselling author and prolific lit interviewer Brad Listi was named One of LA s most fascinating people of 2015 by the LA Weekly. He stopped by to chat with me about podcasting and the secrets of successful writers. Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! On his “in depth and inappropriate” podcast, Otherppl with Brad Listi, he has interviewed over 350 leading contemporary authors — including George Saunders, Cheryl Strayed, Tao Lin, Jonathan Lethem, Austin Kleon, and Susan Orlean — and his takeaways for writers are often priceless and pointed. In addition to his street-cred as a bestselling novelist, Brad is a screenwriter, and the founder and publisher of The Nervous Breakdown, an online culture magazine and literary community. In this file Brad Listi and I discuss: Why Interviews with Beginners Can Be More Interesting Than Interviews with Superstars The Magic of Deadlines, Caffeine, and Word Counts Why First Drafts are Like Ironing a Shirt The Importance of Meditation for ‘Unplugging’ How Great Writers Capture a Moment That Others Can’t 3 Key Takeaways from over 350 Interviews with Writers Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes The Otherppl Podcast hosted by Brad Listi The Otherppl App Books by Brad Listi The Nervous Breakdown — an online culture magazine and literary community Otherppl on Twitter Brad Listi on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Novelist and Prolific Podcaster Brad Listi Writes Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. Bestselling author and prolific lit interviewer Brad Listi has been named as one of LA’s most fascinating people of 2015 by the LA Weekly. He stopped by to chat with me about podcasting and the secrets of successful writers. On his in-depth and inappropriate podcast, Otherppl with Brad Listi, he’s interviewed over 350 leading contemporary authors, including George Saunders, Cheryl Strayed, Tao Lin, Jonathan Lethem, Austin Kleon, and Susan Orlean, and his takeaways for writers are often priceless and pointed. In addition to his street-cred as a bestselling novelist, Brad is a screenwriter and the founder and publisher of The Nervous Breakdown, an online culture magazine and literary community. In this file, Brad Listi and I discuss why interviews with beginners can be more interesting than interviews with superstars, the magic of deadlines, caffeine and word counts, why first drafts are like ironing a shirt, the importance of meditation for unplugging, and three key takeaways from over 350 interviews with writers. If you enjoy The Writer Files podcast, please do me a favor. Leave a rating or a review in iTunes to help other writers find us. Thanks for tuning in. Mr. Listi, thank you so much for coming onto The Writer Files. Brad Listi: It’s my pleasure, man. Thanks for having me. Kelton Reid: I am a huge fan of not only your writing, but also your podcast, which just blows me away with the breadth and depth and number of writers that you’ve interviewed over there is fantastic. Brad Listi: Just leveraging my mental illness into productivity. Kelton Reid: For listeners who aren’t familiar with your podcast and what you do, what is your area of expertise as both a writer and a podcaster? Brad Listi: None. But I’m curious. I’m curious, professionally curious, and then also professionally confused. Those two things make for, hopefully, a decent podcaster, or somebody who talks to people regularly and interviews them, or not really interviews, but has conversations. I don’t know how unusual it is to be able to do that, but I can do it. I can sit there and talk to people and be totally fascinated, genuinely fascinated. It started as kind of a lark, which is how most of the things in my life tend to go, in my professional life, and it just snowballed. I’ve had so much fun doing it that I keep doing it. Then here we are four years later. Kelton Reid: The podcast is Otherppl on iTunes and Stitcher. I definitely would encourage writers to seek it out if they don’t know it already. You’re an intrepid interviewer, but you just get into the mind of the writer. You let them rip. You talk about process. You’ve interviewed some amazing contemporary authors, including George Saunders, Tao Lin, Austin Kleon, who I love, who was just on this show as well — just an amazing, amazing array of different types of writers, which I think is very cool. Why Interviews with Beginners Can Be More Interesting Than Interviews with Superstars Brad Listi: Yeah. That’s always been part of the idea for the show, is that I would talk to writers across a wide range, meaning I talk to a guy like George Saunders, or I’ll talk to Cheryl Strayed, or I’ll talk to Susan Orlean, or I’ll talk to Edwidge Danticat, Tom Perrotta, those really recognizable, at least within the realm of the literary world, names. Then I’m also talking to people who are debut authors on indie presses. Or I’m talking to poets, and nobody knows who any poets are practically. I’m not interested in only talking to people who have somehow managed to get some kind of media traction or name recognition. I’m interested in talking to writers who are at the beginning of the process, too. I think that’s just as interesting. Sometimes it’s more interesting. I’m mostly curious about people generally, and I happen to interview writers. I like writers as people. I have a great deal of sympathy for people who do this, who try to do this work, and feel driven to do it. Whatever that is, whatever formula that is inside of a human being, I tend to gravitate towards, and I like. It’s just fun to talk to them. Kelton Reid: For listeners who don’t know of your writing as well, you’re also a bestselling author. Brad Listi: Bestselling is generous, but I’ll take it. Kelton Reid: I loved your novel. Attention Deficit Disorder spoke to me at a time in my life, actually, when I just moved away from Los Angeles. I found the connection that you had to Colorado very interesting. But it’s kind of what’s-it-all mean novel. It really connected with me. I love the format. I love the writing itself. Anyway, where can we find more of your writing? I know that you have an online community. You’re constantly getting your hands into other projects. What are you working on presently? Brad Listi: I don’t mean to be cryptic. I’ve got a book going that’s been going forever. I published an experimental work of nonfiction with a writer named Justin Benton a couple of years ago called Board. It’s like a literary collage, ripped from comment boards on The Nervous Breakdown. I was just interested, and Justin was interested, in comment board culture and what people say on the Internet. We made this like weird book of literary collage out of it and called it Board, so that’s out there. Then I’ve been working on a book for a long time. I’m also working on film and TV stuff, which I can’t fully talk about. I’m trying to get something going there. It might go. It might not go. It’s that kind of thing. That’s been occupying a lot of my time. Then doing the podcast, running The Nervous Breakdown in all of its various iterations. It’s a full schedule, and being a parent. The time goes away quickly. Kelton Reid: The Nervous Breakdown is a great stop also for writers to discover new writing. I’ll point to that in the show notes as well. Do you want to talk about your productivity a little bit as a writer? The Magic of Deadlines, Caffeine, and Word Counts Brad Listi: Yeah. It’s in fits and starts. I’m good with a deadline, and if I have a project and I know that has like a real shape to it time-wise, I’m able to lock in. Otherwise, when I have the free time to work on a book, the problem with me is that I feel like I need a good chunk of time to get my head into the right space to inhabit the world of the book and to really feel like I have a rhythm. My life has not been able to accommodate that consistently. I have it in pockets. I’ll go to work on it, and then I’ll get pulled into another project that has a deadline attached to it and probably money. And I’ll have to go there. That’s the way that it’s been going. I have been struggling mightily to write the second book. I wrote an entire novel called City of Champions, which I trashed. It was 130,000 words. Kelton Reid: Wow. Brad Listi: Yeah. Then I wrote an entire another novel draft, trashed it. It’s been like that for me. It has not been easy. This is not something that comes easily to me at all. It’s been very frustrating. Then you compound that with trying to make a living and support a family, and it’s challenging. It’s still a work in progress in terms of trying to figure out how to make it all happen. But the good news is that there could be potentially a glimmer of light. It’s the best I can tell you. Kelton Reid: Well that’s good to hear. When you are working on any kind of project that requires you to sit in one place, do you have any pregame rituals or practices that help you get into that mode? Brad Listi: Yeah, caffeine. Just caffeine. It’s caffeine. I used to exercise and then work. Now, lately, I have been working and then exercising. In a perfect world, I’d get up really early and work. Actually, I don’t know. In a perfect world, I’d get up really early and go for a hike someplace beautiful, a couple of hours, then come down and work. Be unimpeded. But usually morning, drink some caffeine, get in front of the keyboard. I had a pocket of time earlier this spring where I was really working for about six weeks. That’s the way I was doing it. I usually operate on a word count just to give myself a no BS metric. I have to see how many words I’m getting in order to actually chart my progress. I write it down so that it’s externalized. It’s not just something that I keep in my head. I actually have it on paper day by day, so I can see what I’m doing. Because it can get really easy to sort of spin your wheels. That’s going to happen inevitably. At some point in the writing process, you’re going to have to backtrack and cut pages, or you’re going to get stuck in a certain section and just grind away and not get anywhere for a while. If I don’t write it down, I can wind up grinding away for a long time. It be like, “I feel like I’m working,” but the book has not advanced. The narrative has not advanced in six weeks or whatever. It’s just helpful for me to do it that way. It keeps me accountable. Kelton Reid: Do you prefer silence, or do you like to listen to music while you’re typing, writing? Brad Listi: Like ambient music. I’ve written parts of books at least where music has helped me in terms of getting an emotional tone, getting myself into the right emotional, tonal headspace to write whatever section it is or whatever project I’m working on. I don’t like to write with music that has lyrics and people are singing in my head. It’s too many voices, and I’ll start singing along. It’s just distracting. If I could ever find silence — I live in Los Angeles, there’s no such thing. I have small children, a small child with another one on the way, so silence is hard to come by. That would be pretty awesome if I could find that, but not any time soon. Kelton Reid: When you are in that pocket of productivity, do you find yourself needing to sit down every day? Brad Listi: Yeah. I’m very rhythmic. That’s what I mean by ‘rhythm.’ What’s frustrating is that if I could set up a schedule where I was able to do it every day at the same time. The other thing, too, some of these people, I was talking to Aimee Bender on my show. She has young twins and was talking about how she’s writing in seven-minute pockets of time, whatever’s available to her, which is the resourceful, admirable, intelligent way to go about it. For me, I need a few hours. I need a couple of hours just to mess around before I can even get started. I don’t know why. That’s the way it’s always been for me. I have to warm up. I have to sit there and re-read it. It takes me a while to get back into it. It’s always been that way. Maybe I’m doing something wrong. Four hours is a minimal pocket of time in order for me to get 500 to 1000 words, unless I’m really caffeinated. Kelton Reid: Do you edit while you work, like as you go? Why First Drafts Are Like Ironing a Shirt Brad Listi: Yeah. I try to write the best possible first draft that I can. I’m not somebody who just sits there and let’s it rip. I’m always trying to write the best I can, and at the same time, I’m trying to make sure that I don’t get too nitpicky and stifle myself or let the inner critic or whatever overtake the process. I find that if you’re too permissive, then it can let you off the hook. You let yourself off the hook, and you get into lazy writing, which isn’t helpful. Then you have this huge mess to clean up. I liken it to ironing a shirt. When you’re working on a first draft, it’s like when you iron a shirt and you’re always sliding the shirt over to go back to where you just were. I don’t know if that’s the right visual. But I’ll write, and then I’ll reread what I’ve written, usually all the way from the beginning. This is another reason why it takes me forever. I’ll start, I could be on page 150 of a book, and every morning, I get up and I start on page one and I reread — and I’m just ironing. Then I’m getting back in, and then I’m trying to advance it 500 or 1000 words or whatever. That doesn’t mean that I’m not skimming. There’s certain sections where you know you have it or you need to come back to it later and focus time. That’s how I do it. Kelton Reid: You’ve interviewed so many authors, and I’m sure that you’ve asked this same question of them. Do you believe in writer’s block? Do you get writer’s block or do you have a superstition about it? Brad Listi: No. I think you just do the work, and you just write something. I can understand being blocked with respect to a particular project, or you hit some sort of impasse. There is such a thing as getting to a point where you realize a book is not going to work, or you’re just out of juice for the time being. I don’t get the whole thing where I’m too scared to say anything. You can’t let yourself have that. You just get to work. If that’s the way it is, and it’s consistent and it’s prolonged, then I think you need to consider finding other ways to occupy yourself. Kelton Reid: If I could pick your brain a little bit about your workflow over there. What kind of hardware or typewriter are you presently clacking away on over there? Brad Listi: Just a MacBook Pro, either Microsoft Word or Scribner. Nothing out of the ordinary. Kelton Reid: Do you have any methods for staying organized? Do you use outlines, et cetera? Brad Listi: No, I don’t outline. I work intuitively. The outlines that I have, it would be too generous to call them outlines. I’ll have a document where I’m keeping notes and scraps and what not, but it’s not like a great system or some sort of really ingenious method. Again, I feel like all these things could be improved upon. You know? Kelton Reid: Yeah. Brad Listi: There’s lots of room for improvement. Kelton Reid: Definitely. Well, I think all of us feel that way, but talking about it helps. Brad Listi: Yeah, that’s right. I mean I’ve been doing it for the past four years. Kelton Reid: The talking cure, so to speak. I think Austin Kleon is the one who, first at least, pointed to productive procrastination in his stuff. It sounds like what you’re doing when you do get into that mode is that you’re doing a productive procrastination prior to getting into it. Do you have any other methods for beating procrastination or is that something you wane into? Brad Listi: Just deadlines, self-loathing. Eventually you’re just like, “What the heck am I doing? I got to get to work.” I’ll be reading something that inspires me, or I’ll reread whatever I’ve been writing to get back into the voice and to figure out what’s going to happen next. Again, because I’m not working through an outline. It almost feels like I got to get this momentum. The rereading, you inhabit not only the voice of the book but also the world of the book, and then you get caught up in the narrative momentum of the book if you’re really concentrated. Then when you get into that leaping off point, if you’ve got the right momentum, then you can usually figure it out, or you can make some progress. I think that’s part of it. Kelton Reid: Nice. Brad Listi: Otherwise, in terms of prep or constructive procrastination or whatever, again, sometimes it could be more constructive. Sometimes I’m just on Facebook or whatever. Kelton Reid: How do you unplug at the end of a session? The Importance of Meditation for ‘Unplugging’ Brad Listi: Meditation. I mediate twice a day on a good day. Always once lately, but usually twice. The best thing I can do is sit for 20 minutes to 40 minutes and just do that — focus on breathing and try not to think so much. It really does reset me. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take your free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. If we could dive into creativity a little bit. Can you define creativity in your own words? How Brad Defines Creativity Brad Listi: Let me see here. Making stuff. God, man, that’s a tough one. You’re taking disparate elements and combining them to make something that didn’t previously exist. I’m interested in the composite nature of creativity. Any work of art, I’m always fascinated when the sourcing of it is articulated, or you can figure it out by reading, like in the context of literature, like literary biography. That’s another reason I think that I like doing the podcast. I like getting into some of that, where you’re talking to somebody and figuring out what were these disparate elements that they pulled together to write this? What were the things that were bothering them? Who were the authors that they were turning to or leaning on when they were putting their initial ideas for their book together, when it was still in the realm of abstraction? I think that’s what it is to me. I’m very much a fan of collage art. I’m very much a fan of odd combinations. I think my novel is a testament to that. I like the idea of digression. I like the idea of nonfiction infused with fiction. Mini biography, all that kind of stuff really appeals to me. Kelton Reid: Those are some of the most appealing parts of your novel for sure, that infused fiction nonfiction. I love the quotes, the definitions, how it jumps. Brad Listi: I think I could do without the definitions, or at least just a couple. I think I overdid it on those. But one thing I really like, not about my own book but that would maybe further clarify what I’m trying to say, is that I really love books that are explicit reactions to reading. All books are in some way a reaction to what the author is reading. I really love authors that you can tell, either explicitly or implicitly or in the endnotes or whatever, that they’re really responding to a book or a set of books, or they have like a central question that they’re trying to get the answer to and have done the research around it, and that kind of thing. There’s something about the transparency of that, that appeals to me and that I find heroic. Kelton Reid: Do you have a creative muse at the moment? Brad Listi: I’m sure I do. I love Louis CK like everybody else. I think it’s because of the way in which he conveys how humiliating life is. I agree with that. It’s like it’s just humiliating to be alive, painful. It’s just such an awkward mess. He finds the funny in that. That sensibility really appeals to me. I mean I’m going to sound corny, but my daughter — just because when you have a four year old you have a young child, right? Kelton Reid: I do. Brad Listi: Being around kids, whether they’re your own or they’re other people’s, there’s something wonderful about how free they are in terms of how they create. Just having her sit there and scribble on a piece of paper and draw something. There’s no self-consciousness. There’s no self-editing. There’s no, “This is bad,” or “This is good.” It’s all free. That is fun to be around and a good reminder. Kelton Reid: That’s fun. Yeah, they have no filter whatsoever. It’s funny because definitely some of your monologue work on your show reminds me of Louis CK. Brad Listi: Oh really? Kelton Reid: Yeah. Pointing out the absurdity of everyday stuff, which is great. Brad Listi: I appreciate it. I think that’s generous. I watch his show. I listen. I’ve taken his standup, and I listen to a lot of Howard Stern. I listen to a lot of Maron. I listen to a lot of Terry Gross, Charlie Rose. I love interview shows in addition to doing one. I have all these people who I’ve been listening to for years and who I think were inspirational when I went to start my own little podcast. I feel like, inevitably, some of the rhythms of their delivery and some of the things that they are fixated upon, they’re going to work their way into my show somehow. Kelton Reid: II have one Louis CK standup seared into my brain, and it’s the Chewed Up special that he did. I’ll jump to what makes a writer great. How Great Writers Capture a Moment That Others Can’t Brad Listi: I think the ability to tap into and articulate well what everybody else is thinking but doesn’t have the words to say. There are some writers who are preternaturally good at that. I think a really terrific intellect is a big part of it as well. I always think of Don DeLillo whenever I think of somebody who’s just got a Teflon brain. I know David Foster Wallace is often thought of in that context, but DeLillo, it’s frightening to me. His brain is just so sharp. There’s a lot of writers like that. It’s not just contemporary. It’s not just men, obviously. It runs the gamut. There are a lot of great writers, and I think they’re all just terrifically intelligent. But in addition to having brain smarts, I think having a real sense of the human heart and having a real sense of humor. To be contradictory, I don’t know if DeLillo is a super funny writer. I know nothing about him in person. But recollecting his work, I don’t think of it as like being super funny, but I love that alchemy. I think a great writer can write tragedy and comedy in the same sentence, because that kind of sentence and that kind of work holds a mirror up to the world. There’s the old adage that the world is tragic, terrible and tragic and dark and absurd and hilarious, and often at the same time. I think that’s totally true, and really great art should reflect that. Then, again, there are great books that are like super dramatic and not funny at all. So it’s not like it’s got to be just my way, but that’s what I look for. If I can find a writer who does that. Whenever anybody asks me that question “What’s your favorite book?” — which is an impossible question to answer, I always say Journey to the End of the Night and Death or the Installment Plan, the two books by Louis Ferdinand Celine. I almost said Louis Ferdinand CK. But those two books, when I read them in my early 20s, blew me away. In the aftermath, reading up on Celine and trying to figure out who he was as a guy, you find yourself conflicted because he was a Nazi sympathizer in his later years. It got a little sketchy there. But he was a soldier in World War One. He suffered head trauma. He had a hard life in a lot of respects and regardless of how he conducted himself in his personal life in his later years or what his political beliefs might have been, those two books have a ton of humanity in them, and a ton of really deep intellect, a lot of heart, and a lot of really dark humor. I don’t know if it’s the translation. I guess the translation must be a big part of it, but those books always struck me in terms of how well they’ve aged. You read those books or I read those books at the turn of a century — they were published in like 1930s — and they didn’t seem dated at all to me, other than maybe some of the context in terms of what was happening in the books, the war or whatever. There’s just something really immediate about them and just wildly smart and funny and dark. The sense that I find myself having when I put down a book that I really admire is that it says everything. There’s just nothing left, and I got it. Another book that I had that feeling about was A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius. Again, at the time that I read it, again, I was probably 21 years old or whatever. I was at the Boulder Bookstore, and for whatever reason, I picked that book up in hardcover, and I bought it. I read it, and I was like, “Oh man, that’s it.” It just summed up a moment. When you write something like that, that captures a moment, and I guess from a certain perspective, it really resonates. You obviously can’t say everything, but if you can capture a little sliver of it in a really full way, it has that feeling of saying everything. I don’t know if I articulated that well, but you know what I mean — hopefully. Kelton Reid: I think you articulated quite well. A couple of fun ones, and you may have already answered this, but who is your favorite literally character? Brad Listi: Hang on. Kelton Reid: I’m going to keep the silence in. Brad Listi: Yeah. I want the audience to feel the weight of the silence. Kelton Reid: That’s a terrible question, I know. Brad Listi: No. There’s the Kilgore Trout, but I don’t really feel like I grabbed on, and Bardamu in Journey to the End of the Night is not exactly somebody you lionize. You know what I’m saying? A lot of the literary characters in the books that I’ve liked best are not exactly heroic. I like the anti-hero. I always thought that Bukowski narrator was funny. There’s a guy who could write funny, like genuinely laugh-out-loud funny, at least for me, in his best stuff. God, you know who else I really liked? I liked the narrator in the Ben Learner novel Leaving the Atocha Station. To go back to the whole thing about capturing a moment, there’s something about that book that feels it’s getting it. It’s getting its time perfectly right, or at least it did for me, a certain kind of obsessive self-consciousness coupled with the moment in terms of geopolitics and technology and how we live now. I don’t know, but that narrator actually made me laugh. I always go to writing that feels really deeply smart but also funny, and that’s rare. Kelton Reid: Yeah, absolutely. Writing that doesn’t take itself too seriously, even though it might be. Brad Listi: Well, I don’t want just a silly book. If it’s just a bunch of like jokes, then that’s easy, but if it’s somebody who’s really got something to say and the laughs come unexpectedly. If I laugh out loud while reading a book, I’m sold. It doesn’t happen very often. Kelton Reid: If you could choose one author living or dead for an all-expense paid dinner to your favorite restaurants, who would you choose, and where would you go? Brad Listi: Let’s do some more silence here. Oh, living or dead. A few years ago, I probably would’ve said Gore Vidal in his prime just because I always thought he was so funny and such a great talker. But then I watched this documentary and you read the postmortem about his later years. Then was a book, this guy — I’m already forgetting his name — just wrote a book, which I didn’t really love. It was called Sympathy for the Devil. It was a guy who knew Gore going back to his years in Rome in 70s or whatever, and it was just a mess. Life, especially if it’s lived long, usually ends messy one way or another because old age is a massacre or whatever. It’s just tough to get old, but it’s especially tough to get old when you’re drinking a gallon of whiskey every day. There’s a part of me that really admired and just loved Vidal for being such a wit, so stinking funny and so sharp and acidic — just good company. I imagine that, at his best, he was really fun to sit at a dinner table with, but he could also be really mean and sloppy. He came unhinged at the end. I’ll say Gore Vidal, but in his prime. Kelton Reid: Okay. Where would you take him? Brad Listi: God, I don’t think I would take him anywhere. I think he would probably pick the restaurant. Let’s just say somewhere in Revello. Kelton Reid: Okay, perfect. Do you have a writer’s fetish at all? Brad Listi: No, I don’t even know what that is. Like I have to have a certain like pen or something? Kelton Reid: Yeah, I don’t know. I know fetish has a couple of different meanings, but yeah, do you collect weird writerly paraphernalia? Brad Listi: No. I’m the least sentimental person ever. Even baby pictures, I’m like, “Shred them. I don’t need them. It’s too much clutter. I don’t care.” I just need some space, quiet, or be in a coffee shop with some headphones on, but I’m not super nitpicky about having to have a certain kind of pen or anything like that. Kelton Reid: Who or what has been your greatest teacher? Brad Listi: The books and the writers that wrote them, no doubt. It starts with the work itself. If I were going to add a dimension that might differentiate me even a little bit, it would be that I almost always get into nonfiction if I like a writer’s fiction or if I like a writer’s work period. Meaning, I’ll always go in search of literary biography, which maybe makes my podcast make more sense. To be really frank with you, I’m often more interested in the literary biography than I was in the work, even when I loved the work. I’m very fascinated with the people who make the work, why they do it, and who they were. That kind of detective work is interesting to me. I guess that might mean that I should write biography. I haven’t done it yet. I don’t know if a straight biography is exactly what I’m wired to do, but some component of that is fascinating. I think the podcast is a form of literary biography, in the aggregate especially. That element of it has been probably the most important thing that I have done in terms of getting an education. That includes getting an MFA. It’s just got to be the case for anybody who does this. You have to read books that move you, and you have to really read them — and sometimes re-read them. Then the other thing about it is that, when I was coming up, I went through a period of about two or three years where every morning I would print out one or two interviews with authors. I just built this huge library of author interviews that I read, and I keep them in a filing cabinet. We’re talking thousands of pages when it was all said and done. I just had this huge library of them. We talked about earlier, rituals to get like ready to work or whatever, that’s what I was doing in my 20s. I would read author interviews and that would get me excited about working, just to hear them talking about the work, why they did the work, how they did the work, and successes they’d had or struggles that they had overcome. That can be extremely helpful and even medicinal, especially if you’re stuck, or you’re feeling down, or your energy level is low. Part of my motivation in doing the podcast is to get some of that for myself, but also to create a place for writers to come and hear and commiserate, virtually at least, and hopefully leave with a little bit more energy or a little bit more hope about their own lives and work. Kelton Reid: You’ve just amassed so much advice from other writers. Do you have any advice yourself, kind of sage advice for fellow scribes on just how to keep going, how to keep the cursor moving? 3 Key Takeaways from over 350 Interviews with Writers Brad Listi: Read a lot, and read interviews with the authors that you love. Find out about their lives because it’s a great way to demystify it. It’s a great way to take them down off their pedestal. Humanizing people we admire is important. It’s often instructive because you can figure out how they did and what happened to them when they hit adversity and how they handled it and so on and so forth. It’s not always great, either. You don’t necessarily learn from the best example every time. Sometimes you learn from the worst example. You learn what to avoid. So there’s that. Having done almost 400 interviews with writers, I think I’ve gleaned it. I try to boil it all down into the simplest possible insights into the writing life, if I can remember them. One of them was don’t do it for money. The writers that I’ve talked to who seem the most well-adjusted and often have the most success, they’re definitely having the most fun doing it. There just not thinking of it like, “Oh I got to make a living from this,” or, “I got to make a million dollars from this.” They’re doing it because they love it. They don’t care if they make money. They like to do it. It makes their life better. That’s one thing. Then if the money comes, great. But it’s not why you do it. It’s not anything you’re expecting. The other thing is read a lot. I’ve said this many times, but one of the big dirty secrets amongst so many writers is they don’t read, or they don’t read regularly, or enough. That’s a bad formula. Don’t do it for money, read a lot, and then write every day or close to it. Those are the three things. If you can do that, you’re likely going to get books done, and you’re not going to be miserable doing it. That’s the best I can tell you. Those are three common denominators. Obviously, it’s a little bit different for everyone, and there are always outliers and exceptions to the rule. But those are the three things, if I had to boil it down, that I’ve come away with after talking to all these writers. Kelton Reid: That’s fantastic advice. Where can fellow writers connect with you out there? Brad Listi: The podcast has its own website. It’s Otherppl.com. Then you can follow the show on Twitter, @Otherppl. Then you can follow me @BradListi on Twitter. Those are probably the best places to keep up with things. The podcast also had its own app, which is free. You can get it wherever you can get apps. You get that app on your device, and then the most recent 50 episodes are available free. You get the app and the most recent 50 shows are just there waiting for you. Then if you want to get to the deeper archives, you can sign up for premium, which is as cheap as like 75 cents a month. It’s 75 cents a month, and you get access to everything. Those are the best ways. Get the app and you should be off and running. Kelton Reid: That’s fantastic. The six degrees of Brad Listi. You probably have some connection to every great contemporary writer at this point. Brad Listi: Fewer than six degrees I would bet. Not that I know them, but I’m sure I know somebody who knows somebody who knows them. Kelton Reid: Thank you so much for taking the time. I do encourage writers to seek out the podcast and also your writing, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Brad Listi: It was absolutely my pleasure, Kelton. Thanks for having me on. Kelton Reid: Cheers. Great advice that all writers should heed. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all of the show notes or to leave us a comment or a question, please drop by at WriterFiles.FM. You can always chat with me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

