Podcasts about saas b2b

Pour l'épisode de cette semaine, je reçois Guilhem Bertholet, CEO et cofondateur d'Invox, une agence spécialisée dans le marketing B2B.Guilhem était déjà passé sur le podcast dans l'épisode #101 pour parler de content marketing. Cette fois-ci, on revient ensemble sur un sujet plus large : la demand generation, un concept encore émergent en France mais central dans les stratégies marketing des SaaS B2B.Dans cet épisode, Guilhem explique les différences entre content marketing et demand generation, pourquoi il est crucial d'éduquer ses prospects bien en amont de la décision d'achat, et comment structurer une stratégie pérenne : quels contenus produire, sur quels canaux, avec quels outils, et sur quels horizons de temps.On a aussi parlé de son retour d'expérience avec la vidéo, de la place de l'IA dans les stratégies marketing, et de Demand Generation, la conférence qu'il organise à Lyon le 1er juillet, dédiée à la demand generation B2B.Vous pouvez suivre Guilhem sur LinkedIn et découvrir la conférence sur demandgeneration.fr.Bonne écoute !Mentionnés pendant l'épisode :InvoxDemand GenerationSubmagicÉpisode #101 de SaaS Connection avec GuilhemPour soutenir SaaS Connection en 1 minute⏱ (et 2 secondes) :Abonnez-vous à SaaS Connection sur votre plateforme préférée pour ne rater aucun épisode

Invité : Gaspard Pastural, consultant en marketing spécialisé dans le positionnement et le messaging pour les entreprises SaaS B2BDans cet épisode, je m'entretiens avec Gaspard Pastural, consultant en marketing spécialisé dans le positionnement et le messaging pour les entreprises SaaS B2B. Gaspard expose son approche pour aider les startups et PME à clarifier leur message sur le marché, tout en mettant en avant les différences observées chez les entreprises francophones par rapport aux entreprises anglophones. Nous discutons des notions clés de positionnement et de messaging, des défis que rencontrent souvent les entreprises, ainsi que de l'importance d'une vision à long terme en marketing. Gaspard souligne la nécessité d'une structure web efficace et partage des conseils sur l'interaction avec les clients pour mieux comprendre leurs besoins. Il insiste également sur l'importance de cibler efficacement les segments de marché pour maximiser la valeur et établir un messaging percutant.Au menu de cette conversation entre Gaspard et Mony :0:04 Introduction0:57 Comprendre le Positionnement et le Messaging2:16 Problèmes Courants dans le B2B4:46 Vision à Long Terme en Marketing5:45 Importance des Interviews Clients12:46 Stratégies pour Améliorer le Positionnement15:27 Signes d'Alerte pour les Entreprises20:46 Optimisation du Site Web26:07 Campagnes d'Outbound et Contenu29:55 Priorisation des Cibles en Marketing32:17 Conclusion et Ressources de ContactRéférences :LinkedIn de Gaspard:https://www.linkedin.com/in/gaspardpastural/--⚡ Connecte-toi à Mony⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠ici⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.Je suis Mony Chhim et je suis freelance LinkedIn Ads pour entreprises B2B (45+ clients accélérés)

Pour en savoir plus sur Hellodarwin : https://go.hellodarwin.com/hypercroissance?utm_source=helloDarwin&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=grants-hypercroissanceComment Connect&Go a généré 1 milliard en transactions et atteint 10M$ en revenus SaaSDans cet épisode d'Hypercroissance, on reçoit Dominic Gagnon, président de Connect&Go, une scale-up montréalaise qui a su pivoter d'un modèle événementiel vers une plateforme SaaS B2B ultra-performante. En seulement 4 ans, l'entreprise a dépassé les 10M$ de revenus et traite maintenant près de 1 milliard de dollars en volume de transactions.On plonge dans : ✅ Le virage SaaS après la pandémie : stratégie, focus client, exécution✅ Les vraies raisons derrière la rentabilité repoussée à 2025✅ Pourquoi lever des fonds peut parfois nuire à la croissance✅ Comment l'intelligence artificielle est devenue un passage obligé dans les pitchs✅ Les défis de scaler une entreprise avec moins de 100 clients actifs✅ Ce que Dominic referait autrement… et ce qu'il refera encoreTu es entrepreneur, marketer ou fondateur d'une entreprise tech? Cet épisode est un concentré d'apprentissages sur la croissance SaaS, les réalités de marché en 2025 et les nouveaux modèles d'affaires.

Invité : Kamel Ben yacoub, CEO de l'agence GetUpLeadDans cet épisode, je reçois Kamel Ben yacoub, CEO de l'agence GetUpLead, spécialisée dans les LinkedIn Ads et Google Ads pour le secteur SaaS B2B. Nous explorons les dynamiques entre ces deux leviers publicitaires, en mettant en lumière comment déterminer leur pertinence selon les caractéristiques du marché et du public ciblé. Kamel aborde l'importance de la demande existante pour Google Ads et la flexibilité de LinkedIn, ainsi que les considérations clés pour maximiser l'efficacité des campagnes. La conversation se concentre également sur la synergie entre les deux plateformes et des conseils pratiques pour ceux qui ont des budgets limités, en insistant sur l'importance de capturer la demande tout en développant des audiences sur LinkedIn.Au menu de cette conversation entre Kamel et Mony :0:15 Introduction0:21 Présentation de Kamel1:32 Importance de LinkedIn et Google Ads3:24 Déterminer la pertinence des plateformes6:27 L'audience cible sur LinkedIn10:27 Le contenu et le cycle de vente14:21 Synergie entre les plateformes16:43 Approches différentes de Google et LinkedIn19:50 Retargeting efficace22:34 Erreurs fréquentes des utilisateurs29:43 Stratégies avec un petit budgetRéférences :LinkedIn de Kamel:https://www.linkedin.com/in/kamelbenSite web de l'agence:https://getuplead.com--⚡ Connecte-toi à Mony⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠ici⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.Je suis Mony Chhim et je suis freelance LinkedIn Ads pour entreprises B2B (45+ clients accélérés)

Nouveau mois : nouvelle ronde de test Facebook Ads !Dans cette vidéo de Social Scaling, on vous présente 4 nouveaux tests à appliquer sur Facebook Ads pour de meilleurs résultats dans l'agence.Au programme : une offre ultra rentable inspirée du calendrier de l'Avent, une campagne Catalogue Ads en acquisition pour détecter les produits qui performent, des créatifs simples mais puissants pour vos lead magnets, et enfin une structure de test d'audience utilisée par un SaaS B2B à plus de 60 000 $ de budget.Chaque exemple est issu de campagnes réelles gérées par notre équipe, avec des résultats analysés à l'appui. Que vous soyez e-commerçant, infopreneur ou en B2B, ces optimisations vous donneront des idées concrètes à tester sur votre propre compte.Notre agence : https://experts.j7media.com/agence/

Pour l'épisode de cette semaine, je reçois Steven Fabre, le CEO et cofondateur de Liveblocks.Liveblocks, c'est une solution qui permet aux éditeurs de logiciels, et en particulier aux SaaS B2B, d'ajouter facilement des fonctionnalités de collaboration en temps réel et d'intelligence artificielle dans leurs produits. Cela inclut les commentaires, les notifications, la présence en temps réel ou encore les éditeurs de texte collaboratifs façon Google Docs ou Figma.Au cours de notre échange, Steven revient sur son parcours, son expérience chez InVision, et la genèse de Liveblocks, née d'un besoin rencontré en interne. On parle du positionnement produit, des briques proposées (présence, collaboration, copilote IA…), du modèle de pricing, de l'approche “best-of-suite”, mais aussi de la stratégie go-to-market et de la transition d'un produit destiné aux développeurs vers une cible plus produit et business.On évoque également sa démarche très proactive aux US : ses allers-retours réguliers à San Francisco, l'organisation de dîners avec clients et prospects, et les avantages d'être “au cœur du réacteur” tech mondial.Vous pouvez suivre Steven sur LinkedIn.Bonne écoute !Mentionnés pendant l'épisode :InVisionFigmaTipTapLexicalGuillaume Moubeche sur YouTubeLivre Positioning d'Al Ries et Jack TroutPour soutenir SaaS Connection en 1 minute⏱ (et 2 secondes) :Abonnez-vous à SaaS Connection sur votre plateforme préférée pour ne rater aucun épisode

In this weeks' Scale Your Sales Podcast episode, my guest is Jan Young.   Jan Young is the founder of JanYoungCX consultancy & coaching, StepUpXchange CS executive courses with private community & CxXchange community for CS professionals. She is an award-winning CS leader of 2 successfully exited startups. She brings her cross-disciplinary approach to SaaS B2B tech and Customer Led Growth. Jan is on a mission to transform CS Leaders into Business Leaders and align GTM teams.   In today's episode of Scale Your Sales podcast, Jan shares expertise in transforming customer success leadership and aligning go-to-market strategies for business growth. This discussion covers the critical role of CS leaders in market alignment, the impact of data integration and AI on revenue operations, and the importance of breaking down organizational silos. Jan provides insights on driving profitability in customer interactions and creating a seamless customer journey.   Welcome to Scale Your Sales Podcast, Jan Young.     Timestamps: 00:00 Aligning GTM for Customer Experience 05:16 Balancing Customer Value and Profitability 09:34 Fostering Success Through Collaboration 13:42 Shifting to Profitable, Efficient Growth 15:03 Rethinking Customer Engagement Strategies 18:42 Optimizing Customer Success Milestones 22:47 Earning Trust in Sales Delivery 26:51 Sales vs. Customer Success Gender Dynamics 28:52 CS Careers Foster Customer Relationships 31:27 Embracing AI for Business Efficiency 35:07 Adapting to Industry Transformation 38:00 Community and Courage     https://www.linkedin.com/in/jan-young-cx/ https://x.com/janyoungcx     Janice B Gordon is the award-winning Customer Growth Expert and Scale Your Sales Framework founder. She is by LinkedIn Sales 15 Innovating Sales Influencers to Follow 2021, the Top 50 Global Thought Leaders and Influencers on Customer Experience Nov 2020 and 150 Women B2B Thought Leaders You Should Follow in 2021. Janice helps companies worldwide to reimagine revenue growth thought customer experience and sales.   Book Janice to speak virtually at your next event: https://janicebgordon.com   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/janice-b-gordon/   Twitter: https://twitter.com/JaniceBGordon   Scale Your Sales Podcast: https://scaleyoursales.co.uk/podcast   More on the blog: https://scaleyoursales.co.uk/blog   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/janicebgordon   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ScaleYourSales   And more! Visit our podcast website https://scaleyoursales.co.uk/podcast/ to watch or listen.

Au programme :• 03:26 - Le contexte 2024• 06:30 - Parcours de l'invité• 09:52 - Sa plus belle vente : l'entrée d'un nouvel actionnaire• 14:27 - Exemple pratique• 15:59 - Organisation commerciale• 26:59 - Uniformiser les pratiques ?• 32:10 - Mettre ses commerciaux à la prospection• 38:21 - Construire son script de vente• 41:38 - Construire un plan de rémunération variable qui renforce les performances• 46:28 - Conseils de finEn bref :Pour ce onzième épisode de notre septième saison, nous avons eu le plaisir de recevoir Jérôme Zamy, Chief Sales & Marketing Officer chez Orisha.Jérôme a d'abord évolué dans le marketing avant d'être irrémédiablement séduit par l'entrain et l'adrénaline du métier de commercial.Depuis plus de 5 ans, il a pris la tête des équipes commerciales et marketing d'Orisha, acteur majeur du SaaS B2B en Europe à la croissance - notamment externe - hallucinante.Orisha, c'est désormais 50 000 clients répartis dans des verticales clients comme la distribution, l'immobilier ou encore la santé. Une position de leader soutenue par une stratégie ambitieuse : allier développement organique et acquisitions successives.Par exemple, Orisha a réalisé 6 acquisitions en 2024 !Ces dernières années, l'entreprise a donc connu une ascension fulgurante, passant de 57 millions d'euros de chiffre d'affaires en 2019 à 300 millions aujourd'hui, avec une équipe qui compte désormais 150 commerciaux et 2 000 collaborateurs.Mais structurer une force de vente tout en maintenant un rythme de croissance aussi soutenu demande des ajustements aussi réguliers que bien réfléchis.Dans cet épisode, Jérôme partage donc les leviers qui lui ont permis d'aligner les équipes commerciales et marketing, d'optimiser l'efficacité commerciale et de continuer d'adapter les process sans brider la performance.Voici nos questions principales :- Avec une croissance exceptionnelle qui s'est faite, aussi et surtout, par beaucoup d'acquisitions et de croissance externe : quelles sont les méthodes de vente et les stratégies commerciales qui vous ont permis d'accompagner et d'incorporer ces dynamiques ?- Avec des équipes marketing et commerciales souvent alignées grâce à la data et un CRM partagé, quelles pratiques concrètes avez-vous mises en place pour maximiser l'efficacité commerciale et garantir un traitement optimal des leads générés par le marketing ?- Et, enfin : former des commerciaux à la prospection n'est pas toujours évident, surtout lorsqu'ils sont plus à l'aise en fidélisation. Quelles sont les clés pour aider des “cueilleurs” à se muer en véritables chasseurs, et comment est-ce que vous avez motivé vos équipes à adopter cette posture proactive ?En une phrase : Jérôme nous livre une véritable leçon de structuration commerciale en hypercroissance, en partageant des méthodes éprouvées pour scaler sans ralentir.Bonne écoute, et Vive la Vente !

In this episode of Pathmonk Presents, we welcome Shiro Hatori, Director of Demand Generation at Concept3D.  Concept3D is a B2B SaaS company specializing in interactive maps, virtual tours, and online event calendars for higher education institutions. Shiro shares insights on how their solutions help marketing, communications, and enrollment teams improve efficiency and enhance user experiences for students and parents. He discusses the shift in their client acquisition strategy, the launch of his own podcast, and valuable tips for B2B marketers looking to leverage podcasting for content creation, networking, and account-based marketing.  Shiro also emphasizes the importance of ethical marketing and overcoming imposter syndrome in the industry.  

Waking Dreams Media helps Tech and Life Science companies turn their complex products into simple videos that customers and investors love. Then, they help them scale their online audience with content. Connect with Luke

Pricing and packaging can either bog down your go-to-market engine or fuel it to peak performance.This week's SaaS Backwards podcast features Dan Balcauski, Founder and Chief Pricing Officer at Product Tranquility, a consultancy that helps high-volume B2B SaaS CEOs define pricing and packaging for new products. In this episode, Dan discusses the critical role pricing plays in a SaaS business model and why leadership teams must view it as a dynamic lever, not a "set-it-and-forget-it" element. He dispels the common myth that success hinges solely on what you charge, emphasizing instead that who and how you charge are the real determinants of success.Breaking this down, Dan walks through the four key elements of SaaS packaging: price metric, price model, offer configurations, and price fences.Our conversation also explores how to conduct a pricing study, realigning pricing strategies, AI's role in pricing decisions, and the ever-debated topic: should pricing be displayed on the website?This episode offers actionable insights for SaaS leaders looking to harness pricing as a powerful tool for growth and market alignment.Key takeaways from this episode:The impact of pricing and packaging on revenue, profitability, and valuationWhy pricing is a critical lever for growth in SaaS businesses that shouldn't be overlookedSigns a new CMO or CRO should look for to determine if pricing needs attention at a prospective employerOther resources to check out:Interview with Vinay Bhagat, Founder and CEO of TrustRadius who publishes a yearly report about how B2B buyer behavior is changing.The Lead Gen Mistake I Guarantee You're Making – how to create content that better identifies intent from today's b2b buyer.And, if you want an outside look at your content with actionable advice, take advantage of our Content Audit. Valued at $20K in free consulting---Thanks for listening to the SaaS Backwards Podcast, brought to you by Austin Lawrence Group. We help SaaS firms reduce churn, accelerate sales, and generate demand. Learn more at AustinLawrence.com.---Is your messaging a sales ally or sneaky saboteur? Let us help with our free messaging audit.We'll look at your website's messaging, content, and conversion potential from the eyes of today's buyer and deliver a presentation with new combinations to more sales conversations and demos. And the best part? It's absolutely free. Get started today!