New York Times bestselling author Austin Kleon has been called one of the most interesting people on the Internet by The Atlantic Magazine, and he stopped by The Writer Files to chat with me about creativity and the writing life.   Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! Austin is the author of three illustrated books — Steal Like An Artist, Newspaper Blackout, and Show Your Work! — guides I recommend to all writers seeking insights for tapping into your endless reserves of creativity and innovation. In addition to being featured on NPR s Morning Edition, PBS Newshour, and The Wall Street Journal, Mr. Kleon speaks about creativity in the digital age for organizations as varied as Pixar, Google, SXSW, TEDx, and The Economist. If you missed the first part of the interview, you can find that here: How Bestselling Author Austin Kleon Writes: Part One In the second part of this two-part file, Austin Kleon and I discuss: Is “Imagination” Overrated? A Simpler Definition of Creativity Why You Should Write for Just One Person How Minimizing Distractions Can Help Your Creativity Why Your Audience Is Your Most Valuable Asset Is Being Boring the Key to Productivity? The Importance of Being Great at Both Art and Life Why You Need to Pick Your Partners Carefully Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Here s How Austin Kleon Writes AustinKleon.com Here s How Daniel Pink Writes Here s How Elizabeth Gilbert (Bestselling Author of Eat, Pray, Love) Writes Air Guitar: Essays on Art & Democracy by Dave Hickey Austin’s Interviews at BookCon 2015 Austin Kleon on Instagram Austin Kleon on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Bestselling Author Austin Kleon Writes, Part Two Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. New York Time’s bestselling author Austin Kleon has been called one of the most interesting people on the Internet by The Atlantic magazine, and he stopped by The Writer Files to chat with me about creativity and the writing life. Austin is the author of three illustrated books: Steal Like an Artist, Newspaper Blackout, and Show Your Work!. In addition to being featured on NPR’s Morning Edition, PBS NewsHour, and The Wall Street Journal, Mr. Kleon speaks about creativity in the digital age for organizations as varied as Pixar, Google, South by Southwest, TEDx, and The Economist. In the second part of this two-part file, Austin Kleon and I discuss a simpler definition of creativity, why you should write for just one person, how minimizing distractions can help your creativity, why your audience is your most valuable asset, the importance of being great at art and life, and why you need to pick your partners carefully. Is ‘Imagination’ Overrated? Austin Kleon: If I ever teach a class on imagination, I’m going to show House Hunters because imagination gets this very, “Oh, to have an imagination is this great skill and talent.” Look, imagination is something that Dave Hickey said. He said, “Imagination is just thinking of a door and seeing it in your head.” Imagination is simply the ability to make images in your head. When you watch House Hunters, these people come into these houses, and they’re like, “Oh God, I really hate the floors.” It’s like, “Oh, I don’t like that paint color,” and they literally can’t get past the fact that this hideous paint. They simply cannot think of what life in this house could be like. Like, “We could rip up the carpet. We could put floors in. We could paint over this paint.” But there are so many people that live their lives like that, too. They literally can’t make images in their head about what could be. People just don’t have imaginations. I was walking on the High Line in New York City a few weeks ago, and everyone thought the High Line was going to fail. A huge group of people was like, “This’ll never work.” It’s like, “A park up on this old abandoned railroad track? Who would ever go to this?” It’s just a complete lack of imagination in people’s minds. As a creative person, that’s what you’re offering people. You have to make the image. You have to make things that people can see. That’s true whether you’re writing a novel, you have to let people see the action, or whether you’re doing a client presentation. Until you put stuff in front of people, most people don’t have imaginations. That’s what you’re there for. Then people are like, “Well, how do you get an imagination?” I’m like, “Well, everyone has it. Hang out with a two year old for a while.” The one way I think is really easy is to start drawing. Drawing is all about making images. If you can learn to make images with a pencil, then you can start making them in your head. That’s my personal opinion. Kelton Reid: Well, if you do, do that class on imagination, I will definitely make an effort to come. Austin Kleon: I can just see the kid looking at the syllabus. “Week 3 – Watch 20 hours of House Hunters.” Kelton Reid: So, Austin, let’s talk about creativity. I know creativity is a giant theme, and it’s a theme you are very familiar with. You talk about it a lot. Why don’t I ask you to define creativity in your own words. A Simpler Definition of Creativity Austin Kleon: I have a really dumb, basic version, a definition for creativity, which is just taking what’s in front of you and everybody else and turning it into something new, that’s not around, inventing something out of the materials that we all have available to us. My friend Mike, when he’s talking about creativity, he’s always like, “Have you ever seen Apollo 13?” He’s like, “There’s a scene in Apollo 13 where they have to make that air filter, and they’ve got pantyhose, a pencil, and some wire” — you know, whatever they have. He’s like, “That’s creativity right there.” Taking what’s around and forming it into something people need or they’ve never seen before, that kind of thing. I just have this very basic notion that’s making something that wasn’t there out of the materials available to you. Kelton Reid: Would you say that you have a creative muse at the moment yourself? Why You Should Write for Just One Person Austin Kleon: That’s a good question. A muse. I don’t know that I have a muse. More than a muse, I feel like I have an audience in mind when I’m making stuff. Everything I write, I always think about my wife reading it first. Stephen King talks about that, how he writes for Tabby, his wife, that she’s his first reader. He always has her in mind when he’s writing. For me, thinking about someone on the other end is kind of the muse for me because it feels like I’m making something for somebody. The pure idea of writing or art is that you do it for yourself, but for me, it gets a lot easier when you think about doing it for someone else — when your work is either a gift, or it’s a tool, or something that you’re making for somebody else. That’s a way of dodging your question. Instead of a muse, I feel like, a lot of times, having an audience or recipient, thinking about them on the other side and then making something for them, that’s what I need more. Kelton Reid: When do you feel the most creative? How Minimizing Distractions Can Help Your Creativity Austin Kleon: I think when I come in the garage. When I enter the bliss station, it’s like, “All right! Let’s make something.” I also feel airplane rides, man. People waste airplane rides. They’re reading SkyMall, or they’re watching whatever stupid in-flight movie they’ve got. That is when I produce, man. I open up my sketchbook and just keep my pen moving, the whole flight, as much as I can, until I can’t stand it anymore. Then I pull out a book and read. There’s something about being stuck, the captivity. There’s nothing else to do. I think about why was I originally brought to the arts in the first place. Why did I ever pull a pen across the piece of paper? So much of it was, when I was a kid, you’re just trying to pass time. You’re stuck in your crappy small town, and it’s like, “Well, let’s play some music.” Just that idea of trapping yourself somewhere and then having to entertain yourself, but not letting something else entertain you. That’s what everyone else does. They’re like, “Oh, I’ll flip through this SkyMall,” or “I’ll watch this movie.” That’s great, and there are places for that. But for me, if I can entertain myself, then I can actually make something. Kelton Reid: Yeah. I’ve heard that before. It’s like the creative constraint, or kind of the boredom. But you’ll be happy to know that SkyMall has been discontinued. Austin Kleon: The thing is, I love SkyMall, but these are all distractions. I’ve learned so much from Dan Pink, the writer and author Dan Pink. Talking about Show Your Work!, he has done this amazing series on travel. He travels so much. He had all these little tips and tricks that I recommend everyone look up. One of his things was, “Never turn the TV on in your hotel room.” He’s like, “Just don’t do it.” He’s like, “Read the book you brought or something else. Just don’t turn the TV on,” which is exact opposite thing that I do at the end of the day. But never do that. This is what the world does. The world wants to distract you. It wants you to be distracted. Think about the way our software is built. Our phones, by default, every program wants you to turn on notifications because they want to interrupt you. One of the first things you can do is turn off all your notifications on your phone. Better yet, just put it in airplane mode. You know what I mean? When you’re on a flight, it’s tricky. Even on an airplane, turning off that stupid TV in the back of the headrest, if you press the brightness button down far enough, it’ll turn off. Just stupid design things like that, they even keep you from turning stuff off. If you can minimize the distractions and go into your own head space, that’s when stuff happens. Kelton Reid: That brings me into our next question. I love Dan Pink and his work. He was on The Writer Files, the written series. Austin Kleon: Oh, cool. Kelton Reid: That was a good one. Austin Kleon: He’s awesome. He’s been super generous to me. I love his work. Kelton Reid: Yeah. I need to get him back in here. Actually, so was Elizabeth Gilbert on the written series, also. Austin Kleon: She seems great. I should read one of her books. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Her new novel got amazing across-the-board reviews. Austin Kleon: That’s great. Kelton Reid: So she’s back. Austin Kleon: She’s a real writer. She’s a worker. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Austin Kleon: My favorite thing that I’ve read of hers is there’s a great profile. If you type in ‘Tom Waits Elizabeth Gilbert,’ she did this wonderful profile of him in 2002 before she was famous. Kelton Reid: Yeah. She was just a prolific journalist. Really, really love her work. Austin Kleon: I never got to be a journalist. So many of my favorite writers started out as journalists. My father-in-law has written for The Plain Dealer for like 35 years. My uncle wrote for newspapers for like 20 years, too, and I feel like there’s a craft that comes from working on a deadline and having to churn stuff out that you just can’t really replace with anything else. Kelton Reid: What do you think makes a writer truly great? Why Your Audience Is Your Most Valuable Asset Austin Kleon: The right readers. I think it’s true of all the arts. It’s all about who’s on the other end. You can be the best writer or the best artist in the world, and if you don’t have the right readers or the right buyers or the right viewers, what does it do? Think about Melville dying penniless, and now everybody reads Moby Dick. So much of that is just context and circumstance, but I would say that part of the writer’s job is to find the right audience, too. That sounds hard, and it is. Readers, writers need readers. That’s why, if we’re in this culture where everyone wants to write but no one wants to read, that’s a dead culture. Know what I mean? There has to be readers. If you’re a writer and you’re not a reader, I know you’re not any good. There’s no possible way you’re a good writer if you’re not a good reader. That was always the big siren went off, like when you’d be in a writing workshop in college and someone says, “Oh, yeah. I really like to write, but I don’t really like to read.” You could write that person off immediately because they’re just no good. It just doesn’t work that way. Kelton Reid: I know we’ve mentioned a handful of amazing writers. Do you have a couple other favorite authors, at the moment that you want to mention? Austin Kleon: I just found the work of this art critic and writer named Dave Hickey. He wrote a book in ’97 called Air Guitar, which is a collection of essays. He’s written art criticism for like 40 years or whatever. He put out a book recently called Pirates and Farmers that I haven’t read yet. Hickey, if he’s not an octogenarian, he’s on his way. I love coming across writers who you’ve got their whole career there for you. The cool thing about Dave Hickey is he has a Facebook. It’s like if your grandpa was the most interesting guy who had hung out with Lester Bangs, Andy Warhol, and Lou Reed — just all these amazing artists — Robert Rauschenberg. Just all these people, and he’s on Facebook ranting. I feel like there’s just something so great about discovering someone when they’re older and they have this huge body of work, and you can dive in. Dave Hickey, his stuff, the Air Guitar is amazing. I just finished that. That’s definitely going to be on my top books of the year. I like to find writers and then just read everything they wrote, and then try to figure out who influenced them and read everything. Just kind of swim upstream. There’s a woman who, I’m probably going to butcher her name, Tove Jansson. She did the Moomins. The Moomins are this family of hippopotamus-looking creatures, and she did a comic strip that was hugely popular in her time, but is kind of less-known now. Then she did these seven books about the Moomin family, seven or eight books about the Moomin family. She grew up with kind of bohemian parents, so the Moomins are her cartoon version of her parents and her family. As a new dad, or still fairly new — I still have that new dad smell — I feel like I’m always looking for models of home life, and Moominpappa is my favorite cartoon character right now. He’s this reluctant dad, in a sense. He would really like to just be playing cards or off writing his memoirs or whatever, but he’s also this bohemian, and I don’t know. They all love each other, and they take care of each other. The Moomins are just this wonderful series. That’s just two examples. My favorites, I tend to, as a Midwesterner who writes and draws, I tend to be drawn to Midwesterners who wrote and drew. I love Charles Schulz and Peanuts. I love Kurt Vonnegut. A lot of people don’t know that he was also a visual artist and a drawer. I love Lynda Barry, who is still around, and she’s wonderful. Kelton Reid: You’re kind of the master of finding these great quotes. They’re just peppered throughout your work. That’s one of the reasons I just like to flip open Steal An Artist and Show Your Work!, but do you have a best of quote floating in your brain right now? Is Being Boring the Key to Productivity? Austin Kleon: The quote I live by is Flaubert. Gustave Flaubert. He said, “Be regular and orderly in your life so that you may be violent and original in your work.” What Flaubert is saying is that you have to be boring in a sense. If you’re having adventures all the time, you’re not going to have any time to work. I’m actually trying to write a talk solely based on that quote right now and that tension between, as a creative person, you feel like you should be out having adventures, but then you also have to sit in a room all day and make something happen — and how do you balance those two — that kind of thing. Kelton Reid: That’s great. I will look for that talk. Austin Kleon: We’ll see. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, a complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more, and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.RM/Platform. You mentioned some literary characters. Do you want to drop a favorite literary character for fun? Austin Kleon: Right now, it’s Moominpappa from the Moomins. I love him. I also love Charlie Brown. Who else? What about my other favorite comic strips? I don’t know. I’m looking around. Yeah. Moominpappa or Charlie Brown. It’s so hard not to relate, you know? Kelton Reid: Yeah. If you could choose one author, living or dead, for an all-expense-paid dinner to your favorite restaurant in the world, who would it be? The Importance of Being Great at Both Art and Life Austin Kleon: I’ve had beers with Lynda Barry before, and I’d love to take her to a sushi place and just drink sake and let her go. I feel like I’m such a Lynda fanboy. I spent a couple hours with Lynda when I was 23 when I got lucky enough to go hang out with her after a talk, and I literally feel like I’ve run off the fumes of being around her for the past, God, that was almost 10 years ago now. She’s just an amazing person. I don’t know. Living or dead, maybe I should go hang out with da Vinci. I don’t know. The problem is, so many of these writers, you wouldn’t actually want to be around. A lot of these people, they weren’t great people. That’s hard, too, because the people whose work you really admire, they turn out to be these weirdos. Like George Saunders would be someone I would hang out. Not only is he a genius, certified, he’s also a mensch. It’s hard to find those people. Those are the people you really have to model. I think that more artists should model themselves on those people that are good at art and life. I wouldn’t want to hang out with Picasso. No thanks. Kelton Reid: Right. I think you’re a collector of lots of different relics. Do you have a big, a bigger, biggest writer’s fetish? Austin Kleon: I’m a simple tools guy almost to a fault. I like dumb, simple tools. I like fine-point sharpies. My friend Clive Thompson, who I mentioned earlier got me into these Palomino Blackwing pencils. I like to sharpen them, and I like to smell them. I love to use them for marginalia when I’m reading. What I’ll end up doing is I’ll just sit there and sniff the pencil while I’m reading, these Palamino pencils. I love those. I’m really particular about my notebooks. I have this certain kind of Moleskine pocket notebook that’s like this tiny little hardback version that will fit in a shirt pocket. I love Field Notes, but I never use them because I can’t fit that in a pocket. I can’t. I want to support Field Notes. I love Aaron and Jim who run that, but I’m so particular. You get used to your tools. Kelton Reid: Yes. Absolutely. Austin Kleon: You have to have a kind of ruthlessness with your tools. You can’t be too political with them. You got to go with what works. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Absolutely. I use a pocket notebook that I’ve been carrying around for years that I can only find at Office Depot. They’re 99 cents each. They’re the hardback, but they’re woven together so that no matter how long you sit on it or how sweaty it gets, it never falls apart. Austin Kleon: That’s the thing about that hardback Moleskine that I use. They don’t deteriorate. You just have to be able to beat stuff up. Now that I make a little bit of dough and I can write stuff off my taxes, I just buy in bulk. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Okay, so who or what has been your greatest teacher? Austin Kleon: I think teachers are so tricky. All I was looking for when I was younger, without laying down on the couch, I was always looking for some Merlin-ish figure to knight me. I was always looking for this father figure to take me aside and say, “Oh, you’re in the club now, son,” and do his blessing and send me out into the world. You realize that that’s just a very immature way of going about your creative life is that people are teachers, but they’re not your fathers. They’re not replacements for anything like that. Anyway, I had a great professor in college named Steven Bauer who, again, I mentioned him before, and he said, “Apply ass to chair.” I took probably four or five writing workshops with him. He was a big believer in the notebook, keeping a daily notebook. He was a very firm believer in showing up and stuff like that. He really gave me that initial push to say, “Yeah, you could be a writer. You can do this.” Kelton Reid: On that note, can you offer some advice to fellow scribes on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? Why You Need to Pick Your Partners Carefully Austin Kleon: I’m going to say something that everyone kind of rolls their eyes when I say it, but I think it’s really true, which is marry well. Marry well. Pick your partners in crime very carefully. That’s true of your romantic partner. It’s true of your business partners. It’s true of your friends. Surround yourself with people who are going to make you better, but also people who will put up with you and will put up with this really bizarre thing that you’re trying to do with your life. I’m going to steal this from Ian Svenonius. If you’re a lawyer or a doctor, everyone’s going to applaud your decision. They’re going to be like, “Great, you’re a lawyer.” “You’re a doctor. Awesome!” You know, “You’re a nurse.” “You’re a teacher.” Whatever. But if you tell people you’re a writer, they’re going to be like, “Well, have you written anything I’ve read or might have seen?” Or, “Do you make any money off that?” Being in the arts and being a creative person, you’re not going to necessarily get validation from your everyday Joe on the street, so it’s very important to have someone in your life that believes in you and believes in the work. I got really lucky. I met my wife when I was 20. One of the first interactions we had is she came into my dorm room and said, “Hey, what are you doing?” I said, “Oh, I’m trying to work on this story.” And I proceeded to rant about the story I was writing for 10 minutes. It’s been like that ever since. But I think, marry well. Have people in your life that will sustain you and help you along. That’s a big part of the battle. Kelton Reid: That’s great advice. Where can writers connect with you out there, online or in real life? Austin Kleon: Yeah. Writers love Twitter. I love Twitter. @AustinKleon on Twitter, and then the easiest thing to do is just go to my website, AustinKleon.com. You can follow me from there on Instagram or whatever the latest fad is. My favorite thing to do right now is, I have a newsletter. Every week, I send out 10 things I think are worth sharing, and it’s free. It’s my favorite thing that I do. You can subscribe to that on my website. Kelton Reid: I didn’t know that, and I am subscribing as we speak. Austin Kleon: Yeah. It’s fun! Kelton Reid: Can you hear my typing? Austin Kleon: It’s fun. I love newsletters. I love technology. I’m very interested in dumb technology that stuck around. The other day, I ordered a pizza at this pizza trailer in Austin. I was like, “So, how long do you think it will be? Can I walk around a little bit?” And they said, “Oh, we’ll text you when the pizza’s ready.” I thought, “Now, this is a wonderful example of simple technology making my life so much better.” You know what I mean? Kelton Reid: Yeah. Austin Kleon: I think email’s one of those things. Everyone hates email, but everyone has it. I think the newsletter is a really fun way to play with sending people these little messages every week. It’s really fun for me. Kelton Reid: That’s great. It’s a good way to build an email list for future updates on books. Austin Kleon: Oh yeah. You know, “I’ve got your email, so I can bug you when I have something to sell. But it will be mixed in with all the other neat things.” Kelton Reid: Thank you so much for stopping by The Writer Files. Again, really appreciate your time and energy. It’s contagious. I definitely want to get back to writing. Austin Kleon: I feel like I should, too. Thanks for having me on. This was really fun. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Oh, and I loved your appearance on PBS’s Book View Now from BookCon 2015. That was pretty cool. Austin Kleon: Oh, thanks. Yeah, I had fun interviewing. I really love to interview. I’d really love to find a way to … I just really love talking to people and hearing about their work. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Austin Kleon: I also really love show business. That’s one thing, I think, that’s hard for writers. The writing is hard for me. Going out and sharing the writing and selling the writing is not. That’s another thing I would recommend to young writers is to understand that there’s not as big a difference between education and entertainment as you think there is. No matter what you’re doing, in a sense, you’re entertaining people, so get into that showbiz mode and own it. Kelton Reid: That’s cool. Well, I hope they tap you for your own show some day. Austin Kleon: I have to admit, there is a part of me that would love to have a TV show. Kelton Reid: Well, I would watch. Austin Kleon: I would have one viewer, then, at least. Kelton Reid: I hope that someday in the future, you can come back and rap with me again. Austin Kleon: I would love that. Kelton Reid: All right, my friend. Have a great one. Austin Kleon: You too. Kelton Reid: I love Austin’s not-so-secret formula. Do good work, and share it with people. Thanks for tuning in to the second half of this two-part file. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all the show notes, or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM, and please subscribe to the show in iTunes. Leave us a rating, or a review, and help other writers to find us. You can always chat with me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

New York Times bestselling author Austin Kleon has been called one of the most interesting people on the Internet by The Atlantic Magazine, and he stopped by The Writer Files to chat with me about creativity and the writing life.   Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! Austin is the author of three illustrated books — Steal Like An Artist, Newspaper Blackout, and Show Your Work! — guides I recommend to all writers seeking insights for tapping into your endless reserves of creativity and innovation. In addition to being featured on NPR s Morning Edition, PBS Newshour, and The Wall Street Journal, Mr. Kleon speaks about creativity in the digital age for organizations as varied as Pixar, Google, SXSW, TEDx, and The Economist. In the first part of this two-part file, Austin Kleon and I discuss: Why You Should Read More Than You Write How a Paper Dictionary Can Improve Your Writing The Difference Between Little Writing and Big Writing Why You Should Research Out in the Open How Your Daily Ritual Can Save You from Failure 3 Symptoms of Writer’s Block and How to Cure Them Why You Should Print Your Work and Read It Aloud How to Harness the Power of Productive Procrastination Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes How Bestselling Author Austin Kleon Writes: Part Two Here s How Austin Kleon Writes AustinKleon.com Clive Thompson, The Pencil and the Keyboard: How The Way You Write Changes the Way You Think Elizabeth Gilbert: “Your elusive creative genius” Daily Rituals: How Artists Work by Mason Currey Austin Kleon on Instagram Austin Kleon on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Bestselling Author Austin Kleon Writes, Part One Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionist, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. New York Times bestselling author Austin Kleon has been called one of the most interesting people on the Internet by the Atlantic magazine, and he stopped by The Writer Files to chat with me about creativity and the writing life. Austin is the author of three illustrated books: Steal Like An Artist, Newspaper Blackout, and Show Your Work!. In addition to being featured on MPR’s Morning Edition, PBS NewsHour, and The Wall Street Journal, Mr. Kleon speaks about creativity in the digital age — organizations as varied as Pixar, Google, South by Southwest, TEDx, and The Economist. In the first part of this two-part file, Austin Kleon and I discuss why you should read more than you write, how a paper dictionary can improve your writing, the difference between little writing and big writing, how your daily ritual can save you from failure, three symptoms of writer’s block and how to cure them, and how to harness the power of productive procrastination. Austin Kleon, welcome back to The Writer Files. Austin Kleon: Thanks for having me. Kelton Reid: You were in the written series, and I’ll point to that in the show notes. That was a really very inspiring interview Q&A. Geez, we’re off to a great start. Thanks for coming back, man. I can’t wait to pick your brain and get into your updated Writer File here. Austin Kleon: I’m stoked. Kelton Reid: For listeners who aren’t familiar with your work, who are you, and what is your area of expertise as a writer? Austin Kleon: I call myself ‘a writer who draws,’ which means that I make art with words and books with pictures. I’ve put out three books. They’re all illustrated books. The one I’m known best for is a book called Steal Like An Artist, which is a list of 10 things I wish I’d known about being creative when I first started out. The other book I’m more well-known for is the sequel to Steal Like An Artist called Show Your Work!, which is a book about self-promotion for people who hate the very idea of self-promotion. It’s all about sharing your work and getting yourself out there. Steal is all about taking influence from others, and Show Your Work! is about influencing others by letting them steal from you in a sense. Before those two books, I did a book called Newspaper Blackout, which is a very strange poetry book — that’s why no one knows about it, it’s a poetry book. It’s made from newspaper articles, and it looks like the CIA did haiku. I pick a few words out of a newspaper article. Then I blackout the rest, and they read like these weird haikus almost. That was my first book. If there was a Venn diagram of my work, I think about it as pictures, words, and the web, and I’m in the middle. The web part is that my whole career has been based on me being active online. I’m actually coming up on my blog’s about 10 years old. When I got out of college, I really didn’t know what I was doing, so I started a blog. In 2005, that was a great idea. It was pretty easy to get started and stand out, especially if you were doing something interesting. I guess less and less I think of myself as a web guy and more of just an author, which is a very strange transition. I had day jobs for a long time, and now I just do this full time. Kelton Reid: You came from a background of graphic design as well. Austin Kleon: Yeah, that’s the weird thing about me. I identify mostly as a writer in terms of where I feel centered in the world, but I have this visual side, this design and art side. I made a living for several years as a web designer. I’m not formally trained in graphic design or art, but that’s always just been part of my life. Kelton Reid: I love those blackout poems. They are very cool. Austin Kleon: Thanks. Kelton Reid: I keep your books by my desk just as inspiration because I feel like I can just flip open Steal Like An Artist anytime I’m feeling I need creative juice. There’s just so much in there. It’s perfect for those moments when you just need a jolt of quick, creative inspiration, so thank you for those. Austin Kleon: I’m glad to hear that. They’re designed that way. You’re supposed to be able to just flip them open and start reading and get something out of it. A lot of people have them as ebooks, but they really shine as print books. Kelton Reid: I agree. The ebook would not do it justice. I think having it in your hands and being able to touch it, and the artwork, is really great. It’s really, really fun. Where can we find your writing out there in the world? Austin Kleon: The best thing to do is to go to your local bookstore and ask for one of my books. That’s the easiest. Otherwise, just go to AustinKleon.com or Google me, and you’ll drop down the rabbit hole of my stuff. Kelton Reid: Yeah, totally. Austin Kleon: I’m a Twitter junky and an Instagram guy, too, so I’m AustinKleon on those. Kelton Reid: Cool. What are you presently working on over there? Austin Kleon: I just finished up something I was not excited about when I started, and now I’m super excited about it. My publisher, Workman, wanted to turn Steal Like An Artist into a journal. It’s really cool. It’s got one of those elastic bands and the envelope in the back, so it’s basically a prompted journal. It’s like an interactive version of Steal Like An Artist that you can carry around and do all kinds of exercises. It’s supposed to be something that you carry around with you and you open up every day. It gets your juices flowing. I just finished that up. That’s coming out in October, and I’m going on a 12-city tour. I don’t have all the cities quite yet. Book tour for me is like I have to get stoked up for because it’s a marathon-type thing, but I’m super excited about the journal. Like I said, I’m so particular about my own journals that the idea of making a journal that other people would use was daunting, but then it turned into this really fun thing. I’m looking forward to doing the exercises myself, along with everybody else. Kelton Reid: I can’t wait to get a hold of one of those. Austin Kleon: I will send you a copy. Kelton Reid: Cool. That’s the best news ever. I’d like to dig into your productivity a little bit and just pick your brain. Austin Kleon: Sure. Kelton Reid: I know that you do some pretty extensive research on stuff. How much time per day would you say you’re just researching for creative inspiration? Why You Should Read More Than You Write Austin Kleon: If I had to put an hour, I’d say anywhere from one hour a day to five hours a day. It so depends on what project I’m working on or not, but for me, I probably read at least three to four times as much as write. That’s a really important thing for my own practice. I know folks like Stephen King, he writes in the morning, and then he reads all afternoon. I’ve always aspired to that. I’ve never really got that done because I like to read and then putter around. If I’m on deadline, I’ll have to sit down and actually bang something out, but I would say probably at least a third to half of the day is based on trying to fill the tanks, so to speak. Kelton Reid: Before you actually sit down and get working, do you have any pre-game ritual or practices that you do? Austin Kleon: I wish I had more. For me, the hardest thing is to get my butt in the chair and sit down and open the file and go for it. I do a lot of free writing by hand. I take a lot of notes by hand, and I really believe in keeping a journal and that kind of thing. But when I’m actually sitting down to make a piece of writing that someone else is going to read, I feel like I have to be in front of the computer. My friend Clive Thompson, if you Google Clive Thompson or search Clive Thompson on my tumblr, there’s a brilliant talk he gave about writing by hand versus typing on the computer. The research he found showed us that writing by hand is great for taking notes and for synthesizing ideas and coming up with new ideas, but when it comes to actually producing writing for a reader, typing on the computer or on a typewriter is better. That’s certainly true on my own practice. It feels like I’m not actually really writing until I’m hitting the keys. Kelton Reid: I love that research — and I’ve always been fascinated. I know you talk about that quite a bit — that synthesis and then the formality, or at least the ritual of actually getting it down. Do you have a most productive time of day or a place where you are most productive for your writing process? Austin Kleon: I have converted my garage into my studio, so I have what I call ‘the 8-foot commute’ from my backdoor of my house to the garage. You know that Weezer song? “In the garage, I feel safe.” That’s what happens. I go in. I flip on the lights. I crank the air conditioner, the window AC. I say hi to my lizard that likes to hang out on my air conditioner. He’s right there right now, actually. There’s something about the actual physical transition between going out the house, being out in the heat, and then coming into the garage, flipping on the lights, that gets me in the mode. I should probably mention that I have a weird setup. Last time we talked, I had two desks. Now, I actually have three desks. Kelton Reid: They’re multiplying? Austin Kleon: It’s getting a little out of control. I have one desk that’s the analog desk, and I talked about this in Steal Like An Artist. The analog desk, nothing electronic is allowed on there other than pencil sharpener. That’s for where I make my newspaper blackout poems and where I come up with ideas and letter stuff and that kind of thing. Then I have a digital desk, which is where I have my computer and my scanner and all that stuff. That’s where, like we said before, the real writing happens. How a Paper Dictionary Can Improve Your Writing Austin Kleon: Now I have another desk that’s more like a standing desk, which is my attempt to recreate a library carrel at the library. It’s got a bunch of reference stuff on it. I’ve got all my files above, so I file stuff. Then I have an actual paper dictionary there that’s this big honkin’ American Heritage. I go over there, and I look up words. I really recommend to folks use the dictionary and get a paper one. The dictionary on the Mac is pretty good, but a paper dictionary, there’s something about having to turn to the page and read the entry. Then you see all the words around the entry. You always find something interesting. That’s something I stole from John McPhee, the writer. He did this brilliant series of articles for The New Yorker about how he writes, and his big advice is never use a thesaurus. Never use a thesaurus. Always use a dictionary. Look up a word in the dictionary, and it’ll give you ideas for better phrases to use and that kind of stuff — so, yeah, three desks: analog desk, digital desk, and then my reference desk. I just dance between the three all day. I hate standing. I know there’s a big vogue right now for standing desks. I hate standing desks so much. I cannot write when I’m standing up. Part of the fun for me of being a writer is leaning back in my chair and staring out the window and then typing and then looking at the squirrel out my window, this lizard. That’s the fun for me, and I have a really nice office chair. That, for me, is the good stuff. Death to standing desks. Kelton Reid: It’s interesting you say that because I use my standing desk mostly just for correspondence stuff or when I’m just surfing Twitter or whatever. I can’t write at the standing desk, anything of any import. Austin Kleon: What you just said, that’s what happened to me. I have my computer on the standing desk, and I just found myself always walking over there and answering an email, blah, blah, blah, and doing that little light work. Then I never really was able to just zoom in and do stuff. Kelton Reid: Yeah, I’m with you. Are you a night owl, or do you get out there? Austin Kleon: I’m sorry. I didn’t even answer your question. Kelton Reid: That’s okay. Austin Kleon: I really like to work when the world is sleeping. I love early morning, and I love late nights. The problem with that is I have two kids. I really love to sleep, and that’s the only time they’re asleep. I cannot make myself get up that early anymore. I’m really lucky my wife stays home with the kids. It’s amazing that we’re able to do that. It’s also kind of insane, or drives my wife insane, but I basically keep 10 to 5 hours. It’s like working in an agency or something. It’s like 10 to 5, so I’m doomed to the afternoon, which Dickens called ‘Mongrel time’ — it’s neither day nor night. I hate the afternoon, but there’s something about being in the garage in the afternoon and losing track of what time it is that kind of helps — so afternoons for me. I hope, eventually, that I can just get up in the morning and write 1500 words at 5 am, but I just can’t do it yet. Kelton Reid: Are you cranking music in the garage, or do you prefer silence? Austin Kleon: It just depends on what I’m trying to do. If I’m researching and reading and just messing around or blogging, I’ll just listen to soul music or garage rock, just the stuff I like. If I’m really trying to come up with ideas and really write something, I’ll either put earplugs in — I know Dan Pink writes with earplugs. There’s something about having complete silence. You can hear your blood pumping. I love that. I also like music I can ignore, so I put on classical or jazz or Brian Eno or something like that. Then if I’m on deadline, if I’m doing something I hate that I know I have to finish, I will play the most meatheaded, loud stuff I can, like Soundgarden, ACDC, or Led Zeppelin, just the most meatheaded rock I can possibly muster. I’ll turn that up as loud as I dare, and I’ll just crank through. It’s almost like a punishment — it’s not funny but at Guantanamo, I think they play Metallica when they’re torturing people — and that’s kind of how I feel. It’s like, “Let’s play this metal music and torture yourself until you’re done.” The gun to your back, so to speak. That’s a horrible metaphor, but that’s kind of how it works. Kelton Reid: Hook up the electrodes. Austin Kleon: Yeah. Kelton Reid: You’re just an incredibly prolific online publisher by your blog, so when you’re working on a book at the same time, are you alternating between things, or are you getting out there every day and just cycling between stuff? The Difference Between Little Writing and Big Writing Austin Kleon: I try to post a few things every day. If you do that, it just seems like a lot. When I’m really working on a book, I’m pretty heads down on the book, and you’ll see the online stuff slow down. The one thing I want to make a point about is I just don’t really see a big difference, particularly with my process, between what we call ‘little writing’ and ‘big writing.’ Whether you’re making a Tweet, or you’re tumbling something or writing a blog post, or you’re writing a book, to me, it’s all typing in the boxes. I’ve had Tweets that led to blog posts that led to book chapters, you know what I mean? It’s all just kind of this stew. Why You Should Research Out in the Open Austin Kleon: The one thing that you can do — if you’re insane and you have too much time on your hands — is you can watch me. I’m researching in the open. You can see what I’m interested in, and you can get an idea of where I’m going without me telling you. That’s the ‘show your work’ thing is that I’ve been really interested in letting people watch me as I go, and then what happens is that all these stuff comes back at me. I’ll Tweet out something, and then somebody else will say, “Oh, well, have you read this?” I say “No,” and I look that up. It’s this cycle between publishing and receiving. It is, it’s a cycle. I know a lot of writers do it differently, but I like researching out in the open and letting people help me along. A lot of my books could probably be reconstructed from my online output, but in that nice little package. You pick up the book, it’s all there. It’s all been edited. It’s all trying to make this coherent argument, and it’s just not the same. I just like that — researching out in the open. Then eventually you get a book at the end of it. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. I love how you talk about creativity not being linear and the importance of the daily practice. You are practicing what you preach, but it’s cool. How Your Daily Ritual Can Save You from Failure Austin Kleon: It’s the only way I can see … when you’re young-er, because I’m not that old yet, but when you’re younger, you just think, “I’ll just arrive at some point. I’ll get to this point, and people will notice me, they’ll know me, and I can just sit back.” If you’re lucky enough to have a little bit of success when you’re younger like I did, it scares the crap out of you. You realize suddenly, “Oh, I’ve been talking a big talk about how I want to be a writer and how I want to be an artist and all that stuff, and now it could actually happen. I might have to do this the rest of my life.” Elizabeth Gilbert, I’ve never read any of her books. I love her. She’s done a beautiful profile of Tom Waits, and I’ve read a little bit of her non-fiction. She did this TED talk where, after Eat, Pray, Love came out, she said, “I probably have 40 years of work left, and it’s very possible that my biggest success is behind me.” Kelton Reid: I love that TED talk. I’ll link to it, but it’s so good. Austin Kleon: It’s so good, and it was so honest of her to get up there and be like, “I know. I know I was lucky. I know this might never happen again, but I have to keep going.” It’s funny because I think her next book actually wasn’t a very big success, and then she gave another TED talk, because she’s Elizabeth Gilbert, and talked about failure. For me, I just put this post up online recently. It was a little talk I gave about how everybody thinks creativity is like Don Draper closing his eyes and then having a big revelation. I never feel like Don Draper. I always feel like Phil Connors in Groundhog Day. Phil wakes up every day at 6 am, and he’s got to do something with his day. He knows there’s no tomorrow. He knows all he’s got is this day. I love that movie because, at first, he cheats, he fritters away the day, and then he falls into despair. Then, at the end, he realizes, “I just have to work. I have to practice a craft, or I just put the work in every day,” and that’s when his life gets better. As an artist or a writer, you really just have to get in to the dailyness. You have to figure out a daily routine in which you go out and you do your work, and then, if you have a daily practice and a ritual, you’re insulated from success and failure because they’ll both screw you up. Failure, we all know about. Success will do the same thing. It will knock you off your game, but if you have this dailyness to your work, that will pull you through so many situations. That’s why I love Mason Currey’s book Daily Rituals. Kelton Reid: Me too. That’s a good one. Austin Kleon: That’s like writer porn, right? You open it up, and it’s like, “Ooh.” The thing I really liked about that book is my books are prescriptive — I’m telling you what to do, like do this, do that. It’s bossy, and that has its place — but I like Mason’s book, Daily Rituals, because it’s just this big collage of what other people have done before you. Then it’s your job to pick and choose from what you want. But you get the sense when you read that book, it’s like, “You got to go in and make the doughnuts, every day.” You know what I mean? “You got to go in to the garage and make something happen, and it’s going to be the same tomorrow and the day after that, until you die.” If that seems daunting, you’re in the wrong work. Kelton Reid: That’s why I love Show Your Work!, where you’re talking about the incremental process. One of my favorite quotes, I don’t know if it’s from that book in particular, but where you say, “Writers aren’t born. They are made.” Austin Kleon: That’s something I have to believe for myself because I’m not superhumanly talented. I’ve got a decent amount of talent, but I’m not like James Brown. I’m not Miles Davis. But the funny thing, I just mentioned James Brown — there’s a great documentary about him out right now called Mr. Dynamite — and the thing about James Brown is you just realize this is a guy worked every day. He just never stopped. You’ll find that with all these geniuses. Not only were they superhumanly talented, they also worked all the time. I’m a lazy person. I always think of myself as a lazy person. I don’t like to work, but I know that if I don’t, I will do nothing. I had a really good creative writing professor named Steven Bauer, and his thing was, “Apply ass to chair.” “Apply ass to chair.” He’s like, “Write it on an index card and put it above your desk — apply ass to chair.” He was like the Allen thing. You just show up. If you show up every day and you do the work, those little bits and pieces of effort, over time, they add up into something. You write a page a day, it doesn’t seem like much in the day, and then at the end of the year, you got enough for a novel, 305 pages. Kelton Reid: Just veer from the script for a minute — do you feel like that transparency, where you’re giving your audience a window into your creative process, that has almost a psychological effect on you? Why Sharing Is the Most Powerful Thing You Can Do as a Writer Austin Kleon: It does, and you have to be careful with it. One thing I didn’t touch on, Show Your Work!’s supposed to be a pep talk. It’s supposed to push people who are afraid to open up a little bit — just try one little thing every day, but the thing about being transparent is you have to really gauge what and how and how much you show. You have to really look at your process and what’s really close to you that you can’t share. Then you have to think about what you can. The point I want to make with that is that I think people get this idea that I’m like, “Yeah, sure, everything dude. Put your novel on GitHub.” That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying find the little bits and pieces of your process that you think might be interesting or helpful to someone else, and push out those little bits and pieces as you’re working on something. In that way, you are around, first of all. People don’t forget about you. Then you’re able to keep your head down and do your work while you’re just sending out these little transmissions. That was really the idea behind Show Your Work!. When I’m really working on something that’s really important to me, like I didn’t share the journal when I was working on it. I knew I had two months to finish it before my son was born. I could not conceive of any way in which me sharing my work would benefit me in any sense, but the things I was sharing were like I was looking at other people’s notebooks, and I was Tweeting and tumbling out that stuff. Novelists will come to me, or fiction writers, they’re like, “Should I put drafts of my stories online?” I’m like “No. Don’t put drafts of your stories online. Save your drafts for your really close readers and for your writing group or your wife or whoever. What you should be doing is write about the books you’re reading, talk about a writing tool that you found really helpful, or talk about structure in a Hemingway story you’re reading.” Do that kind of stuff, that process-y stuff that you think no one cares about. Every fiction writer should be posting a list of books they’re reading. That’s the easiest thing in the world to do. From a marketing perspective, throw an associate’s code in there, and anyone who buys the book, get something back from it. I’m always amazed at writers who don’t tell people what they’re reading. I think a lot of people think that reading’s a personal thing. The reason people read you is that they’re hungry for the types of books you write, so if you read those types of books, too … The interesting thing about my genre is that I think a lot of people think I sit around and read creativity books all the time, which is not true. The reason that my books are interesting is because I read all kinds of different books. This has always been a personal thing for me. I have always felt like if I was true to the things I was really interested in and sharing the things I was really interested in, people would follow along just because, in the act of sharing things, that’s how I can either find my people or I can introduce people to new stuff. I don’t really like the word ‘curator,’ but I like sharing. In this day and age, one of the most powerful things you can do as a writer is to share stuff. Kelton Reid: Definitely. I love that. All right. Let’s just wrap up productivity with the writer’s block question. Do you buy in to it? Do you ever get it? 3 Symptoms of Writer s Block and How to Cure Them Austin Kleon: I feel like writer’s block is just exhaustion, laziness, or fear — or some combination of them. A lot of times when I’m blocked, it’s just that I don’t want to sit down and write. I just don’t want to because it’s just not my favorite thing to do. I would rather read. Fran Lebowitz, she’s like, “If you ever feel like writing, just lay down on the couch and read a bit. It will pass.” That’s how I feel. I also think that people hit walls, and a lot of times when nothing’s coming, when the output doesn’t happen, that’s because there’s problems of input. A lot of times problems of output are problems of input. If you don’t have anything coming out, that means there’s not good stuff going in. That could be anything from you need to take a trip, or you need to just walk away from your desk, or you need to stare at a wall for a while or read — just something to get something jump-started. A lot of times with block, some people try to power through a block, and I’m just like, eh, walk away for a bit. Everybody’s had that experience — you’re in the shower, you’re on a walk, and that’s when the juices start flowing. With that said, you need a time and place every day to do the work. Kelton Reid: Yeah, I like how you talk about the bliss station. You’ve been known to mention it. Austin Kleon: That’s a Joseph Campbell thing. Everybody’s heard the ‘follow your bliss’ thing from Joseph Campbell, but the one thing Joseph Campbell talked about in that, too, was having a bliss station, having a place where you can go, and no one’s going to bother you, and you feel very much at home, and you can do your work without the world impinging on it. For me, that’s the garage. Kelton Reid: What about workflow there in the garage? I know you did mention that you’re working on a Mac. What particular hardware are you presently working on? Why You Should Print Your Work and Read It Aloud Austin Kleon: I have two computers. I splurged and bought myself a big iMac. I write on that in the garage. I also have a 13-inch Macbook Air, which I think is probably one of the greatest laptops ever made. I had a 12-inch PowerBook in the early aughts that was wonderful, but this one, it’s about the same form factor actually. The Mac Air is such a fun computer to travel with and write on, but I don’t use anything fancy. It’s just off-the-shelf Macs. I write Google Docs, or sometimes I use Word. A lot of times now, I just type into a text file that’s getting saved to Dropbox. Dropbox is probably the one piece of software I couldn’t live without these days because it keeps everything. I even look at stuff on my phone. Macs with Dropbox on it, pretty much, you could do whatever you want. I just think so many of the writing programs, they’re just everything else. They’re just way too complicated. Just open a box and type in to it. That’s why I love TextEdit on the Mac. I just open that up, make the font really big, and start typing. Kelton Reid: That’s cool. Austin Kleon: I would like to see a series in which people actually talk about their nuts and bolts of what’s on their screen when they’re writing. I’ve noticed that, if I’m just trying to free write, if you make the font super, super big so you can’t see any of the other words, that’s a great mental tool to use on the word processor. But then if you’re editing, it’s really important to be able to see paragraphs and the shape of writing, so use the zoom tool, too. That’s a very underrated tool. Of course, the other thing I think is super important is you have to print your work out, look at it on a piece of paper, and edit it with pen. I also think everyone should read their writing aloud. Kelton Reid: I love both of those methods, honestly. Austin Kleon: Both of which are going out of fashion because everyone’s like, “Oh, paperless,” and it’s like “No.” And everyone works in an open office now, so it’s like you’re going to feel like a moron if you read your writing out loud. Those two hacks — printing stuff out, editing by hand, and reading aloud — are super easy ways to improve your writing. Kelton Reid: Love that. Do you have any methods of madness for staying organized over there? How to Personalize Your Organization Process Austin Kleon: I love Dropbox, like I said. Dropbox and really having a folder system in Dropbox helps. I just write stuff. I’m going to sound such a goof. I have three notebooks going all the time. One of them is a pocket notebook which I write down to-do lists and stupid ideas that I’m having and stuff like that. That just stays in my pocket. I have a sketchbook that I keep in the house and in the studio where I’ll collage stuff in there and then I’ll draw and that kind of thing. Then I have another notebook, what I call my logbook. It’s a 365-day moleskin diary, and every day at the end of the day, I write down — I don’t talk about my feelings or anything like that — I simply list what I did all day. Like “Went here for lunch,” “Went in and got my TSA pre-check application,” “Took the dog for a walk” — dumb stuff like that. I just list things, or what I was reading, or what I watched on TV. One of the things I’ve noticed — because it’s so hard to keep a diary — but if you just simply list, start to finish, the things you did every day in the list, when you’re flipping back through that, it recalls the whole day for you. You can remember how you were feeling. I have a terrible memory, so I love being able to go back. I have seven years of logbooks now, so I love being able to say “When did I replace the air filter in the attic?” I can go back six months and find it, or “When’s the last time I got a haircut?” That was really practical, but I can also say “Hey, how did I write the last book?” I’ll flip in to my logbook, and I’ll be like “Oh, well, here was a day where I did 4,500 words,” and “Here’s a day where I did nothing,” and “Here’s a day where I said I was going to give up and give the advance back.” You know what I mean? I have such a terrible memory that I just forget what it’s like to be in these projects. Having these books that I can flip back through, even with my kids, it was very helpful for me to look back on how I felt after two months of having my first kid. I was like “Oh, this existential dread and angst, this is how I felt last time, and it got better.” I think keeping a record of your day is something that a writer, we’re recorders of memory anyway, so that helps me a lot. Kelton Reid: I like that. You talk about ‘productive procrastination’ quite a bit, and you’ve written about it. Do you have some best practices for beating procrastination yourself? How to Harness the Power of Productive Procrastination Austin Kleon: Yes. The best thing to do is to practice what you said, productive procrastination, which means have one or two or three things going all at the same time. When you get sick of one thing, you can work on the other thing because you hate the other project so much. Then when you get sick of project two, you can move back to project one. You have to work, but you basically use procrastination as a way to get things done. For me, it’s like, “I don’t want to write this talk that’s coming up, so I’m going to do a blog post,” or “I don’t want to do this blog post, I’m going to go make a poem.” As long as you’re getting something done, you can use procrastination to be productive. Kelton Reid: Love it. How do you unplug at the end of a hard day there? Austin Kleon: Right now, about 8 o’clock at night, my wife and I, after we get our kids down, we just look at each other, and we give each other a hug. We’re like, “You did it. You did it again.” We sit down, and we just watch stupid television — just bathe in the glow of Louie or Hannibal. I love Broad City. Broad city is probably my favorite show. Then if we’re really wiped out — we only get a few channels because they changed to digital and we didn’t get one of those boxes. We only get a few channels and HGTV, so we’ll just turn on House Hunters and just watch the dumbest TV imaginable for 30 or 40 minutes. Then we just go to bed, and I read. That’s basically our ritual. That’s what TV’s for. It’s such a vogue thing that, “Oh, I don’t own a TV,” and I’m like, “That’s what TV is for, is to turn your brain off.” Everyone’s like, “I got to be productive. I got to do this.” Dude, sometimes you need to just not think about anything, and when you need to not think about anything, that is what television is there for. Kelton Reid: Yes. Austin Kleon: The Wire’s great and everything, but House Hunters is like therapy. Kelton Reid: At least you know how to buy a house in Caracas now. One great reminder from Mr. Kleon: writers aren’t born, they are made. Now it’s up to you to do that daily work it takes to get there. Thanks for tuning in to the first part of this interview. The second half will be published early next week, and I think you’re going to want to check it out. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all of the show notes, or to leave us a comment or a question, please drop by WriterFiles.FM. You can subscribe to the show on iTunes. Leave us a rating or review, and help other writers to find us. You can always chat with me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

Have you ever wondered why great writing creates an emotional response in readers? Welcome to another guest segment where I pick the brain of a neuroscientist.   Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! Research scientist Michael Grybko — of the Department of Psychology at the University of Washington — returned to the show to help me define empathy from a scientific standpoint. Mr. Grybko sheds some light into the darker corners of our understanding of how to tap into the hopes, dreams, and fears of your readers. If you missed the first installment of The Writer s Brain you can find it here: Mirror Neurons Empathy Maps: A Complete Guide to Crawling Inside Your Customer s Head Kelton Reid on Twitter The Transcript How Neuroscientist Michael Grybko Defines Empathy Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. Welcome to another guest segment where I pick the brain of a neuroscientist. Have you ever wondered why great writing creates an emotional response in readers? Research scientist Michael Grybko of the Department of Psychology at the University of Washington returned to the show to help me define empathy from a scientific standpoint. He’ll shed some light into the darker corners of our understanding of how to tap into the hopes, dreams, and fears of your readers. If you missed the first installment of The Writer’s Brain: How Neuroscientist Michael Grybko Defines Creativity, you can find it at WriterFiles.FM and on iTunes. In this episode, we’ll discuss how science is changing our definition of empathy, what actors and doctors have in common with writers, how to resist the dark side of empathy, the difference between good storytelling and great storytelling, and why writers need to crawl inside the heads of their audience. Mr. Grybko, welcome back to The Writer Files. I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to chat with me about empathy. Michael Grybko: Thank you for inviting me back. Happy to be here. How Science Is Changing Our Definition of Empathy Kelton Reid: Empathy definitely comes up a lot when we’re talking about how about effective writing of any discipline, and I’ll start with a quote from Mark Twain, who said, “The author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of this tale and their fate.” I think he’s talking about empathy for sure. Michael Grybko: Yeah. Kelton Reid: It may not be called empathy in particular in fiction writing, but empathy really is — at least part of the definition is — a study in understanding and entering into another person s feelings, inhabiting their feelings. This is definitely what great writers strive for of all disciplines. I think we should start out by looking at some of the definitions from a psychological perspective, at least, so that we can get into that neuroscience piece. Let me start with Oxford English Dictionary’s take from the psychological theory of Lasswitz: essentially, a physical property of the nervous system analogous to essentially the electrical capacity or believed to be correlated with feeling. Now, I have no idea what that means. Michael Grybko: Yeah, that’s a little vague to me, too. But what we’re starting to do is we’re starting to link that empathy has something to do with the brain, basically. Kelton Reid: So that’s what electrical capacity means in the nervous system, okay. In psychology and aesthetics, we have a definition that says the quality or power projecting one’s personality into or mentally identifying oneself with an object of contemplation and so fully understanding or appreciating it. That sounds closer to a layman’s definition of empathy. Finally, that psychological definition is the ability to understand and appreciate another person’s feelings and experience. Michael Grybko: Yeah, and I think that one’s probably the most concise and hits the nail on the head, there. I think all these definitions are good and acceptable, interesting. But now, things are changing a little with neuroscience, because now that neuroscience is involved, we’re really looking at the brain activity and what’s going on in the brain, and what’s the neurological kind of correlates for the empathy. One of the things I think is really interesting is that empathy has been recognized for a long time. Long before neuroscientists really started looking at empathy, humans have recognized empathy and its power and its effects. It s kind of funny, it’s one of these situations where scientists may be finally recognizing and catching up with what everyone else knew for a long time. But what’s interesting now is that we’re starting to understand how the brain works in regards to empathy, so we can start studying it and start understanding some of the deficits and problems with it as well. It’s really interesting. This goes back a long time — your reference to pathos. Why Pathos Is a Good Jumping-off Place for Writers Kelton Reid: Well, let’s talk about that for a second. I think pathos is a good starting place, for at least for writers, because writers and online publishers or marketers, we talk about empathy a lot as the ability to get inside the head of your audience or customers or your readers. Just to go back a step here, I love Eugene Schwartz. He’s this copyrighting guru of yore, but his book Breakthrough Advertising talks a lot about this and about the importance for copywriters to possess sensitivity, foresight, and intuition. We’re all saying the same things, and this was written decades ago, but these are the ability of writers to really tap into people’s hopes, dreams, and fears, and pathos is something that’s been around forever. It’s that technique using rhetoric that writers employ, and many people employ in all disciplines, to inform, persuade, and motivate the audience to feel something, right? Michael Grybko: Right. Yeah, and that reference to pathos — was that Aristotle? It goes back that far? Kelton Reid: Yeah, absolutely. What Actors and Doctors Have in Common with Writers Michael Grybko: And this idea of the concept of emotional appeal — this can be seen in acting. This is what we’re getting at when actors are encouraged to connect with their audience. And what they’re really trying to do here is, is the audience able to empathize with the actor? The more the audience can empathize the actor, the more connected and probably the better the performance, and the more the audience gets out of the performance. Also, I think another example is doctors. They ve often been encouraged to empathize with their patients. You hear about doctors having good bedside manner. I think this is what they’re getting at. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Michael Grybko: So yeah, it’s been around a long time. Only for the past few decades have we really been studying empathy at the neuroscience level. From the neuroscience perspective, the definition has evolved a bit now. One of the key components of empathy, from a neuroscientist viewpoint, is that there are these overlapping brain regions between a subject and observer. So there’s areas that are active whether we observe an individual going through some emotional state or performing some kind of task, or we do that task and go through that emotion ourselves. Are Mirror Systems the Key to Human Empathy? Kelton Reid: Are you now referring to the mirror neuron? I’m not sure what the terminology is from the neuroscience perspective, but that kind of mirror effect? Michael Grybko: Yeah, neuroscientists generally referred to mirror systems, and there’s also mirror neurons. Mirror neurons you hear a lot about. It s become a popular term. But this is a really a specific set of neurons. I ll go into some of the history here, if you want me to? Kelton Reid: Yeah, sure. I’d love that. Michael Grybko: So, I ll share the background and clear up a little confusion. I’ll start off with the discovery of mirror neurons, because that’s what launched the whole idea of empathy and showing that it’s a product or a consequence of neuronal activity. This was a serendipitously discovered phenomenon. A group in Italy, led by Rizzolatti, was doing some work in the motor cortex of monkeys. This was done in the early 90s. They found a group of neurons that were active when the individual performed an action or observed a similar action being performed. Strictly speaking, these are the only true motor neurons that have been classified. Now, most work being done on mirroring and empathy in the brain is done in humans, and we use fMRI. This is something we talked about a little bit in our previous discussion about creativity, this fMRI technique. There’s some limitations to this technique, and the main one is that we are measuring blood flow in the brain. When neurons increase activity, they require more blood. Therefore, we correlate and increase blood flow to a certain area of the brain with increased neuronal activity. But we don’t have the resolution to say whether a specific group of neurons is active. If you are comparing two individuals, one performing and action and one observing one, we can tell if similar areas of the brain are active, but not specific neurons within those areas. For this reason, we usually don’t use the term mirror neurons. We refer to these as mirror areas or mirror systems. Kelton Reid: Gotcha. Michael Grybko: Just for specificity, we really can’t tell if specific neurons are active. The initial work, finding the mirror neurons and the monkeys, really opened the floodgates to this type of research and provided a lot of answers to a lot of the questions neuroscientists have been asking. Continuing this idea of mirror systems, some cool work was done with just touch. So this is another area where we see mirroring. Good examples of this are if you are watching a movie and see a spider crawling up someone s arm or a snake slithering down someone s shirt, and you get the heebie-jeebies. That’s a similar system. You can actually feel that. Some work done by Tania Singer, who is now at Max Planck in Germany, showed that there are overlapping brain areas active whether we experience physical pain or are observing someone else’s pain. She took individuals, put them in an MRI, and gave them brief shock to their hand. Nothing too painful, but just enough, like a pin prick. She observed what brain areas were active. She kept the same individual in the fMRI, and she recorded the brain areas activated. This time, the individual was observing the expression of a loved one experiencing the same stimulus. Interestingly, they found some of the same brain areas were engaged, whether individuals were actively sensing the pain or observing someone else’s reaction to the pain. This was also done again. There’s another study with a feather duster, with similar results. Similar brain activity was seen whether someone felt a feather duster rubbing up against their leg or watched a video of someone having the feather duster rubbed up against their leg. This is still touch and physical mirroring. Most people think about mirroring behavior, and most people think about emotional empathy. There’s usually some component that this leads to humanitarianism behavior. Empathy is the driving force that s pushing us to help individuals in distress and do good things. Kelton Reid: Philanthropy. How to Resist the Dark Side of Empathy Michael Grybko: Yeah, exactly. Although this is true, and this is an effect of empathy, there are some not-so-flattering effects as well. We also empathize anger, stress, and anxiety. Those can have some real bad implications. Empathy gone too far, even positive empathy and love for others, can lead to cronyism and nepotism. If you think of individuals who may be willing to hurt others to help the people that are close to them, and they’re empathizing with the people that are very close to them, they will harm others. A good example of this is some corporate corruption. One of the examples that came to mind was Bernie Madoff, where he was defrauding all these people, yet he had his sons and his family incorporated into his company and he’s really taking care of them. A lot of people are like, Bernie Madoff — how could he do this? He must have no soul. He must not be able to empathize. In fact, he was empathizing, just so strongly with his family that he was willing to hurt other people. Kelton Reid: Interesting. Almost sounds like a cult. Michael Grybko: Yeah. I think there is a lot of that in some of these darker sides of humanity, where we can almost over-empathize with the wrong people. Kelton Reid: Choose who you empathize with. It’s kind of like the force. Don’t go to the dark side. Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. The Difference between Good Storytelling and Great Storytelling Kelton Reid: This is all really fascinating stuff, and I can’t help but turn to storytelling. I know we re not covering storytelling in this episode, but good storytelling is really utilizing empathy. Michael Grybko: I think so, yeah. Kelton Reid: Great storytelling is probably activating some mirror systems. In a sense, what’s one of the takeaways for writers about realizing that the empathy really comes from the other side? Michael Grybko: Right. The key here is that the observer is the one empathizing, so the person reading — your audience — they are the ones that are empathizing with the character or the story. The key is, you want a believable character, or at least their emotions and their reactions to be believable and familiar to the audience. Kelton Reid: This is what great storytelling does. It really taps into that. I guess as online publishers, we really are all storytellers. I keep saying storytelling because it s an important piece in the empathy discussion. Why Writers Need to Crawl inside the Heads of Their Audience Kelton Reid: Let’s turn for a second to online marketing and online content creation. I know I pointed you towards this piece that Demian Farnworth did called Empathy Maps: A Complete Guide to Crawling Inside Your Customer’s Head. He’s echoing the sentiments that I had noted before by Eugene Schwartz. I’ll just pull a quote from out of there: “We all need to know our customers in order to create products that they will actually buy. It doesn t start with the product. It starts with the customer. That means the media you create, be it a podcast, a blog post, a story, an ad, a screenplay, these all contribute to attracting that audience, and as your audience grows you learn more about their needs, wants, hopes, and fears.” I am paraphrasing here, but can empathy help writers of any discipline understand and get inside the heads of their audience and their hopes, dreams, and fears? That s a pretty simple, straightforward way of putting it. Michael Grybko: Again, I think we have to realize what I said before. The observers are the ones empathizing. A marketer trying to empathize with his or her target audience would be really difficult. I think in the Empathy Maps: A Complete Guide to Crawling Inside Your Customer’s Head, this is sort of addressed, the difficulty with this. It’s really important to, as is brought up, to research and know your audience. The more research you can do, the better you know the audience, the more likely you ll be to write a convincing story or come up with good characters and contact and make some sort of emotional contact with your audience. Kelton Reid: Right. That emotional piece is key. One of the facts in there was that these emotional ads outsell informational ones by 20 percent or something. How Marketers Tap into Well-Worn Paths in Our Brains Michael Grybko: Right. I saw that. There’s some research showing that emotional ads, or ads which cause an emotional response in the audience, were much more successful that ads that didn’t. This really isn’t the marketers empathizing with the customer. It’s the customer empathizing with the character in the story that the marketers created to sell their product. What’s going on here is more going back to memory, how we remember things and how we acquire knowledge, and this is something we talked about in our previous discussion about creativity, so I won’t go through all of it again. There are a couple ways to do it. A few things influence the formation of long-term memories, and one of these is repetition — doing something over and over and over again. Another key component is weight, and a great way to add weight to a memory is by attaching emotion to it. I think what’s going on here is the audience is having an emotional response, and therefore, they are associating that emotional response with whatever product is being sold or marketed. Therefore, they are remembering it better. It’s helping consolidate that memory. Kelton Reid: Those are well-worn pathways, in other words. Michael Grybko: Yeah. It’s just creating a stronger memory. When you make an emotional response, if the audience is empathizing with the story line, they’ll just remember the product better or the content of that story better. Kelton Reid: I was speaking with Adam Skolnick about these writing formulas and James Patterson’s MasterClass on writing, where he promises to teach writers how to write a bestseller. He’s clearly learned the formula. The guy has almost 100 bestsellers to his name. He’s in the Guinness Book of World Records, etc. There is a formula. Hollywood screenwriters are told there is a formula. Copywriters are often working from formulas as well. Empathy’s a big piece of that. It’s almost like there are these well-worn pathways, because we have all been marketed to since birth essentially. Michael Grybko: Sure, sure. Kelton Reid: But so much of it is really about storytelling. I keep coming back to that, good storytelling. Michael Grybko: Right. I think it comes down to almost manipulating your audience. A good marketer — or a storyteller, or writer, screenwriter, play writer — knows how to get to their audience and knows how to write a character or a story in which the audience will connect through empathy. Kelton Reid: That brings us full-circle back to that definition of pathos, which is pretty apropos. How can writers of any discipline empathize better? The Key to Empathizing with Your Readers Michael Grybko: It would be hard to really empathize, so I think it comes down to doing research to empathize with your audience, unless you re taking the time to really sit down and connect one-on-one with your target audience. If writers are willing to do that, to go that far, then they can start empathizing. You’re empathizing when your emotional response is the same as the person you’re observing. If the marketer or writer is actually getting angry because of something that upset their audience, getting sad because of something, some grief the audience is experiencing, then they’re empathizing. Why Great Marketing Starts with the Desire to Help People Kelton Reid: It s really interesting that you say that, because I think some of best online marketers and online content creators are part of their target market. Michael Grybko: Yeah. That’s a great way. If you’re marketing, sell it to yourself first. Maybe that’s a good way to start. Kelton Reid: You probably are coming up with a solution to a problem that you had. Michael Grybko: Right. Exactly. Is this something that s causing you some distress? Are you solving a problem? Is this something that is going to make your life easier? Save some time? Kelton Reid: No. That’s the good side of the force and the empathy piece. You’re not really manipulating people. You are helping people, and you re empathizing with their struggle hopefully. Michael Grybko: Right. Depends what you re selling. Kelton Reid: Right. Well that is really fantastic. I guess my next question is, where do we go from here? How can we take what we have learned about creativity and empathy and look at the next piece in the neuroscience? What I want to say is, under the microscope, what’s the next piece to look at for writers? Michael Grybko: Okay. That’s a good question. Kelton Reid: Would it be storytelling? We keep coming back to it. Michael Grybko: Storytelling. Yes, I think so. What neuroscientists are looking at now are the consequences of empathy, and it s an incredibly complicated area to study. One of the problems we are running into is when we are talking about emotional empathy, there s a lot of different brain areas involved, a lot of different neurochemicals and trying to find that. Where’s the root of empathy in the brain? There are some good studies going on. I won’t go through all of it, but one of the major chemicals we are looking at is oxytocin, which has been thought of as the love hormone and norepinephrine is another one, and that’s the stress hormone. Neuroscientists now are looking deeper into these questions about consequences of empathy, looking at these more discrete structures, and trying to narrow down the chemicals involved and the areas involved. What we’re finding is, our emotional states actually have a lot to do with our cognitive ability and have a huge influence on it. Certain aspects of cognition fluctuate as our emotional states fluctuate. Also, I think stress is another important one, and that’s something we are looking at quite a bit. We’re looking at a lot of work being done with mitigating stress and anxiety through use of meditation. We re going off into that. I think all of this is important for writers, too, understanding that your audience is going to comprehend things differently depending on their emotional states, stress, anxiety, and depression. Neuroscience is trying to tease this out. It s really interesting, and I’ll have to keep you updated. Kelton Reid: That’s great. I think we should ask those questions, and I would love to have you back to talk about both storytelling and the meditation piece, which is huge right now. I’m very curious about that. I think I read something recently that said that meditation has been shown to change the way your brain is working, so that is really curious to me. Michael Grybko: Right. There’s a lot going on. Actually, Tania Singer — she did the pain study that I mentioned earlier — she’s doing a lot of that now. Now she’s getting deeper into the emotional pain, and she’s a big advocate of meditation. There’s an institute at Stanford that just opened, the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research, and they’re doing all sorts of stuff. Buddhists monks and things like that. Storytelling is obviously — as we kept on touching on the importance to have an emotional connection with the audience, the characters — really interesting as well. Kelton Reid: Great. Michael Grybko: Yeah, I would love to be back and discuss some more of these topics. Kelton Reid: Fantastic. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day. I know you guys are getting crushed over there, but I really appreciate it, and we look forward to having you back. Michael Grybko: All right. Thank you for having me. I will talk to you soon. Kelton Reid: Stay curious my friends, and resist the dark side of empathy, if you can. Thanks for joining me for a glimpse into the workings of the writer s brain. For more episodes of The Write Files, or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM, and please subscribe to the shown in iTunes if you have not already. Leave us a rating or review, and help other writers to find us. You can find me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

This week, award-winning, globe-trotting travel journalist Adam Skolnick returns as guest host for another edition of Writer Porn, where we discuss pertinent, writerly paraphernalia that has crossed our collective radar.   Adam is the author and co author of 25 Lonely Planet guidebooks. He has also written for publications as varied as the New York Times, ESPN, Men’s Health, Outside, and Playboy. He recently finished his first narrative non-fiction book — based on his award-winning New York Times coverage of the death of the greatest American free diver of all time — titled One Breath (slated for publication in January). In this 41-minute file Adam Skolnick and I discuss: What is Writer Porn? How to Counteract the Negative Effects of Sitting All Day Why You Think Better on Your Feet Is Binge Reading Online Making Us Dumber? How Taking Notes by Hand Might Boost Comprehension Why Relaxing Your Process Can Help Your Productivity Learn How to Write a Bestseller with James Patterson Is the MasterClass Startup onto Something Huge? Adam Skolnick s Patterson MasterClass Experiment How to Listen to Moby Dick for Free Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Is Sitting a Lethal Activity? Everything Science Knows Right Now About Standing Desks Yoga Hacks: How to Undo the Damage of a Desk Job 5 Things You re Doing Wrong At Your Standing Desk You Won t Finish This Article Binge Reading Disorder James Patterson s MasterClass in Writing Adam Skolnick on Instagram Adam Skolnick on Twitter Writer Porn on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! The Transcript Writer Porn: Standing Desks, Binge Reading, and James Patterson s MasterClass Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. This week, award-winning, globe-trotting travel journalist Adam Skolnick is back as guest host for another edition of Writer Porn, where we discuss pertinent, writer-ly paraphernalia that has crossed our collective radar. Adam is the co-author and author of 25 Lonely Planet guide books. He has also written for publications as varied as The New York Times, ESPN, Men’s Health, Outside, and Playboy. He recently finished his first narrative, non-fiction book based on his award-winning New York Times coverage of the death of the greatest American free diver of all time. In this episode, Adam and I will discuss how to counteract the negative effects of sitting all day, why you think better on your feet, is binge reading online making us dumber, why relaxing your process can help your productivity, and how to write a bestseller according to James Patterson. What Is Writer Porn? Kelton Reid: I am pleased to welcome Adam Skolnick back to The Writer Files for another edition of something that we are calling ‘Writer Porn.’ Adam Skolnick: Ha, ha, ha. Porn! You said ‘porn.’ Kelton Reid: What is Writer Porn? Adam Skolnick: I have no idea. You named it that. Kelton Reid: I think it’s things that come across our desk that are pertinent to the writing life. Adam Skolnick: Oh, to the writer and only the writer? Kelton Reid: Sure, yeah. Adam Skolnick: What if our listeners aren’t writers? Kelton Reid: Well, that’s okay. We welcome you. Adam Skolnick: Welcome, welcome non-writers. Kelton Reid: I collect these kind of tidbits of whatever they might be — quotes, writer-ly advice — and lump them into this category, and I asked you back, and thankfully you took me up on it, to do another session where we riff on some of these things. It’s a little bit different than the interview segments that I do for The Writer Files, but I’m excited to have you back. Thanks for taking time to do this. I know that you just finished your book. That’s very exciting. I don’t know if I’m allowed to say this, but I did get to look at a galley. Did you know that? Adam Skolnick: I don’t think it was a galley. I think I emailed you the book. Yes, I knew that. I emailed it to you. Kelton Reid: Oh. Adam Skolnick: Who do you think emails my emails? Do you think I hire an email service? Kelton Reid: I don’t know, but I was very honored to get into it. Man, it’s good stuff, very compelling. I’m excited for the rest of the world to get a chance to see it. Congratulations, man. Adam Skolnick: Thanks, man, I really appreciate that. Kelton Reid: What are you presently working on over there? Adam Skolnick: I am about to get on a boat with Jack Johnson and a couple of pro surfers in the Bahamas, and I’m going to sail through the Bermuda Triangle to Bermuda, researching marine plastic pollution for a magazine story. I leave on Friday for that. That should be a wild and interesting journey. Kelton Reid: Jack Johnson, is he the musician? Adam Skolnick: Yeah. Kelton Reid: Okay, cool. He’s also a well-known surfer, so I get it now. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, yeah, he’s lives on the north shore of Hawaii. He’s been surfing his whole life. The ocean’s important to him, and he’s giving back. He’s sponsoring this expedition. It should be cool. Kelton Reid: Sounds really exciting. I’m jealous. Adam Skolnick: Thanks, man. Well, I hope it’s cool. I’ve never gotten sea sick before, so I trust I’ll be fine. I bought a windbreaker at REI, so I think if I bring my windbreaker, and my moleskin notebook, and nothing else, I should be fine. Kelton Reid: Your bikini. Adam Skolnick: Oh, my bikini and my cowboy hat. Kelton Reid: Yeah, don’t forget the hat. It really completes the look for you. Now that I’ve got you here, I can pick your brain about some stuff that’s crossed my desk. I know you’ve seen a lot of these things as well. How to Counteract the Negative Effects of Sitting All Day Kelton Reid: Speaking of desks, the first thing we should chat about is standing desks. Essentially, I keep seeing more and more stuff about standing desks. For people who work online and are professional writers — full-time writers, content creators, what have you — a lot of us are getting these missives about the standing desk. Do you have a standing desk, Adam? Adam Skolnick: I do not, Kelton. Kelton Reid: Have you ever used a standing desk? Adam Skolnick: I have. There was a period of time where I had two desks going on, and I would switch back and forth. It was one of those butcher blocks that became a desk. I’d have my sitting desk and my standing desk, and I liked it. It worked, but with me and my lifestyles, I’m so nomadic that I end up just pretty adaptable. I’ll sit wherever I have to sit to work. When I was writing the novel, the non-fiction book, it just required too much focus. I didn’t find standing at it was working for me, but if I’m working on a guide book, something like the Lonely Planet book or a magazine article where it doesn’t take as much long-term focus, I can bang out a few things standing. I do stand a lot when I’m talking on the phone in between. I don’t sit all day at any one point, but I’ll sit for a couple of hours at a time maybe. Kelton Reid: Well, I think writers of all disciplines tend to work sitting down for many hours at a time. Now we’re seeing evidence that, that excessive sitting can technically be considered a lethal activity — or we keep hearing sitting is the new smoking. Adam Skolnick: Yes, but what would sitting and smoking be then? Kelton Reid: Probably not great for you. Adam Skolnick: No. Kelton Reid: I quit many, many decades ago. Adam Skolnick: I only smoke on the treadmill now. Kelton Reid: Writers are investing money in these standing desks for their health. There’s a couple different kinds of standing desks. Certainly, there are some hacks to get into a standing desk. You could do what you do, just use a higher counter. Adam Skolnick: Yes. Kelton Reid: That New York Times article, Is Sitting a Lethal Activity?, pointed out that there are a cascade harmful metabolic affects that occur when we’re sitting. It’s not great for your heart or your cholesterol levels to be sedentary. Adam Skolnick: Right. Kelton Reid: Over a lifetime, these unhealthful effects of sitting do add up according to research by these epidemiologists. Am I saying that right? Adam Skolnick: Epidemiologist, yeah. Kelton Reid: Thank you. At the American Cancer Society, they did this huge study that showed a definite overall increase in the death rate. They estimated that, on average, people who sit too much definitely shave a few years off their life. Adam Skolnick: Well, that makes sense to me. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Adam Skolnick: I think everyone knows that sitting and being a potato of some kind — couch or desk potato, I guess that’s what we are now, desk potatoes — that’s going to be bad for your physical fitness. Not everyone has the space or the attention span, frankly, to create the perfect work environments. You’re one of those people that your physical environment, your interior environment, your office has always been important to you, so you’re going to do something about it. There are a lot of people like you. Then there are people who just don’t have the capacity to care about much. What I read recently, I read something in Outside Magazine that said it’s really not necessarily that you’re sitting all the time while you’re working — it’s that you’re sitting all those hours unbroken. I know Outside just published something online, and if you look at cures for sitting at the desk or something on their website, Outside Online, you’d find this incredible exercise routine that wouldn’t take long. It includes things that babies do — crawling and rolling yourself over without using your hands on your back. Basically, just rolling over, rolling from one side of the room to the other, and it does something. It aligns your body and your posture in a way that basically counteracts everything you’ve been doing at the desk for that 55 minutes beforehand. If you do something like that every five minutes, that’s another example that that could help, every five or 10 minutes, or if you take two hours to work and then 15 minutes to do moderate yoga or something in the office to counteract it. Take a walk around. It’s the unbroken sitting that’s the bad part. I don’t think it’s that you can’t sit at a desk and work. What you’re doing, which is to allow yourself to be more productive in different ways, is also a great cure for it. There’s a lot of ways to do it. Kelton Reid: Sure, absolutely. There’s definitely no one way. I have seen the yoga poses, which, frankly, isn’t something I’m going to do, but one of the other studies was saying that, in that sense, any kind of non-exercise activity — ‘thermogenesis’ is what they call it, or NEAT is the acronym — is basically the little movements that you do throughout the day to counteract that stuff, any kind of stretching or moving around in the office. Why You Think Better on Your Feet I tend to pace, which is another thing that we can talk about in a second, but it’s actually really good for you. Just getting up and walking around helps you to be more creative, interestingly enough. What that big study showed was that the good news is that, that peril can be countered is — I think, the point that you are also getting at. This other study by these Canadian researchers showed that both types of the different standing desks actually reduce sedentariness, which is one of the big problems, and improved mood. Either a standing desk or a treadmill desk, and clearly the treadmill desk is going to be a little bit more distracting. Adam Skolnick: Treadmill desk? Kelton Reid: A treadmill desk. This is a thing. Basically, overall, they’re saying the evidence suggests that both standing and treadmill desks may be effective in improving overall health, both physiologically and your mental health combined. It’s kind of interesting, but they did say that the treadmill desk ranked lower for productivity stuff. I think that’s probably because how can you walk and … Adam Skolnick: I don’t think the treadmill desk is destined to be a big seller. I’m going to go out on a limb here. Kelton Reid: Well, you wouldn’t know until you tried it, but I just can’t imagine doing it. Adam Skolnick: That’s going to hurt its product profit rollout. Kelton Reid: I’m not selling it here. I’m not an affiliate. Adam Skolnick: It’s going to hurt the product rollout if you can’t imagine ever using it. Kelton Reid: Probably. Adam Skolnick: That’s the problem with the treadmill desk. Kelton Reid: International Journal of Health, Promotion Education proved that, in another study, that people really do think better on their feet, which is probably another check mark in the category of we should be probably standing more while we work. There are some ways that have been proven to be effective, and there are some ways that actually probably wouldn’t be that effective. I think the treadmill desk is a question mark, but making sure that you’re using the right posture when you are actually using a standing desk is also important. Are you using the right technique? This other article that I found, basically — for MakeUseOf — said that if you’re using the wrong posture, it’s going to basically counteract those positive things that you’re doing as a user of a standing desk. My hack here was I’ve inherited a very nice bookshelf from a friend. It looks like some kind of piece of modern art, but it has the perfect height to put a laptop, which should, according to MakeUseOf, be at eye level. Of course, typing on the laptop at that level would be terrible for, say, my back or getting some type of carpel tunnel syndrome, so it is suggested to do some kind of Bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse on a different shelf, and that’s exactly what I’ve done. Zero dollar hack — I have a standing desk. I can get up and use it when I start to feel slothful. Slothful? Adam Skolnick: Yes, slothful. Okay, I think we’ve covered standing desks. Kelton Reid: Okay, well, that was the big one. It’s been a topic that keeps coming across my own desk, so we nailed it. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, we really nailed that one. I hope they’re all still listening. Is Binge Reading Online Making Us Dumber? Kelton Reid: Let’s talk about word consumption. Adam Skolnick: Let’s talk about it. Kelton Reid: What does it mean? Adam Skolnick: Binge reading disorder, is that what you’re referring to? Kelton Reid: Yes, binge reading disorder. Adam Skolnick: Ah, explain binge reading disorder, Kelton Reid. Kelton Reid: Well, I’m not sure if that’s the scientific terminology for it, but according to data, recent data, a typical American consumes more than 100,000 words a day and remembers probably very little of that information that’s being scanned into their cerebral cortex. Adam Skolnick: Is that a good thing? Kelton Reid: I don’t know. Is it making us dumber? What’s your take on it? Adam Skolnick: I don’t think so. I think we were already dumb. Kelton Reid: That’s a great answer. I think we can just stop right there. Adam Skolnick: I don’t know. Typically, if I’m reading stuff online, it’s typically mindless sports drivel. News stories I’ll read on my phone in the morning. I’ll get the newspaper on the phone. You’re reading more now. You’re just not reading all of it in the same place. The big argument is, is there a difference in reading it on the screen versus reading a hard copy? I like to read both ways. I don’t think it matters. I’m kind of agnostic on platform stuff. It’s just easier to use a Kindle when I’m on the road. I’ll use a Kindle when I’m on the road, and I don’t feel bad about it. I don’t think it’s making us dumber at all. If anything, our memories are probably hampered because you can Google anything at any time, but that also makes our arguments more informed. Instead of just two people talking over a cocktail about something that neither of them knows anything about but really being really passionate about it, they can actually Google it. Then they don’t have to talk about it anymore. Kelton Reid: True. Yeah, I pull out the smartphone on countless occasions in any sort of, not argument per se, but discussion. Adam Skolnick: What-does-it-all-mean type discussion? Kelton Reid: Sure, sure, right. I think it’s interesting that — going back to that Atlantic article by Nicholas Carr, Is Google Making Us Stupid? — where he argued that the abundance of information that the Internet provides is diminishing our abilities to comprehend what we read. I don’t know how I feel about that. I do feel at times like I know too much because I’ve scanned so much stuff in there. What this study found, at least the UC San Diego report, said the average American basically ingests 100,000 plus words — includes text messages, emails, social media, subtitles, advertisements. Adam Skolnick: Right. Kelton Reid: We’re just bombarded with stuff. Adam Skolnick: Yes. Kelton Reid: The truth is that when this gentlemen, Josh Schwartz — he’s a data scientist for the traffic analysis firm Chartbeat — found that the way people read on the Internet is that they very rarely make it past halfway through any article that crosses their desk, and there’s a very large percentage that don’t even get into the article. They just click the link, grab a link, share it without even reading it. So a lot of the stuff that we’re seeing in the Twitter feed is stuff that these social shares haven’t actually ingested, comprehended. Adam Skolnick: Yes, that’s for sure. People do that all the time. I, myself, have done that once or twice. I don’t know if Schwartz knows that. Was it Schwartz? Did Schwartz out me on that one? Kelton Reid: Yeah, he pointed me to your sham Twitter feed. Adam Skolnick: Damn you, Schwartz. Listen, if I Tweet out a link, chances are I’ve read at least half of that link. If there’s something at the end of that story that makes me look like a jerk, it’s not my fault because I’m just following. I’m just following. Kelton Reid: Right, but this is probably what most of us are feeling that, “All right, I kind of get it,” so we’re scanning. We’re scanning. Adam Skolnick: Well, I think we’re also parroting. We see someone’s Tweet come across, and we’re like, “Oh, I like that guy, so that must be cool.” You just want to support that person. For whatever reason, you want to be a positive in their social media sphere for that moment, so you do it. Kelton Reid: Sure. Adam Skolnick: I think a lot of times the Retweets of other people’s links are fine, but the funny part is if no one ever read the link. Kelton Reid: Right. Adam Skolnick: What if the person who you’re Retweeting hasn’t even read the link that they’re Retweeting, and it’s just this crazy hall of mirrors. Kelton Reid: Sure, it’s a crazy hall of mirrors. Adam Skolnick: Wait, you’re saying the Internet is a hall of mirrors? Kelton Reid: Well, there’s definitely an echo chamber. Adam Skolnick: Is that what Schwartz is saying because he’s a genius? Kelton Reid: Yeah, well, this is some kind of existential question about something else. Moving on, a peer report comparing the habits of ebook readers versus print readers, which is kind of interesting, noted that paginated reading comprehension far outpaced the continuous, infinite scroll, like we face on the Internet every day. Maybe there is something to be said for comprehension of reading done in a different way than we are so used to seeing on the Internet. Adam Skolnick: Well, that could also just mean books are taken more seriously than the general scroll, or the time you take to leaf through a magazine is going to matter more than the general scroll that you do on a typical day. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Well, I think this researcher from that report in Sweden said that scrolling took more of your mental resources that could be spent comprehending text, at least enough to memorize it. I guess if you’re doing some pretty heavy research, you probably want to make sure that you’re staying a little more focused. I think coffee works great, too. Adam Skolnick: Oh, yeah, good. Kelton Reid: Is that helpful? Adam Skolnick: No. I think we should just go directly to James Patterson okay, at the beginning of your podcast. I think you’re going to find, as you go through this podcast, it really should be all Patterson. This is our big tease to the Patterson experiment. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. How Taking Notes by Hand Might Boost Comprehension Kelton Reid: Okay, we’re going to skip over the notebook portion. I’m assuming that’s what you’re suggesting? Adam Skolnick: Well, I don’t know. The notebook portion? We could do the notebook portion. Kelton Reid: Well, I just think it’s interesting that this other study, the last study that we’ll mention, by a researcher at Northwestern University, showed that students who took notes in a notebook in a class compared to on a computer ended up with better test scores for that class. I’ve seen this in a few different places. Adam Skolnick: Yeah. Kelton Reid: How do you feel about that? Adam Skolnick: I might have talked about this in the last podcast. I feel like I’m repeating myself, but I was a part of a process at Lonely Planet when Lonely Planet was going to a shared publishing platform. Before that, authors were preparing their manuscripts in Word, emailing that to a coordinating author, who was putting that all into one document, and sending that in to the publishers, who were then taking it apart and putting it in their own publishing platform internally, their own software so that they could paginate and do everything they needed to do. Then after that book was done, the web people would take it apart, put it online, and update whatever their online content was. Basically, what that was doing was making it impossible to have fluid, updated material online and in a timely and efficient way because everything was geared towards the brick-and-mortar bookshops and the print books. Now, as everything was changing, I think about 2008 this was, whenever I was in Colorado doing that. Was that ’08? No, that was like 2010, so everything started to change around 2010. They decided to get sleeker and try to be more competitive, and try to figure out a way that you could be updating online at the same time you’re updating the books. They had a couple of us pilot this shared publishing platform experiment where I would take notes in my phone or on an iPad. They didn’t want me using my moleskins, which is how I was usually taking notes when I was in the field. It was everything from using this new database type platform when we were writing it up, but all the way to, in the field, try to use some other type of equipment. At first, I thought, “Wow, I’m going to lose something in the translation,” because I always thought there’s something about putting your pen to paper in an analog way that opens your brain and opens your own perception and comprehension in a way that’s unique and interesting. I always thought that. At first, I found it really clunky to use the iPhone for notes, but then over time, I just stayed with it. I was asked to stay with it for a week and see if it changed. Within a few days, it started to change. Within a few days, I started to get comfortable taking notes. Now I can take notes on the phone faster than I can write them in a moleskin. I can then save those notes. The notes are going to constantly get uploaded to the cloud, so you’re not going to lose stuff. If you somehow lose a notebook, you’re screwed, but not on the phone. I also find that this idea that using a pen and a paper opens your mind in a certain way isn’t so accurate anymore, either. Once I got used to doing that, I could come up with similar insights. I don’t think the insights are any different. My conditioning to creating the insight, or discovering my own insight, or whatever it might be that was a condition, I just happened to be doing that while I was using the pen and paper. When I started to use the phone, it worked that way, too. Now, when you’re trying to comprehend something, I think writing it down might do something to your brain that typing it wouldn’t. I don’t know, but it might. Could be. It sounds like Solomon found that to be true. It could be, yeah. Kelton Reid: A lot of my stuff definitely starts on paper. I find that it helps me early on in the process. Then I move into the more digital idea-building. I feel like the ideas are born more easily for me when they start in a notebook or on a note card, but I’m a fan of all these hybrid models, you know? Why Relaxing Your Process Can Help Your Productivity Adam Skolnick: Yeah. I think the key point for writers, especially newer writers or younger writers that are making a go of it, the important point isn’t are you sitting at a desk, or standing up, are you using a notebook or are you using a phone, or using a laptop. The key is do it. Just keep doing it. It doesn’t matter. I’m really agnostic with all this process stuff. I’m not a real process guy. Partly, it’s because I’m on tight deadlines a lot, so I’m constantly having to do it. Partly because I’m traveling so much, I’ve just become adaptable by nature. The key thing is to not be too precious, for me anyway. I think the more precious I get about the way things have to be done, the greater the excuses to not getting things done. That’s my personal approach. It’s not everybody’s approach. I think process can really matter for some people, and it’s really important. Some people are super interested in that. I’m less interested in that and more interested in are you doing the work. However you need to do it, do the work. If it helps to create a process that works for you, then do it. I’m just to the point where process takes a back seat. Kelton Reid: Nice, that’s a great take away. Thank you for getting us there. Adam Skolnick: Sure, man. Learn How to Write a Bestseller with James Patterson Kelton Reid: So — precious. Let’s talk about another precious American resource. Adam Skolnick: No, this man is decidedly not precious, which is probably the greatest thing about him. Kelton Reid: James Patterson. Adam Skolnick: That and his website. Kelton Reid: James Patterson. Adam Skolnick: James Patterson. I am so excited to be talking about James Patterson, mainly because I’ve never once read a James Patterson book, not one time. Kelton Reid: That is so strange. I cannot honestly say the same thing. The reason we’re talking about this is because he is offering a masterclass in writing through a website called MasterClass, a startup called MasterClass. There’s no question that James Patterson, whose annual salary clocks in at $90 mil it looks like, knows how to write a bestseller. Now, for $90 — that’s right, $90 American — you, too, can learn how to write a bestseller from James Patterson. Adam Skolnick: Yes, or not, but we’re going to find out if this works. Kelton Reid: What is it about James Patterson that ruffles people’s feathers, aside from the fact that he is the author of 19 consecutive number one New York Times bestsellers? Adam Skolnick: I think it’s because he has basically created this stable of co-authors and comes up with these ideas. Then they execute them. Then he manages to turn them all into bestsellers — it’s almost like the sausage factory of writing. That bothers a lot of people, especially in the literary world, who are super driven towards the auteur type production. Although, in a lot of ways, what he’s doing is kind of the new 2.0 version of Pulp Fiction past, which was just get stuff on the market and get people reading. He’s very un-precious about it, which is probably the coolest thing about it. I haven’t read his novels, so I have no idea how good they are. There must be something to them. They’re selling a lot. Kelton Reid: Sure, so he’s basically the bestseller machine over there. Now he’s working with these ghostwriters and co-authors. Probably nothing wrong with that other than it ruffles some people’s feathers probably in the literary. It actually even ruffled Stephen King’s feathers, but it’s interesting debates about James Patterson and his kind of claim to fame. Adam Skolnick: He’s written 95 novels since 1976. That’s amazing. Kelton Reid: Yeah. He holds the New York Times record for most bestselling hardcover fiction titles by a single author, a total of 76, and that is also a Guinness record. Adam Skolnick: That’s amazing. He’s got something going on, you know? Kelton Reid: Well, he clearly knows what he’s doing. Adam Skolnick: Yeah. Kelton Reid: In a sense, could you compare him to McKee and his kind of screenwriting formula? Adam Skolnick: Well, I don’t know because I’ve read a story by Robert McKee, and I liked it. I thought it was interesting. I don’t know. I’m excited to hear that part. For me, personally, why I’m interested in the course — aside from hoping that there’s some amazing James Patterson quotes that we can talk about on the podcast over the next several weeks — I’m hoping that it’s absurd but also poignant. I’m hoping he strikes gold here and there. I’m sure not every episode’s going to be great, but I’m hoping there’s some good moments. I keep thinking of Adaptation. Kelton Reid: Yes. Adam Skolnick: That great movie with Nicholas Cage where he plays Charlie Kaufman, and Kaufman takes the Robert McKee class after his twin brother had taken it and decided to write a screenplay. Now Charlie, who’s kind mired in writer’s block and is having a hard time turning The Orchid Thief — a great book by Susan Orlean — into its own movie, he takes McKee’s class. McKee berates him publicly, and then gives him some great, great tips. That’s an amazing scene. It’s tremendous, and I hope at some point James Patterson personally lambastes me during this class. Kelton Reid: What? Okay. Adam Skolnick: Kaufman was having a hard time in that scene. I know it’s fictional, but it’s still funny. He was having a hard time because he was trying to take this somewhat complex subject and turn it into a story without falling into the cliché traps of beginning, middle, end, action, act 1, act 2, act 3 — all the things you’re supposed to do. He wanted to break that mold. McKee basically tells him, no, you’ve got to see that mold through and come out in the end because life is like that. I, personally, have a different issue. I get attracted to ideas that have so much to them, it’s hard to distill it in a simple storyline. I’m always envious of writers who can create simple, small, perfect stories. I think those are the stories readers like the best. They can relate to them the best. They can get lost in them a little easier. Even the book I’ve just finished — which I really like, and I think you can get a lot out of it — there are three levels to it. It works for that book, but if I’m going to write a better novel next time around my previous novel was this slice of life, 10 years of my life squashed into one. There’s just so many twists and turns to it. It’s definitely not that neat and tidy story. I think, if anything, Patterson definitely has story hooks down. I’m interested in being able to reign myself in as a writer and bringing my energy into a bit more of a tight story. I’m hoping Patterson will have some tips in that regard, so that’s a serious reason. Kelton Reid: True. Adam Skolnick: I’m hoping there’s something there, and then I’m also hoping there’s a lot of unintentional comedy. Kelton Reid: Well, there is something to be said for these writing formulas, and certainly Hollywood uses it, a screenwriting formula, as you know. Copywriters also use formulas all the time. I’m thinking of the AIDA method for writing good online and print copy, which is attention, interest, desire, action. These are all things that writers can learn from. I think it’s interesting, actually, you coming from a creative non-fiction, fiction, and screenwriting background, me coming from some of those same backgrounds with the copywriting thing thrown in there — it’ll be interesting for us to experiment. So, what are we going to do? Adam Skolnick: Well, I think we have to figure out, do we like Patterson, first off. I think it’s easy. It’s funny, you look at this MasterClass, and you can take acting classes from Dustin Hoffman or tennis lessons from Serena Williams. It’s so absurd. Is the MasterClass Startup onto Something Huge? Kelton Reid: Well, the MasterClass project is very interesting. Adam Skolnick: It’s just completely absurd, but it’s like your famous icons pitching infomercials. Kelton Reid: Right. Adam Skolnick: It used to be the people on infomercials were the people who were the washed-up actors of old. For instance, I think it would make more sense if Erik Estrada was giving a masterclass on acting online than Dustin Hoffman. That’s what I think. Kelton Reid: What these guys have done with the MasterClass Project, this San Francisco startup has gotten some really impressive, marque names to back them for this San Francisco based project. Well, not only did they get Usher and Robert Downing Jr.’s company, and Michael Bloomberg’s venture capital, Bloomberg Beta, backing for this project, they’re using some really high-profile directors to make these online courses, which are kind of the new black for sure. They’re directed by top filmmakers, so they look beautiful. They have interactive exercises. Hopefully, one of them is Mr. Patterson yelling at you. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, I hope so. I’m holding out hope. Kelton Reid: They come with additional learning materials, Q&A sessions. This is the new — and it’s been around forever — online business model. These are like beautiful digital products, like the highest quality. Adam Skolnick: Yes, they’re great products. But they’re like dream products where people taking them can imagine that one day they’ll be like the person teaching them. Kelton Reid: Right. Adam Skolnick: In reality, it’s just a way to get those other people rich. It’s not like this giving. Listen, if Dustin Hoffman and James Patterson wanted to teach a class, and they cared mostly about just giving what they’ve learned to create their legacy freely to people, they would do it for free and on YouTube. Kelton Reid: Okay. So you’re saying it’s not philanthropy? Adam Skolnick: Absolutely not. It’s this crazy marketed approach to teaching people. I think it’s going to be limited, but I’m interested in it because, if anything, there’s going to be nuggets. I don’t think you could put people who’ve accomplished what they’ve accomplished on camera telling them to teach the way they want to teach and not have nuggets. I think it’s one of those flawed, genius concepts. Hopefully we’ll find out. Adam Skolnick s Patterson MasterClass Experiment Kelton Reid: Okay, so we’re going to put journalist Adam Skolnick on the case, and you are going to take the course. I’m going to try to do it as well, if I find the time or the patience. Adam Skolnick: First, we’ve got to read up on some Patterson. Kelton Reid: What are you going to read? Adam Skolnick: I don’t know. I’ve got his list. There’s 1st to Die. If you look at Goodreads, and there’s a Listopia I guess, and Goodreads. I like Goodreads. It’s a cool website. They have the list of favorite Patterson novels. 1st to Die comes up number one — 91 people voted, and that’s number one. It’s part of his Women’s Murder Club series, which is interesting, so I’m going to do that. I love a whodunit, so I’m cautiously optimistic about 1st to Die. You wanted to do Along Came a Spider, right? Kelton Reid: I think so, yeah. I think I want to start there with the Alex Cross. That sounds more up my alley. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, you know what, I think so, too. I think I might switch. I never saw the movie. Kelton Reid: It’d be kind of like CliffsNotes — how do you pronounce it? How to Listen to Moby Dick for Free Adam Skolnick: CliffsNotes. That’s like I’ve never read Moby Dick. I’ve read the CliffsNotes of Moby Dick, and now I’m going to read Along Came a Spider. So far. I’m exactly who they’re looking for. I’m the target audience of the MasterClass. Kelton Reid: They have a Moby Dick Big Read. You can hear the entire Moby Dick read by famous people. A lot of them are famous authors that read the entire text of Moby Dick. It’s a free podcast. You can download it today. Adam Skolnick: Really? Kelton Reid: Yeah. Adam Skolnick: I thought we’re supposed to read it. Kelton Reid: Exactly. Okay, last thing I’m going to skip over the fact that James Patterson is also starting an imprint of Ray Schultz’s books because does he really need to extend his brand further? Adam Skolnick: He’s just having a good time. There’s something about how his website, I love how he just having a good time. Like he doesn’t care. He’s breaking all the social mores. Somewhere the great authors, like Jonathan Franzen must hate James Patterson. I can only imagine. Franzen must think Patterson is the devil. Kelton Reid: Oh my. Adam Skolnick: I wouldn’t know, but it seems to me that Franzen’s pretty serious about his work. I love Franzen, and I have no idea if I’m going to like Patterson. I love Franzen, but I can imagine a guy like that who’s super literary, literary to the 10th degree, isn’t going to be into the Patterson approach. But there’s something about that approach which is appealing to me in some way. Like, “Don’t be so precious. Do your work however you want to do it. This is what I do,” so I’m hoping we can have some J Pat nuggets. Kelton Reid: All right. Well, we’re going to bring you back and get your take on the James Patterson course once you have completed it. Adam Skolnick: Yes. Kelton Reid: And I will pretend that I have also. Adam Skolnick: Then I can start in on the Dustin Hoffman course straight after that. Kelton Reid: I’m going right to Usher. Adam Skolnick: I’m going to go to the Usher, how to be an R&B crooner, right after that. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Think about it. With my — yeah, nevermind. Adam Skolnick: Nevermind. Actually, I want to take the LeBron James course. If I finish the LeBron James course, then I can be quite good at basketball. Kelton Reid: I think that’s probably a wrap on the MasterClass seq. Adam Skolnick: Oh, sorry. Kelton Reid: Adam, thank you so much for coming back on The Writer Files, doing this session of Writer Porn as a guest host. I really appreciate your time, and I look forward to rapping with you again in the future. Adam Skolnick: Thank you, man. I’ll be back with some J Pat nuggets of knowledge. Kelton Reid: Where can listeners find you at out there in the world? Adam Skolnick: AdamSkolnick.com, @AdamSkolnick on Instagram and Twitter. I think that’s it. Kelton Reid: All right, my friend. Adam Skolnick: There’s an article in the June issue of Playboy Magazine that’s out right now on free diving I think you’ll like. Kelton Reid: Excellent, and have a great time in the islands. Which islands? Adam Skolnick: Oh yes, in the Bermuda Triangle. Kelton Reid: Ooh, that sounds like another episode. Adam Skolnick: It sounds like a James Patterson novel. Kelton Reid: Okay, perfect. Use it. It’s all grist for the mill, my friend. All right, thanks, bud. Adam Skolnick: Cheers. Kelton Reid: Cheers. Thank you for tuning into the Writer Files. Now get back to work. I am going to take a long walk. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all of the show notes, or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM. Please subscribe to the show in iTunes. Leave us a rating or review, and help other writers to find us. You can always chat with me on Twitter, @KeltonReid. See you out there.