We are recording our next big recap episode and taking questions! Submit questions and messages on Speakpipe here for a chance to appear on the show!Also subscribe to our calendar for our Singapore, NeurIPS, and all upcoming meetups!In our first ever episode with Logan Kilpatrick we called out the two hottest LLM frameworks at the time: LangChain and Dust. We've had Harrison from LangChain on twice (as a guest and as a co-host), and we've now finally come full circle as Stanislas from Dust joined us in the studio.After stints at Oracle and Stripe, Stan had joined OpenAI to work on mathematical reasoning capabilities. He describes his time at OpenAI as "the PhD I always wanted to do" while acknowledging the challenges of research work: "You're digging into a field all day long for weeks and weeks, and you find something, you get super excited for 12 seconds. And at the 13 seconds, you're like, 'oh, yeah, that was obvious.' And you go back to digging." This experience, combined with early access to GPT-4's capabilities, shaped his decision to start Dust: "If we believe in AGI and if we believe the timelines might not be too long, it's actually the last train leaving the station to start a company. After that, it's going to be computers all the way down."The History of DustDust's journey can be broken down into three phases:* Developer Framework (2022): Initially positioned as a competitor to LangChain, Dust started as a developer tooling platform. While both were open source, their approaches differed – LangChain focused on broad community adoption and integration as a pure developer experience, while Dust emphasized UI-driven development and better observability that wasn't just `print` statements.* Browser Extension (Early 2023): The company pivoted to building XP1, a browser extension that could interact with web content. This experiment helped validate user interaction patterns with AI, even while using less capable models than GPT-4.* Enterprise Platform (Current): Today, Dust has evolved into an infrastructure platform for deploying AI agents within companies, with impressive metrics like 88% daily active users in some deployments.The Case for Being HorizontalThe big discussion for early stage companies today is whether or not to be horizontal or vertical. Since models are so good at general tasks, a lot of companies are building vertical products that take care of a workflow end-to-end in order to offer more value and becoming more of “Services as Software”. Dust on the other hand is a platform for the users to build their own experiences, which has had a few advantages:* Maximum Penetration: Dust reports 60-70% weekly active users across entire companies, demonstrating the potential reach of horizontal solutions rather than selling into a single team.* Emergent Use Cases: By allowing non-technical users to create agents, Dust enables use cases to emerge organically from actual business needs rather than prescribed solutions.* Infrastructure Value: The platform approach creates lasting value through maintained integrations and connections, similar to how Stripe's value lies in maintaining payment infrastructure. Rather than relying on third-party integration providers, Dust maintains its own connections to ensure proper handling of different data types and structures.The Vertical ChallengeHowever, this approach comes with trade-offs:* Harder Go-to-Market: As Stan talked about: "We spike at penetration... but it makes our go-to-market much harder. Vertical solutions have a go-to-market that is much easier because they're like, 'oh, I'm going to solve the lawyer stuff.'"* Complex Infrastructure: Building a horizontal platform requires maintaining numerous integrations and handling diverse data types appropriately – from structured Salesforce data to unstructured Notion pages. As you scale integrations, the cost of maintaining them also scales. * Product Surface Complexity: Creating an interface that's both powerful and accessible to non-technical users requires careful design decisions, down to avoiding technical terms like "system prompt" in favor of "instructions." The Future of AI PlatformsStan initially predicted we'd see the first billion-dollar single-person company in 2023 (a prediction later echoed by Sam Altman), but he's now more focused on a different milestone: billion-dollar companies with engineering teams of just 20 people, enabled by AI assistance.This vision aligns with Dust's horizontal platform approach – building the infrastructure that allows small teams to achieve outsized impact through AI augmentation. Rather than replacing entire job functions (the vertical approach), they're betting on augmenting existing workflows across organizations.Full YouTube EpisodeChapters* 00:00:00 Introductions* 00:04:33 Joining OpenAI from Paris* 00:09:54 Research evolution and compute allocation at OpenAI* 00:13:12 Working with Ilya Sutskever and OpenAI's vision* 00:15:51 Leaving OpenAI to start Dust* 00:18:15 Early focus on browser extension and WebGPT-like functionality* 00:20:20 Dust as the infrastructure for agents* 00:24:03 Challenges of building with early AI models* 00:28:17 LLMs and Workflow Automation* 00:35:28 Building dependency graphs of agents* 00:37:34 Simulating API endpoints* 00:40:41 State of AI models* 00:43:19 Running evals* 00:46:36 Challenges in building AI agents infra* 00:49:21 Buy vs. build decisions for infrastructure components* 00:51:02 Future of SaaS and AI's Impact on Software* 00:53:07 The single employee $1B company race* 00:56:32 Horizontal vs. vertical approaches to AI agentsTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.Swyx [00:00:11]: Hey, and today we're in a studio with Stanislas, welcome.Stan [00:00:14]: Thank you very much for having me.Swyx [00:00:16]: Visiting from Paris.Stan [00:00:17]: Paris.Swyx [00:00:18]: And you have had a very distinguished career. It's very hard to summarize, but you went to college in both Ecopolytechnique and Stanford, and then you worked in a number of places, Oracle, Totems, Stripe, and then OpenAI pre-ChatGPT. We'll talk, we'll spend a little bit of time about that. About two years ago, you left OpenAI to start Dust. I think you were one of the first OpenAI alum founders.Stan [00:00:40]: Yeah, I think it was about at the same time as the Adept guys, so that first wave.Swyx [00:00:46]: Yeah, and people really loved our David episode. We love a few sort of OpenAI stories, you know, for back in the day, like we're talking about pre-recording. Probably the statute of limitations on some of those stories has expired, so you can talk a little bit more freely without them coming after you. But maybe we'll just talk about, like, what was your journey into AI? You know, you were at Stripe for almost five years, there are a lot of Stripe alums going into OpenAI. I think the Stripe culture has come into OpenAI quite a bit.Stan [00:01:11]: Yeah, so I think the buses of Stripe people really started flowing in, I guess, after ChatGPT. But, yeah, my journey into AI is a... I mean, Greg Brockman. Yeah, yeah. From Greg, of course. And Daniela, actually, back in the days, Daniela Amodei.Swyx [00:01:27]: Yes, she was COO, I mean, she is COO, yeah. She had a pretty high job at OpenAI at the time, yeah, for sure.Stan [00:01:34]: My journey started as anybody else, you're fascinated with computer science and you want to make them think, it's awesome, but it doesn't work. I mean, it was a long time ago, it was like maybe 16, so it was 25 years ago. Then the first big exposure to AI would be at Stanford, and I'm going to, like, disclose a whole lamb, because at the time it was a class taught by Andrew Ng, and there was no deep learning. It was half features for vision and a star algorithm. So it was fun. But it was the early days of deep learning. At the time, I think a few years after, it was the first project at Google. But you know, that cat face or the human face trained from many images. I went to, hesitated doing a PhD, more in systems, eventually decided to go into getting a job. Went at Oracle, started a company, did a gazillion mistakes, got acquired by Stripe, worked with Greg Buckman there. And at the end of Stripe, I started interesting myself in AI again, felt like it was the time, you had the Atari games, you had the self-driving craziness at the time. And I started exploring projects, it felt like the Atari games were incredible, but there were still games. And I was looking into exploring projects that would have an impact on the world. And so I decided to explore three things, self-driving cars, cybersecurity and AI, and math and AI. It's like I sing it by a decreasing order of impact on the world, I guess.Swyx [00:03:01]: Discovering new math would be very foundational.Stan [00:03:03]: It is extremely foundational, but it's not as direct as driving people around.Swyx [00:03:07]: Sorry, you're doing this at Stripe, you're like thinking about your next move.Stan [00:03:09]: No, it was at Stripe, kind of a bit of time where I started exploring. I did a bunch of work with friends on trying to get RC cars to drive autonomously. Almost started a company in France or Europe about self-driving trucks. We decided to not go for it because it was probably very operational. And I think the idea of the company, of the team wasn't there. And also I realized that if I wake up a day and because of a bug I wrote, I killed a family, it would be a bad experience. And so I just decided like, no, that's just too crazy. And then I explored cybersecurity with a friend. We're trying to apply transformers to cut fuzzing. So cut fuzzing, you have kind of an algorithm that goes really fast and tries to mutate the inputs of a library to find bugs. And we tried to apply a transformer to that and do reinforcement learning with the signal of how much you propagate within the binary. Didn't work at all because the transformers are so slow compared to evolutionary algorithms that it kind of didn't work. Then I started interested in math and AI and started working on SAT solving with AI. And at the same time, OpenAI was kind of starting the reasoning team that were tackling that project as well. I was in touch with Greg and eventually got in touch with Ilya and finally found my way to OpenAI. I don't know how much you want to dig into that. The way to find your way to OpenAI when you're in Paris was kind of an interesting adventure as well.Swyx [00:04:33]: Please. And I want to note, this was a two-month journey. You did all this in two months.Stan [00:04:38]: The search.Swyx [00:04:40]: Your search for your next thing, because you left in July 2019 and then you joined OpenAI in September.Stan [00:04:45]: I'm going to be ashamed to say that.Swyx [00:04:47]: You were searching before. I was searching before.Stan [00:04:49]: I mean, it's normal. No, the truth is that I moved back to Paris through Stripe and I just felt the hardship of being remote from your team nine hours away. And so it kind of freed a bit of time for me to start the exploration before. Sorry, Patrick. Sorry, John.Swyx [00:05:05]: Hopefully they're listening. So you joined OpenAI from Paris and from like, obviously you had worked with Greg, but notStan [00:05:13]: anyone else. No. Yeah. So I had worked with Greg, but not Ilya, but I had started chatting with Ilya and Ilya was kind of excited because he knew that I was a good engineer through Greg, I presume, but I was not a trained researcher, didn't do a PhD, never did research. And I started chatting and he was excited all the way to the point where he was like, hey, come pass interviews, it's going to be fun. I think he didn't care where I was, he just wanted to try working together. So I go to SF, go through the interview process, get an offer. And so I get Bob McGrew on the phone for the first time, he's like, hey, Stan, it's awesome. You've got an offer. When are you coming to SF? I'm like, hey, it's awesome. I'm not coming to the SF. I'm based in Paris and we just moved. He was like, hey, it's awesome. Well, you don't have an offer anymore. Oh, my God. No, it wasn't as hard as that. But that's basically the idea. And it took me like maybe a couple more time to keep chatting and they eventually decided to try a contractor set up. And that's how I kind of started working at OpenAI, officially as a contractor, but in practice really felt like being an employee.Swyx [00:06:14]: What did you work on?Stan [00:06:15]: So it was solely focused on math and AI. And in particular in the application, so the study of the larger grid models, mathematical reasoning capabilities, and in particular in the context of formal mathematics. The motivation was simple, transformers are very creative, but yet they do mistakes. Formal math systems are of the ability to verify a proof and the tactics they can use to solve problems are very mechanical, so you miss the creativity. And so the idea was to try to explore both together. You would get the creativity of the LLMs and the kind of verification capabilities of the formal system. A formal system, just to give a little bit of context, is a system in which a proof is a program and the formal system is a type system, a type system that is so evolved that you can verify the program. If the type checks, it means that the program is correct.Swyx [00:07:06]: Is the verification much faster than actually executing the program?Stan [00:07:12]: Verification is instantaneous, basically. So the truth is that what you code in involves tactics that may involve computation to search for solutions. So it's not instantaneous. You do have to do the computation to expand the tactics into the actual proof. The verification of the proof at the very low level is instantaneous.Swyx [00:07:32]: How quickly do you run into like, you know, halting problem PNP type things, like impossibilities where you're just like that?Stan [00:07:39]: I mean, you don't run into it at the time. It was really trying to solve very easy problems. So I think the... Can you give an example of easy? Yeah, so that's the mass benchmark that everybody knows today. The Dan Hendricks one. The Dan Hendricks one, yeah. And I think it was the low end part of the mass benchmark at the time, because that mass benchmark includes AMC problems, AMC 8, AMC 10, 12. So these are the easy ones. Then AIME problems, somewhat harder, and some IMO problems, like Crazy Arm.Swyx [00:08:07]: For our listeners, we covered this in our Benchmarks 101 episode. AMC is literally the grade of like high school, grade 8, grade 10, grade 12. So you can solve this. Just briefly to mention this, because I don't think we'll touch on this again. There's a bit of work with like Lean, and then with, you know, more recently with DeepMind doing like scoring like silver on the IMO. Any commentary on like how math has evolved from your early work to today?Stan [00:08:34]: I mean, that result is mind blowing. I mean, from my perspective, spent three years on that. At the same time, Guillaume Lampe in Paris, we were both in Paris, actually. He was at FAIR, was working on some problems. We were pushing the boundaries, and the goal was the IMO. And we cracked a few problems here and there. But the idea of getting a medal at an IMO was like just remote. So this is an impressive result. And we can, I think the DeepMind team just did a good job of scaling. I think there's nothing too magical in their approach, even if it hasn't been published. There's a Dan Silver talk from seven days ago where it goes a little bit into more details. It feels like there's nothing magical there. It's really applying reinforcement learning and scaling up the amount of data that can generate through autoformalization. So we can dig into what autoformalization means if you want.Alessio [00:09:26]: Let's talk about the tail end, maybe, of the OpenAI. So you joined, and you're like, I'm going to work on math and do all of these things. I saw on one of your blog posts, you mentioned you fine-tuned over 10,000 models at OpenAI using 10 million A100 hours. How did the research evolve from the GPD 2, and then getting closer to DaVinci 003? And then you left just before ChatGPD was released, but tell people a bit more about the research path that took you there.Stan [00:09:54]: I can give you my perspective of it. I think at OpenAI, there's always been a large chunk of the compute that was reserved to train the GPTs, which makes sense. So it was pre-entropic splits. Most of the compute was going to a product called Nest, which was basically GPT-3. And then you had a bunch of, let's say, remote, not core research teams that were trying to explore maybe more specific problems or maybe the algorithm part of it. The interesting part, I don't know if it was where your question was going, is that in those labs, you're managing researchers. So by definition, you shouldn't be managing them. But in that space, there's a managing tool that is great, which is compute allocation. Basically by managing the compute allocation, you can message the team of where you think the priority should go. And so it was really a question of, you were free as a researcher to work on whatever you wanted. But if it was not aligned with OpenAI mission, and that's fair, you wouldn't get the compute allocation. As it happens, solving math was very much aligned with the direction of OpenAI. And so I was lucky to generally get the compute I needed to make good progress.Swyx [00:11:06]: What do you need to show as incremental results to get funded for further results?Stan [00:11:12]: It's an imperfect process because there's a bit of a... If you're working on math and AI, obviously there's kind of a prior that it's going to be aligned with the company. So it's much easier than to go into something much more risky, much riskier, I guess. You have to show incremental progress, I guess. It's like you ask for a certain amount of compute and you deliver a few weeks after and you demonstrate that you have a progress. Progress might be a positive result. Progress might be a strong negative result. And a strong negative result is actually often much harder to get or much more interesting than a positive result. And then it generally goes into, as any organization, you would have people finding your project or any other project cool and fancy. And so you would have that kind of phase of growing up compute allocation for it all the way to a point. And then maybe you reach an apex and then maybe you go back mostly to zero and restart the process because you're going in a different direction or something else. That's how I felt. Explore, exploit. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It's a reinforcement learning approach.Swyx [00:12:14]: Classic PhD student search process.Alessio [00:12:17]: And you were reporting to Ilya, like the results you were kind of bringing back to him or like what's the structure? It's almost like when you're doing such cutting edge research, you need to report to somebody who is actually really smart to understand that the direction is right.Stan [00:12:29]: So we had a reasoning team, which was working on reasoning, obviously, and so math in general. And that team had a manager, but Ilya was extremely involved in the team as an advisor, I guess. Since he brought me in OpenAI, I was lucky to mostly during the first years to have kind of a direct access to him. He would really coach me as a trainee researcher, I guess, with good engineering skills. And Ilya, I think at OpenAI, he was the one showing the North Star, right? He was his job and I think he really enjoyed it and he did it super well, was going through the teams and saying, this is where we should be going and trying to, you know, flock the different teams together towards an objective.Swyx [00:13:12]: I would say like the public perception of him is that he was the strongest believer in scaling. Oh, yeah. Obviously, he has always pursued the compression thesis. You have worked with him personally, what does the public not know about how he works?Stan [00:13:26]: I think he's really focused on building the vision and communicating the vision within the company, which was extremely useful. I was personally surprised that he spent so much time, you know, working on communicating that vision and getting the teams to work together versus...Swyx [00:13:40]: To be specific, vision is AGI? Oh, yeah.Stan [00:13:42]: Vision is like, yeah, it's the belief in compression and scanning computes. I remember when I started working on the Reasoning team, the excitement was really about scaling the compute around Reasoning and that was really the belief we wanted to ingrain in the team. And that's what has been useful to the team and with the DeepMind results shows that it was the right approach with the success of GPT-4 and stuff shows that it was the right approach.Swyx [00:14:06]: Was it according to the neural scaling laws, the Kaplan paper that was published?Stan [00:14:12]: I think it was before that, because those ones came with GPT-3, basically at the time of GPT-3 being released or being ready internally. But before that, there really was a strong belief in scale. I think it was just the belief that the transformer was a generic enough architecture that you could learn anything. And that was just a question of scaling.Alessio [00:14:33]: Any other fun stories you want to tell? Sam Altman, Greg, you know, anything.Stan [00:14:37]: Weirdly, I didn't work that much with Greg when I was at OpenAI. He had always been mostly focused on training the GPTs and rightfully so. One thing about Sam Altman, he really impressed me because when I joined, he had joined not that long ago and it felt like he was kind of a very high level CEO. And I was mind blown by how deep he was able to go into the subjects within a year or something, all the way to a situation where when I was having lunch by year two, I was at OpenAI with him. He would just quite know deeply what I was doing. With no ML background. Yeah, with no ML background, but I didn't have any either, so I guess that explains why. But I think it's a question about, you don't necessarily need to understand the very technicalities of how things are done, but you need to understand what's the goal and what's being done and what are the recent results and all of that in you. And we could have kind of a very productive discussion. And that really impressed me, given the size at the time of OpenAI, which was not negligible.Swyx [00:15:44]: Yeah. I mean, you've been a, you were a founder before, you're a founder now, and you've seen Sam as a founder. How has he affected you as a founder?Stan [00:15:51]: I think having that capability of changing the scale of your attention in the company, because most of the time you operate at a very high level, but being able to go deep down and being in the known of what's happening on the ground is something that I feel is really enlightening. That's not a place in which I ever was as a founder, because first company, we went all the way to 10 people. Current company, there's 25 of us. So the high level, the sky and the ground are pretty much at the same place. No, you're being too humble.Swyx [00:16:21]: I mean, Stripe was also like a huge rocket ship.Stan [00:16:23]: Stripe, I was a founder. So I was, like at OpenAI, I was really happy being on the ground, pushing the machine, making it work. Yeah.Swyx [00:16:31]: Last OpenAI question. The Anthropic split you mentioned, you were around for that. Very dramatic. David also left around that time, you left. This year, we've also had a similar management shakeup, let's just call it. Can you compare what it was like going through that split during that time? And then like, does that have any similarities now? Like, are we going to see a new Anthropic emerge from these folks that just left?Stan [00:16:54]: That I really, really don't know. At the time, the split was pretty surprising because they had been trying GPT-3, it was a success. And to be completely transparent, I wasn't in the weeds of the splits. What I understood of it is that there was a disagreement of the commercialization of that technology. I think the focal point of that disagreement was the fact that we started working on the API and wanted to make those models available through an API. Is that really the core disagreement? I don't know.Swyx [00:17:25]: Was it safety?Stan [00:17:26]: Was it commercialization?Swyx [00:17:27]: Or did they just want to start a company?Stan [00:17:28]: Exactly. Exactly. That I don't know. But I think what I was surprised of is how quickly OpenAI recovered at the time. And I think it's just because we were mostly a research org and the mission was so clear that some divergence in some teams, some people leave, the mission is still there. We have the compute. We have a site. So it just keeps going.Swyx [00:17:50]: Very deep bench. Like just a lot of talent. Yeah.Alessio [00:17:53]: So that was the OpenAI part of the history. Exactly. So then you leave OpenAI in September 2022. And I would say in Silicon Valley, the two hottest companies at the time were you and Lanktrain. What was that start like and why did you decide to start with a more developer focused kind of like an AI engineer tool rather than going back into some more research and something else?Stan [00:18:15]: Yeah. First, I'm not a trained researcher. So going through OpenAI was really kind of the PhD I always wanted to do. But research is hard. You're digging into a field all day long for weeks and weeks and weeks, and you find something, you get super excited for 12 seconds. And at the 13 seconds, you're like, oh, yeah, that was obvious. And you go back to digging. I'm not a trained, like formally trained researcher, and it wasn't kind of a necessarily an ambition of me of creating, of having a research career. And I felt the hardness of it. I enjoyed a lot of like that a ton. But at the time, I decided that I wanted to go back to something more productive. And the other fun motivation was like, I mean, if we believe in AGI and if we believe the timelines might not be too long, it's actually the last train leaving the station to start a company. After that, it's going to be computers all the way down. And so that was kind of the true motivation for like trying to go there. So that's kind of the core motivation at the beginning of personally. And the motivation for starting a company was pretty simple. I had seen GPT-4 internally at the time, it was September 2022. So it was pre-GPT, but GPT-4 was ready since, I mean, I'd been ready for a few months internally. I was like, okay, that's obvious, the capabilities are there to create an insane amount of value to the world. And yet the deployment is not there yet. The revenue of OpenAI at the time were ridiculously small compared to what it is today. So the thesis was, there's probably a lot to be done at the product level to unlock the usage.Alessio [00:19:49]: Yeah. Let's talk a bit more about the form factor, maybe. I think one of the first successes you had was kind of like the WebGPT-like thing, like using the models to traverse the web and like summarize things. And the browser was really the interface. Why did you start with the browser? Like what was it important? And then you built XP1, which was kind of like the browser extension.Stan [00:20:09]: So the starting point at the time was, if you wanted to talk about LLMs, it was still a rather small community, a community of mostly researchers and to some extent, very early adopters, very early engineers. It was almost inconceivable to just build a product and go sell it to the enterprise, though at the time there was a few companies doing that. The one on marketing, I don't remember its name, Jasper. But so the natural first intention, the first, first, first intention was to go to the developers and try to create tooling for them to create product on top of those models. And so that's what Dust was originally. It was quite different than Lanchain, and Lanchain just beat the s**t out of us, which is great. It's a choice.Swyx [00:20:53]: You were cloud, in closed source. They were open source.Stan [00:20:56]: Yeah. So technically we were open source and we still are open source, but I think that doesn't really matter. I had the strong belief from my research time that you cannot create an LLM-based workflow on just one example. Basically, if you just have one example, you overfit. So as you develop your interaction, your orchestration around the LLM, you need a dozen examples. Obviously, if you're running a dozen examples on a multi-step workflow, you start paralyzing stuff. And if you do that in the console, you just have like a messy stream of tokens going out and it's very hard to observe what's going there. And so the idea was to go with an UI so that you could kind of introspect easily the output of each interaction with the model and dig into there through an UI, which is-Swyx [00:21:42]: Was that open source? I actually didn't come across it.Stan [00:21:44]: Oh yeah, it wasn't. I mean, Dust is entirely open source even today. We're not going for an open source-Swyx [00:21:48]: If it matters, I didn't know that.Stan [00:21:49]: No, no, no, no, no. The reason why is because we're not open source because we're not doing an open source strategy. It's not an open source go-to-market at all. We're open source because we can and it's fun.Swyx [00:21:59]: Open source is marketing. You have all the downsides of open source, which is like people can clone you.Stan [00:22:03]: But I think that downside is a big fallacy. Okay. Yes, anybody can clone Dust today, but the value of Dust is not the current state. The value of Dust is the number of eyeballs and hands of developers that are creating to it in the future. And so yes, anybody can clone it today, but that wouldn't change anything. There is some value in being open source. In a discussion with the security team, you can be extremely transparent and just show the code. When you have discussion with users and there's a bug or a feature missing, you can just point to the issue, show the pull request, show the, show the, exactly, oh, PR welcome. That doesn't happen that much, but you can show the progress if the person that you're chatting with is a little bit technical, they really enjoy seeing the pull request advancing and seeing all the way to deploy. And then the downsides are mostly around security. You never want to do security by obfuscation. But the truth is that your vector of attack is facilitated by you being open source. But at the same time, it's a good thing because if you're doing anything like a bug bountying or stuff like that, you just give much more tools to the bug bountiers so that their output is much better. So there's many, many, many trade-offs. I don't believe in the value of the code base per se. I think it's really the people that are on the code base that have the value and go to market and the product and all of those things that are around the code base. Obviously, that's not true for every code base. If you're working on a very secret kernel to accelerate the inference of LLMs, I would buy that you don't want to be open source. But for product stuff, I really think there's very little risk. Yeah.Alessio [00:23:39]: I signed up for XP1, I was looking, January 2023. I think at the time you were on DaVinci 003. Given that you had seen GPD 4, how did you feel having to push a product out that was using this model that was so inferior? And you're like, please, just use it today. I promise it's going to get better. Just overall, as a founder, how do you build something that maybe doesn't quite work with the model today, but you're just expecting the new model to be better?Stan [00:24:03]: Yeah, so actually, XP1 was even on a smaller one that was the post-GDPT release, small version, so it was... Ada, Babbage... No, no, no, not that far away. But it was the small version of GDPT, basically. I don't remember its name. Yes, you have a frustration there. But at the same time, I think XP1 was designed, was an experiment, but was designed as a way to be useful at the current capability of the model. If you just want to extract data from a LinkedIn page, that model was just fine. If you want to summarize an article on a newspaper, that model was just fine. And so it was really a question of trying to find a product that works with the current capability, knowing that you will always have tailwinds as models get better and faster and cheaper. So that was kind of a... There's a bit of a frustration because you know what's out there and you know that you don't have access to it yet. It's also interesting to try to find a product that works with the current capability.Alessio [00:24:55]: And we highlighted XP1 in our anatomy of autonomy post in April of last year, which was, you know, where are all the agents, right? So now we spent 30 minutes getting to what you're building now. So you basically had a developer framework, then you had a browser extension, then you had all these things, and then you kind of got to where Dust is today. So maybe just give people an overview of what Dust is today and the courtesies behind it. Yeah, of course.Stan [00:25:20]: So Dust, we really want to build the infrastructure so that companies can deploy agents within their teams. We are horizontal by nature because we strongly believe in the emergence of use cases from the people having access to creating an agent that don't need to be developers. They have to be thinkers. They have to be curious. But anybody can create an agent that will solve an operational thing that they're doing in their day-to-day job. And to make those agents useful, there's two focus, which is interesting. The first one is an infrastructure focus. You have to build the pipes so that the agent has access to the data. You have to build the pipes such that the agents can take action, can access the web, et cetera. So that's really an infrastructure play. Maintaining connections to Notion, Slack, GitHub, all of them is a lot of work. It is boring work, boring infrastructure work, but that's something that we know is extremely valuable in the same way that Stripe is extremely valuable because it maintains the pipes. And we have that dual focus because we're also building the product for people to use it. And there it's fascinating because everything started from the conversational interface, obviously, which is a great starting point. But we're only scratching the surface, right? I think we are at the pong level of LLM productization. And we haven't invented the C3. We haven't invented Counter-Strike. We haven't invented Cyberpunk 2077. So this is really our mission is to really create the product that lets people equip themselves to just get away all the work that can be automated or assisted by LLMs.Alessio [00:26:57]: And can you just comment on different takes that people had? So maybe the most open is like auto-GPT. It's just kind of like just trying to do anything. It's like it's all magic. There's no way for you to do anything. Then you had the ADAPT, you know, we had David on the podcast. They're very like super hands-on with each individual customer to build super tailored. How do you decide where to draw the line between this is magic? This is exposed to you, especially in a market where most people don't know how to build with AI at all. So if you expect them to do the thing, they're probably not going to do it. Yeah, exactly.Stan [00:27:29]: So the auto-GPT approach obviously is extremely exciting, but we know that the agentic capability of models are not quite there yet. It just gets lost. So we're starting, we're starting where it works. Same with the XP one. And where it works is pretty simple. It's like simple workflows that involve a couple tools where you don't even need to have the model decide which tools it's used in the sense of you just want people to put it in the instructions. It's like take that page, do that search, pick up that document, do the work that I want in the format I want, and give me the results. There's no smartness there, right? In terms of orchestrating the tools, it's mostly using English for people to program a workflow where you don't have the constraint of having compatible API between the two.Swyx [00:28:17]: That kind of personal automation, would you say it's kind of like an LLM Zapier type ofStan [00:28:22]: thing?Swyx [00:28:22]: Like if this, then that, and then, you know, do this, then this. You're programming with English?Stan [00:28:28]: So you're programming with English. So you're just saying, oh, do this and then that. You can even create some form of APIs. You say, when I give you the command X, do this. When I give you the command Y, do this. And you describe the workflow. But you don't have to create boxes and create the workflow explicitly. It just needs to describe what are the tasks supposed to be and make the tool available to the agent. The tool can be a semantic search. The tool can be querying into a structured database. The tool can be searching on the web. And obviously, the interesting tools that we're only starting to scratch are actually creating external actions like reimbursing something on Stripe, sending an email, clicking on a button in the admin or something like that.Swyx [00:29:11]: Do you maintain all these integrations?Stan [00:29:13]: Today, we maintain most of the integrations. We do always have an escape hatch for people to kind of custom integrate. But the reality is that the reality of the market today is that people just want it to work, right? And so it's mostly us maintaining the integration. As an example, a very good source of information that is tricky to productize is Salesforce. Because Salesforce is basically a database and a UI. And they do the f**k they want with it. And so every company has different models and stuff like that. So right now, we don't support it natively. And the type of support or real native support will be slightly more complex than just osing into it, like is the case with Slack as an example. Because it's probably going to be, oh, you want to connect your Salesforce to us? Give us the SQL. That's the Salesforce QL language. Give us the queries you want us to run on it and inject in the context of dust. So that's interesting how not only integrations are cool, and some of them require a bit of work on the user. And for some of them that are really valuable to our users, but we don't support yet, they can just build them internally and push the data to us.Swyx [00:30:18]: I think I understand the Salesforce thing. But let me just clarify, are you using browser automation because there's no API for something?Stan [00:30:24]: No, no, no, no. In that case, so we do have browser automation for all the use cases and apply the public web. But for most of the integration with the internal system of the company, it really runs through API.Swyx [00:30:35]: Haven't you felt the pull to RPA, browser automation, that kind of stuff?Stan [00:30:39]: I mean, what I've been saying for a long time, maybe I'm wrong, is that if the future is that you're going to stand in front of a computer and looking at an agent clicking on stuff, then I'll hit my computer. And my computer is a big Lenovo. It's black. Doesn't sound good at all compared to a Mac. And if the APIs are there, we should use them. There is going to be a long tail of stuff that don't have APIs, but as the world is moving forward, that's disappearing. So the core API value in the past has really been, oh, this old 90s product doesn't have an API. So I need to use the UI to automate. I think for most of the ICP companies, the companies that ICP for us, the scale ups that are between 500 and 5,000 people, tech companies, most of the SaaS they use have APIs. Now there's an interesting question for the open web, because there are stuff that you want to do that involve websites that don't necessarily have APIs. And the current state of web integration from, which is us and OpenAI and Anthropic, I don't even know if they have web navigation, but I don't think so. The current state of affair is really, really broken because you have what? You have basically search and headless browsing. But headless browsing, I think everybody's doing basically body.innertext and fill that into the model, right?Swyx [00:31:56]: MARK MIRCHANDANI There's parsers into Markdown and stuff.Stan [00:31:58]: FRANCESC CAMPOY I'm super excited by the companies that are exploring the capability of rendering a web page into a way that is compatible for a model, being able to maintain the selector. So that's basically the place where to click in the page through that process, expose the actions to the model, have the model select an action in a way that is compatible with model, which is not a big page of a full DOM that is very noisy, and then being able to decompress that back to the original page and take the action. And that's something that is really exciting and that will kind of change the level of things that agents can do on the web. That I feel exciting, but I also feel that the bulk of the useful stuff that you can do within the company can be done through API. The data can be retrieved by API. The actions can be taken through API.Swyx [00:32:44]: For listeners, I'll note that you're basically completely disagreeing with David Wan. FRANCESC CAMPOY Exactly, exactly. I've seen it since it's summer. ADEPT is where it is, and Dust is where it is. So Dust is still standing.Alessio [00:32:55]: Can we just quickly comment on function calling? You mentioned you don't need the models to be that smart to actually pick the tools. Have you seen the models not be good enough? Or is it just like, you just don't want to put the complexity in there? Like, is there any room for improvement left in function calling? Or do you feel you usually consistently get always the right response, the right parametersStan [00:33:13]: and all of that?Alessio [00:33:13]: FRANCESC CAMPOY So that's a tricky product question.Stan [00:33:15]: Because if the instructions are good and precise, then you don't have any issue, because it's scripted for you. And the model will just look at the scripts and just follow and say, oh, he's probably talking about that action, and I'm going to use it. And the parameters are kind of abused from the state of the conversation. I'll just go with it. If you provide a very high level, kind of an auto-GPT-esque level in the instructions and provide 16 different tools to your model, yes, we're seeing the models in that state making mistakes. And there is obviously some progress can be made on the capabilities. But the interesting part is that there is already so much work that can assist, augment, accelerate by just going with pretty simply scripted for actions agents. What I'm excited about by pushing our users to create rather simple agents is that once you have those working really well, you can create meta agents that use the agents as actions. And all of a sudden, you can kind of have a hierarchy of responsibility that will probably get you almost to the point of the auto-GPT value. It requires the construction of intermediary artifacts, but you're probably going to be able to achieve something great. I'll give you some example. We have our incidents are shared in Slack in a specific channel, or shipped are shared in Slack. We have a weekly meeting where we have a table about incidents and shipped stuff. We're not writing that weekly meeting table anymore. We have an assistant that just go find the right data on Slack and create the table for us. And that assistant works perfectly. It's trivially simple, right? Take one week of data from that channel and just create the table. And then we have in that weekly meeting, obviously some graphs and reporting about our financials and our progress and our ARR. And we've created assistants to generate those graphs directly. And those assistants works great. By creating those assistants that cover those small parts of that weekly meeting, slowly we're getting to in a world where we'll have a weekly meeting assistance. We'll just call it. You don't need to prompt it. You don't need to say anything. It's going to run those different assistants and get that notion page just ready. And by doing that, if you get there, and that's an objective for us to us using Dust, get there, you're saving an hour of company time every time you run it. Yeah.Alessio [00:35:28]: That's my pet topic of NPM for agents. How do you build dependency graphs of agents? And how do you share them? Because why do I have to rebuild some of the smaller levels of what you built already?Swyx [00:35:40]: I have a quick follow-up question on agents managing other agents. It's a topic of a lot of research, both from Microsoft and even in startups. What you've discovered best practice for, let's say like a manager agent controlling a bunch of small agents. It's two-way communication. I don't know if there should be a protocol format.Stan [00:35:59]: To be completely honest, the state we are at right now is creating the simple agents. So we haven't even explored yet the meta agents. We know it's there. We know it's going to be valuable. We know it's going to be awesome. But we're starting there because it's the simplest place to start. And it's also what the market understands. If you go to a company, random SaaS B2B company, not necessarily specialized in AI, and you take an operational team and you tell them, build some tooling for yourself, they'll understand the small agents. If you tell them, build AutoGP, they'll be like, Auto what?Swyx [00:36:31]: And I noticed that in your language, you're very much focused on non-technical users. You don't really mention API here. You mention instruction instead of system prompt, right? That's very conscious.Stan [00:36:41]: Yeah, it's very conscious. It's a mark of our designer, Ed, who kind of pushed us to create a friendly product. I was knee-deep into AI when I started, obviously. And my co-founder, Gabriel, was a Stripe as well. We started a company together that got acquired by Stripe 15 years ago. It was at Alain, a healthcare company in Paris. After that, it was a little bit less so knee-deep in AI, but really focused on product. And I didn't realize how important it is to make that technology not scary to end users. It didn't feel scary to me, but it was really seen by Ed, our designer, that it was feeling scary to the users. And so we were very proactive and very deliberate about creating a brand that feels not too scary and creating a wording and a language, as you say, that really tried to communicate the fact that it's going to be fine. It's going to be easy. You're going to make it.Alessio [00:37:34]: And another big point that David had about ADAPT is we need to build an environment for the agents to act. And then if you have the environment, you can simulate what they do. How's that different when you're interacting with APIs and you're kind of touching systems that you cannot really simulate? If you call it the Salesforce API, you're just calling it.Stan [00:37:52]: So I think that goes back to the DNA of the companies that are very different. ADAPT, I think, was a product company with a very strong research DNA, and they were still doing research. One of their goals was building a model. And that's why they raised a large amount of money, et cetera. We are 100% deliberately a product company. We don't do research. We don't train models. We don't even run GPUs. We're using the models that exist, and we try to push the product boundary as far as possible with the existing models. So that creates an issue. Indeed, so to answer your question, when you're interacting in the real world, well, you cannot simulate, so you cannot improve the models. Even improving your instructions is complicated for a builder. The hope is that you can use models to evaluate the conversations so that you can get at least feedback and you could get contradictive information about the performance of the assistance. But if you take actual trace of interaction of humans with those agents, it is even for us humans extremely hard to decide whether it was a productive interaction or a really bad interaction. You don't know why the person left. You don't know if they left happy or not. So being extremely, extremely, extremely pragmatic here, it becomes a product issue. We have to build a product that identifies the end users to provide feedback so that as a first step, the person that is building the agent can iterate on it. As a second step, maybe later when we start training model and post-training, et cetera, we can optimize around that for each of those companies. Yeah.Alessio [00:39:17]: Do you see in the future products offering kind of like a simulation environment, the same way all SaaS now kind of offers APIs to build programmatically? Like in cybersecurity, there are a lot of companies working on building simulative environments so that then you can use agents like Red Team, but I haven't really seen that.Stan [00:39:34]: Yeah, no, me neither. That's a super interesting question. I think it's really going to depend on how much, because you need to simulate to generate data, you need to train data to train models. And the question at the end is, are we going to be training models or are we just going to be using frontier models as they are? On that question, I don't have a strong opinion. It might be the case that we'll be training models because in all of those AI first products, the model is so close to the product surface that as you get big and you want to really own your product, you're going to have to own the model as well. Owning the model doesn't mean doing the pre-training, that would be crazy. But at least having an internal post-training realignment loop, it makes a lot of sense. And so if we see many companies going towards that all the time, then there might be incentives for the SaaS's of the world to provide assistance in getting there. But at the same time, there's a tension because those SaaS, they don't want to be interacted by agents, they want the human to click on the button. Yeah, they got to sell seats. Exactly.Swyx [00:40:41]: Just a quick question on models. I'm sure you've used many, probably not just OpenAI. Would you characterize some models as better than others? Do you use any open source models? What have been the trends in models over the last two years?Stan [00:40:53]: We've seen over the past two years kind of a bit of a race in between models. And at times, it's the OpenAI model that is the best. At times, it's the Anthropic models that is the best. Our take on that is that we are agnostic and we let our users pick their model. Oh, they choose? Yeah, so when you create an assistant or an agent, you can just say, oh, I'm going to run it on GP4, GP4 Turbo, or...Swyx [00:41:16]: Don't you think for the non-technical user, that is actually an abstraction that you should take away from them?Stan [00:41:20]: We have a sane default. So we move the default to the latest model that is cool. And we have a sane default, and it's actually not very visible. In our flow to create an agent, you would have to go in advance and go pick your model. So this is something that the technical person will care about. But that's something that obviously is a bit too complicated for the...Swyx [00:41:40]: And do you care most about function calling or instruction following or something else?Stan [00:41:44]: I think we care most for function calling because you want to... There's nothing worse than a function call, including incorrect parameters or being a bit off because it just drives the whole interaction off.Swyx [00:41:56]: Yeah, so got the Berkeley function calling.Stan [00:42:00]: These days, it's funny how the comparison between GP4O and GP4 Turbo is still up in the air on function calling. I personally don't have proof, but I know many people, and I'm probably part of them, to think that GP4 Turbo is still better than GP4O on function calling. Wow. We'll see what comes out of the O1 class if it ever gets function calling. And Cloud 3.5 Summit is great as well. They kind of innovated in an interesting way, which was never quite publicized. But it's that they have that kind of chain of thought step whenever you use a Cloud model or Summit model with function calling. That chain of thought step doesn't exist when you just interact with it just for answering questions. But when you use function calling, you get that step, and it really helps getting better function calling.Swyx [00:42:43]: Yeah, we actually just recorded a podcast with the Berkeley team that runs that leaderboard this week. So they just released V3.Stan [00:42:49]: Yeah.Swyx [00:42:49]: It was V1 like two months ago, and then they V2, V3. Turbo is on top.Stan [00:42:53]: Turbo is on top. Turbo is over 4.0.Swyx [00:42:54]: And then the third place is XLAM from Salesforce, which is a large action model they've been trying to popularize.Stan [00:43:01]: Yep.Swyx [00:43:01]: O1 Mini is actually on here, I think. O1 Mini is number 11.Stan [00:43:05]: But arguably, O1 Mini has been in a line for that. Yeah.Alessio [00:43:09]: Do you use leaderboards? Do you have your own evals? I mean, this is kind of intuitive, right? Like using the older model is better. I think most people just upgrade. Yeah. What's the eval process like?Stan [00:43:19]: It's funny because I've been doing research for three years, and we have bigger stuff to cook. When you're deploying in a company, one thing where we really spike is that when we manage to activate the company, we have a crazy penetration. The highest penetration we have is 88% daily active users within the entire employee of the company. The kind of average penetration and activation we have in our current enterprise customers is something like more like 60% to 70% weekly active. So we basically have the entire company interacting with us. And when you're there, there is so many stuff that matters most than getting evals, getting the best model. Because there is so many places where you can create products or do stuff that will give you the 80% with the work you do. Whereas deciding if it's GPT-4 or GPT-4 Turbo or et cetera, you know, it'll just give you the 5% improvement. But the reality is that you want to focus on the places where you can really change the direction or change the interaction more drastically. But that's something that we'll have to do eventually because we still want to be serious people.Swyx [00:44:24]: It's funny because in some ways, the model labs are competing for you, right? You don't have to do any effort. You just switch model and then it'll grow. What are you really limited by? Is it additional sources?Stan [00:44:36]: It's not models, right?Swyx [00:44:37]: You're not really limited by quality of model.Stan [00:44:40]: Right now, we are limited by the infrastructure part, which is the ability to connect easily for users to all the data they need to do the job they want to do.Swyx [00:44:51]: Because you maintain all your own stuff.Stan [00:44:53]: You know, there are companies out thereSwyx [00:44:54]: that are starting to provide integrations as a service, right? I used to work in an integrations company. Yeah, I know.Stan [00:44:59]: It's just that there is some intricacies about how you chunk stuff and how you process information from one platform to the other. If you look at the end of the spectrum, you could think of, you could say, oh, I'm going to support AirByte and AirByte has- I used to work at AirByte.Swyx [00:45:12]: Oh, really?Stan [00:45:13]: That makes sense.Swyx [00:45:14]: They're the French founders as well.Stan [00:45:15]: I know Jean very well. I'm seeing him today. And the reality is that if you look at Notion, AirByte does the job of taking Notion and putting it in a structured way. But that's the way it is not really usable to actually make it available to models in a useful way. Because you get all the blocks, details, et cetera, which is useful for many use cases.Swyx [00:45:35]: It's also for data scientists and not for AI.Stan [00:45:38]: The reality of Notion is that sometimes you have a- so when you have a page, there's a lot of structure in it and you want to capture the structure and chunk the information in a way that respects that structure. In Notion, you have databases. Sometimes those databases are real tabular data. Sometimes those databases are full of text. You want to get the distinction and understand that this database should be considered like text information, whereas this other one is actually quantitative information. And to really get a very high quality interaction with that piece of information, I haven't found a solution that will work without us owning the connection end-to-end.Swyx [00:46:15]: That's why I don't invest in, there's Composio, there's All Hands from Graham Newbig. There's all these other companies that are like, we will do the integrations for you. You just, we have the open source community. We'll do off the shelf. But then you are so specific in your needs that you want to own it.Swyx [00:46:28]: Yeah, exactly.Stan [00:46:29]: You can talk to Michel about that.Swyx [00:46:30]: You know, he wants to put the AI in there, but you know. Yeah, I will. I will.Stan [00:46:35]: Cool. What are we missing?Alessio [00:46:36]: You know, what are like the things that are like sneakily hard that you're tackling that maybe people don't even realize they're like really hard?Stan [00:46:43]: The real parts as we kind of touch base throughout the conversation is really building the infra that works for those agents because it's a tenuous walk. It's an evergreen piece of work because you always have an extra integration that will be useful to a non-negligible set of your users. I'm super excited about is that there's so many interactions that shouldn't be conversational interactions and that could be very useful. Basically, know that we have the firehose of information of those companies and there's not going to be that many companies that capture the firehose of information. When you have the firehose of information, you can do a ton of stuff with models that are just not accelerating people, but giving them superhuman capability, even with the current model capability because you can just sift through much more information. An example is documentation repair. If I have the firehose of Slack messages and new Notion pages, if somebody says, I own that page, I want to be updated when there is a piece of information that should update that page, this is not possible. You get an email saying, oh, look at that Slack message. It says the opposite of what you have in that paragraph. Maybe you want to update or just ping that person. I think there is a lot to be explored on the product layer in terms of what it means to interact productively with those models. And that's a problem that's extremely hard and extremely exciting.Swyx [00:48:00]: One thing you keep mentioning about infra work, obviously, Dust is building that infra and serving that in a very consumer-friendly way. You always talk about infra being additional sources, additional connectors. That is very important. But I'm also interested in the vertical infra. There is an orchestrator underlying all these things where you're doing asynchronous work. For example, the simplest one is a cron job. You just schedule things. But also, for if this and that, you have to wait for something to be executed and proceed to the next task. I used to work on an orchestrator as well, Temporal.Stan [00:48:31]: We used Temporal. Oh, you used Temporal? Yeah. Oh, how was the experience?Swyx [00:48:34]: I need the NPS.Stan [00:48:36]: We're doing a self-discovery call now.Swyx [00:48:39]: But you can also complain to me because I don't work there anymore.Stan [00:48:42]: No, we love Temporal. There's some edges that are a bit rough, surprisingly rough. And you would say, why is it so complicated?Swyx [00:48:49]: It's always versioning.Stan [00:48:50]: Yeah, stuff like that. But we really love it. And we use it for exactly what you said, like managing the entire set of stuff that needs to happen so that in semi-real time, we get all the updates from Slack or Notion or GitHub into the system. And whenever we see that piece of information goes through, maybe trigger workflows to run agents because they need to provide alerts to users and stuff like that. And Temporal is great. Love it.Swyx [00:49:17]: You haven't evaluated others. You don't want to build your own. You're happy with...Stan [00:49:21]: Oh, no, we're not in the business of replacing Temporal. And Temporal is so... I mean, it is or any other competitive product. They're very general. If it's there, there's an interesting theory about buy versus build. I think in that case, when you're a high-growth company, your buy-build trade-off is very much on the side of buy. Because if you have the capability, you're just going to be saving time, you can focus on your core competency, etc. And it's funny because we're seeing, we're starting to see the post-high-growth company, post-SKF company, going back on that trade-off, interestingly. So that's the cloud news about removing Zendesk and Salesforce. Do you believe that, by the way?Alessio [00:49:56]: Yeah, I did a podcast with them.Stan [00:49:58]: Oh, yeah?Alessio [00:49:58]: It's true.Swyx [00:49:59]: No, no, I know.Stan [00:50:00]: Of course they say it's true,Swyx [00:50:00]: but also how well is it going to go?Stan [00:50:02]: So I'm not talking about deflecting the customer traffic. I'm talking about building AI on top of Salesforce and Zendesk, basically, if I understand correctly. And all of a sudden, your product surface becomes much smaller because you're interacting with an AI system that will take some actions. And so all of a sudden, you don't need the product layer anymore. And you realize that, oh, those things are just databases that I pay a hundred times the price, right? Because you're a post-SKF company and you have tech capabilities, you are incentivized to reduce your costs and you have the capability to do so. And then it makes sense to just scratch the SaaS away. So it's interesting that we might see kind of a bad time for SaaS in post-hyper-growth tech companies. So it's still a big market, but it's not that big because if you're not a tech company, you don't have the capabilities to reduce that cost. If you're a high-growth company, always going to be buying because you go faster with that. But that's an interesting new space, new category of companies that might remove some SaaS. Yeah, Alessio's firmSwyx [00:51:02]: has an interesting thesis on the future of SaaS in AI.Alessio [00:51:05]: Service as a software, we call it. It's basically like, well, the most extreme is like, why is there any software at all? You know, ideally, it's all a labor interface where you're asking somebody to do something for you, whether that's a person, an AI agent or whatnot.Stan [00:51:17]: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I have to ask.Swyx [00:51:19]: Are you paying for Temporal Cloud or are you self-hosting?Stan [00:51:22]: Oh, no, no, we're paying, we're paying. Oh, okay, interesting.Swyx [00:51:24]: We're paying way too much.Stan [00:51:26]: It's crazy expensive, but it makes us-Swyx [00:51:28]: That's why as a shareholder, I like to hear that. It makes us go faster,Stan [00:51:31]: so we're happy to pay.Swyx [00:51:33]: Other things in the infrastack, I just want a list for other founders to think about. Ops, API gateway, evals, you know, anything interesting there that you build or buy?Stan [00:51:41]: I mean, there's always an interesting question. We've been building a lot around the interface between models and because Dust, the original version, was an orchestration platform and we basically provide a unified interface to every model providers.Swyx [00:51:56]: That's what I call gateway.Stan [00:51:57]: That we add because Dust was that and so we continued building upon and we own it. But that's an interesting question was in you, you want to build that or buy it?Swyx [00:52:06]: Yeah, I always say light LLM is the current open source consensus.Stan [00:52:09]: Exactly, yeah. There's an interesting question there.Swyx [00:52:12]: Ops, Datadog, just tracking.Stan [00:52:14]: Oh yeah, so Datadog is an obvious... What are the mistakes that I regret? I started as pure JavaScript, not TypeScript, and I think you want to, if you're wondering, oh, I want to go fast, I'll do a little bit of JavaScript. No, don't, just start with TypeScript. I see, okay.Swyx [00:52:30]: So interesting, you are a research engineer that came out of OpenAI that bet on TypeScript.Stan [00:52:36]: Well, the reality is that if you're building a product, you're going to be doing a lot of JavaScript, right? And Next, we're using Next as an example. It's