Writing can be a lonely sport, whether you re running a digital agency, or slaving away on the next great novel. In this week s episode we ll examine the writing process of James Chartrand, a prolific online publisher, copywriter, and digital entrepreneur. It s hard to settle on a specific title for my guest because James wears so many different hats — founder of the popular blog, web design, and copywriting agency Men with Pens — as well as an author, educator, and writing coach. James s many accomplishments have been chronicled in such high profile publications as Forbes, Newsweek, and The New York Times, and we got the chance to sit down and talk shop. In this 26-minute file James Chartrand and I discuss: How Wearing Many Hats Can Boost Your Productivity Why Simplicity Helps You Stay Focused The Cathartic Feeling of Crumpling Up Post-It Notes The Hardest Question in the World Why Good Ideas are Like Fishing The Difference Between Making Friends and Making Money Why Every Writer Should Have a Therapist Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Damn Fine Words James Chartrand on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! The Transcript How Copywriter and Entrepreneur James Chartrand (of Men with Pens) Writes Kelton Reid: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. These are the Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer s block. In this week s episode, we ll examine the writing process of James Chartrand, a prolific online publisher, copywriter, and digital entrepreneur. It s hard to settle on a specific title for my guest because James wears so many different hats. She s the founder of the award-winning blog, web design, and copywriting agency Men with Pens as well as an author, educator, and writing coach. James s many accomplishments have been chronicled in such high-profile publications as Forbes, Newsweek, and The New York Times. We got the chance to sit down and talk shop. In this file, James and I talk about how wearing many hats can boost your productivity, why simplicity helps you stay focused, the cathartic feeling of crumbling up Post-it notes, why good ideas are like fishing, the difference between making friends and making money, and why every writer should have a therapist. James, it is a pleasure to have you on The Writer Files finally. James Chartrand: Yeah, no kidding. I m excited to be here. It s cool to meet you and connect with you as well. I m really looking forward to this. Kelton Reid: Excellent! Well I say we dive into the file and get to the bottom of who you are and what your area of expertise is as a writer, if you care to expand on that. James Chartrand: I can. I m James Chartrand. I own Men with Pens, which has a top-10 blog for writers — well, so it s been named several times. I suppose that still counts. I also teach a writing course for business owners at Damn Fine Words. I ve been around for a decade in the industry. I guess I m known as a copywriter. I consider myself more of an entrepreneur who writes. I ve also been called a pro blogger. I ve written several books or ebooks — digital books, whatever you want to call them. I m a teacher — general help, advice. I do lots of things. I did some fiction too once upon a time. Kelton Reid: You wear a lot of hats. How Wearing Many Hats Can Boost Your Productivity James Chartrand: I do. I love my hats. The more hats, the wiser I become. Kelton Reid: Where can we find your writing? James Chartrand: You can find my writing at MenwithPens.ca. You can find me on Twitter, @MenwithPens. You can also find me at Damn Fine Words. I have a lovely newsletter there that I really love. I teach there as well, so I get to have one-on-one contact with a lot of people that become my students, which I really like. Kelton Reid: What are you working with presently? Can you share with us? James Chartrand: Everything. Everything and anything. Like any good entrepreneur, I have 40 projects on the go at any given time. I have three big ones right now. I have an ebook writing course inside Damn Fine Words. I m doing the 2.0 version of that. I m running through everything in cleaning it up and making sure that it s as tight as it can be. I m reworking my entire email marketing strategy at Damn Fine Words. I ve learned some new and cool things recently, so I want to test those out and experiment with them. I ve given myself a challenge of writing 52 posts for Men with Pens. I ve been a little slow on posting in 2014, so I want to get back to that and redevelop that habit of regular posting. Kelton Reid: So you re a little busy these days? James Chartrand: I m always busy. It keeps me out of trouble, eh? Kelton Reid: Of course it does. Let s dive into your productivity with all these balls that you re juggling. How much time per day would you say that you read or are doing research? James Chartrand: I read for pleasure about an hour a day. At the end of the night, just before bed, that s my pleasure-reading time. That s really important to me. It lets me unplug, and it gets me in touch with some really good fiction and some really good books that I have. In my day-to-day work, I m lucky I work maybe four- to six-hour days, so I pack a lot into those four to six hours. It s tough for me to say how much of that time is reading and how much of that time is working. I tend to multitask and do both at the same time. I know it s a terrible habit, but you can t break me of it. If I had to give it a number, I d say I guess I m reading maybe two of those hours and writing two to three hours. That comes up to about a five-hour work day. That would work. Kelton Reid: Before you sit down to write, do you have any pre-game rituals or practices to set the desk? Why Simplicity Helps You Stay Focused James Chartrand: I have a super-simple ritual. I wake up every morning at about 5:30, 6:00. I have my coffee. I do not write. I am just waking up at that time. At about 7:30, I get my kid ready for school, put her on the school bus. Then I just I sit down for a few minutes. I think about what I want to work on right after I get up. I get up. I have a smoke. I hit the keyboard, and I m off to the races. Kelton Reid: Do you have a peak productive time of day would you say and/or a specific locale where you get the most amount of writing done? James Chartrand: I just recently built a custom home — not by myself. I had a general contractor do it. That s not in my skill talents yet, but you never know. I have a beautiful office that I absolutely love. I ve made a point that this is the only place where I write. Its job is to make sure the writing gets done here. I ve trained myself that if I m going to write, I come into my office. My best hours for writing, I d say, are between 9:00 in the morning and 11:00. I get a lot of writing done there. I m awake, I m sharp, and my creativity is high. I can do a lot. When my work is done, when my writing s done, I m out of the office. This is the only place that I ve chosen to write for now. Kelton Reid: Are you someone who likes to listen to music while you re writing, or do you prefer silence? James Chartrand: Oh God no! Silence. Oh my goodness! I have to write with silence. I find any kind of noise very distracting. I ve tried music. It just doesn t work. I find it too distracting for me. It s like words upon words. If you listen to the lyrics, it distracts from what you re trying to do with the writing. I do sometimes keep the TV on very low so that I hear a murmur in the background. But it s more like white noise than anything. Kelton Reid: How many hours per day would you say that you re actually getting words onto a page, excluding email? James Chartrand: To be honest, I d say two. That block between 9:00 and 11:00 that is really highly focused writing. I dive down. I m in the zone. I really don t know what s going on around me until I come up for air. That seems to be about a two-hour period. Kelton Reid: Do you ever take a day off? James Chartrand: Weekends. I didn t use to. I used to work 18-hour days, until one day I fell asleep at my desk and hit my head. It hurt so much that I learned my lesson. Now I make sure that my evenings are off, and I definitely don t write a darn thing on Saturday and Sunday. I find it keeps me a little bit motivated. By constraining yourself and limiting yourself to not writing, you re that much more eager to get back to it on Monday. Kelton Reid: Have you ever come up against writer s block? James Chartrand: Oh my goodness! I don t actually believe in writer s block because that s turning it into a symptom, a thing, a virus you can catch, and that s not the case. Writer s block is usually your own thoughts and mentalities getting in your own way. Have I had that happen to me? Oh for goodness sakes! All the time. I ve had periods where I can t write at all. I ve had periods where I don t know what to write. I ve had periods where I don t feel good enough. I ve had periods where I hate writing because everything has to be so epic, and I just can t live up to that standard. It s all my own personal thoughts getting in the way. You deal with them, and you get rid of them, and you keep writing again. Kelton Reid: Let s talk about your workflow over there. What hardware or typewriter model are you presently using? James Chartrand: I have a beautiful 27-inch Mac that I bought about four years ago, so it s time to be replaced pretty soon. I have a 17-inch HP laptop in the kitchen just to catch up on email and stuff. Kelton Reid: Would you say that you re going to a specific software or a set of software that you use most for your kind of general workflow and writing? James Chartrand: Yeah, I use Word all the time. I just love Word. I m so familiar with it, and I can do anything with it. I just use that all the time as my go-to thing. I m a little bit of an old-school traditionalist, so I shun all these new bright, shiny tools. I have just started to learn that Evernote actually can be effective, so I m teaching myself how to use it a little bit. It s good for keeping lists, so I like that. Kelton Reid: I have heard that it is useful, and I m actually using it a little bit more and more each day, I find. James Chartrand: Yeah, it s one of those things where you have to consistently use it. Otherwise, you just don t because there s other ways that work just as well. Kelton Reid: Do you have any organizational hacks that you can share with us? The Cathartic Feeling of Crumpling up Post-It Notes James Chartrand: I don t. A pack of Post-it notes and a pen — keep several of them around the house in all kinds of strange places. When you re standing in the shower and you have that great idea, you can just reach out your hand and scribble something on your Post-it note and dry it off later. That s my go-to. It s Post-it notes all the way for the win. It s really satisfying when you finish something — you can crush them up and toss them into File 13. I get victory out of that. Kelton Reid: That is a cathartic feeling, isn t it? James Chartrand: I m all about the wins. Kelton Reid: I think if we could find you some waterproof Post-its that would be a fun gift to send over. James Chartrand: I should learn to write on the shower walls. I haven t realized yet that you can actually do that. I keep forgetting that you could just take your finger and scribble something there, and it would actually stay for a while. If it goes away, it will come back the next day on the next shower, but I haven t trained myself yet. Kelton Reid: Do you have any best practices for beating procrastination? James Chartrand: I try not to procrastinate because I realize that this is completely a first-world problem. You only procrastinate when you can procrastinate. I try to get honest with myself, and I fix my shit. If something s holding me back from doing what I m supposed to be doing, let s get real about it. Let s be honest. At the very least, be aware of what s going on in your own head. That s what I try to do all the time. That said, I do procrastinate, absolutely. My two best solutions are a couple of sessions of Candy Crush, Soda Saga — let s go for it. Start with something really small that would only take 15 minutes to do. I actually keep a list of tiny little tasks like that for those moments. I find that if you get started on one little thing, it s pretty easy to go to the next and the next and the next. Before you know it, you ve beaten it. Kelton Reid: I love that. How do you unplug at the end of a long day of writing? James Chartrand: A beautiful glass of red wine. That is my treat. Just one, mind you, just one. I used to have more, but let s not go there. I have my glass of wine. I go outside. I take a deep breath, and I feel grateful for what I have. I feel grateful for what I ve accomplished. I find that makes a really big difference in my productivity and in my outlook. Afterwards, it s just supper. It s sitting on the couch watching some mindless TV. Deadliest Catch and Survivor are the latest things that I m going to. It s brainless stuff, and that s about it. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/platform. Let s talk about creativity, and if you don t mind, your definition of creativity. The Hardest Question in the World James Chartrand: That s the hardest question in the world. Can I just say that? That was a killer. I thought about this all week, and the only thing I can come up with is for me, creativity means the ability to come up with something out of nothing in surprising ways. I thought about it over a wide range of artistic things or those times where I looked at someone s stuff and said, Oh my goodness! That s so creative. It s just because they surprised me so much — that they really had nothing to work with, and what they created ended up being so surprisingly good. That s the best way I can define it. Kelton Reid: In your line of work, I think creativity is probably pretty important to keeping those ideas fresh, no matter what type of project you re working on because again, you wear a lot of different hats. Do you find that you need some specific creative inspiration? Do you have a specific muse at the moment that s driving your creativity at all? James Chartrand: It s more of a motivation than an inspiration. It s definitely my business, my lifestyle. What I have achieved, I want to keep it. And I definitely want more of it. It s simply the fact that if I m not creative, I will not have what I have, so you d better keep it going. Another way that I do find a lot of my inspiration for my creative ideas is that I look to the real world. I go out on the streets. I look at people with brick-and-mortar businesses. I watch what people do in positions of customer service or in their jobs. There s a lot of analogies that can be drawn between real-world stuff and online stuff, or things not to do and things you should do, or different ways of applying certain marketing strategies. I get a lot of inspiration from that as well. I think my earlier posts reflect that quite a bit. Kelton Reid: Let me ask you another question about creativity. When you do you personally feel the most creative? Why Good Ideas Are Like Fishing James Chartrand: I don t know. I guess it s when I am not actually working to be creative, when it s not a job. I find it much more difficult to be creative when I m here and trying to be creative. It happens when you get away, and you re in some completely other environment having some other totally unrelated experience, like you re skiing in the winter and suddenly you get this most brilliant idea. I guess that s the way that ideas go. It s a bit like fishing. You just have to be in the right part of the lake to catch the big one. My best ideas have come when I m not actually trying for them and I m completely away from any possible manner of capturing these ideas on pen or paper, which is usually why that big fish I just caught slips away. Kelton Reid: What, to you, makes a writer truly great? James Chartrand: I have to look at the writers who make me forget that reality exists, the writers who make me forget that I am reading, that I m sitting in this chair, that I m looking at a screen, or that I m holding a book, or that there s a world around me. They re the people who make me forget my reality and bring me into theirs. That, to me, is just sublime. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Who are a few of your favorite authors at the moment? James Chartrand: I m going to list some fiction authors because I don t think I ve yet found any business authors that I really like. I ve found some business books that I like, but I m not sure if I like the authors themselves. I like Patrick Rothfuss both for his writing and for who he is as a person. He wrote The Name of the Wind, which got really popular and became a bestseller. I think he s brilliant all around. What he does and who he is and how he presents himself is fantastic. I love Anne Bishop. I don t know of her — I know her books. Her ability to create a world and bring characters to life is so simple and yet so effective. I ve found myself wanting to know her characters like people. I nearly cry when one of her books is over because I won t hear the stories of that person anymore. I also like Scott Lynch who wrote the Locke Lamora series. He has great characters as well, but he s so clever in everything he does. His storylines, his plots, — I can t even imagine how he comes up with these things. They re so complex and so beautiful. Those are my three. Kelton Reid: Can you share one of your own best-loved quotes with us? The Difference between Making Friends and Making Money James Chartrand: I might be hated for this one. It s a quote from Kevin O Leary of Dragon s Den and Shark Tank who is known to be an aggressive A-type. He said, I m not here to make friends. I m here to make money. I think we need to get in tune with that. I love that quote. It is so cold and unthinking, and cruel even, but it reminds me not to sit here and be a writer and sensitive and caring and generous and give the shirt off my back. I am here to run a business. It s a little bit of my guiding star when I find myself giving too much away or feeling like I m not taking care of myself, but I m taking care of other people. This one reminds me to get back to what I m doing here which is running a business. I am here to make money. You can be generous and you can be business-like together. It reminds of that an awful lot. Another one I really like is in the movie Hercules, the cartoon Disney one. It says, Being famous isn t the same as being a true hero. Zeus said that to Hercules. I like that one because it reminds me tone down the ego. Whoever is famous out there, it doesn t necessarily mean that they re true heroes. The same applies to me. No matter how famous I am, I have to remember to be a true hero at the end of the day. Kelton Reid: Let s do a couple fun ones. Who is your favorite literary character? James Chartrand: Locke Lamora. He is so witty and clever and charming and personable and silly and foolish and brilliant all at the same time. I want to be him. Kelton Reid: If you can choose one author, living or dead, for an all-expense-paid dinner to your favorite restaurant in the world, who would you choose? Where would you take them? James Chartrand: This question always make me laugh because I don t want to fly anywhere. I m an introvert. Actually going out to meet people is a big deal, and I d probably want to stay at home. Do I have to really go out for supper with these people? It would be fun to have a beer with Patrick Rothfuss one day just because he s so witty and sharp and clever. I wouldn t want to talk about anything else but whatever rips off our head. That would be a great casual conversation to have. Kelton Reid: Coo. So you can order takeout and have him over for a beer? James Chartrand: Bingo! He can fly here. Kelton Reid: That s right. We ll fly him in. Do you have a writer s fetish? I know a lot of writers do — I do, admittedly — somewhere hiding there in your office. James Chartrand: I don t. I have nothing. I ve got nothing, man. I made a room with a view. That doesn t really count. I have a picture of a fox behind me to remind me that I m a clever person. I have a little figurine of Sawyer from the television series Lost. If I press the button, he says, There s a new sheriff in town. Y all best get used to it. That s all I ve got! Kelton Reid: That s good enough for me. James Chartrand: I think I keep my fetishes for other areas of my life. Kelton Reid: Very good. James Chartrand: Oh that didn t sound good. I did not mean that. Kelton Reid: Back up. We ll edit that out, or we ll leave it in. Who or what has been your greatest teacher, would you say? James Chartrand: Adversity. I wouldn t be where I am today, I wouldn t be the person I am today, I wouldn t have learned the things I ve learned today without adversity. I hate it that you have to become a better person by living through hard times or difficult experiences, but I love it for everything it has taught me and everything it has made it. So — adversity. Kelton Reid: Can you offer any advice to fellow writers out there about how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? Why Every Writer Should Have a Therapist James Chartrand: I think cursors stop moving and ink stops flowing when people get too wrapped up in themselves and their problems. Truthfully, just give yourself a break. It doesn t matter if stuff is good enough or not. It doesn t matter if anybody likes it but yourself. Even if you don t like it — secretly, come on, you do. Give yourself a break about this. Get over yourself. Get over whatever s holding you back. Get a fix for it. Get a therapist. Every writer should have a therapist. Don t give a shit about it. Just do what you want to do, and nothing else really matters at the end of the day. I see so many getting caught up because they give too many shits in the wrong places. I think it s important to be selective with what you do and how you do it. Kelton Reid: Well put. Where can fellow scribes connect with you out there? James Chartrand: It would be great if people could connect with me on Twitter because I love a good conversation. Boy oh boy, we used to have some good ones on Twitter back in the days. I wish that was there now. It s really lacking. There s a lot of links. I m really trying to get back in touch with people. It s hard. I need people to chat with. If people want to get in touch with me, start a discussion. Say something smartass my way. I ll answer back. It ll be my pleasure. Game on. Bring it. You can find me at Men with Pens. Kelton Reid: Thank you so much for coming on to the Writer Files and teaching us a little bit about your process. It really has been a pleasure. James Chartrand: You are very welcome, and I m stoked to have been a guest. It was great to chat with you, and it was great to do this, so thank you. Thank you to everyone listening for putting up with my rambling. Kelton Reid: Absolutely, and it wasn t. It didn t sound like rambling on this side. It sounded like some really wise words. James Chartrand: There you go. Kelton Reid: Cheers. Writing can be a lonely sport, whether you re running a digital agency or slaving away on the next great novel. That s why it s always so enlightening to talk to other writers about how they deal with the stuff that lives in their heads. If you re not familiar with James Chartrand s fascinating story, you can find a great interview with her by Demian Farnworth on the Rough Draft podcast at RoughDraft.FM. I will link to that in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all the show notes, or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes. Leave us a rating or a review and help other writers to find us. You can find me on Twitter @KeltonReid. See you out there.