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Le marché B2B évolue rapidement, et les cycles de vente s'allongent. Les raisons ? Plus de décideurs impliqués, des prospects mieux informés, et un contexte économique incertain qui accroît la peur de prendre de mauvaises décisions. Résultat : les commerciaux voient leurs deals stagner et leurs efforts s'éparpiller. Mais il existe une solution efficace pour reprendre le contrôle sur vos ventes complexes : le "Mutual Action Plan" (MAP). Pour en discuter, j'ai invité Siegfried Bizit-Bila, sales coach SaaS B2B et expert en vente complexe, qui partage comment il utilise le MAP pour maintenir l'engagement des parties prenantes et éviter les blocages inattendus. Au programme : Quand et comment introduire le MAP pour maximiser son adoption. Les éléments clés à inclure : ressources, parties prenantes, étapes et échéances. Des conseils pratiques pour faire du MAP un allié incontournable dans vos ventes. Cet épisode est un must pour tous ceux qui cherchent à raccourcir leurs cycles de vente et à maximiser leurs conversions. Soutenez l'émission ❤ Abonnez-vous

We often emphasize the importance of understanding what's being talked about in sales conversations to shape content strategy and tell unique, compelling stories.In this week's SaaS Backwards podcast episode, we talk with Parthi Loganathan, Founder and CEO of Letterdrop, a platform designed to help companies do just that.Parthi explains how Letterdrop's AI assists companies in creating content that resonates with more buyers by leveraging the language their customers actually use, cutting down the time and improving the quality of their thought leadership content. He also shares how Letterdrop supports SDRs in delivering value and helps companies uncover and understand their customers' unmet needs.We also discuss the ongoing shift in SEO, the growing focus on LinkedIn, and the decline of traditional outbound sales tactics such as cold calling and cold emailing.Our conversation with Parthi offers valuable insights for SaaS CEOs, CMOs, and marketing and sales professionals in the B2B space.Key takeaways from this episode:The importance of getting context and relevance right before scaling itWhy cold calling and cold emailing no longer worksInsights on future opportunities for content on LinkedInOther resources to check out:Interview with Vinay Bhagat, Founder and CEO of TrustRadius who publishes a yearly report about how B2B buyer behavior is changing.The Lead Gen Mistake I Guarantee You're Making – how to create content that better identifies intent from today's b2b buyer.And, if you want an outside look at your content with actionable advice, take advantage of our Content Audit. Valued at $20K in free consulting---Thanks for listening to the SaaS Backwards Podcast, brought to you by Austin Lawrence Group. We help SaaS firms reduce churn, accelerate sales, and generate demand. Learn more at AustinLawrence.com.---Is your messaging a sales ally or sneaky saboteur? Let us help with our free messaging audit.We'll look at your website's messaging, content, and conversion potential from the eyes of today's buyer and deliver a presentation with new combinations to more sales conversations and demos. And the best part? It's absolutely free. Get started today!

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Renan de Villiers, CEO and co-founder of OSS Ventures, discusses his niche in B2B SaaS for manufacturing. He explains that manufacturing accounts for 25% of the world GDP and highlights the importance of software in factories. Renan shares his experience as a former factory director and how it led him to start a venture builder and investment firm focused on SaaS B2B for manufacturing. He emphasises the challenges of scaling executive talent in mature companies and the need for better incentive packages in the VC world. Renan also discusses the state of the economy, de-globalisation, and the future of manufacturing. The conversation explores the importance of hardware in tech companies, the challenges of scaling businesses, and the myths and realities of venture capital. It also delves into the personal journey of the guest and his sources of inspiration.takeawaysManufacturing accounts for 25% of the world GDP, making it a significant niche for B2B SaaS.Scaling executive talent is a challenge in mature companies, and better incentive packages are needed in the VC world.The US is decoupling from China, and there is a trend of reshoring and nearshoring in manufacturing.Energy and chip production are becoming increasingly important in the manufacturing industry. Hardware will play a significant role in the success of tech companies in the future.Scaling a business involves two major breaking points: transitioning from founder-led chaos to a more structured approach and managing the challenges of communication and processes as the company grows.Founders need to be willing to adapt and change as their company scales, and sometimes, that means letting go of the chaotic energy that fuelled the early stages.Ideas do matter in business, but they are nothing without execution.Success in life is measured by the impact you have on others.Recommended books: 'No Rules Rules' by Reed Hastings and 'Hunger, Famine, and Wealth' by London philosopher.Recommended podcast: 'Revenue Builder' for insights on revenue generation in B2B SaaS.Chapters00:00 Introduction and Niche in B2B SaaS for Manufacturing02:11 Scaling Executive Talent in Mature Companies06:21 Challenges in Incentive Packages for VC-backed Companies13:22 The Decoupling of the US from China24:07 The Importance of Energy and Chip Production in Manufacturing25:55 The Role of Hardware in Tech Companies30:25 Scaling Challenges and Breaking Points32:17 Adapting as a Founder During Growth39:37 The Importance of Ideas and Execution45:22 Measuring Success in Life49:08 Timeless Inspiration from 'Meditations'49:53 Debunking the Myth: Ideas Do Matter

In this episode, Matt Watson interviews Dale Walden, the founder of Njord & Co, a SaaS B2B marketing company. They discuss the importance of positioning in marketing and how it can help companies focus on their target audience. Dale shares his experiences in the B2C and B2B worlds and emphasizes the need for founders to niche down and focus on a specific customer profile. They also discuss the challenges of transitioning from a founder to a leader and the importance of building a talented team. Dale provides insights into pricing strategies and the differences between selling to SMBs and enterprises. Takeaways Positioning is crucial for companies to focus on their target audience and effectively communicate their value proposition. Niche down and focus on a specific customer profile to make your marketing more relevant and effective. Transitioning from a founder to a leader requires delegation and building a talented team. Consider the size of the organization you're targeting when determining your pricing strategy. Selling to SMBs and enterprises requires different approaches and considerations. Find Startup Hustle Everywhere:https://gigb.co/l/YEh5This episode is sponsored by Full Scale:https://fullscale.io/Find out more about Njord & Co here:https://www.njordconsult.com/ Learn more about Dale Walden here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/dalewalden/ Sign up for the Startup Hustle newsletter:https://newsletter.startuphustle.xyz/ Sound Bites "Positioning is difficult to define, but you know it when you see it." "Make your pitch and proposition relevant to your customer's identity or aspirations." "Transitioning from a ruthless dictator mindset to a collaborative leader is crucial for scaling a business." Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Overview 03:01 Entrepreneurial Journey and Lessons Learned 05:30 Identifying Common Challenges in SaaS Businesses 08:18 Niche Down and Focus on Ideal Customer Profile 11:18 Creating Relevance and Emotional Connection with Customers 13:15 The Benefits of Focusing on a Local Market 14:13 Defining Good Positioning 15:30 Key Questions to Answer in Positioning 16:24 Differentiating Value and Making the Proposition Relevant 19:07 The Challenges of Psychological Positioning for Technical Founders 20:04 Quantifying Differentiated Value for Enterprise Customers 21:11 The Challenges of Unfair Advantage Perception 22:06 Transitioning from Founder to Leader 23:21 The Importance of Delegation and Collaboration 25:18 The Challenges of Letting Go of Control 27:20 The Importance of Talent and Building a Great Team 28:31 The Top Three Mistakes in Positioning 29:24 The Importance of Targeting the Right Market SizeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this insightful episode, we welcome Victor Antiu, Marketing Manager at Custify, a cutting-edge customer success platform.  Victor shares how Custify acts as a GPS for customer success teams, helping businesses with customer relationships. He discusses the importance of reducing churn, improving onboarding, and increasing productivity in SaaS B2B companies. Victor also offers valuable insights on organic lead generation, content strategy, and the power of authoritative, detailed content in today's digital landscape.  Learn how Custify is revolutionizing customer success operations and driving growth for businesses worldwide.

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Having no plans of becoming a CEO, engineer Marko Dinic shares his 18-year journey to becoming the leader of a company that excels in compliance solutions. Leading his company through both triumphs and challenges, Marko, CEO of Jatheon, delves into his experiences, lessons learned, and the unique insights he's gained along the way.Complex Sales Require Technical ExpertiseMarko emphasizes the need for deep technical understanding when selling intricate compliance solutions. Marko states, “In our industry, sales cycles are very long and involve numerous technical evaluations and integrations. Having a technical lead ensures that we can address any technical concerns that arise during the process, providing confidence to our clients and streamlining the sales journey.”Adapting Through Economic TurmoilFacing market turmoil and recession, Marko had to downsize and rebuild, showcasing resilience and adaptability in leadership. He recalls, “We went from 32 people down to six. So it wasn't going according to plan. But we were able to get back to a cash flow positive state by 2013.”Building the Right TeamThe journey to finding the right sales team involved trial and error, emphasizing the need for experienced, senior salespeople who understand the intricacies of the industry. Marko shares, “We arrived at our current setup, which is primarily SEO-based and PPC-based inbound leads. They come to our senior account executives. We do not have SDRs in front of them because we found that young sales executives do not help us at all.”Action Steps for CEOs:Embrace Technical Expertise in Sales: Ensure your sales team includes technical leads to handle complex details and improve the overall sales process.Focus on Resilience: Prepare for economic challenges by having adaptable strategies and a resilient mindset.Invest in Senior Talent: Hire experienced salespeople who can navigate complex sales environments and provide valuable feedback for product development.Marko Dinic's journey from engineer to CEO of Jatheon offers invaluable lessons for any leader. His experience underscores the importance of technical expertise in sales, resilience in the face of economic challenges, and the critical role of hiring the right team. To gain deeper insights into Marko's story and the strategies that have driven his success, listen to the full episode below. Whether you're a budding entrepreneur or an established CEO, this episode provides practical advice and inspiration for your own business journey. Episode DetailsChapters00:49 Overview of Jatheon Technologies02:52 Early Career and Joining Jatheon09:33 Navigating Financial Challenges and Reorganization09:33 Transitioning to CEO and Sales Department Challenges14:25 Structuring and Scaling the Sales Team20:34 Lessons from Trial and Error in Hiring24:30 Remote Work and Open Communication Culture30:51 Alignment and Continuous Improvement42:26 Recommendations and Closing RemarksAbout GuestMarko Dinic is an SaaS B2B entrepreneur, investor, and CEO of Jatheon Technologies, a Toronto-based com tech company that is a leader in the archiving and compliance technology sector.With a sharp focus on innovation and customer-centric solutions, Marko has spearheaded Jatheon's transformation into a key player in the data archiving space. His strategic vision centers around providing robust and secure archiving solutions that cater to regulated industries, including financial services, healthcare, and government entities. Marko's leadership is marked by a commitment to delivering technologies that ensure compliance with evolving regulations and enhance operational efficiency. His expertise and dedication have been pivotal in Jatheon's growth and its ability to help organizations manage their information governance and compliance challenges effectively.Social Links Connect with Marko on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markodinic/Connect with Marko on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mdinicCheck out Jatheon's website: https://jatheon.com/Follow Jatheon on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/jatheon-technologiesFollow Jatheon on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@jatheonCheck out Alice's website: https://aliceheiman.com/Connect with Alice on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aliceheiman/

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A community can be a "cheat code" for rapid learning and career advancement, and this week's guest knows that better than most.In this episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with Kathleen Booth, SVP of Marketing and Growth at Pavilion, the world's largest private community for go-to-market leaders. Our conversation explores the concept of community-led growth and how Pavilion encourages this by providing a platform for members to grow their network, sharpen their skills, and develop lifelong connections. Overall, Kathleen provides valuable insights into the intersection of community, social media, and growth strategies for SaaS companies. Key takeaways from this episode:The importance of community-led growth for SaaS companies and strategies for leveraging communities to drive growth and engagementHow CEOs and marketing leaders can use social media to build relationships, drive pipeline, and engage with prospectsThe challenges executives face in prioritizing social media efforts and the need to shift from viewing social media as a "nice to have" to a "must have" for business growthThis episode is ideal for SaaS CEOs, CMOs, and marketing professionals looking to leverage community-led growth strategies, enhance their LinkedIn presence, and drive pipeline through organic and personalized outreach.Other resources to check out:Interview with Vinay Bhagat, Founder and CEO of TrustRadius who publishes a yearly report about how B2B buyer behavior is changing.The Lead Gen Mistake I Guarantee You're Making – how to create content that better identifies intent from today's b2b buyer.And, if you want an outside look at your content with actionable advice, take advantage of our Content Audit. Valued at $20K in free consulting---Is your messaging a sales ally or sneaky saboteur? Let us help with our free content audit.We'll look at your website's messaging, content, and conversion potential from the eyes of today's buyer and deliver a presentation with new combinations to more sales conversations and demos. And the best part? It's absolutely free. Get started today!

En este episodio, hablamos con Jordi Romero, CEO y Cofounder de Factorial, el último unicornio español y un SaaS B2B que ha conseguido +10.000 clientes en todo el mundo, junto a Alex Granados y Lucas Frances, de Product Hackers. Con Jordi, hablamos de las claves del éxito de Factorial, los desafíos detrás de su internacionalización y de escalar producto y cultura, cómo priorizan los desarrollos, cómo experimentan y por qué se enfocan en las PyMEs. También exploramos el estado actual del mercado VC, cómo incentivar al equipo de una Startup, qué es lo que podría ir mal en Factorial y cómo definen objetivos a nivel interno. NOSOTROS 🚀 Product Hackers Conference - https://p-h.es/conference-p 🔥 Programa Profesional de Growth Manager Certification - https://p-h.es/GMCertification 🌍 Web - https://producthackers.com/es/podcast/factorial-jordi-romero?utm_source=Podcast&utm_medium=descripcion 📩 Newsletter - https://p-h.es/newsletter-growth 📈 Casos de éxito de Growth - https://p-h.es/misiones-growth RRSS 📹 YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/GrowthProductHackers 💼 LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/producthackers/ 🐦 Twitter - https://twitter.com/product_hackers 📱 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/product_hackers/ (00:00) Intro y presentación. (01:27) Las claves del éxito de Factorial. (04:21) El desafío de escalar en el momento adecuado. (07:38) Usando el mercado para priorizar. (10:09) Priorizando la experiencia del usuario. (13:11) Experimentación y crecimiento. (17:29) Por qué enfocarse en las PyMEs. (23:40) Problemas de escalar producto y cultura. (35:27) Los desafíos de internacionalizar. (45:45) Las claves de diseñar un plan para financiarte. (48:29) Estado de la financiación con VC en 2024. (51:17) Incentivando al equipo. (54:29) Definiendo objetivos en Factorial. (58:56) Consiguiendo resultados no lineales. (1:00:58) Lo que podría ir mal en Factorial. (1:02:25) Lo que fue mal en Factorial. (1:06:45) Cómo crece Jordi. (1:08:45) Referentes de emprendimiento de Jordi. (1:11:42) El consejo de Jordi. (1:13:13) Cierre y despedida.

Antoine est diplômé de HEC et a débuté dans le domaine de la tech notamment chez Vente Privée avant de rejoindre un VC, plutôt orienté sur de l'investissement dans des start-ups SaaS B2B. Cette expérience, mêlée à son intérêt marqué pour les cryptos, le pousse à réfléchir à un business dont la croissance suivrait la courbe d'adoption des cryptos. C'est comme cela que Cryptio est née début 2018. Dans cet épisode, Antoine vous dévoile : -pourquoi et comment il a lancé un SaaS de back-office crypto dès 2018 ? -comment il a très rapidement réussi à builder son produit en partenariat avec des grands noms du secteur ? -quelle est la vision et quelles sont les features proposées par Cryptio ? -pourquoi Cryptio joue un rôle clé pour 3 de ses clients en conflit avec le régulateur américain (SEC) ? -quels sont les chiffres clés et les prochains enjeux de l'entreprise ? -quels sont ses conseils financiers et comptables pour des entrepreneurs web3 qui se lancent ? -quelle est sa vision du web3 à horizon 10 ans ? ⚠️ Ce podcast ne constitue pas un conseil en investissement. Les investissements liés aux crypto-actifs et aux NFT sont risqués et peuvent conduire à une perte de la totalité de votre capital. Faites toujours vos propres recherches et soyez prudents ⚠️ Personnes, projets et structures cités dans l'épisode : Antoine Scalia : Linkedin et Twitter Cryptio ConsenSys SEC MiCA Bancolombia (article Bitcoin.com News) ❤️ Si vous avez apprécié cet épisode de Behind The Chain, n'hésitez pas à laisser un avis ou une note sur votre plateforme d'écoute ! Cela aide d'autres passionnés (ou futurs passionnés) par l'univers du web3 à découvrir le podcast.

Customer Experience |  Strategic Leadership | Customer Success | Well-being | Actionable Advice | Career Growth | Join us for a great conversation with Mel Simons, Global Director of Customer Experience at Dreamdata! Dreamdata is a SaaS B2B revenue attribution platform that gathers, joins, and cleans all revenue-related data to present a transparent, actionable analysis of go-to-market data. This empowers you to easily see a 360° customer journey view, understand ROI, reveal buying signals, send data back to ad platforms, and much more.Mel Simons is a seasoned professional with a strong background in Customer Success leadership roles across diverse industries. With previous roles at companies like ZeroNorth, GOODIEBOX, and Trustpilot, Melanie brings extensive experience in driving customer-centric initiatives and fostering brand growth through exceptional customer experience. With a strategic approach to career progression, Mel reflects on key decisions and milestones that have shaped her journey, emphasizing the importance of balancing external customer focus with internal team dynamics for sustainable growth.Learn how Mel ensures alignment between customer-centric initiatives and team dynamics, fostering collaboration among different departments and overcoming barriers through effective communication and problem-solving strategies. We discuss Mel's approach to fostering a culture of continuous improvement within her team while driving external customer satisfaction and internal team development. Mel shares real-life examples of navigating differences in perspectives across departments and stakeholders, and she uncovers practical steps for supporting the professional development and success of team members while driving business growth.Gain valuable insights into setting success roles, prioritizing mental health amidst career demands, and maintaining alignment between long-term career goals and day-to-day activities!Follow Mel Simons on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melaniejsimons/

En este episodio, hablamos con Jordi Romero, CEO y Cofounder de Factorial, el último unicornio español y un SaaS B2B que ha conseguido +10.000 clientes en todo el mundo, junto a Alex Granados y Lucas Frances, de Product Hackers. Con Jordi, hablamos de las claves del éxito de Factorial, los desafíos detrás de su internacionalización y de escalar producto y cultura, cómo priorizan los desarrollos, cómo experimentan y por qué se enfocan en las PyMEs. También exploramos el estado actual del mercado VC, cómo incentivar al equipo de una Startup, qué es lo que podría ir mal en Factorial y cómo definen objetivos a nivel interno. NOSOTROS 🚀 Product Hackers Conference - https://p-h.es/conference-p 🔥 Programa Profesional de Growth Manager Certification - https://p-h.es/GMCertification 🌍 Web - https://producthackers.com/es/podcast/factorial-jordi-romero?utm_source=Podcast&utm_medium=descripcion 📩 Newsletter - https://p-h.es/newsletter-growth 📈 Casos de éxito de Growth - https://p-h.es/misiones-growth RRSS 📹 YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/GrowthProductHackers 💼 LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/producthackers/ 🐦 Twitter - https://twitter.com/product_hackers 📱 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/product_hackers/ (00:00) Intro y presentación. (01:27) Las claves del éxito de Factorial. (04:21) El desafío de escalar en el momento adecuado. (07:38) Usando el mercado para priorizar. (10:09) Priorizando la experiencia del usuario. (13:11) Experimentación y crecimiento. (17:29) Por qué enfocarse en las PyMEs. (23:40) Problemas de escalar producto y cultura. (35:27) Los desafíos de internacionalizar. (45:45) Las claves de diseñar un plan para financiarte. (48:29) Estado de la financiación con VC en 2024. (51:17) Incentivando al equipo. (54:29) Definiendo objetivos en Factorial. (58:56) Consiguiendo resultados no lineales. (1:00:58) Lo que podría ir mal en Factorial. (1:02:25) Lo que fue mal en Factorial. (1:06:45) Cómo crece Jordi. (1:08:45) Referentes de emprendimiento de Jordi. (1:11:42) El consejo de Jordi. (1:13:13) Cierre y despedida.

En este episodio, hablamos con Jordi Romero, CEO y Cofounder de Factorial, el último unicornio español y un SaaS B2B que ha conseguido +10.000 clientes en todo el mundo, junto a Alex Granados y Lucas Frances, de Product Hackers.Con Jordi, hablamos de las claves del éxito de Factorial, los desafíos detrás de su internacionalización y de escalar producto y cultura, cómo priorizan los desarrollos, cómo experimentan y por qué se enfocan en las PyMEs.También exploramos el estado actual del mercado VC, cómo incentivar al equipo de una Startup, qué es lo que podría ir mal en Factorial y cómo definen objetivos a nivel interno.NOSOTROS

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If you are struggling to scale your B2B SaaS company beyond a certain point or feel like your growth has hit a ceiling despite your best efforts, you're not alone. Many businesses face similar challenges, but there is a way to break through and achieve exponential growth.In this episode, Julia Vorontsova, the founder of Innovation Park, shares a step-by-step case study on how they helped a 25-year-old B2B SaaS company scale from a mere $200,000 to an impressive $20 million in just four years. By focusing on customer journey optimization, audience targeting, and organic lead generation, they unlocked the secret to sustainable growth.If you're ready to take your B2B SaaS company beyond the plateau, listen to this episode and learn how to implement Julia's proven blueprint for success. Don't miss the opportunity to access Julia's step-by-step blueprint for scaling a SaaS B2B company from $200,000 to $20 million. Visit innovation-park.eu/revenue-blueprint for a detailed case study and actionable insights to propel your business forward.Key Takeaways:01:29 The challenge: Reviving a 25-year-old SaaS brand02:22 Identifying the target audience for the sister brand04:44 Scaling ads and uncovering organic lead generation opportunities10:34 Tracking ROI across revenue channels to maximize results15:23 Using customer language from sales calls to improve copy conversion16:18 Tailoring articles to address different customer profiles and concerns18:21 The importance of clearly communicating your offering to avoid confusion20:45 How to access the detailed case study and revenue optimization blueprintResources:Free Revenue Blueprint - https://innovation-park.eu/revenue-blueprintConnect with Julia VorontsovaWebsite - https://innovation-park.eu/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliavorontsova/ Be sure to subscribe to the podcast at: https://www.digitalmarketer.com/podcast/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitalmarketerInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/digitalmarketer/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/digital-marketer/This Month's Sponsors:Conversion Fanatics - Conversion Rate Optimization AgencyGet 50% Off Monthly Blog Writing Service - BKA Content More Resources from Scalable[Free Guide & Assessment] 7 Levels of ScaleFREE EPIC Challenge More Shows You'll Love

If you are struggling to scale your B2B SaaS company beyond a certain point or feel like your growth has hit a ceiling despite your best efforts, you're not alone. Many businesses face similar challenges, but there is a way to break through and achieve exponential growth.In this episode, Julia Vorontsova, the founder of Innovation Park, shares a step-by-step case study on how they helped a 25-year-old B2B SaaS company scale from a mere $200,000 to an impressive $20 million in just four years. By focusing on customer journey optimization, audience targeting, and organic lead generation, they unlocked the secret to sustainable growth.If you're ready to take your B2B SaaS company beyond the plateau, listen to this episode and learn how to implement Julia's proven blueprint for success. Don't miss the opportunity to access Julia's step-by-step blueprint for scaling a SaaS B2B company from $200,000 to $20 million. Visit innovation-park.eu/revenue-blueprint for a detailed case study and actionable insights to propel your business forward.Key Takeaways:01:29 The challenge: Reviving a 25-year-old SaaS brand02:22 Identifying the target audience for the sister brand04:44 Scaling ads and uncovering organic lead generation opportunities10:34 Tracking ROI across revenue channels to maximize results15:23 Using customer language from sales calls to improve copy conversion16:18 Tailoring articles to address different customer profiles and concerns18:21 The importance of clearly communicating your offering to avoid confusion20:45 How to access the detailed case study and revenue optimization blueprintResources:Free Revenue Blueprint - https://innovation-park.eu/revenue-blueprintConnect with Julia VorontsovaWebsite - https://innovation-park.eu/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliavorontsova/ Be sure to subscribe to the podcast at: https://www.digitalmarketer.com/podcast/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitalmarketerInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/digitalmarketer/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/digital-marketer/This Month's Sponsors:Conversion Fanatics - Conversion Rate Optimization AgencyGet 50% Off Monthly Blog Writing Service - BKA Content More Resources from Scalable[Free Guide & Assessment] 7 Levels of ScaleFREE EPIC Challenge More Shows You'll Love