Coral-coiffed marketer and prolific online publisher Sonia Simone stopped by the show this week to share her writing secrets with us. Ms. Simone is co-founder and Chief Content Officer of Copyblogger Media as well as an educator, speaker, and the devious mastermind behind the podcast Confessions of a Pink-Haired Marketer. Sonia appeared in the written series over on Copyblogger.com and stopped by again to drop some writerly wisdom on us. You can also see Sonia Simone live at Authority Rainmaker, a carefully designed live educational experience that presents a complete and effective online marketing strategy to help you immediately accelerate your business. In addition to Ms. Simone you ll have the opportunity to see Dan Pink, Sally Hogshead, Ann Handley, punk legend Henry Rollins, and many other incredible speakers live. Get all the details at rainmaker.fm/event, and we look forward to seeing you in Denver, Colorado, May 13th, 2015. In this 18-minute file Sonia Simone and I discuss: Why You Should Read Outside Your Echo Chamber Sonia s Secret of Reading the Tea Leaves Writer s Block Vs. Deadlines Productivity for Flakes, Head Cases, and Other Natural Disasters The Fetishization of Creativity Sonia Admits Her Most Unwholesome Writer s Addiction Why the More You Care, the More You ll Write Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Here s How Sonia Simone Writes Copyblogger.com The Authority Community Are You a Talented Professional Writer? Read This Copyblogger Media Certified Content Marketers Confessions of a Pink-Haired Marketer Productivity for Flakes, Head Cases, and Other Natural Disasters Authority Intensive, May 13-15 in Denver, Colorado Sonia on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! The Transcript How Chief Content Officer Sonia Simone Writes Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. Coral-coiffed marketer and prolific online publisher Sonia Simone stopped by the show this week to share her writing secrets with us. Sonia is cofounder and chief content officer of Copyblogger Media as well as an educator, speaker, and devious mastermind behind the podcast Confessions of a Pink-Haired Marketer. Sonia appeared in the written series over on Copyblogger.com and stopped by again to drop some writerly wisdom on us. On this week’s episode, Sonia and I will chat about why you should read outside your echo chamber; Sonia’s secret of reading the tea leaves; productivity for flakes, head cases, and other natural disasters; and why the more you care, the more you’ll write. Welcome back to The Writer Files, Sonia. Sonia Simone: It’s just lovely to be here, Kelton. Always good to hear your voice. Kelton Reid: Thank you so much for blessing us with your presence here on the Files. Listeners may not know or remember that you were on the written series before, but I’ll post a link to that in this show now so that they can find that. Let’s start talking about you, the author. For listeners and writers that don’t know who you are, who are you, and what is your area of expertise? Sonia Simone: My name is Sonia Simone, and I am the chief content officer of Copyblogger Media, which I kind of dig, because two years ago there was no such title as chief content officer. I think that’s kind of cool. I suppose you would say content is my area of expertise. I think more specifically, I have a knack for writing things that create some connection and resonance in other people and then teaching them how to be more awesome at the things they want to do, and more specifically, how to be more awesome at having a business and finding clients and keeping their sanity and all that good stuff. Kelton Reid: This might be a good time to mention that you are a podcaster as well and your show, Confessions of a Pink-Haired Marketer — awesome show, I love it — is over at Rainmaker.FM. The specific URL for that one is? Sonia Simone: I have an easy to remember one, which is PinkHairedMarketer.FM. Kelton Reid: Very cool. Over there, you deliver advice, encouragement, and the occasional rant from outside the drone of the marketing mainstream. I love it. Where else can we find your writing? Sonia Simone: I do show up a few times a month over at Copyblogger at the Copyblogger blog, always glad to connect with people there. A lot of my work these days is audio, the podcast but also audio interviews. I also do in-depth interviews in our community, Authority, which is a community of content marketers — really cool, smart folks. I spend a lot of my time there. Kelton Reid: I know it well. I guess we’ve covered exactly what you’re working on now. Do have any other big projects in the pipeline? Sonia Simone: I’m excited about this year, because we are returning to our roots in education. I am wrapping up a project with Brian Clark that’s a training for freelance writers on how to get a lot more clients and have better relationships with clients, how to deliver more services to clients. That is part of our Certified Content Marketer program. The minute that I’m done with that — actually before I’m quite done with it — we’ll be launching into a reboot of our teaching sales course, which is a course about building a business based on teaching people to do things. I find it endlessly hilarious that when I was an undergraduate and desperately wanted to go to grad school, I didn’t because I couldn’t see myself teaching for a living. Of course, now I teach for a living. I m going to be doing a lot more teaching this year, which is awesome. Kelton Reid: Exactly. Let’s talk about your productivity a bit. How much time per day do you read or do research? Why You Should Read Outside Your Echo Chamber Sonia Simone: That’s a good question. There are no days when I’m not reading at least two hours a day. It can go up from there depending on what I’m working on. Two to four, I would think. It’s a lot of time. I research for the projects that I’m working on professionally, but it’s also very important to me to have reading time in things that have nothing to do, or seemingly nothing to do, with the business. It’s just very important to me to keep putting things on my brain coming from other places, whether it’s a Terry Pratchett novel or an interesting piece of neuroscience or something that comes from outside my echo chamber. It s really important to me. Kelton Reid: Before you actually sit down and start to write — I’m assuming you sit, but I actually don’t know — do you have any pregame rituals or practices? Sonia s Secret of Reading the Tea Leaves Sonia Simone: I have to have some kind of a caffeine-free tea. I alternate between a couple of teas that are important. I think the words are apparently somewhere in the tea bag, and I have to steep the tea and get the words out or they don’t like to come. Coffee works, but it doesn’t work as well as tea for some reason. Kelton Reid: You’re literally reading the tea leaves and then transcribing them? Sonia Simone: That’s right. That’s where I get my wisdom. Kelton Reid: Yeah, sure. What would you say is your most productive time of day and locale for writing? Sonia Simone: Mid-morning, which is weird one. I don’t know if a lot of people are good then, but midmorning. I have to be suitably caffeinated before I start the tea. Like a lot of people who are parents, I have pandemonium in my house until about 8:30 in the morning. Right after that, about 9:00, I get started on my focused productive time. Between that and lunchtime is when I really seem to get the most done. Afternoons are a total dead zone for me, so I usually work out. Kelton Reid: Do you like to listen to music or do you prefer silence while you’re writing? Sonia Simone: It has to be very silent. I can’t have music. Lisa Barone, in her Writer Files, had a great rain — like the sounds of rain. Sometimes I kind of dig that, but usually it’s just dead silence. Kelton Reid: I love that. She uses some apps that do coffee shop noises or rain. Yeah, I do like the rain one, for sure. How many hours a day do you spend writing, excluding email? I know that you do a lot of email too. Sonia Simone: There’s a lot of email. I think I should be able to count the email. It varies a lot. I always write. I write every day. I write something every day. Some days it could literally be 20 minutes, and some days it can be three or four hours. I would say probably average, working on some actual project, it’s probably an hour to two hours. It varies a lot, and also it depends. Some days are heavy audio content days. That’s a 20-minute day. I’ll spend 20 minutes writing a script and then more of my time actually recording it. Kelton Reid: Do you believe in a writer’s block? Writer s Block Vs. Deadlines Sonia Simone: I believe in deadlines. If I don’t have deadlines, it’s not just writer’s block. It’s just nonexistent. I have to have something I’m aiming for. I think it hits people. It doesn’t hit me because I’ve always got a deadline. Kelton Reid: Let’s talk some about your workflow. What hardware or typewriter model are you presently clacking away on over there? Sonia Simone: Did you just put that typewriter in there just for Robert Bruce? Kelton Reid: I did, yes. Sonia Simone: I use a rather elderly MacBook Air. I think it’s the most perfect writer’s device ever created. It is getting old and slow and tired, and I don’t ever want to get rid of it. I don’t want to replace it with another one either. I love this machine. Kelton Reid: Do you have some software that you use most for your writing and general workflow? Sonia Simone: Almost exclusively, I write in Text Editor. I don’t want any dancing baloney when I’m trying to get writing done. I keep things as minimal as possible. If it’s really rough, if I’m really struggling, I will go to pen and paper. Kelton Reid: Do you have any methods for staying organized that you want to drop on us? Productivity for Flakes, Head Cases, and Other Natural Disasters Sonia Simone: I did a full, rather confessional podcast on this. The title of the podcast was Productivity for Flakes, Head Cases, and Other Natural Disasters if that gives you some indication. Kelton Reid: Yes. Yes, please. Sonia Simone: How do I stay organized? I have two modes. I have things that I am extremely crisp about, for example, producing the podcast. If I’m not very crisp and I don’t have a very, very well-defined system, then it’s a disaster. Those are my two. It’s either got to be totally on, or it’s totally off. I have all manner of things. The main thing for me is to keep everything visible. For example, for my podcast, I have a one-sheeter that has the recorded episodes, the episodes that I’m going to record, when I’m going to record them, have they been uploaded to the production team, all that stuff. I can see it at a glance because I can’t keep anything in my head for five seconds anymore. Kelton Reid: Do you have any secrets for beating procrastination? Sonia Simone: Yeah. Wait until you’re just out of your mind with panic on a deadline. That works for me. Kelton Reid: How do you unplug at the end of a long day of writing? Sonia Simone: My favorite way to unplug — some of you who have connected with me on social media know this — I love nothing more than to sit down with my nine-year old, almost 10-year old and play a nice hour of Minecraft. It is my favorite thing right now to just veg out and forget all my troubles. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. Let’s talk about creativity now. Can you define creativity in your own words? The Fetishization of Creativity Sonia Simone: I think that we fetishize creativity, and we make it into something that only some professional cast of honored creatives can do. I think anytime you bring something into the world that hasn’t been here before, you have been creative. That could be a pie. It could be a sweater. It could be a Facebook post, especially if it’s a Facebook post that maybe reaches out to a friend or somebody and helps them with something. I think we get very high-falutin about creativity. All humans are creative. We’re a creative species. We’re always bringing forth new and interesting things. I think we should get over ourselves a little bit about it. Kelton Reid: Who or what is your muse at the moment? Sonia Simone: Hmm, my muse at the moment I’m very pragmatic about these things. My muse at the moment is an upcoming vacation that I need to get some money in the bank for. That’s my muse. Isn’t that awful? It’s terrible, isn’t it? Kelton Reid: It’s perfect. What do you mean? When do you feel the most creative? Sonia Simone: I feel the most creative when I feel the most in balance. I feel very creative when I’m getting plenty of exercise. The more walking I do, the easier the words will come and the more they seem to be worth reading or listening to. I need to have things going pretty well. My family has to be in good shape. My sleep needs to be in good shape. When everything is in a good balance, then the creativity seems to come a little more easily. Kelton Reid: What makes a writer great? Sonia Simone: Moving other people makes a writer great, moving them to something worthwhile. Kelton Reid: Do you have a few favorite authors at the moment? Sonia Simone: Oh, yeah, I always have lots of favorite writers. I’m really enamored of a book by a guy named Jonathan Haidt. He wrote a book called The Righteous Mind, which has really been ping-ponging around my brain for a couple months now. I am on a jag with Terry Pratchett right now. I am just going through Terry Pratchett novels, and thankfully there’re a billion of them so I can satisfy my jones. Those are two people. Italo Calvino is one of my enduring favorites. Often, if I need a little inspiration, I’ll actually sit down and copy out a couple of pages of one of his books. It’s kind of almost a writerly meditation. Kelton Reid: Yeah, his stuff is powerful. Love it. Sonia Simone: Yeah. Kelton Reid: Can you share a best-loved quote? Sonia Simone: Can I swear? Kelton Reid: Of course. We’ll bleep it out. Sonia Simone: My best-loved quote is something that a friend of mine — she’s a romance writer. She writes as Ann Stuart, and her name is Krissie Ohlrogge. A long time ago she said this to me, and this has been my marching orders for 15, 20 years. It’s on my corkboard right now. She said to me in her wise way, “**** it out, press on.” That’s my favorite quote. Kelton Reid: Let’s do a couple of fun ones. Who is your favorite literary character? Sonia Simone: Commander Vimes from the Pratchett novels. Kelton Reid: If you could choose one author, living or dead, for an all-expense paid dinner to your favorite restaurant in the world — I have a feeling it’s in Italy — who would you choose? Sonia Simone: Let’s see. Unfortunately, I think most of the writers you love the best are not very good company. I bet Calvino would be an exception. I would love to take Italo Calvino to dinner. Kelton Reid: I said Italy, but I probably meant France. Sonia Simone: There’s good options in both places. Kelton Reid: Who or what has been your greatest teacher? Sonia Simone: My family has been my greatest teacher because taking care of my family, in a multitude of ways, has pushed me to do things I never thought I was going to be able to do. Kelton Reid: Do you have a writer’s fetish? Sonia Admits Her Most Unwholesome Writer s Addiction Sonia Simone: I have my fancy fetishy writer tea. I do have a writer’s fetish! I think my fountain pens would qualify as a writer’s fetish. I have an unwholesome and longstanding addiction to fountain pens and good paper. I have a bit of an issue with proliferating pens and inks. I have two drawers full of ink. I have an entire shelf of fancy notebooks and more pens than I’m willing to admit to. Kelton Reid: Can you offer any advice to fellow writers on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? Why the More You Care, the More You ll Write Sonia Simone: Know who you’re talking to. Know who you’re writing for. Don’t give up on helping that person and care about that person. The more you care about the person you’re writing for, the more writing you’ll do. Kelton Reid: Where can writers connect with you out there? Sonia Simone: Two places I would absolutely love to hang out with people. One of them is just on Twitter @SoniaSimone, and the other is on the podcast, where I would just dearly love to see your comments and questions and anything else. You can actually ask me questions, and I will answer them on the podcast. That is PinkHairedMarketer.FM. Kelton Reid: I’m going to see you very shortly at Authority Rainmaker here in Denver and actually will probably see you a couple of days after this goes live. Sonia Simone: Yes, indeed, yes. I m looking forward to it. For those who don’t know, Kelton and I could fairly easily walk to one another’s houses, so of course, we see each other three times a year at company meetings out of state. Kelton Reid: Exactly. I’ll drop the information about the conference, which will be happening very shortly. I’m really looking forward to hearing you speak there. Sonia Simone: I’m looking forward to it too. It’s going to be exciting. It’s a fun event. It’s an awesome event for making connections. I’m excited. Kelton Reid: Very good. See you out there. Sonia Simone: All right. Take care. Kelton Reid: You can see Sonia Simone live at Authority Rainmaker, a carefully designed live educational experience that presents a complete and effective online marketing strategy to help you immediately accelerate your business. In addition to Ms. Simone, you’ll have the opportunity to see Dan Pink, Sally Hogshead, Ann Handley, and punk legend Henry Rollins as well as many other incredible speakers live. Get all the details at Rainmaker.FM/Event. We look forward to seeing you in Denver, Colorado, on May 13th, 2015. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all the show notes or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by WriterFiles.FM, and please subscribe to the show on iTunes. Leave us a rating or a review, and help other writers find us. You can find me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

In this episode I ve invited digital marketing pioneer Ann Handley to chat with me about her writing process. She s a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, brilliant keynote speaker, the world s first Chief Content Officer, and a prolific digital content creator. Ann Handley appeared on the written interview series last year and stopped by again to share her methods of madness with us. You can also see Ann live at Authority Rainmaker, a carefully designed live educational experience that presents a complete and effective online marketing strategy to help you immediately accelerate your business. Ms. Handley will be speaking about creating content that makes a difference for your business objectives by showing you how to create content that is empathetic, useful, and inspired. In addition to Ann, you ll have the opportunity to see Dan Pink, Sally Hogshead, punk legend Henry Rollins, and many other incredible speakers live. Get all the details at rainmaker.fm/event, and we look forward to seeing you in Denver, Colorado May 13th, 2015. In this 28-minute file Ann Handley and I discuss: Everybody Writes: An ‘Elements of Style’ for the Digital Age The Art of Productive Procrastination Why Your Writer’s Block May Be a Research Problem How Hard Deadlines Help Writers Ship Why You Have to Find a Way to Shape Your Ideas for Sharing The Secret to What Makes a Good Writer Great Why Your Audience Is Key to Effective Writing Proof that Paper Books are Pure Writer Porn The Value of Patience Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes Everybody Writes by Ann Handley Content Rules: How to Create Killer Blogs, Podcasts, Videos, Ebooks, Webinars (and More) That Engage Customers and Ignite Your Business Ann Handley on Entrepreneur.com Trello E.B. White Seth Godin on The Writer Files AnnHandley.com Authority Intensive, May 13-15 in Denver, Colorado Ann Handley on Twitter Kelton Reid on Twitter Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! The Transcript How Bestselling Author Ann Handley Writes Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are the Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. In this episode, I’ve invited digital marketing pioneer Ann Handley to chat with me about her writing process. She’s a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, a brilliant keynote speaker, the world’s first chief content officer, and a prolific digital content creator. Ann Handley appeared on the written interview series last year and stopped by again to share her methods of madness with us, including her art of productive procrastination, why your writer s block may be a research problem, how hard deadlines help writers to ship, and the secret to what makes a good writer truly great. Let’s get into the file of Ann Handley. Welcome, Ann. Ann Handley: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here with you today. Kelton Reid: Who are you, and what is your area of expertise as a writer? Ann Handley: I am Ann Handley. I am the world’s first Chief Content Officer as far as I know, and no one’s challenged me on that yet. I am the author of the bestselling book Everybody Writes, the co-author of Content Rules, which is also one of the bestselling books on content marketing, and the chief content officer of MarketingProfs. Kelton Reid: What are you working on right now? Ann Handley: What am I working on right now? I’m kind of in between projects right now. I was talking to somebody last week who said, “Everybody Writes is now six months old. What are you working on next?” I was like, “Are you kidding me?” My heart and soul went into that book. I need to have a period of rest and recovery before I can think about doing any other big project like that, because it takes a lot out of me. Right now, I am just working on my ongoing projects. I write a monthly column for Entrepreneur magazine. I blog regularly at my own site, AnnHandley.com. I do some writing for MarketingProfs, and I’m also working with folks here, folks internally at MarketingProfs, on developing a workshop based on Everybody Writes. All that stuff is keeping me pretty busy. Everybody Writes: An Elements of Style for the Digital Age Kelton Reid: I will just add that I love Everybody Writes, and it feels like kind of an Elements of Style for the digital age. I’m a huge fan. Ann Handley: Oh good, thank you. Yeah, as you know, that’s exactly how I hoped it would be embraced, and I’m really gratified to feel that. For the most part, I get super great feedback on it, so that’s awesome. Thank you for saying that. Kelton Reid: We’ll drop that in the show notes, of course, for people to find. Let’s chat a little bit about your productivity if you care to share. How much time, would you say, per day do you read or do research? Ann Handley: Yeah, I was thinking about this. I think I do an inordinate amount of research on everything that I put out there. I think my background as a journalist instilled that in me. That’s true whether I’m writing a column, whether I’m writing a blog post. Pretty much anything sensitive I’m putting together, I do a lot of research. I’d say for every hour of writing, I probably do between two and three hours of research on whatever it is I’m putting together. I spend a lot of time wandering around back alleys and down corridors that I don’t know when they’ll end to try to figure out, first of all, as much as I can about a subject, and then how I feel about it. It does take me a long time to actually sit down to physically write because I spend a lot of time researching what’s already been said and researching any information I can find. Kelton Reid: Before you start to write, do you have any pre-game rituals or practices that kind of get you into the mode? The Art of Productive Procrastination Ann Handley: I am a terrible procrastinator, so I spend a lot of time not writing before I start writing, which sounds funny, but it’s so true. I can spend many, many hours kind of distracting myself. So I’ll eat all the snacks in the house. I’ll wash and fold all the laundry. I’ll answer all my work e-mails. I’ll do every other task that’s in front of me that’s on my to-do list before I’ll actually sit down to write, because I’m always looking for ways to not write. I spend a lot of time distracting myself from actually writing before I write. Kelton Reid: That sounds familiar. Do you find that you have a most productive time of day and/or locale for getting into the flow? Ann Handley: Yeah. Right now, I am speaking to you from my tiny house, which I built in my backyard. It’s kind of a writer s studio — or it is a writer s studio, essentially. It’s very, very simple inside. The only thing I have in here is an Internet connection and electricity and a heater, which you heard before we started recording, which is incredibly loud. My ritual is to come in here. This feels like almost sacred space to me in a way, which I know sounds kind of goofy, but it really feels that way. It’s the place where I feel the most creative. In terms of timing, I would like to say that I spend every morning writing, and when I’m working on a big project that’s absolutely true. But when I’m not working on a big project, like I am right now, I tend to spend my morning sort of easing into the day, so goofing around on Twitter, or looking at Facebook, or sort of warming up through writing small things. That’s not true when I’m working on a big project, but right now that’s definitely true. Kelton Reid: Do you listen to music or do you prefer silence while you’re writing? Ann Handley: No, I hate listening to anything while I’m writing. I really, really need silence. If anybody is home and breathing in my house, I ask them to stop because I find it really distracting. Right now as I’m talking to you, the guys just came up to mow the lawn, and I’m a little bit annoyed because after we hang up I was planning on writing, so I don’t know how this is going to work. I might have to shoo them away. I like total silence. Kelton Reid: Do you find that you’re putting in a certain number of hours, excluding that kind of warm-up stuff? Are you disciplined, in other words? Ann Handley: Yes, I do think I’m disciplined. I have a strong work ethic. I have a feeling that I will never disappoint anybody who is relying on me for something, whether that’s a presentation, or an article, or a book, any of those things. I’d say that if I’m not working on something, it’s probably an hour or two a day that I spend writing, either things for work or just for me personally. If I’m working on a project that’s much lengthier than that, I tend to work through an entire weekend, for example. I will easily spend probably 20 hours in a weekend just writing and then during the week anywhere between five and six. I get up early, and then I’ll do my job, and then I’ll write after my job. It’s a much more aggressive schedule, I guess, which is in part why I don’t relish jumping back into it too soon. Kelton Reid: In your book, you do talk about kind of the writer-as-athlete metaphor and working those muscles and staying limber. Do you write every day? Ann Handley: Yes, I absolutely write every day. Kelton Reid: Do you believe in writer s block? Why Your Writer s Block May Be a Research Problem Ann Handley: I don’t, actually, and I talk about this in Everybody Writes. I quote a journalist — and I’m totally blanking on his name right now. I should have looked that up. I quote a journalist who says, “My father never got truck driver s block,” or “my father never got plumber s block,” and no one ever gets ‘speaking block,’ for example. I do think that writing is the same way. I think that writing is nothing more than a way of communicating. I do believe in procrastination, as I just said, but I don’t believe that writer s block is a real thing. That said, there are times when I’ll sit down to write, and I’ll think, “I don’t know what to say.” Usually, that’s more of a thinking and a research problem than it is an actual writing problem, so that’s typically a sign to me that I need to do some more thinking about something, or do some more research before I think about what my own particular take on something is going to be, you know what I mean? Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Ann Handley: Yeah. Kelton Reid: Why don’t we get into talking a little bit about your workflow? What hardware or typewriter model are you presently using? Ann Handley: Does anybody actually use a typewriter model to write? Kelton Reid: I have no idea. Ann Handley: Wow, that’s interesting. I use a MacBook Pro. I’m waiting for them to bring back the 17-inch. So far, it’s been a pretty long wait, because this 17-inch MacBook Pro that I have, it’s my life. It seems like Apple is going smaller and smaller, and I don’t think they’re going to bring it back, so I am a little distraught over it, honestly. Kelton Reid: Do you have special software? Do you have a set of software that you use most for writing and your general workflow? Ann Handley: I use Word, and when I’m writing a big project like a book, I’m a huge fan of Scrivener for that just because it’s such great tool to help you organize your writing more than anything else. Otherwise, I’m pretty simple in my tastes. Just a simple Word doc is really fine for me. Kelton Reid: How do you stay organized? Are you using Evernote, for instance, or are you traditional — note cards and sticky notes? Ann Handley: I will tell you, this is my weak spot. I am terrible at Evernote. I’ve tried it, I don’t know, six or seven times now. Every time, I feel like I’m going to make a commitment to it. I’m going to make it work, and I don’t know — I just can’t. I don’t connect with it. I’m like allergic to it or something. It’s just not for me. I’m very old school in the way that I keep myself organized in terms adding to my internal editorial calendar. I keep a written list in a simple Moleskine notebook. I am trying to use Trello consistently as a way to keep an editorial calendar of myself and keep my projects aligned, and as a visual of what it is that my month looks like, for example. But as I said, this is completely my weak spot, so I’m sort of casting in the dark a little bit with this one. Kelton Reid: I definitely lean pretty heavily on Trello, so I’ll drop that into the show notes as well. Ann Handley: Do you? Okay, that’s cool. How Hard Deadlines Help Writers Ship Kelton Reid: I know we talked about procrastination before. Do you have some best practices for beating procrastination when it comes down to the wire? Ann Handley: Honestly, I lean into it. I lean into procrastination pretty hard, and then ultimately, it’s always my work ethic that saves me. I think the most important thing is to show up, to ship when you say you’re going to ship, to show up when you say you’re going to, and not to disappoint people. People start to lose faith in you after a while if you do that consistently. I never miss a deadline, but I will say that I do go right down to the wire, and the only thing that ultimately saves me is that I have to get my ass in gear and make sure it happens. Kelton Reid: At the end of a long day of writing and overcoming procrastination, how do you unplug? Ann Handley: Wow, it feels weird to think of my day as hard days. My life is relatively soft, really, when I think about it. I think about my grandparents, for example. They had hard days. My grandfather worked all day at an asbestos mill, and then came home and took off his clothes and breathed in all that horrible stuff, so that’s a hard day to me. I feel like my days are relatively soft by comparison, but what I do is probably the same as a lot of people. I end the day by taking my dog for a walk, typically. I walk her in the fields, and it brings me such joy to watch her run through the fields, and it sort of melts any of that stress away. Then I make a nice dinner for my family. We eat together. Then, usually I’m obsessed with something on Netflix, so that caps my day. Pretty boring, I know, but that’s when I’m home but I do travel quite a bit, so I really do treasure those moments when I’m around. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.fm/Platform. Let’s talk about your creativity. Can you define creativity in your own words? Why You Have to Find a Way to Shape Your Ideas for Sharing Ann Handley: I think creativity is really about finding a way to share your own ideas with the world, or maybe not share, but finding a way to shape the ideas that you share with the world. I think that’s important, and I think it can take place in whatever your art is. For some of us, it’s writing. For others, it’s a different kind of art, but I think that’s really what it is. I think it’s about really shaping your ideas and sharing them with the world. Kelton Reid: Do you feel like you have a creative muse at the moment? Ann Handley: What inspires me is reading really good writing. You asked me earlier about how I end my day, and one thing that I was just thinking is that after Netflix, after all of that stuff, I always end the day by reading a really good piece of writing, and typically that’s fiction, or it may be some creative non-fiction from the New Yorker or something like that. I’m always really inspired by reading incredibly good writing. Sometimes it makes me anxious, the sense that, “God, I wish I wrote that,” but it really is inspiring to me to read people who can take you on a journey with their words. I don’t think I have a specific muse as much as many, many muses who speak to me in different ways. Kelton Reid: When do you feel the most creative? Ann Handley: I think when something really strikes a nerve in me. There’s almost a sense of, “I can’t not say something.” When something is kindled inside of me, I almost feel like it ignites, and I have to figure out a way to get it out. Otherwise, it literally will consume me. That’s where my best ideas come from. We were talking earlier about Everybody Writes, and that book really did come out of this feeling that I can’t not write it. It’s like, I didn’t know what else to do because it was just something that I felt had to be said, and I let it kindle for a long time inside of me before I was like, “Alright, I just need to do this.” I think that’s actually the only reason to write a book, is because you can’t not write it. But I also think that’s almost the only reason not to do any kind of writing. It’s when you can’t not say something — that’s when you should say it. The Secret to What Makes a Good Writer Great Kelton Reid: What makes a writer great in your opinion? Ann Handley: I think it s a realization that you are never really the best writer you can be. That’s something that you’re always evolving into. I almost feel a little sheepish sometimes when I think of myself as a writer when somebody calls me a writer, because it feels like I’m still working on that. It’s like when someone says to me, “You’re a great speaker.” It’s like, “Really?” Because I feel like I’m just evolving that. I think that’s what makes writing and speaking and communicating so interesting to me, because I don’t feel like I’m ever going to be a master at any of that, and I think that’s true of the best writers. You look at Hemingway’s early stuff and then you look at his later stuff, and it’s very different. It s the same for any great artist in whatever their media or medium is. I think this willingness to evolve is really what makes a great writer, makes a good writer great. Kelton Reid: Evolution. Ann Handley: Yeah. Kelton Reid: Do you have a few favorite authors at the moment? Ann Handley: Yeah. I have some writers who I’ve read every single thing that they’ve written, and I’m scared that something will happen to them and they won’t produce any more work. That writer for me is David Sedaris, which is funny because everybody knows David as a humorous writer, but he’s also a really great writer. He’s incredibly soulful. I think he’s very talented, and he’s almost sold short sometimes I think as a humorist. It almost feel like it diminishes his work, but I think his work is really, really subtle and really wonderful. He’s probably my all-time favorite author. I also am a huge fan of E.B. White, not just because of the Elements of Style, but also, I’ve read everything he’s ever written, from his children’s books like Charlotte’s Web, and Trumpet of the Swan, and all that kind of stuff, all the way up to his letters. He’s somebody that I really love. I feel very connected to him, and I think he’s an amazing writer — or was an amazing writer. Joan Didion is another favorite of mine. In the business world, I read almost everything that Seth Godin writes because I think he’s a really brilliant and interesting mind. Right now I’m reading a book of short stories by Amy Bloom, and I really love the way that she tells a story as well. Like I said, it’s almost anybody. It’s almost whatever book I’m reading now is my favorite book because if I don’t love the book that I’m reading, then I don’t keep reading it. Right now I would say it’s Amy Bloom, but I wouldn’t say she’s necessarily the one for the long term. My heart belongs to David and to Joan and to E.B., but Amy, right now, she’s a fantastic writer. Kelton Reid: I know that Everybody Writes is just chock full of what I call ‘writer porn.’ It’s got so many great quotes in there, but can you share a best-loved quote for the podcast? Why Your Audience Is Key to Effective Writing Ann Handley: Yeah, I have two. One is … I’m not sure if it’s actually in Everybody Writes or not. I’ll have to think about that. I’ll have to go back and look at it. But it’s, “Write with the door closed; edit with the door open.” It’s a quote by Stephen King, and what I love about that quote is that what’s inherent in there is that you write for yourself. You just sort of barf it up, and you get it all out, and then you write with your audience in mind. You almost swap places with your reader at that moment. That’s a thing that I think if any writer keeps in the back of their minds — and by writer, I mean anybody who writes — I think it ultimately makes your writing so much better. Because you really are putting the audience first, which makes you respect the audience. It makes you think of, “I know what I’m saying, am I communicating it clearly?” I think that is ultimately, especially in the business world, the biggest key to really effective writing. My second one is in a completely different realm, by Eleanor Roosevelt, and it’s something that I live all the time, and she says, “Do one thing every day that scares you.” I do something maybe not every day, but pretty often. I do many things that scare me all the time, and so I think of that a lot. My first impulse when anybody asks me to do anything is typically to say no. Maybe not this podcast — I was actually okay with this, but to travel to an event because I hate to fly, to do anything that puts you slightly outside of your comfort zone, my feeling is always to say no first. If I can just sit with that and then remember that Eleanor Roosevelt quote, I — more times than not — will ultimately opt in to do it. Kelton Reid: Let’s do a few fun ones just for kicks. Who is your favorite literary character? Ann Handley: A lot of my favorite literary characters are from my childhood, essentially. They’re people that I feel like I grew up with in a way. Way back when, my first, probably my first favorite literary character was Laura Ingalls Wilder. When I was a little girl, I read all of those books. There was some tell-tale signs that I was going to be that kind of obsessive-compulsive reader, and so I read all of her things. She’s not quite a literary character because she’s a real person, but there’s sort of this literary character-esqueness to especially her younger books. Encyclopedia Brown was another one. Do you know the Encyclopedia Brown books at all? Kelton Reid: Of course. Ann Handley: Yeah, I always wanted to be him. I always wanted to be this super clever kid who functioned outside of normal childhood who did these amazing things. He almost had a super power. Almost any character invented by Roald Dahl, another one of my favorite authors, so Willy Wonka and Matilda, any of his characters, I think, are really brilliant and really different. Kelton Reid: Do you have a writer s fetish? I know it’s kind of an interesting question because ‘fetish’ has a couple different meanings. One of my fetishes is vintage typewriters, as I mentioned in an earlier episode, but I think I also have others that are weirder and more esoteric that I kind of keep around my office, but I won’t mention what they are for fear that I’ll be ostracized. Ann Handley: Oh, they’re real fetishes then, huh? Kelton Reid: Yes. Ann Handley: I have a couple of vintage typewriters. I have three, and they’re right behind me in my tiny house right now. Proof that Paper Books are Pure Writer Porn Ann Handley: I think my biggest fetish, if you can even call it that, are paper books. I feel sad that ebooks are taking over paper books. I love the heft, the feel, the smell, the experience of paper books. I can count on one hand, literally, the number of times I’ve read an ebook, and half the time, after I’ve read an ebook, if I like it, I’ll go out and buy the paper version of it, because I need it. It’s like I need to have it on my shelf. They become my friends, which I know sounds incredibly weird, but since we’re talking about fetishes, what the hell? Kelton Reid: Who or what has been your greatest teacher? Ann Handley: My parents, for sure. They gave me all the freedom to be whoever I wanted to be, and they also gave me a really fantastic work ethic that I mentioned before. That came from them. My second greatest teacher, I think, has been the many, many, many mistakes that I’ve made. I get this question a lot: “Which mistake do you regret the most?” The answer is zero. I regret no mistakes, only because I’ve often learned a lot from any big mistakes that I made. Sometimes it’s saying no to opportunities, as I mentioned previously, that used to be my default answer: saying no to opportunities. Sometimes it was just being young and stupid about something. They re mistakes that we’ve all made, but they’ve taught me so much, ultimately. My big effort in my life is to let my children make those mistakes too. My children are now teenagers, and my son is a young adult in his 20s. It’s like I want them to make those mistakes, too. It’s so hard as a parent not to control it, to warn them away, but at the same time, I think they need to make their own mistake because it is your greatest teacher. I think mistakes are your greatest teacher. Kelton Reid: On that note, can you offer advice to fellow writers on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? The Value of Patience Ann Handley: Patience. I think patience is the biggest thing. It can feel like you just want things to happen fast. I think it takes a while to find your voice. At least it did for me. You or your listeners may be a faster learner than I ever was, but I think it takes a while to really hone your voice. I don’t think you’ll ever stop, so I think it s just giving yourself permission to take longer than you think it’s going to and enjoy the process. It’s easy to say that because while you’re in it, sometimes, it can feel really horrible, but I think it’s wonderful. When I go back and read something I wrote five or six years ago and I can see the difference — like I wouldn’t say things in quite that same way — it really does make me appreciate where I’m at now and my evolution as a writer. So I think it s giving yourself permission to be a patient person. Kelton Reid: Thank you so much for your patience and wisdom and honesty. Where can fellow scribes connect with you out there? Ann Handley: You can find me at AnnHandley.com. It’s a site where I write most often about content and marketing but I also write about my life, or in person I will be at Copyblogger’s Authority Intensive 2015, which I am super excited about. It’s one of my top events of the year. If you’re going to be there, I’d love to meet you there as well. Kelton Reid: I will also be there, and I really look forward to hearing you speak. I don’t know if I can say the name of your presentation now, but I know that Ann is going to be dropping some wisdom for us, and it’ll be outstanding regardless of what the name of it is. Thank you so much. Ann Handley: Thank you. Kelton Reid: In the words of Ms. Handley herself, Think before you ink. You can see Ann Handley live at Authority Rainmaker, a carefully designed live educational experience that presents a complete and effective online marketing strategy to help you immediately accelerate your business. Ann will be speaking about creating content that makes a difference for your business objectives by showing us how to create content that is empathetic, useful, and inspired. In addition to Ann, you’ll have the opportunity to see Dan Pink, Sally Hogshead, punk legend Henry Rollins, and many other incredible speakers live. Get all the details at Rainmaker.fm/event. For more episodes of The Writer Files and all the show notes, or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by at WriterFiles.fm, and please subscribe to the show on iTunes. Leave us a rating or a review, and help other writers find us. You can find me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers. See you out there.