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Bio Luke Hohmann is Chief Innovation Officer of Applied Frameworks. Applied Frameworks helps companies create more profitable software-enabled solutions. A serial entrepreneur, Luke founded, bootstrapped, and sold the SaaS B2B collaboration software company Conteneo to Scaled Agile, Inc. Conteneo's Weave platform is now part of SAFe Studio. A SAFe® Fellow, prolific author, and trailblazing innovator, Luke's contributions to the global agile community include contributing to SAFe, five books, Profit Streams™, Innovation Games®, Participatory Budgeting at enterprise scale, and a pattern language for market-driven roadmapping. Luke is also co-founder of Every Voice Engaged Foundation, where he partnered with The Kettering Foundation to create Common Ground for Action, the world's first scalable platform for deliberative decision-making. Luke is a former National Junior Pairs Figure Skating Champion and has an M.S.E. in Computer Science and Engineering from the University of Michigan. Luke loves his wife and four kids, his wife's cooking, and long runs in the California sunshine and Santa Cruz mountains.    Interview Highlights 01:30 Organisational Behaviour & Cognitive Psychology 06:10 Serendipity 09:30 Entrepreneurship 16:15 Applied Frameworks 20:00 Sustainability 20:45 Software Profit Streams 23:00 Business Model Canvas 24:00 Value Proposition Canvas 24:45 Setting the Price 28:45 Customer Benefit Analysis 34:00 Participatory Budgeting 36:00 Value Stream Funding 37:30 The Color of Money 42:00 Private v Public Sector 49:00 ROI Analysis 51:00 Innovation Accounting    Connecting   LinkedIn: Luke Hohmann on LinkedIn Company Website: Applied Frameworks    Books & Resources   ·         Software Profit Streams(TM): A Guide to Designing a Sustainably Profitable Business: Jason Tanner, Luke Hohmann, Federico González ·         Business Model Generation: A Handbook for Visionaries, Game Changers, and Challengers (The Strategyzer series): Alexander Osterwalder, Yves Pigneur ·         Value Proposition Design: How to Create Products and Services Customers Want (The Strategyzer Series): Alexander Osterwalder, Yves Pigneur, Gregory Bernarda, Alan Smith, Trish Papadakos ·         Innovation Games: Creating Breakthrough Products Through Collaborative Play: Luke Hohmann ·         The ‘Color of Money' Problem: Additional Guidance on Participatory Budgeting - Scaled Agile Framework ·         The Lean Startup: How Today's Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses, Eric Ries ·         Extreme Programming Explained: Embrace Change 2, Kent Beck, Cynthia Andres ·         The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering: Brooks, Frederick Phillips ·         Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art, Scott McCloud ·         Ponyboy: A Novel, Eliot Duncan ·         Lessons in Chemistry: A Novel, Bonnie Garmus, Miranda Raison, Bonnie Garmus, Pandora Sykes ·         What Happened to You?: Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing, Oprah Winfrey, Bruce D. Perry ·         Training | Applied Frameworks   Episode Transcript Intro: Hello and welcome to the Agile Innovation Leaders podcast. I'm Ula Ojiaku. On this podcast I speak with world-class leaders and doers about themselves and a variety of topics spanning Agile, Lean Innovation, Business, Leadership and much more – with actionable takeaways for you the listener.  Ula Ojiaku   So I have with me Luke Hohmann, who is a four time author, three time founder, serial entrepreneur if I say, a SAFe fellow, so that's a Skilled Agile Framework fellow, keynote speaker and an internationally recognised expert in Agile software development. He is also a proud husband and a father of four. So, Luke, I am very honoured to have you on the Agile Innovation Leaders podcast. Thank you for making the time. Luke Hohmann Thank you so much for having me, I'm very happy to be here, and hi everyone who's listening. Ula Ojiaku Yes, I'm sure they're waving back at you as well. I always start my conversations with my guests to find out about them as individuals, you know, so who is Luke? You have a BSc in Computer Science and an MSc in Computer Science and Engineering, but you also studied Cognitive Psychology and Organisational Behaviour in addition to Data Structures and Artificial Intelligence. AI is now making waves and is kind of at the forefront, which is interesting, you had the foresight to also look into these. So my question is, what took you down this path? Luke Hohmann Sure. I had a humble beginning in the world of technology. I worked for a large company, Electronic Data Systems, and it was founded in the mid 60s by a gentleman named Ross Perot, and it became a very, very large company. So my first job at Electronic Data Systems was working in a data centre, and we know what data centres are, but back then, data centres were different because they were predominantly mainframe-based data centres, and I would crawl underneath the floor, cabling the computers and cabling networking equipment. Now, when we think networking, we're really thinking one of two kinds of networking. We think of wireless networking or we think of some form of internet networking, but back in those days, there were varieties of network protocols, literally the standards that we use now weren't invented yet. So it was mainframe networking protocols and dial ups and other forms of networking protocols. From there, I worked my way from beneath the ground up. I had some great managers who saw someone who was worthy of opportunity and they gave me opportunity and it was great. And then eventually I started working in electronic data systems and there was, the first wave of AI came in the mid 80s and that's when we were doing things like building expert systems, and I managed to create with a colleague of mine, who's emerged as my best friend, a very successful implementation of an expert system, an AI-based expert system at EDS, and that motivated me to finish off my college degree, I didn't have my college degree at the time. So EDS supported me in going to the University of Michigan, where as you said, I picked up my Bachelor's and Master's degree, and my advisor at the time was Elliot Soloway, and he was doing research in how programmers program, what are the knowledge structures, what are the ways in which we think when we're programming, and I picked up that research and built programming environments, along with educational material, trying to understand how programmers program and trying to build educational material to teach programming more effectively. That's important because it ignited a lifelong passion for developing education materials, etc. Now the cognitive psychology part was handled through that vein of work, the organisational behaviour work came as I was a student at Michigan. As many of us are when we're in college, we don't make a lot of money, or at university we're not wealthy and I needed a job and so the School of Organisational Behaviour had published some job postings and they needed programmers to program software for their organisational behaviour research, and I answered those ads and I became friends and did the research for many ground-breaking aspects of organisational behaviour and I programmed, and in the process of programming for the professors who were in the School of Organisational Behaviour they would teach me about organisational behaviour and I learned many things that at the time were not entirely clear to me, but then when I graduated from university and I became a manager and I also became more involved in the Agile movement, I had a very deep foundation that has served me very well in terms of what do we mean when we say culture, or what do we mean when we talk about organisational structures, both in the small and in the large, how do we organise effectively, when should we scale, when should we not scale, etc. So that's a bit about my history that I think in terms of the early days helped inform who I am today. Ula Ojiaku Wow, who would have thought, it just reminds me of the word serendipity, you know, I guess a happy coincidence, quote unquote, and would there be examples of where the cognitive psychology part of it also helped you work-wise? Luke Hohmann Yeah, a way to think about cognitive psychology and the branch that, I mean there's, psychology is a huge branch of study, right? So cognitive psychology tends to relate to how do we solve problems, and it tends to focus on problem solving where n = 1 and what I mean by n is the number of participants, and where n is just me as an individual, how do I solve the problems that I'm facing? How do I engage in de-compositional activities or refinement or sense making? Organisational behaviour deals with n > 1. So it can deal with a team of, a para-bond, two people solving problems. It can deal with a small team, and we know through many, many, many decades of research that optimal team structures are eight people or less. I mean, we've known this for, when I say decades I mean millennia. When you look at military structure and military strategy, we know that people need to be organised into much smaller groups to be effective in problem solving and to move quickly. And then in any organisational structure, there's some notion of a team of teams or team engagement. So cognitive psychology, I think, helps leaders understand individuals and their place within the team. And now we talk about, you know, in the Agile community, we talk about things like, I want T-shaped people, I want people with common skills and their area of expertise and by organising enough of the T's, I can create a whole and complete team. I often say I don't want my database designer designing my user interface and I don't want my user interface designer optimising my back end database queries, they're different skills. They're very educated people, they're very sophisticated, but there's also the natural feeling that you and I have about how do I gain a sense of self, how do I gain a sense of accomplishment, a sense of mastery? Part of gaining a sense of mastery is understanding who you are as a person, what you're good at. In Japanese, they would call that Ikigai, right, what are the intersections of, you know, what do I love, what am I good at, what can I make a living at and what do people need, right? All of these intersections occur on an individual level, and then by understanding that we can create more effective teams. Ula Ojiaku Thank you. I've really learned something key here, the relationship between cognitive psychology and organisational behaviour, so thanks for breaking it down. Now, can we go quickly to your entrepreneurship? So there must be three times you started three times a company and you've been successful in that area. What exactly drives you when it comes to establishing businesses and then knowing when to move on? Luke Hohmann Sure. I think it's a combination of reflecting on my childhood and then looking at how that informs someone when they're older, and then opportunities, like you said, serendipity, I think that's a really powerful word that you introduced and it's a really powerful concept because sometimes the serendipity is associated with just allowing yourself to pursue something that presents itself. But when I was young, my father died and my mum had to raise six kids on her own, so my dad died when I was four, my mum raised six kids on her own. We were not a wealthy family, and she was a school teacher and one of the things that happened was, even though she was a very skilled school teacher, there were budget cuts and it was a unionised structure, and even though she was ranked very highly, she lost her job because she was low on the hiring totem pole in terms of how the union worked. It was very hard and of course, it's always hard to make budget cuts and firing but I remember when I was very young making one of those choices saying, I want to work in a field where we are more oriented towards someone's performance and not oriented on when they were hired, or the colour of their skin, or their gender or other things that to me didn't make sense that people were making decisions against. And while it's not a perfect field for sure, and we've got lots of improvement, engineering in general, and of course software engineering and software development spoke to me because I could meet people who were diverse or more diverse than in other fields and I thought that was really good. In terms of being an entrepreneur, that happened serendipitously. I was at the time, before I became an entrepreneur in my last job, was working for an Israeli security firm, and years and years ago, I used to do software anti-piracy and software security through physical dongles. This was made by a company called Aladdin Knowledge Systems in Israel, and I was the head of Engineering and Product Management for the dongle group and then I moved into a role of Business Development for the company. I had a couple of great bosses, but I also learned how to do international management because I had development teams in Israel, I had development teams in Munich, I had development teams in Portland, Oregon, and in the Bay Area, and this was in the 2000s. This is kind of pre-Agile, pre-Salt Lake City, pre-Agile Manifesto, but we were figuring things out and blending and working together. I thought things were going pretty well and I enjoyed working for the Israelis and what we were doing, but then we had the first Gulf War and my wife and I felt that maybe traveling as I was, we weren't sure what was going to happen in the war, I should choose something different. Unfortunately, by that time, we had been through the dot-bomb crisis in Silicon Valley. So it's about 2002 at the time that this was going on, and there really weren't jobs, it was a very weird time in Silicon Valley. So in late 2002, I sent an email to a bunch of friends and I said, hey, I'm going to be a consultant, who wants to hire me, that was my marketing plan, not very clever, and someone called me and said, hey, I've got a problem and this is the kind of thing that you can fix, come consult with us. And I said, great. So I did that, and that started the cleverly named Luke Hohmann Consulting, but then one thing led to another and consulting led to opportunities and growth and I've never looked back. So I think that there is a myth about people who start companies where sometimes you have a plan and you go execute your plan. Sometimes you find the problem and you're solving a problem. Sometimes the problem is your own problem, as in my case I had two small kids and a mortgage and I needed to provide for my family, and so the best way to do that at the time was to become a consultant. Since then I have engaged in building companies, sometimes some with more planning, some with more business tools and of course as you grow as an entrepreneur you learn skills that they didn't teach you in school, like marketing and pricing and business planning etc. And so that's kind of how I got started, and now I have kind of come full circle. The last company, the second last company I started was Conteneo and we ended up selling that to Scaled Agile, and that's how I joined the Scaled Agile team and that was lovely, moving from a position of being a CEO and being responsible for certain things, to being able to be part of a team again, joining the framework team, working with Dean Leffingwell and other members of the framework team to evolve the SAFe framework, that was really lovely. And then of course you get this entrepreneurial itch and you want to do something else, and so I think it comes and goes and you kind of allow yourself those opportunities. Ula Ojiaku Wow, yours is an inspiring story. And so what are you now, so you've talked about your first two Startups which you sold, what are you doing now? Luke Hohmann Yeah, so where I'm at right now is I am the Chief Innovation Officer for a company, Applied Frameworks. Applied Frameworks is a boutique consulting firm that's in a transition to a product company. So if this arm represents our product revenue and this arm represents our services revenue, we're expanding our product and eventually we'll become a product company. And so then the question is, well, what is the product that we're working on? Well, if you look at the Agile community, we've spent a lot of time creating and delivering value, and that's really great. We have had, if you look at the Agile community, we've had amazing support from our business counterparts. They've shovelled literally millions and millions of dollars into Agile training and Agile tooling and Agile transformations, and we've seen a lot of benefit from the Agile community. And when I say Agile, I don't mean SAFe or Scrum or some particular flavour of Agile, I just mean Agile in general. There's been hundreds of millions of dollars to billions of dollars shoved into Agile and we've created a lot of value for that investment. We've got fewer bugs in our software because we've got so many teams doing XP driven practices like Test Driven Development, we've got faster response times because we've learned that we can create smaller releases and we've created infrastructure that lets us do deployments automatically, even if you're doing embedded systems, we figured out how to do over the air updates, we've figured out how to create infrastructure where the cars we're driving are now getting software updates. So we've created for our business leaders lots of value, but there's a problem in that value. Our business leaders now need us to create a profit, and creating value and creating a profit are two different things. And so in the pursuit of value, we have allowed our Agile community to avoid and or atrophy on skills that are vital to product management, and I'm a classically trained Product Manager, so I've done market segmentation and market valuation and market sizing, I've done pricing, I've done licensing, I've done acquisitions, I've done compliance. But when you look at the traditional definition of a Product Owner, it's a very small subset of that, especially in certain Agile methods where Product Owners are team centric, they're internal centric. That's okay, I'm not criticising that structure, but what's happened is we've got people who no longer know how to price, how to package, how to license products, and we're seeing companies fail, investor money wasted, too much time trying to figure things out when if we had simply approached the problem with an analysis of not just what am I providing to you in terms of value, but what is that value worth, and how do I structure an exchange where I give you value and you give me money? And that's how businesses survive, and I think what's really interesting about this in terms of Agile is Agile is very intimately tied to sustainability. One of the drivers of the Agile Movement was way back in the 2000s, we were having very unsustainable practices. People would be working 60, 80, death march weeks of grinding out programmers and grinding out people, and part of the Agile Movement was saying, wait a minute, this isn't sustainable, and even the notion of what is a sustainable pace is really vital, but a company cannot sustain itself without a profit, and if we don't actually evolve the Agile community from value streams into profit streams, we can't help our businesses survive. I sometimes ask developers, I say, raise your hand if you're really embracing the idea that your job is to make more money for your company than they pay you, that's called a profit, and if that's not happening, your company's going to fail. Ula Ojiaku They'll be out of a job. Luke Hohmann You'll be out of a job. So if you want to be self-interested about your future, help your company be successful, help them make a profit, and so where I'm at right now is Applied Frameworks has, with my co-author, Jason Tanner, we have published a bold and breakthrough new book called Software Profit Streams, and it's a book that describes how to do pricing and packaging for software enabled solutions. When we say software enabled solution, we mean a solution that has software in it somehow, could be embedded software in your microwave oven, it could be a hosted solution, it could be an API for a payment processor, it could be the software in your car that I talked about earlier. So software enabled solutions are the foundation, the fabric of our modern lives. As Mark Andreessen says software is eating the world, software is going to be in everything, and we need to know how to take the value that we are creating as engineers, as developers, and convert that into pricing and licensing choices that create sustainable profits. Ula Ojiaku Wow. It's as if you read my mind because I was going to ask you about your book, Software Profit Streams, A Guide to Designing a Sustainably Profitable Business. I also noticed that, you know, there is the Profit Stream Canvas that you and your co-author created. So let's assume I am a Product Manager and I've used this, let's assume I went down the path of using the Business Model Canvas and there is the Customer Value Proposition. So how do they complement? Luke Hohmann How do they all work together? I'm glad you asked that, I think that's a very insightful question and the reason it's so helpful is because, well partly because I'm also friends with Alex Osterwalder, I think he's a dear, he's a wonderful human, he's a dear friend. So let's look at the different elements of the different canvases, if you will, and why we think that this is needed. The Business Model Canvas is kind of how am I structuring my business itself, like what are my partners, my suppliers, my relationships, my channel strategy, my brand strategy with respect to my customer segments, and it includes elements of cost, which we're pretty good at. We're pretty good at knowing our costs and elements of revenue, but the key assumption of revenue, of course, is the selling price and the number of units sold. So, but if you look at the book, Business Model Generation, where the Business Model Canvas comes from, it doesn't actually talk about how to set the price. Is the video game going to be $49? Is it going to be $59, or £49 or £59? Well, there's a lot of thought that goes into that. Then we have the Value Proposition Canvas, which highlights what are the pains the customer is facing? What are the gains that the customer is facing? What are the jobs to be done of the customer? How does my solution relate to the jobs? How does it help solve the pain the customer is feeling? How does it create gain for the customer? But if you read those books, and both of those books are on my shelf because they're fantastic books, it doesn't talk about pricing. So let's say I create a gain for you. Well, how much can I charge you for the gain that I've created? How do I structure that relationship? And how do I know, going back to my Business Model Canvas, that I've got the right market segment, I've got the right investment strategy, I might need to make an investment in the first one or two releases of my software or my product before I start to make a per unit profit because I'm evolving, it's called the J curve and the J curve is how much money am I investing before I well, I have to be able to forecast that, I have to be able to model that, but the key input to that is what is the price, what is the mechanism of packaging that you're using, is it, for example, is it per user in a SAS environment or is it per company in a SAS environment? Is it a meter? Is it like an API transaction using Stripe or a payment processor, Adyen or Stripe or Paypal or any of the others that are out there? Or is it an API call where I'm charging a fraction of a penny for any API call? All of those elements have to be put into an economic model and a forecast has to be created. Now, what's missing about this is that the Business Model Canvas and the Value Proposition Canvas don't give you the insight on how to set the price, they just say there is a price and we're going to use it in our equations. So what we've done is we've said, look, setting the price is itself a complex system, and what I mean by a complex system is that, let's say that I wanted to do an annual license for a new SAS offering, but I offer that in Europe and now my solution is influenced or governed by GDPR compliance, where I have data retention and data privacy laws. So my technical architecture that has to enforce the license, also has to comply with something in terms of the market in which I'm selling. This complex system needs to be organised, and so what canvases do is in all of these cases, they let us take a complex system and put some structure behind the choices that we're making in that complex system so that we can make better choices in terms of system design. I know how I want this to work, I know how I want this to be structured, and therefore I can make system choices so the system is working in a way that benefits the stakeholders. Not just me, right, I'm not the only stakeholder, my customers are in this system, my suppliers are in this system, society itself might be in the system, depending on the system I'm building or the solution I'm building. So the canvases enable us to make system level choices that are hopefully more effective in achieving our goals. And like I said, the Business Model Canvas, the Value Proposition Canvas are fantastic, highly recommended, but they don't cover pricing. So we needed something to cover the actual pricing and packaging and licensing. Ula Ojiaku Well, that's awesome. So it's really more about going, taking a deeper dive into thoughtfully and structurally, if I may use that word, assessing the pricing. Luke Hohmann Yeah, absolutely. Ula Ojiaku Would you say that in doing this there would be some elements of, you know, testing and getting feedback from actual customers to know what price point makes sense? Luke Hohmann Absolutely. There's a number of ways in which customer engagement or customer testing is involved. The very first step that we advocate is a Customer Benefit Analysis, which is what are the actual benefits you're creating and how are your customers experiencing those benefits. Those experiences are both tangible and intangible and that's another one of the challenges that we face in the Agile community. In general, the Agile community spends a little bit more time on tangible or functional value than intangible value. So we, in terms of if I were to look at it in terms of a computer, we used to say speeds and feeds. How fast is the processor? How fast is the network? How much storage is on my disk space? Those are all functional elements. Over time as our computers have become plenty fast or plenty storage wise for most of our personal computing needs, we see elements of design come into play, elements of usability, elements of brand, and we see this in other areas. Cars have improved in quality so much that many of us, the durability of the car is no longer a significant attribute because all cars are pretty durable, they're pretty good, they're pretty well made. So now we look at brand, we look at style, we look at aesthetics, we look at even paying more for a car that aligns with our values in terms of the environment. I want to get an EV, why, because I want to be more environmentally conscious. That's a value driven, that's an intangible factor. And so our first step starts with Customer Benefit Analysis looking at both functional or tangible value and intangible value, and you can't do that, as you can imagine, you can't do that without having customer interaction and awareness with your stakeholders and your customers, and that also feeds throughout the whole pricing process. Eventually, you're going to put your product in a market, and that's a form itself of market research. Did customers buy, and if they didn't buy, why did they not buy? Is it poorly packaged or is it poorly priced? These are all elements that involve customers throughout the process. Ula Ojiaku If I may, I know we've been on the topic of your latest book Software Profit Streams. I'm just wondering, because I can't help but try to connect the dots and I'm wondering if there might be a connection to one of your books, Innovation Games: Creating Breakthrough Products Through Collaborative Play, something like buy a feature in your book, that kind of came to mind, could there be a way of using that as part of the engagement with customers in setting a pricing strategy? I may be wrong, I'm just asking a question. Luke Hohmann I think you're making a great connection. There's two forms of relationship that Innovation Games and the Innovation Games book have with Software Profit Streams. One is, as you correctly noted, just the basics of market research, where do key people have pains or gains and what it might be worth. That work is also included in Alex Osterwalder's books, Value Proposition Design for example, when I've been doing Value Proposition Design and I'm trying to figure out the customer pains, you can use the Innovation Games Speed Boat. And when I want to figure out the gains, I can use the Innovation Game Product Box. Similarly, when I'm figuring out pricing and licensing, a way, and it's a very astute idea, a way to understand price points of individual features is to do certain kinds of market research. One form of market research you can do is Buy-a-Feature, which gives a gauge of what people are willing or might be willing to pay for a feature. It can be a little tricky because the normal construction of Buy-a-Feature is based on cost. However, your insight is correct, you can extend Buy-a-Feature such that you're testing value as opposed to cost, and seeing what, if you take a feature that costs X, but inflate that cost by Y and a Buy-a-Feature game, if people still buy it, it's a strong signal strength that first they want it, and second it may be a feature that you can, when delivered, would motivate you to raise the price of your offering and create a better profit for your company. Ula Ojiaku Okay, well, thank you. I wasn't sure if I was on the right lines. Luke Hohmann It's a great connection. Ula Ojiaku Thanks again. I mean, it's not original. I'm just piggybacking on your ideas. So with respect to, if we, if you don't mind, let's shift gears a bit because I know that, or I'm aware that whilst you were with Scaled Agile Incorporated, you know, you played a key part in developing some of their courses, like the Product POPM, and I think the Portfolio Management, and there was the concept about Participatory Budgeting. Can we talk about that, please? Luke Hohmann I'd love to talk about that, I mean it's a huge passion of mine, absolutely. So in February of 2018, I started working with the framework team and in December of 2018, we talked about the possibility of what an acquisition might look like and the benefits it would create, which would be many. That closed in May of 2019, and in that timeframe, we were working on SAFe 5.0 and so there were a couple of areas in which I was able to make some contributions. One was in Agile product delivery competency, the other was in lean portfolio management. I had a significant hand in restructuring or adding the POPM, APM, and LPM courses, adding things like solutions by horizons to SAFe, taking the existing content on guardrails, expanding it a little bit, and of course, adding Participatory Budgeting, which is just a huge passion of mine. I've done Participatory Budgeting now for 20 years, I've helped organisations make more than five billions of dollars of investment spending choices at all levels of companies, myself and my colleagues at Applied Frameworks, and it just is a better way to make a shared decision. If you think about one of the examples they use about Participatory Budgeting, is my preferred form of fitness is I'm a runner and so, and my wife is also a fit person. So if she goes and buys a new pair of shoes or trainers and I go and buy a new pair of trainers, we don't care, because it's a small purchase. It's frequently made and it's within the pattern of our normal behaviour. However, if I were to go out and buy a new car without involving her, that feels different, right, it's a significant purchase, it requires budgeting and care, and is this car going to meet our needs? Our kids are older than your kids, so we have different needs and different requirements, and so I would be losing trust in my pair bond with my wife if I made a substantial purchase without her involvement. Well, corporations work the same way, because we're still people. So if I'm funding a value stream, I'm funding the consistent and reliable flow of valuable items, that's what value stream funding is supposed to do. However, if there is a significant investment to be made, even if the value stream can afford it, it should be introduced to the portfolio for no other reason than the social structure of healthy organisations says that we do better when we're talking about these things, that we don't go off on our own and make significant decisions without the input of others. That lowers transparency, that lowers trust. So I am a huge advocate of Participatory Budgeting, I'm very happy that it's included in SAFe as a recommended practice, both for market research and Buy-a-Feature in APM, but also more significantly, if you will, at the portfolio level for making investment decisions. And I'm really excited to share that we've just published an article a few weeks ago about Participatory Budgeting and what's called The Color of Money, and The Color of Money is sometimes when you have constraints on how you can spend money, and an example of a constraint is let's say that a government raised taxes to improve transportation infrastructure. Well, the money that they took in is constrained in a certain way. You can't spend it, for example, on education, and so we have to show how Participatory Budgeting can be adapted to have relationships between items like this item requires this item as a precedent or The Color of Money, constraints of funding items, but I'm a big believer, we just published that article and you can get that at the Scaled Agile website, I'm a big believer in the social power of making these financial decisions and the benefits that accrue to people and organisations when they collaborate in this manner. Ula Ojiaku Thanks for going into that, Luke. So, would there be, in your experience, any type of organisation that's participatory? It's not a leading question, it's just genuine, there are typically outliers and I'm wondering in your experience, and in your opinion, if there would be organisations that it might not work for? Luke Hohmann Surprisingly, no, but I want to add a few qualifications to the effective design of a Participatory Budgeting session. When people hear Participatory Budgeting, there's different ways that you would apply Participatory Budgeting in the public and private sector. So I've done citywide Participatory Budgeting in cities and if you're a citizen of a city and you meet the qualifications for voting within that jurisdiction, in the United States, it's typically that you're 18 years old, in some places you have to be a little older, in some places you might have other qualifications, but if you're qualified to participate as a citizen in democratic processes, then you should be able to participate in Participatory Budgeting sessions that are associated with things like how do we spend taxes or how do we make certain investments. In corporations it's not quite the same way. Just because you work at a company doesn't mean you should be included in portfolio management decisions that affect the entire company. You may not have the background, you may not have the training, you may be what my friends sometimes call a fresher. So I do a lot of work overseas, so freshers, they just may not have the experience to participate. So one thing that we look at in Participatory Budgeting and SAFe is who should be involved in the sessions, and that doesn't mean that every single employee should always be included, because their background, I mean, they may be a technical topic and maybe they don't have the right technical background. So we work a little bit harder in corporations to make sure the right people are there. Now, of course, if we're going to make a mistake, we tend to make the mistake of including more people than excluding, partly because in SAFe Participatory Budgeting, it's a group of people who are making a decision, not a one person, one vote, and that's really profoundly important because in a corporation, just like in a para-bond, your opinion matters to me, I want to know what you're thinking. If I'm looking in, I'll use SAFe terminology, if I'm looking at three epics that could advance our portfolio, and I'm a little unsure about two of those epics, like one of those epics, I'm like, yeah, this is a really good thing, I know a little bit about it, this matters, I'm going to fund this, but the other two I'm not so sure about, well, there's no way I can learn through reading alone what the opinions of other people are, because, again, there's these intangible factors. There's these elements that may not be included in an ROI analysis, it's kind of hard to talk about brand and an ROI analysis - we can, but it's hard, so I want to listen to how other people are talking about things, and through that, I can go, yeah, I can see the value, I didn't see it before, I'm going to join you in funding this. So that's among the ways in which Participatory Budgeting is a little different within the private sector and the public sector and within a company. The only other element that I would add is that Participatory Budgeting gives people the permission to stop funding items that are no longer likely to meet the investment or objectives of the company, or to change minds, and so one of the, again, this is a bit of an overhang in the Agile community, Agile teams are optimised for doing things that are small, things that can fit within a two or three week Sprint. That's great, no criticism there, but our customers and our stakeholders want big things that move the market needle, and the big things that move the market needle don't get done in two or three weeks, in general, and they rarely, like they require multiple teams working multiple weeks to create a really profoundly new important thing. And so what happens though, is that we need to make in a sense funding commitments for these big things, but we also have to have a way to change our mind, and so traditional funding processes, they let us make this big commitment, but they're not good at letting us change our mind, meaning they're not Agile. Participatory Budgeting gives us the best of both worlds. I can sit at the table with you and with our colleagues, we can commit to funding something that's big, but six months later, which is the recommended cadence from SAFe, I can come back to that table and reassess and we can all look at each other, because you know those moments, right, you've had that experience in visiting, because you're like looking around the table and you're like, yeah, this isn't working. And then in traditional funding, we keep funding what's not working because there's no built-in mechanism to easily change it, but in SAFe Participatory Budgeting, you and I can sit at the table and we can look at each other with our colleagues and say, yeah, you know, that initiative just, it's not working, well, let's change our mind, okay, what is the new thing that we can fund? What is the new epic? And that permission is so powerful within a corporation. Ula Ojiaku Thanks for sharing that, and whilst you were speaking, because again, me trying to connect the dots and thinking, for an organisation that has adopted SAFe or it's trying to scale Agility, because like you mentioned, Agile teams are optimised to iteratively develop or deliver, you know, small chunks over time, usually two to three weeks, but, like you said, there is a longer time horizon spanning months, even years into the future, sometimes for those worthwhile, meaty things to be delivered that moves the strategic needle if I may use that buzzword. So, let's say we at that lean portfolio level, we're looking at epics, right, and Participatory Budgeting, we are looking at initiatives on an epic to epic basis per se, where would the Lean Startup Cycle come in here? So is it that Participatory Budgeting could be a mechanism that is used for assessing, okay, this is the MVP features that have been developed and all that, the leading indicators we've gotten, that's presented to the group, and on that basis, we make that pivot or persevere or stop decision, would that fit in? Luke Hohmann Yeah, so let's, I mean, you're close, but let me make a few turns and then it'll click better. First, let's acknowledge that the SAFe approach to the Lean Startup Cycle is not the Eric Ries approach, there are some differences, but let's separate how I fund something from how I evaluate something. So if I'm going to engage in the SAFe Lean Startup Cycle, part of that engagement is to fund an MVP, which is going to prove or disprove a given hypothesis. So that's an expenditure of money. Now there's, if you think about the expenditure of money, there's minimally two steps in this process - there's spending enough money to conduct the experiments, and if those experiments are true, making another commitment to spend money again, that I want to spend it. The reason this is important is, let's say I had three experiments running in parallel and I'm going to use easy round numbers for a large corporation. Let's say I want to run three experiments in parallel, and each experiment costs me a million pounds. Okay. So now let's say that the commercialisation of each of those is an additional amount of money. So the portfolio team sits around the table and says, we have the money, we're going to fund all three. Okay, great. Well, it's an unlikely circumstance, but let's say all three are successful. Well, this is like a venture capitalist, and I have a talk that I give that relates the funding cycle of a venture capitalist to the funding cycle of an LPM team. While it's unlikely, you could have all three become successful, and this is what I call an oversubscribed portfolio. I've got three great initiatives, but I can still only fund one or two of them, I still have to make the choice. Now, of course, I'm going to look at my economics and let's say out of the three initiatives that were successfully proven through their hypothesis, let's say one of them is just clearly not as economically attractive, for whatever reason. Okay, we get rid of that one, now, I've got two, and if I can only fund one of them, and the ROI, the hard ROI is roughly the same, that's when Participatory Budgeting really shines, because we can have those leaders come back into the room, and they can say, which choice do we want to make now? So the evaluative aspect of the MVP is the leading indicators and the results of the proving or disproving of the hypotheses. We separate that from the funding choices, which is where Participatory Budgeting and LPM kick in. Ula Ojiaku Okay. So you've separated the proving or disproving the hypothesis of the feature, some of the features that will probably make up an epic. And you're saying the funding, the decision to fund the epic in the first place is a different conversation. And you've likened it to Venture Capital funding rounds. Where do they connect? Because if they're separate, what's the connecting thread between the two? Luke Hohmann The connected thread is the portfolio process, right? The actual process is the mechanism where we're connecting these things. Ula Ojiaku OK, no, thanks for the portfolio process. But there is something you mentioned, ROI - Return On Investment. And sometimes when you're developing new products, you don't know, you have assumptions. And any ROI, sorry to put it this way, but you're really plucking figures from the air, you know, you're modelling, but there is no certainty because you could hit the mark or you could go way off the mark. So where does that innovation accounting coming into place, especially if it's a product that's yet to make contact with, you know, real life users, the customers. Luke Hohmann Well, let's go back to something you said earlier, and what you talked earlier about was the relationship that you have in market researching customer interaction. In making a forecast, let's go ahead and look at the notion of building a new product within a company, and this is again where the Agile community sometimes doesn't want to look at numbers or quote, unquote get dirty, but we have to, because if I'm going to look at building a new idea, or taking a new idea into a product, I have to have a forecast of its viability. Is it economically viable? Is it a good choice? So innovation accounting is a way to look at certain data, but before, I'm going to steal a page, a quote, from one of my friends, Jeff Patton. The most expensive way to figure this out is to actually build the product. So what can I do that's less expensive than building the product itself? I can still do market research, but maybe I wouldn't do an innovation game, maybe I'd do a formal survey and I use a price point testing mechanism like Van Westendorp Price Point Analysis, which is a series of questions that you ask to triangulate on acceptable price ranges. I can do competitive benchmarking for similar products and services. What are people offering right now in the market? Now that again, if the product is completely novel, doing competitive benchmarking can be really hard. Right now, there's so many people doing streaming that we look at the competitive market, but when Netflix first offered streaming and it was the first one, their best approach was what we call reference pricing, which is, I have a reference price for how much I pay for my DVDs that I'm getting in the mail, I'm going to base my streaming service kind of on the reference pricing of entertainment, although that's not entirely clear that that was the best way to go, because you could also base the reference price on what you're paying for a movie ticket and how many, but then you look at consumption, right, because movie tickets are expensive, so I only go to a movie maybe once every other month, whereas streaming is cheap and so I can change my demand curve by lowering my price. But this is why it's such a hard science is because we have this notion of these swirling factors. Getting specifically back to your question about the price point, I do have to do some market research before I go into the market to get some forecasting and some confidence, and research gives me more confidence, and of course, once I'm in the market, I'll know how effective my research matched the market reality. Maybe my research was misleading, and of course, there's some skill in designing research, as you know, to get answers that have high quality signal strength. Ula Ojiaku Thanks for clarifying. That makes perfect sense to me. Luke Hohmann It's kind of like a forecast saying, like there's a group of Agile people who will say, like, you shouldn't make forecasts. Well, I don't understand that because that's like saying, and people will say, well, I can't predict the future. Well, okay, I can't predict when I'm going to retire, but I'm planning to retire. I don't know the date of my exact retirement, but my wife and I are planning our retirement, and we're saving, we're making certain investment choices for our future, because we expect to have a future together. Now our kids are older than yours. My kids are now in university, and so we're closer to retirement. So what I dislike about the Agile community is people will sometimes say, well, I don't know the certainty of the event, therefore, I can't plan for it. But that's really daft, because there are many places in like, you may not for the listeners, her daughter is a little younger than my kids, but they will be going to university one day, and depending on where they go, that's a financial choice. So you could say, well, I don't know when she's going to university, and I can't predict what university she's going to go to, therefore I'm not going to save any money. Really? That doesn't make no sense. So I really get very upset when you have people in the agile community will say things like road mapping or forecasting is not Agile. It's entirely Agile. How you treat it is Agile or not Agile. Like when my child comes up to me and says, hey, you know about that going to university thing, I was thinking of taking a gap year. Okay, wait a minute, that's a change. That doesn't mean no, it means you're laughing, right? But that's a change. And so we respond to change, but we still have a plan. Ula Ojiaku It makes sense. So the reason, and I completely resonate with everything you said, the reason I raised that ROI and it not being known is that in some situations, people might be tempted to use it to game the budget allocation decision making process. That's why I said you would pluck the ROI. Luke Hohmann Okay, let's talk about that. We actually address this in our recent paper, but I'll give you my personal experience. You are vastly more likely to get bad behaviour on ROI analysis when you do not do Participatory Budgeting, because there's no social construct to prevent bad behaviour. If I'm sitting down at a table and that's virtual or physical, it doesn't matter, but let's take a perfect optimum size for a Participatory Budgeting group. Six people, let's say I'm a Director or a Senior Director in a company, and I'm sitting at a table and there's another Senior Director who's a peer, maybe there's a VP, maybe there's a person from engineering, maybe there's a person from sales and we've got this mix of people and I'm sitting at that table. I am not incented to come in with an inflated ROI because those people are really intelligent and given enough time, they're not going to support my initiative because I'm fibbing, I'm lying. And I have a phrase for this, it's when ROI becomes RO-lie that it's dangerous. And so when I'm sitting at that table, what we find consistently, and one of the clients that we did a fair amount of Participatory Budgeting for years ago with Cisco, what we found was the leaders at Cisco were creating tighter, more believable, and more defensible economic projections, precisely because they knew that they were going to be sitting with their peers, and it didn't matter. It can go both ways. Sometimes people will overestimate the ROI or they underestimate the cost. Same outcome, right? I'm going to overestimate the benefit, and people would be like, yeah, I don't think you can build that product with three teams. You're going to need five or six teams and people go, oh, I can get it done with, you know, 20 people. Yeah, I don't think so, because two years ago, we built this product. It's very similar, and, you know, we thought we could get it done with 20 people and we couldn't. We really needed, you know, a bigger group. So you see the social construct creating a more believable set of results because people come to the Participatory Budgeting session knowing that their peers are in the room. And of course, we think we're smart, so our peers are as smart as we are, we're all smart people, and therefore, the social construct of Participatory Budgeting quite literally creates a better input, which creates a better output. Ula Ojiaku That makes sense, definitely. Thanks for sharing that. I've found that very, very insightful and something I can easily apply. The reasoning behind it, the social pressure, quote unquote, knowing that you're not just going to put the paper forward but you'd have to defend it in a credible, believable way make sense. So just to wrap up now, what books have you found yourself recommending to people the most, and why? Luke Hohmann It's so funny, I get yelled at by my wife for how many books I buy. She'll go like “It's Amazon again. Another book. You know, there's this thing called the library.” Ula Ojiaku You should do Participatory Budgeting for your books then sounds like, sorry. Luke Hohmann No, no, I don't, I'd lose. Gosh, I love so many books. So there's a few books that I consider to be my go-to references and my go-to classics, but I also recommend that people re-read books and sometimes I recommend re-reading books is because you're a different person, and as you age and as you grow and you see things differently and in fact, I'm right now re-reading and of course it goes faster, but I'm re-reading the original Extreme Programming Explained by Kent Beck, a fantastic book. I just finished reading a few new books, but let me let me give you a couple of classics that I think everyone in our field should read and why they should read them. I think everyone should read The Mythical Man-Month by Fred Brooks because he really covers some very profound truths that haven't changed, things like Brooks Law, which is adding programmers to a late project, makes it later. He talks about the structure of teams and how to scale before scaling was big and important and cool. He talks about communication and conceptual integrity and the role of the architect. The other book that I'm going to give, which I hope is different than any book that anyone has ever given you, because it's one of my absolute favourite books and I give them away, is a book called Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud. Comics or graphic novels are an important medium for communication, and when we talk about storytelling and we talk about how to frame information and how to present information, understanding comics is profoundly insightful in terms of how to present, share, show information. A lot of times I think we make things harder than they should be. So when I'm working with executives and some of the clients that I work with personally, when we talk about our epics, we actually will tell stories about the hero's journey and we actually hire comic book artists to help the executives tell their story in a comic form or in a graphic novel form. So I absolutely love understanding comics. I think that that's really a profound book. Of course you mentioned Alex Osterwalder's books, Business Model Generation, Business Model Canvas. Those are fantastic books for Product Managers. I also, just looking at my own bookshelves, of course, Innovation Games for PMs, of course Software Profit Streams because we have to figure out how to create sustainability, but in reality there's so many books that we love and that we share and that we grow together when we're sharing books and I'll add one thing. Please don't only limit your books to technical books. We're humans too. I recently, this week and what I mean recent I mean literally this weekend I was visiting one of my kids in Vermont all the way across the country, and so on the plane ride I finished two books, one was a very profound and deeply written book called Ponyboy. And then another one was a very famous book on a woman protagonist who's successful in the 60s, Lessons in Chemistry, which is a new book that's out, and it was a super fun light read, some interesting lessons of course, because there's always lessons in books, and now if it's okay if I'm not overstepping my boundaries, what would be a book that you'd like me to read? I love to add books to my list. Ula Ojiaku Oh my gosh, I didn't know. You are the first guest ever who's twisted this on me, but I tend to read multiple books at a time. Luke Hohmann Only two. Ula Ojiaku Yeah, so, and I kind of switch, maybe put some on my bedside and you know there's some on my Kindle and in the car, just depending. So I'm reading multiple books at a time, but based on what you've said the one that comes to mind is the new book by Oprah Winfrey and it's titled What Happened to You? Understanding Trauma, because like you said, it's not just about reading technical books and we're human beings and we find out that people behave probably sometimes in ways that are different to us, and it's not about saying what's wrong with you, because there is a story that we might not have been privy to, you know, in terms of their childhood, how they grew up, which affected their worldview and how they are acting, so things don't just suddenly happen. And the question that we have been asked and we sometimes ask of people, and for me, I'm reading it from a parent's perspective because I understand that even more so that my actions, my choices, they play a huge, you know, part in shaping my children. So it's not saying what's wrong with you? You say, you know, what happened to you? And it traces back to, based on research, because she wrote it with a renowned psychologist, I don't know his field but a renowned psychologist, so neuroscience-based psychological research on human beings, attachment theory and all that, just showing how early childhood experiences, even as early as maybe a few months old, tend to affect people well into adulthood. So that would be my recommendation. Luke Hohmann Thank you so much. That's a gift. Ula Ojiaku Thank you. You're the first person to ask me. So, my pleasure. So, before we go to the final words, where can the audience find you, because you have a wealth of knowledge, a wealth of experience, and I am sure that people would want to get in touch with you, so how can they do this please? Luke Hohmann Yeah, well, they can get me on LinkedIn and they can find me at Applied Frameworks. I tell you, I teach classes that are known to be very profound because we always reserve, myself and the instructors at Applied Frameworks, we have very strong commitments to reserving class time for what we call the parking lot or the ask me anything question, which are many times after I've covered the core material in the class, having the opportunity to really frame how to apply something is really important. So I would definitely encourage people to take one of my classes because you'll not get the material, you'll get the reasons behind the material, which means you can apply it, but you'll also be able to ask us questions and our commitment as a company is you can ask us anything and if we don't know the answer, we'll help you find it. We'll help you find the expert or the person that you need talk to, to help you out and be successful. And then, and I think in terms of final words, I will simply ask people to remember that we get to work in the most amazing field building things for other people and it's joyful work, and we, one of my phrases is you're not doing Agile, if you're not having fun at work, there's something really wrong, there's something missing, yeah we need to retrospect and we need to improve and we need to reflect and all those important things, absolutely, but we should allow ourselves to experience the joy of serving others and being of service and building things that matter. Ula Ojiaku I love the concept of joyful Agile and getting joy in building things that matter, serving people and may I add also working together with amazing people, and for me it's been a joyful conversation with you, Luke, I really appreciate you making the time, I am definitely richer and more enlightened as a result of this conversation, so thank you so much once more. Luke Hohmann Thank you so much for having me here, thank you everyone for listening with us. Ula Ojiaku  My pleasure. That's all we have for now. Thanks for listening. If you liked this show, do subscribe at www.agileinnovationleaders.com or your favourite podcast provider. Also share with friends and do leave a review on iTunes. This would help others find this show. I'd also love to hear from you, so please drop me an email at ula@agileinnovationleaders.com Take care and God bless!   

Emir Zecovic, an experienced marketing professional in the B2B and SaaS space, joins Mike for a discussion about how to market B2B technology products. Emir highlights how marketers often miss opportunities by not focussing on large non-English speaking markets like South America and India. He shares why marketers should be data-obsessed to understand what influences the buying journey, and why working within start-ups may offer new marketers greater career opportunities.    About TextGrid, 12min and OpenGraph TextGrid offers communication APIs for SMS, MMS, voice and email. With cloud communications, businesses are empowered to build, scale and innovate. 12min is a platform that chooses, reads and summarises the most important non-fiction books. OpenGraph generates meta tags and social media previews for any URL on the web in a few simple steps.   About Emir Emir Zecovic is CMO at 12min and is currently also in transition between roles as CMO at TextGrid and Senior Business Development Consultant at OpenGraph. He is a determined, data-driven and versatile marketer with over 7 years of experience in managing teams, devising and implementing growth strategies for SaaS B2B and B2C companies.   Time Stamps [00:51.1] – Emir shares how he got to this point in his career. [04:46.8] – Emir discusses why it is important not to overlook non-English speaking markets. [08:49.7] – Emir shares his approach to marketing as a CMO. [16:27.0] – How does Emir encourage form fills? [20:26.8] – What impact is AI going to have on the industry. [23:58.1] – Emir offers some career advice to new marketeers. [26:42.9] – Emir's contact details.   Quotes “Trying to be as international as possible in a business is always a good idea, don't underestimate countries you're not familiar with.” Mike Maynard, Managing Director at Napier. “I've heard people say that they don't like Google Ads or Facebook ads or SEO, but I doubt anybody has ever said that they regret having a good email list” Emir Zecovic, CMO at 12min   Follow Emir: Emir Zecovic on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emir-zecovic-074882166/ TextGrid Website: https://textgrid.com/ TextGird LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/textgrid/ OpenGraph Website: https://www.opengraph.xyz/   Follow Mike: Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/ Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/ Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/   If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform. Want more? Check out Napier's other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Choose the best opportunities to grow your company. Simplify deal sourcing and extend your business network with a trusted, easy-to-use platform that's tailored to you. Connect with Marius

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In an enlightening episode of the Sales Talk for CEOs Podcast, Alice Heiman engages with Malin Schmidt, not just as the CEO of Kodiak Hub, a pioneer in supplier relationship management software, but as a visionary leader whose journey epitomizes the fusion of sustainability and technology in business. Schmidt's transition from a sustainability advocate to a tech entrepreneur offers invaluable lessons on the intersection of technology, procurement, and sustainable business practices, making her path a beacon for CEOs and leaders aiming to navigate the complexities of modern industries.A Journey of Resilience and InnovationAt the heart of Schmidt's story is her unwavering commitment to sustainability, which led her to challenge the traditional cost-centric models in procurement. Her philosophy, "What we want to do is to put the right data and insights in front of the strategic buyer...including the quality of what you buy, how it has been produced, and of course, to the right price," reflects a holistic approach to business that balances economic, environmental, and social factors.Kodiak Hub's utilization of technology to foster transparency and drive change is a testament to Schmidt's forward-thinking leadership. She emphasizes the importance of not just collecting data but using it to identify and act on opportunities for improvement, stating, "One thing is to report and to measure. But if those data points are not used to drive and identify opportunities for change...then what use is it to just report?" This approach underscores the role of technology as a catalyst for meaningful change, beyond mere efficiency gains.Schmidt's leadership journey is also marked by resilience, particularly in the face of challenges such as the COVID-19 pandemic. Her ability to lead Kodiak Hub to double its growth consecutively highlights the significance of agility and customer-centric innovation in overcoming obstacles. This resilience, coupled with a strategic focus on growth, offers a blueprint for CEOs navigating uncertain times.Emphasizing Creativity and Innovation in LeadershipA distinctive feature of Schmidt's leadership style is her emphasis on creativity in hiring. By exploring candidates' personal journeys and thought processes, Schmidt seeks to uncover their innovative potential, ensuring that Kodiak Hub's team is not only technically adept but also capable of thinking outside the box to drive sustainable solutions and innovation. This approach to building a team underscores the critical role of creativity in fostering innovation and navigating the complexities of technology and sustainability.Key Insights for CEOsSchmidt's journey and leadership at Kodiak Hub offer several key takeaways for CEOs and business leaders:Sustainability as a Core Business Strategy: Schmidt's emphasis on sustainability highlights its importance as a competitive advantage and a pillar for long-term business success.The Power of Technology for Change: Leveraging technology for transparency and to drive actionable change is crucial for modern businesses aiming to stay ahead.Resilience Through Innovation: Schmidt's ability to guide her company through challenges underscores the importance of innovation and customer-centric approaches in ensuring business continuity and growth.Creativity in Leadership: Valuing creativity in the hiring process ensures a team capable of innovative thinking and problem-solving, key components for addressing today's complex business challenges.For CEOs and business leaders looking to embrace sustainable business practices and navigate the complexities of modern supply chains, Malin Schmidt's insights provide a roadmap for leveraging technology, understanding buyer needs, and prioritizing sustainability to drive business growth and innovation. Her journey from a sustainability advocate to a leading CEO in the tech space is not just inspiring but also offers practical strategies for leadership in the 21st century.About GuestMalin Schmidt, a seasoned SaaS B2B entrepreneur, seamlessly blends her expertise in Operations, Supply Chain Management, and SustainTech to reshape global business collaborations. Malin stands at the forefront of innovation in the realm of Supplier Relationship Management (SRM) software as the Founder and CEO of Kodiak Hub. Recognized as one of the Top 100 most influential Women in Supply Chain, Malin has carved an indelible mark in the industry by steering Kodiak Hub to unprecedented success. For Malin, the creation of Kodiak Hub represents the most rewarding and enjoyable venture in her career. With a mission to assist brands in developing sustainable supply chains at scale, Kodiak Hub, under Malin's guidance, has become synonymous with innovation and excellence in the industry. She emphasizes the importance of balancing expansion with consolidation in her business building, to ensure organizational scalability and sustainable modes of operating.Her continuous mission is to develop the Kodiak Hub platform to consistently surprise and delight users, delivering top-line value for large enterprises and solving the challenges residing in global supply chains.Social Links Connect with Malin on Linked In(99+) Malin Schmidt | LinkedInCheck out Kodiak Hub's Website:Kodiak Hub | Supplier Relationship Management Platform(99+) Kodiak Hub: Overview | LinkedInKodiak Hub on YouTube:Kodiak Hub - YouTubeConnect with Alice on LinkedIn:(4) Alice Heiman | LinkedInCheck out Alice's website:Alice Heiman | Sales Consultant and Strategist for CEOs 