Have you ever wondered how prolific writers summon vast stores of creativity without seemingly breaking a sweat? I would like to introduce you to a guest segment where I enlist the help of a neuroscientist to give us a tour of The Writer s Brain.   I ve invited research scientist Michael Grybko — of the Department of Psychology at the University of Washington — to help me define creativity from a scientific standpoint. He will help us to pinpoint where exactly in the brain creative ideas come from, decide if you can teach an old writer new tricks, and test the theory that writer s brains are similar to professional athletes. In this 22-minute file Michael Grybko and I discuss: How Science is Expanding Our Definition of Creativity Why Memory Plays Such a Big Part in Writing Don’t Take Your Typing Skills for Granted Where Creative Ideas Come From Can You Teach an Old Writer New Tricks? Why Staying Curious Is So Important to Creativity Are Prolific Writers Like Pro Athletes? Why “Write What You Know” Is Good Advice Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes This Is Your Brain on Writing Kelton Reid on Twitter Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! The Transcript How Neuroscientist Michael Grybko Defines Creativity Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers — from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid — writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer’s block. In this episode of The Writer Files, I’d like to introduce you to a segment where I enlist the help of a neuroscientist to give us a tour of the writer’s brain. I’ve invited research scientist Michael Grybko to come on the show and help us to define creativity from a scientific standpoint. To pinpoint where exactly in the brain creative ideas come from, decide if you can teach an old writer new tricks, and test the theory that writers’ brains are similar to professional athletes. Let me introduce Michael. Michael Grybko: My name is Michael Grybko. I’m a research scientist in the Department of Psychology at the University of Washington, Seattle. Kelton Reid: Thank you so much for jumping on The Writer Files to talk to us about a few pressing subjects. Michael Grybko: Thanks for having me. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. Let’s get into it. Just for starters, the Oxford English Dictionary defines ‘creativity’ simply as “the facility of being creative; ability or power to create.” That seems pretty straightforward, but you and I know that’s not quite as simple as that. Michael Grybko: Right, there’s a lot more going into creativity. Kelton Reid: Writers often equate creativity to some mystical jolt of inspiration from the gods. When I got my creative writing degree, there was always this deification of great writers of yore. I’m thinking specifically of Shakespeare of Hemingway. These figures of renown that were extremely prolific, creative to the point where we sometimes question if they’re real, I think. There’s a whole society of people in Great Britain that don’t think Shakespeare was a real person because he invented half of the English language. It doesn’t help that we pass around these urban legends about Jack Kerouac writing a novel in a weekend or the fact that David Foster Wallace wrote a book that was longer than War and Peace. I think as writers, as we’re facing the blinking cursor and wondering where that juice comes from, we’re wondering is it divine inspiration, is it methamphetamines, is it some supernatural jolt of electricity that’s bestowed on mortals? I guess I just want to turn to you, to science. How Science Is Expanding Our Definition of Creativity Michael Grybko: Science is asking some of these questions as well. Specifically, this is a topic that is being dealt with in neuroscience. We’re trying to answer the same question — what is creativity? There very much is a lot of evidence out there showing that this is just a function of our brains. This is a neurological process that’s going on. A lot of it so far can be explained that way. These aren’t some supernatural being or some black magic going on. Kelton Reid: They’re not? Michael Grybko: A lot of this creativity we can explain in just plain old brain function. Kelton Reid: Cool. So we can debunk some of the urban legends? Michael Grybko: Yeah. It is very intriguing. How did Shakespeare do what he did? Creativity as a whole, how did Bach create that much music? In science, we define ‘creativity’ as an idea that is novel, good, and useful. It’s a little broader than the Oxford Dictionary’s definition, where it’s just the ability to create, because that doesn’t really say much. You can create something and it’s not very useful or it just won’t work well. Then the novelty is very important in scientific thinking. Pooling from this wealth of knowledge we store in our brains and making connections between different ideas we have to solve a new problem, or create, write a new novel — that’s what science looks at when we study ‘creativity.’ Just to drive home the point, this is very much a function of the brain. There’s no need to invoke all that folklore into this. It’s our brains doing what they do. Kelton Reid: How much is memory involved in creativity? Why Memory Plays Such a Big Part in Writing Michael Grybko: That’s really the root of it. If you want to talk about creativity, it involves us using knowledge we’ve already gained and applying it in a situation that we may be unfamiliar with to resolve an issue or create something, make something. That’s a really good point. Memory is really key here. You can’t really talk about creativity without talking about memory and how we remember things, and how we use that knowledge in our everyday lives to get through the world, get through our days, and do all the tasks we do. It’s a good starting point to just review memory and how do we get knowledge, how do we remember things, and how do we store this information. This is a huge field in and of itself. There’s just volumes of literature out there on this. It’s very active. You’ll get a good idea just how the brain processes information. Kelton Reid: Cool. Michael Grybko: Yeah. We go through our day-to-day lives, and we’re constantly bombarded by information. I think we take this for granted a lot of times. All the sights, sounds, smells — all the sensory input, it’s just picked up by the different sensory systems, ears, eyes, what have you. All this information is converted into electrical chemical signals. This is the language of the brain, these electrical chemical signals. We’re taking all this real-world input and turning it into a signal that the brain can use. This is called ‘encoding,’ this first step. We’re just encoding all this information, just like a computer code. You need to type things into a computer a certain way so it’ll work. The information about the world we live in gets transferred in these electrical chemical signals, so our brain can use them. That’s the first part of memory, just gathering information and encoding it. Then that turns into short-term memory. Short-term memory really is important for creativity. Short-term memory would be like if your phone rings and you’re drinking a cup of coffee, put down your cup of coffee, and then answer your phone. Then later you hang up your phone, you remember where your cup of coffee was. You remember that. Kelton Reid: I always remember where my cup of coffee is. Michael Grybko: You have a short-term memory problem, Kelton. Kelton Reid: Wait, what? Michael Grybko: Don’t worry, it won’t affect your creativity. Kelton Reid: OK, good. Don t Take Your Typing Skills for Granted Michael Grybko: As you can see, that’s really not important — to store that information long term. A week from now it’s not important to remember where you put that cup of coffee down today to pick up your phone. As we do things over and over again, through repetition, short-term memories can turn into long-term memory. Repetition is one way. Another thing is the weight of a situation. If something is very important, you put that cup of coffee down and then you knock it over and it spills on some important paperwork, a week from now, you may remember where you put that cup of coffee down. Through various mechanisms, we build long-term memories. ‘Consolidation’ is the word for it. It involves the brain moving signals into different areas, these electrical chemical signals. Then neurons take on certain patterns, spatial and temporal patterns. Those certain neurons will fire at certain rates. That’s long-term memory. There’s an actual biochemical change going on in our brains that represents the world we live in. It’s important to point out, too, there’s different kinds of long-term memory. Two important ones are this procedural memory and then declarative memory. Procedural is referred to as ‘motor memory,’ but it doesn’t necessarily just have to be motor skills. It can be something like the route you take from home to the grocery store. Over time, you’re not thinking about it too much. You can do it without involving a lot of thought. Kelton Reid: Do you think that could include something like typing? Michael Grybko: Yes, that’s definitely procedural. Yeah, there’s a lot of tasks that we do every day. Procedural memory is very important for us surviving in the world. A lot of things we take for granted — all these day-to-day tasks — actually take a long time to develop skills. There’s a lot of memory involved. Where Creative Ideas Come From Michael Grybko: The declarative memory, that’s things like facts and knowledge. This is what we really draw on when we want to be creative — this information we have stored about places and events. This is where we start linking these different neural networks to be creative. This is our pool of information. This is where our ideas are coming from, this declarative memory. Basically, the final part of the memory process is the recall process. This is when we draw on these memories and apply them to a current situation. I think the root of creativity lies in the recall phase and how we access these neural networks to utilize the information they code for. One could postulate that the act of being creative involves recognizing connections between loosely associated items in the world that surround us, that this would be represented at the neuronal level by activating weakly associated neuronal networks. Kelton Reid: That’s a lot to take in. Michael Grybko: Yeah, it is. Kelton Reid: It seems like what you’re getting at is that the root of creativity is a combination of all of these different sets of processes that we take for granted. That procedural, remembering how to type, versus the other knowledge portion. Michael Grybko: Declarative, or knowledge. Kelton Reid: Combining that with typing something intelligent into a Word doc lies at the root of combining all of these processes. Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform — the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. Can You Teach an Old Writer New Tricks? Kelton Reid: I guess my final question is, and I know that it seems like you all on the neuroscience side are learning more and more about the brain and neuroplasticity and the idea of can you teach an old dog new tricks, I guess is my question. In other words, can creativity be taught later in life, or can it be improved? Can it be learned? Michael Grybko: These are all really good questions. Hard to answer, but I think yes. Kelton Reid: I like that answer. I asked you like 20 questions, I apologize. Why Staying Curious Is So Important to Creativity Michael Grybko: This idea that we can improve creativity is a hard question to prove, but there is some evidence out there. Just the nature of the brain, there’s the ‘use it or lose it’ principle. You see that over and over again in learning and memory — where it’s really important to keep the brain active. Creativity can be improved upon. The more you try out new things, the more skills you develop, the more creative you’ll become. There’s this important aspect of creativity that I was hinting at it in declarative memory. We have these thoughts in our head that are represented by these biochemical signals, these electrochemical signals causing these neural networks to fire in certain ways. This firing translates to a certain memory. What’s important is to just build up your knowledge base. Basically, the more information you have in your head, the more creative you’ll be — the bigger the pool of ideas you have to draw from. Kelton Reid: Keep the muscles limber, in other words. Michael Grybko: Yeah, keep them limber, and keep building them. Keep reading and trying new things and new experiences. Kelton Reid: I just did an interview with Demian Farnworth, and his main tip, at least for writers, was to stay curious, to keep learning new things. I want to get to an article really quick that probably draws on that from The New York Times. This idea that the writer can be compared to a professional athlete. The title of the article is This Is Your Brain on Writing. I totally geek out on stuff like that. I’m always curious how far are they stretching this research to make this claim that — I’ll just pull out a quote — “A novelist scrolling way in a notebook in seclusion may not seem to have much in common with an NBA player doing a reverse layup on a basketball court before a screaming crowd, but if you could peer inside their heads, you might see some striking similarities in how their brains were churning.” Of course I want to ask you about something like this. When a writer sees this, I think they’re just like, “Yeah, that’s awesome. We’re like pro athletes in our brains.” How speculative is this? Are Prolific Writers Like Pro Athletes? Michael Grybko: I think it’s stretching the original research a bit, yeah. I think this is Erhard et al. — this is a group in Germany — the original article came from. It’s interesting. They came up with this new paradigm to study creative writing and employing this MRI technique while people are engaging in writing. MRI is a brain imaging technique where you measure the amount of blood flowing through a particular area of the brain. We infer brain activity with the amount of blood, if there’s an increase in blood flow in a certain area in the brain. This is a widely used technique. There’s some drawbacks to it, certainly, because, first of all, it’s not directly measuring neuronal activity. It’s looking at blood flow. Then it’s not super accurate. You can tell an area of the brain that’s getting active, but if there’s subtle changes within that area, it’s hard to detect. Then also, it’s a big machine, and you have to lay still. Whatever part of the body, in this case the head, is being imaged has to remain still the whole time. Right off the bat, you can understand it would be impossible to compare a basketball player with a writer. I’m terrible at basketball to begin with, but I can’t imagine trying to shoot a basketball and having an MRI done at the same time, where you can’t move your head. Kelton Reid: It sounds improbable. Michael Grybko: Yeah, it’s hard to make a correlation. What they found, the group in Germany found, what was striking, is this particular area called the caudate nucleus was active during writing. The correlation is made based on this — because this is responsible for some of these procedural memories, what we were talking about before. This is an area that’s active during those times. As we do certain skills that we all have over and over and over again, we just become more and more proficient. As that proficiency increases, we see this area of the brain becoming active, whether that’s typing, playing piano, shooting a basketball, or in this case, writing. This area of the brain was becoming active when they measured creative writers doing their thing during an MRI. If that makes them like a basketball player, I won’t quite say that. Why ‘Write What You Know’ Is Good Advice Kelton Reid: Yeah, but maybe coming back to that ‘use it or lose it.’ I hear so many writers talk about why writing every day is important, and of course, research, research, research. The more you put in there, ideally the more creative you’re going to be. That old other saying of ‘write what you know’ really probably is pretty accurate. Because if you’re researching a topic sort trying to write, say, a historical novel that requires quite a bit of research, it’s probably not going to at least tell the story you want to tell or affect people in the way that you would prefer if you’re not actually doing a lot of research and putting that information in there so that you can draw from that and create something fresh, new, and maybe even surprising. Michael Grybko: Right. Then also just practicing being creative. It’s a hard thing to do. It’s a hard thing to quantify. There’s this aspect of creativity — it gets back to the originality aspect that I was talking about earlier. Whether you’re solving a problem or coming up with a new idea, really what creative solutions or ideas require us to access this information we have stored in our brain that’s represented in these neural networks and to apply it. This may involve making associations between objects or things that may not be obvious to other people. That’s where the creativity comes in. It’s coming up with a novel idea or something that maybe other people wouldn’t see. What we’re linking in the brain — there’s probably a correlation here — where this information we have stored in our brains, we’re making connections on a synaptic level, on a neuronal level. We’re bringing these two different memories that were stored — and they aren’t too well-correlated or associated — and we’re somehow, creative individuals are bringing these together on a neuronal level. Now, these two, what used to be discrete neural networks, are starting to overlap and starting to communicate with one another. It’s an interesting concept, but I think that takes practice. We can see this in something like new synapses forming and bridging the gap between these new networks could be what’s happening here. Could be the root of creativity in the brain. Kelton Reid: Wow, I love it. If I could come up with one takeaway for writers, what would you say? Would it be practice, practice, practice, or read more? Michael Grybko: Both. Kelton Reid: Watch less television? Michael Grybko: Watch good television. Kelton Reid: Watch good TV, thank you. Michael Grybko: Watch creative TV. Do all that. Keep writing. I think it’s really important for everyone — keep trying new things and new challenges. Kelton Reid: Keep learning. Michael Grybko: Yeah, keep things original. Keep putting more information into your heads. The bigger the pool of ideas you have, the more opportunities that you’ll have to be creative, the more fuel you’ll be adding to the fire. Kelton Reid: Alright. My final question to you is, should I stop saying that incantation of the Muses before my writing session? Michael Grybko: No, continue. Kelton Reid: OK, good. Michael Grybko: Does it work for you? Kelton Reid: I have no idea. Michael Grybko: Well, we’ll stick you in an MRI machine. Kelton Reid: OK. We need to research it. Michael, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about the writer’s brain. Michael Grybko: This was fun. Kelton Reid: Actually, would love you to come back and talk about a couple other issues. Michael Grybko: Personal issues or …? Kelton Reid: No. Michael Grybko: OK. Kelton Reid: I’d love for you to come back on the show and talk about storytelling and empathy at some point. Michael Grybko: Yes. Empathy’s a very exciting field, too. A lot to say on that one, too. Kelton Reid: OK, cool. Thank you so much. Michael Grybko: Awesome. This was fun. Thank you for having me. Kelton Reid: Stay curious my friends. Thanks for joining me for a glimpse into the workings of the writer’s brain. I am going to go watch an episode of Mad Men. For more episodes of The Writer Files or to leave us a comment or a question, drop by Writerfiles.FM. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes, leave us a rating or review, and help other writers to find us. You can find me on Twitter @KeltonReid. Cheers! See you out there.

Sometimes word nerds just need a place to talk shop, and that s what we intend to do here. In this episode of the The Writer Files I ve asked award-winning journalist Adam Skolnick to join me on a guest segment we’re calling Writer Porn. Adam is an award-winning, globetrotting travel journalist, which is kind of a rare thing these days. He is the author and co author of 25 Lonely Planet guidebooks, and has written for publications as varied as the New York Times (for whom he won a big award from the Associated Press Sports Editors last year), ESPN.com, Wired, Men’s Health, Outside, BBC, and Playboy Magazine. He recently finished his first narrative non-fiction book based on his award-winning NY Times coverage of the death of the greatest American free diver of all time, titled One Breath (slated for publication in January). Adam and I talk about how a page one New York Times story became a book, the secret literary legacy of Playboy Magazine, debunking Jack Kerouac’s prolificness, and tips and tricks to staying focused when you re working on multiple projects across multiple timezones. In this 29-minute file Adam Skolnick and I discuss: How a Tragic New York Times Story Became a Book What a Globetrotting Journalist Does to Get a Story The Secret Literary Legacy of Playboy Magazine What Mr. Skolnick Has in Common with Hunter S. Thompson One Great Trick to Stay Focused on Multiple Deadlines Busting The Urban Legend of Jack Kerouac’s “On the Road” Why You Shouldn’t Compare Yourself to Other Writers How to Stay Organized When You Have a Ton of Research Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes AdamSkolnick.com A Deep-Water Diver From Brooklyn Dies After Trying for a Record Top 10 Writers Published in Playboy ‘I Only Read It For The Interviews’ The Fact and Fiction of ‘On the Road’ Process: The Writing Lives of Great Authors by Sarah Stodola Voice Recorder HD for Audio Recording, Playback, Trimming and Sharing Behind the Beautiful Forevers by Kaherine Boo Zeitoun by Dave Eggers Kelton Reid on Twitter Adam Skolnick on Twitter Writer Porn on Twitter Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By   Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! The Transcript How Award-Winning Journalist Adam Skolnick Writes Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers, from online content creators to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid: writer, podcaster, and mediaphile. Each week, we’ll find out how great writers keep the ink flowing, the cursor moving, and avoid writer s block. In this episode of The Writer Files, I’ve asked award-winning journalist Adam Skolnick to join me on a guest segment we call Writer Porn. Sometimes, word nerds just need a place to talk shop, and that’s what we intend to do here. We’ll talk about how a page-one New York Times story became a book, the secret literary legacy of Playboy magazine, debunking the urban legend of Jack Kerouac’s creative Mount Everest, and tips and tricks to staying focused when you’re working on multiple projects across multiple time zones. Just a quick introduction of Adam: he is an award-winning, globetrotting travel journalist, and obviously, that’s a rare thing these days. He is the author and co-author of 25 Lonely Planet guidebooks, and he’s also written for publications as varied as ESPN.com, Men’s Health, Outside, BBC, and Playboy. He’s just now finishing up his first narrative non-fiction book based on his award-winning New York Times coverage of the death of the greatest American free diver of all time. The title of that book is One Breath, and it is slated for publication in January. Congratulations on that accomplishment. That must feel pretty good. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, it feels great. It was a big, big weight off my shoulders. Kelton Reid: To say the least, I’m sure. Adam Skolnick: Yeah. You have this goal in mind, and it’s driving you. It was well over a year from the time when he died to the point of getting the book deal and researching the book and tagging along with the free divers and embedding myself with his friends and family, then writing it. You re so singly focused for all that time. Then when it’s done, you do relax deeply. Kelton Reid: You actually won a pretty big award from the AP last year, didn’t you? How a Tragic New York Times Story Became a Book Adam Skolnick: I don’t know how big it is, but in sports writing, it s fairly large. I was there to do more of a general feature on free diving for the New York Times — this was an event in November 2013 called Vertical Blue. Vertical Blue is the Wimbledon of free diving. It’s competitive free diving, so the divers compete in three different disciplines. They hold their breath, and they go as deep as possible on that one breath, either with fins or without fins, or by pulling a line down and back. That’s the event, and that’s the sport. Because it’s a growing sport, more and more people are getting into it either casually or seriously, and there are schools opening all over the world. It’s an international sport, and I was just there to do a general feature. When he died, tragically, I just happened to be there 10 feet away, so it became a different story right off the bat. That story, I wrote it that evening — the first one, the day-one story — and it went viral. I think it was the New York Times number-one story that day. Then the next day, we did a follow-up piece with a group of writers, myself and three others, and both those stories were widely disseminated. I think people were enamored with the sport, enamored with the this diver, Nicholas Mevoli. The Times submitted it. I had no idea they were submitting it until they were. All the major papers submit to the APSE Awards. It’s a newspaper award, and it’s an organization, and they honor the best newspaper sports writing each year. I was lucky enough to win. Kelton Reid: It is an amazingly tragic story. I know that you spent a lot of time on the road, because I was getting rogue transmissions from you. Were you in Russia? What a Globetrotting Journalist Does to Get a Story Adam Skolnick: Yeah. The book starts with Nick s death, and then it goes back through his life. It’s Into the Wild meets Shadow Divers. Shadow Divers was a bestseller about some wreck divers and their quest to discover this new wreck they found, what it was and to name it. There was a lot of death and destruction involved in that, and it was a really compelling book. Into The Wild, we all know, is an iconic book and Krakauer’s first book. It’s a great book. Just like Chris McCandless in Into The Wild, Nick had a story where he had an even more troubled upbringing than McCandless, and he was searching for something, and he found it free diving after many, many forays into acting, into protest. The water was his refuge. The water was where he was free. He ended up finding this sport later in terms of athletics. He found it when he was 30. His first competition, he broke the American record. He was this gifted athlete, a tremendous athlete, not just as a swimmer. He was also a tremendous athlete on the bike. He was a near-X-Games-quality BMXer and just an incredible soul. Following him is a no-brainer. You want to tell that story. It s an inspiring story. I start with his story, and I go back and forth between him and the 2014 free diving seasons. For that, I went to Roatán for the Caribbean Cup, which is — if you use a tennis metaphor — one of the Grand Slam events, then the World Championships, which is obviously the World Championships, and that was in Sardinia, Italy, and then also back to Vertical Blue a year later. In the meantime, I spent time with two of the great Russian free divers. Natalia Molchanova and her son, Alexey Molchanov, are two of the very best free divers in the world. Natalia is the very best female free diver of all time, and Alexey is the deepest diver with fins, so he’s one of the two best free divers currently in the world. I spent time with them in Russia. Kelton Reid: You’ve been a little busy. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, I’ve been busy. What bridges those two stories in the book — Nick s story and his rise from the time he’s a child to getting into the sport, and then the 2014 season — is the work of some doctors who are trying to figure out what exactly happened to Nick, because his death is something the sport of free diving the sport had never seen before. It wasn’t the type of accident that you would have normally seen in free diving, it was very unique. Kelton Reid: It sounds like a really captivating story, and I actually can’t wait to read it. Adam Skolnick: Thanks, man. Kelton Reid: I just find it fascinating, the fact that you are a guy who is always on the road. You travel many, many months out of the year. You don’t have a permanent home. And then you’re constantly working on a handful of different deadlines simultaneously. One of those has been doing some writing for Playboy. I guess my first question is, how do average citizens react when you mention that you have published with them or are working for them? Adam Skolnick: Average citizens? Kelton Reid: I don’t know. How does your mom react? Adam Skolnick: I don’t know any average citizens, Kelton. Kelton Reid: I m sorry. The Secret Literary Legacy of Playboy Magazine Adam Skolnick: No, I think it’s funny. It depends on who it is. Some people react knowing that Playboy has this rich literary history, but more often, the younger folks I talk to laugh, and they have no idea of this rich history that Playboy has. I have to explain to them that there’s articles. Of course, I just finished up a story about free diving for Playboy that’ll be out in May. Going into the free diving community and explaining to them that I’m going to write a story for Playboy about the sport, some were just mystified that that’s a thing. I don’t know why. My theory is that people go elsewhere for their naked pictures, and that has somehow dimmed Playboy’s history in people s minds, when in reality, it’s still here. It s still kicking. It s still publishing good writers. Kelton Reid: So it s a generational thing, maybe. It s not that generation who’s saying, “I only read it for the articles,” any longer. They don’t even know that it has or had articles to begin with, or that some of the most famous authors of the 20th century published there, including Arthur C. Clarke, Ian Fleming, Nabokov, Chuck Palahniuk, Murakami, Margaret Atwood. The list goes on, and on, and on. You recognize some of those names. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, Gabriel García Márquez. Kelton Reid: Joseph Heller. Adam Skolnick: It’s an honor for me. I think Playboy’s upheld an ideal, and it was always a progressive ideal. It was a pushing-America-forward ideal. That’s how it was founded. Part of that is this great literary tradition. My favorite article probably of all time out of Playboy is the interview that Alex Haley did with Malcolm X, which subsequently led to the autobiography of Malcolm X, which was one of the great works of non-fiction in American history. Playboy has this incredibly rich tradition. It’s an honor to be associated with them. They have a full bar in their lobby. I love it. What Mr. Skolnick Has in Common with Hunter S. Thompson Kelton Reid: Another one of those great interviews, I think, was with Hunter S. Thompson, who, oddly enough, also wrote for the New York Times and was a pretty accomplished journalist himself. Another strange factoid — he relocated to Hawaii to work on a book. It sounds like a familiar theme. Did you write your book in Hawaii? Adam Skolnick: No, but I had relocated to Hawaii to do a story on the GMO corn seed farms that have cropped up where the old sugar cane plantations once were. There is one community that is being heavily impacted by tainted dust that’s blown into their community and damaged property and impacted public health. I moved out there to cover that story. In Hawaii, it’s very hard to parachute in and tell a story well. There’s trust issues with outsiders, and from the surf culture on, it s a very locals-only type spot. It was helpful for me to rent a house there and live there while I burrowed into this story. The person who came and shot that story, a photographer named Lia Barrett, had just come from the Caribbean Cup in 2013 where Nick had hit his 100-meter dive, and she was pitching, “Hey, we should be covering free diving together.” That was the whole genesis of me going to Vertical Blue in the first place, and that story also led me to connect with the New York Times in the first place. That story came out in Salon, but it connected me up with the New York Times science reporter there. It was just an odd turn of events that led me to be in the Bahamas that day, and Hawaii was definitely part of it. As far as me living overseas and working on stuff, that’s something I’ve done frequently. A couple of the places I’ve covered for Lonely Planet include Indonesia and Thailand, which I’ve covered each several times. Whenever I’m there and do those jobs, I tend to stay in the country to write my manuscript. I’ve done that several times. I’ve done the same thing. When I was working on stories, reporting about Myanmar and East Burma and the humanitarian crisis there, I’ve embedded in the community for some time to tell those stories. It’s something I’ve done and something I’ll continue to do. I enjoy doing that part of it and staying longer than most reporters would. Kelton Reid: Let me turn the conversation briefly to productivity. As you’re working on different long-form and short-form pieces, especially when you’re working on a hard deadline but you’re in a beautiful place like Bali or Hawaii, how do you stay focused, first of all? Adam Skolnick: The main thing for me is that I give myself a words-per-day quota. If you’re talking about a longer piece, or even with shorter pieces I do that now, you’re talking about a manuscript that’s upwards of 50,000, 100,000 words. Most books are over 100,000 words or around 100,000 words. The Lonely Planet manuscripts can vary anywhere from 30,000 to 80,000 — I ve had 90,000 words. It’s basically the same amount of material, but it’s just a different type of material. In order to hack through material, you have to give yourself a words-per-day quota, and once you do that, you find that you can meet it. That’s, I think, the hardest thing for newer writers, or younger writers, or any writer really — the focus, the expansion of that focus. Everyone could sit down when they’re inspired and pound out something, could make it sound good. What if they’re tired or dragging or not feeling it? How do they then push on? You have to. In order to put together any big piece of work, you have to be able to push through good days and bad days. Frankly, even the bad days could turn out better work than the good days sometimes. It’s just a matter of being there, showing up, doing it. I give myself a 3,000-word-a-day quota that I try to meet, whether I’m doing a Lonely Planet guide book or I’m doing my book. If I’m doing a magazine story — a feature story where I’ll still try to turn out a lot of words — I might do 2,000 words day then, because I’m going over the words a bit more carefully at first. Whereas with books, you can put out this massive amount of work and then go back through and edit and cut afterwards. With a magazine article, maybe you do a little bit less of that. Maybe you don’t let yourself ramble for 10,000 words because that’ll make it hard to cut. Kelton Reid: On that note, I know a lot of online content creators and novelists in general are working on multiple projects simultaneously. When you say you have your 3,000-word-a-day quota, when you have a manuscript-length project, like a 100,000-word project, but then you also have smaller projects that you’re working on the side, how do you balance the two? One Great Trick to Stay Focused on Multiple Deadlines Adam Skolnick: I think there’s two things. First of all, before you’re going to sit down and write a big piece of work, unless it’s fiction, and even if it is fiction, there’s the research element. For me, I end up in a rhythm where I’m researching and then I’m writing, and then I’m researching and then I’m writing. Then, if I have overlapping deadlines, which does happen, usually it’s when I’m researching something bigger. Then I might take on write-ups or something smaller, or I might have to research for two different things at the same time. I’ve also done things where I’ve researched all day and then at night I’ve written on a different project. That’s happened. Recently, when I had to do a draft of the Playboy story and turn that in prior to the submission date of my book, I did take a few days out of that work on One Breath to dedicate to the magazine article. I’m a one-trick pony. I have a hard time multitasking, to be honest with you. I tend to give everything to what I’m doing at that moment. That’s what I do. For me, multitasking is, “Okay, tomorrow I’m going to do this in the day, and in the night I’m going to do 1,500 words because I can’t do 3,000 because I’m only going to do a night session,” or something like that. I’ll just have that marked in my head. That’s the best multitasking I can probably do. You can’t help it if you’re doing a project that’s three months long. Something else might come up in between that you have to connect to. Usually, what I’ll do is I’ll disconnect from the longer project for a period of time, a couple of days, and do the smaller one. That’s usually what I do because it’s just easier for me to do that then try to do them all at once. Kelton Reid: That single-minded focus is good. I definitely ascribe to that. Subscribe to that? Do I aspire to that? Adam Skolnick: Yes, I don’t know. You could ascribe, aspire, and subscribe to it. Kelton Reid: Just a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform, the complete website solution for content marketers and online entrepreneurs. Find out more and take a free 14-day test drive at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. Busting the Urban Legend of Jack Kerouac s On the Road Kelton Reid: Speaking of another famous author who published in Playboy: Jack Kerouac actually published in Playboy. He started his journalistic career, and I didn’t know this, as a sports reporter for the New York World Telegram — I’m sure that exists still. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, right. Kelton Reid: He s most well known for writing the 120,000-word novel On The Road in three weeks — I put three weeks in quotes — on this 120-foot long scroll of paper that he famously taped together or whatever. Adam Skolnick: Right. Didn’t Jim Irsay buy the scroll recently? Kelton Reid: I don’t know, the original or what? Adam Skolnick: The owner of the Colts — I think he bought the original scroll. Kelton Reid: That’s wild. I did get a chance to see that scroll actually here in Denver. Adam Skolnick: I bought that hardcover they released. Kelton Reid: Is that right? Adam Skolnick: Yeah, right around the auction time, they finally released it in hardcover. All the real names are in there that he doesn’t use. He uses his own name. He uses William Burroughs’ name. He uses Allen Ginsberg s name, and of course Neal Cassady s name. Kelton Reid: What I found most interesting about the fact that it’s this urban legend, or this creative Mount Everest, that he sat there for three weeks with this single-pointed attention and supposedly wrote this 120,000 word novel in those 20, 21 days on speed. It’s an urban legend that writers hold dear to their hearts. I read recently that that might not be as accurate as we thought it was, because according to Sarah Stodola s book Process: The Writing Lives of Great Authors –which I highly recommend, I love it, it’s pure writer porn in my opinion — Kerouac wrote six drafts of On the Road in the three years leading up to those three weeks where he finally nailed it. When he wasn’t sitting at that typewriter, he was taking notes prolifically, much like you do, journalists do. When he was criss-crossing the country, and meeting all these crazy people, and collecting all these stories, that was part of his process. Really, he wrote that novel over three years time. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, the first draft, you mean. Kelton Reid: The first draft. It wasn’t published for another 6 years. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, I think that everyone loves the wunderkind, genius story, so that’s probably where that came from. Plus, he did sit down there for three weeks and do the scroll and do his 120,000 words. If you read the published version of that, you’ll see there’s no indentations or anything like that, so you can see his manic mind moving and working in a way that you can’t when you read the polished work. There’s something raw there. Of course the polished version is a classic. It s probably one of my favorite books of all time. Why You Shouldn t Compare Yourself to Other Writers Adam Skolnick: Yeah, it can be daunting when you start to compare yourself to other writers. I think that’s what that does. When you hear about that, you’re like, “God, I’m not capable of that. Does that mean I’m not capable of writing a book as good as On the Road. Does that mean I’m not capable of making a living as a writer?” I think those are the kinds of neurotic mind loops that we tend to go into, especially writers who are internal and in their head a lot anyway. At least I am. I think that debunking that myth is really good, because obviously you don’t get to be where he got to at such a young age without incredible work ethic. It’s not about doing speed and sitting down for three weeks, but it’s about doing it all the time. I think that’s what he did, and that’s why he was so great. Kelton Reid: Flexing that muscle — because he had really been writing from an early age. His father introduced him to writing. He had his own printing press. He started early. I think by the time he was 22, his writings amounted to something like 600,000 words. I think even William Burroughs said that when he met Jack Kerouac close to that, he probably had written closer to a million words. He was flexing that muscle, so to speak. That’s a monumental feat, but he was clearly a professional athlete in the sport. Adam Skolnick: Yeah, it’s the classic Gladwell thing now, the 10,000 hours. He had that real young. That’s what did it. Again, it’s no mystery why he was so great. He found his voice young because he was writing so much, and it became so natural for him. Yeah, there probably was something happening creatively by him doing this: “I’m going to sit down for three weeks and do it until it’s done, do it right this one last time.” We can’t completely let go of that myth because there had to be some sort of chemical reaction with the muse that made it so great that time he sat there. Otherwise he wouldn’t have continued to sit there. There’s something to that last gasp, three-week marathon that he pulled off that I think matters. Yeah, I think that’s not what makes him great. What makes him great is the work before and after. Kelton Reid: He was meticulously organized, this guy. He had files and notebooks and kept everything pretty neatly organized. I think a lot of his Beat friends who would visit his apartment would always marvel at the fact that he was just very regimented guy. I think he was also a merchant marine, if I’m not mistaken. Adam Skolnick: Yeah. Kelton Reid: When you’re travelling the world, Adam Skolnick, and you’re working on all these different mediums, you’re probably using not only notebooks, photographs, audio interviews. How to Stay Organized When You Have a Ton of Research Adam Skolnick: I’m not the most organized guy in the world. You are very organized, Kelton Reid. I’m not the most organized. When I first started, because I was a travel writer before I was doing harder core stories — and I still do a lot of travel stories, and obviously the Lonely Planet stuff is all travel-related — I would just use Moleskine notebooks or whatever notebooks I could find on the road if I ran out of notebooks. I kept it all in notebooks, kept all those notebooks on me, and when it came time to do the write-up, I would just go through the notebooks at the time. Then when Lonely Planet started to go to a shared publishing platform, I was part of the experimental phase. One of the higher-ups that came on the road with us — and we did this in Colorado, as a matter of fact — asked me to start taking notes on my phone just to see if I liked it. At first I didn’t like it at all, and I felt like I was losing something in terms of creativity with the mind and the whole idea of the hands and a brain. They’re connected, and if I’m writing something analog then my brain s working differently and somehow opening more organically, which was really probably just my own laziness, not wanting to have to adapt to using this app and using my thumbs. He said, “Just try it for a week, and then you can go back to the notebooks if you want.” Pretty soon after, I found that putting it into a phone right away, uploading it right away, actually made it easier and makes me, a less organized person, more organized. I started to use the phone, and I now use all sorts. I use the phone when I’m interviewing subjects. I’ll use the phone for notes sometimes. I’ll use my notebooks sometimes, depending on the situation, and then I’ll also use the audio recorder. Voice Recorder HD is the app I use, because you can back it up to Dropbox. I do that for some interviews. I’ll use any number of those three things. Then afterward, I’ll have to transcribe the voice interviews. I’ve done most of that myself, although I do farm it out sometimes to transcription services if I’m under the gun, and that’s just something I’ve started to experiment with lately. Then, in terms of the book, which I don’t have call to do this for anything else because if I’m doing a Lonely Planet guide book or a magazine story I could keep everything in one Notes file. I don’t need more than one Notes file, and then I can email that to myself and put it into a Word document. Now all my notes are already transcribed from the notebook, which is my phone, and it’s all right there. Then I can go through it and highlight what I need and look through it. I don’t have to do much. Although, when I’m writing a magazine story, what I’ll do is I’ll outline the story, and then I’ll go through those notes and take the chunks that I think relate to the subject or the turn in the story that I’m working. I’ll slot that into that piece in the outline so I have it all there for me. That’s how I’ll organize it right before I do the work. In terms of this book, there were literally hundreds of interviews. I couldn’t tell you right now because I haven’t counted them all out, but it’s over 100 interviews. I’m interviewing different people about different things and different places. Then I started to slot them into their own separate document. I’m just using Word documents, and I’ll just slot in those notes or that transcribed interview into the North Carolina pile, or the New York City pile, or the Russia pile, or the Sardinia pile, that kind of stuff. That’s how I did that. Then when it came down to the outline, again with the book, I did more detailed outline, and I started slotting in those big slabs of notes into those sections. So when I started working on it, it was all there for me. That’s how it worked. I probably have 1,000 Word pages of notes to work on. Kelton Reid: You’ve just got this huge raw block of clay, so to speak, that you start molding from there. You’ve got to start with something, and that’s pretty amazing. Last quick question for Adam Skolnick: can you give us a couple recommendations for favorite non-fiction reads you read recently? Adam Skolnick: I read Behind the Beautiful Forevers, which is beautiful. Katherine Boo, I believe, is the author. It s a beautiful book about the Mumbai slums. Zeitoun — a few years ago I read that. it’s one of my favorite nonfiction books of all time. That’s about a handyman who was caught in the floods in New Orleans after Katrina. It s a beautiful book by Dave Eggers, and I highly recommend that. Kelton Reid: Great one. Adam Skolnick: Then Harry Potter is my favorite non-fiction book I’ve ever read — J.K Rowling. Amazing how she embedded herself into that world. I found it magical … oh wait. Kelton Reid: I’m not familiar. Adam Skolnick: Are you not familiar with that work? Kelton Reid:Adam Skolnick: Thanks for having me. Kelton Reid: We will speak with you in another episode very soon. I appreciate your time. Remember, every great sculpture starts with a raw block of clay. Keep working, and eventually it will start to look like something. Thanks for flipping through Adam’s file with me. If you enjoyed this episode of The Writer Files, feel free to leave a comment or a question on the website at Writerfiles.FM. You can also easily subscribe to the show on iTunes and get updates on new episodes. Please leave a rating or a review on iTunes to help other writers find us. You can find me on Twitter @KeltonReid. You can find Adam @adamskolnick. You can find more Writer Porn @writerporn. Cheers. Talk to you next week.

Welcome to The Writer Files, a tour of the habits, habitats, and brains of renowned writers — from online content creators, to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. Great writing is more vital and in demand than it’s ever been. But sometimes writers get stuck — the right words don t appear, we get distracted, or worse, lose interest in our work — and that s when the solitary nature of writing can become a curse. I m here to remind you that all writers have moments of doubt, feelings of ineffectiveness, and droughts where the words won t flow. For writers like you and I to stay productive, creative, and sane, sometimes we just need to take a look at how other scribes find ways keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving. In this episode, I want share the file of prolific online publisher, Demian Farnworth. Between the writing he does for Copyblogger, his personal blog, and his two podcasts that regularly land at the top of iTunes, he promises to … deliver the essential writing advice you need to succeed online. In this 32-minute file Demian Farnworth and I discuss: Why Demian Loves The Writer Files Interview Series How a Poet Learned to Make a Living Online Why You Should Treat Your Writing Like Music Demian’s Secret to His Prolificness Why You Need to Over-Sharpen Your Axe 3 Timeless Ideas that Lead to Enhanced Creativity Why So Many Writers Quit A Single Word that Will Help You Keep the Cursor Moving Listen to The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience below ... Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes The Show Notes The Writer Files Interview Series on Copyblogger Influence by Robert Cialdini Demian’s Author Page on Copyblogger.com The Copybot Rough Draft Podcast The Lede Podcast Journalist Michael Kruse Kelton Reid on Twitter Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You By Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting. Start getting more from your site today! The Transcript How Demian Farnworth (Copyblogger s Chief Content Writer) Writes Voiceover: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com. Kelton Reid: These are The Writer Files, a tour through the habits, habitats, and brains of working writers — from online content creators, to fictionists, journalists, entrepreneurs, and beyond. I’m your host, Kelton Reid, Director of Multimedia Production for Copyblogger Media. I’ve been there in the trenches — from indie screenwriter to online content creator — and I know the battle of the blank page. I’ll be the first to admit that writers are a pretty weird bunch, but we’ve been looked at as conjurers for thousands of years for our abilities to give meaning to thoughts, tell amazing stories, and even sell things. From Aristotle to Don Draper, great scribes have been hailed as heroes since the invention of charcoal. Lucky for you and I, the art of great writing at this critical time in history is more vital and in demand than it’s ever been, but sometimes writers get stuck. The right words don’t appear. We get distracted, or worse, lose interest in our work, and that’s when the solitary nature of writing can be a curse. I’m here to remind you that all writers have moments of doubt, feelings of ineffectiveness, and droughts where the words aren’t flowing. For writers like you and I to stay productive, creative, and sane, sometimes we just need to step away from our keyboards. That’s where The Writer Files comes in. We’ll take a look around and see how other scribes keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving without losing their minds. We may learn a few things about our own process along the way. In this episode, I want to share the file of Copyblogger’s Chief Content Writer, Demian Farnworth. Demian’s a prolific online publisher who’s storied career has spanned from consultant to senior web copywriter and even managing editor for a print magazine. His mission statement is to write clear, concise, and compelling copy. Between the writing he does for Copyblogger, his own personal blog, and his two podcasts that regularly land at the top of iTunes, he promises to “Deliver the essential writing advice you need to succeed online.” Let’s flip through file of prolific writer and podcaster Demian Farnworth. Greetings, Demian. I thought it only appropriate to have you on the show because of our shared work on The Writer Files written interview series over at Copyblogger.com, where you are still a contributing editor to the series, which is very cool. Now, we both have podcasts here on Rainmaker.FM. Why Demian Loves the Writer Files Interview Series Demian Farnworth: Thank you. Yeah, I love doing The Writer Files because it’s a great set of questions. Every time that I do one, the people whom I interview come back with “that was the best interview I’ve ever done.” I’m like, “I’ve got to give Kelton credit because I didn’t come up with the questions.” Of course, the premise is from the Proust Questionnaire. I love doing them, too, because they’re not your typical questions about business, and because we’re in the field of marketing, you can ask the same questions. For me, because it’s The Writer Files, I always enjoy hearing about people outside of their business: “I know that you are many dimensions, so show me more of that.” So that s the reason I like doing those — people walking away and thinking, “That was a great interview.” So, well done. Thank you for sharing that with me. Kelton Reid: Absolutely. It made perfect sense, and you were a good fit for that, and I really love the work that you’ve been doing on it as well. I think we should get into the file of one Demian Farnworth. What do you say? Game? Demian Farnworth: I’m game. Thank you. Kelton Reid: Let’s talk a little bit about you, the author. Who are you, and what is your area of expertise? How a Poet Learned to Make a Living Online Demian Farnworth: The short answer is that I was, or am, a poet who figured out how to make money writing online so that I could make a living and raise a family. I fell in love with marketing and through Robert Cialdini’s book, Influence, realized that what I loved doing — which was writing — I was capable of continuing to do it. I could sustain it through what I did in that I didn’t have to succumb to a sense of “this is stale business stuff.” I could actually treat it as art but have it still be useful and still be meaningful to people who have problems and are looking for solutions. Kelton Reid: I love Cialdini’s Influence, also, and I’ll link to that in the show notes. Where can we find your writing? Demian Farnworth: Copyblogger.com. I think if you look up ‘Demian Farnworth,’ you could find all my articles there. I also have a personal website called The Copybot. That’s TheCopybot.com. Of course, you can listen to my writing on my podcast, Rough Draft, where it’s a daily short show about the craft of writing online. Kelton Reid: What are you working on right now, Demian? Demian Farnworth: I’m working on the show. My thought behind the show was I want it short. I want it daily. I want it sequential. I’m treating it like, everything that I’ve learned over the years, I want to systematize it — like start from the very beginning and work through as if I was having a conversation with people. About two or three times out of the week, I write scripts for that and then I record on Fridays. Then also I’m working with Jerod on the show The Lede. We’re doing great little series. We’re calling it the Hero Versus Villains series, where we take popular concepts in the business and marketing world and debate those from a hero position or a villain position. That’s been a lot of fun, but it’s a lot of research, too. Of course, I’m also focusing on what they call ‘adaptive content’ this year for the Copyblogger blog, and that’s a work in progress. It’s probably going to be a year-long adventure because it’s very new to me and it hasn’t quite been defined, so it’s a bit complicated. I’m finding my way through it. We’re out in front of that trend, so we’re getting the chance to define it. That’s been a lot of fun to do, too. Kelton Reid: Let’s spin through a little bit about your productivity. How much time per day do you read or do research? Demian Farnworth: I want to say three, four, five hours. I mean, I wouldn’t say there’s defined time, because everything that I do read, whether books or blogs, is research in my mind. But if there’s acute research where I’m working on a project, probably about two or three hours a day. Kelton Reid: Before you fire up the MacBook or typewriter, do you have any pre-game rituals or practices? Demian Farnworth: I like to work in the morning. I’m just genuinely freshest in the morning, most clear in thinking, probably most productive. I like to spend probably an hour, an hour and a half, reading and meditating and just getting my head clear. Then once that’s done, I get up. I eat — probably I’m drinking coffee, of course — and then I just sit down and write. Kelton Reid: That brings me to our next question, which is, what is your most productive locale for your writing? Demian Farnworth: I guess my desk. I feel very comfortable, like I’m a creature of habit. I like routine, so I like writing at my desk, but I can certainly find different places in our house to do that or at the local coffee shop as long as I get headphones on. Probably my favorite location is my desk in my office in my basement. Kelton Reid: Do you prefer any particular music or silence while you write? Why You Should Treat Your Writing Like Music Demian Farnworth: I like music. I guess just it depends. I remember Jon Morrow — his answer to this question is “silence” because there’s a certain cadence to writing, and I agree with him. But I find my productivity sometimes goes up when I’ve got the right music and the right cadence. Like if I’m working on a rough draft or a first draft of something, it’s usually something that’s like a drum-storm, driving type of fast-moving where it’s pushing me forward and I’m moving forward. But then when I’m in that more careful, precision phase where I’m editing, I like to listen to more instrumental work by Richard James, who’s also known as Aphex Twin for some background. I also like — and I may butcher the name — the Icelandic band Sigur Rós. Kelton Reid: Oh, yeah. I like those guys. Demian Farnworth: Right. I like that. I don’t understand what they’re saying, so it s not like it interferes with my thinking, but it’s very beautiful. It’s melodic and beautiful. Which phase I’m in determines what kind of music. Sometimes I will just shut everything off and write in silence, but that’s unusual. I like music, and I think that in a lot of ways, I treat like my writing as music. I think a keyboard — my keyboard, my laptop — is not any different than the keyboard on a piano. Kelton Reid: I’m going to have to steal that. How many hours a day would you say you spend writing, and I’m not including email? Demian s Secret to His Prolificness Demian Farnworth: I try to get started about 8:00, but it’s usually more like 8:30, sometimes 9:00. I’ll push through till 12, to 1, till 2, depending on how much I have to do and to get done. Of course, there are breaks in between there. My prevailing philosophy about writing is — I share this with a lot of people — keep your bottom in the seat. It’s also to just push yourself. I’m not really into this idea of having work for 33 minutes and then take a three-minute break or whatever — the Eugene Schwartz technique where you have prescribed times. I let what needs to be done dictate that. I reward myself, so I’ll say, “Once I get to this section, I can go up and use the restroom,” or “Once I’ve nailed this closing, then I can get up and go get something to eat.” I bait myself to finish certain work and reward myself then. This is the long way of saying — to answer your question — it could be anywhere from two, three, four to six hours a day. It just depends on the demand of what I’m working on. Kelton Reid: Sure. Do you feel like you write every day? Demian Farnworth: I do. I don’t typically write on the weekends, though. I feel like I need that break, and I appreciate that break. Sometimes I will break that rule, but I like to completely separate myself from what I’m working on over the weekend. Kelton Reid: All right, this is the tough one. Do you believe in writer’s block? Why You Need to Over-Sharpen Your Axe Demian Farnworth: No, I don’t. I don’t believe in it because I think that it’s a cop-out to say that there’s writer’s block. I mean, sure, we struggle with the ability to say what we want to say. We all struggle with the idea of like, “This is a dumb idea, so I’m not going to write it.” Or we just don’t have anything to say, so we’re not going to write. I think writer’s block is this idea of, “I need to write something, but I can’t write it.” If I feel like I’m in that position, then I clearly have not done enough research. It s that old Abraham Lincoln saying where he says, “If I’m going to chop down a tree, I’ll spend 90 percent of the time sharpening the saw,” or I think that’s what he said — or the axe, whatever it is. Almost everything comes really easily if you over-prepare, so that’s what I tend to do. So if I feel like I don’t have anything to say about this, it’s clear I have not done my homework. Kelton Reid: Let’s talk a little bit about your workflow. What hardware or typewriter model are you presently using? Demian Farnworth: I think that it’s a MacBook Air, and it’s the 13-inch screen, and that’s the extent of what I know. Kelton Reid: I won’t push you on that one. What software do you use most for your writing work? Demian Farnworth: I like to work inside WordPress. If like I’m working on something for our blog, whether it’s our blog or my own blog, I will work in WordPress so that we automatically have the code behind the links and all that if I need to share the text version of it. That’s the preferred way, to work straight in WordPress. If I need to, I ll work in Word, and of course, sometimes I work in Google Docs and on the platform medium, but that’s more copy/paste stuff than anything. Kelton Reid: Do you have any best practices for beating procrastination? Demian Farnworth: I think the only thing that I can say to that is that I just do it. Procrastination does not discriminate between something I really want to work on versus something I don’t want to work on. It’ll occur, but it’s more, I think, just laziness than anything. I know that I’ve got to do it, and that’s why I’m a routine guy. I need to sit down. I have my time. I ve got to work, and I ve got to do the work. I know that it’s not going to go away, so I just need to deal with it. I just tell myself, “Whether you want to do this or not, you have to do it.” If it’s something I want to do, I’ll do it first so it’s done and I don’t have it hanging over my head. Other than that, it’s just “sit down and do the work.” Kelton Reid: This is a broad question, but how do you stay organized? Do you have any mad science or methods? I know I’ve seen some photos of your office. Demian Farnworth: Well, yeah. When I do research, the process is like this. As I mentioned, over-prepare. So you’ve got notes scattered everywhere, whether they’re written or in Evernote. Then organize. Bring those notes together. Codify them into one platform, like Evernote. Then I transfer them into the whiteboard so that I can start to see them and see them in place and how these pieces are going to fit in together. Typically, that occurs when I’m working on something that’s large and sequential and long-term. For example, when I did the native advertising series or the Google+ series, that was my very precise procedure because I knew that I had six or seven articles to write on that. I had a lot of material, and I wanted to see how everything fit into place. It’s word-based storyboarding, is the way I’d probably describe it. Kelton Reid: Yeah. Demian Farnworth: I can see it, and then I can just move parts around and say, “That’s going to go there,” and then pile it. That’s how I would organize my work. Kelton Reid: Okay. The last question about your workflow is, how do you unplug at the end of the day? Demian Farnworth: That’s a good question. I try to get up and leave my office, and I try to leave my phone behind and everything. Then I go spend time with my son or my daughter or go for a run or go read a book completely unrelated to work. It’s really those three things: run, play with the family, or read. Kelton Reid: I want to take a quick pause to mention that The Writer Files is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform. If you’re looking to easily build a powerful publishing and marketing website that drives your online business, head over to Rainmaker.FM/platform right now and sign up for a free 14-day trial to see if it might be a fit for you. Rainmaker handles all the technical elements of good online business practices for you, including design, content, traffic, and conversion, and does it all under one roof. Head over to Rainmaker.FM/platform right now, and get back to building your online business. All right, let’s talk a little bit about creativity. How do you define creativity in your own words? 3 Timeless Ideas That Lead to Enhanced Creativity Demian Farnworth: That’s a good one. I think creativity is really just bringing two, divergent ideas together. I mean, being creative is experimenting and putting pieces together until they work. That’s such a hard one. I think it was T.S. Eliot who described what a poem was. His metaphor was a chemical reaction where two different elements come together and create something totally new. I think I’ve always probably defaulted back to that definition of creation, creativity. Implicit in that is that idea of experimentation and play and failure, but at the same time enjoying that until you get to a place like, “Aha, that finally works.” Kelton Reid: Okay, so on that note, who or what is your Muse at the moment? Demian Farnworth: Probably music. As a writer, I can’t get away from the connection that when I’m writing something, I want to create an image in someone’s head that they would see with their mind’s eye that could be compared to the way music appears in people’s heads. When I think about the people who inspire me, it’s almost always musicians. Now, I have my favorite writers, but musicians really inspire me because I think there’s something about music that I would like to be able to do, but create as a writer. I don’t play any instruments, so I have to pretend like I play the keyboard or something. Kelton Reid: Right, back to your initial metaphor, which I love. Can you share a favorite inspirational quote? Demian Farnworth: I don’t think it’s inspirational, but my favorite quote for sure has to be Will Rogers. He said, “Never miss an opportunity to shut up.” I say that’s inspirational in a sense because I need to be inspired to listen to people versus always being forceful and being the first one to speak and being quick to answer. I’m inspired by the idea of being silent and letting other people speak and tuning in on who they are, so you only do that when you’re quiet. Kelton Reid: Well put. What makes a writer great in your opinion? Demian Farnworth: Not giving up. I think that’s cheesy, but the reason I say that is because I go back to this idea. I m like, “So let s define what a great writer is. It s someone who, in my mind, passes the test of time — so has a legacy, has longevity, and what they’re saying applies universally. Now, I know in our field, that’s hard to get to because a lot of times, what we’re dealing with is just superficial, time-dominated issues. We could write something that is really meaningless a year later because the industry has changed in some sense. I think a writer is great when they have legs, and they can write about anything, and they write well about it. It’s meaningful, and it leaves a taste in your mouth. Why So Many Writers Quit Demian Farnworth: I think the only way you can get there is if you persevere and if you don’t give up because in the end, it’s really a war of attrition. The episode of Rough Draft for this day is basically describing the state of affairs online and the fact that most people don’t read what you write, yet you have to be okay with it and you have to write anyway. A great writer, I think, is someone who says, “Okay, that’s the environment in which I have to work, so now I have to ask myself, ‘Am I okay with that?'” They have to ask that ‘why’ question. “Why am I doing this? If things are so bleak, why am I doing this?” Then they persevere through that because eventually, you have to master that and become someone who’s well-read and well-respected. You have to persevere, and you have to continue and — I say ‘war of attrition’ — to rise above the noise. Eventually you gain traction. A lot of times, you see people who start out, and they’ve got great traction, but for one reason or another, they stop or they have to quit. So they just die out. They don’t reach the potential that they can reach because they didn’t persevere for whatever reason. It’s perseverance that ultimately makes a great writer. I mean, I think about Herman Melville and Moby Dick. He died a penniless stock merchant, and it wasn’t until like 70 years later that people realized the genius of Moby Dick. He had said, “I wrote the gospel of the ages but nobody is paying attention.” Yet he still wrote. He still wrote within that. I admire that. I think that’s what makes a writer great. Of course, the quality of the writing has to be good. Kelton Reid: Do you have a couple of favorite writers at the moment, online or offline? Demian Farnworth: I admire people like Joan Didion, William Faulkner, and Christopher Hitchens. I admire people who have taken the language and have used it in such a way that inspires and is beautiful — like Christopher Hitchens, for example. I like him because of the way he challenged the status quo, and he made just as many friends as he made enemies. Yet he wrote, and he wrote well. He studied people. I like to also read a lot of 16th and 17th century writers too — I don’t know if I’m going to get this right, but Montaigne. Then online — that’s a good question about current writers you might enjoy because most of what I do online is all research-related. David Sedaris is another guy — he doesn’t write online, of course — but David Sedaris is another guy that I like a lot. I like his writing. When it comes to online writers, the people who I really admire, I think, are a lot of the long-form journalists who tell really good stories. I always fall into those. There s guys like, I think, Michael Kruse. He’s down in Tampa Bay. He started the website Gangrey, which is promoting the idea of long-form journalism and trying to keep it alive. Those guys who do that stuff, I always admire. Kelton Reid: Let’s finish up with some fun ones. Who is your favorite literary character? I know you mentioned a few. Demian Farnworth: I would have to think of probably the most recent one — Hazel Motes, which is in Flannery O’Connor’s book. I think it’s Wise Blood. The reason I mentioned him is because a friend and I, we discussed what an awful character he is, but I think we could all could relate to him in some sense because he was religious, but he fought. I mean, he did some awful things. I think of memorable characters, and I always think of him as a memorable character. Of course, anything by Dostoevsky — any character that Dostoevsky writes about, I think, is a memorable character. Kelton Reid: If you could have dinner, all expenses paid at your favorite restaurant in the world with one author, living or dead, who would you choose? Demian Farnworth: I would probably choose William Faulkner because I think he is the writer whom I admire the most. He’s probably one of the most difficult writers to read in some cases, too, but he also wrote some very compelling, very clear, very simple stories, too. I am not sure that it would be interesting to have dinner with him because if you meet most writers, I think they’re just not socially agile people unless they get sauced up. Anyway, William Faulkner. Kelton Reid: Let’s go to who or what has been your greatest teacher in writing or life? Demian Farnworth: I have to say probably my wife because of the way she helped me develop as a writer. It’s that, “behind every great man ” And I’m not suggesting by any means that I’m a great man, but any success that I have, I can point back to my wife. She’s been the person who’s encouraged me and been the fire underneath my seat to get things done. I’ve looked at her and her encouragement and teaching me to continue in spite of obstacles and rejection and just doing things. We all deal with this stuff, but you continue to move on and not to be so overwhelmed by that stuff. She’s been a great teacher. Kelton Reid: What is your biggest writer’s fetish? Demian Farnworth: Fetish. My biggest writer’s fetish. Man Kelton Reid: If you need some help, mine is vintage typewriters. Most writers have some secret thirst. They collect first editions or self-help books. I feel like every writer I’ve ever met has some strange collection or writing-related fetish — pictures of great writers over their desks like deities. Demian Farnworth: Yeah, so this is lame, but it would have to be books. I like books, and I like to buy books, and I like to read books, and I can’t think of a better way to spend time. I know that’s not really a fetish, and I’m not really quiet about it, but it is an obsession, so I hope that counts. Kelton Reid: Maybe if they are actually made of paper, that could count as a fetish. Demian Farnworth: It really is, and I do prefer that. I do prefer the paper version. Kelton Reid: I do, too, I will admit. Can you offer any advice to fellow writers on how to keep the ink flowing and the cursor moving? A Single Word That Will Help You Keep the Cursor Moving Demian Farnworth: What’s worked for me is simply to continue to feed that fire. I read a quote the other day by Plutarch. He was an essayist, like 100 to 200 AD, so around early last millennium. He said to think of it more as a fire and that you need to kindle that fire. If you want to keep the ink going, don’t let the well run dry. Continue to read. Continue to research. Continue to be curious. The most fascinating and the best writers are those who are just insanely curious and can’t stop. I don’t offer that as advice because it’s something that you can’t really teach. It s something you couldn’t instill in people. I think it’s something that’s found within people. So they’re just naturally curious. To keep that cursor moving and the ink from going dry is simply to continue to read and to consume. The metaphor that I like to use a lot is about being a renegade sinkhole. Everything around you, observe and absorb it. Sinkholes are those phenomena in places like Florida where just out of nowhere, everything collapses into a deep hole within it. I think that as a writer, as a good writer, as you’re moving through your life, you’re absorbing and observing everything. It’s just falling into that hole for possible material in the future, whether you do it consciously or not. Kelton Reid: Wow. I just fell into a sinkhole listening to you talk about that. Finally, is there anything else that you’d like writers to know about you, including where they can connect with you online? Demian Farnworth: Yeah. Listen to Rough Draft and let me know what you think. I’d love their support. I appreciate their attention, and I do not take any of that for granted. Please find me at Rough Draft. Kelton Reid: Excellent, and that’s RoughDraft.fm on Rainmaker.FM. Thank you so much, Demian. I really appreciate your time and for creating your own writer file. I definitely look forward to seeing you soon. Demian Farnworth: Thank you. I appreciate this. Thanks for inviting me. Kelton Reid: “Give me six hours to chop down a tree, and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe” — Abraham Lincoln. Some great advice from Mr. Lincoln and also from Mr. Farnworth. Thank you. You can never over-prepare or be too curious. Thanks for flipping through Demian’s file with me. If you enjoyed the inaugural episode of The Writer Files podcast, feel free to leave a comment or question on the website at WriterFiles.fm. Please leave us a rating or review in iTunes to help other writers find us. You can find me on Twitter, @KeltonReid. Cheers! Talk to you next week.

2014 was a pivotal year for Copyblogger Media. We … Launched a Pilot program for our Rainmaker Platform using a podcast Evolved the platform to version 2.0 during the Pilot phase Arrived at the 8-figure level for annual revenue, up 34% For an added twist, we tried things, observed, learned, and made changes on the... Listen to episode