Just wrapped up an incredible podcast episode with Ben Kazinik, and I'm buzzing with insights to share! This conversation ventured into the realms of SEO, social media, content marketing, and the fascinating interplay between them. Ben is an experienced well-rounded marketing manager. He grew a B2C home decor company to over $1M in annual revenue. He worked for several SAAS B2B companies managing email marketing, content marketing, and affiliates. He has created and managed blogs, affiliate programs, referral programs, influencers, cold email outreach and social media. He has a deep passion for CRO, A/B testing and UI/UX. Ever find yourself pondering the heavyweight match between SEO and social media? Which should lead your digital strategy? Ben brought a wealth of knowledge, discussing how blending expert matchmaking with strategic content creation can revolutionize how we approach marketing. Imagine a world where finding the right marketing talent is as easy as swiping right on a dating app—this is the future Ben envisions with Maple, a platform connecting brands with marketing mavens. We delved into real-world examples, showcasing how companies like ClickUp are empowering experts to elevate their brands and the remarkable impact of strategic content on LinkedIn. For anyone navigating the complex digital marketing landscape, this episode is a goldmine of actionable strategies and innovative insights. Whether you're a seasoned marketer or just getting your feet wet, there's something in here for you. Curious? Dive into the full episode to turbocharge your marketing strategies. Don't forget to subscribe and join the conversation. Your next big idea might just be a play button away! Connect with Ben: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-kazinik/ Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 0:14 Social media vs SEO strategies for content creators 2:50 Content marketing and expert matching platform 7:24 Empowering subject matter experts for brand promotion 8:45 Leveraging LinkedIn for business growth 14:47 LinkedIn content strategy and personal branding 20:44 Marketing, content, and SEO strategies 24:20 AI's impact on content creation and marketing strategies 33:03 B2B marketing strategies and SEO effectiveness 34:32 Marketing strategies and avoiding burnout 38:47 Work-life balance and creativity. 45:08 Mentorship, community building, and partnerships for business growth 50:06 Marriage advice, community-building, and overcoming fear of vulnerability Subscribe to FUNKY MARKETING: BOLD STRATEGIES FOR B2B GROWTH AND REVENUE on any podcast platform and drop a question here in the comments. Website: https://www.funkymarketing.net/funky-marketing-show/ Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/funky-marketing-bold-strategies-for-b2b-growth-and-revenue/id1501543408?uo=4 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/136A3zxZ5JYCukvphVP56M YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@funky_marketing Give us a review: https://ratethispodcast.com/funkymarketingshow/ And if you need help, check out the Funky Marketing Pricing page: https://www.funkymarketing.net/pricing/ #Innovation #BusinessStrategy #Podcast #StorytellingInBusiness #MarketingInsights #B2BSaaS #ProfessionalGrowth #linkedinnetworking #funkymarketing #b2b #marketing #sales #demand #revenue #podcast #contentmarketing #strategy #MarketingAndSales #RealWorldExamples #BusinessStrategy #DigitalTransformation #GrowthMindset #MarketingStrategy #SalesAlignment #InnovativeMarketing #CustomerJourney #BusinessGrowth #PersonalBranding #B2BMarketing #Storytelling #LinkedInStrategy #positioning#LinkedInGrowth #PersonalBranding #BusinessNetworking #PodcastInsights #EngagementStrategies #FunkyMarketing #leadership #authenticity --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/funky-marketing/message

Tekpon is a software aggregator and lead generation website. Tekpon's purpose is to help individuals and organizations make informed decisions about software products, help them reduce costs, and create a proper, must-needed software stack. Connect with Alexandru

 Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNJI2Tv2yxOLBI02nyJoprA  Learn more about us: https://www.pragmaticinstitute.com/  Start your Product Manager certification here "Disruptive innovation is when a company gets into a new category for them and attempts to engage customers on a different level or via a different set of products." – Will Scott, Product Expert In this episode of Product Chats, Rebecca Kalogeris and Will Scott discuss how businesses can approach and structure their thinking around innovation. They focus on the importance of understanding what problems a business is trying to solve, the outcomes they wish to achieve, and how they plan to grow. Key Takeaways: Takeaway 1: Innovation isn't just about creating something new; it's about understanding the problems your business is trying to solve and the outcomes you want to achieve. Takeaway 2: You can view innovation through different lenses - such as customer needs, market maturity, and your business's growth strategies - to determine the right innovation vector for your business. Takeaway 3: When thinking about innovation, consider the whole ecosystem, not just the product itself. How you package and present your product, as well as how easily customers can interact with your business, can all be avenues for innovation. ABOUT OUR GUEST: Will is a seasoned executive with over 25 years of international experience leading product marketing and management teams across hardware, software, services, and SaaS B2B companies. Originally an engineer by training, Will held senior positions with Cisco, Navisite and Capgemini, along with a range of full-time and fractional CMO positions through his own B2B product management and marketing consulting business. In addition, Will was also previously a partner at the premier product marketing agency, Aventi Group, and an instructor at the Kellogg School of Management in their executive digital marketing and product strategy programs. Learn more about Will and other Pragmatic instructors here. ABOUT PRAGMATIC INSTITUTE: Since 1993, we've provided training and professional development for product, design, and data professionals to accelerate innovation, increase customer satisfaction, and bolster revenue. Through our comprehensive methods and propriety Pragmatic Framework, we train professionals with the skills needed to accelerate their product management and product marketing careers, increase team efficiency, and boost revenue.Our online, in-person, and on-demand courses are taught by industry experts with decades of experience at top companies like Microsoft, Cisco, Dell, Hallmark, Quaker Oats, and Dun & Bradstreet. We offer individual course training in product, design and data, and certification tracks for Product Management Certifications, Product Marketing Certifications, and the Pragmatic Product Master Certification. All attendees gain access to the Pragmatic Alumni Community, a network of over 30,000 alumni worldwide. If you're looking for product management or product marketing training or are pursuing a product marketing certification or product management certification, browse our certification paths at https://www.pragmaticinstitute.com/product/. Courses are available online, in-person, or on-demand to fit your schedule.Want to learn more about becoming a Pragmatic Certified Product Manager? Learn more here. #ProductManagement #ProductManager #ProductManagementCertification #ProductManagementStrategy #PragmaticInstitute

Gotta introduce you to this guy. Chris Ritson, CEO and co-founder of Flexprts, quit the rat race twice, and now helps businesses generate revenue growth through their SDR teams.In this episode Srba and Chris discuss: - the importance of consistency and committing to long-term goals- the difference between a sales managers and a leader- operating systems in sales and the importance of timing triggers in prospecting- what impact a successful Sales HR combo has on hiring great talent- the importance of middle metrics, conversion rates and the power of verbal communicationThrough his bootcamps, Chris and his business partner Lawrence, share their expertise that has led to building and scaling 3x SaaS B2B businesses to $50M+ ARR. - Connect with Chris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-ritson/- Connect with Srba on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/srbamarkovic- Connect with Stefan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefan-conic/---------------------------------------Resources mentioned:- Chris' X profile: https://twitter.com/thechrisritson- Kyle Coleman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyletcoleman/- Kyle's Prospecting Bootcamp: https://pages.clari.com/prospecting-academy.html- Brian LaManna: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlamanna/- Yurii Veremchuk: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yuriiveremchuk/- Lawrence Lanstone, Chris' business partner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurencelangstone/---------------------------------------SDR Hire helps build remote SDR and sales teams. Experienced, trained, near to native, ready to be hired.Listen on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, Google podcast.

In today's fast-paced digital landscape, where every click counts, crafting compelling copy and designing user experiences that resonate with your audience can be the difference between stagnation and skyrocketing success.  For today's episode, Jaryd Krause has invited Chris Silvestri to share his expert advice in copywriting and UX that creates exceptional profits. Chris is the founder and conversion copywriter at Conversion Alchemy, a company specializing in assisting SaaS and ecommerce businesses in converting website visitors into loyal customers. His professional journey has taken him from a background in software engineering in industrial automation to copywriting and UX design at a usability testing startup. As a "conversion alchemist," Chris leverages his diverse skill set to help clients achieve growth and success. They talked about digital psychology. How much work goes into research when creating clever copywriting and user experience? How does Chris separate the research into three different areas? What are they, and why does he do that? They also dive into constructing a homepage that your audience loves and wants to take the next step with you. Why is good copywriting not about fancy words and the actual writing itself? And what good branding can do, examples of good branding and how to use these strategies for yourself? There's so much value in this episode that it's something you definitely won't want to miss. Tune in now!     Episode Highlights 03:27 What is digital psychology?  09:08 The 3 important areas for copywriting and UX research 12:22 Proper implementation of collected data 20:29 CTAs depend on the type of decision makers 34:40 How to be good at copywriting?  37:36 How can businesses set themselves apart from the competition?     Key Takeaways ➥ Chris explains that digital psychology is his branded way of defining his services, aiming to be more specific than traditional copywriting. It involves understanding people, and research is a significant part of it, making up about 70% of his work. He dives deep into understanding the thought processes, decision-making, and knowledge gaps of potential and existing customers, using this research to inform his copywriting work.   ➥ In homepage development and testing, Chris specializes in user-centric strategies. One of his key focuses is on homepage positioning, which begins by addressing the immediate needs and thoughts of visitors, aligning with their intent and concerns. Furthermore, he tailors the placement of Call to Action (CTA) elements based on user types, distinguishing between fast and slow decision-makers. Chris relies on data-driven insights to inform the precise positioning of CTAs. The testing process is divided into several stages, starting with usability testing, an initial phase involving real users to identify usability issues. Wireframes and mockups come into play for early usability testing, and high-fidelity mockups are subjected to further validation. This meticulous approach extends into the development phase, ensuring that the website engages users effectively and guides them seamlessly through their online journey.   ➥ Chris highlights the significance of understanding a client's brand personality and using it consistently in messaging, which builds trust and allows for artistic expression while staying on-brand. They discuss how creativity can set businesses apart, even in perceived "boring" industries like SaaS B2B, by giving them a unique voice and angle on their value proposition.   About The Guest Chris Silvestri is the founder and conversion copywriter at Conversion Alchemy, where they help SaaS and ecommerce businesses convert more of their website visitors into loyal and excited customers. He went from software engineer in industrial automation to copywriter, then to UX designer at a usability testing startup. As a conversion alchemist, he combines everything he learns along the way to help his clients grow. Connect with Chris Silvestri ➥ Website -  https://conversionalchemy.net/ ➥ Newsletter - https://christophersilvestri.com/newsletter/ ➥ Twitter - https://twitter.com/SilvestriChris   Resource Links ➥ Sell your business to us here - https://www.buyingonlinebusinesses.co/sellyourbusiness ➥ Buying Online Businesses Website - https://buyingonlinebusinesses.com ➥ Download the Due Diligence Framework - https://buyingonlinebusinesses.com/freeresources/ ➥ Semrush (SEO tool) - https://bit.ly/3lINGaV➥ Non Agency (SEO Audit) - https://bit.ly/3EPd7OZ ➥ Market Muse (Content Marketing Software) - https://bit.ly/3Me39L0     *This post may contain affiliate links, so we may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on our site/posts at no additional cost to you.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Communities can be super powerful. They carry trends, they generate awareness, and if you play your cards right, they can even significantly affect your overall business growth. Now, communities are far from easy to build. To explore the topic, we invited Alex Theuma, founder of SaaStock a successful community helping SaaS founders and their teams connect via expert conferences around the world. In this episode, we cover: - The origins of SaaStock - How to start a community - How to keep your audience engaged to grow the community - The KPIs of community building - More advice for aspiring community builders - And, as per usual, the Fast Five. So, is community building just a nice to have, or should SaaS B2B companies really try to benefit from it? Answer in episode 102 of the SaaS Growth Hub Podcast, with Alex Theuma, founder of SaaStock.

Pour l'épisode de cette semaine, je reçois Enzo Avigo, cofondateur et CEO de June.so. June.so c'est une solution d'analytics pour les SaaS B2B. C'est la deuxième fois que je reçois Enzo. Le premier épisode était il y a exactement deux ans. L'occasion de faire le point sur tout le chemin parcouru depuis. Au cours de cet épisode, nous avons beaucoup parlé de “go to market” et de positionnement. Enzo et son équipe ont testé de nombreux canaux marketing et il nous fera un retour sur les expérimentations qu'ils ont pu mener. Vous pouvez suivre Enzo sur LinkedIn. Bonne écoute ! _____ Mentionnés pendant l'épisode : L'épisode #20 de SaaS Connection avec Enzo Montre jamais ça a personne avec Orelsan _____ Pour soutenir SaaS Connection en 1 minute⏱ (et 2 secondes) : Abonnez-vous à SaaS Connection sur votre plateforme préférée pour ne rater aucun épisode

Les clients fuient les commerciaux. 70% d'entre eux se disent insatisfaits après un échange. Pendant des années, on a formé les commerciaux à ne s'adresser qu'aux prospects "prêts à signer". Résultat ? Les prospects ne trouvent aucun intérêt de discuter avec un commercial s'il n'est pas fermement décidé à acheter. Les approches, souvent perçues comme peu quali, n'arrangent rien et rend la prospection de plus en plus compliqué. Alors, comment on fait ? J'ai invité Alexandre Brengues, fondateur de Wild Marketer, pour nous aider à performer dans la génération de lead. Son job ? C'est d'aider les équipes commerciales et marketing des SaaS B2B à booker plus de rendez-vous et convertir plus de prospects. Il a accompagné plus d'une centaine d'entreprises (Codingame, Wiglot, Spendesk, Visiotalent, Captain data, Javelo…) à pimper leur cold email et leur landing page. On a parlé de : Pourquoi les commerciaux sont devenu une friction pour les prospects ? Les 3 leviers pour décrocher plus de rendez-vous Des exemples d'approches commerciales concrètes pour générer des leads Besoin de booster votre pipeline pour Q4 ? Cet épisode est rempli d'exemples concrets pour mieux prospecter. Retrouvez Alexandre Brengues sur : Linkedin, c'est là qu'il est le plus actif (et réactif !) La newsletter qui analyse les meilleures landing pages B2B Wild marketer pour rendre infaillible le copywriting de votre SaaS B2B Vous aimez le podcast Vendue et souhaitez le soutenir ? Abonnez-vous au podcast sur votre ⁠plateforme préférée⁠. Laissez un avis sur ⁠Apple Podcast⁠ ou 5 étoiles sur ⁠Spotify⁠ pour faire découvrir le podcast à d'autres personnes. Pour aller plus loin : Abonnez-vous à ⁠la newsletter ⁠Vendue⁠⁠ - 2 X par mois, je décortique une vente que j'ai conclue (ou ratée) et nous la déroulons ensemble, du début à la fin. Laetitia Fall sur ⁠Linkedin⁠ / Twitter / Instagram / Youtube C'est votre dose de culture sales ! Bonne écoute.

Glen Coates is the VP of Product @ Shopify, leading the development of Shopify's core commerce platform. He also oversees the core developer platform and Shopify's partner ecosystem, which includes over 10,000 publicly available apps in the Shopify App Store. Originally a CompSci grad, Glen moved from Sydney to San Diego in 2008 to run US distribution and e-commerce for an Australian eco-products company. In 2010, he attended Columbia Business School for one whole day before quitting to start Handshake, a SaaS B2B e-commerce platform. Glen joined Shopify in May 2019 when the company acquired Handshake. Glen has been in the Vice President role since October 2020. In Today's Episode with Glen Coates We Discuss: 1. From Game Developer in Sydney to Running E-Commerce Warehouse in NYC: How Glen made his way into the world of product and e-commerce having started life as a game developer? Why does Glen believe that the best founders and product people often have their roots in gaming? What does Glen know now that he wishes he had known when he joined Shopify? 2. The Art of Product and Product Management: Is product more an art or a science? If you had to put a number on it, what would it be? What is "product management"? Why can it not be reduced to frameworks? What are "product principles"? How do Shopify use them? How should product teams set them? What makes the very best PMs today? What are the commonalities in them? What is the sign of a poor PM? What would Glen most like to change about the world of PMs? 3. The Art of Product Marketing: What does Glen believe is the true art of product marketing? How did a CEO group teach Glen how to tell truly great stories? How can one tell great stories when you have to cater to multiple different customers/personas? How does Glen evaluate the current state of Shopify's product marketing? 4. Shopify and The Future of Shopify: Why does Glen think it is important for Shopify to have a tops down decision-making process for product strategy? What does Glen believe is the #1 reason why Shopify is such a large and successful company? What is the single hardest element of Glen's role today? How does Glen believe that Shopify will be larger than Amazon in 5-10 years time?

Ep. #4 [THEME SEVEN] I am very excited to republish my interview with Jon Thielen as a way to wrap up our miniseries. Jon is an awesome example of the A-players we’ve been talking about. What better way to understand how to find, pay, and incorporate an A-player than hearing it from one of them! Today’s show is a replay of a conversation I had with Jon, who was hired on to a software company, grew it, and helped the owner sell it just a few years later for 11x EBITDA. In this interview, Jon tells us the story about the process he went through and why the core values of not only the business, but also the owner and founder, are one of the main driving factors that attract A-players. Jon explains why recruiting and building out teams was one of the first things Jon did once being brought on (and his dating approach to this), plus how Jon tied his marketing KPIs to his sales KPIs every single week. To wrap up the interview, Jon tells the story of how the owner approached selling and how Jon executed the plan by selling the company for 11x EBITDA while only staying on for five months after the sale. To hire A-players, you need to know how they think and how they approach the businesses they are working in. Jon does a great job! Enjoy! // WATCH THE INTERVIEW ON YOUTUBE: Intentional Growth™ Podcast What You Will Learn How Jon was sought out by the owner of a software company because of his growth mindset and business philosophy. Why Jon thinks EBITDA is the most important metric. Why Jon always wants to know the owner's core values before accepting a position. Jon’s dating mindset toward onboarding and building teams. How Jon tied his marketing KPIs to his sales KPIs. How Jon structured his bonus compensation plan. Jon’s approach to getting the company ready to sell since the owner wanted to be hands-off with the process. // USE YOUR FINANCIALS TO CLARIFY A PATH TOWARDS A MORE VALUABLE BUSINESS: Intentional Growth Financial Assessment Bio: Jon Thielen is a growth leader who has leveraged the principles of leadership to create accountable teams, operational discipline, and strategic growth strategies. As president, he sold a shareholder’s company for 11x in 2019. Jon Thielen builds scalable SaaS B2B and B2C sales growth strategies, driving revenues, profits, and engaging customer experiences. He has had leadership roles with media, start-ups, and data screening companies such as Trusted Employees, AOL/Patch.com, Internet Marketing, Inc, SanDiego.com and Citysearch.com. His focus is in the sales process, operational discipline, employee engagement, LEAN principles, continuous improvement, accountability, brand strategy, a proven process, and most importantly improving the on-boarding (CX) customer experience. Interview Quotes: 10:02 - “Primarily, I am a revenue-driving executive.” - JT 18:42 - “You can accomplish anything if you put it in front of you.” - JT 23:49 - “If you put incentive plans to change behavior, well, put the right behavior in.” -